From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 01:41:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA18380; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:41:11 GMT Received: from christ.acu.edu.au by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA18374; Tue, 31 May 1994 18:40:45 -0700 Received: by christ.acu.edu.au id AA08396 (5.65c/IDA-1.3.5/LTU-1.0 for list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com); Wed, 1 Jun 1994 11:40:54 +1000 From: Vera Henriksen Message-Id: <199406010140.AA08396@christ.acu.edu.au> Subject: Need info. Please help. To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 11:40:54 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I am looking for the FAQ of this group or any information how to setup the digest feature in majordomo. Any advices woull be appreciated. Thank in advance. Vera -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Vera Henriksen (CE) ~ ~ vera@christ.acu.edu.au ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Det er det ~~ From list-managers-owner Tue May 31 19:02:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA18498; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 01:59:21 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA18491; Tue, 31 May 1994 18:59:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199406010159.SAA18491@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Vera Henriksen cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 1 Jun 94 11:40:54 EST Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 18:59:12 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vera Henriksen writes: # # Hi all, # # I am looking for the FAQ of this group or any information how to setup # the digest feature in majordomo. Any advices woull be appreciated. # # Thank in advance. WHERE did people suddenly get the idea the List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is the right place to ask for help with Majordomo installations? This is the second such misguided posting today. List-Managers is for the discussion of general issues related to mailing list management, such as policy, procedures, and comparitive software analysis. Questions about a specific mailing list management package (ListServ, ListProc, Majordomo, etc.) should go the the support mailing list for that specific package. In the case of Majordomo, this is Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 02:37:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id CAA18714; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 02:37:17 GMT Received: from clsn1231.noble.mass.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA18702; Tue, 31 May 1994 19:36:08 -0700 Received: by clsn1231.noble.mass.edu (5.61/3.01) id AA02739; Tue, 31 May 94 22:35:39 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 22:28:25 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth Thomsen Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199406010159.SAA18491@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 31 May 1994, Brent Chapman wrote: > > WHERE did people suddenly get the idea the > List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is the right place to ask for help with > Majordomo installations? This is the second such misguided posting > today. But isn't this one of life's little ironies-- it seems that a major responsibility for anyone trying to run a list is wondering where people suddenly get the idea that *this* list is suitable for *that* posting, in defiance of all logic. Too much to expect that even a list of list-owners could escape! Elizabeth Thomsen Library Mangement Associates Listowner : Boston-book, Trollope, Benson and Bronte (all at majordomo@world.std.com) From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 03:48:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA19059; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 03:48:52 GMT Received: from sparc.acu.edu.au by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA19053; Tue, 31 May 1994 20:48:41 -0700 Received: from localhost (thanh@localhost) by sparc.acu.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id NAA03435; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 13:47:52 +1000 Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 13:47:51 +1000 (EST) From: "Thanh H. Huynh" Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. To: Brent Chapman cc: Vera Henriksen , list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199406010159.SAA18491@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Take it easy man ! Are you sure you alsway did the right things? ______________________________________________ Thanh H. Huynh (Christ - ACU) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ thanh@sparc.acu.edu.au Phone : +61 3 563-3711 Fax : +61 3 563-3605 ----------------------- I'm still learning --- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On Tue, 31 May 1994, Brent Chapman wrote: > > WHERE did people suddenly get the idea the > List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is the right place to ask for help with > Majordomo installations? This is the second such misguided posting > today. > > List-Managers is for the discussion of general issues related to > mailing list management, such as policy, procedures, and comparitive > software analysis. Questions about a specific mailing list management > package (ListServ, ListProc, Majordomo, etc.) should go the the > support mailing list for that specific package. In the case of > Majordomo, this is Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM. > > > -Brent > -- > Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about > Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security > +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates > From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 04:21:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id EAA19168; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 04:21:34 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA19162; Tue, 31 May 1994 21:21:26 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA04367 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 31 May 1994 21:23:04 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA23133 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Tue, 31 May 1994 21:23:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199406010423.AA23133@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Advice on switching mailing list software Date: Tue, 31 May 94 21:23:03 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I currently have a very large mailing list (approx 1700 subscribers, 50K a day in traffic, regular and digest options) that I run manually (with a little help from MH, procmail, and shell scripts). The mailinglist package SmartList (companion to procmail) has come of age (i.e. incorporating all the features I wish) and I plan to switch the list over in the near future. I'm not sure about the best way to go about doing this. The distribution list of SmartList is not compatible with my current list and the sendmail aliases will have to be changed. Additionally, the current directions for subscribing/unsubscribing to the list will no longer be valid. My inclination is to choose another mailing name for the list and set up that list using the new software and have everyone resubscribe. Then put an auto-replier on the old address with the new directions and send out admin changes to the various places I know that list my list. Thing is, I'd really like to keep the name. I could switch back again to the first name (just moving the distribution list this time, not having folks have to resubscribe), but this would require sending out mailinglist admin changes twice to the various places that mention my list. Not good. I also don't want to bother my sysadmin for alias changes more than necessary. I suppose I could move the current list to a new name (which would require changing all my scripts to reflect this) and set up SmartList on current name. Biggest problem with this approach is that currently both regular and digest on/off requests go to one request address (fatfree-request) and with my new software, digest requests must go to a seperate request address (probably fatfree-d-request). Anyone else go through a software change on their list? Any advice? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 15:05:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA22375; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 15:05:44 GMT Received: from CVI.HAHNEMANN.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA22369; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 08:05:36 -0700 Received: by cvi.hahnemann.edu (MX V3.3 VAX) id 29028; Wed, 01 Jun 1994 10:55:19 EDT Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 10:55:09 EDT From: "Anthony J. Rzepela" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: <0097F4C5.27D64EC0.29028@cvi.hahnemann.edu> Subject: Publishing scavengers -- any experiences so far? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Although the topic of copyrights, etc. wrt FAQs and USENET postings is one that's worn fairly thin by now, what is the current thinking on the content of mailing list traffic? Who *does* it belong to? Is it public domain? Can it even be considered email, even though email channels are used to distribute it? What about alternative, electronic archives of list traffic? What about a very selective archive in which your material (and several other interesting contributions) has singled out for "archive" storage? Newspapers (real ones, with lawyers) already quote USENET postings, but email list traffic, once it starts to become the dominant mode of interchange as USENET slowly chokes to death, will be a much more productive mine for primary source material. Does anyone here coyright hir list's traffic? ++Tony, really not interested in a copyright flame war as much as seeing from others' experiences whether its already time to batten down the hatches. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 18:43:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA25214; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 18:43:31 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA25208; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 11:43:14 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA04998 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 1 Jun 1994 14:44:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199406011844.AA04998@cs.umb.edu> To: "Thanh H. Huynh" Cc: Vera Henriksen , list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jun 1994 13:47:51 +1000." Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 14:44:39 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , "Thanh H. Huynh" writes: >Take it easy man ! >Are you sure you alsway did the right things? Probably not, but the bleeding majordomo documentation says specifically NOT to post majordomo problems to this list, and gives 4 different mailing lists that are appropriate. Is it too much to ask that people follow directions? -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 12:13:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA25471; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 19:07:54 GMT Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA25428; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:07:34 -0700 From: Ben.Goren@asu.edu Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by Tux.Music.ASU.Edu (5.64/A/UX-3.00) id AA14935; Wed, 1 Jun 94 12:10:16 MST Message-Id: <9406011910.AA14935@Tux.Music.ASU.Edu> X-Sender: ben@localhost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 12:10:22 -0700 To: "John P. Rouillard" Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. Cc: Vera Henriksen , list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:44 PM 6/1/94 -0400, John P. Rouillard wrote: >In message , >"Thanh H. Huynh" writes: >>Take it easy man ! >>Are you sure you alsway did the right things? > >Probably not, but the bleeding majordomo documentation says >specifically NOT to post majordomo problems to this list, and gives 4 >different mailing lists that are appropriate. Is it too much to ask >that people follow directions? Too much to ask? No. Too much to expect? Aparently so. > -- John b& -- Ben.Goren@asu.edu, Arizona State University School of Music net.proselytizing (write for info): Protect your privacy; oppose Clipper. Voice concern over proposed Internet pricing schemes. Stamp out spamming. Finger ben@tux.music.asu.edu for PGP 2.3a public key. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 00:34:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA28247; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 00:34:00 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA28241; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:33:38 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA03441 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:34:58 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA02492 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:34:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199406020034.AA02492@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: What is this "registered" business. Date: Wed, 01 Jun 94 17:34:57 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk OK, I'm not up on all the various mailing list software or mail handlers or what not out there, but I seem to periodically be flooded by requests like: >To: owner-fatfree >Subject: Registered: [users name] What the f*ck? I just delete 'em. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 23:33:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA00328; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 06:26:38 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA00321; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 23:26:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199406020626.XAA00321@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Vera Henriksen Cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Need info. Please help. In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 31 May 1994 18:59:12 -0700 Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 23:26:29 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman writes: # Vera Henriksen writes: # # # # # Hi all, # # # # I am looking for the FAQ of this group or any information how to setup # # the digest feature in majordomo. Any advices woull be appreciated. # # # # Thank in advance. # # WHERE did people suddenly get the idea the # List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is the right place to ask for help with # Majordomo installations? This is the second such misguided posting # today. My apologies for being harsh. I was having a bad day yesterday. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 1 23:53:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA00377; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 06:33:21 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA00369; Wed, 1 Jun 1994 23:33:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199406020633.XAA00369@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: "Anthony J. Rzepela" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Publishing scavengers -- any experiences so far? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 01 Jun 1994 10:55:09 EDT Date: Wed, 01 Jun 1994 23:33:09 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Anthony J. Rzepela" writes: # Although the topic of copyrights, etc. wrt FAQs # and USENET postings is one that's worn fairly thin # by now, what is the current thinking on the # content of mailing list traffic? Who *does* it # belong to? Is it public domain? Can it even be # considered email, even though email channels # are used to distribute it? # # What about alternative, electronic archives of # list traffic? What about a very selective # archive in which your material (and several other # interesting contributions) has singled out for # "archive" storage? # # Newspapers (real ones, with lawyers) already quote # USENET postings, but email list traffic, once it starts # to become the dominant mode of interchange as USENET # slowly chokes to death, will be a much more productive # mine for primary source material. Uh oh, imminent death of the net predicted... :-) # Does anyone here coyright hir list's traffic? "coyright"; now there's an interesting concept... Does it apply mainly to the erotica groups? :-) All joking aside, this _is_ a significant issue. A number of folks have already published the archives of various lists on CD-ROM. I had great fun going back through the SF-Lovers archive with a couple of friends and reading all the B.S. they'd posted over the years ("oh, god, I said _that_? And now it's burned in plastic, _forever_?!?" :-) There's a serious side to that kind of "unexpected permanence", though. I would expect that organizations like the EFF (Electronic Frontiers Foundation; not sure of their main email address; maybe "info@eff.org" or "eff@eff.org"?) have issued position papers on the topic; if you're interested, that might be a place to follow up. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 12:43:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA02360; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:43:14 GMT Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id FAA02354; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 05:43:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 8:45:19 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What is this "registered" business. Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9406020845.aa19550@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick wrote: > >OK, I'm not up on all the various mailing list software or mail >handlers or what not out there, but I seem to periodically be flooded >by requests like: > >>To: owner-fatfree >>Subject: Registered: [users name] > >What the f*ck? > >I just delete 'em. Me too. You're getting them because people have the Return-Receipt-To: field in the headers of the msgs they send your list. And not all mailers quite fully understand them, I guess. I have a line in my newuser banner msg asking them to turn off this option. Kinda helps... Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 17:00:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA04265; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 17:00:52 GMT Received: from sunshine.eushc.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA04259; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:00:39 -0700 Received: from knex.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.8.1/EUSHC) with UUCP id NAA10458; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:02:22 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.8.1/MIND.ORG) with UUCP id LAA13311; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:52:00 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jun 94 11:50:25 EDT for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: <0muaNc1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 94 11:38:44 EDT Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have aired this problem here before. For some reason, aol seems to want to present either the envelope From_ address or the Errors-To: address as the From: address to the AOL user, who proceeds to respond to that address. At least that is what I think is happening because only those two headers are set to the List Owner address. There is the From: header which has the original sender and Reply-To: header which is set to the list address, both of which seem to be ignored by the AOL mail agent. When I scan the mail expecting bounces etc. at that address, I find mail meant for lists from aol users. What I have to do is to read the mail, figure out which list it may belong to based on either a continuing thread or the subject matter and route it there, as I run a number of lists from here. I do this because some of the contributions of the AOLers are quite good. But this is getting tedious. Question is: Should I just ignore the mailing? Should I bounce the mail? Should I return the mail with a note about proper addressing etc.? All list mailings have X-reminders pointing to the correct address etc., but apparently no one ever sees them or reads them, if they see them. When I alerted AOL admins to this problem, I got either something is wrong with my headers or yes, there is a problem and we will fix it soon. I don't know which of these views is real. I need an interim solution on how best to treat this. Thanks in advance for your wisdom. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 11:43:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA05378; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 18:30:05 GMT Received: from KENTVM.KENT.