From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 04:50:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA15342 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 04:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA15334 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 04:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA06010 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:37:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 07:37:56 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199604011237.HAA06010@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Cyber Promotions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Here is his new info: >> Administrative Contact: >> Wallace, Sanford (SW236) postmaster@PROMO-ENT.COM >> 215-289-4610 > >> Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: >> Wallace, Sanford (SW430) Wallace@CYBER-PROMO.COM >> (800) 650-9110 > >Did anyone else notice how quickly he changed his toll-free phone >number??? I'm curious to know how many give old Sanford a ring. He didn't change the 800 number - I just called it. He probably thinks that deleting it from Internic's database will cut down on his calls... --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 09:50:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA03077 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA03071 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 09:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA24337 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:34:45 -0500 From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604011234.ZM24335@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:34:45 -0500 Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Review update of comp.mail.sendmail FAQ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, I'm not subscribed to your list (yet), but wanted to post this note and ask those of you who might be interested to take a look at the updated version of the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. The changes are massive enough that I'll have to get it re-approved by the news.answers moderators at MIT, but in the meanwhile, I figure I should at least have outside folks look at it and comment on both content and form (hopefully, you'd be helping me more with the content, while the FAQ-Maintainers list would be helping me with the form). If you're interested & willing, the updated version can be found at: If you're interested in looking at what little other stuff I've got in support of the FAQ, see . Thanks! -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 1 11:36:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA10651 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA10643 for ; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V4.3-8 #6770) id <01I3132T87MO002X9L@LACA.OHIO.GOV>; Mon, 01 Apr 1996 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 01 Apr 1996 14:04:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: Perl for Solaris To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I3141RGUK4002X9L@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List managers/masters: Sorry if this is too long or too basic but I wanted to give as many facts as I could. Thanks in advance for all you help. I am in the process of setting up a majordomo listserver. I think that I have everything but perl in place. I have a base copy of perl ( just the executable file ) that I found a while back. I tried to send a message to my majordomo 1.93 server ... echo help | sendmail -v majordomo and I got the error: Can't locate ctime.pl in @INC at /soft/majordomo/bin/majordomo line 53 and I found in one of the majordomo config/help files: If you get complaints about being unable to find "ctime.pl", then either your version of perl is too old, or is not installed properly. I got a copy of Perl 4.x and tried to compile it under Solaris 2.4 with gcc but was unsuccessful. Question 1: Does anyone know where I can get a full binary version of Perl 4.x for Sparc Solaris 2.4? --------------------- Can't locate ctime.pl in @INC at /soft/majordomo/bin/majordomo line 53 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I put all of users on the /soft drive ( makes it easy to backup ) and I have installed my limited copy of Perl as /soft/bin/perl. Question 2: Will I be able to keep it that way? What kind of problems will I run into? ( Yes, I think I got all of the references to the !/usr/local/bin/perl changed to !/soft/bin/perl ) List manager wanna be :-) Paul S. Bentivegna Technology Coordinator Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer or its representatives. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 12:42:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA13399 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA03124 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:26:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id IAA22447; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:35:30 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: from emout08.mx.aol.com(198.81.11.23) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma022442; Tue Apr 2 08:34:25 1996 Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA17163; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:38:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 11:38:48 -0500 Message-ID: <960402113847_183222293@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: meo@schoneal.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-03-31 17:35:36 EST, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) writes: Maybe those of us who have been the recipients of Cyber Promo's little gifts can give deposition... David, are you listening??? I'm definitely here (though buried under mail and an accumulation of printouts). Since I am directly involved in the case, I don't know how much I am permitted to comment on it. --David From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 17:08:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA01069 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA01063 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 16:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA27567; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:57:05 -0500 From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604021957.ZM27565@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:57:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: PMDAtropos@aol.com "Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back" (Apr 2, 11:38am) References: <960402113847_183222293@emout08.mail.aol.com> Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: meo@schoneal.com Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 2, 11:38am, PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 96-03-31 17:35:36 EST, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. > Miller) writes: > > Maybe those of us who have been the recipients of Cyber Promo's > little gifts can give deposition... David, are you listening??? > > I'm definitely here (though buried under mail and an accumulation of > printouts). Since I am directly involved in the case, I don't know how much I > am permitted to comment on it. I'm not aware of what's been said publicly in the press on this subject. Does anyone have an URL or other directions to what's been said so far? -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 18:38:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA10559 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA10545 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 18:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA28019; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:33:17 -0500 From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604022133.ZM28017@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:33:16 -0500 In-Reply-To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) "Re: Email spammer sues AOL" (Mar 29, 12:19pm) References: Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Brent Chapman , john.mclaughlin@citicorp.com (John S. McLaughlin [Citibank NAGF]) Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 29, 12:19pm, Brent Chapman wrote: > Knowing the folks at UUNET and how carefully and successfully they run > their mail systems, I seriously doubt that there's anything AOL could do > that would cause those systems to crash; particularly not something as > simple as sending a big message. I found the whole document at . I think that's about all I am likely to be allowed to say on this subject. But thanks for the pointers! And if anyone else has any other references on this subject (either in the news, usenet newsgroups, mailing lists, etc...), I'd love to hear about them. Especially if you could point me at an archive so that I could get more context for the kinds of comments being made. -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 2 19:08:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA14768 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA14690 for ; Tue, 2 Apr 1996 19:05:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199604030305.TAA14690@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3570; Wed, 03 Apr 96 05:05:06 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 4733; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 05:05:07 +0200 Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 04:58:12 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 2 Apr 1996 21:33:16 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What I don't understand with this lawsuit is what exactly is being alleged, in concrete technical terms. Somehow I fail to see how AOL could update the return address of messages sent by Cyber Promo unless Cyber Promo was posting them from AOL, in which case they should have signed the TOS agreement and their account would have been cut off without much room for a lawsuit. So I have to assume that these bounces were for recipients *at* AOL that were out of disk space or the like? But then, in this case the messages would normally have bounced back to Cyber Promo and crashed *their* machine. I think it says a lot when a spammer takes an ISP to court and the only descriptions you can find are in lawyerese with all the important details removed. It looks like the goal is to set a legal precedent in favour of spamming, and the less factual information there is, the more likely this is to happen. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 3 21:57:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA04470 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:49:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp12.netcom.com [163.179.3.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA04434 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:49:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id VAA15711; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 21:33:38 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0u4gaa-000gm9C; Wed, 3 Apr 96 20:24 PST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Denial of Service Attack To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:24:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It looks like one of my mailing lists is undergoing a possible denial of service attack. Has anyone else seen such an attack from this site, (Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se) or Clarence Verdin? It looks like they've forwarded a bounce message with a multi-megabyte file (10 Mbytes arrived here in one mail message so far). According to unnamed sources, system admin is alleged to have written => => >From Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se Wed Apr 3 18:46:44 1996 => Received: from gatekeeper.pharmacia.se by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) => id SAA22611; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:16:04 -0800 => Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal) => id AA03354; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 04:12:05 +0200 => Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131) => id AA13474; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 04:14:08 +0200 => Received: from ccMail by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) => id 9603048285.AA828587537; Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:12:17 MET => Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:12:17 MET => From: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (ccMail SMTPLINK) => Message-Id: <9603048285.AA828587537@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se> => To: => Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message => => Message too big => => Original text follows => ---------------------------------------------- => Received: from gatekeeper.pharmacia.se by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) => ; Thu, 04 Apr 96 04:08:11 MET => Return-Path: => Received: by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal) => id AA27108; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200 => Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200 => From: Mail Delivery Subsystem => Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable => Message-Id: <9604040138.AA27108@gatekeeper.pharmacia.se> => To: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se => => ----- Transcript of session follows ----- => While talking to mail.uu.net: => >>> DATA => <<< 552 Message exceeds maximum fixed size (2000000) => 554 ... Service unavailable => => ----- Unsent message follows ----- => Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal) => id AA00164; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:56 +0200 => Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131) => id AA13247; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:41:02 +0200 => Received: from ccMail by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) => id 9603048285.AA828585552; Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:39:12 MET => Date: Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:39:12 MET => From: Tommy_Oden@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (ccMail SMTPLINK) => Message-Id: <9603048285.AA828585552@ccsmtp.pharmacia.se> => To: => Subject: ccMail SMTPLINK Undeliverable Message => => Message too big => => Original text follows => ---------------------------------------------- => Received: from mailgate.pharmacia.se by ccsmtp.pharmacia.se (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) => ; Thu, 04 Apr 96 03:38:19 MET => Return-Path: => Received: by mailgate.pharmacia.se (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3/sal-950131) => id AA13239; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:38:00 +0200 => Received: from bronze.coil.com by gatekeeper.pharmacia.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Jan96/sal) => id AA25190; Thu, 4 Apr 1996 03:28:20 +0200 => Received: from [198.4.94.242] (cmh42.coil.com [198.4.94.242]) by bronze.coil.com (8.6.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA17021 for ; Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:25:02 -0500 => Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 19:25:02 -0500 => Message-Id: <199604040025.TAA17021@bronze.coil.com> => Mime-Version: 1.0 => Content-Type: text/plain => Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit => From: verdinc@coil.com => To: clarence.verdin@usdub.pharmacia.se => X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.21 => X-Spry-Attachment: t6.exe => X-Spry-Attachment: t6_host.exe => => => => <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> => From: verdinc@coil.com => To: clarence.verdin@usdub.pharmacia.se => => Here is the latest version of termite from www.pixel.co.uk => => <---- End Forwarded Message ----> => => <---- Begin Attached File ----> => begin 644 t6.exe -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | From hence, ye beauties, undeceived, james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Know, one false step is ne'er retrieved, | And be with caution bold. | Not all that tempts your wandering eyes | And heedless hearts is lawful prize; | Nor all that glisters gold. From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 14:17:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA14695 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:07:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA14687 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from plains.uwyo.edu (plains.uwyo.edu) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #14244) id <01I384F5K4800012UB@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 06 Apr 1996 14:56:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from PLAINS.UWYO.EDU by PLAINS.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #14244) id <01I384F5LQB4004Y1L@PLAINS.UWYO.EDU>; Sat, 06 Apr 1996 14:56:32 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 14:56:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Andrew N. Edmond" Subject: Majordomo vs. SmartList In-reply-to: To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, Frostie Sprout Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be setting up a mailing list server this month with approximately 40 lists, 50-100 subscribers each (I have a new Pentium Pro 200mhz dedicated for the service) and I am still, after much research, stuck on a fence between Majordomo and SmartList. As I understand it, SmartList is easier on system resources. It has been told to be that for EVERY message that comes into MajorDomo a new majordomo is called into memory to handle it, and a new perl program to handle the scripts. It has also been told that SmartList only keeps on copy of itself in memory for each mailing list - regardless of queued messages. With nearly 20000 messages (anticipated) being distributed, calling 20000 majordomos into memory each day would kill even a Pentium Pro 200mhz system! How ever - Majordomo is clearly the advance leader in free mailing list software in it's remote administration features, digest features, and has much fewer bugs. I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo. Any thoughts on this? Andy ............................................................................. . Andrew Edmond . Children of a future age, . .. edmond@plains.uwyo.edu ... Reading this indignant page, .. ... University of Wyoming ..... Know that in a former time, ... .... Botany Department ....... A path to God was thought a crime. .... .....................VISIONARY PLANTS LIST................................... From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 14:58:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA16616 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:56:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from luna.bearnet.com (luna.bearnet.com [206.54.188.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA16601 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mars.bearnet.com (mars.bearnet.com [206.54.188.30]) by luna.bearnet.com (8.6.12/luna) with SMTP id QAA12012; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:56:28 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960406225425.007116a4@luna.bearnet.com> Organization: BearHeart Technology Group X-BearMail: Mars X-Internet-Freedom: Help Keep the Internet Free! X-Sender: billw@luna.bearnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 16:54:25 -0600 To: "Andrew N. Edmond" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: BearHeart / Bill Weinman Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList Cc: SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, Frostie Sprout Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:56 pm 4/6/96 -0700, Andrew N. Edmond spake: >I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I >could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo. > >Any thoughts on this? I just moved my mailing list over from an aliased sendmail list to procmail/SmartList. I was unable to get majordomo working well at all--it's a major kluge! I sent out my first mailing last night to a list of 1070 email addresses and it took less than an hour. With aliased sendmail alone it took over 8 hours. SmartMail is very smart. It splits my list up into managable chunks and spawns multiple copies of sendmail to send it out. It does preprocessing on the addresses to make sure that sendmail isn't wasting its time. It handles bounces, and will even unsubscribe addresses that bounce more than n times. I like it. But then, I gave up on majordomo before really getting it running. But I saw the code and concluded that it was too klugey. BTW, majordomo is written in perl and SmartList is almost all in well-written C (I've been writing and teaching C for over 10 years). MHO, --Bill Weinman +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Author of The CGI Book -- http://www.bearnet.com/cgibook/ | http://www.bearnet.com/ || http://www.weinman.com/wew/ From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 16:13:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA18850 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA18844 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 6 Apr 96 16:07 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:07:53 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: another attempted magazine spam X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960125-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. I know how small and "out-of-the-way" my list is, and this is the third time in as many months. What's up with this?? Is all this magazine subscription spam really coming from one place, or what?? Why can we not seem to get this guy and shut him down?? Is he just hopping from service provider to service provider?? Is there any reported incidences of this guy actually getting shutdown in the past?? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 16:43:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA19723 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from toko.graphics.cornell.edu (TOKO.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.155]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA19717 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by toko.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13238; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 19:32:38 -0500 Message-Id: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 06 Apr 96 16:07:53 PST." Date: Sat, 06 Apr 96 19:32:37 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they don't match what's already there). Thanks. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:12:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA20109 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA20103 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 6 Apr 96 16:45 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:45:55 -0800 (PST) To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: another attempted magazine spam In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960125-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Mitch Collinsworth on scroll <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> > > >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. > > Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those > of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they > don't match what's already there). Thanks. Sorry, headers of the recent at the end of this message. If people here are interested in getting early notice of spams, why don't we set up a "closed subscription, only members can post" mailing list to which spam mail can be bounced. The mailing list processor can then filter out all but a few headers (which can be decided on by the subscription base), check for duplication, and then distribute. If the list-manager were resourceful enough he/she could autoprocess the distribution from the list to add the desired information to her/his kill list. I think that might cut down on the "spam of the hour" posts to this list as well. Thots?? The most recent magazine spam headers follow (I don't think any of us need to see the body yet again - if you do, it'll be coming to a mailing list near you soon). b. ----------------------- cut -------------------------------- >From imcon.ilinx.com!uni.durban.ac.za!nicola.du.plessis Sat Apr 6 14:06:48 1996 Return-Path: Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 6 Apr 96 14:06 PST Received: by imcon.ilinx.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.6) id ; Sat, 6 Apr 96 14:06 PST Sender: uni.durban.ac.za!nicola.du.plessis@imcon.ilinx.com Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2] by wolfe.wimsey.com with smtp (Smail-3.1.29.1 #13) id m0u5fUk-000U1PC; Sat, 6 Apr 96 13:26 PST Received: from [128.227.163.147] (dialup12.afn.org [128.227.163.140]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA19862; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:02:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nicola.du.plessis@vax1.uni.durban.ac.za (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: please.reply.via.fax@or.smail.to.fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below.thank.you Approved: moderator X-Priority: 2 (High) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:45:33 +0200 To: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za From: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za, dfgeinlink22@vax1.vax.joburg.org.za, chiu@cap.town.ac.za, ronnie@jhft.co.za, ellen@tci.co.za, samuels@uni.transvaal.ac.za, c.en@birmingham.org.za, chir@natal.co.za, wrend@rfg1.co.za, susans@uni.swazilan.ac.za, gregor@southampton.org.za, ellen@plymouth.ac.za, gfos@fresno.co.za, tr.ns@uni.london.ac.za, jimt@uni.london.ac.za, fharile@plymouth.org.za, relson@c.ilds.co.za, nels@hall.co.za, sarap@ruv4.co.za, gspelling@earthlite.co.za (Nicola du Plessis, President of the South Africa Association of University Students and the Board of Directors of the South Africa Association of University Students) Subject: ---> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 290+ Popular USA Titles -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:47:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA21588 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from netaxs.com (netaxs.com [198.69.186.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA21582 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:37:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix5.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix5.netaxs.com [207.8.186.7]) by netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id UAA06263 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:35:49 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix5.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA11891; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:25:58 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:25:57 -0500 (EST) From: Jenkintown is very boring cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: > > >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. > > Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those > of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they > don't match what's already there). Thanks. > > -Mitch > (assmunch is probably subbed to this thing so I shouldn't say anything, really) but does our magazine spam friend ever change his subject header that much? The reason I ask is that I put ina subject-line procmail filter for *Magazine Sub* weeks ago directed to /dev/null and I haven't received a copy of that spam again. (my lists have never been hit with it, just lists I'm subbed to) Now people who have no control over their list setup can't do anything, but certainly those of us who do (I'm not one...) should be able to filter the spam before it hits the list. Jason From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 6 17:58:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA21528 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserver3.tiac.net (mailserver3.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA21522 for ; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailserver1.tiac.net (mailserver1.tiac.net [199.0.65.232]) by mailserver3.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id UAA22083; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:31:29 -0500 Received: from smoe.org (jeffw@jane.smoe.org [199.0.65.144]) by mailserver1.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with SMTP id UAA12555; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:33:10 -0500 Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA26477; Sat, 6 Apr 96 20:30:26 EST From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9604070130.AA26477@smoe.org> Subject: Re: another attempted magazine spam To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch Collinsworth) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:30:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: brian@ilinx.bctel.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9604070032.AA13238@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> from "Mitch Collinsworth" at Apr 6, 96 07:32:37 pm Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mitch Collinsworth writes: > > > >I stopped yet another attemped magazine spam. > > Please post (as a minimum) the From: and Subject: headers here so those > of us attempting to filter them can add them to our regexp lists (if they > don't match what's already there). Thanks. This is how they looked from here. >From nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za Sat Apr 6 17:16:24 1996 Return-Path: Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA25452; Sat, 6 Apr 96 17:16:24 EST Received: from [128.227.163.147] (dialup12.afn.org [128.227.163.140]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA20351; Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:38:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nicola.du.plessis@vax1.uni.durban.ac.za (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: please.reply.via.fax@or.smail.to.fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below.thank.you Approved: moderator X-Priority: 2 (High) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 13:22:14 +0200 To: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za From: nicola.du.plessis@uni.durban.ac.za, van_rooyen@vax1.vax.joburg.org.za, chiu@capet.wn.ac.za, ronnie@jhft.co.za, ellen@tci.co.za, samuels@uni.transvaal.ac.za, che@birmingham.org.za, chir@natal.co.za, wrend@rfg1.co.za, susans@uni.swaziland.c.za, gregor@southampton.org.za, ellen@plymouth.ac.za, gfos@fresno.co.za, tren@uni.london.ac.za, jimt@uni.london.ac.za, fharile@plymouth.org.za, relson@chi.ds.co.za, nels@hall.co.za, sarap@ruv4.co.za, gspelling@earthlite.co.za (Nicola du Plessis, President of the South Africa Association of University Students and the Board of Directors of the South Africa Association of University Students) Subject: ---> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 290+ Popular USA Titles From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 7 07:56:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA04610 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access.netaxs.com ([198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA04604 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 07:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [207.8.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA03099; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:49:21 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA00713; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:47:59 -0400 Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenkintown is very boring cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, SmartList@Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > It has also been told that SmartList only keeps on copy of itself in > memory for each mailing list - regardless of queued messages. With nearly > 20000 messages (anticipated) being distributed, calling 20000 majordomos > into memory each day would kill even a Pentium Pro 200mhz system! > > How ever - Majordomo is clearly the advance leader in free mailing list > software in it's remote administration features, digest features, and has > much fewer bugs. > > I would be willing to make that trade off (SmartList over MajorDomo) if I > could prove that SmartList handled system resources better that Majordomo. > > Any thoughts on this? > All I know is: 1) Every system I've used that had majordomo as the listserver has had to chuck majordomo because eventually it ate every system resource in sight. One kept throwing memory in the box, and at one point majordomo got so stoned it spewed out 200 copies of each post. 2) I tried using Smartlist on another system and gave up because of the "people can't unsubscribe" bug that shows up on some systems. The system I'm on now switched from majordomo to listproc, and appears to be having problems with listproc, too. Smartlist probably isn't helped by the fact that to the uninitiated, procmail scripts look like line noise. Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 7 20:10:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA03277 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 20:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA09220 for ; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id KAA03322; Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:11:26 -0700 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net(158.152.1.108) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma003320; Sun Apr 7 10:10:51 1996 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id ad23964; 7 Apr 96 17:14 GMT Received: from bclimser.demon.co.uk ([158.152.80.60]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa20426; 7 Apr 96 18:13 +0100 From: Sanwar Ali Organization: BCL Immigration Services To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:14:35 +0000 Subject: Help; Majordomo Problems Reply-to: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <828897186.20426.0@bclimser.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I have a list on majordomo at pobox. I have recently lost about 200 subscribers. Pobox have kindly offered to restore from a backup early on 05.04.96. I do not know what has caused this problem. I am normally very careful when using WEBDOMO (web front-end for MAJORDOMO). I am currently thinking that the only thing I can do to solve this prob is to get pobox to restore from backup and then I will look through the sub and unsub requests covering say 06.04.96 and part of 05.04.96. and hopefully this will solve the problem. Any advice and/or comments would be v much appreciated. Many thanks. -- Sanwar Ali Managing Partner BCL Immigration Services 40 South Audley Street Mayfair London, W1Y 5DH UK Telephone: +44 171 495 3999 or +44 171 495 8662 Fax: +44 171 495 3991 e-mail: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk, sanwar@pobox.com For public key: finger sanwar@pobox.com ******************** Owners of the Visa-Free List. "Discussion of how to gain another nationality for visa-free travel". To subscribe: subscribe visa-free [with nothing else] to majordomo@pobox.com ****************** From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 02:41:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA29888 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:35:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA29880 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28043; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:33:26 +0200 (MET DST) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199604080933.LAA28043@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Magazine spam header To: postmaster@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 11:33:25 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I received the latest "Free 1 yr. Magazine" spam from an EXISTING address at AOL.COM. Maybe, it uses a "service" at fidonet to send the material to different lists, if it is not fake. The user exists, but currently has a full mailbox. THIS MEANS THAT AOL KNOWS THE NAME, ADDRESS, AND OTHER IMPORTANT FEATURES OF THIS USER. I suggest AOL to take appropriate action. Alexander Verbraeck. List manager BPR-L Forwarded message: >From JohnChen00@aol.com Mon Apr 8 10:40:35 MET DST 1996 From: JohnChen00@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:32:58 -0400 Message-ID: <960408033254_266460489@mail06> Subject: Interesting Free Offer........ --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Interesting Free Offer........ Date: 96-04-08 02:45:01 EDT From: JohnChen00 To: announcement.service@r1.f62.n8669.z303.fidonet.org -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info request form below. <> -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:18:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA07743 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 05:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA07735 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 05:57:16 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA01636; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:54:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:54:35 -0400 Message-ID: <960408085434_371255369@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl, Postmaster@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl Subject: Re: Magazine spam header Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-04-08 08:16:22 EDT, A.Verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (Alexander Verbraeck) writes: > I suggest AOL to take appropriate action. My apologies for the lengthy delay in dealing with the spammer; s/he had started just after I retired for the evening. In any event, the account has been terminated with no chance for appeal. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:34:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA08646 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA08637 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id ad11811; 8 Apr 96 14:22 +0100 Received: from teapots.demon.co.uk ([194.222.29.200]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa13886; 8 Apr 96 14:21 +0100 Received: from teapots.demon.co.uk by teapots.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA828976938 ; Mon, 08 Apr 96 14:22:18 gmt Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Michael White To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 14:21:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Majordomo for PC? X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.21) Message-ID: <828969672.13886.0@teapots.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all. I am now going to stop using Linux and other UNIXes alltogether to use PCs. I am running a few lists via the Majordomo for Linux and I want to continue using the same or similar commands when I switch al operations to my PCs. I have almost any network driver and email package you like, so that's not a problem - but the only way I have found of managing lists from a PC is with the Pegasus mail 'mail filtering rules' and 'distribution lists'.. Is there a Majordomo port for PC?... __________________________________________________________ mike@teapots.demon.co.uk ac@angel.co.uk Michael White http://www.angel.co.uk/ac/mikey/index.shtml Aberdeen ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ **New Sig!!** From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:41:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA09127 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.htp.com (mail.htp.com [199.171.4.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA09113 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.255.175.13] (ppp03.emapnet.com [204.255.175.13]) by mail.htp.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id JAA01908 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:36:31 -0400 X-Sender: simonsez@mail.emapnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:34:33 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: simonsez@emapnet.com (Andrea and Jay) Subject: another address for magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been following the posting of mag spam addresses, but dont know if this one was posted yet. Sorry if its a dup. My announcement came out last night - bounce came in this morning! >From nethumor-owner Mon Apr 8 01:43:15 1996 Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by smtp.bapp.com; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 01:43:14 -0600 From: JohnChen00@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA21841; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:36:14 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 03:36:14 -0400 Message-ID: <960408033614_266461215@emout09.mail.aol.com> Subject: Interesting Free Offer........ Apparently-To: --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Interesting Free Offer........ Date: 96-04-08 02:45:01 EDT From: JohnChen00 To: announcement.service@r1.f62.n8669.z303.fidonet.org -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will get a quick reply via email within 1 business day of receipt of the info request form below. ........etc, etc, etc From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 06:54:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA09614 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vorlon.mit.edu (VORLON.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.139]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA09608 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 06:51:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jered@localhost) by vorlon.mit.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA16948; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:49:18 -0400 Message-Id: <199604081349.JAA16948@vorlon.mit.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Pangaea Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Apr 1996 09:49:18 EDT From: Jered Floyd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I hadn't seen this go to the list yet, and thought people might find this interesting. This is apparently being sent to many list managers. --Jered jered@mit.edu ------- Forwarded Message From: List Archive Manager Subject: request to archive Pangaea Reference Systems, Inc. is developing a search service (Reference.COM) that will provide the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service will include paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service will be both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. Pangaea's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the list. By allowing us access to your list, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. Should you have any questions regarding the service, please contact us at list-manager@Reference.COM. If you are willing to include your list in our search service, please add the address listarch+Lost-Chords@list-archive.Reference.COM to the list. We would also appreciate a note sent to list-manager@Reference.COM letting us know whether or not you are willing to participate. If we do not hear from you in one week, we will assume that you do not object to our sending a subscription message to your list server. If you prefer that we not archive your list, please respond within that period. Thanks for your consideration. ====================================================================== Pangaea Reference Systems NASA Ames Technology Commercialization Center 155A Moffett Park Drive, Suite 104 http://www.Reference.COM Sunnyvale, CA 94089 +1 408 541 7633 ====================================================================== Q: How much will users have to pay to get to the data I'm supplying you for free? A: Zero, nada, zilch. Not now, not ever. We will make our money by including ads on the web page, much like other free services do today. Someday we may add premium services that will include an additional charge, but the base services will always be free to the end user. Q: Just who are you? A: We are a small startup located in the NASA Ames Technology Commercialization Center in Silicon Valley. Our access to database technology from Oracle, hardware from Sun, and high speed Internet access from Pacific Bell gives us a unique edge. Our technical team includes Eric Allman, the creator/developer of sendmail and Professor Hector Garcia-Molina, head of the Digital Library Project at Stanford University. Q: How will people access your service? A: Queries can be submitted and the results retrieved via the web (http://www.reference.com) or by e-mail. See our home page for details. ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 08:54:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA13564 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA13555; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:18 -0800 To: Jered Floyd , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Pangaea Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:49 AM 4/8/96, Jered Floyd wrote: > I hadn't seen this go to the list yet, and thought people might find >this interesting. This is apparently being sent to many list managers. > >--Jered >jered@mit.edu > >------- Forwarded Message >From: List Archive Manager >Subject: request to archive > >Pangaea Reference Systems, Inc. is developing a search service >(Reference.COM) that will provide the Internet community fast, easy, >and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service >is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, >hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, >Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service will >include paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free >advertising space for non-profits. The service will be both Web and >e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository >of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. > >Pangaea's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of >Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to >subscribe to the list. By allowing us access to >your list, you will be making your content (current and historical) >easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your >own subscribers. ... One of the principals of this company is Eric Allman, of Sendmail fame. Eric first approached me concerning this project about 6 months ago. Since then, I've had several long discussions with him about this project, and how to do it so as to maximize usefulness to the Internet community while minimizing hassle and heartburn for the list managers. They're very sensitive to the concerns of list managers, and are trying really hard not to step on anybody's toes. What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner" ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive. If you run a private or sensitive list, or for any other reason don't want your list included in the set they archive, just tell them; they'll be happy to leave you out. On the other hand, if you run a public list, why not let 'em archive and index it? I'm going to let them subscribe to all the lists here at GreatCircle.COM. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 09:39:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA15529 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA15523 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (greyhave@mon-ca5-19.ix.netcom.com [199.182.130.179]) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA14994 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:33:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:33:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199604081633.JAA14994@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: greyhave@ix.netcom.com (R.Smith) Subject: Re: [Pangaea] List "advertisement" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >They're very >sensitive to the concerns of list managers, and are trying really hard not >to step on anybody's toes. >If you run a private or sensitive list, or for any other reason don't want >your list included in the set they archive, just tell them; they'll be >happy to leave you out. On the other hand, if you run a public list, why >not let 'em archive and index it? I have mixed feelings about List publicity in general and I'd like to share these with other List Managers. I own a list for present and prospective adoptive parents of Chinese orphans. Subscription is open, unmoderated, but only subscribers can post. The tone of the group is amazingly buoyant and upbeat, and truly heartwarming. In three months, we've had no flames and only slight bickering, easily resolved. I've had only one problem with an anonymous subscriber who posted a disturbing rumor and was unsubscribed. The List now has 600 subscribers in 10 countries - about 1100 people counting couples - so we're not exactly "private". On the other hand, given the nature of the subject, many of the posts are (not surprisingly) emotional and personal. We are not archived, and the general feeling, when I raised the question with the small group subscribed at the start, was that they didn't feel comfortable having their messages archived if they could be read by "outsiders". On the other hand, I'd like to see that news of the existence of the List reaches everyone who has an interest in China adoption. I just added our List name and description to the Liszt index. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Richard Smith From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 09:54:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA15492 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA15486; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA04083; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:38:24 -0400 From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604081238.ZM4081@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 12:38:23 -0400 In-Reply-To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) "Re: Pangaea" (Apr 8, 8:43am) References: Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Brent Chapman , Jered Floyd , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pangaea Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 8, 8:43am, Brent Chapman wrote: > What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing > lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some > pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea > site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner" > ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive. In my discussions with Eric, I got the impression that it was more like DejaNews, but with mailing lists included as well. They're going to be using some very interesting technology to make the searches much useful and relevant to the people doing the searches (far beyond simple keyword or boolean searches, or those combined with some sort of ranking system). This is part of why they've already made it into the set of additional references in the new version of the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ -- I honestly believe that if anyone can make this kind of project succeed, they can. > I'm going to let them subscribe to all the lists here at GreatCircle.COM. All of the lists I manage are very small and not well-known, and only one or two of them are fairly "private". Assuming I eve show up on their "radar" and they request to be added to my public lists, I'll be glad to give them a subscription. -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 8 23:09:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA00226 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA18198 for ; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 10:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604081738.KAA18198@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6658; Mon, 08 Apr 96 19:38:08 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 8436; Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:38:08 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:26:43 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Pangaea To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 8 Apr 1996 08:43:18 -0800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from which they will collect $$$ (and I don't care if it's for profit or non profit, the fact of the matter is that this $$$ will be used to pay the requestor's paycheck). The least they could do (and I don't know the specifics of this particular service, since I haven't been contacted yet) is not to force me to individually reply to 150 solicitations for each of the ~150 lists I am in charge of, and put REJECT as the first line of my message (or whatever the case might be) if I do not want my lists included. As a matter of policy, I interpret this as an attempt to bully me into acceptance to maximize the $$$ transfer, and I filter out the requestor's domain so that they cannot subscribe to any of the lists. To put it simply, when people ask me a favour I expect them to minimize the amount of work that it will take me to EITHER accept or reject the favour, and I certainly resent any implication that if I am stupid enough to refuse to help them make money, I'll get what I deserve and it's perfectly ok if I have to spend an hour replying REJECT to 150 individual messages. Eric From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 00:24:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA05788 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr ([156.147.205.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA05782 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19847; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:17:19 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:17:19 +1000 From: kimhl@gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr (kim hong lak(4327)) Message-Id: <9604090617.AA19847@gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: resending problem(*) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I'v been installed majordomo on AIX 3.2.4 . And there is no problem to get a basic response(ex. lists , help , info ....) from majordomo server. but whenever resending to list has some problem like below . Error message below was appeared in postmaster of majordomo server when resending was processing. So anyone who subscribed to that list can't receive the mail. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Message 1: From roo Tue Apr 9 05:53:52 1996 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 05:53:52 GMT To: Postmaster From: Majordomo Subject: MAJORDOMO ABORT Reply-To: Majordomo -- MAJORDOMO ABORT open of temp file /usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/digest/sw-digest/shlock.19226 failed No such file or directory ------------------------------------------------------------------ And Would you please check out the aliases file on majordomo server? The aliases file is below ------------------------------------------------------------------ majordomo: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo" majordomo-owner: kimhl@gsen.goldstar.co.kr owner-majordomo: kimhl # Software owner-sw: leemr@gsenu6.gsen.goldstar.co.kr sw-approval: leemr@gsenu6.gsen.goldstar.co.kr sw: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper resend -l sw -h gsenu14.gsen.goldstar.co.kr sw-outgoing" sw-digest: sw owner-sw-outgoing: owner-sw sw-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/lists/sw, "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper digest -r -C -l sw-digest sw-digest-outgoing" owner-sw-digest-outgoing: owner-sw sw-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/mail/lists/sw-digest owner-sw-request: owner-sw sw-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo -l sw" owner-sw-digest-request: sw-digest-owner sw-digest-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo -l sw-digest" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Thank you for reading From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 04:56:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA18806 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Garbo.NrgUp.Com (nrgup-gw.iquest.net [198.70.144.154]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA18800 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonathan@localhost) by Garbo.NrgUp.Com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11735 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:40:12 -0500 From: Jonathan Bradshaw Message-Id: <199604091140.GAA11735@Garbo.NrgUp.Com> Subject: Typo... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:40:12 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3A] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yeh, there was a typo in my last message, its mailhost.worldnet.att.com, shows you that at 6am I can't even copy simple text from one terminal to the other. -- Jonathan M. Bradshaw | Jonathan@NrgUp.Com | http://WWW.NrgUp.Com/jonathan 1024 PGP Key fingerprint EA 16 1B 5D 5D 94 6B 06 58 FD E6 E9 52 F3 6E 11 Software Administrator, Boehringer Mannheim Corporation, Indianapolis, IN Please note my opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 05:13:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA18626 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Garbo.NrgUp.Com (nrgup-gw.iquest.net [198.70.144.154]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA18564 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 04:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jonathan@localhost) by Garbo.NrgUp.Com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA11702; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:37:59 -0500 From: Jonathan Bradshaw Message-Id: <199604091137.GAA11702@Garbo.NrgUp.Com> Subject: WorldNet - Do they know what mail is? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 06:37:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: postmaster@worldnet.att.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3A] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Somehow it does not suprise me that WorldNet.Att.Com has yet to get a clue about email. So far, my mailq is full of "No route to host" for a host called postoffice.worldnet.att.com Now, checking DNS I see that host doesn't exist and now the MX points to mailhost.worldnet.att.com So the mail in my queue will never arrive -- I assume that they have changed their DNS entry from postoffice to mailhost. Hmm, ok, unfortunately, mailhost returns mailhost.worldnett.att.net: Unknown server error Well, guess Worldnet customers get no email. Certainly I think nearly nothing has managed to get to them from my mailing lists and I have yet to receive anything from them. One machine to handle all Worldnet mail? Oh boy... will they ever learn? .... and the company that will bring it to you... Yeh right :-) Won't bring them email! - -- Jonathan M. Bradshaw | Jonathan@NrgUp.Com | http://WWW.NrgUp.Com/jonathan 1024 PGP Key fingerprint EA 16 1B 5D 5D 94 6B 06 58 FD E6 E9 52 F3 6E 11 Software Administrator, Boehringer Mannheim Corporation, Indianapolis, IN Please note my opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMWpL/1A1bhXvqhbrAQHCNwP7BWSQHqikSuR4pSwbZ5coEVDCAMSaenvK i3L1fRdSfba9SCZ/HhmndZuC5CMBIr+6IiHX8ocVCdD/nWbqs1e7YFd7S+Nk62hU Z1I35WWmH4Fq6FwustCI+CUi9VMJb3ui72EVniVnKcguY4YYaaAiUjIgazy0lo7q cadYpmageEY= =defI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 07:19:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA27036 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU (sdsumus.sdstate.edu [137.216.60.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA27027 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 07:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Lyman.sdstate.edu by SDSUMUS.SDSTATE.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 09 Apr 96 07:56:37 CST Message-ID: <316A899A.3513@sdsumus.sdstate.edu> Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 09:00:26 -0700 From: Joe Moore Organization: South Dakota State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #66 References: <199604090800.BAA08746@miles.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I guess I read their letter differently? The 150 messages will be annoying but they would need to go to a lot of work to eliminate duplicates there. Part of Pangaea note: > If you are willing to include your list in our search service, please > add the address listarch+Lost-Chords@list-archive.Reference.COM > to the list. We would also appreciate a note sent > to list-manager@Reference.COM letting us know whether or not you are > willing to participate. > Part of Eric T note: > For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to > allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default > action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear > otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from > which they will collect $$$ (and I don't care if it's for profit or non -- Joe Moore South Dakota State University Normal E-mail: cc19@sdsumus.sdstate.edu More urgent E-mail: moorej@cc.sdstate.edu (but don't hesitate to use) Quick mail URL: mailto:moorej@cc.sdstate.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 9 11:26:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA08107 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA08052 for ; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604091748.KAA08052@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6647; Tue, 09 Apr 96 19:47:16 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0174; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:47:16 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:33:33 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Pangaea To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 from Brent Chapman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 Brent Chapman said: >On the other hand, they could have simply subscribed to your lists >without bothering to ask first, and chances are you'd never have >noticed. It would have looked like a subscription spoof and been handled accordingly. Sorry, it's not like it's not been tried before. >And look at this from another point of view: I intend to allow them to >subscribe to my lists. If they changed their default, then I'd have to >manually process all their subscriptions, or send back a message saying >"Yes, it's OK for you to subscribe." Which would take you all of 30 seconds. My point being that THEY are going to make money on the lists YOU run, typically on a volunteer basis, and it is only fair that THEY should make the effort. This includes the effort of adding 10 lines to their perl script so that they only send one request for all the lists hosted at any given machine, to which you can answer either YES TO ALL or YES TO THE FOLLOWING. Then it takes you just as long to say yes or no. >The question is, which is more common: list owners that are going to say >yes, or list owners that are going to say no? I think the former; And you're perfectly right. If being on vacation or not having the time to answer REJECT to 150 automatically generated messages counts as a yes, there's no question that most of the list owners will say yes, not necessarily because they think it will be a good service or because they are eager to contribute to the paycheck of the author of sendmail, but simply because they don't have the time or energy to turn it off. Brent, your logic and rationale here follows the assumption that these are good people who are out to do a Good Thing. I appreciate the fact that you know them personally and may feel this way. The procedures and etiquette, however, should be the same for any company that wishes to provide this kind of service. It annoys me to think that if CyberPorn Inc. made the same request tomorrow in exactly the same terms, except with the intent to publish X-rated advertisements instead, people would all be flaming them for having made it so difficult not to be included. The thing is, personally I don't care if it's the Pope or CyberPorn Inc. I expect the same courtesy from both in terms of not wasting my time, and I respect the fact that both are equally entitled to hope that I will let them access my lists and thus the most reasonable default is YES. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 06:55:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA10896 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aeat.co.uk (gw.aeat.co.uk [151.182.136.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA10890 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 06:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jlines.harwell.aeat.co.uk by aeat.co.uk (8.7.1/AEAT-GW-1.3) id OAA02743; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:21:01 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost.harwell.aeat.co.uk by jlines.harwell.aeat.co.uk with SMTP id OAA23866; 8.6.12/jl1.0; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:21:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199604101321.OAA23866@jlines.harwell.aeat.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: BKnowles@aol.net cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, john.lines@aeat.co.uk Subject: robotinfo list manager command - Was: Re: Pangaea In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Apr 1996 12:38:23 EDT." <9604081238.ZM4081@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:20:56 +0100 From: John Lines Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > On Apr 8, 8:43am, Brent Chapman wrote: > > > What they're talking about is basicly a Yahoo or Alta Vista for mailing > > lists. They'll archive everything, and set it up for access via some > > pretty powerful search engines. Presumably when people access the Pangaea > > site through the Web, to run their searches, they'll get little "banner" > > ads (just like on Yahoo) on each page of search results; very unobtrusive. > > In my discussions with Eric, I got the impression that it was more > like DejaNews, but with mailing lists included as well. They're going > to be using some very interesting technology to make the searches much > useful and relevant to the people doing the searches (far beyond > simple keyword or boolean searches, or those combined with some sort > of ranking system). You can ask most Web indexing agents not to index your pages by using the robots.txt file. Perhaps what we need for lists is a way to return information to 'Listcrawler' robots to indicate information about the list policy in a structured way. For example it would be trivial to add a new 'robotinfo [listname]' command to Majordomo (just crib the existing info command) It could return information as a set of fields e.g. Listname: sample Listtype: majordomo Moderated: yes Www-archive: http://www.sample.com/lists/sample/ Subscriptions: closed ... RobotArchive: no IncludeInMetaLists: ask owner Keywords: sample list The RobotArchive field indicates whether robot subscribers are welcome or not The IncludeInMetaLists tells collectors of lists whether they should publish the existence of your list. (Someone can probably think of better names for these fields) Both have the field values yes - go ahead and index or archive no - dont index (and dont bother the list owner to ask) ask [owner or email address] - ask the list owner or the given email address for permission. All the fields in the return message are optional, but designed to help a list manager to communicate with others who are interested in the list itself in a structured way, similar to the way that normal list management software allows the list owner to communicate information about the list to subscribers in a structured way. It would help everyone if we could establish the same keyword and reply format across all list management packages. John Lines (AEA Technology Internet Manager) From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 08:43:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA21723 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA21693 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA03618 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:26:39 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26547; Wed, 10 Apr 96 08:26:38 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> Subject: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:26:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'. Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom having problems? Anyone else seeing this? Jeff From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 09:49:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA25737 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA25723 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:29:18 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:29:18 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:29:18 +0200 Message-Id: <199604101629.15415.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: jeffw@triple-i.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> (jeffw@triple-i.com) Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Jeff Wasilko] | I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on ix.netcom.com | bouncing back as 'user unknown'. Well, I've currently got only one ix.netcom.com subscriber, but it's pretty much indeterminate whether he's reported as unknown or not. Unfortunately, I haven't kept the bounces, but the last bounce came from ix13.ix.netcom.com. When I later checked manually (with vrfy), it was working. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 12:34:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA26486 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rip.psg.com (rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA26451 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from walter.psg.com by rip.psg.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0u72xJ-00081ZC; Wed, 10 Apr 96 09:41 PDT Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 09:41 PDT Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960410095410.0f677dc2@rip.psg.com> X-Sender: walter@rip.psg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.com From: Walter Morales Subject: I have a question Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First time here.. > > And I have a question. > > I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users. > There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the > netiquette guide. > > My first request was for him to slow down a little on the number of messages > that he was sending >10 a day, and the average before was about <20 from all > the users a day. His response "I don't count them, so that it is not > relevant to me" > > Well.. not very happy here since it was causing hundreds of bounces from > people that were no longer with email accounts or mail boxes full, etc. > > Other users started to complain and this user just kept his messages non > stop. Messages that were sent to him in a personal basis he forward to the > whole list. > > Anyway, I am tired of it and so are many other users. My question is, is > there any problem in removing such a problematic user? others have tried to > reason with him but it does not work. > > After removing a user like this he may start bothering other people that > will eventually write me and I don't have much time to answer dozens of > questions from people that have no idea about his behavior on my list. > > Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks > walter > > From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:45:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA03179 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA02592 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id LAA17231; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:13:22 -0700 Received: from wubios.wustl.edu(128.252.117.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma017223; Wed Apr 10 11:12:35 1996 Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id MAA23989 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199604101701.MAA23989@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? To: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:01:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 08:26:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on > ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'. > > Anyone else seeing this? > yup! > Jeff > -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:53:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA00279 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ecsvax.uncecs.edu (ecsvax.uncecs.edu [152.4.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA00264 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 11:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ecsvax.uncecs.edu (5.65/tas-gen/may94) id AA22405; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:16:19 -0400 From: "Byron C. Howes" Message-Id: <9604101716.AA22405@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? To: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 13:16:19 EDT Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta>; from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 8:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko writes: > > I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on > ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'. > > Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom > having problems? > > Anyone else seeing this? I saw it for a very brief period last night/this morning, but the problem seems to have 'fixed itself.' I'm always a little amazed at some of the things that go wrong at netcom, but waiting them out is usually the best approach. --Byron bch@ga.unc.edu From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 13:58:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA07362 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.samurai.com (home-gw.samurai.com [198.53.146.183]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA07356 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ronin.interlog.com (ronin.samurai.com [205.207.28.10]) by home.samurai.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07411 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> X-Sender: bryanf@home.samurai.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:53:30 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bryan Fullerton Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BearHeart / Bill Weinman wrote: > > SmartMail is very smart. It splits my list up into managable >chunks and spawns multiple copies of sendmail to send it out. It >does preprocessing on the addresses to make sure that sendmail isn't >wasting its time. It handles bounces, and will even unsubscribe >addresses that bounce more than n times. Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all subscribers - 25 simultaneous sendmail process with 100 destination addresses each would be much better for my uses than 1 sendmail process with 2500 addresses. Wouldn't think it'd be all that hard, would it? Has someone already experimented with this? I'll play with it myself if no one has. Bryan -- bryanf@samurai.com Owner Samurai Consulting http://www.samurai.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:13:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA07808 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA07801 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA15502 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:03:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Bryan Fullerton cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Bryan Fullerton wrote: > Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop > up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination > addresses to each copy of sendmail? This is what bulk_mailer was written for: to use as the "sendmail" process in majordomo's "resend". -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:38:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA08408 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA08402 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19276; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:16:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604102116.QAA19276@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: bryanf@samurai.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:53:30 -0400" References: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:16:48 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BF" == Bryan Fullerton writes: BF> Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo BF> chop up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of BF> destination addresses to each copy of sendmail? It's easy; use bulk_mailer as recommended in the Majordomo FAQ. Future discussion on this topic should go to majordomo-users, not list-managers. --- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 14:44:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA04778 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA03278 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id KAA16590; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:00:16 -0700 Received: from imc.org(165.227.249.12) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma016507; Wed Apr 10 09:59:28 1996 Received: from [165.227.10.43] (cruzio43.cruzio.com [165.227.10.43]) by imc.org (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA25927 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199604091748.KAA08052@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 from Brent Chapman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:01:16 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Pangaea Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >My point being that THEY are >going to make money on the lists YOU run, typically on a volunteer basis, >and it is only fair that THEY should make the effort. This includes the >effort of adding 10 lines to their perl script so that they only send one >request for all the lists hosted at any given machine, to which you can >answer either YES TO ALL or YES TO THE FOLLOWING. Then it takes you just >as long to say yes or no. I agree with Eric here. They are doing something that will enrich them and their customers in some way: they should put the effort in. Fortunately, this is a case where we assume that the people doing the work probably competant; however, they will certainly be followed by competitors who are not. The precedents should be set: - If you want to subscribe to an open mailing list for a purpose other than a human to participate in the list (even if that means just lurking), you ask permission before you join, and you don't join unless permitted. - If you are going to join a slew of lists run by one person, you try figure out ways to induce the list manager to say yes to all. Both are reasonable for the information collectors and show respect for the list managers. This is similar to the "robot exclusion protocol" on the Web. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 15:28:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA10342 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA10320; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA04388; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:00:33 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing Lists need a home Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings everyone, I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please let me know. Thanks! Vince From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 16:59:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA15056 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hub.ucsb.edu (hub.ucsb.edu [128.111.24.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA15014 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dokoka (dokoka-27.ucsb.edu) by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA06999 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Wed, 10 Apr 96 16:42:54 PDT for list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Received: from dokoka.ucsb.edu by dokoka via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGIv2) id QAA13048; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:42:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199604102342.QAA13048@dokoka> To: Walter Morales Cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com, "SmartList Users" Subject: Re: I have a question Reply-To: "Alan K. Stebbens" In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:41:00 PDT. <2.2.16.19960410095410.0f677dc2@rip.psg.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:42:30 -0700 From: Alan Stebbens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > First time here.. > > I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users. > > There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the > > netiquette guide. > > Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Remove him from the "dist" and "accept" files, and then put his address in the "reject" file. This will keep him from subscribing. If the list has "foreign_submit" disabled (not set), then he will not be able to resubscribe and will not be able to submit. However, If foreign_submit is enabled, then he can still submit, even though he isn't subscribed. In this case, you'll have to create an additional recipe and have it invoked at the place where RC_LOCAL_SUBMIT_10 resides. It can be done something like this: a. In "rc.custom", define RC_LOCAL_SUBMIT_10=rc.local.s10 b. create the file "reject.submit" in the list directory and insert all "bad guy" addresses in it. c. Create "rc.local.s10" in the list directory. Put the following recipe in it (*THIS IS UNTESTED--BUT SHOULD WORK*): :0 w | formail -X"From " -xFrom: -xReply-To: -xSender: -xResent-From: \ -xResent-Reply-To: -xResent-Sender: -xReturn-Path: | \ multigram -b1 -m -l$submit_threshold -L$domain \ -x$listaddr -x$listreq reject.submit This will check the submitter address against a file of "bad guy" addresses, "reject.submit", and if a successful match (using "submit_threshold") is made, then "multigram" succeeds, causing the mail to "go away" (procmail thinks that the mail was delivered --to multigram). Actually, something like this might be useful to add to the SmartList "rc.submit" anyway. Good luck. Alan From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 18:12:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA21281 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roper.uwyo.edu (roper.uwyo.edu [129.72.60.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA21267 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plains.uwyo.edu (plains.uwyo.edu) by ROPER.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #14244) id <01I3DND1WGPC002NFH@ROPER.UWYO.EDU> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:53:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from PLAINS.UWYO.EDU by PLAINS.UWYO.EDU (PMDF V5.0-4 #14244) id <01I3DND5EK9600321Z@PLAINS.UWYO.EDU>; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:53:18 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 13:53:18 -0600 (MDT) From: "Andrew N. Edmond" Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? In-reply-to: <9604101716.AA22405@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> To: "Byron C. Howes" Cc: Jeff Wasilko , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Anyone else seeing this? > > I saw it for a very brief period last night/this morning, but the problem > seems to have 'fixed itself.' I'm always a little amazed at some of the > things that go wrong at netcom, but waiting them out is usually the best > approach. Same here - but only briefly last night... they seem to be ok now. Andy ............................................................................. . Andrew Edmond . Children of a future age, . .. edmond@plains.uwyo.edu ... Reading this indignant page, .. ... University of Wyoming ..... Know that in a former time, ... .... Botany Department ....... A path to God was thought a crime. .... .....................VISIONARY PLANTS LIST................................... -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzEWhNYAAAEEAN9Q4ABprWSGDKaY8OtrfFFcF6u5E6ua2ZNKgpJJcwU7rDHk nRRoDtvtovgO1yH5O9JvTgSgtxEWpnfLpl9N616jC77b+4C5dyZS+hIBUiCA4bwy hf2Hu3Z7QJasxEBVEdxAbvuUfuBDrsxBJ6SCw4ukAX66wa9RCO0m53dhSnKVAAUR tClBbmRyZXcgTi4gRWRtb25kIDxlZG1vbmRAcGxhaW5zLnV3eW8uZWR1PokAlAMF EDEWh3LtJud3YUpylQEBZVcD926EzvXLmL7hfeM/LNtgWah67m/g+lR87IxulcJ+ 4peUHUKUgBTglIzlSPURTHpEDQKc3wF2o1ezSdzcFjkdQex8wGZYMsCf6waREX2p s5LB7FdTGF4aciCfvQX5shptoLljCd3UPF56BQTS0raqh+WlFjV3w5wRX4ZfJSCR 4Io= =PqOx -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 18:55:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA25228 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amisk.cs.ualberta.ca (amisk.cs.ualberta.ca [129.128.13.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA25213 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:36:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gwynne.cs.ualberta.ca by amisk.cs.ualberta.ca id <138536-1>; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:33:50 -0600 Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 19:32:22 -0600 (MDT) In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Apr 10, 96 08:26:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <96Apr10.193350-0600_mdt.138536-1+217@amisk.cs.ualberta.ca> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko writes: > I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on > ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'. > > Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom > having problems? > > Anyone else seeing this? Yeah, I got a bunch of these today, too (for 13 people from ix.netcom.com on one list, and a few more on other lists.) I just telnetted to ix.netcom.com's SMTP port and tried to VRFY some of these people, and it seems to be working again. (no more "user unknown"s.) Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://ugweb.cs.ualberta.ca/~gerald/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 20:56:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA07702 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA07685 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 20:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA09175; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:39:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199604110339.WAA09175@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: I have a question To: walter@rip.psg.com (Walter Morales) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:39:02 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Walter Morales said... | |> I run a mailing list that has about 1500 users. |> There is a user in Brazil, that has broken almost every rule in the |> netiquette guide. Since you have asked the user, repeatedly, to behave, and they have not, I see no problem in removal. I would write out a full explanation ahead of time (get a couple of others to read it, too), and send it to the user along with a brief personal note that you are removing them. Send the explanation to the list, and send it to anyone he tries to get to harass you. If he or anyone else harasses you, just set up a filter to bounce their mail right back to them. -Miles From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 21:46:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA11196 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA11174 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA08366; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:14:51 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02167; Wed, 10 Apr 96 21:14:49 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9604110414.AA02167@siesta> Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList To: bryanf@samurai.com (Bryan Fullerton) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> from "Bryan Fullerton" at Apr 10, 96 04:53:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bryan Fullerton writes: > Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop > up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination > addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some > larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all > subscribers - 25 simultaneous sendmail process with 100 destination > addresses each would be much better for my uses than 1 sendmail process with > 2500 addresses. Wouldn't think it'd be all that hard, would it? Has > someone already experimented with this? I'll play with it myself if no one has. Get bulk_mailer (the location is in the faq). It does just that, as well as sorting by domain, so all messages for a specific domain usually end up in one envelope, meaning that you get just one bounce back. Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 10 22:21:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA13070 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA13062 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id VAA04324; Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:33:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:33:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? To: Jeff Wasilko cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9604101526.AA26547@siesta> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff: On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > Did all of my subscribers forget to pay their bills, or is netcom > having problems? Netcom is undergoing one of its periodic service upgrades. In theory, this means that service at netcom will improve. In practice, what happens is that service deteriorates to a minimal acceptable level, where it stabilizes, until the next go round of service "improvements". << I don't consider no mail delivery to be minimal-acceptable, but maybe Garrison does. >> > Anyone else seeing this? It started sometime between Midnight and 6.00 AM this morning. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 01:36:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA08426 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from typhoon.dial.pipex.net (typhoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.46]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA08404 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tadpole.intertrader.com by typhoon.dial.pipex.net (8.7.4/) id JAA24489; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:21:17 +0100 (BST) Received: by tadpole.intertrader.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0u7HdT-0004GsC; Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:21 BST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:21 BST From: Rachel Willmer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: how to clean up after spam? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've just discovered that someone for whom I had set up a mail alias under one of my domains has been using it to send out spam to a large number of mailing lists. The mail alias was used to forward mail from this domain to his local ISP mail name. I've told him spam is not acceptable, of course, and removed the mail alias, but is there anything else I need to do? I don't know whether this guy has done enough that someone would go to the trouble of mail bombing him, but if he has, is there anything I can do to prepare for it? Thanks for any suggestions Rachel -- Intertrader Ltd - Internet Services for Business Internet Services: Web Design, Online Databases, Online Commerce, etc. Email rachel@intertrader.com or visit us at http://www.intertrader.com/ Mail autoresponders: info@intertrader.com, prices@intertrader.com Subscribe to UK Internet Professionals Discussion List send a message to uk-net-request@intertrader.com containing the text "subscribe uk-net" From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 06:02:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA29621 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA29603 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 05:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA03399 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:33:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199604111233.HAA03399@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList (really bulk_mailer) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:33:16 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk bulk_mailer is rather nice, as long as your machine can handle it. Remember it's going to be forking off some number of copies of sendmail for each incoming message. It's not uncommon for the load on the machine I have it installed on to go from 0.5 to 19 rather quickly, stay there for about a half hour, then fall to the norm again. This makes it difficult for incoming mail to arrive after someone hits the big list with a message. Setting it to queue the message only and not attempt delivery makes it better, but then you loose some of the advantage of pushing the message out to everyone as fast as possible as it now has to wait for queue runs. Yes, bulk_mailer makes things better, but it, nor other suggestions of splitting a list into pieces is a total win. There are drawbacks to be aware of. -_Gene From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 07:07:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA02998 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.allware.com (zot.allware.com [204.176.136.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA02976; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zot.allware.com by zot.allware.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #7) id m0u7MIU-0001BwC; Thu, 11 Apr 96 09:20 EDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:20:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Jack Downing To: Veggy Vinny cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Vince; Sure thing -- we do this type of thing all the time. If you would like to follow-up, please give me a call or e-mail, at (301) 731-8800. Jack S. Downing AllWare Internet, Inc. Lanham, MD 20706 (301) 731-8800 jdowning@allware.com On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > Greetings everyone, > > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please > let me know. Thanks! > > Vince > > From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 07:17:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA02535 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from info.aphis.usda.gov (info.aphis.usda.gov [199.132.13.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA02487; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 06:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kreding@localhost) by info.aphis.usda.gov (8.6.12/8.6.9) id JAA20773; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:23:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:23:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Reding To: Veggy Vinny cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What is the nature of the list? If these keep going the way they are with one of my lists, I may be looking for a home for it also. Mine is for BSE (Mad Cow Disease). Keith USDA On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > Greetings everyone, > > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please > let me know. Thanks! > > Vince > --------------------------- Keith Reding, Ph.D. Biotechnologist kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov APHIS Mailing List Manager (301) 734-8365 http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ -------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 10:08:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA14752 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maude.state.net (NS.STATE.NET [204.75.238.240]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA14721; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from judith.state.net (judith.state.net [204.75.238.239]) by maude.state.net (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id LAA13374; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:14:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: by judith.state.net; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/25Mar96-1145PM) id AA02973; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:12:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:12:36 -0500 (CDT) From: "Steven L. Camp" Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home To: Veggy Vinny Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > Greetings everyone, > > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please > let me know. Thanks! We provide commercial mailing list support. You can EMail us at sales@state.net or call (612)225-1110 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 10:36:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA19720 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA19714 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA29882 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:24:57 +0100 From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:14 GMT Message-Id: References: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com>, Bryan Fullerton wrote: >Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop >up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination >addresses to each copy of sendmail? I did something like this as a stop gap before completely re-writing my list manager to make it easier on resources; it used to feed a load of addresses to sendmail, which then did its usual tricks of looking stuff up. In the end I wrote a simple script, which takes the name of a config file, so that instead of calling something like |/usr/lib/sendmail list-outbound you can call |mailchat list The address list is read in and matched to an optional list of domains, list .uk, .com, aol.com and so on. Each listed domain, or each group of 100 addresses results in a connection to the smtp port on a specified host for the mail transaction. This isn't perfect, but it did cut down on the load, and I have a copy lying around for anyone who wants to try it. (And I'm aware that I still have mail outstanding from the last person who asked me for bits of my list code; been too busy with some other stuff to reply to much mail lately). Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 12:10:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA26718 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA26658 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfrench (ip-pdx02-06.teleport.com [206.163.120.70]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA11658 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604111742.KAA11658@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I also had 8 subscribers and 1 approval for subscription show up as "user unknown" from netcom. Does anyone know why this happened? I sent a message to postmaster@ix.netcom.com regarding this but as of yet have received nothing. Rae French rfrench@teleport.com From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 17:01:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA27160 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA27124; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05152; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:04:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:04:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: Jack Downing cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Jack Downing wrote: Hi Jack, > Sure thing -- we do this type of thing all the time. If you would like > to follow-up, please give me a call or e-mail, at (301) 731-8800. Would this cost anything since these lists used to be hosted for free as it is provided to the net for free information sharing. Cheers, -Vince- richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU - vince@COSC.GOV - vince@cygnus.sy.yale.edu GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Oakland, California USA Computing Networking Operations - Advisory Council Member Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin > On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out > > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please > > let me know. Thanks! > > > > Vince > > > > > From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 17:09:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA27087 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA27050; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from richardc@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA05087; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:03:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Veggy Vinny To: Keith Reding cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 11 Apr 1996, Keith Reding wrote: > What is the nature of the list? If these keep going the way they are > with one of my lists, I may be looking for a home for it also. > > Mine is for BSE (Mad Cow Disease). It's for the support of the Gravis UltraSound card and also a few Hong Kong singer fan club lists... Hope you can help. Cheers, -Vince- richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU - vince@COSC.GOV - vince@cygnus.sy.yale.edu GUS Mailing Lists Admin - http://www.COSC.GOV/~vince UC Berkeley AstroPhysics - Electrical Engineering (Honorary B.S.) Chabot Observatory & Science Center - Oakland, California USA Computing Networking Operations - Advisory Council Member Running FreeBSD - Real UN*X for Free! Linda Wong/Vivian Chow/Hacken Lee/Danny Chan/Priscilla Chan Fan Club Mailing Lists Admin > On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Veggy Vinny wrote: > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > I am running a few mailing lists and was wondering if anyone out > > there would be able to run it on their machine under majordomo? Please > > let me know. Thanks! > > > > Vince > > > > --------------------------- > Keith Reding, Ph.D. > Biotechnologist > kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov > APHIS Mailing List Manager > (301) 734-8365 > http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ > -------------------------- > From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 19:49:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA06722 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA06716; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id UAA11566; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:21:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199604120121.UAA11566@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Mailing Lists need a home To: kreding@info.aphis.usda.gov (Keith Reding) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 20:21:21 -0500 (CDT) Cc: richardc@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Keith Reding" at Apr 11, 96 09:23:17 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We run majordomo, and have very reasonable (we feel 8^) fees. Small, low volume lists are only $25/year. If you want further information, contact me via email, or Jon Schober at 1-512-451-5531. -Miles --------------------------------------------------- Miles O'Neal President meo@schoneal.com Schober O'Neal, Inc. 1011 Stobaugh St, Suite A / Austin, TX / 78757-1529 1-512-451-5531 (v) (f) 1-512-451-0513 http://www.schoneal.com/ From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:07:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA10579 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA10573 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16891; Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:31:49 PDT Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 11 Apr 96 19:31:49 PDT Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25649; Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:31:32 PDT Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:31:32 PDT From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9604120231.AA25649@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, jeffw@triple-i.com Subject: Re: mega-bounces from ix.netcom.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm seeing all list subscribes that have accounts on > ix.netcom.com bouncing back as 'user unknown'. One of the cgi scripts I've inherited has the following: $addr =~ tr/A-Z/a-z/; ($user,$host) = $addr =~ /(.*)\@(.*)/; $host = "netcom.com" if $host =~ /ix.netcom.com$/; $host = "prodigy.com" if $host =~ /prodigy.com$/; $host = "aol.com" if $host =~ /aol.com$/; The "ix.netcom.com" hosts are ppp hosts. -Joe From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:10:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA02434 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA02101 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id PAA21670; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:57:28 -0700 Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org(198.70.54.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma021666; Thu Apr 11 15:56:42 1996 Received: by pcusa01.ecunet.org id ca02293; 11 Apr 96 18:34 EDT Subject: Re: Majordomo vs. SmartList To: Bryan Fullerton Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960410205330.00738dd0@home.samurai.com> from "Bryan Fullerton" at Apr 10, 96 04:53:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9604111622.aa26063@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Bryan Fullerton: > > Something I've wondered about - how hard would it be to make Majordomo chop > up a list and only feed 100 or some definable number of destination > addresses to each copy of sendmail? One of the big problems with some > larger lists I host (2500+ subscribers) is the amount of time to send to all Majordomo (actually resend) only takes the note and drops it off to sendmail. With our mailer (mmdf) we can set it up so it pre-sorts the address list, and we can control the number of processes actually handling the mail. Can't sendmail do that? -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 20:13:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA08025 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA03982 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id NAA20663; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:20:07 -0700 Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu(128.164.9.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma020658; Thu Apr 11 13:19:30 1996 Received: from felix.seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA16343 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by felix.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA29499 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA16342; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:34 -0400 Message-Id: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: About the magazine spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm unfortunately the systems administrator who currently takes care of the email gateway at GWU, one of the sources of the three rounds of magazine spam this year. I'm not really a hard-core email person, but I've taken on that role since our email guy left in January (about the time this started). My apologies for any inconvenience this has caused people on the list. If we could stop it, we would. It was suggested to me by a member of the list that I post here and ask for help stopping the spam. I've read the archives for the past couple of months and have an idea of what's been going on on the list. We have cut off source sites, at least temporarily. Since the spammer's attacked us from a different site each time, blocking individual sites doesn't seem to be effective in the long term. He also likes to hit on the weekend so that he can get more email out before he's caught. Incidently, I had trouble getting tcpd to work with sendmail. I've been using a route statement to prevent accepting email from sites that give us problems. Unfortunately, the damage is done by the time I do this. I noticed discussion in March of changing the SMTP standard. I'm kind of frustrated at how SMTP servers "work" myself. In addition to the spam, we also were subjected to being an MX backup site for another organization without our permission. I won't bother to name them. They turned off their machines for a move and their email (at least 5 times the volume of ours) suddenly moved to our machine. Calling them up, I got a cavalier "Oh, it will stop when the name service times out in a few hours". But their useless sysadmin forgot they had backup name service that didn't expire for 41 DAYS. Finally got someone at the backup site to pull the name service records, but that took days. Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so dependent upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able to (at minimum) say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no gwu.edu in the To line, reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he ever starts forging our addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it would have saved me a LOT of headaches and late nights responding to email complaints over the past few months. I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester. I also had another package recommended to me which seems to have that capability, but it seems to run only on DEC equipment so it's not a possibility for us. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 11 22:10:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA22046 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hub.ucsb.edu (hub.ucsb.edu [128.111.24.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA22021 for ; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dokoka (dokoka-27.ucsb.edu) by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA02210 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Thu, 11 Apr 96 21:57:26 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from dokoka.ucsb.edu by dokoka via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGIv2) id VAA23255; Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:57:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199604120457.VAA23255@dokoka> To: Sheryl Coppenger Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, "Procmail Users" Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Reply-To: "Alan K. Stebbens" In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 PDT. <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:57:20 -0700 From: Alan Stebbens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it > seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so > dependent upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able > to (at minimum) say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no > gwu.edu in the To line, reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he > ever starts forging our addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it > would have saved me a LOT of headaches and late nights responding to > email complaints over the past few months. It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough. Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which filter the mail through programmable filters. In either case, if you obtain "procmail" you will be able to implement either pre-delivery filtering or in-delivery filtering, as desired. Having obtained procmail, you can then use SmartList (which is a mailing list implementation based on procmail recipe files, and a couple of binaries). SmartList gives you control over who can see the lists, who can subscribe, and who can submit. If you peruse the procmail archives, you'll see many solutions for problems similar to yours. The procmail man pages describe how to modify the sendmail rules (in sendmail.cf) such that a pre-delivery filtering can be accomplished. In addition, procmail can be used as the "Mlocal" (the local delivery) program, replacing the vendor-supplied one. With or without procmail as the "Mlocal" program, personal or system-wide mail filter can be accomplished with procmail as a "pipe" filter (ie: "|procmail -m /etc/procmailrcs/register"). This gives you all the "hooks" you need to be able to detect "bad" addresses and throw any mail from them away, or cause bounce-backs, or whatever action you choose to take. For example, suppose the "bad guy" address who has been spamming you uses the subject "free subscriptions", and typically originates from a fictious sender of "KrazyKevin". A very simple filter to throw away mail matching this description might be: :0 * ^(From|Sender): *KrazyKevin * ^Subject:.*free subscriptions /dev/null Any mail which gets past this filter, would then be delivered as usual. If you wish to bounce rejected mail back with a message: :0 * ^(From|Sender): *KrazyKevin * ^Subject:.*free subscriptions { :0 # avoid loops * ^X-Loop: antispam /dev/null SUBJ=`formail -zX'Subject:'` :0 fh # replace the headers | formail -rt -I"Subject: Re: $SUBJECT" -I"X-Loop: antispam" :0 fb # replace the body | echo "Sorry, we aren't accepting mail from you regarding" ;\ echo "this subject for the time being." :0 # send it back & drop the mail ! -oi -t } The SmartList mailing list has the ability to insert site-local recipes, such as the one above, at various processing points. I have made available a suite of recipe files to ease or guide the development of personal mail filters based on procmail. In addition, you can get my enhancements to SmartList which make remote list management easier. Both libraries are available from my home "mail" page: http://www.engineering.ucsb.edu/~aks/mail or by sending me an email with the subject of "send procmail library" or "send smartlist library". Good luck. Alan From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 03:08:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA22058 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shoreside.com (shoreside.com [206.40.34.81]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA22007 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlick@localhost) by shoreside.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id CAA07992; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 02:41:53 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: aks@dokoka.ucsb.edu Subject: Re: About the magazine spam In-Reply-To: <199604120801.BAA10152@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello again, Alan. > From: Alan Stebbens > It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is > the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough. > > Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its > configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which > filter the mail through programmable filters. Well, this works in many cases, but not all. In the gwu.edu case, their sendmail is being used as a mail relay only. Neither the source nor the target address is known ahead of time, and neither is local. If they were, then yes it is just a matter of talking sendmail into dealing with it. Your advice is very valuable to most list admins, however, the issues brought up are not list issues exactly, but go back to the deficiencies in the SMTP standard which were discussed recently. It is peripherally a list manager's issue though in the sense that lists were the main target of the spams sent through gwu.edu, and many of us are also general network/system/security admins so that these issues are also of interest. But this also brings up another point in that sendmail is very flexible at sorting and routing and making decisions in regards to the target address. However, it is very poor on making decisions on the source mail address or where it received the mail from. If the message is addressed to a network address, it never gets down to a point where procmail could filter. And if you don't know what the target is going to be, you can't put in specific rewrites to get it out to an alias. To deal with this you need to modify the sendmail source to add stuff to checkcompat() and/or add in tcp wrappers. You could also use installed host routes pointing to nowhere but this is kinda messy. The big problem that everyone has been grumbling quietly about is that sendmail will happily accept mail from *anyone* on the network addressed to *anyone* outside your system and sendmail will go deliver it. There is no checking to say "am I really supposed to accept mail from someone at foo.com destined for bar.edu when I don't know either of these guys?" This promiscuity is manifesting itself more and more in the following ways: User gets Netscape and tells it that its SMTP server is "yourcompany.com" because their friend at yourcompany has it set up that way and had helpfully given out copies of his config files. yourcompany happily accepts the mail and delivers it to whereever. It works so the user is never the wiser that it is "wrong". The sysadmin at yourcompany doesn't notice until he gets a stange bounce for an address he's never heard of. The sysadmin discovers that a couple dozen other people also have their Netscape set up the same way. After trying to get them to reconfigure and noticing that most of them haven't done anything, he finally finds the sendmail tcp wrappers patches in Usenet and effectively makes the errant users cease to exist. Kevin Spamzits has a few hundred thousand messages he wants to deliver, he saves his 28.8kbps modem the effort and dumps the messages on seas.dept.foo.edu to deliver. seas happily accepts the messages and then takes on the brunt of the work in delivering them. The sysadmin of seas implements some stopgap measures to stop it, but is always one step behind since the source keeps changing. Randy Mango has been having a running argument on a mailing list with another member, Buzz Turner. One day he logs in to find he has been unsubscribed by himself. The list manager examines the unsubscribe request and finds it was inserted at a mail server at a site closely associated with Buzz, but also with another list member and several non-related accounts. However, the headers point only to a hostname so nobody knows for sure if it was Buzz, or someone setting him up. These are three real actual examples of what is being griped about. I'd be extremely happy if I could configure sendmail in some way such that if it receives a network messages, it is marked as "dirty" until it is evaluated as coming from a site we relay from, or it is evaluated as going to a site we relay to, or it goes through a local address expansion at which point it is marked clean. If a "dirty" message is then scheduled to go out over a network relay, then something is wrong and it should be punted. I'd be ecstatic if this were to make it into the sendmail distribution and therefore implemented at many sites, adopted by vendors (eventually), etc. The above formula should cover all legitimate uses. Mailing lists will still work even for raw lists, since the local address expansion would cause the message to be marked clean. Most sites can define legitimate hosts or domains or IPs they will relay to/from. If there are other problem areas, I'm sure they can be worked in. Now, as was concluded in the March discussion, this goes against some of the standards and also the good old Internet spirit. However, standards are not static; we can change them if the reasons are good enough. I believe that this change is very important to the sites which have been victim of this problem. I think that the problem will only grow as more and more people get on the net and more and more newbies who don't know any better and opportunistic spammers take advantage of these problems. Just these few little changes would cut down on a lot of forged mail and make it easier to track the remainder. And about that Internet spirit thing, well, it's a faint ghost of what it once was, and I fear the last of it is already slipping away. -- James Lick -- jlick@tcp.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:03:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA04878 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA04872 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brad@localhost) by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/AOL-0.0.2) id MAA10448; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:54:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:54:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: Sheryl Coppenger "About the magazine spam" (Apr 11, 4:22pm) References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Sheryl Coppenger Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote: > I noticed discussion in March of changing the SMTP standard. I'm kind of > frustrated at how SMTP servers "work" myself. In addition to the spam, > we also were subjected to being an MX backup site for another organization > without our permission. I won't bother to name them. They turned off > their machines for a move and their email (at least 5 times the volume of > ours) suddenly moved to our machine. Calling them up, I got a cavalier > "Oh, it will stop when the name service times out in a few hours". But > their useless sysadmin forgot they had backup name service that > didn't expire for 41 DAYS. Finally got someone at the backup site to > pull the name service records, but that took days. Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to use you as an unadvertised backup MX. Sendmail re-write rules to do this sort of stuff are fairly easy, and I've done them not only at my previous employer but also here. I'll be documenting better the kinds of things you can do and making that available in the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. Make sure you also tell them that you'll call the InterNIC and have their domain registration pulled if they don't act *immediately*. > Anyway, with the Internet changing as quickly as it is these days, it > seems to me foolish to have so ubiquitous an MTA as sendmail so dependent > upon "the kindness of strangers". I would love to be able to (at minimum) > say "if there's no gwu.edu in the From line and no gwu.edu in the To line, > reject it". That won't stop KrazyKevin if he ever starts forging our > addresses, but if sendmail had that feature it would have saved me a > LOT of headaches and late nights responding to email complaints over > the past few months. This is a bit harder to do. Basically, the only place in all of sendmail that you have access to both the sender and recipient names is in the check_compat() routine. If you read the sendmail documentation or the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales, they give you skeletons of how you could refuse to be a mail relay for anyone. Unfortunately, those skeletons really need to be fleshed out. I've heard of at least one project on the 'net for doing something like that and making it available to the readers of comp.mail.sendmail, but I don't have any details. > I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but > can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was > something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to > take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester. I also > had another package recommended to me which seems to have that capability, > but it seems to run only on DEC equipment so it's not a possibility for us. Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C. Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and support those with rare C source-level changes. -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:03:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA01165 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA00924 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id IAA25168; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:56:12 -0700 Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu(128.164.9.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma025159; Fri Apr 12 08:55:56 1996 Received: from felix.seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA01401 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by felix.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA16683 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:00:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA06084; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:00:16 -0400 Message-Id: <9604121600.AA06084@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: About the magazine spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:00:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is > the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough. > > Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its > configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which > filter the mail through programmable filters. > > In either case, if you obtain "procmail" you will be able to implement > either pre-delivery filtering or in-delivery filtering, as desired. > > Having obtained procmail, you can then use SmartList (which is a mailing > list implementation based on procmail recipe files, and a couple of > binaries). SmartList gives you control over who can see the lists, who > can subscribe, and who can submit. If you peruse the procmail archives, > you'll see many solutions for problems similar to yours. The technical part about how this solution doesn't really work and is appropriate for list management rather than an email gateway was handled in another followup so I'll leave that be. Even if this did the job technically I'd be concerned because I'd be examining subject lines and rejecting for content. The legal aspects are rather untested and still to be determined, but the laws that have been passed seem to leave systems administrators in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. If I don't examine content I *may* be in trouble for passing on things people don't want to get. If I do examine and reject for content I'm almost certainly more liable because it somehow implies a promise. If the next spam changes a couple of letters and slips through the filter I may be liable. There are a couple of articles in this month's ";login:" magazine about that. It's probably not a concern for list managers, but it's probably in my interests to try and posture as a common carrier although it's by no means obvious whether ISPs can claim that. If I could simply reject mail that tried to use me as a relay, although it might be a breech of SMTP standard I doubt that it would get me sued. I could be wrong. BTW, does anybody but me see a little irony in saying that sendmail is infinitely configurable, then saying in the same breath that I need to get two more packages to configure it? I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a UNIX guru back in the 80s when I first started using UNIX. He asked how it was going and I said it was OK but UNIX didn't seem to be very intuitive compared to some other operating systems I'd worked on. He said, "I thought that too when I first started using it, but after 6 or 7 years it seems pretty intuitive". The worst part is, he wasn't kidding. :-) I'm not putting the poster down, I do appreciate suggestions and I know that the reality of doing computer work is you do have to cobble a lot of things together sometimes to get a solution. Using procmail and smartmail does seem to work well for a lot of people in a lot of situations. I just don't think this is one of them. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 10:18:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA06582 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA06575 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brad@localhost) by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/AOL-0.0.2) id NAA10477; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:03:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604121303.ZM10475@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:03:39 -0400 In-Reply-To: James Lick "Re: About the magazine spam" (Apr 12, 2:41am) References: Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: James Lick Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Cc: aks@dokoka.ucsb.edu, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Apr 12, 2:41am, James Lick wrote: > These are three real actual examples of what is being griped about. I'd > be extremely happy if I could configure sendmail in some way such that if > it receives a network messages, it is marked as "dirty" until it is > evaluated as coming from a site we relay from, or it is evaluated as going > to a site we relay to, or it goes through a local address expansion at > which point it is marked clean. There's another way to fix the list-managers part of this problem. Once you're subscribed, require that unsubscribe requests come in cryptographically signed (maybe only if the original request was cryptographically signed). For those "insecure" subscriptions, give the user a password that they can change (and hopefully remember), but that have to be used any time they want to change their subscription status on the list (i.e., they could probably change from digest mode to reflector mode without requiring the password, but setting "NOMAIL" would require the password). As for the relay problem, I think the key is to be able to set a database that defines domains that you choose to relay to and/or from (or choose not to relay to and/or from, as the case may be), and then build into check_compat() the necessary robust code to enforce those rules. Combine these, and I think you deal with the majority of the spam and velveeta generated today. Then you get to have fun with junkmail and people who forge bogus headers so that they don't ever have to worry about dealing with any of their bounces or the expensive job of cleaning up their mailing list. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMW6MwiG1aeLjjM7xAQFyAAgAiBemNc6xiFrqr+RTJ+Np6tdNULnJx7d7 EpRFT7oN50sHV5E0uj0Dn3nEWBHVMykyn1VxHAn0/cM1O6R18nHMR6z8HqF59V48 erH4lk/hiVB31Loip0EdpeaBlQr9Ud48yQ7c62+hjhgo1984q/HRsvZWiRLcXPvE i4DtXYAsR1OXpJYJAR4CJTbI4Ui79cYUjYmJ1f3uvboLaqT1RmFL2gcEta6Tg2YG v39syj7+yoU94GozpBRdSzNpcLftLZb2QoHiKIc/A5jqw6jzQ0yEr+49iXtRBtBa XP59dmX45oqE0uT+k2ZO/VOEI99TJiDulSvw0ayF2wGTj4P5M7BQPQ== =Eapg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:20:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA07197 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA01095 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id HAA24760; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:52:01 -0700 Received: from desiree.teleport.com(192.108.254.21) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024755; Fri Apr 12 07:51:46 1996 Received: from rfrench (ip-pdx07-53.teleport.com [206.163.121.181]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA04491 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604121456.HAA04491@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: Subscriber not here Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am getting messages regarding this subscriber at AOL who has a full mailbox. >The mail you sent could not be delivered to: >552 arlw@aol.com has a full mailbox You all probably know about AOL's message regarding full mailboxes. When we receive these messages there is no way to reach the person/subscriber and the only thing to do is unsubscribe them. But this person/subscriber is _not_ subscribed to my mailing list. Is there anything I can do to get this message to stop coming to me? Rae French rfrench@teleport.com From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:21:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA07929 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CAUSE (cause.Colorado.EDU [198.59.61.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA07922 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CAUSE.COLORADO.EDU by CAUSE.COLORADO.EDU (PMDF V4.3-7 #12962) id <01I3G7GB1K560003H8@CAUSE.COLORADO.EDU>; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:06 MDT Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:50:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "Karen McBride, CAUSE" Subject: info on list To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I3G7GB643W0003H8@CAUSE.COLORADO.EDU> X-Envelope-to: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: in%"list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how do I get information about this list? From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:21:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA07216 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA02226 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id FAA23865; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 05:48:41 -0700 Received: from aspensys.aspensys.com(198.77.70.104) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma023857; Fri Apr 12 05:47:36 1996 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com (smtpgate.aspensys.com) by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA00295; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 08:51:42 +0500 Received: from ccMail by smtpinet.aspensys.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA829324381; Fri, 12 Apr 96 08:49:43 EST Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 08:49:43 EST From: "Jim Meritt" Message-Id: <9603128293.AA829324381@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu, "Alan K. Stebbens" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, procmail@informatik.rwth-aachen.de Subject: sendmail (was Re[2]: About the magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Most of them wrong..... :-( Jim Meritt ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Author: "Alan K. Stebbens" at SMTPINET Date: 4/12/96 5:42 AM It is not sendmail which is relying on the kindness of strangers, it is the system manager who has failed to configure it carefully enough. Sendmail is infinitely configurable, either by modifying its configuration rules, or by makeing the target addresses be aliases which filter the mail through programmable filters. From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 11:21:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA08076 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA01572 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id GAA24317; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 06:39:51 -0700 Received: from hera.cuci.nl(194.183.100.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024294; Fri Apr 12 06:39:00 1996 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.5/BuGless_1.02) id PAA06725 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:44:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199604121344.PAA06725@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 15:44:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: James Lick's message as of 1996 Apr 12 Fri 2:41. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk James Lick wrote: >But this also brings up another point in that sendmail is very flexible at >sorting and routing and making decisions in regards to the target address. >However, it is very poor on making decisions on the source mail address or >where it received the mail from. If the message is addressed to a network >address, it never gets down to a point where procmail could filter. And Well, it could, but it would take an extra route through a procmail filter and then back into sendmail. >if you don't know what the target is going to be, you can't put in >specific rewrites to get it out to an alias. To deal with this you need >to modify the sendmail source to add stuff to checkcompat() and/or add in No. Not quite. Actually, sendmail already *is* capable of discerning based on sender addresses (and/or combined sender/recipient decisions). It just takes some sendmail.cf rules (no sendmail source modifications required). I'm currently working something out to that effect. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Be braver. You cannot cross a chasm in two small jumps. From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:11:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA12506 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA12490 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06479; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:47:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604121847.NAA06479@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: rfrench@teleport.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subscriber not here Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 12 Apr 1996 07:56:17 -0700 (PDT)" References: <199604121456.HAA04491@desiree.teleport.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 13:47:41 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "RF" == Rae French writes: RF> But this person/subscriber is _not_ subscribed to my mailing list. Is RF> there anything I can do to get this message to stop coming to me? Look through the Received: headers in the message that AOL bounced. (I sure wish they'd use the MIME bounce formats.) These tell you where the message went before it got to AOL. If it didn't go straight from you to AOL, someone's set up a .forward file or the like and is redirecting the mail. Find all users on your list from each machine between you and AOL and send them a short test message with their username somewhere in the Subject:. Delete the user that bounces. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:19:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA13496 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA13472 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07804; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:08:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604121908.OAA07804@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: Sheryl Coppenger cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: About the magazine spam In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Apr 1996 16:22:33 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:08:19 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sheryl asked for help in configuring Sendmail to close off the loopholes that Krazy Kevin uses to inject forged mail, through her system, out to the rest of the Internet. Alan Stebbens suggested that the solution is not in Sendmail but rather in the "procmail" local delivery agent. The problem is that his solution only works on the final delivery machine. Meanwhile the message has been accepted somewhere, forwarded elsewhere, passing through intermediate systems, taking up your processor time, disk space, etc. Sheryl is trying to cut it off at the source, have the SMTP listener reject transactions during the dialog. The message is not accepted, not stored in your queue, not passed on to anywhere else. She can save the rest of us a lot of work by cutting Krazy Kevin's messages off at the source (until he moves on to a new victim server next week, of course :-). I have been experimenting with this a bit lately, I've just taken suggestions I found on Usenet newsgroups about how to reject specific strings in MAIL FROM or RCPT TO fields, which is very easy now using Sendmail v8.7.X m4 macros. That is, for a string "XXX" that I know in advance, I can have Sendmail refuse to even allow the incoming SMTP transaction, if the message is either RCPT TO "XXX" or MAIL FROM "XXX" in the SMTP dialogue. (note that this only concerns the envelope fields in the SMTP dialogue, and does NOT involve the HEADERS of the message at all) What's a bit harder, what Sheryl wants to do, is reject any message EXCEPT those containing her specific known string "gwu.edu" in the MAIL FROM and/or RCPT TO. I'll be doing some more Sendmail experimenting and if I come up with a very simple prescription, I'll get back to you. Chris Koenigsberg U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services Postmaster ckk@uchicago.edu (also postmaster@uchicago.edu) Meanwhile, to reject mail CONTAINING a specific known string, here's a simple sequence to add to the end of your m4 macro that you generate your sendmail.cf from. Create the file "/etc/sendmail.reject-strings" (or name it whatever you want, and put the name in the "FK" line) and fill it with the specific strings that you want to reject. Then add this to the end of your m4 macro: LOCAL_CONFIG FK/etc/sendmail.unconfigured-addresses LOCAL_RULE_0 R$*$=K$* $#error$@77$:Mail to and from this address is not accepted by this server. -------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:33:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA12706 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu (franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA12700 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA04717 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by felix.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA18570 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:56:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA12472; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:56:49 -0400 Message-Id: <9604121856.AA12472@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: About the magazine spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:56:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and > bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to > use you as an unadvertised backup MX. > > Sendmail re-write rules to do this sort of stuff are fairly easy, > and I've done them not only at my previous employer but also here. > I'll be documenting better the kinds of things you can do and making > that available in the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. Great. It's not something I need right now, but I look forward to seeing it. As I said in the first email, I'm not by training or inclination an email person. I'm filling in for a person who took another job (who we haven't been able to replace yet). Unfortunately the work I already was doing did not go away when I took over his tasks. I have the Nutshell Sendmail book and though I've spent some time with it, it's going to take me quite a while to deal with the learning curve and to be able to deal with an 800-page book (plus the RFC and sendmail docs, let alone the code). > This is a bit harder to do. Basically, the only place in all of > sendmail that you have access to both the sender and recipient names > is in the check_compat() routine. If you read the sendmail > documentation or the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales, they give you > skeletons of how you could refuse to be a mail relay for anyone. > Unfortunately, those skeletons really need to be fleshed out. I've > heard of at least one project on the 'net for doing something like > that and making it available to the readers of comp.mail.sendmail, but > I don't have any details. Thanks for the pointer to checkcompat(). I was able to look it up in the Nutshell book. That's exactly the kind of specific info I've been looking for for a couple of months. Instead I've generally been getting vague "you can do anything in sendmail" responses and then nothing when I ask for details. Or I get a flat "you can't get there from here". I've been kind of surprised by this because in the 5 years I've been on the 'net I've often received (and given) detailed "this is exactly how I did it" responses to folks. I've become rather frustrated because of this difference in the sendmail area. Maybe it's something in the sendmail gestalt, maybe I've just had bad luck with when and whom I've asked. Even a pointer to something I can look up in an index in the Nutshell book at least gives me something to work with and I'm grateful. I probably missed it while going through the book because I had "relay" in my mind and "gateway" didn't key for me. [...] > Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be > able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to > most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C. > Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and > support those with rare C source-level changes. > I can program in C. I also figured that being a beta tester for qmail would involve C programming but apparently what I want already is defined in the code and maybe it's worthwhile to look at a new approach (similar to the way we've migrated from Bnews to Cnews to INN over the years on the news server). If I can avoid it I prefer not to hack on packages which are large, important to our mission and poorly understood by me. :-) My sendmail debugging skills are pretty minimal at this point. Since it doesn't look like we're going to be filling the empty position any time soon I have the feeling I will be developing them when the semester ends in a few weeks and I'm no longer trying to do 12 hours a week of classes in addition to the full-time job. I had already decided I was probably going to have to install the latest sendmail on my workstation this summer and just bang on it until I have some confidence in how it works. That still looks like the plan, I'll just have to add a checkcompat routine to my TO DO list for when I do it. Thanks again for the pointer. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 13:51:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA15194 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA15179 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 3995); 12 Apr 1996 19:51:21 GMT Date: 12 Apr 1996 19:51:21 GMT Message-ID: <19960412195121.10669.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> From: Dave Sill To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: About the magazine spam In-Reply-To: <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com> References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.95 (beta) with XEmacs 19.13 of Fri Sep 1 1995 on sgi0 (irix) [formerly Lucid Emacs] Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote: > >> I remember seeing something about qmail in one of the postings but >> can't get back in to find it again. I'll look later. There was >> something about a mailing list in there, but is it ftp-able? I'd like to >> take a look before I decide to sign up as a beta tester. Yes, you can FTP the qmail beta distribution without signing up to the beta tester list. It's at: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/pub/software/qmail-0.74.tar.gz But you really should join the beta tester's list: it's not overly busy. > Making modifications to check_compat() does require that you be >able to program in C. From what I can gather, making modifications to >most any part of qmail also requires that you program in C. Yes, hacking the qmail code requires hacking the C source. The same is true for sendmail. If there's something you'd like to do with qmail that you think would require that, post it to the beta tester's list. If it's a worthwhile feature, Dan will most likely add it to the next release. But qmail is sufficiently powerful and configurable that you can do most common tasks without source code hacks. Disabling the forwarding of mail to third parties, for example, is trivial in qmail. >Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and >support those with rare C source-level changes. I'd rather use built-in capabilities than have to craft my own. -Dave From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 16:41:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA29067 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from news1.crl.com (news1.crl.com [165.113.1.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA29051 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from endicor.com by news1.crl.com with UUCP id AA23414 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com); Fri, 12 Apr 1996 16:11:57 -0700 Received: from endicor.com (Ufezzik@localhost) by ephsa.alamo.net (8.6.12/8.6.10) with UUCP id SAA10975 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:01:51 -0500 Received: by fezzik.endicor.com (8.7.5/Endicor) id RAA14784; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:35:21 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Xref: endicor.com endicor.lists.list-managers:2954 Newsgroups: endicor.lists.list-managers From: tsarna@endicor.com (Ty Sarna) Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Message-Id: Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 22:32:08 GMT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>, Brad Knowles wrote: > On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote: > > > [Another domain used her system(s) as an MX without permission] > > Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and > bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to > use you as an unadvertised backup MX. Gee Brad, you're a much nicer guy than I am! Me, I'd accept the mail and silently discard it :^) From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 18:17:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA07663 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA07657 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 18:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brad@localhost) by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/AOL-0.0.2) id VAA01421; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:06:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604122106.ZM1419@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:06:07 -0400 In-Reply-To: Sheryl Coppenger "Re: About the magazine spam" (Apr 12, 2:56pm) References: <9604121856.AA12472@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Sheryl Coppenger Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 12, 2:56pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote: > Great. It's not something I need right now, but I look forward to seeing > it. As I said in the first email, I'm not by training or inclination an > email person. I'm filling in for a person who took another job (who we > haven't been able to replace yet). Unfortunately the work I already was > doing did not go away when I took over his tasks. I have the Nutshell > Sendmail book and though I've spent some time with it, it's going to > take me quite a while to deal with the learning curve and to be able to > deal with an 800-page book (plus the RFC and sendmail docs, let alone the > code). This kind of stuff is greatly enhanced in the upcoming edition. > Thanks for the pointer to checkcompat(). I was able to look it up in > the Nutshell book. That's exactly the kind of specific info I've been > looking for for a couple of months. Instead I've generally been getting > vague "you can do anything in sendmail" responses and then nothing when > I ask for details. Or I get a flat "you can't get there from here". There are some people putting together real-world examples of how they use checkcompat() robustly, and as soon as I get anything from them in a usable format, I'll include it in the FAQ. > My sendmail debugging skills are pretty minimal at this point. Since > it doesn't look like we're going to be filling the empty position any > time soon I have the feeling I will be developing them when the semester > ends in a few weeks and I'm no longer trying to do 12 hours a week of > classes in addition to the full-time job. I had already decided I was > probably going to have to install the latest sendmail on my workstation > this summer and just bang on it until I have some confidence in how it > works. That still looks like the plan, I'll just have to add a > checkcompat routine to my TO DO list for when I do it. I haven't done any source-level hacking on sendmail yet, but just getting the package and pounding on it until you understand how to make it do what you want is definitely the way to go. It's still a pretty black art so far, although with books like _sendmail_, it is getting better documented. > Thanks again for the pointer. You're welcome! -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 12 21:01:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA25226 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA25172 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 20:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQaleq28884; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from brad@localhost) by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.7.5/8.7.1/AOL-0.0.2) id VAA01459; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:12:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604122112.ZM1457@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:12:11 -0400 In-Reply-To: Dave Sill "Re: About the magazine spam" (Apr 12, 7:51pm) References: <9604112022.AA16342@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com> <19960412195121.10669.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: Dave Sill Subject: Re: About the magazine spam Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 12, 7:51pm, Dave Sill wrote: > >Personally, I'd rather make minor sendmail.cf rewrite rule changes and > >support those with rare C source-level changes. > > I'd rather use built-in capabilities than have to craft my own. This gets down to a bit of a religious issue, which is why I let this subject drop on comp.mail.sendmail. However, I submit that it is better to use an external language (where the modifications are made to a configuration file) to a general program than making direct source-code level modifications or depending on someone else to make direct source-code level modifications, especially since most modern OSes don't ship compilers anymore. -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 13 12:29:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA01171 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA00721 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id JAA06809; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:07:40 -0700 Received: from desiree.teleport.com(192.108.254.21) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006807; Sat Apr 13 09:07:12 1996 Received: from rfrench (ip-pdx08-03.teleport.com [206.163.121.195]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA14980 for ; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 09:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604131610.JAA14980@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: Re: Subscriber not here Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to thank you all for your very helpful suggestions. My problem has been solved. This is a great list to be part of. Rae French From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 13 15:15:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA19384 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA02953; Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 09:08:20 -0800 To: Eric Thomas , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Pangaea Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:26 PM 4/8/96, Eric Thomas wrote: >For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to >allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default >action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear >otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from >which they will collect $$$ (and I don't care if it's for profit or non >profit, the fact of the matter is that this $$$ will be used to pay the >requestor's paycheck). The least they could do (and I don't know the >specifics of this particular service, since I haven't been contacted yet) >is not to force me to individually reply to 150 solicitations for each of >the ~150 lists I am in charge of, and put REJECT as the first line of my >message (or whatever the case might be) if I do not want my lists >included. As a matter of policy, I interpret this as an attempt to bully >me into acceptance to maximize the $$$ transfer, and I filter out the >requestor's domain so that they cannot subscribe to any of the lists. To >put it simply, when people ask me a favour I expect them to minimize the >amount of work that it will take me to EITHER accept or reject the >favour, and I certainly resent any implication that if I am stupid enough >to refuse to help them make money, I'll get what I deserve and it's >perfectly ok if I have to spend an hour replying REJECT to 150 individual >messages. On the other hand, they could have simply subscribed to your lists without bothering to ask first, and chances are you'd never have noticed. At least they had the courtesy to ask. And look at this from another point of view: I intend to allow them to subscribe to my lists. If they changed their default, then I'd have to manually process all their subscriptions, or send back a message saying "Yes, it's OK for you to subscribe." The question is, which is more common: list owners that are going to say yes, or list owners that are going to say no? I think the former; if that's true, then they chose the right default: the one that causes extra work for the smallest number of people. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 14 16:47:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA03035 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sgigate.sgi.com (sgigate.SGI.COM [204.94.209.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA12403 for ; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgigate.sgi.com via ESMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/940406.SGI) id LAA11520; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:50:19 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/951211.SGI.AUTO) id LAA28349; Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:50:17 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199604121850.LAA28349@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Subscriber not here To: rfrench@teleport.com (Rae French) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 11:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199604121456.HAA04491@desiree.teleport.com> from "Rae French" at Apr 12, 1996 07:56:17 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rae French wrote: > I am getting messages regarding this subscriber at AOL who has a > full mailbox. [snip] > the only thing to do is unsubscribe them. But this person/subscriber is > _not_ subscribed to my mailing list. Is there anything I can do to get this > message to stop coming to me? This has happened to me several times. In all cases, the person was subscribed under some other institution's address and was having their mail *forwarded* from that account to AOL. AOL returns an error to the original mailing list just as if the person had subscribed using their AOL address. The only way to track it down is to look for similar names signed up from other institutions, since most people aren't that creative and use the same or very similar e-mail addresses across the board, and test those addresses individually for errors. In the one case where this proved impossible, where the person in question actually DID use radically different account names, AOL management helped track down the user from their end. They provided me with a real name and I used that to find their actual account on my system. In that case, here fictionalized for anonimity, Jane Blow had signed up to my list as JBlow@foo.edu, but the error messages ("AOL user unknown") were all coming from sommerv467@aol.com. I had NO sommerv467@aol.com on any of my lists and 2500 accounts to search through. Preliminary searching on suspicious names was proving fruitless, so I contacted AOL directly and they were able to help without too much difficulty. Personally I think this type of problem could be solved if their error messages were a bit more specific -- after all, the mail is being _forwarded_ from JBlow@foo.edu; shouldn't the error message go back there too? Or at least indicate the fact that the path from them to me has been altered? Instead the messages appear as if they're directly to me about an AOL user signed up to one of my lists. -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance plus GST." From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 14 17:44:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA08088 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA08075 for ; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id RAA12497; Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:30:02 -0700 Message-ID: <31719859.3AC6@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:29:13 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Diane Barlow Close Subject: Re: Subscriber not here References: <199604121850.LAA28349@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close wrote: > > Rae French wrote: > > I am getting messages regarding this subscriber at AOL who has a > > full mailbox. [snip] > > the only thing to do is unsubscribe them. But this person/subscriber is > > _not_ subscribed to my mailing list. Is there anything I can do to get this > > message to stop coming to me? > > This has happened to me several times. In all cases, the person was > subscribed under some other institution's address and was having their > mail *forwarded* from that account to AOL. AOL returns an error to the > original mailing list just as if the person had subscribed using their AOL > address. The only way to track it down is to look for similar names > signed up from other institutions, since most people aren't that creative > and use the same or very similar e-mail addresses across the board, and > test those addresses individually for errors. Actually, it's usually a *lot* easier than that -- when AOL bounces a message (at least for "not a known user"; I don't have a "mailbox full" bounce handy) it returns the whole thing, including full headers. You just have to examine the returned header, and look for a Received line between AOL and your site. That will reveal where the mail went first before going to AOL, and most of the time, that will unambiguously identify the user (when you combine it with the username at AOL). Of course, it is possible that it is an unrelated MX, and there are a tiny number of mailers that don't insert Received lines, so this is not perfect, but it is a good place to start if you can't idently the user by username alone. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 10:28:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA10245 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu (franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA10237 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA05160 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by felix.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA18724 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:39:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA02903; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:39:05 -0400 Message-Id: <9604151639.AA02903@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: About the magazine spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:39:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > In article <9604121254.ZM10446@azathoth.ops.aol.com>, > Brad Knowles wrote: > > On Apr 11, 4:22pm, Sheryl Coppenger wrote: > > > > > [Another domain used her system(s) as an MX without permission] > > > > Take any mail that comes into your site for a domain like that and > > bounce it. They'll quickly figure out that they really don't want to > > use you as an unadvertised backup MX. > > Gee Brad, you're a much nicer guy than I am! Me, I'd accept the mail and > silently discard it :^) > Of course, everybody who suddenly gets bounces also is going to send email to postmaster@gwu.edu to ask what's going on because postmaster@bozo.org bounces too and they see our name in the header. :-( Basically a no-win situation. I considered dumping their email in the floor but ultimately wound up delivering it. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 12:15:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA25054 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA25048 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14273 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:48:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604151848.NAA14273@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Received lines and tracking down invalid forwarding In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:09:34 PDT." <199604151609.JAA00898@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:48:33 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > [...] and there are a tiny >number of mailers that don't insert Received lines, so this is not >perfect, but it is a good place to start if you can't idently the user >by username alone. Remember, folks, if you have any influence on any local Postmasters, if their hosts do NOT insert full, complete Received headers, PLEASE help by asking/begging them to consider fixing their configurations! It may not directly help them, but someday it may help you, in a situation like the one described here, where a mysterious bounced error results from a subscriber address being forwarded elsewhere... Here's an example of a "complete" header. If you were trying to track why List-Managers-Digest subscriber "ckk@uchicago.edu" had turned into actual address "ckk@ornette.uchicago.edu" (say you were getting bounces from ornette even though no ornette address was on your list), this header would be crucial in tracing the forwarding path: > Received: (from daemon@localhost) by prism.uchicago.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) > id MAA13692 for ckk@ornette.uchicago.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:07:37 -0500 There have been times when I had to track down a mystery and the only useful clue I had was one of the components of such a header. Sometimes even just the Queue ID ("MAA13692" in this case) can help, since the mail system syslog shows the queue ID on the entries listing the incoming originator, and outgoing recipient, addresses. I have just decided to begin assembling a "Postmaster Information" Web page , trying to collect ALL the information like this that an Internet Postmaster should know (including how to administer a mailing list server, PH directory server, etc.), into one place, since I've never seen it all collected before (if there already IS such a thing,specifically for the Internet Postmaster, please let us know the URL or the published book title! haven't looked at O'Reilly's Managing Internet Services yet for example). Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu, ckk@pobox.com http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/index.html (also http://www.pobox.com/~ckk) From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 17:28:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA17487 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psycfrnd.interaccess.com (psycfrnd.interaccess.com [198.80.0.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA17475 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mkleiman@localhost) by psycfrnd.interaccess.com (8.7.2/8.6.9) id TAA25868; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:09:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:09:03 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Kleiman" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi folks - I administer an unmoderated canine breed mailing list ... about 500+ subscribers ... discussion is generally chatty and friendly. Stated list policies prohibit, among other things, off-topic posts and rude behavior (both of which are implicated below). Recently, two subscribers were feuding ("my dog can beat up your dog," or something inane like that). Most of this battle occured *off-list* via private email. One of the two combatants (Party A) sent an email to the other (Party B) saying (in sum): "I have been using a program to monitor your outgoing email, and I know that you are saying unkind things about me to others. Stop or I will sue you." (Party B sent me a copy of this email later.) Party B got scared and posted an (off-topic) message to list: "Everyone on this list should watch their step. Private email is being watched." Needless to say, the list goes nuts and everyone wants me to take some action. I investigated further. By private email, Party A does not deny that he said he was monitoring email, but claims he made it up to frighten Party B into submission. I do not have (nor do I have the ability to acquire) evidence either way. After a strong private lashing from me, both parties agree to bury the hatchet. However, many subscribers are still looking to me to take action against one or both. Questions: If something like this happened on your list, would you take action against either party (i.e., suspend posting privileges or ban from list)? If so, for a period of time or permanently? If not, why not? Does the fact that most of this fight occured (mostly) off-list influence your decision? Would you report your findings and/or your decision to the list? N.B. I have already made a decision on these questions, but have some second thoughts. I will report what I did and what happened if there is any interest. - Matt Kleiman From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 20:59:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA06911 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA26233 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08116 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:11:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Barr Received: (from barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA23511 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199604151911.PAA23511@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: mega-subscribe from mhall@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just had this guy subscribe to all the mailing lists at our site... has anyone else had experience with this guy? --Dave From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 20:59:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA06877 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rosa (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA17464 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rosa (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0u8sBP-0006qMC; Mon, 15 Apr 96 10:35 PDT Message-Id: From: madavis@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Pangaea To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > At 7:26 PM 4/8/96, Eric Thomas wrote: > >For what little it might be worth, as a matter of policy I refuse to > >allow such services to subscribe to my lists when the stated default > >action is that they will subscribe automatically unless they hear > >otherwise from me. The rationale is that they're asking me a favour, from [stuff deleted] and Brent wrote: > On the other hand, they could have simply subscribed to your lists without > bothering to ask first, and chances are you'd never have noticed. At least > they had the courtesy to ask. > > And look at this from another point of view: I intend to allow them to > subscribe to my lists. If they changed their default, then I'd have to > manually process all their subscriptions, or send back a message saying > "Yes, it's OK for you to subscribe." > > The question is, which is more common: list owners that are going to say > yes, or list owners that are going to say no? I think the former; if > that's true, then they chose the right default: the one that causes extra > work for the smallest number of people. I'd agree with Eric that they don't have the right to assign work to other people, no matter how little, to save themselves some. However, we discussed this on one of my lists and I've had a re-think about it. If the stated policy of our lists is that we are running open lists where anyone is invited to join, then we have no right to deny the service a subscription, unless, of course, the service misbehaves on the list. Announcing to us that they are going to subscribe unless we complain is pretty courteous when you look at it that way. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online voting software | * To participate in the beta 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * write info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (415) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- madavis@deliberate.com ------- * From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 15 22:46:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA15305 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA15291 for ; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604160532.WAA15291@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1114; Tue, 16 Apr 96 07:30:21 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 6427; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:30:21 +0200 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:02:10 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Pangaea To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Marilyn Davis said: >However, we discussed this on one of my lists and I've had a re-think >about it. If the stated policy of our lists is that we are running open >lists where anyone is invited to join, then we have no right to deny the >service a subscription, unless, of course, the service misbehaves on the >list. Announcing to us that they are going to subscribe unless we >complain is pretty courteous when you look at it that way. I can't speak for others, but the policy on the open lists that I manage does not include the right to republish the material or use it for commercial purposes. You're allowed to subscribe for your personal use, but you're not allowed to take the material, put it on CD-ROM and then sell the CD-ROM, not without permission. It doesn't make any difference whether you're legally for profit or not. A non-profit corporation is a form of corporation that receives a number of fiscal advantages and that can otherwise do pretty much anything it wants as long as it fits the terms of its (usually very broad) charter, including making millions and paying it to its partners as salaries or consulting fees. The only thing it can't do is sell stock or give dividends; thus, it doesn't have access to the traditional forms of corporate funding. And this is not just theory, I have come across many of these pseudo non-profit organizations. For instance, there was this company that asked for academic pricing on a LISTSERV license based on their non-profit status. Well, I nearly fell from my chair because in a previous job I was buying software from them, and it certainly wasn't priced below market average. In fact it was known for being a product that wouldn't give you any trouble, if you could afford it. It took some nerve to beg for academic discount given what they charged for their own software. They ended up selling the rights to another (for profit) company that pretty much cut the prices in half. I also host a list about fish ecology, and there seem to be scores of non-profit companies with 2-3 employees each that publish CD-ROMs with information about fish biology and the like. They all get very upset when the list owner tells them they can't republish the archives of his lists and sell the CDs for "only" $179.99. They all scream "But we're non profit! We're doing this out of the goodness of our hearts!" Right, and no two of them ever agree to merge the goodness of their respective hearts and get a grant to publish the information *at cost* so that even more people can benefit. Another surprising thing is that the people who write often don't know anything about fish. They have an MBA or equivalent. Somehow I always wonder how these fish charities attract people who have an MBA and don't even have any special interest in fish biology :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 01:12:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA26772 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA26746 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA05318; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:41:37 -0700 Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0u94xS-000Ur1C; Tue, 16 Apr 96 00:13 PDT Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: "Matthew N. Kleiman" , List-Managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 23:23:31 -800 Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 15 Apr 96 at 19:09, Matthew N. Kleiman wrote: > Recently, two subscribers were feuding ("my dog can beat up your dog," or > Needless to say, the list goes nuts and everyone wants me > to take some action. > into submission. I do not have (nor do I have the ability to acquire) > evidence either way. After a strong private lashing from me, both parties > agree to bury the hatchet. However, many subscribers are still looking > to me to take action against one or both. I had something similar occur recently. The allegations from one person (whom I had previously considered mostly harmless) were so bizarre I at first thought they were forged. But I checked and he really said them :-( The other party was fairly offensive also, and then said that I (as list owner) should be responsible for the first person's actions. (It is *not* a moderated list.) > If something like this happened on your list, would you take action > against either party (i.e., suspend posting privileges or ban from > list)? > > If so, for a period of time or permanently? If not, why not? I revoked posting privilege until I got a response from both sides that they were dropping it, and I felt that it had sufficiently blown over. Ended up being only a few days. > Does the fact that most of this fight occured (mostly) off-list influence > your decision? Not really. Once they drag it on to the list, they've made it the list owner's problem. There they are subject to the list rules. In my case, one party somehow expected me to have some influence over the other party's private e-mail. I told them they could take it up with the other party's ISP. (I also told them to get a grip|life|clue...) > Would you report your findings and/or your decision to the list? Because I received complaints from other list members, including valued contributors who considered leaving the list, I did tell the list that I was dealing with it. I did not give specific details. > N.B. I have already made a decision on these questions, but have some > second thoughts. I will report what I did and what happened if there is > any interest. Sure, let's hear it :-) Side note: The one thing that really bugged me in my situation was the second party acusing me of being responsible for the first party's diatribe. I gave them the "you're a guest in my house" analogy and the "I bust my butt running this system so you can whine at me for free" story. I'm curious as to how other list managers have dealt with this situation. Thanks! - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com System Administrator http://www.bolis.com * bolis.sf-bay.org is now bolis.com * I believe the word you're looking for is AAAAAAGHHHHHH!!!! -Batman Returns From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 05:03:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA10113 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA10106 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by homer.louisville.edu; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/03Jun94-0854PM) id AA28167; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:55:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 15 Apr 1996, Alan Millar wrote: > Side note: The one thing that really bugged me in my situation was . . . > have dealt with this situation. Thanks! I've had a few situations like the above... I helped create a list several years ago, and eventually had to take over ownership of it entirely. I set up the listserver as an "evaluation" of majordomo. That kind of thing worked when I was in the IT department of the university. ;) From the go, though the list is not moderated post by post, I laid a few ground rules. Most of them will probably be obvious to everyone here...but I found that I had to explicitly state them as the subscribership grew (now 400+). 1. List owner reserves right to say "take it to email." 