From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 1 04:39:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA20202; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 10:13:55 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id DAA20194; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 03:13:25 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA06433; Mon, 1 Aug 94 12:16:07 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA21926; Mon, 1 Aug 94 12:15:24 +0200 Message-Id: <9408011015.AA21926@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 12:15:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: Gene Rackow's message as of 1994 Jul 29 Fri 17:09. <199407292209.RAA26818@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Policies and problems of lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gene Rackow wrote: >This is one of the reasons that the sun-managers mailing list has 2 >very useful features. >1. A list of addresses that is checks to see if the mail should be refused. >This is for the case above where they get the message and remail it back >with new message-id, etc. > basicly "if (from == bozo-in-list) exit" >2. A database of message-id's that have already been feed through the list. >In this way, the sites that misconfigure their alias to include the main >list, or improper use of mail->news->mail drops these messages and users >do not get upset. >One of these days, if time ever permits, I'm going to add those features >into the resend of majordomo. Hopefully someone will beat me to it. ;-) Or switch to SmartList, which has does both already :-). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). In this signature, the concluding three words `were left out'. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 1 21:08:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id VAA25245; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 21:08:11 GMT Received: from houston.chron.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA25238; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 14:08:00 -0700 Received: from relay.chron.com by houston.chron.com with SMTP id AA23224 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 1 Aug 1994 16:11:57 -0500 Received: from magic706.chron.com by relay.chron.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11653; Mon, 1 Aug 94 16:11:56 CDT Received: by magic706.chron.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00643; Mon, 1 Aug 94 16:12:44 CDT Date: Mon, 1 Aug 94 16:12:44 CDT From: Matt.Cohen@chron.com (Matt Cohen) Message-Id: <9408012112.AA00643@magic706.chron.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Novice Users Message? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As a maintainer of a list frequented by newcomers to electronic mail and the Internet, I get a lot of administrative requests sent to the main list address. Luckily, majordomo catches most of them (thanks, Brent and John!). Does anyone have a nice help document that I can use to introduce new users to Internet-style (-request) and listserv mailing list usage? -- Matt @8^1 -- Matt.Cohen@chron.com Houston Chronicle From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 2 18:09:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA04127; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 18:09:29 GMT Received: from audumla.students.wisc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA04121; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 11:08:59 -0700 Received: from [144.92.17.180] by audumla.students.wisc.edu; id NAA23236; 8.1C/42; Tue, 2 Aug 1994 13:08:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199408021808.NAA23236@audumla.students.wisc.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 12:05:26 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: borton@macc.wisc.edu (Barry Orton) X-Sender: bmorton@facstaff.wisc.edu Subject: Did my list just get spammed? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My list software just rejected a posting that looks suspiciously like spam. It came from something called the Wisdom Society in San Marcos, CA at the address: WISDOM@POWERGRID.ELECTRICITI.COM It sought "GOD/MAN/LIFE ESSAYS" and purported to: " pay $750 for each of the best original essays written on the following four topics: "Reverence for Life - YES" or "Reverence for Life - NO" or "God Created Man" or "Man Invented God." The long message that followed has nothing whatever to do with telecommunications regulation, the subject of my list, TELECOMREG. Did my list just get spammed? ############################################################################## Barry Orton Voice/fax: (608) 262-2394 Professor of Telecommunications Internet: borton@macc.wisc.edu University of Wisconsin-Madison Listowner: TELECOMREG 6l0 Langdon St. Madison, WI 53703 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 3 10:32:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA13701; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 17:05:29 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA13694; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 10:05:03 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA01605; Wed, 3 Aug 94 10:08:53 PDT X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Wed, 3 Aug 94 10:03:30 PDT From: "Floyd Maxwell" Reply-To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca Message-Id: <36215.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have noticed that many lists (e.g. PC-L, WinDev-L) do not have a digest option. Does anyone know why this is so? With the exception of PC-L and WinDev-L, I won't even subscribe, or will quickly unsubscribe, if a list does not have a Digest option (as I receive over 400 messages per day). It seems to me that the Digest option is one of the most useful for the user, and also one of most important for the list host as it reduces the list's demands on the host. ...Just thought this smelled of "opportunity" for the writers/owners of ListServ (and others) that do support the Digest option. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Floyd Maxwell Internet: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca | | Manager, Computer and Technical Systems Voice: (604) 822-6503 | | UBC Food Group Fax: (604) 822-2384 | | The University of British Columbia CIS: 71414,1124 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Many people feel that the Internet is hopelessly complex. This is a gross| |exaggeration. Incredibly complex is a more accurate assessment. Actually,| |the Internet is no more difficult to fully comprehend than, say, life. | | -- John Edwards, contributing editor, CompuServe Magazine (70007,412) | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 3 11:33:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA14381; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:25:25 GMT Received: from de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA14371; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 11:25:13 -0700 Received: (from de5@localhost) by de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA16011; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 14:29:04 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 14:29:04 -0400 From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199408031829.OAA16011@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-Reply-To: <36215.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> References: <36215.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.70.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.10 Lucid of Wed May 25 1994 on tile.cs.colorado.edu (berkeley-unix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I have noticed that many lists (e.g. PC-L, WinDev-L) do not have a >digest option. > >Does anyone know why this is so? Not all lists are run by a server that supports digests. Some aren't run by a server at all. There are lists, like the two I run: alpha-osf-managers and decstation-managers, for which digesting is inappropriate. Timely delivery of messages is crucial, and waiting 12 or 24 hours for a message to be sent is unacceptable. >It seems to me that the Digest option is one of the most useful for the >user, and also one of most important for the list host as it reduces the >list's demands on the host. It's great where it's appropriate, but even though I receive hundreds of message/day, I *hate* digests because they're often huge and unwieldy. It's harder to skip messages/threads I don't want to read, and replying is also more work. My mail agent can "undigestify" digests--if they're in the right format--but they're not all formatted consistently. -Dave From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 3 18:55:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA14759; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:55:27 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA14752; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 11:55:15 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA19085; Wed, 3 Aug 94 11:59:00 PDT Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 11:58:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Porter Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( To: Floyd Maxwell Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <36215.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Aug 1994, Floyd Maxwell wrote: > I have noticed that many lists (e.g. PC-L, WinDev-L) do not have a > digest option. [deletia] > It seems to me that the Digest option is one of the most useful for the > user, and also one of most important for the list host as it reduces the > list's demands on the host. Personally, I prefer the INDEX option on LISTSERV. Lets the user wade through by subject and request the interesting options. More importantly, I feel, the automatic archiving and database retrieval are also important to users (well, they are to me at least). (The manner in which manner posters write to LISTSERV mail lists makes me wonder if they are aware of the rather permanent nature of their posts). my $0.02 worth, richard m porter forest economics and policy analysis university of british columbia From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 4 00:02:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id AAA19468; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 00:02:41 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA25334; Mon, 1 Aug 1994 14:20:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199408012120.OAA25334@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Matt.Cohen@chron.com (Matt Cohen) cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Novice Users Message? In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 1 Aug 94 16:12:44 CDT Date: Mon, 01 Aug 1994 14:20:54 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Matt.Cohen@chron.com (Matt Cohen) writes: # As a maintainer of a list frequented by newcomers to electronic # mail and the Internet, I get a lot of administrative requests sent # to the main list address. Luckily, majordomo catches most of them # (thanks, Brent and John!). # # Does anyone have a nice help document that I can use to introduce # new users to Internet-style (-request) and listserv mailing list usage? # # -- Matt @8^1 # # -- # Matt.Cohen@chron.com # Houston Chronicle Last time I needed to make the point, I extracted the relevant portion from the "Emily Postnews" document (included in its entirety below; you might find lots of other useful stuff in it). -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates Path: bloom-beacon.mit.edu!hookup!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!deshaw.com!do-not-use-path-to-reply Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 08:00:08 GMT Supersedes: Expires: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:00:06 GMT Message-ID: Approved: netannounce@deshaw.com (Mark Moraes) From: netannounce@deshaw.com (Mark Moraes) Subject: Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette Newsgroups: news.announce.newusers,news.answers Reply-To: brad@clarinet.com Followup-To: news.newusers.questions Lines: 391 Xref: bloom-beacon.mit.edu news.announce.newusers:574 news.answers:21649 Original-author: brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) Archive-name: emily-postnews/part1 Last-change: 15 Mar 94 by scs@eskimo.com (Steve Summit) **NOTE: this is intended to be satirical. If you do not recognize it as such, consult a doctor or professional comedian. The recommendations in this article should recognized for what they are -- admonitions about what NOT to do. "Dear Emily Postnews" Emily Postnews, foremost authority on proper net behaviour, gives her advice on how to act on the net. ============================================================================ Dear Miss Postnews: How long should my signature be? -- verbose@noisy A: Dear Verbose: Please try and make your signature as long as you can. It's much more important than your article, of course, so try to have more lines of signature than actual text. Try to include a large graphic made of ASCII characters, plus lots of cute quotes and slogans. People will never tire of reading these pearls of wisdom again and again, and you will soon become personally associated with the joy each reader feels at seeing yet another delightful repeat of your signature. Be sure as well to include a complete map of USENET with each signature, to show how anybody can get mail to you from any site in the world. Be sure to include Internet gateways as well. Also tell people on your own site how to mail to you. Give independent addresses for Internet, UUCP, and BITNET, even if they're all the same. Aside from your reply address, include your full name, company and organization. It's just common courtesy -- after all, in some newsreaders people have to type an *entire* keystroke to go back to the top of your article to see this information in the header. By all means include your phone number and street address in every single article. People are always responding to usenet articles with phone calls and letters. It would be silly to go to the extra trouble of including this information only in articles that need a response by conventional channels! ------ Dear Emily: Today I posted an article and forgot to include my signature. What should I do? -- forgetful@myvax A: Dear Forgetful: Rush to your terminal right away and post an article that says, "Oops, I forgot to post my signature with that last article. Here it is." Since most people will have forgotten your earlier article, (particularly since it dared to be so boring as to not have a nice, juicy signature) this will remind them of it. Besides, people care much more about the signature anyway. See the previous letter for more important details. Also, be sure to include your signature TWICE in each article. That way you're sure people will read it. ------ Dear Ms. Postnews: I couldn't get mail through to somebody on another site. What should I do? -- eager@beaver.dam A: Dear Eager: No problem, just post your message to a group that a lot of people read. Say, "This is for John Smith. I couldn't get mail through so I'm posting it. All others please ignore." This way tens of thousands of people will spend a few seconds scanning over and ignoring your article, using up over 16 man-hours their collective time, but you will be saved the