From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 1 22:50:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA06780 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:35:26 -0700 Received: from yfn.ysu.edu (YFN.YSU.EDU [192.55.234.27]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA06773 for ; Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:35:22 -0700 Received: (from ae411@localhost) by yfn.ysu.edu id AAA29755 (8.6.12/IDA-1.6); Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:33:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:33:48 -0400 Message-ID: <199510020433.AAA29755@yfn.ysu.edu> From: ae411@yfn.ysu.edu (Richard Baker) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: listservers Reply-To: ae411@yfn.ysu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm looking for help in locating an exsisting machine that will permit another list being established. We have a non-profit radio hobby club that had used majordomo@ phoque at uqam but we out grew it and phoque can't handle it anymore. Can you point me to anyone who may help? Thanks -- Rick "RD" Baker (ae411@yfn.ysu.edu) Recorded live and direct from downtown Austintown, Ohio, the USA "Happiness is a Band Opening" -Wile E. Coyote, famous inventor From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 00:52:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA10082 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:51:32 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA10075 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:51:28 -0700 Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA28235; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:50 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id JAA23140; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:49 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:49:49 +0200 Message-Id: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: Wes Morgan Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: <199509261402.KAA08327@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> References: <199509261402.KAA08327@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan writes: > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > would seem) dropped a spam in my mailbox this morning. I've appended > the headers; those of you with preemptive rejection criteria might > want to load this address up, just in case he decides to hit mailing > lists. I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, both are private and not advertised anywhere. Mari From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 01:00:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA10132 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:54:02 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA10125 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 00:53:56 -0700 Received: from delta.hut.fi (delta.hut.fi [130.233.224.53]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id JAA28393; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:23 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by delta.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id JAA23989; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:22 +0200 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:52:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199510020752.JAA23989@delta.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: jeff@k9.com (Jeff Beadles) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Beadles writes: > There are ~2000 anonymous addresses, of which only around 20 were hit. > It looks like he/she is hitting address that have been posted somewhere > on usenet in the last month or three. Interesting. Then it should be limited to alt.privacy.anon-server, alt.anonymous and alt.anonymous.messages. Those are the only 3 world-wide newsgroups I have had time to post to during last months. Mari From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 05:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA16736 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 04:56:34 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA16729 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 04:56:31 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA15176 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:54:40 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:54:40 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510021154.HAA15176@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What I really can't figure out is, why would anyone think any >of us *care* about this tripe? I class this sort of spam as a >form of graffitti: an attempt by a weak personality attempting >to assert its influence on what it sees as a more powerful >world. As I said before, I just don't have time for it. I usually notify the postmasters at the (apparent) source site, simply as a matter of professional courtesy; the vast majority of such incidents trace back to a security problem, and the ad- mins in questions are almost always grateful for the tipoff. Heck, *I'd* sure want to know if someone was using my boxes for such things. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 14:01:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05521 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:53:26 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05487 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:53:12 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA25684 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:43:32 -0500 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA08413 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:41:26 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199510022041.PAA08413@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Weird mail followup To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:41:25 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1510 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've kind of figured out what has happened with the strange mail. Best that I can put together from what happened and from talking to people is someone put up a web site and catalogued a list of contacts for the links he made to other sides from his web page. It appears that he set this list up as a mailing list. And a poorly configured mailing list at that -- it sends bounce messages back to the message originator and not back to the list-owner. So here I am and who knows how many other people on this unmoderated reflector. The mess started when someone wrote this guy (or he wrote her, I'm not too sure the of order), but in his message to her, he Cc:'ed the reflector address. She wrote him back and she apparently has one of those mailers that automatically Cc:'s everyone listed in the header which of course, emailed the exchange through this mailing list. That started the ball rolling with the usual "Why did you send me this mail? Who are you? What's going on?" confused responses as other people responded as also included all the cc:'ed addresses (which made it harder to pin down which address was the reflector). Fortunately, this didn't mushroom. However, sending to the reflector caused one to get spammed with over 20 user unknown bounces and various replies from auto-responders. Email to both the postmaster at the site and the web maintainer has not been responded to. I don't know if the reflector is still active, I'm kind of reluctant to send anything to it to test it. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 14:56:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08871 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:50:44 -0700 Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA08863 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:50:41 -0700 Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA00325; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:55:49 -0700 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199510022055.NAA00325@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing To: zarr@snakemail.hut.fi (Mari Sepp{) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> from "Mari Sepp{" at Oct 2, 95 09:49:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 670 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Wes Morgan writes: > > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > > I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they > choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, > both are private and not advertised anywhere. > > Mari Also one of the newest contractors at my site, one who has had no access to Usenet NetNews through here -- and who has not joined any mailing lists from this account (he has a private Netcom account for all that stuff) -- reported that he also got a copy of this. So the culprit is getting his/her mailing list through some other means ("sniffing" maybe?). From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 18:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA22678 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:24:23 -0700 Received: from philly.qualcomm.com (philly.qualcomm.com [129.46.50.