From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 08:15:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA08286 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 08:05:27 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA08187 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 07:59:07 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23874 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:26:14 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA19131; 1 Jul 95 09:25:26 CDT (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA19128 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:25:26 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507011425.JAA19128@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Possible Mailing List Spammers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:25:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1474 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Peter received this in email and found it somewhat disturbing: Forwarded message: > From peter Sat Jul 1 08:45:55 1995 > From: "Notii[4~" > To: Multiple@venere.inet.it, Recipients@venere.inet.it, of@venere.inet.it, > the@venere.inet.it, mailing@venere.inet.it, list@venere.inet.it > Subject: Internet Mailing lists for sale > Organization: Logica Servizi Edizioni Software s.r.l. > Date: 01 Jul 95 14:47 CET > Reply-To: ndr@logica.it > Message-Id: <950701144742@logica.it> > Lines: 14 > Distribution: World > X-Newsreader: Logica Nets Version 0.1.00 > Sender: peter > > Please excuse us for intrusion. > > WE have several electronic mailing lists and more to be scanned based on criteria > eventually specific to you. > We also can supply windows software which is able to batch send a message to > large mailing lists. > > If interested please contact us and I will be pleased to give you further info. > > > If you are disturbed by our action and want to be removed from our lists please tell > us and we will immediately remove your address. > Thank you > > Beniamino Vignola > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Logica Servizi Edizioni Software s.r.l. > Via Severano 33 - 00161 Roma - Italy > Phone 39-6-44291214 - Fax 39-6-44291390 > Email: > info log-info@logica.it > staff log-staff@logica.it > orders bookorder@logica.it > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 21:34:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA25281 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:13:23 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA25276 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:13:20 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 18; Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:30 PDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:27 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Time to wait before dropping members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, All, Over the years, I have acquired three major (in my opinion, at least...) mailing lists on the Internet. From time to time, I get a slough of bounced messages from sites. Most are transitory, but some persist for days. ANd of course the feedback from the postmasters at some sites is less than timely... What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 22:04:20 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA25620 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:50:17 -0700 Received: from halcyon.com (halcyon.halcyon.com [198.137.231.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA25615 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:50:13 -0700 Received: by halcyon.com id AA09658 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 From: Ralph Sims Message-Id: <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Jul 1, 95 09:12:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 853 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you > start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you > finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to come up with a solution. A few of the listservs drop the address on the first bounce. I appreciate the need to do this, especially with large groups, but would also appreciate a little slack. We don't need much time--maybe an hour or two--to get things back online. From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 22:34:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA26361 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:23:31 -0700 Received: from nmia.com (nmia.com [198.59.166.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA26356 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:23:28 -0700 Received: from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0sSHUR-000LauC; Sat, 1 Jul 95 23:22 MDT Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 23:22:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Ozz Graham To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members In-Reply-To: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > Hi, All, > > Over the years, I have acquired three major (in my opinion, > at least...) mailing lists on the Internet. From time to time, > I get a slough of bounced messages from sites. Most are transitory, > but some persist for days. ANd of course the feedback from the > postmasters at some sites is less than timely... I usually wait till 3 bounce, then send personel e-mail to the person, if that bounces, and I can't finger them, I delete them from our list. If they write back, and we are able to respond to them, we explain what happened. > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you > start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you > finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? I go 3 times, and try a personal e-mail the 4th time, as I said above. I figure thats good enough. What does everyone else think? BTW, my wife adn I run a quilt-related mail list called QuiltBiz, its hand-maintained. Ozz Graham From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 04:04:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA00699 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 03:48:55 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA00694 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 03:48:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199507021048.DAA00694@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2713; Sun, 02 Jul 95 12:43:38 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1907; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:43:38 +0200 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:27:09 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: "Henry W. Miller" , Ralph Sims cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Ralph Sims said: >Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 users >sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are related to >mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some sort of system >maintenance that locks access to the password file, hence bouncing mail >("unknown user" or some sort of error). Let me make sure I get this right. From time to time, you need to perform some technical thing or other that makes your mail system throw away all mail to perfectly valid local users. The mail thrown away in this way cannot be recovered. This is no accident - you know that mail will be lost irretrievably for a few hours. And yet you keep doing it. Well, where I come from, you would at a minimum be fired, and probably sued for gross negligence. Lawyers would calculate that each lost message costs $100 or so to the company and multiply by the number of lost messages (say 3000 every time at your published rates) and by the number of times you've done that (probably not more than 3-4 before someone found out) and they'd be asking for somewhere around a million dollars in damages. Obviously we come from very different worlds :-) What I find very interesting is that you are blaming this problem on LISTSERV (which, incidentally, no longer behaves as you said). Ah, I see that Halcyon is an ISP. All right then, do your users know about this? Do you publicize to your business customers that they can expect to lose mail irretrievably from time to time because you have to perform technical jumble XYZ and unfortunately this makes all the mail bounce and you haven't been able to find a way not to make it happen? Do they know that there are providers who don't have that problem? >While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to come up >with a solution. Simply stop your SMTP listener while you're doing that. You won't receive any mail and thus won't have the opportunity to lose any. It's not rocket science is it??? Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 07:04:26 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02330 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 06:40:26 -0700 Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA02325 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 06:40:23 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA19865; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:39:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199507021339.IAA19865@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members X-Request-Do: take X-Request-Do: Resolve In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:27 PDT." <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 08:39:34 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It really depends upon the list and the amount of activity it has. For more active lists, it is a matter of days as even a small ( x < 1%) of bounce traffic can be 1000's of messages and many megs of bounce traffic in a week. For less active lists, it could be several weeks because it doesn't matter as much. It may also depend on what the casuse of the error is. Major cuases of bounces that I see are: user has moved on so, "unknown user" hostname has changed "host unknown" internet host down "unable to contact" UUCP host down "unable to contact host for xx hours" I hate these as they are followed by: UUCP host down "unable to deliver message for X days" user does something stupid. forward to a forward loop, bad procmail, etc site does soemthing wrong, bad sendmail.cf, bad mx record, etc. --Gene From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 09:04:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA03542 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:43:45 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA03537 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:43:43 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA121719775; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 11:42:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 11:42:55 -0400 Message-Id: <950702114254_23907129@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-07-02 00:38:21 EDT, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) writes: > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you >start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you >finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? If the bounce message is "no such user", they are QUIET DELETEd immediately. If the report is "mailbox full", I delete them without the quiet option. If the report is anything else, they are set to NOMAIL. Between the three lists I run, I get about 500 bounce reports a day on average, and I don't have the time or leisure to track each case down and resolve the problem. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 10:34:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA05638 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 10:27:07 -0700 Received: from so.cynical.net (so.cynical.net [198.53.146.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA05633 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 10:27:02 -0700 Received: (from silliker1@localhost) by so.cynical.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA03946 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 13:24:16 -0400 From: Andrew Silliker Message-Id: <199507021724.NAA03946@so.cynical.net> Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 13:24:15 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> from "Ralph Sims" at Jul 1, 95 09:49:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 556 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 > users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are > related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some > sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, > hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). When I start doing maintenance on a level where mail will begin to bounce, I just remove the machine from the ethernet. More of an annoyance that user unknown (to me), are the tradidtional Mailbox Full bounces. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 18:04:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA12990 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:38:21 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA12980 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:38:18 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id UAA28924; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 20:37:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199507030037.UAA28924@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Ralph Sims cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller), list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:49:19 PDT." <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 20:37:07 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 > users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are > related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some > sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, > hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). You *really* need to fix this. One frequent source of this problem is when passwords are served by NIS or NIS+ databases but the interface to the password database is still through getpwnam() -- which has no way to distinguish between permanent failure (like "no such user") and temporary failure (like "server down"). Ideally, the mailer would do the NIS lookup directly and thereby be able to tell the difference. Our fix was to set up multiple NIS servers, and to make sure the primary server is never taken down unless absolutely necessary. It's also possible to simply kill the sendmail daemon (or whatever MTA you're using) whenever the password server is taken down for maintenance. > While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to > come up with a solution. A few of the listservs drop the > address on the first bounce. I appreciate the need to do this, > especially with large groups, but would also appreciate a little > slack. We don't need much time--maybe an hour or two--to get > things back online. In my experience, something like half of the bounces I get are due to intermittent errors like the ones described here, or configuration problems that could be fixed by a competent postmaster. So I try to wait a day or two before nuking a user from one of my lists. I also send out warning messages to the users whose mail is bouncing (which mainly serve to tell *me* that the mail is still broken, but I send a copy to the recipient's postmaster if it looks like the kind of thing that he might be able to fix). Unfortunately, few postmasters have demonstrated the ability to fix sendmail configuration errors... Keith From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 3 08:36:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04024 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 08:22:33 -0700 Received: from reggae.ncren.net (reggae.ncren.net [128.109.131.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04010 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 08:22:30 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu by reggae.ncren.net (5.65/tas-reggae/may94) id AA21250; Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:21:45 -0400 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA00888; Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:22:34 EDT Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:22:34 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9507031522.AA00888@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: "unknown user" bounces Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It sure is news to me that this is an indication of a possibly temporary problem. I had been deleting list entries immediately when I got this message, assuming that the user had moved on or that they had subscribed with an incorrect address. Personally, I prefer the "host down, will try for another X days" messages, because they sound much more temporary. cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu Cathy Eades PET Center Bowman Gray School of Medicine Winston-Salem, NC From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 3 18:34:47 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18882 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:16:06 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA18877 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:16:03 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA15378; Mon, 3 Jul 95 18:44:56 -0700 Message-Id: <9507040144.AA15378@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Mon, 03 Jul 95 18:44:56 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: A9720CAA X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: A9720CAA From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 18:07:09 TZ Subject: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950704010722MTP[01.00.00]000000f8-3870 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone! This mailing list has been extremely helpful to me. I have yet another question: Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list you are trying to send a message to? Thanks, Ben. PS. Either this mailing list has been very quiet today or I inadvertently signed off of the list. I guess I'll find out. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 01:34:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA27332 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 01:25:06 -0700 Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA27325 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 01:25:03 -0700 Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id EAA00275 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:24:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:24:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199507040824.EAA00275@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Benjamin Holz > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? I can't answer your question but have wanted the same information myself. I think it is a great way to avoid spamming. Best to ya from the sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny *********************************************************** Ken Bourbeau Maria McKee Mailinglist email: mckeefan-request@nic.iii.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@kenmoto1.iii.net *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 05:07:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA00529 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:51:04 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA00524 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:50:37 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-8) id AA08530; Tue, 4 Jul 95 13:47:07 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOLMH.3) id AA05653; Tue, 4 Jul 95 13:46:15 +0200 Message-Id: <9507041146.AA05653@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:46:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Benjamin Holz's message as of 1995 Jul 3 Mon 18:07. <9507040144.AA15378@netmail2.microsoft.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Benjamin Holz wrote: > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? I believe most popular mailinglist manager packages allow you to configure this (Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, SmartList, others?). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Always look on the bright side of life!" From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 06:04:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA01998 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 05:55:56 -0700 Received: from toast (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA01993 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 05:55:53 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id IAA44264 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:55:11 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id IAA32519; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:51:31 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Jul 95 08:17:53 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Architext Bullseye! ? From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: <9soP8c1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 08:08:43 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just received a solicitation from Architext, which offers to archive mailing list content and then "users powerful ways to search and browse....". The service is called Bullseye! It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user of the Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the access to the text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or does it mean something else? Has any other list owner received this missive and if so, what do you all think about it and what action are you going to take? Are there any copyright issues involved here? On the subject of copyright, does a contributor to a mailing list retain copyright to the article? GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 06:34:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02942 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:29:41 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA02937 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:29:38 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 88; Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:28:02 PDT Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:27:59 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992D5F.C5DC55E6.88@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE" 4-JUL-1995 05:16:41.42 > Subj: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? > Benjamin Holz wrote: > > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject > >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list > >you are trying to send a message to? > > I believe most popular mailinglist manager packages allow you to > configure this (Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, SmartList, others?). > Not to mention MX, which runs on VMS systems, which I use for managing my lists... > -- > Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de > Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). > > "Always look on the bright side of life!" -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 07:04:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA03549 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:59:07 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA03538 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:59:03 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 103; Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:58:03 PDT Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:58:00 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: gess@knex.mind.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992D63.F76A8156.103@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Architext Bullseye! ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"gess@knex.mind.org" 4-JUL-1995 06:11:43.29 > Subj: Architext Bullseye! ? > I have just received a solicitation from Architext, which offers to > archive mailing list content and then "users powerful ways to search and > browse....". The service is called Bullseye! > > It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user of the > Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the access to the > text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or does it mean something > else? > Don't know... > Has any other list owner received this missive and if so, what do you > all think about it and what action are you going to take? Are there any > copyright issues involved here? > Not I, and I manage three "major" lists, the TCP-IP list formerly at NIC.DDN.MIL, and before that at SRI; the CMU-OPENVMS-IP list, formerly the CMU-TEK-TCP list from CMU; and the FREEMASONRY-LIST, which I rescued from oblivion. The former two have been spammed... > On the subject of copyright, does a contributor to a mailing list retain > copyright to the article? > I'm not a lawyer - I don't even play on on TV, but I think that the originator of the post should put a notice in the message if we wants to retain rights. Hopefully, someone who is more versed in the law of the net can expand on this. This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner "copyright" the the contents of the list, i.e., the list of recipients as a legal manuever to take action against spammers? I think we all know about whom I am referring to... > GeSS > -- > Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| > Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 07:34:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA03809 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:17:25 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA03804 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:17:20 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:34 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. What I find really amazing about this is that on the short list of recipients, the two lists I maintain, dewy-fields and crossfire, are both included. There is absolutely no other connection between them, one is for a band (Bel Canto) and the other for a computer game. A previous message (to big-linux@netspace.org) only had one lead Message-ID: I then contacted postmaster@med.utah.edu, but he was not surprisingly unable to help. How can we track this