From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 3 05:53:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA29129; Thu, 3 Feb 94 05:53:16 GMT Received: from mail.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA29122; Wed, 2 Feb 94 21:53:05 PST Received: from localhost by mail.netcom.com (8.6.4/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA13386; Wed, 2 Feb 1994 21:55:54 -0800 From: dilcher@netcom.com (Jeff Dilcher) Message-Id: <199402030555.VAA13386@mail.netcom.com> Subject: digest? To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 21:55:53 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 152 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk could someone tell me how I would make my list into a digested list? I am running a list with the majordomo software. Thanks, Jeff Dilcher@netcom.com From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 3 16:51:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02109; Thu, 3 Feb 94 16:51:38 GMT Received: from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02102; Thu, 3 Feb 94 08:51:27 PST Received: by snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (5.64/1.35) id AA18529; Thu, 3 Feb 94 11:51:55 -0500 From: stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal) Message-Id: <9402031651.AA18529@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> Subject: unsub scripts? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 11:51:53 EST In-Reply-To: <9402030910.AA00333@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>; from "List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Feb 3, 94 1:10 am Organization: Your Company Name Here X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any unix scripts that can be used to add or delete people from a list, based on email messages? I can't implement majordomoo or anything like that, but this might be a help to me rather tha doing it manually... Steve, illiterate today -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Portigal ** User-Interface Dude ** stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca | | Voice/Fax: (905) 632 6647 Stop The Insanity! | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 3 17:57:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02379; Thu, 3 Feb 94 17:57:56 GMT Received: from khijol.yggdrasil.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02372; Thu, 3 Feb 94 09:57:47 PST Received: by khijol.yggdrasil.com (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0pS8Jl-000HZnC; Thu, 3 Feb 94 09:58 PST Message-Id: From: erc@khijol.yggdrasil.com (Ed Carp) Subject: Re: unsub scripts? To: stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 09:58:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9402031651.AA18529@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> from "Steve Portigal" at Feb 3, 94 11:51:53 am Reply-To: ecarp@netcom.com X-Comment: PGP 2.3 public key available - finger erc@saturn.upl.com. X-Mn-Key: NORMAL X-Organization: Temple In The Forest - Fremont, CA X-Operating-System: Linux 0.99.14u X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 802 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anyone have any unix scripts that can be used to add or delete > people from a list, based on email messages? I can't implement majordomoo > or anything like that, but this might be a help to me rather tha > doing it manually... How about... in body of email: "{add | del} user@site.domain" Add script: grep ^add|cut -d' ' -f2 >> user.list Del script: grep -v ^`grep ^add|cut -d' ' -f2` < user.list > user.list.new mv user.list.new user.list Not very secure - just a quick hack...you could also parse the address from the headers, but that's a little more difficult... -- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@wetware.com 510/659-9560 "What's the sense of trying hard to find your dreams without someone to share it with, tell me, what does it mean?" -- Whitney Houston, "Run To You" From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 3 10:32:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02528; Thu, 3 Feb 94 18:24:32 GMT Received: from tta.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02513; Thu, 3 Feb 94 10:24:18 PST Received: by tta.com (5.67/TTA-1.00) id AA03968; Thu, 3 Feb 94 12:04:26 -0600 Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 12:04:26 -0600 From: stan@tta.com (Stan Hanks) Message-Id: <9402031804.AA03968@tta.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Big lists and heavy DNS loads Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I thought this was discussed in the past, but if so I can't find it in the various articles I've saved. Anyway, I'm running a list with 600+ subscribers, sending messages to 450+ different hosts (all of which have A or MX records). At 30-50 messages a day, plus various rejected mail being returned to sender, etc. I'm spending one HELL of a lot of time resolving names into IP numbers, including a significant amount of time waiting on other people's name servers to tell me that yes, foo.com is *still* at 123.456.78.90... Is there any convenient fix for this? Stan From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 4 19:08:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA07417; Fri, 4 Feb 94 19:08:05 GMT Received: from nico.aarnet.edu.au ([139.130.204.16]) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA07396; Fri, 4 Feb 94 11:07:48 PST Received: from cruskit.aarnet.edu.au (cruskit.aarnet.edu.au [139.130.204.2]) by nico.aarnet.edu.au (8.6.5.Beta11/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA13085; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:27:20 +1100 Received: from localhost (asjl@localhost) by cruskit.aarnet.edu.au (8.6.4/1.2) id LAA02259; Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:27:54 +1100 Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 11:27:53 +1100 (EST) From: Andy Linton Subject: Re: Big lists and heavy DNS loads To: Stan Hanks Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9402031804.AA03968@tta.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 3 Feb 1994, Stan Hanks wrote: > Date: Thu, 3 Feb 94 12:04:26 -0600 > From: Stan Hanks > To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Big lists and heavy DNS loads > > I thought this was discussed in the past, but if so I can't find it > in the various articles I've saved. Anyway, I'm running a list with > 600+ subscribers, sending messages to 450+ different hosts (all of > which have A or MX records). At 30-50 messages a day, plus various > rejected mail being returned to sender, etc. I'm spending one HELL > of a lot of time resolving names into IP numbers, including a significant > amount of time waiting on other people's name servers to tell me that > yes, foo.com is *still* at 123.456.78.90... > Stan, You don't mention if you're running a caching only nameserver on the mail host. I've found this to be a positive step. My mail host has now been up for 7 days, runs a number of lists where the biggest list has 400+ users with about remote 340 hosts and currently the cache is around 400 Kbytes. I suspect this should be close to a steady state. I also run with Sendmail V8 which will piggyback messages where the MX records point to the same site. With a mix of 600 -> 450 as you describe there may be some savings there in processing too. (I see you run Sendmail 5.67) andy -- Andy Linton A.Linton@aarnet.edu.au Network Engineer phone: +61 6 249 2874 AARNet fax: +61 6 249 1369 -- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 5 00:53:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA09094; Sat, 5 Feb 94 00:53:45 GMT Received: from xmission.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA09050; Fri, 4 Feb 94 16:48:48 PST Received: by xmission.com (4.1/Xmission/SMI-4.1) id AA27865; Fri, 4 Feb 94 17:50:09 MST From: pashdown@xmission.com (Pete Ashdown) Message-Id: <9402050050.AA27865@xmission.com> Subject: Swamped with error messages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 17:50:08 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 274 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Because I am now running several mailing lists off of XMission, I am being swamped with "Machine Down" type errors and usually three copies of each. Are there any programs that I can forward the mail to and it will digest them into a daily report indicating problem sites? From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 8 19:48:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00345; Tue, 8 Feb 94 19:48:50 GMT Received: from pooh.ucsf.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00338; Tue, 8 Feb 94 11:48:41 PST Received: from localhost by pooh.ucsf.edu (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id LAA26186; Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:50:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199402081950.LAA26186@pooh.ucsf.edu> Subject: Re: "Grouping" of mail from mailing lists ... To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 11:50:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1978 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (This thread started on the Majordomo-Users list. I've Cc:'d the List-Managers list, and I suggest that all further discussion take place there, since it isn't really germane to Majordomo anymore.) The topic is From: line munging to put the name of your list there instead of the author. This is in direct violation of (my reading of) rfc822. 4.4.1. FROM / RESENT-FROM This field contains the identity of the person(s) who wished this message to be sent. The message-creation process should default this field to be a single, authenticated machine address, indicating the AGENT (person, system or process) entering the message. In a perfect world, you could say: "Learn how to use a mail filter." In an imperfect world, you realize that new users barely know how to log in, let alone set up a mail filter. And most mail reading programs (user agents, whatever) present you with something like 1 joe@blow.com Thu Feb 3 10:24 745/31903 Re: Here's the file All the X-Mailing-List:'s and Sender:'s and Resent-From:'s and trailers in the body and even To:'s and Cc:'s won't help you figure out if this letter came from a list until you look at it. So, in order not to be confusing (and I consider changing the From: line to be VERY confusing), the only solution I've seen (as has been mentioned here) is to add a short tag in the subject line. 1 joe@blow.com Thu Feb 3 10:24 745/31903 [foobar]Re: Here's the file I don't think it's particularly aesthetic, but I can live with it. The only problem I can think of is _if_ you were gating the mailing list into a local newsgroup, and _if_ some sort of threading were done by looking at "Re:"'s at the beginning of Subject lines, you'd break that. But I really, really don't think changing the From: field is the answer. john troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu ps and don't get me started on broken gateways and mailers that ignore From: and Reply-To:. grrrrr. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Wed Feb 9 18:42:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA07828; Wed, 9 Feb 94 18:42:32 GMT Received: from pooh.ucsf.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA07821; Wed, 9 Feb 94 10:42:25 PST Received: from localhost by pooh.ucsf.edu (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id KAA07939; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:44:39 -0800 Message-Id: <199402091844.KAA07939@pooh.ucsf.edu> Subject: [list-man] putting listname in the subject To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 10:44:38 -0800 (PST) From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 563 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One more comment on 'marking' mail with the list name to facilitate grouping/filtering/deleting/etc.: If you do put the list name into the subject, please be clever about it. Otherwise you can get lines like this (in my box today from the CCL = Computer Chemistry List). > Subject: CCL:Re: CCL:CCL:Re: High Cost of Comp. Chem. john troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu ps the CCL is one of the most professional I'm on. Comes from having a proactive administrator AND an outlet (an ftp site) for otherwise inappropriate posts (CVs, job openings, commercial announcements). From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 10 07:50:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA10473; Thu, 10 Feb 94 07:50:53 GMT Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA10466; Wed, 9 Feb 94 23:50:45 PST Received: from localhost by net.bio.net (8.6.5/IG-2.0) id XAA09737; Wed, 9 Feb 1994 23:52:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 9 Feb 1994 23:52:30 -0800 From: mcb@net.bio.net (Michael C. Berch) Message-Id: <199402100752.XAA09737@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: [list-man] putting listname in the subject Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) writes: > One more comment on 'marking' mail with the list name to facilitate > grouping/filtering/deleting/etc.: > > If you do put the list name into the subject, please be clever about it. > Otherwise you can get lines like this (in my box today from the CCL = > Computer Chemistry List). > > > Subject: CCL:Re: CCL:CCL:Re: High Cost of Comp. Chem. I think putting the list name in the Subject line is a terrible idea, for a couple of reasons besides the one shown by John Troyer above. First, a mail user agent that can parse the subject line for a list name for filtering can presumably read other headers. In a properly constructed list, this information will already be in a recipient header (To: or Cc:). A list processing program could easily add an explicit header like X-List-Name: (I think some LISTSERVs do this or something like it already.) Second, and perhaps more importantly, prefixes to a message subject for classification purposes are *already* in use in a number of lists and newsgroups, where they are applied by the sender or a moderator, e.g., Subject: [ADMIN] List will be off the air this weekend Subject: [Question] How can I initialize a framistator? Subject: [Anthony] How many !@#$%^& Xanth books are there, anyway? Putting the list name there would defeat this purpose, or at least clutter it unacceptably. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@net.bio.net / mcb@postmodern.com From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Feb 10 18:50:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA13170; Thu, 10 Feb 94 18:50:08 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA13160; Thu, 10 Feb 94 10:49:54 PST Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA11548 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:51:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199402101851.AA11548@cs.umb.edu> To: mcb@net.bio.net (Michael C. Berch) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: [list-man] putting listname in the subject In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Feb 1994 23:52:30 PST." <199402100752.XAA09737@net.bio.