From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 06:33:57 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA14673; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 06:28:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D44117E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 06:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [136.205.227.85] (HELO msic.dia.mil) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b2) with ESMTP id 853614 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:56:06 -0600 Message-ID: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:54:59 -0600 From: Allan Newsome Reply-To: allan@msic.dia.mil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey Folks, Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of sending email in "Plain Text" format. This is a problem for both users and managers because people using AOL 6.0 will not be able to post messages to majordomo lists. Is there a way for list managers who do not own the server which is running majordomo to be able to avoid the "HTML" problem? How can I make this a non-issue for my subscribers? I've already written AOL but I'm not going to hold my breath for a solution from them. I've also sent an email to my list members letting them know they'll have problems if they upgrade. Allan Newsome From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 07:48:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA15361; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220C017E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA1G04228959; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:00:04 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:02:41 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:54 AM -0600 11/1/00, Allan Newsome wrote: >Is there a way for list managers who do not own the server which is >running majordomo to be able to avoid the "HTML" problem? How can I >make this a non-issue for my subscribers? you can install something like de-mime in front of the lists, to strip everything to just the text part. They ARE doing both an html and text part, not HTML only? (if they are, they and you are hosed) >I've already written AOL but I'm not going to hold my breath for a >solution from them. I've also sent an email to my list members letting >them know they'll have problems if they upgrade. it's out. Too late. Deal with it, the genie's not going back in the bottle. AOL is the 800 pound gorilla. It eats lunch wherver it wants, the rest of us shift around to keep from getting nailed by a peel. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 08:49:02 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA16076; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BE917EB2 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA04994; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:09:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:09:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200011011709.JAA04994@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: allan@msic.dia.mil Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> (message from Allan Newsome on Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:54:59 -0600) Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you very much for the heads up. I just alerted my mailing list subscribers. If I can get to them before they make the decision to upgrade, I have a better chance of keeping 6.0 away from the list. My list is moderated (and currently running majordomo as bestserv bit the dust a month ago). I told my subscribers that I won't put through HTML posts at all. If it's text plus HTML I'll maybe put it through if the text part isn't mangled and I feel like it. And since we're on the subject of majordomo...what's the contact info for that md mailing list again? the one for listowners. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 09:05:13 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA16012; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:36:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 472A317E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 08:36:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (sdn-ar-010casfrMP230.dialsprint.net [158.252.241.232]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12751; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:03:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20001101085929.00c3cd80@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 09:01:53 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil From: SRE Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:54 AM 11/1/00, Allan Newsome wrote: >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. 800 pound gorilla. >This is a problem for both users and managers because people using AOL >6.0 will not be able to post messages to majordomo lists. Sure they will! Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com This script can be installed in the majordomo alias pipe, and not only reduces HTML to formatted plain text, it strips binary attachments and flattens plain text attachments. >Is there a way for list managers who do not own the server which is >running majordomo to be able to avoid the "HTML" problem? How can I >make this a non-issue for my subscribers? I've been using it for many months on a couple dozen lists, without a failure of any kind. LOVE IT! I also put it in the pipe to the server command parser, so HTML does not screw up sub/unsub requests. It's NOT specific to any server software, it just scrubs the email. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 09:20:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA16487; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.gamerz.net (www.gamerz.net [216.181.159.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9A317E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:17:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rrognlie@localhost) by www.gamerz.net (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) id eA1Hic819180; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:44:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:44:38 -0500 From: Richard Rognlie To: Allan Newsome Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <20001101124438.Q17598@gamerz.net> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil>; from allan@msic.dia.mil on Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 08:54:59AM -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is there a way for list managers who do not own the server which is > running majordomo to be able to avoid the "HTML" problem? How can I > make this a non-issue for my subscribers? I have a perl script I hacked together that makes use of a couple MIME:: modules to "demime" a message. Essentually, if a message is sent as multipart/alternative, it will do what you want. my MLM (eSquire) makes use of it for my site... and that functionality will be in the next point release (someday) If the result is still text/html... they're hosed. I imaging we could add a hack to take text/html and run it through lynx (or something) to de-HTML-ify it... Richard -- / \__ | Richard Rognlie / Sendmail Samurai / Gamerz.NET Lackey \__/ \ | http://www.gamerz.net/rrognlie/ / \__/ | Q. What's the difference between Batman and Bill Gates? \__/ | A. When Batman fought the Penguin, he won. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 09:51:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA16866; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:45:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F97617EB4 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id eA1ICF401497; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:12:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:12:15 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: allan@msic.dia.mil, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <20001101131215.B74368@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Nov 01, 2000 at 08:02:41AM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > you can install something like de-mime in front of the lists, to > strip everything to just the text part. They ARE doing both an html > and text part, not HTML only? (if they are, they and you are hosed) It should be possible (if worst comes to even more horrible) to render HTML to plain text as it goes through the list. I believe that Listar has such an option, for example. > it's out. Too late. Deal with it, the genie's not going back in the > bottle. AOL is the 800 pound gorilla. It eats lunch wherver it wants, > the rest of us shift around to keep from getting nailed by a peel. Well, at least we agree on something. :-) -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 10:35:12 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA17319; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:27:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0DA17E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 10:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id MAA14742 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:54:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:54:24 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/1/00 8:54 AM, Allan Newsome wrote... >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. What HTML are you seeing? I never get any when I use AOL 6, but I don't use any unusual fonts or formatting. That may be the culprit. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 12:20:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA18468; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:13:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparta.com (unknown [157.185.61.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BAF17E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:13:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lancaster.sparta.com (lancaster.sparta.com [157.185.12.3]) by sparta.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA32745 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:38:29 -0600 Received: from bobc.qnet.com (pcbobc.lancaster.sparta.com [157.185.12.39]) by lancaster.sparta.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA26653 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:06:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001101115728.00aa35a0@av.qnet.com> X-Sender: robertc@av.qnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 11:58:20 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert Comperini Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: <20001101131215.B74368@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aw Geeze... All this time I thought the world revolved around Micro$oft... now we find out it revolves around AOL ;) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 13:06:28 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA18875; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9629E17E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [136.205.227.85] (HELO msic.dia.mil) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b2) with ESMTP id 854212 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:20:03 -0600 Message-ID: <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 15:18:56 -0600 From: Allan Newsome Reply-To: allan@msic.dia.mil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) References: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of > >sending email in "Plain Text" format. > > What HTML are you seeing? I never get any when I use AOL 6, but I don't > use any unusual fonts or formatting. That may be the culprit. I have been seeing: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; And the second part of the email has the "html" content: Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That shows up using AOL 6.0 with no special characters, fonts, formatting or anything else that would cause it to become "html". AOL 5.0 didn't give us this problem and the only time you're likely to notice it is if you send to a majordomo mailing list. Most email tools would never even blink and they would display the email with no problem. One thing I don't think most of you picked up on is that I am the owner of the list and I run the list but I do not own the servers the list runs on so I don't have root access to be able to install and run Demime. Am I miss understanding or can users with ftp access to their cgi-bin use Demime? I don't think I/they can....let me know if I'm wrong. Allan Newsome http://mayberry.com/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 14:35:12 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA19963; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:26:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from goliath.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.252.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE6117E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 14:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from crudpuppy.vo.cnchost.com ([208.37.12.181]) by goliath.cnchost.com id RAA27924; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:53:42 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001101144942.00c3f750@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 14:53:00 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: [nanook@eskimo.com: Netzero.Net Cause Mail Problems] In-Reply-To: <20001030183902.B12186@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 03:39 PM 10/30/00, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >Spotted this on Usenet -- haven't seen this myself yet, but I've only >got a handful of netzero.net folks on my lists, all of whom (I believe) >are actively reading their mail. > >---Rsk > >----- Forwarded message from Robert Dinse ----- > >> From: Robert Dinse >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 05:46:07 -0700 >> Subject: Netzero.Net Cause Mail Problems >> Newsgroups: lobby,announcements,news.admin.net-abuse.email >> >> >> Netzero has apparently implimented a brilliant policy of bouncing e-mail >> that sits in a netzero mailbox for more than six months. An anonymous source tells me: We aren't allowed to delete the userid's that are inactive > 6 months, and the backend storage is near capacity. We are clearing space to make room for the FreeI users we are getting. The only way we can do it under the current Terms of Service is to bounce back. The Terms of Service are being updated to allows us to wipe email > 6 months old. So this is apparently a temporary problem that will be resolved shortly as they get additional storage capacity, and resolved permanently when they rewrite the TOS giving them better capability to wipe stale email or bounce email when the customer has reached a given storage capacity. jc From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 15:05:51 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA20404; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D78C17EB2 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-173.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.173]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21862 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:32:01 -0600 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:30:31 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> In-reply-to: <4.3.1.0.20001101085929.00c3cd80@pop.climber.org> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 1 Nov 2000, 9:01, SRE wrote: > >This is a problem for both users and managers because people using AOL > >6.0 will not be able to post messages to majordomo lists. > > Sure they will! Not on my lists. I taboo-bounce HTML messages. > Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html > Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable > Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf > Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com With Demime, the subscribers would continue to happily and merrily send email using HTML, both on my lists and all over the Internet. On my lists, my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email. I would not be able to get over my point to them with Demime. If they want to participate in my lists, they have to do so with ASCII text. And Gorillas? Just because the world has gorillas, does not mean you have to invite them into your living room. Alan ASHandRR@ASHLists.org From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 15:50:17 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA20987; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A9C17EB0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.17] (ip17.proper.com [165.227.249.17]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14195; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:07:54 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> References: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:14:14 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:18 PM -0600 11/1/00, Allan Newsome wrote: >I have been seeing: > >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >And the second part of the email has the "html" content: > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If the plain text is the first part, then Majordomo (or any other MLM that can't handle HTML in the control messages) should have no problems. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:05:23 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA20997; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E778517EB0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.202] (A17-216-27-202.apple.com [17.216.27.202]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eA20FD626038; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:13 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:30 -0800 To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:30 PM -0600 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >On my >lists, my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email. and do you tell them to use only a black and white TV, to? Crank their Model A? churn their own butter after milking their cow? You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. All you're really going to do down the road is convince folks to not bother with your lists, except your own increasingly limited brotherhood of already-convinced like-thinkers. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:20:25 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA21337; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD1717E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id eA20gZR15195 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:42:35 -0800 (PST) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > And Gorillas? Just because the world has gorillas, does not mean you > have to invite them into your living room. How nice for you. Most of us don't have the luxury of picking which MUA's we're willing to accept mail from. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:35:38 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA20908; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:39:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7A817E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id QAA09835; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:06:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:06:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200011020006.QAA09835@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: adamb@lull.org Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> (message from Adam Bailey on Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:54:24 -0600) Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:54:24 -0600 From: Adam Bailey On 11/1/00 8:54 AM, Allan Newsome wrote... >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. What HTML are you seeing? I never get any when I use AOL 6, but I don't use any unusual fonts or formatting. That may be the culprit. I just got email from a friend of mine using AOL 6.0 who swears it's not HTML mail and comes through fine when she mails to her non-AOL account. So it must be fairly minimal HTML. But trust me it is HTML. Here's a copy. I removed identifying info and munged the command . From: address@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:48:19 EST Subject: testing aol mail To: cnorman@best.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_78.c012f5a.2731f7b3_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: Unknown sub 33 --part1_78.c012f5a.2731f7b3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this came thru to my other account nice enough w/o html tags, and i'm on aol6.0... have been for months [her name and sig deleted] --part1_78.c012f5a.2731f7b3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this came thru to my other account nice enough w/o html tags, and i'm on
aol6.0... have been for months

her name

Line one of her sig
Line two of her sig
--part1_78.c012f5a.2731f7b3_boundary-- From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:50:16 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA21091; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:54:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECAA617EB0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (sdn-ar-014casfrMP084.dialsprint.net [158.252.218.86]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05123; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:20:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20001101160546.00ca66b0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 16:17:33 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil From: SRE Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> References: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:18 PM 11/1/00, Allan Newsome wrote: >One thing I don't think most of you picked up on is that I am the >owner of the list and I run the list but I do not own the servers the >list runs on so I don't have root access to be able to install and run >Demime. That's a problem. Perhaps the owner of the system would agree to do it if you pointed out that NOT distributing thousands of bulky HTML files to the entire list would really help system performance! >Am I miss understanding or can users with ftp access to their >cgi-bin use Demime? I don't think I/they can....let me know if I'm wrong. You need to be able to run demime SOMEWHERE, not necessarily on the same system as the server. Do you have access to email aliases? Can you change the ones used by your list server? If so, change the server and list posting aliases to point at addresses that can run demime, on the same host or not, then have that address pipe its output to another alias that feeds the server software. Did that make sense? Here's a sample sendmail alias for Mj2, probably the details are different for 1.9x or other software: majordomo: "|/usr/local/bin/perl -wT /usr/local/demime/demime.pl lists@XXX.org" lists: "|/usr/local/majordomo/bin/mj_enqueue -m -d XXX.org" Sending mail to "majordomo@XXX.org" runs demime, demime sends mail to "lists@XXX.org" where it is processed for server commands. Note that majordomo@XXX.org could point to an address on another host, and THAT address could run demime and send results back to lists@XXX.org. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 17:05:18 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA21626; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DDD17E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:47:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-173.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.173]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA10490 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:15:39 -0600 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:14:08 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 1 Nov 2000, 16:15, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > and do you tell them to use only a black and white TV, to? Nope. > Crank their Model A? Nope. > churn their own butter after milking their cow? Nope. > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this battle. Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in mailing lists. This is not about stifling progress, Chuq, as you alluded with your questions, but rather making sure that free discussion is not abated. HTML stifles free discussion because it inhibits some members of a discussion group to participate freely in the ongoing discussion. The losers in this battle are those who gave up or those who succumb to the lure of commercial brainwashing. As long as you can keep fighting, you have not lost. As long as I have the tools to keep HTML-mail and HTML-mail-users off my list, then I can continue to win. As long as those whom I have influence over continue to see the logic in my message, then I will never feel I've lost. > All you're really going to do down the road is convince folks to not > bother with your lists, except your own increasingly limited > brotherhood of already-convinced like-thinkers. That remains to be seen, but so far I've not encountered any problems with my posture. If anything, my "brotherhood" as you call it, is generally accepted by those that associate with me on the Internet. Alan ashandrr@mastnet.net From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 17:20:21 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA21207; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ripco.com (pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA9217E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eA20THP12163 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:29:17 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <200011020029.eA20THP12163@ripco.com> Subject: Re: [nanook@eskimo.com: Netzero.Net Cause Mail Problems] Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:29:17 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <20001030183902.B12186@gsp.org> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Oct 30, 2000 06:39:02 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec quoted a Usenet post by Robert Dinse: D> Netzero has apparently implimented a brilliant policy of bouncing e-mail D> that sits in a netzero mailbox for more than six months. D> This caused severe problems this morning as mail from a list was all D> returned by netzero enmasse ... Michael Johnson responded, J> If I understand NetZero's error messages correctly, they successfully J> delivered mail to a user who decided not to read it. Not exactly (though the misunderstanding is NetZero's fault for saying "sat unread in the mailbox" and not the fault of Michael's reading). NetZero does not provide a webmail interface; you have to get your mail by POP3. There- fore they see the situation as their having successfully accepted mail for a downstream system, but the message will be deemed delivered only when the downstream system polls them to pick it up. Thus they consider this a fail- ure to complete delivery that requires an NDN. Suppose a domain gets its mail through an MX host; if mail for an address in that domain reaches the MX host but the end system has not picked it up, is it not undelivered? Shouldn't the MX host bounce it to the sender if the end system doesn't pick it up within a reasonable amount of time? If NetZero offered webmail as well as POP3 or instead of it, then the message would be available to the end recipient by means other than a mail transport protocol, and it could be considered delivered when it reached NetZero, and the customer's neglecting to read it would not justify a bounce. J> I don't expect to receive any error messages regarding successfully J> delivered e-mail. In NetZero's view, the mail was not delivered successfully. The NDN really should have said that the message sat unfetched in the customer's mail queue, not that it sat unread in the mailbox. Tim Pierce wrote, P> Our list managers are getting thousands of them at a pop. P> We do consider it a serious problem, and I am sorely tempted to block the P> domain until they fix it. The flood was caused by their first implementing the policy and returning at once all unfetched messages from the inception of NetZero until six months before the torrent. On a list for NetZero users where several NetZero em- ployees post, one of the latter said that henceforth mailboxes would be cleared of old unfetched mail at intervals no greater than two weeks, so there should be no repetitions of that initial downpour. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 18:05:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA22512; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:03:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.vnet.net (smtp3.vnet.net [166.82.1.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95C8717E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp3.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA22TxZ25935; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA28949; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:29:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:29:58 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: ASHandRR@mastnet.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long > lost. All you're really going to do down the road is convince > folks to not bother with your lists, except your own > increasingly limited brotherhood of already-convinced > like-thinkers. They said radio would kill off newspapers 75yrs ago. The validity of ASCII-only depends on the style, content and intrinsic value of the list in question Chuq. I only accept ASCII and I don't anticipate changing in the near future. If people start to bail, complain in large numbers or another list on the same topic uses HTML and attracts a significant number of subscribers, I'll consider a change. Until then, my experience says ASCII is fine for what I do. I have no objection to other lists accommodating HTML or any other format the admin chooses to allow. Just don't try and tell me ASCII is dead. It works for me. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:05:35 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA23097; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (ikkoku.maison-otaku.net [64.38.150.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08EF017E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:56:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from kludge (kludge.noderunner.net [64.38.150.70]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 4C883AF82A for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:41:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> From: "Rachel Blackman" To: References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:28:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. > > Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this > battle. Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of > keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to > this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for > email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in > mailing lists. This is not about stifling progress, Chuq, as you > alluded with your questions, but rather making sure that free > discussion is not abated. HTML stifles free discussion because it > inhibits some members of a discussion group to participate freely in > the ongoing discussion. I didn't read Chuq's argument as saying that progress was being stifled... just that people /will/ move on, and eventually, people will either find that remaining behind is crippling to them or be forced to move on as well. What you say about HTML stifling free discussion because it inhibits members from participating reminds me an awful lot about what I read in a history book about people saying about the telephone when it first came out... that it was 'elitist' and that 'people who don't have this newfangled thing can no longer communicate with their friends, why don't people just stick to postal mail?' While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense and is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet are being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of communicating. Doubtless, the people who wanted the phone left behind had /good/ reasons for it - there's something nice about a handwritten letter which can be kept and treasured, and shown to descendants, and letters can often be more deep, and thought-out. Especially in those early days when most phone calls were just to enjoy the novelty of it, much like how HTML e-mail is often used these days. ("Hey, look! I can send CoLoR and FOnTs! And !") While it's nice to take the attitude that 'we were here first, the Internet should run the way we want it to', it won't happen. All doing things like making mailing list software not function with HTML e-mail does is annoy users and make them go use some other, flashier, Microsoft-written mailing list product or something. ;) Now, I'm not saying HTML should be embraced, but things like demime are a good idea; it makes existing technology coexist with new technology. Simply saying 'HTML e-mail is bad and should be banned' as I've heard many people, including a number of my own friends, say may be idealistically sound, but it's also unrealistic in expectation. HTML e-mail is, like it or not, probably here to stay, and it's likely only going to grow. I, for one, am just glad they went with HTML and not something like RTF, which would've been far harder to parse. :) --R From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:20:13 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA23343; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD41317E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id VAA24646 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:38:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011020338.VAA24646@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:38:36 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/1/00 3:18 PM, Allan Newsome wrote... >>> Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >>> sending email in "Plain Text" format. >> >> What HTML are you seeing? I never get any when I use AOL 6, but I don't >> use any unusual fonts or formatting. That may be the culprit. > >I have been seeing: > >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > >And the second part of the email has the "html" content: > >Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >That shows up using AOL 6.0 with no special characters, fonts, >formatting or anything else that would cause it to become "html" The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default, which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back to the defalt. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 19:35:14 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA23420; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:20:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8860917EB0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA23iv221261; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:44:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:45:12 -0800 To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:14 PM -0600 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > > You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. > >Sez you. In my little corner of the Internet, I am winning this >battle. I wish you luck then. you and the buggy whip manufacturers. I hope you get what you want out of this. But what I've found when you fight these things instead of deal with them is that you get an increasingly inbred, shrinking population of the same old pharts, because everyone who might be new blood looks and then goes elsewhere. And unless you're looking for what you aren't getting, you don't notice. Now, if all you want is to cater to the same old crew as they die off one by one without being replaced, great... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:20:13 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23883; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B70817E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA24Zo222677; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:35:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:23:06 -0800 To: "Rachel Blackman" , From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:28 PM -0800 11/1/00, Rachel Blackman wrote: >I didn't read Chuq's argument as saying that progress was being stifled... >just that people /will/ move on, and eventually, people will either find >that remaining behind is crippling to them or be forced to move on as well. Thanks, RAchel, for saying what I tried to say. if you put hurdles in front of your potential members, you'll get a few, but mostly, they'll go find someone who doesn't and use their service instead. That's okay if you don't WANT new members, or only want some pre-defined vision of what a "good" member is, but it's a way to cause your user base to stagnate and shrivel. I'm not even saying you have to support stuff -- just deal with it rationally. And slapping users for something that's not under their control isn't dealing with it rationally. Demime is a perfectly good alternative. Saying "turn off that stuff or else" isn't. I know this from experience, and once I realized what was happening it was a real eye opener. This is no longer a place where you are The Only Source For Your Thing, and even if you are, you're 30 seconds from having a new competitor at egroups. And egroups is a lot easier for most users to find. And if that's okay with you, great -- but it's the same as the guy who decided to keep making buggy whips when the car was invented. You might keep right on making buggy whips for a long time, but your clientele will shrink, age and slowly die off, until you do, too. And AOL going "no text" isn't just inventing the car, it's waking up one morning to the interstate highway system.... And here's another note. We've done formal user surveys, professionally done. And they've shown, quite clearly, that 70-80% want HTML e-mail. If you think the users don't want this stuff, you're fooling yourself. I enjoy my DVD's of the 60's Avengers in black and white, but I don't pretend that's how TV ought to be today... But this argument isn't new to the list, and the buggy whip cabal will continue to insist on making buggy whips and if they're happy, that's fine. But let's not pretend that 1995 was the epitome of e-mail systems and it's all been downhill from there.... >While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense and >is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet are >being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of communicating. I was convinced the day my mom asked for help setting up her buddy list, so they could IM to each other.... When 75 year old women are adopting all this stuff, you can't pretend it's a fad. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:35:14 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23971; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 85D0117E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8417 invoked by uid 50); 2 Nov 2000 04:49:00 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> In-Reply-To: "Rachel Blackman"'s message of "Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:28:00 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 01 Nov 2000 20:48:59 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 30 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rachel Blackman writes: > While I /personally/ happen to think plaintext e-mail makes more sense > and is friendlier overall, the vast numbers of new users of the Internet > are being introduced to e-mail as a bright, colorful way of > communicating. Doubtless, the people who wanted the phone left behind > had /good/ reasons for it - there's something nice about a handwritten > letter which can be kept and treasured, and shown to descendants, and > letters can often be more deep, and thought-out. And notice that we still have both, in different areas, for different purposes. But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the telephone. I've seen a lot of people who like the idea of bright, colorful e-mail, until they've read their fourth letter of bright purple on dark green, and then they're a bit tired of it. One of the problem with HTML e-mail is that it puts you at the mercy of other people's layout sense and most people are abominably bad at laying out text, one of the first things that most books that teach TeX or LaTeX try to correctly pound into your head. Insofar as HTML or other marked-up e-mail has real advantages over plain text, it will eventually catch on over plain text in those areas. And that's just as it should be. So far, I've not seen much to be "worried" about in terms of superiority of HTML over plain text; I have actually encountered one newsletter that I prefer to read in HTML, and for the rest the HTML is substanially less readable than plain text would have been. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:52:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23985; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67A8A17E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (sdn-ar-008casfrMP226.dialsprint.net [158.252.215.228]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25753; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:50:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20001101203443.00c33140@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:40:58 -0800 To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net From: SRE Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> References: <4.3.1.0.20001101085929.00c3cd80@pop.climber.org> <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:30 PM 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >the subscribers would continue to happily and merrily send >email using HTML, both on my lists and all over the Internet That's "what is". >my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email That's "what should be", in your reality. I'm afraid the global reality is different, but either way many people don't want to be "taught", and will simply stop posting or leave the list. I'm not criticizing your point of view, mine used to be the same. I figured it took less time in the long run to teach every Outlook user how to turn off text formatting than it did to send majordomo commands for them. I was wrong, because many of them NEVER learned. >Listowners who have apprenticed under me know the value of >keeping a discussion mailing list "text only," and follow in step to >this doctrine. ASCII text is the only egalitarian method we have for >email and that is paramount for free and unencumbered discussion in >mailing lists. That's not the question. The question is whether you can allow some people to post one way and some to post another, while DISTRIBUTING only plain text. Who cares what mail tool they use to send it? Who cares whether that mail tool sticks in stuff if you can easily remove it? Is it a vendetta against HTML, or are you really just trying to keep your list output clean? In the end, I chose to enable them rather than disable people, and my overall workload has dropped dramatically. No more command parser errors to explain. No more adding and removing people who can't configure their mail tool. That's what is. SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 21:05:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA24331; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:02:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E5817E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id eA25TUk21916 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:29:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Adam Bailey Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: <200011020338.VAA24646@mail.xnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default, > which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back > to the defalt. I sent myself a message simply by clicking the "Write" icon, adding my non-AOL address, and one word each of sucject and body. This is what I got: >From rogerk@queernet.org Wed Nov 1 21:08:09 2000 -0800 Status: R X-Status: X-Keywords: Return-Path: Received: from dorothy.queernet.org (root@dorothy.queernet.org [209.157.101.254]) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id eA2589d21591; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:08:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by dorothy.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta12/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id eA2588427211; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from QNetter@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v28.32.) id l.ba.cfddc01 (9823) for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:06:25 -0500 (EST) From: QNetter@aol.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:06:25 EST Subject: foo To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_ba.cfddc01.27325051_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: Unknown sub 10032 --part1_ba.cfddc01.27325051_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit foo --part1_ba.cfddc01.27325051_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit foo --part1_ba.cfddc01.27325051_boundary-- -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 21:51:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA24765; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:41:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C90817E8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA265W225420; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:05:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:07:03 -0800 To: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:48 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote: >But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the telephone. no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl records -> CD. you can argue all you want that LPs are better tahn CD's, and audiophiles still do, but unless you're an audiophile, nobody cares. and on the internet, you can talk all you want about plain text, but the reality is, it's rapidly turning into the LP of the e-mail world. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 22:05:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA25031; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7947717E8C for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:01:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8849 invoked by uid 50); 2 Nov 2000 06:28:39 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:07:03 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 01 Nov 2000 22:28:38 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 37 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 8:48 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote: >> But I hardly think that HTML e-mail is as revolutionary as the >> telephone. > no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl records > -> CD. Sorry, Chuq, but I don't believe that either. :) My plain text e-mail is in very nice color, highlighting important information, without any markup put in by the sender at all. This would be true if there were no way of doing that before HTML, but that's false. I have a mail reader that lets me read mail in HTML quite easily and well, including inlined graphics. I receive both types of mail on a regular basis. By and large the plain text mail is more readable because I know what information is important to *me* and therefore have my mail reader configured to correctly highlight that information, and the presentation skills of the people who write the HTML is abominable. There are occasional exceptions, where people put real effort into making a nice presentation in HTML e-mail, and in those particular cases I like the results. I don't expect to see this happen for discussions for the simple reason that it's too much work to do it well and if not done well, it looks worse than if you just don't do it at all. This is independent of markup language; this is just a general fact about adding markup to text via any mechanism. While you're going on about the future of technology, I'm looking at the *actual capabilities of the technology* and going "sure, that's cool in some situations, but this is hardly revolutionary stuff." -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 23:05:13 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA25487; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D0017EB0 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eA27Ku227471; Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:20:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 23:23:37 -0800 To: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:28 PM -0800 11/1/00, Russ Allbery wrote: > > no, but it is as significant as black&white -> color TV, or vinyl records >> -> CD. > >Sorry, Chuq, but I don't believe that either. :) time will prove one of us right... The rest is speculation and posturing (except me. I never posture.. grin) >While you're going on about the future of technology, I'm looking at the >*actual capabilities of the technology* and going "sure, that's cool in >some situations, but this is hardly revolutionary stuff." funny, I feel like saying the same about you, but... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 04:50:19 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA02034; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 04:36:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from domains.invweb.net (domains.invweb.net [198.182.196.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BBB17E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 04:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from whgiii (root@openpgp.net [199.184.252.29]) by domains.invweb.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15074; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:02:58 -0500 Message-Id: <200011021302.IAA15074@domains.invweb.net> From: "William H. Geiger III" Reply-To: "William H. Geiger III" Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 06:58:54 -0500 To: Allan Newsome In-Reply-To: <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v2.2a/20 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil>, on 11/01/00 at 03:18 PM, Allan Newsome said: >One thing I don't think most of you picked up on is that I am the owner >of the list and I run the list but I do not own the servers the list runs >on so I don't have root access to be able to install and run Demime. Am >I miss understanding or can users with ftp access to their cgi-bin use >Demime? I don't think I/they can....let me know if I'm wrong. You need to get a better shell account. :) The shell account I have allows me to telnet into the machine and do prety much anything I want within the confines of my user rights & quota. Find out if your account is running procmail. For those who don't know procmail is a *nix mail filtering program. It is used to process incomming mail before it is delivered. You can run DeMIME from procmail, it will convert the message before it is sent to majordomo. -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Data Security & Cryptology Consulting Programming, Networking, Analysis PGP for OS/2: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html E-Secure: http://www.openpgp.net/esecure.html --------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 05:05:55 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA02300; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:00:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5844117E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl_120w70 [151.202.20.126]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eA2DRCI57560 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:27:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 08:27:11 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML based email Message-ID: <2491022113.973153631@[192.168.1.101]> In-Reply-To: <200011020900.BAA26962@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All I know is that when clarity of communication is MOST important, as it is on a functional list like this one, we do it in plain text without giving it a second thought. HTML and rich-text email is prevalent for the solitary reason that some client software vendors started distributing software that enables it by default. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 05:35:39 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA02471; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [160.91.68.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9954717E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 05:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1682087 invoked by uid 3995); 2 Nov 2000 13:50:54 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14849.28990.751161.703409@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:50:54 -0500 From: Dave Sill To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) In-Reply-To: References: <200011011854.MAA14742@mail.xnet.com> <3A0088C0.63BD1E90@msic.dia.mil> X-Mailer: VM 6.76 under 21.1 "20 Minutes to Nikko" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >If the plain text is the first part, then Majordomo (or any other MLM >that can't handle HTML in the control messages) should have no >problems. Sure it will. The first lines of the message will be MIME junk that Majordomo doesn't understand, e.g.: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3054648371_239913_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit subscribe alpha-osf-managers --MS_Mac_OE_3054648371_239913_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable etc. -Dave From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 08:05:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA04146; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:56:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29BE517E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id KAA04079 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:23:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011021623.KAA04079@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:24:00 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/1/00 11:29 PM, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote... >On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: >> The formatting is there. People are using fonts other than the default, >> which AOL 6 decides is their intention to use HTML. Have them switch back >> to the defalt. > >I sent myself a message simply by clicking the "Write" icon, adding my >non-AOL address, and one word each of sucject and body. This is what I >got: Yes, I was wrong. I'm sorry for the confusion. For several months I tested AOL 6 specifically on the HTML mail issue, until I could confirm that it was *not* sending any, only receiving it. Then AOL apparently decided I need to be made to look the fool, and changed this behavior in later revisions. I apologize, and share the opinion of those on this list that think that AOL has made a very stupid move. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 12:35:48 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06834; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 19E2F17EB3 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa22244 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:47:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 02 Nov 00 13:01:14 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:55:20 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > Now, if all you want is to cater to the same old crew as they die off > one by one without being replaced, great... I for one would like to know about this Finishing School for HTML (Horrid Toys Muddle Language) Denial. What's the topic, how many subscribers? And would he employ exactly the same methodogoly against, say, a recently-reunitied alumnus association from a small southern community which to a member recalls the days when you had to give the number to the operator to complete a voice call way back before it was called a voice call? tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 12:50:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06913; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:28:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from bertha.au.csc.net (bertha.au.csc.net [203.0.101.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C3A17E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:28:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from c3w-fwb (c3w-fwb [203.0.101.98]) by bertha.au.csc.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA17625 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:50:33 +1100 (EST) From: peter.abma@immi.gov.au Received: from c3w-notes ([20.18.100.39]) by C3W-FWB.au.csc.net; Fri, 03 Nov 2000 07:51:26 +0000 (EST) Received: from immcbrn1.immi.gov.au ([164.97.95.58]) by C3W-NOTES.AU.CSC.NET (Lotus Domino Release 5.0.3 (Intl)) with SMTP id 2000110308480870:32028 ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:48:08 +1100 Received: by immcbrn1.immi.gov.au(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 4A25698B.00786ADC ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:55:16 +1000 X-Lotus-FromDomain: IMMI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: <4A25698B.00786A6F.00@immcbrn1.immi.gov.au> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:52:30 +1000 Subject: LEAVE Mime-Version: 1.0 X-MIMETrack: Itemize by SMTP Server on C3External/C3X(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 03/11/2000 08:48:08 AM, Serialize by Router on C3External/C3X(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 03/11/2000 08:48:09 AM, Serialize complete at 03/11/2000 08:48:09 AM Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk LEAVE *************************** Important Warning! *************************** This electronic communication (including any attached files) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only intended for the use of the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you do not have permission to read, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or retain any part of this communication or its attachments in any form. If this e-mail was sent to you by mistake, please take the time to notify the sender so that they can identify the problem and avoid any more mistakes in sending e-mail to you. The unauthorised use of information contained in this communication or its attachments may result in legal action against any person who uses it. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 13:05:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06835; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A7BA717E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:19:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa22228 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:54:02 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 02 Nov 00 12:13:14 PST In-Reply-To: <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oh, is it Historical Precedent Time? After Marilyn poled down that river in 3-D, conventional wisdom held that a movie patron after about 1958 had just better become accustomed to those funny little cardboard bi-colored glasses if he wanted to ever see a movie again. And there were always the purists who held out for the Old Way. Chaplin did City Lights as a silent a decade and a half after sound became prominent. But, like any school of fish, a phalanx will eventually bring the whole troop along. Sound did happen for movies, color came to TV, and HTML comes online. My list came online in 1992, and we still run straight ASCII through it. At one time, there was resistence against a web presence. One egalitarian soul among us proclaimed, what of the poor among us, who cannot afford Web access, but must feed among us as they are able with scraps and Juno? He was convinced when free net hookups went in at the public library. And today we have freemail accounts which support HTML. Anybody can go to Yahoo and see color and big fonts without spending a dime. I'm not sure how long the rearguard action serves any purpose. It sounds like an S&M scene. You will obey my dictum or suffer the consequences. To me, this shows more respect for the mechanism than the public it's supposedly set up to serve. Were I to employ such draconian drama to one of the lists I operate, I would fluster and foil every member. They're old, like me, and they don't understand, and nobody will be able to educate them all. We find we can tolerate the odd HTML smear quite well in that particular unit. And I clean it out of the other list by hand. Because I care more for the participation than the rules of engagement, which can be sometimes very disengaging if overstressed. That's the secret to the differences of opinions I see here. Some have large groups of relatively sophisticated users and they don't mind offending a minority of them to uphold appearances. It's like requiring an ascot at the club. You can do that for the Ritz Carlton Old Boys, but not for a smalltown Kiwanis with a declining membership. -- An Ann Landers letter one year: "Oh, Ann, a panhandler approached me this morning, what would you do?" Ann replied with a detailed intenerary - she would take the bum to a restaurant, see him seated, and, to prevent her contribution going to crack, pay the maitre 'd. It was hilarious. Ann Landers spends no time on the street. She thinks a panhandler is extremely rare. Likewise, some guides give us extensive advice about how to handle instances of spam, each single occurance requiring about fourteen hours work. And some would spend their time stamping out the dread smear of HTML on mailing lists. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 15:35:21 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA09798; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E63617E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id RAA23522 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:58:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011022358.RAA23522@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: LEAVE Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:58:40 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote... >LEAVE > > > >*************************** >Important Warning! >*************************** >This electronic communication (including any attached files) may contain >confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only intended >for the use of the person to whom it is addressed. Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was confidential? From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 18:04:51 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA12144; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from radiushou.trip.net (ns2.qaccess.net [216.89.32.195]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C047117E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 0d8xk (ppp-162.lake-jackson.mastnet.net [206.66.213.162]) by radiushou.trip.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28038 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:13:40 -0600 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:12:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: LEAVE Reply-To: ASHandRR@mastnet.net Message-ID: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> In-reply-to: <200011022358.RAA23522@mail.xnet.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Nov 2000, 17:58, Adam Bailey wrote: > On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote... > > >LEAVE > > > > > > > >*************************** > >Important Warning! > >*************************** > >This electronic communication (including any attached files) may > >contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only > >intended for the use of the person to whom it is addressed. > > Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was > confidential? I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on every outgoing message and he had no control over it. Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise. I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider bouncing those messages. Alan ASHandRR@MASTNET.net From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 19:35:46 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA13708; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:24:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3975D17E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id eA33pxP34133; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:51:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:51:59 -0500 From: Tim Pierce To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LEAVE Message-ID: <20001102225159.P74368@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <200011022358.RAA23522@mail.xnet.com> <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.7us In-Reply-To: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > > > >*************************** > > >Important Warning! > > >*************************** > > >This electronic communication (including any attached files) may > > >contain confidential and/or legally privileged information and is only > > >intended for the use of the person to whom it is addressed. > > I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my > lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on > every outgoing message and he had no control over it. We haven't yet deliberately blocked mail with these notices, but sometimes they trigger our spam filters (wording like "if this mail has been sent in error...") or are rejected for similar reasons, and I find myself completely uninterested in accommodating them. It is still tempting to block them. It is even conceivable that, should such a user accidentally send something confidential to one of our lists, the company could try to hold us liable for any damages they claim to suffer. In general I suggest to these users that they subscribe from a home account or some other address that is not subject to their employers' control. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb.com lead system admonsterator and Chief Hacking Officer From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 21:20:25 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA14856; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.vjs.org (unknown [216.203.4.199]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4F017E8B for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.250] (192.168.0.250) by mail.vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:45:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> References: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.8 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:45:09 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: LEAVE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 20:12 -0600 11/02/2000, Alan S. Harrell said: >On 2 Nov 2000, 17:58, Adam Bailey wrote: > > On 11/2/00 3:52 PM, peter.abma@immi.gov.au wrote... > > > > >LEAVE Parents didn't raise you right, did they, Peter? > > Does that mean I can't make fun of this guy because his message was > > confidential? We appear to have been the intended recipients (?), so it looks like it's fair game. >I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my >lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on >every outgoing message and he had no control over it. Yep, I can confirm that there are employers who do that. Law firms appear to be especially fond of the practice (law firms doing something utterly inane; imagine that). >Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the >humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise. If it shuts down the to-HTML-or-not-to-HTML thread, I'm all for it. Might even consider getting Pete back on the list, just so he can leave every time another rhetorical topic comes up. Speaking of which, anyone have the URL for the reply-to-munging-considered-life-threatening page? I was describing it to a particular list server developer, and he didn't believe that the page was for real. I want him to see for himself. >I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider >bouncing those messages. IMO, you'd be setting the bar for entry a little high. I try to tune the filters to block only those things that the user has control over -- such as long signatures (of the voluntary variety) and poor quoting practices. But to each his own. After all, there's a reason that there are many different lists -- and many different list owners. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Got Bounces? vince@vjs.org Got Jokes? Got Spam? From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 00:20:23 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA16243; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from dayspring.firedrake.org (dayspring.firedrake.org [195.82.105.251]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF7017E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 00:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from roger by dayspring.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 13rcSL-0002Y7-00; Fri, 03 Nov 2000 08:44:13 +0000 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:44:13 +0000 From: Roger Burton West To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LEAVE Message-ID: <20001103084413.A9780@firedrake.org> References: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from vince@vjs.org on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:45:09AM -0500 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Waxing Crescent (41% of Full) X-Discordian-Date: Boomtime, The Aftermath 15 3166 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On or about Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:45:09AM -0500, Vince Sabio typed: >Speaking of >which, anyone have the URL for the >reply-to-munging-considered-life-threatening page? Every copy of SmartList contains a link: http://garcon.unicom.com/FAQ/reply-to-harmful.html Roger From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 07:35:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA22946; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu [132.236.56.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1A317E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 06:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.253.230.42] (murmer.cit.cornell.edu [128.253.230.42]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07137 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:19:54 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: tco2@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:19:51 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Olson Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi At 22:05 -0800 2000/11/01, list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers-Dige wrote: >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:15:30 -0800 >From: Chuq Von Rospach >Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) > >At 5:30 PM -0600 11/1/00, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > >On my > >lists, my goal is to teach them NOT to use HTML with email. > >and do you tell them to use only a black and white TV, to? Crank >their Model A? churn their own butter after milking their cow? > >You're fighting a battle that might be noble, but is long lost. All >you're really going to do down the road is convince folks to not >bother with your lists, except your own increasingly limited >brotherhood of already-convinced like-thinkers. > But we can promote a more creative solution!!!! How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature "Send an e-list command" Then all a user would have to do is choose this option for that message, and type in the appropriate command. The mail client would take care of making the message be plain text, with no signature, etc. Such a feature would set along side, fonts, styles, html, pdf, attachements, etc .... Then later if we create a MIME type for e-mail-list commands and the majority of the MLM support it, then the e-mail clients can just move to generating that instead, with out the users having to know the difference. For e-mail clients that have pluggable architectures (such as Eudora) one could just create a plug in that provides command templates for what ever MLM they are interacting with .... Support costs go down all around. users are happier Anyone seen any reason *not* to promote this line of solution? (something more constructive than, no one writer will ever listen) In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here. They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X. If they make this mail client do something like the above, they can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet. Regards, Todd Olson Cornell University E-List Admin Team From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 09:35:28 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00542; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:29:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smarthost.microsoft.com (smarthost.microsoft.com [131.107.3.106]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3678317E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:29:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from michj.