From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 11:58:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA18117 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:53:48 -0800 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id WAA06808 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 1995 22:55:20 -0800 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id BAA19696; Mon, 30 Jan 1995 01:52:59 -0500 Date: 30 Jan 95 01:50:44 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: Final questions Message-ID: <950130065043_70611.410_FHG29-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, Tim Miller here. I almost understand this, now, thanks to the generous help of a number of people. (And a little homework on my own.) One or two (well, OK, three) final questions: 1--Let's say I set up a Majordomo list on Jazzie Systems, for example. I do not immediately register my domain name. Now let's say it looks like Jazzie Systems is going to go bankrupt (God forbid). Presumably I would have some warning. Would it be possible to register a domain name and alias at that time? 2--Is there normally a setup charge and/or monthly fee for registering a domain name and/or alias? 3--Can someone tell me the address I would use to subscribe to the LISTSERV managers' list? (I think it's called listserv-l or something like that.) Thanks a bunch, Tim Miller From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 15:56:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA28778 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:41:40 -0800 Received: from jazzie.com (NS1.JAZZIE.COM [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA28757 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:41:34 -0800 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0raB6f-000OWhC; Thu, 2 Feb 95 15:38 PST Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: Re: Final questions To: 70611.410@compuserve.com (Tim Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:38:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <950130065043_70611.410_FHG29-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Tim Miller" at Jan 30, 95 01:50:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1755 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller wrote: > Now let's say it looks like Jazzie > Systems is going to go bankrupt (God forbid). Thanks for using me in your example, though in good conscience I feel the need to respond. ;-) IMHO organizations become bankrupt solely through poor financial management; bankruptcy is a highly unlikely outcome for Jazzie Systems. You do raise an important point, though, if you mean to ask what happens when a provider goes out of business (or declines to continue providing service for some other reason). If you plan ahead, it will be easy for you to switch providers at any time. When you register the domain, specify yourself as the administrative contact. That way you can notify the Internic yourself if you ever switch service providers. > Would it be possible to register a domain name and alias at that > time? It is always possible to register a domain name through the Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, so again it makes sense to plan ahead! > Is there normally a setup charge and/or monthly fee for > registering a domain name and/or alias? The registration is free. At the time of registration you specify who will (initially, at least) be providing name service for the domain. Some providers bundle this service as part of an overall package; others (like Jazzie Systems) provide it cafeteria-style. You could for example have one provider's nameservers publish an "MX" record that sends mail for your domain to some other provider's mail server. (Assuming both providers agree to this scheme!) -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com (206) 443-2028 Jazzie Systems From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 16:26:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 4 19:49:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA29536 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:22:21 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA07435 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:59:10 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id RAA04798; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:56:41 -0500 Date: 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: list managers list Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, Tim Miller here. Thanks for all your help. Maybe now I can be of help to some of you. I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather inactive list that runs on The World. I presume this is not supposed to happen. I also presume it may not be entirely clear why it is happening, and that some listowners or listmasters might be interested in figuring it out. (It might have something to do with compuserve, which is where I presently--and much too expensively--receive my email.) I chose a message from Brian as an example, because it was short. I've included the header information for both messages. The first message is shown as having been sent on 2/2/95 at 4:17 PM and received at 9:03 PM. The second was "sent" at 4:36 PM and also arrived at 9:03 PM, same date. Best regards, Tim Miller Sender: brian@hyperreal.com Received: from get.wired.com by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA22220; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:11:26 -0500 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian **************************************************************** Sender: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Received: from relay2.UU.NET by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24271; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:34:43 -0500 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQybkk23604; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:33:32 -0500 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 04:19:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA03457 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:08:54 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (root@europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03452 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:08:51 -0800 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA09190; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:06:58 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11577; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:07:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:07:29 +0001 (EST) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> Cc: list managers list In-Reply-To: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sure will be *very* interested to know the answer to this one. I have two majordomo lists on the world, and get complaints about the duplicate messages all the time. I'm not the most technical person, so I won't have the answer, but I sure will appreciate it being figured out and cleared up. -Sharon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharon Shea Email:sshea@world.std.com PMPY Communications 72700.557@compuserve.com P.O. Box 79226 Phone:617-782-3226 Waverley, MA 02179 Fax:617-783-9181 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 05:19:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA03601 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:04 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03596 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:01 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id EAA09768; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:46:30 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:03 -0800 To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages Cc: list managers list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:55 pm 2/3/95, Tim Miller wrote: >I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in >pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. [elided] >From: Brian Behlendorf >To: Sean Shapira >cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Tim, unless I'm much mistaken, you received two copies of this mail because one was sent directly to you via cc and the other reached you because you're also subscribed to the list to which it was also cc'd. You should get two copies of this msg too, because I'm cc-ing the list and sending it to you directly. Make sense? dave From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 08:19:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA04235 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:02:16 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA04230 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:02:13 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA13018; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 10:59:05 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502051559.AA13018@imsworld.com> Subject: Incorrect address To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 10:59:05 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What is the best way to handle incorrect address that a mailing list accumulates. Currently every message that gets sent out sends an error to the list-owner and the postmaster. Is there a way to not send the errors to the postmaster? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 13:20:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA06383 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:09:29 -0800 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA06378 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:09:25 -0800 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id QAA16970; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:07:05 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 95 16:02:35 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950205210234_70611.410_FHG60-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller here. I got two copies of Sharon Shea's message, two copies of Dave Del Torto's message and one copy of Norm Aleks' message. Scrutiny of Sharon's headers suggest she sent the original to me with a cc to the list. My guess is that a lot of majordomo users are sending ccs to the recipient. Some may be doing it intentionally, others unintentionally. It might be that some email programs make it easy to do it unintentionally. If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us all some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the internet that explains headers. Maybe someone should forward it to the list. Cheers, Tim From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 15:19:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA09133 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:09:37 -0800 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03513 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:24:43 -0800 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:50 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199502051222.24614.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> (message from Tim Miller on 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST) Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Tim Miller] | I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers | list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also | occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather | inactive list that runs on The World. : | From: Brian Behlendorf | To: Sean Shapira | cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM If you think about it (or study the headers), you'll realize the "problem" is at hyperreal.com. The mailer will send one mail to Sean Shapira, one to Tim Miller and one to the list. To hyperreal, the list is just another personal mail box. There are two ways of solving this. (Majordomo is just an example name for the software.) The mailer at hyperreal could ask greatcircle.com for the complete list of addresses on the list-managers list. This will work for this list, but others have "secret" membership. Anyway, lets say you got your list and removed dupes. Then your mail host would have to assume of Majordomo and send copies to everyone on the list. (Probably would cost you more money on CompuServe.) Majordomo would now just be a supplier of the mailing list, and the administrator would have problems because all the bounces went to the poster, not the Majordomo software. The second way makes more sense: Majordomo could be clever enough to parse the headers and see who would receive a direct copy, and remove the recipients from its internal list. Kjetil T. PS. There is an option to Sendmail to suppress duplicate mail, but naturally, that will only work locally. Ie. if Brent Chapman (@greatcircle.com) posts something to list-managers, no one should get more than one copy. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 15:21:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA08874 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:02:12 -0800 Received: from necco.cs.UMD.EDU (necco.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA08869 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:02:09 -0800 Received: by necco.cs.UMD.EDU (8.6.9/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id SAA05330; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:00:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199502052300.SAA05330@necco.cs.UMD.EDU> To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> cc: List-managers Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages In-reply-to: Your message of "05 Feb 1995 16:02:35 EST." <950205210234_70611.410_FHG60-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 05 Feb 1995 18:00:15 -0500 From: Dabe "Dabe" Murphy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, Feb 5, 70611.410@compuserve.com writes: > > My guess is that a lot of majordomo users are sending ccs to the recipient. > Some may be doing it intentionally, others unintentionally. It might be that > some email programs make it easy to do it unintentionally. More often than not, an MUA (Mail User Agent, such as 'Mail', 'pine', whatever CompuServe uses, etc... The program that actually lets a user read his/her mail) cannot differentiate between a mailing list and an individual user. Take this message, for example. When I received it it was "From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>" and "To: List-managers " When I reply, my mail reader won't know if "Tim Miller" happens to be a subscriber to "List-managers" or not so it will send the message "To: Tim Miller" and cc: a copy to "List-managers". If the software running List-managers (majordomo, in this case) were set up to do so, it could decide that when going through the list of people to whom it should resend the message (Those people subscribed to the List-managers list), it should skip Tim Miller. As a list manager myself, I don't know whether I'd choose this behavior or not. My personal belief is that the server shouldn't make these judgements; the user should have the ability to edit the To: and Cc: fields to fit his tastes (Berkeley Mail, for example, makes it difficult to REMOVE someone from the To: field of your message. I just now found the ~h escape in the manpage for the first time. I wonder what other esoteric features I've missed :-) ) I HAVE, however, kicked around the idea of incorporating a duplicate removal option into my own homebrew mailing list software. I'm just too lazy to add the 7 lines of perl code necessary :-) > If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us > all some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the > internet that explains headers. RFC 822. It's how mail is written. (Boy, I should be in Marketing) > Maybe someone should forward it to the list. It's almost 3k lines long, so I doubt everybody'll want to get a copy. Instead, if you can FTP, fetch: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc822.txt If you can't use FTP for whatever reason, lemme know and I'll be happy to forward you a copy via private email. As a warning, it's pretty long and technical, but it needs to be. It defines a standard that's been around more than 12 years, and is still going strong. (As an aside, it's counterpart, RFC 821 describes SMTP, the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol. Together, these documents tell you more than you could EVER want to know about Internet mail (Short of knowing how to read sendmail.cf's, which I don't think ANYBODY can do ;-) ) Dabe -- dabe@cs.umd.edu | Bummed is what you are | Just because I agree with | When you go out to your | everything my boss says Hi Charlie | Car and it's been towed. | doesn't mean he agrees Finger for PGP 2.6 Key | "Contact" - Phish | with everything I say. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 16:19:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA10641 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:10:31 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA10636 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:10:28 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24086; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 19:08:08 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 95 19:06:29 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950206000628_70611.410_FHG64-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller here, It hadn't occurred to me that subscribers are only getting duplicate messages when they are receiving a reply to a previously posted message. However, as I reflect upon it, that is indeed what is going on. In that case, it's probably not worth bothering with. Cheers From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 16:49:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA10919 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:22:11 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA10914 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:22:08 -0800 Received: from postmodern.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQybvl16955; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 19:20:15 -0500 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/GCA-Makitso-941228-mcb1) id AA27646; Sun, 5 Feb 95 16:14:49 PST Message-Id: <9502060014.AA27646@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:14:48 -0800 In-Reply-To: <199502051222.24614.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages content-length: 1080 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > PS. There is an option to Sendmail to suppress duplicate mail, but > naturally, that will only work locally. Ie. if Brent Chapman > (@greatcircle.com) posts something to list-managers, no one should get > more than one copy. Well, actually this won't usually work when you are using mailing list software. The sendmail duplicate-suppression can only work when the actual addresses are available to sendmail at the time of alias expansion (i.e., direct aliases from the aliases file, or ":include:" list expansion). Typically, with mailing list software, the list alias will resolve to sendmail's "prog" mailer, since it is a pipe to a program (like Majordomo's "resend" script) that modifies headers, etc. By the time that program has done whatever it does and then re-invokes sendmail to expand the actual list and deliver the messages, the first copy of the message (the one with the individual address in the "To:" line) has already been delivered (or at least separately queued). -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 00:49:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id AAA18517 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:29:59 -0800 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id AAA18512 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:29:53 -0800 Received: from pb (pb.insite.co.uk [192.168.0.20]) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07210 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:22:25 GMT Received: by Local host with Microsoft Mail id <01B9D59B.95CA2760@Local host>; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:28:13 -0000 Message-ID: <01B9D59B.95CA2760@Local host> From: Peter Bowyer To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: List-Managers-Digest V4 #14 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:28:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Umm.. Am I missing the point, or.... The message is 'cc'd to your address, as well as being 'To' the list address. SO assuming you're sub'ed to the list, you will get 2 copies..... Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> Date: 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Greetings, Tim Miller here. Thanks for all your help. Maybe now I can be of help to some of you. I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather inactive list that runs on The World. I presume this is not supposed to happen. I also presume it may not be entirely clear why it is happening, and that some listowners or listmasters might be interested in figuring it out. (It might have something to do with compuserve, which is where I presently--and much too expensively--receive my email.) I chose a message from Brian as an example, because it was short. I've included the header information for both messages. The first message is shown as having been sent on 2/2/95 at 4:17 PM and received at 9:03 PM. The second was "sent" at 4:36 PM and also arrived at 9:03 PM, same date. Best regards, Tim Miller Sender: brian@hyperreal.com Received: from get.wired.com by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA22220; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:11:26 -0500 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian **************************************************************** Sender: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Received: from relay2.UU.NET by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24271; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:34:43 -0500 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQybkk23604; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:33:32 -0500 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian ------------------------------ End of List-Managers-Digest V4 #14 ********************************** To unsubscribe from List-Managers-Digest, send the following command in the body of a message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": unsubscribe list-managers-digest If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the command; for example, to subscribe "local-list-managers": subscribe list-managers-digest local-list-managers@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "list-managers-digest" in the commands above with "list-managers". Compressed back issues are available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM, in pub/list-managers/digest/vNN.nMMM.Z (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 04:49:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA22708 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:34:24 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA22703 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:34:21 -0800 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA02784; Mon, 6 Feb 95 07:32:25 EST Message-Id: <9502061232.AA02784@ig1.att.att.com> From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:21 EST Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> > If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us all > some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the internet > that explains headers. Maybe someone should forward it to the list. Aside from the RFCs, which (as, Dabe "Dabe" Murphy pointed out, can be found in places such as ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc822.txt), your local bookstore may have a few new books on the subject. Anyone want to recommend one? If you have questions, and access to Netnews, comp.mail.headers is a good place hang out at. Paul S. R. Chisholm PersonaLink is a service psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ mark of AT&T AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services Paul_Chisholm@attpls.net I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 07:19:17 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA27501 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:08:56 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA27496 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:08:53 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16521; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:05:46 