From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 1 08:44:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA17858 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from voicenet.com (mail.voicenet.com [192.204.28.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA17852 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omni.voicenet.com.voicenet.com (westchester02.voicenet.com) by voicenet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17649; Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:24:15 EST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:24:14 EST Message-Id: <9603011624.AA17649@voicenet.com> X-Sender: emily@voicenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: emily@DDRinc.com (Emily R. Myers) Subject: Posting by thread? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a program which can organizae digests by thread rather grouping messages by date? Thanks. Emily Emily R. Myers Decision Design Research, Inc. 610.388.1274 fax 610.388.0555 http://www.DDRinc.com emily@DDRinc.com From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 19:00:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA01452 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA01447 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA01581; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:51:19 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 21:46:16 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: correction... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The mail you sent could not be delivered to: 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 19:45:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA02677 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA02670 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA01423 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:44 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id WAA25977; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:40 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Project Genesis wrote: > The mail you sent could not be delivered to: > 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user > 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user > > So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. > Yup, they're out again. btw, Newt subbed to a couple of my lists today...or rather his district did. It was nice booting him off. Too bad it isn't that easy in real life... Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:00:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA03104 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom16.netcom.com (netcom16.netcom.com [192.100.81.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA03095 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id TAA14459; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:51:47 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:51:46 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: correction... To: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Learn to suffer what you hate wrote: > On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Project Genesis wrote: > > > The mail you sent could not be delivered to: > > 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user > > 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user > > > > So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. > > > Yup, they're out again. > Anyone also being hit with a series of subs from: Vice Pres. / White House First.Lady / xxx@blacklisted..... etc.????? From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:14:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA03319 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA03312 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA10145; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:00:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199603040400.WAA10145@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: correction... To: jgreshes@netaxs.com (Learn to suffer what you hate) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:00:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Learn to suffer what you hate said... | |btw, Newt subbed to a couple of my lists today...or rather his district |did. It was nice booting him off. Too bad it isn't that easy in real |life... Ditto for the Prez, VP & 1st Lady. Someone will probably end up with the SS confiscating their access.... -Miles "Secret Service confiscates Internet. Film at 11." From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:15:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA03729 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA03715 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id XAA04068 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:15 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id XAA26890; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:07 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk just had the following mass sub: letters@blacklisted411.com first.lady@whitehouse.gov pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu georgia6@hr.house.gov vice-president@whitehouse.gov baz@liquidsky.com 76326.126@compuserve.com emanual@2600.com please@netcom.com pather.modern@liquidsky.com 71511.260@compuserve.com president@whitehouse.gov markoff@nyt.com letters@2600.com articles@2600.com zachary@blacklisted411.com alexander@blacklisted411.com hanford@oswego.edu conartistr@aol.com 70277.250@compuserve.com gene@aol.com Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the file with list/password, and away we go? (no access to the subscriber lists on my system) I don't know about anyone else, but this is about the last straw. I'm sick of running mail lists. I don't want to hear about the internet. I wish it would just go away. Running these stupid lists takes seemly more time and certainly more annoyance than my job (and I'm an attorney fer christsakes). I'd like to finish my laundry, listen to a cd, and go to sleep, but instead I have this idiocy to worry about. For a few weeks I closed the lists to outside posting and closed subscriptions, and for my troubles got to come home every night to messages from people sending their 14th post in a row from a different account than they were subbed from, sub requests followed by multiple emails from those people asking every hour on the hour if they had been added to the list yet, etc. etc. etc. Fuck it all. Anyone want some extra lists to run? Venting. jason From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 21:00:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA05233 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA05228 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA05551 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 04:46:49 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304044146.0068c09c@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 23:41:46 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: correction... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This was actually from my second message: >> The mail you sent could not be delivered to: >> 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user >> 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user Message #1 either hasn't _yet_ been delivered, or has vanished in CyberSpace. What I said was that I got a whole list of bogus subs - they're still coming in. They're hitting my lists at my former provider, so the lists are all closed and I'm not really getting hit... Just thought I'd warn everyone. Unfortunately I already deleted the other bogus subs, so I hope my first message eventually comes through with the list. The VP just came in, and in message #1 I mentioned that Newt was part of this (georgia6@hr.house.gov). ddevette@executive.com is also bogus. Watch your lists... and can someone track this guy?? Ken From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 14:24:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA16016 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA16004 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id NAA09441; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:51:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 06:21:06 -0800 To: List Managers List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: opportunist knocked off serve.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI, Gang. -dave ................................ cut here ................................ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:36:11 -0500 From: DRIS Account Manager X-Authentication-Warning: serve.com: bin set sender to accounts@mail.serve.com using -f To: postmaster@LSD.com The account to which you have sent mail, "gwennie@mail.serve.com", has been removed from our server due to irresponsible behavior. We are deeply sorry for any incovenience that this person may have caused you, and ask you to understand that while it is difficult to take preventive measures against such actions, we respond immediately to taking corrective measures. Again, we apologize for the disturbance. This was an automated response, but if you would like to get in touch with us about the matter, please address your comments/questions to: accounts@mail.serve.com -- DataRealm Internet Services, LLC ----------- Your original message is below ---------- Postmaster, Please do something rash and unsporting about this unsolicited spam fom one of your users. Maybe you could start by knocking the weasel around a bit with a book on netiquette. ;) Thanks. ................................ cut here ................................ >From: gwennie@mail.serve.com >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 16:20 EST >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! > > > > FREE AUDIO TAPE - FREE AUDIO TAPE > > 10 REASONS WHY YOU SHOULD REQUEST THIS TAPE > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > > NOVEMBER DECEMBER > MONTHLY EARNINGS > >1 JOHN VALENTY ------------ $17,736 ---------- $22,396 >2 JANET VALENTY ----------- $15,715 ---------- $20,624 >3 TOM ALKAZI --------------- $13,250 ------------$14,875 >4 JERRY JOHNSON ----------- $12,835 ----------- $16,252 >5 RICHARD KUNA -------------- $10,549 ----------- $12,708 >6 LARRY SCHMIDTKE ------- $10,512 ---------- $12,441 >7 BOB SCHMIDTKE ----------- $6,793 ------------ $10,748 >8 DR. DAVID FUNK ------------ $5,525 ------------ $7,943 >9 RANDY CHURCHILL ------- $5,260 ------------- $7,357 >10 DENNIS PRICE ----------------$3,441 ------------ $5,810 > >If you are a bit SKEPTICAL about these incomes, I don't blame you. >Three months ago so was I. Today, I am building a strong alternative >income, with unlimited potential. > >I have been a business owner for the past 25 years. This positive >opportunity creates "CASH FLOW" quickly and is compatible with my >current business. > >I have personally seen INCOMES ranging from $10,000 to $20,000 per month, >created within 120 days. > >I know that sounds ludicrous, as it did to me at first, but I"m glad >that I was "open-minded" enough to listen to the FREE audio tape: > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > >Learn why the average LIFE SPAN of a doctor is only 58 years! > >If you would like to experience a LOW STRESS, Non-confrontational >and $$ Extremely Luctrative $$ income producing opportunity, it's time to >call me. > > REQUEST A FREE COPY OF THIS POWERFUL TAPE! > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > > Please include your complete name, address and phone number! > > CALL: 800-677-1207 Ext. 1826 or (909) 949-6584 > > E-mail: Reply to gwennie@mail.serve.com > > Fax: Your request to (909) 982-5446 > > "OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS" > From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 16:01:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA20939 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA20842 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id PAA06149; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:41:10 -0800 Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net(38.8.14.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006139; Mon Mar 4 15:40:45 1996 Received: from adimail.adiva.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.6.12/SMI-5.4-PSI) id SAA06138; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:39:28 -0500 Received: by adimail.adiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22394; Mon, 4 Mar 96 18:32:33 EST Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:32:31 -0500 (EST) From: George Pearson X-Sender: george@adimail To: Dave Del Torto Cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: opportunist knocked off serve.