terrible trouble of checking through Usenet maps or looking for alternate routes. Just think, if you couldn't distribute your message to 30,000 other computers, you might actually have to (gasp) call directory assistance for 60 cents, or even phone the person. This can cost as much as a few DOLLARS (!) for a 5 minute call! And certainly it's better to spend 10 to 20 dollars of other people's money distributing the message then for you to have to waste $9 on an overnight letter, or even 29 cents on a stamp! Don't forget. The world will end if your message doesn't get through, so post it as many places as you can. ------ Q: What about a test message? A: It is important, when testing, to test the entire net. Never test merely a subnet distribution when the whole net can be done. Also put "please ignore" on your test messages, since we all know that everybody always skips a message with a line like that. Don't use a subject like "My sex is female but I demand to be addressed as male." because such articles are read in depth by all USEnauts. ------ Q: Somebody just posted that Roman Polanski directed Star Wars. What should I do? A: Post the correct answer at once! We can't have people go on believing that! Very good of you to spot this. You'll probably be the only one to make the correction, so post as soon as you can. No time to lose, so certainly don't wait a day, or check to see if somebody else has made the correction. And it's not good enough to send the message by mail. Since you're the only one who really knows that it was Francis Coppola, you have to inform the whole net right away! ------ Q: I read an article that said, "reply by mail, I'll summarize." What should I do? A: Post your response to the whole net. That request applies only to dumb people who don't have something interesting to say. Your postings are much more worthwhile than other people's, so it would be a waste to reply by mail. ------ Q: I collected replies to an article I wrote, and now it's time to summarize. What should I do? A: Simply concatenate all the articles together into a big file and post that. On USENET, this is known as a summary. It lets people read all the replies without annoying newsreaders getting in the way. Do the same when summarizing a vote. ------ Q: I saw a long article that I wish to rebut carefully, what should I do? A: Include the entire text with your article, particularly the signature, and include your comments closely packed between the lines. Be sure to post, and not mail, even though your article looks like a reply to the original. Everybody *loves* to read those long point-by-point debates, especially when they evolve into name-calling and lots of "Is too!" -- "Is not!" -- "Is too, twizot!" exchanges. Be sure to follow-up everything, and never let another person get in the last word on a net debate. Why, if people let other people have the last word, then discussions would actually stop! Remember, other net readers aren't nearly as clever as you, and if somebody posts something wrong, the readers can't possibly realize that on their own without your elucidations. If somebody gets insulting in their net postings, the best response is to get right down to their level and fire a return salvo. When I read one net person make an insulting attack on another, I always immediately take it as gospel unless a rebuttal is posted. It never makes me think less of the insulter, so it's your duty to respond. ------ Q: How can I choose what groups to post in? A: Pick as many as you can, so that you get the widest audience. After all, the net exists to give you an audience. Ignore those who suggest you should only use groups where you think the article is highly appropriate. Pick all groups where anybody might even be slightly interested. Always make sure followups go to all the groups. In the rare event that you post a followup which contains something original, make sure you expand the list of groups. Never include a "Followup-to:" line in the header, since some people might miss part of the valuable discussion in the fringe groups. ------ Q: How about an example? A: Ok. Let's say you want to report that Gretzky has been traded from the Oilers to the Kings. Now right away you might think rec.sport.hockey would be enough. WRONG. Many more people might be interested. This is a big trade! Since it's a NEWS article, it belongs in the news.* hierarchy as well. If you are a news admin, or there is one on your machine, try news.admin. If not, use news.misc. The Oilers are probably interested in geology, so try sci.geo.fluids. He is a big star, so post to sci.astro, and sci.space because they are also interested in stars. And of course comp.dcom.telecom because he was born in the birthplace of the telephone. And because he's Canadian, post to soc.culture.Ontario.southwestern. But that group doesn't exist, so cross-post to news.groups suggesting it should be created. With this many groups of interest, your article will be quite bizarre, so post to talk.bizarre as well. (And post to comp.std.mumps, since they hardly get any articles there, and a "comp" group will propagate your article further.) You may also find it is more fun to post the article once in each group. If you list all the newsgroups in the same article, some newsreaders will only show the the article to the reader once! Don't tolerate this. ------ Q: How do I create a newsgroup? A: The easiest way goes something like "inews -C newgroup ....", and while that will stir up lots of conversation about your new newsgroup, it might not be enough. First post a message in news.groups describing the group. This is a "call for discussion." (If you see a call for discussion, immediately post a one line message saying that you like or dislike the group.) When proposing the group, pick a name with a TLA (three-letter acronym) that will be understood only by "in" readers of the group. After the call for discussion, post the call for flames, followed by a call for arguments about the name and a call for run-on puns. Eventually make a call for "votes." USENET is a democracy, so voters can now all post their votes to ensure they get to all 30,000 machines instead of just the person counting. Every few days post a long summary of all the votes so that people can complain about bad mailers and double votes. It means you'll be more popular and get lots of mail. At the end of 21 days you can post the vote results so that people can argue about all the technical violations of the guidelines you made. Blame them on the moderator-of-the-week for news.announce.newgroups. Then your group might be created. To liven up discussion, choose a good cross-match for your hierarchy and group. For example, comp.race.formula1 or soc.vlsi.design would be good group names. If you want your group created quickly, include an interesting word like "sex" or "activism." To avoid limiting discussion, make the name as broad as possible, and don't forget that TLA. If possible, count votes from a leaf site with a once-a-week polled connection to botswanavax. Schedule the vote during your relay site's head crash if possible. Under no circumstances use the trial group method, because it eliminates the discussion, flame, pun, voting and guideline-violation accusation phases, thus taking all the fun out of it. To create an ALT group, simply issue the creation command. Then issue an rmgroup and some more newgroup messages to save other netters the trouble of doing that part. ------ Q: I cant spell worth a dam. I hope your going too tell me what to do? A: Don't worry about how your articles look. Remember it's the message that counts, not the way it's presented. Ignore the fact that sloppy spelling in a purely written forum sends out the same silent messages that soiled clothing would when addressing an audience. ------ Q: How should I pick a subject for my articles? A: Keep it short and meaningless. That way people will be forced to actually read your article to find out what's in it. This means a bigger audience for you, and we all know that's what the net is for. If you do a followup, be sure and keep the same subject, even if it's totally meaningless and not part of the same discussion. If you don't, you won't catch all the people who are looking for stuff on the original topic, and that means less audience for you. ------ Q: What sort of tone should I take in my article? A: Be as outrageous as possible. If you don't say outlandish things, and fill your article with libelous insults of net people, you may not stick out enough in the flood of articles to get a response. The more insane your posting looks, the more likely it is that you'll get lots of followups. The net is here, after all, so that you can get lots of attention. If your article is polite, reasoned and to the point, you may only get mailed replies. Yuck! ------ Q: The posting software suggested I had too long a signature and too many lines of included text in my article. What's the best course? A: Such restrictions were put in the software for no reason at all, so don't even try to figure out why they might apply to your article. Turns out most people search the net to find nice articles that consist of the complete text of an earlier article plus a few lines. In order to help these people, fill your article with dummy original lines to get past the restrictions. Everybody will thank you for it. For your signature, I know it's tough, but you will have to read it in with the editor. Do this twice to make sure it's firmly in there. By the way, to show your support for the free distribution of information, be sure to include a copyright message forbidding transmission of your article to sites whose USENET politics you don't like. Also, if you do have a lot of free time and want to trim down the text in your article, be sure to delete some of the attribution lines so that it looks like the original author of -- say -- a plea for world peace actually wrote the followup calling for the nuking of Bermuda. ------ Q: They just announced on the radio that the United States has invaded Iraq. Should I post? A: Of course. The net can reach people in as few as 3 to 5 days. It's the perfect way to inform people about such news events long after the broadcast networks have covered them. As you are probably the only person to have heard the news on the radio, be sure to post as soon as you can. ------ Q: I have this great joke. You see, these three strings walk into a bar... A: Oh dear. Don't spoil it for me. Submit it to rec.humor, and post it to the moderator of rec.humor.funny at the same time. I'm sure he's never seen that joke. ------ Q: What computer should I buy? An Atari ST or an Amiga? A: Cross post that question to the Atari and Amiga groups. It's an interesting and novel question that I am sure they would love to investigate in those groups. In fact, post your question at once, to as many technical groups as you can think of, concluding your request with the line "Please reply by mail, as I do not follow this group." (No one will find such a statement impertinent; remember, the net is a resource to help you.) There is no need to read the groups in advance or examine the "frequently asked question" lists to see if the topic has already been dealt with. Any such warnings are for people without your innate sense of netiquette, and whose uninspired questions are bound to be repetitive. Your question is sure to be unique; no point checking the list to see if the answer might be there already. How could it be, when you only just thought of the question? ------ Q: What about other important questions? How should I know when to post? A: Always post them. It would be a big waste of your time to find a knowledgeable user in one of the groups and ask through private mail if the topic has already come up. Much easier to bother thousands of people with the same question. ------ Q: Somebody just posted a query to the net, and I want to get the answer too. What should I do? A: Immediately post a following, including the complete text of the query. At the bottom add, "Me too!" If somebody else has done this, follow up their article and add "Me three," or whatever number is appropriate. Don't forget your full signature. After all, if you just mail the original poster and ask for a copy of the answers, you will simply clutter the poster's mailbox, and save people who do answer the question the joyful duty of noting all the "me (n)s" and sending off all the multiple copies. ------ Q: What is the measure of a worthwhile group? A: Why, it's Volume, Volume, Volume. Any group that has lots of noise in it must be good. Remember, the higher the volume of material in a group, the higher percentage of useful, factual and insightful articles you will find. In fact, if a group can't demonstrate a high enough volume, it should be deleted from the net. ------ Q: Emily, I'm having a serious disagreement with somebody on the net. I tried complaints to his sysadmin, organizing mail campaigns, called for his removal from the net and phoning his employer to get him fired. Everybody laughed at me. What can I do? A: Go to the daily papers. Most modern reporters are top-notch computer experts who will understand the net, and your problems, perfectly. They will print careful, reasoned stories without any errors at all, and surely represent the situation properly to the public. The public will also all act wisely, as they are also fully cognizant of the subtle nature of net society. Papers never sensationalize or distort, so be sure to point out things like racism and sexism wherever they might exist. Be sure as well that they understand that all things on the net, particularly insults, are meant literally. Link what transpires on the net to the causes of the Holocaust, if possible. If regular papers won't take the story, go to a tabloid paper -- they are always interested in good stories. By arranging all this free publicity for the net, you'll become very well known. People on the net will wait in eager anticipation for your every posting, and refer to you constantly. You'll get more mail than you ever dreamed possible -- the ultimate in net success. ------ Q: What does foobar stand for? A: It stands for you, dear. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 4 00:32:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id AAA19755; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 00:32:17 GMT Received: from pounce.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA19748; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 17:32:02 -0700 Received: by pounce.cs.UMD.EDU (8.6.9/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id UAA20743; Wed, 3 Aug 1994 20:35:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199408040035.UAA20743@pounce.cs.UMD.EDU> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 1994 14:29:04 EDT." <199408031829.OAA16011@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> Date: Wed, 03 Aug 1994 20:35:54 -0400 From: Dabe "Dabe" Murphy Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It's great where it's appropriate, but even though I receive hundreds > of message/day, I *hate* digests because they're often huge and > unwieldy. It's harder to skip messages/threads I don't want to read, > and replying is also more work. My mail agent can "undigestify" > digests--if they're in the right format--but they're not all formatted > consistently. I couldn't agree with this more. Unless you are on a system where you get charged per incoming message, regardless of its length (Mr. Subliminal mentions something about compu$erve), what difference is there in reading 5 messages as one or 5 messages as five? From a user's POV, I'd think resolving one message out of five would be easier if they were already split up for you, rather than having to save the whole thing because you thought 1/5 of it was particularly worthwhile. From a list manager's perspective, I can see the interest in keeping the number of connections down, but even though you're having to make 5 times as many MMDF/SMTP/ UUCP/etc. connections, each one is transporting only about 25% as much data (Figuring in the redundant header information, etc). That's a 25% difference I think I can deal with. All of this is, of course, MHO only. Dabe -- dabe@cs.umd.edu | A bowl for the cat, | Just because I agree with {...