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (MICHJ [157.56.101.209]) by smarthost.microsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2651.58) id V0SMRCJ1; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:56:25 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 09:56:34 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: "Michael S. Johnson" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: e-list commands in e-mail clients (was Re: HTML Based Email) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: michj@mail.eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Nov 2000, Todd Olson wrote: > How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature > "Send an e-list command" The University of Washington's Pine version 4.20 is at least one client that already supports this [1]: "Email list participation headers recognized." See also RFC 2369 [2]. [1] http://www.washington.edu/pine/changes/4.10-to-4.20.html [2] http://sunsite.dk/RFC/rfc/rfc2369.html Hope this helps, -- Michael S. Johnson Miyazaki Web and Mailing List Owner michj@nausicaa.net www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/mailing-list From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 10:50:33 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA01215; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:35:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from numen.elon.edu (numen.elon.edu [152.33.3.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84DEB17E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 10:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from belk205-20.elon.edu (host22-31.elon.edu [152.33.22.31]) by numen.elon.edu (2.1.1/8.9.1/Execmail 2.1) with ESMTP id NAA27935 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:55:07 -0500 (EST) From: Tony Rose Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:57:31 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Broadcast List Message-ID: X-Mailer: Execmail for Win32 5.1.1 Build (10) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to configure a majordomo list so that no one can send message to the list except for one person. It is to be used for news broadcasting, and even the recipients should not be able to send to the list. What configuration of the .config file would allow for this function? Thanks, -tr ________________________ Tony Rose UNIX Systems Administrator Elon College Voice: 336-278-5073 Fax: 336-278-5259 Email: Tony.Rose@elon.edu ________________________ "The truth is incontrovertible. Malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is." Winston Churchill ________________________ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 12:20:38 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA02185; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:10:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419DE17E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eA3Kal627820; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:36:47 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 12:29:18 -0800 To: Todd Olson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:19 AM -0500 11/3/00, Todd Olson wrote: >Hi >How about we lobby the e-mail client writers to add a feature >"Send an e-list command" A great idea, simply ask the authors of he clients you use to support the list-* RFCs in a useful way. >In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here. >They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X. >If they make this mail client do something like the above, they >can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet. > this isn't something I can really comment on -- but I will say if the mail app engineers weren't aware of the RFCs before, they are now that my list server is sending it to them. But I honestly don't know what's on their schedule and what they have time for before initial release, but I do know their release schedules are real tight, so if it's in there, great. if it's not, it's not because of lack of interest... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 13:35:24 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA02886; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from blipvert.blank.org (unknown [216.112.239.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9568F17E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 13:27:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19108 invoked by uid 500); 3 Nov 2000 21:54:53 -0000 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:54:52 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: Todd Olson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: <20001103165452.U3394@blank.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from chuqui@plaidworks.com on Fri, Nov 03, 2000 at 12:29:18PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Chuq Von Rospach (chuqui@plaidworks.com): > > >In fact, Chuq, Apple has a great opportunity to take the high ground here. > >They are planning to release a new mail client with Mac OS X. > >If they make this mail client do something like the above, they > >can make the Mac that much more friendly for the internet. > > this isn't something I can really comment on -- but I will say if the > mail app engineers weren't aware of the RFCs before, they are now > that my list server is sending it to them. But I honestly don't know > what's on their schedule and what they have time for before initial > release, but I do know their release schedules are real tight, so if > it's in there, great. if it's not, it's not because of lack of > interest... Honestly, I'd be _amazed_ if that mail product actually made it into the first release. I will be even more amazed if it does and is still supported a year from now. (cf. Claris Emailer) Apple has far too much incentive to keep Microsoft happy by pushing Outlook Express, and no reason other than NeXTie pride to try to ressurrect NeXTmail five years after a stake was finally driven (deservedly) through its heart. -n ------------------------------------------------------------ My motorcycle/ stands forlorn on Hurlbut Street. The fucker won't start. (--me) ------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 14:35:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA03492; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FD7617E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 14:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26655 invoked by uid 100); 3 Nov 2000 17:56:17 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:56:17 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: Tony Rose Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Broadcast List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What configuration of the .config file would allow for this function? moderate = yes That means that only someone who knows the Approve: password, i.e. you, can post to the list. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 15:35:39 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA04064; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx-30.mail.knowledge.com (office.knowledge.com [213.170.2.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D33017E8B for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from peter by mx-30.mail.knowledge.com with local (Exim 3.16 #1) id 13rqhq-0000pN-00; Fri, 03 Nov 2000 23:57:10 +0000 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:57:10 +0000 From: Peter Galbavy To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: LEAVE Message-ID: <20001103235706.A2734@office.knowledge.com> References: <200011022358.RAA23522@mail.xnet.com> <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A01CA99.579.E98D93@localhost>; from ashandrr@mastnet.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 08:12:09PM -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote: > I've seen this disclaimer a few times before from subscribers on my > lists and others. One subscriber told me that his employer put that on > every outgoing message and he had no control over it. > > Whether or not you find it offensive or in your case, grist for the > humor mill, you have to admit it is a little wasteful, bandwidth-wise. > > I think were it ever to become prevalent on my lists, I might consider > bouncing those messages. I have already asked one use to leave a mailing list I manage because of this issue. Whether or not in (UK) law I or other list members (but mainly me) may be liable for anything is a guess to yet be tested, but I am not willing to either take that risk, or let stupid people/companies/lawyers get the world used to this. That particular mailing list is not public access, but nor is it limited to members with legally binding contracts... rgds, -- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd http://www.knowledge.com/ From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 6 17:16:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA18632; Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A90F17E8B for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.21.198.83] (account ) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro WebUser 3.4b2) with HTTP id 858054 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:27:52 -0600 From: "Allan Newsome" Subject: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: CommuniGate Pro Web Mailer v.3.4b2 Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:27:52 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm talking to the admin folks at the host of my Majordomo mailing list and they said the following. < to a majordomo list. All it does is forward the message. The only thing I could possibly see is if an HTML email was sent to a majordomo list and the email reader receiving the message doesn't understand html. They would still get the message, but it would contain the html coding as plain text. If AOL 6.0 doesn't support plain text email as you suggest, it would not only affect majordomo...but every email program out there that is not set to send out emails in html format by default. If you can point me to where you found out this information, i can do some more research. >> My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML? Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists? My answer to the tech support guy was that he was wrong about the HTML being forwarded straight through in the Digest format. I need to find somewhere that has the "real" answer and you guys are the best source of places to find that information. GreatCircle.com doesn't seem to have it. Thanks, Allan Newsome From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 05:52:22 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA28475; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 05:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F072C17EB3 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 05:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.243.156.212] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id IAA10089 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:05:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011071405.IAA10089@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest? Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:06:09 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/6/00 7:27 PM, Allan Newsome wrote... >My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML? majordomo doesn't support or not support HTML. It passes along what it is given. >Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists? The digest would be a mess, since the entire thing isn't being sent through in text/html. Although someone with a mailer that can view just that MIME section should get it as an HTML message. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 08:37:21 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA29985; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2E917EB3 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (ppp.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G3N004N8YW7WS@eListX.com> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:52:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:53:33 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest? In-reply-to: X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Allan Newsome Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On the one hand, majordomo does not care about the content of a message, whether HTML or anything else. Like most elist technologies it receives messages and it distributes them. Plain and simple. On the other hand, there are two times when it (and most elist technologies) should care and sometimes create problems depending on how successsful they are at dealing with them. 1. Digests - if digests are forwarded as MIME multipart/digests, then most MIME-aware email clients will have no trouble with HTML-based messages. I don't know what majordomo2 does, but older versions of majordomo did not do this and thus by default HTML messages in a digest will be unreadable. Of course, the recipient could take steps to put the message in a separate file and then view it. After all, majordomo does pass the content through, it only "messes up" the headers. 2. Administrative messages - Here again I don't know about majordomo2, but older versions would not parse the following: subscribe Most things that send HTML actually send a multipart/alternative which has text in front, so this is not as much of a problem as it could be. In any case, how much all of this matters depends on your subscriber community. Therefore, your mileage may vary. Jim On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Allan Newsome wrote: Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:27:52 -0600 From: Allan Newsome To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest? I'm talking to the admin folks at the host of my Majordomo mailing list and they said the following. < to a majordomo list. All it does is forward the message. The only thing I could possibly see is if an HTML email was sent to a majordomo list and the email reader receiving the message doesn't understand html. They would still get the message, but it would contain the html coding as plain text. If AOL 6.0 doesn't support plain text email as you suggest, it would not only affect majordomo...but every email program out there that is not set to send out emails in html format by default. If you can point me to where you found out this information, i can do some more research. >> My question to the list is, does Majordomo support HTML? Does is support HTML in the Digest version of mailing lists? My answer to the tech support guy was that he was wrong about the HTML being forwarded straight through in the Digest format. I need to find somewhere that has the "real" answer and you guys are the best source of places to find that information. GreatCircle.com doesn't seem to have it. Thanks, Allan Newsome From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 10:06:09 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00914; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D9217EB3 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (pool0662.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.166.152]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28245; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:18:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20001107101418.00c4d210@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:16:56 -0800 To: James M Galvin From: SRE Subject: Re: HTML Based Email with Majordomo Digest? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sounding like a broken record here: USE DEMIME! This script will strip out all the HTML and RTF crap, producing formatted plain text. I use it in a pipe to keep my command parser from croaking, and I use it in a pipe to keep my lists html-free without playing nanny and telling people what they can send. Easy. Functional. Free. Works with any MLM, not specific to majordomo. Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com At 08:53 AM 11/7/00, James M Galvin wrote: >1. Digests - if digests are forwarded as MIME multipart/digests, then > most MIME-aware email clients will have no trouble with HTML-based > messages. I don't know what majordomo2 does, but older versions of > majordomo did not do this and thus by default HTML messages in a > digest will be unreadable. Of course, the recipient could take steps > to put the message in a separate file and then view it. After all, > majordomo does pass the content through, it only "messes up" the > headers. > >2. Administrative messages - Here again I don't know about majordomo2, > but older versions would not parse the following: > subscribe From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 12:05:28 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA02023; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFE517EB3 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.202] (A17-216-27-202.apple.com [17.216.27.202]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eA7KGG621142; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:16:16 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3A005337.6192.5F0AD1@localhost> <3A006B80.17944.BDEBFB@localhost> <00b601c0447c$e6df4800$46962640@noderunner.net> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:16:32 -0800 To: thomas@ifi.uio.no, Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Cc: Russ Allbery , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:11 PM +0100 11/7/00, Thomas Gramstad wrote: > Noone should pretend that this is >"progress". Just because some people don't see it as progress doesn't mean it's not progress. And it sure doesn't mean all of us don't see it as progress. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 15:34:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA03963; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A493117EAF for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.202] (A17-216-27-202.apple.com [17.216.27.202]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eA7Nov605875 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:50:57 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:51:29 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Dave Rand.. where are you? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry to do this to the list, but I misplaced his e-mail. Dave -- I have a MAPS issue I want to discuss with you privately, can you e-mail me? it's not something I think ought to start in public... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Be just, and fear not. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 07:05:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA29968; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from wildrice.com (unknown [209.220.42.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9798817E8C for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:56:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.221.177.17] (24.221.177.17) by wildrice.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0) for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:24:14 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: Chuck@mail.WildRice.com Message-Id: Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 07:23:55 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuck Rice Subject: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am new to this list so excuse me for interjecting, but I run a number of small mailing lists with a total of about 3000 subscribers. One of the lists is pretty high traffic with as many as 300 to 500 messages a day during September and October. I have been dealing with the HTML problem for a couple of years now. I find that HTML causes problems for some user's email clients, it causes problems for digest readers, problems in that it can carry viruses, and problems for my archives. I am sure I am preaching to the choir here. A couple of years ago, I wrote an AppleScript to just bounce HTML formatted messages with instructions on how to turn HTML off in Outlook Express. This has pretty much solved my problem and my users love it this way. A month ago, I upgraded my system and had trouble with the script for a few weeks and I got numerous complaints that it was not rejecting HTML messages any more. Thank heavens I found the problem. I started getting reports of AOL 6.0 problems a week or two ago and had the AOL users contact AOL support. I got this response back from one of my users: "I spoke again to the aohell tech support people. They have admitted it is a problem with there software and will fix the problem in a few weeks when they update the software. I guess in the meantime my best bet is to get a hotmail account." And other users reported that AOL recommended that they switch back to 5.0 for a few weeks till the problem was fixed and a patch was available. I have read many of the archive posts on this topic, and while I agree that AOL is an 800 Pound Gorilla, you also must remember that they have an 8000 Pound User Base, and even if 1 percent of them complain, the 800 Pound Gorilla gets a big headache. As to Chuq's argument that my users will find it onerous and move to another mailing list, I have not found this to be the case. My lists are growing steadily every year and people seem to like the way I run my lists. I do have one list that gets business correspondence. I exclude that list from the HTMLreject filter since messages to that list can come from anywhere and the 5 people on that list can handle the HTML. But that is just a matter of setting your filter to allow what you want in and disallow what you do not. -Chuck- -- __________________________________________________________________________ Chuck Rice From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 09:35:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA01849; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from pageplanet.com (england.pageplanet.com [205.160.14.30]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF0D17E8C for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.139.22.42] (129.139.22.42) by pageplanet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.0.1) for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:01:13 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: tcora1@mail.ibmwr.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A002EC3.A9012361@msic.dia.mil> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:00:52 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Tom Coradeschi Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Allan Newsome wrote: >Hey Folks, > >Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >sending email in "Plain Text" format. I seem to recall having seen some words posted here regarding what AOL users can to do avoid this problem (sorry, Chuq: it's a problem, at least on my lists). Of course, I deleted it. Word I get from some of my users is that it was raised as an issue during AOL's beta cycle, but the developers couldn't or wouldn't fix it, at least not at that time. -- tom coradeschi <+> tcora@skylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 12:28:47 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA03252; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FD617E8C for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.243.156.212] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id OAA18578 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:32:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011092032.OAA18578@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:33:24 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/9/00 12:00 PM, Tom Coradeschi wrote... >Allan Newsome wrote: >>Hey Folks, >> >>Just so we all know, AOL 6.0 does NOT give it's users the option of >>sending email in "Plain Text" format. > >I seem to recall having seen some words posted here regarding what >AOL users can to do avoid this problem (sorry, Chuq: it's a problem, >at least on my lists). No, there's no way to shut it off. >Of course, I deleted it. Word I get from some of my users is that it >was raised as an issue during AOL's beta cycle, but the developers >couldn't or wouldn't fix it, at least not at that time. Your users are partially mistaken. I can't be more specific. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 05:05:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA14977; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.germany.net (thor.germany.net [151.189.8.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24BB017E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 05:01:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [151.189.142.105] (pp.142.212.fra.germanynet.de [151.189.142.212]) by thor.germany.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E434A379A5 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:30:27 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: u0604325@pop3.rol3.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200011100901.BAA10055@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:29:28 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: John Neale Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I have been dealing with the HTML problem for a couple of years now. >I find that HTML causes problems for some user's email clients, it >causes problems for digest readers, problems in that it can carry >viruses, and problems for my archives. I am sure I am preaching to >the choir here. Forgive me if this is the wrong question in the wrong place, or if it's already been discussed here, but... Is there a filter or program that I can add to a UNIX system which will convert incoming HTML-encoded emails to plain text before they are processed by majordomo? We've got about 3000 subscribers on a list, with a lot of AOLers, and the HTML stuff with version 6.0 is giving us a major headache. Apparently you *can* still send as plain text with 6.0, but it's a bit of a fiddle. A friend of mine writes: ><< Yes. The solution for those on AOL 6.0 is to send their posts through > AOL's webmail address (www.aol.com). Stuff sent though there is sent in > plain text format. I think what they have to do is this: > > 1. Browse to www.aol.com > 2. Choose the Mail tab > 3. Enter their screen name and password > 4. Press Enter AOL Mail > > I don't know what happens after that as I'm not a member and don't want to > be. But I imagine it's fairly obvious. > > Liz > >> Thanks - John -- mailto:jneale@webshowcase.net http://www.webshowcase.net/johnneale From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 07:05:26 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA16029; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00CB17E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt.climber.org (pool0020.cvx21-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.192.20]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17205; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:29:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110065934.0180a1f0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:00:45 -0800 To: John Neale From: SRE Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <200011100901.BAA10055@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:29 AM 11/10/00, John Neale wrote: >Forgive me if this is the wrong question in the wrong place, or if it's >already been discussed here, but... >Is there a filter or program that I can add to a UNIX system which will >convert incoming HTML-encoded emails to plain text before they are >processed by majordomo? Sigh. I've answered this about 6 times this month... but here it is again: Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Demime email list: demime-l@scifi.squawk.com Takes out attachments, removes freebie ISP ads, turns HTML into formatted plain text. Free. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 07:50:31 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA16304; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp3.vnet.net (smtp3.vnet.net [166.82.1.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D4417E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 07:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp3.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAAG4qL07623 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA23027 for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:04:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 11:04:50 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Second attempt to post this. Admin filters apparently blocked the first try] On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > No, there's no way to shut it [HTML] off. The following fix for AOL 6.0 was posted a couple of days ago (forwarded with permission). I don't know if this works. Please post a followup if this technique is ineffective. - murr - ---------- Subject: All members Using AOL From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:38:03 EST Several of you are upgrading to AOL 6.0 and MSIE 5.5. Be aware that doing so will change your email settings and you will have to go in and change them back. Some of you are already having trouble posting to the list. AOL uses Microsoft coding as its underlying program. You have to make the changes in Outlook Express, NOT your AOL program. Open Outlook, find the options button in the top taskbar, and click on it. Set it to plain text, and get rid of all the other options to get your program to work properly for the list. TOF From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 10:20:51 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA17822; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BB817E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 10:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.1] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id MAA16953; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:37:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200011101837.MAA16953@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: HTML Based Email (AOL 6.0) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 12:38:10 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11/10/00 10:04 AM, murr rhame wrote... >On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > >> No, there's no way to shut it [HTML] off. > >The following fix for AOL 6.0 was posted a couple of days ago >(forwarded with permission). I don't know if this works. Please >post a followup if this technique is ineffective. It's not. AOL uses IE to render HTML in email, but there is no interaction with OE in *sending* it. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 18:20:25 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA21944; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from shrike.farcaster.com (shrike.farcaster.com [204.50.231.133]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82DEA17EAF for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:17:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29472 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2000 02:46:06 -0000 Received: from w243.z206111145.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (HELO ellen.mills.edu) (206.111.145.243) by shrike.farcaster.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2000 02:46:06 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> X-Sender: spertus%mills.edu@mail.brightmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 18:48:28 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Ellen Spertus Subject: Separating bounces from replies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there any way to set up headers so bounces go to the manager and replies go to the original sender? This would be trivial if the "errors-to:" and "from:" headers were reliably used for bounces, in which case "reply-to:" could be set to the original sender. Unfortunately, some mail programs send bounces to the reply-to address. Has anyone using any list software figured out a way to route replies and bounces separately? Ellen Spertus From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 20:49:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23098; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3BC417E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [65.3.200.99] by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001111050900.VPAC19780.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[65.3.200.99]> for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:09:00 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: meh@pop.dnai.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 21:08:52 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Mikael Hansen Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 18:48 -0800 11/10/2000, Ellen Spertus wrote: >Is there any way to set up headers so bounces go to the manager and >replies go to the original sender? This would be trivial if the >"errors-to:" and "from:" headers were reliably used for bounces, in >which case "reply-to:" could be set to the original sender. >Unfortunately, some mail programs send bounces to the reply-to >address. Has anyone using any list software figured out a way to >route replies and bounces separately? I can't say that I am aware of any e-mail server software that sends bounces to the Reply-To address. Which ones are you thinking of? From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 21:04:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23199; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (silkt.nih.gov [128.231.160.112]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 34F1117E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:53:53 -0800 (PST) To: spertus@mills.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:19:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies Message-Id: <20001111045353.34F1117E8C@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is there any way to set up headers so bounces go to the manager and replies > go to the original sender? This would be trivial if the "errors-to:" and > "from:" headers were reliably used for bounces, in which case "reply-to:" > could be set to the original sender. Unfortunately, some mail programs > send bounces to the reply-to address. Has anyone using any list software > figured out a way to route replies and bounces separately? > > Ellen Spertus Today most email systems correctly send bounces to the Return-path address (aka SMTP MAIL FROM or Envelope From, different from the RFC 822 From). When this is done right, any list server wlll get them to the right place. Bounces should never be sent to the RFC 822 From or the Reply-to addresses. Errors-to is non-standard and is ignored by most mail systems. LISTSERV has filters that will intercept most bounces that are erroneously sent to the list and reroute them to the list owner. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 21:19:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA23141; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.vjs.org (unknown [216.203.4.199]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7DA917E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.250] (192.168.0.250) by mail.vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:16:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.8 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:15:45 -0500 To: Ellen Spertus , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 18:48 -0800 11/10/2000, Ellen Spertus sent us: >Is there any way to set up headers so bounces go to the manager and >replies go to the original sender? Yes. >This would be trivial if the "errors-to:" and "from:" headers were >reliably used for bounces, Use of Errors-to: has long been deprecated. However, some mail servers still use it, so it's not a bad idea to include it for completeness. Use of header From: for mail bounces is an abomination, and authors of MTAs (mail servers) that bounce to header From: should be taken out back and beaten until their understanding of RFCs 821 and 1123 (et al.) improves. >in which case "reply-to:" could be set to the original sender. >Unfortunately, some mail programs send bounces to the reply-to >address. Authors of MTAs that bounce to Reply-To: should simply be killed without ceremony. >Has anyone using any list software figured out a way to route >replies and bounces separately? Yes. Bounces are to be routed to the "envelope from" address; this address does not have to appear anywhere in the header (though, in personal correspondence, it is often the same address as that in header From: and/or Reply-To:). The "envelope from" address is the address that appears in the SMTP "MAIL FROM" command. When the message leaves the SMTP mail system, the "envelope from" address is promoted into the message header as the Return-path: line. Thus, you will hear people say that mail should be bounced to the Return-Path address. Strictly speaking, it is more correct to say that it is bounced to the "envelope from" address, though either statement conveys the correct point. The upshot of all this: Every MLM that I know of will generate an "envelope from" address that is different from the header From: -- and since the vast majority of MTAs out there will properly bounce to the envelope from address, NOT header From: or Reply-To:, you have a formal separation of bounce messages and human replies. As an aside: Whenever I find a user whose MTA bounces to either header From: or Reply-To:, I immediately remove that user from the mailing list. I try to avoid setting the bar for entry to my lists above the point at which the user has direct control; however, in the case of bouncing to header From: or Reply-To:, the miscreant MTA is causing confusion and/or annoyance for other subscribers on the mailing list, and there is no justification for permitting this (IMO). Of course, decisions such as these are left up to the individual list owners, YMMV, professional driver on a professional track, limited-time offer, objects in mirror are closer than they appear. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Got Bounces? vince@vjs.org Got Jokes? Got Spam? From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 22:49:26 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA24231; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.vjs.org (unknown [216.203.4.199]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD3F17E8C for ; Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:41:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.250] (192.168.0.250) by mail.vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sat, 11 Nov 2000 02:10:04 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.0.20001110184555.02ee0c38@mail.brightmail.com> X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.8 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 02:09:20 -0500 To: Mikael Hansen , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 21:08 -0800 11/10/2000, Mikael Hansen sent us: >At 18:48 -0800 11/10/2000, Ellen Spertus wrote: > >>Is there any way to set up headers so bounces go to the manager and >>replies go to the original sender? This would be trivial if the >>"errors-to:" and "from:" headers were reliably used for bounces, in >>which case "reply-to:" could be set to the original sender. >>Unfortunately, some mail programs send bounces to the reply-to >>address. Has anyone using any list software figured out a way to >>route replies and bounces separately? > >I can't say that I am aware of any e-mail server software that sends >bounces to the Reply-To address. Which ones are you thinking of? cc:Mail is truly the industry leader in this area. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Got Bounces? vince@vjs.org Got Jokes? Got Spam? From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 10:49:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA03914; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from shrike.farcaster.com (shrike.farcaster.com [204.50.231.133]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 187C917E8C for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3230 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2000 19:07:24 -0000 Received: from w243.z206111145.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net (HELO ellen.mills.edu) (206.111.145.243) by shrike.farcaster.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2000 19:07:24 -0000 Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001111110733.02f21838@mail.brightmail.com> X-Sender: spertus%mills.edu@mail.brightmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:09:38 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Ellen Spertus Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you, Vince and Roger, for answering my question. As you indicated, my problem stemmed from not realizing that there were two different from fields (SMTP MAIL FROM and RFC 822 FROM). This is a big help. Ellen Spertus From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 12:04:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA04529; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ripco.com (pop2a.ripco.com [209.100.227.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA3917E8C for ; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 11:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) id eABKJoA28527 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:19:50 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <200011112019.eABKJoA28527@ripco.com> Subject: Re: Separating bounces from replies To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:19:50 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Vince Sabio" at Nov 11, 2000 12:15:45 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | Authors of MTAs that bounce to Reply-To: should simply be killed | without ceremony. To nobody's surprise, Sabio and I disagree again. A ceremony is certainly called for; it should be elaborate and ostentatious to put the fear of God- dess into anyone else who even considers routing a bounce anywhere besides the envelope sender address. Some say that public punishment of crimes has no deterrent effect; to them I reply, so what: it would be so much *fun*. In any case, regarding Ellen Spertus's original question: there is no gua- ranteed method that some badly designed or misconfigured MTA won't subvert by sending the NDN to the wrong address, and there is no guaranteed method for automatically parsing messages to the submission address to try to pick out misaddressed NDNs that some badly designed MTA won't subvert by writing its own cutesy (and usually uninformative) NDN text that doesn't resemble anyone else's. From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 20 18:49:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA06808; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from NEOMAIL.NEOPLANET.COM (neomail.neoplanet.com [209.141.42.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E30117EAF for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 18:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dolemite2 (neo144-1.neoplanet.com [10.0.1.144] (may be forged)) by NEOMAIL.NEOPLANET.COM (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA23919 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:13:38 -0700 From: "Micah Abrams" To: Subject: Need help choosing the right mlm Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 20:05:47 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0532D.45960FF0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0532D.45960FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear list -- I am currently researching different mlm's and am hoping to get some feedback from you all. I will be running the list off of a pentium III 450 with 512 megs of ram on a 4-meg connection (burstable) running linux. I need the system to be able to process at least 250,000 outgoing emails a day. Posting traffic on the list will be limited. It will primarily be for outgoing emails. It needs to track both unsubscribes and bounces. I am looking for a cost-free solution, but am willing to consider commercial packages. I am open to pretty much any solution so long as it runs on linux :). I'm looking forward to your sugguestionis. Thanks in advance Micah ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0532D.45960FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear = list=20 --
 
I am = currently=20 researching different mlm's and am hoping to get some feedback from you=20 all.  I will be running the list off of a pentium III 450 with 512 = megs of=20 ram on a 4-meg connection (burstable) running linux.  I need the = system to=20 be able to process at least 250,000 outgoing emails a day.  Posting = traffic=20 on the list will be limited.  It will primarily be for outgoing=20 emails.  It needs to track both unsubscribes and bounces.  I = am=20 looking for a cost-free solution, but am willing to consider commercial=20 packages. I am open to pretty much any solution so long as it runs = on linux=20 :).  I'm looking forward to your sugguestionis.
 
Thanks = in=20 advance
 
Micah
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C0532D.45960FF0-- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 23 01:19:10 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA11574; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 01:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns1.bt.es (ns1.bt.es [212.49.128.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CADB217E8B for ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 01:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from es_scr_exg.bt.es (es-scr-exg.bt.es [212.49.189.121]) by ns1.bt.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA21229 for ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:37:36 +0100 (MET) From: julio.prada@bt.es Received: FROM es_scr_exg.bt.es BY es_scr_exg.bt.es ; Thu Nov 23 10:36:46 2000 +0100 Received: by es-scr-exg.bt.es with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:36:36 +0100 Message-ID: To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Need help choosing the right mlm Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:35:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi micah, we've been looking too for solution to send 50.000 mesg. daily. Our scenario was Sun Ultra60, 512 MG RAM and USparcII, with 2 disks. It runs sendmail 8.11 and majordomo 1.94.5. Releases of sendmail 8.10 and above use multiqueue (to improve performance you'll need several disks, and put each queue in a disk). Our goal is to send the same message (32kb) to all users in less than an hour. We install to do this "bulk_mailer" to improve performance and management of majordomo. During benchmarking, using 'top' we detect that the cpu has not a lot of work (the processes were 0.14% more or less), so we conclude that the limitation are not HW. We send the 50.000 mesg. in 2 hours with only one host. Hosts are added as speed is needed (to share the load that has sendmail to send the messages...). This test was in a labo environment. Probably in production, host will be compaq (PIII), with linux, sendmail and majordomo. We think it's cheaper solution with a high level of performance. regards, jules -----Mensaje original----- De: Micah Abrams [mailto:micah@neoplanet.com] Enviado el: martes 21 de noviembre de 2000 4:06 Para: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Asunto: Need help choosing the right mlm Dear list -- I am currently researching different mlm's and am hoping to get some feedback from you all. I will be running the list off of a pentium III 450 with 512 megs of ram on a 4-meg connection (burstable) running linux. I need the system to be able to process at least 250,000 outgoing emails a day. Posting traffic on the list will be limited. It will primarily be for outgoing emails. It needs to track both unsubscribes and bounces. I am looking for a cost-free solution, but am willing to consider commercial packages. I am open to pretty much any solution so long as it runs on linux :). I'm looking forward to your sugguestionis. Thanks in advance Micah From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 06:40:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA02128; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 06:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.inet.fi (smtp.inet.fi [192.89.123.192]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5523417E8B for ; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 06:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-142.dyn.arenanet.fi ([194.241.254.142]:1062 "HELO pc001") by smtp.inet.fi with SMTP id convert rfc822-to-8bit; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:55:39 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001124165550.01532900@mail.inet.fi> X-Sender: xyzxyz-1@mail.inet.fi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:55:50 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Christel Nyman Subject: How do I prevent the subject line prefix from reproducing? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, My list for translators from Finnish into Swedish was recently moved from a majordomo server to a Mailman one. I put a H in brackets as a subject line prefix, but it keeps reproducing with every answer *): [H] SV: [H] SV: [H] Ravitsemistyöntekijä Is there anything I could do to precent the H from appearing mone than once? Tia, CHRISTEL *) "SV" = "Re" = "answer" in Swedish = "vastaus" in Finnish - these, of course, should repoduce wit hevery answer. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 16:35:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA07262; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:26:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7EB5C17E8B for ; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 4138 invoked from network); 24 Nov 2000 19:57:56 -0500 Received: from tom.iecc.com (208.31.42.38) by mail.iecc.com with SMTP; 24 Nov 2000 19:57:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:57:55 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: julio.prada@bt.es Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Need help choosing the right mlm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Our goal is to send the same message (32kb) to all users in less than an > hour. We install to do this "bulk_mailer" to improve > performance and management of majordomo. If you're sending lots of copies of the the same message, the MTA is the performance bottleneck, not the MLM. I'd suggest switching to qmail, which pumps out mailing list mail a lot faster than sendmail does. There are a couple of sets of patches around to glue majordomo to qmail. I've done it, it's not hard. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 21:05:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA09434; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0E917E8B for ; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 13zXn9-0001Yi-00; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:22:27 -0800 To: John R Levine Cc: julio.prada@bt.es, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm In-Reply-To: Message from John R Levine of "Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:57:55 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 21:22:27 -0800 Message-ID: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 19:57:55 -0500 (EST) John R Levine wrote: >> Our goal is to send the same message (32kb) to all users in less >> than an hour. We install to do this "bulk_mailer" to improve >> performance and management of majordomo. > If you're sending lots of copies of the the same message, the MTA > is the performance bottleneck, not the MLM. ObNote: As confirmed by Wietse Venema, of the factors within a SysAdm's control, MTA's are disk IO bound. > I'd suggest switching to qmail, which pumps out mailing list mail > a lot faster than sendmail does. Given QMail's odd licensing status I'd recommend Postfix or Exim in preference to QMail. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) : http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 23:05:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA11017; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888C717E8B for ; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:02:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id eAP7Ub225604; Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:30:37 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> References: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:26:45 -0800 To: J C Lawrence , John R Levine From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm Cc: julio.prada@bt.es, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:22 PM -0800 11/24/00, J C Lawrence wrote: >ObNote: As confirmed by Wietse Venema, of the factors within a >SysAdm's control, MTA's are disk IO bound. assuming you have them attached to a decent pipe, yes. If you're on a slow network, you're on a slow network. But assuming you aren't trying to stuff five pounds of mail out a two pound network, that's true. The biggest issues are DNS resolving and the client side speed, neither of which are under your control, and a big factor in the latter is SMTP overhead. I recently had a real-world test of this where I sent out about a 10K e-mail to a few (mumble number) subscribers, then later on sent a 20K e-mail to the same (mumble number) subscriber.s The rate of delivery was about the same in terms of 100K/deliveries per hour, but the network usage ramped up to take into consideration the size of the message. That seems a real clear sign to me that SMTP overhead and DNS overhead are the slowdowns -- when the message size doubled, delivery rate stayed pretty much the same, but the network sped up to ship them through... > > I'd suggest switching to qmail, which pumps out mailing list mail >> a lot faster than sendmail does. > >Given QMail's odd licensing status I'd recommend Postfix or Exim in >preference to QMail. that's a religious war. be my guest... (grin). -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) The vet said it was behavioral, but I prefer to think of it as genetic. It cuts down on the liability -- Get Fuzzy From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 08:21:53 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA18894; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F89B17E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 08:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([160.43.47.9]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id eAPGd3I59284 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:39:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:39:12 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: multiple line prefixes Message-ID: <194776771.975152352@[192.168.0.2]> In-Reply-To: <200011250900.BAA11986@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.5 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christel Nyman wrote: > I put a H in brackets as a subject line prefix, but it keeps reproducing > with every answer *): > > [H] SV: [H] SV: [H] Ravitsemisty=F6ntekij=E4 Most likely this is because Majordomo, which specifically parses for Re: = [prefix] to prevent this from happening, is not also parsing for every = conceivable "local variant" of the Re: prefix. You would need to patch = Majordomo, which you could then call M=E4jord=F6mo I suppose. By the way, it is a mail client ERROR to concoct these vernacular = "alternatives" to Re:, since it is not an abbreviation for the English word = /reply/ but is actually Latin, shortened from "In re xxxxx" meaning "In the = matter of xxxxx". Latin ought to be universal enough for everybody, and = uniformity of the email reply convention is essential for interoperability, = as the above complaint attests. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 09:21:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA19396; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C0BE17E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:15:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 13zjOj-0001oG-00; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:46:01 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: John R Levine , julio.prada@bt.es, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:26:45 PST." References: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 09:46:01 -0800 Message-ID: <6959.975174361@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 24 Nov 2000 23:26:45 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > The biggest issues are DNS resolving... Speaking of which I just found (slightly older) Debian packages of DJB's djbdns aka dnscache: http://www.codepark.org/debian/ The various bits are spread around in different subdirectories. I'd recommend against pointing your /etc/apt/sources.list file there as their package versioning is a bit bum and comes out newer than what are in fact new packages in the cannonical locations. If I get a chance this week (I'm changing jobs again -- want do lunch sometime this week before I move back to the other side of the Bay?) I'll grab the source packages and roll fresh/updated copies for 1.02 et al. Some interesting patches and extentions out there too: http://www.djbdns.org/ > I recently had a real-world test of this where I sent out about a > 10K e-mail to a few (mumble number) subscribers, then later on > sent a 20K e-mail to the same (mumble number) subscriber.s The > rate of delivery was about the same in terms of 100K/deliveries > per hour, but the network usage ramped up to take into > consideration the size of the message. Which is expectable if you think about it. While message is going to have some effect, it doesn't significantly affect resolution, connection, or negotiation at all. > that's a religious war. be my guest... (grin). Aaah, you know my stance on this from the Mailman lists. I've no interest in religious wars or zealotry, but then I also don't mind poking them with a stick if I can also add some useful data. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) : http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 10:36:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA19905; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:29:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from blipvert.blank.org (unknown [216.112.239.86]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E020D17E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12166 invoked by uid 500); 25 Nov 2000 19:00:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:00:56 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: J C Lawrence Cc: John R Levine , julio.prada@bt.es, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm Message-ID: <20001125140056.M7409@blank.org> References: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu>; from claw@kanga.nu on Fri, Nov 24, 2000 at 09:22:27PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of J C Lawrence (claw@kanga.nu): > > Given QMail's odd licensing status I'd recommend Postfix or Exim in > preference to QMail. Uh, this requires some clarification, and verges on FUD. Qmail does not have an "odd licensing status". Qmail is simply _not_ _licensed_, period, because the author believes (and I personally concur, not that that's relevant) that software licenses are unenforceable legal fiction. (Please don't take this as an invitation to debate the issue: the only debate that will count will happen in a court of law, and will likely not consult any of us. :) The "license" that qmail is distributed under is US copyright law; nothing more and nothing less. The practical upshot of this is simple: you can't distribute modified copies of qmail without the author's direct approval. You may, if you like, distribute your own modifications as patches to the source, and you can modify it to your heart's content as long as you don't distribute it. If your needs require you to distribute a customized MTA outside of your own organization, then yes, qmail is probably not for you. Otherwise, you can feel safe to evaluate qmail vs sendmail vs postfix on the more prosaic grounds of features, security and portability. -n ------------------------------------------------------------ "King Crimson think it's impressive to rock out in 17/9. What they don't realize is, it's _impossible_ to rock out in 17/9" (--Robert Christgau) ------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 11:21:54 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA20307; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.inet.fi (smtp.inet.fi [192.89.123.192]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6E417E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-164.dyn.arenanet.fi ([194.241.254.164]:1236 "HELO pc001") by smtp.inet.fi with SMTP id convert rfc822-to-8bit; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:49:15 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001125214913.0164d9b0@mail.inet.fi> X-Sender: xyzxyz-1@mail.inet.fi X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:49:13 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Christel Nyman Subject: Re: multiple line prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Tom and thanks for answering me. You, however, missed one thing in my question: "My list for translators from Finnish into Swedish was recently moved from a majordomo server to a *Mailman* one." While being on Majordomo, I didn´t use a prefix. Now, when I have the possibility to do so, the (H) prefix keeps reproducing with every answer, whereas in eGroup lists, for instance, prefixes are not multiplied. (Come to think of it, the list members of the eGroup lists I attend do not use Swedish or Finnish e-mail clients.) >> I put a H in brackets as a subject line prefix, but it keeps reproducing >> with every answer *): >> >> [H] SV: [H] SV: [H] Ravitsemistyöntekijä > >Most likely this is because Majordomo, which specifically parses for Re: [prefix] to prevent this from happening, is not also parsing for every conceivable "local variant" of the Re: prefix. You would need to patch Majordomo, which you could then call Mäjordömo I suppose. If the same goes for Mailman, what should I do? I am not familiar with the term "patch" in this connection. >By the way, it is a mail client ERROR to concoct these vernacular "alternatives" to Re:, since it is not an abbreviation for the English word >/reply/ but is actually Latin, shortened from "In re xxxxx" meaning "In the >matter of xxxxx". Latin ought to be universal enough for everybody, and uniformity of the email reply convention is essential for interoperability, >as the above complaint attests. I know, of course, what "Re" means, only I have no way of altering the Swedish and Finnish e-mail clients my list members use. If what you say goes for Mailman lists as well, one way to handle the problem of headlines growing to long would be to ask my list members using Finnish or Swedish e-mail clients to wipe off the "Vastaus" or "SV" part when answering. It is possible but would distort the archive hierarchy, so I don´t like the idea. Any other remedies? CHRISTEL From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 12:21:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA20820; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:13:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E60D17E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 13zmBO-00088d-00; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:44:26 -0800 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" Cc: John R Levine , julio.prada@bt.es, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm In-Reply-To: Message from "Nathan J. Mehl" of "Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:00:56 EST." <20001125140056.M7409@blank.org> References: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> <20001125140056.M7409@blank.org> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:44:26 -0800 Message-ID: <31286.975185066@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 14:00:56 -0500 Nathan J Mehl wrote: > In the immortal words of J C Lawrence (claw@kanga.nu): >> Given QMail's odd licensing status I'd recommend Postfix or Exim >> in preference to QMail. > Uh, this requires some clarification, and verges on FUD. QMail's licensing status is "odd" in the literal sense of the word in that in the realm of MTAs it is atypical in the extreme. > Qmail does not have an "odd licensing status". Qmail is simply > _not_ _licensed_, period, because the author believes (and I > personally concur, not that that's relevant) that software > licenses are unenforceable legal fiction. I agree with the assertion, but differ in my preferences. I like explicit licensing, not because they state my legal obligations (an argument I don't fully accept) but because they establish the author's preferences -- what he would like done -- and thus build the beginnings of a social contract between me and him. > (Please don't take this as an invitation to debate the issue: the > only debate that will count will happen in a court of law, and > will likely not consult any of us. :) Sorry. > The practical upshot of this is simple: you can't distribute > modified copies of qmail without the author's direct approval. > You may, if you like, distribute your own modifications as patches > to the source, and you can modify it to your heart's content as > long as you don't distribute it. Quite, and this is where my major problem comes in. I like the audit trail and reproducability gains from packaging systems. And yes, while I could build my own packages for QMail, that argument largely falls flat were it to be extended to every software I run. This encludes say the BSD ports system as there are many systems which should not have compilers installed on them (eg shell account servers, firewalls, and other security sensitive boxen). > If your needs require you to distribute a customized MTA outside > of your own organization, then yes, qmail is probably not for you. Conversely, I want a customised MTA distributed to me by others I have good reasons to trust and whose identities and work I can verify cryptographically. > Otherwise, you can feel safe to evaluate qmail vs sendmail vs > postfix on the more prosaic grounds of features, security and > portability. True. I wish I'd had time to enclude WMail in my testing, or to refine the bench enough to make accurate metric tracking both possible and reproducable. However, that wasn't the client need and I didn't have the time or equipment for that. They simply wanted an off-hand demonstration of the base curves to ensure they weren't too far off the mark with their IS decisions. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) : http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 13:36:49 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA21468; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D30F317E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15869 invoked by uid 50); 25 Nov 2000 22:03:55 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need help choosing the right mlm References: <5993.975129747@kanga.nu> <20001125140056.M7409@blank.org> <31286.975185066@kanga.nu> In-Reply-To: J C Lawrence's message of "Sat, 25 Nov 2000 12:44:26 -0800" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 25 Nov 2000 14:03:54 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 42 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk J C Lawrence writes: > I agree with the assertion, but differ in my preferences. I like > explicit licensing, not because they state my legal obligations (an > argument I don't fully accept) but because they establish the author's > preferences -- what he would like done -- and thus build the beginnings > of a social contract between me and him. I think those establish djb's preferences reasonably clearly. > Quite, and this is where my major problem comes in. I like the audit > trail and reproducability gains from packaging systems. And yes, while > I could build my own packages for QMail, that argument largely falls > flat were it to be extended to every software I run. You can distribute qmail packages. You can't distribute file-system-compliant packages for the reasons stated on that page (I disgree with djb on this point, but he wrote the software, so he gets to hold weird opinions about it). > This encludes say the BSD ports system as there are many systems > which should not have compilers installed on them (eg shell account > servers, firewalls, and other security sensitive boxen). I believe that qmail is already part of the OpenBSD ports collection. I could be wrong, though, not running OpenBSD myself. I'd prefer that qmail be free software too, but the licensing status isn't that noticeably different than the original Qt license, which was annoying but generally not considered fatal outside of people with a strong ideological belief in truly free software. (Please don't anyone read any implied criticism into that last statement; I'm often such a person myself.) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 19:52:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA24504; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:42:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C63717E8B for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:42:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1 (Debian)) id 13ztCL-0006fq-00; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:13:53 -0800 To: Christel Nyman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: multiple line prefixes In-Reply-To: Message from Christel Nyman of "Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:49:13 +0200." <3.0.6.32.20001125214913.0164d9b0@mail.inet.fi> References: <3.0.6.32.20001125214913.0164d9b0@mail.inet.fi> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:13:53 -0800 Message-ID: <25657.975212033@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:49:13 +0200 Christel Nyman wrote: > "My list for translators from Finnish into Swedish was recently > moved from a majordomo server to a *Mailman* one." ... > I know, of course, what "Re" means, only I have no way of altering > the Swedish and Finnish e-mail clients my list members use. If > what you say goes for Mailman lists as well, one way to handle the > problem of headlines growing to long would be to ask my list > members using Finnish or Swedish e-mail clients to wipe off the > "Vastaus" or "SV" part when answering. It is possible but would > distort the archive hierarchy, so I don´t like the idea. Any > other remedies? Mailman currently supports divers forms of the english standard Re: prefix. You can patch it to support other prefixes, but that is not a default option, or a default configurable option. I recommend the mailman support lists for further discussion of this (I've crossed this message to mailman-users). . -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) : http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=--