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave- Did you really need to include the entire spam in your message? Or is this just a covert spam in disguise!? ;-) - george From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 22:45:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05647 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05542 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA09810 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:25 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id AAA28202; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:22 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:19 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Now this is am amazing. The system I'm on, eskimo.com, has always been slow to respond to anything to do with the lists ( they don't charge extra for them, so that's understandable ) automatically unsubbed the latest sub spams from every list on the system. Less than an hour after they showed up in the first place. Impressed. Jason From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:15:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05620 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA01256 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA01188; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:42:14 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304023713.006e434c@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 21:37:13 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Forged subscriptions Cc: Brock Rozen , pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu, sermoner1@aol.com, aollegalstaff@aol.com, chris@delirium.mit.edu, georgia6@hr.house.gov, jcs@enteract.com, mtvyak1@aol.com, jason.peck@sdoct.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A series of subscription requests arrived today with signs of forgery. They came in to our former provider, who is using listproc. listproc requires that the user specify his name, as in: subscribe listname My Name Here All the lists - being at our former provider - are closed with requests bouncing to me, thus I caught the problem. The series all have the userid repeated twice as the given name: pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu - pfluger pfluger sermoner1@aol.com - sermoner1 sermoner1 aollegalstaff@aol.com - aollegalstaff aollegalstaff chris@delirium.mit.edu - chris chris georgia6@hr.house.gov - georgia6 georgia6 jcs@enteract.com - jcs jcs mtvyak1@aol.com - mtvyak1 mtvyak1 jason.peck@sdoct.com - jason.peck jason.peck This began just after 3:30pm this afternoon, and as of this writing (9:38pm Sunday) is still ongoing. I think that all lists at that provider - and perhaps many others - are being hit. jason.peck is merely the latest, but not necessarily the last. While many of these addresses I do not recognize, I assume aollegal is a real address, and georgia6, as I recall, is the Speaker of the House. Neither, I assume, has much interest in my lists. Ken Menken From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:19:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05659 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05532 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA10372; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199603040504.XAA10372@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: correction... To: jgreshes@netaxs.com (Learn to suffer what you hate) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:49 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Learn to suffer what you hate" said... |Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names |through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need |to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the |file with list/password, and away we go? (no access to the subscriber |lists on my system) In vi (my mail editor) I would go to the top of the 21 lines and type: :s.,.+20s/^/approve PASSWORD unsubscribe LIST / and that would be that. A sed script would use the same thing w/o the ":" and range, as in sed -e 's/^/approve PASSWORD unsubscribe LIST /' < in-file > out-file |For a few weeks I closed the lists to outside posting and closed |subscriptions, and for my troubles got to come home every night to |messages from people sending their 14th post in a row from a different |account than they were subbed from, sub requests followed by multiple |emails from those people asking every hour on the hour if they had been |added to the list yet, etc. etc. etc. Unless you get a lot of real subscriptions, just close the subscriptions. Spams are usually pretty obvious. Then, just add the subscribers as they come in. Closing the posting is a pain. I ultimately expect to have to do that, in which case I will set up the list of posters to be basicly the list of subscribers. Majordomo has an option that lets you allow someone from a domain as opposed to a system in a domain. I haven't tried it, but that's what I plan to use. Of course, my list is fairly constant in terms of members. A list with high sub volume could still be a pain, and you would have to let people know that they would have to wait a day or so. Personally, I'd be willing to sign on an action against schmoes like this - from a nuisance complaint (in a case like this) to a class action suit for real money (for a really obnoxious spamming like Castor Oil & Smeagol). I think a few well-publicized things like that would cut down on this garbage a lot. -Miles From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:51:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA10265 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA29563 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.5) id LAA00649; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:39:30 -0500 Received: from rayssd.ssd.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Mon Mar 4 11:38:23 1996 Received: from fluke.ssd.ray.com (fluke.ssd.ray.com [138.125.192.34]) by rayssd.ssd.ray.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA29263; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:30 -0500 Received: (dhb@localhost) by fluke.ssd.ray.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA25684; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:28 -0500 (EST) From: "David H. Brierley" To: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Learn to suffer what you hate wrote: > Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names > through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need > to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the The following is a litlle shell script that takes two arguments, the name of the list and the username. It then looks up the password and the majordomo email address in a file called .majordomo in your home directory. Each line of the .majordomo file consists of three entries; the list name, the password, and the majordomo email address. It's not a really complicated script but it certainly is a handy little thing. ----- cut here for "unsub" ----- #!/bin/sh PW=`awk '$1 == list {print $2}' list="$1" $HOME/.majordomo` MD=`awk '$1 == list {print $3}' list="$1" $HOME/.majordomo` if test "${PW}" = "" -o "${MD}" = "" then echo "Could not get password and/or email address for list $1" exit 1 fi echo "approve ${PW} unsubscribe ${1} ${2}" | mail ${MD} exit 0 -- David H. Brierley Raytheon Electronic Systems - Portsmouth RI Facility Work: dhb@ssd.ray.com Home: dave@galaxia.network23.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 07:02:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA05537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA05520 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA21891 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:56:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199603051456.IAA21891@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:56:24 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't have the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. I have a several different auto {list} server packages like majordomo and netlib. None work or work well with this format message. I'd like to have a canned reply that I can just bounce back to these poor souls using this stuff. In a few cases, the lusers got rather upset in that they couldn't get access to the services provided even though they did get a reply stating the EXACT format their input message needed to be. They didn't know how to create such a message. There seems to be a growing number of these people out there. Thanks --Gene ------- Forwarded Message Received: from news2.swip.net (news2.swip.net [192.71.220.18]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA21242 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:24:14 -0600 Received: from gatekeeper.vv.se (gatekeeper.vv.se [193.181.57.1]) by news2.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07480 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:23:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate.vv.se by gatekeeper.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jan95-0239PM) id AA13263; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:36:53 +0100 Received: from obro-exchange.ore.vv.se by mailgate.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Jan95-0504PM) id AA02724; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:25:28 +0100 Received: by obro-exchange.ore.vv.se with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BB0AA7.505785F0@obro-exchange.ore.vv.se>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:40 +0100 Message-Id: From: Axelsson Anders ASA To: "'Majordomo@mcs.anl.gov'" Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lists end - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IikOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQmAAQAhAAAAQjlBNjZCNTE5MDcyQ0YxMTg4NzIwMDAwQzA3MEJC QTQA+QYBIIADAA4AAADMBwMABQAPABQAJwACACcBAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAUADwAUACcAAgAnAQEN gAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBIABAAEAAAAAAAABA5AGAIABAAASAAAAQAA5AEAWH+6eCrsBHgBwAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7Cp9iRVFrprpykBHPiHIAAMBwu6QAAAMABhA//IpYAwAHEAgA AAAeAAgQAQAAAAkAAABMSVNUU0VORAAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACJAAAAhQAA AAkBAABMWkZ1sUvGXf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQDxhTFfQqAiwjPCdk7Fz8yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwNU8UUAsKFFEL 8SBsBAB0tnMKhQnwZAqFFmEAHYAAAAADADYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAEAA BzAA1Sf8ngq7AUAACDAQjx3ungq7AQMADTT9PwAAAgEUNAEAAAAQAAAAVJShwCl/EBulhwgAKyol Fx4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAB5Sg== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0-- ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 08:31:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA07782 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.191]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07777 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.west.ora.com by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA00683; Tue, 5 Mar 96 07:36:11 PST From: Jerry Peek X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: Gene Rackow Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: <199603051456.IAA21891@antares.mcs.anl.gov> In-Reply-To: Message from (Gene Rackow ) of "Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:56:24 -0600." Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:36:05 -0800 Message-Id: <682.826040165@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell > people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it > does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't used Exchange either) but it seems OK. --Jerry, jerry@ora.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) Newsgroups: comp.mail.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.apps.winsock.mail Subject: Re: What is WINMAIL.DAT? Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:32:05 GMT Organization: Angry Greycat Designs Message-ID: <4egth5$1pc_001@news.halcyon.com> WINMAIL.DAT, and how to make it disappear: see http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf ... Q: When I send mail to an Internet mailing list, its members complain that my messages contain big binary attachments. What's happening? How can I get rid of these? A: Those attachments contain Exchange's rich text information, encoding attributes of the message such as boldface, underlining, fonts, and colors. Exchange/Internet Mail puts these attributes into an attachment so that they can appear to other Exchange users on the Internet. The problem arises when people not using Exchange receive these attachments: instead of seeing a formatted message, they see a big chunk of UUENCODE data named WINMAIL.DAT if you're using UUENCODE, or a section application/ms-tnef if you're using MIME, each full of encoded data. For communicating with users of other clients, Exchange contains an option to suppress sending rich text information when mailing them. If you double-click on an underlined recipient (the underline means that Exchange has recognized the name, and associated an address with it) in the To or Cc fields on the message form, and you're using the Internet Mail provider, you'll see a check box labeled Send to this recipient in Microsoft rich text format. Always clear this check box if you suspect that your recipient isn't using Exchange. If this flag is clear for every recipient on a message, Exchange/Internet Mail will strip the rich text information when it sends it, eliminating the mysterious binary attachments. Note however that if the message has multiple recipients, and any one of them has the flag set, Exchange will include the rich text attachments in the message, which all recipients will receive, regardless of their particular flag setting. Whether this flag initially appears set or not depends on the origin of that underlined name. If you got the name by typing a literal name@domain.xxx SMTP address, the check box will be clear by default. If you got it by specifying a SMTP one-off - i.e. by typing [SMTP:name@domain.xxx] - it will be set by default. If you got it by typing a name and letting the system pick it from your Personal Address Book, it will have whatever value you have set on the name in your PAB. Finally, here's the tricky part: if you got it by giving the reply command in Exchange, Exchange guesses as to whether this should be set or not, and when replying to Internet mailing lists, it always seems to guess wrong. You can see this by reading a mailing list message in Exchange, giving the reply command, then double-clicking on the recipient you see in the To field of the note form, and there checking the setting of the rich text check box. You can work around this either by replacing the reply address with an entry from your PAB that you know has rich text disabled, or else by always manually clearing the check box as needed. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 10:01:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA13569 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [198.137.231.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA13548 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA10789 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:17:56 -0800 Received: by blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:21 -0800 Message-Id: <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com> From: Ben Goetter To: Gene Rackow , "'Jerry Peek'" Cc: "'List Managers List'" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:20 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have two notes that you may find useful to this end. http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf describes the winmail.dat or application/ms-tnef block. http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#quotedprintable describes the soft cr characters that may appear in the message plaintext. If you use either of these as a boilerplate response, please continue to include the URL of their source, so that readers can track changes that I make in each item. Thanks. Ben ---------- From: Jerry Peek[SMTP:jerry@ora.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 7:36 AM To: Gene Rackow Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Ben Goetter Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell > people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it > does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't used Exchange either) but it seems OK. --Jerry, jerry@ora.com [article removed] From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 15:31:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA03463 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA03458 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:38 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199603052325.1921.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com> (message from Ben Goetter on Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:20 -0800) Subject: CC:Mail attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While we're on the subject of broken mailers... One of the members on a list I run is using some CC:Mail stuff, and he's emitting messages that look like this: === begins === [Normal head, except the old Re[n]: convention in Subject instead of just Re:] [Normal body] [Text in message replied to, with no marking or delimter in between] The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE program. --------------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------- begin 644 RFC822.TXT M4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT@2UF:65L9'-`:69I ;+G5I;RYN;PT*4')E8V5D96YC93H@8G5L:PT* end === ends === If you uudecode it, you get the headers of the message s/he replied to. Discussions with the user indicates that he's able to remove the included text, but not the uuencoded headers. Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 18:12:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA10530 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA10525 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0AD6.EE9916F0@big486.ed-com.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:01:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:01:26 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's just filter it out. Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the 90's! Ed Woodrick EDCOM >---------- >From: Jerry Peek[SMTP:jerry@ora.com] >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 10:36 AM >To: Gene Rackow >Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; goetter@halcyon.com >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: >> Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell >> people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it >> does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. > >I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches >these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with >instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the >plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, >though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't >used Exchange either) but it seems OK. > >--Jerry, jerry@ora.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) >Newsgroups: comp.mail.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.apps.winsock.mail >Subject: Re: What is WINMAIL.DAT? >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:32:05 GMT >Organization: Angry Greycat Designs >Message-ID: <4egth5$1pc_001@news.halcyon.com> > >WINMAIL.DAT, and how to make it disappear: >see http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf > > ... > >Q: When I send mail to an Internet mailing list, its members complain that >my messages contain big binary attachments. What's happening? How can I >get rid of these? > >A: Those attachments contain Exchange's rich text information, encoding >attributes of the message such as boldface, underlining, fonts, and >colors. Exchange/Internet Mail puts these attributes into an >attachment so that they can appear to other Exchange users on the >Internet. The problem arises when people not using Exchange receive >these attachments: instead of seeing a formatted message, they see a >big chunk of UUENCODE data named WINMAIL.DAT if you're using UUENCODE, >or a section application/ms-tnef if you're using MIME, each full of >encoded data. > >For communicating with users of other clients, Exchange contains an >option to suppress sending rich text information when mailing them. If >you double-click on an underlined recipient (the underline means that >Exchange has recognized the name, and associated an address with it) in >the To or Cc fields on the message form, and you're using the Internet >Mail provider, you'll see a check box labeled Send to this recipient in >Microsoft rich text format. Always clear this check box if you suspect >that your recipient isn't using Exchange. If this flag is clear for >every recipient on a message, Exchange/Internet Mail will strip the >rich text information when it sends it, eliminating the mysterious >binary attachments. Note however that if the message has multiple >recipients, and any one of them has the flag set, Exchange will include >the rich text attachments in the message, which all recipients will >receive, regardless of their particular flag setting. > >Whether this flag initially appears set or not depends on the origin of >that underlined name. If you got the name by typing a literal >name@domain.xxx SMTP address, the check box will be clear by default. >If you got it by specifying a SMTP one-off - i.e. by typing >[SMTP:name@domain.xxx] - it will be set by default. If you got it by >typing a name and letting the system pick it from your Personal Address >Book, it will have whatever value you have set on the name in your PAB. >Finally, here's the tricky part: if you got it by giving the reply >command in Exchange, Exchange guesses as to whether this should be set >or not, and when replying to Internet mailing lists, it always seems to >guess wrong. You can see this by reading a mailing list message in >Exchange, giving the reply command, then double-clicking on the >recipient you see in the To field of the note form, and there checking >the setting of the rich text check box. > >You can work around this either by replacing the reply address with an >entry from your PAB that you know has rich text disabled, or else by >always manually clearing the check box as needed. > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430-- From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 20:16:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA19855 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from yuri.microsoft.com (exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.243.48]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA19826 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by yuri.microsoft.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.835.0) id <01BB0ACF.AA555E10@yuri.microsoft.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:09:31 -0800 Message-ID: From: "David Johnson (Exchange)" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" , "'Gene Rackow'" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:09:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.835.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The pre-release versions (Beta 2, RC 1, and RC 2) of the Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector used the multipart/mixed Content-Type for all MIME messages, and also included the prolog shown below. As you know, this caused problems for users trying to send commands to list servers like majordomo. This has been changed in the final version. Any messages that contain only a single text body part will be sent using the text/plain Content-Type. There will be no MIME prolog or encapsulation boundaries in the message, so automated software should be able to parse commands without problems. As soon as the release is available, Microsoft will strongly encourage all users to upgrade from the Beta and RC versions. In the meantime, you can tell users that they can turn-off MIME encoding when composing a message by selecting Send Options from the message properties (Properties command on the File menu), and selecting "uuencode" attachment format. The Internet mail POP3 client in the Windows 95 Plus Pack does not have this problem - it uses the text/plain Content-Type for simple text messages. David C. Johnson Program Manager - Exchange Internet Connectivity >---------- >From: Gene Rackow[SMTP:rackow@mcs.anl.gov] >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 6:56 AM >To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM >Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell >people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it >does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't >have >the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. > >I have a several different auto {list} server packages like majordomo >and >netlib. None work or work well with this format message. I'd like to >have >a canned reply that I can just bounce back to these poor souls using >this >stuff. In a few cases, the lusers got rather upset in that they >couldn't get >access to the services provided even though they did get a reply >stating the >EXACT format their input message needed to be. They didn't know how to >create such a message. There seems to be a growing number of these >people >out there. > >Thanks >--Gene > > >------- Forwarded Message > >Received: from news2.swip.net (news2.swip.net [192.71.220.18]) by >antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP > id IAA21242 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:24:14 >-0600 >Received: from gatekeeper.vv.se (gatekeeper.vv.se [193.181.57.1]) > by news2.