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502061505.AA16521@imsworld.com> Subject: Checking validity of e-mail addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:05:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sendmail has an option to see whether an address is deliverable or not. I was wondering if someone has incoroprated this into majordomo. I am getting people that are able to trick majordomo and end up subscribing addresses that don't exist. I then get an unknown host message delivered to both the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 07:49:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA27871 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:37:41 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA27866 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:37:36 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16729; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:34:29 -0500 From: root@imsworld.com (IMS Super User) Message-Id: <9502061534.AA16729@imsworld.com> Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:34:29 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone please tell me what I have set wrong. It always sends the errors to postmaster and the owner. Here is what it send to the postmaster. Forwarded message: > From majordomo Mon Feb 6 10:31 EST 1995 > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:39 -0500 > From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem) > Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown > Message-Id: <9502061521.AA16633@imsworld.com> > To: Postmaster > Content-Type: text > Content-Length: 885 > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 421 Host albnyvms.bitnet not found for mailer ddn. > 550 DR8192@ALBNYVMS.BITNET... Host unknown > > ----- Message header follows ----- > Return-Path: > Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AA16613; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:39 -0500 > Errors-To: mshavel > Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AA16607; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:34 -0500 > Received: from apollo.cs.utwente.nl by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (5.0/csrelayMX-SVR4_1.0/RB) > id AA02472; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:22:48 --100 > Received: from duvel.cs.utwente.nl by apollo.cs.utwente.nl (4.1/RBCS-2.1) > id AA12071; Mon, 6 Feb 95 16:22:46 +0100 > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 16:22:46 +0100 > From: vraalte@cs.utwente.nl (Frank van Raalte) > Message-Id: <9502061522.AA12071@apollo.cs.utwente.nl> > To: photo@imsworld.com > Subject: darkroom setup > Sender: owner-photo > Precedence: bulk > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 20:19:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA11983 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:57:28 -0800 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-2.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA11969; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:57:12 -0800 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:55:16 -0500 To: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:05 2/6/95, Bradley Birnbaum wrote: >Sendmail has an option to see whether an address is deliverable or not. I was >wondering if someone has incoroprated this into majordomo. I am getting >people that are able to trick majordomo and end up subscribing addresses >that don't exist. First off, a reminder: List-Managers is for general list management issues; questions about a particular list management package (including Majordomo) should be addressed to the appropriate package-specific list (in this case, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Now, since this is a somewhat generic question, even though it's phrased in terms of Majordomo, I'll go ahead and answer it here. All Sendmail can really check is whether or not it can get rid of the message, not whether or not the message will get to its recipient; in other words, sendmail can only check the next link in the chain between it and the recipient. The test you're asking for wouldn't detect problems at some point past that next link, so the test has only limited value. I doubt anything like this will ever be added to Majordomo, because it would make Majordomo more Sendmail-specific, and a lot of people have been putting in a lot of work to try to make Majordomo _less_ Sendmail-specific. >I then get an unknown host message delivered to both >the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail >being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. That's easy: set up an alias like so: owner-list: list-owner, If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in Sendmail. -Brent -- == For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule == == of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM == ============================================================================== == Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates == == Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street == == +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 == From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 04:19:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA20689 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:53:10 -0800 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA20684 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:52:59 -0800 Received: from pb (pb.insite.co.uk [192.168.0.20]) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09852 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:45:27 GMT Received: by Local host with Microsoft Mail id <01B9D681.1EEEEFE0@Local host>; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:18 -0000 Message-ID: <01B9D681.1EEEEFE0@Local host> From: Peter Bowyer To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd add to Brent's answer that there's an option in Sendmail 8.6.9 (and maybe in other versions, I don't know) to send a copy of *all* errors to someone (eg to Postmaster) - from sendmail.cf: # who (if anyone) should get extra copies of error messages OPPostmaster Maybe this is contributing to the problem? Regards Peter -- Peter Bowyer peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk ----- From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses >I then get an unknown host message delivered to both >the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail >being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. That's easy: set up an alias like so: owner-list: list-owner, If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in Sendmail. - -Brent From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 05:49:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id FAA21693 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 05:43:30 -0800 Received: from sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA21688; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 05:43:22 -0800 Received: (from de5@localhost) by sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA07359; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:41:28 GMT Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:41:28 GMT From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199502071341.NAA07359@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM Version 5.72.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.11 XEmacs Lucid of Sat Sep 10 1994 on liasg5 (irix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >That's easy: set up an alias like so: > > owner-list: list-owner, > >If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, >Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at >the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in >Sendmail. Which bug/feature is that? I don't have trailing commas on any of my aliases, and everything seems to work OK. Am I missing something? -Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 13:20:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA26097 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:00:26 -0800 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA26092 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:00:22 -0800 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id VAA01366; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:58:34 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA24293; Tue, 7 Feb 95 21:58:32 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 21:58:32 +0100 From: Per Starback Message-Id: <9502072058.AA24293@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing lists mentioned in books Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When I get subscription requests for the mailing list I administrate sent to the list instead of the administrative address I ask the new subscribers where they got information on the list, as I want to identify sources that mention the list address instead of the administrative address and try to get them changed. I often have a hard time to get that information from those new subscribers. If they answer my question at all they often just say that it was in a file they found or some book. Sometimes I get to know the title of the book. What I really want is an email address to the authors of the files or books so I can inform them that the information they provide isn't accurate or (perhaps more common) it is accurate, but it confuses newcomers. For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and the administrative address in those books. Many people who get their information from those books are absolute beginners vis-a-vis mailing lists and are bound to confuse the two addresses if given both of them. And I don't blaim them, because it *is* confusing for beginners. Instead I blaim the books that print that information, as I see no reason to give anything but the administrative message there anyway. Do those books mention email addresses of the authors? In case there will be future editions I may want to have my say. What books are there? Two that recent subscribers of my list have used are * The Complete Internet Reference by Harley Hahn and Rick Stout * Internet Yellow Pages Does anyone know of any email addresses to use for those books? Is it useless to bother about this? -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 19:49:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA02101 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:45:24 -0800 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-2.