}!uunet!mimsy!dabe | A bowl for the dog, | everything my boss says | A bowl for me. | doesn't mean he agrees Finger for PGP2.3a Key | "Driving Song" - WSP | with everything I say. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 4 13:16:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id NAA25157; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 13:16:49 GMT Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id GAA25144; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 06:16:05 -0700 Received: from DialupEudora (ts1.noc.drexel.edu [129.25.12.13]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA25284 for ; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 09:18:41 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 09:19:54 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Bob Snyder) Subject: UNIX MIME digest software Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone know of some UNIX software that generates MIME multipart/digest messages? Bob -- Bob Snyder N2KGO MIME, RIPEM mail accepted snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu finger for RIPEM public key When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 4 13:36:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id NAA25337; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 13:36:18 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id GAA25331; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 06:36:00 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA01940; Thu, 4 Aug 94 15:38:47 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA04089; Thu, 4 Aug 94 15:37:58 +0200 Message-Id: <9408041337.AA04089@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 15:37:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: Bob Snyder's message as of 1994 Aug 4 Thu 9:19. To: snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Bob Snyder), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: UNIX MIME digest software Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Snyder wrote: >Anyone know of some UNIX software that generates MIME multipart/digest messages? SmartList does. I'm not quite certain, but Majordomo might be able to do so as well. ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de /pub/packages/procmail/SmartList.tar.gz -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Real programmers don't just die, they produce core dumps. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 4 16:34:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id QAA26619; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 16:34:32 GMT Received: from midway.uchicago.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id JAA26610; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 09:34:19 -0700 From: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Received: from kimbark.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for List-Managers@greatcircle.com Thu, 4 Aug 94 11:37:53 CDT Received: from localhost.uchicago.edu by kimbark.uchicago.edu (4.1/UCCO-1.0A) id AA21448; Thu, 4 Aug 94 11:37:39 CDT Message-Id: <9408041637.AA21448@kimbark.uchicago.edu> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Standards/convergence for list server software? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 04 Aug 94 01:10:08 PDT." <199408040810.BAA22863@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Thu, 04 Aug 94 11:37:38 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm wondering whether there have been any efforts directed towards discussing the possibility of convergence among Majordomo, Unix ListProc, LISTSERV, Smartlist, etc. towards something like a standard core set of end-subscriber commands, and list-owner commands, with various optional extensions possible? Something like, an Internet draft, citing RFC 1211 as a historical reference, but which then points out the pros and cons of the different features, and different command syntaxes, of all the major packages used on the Internet today, and suggests avenues of possible convergence towards a core server protocol, plus optional extensions to accomodate non-common features? (with implications for further convergence with http URL and MIME declaration interfaces, IMAP/IMSP/POP message retrieval, etc.?) Chris Koenigsberg: ckk@uchicago.edu, ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu U. of Chicago Academic Information Technologies From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 01:15:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA02243; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 01:15:06 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA02231; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 18:14:48 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA12649; Thu, 4 Aug 94 18:18:47 PDT X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Thu, 4 Aug 94 18:13:20 PDT From: "Floyd Maxwell" Reply-To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca Message-Id: <65604.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Lack of DIGEST option -- long (and hot in places) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I received 3 public responses and 1 private response to my post on the lack of digest options on some lists. I have decided to respond globally to the 3 public responses because they are all the same in one respect -- they all missed the point. But first, one last attempt to defend my *suggestion* of the need for a Digest *option* with additional information... #1 Prior to my digestifying all digestifiable lists, I found that I spent about 2 hours a day reading my eMail. Now, with about 50% more messages coming in, I spend just 1 hour and 15 minutes. #2 Digests reduce the need to repeatedly acquire messages during the day and then wait for them to be sucked back (because most Digests arrive overnight and can be acquired first thing in about 1/4 or 1/10 the time on my [Ethernet backbone connection] system -- clearly hand- shaking is a huge part of the process). I still reacquire throughout the day, for those seeking to argue this point, but what I receive is much less (in volume) and so is less disruptive of my work day and allows me to respond quicker because less filtering is needed throughout the day. #3 Deleting a message, waiting for the file to be moved to the trash directory and then displaying the next message takes about 3 seconds per message on my 486/66 with a caching controller. (450-50)*3=1,200 seconds ---- 20 minutes per day for this alone !!! I avoid all this by reading my Digests in my text editor/word processor [that shall remain nameless to avoid another flame thread]. I simply delete messages as I read through the Digest and then save what's left. #4 Digests also *** prioritize *** my eMail. Before I digestified, I thought I would need to get a second eMail address for time-sensitive eMails. Now that my In Box gets about 50 messages per day (with about a dozen being digests) instead of 450, the time-sensitive ones are (450/50=)9 times more visible. #5 One final point. As list owners, you must have observed what happens to a person when they try (ineffectively) to leave a list and are unsuccessful. They frequently generate a flurry of eMails, each louder and more intense than the previous until someone sends them the correct syntax or otherwise eases their pain. I think the reason for the excessive responses is because _they_continue_to_receive_messages_! (What a revolutionary thought) Now, if they were on Digest, they would send a signoff effort, it would not work, and, when they receive the next day's Digest they can read through it and learn why because someone will have responded. Also, in the 24 hours after the abortive signoff effort, others will (frequently) send direct email to them with the proper syntax etc. They send a second (successful) signoff, are sent one final Digest that they don't want and can easily delete and they are done. They are happier because they were not flooded with eMails (150 per day on the NOVELL list alone) after they "signed off", BUT, most significantly, notice how much less list traffic they generate. I think this is a substantial win-win situation in itself. Again, "power eMailers" need not use this feature if they don't want to. I do sympathize with those who are selective in what they retrieve due to the type of eMail connection they have or the volume of information they are trying to sift through or whatever. But, as stated before, *their* needs have already been looked after. * Set phasers to stun * - In response to Richard Porter: O.K. For you, the magic feature is INDEX. But that feature already exists -- thus you missed my point. - In response to Dave Sill: I never said, nor implied, that *all* lists had to support the Digest option. The lists I cited (and many others) should at least have the *option* for those that want it. One person's emergency post/ solution are ten other people's learning experience, and this does not need to occur at the speed of light. BTW, another list that doesn't have a Digest option is NETIQUETTE. Are you guys starting to see the ridiculousness of this option not existing yet? - In response to Dave Sill & Dabe "Dabe" Murphy who were trying to defend to the last man the Right to have non-Digested eMail: I have just one question: "Who were they fighting?" I said that *I* won't subscribe and was trying to suggest that for others with the same need that a Digest ***OPTION*** (hello!?!?!?) would be *NICE*. O.K. guys, try this little experiment: Imagine that I was one of your users. Would you have been this inhospitable to me? I don't believe either of you work for Job Security Unlimited... I was making a *suggestion* to improve the system for *some* users. I don't give an [expletive deleted] why you want undigested eMail BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY GOT IT! Last time I checked this list wasn't aliased to Alt.Rave.List.Features. Once again point missed. - In response to Dabe "Dabe" Murphy who said "something like": ..."Mr. Subliminal" ^^^^^^^^^^ Too subtle for me, Dabe. What was your point _here_? "...mentions something about Compu$serve..." It's called a .SIGnature Dabe. I didn't mention anything about CIS in the Text of my post. In this case it wasn't a point missed but a point fabricated. I'm sure that _some_ people out there got the gist of my suggestion. To them I say -- "Please consider my suggestion, and have a nice day!" +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Floyd Maxwell Internet: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca | | Manager, Computer and Technical Systems Voice: (604) 822-6503 | | UBC Food Group Fax: (604) 822-2384 | | The University of British Columbia CIS: 71414,1124 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Many people feel that the Internet is hopelessly complex. This is a gross| |exaggeration. Incredibly complex is a more accurate assessment. Actually,| |the Internet is no more difficult to fully comprehend than, say, life. | | -- John Edwards, contributing editor, CompuServe Magazine (70007,412) | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 01:55:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA02531; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 01:55:25 GMT Received: from de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA02525; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 18:55:15 -0700 Received: (from de5@localhost) by de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id VAA19001; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 21:59:08 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Aug 1994 21:59:08 -0400 From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199408050159.VAA19001@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Lack of DIGEST option -- long (and hot in places) In-Reply-To: <65604.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> References: <65604.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.65 (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.22.1 of Thu Mar 24 1994 on sws1 (berkeley-unix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Pardon me for following up on this publicly, I realize it's now got nothing to do with the technical aspects of list administration. Floyd "Digestify Me" Maxwell wrote: >I have decided to respond globally to the 3 public responses because >they are all the same in one respect -- they all missed the point. Hmm. We *all* missed the point...maybe it wasn't clear to us exactly what your point was. >[Floyd goes on and on about the benefits of digests--preaching to the >choir on this list.] >- In response to Dave Sill & Dabe "Dabe" Murphy who were trying to > defend to the last man the Right to have non-Digested eMail: > > I have just one question: "Who were they fighting?" Excuse me, Floyd, but I was merely attempting to explain that digests aren't always appropriate. If that misses your point, fine. There's no need to flame me. > I said that *I* won't subscribe and was trying to suggest that for > others with the same need that a Digest ***OPTION*** (hello!?!?!?) > would be *NICE*. Floyd, sometimes even the *option* of a digest is inappropriate. > O.K. guys, try this little experiment: > Imagine that I was one of your users. Would you have been this > inhospitable to me? I don't believe either of you work for Job > Security Unlimited... I would have explained, in a manner very similar to my reply to you, that it doesn't make sense for my lists. I would also have explained that none of my 1600+ subscribers have ever asked for digest, and that I don't have the time/resources to implement it anyway--even though my list manager (Majordomo) support it. My job security doesn't depend on me being Mr. Nice Guy to every (nonpaying) subscriber that requests a feature regardless of its appropriateness on my lists. > I was making a *suggestion* to improve the system for *some* users. > I don't give an [expletive deleted] why you want undigested eMail > BECAUSE YOU'VE ALREADY GOT IT! Last time I checked this list > wasn't aliased to Alt.Rave.List.Features. Once again point missed. Once again, an unneccesary flame. Chill out, Floyd. >I'm sure that _some_ people out there got the gist of my >suggestion. To them I say -- "Please consider my suggestion, >and have a nice day!" Oh, it was a *suggestion*. I see. So we should have either taken it or not, and any attempt at discussion would be considered an attack--regardless of its intent or polite tone--and would therefore be subject to a condecending public flame in a technical mailing list. Sheesh. *plonk* -Dave From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 03:58:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id DAA03668; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 03:58:33 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id UAA03662; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 20:58:20 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24080>; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 00:02:14 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-reply-to: fmaxwell's message of Wed, 03 Aug 1994 13:03:30 -0400. <36215.