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:51:53 -0500 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199402100752.XAA09737@net.bio.net>, Michael C. Berch writes: > troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) writes: > > One more comment on 'marking' mail with the list name to facilitate > > grouping/filtering/deleting/etc.: > > > > If you do put the list name into the subject, please be clever about it. > > Otherwise you can get lines like this (in my box today from the CCL = > > Computer Chemistry List). > > > > > Subject: CCL:Re: CCL:CCL:Re: High Cost of Comp. Chem. > > I think putting the list name in the Subject line is a terrible idea, > for a couple of reasons besides the one shown by John Troyer above. Well if the program that adds the tag is a bit brighter, only one tag may be added. > First, a mail user agent that can parse the subject line for a list > name for filtering can presumably read other headers. Nope, not everybody uses a real mailer like mh 8-). Some mailers don't even know any other headers except From, To, and Subject. Yes, they haven't got a clue about Reply-To 8-(. Some of them are so dumb as to think that Sender is for the MUA 8-). > In a properly constructed list, this information will already be in > a recipient header (To: or Cc:). A list processing program could > easily add an explicit header like X-List-Name: (I think some > LISTSERVs do this or something like it already.) Yes, everybody should use mh and deliver, but if all the recipient has available is elm or pine, then they are out of luck. These two mailers are easy to use, and seem to be catching on and both can sort by subject. Neither supports the X-List-Name header, nor arguably should they since its an X header and is liable to go away tomorrow. > Second, and perhaps more importantly, prefixes to a message subject > for classification purposes are *already* in use in anumber of lists > and newsgroups, where they are applied by the sender or a moderator, e.g., > > Subject: [ADMIN] List will be off the air this weekend > Subject: [Question] How can I initialize a framistator? > Subject: [Anthony] How many !@#$%^& Xanth books are there, anyway? > > Putting the list name there would defeat this purpose, or at least > clutter it unacceptably. Hmm, I can read: Subject: [bulb] [ADMIN] List will be off the air this weekend Subject: [bulb] [Question] How can I initialize a framistator? Subject: [bulb] [Anthony] How many !@#$%^& Xanth books are there, anyway? Subject: [bulb] How many !@#$%^& Xanth books are there, anyway? just fine. It doesn't look really pretty, but it work nicely I think. If the program that adds the tag is smart, then this isn't a problem. For example: subject_tag = [bulb] # show that its from the bright ideas list subject_tab_inhibit << EOE # if a regexp matches, don't add a subject tag /\[[A-z]*\]/ # if there are items of the form [ADMIN] ... don't add [bulb] /^\sRe:.*[bulb]/ # if its a reply, that has a tag already, # don't add a tag /[bulb]/ # if the tag is alrady there don't add another one /^\sRe:/ # don;t add a tag on replies at all EOE I could inhibit tags on all of your examples above. If I was a nice person, I would set up the tags so they read: Subject: [bulb-ADMIN] List will be off the air this weekend Subject: [bulb-Question] How can I initialize a framistator? Subject: [bulb-Anthony] How many !@#$%^& Xanth books are there, anyway? to allow subject sorts to work correctly, and I would only need: /^\s\[bulb/ to inhibit the tags on untagged list submissions. -- John John Rouillard Special Projects Volunteer University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 =============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 11 17:58:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA18512; Fri, 11 Feb 94 17:58:39 GMT Received: from eros.Britain.EU.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AB18497; Fri, 11 Feb 94 09:58:25 PST Received: from andersen.co.uk by eros.britain.eu.net with UUCP id ; Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:32:25 +0000 Received: by andersen.co.uk (4.1/sp-0.1) id AA23355; Fri, 11 Feb 94 09:21:06 GMT Newsgroups: mail.list-managers-digest Path: sdpage From: sdpage@andersen.co.uk (Stephen Page) Subject: A flood from com.aol Message-Id: <1994Feb11.092103.23309@andersen.co.uk> Organization: Andersen Consulting (UK Practice) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 09:21:03 GMT Lines: 17 Apparently-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I moderate the Music-Research Digest. Over the last couple of months we have had a torrent of requests from users at com.aol, which I understand is a service called America On Line. I'm not sure why there has been such a sudden flood. I'd like to find out where they are hearing about our Digest, because I think the information they are seeing may be incomplete (I think they are interpreting it as including MIDI and synthesizers in its scope; these are explicitly excluded and therefore it is unusual to see a lot of interest in a fairly minority field). I've tried mailing the postmaster, twice, but had no reply. Has anyone else experienced a similar flood, and managed to trace it back to its source? Thanks Stephen Page sdpage@andersen.co.uk From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 11 12:33:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA19829; Fri, 11 Feb 94 20:08:21 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA19822; Fri, 11 Feb 94 12:08:09 PST Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA22087 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 11 Feb 1994 14:07:32 -0600 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA24989; 11 Feb 94 13:19:44 CST (Fri) Subject: A flood from America OnLine To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 13:19:43 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9402111319.AA24989@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk sdpage@andersen.co.uk (Stephen Page) complains: > I moderate the Music-Research Digest. Over the last couple of months we > have had a torrent of requests from users at com.aol, which I understand > is a service called America On Line. > I'm not sure why there has been such a sudden flood. > I've tried mailing the postmaster, twice, but had no reply. Has anyone else > experienced a similar flood, and managed to trace it back to its source? I think I can answer this. You see, I believe it's my fault. Couple months ago, I got contacted by someone from AOL wanting to post the Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists there. I told them what I told everyone -- Sure, as long as you leave all the attributions intact. Turned out to be a huge mistake. I got buried in the most clueless mail I think I have ever seen. I fired off a letter to postmaster@aol.com, asking them to remove the PAML from their system (it has a copyright on it, after all). In the response I got back, I was told things like, "The Internet is not the playground for the computer elite anymore," and "America Online is on the Interet, you better get used to it." But they also grudgingly agreed to remove the PAML. A week later, someone told me it was still there. I got Peter to send a second letter cause I was pretty pissed, and he's a lot more diplomatic than I am. There was no response to this one. In the meantime, I drew up a form letter to deal with all the clueless mail, and dropped all AOL users off my two mailing lists (the membership of one of my lists jumped by 15%, just from the influx of AOL users). Then about 2 weeks ago, I got contacted by someone from AOL, someone different from the ones before. Apparantly an AOL user complained to him when I refused them access to one of my lists, and he demanded an explanation for my exclusionist position. So I gave it to him. I haven't heard back from him, but the clueless mail also seems to have stopped. Then again, I'm not on AOL, so I can't check to see if they actually did remove my document from their system. I'm not the only one. I had at least one list owner ask me to remove their list from the PAML in direct response to this, and I've heard other complaints about actions of AOL users on mailing lists. Moral of the story? Don't have anything to do with America Online. Ever. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 "One problem with the Information Superhighway: more bad drivers." -- KD Leka From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 11 21:24:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20160; Fri, 11 Feb 94 21:24:16 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20153; Fri, 11 Feb 94 13:24:08 PST Received: from toolz.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.19) via UUCP id AA16796 ; Fri, 11 Feb 94 16:26:23 -0500 Received: by toolz (5.65/1.35) id AA26883; Fri, 11 Feb 94 16:20:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 16:20:48 -0500 From: todd%toolz.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (Todd Merriman) Message-Id: <9402112120.AA26883@toolz> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >You see, I believe it's my fault. > >Couple months ago, I got contacted by someone from AOL wanting to post >the Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists there. I told them what I told >everyone -- Sure, as long as you leave all the attributions intact. Turned >out to be a huge mistake. I was also buried in clueless mail for a couple of weeks on my mailing list, but I welcomed the new traffic because my list had become tired-assed. And, when the traffic jumped up by a factor of 10, many of those AOL subscribers dropped out because they have to pay for the time they spend reading mail. The traffic has now reduced to a reasonable level, and there are a lot of new topics being discussed on the list. I'm glad that AOL posted the Publicly Accessible Mailing List, and I'm glad that I am able to reach many more people who need the information on my list. | Todd Merriman - Software Toolz, Inc. +1 404 889 8264 / Maintainer of the | 8030 Pooles Mill Dr., Ball Ground, GA 30107 / Software Entrepreneur's | todd@toolz.atl.ga.us / Mailing List We are not anticipating any emergencies. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 11 13:33:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20017; Fri, 11 Feb 94 20:58:33 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20010; Fri, 11 Feb 94 12:58:19 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA03383; Fri, 11 Feb 94 13:00:15 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 13:00:15 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402112100.AA03383@apple.com> To: arielle@taronga.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Moral of the story? Don't have anything to do with America Online. >Ever. Well, actually, I'm a member of AOL, but ignoring that, I've got lots of aol members on the three lists I run. I have zero problems with them, and some of them are serious contributors. Or maybe not zero, but as a group they seem to cause me less hassle than some chunks of the Net. Of course, when they sign up they all get an intro note telling them what they can and can't do, how to sign on and off, what is and isn't valid discussion fodder and other "set the limits of acceptable behaviour" commentary. I find that really helps minimize expecation clashes. I also treat them as individuals, not as a net-ghetto, and so there's no built-in conflict waiting to happen. If I have a problem, I deal with the individual. And until I saw these last couple of messages, I hadn't realized the 50 or so AOL folks on my three lists were such problems. I guess I'll have to go rethink my position. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Feb 11 22:52:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20464; Fri, 11 Feb 94 22:52:57 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20457; Fri, 11 Feb 94 14:52:33 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id RAA00457; Fri, 11 Feb 1994 17:45:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199402112245.RAA00457@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: "John P. Rouillard" Cc: mcb@net.bio.net (Michael C. Berch), list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: [list-man] putting listname in the subject In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:51:53 EST." <199402101851.AA11548@cs.umb.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 17:45:19 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Nope, not everybody uses a real mailer like mh 8-). Some mailers don't > even know any other headers except From, To, and Subject. Yes, they > haven't got a clue about Reply-To 8-(. Some of them are so dumb as to > think that Sender is for the MUA 8-). Actually, sender is for the MUA, as is everything else in the header. It's just that the MUA shouldn't do anything with it except display it to the human. > Yes, everybody should use mh and deliver, but if all the recipient has > available is elm or pine, then they are out of luck. These two mailers > are easy to use, and seem to be catching on and both can sort by > subject. Neither supports the X-List-Name header, nor arguably should > they since its an X header and is liable to go away tomorrow. So let's define how lists should work, and eventually the support will be there. But putting the list name in the subject line just makes a bad situation worse. What's needed is a reasonable approach to mailing list handling, not yet another wart. Keith Moore From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 02:23:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA21544; Sat, 12 Feb 94 02:23:49 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA21537; Fri, 11 Feb 94 18:23:39 PST Received: from uumind.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.19) via UUCP id AA07747 ; Fri, 11 Feb 94 21:25:20 -0500 Received: by mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 11 Feb 94 20:23:18 -0500 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com Received: by knex.via.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 11 Feb 94 20:07:53 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.via.