down? Kjetil T. Return-Path: <@[128.110.151.36]> Received: from email.MT.GOV (email.MT.GOV [161.7.101.225]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 03:12:02 +0200 Message-Id: <199507040112.DAA17507@ifi.uio.no> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 3-Jul-1995 17:35:37 -0400; at mhs01.ngm01 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 17:34:35 -0600 To: Biomch-L@nic.surfnet.nl, eu20@a3.xs4all.nl, SLADE@a3.xs4all.nl, dewy-fields@ifi.uio.no, Crossfire@ifi.uio.no From: Olga.Kosmina@Dekabristov_St.5-178.Kiev-253121.Ukraine.UA Subject: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads ## meet women of the former USSR through romance ads ## Months ago, Olga Kosmina placed my personal ad in several papers of the former Soviet Union. Since that time I have received over 40 responses for the $50 I mailed Olga. (I believe she paid the newspapers something around $35 and kept the rest for her efforts.) I have found greater success and savings by placing my own personal romance advertisement rather than purchasing addresses through Russian "bride" catalog companies. If you are interested in placing a personal romance ad as I did, contact Olga. She has built up a list of most every newspaper and magazine in the former Soviet Union and could help direct your ad to certain areas if you wish. She writes, "please say that I place all ad _throughout_ Russia and other countries of former Soviet Union, not only Western Russia." Olga is 23 years old, has a bachelors in biology and works full-time as a florist in Kiev. She speaks, reads and writes English as well as her native languages of Russian and Ukrainian. I realize that it is a very trusting person who would put $ into an envelope and mail to a foreign country. If you would rather send a letter of inquiry first, Olga will respond to your questions. It takes about 16 days for a letter to travel from the USA to Kiev. Olga Kozmina Dekabristov Street 5 - 178 Kiev 253121 Ukraine I have found that by placing a single bill between two pieces of newsprint inside an envelope, the Ukrainian post cannot see through and does not bother to tamper. I have yet to lose a letter sent to Kiev. I am sorry that Olga does not have e-mail because it would make contact with her much easier. I am posting anonymously because of the inordinate amount of e-mail which I would receive -- inquiries as well as flames. Best Wishes, David and Olga Although Olga has never seen a newsgroup nor heard of "net-etiquette," she believes that helping others exceeds the cost of angering those who feel the net should not be used in this fashion. IHA (I humbly ask) that you not flame the postmaster of this site. peace. . . From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 08:34:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04489 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:19:48 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04484 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:19:45 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA120101145; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:19:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:19:05 -0400 Message-Id: <950704111854_25017484@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Benjamin Holz writes: > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? Revised LISTSERV can be set to do this, with Send=Private in the list header. If there are problem users at a given site, you can also take steps to prevent them from abusing the list by using a combination of the Filter command and NOPOST setting. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 08:37:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:21:11 -0700 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04526 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:20:37 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA14055 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0100 From: Peter Bowyer Message-Id: <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Subject: Postmasters To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0200 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 652 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, let alone a promise to fix. OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? Any other experiences? Should I just not bother ? Peter Bowyer peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 10:37:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA07626 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:26:05 -0700 Received: from toast (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA07620 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:26:03 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id NAA17991 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:17 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id NAA06181; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:11:39 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Jul 95 12:29:14 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 12:25:07 EST In-Reply-To: <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places > before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems > to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. > As soon as I saw this in a couple of lists I subscribe to, I added a filter to divert mail from Olga.Kosmina. I knew my lists will be hit sooner or later (They go in alphabetical order, about 6 lists at a time, it seems). Olga, of course, is innocent, as the spammer claims. She knows nothing about netiquettes and other such matters. :-) GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 12:34:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA11065 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:30:18 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA11059 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:30:14 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA06493; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 15:29:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199507041929.PAA06493@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Peter Bowyer cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Postmasters In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0200." <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:29:18 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters > in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a > system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, > let alone a promise to fix. If the problem is something simple like a bad user forwarding address, I often get a reply from such message, either explaining how I should deal with the problem or telling me that they've fixed it on their end. If instead the problem is something like a broken mail configuration, I rarely get a reply. Of course, if the mailer is broken, it's possible that the postmaster never received the message or that the machine can't send out a reply anyway. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 12:37:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA10947 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:22:56 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA10942 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:22:52 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA06476; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 15:21:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200." <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:21:48 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places > before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems > to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. ... > I then contacted postmaster@med.utah.edu, but he was not surprisingly > unable to help. The message was sent from email.mt.gov (161.7.101.255), so you might try sending mail to the postmaster there. Some of us who are reasonably close by might care to telephone them: State of Montana (MT-DOM) Department of Administration RM 22 Mitchell Bldg. Helena, MT 59620 Domain Name: MT.GOV Administrative Contact: Heilman, Ron (RH31) heilman@DOA.MT.GOV (406) 444-2924 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: VanderVoort, Charley (CV57) [No mailbox] (406)444-2863 After my first mailing list got hit, I did the following on my mail server: route add host email.mt.gov localhost 1 to keep my machine from answering any packets I got from there. Unfortunately, our mail machine was taken down for backups last night, and when it was rebooted, it lost the route :( I'd like to know about any other hacks that people use to filter out potential spam. Since these things are usually posted to every mailing list, I wonder if we could get the cooperation of a couple of lists near the top and bottom of the PAML list....whenever they see things that look like spams, let the other list admins know about it. Then everybody else could filter out the offending messages. Obviously this is a pain to do manually, but once we got the process set up, we could automate it. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 13:04:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA11862 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:51:59 -0700 Received: from terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (terra.stack.urc.tue.nl [131.155.140.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA11857 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:51:56 -0700 Received: from xaa.stack.urc.tue.nl (uucp@localhost) by terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (8.6.11) with UUCP id VAA13375; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 21:51:16 +0200 Received: (from xaa@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA03963; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:59:01 +0200 From: Mark Huizer Message-Id: <199507041659.SAA03963@localhost> Subject: Re: Postmasters To: peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk (Peter Bowyer) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:59:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> from "Peter Bowyer" at Jul 4, 95 04:39:26 pm Reply-To: xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1348 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about > mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... > > I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters > in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a > system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, > let alone a promise to fix. And the problem is that they normally don't get noticed, since postmasters mailbox is always flooding with returned mail due to typo's machines being unreachable etc... I know the amount of effort put in to reading this folder :-) Don't expect the world from it > > OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his > neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off > a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? One tries, one tries... But 100 mails on the same subject make your fingers hurt :-) > Mark Huizer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Mark Huizer - xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl - markh@win.tue.nl - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless - - by not committing them? -- Jules Feiffer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 13:34:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA12880 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:56 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA12873 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:53 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21512 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:57:01 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA14017; 4 Jul 95 14:53:19 CDT (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id OAA14014 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:53:19 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507041953.OAA14014@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:53:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 512 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Since these things are usually posted to every mailing list, I wonder > if we could get the cooperation of a couple of lists near the top > and bottom of the PAML list.... This isn't a bad idea. I could put in dummy entries aliased to me at the top and bottom of the PAML. Sort of like alt.1d. It wouldn't have worked in this case. They were going alphabetically by *domain*. I couldn't tell if they were using the PAML (or if they were, what version of it) since all the lists I saw were out of whack. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 18:34:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18989 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:12:54 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com (chinacat.unicom.com [192.108.105.