On Tue, 12 Sep 1995 gregg @
smtpgate .
Disclosure .
COM wrote:
> Jet - (J.Eric Townsend-jet @
abulafia .
genmagic .
com) writes:
>
> ==> How many MVS systems are plugged directly into the internet? How many
> ==> are actually used for TCP/IP related services? (Where's my Mosaic for
> ==> MVS? :-)
> ==> IMHO, Suns get broken into all the time because:
> ==> -- everybody has one to practice on
> ==> -- they were designed with being useful in mind.
>
> ITEM 1:
>
> ==> IMHO, Suns get broken into all the time because:
> ==> -- everybody has one to practice on
>
> Excuse me?!? MVS has been *in production* since the late 70's; abundantly
> installed around the World. IMHO, plenty of time/opportunity for hackers to
> try hacking in. The reason you don't hear about hackers hacking MVS is
The question then to add is how long has MVS been running with a TCP/IP
stack and supporting connections to the internet.
> because, well, you can't. Much too difficult. In the 9 MVS shops I've worked
> in all were protected by non-hackable security software called ACF2. Perhaps
ACF2 is breakable... I can introduce you to someone who does it on a
regular basis. I am not saying it's easy, but it is not impenetratable.
Yes, it's a well done service for the MVS environment, but it is not
perfect.
> adding your programs to those lists... well, it goes on and on. Now all of
> this isn't to say that someone couldn't write a program to, say, steal raw
> data straight from a disk via TCP/IP. But what thrill is that? Nay, hacking
> MVS (or trying to) is a waste of time.
Can you say "corporate espionage?" The person who I mentioned above
used to be involved with that. It's not a waste of time for those
looking for corporate secrets!
> ITEM 2:
>
> ==> How many MVS systems are plugged directly into the internet? How many
> ==> are actually used for TCP/IP related services?
>
> Mine is. We receive data continously, all day long, via TCP/IP from a third
> party vendor (can't be more specific). I can FTP from my MVS to/from our UNIX.
> I have no idea of how *many* MVS machines there are on the internet, but a
> rough guess would be "alot." And I know that you know, MVS is the core
> backbone for Client Server. Who d'ya think the Server is?
It is??? Since when??
> ==> (Where's my Mosaic for MVS? :-)
>
> It works like this: You download lots of MVS data to your unix/os2/windoze/dos
> whereupon it immediately populates Web pages, Mosaics, (whatever) and you use
> your unix/os2/windoze/dos presentation services (which really beat MVS's) to
> display the data. Bang! Zoom! Real client/server.
Typical batch processing mentality that keeps me in business suggessting
massively parrallel systems to replace mainframe repositories. Real
client server is more than downloading data and kludging a read request.
Mosaic/Netscape and the like get this info in "real time" and display it
as it comes in. Not "down load it, start the reader process and display
it watching this directory for more to come in an populate this
directory." Even M$ SQL Server works better than that!!
> ITEM 3:
>
> ==> IMHO, Suns ...
> ==> -- were designed with being useful in mind.
>
> Now I know you didn't *mean* this the way it sounds. :-) As a 14 year veteran
> of MVS all I can say is, UNIX is the latest and greatest and always will be.
> There simply is *** NO WAY *** a Sun box can match the throughput, data
> capacity, and multi-user capabilities of MVS. Right now there are some 536
> users on my production system alone. We have three test and one development
> partitions that I didn't even check. And the users are doing *real* company
> work. If my MVS crashed (don't worry it won't, never does) the company may as
> well close for the day. Would your company shut down for the day if you lost
> your Sun box?
I wouldn't do it with a Sun either. I would be looking into Pyramid or
Tandon, or someone else. Heck, I'd replace a mainframe with an SGI Onyx
before I would consider a Sun (and I have a lot of gripes with IRIX!).
> I lurk on firewalls to learn; MVS and Unix have their futures tied together.
MVS is dying. There are fewer and fewer jobs out there for MVS people
and many are running scared. As a parttime instructor in a Unix/C
certification program, more than 70% of the students I have taught were
mainframers who either had to learn Unix because their company was
migrating to it or they needed to learn it because the job market it
moving in that direction.
> On the internet, computers are supposed to be "open" to everybody, for free.
Oh yea? Do you see the connection bills?
> Well MVS was never designed to be that way. So the bigdogs want to open up
That's right... and that's the problem with MVS and the internet--the
system wasn't designed for it. And I know for a fact that the system
you are talking about is nearly croaking under it's current TCP/IP load
and cannot support another system making TCP/IP requests without the
addition of specialized hardware. How secure is that hardware,
especially when it's running a TCP/IP stack??
> their systems "like the internet." So they buy Suns to put all the data "on
> the internet." But now they want security. Well they had security. But they
> want to give away the data. But with security. Well, what do they want? We
Give?
I'll leave the rest to private email! :-)
scott barman
--
scott barman DISCLAIMER: I speak to anyone who will listen,
scott @
disclosure .
com and I speak only for myself.
barman @
ix .
netcom .
com
"Micro$oft and Windoze/NT will be the cause of the de-evolution of
network security just as the original PC and BASIC was the cause of
the de-evolution of programming."
References:
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