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 11 Feb 94 19:53:09 EST In-Reply-To: <9402112120.AA26883@toolz> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk emory!mathcs.emory.edu!toolz.UUCP!todd (Todd Merriman) writes: > >You see, I believe it's my fault. > > > >Couple months ago, I got contacted by someone from AOL wanting to post > >the Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists there. I told them what I told > >everyone -- Sure, as long as you leave all the attributions intact. Turned > >out to be a huge mistake. > > I was also buried in clueless mail for a couple of weeks on my > mailing list, but I welcomed the new traffic because my list > had become tired-assed. And, when the traffic jumped up by a factor > of 10, many of those AOL subscribers dropped out because they have > to pay for the time they spend reading mail. > Ah.. now I understand where all those aol.com subscriptions came from. :) I too noticed the surge in subs and "clueless mail". I had to go from unmoderated list to semi-moderated status due to mail coming to the server instead of the list, server commands being sent to the list and a whole bunch of off-topic stuff. I also had to make "mailing list basics" help texts aimed at the newbies, mostly aol users. Though some aol subscribers make good contributions, most seem to be fishing aimlessly. I have taken to posting the help text periodically to avoid the constant "how do I get off this stinking list? I am drowning in email" email. I am waiting for the Information Super Highway with some excitement and a lot of trepediation.. :) GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>| Internet: gess@knex.via.mind.ORG |<><>| CDPub List Admin. |<><>| {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!uumind!knex!gess |<><>| From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 04:23:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA21832; Sat, 12 Feb 94 04:23:36 GMT Received: from CS.UWindsor.Ca (csgate.lamf.uwindsor.ca) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA21825; Fri, 11 Feb 94 20:23:28 PST Received: by CS.UWindsor.Ca (4.1/SMI-DDN) id AA00958; Fri, 11 Feb 94 23:23:49 EST Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 21:47:58 -0500 From: "F. Scott Ophof" Organization: REXX Language Association (RexxLA) Subject: Re: [list-man] putting listname in the subject Message-Id: <940211.214758-0500@MReXX-0.23> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 11 Feb 1994 17:45:19 -0500 X-Mua: MReXX-0.23a... Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 11 Feb 1994 17:45:19 -0500 Keith Moore said: >> Nope, not everybody uses a real mailer like mh 8-). Some mailers don't >> even know any other headers except From, To, and Subject. Yes, they >> haven't got a clue about Reply-To 8-(. Some of them are so dumb as to >> think that Sender is for the MUA 8-). >Actually, sender is for the MUA, as is everything else in the header. It's >just that the MUA shouldn't do anything with it except display it to the >human. As to the "Sender:" header, rereading of the various RFCs (like 822) seems to be in order. The "Sender:" header plays an important role in the choice of which header's data should be used for replies. For example, the "From:" need not contain a repliable address. But in that case, the "Sender:" must be present, and must contain a repliable address. >But putting the list name in the subject line just makes a bad situation >worse. What's needed is a reasonable approach to mailing list handling, >not yet another wart. Yes please. Preferably something that will not break current useage in the various networks, but something which can be gradually migrated towards. In 10 years or so it might be possible to start phasing out current kludges. Regards. $$/ F. Scott Ophof [Member of RexxLA] From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 05:32:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22022; Sat, 12 Feb 94 05:32:48 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22015; Fri, 11 Feb 94 21:32:39 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id AAA00676; Sat, 12 Feb 1994 00:25:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199402120525.AAA00676@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: "F. Scott Ophof" Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: [list-man] putting listname in the subject In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 11 Feb 1994 21:47:58 EST." <940211.214758-0500@MReXX-0.23> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 00:25:31 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > As to the "Sender:" header, rereading of the various RFCs (like 822) > seems to be in order. The "Sender:" header plays an important role > in the choice of which header's data should be used for replies. > For example, the "From:" need not contain a repliable address. > But in that case, the "Sender:" must be present, and must contain a > repliable address. Yes, re-reading of RFC 822 *is* in order, so the relevant section appears below. (Please note the second bullet.) Also, the first bullet is somewhat misleading. Despite what this paragraph says, nondelivery reports should *always* go to the envelope return address, or after a message leaves SMTP, to the address in the Return-path header. (RFC 1123, 5.3.3) (I interpret the paragraph as follows: If the envelope is derived from the message header, the envelope return address (e.g. SMTP MAIL FROM) should be taken from the Sender field if it is present, else it should be taken from the >From field.) Also, I can find nothing in RFC 822 that states that the From header field need not contain a replyable address. The From field *is* allowed to contain more than one valid addresses, in which case the Sender field is required. But there's no reason that a reply should not be sent to all of the addresses listed in the From field. -Keith Moore ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 4.4.4. AUTOMATIC USE OF FROM / SENDER / REPLY-TO For systems which automatically generate address lists for replies to messages, the following recommendations are made: o The "Sender" field mailbox should be sent notices of any problems in transport or delivery of the original messages. If there is no "Sender" field, then the "From" field mailbox should be used. o The "Sender" field mailbox should NEVER be used automatically, in a recipient's reply message. o If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply should go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to the address(es) indicated in the "From" field. o If there is a "From" field, but no "Reply-To" field, the reply should be sent to the address(es) indicated in the "From" field. Sometimes, a recipient may actually wish to communicate with the person that initiated the message transfer. In such cases, it is reasonable to use the "Sender" address. This recommendation is intended only for automated use of originator-fields and is not intended to suggest that replies may not also be sent to other recipients of messages. It is up to the respective mail-handling programs to decide what additional facilities will be provided. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 21:27:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24570; Sat, 12 Feb 94 21:27:58 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24563; Sat, 12 Feb 94 13:27:50 PST Received: from zog.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id ; Sat, 12 Feb 94 13:29:37 PST Received: by zog.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27315; Sat, 12 Feb 94 13:29:37 PST Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 13:29:37 PST Message-Id: <9402122129.AA27315@zog.arc.nasa.gov> From: k p c To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: AOL cluelessness In-Reply-To: <9402120910.AA22611@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> References: <9402120910.AA22611@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've had a deluge of AOL users with very incorrect subscribing information also. That company does give the impression of being clueless and stubborn. I'll bet they are making money, though. However, I haven't had any real problem with AOL users, other than that they are new to the net. It's not their fault. I try to make new net users feel at home and to understand net culture, because only by assimilating them will the "information superhighway" not run roughshod over us all, retarding one of man's best inventions since agriculture. Did you know that AOL only has a tiny little (L << 80 characters) subject window that users can use, in at least some of their mailers? That wreaks havoc in some systems. Maybe AOL users mostly need to be educated about netcom/portal/delphi/local alternatives to AOL :-). -- kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov. AI, multidisciplinary neuroethology, info filtering. Death: dour monopolies, otiose video-on-demand, escrowed keys. Power Corrupts! Life: COTTAGE industry, FREE speech, ACTUAL privacy, CHOSEN community, FREEDOM! The prescription monopoly raises costs and lowers quality. Legalize medicines! From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 22:24:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24706; Sat, 12 Feb 94 22:24:43 GMT Received: from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24699; Sat, 12 Feb 94 14:24:34 PST Received: by snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (5.64/1.35) id AA27063; Sat, 12 Feb 94 17:20:42 -0500 From: stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal) Message-Id: <9402122220.AA27063@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> Subject: AOL behaviour To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 17:20:40 EST In-Reply-To: <9402120910.AA22611@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>; from "List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Feb 12, 94 1:10 am Organization: Your Company Name Here X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for that info. I never received aflood,but I did get a pile of subscriptions from AOL users, most of whom wanted to drop off after one digest. It's annoying adding and dropping users from the same domain so often, making me wonder what it is about the type of person on AOL that would cause them to do that...perhaps an unclear idea of what these lists are all about... Steve -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Portigal ** User-Interface Dude (looking for work) | | stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca Voice/Fax: (905) 632 6647 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 23:34:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24827; Sat, 12 Feb 94 23:34:21 GMT Received: from xmission.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24820; Sat, 12 Feb 94 15:34:14 PST Received: by xmission.com (4.1/Xmission/SMI-4.1) id AA01463; Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:36:12 MST From: pashdown@xmission.com (Pete Ashdown) Message-Id: <9402122336.AA01463@xmission.com> Subject: AOL cluelessness To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 16:36:12 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 233 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Maybe AOL users mostly need to be > educated about netcom/portal/delphi/local alternatives to AOL :-). Delphi and Portal aren't much better. I tell every AOL/Delphi/Portal/etc user I run into to try and find a local alternative. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 16:33:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24993; Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:01:03 GMT Received: from intercon.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24976; Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:00:51 PST Received: from localhost by intercon.com (Sendmail 8.6.5/940209.RS) id TAA06078; Sat, 12 Feb 1994 19:03:08 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 19:03:08 -0500 From: jailbait@intercon.com (Jailbait) Message-Id: <199402130003.TAA06078@intercon.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL behaviour Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk People should be sure to remember that there are a large number of books suddenly appearing all over the place listing Piles and Heaps and Gobs of various net resources - news, mail, web, gopher, etc, etc. These books are probably selling most to people on the various commercial services with some sort of "Internet Access" advertised...AOL/Compu$pend/ GEnie/Delphi, etc...and it's these people who are suddenly trying to figure out what's out there and thus deluging us. I have long thought that there is a serious need for /good/, /accesable/, /readable/, and widely distributed nettiquite postings - going to each and every new fidonet node, compu$pend user, etc... Might this be a reasonable project to start? JB From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Feb 12 16:36:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25007; Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:02:11 GMT Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA24999; Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:01:56 PST Received: from localhost by net.bio.net (8.6.5/IG-2.0) id QAA01625; Sat, 12 Feb 1994 16:03:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 16:03:44 -0800 From: mcb@net.bio.net (Michael C. Berch) Message-Id: <199402130003.QAA01625@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: > Moral of the story? Don't have anything to do with America Online. > Ever. I am beginning to agree with this. AOL users have caused the most problems for me. Prodigy users are possibly even more clueless, but they seem to be slower about discovering the Internet, probably because on Prodigy you have to pay *per message* to *receive* Internet mail. (Tee, hee.) Users from CompuServe, Delphi, and GEnie seem like masters of the universe by comparison. The latest is a message from cuf@aol.com, which showed up on my two lists and a third that I am on. It is some inexplicable twaddle about VDT safety; interesting perhaps, but totally irrelevant to the lists. (The user is not a subscriber, and the lists are not moderated.) I sent a request to the user not to post stuff like that. Then, upon seeing the message the third time, I sent a "please educate your user" type message to postmaster@aol.com. Then, this morning, I noticed that the first message to cuf@aol.com bounced with "no such user". Sigh. I bundled this off to postmaster@aol.com, with an implied threat about cutting them off, and promised to cc the message to list-managers. (It is appended.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@net.bio.net / mcb@postmodern.com ----- From mcb Sat Feb 12 15:50:44 1994 To: Postmaster@aol.com Subject: Re: Returned Mail: Member unknown: cuf Please explain the following bounced message. Is someone spoofing your mail, or has the account "cuf" been terminated? Please also be aware that I forwarded to this address a complaint about inappropriate e-mail sent to a number of Internet mailing lists, but that message has not (so far) been responded to. This message will be shared with the Internet list-managers mailing list. You should be aware that a number of Internet mailing list managers are upset at the number of inappropriate mailings and other messages from AOL customers, and a number of them (including myself) are considering barring AOL users from their lists because of similar problems, and responding to subscription requests with an explanation that it is not possible for AOL users to subscribe because of generally poor education by AOL about the culture and etiquette of the Internet. Thank you for your prompt attention to this. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@net.bio.net / mcb@postmodern.com Moderator, jump-in-the-river (Sinead O'Connor mailing list) and simpsons mailing list (simpsons-request@net.bio.net) ---------- > From Postmaster@aol.com Sat Feb 12 21:26:42 1994 > Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net by net.bio.net (8.6.5/IG-2.0) with SMTP > id NAA25192; Sat, 12 Feb 1994 13:26:39 -0800 > From: Postmaster@aol.com > Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net > (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA27671; Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:31:59 -0500 > X-Mailer: America Online Mailer > Sender: "Postmaster" > Message-Id: <9402121631.tn120945@aol.com> > To: mcb > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:31:55 EST > Subject: Returned Mail: Member unknown: cuf > Status: R > > > The mail you sent could not be delivered; > it was addressed to an unknown AOL user (cuf). > The text you sent follows... > > Please DO NOT send messages like this to this mailing list. The > list "jump-in-the-river@presto.ig.com" is devoted to the music and > work of Sinead O'Connor. It has nothing to do with VDTs or computer > use. > > Further inappropriate messages will result in a complaint to your > service's management for misuse of Internet mailing privileges. > > Thank you. > -- > Michael C. Berch > Jump-in-the-River Moderator > jitr-request@presto.ig.com > > > ----------------------- Headers ------------------------ > >From mcb@net.bio.net Sat Feb 12 16:31:28 1994 > Received: from net.bio.net by mailgate.prod.aol.net with SMTP > (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA27481; Sat, 12 Feb 94 16:31:28 -0500 > Return-Path: > Received: from localhost by net.bio.net (8.6.5/IG-2.0) > id UAA15914; Thu, 10 Feb 1994 20:44:06 -0800 > Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 20:44:06 -0800 > From: mcb@net.bio.net (Michael C. Berch) > Message-Id: <199402110444.UAA15914@net.bio.net> > To: cuf@aol.com > Subject: Re: Computer & health > AOL-Member: cuf From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 02:37:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25313; Sun, 13 Feb 94 02:37:59 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25306; Sat, 12 Feb 94 18:37:52 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA00361; Sat, 12 Feb 94 18:38:09 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 12 Feb 94 18:38:09 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402130238.AA00361@apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mcb@net.bio.net Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The latest is a message from cuf@aol.com, which showed up on my two >lists and a third that I am on. It is some inexplicable twaddle about >VDT safety; interesting perhaps, but totally irrelevant to the lists. Like AOL has a patent on inexplicable twaddle on mailing lists? Like this kind of posting has never happened before? (heh heh.) Now I'm not trying to minimize the problems. Just pointing out that it's not unique to AOL. In fact, almost every gripe I've heard happens EVERY september when school comes in session, from bunches of newbies stomping lists to admins who don't respond to mail to inexplicable twaddle. The only significant different I see is that, because AOL is big and one address, it's a more noticable target. If we were to compare aol.com and *.edu, I'd bet that aol.com is larger, and *.edu causes more problems (that are harder to solve because of a more complex admin group). So if we cut aol off, I guess we should cut off *.edu, too. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 05:01:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25594; Sun, 13 Feb 94 05:01:05 GMT Received: from nextsun.INS.CWRU.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25587; Sat, 12 Feb 94 21:00:57 PST Received: by nextsun.INS.CWRU.Edu (5.65b+ida+/CWRU-1.6-freenet) id AA13894; Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:03:12 -0500 (from cf603 for list-managers@greatcircle.com) Message-Id: <9402130503.AA13894@nextsun.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 00:03:12 -0500 From: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: list needs a home Reply-To: cf603@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Sill) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a small (50 recipients) list manually out of my Cleveland Freenet account. The list is usually pretty quiet, but when it's busy (10 messages/day) it takes a good chunk of my time. I'm looking for a site running Majordomo or List Processor that would be willing to host this list with me as the list manager. Majordomo would be ideal since that's what I use a work. -- Dave Sill Ask me about the JudyBats mailing list. cf603@cleveland.freenet.edu From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 07:53:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25969; Sun, 13 Feb 94 07:53:30 GMT Received: from sun4nl.NL.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25962; Sat, 12 Feb 94 23:53:21 PST Received: from solair1.inter.NL.net by sun4nl.NL.net with SMTP id AA29996 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Sun, 13 Feb 1994 08:55:38 +0100 Received: by solair1.inter.NL.net (5.65b/NLnet1.1) id AA14914; Sun, 13 Feb 1994 08:55:37 +0100 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 08:55:36 +0100 (MET) From: BATRN Subject: Re: AOL behaviour To: Jailbait Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199402130003.TAA06078@intercon.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 12 Feb 1994, Jailbait wrote: > People should be sure to remember that there are a large number of > books suddenly appearing all over the place listing Piles and Heaps > and Gobs of various net resources - news, mail, web, gopher, etc, etc. > These books are probably selling most to people on the various commercial > services with some sort of "Internet Access" advertised...AOL/Compu$pend/ > GEnie/Delphi, etc...and it's these people who are suddenly trying to > figure out what's out there and thus deluging us. > > I have long thought that there is a serious need for /good/, /accesable/, > /readable/, and widely distributed nettiquite postings - going to each > and every new fidonet node, compu$pend user, etc... > Might this be a reasonable project to start? I am a commercial user, and have bought a library of books about the Net in order to get a feel for the do's and dont's. Mostly I have found that only a handful give the reader *some* idea of Net_Culture. All rather confusing. However, unlike users@ ... AOL//Compu$pend//GReenie or the like, I'm not pre-conditioned to be a reckless netter by the NLnet since it doesn't have the same .com internal forums like the aforementioned. Years ago I had a Compu$pend acct. I reckon that most users get used to being in their own microscopic virtual world, and can't handle (or appreciate) the privilege of having access to all the resources to be found on the net. Quite frankly, I still don't fully understand the ways, whys and wherefors of the Net and thus would welcome any such postings as suggested above, from one or more of the veterans. I believe the time spent, would ultimately be saved by not having to bother yourselves with this type of hassle anymore. Rgds, Paul Lange AKA BATRN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ BATRN using the NLnet Internet Services E-mail: batrn@inter.NL.net or BATRN@inter.NL.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ P.S. I subscribe to this list since the Co. I work for is also interested in expanding its Net_Knowledge, and is currently considering running a list directed at commercial users. The info I have read here has been informative,............,confusing at times, but informative. Thanx!! From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 15:06:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA26865; Sun, 13 Feb 94 15:06:00 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA26858; Sun, 13 Feb 94 07:05:50 PST Received: from uumind.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.19) via UUCP id AA14544 ; Sun, 13 Feb 94 10:08:05 -0500 Received: by mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 13 Feb 94 09:58:48 -0500 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by knex.via.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 13 Feb 94 09:29:34 EST for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL behaviour From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.via.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: <5kwoHc1w165w@knex.via.mind.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 09:25:28 EST In-Reply-To: <199402130003.TAA06078@intercon.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk emory!intercon.com!jailbait (Jailbait) writes: > People should be sure to remember that there are a large number of > books suddenly appearing all over the place listing Piles and Heaps > and Gobs of various net resources - news, mail, web, gopher, etc, etc. > These books are probably selling most to people on the various commercial > services with some sort of "Internet Access" advertised...AOL/Compu$pend/ > GEnie/Delphi, etc...and it's these people who are suddenly trying to > figure out what's out there and thus deluging us. > Yes. I agree. Not only is there a plethora of books and magazine articles about nets in general and internet in particular, of late I have been seeing even TV coverage all giving a somewhat glamorous view of the net. I am sure more and more people are going to access the lists via commercial services like AOL. Though it is going to increase the workload of hapless volunteer list managers and owners, it may be necessary to offer help, advice and education. Extreme measures like cutting people off should be a last resort. I myself have taken one of my lists to a semi-moderated one, returning off-topic mail and making several help files aimed at such users. > I have long thought that there is a serious need for /good/, /accesable/, > /readable/, and widely distributed nettiquite postings - going to each > and every new fidonet node, compu$pend user, etc... > Might this be a reasonable project to start? > I made an attempt some time ago to gather a complete list of commands from various list manager software [majordomo, LISTSERV, listproc and other popular packages] with a view to make a generic "Mailing List how-to" including explanation of headers, what to send to list and what to send to original poster, getting on or off lists, setting options and so on. Request to this list to send me the help file from various list manager software produced 'zero' response. So the project sort of floundered. I think such a document will go a long way towards alleviating the upcoming onslaught. People who publish lists can also publish such a help. There will still be clue less mail, but at least some people who can actually read will find it useful to help them navigate lists. Unless there is a standardized subset of commands for all lists, such a document widely distributed will be very useful - users and list owners alike. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>| Internet: gess@knex.via.mind.ORG |<><>| CDPub List Admin. |<><>| {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!uumind!knex!gess |<><>| From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 19:44:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27594; Sun, 13 Feb 94 19:44:37 GMT Received: from well.sf.ca.us by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27587; Sun, 13 Feb 94 11:44:28 PST Received: from localhost (mle@localhost) by well.sf.ca.us (8.6.5/8.6.5) id LAA02359; Sun, 13 Feb 1994 11:46:15 -0800 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 11:46:15 -0800 From: "Marcus L. Endicott" Message-Id: <199402131946.LAA02359@well.sf.ca.us> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Green.Travel Needs New Home Cc: mle@well.sf.ca.us Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I'm the founder and moderator of the Green.Travel list, dedicated to sharing information about environmentally and culturally responsible, or sustainable, tourism. Green.Travel is currently a manual alias/reflector at IGC (Institute for Global Communications), home of EcoNet and PeaceNet. The list is now 200 addresses, a good number of which are other reflectors, with both constant fluctuation and steady growth. There are several additions and deletions every day. The rate of message traffic presently consists of just a few messages each day. Three years of archives, about one megabyte, are available via ftp from igc.org . Gopher access is via the EcoGopher at ecosys.drdr.virginia.edu . Since IGC does not support any automated subscription software, this list needs a new home, one that is flexible and reliable. Any suggestions or advice would be most welcome. Thanks, - Marcus Endicott P.O.Box 20837, St. Simons, GA 31522-0437 USA Voice: (912) 265-6273 BBS: (912) 265-0784 7pm-7am EST Telex: (023) 400240522 UI Email: mendicott@igc.apc.org mle@well.sf.ca.us From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 22:03:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27840; Sun, 13 Feb 94 22:03:49 GMT Received: from relay2.geis.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27833; Sun, 13 Feb 94 14:03:39 PST Received: by relay2.geis.com (1.37.109.4/15.6) id AA24222; Sun, 13 Feb 94 20:48:46 GMT From: andy@genie.geis.com Message-Id: <9402132048.AA24222@relay2.geis.com> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 18:39:00 BST To: classm-l@brownvm.brown.edu, info-labview@pica.army.mil, list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Genie-Id: 0269173 X-Genie-From: ANDY Subject: Re: GENIE PROBLEMS Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. My name is Andy Finkenstadt. I am the GEnie Postmaster. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate if my name was Inigo Montoya. :-) First off - I apologize for each of the problems being caused directly or indirectly through the genie.geis.com domain. There were several factors contributing to the problems, and having them happen each in quick succession did not help matters at all. item 1: the "Original Msg Id not found" error message, followed by a "delivered to all recipients with NO exceptions" tag, cropped up when our parent domain (geis.com) turned on some new (and I presume debugging) code and the originating message did not contain a "Message-ID" header at the beginning of an article. Typically this occurs with many IBM VM-type systems, and none with Unix. I have recommended to the administrators of our domain that they omit that message back to the originator of the item, or that they turn on the "generate message ID" flag in sendmail. item 2: slow or non-existent answers to postmaster mail. This was caused by two things: one, the gateway was either incommunicado or overloaded and therefore mail to postmaster@genie.geis.com (aka genie-postmaster@geis.com) was blocked or very slow in getting here; two, I just happened to be moving from Florida to New York, and didn't arrange for postmaster mail to be dealt with. Mea culpa. item 3: gateway being slow or incommunicado. The leased lines between our parent domain and the Internet at large were upgraded. This created an outage situation in the first place. In the second place the upgrade didn't go quite as planned, so service was actually slower than we would have wished. This has been corrected to the best of my knowledge, and mail from the Internet to GEnie is being given higher priority than older mail. item 4: mail from gateway to GEnie slowed. This was exacerbated by the backlog created by item 3, and we are making steps to unleash a few additional servers coming into GEnie. Unfortunately this requires an upgrade to the GEnie PC Aladdin software used by a good portion of GEnie subscribers, and it is currently being tested. When it is released to the public, the new servers will be unfettered and able to deliver mail to GEnie much more quickly. Again, I apologize, and welcome any comments you have. Please direct them to either 'andy@genie.geis.com' or an alternative address 'genie@panix.com' which is my personal account here in new york city. Best regards, Andy Finkenstadt GEnie Postmaster 212-807-0165 cc: genie persons From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Feb 13 23:13:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27980; Sun, 13 Feb 94 23:13:12 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA27973; Sun, 13 Feb 94 15:13:01 PST Received: from kepler.