From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 05:12:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA23035 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 05:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA22992 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 05:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA29741; Wed, 1 May 1996 07:57:51 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 07:57:51 -0400 Message-ID: <960501075751_482019708@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Dealing with Spammable Material, 3 May - 14 May 1996 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I will be out of the country from 3-14 May 1996 and, as such, will be going NOMAIL on these lists. Please direct emergency notifications of e-mail spams to David Jackson, djackson@aol.net, during my absence. David is not subscribed to these lists so he will not see notifications posted here. Lest anyone assume otherwise, AOL does *NOT* support, encourage or endorse Internet abuse. Our legal and security departments have been made aware of the recent spate of "Krazy Kevin" stupidity, and they have been updated with new information after each spam. He *will* be stopped. In the meanwhile, I encourage you (again) to set your lists to permit posting by subscribers only, if your list software has such a setting. It is generally a good policy to adopt for spam prevention. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 07:11:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA27029 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 07:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-17lssc (STL-17LSSC.ARMY.MIL [150.211.90.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA27014 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 07:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605011401.HAA27014@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by 0.STL-17LSSC.ARMY.MIL id aa04473; 1 May 96 8:55 CDT Date: Wed, 1 May 96 8:50:24 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: list-managers@greatcircle.COM Subject: Krazy Kevin = Kevin Lipsitz? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Do I understand correctly that "Krazy Kevin" is someone named [Kevin] Lipsitz? If so, a search of two national white-pages directories turned up only one such individual: Kevin J. Lipsitz Belmont Pl Staten Island, NY 10301 (718) 967-1234 Of course, from personal experience, I know that neither of these white pages databases is reliably comprehensive, so there may be other such people with the same name (or with a phone under another name, or just initials, etc.). Cheers, Rich From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 09:14:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA06187 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (gorplex.j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA06180 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb28.j51.com [165.254.214.60]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA24438; Wed, 1 May 1996 11:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960501160314.00744c50@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 12:03:14 -0400 To: Rich Zellich , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: Krazy Kevin = Kevin Lipsitz? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Congrats - I just called the number, got the tape: "experienced callers may press the * key right now to skip this message. Hi! You've reached Krazy Kevin's place..." OK, we've got him. A previous writer suggested that he's violated the law. True? Any civil liabilities here? It seems like AOL has lost a lot of money and time over this guy... At 08:50 AM 5/1/96 CDT, you wrote: >Do I understand correctly that "Krazy Kevin" is someone named [Kevin] >Lipsitz? If so, a search of two national white-pages directories >turned up only one such individual: > > Kevin J. Lipsitz > Belmont Pl > Staten Island, NY 10301 > (718) 967-1234 > >Of course, from personal experience, I know that neither of these white >pages databases is reliably comprehensive, so there may be other such >people with the same name (or with a phone under another name, or just >initials, etc.). > >Cheers, >Rich > From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 09:26:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA06851 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA06843 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb28.j51.com [165.254.214.60]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24777 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 12:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960501161454.007460b8@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 12:14:54 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Project Genesis Subject: Paydirt Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I didn't listen to the end of the message. Guess what he leaves on the tape? krazykev@kjl.com Let's be honest. We don't want to attempt legal action - either variety - when we can solve the problem ourselves. Let's warn him first, and then pursue more convincing means if necessary. Anyone want to write the warning? whois kjl.com Kevin Jay Lipsitz (KJL-DOM) PO Box 120990 Staten Island, NY 10312-0990 USA Domain Name: KJL.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Lipsitz, Kevin Jay (KJL2) krazykev@KJL.COM 718-967-1234 Record last updated on 30-Apr-96. Record created on 20-Apr-95. Domain servers in listed order: ESCAPE.COM 198.6.71.10 FREE.ESCAPE.COM 198.6.71.13 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information whois escape.com Kazan Corporation (ESCAPE-DOM) ESCAPE.COM Kazan Corporation (ESCAPE-HST) ESCAPE.COM 198.6.71.10 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 09:56:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA10902 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA10881 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from paulh@localhost) by www.hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA14855; Wed, 1 May 1996 12:48:34 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:48:31 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas To: Project Genesis cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Paydirt In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960501161454.007460b8@j51.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 1 May 1996, Project Genesis wrote: > Let's be honest. We don't want to attempt legal action - either variety - > when we can solve the problem ourselves. Let's warn him first, and then > pursue more convincing means if necessary. Anyone want to write the warning? Don't speak for me. I do want to help pursue legal action. I'll happily donate $20 to the "AOL legal offense fund", if they choose to set one up. If they want friend of the court briefs, I'll help write one. If we go and physically beat him up, we can't tell anyone or we go to jail. So the next spammer won't learn. If we use legal action, we can tell the world. The magazine spammer is indirectly working for large companies to sell their magazine subscriptions. Large corporations respond to legal action. Once we have a successfull test case, we can say to Hearst corporation, "someone is using illegal means to sell your products, please help us shut him down". -- Paul Haas, paulh@hamjudo.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 10:59:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA17255 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 10:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA17249 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 10:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.5/8.7.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id NAA26797; Wed, 1 May 1996 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Paydirt Date: 1 May 1996 13:49:46 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 18 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4m887q$q5a@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas writes: >Don't speak for me. I do want to help pursue legal action. I'll happily >donate $20 to the "AOL legal offense fund", if they choose to set one up. >If they want friend of the court briefs, I'll help write one. . . . >The magazine spammer is indirectly working for large companies to sell >their magazine subscriptions. Large corporations respond to legal >action. Once we have a successfull test case, we can say to Hearst >corporation, "someone is using illegal means to sell your products, >please help us shut him down". And those companies do listen, even if legal action is not threatened. How about we make a form letter, spam our own lists with it, and ask the members to print it and snail-mail it back to the companies? -- "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." RFC-1925 From list-managers-owner Wed May 1 18:26:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA20574 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 May 1996 18:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e55.webcom.com (e55.webcom.com [206.2.192.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA20568 for ; Wed, 1 May 1996 18:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605020116.SAA20568@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by e55.webcom.com (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA255889717; Wed, 1 May 1996 18:15:17 -0700 From: Thomas Leavitt Subject: FYI - Krazy Kevin's effect. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 18:15:17 PDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > We will be changing certain policies relating to > e-mail, and in particular, e-mail mailing lists this > Friday, May 3, 1996. These changes should have > minimal impact on list members but you should be > aware of their occurence as they may impact your > ability to post from different machines. > > Effective immediately, e-mail with a size greater > than 1000KB will be held for approval before being > delivered or forwarded. > > Effective immediately, e-mail to multiple recipients > greater than 4Kb will be held for approval before > being delivered or forwarded. > > Effective 960503-20:00EDT only list subscribers may > post to a list. This means that if you change e-mail > addresses during the day (you subcribed from home but > you occasionally post from work) then any message > sent from the non-subscribed address will be bounced. > > You are hopefully unaware of the activities of one > Mr. Kevin Lipstiz of Staten Island, NY. This person > is responsible for the Krazy Kevin magazine > subscription spam. If you don't know what spam is, > count your blessings. To minimize the chances that > this material will be inflicted upon our list > subscribers we are making these administrative > changes. > > Note that anyone can still subscribe to any list, > unless the list moderators have choosen to require > their approval before permitting subscriptions. Also > note that list subscribers should be able to post in > their usual way without anyother restriction. > > If you have any questions or comments arrising out of > this matter please contact me directly. > > Regards, > -- > James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca > Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca > Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 > > > -- Web Communications (sm) Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101 Vice President Web Communications Home Page From list-managers-owner Thu May 2 02:41:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA14236 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 02:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA14220 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 02:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id TAA03671 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:38:00 +1000 (EST) Received: from slsyd8p28.ozemail.com.au (slsyd8p28.ozemail.com.au [203.22.157.116]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA10041 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 19:37:58 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960502112720.411ffb2a@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 19:39:36 -1000 To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: Tony Helman Subject: Learning to administer a majordomo mailing list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just become a list-administrator for a majordomo mailing list. Is there any material available on the Internet which can help explain how to do my job? I got the standard file with the set of commands and syntax, but this is hardly user-friendly. Kind regards, Dr.Tony Helman From list-managers-owner Thu May 2 07:01:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA24297 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 06:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from park.interport.net (park.interport.net [199.184.165.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA24289 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 06:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from interport.net (wfrench@madison.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.1]) by park.interport.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01577 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 09:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from wfrench@localhost) by interport.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA17108 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 May 1996 09:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:46:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Will French Message-Id: <199605021346.JAA17108@interport.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: TULP 4.0.1 Mailing List Manager Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Seen on comp.os.linux.announce: > From: Steven Kirby > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.announce > Subject: TULP 4.0.1 Mailing List Manager > Date: Tue, 01 May 1996 11:37:32 GMT > Lines: 52 > Message-ID: > X-Original-Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 19:57:16 -0400 (EDT) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've uploaded a binary copy and source code for TULP 4.1.0 to tsx-11.mit.edu. TULP is a clone of the popular BITNET listserv program that runs on *NIX systems, including Linux. We've been using TULP in our shop for about a month now to manage several high-traffic lists, and we've been very pleased with both its performance and ease of configuration. TULP runs as a daemon, so it does consume some system resources (about the same as an idle bash login), even when it's not processing mail. On the other hand, TULP doesn't have to be started and restarted for each incoming mail message (as does, for example, the deservedly popular Majordomo mailing list manager). By running as a daemon, TULP offers the prospect of significant performance gains for sites that manage large and/or active mailing lists. Christophe Wolfhugel (Christophe.Wolfhugel@univ-lyon1.fr) is the principal author of TULP, with assistance from Kimmo Suominen (Kimmo.Suominen@lut.fi). The program is distributed under terms of the GNU Public License, and should be considered "mature" (i.e., at last report, no new development efforts are planned). I'll be glad to answer as many Linux-specific questions about TULP as I can, but those probably will be relatively few and far between. My upload of TULP 4.1.0 is available at ftp://tsx-11.mit.edu/pub/linux/sources/sbin/tulp-4.1.0.tar.gz Enjoy! - --steve Steven Kirby COSMIC, NASA's Software Technology Transfer Center (http://www.cosmic.uga.edu) kirby@cosmic.uga.edu -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i iQCVAwUBMYdMxYQRll5MupLRAQG/IQP8C7TTxATm0XUDxStLm3+GfobISAYIjT/u PIsvJEV0DTLZB4pt24SPl7qlcJvCvhuuvTBPoHzc5xveZ32e8x7eL2UOGZDlfSmC P/gRZLP8TXI0p5rTLCvh6uoh94JmzYeddCJXQlvQm3qu4tLRwOf77NUeBrq0cCyz Tgmx0WTa1AU= =bz6N -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- This article has been digitally signed by the moderator, using PGP. Finger wirzeniu@kruuna.helsinki.fi for PGP key needed for validating signature. Send submissions for comp.os.linux.announce to: linux-announce@news.ornl.gov PLEASE remember a short description of the software and the LOCATION. From list-managers-owner Thu May 2 20:26:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA19116 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacs01.infoave.net (pacs01.InfoAve.Net [165.166.0.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA19103 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from augusta.net.sunbelt.net (dial-8.r1.gaagst.InfoAve.Net) by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.0-5 #4800) id <01I48X19IAWG8X0ILD@InfoAve.Net> for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 02 May 1996 23:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:00:46 -0400 From: AJSOU812 Subject: list To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Message-id: <317D995E.225F@augusta.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list From list-managers-owner Thu May 2 20:29:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA19178 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp4.netcom.com [163.179.3.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA19172 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Wattles.UUCP by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id UAA06597; Thu, 2 May 1996 20:02:54 -0700 Received: by Wattles Information Network id 1AA4 2 May 96 19:58:18 PDT From: jim.rems@wattles.com Message-ID: <0000000400001AA4@wattles.com> Organization: Wattles Information Network X-Mailer: TSX-BBS Date: 2 May 96 19:58:18 PDT Subject: Pricing Private Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm looking to compare costs for mailing list services from third party vendors. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. -- Jim Jacob F. 'Jim' Rems * Publisher * Wattles Publications Publishers of Books for Civil Engineers and Land Surveyors -------------------------------------------------------------- Voice: (714)832-5711 * Fax: (714)832-4169 * BBS: (714)832-7916 jfrems@wattles.com -+- info@wattles.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 3 08:56:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA27497 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 08:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA27481 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hal-ham-g01-u01 (i486nt01.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.103]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA23877 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 11:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <318A2B60.4DEF@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:50:56 -0400 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List - Mailing List Managers Subject: Re: 22nd Century Marketing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI The following is the written reply that I received from iStar, the network service provider for the ISP that hosted 22nd Century. They also happen to be my network provider as well. The staff at iStar were extremely co-operative in this manner and contacted me daily regarding the progress of their inquiries. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 Subject: Re: 22nd Century Marketing Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:00:19 -0500 From: Douglas Denny To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca ------- Forwarded Message Replied: Fri, 03 May 1996 09:17:59 -0500 Replied: Matthew McNaughton Replied: mike.digdon@istar.ca Received: from spade.wimsey.com ([204.191.160.1]) by nds.netsvc.istar.ca with ESMTP id <5918-29995>; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:10:50 -0500 Received: by spade.wimsey.com (Smail-3.1.92 #14) id m0uF6Yr-000BVIC; Thu, 2 May 96 15:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from istar.ca [204.191.136.4] by spade.wimsey.com with esmtp (Smail-3.1.92 #14) id m0uF6Yq-000BVBC; Thu, 2 May 96 15:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nisku.blackgold.ab.ca (nisku.blackgold.ab.ca [198.53.152.12]) by istar.ca (8.7.3/8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26592 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 18:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp15.blackgold.ab.ca (ppp15.blackgold.ab.ca [198.53.152.126]) by nisku.blackgold.ab.ca (8.7.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA29812 for ; Thu, 2 May 1996 16:13:33 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:13:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199605022213.QAA29812@nisku.blackgold.ab.ca> X-Sender: mmcnaugh@tnc.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Doug.Denny@istar.ca From: Matthew McNaughton Subject: Re: 22nd Century Marketing X-Filter: mailagent [version 3.0 PL31] for denny@nds.netsvc.istar.ca Hello, I am post/hostmaster at this site. This 22nd Century Marketing fellow was a customer of ours until he started posting inappropriate advertisements to Usenet. I don't know whether he did the same to any mailing lists, but in any case he incurred the wrath of someone who subscribed his id to dozens of mailing lists, which clogged our system. His account has been shut down and we don't intend to do business with him anymore. We understand we are not the first ISP he has done this to, and I fear we may not be the last. In any case, no more crimes should be forthcoming from this fellow. (at least not under the auspices of a connection from us) Thanks for your concern, and we apologize for any inconvenience this man may have caused you and those who complained about him. If you have any further questions, I would be (more or less) pleased to answer them. Matthew McNaughton Chief Technical Potentate The Network Centre At 01:59 PM 5/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hello > > I am Douglas Denny of iSTAR internet network support. We have >recieved a couple of complaints regarding 22nd Century Marketing. >These complaints regard subscribing to certain mailing lists and >newsgroups and spamming them. Please let me know if you can shed > some light on this. > >-Doug > >-- >Douglas Denny >Network Support Specialist > >iSTAR internet inc. > >direct-assist@iSTAR.ca +1 800 iSTAR Support > >mailto:Douglas.Denny@iSTAR.ca +1 613 780-2215 >http://www.istar.ca > > >Irony: The deaf mute who figures out the meaning of life >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- TNC The Network Centre Ltd. Internetworking Consultants & Service Providers +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ http://www.tnc.com Matthew McNaughton #212 - 10509 81 Avenue Elite Technical Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6E 1X7 Strike Force Commando Voice: (403)448-1290 mmcnaugh@tnc.com Fax: (403)944-0233 - ----------------------------------------------------------------- "Do not ask for whom the pager beeps, it beeps for thee." ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Fri May 3 11:27:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA12225 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 3 May 1996 11:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.20.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA12205 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 11:24:23 -0700 (PDT) From: js_dukelow@ccmail.pnl.gov Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V4.3-13 #6012) id <01I49MSGV2WW8WVYND@pnl.gov>; Fri, 03 May 1996 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [<-Dummies Wanted->] To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01I49MSKC2CU8WVYND@pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:14 -0700 (PDT) From: js_dukelow@ccmail.pnl.gov Subject: [<-Dummies Wanted->] To: GetTheDumb@aol.com Cc: djackson@aol.net, PDMAtropos@aol.com MIME-version: 1.0 MIME-version: 1.0 Here is an approach to spammers that might be worth trying. I also copied the message to the ISP, which in this case was AOL. Best regards. Jim Dukelow Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Richland, WA js_dukelow@pnl.gov ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: [<-Dummies Wanted->] Author: James S Jr Dukelow at ~PNL5 Date: 5/3/96 11:14 AM I am not interested in receiving from you spam like the forwarded message. I work for a national laboratory. Our computer systems are owned by the federal government and are, by federal law, to be used only in the conduct of laboratory business. By sending me this mail unrelated to laboratory business, you are violating this law. Indeed, if you sent the mail to other addressees in the .gov domain, you violated the law multiple times. I suspect similar laws govern the use of computer systems at a number of educational institutions. Thus, you are not only flouting Internet etiquette, you are breaking the law. If I receive additional mail of this nature from you, I will contact our legal department. Jim Dukelow Pacific Northwest National Laboratory Richland, WA ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: [<-Dummies Wanted->] Author: GetTheDumb@aol.com at -SMTPlink Date: 5/2/96 10:53 PM Dummy? Doesn't seem like a very wise choice for a name, when you are trying to jump right into the investment world. For years, self-proclaimed financial experts have tried their best to sell customers on their Wisdom. It may be the avuncular smile, pinstripe suit, the advertising jingle, or the firm handshake; your money manager, financial planner, or broker has striven for the image that smacks intelligence, success, respectability, experience-in one word, Wisdom. And for years, those "experts" have been making money off of Dummies. You know about Dummies. At one point, you may have been a Dummy yourself. Have you ever listened to a salesman on the phone and after a while, actually thought that the voice-activated vacuum cleaner he was trying to sell you actually made sense? You were being a Dummy. Or what about that time, when you bought shares of World Dashed Hopes Fund just because your broker told you that it was the top performer in its category over the past five years? Terribly, terribly Dumb. Basking on the excesses brought about by this Dumb "stuff", the financial establishments hadn't banked on one thing....the day when the tables might turn when some of us Dummies (yes....a capital D) actually showed up. Well, the staff members of The Daily Dummy believe that we are the Dummies that have showed up. The Daily Dumy is the greatest thing since sliced cyberspace. When was the last time that you saw a newsletter that came to you everyday at lunch, and in the evening? The Daily Dummy is the rightful heir to Investor's Business Daily, AND the future must-read of every successful investor. After all it is written by all of us. That's right, a financial newsletter that doesn't TELL you what to do with your money, but instead offers the collective wisdom and wit of our readers....the biggest investment club in the universe (We at Dumb Head Quarters might say "on the planet," but why think so small?) You say you'd like to SEE the thing first? No prob. To get a free week's subscription, e-mail "DailyDummy@aol.com" asking for a free trial. Then you can read it, print it out, and race right back here to sign up. OK, OK, we're kidding--pass it around to all your friends first, get them to sign up, THEN race right back here to sign up. Hey, because we at Dummy HQ like you so much, we'll also send you two weeks of Investor's Business Daily absolutely FREE when you subscribe. We'll also send you our thirteen steps to becoming a Dummy, and the Dumb Investment Guide. Subscription rates for electronic delivery are as follows: Year billing: $31.20 ($0.12 an issue) Bi-Year Billing: $52.00 ($0.10 an issue) Allow about two days for processing. (You can't tell, since all of this was just in print, but it was actually spoken in a voice that sounded suspiciously like James Earl Jones's.) Keep it Dumb! :D From list-managers-owner Sat May 4 13:26:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA01847 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 4 May 1996 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA01841 for ; Sat, 4 May 1996 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA00148 for ; Sat, 4 May 1996 15:23:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199605042023.PAA00148@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: more spammers from aol. (Jeanchev@aol.com) Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 15:23:25 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI warning. For some reason the midwest-dod list apepars to be on the top of their list list. We get these every time a spammer starts up. Even those that Brad shuts down early. ;-( It's not going to the list are the resend process nabbed it. Still.. --Gene ------- Forwarded Message >From midwest-dod-human Sat May 4 14:51:16 1996 Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA29883 for ; Sat, 4 May 1996 14:51:15 -0500 From: Jeanchev@aol.com Received: by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA23761; Sat, 4 May 1996 15:36:55 -0400 Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 15:36:55 -0400 Message-ID: <960504153652_287142900@emout07.mail.aol.com> Subject: CRaZy Complimentary Offer........ Apparently-To: - --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: CRaZy Complimentary Offer........ Date: 96-05-04 14:44:00 EDT From: Jeanchev To: free_offer_news.reflector@usenet.vax1.zer2.co.np ........spamm trash......... Sincerely, Jean Chevalier ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Sat May 4 13:41:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA02082 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 4 May 1996 13:38:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail3.netcom.com [163.179.3.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA02076 for ; Sat, 4 May 1996 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id NAA02262; Sat, 4 May 1996 13:36:06 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA18518; Sat, 4 May 96 12:46:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 May 96 12:46:44 -0700 Message-Id: <9605041946.AA18518@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Here we go again..... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just as I said, AOL's attemts to stop the spamming don't even seem to have slowed it down. This just in -- and yes I sent it to abuse@aol.com. Good luck, David. I hope your management is listening. >From Jeanchev@aol.com Sat May 4 11:49:24 1996 >Received: from emout15.mx.aol.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) > id AA17964; Sat, 4 May 96 11:49:24 -0700 >Received: by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA24196; Sat, 4 May 1996 1 >5:37:15 -0400 >Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 15:37:15 -0400 >From: Jeanchev@aol.com >Message-Id: <960504153714_287143044@emout15.mail.aol.com> >Subject: CRaZy Complimentary Offer........ >Apparently-To: > > >--------------------- >Forwarded message: >Subj: CRaZy Complimentary Offer........ >Date: 96-05-04 14:44:00 EDT >From: Jeanchev > >To: free_offer_news.reflector@usenet.vax1.zer2.co.np > -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Sat May 4 17:56:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27122 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 4 May 1996 17:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA27098 for ; Sat, 4 May 1996 17:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) with SMTP id RAA11352; Sat, 4 May 1996 17:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <318BF98C.537E@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 04 May 1996 17:42:52 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Spam List Subject: [Fwd: Subscription forgery by 104460.1737@compuserve.com?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1DBC289016E8" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1DBC289016E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoops -- meant to forward this yesterday; be on the lookout for this address (104460.1737@compuserve.com). No response yet from CIS. Michael --------------1DBC289016E8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id PAA04461 for ; Fri, 3 May 1996 15:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id PAA07022; Fri, 3 May 1996 15:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605032209.PAA07022@miles.greatcircle.com> From: mcb@GreatCircle.COM (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 15:09:56 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: postmaster@compuserve.com, abuse@compuserve.com Subject: Subscription forgery by 104460.1737@compuserve.com? Cc: postmaster@alli.wnyric.org, postmaster@bigvax.alfred.edu On April 30, your user 104460.1737@compuserve.com (or possibly someone forging that return address) sent 162 subscribe requests to our Majordomo (mailing list manager) server, attempting to subscribe a number of addresses in the domain alli.wnyric.org to all the mailing lists hosted here. Later, the same user sent 18 requests attempting to subscribe the address Fiskpe@bigvax.alfred.edu to all the lists here. Please advise your user to cease this attempt to interfere with the operation of our mailing lists, which serve a large number of Internet users. If he/she claims that these requests are legitimate, please provide confirmation from the individual requestors as we will not honor a mass subscription request. (FYI -- alli.wnyric.org & bigvax.alfred.edu postmasters.) Regards, -- Michael C. Berch Postmaster and List Manager, Great Circle Associates mcb@greatcircle.com --------------1DBC289016E8-- From list-managers-owner Sun May 5 02:26:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA02438 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 May 1996 02:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA02425 for ; Sun, 5 May 1996 02:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id FAA06947; Sun, 5 May 1996 05:12:52 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605042023.PAA00148@antares.mcs.anl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 03:02:21 -0400 To: Gene Rackow , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: more spammers from aol. (Jeanchev@aol.com) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:23 PM -0500 5/4/96, Gene Rackow wrote: > FYI warning. For some reason the midwest-dod list apepars to > be on the top of their list list. We get these every time > a spammer starts up. Even those that Brad shuts down early. ;-( > It's not going to the list are the resend process nabbed it. > Still.. Actually, David O'Donnell is our Postmaster, and his group is the one that deletes AOL users as soon as they are discovered to be abusing the 'net. The Mail Operations group (the one I'm in) handles the daily care and feeding of our Internet Mail Gateways, as well as being in the process taking over those same functions for a couple of other related domains. And David has been subscribed to this list longer than I have (I've even unsubscribed from work since I can't keep up there, and resubscribed at home, where I've actually got better tools to deal with the fact that I can't possibly keep up here, either). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun May 5 10:41:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA16355 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 May 1996 10:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net [206.27.192.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA16339 for ; Sun, 5 May 1996 10:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ind-006-236-242.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0uG7a7-004917C; Sun, 5 May 96 12:26 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers (to what?) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 12:31:46 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Re: GET ME OFF THIS LIST! Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know if this guy made this up himself, but *I* found it to be humorous and thought a few of you might enjoy it... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- At 06:26 PM 4/13/96 GMT, techytom@pobox.com wrote: >To all who are not in charge of these lists ... DELETE THIS. > >To the people in charge of subscriptions, > >I've tried with no success for 2 weeks, now to get OFF your mailing >lists. AND NO ONE ANSWERED ME! > >I'm really tired, but the administrators of these lists are ignoring >all my messages. So, one last time, I say PLEASE. But to hopefully >to get some admin attention > >GET ME OFF THIS LIST!! GET ME OFF THIS LIST!! GET ME OFF THIS >LIST!! GET ME OFF THIS LIST!! GET ME OFF THIS LIST!! GET ME OFF >THIS LIST!! Dear [ ] sir [X] clueless one [ ] twit [ ] great man on campus [ ] madam [ ] dweeb [ ] twerp [ ] comrade [ ] Elvis [ ] moon beam [ ] boor [ ] Obergruppenfuehrer [ ] citoyen [ ] Geek [ ] grad student [ ] cur [ ]Republican [ ] Democrat [ ] Liberal [ ] Conservative [ ]Communist [ ] Dilbert [ ] Dogbert [ ] Ratbert You are being gently flamed because: [X] you sent a please remove me from the list message to the list rather than the list-sever [ ] you continued a boring useless stupid thread [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to [ ] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads [ ] you posted a piece riddled with profanities [ ] you advocated Net censorship [X] you SCREAMED! (used all caps) [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article [ ] you posted the inanely stupid '$250 Cookie Recipe' article [ ] you posted an inanely stupid magic-weight loss article [ ] you posted an inanely stupid cheap s**t at high prices article [ ] you posted an inanely stupid'Fix Your Credit' article [ ] you posted an inanely stupid "Good Time Virus" warning. [ ] you threatened others with physical harm [ ] you made a bigoted statement(s) [ ] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve [ ] you repeatedly have shown lack of humor [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every thread [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack [ ] you responded to an obvious troll [ ] you posted an obvious troll [ ] you have a sig that is more than 5 lines long [ ] you have a sig with more than 4 lines of ASCII graphics [ ] you assumed that AOL/CIS/Prodigy founded the Internet [ ] you neglected to do research on the chosen subject [ ] you asked a question that was covered in the available FAQ [ ] you redundantly covered the same point over and over [ ] you assumed that the Internet is a U.S. only phenomenon [ ] you crossposted excessively [ ] you, in any way, make, shape, or form, agreed with Senator Exon [ ] you posted the Good Times virus spread by e-mail message [ ] you used long lines, i.e. you didn't break up your lines after 60-70 characters, thereby making it hard to quote your post. [ ] You posted a request to send business/get well cards to a little boy with cancer who is trying to break the guiness book record. [ ] Over 90% of your post was quoted from a previous post. [ ] Over 90% of your post was quoted from a previous post and your addition was "I agree" or "Me too." [ ] Barged into a quiet little news group/IRC channel/MUD/whatever and started stinking up the place just because you read an article about the news group/IRC channel/MUD/whatever in some magazine. [ ] Repeatedly requested info on where to find XXX stuff. [ ] Repeatedly harassed people with androgynous names like Chris, Jamie, or Rajhatmalhaban, with "Are you a girl?" or "M/F?" questions. [ ] you, in any way, make shape, or form, used the term(s) [ ] "infobahn" [ ] "Neutopia" [ ] "synergy" [ ] "warez" [ ] "SUX" [ ] "wymyn" [ ] "ROOLZ" [ ] KEWL/KOOL/K0oL [ ] "information superhighway" [ ] Other annoying term: [ ] you discussed the following in a non-nutcase newsgroup; [ ] hollow earth theory [ ] alien President theory [ ] orbital mind control frisbees [ ] faith healing [ ] government weather control [ ] Russian psychics [ ] Squeaky Fromme [ ] the nation of France [ ] robot spy bees [ ] sexually promiscuous space aliens [ ] "Manos, the Hands of Fate" [ ] Other: [ ] you considered the following to be reliable reference sources; [ ] Golden Books' "Exploring Science", printed 1955 [ ] Any program covered by Talk Soup [ ] SNL News [ ] Oliver Stone [ ] Hard Copy [ ] Inside Edition [ ] The National Enquirer [ ] The Sun [ ] NY Post [ ] The Union Leader [ ] Pravda [ ] OMNI Magazine [ ] Company Marketing Hype [ ] Microsoft [ ] The Simpsons [ ] An unidentified, but obviously stupid, person or publication [ ] Other: In the future, you may wish to; [X] do not delete the "welcome to the list" message you recieved when you joined [ ] allow boring and useless threads to die [ ] remember that not all newsreaders are threaded [ ] recall that there are academic and commercial users on the net [ ] remember that the Internet is multinational [ ] consider that others may know more about certain subjects than you [X] exercise some humility [ ] be careful of where you are crossposting to [ ] 'lurk' without posting for a few days to learn the forum of a group [ ] take personal discussions or stupid/boring threads to email [X] get used to being mocked [ ] stop volunteering for Armed Forces pharmeceutical experiments [X] join your people on your planet of origin [ ] remove the pipe from your nether regions [ ] buy a nice firey lakefront plot in the Hell you so richly deserve I would like like to suggest that, for the common good, you; [ ] wait at least two hours before responding to another post [ ] read the FAQ (frequently asked questions) list for the group [ ] learn to use the 'kill' command to eliminate erroneous posts [ ] post only to alt.dev.null [ ] selectively respond to threads after reading all new messages in that thread [X] voluntarily apologize in a brief post [X] shop for clues at a better clue shop [ ] no longer contribute to this newsgroup [ ] no longer contribute to any newsgroup [ ] no longer contribute to the gene pool [X] look into the possibility of medication for the above problems [ ] familiarize yourself with the history of the Internet [X] familiarize yourself with the concept of: [X] patience [X] tolerance [ ] caution [X] common courtesy [ ] succinctness [ ] vocabulary [ ] higher brain functions [ ] Other: Please save this message and review it occasionally to determine your progress toward being; [ ] a useful member of Internet society [X] a less annoying member of Internet society [ ] a human being [ ] a fully-functional human being [ ] a tolerable poster [ ] integrated into humanity [ ] re-integrated into the wild [ ] Other: Thank you for taking the time to read this form flame. John A. Gunterman Quality is Job 1.01 O- Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 14:12:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA27724 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail4.netcom.com [163.179.3.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA27718 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id NAA21620; Wed, 8 May 1996 13:59:21 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA16045; Wed, 8 May 96 13:09:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 May 96 13:09:37 -0700 Message-Id: <9605082009.AA16045@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: It's a clear day today. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, I've gone for a whole 72 hours without a SPAM from KK. Did AOL manage to squelch him or is this somehow the calm before the storm? -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 14:34:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA29639 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA29563 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) id OAA21549; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:22:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199605082122.OAA21549@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:26:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: It's a clear day today. Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman wrote: > Well, I've gone for a whole 72 hours without a SPAM from KK. Did > AOL manage to squelch him or is this somehow the calm before the > storm? He's up to something. I can feel it in my bones... -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 205,442nd person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 14:39:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA29021 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA28992 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04560 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 16:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605082115.QAA04560@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Is it a spam, or isn't it? X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 16:15:38 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I received this today. I don't quite know what to make of it. Has anyone else received it? ----- From: nEthos Support Subject: To: type-o@hpc.uh.edu Date: Tue, 07 May 1996 14:41:26 +0000 Hello We are three girls from Switzerland. We look for three nice boys. We are all 16. Bye, your girls ----- No 1-900 number, no Dave Rhodes (make young Swiss chicks fast?) no "Good Times", no "Interesting Free Offer". I'm at a loss. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 15:42:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA07013 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA07005 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id PAA25098; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:22:32 -0700 Received: from uumail2.netcom.com(163.179.3.52) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma025096; Wed May 8 15:21:42 1996 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id PAA25452; Wed, 8 May 1996 15:26:02 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA16926; Wed, 8 May 96 14:33:40 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 May 96 14:33:40 -0700 Message-Id: <9605082133.AA16926@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Is it a spam, or isn't it? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >No 1-900 number, no Dave Rhodes (make young Swiss chicks fast?) no "Good >Times", no "Interesting Free Offer". I'm at a loss. Just someone who wants to generate a lot of nuisance mail for whomever runs nethos.net. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 19:00:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA18698 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 18:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA18691 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 18:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id VAA07750; Wed, 8 May 1996 21:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31914ADF.6077@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 21:31:11 -0400 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Deikman CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: It's a clear day today. References: <9605082009.AA16045@znyx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's not Friday yet. Alan Deikman wrote: > > Well, I've gone for a whole 72 hours without a SPAM from > KK. Did AOL manage to squelch him or is this somehow the > calm before the storm? > -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 21:42:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA26247 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 21:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA26233 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 21:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA28921 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 21:31:07 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13248; Wed, 8 May 96 21:31:06 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9605090431.AA13248@siesta> Subject: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:31:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, here we go again. >From Approved99@aol.com Thu May 9 00:17:13 1996 Return-Path: Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com) by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4. 1-hack1) id AA19693; Thu, 9 May 96 00:17:13 EDT Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA05434; Thu, 9 May 1996 0 0:17:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:17:31 -0400 From: Approved99@aol.com Message-Id: <960509001731_394313100@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! Apparently-To: -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 605 5679 From list-managers-owner Wed May 8 22:41:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA28090 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 May 1996 22:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA28084 for ; Wed, 8 May 1996 22:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.133.220.158] (cmh-ppp58.netset.com [205.133.220.158]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet) with SMTP id BAA13364 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 01:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 01:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi All! Boy am I glad to have found you (even if it means yet *more* mail in my box!). A short intro, then I'll cut to the chase about a huge problem I've been having. I hope some of you will be willing to offer me guidance... I'm one of 4 managers of a private, moderated-subscriptions, unmoderated-postings, 950+ member, 100+ messages/day mailing list. (Whew! How's that for a run-on sentence!) My problem is confidentiality. Since we are a private list, we do not allow the crossposting of list mail to other forums. Of course we do not guarantee that this won't happen (as we can't really control what individuals do with their list mail), but we try to inforce it whenever possible, and do remove those whom we "catch" forwarding on mail. The problem? A disgruntled, psychotic, obscene, and all-around-nasty chick who delights in posting list mail to Usenet Newsgroups. I'm sure most of you are saying "so kick her off the list." That's the rub. She isn't *on* the list! Since she knows she would never be allowed to join, she has recruited other psychotic jerks to subscribe on her behalf, and forward list mail to her (which she then forwards to Usenet groups). Is there anything I can do? I have *no* idea who is forwarding mail to her. I contacted her SysAdmin (at Pitt) who basically said "too bad, live with it." She's been a source of major trouble on the Usenet for years (slander, obscenity, defamation of character, lying, etc) but Pitt refuses to do anything about her (citing "free speech"). I asked Pitt to check her mail logs to see who is sending her the list mail - Pitt refused (as I would if I were in their postion). Do any of you have any suggestions? Am I just going to have to live with this? HELP! Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Moderator, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ As soon as humankind began to discover the truth about itself, we began to find ways to cover up that truth. But maybe that's for the best: Our ability to delude ourselves may be an important survival tool. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 00:34:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA03095 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 00:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA03088 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 00:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA13957; Thu, 9 May 1996 02:03:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605090703.CAA13957@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: cubabe@netset.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 9 May 1996 01:27:17 -0400 (EDT)" References: X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:03:03 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DKK" == Dana Katherine Kressierer writes: DKK> The problem? A disgruntled, psychotic, obscene, and all-around-nasty DKK> chick who delights in posting list mail to Usenet Newsgroups. [...] DKK> Is there anything I can do? I have *no* idea who is forwarding mail DKK> to her. Unless the person is dumb enough to include full header information on the material they're resending, you pretty much can't tell. I can think of difficult and expensive (time-wise) schemes where you send out slightly different messages to each list member to see which one ends up being posted. You could also cook up a scheme where each list member signs over copyright of their message to you, then you include a copyright notice with each message. Then you can attempt to have the annoying person's admin shut them down for copyright violation. This is stretching things pretty thin, though (and, of course, IANAL). -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 02:57:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13234 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 02:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA13228 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 02:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10065 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 10:34:35 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:35:21 GMT Message-ID: References: <9605090431.AA13248@siesta> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <9605090431.AA13248@siesta>, Jeff Wasilko wrote: >Well, here we go again. Yup; although these don't get past my filter, I'm bored with this. When I've done my real work for today, I'm going to write a script that automatically mails to the appropriate address when it gets one of these. That's abuse@aol.com, isn't it? What about netcom, and compuserve? In fact, perhaps it would be useful for us to get together a definitive list of addresses that these should be reported to, since postmaster doesn't always seem to work terribly well these days. A point that some might find interesting with these latest spams is that I run two lists on the same host. The magazine spams have only ever been addressed to one of them. Whether or not this can tell us anything about the source of the addresses I don't know ... -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 04:56:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA18254 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 04:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA18229 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 04:52:40 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA20260; Thu, 9 May 1996 07:50:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:50:42 -0400 Message-ID: <960509075041_487424375@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: IFRITRay@aol.com Subject: Latest Kevin Lipsitz: Approved99@aol.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've terminated that account. AOL Legal and security are proceeding on their own investigations. Please do not send in notices of this spam, we are well aware of it and have terminated the account. --David O'Donnell (in Germany on business) From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 05:11:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA18961 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA18906 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 9 May 1996 12:58:23 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Thu, 09 May 1996 12:56:18 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0uHUKB-0007V6C; Thu, 9 May 96 12:56 WET DST X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 12:56:02 +0100 Message-ID: <17002.831642962@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) writes: [deletia] > My problem is confidentiality. Since we are a private > list, we do not allow the crossposting of list mail > to other forums. [deletia] One of the lists I run has the following footnote tagged onto the end of every message. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- All messages sent to this mailing list are subject to the authors copyright, unless explicitly waived above. Please obtain the authors permission before quoting them outside of this mailing list. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thus if someone does quote them outside of the list without their permission I believe I have grounds to complain due to breach of copyright. DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer and I live in the UK. best of luck! Chris -- Christopher Samuel, Open Software Systems Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 05:27:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA20056 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.phoenix.net (mail.phoenix.net [199.3.232.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA20041 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiralnet.com (spiralnet.com [199.3.234.29]) by mail.phoenix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA23402 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 07:17:14 GMT Message-Id: <199605090717.HAA23402@mail.phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 07:16:12 -0600 Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Reply-to: klong@spiralnet.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 May 96 at 1:27, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > [...] > Do any of you have any suggestions? Am I just > going to have to live with this? Ugh. I know of whom you speak. I popped in to said newsgroup for the first time about a week ago and was shocked at her contributions. One thought did occur to me, why not have those whose email is being posted complain directly to her postmaster? Maybe it would carry more weight comming from the "injured" party? Namaste' Kimberly Long klong@spiralnet.com )O( klong@phoenix.net )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( Hope is the last gift given to man, and the only gift not given to youth. The power of hoping through everything, the knowledge that the soul survives its adventures, that great inspiration comes to the middle-aged. ~~ G.K. Chesterton )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 05:32:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA20077 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id FAA20068 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 05:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) by Mercer.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13285) id <01I4HIFJ52FK8ZJVAR@Mercer.EDU> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 09 May 1996 02:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) id <01I4HIFEBJ7K8WWMD9@MACON2.MERCER.EDU> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 09 May 1996 02:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 02:43:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: New manager's woes To: List Managers List Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Early this year I got into the list-management business and am now managing one completely silent list and another which has just completed the process of defining itself. Because these are private lists, I haven't experienced the kinds of problems (e.g., spamming and Usenet forwarding) which I've been reading about during the two or three weeks I've been lurking on this list as a new subscriber. Mind you, I'm not yearning for those problems and don't envy those of you who have them :). However, I hope that in your collective experience you can help me with two problems I **am** having. First, one of my lists has, as I say, fallen completely silent. Since it's about technology and teaching, there is plenty to say, but no one seems to want to say it. Have any of you faced a situation like this--great enthusiasm and a rapid wave of subscribers when the list was announced followed by sudden death? What do you do? "Entertain" them yourselves (for, indeed, that's what I began to feel as though I was doing) with weekly posts? I've tried everything from surveys and "editorials" to raising what I thought were provocative issues. All to little or no avail. Now I myself no longer post, and it's as though the list does not exist. Insights? My other list is a 30-member manual operation--that is, the mailing list exists on 30 different computers operating a variety of email and communications software. This list is a core group which volunteered to set the parameters for a public list. We're now ready to go public. We intend to keep the subscription level at about 100, and, if the present 30 are any indication, it will be a low-traffic list. My own institution's server can accommodate the list I described above, but not this second one. My question, then, is how does one go about finding a server for a homeless list? Sandra in Maconga From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 06:27:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA24681 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA24646 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.5/8.7.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id JAA07250; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:17:34 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Date: 9 May 1996 09:17:33 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 18 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4msr9d$72f@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <9605090431.AA13248@siesta> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nigel Whitfield wrote: >I'm going to write a script that automatically mails to the appropriate >address when it gets one of these. That's abuse@aol.com, isn't it? What >about netcom, and compuserve? I've had very quick and effective response from abuse@ix.netcom.com. >In fact, perhaps it would be useful for us to get together a >definitive list of addresses that these should be reported to, A brilliant idea. For Msen (which is mostly a well-behaved bunch) it's service@mail.msen.com. -- "Bad books on writing and thoughtless English professors solemnly tell beginners to WRITE WHAT YOU KNOW, which explains why so many mediocre novels are about English professors contemplating adultery." -- Joe Haldeman From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 06:33:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA24875 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.phoenix.net (mail.phoenix.net [199.3.232.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA24867 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiralnet.com (spiralnet.com [199.3.234.29]) by mail.phoenix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA28049 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:21:57 GMT Message-Id: <199605090821.IAA28049@mail.phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:20:57 -0600 Subject: (Fwd) Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Reply-to: klong@spiralnet.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.31) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Talk about abusive. This is what I received in response to my email on the list-managers list. :-/ ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 09:13:59 -0400 From: AJSOU812 Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! To: klong@spiralnet.com Siberia wrote: > > On 9 May 96 at 1:27, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > > > [...] > > Do any of you have any suggestions? Am I just > > going to have to live with this? > > Ugh. I know of whom you speak. I popped in to said newsgroup for > the first time about a week ago and was shocked at her > contributions. One thought did occur to me, why not have those whose > email is being posted complain directly to her postmaster? Maybe it > would carry more weight comming from the "injured" party? > > Namaste' > > Kimberly Long klong@spiralnet.com )O( klong@phoenix.net Excuse me kind sir, Could you show me the way off this list? I never requested to be on it and I'm tired of the messages. Very tired. I've tried every unsubscribe method I know but I keep getting told that I never subscribed. I want off and I'm sure you would like to get me off the servers as this is only one more unwanted message right? Help me and you'll never see me again. If not then I will use your email address and forward every damn thing I get in this group to you again and again and again. I want out. OUT!!! Yours utterly, Arnold Snodgress ----------------End Forwarded Message-------------------- Namaste' Kimberly Long klong@spiralnet.com )O( klong@phoenix.net )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( Hope is the last gift given to man, and the only gift not given to youth. The power of hoping through everything, the knowledge that the soul survives its adventures, that great inspiration comes to the middle-aged. ~~ G.K. Chesterton )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 06:57:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27170 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacs01.infoave.net (pacs01.InfoAve.Net [165.166.0.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA27160 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 06:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from augusta.net.sunbelt.net (dial-5.r1.gaagst.InfoAve.Net) by InfoAve.Net (PMDF V5.0-5 #4800) id <01I4HX5NEHUO91ZIBU@InfoAve.Net> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 09 May 1996 09:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 09:41:16 -0400 From: AJSOU812 Subject: list To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <3191F5FC.12F1@augusta.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 08:42:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA05546 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA05537 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hal-ham-g01-u01 ([205.206.207.103]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA09398; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <31921323.48E8@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 11:45:39 -0400 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Wasilko CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) References: <9605090431.AA13248@siesta> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko wrote: > > Well, here we go again. > > Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:17:31 -0400 > From: Approved99@aol.com > Message-Id: <960509001731_394313100@emout18.mail.aol.com> > Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! > Apparently-To: > Damn! And it's only Thursday. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 08:49:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA04892 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA04866 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:28:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.133.220.122] (cmh-ppp22.netset.com [205.133.220.122]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet) with SMTP id LAA18085 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 11:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: RE: new list member needs help Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All: Thanks to all of you who took the time to write to me with suggestions on how to deal with the psycho-chick. I'm trying to find 5 free minutes to implement some of your suggestions in order to weed-out the offending member who is forwarding mail... (finding the time seems to be as difficult as finding the jerk who is doing this!) More to follow! Thank you all so much! Dana Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Moderator, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ As soon as humankind began to discover the truth about itself, we began to find ways to cover up that truth. But maybe that's for the best: Our ability to delude ourselves may be an important survival tool. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 09:02:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA06121 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail4.netcom.com [163.179.3.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA06097 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id IAA28674; Thu, 9 May 1996 08:43:06 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA27325; Thu, 9 May 96 07:52:12 -0700 Date: Thu, 9 May 96 07:52:12 -0700 Message-Id: <9605091452.AA27325@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kimberly wrote: >On 9 May 96 at 1:27, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > >> [...] >> Do any of you have any suggestions? Am I just >> going to have to live with this? > >Ugh. I know of whom you speak. I popped in to said newsgroup for >the first time about a week ago and was shocked at her >contributions. Just out of purient curiosity, what is the subject matter of these lists that arouses the interest of "psychotic chicks"? Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 09:42:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA11474 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net (tacoma.nwrain.net [204.71.149.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA11468 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p20.y0.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0uHYhL-000oLaC; Thu, 9 May 96 09:36 PDT Received: by p20.y0.nwrain.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BB3D8A.9DB9C7C0@p20.y0.nwrain.net>; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:33:44 -0700 Message-ID: <01BB3D8A.9DB9C7C0@p20.y0.nwrain.net> From: Robert Kapela To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: List-Managers-Digest V5 #93 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 09:11:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB3D8A.9DC2EF80" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3D8A.9DC2EF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe list-managers robert_kapela@spencer-davis.com ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3D8A.9DC2EF80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiwQAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAEAAQABBJAG AEwBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFkAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABMaXN0LU1hbmFnZXJzQEdyZWF0Q2lyY2xlLkNPTQBTTVRQAExpc3QtTWFuYWdlcnNA R3JlYXRDaXJjbGUuQ09NAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAeAAAATGlzdC1N YW5hZ2Vyc0BHcmVhdENpcmNsZS5DT00AAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAgAAAAJ0xp c3QtTWFuYWdlcnNAR3JlYXRDaXJjbGUuQ09NJwACAQswAQAAACMAAABTTVRQOkxJU1QtTUFOQUdF UlNAR1JFQVRDSVJDTEUuQ09NAAADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoBAAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA2NCAQiA BwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgBBIABACAAAABSRTogTGlzdC1NYW5hZ2Vy cy1EaWdlc3QgVjUgIzkzAM8JAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcFAAkACQALACsABAAkAQEggAMADgAAAMwHBQAJ AAkACwAFAAQA/gABCYABACEAAAAzODQyNEQyMkIxQThDRjExQThDRjQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMADoBgED kAYAKAIAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgABAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCg6M42wj27AR4A cAABAAAAIAAAAFJFOiBMaXN0LU1hbmFnZXJzLURpZ2VzdCBWNSAjOTMAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbs9 wjbOIk1COaixEc+oz0RFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAACAAAAByb2Jl cnRfa2FwZWxhQHNwZW5jZXItZGF2aXMuY29tAAMABhCLLBWFAwAHEDUAAAAeAAgQAQAAADYAAABV TlNVQlNDUklCRUxJU1QtTUFOQUdFUlNST0JFUlRLQVBFTEFAU1BFTkNFUi1EQVZJU0NPTQAAAAIB CRABAAAAygAAAMYAAABlAQAATFpGdbgfd1v/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYA BsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM7cC5AcTAoM0EswUxX0KgIsIzwnZOxefMjU1AoAHCoENsQtg bmcxMDMvFFALChViDAFjAEAgdQkAgHViBPJiZSBsyQQAdC0DgWFnBJAEIAcDYB0QACBfa2FwZUkL YEBzHrBuYwSQLahkYXYEAC4FoG0KhfMKix1AMzYN8BtrIHYWwQIAI0AAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAA AABAAAcwwMgXIMI9uwFAAAgwwMgXIMI9uwEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAJd8 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB3D8A.9DC2EF80-- From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 10:02:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA13718 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA13684 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 09:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.133.220.127] (cmh-ppp27.netset.com [205.133.220.127]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet) with SMTP id MAA19587; Thu, 9 May 1996 12:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Alan Deikman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:52 AM 5/9/96, Alan Deikman wrote: >Kimberly wrote: > >>On 9 May 96 at 1:27, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: >> >>> [...] >>> Do any of you have any suggestions? Am I just >>> going to have to live with this? >> >>Ugh. I know of whom you speak. I popped in to said newsgroup for >>the first time about a week ago and was shocked at her >>contributions. > >Just out of purient curiosity, what is the subject matter of >these lists that arouses the interest of "psychotic chicks"? Believe it or not... it's a mailing list for adoptees who are searching for their birth families! This particular person feels that all birth mothers are "evil whores," and that any adoptee who has a sucessful reunion is a "do-bee" who is in denial of the true abuse they have suffered as the result of being "abandoned." *sigh* And I thought an adoptees' list would be non-controversial! :-) Dana Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Moderator, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ As soon as humankind began to discover the truth about itself, we began to find ways to cover up that truth. But maybe that's for the best: Our ability to delude ourselves may be an important survival tool. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 10:42:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA16822 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 10:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [199.171.26.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA16815 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 10:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605091731.KAA16815@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7758; Thu, 09 May 96 13:29:11 EDT Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 13:29:04 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: note of 05/09/96 13:25 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 B183, 2J145 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) wrote: >Believe it or not... it's a mailing list for adoptees who are >searching for their birth families! This particular person >feels that all birth mothers are "evil whores," and that >any adoptee who has a sucessful reunion is a "do-bee" who is >in denial of the true abuse they have suffered as the result >of being "abandoned." It's Celeste, isn't it? Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** 1996 Cleveland Indians: They Rock the Major Leagues! **** From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 14:12:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA09313 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA09267 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from max1-dyn45.mindspring.com [205.164.235.45] by borg.mindspring.com with SMTP id QAA17447; Thu, 9 May 1996 16:58:24 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960509205636.0096f15c@ding.mindspring.com> X-Sender: robbie@ding.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 16:56:36 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Robbie Honerkamp Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Cc: chrisf@cc.gatech.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In fact, perhaps it would be useful for us to get together a > definitive list of addresses that these should be reported to, since > postmaster doesn't always seem to work terribly well these days. I just happen to have those handy.. :) postmaster@aol.com (Of course) abuse@aol.com (To report AOL abuse) PMDAtropos@aol.com (Found in whois record) Mackey@aol.com (ditto) roman@escape.com (runs escape.com, where Kevin gets his mail) postmaster@escape.com (Just to be official.. :) root@escape.com (..and thorough) fabozzip@icpma.com (from whois on peakaccess.net, where Kevin gets his dialup access) postmaster@peakaccess.net root@peakaccess.net merlyn@peakaccess.net (Runs PeakAccess, where Kevin gets his dialup access) Robbie -- Robbie Honerkamp robbie@shorty.com, robbie@grumblesmurf.net, robbie@mindspring.com http://www.shorty.com/~robbie/ Would you be prepared if gravity reversed itself? -from "Real Genius" From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 15:22:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14550 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from borg.mindspring.com (borg.mindspring.com [204.180.128.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA14433 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from max1-dyn45.mindspring.com [205.164.235.45] by borg.mindspring.com with SMTP id RAA17773; Thu, 9 May 1996 17:52:23 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960509215035.008fa2e8@ding.mindspring.com> X-Sender: robbie@ding.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 17:50:35 -0400 To: Project Genesis From: Robbie Honerkamp Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cc:ed to List-managers. At 05:34 PM 5/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >At 04:56 PM 5/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >>roman@escape.com (runs escape.com, where Kevin gets his mail) >>postmaster@escape.com (Just to be official.. :) >>root@escape.com (..and thorough) >Where did you find this? We only got it on list-managers when someone posted >his phone # and I called his machine... escape.com is the mx for kjl.com, which is his domain. And he also appears to have a shell there.. >[ding] /home/robbie> finger krazykev@escape.com >[escape.com] >Login: krazykev Name: Kevin Jay Lipsitz >Directory: /home/home2/krazykev Shell: /bin/tcsh >Last login Thu May 9 13:12 (EDT) on ttyt9 from ppp1.dialup.peakaccess.net >Plan: >Location: >Age: >Computer Type: >Hobbies: >Occupation: >Other: And that also refers to peakaccess.net as where he gets his access from. >>fabozzip@icpma.com (from whois on peakaccess.net, where Kevin gets his >>dialup access) >>postmaster@peakaccess.net >>root@peakaccess.net >>merlyn@peakaccess.net (Runs PeakAccess, where Kevin gets his dialup access) > >And this? This is more difficult to find out. I had no clue. The peakaccess.net information came from the above finger information. I went to the Peakaccess.net web page, and found that merlyn is the personal mailbox of the guy who runs it. Check out this URL. It's got TONS of info on him. http://www.iac.co.jp/~issho/stop-spam.html Robbie -- Robbie Honerkamp robbie@shorty.com, robbie@grumblesmurf.net, robbie@mindspring.com http://www.shorty.com/~robbie/ Would you be prepared if gravity reversed itself? -from "Real Genius" From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 16:57:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA24606 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 16:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access4.digex.net (access4.digex.net [205.197.245.195]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA24597 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 16:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000212.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.212]) by access4.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02506 ; for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 19:39:55 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960509234022.0069ea10@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 19:40:22 -0400 To: List Managers List From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Important (off-topic) FYI Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Someone on one of my lists posted this info and I thought that I should pass it on to all of you. Please forgive the off-topic use of bandwidth. > Here is some useful info for those of you that may travel with a > laptop computer: > > F.Y.I. > > Tom Godbout > Division of Administrative Services > -------------------------------------- > > The University of Michigan Risk Management Office cautions travelers > about the potential theft of laptop computers at airports: We have > recently learned of a hustle that's being employed at airports all > across the country to steal laptop computers. It involves two persons > who look for a victim carrying a laptop and approaching a metal > detector. They position themselves in front of the unsuspecting > passenger. They stall until the mark puts the laptop computer on the > conveyer belt. Then the first subject moves through the metal > detector easily. The second subject sets off the detector and begins > a slow process of emptying pockets, removing jewelry, etc. While this > is happening, the first subject takes the laptop as soon as it appears > on the conveyor belt and moves away quickly. When the passenger > finally gets through the metal detector, the laptop is gone. The > subject that picks it up heads into the gate area and disappears among > the crowd. Sometimes a third subjectwill take a handoff from the > first subject and the computer is out of the restricted area before > the mark even knows that it is gone. > > This is becoming a widely practiced problem and is happening at > airports everywhere. When traveling with a laptop computer, try to > avoid lines to enter a metal detector when possible. When you can't > do that, delay putting your luggage and laptop on the conveyor belt > until you are sure that you will be the nexperson through the metal > detector. As you move through the metal detector, keep your eyes on > the conveyor belt and watch for your luggage and laptop to come > through, as well as watching for what those in front of you are > picking up. > > Above message provided by George Cubberly, University of Michigan Risk > Management Office, and forwarded by the BTG, Inc. Security Service > Center. Jack Jack Schnapper jjflash@pobox.com Kajor Inc. - Computer Services http://www.pobox.com/~kajor From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 17:12:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26185 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 17:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (gorplex.j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA26178 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 17:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb11.j51.com [165.254.214.43]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA25436 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960510001313.006ed6f4@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:13:13 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: He's home. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 718-967-1234. Kevin himself. Doesn't want to talk to me, because I don't feel like giving my name to someone who likes to mailbomb in response to any incoming mail... Ken Menken From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 17:42:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27819 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 17:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toko.graphics.cornell.edu (TOKO.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.155]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA27809 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 17:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by toko.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA07635; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:38:46 -0400 Message-Id: <9605100038.AA07635@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> To: Project Genesis Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: He's home. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 May 96 20:13:13 EDT." <2.2.32.19960510001313.006ed6f4@j51.com> Date: Thu, 09 May 96 20:38:46 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >718-967-1234. Kevin himself. Doesn't want to talk to me, because I don't >feel like giving my name to someone who likes to mailbomb in response to any >incoming mail... So make up a name. It's not like he didn't think of it first. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 18:44:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00450 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 18:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA00444 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 18:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06068 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 18:29:18 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20467; Thu, 9 May 96 18:29:17 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9605100129.AA20467@siesta> Subject: MOre kevin via AOL To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 18:29:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, he's doing it again from AOL: >From Conroy675@aol.com Thu May 9 21:14:50 1996 Return-Path: Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com) by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4. 1-hack1) id AA26580; Thu, 9 May 96 21:14:50 EDT Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA05761; Thu, 9 May 1996 2 0:51:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:51:38 -0400 From: Conroy675@aol.com Message-Id: <960509205137_110395895@emout19.mail.aol.com> Subject: Interesting place I found in a remote corner of the net Apparently-To: From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 19:27:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA02715 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 19:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA02709 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 19:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id VAA07349 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 21:17:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199605100217.VAA07349@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: KK is busy. Now called conroy675. Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 21:17:45 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This just in... ------- Forwarded Message Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id UAA06908 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:33:51 -0500 From: Conroy675@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA01271; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:52:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 20:52:26 -0400 Message-ID: <960509205226_110396510@emout08.mail.aol.com> ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 20:27:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA04308 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA04295 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id UAA11927 for on Thu, 9 May 1996 20:12:53 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960510031331.0094a880@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:13:31 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: AOL free accounts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to know just how much of this magazine crap we'll have to put up with before AOL changes their policy on their free accounts to prevent such abuse. I'd really hate to do this, as about 15% of my subscribers jack-in via AOL, but could we put pressure on AOL by banding together and rejecting all posts from aol.com for one week? This might cause enough readership backlash against AOL so they would stop this crazy policy of theirs that allows people Internet access with no responsibility. If KK was forced to use *verifiable* credit card numbers, at least a good paper trail could be started. If he used false numbers, he could get nailed on credit card fraud alone - I would think that would be an easier case to win, given the level of judicial ignorance of the net. I realize they are doing their best to get this guy, but it seems their current method for dealing with the situation is similar to the strategy one uses to play the "whack the mole" game you find at carnivals and boardwalks... -todd- From list-managers-owner Thu May 9 20:57:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA06183 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA06177 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 20:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adimail.adiva.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.6.12/SMI-5.4-PSI) id XAA19589; Thu, 9 May 1996 23:48:40 -0400 Received: by adimail.adiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28211; Thu, 9 May 96 23:44:22 EDT Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:44:21 -0400 (EDT) From: George Pearson X-Sender: george@adimail To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960510031331.0094a880@mail.di.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 May 1996, Todd Day wrote: > ... but it seems their > current method for dealing with the situation is similar to the > strategy one uses to play the "whack the mole" game you find at carnivals > and boardwalks... Very, very apt. Gave me a good laugh! - george From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 05:42:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA25909 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 05:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA25903 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 05:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA24304; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:25:33 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960509205636.0096f15c@ding.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:10:41 -0400 To: Robbie Honerkamp , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Cc: chrisf@cc.gatech.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:56 PM -0400 5/9/96, Robbie Honerkamp wrote: > postmaster@aol.com (Of course) > abuse@aol.com (To report AOL abuse) > PMDAtropos@aol.com (Found in whois record) > Mackey@aol.com (ditto) Of course, if you just blindly post everything to all of those addresses, you'll end up making some of them go away. Please be kind and intelligently address your email, and if it's a complaint about an AOL user who is spamming, junkmailing, or otherwise abusing a mailing list or Usenet newsgroup, please send your not to abuse@aol.com and avoid filling up the other mailboxes with stuff that will just get forwarded to abuse@aol.com anyway, or deleted since the list of addressees will make it plain that it already went there. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 05:45:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA25918 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 05:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA25911 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 05:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA24314; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:25:38 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960510031331.0094a880@mail.di.