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP > id PAA07480 for ; > Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:23:34 +0100 (MET) >Received: from mailgate.vv.se by gatekeeper.vv.se; >(5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jan95-0239PM) > id AA13263; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:36:53 +0100 >Received: from obro-exchange.ore.vv.se by mailgate.vv.se; >(5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Jan95-0504PM) > id AA02724; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:25:28 +0100 >Received: by obro-exchange.ore.vv.se with Microsoft Exchange (IMC >4.1.611) > id <01BB0AA7.505785F0@obro-exchange.ore.vv.se>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 >15:20:40 +0100 >Message-Id: > >From: Axelsson Anders ASA >To: "'Majordomo@mcs.anl.gov'" >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:39 +0100 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version >4.1.611 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- >=_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0" > >This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not >understand >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact >your >mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a >version >that supports MIME. > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >lists >end > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >eJ8+IikOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5N >aWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQmAAQAhAAAAQjlBNjZCNTE5MDcyQ0YxMTg4NzIwMDAwQzA3 >MEJC >QTQA+QYBIIADAA4AAADMBwMABQAPABQAJwACACcBAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAUADwAUACcAAgAn >AQEN >gAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBIABAAEAAAAAAAABA5AGAIABAAASAAAAQAA5AEAWH+6eCrsBHgBwAAEA >AAAB >AAAAAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7Cp9iRVFrprpykBHPiHIAAMBwu6QAAAMABhA//IpYAwAH >EAgA >AAAeAAgQAQAAAAkAAABMSVNUU0VORAAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACJAAAA >hQAA >AAkBAABMWkZ1sUvGXf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBw >ckJx >EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQDxhTFfQqAiwjPCdk7Fz8yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwNU8UUAsK >FFEL >8SBsBAB0tnMKhQnwZAqFFmEAHYAAAAADADYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACMAAAAA >AEAA >BzAA1Sf8ngq7AUAACDAQjx3ungq7AQMADTT9PwAAAgEUNAEAAAAQAAAAVJShwCl/EBulhwgA >Kyol >Fx4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAB5Sg== > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0-- > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 20:45:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA22454 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA22440 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id UAA25355; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:25 -0800 Message-ID: <313D17E6.B05@postmodern.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:43:18 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Ed Woodrick Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick wrote: > What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's > just filter it out. > > Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > > Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the > 90's! Ummm... I think you missed the point. It's not that people object to use of emphasis or other rich text formats _per se_, merely that Microsoft Exchange (and some other PC mailers) encode them in a redundant and non-portable way. For example, the uuencoded WINMAIL.DAT block is (last I looked) not even enclosed in a MIME message-part; it just sits there at the end of a message, and is pretty useless to anyone without the identical mail client unless they want to strip it out, save it by hand to a file, and run a uudecode program on it. What fun. The more recent version seems to put stuff in a MIME message-part of type application/ms-tnef -- which will be correctly recognized as a MIME attachment by MIME-compliant mail readers... and after being recognized is will then be completely useless unless you have a Microsoft-brand mail client. Moving messaging into the '90s means adherence to real platform-independent, application-independent *standards*, not pandering to Microsoft's format-of-the-week. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 22:01:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA26765 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA26746 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA14981; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:00:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199603060600.AAA14981@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:00:08 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 5, 96 09:01:26 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick said... | |What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's |just filter it out. | |Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? | |Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the |90's! By all means, feel free to write the scripts to pull all the mail processors into the 90s. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 04:45:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA20142 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20137 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA03562; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:37:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:37:42 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199603061237.HAA03562@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange Cc: ewoodrick@ed-com.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's >just filter it out. > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the >90's! Please allow me to change your perspective just a bit. Why can/should/must we presume that everyone participating in our forums has the same equipment and software? Do you assume that everyone here has a full-blown Internet connection and PCs running Exchange? Further- more, do you assume that those who do not wish to spend their money ac- cepting all of this encoded RTF material, which is useless to them? Until recent years, Internet utilities and services were predicated on the idea that the host system had no idea about the facilities on the client side of the picture; it might be a Cray, or it might be a Radio Shack TRS-80. Neither did the host have any idea of the route taken in the delivery of the data; it might be a TCP/IP connection, it might be a modem, or it might even be magtape! The logical means of transmitting information among such widely disparate systems, along such widely dis- parate transmission paths, is ASCII. Why is this a poor premise? In this particular case, I would hazard a guess that fewer than 10% of the folks with email access also have Mi- crosoft Exchange (or a mailer capable of handling RTF). Why should we expect the other 90% to burn disk space and processing time to pass this stuff around? Why should we expect users who do not have Exchange to waste time and mailbox space on it? There's an old net maxim (which, sadly, seems to have been forgotten by the majority of net users) which applies here: "Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept." If both sides were to adhere to this maxim, this wouldn't even be a problem, now would it? --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 05:16:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA21520 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA21515 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0B34.31A17390@big486.ed-com.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:09:08 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:09:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wes, I'm not talking about Exchange, I'm talking about MIME and RTF types of attachments. With rich text messages, different replies can be in color, counting >>>> to figure out who sent what isn't needed anymore. I can emphasize portions of text, I can include pictures and graphs in my messages. I don't use VI to create documents anymore. I use fairly sophisticated word processors. My modem speeds have increased from 300 BPS to 128,000 BPS. I'd like to think that I could use some of this for better looking messages. I'm not saying that everyone in the forum should have the same software, but I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. It's been a standard for awhile now, but POP3 developers not worrying about it yet. But they spend days on creating the prettiest GUI for selecting and reading messages. Doesn't this seem a little weird? I don't want to be stuck with the same standard that I used with my Radio Shack Model 1. I put that machine in the closet years ago. But when it comes to Email, messages look exactly the same. If plain ASCII messages are here to stay, then why was there such an effort to develop the MIME specifications????? If we want to talk network etiquette, then why did you mail a copy of your message direct to me? Is it because your mailer can't do a respond sender only? You probably caused me more transfer time than if the message had been MIME!!! Ed Woodrick >---------- >From: Wes Morgan[SMTP:morgan@engr.uky.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 7:37 AM >To: list-managers@greatcircle.com >Cc: Ed Woodrick >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange > > >Please allow me to change your perspective just a bit. > >--Wes > > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30-- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 05:45:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA23381 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA23359 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA11084; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:34:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199603061334.HAA11084@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Ed Woodrick cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Mar 1996 21:01:26 EST." Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 07:34:33 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not saying that we should toss out the new, but at times I'd like to. In many areas our site is dealing with leading, to the point of bleeding, edge tech. The problem that I see is that the new formats are getting used and abused. There is NO reason that I see when someone is sending a straight ascii text message that it needs to be encapsulated in MIME wrappers. Sending someone a 3 line text message has now become a 10 to 200 line message. When I'm on the end of a dial up connection with my laptop, I really don't want to waste time in downloading crap. I'll toss the challenge back your way then, since you seem to be a fan of non-standards or broken software. (At this point there are more systems NOT following the published standards than doing it correctly, or like many things, if you don't like the existing standards, write your own.) I don't have the time to re-write the automated mail handling packages that have been providing various services to understand all the different "standard" mail formats that are now out there. It would be nice to have something that understood all these packages, but there are alot of problems that need to be addressed in using them via automated systems. First, you need to deal with the various formats. Microsoft Exchange, NeXTmail, PGP, and a pile of others. Next, unpacking the data may be a problem. What input format are you doing to accept? Word, WordPerfect, Write, WriteNow, ascii. What they heck, if your embracing the 90's I can send you voice mail. As a person you can probably understand it if we speak the same language, but I have a world wide community. What are you going to do about the people that don't speak english? Also consider the security implications of how this stuff is unpacked. There are plenty of ways to send something though a MIME format that can cause havoc. All things considered, I think the best thing to do is to stick with straight ascii text. The command processors need to recognize the data being sent to them to work properly. What stated this thread is that I was looking for the simplest way to tell people using this MSexchange how to get their messages into the proper format when talking to mail servers. Educate them, not flame them. --Gene Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: > >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's >just filter it out. > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the >90's! > >Ed Woodrick >EDCOM From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 06:31:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA26166 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA26161 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04479 ; for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:20:08 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199603061420.JAA04479@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: CC:Mail attachments To: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:20:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199603052325.1921.