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA22671 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:24:20 -0700 Received: from philly.qualcomm.com (localhost.qualcomm.com [127.0.0.1]) by philly.qualcomm.com (8.6.12/QC-SOLARIS-2.3.1) with SMTP id SAA19884 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:22:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 18:22:51 -0700 From: Keith Pilotti Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi everyone. I'm having a debate with one of the admins at our site who wants to allow unbracketed IP addresses on our lists, and to modify sendmail's config to process them. This type of address is frequently produced by newbies and other clueless types with misconfigured mailers, and the other admin does not want to "exclude" these people from participating in our lists. I see this as prologing the agony of newbieness on the Internet, he sees it as "being friendly". (I'll let you guess which one of us has 15+ years on the net and which one has 5. :) I want to reject these addresses and insist that (potential) subscribers get themselves configured properly -- no mercy! I'm interested in your opinion about this. Thanks... +Keith -- Keith F. Pilotti KFP@QUALCOMM.Com QUALCOMM Incorporated UNIX Computer Support Team 6455 Lusk Boulevard +1 619 658-4555 (Voice) San Diego, CA 92121-2779 +1 619 658-2115 (FAX) From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 19:23:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA23839 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:17:43 -0700 Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA23832 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:17:37 -0700 Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA22423; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:14:36 -0400 Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:14:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Potential spam mailing In-Reply-To: <199510020749.JAA23140@delta.hut.fi> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got one of those National Alliance messages sent to one of my old e-mail address (that has not been used in about 2 years!). Those people are nuts! On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Mari Sepp{ wrote: > Wes Morgan writes: > > Someone connected to the National Alliance (a white-power group, it > > would seem) dropped a spam in my mailbox this morning. I've appended > > the headers; those of you with preemptive rejection criteria might > > want to load this address up, just in case he decides to hit mailing > > lists. > > I got one of those as well. What I would like to know is how did they > choose who would get the mailing? I am a list manager only to 2 lists, > both are private and not advertised anywhere. > > Mari > From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 20:00:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA24930 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:52:34 -0700 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA24920 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:52:31 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA03495 ; for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:50:59 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199510030250.WAA03495@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? To: kfp@qualcomm.com (Keith Pilotti) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> from "Keith Pilotti" at Oct 2, 95 06:22:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1040 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Basically, I vote with your UserFriendly SysOp. Very often malformed messages are the responsibility of some bridge far from the individual's span of control. Warning messages that the individual is out of compliance, and that you are having to work around this, yes. Simply slam the door, no. The nominal Internet -- the TCP/IP internet -- recently went through a wave of downward revision of estimates of how many people it reaches (at least in the popular image). The email internet -- including all who have some sort of mail bridge on/off internet email -- is significantly larger. It is often the only ray of hope someone buried in a bureaucracy (Federal or Exxon) has that global interconnect with _individuals_ like him/herself is possible. Because the individual, who is your customer, may have only very weak influence over the factors you are talking about, you should be as permissive as you can without creating massive overhead at your operation. Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 2 21:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA26849 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:53:18 -0700 Received: from hamjudo.com (hamjudo.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA26835 for ; Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:53:13 -0700 Received: by hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0szyXA-000JAnC; Tue, 3 Oct 95 00:00 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Haas To: Al Gilman cc: Keith Pilotti , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? In-Reply-To: <199510030250.WAA03495@access2.digex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Al Gilman wrote: > ... Very often > malformed messages are the responsibility of some bridge far from > the individual's span of control. > ... Because the individual, who is your > customer, may have only very weak influence over the factors you > are talking about, you should be as permissive as you can without > creating massive overhead at your operation. This depends on the nature of your list. On one of my lists, I insist that posters use fully functional reply addresses with a single @, no % or ! and a valid domain address to the right of the @. It is important on that list for any subscriber to easily send email to any poster. Before that rule I had people posting replies like: I tried to send this message to just Dweeb User , but it didn't work, so I'm sending it to the whole list... The list is so important to some individuals that they will get a functional email account somewhere else, if their corporate email is broken. I've even known people who have their companies pay for the functional email account. More usefully, some companies have gotten their broken email software fixed so the employees could use outside mailing lists. You have influence over corporate email systems if employees are told to subscribe to your list by their supervisors. You have much less influence if employees will get in trouble if they're caught reading your list on company time. Also, consider if the list will suffer if you lock out some potential subscribers because they have archaic email systems. -- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 07:23:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA12139 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:09:50 -0700 Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi (castor.cc.utu.fi [130.232.1.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA12132 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:09:43 -0700 Received: by utu.fi id <167152-1>; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:08:00 +0200 Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) In-Reply-To: <199510030223.TAA23860@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Oct 2, 95 07:23:08 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Length: 4404 Message-Id: <95Oct3.160800eet.167152-1+226@utu.fi> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk People appear to be learning again, that the problem on lists is not that much of what MLM we run, rather what kind of mailer we have.. > From: Keith Moore > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:20:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: Best List Software for SCO > > > Majordomo has severe scalability problems. I don't know how many > > lists you intend to run, but Majordomo, in combination with > > bulk_mailer, periodically sends our dedicated email server into the > > stratosphere with a load average of 40 to 50 when four or five > > messages to large lists (400+ users) arrive within moments of each > > other. > > I'm not surprised. Even without the Perl-related problems, the > current version of bulk_mailer will cause the creation of several > processes (instead of just one) each time a new message arrives. It > does get the message out faster, but you pay a price for this in > having all of those processes fired up. Ack, and the process startup is often heavier, than having a set of processes waiting to be activated. (See how NCSA HTTPD works - a bunch of processes with one master who does accept() connections, and then sends the newly arrived file-descriptor to a free worker.) > A big part of the problem is that sendmail isn't really designed for > high-volume mail. So for instance, it doesn't manage a limited number > of 'worker bee' processes to send outgoing mail; it fires up a > separate process every time you want to send a message out, and leaves > it to a single queue process (worker bee) to periodically "clean up" > any messages that weren't delivered on the first pass. For a > high-volume site, that's too many processes on the front-end, and not > enough processes on the back end. Right. I have been hacking at an UNIX-mailer called ZMailer, which in its new form runs transport channels (back end) in process pools, which pools can contain 1..N programs. The front-end in it is a set of router processes (1 to N) that can be run in parallel, and that are started at the systen startup. For the interested people, see: ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/unix/mail/zmailer/ (Look for zmailer-2.99.18 or latter) ... > ------------------------------ > > From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 95 16:09:20 EDT > Subject: Re: Best List Software for SCO > > >bulk_mailer is really just a band-aid for sendmail, and it can only > >help so much. If you want to do lots of volume on a single machine, > >you might want to consider a different MTA. Check out Innosoft's > >PMDF, for example. > > > >Keith Moore > > Any comments on MMDF in this vein? It is one of the programs that PMDF used as a model, and not a bad one at that. ZMailer used it as a model too. > We run it here and I'm quite pleased with how it works. Of course, my lists > aren't really high volume in the sense that folks are talking here, with > about 30k/day going out - 350 users getting it as individual msgs and 1500 > getting a daily digest. > > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html > > ------------------------------ > > From: Eric Thomas > Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 23:14:13 +0100 > Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] > > For what it's worth, here are some figures for LSMTP. The data is from > yesterday's run (24h). > > Machine #1: 275MHz Alpha, 128M > > Total: 1,474,627 deliveries > > Average delivery time: 1557 sec (25:57) > 50% delivered in less than: 50 sec (00:50) > 90% delivered in less than: 230 sec (03:50) > 95% delivered in less than: 320 sec (05:20) > 96% delivered in less than: 354 sec (05:54) > 97% delivered in less than: 401 sec (06:41) > 98% delivered in less than: 462 sec (07:42) > 99% delivered in less than: 587 sec (09:47) Eric is showing impressive figures, but what do they mean ? That is, assuming a list where there are multiple recipients at some host, are all those recipients at that host counted as one, or as individuals ? There is a big difference in handling 1000k messages with 1 recipient each, and 10k messages with 100 recipients each.. ... > Eric /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 09:52:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15882 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:34:03 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA15875 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:33:59 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id MAA24640; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:32:12 -0400 Message-Id: <199510031632.MAA24640@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Keith Pilotti cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Allowing unbracketed IP addresses? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 02 Oct 1995 18:22:51 PDT." <199510030122.SAA19884@philly.qualcomm.com> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 12:32:06 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having a debate with one of the admins at our site who wants to allow > unbracketed IP addresses on our lists, and to modify sendmail's config to > process them. > > This type of address is frequently produced by newbies and other clueless > types with misconfigured mailers, and the other admin does not want to > "exclude" these people from participating in our lists. > > I see this as prologing the agony of newbieness on the Internet, he sees > it as "being friendly". (I'll let you guess which one of us has 15+ years > on the net and which one has 5. :) I'm not sure what you mean by "unbracketed IP addresses on our lists". If you mean that you will accept subscriptions for people with malformed email addreesses, I recommend against doing so. I used to do this, but I found that such addresses almost invariably started bouncing messages fairly soon after subscribing (sometimes even beforehand). After I put a syntax checker in my mlm that refused a subscription from any invalid address, a major source of my bounce messages went away. However, the routine that bounces invalid does attempt to guess the person's correct address, and returns that guess as a suggestion. (for example, if the address was user@uk.xxx.yyy.zzz, and domain uk.xxx.yyy.zzz was found to be invalid, it guesses user@zzz.yyy.xxx.uk; if the address was user@xxx and the message came from domain xxx.yyy.zzz, the guessing routine will suggest user@xxx.yyy.zzz) This seems to work - there are many instances in my logs where an initial attempt at subscribing fails because of a bogus address but a subsequent attempt succeeds. IMHO, we're not doing users a favor by accepting invalid input and trying to interpret it, because (a) this just encourages users to generate invalid input (after all, it "works" ... so they'll tell their friends) and (b) because well-formed input has a well-defined interpretation but invalid input does not -- and sometimes we'll guess wrong. Finally, if you do want to accept user@ip-address anyway, you don't want to do it in sendmail. Instead, teach your list manager to rewrite user@ip-address to user@[ip-address]. I could go into great detail about why modifying sendmail in this way is a bad idea, but I'll just say that it's fairly difficult to get sendmail rewrite rules to tell the difference between an ip address and a domain, and any changes you make to a sendmail config file have the tendency to have unwanted side effects. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 12:53:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA20804 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:30:54 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA20797 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:30:50 -0700 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02931; Tue, 3 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: "price" of receiving mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I often hear of the un-scalability of sendmail and especially the combination of sendmail and majordomo. What I wonder is what is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives (sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, 90% of which are for one particularly rabid sports fan. Naturally, the messages are not spaced randomly throughout the day, but tend to cluster at the beginning of the work day and after lunch. I *might* be able to persuade the sports fan to go for the digest edition of the mailing list, but I would want to know if the receipt of his mail is *really* making the impact that I think it is. I have to persuade, rather than demand, because the sports fan is my boss. Help! Cathy Eades e-mail: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu PET Center, Div. Rad. Sciences phone: (910)716-5628 Bowman Gray School of Medicine FAX: (910)716-5639 Winston-Salem, NC 27157 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 14:52:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24726 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:37:50 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA24707 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:37:46 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA01981; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:37:01 -0400 Message-Id: <9510032137.AA01981@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: "price" of receiving mail In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 95 15:30:37 EDT." <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 03 Oct 95 17:36:57 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What I wonder is what >is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives >(sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, [...] 200 per *day*? What is your modest departmental computer? It would have to be pretty lousy for 200 per day to cause it to sweat. I'm guessing your machine has other problems you haven't mentioned and you're on a witch-hunt. I'd say you're on the wrong track. Keep hunting. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 15:23:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA26632 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:20:39 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA26625 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:20:35 -0700 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03691; Tue, 3 Oct 95 18:20:22 EDT Date: Tue, 3 Oct 95 18:20:22 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9510032220.AA03691@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "price" of receiving Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you, everyone who replied to my query about the load of receiving about 200 messages per day. Since I get the digest form of the list, I've only seem replies sent to me personally, but the response is over-whelmingly against the idea that receiving this amount of mail is a problem. I have a cold, one of my lists is broken, and my main machine has turned into a snail, but it made me feel a lot better getting some input ( a reality check, some might call it!) Cathy Eades e-mail: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu PET Center, Div. Rad. Sciences phone: (910)716-5628 Bowman Gray School of Medicine FAX: (910)716-5639 Winston-Salem, NC 27157 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 15:29:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA25553 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:59:58 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA25546 for ; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:59:55 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id RAA25995; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:58:20 -0400 Message-Id: <199510032158.RAA25995@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: "price" of receiving mail In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 03 Oct 1995 15:30:37 EDT." <9510031930.AA02931@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 17:58:12 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I often hear of the un-scalability of sendmail and especially > the combination of sendmail and majordomo. What I wonder is what > is the impact on a modest departmental computer that receives > (sometimes) up to 200 messages per day, 90% of which are for one > particularly rabid sports fan. Our mail server is a modest machine (a sparcstation 2). It supports about 1200 users, forty or so mailing lists (some with hundreds of members), and it runs a NNTP server as well as handling local mailbox access via NFS and POP. Last time I checked, it was handling over 17,000 messages per day. It gets a little bit slow from time to time, but it continues to do its job. So I'm inclined to think that 200 messages per day isn't very much. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 3 16:52:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA00270 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:34:04 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA00263; Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:34:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199510032334.QAA00263@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4312; Wed, 04 Oct 95 00:32:40 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0141; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 00:32:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 00:08:45 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Mail delivery software [was Best List Software for SCO] To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM, Matti Aarnio In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Oct 1995 16:07:56 +0200 (EET) Matti Aarnio said: > Eric is showing impressive figures, but what do they mean ? That > is, assuming a list where there are multiple recipients at some > host, are all those recipients at that host counted as one, or > as individuals ? > > There is a big difference in handling 1000k messages with 1 > recipient each, and 10k messages with 100 recipients each.. This is for a typical LISTSERV workload, and the numbers are recipients. There are requests from users who want to subscribe or leave a list, there are people who order a file, but it is mostly a bunch of mailing list traffic. Some hosts like AOL.COM have a lot of subscribers. However the ratio is not as big as one may think "intuitively". For instance yesterday we had 1,490,315 deliveries and 1,104,013 connections (note that these numbers do not take the connection cache into account, they are generated from the accounting data whose purpose is to bill people if required :-), in other words this would be the number of successful TCP opens if there were no connection cache). Anyway, on the average only 1.35 RCPT TO: can be batched per connection. For smaller workloads I would expect very big variations depending on what kind of mailing lists you run, and where the MLM is located (typical university, PC shop, ISP, etc). Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 03:52:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA11411 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 03:43:12 -0700 Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id DAA11404 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 03:43:07 -0700 Received: (hogreq@localhost) by thinkage (8.6.10(.4)/Thinkage950227) id GAA07906; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:40:52 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:40:52 -0400 From: Ken Dykes - Immoderator Message-Id: <199510041040.GAA07906@Thinkage.On.CA> To: mleger@panix.