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id ; Sun, 13 Feb 94 15:14:15 PST Received: by kepler.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11555; Sun, 13 Feb 94 15:14:15 PST Date: Sun, 13 Feb 94 15:14:15 PST Message-Id: <9402132314.AA11555@kepler.arc.nasa.gov> From: k p c To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: AOL cluelessness and net culture In-Reply-To: <9402130910.AA26093@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> References: <9402130910.AA26093@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Excellent idea about distributing nettiquette to subscribers. What I do currently (due to problems I've had with list-of-list administrators and internet book publishers not confirming nth-generation copy entries) is to try to get list-of-list administrators to ONLY include a verbatim list description and how to get more information (otherwise it gets WAY TOO corrupted each time it changes hands, just like in the Telephone Game). Then, when I get the query for information, I send out the latest announcement that describes the subject, subscriptions, archives, guidelines, basic nettiquette etc. in excruciating detail. If the potential subscriber had received incorrect information previously from an nth-generation copy, this helps correct it. I think I'd be happy to append general nettiquette to this second announcement if I can find a good summary that's small, not insulting, useful for AOL/Compuserve/Prodigy users, etc. I have just added a recommendation, inspired by this discussion, that A/C/P users seek the pdial list to find local direct net access alternatives. P.S. I never got any replies to my query a week or so ago about what list software to use. Any comments? From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 04:45:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA28720; Mon, 14 Feb 94 04:45:11 GMT Received: from cs.utexas.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA28711; Sun, 13 Feb 94 20:45:02 PST Received: from im4u.cs.utexas.edu by cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.22/mx-relay) with SMTP id AA29220; Sun, 13 Feb 94 22:47:06 -0600 Received: from chinaca by im4u.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.37/uucp) with UUCP id AA21424; Sun, 13 Feb 94 22:47:07 -0600 Received: from localhost by chinacat.unicom.com (smail3.1.28.1) id m0pVvB6-00028jC; Sun, 13 Feb 94 22:45 CST Message-Id: From: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine To: chuq@apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 22:45:00 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mcb@net.bio.net In-Reply-To: <9402130238.AA00361@apple.com> from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 12, 94 06:38:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1596 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > Now I'm not trying to minimize the problems. Just pointing out that it's not > unique to AOL. Please don't. What is unique about this onslaught is that it destroyed one of the mailing lists I run. Last week I threw in the towel and decomissioned Pubnet, a mailing list for the administration of public access Unix systems. I finally got tired of the load, and I realize after the fact (i.e. after seeing this thread) that it is direcly correlated to the AOL.COM tsunami. To put this into perspective, this is NOT the first time I've become overwhelmed by the Pubnet list. A little over a year ago, a national magazine (Online Access) told everybody to write to pubnet-request to learn how to get *free* access to the Internet. (Anybody interested in that debacle, send email to archive-server@chinacat.unicom.com with a "Subject: send pubnet-faq" header. There is a pretty good letter to the editor in the FAQ that Brendan Kehoe helped me write.) I survived all the others, but the AOL.COM denizens just proved to be too much for me. There is some sort of horrible twisted irony in losing a mailing list dedicated to public access systems due to the abuse of the community it is intended to serve. So, in closing, I'd like to give a big ``thank you, and eat shit'' to the management of AOL.COM. I'm starting to put more credence in those analogies between the Internet and CB radio. -- Chip Rosenthal 512-447-0577 | I figure the odds be fifty-fifty Unicom Systems Development | I just might have some thing to say. | -FZ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 12:45:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00627; Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:45:04 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00618; Mon, 14 Feb 94 04:44:56 PST Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id HAA18064 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:52:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199402141252.HAA18064@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 07:52:52 EST In-Reply-To: Gess Shankar "Re: A flood from America OnLine" (Feb 11, 7:53pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I also had to make "mailing list basics" help texts aimed at the > newbies, mostly aol users. Though some aol subscribers make good > contributions, most seem to be fishing aimlessly. I find this curious. AOL subscribers *pay* for their service, unlike most Internet and BITNET users. You'd think that would make them *more* likely to be serious users. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 13:19:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00735; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:19:47 GMT Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00728; Mon, 14 Feb 94 05:19:39 PST Received: from DialupEudora (ts1.noc.drexel.edu [129.25.12.13]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id IAA23674 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:21:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199402141321.IAA23674@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:22:15 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Bob Snyder) Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #20 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 22:45:00 -0600 (CST) >Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine > >Chuq Von Rospach writes: >> Now I'm not trying to minimize the problems. Just pointing out that it's not >> unique to AOL. > >Please don't. What is unique about this onslaught is that it destroyed >one of the mailing lists I run. Last week I threw in the towel and >decomissioned Pubnet, a mailing list for the administration of public >access Unix systems. So? That's not unique to AOL. The same flood could have easily come from Delphi, GEnie, CompuServe, or any of the other various commercial online services that provide Internet mail services. As you stated later, you got tired of the load. That's understandable, but I don't see how it connects to AOL. [As a aside, from my memory of my time on AOL, the rules concerning the mail service stated that members weren't to subscribe to mailing lists. But that was back in the days they were connected to the net via UUCP.....] Bob -- Bob Snyder N2KGO MIME, RIPEM mail accepted snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu finger for RIPEM public key From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 13:53:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00888; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:53:14 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00881; Mon, 14 Feb 94 05:53:02 PST Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA24739; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:55:12 EST Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11537; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:55:11 EST Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25710; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:53:21 EST Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:43:28 -0500 (EST) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Lester Maddox Ax Handle Of Prejudice Award OR Shame On You! To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199402141252.HAA18064@z.nsf.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am shocked and dismayed at the bigotry, prejudice and elitism displayed by some of those complaining about Users from AOL and/or Prodigy. Keeping with the original intent of Lester Maddox, who would hand out autographed ax handles at the doorway to his infamous resturant, the Pick-Rick, I am presenting this award to those who expressed the highest levels of intolerance, prejudice, and elitism about the People on AOL and/or Prodigy. You should be ashamed! GWALKER@RTFM.MLB.FL.US "Big brown river. . ." Tuli Kupferberg, 1963 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 15:03:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01081; Mon, 14 Feb 94 15:03:36 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01074; Mon, 14 Feb 94 07:03:19 PST Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA09969 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Mon, 14 Feb 1994 08:53:48 -0600 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA09310; 14 Feb 94 08:51:28 CST (Mon) Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 8:51:27 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9402140851.AA09310@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First of all, a clarification. I have not had any trouble personally with AOL users on my mailing lists. This may be because of the nature of my lists, or maybe because I dropped them all off, I don't know. All the problems I've had was from mail generated by the presence of the PAML on America Online. And yes, there's a direct correlation between the two. When it was posted, I had an onslaught of mail from AOL. That slowed to about half of what it was initially (after about two weeks), but never did stop. Until about 2 weeks ago, when I assume they removed the document from their system. I haven't heard a peep since then. I really don't see how you can compare aol.com with a *.edu site. The big difference is in the administration. At a *.edu site, you're most likely going to have knowledgeable people running those systems. People interested in computers to begin with. Your average *.edu site is going to be *on* the Internet! Your average *.edu user is going to have access to all this neat stuff (like ftp and telnet) and files and information. I have never received anything like this from any *.edu site, singly or collectively. Sure after each semester starts, there is a slight increase in activity on my lists, on my newsgroup, a slight increase in clueless mail, but nothing of the magnitude of what I received from aol.com. Am I being elitist? I dunno. Then again, those who accuse me of that probably didn't have to deal with the mail I received. After the 80th or 90th letter going, "I'm interested in such-n-such topic, would you please add it to the AOL Master List?" or "I'm thinking of creating a list on this topic, is that okay with you?" I was about ready to tear my hair out. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 "One problem with the Information Superhighway: more bad drivers." -- KD Leka From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 16:31:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01426; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:31:59 GMT Received: from intercon.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01414; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:30:55 PST Received: from localhost by intercon.com (Sendmail 8.6.5/940209.RS) id LAA01958; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 11:31:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 11:31:46 -0500 From: jailbait@intercon.com (Jailbait) Message-Id: <199402141631.LAA01958@intercon.com> To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Instead of tearing your hair out, you should've sent them the news.newusers.[announcements|questions] posts, or similar... (Actually, some of these regular posts do cover much of the same ground as the things I was thinking of in my previous post...Chuq: At least a couple of those are yours, no? (They're all currently expired locally...)) So...since we've identified a need...who wants to write the first draft of Ettiquite for Mailing Lists (in E-Sharp Minor)? (Actually, someplace around I have the flame (but a very polite one, I seem to remember) I once sent out saying that a list address is NOT an admin address, and that this list in particular is run by humans, not a machine and this is how to ask to get admin things done.) And once we write these, how do we want to distribute them? JB From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 16:42:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01479; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:42:11 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01472; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:42:02 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA19331; Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:44:12 -0800 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 08:44:12 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402141644.AA19331@apple.