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> from "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" at Mar 6, 96 00:25:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) When I faced this situation, what I did was to tell the users not to use the "reply" function but to keep an address-list entry for the posting address, and to screen-cut-and-paste from the received message to the sent message. That seems to be the natural adaptation in Mac and Windows where universal access to cut and paste means that a lot of dedicated functions [like reply with edit] are not supported. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 06:43:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA25975 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA25970 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0B3E.7D5BD9B0@big486.ed-com.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gene, As with any technology advancement, there will be periods of instability. Electronic mail, long considered by many as one of the most important waves of future technology, has seen virtually no development advances in 20 years. Heck it's taken 20 years to get rid of 7 bit mailers! It's about time for a little shake-up. Granted there might be a period of interoperability problems. That's one of the reasons why you see the plain text portions coming from the Exchange products. One for newer mailers, and one for compatibility with text only mailers. MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't necessarily agree with them, but they are there. It will take a generation or two of mailers to get the bugs worked out. Of course a generation of mailers in the past was over 10 years, but I believe that it is decreasing drastically. I expect that it is currently under a year, and soon will be measured in months. But there will certainly be some of you using UNIX mail to read your messages. As you have somewhat alluded to, the number of people using Exchange as a mailer is increasing dramatically, becoming more and more of a problem for those "straight text mail" people out there. I think the situation would be different if Exchange didn't include a plain text message, but it does. You can read it in the format of your wish. Just please don't complain because your mailer can't ignore the MIME sections. If it could, you wouldn't even see the other portions. I certainly can't see the text portion. If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem to want to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a Internet explosion. And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Ed Woodrick >---------- >From: Gene Rackow[SMTP:rackow@mcs.anl.gov] >Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 8:34 AM >To: Ed Woodrick >Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >I'm not saying that we should toss out the new, but at times I'd like to. >In >many areas our site is dealing with leading, to the point of bleeding, edge >tech. The problem that I see is that the new formats are getting used and >abused. There is NO reason that I see when someone is sending a >straight ascii text message that it needs to be encapsulated in MIME >wrappers. Sending someone a 3 line text message has now become a >10 to 200 line message. When I'm on the end of a dial up connection >with my laptop, I really don't want to waste time in downloading crap. > >I'll toss the challenge back your way then, since you seem to be a >fan of non-standards or broken software. (At this point there are more >systems NOT following the published standards than doing it correctly, or >like many things, if you don't like the existing standards, write your >own.) >I don't have the time to re-write the automated mail handling packages that >have been providing various services to understand all the different >"standard" >mail formats that are now out there. It would be nice to have something >that >understood all these packages, but there are alot of problems that need to >be >addressed in using them via automated systems. > >First, you need to deal with the various formats. >Microsoft Exchange, NeXTmail, PGP, and a pile of others. > >Next, unpacking the data may be a problem. What input format are >you doing to accept? Word, WordPerfect, Write, WriteNow, ascii. >What they heck, if your embracing the 90's I can send you voice mail. >As a person you can probably understand it if we speak the same language, >but I have a world wide community. What are you going to do about the >people that don't speak english? > >Also consider the security implications of how this stuff is unpacked. >There are plenty of ways to send something though a MIME format that >can cause havoc. > >All things considered, I think the best thing to do is to stick with >straight ascii text. The command processors need to recognize the data >being sent to them to work properly. What stated this thread is that I >was looking for the simplest way to tell people using this MSexchange >how to get their messages into the proper format when talking to mail >servers. Educate them, not flame them. > >--Gene > > >Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: > > > >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, >let's > >just filter it out. > > > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > > > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the > >90's! > > > >Ed Woodrick > >EDCOM > From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:09:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA29660 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA29655 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:27 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:25 +0100 Message-Id: <199603061533.3852.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Ed Woodrick on Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:44 -0500) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Ed Woodrick] | MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't | necessarily agree with them, but they are there. It will take a | generation or two of mailers to get the bugs worked out. Of course | a generation of mailers in the past was over 10 years, but I | believe that it is decreasing drastically. I expect that it is | currently under a year, and soon will be measured in months. But Microsoft Exhange (currently) isn't using MIME. If it was, it would have labeled the text as text/enriched, not text/plain with an attachment only Microsoft Exchange knows how to handle. In any case, there is no need to bloat one-line messages like "SUBSCRIBE List-Managers" into multi-part MIME-messages with one part. I was glad to see David Johnson report that the latter problem will be fixed in the final version. Keep in mind that MIME is designed to be handled by the MUA, so MIME-support must potentially be added to every small hack handling mail (and larger hacks, like Majordomo, Listproc etc.) And for little or no gain, except that they handle lazy software which MIME-encodes everything, needed or not. | If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem | to want to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a | Internet explosion. Is explosive growth an end in itself? I don't think anyone will dispute that the technical solutions which have emerged from the WWW development leave a lot to be desired. | And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your | brain dead mailer to not include me in any responses. I have done so, but I will note that it is often useful to get a direct reply as well, since the turn-around on many lists is quite high. On digested lists, this is the only way to actually have discussions within the digest. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:16:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA01603 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA01597 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:03:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603061601.JAA06087@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id JAA06087; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:01:22 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 9:01:20 MST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: ; from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 6, 96 8:09 am From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. I think you are making unreasonable demands. MIME is relatively new (the operative word is "relatively"). It's very nice that you (or your mail administrator) has the staff time available to upgrade every host on your network to use MIME-compliant mail readers, but there are many of us out here who are pretty much stuck with what the vendors supply. Until MIME becomes enough of a standard that the vendors start supporting it, there will be many people who have mail readers that are not MIME-compliant. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't use MIME when you can, but it does mean that you have to be aware that not everybody is going to have it. And more to the point, I think that your implicit criticism of those sites who do not have the staff time to install special software on every host is unwarranted. --Greg (postmaster@ucar.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:38:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA01384 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA01360 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA14046; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:57:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199603061557.JAA14046@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Ed Woodrick cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:22:44 EST." Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:57:50 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: >Gene, > >As with any technology advancement, there will be periods of instability. >Electronic mail, long considered by many as one of the most important waves >of future technology, has seen virtually no development advances in 20 >years. Heck it's taken 20 years to get rid of 7 bit mailers! True, but there is an install base created over those same 20 years that need to be dealt with. Things are starting to change, but it takes time. I know of several major providers that have 100k+ users where the mail is line wrapped at 79 characters for them. They need to move to newer things, but when you have a user base that large you don't do it over night to something that is not going to be the standard in 6 months. > >It's about time for a little shake-up. Granted there might be a period of >interoperability problems. That's one of the reasons why you see the plain >text portions coming from the Exchange products. One for newer mailers, and >one for compatibility with text only mailers. > >MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't necessarily agree >with them, but they are there. It will take a generation or two of mailers >to get the bugs worked out. Of course a generation of mailers in the past >was over 10 years, but I believe that it is decreasing drastically. I >expect that it is currently under a year, and soon will be measured in >months. Agreed, but again here is the problem in that as people are attempting to make the newer mailers, they are loosing one of the greatest strengths of the older systems. That being compatibilty. I'm not sure if you saw the number of people that had "No NeXT mail accepted" as part of their sigs. If the mailer format explosion grows as you think it will, then there will also be an explosion of incompatibilties in the mailers, unless version 5 of your mailer is compatible with all the features and bugs of the first 4 versions, plus everybody elses versions as well. > >But there will certainly be some of you using UNIX mail to read your >messages. As you have somewhat alluded to, the number of people using >Exchange as a mailer is increasing dramatically, becoming more and more of a >problem for those "straight text mail" people out there. I think the >situation would be different if Exchange didn't include a plain text >message, but it does. You can read it in the format of your wish. Just >please don't complain because your mailer can't ignore the MIME sections. If >it could, you wouldn't even see the other portions. I certainly can't see >the text portion. I'm not complaining that the mailer that I use to read mail can't deal with the formats of the messages. My complaint is that many people that are forced into using these new mailers because their school or IPS has moved to that mail system can't properly format a message to take to varios email based services. I will complain to individuals when they send me or a list a MIME message that many people on the list can't deal with. > >If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem to want >to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a Internet explosion. The web is another matter entirely. It is a new tech. Granted the install base is growing extremely fast, but the people that have jumped onto the web bandwagon are knowingly doing so at their own risk. Also, now if you read the various security groups, etc. you see that there are many sites concerned about turning off these new features of the web. Nothing like putting up a big firewall only to have someone pop on a java page and break in from inside. > >And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead >mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, >I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it >directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. It appears that your mailer is the one that is brain dead in that you are addressing the mail to me, but you sent it to the list. If you were intending it as a private exchange, why didn't you address it that way? > >Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Agreed. As such, I'm dropping this as it appears that you have completely missed the point that brought this subject up in the first place. That being that MSexchange, MIME, and RTF formatted messages are NOT accepted by current automated mail based servers. People get upset because they can't do what they want, and don't have the base knowledge to set things up on their end properly. If they did, this wouldn't be a problem. --gene From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 11:18:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA09305 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp3.netcom.com [163.179.3.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA09300 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id GAA23966; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:39:06 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tuJdD-000gm5C; Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:51 EST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:51:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 6, 96 08:09:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not Wes, but I can play him on TV. > I'm not talking about Exchange, I'm talking about MIME and RTF types of > attachments. With rich text messages, different replies can be in color, > counting >>>> to figure out who sent what isn't needed anymore. I can > emphasize portions of text, I can include pictures and graphs in my > messages. Fine. The complaints about Microsloth's WINMAIL.DAT are different. MIME is an accepted format; it has gone through the RFC process and a recognized standard exists for it. Elecronic mail readers should follow an upgrade path to at least read MIME format messages. WINMAIL.DAT has *not* followed this procedure to be accepted, to the best of my knowledge. Instead, it appears to me to be the case of some insulated engineers at Microsloth who think they know better, and are attempting to force their world-view on the Internet by brute force. (I know I've written that with some emotive content, I am attempting to give you the impression that I, as a 15 year veteran of the Internet, have been given by this.) > I don't use VI to create documents anymore. I use fairly sophisticated word > processors. My modem speeds have increased from 300 BPS to 128,000 BPS. I'd > like to think that I could use some of this for better looking messages. Fine. Use MIME. But be aware that everybody doesn't speak MIME. If the content of what you write is important, then send it in a method anyone can read. If the presentation is more important than content, then worry about the presentation. > I'm not saying that everyone in the forum should have the same software, but > I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. > It's been a standard for awhile now, but POP3 developers not worrying about > it yet. But they spend days on creating the prettiest GUI for selecting and > reading messages. Doesn't this seem a little weird? > > I don't want to be stuck with the same standard that I used with my Radio > Shack Model 1. I put that machine in the closet years ago. But when it comes > to Email, messages look exactly the same. > > If plain ASCII messages are here to stay, then why was there such an effort > to develop the MIME specifications????? > > If we want to talk network etiquette, then why did you mail a copy of your > message direct to me? Is it because your mailer can't do a respond sender > only? You probably caused me more transfer time than if the message had > been MIME!!! In my case, I've opted to send both to you and to the mailing list, because I think it is relevant. The purpose of any of my mailing lists is communication, not presentation. I have no problem with MIME compliant messages sent to my list, as there are standards that define what a MIME message is (I think it is RFC1512, but I may have the number wrong), so anyone developing a mail user agent can interpret the message. The original complaint, though, was about WINMAIL.DAT and Microsloth Exchange. The addition they provide is not MIME compliant. It is basically a bunch of garbage appended to an email message. It is understood only by other Exchange users. I would have no problem instituting a filter to bounce back mail that includes this. There is a realm in the Internet where presentation can be more important than content, and that is in your Web page. Make it as pretty as you'd like. If, however, you want your message to be read and understood by the maximum number of people, you've got to make it as standards compliant as possible. Then, it is incumbent on the recipients to use a mail user agent that follows the standards. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 14:35:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA19569 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM ([131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA19563 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11179; Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:08 PST Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 6 Mar 96 13:52:08 PST Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12257; Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:07 PST Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:07 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9603062152.AA12257@tardis.tymnet.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: CC:Mail attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I passed this comment on to a cc:Mail knowledgable person and got this reply: -Joe > >From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 5 16:58:46 1996 > From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 > To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: CC:Mail attachments > > While we're on the subject of broken mailers... One of the members on > a list I run is using some CC:Mail stuff, and he's emitting messages > that look like this: > > <<> > > If you uudecode it, you get the headers of the message s/he replied > to. Discussions with the user indicates that he's able to remove the > included text, but not the uuencoded headers. On replying to a message the user needs to deselect the "Retain the original item" / "All" radio button. There is is also a configuration option that controls the default behaviour. Since the cc:Mail message format is not RFC-822, it needs to store the RFC-822 headers of inbound messages. So it makes them a file attachment. Most users ignore them to the point of sending them right back out when they reply or forward a message. > Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to > find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting > access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail > agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) cc:Mail allows you to edit quoted material. It can seperate new material from quoted, but it uses a "Reply Seperator" rather then the internet style of indenting with a character, such as the common '>'. ----- End Included Message ----- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 18:16:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA04435 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA04428 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id RAA29318; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:57:53 -0800 Message-ID: <313E425E.41FE@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 17:56:46 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick wrote: > [...] > And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead > mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, > I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it > directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. > > Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Wearing my list-managers list manager hat here. Ed, you may not be aware that it has long been considered a *courtesy* on mailing lists and on Usenet to mail a separate copy of your message to the person that you are directly replying to, in case their list mail is delayed or they have set up a filter that means they won't see it for a while. This means they get first chops on replying to *your* message -- it's disconcerting to find out that 5 other people have jumped into the fray before you even got your own copy via the list (or worse yet, on a newsgroup). So when Gene sent you a direct copy as well as the one on the list, it was most likely neither oversight or a brain-damaged mailer, but simply continuance of an old tradition of courtesy on lists. Admittedly it made more of a difference in the Old Days where many lists were on UUCP sites where a copy via the list might take quite a bit longer than a direct reply, but there's really no reason to take someone to task for lack of netiquette over it. (Especially lest others take you to task, for example, for including the entire message you are replying to at the bottom of the message, rather than omitting it, summarizing, or quoting the few lines you are replying to.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 02:18:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA29967 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-math-bb.math.ethz.ch [129.132.148.