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA18984 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:12:50 -0700 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA02105; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 20:11:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199507050111.UAA02105@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 20:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Jul 4, 95 03:21:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1223 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > The message was sent from email.mt.gov (161.7.101.255), so you might > try sending mail to the postmaster there. > > Some of us who are reasonably close by might care to telephone them: > > State of Montana (MT-DOM) > Department of Administration > RM 22 Mitchell Bldg. > Helena, MT 59620 This is going to be a tough one. I talked to Ron Heilman, their security officer, this morning. Their Internet guy is on vacation, and all this guy knows is mainframes. I warned him that he had two issues to work on: one was locating the cracker and the other was dealing with irate mail. It appears that email.mt.gov is not a real computer, but a toy gateway (with a broken IP stack to boot). I'm not real optimistic the machine will have sufficient capability to trace the problem, and I don't know if they've got the expertise to do so. The message sent to my list was rejected. The SMTP MAIL FROM: was illegal and sendmail bounced it. -- Chip Rosenthal They said I was just a dumb cowpoke. Unicom Systems Development I didn't want to make a fuss. - Robert Earl Keen For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 5 07:14:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02462 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 06:59:25 -0700 Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA02450 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 06:59:17 -0700 Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm940906)) id AA20067; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 09:54:53 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 09:54:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Avi Hyman To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) In-Reply-To: <00992D63.F76A8156.103@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 2003 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner > "copyright" the the contents of the list, I find this to be a very touchy issue. I personally moderate 6 lists on three different hosts and serve as the assistant list software manager for our site. I believe that voluntary lists (those people join voluntarily) should vest copyright control with the poster, not the list or the owner, but that posting implies consent for re-use, so long as the identity of the poster is retained, including the owner, if the owner is the poster. Furthermore, I think the list, as a group, vests authority for administrative duties in the owner (for example, dealing with spammers). I am a member of the H-Net cartel, a fairly significant consortium of lists in the Humanities. There, as a condition for joining the cartel, listowners "turn-over" copyright control to the consortium. This is important, because potentially important documents (such as compiled syllabi) are being produced - who owns them? While the owner may have given up that right to the cartel, I question whether or not the owner ever had the right in the first place. I think that the answer is no. Folks, we have the potential to publicly discuss this issue as list owners. While we may not settle the matter, I think the proceedings of this thread should be compiled as a discussion paper. If you all don't mind, I would like to keep copies of the notes and compile them. I look forward to reading your points of view. Avi > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 5 23:04:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA11473 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:53:05 -0700 Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA11468 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:53:02 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24075>; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 01:52:18 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 01:52:03 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <95Jul6.015218edt.24075@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The latest round has started up; this time (judging from what was hit both locally and at sites I'm talking to live) it appears to have been using a list of lists generated by querying Majordomos for their list of lists and accumulating the results. Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and looking them over one jumped right out at me: Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of this spam, hence the jumping) I'm willing to make our full data (all other two queries) available to people for merging and commonality-checking. I'm (obviously) interested to know if anyone else has seen queries from this particular address. - cks [I have bcc:'d a number of affected sites on the off-chance that they aren't on the list-managers mailing list; my apologies to postmasters that are on and are getting it twice.] From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 00:34:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA14163 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:05:42 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA14156 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:05:38 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA08847; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Chris Siebenmann cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round In-Reply-To: <95Jul6.015218edt.24075@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jul 1995, Chris Siebenmann wrote: > Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users > have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and > looking them over one jumped right out at me: > > Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Yup, I've got one too. Jun 29 16:03:21 taz.hyperreal.com majordomo[28002] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists All of my lists were hit today. Fortunately I've got only-list-subscriber-can-post turned on for most of them. Scary thing though - it would be *too* much more coding to forge a subscribe, and then an unsubscribe, to a list to make sure the spam gets through. It's at that point that I break down and pull the ethernet out of the back of the machine for good! :) > (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of > this spam, hence the jumping) Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 00:36:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA14205 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:08:11 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA14199; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:08:06 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:07:48 -0800 To: Peter Bowyer , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Postmasters Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:39 PM 7/4/95, Peter Bowyer wrote: >This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about >mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... > >I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters >in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a >system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, >let alone a promise to fix. > >OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his >neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off >a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? But it's not just a minute to answer your message; it's a minute each for each of the tens/hundreds/thousands of messages that have come in from sites all over the net telling them about the problem. Better to just fix the problem in the first place! >Any other experiences? Should I just not bother ? It's nice to let them know they have a problem (sometimes you're the first), but don't expect a response. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 08:05:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA11326 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 07:39:47 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA11315 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 07:39:39 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:16 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:15 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199507061438.6620.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Brian Behlendorf on Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Chris Siebenmann] | (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of | this spam, hence the jumping) [Brian Behlendorf] | Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from | physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. Yep, that's the second round :-( My two lists were hit again yesterday. The list of recipients was the exact same (biomch-l, eu20, slade, dewy-fields, crossfire), so I first thought it was a clueless user hitting R instead of D. Headers (note the "nice" Subject -- is it a virus? :-) Received: from physics1.byu.edu by HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 05 Jul 95 23:20:17 EDT From: David@wishes.to.remain.anonymous.UA Subject: your romance ad in USSR !" V A U@| Ol (Unverified) The reason for a second round may be that the previous From-address was illegal and hence dropped by some MTA's. UA is Ukraine, incidentally. (At times like this, I wish I was using something other than Sendmail alias lists :-() Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 09:29:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA15517 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:41:25 -0700 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA15510 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:41:21 -0700 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id RAA16683; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:40:40 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05236; Thu, 6 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200 Message-Id: <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> From: Per Starback To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> (message from Keith Moore on Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:21:48 -0400) Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When my list got hit by the "Ukrainian spam" the envelope said "From @emcb008x.utah.edu Tue Jul 4 01:10:35 1995" (and the Return-Path: was the same). That instance was sent To: kaw@swi.psy.uva.nl, mindmap@marccri.marc.cri.nz, disney-comics@minsk.docs.uu.se, VEGGIE@maths.bath.ac.uk, ZForum@comlab.ox.ac.uk (Disney-comics is "my" list.) > | Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from > | physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. > > Yep, that's the second round :-( My two lists were hit again Hm, how many versions/rounds are there? The pkd-list was attacked shortly after mine and I compared notes with the administrator of that list then (Hi, are you here Tom?) and he said that > This one came through email.mt.us, which is the Montana department > of transportation (as far as I can tell). -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 09:50:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA17944 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:28:33 -0700 Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA17932 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:28:28 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA17257; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:27:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199507061627.LAA17257@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Chris Siebenmann , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 1995 00:04:55 PDT." Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:27:33 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think we have a winner... Jun 29 17:53:49 antares.mcs.anl.gov majordomo[14943] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists The only other thought that it might be is: Jun 29 23:41:19 antares.mcs.anl.gov majordomo[17658] {wwwpilot@world.std.com (Software Tool And Die)} lists It appears that they have a central list of lists or something. They've been doing lists for some time now. Not sure to what end. --gene Brian Behlendorf made the following keystrokes: >On Thu, 6 Jul 1995, Chris Siebenmann wrote: >> Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users >> have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and >> looking them over one jumped right out at me: >> >> Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} l > ists > >Yup, I've got one too. > >Jun 29 16:03:21 taz.hyperreal.com majordomo[28002] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu >(R Brock)} lists > >All of my lists were hit today. Fortunately I've got >only-list-subscriber-can-post turned on for most of them. Scary thing >though - it would be *too* much more coding to forge a subscribe, and >then an unsubscribe, to a list to make sure the spam gets through. It's >at that point that I break down and pull the ethernet out of the back of >the machine for good! :) > >> (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of >> this spam, hence the jumping) > >Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from physics1.byu.edu, >routed through Harvard. > > Brian > > From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 10:04:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18724 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:50:45 -0700 Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA18719 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:50:40 -0700 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00633; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:53:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:53:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: Per Starback cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, my lists have not been hit yet, but one of the lists I am on (tcp-group) just got hit earleir today and I just checked the headers and they were from physics1.byu.edu. Even though the spammer asked not to, I sent a message to the postmaster at the site asking them to look into this (and including the message). I do have one question, though that was sparked by this guy trying to remain anonymous. If somebody had an account on anon.penet.fi anonymous server, can they send messages to mailing lists using that anonymous id? It seems like a perfect way for an anonymous spammer to spam mailing lists and remain anonymous if it is possible to do. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 13:05:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA29701 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:59:27 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA29690 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:59:21 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA08309 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:59:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:59:43 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199507061959.PAA08309@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: use of anon.penet.fi to spam lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I do have one question, though that was sparked by this guy trying to >remain anonymous. If somebody had an account on anon.penet.fi anonymous >server, can they send messages to mailing lists using that anonymous id? >It seems like a perfect way for an anonymous spammer to spam mailing >lists and remain anonymous if it is possible to do. Back during the Great Anonymous Server Debate, Johan Helsingus (the admin of anon.penet.fi) stated that such abuses would lead to revocation of anonymous access. I suspect, however, that one such spam would be suc- cessful before Johan could clamp down. --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 14:35:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA05415 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:28:57 -0700 Received: from vanbc.wimsey.com (vanbc.wimsey.com [204.191.160.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA05410 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:28:53 -0700 Received: by vanbc.wimsey.com (Smail-3.1.29.1 #29) id m0sTySg-0002OzC; Thu, 6 Jul 95 14:27 PDT Message-Id: From: jhenders@wimsey.com (John Henders) Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round (fwd) To: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@cc.utah.edu In-Reply-To: from "Bryan Thorp" at Jul 6, 95 05:24:27 am Cc: jhenders@wimsey.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24me1 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1314 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From bthorp Thu Jul 6 05:51:42 1995 > Return-Path: > Received: by vanbc.wimsey.com > (Smail-3.1.29.1 #29) id m0sTqP7-0002OBC; Thu, 6 Jul 95 05:51 PDT > To: jhenders > Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round (fwd) > From: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca (Bryan Thorp) > Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 05:24:27 -0700 > Reply-To: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca (Bryan Thorp) > Message-ID: > X-Mailer: Yarn 0.78 with YESX 0.20.B0509 > Lines: 43 > > John, Thought you might be interested in this thread from the > "list-managers" mailing list... I couldn't find any subscribes > by R. Brock or anybody at utah.edu... One of my users forwarded this to me, and I'd like to confirm that R Brock also did a lists command here, three times. Jun 29 23:00:12 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[22392] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 29 23:05:24 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[22777] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 30 01:16:02 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[4004] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists -- John Henders BOFH Wimsey Information Systems. Vancouver's original internet service provider. Dialup SL/IP and PPP for Mac, DOS and Windows Voice: (604) 257-1111, FAX: (604) 257-1110 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 16:34:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA10921 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:16:44 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA10916 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:16:39 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA22452 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:46:46 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA11323; 6 Jul 95 17:34:04 CDT (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id RAA11320 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:34:03 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507062234.RAA11320@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: A couple humourous items To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:34:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 921 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this bounce from my mailing list this morning: > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 421 arts.usask.ca (TCP)... Deferred: Connection timed out during user open with arts.usask.ca > While talking to strata3d.com: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 ... User unknown: Not a typewriter > 550 strata3d.com!adrinr... User unknown Gee, they certainly are making typewriters more intelligent these days. This one was posted to another list I subscribe to: From owner-chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu Thu Jul 6 12:40:12 1995 X-Listname: Hot! Hot! Hot! Sender: owner-chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:38:00 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: To: chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu SIGNOFF Chile-Heads SUBSCRIBE Chile-Heads-Digest QUIT From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 18:35:47 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA16108 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:12:43 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA16103 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:12:40 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA21252; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:12:37 -0400 Message-Id: <9507070112.AA21252@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200." <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 21:12:34 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Hm, how many versions/rounds are there? The pkd-list was attacked >shortly after mine and I compared notes with the administrator of that >list then (Hi, are you here Tom?) and he said that > >> This one came through email.mt.us, which is the Montana department >> of transportation (as far as I can tell). My list is not managed by majordomo. It's managed by hand and it was hit from email.mt.us on Monday evening. The To: line was: To: SII@moumee.calstatela.edu, cisco@spot.colorado.edu, orienteering@graphics.cornell.edu, sca-caid@ecst.csuchico.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 03:04:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA06553 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 02:47:37 -0700 Received: from mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.148.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id CAA06538 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 02:47:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:46:12 +0100 From: Ian Dickinson Message-Id: <17080.199507070946@mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: by mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk id KAA17080; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:46:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM "List-Managers-Digest V4 #138" (Jul 7, 1:00am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: } Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads > My list is not managed by majordomo. It's managed by hand and it was > hit from email.mt.us on Monday evening. The To: line was: > > To: SII@moumee.calstatela.edu, cisco@spot.colorado.edu, > orienteering@graphics.cornell.edu, sca-caid@ecst.csuchico.edu, > sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu > > I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a > perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the > PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. IMHO, It's certainly more complicated than that. My suspicion is that the spammer got the PAML, and then sent majordomo "lists" commands to each server it found (and probably the equivalent listserv commands etc etc) and spammed everything it found. I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit is probably because you don't run a MLM. For info, I've seen these particular commands logged from the likely perp: Jun 30 02:14:40 thistle majordomo[29767] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 30 17:02:10 thistle majordomo[5091] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} help Jul 04 23:27:21 thistle majordomo[1238] {richard brock } lists I haven't seen the last one mentioned here yet. Cheers, -- Ian 'Vato' Dickinson [ID17] - Unix/Networking/Deviancy Support the ZLDF! cudep@csv.warwick.ac.uk - MIME mail welcome - vato@limpid.org.uk Click here. echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq' | dc From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 03:35:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA08377 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:33:15 -0700 Received: from rye.city.ac.uk (rye.city.ac.uk [138.40.11.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA08371 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:33:03 -0700 Received: from paddington.city.ac.uk by rye.city.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <06792-0@rye.city.ac.uk>; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:32:08 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:32:04 +0100 (BST) From: "R.M. Hopkins" X-Sender: sl338@paddington To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <17080.199507070946@mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 926 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The same guy has shown up at our site as well shortly before we got bombed. Has anyone contacted the sys admin at his site ? Richard On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Ian Dickinson wrote: > On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: > For info, I've seen these particular commands logged from the likely perp: > > Jun 30 02:14:40 thistle majordomo[29767] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists > Jun 30 17:02:10 thistle majordomo[5091] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} help > Jul 04 23:27:21 thistle majordomo[1238] {richard brock } lists > .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. R M Hopkins Web Consultant Tel: 0831 705016 (24 hr) City University Computing Services Email: R.M.Hopkins@city.ac.uk London EC1V OHB http://www.city.ac.uk/~sl338 `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------' From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 07:07:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA16182 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:47:12 -0700 Received: from geomag.gly.fsu.edu (geomag.gly.fsu.edu [128.186.10.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA16177 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:47:09 -0700 Received: by geomag.gly.fsu.edu (5.65/31geomag) id AA12864; Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:46:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:46:10 -0400 From: Ted Zateslo Message-Id: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ian Dickinson writes: > > On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: > > > > I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a > > perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the > > PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. > > IMHO, It's certainly more complicated than that. > My suspicion is that the spammer got the PAML, and then sent majordomo > "lists" commands to each server it found (and probably the equivalent > listserv commands etc etc) and spammed everything it found. > I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that > is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit > is probably because you don't run a MLM. This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands to all the usual addresses at each site. Ted Zateslo, keeper of the brass musicians' list zateslo@gly.fsu.