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA02096; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:45:14 -0800 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:43:19 -0500 To: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 13:40 2/7/95, Stephen R. van den Berg wrote: >>That's easy: set up an alias like so: >> >> owner-list: list-owner, >> >>If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, >>Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at >>the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in >>Sendmail. > >What kind of "feature" is this? If you leave off the comma, it sets the SMTP envelope sender (the "From " line) to "list-owner" (the alias expansion of "owner-list"), rather than simply "owner-list". Not a big deal, and maybe even a feature, in this case; in others, however, for instance if the alias expansion is an individual's email address, it can be a problem. Only some versions of Sendmail do this, though I don't know exactly which ones. -Brent -- == For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule == == of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM == ============================================================================== == Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates == == Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street == == +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 == From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 20:49:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA02631 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:36:19 -0800 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id UAA02626 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:36:16 -0800 Received: from [166.84.247.160] (gbs.dialup.access.net) by panix.com with SMTP id AA27484 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:34:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199502080434.AA27484@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:37:05 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Harris-Braun) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >When I get subscription requests for the mailing list I administrate >sent to the list instead of the administrative address I ask the new >subscribers where they got information on the list, as I want to >identify sources that mention the list address instead of the >administrative address and try to get them changed. ... >For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and >the administrative address in those books. In "The Internet Directory" I did not print the list address, only subscription and contact addresses. Savvy users of course know that the list name followed by the domain-name of the subscription address is usually the posting address, but I don't mention that anywhere precisely to not cause the problems you write of. >Do those books mention email addresses of the authors? In case there >will be future editions I may want to have my say. What books are >there? >* The Complete Internet Reference by Harley Hahn and Rick Stout > >* Internet Yellow Pages > >Does anyone know of any email addresses to use for those books? Hahn & Stout's Yellow pages address is: catalog@rain.com >Is it useless to bother about this? >From my point of view, absolutely not. Any corrections and suggestions are more than welcome. I've been a long time lurker on this list just to gather info on what bothers list owners so that my book adds as little as possible to their troubles. Please send corrections for my book (The Internet Directory) to: directory@glassbead.com -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Harris-Braun gbs@panix.com The Internet Directory directory@glassbead.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 03:49:19 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA05927 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 03:47:34 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id DAA05922 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 03:47:25 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA11597 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:32:34 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12982; 8 Feb 95 05:05:12 CST (Wed) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id FAA12979 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:05:12 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502081105.FAA12979@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Mailing lists mentioned in books To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:05:12 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1985 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per Starback: > For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and > the administrative address in those books. On ongoing struggle I've been having. You mentioned the Internet Yellow Pages, I surmise you're talking about the Rider Internet Yellow Pages. I literally hit the roof when it came out because I gave them permission to use the PAML, but I certainly didn't expect them to massacre it as badly as they did. And I did fire off a letter to them teling them how stupid it was to list the list address in their book. They appear to have semi-corrected this in the second edition, by listing the request address under the entry of "Address of the list". America On Line does the same thing. They list the posting address in their database. I told the guy who updates it that this was a Very Bad Idea. He supported it, saying that you need to show new users the two addresses so they could differentiate between the two. I was like you've obviously never run any mailing lists. Well, maybe he has, but it's still flawed logic and I've received complaints about it from list owners. Best I can do is tell them to complain to AOL. Getting back to the Internet Yellow Pages, there's another one, the McGraw Hill Internet Yellow Pages that I am currently unhappy with, to the point where I went down to the book store yesterday to get their address out of the book (I was unsuccessful, Waldenbooks didn't have a copy on the shelf). What they have done is listed just my address (arielle@taronga.com) as a source for mailing lists. They don't note who I am or what I have and I'm listed with a bunch of automated listservers. So now I'm getting mail about three times a day, consisting only of the line "send net-info/interest-groups". It is annoying and I'd love to give the editors of this book a ...um... correction. Oh Per, next time I'm at the bookstore, I'll see about getting an email address for you for those two books. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 09:21:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA09714 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:18:07 -0800 Received: from loiosh.kei.com (ckd@loiosh.kei.com [192.88.144.32]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA09709; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:18:03 -0800 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA00853; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:16:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:16:08 -0500 From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199502081716.MAA00853@loiosh.kei.com> To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: References: X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BC> == Brent Chapman BC> If you leave off the comma, it sets the SMTP envelope sender (the BC> "From " line) to "list-owner" (the alias expansion of "owner-list"), BC> rather than simply "owner-list". Not a big deal, and maybe even a BC> feature, in this case; in others, however, for instance if the alias BC> expansion is an individual's email address, it can be a problem. BC> Only some versions of Sendmail do this, though I don't know exactly BC> which ones. I believe that all versions of sendmail V8 do; HP's sendmail has included some features of V8, but I don't know if this is one of them. I don't know of any other version that does this (yet). The usual idiom I see is: owner-list: list-request list-request: bob list: :include:/home/bob/list This will cause mail sent to "list" to have an SMTP envelope FROM of "list-request". The code is set up to only put the expansion of owner-foo into the SMTP envelope if it is a single item (which is why "list-owner," fakes it out); if there is more than one item, the literal "owner-foo" will be used in the SMTP envelope instead. It's a feature, IMHO, though it's not as well documented as one might like. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:20:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12491 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:51:19 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA12369 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:23:55 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14300; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:47 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502060220.AA14300@imsworld.com> Subject: Stupid users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've seen a user subscribe to a list this way: subscribe photo
to mailing list photo photo is the list. Majordomo does exactly that. It added the line
to mailing list photo to the photo list file. Not only did this right away send his welcome message to the photo mailing list but will cause major problems if not correct quickly by the list manager. The question that I was wondering is if anyway has come across this problem and how they have dealt with it. Why does majordomo take anything past the third word on a given line? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:22:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12542 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:53:14 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA22764 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:52:27 -0800 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA08667; Mon, 6 Feb 95 07:50:32 EST Message-Id: <9502061250.AA08667@ig1.att.att.com> From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:32 EST Subject: MIME-digestified mailing lists Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the mailing lists I subscribe to (Patterns) has moved to a digest format. Specifically, it has headers such as: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" which I guess is the standard way of encoding multipart messages in MIME. My personal preference would be to not get the mailing list as a MIME digest. I have a text-only interface to my current e-mail server, and use a MIME-compliant mailx that invokes metamail. This is less nice, IMHO, than pumping all the bits through my favorite pager and skipping ahead manually. People with wizzy MIME readers may prefer the new format. The first few messages had some problems, which seem to have been cleared up. (I've registered my preference with the list manager, and I've been heard. I respect the right of the list manager to run the list the way he or she wants.) Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? Paul S. R. Chisholm PersonaLink is a service psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ mark of AT&T AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services Paul_Chisholm@attpls.net I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:24:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12760 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:57:47 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA12755 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:57:43 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA033090333; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:52:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:52:13 -0500 Message-Id: <950208165133_16391589@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: >America On Line does the same thing. They list the posting address in >their database. I told the guy who updates it that this was a Very Bad >Idea. He supported it, saying that you need to show new users the two >addresses so they could differentiate between the two. I was like you've >obviously never run any mailing lists. Well, maybe he has, but it's still >flawed logic and I've received complaints about it from list owners. Best >I can do is tell them to complain to AOL. Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we do. If your mailing list management software is incapable of blocking posts from non-members, perhaps you should change to software which does. While Gene hasn't run lists for very long, I've never had any problems with my posting addresses being available for the six years I've been running lists. If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who *don't* want their posting address included, I encourage them to write *me*, instead of Ms da Silva. I am more than happy to work with list owners to modify their entries to suit their desires while remaining within the general format used by the database. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:50:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA13757 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:12 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA13729 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:04 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA12681 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id OAA15495 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502082224.OAA15495@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Need reply-to (or equiv) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (If this is in a faq, please tell me where I can find it.) I'm using majordomo 1.62 (with published security patches) and I want to force replies to got to the sender instead of the list. What can I do to make this happen? Thanks in advance for any help, Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:52:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA13809 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:53 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA12369 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:23:55 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14300; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:47 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502060220.AA14300@imsworld.com> Subject: Stupid users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've seen a user subscribe to a list this way: subscribe photo
