From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 1 11:20:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA19524 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:52:27 -0800 Received: from westweb.com (www.westweb.com [192.207.47.87]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA19519 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:52:22 -0800 Received: from localhost (klg@localhost) by westweb.com (8.6.5/8.6.6) id KAA21916 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:46:41 -0800 From: "Kevin L. Gross" Message-Id: <199504011846.KAA21916@westweb.com> Subject: test, pls ignore To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:46:41 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 296 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sent a message last night and never received it. -Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS: ***************************************************************** "When I'm a good dog, they sometimes throw me a bone." --Pink Floyd From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 07:20:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA23241 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:18:23 -0700 Received: from students.fct.unl.pt (students.fct.unl.pt [192.68.216.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA23232 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:16:56 -0700 Received: (from pms@localhost) by students.fct.unl.pt (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA20588; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:14:29 -0100 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 15:14:19 -0100 From: Pedro Amorim To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 11:33:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA26893 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:14:10 -0700 Received: from luey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA26888 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:14:06 -0700 Received: from cad75.cadvision.com by luey.cadvision.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA21556; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:15:29 -0600 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:15:29 -0600 Message-Id: <9504031815.AA21556@luey.cadvision.com> X-Sender: myattj@huey.cadvision.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt) Subject: The Best List I've seen so far Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is quite a nice list - I get to read it real quick like ..... ----------------------------------------------------------- Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262 GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566 435, 4th Ave SW | Email to: Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23 ----------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 3 21:50:20 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA16094 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:32:54 -0700 Received: from uclink.berkeley.edu (uclink.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.155.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id VAA16089 for ; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:32:52 -0700 Received: by uclink.berkeley.edu (8.6.10/1.33(web)-OV4) id VAA04582; Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:32:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:32:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael J. Osofsky" Subject: Re: The Best List I've seen so far To: Justin Kipper Myatt cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9504031815.AA21556@luey.cadvision.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Justin Kipper Myatt wrote: > > This is quite a nice list - I get to read it real quick like ..... > > What list is? List-Managers? mike From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 10:22:19 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03852 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:55:18 -0700 Received: from luey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA03843 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:55:15 -0700 Received: from cad72.cadvision.com by luey.cadvision.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA19900; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:56:39 -0600 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:56:39 -0600 Message-Id: <9504041656.AA19900@luey.cadvision.com> X-Sender: myattj@huey.cadvision.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows client) to deal with some of my inbound mail. cheers Justin ----------------------------------------------------------- Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262 GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566 435, 4th Ave SW | Email to: Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23 ----------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 11:53:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07655 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:42:26 -0700 Received: from walt.disney.com (walt.disney.com [139.104.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA07649 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:42:23 -0700 From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb by walt.disney.com with SMTP id AA11609 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:42:36 -0700 Received: from joanna.wdp_animation by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0rwDYh-000006C; Tue, 4 Apr 95 11:42 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 11:42 PDT To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Digest Format Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a standard format for digests that I should be using so things like newsreaders can break up a digest? Where would I find out about this format? Thanks. Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 544 2683 (voice) Glendale, CA +1 818 544 4579 (fax) From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 4 12:22:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA08581 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:10:36 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA08576 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:10:33 -0700 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 95 15:13:23 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: sullivan@fa.disney.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digest Format Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9504041513.aa15512@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Sullivan wrote: >Is there a standard format for digests that I should be using so things >like newsreaders can break up a digest? Where would I find out about >this format? Thanks. RFC 1153 has the info you need: Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:20:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA29608 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:01:54 -0700 Received: from luey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA29597 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:01:48 -0700 Received: from cad68.cadvision.com by luey.cadvision.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA32110; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:03:10 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:03:10 -0600 Message-Id: <9504051503.AA32110@luey.cadvision.com> X-Sender: myattj@huey.cadvision.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: agoodloe@best.com (Amy Goodloe/Women Online), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy - it looks as if the commercial version will handle rules etc... Now I have to weigh this against Pegesus mail that has rules too and appears to deal with more forms of attachment. ta justin >>Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a >>replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows >>client) to deal with some of my inbound mail. > >Are you sure you can't do what you want with some of Eudora's extra >settings?? What is it you want and I'll check for you. > >--Amy >agoodloe@best.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262 GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566 435, 4th Ave SW | Email to: Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23 ----------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:24:55 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA29705 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:05:54 -0700 Received: from luey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA29692 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:05:49 -0700 Received: from cad68.cadvision.com by luey.cadvision.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA33878; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:07:11 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:07:11 -0600 Message-Id: <9504051507.AA33878@luey.cadvision.com> X-Sender: myattj@huey.cadvision.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Alan Millar" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: myattj@cadvision.com (Justin "Kipper" Myatt) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #73 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yah - I loaded and the damm thing does not have any of the POP/SMTP server menus displayed...... I guess another trip through the manual is required. How does this compare with Eudora - commercial version ?? ta justin >> Well I have great fun managing the mail coming in. Now I just need a >> replacment for Eudora that will let me creat rules (a la' cc:Mail windows >> client) to deal with some of my inbound mail. > >I use Pegasus Mail for Windows. It is available for free from >ftp://risc.ua.edu/ > >It is a full Windows POP mail client, and also supports MHS and >Novell-LAN based mail. I'm using it for POP. > >It has very good rule-filtering capabilities built in. I highly >recommend it. > >You can take quite a few actions based on the contents of header >fields. Check it out! > >- Alan >---- >Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org >System Administrator Web: http://turnpike.net/metro/amillar > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Justin Myatt - Email Personage | Call me at 403 290 3262 GE Capital Technology Services | Fax me at 403 290 2566 435, 4th Ave SW | Email to: Calgary, Alberta, Canada, T2P 3A8 | myattj@cadvision.com Brrr it's cold here today.... | CrudUServe(CIS)72234.23 ----------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 08:50:49 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA00738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:41:17 -0700 Received: from relay.rediris.es (relay.rediris.es [130.206.1.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id IAA00706 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:40:09 -0700 Received: from opalo.etsiig.uniovi.es by relay.rediris.es (PMDF V4.2-11 #4193) id <01HOZIHJRLIO8X1SNB@relay.rediris.es>; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:23:02 GMT+1 Received: from charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es by etsiig.uniovi.es (PMDF V4.3-10 #4541) id <01HOZIENSZ1S9OD07K@etsiig.uniovi.es>; Wed, 05 Apr 1995 16:20:49 +0100 (GMT) Received: by charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA19836; Wed, 5 Apr 95 16:22:57 +0100 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 1995 16:22:56 +0000 (WETDST) From: Oscar Fernandez Sierra Subject: Fail in Return-Path To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01HOZIENT8GI9OD07K@etsiig.uniovi.es> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello! I've installed majordomo under uid an gid "majordom". Now, when i send a mail to the list test, in the field Return-Path appears majordom@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es instead of owner-test@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es or something similar (test-owner). How can i solve this. I didn't find any related in FAQ, README nor resend.README. I have the standard majordomo.cf, without modifications. My system in an HP 715, running HP-UX 9.01. I send here a piece of /usr/lib/aliases *************************** [... deleted ...] # Local aliases # For majordomo majordomo: "|/users/majordom/wrapper majordomo" owner-majordomo: oscar majordomo-owner: oscar # For test **************** test: "|/users/majordom/wrapper resend -l test -h charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es test-outgoing" test-outgoing: :include:/users/majordom/lists/test owner-test: oscar test-owner: oscar test-request: "|/users/majordom/wrapper request-answer test" test-approval: oscar #End of aliases Thanks a lot in advance. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Oscar Fernandez Sierra | | Escuela Tecnica Superior de Ingenieros Industriales de Gijon | | Departamento de Construccion e Ingenieria de Fabricacion | | Ctra. de Castiello s/n 33204 | | Gijon (Spain) | | | | E-mail: oscar@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es Phone: INT + 34 + 8 + 518.20.51 | | WWW: http://www1.uniovi.es/ FAX: INT + 34 + 8 + 533.85.38 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 09:20:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01196 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:01:19 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01190 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:01:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 12:03:33 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Oscar Fernandez Sierra , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Fail in Return-Path Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9504051203.aa22000@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I've installed majordomo under uid an gid "majordom". Now, when i send >a mail to the list test, in the field Return-Path appears > majordom@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es >instead of > owner-test@charpy.etsiig.uniovi.es >or something similar (test-owner). How can i solve this. I didn't find By asking the majordomo list? This is the List-Managers list. majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 11:51:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA05760 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:27:13 -0700 Received: from lnd.state.az.us (alris.lnd.state.az.us [159.87.160.