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share my humble opinion/approach to the matter: >Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 01:35:33 -0500 >From: mleger@panix.com (Mark Leger) >Subject: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector >Cc: harley-owner, harleys-owner > >Dear digest & reflector owner, >Your Internet resource appeared in the first edition of THE INTERNET DIRECTORY >(published by Fawcett, a division of Random House, in October 1993). which i certainly did not approve of. >reverify the information on your digest & reflector for the second edition >of the book. *re*verify? ha! i would be much more kindly disposed to hardcopy publishers if *any* of them had EVER made any attempt at verification. i do NOT want any reference to the harley digest mentioned in the book. and there ARE many errors in the information below. i have for the last couple years been rejecting any subscription requests that show signs of being based on what is published in hardcopy. i explain to them that they are supporting an industry that has proven itself to be, and intends to be, irresponsible towards the Internet and Usenet. promises of improving things in that industry will have to wait a couple edition cycles to demonstrate to me things are better before i will risk the side-effects of involvement. also, implying raw email addresses are "URLs" is certainly stretching the definition. is this what we can expect from the 2nd edition? - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.47N 80.52W] -------------------------------------------------------- >Resource Name: Harleys > *incorrect* >Resource Type: digest & reflector > >To be listed under: Rec+|Motorcycles > *out of date* >Short Description: Discussion about the bikes, politics, lifestyles, and >anything else of interest to Harley-Davidson motorcycle lovers. > >Long Description: > >Language(s): English > *incorrect* >Moderated: No > *incorrect* >Membership by approval only: No > >Other Comments: > >Gated to newsgroup: No > >URLs and addresses associated with this digest & reflector > Contact for information: *incomplete* > harley-request@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) > Print: Yes > > Editor (if different from contact): > No URLs on file > > Owner (if different from contact): *incorrect* > harley-owner@thinkage.on.ca *incorrect* > Print: Yes *incorrect* > harleys-owner@thinkage.on.ca *incorrect* > Print: Yes > > Admin (subcription, unsubscription, etc): *incomplete* > harley-request@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) > Print: Yes > > Posting/submissions address: > No URLs on file > > Archives: *incomplete* > No URLs on file > > FAQ: *incomplete* > No URLs on file From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 05:22:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA12500 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 05:08:15 -0700 Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA12493 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 05:08:12 -0700 Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [198.69.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id IAA08093 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:45 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id IAA17076; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:06:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jason and the tiny curly girl cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector In-Reply-To: <199510041040.GAA07906@Thinkage.On.CA> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > i have for the last couple years been rejecting any subscription requests that > show signs of being based on what is published in hardcopy. i explain to > them that they are supporting an industry that has proven itself to be, > and intends to be, irresponsible towards the Internet and Usenet. > Since yours appears to be an ideological objection based more on paranoia than anything else (do you really believe that anyone that puts press to paper is out to destroy the internet?), there really isn't much that can be said in response. Personally, I'd be more than happy to see any of my lists listed in a book or magazine. No problem at all. Interested people find out about the list and join it. That's kinda the reason I started the things. (Well, not kinda the reason, actually THE reason.) The inaccurate information is annoying, but I get incorrect subscriptions all the time b/c because people don't understand that each list serving software needs its own commands, and the software is incredibly anal. A few weeks ago my wife's list got in a bunch of subscription messages from Australia. Turned out a publication had printed the address and sub info. Out of that group she got a couple of people that are now some of the main contributors to the list. What the hell is wrong with that? All appologies for any content here that seems overly antagonistic. In my own personal experience, there are a couple of magazine publishers on my lists who joined simply out of interest in the list topic, and they have been nothing but helpful, polite, and generally good guys, and very supportive of the net. Jason -------- If your poor fragile ego can't handle anything in this message please, add a :) to the offending sentence if that helps your self-esteem. -------- for subscription info to the following lists: elastica, lisa germano, paula cole, gustav mahler, roxy music, big-east, university of miami: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/jnjlist.html -------- mahler web page: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/mahler echo and the bunnyment web page: http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes/echo.html Jason & Jill Greshes-Philadelphia,PA-jgreshes@netaxs.com-jgreshes@dfw.net http://www.netaxs.com/~jgreshes From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 10:24:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Message-ID: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: mleger@panix.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 4 10:54:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA19504 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:43:24 -0700 Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA19496 for ; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:43:20 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11731; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:02 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil, list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11731@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 07:00:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA23478 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 06:54:42 -0700 Received: from pcnet1.pcnet.com (pcnet1.pcnet.com [204.213.232.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA23471 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 06:54:38 -0700 Received: from [204.213.234.125] (ts4-pt25.pcnet.com) by pcnet1.pcnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28981; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:55:30 EDT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:54:54 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Harris-Braun) Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Cc: mleger@panix.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>Dear digest & reflector owner, >>Your Internet resource appeared in the first edition of THE INTERNET DIRECTORY >>(published by Fawcett, a division of Random House, in October 1993). > >which i certainly did not approve of. > >>reverify the information on your digest & reflector for the second edition >>of the book. > >*re*verify? ha! i would be much more kindly disposed to hardcopy publishers >if *any* of them had EVER made any attempt at verification. > I'd like to publicly apologize to Mr. Dykes for having mistakenly printed an entry on his mailing list in the first edition of _The Internet Directory_ without his permission. I went back through my records and indeed, I could not find a verification letter from him regarding his mailing list. I messed up. I'm sorry. Going into the project, I knew that I would probably make a few mistakes and I'd print a few lists without verifications despite my best efforts. But I'm happy to say that after two years this is the first case I've heard of, though I'm sure there are probably others. So despite having made mistakes, there are megabytes of data on my hard drive that are a clear testament to the many hours I spent sending out permission requests and verification letters for mailing lists. >i do NOT want any reference to the harley digest mentioned in the book. >and there ARE many errors in the information below. Of course there are many errors, things change quickly on the net; that's why we send out verification letters! If there are any other list owners who's mailing lists were in the last edition and who would prefer not to have them listed in the new edition, please, just drop me a note. If there are any list owners who have not received verification letters and _would_ like to be listed, you can also drop me a note and I'll point you to web form for entering your information as soon as it gets up (there is one for WWW resources at http://www.randomhouse.com/id but the one for mailing lists hasn't been completed yet). -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Harris-Braun gbs@panix.com From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 08:53:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26246 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:39:46 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26239 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:39:40 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.12140; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:38:24 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.12140@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:38:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:00:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26637 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:52:01 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26628 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:51:57 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.12257; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:50:40 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.12257@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:50:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:24:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26828 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:56:58 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26821 