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 00:02:07 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Aug5.000214edt.24080@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I suspect that properly dealing with digests adds a fair amount of 'interesting' complexity to the design of a mailing list manager, especially if you want to treat digest/no digest as a subscription option instead of, essentially, a sepperate list. In the face of this, and given that powerful mail filtering tools exist for the most commonly used Internet systems (ie, Unix boxes), it doesn't surprise me at all that some authors have opted to skip the whole thing. One obvious addition of complexity is that the mailing list manager is no longer just dealing with the list of subscribers; now it must hook into the actual mail distribution system. Also, it now needs its own allotment of scratch space to build digests in, and some periodic invocation of a housekeeping program (unless you send digests strictly when N bytes has piled up). Given what I want out of a mailing list manager that I use, if I was writing one I wouldn't put the feature in. All of this is biased by sitting on a Unix machine with a powerful mail filtering program (procmail) and a good, fast mail reader that deals well with high volume (MH). My sympathies go out to people in more restricted environments. - cks From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 06:59:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id GAA04704; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 06:59:47 GMT Received: from druuna.uco.es by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id XAA04693; Thu, 4 Aug 1994 23:59:36 -0700 Received: from lucano.uco.es by druuna.uco.es (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04951; Fri, 5 Aug 94 09:02:12 +0200 Received: by lucano.uco.es (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19710; Tue, 2 Aug 94 13:24:02 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 Aug 94 13:24:02 +0200 From: et2esgoj@lucano.uco.es (Juan Antonio Espejo Gonzalez) Message-Id: <9408021124.AA19710@lucano.uco.es> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: help Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk help help From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 04:20:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA06110; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:22:36 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id DAA06104; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 03:22:16 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:25:43 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:25:41 +0200 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:25:41 +0200 Message-Id: <199408051025.18019.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Chris Siebenmann's message of Fri, 5 Aug 1994 00:02:07 -0400 <94Aug5.000214edt.24080@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Chris Siebenmann: | [...] given that powerful mail filtering tools exist for the most | commonly used Internet systems (ie, Unix boxes), it doesn't surprise | me at all that some authors have opted to skip the whole thing. Hear, hear! All of Floyd Maxwell problems with undigestifed mail was self-inflicted in the sense that upgrading his software would help him out. I think it is a bit rich to ask list-managers to put up with a lot of extra hassle instead of just using procmail or elm's filter package (which can be used stand-alone). Here's the required line to filter out list-managers using elm's filter: to "List-Managers" ? save "/hom/kjetilho/mail/inn/list-managers" Not that hard, is it? Also note that if you use X, you can make one xbiff (or whatever) for each incoming mail box. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 04:25:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id IAA05337; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 08:37:34 GMT Received: from isolde.fct.unl.pt by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA05331; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 01:37:19 -0700 Received: from tristan.fct.unl.pt by isolde.fct.unl.pt with SMTP id AA09115 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:41:00 +0200 Received: by tristan.fct.unl.pt id AA18578 (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 5 Aug 94 10:40:51 +0200 Message-Id: <9408050840.AA18578@tristan.fct.unl.pt> X-Sender: px@pop.fct.unl.pt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:42:59 +0000 To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca, List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: px@fct.unl.pt (Joaquim Baptista [pxQuim]) Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option -- long (and hot in places) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 18:13 94/08/04 -0700, Floyd Maxwell wrote: >#5 One final point. As list owners, you must have observed what >happens to a person when they try (ineffectively) to leave a list >and are unsuccessful. They frequently generate a flurry of eMails, >each louder and more intense than the previous until someone sends >them the correct syntax or otherwise eases their pain. > >I think the reason for the excessive responses is because >_they_continue_to_receive_messages_! (What a revolutionary thought) >Now, if they were on Digest, they would send a signoff effort, it >would not work, and, when they receive the next day's Digest they >can read through it and learn why because someone will have responded. Even better than this, a digest has space for "administrative info" like how to subscribe/unsubscribe (see the majordomo-based FireWalls-Digest@greatcircle.com for an example), which helps to avoid the problem altogether. Joaquim Baptista, aka pxQuim Dept. Informatica, Univ. Nova de Lisboa, Portugal px@fct.unl.pt ... +351-1-295 3220 ... fax +351-1-295 5641 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 16:11:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id QAA08405; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 16:11:28 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id JAA08399; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 09:11:02 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA29567; Fri, 5 Aug 94 09:14:54 PDT X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 09:09:26 PDT From: "Floyd Maxwell" Reply-To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca Message-Id: <32972.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> To: rmporter@unixg.ubc.ca Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option -- shorter (and cooling down) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Not hot enough Floyd! O.K. :-) >I receive the Digest for some lists that offer that option, the Index of >others and strict email for more (especially those I adminster and >archive). My biggest beef with the UNIXG administrators is that they >insist in only running unix alias lists. I have inquired about Listproc >or Unix Listserv or majordomo or SmarList, and any automating >software--but, all I get is silence. I'm guessing here, but does that mean/explain why there isn't a UBC-L ? I sure would like something like that. I find RN to be a very inefficient use of my time. Also, would it be possible and/or feasible for you or me to run a list on a Novell server, thereby getting to choose the list software ourselves? >I really believe the problem you are having is related to the software >carried by the host site, and not the List managers themselves. List >managers/owners have little or no control over how their mail is going to >be reflected; that particular decision is entirely up to the host site. ^^^^^^^^^ Maybe this is the key to my understanding of things... [strain, creak] So this is really a "political" (or economic) decision that is out of the list manager's hands. Hmmm. That explains it more... >Convincing code writers/hackers to provide the Digest option is sort of >futile--it already exists on most of the recent versions of automated >lists software. But not all lists use the most up to date software >because their host sites haven't yet acquired them (you can guess at the >reasons why). Fair enough. I appreciate the insights. Part of what prompted my posts is that NOVELL is considering becoming a default-to-Digest or straight Digest list as two of a number of possible ways of trying to handle its tremendous volume and had asked its subscribers for input. It thus made sense to me to ask "the source" why at least the Digest option wasn't available more widely, given that it provided benefits for both host and clients. I guess offending at least one person is par for the course when "change" is involved, but I'm sorry it happened. >regards, > >richard m porter >forest economics and policy analysis >university of british columbia Thanks again, Floyd. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 17:06:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA08800; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 17:06:32 GMT Received: from relay.surfnet.nl by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA08794; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:06:17 -0700 Received: from erasmus.rare.nl by relay.surfnet.nl with SMTP (PP) id <10810-0@relay.surfnet.nl>; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 19:10:00 +0200 Received: by erasmus.rare.nl (5.65c/4.31) id AA22244; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 19:09:59 +0200 From: martin@rare.nl (John Martin) Message-Id: <199408051709.AA22244@erasmus.rare.nl> Subject: Re: Standards/convergence for list server software? To: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 19:09:58 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9408041637.AA21448@kimbark.uchicago.edu> from "ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu" at Aug 4, 94 11:37:38 am Organisation: RARE Address: Singel 466-468, NL-1017 AW Amsterdam Phone: +31 20 639 1131 (voice) +31 20 639 3289 (fax) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 812 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I'm wondering whether there have been any efforts directed towards > discussing the possibility of convergence among Majordomo, Unix > ListProc, LISTSERV, Smartlist, etc. towards something like a standard > core set of end-subscriber commands, and list-owner commands, with > various optional extensions possible? > Yes. I am assured that an IETF group will be set up to tackle this. There was a RARE group set up to attempt this but it has not (so far) succeeded. (There was previously an IETF group also but it did not succeed either) There already exists some Internet Drafts for other aspects of automated mail servers - you may want to look at: draft-*bombs* draft-houttuin* in the Internet Drafts directory closest to you. These papers dont tackle the command based interface though. Rgds, John From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 17:09:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA08826; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 17:09:25 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA08819; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:08:45 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA01970; Fri, 5 Aug 94 10:12:42 PDT X-Nupop-Charset: English Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 10:07:11 PDT From: "Floyd Maxwell" Reply-To: fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca Message-Id: <36441.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I suspect that properly dealing with digests adds a fair amount >of 'interesting' complexity to the design of a mailing list >manager, especially if you want to treat digest/no digest as a >subscription option instead of, essentially, a sepperate list. >In the face of this, and given that powerful mail filtering tools >exist for the most commonly used Internet systems (ie, Unix boxes), >it doesn't surprise me at all that some authors have opted to skip >the whole thing. I agree. But, IMHO, all that this says is that the present situation can be explained. It doesn't really justify any future directions and it (still) appears to me that Digests are one of the ways "we" (both the hosts and users) will be handling the rapidly increasing loads of the future. Consider news. First, we had town criers updating us whenever *they* felt like it. Next came newspapers and in the early days, it was not uncommon to have "Extra" editions rushed out on to the street and hawked to passerbys, often at the whim of publishers trying to make a bit more $ on another edition. Today, Extras are all but non-existent -- people simply don't have time for them. Similarly, continuous "new" eMails are fun and exciting for the first few thousand but after that, for most of us, they must conform to how we operate and not vice-a-versa. > One obvious addition of complexity is that the mailing list >manager is no longer just dealing with the list of subscribers; >now it must hook into the actual mail distribution system. Also, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sorry, I don't understand this point. >it now needs its own allotment of scratch space to build digests Whether you're talking disk space or memory, the biggest list Digest that I know of is still only about 100k so this should be a relative non-issue even if it needs 10 times that. >in, and some periodic invocation of a housekeeping program (unless >you send digests strictly when N bytes has piled up). Sure this will be needed, but is it significant? The computer world is full of housekeeping programs -- daemons, TSRs, messages, events. Arguably that is all the computer world is - periodic operations. And, Digests cause the list program to work less hard at sending out messages during the day, thus allowing more time for "housekeeping". > Given what I want out of a mailing list manager that I use, if >I was writing one I wouldn't put the feature in. I personally don't like ice cubes but they're still useful at a party so I guess that's why most fridges have the ability to make 'em... Programs, like fridges, are not supposed to be designed only for their owners. But they usually start out that way and frequently remain that way unless/until someone or something causes them to change. Personally, I prefer "Kaizen" to forced change. > All of this is biased by sitting on a Unix machine with a powerful >mail filtering program (procmail) and a good, fast mail reader that >deals well with high volume (MH). My sympathies go out to people >in more restricted environments. I think this is the real crux of the problem. > - cks Thanks for your comments. Floyd. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 11:19:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA08966; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 17:22:29 GMT Received: from alcor.concordia.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA08960; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 10:22:13 -0700 Received: from localhost (anne@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alcor.concordia.ca (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA01607 for ; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 13:26:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199408051726.NAA01607@alcor.concordia.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: alcor.concordia.ca: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Standards/convergence for list server software? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 05 Aug 94 19:09:58 +0200 Date: Fri, 05 Aug 94 13:26:09 EDT From: Anne Bennett Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I'm wondering whether there have been any efforts directed towards >> discussing the possibility of convergence among [mailing list >> software] > Yes. I am assured that an IETF group will be set up to > tackle this. [...] There already exists some Internet Drafts for > other aspects of automated mail servers - you may want to look at: > > draft-*bombs* > draft-houttuin* Those drafts were on the agenda of the new IETF working group "mailext" at the IETF meeting in Toronto two weeks ago. To subscribe to their mailing list "mailext@cs.wisc.edu", send mail to "listserv@cs.wisc.edu" with the command "subscribe mailext Your Full Name" in the body of the message. Anne. (Administrator for Concordia mail relay, news transfer, and DNS) Ms. Anne Bennett, Computing Services, Concordia University, Montreal H3G 1M8 anne@alcor.concordia.ca (514) 848-7606 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 19:14:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA09793; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 19:14:38 GMT Received: from c3i.saic.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA09787; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:14:30 -0700 Received: from swan.c3i.saic.com by c3i.saic.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07271; Fri, 5 Aug 94 15:19:06 EDT Date: Fri, 5 Aug 94 15:19:06 EDT From: sdelcore@c3i.saic.com (Scott M. Delcore) Message-Id: <9408051919.AA07271@c3i.saic.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: help Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk help From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 14:16:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id UAA10325; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 20:19:47 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id NAA10310; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 13:19:08 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24080>; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 16:22:58 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-reply-to: fmaxwell's message of Fri, 05 Aug 1994 13:07:11 -0400. <36441.fmaxwell@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 16:22:54 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Aug5.162258edt.24080@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [some of this is a long digression, to which my weak excuse is 'he asked'; I've put it all at the end.] | > One obvious addition of complexity is that the mailing list | >manager is no longer just dealing with the list of subscribers; | >now it must hook into the actual mail distribution system. Also, | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Sorry, I don't understand this point. Mailing list managers have two potential things they can do: they can manage the list of subscribers, and they can manage how the actual mail is distributed to the subscribers. The former is usually quite easy (and generally very portable); the latter is usually very complicated (and not portable). | >it now needs its own allotment of scratch space to build digests | >in, and some periodic invocation of a housekeeping program (unless | >you send digests strictly when N bytes has piled up). | Sure this will be needed, but is it significant? Both of these are little things, but little things add up, and can add up in a hurry. Both of these things also require installation-time work and decisions, and in turn make it more difficult to write a portable, easy to install, easy to operate system. | [...] But, IMHO, all that this says is that the present situation can | be explained. It doesn't really justify any future directions and it | (still) appears to me that Digests are one of the ways "we" (both the | hosts and users) will be handling the rapidly increasing loads of the | future. This is a philosophical question; everyone prefers different answers. My personal opinion is that digests are a costly mistake; they complicate almost everyone's life greatly for relatively small gains. The way to deal with mail volume is not to try and consume it in large gulps, but to filter, sort, organize, and skim it; to adopt the tools and approaches of Usenet, in other words. List management software can help this by making sure it's very easy to recognize messages as being from their particular list, and very easy to subscribe with certain forms of addresses that pre-filter automatically (MMDF's 'user=foo', the Andrew Messaging System's 'user+foo', for example). I don't read digests personally; if I subscribe to a mailing list with only a digest form, the first thing I do is arrange to automatically burst it apart. Only then can I filter out subjects I don't want and easily read subjects I do want. I think digests are only really useful when the person who makes them puts in a significant amount of work filtering and organizing them; and examples of those are few and far between. | Programs, like fridges, are not supposed to be designed only for | their owners. But they usually start out that way and frequently | remain that way unless/until someone or something causes them to | change. The motivation for fridges to change is the same motivation for programs to change: money. I don't see a big rush of people wanting to pay for the mailing lists they run or the mailing lists they subscribe to. - cks From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 6 01:45:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA13552; Sat, 6 Aug 1994 01:45:21 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA13540; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 18:45:07 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA24992; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 21:48:51 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18628; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 21:48:48 -0400 Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 21:48:48 -0400 (EDT) From: bill f banks Subject: Re: The freedom of speech To: Chris Siebenmann Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <94Aug5.162258edt.24080@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If some users want to put ads on our lists or said something that we don''t like (i.e. O.J. IS A GOOD GUY <===BULLSHIIT), as list manager we must accept what poeple say. I was on a llist name market-l and the owner suck From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 5 19:18:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA13411; Sat, 6 Aug 1994 01:31:37 GMT Received: from tango.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA06689; Fri, 5 Aug 1994 05:08:14 -0700 Received: from hustle.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23566 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 5 Aug 1994 05:12:19 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA03908 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 5 Aug 1994 05:12:17 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA11651 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Fri, 5 Aug 1994 05:12:16 -0700 Message-Id: <199408051212.AA11651@bolero.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option -- long (and hot in places) In-Reply-To: <9408050840.AA18578@tristan.fct.unl.pt> Date: Fri, 05 Aug 94 05:12:16 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk px@fct.unl.pt (Joaquim Baptista [pxQuim]) wrote: > Even better than this, a digest has space for "administrative info" like > how to subscribe/unsubscribe (see the majordomo-based > FireWalls-Digest@greatcircle.com for an example), which helps to avoid the > problem altogether. Nah, it only helps a little bit. I have one and I still get errant unsubscribe messages. Actually, what I think is funny is that sometimes my non-digest members send me helpful hints like "maybe you should put instructions on how to get off the list at the top of each digest and that way we could avoid these messages from at least the digest readers". Then I get to tell them that I *already* do that. Of course, there's also this one person who keeps complaining to me about having to scroll past that "long adminstrivia section" in every digest. Sheesh. It's only 10 lines out of a digest that routinely tops 50Kb in length. (last digest was 1200 lines). BTW, when I first set up this list I knew nothing about mailing list managers and figuring out how to put out a digest version was a bitch and a half. I did it out of the kindness of my heart. I think that if anyone had suggested to me that I was in any way duty-bound to supply a digest version I would have bumped them off the list permanently. Luckily all I got were "could you, would you, pretty please, with a cherry on top? I'll be your friend forever". They got their digest. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Reading: Physicist's Guide to Skepticism/M. Rothman; Liar's Poker/M. Lewis; Assembling California/J. McPhee; Things That Make Us Smart/D. Norman; Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test/Wolfe From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 7 00:01:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id AAA21255; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 00:01:19 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.roche.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA21249; Sat, 6 Aug 1994 17:01:13 -0700 From: heinisd@rocbi.DNET.roche.com Received: by gatekeeper.roche.com (5.65/fma-120691); id AA05341; Sat, 6 Aug 94 20:05:21 -0400 Received: by mailgate.roche.com (5.65/fma-120691); id AA04344; Sat, 6 Aug 94 20:04:27 -0400 Message-Id: <9408070004.AA04344@mailgate.roche.com> Received: from rocbi.enet; by inet.enet; Sat, 6 Aug 94 20:05:20 EDT Date: Sat, 6 Aug 94 20:05:20 EDT To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Apparently-To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: subsription Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subsrcibe From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 7 18:35:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA25336; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 18:35:47 GMT Received: from netcom13.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA25330; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 11:35:39 -0700 Received: by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.8.1/Netcom) id LAA28359; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 11:39:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 11:39:25 -0700 From: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras) Message-Id: <199408071839.LAA28359@netcom13.netcom.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Proper credit of items copied from a list Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like advice from others about ways to handle this situation. The federally funded National Empowerment Center maintains a gopher (gopher.std.com, then select 17, 13). It will be unveiled and demonstrated at an annual national conference, Alternatives '94, in Anaheim, CA on Thursday, August 11. I discovered this past Friday that 8 of the 10 available items on the gopher were copied from the list that I own, ThisIsCrazy-L (managed by listserv@netcom.com). (I have no problem with the copying; this is reference material, essays, quotations.) But no credit has been given to the list. And the accompanying ftp site (ftp gopher.std.com) is a warehouse of materials that were first posted to ThisIsCrazy. The credit line makes it appear as if the material were input especially for the gopher, and that the people who submitted are part of the gopher development. This is not true; quite the contrary. Since I input most of the material for ThisIsCrazy, my name is all over the gopher. I want the credit to go to ThisIsCrazy, to develop subscribers and credibility for the list, not for the National Empowerment Center. (Actually ThisIsCrazy began because the NEC wouldn't use their grant money for Internet resources; the gopher creation is a reaction to ThisIsCrazy's existence; yes, some of this is political within the civil rights movement of people who experience mood swings, fear, voices and visions; I'm upset that my initiative and energy is being used where it hasn't been earned.) This is how the credit line looks: submitted by: Sylvia Caras Mood Matters, Santa Cruz, CA July 26, 1994 But the material was not "submitted;" it was copied. This is an example of how it could look: Lastname, Firstname. (year, month day). Subject. This Is Crazy Discussion List (Online). Available e-mail: ThisIsCrazy-L@netcom.com (The citation form is taken from Xia Li and Nancy B Crane, _Electronic Style: A Guide to Citing Electronic Information_, Meckler, 1993, p 49.) I've already e mailed and telephoned NEC, and received no reply. What actions should I take? Should I be calm and gracious or furious and litigious? What can I accomplish by Wednesday (when I'm leaving for the conference myself)? Thanks. From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 7 18:53:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA25371; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 18:53:14 GMT Received: from yukon.cren.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA25365; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 11:52:58 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with SMTP id <80153(6)>; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 14:56:47 -0400 To: Dave Sill cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Aug 1994 14:29:04 EDT." <199408031829.OAA16011@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 14:56:44 -0400 From: Marco Hernandez Message-Id: <94Aug7.145647edt.80153(6)@yukon.cren.org> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Not all lists are run by a server that supports digests. Some aren't > run by a server at all. > With some servers, digest can be turned off/on at the discretion of the list maintainer. The maintainer might not want digests for whatever reason even if the listproc/listserv/majordomo ... support this function. Marco From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 7 21:38:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id VAA25959; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 21:38:33 GMT Received: from panix.