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA05754 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:27:10 -0700 Received: from tbird.lnd.az.gov ([159.87.160.174]) by lnd.state.az.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15309; Wed, 5 Apr 95 11:26:24 MST Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 11:26:24 MST From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern) Message-Id: <9504051826.AA15309@lnd.state.az.us> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: memory fault - 139? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Howdy- After setting up majordomo 1.93 on SunOps 4.x, Perl 4.036, I am getting the following messages from everyone who tries to subcribe to a list, or use "lists" from majordomo on host. ----- Transcript of session follows ----- sh: 15112 Memory fault 554 "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 139 Now this is what is strange. I (as owner) can use majordomo functions properly with this message sent to me AFTER it answers my requests or commands. For everyone else it sends the above message to them BEFORE it answers their request, and does not answer them. It just bounces their request right back at them. We are all going crazy here trying to figure this one out. Any help would be seriously appreciated! Thanks a bunch in advance, Michael Collins From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:50:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA11023 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:22:47 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA11009; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:22:41 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA08213; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:22:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:22:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Roger Burns Reply-To: Roger Burns Subject: Re: memory fault - 139? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: list-managers-request@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9504051826.AA15309@lnd.state.az.us> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I subscribed to this group to read about general list-management issues. I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. I am aware that there is a majordomo technical list. My interest in following this group is for reading only about non-software-specific issues, and I thought that was in the charter for this group. Could we please get a ruling from this group's list-owner about what is and is not appropriate for discussion here? I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and off-topic for this group. -- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:53:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA11476 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:57 -0700 Received: from lnd.state.az.us (lnd.state.az.us [159.87.160.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA11470 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:47 -0700 Received: from tbird.lnd.az.gov ([159.87.160.174]) by lnd.state.az.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16655; Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:34:01 MST Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:34:01 MST From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern) Message-Id: <9504052134.AA16655@lnd.state.az.us> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk get list-managers.9410 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 14:56:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA11438 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:26 -0700 Received: from lnd.state.az.us (lnd.state.az.us [159.87.160.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA11425 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:22 -0700 Received: from tbird.lnd.az.gov ([159.87.160.174]) by lnd.state.az.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16649; Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:34 MST Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:34 MST From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern) Message-Id: <9504052133.AA16649@lnd.state.az.us> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk get list-managers.9502 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 15:02:50 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA11455 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:37 -0700 Received: from lnd.state.az.us (alris.lnd.state.az.us [159.87.160.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA11447 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:34:32 -0700 Received: from tbird.lnd.az.gov ([159.87.160.174]) by lnd.state.az.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16652; Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:44 MST Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:33:44 MST From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern) Message-Id: <9504052133.AA16652@lnd.state.az.us> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk get list-managers.9503 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 15:08:17 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA11494 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:35:06 -0700 Received: from lnd.state.az.us (alris.lnd.state.az.us [159.87.160.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA11478 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:35:00 -0700 Received: from tbird.lnd.az.gov ([159.87.160.174]) by lnd.state.az.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16658; Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:34:09 MST Date: Wed, 5 Apr 95 14:34:09 MST From: mcollins@lnd.state.az.us (Micheal Collins Intern) Message-Id: <9504052134.AA16658@lnd.state.az.us> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk get list-managers.9407 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 15:20:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA13023 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:15:43 -0700 Received: from jazzie.com (p8.jazzie.com [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA13018 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:15:39 -0700 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0rwdLn-000OXCC; Wed, 5 Apr 95 15:14 PDT Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List To: cfs-news@cais.cais.com Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Roger Burns" at Apr 5, 95 05:22:56 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 883 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger wrote: > I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't > interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...] > I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and > off-topic for this group. I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly its intent. I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused about the list's purpose. Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software package) might help disambiguate its intended use? -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028 Sean's Home Page Serving the Net since 1990. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 5 17:23:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA16994 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:12:39 -0700 Received: from vhipub.vhi.com (VHIPUB.VHI.COM [167.18.73.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id RAA16989 for ; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 17:12:36 -0700 Received: from [167.18.110.3] by vhipub.vhi.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA05337; Wed, 5 Apr 95 20:11:58 -0400 Received: from paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com by av2.vrx.vhi.com (5.4R2.10/1.3) id AA09134; Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:41:23 -0700 X-Organization: RxNet, Inc. Fresno, CA 800/447-9638 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul-Joseph de Werk Subject: Re: Mis-Use of List-Managers List X-Originating-Host: paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1995Apr05.164234-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com> Date: 05 Apr 1995 16:41:13 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: BWMail for Windows Version 3.2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Sean Shapira - uttered: | | Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List | Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT) | | Roger wrote: | > I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't | > interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...] | > I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and | > off-topic for this group. What is on-topic and what is off-? Hmmm... Here's what a "lists" request returns me from "majordomo@greatcircle.com" maybe this will help. >>>> lists Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM serves the following lists: bounces For email addresses that have been bouncing firewalls Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems firewalls-digest Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems gca-announce Announcements for Great Circle Associates customers list-managers For people who manage Internet mailing lists list-managers-digest For people who manage Internet mailing lists majordomo-announce Announcements about the Majordomo package majordomo-docs For people working on Majordomo documentation majordomo-users For people using Majordomo majordomo-workers For people extending or developing Majordomo phonestation Discussions about computer-telephone integration phonestation-digest Discussions about computer-telephone integration wvfc-members For members of West Valley Flying Club Use the 'info ' command to get more information about a specific list. >>>> info list-managers Description =========== This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) software, methods, mechanisms, techniques, and policies. This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992. [... remainder left off ...] Hmmm. Seems to me this being the list-managers group and all that on-topic would be anything having to do with managing a mailing list. | I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than | implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly | its intent. | | I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using | the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused | about the list's purpose. | | Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than | greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software | package) might help disambiguate its intended use? Maybe they just need to add a list called "list-servers" or "majordomo-admin" for those people maintaining majordomo itself. __________________________________________________________________________ [ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ] [ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ] [ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ] [ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ] [_______________________________\__________________________________________] From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 01:58:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA18070 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 01:45:46 -0700 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id BAA18063 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 01:45:39 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.10/8.6.10) id JAA08299 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:53:17 +0100 From: Peter Bowyer Message-Id: <199504060853.JAA08299@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:53:16 +0200 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199504060800.BAA16113@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Apr 6, 95 01:00:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 704 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All, No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really* writing a reply about last night's digest. It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap. There were people posting Majordomo questions, others telling them not to, some discussing what the list charter should be and where to find it. 2 posts were mis-directed administrivia. And there's an ongoing thread about Pegasus vs Eudora as a POP3 client. And now, I've gone and added to the noise factor by moaning about it. Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory? Peter -- Peter Bowyer peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 10:27:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA04721 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:35 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA04715 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:31 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:03:51 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: List-Managers is NOT the place for Majordomo support discussions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just to make it perfectly clear to everyone: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is NOT the appropriate forum for support discussions related to a particular mailing list management package. Such discussions should be directed to that package's support mailing list. In the case of Majordomo, that's "Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM"; other packages have their own lists hosted elsewhere, and should be mentioned in the documentation for the package. List-Managers is an appropriate place for discussions comparing multiple packages, or discussing mailing list management package features without regard to particular packages (for instance, discussing how various packages deal with bounced mail). -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 10:32:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA04325 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:58:08 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA04310; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:58:03 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:58:24 -0800 To: Paul-Joseph de Werk , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Mis-Use of List-Managers List Cc: mcb@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:41 PM 4/5/95, Paul-Joseph de Werk wrote: >An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Sean Shapira - uttered: >| >| Subject: Mis-Use of List-Managers List >| Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:14:59 -0700 (PDT) >| >| Roger wrote: >| > I keep reading here about majordomo technical issues, which don't >| > interest me because I don't run a majordomo list. [...] >| > I would like a distinction made clear between what is on- and >| > off-topic for this group. > >What is on-topic and what is off-? Hmmm... > >Here's what a "lists" request returns me from "majordomo@greatcircle.com" >maybe this will help. > >>>>> info list-managers >Description >=========== >This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet >mailing lists, including (but not limited to) software, methods, >mechanisms, techniques, and policies. This list is an outgrowth of >the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration >Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992. > >[... remainder left off ...] > >Hmmm. Seems to me this being the list-managers group and all that >on-topic would be anything having to do with managing a mailing list. The policy has always been that discussions specific to a single package, such as Majordomo, LISTSERV, LISTPROC, or whatever, should be sent to that package's support mailing list (for instance, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM), and that only discussions concerning software in general, or comparisons between different packages, or features in general, and so forth, are appropriate for the List-Managers mailing list. We'll update the info file for List-Managers to clarify that. We've been kind of busy around here lately, so many of our lists (including List-Managers) have been running more-or-less on autopilot, without anyone following postings to them too closely. >| I too would prefer to see this list focus on general rather than >| implementation-specific list issues, and believe that is clearly >| its intent. >| >| I don't see much malice on the part of those who are mis-using >| the list, though. Rather, they seem to genuinely be confused >| about the list's purpose. >| >| Dare I suggest that moving the list to a host other than >| greatcircle.com (the famous home of the majordomo software >| package) might help disambiguate its intended use? > >Maybe they just need to add a list called "list-servers" or >"majordomo-admin" for those people maintaining majordomo itself. Already exists, and has since before List-Managers: Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 6 23:26:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA02392 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:19:23 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id XAA02387; Thu, 6 Apr 1995 23:19:18 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id CAA26392; Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:19:31 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:19:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Roger Burns Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75 To: Brent Chapman cc: Peter Bowyer , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199504060853.JAA08299@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Peter Bowyer wrote: > No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really* writing > a reply about last night's digest. > > It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap. > Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality > list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory? I'd like to see a hands-on list-manager be assigned to monitor this list daily and to notify posters when their messages are off-topic. Yes, moderation. If an appropriate volunteer were available to take on this responsibility, would Brent be willing to assign them to be the list-manager/ moderator? -- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 21:57:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA10754 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Apr 1995 21:49:24 -0700 Received: from westweb.com (www.westweb.com [192.207.47.87]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id XAA10233 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:27:18 -0800 Received: from localhost (klg@localhost) by westweb.com (8.6.5/8.6.6) id XAA15197 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:21:36 -0800 From: "Kevin L. Gross" Message-Id: <199504010721.XAA15197@westweb.com> Subject: Help! Digest goes to List too To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:21:35 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1724 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Help! I've run out of ideas. I've tried to set up Majordomo lists using the _Managing_Internet_Information_Services_ book as an example. I have several lists that seem to be working well except for a couple of things: 1. The digest gets sent to not only the digest list, but to the regular list as well. This is what the aliases (minus owner-*) look like: planb: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l planb -h westweb.com \ planb-outgoing" planb-approval: owner-planb planb-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb, planb-archive, "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l planb-digest \ planb-digest-outgoing" planb-archive: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f \ /usr/local/majordomo/archive/planb" planb-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb" planb-digest: planb planb-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb-digest planb-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l planb-digest" planb-digest-approval: planb-approval 2. When I try to use the request-answer program in Majordomo1.93, there is no response at all. When I run this command: echo "subscribe klg planb" | /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb I get this error: Undefined subroutine "main'lopen" called at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo.pl line 229, line 1. That sub is defined in shlock.pl but I get a still different error after adding this line to majordomo.pl: require 'shlock.pl'; Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS: ***************************************************************** " " -- Marcel Marceau From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 05:57:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id FAA18755 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 05:46:27 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA18749; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 05:46:23 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA11138; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:46:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:46:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Roger Burns Subject: what's on-topic? To: List Managers list , List Managers list , mcb@GreatCircle.COM, Brent Chapman cc: "Kevin L. Gross" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this list. -- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Mar 1995 23:21:35 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin L. Gross To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Help! Digest goes to List too Hi, Help! I've run out of ideas. I've tried to set up Majordomo lists using the _Managing_Internet_Information_Services_ book as an example. I have several lists that seem to be working well except for a couple of things: 1. The digest gets sent to not only the digest list, but to the regular list as well. This is what the aliases (minus owner-*) look like: planb: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l planb -h westweb.com \ planb-outgoing" planb-approval: owner-planb planb-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb, planb-archive, "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l planb-digest \ planb-digest-outgoing" planb-archive: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -a -m -f \ /usr/local/majordomo/archive/planb" planb-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb" planb-digest: planb planb-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/planb-digest planb-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l planb-digest" planb-digest-approval: planb-approval 2. When I try to use the request-answer program in Majordomo1.93, there is no response at all. When I run this command: echo "subscribe klg planb" | /usr/local/majordomo/wrapper request-answer planb I get this error: Undefined subroutine "main'lopen" called at /usr/local/majordomo/majordomo.pl line 229, line 1. That sub is defined in shlock.pl but I get a still different error after adding this line to majordomo.pl: require 'shlock.pl'; Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -Kevin L. Gross klg@westweb.com Disclaim THIS: ***************************************************************** " " -- Marcel Marceau From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 06:27:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA19017 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:05:33 -0700 Received: from ns.onramp.net (ns.onramp.net [199.1.11.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA19012 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:05:29 -0700 Received: from [199.1.11.179] (stemmons15.onramp.net [199.1.11.179]) by ns.onramp.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id IAA03611 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:05:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:05:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: vick@Onramp.NET (Bill Vick) Subject: List Response Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm a newbie so please bear with my basic question. I have a list (digest) that goes out to 1,000 subscribers. I want to set it up so a subscriber can send back a number of a article or document recapped in the digest and automatically receive it something like fax on demand. Is this possible with majordomo? I know its being done with other kinds of lists but do not have a clue where or how to begin to implement this. Any help, ideas or suggestions greatly welcomed. Thanks - Bill Vick From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 06:57:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA20231 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:44:40 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA20226 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 06:44:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 95 9:47:38 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Roger Burns cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: what's on-topic? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger Burns >Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers >like me welcome on this list? I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list. >like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once >more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this >list. That would be nice. Do me a favor and drop me a note if it actually happens, OK? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 09:01:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA24457 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:42:25 -0700 Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA24452 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:42:19 -0700 Received: from se.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA25909 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:42:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199504101542.AA25909@cs.umb.edu> To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Cc: Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: How to keep on topic. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:47:38 EDT." <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:42:17 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes: >Roger Burns >>Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers >>like me welcome on this list? > >I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal >with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be >bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list. > >>like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once >>more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this >>list. > >That would be nice. Do me a favor and drop me a note if it actually happens, >OK? Ok, this is a valid question. How do we deal with off topic postings? Is running to moderation the answer? How about automated filtering in the list management software? Looking for certain key words etc. Granted this is also moderation of a form, but seem to me to be more managable that total moderation. Is it a matter of education? As far as education, what I have been doing with the majordomo posts, is responding to the sender saying: Your post seems to deal with majordomo. Please send your message to majordomo-users@greatcirce.com, and NOT to list-managers@greatcircle.com. Hey if the current maintainer of majordomo telling them to post to the right list won't help, what will 8-). So is the above sufficient? Do you use a more strongly worded (%^$^#@#) response and shift the top row of typewriter keys 8-). Or is this something that can/should be done by end users using a delivery program such as procmail, deliver etc to search for "listname list-managers and found word majordomo" in incomming mail and dispose of properly. -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-7227 x337 (617) 487-3937 (Direct) Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 =============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 10:01:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA25887 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:47:36 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA25882; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:47:32 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:48:00 -0800 To: "John P. Rouillard" , Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: How to keep on topic. Cc: Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com, mcb@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:42 AM 4/10/95, John P. Rouillard wrote: >In message <9504100947.aa02530@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>, >Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes: >>Roger Burns >>>Again we're seeing off-topic material. Are non-majordomo list managers >>>like me welcome on this list? Absolutely! >>I dunno. I just unsubbed. I have better things to do with my time than deal >>with people who subscribe to a list called list managers and can't be >>bothered to send THEIR mail to the proper list. >> >>>like me welcome on this list? I'm cc'ing this to Brent & others once >>>more, in hopes of getting a response to my request for moderation of this >>>list. We're considering it. The problem is, we're so buried around here right now that we don't even have time to consider ways to get unburied... I'll talk to MCB about it this week, and see what we can come up with. >Hey if the current maintainer of majordomo telling them to post to the >right list won't help, what will 8-). So is the above sufficient? Do >you use a more strongly worded (%^$^#@#) response and shift the top >row of typewriter keys 8-). > >Or is this something that can/should be done by end users using a >delivery program such as procmail, deliver etc to search for "listname >list-managers and found word majordomo" in incomming mail and dispose >of properly. I'm beginning to wish for a general-purpose regular-expression-matching rejection filter in Majordomo, where I could specify regular expressions on a per-list basis that should kick messages out for list-owner approval. There's already a fixed regular expression check in the guts of the code for keywords like "subscribe", to catch misdirected administrivia; I want the regular expression list brought out where the list manager can edit it. There are a number of circumstances where I'd use this (for instance, looking for Majordomo discussions in List-Managers, as mentioned above; also, looking for "Subject:.*satan" to stifle flame wars in Firewalls, looking for certain addresses or Received: lines to kill posting loops, etc.). -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 10:31:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA26194 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:02:28 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA26189 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:02:23 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:02:52 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Revised List-Managers charter; everyone should read Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've revised the charter statement for List-Managers to reflect the long-standing policy that questions about particular software packages (such as Majordomo, ListProc, LISTSERV, etc.) should be posted to the list dedicated to that package, NOT to List-Managers. We're in danger of destroying a valuable resource; folks who've contributed much to past discussions are unsubscribing from List-Managers because they're fed up with these misdirected support inquiries. My suggestions to everyone about how to handle the misdirected questions: respond by email to the originator directing them to the proper forum. Do NOT include List-Managers in your reply; that will only make the volume there worse. Do NOT answer the originator's question; they should not be rewarded for their mistake. Here is the revised charter: >This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet >mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms, >techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about >specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list >dedicated to that particular package). > >Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for >instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate >for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the >mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, >for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the >documentation that came with the package to find out where the support >list for that package is hosted. > >This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session >at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long >Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 12:00:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA02028 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 11:50:31 -0700 Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-hg.math.ethz.ch [129.132.104.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA27415 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 06:15:26 -0700 From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id PAA01379 for ; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:15:32 +0200 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id PAA12821; Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:15:25 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 15:15:25 +0200 Message-Id: <199504041315.PAA12821@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Questions: bounces FAQ, 'host unknown' bounces Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have recently agreed to take over a mailing list called "CHURCHPLANTERS" which targets missionaries and the like, i.e. people who don't necessarily know much about computers, networks, etc. For this reason I want to be a 'friendly' list admin, who tries to help people whose e-mail bounces as far as possible. I'm new to running mailing list, and I'm just figuring out some things. Is there a 'bounces FAQ' list somewhere? I have recently found out that with some of my 'host unknown' bounces I can actually telnet to the mailport of the recipient's machine like in the example below. What exactly is the reason for the 'host unknown' bounces under these circumstances? Norbert bollow@vaden:bollow> telnet ANSYS.COM 25 Trying 192.104.24.51 ... Connected to ansys.com. Escape character is '^]'. 220 fea1.ansys.com.ansys.com Sendmail 4.1/SMI-4.1 ready at Tue, 4 Apr 95 08:49:53 EDT helo vaden.math.ethz.ch 250 fea1.ansys.com.ansys.com Hello vaden.math.ethz.ch, pleased to meet you mail from: 250 ... Sender ok vrfy stevej 250 rcpt to: stevej 250 stevej... Recipient ok data 354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself Greetings in name of Jesus! As "list owner" of the CHURCHPLANTERS list I receive error messages when e-mail to one of the addresses on the CHURCHPLANTERS mailing list cannot be delivered. The listserver has registered your address as stevej@ANSYS.COM However, e-mail to that address bounces with error messages like the following: Error-For: stevej@ANSYS.COM Error-Code: 2 Error-Text: %MX-F-NOHOST, no such host -Retry count exceeded -(Via ANSYS.COM) I would suggest that you bring the problem to the attention of your local computer experts, and ask them to help you. Please notify me as soon as the problem has been sorted out. Until then I'll have to remove your address from the mailing list. (I'm sending this mail via interactive telnet to the mailport of your machine, if you wonder how it is possible at all for me to send you e-mail in these circumstances.) God bless, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list. Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome. PGP public key available by 'finger bollow@gatekeeper.math.ethz.ch'. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 15:31:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA10769 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:18:30 -0700 Received: from cs.umb.edu (cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA10760; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:18:18 -0700 Received: from se.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA16298 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:34 -0400 Message-Id: <199504102218.AA16298@cs.umb.edu> To: Brent@greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman) Cc: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer , Roger Burns , list-managers@greatcircle.com, mcb@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to keep on topic. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:48:00 -0800." Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Brent Chapman writes: >I'm beginning to wish for a general-purpose regular-expression-matching >rejection filter in Majordomo, where I could specify regular expressions on >a per-list basis that should kick messages out for list-owner approval. Um, Brent, this list isn't majordomo-workers, its list-managers ;-). That's why I wasn't more explicit in my original message 8-). >There are a number of circumstances where I'd use this (for instance, >looking for Majordomo discussions in List-Managers, as mentioned above; >also, looking for "Subject:.*satan" to stifle flame wars in Firewalls, >looking for certain addresses or Received: lines to kill posting loops, >etc.). Ok, so we have one vote for some sort of list manager administerable text filters. In the interest of research, and not mentioning my favorite MLM, how many packages out there offer this type of functionality? Also what level of selectivity would be required? Obviously selection by header field, received, subject, the pseudo header body which is the body of the message, and the pseudoheader any which is anywhere in the message. Are there other types of filters you would like to see in you MLM package? In specifying the filters, would unix shell type patterns be sufficient (i.e. alphanumeric characters and [a-z] for the letters a-z, ? for any character, and * for multiple characters)? So the Subject:.*satan would be written as: subject nocase *satan* to force the message with the word satan anywhere inthe subject to be bounced. The filter: subject nocase satan would only bounce a subject that had only the word satan in it (in regexp it would be /^satan$/). By the same token something like: body nocase,nomatch,lines=5 *firewall* would cause any message that does not have the word firewall somewhere in the first 5 lines of the body to be bounced. And of course the following filter would be put into list-managers: any nocase majordomo Oops, I guess this message wouldn't make it through now would it 8-). If the method above were used, would we need explicit beginning and end of line markers (as opposed to the implict ones that are there by default? Are full regular expressions needed? Quips, comments evasions, questions and answers welcome. Flames to /dev/null. -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-7227 x337 (617) 487-3937 (Direct) Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 =============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 18:27:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA15868 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:13:01 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA15863 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:12:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199504110112.SAA15863@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2971; Tue, 11 Apr 95 03:09:31 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 9166; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:09:30 +0200 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 03:05:22 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: How to keep on topic. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:18:36 -0400 "John P. Rouillard" said: >And of course the >following filter would be put into list-managers: > > any nocase majordomo > >Oops, I guess this message wouldn't make it through now would it 8-). You got it. That's why such filters are next to useless. Another reason is that people aren't stupid. If they can't say "Majordomo" they'll say "M*jordomo" or "the M word" or whatever. They'll come up with new ways faster than you can filter them. Filters make sense when you're trying to catch mistakes from newbies who don't understand the difference between list and MLM address, or genuine one-time mistakes in general. Filters don't work for censorship. Guess where "durn", "darn" and the like come from? :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 19:56:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA19075 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:29:01 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (gagme.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA19069 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:28:58 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0ryVkm-000FDZC; Mon, 10 Apr 95 21:32 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: How to keep on topic. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:32:31 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199504102218.AA16298@cs.umb.edu> from "John P. Rouillard" at Apr 10, 95 06:18:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 581 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Rouillard asked, | Ok, so we have one vote for some sort of list manager administerable | text filters. In the interest of research, and not mentioning my | favorite MLM, how many packages out there offer this type of | functionality? I know of one (and, like John, I won't name names) that has pre-coded places for adding such extra processing if one wants or needs to. But as Eric Thomas posted, it would catch posts from people who don't know the rules, not from those who know them and work hard to circumvent them. The only way to handle that reliably is moderation. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 21:56:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA22101 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:47:11 -0700 Received: from bdt.bdt.com (bdt.com [140.174.173.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id VAA22095 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:47:08 -0700 Received: by bdt.bdt.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.4) id ; Mon, 10 Apr 95 21:50 PDT Received: from noident@bakalite.bdt.com(204.182.11.62) by bdt via smap (V1.3bdt) id sma002157; Mon Apr 10 21:49:46 1995 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:46:18 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bakalite@bdt.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Hello and Heeeelp! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, a bit of introduction. I manage a mailing list (for about 8 months) that deals with issues relating to macintosh digital audio workstations (daw-mac@netcom.com). It's been a lot of fun, but there have been a few problems. Netcom is oblivious to my mail, they periodically wipe or mangle the directory of the list, the mail is slow... you get the idea. What's more, they dont' provide www or slip, so I'm looking for another provider who will host my list. The problem is that I need a reliable provider, because I don't want to move the list around too many times (pointers on how to do this painlessly are greatly appreciated). Soo, you ask, why is this guy not following nettiquette and hanging out for a while before posting to a list he just subscribed to? The reason is that I am thinking of going with "community connection", a Berkeley based provider, but I wan tto make sure there isn't an obvious better choice. If there is some amazingly cool provider for mailing lists I could even keep my account at bdt and telnet in if it isn't local to Oakland (where I live). THanks in advance for any pointers. PS did I mention that netcom is still using version 1.6 something of majordomo and doesn't support dogests? (they do allow 5 lists per account though). Paul Braunbehrens Bakalite@bdt.com List Administrator daw-mac@netcom.com Ask me about the DAW-MAC mailing list From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 22:56:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA23012 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:50:16 -0700 Received: from jazzie.com (p8.jazzie.com [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA23007 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:50:13 -0700 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0ryXsh-000OXGC; Mon, 10 Apr 95 21:48 PDT Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: Specifying List Filters To: rouilj@cs.umb.edu (John P. Rouillard) Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 21:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199504102218.AA16298@cs.umb.edu> from "John P. Rouillard" at Apr 10, 95 06:18:36 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 527 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Rouillard asked: > Are full regular expressions needed? It's hard to imagine being truly satisfied with anything less. Indeed, customizable filters based on installable macros, rather like any decent text editor provides, sure would be nice. (And while we're at it, can we standardize on Perl as the macro scripting language? ;-) -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028 Sean's Home Page Serving the Net since 1990. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 04:56:50 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA27005 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 04:54:40 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA27000 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 04:54:36 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HP7GKWCKCG004GIN@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:46 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HP7GKA7UCG009XF8@AC.DAL.CA>; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:15 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA20409; Tue, 11 Apr 95 08:54:18 -0300 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:18 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Getting off the topic To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9504111154.AA20409@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-length: 1930 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I seem to have missed something here. Eric Thomas writes: >You got it. That's why such filters are next to useless. Another reason >is that people aren't stupid. If they can't say "Majordomo" they'll say >"M*jordomo" or "the M word" or whatever. They'll come up with new ways >faster than you can filter them. Filters make sense when you're trying to >catch mistakes from newbies who don't understand the difference between >list and MLM address, or genuine one-time mistakes in general. Filters >don't work for censorship. Guess where "durn", "darn" and the like come >from? :-) I thought that the major problem we were dealing with was posters who sent Majordomo posts to this list because they didn't understand that the Majordomo list was the right place for such postings, not with vicious and malicious hackers who are trying to subvert this list by posting dumb questions about Majordomo. Sure filters don't work for censorship, but are we trying to implement censorship or do we just want to discourage inappropriate postings? Actually I think that Eric's post suggests a reasonable solution. Why not add a filter to bounce messages that contain the word "Majordomo"? Every so often we could post a reminder that this is not the right place to post Majordomo questions, but that if any subscriber wants to refer to Majordomo (as both Eric and I have done) we should use a code phrase like the ones that Eric suggests? Sure anyone can maliciously circumvent this, but it would be clear that they knew the rules and were deliberately breaking them. Of course if a lot of people do that, then we may have no other choice than to go along with Eric and impose real censorship. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Div., Bedford Inst. Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Personal InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 07:57:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA00557 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 07:30:11 -0700 Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (newhamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA00549 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 07:30:08 -0700 Received: by hamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26981; Tue, 11 Apr 95 10:34:25 EDT Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:34:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Michelle Murrain Subject: An interesting AOL thing... To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199504110800.BAA24263@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it. Anyway, I thought some list managers might want to know. Michelle --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email and finger: School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu Amherst, MA 01002 URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 09:04:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA03383 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:39:37 -0700 Received: from vhipub.vhi.com (VHIPUB.VHI.COM [167.18.73.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA03371 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:39:32 -0700 Received: from [167.18.110.3] by vhipub.vhi.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA03082; Tue, 11 Apr 95 11:39:06 -0400 Received: from paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com by av2.vrx.vhi.com (5.4R2.10/1.3) id AA11257; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:39:47 -0700 X-Organization: RxNet, Inc. Fresno, CA 800/447-9638 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu From: Paul-Joseph de Werk Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... X-Originating-Host: paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1995Apr11.083943-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com> Date: 11 Apr 1995 08:39:38 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: BWMail for Windows Version 3.2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Michelle Murrain - uttered: | | Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:34:25 -0400 (EDT) | Subject: An interesting AOL thing... | | I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of | AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there | is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list | of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard | about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a | semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get | hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent | mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it. If I read this correctly I think I can explain what the person meant. Let's assume that these three people are on a mailing list: person_a@aol.com person_b@aol.com person_c@somesite.somewhere.else What I think happens is that AOL stores the messages in a global pool and tags it as being for person_a and person_b. Now, person_a decides press the "Status" button. What they get is a list containing person_a and person_b. Person_c is not on the list because they are not on AOL. The "status" button doesn't return the people on the mailing list, but the people at AOL that received that particular posting. (If each person was sent a separate copy (mail person_a@aol.com; mail person_b@aol.com) then the "status" button wouldn't work. It only work when they are sent carbon copies (mail person_a@aol.com, person_b@aol.com). I guess AOL uses a tagged message format to conserve on disk space. I guess they assumed a lot of people would be using mailing lists. -Paul __________________________________________________________________________ [ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ] [ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ] [ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ] [ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ] [_______________________________\__________________________________________] From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 09:58:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA05141 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:36:39 -0700 Received: from genome.lbl.gov (genome.lbl.gov [131.243.224.80]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA05134 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:36:35 -0700 Received: from dnamo.lbl.gov.hgc by genome.lbl.gov (4.1/1.39) id AA00684; Tue, 11 Apr 95 09:36:22 PDT Received: by dnamo.lbl.gov.hgc (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06271; Tue, 11 Apr 95 09:34:19 PDT Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Donn F. Davy" Subject: Filter off-topic msgs To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wonder if reg exps is enough to filter out off-topic stuff. This appears to me to be a _very_ key need in online communications of all sorts, not just mailing lists: i.e. since there is an overwhelming amount of material of _potential_ interest out there, itself hidden in a torrent of less interesting stuff, most everyone needs agents with the savvy to figure out what I want and get the good stuff. Isn't this a job for a neural net, trained to individual needs, maybe assisted by regular expression specs? The software