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:56:53 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12352; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:55:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12352@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:29:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA26942 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:00:11 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26901 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:59:50 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12445; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:58:33 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12445@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:58:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 09:31:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA27088 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:01:59 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA27078 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:01:50 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.093200.0.12537; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:34 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.093200.0.12537@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.092749.0.8936; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12093; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12093@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 10:23:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29584 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:05:03 -0700 Received: from mailer.scri.fsu.edu (mailer.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.110]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA29577 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:04:55 -0700 Received: from dirac.scri.fsu.edu (dirac.scri.fsu.edu [144.174.128.44]) by mailer.scri.fsu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA18118 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:54 -0400 From: Ashley Duke Received: by dirac.scri.fsu.edu (5.67b) id AA173963; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> Subject: PGP and majordomo To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:03:22 -0500 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 137 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Excuse my ignorance, but can anyone tell me if PGP has been incorporated into a new version of Majordomo? If so, has it been released? From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 10:53:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA00784 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:36:03 -0700 Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA00759 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:35:53 -0700 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.114208.0.13174; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:34:37 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.114208.0.13174@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:34:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.093200.0.12559@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 11:00:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.092749.0.8936; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084632.0.12093; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.084632.0.12093@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 09:27:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.084103.0.8892; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.081235.0.12008; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.081235.0.12008@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:41:04 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.080835.0.8852; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:35 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073714.0.11924; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct05.073714.0.11924@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 08:08:36 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from cap.au.af.mil by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct05.073411.0.8823; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by cap.au.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124654.0.11865; Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil (cmilam), list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.124654.0.11865@cap.au.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 07:34:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from spaatz.cap.af.mil by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.124218.0.8741; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:18 -0500 Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #0) by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122856.0.11737; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com (PMDAtroposaol.com) To: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil , list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Cc: mleger@panix.com (mleger) Message-ID: <1995Oct04.122856.0.11737@spaatz.cap.af.mil> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Organization: Civil Air Patrol National Headquarters Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:42:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by spaatz.cap.af.mil (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.7 for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1995Oct04.122643.0.8667; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:55 -0500 Received: from VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J94JUYQ002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for cmilam@cap.au.af.mil; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay3.UU.NET by VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-3 #11864) id <01HW1J81O95S002ENB@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> for MILAMC@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 12:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzkaf11311; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:24:41 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA18738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA18723 for ; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 10:02:16 -0700 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA16245; Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 Oct 1995 13:00:13 -0400 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: Your "Harleys" digest & reflector Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Resent-to: cmilam@cap.au.af.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: mleger@panix.com Resent-message-id: <01HW1J94OEXW002PCG@VAXA.CIS.UWOSH.EDU> Message-id: <951004130012_116042444@mail04.mail.aol.com> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"mleger@panix.com" Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-10-04 07:03:13 EDT, harley-request@Thinkage.On.CA (Ken Dykes - Immoderator) writes: >other list managers must be getting this type of message, so i'll share >my humble opinion/approach to the matter: I've gotten requests for most of my lists. I was initially concerned, but Mark's prompt, polite and professional responses to my mail were reassuring. I've seen other paper publications which had grossly-outdated information (for example, listing my MTU or Brown University *BITNET* addresses), and which never bothered to contact me. I'm pretty pleased with Mark's efforts, and I have no problem with gaining new subscribers. My two centimes. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 11:00:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA02024 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:56:05 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA02003 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:55:56 -0700 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA26666; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:54:10 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA15564; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:54:09 -0400 Message-Id: <199510051754.NAA15564@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: Ashley Duke cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: PGP and majordomo In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:03:22 CDT." <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> References: <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:54:08 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199510051703.AA173963@dirac.scri.fsu.edu>, Ashley Duke writes: >Excuse my ignorance, but can anyone tell me if PGP has been incorporated >into a new version of Majordomo? If so, has it been released? No. This doesn't belong on this list. Please take majordomo discussions to majordomo-users@greatcircle.com (or majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com) --Dave From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 12:00:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA04279 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:46:40 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp9.netcom.com [163.179.3.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA04272 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:46:36 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA13644; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:11:44 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA27620; Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:21:32 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA21101; Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:23:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 10:23:09 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> To: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net Cc: postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9510051630.AB18321@triad.com> (postmaster@triada.triad.com) Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain a list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY MACHINE. I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at the sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. Who knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our public lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." To the postmaster@onramp.net: I realize that you have no direct control over your customers' actions. Please research this and give the customer involved an education on net-etiquette. It might save you some trouble in the future. To the other postmasters affected: Please send your own complaint to the user/postmasters. I've already covered the list-managers list, so you don't need to send more complaints there. This type of intrusion on our privacy must be stopped. To the readers of list-managers: Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your site's privacy, now is the time for action. - -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) >>>>> "Mail" == Mail Delivery Subsystem writes: Mail> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Mail> 550 majordomo@triad.com... User unknown Mail> ----- Unsent message follows ----- Mail> Return-Path: Mail> Received: by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) Mail> id AA18321; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:30:06 -0700 Mail> Received: from mailhost.onramp.