to mailing list photo photo is the list. Majordomo does exactly that. It added the line
to mailing list photo to the photo list file. Not only did this right away send his welcome message to the photo mailing list but will cause major problems if not correct quickly by the list manager. The question that I was wondering is if anyway has come across this problem and how they have dealt with it. Why does majordomo take anything past the third word on a given line? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 17:49:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA18651 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:35:13 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA18646 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:35:11 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA02704 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:33:00 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id RAA06709 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:32:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:32:58 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502090132.RAA06709@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Need reply-to Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Forgot to add; I'm not on the list so please email directly if you have any suggestions on how to make replies go to the sender and not the list. Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 20:19:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA21854 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:53:08 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA21848 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:53:01 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21972 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Wed, 8 Feb 1995 21:18:34 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA00397; 8 Feb 95 19:02:57 CST (Wed) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA00394 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:02:56 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502090102.TAA00394@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Posting list addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:02:55 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1295 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have > asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we > do. You miss the point, David. It's not only bad netiquette, it's a bad idea all around. > If your mailing list management software is incapable of blocking posts > from non-members, perhaps you should change to software which does. I don't use a listserver for any of my lists, never have. It's a common misconception that all lists are run on listservers, one you seem to carry. I wasn't the one that originally complained about this, either. > If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who *don't* > want their posting address included, I encourage them to write *me*, instead > of Ms da Silva. I would rather they wrote you. I'm seriously not interested in fielding questions about problems created by AOL. I get a lot of mailing list related mail seemingly because I'm perceived as being more knowledgeable than many about mailing lists. As long as America Online continues to do things that go against time-honored Usenet and Internet traditions, (like publishing the posting address for a mailing list), then it's unlikely they will garner the same sort of reputation that I have. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:24:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01260 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:16 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01254 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:08 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA29346 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:35:10 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA17334; 9 Feb 95 10:17:41 CST (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17331; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:17:41 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502091617.KAA17331@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:17:40 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 489 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Please remove sci.psychology.digest from your mailing list immediately. It looks like they may have hit the mail-to-news gateways, using the "Mailing Lists Available in Usenet" article that's posted to news.announce.newusers. I say this because I received a cancel from panix even tho this article hasn't shown up on rec.food.recipes. It possibly didn't show up because that gateway is defunct (odd that it's still listed). Even so, it was an exceptionally uncool thing to do. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:29:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01077 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:15:27 -0800 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01052 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:15:19 -0800 Received: from stonewall.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa22510; 9 Feb 95 12:00 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:09 GMT In-Reply-To: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com's message 'List-Managers-Digest V4 #15' of Mon 6 Feb Reply-To: Nigel Whitfield X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #15 Message-ID: <9502091014.aa15781@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't the problem with duplicate copies nothing to do with the list management software at all. Surely it's simply that people reading messages are usign the 'reply to all' command on their mailer and thus generating two copies. If people know how to work their mailers (and all the ones that I've come across can manage it) then the problem wouldn't arise. To make the problem go away from a mailing list perspective, one solution is to re-write the headers on messages before they're sent out, so that the only address that will be found in the headers is the list address, or the originators address. This of course, means that people who can't figure their mail program out will reply either to an individual or to the whole list when they mean to do the opposite. Life's like that... Nigel. -- [Nigel Whitfield nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] [For details on the uk-motss mailing list mail uk-motss-request@dircon.co.uk] [****** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ******] From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:35:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01001 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:30 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA00994 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:26 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id EAA04662; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 04:56:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:32 am 2/6/95, Paul S R Chisholm wrote: >Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I >get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do >people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if >so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? I use a version of Eudora which treats MIME digests in a very elegant way that I'm not allowed to describe, and it seems to me that this is definitely the trend of the future and that more and more software will want to be MIME-compliant. For example, we're actually working on the new PGP 3.x API to send all of its output in MIME-compatible format, since it's a very elegant way of dividing msg parts and extending PGP functionality easily. While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not actively working on implementing it. dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:40:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01281 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:58 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01271 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:50 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:59 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:58 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091716.AA25749=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: brown@eff.org (Dan Brown) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: pat@suntan.tandem.com, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502091523.KAA12642@eff.org> from "Dan Brown" at Feb 9, 95 10:23:33 am From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 893 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dan Brown writes: > All that aside, this was, ad far as the headers appear, posted from Panix: > > (picking a random copy of the spam...) ... > NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com > This, BTW, appears to have pushed one of my news partitions over its > limit and choked news here temporarily. Really kinda pisses me off. > A cross posting would have been lots gentler. Maybe. But shame - shame = shame, for it would still have cluttered all moderated news groups. That makes two major offenses. Is there really nothing civilized yet adequate we can penalize these people with? There should be. -- Annius V. Groenink | avg@cwi.nl | Private/Edith/ZFC: CWI, Kruislaan 413 | zfc@zfc.nl | P.O. Box 12079 1098 SJ Amsterdam | Room M233 ext. 4077 | NL 1100 AB Amsterdam The Netherlands | Phone: +31 20 592 4077 | Phone: +31 20 695 9901 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:44:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA00770 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:11:55 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA00762 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:11:49 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:26 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:26 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091425.AA25518=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9279.9502091356@cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Stevan Harnad" at Feb 9, 95 01:56:15 pm From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1003 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a > place to spam with ads. I am sure I speak for many other list-owners > who are determined not to allow their lists to be spammed with ads like > this. > > Stevan Harnad > Editor, PSYCOLOQUY I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible news group without the intervention of moderators. I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed the ad. If we don't stop this type of net abuse now we're going to have to live with it in the near future... From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:48:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01015 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:46 -0800 Received: from suntan.Tandem.com ([192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA00986 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:24 -0800 From: pat@loc201.tandem.com Received: from adm.loc201.tandem.com (admin_01.loc201.tandem.com) by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for moderators id AA10464; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:33 PST Received: from vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com by adm.loc201.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA18777; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:33 PST Received: by vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com (4.1/6nospool.930120) id AA11281; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:32 PST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:32 PST Message-Id: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Reply-To: pat@tandem.