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 08:16:35 -0400 To: Todd Day , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL free accounts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:13 PM -0700 5/9/96, Todd Day wrote: > If KK was forced to use *verifiable* credit card numbers, at least a > good paper trail could be started. If he used false numbers, he could > get nailed on credit card fraud alone - I would think that would be an > easier case to win, given the level of judicial ignorance of the net. It is my understanding that the registration process is already being changed to verify credit card numbers on-the-fly with credit bureaus and services. I've been trying to get them to add a $50-100 charge to an account when it is terminated with cause, so that we can make the credit card companies start considering this stuff seriously, and take what is a "What the hell, it's free and they can't do anything to me" into a "If I do this and intentionally screw with people, there will be real-world financial repercussions" type of situation. If you like this idea (of have any other suggestions on what we should do to stop this kind of abuse), I recommend you drop a note to SteveCase@aol.com, which has a whole team of folks that read and reply to suggestions both by members and people outside of AOL. Internal suggestions (like mine) can only go so far, but significant support for the same idea from the outside can only help that kind of cause. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 06:12:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27173 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA27167 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 06:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA02098 ; for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:00:23 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605101300.JAA02098@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: New manager's woes To: flowers_s@Mercer.EDU (Sandra Hollin Flowers) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Sandra Hollin Flowers" at May 9, 96 02:43:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Sandra Hollin Flowers ... these are private lists, (...) First, one of my lists has, as I say, fallen completely silent. Since it's about technology and teaching, there is plenty to say, but no one seems to want to say it. Have any of you faced a situation like this--great enthusiasm and a rapid wave of subscribers when the list was announced followed by sudden death? What do you do? "Entertain" them yourselves (for, indeed, that's what I began to feel as though I was doing) with weekly posts? I've tried everything from surveys and "editorials" to raising what I thought were provocative issues. All to little or no avail. Now I myself no longer post, and it's as though the list does not exist. Insights? I have run into this many times in volunteer initiatives. Email doesn't render one immune. The subscribers probably find that more traditional communication channels, from professional journals to hallway conversation, meet their needs on this topic without the arduous process of writing email to a small group of similarly masochistic people. Email lists, like other small businesses, flourish where they fill an otherwise-unmet demand. If it were a topic where it was hard to find someone else to talk to, the prognosis for the list might be better. My other list is a 30-member manual operation--that is, the mailing list exists on 30 different computers operating a variety of email and communications software. This list is a core group which volunteered to set the parameters for a public list. We're now ready to go public. We intend to keep the subscription level at about 100, and, if the present 30 are any indication, it will be a low-traffic list. My own institution's server can accommodate the list I described above, but not this second one. My question, then, is how does one go about finding a server for a homeless list? You have 30 in the organizing committee and you can't scrape up a host for an MLM? You should have thought about that when you formed the organizing committee. What service will the list provide? Who will gain? Network with advocacy groups (and individuals) who are stakeholders for this interest. See what this leads you to. The rates at POBox.com seem reasonable. Who licensed these 30 to set the parameters for the public? You 30 are engaged on an entrepreneurial gamble. You now need to test-market your service concept and find out what the public really wants. Be prepared to make changes. -- Al Gilman http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ [lynx/FAQ/Als_picks.html] From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 06:27:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27510 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 06:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.utu.fi (sol.utu.fi [130.232.1.30]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA27504 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 06:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by utu.fi id <15834-21878>; Fri, 10 May 1996 16:14:19 +0300 From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: KK/Magazine SPAM looks like some pyramide scheme Message-Id: <96May10.161419+0300eet_dst.15834-21878+151@utu.fi> Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:14:10 +0300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, When looking at these Magazine SPAMs, they appear to have some field which says: "from where you heard of this ?", and has pre-entered name + code at them. I have started to suspect that the original perpetrator has hidden behind a slew of fooled (..to spam) people, by claiming to give old customers some trinkets (or whatever) for every N new "customer" lured in. Up until recently I have been able to run a bunch of lists at my systems in a setup which is esentially a big alias expansion, without any intervening programs (like Majordomo) to auto-sensor the messages. For my extreme sad, I have now had to install such auto-traps... /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 07:12:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA00230 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA00213 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JE78YA9S0032YB@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:03:44 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1881"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JE6QTSOW002K3N@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:03:28 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA04757; Fri, 10 May 96 11:02:51 -0300 Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:02:51 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: AOL free accounts To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9605101402.AA04757@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I found the posting by Todd Day kind of puzzling. I helped my mother sign up with AOL earlier this year, and they most definitely DO require a verified credit card as part of the signup procedure, before you can start using it free of charge. In fact, the credit card checking is so stringent that she almost signed up with CompuServe instead -- AOL rejected her first card. I also tried to sign up with AOL in January, figuring that I could use the free month to learn enough to help my mother, but at the time they had no way of verifying any of my credit cards (since they are all with Canadian banks), and I wasn't able to sign up at all. If Todd knows some way of signing up with AOL without having a verifiable credit card, I'd be interested in hearing about it. Bill Silvert Forwarded message: >Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 20:13:31 -0700 >From: Todd Day >Subject: AOL free accounts > >I'd like to know just how much of this magazine crap we'll have to >put up with before AOL changes their policy on their free accounts >to prevent such abuse... > >If KK was forced to use *verifiable* credit card numbers, at least a >good paper trail could be started. If he used false numbers, he could >get nailed on credit card fraud alone - I would think that would be an >easier case to win, given the level of judicial ignorance of the net. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 07:27:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA00705 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA00656 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JEEGNDLS00354S@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:09:32 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1892"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JEE49K800000Z8@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:09:23 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA04804; Fri, 10 May 96 11:08:53 -0300 Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:08:53 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Quiet lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9605101408.AA04804@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Sandra Hollin Flowers > First, one of my lists has, as I say, fallen completely silent. I'm sure many of us are used to this, but I might point out to Sandra that it is a common "problem". In fact, I've had a couple of lists where there was such a flurry of activity that everyone started screaming for digests or some other solution, and then after I went to the trouble of setting up digests or other alternative lists, the traffic fell to one message a week or less! To top it off, a couple of people on one list complained that weekly digests weren't up-to-date, they wanted daily digests, even though there was almost never more than one message per day. I write "problem" in quotes because I think that the Golden Rule of mailing list membership is, "If you don't have anything to say, don't say it." -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:03:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA03776 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA03770 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 07:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605101451.HAA03770@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6052; Fri, 10 May 96 16:49:07 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 6690; Fri, 10 May 1996 16:49:07 +0200 Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:41:32 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: AOL free accounts To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 10 May 1996 08:16:35 -0400 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't think the $50-100 fee is the right approach. First off, legally you can't charge the card without the owner's consent. So, the only way you can put the charge in is if you explicitly mention this in your sign up banner and require the free trial user to agree to these terms. This is guaranteed to scare a lot of non-spammers, especially if the description is vague. Then if the description is more detailed, you'll be burying the huge majority of non-spammers into details they really don't need to see or understand, and they might conclude that AOL is a place where you meet bad people. Besides, in a best case scenario this adds $50-100 to the material costs of the spam. I might stop KK, but it won't stop people who post spams for a fee; they'll just add the $100 to their costs, and it will still be ultra cheap. All you need to do is add a warning saying that any usage of the AOL account for illegal activities or for spamming will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This won't surprise or shock honest customers, in fact it might even be good PR. Above all, it has the potential of costing the spammer a lot more than $100, and you can still decide not to sue if you don't want to. I also think that if you sued KK, the other spammers would think twice before acting. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:27:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA06339 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA06309 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:22:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts24-08.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.139.88]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id LAA09176; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199605101514.LAA09176@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brad Knowles From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:10 AM 10/05/96 -0400, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 4:56 PM -0400 5/9/96, Robbie Honerkamp wrote: > > Of course, if you just blindly post everything to all of those >addresses, you'll end up making some of them go away. Please be kind >and intelligently address your email... Brad has a good point. Postmasters are, after all, working stiffs like us all. They aren't the mad cows, they're the guys with the shovels. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:42:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA07550 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [199.171.26.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA07533 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605101533.IAA07533@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3177; Fri, 10 May 96 11:31:33 EDT Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:31:25 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM In-Reply-To: note of 05/10/96 11:18 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 B183, 2J145 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: AOL free accounts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas wrote: >All you need to do is add a warning saying that any usage of the AOL >account for illegal activities or for spamming will be prosecuted to the >fullest extent of the law. This won't surprise or shock honest customers, >in fact it might even be good PR. Above all, it has the potential of >costing the spammer a lot more than $100, and you can still decide not to >sue if you don't want to. I also think that if you sued KK, the other >spammers would think twice before acting. Spam is not illegal at this time (excepting chain letters perhaps). What would you base a lawsuit on? Also, I don't think we should be asking AOL to change their very successful marketing practices based on the actions of a few idiots. (Disclaimer: I do own AOL stock, although I don't use it.) However, I do like the idea I think someone mentioned of not allowing access to the Internet from AOL until credit card information is confirmed. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** 1996 Cleveland Indians: They Rock the Major Leagues! **** From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:46:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA07299 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA07281 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id KAA31416; Fri, 10 May 1996 10:32:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199605101532.KAA31416@schoneal.com> Subject: good net.citizenship - fighting spammers To: SteveCase@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:32:11 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. In addition to being a typical moderate-to-heavy email and usenet news user, I also manage a couple of mailing lists. So I see an above-average number of spams and attempts. A number of these seem to come via aol.com - of late "Krazy Kevin" has used AOL quite a bit. I realize you are trying hard to stop this, but I think you are playing a losing game for now. Why? Because (a) it's too easy to join AOL, and (b) there is no penalty for abuse. I understand why you want to make it easy to join AOL. I have no problem with that. The trick is to make it easy only for *legitimate* users. An acquaintance came up with what sounds to me like the perfect idea - a combination of prior approval and a charge for abuse. Stores everywhere have instant credit card approval - that part I know you can provide. But beyond that, simply change the user agreement to state that if the user is terminated for abuse (spams, harassment, etc), that part of that termination is an additional charge on the credit card. I suggest something like this: $500 - first abuse by a user (any card) $2500 - second abuse by a user (any card) $5000 - third abuse by a user (any card) Further abuses will result in legal action. This not only provides a disincentive for abuse, but if you do have to take legal action, you have something tangible to show in terms of prior history. Please consider this and let me know what you think. Sincerely, Miles O'Neal President Schober O'Neal, Inc. meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:50:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA08450 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vorlon.mit.edu (VORLON.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.139]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA08443 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jered@localhost) by vorlon.mit.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19230; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:39:35 -0400 Message-Id: <199605101539.LAA19230@vorlon.mit.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Eric Thomas cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 May 1996 16:41:32 +0200." <199605101451.HAA03770@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:39:34 EDT From: Jered Floyd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't think the $50-100 fee is the right approach. First off, legally > you can't charge the card without the owner's consent. So, the only way > you can put the charge in is if you explicitly mention this in your sign > up banner and require the free trial user to agree to these terms. On the contrary, I think it is a very good idea. Not many people read all of the license agreement in the first place, but those who do probably won't be the least bit frightened by a clause specifying that users will be charged for 'inappropriate use of system resources (e.g. mass mailing to thousands of Internet addresses)'; or something similar. > All you need to do is add a warning saying that any usage of the AOL > account for illegal activities or for spamming will be prosecuted to the > fullest extent of the law. This won't surprise or shock honest customers, > in fact it might even be good PR. I think you misunderstand our legal system somewhat. It would cost AOL absurd amounts of money to sue one of these spammers; and for what could they be sued? You mention the 'fullest extent of the law'... what do you feel applies? Unless the license agreement specifies that users will be held responsible for their actions; but then we're back in the first case with fines. So, instead of just charging spammers $50, now AOL should put stronger language in the license, and spend thousands of dollars _suing_ spammers to collect a $50 fine? And even if they were to sue Krazy Kevin, or a similar spammer, I don't think that other spammers would take note. For them to take note, the lawsuit would have to be widely publicized so that potential spammers would be aware (not very good PR, I think), AND the potential spammers would have to be logical, intelligent, scrupulous people. Not likely. --Jered Floyd jered@mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:55:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA06799 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA06784 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA13685 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:24:58 -0400 Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: List Managers LIST Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-Reply-To: <199605101451.HAA03770@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 10 May 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > I don't think the $50-100 fee is the right approach. First off, legally . . . > costs, and it will still be ultra cheap. I agree with Eric on this one... KISS is a good policy for everything. Also, the more you say, the more you lock yourself into a course of action. For instance, if you put a specific action/warning in place, you can *only* take that acction that is specified. If you are general about the warning, however, you can use whatever means are at your disposal to enforce the policy... > sue if you don't want to. I also think that if you sued KK, the other > spammers would think twice before acting. I whole-heartedly agree! Sue the knickers off him, AOL! Seriously... AOL could account for all the time and resources they have spent shutting him down (or "bapping the gopher on the head" to continue the carnival analogy) and slap him with a big lawsuit. Can we say "frighten the pantaloons off spammers around the world" boys and girls? I knew you could. After getting on the internet, I've finally removed myself from a lot of the junk-mail mailing lists. After years, my junk mail volume has dropped dramatically. Now they're trying to send it to me on my account? I don't think so... Grrr. Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMZNfyZo1JaC71RLxAQEiSQP/ejguQUJzKsmp+SycmdYLsByu3Ojflemp fUk6ot7uDGlk+3AFZ2xpscmzB/fRDSKS2pQ75wd7Ykgf8beD5l3VkfO3KeCpWoO4 7/5mzwRUXNlpx4twg7Rhi6RUD0d0g5ETuunvnXbbJi4ZyEjoA2EUIZCy2ARZHSMp HykaFyhUd7c= =+y/R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 08:57:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA09141 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA09112 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 08:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10804 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 16:40:00 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:41:47 GMT Message-ID: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a problem that I've faced, though on a lesser scale, with one of my lists; since it's a gay list, I don't think people should forward messages and potentially out people. But it does happen. Usually strong words are enough. If you have the time (and the energy), you could try drastic tactics: Take a post (or construct one) that you think is likely to be forwarded from the list. Split the membership into, say ten chunks, and create ten slightly different versions of the post. Perhaps a little extra punctuation in different paragraphs. Send it out manually, then wait and see which version gets posted to the newsgroup. You'll have narrowed (hopefully!) the culprits down to 10% of the list. Iterate as necessary. Another way of checking out some of the ways that a message might be getting out is to include headers to trigger receipts and acknowledgements, and compare the hundreds that come back with the list membership. I've periodically done this to verify all the addresses, but it's a lot of work. If you send an individual message to each person you might get information back that will reveal whether or not list messages are being automatically forwarded to a third party from a particular address. Or you might have to read through 1000 receipts for nothing. It's all a lot of work, but I don't see any other way to do it. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 09:42:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA14896 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA14652 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11497 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 17:25:04 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:47:33 GMT Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.19960509205636.0096f15c@ding.mindspring.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <2.2.32.19960509205636.0096f15c@ding.mindspring.com>, Robbie Honerkamp wrote: > [a rather long list] I think that, as far as possible, it's necessary to have only one address for each online service. If people are going to use automatic responses to alert services to their spams, sending multiple notifications could create almost as much hassle as the spams themselves. Thinking about this some more, how desireable would it be for people to receive an automatic abuse notice as soon as a spam hits a list? If every list did it, I guess it would be a nightmare for service providers; while it might give some of them an idea of the extent of the problem that their subscribers are causing, I don't think, for example, AOL are exactly in the dark about the problem, and flooding them completely would seem inappropriate. So, how do you draw the line between early notification and swamping service providers with automatic complaints? Should there be a standard format for messages to allow them to be filtered easily, or a limit of one notification per week/day? Or perhaps people should be encouraged to filter on all their lists, but only notify from one per host. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 09:59:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA15701 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e55.webcom.com (e55.webcom.com [206.2.192.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA15688 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605101646.JAA15688@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by e55.webcom.com (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA243006687; Fri, 10 May 1996 09:44:47 -0700 From: Thomas Leavitt Subject: HPUX-ADMIN Digest V1 #466 (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 9:44:47 PDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amazing, isn't it, that one single person can wreak havoc on a world-wide basis. Sigh. Imagine the amount of lost productivity caused by this. Thomas > > > HPUX-ADMIN Digest Thursday, 9 May 1996 Volume 01 : Number 466 > > In this issue: > > [HPADM] ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! > [HPADM] ===>> FREE 1 yr USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide-270+ Choices! > [none] > [HPADM] Agree about getting rid of mail about free mags > [HPADM] Installing Bash and Perl on HPUX 10.01 > [HPADM] Series 300 problem > [HPADM] Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 283+ Popular USA Titles > [HPADM] SUMMARY: Series 300 problem > [HPADM] Out of Inodes > [HPADM] 10.10 and sockets > [HPADM] Re: Agree about getting rid of mail about free mags > [HPADM] ksh script > [HPADM] Re: Agree about getting rid of mail about free m > [HPADM] Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 283+ Popular USA Titles > [HPADM] User on your systems who is abusing your services > [HPADM] Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 283+ Popular USA Titles > [HPADM] Re: User on your systems who is abusing your services > [HPADM] Re: Magazine offer > [HPADM] Magazine offer > [HPADM] Re: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 283+ Popular USA Titles (fwd) > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the hpux-admin > or hpux-admin-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. > From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 10:42:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA20391 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA20382 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 10:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id MAA04545 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id MAA07285 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:11:23 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199605101711.MAA07285@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Kev again To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:11:23 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thomas Leavitt: > Amazing, isn't it, that one single person can wreak havoc on a world-wide > basis. Sigh. Imagine the amount of lost productivity caused by this. I hate to say it, but it looks like Kev used the PAML for this latest round. At least I've noticed a lot of PAML listed lists targetted this time around that weren't before. Ironically, he still has not hit any of my lists. Ever. From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 11:13:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23301 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 10:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA23283 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 10:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 305); 10 May 1996 17:54:02 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) In-reply-to: A message of "Fri, 10 May 1996 15:47:33 GMT." Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 13:54:00 -0400 Message-ID: <27052.831750840@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk wrt AOL: since AOL has a listserv one should be able to assume they have been notified of all the recent spams mentioned on this list. i have no idea who knows what at AOL but at least some folks are notified quite early in the process. just so you know listserv is a trademark of l-soft. -------- In reply to Nigel Whitfield : Thinking about this some more, how desireable would it be for people to receive an automatic abuse notice as soon as a spam hits a list? If every list did it, I guess it would be a nightmare for service providers; while it might give some of them an idea of the extent of the problem that their subscribers are causing, I don't think, for example, AOL are exactly in the dark about the problem, and flooding them completely would seem inappropriate. --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 12:05:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00807 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:55:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA00788 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id LAA06484; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:47:55 -0700 Received: from uumail3.netcom.com(163.179.3.53) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006482; Fri May 10 11:46:55 1996 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA17953; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:51:15 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA03937; Fri, 10 May 96 11:01:36 -0700 Date: Fri, 10 May 96 11:01:36 -0700 Message-Id: <9605101801.AA03937@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Kev again Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:11 PM 5/10/96 -0500, Stephanie wrote: >Ironically, he still has not hit any of my lists. Ever. The suspicion of complicity this engenders is hard to escape. And just what did you pay him? -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 12:42:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA06143 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA06116 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.246] (liv22.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.246]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08913 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:37:51 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: AOL Account Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It just dawned on me that (while we already had an internet account, in fact several), we actually installed AOL and started to go through the one month trial process, but stopped at the point where it required our credit card number. We don't do that. So we never got to see the virtues of AOL. This points out the dilemma that AOL has. They're trying to make it easy for us, legitimate prospective customers, and at the same time make it hard (or better, painful) for bogus folks. Same reason Sears has store security in plain clothes. From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 13:00:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA08618 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA08603 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 12:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id MAA20557 for on Fri, 10 May 1996 12:51:09 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960510195146.009b53f8@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:51:46 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #96 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I helped my mother >sign up with AOL earlier this year, and they most definitely DO require >a verified credit card as part of the signup procedure, before you can >start using it free of charge. In fact, the credit card checking is so >stringent that she almost signed up with CompuServe instead -- AOL >rejected her first card. Hmmmm... from what I've heard and read (and even maybe read on this list) was that AOL's CC verification doesn't *really* verify the card for a period up to 24 hours after the account is created. If I'm uninformed about this, I apologize to AOL. -todd- From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 13:27:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA11289 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 13:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA11272 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27959; Fri, 10 May 1996 15:17:35 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 15:17:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Todd Day cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #96 In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960510195146.009b53f8@mail.di.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 May 1996, Todd Day wrote: > Hmmmm... from what I've heard and read (and even maybe read on this > list) was that AOL's CC verification doesn't *really* verify the card > for a period up to 24 hours after the account is created. If I'm > uninformed about this, I apologize to AOL. I'm not sure how AOL does it, but its fairly common for front line credit card verification to consist of verifying the checksum of the card number. The checksum generates the final digit of the card and is usually used in hopes of keeping people from putting down random numbers as a card number. I would be more concerned about AOL closing the holes that allow various programs like AOHell to work. I've not looked at these, but it seems that there is a very serious problem if determined spammers can open new accounts just by running some program. Most of the lists I'm on don't allow postings from non-subscribers so I've not seen alot for the KK problems. Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 16:12:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23487 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 15:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA23481 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA15050; Fri, 10 May 1996 18:56:09 -0400 Message-Id: <9605102256.AA15050@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Kev again In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 May 96 12:11:23 CDT." <199605101711.MAA07285@bonkers.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:56:07 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I hate to say it, but it looks like Kev used the PAML for this latest >round. At least I've noticed a lot of PAML listed lists targetted >this time around that weren't before. Hmm. I thought he'd always used it since my list that's on it has always been hit while the one that not has never been hit. >Ironically, he still has not hit any of my lists. Ever. Perhaps your reputation preceeded you. :-) -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 17:14:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA25266 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 17:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA25260 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JMI9AUXC0031DY@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 15:02:10 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1973"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4JMF26L8W01741V@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 10 May 1996 14:59:32 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA06611; Fri, 10 May 96 14:58:35 -0300 Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 14:58:34 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Are we running AOL? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9605101758.AA06611@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not sure how all this discussion is helping me manage mailing lists, it certainly is taking up more space and time than most spams. But since List-Managers seems to have turned into AOL-Spam-Solvers, I'd like to comment on an idea that seems to be cropping up here: >Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 10:32:11 -0500 (CDT) >From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) >Subject: good net.citizenship - fighting spammers > >the user agreement to state that if the user is >terminated for abuse (spams, harassment, etc), >that part of that termination is an additional >charge on the credit card. I suggest something >like this: > >$500 - first abuse by a user (any card) >$2500 - second abuse by a user (any card) >$5000 - third abuse by a user (any card) > >Further abuses will result in legal action. This involves assigning an awful lot of power to the ISPs, and many of us would be reluctant to enter into a contract where the other party not only had the power to terminate us without any mechanism for a fair hearing or for appeal, but could hit us with hefty fines as well. Doesn't it seem kind of inconsistent that some of the mail on this list about AOL claims that it is a corrupt organisation run by incompetents, and yet we want to give it this kind of incredible arbitrary power? (I don't agree with this assessment, but I don't have total faith in AOL either.) Not all "spams" or "harassment" are clearcut, and I know cases where accusations have been made that many reasonable people would disagree with. So I don't think that we are going to solve our problems with kangaroo courts. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 18:00:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26766 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 17:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA00301 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.246] (liv22.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.246]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA08730 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:50:00 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #93 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You don't even have to do that. Just assert copyright in the "Welcome to the List" message, and (if you want to be legally sound, more or less) requiring the new subscriber to reply with the contents of an agreement included in the Welcome, agreeing. If not, no subscribe. 'Course, you'd have to at least try to get existing members to do this too. >You could also cook up a scheme where each list member signs over copyright >of their message to you, then you include a copyright notice with each >message. Then you can attempt to have the annoying person's admin shut >them down for copyright violation. This is stretching things pretty thin, >though (and, of course, IANAL). From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 18:01:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26616 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 17:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA24737 for ; Thu, 9 May 1996 16:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA21825 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:09 -0700 Received: from (waltz.rahul.net) by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25382 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:08 -0700 From: Steve Portigal Received: by (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA15200; Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199605092344.AA15200@> Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! To: klong@spiralnet.com Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:44:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199605090821.IAA28049@mail.phoenix.net> from "Siberia" at May 9, 96 08:20:57 am Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brings up the topic of abusive subscribers. I get people freaking out at me with incredible anger, it's quite amazing. people who can't get off the list, or post their unsubs to the list (which gets them nowhere but (local culture) a cheese message in return), and then decide to put me in their filter file, send me hate mail, threaten me phsyically, threaten to abuse the list by forwarding digests back to the list (I took care of that), etc etc. Right now this netcom subscriber is sending me everything he gets, because HE doesn't know how to get off and he's determined to "get" me. I have complained at LENGTH to abuse@netcom.com but no action has been taken. Steve -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | (interface and other) design consultants From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 19:27:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA07149 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA07143 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id WAA00957; Fri, 10 May 1996 22:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:18:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Gary Bickford cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL Account In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I signed onto AOL for a while over a year ago and after peeking into a few chat rooms found little else of interst. I then proceeded to try to remove myself and found this remarkably difficult to do. Then I got a bill for several extra months undesired service and had a big hassle with them in which they agree to split the difference, as a result I am not tempted to deal with them again. Pipeline attracted my atttention early on but their browser at first was filled with bugs and I ask them to remove me from their system which they did quickly and graciously. Sometime later I was reinvited to try them out and they had vastly improved their browser and capacity ot add on your own software or other packages. So I use them now a one of several useful services PANIX is one for its excellent fast e-mail scanning, and webcom.com for its easy creation of mailing-lists and homepages and its extremely low megabyte rate (2.95) per 100megabytes of transmission.. I introduce these comments simply to point out the variety of sources other than AOL which is obviously for rank beginners on the Internet. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 19:42:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA08645 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA08639 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id WAA02484; Fri, 10 May 1996 22:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:38:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Bill Silvert cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are we running AOL? In-Reply-To: <9605101758.AA06611@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There seems to be an easy way to eliminate spams which while I don't like them waste more time in discussion than they are worth. The method is to monitor all lists and only forward to the subscribers relevant communications. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri May 10 19:57:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA09009 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA09003 for ; Fri, 10 May 1996 19:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id WAA03298; Fri, 10 May 1996 22:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:45:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Steve Portigal cc: klong@spiralnet.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! In-Reply-To: <199605092344.AA15200@> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I second your problems with getting unhappy users out of your hair. I took over an educational list but the university cut it off very quickly from its previous access. I used the same name but based in on a webcom list. Then they started to blame me because every time they wrote to be removed from the old list it bounced the messages back. Such threats and abuse from a group of college professors!! I cleared them off my list by hand until they could no longer reach me got bounced from my system I finally had to send each one a message that they were creating their own problem. If they didn't write no one would bounce them. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sat May 11 03:42:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA00833 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 May 1996 03:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA00819 for ; Sat, 11 May 1996 03:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4KL9LGYW0003578@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Sat, 11 May 1996 07:37:14 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 2108"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4KL9FWFK000T8GM@AC.DAL.CA>; Sat, 11 May 1996 07:37:07 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA12382; Sat, 11 May 96 07:36:49 -0300 Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 07:36:49 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9605111036.AA12382@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oliver raises an issue which I think merits comment. Moving a list by just copying the subscriber addresses from one site to another is in my opinion a dangerous practice. It is far better to tell all the subscribers to resubscribe at the new address. A bit of a hassle perhaps, but it clears out the deadwood and you avoid this problem of people trying to unsubscribe at the old address. Email addresses are remarkably persistent. Someone moved a list from this site in January 1994, and we are still getting administrative messages sent to it in May 1996. I've had to deal with angry calls to senior management here because people couldn't get of the new list by sending their messages here! So I think this type of unhappy message is an avoidable problem that can be avoided by not moving lists in this way. Bill Silvert >Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:45:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: Oliver Garfield >Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! > >I second your problems with getting unhappy users out of your hair. I >took over an educational list but the university cut it off very quickly >from its previous access. I used the same name but based in on a webcom list. >Then they started to blame me because every time they wrote to be removed >from the old list it bounced the messages back. Such threats and abuse >from a group of college professors!! I cleared them off my list by hand >until they could no longer reach me got bounced from my system >I finally had to send each one a message that they were creating their >own problem. If they didn't write no one would bounce them. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Sat May 11 07:27:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA05343 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 May 1996 07:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA05337 for ; Sat, 11 May 1996 07:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grafolog@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id OAA13087; Sat, 11 May 1996 14:17:59 GMT Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:17:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) To: Brad Knowles cc: Robbie Honerkamp , list-managers@greatcircle.com, chrisf@cc.gatech.edu In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad: On Fri, 10 May 1996, Brad Knowles wrote: > and intelligently address your email, and if it's a complaint about > mailing list or Usenet newsgroup, please send your not to > abuse@aol.com and avoid filling up the other mailboxes with stuff So explain why mail to abuse@aol.com bounces back to me, unless I include about five other addresses? << I wish I had kept the bounce mail I got saying I wasn't authorized to post messages to abuse@aol.com, since I wasn't a subscriber to the mailing list. >> xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * * OR * * * * http://members.tripod.com/~graphology/index.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sun May 12 07:57:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA02683 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 May 1996 07:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA02677 for ; Sun, 12 May 1996 07:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605121456.HAA02677@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6355; Sun, 12 May 96 16:54:26 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0754; Sun, 12 May 1996 16:54:26 +0200 Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 16:22:48 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: AOL free accounts To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 10 May 1996 11:39:34 EDT from Jered Floyd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 May 1996 11:39:34 EDT Jered Floyd said: >On the contrary, I think it is a very good idea. It remains an absurd idea on simple factual grounds. Spammers currently charge their patrons about $500 for a spam. Adding $50-100 to that sum would make absolutely no difference; it would still be thousands of times cheaper than traditional media, which is how spam started in the first place. I have no idea how much KK gets paid per new subscriber from the spam ad, but somehow I doubt the magazine company makes less than $50-100 out of the spam. They simply wouldn't bother. To clarify, I'm not saying that it wouldn't make sense for AOL to do that. If AOL makes people pay $100 per spam, the spammers will probably take their "business" elsewhere and AOL won't have to worry about it any longer. But it's only going to toss the hot potato elsewhere. >Not many people read all of the license agreement in the first place, >but those who do probably won't be the least bit frightened by a clause >specifying that users will be charged for 'inappropriate use of system >resources (e.g. mass mailing to thousands of Internet addresses)'; or >something similar. Thank you for providing a perfect example of the kind of wording that would scare people who have limited but existing Internet knowledge. "Mass mailing to thousands of Internet addresses" sounds very much like a lawyer's description of a mailing list, and many people would assume it means they can't write to mailing lists from their AOL accounts. > I think you misunderstand our legal system somewhat. It would cost >AOL absurd amounts of money to sue one of these spammers; and for what >could they be sued? You mention the 'fullest extent of the law'... what >do you feel applies? It's costing AOL absurd amounts of money to handle the aftermath of the repeated spams. Maybe more than the lawsuit would cost, maybe less, I have no idea; AOL probably has full-time on-staff lawyers that cost significantly less than the ones you retain by the hour. At any rate, if they sued and established a precedent, there would be a lot less spamming. There are all sorts of non-computer laws that can be used to sue a spammer. Surely you must have heard of tele-marketing companies getting sued for lying about who they represented or because the rep gave a phony name. The only obstacle is that these laws have never been applied to electronic mail. As for your legal system, I think you're the one who doesn't understand it :-) What is going to happen to KK *concretely* if AOL sues him? Either he finds someone to defend him for free, or he's gone (unless his spams made him a millionaire, which I doubt). This is a case where there isn't going to be a clear cut answer based on simple, straightforward laws. This is a case that can drag on and on and on. AOL can bring in a bunch of experts to say all sorts of relevant things and just make the case go on while KK has to pay his lawyers by the hour. I don't know, what would *you* do if AOL sued you on something where the answer wasn't clear cut? I don't own a house, but if I did I wouldn't sell it to defend myself. I'd try to settle with AOL (actually, the government would provide me with a free lawyer, but this isn't the US). >Unless the license agreement specifies that users will be held >responsible for their actions; but then we're back in the first case >with fines. So, instead of just charging spammers $50, now AOL should >put stronger language in the license, and spend thousands of dollars >_suing_ spammers to collect a $50 fine? Your usage of the word "fine" suggests a serious misunderstanding of the US legal system. Under US law it is not possible for a contract to institute any kind of fine or other punitive damage (I think it's stupid, but it's the way it is). Punitive damages are the sole prerogative of the courts. Now sometimes it makes a lot of sense for one to want to define small fines for common violations, simply to avoid having to go to court or even talk to a lawyer to settle. You get around this by claiming that the fine offsets an extra cost you have had to bear. For instance, in case of late payment you can charge say $30 for "late payment processing" - you can get away with it even if it only really costs you $3. The problem with charging $50-100 for a spam is that it implies this is the extra cost of the spam to AOL. This in turn could make it difficult for AOL to claim later that a spam actually costs them tens of thousands of dollars or more. > And even if they were to sue Krazy Kevin, or a similar spammer, I >don't think that other spammers would take note. For them to take note, >the lawsuit would have to be widely publicized so that potential >spammers would be aware Exactly, and very likely. If AOL doesn't publicize it, someone else will. Heck, WE will! >AND the potential spammers would have to be logical, intelligent, >scrupulous people. No, they just need to be people who want to keep their car and house. Quite likely I think. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun May 12 20:27:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA01994 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 May 1996 20:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA01986 for ; Sun, 12 May 1996 20:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA15396; Sun, 12 May 1996 20:11:36 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 20:11:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: Bill Silvert cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") In-Reply-To: <9605111036.AA12382@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 May 1996, Bill Silvert wrote: > Oliver raises an issue which I think merits comment. Moving a list by > just copying the subscriber addresses from one site to another is in my > opinion a dangerous practice. It is far better to tell all the > subscribers to resubscribe at the new address. A bit of a hassle > perhaps, but it clears out the deadwood and you avoid this problem of > people trying to unsubscribe at the old address. Try doing this with 6000 subscribers. :) Many of whom had problems subscribing to it in the first place. A better solution would be to program a perl program that would grep the subscription list and create an output that would run each address through a simple subscribe program. This would not only take out the deadbeat addresses VERY quickly, but would generate a new welcome file for each subscriber. > Email addresses are remarkably persistent. Someone moved a list from > this site in January 1994, and we are still getting administrative > messages sent to it in May 1996. I've had to deal with angry calls to I can relate, we moved sites once and are still getting requests there. Now we have our own domain name, so if we ever moves sites we just change the IP address of the domain. > senior management here because people couldn't get of the new list by > sending their messages here! So I think this type of unhappy message is > an avoidable problem that can be avoided by not moving lists in this way. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun May 12 21:57:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA03963 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 May 1996 21:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id VAA03957 for ; Sun, 12 May 1996 21:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id AAA28987; Mon, 13 May 1996 00:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 00:43:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Brock Rozen cc: Bill Silvert , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't have a listserv available. Instead I use an exploder list available at essentially the cost of the megabytes of transmission from webcom.com (3.95 per 100 megabytes. I asked for and received the addresses stripped of names in a file and ftp'd this to the webcom server as a file associated with the list name. The list name can be quite large and is certainly not limited toeight characters. At 500 names the list was too large to reenter. Only a few people ever requested that they be removed. The major shortcoming is that I must remove or add new subscribers by hand which I do periodically. If they start to get crabby I just remove them *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sun May 12 23:12:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA05941 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 May 1996 23:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cgl.ucsf.EDU (cgl.ucsf.EDU [128.218.14.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA05935 for ; Sun, 12 May 1996 23:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccnext.ucsf.edu (ccnext.ucsf.EDU [128.218.80.24]) by cgl.ucsf.EDU (8.6.12/GSC4.25) with SMTP id XAA01459; Sun, 12 May 1996 23:09:22 -0700 Received: by ccnext.ucsf.edu (NX5.67d/NeXT-1.0) id AA06015; Sun, 12 May 96 23:07:49 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 May 96 23:07:49 -0700 From: dick@ccnext.ucsf.edu (Dick Karpinski) Message-Id: <9605130607.AA06015@ccnext.ucsf.edu> To: asgilman@access.digex.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, listelves@austin.sig.net Subject: Re: Moving lists (another tack FYI) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 12 May, Brock Rozen wrote: >On Sat, 11 May 1996, Bill Silvert wrote: > >> Oliver raises an issue which I think merits comment. Moving a list by >> just copying the subscriber addresses from one site to another is in my >> opinion a dangerous practice. It is far better to tell all the >> subscribers to resubscribe at the new address. A bit of a hassle >> perhaps, but it clears out the deadwood and you avoid this problem of >> people trying to unsubscribe at the old address. > >A better solution would be to program a who knows perl> perl program that would grep the subscription list and >create an output that would run each address through a simple subscribe >program. > >This would not only take out the deadbeat addresses VERY quickly, but >would generate a new welcome file for each subscriber. If you subscribe for them, then you still have to use confirmation, so you still have made life difficult for them. You might as well just bulk subscribe them and separately MAIL them a copy of the NEW IMPROVED welcome message. Those that bounce can easily be removed from the list, since the bouncing copies do contain specific addresses. Still, this will not remove those whose email disappears without a trace. Only user initiated resubscription or owner initiated renewal with user feedback can hope to clean out the addresses that point to black holes. Such a mechanism is available in LISTSERV, but not in Majordomo, I think. I don't know about others. This program, i.e. one to simulate LISTSERV style renewal confirmation is fairly easy to write, so let me know if you want one. It helps if you have a mailing address to spare for just renewal confirmations. Dick Dick Karpinski dick@itsa.ucsf.edu http://www.ucsf.edu/~dick From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 00:57:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA09096 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 00:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA09073 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 00:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) by Mercer.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13285) id <01I4N5N0QUTC8ZKDIJ@Mercer.EDU> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 13 May 1996 03:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) id <01I4N5MXYMXC8WW4W5@MACON2.MERCER.EDU>; Mon, 13 May 1996 03:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: Quiet lists In-reply-to: <9605101408.AA04804@biome.bio.dfo.ca> To: Bill Silvert Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 May 1996, Bill Silvert wrote: > that it is a common "problem". In fact, I've had a couple of lists where > there was such a flurry of activity that everyone started screaming for > digests or some other solution.... Yep, been there too, Bill! Some of my folks started asking for a digest when there was hardly anything being posted except **my** many start-up announcements and enticements to post. We use Mailserv, which I'm told doesn't allow for digests, so the issue, along with my posts, dwindled quietly away. Sandra in Maconga From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 01:14:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA09533 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 00:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA09525 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 00:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) by Mercer.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13285) id <01I4N6653WS08ZKD4L@Mercer.EDU> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 13 May 1996 03:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) id <01I4N661XIRG8WW4W5@MACON2.MERCER.EDU>; Mon, 13 May 1996 03:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:56:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-reply-to: <9605101402.AA04757@biome.bio.dfo.ca> To: Bill Silvert Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 May 1996, Bill Silvert wrote: > I helped my mother sign up with AOL earlier this year, and they most > definitely DO require a verified credit card as part of the signup > procedure, before you can start using it free of charge. In fact, the > credit card checking is so stringent that she almost signed up with > CompuServe instead -- AOL rejected her first card. My experience with AOL was the same as yours, Bill, and for me, credit card rejection proved to be an insurmountable obstacle. The same thing happened when I tried AOL's subsidiary, Global Network Navigator. At the time I was trying to subscribe to these two providers, I also had a Netcom disk. I found Netcom so much easier to sign on with that that's who I use for my graphical interface. Sandra in Maconga From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 04:15:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA20318 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 04:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20311 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 04:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA28688 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 07:03:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 07:03:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: List Managers LIST Subject: Re: Moving Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sun, 12 May 1996, Brock Rozen wrote: > Try doing this with 6000 subscribers. :) Many of whom had problems > subscribing to it in the first place. 6000? Geez. Try doing it with 600. I have enough problems with *that* many... 8) I'm getting ready to move five mailing lists, so this topic has been on my brain a little lately... What I decided to do, to remove any dead addresses (even though my daily pruning removes most of them), was to write a simple VRFY program. Instead of mailing every subscriber, the subscriber file could be VRFY'd once a week or so. Have the program open a connection to the user's server and VRFY user@host.name. It won't be a 100% perfect solution...since VRFY is sometimes turned off due to paranoia, but it certainly could cover lots of cases... My intention is to write such a program. If anyone on the list knows of such a tool that already exists, let me know...it'll save me the trouble... 8) Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMZcW85o1JaC71RLxAQGqKwQAh+ut/x1i46scxXW0EdxlpW7s6cMAGKaU aiuxt9OxWkfX4erpKZGIGbwvyQzRs2wqJ9yn1nY/Nv/yP8N+rp1OXIfG+HxwH3Bc SiczZku2KfNeoWKBVLsvi7HIr8Z9E1V5yo6gX+Hk6s2GGKUheDvNIlwwTe8usNNM sLl34mlKWVo= =FeWF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 06:20:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA25583 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 06:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp3.netcom.com [163.179.3.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA25577 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 06:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id FAA13439; Mon, 13 May 1996 05:51:20 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0uIwhu-000gcvC; Mon, 13 May 96 05:26 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") To: brozen@netvoyage.net Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 05:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Cc: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Brock Rozen" at May 12, 96 08:11:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Brock Rozen is alleged to have written => Try doing this with 6000 subscribers. :) Many of whom had problems => subscribing to it in the first place. => => A better solution would be to program a who knows perl> perl program that would grep the subscription list and => create an output that would run each address through a simple subscribe => program. => => This would not only take out the deadbeat addresses VERY quickly, but => would generate a new welcome file for each subscriber. Not quite the same thing, but since I administer seven closely related mailing lists, I've written a program that is run once a month from cron to send each subscriber a unique message to test mail addresses. The bounces are automatically unsubscribed, and it also allows subscribers to check for duplicate addresses. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | From hence, ye beauties, undeceived, james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Know, one false step is ne'er retrieved, | And be with caution bold. | Not all that tempts your wandering eyes | And heedless hearts is lawful prize; | Nor all that glisters gold. From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 12:29:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA23761 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 12:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA23351 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id LAA18595; Mon, 13 May 1996 11:21:24 -0700 Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk(194.112.32.10) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma018570; Mon May 13 11:20:43 1996 Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20678 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 19:17:40 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 18:13:41 GMT Message-ID: References: <9605111036.AA12382@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <9605111036.AA12382@biome.bio.dfo.ca>, Bill Silvert wrote: >Oliver raises an issue which I think merits comment. Moving a list by >just copying the subscriber addresses from one site to another is in my >opinion a dangerous practice. It is far better to tell all the >subscribers to resubscribe at the new address. A bit of a hassle >perhaps, but it clears out the deadwood and you avoid this problem of >people trying to unsubscribe at the old address. In my experience (uk-motss, with around 400 subscribers, has moved three times) the problem isn't too much with the subscribers, but with the information that's circulated about your list. About two years after the last move, I can still find references using AltaVista to uk-motss-request@pyra.co.uk The only hassle from a subscriber point of view was when we moved networks, and some addresses had to be rewritten to remove UUCP and JNT formats. The last move was the biggest, and we did it in stages, with a shadow of the list on the new host, jiggling reply fields to ensure that the real move happened only when we were happy that everything was working. It's important to trail it as far in advance as possible, and during parallel running, you might want to hold off on subscriptions and removals. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 13:30:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA05767 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 13:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.Stanford.EDU (mailhub.