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA25953; Sun, 7 Aug 1994 14:38:17 -0700 Received: by panix.com id AA24808 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 7 Aug 1994 17:42:17 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Aug 1994 17:42:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield Subject: Re: Proper credit of items copied from a list To: Sylvia Caras Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199408071839.LAA28359@netcom13.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I suggest that any origna material appear with a copyright notice (c) Sylvia Caras 1994 (or whatever the date or name you choose). You can then indicate that the user may have royalty free use provided the copyright notice is included with the publication or distribution of the document. I also suggest you consult a copyright attorney, which I am not. The procedure I suggested is one I follow on theadvice of an attorney. Oliver Garfield On Sun, 7 Aug 1994, Sylvia Caras wrote: > I'd like advice from others about ways to handle this situation. > > The federally funded National Empowerment Center maintains a gopher > (gopher.std.com, then select 17, 13). It will be unveiled and > demonstrated at an annual national conference, Alternatives '94, in > Anaheim, CA on Thursday, August 11. > > I discovered this past Friday that 8 of the 10 available items on the > gopher were copied from the list that I own, ThisIsCrazy-L (managed by > listserv@netcom.com). (I have no problem with the copying; this is > reference material, essays, quotations.) But no credit has been given to > the list. And the accompanying ftp site (ftp gopher.std.com) is a > warehouse of materials that were first posted to ThisIsCrazy. > > The credit line makes it appear as if the material were input especially for > the gopher, and that the people who submitted are part of the gopher > development. This is not true; quite the contrary. Since I input most of > the material for ThisIsCrazy, my name is all over the gopher. I want the > credit to go to ThisIsCrazy, to develop subscribers and credibility for the > list, not for the National Empowerment Center. (Actually ThisIsCrazy > began because the NEC wouldn't use their grant money for Internet > resources; the gopher creation is a reaction to ThisIsCrazy's existence; > yes, some of this is political within the civil rights movement of people > who experience mood swings, fear, voices and visions; I'm upset that > my initiative and energy is being used where it hasn't been earned.) > > This is how the credit line looks: > > > submitted by: > > Sylvia Caras > Mood Matters, Santa Cruz, CA > July 26, 1994 > > > > But the material was not "submitted;" it was copied. > > This is an example of how it could look: > > > Lastname, Firstname. (year, month day). Subject. > This Is Crazy Discussion List (Online). Available e-mail: > ThisIsCrazy-L@netcom.com > > > > (The citation form is taken from Xia Li and Nancy B > Crane, _Electronic Style: A Guide to Citing Electronic > Information_, Meckler, 1993, p 49.) > > > > I've already e mailed and telephoned NEC, and received no reply. What > actions should I take? Should I be calm and gracious or furious and > litigious? What can I accomplish by Wednesday (when I'm leaving for > the conference myself)? > > Thanks. > From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 8 15:54:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id PAA05676; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 15:54:49 GMT Received: from stl-17sima by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id IAA05670; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 08:54:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199408081554.IAA05670@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 94 10:57:01 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think the point is being totally overlooked that, for a subscriber, the *only* point to a Digest is if a human moderator is doing the digestifying. That way, you can get a Digest with all common topics; an excellent example of this is the long-standing SF-Lovers Digest, one of the original Digests and one of the reasons for inventing Digests in the first place. It is of no use to me to receive a digestified message if the only purpose was to include all incoming mail up to some arbitrary byte-size cutoff; I just have to undigestify them, sort them by date & subject, delete the ones I don't want to bother with (by sender and/or subject line), and _then_ finally read them. If the Digest contains all related topics, then I can peek at the index listing at the top and either delete the whole thing, or go ahead and read it _as a digest_. It may be of some use to the mail-sending and/or mail-receiving hosts to send a single digest rather than a flood of smaller messages, but it's not really of any use to 99 out of 100 readers (you'd have to be using an editor or browser to read your mail, instead of any kind of "real" mail user interface, and even then I think individual messages would be easier to handle). If you're downloading mail down a dialup connection to your PC, does it really take any longer to download individual messages then a digest? A digest should take longer because it is larger...but there may be handshaking overhead in determining the list of files to download, too, I guess. As far as _when_ you download them, that's up to the user and it wouldn't matter on a practical basis if you received individual messages or one big one - you still download your mail [n] times a day...you're not event-driven by any need to download incoming mail "just because it's there". Essentially, you're doing your own digestifying, just by downloading messages in a batch (although you get mail from more than one list...). -Rich From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 8 18:02:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA06996; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 18:02:26 GMT Received: from stl-17sima by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA06988; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 11:01:48 -0700 Message-Id: <199408081801.LAA06988@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 94 13:03:53 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: Mitch Collinsworth cc: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You're right - I forgot that at least one of the commercial services charges per message and not per kilobyte-per-message or some other actual usage-sensitive structure. I'm waiting for someone to offer these users a free re-mailing service that will digestify multiple messages (including Digests) and remail them in max-allowable-size chunks to them - it probably won't be long in coming...and when it does, it will probably lead to a change in the Compu$erve rate structure. Cheers, Rich From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 8 11:24:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA06486; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 17:14:58 GMT Received: from skigo.graphics.cornell.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA06478; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 10:14:48 -0700 Received: by skigo.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA04200; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 13:18:47 -0400 Message-Id: <9408081718.AA04200@skigo.graphics.cornell.edu> To: Rich Zellich Cc: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Lack of DIGEST option on some list-servers :-( In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 08 Aug 94 10:57:01 CDT." <199408081554.IAA05670@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.4.1 7/21/94 Date: Mon, 08 Aug 94 13:18:46 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I think the point is being totally overlooked that, for a subscriber, >the *only* point to a Digest is if a human moderator is doing the >digestifying. [...] > >It is of no use to me to receive a digestified message if the only purpose ^^^^^!! >was to include all incoming mail up to some arbitrary byte-size cutoff; [...] Just what we need on the internet, more people who think their personal view is the *only* view. I added the digest option to my biggest list when my compuserve subscribers explained compuserve's rate structure for e-mail to me. Regardless of all your well thought out reasons for not sending unmoderated digests, these subscribers have made a big point of thanking me for adding the digest option (and all I did was install it. Brent wrote the code. Thanks, Brent!). These people reported their compuserve bills dropped an order of magnitude immediately when they switched to digest format. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 8 19:55:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA08107; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 19:55:36 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA08101; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 12:55:23 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24083>; Mon, 8 Aug 1994 15:59:17 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: bill f banks Subject: Re: The freedom of speech In-reply-to: bfb's message of Fri, 05 Aug 1994 21:48:48 -0400. Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 15:59:12 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Aug8.155917edt.24083@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [I'm not certain why this appeared, but I'll reply to it anyways.] | If some users want to put ads on our lists or said something that we | don''t like (i.e. O.J. IS A GOOD GUY <===BULLSHIIT), as list manager | we must accept what poeple say. I disagree categorically, and swipe a quote from somewhere to explain why: 'freedom of the press belongs to those who own one'. Further elaboration of this point can no doubt be found in the list-managers archives. - cks From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 12 19:12:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA22370; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 19:12:52 GMT Received: from who.net.uokhsc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA22364; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 12:12:42 -0700 Received: from MSSMTP.NET.UOKHSC.EDU by who.net.uokhsc.edu (5.64/A/UX-3.00) id AA23114; Fri, 12 Aug 94 14:18:24 PDT Received: by MSSMTP.NET.uokhsc.edu with Microsoft Mail id <2E4BE59B@MSSMTP.NET.uokhsc.edu>; Fri, 12 Aug 94 14:11:55 PDT From: Brian Fairless To: "'list-managers'" Subject: Listing Problem Date: Fri, 12 Aug 94 14:18:00 PDT Message-Id: <2E4BE59B@MSSMTP.NET.uokhsc.edu> Encoding: 33 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know that this is probably a FAQ, but I will risk being flamed. I have set up Majordomo at my site and for the most part everything seems to work correctly except for the lists, and which commands. they both come back with nothing to report for example. -- >>>> lists lists@who.uokhsc.edu serves the following lists: Use the 'info ' command to get more information about a specific list. I don't know what to do every other command seems to work. I have looked at the config scripts for each individual list and I have even put in regular expressions in the advertise section, but nothing seems to work. HELP !!!!! please. by the way I am running majordomo 1.92 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Brian Fairless Senior Network Analyst University Of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center 1100 North Lindsay rm 102 Oklahoma City, OK. 73190 Voice (405)271-1905 Fax (405)271-3627 brian-fairless@uokhsc.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 12 19:26:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA22452; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 19:26:14 GMT Received: from emoryu1.cc.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA22446; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 12:26:06 -0700 Received: from ping.ping.com by emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_cc.4.0.1) via SMTP id AA16318 ; Fri, 12 Aug 94 15:01:10 -0400 Received: from [166.78.18.61] (samcap.ping.com) by ping.ping.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA06233; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 15:00:22 +0500 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 15:00:21 +0500 Message-Id: <9408121900.AA06233@ping.ping.com> From: "Sam Caplan" Reply-To: "Sam Caplan" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: how-to Content-Length: 455 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry about flooding everyone's mailboxes with this (i'm sure) very generic question... (why do Ifeel like an AOL user???). Here goes: I am interested in starting a mailing list but do not know the proper procedure on how to do it. If anyone could send me a document or Net adress where I could find the info, I would be most appreciative. Thanks in advance! Sam Caplan - samcap@ping.com ---------------------------- "Support Community Radio!!!" From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 12 21:00:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id VAA23002; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 21:00:43 GMT Received: from netcom17.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA22996; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 14:00:33 -0700 Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.8.1/Netcom) id OAA26702; Fri, 12 Aug 1994 14:04:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 14:04:57 -0700 From: mcb@netcom.com (Michael C. Berch) Message-Id: <199408122104.OAA26702@netcom17.netcom.com> To: brian@MSSMTP.NET.uokhsc.edu Subject: Re: Listing Problem Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Fairless writes: > I know that this is probably a FAQ, but I will risk being flamed. Not a flame, but I would suggest that Majordomo-specific questions be directed to one of the Majordomo mailing lists hosted at greatcircle.com. This question would be most appropriate for the majordomo-users list. For information, send a message to majordomo-users-request@greatcircle.com, or to subscribe, send the message subscribe majordomo-users to (of course!) majordomo@greatcircle.com. Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch List-Managers list manager mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@netcom.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 13 11:08:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA26296; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:08:44 GMT Received: from SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id EAA26290; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 04:08:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199408131108.EAA26290@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 07:13 EST From: STEVENCA@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (Carol Ann Stevens) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: STEVENCA@SNYBUFVA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: Assistance requested Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been trying to request a list of LISTSERV commands in order to take care of some list maintainance. I have so far been entirely unsuccessful in receiving response to my requests (e.g., 'help ?' or 'review'). Any help at this point would be greatly appreciated. TIA C. Stevens stevenca@snybufva.cs.snybuf.edu From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 13 17:12:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA27382; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 17:12:39 GMT Received: from papaya.ummed.