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate > > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending > > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a It looks like this is another posting from Canter & Siegel. 10 border2-fddi0/0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.3.2) 71 ms 70 ms 71 ms 11 cpe2-hssi-1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.57.10) 72 ms 73 ms 72 ms 12 psi-mae-east-1.psi.net (192.41.177.235) 95 ms 81 ms 80 ms 13 core.net222.psi.net (38.1.2.4) 101 ms 82 ms 92 ms 14 serial.phoenix.az.psi.net (38.1.10.37) 122 ms 131 ms 111 ms 15 38.2.37.6 (38.2.37.6) 405 ms 134 ms 169 ms 16 cyber.sell.com (199.98.145.99) 166 ms 109 ms 132 ms Whois: sell.com Canter & Siegel (SELL-DOM) P.O.Box 13510 Scottsdale, AZ 85267 Domain Name: SELL.COM Administrative Contact: Canter, Laurence A. (LC42) postmaster@SELL.COM (602) 661-3911 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Network Information and Support Center (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@psi.com (518) 283-8860 Record last updated on 09-Aug-94. Domain servers in listed order: NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10 NS2.PSI.NET 192.35.82.2 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:58:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02536 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:41:42 -0800 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com (mgoodin@netcom22.netcom.com [192.100.81.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA02523 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:41:39 -0800 Received: by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id JAA17117; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:38:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:38:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Goodin Subject: Blanket subscriptions To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know if this is a problem at other sites, but there has been people who have been subscribing to every list run from the site I have several lists. This includes "private" lists. Are other list-managers having a similiar experience? Are there ways to filter out these multiple subscription? Mike Michael Goodin http://gagme.wwa.com/~mag mgoodin@netcom.com DRSMA Page - http://gagme.wwa.com/~mag/drsma.html From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:09:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02898 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:48:18 -0800 Received: from aspensys (aspensys.aspensys.com [198.77.70.104]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA02893 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:48:15 -0800 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA07061; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:46:34 +0500 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpinet.aspensys.com id AA792362906 Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:48:26 EST Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:48:26 EST From: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Meritt, Jim) Message-Id: <9501097923.AA792362906@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Dave Del Torto Subject: Re[2]: MIME-digestified mailing lists content-length: 1538 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am on a net resources list that distributes as html - the files are immediately usable via mosaic. Useful! Jim Meritt ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Author: Dave Del Torto at SMTPINET Date: 2/9/95 12:42 PM At 4:32 am 2/6/95, Paul S R Chisholm wrote: >Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I >get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do >people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if >so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? I use a version of Eudora which treats MIME digests in a very elegant way that I'm not allowed to describe, and it seems to me that this is definitely the trend of the future and that more and more software will want to be MIME-compliant. For example, we're actually working on the new PGP 3.x API to send all of its output in MIME-compatible format, since it's a very elegant way of dividing msg parts and extending PGP functionality easily. While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not actively working on implementing it. dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:17:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01817 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:30:31 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01812 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:30:27 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:55 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:55 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091727.AA25869=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502091617.KAA17331@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Feb 9, 95 10:17:40 am From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1162 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It looks like they may have hit the mail-to-news gateways, using the > "Mailing Lists Available in Usenet" article that's posted to > news.announce.newusers. > > I say this because I received a cancel from panix even tho this article > hasn't shown up on rec.food.recipes. It possibly didn't show up because > that gateway is defunct (odd that it's still listed). The cancel didn't take effect because *it* didn't contain the faked 'Approved:' line :-) I simple posted the cancel myself, and I think it works. > Even so, it was an exceptionally uncool thing to do. It sure was. Glad they apologized (then again, they probably apologized a while ago, so there is no reason to assume that they won't try this again...) The cancel seemed to be originated by the people who posted the ad, rather than someone authorative at the site where it was posted... am I right? regards, -- Annius V. Groenink | avg@cwi.nl | Private/Edith/ZFC: CWI, Kruislaan 413 | zfc@zfc.nl | P.O. Box 12079 1098 SJ Amsterdam | Room M233 ext. 4077 | NL 1100 AB Amsterdam The Netherlands | Phone: +31 20 592 4077 | Phone: +31 20 695 9901 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:22:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA04508 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:23 -0800 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [204.91.98.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA04492 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:14 -0800 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id NAA16547; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:09:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:09:40 -0500 (EST) From: David Casti To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blanket subscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Michael, > I don't know if this is a problem at other sites, but there has been > people who have been subscribing to every list run from the site I have > several lists. This includes "private" lists. > > Are other list-managers having a similiar experience? Are there ways to > filter out these multiple subscription? Yes. I often see this. Someone comes along and does a "lists" request against my server, and then attempts to subscribe to everything. That is a nontrivial decision which always attracts attention, since there are about 50 lists here. Usually they get bored (or drowned) quickly and unsubscribe by themselves. Any lists where privacy is an issue are already set to require the list owner's approval before subscription, so it hasn't been much of a problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Casti Pager: (800) 980-6227 Information Scientist http://www.casti.com/casti/David.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:24:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03398 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:16 -0800 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [204.91.98.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA03390 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:13 -0800 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id MAA16115; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:52:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:52:44 -0500 (EST) From: David Casti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: mcguire@digex.net Subject: sell.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Didn't PSI (Marty or Bill, I think) make a public announcement when they extended service to the evil sell.com duo (more widely known as the Green Card Lawyers) that they would turn them off if they abused their service in this fashion? I remember seeing a press release about this... It was forwarded to several lists and showed up in cu-digest and risks, I think. Does anyone have a copy around? Perhaps it is time for the net.public to point out the problem to PSI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Casti Pager: (800) 980-6227 Information Scientist http://www.casti.com/casti/David.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:25:44 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01645 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:26:31 -0800 Received: from eff.org (brown@eff.org [192.77.172.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA01634 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:26:26 -0800 Received: (from brown@localhost) by eff.org (8.6.9/8.6.6) id KAA12642; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:23:34 -0500 From: Dan Brown Message-Id: <199502091523.KAA12642@eff.org> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: pat@suntan.tandem.com Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:23:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> from "pat@loc201.tandem.com" at Feb 9, 95 06:45:32 am X-EFF_Membership_Queries_To: membership@eff.org X-EFF_General_Info: info@eff.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2586 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Message-Id: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> >To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl >Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM >Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, > lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net >Reply-To: pat@suntan.tandem.com > > >> > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate >> > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending >> > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a > > > >It looks like this is another posting from Canter & Siegel. > > >10 border2-fddi0/0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.3.2) 71 ms 70 ms 71 ms >11 cpe2-hssi-1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.57.10) 72 ms 73 ms 72 ms >12 psi-mae-east-1.psi.net (192.41.177.235) 95 ms 81 ms 80 ms >13 core.net222.psi.net (38.1.2.4) 101 ms 82 ms 92 ms >14 serial.phoenix.az.psi.net (38.1.10.37) 122 ms 131 ms 111 ms >15 38.2.37.6 (38.2.37.6) 405 ms 134 ms 169 ms >16 cyber.sell.com (199.98.145.99) 166 ms 109 ms 132 ms > > >Whois: sell.com >Canter & Siegel (SELL-DOM) > P.O.Box 13510 > Scottsdale, AZ 85267 > > Domain Name: SELL.