2. Stay on topic...please. 3. If you have a problem with the above, email the list owner privately. It worked well for nearly a year. Then I had a rash of subscribe requests from large/major service providers. The noise on the list shot through the roof, and I had many instances where people either started total wars, or wanted to discuss everything *but* the list topic. I handled each incident with only minor trouble... Mostly, it involved telling people to chill out while I handled it. Then I would send letters to the offending parties...wait for a response, and then post back to the list that everything had been dealt with. I never removed posting rights, or removed them from the list... Actually, come to think of it, there was one person I unsubscribed immediately after one of his posts...it was so horribly inciteful, racist, and violent... But he's been the only incident. Heck...he's even resubscribed. Overall, I agree with the "guest in my house" metaphor. I also combine that with the "topic of conversation" one...ya know: "Please stay on topic...the agreed-upon topic for this conversation is X. Tangents are inevitable...but ultimately, we must return to the topic at hand." Oh well... There's my two bits... Jason + Jason A. Dour jadour01@homer.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMXOKsZo1JaC71RLxAQF08AP/ffT++fwn4SPJB4HNEh/c2DDB1uBaIu55 5Nub2L68kvoG48d2FFjT/NoIBiKUdpXtv8eNtq/ye+wLhi15TBCOLMoamGcBKLAe w7E/FBHqYcr8vBPq7rO9Cb6n9A32kShacnOYom6YJLdlh4wGrx+H0XU7ZyDdrNTL zyAGjTJRCOU= =Sq8q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 10:06:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA01131 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leland.Stanford.EDU (leland.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA01125 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by leland.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA08878 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:46 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.stanford.edu (William P. Barr) Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Side note: The one thing that really bugged me in my situation was >the second party acusing me of being responsible for the first >party's diatribe. I gave them the "you're a guest in my house" >analogy and the "I bust my butt running this system so you can whine >at me for free" story. I'm curious as to how other list managers >have dealt with this situation. Thanks! Legally, if you are running an unmoderated list, you are not liable as a third party; however, if your list is being used to conduct criminal activities (this includes discussion of obscure topics like price fixing, monopolies, etc.), you are liable. If you run a moderated list, you are liable. The recent judgement against compuserve illustrates this. Also, there is now a federal law regarding email harassment that users of your list can fall back on, without your involvement. However, be warned that if you keep a log or archive of messages, those records can be requested/siezed as evidence in a harassment case. -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 11:36:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA06953 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA06928 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 11:18:27 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA25834; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:16:19 -0400 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:16:19 -0400 Message-ID: <960416141618_192267748@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: mkleiman@interaccess.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-04-16 11:49:11 EDT, mkleiman@interaccess.com (Matthew N. Kleiman) writes: > If something like this happened on your list, would you take action > against either party (i.e., suspend posting privileges or ban from > list)? I had a similar situation occur on one of my lists, where the supervisor of one of my subscribers silently signed on under an assumed name, watched her underling for several months and then, at the time of her review, produced the accumulated logs as justification for a terrible review. This was a clear misuse of the list (as outlined by the Fair Usage Policy) and I went ballistic -- to the point of contacting the supervisor's supervisor with a copy of the fair usage policy and a demand that the entire contents of the lifted messages be immediately and permanently purged from the worker's records. I further banned the supervisor from the list, and have set permanent filters for their address. > If so, for a period of time or permanently? If not, why not? In my case, it was permanent. In this case, some duration of time should suffice but a permanent restriction is probably not necessary. > Does the fact that most of this fight occured (mostly) off-list influence > your decision? No. > Would you report your findings and/or your decision to the list? If it was made an issue, yes. --David O'Donnell Owner, Belief-L, GLB-Press, GLB-News, GLB-Discuss, et-L From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 16:31:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA25877 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA25860 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0u9K2x-000Y9VC; Tue, 16 Apr 96 18:20 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Subscriber not here To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:20:30 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199604121850.LAA28349@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Apr 12, 96 11:50:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close wrote, | Personally I think this type of problem could be solved if their error | messages were a bit more specific -- after all, the mail is being | _forwarded_ from JBlow@foo.edu; shouldn't the error message go back | there too? Absolutely it should. It was the person using JBlow@foo.edu who put the bad forwarding address onto your list's mailings by directing his or her mail there, so it is JBlow@foo.edu who has control over it. Mail that is forwarded that way should be bounced back to the forwarder. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 17:14:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA00284 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA00277 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20803 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604170008.TAA20803@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:09:03 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:08:11 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Matthew N. Kleiman" writes: > [hilarious story about "monitoring email" threat in a fight about dogs] >If something like this happened on your list, would you take action >against either party (i.e., suspend posting privileges or ban from >list)? I would spank them :-) or at the very least, publicly insult and demean BOTH their DOGS on your MAILING LIST!! :-) jeez, people take stuff so seriously! In fact, I AM being serious -- you need to emphasize how ridiculous the whole brouhaha was, and tell everyone to chill the F*** out. If they act up again, ban them from the list immediately. Chris Koenigsberg From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 17:31:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA00636 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA00624 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20820 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604170011.TAA20820@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: reformatted (Received lines and tracking down invalid forwarding) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:11:32 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have found a workaround for the embarrassing EXMH problem which was causing some of my outgoing mail to go in very, very long lines, whole paragraphs with no line breaks. In response to a request or two, I'm resubmitting this message again and it better get linewrapped this time or I'l @*$&(*^&$#(*^&#$^!@$)(& :-) ------- Forwarded Message >>From: ckk@uchicago.edu >>Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 13:48:33 -0500 >>Subject: Received lines and tracking down invalid forwarding Someone previously wrote: > [...] and there are a tiny >number of mailers that don't insert Received lines, so this is not >perfect, but it is a good place to start if you can't idently the user >by username alone. and I responded (with shamefully unwrapped long lines): Remember, folks, if you have any influence on any local Postmasters, if their hosts do NOT insert full, complete Received headers, PLEASE help by asking/begging them to consider fixing their configurations! It may not directly help them, but someday it may help you, in a situation like the one described here, where a mysterious bounced error results from a subscriber address being forwarded elsewhere... Here's an example of a "complete" header. If you were trying to track why List-Managers-Digest subscriber "ckk@uchicago.edu" had turned into actual address "ckk@ornette.uchicago.edu" (say you were getting bounces from ornette even though no ornette address was on your list), this header would be crucial in tracing the forwarding path: > Received: (from daemon@localhost) by prism.uchicago.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) > id MAA13692 for ckk@ornette.uchicago.edu; Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:07:37 -0500 There have been times when I had to track down a mystery and the only useful clue I had was one of the components of such a header. Sometimes even just the Queue ID ("MAA13692" in this case) can help, since the mail system syslog shows the queue ID on the entries listing the incoming originator, and outgoing recipient, addresses. I have just decided to begin assembling a "Postmaster Information" Web page , trying to collect ALL the information like this that an Internet Postmaster should know (including how to administer a mailing list server, PH directory server, etc.), into one place, since I've never seen it all collected before (if there already IS such a thing,specifically for the Internet Postmaster, please let us know the URL or the published book title! haven't looked at O'Reilly's Managing Internet Services yet for example). Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu, ckk@pobox.com http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/index.html (also http://www.pobox.com/~ckk) ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 17:31:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA01126 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leland.Stanford.EDU (leland.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA01119 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by leland.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA02301 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:17:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:17:48 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.stanford.edu (William P. Barr) Subject: More on Policy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Listmembers, Since I have had a few queries about my post, I'll attempt to elaborate .. >Legally, if you are running an unmoderated list, you are not liable as a >third party; however, if your list is being used to conduct criminal >activities (this includes discussion of obscure topics like price fixing, >monopolies, etc.), you are liable. To elaborate on this point, legal counsel advised me that in an open mailing list, considered a public forum where any list member can post without the intervention of a moderator(s), the list owner cannot be held liable for what is said. However, if there is illegal activity taking part in the public forum of the list, the list owner is both liable and obliged to terminate such activity. If the activity cannot be stopped in the PUBLIC forum, the list owner is obliged to turn the matter over to relevant authorities. The analogy is that a homeowner *may* get busted if a drug deal is going down in the back yard. You might be surprised to find out what may be considered illegal, too. In my case, the Department of Justice informed me that a list that I once owned could fall under Anti-Trust scrutiny due to a discussion about what to charge for consulting services. I stopped the discussion, right away, wrote an ammedment to my intro message, and promptly booted off anyone who violated the rule. At the same time, I was advised by several lawyers on the list that I should take control of the situation, right away. I'm glad I did. Please note, such activity on behalf of the listowner is not censorship nor does it violate freedom of speech guarantees. Freedom of speech does not protect criminal activities! The obnoxious list member can always go practice freedom of speech on someone elses list or another forum. Moreover, as far as the US DOJ is concerned, the internet does not enjoy first ammendment protection (yet). >If you run a moderated list, you are liable. The recent judgement against >compuserve illustrates this. This case and the ruling was covered by most industry press publication. I suggest searching Information Week archives (that's where I first read it). Essentially, moderator = editor and you need to realize that newspapers have some very expensive attorneys on retainer. >Also, there is now a federal law regarding email harassment that users of >your list can fall back on, without your involvement. However, be warned >that if you keep a log or archive of messages, those records can be >requested/siezed as evidence in a harassment case. I read this in an EFF electronic message a few months ago. I believe, since then, there is now some case law to illustrate this point, but I don't recall the reference. Perhaps, it was the San Jose Mercury. Please remember, this is not advice and is worth only what you paid for it. :) Bill -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 18:15:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA06817 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA06811 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23626; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:03:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604170103.UAA23626@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: ckk@uchicago.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:08:11 -0500" References: <199604170008.TAA20803@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:03:28 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "c" == ckk writes: c> I would spank them :-) or at the very least, publicly insult and demean c> BOTH their DOGS on your MAILING LIST!! :-) Really. This kind of thing happens whenever you get enough people together, regardless of age or anything else. People just have to act like children. c> jeez, people take stuff so seriously! In fact, I AM being serious -- you c> need to emphasize how ridiculous the whole brouhaha was, and tell c> everyone to chill the F*** out. I just let everyone know how childish and idiotic they're being, then I drag out the ground rules. They are: I don't censor, moderate, restrict, ban, etc. anything outside of a narrow range of things, namely spam, off-topic advertising (since I'm a state employee), and legal violation that could get _me_ in trouble. I run my lists on my own time for the benefit of me and the "community". When it no longer becomes fun, rewarding, informative, or whatever to run the list, it goes away. Period. c> If they act up again, ban them from the list immediately. I won't do that. I make it plain that I'll ban everybody. Peer pressure usually does the rest. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 19:44:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA15236 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net ([205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA15213 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (brozen@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA10209 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:39:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 19:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: List Managers Subject: Anon-Who Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Where can I find the anon-who patch? Thanks, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 16 23:28:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA04192 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA04186 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id CAA21008; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:21:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: "William P. Barr" cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have had subscribers get very obstreperous both with me and with others and I just take them off the list. The purpose of any discussion is civilized debate not letting off steam in a fashion they would not use face to face. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 08:44:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA11301 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leland.Stanford.EDU (leland.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA11289 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by leland.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18051 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:29:27 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.stanford.edu (William P. Barr) Subject: Re: Comments Wanted on Policy Decisions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I don't censor, moderate, restrict, ban, etc. anything outside of a narrow >range of things, namely spam, off-topic advertising (since I'm a state >employee), and legal violation that could get _me_ in trouble. Jason Tibbitts makes a very interesting point, here. Our university has a "fair use" policy regarding the use of campus computing facilities. In a few instances, I have had to fall back on this policy with a number of users. For those of you who are at public or non-profit organizations, you may save yourself a lot of grief by familiarizing yourself with these policies. Chances are good that someone has already done the policy work for you. -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 08:44:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA11303 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leland.Stanford.EDU (leland.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA11291 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by leland.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA18083 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 08:29:28 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.stanford.edu (William P. Barr) Subject: Re: More on Policy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Marilyn, >Hmmm. What about organizing a programmer's union online. Is that >illegal? It seems a bit close to "discussion about what to charge >for consulting services." >From what I understand, that would not be an illegal activity. However, no mention of prices would be allowed during such discussion. When, and only when, the union becomes a *registered* trade organization with collective bargaining power authorized to be so by the membership, can pricing be discussed. This process will involve federal and state labour agencies as well as the federal department of justice. For example, the Screenwriters Guild publicly publishes a rate card that all their members are to abide by. The only way they can do this and not get nailed by the DOJ for anti-trust is because the Guild is a registered trade organization. Bill -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 09:59:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA15050 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from igc5.igc.apc.org (igc5.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA15030 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news) by igc5.igc.apc.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29890; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:42:57 -0700 (PDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: ppp4-22 From: here2850@igc.apc.org (Stephanie Ruby) Newsgroups: list.listmanagers Subject: SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 15:59:29 GMT Organization: HERE Local 2850 Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4l34h1$r9c_008@ppp4-22.igc.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp4-22.igc.org Keywords: SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT Satisfaction Survey 1. What Human Resources management software do you currently use? ___ Peoplesoft ___ Oracle ___ Integral ___ SAP ___ Genesys ___ Ross Systems ___ Tesseract ___ Other: 2. Overall Satisfaction w/ product Ease of use ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Product Delivery ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Support services ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Training services ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Compatibility ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor System security ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Upgrades ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Other: _______________________________________________________ Peoplesoft is a fairly new company competing against long established players in the field of human resource client/server software. If you use or are planning on purchasing a Peoplesoft product, how are you assured Peoplesoft will survive with heavy competitors like Integral , Oracle and SAP? What other comments (positive or negative) do you have about Peoplesoft and its products? Name Company Address Phone# Return to: HERE Local 2850 548-20th Street Oakland, CA 94612 510-893-3181 ext. 116 FAX: 510-93-5362 e-mail: here2850@igc.apc.org opeiu29/afl-cio From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 09:59:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA15033 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from igc5.igc.apc.org (igc5.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA15023 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from news) by igc5.igc.apc.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00332; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:43:26 -0700 (PDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: ppp4-22 From: here2850@igc.apc.org (Stephanie Ruby) Newsgroups: list.listmanagers Subject: SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 15:59:58 GMT Organization: HERE Local 2850 Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4l34hu$r9c_009@ppp4-22.igc.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp4-22.igc.org Keywords: SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SURVEY ON PEOPLESOFT Satisfaction Survey 1. What Human Resources management software do you currently use? ___ Peoplesoft ___ Oracle ___ Integral ___ SAP ___ Genesys ___ Ross Systems ___ Tesseract ___ Other: 2. Overall Satisfaction w/ product Ease of use ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Product Delivery ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Support services ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Training services ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Compatibility ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor System security ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Upgrades ___ Excellent ___ Good ___ Fair ___ Poor Other: _______________________________________________________ Peoplesoft is a fairly new company competing against long established players in the field of human resource client/server software. If you use or are planning on purchasing a Peoplesoft product, how are you assured Peoplesoft will survive with heavy competitors like Integral , Oracle and SAP? What other comments (positive or negative) do you have about Peoplesoft and its products? Name Company Address Phone# Return to: HERE Local 2850 548-20th Street Oakland, CA 94612 510-893-3181 ext. 116 FAX: 510-93-5362 e-mail: here2850@igc.apc.org opeiu29/afl-cio From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 14:09:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA00887 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dps.sdsu.edu (dps.sdsu.edu [130.191.69.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA00873 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Glen X-Mailer: SCO OpenServer Mail Release 5.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: List site needed Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 13:07:02 PDT Message-ID: <9604171307.aa03131@dps.sdsu.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry to bother you all with this request. I run two mailing lists, each with approximately 80 subscribers and volume of about 10-20 messages daily, and I need to find a new server for them. The system that I currently run is closing down, and I don't want to leave the subscribers hanging! If anyone knows of any servers that are available and willing to take on a few lists, could you let me know? Thanks! Glen glen@dps.sdsu.edu From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 14:45:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA03190 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.vansys.com (pm099.vcr.wis.net [204.191.164.99]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA03184 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 14:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.vansys.com (colossus.vansys.com [192.0.0.1]) by colossus.vansys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA00081 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:00:07 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: A harbinger of bad times ahead (spam) From: Rick Vandenberg Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 09:04:42 PDT Organization: Vandenberg Systems Incorporated, Vancouver BC Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just received the latest spam that hit the ETHCSE-L list (which, by the way, seems to make a mockery of Listserv's anti-spam measures). The doorknob that sent this apparently has some program that will make sending junk mail to everyone as easy boiling water. Just what we need; junk mail by the score, sent directly. It's bad enough sent to lists, but we have a chance to catch it then. When the spammers run their own lists, then we're all in trouble. I called the 800 number below. The blurb on the answering machine is done well, unfortunately, and the product is reasonably priced - $249. @!##$!. (I not very happy.) Rick. Headers and a little bit attached... -------------------------- From owner-ethcse-l@UTKVM1.UTK.EDU Wed Apr 17 01:14:38 1996 Received: by vansys.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 17 Apr 96 01:25:27 PST for rick Received: from VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM [205.186.43.2] by wolfe.wimsey.com with smtp (Smail-3.1.29.1 #13) id m0u9SNo-000TzOC; Wed, 17 Apr 96 01:14 PDT Message-Id: Received: from PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (205.186.43.4) by VMS.DC.LSOFT.COM (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.0a) with SMTP id C3832A6F ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 4:13:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 00:54:56 +0130 Reply-To: Ethical Issues in Software Engineering , BEST BULK EMAIL PROGRAM Sender: Ethical Issues in Software Engineering From: BEST BULK EMAIL PROGRAM Subject: b) NEW Bulk Email Program WOW's The INTERNET!! FREE OFFER To: Multiple recipients of list ETHCSE-L NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM! MADE EASY FOR "ANYONE" TO LOAD & USE! Will Strip Email Addresses, Sort and Send!! Call 1-800-351-8085 For More Information NOW FOR PC OR MAC!! 1ST PROGRAM: - SEARCHES AND FINDS EMAIL ADDRESSES - SORTS AND REMOVES DUPLICATE ADDRESSES - PINGS EMAIL LIST TO VERIFY ACCOUNTS ARE ACTIVE THEN AUTOMATICALLY REMOVES NON DELIVERABLES 2ND PROGRAM : - AUTOMATICALLY SENDS EMAIL *** YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STAY LOGGED ON. You can send MILLIONS of email, depending of the speed of your mail server! [Rest of bullshit deleted] -- Rick Vandenberg, Pres. Internet: Rick@vansys.com Vandenberg Systems Inc. Automated V-MailServer info: vminfo@vansys.com #12 - 3615 West 19th Ave. Internet Applications Group: IAG@vansys.com Vancouver, BC V6S 1C5 Tel: +1-604-228-1181 Fax: +1-604-228-1182 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 15:44:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA08616 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA08592 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id PAA01590; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:32:51 -0700 Message-ID: <31757163.4605@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:32:03 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Security problems with bulk_mailer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been corresponding with several people who run lists at eskimo.com, which seems to have persistent performance (and other) problems. The standard answer to improving delivery performance on Majordomo+sendmail lists is to use bulk_mailer, but two list-owners reported to me that eskimo.com refused to install bulk_mailer because of "security problems". Is this accurate or bogus, and does anyone have any further information? -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 16:13:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA10994 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA10979 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 165.113.1.22 (crl3.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA07545 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:54:06 -0700 Message-Id: <199604172254.AA07545@mail.crl.com> X-Sender: jfh@165.113.1.22 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:58:10 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jack Hamilton Subject: Re: b) NEW Bulk Email Program WOW's The INTERNET!! FREE OFFER Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:54 AM 4/17/96 +0130, BEST BULK EMAIL PROGRAM wrote: >- SEARCHES AND FINDS EMAIL ADDRESSES >- SORTS AND REMOVES DUPLICATE ADDRESSES >- PINGS EMAIL LIST TO VERIFY ACCOUNTS ARE ACTIVE THEN > AUTOMATICALLY REMOVES NON DELIVERABLES I wonder... What is it searching for email addresses? Will I be safe because I use a mail forwarding address? The userid you see, jfh@acm.org, doesn't really exist. Do they really mean "finger" instead of ping? If so, I'd think that just fingering thousands of users would use a significant amount of network resources. -------------------------- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 17 23:34:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA14363 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA14355 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604180619.XAA14355@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6504; Thu, 18 Apr 96 08:18:04 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0293; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:18:04 +0200 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:16:27 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: A harbinger of bad times ahead (spam) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 17 Apr 96 09:04:42 PDT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 17 Apr 96 09:04:42 PDT Rick Vandenberg said: >I just received the latest spam that hit the ETHCSE-L list (which, by >the way, seems to make a mockery of Listserv's anti-spam measures). This server runs version 1.8a, which does NOT have the spam filter. >The doorknob that sent this apparently has some program that will make >sending junk mail to everyone as easy boiling water. Just what we need; >junk mail by the score, sent directly. It's bad enough sent to lists, >but we have a chance to catch it then. When the spammers run their own >lists, then we're all in trouble. Hopefully this will prompt the ISPs to disable telnet from user accounts to port 25 of remote systems, which they should have been doing from day one. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 04:51:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA05575 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 04:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atc.boeing.com (atc.boeing.com [130.42.28.80]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA05569 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 04:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by atc.boeing.com (5.65/splinter.boeing.com) id AA08240; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 04:31:40 -0700 Received: from hsvaic.hv.boeing.com by splinter.boeing.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA260717238; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 04:33:59 -0700 Received: by hsvaic.hv.boeing.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4.hsvaic95.2) id AA22561; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:38:28 -0500 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 06:38:28 -0500 From: george@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com (George P Williams) Message-Id: <9604181138.AA22561@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FWD: Returned mail: User unknown Organization: Boeing Huntsville M&SD Advanced Computing Disclaimer: This message does not represent the official position of The Boeing Company Reply-To: George.Williams@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Will someone please take dgardner@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com off this list. Mail has been bouncing for days, and this user hasn't been on this machine for many months. I have no forwarding address, since he's no longer with Boeing. Thanks, postmaster@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com George P. Williams Senior Principal Scientist The Boeing Company Huntsville Advanced Computing Group POBox 240002, M/S JW-75 Internet: george@hsvaic.hv.boeing.com Huntsville AL 35824-6402 Phone: 205+461-2950 FAX: 205+461-3239 Return-Path: Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:05:29 -0500 From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: User unknown To: Postmaster ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <<< EHLO splinter.boeing.com 500 Command unrecognized <<< HELO splinter.boeing.com <<< MAIL From: <<< RCPT To: 550 ... User unknown <<< DATA ----- Message header follows ----- Return-Path: Received: from splinter.boeing.com by hsvaic.hv.boeing.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4.hsvaic95.2) id AA20613; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:05:29 -0500 Errors-To: Received: from atc.boeing.com by splinter.boeing.com with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA162672050; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:00:50 -0700 Received: by atc.boeing.com (5.65/splinter.boeing.com) id AA24355; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:58:23 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQalwt18708; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) with SMTP id PAA10216; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miles.greatcircle.com (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:44:54 -0700 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA08616 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA08592 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id PAA01590; Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:32:51 -0700 Message-Id: <31757163.4605@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:32:03 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Security problems with bulk_mailer? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 07:21:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA18433 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from venus.co.uk (karl.venus.co.uk [194.72.94.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA18373 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from alex@localhost) by venus.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.6) id PAA22602; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:10:26 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 15:10:26 +0100 (BST) From: Alex Nunes To: Glen cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List site needed In-Reply-To: <9604171307.aa03131@dps.sdsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What's the nature of these lists?? alex On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Glen wrote: > Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 13:07:02 PDT > From: Glen > To: list-managers@greatcircle.com > Subject: List site needed > > Sorry to bother you all with this request. I run two mailing lists, each > with approximately 80 subscribers and volume of about 10-20 messages daily, > and I need to find a new server for them. The system that I currently > run is closing down, and I don't want to leave the subscribers hanging! If > anyone knows of any servers that are available and willing to take on a > few lists, could you let me know? > > Thanks! > Glen > glen@dps.sdsu.edu > Alex Nunes Systems and networks geezer alex@venus.co.uk Venus Internet Ltd http://www.venus.co.uk 24 Denmark Street +44 (0)171 240 5858 (phone) London WC2H 8NJ, UK +44 (0)171 240 5859 (fax) From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 08:50:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23622 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.Stanford.EDU (mailhub.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA23573 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by mailhub.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03614; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:23:14 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (William P. Barr) Subject: Official Stanford Policy, Part 1 Cc: joe@seaweed.coedu.usf.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since I have been asked by so many, here is the official policy note that is given to a mailing list owner who uses the central campus majordomo server. I will locate the URL for the Computer Usage Policy and post it here, later. General Policy Statements ------------------------- We reserve the right to refuse to set up and/or to shutdown a mailing list using these services. If abusive behavior is being exhibited by a list member, we will place the onus of first contact on the owner of the list. We reserve the right to limit a person's posting ability and list membership if the list owner is unable to deal with the list member. We reserve the right to remove a list from the mailing list server if it becomes party to unreasonable or inappropriate usage of resources (unreasonable or inappropriate as defined by the staff maintaining this server guided by the Computer Usage Policy) and discussions with the list owner prove fruitless. -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 08:51:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA25372 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.Stanford.EDU (mailhub.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA25313 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by mailhub.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA04198; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:42:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:42:54 -0700 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: wbarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (William P. Barr) Subject: Stanford Policy, part 2 Cc: joe@seaweed.coedu.usf.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The main URL for Stanford University policies can be found at: http://www-dccs.stanford.edu/security/su_codes_of_conduct.html Mainly of interest are the Computer Useage Policy and the ResComp Acceptable Use policy (for the university dormitories). If you need further information, just connnect to the main Stanford page (www.stanford.edu), select the search button on the bottom of the page, and search the Portfolio collection. Portfolio is the campus electronic documentation system and is much more content-rich than most of the campus web. I hope this is helpful. Bill -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 10:40:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA04944 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA04933 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net id al17727; 18 Apr 96 16:21 +0100 Received: from bclimser.demon.co.uk ([158.152.80.60]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa23352; 18 Apr 96 16:18 +0100 From: Sanwar Ali Organization: BCL Immigration Services To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:47:11 +0000 Subject: Can't find problem Subscriber! Reply-to: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <829840726.23352.0@bclimser.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I have got a subscriber on my majordomo list. I get error msgs for him everyday saying that he has exceeded his disk quota on his server. However, I can't remove him from the list, as he is not there! I think I have one or two anonymous subscribers and wonder if it could be one of these. I anyone has any ideas on how to solve this problem I would like to hear from you. All the best. -- Sanwar Ali Managing Partner BCL Immigration Services 40 South Audley Street Mayfair London, W1Y 5DH UK Telephone: +44 171 495 3999 or +44 171 495 8662 Fax: +44 171 495 3991 e-mail: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk, sanwar@pobox.com For public key: finger sanwar@pobox.com ******************** Owners of the Visa-Free List. "Discussion of how to gain another nationality for visa-free travel". To subscribe: subscribe visa-free [with nothing else] to majordomo@pobox.com ****************** From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 15:09:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA19980 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kvnet.kvnet.org (kvnet.org [198.67.7.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA19974 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:50:08 -0700 (PDT) From: futrcpts@kvnet.org Message-Id: <199604182150.OAA19974@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 18 Apr 1996 17:29:52 EDT Subject: New Free service for all - spread the word ! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk New Free service to help people and organizations announce their interests. New groups, new businesses, new concepts, etc. No strings attached. visit our web site http://www.kvnet.org/mat/index.htm Future Concepts Marketing futrcpts@kvnet.org From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 18 17:46:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA00452 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA00446 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA17714; Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:22:55 -0400 Message-Id: <9604190022.AA17714@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: New Free service for all - spread the word ! In-Reply-To: Your message of "18 Apr 96 17:29:52 EDT." <199604182150.OAA19974@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 18 Apr 96 20:22:50 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well now *there's* a new way to announce the headers of a new spam. Thanks! We won't be seeing it on _my_ lists! -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 19 23:27:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA17547 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.vansys.com (pm099.vcr.wis.net [204.191.164.99]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA17541 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from colossus.vansys.com (colossus.vansys.com [192.0.0.1]) by colossus.vansys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAB00119 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:04:05 -0700 To: Eric Thomas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Listserv's spam filter (was: a harbinger of ...) From: Rick Vandenberg Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 09:12:35 PDT In-Reply-To: <199604180619.XAA14355@miles.greatcircle.com> Organization: Vandenberg Systems Incorporated, Vancouver BC Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas writes: > On Wed, 17 Apr 96 09:04:42 PDT Rick Vandenberg said: > > >I just received the latest spam that hit the ETHCSE-L list (which, by > >the way, seems to make a mockery of Listserv's anti-spam measures). > > This server runs version 1.8a, which does NOT have the spam filter. My apologies.... I was under the impression that the spam filter had been around for a number of versions. -- Rick Vandenberg, Pres. Internet: Rick@vansys.com Vandenberg Systems Inc. Automated V-MailServer info: vminfo@vansys.com #12 - 3615 West 19th Ave. Internet Applications Group: IAG@vansys.com Vancouver, BC V6S 1C5 Tel: +1-604-228-1181 Fax: +1-604-228-1182 From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 19 23:32:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA07633 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07622 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quads.uchicago.edu (moh2@quads.