From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 04:00:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA24568 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:51:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA24519 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:51:26 -0700 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com(192.100.81.129) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma024463; Tue Aug 1 03:50:24 1995 Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id DAA00101; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:47:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Cunningham X-Sender: scottec@netcom16 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Using a Program vs Moderation by hand In-Reply-To: <199508010230.TAA28508@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone out there moderating and/or running a list by hand as apposed to by a program like majordomo or listserv? Are there any advantages other than the obvious human element? (ie moderation by content with strategic canned replies, catching spams, avoiding technical dificulties etc) Are there utilities to aid in this and if so what. Thanks in advance - Scott Edward Cunningham [scottec@netcom.com] Seattle, Washington, USA - From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 04:31:42 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA25194 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 04:06:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA25186 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 04:06:42 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025183; Tue Aug 1 04:05:51 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:49 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:48 +0200 Message-Id: <199508011104.4127.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9508010107.AA00194@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> (scott@loc3.tandem.com) Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Scott Mueller] | I've been meaning to ask if anyone else got the first one, and | what they thought about it. I've been trying to decide whether to | round-file it or not. I sent a request for a guest account so that I could try out their search facility. They promise to provide basic searching for free to the Internet community. I was not impressed by their so-called natural language query engine, and got a lot of irrelevant hits (e.g. "Norwegian music" produced anything related to Norway, none of it about music). This might be due to a small information base. Anyhow, I can't see how it hurts to let them do the archiving. If someone finds out about Bel Canto and my mailing list through them, it's a bonus. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 08:34:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA01278 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:10:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA01253 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:10:19 -0700 Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov(128.219.128.125) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001247; Tue Aug 1 08:09:30 1995 Received: (from de5@localhost) by sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) id LAA01621; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:06:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199508011506.LAA01621@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: intentional mail loops In-Reply-To: <199507300402.AA02444@bolero.rahul.net> References: <199507300402.AA02444@bolero.rahul.net> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.87 (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.12 XEmacs Lucid of Wed Jun 21 1995 on morpheus (irix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Unfortunately, some loops are just inherently uncatchable -- no >unmoderated list in existance can perfectly discriminate between >all looped mail with a different message-ID and legitmate replies. Perhaps, but a few simple measures like checking for duplicate message IDs, an X-Loop header, message body checksums, and site-based rate limits (e.g., allow no more than N messages/hour from any host) effectively take care of almost all accidental and intentional loops. -Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 14:03:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA14148 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:40:19 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA14109 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:40:13 -0700 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com(192.100.81.124) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014100; Tue Aug 1 13:39:33 1995 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA26723; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:36:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-Floppyright: (c)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:38:30 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk THEIR VERSION: >Architext is an exciting new media navigation company. We're >developing a service designed to give users powerful ways to search >and browse the content available over the internet. > >We're calling our service Bullseye!, and we'd like to include your >mailing list(s) in the content that we index and archive. Other >content will include web pages, newsgroups and thousands of editorial >reviews. Basic searching and browsing will be free for all users; we >also plan to offer profiling services for a nominal fee. > >Would it be acceptable for Architext to subscribe to your list(s) as a >regular user and to keep archives of the list(s) content? This content >will always be freely searchable by any user of the internet. > >In exchange for your permission to index your list(s), we'd like to >offer you profiling services free of charge for one year. That way you >will be notified about new web pages and news articles that match your >profile. So you can stay abreast of new developments and make sure you >have the most current information available as it comes out. Don't be >the last on your block to get profiling from Bullseye! > >Architext was recently voted one of the top 25 cool technology >companies by Fortune magazine (July 10 issue) and was featured on the >cover of this March's Red Herring magazine. For more information on >Architext, check out http://www.atext.com. > >Bullseye! will be opening soon (around August 15) and we hope that we >can include your list(s) in this exciting service. > >If you agree to allow us to archive your list(s), please add us as the >user list@atext.com (non-digest form, please). And drop us a line >telling us which list(s) you've subscribed us to. > >Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you. _MY VERSION_: Archietext is an exciting new information scam company. It gives us hard-ons just thinking about how cool and idea this is. What we're doing is fishing around to see if we can throw up enough buzzwords to convince a few hundred thousand hapless suckers to fork over a few bucks apiece and send us their own list-content for free so we can sell it back to them. Cool, huh?! All _we_ have to do is archive lots of stuff, stamp it with our company name, maybe format the data a bit for some kludgey command-line text searches and we're in bidness. Nothing to it. We're calling our service Bullsh*t!, and we'd like to scavenge your mailing list(s) for all the content that we'll have to index and archive so we can pretend that we came up with. Other sources of content will include people's personal web pages, whole batches of newsgroups that we discovered we can copy off MIT's servers and thousands of editorial reviews that we think we can snatch and grab without anyone much noticing until we have so much money to pay a team of shark-lawyers that it won't matter anyway - they can sue our "corporation" until they're blue in the face. Searching and browsing on their own names and email addresses will be free at first for all users, but we also (and here's the kicker that convinced our Mom's to invest and buy us a couple of Suns) we also plan to scrounge around on the net for a zillion email addresses that we will then "organize" and resell to marketers who are still sitting on the fence about whether to give us pots of money to "connect them to the information super-railroad." Man, we get the greatest ideas getting stoned down in the garage, I tellya. Fortunately, we wrote this one down! So, uh, would it be acceptable for Archietext to copy all your list-files and keep archives of the list(s) content? The headers of the content will always be freely (and by that we mean that you'll still have "free will" in the Existentialist sense) searchable by any user on the Internet (for a nominal fee, of course). In exchange for your permission to index your list(s), we'd like to offer you some shiny beads and trinkets and the option to be a voyeur of other people's data free of connection charges for one year (we'll still find a way to charge you something by cooking up some "premium" services that take us almost no time to diddle up with a PERL script). After that, we'll charge rediculous amounts just to regurgitate your own data back to you and everyone else, but we have to get this thing rolling first so we can pay our Moms back for the machines and the frame relay line to our bedrooms. We'll even pretend to notify about new web pages we find on Yahoo's index while surfing on our new 384 f*ckin' megabit (cool! bet you don't have one of THOSE in your bedroom!) line late at night. Oh yeah, and we'll occasionally dredge up some free wire service articles from Eastern Europe (where they can't do sh*t about us legally) that match your profile in our flatfile database, but only if it doesn't take us too long, because we'll be cutting and pasting a lot. We'll dump an impressive enough pile of K's on your disk every day so it looks like you're actually getting something valuable in case any accountants at your office actually bother to check. Then, you can regurgitate all this crap back to your boss or your friends or whoever and it'll make you look really "computer savvy," because as you know, none of them really have a f*ckin' CLUE about any of this "computer" stuff anyway, right? Hell, you might even get a _promotion_ (but if you don't, don't come whining to _us_, 'cuz we'll be on the next plane to Bermuda with your money)! Don't be the last bozo on your block to pretend s/he's a super-cool "InfoNaut" by sucking data like a parasite from Bullsh*t! and spooing it out to your friends after you strip our headers off (hey, we don't give a damn, after all - turnabout _is_ fair play, right?). Archietext recently managed to bribe a big magazine - one that a bunch of Sales & Marketing Weasels with big honkin' expense accounts leave lying around open on their desks to impress their visitors - to give us a high-profile phoney-baloney award with an impressive-sounding name. We cut them in on the deal, see (but don't tell anyone!). Would you believe they actually arm-twisted one of their artists to texturemap our logo onto a geometric primitive way in the back of a recent cover image? It was rotated in perspective so you can hardly tell what it is, but what the hell - now we can use _their_ logos in _our_ promo stuff. Looks really good on our resumes too, in case this whole thing falls flat and we have to get a real job to pay our Moms back. If you need convincing that we can format HTML documents (hey, two of us _did_ get CS degrees!) check out our Web page at: http://www.assh*le.com/user/scam.html Bullsh*t! will be opening as soon as we can clean up our rooms and figure out how to hook these big-ass hard drives up to our new Suns (we figure by August 15 we can bamboozle enough fools to start it up convincingly) and we hope that we can soon start digitally ravaging your list(s) with our exciting scam. Listen: you won't feel a thing, we _promise_. By the time you realize you could get all this stuff for nothing by yourself if you just read a few manuals and readme's like we did, it'll be too late, but c'mon... it'll be fun! If you agree to sell us your list (and all the names on it, but let's not make too much of that until after you sign), please sneak us in as the user "list@assh*le.com" so none of your users notice us. Make sure we're set to CONCEAL and that we get everything in non-digest form so we don't spill a drop of your blood. Speaking of "drops," drop us a line telling us which list(s) you've subscribed us to, because we're too lazy to actually keep track of this stuff ourselves. Besides, we're busy reading this really cool Tony Robbins book and trying to work up the nerve to walk on hot coals next weekend. Thanks. Thanks for buying this line of crap like the sucker you really are, and... uh-oh, Mom's calling us down to dinner, so we'd better go now... Spiff Bung, Bullsh*t! Technical Guy (OK, so I _was_ an Art major, f*ck you anyway - YOU didn't think of this!) From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 16:30:59 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA21417 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:14:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA21376 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:14:51 -0700 Received: from uumail2.netcom.com(163.179.3.52) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021334; Tue Aug 1 16:14:15 1995 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA17663; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:11:04 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA01587; Tue, 1 Aug 95 16:09:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 16:09:48 -0700 Message-Id: <9508012309.AA01587@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto wrote: >THEIR VERSION: > >>Architext is an exciting new media navigation company. [blather we have all seen omitted] >_MY VERSION_: [highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained sarcasm omitted] >Spiff Bung, >Bullsh*t! Technical Guy >(OK, so I _was_ an Art major, f*ck you anyway - YOU didn't think of this!) I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the Month Award. Lord knows how sick I am of "there's money in the Internet waiting for you" articles that keep showing up in the non-technical press. Thanks Dave. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 19:30:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA05719 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 19:03:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA05675 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 19:03:45 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005665; Tue Aug 1 19:03:07 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sdT8F-000FPbC; Tue, 1 Aug 95 21:02 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:02:03 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9508012309.AA01587@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Aug 1, 95 04:09:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 563 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman commented about Dave Del Torto's evaluation of Architext: | ... highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained | sarcasm ... Agreed! Good job, Dave. | I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the | Month Award. I second the nomination. David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 "When lutefisk is outlawed, only outlaws will have lutefisk." -- bumper sticker I saw on a Nova at Oakton and Keystone From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 2 07:00:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA06035 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:31:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA05986 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:31:17 -0700 Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005964; Wed Aug 2 06:30:56 1995 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 95 9:30:44 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9508020930.aa19653@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin wrote: >Alan Deikman commented about Dave Del Torto's evaluation of Architext: > >| ... highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained >| sarcasm ... > >Agreed! Good job, Dave. > >| I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the >| Month Award. > >I second the nomination. I'll third it, but only if he comes over and cleans up all the coffee I just spit all over my monitor and keyboard. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 2 16:30:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06104 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:27:13 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06022 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:27:02 -0700 Received: from quadra.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.36) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006006; Wed Aug 2 16:26:15 1995 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:25:36 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Architext (OK, maybe they're okay after all...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI. -Brent --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 17:05:02 -0400 From: bostic@bsdi.com (Keith Bostic) To: /dev/null@python.bostic.com Subject: Architext (OK, maybe they're okay after all...) From: Chris Small These people have a sense of humor. They offer a service that generates MarketingSpeak (TM) at the click of a button. See http://www.atext.com/cgi/aimarket. Examples: Using groundbreaking fuzzy logic techniques, Architext has built multimedia engines for enterprise engines. Architext is a corporate leader in offering parallel solutions in an enabling enterprise. Architext offers corporate agents for client-server suites in a mission-critical workplace. Architext is a world-wide expert in providing multimedia turnkey comprehensive products in a distributed enterprise for client-server architectures. Architext delivers interoperable solutions in an empowering environment for enabling technologies. Using revolutionary fractal compression methods and groundbreaking case-based reasoning protocols, Architext has designed intuitive architectures for online solutions. Using groundbreaking fractal compression techniques, Architext has developed turnkey distributed solutions for high-speed engines. Architext provides enterprise technologies for empowering products. Architext is an industry expert in developing productivity-enhancing agents in a multi-platform environment. --- end forwarded text -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 18:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA28122 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:31:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA28095 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:31:35 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028081; Thu Aug 3 17:30:49 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA07055; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:24:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:24:15 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508040024.RAA07055@mas.atext.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: graham@atext.com Subject: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. My name is Graham Spencer, and I work at Architext software. I'd like to respond to some of the negative sentiment we've generated amongst list managers and others. This email is rather long, but I've tried to summarize the important points at the end. First: yes, we really screwed up with our mailing to list managers. I've explained this to a few of you in personal emails, but the basic problem is this: we accidentally sent out some mailings from the wrong account -- an anonymous account on a machine inside our firewall (list@cochese.atext.com) rather than the account of our engineer who's managing the project. This was an unfortunate mistake, but I want to stress that we weren't trying to "spam" anyone -- we sent mail to list administrators because we had a specific request for each of them. No doubt many of you will disagree, asserting that any mass-mailing is equivalent to spamming. However, the fact is that we were simply doing what we thought was polite, namely checking with list administrators before we subscribed to (and began archiving) mailing lists. Some of you explicitly state in your "Welcome to the list" messages that archiving is not permitted, and of course we won't archive those lists. It may not have occurred to others of you that anyone would want to archive your list, so we wanted to ask before we did it. In any event, let me reiterate that we were trying to be polite, and through user-error we really screwed things up and were perceived as being rude. We'll be much more careful in the future. Let me respond to a few specific comments: "Dave Del Torto" said, in an admittedly humorous satire: > convince a few hundred thousand hapless suckers to fork over a > few bucks apiece and send us their own list-content for free so > we can sell it back to them. I'm not sure why you think we're charging anyone (other than advertisers). But just to be explicit, our search service will be free to internet users, just like Yahoo and Lycos currently are. Like Yahoo and Lycos, we hope to make money from advertising. > thousands of editorial reviews that we think we can snatch and > grab without anyone much noticing The editorial that we're referring to is all original, written by our editorial staff exclusively for Bullseye. "Dave Del Torto" said, in a much earlier message: > [...] you can easily see the slippery effect that casually > entering into a fiduciary relationship with a company like > Architext represents: if they get enough "locks" on lists, they > could end up making even just posting cost you too. I don't understand why you believe that we're trying to get a "lock" on these lists. We're just trying to obtain permission to (non- exclusively) archive some of the content and make it available for searching. At the risk of being redundant, we have no intention of "locking" your list, owning your list, preventing other people from reading your list, charging people to post to your list, or charging people to search over your list. > If they offer it for free, or offer to share profits based on > individual compensation (something I fancy would cost them more > than it's worth to them) then that's a different scenario > entirely and I might participate. We do plan to offer it for free, and we hope that you'll agree to participate. > There are mechanisms already extant that let you search a > list-archive, beginning with keeping a list-archive on your own > disk like I do. Mine only takes up about 12 MB on my disk. No big > deal. There are many lists on the internet. Even experienced users may not know how to find a list that deals with a topic that interests them. And if they do find the list, their interest may be for the duration of a day rather than the weeks required to become acquainted with a mailing list. We want to index mailing lists so that 1) people won't have to know which list contains topics that interest them and 2) people won't have to keep 12MB archives of every list lying around on their hard drive. > (not just by pimping others). [...] and when well-meaning people > are sandbagged by silver-tongued carpetnetters and carelessly > hand over basic principles of authorship and free association for > a bottle of patent medicine - then something is very, very wrong > in Mudville. Frankly, I resent your accusation that we're "pimping others" and that we're "sandbagging" well-meaning internet users. *We* are well-meaning internet users. All we're trying to do is to create a navigation system that leads users to other content on the internet. Asserting that our navigation service will destroy "basic principles of authorship and free association" is simply absurd. "Gess Shankar" asked (almost a month ago): > It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user > of the Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the > access to the text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or > does it mean something else? "Free" as in no-cost. Searching over the index and retrieving (the entire text of) any of the articles in the index will always be free. Eventually we plan to allow users to store persistent profiles which we will probably charge for, but we will never charge for searching or retrieval. "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" said: > Anyhow, I can't see how it hurts to let them do the archiving. Thanks! I agree completely. =) I apologize for the length of this email, but obviously we had a lot of explaining to do. Let me summarize: * We made a mistake with our mailing. We apologize. * Despite our obvious error, we are a responsible company. Also, we aren't "sharks" -- our intention is not to exploit the internet, but rather to add value to it. * We plan to offer our navigation service for free -- users will never have to pay to search for articles, or to retrieve the entire content of articles. (We may charge for persistent profiles in the future.) Please contact me if you have further questions. (In case anyone is curious, I recently subscribed to the list-managers list.) I hope that despite our recent mistake, you'll consider allowing us to archive and index the contents of your mailing lists. Thanks for your time, --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 19:30:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA29508 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:02:38 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA29497 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:02:35 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029491; Thu Aug 3 19:01:40 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id SAA24991; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:55:50 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024989; Thu Aug 3 18:55:44 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seC2I-000FRIC; Thu, 3 Aug 95 20:58 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: graham@atext.com (Graham Spencer) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:58:54 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508040024.RAA07055@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 3, 95 05:24:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1718 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer of Architext wrote, | First: yes, we really screwed up with our mailing to list managers. | I've explained this to a few of you in personal emails, but the basic | problem is this: we accidentally sent out some mailings from the wrong | account -- an anonymous account on a machine inside our firewall | (list@cochese.atext.com) rather than the account of our engineer who's | managing the project. Both my lists got a letter with the subject "Apology from Architext" but it, too, came from the "lists" ID. It was signed with the name Jeff Young, but Young's .sig as well as his headers used the "lists" ID again. So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from lists@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write from it and even typed it into the .signa- ture; that sounds pretty much like a decision to me. Wearing swim trunks to church is a mistake, not an accident. | In any event, let me reiterate that we were trying to be polite, and | through user-error we really screwed things up and were perceived as | being rude. We'll be much more careful in the future. I was rough on Young in my response to the first one but a little gentler for that reason when I turned them down from my other list. They do deserve some points for stating their goals and asking first. Most people in their posi- tion just grunt a "subscribe" command [which I always turn down] to try to slither onto a list without prior contact to make arrangements and without saying who is behind "mlists" or "lists". David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 20:05:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00596 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:39:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00550 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:39:36 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000538; Thu Aug 3 19:39:25 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA08603; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:32:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:32:48 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508040232.TAA08603@mas.atext.com> To: dattier@wwa.