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA05351; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:29:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199406021829.LAA05351@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from KENTVM.KENT.EDU by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3929; Thu, 02 Jun 94 14:30:12 EDT Received: from KENTVM (NJE origin DKOVACS@KENTVM) by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4101; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 14:30:13 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 94 14:30:06 EDT From: Diane Kovacs Subject: EJVC: Virtual Square Call for Essays To: GNET@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU, INFO-FUTURES@ENCORE.com, IPCT-L%GUVM.bitnet@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.com, L-OHACAD%AKRONVM.bitnet@KENTVM.KENT.EDU Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 18:44:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA05572; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 18:44:18 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA05566; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:44:06 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA03737; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 14:43:44 -0400 Message-Id: <199406021843.OAA03737@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Jun 1994 11:38:44 EDT." <0muaNc1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 1994 14:43:38 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > When I scan the mail expecting bounces etc. at that address, I find > mail meant for lists from aol users. What I have to do is to read > the mail, figure out which list it may belong to based on either > a continuing thread or the subject matter and route it there, as > I run a number of lists from here. I do this because some of the > contributions of the AOLers are quite good. But this is getting > tedious. > > Question is: Should I just ignore the mailing? > Should I bounce the mail? > Should I return the mail with a note about proper > addressing etc.? I haven't had the problem with aol users, but in general when I get a reply to the envelope from address, I return the mail with a note indicating that the user's mailer has replied to the wrong address and needs to be fixed, and telling the user which address should be used for replies. Usaually I do NOT forward the message to the list. Sometimes the user actually gets his site to fix its mail system. Otherwise, the user learns to type in the correct reply address by hand. Currently I do this by hand, but it wouldn't be too hard to automate -- it's pretty easy to distinguish replies from bounced mail. (replies usually have subject beginning with Re:, and bounced mail usually is from one of a small number of usernames). This strategy seems to be effective in that users usually manage to resend with the correct address, and I don't see many repeat offenders. I think this strategy is effective because (a) it provides an explanation of what went wrong, to someone that is at least close to the source of the problem (i.e. at the same site), and (b) the user's mail doesn't go through unless the problem is fixed, so there's an incentive. Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 12:03:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA05714; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 18:56:52 GMT Received: from KENTVM.KENT.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA05707; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 11:56:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199406021856.LAA05707@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from KENTVM.KENT.EDU by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4044; Thu, 02 Jun 94 14:57:59 EDT Received: from KENTVM (NJE origin DKOVACS@KENTVM) by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4612; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 14:57:59 -0400 Date: Thu, 02 Jun 94 14:57:48 EDT From: Diane Kovacs Subject: EJVC: Virtual Square Call for Essays To: GNET@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU, IPCT-L%GUVM.bitnet@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.com, L-OHACAD%AKRONVM.bitnet@KENTVM.KENT.EDU, RESOURcES@CNI.ORG Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk EJVC: VIRTUAL SQUARE CALL FOR ESSAYS, LETTERS, ARTICLES FOR THE JULY 1994 ISSUE TOPIC: "ROMANCE ON THE INTERNET" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Virtual Square is an unrefereed section of The Arachnet Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture (ISSN 1068-5723) Ermel Stepp, Marshall U, Editor-in-Chief Diane (Di) Kovacs, Kent State U, Co-Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The InterNet brings people together for many reasons, and one of them is to explore the possibilities of and perhaps to discover romance. This use of the medium appears to be growing. If you have experimented with or have opinions about this dimension of the electronic superhighway, the Virtual Square (VS) would like to hear from you. Romance on the InterNet: Is this a fad or a trend? What are some of the implications? How is it changing the nature of relationships? Is this an appropriate use of the InterNet? Considering "Mosaic" and other multimedia interfaces for the InterNet, what are your predictions for the coming years? What does it say about users of the InterNet? How are virtual relationships different from face-to-face ones? Please submit -- via email -- your essays, letters, narratives, and articles. The pieces should be between 500 and 5,000 words. Send them to: Jim Shimabukuro, Editor, Virtual Square: InterNet address: JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.Edu _________________________________ *Copyright Declaration* Copyright of articles published by Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture is held by the author of a given article. If an article is re-published elsewhere it must include a statement that it was originally published by Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture. The EJVC Editors reserve the right to maintain permanent archival copies of all submissions and to provide print copies to appropriate indexing services for for indexing and microforming. _________________________________ THE ELECTRONIC JOURNAL ON VIRTUAL CULTURE EDITORIAL BORAD EJVC Founders Ermel Stepp, Marshall University, Editor-in-Chief M034050@Marshall.wvnet.edu Diane (Di) Kovacs, Kent State University, Co-Editor DKOVACS@Kentvm.Kent.edu A. Ralph Papakhian, Indiana University, Consulting Editor PAPAKHI@@IUBVM Editor, _The Cyberspace Monitor_ Vacant Editor, _Virtual Square_ James Shimabukuro, University of Hawaii jamess@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu Consulting Editors Anne Balsamo, Georgia Institute of Technology ab45@prism.gatech.edu Patrick (Pat) Conner, West Virginia University u47c2@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU Skip Coppola, Applied Technology, Inc. skip%aptech@bagend.atl.ga.us Cynthia J. Fuchs, George Mason University cfuchs@gmuvax.bitnet Stevan Harnad, Princeton University harnad@Princeton.EDU Edward M. (Ted) Jennings, University at Albany, SUNY EMJ69@ALBNYVMS Michael Joyce, Vassar MIJOYCE@vaxsar.vassar.edu or USERTFSG@UMICHUM Jay Lemke, City University of New York JLLBC@CUNYVM.BITNET Carl Eugene Loeffler, Carnegie Mellon University cel+@andrew.cmu.edu Willard McCarty, University of Toronto editor@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA James (Jim) Milles, Saint Louis University millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu Algirdas Pakstas, Institute of Mathematics and Informatics a.pakstas@sedcs.mii2.Lt A. Ralph Papakhian, Indiana University PAPAKHI@@IUBVM Bernie Sloan, University of Illinois, Champaign AXPBBGS@UICVMC.BITNET or b-sloan@uiuc.edu Allucquere Roseanne Stone, University of Texas, Austin success@emc.cc.utexas.edu Kali Tal, Viet Nam Generation kali@access.digex.com Associate Editors Robert J. (Bob) Beebe, Youngstown State University ad219@yfn.ysu.edu David W. Brown, Ball State University 01dwbrown@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU Kathleen Burnett, Rutgers University BURNET@zodiac.rutgers.edu G. Phillip Cartwight, University of California, Davis PCARTWRI@KENTVM Paulo A. Dasilva, Military Institute of Engineering, Brazil S9PAULO@IMERJ.BITNET Jill Ellsworth, Southwest Texas State University je01@swtexas Jan George Frajkor, Carleton University, Canada gfrajkor@ccs.carleton.ca Dave Gomberg, University of California, San Francisco GOMBERG@UCFSVM Lee Hancock, The University of Kansas Medical Center Le07144@ukanvm Mary Hocks, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaigne mhocks@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Steven Hodas, HORSE HORSE LION LION hhll@u.washington.edu Nancy Kaplan, University of Texas, Dallas NKaplan@utdallas.bitnet Brendan Kehoe, Cygnus Support bk@well.sf.ca.us Joan Korenman, University of Maryland, Baltimore County korenman@umbc2.umbc.edu or korenman@umbc Steven D. Koski, St. Bonaventure University KOSKI@sbu.edu Sharyn Ladner, University of Miami SLADNER@umiami.IR.miami.EDU Lyonette Louis-Jacques, University of Chicago llou@midway.uchicago.edu Fred Melssen, University of Nijmegen u211610@vms.uci.kun.nl Joseph Psotka, Army Research Institute PSOTKA@alexandria-emh2.army.mil Martin E. Rosenberg, University of Kentucky MROSE01@UKCC.uky.edu Laverna Saunders, University of Nevada, Las Vegas saunders@nevada.edu David Sewell, University of Rochester dsew@TROI.