that could provide such a service in a general way, for multiple applications might be the next killer-app, even more useful than Web-browsers and Satan. Anyone heard of such a thing? Perhaps we (list-managers) are the environment out of which it could start. Donn Davy, Human Genome Center, Lawrence Berkeley Lab From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 10:01:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA05548 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:53:16 -0700 Received: from sunshine.eushc.org (sunshine.eushc.org [163.246.96.102]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA05543 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:53:13 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP id MAA11342; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:53:36 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id MAA16723; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:49:44 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 11 Apr 95 12:23:01 EDT for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: <60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 95 12:16:28 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Murrain writes: > I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of > AOL subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there > is a button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list > of all of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard > about this I got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a > semi-private list, and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get > hold of the subscribers from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent > mail from the list first, but I still see problematic aspects to it. > If this is true, it is not so cool. Even if this "status" is restricted to the subscribers of a given list, I see problems for those people who do not wish to have their subscription status known (for whatever reason). Many MLMs provide options to turn "review" off so that a subscriber can stay off the listserver's own review lists. How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some pains to keep such "status" updated... And isn't this some form of invasion of privacy etc... so to speak. After all this is email, even though it is a distribution list. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 11:27:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08606 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:16:26 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (gagme.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA08601 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:16:13 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0rykXc-000FE8C; Tue, 11 Apr 95 13:19 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... To: gess@knex.mind.org Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 13:19:56 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org> from "Gess Shankar" at Apr 11, 95 12:16:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1783 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar asked, | How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some | pains to keep such "status" updated... What they probably display is a list of the other recipients of that letter; you might even be able to try the `status' icon on a letter addressed to three AOL accounts, not through a mailing list, and see the other two names. I HIGHLY doubt that it consults the list maintainer's own database. What if the list is run at a UUCP site and has no direct Internet link, for example? If any AOL users who received the message have quit the mailing list since it was sent, or if any other AOL customers have joined it since that message was sent, the information would be out of date, since it would reflect only who else on AOL received that specific message, not who else on AOL will get the next message that comes from the list. MCI Mail used to convert all MCI Mail addresses in Bcc: headers to TO: headers; if you subscribed to a mailing list from an MCI Mail account, your mail from the list would include a TO: header for the list (or the original addressee if it was carboned to the list) plus a TO: header to you and an additional TO: header for every other MCI Mail account subscribed to the list. MCI Mail has stopped that practice; the Bcc: line to you appears in your mail as TO: but other Bcc: headers are not shown at all. | And isn't this some form of invasion of privacy etc... so to speak. In my opinion, it is. In a related opinion of mine, I'm sure that if MLM's that offer `review' commands or their equivalent had concealment as the default setting, just about no one would take the trouble to set noconceal. David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 12:02:23 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08990 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:29:56 -0700 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA08984 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 11:29:53 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA245245013; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:30:14 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:30:14 -0400 Message-Id: <950411143011_79517703@aol.com> To: mpmns@hamp.hampshire.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-04-11 11:02:11 EDT, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu writes: >I found out from a subscriber of one of my lists (the one with lots of AOL >subscribers) that if one is reading mail from a mailing list, there is a >button, apparently, called "status" which when pressed, gives a list of all >of the subscribers to a list who are on AOL. When I first heard about this I >got quite upset, because this list is supposed to be a semi-private list, >and I was concerned that a non-subscriber could get hold of the subscribers >from AOL. It turns out that you have to be sent mail from the list first, but >I still see problematic aspects to it. > >Anyway, I thought some list managers might want to know. I'm afraid you've been duped, Michelle. The "Status" button is only available in the "Mail You've Sent" mailbox of AOL members. It only applies to those addresses who have specifically been included in the To: and CC: fields of a piece of outgoing mail, and only in the case of AOL members does it provide information (that being when the mail was read or ignored by the recipient). Internet addresses always show "not applicable", since we obviously cannot determine whether or not an Internet recipient has read a given piece of mail. The only way the list of subscribers can seen is if the entire list of subscribers is in the e-mail header. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 14:27:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA16550 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:22:47 -0700 Received: from cesium.clock.org (cesium.clock.org [17.255.4.43]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA16545 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:22:44 -0700 Received: by cesium.clock.org with SMTP id <6951>; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:23:06 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:16:28 PDT." <60Fe4c1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 14:22:46 -0700 From: Jean Marie Diaz Message-Id: <95Apr11.142306pdt.6951@cesium.clock.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Gess Shankar Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:16:28 -0700 How does AOL collect these addresses? It seems they have to take some pains to keep such "status" updated... I suspect it's nothing more harrowing than the RCPT TO command in SMTP, which will generally put as many recipients as possible when transferring a single mail message. It would make sense for AOL to internally store a single copy of the message with all the recipients pointing to it, just as I imagine they would if a message was generated locally and sent to more than one local user. Disclaimer: I do not claim to know what AOL IS doing -- I offer a guess at what they might be doing. AMBAR From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 15:57:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA19207 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:40:33 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.130.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA19202 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:40:30 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) id PAA07783; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:40:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:40:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Bill Silvert cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting off the topic In-Reply-To: <9504111154.AA20409@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Apr 1995, Bill Silvert wrote: > Actually I think that Eric's post suggests a reasonable solution. Why > not add a filter to bounce messages that contain the word "Majordomo"? > Every so often we could post a reminder that this is not the right place > to post Majordomo questions, but that if any subscriber wants to refer > to Majordomo (as both Eric and I have done) we should use a code phrase > like the ones that Eric suggests? Sure anyone can maliciously > circumvent this, but it would be clear that they knew the rules and were > deliberately breaking them. Better yet, if a message has the word "majordomo" in it, send it to majordomo-users@greatcircle.com instead! Only half-joking.... Brian From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 11 22:56:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA26647 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:34:52 -0700 Received: from freeside.fc.net (freeside.fc.net [198.6.198.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id WAA26642; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 22:34:46 -0700 Received: (from kevintx@localhost) by freeside.fc.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) id AAA05372; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:36:35 -0500 From: Kevin at Freeside Support Message-Id: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net> Subject: best way to deliver large lists? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:36:34 -0500 (CDT) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1677 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes (though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way.. Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see.. * automatically remove "terminal" mail addresses (like "user unknown" or hosts that no longer exist), possibly after a few days of that.. * move others with delivery problems onto a "bounce" list where they have to stay until they confirm that their mail is working again and/or a certain amount of time (I understand Majordomo may already do this..) * sort easily deliverable mail addresses (and multiple addresses at the same mail host) toward the top of the list so these people can get each message swiftly without waiting on problematic addresses that happen to be ahead of them on the list. Am I dreaming? Thanks for any help or suggestions you can throw my way.. kevin -- kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net Freeside Communications 512-339-6094 (providing quality Internet access and services in beautiful Austin, Texas) From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 00:57:50 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id AAA29542 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 00:49:24 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA29654 for ; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 07:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199504111407.HAA29654@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4324; Tue, 11 Apr 95 16:03:05 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 9706; Tue, 11 Apr 1995 16:03:05 +0200 Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 15:58:46 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Getting off the topic To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Apr 1995 08:54:18 -0300 (ADT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The people who posted Majordomo questions to this list and that I contacted privately said they did it because noone answered their question on the Majordomo-user list. At any rate, the use of a filter seems totally counter productive to me. All you have to do to catch people who genuinely don't know is require people to subscribe before they can post, and add this at the top of the welcome message: ************************************************************************* ******** THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT LIST TO ASK MAJORDOMO QUESTIONS! ********* ************************************************************************* And then give info on where to post such questions, etc. This should be sufficient for any literate subscriber to understand that Majordomo questions are not wanted, without requiring "honest" subscribers to escape the word every time they want to mention Majordomo in passing. Automatic filters, like any other attempt to make computers second guess human beings, are bound to create more problems than they will solve. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 11:29:20 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA09938 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:13:42 -0700 Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA09932 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:13:38 -0700 Received: by hamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09403; Wed, 12 Apr 95 14:17:59 EDT Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:17:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Michelle Murrain Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199504120800.BAA29993@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Apr 1995 PMDAtropos@aol.com > I'm afraid you've been duped, Michelle. The "Status" button is only available > in the "Mail You've Sent" mailbox of AOL members. It only applies to those > addresses who have specifically been included in the To: and CC: fields of a > piece of outgoing mail, and only in the case of AOL members does it provide > information (that being when the mail was read or ignored by the recipient). > Internet addresses always show "not applicable", since we obviously cannot > determine whether or not an Internet recipient has read a given piece of > mail. > > The only way the list of subscribers can seen is if the entire list of > subscribers is in the e-mail header. Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the original message (who I trust, by the way, and is an AOL host of sorts) after I told them that someone from AOL said I was "duped": -------------------------- you can tell that high muckety muck they can kiss my ass :) right now, at this very instant i am logged on and the voice says "you've got mail". i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT. the way the new mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing. the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore. if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not. for example. on 4/12/95 at 7:30am [someone@somwhere.universe] sent a letter to [the list] entitled Slow Mo... when i selct that letter in my mailbox (hi-lite it) and click the status button, this is what i see: Addressee When Read [a list follows of AOL screen names and times if the letter was read.] ------------------ A note. This mailing list is managed by SmartList, and the names on the list ARE NOT in the To: or cc: headers! So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to others, this is a privacy issue. It turns out that my list is one big happy family, and lots of folks already know one another (the semi-privacy of the list is really to keep most people out). But for some other lists, this could be a major issue. Of course most list management software allows subscribers (and non-subscribers) to get the subscriber lists. But I think it is important that list managers at least have some sense of control over thier subscriber lists. As well, AOL is right now the largest single service provider. (If this were netcom, or genie, etc, for example it wouldn't be such an issue, since most of us have a very few folks from these services. But AOL I think most lists have many AOL folk). Michelle --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email and finger: School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu Amherst, MA 01002 URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:27:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10946 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:05:43 -0700 Received: from night.primate.wisc.edu (night.primate.wisc.edu [144.92.43.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10938 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:05:37 -0700 Received: by night.primate.wisc.edu; id OAA19770; 8.6.10/41.8; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:08:33 -0500 From: Software Development Message-Id: <199504121908.OAA19770@night.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists? To: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:08:33 -0600 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net> from "Kevin at Freeside Support" at Apr 12, 95 00:36:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1521 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large > ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from > time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes > (though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke > the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way.. > > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do > for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this > question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would > help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see.. I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of addresses, a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits the list up so that N domains appear in each section of addresses, and starts a sendmail for each one. This speeds up delivery time quite a bit because if you have connect to a host that's slow to respond, you only slow down the portion of the address list that's been assigned to that sendmail. The downside, of course, is that you end up with lots of sendmails soon after a message comes in. This can swamp a machine if you don't choose wisely how many domains each section of the address list gets. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:30:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA10816 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:58:53 -0700 Received: from vhipub.vhi.com (VHIPUB.VHI.COM [167.18.73.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA10810 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:58:49 -0700 Received: from [167.18.110.3] by vhipub.vhi.com with SMTP (5.65/1.2-eef) id AA09936; Wed, 12 Apr 95 14:58:27 -0400 Received: from paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com by av2.vrx.vhi.com (5.4R2.10/1.3) id AA27781; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 11:59:03 -0700 X-Organization: RxNet, Inc. Fresno, CA 800/447-9638 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu From: Paul-Joseph de Werk Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... X-Originating-Host: paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <1995Apr12.115902-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com> Date: 12 Apr 1995 11:58:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: BWMail for Windows Version 3.2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An ether being in cyberspace calling itself - Michelle Murrain - uttered: | | Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:17:59 -0400 (EDT) | Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... [... text deleted ...] | Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the | original message (who I trust, by the way, and is an AOL host of sorts) | after I told them that someone from AOL said I was "duped": | | -------------------------- | you can tell that high muckety muck they can kiss my ass :) | | right now, at this very instant i am logged on and the voice says "you've | got mail". i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox | opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it | is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT. the way the new | mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below | it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing. | the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore. | | if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button | i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read | their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not. | | for example. on 4/12/95 at 7:30am [someone@somwhere.universe] sent a | letter to [the list] entitled Slow Mo... when i selct that letter in my | mailbox (hi-lite it) and click the status button, this is what i see: | | Addressee When Read | | [a list follows of AOL screen names and times if the letter was read.] | | ------------------ It's like I stated before, When the *same* piece of email is sent to multiple people on AOL. AOL places it in a shared area and tags it with each of the users that it goes to, thus leaving only one copy of the email on the system. What the status button does is display all the names in that tag list. In order to make it a private email the list server would need to send a *separate* copy to each user on AOL. The drawback is that internet traffic would increase, assuming multiple people per site, and the system of the list server would bog down on sendmail processes, one per each user in the list. | A note. This mailing list is managed by SmartList, and the names on the | list ARE NOT in the To: or cc: headers! | | So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to | others, this is a privacy issue. It turns out that my list is one big | happy family, and lots of folks already know one another (the | semi-privacy of the list is really to keep most people out). But for some | other lists, this could be a major issue. Of course most list management | software allows subscribers (and non-subscribers) to get the subscriber | lists. But I think it is important that list managers at least have some | sense of control over thier subscriber lists. As well, AOL is right now | the largest single service provider. (If this were netcom, or genie, etc, | for example it wouldn't be such an issue, since most of us have a very | few folks from these services. But AOL I think most lists have many AOL | folk). It's a design problem of AOL (hence I don't subscribe to them). Yes, it is effiecient in disk storage, but having that *status* button breaks any right to privacy. I'd complain to AOL to have the button removed from the screen on the grounds of "Invasion of Privacy". But, then again, I can easily get a list of subscribers off of several listservers just by sending the right request. (Or by asking sendmail on the list's system to expand the out-going alias). But at least it isn't as simple as clicking on an icon. #include __________________________________________________________________________ [ Paul-Joseph de Werk, B.S. \ RX Net, Inc. ] [ Systems Analyst II \ MIS Dept. ] [ \ vrx: paul@av2.vrx.vhi.com ] [ \ inet: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com ] [_______________________________\__________________________________________] From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 12:58:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA11751 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:32:15 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA11706 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:31:18 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24213 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:31:03 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA21056 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:30:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:30:53 -0700 From: Bruce Perens Message-Id: <199504121930.AA21056@bolero.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Michelle Murrain > Well, this is the response I got back from the AOL person who sent me the > original message... > > i select "read new mail" from the mail menu and my mailbox > opens, showing me a list of all of my new mail. today, like most days it > is full of [listname] mail, NONE OF WHICH I HAVE SENT. > > if i select *any* one of the letters in my box and click the "status" button > i get a list of aol subscribers to [the list] and when they read > their mail. it is the same whether "i" sent the mail to [the list] or not. There is a simple way to get around this. Make sure your list server generates a message to one recepient ONLY for each AOL subscriber (or for each subscriber if you have a small list). It is simple for AOL to keep a list of all the names provided to the SMTP "RCPT TO" command for a particular message. If you connect to AOL's SMTP and say "RCPT TO: user1, user2, user3", they will be able to see each others names. If you connect three times and say "RCPT TO: userN" each time, they won't be able to tell each user about the other user's names. Bruce Perens From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:03:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA12304 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:48:58 -0700 Received: from research.att.com (research.att.com [192.20.225.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA12297 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:48:55 -0700 Received: by research.att.com; Wed Apr 12 15:43 EDT 1995 Received: from lexicon.info.att.com by big.info.att.com; id AA11617; Wed, 12 Apr 95 15:43:32 EDT Posted-Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lexicon.info.att.com (4.1/4.7) id AA26473; Wed, 12 Apr 95 15:43:31 EDT From: tal@big.att.com (Tom Limoncelli) Message-Id: <9504121943.AA26473@lexicon.info.att.com> Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists? To: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199504120536.AAA05372@freeside.fc.net> from "Kevin at Freeside Support" at Apr 12, 95 00:36:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 835 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do The standard answer to this question is, "Install Sendmail 8.x because it does all the sorting, grouping, etc. that you can imagine". Huge mailing lists suddenly use much less bandwidth because of all of this. If you have done this and are still seeing problems, ask your question again with more details. --tal -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@big.att.com (work) -- tal@plts.org (play) "Good ideas are not adopted automatically. They must be driven into practice with courageous impatience." --Admiral Hyman G. Rickover From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:10:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA12330 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:50:41 -0700 Received: from yukon.cren.org (yukon.cren.org [198.76.81.