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA29947 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id LAA08459; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:47 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id LAA17752; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:45 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199603071004.LAA17752@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com Subject: Cascading help messages loop Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! I've recently moved the mailing list which I run from MXSERVER@BIBLE.ACU.EDU to Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu. Soon after than, a mail loop between the two computers started. If have now understood how this came about, and I've decided to share this experience, for the warning of the unwary :) a) A user sees information about the CHURCHPLANTERS list on a web page and is interested. That web page allows to create a subscription request and send it to the old server address. (I really hate those WWW-email gateways, they've caused me trouble before.) b) The user gets a message from the old, disabled list which states that the list has moved and that he can subscribe to CHURCHPLANTERS by sending mail to Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu c) Instead of composing a new message, the user uses the "forward" feature of his mailreader to send the following command to Majordomo: subscribe churchplanters The mailreader sends this message with a "From:" header field like this: From: MX mailing list processor (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. Robayo)) Not being experienced in the ways of e-mail, the user suspects nothing. d) Majordomo sees the From: header and interprets the subscription request as follows: subscribe churchplanters MX mailing list processor (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. Robayo)) As the maillog indicates, the envelope-From of this request was . Unfortunately, the address drobayo@posh.internext.com was included in a comment to the subscribed address, and for this reason Majordomo accepted the request. I consider this behavior to be a bug of Majordomo, because RFC 822 specifies: RFC822> Comments should be retained while the message is subject to RFC822> interpretation according to this standard. However, comments RFC822> must NOT be included in other cases, such as during protocol RFC822> exchanges with mail servers. This means (by my interpretation) that Majordomo is REQUIRED by the standard to strip comments from the address before checking whether it matches with the envelope-From. For my list, the subscription mode is set to "open", hence subscription requests are automatically honoured if the subscribed address "matches" the envelope-From. e) A welcome message is mailed out to the new subscriber MXserver@BIBLE.ACU.EDU. This welcome message contains examples of commands which people could send to Majordomo. f) This starts a nasty loop between Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu and MXSERVER@bible.acu.edu in which the two computers frantically scream their help messages at each other. With every iteration of the loop, the number of messages is doubled. (I call such a thing a loop cascade.) Hundreds of error messages were generated and sent to the majordomo admins, but fortunately not to the list subscribers. NEEDLESS TO SAY, I've now taken some measures which should suffice to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. Shalom, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome PGP public key & WWW homepage of CHURCHPLANTERS at http://pobox.com/~nb From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 04:48:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA08298 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA08293 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [207.8.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA07235 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:18 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA19797; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:14 -0500 (EST) From: "It can't go on like this. That's what you think!" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-Reply-To: <313E425E.41FE@postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > So when Gene sent you a direct copy as well as the one on the list, > it was most likely neither oversight or a brain-damaged mailer, but > simply continuance of an old tradition of courtesy on lists. > Admittedly it made more of a difference in the Old Days where many > lists were on UUCP sites where a copy via the list might take quite > a bit longer than a direct reply, but there's really no reason to > take someone to task for lack of netiquette over it. (Especially And there can still be considerable delays. The machine my lists are on has such heavy mail traffic that it take hours for a message to go through the list (list mail is set to bulk priority so it is only processed when there is no personal mail to deliver or send--another reason for a person reply in addition to the list reply--the personal reply is not bulk priority and is sent from the replier's home machine instead of being processed through the list machine). Also, sendmail processes a list post by going down the list of delivery addresses and attempting delivery to each address. When it hits a machine it can't contact, it defers not just that particular user, but everyone in the list after that user. So you may just get a post that other users on the list received hours ago. Ed's obnoxiousness seems to be increasing greatly with each post. Time to go in the back yard and hose yourself down before posting again, big guy. Jason From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 05:01:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA09008 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA09003 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA25728 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:55:32 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:45:43 GMT Reply-To: nigel@diversity.org.uk X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@diversity.org.uk Subject: MS Exchange attachments Message-Id: <9603071245.aa01793@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is what I sent to my lists regarding the exchange problem; I've since written a filter that lets me specify which mime types are allowed on the list, and bounces others (and UUencoded, or BinHex attachments too). Nigel. On 23 Jan, UKM-Nigel Whitfield wrote: > Many people have been inconvenienced recently by users of MS Exchange > sending mail to uk-motss, resulting in junk attachments being created > on the end of messages, both in digests and on the main list. > > Following considerable experimentation, it appears that it is possible > to configure Exchange not to produce this extra information. > > If you do not use MS Exchange to read or compose your messages, the > remainder of this message will not concern you. Apologies for posting > it in its entirety, but I'd rather stop this nonsense now, rather than > relying upon people to request information at their leisure. > > If you do use Exchange, READ IT CAREFULLY. Failure to comply will > result in all your messages being held for manual processing, > potentially delaying them by up to 24 hours. > > The Exchange Problem: > ===================== > > As far as I have been able to tell through experimentation, it is not > possible to change a single configuration option to prevent unwanted > attachments with Exchange. You must change the appropriate option for > each Internet address that you send mail. > > Sending attachments with your mail > ================================== > > It is not possible to turn attachments on and off for a particular > message. As far as I can see, attachments will not appear on your > internet mail unless you have the address of the recipient in your > address book. > > When an address is not in the address book, you can use colour, fonts > and different styles in a message, but MS Exchange will discard it > all before sending the message, without telling you that it is doing > so. > > If an address is in the book, you can tell Exchange whether or not you > want the information about colour, fonts and so on included when you > send mail to that address. > > To configure this, pull down the Tools menu in Exchange and select > Address Book. Find the entry that you want to change and double click > on it. Now, if it's not on top automatically, click on the tab marked > "SMTP - Internet" > > You will see two boxes, labelled "Display Name" and "E-mail address." > Check that these are correct, and then look at the check box below, > which is labelled "Always send messages in Microsoft Exchange rich > text format." > > Unless you know that the people you are writing to also use MS > Exchange, you should make sure that there is NO TICK IN THIS BOX. When > this box is ticked, Exchange adds attachments to your message, giving > details about fonts and colours in a non-standard Microsoft format. > > If in doubt about the mail program that someone else is using, or if > you are posting to a public forum such as a mailing list or a > newsgroup, you should ensure that this option is turned off. > > Sending unnecessary attachments is anti-social and wasteful. How > wasteful? A message 38 letter long, with one word in colour and one in > a different font, acquires an attachment of 1514 letters to describe > it to Exchange users! > > WINMAIL.DAT and application/ms-tnef > =================================== > > These are the two things that appear in mail that you send to other > people from Exchange; WINMAIL.DAT is a UUencoded file, and > application/ms-tnef is a MIME type. Both have the same effect on > people not using Exchange - they see garbage at the end of your > messages, and often have to pay to download it. > > Options for attachments are set in Exchange via the Tools menu; select > Services, then choose Internet Mail and select Properties. The button > near the bottom of the Window labelled Message Format allows you to > choose whether MIME format messages are sent from MS Exchange. > > In general, it is probably better to use MIME than not; if you don't > select MIME, Exchange will use UUencoding, which is an older and less > sophisticated way of handling attachments. > > Exchange and uk-motss > ===================== > > If you have difficulty following these instructions, contact > uk-motss-REQUEST@dircon.co.uk > > People who persist in posting messages with Exchange attachments will > not be allowed to post automatically to uk-motss, and their messages > will be edited if found to contain attachments. > > Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 06:19:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA11099 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA11093 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA15938 ; for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:42:43 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: MS Exchange attachments To: nigel@diversity.org.uk Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:42:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9603071245.aa01793@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> from "Nigel Whitfield" at Mar 7, 96 12:45:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: MS Exchange attachments This is what I sent to my lists regarding the exchange problem; I've since written a filter that lets me specify which mime types are allowed on the list, and bounces others (and UUencoded, or BinHex attachments too). What moved you to proscribe UUencoded attachments? This seems to be broadly interoperable. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 10:16:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA23581 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA23575 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA07451 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:06:20 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: MS Exchange attachments Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:03:47 GMT Message-Id: References: <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net> Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net>, Al Gilman wrote: >What moved you to proscribe UUencoded attachments? This seems to be >broadly interoperable. Largely MS Exchange, since if you have MIME turned off, it'll stuff all it's crap into WINMAIL.DAT and uuencode it on the end of the message. Plus, all the lists that I run are for text based discussion, and many people are using dialup links. I doubt they'll appreciate paying to download it. Ultimately, of course, the choice of what to bounce will vary from list to list, which is why I just rewrote my list manager and put all this in a config file, so I can alter it easily for all the different lists I manage. Nevertheless, I can't think of a good reason to allow any kind of attachment on discussion lists. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 16:10:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA10928 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA14361 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:06:36 -0800 (PST) From: postmaster@LSD.com Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id MAA20041; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:04:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Digital X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:32:19 -0800 To: postmaster@vais.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: "KNOCK-KNOCK" spammer Cc: List Managers List , spam-l@searn.sunet.se, George Pearson , DRIS Account Manager , "Amy Stinson" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ATTN: This person was recently kicked off serve.com (a few days ago), but is now sendmail-spamming/-spoofing people as "rpboul" on AOL. Suggest you *remove* this user ASAP. It might help if we share the user's real name and address with the list-managers list so we can track him/her and warn the next ISP... dave PS: sorry, George, evidence, you know... just hit delete. ;) ................................. cut here ............................... Return-Path: Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mail6.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id AAA22662; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:54:16 -0800 From: rpboul@aol.com Received: from vais.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id AAA22763; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:54:15 -0800 Received: from [206.43.171.118] by vais.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0ttl52-000PcGC; Mon, 4 Mar 96 19:58 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 19:58 EST X-Sender: rpboul@aol.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: (Recipient list suppressed) Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! 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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:36:11 -0500 From: DRIS Account Manager X-Authentication-Warning: serve.com: bin set sender to accounts@mail.serve.com using -f To: postmaster@LSD.com The account to which you have sent mail, "gwennie@mail.serve.com", has been removed from our server due to irresponsible behavior. We are deeply sorry for any incovenience that this person may have caused you, and ask you to understand that while it is difficult to take preventive measures against such actions, we respond immediately to taking corrective measures. Again, we apologize for the disturbance. This was an automated response, but if you would like to get in touch with us about the matter, please address your comments/questions to: accounts@mail.serve.com -- DataRealm Internet Services, LLC [elided] ................................ cut here ................................ >From: gwennie@mail.serve.com >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 16:20 EST >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! > > > > FREE AUDIO TAPE - FREE AUDIO TAPE [elided] From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 22:46:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA28580 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA28570; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:48 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:57 -0800 To: bollow@math.ethz.ch, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Cascading help messages loop Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:04 AM 3/7/96, bollow@math.ethz.ch wrote: >d) Majordomo sees the From: header and interprets the subscription request > as follows: > >subscribe churchplanters MX mailing list processor > (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. >Robayo)) > > As the maillog indicates, the envelope-From of this request was > . Unfortunately, the address > drobayo@posh.internext.com was included in a comment to the subscribed > address, and for this reason Majordomo accepted the request. I consider > this behavior to be a bug of Majordomo, because RFC 822 specifies: > > RFC822> Comments should be retained while the message is subject to > RFC822> interpretation according to this standard. However, comments > RFC822> must NOT be included in other cases, such as during protocol > RFC822> exchanges with mail servers. > > This means (by my interpretation) that Majordomo is REQUIRED by the > standard to strip comments from the address before checking whether > it matches with the envelope-From. For my list, the subscription mode > is set to "open", hence subscription requests are automatically > honoured if the subscribed address "matches" the envelope-From. a) You're complaining to the wrong mailing list. Issues specific to a particular package should be addressed to that package's dedicated mailing list; in this case, that would be majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. b) Majordomo _does_ strip out the comments before comparing addresses. I don't know what the problem is, but that's not it. c) Just what do you expect Majordomo to _do_ to prevent this situation? -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 01:32:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA07517 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 01:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-math-bb.math.ethz.ch [129.132.148.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA07504 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 01:30:37 -0800 (PST) From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id KAA15872; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:58 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id KAA25245; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199603080928.KAA25245@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com In-reply-to: (Brent@GreatCircle.COM) Subject: Re: Cascading help messages loop Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In my "Cascading help messages loop" horror story, there were some ramblings which falsely stated that Majordomo did't fully adhere to RFC822. Brent Chapman commented on them: > a) You're complaining to the wrong mailing list. Issues specific to a > particular package should be addressed to that package's dedicated mailing > list; in this case, that would be majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. I apologize. I will post a full report together with a patch to fix the problem to majordomo-users. Please forgive me, I'm just recovering from a mail loop and a score of other problems (for example, in an attempt to help solve the mail loop problem, the main Systems Manager lost the /etc/aliases file and the only copy he found was nine months old.) BE WARNED, however, list-managers, whatever systems you use, that sometimes you will get a subscription request with a From: header line which contains a different e-mail address than the one of the user who tries to subscribe. In my experience this happened without all malicious intent through the use of the "forward" feature of a mailreader. > b) Majordomo _does_ strip out the comments before comparing addresses. I > don't know what the problem is, but that's not it. You're right. I'll post about the real problem to majordomo-users. > c) Just what do you expect Majordomo to _do_ to prevent this situation? Compare the envelope-from to the new subscriber's address, if the subscribe_policy is "open". God bless, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome PGP public key & WWW homepage of CHURCHPLANTERS at http://pobox.com/~nb From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 07:48:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA26661 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbccab.cc.sunybroome.edu (sbccab.cc.sunybroome.edu [192.203.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA26652 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:27:25 -0800 (PST) From: BCC001561@sunybroome.edu Received: from sunybroome.edu by sunybroome.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01I23CJ9Z5KG8Y54BJ@sunybroome.edu> for LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM; Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:26:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:26:41 -0500 (EST) To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01I23CJA0N9E8Y54BJ@sunybroome.edu> X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 08:47:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA00135 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from albaao.albuquerque.ihs.gov ([161.223.160.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA29997 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [161.223.160.33] by albaao.albuquerque.ihs.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31133; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:21:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4b11.32.19960308161903.00699cb4@161.223.160.1> X-Sender: tas@161.223.160.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4b11 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:19:03 -0700 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: Tim Skeen Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SIGNOFF From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 10 13:34:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA25947 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from quality.qadas.com (quality.qadas.com [204.227.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA25934; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gosburn@localhost) by quality.qadas.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA08853; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: Gayle Osburn DeBruyn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of years ago two lists that I work with joined with several other lists to be carried on an inter-law-school, usenet-based newsgroup network that was only open to students and faculty at the half-dozen or schools involved. Each list was given its own newsgroup, which could be set as read only in relation to the list or a full read/write or two-way message exchange with the list. The newsgroups were also archived so that they were readable by the public via WWW from the law schools Web site. The next step was to have been a jerry rigged set up to permit Web users write as well as read access to the newsgroup/list set up. As I recall there was some discussion of passwording the write access to the groups from the Web. But, regrettably the third year law student, Larry Donahue, who put the network together graduated before the last step--two way Web access--had been implemented. I now see that software, like O'Reilly and Associates' recent Web Board package, is being written specifically to support Web based discussion groups. I checked out the sales materials at their Web site and the package of their's does not appear to handle linking the Web groups with corresponding mailing lists. There are also at least three on-line service packages (they used to be called BBSs) are being distributed with discussion groups that are shared between the dial up or telenetable on-line service (BBS) and an HTML implamentation on a mirror Web site of the discussion groups and every thing else that is available on the on-line service to dial up and telenet users. With all of these developments, I was hoping that the participants here might know of software that will permit a two-way link between the email-based, list and a Web-based counterpart discussion group. This would be a very attractive option for large volume discussion groups and for users whose mail boxes are overwhelmed by the traffic from the various lists that they belong to. Thanks, John DeBruyn -- Send any private replies to jdebruyn@usa.net From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 10 13:45:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA25964 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from quality.qadas.com (quality.qadas.com [204.227.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA25954; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gosburn@localhost) by quality.qadas.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA08853; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: Gayle Osburn DeBruyn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of years ago two lists that I work with joined with several other lists to be carried on an inter-law-school, usenet-based newsgroup network that was only open to students and faculty at the half-dozen or schools involved. Each list was given its own newsgroup, which could be set as read only in relation to the list or a full read/write or two-way message exchange with the list. The newsgroups were also archived so that they were readable by the public via WWW from the law schools Web site. The next step was to have been a jerry rigged set up to permit Web users write as well as read access to the newsgroup/list set up. As I recall there was some discussion of passwording the write access to the groups from the Web. But, regrettably the third year l