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA27376; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 10:12:32 -0700 Received: (from naleks@localhost) by papaya.ummed.edu with id LAA24501; Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:42:08 -0400 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 1994 11:42:08 +0100 From: Norm Aleks Reply-To: Norm Aleks Subject: Re: Assistance requested To: Carol Ann Stevens cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199408131108.EAA26290@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 13 Aug 1994, Carol Ann Stevens wrote: > I have been trying to request a list of LISTSERV commands in order to take care > of some list maintainance. I have so far been entirely unsuccessful in > receiving response to my requests (e.g., 'help ?' or 'review'). Any help at > this point would be greatly appreciated. TIA Do you mean the real LISTSERV (i.e. "Revised LISTSERV", mostly on BITNET VM machines)? If so, send mail to any LISTSERV with a message body of "help" or "info topics". You should get back *something*. If you don't know the address of the server, but you do know the name of the list, you can send your message to -server@listserv.net (no brackets of course, and use the actual list name). If you mean *this* system, where list-managers is kept, you need to write to majordomo@greatcircle.com with a message body of "help" ... but I'm sure you know that :-) Norm -- Norm Aleks - naleks@papaya.ummed.edu - UMASS Medical Center, Worcester, Mass. "For a generation, the most important gay march has been a long line of men and women coming out, one at a time." --Ellen Goodman From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 14 18:15:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA04299; Sun, 14 Aug 1994 18:15:31 GMT Received: from unixg.ubc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA04293; Sun, 14 Aug 1994 11:15:22 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA16738; Sun, 14 Aug 94 11:19:47 PDT Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 11:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Richard Porter Subject: mail headers and mis-routing To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, toor@csf.colorado.edu, postmaster@csf.colorado.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Will and others, I don't know about you, Will, but I am getting an inordinate amount of messages misrouted to me. Could you *personally* speak with your postmaster or operation systems person, and see if listproc is organizing the mail headers properly? I have recently spoken with the postmaster here at UBC about this, and it is a growing problem. But today alone, I have received three "seervice messages" for different postings to ecol-econ. If it isn't picked up quickly, it may loop repeatedly through the list; and that is a serious problem. regards, richard m porter forest economics and policy analysis university of british columbia ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 11:51:11 -0600 From: (Sender of message unknown) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Service Message --Boundary (ID ayGO/iL++sf6ZPbMzOP7lw) Content-type: TEXT/REPORT Report on your message to: /R=WILLIAMS.EDU/U=TECHSPIRIT-L/@FIRNVX.FIRN.EDU Reason: Unable to transfer; message formatting problem (1) Diagnostic: Unrecognized recipient name (0) Arrival-date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 13:44:52 EST --Boundary (ID ayGO/iL++sf6ZPbMzOP7lw) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 12:39:49 EST From: Will Toor Subject: Re: ecol econ and new economic para (fwd) Sender: "ecol-econ@csf.colorado.edu" To: Multiple recipients of list Reply-to: "ecol-econ@csf.colorado.edu" Message-id: Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN X400-MTS-identifier: [;94443141804991/1865480@FIRNVX] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:03:28 -0700 From: Robert Rex To: toor@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: ecol econ and new economic para Topic 512 BMCFARLING Aug 11, 1994 (at pstcc.cc.tn.us) Subject: Re: ecol econ and new economic paradigms Bruce McFarling writes: > One strand of neo-Schumpeterian theory explores information > aquisition in cases where information as to what to do next > is gained in the course of what you are doing now. and later on: > A new paradigm takes over by winning over a large number of > the students, not by winning over a large number of their > teachers. I have been following this conference or forum for a few weeks now. While there is a wealth of theoretical information (which is quite fascinating to me), I have found little which I can use practically in my own community economic development work. Until this recent posting... I agree entirely with Mr McFarling's comments (those above and in his original posting). There are quite a number of "alter- native" economic schemes operating around the world and in the US. One idea which I am particularly fond of is called a LETSystem (Local Employment & Trading System). This is a local currency system (barter network among individuals and businesses within a community) which allows sustainable economic activity to con- tinue even when actual cash appears short. There are a number of conferences on the igc network about LETS (eg, lets.canada; lets.oz; lets.uk; lcs.letsoft just for starters). Perhaps it would be good to discuss these kinds of "alternative" economic schemes alongside the theory of ecological economics. These systems and ideas do work as has been proven in 300-400 communities around the world. For more information, please e-mail: chameleon@igc.apc.org Thanks for your attention, Sincerely, Robert Rex (chameleon@igc.apc.org) --Boundary (ID ayGO/iL++sf6ZPbMzOP7lw)-- From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 15 04:10:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA03420; Mon, 15 Aug 1994 10:20:46 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id DAA03414; Mon, 15 Aug 1994 03:20:26 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA07233; Mon, 15 Aug 94 12:23:30 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA12520; Mon, 15 Aug 94 12:23:12 +0200 Message-Id: <9408151023.AA12520@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 12:23:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Sam Caplan"'s message as of 1994 Aug 12 Fri 15:00. <9408121900.AA06233@ping.ping.com> To: "Sam Caplan" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: how-to Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >question... (why do Ifeel like an AOL user???). Here goes: I am interested in >starting a mailing list but do not know the proper procedure on how to do it. You might be looking for something like "SmartList". Here is the README and FEATURES list of the package: The SmartList mailinglist management package. (v3.05 1994/08/04) The SmartList mailinglist package has been built on top of the procmail mail processing package. In order to install it you'll need the source of the procmail package as well. If you now have just the SmartList sources, get the procmail sources and unpack them on top of the SmartList source tree. ---------------------- A recent version of both packages can be picked up at various comp.sources.misc archives. The latest versions can be obtained directly from the ftp-archive at: ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de as (g)zipped tar files: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.gz /pub/packages/procmail/SmartList.tar.gz as compressed tar files: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.Z /pub/packages/procmail/SmartList.tar.Z ---------------------- Summary of what SmartList provides: + The overseeable management of an arbitrary number of mailinglists + Convenient and simple creation of new mailinglists + Convenient and simple removal of existing mailinglists + Fully automated subscription/unsubscription/help-request processing (no operator intervention needed) + Enough intelligence to overcome the ignorance of some subscribers (will direct subscribe and unsubscribe requests away from the regular list and automatically onto the -request address) + No hardwired format for (un)subscribe requests (i.e. new subscribers need not be educated, unsubscribing users do not need to remember any particular syntax) + *Intelligent* autoremoval of addresses from the list that cause too many bounces + Submissions can be limited to people on the accept list (which could be the current list of subscribers) + The fully automated subscription mechanism allows for a reject list of unwanted subscribers and a general address screening mechanism which allows you to control exactly who is allowed to subscribe + Optional implicit subscription upon first submission to the list + MIME-compliant auto-digest-generation (configurable per list) + Joint management of several mailinglists possible + Customisation per mailinglist or mailinglist group possible (simply remove or create the desired hardlinks) + A listmaintainer can be assigned per list; miscellaneous requests that couldn't be handled by the list automatically are then forwarded to his mail address (instead of being accumulated in a file) + Allows for remote maintenance of any mailinglist by a listmaintainer + Integrated archiving service + Integrated diagnostic aid to give hints to the maintainer about possible problems + Moderated mailinglists with an arbitrary number of moderators + Automatically eliminates duplicate submissions + You can set up a mailinglist to function as a standalone mail archive server + Extended MIME support (autorecognition of well known file formats) + The archive server can send arbitrarily long (even binary) files in MIME-multipart mails ---------------------- -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Be spontaneous!" From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 15 22:41:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id WAA08757; Mon, 15 Aug 1994 22:41:34 GMT Received: from av41.esan.edu.pe by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id PAA08751; Mon, 15 Aug 1994 15:41:24 -0700 Received: from caronte.esan.edu.pe by av41.esan.edu.pe (5.4.1/140.2) id AA02275; Mon, 15 Aug 1994 17:45:42 -0500 Received: From ESAN02/WORKQUEUE by caronte.esan.edu.pe via Charon 3.4 with IPX id 100.940815174745.480; 15 Aug 94 17:48:51 +50000 Message-Id: From: "Martin Naranjo" Organization: ESAN To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 17:47:44 GMT-0500 Subject: HELP: Access UNIX --> NOVELL (NFS?) X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Networkers: I hope there is somebody who could give me some help. I would appreciate very much any information you can give me about any software which allow Unix users to access to a directory in a Novell server. I suppose that it must be some kind of NLM or so. I don't care too much about whether it is commercial or shareware software. Thanks in advance, Martin Naranjo mnaranjo@lan1.esan.edu.pe PS. Please write directly to my email address. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 16 12:12:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA13827; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 12:12:15 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA13818; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 05:12:05 -0700 Received: from kepler.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 16 Aug 94 05:15:00 PDT Date: Tue, 16 Aug 94 05:15:00 PDT Message-Id: <9408161215.AA11245@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Received: by kepler.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10567; Tue, 16 Aug 94 05:14:33 PDT From: Kimball Collins To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Subject: smartlist and procmail Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. X-Attribution: kpc Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just downloaded smartlist, and it looks fabulous. Very well documented. Lots of attention to detail. Easy to make. Good defaults. Any comments on it from satisfied or dissatisfied users? Can a person reliably trust the .forward method not to, for example, lose mail or invite pranks? (It looks very well designed but I'd like comments.) Any comments on procmail? (I am interested in its floating point scoring capabilities, and would be interested in comments from people who have tried it.) (I have also looked at majordomo, listproc, and distribute; and I have investigated several other packages.) -- kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov. AI, multidisciplinary neuroethology, info filtering. The FDA attacks tryptophan, melatonin, etc. to increase their and MDs' monopoly on permission to buy medicine. This is power; power corrupts. Health matters. 1speech 2arms 3quarter 4search 5process 6jury 7jury 8excessive 9people 10people From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 16 12:33:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA14085; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 12:33:10 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA14079; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 05:33:01 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA14278; Tue, 16 Aug 94 14:35:31 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA15608; Tue, 16 Aug 94 14:35:12 +0200 Message-Id: <9408161235.AA15608@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 14:35:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kimball Collins's message as of 1994 Aug 16 Tue 5:15. <9408161215.AA11245@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: smartlist and procmail Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kimball Collins wrote: > Can a person >reliably trust the .forward method not to, for example, lose mail or >invite pranks? The .forward method does not lose mail (in fact, in my case, it often saved mail that would have been lost otherwise, due to a full mail spool). But, that's beside the point. SmartList does not use the .forward method, it uses a program started from within the /usr/lib/aliases file (which is similar to the .forward method, yes). As for the reliability of that, well, all other listmanagers (e.g. majordomo, distribute, except for listproc?) use the same method of invocation. >Any comments on procmail? (I am interested in its floating point >scoring capabilities, and would be interested in comments from people >who have tried it.) You'd better ask this on the procmail list (procmail-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de to (un)subscribe). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). He did a quarter of the work in *half* the time! From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 16 21:00:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id VAA18006; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 21:00:54 GMT Received: from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA18000; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 14:00:42 -0700 Received: from VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU by vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6269; Tue, 16 Aug 94 16:05:24 CDT Received: from ILSTU (NJE origin SYSMWTR@ILSTU) by VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3874; Tue, 16 Aug 1994 16:05:24 -0500 FROM: "MIKE TOMLIANOVICH" SUBJECT: info needed DATE: 16 AUG 1994 16:07 -00 MESSAGE-ID: <386973 > TO: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It appears the location I used to get the "list of lists" from no longer exists. Where can I FTP this from? Thanks. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 19 19:22:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA13104; Fri, 19 Aug 1994 19:22:37 GMT Received: from uu10.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA13096; Fri, 19 Aug 1994 12:22:22 -0700 Received: by uu10.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA26921 for ; Fri, 19 Aug 94 15:17:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 19 Aug 94 11:33:18 PDT From: john@vcc.com (John Schewel) Received: by vcc.com (4.1/3.2.083191-Virtual Computer Corporation) id AA13805; Fri, 19 Aug 94 11:33:18 PDT Message-Id: <9408191833.AA13805@vcc.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Batchmailing w/ fastmail Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Need some guidance..... I have a list of address to which I want to send an information release. How can fastmail be used to automatically read the list (from a file created with the addresses) and batch send without having to write individual address lines or cc. ...... thanks in advance... john From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 01:20:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id BAA24280; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 01:20:16 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA24272; Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:20:05 -0700 Received: from zog.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id for List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com; Thu, 25 Aug 94 18:23:04 PDT Date: Thu, 25 Aug 94 18:23:04 PDT Message-Id: <9408260123.AA17930@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Received: by zog.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06998; Thu, 25 Aug 94 18:23:04 PDT From: k p c To: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Subject: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. X-Attribution: kpc Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Frequently I get bounces that are difficult to track down. Sometimes this takes the form of there being no match between the addresses described as bad in the bounce and addresses on the list. Sometimes this is caused by .forward files or system level aliases gone bad. Why can't they send back bounces saying what address was sent to, rather than what address was attempted to be forwarded to? Sometimes it is caused by addresses actually having been rewritten. Warning! Some mail transport software seems to think that mail headers are not sacrosanct! Why aren't they? This takes two forms. The most notorious is that the UK sometimes uses uk.domaincomponent.domaincomponent.site. Why did they do this? And how does one send email to a machine named uk? It seems to be getting better. Worse, it seems as if some headers are rewritten arbitrarily. For example, userid@staffordshire.ac.uk seems to get rewritten, unknown to the sender or the mailing list error receiver, to userid@staffs.ac.uk. Cambridge seems to do something similar. Why? Note: it is remotely possible that this is actually just the .forward problem in a different guise, but I doubt it, since my correspondents haven't given me that impression. How come? And is there hope that the new hordes on the net, armed with PC software that used to only know how to communicate with its own kind, will not wreak havoc unknowingly when their software does similar types of things? Is their software doing this kind of thing? (My list attracts mostly non-PC sites, thankfully.) -- kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov. AI, multidisciplinary neuroethology, info filtering. The FDA attacks tryptophan, melatonin, etc. to increase their and MDs' monopoly on permission to buy medicine. This is power; power corrupts. Health matters. 1speech 2arms 3quarter 4search 5process 6jury 7jury 8excessive 9people 10people From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 03:14:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id DAA25046; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 03:14:27 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id UAA25038; Thu, 25 Aug 1994 20:14:17 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id XAA05637; Thu, 25 Aug 1994 23:18:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199408260318.XAA05637@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: kpc@ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov cc: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:23:04 PDT." <9408260123.AA17930@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 23:18:20 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Frequently I get bounces that are difficult to track down. Sometimes > this takes the form of there being no match between the addresses > described as bad in the bounce and addresses on the list. yep. > Sometimes this is caused by .forward files or system level aliases > gone bad. Why can't they send back bounces saying what address was > sent to, rather than what address was attempted to be forwarded to? Because at that point, the original address is no longer available. (a proposal is in the works to remedy this) > Sometimes it is caused by addresses actually having been rewritten. > Warning! Some mail transport software seems to think that mail > headers are not sacrosanct! Why aren't they? Actually, they are. But sometimes the mail has being gatewayed into a foreign environment that has a different mail syntax, so the addresses have to be rewritten anyway. Some mailers convert all addresses into a common format for processing, and then back again when relaying the message...only sometimes they don't quite produce the original address. Finally, some mailers are rewriting headers when they shouldn't be, on the basis of bad advice. This is especially true in the UUCP world. > This takes two forms. The most notorious is that the UK sometimes > uses uk.domaincomponent.domaincomponent.site. Why did they do this? This is an example of a foreign environment. The UK mail community grew up writing domains with the most significant part on the left, while the rest of the world does it the other way. They seem to be switching over, though. > And how does one send email to a machine named uk? translate uk.a.b.c -> c.b.a.uk > Worse, it seems as if some headers are rewritten arbitrarily. For > example, userid@staffordshire.ac.uk seems to get rewritten, unknown to > the sender or the mailing list error receiver, to userid@staffs.ac.uk. > Cambridge seems to do something similar. Why? Another aspect of their system. UK sub-domains can be abbreviated. > How come? And is there hope that the new hordes on the net, armed > with PC software that used to only know how to communicate with its > own kind, will not wreak havoc unknowingly when their software does > similar types of things? Is their software doing this kind of thing? They do and will. Count on it. There is some hope, however...for a lot of the PC lan gateway products, there are so many customers that scream very loudly when their gateway doesn't do a good job...that vendors are starting to get a clue. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 11:59:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id LAA28674; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 11:59:30 GMT Received: from ruby.ora.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id EAA28668; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 04:59:21 -0700 Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.17]) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id IAA14119 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 08:04:14 -0400 Received: by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA26189; Fri, 26 Aug 94 05:00:20 PDT From: Jerry Peek Reply-To: jerry@ora.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: kpc@ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) In-Reply-To: Message from k p c of "Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:23:04 -0700." <9408260123.AA17930@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:00:20 -0700 Message-Id: <26188.777902420@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Frequently I get bounces that are difficult to track down. Sometimes > this takes the form of there being no match between the addresses > described as bad in the bounce and addresses on the list. One really helpful trick: Save the original subscription messages in a folder somewhere. If you set one of those weird bounces, look at its Received: header fields. Then search for the hostnames in the Received: fields of the original subscription messages and try to find a match. For example, if the bounced message had: Received: from foo.bar.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id SAA24272; Thu, 25 Aug 1994 18:20:05 -0700 You could use an MH command like this: % pick --received foo.bar.com +old-subscriptions/listname to find subscription messages that were relayed through foo.bar.com. Then compare the pattern of "Received:" header fields in those messages to the pattern in the bounced message. If you see that both the bounce and the original subscription were relayed through foo.bar.com, baz.wherever.au and mycroft.greatcircle.com, you'll have a fairly good idea of who the bounce came from. It works like a charm.... *if* you've saved the original subscription messages, that is... :-/ -- Jerry Peek; O'Reilly & Associates; Sebastopol, CA 95472 USA; jerry@ora.com Info: gopher gopher.ora.com (or telnet, and login: gopher), or info@ora.com Orders: (800)998-9938, +1 707-829-0515, fax +1 707-829-0104, or order@ora.com From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 12:01:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA28723; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 12:01:08 GMT Received: from ruby.ora.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA28716; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:01:01 -0700 Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.17]) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id IAA14138 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 08:05:56 -0400 Received: by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA26205; Fri, 26 Aug 94 05:02:24 PDT From: Jerry Peek To: kpc@ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) X-Followup-To: My message of "Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:00:20 -0700." <26188.777902420@rubble.west.ora.com> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:02:22 -0700 Message-Id: <26204.777902542@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:00:20 -0700 I wrote: < One really helpful trick: Save the original subscription messages in a < folder somewhere. If you set one of those weird bounces, look at its ^^^ < Received: header fields. ... Oops; I meant "if you *get* one of those weird bounces." From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 12:13:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA28902; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 12:13:14 GMT Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA28894; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 05:13:05 -0700 Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk via Local channel id <15879-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 13:17:09 +0100 Subject: Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 13:17:06 +0100 (BST) Cc: kpc@ptolemy-ethernet.arc.nasa.gov, List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199408260318.XAA05637@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Aug 25, 94 11:18:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1570 From: Alan Thew Message-ID: <"liverbird.li:158820:940826121711"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the last mail, Keith Moore wrote: > .... > Finally, some mailers are rewriting headers when they shouldn't be, > on the basis of bad advice. This is especially true in the UUCP world. > > > This takes two forms. The most notorious is that the UK sometimes > > uses uk.domaincomponent.domaincomponent.site. Why did they do this? > > This is an example of a foreign environment. The UK mail community > grew up writing domains with the most significant part on the left, > while the rest of the world does it the other way. > They seem to be switching over, though. The UK now has a significantly large IP network. If you see headers in the order uk.ac.site then they have a broken MTA. A minor point. Most UK commercial sites have not operated in this manner since the JANET network is not commercial although some commercial (.co.uk) sites ran the same software since this was convenient... > > > And how does one send email to a machine named uk? > > translate uk.a.b.c -> c.b.a.uk > > > Worse, it seems as if some headers are rewritten arbitrarily. For > > example, userid@staffordshire.ac.uk seems to get rewritten, unknown to > > the sender or the mailing list error receiver, to userid@staffs.ac.uk. > > Cambridge seems to do something similar. Why? > > Another aspect of their system. UK sub-domains can be abbreviated. True, a bad feature. We all wish they'd disappear as well... > -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 51 794-3735 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 51 794-3759 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 26 17:31:27 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA01836; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 17:31:27 GMT Received: from wolfe.wimsey.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA01830; Fri, 26 Aug 1994 10:31:13 -0700 Received: from vsystem by wolfe.wimsey.com with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0qe5BT-0009OwC; Fri, 26 Aug 94 10:35 PDT Received: by vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 26 Aug 94 09:54:48 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (e.g. staffs.ac.uk) From: rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (Rick Vandenberg) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Aug 94 09:29:11 PDT In-Reply-To: <199408260318.XAA05637@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Organization: Vandenberg Systems Incorporated, Vancouver BC Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > > How come? And is there hope that the new hordes on the net, armed > > with PC software that used to only know how to communicate with its > > own kind, will not wreak havoc unknowingly when their software does > > similar types of things? Is their software doing this kind of thing? > > They do and will. Count on it. > > There is some hope, however...for a lot of the PC lan gateway products, > there are so many customers that scream very loudly when their gateway > doesn't do a good job...that vendors are starting to get a clue. > > Keith Moore I don't think you should lump all PC mail developers together. Granted, there is some bug-laden PC software that causes the problems described, but it's a small proportion of what's available. There are some good products, and some bad ones, on all platforms, DOS and Unix included. As an example, our product, V-M