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU James Shimabukuro, University of Hawaii jamess@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu Christinger (Chris) Tomer, University of Pittsburgh ctomer@vms.cis.pitt.edu or ctomer+@pitt.edu Stuart Weibel, OCLC stu@oclc.org Bob Zenhausern, St. Johns University drz@sjuvm.stjohns.edu or drz@sjuvm.bitnet ____________________________ Articles and Sections of the latest issue of the _Electronic Journal on Virtual Culture_ may be retrieved via anonymous ftp to byrd.mu.wvnet.edu or via e-mail message addressed to LISTSERV@KENTVM or LISTSERV@KENTVM.KENT.EDU (instructions below) or GOPHER gopher.cic.net ____________________________ From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 3 06:23:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA12789; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 06:23:08 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA12782; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 23:23:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199406030623.XAA12782@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 02 Jun 94 11:38:44 EDT Date: Thu, 02 Jun 1994 23:23:00 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar writes: # I have aired this problem here before. For some reason, aol seems # to want to present either the envelope From_ address or the # Errors-To: address as the From: address to the AOL user, who proceeds # to respond to that address. At least that is what I think is happening # because only those two headers are set to the List Owner address. # # When I scan the mail expecting bounces etc. at that address, I find # mail meant for lists from aol users. What I have to do is to read # the mail, figure out which list it may belong to based on either # a continuing thread or the subject matter and route it there, as # I run a number of lists from here. I do this because some of the # contributions of the AOLers are quite good. But this is getting # tedious. # # Question is: Should I just ignore the mailing? # Should I bounce the mail? # Should I return the mail with a note about proper # addressing etc.? I generally return the messages to the sender with a note that explains what they should have done, but it's very low priority for me unless it's a particularly intersting posting; it's often days or weeks before I get far enough down my "to do" list to get to cleaning out my inbox and processing such mail. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 2 23:23:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA12711; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 06:18:23 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA02966; Thu, 2 Jun 1994 07:40:17 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 07:40:17 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.182] (mac182.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Thu, 2 Jun 94 10:26 EDT Subject: Monthly Reminders To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <0A75AF23F13F013647@hamp.hampshire.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi folks. I'm new to this list, although I've been a list manager for about 2 years (I manage the lists Fist, Minhlth and Sistah-net). Do most of you have monthly reminders that you send to the list, and does it help to cut down on the "unsubscribe" etc, and stupid question traffic? Is it worth doing? I've been thinking about doing it for some time, and never seem to find the time (I also co-moderate a Usenet newsgroup). But if it really is worth doing, then I'll do it. Thanks. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. School of Natural Science Hampshire College, Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu >>> WWW Home page under construction <<< "Some women wait for something to change and nothing does change so they change themselves." -Audre Lourde, from "Stations" in _Our Dead Behind Us_ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 3 11:59:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA15562; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 11:59:53 GMT Received: from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id EAA15556; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 04:59:45 -0700 Received: by snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (5.64/1.35) id AA13927; Fri, 3 Jun 94 08:01:06 -0400 From: stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal) Message-Id: <9406031201.AA13927@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> Subject: Re: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 3 Jun 94 8:01:05 EDT Organization: Your Company Name Here X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have this problem on a regular basis. It's not just AOLers, however. The footer on my message indicates which address is for admin (-request) and which address is for posting. However since the digest comes From: my address, some tend to reply to it and send the mail to me. I've posted reminder after reminder, and I've really just got tired of it. So I do nothing. I don't like forwarding mail to a list without consent and I can't be bothered to track down people who can't figure it out. I've even had people write me and ask why their postings weren't in the digest so I explained VERY specifically what to do. Two days later they continued to send me postings. I'd like to see lurkers more involved in the discussion, but I'm also not going to take responsibility for everyone's ability to do so. The traffic on my list (individual messages) are sent to a newsgroup, and are also grouped together in a daily digest. The newsgroup, of course, receives its own postings which do not go out to the mailing list. This is amazingly hard for some people to understand. I tend to post a reminder about once a week which spells it out. The next day I'll see "what's the difference between and ?" posted as if no explanation had ever been given. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Steve Portigal ** User-Interface Dude (looking for work) | | View my M.Sc. thesis online at: http://130.43.3.18/ | | stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca Voice/Fax: (905) 632 6647 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 3 14:21:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA16879; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 14:21:02 GMT Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA16873; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 07:20:49 -0700 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA20567; Fri, 3 Jun 94 07:22:24 MST Received: from emailchd ([192.70.227.1]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA05144; Fri, 3 Jun 94 07:22:22 MST Received: by akamai.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09925; Fri, 3 Jun 94 09:22:18 CDT From: jjoy@akamai.sps.mot.com (Jennifer Joy) Message-Id: <9406031422.AA09925@akamai.sps.mot.com> Subject: Re: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 3 Jun 94 9:22:17 CDT In-Reply-To: <9406031201.AA13927@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca>; from "Steve Portigal" at Jun 3, 94 8:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11b] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I have this problem on a regular basis. It's not just AOLers, however. > The footer on my message indicates which address is for admin (-request) > and which address is for posting. However since the digest comes From: > my address, some tend to reply to it and send the mail to me. I've > posted reminder after reminder, and I've really just got tired of it. > So I do nothing. I don't like forwarding mail to a list without consent > and I can't be bothered to track down people who can't figure it out. > I've even had people write me and ask why their postings weren't in > the digest so I explained VERY specifically what to do. Two days later > they continued to send me postings. I'd like to see lurkers more involved > in the discussion, but I'm also not going to take responsibility for > everyone's ability to do so. > > The traffic on my list (individual messages) are sent to a newsgroup, and > are also grouped together in a daily digest. The newsgroup, of course, > receives its own postings which do not go out to the mailing list. > > This is amazingly hard for some people to understand. I tend to post > a reminder about once a week which spells it out. The next day I'll > see "what's the difference between and ?" posted > as if no explanation had ever been given. [while not exactly a -request problem, this is related] Well, I am running elm (Elm 2.3 PL11b, of May 1, 1990) which is of course really old, but I would be stepping on a colleague's toes to replace it right at this moment. This goofy version, when I replied to your mail (yes, this very post), said the To: was Steve Portigal, but if the careful observer goes back to the headers you find that I am really sending to list-managers-owner. It is not always stupid users (although say what you will about ancient software and the people who run it) who can't follow directions. To reply to your mail in a sane manner I need to reply, exit my edit, change the header (lest I forget and send mail to Brent AGAIN), go back and finish my message. Fun, fun. Any guesses on what a Mac mailer might do? heh. Anyway, another viewpoint. 8-) jen -- Jennifer Joy sys/net admin Motorola/RISC HW Austin,TX jjoy@risc.sps.mot.com 512.891.8561 fax:512.891.3190 pgr:933-7333 #898561 From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 3 16:10:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA18014; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:10:24 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id CAA14462; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 02:23:49 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24074 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 3 Jun 1994 02:25:31 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA12439 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Fri, 3 Jun 1994 02:25:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199406030925.AA12439@bolero.