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (dattier@wwa.com) Subject: Re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) said: > So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from > lists@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), > but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write > from it and even typed it into the .signature; that sounds pretty > much like a decision to me. Please note that even though we sent the apologetic mail from the wrong host, we did include a valid email address (list@atext.com, *not* list@cochese.atext.com) in that apology. (In fact, we mentioned list@atext.com three times, and never mentioned list@cochese.atext.com in the body of the message.) Jeff simply didn't realize that sending from cochese.atext.com was the source of the problem, so he repeated the mistake in his second mailing. It was definitely *not* a decision... To paraphrase Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by a lack of knowledge". --Graham PS: "cochese" is named after a fictional character; the spelling is deliberate (unlike our mailing from list@cochese.atext.com). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 20:30:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA02992 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:16:46 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA02970 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:16:42 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002958; Thu Aug 3 20:15:57 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seDDf-000FRIC; Thu, 3 Aug 95 22:14 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: graham@atext.com (Graham Spencer) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:14:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508040232.TAA08603@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 3, 95 07:32:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2197 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had written, | > So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from | > list@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), | > but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write | > from it and even typed it into the .signature; that sounds pretty | > much like a decision to me. Graham Spencer responded, | Please note that even though we sent the apologetic mail from the | wrong host, we did include a valid email address (list@atext.com, | *not* list@cochese.atext.com) in that apology. (In fact, we mentioned | list@atext.com three times, ... and Jeff Young's or any other real person's address zero times ... | and never mentioned list@cochese.atext.com | in the body of the message.) Jeff simply didn't realize that sending | from cochese.atext.com was the source of the problem, so he repeated | the mistake in his second mailing. We've a misunderstanding here, Mr. Spencer. There are two very separable issues: the host in the return address and the only username supplied for responses. I thought that your earlier apology was for the latter; you've now explained that it was for the former. You appear to stand by the latter. What I said the first time referred to Mr. Young's withholding any contact information other than the "list" address: that part was a decision, not an accident. The .signature address was list@atext.com and not list@cochese.atext.com, but it still was list@. | It was definitely *not* a decision... Including "cochese" may have been fortuity, but using "list" was design, and so was omitting any address that reaches a person instead of a daemon. | To paraphrase Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to malice what can | adequately be explained by a lack of knowledge". Right; I said that it was a *bad* decision, not that it was a *mean* one. | PS: "cochese" is named after a fictional character; the spelling is | deliberate (unlike our mailing from list@cochese.atext.com). Let me guess: this fictional character admired Cochise but couldn't spell? David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 14:03:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09051 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:53:13 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09035 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:53:10 -0700 Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com(192.70.231.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009030; Fri Aug 4 13:52:29 1995 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA28295 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:51:12 MST Received: from azcc.sps.mot.com ([222.90.5.1]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA04485; Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:51:06 MST Received: from hermes3.sps.mot.com by azcc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA13232; Fri, 4 Aug 95 15:48:01 -0500 Received: by hermes3 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20788; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:50:53 -0700 From: kirmis@hermes3.sps.mot.com (Deirdre Kirmis) Message-Id: <9508042050.AA20788@hermes3> Subject: Digested Lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:50:53 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to create a digested version of a list in my Majordomo list server. Haven't been able to find any good documentation on how to successfully configure it. My list homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/lists. My archives homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/archives. My digest homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/digests. How do I get a digested list to be sent out daily to the list members? ssilist is the list that the users subscribe/send to. ssilist-digest is the list where all the messages are digested (i think). When people send to the list, I would like the list to store the messages and send them out at the end of the day. Do I need two separate lists to accomplish this? If there is only one subscriber to ssilist (ie: the owner of the list) and everyone else is subscribed to ssilist-digest, would all messages sent to ssilist be digested into ssilist-digest based upon my example aliases file below? If that is the case, then how do I get the ssilist-digest to send the messages out only once per day? Can you please give me an example of a crontab entry (if it uses cron)? Is there any good documentation on digests (Majordomo digests for dummies)? Here is an example of my current aliases file: ######################################################################## # SSILIST List: SSILIST Distribution List # Creater/Maintainer: Deirdre Kirmis # Creation Date: 07/17/1995 # ssilist:"|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper resend -l ssilist -h hermes3.sps.mot.com ssilist-outgoing" ssilist-digest:ssilist ssilist-outgoing::include:/fs/hermes3/majordomo/lists/ssilist,"|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l ssilist-digest ssilist-digest-outgoing","|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -f /fs/hermes3/majordomo/archives/ssilist/ssilist.archive -a -m" ssilist-digest-outgoing:owner-ssilist ssilist-digest-approval:ssilist-owner #owner-ssilist: Larry_McCarthy-LLM001@email owner-ssilist: kirmis@hermes3 ssilist-owner: owner-ssilist ssilist-approval: owner-ssilist ######################################################################## This is my Majordomo.cf file: ######################################################################## # $whereami -- What machine am I running on? $whereami = "hermes3.sps.mot.com"; # $whoami -- Who do users send requests to me as? $whoami = "listbot@$whereami"; # $whoami_owner -- Who is the owner of the above, in case of problems? $whoami_owner = "listbot-owner@$whereami"; # $homedir -- Where can I find my extra .pl files, like majordomo.pl? # the environment variable HOME is set by the wrapper if ( defined $ENV{"HOME"}) { $homedir = $ENV{"HOME"}; } else { $homedir = "/fs/hermes3/majordomo"; } # $listdir -- Where are the mailing lists? $listdir = "$homedir/lists"; # $digest_work_dir -- the parent directory for digest's queue area # Each list must have a subdirectory under this directory in order for # digest to work. E.G. The bblisa list would use: # /usr/local/mail/digest/bblisa # as its directory. $digest_work_dir = "$homedir/digests"; # $log -- Where do I write my log? $log = "$homedir/majordomo.log"; # $mailer -- What program and args do I use to send mail? # The variable $to can be interpolated into this command line, # however the $to variable is provided by the person sending mail, # and much mischief can be had by playing with this variable. # Use $to with care. $mailer = "/usr/lib/sendmail -f\$sender -t"; # Majordomo will look for "get" and "index" files related to $list in # directory "$filedir/$list$filedir_suffix", so set $filedir and # $filedir_suffix appropriately. For instance, to look in # /usr/local/mail/files/$list, use: # $filedir = "/usr/local/mail/files"; # $filedir_suffix = ""; # empty string # or to look in $listdir/$list.archive, use: # $filedir = "$listdir"; # $filedir_suffix = ".archive"; $filedir = "$homedir/archives"; $filedir_suffix = ".archive"; # What command should I use to process an "index" request? $index_command = "/bin/ls -lRL"; # If you want to use FTPMAIL, rather than local access, for file transfer # and access, define the following: # $ftpmail_address = "ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com"; # $ftpmail_location = "FTP.$whereami"; # if you want the subject of the request to be included as part of the # subject of the reply (useful when automatically testing, or submitting # multiple command sets), set $return_subject to 1. $return_subject = 1; # If you are using majordomo at the -request address, set the # following variable to 1. This affects the welcome message that is # sent to a new subscriber as well as the help text that is generated. $majordomo_request = 0; # Set the umask for the process. Used to set default file status for # config file. umask(007); # the safe locations for archive directories. This should be defined as # a series of root anchored directory paths as will be used as prefixes # to the file names specified to the archive2.pl script. @archive_dirs = ( "$homedir/archives/test", "$homedir/archives/ssilist" ); # Set this to 1 if you want to use the experimental mechanism for allowing # / in user names. People with lots of X.400 addresses on their lists or # HP mail whatever may want to set this. However use it at your own risk. $analyze_slash_in_address = 0; # # these tune the experimental matching that is done for addresses with / in # them. If you haven't turned on the experimental analyze_slash_in_address # they are ignored. See the source for full explanation of these variables. # # if set to 1 ignore the requirement that addresses have an @ sign in the # address component after the last /. $no_x400at=0; # if set to 1 do not look for "/c=" and "/ad=" or "/am=" in the address. # X.400 seems to require these components. $no_true_x400=0; 1; Thanks for any information anyone can give me. Deirdre Kirmis # $Header: /sources/cvsrepos/majordomo/sample.cf,v 1.4.2.1.2.2 1995/01/07 17:35:03 rouilj Exp $ From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 16:00:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA15524 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:30:10 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA15431 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:29:57 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015416; Fri Aug 4 15:29:20 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00943 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:05 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17330; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:09 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16773; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:30 -0600 Message-Id: <9508042228.AA16773@lws489.salttn> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digested Lists From: "Franklin R. Jones" Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 16:28:30 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk =>I am trying to create a digested version of a list in my Majordomo =>list server. Haven't been able to find any good documentation on =>how to successfully configure it. Yeah, the docs are a bit thin... =>Do I need two separate lists to accomplish this? yes, sort of more line 2.5. the following is the full aliases for a digested list: in this case `fjtest' #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# aliases for list fjtest #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# fjtest: |//wrapper resend -l fjtest -h fjtest-outgoing owner-fjtest: majordomo-owner fjtest-request: "|//wrapper request-answer fjtest fjtest-approval: majordomo-owner fjtest-digest: fjtest fjtest-outgoing: :include://lists/fjtest, "| //wrapper digest -r -C -l fjtest-digest fjtest-digest-outgoing", fjtest-digest-outgoing: :include:/lists/fjtest-digest owner-fjtest-outgoing: owner-fjtest owner-fjtest-digest: owner-fjtest owner-fjtest-digest-outgoing: owner-fjtest fjtest-digest-request: "|/wrapper request-anwser fjtest-digest" fjtest-digest-approval: fjtest-approval fjtest-request: "|/wrapper majordomo -l fjtest" #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# end of aliases for list fjtest #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# the key is the resend to -outgoing which in turn calls wrapper to run digest. the digest itself is sent by cron with a simple email to the listserver such as : 0 17 * * * echo "mkdigest fjtest-digest " | mail majordomo@ I've replaced the paths I use with and my domain name with so if you replace those with your site specfic stuff and fjtest with your list name you'll be close. minimum files needed are: fjtest fjtest-digest fjtest-digest.info fjtest-digest.passwd fjtest.info fjtest.passwd hope this helps some if you have specfic questions, give them a go. fj.. '~`^`'-,._.,-'~|,._.,-'~^~`~'-,._.,-'~`~'-,._.,-'~`~'-,._.,-,._.,-'~`~'-,._ Franklin R. Jones Unix OS & Network Specialist Paranet, Inc. consultant to: USWest Service Assurance 7900 E. Union Ave,Suite 1100 frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com Denver, Colorado 80237 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 19:30:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA25303 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:06:05 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA25268 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:06:00 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com(192.20.239.134) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025252; Fri Aug 4 19:05:11 1995 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA16416; Fri, 4 Aug 95 19:15:57 EDT Message-Id: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 4 Aug 1995 18:26 EDT Subject: re: Architext In-Reply-To: <199508042104.OAA09325@miles.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto says: >THEIR VERSION: ... >_MY VERSION_: ... [Lots of reactionary bashing deleted (I could have found it funnier if weren't so mean-spirited).] If someone is archiving my list (something I don't have the disk space for myself), and is willing to do it for free and provide free search and indexing services, that's a benefit as far as I'm concerned. Even if they wanted to charge users for their services, that would probably be OK with me (although I would then want to understand the copyright implications); presumably, if someone is willing to pay for it, it's a favourable cost/benefit ratio for that person. Information flows sufficiently freely on the Internet, including information about information providers, that no one would survive very long trying to charge prices that were out of line with what's available free or at a much more nominal cost. It's absurd to cook up conspiracy theories that this person wants to monopolize a certain segment of otherwise-public information on the Internet! Having said this, though, I yet *did* have a problem with Architext's request, and did not add them to my lists, largely because they simply did not seem to have their act together. To wit: 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! My questions to them asking for clarification on some things (some of which Graham Spencer subsequently answered in his message to this list) was going to be completely buried in Gigabytes of list message ALL going to that same address! Perhaps their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being run by amateurs! 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that might have reassured me. 3. The misdirected e-mail didn't help establish credibility. 4. The excessive marketing hype was clearly the work of people unfamiliar with the Internet, otherwise they would have known that this sort of copy is treated pretty contemptuously on the Internet (they know now). So they need to establish credibility (which is a little like trying to re-establish virginity ...) and also anticipate and address the problems and questions that listowners might have with their proposal/request. They *were* courteous enough to ask list-owners' permission--my lists are open subscription and they could easily have subscribed themselves--which is a plus point in their favour. If they succeed in living up to providing the services they are claiming, it would be a nice service for some listowners. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 21:00:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA29714 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:39:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA29684 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:39:19 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029677; Fri Aug 4 20:38:52 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:42 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:38 +0200 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:38 +0200 Message-Id: <199508050337.7002.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> (merchant@anuxv.att.com) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Shahrukh Merchant] | 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! [...] Perhaps | their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all | out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being | run by amateurs! Sorting by the To/Cc headers isn't exactly rocket science. Of course, some terribly broken lists use the individual recipient's address in the To-header, and I suspect Architext must unsubscribe to these and some other strange systems. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 21:30:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01606 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:15:22 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01535 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:15:12 -0700 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com(192.100.81.124) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001511; Fri Aug 4 21:14:36 1995 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id VAA13576; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:11:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-Floppyright: (c)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:13:25 -0700 To: Graham Spencer From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:24 pm 8/3/95, Graham Spencer wrote: >Let me respond to a few specific comments: >"Dave Del Torto" said, in an admittedly humorous satire: Jeeze, it's gettin' so ya can't even _satirize_ folks these days without them becoming upset. ") Anyway, I'm truly glad you saw some jocularity in it, because it was meant mostly in fun. It speaks well of you that you have such an advanced sense of humor (and, I might add, of your Mom, who is/was undoubtedly a Lady of great couth, judging by your civil tone). Remember: it _was_ satire. Really. I merely deliberately exaggerated various features of your chap's post to produce a (grotesque) comic effect: I'm not trying to irrationally pick on you guys specifically. Well, not much. Actually, I'm more against the _idea_ of what you and other services like yours represent. I wrote in an earlier post about the similarity I see between what you're doing and what West Publications does by indexing the text of all legal procedings in the US and then claiming the right to sell it all back to the citizens. In other words, I have philosophical objections to your purpose. There are significant differences, since your materials are available on the net, but you and I both know that once mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, so someday, you will have people by the short and curlies if they want historical data. So, call me an irascible carbunc-er-curmudgeon if you will, but I'm just too disestablishmentarian to properly appreciate your service right now. If it turns out I'm wrong, I _promise_ I'll happily admit it, but I've been in this industry 15 years now, and that's long enough to believe that there's a glimmer of truth to my satire. Personally, I'd prefer it if you spent your time cooking up a way for everyone on the net to build widely-disseminated infobases, rather than attempting to control a centralized repository "service." I believe in things like the Web that support decentralized information connected by hyperlinks. That, imho, along with organic memory and optical computers is the Net of the Future. Hey, maybe you *do* have a nifty idea. Maybe lots of people *will* sign up. Maybe it *will* be free. Maybe higher primates *will* achieve flight and rocket from my colon - who knows? And maybe someday, after it becomes clear to me just where the flaws in your arguments are that allow you to provide this service for "free," you'll finally come clean about just what it is that you're trying to do and I'll be so impressed by your candor that I'll interested in checking it out. For now, however, consider any list I manage to be off-limits to your indices and archives as explicitly stated in their Welcome messages. dave ________________________________________________________________________ "Arguing with an engineer is like mud-wrestling with a pig. After a while, you figure out that the pig likes it." - Michael Sattler From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 22:00:50 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02240 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:40:17 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02225 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:40:14 -0700 Received: from mailgate.trader.com(204.120.67.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002221; Fri Aug 4 21:39:59 1995 Subject: Needed: list server From: WILLIAM MILLER To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <0089252.034915.9978.0001@trader.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 23:56:52 X-Mailer: TCON-SmtpToss [v1.1.0] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a list of hundreds of subscribers who have expressed interest in my mailing list (distribution list) pertaining to collectors and collectibles. I am interested in getting a site to run my list with their listserver, etc. I would like suggestions regarding no- or low-cost sites which might carry my list. Thanks. Private replies preferred, but I have recently subscribed. Thanks very much. eagle@trader.com William (Ed) Miller, ASEET Clayton, IN USA --------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Constitution : Void Where Prohibited By Law From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 23:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA05243 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:16:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA05235 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:16:49 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005232; Fri Aug 4 23:16:27 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA05285 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 5 Aug 1995 01:03:26 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12044; 5 Aug 95 00:36:52 CDT (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id AAA12041 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:52 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199508050536.AAA12041@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1069 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The eloquent Dave Del Torto writes: > but you and I both know that once > mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless > the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, Like me? I have close to 4 years of my mailing list archived, don't know how much it is currently but it was over 20 megabytes worth last time I looked. Being that it's tucked away in an obscure corner of the Web, it's not widely accessible, but it's there if someone happens to stumble over it. But it's something on the back of my mind, what if someone finds it and the other stuff I have and snarf it all for their own purposes? It's true that enough people have tried to make money off the PAML so I know it's a possibility. But what about Archietext? What if I say yeah, archive my list but then change my mind later and ask them to remove it. Would they? Or is there some agreement that once they have it, it's theirs forever? Or are they even organized enough to identify my list traffic to where they could find it and delete it off their system? From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 03:00:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA09180 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:37:56 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA09159 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:37:50 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009125; Sat Aug 5 02:37:42 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA12698; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:31:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:31:07 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508050931.CAA12698@mas.atext.com> To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199508050536.AAA12041@bonkers.taronga.com> (message from Stephanie da Silva on Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:51 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva asked: > What if I say yeah, archive my list but then change my mind later > and ask them to remove it. Would they? Or is there some agreement > that once they have it, it's theirs forever? Yes, we will delete your list from our archives upon request. We don't expect to have any permanent rights to archiving it. > Or are they even organized enough to identify my list traffic to > where they could find it and delete it off their system? All the mail we receive is sorted by source; it would be simple for us to delete all the articles from a particular list. I've added this question and answer to the info page at http://www.atext.com/archiving-lists.html. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 03:03:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA08757 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:30:42 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA08725 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:30:34 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008711; Sat Aug 5 02:29:37 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA12638; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:23:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:23:00 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> To: merchant@anuxv.att.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: graham@atext.com In-reply-to: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> (merchant@anuxv.att.com) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) said: > 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as Kjetil Torgrim Homme suggested in a later message, we do have software set up to sort email by sender. List content is diverted to individual archives, and non-list content is inspected separately by a human. So your email was most likely received as expected. > 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that > might have reassured me. I believe our delay in responding was more due to the bulk of mail from list administrators rather than from the lists themselves. > 4. The excessive marketing hype was clearly the work of people > unfamiliar with the Internet, otherwise they would have known > that this sort of copy is treated pretty contemptuously on the > Internet (they know now). This was another unfortunate aspect of our mailing; the letter was obviously written with the wrong tone for this audience. FWIW -- and this may not do much to re-establish credibility, but I'll mention it anyway -- most of us at Architext have been on the net for five or six years. > So they need to establish credibility (which is a little like > trying to re-establish virginity ...) and also anticipate and > address the problems and questions that listowners might have > with their proposal/request. To that end, I'm happy to continue answering questions in this forum, or via private email. I've also created a web page, http://www.atext.com/archiving-lists.html which tries to answer some of the questions I've already received. I can mail this page to anyone who doesn't have web access. I'd like to do whatever I can to make sure that from now on we're perceived as competent and responsible. (Which we really are.) --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 12:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA19007 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:25:14 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA18978 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:25:09 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018972; Sat Aug 5 12:24:58 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id PAA10816 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:23:50 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id PAA08316; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:14:34 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:44:03 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: graham@atext.com Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer writes: > > merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) said: > > > 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! > > Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified > a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as Well, you guys still seem to be at it, expecting responses to hosts which cannot be accessed at your site. A recent example at an attempt to get subscription information from one of my lists....When the server sent the information blurb, guess what? Received: from toast.eushc.org (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP id DAA10713; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 03:33:38 -0400 ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: No route to host ------------------------------------------------------------------- GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 15:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23099 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:39:42 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23075 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:39:38 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023065; Sat Aug 5 14:38:55 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id RAA48111 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 17:37:45 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id PAA08316; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:14:34 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:44:03 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: graham@atext.com Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk \9MN'KEJU.IT[)^+9X#W_9C&3?O(&=^!87V-YA3OX;_XX[1LZ<'2SJ-\-=<7 M+[MY92.-*]5UO@YS;_`I_6RP#>,L]HWCAK\5C^"[XJ#,RY76]7^N+&)&HO#?$$W^[OK[S[JV_T MKK/%&V?F\N'<,7/%T,L^*>C:<3'W8V$C`CPK`7S69+7,[*LC"#YGL25E@JO. M@_Y\F]UGFI0LI9C.GN72\P"@;Y#+ISR`YC9SN\6SE)>K@I*GC%/F**\I_U3" MU28$E^/5V>I+ZCG*0NW4&FG-`"1;:[VT/@"2H[6EVA[MLO:U=D_3=9\^7)\% M,#E7+Z1,J\7FQJY6B]M2Q_(,@.0^RT<`DY]93EN883.B#9_1$,!R/4#E-N., M<<',L'H?L*:\M8ZUN[67=0#HR<.L'UD_LR;;VMDVV]ZU';)=L'UEL]J]]GA[ M"D&FTHP/`Y0;'BXZ703,^1+L1?.OXWJ'1>N7^ M`)I/.;VN$%>H*Y:RKM9W-77U)4?]:-=.REU]S76+%E,ZW%$`F=L`++]VWW=K M'MWC,B,P,1]?HIG)V@^`.<6S"B!39.$S`###O!6\#;R#`3A15R[T/DL^E2,P MF%5*XS$C?`":?RJ'0%6+?'I)8H.H/C]&?;4>=$8+4=AGE=^[OJ;OL:I@1=OY M)6Y?_PDE;P.-9NV8:SUO3BK*A`?Q/#JS3T(41CU]=W%-I]Y1!W[\<%MQRM,_ MOKU^`"Y.P@-`'L9FO3HFDG)SU5 MW)$/N+LMFD_?)F45ZVH1UIQQV-)?(1(Y!XZJR@6B]49 M]4.[K*2\P44[\HNV%;3 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 15:02:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22939 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:35:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22917 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:35:35 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022911; Sat Aug 5 14:35:31 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seqrQ-000FGZC; Sat, 5 Aug 95 16:34 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:34:24 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 5, 95 02:23:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1125 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer still tries valiantly to answer his company's critics, including Shahrukh Merchant, who had written, | > 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that | > might have reassured me. And Spencer replied, | I believe our delay in responding was more due to the bulk of mail | from list administrators rather than from the lists themselves. I believe that the delay may be forever, because both of Jeff Young's mailings, as we discussed before, bore the unrepliable return address "list@cochese.atext.com" in their headers, and the reader would have had to know -- as Spencer told us later -- to change it to "list@atext.com" as given in the text of Young's letters. If only Jeff Young understood about Reply-To: headers. I received Young's second version at both my lists and replied from each. One has already bounced; one still has the transports plugging away. My decision has been not to bother writing again though I now know the working site name. Besides, who wants to send text that needs to be read by human eyes to something called "List Boy" instead of a person? From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 16:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA25617 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:42:29 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA25600 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:42:26 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025596; Sat Aug 5 15:41:43 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA16024; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:34:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:34:35 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508052234.PAA16024@mas.atext.com> To: gess@knex.mind.org CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, graham@atext.com In-reply-to: (message from Gess Shankar on Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar said: > Well, you guys still seem to be at it, expecting responses to > hosts which cannot be accessed at your site. A recent example at > an attempt to get subscription information from one of my > lists....When the server sent the information blurb, guess what? No, we stopped all of our mailings as soon as we started to see problems. We haven't mailed anything to any list managers in several days. > Received: from toast.eushc.org (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) > by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP > id DAA10713; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 03:33:38 -0400 > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > (unrecoverable error) > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... Deferred: No route to host My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal, but is it possible that this message was waiting in the queue for a few days, trying to find a route, until sendmail gave up and notified you? I guess the other possibility is that our internal machine queued the request for later delivery, and just recently mailed it to you. In any event, I assure you that we haven't sent out any new messages after our batch of "Apology from Architext" emails. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 00:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA08105 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 00:22:10 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA08097 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 00:22:08 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008093; Sun Aug 6 00:21:42 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id DAA23254 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 03:20:19 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id DAA14446; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 03:20:09 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 23:22:24 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 23:21:08 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar writes: > \9MN'KEJU.IT[)^+9X# MZ_Z4_.-CI]SYL'('J!M?E//EK[[#Y,+#9I.O[1D2.)/A]N<&/P`:IT*ZPO1# > MI"N<>W_9C&3?O(&=^!87V-YA3OX;_XX[1LZ<'2SJ-\-=<7 > M+[MY92<>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 12:12:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA14077 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:51:45 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA13738 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:50:58 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sman12397; Sun Aug 6 11:49:21 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id JAA10184; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 09:03:09 -0700 Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk(158.152.1.77) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010182; Sun Aug 6 09:02:47 1995 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by disperse.demon.co.uk id aa08964; 6 Aug 95 16:11 +0100 Received: from drink.