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Canter, Laurence A. (LC42) postmaster@SELL.COM > (602) 661-3911 > Technical Contact, Zone Contact: > Network Information and Support Center (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@psi.com > (518) 283-8860 > > Record last updated on 09-Aug-94. > > Domain servers in listed order: > > NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10 > NS2.PSI.NET 192.35.82.2 > > All that aside, this was, ad far as the headers appear, posted from Panix: (picking a random copy of the spam...) bit.netmonth #2 [1] Path: eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net! + prodigy.com!panix!not-for-mail From: ccapc@cyber.sell.com (Consumer Credit Advocates) Newsgroups: bit.netmonth [1] GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Date: 9 Feb 1995 04:44:13 -0500 Organization: Consumer Credit Advocates, PC Lines: 117 Sender: ccapc@panix.com Approved: postmaster Message-ID: <3hco5d$dtl@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com This, BTW, appears to have pushed one of my news partitions over its limit and choked news here temporarily. Really kinda pisses me off. A cross posting would have been lots gentler. -- Online.. | | (Dan Brown brown@eff.org) _/| __/| _ |/ |/ Or... Flatline. _________________ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:26:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03461 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:58:02 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA03447 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:54 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA27712 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:19:54 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12735; 9 Feb 95 08:02:21 CST (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id IAA12732 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:02:21 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502091402.IAA12732@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Posting list addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:02:20 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1352 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have > > asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we > > do. I was thinking about this some more. I was recently on a mailing list that formed an adhoc committee to help solve the problems the list had been having. The main problem was a mass influx of America Online users that were posting things not within the charter of the mailing list. This mailing list had been set up as a support/discussion group for people of a specific sexual lifestyle and the new users were treating it like it were alt.sex.personals. When it was brought up that the primary reason for the AOL influx was because of the AOL mailing list database, most of the people on the committee were surprised to find out of the existance of this database, much less the mailing list was on it without their knowledge. The PAML is highly visible to Internet users. The AOL is not, at least not in any place that I know. I don't think it's very fair that you have this database that directly affects users hidden away where these people can't even see it, much less find out about it. I think the point I'm trying to make is it's hard for people to ask you to make changes when they don't even know something is there that might be in need of their input. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:28:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03258 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:54:53 -0800 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA03249 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:54:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199502091754.JAA03249@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9481; Thu, 09 Feb 95 18:49:21 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 5041; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:49:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:44:37 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 Dave Del Torto said: >While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text >formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are >already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing >that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME >digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not >actively working on implementing it. The problem is not writing the code, which is just a few changes to the text format. The problem is the people who don't have MIME. It's easy for MIME people to say that everyone should use MIME. It's equally easy for non-MIME people to say that MIME users are still a minority and the MIME version of their mail program costs $$$ (yes, I know there are shareware versions, but in many companies people have to run commercial software, and the new version with the MIME features that people decided they don't really need costs upgrade $$$). Software to process the old-style digests is widely available. Mail readers that handle MIME digests are still few (there are many MIME mail readers that don't do anything useful with MIME digests). Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:30:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03085 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:52:12 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA03079 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:52:05 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id KAA28230; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:42:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199502091542.KAA28230@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: PMDAtropos@aol.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Feb 1995 16:52:13 EST." <950208165133_16391589@aol.com> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 10:42:11 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list > owners have asked us not to include the posting address, and when > asked to change it we do. What's not clear is how many of the remainder of the list owners have no idea that they are in your database (or why they get so many inappropriate posts from clueless AOL members...not that AOL members are any less intelligent than the normal population, but if you get enough inappropriate posts from joe-user@aol.com, it can sure look that way...) In general, new Internet users tend to think that everybody sees the same interface they see, so their own interface defines how things are "supposed" to work. > If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who > *don't* want their posting address included, I encourage them to write > *me*, instead of Ms da Silva. Since AOL isn't the only one with this problem, the net as a whole is better off if the list is maintained by someone independent of any particular service provider. ---- As to whether posting addresses should be listed, I've usually found it is okay to list both the subscribe and the posting address, as long as it is VERY CLEARLY indicated what each address is for: Send Subscription Requests To: info-mime-REQUEST@cs.utk.edu Send List Submissions To: info-mime@cs.utk.edu For lists that only accept postings from subscribers, it is sufficient to say so, and list only the subscribe address. Keith Moore p.s. For the lists that I maintain, I actually see about as many articles sent to the -request address, as I see subscribe requests sent to the list address. A lot of mail user agents or gateways can't manage to send replies to the right address... From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:22:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07501 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:19:43 -0800 Received: from nic.hq.cic.net (baseball@nic.hq.cic.net [198.108.58.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA07496 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:19:40 -0800 Received: (from baseball@localhost) by nic.hq.cic.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA19115; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:17:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:17:41 -0500 (EST) From: Dorian Rysling Kim X-Sender: baseball@nic.hq.cic.net To: Keith Moore cc: Annius Groenink , Stevan Harnad , ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-Reply-To: <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, this is all nice, but who's going to pay the lawyers' fees? C & S are rude, obnoxious pains, but we are sort of like the last of the Romans.. we don't have money to pay for our defense and soon we'll be beseiged by the barbarians. Oh wait.. Romans fell because they didn't want to pay for her defense.. Hmmm... -dorian Dorian Kim | Co-moderator rec.sport.baseball.analysis. Questions, comments, flames should be sent to baseball@cic.net and/or baseball-request@cic.net On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > > the ad. > > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. > > How do we get something like this started? > > Keith Moore > From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:52:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08254 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:43:46 -0800 Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com [16.1.0.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA08229 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:43:30 -0800 Received: from pobox1.pa.dec.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA20948; Thu, 9 Feb 95 11:34:22 -0800 Received: by pobox1.pa.dec.com; id AA00625; Thu, 9 Feb 95 11:34:19 -0800 Received: from localhost by piedpiper.pa.dec.com; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul94-0558PM) id AA07431; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:34:18 -0800 Message-Id: <9502091934.AA07431@piedpiper.pa.dec.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 95 14:00:46 EST." <9502091900.AA18012@cartoon.MIT.EDU> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 11:34:17 -0800 From: Brian Reid X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think I am going to turn off Digital's mail-to-news gateway. I don't think it was used for this one, but it's just a matter of time. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:56:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08386 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:46:35 -0800 Received: from bio3.acpub.duke.edu (bio3.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.106.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA08381 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:46:31 -0800 Received: (from jfurr@localhost) by bio3.acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) id OAA04109; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:43:47 -0500 From: "Joel K. Furr" Message-Id: <199502091943.OAA04109@bio3.acpub.duke.edu> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: baseball@CIC.Net (Dorian Rysling Kim) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:43:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, mnemonic@eff.org In-Reply-To: from "Dorian Rysling Kim" at Feb 9, 95 02:17:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 801 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dorian Rysling Kim wrote: -> ->Well, this is all nice, but who's going to pay the lawyers' fees? C & S ->are rude, obnoxious pains, but we are sort of like the last of the ->Romans.. we don't have money to pay for our defense and soon we'll be ->beseiged by the barbarians. Oh wait.. Romans fell because they didn't ->want to pay for her defense.. Hmmm... I'm going to go out on a limb here, but... Speaking as a non-lawyer, it might be useful to get a legal defense fund together for a test lawsuit against some spammer; I'd be willing to contribute quite a lot of money and I imagine that we could get a big-ass chunk of money from a lot of other people, too. Then we'd sue someone as a class-action suit, and when the courts found against the spammers, we'd have a precedent on our side. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:02:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA06600 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:55:30 -0800 Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA06595 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:55:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199502091855.KAA06595@miles.greatcircle.com> To: ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:52:47 EST Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The problem is not writing the code, which is just a few changes to the > text format. The problem is the people who don't have MIME. It's easy for > MIME people to say that everyone should use MIME. It's equally easy for > non-MIME people to say that MIME users are still a minority and the MIME > version of their mail program costs $$$ (yes, I know there are shareware > versions, but in many companies people have to run commercial software, > and the new version with the MIME features that people decided they don't > really need costs upgrade $$$). Software to process the old-style digests > is widely available. Mail readers that handle MIME digests are still few > (there are many MIME mail readers that don't do anything useful with MIME > digests). > > Eric Why not allow the user to specify which type of digest they want? From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:08:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07002 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:03:35 -0800 Received: from MIT.EDU (SOUTH-STATION-ANNEX.MIT.EDU [18.72.