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Monthly Reminders In-Reply-To: <0A75AF23F13F013647@hamp.hampshire.edu> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 94 02:25:30 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu wrote: > Do most of you have monthly reminders that you send to the list, and > does it help to cut down on the "unsubscribe" etc, and stupid > question traffic? Is it worth doing? No to the "unsubscribe" traffic, yes to the stupid question traffic. I have admin instructions at the top of every cotton pickin' digest, and yet I *still* get digest users sending unsubscribes to the wrong address. I used to post reminders periodically and while they would generally be followed by several correctly sent unsubscribe requests, it didn't seem to really make an impact longer term (i.e. more than 12 hours). There were even folks who followed up that very same reminder with an unsubscribe request posted to the list! (and no, I don't have the reply-to set to the list address). I gave up. I now just ignore all incorrectly sent subscribe and unsubscribe requests. Several of my members have taken on the task of informing these wayward souls. This is one reason I am switching to a mailing list handler like SmartList that tries to catch most of these messages and divert them to correct place. I surrender. As for stupid or FAQ questions, yes, I do find that a periodic posting helps. Folks who ask such things generally are reading the list. (unlike those who just want off). BTW, one thing that DID work on reducing errant add/drop traffic was to capitalize the word request in my directions. I.e. I would say: To get on or off the list, you MUST send email to: fatfree-REQUEST@hustle.rahul.net This did noticably reduce (but nowhere near eliminate) wrongly sent email. I picked up this little trick from one of the readers of my list who advertised my list elsewhere and being fed up with having to read unsubscribe requests on the list, used this techniqe. I noticed that some of the admin requests came in with request capitalized and noticed that folks from that source seemed to rarely send it incorrectly. I started doing this myself and found it helped. Aside: I am always tickled when non-digest readers helpfully suggest to me that I put an admin notice at the top of the digest to help cut down on posted unsub requests. They are always shocked to learn that I already do that. While I'm griping, I might as well mention another pet peeve: digest readers who quote the *entire* digest to the list. Unbelievable and really annoying. I do set the reply-to on the digest to the posting address, but I'm not sure where else I could set it. No way am I going to set it to the request address. I supposed I could set it to foo@bar. :-) -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 3 17:33:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA19164; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 17:33:44 GMT Received: from sunshine.eushc.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA19135; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 10:32:11 -0700 Received: from knex.UUCP (root@localhost) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.8.1/EUSHC) with UUCP id NAA07125; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:33:09 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.8.1/MIND.ORG) with UUCP id MAA01971; Fri, 3 Jun 1994 12:44:48 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 03 Jun 94 12:39:22 EDT for List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How do I treat AOLers mailing to wrong address? From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Jun 94 12:35:15 EDT In-Reply-To: <9406031201.AA13927@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (Steve Portigal) writes: > I have this problem on a regular basis. It's not just AOLers, however. > The footer on my message indicates which address is for admin (-request) > and which address is for posting. However since the digest comes From: It is true that this is not just the AOLers doing it. But in my case 99% of the time, it is from someone using aol. And I have tried to find out why they do this and from their response I know that it is the aol mailer that give them a short From: and Subject: and I guess the UI automatically responds to the From: as interpreted by AOL. AOL appends the complete header at the end of the email text, but no one ever bothers even to look at them I think. Since I have a large number of aol subscribers, I see it very often. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 6 03:34:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA08746; Mon, 6 Jun 1994 08:42:07 GMT Received: from chaph.usc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA08738; Mon, 6 Jun 1994 01:41:58 -0700 Received: from girtab.usc.edu (ogilvie@girtab.usc.edu [128.125.253.145]) by chaph.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with ESMTP id BAA14155 for ; Mon, 6 Jun 1994 01:43:46 -0700 Received: (ogilvie@localhost) by girtab.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7+ucs) id BAA24262; Mon, 6 Jun 1994 01:43:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 01:43:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Charles P. Ogilvie" To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subcribe list-managers-digest From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 7 20:52:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA29297; Tue, 7 Jun 1994 19:32:28 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA29291; Tue, 7 Jun 1994 12:32:14 -0700 Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 12:32:14 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.181] (mac181.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Tue, 7 Jun 94 11:48 EDT Subject: Cleveland Freenet and other strange addresses To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <067C6CC45D9F01D414@hamp.hampshire.edu> X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, I've got a couple of subscribers who are on the cleveland freenet, which I'm told by them likes to change the nodes that users are sending messages from. This of course creates all sorts of havoc when they want to post to a list which recognizes subscribers only. I have 2 questions. 1) have other folks run into this? and 2) how did you deal with it? Do different "listserv" software packages deal with addresses more intelligently than the Unix version? I know that this list is not about specific software, and that this question is kinda borderline on that issue, so forgive my newbieness if I crossed the line. Also forgive me if you've discussed this recently. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. _____________________________ School of Natural Science | mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu | Hampshire College, ----------------------------- Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 Listowner: Feminists in Science and Technology (FIST@dawn.hampshire.edu) Minority Health Issues (MINHLTH@dawn.hampshire.edu) List Facilitator:Sistah-net (Sistah-request@hamp.hampshire.edu) Co-moderator, sci.med.aids =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 8 16:48:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA10282; Wed, 8 Jun 1994 16:48:07 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA10275; Wed, 8 Jun 1994 09:47:44 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA02069; Wed, 8 Jun 94 09:42:59 PDT X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 09:39:19 PDT From: "Floyd Maxwell" Reply-To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca Message-Id: <34763.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ListServ on Netware 3.11 possible? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry to bother the great Internet List stewards but... Is it possible to set up a List Server on a non-Unix box ? Ideally, on a Netware 3.11 file server? Best/recommended vendors & contact info.? ...and now back to the AOL right-to-life debate :-) -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Floyd Maxwell Internet: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca | | Manager, Computer and Technical Systems Voice: (604) 822-6503 | | Food Services Department Fax: (604) 822-2384 | | The University of British Columbia CIS: 71414,1124 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | You can lead a person to philosophy, but you can't make them think. | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 8 18:03:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA11116; Wed, 8 Jun 1994 18:03:37 GMT Received: from uu9.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA11103; Wed, 8 Jun 1994 11:02:48 -0700 Received: from wri.org by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA03932 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Jun 94 14:06:29 -0400 Received: from smtpgate id: 2DF606D3.30D (WordPerfect SMTP Gateway V3.1a 04/27/92) Received: from earth (WP Connection) Received: from TCPBRIDGE (WP Connection) Received: from HOBBES (WP Connection) Received: from CALVIN (WP Connection) From: LAURENN%smtpgate@earth.wri.org Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at earth.wri.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at earth.wri.org To: FMAXWELL@unixg.ubc.ca Mmdf-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at earth.wri.org Subject: Re: ListServ on Netware 3.11 possible? ( Date: Wed Jun 8 13:58:43 1994 Message-Id: <9406081344.aa22911@earth.wri.org> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there! You've probably been flooded w/posts pointing you to the NOVELL list... -- LaurenN@wri.org Subject: Novell list info Any commands concerning the list (such as signing on or off the list) must be sent to LISTSERV and not to the list. Sending mail to the mailing list address, as opposed to the LISTSERV address will not only not get you subscribed, it will annoy over 1000 people world-wide, and use inordinate amounts of computer time around the world for no reason. To subscribe to the list, send the following mail to the above address (pick either internet or bitnet as appropriate--if you are not sure, consult the computer support staff at your site): To: LISTSERV@suvm[.acs.syr.edu] Subject: Doesn't matter subscribe NOVELL Your Full Name This will return a confirmation message to you, which you *must* reply to within 48 hours or your subscription will not be processed. This is to ensure that you e-mail address is reachable by LISTSERV. If you have problems subscribing to the list, contact Bruce Riddle (NOVELADM@suvm.acs.syr.edu), one of the list sysops. From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 10 18:29:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA11563; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 18:29:39 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA11555; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 11:29:11 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA00991 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:31:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199406101831.OAA00991@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 14:31:26 EDT In-Reply-To: Brent Chapman "Re: header munging?" (Mar 30, 2:14pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: By user digesting Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A user wants to set up a list in which each member can decide for themselves whether they want to get individual messages or a periodic digest. Does either majordomo or listproc (or others) support this? --Mike From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 10 19:04:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA12008; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 19:04:34 GMT Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA11989; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:04:20 -0700 From: Ben.Goren@asu.edu Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by Tux.Music.ASU.Edu (5.64/A/UX-3.00) id AA04978; Fri, 10 Jun 94 12:07:21 MST Message-Id: <9406101907.AA04978@Tux.Music.ASU.Edu> X-Sender: ben@localhost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:07:27 -0700 To: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: By user digesting Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:31 PM 6/10/94 -0400, Michael H. Morse wrote: >A user wants to set up a list in which each member can decide >for themselves whether they want to get individual messages or >a periodic digest. Does either majordomo or listproc (or others) >support this? LISTSERV does; Eric Thomas recently announced prices for Unix and VMS versions, in additional to the original VM one. Write to him at for more info. >--Mike b& -- Ben.Goren@asu.edu, Arizona State University School of Music net.proselytizing (write for info): Protect your privacy; oppose Clipper. Voice concern over proposed Internet pricing schemes. Stamp out spamming. Finger ben@tux.music.asu.edu for PGP 2.3a public key. From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 10 19:58:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA12657; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 19:58:44 GMT Received: from vespucci.iquest.