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) Mail> id NAA09429; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:04:54 -0700 Mail> Received: from bobmhoon (dal29.onramp.net [199.1.11.129]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26261; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:03:20 -0500 Mail> Message-Id: <199510042003.PAA26261@mailhost.onramp.net> Mail> X-Sender: bobmhoon@onramp.net Mail> X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Mail> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mail> Date: Sat, 03 Jun 1995 14:47:25 -0500 Mail> To: majordomo@marvin.com, majordomo@calypso.com, majordomo@triad.com, Mail> majordomo@sb.com Mail> From: Dunhill Technology Search Mail> Subject: Mail> lists -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMHQUZCGorEbjRoYFAQF/SwP/Ydw7iaBpcBpv0BtAsXDaSo2GaRWzxbE3 /LKMLeUM5LQ12LYNcy9+pjgJLrFIeCp8lPm+jVZbV62UfDUjkYYz+Tbagxux2q1J nlpJGHum5JEa33LXbrXqZXkMphfzKxyRGPVB3N65PcN+SgOP1vAcYIwUWnG1g3Id LJM3GQGZgsc= =QrQB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 12:30:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA05605 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:29:00 -0700 Received: from mongo.pixar.com (mongo.pixar.com [138.72.50.60]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA05598 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:28:55 -0700 Received: by mongo.pixar.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0t0vx0-0008DwC; Thu, 5 Oct 95 12:27 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: mgg@triad.com cc: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net, postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, bruce@Pixar.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:23:09 PDT." <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 12:27:17 -0700 From: Bruce Perens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mark, Your message is so unlike what I'd expect from a list manager that I'm not sure if your message is a forgery or not. I operate a number of lists at Pixar, one of them with 600 subscribers. The "lists" command is a public, documented feature of the list server that is meant to tell users just the information you are objecting to here. To reiterate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what this user was doing. Maybe you're just having a bad day or something? Bruce mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) To: bobmhoon@onramp.net, > postmaster@onramp.net Cc: postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, > postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, > list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User > unknown Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-phone: +1 510 449 > 0606 x6513 X-attribution: mgg > (text/plain) the signature hasn't been checked > To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what > lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain > a list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY > MACHINE. > I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at > the sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. > Who knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our > public lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." > To the postmaster@onramp.net: > I realize that you have no direct control over your customers' > actions. Please research this and give the customer involved an > education on net-etiquette. It might save you some trouble in the > future. > To the other postmasters affected: > Please send your own complaint to the user/postmasters. I've already > covered the list-managers list, so you don't need to send more > complaints there. This type of intrusion on our privacy must be > stopped. > To the readers of list-managers: > Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is > happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your > site's privacy, now is the time for action. > -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/ > Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC > 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a > little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- > Benjamin Franklin (1773) > >>>>> "Mail" == Mail Delivery Subsystem > writes: > Mail> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Mail> 550 > majordomo@triad.com... User unknown > Mail> ----- Unsent message follows ----- Mail> Return-Path: > Mail> Received: by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) > Mail> id AA18321; Thu, 5 Oct 95 09:30:06 -0700 Mail> Received: from > mailhost.onramp.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/ > SMI-4.1) Mail> id NAA09429; Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:04:54 -0700 Mail> > Received: from bobmhoon (dal29.onramp.net [199.1.11.129]) by > mailhost.onramp.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA26261; Wed, 4 Oct > 1995 15:03:20 -0500 Mail> Message-Id: <199510042003.PAA26261@mailhost. > onramp.net> Mail> X-Sender: bobmhoon@onramp.net Mail> X-Mailer: > Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Mail> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mail> Date: Sat, 03 Jun > 1995 14:47:25 -0500 Mail> To: majordomo@marvin.com, > majordomo@calypso.com, majordomo@triad.com, Mail> > majordomo@sb.com Mail> From: Dunhill Technology Search > Mail> Subject: > Mail> lists -- -- Attention Radio Amateurs: For information on "Linux for Hams", -- read the WWW page http://www.hams.com/LinuxForHams, -- or e-mail the word "help" to info@hams.com From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:01:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA06056 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:35:10 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA06044 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:35:07 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id MAA17603; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:33:33 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:33:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: mgg@triad.com cc: bobmhoon@onramp.net, postmaster@onramp.net, postmaster@triad.com, postmaster@marvin.com, postmaster@calypso.com, postmaster@sb.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-Reply-To: <9510051723.AA21101@iceman.triad.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Mark Galbraith wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > > I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what > lists I maintain. Um, then I suggest you turn off the "lists" command if you don't want people to use it. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:02:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA07574 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:54:56 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA07564 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:54:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 15:55:01 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9510051555.aa05373@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >To the user 'bobmhoon@onramp.com': > >I strongly resent the fact that you would even try to find out what >lists I maintain. What makes you think that just because I maintain a >list, it is there for you to use. KEEP YOUR STINKING HANDS OFF MY >MACHINE. > >I suggest that in the future you send a message to the postmaster at the >sites you plan to probe, and *ASK PERMISSION TO USE THE LISTS*. Who >knows, if you'd asked nicely I might have given you access to our public >lists. As it stands right now, "Suck rocks." > >To the readers of list-managers: > >Here's a warning to the rest of you that this type of probe is >happening. If you have the ability to take steps to protect your site's >privacy, now is the time for action. Beg pardon? Just what on earth has caused you to (publically) exhibit such hostility? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 5 13:31:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09706 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:26:08 -0700 Received: from mongo.pixar.com (mongo.pixar.com [138.72.50.60]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA09699 for ; Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:26:05 -0700 Received: by mongo.pixar.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #15) id m0t0wqO-000604C; Thu, 5 Oct 95 13:24 PDT Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, bruce@Pixar.com Subject: Re: Returned mail: User unknown In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 15:55:01 PDT." <9510051555.aa05373@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 13:24:40 -0700 From: Bruce Perens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I haven't heard back from Mark, but I'd guess he's afraid that the "lists" request is the prelude to a spam. Bruce -- -- Attention Radio Amateurs: For information on "Linux for Hams", -- read the WWW page http://www.hams.com/LinuxForHams, -- or e-mail the word "help" to info@hams.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 06:30:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA28735 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:24:14 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp13.netcom.com [163.179.3.