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.63]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id JAA27956 for ; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:17:32 -0500 Received: (from moh2@localhost) by quads.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) id JAA12700 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:17:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 96 9:17:41 CDT From: Kateri/Mary Anne To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Erotica Workshop List Proposal Message-ID: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My name is Mary Anne Mohanraj, and I'm writing to you to request machine resources to set up a mailing list. I'm currently a member of the Writer's Workshop list (writing@psuvm.psu.edu), but unfortunately, psuvm.psu.edu is unable to host our proposed list. The new list would be a erotica writers' workshop, branching off from the main list. We would exchange submissions, criticism, and market info. I'm afraid we wouldn't be able to pay anything. I'm not sure how much traffic we'd be generating, but I currently have approximately 30-40 writers interested in participating, and it would be a fairly closed forum to begin with. Any help or advice you can offer on this would be much appreciated. Thanks, Mary Anne From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 20 00:40:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA15962 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA15879 for ; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id DAA11939; Sat, 20 Apr 1996 03:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 03:32:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Glen cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List site needed In-Reply-To: <9604171307.aa03131@dps.sdsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk /try info@webcom.com where I have set up an account or I can set up these small lists on my own account for you if the costs direct from webcom are too high. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** On Wed, 17 Apr 1996, Glen wrote: > Sorry to bother you all with this request. I run two mailing lists, each > with approximately 80 subscribers and volume of about 10-20 messages daily, > and I need to find a new server for them. The system that I currently > run is closing down, and I don't want to leave the subscribers hanging! If > anyone knows of any servers that are available and willing to take on a > few lists, could you let me know? > > Thanks! > Glen > glen@dps.sdsu.edu > From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 21 17:49:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05757 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA05751 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id SAA06757; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:46:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199604212346.SAA06757@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: "You can have your own free money making home page " [SPAM] To: Asunflower@msn.com (Dr Sunflower) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 18:46:00 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, webmaster@cognigen.com In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This spam showed up today. By the time I went to check the web page, the web page already said: THIS PAGE HAS BEEN DISABLED BECAUSE OF VIOLATION OF THE COGNIGEN POLICY AGAINST MASS UNSOLICITED EMAIL AND SPAMMING. Please inform the person who sent you to this page that we will not work with people who engage in this kind of practice. We suggest that you also email postmaster at the domain from which the email or newsgroup spam was issued, asking that the spammer's email account be closed. Kevin Anderson, [1]Webmaster I would just like to thank cognigen.com, and especially Kevin, for their prompt action, and suggest that Dr. Sunflower go back to the beach where smrtz apparently fried smrtz brains, and build sand castles or something more productive than attracting unwantred attention. -Miles meo@rru.com |From Asunflower@msn.com Sun Apr 21 03:58:58 1996 |Return-Path: Asunflower@msn.com |Received: from upsmot01.msn.com (upsmot01.msn.com [204.95.110.78]) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id DAA05289 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 03:58:51 -0500 |Received: from upmajb04.msn.com ([204.95.110.81]) by upsmot01.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id CAA08708; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:31:46 -0700 |Date: Sun, 21 Apr 96 08:18:32 UT |From: "Dr Sunflower" |Message-Id: |Subject: "You can have your own free money making home page "pij |Apparently-To: | |Aloha, | "Your address was removed from my data base when this letter was sent!" | | You will not be contacted by me again. If this upsets you just delete |it now. If you are interested in making more money read on. We do not want |any money from you. This is not a chain letter or anything you have seen |before. I am deeply sorry if you are upset by this intrusion on your privacy. | | "You can have your own free money making home page working for you today!" | | As you know the popularity of the Internet is increasing as more and |better content goes on line. Because of your familiarity with the net you |will be able to have your own home page generating wealth for you just as web |sites are for so many others today. Safely increasing your income as the net |explodes with newcomers. | | "Explosive profits!" | | Those who have found a way to make wealth flow to them through web sites |as we have, and get in early, will receive incredibly excessive profits. More |than would normally be expected, as more and more people experience this new |21st century medium. | | "You can give free money making home pages to others!" | | As you will be able to clearly see from my interactive page. People can |use your page to get their own free pages, increasing your profits on the |Internet, people I will send to your page. People who have been mastering |Internet skills like you are making a lot of money by having an Interactive |money making home page on the Internet at this time. You can begin to have |your own home page generating wealth for you now, by going to: | |http://www.cognigen.com/f/fci.cgi?pi5860918 | | "Just buy anything you want, anyplace you want, whenever you want!" | | How much income do you need? So that you can get a new car, buy a new |house, send someone to school, bring your spouse home from work or bring |yourself home from work. Or just buy anything you want, anyplace you want, |anytime you want. There is the potential here to make an enormous amount of |money. You could be pulling in $10,000 a month in residual income in 12 to 18 |months. | | "You do know what residual income is?" | | That means that you dedicated the time to reach that point, then quit |completely, if you wish, and the $10,000 per month just keeps on coming, month |after month. In fact, should you reach that point, there is a good chance |that the monthly amount could increase, on its own, to $12,000, $14,000, and |more. True perpetual income. To get your own web page IMMEDIATELY, click on |or go to my web site right now: | |http://w3.servint.com/cognigen/f/fci.cgi?pi5860918 | | "One of a kind!" | | This is a new, fresh young, Internet marketing operation. We are |participating in the future of electronic marketing, and what we do now, will |be the foundation for those yet to come. We offer the only program of it's |kind on the Internet today, although I'm sure there will be copycats soon. |Growth has been fantastic because its free and can be totally on line. A lot |of people are attracted because of the excellent marketing tools we make |available to you like your perpetual income homepage. | | "Start as early as today!" | | There is no cost. No obligation You can get started NOW! You will |create your own home page online, including sound & video clips. | |Aloha, Dr Sunflower |http://www.cognigen.com/f/fci.cgi?je3130071 | From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 21 18:10:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA06574 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA06559 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 17:52:05 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: How to get off a list... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lessee if I can come up with a subject line and first few lines of text that succeed in circumventing my own administrivia filters... :-) -Brent --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:05:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Keith Bostic To: /dev/null@mongoose.bostic.com Subject: Sign Off Status: RO Forwarded-by: guy@netapp.com (Guy Harris) Forwarded-By: bbrelin@netcom.com (Braun Brelin) Forwarded-by: "Steven Johnson (BUS)" On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Myers, Bill wrote: > How do you get off this list? I have tried the majordomo and I still > get mail even though it says I'm not on the list. This is what you need to do. Please read these instructions carefully before beginning. tools needed: one Hammer, one scredriver, one pair of pliers, one heavy-duty pair of wire cutters, one bucket of saline water, a box of sani-wipes. Step #1: Stop payment on any checks that you may have sent to your Internet Service Provider (GOD). Step #2: If GOD is unresponsive and you are still receiving mail from this list, you will need to find the "mailhost". This is a machine usually located in a locked office. Every day around noon, the mailman will deliver a box of diskettes with that day's mail messages, including yours from this list, to this machine. Typically, only a handful of people have keys to the "mailhost". The reason why this machine is locked up is because this is typically the best, fastest, most powerful computer at your facility and the people with keys don't want to share it. If you must, break or pry the door down with one (1) hammer (you did get all the tools needed?). Step #3: Find the ON/OFF switch for this machine. Using the pliers, set the switch to the OFF position by tugging downwards until the disposable plastic switch breaks away from the computer casing. Discard the disposable plastic switch in an environmental-friendly manner. This will alert the mailman to not deliver the diskettes with the messages to the "mailhost" not unlike the little red flag found on mailboxes. This should resolve your mail problem immediately. Step #4: You may experience a recurrence of mail within 72 hours. If this should happen, you will need to disable the "mailhost" once again with more forceful measures. Repeat Step #2. Don't be suprised if there is a sturdier door in place than the one you destroyed previously. This is due to the fact that the "Have Key" clique found out that someone has seen their private stash of computer equipment. Step #5: After you have once again regained entry into the "mailhost" room, open up the back of the "mailhost". There may be a large tv-like device on top of the "mailhost" You will need to remove this first. Take your wire cutters, and cut any cables binding the tv-like device to the "mailhost". Set the tv-like device to the side. With your screwdriver, remove each and every screw that you can find on the "mailhost". Once this is done, the "mailhost" should break away into two or more pieces. Step #5: Find a large box with a fan attached to it. It will be clearly marked with the following labels: "Danger" "High Voltage" "Do not open - no user-servicable parts". Don't worry, these labels are merely in place to satisfy OSHA requirements and you are not in any danger at all. Take the bucket of saline water and pour it into any vents or ports that the large box may have. Any extra water should be poured directly into the computer chassis, be sure to properly soak each and every component. Step #6: In the event of fire (OSHA has been known to be right on occassion), douse any flames with the sani-wipes. This solution is provided without warranty. It is not bio-degradable or fat-free. In the event of sudden death, contact a physician immediately. _________________________________________________________________________ | Reengineering Half-A-Glass Steven Johnson | | An optimist is someone who says a glass johnson@stpt.usf.edu | is half full. A pessimist says it's http://www.stpt.usf.edu/~johnson | half empty. A reengineering consultant | says, "Looks like you've got twice as (813) 893-9551 | much glass as you need." ---------------------------------+--------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 21 22:04:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA01731 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 21:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thymaster.interaccess.com (thymaster.interaccess.com [198.80.0.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id VAA01715 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 21:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mkleiman.interaccess.com (d148.loop.interaccess.com [206.183.68.148]) by thymaster.interaccess.com (8.7.2/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA12374 for ; Sun, 21 Apr 1996 23:46:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960422044953.006a2d68@pop.interaccess.com> X-Sender: mkleiman@pop.interaccess.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 23:49:53 -0500 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: "Matthew N. Kleiman" Subject: Policy Comments Redux Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi folks - As the original poster, I want to thank all for their thoughts on these issues. Interesting how the responses ran the gamit from immediate ban to never ban. Most, it seemed, recommended the course of action I ultimately chose: stern lashing, no ban, explanation to the group to calm concerns. I still have doubts about the propriety of taking action when the offending conduct occurs off list. I know its *my* list and I could ban my own mother if I wanted to, but that doesn't necessarily make it right...Still pondering this one. - Matt Matthew N. Kleiman * Chicago * Illinois * mailto:mkleiman@interaccess.com PGP C77BF1D5 * 1996/04/10 * C3 97 80 69 5F 6F 97 A3 91 E8 56 1A 0D 87 FB 36 Administrator * Bernese Mountain Dog Mailing List * berner-l@prairienet.org Author * Berner Home Page * http://www.prairienet.org/~mkleiman/berner.html From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 22 09:27:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA13556 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA13548 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id IAA23196; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 08:42:10 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma023193; Mon Apr 22 08:41:08 1996 Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:44:54 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:44:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 17:44:52 +0200 Message-Id: <199604221544.9009.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: jfh@acm.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <199604172254.AA07545@mail.crl.com> (message from Jack Hamilton on Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:58:10 -0700) Subject: Re: b) NEW Bulk Email Program WOW's The INTERNET!! FREE OFFER Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Jack Hamilton] | What is it searching for email addresses? Usenet, WHO from Listserv/Majordomo/... or SMTP-EXPN of publicly known mailing lists. | Will I be safe because I use a mail forwarding address? The userid | you see, jfh@acm.org, doesn't really exist. Do they really mean | "finger" instead of ping? If so, I'd think that just fingering | thousands of users would use a significant amount of network | resources. They probably do something like this to verify the addresses: mconnect host smtp helo how.do.you.do mail from:<> rcpt to: If they get a 250 response, it`s OK. Now, they have no guarantee that you haven't set up a faulty forwarding address. They can do EXPN and find out that you're really and check with crl.com, but not all mail servers allow EXPN, so they may not bother to complicate the procedure. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 22 15:05:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA04205 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA04189 for ; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) id OAA21731; Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:48:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199604222148.OAA21731@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, webmaster@cognigen.com Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:49:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: "You can have your own free money making home page " [S Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Miles O'Neal wrote: > This spam showed up today. By the time I went to > check the web page, the web page already said: > THIS PAGE HAS BEEN DISABLED BECAUSE OF VIOLATION OF THE COGNIGEN > POLICY AGAINST MASS UNSOLICITED EMAIL AND SPAMMING. > [...] > Kevin Anderson, [1]Webmaster > I would just like to thank cognigen.com, and especially Kevin, for > their prompt action, [...] I agree! I've exchanged email with Kevin about this as well, and he's handled it in an extremely professional and responsible manner. If only all the other ISP operators/postmasters were so good... --- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ 110 E. Wilshire Ave / Suite G-10 /, ,\ // \ / \ \ /, ,\ Fullerton, CA 92632 / 714.526.5656 _| _ // \/ \____\ _| _ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 23 09:46:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00473 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA00465 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from garyb@localhost) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA19189 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Bickford" Message-Id: <199604231628.JAA19189@outlawnet.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #75 X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wonder - what if an individual or organization merely accepted "postings" from anybody, stating their rates, and compiled a periodic "standard" or "usual and customary" rates summary? It appears to me that this would not violate any rules but would be more on the order of an industry survey. If anybody's interested, I'd run that on my system. Mail me direct - no sense cluttering up this list. On the original post - I can't see any positive influence of a programmer's union. (Keep this off the list too. Flame me direct :) GB (garyb@outlawnet.com) Bill said: When, and only when, the union becomes a *registered* trade organization with collective bargaining power authorized to be so by the membership, can pricing be discussed. This process will involve federal and state labour agencies as well as the federal department of justice. For example, the Screenwriters Guild publicly publishes a rate card that all their members are to abide by. The only way they can do this and not get nailed by the DOJ for anti-trust is because the Guild is a registered trade organization. Bill - -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 23 16:38:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA21470 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA21464 for ; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) id QAA10526; Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:27:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199604232327.QAA10526@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 16:29:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: "Effective Online Marketing" *snort* Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Do people really fall for the kind of promoted at http://www.infocomm.net/~lack/email.html and if so, what can we do to stop this kinda stuff? --- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ 110 E. Wilshire Ave / Suite G-10 /, ,\ // \ / \ \ /, ,\ Fullerton, CA 92632 / 714.526.5656 _| _ // \/ \____\ _| _ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 24 09:20:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA11042 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA11036 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.113.247] (phoffman.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.113.247]) by imc.org (8.7.4/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA07557 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: paulh@imc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199604081633.JAA14994@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:07:40 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Not-so-humorous bounce message Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk . . . 550 "Koukis, Stephen" ... Host unknown (Name server: visa.com: host not found) . . . Boy, this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy about reliable online commerce... From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 24 09:54:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA12227 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu (franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA12213 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 09:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA19046 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by felix.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA29137 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:31:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA14377; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:31:27 -0400 Message-Id: <9604241631.AA14377@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: "Effective Online Marketing" *snort* To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:31:27 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199604232327.QAA10526@idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Apr 23, 96 04:29:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Do people really fall for the kind of promoted at > > http://www.infocomm.net/~lack/email.html > > and if so, what can we do to stop this kinda stuff? > I don't know anything about infocomm.net, but maybe they'll put a stop to it if they know about it. I just looked at the page and then fired off a note to postmaster@infocomm.net. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 24 20:57:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA15549 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA15543 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulh@localhost) by www.hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA01809; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:36:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:36:08 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Any "rules of order" for running a committee via a mailing list? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm on the board of directors of a small not-for-profit organization. The by-laws require that the board of directors approve contracts and some types of expenditures. This meant that once a month or so I went to an intensely boring meeting. Now that all of the directors have e-mail, we're experimenting with using a mailing list to replace some meetings. A document of suggested guidelines could save us quite a bit hassle later on. Has anyone else run an organization effectively via an e-mail list? Do you have a set of guidelines for handling votes and discussions? E-mail now lets us micro-manage to new levels of inefficiency. In the physical meetings, we have a written agenda to keep the meetings moving forward, we need the e-mail equivalent. Are there other techniques to keep the forum productive? 4 out of 7 of the directors went online with-in the last 3 months. A couple of them do not yet have full internet access, so we are limited to email for now. Any advice is welcome, Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 24 22:24:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA25707 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 21:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA25701 for ; Wed, 24 Apr 1996 21:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA21874 ; for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 00:38:02 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199604250438.AAA21874@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Any "rules of order" for running a committee via a mailing list? To: paulh@hamjudo.com (Paul Haas) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 00:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Paul Haas" at Apr 24, 96 11:36:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For yourself, as email facilitator-advocate, you should read _Connections_ by Lee Sproull and Sara Kiesler. [The next book by Lipnack and Stamps will also be on this topic.] The basic organizational rule is balance -- don't have another meeting without doing homework, don't do too much homework without having a meeting. Since you still have recourse to face-to-face meetings with these people, learn how to use email to make your RealTime together more productive. Get people to email out reports a reasonable space before meetings, etc. Each team, and this board is no exception, will have to inch around a bit in the saddle until comfortable. That is to say, no rules fit all groups. But approach email as a complementary resource and not a replica of face-to-face interaction and you will find that the group is less boring to belong to. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 25 01:14:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA28344 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 01:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA28254 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 01:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA07543; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 00:58:45 -0700 Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0uCLVR-000Ur2C; Thu, 25 Apr 96 00:30 PDT Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: pdc@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Paul Close), list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:39:54 -800 Subject: Re: wish list items X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 23 Apr 96 at 9:31, Paul Close wrote: > Alan Millar has come up with a sort of autobouncer, perhaps we should > include that with majordomo? Any comments Alan? I thought it was in the "contrib" directory. I just now pulled down 1.94a4 and I see it isn't there. I think it would be a good thing to include. It does a decent job of recognizing bona fide bounces without too many false positives. The major improvement it needs is to be able to make bounce decisions based on how many times an address has bounced. Right now, one bounce that matches and you're out. Several people have asked for the ability to do something like "only unsub the address if it bounces more than X time or more than Y days". I'm using it as it is, but I do concur that would be a nice improvement. Of course, that means being stateful and we all know Majordomo wasn't designed that way :-) I imagine the fix will require something like logging bounces and then running a program once every few days or so that counts the bounces and then decides what to do. I hear that Smartlist will count how many bounces occur before unsubbing an address. What sort of method and/or stateful information does it use/keep for this? Regardless, I think it would be a useful addition to the "contrib" directory. Chan, should I send you a copy of the latest? Thanks! - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com System Administrator http://www.bolis.com -> bolis.sf-bay.org is now bolis.com <- I can't give you brains, but I can give you a diploma -Wizard of Oz to Scarecrow From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 25 08:54:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA11273 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.Stanford.EDU (mailhub.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA11264 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by mailhub.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01988 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:40:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:40:53 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wbarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (William P. Barr) Subject: FORGERY: Your hack attempts on NOL.NET Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone, I just spoke with Brett Hawn and he has assured me this (included) message is a forgery. I have received a copy and so have several dozen people on my mailing lists. The common denominator seems to be anyone who has used irc over the past week. Nol.net has contacted the appropriate authorities and has set up infobots at admin@nol.net and abuse@nol.net Sys Admins at nol.net have found the original source of the message, and are working with the various isp's involved. Bill >Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 18:36:08 -0500 (CDT) >From: "Brett Hawn [NOL Staff]" >To: wbarr@elaine31.Stanford.EDU >Subject: Your hack attempts on NOL.NET >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Thought I would never find you, huh? Your hacking days are over fucker, >you're dead shit now. You thought you were a tough guy screwing with our >systems at Networks On-Line. I personally caught you red handed digging >into our customer's CREDIT CARD records. I have your entire session >logged and I even traced it back to your dialin terminal. > >You don't fuck around with me, pussy. I'm a Texan man, and you don't fuck >with Texas. I'm contacting your administrators voice tomorrow morning. >Wait until the shit hits the fan. The police will probably be involved. > >Have fun. You will regret ever fucking with NOL.NET. > >Call me at 713-467-7100 if you have questions. > >-- >Brett Hawn | 10497 Town and Country Way, Suite 460 >Networks On-Line | Houston, TX 77024 >IRC Nick: Piraeus | Voice: (713) 467-7100 > -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 25 13:08:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08987 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA08972 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22818 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:02:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604252002.PAA22818@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu (Chris Koenigsberg ckk@pobox.com) From: ckk@uchicago.edu (Chris Koenigsberg ckk@pobox.com) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any "rules of order" for running a committee via a mailing list? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:36:08 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:02:04 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas writes: >Has anyone else run an organization effectively via an e-mail list? Do >you have a set of guidelines for handling votes and discussions? One suggestion is, make damn sure that you have someone who has a portion of their time solidly committed to the task of being Postmaster and List Administrator. They must: learn how your mail system runs and how your list server software runs, insure that the list is running correctly, the addresses are updated, that the relevant people are all actually receiving the email and are all able to reply OK, no complications e.g. attached document incompatibility etc., no bad addresses get in there, ... and especially, make sure that you are not sending out all your confidential internal mail to a random Mailer-Daemon somewhere else on the Internet (see my message about such a real incident, in Risks Digest 18.05 :-) Chris Koenigsberg, U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services ckk@uchicago.edu, ckk@pobox.com http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/index.html (also http://www.pobox.com/~ckk) From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 25 19:23:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA24282 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA24264 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:15:05 -0700 (PDT) From: name.withheld@by.request Received: from genesis ([165.254.214.46]) by panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id WAA17081 for ; Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960426021620.006e655c@by.request> X-Sender: name.withheld@by.request (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 22:16:20 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spam spam spam spam... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bFrom list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 04:12:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA11382 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA11373 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by homer.louisville.edu; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/03Jun94-0854PM) id AA13143; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:58:11 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:58:07 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: SPAM Headers In-Reply-To: <9604252333.aa15445@rigel.callemx.com> Message-Id: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 25 Apr 1996, Donald Loughlin wrote: > ----------- Spam as received #1 ---------------------------- . . . > To: internet.announcement.service@r1.f64.n8769.z303.fidonet.org ----------------------------- Am I just delinquent in reading my l-man mail? Or is this something new?! I've received many of these spams, but this is the first I remember having "internet.announcement.service" in it. Is this old? Or is this new? Something borrowed... something... oh nevermind. Jason + Jason A. Dour jadour01@homer.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMYCsQpo1JaC71RLxAQHKjAQAj1CIdXu1nDLdIKbqhX3lrSyQyuIWm3g5 A8bjrP6Hv8xWx7+qmn+Po2l0gEB3gHGOKs++uwJNd+2V/KxTe6nyejQ1MpW4NAQD 7fX/ZZHe2a/gdkyp3IcHNymmUFQrnWQfcEwlwLmHv5o4v5/lTyN4oWDNCQc0tQ1Z UIQnMxZFnQU= =zk2L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 05:41:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA17350 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 05:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA17340 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 05:13:34 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA12703; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:11:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:11:15 -0400 Message-ID: <960426081115_383269718@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: donl@callemx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: SPAM Headers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-04-25 23:47:34 EDT, donl@callemx.com (Donald Loughlin) writes: > From: Lewisarons@aol.com > Message-ID: <960425211012_382939026@emout18.mail.aol.com> > To: internet.announcement.service@r1.f64.n8769.z303.fidonet.org The user behind the spam was terminated yesterday evening. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 09:46:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23891 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aspen3.aspensys.com (aspensys3.aspensys.com [198.77.70.84]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA23605 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com by aspen3.aspensys.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17799; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:30:45 -0400 Received: from ccMail by smtpinet.aspensys.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA830544135; Fri, 26 Apr 96 11:28:25 EST Date: Fri, 26 Apr 96 11:28:25 EST From: "Jim Meritt" Message-Id: <9603268305.AA830544135@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: donl@callemx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re[2]: SPAM Headers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Uhhhhhh. The user, or the user's account? Seems a little drastic, if the former... Jim ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: SPAM Headers Author: PMDAtropos@aol.com at SMTPINET Date: 4/26/96 9:02 AM In a message dated 96-04-25 23:47:34 EDT, donl@callemx.com (Donald Loughlin) writes: > From: Lewisarons@aol.com > Message-ID: <960425211012_382939026@emout18.mail.aol.com> > To: internet.announcement.service@r1.f64.n8769.z303.fidonet.org The user behind the spam was terminated yesterday evening. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 10:16:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA11982 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (bayflash.stpt.usf.edu [131.247.140.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA11965 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (johnson@localhost) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA29995; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:58:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:58:45 -0400 (EDT) From: "Steven Johnson (BUS)" X-Sender: johnson@bayflash To: Jim Meritt cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: SPAM Headers In-Reply-To: <9603268305.AA830544135@smtpinet.aspensys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Jim Meritt wrote: > Uhhhhhh. The user, or the user's account? > Seems a little drastic, if the former... Damn liberals are everywhere. You have to get tough on spammers. If you just slap them on the wrist, within 48 hours they'll get busted again for spamming. This way, they'll never spam again, and it sends a strong, clear message that this kind of activity will not be tolerated in our society!!! > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: SPAM Headers > Author: PMDAtropos@aol.com at SMTPINET > Date: 4/26/96 9:02 AM > > > The user behind the spam was terminated yesterday evening. From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 10:24:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA11963 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA11942 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grafolog@localhost) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id RAA21729; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:02:34 GMT Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 17:02:33 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: Re[2]: SPAM Headers To: Jim Meritt cc: donl@callemx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, PMDAtropos@aol.com In-Reply-To: <9603268305.AA830544135@smtpinet.aspensys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jim: On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Jim Meritt wrote: > Uhhhhhh. The user, or the user's account? > > Seems a little drastic, if the former... And I was hoping that it meant the AOL terminated with extreme prejudice, all people who spam the net from AOL. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: Re: SPAM Headers > Author: PMDAtropos@aol.com at SMTPINET > Date: 4/26/96 9:02 AM > > > In a message dated 96-04-25 23:47:34 EDT, donl@callemx.com (Donald Loughlin) > writes: > > > From: Lewisarons@aol.com > > Message-ID: <960425211012_382939026@emout18.mail.aol.com> > > To: internet.announcement.service@r1.f64.n8769.z303.fidonet.org > > The user behind the spam was terminated yesterday evening. ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * * OR * * * * http://members.tripod.com/~graphology/index.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 26 11:42:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA20972 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA20686 for ; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id KAA28228; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:28:58 -0700 Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com(206.16.238.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma028197; Fri Apr 26 10:28:00 1996 Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) id KAA22442; Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:31:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199604261731.KAA22442@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:35:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Annoying Autoresponders Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Don't you hate people who join mailing list, and then their silly, broken autoresponders spam everyone on the list each time a message is replied? The following came over a list I'm on, and I found it somewhat amusing. Be warned, don't add vice.president@whitehouse.gov to any of your lists! ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:29:10 -0400 Reply-to: Discussion of Ethics in Computing From: autoresponder@WHITEHOUSE.GOV Subject: Re: Gilligan's theory of gender-specific morals To: Multiple recipients of list ETHICS-L Dear Friend: Thank you for writing to Vice President Gore via electronic mail. Since coming on-line, vice.president@whitehouse.gov has received thousands of messages from people all over the world. Although the volume of mail prevents the Vice President from personally reviewing each message, be assured that your concerns, ideas, and suggestions have been read carefully, and a detailed report of the mail is provided to the Vice President on a regular basis. Your message will be brought to his attention as part of that report. We currently are working toward a system that will allow us to respond more specifically to your messages. In order to do so, your help will be needed to ensure that we can read and record your message clearly. Please try to write short and concise messages, address only one issue per message, and send only one copy of your message. You will receive one automated response per day. On October 20, 1994, President Clinton and Vice President Gore acted to improve the accessibility of government information by opening a service called "Welcome to the White House: An Interactive Citizens' Handbook" on the Internet. This new World Wide Web service provides a single point of access to all electronic government information on the Internet. By using a free Web-browsing software program such as Mosaic or Cello, the user can access a multimedia interface to information from the White House and the Executive Branch of government, including White House documents, a virtual tour of the White House, and detailed information about Cabinet-level and independent agencies. This interface includes photographs, audio, and "hotlinks" to other government Web sites and services. You should check with your service provider for instructions on how to browse the Web. "Welcome to the White House" can be accessed at: http://www.whitehouse.gov Though the new Web server provides access to White House documents and publications, we will continue to provide these by e-mail. To receive instructions, please send a message to the following address (**do not "reply" to the memo you are now reading**): publications@whitehouse.gov In the body of your message, type "Send Info" (without quotes); no other text should be included, specifically message headers or signature lines (.sig files). The instructions will be sent to you automatically. Also, we now have a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) document that, among other things, lists certain other sources of government information. (The FAQ file is approximately 35K in size; you should check with your service provider to ensure that you can receive files of this size.) This FAQ address is an autoresponder only; any comment sent to this address will not be acknowledged. In order to obtain this, you should send an e-mail message to: faq@whitehouse.gov All of us at the White House are excited about the progress that has been made with this historic project, and we look forward to future developments. Your continued interest and participation are very important to us. Sincerely, Bill Mason Director of Correspondence for the Vice President [You will only receive one automated response per day] --- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ 110 E. Wilshire Ave / Suite G-10 /, ,\ // \ / \ \ /, ,\ Fullerton, CA 92632 / 714.526.5656 _| _ // \/ \____\ _| _ From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 17:12:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA24800 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA24794 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <23976>; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:59:13 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: A heads-up on a potential spammer Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:58:58 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just received a series of three subscription requests, in alphabetical order, for my three mailing lists here. Although this claims to be from the domain tnc.com (a domain, by the way, that doesn't have a working 'postmaster' account/alias/etc), it appears to have been generated on pluto.cs.uah.edu. The X-Mail-Agent is also disturbing. In my uncharitable mood, I suspect that this is a spammer using some sort of automated tool to subscribe to mailing lists before spamming, in order to beat subscribers-only filters. If you see this person trying to subscribe to your mailing list(s), you might want to chime in and/or keep an eye on them. - cks Sample subscription message: [information logged by my SMTP listener:] rcvdfrom pluto.cs.uah.edu ([146.229.2.78]) with SMTP from <22ndcm@tnc.com> to [the message itself:] | Received: from (localhost) by pluto.cs.uah.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) | id AA04699 for sam-fans-request@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:44:00 -0500 | Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:44:00 -0500 | From: 22ndcm@tnc.com | Message-Id: <9604272344.AA04699@pluto.cs.uah.edu> | To: sam-fans-request@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu | Subject: Subscribe | X-Mail-Agent: Spammer! v. 1.02 | | SUBSCRIBE 22ndcm@tnc.com From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 17:27:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA25371 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA25363 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id SAA27709 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:49:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA02684 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:42:45 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199604272342.SAA02684@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: An odd message I received To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:42:45 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My spam detector just went off. Note the X-Mail-Agent: line and the forged headers. FYI. From 22ndcm@tnc.com Sat Apr 27 18:20:25 1996 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id SAA02422 for arielle@taronga.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:20:24 -0500 From: 22ndcm@tnc.com Received: from pluto.cs.uah.edu (pluto.cs.uah.edu [146.229.2.78]) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id SAA25175 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:18:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from (localhost) by pluto.cs.uah.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA26634 for arielle@taronga.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:18:20 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:18:20 -0500 Message-Id: <9604272318.AA26634@pluto.cs.uah.edu> To: arielle@taronga.com Subject: Subscribe X-Mail-Agent: Spammer! v. 1.02 Status: OR SUBSCRIBE 22ndcm@tnc.com From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 17:29:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA25507 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA25501 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 27 Apr 96 17:21 PDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:21:33 -0700 (PDT) To: cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer In-Reply-To: <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Chris Siebenmann on scroll <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> > I have just received a series of three subscription requests, in > alphabetical order, for my three mailing lists here. Although this > claims to be from the domain tnc.com (a domain, by the way, that doesn't > have a working 'postmaster' account/alias/etc), it appears to have been > generated on pluto.cs.uah.edu. The X-Mail-Agent is also disturbing. I just got one of these to my personal account. Obviously the user is not too good at being stealthly and subscribing quietly. Does anybody have any ideas how to make an "approved posters" or "unapproved posters" list with Majordomo?? I require subscription to my list before one can post and I would like to keep subscription open (unmoderated) to anybody, but screen postings from new users and move them to an "approved posters" list after they prove to be legit. Man running lists is starting to become a pain in the ass. :-( b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 17:57:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27273 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail6 (mail6.netcom.com [192.100.81.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA27267 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stargame.org (bh@bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by mail6 (8.6.13/Netcom) id RAA21362; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:52:36 -0700 Received: from localhost (bh@localhost) by stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA03746; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:53:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:53:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net cc: cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 27 Apr 1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > from the quill of Chris Siebenmann on > scroll <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> > > I have just received a series of three subscription requests, in > > alphabetical order, for my three mailing lists here. Although this > > claims to be from the domain tnc.com (a domain, by the way, that doesn't > > have a working 'postmaster' account/alias/etc), it appears to have been > > generated on pluto.cs.uah.edu. The X-Mail-Agent is also disturbing. > > I just got one of these to my personal account. Obviously the user is not > too good at being stealthly and subscribing quietly. I just got one also, but it came to my list owner account and not majordomo or the list. It was "subscribe xxxx@tnc.com" coming to that account. > > Does anybody have any ideas how to make an "approved posters" or > "unapproved posters" list with Majordomo?? I require subscription to my > list before one can post and I would like to keep subscription open > (unmoderated) to anybody, but screen postings from new users and move them > to an "approved posters" list after they prove to be legit. This would be a useful feature. There are times when I don't want to go completely to moderation or use the approved poster option because I want to allow everybody to be able to post except for one or two "troublesome" users. I would like to be able to say users x and y cannot post, but everytbody else can. Brian From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 18:04:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27164 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA27151 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 27 Apr 96 17:51 PDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:51:10 -0700 (PDT) To: arielle@taronga.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re: An odd message I received In-Reply-To: <199604272342.SAA02684@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) on scroll <199604272342.SAA02684@bonkers.taronga.com> > My spam detector just went off. > > Note the X-Mail-Agent: line and the forged headers. Indeed. How does the following strike you... # dig tnc.com mx ; <<>> DiG 2.1 <<>> tnc.com mx ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 6 ;; flags: qr rd ra; Ques: 1, Ans: 3, Auth: 2, Addit: 5 ;; QUESTIONS: ;; tnc.com, type = MX, class = IN ;; ANSWERS: tnc.com. 84088 MX 520 mail.istar.net. tnc.com. 84088 MX 5 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca. tnc.com. 84088 MX 510 mail.ottawa.istar.net. # telnet nisku.blackgold.ab.ca. smtp Trying 198.53.152.12... Connected to nisku.blackgold.ab.ca. Escape character is '^]'. he220 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5 raring to go at Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:49:54 -0600 (MDT) helo ilinx.ilinx.com 250 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca hi there [204.174.66.10], wouldn't want to be in your shoes. vrfy 22ndcm 250 22nd Century Marketing <22ndcm@nisku.blackgold.ab.ca> quit 221 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca Hanging up. Good-bye and good riddance. Connection closed by foreign host. A marketing company. Huh. Surprise, surprise. It's also interesting that the message originated at U of Alabama in Huntsville. I just wonder if they are being subscribed to spam later, or somebody justs wants to flood 22ndcm's mailbox. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 18:11:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26372 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA26359 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA16049; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 02:39:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199604280039.CAA16049@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 02:39:50 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl In-Reply-To: from "Brian J. Murrell" at Apr 27, 96 05:21:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > from the quill of Chris Siebenmann on > scroll <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> > > I have just received a series of three subscription requests, in > > alphabetical order, for my three mailing lists here. Although this > > claims to be from the domain tnc.com (a domain, by the way, that doesn't > > have a working 'postmaster' account/alias/etc), it appears to have been > > generated on pluto.cs.uah.edu. The X-Mail-Agent is also disturbing. > > I just got one of these to my personal account. Obviously the user is not > too good at being stealthly and subscribing quietly. Same here. NSlookup yields: tnc.com preference = 520, mail exchanger = mail.istar.net tnc.com preference = 5, mail exchanger = nisku.blackgold.ab.ca tnc.com preference = 510, mail exchanger = mail.ottawa.istar.net tnc.com nameserver = nic.fonorola.net tnc.com nameserver = fonsrv00.fonorola.com mail.istar.net internet address = 204.191.213.2 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca internet address = 198.53.152.12 mail.ottawa.istar.net internet address = 204.191.213.2 nic.fonorola.net internet address = 198.53.64.7 fonsrv00.fonorola.com internet address = 149.99.1.3 A telnet session with nisku.blackgold.ab.ca : % telnet nisku.blackgold.ab.ca 25 Trying 198.53.152.12 ... Connected to nisku.blackgold.ab.ca. Escape character is '^]'. 220 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca ESMTP Sendmail 8.7.5 raring to go at Sat, 27 Apr 1996 8:37:53 -0600 (MDT) HELO duticai.twi.tudelft.nl 250 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca hi there [130.161.159.1], wouldn't want to be in your hoes. VRFY postmaster 550 postmaster... User unknown VRFY 22ndcm 250 22nd Century Marketing <22ndcm@nisku.blackgold.ab.ca> VRFY root 250 Operator QUIT 221 nisku.blackgold.ab.ca Hanging up. Good-bye and good riddance. Connection closed by foreign host. At least we know what "22ndcm" stands for. Doesn't look positive... Alexander Verbraeck List Manager BPR-L ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Department of Systems Engineering, Policy Analysis and Management Jaffalaan 5 P.O. Box 5015, 2600 GA Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 2783805 Secr: +31 15 2788380 Fax: +31 15 2783429 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@sepa.tudelft.nl List manager BPR-L, DYNMOD-L http://www.sepa.tudelft.nl/~alexandv/ See also ..../bpr-l.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 19:12:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA02410 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (gorplex.j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA02403 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 18:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb28.j51.com [165.254.214.60]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA21549 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960428015644.00aa7174@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:56:44 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:39 AM 4/28/96 +0200, you wrote: >A telnet session with nisku.blackgold.ab.ca : >VRFY postmaster >550 postmaster... User unknown >VRFY 22ndcm >250 22nd Century Marketing <22ndcm@nisku.blackgold.ab.ca> sysadmin exists. Do we warn them? whois doesn't say anything about who nisku.blackgold.ab.ca really is... Ken From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 19:27:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA03013 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA03007 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id WAA09189; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 22:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3182D2BB.6440@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 22:06:51 -0400 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexander Verbraeck CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, winfave@duticai.TWI.TUDelft.NL Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer References: <199604280039.CAA16049@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just sent a message on these guys to support@fonorola.net, who owns the netblock of addresses that these GDAHs are using. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 19:57:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA04406 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA04400 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:55:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 27 Apr 96 19:52 PDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:52:39 -0700 (PDT) To: bh@stargame.org Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Brian Hartsfield on scroll > This would be a useful feature. There are times when I don't want to go > completely to moderation or use the approved poster option because I want > to allow everybody to be able to post except for one or two "troublesome" > users. I would like to be able to say users x and y cannot post, but > everytbody else can. In another message I sent (whose thread I would like to end) just recently I included a patch to majordomo's resend which allows one to create a list of banned-to-post users. I'm sure most mailing list software has options to list users who can and cannot post. This does work, but will not thwart the smart spammers. These checks are usually done using the From: header, which is easily forgable. All a spammer has to do is watch a list, and he can find a From: header which will allow him to post to the most (short of moderated) closed list. What's needed is another mechanism. I'm wondering about a password required to post. Much in the same way a moderator can use an Approved: header with a secret in it (which gets stripped out before distribution) to post to a moderated list, perhaps list members should have a secret to post to a list. Anyone caught "sharing" his secret to someone who posts get's put into the "cannot-post" list (no reason he cannot still read if he likes). Any postings without the password get bounced to the moderator. I guess you could call this a "semi-moderated" list. Is that too much for the average user to handle?? Thots? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 20:01:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA04168 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA04162 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 27 Apr 96 19:45 PDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:45:04 -0700 (PDT) To: bh@stargame.org Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Brian Hartsfield on scroll > This would be a useful feature. There are times when I don't want to go > completely to moderation or use the approved poster option because I want > to allow everybody to be able to post except for one or two "troublesome" > users. I would like to be able to say users x and y cannot post, but > everybody else can. I realize that I'm really pushing the the evelope posting this here, as the bulk of this is majordomo related, however the discussion which sparked the work I did started here, and I would like to finish the majordomo part of the discussion with this message. I suggest if anybody wants to follow up on this patch and discussion, they do so with me privately and cross-post to the majordomo list (which I'm not on) if they feel it would be useful to majordomo users. I've been experimenting. It seems that one can use the "restrict_post" option to make lists of people who can post. Just make a "posting allowed list" by creating a file called .members in which you put a list of addresses from which you allow posts. Then in the .config file's "restrict_post" attribute, include .members BUT NOT . This will allow members to get postings but only .members members to send postings. Add names to .members as you deem them worthy. :-) Making a list of "banned posters" requires changes to majordomo. I've included a patch to resend to allow this to be done. Simply create a file called .banned in the lists subdirectory and list the addresses which should be denied posting privilege. The messages posted from this user will bounce to the owner. The patch also contains a fix to make the message that bounces to the owner contain the original message as a MIME "message/RFC822" encapsulation instead of just in-line as it does "out-of-the-box".. *** resend.dist Sun Feb 11 11:27:56 1996 --- resend Sat Apr 27 19:33:36 1996 *************** *** 341,346 **** --- 341,365 ---- if ( $infile == 0 ) { &bounce ("Non-member submission from [$from]"); + } else { + $infile=0; + # check for posting bannishment (if .banned exists) + $file="$listdir/$opt_l.banned"; + if (-e $file){ + if ( open (LISTFD, "<${file}") != 0 ){ + @output = grep (&addr_match($from, $_), ); + close (LISTFD); + + if ( $#output != -1 ) { + $infile = 1; + } + } else { + die("resend:a Can't open $file: $!"); + } + if ( $infile == 1 ) { + &bounce ("Submission from banned poster [$from]"); + } + } } } *************** *** 475,480 **** --- 496,503 ---- To: $to From: $sender Subject: $subject + MIME-Version: 1.0 + Content-Type: message/rfc822 EOM -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 20:27:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA05569 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA05563 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id VAA07997 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:18:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA04781 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:10:51 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199604280210.VAA04781@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Our latest spammer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:10:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Figured out at least one thing he did. Talk about lame. He grabbed everything that looked like an email address, i.e. anything in the format of something@something. He generated 70 bounces from sending to all the Message-ID's in the PAML. This one's exceptionally clueless. From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 20:57:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA07266 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toko.graphics.cornell.edu (TOKO.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.155]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA07260 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by toko.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28582; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 23:43:48 -0400 Message-Id: <9604280343.AA28582@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Our latest spammer In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 Apr 96 21:10:51 CDT." <199604280210.VAA04781@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 96 23:43:47 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Figured out at least one thing he did. Talk about lame. > >He grabbed everything that looked like an email address, i.e. anything >in the format of something@something. He generated 70 bounces from >sending to all the Message-ID's in the PAML. > >This one's exceptionally clueless. He also showed up today in news.admin.net-abuse.announce. Seems someone caught him spamming usenet. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 27 21:44:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA09728 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA09722 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 21:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000072.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.72]) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA02245 ; for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:32:18 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960428043226.006922e0@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:32:26 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Commercial Posts - What To Do? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run 2 small lists (both under majordomo). Recently my lists have been getting advertisements (usually fairly large messages - @13k) from non-members soliciting magazine subscriptions. These always (I am pretty sure) come from AOL addresses that are deleted after the messages are sent. My host site is POBOX and I don't have access to the server. Therefore, I don't believe that I can make the lists closed to postings by non-members. Does anyone have any ideas for me? My listmembers are getting irritated. Thanks, Jack Jack Schnapper * jjflash@pobox.com * http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash "Live now. Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, U.S.S. Enterprise From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 00:27:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA15503 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom2.netcom.com (netcom2.netcom.com [192.100.81.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA15497 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 00:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grafolog@localhost) by netcom2.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id HAA16767; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 07:12:56 GMT Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 07:12:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer To: Chris Siebenmann cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <96Apr27.195913edt.23976@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chris: On Sat, 27 Apr 1996, Chris Siebenmann wrote: > In my uncharitable mood, I suspect that this is a spammer using some > sort of automated tool to subscribe to mailing lists before spamming, in I suspect it is an automated tool -- because two messages before i read his spam, I had somebody elses spam, that was sent using the same mail agent, except it was offering an automated e-mail address gathering thing. << I didn't keep either message, jsut sent an advisory to the postmaster suggesting that deleting the senders account would be a very good thing from their POV. >> > order to beat subscribers-only filters. If you see this person trying to > subscribe to your mailing list(s), you might want to chime in and/or keep I had no idea which list the guy was attempting to subscribe, to, so I sent it to /dev/null/ Seems like a good idea. Maybe I should have subscribed him to clueless@c2.org ??? xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * * OR * * * * http://members.tripod.com/~graphology/index.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 08:14:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA09202 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 08:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rock.west.ora.com (rock.west.ora.com [198.112.209.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA09196 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 08:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jerry@localhost) by rock.west.ora.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) id IAA18449; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 08:02:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199604281502.IAA18449@rock.west.ora.com> From: Jerry Peek Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 08:02:26 PDT In-Reply-To: (brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell)) "Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer" (Apr 27, 19:45) References: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.0 10/31/90) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While we're talking about restricting postings and subscriptions (or, at least, requiring approval), how about making the MLM software check for a header field like this one in the message we're discussing? > X-Mail-Agent: Spammer! v. 1.02 Maybe Majordomo and other MLMs could use a system like Alan Millar's bounce-detector that looks for patterns in the mail header or body. Share info between list admins that helps us figure out how the spam software works. Maybe even get copies of the spamming software and figure out ways to recognize mail from it. ??? --Jerry Peek, jerry@ora.com From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 09:26:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA11687 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com ([206.214.98.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11681 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mon-ca5-02.ix.netcom.com (greyhave@mon-ca5-02.ix.netcom.com [199.182.130.162]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA18598 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:13:16 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:13:16 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: greyhave@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "R.Smith" Subject: Commerical posts to Lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manage several lists on different subjects, but I'm also in business, and interested in the question of whether commercial notices (not ads per se) could be presented, tastefully, to List subscribers who may find them of interest. This is difficult to talk about in the abstract, so I'll get specific: I sell used and rare books. While most book-dealers are aware of the "potential" of the Internet for pursuing their trade - there's been tons of hype on the subject - the Net is still a poor place for book-selling. The reason seems to be that there are a finite number of people who think of themselves as "book collectors" and any dealer who has a shop, runs print ads and attends antiquarian Book Fairs has a good chance of meeting this constituency. But there are tens of thousand of people who buy books on subjects that interest them, who would never consider themselves "collectors". The best example are academics subscribed to academic-discussion Lists. Generally, the Netiquette of these Lists bans commercial posts of any kind, and subscribers might agree with that ban in general - but not necessarily as an absolute rule. Because I'm also a part-time college professor - yes, I do lots of things to make a living - I subscribe to several academic Lists. One of these, now defunct, was on the subject of Russian history. The List got into a flame war and literally collapsed overnight. The moderator announced, one day, that the List was dissolving, but the List serv would continue to function for another few weeks. At that point, as an experiment, I posted a notice saying, "Sorry for this commercial intrusion, but I have a list of antiquarian books on Russian history which I'm now posting to one of the "marketplace" Usenet groups; you might like to have a look at it." End message. There were 50 books on that List; I sold 45 of them, all to subscribers to the defunct List. It was the most successful Internet ad I've ever run. My question: Does the Netiquette against commercial intrusion need to stand as an absolute rule - provided that a post is not spam, is specifically of interest to a particular List, and only makes reference to an advertisement elsewhere on the Net? If there's a consensus of strong opinion that the answer is YES, that's fine. I'm just hoping to start some vigorous but unemotional dialogue on the subject among those who might be able to recognized the validity of several points of view. Thanks for whatever comments you may offer, Richard Smith From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 09:41:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA12416 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu6.psi.com (uu6.psi.com [38.145.155.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA12410 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 09:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uu6.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12273 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 96 12:29:14 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by synchro.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA05500 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:54:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199604281454.KAA05500@synchro.com> X-Authentication-Warning: synchro.com: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Krazy Kevin detector Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:54:52 -0400 From: Chuck Cox Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It appears that Krazy Kevin has the wrong address for one of my mailing lists. Since he munges the From address, he never sees the bounces. As a result, I have an address that receives only KK's spam. Anyone have any suggestions of anything useful to do with it? - Chuck Cox From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 10:19:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA13690 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA13684 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id NAA19418 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:01:43 -0400 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id NAA14981; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:01:40 -0400 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:01:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenkintown is very boring cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Commerical posts to Lists? In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > My question: Does the Netiquette against commercial intrusion need to stand > as an absolute rule - provided that a post is not spam, is specifically of > interest to a particular List, and only makes reference to an advertisement > elsewhere on the Net? > > If there's a consensus of strong opinion that the answer is YES, that's > fine. I'm just hoping to start some vigorous but unemotional dialogue on > the subject among those who might be able to recognized the validity of > several points of view. > The problem with letting even posts like the one you made through is this: they're not annoying and probably a service when a couple of people that otherwise are normal participants in the list make them infrequently. However, the danger is in extending that to the general business public. For example, on one of the music lists I run one of the list members, one of the more active participants, publishes a small magazine. He's posted an ad or two for the magazine, and the contents of the issue relate directly to the subject of the list, and I'm probably gonna send him a couple of bucks for the magazine. So I don't really mind. If, on the other hand, cdnow.com sent in an ad saying they have products available, even ones of direct interest to the list, I would object as the message is comming from a non-participant in the list and that opens things up to any company that wants to using my list for advertising. An ad is an ad even if the ad is just giving the URL to the real ad. I run a list for pennsylvania attorneys that is just starting up, and to be honest I would really hate it and would probably shut down the thing if we started getting short, respectful ads from Westlaw, Lexis, local court reporting agencies, medical report agencies, legal software providers, etc. So the exception I would give is much smaller than yours. And there is no way I would allow any kind of ad from a nonlistmember. I've places send me ads as listowner and allow me to decide if I want to forward it on to the list or not, and that approach I don't mind. Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 11:03:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA19535 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA19524 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000128.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.128]) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA17561 ; for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:49:33 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960428174917.006cd6ac@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:49:17 -0400 To: "R.Smith" From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: Commerical posts to Lists? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:13 AM 4/28/96 -0700, R.Smith wrote: >I manage several lists on different subjects, but I'm also in business, and >interested in the question of whether commercial notices (not ads per se) >could be presented, tastefully, to List subscribers who may find them of >interest. IMO, if someone wants to do something like this on one of my lists, they should write to me and include the full copy of their ad. If I believe that the content is appropriate for the population on my list, I will post it myself. My objection is to uninvited, large posts (which also cause the digest version to launch earlier than it ordinarily would because of size) on my lists without permission. Jack Jack Schnapper * jjflash@pobox.com * http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash "Live now. Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, U.S.S. Enterprise From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 11:06:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA19494 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mhub2.tc.umn.edu (mhub2.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA19488 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 10:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub2.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 28 Apr 96 12:49:28 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-95.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Sun, 28 Apr 96 12:49:26 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 11:48:09 CST From: "Fred H. Olson" Message-Id: <91317.fholson@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Mailer: Minuet1.0_Beta_19 X-POPMail-Charset: English To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: "Interesting Free Offer" SPAM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone pursuing legal action for those responsible for the "Interesting Free Offer" or "Magazine Club Inquiry Center " spams ** ? They come along every few days and they seem to have devized a pyramid scheme like approach so third parties actually send the spams. Or maybe the third partiy references are forgeries. But the Fax number and the PO box would seem to be the way to track down them. I'd support some real action. Does anyone know how good a case could be made against them? Seeveral have come had aol From: headers lately. I dont know if those are real and whether aol users are realy involved. If so maybe they could publicize an adonition against doing this. BTW I have them (so far) filtered out so they dont get posted to my list but I hate to just delete/ignore such trash. It's a bad precident. Fred ** It has a bunch of verbage about responding by fax that includes: 1-page fax to: 718-967-1550 in the USA or via smail (first class mail or airmail) to: Magazine Club Inquiry Center Att. FREE Catalogue-by-email Dept. PO Box 990 Staten Island NY 10312-0990 -- fholson@tc.umn.edu Fred H. Olson (612)588-9532 Amateur radio: WB0YQM List manager of Cohousing-L See http://www.cohousing.org/ and Twin Cities Neighborhood issues list. see http://freenet.msp.mn.us/ I protest the assault on the First Amendment by the Telecom bill -- ADDRESS CHANGE ADDRESS CHANGE ADDRESS CHANGE 1/25/96 Use this address: fholson@tc.umn.edu NOT: fholson@uci.com Fred H. Olson (612)588-9532 Amateur radio: WB0YQM List manager of Cohousing-L See http://www.cohousing.org/ and Twin Cities Neighborhood issues list. see http://freenet.msp.mn.us/ I protest the assault on the First Amendment by the Telecom bill From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 13:31:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA01730 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA03239 for ; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id UAA04682 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:32:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA03845 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:21:13 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199604280121.UAA03845@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 20:21:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk brian@ilinx.bctel.net: > I just got one also, but it came to my list owner account and not > majordomo or the list. It was "subscribe xxxx@tnc.com" coming to that > account. Looks like they're running through the PAML, perhaps with a script hitting the addresses on the Contact: lines. Not very clever, I'd hate to see all the error messages they're generating. I got one to my personal address, too, plus to the other list I have listed. Perhaps the info about this spammer-wannabe should be posted to news.admin.net-abuse.announce and comp.mail.list-admin.policy? From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 13:34:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA01780 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA01770 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA25260 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 15:15:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199604282015.PAA25260@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: FYI: new newsgroup alt.spamjam Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 15:15:43 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just as a warning.. - ------- Forwarded Message Path: milo.mcs.anl.gov!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ns1.ilinks.net!deathboy From: deathboy@ilinks.net (DeathBoy KoASP) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.doom Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.spamjam Control: newgroup alt.spamjam Date: Sun, 28 Apr 96 07:59:47 GMT Organization: [NuKE] KoASP Products Unlimited Lines: 11 Approved: deathboy@ilinks.net Message-ID: <4lv8lk$4jl@ns1.ilinks.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-05.ilinks.net Summary: spamjam is a mailer X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #0 Keyword: mailer SpamJam is an anonymous mailer for Windows95. It also includes a full functioning Finger, Whois, & NSlookup capabilities. Designed to anonymously Bomb Scam/spammers out of their accounts. Can be used as a regular SMTP/POP3 Mailer as well. thanks, John Hale Jr. The Author - ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 18:27:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA24343 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA24296 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA10127 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:21:18 +0100 From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Commerical posts to Lists? Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 23:22:42 GMT Message-Id: References: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com>, R.Smith wrote: >I manage several lists on different subjects, but I'm also in business, and >interested in the question of whether commercial notices (not ads per se) >could be presented, tastefully, to List subscribers who may find them of >interest. Well, for starters, I don't allow automatic posting of anything by non members. That removes the problem of unsolicited stuff. I had a request today about a commercial posting and offered this: Send me the text (since you couldn't post it to the list anyway). If it's short, and not intrusive, then it goes to the list with a covering note, which will indicate that the sender is not on the list, and responses should be sent directly to them. If it's long, then the full text will be put on the mail server and an announcement will be posted to the list explaining that the text is available, and giving instructions on how to retrieve it. In the past, the comments I've posted are something like. "'On the safe edge' is a new book by Trevor Jacques, about sadomasochism. It may be of interest to some list members. More details can be retrieved by sending a message with the subject send misc/safe-edge to uk-motss-SERVER@dircon.co.uk" Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 18:30:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA24341 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA24289 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA10124 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:21:13 +0100 From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: A heads-up on a potential spammer Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 23:17:01 GMT Message-Id: References: Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Brian Hartsfield wrote: >On Sat, 27 Apr 1996, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >> Does anybody have any ideas how to make an "approved posters" or >> "unapproved posters" list with Majordomo?? I require subscription to my >> list before one can post and I would like to keep subscription open >> (unmoderated) to anybody, but screen postings from new users and move them >> to an "approved posters" list after they prove to be legit. > >This would be a useful feature. There are times when I don't want to go >completely to moderation or use the approved poster option because I want >to allow everybody to be able to post except for one or two "troublesome" >users. I would like to be able to say users x and y cannot post, but >everytbody else can. This is more or less what I do; with some of the lists that I run, the first few postings that anyone sends will be held for my attention. When I'm satisfied that they're genuine, I authorise them for future automatic posts. I've not been spammed yet... Mind you, if people realise that this is how things work, they may well try to post a couple of innocuous things before a spam. I also now (for almost a year) require people to read the FAQ before being added. Buried in the middle, after the guidelines for posting, is a request that they confirm acceptance of the guidelines (which prohibit commercial posts) before their subscription is activated. If they just write back and say "Add me" I send the FAQ again. This happens until they either read it, or go away, or ask why I keep sending it to them, which elicits a suggestion that perhaps they might like to consider reading it. There are a lot of people who don't bother to read and reply appropriately; it might keep some of them off the list, but I'd rather have this extra overhead than have people who join to spam, or try to claim when they start flame wars that they didn't know what the guidelines are. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 18:56:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA26514 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA26505 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sun, 28 Apr 96 18:49 PDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 18:49:15 -0700 (PDT) To: nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Nigel Whitfield on scroll > This is more or less what I do; with some of the lists that I run, > the first few postings that anyone sends will be held for my > attention. When I'm satisfied that they're genuine, I authorise them > for future automatic posts. I've not been spammed yet... As I pointed earlier however, this usually depends on From: headers. Bet I could get a posting into your list. Well not now that I've told you. :-) All I have to do is subscribe to your list, watch for a From: header (or a few to be sure said user is what you would consider genuine) and then forge it. Whammo, spammo. This is why I pose the question of list users having a password (similar to an "Approve:" password) which they use to post to the list. Even better would be requiring messages be digitally signed and only messages that are signed by who they say they are get in. This of course relies on wide-spread use of something like PGP. Not yet. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 19:26:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA29155 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 19:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA29113 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 19:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jfh.crl.com (crl8.crl.com) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA18573 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 28 Apr 1996 19:15:38 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960429022110.00d62b14@165.113.1.22> X-Sender: jfh@165.113.1.22 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 19:21:10 -0700 To: Jack Schnapper , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jack Hamilton Subject: Re: Commercial Posts - What To Do? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:32 AM 4/28/96 -0400, Jack Schnapper wrote: >I run 2 small lists (both under majordomo). Recently my lists have been >getting advertisements (usually fairly large messages - @13k) from >non-members soliciting magazine subscriptions. These always (I am pretty >sure) come from AOL addresses that are deleted after the messages are sent. > >My host site is POBOX and I don't have access to the server. Therefore, I >don't believe that I can make the lists closed to postings by non-members. It takes some negotiation with customer service, but it can be done - you just can't do it yourself. -------------------------- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 28 22:41:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA12279 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 22:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA12272 for ; Sun, 28 Apr 1996 22:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lgerson.mcs.net (lgerson.pr.mcs.net [204.95.50.250]) by kitten.mcs.com (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA03141 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:35:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199604290535.AAA03141@kitten.mcs.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Lisa Gerson" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:40:05 -0600 Subject: Re: Commercial Posts - What To Do? Reply-to: lgerson@mcs.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >My host site is POBOX and I don't have access to the server. > >Therefore, I don't believe that I can make the lists closed to > >postings by non-members. > > It takes some negotiation with customer service, but it can be done > - you just can't do it yourself. > I had them change my list to subscribers-only posting and it didn't take long. Make sure you tell them to include the digest version of your list if you have one. Lisa =========================================================== Lisa Gerson - (lgerson@mcs.net) list-manager, modslist Mods List Home Page - http://www.mcs.net/~lgerson/modslist/ =========================================================== From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 02:56:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA03347 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA03333 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 02:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA20130 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:40:45 +0100 From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Re[2]: A heads-up on a potential spammer Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 09:17:14 GMT Message-Id: References: Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Brian J. Murrell wrote: >from the quill of Nigel Whitfield on scroll > >> This is more or less what I do; with some of the lists that I run, >> the first few postings that anyone sends will be held for my >> attention. When I'm satisfied that they're genuine, I authorise them >> for future automatic posts. I've not been spammed yet... > >As I pointed earlier however, this usually depends on From: headers. Bet I >could get a posting into your list. Well not now that I've told you. :-) You might get one, as it won't be foolproof. But there are a few other things that I check too. Messages over 150 lines, for instance, are held pending my approval. At present the software just checks the first 5 lines for words like 'subscribe' but that can be set to any length, and any regular expression. And I can search on any pattern in the headers, like 'eagle.ais.net' for instance. It might be possible once, but it'd be hard. And I think a lot of people who might be minded to do this simply don't pay any attention to the FAQ, and so don't realise that even when they've been sent it, they're still not added. I'm working on adding something along these lines to automated e-mail or web subscriptions; I have the prototype web interface running in house, and if the list is defined in the master config file as requiring an acceptance condition, it displays the subscription form and adds a field that has to be filled in with whatever the FAQ requires, which might be, for instance "I accept the conditions of membership for uk-motss" Of course, it'll never deter the most bloody minded of spammers, but having to read the whole FAQ to find the magic phrase will deter casual ones, and probably cut down on the number of malicious third party subscriptions - as long as FAQs differ enough to prevent a simple scan from retrieving the acceptance phrase. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 11:11:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA12456 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver3.tiac.net (maildeliver3.tiac.net [199.0.65.107]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA12253 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by maildeliver3.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id OAA23429 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:08:59 -0400 Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA22650 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:04:55 -0400 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199604291804.OAA22650@worldmachine.com> Subject: Bad subscriber: ivanm@tisc.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:04:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, Just got another suspicious subscription to one of my lists: ivanm@tisc.com "telnet tisc.com smtp", and running EXPN and VRFY yield "user unknown". I can't remember if this is the same user/host that people had just reported on this list, but I've gotten numerous MAGAZINE spams from KK recently, so I'm on the lookout for any suspicous activity. It would really blow if KK et al are now subscribing these fake addresses *before* spamming. I'm sure these losers are on THIS list too... ugh. BTW, I'm using SmartList with subscriber-only posting. A nice (but tricky?) enhancement would be to enforce a "probation period" whereby new subscribers must wait X days before being put on the "accept" list. This would work well with the default 4 email-bouces that SmartList allows before auto-unsubscribing an address. Stephen? =) -Eric List Owner for Level 42 Digest, Go West Digest, Incognito Digest -- Eric J. Hansen .............................. http://www.worldmachine.com/eric Developer, Worldmachine Technologies ............ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 12:11:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA21722 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA21706 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA03504; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:06:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:06:06 -0400 Message-ID: <960429150605_283351418@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Szanzer@aol.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The user "szanzer@aol.com" has been terminated for a Krazy Kevin-style spam. Unfortunately, I seem to have caught them right after they sent the spam, but the account has definitely been closed. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 12:19:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA21501 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA21493 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb20.j51.com [165.254.214.52]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA22288 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960429190700.00de94f0@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:07:00 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Kevin is out of control Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Krazy Kevin has tried to spam a list of mine three times in the last five days (every two days). Does this guy have some sort of detector to see that the mail went through? No, of course not. He's just willing to destroy your lists and mine in order to make his dollar. We need to stop him. Ken Menken From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 14:21:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA04725 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from azathoth.ops.aol.com (azathoth.ops.aol.com [152.163.64.239]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA04696 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brad@localhost) by azathoth.ops.aol.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/AOL-0.0.3) id QAA04351; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Brad Knowles" Message-Id: <9604291659.ZM4349@azathoth.ops.aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:59:18 -0400 In-Reply-To: "R.Smith" "Commerical posts to Lists?" (Apr 28, 9:13am) References: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: BKnowles@aol.net Organization: America Online, Inc. X-Telephone: (703) 453-4148 X-Telefacsimile: (703) 453-4005 X-PGP-New-Fingerprint: DA 2A 59 B1 A8 BD 4C B2 B0 41 CE 6E BD C3 15 54 X-PGP-Old-Fingerprint: AD 47 4C BF 61 6C 4D 7C 45 EF 6B E5 23 FF 11 18 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 10oct95) To: "R.Smith" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Commerical posts to Lists? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Apr 28, 9:13am, R.Smith wrote: > My question: Does the Netiquette against commercial intrusion need to stand > as an absolute rule - provided that a post is not spam, is specifically of > interest to a particular List, and only makes reference to an advertisement > elsewhere on the Net? IMO, yes, it does need to be an absolute rule. It's okay to have a line or three in your .sig that tells folks what kind of work you do for a living and to go vist your web site or somesuch, but that's basically passive advertising. Active advertising (even if it's just "I've posted a list of 50 books I'm selling in alt.used-books, you might want to see it") is decidedly non-kosher. That is, unless there is an explicit policy of the group allowing small commericial posts. In other words, Whatever the policy is, you should absolutely adhere to it. If you don't like it and are an active contributing participant, it's okay to campaign to get the policy changed, but it's not okay to violate it. -- Brad Knowles MIME/PGP: BKnowles@aol.net Mail Systems Administrator for America Online, Inc. Ph: (703) 453-4148 PGP keys available from pgp-public-keys@pgp.ai.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 15:25:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA13764 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shoreside.com (shoreside.com [206.40.34.81]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA13648 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 15:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlick@localhost) by shoreside.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA01038; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:57:52 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: commercial postings In-Reply-To: <199604290800.BAA21042@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a handful of lists which for about three years have not had a specific restriction on commercial postings, and it has worked out well. The restrictions we do have: must be strictly relevant to the list, must not be too large, must not be repeated too often have been adequate to keep away most problems. Since many lists already allow only subscriber posts, that would address the concerns of non-subscriber posts some have had. Most of the "commercial" postings have been the individuals selling collectibles or doing fan t-shirt sales. But one of the more successful examples is that of a woman who works for the recording label of a band I run a list for, who is also a representative of the official fan club for the band. She initially came to me asking if she could periodically post info on the club and their mail-order merchandise. After I familiarized her with our policies she proceeded to actually follow the list, and post all sorts of information, from when the group is in the studio, when new singles and albums are expected, etc. I can easily imagine that if I had set all sorts of restrictions on her from the start that she wouldn't have bothered to participate like this. The point I'm trying to make is that it is not commercial postings per se that are the problem. The problem is that some amount of commercial postings are unacceptable. This amount varies, but I think it is easier to delineate what is and is not acceptable without specifically thinking of commercial postings. You'll note that the above restrictions also cover chain letters, sob stories, and urban legends because they aren't relevant, and posting pictures because they are too large. They are flexible and general enough that the policy shouldn't have to change too much to accomodate future innovations in unacceptable traffic. I also believe that the people who come to you to ask for permission to post or who just go through the procedure for subscribing and/or registering for posting priveleges are by and large not going to be the ones causing problems. They have invested a certain amount of time in doing this and probably aren't going to intentionally jeopardize this when they know they can just as easily get kicked off and barred from ever returning. I've had by far more problems with the hit-n-run "Krazy Kevin" type magazine spams and the ubiqitous chain letters than any other commercial postings so far. Of course the definitions of how relevant, how large, how often, and who is allowed to post will vary slightly by the list, but I think these are the right metrics to be measuring rather than some of the others being used. -- James Lick -- jlick@tcp.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 16:41:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA27383 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA27367 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13386; Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:37:30 PDT Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 29 Apr 96 16:37:30 PDT Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07517; Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:37:29 PDT Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:37:29 PDT From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9604292337.AA07517@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Be afraid - be VERY afraid Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just received the following message. It truly frightens me. Forwarded message: > From interamp.com!exd57829 Mon Apr 29 01:16:56 1996 > X-Sender: exd57829@pop3.interramp.com (Unverified) > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > X-Priority: 1 (Highest) > Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 00:14:19 +0130 > To: (Recipient list suppressed) > From: exd57829@interamp.com (LIGHTNING BOLT v1.0) > Subject: LIGHTING BOLT v1.0 Electrifies the 'NET! >>>FREE OFFER<<< > > NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM! > > (Lighting Bolt v1.0) > > MADE EASY FOR "ANYONE" TO LOAD & USE! > Will Strip Email Addresses, Sort and Send!! > Call 1-800-351-8085 For More Information > <<<>>> > > > This is a SIMPLE to use UNIX SHELL PROGRAM. Both Lightning Bolt programs 1 > and 2 are designed to run directly off your Internet Providers computer > (shell account). This program is designed for simplicity of use for ANYONE > to use. Once the programs are loaded on to the Shell Account, you can log > off and let the ISP's computer take over and complete the job! This is NOT > a PPP connection like FLOODGATE or EUDORA or FREEDOM where your > computer/program is subject to TIMEOUTS and BUGS. >>>>There are NO TEDIOUS > configuration requirements!<<<<< Simply load these powerful programs and > sign off ... go play golf or take a nap. These programs are designed to run > on their own! > > > 1ST PROGRAM: > > - SEARCHES AND FINDS EMAIL ADDRESSES > - SORTS AND REMOVES DUPLICATE ADDRESSES > - PINGS EMAIL LIST TO VERIFY ACCOUNTS ARE ACTIVE THEN > AUTOMATICALLY REMOVES NON DELIVERABLES > > > 2ND PROGRAM : > > - AUTOMATICALLY SENDS EMAIL *** YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STAY LOGGED ON. > You can send MILLIONS of email, depending of the speed of your mail server! > > It is NOW EASY to down load and send massive amounts of email addresses > from NEWSGROUPS, MAILING LISTS, AOL, COMPUSERVE, PRODIGY, DELPHI, ect. > > PROGRAMS WRITTEN BY A CERTIFIED UNIX SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR. > > PROGRAM#1 will run continously 24 hours a day. > Search and Find Email addresses from the 'Net. Then the program sorts, > removes dups and pings the addresses. > > PROGRAM #2 AUTOMATICALLY sends ALL your email. There is NO LIMIT on the > capacity! BIG BENIFIT: (You DO NOT have to stay Logged On!) > > You will receive STEP BY STEP "easy to follow" instruction on: > How to find, search and download email addresses from ALL Newsgroups, > Mailing Lists and ALL the Online providers. How to AUTOMATE sort email, > remove dups and ping your email list. How to set up a shell account. How > to load these MARVELOUS programs to send your message to an UNLIMITED > amount of email addresses! > > The entire process is so simplified, that even a beginner can IMMEDIATELY > use these programs. > > The cost of both Lightning Bolt programs is $249.00 including a clearly > written and illustrated, easy to follow instructions. > > FREE OFFER: > > ORDER BEFORE THE 5TH OF MAY AND RECEIVE 150,000 EMAIL ADDRESSES TO START > YOUR ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN. > All Free email addresses are .com, .net, .org ... > > Please send payment to: > > Enuchs. Etc. > 1-800-351-8085 > 5901 J. Wyoming Blvd NE Suite #284 > Albuquerque, NM 87109 > > Call the 800# ONLY ... we do not reply by email. > We'll Be Happy to DIRECTLY Answer Any Questions! > > <<<<>>>>> > > > > Best Success, > > Eunchs, Etc. > 5901 J. Wyoming Blvd NE Suite #284 > Albuquerque, NM 87109 > > > From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 16:56:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA29522 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA29495 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) id QAA09012; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:49:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199604292349.QAA09012@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 16:56:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Be afraid - be VERY afraid Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe Smith quotes something that made him ill: > > [ugh. snip snip snip] > > Enuchs. Etc. > > 1-800-351-8085 > > 5901 J. Wyoming Blvd NE Suite #284 > > Albuquerque, NM 87109 > > Call the 800# ONLY ... we do not reply by email. > > We'll Be Happy to DIRECTLY Answer Any Questions! Soooooo...has anyone called the 800 number yet? As I understand it, you have to pay for every 800 call you get... I'm calling it now. Gosh, it hypes itself once you call it, too. Only 249 bucks. It's sooooooooooooooo tempting to put them on RL marketers' junk mail mailing lists. --- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ 110 E. Wilshire Ave / Suite G-10 /, ,\ // \ / \ \ /, ,\ Fullerton, CA 92632 / 714.526.5656 _| _ // \/ \____\ _| _ From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 17:11:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA00924 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberport.com (puma.cyberport.com [204.134.75.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA00914 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hippo.cyberport.com (kevin@hippo.cyberport.com [204.134.75.2]) by cyberport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA14680; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:58:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:58:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Kevin Rosenberg To: Joe Smith cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Be afraid - be VERY afraid In-Reply-To: <9604292337.AA07517@tardis.tymnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM! > > [...] > > Enuchs. Etc. > > 1-800-351-8085 > > 5901 J. Wyoming Blvd NE Suite #284 > > Albuquerque, NM 87109 > > Call the 800# ONLY ... we do not reply by email. > > We'll Be Happy to DIRECTLY Answer Any Questions! Egads. Sounds like the work of Jeff Slaton in Albuquerque. It seems pretty obvious why they won't respond to e-mail, doesn't it! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Rosenberg | CyberPort Station Chief System Administrator | The Finest Internet Service Possible! kevin@cyberport.com | http://www.cyberport.com Finger kevin@cyberport.com for PGP Public Key -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 17:56:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA06771 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA06761 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA19700; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 17:34:23 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA11907; Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:48:05 -0700 Date: Mon, 29 Apr 96 16:48:05 -0700 Message-Id: <9604292348.AA11907@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Be afraid - be VERY afraid Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nauseated is more like it. >> NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM! >> >> (Lighting Bolt v1.0) >> >> MADE EASY FOR "ANYONE" TO LOAD & USE! But this is not as fearsome as it might seem to begin with. The reason: 1. Many shell account ISPs will not let you run programs after logout. 2. Parties using this program will be VERY easy to identify, if for no other reason than the protocol traffic they generate. It would be easy for any responsible ISP to write a program that would detect someone using a program like this if necessary. Successful parasites are subtle -- this is not. A disease that causes such virulent effect on a host will evoke a cure more quickly than one that is simply annoying. Remember automated phone solicitation systems? They were outlawed so fast one would think even Congress had a brain. BTW, I called the 800 number as well. Talk about obnoxious. They offer (if you order by Wednesday) 150,000 "starter" e-mail addresses to get your Internet ad campaign going. Oh, well. One more SPAM filter to write. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 29 21:29:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA06698 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA06670 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA15574 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:18:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199604300418.WAA15574@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Commerical posts to Lists? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 22:18:40 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > My question: Does the Netiquette against commercial intrusion need to stand > as an absolute rule - provided that a post is not spam, is specifically of > interest to a particular List, and only makes reference to an advertisement > elsewhere on the Net? The Netiquette in question is not "don't post commercial messages to mailing lists" but rather "follow the policies of the lists you subscribe to". There are lists that allow people to post ads and lists that don't. My list policy is as follows: * The list is not meant to be used as an advertising forum, though short notices of the form "I have for sale; please email me for a full list" are acceptable as long as the items for sale are directly relevant to the topic of the mailing list. My lists are closed to nonsubscribers, so none of that sort of thing gets through unless I specifically approve it (which I do from time to time; there's at least one retailer for whom I'll pass along relevant notices of things he has for sale). -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 00:21:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA16720 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:59:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA14416 for ; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.5/BuGless_1.02) id UAA22717 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:20:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199604291820.UAA22717@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 20:20:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Hansen"'s message as of 1996 Apr 29 Mon 14:04. <199604291804.OAA22650@worldmachine.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bad subscriber: ivanm@tisc.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Eric J. Hansen" wrote: >BTW, I'm using SmartList with subscriber-only posting. A nice (but tricky?) >enhancement would be to enforce a "probation period" whereby new subscribers >must wait X days before being put on the "accept" list. This would work well >with the default 4 email-bouces that SmartList allows before auto-unsubscribing >an address. Stephen? =) Though feasible, such an enhancement would not work out well in practice, I think. The better solution would be what some listservs already do, i.e. require a reply from the applicant with a certain keyvalue in the reply, before putting him/her on the list. And this is probably what SmartList will be supporting (after I'm done with my exams :-). -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Well, if we're going to make a party of it, let's nibble Nobby's nuts!" From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 05:13:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA12424 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA12398 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000224.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.224]) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26809 ; for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:00:17 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960430120027.00680bbc@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:00:27 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Magazine Spams Stopped!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I changed the "restrict_post" option to exclude all non-members and changed the "max_size" to 7k. Yesterday the max_size trapped another magazine spam on both of my lists (twice on one??). Having both of these options changed has given me the solution of not only keeping the spams away, but also stopping anyone who has inadvertantly quoted an entire digest. Thanks to everyone who sent me these ideas! I couldn't have done it without you! Jack Jack Schnapper * jjflash@pobox.com * http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash "Live now. Make now always the most precious time. Now will never come again." - Captain Jean-Luc Picard, U.S.S. Enterprise From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 05:41:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA14513 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA14507 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 05:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604301228.FAA14507@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0867; Tue, 30 Apr 96 08:25:47 EDT Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 08:26:34 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: note of 04/30/96 08:19 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 B183, 2J145 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Magazine Spams Stopped!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jack Schnapper wrote: >I changed the "restrict_post" option to exclude all non-members and chan >the "max_size" to 7k. Yesterday the max_size trapped another magazine s >on both of my lists (twice on one??). Having both of these options chan >has given me the solution of not only keeping the spams away, but also >stopping anyone who has inadvertantly quoted an entire digest. Hi, I just joined this list recently and probably missed the beginning of this conversation. Can someone recap briefly how to set up the Majordomo restrict-post option, especially if I want to give posting permission to two sets of individuals: list members and non-members who have been "approved" for posting? Our list's wrinkle is that it is gated to a newsgroup, and we want to allow newsgroup posts by "approved" persons to flow through to the mailing list, while stopping the spams. Thanks, Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net ** It's a gaggle of geese and a pride of lions. But did you ** ** know? It's an unkindness of ravens and a murder of crows. ** From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 09:26:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA04802 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA04794 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id JAA27014; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:12:23 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA16073; Tue, 30 Apr 96 08:24:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 08:24:30 -0700 Message-Id: <9604301524.AA16073@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: What then? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:20 PM 4/29/96 +0200, srb@cuci.nl wrote: >And this is probably >what SmartList will be supporting (after I'm done with my exams :-). >-- >Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl > Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Stephen, Just out of curiosity, what happens to SmartList after you graduate? And when is that? -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 09:58:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09211 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09184 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id JAA13260; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:47:50 -0700 Received: from hera.cuci.nl(194.183.100.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma013258; Tue Apr 30 09:47:06 1996 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.5/BuGless_1.02) id SAA08259 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:51:53 +0200 Message-Id: <199604301651.SAA08259@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:51:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: Alan Deikman's message as of 1996 Apr 30 Tue 8:24. <9604301524.AA16073@znyx.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What then? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman wrote: >At 08:20 PM 4/29/96 +0200, srb@cuci.nl wrote: >>And this is probably >>what SmartList will be supporting (after I'm done with my exams :-). >Just out of curiosity, what happens to SmartList after you graduate? It will continue to be freely available (just as procmail will be). In fact, development will continue (it has been put on a very low backburner in the past 6 months; running an Internet provider singlehandedly *and* doing Physics exams turns out to be a more than full time job) with renewed strength. If there is one thing I hate, it is freely source distributable packages that go commercial (well, that fact in itself is not that much of a problem, if only the source would still stay available). Doesn't it irritate you if you've contributed patches here and there, provided extensive bug reports, feature suggestions, only then to find out that all these niceties can be gotten if you are willing to *pay* for the next version? But, since earning money now really becomes a necessity... :-) Maybe, in addition to the regular improved versions, I'll develop one or two GUI frontends for both programs which can then be distributed as shareware (with source!, should be a novel concept :-). >And when is that? If all is well, this will be the 7th of May (next week). If I pass my last exam. If not, I'll have to redo that (obviously), but that will be on a six month schedule, and therefore I'll be having time to work on other things as well. And, to make this contribution to this mailinglist readworthy for people not interested in me or SmartList or procmail: after graduating, I'll finish my ongoing work on my SPAM filter. I've, by now, collected a wide enough range of E-mail SPAM that allows me to develop a filter that should be able to discriminate accurately enough to be useable. The SPAM filter will, of course, become a standard (though optional) part of SmartList. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Father's Day Special at the local clinic -- Vasectomy! From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 13:26:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA02467 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zipcode.atg.aol.com (zipcode.atg.aol.com [152.163.8.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA02461 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praetor.office.aol.com (atropos@praetor.office.aol.com [152.163.64.66]) by zipcode.atg.aol.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA08421; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:11:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "David B. O'Donnell" X-Sender: atropos@praetor.office.aol.com Reply-To: atropos@aol.net To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Stuartmall@aol.com, latest Krazy Kevin spammer Message-ID: Organization: "America Online, Inc." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Unfortunately, I missed this one as well... but by less than 10 minutes. The account "stuartmall" has been terminated. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 14:12:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA05654 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loiosh.kei.com (loiosh.kei.com [192.88.144.32]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA05648 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA28878; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:59:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199604302059.QAA28878@loiosh.kei.com> To: "R.Smith" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Commerical posts to Lists? In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> References: <2.2.16.19960428080344.24c728f6@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Attribution: ckd Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.52) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk RS> == R Smith RS> I manage several lists on different subjects, but I'm also in RS> business, and interested in the question of whether commercial RS> notices (not ads per se) could be presented, tastefully, to List RS> subscribers who may find them of interest. As others have said, "it depends on the list". My usual recommendation to them is to put a pointer to their web page in their .signature (while keeping it to 4 lines or less), then make relevant participatory posts (i.e. not just gratuitous posts to get the .signature seen). The infrequent and tasteful posting of an actual ad is fine, too, basically as long as it's topical and of interest to many. (Examples on one list, which is about a particular MLB team, include "Xxxxx is selling the highlights tape for $y.yy, or you can mail order it from Zzzz for $ww.ww for those not close to an Xxxxx store", though in that case the person posting it wasn't benefitting financially from the ad either.) -- Christopher Davis * * "As this court has noted above, cryptographic source code is speech." --Judge Marilyn Patel, U.S. District Court, Northern District of California (in Bernstein v. U.S. Department of State) From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 14:17:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA05792 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA05786 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id NAA14382; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:56:58 -0700 Received: from uumail3.netcom.com(163.179.3.53) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma014380; Tue Apr 30 13:56:25 1996 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id NAA08013; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:50:34 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA06044; Tue, 30 Apr 96 13:00:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 13:00:29 -0700 Message-Id: <9604302000.AA06044@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk But what the heck. Thanks, David, for getting the SPAM accounts killed, but it seems to me that AOL is contributing to this problem in a big way. I have access to about 100 "10 free hours on AOL" diskettes, part of the AOL marketing campaign to become the biggest on-line subscriber. They get mailed all over the place. To me. To my employees. To employees that have left. To my parents. EVERYONE. If I can pick up 1,000 hours of free time without trying, I'll bet this "Krazy Kevin" can get a lot more than that. So what if you kill his account. It just means he doesn't have to pay for the account he used to spam us! He just signs on with a new pseudonym, using a new diskette, and away he goes. This keeps up for literally hundreds of iterations. Have I read this right? Or is there something AOL can/has done to stop this? To be fair, I also get lots of Compuserve trial offers, but not as many. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 14:26:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA07478 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA07465 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604302123.OAA07465@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4731; Tue, 30 Apr 96 23:21:17 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 2163; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:21:18 +0200 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 23:20:04 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 30 Apr 96 13:00:29 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if spammers couldn't get online for free with AOL, they would pay the $20 to get online with another unsuspecting ISP. They may be operating on a small budget, but it's not THAT small. Eric From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 15:12:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA10317 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA10294 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:56:27 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA03924; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:54:12 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:54:12 -0400 Message-ID: <960430175408_481645904@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: alan@znyx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-04-30 17:17:33 EDT, alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) writes: > Have I read this right? Or is there something AOL can/has done > to stop this? To be fair, I also get lots of Compuserve > trial offers, but not as many. In order to create an account on AOL, you must have a valid credit card or checking account number. We do not allow multiple accounts at a given address without special dispensation. Lipsitz is managing to circumvent this policy in a fashion I am not yet familiar with; it is possible that he has obtained a program which is used to defraud credit card companies. In any event, our legal and security departments are investigating. Once they are able to determine the source of Lipsitz' access, I am sure they will cut it (and him) off. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 15:56:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA13792 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA13785 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfrench (ip-pdx02-44.teleport.com [206.163.120.108]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA15883 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199604302243.PAA15883@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: Re: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:20 PM 4/30/96 +0200, you wrote: >At the risk of pointing out the obvious, if spammers couldn't get online >for free with AOL, they would pay the $20 to get online with another >unsuspecting ISP. They may be operating on a small budget, but it's not >THAT small. And even if they could get on, use up 10 hours of free time and then cancel the account, wouldn't they still have to set up an account first? Giving either a credit card or checking account info. Sounds easy enough to track down to me. (okay, okay, they stole the credit cards and the check books!) Rae French rfrench@teleport.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 16:11:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14428 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA14417 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA09441; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:58:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199604302258.RAA09441@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: Re: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:58:58 -0500 (CDT) Cc: alan@znyx.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <960430175408_481645904@emout13.mail.aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at Apr 30, 1996 05:54:12 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a9] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PMDAtropos@aol.com write: > Once they are able to determine the source of Lipsitz' access, I am > sure they will cut it (and him) off. Boy, if AOL was to take Krazy Kevin down permanently, that would be the end of the debate over whether or not AOL is an asset to or a resource sink upon the net. -- Chip Rosenthal Ban excessive reposts: /^X-Mailer: Mozilla/h:j Unicom Systems Development From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 30 17:32:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA18469 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA18463 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) id RAA09117; Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605010015.RAA09117@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 17:15:15 +0000 In-Reply-To: <960430175408_481645904@emout13.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: I hate to criticize AOL, but.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnell writes: > > Have I read this right? Or is there something AOL can/has done > > to stop this? To be fair, I also get lots of Compuserve > > trial offers, but not as many. > > In order to create an account on AOL, you must have a valid credit card or > checking account number. We do not allow multiple accounts at a given address > without special dispensation. There have been newspaper (etc.) articles about this, as well as "instructions" in hacker zines. Basically all you need is an AOL trial disk -- you enter plausible but bogus credit card and address info, which is *not* validated in real time but by some delayed batch process (at some point it took overnight; this might be improved by now) and you can spam away to your heart's content until the account is zapped by the validation procedure. You might only get a few minutes -- pehaps an enterprising journalist might want to experiment -- but that's plenty of time to upload and spam. And the only trace you've left is the location of the dialup you used, and the serial number of the trial disk (presumably records are kept of those, but probably don't tell much). This could only be blocked by "instant" credit card verification (expensive) or delaying the ability to send Internet mail or post news until verification, which interferes with AOL's marketing efforts ("get online in ten minutes", etc.) If this is what KK is doing, though, it definitely sounds like fraud, and tracing him down from the PO box and telephone number can't be that hard -- if you have a law enforcement agency to help. Otherwise, all I can suggest is that AOL try to install filters to trap the PO box and phone number strings in outgoing e-mail. I'm getting a pair of these a day. My solution is just to expose his identity and location, and let the punk hacker wannabees use him for target practice. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com