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 08:35:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19407 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:19:38 -0700 Received: from wto11.tor.on.doe.ca ([142.97.226.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA19389 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:19:20 -0700 Received: by wto11.tor.on.doe.ca (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16356; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:18:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jean Charest To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Ted Zateslo wrote: > > This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed > in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and > have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, > of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the > majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is > unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands > to all the usual addresses at each site. A newbie question. What is PAML? How did your lists get on PAML? Thanks .------------------------------------------------------. | Jean Charest | | Atmospheric Environment Service | | Environment Canada | '------------------------------------------------------` From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 08:38:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19716 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:27:48 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA19711 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:27:44 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sUFMR-000FR0C; Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:30 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: the romance ad spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:30:34 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> from "Ted Zateslo" at Jul 7, 95 09:46:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1918 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ted Zateslo wrote, | This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed | in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and | have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, | of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the | majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is | unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands | to all the usual addresses at each site. That doesn't jibe with my experience. I administer both my lists by hand, and no Majordomo or LISTSERV installation should be able to tell you about them. Both, though, are in the PAML and both are in the SRI list, and each was hit twice. The first time to each, the From_ line read "Postmaster", so (thanks, SRB) it kicked out. The second time it went out on my unmoderated list; on the one I moderate, I just tossed it. After the second incident I put a trap in for any reappearances, and the trap caught one mailing, but it wasn't from them. A member of another list that got hit with the same copy groupreplied (or replyalled) to it, saying he didn't care that they had said "no flames, please;" they deserved to be scorched and he was going to do it. He sent it out to all the lists in the To: line (including the one he belongs to, so he got his own insults back) and the phony return address that "David@anonymous" used the second time. It didn't reach the guilty party but it harmed all the victims yet again (except those on my list because I had put in the trap). I informed him of what he had done. Here he was lecturing someone else for carelessness and selfishness in addressing unsolicited mail by committing the exact same mistake himself. No doubt there is a nasty flame from him denying any error waiting in my mail on that site. Anyhow, I'm surprised that Ted's manually administered but publicized list was spared. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 10:07:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA24936 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:51:01 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com (news5.crl.com [165.113.1.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA24924 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:50:57 -0700 Received: from nbi.UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA06410 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:38:14 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:23:38 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spam and the PAML From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: <69mV8c1w165w@nbi.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:20:40 EDT Organization: A Little Fluffy Cloud Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ian Dickinson writes: > I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that > is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit > is probably because you don't run a MLM. For what it's worth, I run three mailing lists. All are public. All are run on Majordomo. None are on PAML. None have received the Russian Women message. L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 11:38:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA29653 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:13:04 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA29648 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:13:01 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA14276; Fri, 7 Jul 95 11:42:47 -0700 Message-Id: <9507071842.AA14276@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 11:42:46 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: 8707C652 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 8707C652 From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:48:29 TZ Subject: ListMaster and other tools X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950707174857MTP[01.00.00]00000122-470 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone, Thanks to Norm Aleks, I've just heard about a very interesting tool, ListMaster, and another tool that Norm mentioned that is being developed by David Baker (at Brown). These tools seem to integrate the process of subscribing to mailing lists and I'm very curious to how they work and what exactly they do. If anyone has any information on either of these tools I would be very interested. Thanks!! Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com P.S. - I know that I post a lot of questions to this mailing list and I apologize if I am annoying anyone. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 12:04:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA29521 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:11:07 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA29494 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:11:01 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA27806; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:11:02 -0400 Message-Id: <9507071811.AA27806@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:20:40 EDT." <69mV8c1w165w@nbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:10:58 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >For what it's worth, I run three mailing lists. All are public. All >are run on Majordomo. None are on PAML. None have received the Russian >Women message. OK, so he didn't find your majordomo server because it didn't have any public pointers to it. I think we're getting side-tracked here. Clearly this turd is using whatever resources he can get his hands on. Let's stop concentrating so much on reverse-engineering his spam script and focus on tracking down his butt and getting it spanked. My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" David@wishes.to.remain.anonymous.UA. I received no response from mt.gov when I wrote to them. Has anyone managed to make contact with an administrator at one of the sites David is posting through yet to find out what's in their logs? Has anyone gotten any respose from the Utah admins where the majordomo prods originated from? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 12:37:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA02618 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:30:55 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA02609 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:30:52 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA21789; Fri, 7 Jul 95 13:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 13:00:38 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: BE663F13 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: BE663F13 From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 12:27:20 TZ Subject: Mail bouncing queries? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950707192750MTP[01.00.00]00000122-693 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Again! I have yet another question for everybody. From the messages that I read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) support this feature. Are there ways to query the mailing lists to find out if they are actually using this feature (ie. bouncing mail from non-subscribers)? Any responses much appreciated!! Thanks, Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 13:51:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05721 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:25:48 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05704 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:25:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA28303; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:25:42 -0400 Message-Id: <9507072025.AA28303@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Paul Haas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 16:02:21 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 16:25:40 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas writes: >> My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday >> evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" > >Does your mail delivery agent (sendmail, smail, etc...) log the IP >address? If so what was it? Yes, it was 128.103.60.11 which is harvarda.harvard.edu. I've written to the postmaster there asking for their help in tracking this and emphasizing the fact that it's not just one list but rather a widespread problem. No reply yet. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 14:05:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05173 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:09:04 -0700 Received: from hamjudo.hamjudo.com (hamjudo.com [152.160.58.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05166 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:08:59 -0700 Received: by hamjudo.hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0sUJbU-0000IOC; Fri, 7 Jul 95 16:02 EDT Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Haas To: Mitch Collinsworth cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: <9507071811.AA27806@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: > My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday > evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" Does your mail delivery agent (sendmail, smail, etc...) log the IP address? If so what was it? None of my lists are well publicized so my site didn't get hit. The IP address and time of delivery is frequently sufficient information for the postmaster at the site to narrow it down to a few individuals. I have used Smail logs to track down the the source of joke messages from God@heaven.org and president@whitehouse.gov. (F.Y.I. "God" is getting his undergraduate degree in computer science. The "president" has a day job at a robotics company. Both have promised not to forge email again.) I suspect that this spammer won't be that easy to track down, but at least we would know what site he was really using to send the spams. --- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com Web site: http://www.hamjudo.com Home: (313) 487-8739 Office: (313) 487-4357 Fax: (313) 487-4371 Finger or email my hottub at hottub@hamjudo.com, seen on TV From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 17:35:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA20737 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:25:38 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA20672 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:25:14 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 4; Fri, 07 Jul 1995 17:23:18 PDT Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 17:23:15 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: ahyman@oise.on.ca CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00993016.CF2B9846.4@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"ahyman@oise.on.ca" 5-JUL-1995 06:59:14.64 > Subj: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) > On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner > > "copyright" the the contents of the list, > > I find this to be a very touchy issue. I personally moderate > 6 lists on three different hosts and serve as the assistant list software > manager for our site. I believe that voluntary lists (those people join > voluntarily) should vest copyright control with the poster, not the list > or the owner, but that posting implies consent for re-use, so long as the > identity of the poster is retained, including the owner, if the owner is > the poster. > Furthermore, I think the list, as a group, vests authority for > administrative duties in the owner (for example, dealing with spammers). > > I am a member of the H-Net cartel, a fairly significant consortium of > lists in the Humanities. There, as a condition for joining the cartel, > listowners "turn-over" copyright control to the consortium. This is > important, because potentially important documents (such as compiled > syllabi) are being produced - who owns them? While the owner may have > given up that right to the cartel, I question whether or not the owner > ever had the right in the first place. I think that the answer is no. > > Folks, we have the potential to publicly discuss this issue as list > owners. While we may not settle the matter, I think the proceedings of > this thread should be compiled as a discussion paper. If you all don't > mind, I would like to keep copies of the notes and compile them. > > I look forward to reading your points of view. > Avi > > ____________________________________________________________________ < > > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi, I think I may have mis-stated my point a little bit. What I meant to say was could the list of addresses themselves be copyrighted as a safeguard against spamming, or at least provide a legal recourse against spammers. -HWM From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 10:04:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA07721 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 09:46:22 -0700 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA07710 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 09:46:19 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17330 ; for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? To: t-benho@microsoft.com (Benjamin Holz) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> from "Benjamin Holz" at Jul 7, 95 12:27:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 806 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 12:27:20 TZ ... From the messages that I read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) support this feature. In the course of a discussion of spam defences on the IETF list, there was some support for the following protocol, which I kinda like: posting from subscribers is un-moderated, while posting from non-subscribers is manually screened. The mechanical filter is straightforward, and the moderation burden is not too bad. [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not infeasible.] Al gilman@access.digex.net From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 12:34:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09772 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:16:18 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA09767 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:16:14 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:36 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:35 +0200 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:35 +0200 Message-Id: <199507081915.17925.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: asgilman@access.digex.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> (message from Al Gilman on Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Al Gilman] | [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their | scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not | infeasible.] I'd be interested in hearing how this can be done without inconveniencing normal users. I'm can imagine a system where the new subscriber receives a random password from the list management software, which s/he needs to confirm. This way, we know a valid address for the spammer. Phase two: The spammer subscribes well in advance, and records the address of some other subscriber. The spammer can unsubscribe silently and without attracting attention. When the time for spamming comes, there will be a separate scape goat in each list. A solution to this is to require the use of the password I mentioned earlier in every mail to the list, ie. Subject: (password) Normal subject. The list management software will of course strip off the password, and bounce the message (including the password and information about it). Clearly, the last bit is a nuisance, but tolerable. Are there better methods? Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 13:34:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10674 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:21:18 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA10669 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:21:15 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23546 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:20:38 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA03203 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:20:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199507082020.AA03203@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? In-Reply-To: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 95 13:20:37 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > In the course of a discussion of spam defences on the IETF list, > there was some support for the following protocol, which I kinda > like: posting from subscribers is un-moderated, while posting > from non-subscribers is manually screened. The mechanical filter > is straightforward, and the moderation burden is not too bad. Actually, that's the way most closed lists (and most mailing list software) now work. Mail from outsiders is bounced to the maintainer, who can than ditch it or post it. I divert such mail to a special mail folder. If the mail is spam or otherwise unsuitable I just delete it. If it is from a real subscriber using a different address, I post it and then add their address to a special accept list so that future posts from that address get through. If I'm not sure, I email them telling them the posting policy and asking them to give me their subscribed addressed if they are indeed a member already. > [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their > scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not > infeasible.] Well, this is more of a pain for the spammer, since they will then get all the mail from the list till they unsubscribe. I have a very nice filter that will even catch most of these spams: I divert all mail greater than 3000K. Almost all posts to my list are very short, maybe 1 in 50 is longer than this (even the romance spam was longer than this -- and it was short for a spam). If the long post is legitimate, I add a special approve header so it goes through, if not, bye-bye. Such a low limit wouldn't be appropriate for all lists, of course, but it's mightily effective. I use SmartList, but most of the mailing list packages work this way (or can be made to with a little tweaking). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List http://www.fatfree.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 16:34:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA12453 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 16:10:48 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA12448 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 16:10:40 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sUixK-0001yAC; Sat, 8 Jul 95 16:06 PDT Message-Id: To: Benjamin Holz cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jul 1995 12:27:20 +0700. <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 1995 16:06:33 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have yet another question for everybody. From the messages that I > read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds > like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) > support this feature. Are there ways to query the mailing lists to find > out if they are actually using this feature (ie. bouncing mail from > non-subscribers)? > > Any responses much appreciated!! WHY ON EARTH DO YOU CARE? Trying to make it easier to figure out which lists you can spam? --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 18:35:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA15895 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 18:30:39 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA23672 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 19:00:05 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA14855; Fri, 7 Jul 95 19:29:55 -0700 Message-Id: <9507080229.AA14855@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 19:29:55 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: B781292E X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: B781292E From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 18:57:52 TZ Subject: Administrative messages to the list? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950708015834MTP[01.00.00]00000122-1362 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And yet another question from me today! I was wondering if messages are ever sent out to the lists (managed by any method) concerning the management of the list (ie. list address changes, list name change, etc.) and from what address these messages are sent from. I've been subscribed to a bunch of lists now and I haven't seen any messages like this. Do they happen often? Is it relatively random where they are sent from? Thanks for any responses!! Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 18:37:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA15686 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 18:24:23 -0700 Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA02749 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:36:10 -0700 Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm940906)) id AA12225; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:31:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avi Hyman, CSG" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: spam alert In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 910 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of my lists was hit today with phony attempts to subscribe. You should all be on the alert for bogus subscriptions from: sheik@SPARTAN.PEI.EDU Mr Sheik twc@CRL.COM Mr Vortex stumble@ELITE.ESCAPE.COM Mr Stumble jimi@NETCOM.COM Mr Fiend root@NEBULA.COM Mr Nimbus dpotter@PANAX.PUNK.NET Mr Potter If they do get through, they'll cause you bounce headaches, so be careful. (thankfully, I caught them first) Avi > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 9 10:04:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00581 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:37:11 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA00576 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:37:08 -0700 Received: (kinnaman@localhost) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.12.1) id LAA02632; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:36:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:36:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Ballew Kinnaman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Multiple recipients of list LSTSRV-L , Multiple recipients of list LSTOWN-L Subject: Web to Mailing List Interface Security Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mailing List Folks, As owner of the Allergy LISTSERV list, I am very satisfied with David Baker's WWW to mailing list interface (at Brown University), including the security provisions it offers. I have used the LWGATE for three weeks, and have had exactly zero problems. David responded quickly and directly to any questions I've had, and has already worked out every angle I tested him on. [The netspace.org server -was- down a short time a few days ago, but that's life.] Here is the URL: http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate The interface deals with four types of mailing lists: LISTSERV(TM), ListProcessor 6, Majordomo, and SmartList. The hardest part of getting my Allergy list into the LWGATE interface was cutting my list description down to the number of words you're allowed. The rest was easy and done with in under 5 minutes. With regard to the speculation that the recent rash of Mr. Rok, Mr. Shiek subscriptions may have come through the LWGATE I can answer unequivocally: Not one such subscription REQUEST has been sent through the LWGATE to my list. I review *all* LWGATE activity on my list, as a security precaution, and again, I am very pleased with everything about how this interface works. I agree with the suggestion that the Messrs. group is compiling a massive mailing list of good email addresses. They first subscribe, then REVIEW. However, my Allergy list is not interesting to them because 1) it is set to CONFIRM subscriptions and addresses (with a cookie) and 2) the Allergy list refuses requests (other than mine) to REVIEW the list of subscribers. I feel better, now that I've made it clear that LWGATE should not be besmirched for activities which are causing fears in some mailing list folks. David Baker has done a "good thing" (TM) for us, and his work is beyond question in my opinion. 8=]' Pax, Ballew ~ Allergy discussion list owner ~ Y'all Ballew Kinnaman 512/463-9321 ~ subscribe Allergy Your Name ~ come ~ to listserv@tamvm1.tamu.edu ~ visit! From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 11 15:05:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08014 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:55:07 -0700 Received: from cueyatl.uam.mx (cueyatl.uam.mx [148.206.100.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA08009 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:55:03 -0700 Received: by cueyatl.uam.mx (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA06199; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:22:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:22:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Rolando Montano To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Req. for help on french and spanish mailing lists Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pardon my sending this to the full list. I am not a member. Does anyone know of a list of spanish or french mailing lists. I have people here who want to find specialized lists in either of those two languages, wether in france/spain or elsewhere. Even listserv, listproc or majordomo addresses will do as a starting point to request a list of lists managed. Please respond directly to my e-mail address since i am not part of this list. Please excuse my sending this to the full list but i had no other point to search. Thankyou. Rolando Montano, mofr6133@cueyatl.uam.mx, Phone (52 5) 724 50 65, Fax (52 5) 724 5172, Autonomous Metropolitan University of Mexico / Xochimilco campus, Masters in Social Psychology / Groups and Institutions, Mexico City. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 11 17:08:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14719 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:38:18 -0700 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com (netcom22.netcom.com [192.100.81.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA19056 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 20:01:08 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id TAA27416; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 19:59:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 20:00:22 -0700 To: mac-eudora-forum@qualcomm.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Free Discussion vs Word Ownership (Was: Re: ArchiText) Cc: jcr@mcs.com (John C. Rivard) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pardon me for this verbose and slightly on-topic post, but hey, you guys got me started... and John's post was so right-on... anyway, please delete this if you're not interested and I promise to stop now. .................................. cut here .................................. At 6:21 AM 7/6/95, John C. Rivard wrote: >Technically, the individual posters own the copyright on their individual >comments (at least in the United States--when you create something and put >it in "readable" form, it is automatically copyrighted); therefore, >technically, Architext would have to negotiate individually with every >poster in order to *legally* publish their work. It is not sufficient to >get the permission of the list owner, because the act of posting to this >list does not invalidate the copyright of the author. Precisely stated, and well-met. Methinks a little more attention to these small "technical" details is in order. [elided] >Even ignoring the compensation issue, suppose I decide I want to write an >internet book (like we need another one). Then my postings to the list >might become more valuable (yeah, right) and I might not want them >available for free in a searchable index, when I want people to pay $$ to >get them in my book. Will I have to sue to regain control of my copyrighted >work from Architext? Would the courts find that since I didn't complain >when they started archiving it? This harkens back to recent discussions at the conference on Computers, Freedom and Privacy (CFP 95) about who exactly "owns" the record of all laws passed by local, state and federal government legislatures in the US - the archive/transcription company "West Publications" or The People? Amazingly enough, we citizens now get *charged* when we try to obtain copies, records of or even citations from our own system of government from this company - just because they "format" it using their own proprietary system of page indexing. They maintain a monopoly by sending Supreme Court Justices on luxury trips to the Virgin Islands. If you don't believe me, ask Jamie Love and/or send a msg to to subscribe to "tap-info" (Taxpayers Assets Project). If you can't see the relationship between this egregious status quo as concerns the very Law of Our Land (here int eh US at least) and the slow hunter's creep of companies attempting to "lock" content sources on the net for later profit, then I'm wasting electrons. If you can, then you can easily see the slippery effect that casually entering into a fiduciary relationship with a company like Architext represents: if they get enough "locks" on lists, they could end up making even just posting cost you too. A far-fetched rant, you say? Enter Microsoft, stage left. Take a look at the current battle between AOL and Microsoft over NBC's presence. Microsoft recently announced that NBC would "leave" AOL to provide "content" for the Microsoft Network (currently being unbundled from Win96...no comment...). Now, while NBC may indeed have been a pathetic player even on AOL, this nevertheless points to how fierce the fight$ over content will be. Lists like the Eudora Forum(s) may even someday be tossed back and forth *without the knowledge of list-members* by large companies that profit from charging to access to the knowledgebase they represent. Given Qualcomm's appreciation for freeware and free communication, this is unlikely, but it's an example of what could happen if we consent to this sort of thing now. Do *you* think your words/postings are without value to others? Perhaps you do, and you're free (all puns intended, always) to do so, but please don't make that assumption about *my words* for me. OK, I admit I'm incensed, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prick up your ears for a moment. (Like I said: all puns intended :). >This would probably be something that all posters to the list would have to >agree to ahead of time, i.e., when you subscribe it is made clear that >posting to the list indicates that you give your permission to Architext to >republish your work. Anyone who intends to charge for access to the content of this list in any way/shape/form does NOT have my permission to include MY comments in any commercial archive of the list's postings. Period. If they offer it for free, or offer to share profits based on individual compensation (something I fancy would cost them more than it's worth to them) then that's a different scenario entirely and I might participate. Not bloody likely, though. :) [elided] >* I fear that the copyright issues mentioned above might cause more >knowledgeable users, who have a lot to contribute, to bail out of the list, >diminishing its value I spend a fair amount of time on/behind this list and I know there are at least ten other people who do so too. We do it for free, and for the benefit of the other thousand people who lurk here, but our motives are not to volunteer our time for a for-profit operation. If someone wants to pay me to do this, fine, but personally, that's not why I came here. If you prefer to be able to search our wisdom for solutions instead of asking us directly, then just buy our book and meanwhile watch this list shrivel up. A vote for Architext is a subtle insult to anyone who believes in this software enough to spend time answering your questions here for free. If it comes to a commercial service doing something I can already do myself, I could still lurk the list, but I'd probably lose interest and go start another list (or just focus on a newsgroup). Whether or not anyone misses me is beside the point. People who tend toward volunteerism also often bring a certain positive fanaticism to their work. This is the basis of a lot or wonderful resources on the Internet - the ones that commercial ventures already expoit for profit a lot - which began as an academic/research thing. It may slowly become more and more Babellian, but not because I helped. This list, and pardon my waxing poetic here, has a certain pure, almost academic, spirit. Qualcomm itself doesn't even voilate this with lots of commercial postings and advertising (they do us the kindness of using another list for that, which you can choose to ignore). Those of us who use the Eudora software effectively try to help other people make the most of it and there's a free (keyword!) exchange of ideas. I share and learn a lot here myself, thanks to guys like Steve, Robert, Peter, Michel, Joe, Michael and Thomas among many others. If this list were to become another tired old info-sock that merely prostituted itself so that people with small hard drives and little net.history can pay to search it on a word now and then, it changes the whole ethos of the thing, imho. >* Call me an old netter, but the idea of charging for something that has >traditionally been done for free (archiving/indexing mailing lists) kind of >irks me. I know that these things cost money, and I know that money has to >come from somewhere, but it seems like the contributors (all posters to the >list) should be able to access it for free, after all they created all the >content. Bingo, you old netter. :) There are mechanisms already extant that let you search a list-archive, beginning with keeping a list-archive on your own disk like I do. Mine only takes up about 12 MB on my disk. No big deal. >* I don't understand the value-added of archiving such a noisy list. [elided] Perhaps we can arrange for a Web interface for the list. Then, those who wanted to could browse/search it with Netscape and CGI scripts. Cypherpunks (an much higher-volume list) uses this method, as do other lists. >Sorry to be such a wet blanket, I just wanted to bring up possible >downsides (and also point out some of the copyright vs. the Net issues that >we will be seeing more of) You're not a wet blanket, John. These are real, serious issues of great import that many people these days do not seem willing (or gnat's-MTV-attention-span *able*) to consider...even though, by rushing in blindly with no thought to who's profiting and what they're signing away, they may someday find themselves swimming in a totally commercialized (and ruined by a billboard-on- every-horizon) Internet. I'm glad that some people still care enough about the educational and altruistic core ethic of the net to speak out as you do. Anyone with any sense of History will tell these Architext people "thanks but no thanks, we'll do it ourselves for free" and ask them to move on and parasite off someone else. Anyone with any sense of respect for privacy, copyright and public-mindedness will also pass the word on them along to others who might need warning. I'm not anti-commercial. Far from it. $) There are many wonderful, profitable and appropriate activities for commercially-minded people on the Internet who know how to stand on their corner and shake some value out of what they've got to offer (not just by pimping others). I applaud their profit motives and encourage them to develop their own content (for a change). However, when entreprenurial zeal causes the Internet to "feed on its own young" in order to maintain an impossible rate of growth so that avaricious investors can see steep profit graphs - and when well-meaning people are sandbagged by silver-tongued carpetnetters and carelessly hand over basic principles of authorship and free association for a bottle of patent medicine - then something is very, very wrong in Mudville. dave ______________________________________________________________________________ "It's not a question of 'underdeveloped' nations catching up with the West, it's a question of the ethics of _overdeveloped_ nations with respect to those trying to achieve an appropriate standard of living." -"Third World" diplomat addressing the United Nations A little bonus note for those interested: .................................. cut here .................................. Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 17:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: [elided] Subject: Privacy Conference Announcement CALL FOR PAPERS for a Conf