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA28728 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:24:11 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id GAA19341; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:18:10 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA01115; Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:03:17 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA23758; Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:04:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 5 Oct 95 23:04:56 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Further clarification Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As a knee-jerk reaction this morning I sent out a mail which was sharply critical of someone probing my site for mailing lists. I have receive several replies to that mail, including an appology from the user who did the probe. The rest of the replies ranged from "Why don't you turn off 'lists'?" to "What he did was valid." There were a few that correctly identified one of my concerns: E-Mail SPAM. I realize that my earlier comments were probably not received in the best light, and, by many of you, were not received in the way they were intended. They were intended as a warning. Most of you (at least the ones that bothered to reply) didn't see it this way, but rather chose to deride me for reporting what I felt was an attempted breach of my privacy and the security of my network. I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good manners and common decency. You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. You may not agree with this, but that's your right. I may not agree with you, but that's my right. "Ain't America great?" -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 19:30:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA19566 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:21:01 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA19558 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:20:57 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzkiz27648; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:20:02 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA01213; Fri, 6 Oct 95 19:15:11 PDT Message-Id: <9510070215.AA01213@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:15:11 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Further clarification content-length: 2425 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mark Galbraith writes: > I realize that my earlier comments were probably not received in the > best light, and, by many of you, were not received in the way they were > intended. They were intended as a warning. Err... I'm not exactly sure what we were being warned against. > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. Hmmm. I'm not sure what makes you think of this a "rude behavior" -- any more than connecting to someone's WWW server or verifying an address with SMTP VRFY. Perhaps a better analogy would be a finger server. Would you consider finger inquries, or more specifically a finger client attempting to see if you ran a finger daemon, "rude behavior" or a security intrusion? What about a Web robot that travels your WWW pages and indexes them? It's difficult to believe that someone would have the rational expectation of being asked before someone connects to an Internet server and makes a request that is part of the normal operation of the server. Heck, I telnet to sites' SMTP ports and do VRFY and EXPN operations quite regularly in an attempt to debug mailing list problems. Many sites turn this capability off, which they have the perfect right to do > As stated in my previous > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even given > the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good manners and > common decency. I think this is a bit much to ask... after all, the software (Majordomo or another program) is supposed to help automate the job for you so you (the list manager) don't have to be bothered by routine requests. (Like "what lists do you host at your site?") > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without asking > permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, and I'm > sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. "Take"?? Information freely supplied by a publicly-accessible server in the normal course of its operation (*not* a loophole or a hack)? It does not surprise me that most people found your response unreasonable. I have managed Internet stes and mailing lists for about 10 years, and would not consider use of my server in this manner slightly odd, much less objectionable. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 6 20:30:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA20194 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:08:27 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA20186 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:08:20 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09320 for ; Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:08:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199510070308.XAA09320@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Further clarification In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 1995 23:04:56 PDT." <9510060604.AA23758@iceman.triad.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 23:08:52 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even > given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good > manners and common decency. > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without > asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, > and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. Errrr, so everyone who wants to send your majordomo a "lists" command needs to ask you first? And how exactly are they suppose to divine your wishes? They didn't take it without your permission. You put up a server that is configured to provide exactly that information, on request, to anyone who asks. It's like setting up a store, and getting upset if people don't knock before entering. Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 7 20:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA09348 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:27:37 -0700 Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA09341 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:27:34 -0700 Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id UAA14769; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:05:15 -0700 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199510080305.UAA14769@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Further clarification To: rsnyder@janet.advsys.com (Bob Snyder) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199510070308.XAA09320@janet.advsys.com> from "Bob Snyder" at Oct 6, 95 11:08:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1559 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > mgg@iceman.triad.com said: > > I stand by my original intent. There may be others out there who are > > concerned about this rude behavior of going after information without > > asking whether or not it's okay to do so. As stated in my previous > > message, if the sender had asked ahead of time, I might have even > > given the information to him directly. It's just a matter of good > > manners and common decency. > > > You just don't take something that doesn't belong to you without > > asking permission first. I don't allow my 5-year-old niece to do it, > > and I'm sure not going to tolerate it from an adult. > > Errrr, so everyone who wants to send your majordomo a "lists" command > needs to > ask you first? And how exactly are they suppose to divine your wishes? > > They didn't take it without your permission. You put up a server that is > configured to provide exactly that information, on request, to anyone > who asks. I have to agree. If you don't want the lists command enabled than disable it. Better yet, replace it with one that simply does an auto-response that explains what you want of people who want to know what lists you carry. I'm only barely starting to use Majordomo but I can't imagine that it would be very difficult to replace or modify the one PERL script. I'd highly recommend that any discussion of that be migrated to the appropriate majordomo list (I'd have to issue a lists command to greatcircle to figure out what that might be -- or clutter this list asking for it). From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 7 23:30:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA10980 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:06:49 -0700 Received: from huey.cadvision.com (huey.cadvision.com [204.50.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA10973; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:06:40 -0700 From: law@cadvision.com Received: from cadb170.cadvision.com by huey.cadvision.com (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.04.tri.dcx) id AA23314; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:00:45 -0600 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 95 23:56:38 mdt Subject: Usenet Gateway & Mailbot Application To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Readership: The following request has been cross posted to majordomo-users and list-managers. The writer would value your thoughts or suggestions on how to accomplish the following: 1) Setup up majordomo as a newsgroup gateway such that all postings to a particular usenet newsgroup are redistributed to a particular mailing list managed by majordomo, 2) Enable members of a particular mailing list to have their postings to that list forwarded to a specific usenet newsgroup, 3) And, establish majordomo as a mailbot such that - for example - all mail to the address info@hostname.com is automatically sent a standard reply. Responses even offered as pointing in the right direction would also be most welcome. Thank you for your consideration. Sincerely, Graham Law From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 00:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA11263 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:53:08 -0700 Received: from SACWMS.MP.USBR.GOV (sacwms.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA11256 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:53:05 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 14; Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:51:43 PDT Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:51:35 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997898.4C9E33A0.14@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Hit List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone compiled a "hit list" of bad mail hosts, i.e., frequently down, overloaded to the point of refusing connections, insufficient MX backup hosts, insufficient DNS hosts, insufficient resources to reasonably handle messages, etc? Maybe if a "Hall of Shame" was compiled and listed, it might induce the managers of those sites to get their acts together??? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 00:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA11253 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:49:05 -0700 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA11246 for ; Sat, 7 Oct 1995 23:49:02 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 3; Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:47:42 PDT Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:47:34 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00997897.BD022210.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Full mailboxes Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know that postmaster of AOL monitors this list; I'm not sure about CIS, though. I run several lists, and frequently get messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's mailbox is full and to try again later. Why? It occurs to me that both providers have gigabytes, maybe terabytes of disk storage. To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there has to be a better way to deal with this. -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 08:02:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA15797 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:46:23 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA15790 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:46:21 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id HAA05639; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:45 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id HAA01377; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:44 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199510081442.HAA01377@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Full mailboxes To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <00997897.BD022210.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Oct 07, 1995 11:47:34 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller wrote: > ...I run several lists, and frequently get > messages bounced back from AOL and CIS stating that the user's > mailbox is full and to try again later. ... > To bounce mail back to the sender is really uncalled for. Surely there > has to be a better way to deal with this. I agree and certainly hope (wish? :-) there's a better way to deal with this than what's done currently. I've have several members who regularly sign on only once every couple weeks only to find themselves on "bounces", again, because their mail has been bouncing back to me as undeliverable due to "mailbox too full" for a week. I've gotten very tired of my admin mailbox filling up (and, ironically those seem to be the fastest, most efficient and regularly delivered of AOL's bounces). Now that I've finally set up my new procmail filtering system, I may just end up sending all those types of messages to /dev/null so that neither I nor my "lazy" list members are inconvenienced. :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 8 23:00:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA02610 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:58:14 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA02603 for ; Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:58:11 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzkqx23290; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:56:50 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA03866; Sun, 8 Oct 95 22:52:21 PDT Message-Id: <9510090552.AA03866@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:52:20 -0700 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: law@cadvision.com Subject: Re: Usenet Gateway & Mailbot Application Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com content-length: 328 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Dear Readership: > > The following request has been cross posted to majordomo-users and > list-managers. Please *do not* post Majordomo-specific questions to list-managers. They should only be posted to the Majordomo lists. Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 02:00:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA05688 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:42:56 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA05681 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 01:42:52 -0700 Received: from lk-hp-11.hut.fi (lk-hp-11.hut.fi [130.233.245.36]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) with ESMTP id KAA12607 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:33 +0200 Received: (zarr@localhost) by lk-hp-11.hut.fi (8.6.12/8.6.7) id KAA28885; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:31 +0200 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:31 +0200 Message-Id: <199510090841.KAA28885@lk-hp-11.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: anon.penet.fi Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am subscribing to this list because I admin couple of lists myself, but actually this is a good forum for my message. I am the other of the two administrators of anon.penet.fi. From time to time there has been abuse on mailing lists from anon.penet.fi users as well as extra hassle because of anon.penet.fi users. Anon.penet.fi address is not meant to be used with mailing lists. We have restricted mailing to listserv@* addresses at our end and try to think of a way to handle other types of lists as well. Anon.penet.fi is such a small machine, that high traffic lists would kill it. Julf pays for every message that passes through the machine from his own pocket and I volunteer my time, so both of us would appreciate if you would do some customization, if easy, at your end and restrict mails from anon.penet.fi. Special lists where subscribers really would appreciate being anonymous (support, etc.) should contact admin@anon.penet.fi for arrangements. abuse ----- Abuse by anon.penet.fi users should be reported immediately with the full post including headers to abuse@anon.penet.fi. I am really sorry for these abuses, it's a shame that a small group can ruin the name for so many others :-( hassle ------ Anon.penet.fi has a double blind rule. If you send mail to anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi address, you will be anonymized as well. Anon.penet.fi header has the From: address as anNUMBER, so subscription to lists is anNUMBER. Any mail to the mailing list will be send to the anon subscriber anonymized. Anyone that writes to the list will get an anonymous account and this will cause *a lot* of confusion. If you change the subscription from anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi to naNUMBER@anon.penet.fi, the mail will get to the recipient unanonymized. This is the standard message send out to mailing lists with the above trouble: I received the note above even though it probably was not intended for me. I work under names daemon@anon.penet.fi and postmaster@anon.penet.fi among others and most likely this is why this note ended up in my mailbox. All messages from listserver/daemon/postmaster/mailer-daemon/etc addresses are not forwarded as those addresses are potential addresses that might compromise anonymity of an anon.penet.fi user. I suppose you wanted to send the message to an@anon.penet.fi. This is not possible from addresses that contain words such as listserver. Anon.penet.fi's server is not meant for regular large volume traffic and, unfortunately, we have had very bad experiences what listservers (especially bitnet-servers) generally do to the headers and addresses. Mailing lists also sometimes create a large volume of traffic. If you are a listserver: - - - - - - - - - - - - Would you mind blocking anNUMBER@anon.penet.fi requests to your server. We have done the blocking at our end, but some anon users seem to have faked their address and sent a message your way as you see from below. All listserv replies will bounce to admin@anon.penet.fi and will never reach the anon user. If you are a mailing list: - - - - - - - - - - - - - If you are a large volume list, I ask you to unsubscribe the anon user from the list as anon.penet.fi's server is not meant for regular large volumetraffic. I suggest all subscriptions for an@anon.penet.fi will be changed to na@anon.penet.fi. Answering directly to an, will result an anon id and message will be send anonymized to the requester. This will also result all the people, who send articles to the list, to have an id, which is often unasked for... Answering to na will forward message to the anon user without anonymization. If you want to send mail to an an@anon.penet.fi and do not want to reveal or get an anonymous ID, you should mail you e-mail to na@anon.penet.fi. For example: if you want to mail a user with the anonymous ID 60 and you want to do it in non-anonymous format (i.e. so that your real name and address appear at the headers of the mail), then send mail to: "na60@anon.penet.fi" and NOT "an60@anon.penet.fi". #Example: # To: na48@anon.penet.fi # Subject: testing #message body: # blah blah If you have any questions, just ask me. Sorry about the extra hassle :-/ Zarr From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 9 05:00:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA10138 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 04:50:28 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA10123 for ; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 04:50:24 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA25993; Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:48:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:48:33 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199510091148.HAA25993@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: postmaster@abacus.net, postmaster@ixc.net Subject: Magazine subscription junk mail Cc: abacus@abacus.net, susie@ixc.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [ This message has been sent to: ] [ postmaster@abacus.net, postmaster@ixc.net, ] [ abacus@abacus.net, susie@ixc.net, and ] [ another mailing list. ] The ipsc-managers mailing list is dedicated to discussion of the Intel iPSC parallel supercomputer line. As you might imagine, junk email is not welcome in our discussions. The user abacus@abacus.net dispatched a 1300-line piece of junk mail to the ipsc-managers list this weekend, selling a subscription service on behalf of susie@ixc.net. I find this blatant disregard of common courtesy appalling. Samantha and Susie - please refrain from doing this sort of unwelcome adverti- sing in the future. Postmasters - please provide Samantha and Susie with some assistance in finding the *proper* places for their sales pitches. I recommend the biz.* hierarchy of Usenet and the various "for sale" mailing lists and newsgroups. Take it somewhere else...please? Regards, Wes Morgan >Hi fellow 'netters, > >My name is Samantha Jerrings and I recently started using a magazine >subscription club in the USA that has a FREE 1 yr. magazine subscription >deal with your first paid order- and I have been very pleased with them. >They have over 1,500 different USA titles that they can ship to any country >on a subscription basis. As for computer magazines from the USA, they >more of a selection than I ever knew even existed. They have magazine