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA12651; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 12:58:36 -0700 Received: by vespucci.iquest.com (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0qCCoU-0003DsC; Fri, 10 Jun 94 15:04 CDT Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 15:02:25 +0100 From: Dougal Campbell Subject: Re: By user digesting To: "Michael H. Morse" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199406101831.OAA00991@z.nsf.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Jun 1994, Michael H. Morse wrote: > A user wants to set up a list in which each member can decide > for themselves whether they want to get individual messages or > a periodic digest. Does either majordomo or listproc (or others) > support this? Majordomo has support for digests. I've just finished getting a digested test list set up at my site, and it seems to work fine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dougal Campbell | "Sex without love is an empty experience. dougal@vespucci.iquest.com | But as far as empty experiences go, it's dougal@bbs.iquest.com | the best." -- Woody Allen From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 10 23:27:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA14200; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 23:27:15 GMT Received: from saimiri.primate.wisc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA14194; Fri, 10 Jun 1994 16:27:01 -0700 Received: by saimiri.primate.wisc.edu; id AA01776; 4.1/41.8; Fri, 10 Jun 94 18:28:58 CDT From: Software Development Message-Id: <9406102328.AA01776@saimiri.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: By user digesting To: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 18:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199406101831.OAA00991@z.nsf.gov> from "Michael H. Morse" at Jun 10, 94 02:31:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 522 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A user wants to set up a list in which each member can decide > for themselves whether they want to get individual messages or > a periodic digest. Does either majordomo or listproc (or others) > support this? I do this with a majordomo list by having a xxx list and a xxx-digest list. Users that want individual messages subscribe to the first. Users that want digests subscribe to the second. The messages on the digest list consist of concatenated messages sent to the first. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 11 15:26:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA19683; Sat, 11 Jun 1994 15:26:14 GMT Received: from cs.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA19677; Sat, 11 Jun 1994 08:26:07 -0700 Received: from csa.bu.edu by cs.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id LAA15895; Sat, 11 Jun 1994 11:27:28 -0400 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: from localhost by csa.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id LAA09903; Sat, 11 Jun 1994 11:28:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199406111528.LAA09903@csa.bu.edu> Subject: Re: By user digesting To: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 11:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199406101831.OAA00991@z.nsf.gov> from "Michael H. Morse" at Jun 10, 94 02:31:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 288 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > A user wants to set up a list in which each member can decide > for themselves whether they want to get individual messages or > a periodic digest. Does either majordomo or listproc (or others) > support this? > > --Mike > listproc does (Mike, time for you to upgrade ;-) tasos From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 14 08:51:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA17562; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 15:42:46 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA17556; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 08:42:37 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA13545; Tue, 14 Jun 94 11:44:05 EDT Message-Id: <9406141544.AA13545@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 14 Jun 1994 11:32 EDT Subject: Need to move a list to a willing host Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I have been administering ballroom@athena.mit.edu (about 250 members) for about 2 years now, but I will need to move the list to another host shortly, for a combination of reasons that include: (a) I do not have easy access to the host anymore; (b) The administrators of the host machine discourage public mailing lists; (c) There is no automatic list maintenance facility (majordomo, listserv) and the list has got to the point where it is extremely unwieldy and time-consuming to administer it manually. Therefore, I am looking for a host with an automatic list server that will be willing to have the list reside on it. I would continue doing the administration of the list. Does anyone know of entities who respond favourably to such requests? Naturally, I would prefer one who would do it gratis (I had heard that many of the bitnet listservs will do that--true?) but, failing that, which of the commercial services have especially favourable terms for those who use their accounts primarily for list management? As mentioned earlier, the list is about 250 entries, and may double in size in the next few years. Volume is 5-10 messages per day and could also double in size. Thanks for any info. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 14 12:11:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA21545; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 18:05:54 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA21538; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 11:05:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199406141805.LAA21538@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Need to move a list to a willing host In-reply-to: Your message of 14 Jun 1994 11:32 EDT Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 11:05:43 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) writes: # Therefore, I am looking for a host with an automatic list server that # will be willing to have the list reside on it. I would continue doing # the administration of the list. # # Does anyone know of entities who respond favourably to such requests? # Naturally, I would prefer one who would do it gratis (I had heard that # many of the bitnet listservs will do that--true?) but, failing that, # which of the commercial services have especially favourable terms for # those who use their accounts primarily for list management? Portal and NetCom both have Majordomo servers, presumably for the user of their customers. I'd send a "help" command to Majordomo@portal.com and Majordomo@Netcom.com, and see who they say to contact with questions about the server. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 14 19:56:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA23665; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 19:56:37 GMT Received: from chinacat.unicom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA23657; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 12:56:20 -0700 Received: from localhost by chinacat.unicom.com (smail3.1.28.1) id m0qDecV-0000ptC; Tue, 14 Jun 94 14:58 CDT Message-Id: From: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Subject: Re: Need to move a list to a willing host To: brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 14:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Cc: merchant@anuxv.att.