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA12325 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:50:36 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with ESMTP id <79760-1>; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:50:33 -0400 To: Software Development cc: kevintx@fc.net (Kevin at Freeside Support), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:08:33 MDT." <199504121908.OAA19770@night.primate.wisc.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <17963.797716227.1@yukon.cren.org> Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:50:27 -0400 Message-ID: <17964.797716227@yukon.cren.org> From: Marco Hernandez Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Two of the lists here are (what I consider to be) particularly large > > ones.. 1500 to 2000 addresses each.. that have given me headaches from > > time to time. The mail queue gets large, running sendmail processes > > (though they seem to spend most of their time just sitting around) choke > > the system into swap, etc. There must be a better way.. > > That's not large :-) > > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large > > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that > > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after > > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do > > for me? I happen to use Majordomo 1.93 but I didn't consider this > > question to be Majordomo specific. Maybe some sendmail tweaking would > > help a lot. Some general things that I'd like to see.. > I run several lists (some over 35k subscribers) using the commercial listproc and ZMAILER as my mta. I've found though that the latest sendmail seems to do OK if you have enough RAM on your machine. What is enough ... 196+Meg for a large server would not be unreasonable if you want good performance. My limitted experience has shown me that Solaris (of SYSV) vs. SUNOS is the better of the two under heavy sendmail loads. The problem I've encountered with sendmail had to do with feeding it 110k recipeints in the time span of 40 minutes. This cuased it to fork too many processes and begin heavy paging/swapping. If the load is spread out, it seems to do OK. It appeared that Solaris had a superior paging subsystem and that made it hold it's own under heavy loads ... One site/customer is using sendmail to manage over 850 lists for a weekly total recipeints count of 1.4M. > I use Keith Moore's "bulk_mailer" program. It takes a list of addresses, > a message file, sorts the address list by domain, splits the list up > so that N domains appear in each section of addresses, and starts a sendmail > for each one. > Again, I think a good Mailing list manager will do this which makes delivery a bit more efficient. Although there is a processing penalty on the sending side, especially if the list of recipients is large and very dynamic. > This speeds up delivery time quite a bit because if you have connect to > a host that's slow to respond, you only slow down the portion of the address > list that's been assigned to that sendmail. > > The downside, of course, is that you end up with lots of sendmails soon > after a message comes in. This can swamp a machine if you don't choose > wisely how many domains each section of the address list gets. > Another way to do it is to control the number of recipeints per sendmail invocation. If your Mailing List Manager can connect to the localhost's sendmail and send it mail in groups of 100+ then you end up with less overhead ... i.e. HELO localhost Mail From: RCPT To: RCPT To: . . . and so on ... /Marco From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:27:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12544 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:07:44 -0700 Received: from jazzie.com (p8.jazzie.com [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA12539 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:07:40 -0700 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0rz7ky-000OXPC; Wed, 12 Apr 95 12:07 PDT Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: A frightening AOL thing... To: paul%av2.vrx.vhi.com@vhipub.vhi.com (Paul-Joseph de Werk) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <1995Apr12.115902-0700@paul.mis.vrx.vhi.com> from "Paul-Joseph de Werk" at Apr 12, 95 11:58:55 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1152 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul-Joseph wrote: > I'd complain to AOL to have the button removed > from the screen on the grounds of "Invasion of Privacy". It does seem to primarily be an issue between AOL and the customers for whom it provides this (dis-)service. It also secondarily effects list managers, though. If any are truly concerned, consider hacking your mail-handling software to separately deliver copies of the message to each AOL recipient, possibly with distinct Message-ID: headers or something. Of course this might defeat any attempt by AOL to save disk space by storing only one copy of the message. On the other hand, if they didn't fix the privacy issue (which I'm pretty sure they will) they would deserve what they got.... Finally, AOL users who are truly concerned might consider using a mail-forwarding address on another system, so that list mail would first go elsewhere on the Internet, and then get forwarded on to their AOL mailbox as a separate message. -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com +1 206 443 2028 Sean's Home Page Serving the Net since 1990. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:57:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA13141 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:28:24 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA13136 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 13:28:21 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA216168528; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:28:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:28:49 -0400 Message-Id: <950412162843_80915037@aol.com> To: mpmns@hamp.hampshire.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: An interesting AOL thing... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-04-12 14:37:15 EDT, mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu writes: >the way the new >mail window looks on a mac is that you see the list of new mail and below >it, still within the new mail window, there are several buttons showing. >the buttons are: read, delete, status, keep as new and ignore. AHA. This explains (most of) everything. I don't use my Mac very often, and the "Status" button described to you does NOT show up on the Windows client (which is what 75% of AOL members use). I checked by subbing to a list briefly, and *some* of the AOL members of the list *did* get listed when I clicked on Status (some = half a dozen, a small percentage of the total number of AOL users subscribed to the list). Why this is happening is beyond me, but it should not be there at all and certainly should not be uncovering names of people! I will be bringing this matter up with the Mail system and Mac Client people as soon as I send this message out. My apologies to you and your informant! >So, what's up here? If individuals on the list do not want to be known to >others, this is a privacy issue. [ ... ] I agree; I run a list on which all members are "concealed", and this snafu violates the privacy of the list. I don't know who implemented the change, or when it was implemented, but I'm going to do my best to get it taken out immediately. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 15:27:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA15242 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:24:40 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.130.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA15232; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:24:24 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) id PAA07397; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:24:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 15:24:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Tom Limoncelli cc: Kevin at Freeside Support , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: best way to deliver large lists? In-Reply-To: <9504121943.AA26473@lexicon.info.att.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Apr 1995, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > > Does anyone here have suggestions for getting messages out to a large > > subscriber list (which invariably contains undeliverable addresses that > > seem to *drag* sendmail's delivery to the entire list down time after > > time) with a little more efficiency/brains than sendmail has wanted to do > > The standard answer to this question is, "Install Sendmail 8.x > because it does all the sorting, grouping, etc. that you can > imagine". Huge mailing lists suddenly use much less bandwidth > because of all of this. Er, yes, it uses ESMTP, but you still have to do delivery to N domains, and given that it takes an average of M seconds per domain (which given a fat enough pipe doesn't vary with what else is going over that pipe) that's N*M seconds to complete the job. A better solution is to split up the lists into X well-balanced sublists, so that delivery takes N*M/X seconds instead (modulo variations in delivery time based on what heuristic you used to create those sublists). Sounds like that's what bulk_mailer does. Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 19:27:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA17459 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:09:48 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-1.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA17454; Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:09:36 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 19:09:04 -0800 To: Roger Burns From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #75 Cc: Peter Bowyer , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, mcb@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:19 4/7/95, Roger Burns wrote: >On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Peter Bowyer wrote: > >> No, I'm not being lazy by not changing the reply subject; I'm *really* >>writing >> a reply about last night's digest. >> >> It contained *no* on-top information whatsoever. None. Not a scrap. > >> Come on, List managers - this used to be a good, low-volume, high-quality >> list. What can we do to restore it to its former glory? > >I'd like to see a hands-on list-manager be assigned to monitor this list >daily and to notify posters when their messages are off-topic. Yes, >moderation. If an appropriate volunteer were available to take on this >responsibility, would Brent be willing to assign them to be the list-manager/ >moderator? I've thought about it, and I've decided that I'm uncomfortable turning over the list to somebody I don't know. So, I guess my answer is "it depends on who it is". One problem with moderation is that it's essentially a permanent decision, and it's a big commitment on the part of the moderator. If you moderate a list, people come to rely on it being moderated; if the moderator gets too busy to deal with it, or goes out of town for a couple of weeks, or something, the list suffers. Finding a replacement moderator, temporarily or permanently, can be a big hassle. All of the GreatCircle.COM lists currently follow an "occasionally moderated" model. That is, they're normally unmoderated, but we moderate them on a temporary basis when necessary in order to quench flame wars or kill mailer loops. Originally, I did all the moderation. As my tutorial and consulting business grew (to the point where I'm now on the road 2-3 weeks each month), I became unable to keep up with the load. I thought I'd solved this problem by hiring Michael Berch on a part-time basis to act as GreatCircle.COM's Postmaster, Majordomo-Owner, *-Approval, and so forth. Now, however, Michael's other activities (in particular, his launch of Infobahn magazine; see http://www.postmodern.com for details) have reduced the amount of time he has available for me, and made it much less regular (he can't do GreatCircle.COM work every day, the way he used to), and the problem has come up again. I don't think throwing another person at it (even a volunteer) is the right answer; that merely postpones the problem, and ensures that we'll have to address it again (and again and again) in the future. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I don't think that's it; it may, unfortunately, be the best answer. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 13 03:27:59 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA24856 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 03:21:02 -0700 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA24851 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 03:20:58 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.10/8.6.10) id LAA01502 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:25:22 +0100 From: Peter Bowyer Message-Id: <199504131025.LAA01502@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Subject: Bulk_mailer? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:25:22 +0200 (BST) In-Reply-To: <199504130800.BAA22619@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Apr 13, 95 01:00:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text