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA06997 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:03:32 -0800 From: pshuang@MIT.EDU Received: from CARTOON.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA06987; Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:01:05 EST Received: by cartoon.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA18012; Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:00:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:00:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9502091900.AA18012@cartoon.MIT.EDU> To: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl Cc: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: Annius Groenink's message of Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:54 +0100 (MET) <9502091727.AA25869=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) said: > The cancel seemed to be originated by the people who posted the ad, > rather than someone authorative at the site where it was posted... > am I right? No, Panix admnistrators have been the ones issuing the cancels; the *.answers moderators initiated a dialog with them almost immediately. Mara Chibnik appears to be spearheading the cleanup efforts; she already realizes that the initial round of cancels issued needed were missing Approved: lines to take effect in the moderated newsgroups which were spammed. Ping Huang, member of the *.answers moderation team (news-answers-request@MIT.EDU) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:13:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07051 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:05:54 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA07046 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:05:49 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id NAA28583; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:59:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) cc: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:25:25 +0100." <9502091425.AA25518=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:58:52 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > the ad. I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:22:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA09193 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:05:25 -0800 Received: from stl-17sima (STL-17SIMA.ARMY.MIL [150.211.20.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA09183; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:05:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092005.MAA09183@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:01:02 CST From: Rich Zellich To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's nice that list-manager/digetstification software handles MIME, but what is more important to me as a subscriber to a *lot* of lists, is that an awful lot of us don't have mail-reading software that can handle MIME input. And you can't tell me "go get some modern mail software, then, silly" because *I'm* not the one in charge of anything remotely having to do with what services are acquired and maintained on any of our inhouse systems. Just a little perspective... Rich From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:29:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA09403 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:10:37 -0800 Received: from rand.org (rand.org [192.5.14.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA09387 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:10:30 -0800 Received: from monty.rand.org (monty-cc.rand.org [130.154.8.173]) by rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10138; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:41 -0800 Received: from atlantis.rand.org (atlantis.rand.org [130.154.12.124]) by monty.rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA14324; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:40 -0800 Received: from localhost.rand.org (localhost.rand.org [127.0.0.1]) by atlantis.rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA07592; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> To: Keith Moore cc: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Reply-to: Brian_Leverich@rand.org Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 09 Feb 95 13:58:52 EST. <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:07:28 PST From: Brian Leverich Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -- Your message was: (from "Keith Moore") I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore ------------------ I don't think a legal remedy is worth pursuing, because it would take too long, cost too much, and likely fail. The courts tend to lag behind technology and they tend to handle new problems poorly. I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. That would choke a corner of The Net for a day or two, but it would probably make sites much more proactive about encouraging their users not to do wrong things. Sounds like panix is doing right things (at least after the fact) in the case at hand, but I think sell.com could probably profit from a few gigs of trash coming at them. It might hurt psi, but it's a little disappointing that psi is selling a feed to known net sociopaths like Canter and Siegal. -B --------- Dr. Brian Leverich Information Systems Scientist, The RAND Corporation Co-moderators, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L leverich@rand.org From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:52:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10540 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:37:57 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10511 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:37:44 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA28801; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:31:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199502092031.PAA28801@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brian_Leverich@rand.org cc: Keith Moore , Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 12:07:28 PST." <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:31:21 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We > should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, > sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers > for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the > site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. I don't think this will work very well. The problem is that this kind of action could very well be as damaging as the spams in the first place, and equally vulnerable to legal action. I'd love to see the net community find a way to solve this within itself, but the service providers are in a wierd position. If they disconnect a user for misbehavior, they might be seen as actively controlling content, and thus they might be held responsible for the content of everyone's posts. (just wait 'til somebody sends a nekkid picture of their kid and the service provider gets sued for transmitting kiddie porn.) Basically, sooner or later the courts will claim to have jurisdiction over the net, and the cops will back them up. I don't see that as desirable (I'd much rather have the net police itself), but I don't know what to do about it. So at this point I suspect the legal system is our best bet, but I'd certainly like to hear of other suggestions. Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:56:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10186 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:30:19 -0800 Received: from eff.org (brown@eff.org [192.77.172.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10181 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:30:15 -0800 Received: (from brown@localhost) by eff.org (8.6.9/8.6.6) id PAA28623; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:27:14 -0500 From: Dan Brown Message-Id: <199502092027.PAA28623@eff.org> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: Brian_Leverich@rand.org Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:27:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> from "Brian Leverich" at Feb 9, 95 12:07:28 pm X-EFF_Membership_Queries_To: membership@eff.org X-EFF_General_Info: info@eff.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1706 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >-- Your message was: (from "Keith Moore") > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. > > How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore > ------------------ > >I don't think a legal remedy is worth pursuing, because it would take >too long, cost too much, and likely fail. The courts tend to lag >behind technology and they tend to handle new problems poorly. > >I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We >should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, >sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers >for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the >site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. > >That would choke a corner of The Net for a day or two, but it would >probably make sites much more proactive about encouraging their users >not to do wrong things. > >Sounds like panix is doing right things (at least after the fact) in >the case at hand, but I think sell.com could probably profit from a >few gigs of trash coming at them. It might hurt psi, but it's a little >disappointing that psi is selling a feed to known net sociopaths like >Canter and Siegal. -B I spoke with one of our legal staff and was reminded that there aren't really any very clear laws being broken here. So... legal action would (unfortunately) likely fail. -- Online.. | | (Dan Brown brown@eff.org) _/| __/| _ |/ |/ Or... Flatline. _________________ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:06:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10266 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:32:28 -0800 Received: from yukon.cren.org (root@yukon.cren.org [198.76.81.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10260 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:32:22 -0800 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with ESMTP id <79759-1>; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:29:25 -0500 To: Keith Moore cc: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:58:52 EST." <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <26909.792361749.1@yukon.cren.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <26910.792361750@yukon.cren.org> From: Marco Hernandez Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > > the ad. > > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. Hmm, Nasty things lawsuits.. They then usually lead to countersuits $$$ spent and in the end only the lawyers really win (But then again these folks are lawyers :O ) Bleak House ... The first thing is to really guage how much support there is for this kind of effort. Perhaps someone at a University with a Law School could get a little volunteer time from either students or faculty to see if there is even the basis to sue .. (Not that that ever stopped anyone).... What exactly was lost ? After all these resources are being put up by "entities" for public consumption and that is what they did (consume ...) Are we all willing to dig into our pockets ? Are other folks ... Can we get some kind of institutional backing ? (I use the we here very loosely ...) > > How do we get something like this started? > A person willing to coordinate and lead -- Keith ? :-) would be a start ... /Marco > Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:13:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA11179 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:50:38 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA11162 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:50:32 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol