From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 2 15:33:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA13166; Fri, 2 Sep 1994 15:33:54 GMT Received: from av41.esan.edu.pe by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id IAA13142; Fri, 2 Sep 1994 08:31:31 -0700 Received: from caronte.esan.edu.pe by av41.esan.edu.pe (5.4.1/140.2) id AA14552; Fri, 2 Sep 1994 10:35:18 -0500 Received: From ESAN02/WORKQUEUE by caronte.esan.edu.pe via Charon 3.4 with IPX id 100.940902103828.384; 02 Sep 94 10:39:17 +50000 Message-Id: From: "Martin Naranjo" Organization: ESAN To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 2 Sep 1994 10:38:27 GMT-0500 Subject: Mail log account Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (R0) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi networkers: Does any of you know of a software (commercial or shareware) from which I can get mail traffic statistics based on logfiles produced by syslogd on UNIX systems running sendmail? Would you please give me the name of the program or tell me the place or ftp server where I can get it? I would appreciate your helpful comments very much. Thanks in advance, Martin Naranjo. mnaranjo@lan1.esan.edu.pe From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 3 05:27:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id FAA20932; Sat, 3 Sep 1994 05:27:20 GMT Received: from virginia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id WAA20926; Fri, 2 Sep 1994 22:26:53 -0700 Received: from elvis.med.virginia.edu by uvaarpa.virginia.edu id aa07074; 3 Sep 94 1:31 EDT Received: by elvis.med.Virginia.EDU (5.65c/1.34) id AA20099; Sat, 3 Sep 1994 01:31:55 -0400 Newsgroups: comp.mail.mime,comp.lang.python Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 01:31:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Steven D. Majewski" X-Sender: sdm7g@elvis.med.Virginia.EDU To: pine-info@cac.washington.edu Cc: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Subject: digest -> mime multi-part digest Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-2138107840-2078917053-778568888=:24683" Content-Id: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---2138107840-2078917053-778568888=:24683 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Here's a Python script to convert digests with "\n--------" message separators into a mime Content-type: multipart/digest message. [ Python info: or ] A MIME-aware mail-reader like Pine, for example, shows the single messages as attachments: Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 01:10:05 -0700 From: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Reply to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List Managers Digest V3 #152 Parts/attachments: 1 Shown 19 lines Text 2 Shown 32 lines Text, "Re: .forward files and rewriting of headers (Jerry Peek -- UVA Department of Molecular Physiology and Biological Physics ---2138107840-2078917053-778568888=:24683 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII; NAME="digest2mime.py" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Python program to convert old digest form to mime multipart/ IyEvdXNyL2xvY2FsL2Jpbi9weXRob24NCg0KZnJvbSByZmM4MjIgaW1wb3J0 IE1lc3NhZ2UNCmltcG9ydCBzdHJpbmcNCg0KIw0KIyBVc2FnZTogZGlnZXN0 Mm1pbWUucHkgIFsgaW5wdXQtZmlsZSBbb3V0cHV0LWZpbGVdXSANCiMgCUlm IG91dHB1dCBmaWxlIGlzIG1pc3NpbmcsIHdyaXRlIHRvIHN0ZG91dA0KIyAJ SWYgb3V0cHV0ICYgaW5wdXQgbWlzc2luZzogcmVhZCBzdGRpbiAmIHdyaXRl IHN0ZG91dA0KIw0KIyBUaGlzIHByb2dyYW0gcmVhZHMgaW4gYSBzaW5nbGUg cmZjODIyIG1lc3NhZ2UgY29udGFpbmluZyBhIA0KIyBkaWdlc3QgaW4gdGhl IHNvbWV3aGF0IHN0YW5kYXJkIGZvcm0gd2hlcmUgJ1xuLS0tLS0tLS0nLiog DQojIHNlcGFyYXRlcyBtZXNzYWdlcywgYW5kIHdyaXRlcyBvdXQgYSBzaW5n bGUgcmZjODIyIA0KIyBtaW1lIG11bHRpcGFydC9tZXNzYWdlIGZpbGUgd2l0 aCBlYWNoIGRpZ2VzdCBtZXNzYWdlIA0KIyBhcyBhIHBhcnQuIA0KIw0KIyBT dWJqZWN0OiBhbmQgRnJvbTogaGVhZGVycyBhcmUgY29uY2F0ZW5hdGVkIGlu dG8gdGhlIA0KIyBDb250ZW50X0Rlc2NyaXB0aW9uOiBoZWFkZXJzLiAoIFRo aXMgc2hvdWxkIGJlIHBhcnNlZCANCiMgYW5kIHNob3J0ZW5lZCBmdXJ0aGVy IGluZm8gaXMgdmlzaWJsZSBvbiBzaG9ydCBsaW5lcy4pDQojDQoNCkNvbnRl bnRfVHlwZSA9ICJDb250ZW50LVR5cGU6IG11bHRpcGFydC9kaWdlc3Q7IGJv dW5kYXJ5PSIgDQpJc01pbWVFcnJvciA9ICdJc01pbWVFcnJvcicgDQoNCmRl ZiBtaW1laWZ5KCBmcCwgZGJvdW5kLCBtYm91bmQsIG91dCApOg0KIyAgZnAg aXMgaW5wdXQgZmlsZQ0KIyAgZGJvdW5kIGlzIHRoZSAoaW5wdXQpIGRpZ2Vz dCBib3VuZGFyeSBzdHJpbmcgDQojICBtYm91bmQgaXMgdGhlIChvdXRwdXQp IG1pbWUgbXVsdGlwYXJ0IGJvdW5kYXJ5IHN0cmluZw0KIyAgb3V0IGlzIHRo ZSBzaW5rIGZ1bmN0aW9uIGZvciBvdXRwdXQgKHR5cGljYWxseTogZmlsZS53 cml0ZSBvciBsaXN0LmFwcGVuZCkNCiMgDQoJbSA9IE1lc3NhZ2UoIGZwICkJ IyBwYXJzZXMgcmZjODIyIGhlYWRlcnMsIGFuZCBsZWF2ZXMgZmlsZSBwb3Mg YXQgbm9uIGhlYWRlciBsaW5lDQoJaWYgbS5nZXRoZWFkZXIoJ01pbWUtVmVy c2lvbicpIDogDQoJCXJhaXNlICBJc01pbWVFcnJvciwgJ21lc3NhZ2UgaXMg YWxyZWFkeSBpbiBNSU1FIGZvcm1hdCcNCgkJIyBpdCdzIHBvc3NpYmxlIHRv IGNoZWNrIENvbnRlbnQtVHlwZTogYW5kIHNlZSBpZiBhbnkNCgkJIyBmdXJ0 aGVyIHByb2Nlc3NpbmcgY2FuIGJlIGRvbmUsIGJ1dCBmb3Igbm93OiBOTy4g DQoJbS5oZWFkZXJzLmFwcGVuZCggJ01JTUUtVmVyc2lvbjogMS4wXG4nICkN CgltLmhlYWRlcnMuYXBwZW5kKCBDb250ZW50X1R5cGUgKyAnIicgKyBtYm91 bmQgKyAnIiBcbicgKQ0KCWZvciBsaW5lIGluIG0uaGVhZGVyczoNCgkJb3V0 KCBsaW5lICkNCglvdXQoICdcblxuIFRoaXMgTUlNRSBkaWdlc3QgcHJvZHVj ZWQgYnkgZGlnZXN0Mm1pbWUucHlcbicgKQ0KCW91dCggIiBJZiB5b3UgY2Fu IHJlYWQgdGhpcywgdGhlbiB5b3UgZG9uJ3QgbmVlZCB0aGUgcHJvZ3JhbSFc biIgKQ0KCW91dCggJ1xuLS0nK21ib3VuZCsnXG5cbicgKQ0KCWRibGVuID0g bGVuKCBkYm91bmQgKQ0KCWxpbmUgPSAnVHJ1ZScgDQoJd2hpbGUgbGluZTog IA0KIyBjdXJyZW50IHZlcnNpb24gb25seSByZWFkcyBleHBlY3RzIGEgZmls ZSB3aXRoIGEgc2luZ2xlIGRpZ2VzdA0KIyBNdXN0IGNoZWNrIGZvciBtZXNz YWdlIGRlbGltaXRlciBpZiB3ZSB3YW50IHRvIGhhbmRsZSBtdWx0aXBsZXMN CgkJbGluZSA9IGZwLnJlYWRsaW5lKCkNCgkJaWYgbGluZVs6ZGJsZW5dID09 IGRib3VuZCA6IA0KCQkJbGluZSA9IGZwLnJlYWRsaW5lKCkgICMgc2hvdWxk IGJlIGEgYmxhbmsgbGluZSAtIG91Z2h0IHRvIHZlcmlmeQ0KCQkJb3V0KCAn XG4tLScrbWJvdW5kKydcbicgKQ0KCQkJbW0gPSBNZXNzYWdlKCBmcCApIA0K CQkJc3ViaiA9IHN0cmluZy5zdHJpcChtbS5nZXRoZWFkZXIoJ3N1YmplY3Qn KSBvciAnJykNCgkJCWZybSA9ICBzdHJpbmcuc3RyaXAobW0uZ2V0aGVhZGVy KCdmcm9tJykgb3IgJycpDQoJCQlpZiBmcm0gb3Igc3ViaiA6DQoJCQkJb3V0 KCAnQ29udGVudC1EZXNjcmlwdGlvbjogJytzdWJqWzo0NF0rICcgKCcgK2Zy bSsnKVxuXG4nICkNCgkJCWVsc2U6IG91dCggJ1xuJyApDQoJCQlmb3IgaGRy IGluIG1tLmhlYWRlcnM6IG91dCggaGRyICkJCQkNCgkJZWxzZTogb3V0KCBs aW5lICApIA0KCW91dCggJ1xuLS0nICsgbWJvdW5kICsgJy0tXG4nICkgDQoN Cg0KDQppZiBfX25hbWVfXyA9PSAiX19tYWluX18iIDogDQogICAgaW1wb3J0 IHN5cw0KICAgIGlmIHN5cy5hcmd2WzE6XSA6IGZpbGUgPSBvcGVuKCBzeXMu YXJndlsxXSwgJ3InICkNCiAgICBlbHNlOiAgZmlsZSA9IHN5cy5zdGRpbiAN CiAgICBpZiBzeXMuYXJndlsyOl0gOiBvdXQgPSBvcGVuKCBzeXMuYXJndlsy XSwgJ3cnICkNCiAgICBlbHNlOiAgb3V0ID0gc3lzLnN0ZG91dCANCiAgICBt aW1laWZ5KCBmaWxlLCAnLScqOCwgJy0nKjgrIi4uLi4uX25leHRfbWVzc2Fn ZV8uLi4uLiIsIG91dC53cml0ZSApDQoNCg0K ---2138107840-2078917053-778568888=:24683-- From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 6 15:35:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA16458; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:35:11 GMT Received: from onpmomma.isc-br.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id IAA16450; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 08:34:56 -0700 Received: from ppnt-cap by onpmomma.isc-br.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0qi2dM-000AHFC; Tue, 6 Sep 94 08:40 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 6 Sep 94 08:40 PDT X-Sender: carlp@onpmomma.isc-br.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jerry Peek, O'Reilly & Associates Inc." , (Merged list of)list-managers@GreatCircle.com, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com From: carlp@onpmomma.isc-br.com (Carl Paukstis) Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips X-Mailer: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:54 AM 8/26/94 -0700, Jerry Peek, O'Reilly & Associates Inc. wrote: Jerry - I'm glad to learn that you are writing this book. Here are some comments based on ListProc 6.0b. I've never taken the time to upgrade to 6.0c. I've been running ListProc since 5.0a. I'd like to know how much trouble I'll have in updating to 6.0c, and what the benefits are, given that the original port was dead-easy, and now my 10 lists are running fine. >Here are some of the things I'm looking for: >- Do you do something that other list owners/admins would find helpful? I have a PERL script which generates posting statistics for a list for a month. I have a PERL script which does my notion of a month-end cleanup for a given list, and for the top-level ListProc logs. I have a PERL script which I use as an "answering machine" for the listname-request address. I'll send these to you if you're interested. >- Have you customized your list software to do something useful? - I diddled the signup code to remove mention of ILP and clarify the language. - I changed list.c and listproc.c to ALWAYS include hostname in the HELO string for the system mail text generation. This seems to be absolutely required by about 5% of my subscribers' sites. Otherwise, my system is mainly stock. >- What do you wish you'd known when you started being a list owner/admin -- > that you had to learn "the hard way" instead? - ListProc does not clean up any of its own messes. It's necessary to write your own scripts and use cron or manual processing to run them. I tend to run cleanup monthly. - Don't ever "cheat" and edit the .subscribers file with ListProc running. You'll probably drop somebody's subscription which got added by listproc while you were editing. - Do NOT make "listname-request" an alias for "listproc"! The messages people get back from this are almost always "error, you screwed up", and this either annoys or confuses people. Send listname-request either to an answering-machine script or to a human list-manager. - Learn to use the SYSTEM request, even if only for subscribe/unsubscribe/set list mail mode. It will help a lot if you're travelling with a laptop, and even if you're not - it's damned handy. - Write a FAQ or similar, and put it in the .info and .welcome files. I make them identical' it's easier. Explaint your list's policies, and explain in friendly language how to subscribe, unsubscribe, change into (AND OUT OF!) "digest" mode, etc. Most people won't read it - repost it to the list monthly; it may save you a few minutes. - The list owner should not care about people who attempt to subscribe or unsubscribe and fail. There are MULTIPLE ways they can learn what's wrong if they'll just read. If they won't read, you don't want them - you'll end up babysitting them every time they need anything administrative. Conversely, if they ASK you for help - be as helpful as possible without doing it for them. - Use at least CCERRORS in the owners file. If somebody's mail starts bouncing, POSTPONE them or UNSUBSCRIBE them right away. If you have other subscribers at the same site, ask them to tell the bouncer to get in touch with you. Then forget it. As above - if they won't work to fix it, you don't need them. If EVERYBODY at a given site starts bouncing, the problem is obvious - and don't UNSUBSCRIBE the right away. >- What have been your toughest problems? If you've solved them, how? - DNS lookup for SMTP via system mailmethod caused a LOT of excess network traffic and CPU usage on my list machine. Solved by running a caching named on the list machine itself. - ListProc uses the "From " line, not the "From:" line, to determine return addresses. Our site uses smail3, and the "From " line always contains a bang-path. This causes MUCH confusion among the list operator, users, etc. The alias schemes I've seen to deal with this will only work for 95% of the addresses - and 95% of the addresses don't give me a problem. I've "solved" this by telling people not to worry about it, and dealing case-by-case with the few actual technical problems that do come up. >- What topics should this book cover -- and why? - I wish there had been a startup checklist. There's a lot of configuration to be done, and no central documentation which describes it comprehensively. - I wish there were fewer options, and that the defaults and examples were consistent. This is related to the configuration stuff - I don't want to choose between "you might want to do this THIS way, and you MIGHT want to do it THAT way" when the subject under discussion is new/foreign to me. I wanted a default which should work for most circumstances, and learn the details later. - A guide to the most-frequently-used commands and options, separated for listproc managers and for list-owners. - A section on remote-listowner duties, the commands and tasks they're likely to need to perform, etc. - A discussion of e-mail ettiquite, suitable for posting to all mailing lists. I get a lot of PeeCee mail users who are wont to put 2 new lines at the TOP of 200 lines of uselessly-quoted material, which annoys me and many other users. >P.S. I understand how people feel about "commercial" messages to lists; I have no problem with messages of this sort. Let me know how it's going - I'm happy to discuss my ideas or others, and to expand on anything I didn't make clear above. Thanks. -- Carl Paukstis, RRR&RSG DoD#0432 1KQSPI=8.80 carlp@mail.spk.olivetti.com Olivetti North America carlp@mom.isc-br.com (Oli North): will deny responsibility voice: (509) 927-5439 0700-1600 M-F Spokane, Washington, USA FAX: (509) 927-2499 24 hrs. From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 6 22:05:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id WAA19860; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 22:05:22 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA19854; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 15:05:12 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:59:28 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:59:27 +0200 Date: Tue, 6 Sep 1994 23:59:27 +0200 Message-Id: <199409062159.9918.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com In-reply-to: (carlp@onpmomma.isc-br.com) Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Carl Paukstis: | - Do NOT make "listname-request" an alias for "listproc"! The | messages people get back from this are almost always "error, you | screwed up", and this either annoys or confuses people. Send | listname-request either to an answering-machine script or to a | human list-manager. I am not familiar with LISTPROC, but it seems to me it should be easy to make the "error, you screwed up" message nearly identical to the "wrong address, here's how" automatic message. In any case, at least 50% of the mail I receive at *-request is on a form parseable by a computer ("(un)subscribe" in either Subject: or first line of body), even if I state clearly most places that there's a human at the other end. I think it is worthwhile to try to process the request at either address. There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 7 13:06:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id NAA25884; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 13:06:32 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id GAA25869; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 06:04:46 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id JAA09942; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 09:10:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199409071310.JAA09942@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 1994 09:10:38 EDT In-Reply-To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme "Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips" (Sep 6, 11:59pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme , list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. There's no question that what you suggest is the better, more elegant, more "correct" approach. But what's happening in the real world is that list managers are using the software name as the address, and folks are writing books announcing it, and users are learning what commands to use for each software, and others are writing front ends that know what commands to use for each software, and for a few folks to try to change it at this time is just, forgive the expression, pissing into the wind. --Mike From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 7 14:59:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA26511; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 14:59:30 GMT Received: from ruby.ora.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id HAA26500; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 07:58:38 -0700 Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.17]) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA08311 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 11:03:44 -0400 Received: by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA21426; Wed, 7 Sep 94 07:38:51 PDT From: Jerry Peek Reply-To: jerry@ora.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips In-Reply-To: Message from Kjetil Torgrim Homme of "Tue, 06 Sep 1994 23:59:27 +0200." <199409062159.9918.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 07:38:50 -0700 Message-Id: <21425.778948730@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. Here's one reason I used to give for not depending on "foo-request." Back in the Dark Ages when I started using this email stuff, lots of systems would truncate addresses that were longer than 8 characters. "-request" is 8 characters long, by itself. Is that still a problem?? -- Jerry Peek; O'Reilly & Associates; Sebastopol, CA 95472 USA; jerry@ora.com Info: gopher gopher.ora.com (or telnet, and login: gopher), or info@ora.com Orders: (800)998-9938, +1 707-829-0515, fax +1 707-829-0104, or order@ora.com From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 7 16:22:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA27046; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 16:22:32 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA27036; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 09:22:01 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id MAA11766; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 12:24:07 -0400 Message-Id: <199409071624.MAA11766@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) cc: Kjetil Torgrim Homme , list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Sep 1994 09:10:38 EDT." <199409071310.JAA09942@z.nsf.gov> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 12:23:59 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: > > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. > > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I > > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. > > There's no question that what you suggest is the better, more elegant, > more "correct" approach. But what's happening in the real world is > that list managers are using the software name as the address, and > folks are writing books announcing it, [...] others are writing front ends > that know what commands to use for each software, and for a few folks > to try to change it at this time is just, forgive the expression, > pissing into the wind. None of these efforts involves more than a "few folks". Maybe they're all pissing into the wind, but it's not true that a few people can't make a difference....as long as it doesn't turn into a pissing contest! Keith From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 7 16:24:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA27105; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 16:24:57 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA27098; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 09:24:50 -0700 Message-Id: <199409071624.JAA27098@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: jerry@ora.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Kjetil Torgrim Homme Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 07 Sep 1994 07:38:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 09:24:49 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jerry Peek writes: # Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: # > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: # > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. # > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I # > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. # # Here's one reason I used to give for not depending on "foo-request." # Back in the Dark Ages when I started using this email stuff, lots of # systems would truncate addresses that were longer than 8 characters. # "-request" is 8 characters long, by itself. Is that still a problem?? No. Some systems might have problems handling local delivery addresses with more than 8 characters, but any system that wants to play on the Internet today has to be able to handle a left-hand side of more than 8 characters for outgoing mail. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 8 03:37:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id DAA01694; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 03:37:16 GMT Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id UAA01674; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 20:35:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199409080335.UAA01674@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 07 Sep 1994 19:48:59 EDT Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: > > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. > > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I > > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. > > There's no question that what you suggest is the better, more elegant, > more "correct" approach. But what's happening in the real world is > that list managers are using the software name as the address, and > folks are writing books announcing it, and users are learning what > commands to use for each software, and others are writing front ends > that know what commands to use for each software, and for a few folks > to try to change it at this time is just, forgive the expression, > pissing into the wind. A lot of people think that listname-request ought to reach a person, or at least a message that tells you how to reach a person if you really need to. I'm one of them. The latest version of L-Soft's LISTSERV supports listname-server as a software imdependent way to address the list server software. Seems like a reasonable convention to me. But it's true that it has yet to catch on. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 4265 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Postmaster for CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, NIH3PLUS List owner for PCIP, SNSTCP-L, and TN3270E, all @LIST.NIH.GOV From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 8 04:26:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id EAA01909; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 04:26:41 GMT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id VAA01889; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:26:01 -0700 Received: from cygnus.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQxgkn06212; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 00:29:54 -0400 Received: from tweedledumb.cygnus.com (tweedledumb.cygnus.com [192.80.44.1]) by cygnus.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA02286; Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:29:52 -0700 Received: by tweedledumb.cygnus.com (4.1/4.7) id AA14633; Thu, 8 Sep 94 00:29:45 EDT Received: by perdiem.cygnus.com (5.67/4.7) id AA00160; Thu, 8 Sep 94 00:30:33 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 Sep 94 00:30:33 -0400 From: "Mark W. Eichin" Message-Id: <9409080430.AA00160@perdiem.cygnus.com> To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Cc: mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com In-Reply-To: <199409080335.UAA01674@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> (RAF@CU.NIH.GOV) Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your tips Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A lot of people think that listname-request ought to reach a person, > or at least a message that tells you how to reach a person if you RFC 1206 says it fairly clearly -- though in the form of "most" and "usually" rather than "must" or "shall"... When I ported the comp.os.linux.* digest lists over to majordomo (an old version, before it had any -request support) I just added a short (two or three line) hack so that it would *try* to parse -request mail correctly, since my experience had been that people overwhelmingly assume an automated responder anyway... and they valued prompt response over politeness. If it can't parse the message, they get the normal help bounced back, and figure it out pretty quickly. _Mark_ MIT Student Information Processing Board Cygnus Support User Services Working Group [Page 15] RFC 1206 FYI Q/A - for New Internet Users February 1991 9. Mailing Lists What is a mailing list? A mailing list is really nothing more than an alias that has multiple destinations. Mailing lists are usually created to discuss specific topics. Anybody interested in that topic, may (usually) join that list. Some mailing lists have membership restrictions, others have message content restrictions, and still others are moderated. Most large, "public" mailing lists, such as IETF and TCP-IP, have an additional mail address to which requests to be added or deleted may be sent. Usually, these are of the form listname-request. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 8 12:51:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id MAA05593; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 12:51:36 GMT Received: from relay.surfnet.nl by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id FAA05586; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 05:51:24 -0700 Received: from erasmus.rare.nl by relay.surfnet.nl with SMTP (PP) id <27742-0@relay.surfnet.nl>; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:56:24 +0200 Received: by erasmus.rare.nl (5.65c/4.31) id AA12068; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:56:44 +0200 From: martin@rare.nl (John Martin) Message-Id: <199409081256.AA12068@erasmus.rare.nl> Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV (Roger Fajman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:56:44 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com In-Reply-To: <199409080335.UAA01674@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "Roger Fajman" at Sep 7, 94 07:48:59 pm Organisation: RARE Address: Singel 466-468, NL-1017 AW Amsterdam Phone: +31 20 639 1131 (voice) +31 20 639 3289 (fax) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1011 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Re: > A lot of people think that listname-request ought to reach a person, > or at least a message that tells you how to reach a person if you > really need to. I'm one of them. > Opinion is divided here - there is no concensous - thats the whole problem. > The latest version of L-Soft's LISTSERV supports listname-server > as a software imdependent way to address the list server software. Seems like a contradiction here: the fact that Listserv supports it doesn't make it 'software independant' - quite the contrary in fact. > Seems like a reasonable convention to me. But it's true that it > has yet to catch on. I dont agree with adding new conventions in the vain hope that they will catch on: there are enough 'conventions' around already... except they are implemented slightly differently by each new sw author :-( Ironically, Listserv is what has defined many of the conventions in use today: there are a lot of programs which answer listserv@host which are not even close. Regards, John From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 8 14:50:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA06515; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 14:50:49 GMT Received: from caffeine by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id HAA06495; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 07:50:06 -0700 From: tasos@avs.com Received: from pitbull.avs.com by caffeine (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA09397; Thu, 8 Sep 94 10:51:44 EDT Received: by pitbull.avs.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15910; Thu, 8 Sep 94 10:53:44 EDT Message-Id: <9409081453.AA15910@pitbull.avs.com> Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 10:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com In-Reply-To: <9409080338.AA26664@caffeine> from "Roger Fajman" at Sep 7, 94 07:48:59 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1209 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger Fajman said: > > > > There are currentlyso many possible addresses to use for requests: > > > listserv, listproc, majordomo, intermail, foo-request to name a few. > > > Only one of these naming conventions is software independent, so I > > > think we should try to make "foo-request" the norm. > > > > There's no question that what you suggest is the better, more elegant, > > more "correct" approach. But what's happening in the real world is > > that list managers are using the software name as the address, and > > folks are writing books announcing it, and users are learning what > > commands to use for each software, and others are writing front ends > > that know what commands to use for each software, and for a few folks > > to try to change it at this time is just, forgive the expression, > > pissing into the wind. > > A lot of people think that listname-request ought to reach a person, > or at least a message that tells you how to reach a person if you > really need to. I'm one of them. CREN's listproc 7.0 supports listname-request and forwards the mail to the owners. There will probably be an owner-controllable switch to redirect such emails to the automated server. Tasos From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 03:46:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id DAA12481; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 03:46:07 GMT Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id UAA12455; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:44:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199409090344.UAA12455@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: martin@rare.nl cc: mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, unix-listproc@avs.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Thu, 08 Sep 1994 23:08:21 EDT Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > A lot of people think that listname-request ought to reach a person, > > or at least a message that tells you how to reach a person if you > > really need to. I'm one of them. > > > Opinion is divided here - there is no concensous - thats the whole > problem. Yes, you are right. I was trying to point out to the original poster that a significant number of otehr people have a different opinion than the one he thought everyone shared. > > The latest version of L-Soft's LISTSERV supports listname-server > > as a software imdependent way to address the list server software. > > Seems like a contradiction here: the fact that Listserv supports it > doesn't make it 'software independant' - quite the contrary in fact. It's software-independent in that it does not use the name of the package. It's not software independent in that currently no package other than LISTSERV supports it. That could change. > > Seems like a reasonable convention to me. But it's true that it > > has yet to catch on. > > I dont agree with adding new conventions in the vain hope that they will > catch on: there are enough 'conventions' around already... except they > are implemented slightly differently by each new sw author :-( > Ironically, Listserv is what has defined many of the conventions > in use today: there are a lot of programs which answer listserv@host > which are not even close. Well, that's currently the only method available. The effort within the IETF a few years ago to have a working group on mailing list servers did not succeed. So far no one's been brave enough to try again. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 05:41:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id FAA12891; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 05:41:20 GMT Received: from bosnia.pop.psu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id WAA12872; Thu, 8 Sep 1994 22:40:35 -0700 Received: (from barr@localhost) by bosnia.pop.psu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id AAA14123; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 00:16:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 00:16:26 -0400 From: David Barr Message-Id: <199409090416.AAA14123@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Newsgroups: comp.mail.misc,comp.mail.sendmail,comp.mail.uucp,comp.mail.smail,bit.listserv.lstsrv-l,news.groups,news.announce.newgroups Subject: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} Keywords: mailing lists Summary: This is an official Request For Discussion Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Request For Discussion *** This is not a vote *** This is a formal RFD to discuss the creation of groups for the discussion of mailing list software and issues involved in running mailing lists. This RFD is also being sent to the following mailing lists: list-managers@greatcircle.com majordomo-users@greatcircle.com comp.mail.list-admin.policy Policy issues in running mailing lists comp.mail.list-admin.software Software used in the running of mailing lists The groups will be unmoderated. For a long time there have been active groups for discussing administration of Usenet and discussion of Usenet software, but there is no analogous group for the discussion of mailing lists. There have been various list management mailing lists, as well as mailing lists devoted to certain specific mailing list software, but as yet no Usenet newsgroups. The Charters: comp.mail.list-admin.policy This group is for policy discussions involved in running a mailing list. This includes but is not limited to moderation policies, dealing with trouble users, privacy issues of sensitive lists, and policy issues involved with gating mailing lists into other media such as Usenet. This group is not for the announcement of new mailing lists. comp.mail.list-admin.software This group is for discussions involved with the selection, installation, and operation of software used to manage mailing lists. Discussion of the mail transport agents sendmail or smail should be held in comp.mail.sendmail or comp.mail.smail. This group is not for the announcement of new mailing lists. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 04:34:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA14302; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:31:17 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id CAA14282; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 02:29:36 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA12125; Fri, 9 Sep 94 11:32:14 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA23662; Fri, 9 Sep 94 11:31:55 +0200 Message-Id: <9409090931.AA23662@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 11:31:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Barr's message as of 1994 Sep 9 Fri 0:16. <199409090416.AAA14123@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> To: David Barr , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Barr wrote: > Request For Discussion >This is a formal RFD to discuss the creation of groups for the discussion >of mailing list software and issues involved in running mailing lists. >This RFD is also being sent to the following mailing lists: >list-managers@greatcircle.com >majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Any objections if I also send this to SmartList@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (a mailinglist for people using the SmartList mailinglist manager)? -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "To err is human, to debug ... divine." From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 16:00:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA17269; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:00:08 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id IAA17253; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 08:59:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199409091559.IAA17253@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: David Barr cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Reply-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 9 Sep 1994 00:16:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 08:59:54 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First, cross-posted calls for discussion are bad. You should have posted the message to each list separately, or better yet chosen or created _one_ list for followup discussions and directed everybody there. Therefore, I suggest List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM as the discussion forum for this topic, and have set the "Reply-To:" of this message to that list. David Barr writes: # comp.mail.list-admin.policy # This group is for policy discussions involved in running a # mailing list. This includes but is not limited to moderation policies, # dealing with trouble users, privacy issues of sensitive lists, and # policy issues involved with gating mailing lists into other media such # as Usenet. This group is not for the announcement of new mailing lists. This falls within the charter of the List-Managers mailing list. I don't think that a newsgroup is warranted by either subscribership (482 people between List-Managers and List-Managers-Digest) or volume (so far this year, anywhere from 20 to 175 message/month, averaging only about 85 messages/month). # comp.mail.list-admin.software # This group is for discussions involved with the selection, # installation, and operation of software used to manage mailing lists. # Discussion of the mail transport agents sendmail or smail should be # held in comp.mail.sendmail or comp.mail.smail. This group is not for # the announcement of new mailing lists. This falls partially within the charter of List-Managers (when it's discussion of generic software issues, comparisons of various list management programs, and so forth), and partially within the charters of the various package-specific mailing lists (for instance, Majordomo-Users and Majordomo-Workers). Again, I don't think that a newsgroup is warranted by either subscribership or volume. There's little enough discussion of these topics as is; why dilute it further by splitting it between the existing mailing lists and new newsgroups? -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 16:11:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA17473; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:11:46 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA17457; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:11:32 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id MAA16213; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:16:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199409091616.MAA16213@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: David Barr cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Sep 1994 00:16:26 EDT." <199409090416.AAA14123@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 12:16:00 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > comp.mail.list-admin.policy Policy issues in running mailing lists > comp.mail.list-admin.software Software used in the running of mailing lists If you want a productive discussion of either of these topics, Usenet is the worst possible place to have it. The reason? There are very few people with the required expertise, but lots of people who have an opinion to contribute. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 16:23:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA17594; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:23:52 GMT Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA17588; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:23:43 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 94 12:29:13 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9409091229.aa23973@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >First, cross-posted calls for discussion are bad. You should have >posted the message to each list separately, or better yet chosen or >created _one_ list for followup discussions and directed everybody >there. > >Therefore, I suggest List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM as the discussion >forum for this topic, and have set the "Reply-To:" of this message to >that list. I veto that suggestion (my veto and $0.25US gets you a cup of coffee where I work:-}). This is a USENET RFD. Conduct it via USENET. This list is MUCH too useful to be clotted up with such matters. Just my HO. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 16:27:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA17682; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:27:32 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA17671; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 09:27:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199409091627.JAA17671@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 9 Sep 94 12:29:13 EDT Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 09:27:22 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes: # >First, cross-posted calls for discussion are bad. You should have # >posted the message to each list separately, or better yet chosen or # >created _one_ list for followup discussions and directed everybody # >there. # > # >Therefore, I suggest List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM as the discussion # >forum for this topic, and have set the "Reply-To:" of this message to # >that list. # # I veto that suggestion (my veto and $0.25US gets you a cup of coffee where I # work:-}). # # This is a USENET RFD. Conduct it via USENET. This list is MUCH too useful # to be clotted up with such matters. # # Just my HO. I meant "among the mailing lists it was cross-posted to". I.e., I really didn't see any reason for this to be discussed on Majordomo-Users. It's going to be talked to death on USENET regardless. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 17:25:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id RAA18376; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 17:25:05 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id KAA18368; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 10:24:57 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07920; Fri, 9 Sep 94 13:29:12 EDT Message-Id: <9409091729.AA07920@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 9 Sep 1994 13:11 EDT Subject: Re: Followup address to RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.... Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is a USENET RFD. Conduct it via USENET. This list is MUCH too useful >to be clotted up with such matters. >Just my HO. > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > I second the above statement, which should be obvious to regular USENET readers, where cross-posting of news articles is GOOD (where appropriate) and posting separately is BAD (almost always). Even there, news.groups is the place for all followups to RFDs, just because of all the noise that RFDs generate. (I have an opinion on this RFD too, but that's where it's going.) Only the major milestones in the new group creation should be published more globally (including pertinent lists): Initial RFD, Call for Votes, Final Call for Votes, Results of the Exercise. Also just my opinion.... Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 19:09:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA19587; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:09:32 GMT Received: from alcor.concordia.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id MAA19578; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:09:22 -0700 Received: from localhost (anne@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alcor.concordia.ca (8.6.7/8.6.6) with SMTP id PAA07030; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:14:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199409091914.PAA07030@alcor.concordia.ca> X-Authentication-Warning: alcor.concordia.ca: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 09 Sep 94 08:59:54 PDT Date: Fri, 09 Sep 94 15:14:20 EDT From: Anne Bennett Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman writes: > I don't think that a newsgroup is warranted by either subscribership > (482 people between List-Managers and List-Managers-Digest) or volume > (so far this year, anywhere from 20 to 175 message/month, averaging > only about 85 messages/month). > > There's little enough discussion of these topics as is; why dilute it > further by splitting it between the existing mailing lists and new > newsgroups? I disagree completely. I subscribe to both mailing lists only *because* they are not available as newsgroups. I can read a newsgroup with the full power of strn, including killfiles and scorefiles -- not to mention I don't have to deal with messages twice when they are crossposted correctly. I would much prefer to deal with these issues on a newsgroup. Mailing lists have their place, of course (why else am I a satisfied Majordomo-Owner! :-) ), but I think both proposed topics are of sufficiently wide interest to justify the use of a newsgroup. I intend to support the proposal. The discussion would not be diluted if the mailing lists were gatewayed to the newsgroups; however, in view of Brent's opinion above, I suppose that is not likely to happen. :-( Anne. (Administrator for Concordia mail relay, news transfer, and DNS) Ms. Anne Bennett, Computing Services, Concordia University, Montreal H3G 1M8 anne@alcor.concordia.ca (514) 848-7606 From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 19:39:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA19793; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:39:14 GMT Received: from yukon.cren.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id MAA19787; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 12:38:56 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with ESMTP id <79823-7>; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:35:19 -0400 To: "Roger Fajman" cc: martin@rare.nl, mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 1994 23:08:21 EDT." <199409090344.UAA12455@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:35:01 -0400 From: Marco Hernandez Message-Id: <94Sep9.153519edt.79823-7@yukon.cren.org> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It's software-independent in that it does not use the name of the > package. It's not software independent in that currently no package > other than LISTSERV supports it. That could change. > Not really correct, Listproc 7.0 supports the listname-request convention. /Marco Hernandez From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 20:06:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id UAA20018; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 20:06:59 GMT Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id NAA19999; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 13:06:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199409092006.NAA19999@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: marco@yukon.cren.org cc: martin@rare.nl, mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 15:43:22 EDT Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > It's software-independent in that it does not use the name of the > > package. It's not software independent in that currently no package > > other than LISTSERV supports it. That could change. > > > > Not really correct, Listproc 7.0 supports the listname-request convention. > > /Marco Hernandez I was talking about listname-server. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 9 21:39:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id VAA20775; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 21:39:53 GMT Received: from unpc.queernet.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA20756; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 14:39:03 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0qjCA4-00014wC; Fri, 9 Sep 94 13:03 PDT Message-Id: To: Marco Hernandez cc: "Roger Fajman" , martin@rare.nl, mmorse@nsf.gov, kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, unix-listproc@avs.com Subject: Re: Be famous :-) and help other list owners: send me your In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 09 Sep 1994 15:35:01 -0400. <94Sep9.153519edt.79823-7@yukon.cren.org> Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 13:02:24 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > It's software-independent in that it does not use the name of the > > package. It's not software independent in that currently no package > > other than LISTSERV supports it. That could change. > > > > Not really correct, Listproc 7.0 supports the listname-request convention. The non-convention at hand was "listname-server". --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 11 22:46:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id WAA03762; Sun, 11 Sep 1994 22:46:15 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA21324; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 15:57:44 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id TAA16401; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:02:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199409092302.TAA16401@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Anne Bennett cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Sep 1994 15:14:20 EDT." <199409091914.PAA07030@alcor.concordia.ca> Date: Fri, 09 Sep 1994 19:02:28 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anne Bennett writes: > I disagree completely. I subscribe to both mailing lists only *because* > they are not available as newsgroups. I can read a newsgroup with the > full power of strn, including killfiles and scorefiles -- not to mention > I don't have to deal with messages twice when they are crossposted > correctly. I would much prefer to deal with these issues on a newsgroup. I get this kind of complaint all the time from people who are on some of the lists I run....that is, that they want stuff to be posted to Usenet so they can use their more functional news reader, instead of getting a more functional mail reader! (All of the functions listed above exist for e-mail...but not as widely as they do for usenet...probably this is because usenet became a swamp first.) I consider it irresponsible to discuss stuff on Usenet that doesn't have a sufficiently wide audience (probably in the thousands of people) to merit the use of the bandwidth. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 11 23:05:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id XAA04006; Sun, 11 Sep 1994 23:05:21 GMT Received: from bb.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA21454; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 16:16:55 -0700 Received: (from cactus@localhost) by bb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA01138; Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:27:36 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 1994 19:27:36 -0400 From: "L. Todd Masco" Message-Id: <199409092327.TAA01138@bb.com> To: list-managers@bb.com Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} Newsgroups: hks.lists.list-managers In-Reply-To: <199409091914.PAA07030@alcor.concordia.ca> Organization: Bibliobytes books on computers, info@bb.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199409091914.PAA07030@alcor.concordia.ca> you write: >I disagree completely. I subscribe to both mailing lists only *because* >they are not available as newsgroups. I can read a newsgroup with the >full power of strn, including killfiles and scorefiles -- not to mention >I don't have to deal with messages twice when they are crossposted >correctly. Errr... why don't you set up local newsgroups and gateway mailing lists into them with newsgate, then? That what we do here with roughly 100 lists. It's very nice, once it's set up. [Though to anybody who does this, I'd heavily recommend disabling INN's "check for included text vs. new text" 'feature'; otherwise, you'll lose messages without ever knowing it.] -- L. Todd Masco | "Hide, witch, hide! The good folk come to burn thee, their cactus@bb.com | keen enjoyment hid behind a gothic mask of duty." -JS/BATE From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 12 12:58:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id MAA08194; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:58:16 GMT Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id FAA08188; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 05:58:08 -0700 Received: from QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AA06849; Mon, 12 Sep 94 09:03:30 EDT Received: from Mailer (QuickMail(tm) 143) by QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca (PostalUnion/SMTP 1.1.1) id AA58.2862205189; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:12:18 EDT Message-Id: <1994Sep12.085949.2862205189@QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers) From: maier@QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca (Valerie Maier) Organization: Communications Research Centre, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, CANADA Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 08:59:49 EDT Subject: NDN:List Managers Digest V3 #161 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PostalUnion-QM(tm) 'Non-Delivery Notice'! Your mail through the QuickMail 'INTERNET' Gateway could not be delivered! ***QuickMail Internal FileToMail Err -108, Unable to Deliver! It has been deleted. Please re-send with correct addressing. Valerie E. Maier valerie.maier@crc.doc.ca Communications Research Centre, OTTAWA, CANADA Voice: (613) 990-7915 Fax: (613) 998-3179 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 12 12:59:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id MAA08222; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 12:59:05 GMT Received: from clark.dgim.doc.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id FAA08211; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 05:58:51 -0700 Received: from by clark.dgim.doc.ca (4.1/SMI-4.1.tee) id AB06849; Mon, 12 Sep 94 09:04:14 EDT Received: from Mailer (QuickMail(tm) 143) by QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca (PostalUnion/SMTP 1.1.1) id AA58.2862205158; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:13:01 EDT Message-Id: <1994Sep12.085918.2862205158@QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers) From: maier@QMAIL.dgrc.doc.ca (Valerie Maier) Organization: Communications Research Centre, OTTAWA, ONTARIO, CANADA Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 08:59:18 EDT Subject: NDN:List Managers Digest V3 #162 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PostalUnion-QM(tm) 'Non-Delivery Notice'! Your mail through the QuickMail 'INTERNET' Gateway could not be delivered! ***QuickMail Internal FileToMail Err -108, Unable to Deliver! It has been deleted. Please re-send with correct addressing. Valerie E. Maier valerie.maier@crc.doc.ca Communications Research Centre, OTTAWA, CANADA Voice: (613) 990-7915 Fax: (613) 998-3179 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 12 14:40:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA09760; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:40:17 GMT Received: from bosnia.pop.psu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id HAA09750; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 07:39:53 -0700 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by bosnia.pop.psu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA07713 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:49:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199409121349.JAA07713@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Sep 1994 19:02:28 EDT." <199409092302.TAA16401@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:49:09 -0400 From: David Barr Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199409092302.TAA16401@wilma.cs.utk.edu>, Keith Moore writes: >I get this kind of complaint all the time from people who are on >some of the lists I run....that is, that they want stuff to be >posted to Usenet so they can use their more functional news reader, >instead of getting a more functional mail reader! (All of the >functions listed above exist for e-mail...but not as widely as >they do for usenet...probably this is because usenet became a >swamp first.) So where can I get a mail reader for UNIX, with killfiles, threading, and all the other features of trn without having to bug my news admin to gate it to a local newsgroup? (in my case the news admin is me, but not for everyone) >I consider it irresponsible to discuss stuff on Usenet that doesn't have a >sufficiently wide audience (probably in the thousands of people) to merit the >use of the bandwidth. At last count, Stephanie's list had about 1000 public mailing lists out there. Who knows how many LISTSERV lists are out there that aren't registered, but probably almost that many. Then count all the _non_ public lists. The majority of sites of any reasonable size I know have at least several internal mailing lists. Those are potentially on the order of several thousand. Remember for Usenet, all you need is _one_ person at a site that reads the group, and you break even. After that, you're ahead. I resent being implied "irresponsible" when it's blatantly clear that list-managers is missing a large potential audience, and that a newsgroup is both sufficent and desirable given the readership. --Dave From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 12 16:07:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA10584; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 16:07:02 GMT Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id JAA10576; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:06:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199409121606.JAA10576@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3222; Mon, 12 Sep 94 18:09:38 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 2946; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:09:38 +0200 Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 18:06:36 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:49:09 -0400 from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:49:09 -0400 David Barr said: >Remember for Usenet, all you need is _one_ person at a site that reads >the group, and you break even. After that, you're ahead. May I kindly point out that usenet news reaches tens of thousands of computers, on the vast majority of which there will be zero reader for your group. Thus, the real equation is that you need tens of thousands of readers to break even. Before that, you're wasting bandwidth and disk space on tens of thousands of sites whose users aren't interested in the group. Note that I don't care either way about your RFD. I just wanted to set the record straight. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 12 21:48:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id VAA13965; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 21:48:30 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA13952; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 14:48:17 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id RAA19074; Mon, 12 Sep 1994 17:53:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199409122153.RAA19074@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: David Barr cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Sep 1994 09:49:09 EDT." <199409121349.JAA07713@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 1994 17:52:53 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In message <199409092302.TAA16401@wilma.cs.utk.edu>, Keith Moore writes: > >I get this kind of complaint all the time from people who are on > >some of the lists I run....that is, that they want stuff to be > >posted to Usenet so they can use their more functional news reader, > >instead of getting a more functional mail reader! (All of the > >functions listed above exist for e-mail...but not as widely as > >they do for usenet...probably this is because usenet became a > >swamp first.) > > So where can I get a mail reader for UNIX, with killfiles, > threading, and all the other features of trn without having to bug > my news admin to gate it to a local newsgroup? (in my case the news > admin is me, but not for everyone) The equivalent of kill files can be done with .maildelivery (if you have MH) or procmail or any of a half a dozen other mail tools. Offhand I don't know of an integrated mail reader that does threads. But MH's pick program can find references headers including a particular message-id, and I seem to recall a version of MM that could find all replies to a particular message. I have also seen an add-on to MH called 'loosend' that sorted mailboxes into threads, based on in-reply-to, references, subject, and date headers (using the latter two as a last resort). I don't think it's generally available, but will ask the author... > At last count, Stephanie's list had about 1000 public mailing > lists out there. Who knows how many LISTSERV lists are out there that > aren't registered, but probably almost that many. Then count all the > _non_ public lists. The majority of sites of any reasonable size I know > have at least several internal mailing lists. Those are potentially on > the order of several thousand. Okay, well that sounds like it might meet my "worth the bandwidth criteria then. But are there actually 1000s of list managers (as opposed to lists)? Frequently a single person manages several lists. > Remember for Usenet, all you need is _one_ person at a site that reads the > group, and you break even. After that, you're ahead. Not true. You break even with respect to the amount of disk space and the amount of network bandwidth used to transmit the message to your site. But many newsgroups aren't read by anyone at a majority of sites. For each of those sites, bandwidth and disk space is wasted. > I resent being implied "irresponsible" when it's blatantly clear that > list-managers is missing a large potential audience, and that a newsgroup > is both sufficent and desirable given the readership. Even if the readership would be large enough to warrant distribution by Usenet, the signal-to-noise ratio might well decrease to the point that the list-managers discussion would no longer be useful. Unlike Usenet, this list actually seems to be useful a fair amount of the time. I'd hate to see that go away. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 16 00:31:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id GAA19003; Fri, 16 Sep 1994 06:47:43 GMT Received: from [143.191.19.72] by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA08114; Wed, 14 Sep 1994 19:38:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199409150238.TAA08114@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> X-Sender: brent@mycroft.greatcircle.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:43:27 -0500 To: "L. Todd Masco" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: RFD: comp.mail.list-admin.{policy,software} Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 19:27 9/9/94 -0400, L. Todd Masco wrote: >In article <199409091914.PAA07030@alcor.concordia.ca> you write: >>I disagree completely. I subscribe to both mailing lists only *because* >>they are not available as newsgroups. I can read a newsgroup with the >>full power of strn, including killfiles and scorefiles -- not to mention >>I don't have to deal with messages twice when they are crossposted >>correctly. > >Errr... why don't you set up local newsgroups and gateway mailing lists >into them with newsgate, then? That what we do here with roughly >100 lists. It's very nice, once it's set up. > >[Though to anybody who does this, I'd heavily recommend disabling INN's > "check for included text vs. new text" 'feature'; otherwise, you'll > lose messages without ever knowing it.] Also, make sure you set up your mail-to-news gateway so that when it's unhappy about something, the bounces come back to you, not to the list owner, or even worse, the original poster of the message, or worst of all, the list posting address. Most of the really bad mailing list loops I've encountered on my lists have been caused by mail-to-news gateways gone wild. Even if it's not looping, the list owner and/or the original poster don't _care_ that your mail-to-news gateway rejected the article for some reason (usually "too much included vs. new text"). -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 18 13:31:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA13995; Sun, 18 Sep 1994 19:30:51 GMT Received: from sun2.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id DAA05526; Sat, 17 Sep 1994 03:12:11 -0700 Via: uk.ac.southampton.beech; Sat, 17 Sep 1994 11:16:12 +0100 Received: from ecs.soton.ac.uk (root@localhost) by beech.soton.ac.uk (8.6.4/2.12) with NIFTP id KAA11538; Sat, 17 Sep 1994 10:54:12 +0100 Via: louis.ecs.soton.ac.uk; Sat, 17 Sep 94 10:59:10 BST From: Stevan Harnad Date: Sat, 17 Sep 94 11:00:29 BST Message-Id: <10393.9409171000@louis.ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: gs@reagan.ai.mit.edu (UNESCO List EJ LIB), serialst@uvmvm.bitnet (Lib Serials list), vpiej-l@vtvm1.bitnet (Pub-EJournals) Subject: Network Services Conference, London, November, NSC'94 (710 lines) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (majordomo), moderators@uunet.uu.net Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 22:28:24 IST From: David Sitman Subject: NSC'94 - Conference Announcement Announcement / Preliminary Program / Registration Form The Network Services Conference 1994 NSC'94 Great Western Royal Hotel London, England, 28-30 November 1994 Open computer networking is no longer the sole domain of universities and research institutions. Today, governments, schools, public organizations, commercial enterprises and private individuals are actively using and supplying information over the global Internet. How will these various network communities cooperate and interact? How will the academic and research community adapt to the new network reality? How will the network and networking tools now available stand up to the explosion in number of users and amount of information available? How will we train novices? What will we pay for and what will be for free as the commercialization of the network progresses? Will we be inundated by advertising over the net? These are only a few of the questions facing network service providers and users alike. Building on the success of the previous Network Services Conferences in Pisa (1992) and Warsaw (1993), NSC'94 will focus on the issue of providing services to customers, paying special attention to the exciting developments in global tools and services. We will address the impact of the new global tools on service development and support, the changing function of traditional tools and services (such as archives), new services (such as multi-media communications), the future role of the library and the effects of commercialization on networks and network services. Customer support at all levels, and the role of support in accessing global services, will also be covered. Talks, tutorials, demonstrations and other conference activities will address the needs of the research, academic, educational, government, industrial, and commercial network communities. NSC'94 is being organized by the EARN (European Academic and Research Network) Association in cooperation with the Internet Society, RARE, RIPE, NORDUnet and EUnet. Sessions and Presentations Note: exact titles and speakers to be confirmed Monday, November 28 9:00-10:30 Plenary Session Keynote Talk Steve Cisler, Apple 11:00-12:30 Parallel Sessions Session A1 - Delivering Information over the Net George Brett Overview of Information Delivery Projects and Tools Alan Emtage Identifying Resources in the Global Information Infrastructure Session B1 - Quality of Network Services Miriam Farber The Quality of Information on the Internet Manfred A. Bogen Handling of QoS Characteristics Hans-Ludwig Hausen Rainer Worst 12:30 Lunch 14:00-15:30 Parallel Sessions Session A2 - Scholarly Electronic Publishing Stevan Harnad Universal FTP archives for esoteric science and scholarship: a subversive proposal Hermann Maurer J.UCS - The Next Generation in Klaus Schmaranz Electronic Journal Publishing Session B2 - Multimedia Communications I Anne M. Mumford Supporting Multimedia Across the Network in UK Higher Education 26 3,6b Davide Caramella Multimedia Communication in Radiology: Enzo Dalle Mese the experience of the Tuscany MAN Massimo Del Sarto Stefano Giordano Franco Russo 16:00-17:30 Parallel Sessions Session A3 - Information Services in the former Soviet bloc Alexei P. Platonov RELARN Project: the Support of Telecommunications for Research & Education in Russia Magdalena Smolenova The reasons and goals of using Directory Services at the Slovak Academic Network Session B3 - Network Services for Special Interest Communities Reinhard Doelz Mastering the Challenge: Network Resources in Biology Joachim Luegger New Perspectives of a Distributed Electronic Information System for Mathematics 18:00 Panel discussions, Birds of a Feather Sessions (BOFs) Panel discussions are planned on law and ethics in electronic publishing and building the networking infrastucture in the former Soviet bloc. Birds of a Feather sessions may be convened at the request of any delegate to discuss a specific product, problem or concern. Other delegates, either with the same concern or who can provide a solution are invited to sign up for attendance. Tuesday, November 29 9:00-10:30 Parallel Sessions Session A4 - The Past and Future of Networking Klaus Birkenbihl With Bureaucrats and Freaks Ake Gronlund Public computer systems: a challenge for organizational learning Session B4 - Multimedia Communications II Pierre Ageron Images Data-Base Management System Patrick Desfarges on Local Network and on Internet Francois Besson Carlo Gaibisso Multimedia Conferencing on Packet Giorgio Gambosi Switched Networks: Testing and Maurizio Lancia Evaluation Maurizio Vitale 11:00-12:30 Parallel Sessions Session A5 - Commercial Network Services David Chaum Effective rules in cyberspace: what we may wish to do and what we can do Alan Emtage Publishers on the Net Session B5 - Beyond E-mail Susan Thomas A Model for Thinking about E-mail Systems Serge Desaranno Coordinating group communication Ferdi Put Dimitri Dimitroyannis Virtual Classroom: A case Study 12:30 Lunch 14:00-15:30 Parallel Sessions Session A6 - Libraries and Networking Andrew Colleran Aims Objectives and Practical Aspects of Project LIRN Christopher Doutney IBSS Online Terry Morrow Supporting a Networked Bibliographic Data Service - Hits and (a few) Misses Session B6 - Network Information Technology Louis Perrochon Translation Servers: Gateways Between Stateless and State-Oriented Information Systems Tomaz Klobucar An Application for User Support Denis Trcek in Using Global Security Services Borka Jerman-Blazic Franc Bracun 16:00-17:30 Parallel Sessions Session A7 - Networking non-HighTech Communities Miklos Pasztor Delivering information for Istvan Tetenyi the "poor" Anthea Tillyer International Teacher Training by LISTSERV Christian de Local Community Networks and Larrinaga Development Programmes - the key to sustainable development in the 21st century Session B7 - Scholarly Electronic Publishing II Mary Keeler A New Approach to Digital Resource Christian Kloesel Development (A New Method for Susan Lewis Marketing Digital Technology) Toby Paff Robert Rosenberg Rich Giordano The Text Encoding Initiative - Using the TEI Header 19:30 Banquet - Royal Cafe Wednesday, November 30 9:00-10:30 Parallel Sessions Session A8 - Networking in Schools Janet Ward Schofield The Internet in School: Lessons Gail Clark Futoran Learned from the First Year of a Rebecca Eurich-Fulcer National Testbed Oleg Smertin The Past, Present and Future of Rimas Janusauskas Lithuanian Networking for Schools Session B8 - Navigating the Web Tom Baker What's a Web without pages? Inke Bruening Lothar Klein Michael Lenz Jon Crowcroft Touring and Navigating a Global Learning Environment 11:00-12:30 Plenary Session Keynote Talk George Brett, CNIDR 12:30 Closing Cocktail Conference Venue We invite you to browse the information on London available from the EARN World-Wide Web server at: http://www.earn.net/nsc94/venue.html (and if you don't know about the World-Wide Web, then you MUST attend this conference!). The conference will be held at the Great Western Royal Hotel, near the Paddington railway station. The Great Western is one of the best 3 star conference venues in London, and very easy to get to, as it is situated on 4 underground lines, a railway station and is on a main road into central London. Great Western Royal Hotel Praed Street Paddington London W2 1HE UK Phone: +44 71 723 8064 Fax: +44 71 723 1739 Organizing Secretariat NSC'94 Conference Secretariat Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Chilton Didcot OX11 0QX UK Phone: +44 235 44 6750 Fax: +44 235 44 6665 Internet: nsc94@rl.ac.uk EARN/BITNET: nsc94@ukacrl.bitnet Posters, Connectivity and Demonstrations Poster boards will be available to participants for the display of their posters and projects. Proposals for posters should be sent to: NSC94@EARNCC.EARN.NET (or NSC94@EARNCC.BITNET). A terminal room with connectivity to the Internet will be available to delegates. Space will be available for workstations and PCs to be used for demonstrations. An Ethernet connected to the Internet will be available in this room. People interested in setting up demonstrations may send their proposals to NSC94@EARNCC.EARN.NET (or NSC94@EARNCC.BITNET) by 16 September 1994. Registration Please complete the enclosed registration/accommodation form and return it by electronic mail to the address given in the form. You can also register by fax or ordinary mail using the information in the form. Note that forms will be processed when the required payment is received. The conference fee covers entry to all conference sessions and demonstrations, conference material, coffee breaks, lunches and the banquet (fees are listed in pounds sterling): EARLY Registration by 10 October UKL 220 (ca. ECU 275) LATE Registration by 10 November UKL 250 (ca. ECU 312) DESK Registration UKL 280 (ca. ECU 350) To qualify for the early registration rate, your form and payment for registration must be sent to the Organizing Secretariat by 10 October 1994. The late registration rate applies to all payments sent after October 10 and before November 10, 1994. Registration will take place in the Great Western Royal Hotel at the conference office on Sunday, 27 November 1994, from 17:00 to 21:00 and throughout the whole conference. All payments must be in pounds sterling. For the cheques and the bank transfers, please ensure that your payment is made net of all bank charges. The preferred way of paying is by credit card (VISA, MASTERCARD, EUROCARD). International cheques or bankers drafts must be payable to: EPSRC, Chilton, Didcot, OX11 0QX, UK. Please state on the cheque "NSC'94" and the name(s) of the participant(s). Payments can be made by bank transfer to: Lloyds Bank Didcot, Sort Code 30-93-93, Account number 0143698. Please state "NSC'94" and the name(s) of the participant(s). Cancellation and Refunds Payments made for registration will be refunded, minus 30%, if cancellation reaches the Organizing Secretariat with a postal date of no later than 14 November 1994. Accommodation Hotel rooms have already been reserved for the conference participants. Please fill in the hotel reservation section of the form and return it to the Organizing Secretariat. Early reservation is recommended to obtain a room in the hotel preferred. Hotel costs will be paid on departure from the hotel. Final bills may be settled by credit card. The daily room charges in pounds sterling are as follows: Hotel Single Double UKL. UKL. Great Western Royal *** 70 90 Pavillion 48 60 Henry VIII 48 60 Blakemore 36 48 Prices indicated include breakfast, services and tax. All bedrooms have private bath or shower, and WC. All the hotels are within 10 minutes walking distance of the conference hotel. *** The Great Western Royal Hotel is the conference site. Lunch will be served in the Great Western Royal on Monday and Tuesday. Lunch tickets will be distributed with the conference materials. Extra tickets may be purchased on-site. The menus will be arranged to cover most dietary needs. Indicate any special dietary needs on the registration form. The banquet will be held on the evening of 29 November at the Cafe Royal. The price for the banquet is included in the delegate registration fee. Tickets for accompanying persons may be purchased (see the registration/accommodation form). The price for one ticket is UKL 45. The Cafe Royal is 100 metres from the Piccadilly Underground station in Regent Street. The Piccadilly station is on the Bakerloo Line which also passes through Paddington. From all the hotels travel from Paddington is recommended. Tutorial There will be a hands-on tutorial session on using the World Wide Web at the end of the conference, on Wednesday, 30 November 1994, from 14:00 to 18:00. The session will provide hands-on experience in accessing the Web using popular clients such as NCSA Mosaic. Participants will have the opportunity to explore some of the multimedia resources available on the Web and to use searching tools to discover new resources. Participants will also have the opportunity to create material on the World Wide Web. The number of participants is limited. The tutorial fee covers participation in the tutorial, printed materials and a coffee break. The tutorial fee is: EARLY Tutorial fee by 10 October UKL 40 (ca. ECU 50) LATE Tutorial fee by 10 November UKL 45 (ca. ECU 56) DESK Tutorial fee UKL 50 (ca. ECU 63) EARN and RARE Technical Meetings The following EARN and RARE meetings will be held in conjunction with the Conference. Meeting rooms will be located in the Great Western Royal. - Convened by EARN: Note that these meetings are by invitation only. Performance Evaluation Group (EARN-PEG): Wednesday, November 23 14:00 - 18:00 Routing Project Group (EARN-RPG): Thursday, November 24 9:00 - 18:00 Network Operations Group (EARN-NOG): Friday, November 25 9:00 - 18:00 Executive Committee: Sunday, November 27 14:00 - 18:00 Board of Directors: Wednesday, November 30 14:00 - 18:00 Thursday, December 1 9:00 - 16:00 - Convened by RARE: Note that these technical working groups are open to anyone willing to participate. 4th Framework & Telematics for Research (UPTURN) Wednesday, November 30 14:00 - 18:00 Lower Layer Technology (LLT) Thursday, December 1 9:00 - 13:00 Network Operations (NOP) Thursday, December 1 9:00 - 13:00 Information Services and User Support (ISUS) Thursday, December 1 9:00 - 18:00 Friday, December 2 9:00 - 18:00 - Convened by EARN & RARE: Note that this meeting is open. EARN Information Services (EARNINFO) & RARE Information Services and User Support (WG-ISUS): Thursday, December 1 9:00 - 18:00 How to reach the hotels >From Heathrow airport: There is a bus, The Heathrow Link, which stops outside the conference hotel. The cost is UKL 5. Approximately one hour travel time. By Underground, take the Piccadilly line to Gloucester Road and change to the Circle line which is on a different platform. The cost is UKL 3. Approximately 45 minutes travel time. By taxi the cost is UKL 35. Approximately 45 minutes travel time. >From Gatwick airport: There is a train from Gatwick to Victoria Station which takes 30 minutes. The cost is UKL 7.50 or UKL 8.50 by express. From Victoria Station take the Underground Circle line. There is very little car parking at the hotels and spaces should be reserved in advance with the hotels. Further Information and General Inquiry Further information will be available through the conference mailing list, NSC94-L@EARNCC.EARN.NET (or NSC94-L@EARNCC.BITNET). If you want to make sure you receive the preliminary program and other information of interest to conference participants, join the list by sending e-mail to: LISTSERV@EARNCC.EARN.NET (or LISTSERV@EARNCC.BITNET) with the line: SUB NSC94-L Your Name Conference information is also available from the EARN anonymous FTP server (ftp.earn.net), Gopher server (gopher.earn.net), and WWW server (http://www.earn.net/nsc94/nsc94.html). If you have any questions or require any assistance, you can contact the conference organizers at: NSC'94 EARN Office PSI - Batiment 211 91405 Orsay CEDEX FRANCE Tel: +33 1 6941 2426 Fax: +33 1 6941 6683 Internet: nsc94@earncc.earn.net EARN/BITNET: nsc94@earncc.bitnet The Network Services Conference 1994 is being organized by the EARN (European Academic and Research Network) Association in cooperation with the following organizations: Internet Society RARE RIPE NORDUnet EUnet Program Committee George Brett, USA (Chair); David Sitman, Israel (Vice-Chair); Rob Blokzijl, The Netherlands; Manfred Bogen, Germany; Paul Bryant, United Kingdom; Nadine Grange, France; Glenn Kowack, The Netherlands; Joyce K. Reynolds, USA; Jean Ritchie, United Kingdom; Eric Thomas, Sweden. Organizing Committee Paul Bryant, United Kingdom (Chair); Daniele Bovio, France; Nadine Grange, France; Frode Greisen, Denmark; David Sitman, Israel. ------------------ REGISTRATION/ACCOMMODATION FORM ----------------------------- NSC'94 The Network Services Conference 1994 London, United Kingdom, 28-30 November 1994 Please complete this form in block capitals and return it with your payment to: NSC'94 Conference Secretariat Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Chilton Didcot OX11 0QX UK Forms may be returned by fax to: +44 235 44 6665 or by electronic mail to: Internet: nsc94@rl.ac.uk EARN/BITNET: NSC94@UKACRL.BITNET Telephone enquiries: +44 235 44 6750 DELEGATE Family name ............................. First name .................... Mr/Mrs/Ms/Dr/Prof Organisation/Company: .......................................................... Mailing address: .......................................................... .......................................................... .......................................................... Country ................................................ Telephone .............................................. Facsimile (or Telex) ................................... E-mail ................................................. HOTEL RESERVATION Hotel costs will be paid on departure from the hotel. Hotel Single Double UKL per night UKL per night Great Western Royal 70 90 Pavillion 48 60 Henry VIII 48 60 Blakemore 36 48 All the hotels are within 10 minutes walking distance of the conference hotel. HOTEL PREFERRED: Please state preferred hotel: .............................. Second preference : .............................. Room (please mark one): O single O double Arrival date: .......... Departure date: ......... No. of nights ........... If possible I would like to stay at the same hotel as ................................................. O Please note that I am arranging my own accommodation. My conference address will be: ..................................... O Please state any dietary requirements.................. I will join the following EARN or RARE meetings, held in conjunction with the Conference: Convened by EARN: O EARN-PEG on 23 November afternoon O EARN-RPG on 24 November O EARN-NOG on 25 November O EARN-EXEC on 27 November afternoon O EARN-BoD on 30 November afternoon and 1 December morning O EARN-INFO on 1 December (joint session with RARE WG-ISUS) Convened by RARE: O UPTURN on 30 November afternoon O WG-NOP on 1 December morning O WG-LLT on 1 December Morning O WG-ISUS on 1 and 2 December ------------------------------ PAYMENTS ---------------------------------------- 1. REGISTRATION ONE Registration fee UKL ............. Early - by 10 October: UKL 220 Late - by 10 November: UKL 250 Desk: UKL 280 2. BANQUET .... Extra tickets for banquet on 29 November UKL ............. (Delegate free; Accompanying persons: UKL 45) 3. TUTORIAL ONE Tutorial fee UKL ............. Early - by 10 October: UKL 40 Late - by 10 November: UKL 45 Desk: UKL 50 ----------------- T O T A L UKL ............. O Credit card |__| VISA |__| MASTERCARD |__| EUROCARD I authorise payment of UKL .............to EPSRC Card No. .............................. expiry date ............... Holder's full name on card (PRINT) .................................... Holder's address .................................... .................................... .................................... .................................... Date ........................ Signature ....................... (Only for ordinary mail or fax) O I enclose an international cheque or bankers draft in pounds Sterling for the sum of UKL ............. payable to: EPSRC, Chilton, Didcot, OX11 0QX, UK. Please state on the cheque NSC'94 and the name(s) of the participant(s). O I wish to pay by bank transfer in UKL net of bank charges. Please state clearly "NSC'94" and the name of the participant on the transfer document. Transfers should be sent to: Lloyds Bank Didcot, Sort Code 30-93-93, Account number 0143698. From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 20 02:46:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id CAA28233; Tue, 20 Sep 1994 02:46:57 GMT Received: from iia.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA28227; Mon, 19 Sep 1994 19:46:50 -0700 Received: by iia.org id AA16751 user (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 19 Sep 1994 22:52:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 22:52:07 -0400 (EDT) From: jen sansbury To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: small list looking for a site Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk howdy! i'm currently operating a small list (about 50 subscribers right now) manually. it's gotten very tedious and i'm looking for a way to run it less primitively. i'd like to be able to run some type of list server which can be managed remotely. volume right now is very low (maybe one message every few days, which might increase slightly with a more efficient method of communicating). if anyone can help, please email me at: sansbuj@iia.org. much obliged! jen 'sorrow is an angel that comes to you in blue light and shows you what is wrong just to see if you'll set it right.' - poi From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 21 02:26:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id CAA08973; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 02:26:59 GMT Received: from prosun.first.gmd.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA08961; Tue, 20 Sep 1994 19:26:47 -0700 Received: from agni.gmd.de (agni.first.gmd.de) by prosun.first.gmd.de (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01168; Wed, 21 Sep 94 04:32:29 +0200 From: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski) Message-Id: <9409210232.AA01168@prosun.first.gmd.de> Subject: Strange address! To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 04:32:25 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1028 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a list with about 150 people. >From time to time there are some problems with this list. The most times they are with people which have an address like: dklann%heurikon.UUCP@cs.wisc.e (sorry dklann!!) Where might I read more about this kind of addresses? Or where is a digest of how to solve this problems. OK, if I had to do it I will read all about networks and their addresses. But I think that is not my job. I want to have a a list and some books where I could read about my problems. I don't want to get involved with all the networking problems that arise. But if someone say that it _IS_ my job when I have a mailing list, then I will do it. ( I know I asked for trouble when I establish my own list ) If you need more information, ask me! /gT/ -- Gerd Truschinski | INTERNET: gt@first.gmd.de c/o GMD-First Berlin | Yes, this is the sort of scenario I 12489 Berlin-Adlershof | think up to amuse myself in the evenings. Rudower Chausee 5 (13.7) | -- with confirmation from Larisa From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 21 04:32:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id KAA12012; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 10:07:45 GMT Received: from relay.surfnet.nl by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id DAA12006; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 03:07:36 -0700 Received: from erasmus.rare.nl by relay.surfnet.nl with SMTP (PP) id <23577-0@relay.surfnet.nl>; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:13:22 +0200 Received: by erasmus.rare.nl (5.65c/4.31) id AA24677; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:13:51 +0200 From: martin@rare.nl (John Martin) Message-Id: <199409211013.AA24677@erasmus.rare.nl> Subject: Re: Strange address! To: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 12:13:51 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9409210232.AA01168@prosun.first.gmd.de> from "Gerd Truschinski" at Sep 21, 94 04:32:25 am Organisation: RARE Address: Singel 466-468, NL-1017 AW Amsterdam Phone: +31 20 639 1131 (voice) +31 20 639 3289 (fax) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 697 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I have a list with about 150 people. > >From time to time there are some problems with this list. > The most times they are with people which have an address like: > dklann%heurikon.UUCP@cs.wisc.e (sorry dklann!!) > > Where might I read more about this kind of addresses? > Or where is a digest of how to solve this problems. Sorry, maybe I've missed something but whats the problem? For a description of RFC822 mail, see RFC822 from: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc822.txt or mail to mailserv@ds.internic.net with the following text ONLY in the body: send /rfc/rfc822.txt You might want to also look at rfc1123.txt - I'm sure others will suggest more. Hope this helps, John From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 21 15:13:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA15246; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 15:13:52 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id IAA15238; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 08:13:19 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id LAA04460; Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:16:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199409211516.LAA04460@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: gt@prosun.first.gmd.de (Gerd Truschinski) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Strange address! In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Sep 1994 04:32:25 +0200." <9409210232.AA01168@prosun.first.gmd.de> Date: Wed, 21 Sep 1994 11:16:39 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have a list with about 150 people. > From time to time there are some problems with this list. > The most times they are with people which have an address like: > dklann%heurikon.UUCP@cs.wisc.e (sorry dklann!!) > > Where might I read more about this kind of addresses? I'm not sure what you mean by "this kind" of address, but... at first glance, it looks like the address should really be: dklann%heurikon.UUCP@cs.wisc.edu ^^ That alone could explain why you are having problems. Actually, this is a fairly ordinary Internet address. The '%' on the left hand side of the '@' sign is a commonly-used convention for source routing -- if such a message were sent, it would first go to cs.wisc.edu, which would then relay the message to the address encoded on the left-hand side of the '@' sign. But the rules for interpreting addresses forbid anyone besides cs.wisc.edu from using the information on the left side of the '@' for routing. The host 'heurikon' is *probably* a UUCP node, and it might even be reachable from the Internet host cs.wisc.edu. On the other hand, addresses of the form user%node.uucp@domain or node!user@domain often occur because an Internet machine re-wrote the UUCP address node!user to make it legal for the Internet. (Internet standards require that all addresses conform to the local-part@domain syntax...for the exact grammar, see rfc 822.) But UUCP is a swamp. Messages originating from UUCP networks often have completely bogus header addresses such as 'node!user', where 'node' is not reachable by the UUCP->Internet gateway. So even though the Internet gateway rewrites the address into a form which is legal syntax for the Internet, any attempt to send mail to it will fail. Of course, some addresses of the form user%node.uucp@domain are perfectly legal. > Or where is a digest of how to solve this problems. In general, a list manager has only one reliable strategy to deal with bogus addresses: to delete any address for which mail bounces consistently. Even someone with considerable e-mail expertise will end up doing this most of the time. There are odd cases where it is possible to recognize the problem and fix it, but this is the rare exception rather than the rule. > OK, if I had to do it I will read all about networks and their > addresses. But I think that is not my job. I want to have a > a list and some books where I could read about my problems. You could read up on the email standards, but this wouldn't help you solve this kind of problem. The kind of information you need isn't written down anywhere that I know of, and even if it were, it is continually changing. Good luck Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 23 02:02:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id CAA29775; Fri, 23 Sep 1994 02:02:34 GMT Received: from newhamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA29769; Thu, 22 Sep 1994 19:02:24 -0700 Received: from [192.33.12.82] (mac82.hampshire.edu) by newhamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24897; Thu, 22 Sep 94 22:08:45 EDT Date: Thu, 22 Sep 94 22:08:40 EDT Message-Id: <9409230208.AA24897@newhamp.hampshire.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mpmNS@newhamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #168 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: >In general, a list manager has only one reliable strategy >to deal with bogus addresses: to delete any address >for which mail bounces consistently. Even someone with >considerable e-mail expertise will end up doing this most >of the time. There are odd cases where it is possible >to recognize the problem and fix it, but this is the >rare exception rather than the rule. What I do is simply remove the address. If the person wants to be on the list, they will write me and say "I haven't been getting mail from the * list." Then usually the two of us, sometimes including their host postmaster comes up with a strategy to get them on the list w/o bounces. Michelle -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Michelle Murrain School of Natural Science Hampshire College, Amherst, MA 01002 mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 24 11:15:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id LAA14872; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 11:15:49 GMT Received: from acpub.duke.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id EAA14866; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 04:15:41 -0700 Received: from raphael.acpub.duke.edu (raphael.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.102.1]) by acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) with SMTP id HAA19508; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 07:21:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 07:21:34 -0400 (EDT) From: John Younger Subject: citations/copyrights of ... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: cni-copyright@cni.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Friends! I have a question, which probably your lists have an already composed answer for. I manage a list on pre-classical Greek matters, with a subscription of about 400 members (say 50 communicate regularly, another 100 occasionally, the rest lurkers), mostly professional. The list is young, barely 9 monsths old. Some of the professional archaeologists have become concerned that their comments on the net will be cited in published (i.e., written in journals, etc.) articles. And others have become concerned that their comments will be plagiarized by others without citation, or will be taken as fact without verifying. To the last two concerns, I have written, that, as in life, there's little one can do to protect one's ideas from being taken literally and from just being taken. As to the first concern, I (and other list-managers in this general field of classical studies) have offered a citation-formula (e.g., "I am indebted for this idea to So-and-so, LIST, Date). But many subscribers have assumed that e-mail discussion groups were like a bunch of guys (yes, I am aware of the male-stereotype here, though they were not) standing around a bar just shootin' the breeze, without any responsibility for their tongues waggin' and nary a thought about their audience. When I told these naives that they were 'talking' to 400 people, most of whom they had no clue about (and, I might add here, some of the 'lurkers' are important & powerful [= wealthy philanthropists who give lots of money to fund these naives's projects]), they started spluttering at first and now have succumbed to humble & watchful silence. So, my questions are: are e-mail discussions like published comments? what is an accepted way to cite them? are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? I & my colleague list-managers will be grateful for any help in this thorny area. Please reply off-list, since I'm not a subscriber. Many thanks, John Younger (jyounger@acpub.duke.edu) From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 24 14:56:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA15639; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 14:56:48 GMT Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id HAA15633; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 07:56:41 -0700 Received: from centhub (centhub.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00479 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 09:02:35 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.930405) Received: from nmastaff.eleven by nmamail (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17453; Sat, 24 Sep 94 09:02:28 MDT Received: from [151.119.7.35] (remote1) by nmastaff.eleven (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03816; Sat, 24 Sep 94 09:02:23 MDT Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 09:02:22 MDT Message-Id: <9409241502.AA03816@nmastaff.eleven> X-Sender: wgaspar@nmastaff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LIST-MANAGERS-DIGEST@greatcircle.com From: wgaspar@nma.mnet.uswest.com (Warren Gaspar) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subsrcribe Warren Gaspar wgaspar@nma.mnet.uswest.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 25 02:53:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id CAA18508; Sun, 25 Sep 1994 02:53:57 GMT Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id TAA18502; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 19:53:50 -0700 Received: from centhub (centhub.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05446 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 1994 20:59:47 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.930405) Received: from nmastaff.eleven by nmamail (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26074; Sat, 24 Sep 94 20:59:32 MDT Received: from [151.119.7.35] (remote1) by nmastaff.eleven (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04420; Sat, 24 Sep 94 20:59:30 MDT Date: Sat, 24 Sep 94 20:59:29 MDT Message-Id: <9409250259.AA04420@nmastaff.eleven> X-Sender: wgaspar@nmastaff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LIST-MANAGERS-DIGEST@greatcircle.com From: wgaspar@nma.mnet.uswest.com (Warren Gaspar) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk longindex Warren Gaspar wgaspar@nma.mnet.uswest.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 26 15:44:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id PAA00600; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 15:44:25 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.esl.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id IAA00593; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 08:44:04 -0700 Received: from smtp.esl.com (smtpout.esl.com) by gatekeeper.esl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17797; Mon, 26 Sep 94 08:43:15 PDT Message-Id: Date: 26 Sep 1994 08:40:32 -0700 From: "John Carr" Subject: getting list mgrs attention To: "list-managers" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.1 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As postmaster for the primary mail exchanger for our domain, I get cc'ed on all mail bounces. I have (had?) a user who left our company without unsubscribing to a variety of mailing lists and that traffic is now bouncing as unknown user mail should. The problem is that the list mgr doesn't seem particularly interested in removing the user. I've tried messages to the errors-to address and to postmaster & root at the sending nodes to no avail. The header of a sample message is: Received: by smtp.esl.com with SMTP;26 Sep 1994 01:29:27 -0700 Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by gatekeeper.esl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11245; Mon, 26 Sep 94 01:29:23 PDT Errors-To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org Received: from LEX-LUTHOR.AI.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for xxx_xxx@smtp.esl.com id AA03589; Fri, 23 Sep 94 19:01:10 EDT Received: from OMEGA.AI.MIT.EDU by LEX-LUTHOR.AI.MIT.EDU via INTERNET with SMTP id 419203; 22 Sep 1994 20:53:30-0400 Errors-To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org Delivered-By-The-Graces-Of: The Clinton-Info Program Precedence: Bulk To: Clinton-News-Distribution@campaign92.org, Clinton-Economy-Distribution@campaign92.org Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 20:53-0400 From: The White House Reply-To: Clinton-Info@campaign92.org Message-Id: <19940923005335.9.MAIL-SERVER@OMEGA.AI.MIT.EDU> One problem seems to be TWO errors-to lines. When the bounce msg is generated, it goes to: To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org, Mail-Server@campaign92.org and they choke on that: Connected to lex-luthor.ai.mit.edu: >>> RCPT To: <<< 501 Bad forward path: More than one address in .. 554 ... Remote protocol error Any suggestions how to get his attention? From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 26 18:28:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id SAA02249; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 18:28:21 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id LAA02240; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 11:27:42 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA12234; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 14:25:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199409261825.OAA12234@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: "John Carr" cc: "list-managers" , moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: getting list mgrs attention In-reply-to: Your message of "26 Sep 1994 08:40:32 PDT." Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 14:25:11 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I've tried messages to the > errors-to address and to postmaster & root at the sending nodes to no avail. > > The header of a sample message is: > > Received: by smtp.esl.com with SMTP;26 Sep 1994 01:29:27 -0700 > Received: from life.ai.mit.edu by gatekeeper.esl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA11245; Mon, 26 Sep 94 01:29:23 PDT > Errors-To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org > Received: from LEX-LUTHOR.AI.MIT.EDU by life.ai.mit.edu (4.1/AI-4.10) for > xxx_xxx@smtp.esl.com id AA03589; Fri, 23 Sep 94 19:01:10 EDT > Received: from OMEGA.AI.MIT.EDU by LEX-LUTHOR.AI.MIT.EDU via INTERNET with > SMTP id 419203; 22 Sep 1994 20:53:30-0400 > Errors-To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org > Delivered-By-The-Graces-Of: The Clinton-Info Program > Precedence: Bulk > To: Clinton-News-Distribution@campaign92.org, > Clinton-Economy-Distribution@campaign92.org > Date: Thu, 22 Sep 1994 20:53-0400 > From: The White House > Reply-To: Clinton-Info@campaign92.org > Message-Id: <19940923005335.9.MAIL-SERVER@OMEGA.AI.MIT.EDU> > > One problem seems to be TWO errors-to lines. When the bounce msg is > generated, it goes to: > > To: Mail-Server@campaign92.org, Mail-Server@campaign92.org > > and they choke on that: > > Connected to lex-luthor.ai.mit.edu: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 501 Bad forward path: More than one address in > .. > 554 ... Remote > protocol error First of all, fix your mailer! It should not be sending bounce messages to the errors-to line, it should be sending them to the return address from the SMTP envelope! Errors-to is not only non-standard, it is broken (as you have discovered). If mailing to mail-server@campaign92.org doesn't work, try mailing to postmaster@campaign92.org, or postmaster@lex-luthor.ai.mit.edu. (gee, how appropriate :) Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 26 20:49:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id UAA03953; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 20:49:24 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id NAA03938; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 13:48:49 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA07064 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 26 Sep 1994 16:48:10 -0400 Message-Id: <199409262048.AA07064@cs.umb.edu> To: John Younger Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: citations/copyrights of ... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Sep 1994 07:21:34 EDT." Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 16:47:59 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , John Younger writes: >Some of the professional archaeologists have become concerned that their >comments on the net will be cited in published (i.e., written in journals, >etc.) articles. And others have become concerned that their comments >will be plagiarized by others without citation, or will be taken as fact >without verifying. >[...] >As to the first concern, I (and other list-managers in this general field >of classical studies) have offered a citation-formula (e.g., "I am >indebted for this idea to So-and-so, LIST, Date). > >But many subscribers have assumed that e-mail discussion groups were like >a bunch of guys (yes, I am aware of the male-stereotype here, though >they were not) standing around a bar just shootin' the breeze, without >any responsibility for their tongues waggin' and nary a thought about >their audience. When I told these naives that they were 'talking' to 400 >people, most of whom they had no clue about (and, I might add here, some >of the 'lurkers' are important & powerful [= wealthy philanthropists who >give lots of money to fund these naives's projects]), they started >spluttering at first and now have succumbed to humble & watchful silence. > >So, my questions are: > are e-mail discussions like published comments? Your question is a bit of a red herring. The question should be: can something I say/write be cited Arguably yes. For example I can cite personnel letters (email or US mail) sent to me in articles. I can also cite discussions (whether they be in a bar or not). Also, I can cite talks/presentations in my papers. I think all aspects of citing email list traffic are covered under one of the above citation issues. > what is an accepted way to cite them? Check out the American Library Association citation standards manual (I think that is it. Ask a local reference librarian). I would follow the cite format for private letters, or a conversation. One that I have seen looks like: Rouillard, John P., "Re: citations/copyrights of ...", via electronic mail on the mailing list, 16:44EDT, September 26, 1994. Some of them have the email message id in place of the time stamp. The problem with email is that a simple date identifier may not be sufficient to distinguish a given message. > are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? You can put a copyright in your message, but I am not sure what rules pertain in the absense of a copyright message. Then again, I am not positive that the copyright message is necessarily binding. > is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? I would think that slander laws etc still apply. I can't cite any case references, but I see no reason they shouldn't apply to this email media as well as to other print media. That said, others are generally forgiving of gaffe's in logic etc since most people don't provide as much though to an email message as they would to a published article. -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-1576 x225 Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 =============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 26 15:37:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id VAA04483; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 21:38:42 GMT Received: from vector.casti.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id OAA04473; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 14:38:27 -0700 Received: by vector.casti.com (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA01544; Mon, 26 Sep 94 17:37:23 -0400 Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 17:34:55 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: "John P. Rouillard" Cc: John Younger , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: citations/copyrights of ... In-Reply-To: <199409262048.AA07064@cs.umb.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 26 Sep 1994, John P. Rouillard wrote: > > what is an accepted way to cite them? > > Check out the American Library Association citation standards manual > (I think that is it. Ask a local reference librarian). I would follow > the cite format for private letters, or a conversation. One that I > have seen looks like: > > Rouillard, John P., "Re: citations/copyrights of ...", via > electronic mail on the mailing list, 16:44EDT, > September 26, 1994. > > Some of them have the email message id in place of the time > stamp. The problem with email is that a simple date identifier may not > be sufficient to distinguish a given message. I would tend to encourage using a Message-ID as well, as that field is known to be unique for each mailer. Additionally, I've heard from people who wanted me to write a routine that paginated their list traffic. Evidently someone wanted to cite an electronic journal and was told that such a citation would only be acceptable if they could give a volume, issue, and page number. > > are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? > > You can put a copyright in your message, but I am not sure what rules > pertain in the absense of a copyright message. Then again, I am not > positive that the copyright message is necessarily binding. The truth of the matter is that *no one* knows. There are a lot of people who have shared a lot of speculation on this topic, but until a case arrives in front of a judge somewhere -- there is no case law on this matter. David. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 26 23:53:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id XAA05456; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 23:53:08 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.esl.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940829) id QAA05450; Mon, 26 Sep 1994 16:52:59 -0700 Received: from smtp.esl.com (smtpout.esl.com) by gatekeeper.esl.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01098; Mon, 26 Sep 94 16:51:23 PDT Message-Id: Date: 26 Sep 1994 16:48:10 -0700 From: "John Carr" Subject: Re: getting list mgrs atten To: "Keith Moore" Cc: "list-managers" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.1 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reply to: RE>>getting list mgrs attention > First of all, fix your mailer! It should not be sending bounce messages to > the errors-to line, it should be sending them to the return address from the > SMTP envelope! Errors-to is not only non-s