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa24813; 6 Aug 95 16:08 +0100 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 15:41:50 GMT From: John Hein Reply-To: johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <37970@drink.demon.co.uk> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Smoflist X-Mailer: PCElm 1.11 Lines: 10 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there anybody else on here using this software? -- [ John Hein GM1YME | ] [ johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk | Phaggots do it on the phone! ] [ johndunedin@cix.compulink.co.uk| Sine Pretio Loquimini Omnibus ] [ Telephone: +44 131 558 1279 | ] [ TeleFax: +44 131 558 1262 | 38 B5/6 f+ t- w+ d g++ k- s++! r-- p ] [ Lambda BBS: +44 131 556 6316 | S8/9 b g- l y- z/ n o++ x-- a+ u- v- j++ ] From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 12:14:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA16673 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 12:03:04 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA15478 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:56:45 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaod2397; Sun Aug 6 11:55:19 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id EAA07866; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 04:11:54 -0700 Received: from cuci.ixe.net(205.244.45.192) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma007864; Sun Aug 6 04:11:25 1995 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.6.12/BuGless_1.00) id NAA15572; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 13:02:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199508061102.NAA15572@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 13:02:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: Graham Spencer's message as of 1995 Aug 5 Sat 15:34. <199508052234.PAA16024@mas.atext.com> To: Graham Spencer Subject: re: Architext Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer wrote: > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > ... Deferred: No route to host >My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal, but is it It's nice to be so honest; but wouldn't you say that having more than minimal knowledge about sendmail would be a first requirement for any firm that wants to subscribe to and archive thousands of mailinglists? Or are there other people at architext that are experts at sendmail and mailinglist manager software? -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Time is nature's way of making sure everything doesn't happen at once. From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 18:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28417 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:19:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28401 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:19:20 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028397; Sun Aug 6 18:19:05 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA24542; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:48:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:48:45 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508062348.QAA24542@mas.atext.com> To: srb@cuci.nl CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199508061102.NAA15572@hera.cuci.nl> (srb@cuci.nl) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wrote: > My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal [...] to which srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) replied: > [...] but wouldn't you say that having more than minimal > knowledge about sendmail would be a first requirement for any > firm that wants to subscribe to and archive thousands of > mailinglists? > Or are there other people at architext that are experts at > sendmail and mailinglist manager software? Yes, we have others at Architext who have much more experience dealing with sendmail and other sysadmin sorts of things. And the underlying reason for our recent troubles was a lack of sufficent communication between Jeff Young and our sysadmins, a mistake which we plan to avoid in the future. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 09:30:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA19850 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:04:16 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA19834; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:04:12 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019830; Mon Aug 7 09:03:38 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26895; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:24 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06421; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:24 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19206; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:47 -0600 Message-Id: <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 Aug 1995 16:48:45 PDT." <199508062348.QAA24542@mas.atext.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 -0600 From: "Franklin R. Jones" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all, Anyone out there coupled a majordomo list to a local newsgroup? e.g. anything posted to the list appears in the news group and anything posted to the newsgroup is reflected to the majordomo list without dup'ing back to the newsgroup. I have ideas on how this can be done, but I assume someone must have tackled this before. any input? fyi: newsfeed is inn, majordomo 1.93, perl 4.036, Solaris 2.4 this was cross posted to both list-managers & majoromo-users. thanks, fj.. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 10:00:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20918 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:51:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20888; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:51:20 -0700 Received: from smuggler.bbn.com(128.89.7.132) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020881; Mon Aug 7 09:51:15 1995 Received: from smuggler.bbn.com (LOCALHOST.BBN.COM [127.0.0.1]) by smuggler.bbn.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA03047; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:49:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071649.MAA03047@smuggler.bbn.com> To: "Franklin R. Jones" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 MDT." <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:49:26 -0400 From: "John C. Orthoefer" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Anyone out there coupled a majordomo list to a local > newsgroup? This has nothing to do with majordomo. Look for a package called newsgate. It implements the bidirectional feed news <-> mail. johno - John Orthoefer | Take this out and a Unix Demon will dog your steps from | now until the time_t's wrap around. 617-873-6188 | -- Curse from the tunefs(8) man page source From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 10:02:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20998 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:53:26 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20967; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:53:20 -0700 Received: from europe.std.com(192.74.137.10) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020961; Mon Aug 7 09:52:58 1995 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA01965; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00610; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071651.AA00610@world.std.com> To: "Franklin R. Jones" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 EDT." <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: "Franklin R. Jones" >newsgroup? > > e.g. anything posted to the list appears in the news group and >anything posted to the newsgroup is reflected to the majordomo list >without dup'ing back to the newsgroup. Here's what I do for this. This is a repeat of my posting here on 1 June 95. ...eliz To explain how this is set up, I'll use my gateway of rec.arts.theatre.musicals as an example. I offer a straight bounce list and a digest version of the newsgroup to email subscribers. All messages to the newsgroup are automatically sent to the mailing list. In order to keep things from looping, submissions to the list aren't sent to the list, they are posted to the newsgroup and then find their way to the list. The /etc/aliases entry: # musicals: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -l musicals -h world.std.com musicals-outgoing" musicals-outgoing: :include: /usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/musicals, "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l musicals-digest musicals-digest-outgoing" owner-musicals: eliz musicals-request: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l musicals" musicals-approval: eliz # musicals-digest: musicals-post musicals-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/musicals-digest musicals-digest-request: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l musicals-digest" musicals-digest-approval: eliz owner-musicals-digest: eliz owner-musicals-digest-request: eliz # musicals-post: "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news rec.arts.theatre.musicals world" # The /usr/lib/news/sys entry: musicals:rec.arts.theatre.musicals/all,!local,!wstd::/bin/mail musicals@world.std.com The config file sets the list to use 'musicals-post@world.std.com' as the Reply-To address so replies go to the newsgroup. The program "news2mail": #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Gateway a local news group back to a mailing list # Written by Spike (spike@world.std.com) # add "local.group.name local-mail-alias" to /usr/lib/news/moderators # add then add something like to /etc/aliases: # local-mail-alias: # "|/usr/local/lib/news/news2mail list-address@somehost" $list = shift; if ($list eq "-") { open(MAIL,"|/bin/cat -u"); } else { open(MAIL,"|/usr/lib/sendmail $list"); } while (<>) { next if (/^From /); last unless (/^[^ \t]*:/ || (/^[ \t]/ && $. > 1)); if (/^Newsgroups: /i || /^Distribution: /i || /Apparently-To: /i || /^Received: /i) { $killed_last = 1; next; } next if (/^\s+/ && $killed_last); $killed_last = 0; print MAIL $_; } print MAIL "To: $list\n"; print MAIL "\n" if /\S+$/; print MAIL $_; while (<>) { print MAIL $_ ; } [end] I also have another setup that gateways a primary mailing list to a newsgroup for easier reading. The newsgroup is marked as moderated, and the moderator's address is given as the post-to-the-list address for the mailing list. This makes it work in reverse of the musicals list above - the musicals list gets its postings from the group, and messages from the members are sent to the newsgroup and then back to the list. The reverse gets all the newsgroup postings from the mailing list only, and any postings to the newsgroup are sent to the list and posted from there to the newsgroup as if the moderator had approved them. In order to do this, the newsgroup posting address (foobarlist-dist@world.std.com) must be subscribed to the mailing list. The /etc/aliases entry (wstd is my local newsgroup hierarchy): foobarlist-dist: wstd-mail-foobarlist wstd-mail-foobarlist: "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news wstd.mail.foobarlist wstd" post-wstd-mail-foobarlist: "|/usr/local/lib/news/news2mail foobarlist" foobarlist: foobarlist@real.address.here foobarlist-request: foobarlist-request@real.address.here The active file entry: wstd.mail.foobarlist 0000003259 02963 m And the program "mail2news": #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Gateway a mailing list to a local news group. # Written by Spike (spike@world.std.com) # invoked for /etc/aliases with a alias like # mailing-list-rdist: # "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news local.news.group.name distribution" $group = shift; $dist = shift; if ($group eq "-") { open(INEWS,"|/bin/cat -u"); } else { open(INEWS,"|/bin/inews -h"); } while (<>) { next if (/^From /); last unless (/^[^ \t]*:/ || (/^[ \t]/ && $. > 1)); if (/^To: /i || /^Cc: /i || /^Received: /i || /Apparently-To: /i || /^Return-Path: /) { $killed_last = 1; next; } next if (/^\s+/ && $killed_last); $killed_last = 0; print INEWS $_; } print INEWS "Newsgroups: $group\n"; print INEWS "Distribution: $dist\n"; print INEWS "Approved: usenet@world.std.com\n"; print INEWS "\n" if /\S+$/; print INEWS $_; while (<>) { print INEWS $_ ; } [end] From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 11:31:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23250 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:21:08 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23122; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:20:51 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023058; Mon Aug 7 11:19:53 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06148; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:44 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA08809; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:58 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19931; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:19:03 -0600 Message-Id: <9508071819.AA19931@lws489.salttn> To: Elizabeth Lear Cc: "Franklin R. Jones" , list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:51:47 EDT." <199508071651.AA00610@world.std.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:19:02 -0600 From: "Franklin R. Jones" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk =>Here's what I do for this. This is a repeat of my posting here on 1 =>June 95. Thanks, eliz! That's exactly what I was looking for (with about the exact same implemption I was planning.) I must have missed it the first time you posted it. fj.. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 21:00:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA18186 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:48:41 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA18167 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:48:38 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com(192.20.239.134) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018161; Mon Aug 7 20:47:53 1995 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA20322; Mon, 7 Aug 95 23:17:06 EDT Message-Id: <9508080317.AA20322@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 7 Aug 1995 13:55 EDT Subject: re: Architext In-Reply-To: <199508071630.JAA20198@miles.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I said: | 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! [...] Perhaps | their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all | out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being | run by amateurs! to which Kjetil Torgrim Homme says: >Sorting by the To/Cc headers isn't exactly rocket science. Of course, >some terribly broken lists use the individual recipient's address in and Graham Spencer adds: >Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified >a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as >Kjetil Torgrim Homme suggested in a later >message, we do have software set up to sort email by sender. List >content is diverted to individual archives, and non-list content is Sorry, still not good enough! For one thing, Graham Spencer of Architext says this is handled by "sorting mail by sender." Clearly this doesn't work if he means the "From:" field. Perhaps he means the "Sender:" field in which case at least some of the popular MLMs put in a Sender: field that uniquely incorporates the list name. But is this guaranteed? What if there is no Sender: field? What if I send them personal e-mail with my own address in the Sender: field? Does their mail filter assume I am a list AND START ARCHIVING MY MESSAGES TO THEM FOR THE WORLD TO SEE? Or should one assume from Architext's casual invitation to "drop us a line to tell us that you have [added their address to your list]" to mean that they only start archiving once (and if) they get this message from the list owner? Or is all mail by default sent to a person and once that person establishes the actual "Sender:" field for a list, then that address is diverted to an archive? Or perhaps they really are using the "To/Cc:" fields as Kjetil Torgrim Homme assumes. Many of the same issues still apply! Suppose I send a message to list-managers with Cc: list@atext.com. Do they automatically start archiving it under a "list-managers" list archive, creating one for that purpose? Or does their filter exclude any message from being archived that has list@atext.com anywhere in a To: or Cc: field? And what if I put it in a "Bcc:" field? What if I put Cc: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no? Would it think that that's a list and create a *public* archive under that name for what is really personal mail from me to the Architext administrator and him? Would it make a difference which address were in the "To:" field and which in the "Cc:"? Yes, it's trivial to write a mail filter to handle all these cases and then some. But it's not trivial to anticipate all these cases, and it's even less trivial to convey to those like me (who waste my time wondering about special cases) some confidence that *they've* thought about all the special cases. And the casual way in which list owners were asked to add list@atext.com to their lists hardly gave much reassurance that all these things were considered! (And all this just to wonder why they didn't respond to my e-mail!) I'm actually supportive of their efforts, as I indicated in my earlier e-mail, and I've tried to make my criticism constructive. But, I say to Architext, "Go back and think about every concern that anyone has raised in this discussion and *address it*. I'm no expert on copyrights, for instance, but people bring up potential copyright problems associated with Architext's "reselling" this information and this 'scares' me (justifiably or not is irrelevant). So have *your* lawyers study the copyright issue, write up a statement that addresses every actual or potential concern you can think of that a list owner may have, and include this in your FAQ to list owners whose cooperation you're seeking." [Better late than never--I'm glad to see per Graham Spencer's e-mails that Architext has made a start at doing this sort of thing, and so I'll give them a week or two and check out their Web "answers" page....] Shahrukh From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 21:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA19203 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:29:57 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA19195 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:29:55 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019193; Mon Aug 7 21:29:12 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA27838 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:28:00 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508080428.WAA27838@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: re: Architext To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:27:59 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 567 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Sorry, still not good enough! For one thing, Graham Spencer of > Architext says this is handled by "sorting mail by sender." Clearly > this doesn't work if he means the "From:" field. Perhaps he means the > "Sender:" field in which case at least some of the popular MLMs put > in a Sender: field that uniquely incorporates the list name. But is > this guaranteed? [...] This is wandering off into the Land of Ludicrous Vendettas. Can we please call a halt to the straw-man flamage around this issue? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 8 00:00:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA21893 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:48:28 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA21845 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:48:21 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021835; Mon Aug 7 23:47:31 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA04577 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:29:15 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA01271; 8 Aug 95 01:17:33 CDT (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id BAA01268 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:17:32 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199508080617.BAA01268@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:17:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 918 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore: [Decided to clean out my mailbox here] > Maybe you could put a note in your list of lists to the effect that > one should only post messages that were on topic, and that one should > NEVER send the same message to all lists. At least the honest people > would know better then. I have been meaning to write a FAQ for months now to post to news.announce.newusers and have just never gotten around to it. Too many other projects going on (several which I've decided to shut down, like most of my newsreading) and I always shuffled it to the backburner. In it I plan to describe what mailing lists are, moderated vs. open, manual vs. managed with a listserver, the most common flavours of listservers, how to subscribe and unsubscribe, how to contact the list manager and a brief rundown of list etiquette. Woo, a bit more complex than it sounds on the surface. I'll get to it one of these days. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 8 13:01:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA19656 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:30:11 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA23692 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:17:57 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023681; Fri Aug 4 08:17:46 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA22172 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:16:34 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508041516.JAA22172@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: bounce filter? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:16:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 424 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else designed a filter for all the bounce messages that end up in a list manager's mailbox? I'm getting ready to whip one up that'll junk all the messages I know I don't need to see (all the "waiting mail" notifications, etc.), auto-unsubscribe deleted accounts...but if there's already something similar out there I don't want to duplicate the effort. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 9 12:02:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09140 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:57:55 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09055 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:57:43 -0700 Received: from canaima.me.berkeley.edu(128.32.142.70) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009030; Wed Aug 9 11:57:05 1995 Received: (from herrera@localhost) by canaima.ME.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA45187 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:56:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:56:34 -0700 From: Ramon F Herrera Message-Id: <199508091856.LAA45187@canaima.ME.Berkeley.EDU> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Looking for mailing list on CIX and related items Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is the closest place that I have found so far so ask my question, so please bear with me. I need to read about issues such as: CIX, how to handle partnership between Internet provider companies, ("if you send so many packets/bytes through my network, and I send so many, then you should pay me such and such at the end of the month"). Other issues would be the demark beetween government-sponsored networks and private ones. How is it best to split the Internet "pie" between fiercely competing companies that want to enter the ISP market in a country that recently "discovered" the Internet (geographically? by industry or level of reliability/confidentiality required?) I suppose that there must be some place on the Internet where the management and polices of the net itself are discussed. Mailing lists? Newsgroups? Other source of info on this topic? Isn't there something like 'isp-managers' mailing list? Thanks, -Ramon Herrera From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 9 21:30:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA08255 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 21:09:47 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA08188 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 21:09:39 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008174; Wed Aug 9 21:08:41 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by hostname.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA02177 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:09:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199508100409.XAA02177@hostname.schoneal.com> Subject: Hot Dog wonders... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:09:20 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1540 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto said... | |Actually, I'm more against the _idea_ of what you and other services like |yours represent. I wrote in an earlier post about the similarity I see |between what you're doing and what West Publications does by indexing the |text of all legal procedings in the US and then claiming the right to sell |it all back to the citizens. In other words, I have philosophical |objections to your purpose. There are significant differences, since your |materials are available on the net, but you and I both know that once |mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless |the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, so someday, you will |have people by the short and curlies if they want historical data. [Just some thoughts from the flip side...] This suggests that most people either can't afford the disk space, or are too short-sighted to save the data, or too lazy/untechnical/etc to set up archival/retrieval software. In any case, if someone else goes to the trouble to do all this, and charges a price people are willing to pay, it's a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing. Yeah, copyright issues have to be hashed out, but that's beside the point. If you can't afford a GB of disk (gee, it costs so *much* nowadays... 8^), or won't shell out the bucks, then why should someone else archive/index it for free for you? I love the Interet. I love free information. I also recognize that neither computers nor networks are free - they are paid for in money, or in time & effort. -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 10 09:30:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA25237 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:07:52 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA25196 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:07:46 -0700 Received: from turbo.kean.edu(131.125.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025166; Thu Aug 10 09:07:02 1995 Received: by turbo.kean.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Feb95-0139PM) id AA23451; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:07:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Redman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FAQ? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm looking for either a list-managers-FAQ or a Majordomo-FAQ. Would anyone know of a site/place where I could get such a thing? Thanks in advance? **************************************************************************** Paul Turner | Kean College | &&&&& & & &&&&& &&&&&&& &&&&&& E-mail: pault@turbo.kean.edu |& & & & & & & & & & |& & & & & & & & | &&&&& & &&&&& &&&& & & &&&&&& Old men have dreams but | & & & & & & young men have vision. |& & & & & & & & - Seekers | &&&&& & &&&&& &&&&&&& & From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 10 15:00:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14439 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:34:54 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14393 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:34:46 -0700 Received: from turbo.kean.edu(131.125.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014379; Thu Aug 10 14:34:14 1995 Received: by turbo.kean.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Feb95-0139PM) id AA28338; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:34:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Redman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: OSF/1 3.2b Wrapper - errors.. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks Dave & Doug, I went to the Web site and found the page. But, it wasn't much help. I have a DEC Alpha 2100, running OSF/1 ver 3.2b. I've run into a snag with the "make wrapper". All the files wrapper.c & wrapper.sh are in the current directory. When I try to make wrapper I get this # make wrapper cc -DBIN=\"/usr/local/majordom\" -DPATH=\"PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb\" -DHOME=\"HOME=/usr/local/majordom\" -DSHELL=\"SHELL=/bin/csh\" -DMAJORDOMO_CF=\"MAJORDOMO_CF=/usr/local/majordom/majordomo.cf\" -DPOSIX_UID=54 -DPOSIX_GID=54 -DSETGROUP -o wr apper wrapper.c /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/cfe: Warning: wrapper.c, line 65: illegal combination of pointer and integer if (strchr(argv[1], '/') != (char *) 0L) { -----------------------------^ /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/cfe: Warning: wrapper.c, line 99: illegal combination of pointer and integer char setgroups_used = "setgroups_was_included"; ---------^ My home directory for Majordomo is /usr/local/majordom. My Makefile is set for POSIX. If anybody has some insights/suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated. .............................................................................. Joshua | __________________ Kean College Sys-op | ( I don't do ) Voice: 908-527-2061 | ( ) Email: joshua@turbo.kean.edu | ( Windows!!! ) | ( ) "All things will unfold as | ( I only do Motif! ) they should" | `---. ,------------' -Seekers | |/ | 0 ' | --|-- | | | /^\ From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 14 13:30:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA02785 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:07:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA02365 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:06:47 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smac02313; Mon Aug 14 13:06:10 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id MAA24275; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:54:06 -0700 From: sfn@washington.cospo.osis.gov Received: from relay2.cospo.osis.gov(198.81.186.194) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024263; Mon Aug 14 12:53:46 1995 Received: by relay2.cospo.osis.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26716; Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:52:57 EDT Received: from washington.cospo.osis.gov(198.81.161.68) by relay2.cospo.osis.gov via smap (V1.3) id sma026713; Mon Aug 14 15:52:33 1995 Received: from UPC20.cospo.osis.gov by washington.cospo.osis.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA17470; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:05:08 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:54:03 PDT Subject: Problem with Majordomo on HPUX 9.05 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: Chameleon ARM_55, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to set up a Majordomo on a HP running HPUX 9.05. When I send a message to majordomo I get the following error message. Can anyone offer some suggestions?? majordomo: Exec format error 554 "|/usr/local/lib/mail/majordomo/sbin/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 5 _____________________________________________________ |Company: Q U A L I T Y S Y S T E M S I N C. | | __ __ _____ | |Real Name: Scott Nichols / \ / \ | | |Office Phone: (703) 281-8908 | | \__ | | |Office Fax : (703) 242-0013 | | \ | | |Compuserve 71620.1434 \ __ / \__/ __|__ | |Internet sfn@qsi.com \ | |_____________________________________________________| From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA27580 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:30:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA27554 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:30:39 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma027541; Wed Aug 16 17:30:22 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA14033 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 963 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I've finally been able to setup an experimental list server. Many thanks to Mr. Chapman for writing such an ingenious piece of software! I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config file which states: : # reply_to [word] () : # Put a reply-to header with value into the outgoin message. : # If the token $SENDER is used, then the address of the sender is used : # as the value of the reply-to header. This is the value of the reply- : # to header for digest lists. : reply_to = As you can see, it's for "digest lists". I am interested in regular mailing lists. If there is a way to do, I'll really appreciate if you could help me out here. Thanks. -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:30:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA29338 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:25:08 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA29319 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:25:05 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029310; Wed Aug 16 18:24:26 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA14596; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:23:02 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu (Soren Dayton) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:23:02 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170113.UAA10854@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> from "Soren Dayton" at Aug 16, 95 08:12:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 738 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: : [ snipped ] : I am curious what people think of this. : : Soren Dayton Sometimes, you really don't care who is sending the mail, you just want the replies to be distributed to the members. This kinda situation is most likly to arise in a mailing list which is considerably small and you know the emails of all the members. By small I mean, around 10-20 members. You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:37:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28982 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:11 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28940 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:01 -0700 Received: from midway.uchicago.edu(128.135.12.73) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028885; Wed Aug 16 18:14:24 1995 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA04826; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:13:09 -0500 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA10854; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:13:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199508170113.UAA10854@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> To: Muhammad Salman Mughal cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 CDT." <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:12:59 CDT From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the message <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com>, Muhammad Salman Mughal said: > I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag >in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config >file which states: This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: 1. It rewrites a header that the user put there that is not dangerous. 2. It makes it harder to make individual responses to the author of the letter. 3. By my reading of RFC 822 it is not acceptable behaviour. This RFC seems to indicate that this is defined by the originator, not by the mailing list software I am curious what people think of this. Soren Dayton From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:30:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00871 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:02:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00855 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:02:37 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000847; Wed Aug 16 19:01:40 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08827; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:59:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508170159.UAA08827@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: salman@earth.sparco.com (Muhammad Salman Mughal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:59:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> from "Muhammad Salman Mughal" at Aug 16, 95 08:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 667 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Muhammad Salman Mughal writes: > You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in > the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for > overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) It would greatly behoove you to invest that time in reading the docs for your mail user agent (Elm as I see from the X-Mailer header) instead of hacking code. I'd start at the G)roup-reply command. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:33:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00835 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:00:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00795 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:00:37 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000785; Wed Aug 16 19:00:09 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA14925; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:58:45 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170158.UAA14925@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: salman@earth.sparco.com (Muhammad Salman Mughal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:58:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> from "Muhammad Salman Mughal" at Aug 16, 95 08:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 922 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : : This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: : : : : [ snipped ] : : : I am curious what people think of this. : : : : Soren Dayton : : Sometimes, you really don't care who is sending the mail, you just : want the replies to be distributed to the members. This kinda situation : is most likly to arise in a mailing list which is considerably small and : you know the emails of all the members. By small I mean, around 10-20 : members. You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in : the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for : overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) I know you can include the listname email address in CC section, but I think it would be neat to just do a "reply" and start typing your comments :-) -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:36:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA01823 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:21:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA01781 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:21:53 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001745; Wed Aug 16 19:21:01 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id VAA15070; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:19:32 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170219.VAA15070@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170159.UAA08827@chinacat.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Aug 16, 95 08:59:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 970 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : : Muhammad Salman Mughal writes: : > You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in : > the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for : > overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) : : It would greatly behoove you to invest that time in reading the docs : for your mail user agent (Elm as I see from the X-Mailer header) : instead of hacking code. I'd start at the G)roup-reply command. I guess I was a little too obscure while stating my reasons for overriding the default "Reply-To:" tag. I simply think that "sometimes" there is no need to directly reply to the sender. All you want is that the reply should go back to the mailing list. Moreover, if you know the person who is sending the mail, you could always do a "forward" to his/her email address if you want to send a private note. Regards, -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 21:00:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA05794 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:39:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA05785 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:38:59 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005781; Wed Aug 16 20:38:00 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA14069 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:38:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199508170338.WAA14069@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:38:28 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1365 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Soren Dayton said... |Muhammad Salman Mughal said: |>I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag |>in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config |>file which states: | This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: | 1. It rewrites a header that the user put there that is | not dangerous. Or as likely, the site's sendmail config file did. And not all sites/mailers add this header. | 2. It makes it harder to make individual responses to | the author of the letter. With all the lists I'm on, group responses are *much* more common than individual responses. You make the common response the easier response. In general, I prefer the reply to go to the list, so I like the idea. I'm on 7 or 8 lists, and all but a couple include a Reply-to: list_address header. | 3. By my reading of RFC 822 it is not acceptable | behaviour. This RFC seems to indicate that this is | defined by the originator, not by the mailing list | software Too bad. The RFC will just have to get its own list. 8^) Seriously, this is a logical thing for some lists, and it's up to the list admin and/or the list members to decide what they want. If the originator has a problem with this, they can discuss it with the list administrator and/or the list. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 22:30:37 1995 Received: (majordom@lo