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199406141805.LAA21538@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "Brent Chapman" at Jun 14, 94 11:05:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 735 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman writes: > Portal and NetCom both have Majordomo servers, presumably for the user > of their customers. I'd send a "help" command to Majordomo@portal.com > and Majordomo@Netcom.com, and see who they say to contact with > questions about the server. Not to slam the generousity of any provider ... but I'll note that one list to which I belong was just recently moved *off* Netcom because of the way they've configured things to munge headers. The list is still being run under Majordomo, just on another site that has configured it differently. -- Chip Rosenthal 512-447-0577 | I figure the odds be fifty-fifty Unicom Systems Development | I just might have some thing to say. | -FZ From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 14 20:03:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA23880; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 20:03:41 GMT Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA23871; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 13:03:32 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDJG0KWNLC000EGB@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 17:05:39 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDJG097V4W00EV67@AC.DAL.CA>; Tue, 14 Jun 1994 17:05:24 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA16366; Tue, 14 Jun 94 17:00:58 -0300 Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 17:00:57 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Need to move a list to a willing host To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9406142000.AA16366@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1537 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) writes: # Therefore, I am looking for a host with an automatic list server that # will be willing to have the list reside on it. I would continue doing # the administration of the list. It seems that there might be discussion at this point of HOW one moves a list. I had a very painful experience with a list that was moved from my machine without my cooperation (the list owner just moved the addresses to another site), and ever since I get angry messages from people who don't know why my server won't respond to requests to unsubscribe. Unless one is dealing with sophisticated users there can be all kinds of problems, and I think that this aspect merits some exchange of ideas. One solution is to tell people to subscribe to the new list. There is a disadvantage in that some subscribers may miss the message. One solution might be to create a dummy server. Mail to SERVER@machine (where SERVER is listserv, Majordomo, etc.) would be parsed and forwarded to the correct address if appropriate, otherwise an informational message could be sent back. This would only work if the old host machine were willing to phase out the list in this way, but I suspect that a lot of the perl hackers on this list could put together something that would do the job OK. Bill Silvert -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca (the address bill@biome.bio.ns.ca is only for mailing lists) From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 16 06:02:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA12940; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 12:48:13 GMT Received: from de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA12916; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 05:47:50 -0700 Received: (from de5@localhost) by de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA28311; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 08:49:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 08:49:38 -0400 From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199406161249.IAA28311@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Need to move a list to a willing host In-Reply-To: <9406142000.AA16366@biome.bio.ns.ca> References: <9406142000.AA16366@biome.bio.ns.ca> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.70.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.10 Lucid of Wed May 25 1994 on tile.cs.colorado.edu (berkeley-unix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >It seems that there might be discussion at this point of HOW one moves a >list. I had a very painful experience with a list that was moved from >my machine without my cooperation (the list owner just moved the >addresses to another site), and ever since I get angry messages from >people who don't know why my server won't respond to requests to >unsubscribe. That's definitely not the best way to do it. :-) >One solution is to tell people to subscribe to the new list. There is a >disadvantage in that some subscribers may miss the message. That's better... >One solution might be to create a dummy server. Mail to SERVER@machine >(where SERVER is listserv, Majordomo, etc.) would be parsed and >forwarded to the correct address if appropriate, otherwise an >informational message could be sent back. This would only work if the >old host machine were willing to phase out the list in this way, but I >suspect that a lot of the perl hackers on this list could put together >something that would do the job OK. If you can, the best approach is to change the aliases on the old server to point to the new server. This works especially well when the same list manager is used for both lists. It's trivial to implement (compared to the dummy server method you described), places a minimal burden on the old server, and is easy for users. You just tell them to use the new address in the future (and change published references to the new address). If they forget and use the old address it magically works. -- Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov) Martin Marietta Energy Systems, Workstation Support URL http://www.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 16 13:37:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA14073; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 13:37:09 GMT Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA14032; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 06:36:31 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDLV211NKW002CZ9@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 10:38:17 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDLV1Q865S00IGQO@AC.DAL.CA>; Thu, 16 Jun 1994 10:38:04 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA01009; Thu, 16 Jun 94 10:33:32 -0300 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 10:33:31 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Need to move a list to a willing host To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9406161333.AA01009@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 813 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Forwarded message: >From: Dave Sill > >If you can, the best approach is to change the aliases on the old >server to point to the new server. This works especially well when >the same list manager is used for both lists. It's trivial to >implement (compared to the dummy server method you described), places >a minimal burden on the old server, and is easy for users. You just >tell them to use the new address in the future (and change published >references to the new address). If they forget and use the old >address it magically works. This works fine if the server is moving, but I am talking about moving just one or a few lists. Thus the LISTSERV or Majordomo program still gets the mail, but we need some way to intercept messages for lists that have been moved. Bill Silvert From owner-list-managers-archive Mon Jun 20 04:39:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA22031; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 11:25:23 GMT Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA22025; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 04:25:12 -0700 Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.7/8.6.5) id HAA11089 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 07:25:45 -0400 From: Steve Simmons Message-Id: <199406201125.HAA11089@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Subject: This Weeks Idiot Error Message Award To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers Mailing List) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 07:25:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 799 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There was a smiley on that subject line, in case any of you missed it. >To: Firewalls-Digest@GreatCircle.COM >Subject: Firewalls Digest V3 #195 > >Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM >error codes. > > VNM3043: MSH5@CnoIp@CTS > >------------------ Error number Explanation Follows ------------------- > >VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL. > > The message cannot be delivered because the > recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of > messages, as set by the system administrator. The > recipient must delete some messages before any > other messages can be delivered. . . . Actually, this would be a pretty good message if it hadn't been sent to the entire firewalls mailing list. Context is sometimes everything. From owner-list-managers-archive Mon Jun 20 09:34:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA25015; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 16:12:12 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA25008; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:12:04 -0700 Message-Id: <199406201612.JAA25008@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Steve Simmons cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers Mailing List) Subject: Re: This Weeks Idiot Error Message Award In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 20 Jun 1994 07:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 09:12:03 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steve Simmons writes: # There was a smiley on that subject line, in case any of you missed it. # # >To: Firewalls-Digest@GreatCircle.COM # >Subject: Firewalls Digest V3 #195 # > # >Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM # >error codes. # > # > VNM3043: MSH5@CnoIp@CTS # > # >------------------ Error number Explanation Follows ------------------- # > # >VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL. # > # > The message cannot be delivered because the # > recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of # > messages, as set by the system administrator. The # > recipient must delete some messages before any # > other messages can be delivered. . . . # # Actually, this would be a pretty good message if it hadn't been sent # to the entire firewalls mailing list. Context is sometimes everything. # Yeah, except my keyboard doesn't HAVE an F1 key... I've been seeing a lot of these lately. I think it's some sort of Banyan gateway or something like that. Grr... -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From owner-list-managers-archive Mon Jun 20 17:01:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA25915; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 17:01:24 GMT Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA25909; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 10:00:56 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDRND15VSG000AZ4@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 14:02:51 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HDRNCOYCHC00IOXW@AC.DAL.CA>; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 14:02:42 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA05908; Mon, 20 Jun 94 13:57:51 -0300 Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 13:57:51 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: This Weeks Idiot Error Message Award In-reply-to: <199406201612.JAA25008@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "Brent Chapman" at Jun 20, 94 09:12:03 am To: brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers Mailing List) Message-id: <9406201657.AA05908@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 634 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ># > VNM3043: MSH5@CnoIp@CTS ># > ># >------------------ Error number Explanation Follows ------------------- ># > ># >VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL. > >I've been seeing a lot of these lately. I think it's some sort of >Banyan gateway or something like that. Grr... Yep, it's a Banyan Vines message. Unfortunately many mailers are only designed to work with their own system, and Vines is probably the worst. Bill -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca (the address bill@biome.bio.ns.ca is only for mailing lists) From owner-list-managers-archive Mon Jun 20 18:23:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id AAA01080; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 00:42:37 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA01074; Mon, 20 Jun 1994 17:42:24 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA17713; Mon, 20 Jun 94 20:44:22 EDT Message-Id: <9406210044.AA17713@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 20 Jun 1994 20:01 EDT Subject: Coexistence of moderated and unmoderated mailing lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 1. Is there an Internet convention (de facto or otherwise) for naming moderated versions of unmoderated mailing lists? I.e., one list already exists (let's say the unmoderated one) and I want to create a moderated one in addition. If not, I propose "-m" as a suffix. E.g., a moderated version of this list would be list-managers-m@greatcircle.com An exception would be for those Bitnet lists that end in -l, in which case the -m would replace the -l, e.g., cdrom-l@uccvma.ucop.edu would be cdrom-m@uccvma.ucop.edu 2. When moderated and unmoderated lists coexist (assume they are on the same machine with the same administrator), it would seem that a setup as described below would work much better than having independent lists: Members sign up for only one of the two lists. Anything sent to the moderated list approval address is automatically mailed to the UN-moderated list immediately, and subsequently to the moderated list if approved. (Can you think of any reason why someone other than the administrator would want to send a message *only* to the moderated list?) This would avoid problems of requiring people to resubmit to the unmoderated list if the submission to the moderated list were rejected, the effect of moderator approval delays affecting the timeliness of these resubmissions, etc. 3. Do listservs in general, and Majordomo in particular, have special feature for dealing with the *interaction* between moderated and unmoderated versions of the same list as described in (2)? I think this primarily means automatic posting of submissions to the moderated list to the unmoderated list as well, at the same time as it is mailed to the moderator for approval. --- Shahrukh Merchant shahrukh_merchant@att.com From owner-list-managers-archive Tue Jun 21 14:10:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA06580; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 14:10:47 GMT Received: from mailman.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA06567; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:10:31 -0700 Received: by mailman.nsf.gov id AA19350 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:13:15 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:13:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Ravin Asar Subject: Re: Coexistence of moderated and unmoderated mailing lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9406210044.AA17713@ig1.att.att.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Moderation or non-moderation of a list is purely a local administrative decision. Subscribers should not have to be concerned with knowing that whether a list is moderated or not. I don't believe we need yet another "standard" to deal with mailing lists - people can't even get used to exisiting conventions such as "list-request" addresses for simple administrivial requests. -Ravin Asar National Science Foundation Postmaster, Hostmaster (IMHO) On 20 Jun 1994, s.merchant wrote: > 1. Is there an Internet convention (de facto or otherwise) for naming > moderated versions of unmoderated mailing lists? I.e., one list > already exists (let's say the unmoderated one) and I want to create > a moderated one in addition. > > If not, I propose "-m" as a suffix. E.g., a moderated version of > this list would be > list-managers-m@greatcircle.com > An exception would be for those Bitnet lists that end in -l, in > which case the -m would replace the -l, e.g., cdrom-l@uccvma.ucop.edu > would be > cdrom-m@uccvma.ucop.edu ... > --- > Shahrukh Merchant > shahrukh_merchant@att.com > From owner-list-managers-archive Tue Jun 21 07:33:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA06715; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 14:20:45 GMT Received: from unpc.queernet.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA06706; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 07:20:31 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0qG6dQ-00017CC; Tue, 21 Jun 94 07:17 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 07:17 PDT From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) To: brent@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: This Weeks Idiot Error Message Award In-Reply-To: <199406201612.JAA25008@mycroft.greatcircle.com> References: brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Organization: QueerNet Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199406201612.JAA25008@mycroft.greatcircle.com> you write: ># >Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM ># >error codes. ># > ># > VNM3043: MSH5@CnoIp@CTS ># > ># >------------------ Error number Explanation Follows ------------------- ># > ># >VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL. > >Yeah, except my keyboard doesn't HAVE an F1 key... Hey, *you're* lucky. I keep getting them *with* "press F1" and *without* the explanation... -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From owner-list-managers-archive Tue Jun 21 15:04:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA07249; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 15:04:10 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA07228; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 08:03:44 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA24016 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:05:50 -0400 Message-Id: <199406211505.AA24016@cs.umb.edu> To: Ravin Asar Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Coexistence of moderated and unmoderated mailing lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jun 1994 10:13:14 EDT." Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:05:49 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Ravin Asar writes: >Moderation or non-moderation of a list is purely a local administrative >decision. Subscribers should not have to be concerned with knowing that >whether a list is moderated or not. It depends, does the moderation of the list reduce the noise content of the list, while keeping the information content? Do you like laughing at the fools who post noise and who "just don't get it"? In this case having an unmoderated and a moderated version of the list may very well be a good idea. I liken it to the difference between a standard mailing list and a digest of the same list. Same information, just different form. With the moderated/unmoderated lists, you have the same "information content" for some definition of "information content", but with differing amounts of distraction information. -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From owner-list-managers-archive Tue Jun 21 18:49:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA09602; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 18:49:17 GMT Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA09596; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:49:09 -0700 From: JR1@cup.portal.com Received: from hobo.corp.portal.com (hobo.corp.portal.com [156.151.1.14]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.7/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA12808 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:53:03 -0700 Received: from localhost (pccop@localhost) by hobo.corp.portal.com (8.6.4/1.50) id LAA16381 for list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Jun 1994 11:53:04 -0700 To: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Lines: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 94 11:53:04 PDT Message-ID: <9406211153.1.15189@cup.portal.com> X-Origin: The Portal System (TM) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk help From owner-list-managers-archive Wed Jun 22 14:21:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA29595; Wed, 22 Jun 1994 21:15:46 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA29588; Wed, 22 Jun 1994 14:15:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 14:15:29 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.180] (mac180.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Wed, 22 Jun 94 17:08 EDT Subject: Centralized source of info? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello folks I have a question: Is there a centralized source for list management type information, like an ftp site and docs for the various versions of list software, and info of what the relative advantages of each are? In addition, is there a place for info on automated mail software (like autoresponders, etc.)? Thanks in advance. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. _____________________________ School of Natural Science | mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu | Hampshire College, ----------------------------- Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 Listowner: Feminists in Science and Technology (FIST@dawn.hampshire.edu) Minority Health Issues (MINHLTH@dawn.hampshire.edu) List Facilitator:Sistah-net (Sistah-request@hamp.hampshire.edu) Co-moderator, sci.med.aids =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=