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #20 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >As you stated later, you got tired of the load. That's understandable, but >I don't see how it connects to AOL. It doesn't. And this has been my point all along. It's not AOL. AOL might just be the latest instance of a continuing problem, but stomping on AOL won't solve it. I haven't heard of ANYTHING that was specific to AOL, except that it's one of those heathen commercial services (and therefore evil). clueless users, moderator burnout, weird, irrelelvant messages -- that stuff's all been around for years. I went through moderator burnout long before any of these services popped up. I killed mailing lists because of the nastiness they generated long before AOL arrived on the scene. Now, we can use AOL as a scapegoat, or we can realize that what's really happening is that they're just the latest group of new users to run into the same old problems and push the same old buttons, and maybe see if there's something that can be done to minimize it. But we don't solve anything by making AOL a ghetto or refusing it access or anything like that. That's the moderator ego speaking, and not a solution. (and it begs the question: why are some mailing lists not seeing this? What are they doing right that others can adopt? that's a more useful discussion than how evil AOL is and how clueless their users are. Clueless users are endemic on internet, and always will be. The trick is figuring out how to mainstream them and get them educated). From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 09:33:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01791; Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:15:58 GMT Received: from walt.disney.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01780; Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:15:37 PST Received: from dalsdb by walt.disney.com with SMTP id AA16038 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:17:35 -0800 Received: from joanna.wdp_animation by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0pW6ub-000FaKC; Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:16 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:16 PST To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLIne From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I also had to make "mailing list basics" help texts aimed at the > newbies, mostly aol users. Though some aol subscribers make good > contributions, most seem to be fishing aimlessly. I have taken to > posting the help text periodically to avoid the constant "how do I get > off this stinking list? I am drowning in email" email. I, too, have received a lot of new subscription requests from aol users. Haven't had any problems, though. What I do when a new subscription starts is send out the lists' FAQ and the last two issues (the lists I run are both digest-only) so the new folks know what they're getting into. Works out really well. Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 544 2683 (voice) Glendale, CA +1 818 544 4579 (fax) From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 09:33:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01763; Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:14:49 GMT Received: from midway.uchicago.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01756; Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:14:21 PST Received: from kimbark.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for List-Managers@greatcircle.com Mon, 14 Feb 94 11:16:30 CST Received: from localhost.uchicago.edu by kimbark.uchicago.edu (4.1/UCCO-1.0A) id AA20035; Mon, 14 Feb 94 11:15:27 CST Message-Id: <9402141715.AA20035@kimbark.uchicago.edu> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Netiquette project In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 13 Feb 94 01:10:06 PST." <9402130910.AA26093@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 11:15:25 -0600 From: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cast my vote in favor of: > I have long thought that there is a serious need for /good/, /accesable/, > /readable/, and widely distributed nettiquite postings - going to each > and every new fidonet node, compu$pend user, etc... > Might this be a reasonable project to start? Allow me to point out that the combined total weight of "newbies", on both newly-Internetted commercial sites (AOL Prodigy etc.) and new students getting on to *.edu for the first time, is only going to increase, probably geometrically or exponentially, while the weight of us old "guru" types, knowledgeable old-timers (ARPAnet, pre Internet), and "good net citizens" is going to grow at a much slower pace. We can only hope to help stimulate the development of new future good net citizens out of today's "clueless newbies".... So developing a pro-active, prophylactic strategy, establishing a pattern of supplying massive doses of "netiquette education" continually and repeatedly to every outlet where a newbie is going to be "jacking in", is going to be a necessity rather than a luxury for us who have to administer any portion of the Net. And you have to hit them more than once, because they probably won't get it the first time (that's also the theory in Advertising, repetition hammers the point home into our subconscious :-). Merely banning AOL.com users from your mailing list might be a temporary stopgap to help you and your list subscribers today; replying to the postmaster of every MAKE.MONEY.FAST article might be a partial stopgap on netnews; but it's going to be a "Whack-A-Mole" game that will never end. So definitely, reaching out to the people and enlisting their help, turning them on to how they can use the Net without polluting it, BEFORE they become Net.Problems, is really the only choice for the long run. Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu, ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Academic Information Technologies 1-312-702-8189 (campus extension 2-8189) FAX 1-312-702-3219 GCS/MU d p--@ -p+ c++@ l u++@ e++ m* s+/+ n++ h--- f? g+- w++ t++ r- y* From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 17:56:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02161; Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:56:10 GMT Received: from walt.disney.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02153; Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:55:41 PST Received: from dalsdb by walt.disney.com with SMTP id AA16804 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:57:50 -0800 Received: from joanna.wdp_animation by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0pW7XZ-000FaKC; Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:57 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:57 PST To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Future Tsunamis From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Please don't. What is unique about this onslaught is that it destroyed > one of the mailing lists I run. Last week I threw in the towel and > decomissioned Pubnet, a mailing list for the administration of public > access Unix systems. > > I finally got tired of the load, and I realize after the fact (i.e. after > seeing this thread) that it is direcly correlated to the AOL.COM tsunami. This is interesting. If you think the load is high because of AOL, what is it going to be like when the so-called information superhighway starts becoming a reality? One of my lists is at 1200 subscribers, currently. What can I expect in the next few years? What can we all expect in the next few years? Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 544 2683 (voice) Glendale, CA +1 818 544 4579 (fax) From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 10:06:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02281; Mon, 14 Feb 94 18:00:57 GMT Received: from acad3.alaska.edu (aurora.alaska.edu) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02265; Mon, 14 Feb 94 10:00:45 PST Received: from mr.alaska.edu by acad3.alaska.edu (PMDF V4.2-11 #3250) id <01H8VC5VEPA88WYG53@acad3.alaska.edu>; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:02:19 -900 Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:02:03 -900 Mr-Received: by mta ACAD3A; Relayed; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:02:03 -0900 Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:02:04 -0900 From: "John W. Redelfs" Subject: GEnie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <01H8VC5WCGK68WYG53@mr.alaska.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X400-Mts-Identifier: [;30209041204991/2790708@ACAD3A] Hop-Count: 0 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Fellow List Members, Now that I've listened to a flood of mail ragging on AOL, may I ask if any of you have been getting massive bounce messages from GEnie? Many of the members of both my lists are relatively new users with email access to the Internet from GEnie. Apparently, GEnie has had some serious difficulties this past week or two with one of their servers down. It has caused an enormous amount of mischief on my lists because my subscribers have blamed me for problems caused by GEnie. We ought to remember that all these newbies aren't just a problem for us. The online services aren't used to dealing with such numbers of new users either, at least not on the Internet. They run promotions, but how are they supposed to know in advance when a critical mass is reached in the greater culture leading to all these inexperienced users wanting Internet access? I actually saw a new magazine at the local supermarket this month aimed at Internet users. And I'm in a remote roadless area of southeast Alaska. Has anyone had GEnie problems lately? I think the problems I've had were caused by the computer people at GEnie and _not_ the newbies. -------- All my opinions are tentative pending further data. ------- ------------- John W. Redelfs, tsjwr@aurora.alaska.edu ------------- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 10:33:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02315; Mon, 14 Feb 94 18:06:39 GMT Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02303; Mon, 14 Feb 94 10:06:21 PST Message-Id: <9402141806.AA02303@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: sullivan@fa.disney.com Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Future Tsunamis In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 14 Feb 94 09:57 PST Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 10:06:18 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # > I finally got tired of the load, and I realize after the fact (i.e. after # > seeing this thread) that it is direcly correlated to the AOL.COM tsunami. # # This is interesting. If you think the load is high because of AOL, what # is it going to be like when the so-called information superhighway starts # becoming a reality? One of my lists is at 1200 subscribers, currently. # What can I expect in the next few years? What can we all expect in the # next few years? Here's a rule of thumb that's held more-or-less true for most numeric metrics concerning the Internet for a long time (at least the last 10 years): once something reaches a steady growth state (i.e., after an initial burst when it's introduced), it doubles every 12-18 months. Obviously, this is a hell of a generalization, but it applies amazingly well to just about any metric you can think of: number of users, number of sites, number of domains, number of messages processed by gateway, number of packets passed, ... So, ask yourself: can I deal with double the number of users and double the volume in 12 months? If not, should I invest some time _now_ in automating things, _before_ a crisis comes? -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 19:30:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02972; Mon, 14 Feb 94 19:30:22 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02956; Mon, 14 Feb 94 11:29:59 PST Received: from mogate.sps.mot.com by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA15773; Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:32:05 MST Received: from motsps.sps.mot.com (sps.mot.com) by mogate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA18398; Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:32:03 MST Received: from risc.sps.mot.com by motsps.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.1) id AA28292; Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:32:01 MST Received: from akamai.sps.mot.com by risc.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA11177; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:31:59 CST Received: by akamai.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28330; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:31:58 CST From: jjoy@akamai.sps.mot.com (Jennifer Joy) Message-Id: <9402141931.AA28330@akamai.sps.mot.com> Subject: waves of the future? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:31:57 CST In-Reply-To: ; from "GreatCircle.COM!List-Managers-Owner" at Feb 14, 94 9:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11b] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > Please don't. What is unique about this onslaught is that it destroyed > > one of the mailing lists I run. Last week I threw in the towel and > > decomissioned Pubnet, a mailing list for the administration of public > > access Unix systems. > > > > I finally got tired of the load, and I realize after the fact (i.e. after > > seeing this thread) that it is direcly correlated to the AOL.COM tsunami. > > This is interesting. If you think the load is high because of AOL, what > is it going to be like when the so-called information superhighway starts > becoming a reality? One of my lists is at 1200 subscribers, currently. > What can I expect in the next few years? What can we all expect in the > next few years? Do you all remember when Eugene Spafford threw in his towel? He wrote a pretty good letter about how the net (Usenet news) had grown, and how people weren't paying attention to Emily Postnews anymore, and why he just didn't think it was worth his time to maintain his postings since it didn't seem like people bothered to read them (someone else did pick them up). (What, read a group for a few weeks/days before I ask my question?) (What, be polite? think first, flame later?) (What, find the FAQ?) It is hard, I think, not to become jaded, or wish for they way things were. It's only going to get worse. As I was in a mall yesterday seeing all sorts of rudeness (don't people even *think* about others anymore) I couldn't help but wonder when the masses decend all thinking about ME where it all will lead. We just moved to a 2GB spool for news, and we don't carry pictures or a long expire -- the 1GB was floundering. I'm on way too many mailing lists, and I run into people from all over who don't know what to do. The quality of the lists have not declined like the quality of the news groups, but this may just be a matter of time. The main noise is misdirected administrative requests. Maybe part of our hope is software that can help manage the load. [dreaming time..] Perhaps some sort of universal list interface that would let people (through a GUI of some sort) look though back issues, let them hit the subscribe, post, or unsubscribe button (and do the right thing for that list), or find out vital statistics (how many members, messages per day, etc.). Hmm, but I have to admit thinking of making it easier to join a list scares me. Maybe it is time to consider trying to get more standard verbal interfaces? I will not be surprised if "private" Usenets pop up, as well as select lists. Not any time soon, perhaps, but stratification seems to happen when you begin to reach such a large group things become unmanageable. Some solutions i have seen include sending new people some guidelines, and an FAQ. One list I tend to disagree with (on its philosophy of subscriptions) makes people "agree" to the conditions he sends out, before he will sign them up. That is a bit extreme, but I imagine the two-step process helps get the more serious people. Just some rambling thoughts, jennifer -- Jennifer Joy sys/net admin Motorola/RISC HW Austin,TX jjoy@risc.sps.mot.com 512.891.8561 pgr:928.7447 #9561 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 20:04:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03078; Mon, 14 Feb 94 20:04:07 GMT Received: from fender.pica.army.mil by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03071; Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:03:54 PST Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 15:07:13 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: waves of the future? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-Id: <9402141507.aa03460@fender.Pica.Army.Mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jennifer Joy wrote: >I'm on way too many mailing lists, and I run into people from all over >who don't know what to do. The quality of the lists have not declined >like the quality of the news groups, but this may just be a matter of >time. The main noise is misdirected administrative requests. I agree wrt the misdirected admin requests. It's not so bad when they're new subscribers, but when people don't bother to save the newuser banner specifically asking them to use the -request address... My latest thriller is to see mailing list traffic exceed 10 msg/day and have folks asking you to make it into a newsgroup:-{ By way of intro, I'm Tom Coradeschi. I manage the Info-LabVIEW and Igor mailing lists. LabVIEW is a data acquisition, analysis and control package, runs on Macs, Sparcs and Windows machines. We've got 369 subscribed to the basic list, with 189 subscribed to the digest version. Traffic runs 10-20 msgs/day. Igor is a data analysis/plotting package for the Mac. 184 subscribed - traffic is 2-3 msgs/week (talk about apples and oranges). Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 21:24:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03382; Mon, 14 Feb 94 21:24:30 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03375; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:24:23 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA27678; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:26:36 -0800 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:26:36 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402142126.AA27678@apple.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, info-labview-request@Pica.Army.Mil Subject: Re: waves of the future? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >My latest thriller is to see mailing list traffic exceed 10 msg/day and >have folks asking you to make it into a newsgroup:-{ That's one reason why I put digest versions available. But as a matter of fact, both my lists DO have alt.* groups avaialble, and as far as I can tell, everyone still uses the lists. And I tell folks that if they want a newsgroup, they're welcome to go get it started, but that I won't do it for them. (and no, I won't gateway if it's created. I find that tends to create the worst of both worlds, not the best). From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 22:16:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03608; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:16:34 GMT Received: from pooh.ucsf.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03601; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:16:09 PST Received: from localhost by pooh.ucsf.edu (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id OAA29522; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:18:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199402142218.OAA29522@pooh.ucsf.edu> Subject: Re: waves of the future? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:18:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9402141931.AA28330@akamai.sps.mot.com> from "Jennifer Joy" at Feb 14, 94 01:31:57 pm From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2020 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not much to do with mailing lists. I suppose followups should go to news.future or alt.culture.internet or wherever the Imminent Death of the Net thread is going on now? > From: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu > So definitely, reaching out to the people and enlisting their help, > turning them on to how they can use the Net without polluting it, > BEFORE they become Net.Problems, is really the only choice for the > long run. This sounds like the responsibility of the commercial providers to warn their users that there is a rest of the world out there (e.g., that the Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists is not the AOL PAML). It is also their responsibility to educate their users before unleashing them on us. They should not only make available news.announce.newusers-like hand-holding FAQs for their users, they should push them heavily. This would presumably be part of the 'value-added' service they offer, and net-savviness training would then be a selling point for the commercial services. Instead, their users are like people who have just been let out of the closet they've been locked in all their lives. > From: jjoy@akamai.sps.mot.com (Jennifer Joy) > Maybe part of our hope is software that can help manage the load. > [dreaming time..] > Perhaps some sort of universal list interface that would let people > (through a GUI of some sort) look though back issues, let them hit > the subscribe, post, or unsubscribe button (and do the right thing > for that list), Sounds like a description of Usenet. Although I see why mailing lists are still necessary (and their numbers seem to be growing), they seem like a giant step backwards from netnews, at least in terms of user-interface. Perhaps in the future the distinction between types of resources will disappear? You won't care if you're reading newsgroups (cached on the local system), mailing lists (cached in my mailbox), or currently-unsubscribed mailing lists (cached on some foreign machine)? Hope so. john troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 22:22:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03661; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:22:42 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03654; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:22:27 PST Received: from uumind.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.19) via UUCP id AB20468 ; Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:24:44 -0500 Received: by mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 14 Feb 94 15:04:39 -0500 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by knex.via.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:21:01 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.via.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:08:20 EST In-Reply-To: <199402141252.HAA18064@z.nsf.gov> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk emory!nsf.gov!mmorse (Michael H. Morse) writes: > > I also had to make "mailing list basics" help texts aimed at the > > newbies, mostly aol users. Though some aol subscribers make good > > contributions, most seem to be fishing aimlessly. > > I find this curious. AOL subscribers *pay* for their service, unlike > most Internet and BITNET users. You'd think that would make them > *more* likely to be serious users. > May be so. But some users seem to want to subscribe to lists, don't pay any attention to responses describing the charter of the list, instructions and so forth and then find the traffic too much or irrelevant. While this is not restricted only to AOL users, these are the most frequent in one of the lists I run. I think list-owners may have an enormous education job, unless the services themselves do their part. As the net gets more and more commercial and cheaper, this phenomenon will increase. List owners with subject matters of general interest will have to put up or close shop. Price of progress. :) GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>| Internet: gess@knex.via.mind.ORG |<><>| CDPub List Admin. |<><>| {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!uumind!knex!gess |<><>| From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 22:41:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03906; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:41:38 GMT Received: from spiff.ccs.carleton.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03867; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:39:50 PST Received: by spiff.ccs.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0-mcr) id AA19498; Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:42:32 EST Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 17:42:32 EST From: mcr@ccs.carleton.ca (Michael Richardson) Message-Id: <9402142242.AA19498@spiff.ccs.carleton.ca> Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM To: jjoy@akamai.sps.mot.com In-Reply-To: Jennifer Joy's message of Mon, 14 Feb 94 13:31:57 CST <9402141931.AA28330@akamai.sps.mot.com> Subject: waves of the future? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Jennifer" == Jennifer Joy writes: Jennifer> the lists have not declined like the quality of the news Jennifer> groups, but this may just be a matter of time. The main Jennifer> noise is misdirected administrative requests. Things like smart redistribution programs (like resend, distribute, etc..), and automated answering machines (request-answer) go a long way, I'd say. (Okay, I have a majordomo bias) A former ocunix.on.ca host was on a Linux mailing list. When they quit the domain (and became resudox.net actually) the Linux mail started bouncing. We are supposed to establish a no-incremental cost connection (UUCP), but that hasn't been established. The bounces were going to the -request address. No change after several weeks. I contacted the -request address. A week passes. No answer. I tried again, cc postmaster. No answer. I cc'ed the postmaster again, suggesting that their list moderator was either asleep or -request was going to /dev/null, or... I said "I would take appropriate action" [this was a daily 10k digest, and was costing us money, we are just a small co-op]. That got a response from the postmaster, suggesting that I was rude and he'd take "appropriate" action. I then thanked him for responding, because then I knew who to complain about. That evening, my machine bounced a message that ack'ed the addresses removal. This list has these "channel" things. I don't know what software provides it, nor do I really care to find out. However, getting dead users off mailing lists is hard. Very hard. The bit.listserv, info.* are very useful in that respect. We have 'culist' groups at Carleton, and ocunix has 'ocunix.mail' groups for really esoteric things we can't get as one of the above groups. This, potentially, is one of the very useful things about the listproc IP interface: the ability for a user to get off all lists with one fell swoop. The admin interface to it is too complicated for my liking though, and I don't like code that doesn't have a 'make install' stage. Jennifer> I will not be surprised if "private" Usenets pop up, as Jennifer> well as select lists. Not any time soon, perhaps, but Jennifer> stratification seems to happen when you begin to reach Jennifer> such a large group things become unmanageable. "Best-of" usenet has been talked about for a long time, but will probably require widespread use of PGP/RIPEM. Orson Scott Card paints an interesting picture in "Ender's Game" --- a very useful model even if his story was written in the late seventies, and without knowledge of the developing thing called "usenet" Jennifer> Just some rambling thoughts, jennifer Ditto. Jennifer> -- Jennifer Joy sys/net admin Motorola/RISC HW Austin,TX Jennifer> jjoy@risc.sps.mot.com 512.891.8561 pgr:928.7447 #9561 Two GIGs of news? Hmm. -- :!mcr!: HOME: mcr@sandelman.ocunix.on.ca +1 613 788 2600 3853 Michael Richardson WORK: mcr@ccs.carleton.ca (Conservation Ecology) Here is an HTML reference to my bio. foreach $X ("E-Journal","NetBSD","Perl","Physics") { print "MCR hacks $X\n"; }; From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 22:44:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03927; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:44:09 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03918; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:43:57 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA08814; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:46:07 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:46:07 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402142246.AA08814@apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu Subject: Re: waves of the future? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >It is also their responsibility to educate their users before unleashing >them on us. They should not only make available news.announce.newusers-like >hand-holding FAQs for their users, they should push them heavily. Let us remember for a second that AOL, our current lackey running dog, has seen growth from 300,000 to 600,000 members in the space of a few months, much higher than expected. As anyone who's spent time on usenet knows (or who's lived through a mailing list that explodes in size for some reason), best intentions sometimes go out the window for a while until you can drain the swamp and kill the alligators. So lets not pillory them for not being pro-active in a situation where they're lucky to be keeping the nostrils above water, because I doubt sincerely ANY set of admins would be able to handle the situation any better. let's wait until they get things under control and then pillory them when they screw up.. (hehe)., Again, not to beat on .edu too much, but every september, the net is flooded with a wave of newbies, and every september, it takes a while for the net to get them under control and their admins (except for the ones that refuse to deal with the situation completely) to calm them down adn get them to read the FAQs. When foobar.edu finds himself with 200 new accounts in a week, it's hard for him to sit down with each and walk them through the ropes, too. The same thing is happening on the bigger services, but on a bigger scale. And one fact of life is that the Internet IS rapidly going mainstream. We're not a quiet little secret between ourselves and 2,000,000 of our close friends any more, and we're crazy if we keep pretending that if we ignore them, they'll go away. What they'll do is drown us and shove us out the side door as irrelevant. We need to know how to be ready for them, to mainstream them into OUR internet, and to figure out ways of handling an Internet that's going to be 10,000,000 people and making regular news items in Time and the New York Times (which, frankly, means that sooner or later, someone's going to have to deal with some of the shadier aspects of the net, because we can't hide it from visibility too much longer. So far, the kiddie porn, the feethly pictures and the copyirght and piracy stuff has all been played to smaller papers and regional markets. Wait until it makes it into Newsweek or the NBC nightly news...) >Instead, their users are like people who have just been let out >of the closet they've been locked in all their lives. Just like almost every new Internet user I've ever met.... >Sounds like a description of Usenet. Although I see why mailing lists are >still necessary (and their numbers seem to be growing), they seem like >a giant step backwards from netnews, at least in terms of user-interface. The reason I use mailing lists is for noise control. Since it takes an active response to get on a list, and there's actually a god that can (gasp) kick the miscreants off and force them to play nice if needed, it causes people to work better together. Until usenet allows for that kind of thing, mailing lists will continue to exist. Some folks like anarchy. I prefer getting work done and having intelligent conversations. Those are had to do on usenet. (and moderation isn't the answer). >Perhaps in the future the distinction between types of resources will >disappear? At some point, when reader technology makes it easier to filter the noise, we won't need other solutions to act as filters, be it mailing lists or moderators. Then things will start merging, I think. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 22:46:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03975; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:46:39 GMT Received: from soda.berkeley.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03960; Mon, 14 Feb 94 14:46:01 PST Received: from localhost.Berkeley.EDU (localhost.Berkeley.EDU [127.0.0.1]) by soda.berkeley.edu (8.6.5/PHILMAIL-1.10) with SMTP id OAA13528; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:48:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199402142248.OAA13528@soda.berkeley.edu> To: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: waves of the future? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:18:22 PST." <199402142218.OAA29522@pooh.ucsf.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 14:48:05 -0800 From: "Shannon D. Appel" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Perhaps in the future the distinction between types of resources will >disappear? You won't care if you're reading newsgroups >(cached on the local system), mailing lists (cached in my >mailbox), or currently-unsubscribed mailing lists (cached on some foreign >machine)? > >Hope so. I think you miss at least part of the point of mailing lists. If I'm running a mailing list, it's usually because I'd like to see a smaller, more dedicated and more polite group of people discussing an issue. I _WANT_ people to have to make at least some effort to subscribe to a list (more than just hitting 'g'). I _WANT_ people to realize that anything they send is going into people's mailboxes. I consider these benefits of mailing lists, because they keep the community smaller and less anonymous. If these distinctions went away, I wouldn't see much point in running mailing lists rather than newsgroups. Shannon From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Feb 14 23:56:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04214; Mon, 14 Feb 94 23:56:57 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04207; Mon, 14 Feb 94 15:56:49 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id SAA05084; Mon, 14 Feb 1994 18:04:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199402142304.SAA05084@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Feb 1994 13:08:20 EST." Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 18:04:37 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The net is growing so large that we need to automate list management tasks as much as possible, and we need to assume that users know essentially nothing. List management software needs to be built with such users in mind. "Essentially nothing" probably means "the mailing address of the list". We should not assume that someone who has found out about a list knows such mundane details as the difference between a list address and a -request address, what commands to use, or even what the list is for and what kind of traffic is acceptable. So I'd probably want list manager software to remember who had posted to any particular list, and for anyone who had never posted before, return a help message instead of posting. The help message would describe the purpose of the list and what kinds of traffic were acceptable, who could subscribe, how to subscribe, how to get help, etc. (This feature would have to be carefully coded to avoid bad interactions with netnews.) Other things I'd like to see: + a uniform command interface (for things like subscribe/unsubscribe etc) + greater uniformity in how list exploders do header munging + a standard format for list archiving (accessible by imap4 and maybe nntp) + education for the net.third.world (e.g. AOL) explaining the cultural, differences between an Internet list and whatever-they-are-used to. Keith From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 00:42:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04378; Tue, 15 Feb 94 00:42:04 GMT Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04370; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:41:52 PST Received: by apple.com (5.61/8-Oct-1993-eef) id AA24333; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:44:10 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:44:10 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach Message-Id: <9402150044.AA24333@apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So I'd probably want list manager software to remember who had posted to any >particular list, and for anyone who had never posted before, return a help >message instead of posting. Actually, the list manager should do this for anyone not ON the list, giving an overview and "how to sign up" message. That also deals with a pet peeve of mine, people who post to lists they're not members of. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 00:46:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04413; Tue, 15 Feb 94 00:46:10 GMT Received: from panix.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04406; Mon, 14 Feb 94 16:46:02 PST Received: by panix.com id AA10061 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 14 Feb 1994 19:47:54 -0500 From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199402150047.AA10061@panix.com> Subject: Re: GEnie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 19:47:53 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1387 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk GEnie > From: "John W. Redelfs" > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 09:02:04 -0900 > Subject: GEnie > Dear Fellow List Members, > Now that I've listened to a flood of mail ragging on AOL, may I ask if > any of you have been getting massive bounce messages from GEnie? Many > of the members of both my lists are relatively new users with email > access to the Internet from GEnie. Apparently, GEnie has had some > serious difficulties this past week or two with one of their servers > down. It has caused an enormous amount of mischief on my lists because > my subscribers have blamed me for problems caused by GEnie. I just posted a somewhat overview-ish explanation of each of the problems caused by, or exacerbated by, the outages and waylaid upgrades with the GEnie gateway. > Has anyone had GEnie problems lately? I think the problems I've had > were caused by the computer people at GEnie and _not_ the newbies. I don't know yet if the problem has been fixed. My mailbox on GEnie currently has over 600 items waiting for me to deal with. I tend to scan for "URGENT" in the subject heading, and then start at the beginning. Uninteresting subjected mail, such as "Returned mail: user unknown" tends to get my last priority for the night, such as at midnight when I finally complete handling GEnie subscriber mail. Andy GEnie Postmaster From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 04:05:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05198; Tue, 15 Feb 94 04:05:06 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05189; Mon, 14 Feb 94 20:04:56 PST Received: from uumind.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.19) via UUCP id AA14031 ; Mon, 14 Feb 94 23:07:07 -0500 Received: by mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 14 Feb 94 20:28:32 -0500 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by knex.via.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 14 Feb 94 19:24:26 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: waves of the future? From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.via.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 19:05:12 EST In-Reply-To: <9402142126.AA27678@apple.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > That's one reason why I put digest versions available. But as a matter of > fact, both my lists DO have alt.* groups avaialble, and as far as I can > tell, everyone still uses the lists. And I tell folks that if they want a > newsgroup, they're welcome to go get it started, but that I won't do it for > them. (and no, I won't gateway if it's created. I find that tends to create > the worst of both worlds, not the best). > I agree with this policy and I follow the same. Two of the prime advantages of mailing lists are: (1) A small, but involved community of subscribers to keep the subject matter at hand focussed and topical and (2) the fact that it is mail as opposed to news tends to keep the signal-to-noise at a comfortable level. (Currently a third advantage is: ability to participate from commercial services like CI$, GEnie, AOL [here we go again] etc, as these people cannot access news [at least for now]. But ironic to bring this up in view of the recent discussion about AOL et al). I have valuable subscribers from CI$, MCIMail and yes, even AOL. Mailing lists provide a more intimate and somewhat less anonymous atmosphere, which gets totally lost when the list gets gatewayed to news. The resulting noise and higher volume of traffic tend to drive subscribers away... especially the ones the list managers want to keep. Anyway thanks to this AOL episode, this list is seeing a sudden burst of activity. Time to make it a newsgroup, eh? ;-) GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>| Internet: gess@knex.via.mind.ORG |<><>| CDPub List Admin. |<><>| {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!uumind!knex!gess |<><>| From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 05:10:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05311; Tue, 15 Feb 94 05:10:19 GMT Received: from panix.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05304; Mon, 14 Feb 94 21:10:07 PST Received: from DialupEudora (panix2.panix.com) by panix.com with SMTP id AA22843 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 15 Feb 1994 00:11:31 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 00:11:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199402150511.AA22843@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Braun) Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine + Netiquette Post Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So...since we've identified a need...who wants to write the first draft of >Ettiquite for Mailing Lists (in E-Sharp Minor)? This is all close to my heart. When I put together my book one of the things that continually knawed at my soul was all the hell I might end up causing to the readers of this list. So, if I can get permission from my publisher (and I don't think that should be too hard), I'd like to offer all of the netiquette sections of my book as a place to start (which I'd be happy to put together and post to this list). Any takers? -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Braun gbs@panix.com The Internet Directory directory@glassbead.com From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 05:24:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05422; Tue, 15 Feb 94 05:24:55 GMT Received: from mindvox.phantom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05415; Mon, 14 Feb 94 21:24:47 PST Received: by mindvox.phantom.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23666; Tue, 15 Feb 94 00:30:25 EST Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 00:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Dickey Subject: Re: A flood from America OnLine + Netiquette Post To: Eric Braun Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199402150511.AA22843@panix.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 15 Feb 1994, Eric Braun wrote: > causing to the readers of this list. So, if I can get permission from my > publisher (and I don't think that should be too hard), I'd like to offer > all of the netiquette sections of my book as a place to start (which I'd be > happy to put together and post to this list). Any takers? I'll take! We need it badly. --Aaron PS-- When's the next edition of your book coming out? I ask because: a) None of my lists are in there , and b) I spilled a bottle of Coke all over it and now it looks like a 10-year-old copy of the World Almanac. Heh.. __ Aaron Dickey kieran@phantom.com,kieran@mountain.net Manager of: ABC's World News Now Discussion List, West Virginia Discussion List, NUTWORKS:The Next Generation From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Feb 15 06:13:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05526; Tue, 15 Feb 94 06:13:54 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA05519; Mon, 14 Feb 94 22:13:42 PST Message-Id: <9402150613.AA05519@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 94 01:13 EST From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Future Tsunamis Content-Type: text X-Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories/AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services X-Trademark: PersonaLink(sm) is a service mark of AT&T Content-Length: 3733 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Sullivan (sullivan@fa.disney.com) writes: > This is interesting. If you think the load is high because of AOL, what > is it going to be like when the so-called information superhighway starts > becoming a reality? I'm a little slow; it only just now occurred to me that the project I'm on (AT&T PersonaLink Services) is going to be one of the next sources of neophytes, the new drivers on the superhighway. (We're working with General Magic, Sony, Motorola, and other companies to produce the next generation of PDAs, but putting the emphasis on communications instead of trying to make stylus-on-glass replace pen-on-paper. We're hoping to make electronic messaging far eas