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA05757 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 13:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.64.76.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [171.64.76.140]) by mailhub.Stanford.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA21246 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 13:20:08 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wbarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (William P. Barr) Subject: Re: Are we running AOL? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oliver, >There seems to be an easy way to eliminate spams which while I don't like >them waste more time in discussion than they are worth. The method is to >monitor all lists and only forward to the subscribers relevant >communications. On a second look, this is not so easy especially if you want to assume liability for what you post to the list. List moderators are legally liable. Be careful. -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 Room 272, M/C 9025, Gates Building 2B, Stanford, CA 94305 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP Listowner: butler-sql, harpoon, phoenix-command@lists.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 14:46:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14120 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 14:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [199.171.26.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA27197 for ; Mon, 13 May 1996 06:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605131338.GAA27197@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4367; Mon, 13 May 96 09:36:34 EDT Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:36:26 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: stevep@rahul.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: note of 05/10/96 21:04 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 B183, 2J145 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: New list member needs *big-time* help!!!!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Brings up the topic of abusive subscribers. I get people freaking out >at me with incredible anger, it's quite amazing. people who can't >get off the list, or post their unsubs to the list (which gets them >nowhere but (local culture) a cheese message in return), and then decide >to put me in their filter file, send me hate mail, threaten me >phsyically, threaten to abuse the list by forwarding digests back to the >list (I took care of that), etc etc. > >Right now this netcom subscriber is sending me everything he gets, becau >HE doesn't know how to get off and he's determined to "get" me. I have >complained at LENGTH to abuse@netcom.com but no action has been taken. I hate to ask an obvious question, but.... Is there some reason you can't manually unsubscribe the individual yourself? It seems to me that if you give him what he wants, he will leave you alone. Personally, I have all my subscribers do their own unsubscribes, even though I can do it for them. But, if a case like yours arose, I would unsubscribe the individual in a hurry, just to eliminate the noise. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** 1996 Cleveland Indians: They Rock the Major Leagues! **** From list-managers-owner Mon May 13 14:55:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA15120 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 May 1996 14:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id OAA15073 for list-managers; Mon, 13 May 1996 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605132131.OAA15073@miles.greatcircle.com> From: mcb@greatcircle.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:31:57 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers Subject: [Humour] Error message of the week... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dunno why, but this one just got me! I get the image of a poor chilly little piglet trying to start a fire... (Not to mention the odd tie-in with the name of the institution.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@greatcircle.com > The original message was received at Sun, 12 May 1996 04:22:48 -0400 (EDT) > from miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34] > > ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- > <070199@edna.cc.swin.edu.au> (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... while talking to bud.cc.swin.edu.au.: > >>> RCPT To:<070199@edna.cc.swin.edu.au> > <<< 550 <070199@edna.cc.swin.edu.au>... fuzzy 'PORK' lookup failed to find any matches > > ----- Message header follows ----- From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 00:13:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA21604 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA21598 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA19945; Tue, 14 May 1996 03:03:06 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 02:58:11 -0400 To: Jonathon Blake From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: he's at it again (Approved99@aol.com) Cc: Robbie Honerkamp , list-managers@greatcircle.com, chrisf@cc.gatech.edu, BKnowles@aol.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:17 PM +0000 5/11/96, Jonathon Blake wrote: > So explain why mail to abuse@aol.com bounces back to me, > unless I include about five other addresses? This doesn't make any sense to me. If you can send me a copy of the entire message that fails, I'll look into it or forward it on to the folks who need to deal with it. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 00:16:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA21564 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA21557 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA19897; Tue, 14 May 1996 03:02:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 02:40:31 -0400 To: "Jason A. Dour" , List Managers LIST From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Moving Lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:03 AM -0400 5/13/96, Jason A. Dour wrote: > I'm getting ready to move five mailing lists, so this topic has > been on my brain a little lately... What I decided to do, to remove any > dead addresses (even though my daily pruning removes most of them), was to > write a simple VRFY program. Dunno if anyone has told you this yet or not, but as I recall, there is already such a beast written in Perl. It's called "vrfy" (strangely enough ;-), and should be on any of the major Perl ftp archive sites. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 00:20:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA21563 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA21550 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 00:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA19892; Tue, 14 May 1996 03:02:45 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605101539.LAA19230@vorlon.mit.edu> References: Your message of "Fri, 10 May 1996 16:41:32 +0200." <199605101451.HAA03770@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 02:31:29 -0400 To: Jered Floyd , Eric Thomas From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL free accounts Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:39 AM -0400 5/10/96, Jered Floyd wrote: > And even if they were to sue Krazy Kevin, or a similar spammer, I > don't think that other spammers would take note. For them to take > note, the lawsuit would have to be widely publicized so that potential > spammers would be aware (not very good PR, I think), AND the > potential spammers would have to be logical, intelligent, scrupulous > people. Not likely. Okay, how about a class-action lawsuit. That wouldn't require any corporate involvement by any particular Internet-related entity, and we could all charge Krazy Kevin or Sanford Wallace for the thousands of dollars that they have cost us each in dealing with their unsavory business practices. Can you say "Garnishee wages until the 25th Century"? I knew you could.... -Brad From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 08:13:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23560 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 08:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA23544 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 08:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id LAA12991; Tue, 14 May 1996 11:00:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:00:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Brad Knowles cc: Jered Floyd , Eric Thomas , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What is all this loose talk about class action lawsuits and thousands of dollars cost dealing with spamming? Lawsuits are never any fun unless there is reasonable prospect of making money on them and I fail to see how the spammers efforts cost thusands of dollars to the recipient. I flick hundreds of messages off with my delete key every day. I repeat if spamming is such a problem and I may see one spam in a thousand messages.. then the list should be moderated. Oliver Garfield *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 09:28:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00406 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA00381 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 09:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA03137; Tue, 14 May 1996 12:15:28 -0400 Message-Id: <9605141615.AA03137@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Oliver Garfield Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 14 May 96 11:00:53 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 May 96 12:15:27 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I repeat if spamming is such a problem and I may see one spam in >a thousand messages.. then the list should be moderated. I guess you missed the note the other day that if you moderate it you take legal responsibility for the content. Who needs that? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 09:58:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA02940 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 09:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA02923 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 09:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605141644.JAA02923@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6995; Tue, 14 May 96 12:42:09 EDT Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:42:00 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: note of 05/14/96 12:35 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 B183, 2J145 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: AOL free accounts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >> I repeat if spamming is such a problem and I may see one spam in >>a thousand messages.. then the list should be moderated. > >I guess you missed the note the other day that if you moderate it you >take legal responsibility for the content. Who needs that? Actually, I saw that post and didn't say anything at the time, but now I can't resist.... Not to knock the original poster, but on what basis does a moderator take legal responsibility for the contents of such a post? Also, would it not be possible to (a) publish your moderating criteria so that it's very clear that you are not editting for content, and/or (b) add a disclaimer to each approved post that the views reflect those of the poster and not necessarily those of the moderator? I've seen this in at least one newsgroup. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net ** "It is an honor to meet the best band in the world." ** ** -- Dan Akroyd to the Ohio State University Marching Band ** From list-managers-owner Tue May 14 12:28:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA19354 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 May 1996 12:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA19317 for ; Tue, 14 May 1996 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.5/8.7.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id PAA28762; Tue, 14 May 1996 15:18:13 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: AOL free accounts Date: 14 May 1996 15:18:12 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 27 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4nam9k$s2n@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199605141644.JAA02923@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk jcanterbury@us.ibm.com writes: >Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >>> I repeat if spamming is such a problem and I may see one spam in >>>a thousand messages.. then the list should be moderated. >>I guess you missed the note the other day that if you moderate it you >>take legal responsibility for the content. Who needs that? >Not to knock the original poster, but on what basis does a moderator take >legal responsibility for the contents of such a post? Basis of actual court decisions, both in the last 12 months. Two cases. In both, a person thought they were slandered and sued the ISP (one was Prodigy, the other CompuServe). CompuServe won the case on the grounds that a public (unmoderated) forum was used, rendering the poster solely liable. Prodigy lost, and the judge noted the reason was that Prodigy moderated the forum and therefore was responsible. Usual disclaimers: I have a vague memory, real life is more complex than my one-paragraph summary, I Am Not A Lawyer, etc, etc. See WestLaw, Lexis, or your local lawyer for real facts. -- "'Order of semen and fries' -- I've heard that a million times." Gennette Fox, owner of an artificial insemination supply house offering drive-thru service in Mehaska County, Iowa. From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 02:58:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA00900 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 02:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA00878 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 02:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.187.167.52] (ddt.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.52]) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id CAA21152; Wed, 15 May 1996 02:49:40 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Digital X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1996 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 23:34:40 -0700 To: , List Managers List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: [NOISE] Unsub Kit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grin-noise of the Day. Typos are (sic) as found. Reply-noise to me, not the list (please). Don't forget to rinse and repeat. dave ................................. cut here ................................. From: KJ Fisher > someonme get me off this fucking mailing list First, ask your Internet Provider to mail you an Unsubscribing Kit. Then follow these directions. The kit will most likely be the standard no-fault type. Depending on requirements, System A and/or System B can be used. When operating System A, depress lever and a plastic dalkron unsubscriber will be dispensed through the slot immediately underneath. When you have fastened the adhesive lip, attach connection marked by the large "X" outlet hose. Twist the silver- coloured ring one inch below the connection point until you feel it lock. The kit is now ready for use. The Cin-Eliminator is activated by the small switch on the lip. When securing, twist the ring back to its initial condition, so that the two orange lines meet. Disconnect. Place the dalkron unsubscriber in the vacuum receptacle to the rear. Activate by pressing the blue button. The controls for System B are located on the opposite side. The red release switch places the Cin-Eliminator into position; it can be adjusted manually up or down by pressing the blue manual release button. The opening is self- adjusting. To secure after use, press the green button, which simultaneously activates the evaporator and returns the Cin-Eliminator to its storage position. You may log off if the green exit light is on over the evaporator . If the red light is illuminated, one of the Cin-Eliminator requirements has not been properly implemented. Press the "List Guy" call button on the right of the evaporator . He will secure all facilities from his control panel. To use the Auto-Unsub, first undress and place all your clothes in the clothes rack. Put on the velcro slippers located in the cabinet immediately below. Enter the shower, taking the entire kit with you. On the control panel to your upper right upon entering you will see a "Shower seal" button. Press to activate. A green light will then be illuminated immediately below. On the intensity knob, select the desired setting. Now depress the Auto-Unsub activation lever. Bathe normally. The Auto-Unsub will automatically go off after three minutes unless you activate the "Manual off" override switch by flipping it up. When you are ready to leave, press the blue "Shower seal" release button. The door will open and you may leave. Please remove the velcro slippers and place them in their container. If you prefer the ultrasonic log-off mode, press the indicated blue button. When the twin panels open, pull forward by rings A & B. The knob to the left, just below the blue light, has three settings, low, medium or high. For normal use, the medium setting is suggested. After these settings have been made, you can activate the device by switching to the "ON" position the clearly marked red switch. If during the unsubscribing operation, you wish to change the settings, place the "manual off" override switch in the "OFF" position. You may now make the change and repeat the cycle. When the green exit light goes on, you may log off and have lunch. Please close the door behind you. From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 10:43:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA21017 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA21000; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from garyb@localhost) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03759; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:34:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Bickford" Message-Id: <199605151734.KAA03759@outlawnet.com> To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk He's right. I was wrong about Prodigy. They actually lost, but later won on appeal. jcanterbury@us.ibm.com writes: ... Basis of actual court decisions, both in the last 12 months. Two cases. In both, a person thought they were slandered and sued the ISP (one was Prodigy, the other CompuServe). CompuServe won the case on the grounds that a public (unmoderated) forum was used, rendering the poster solely liable. Prodigy lost, and the judge noted the reason was that Prodigy moderated the forum and therefore was responsible. From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 10:48:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA20746 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA20739; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from garyb@localhost) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03757; Wed, 15 May 1996 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Bickford" Message-Id: <199605151731.KAA03757@outlawnet.com> To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL free accounts X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Legal precedent has been established (somebody vs. prodigy, and others) As soon as you touch submissions, you're an editor. Prodigy got off the hook only by showing that their only involvement was an automated filter that looked for keywords. There are folks in Congress, I hear, who are attempting to assemble a bill that would make it possible for a provider to make a reasonable attempt to limit bad stuff without incurring liability for what gets through. Your suggestion on moderation criteria is almost certainly critically important. That is where you set down rules that you can enforce. Of course you then MUST enforce them evenly, or you're exposed again. This is a very murky area of law, without much precedent or legislation, and I'm not a lawyer. My opinion is worth what you paid for it. gb > Not to knock the original poster, but on what basis does a moderator take > legal responsibility for the contents of such a post? > > Also, would it not be possible to (a) publish your moderating criteria > so that it's very clear that you are not editting for content, and/or > (b) add a disclaimer to each approved post that the views reflect those > of the poster and not necessarily those of the moderator? I've seen > this in at least one newsgroup. > > Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting > Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net > ** "It is an honor to meet the best band in the world." ** > ** -- Dan Akroyd to the Ohio State University Marching Band ** From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 11:58:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00841 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 11:50:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA00791 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 11:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4QN56IP80002JYM@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:36:48 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 2042"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4QN2T5QAO000Z7C@AC.DAL.CA>; Wed, 15 May 1996 15:33:54 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA18167; Wed, 15 May 96 15:33:10 -0300 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 15:33:09 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Moderation and Liability To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9605151833.AA18167@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Gary E. Bickford" > >Legal precedent has been established (somebody vs. prodigy, and others) >As soon as you touch submissions, you're an editor. Prodigy got off the hook >only by showing that their only involvement was an automated filter that looked >for keywords. It would be nice to learn more about this. I think that most of the software we use for managing lists functions like Majordomo, in that questionable mail gets bounced to the list manager for approval even if the list is not moderated. The purpose of course is just to block administrative trivia like subscription requests, but it does mean that the list manager may see some of the legitimate postings before they go out. I assume that this would fit through the Prodigy loophole, but it would be nice to know more about this. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 17:02:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA06454 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 16:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA06437 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 16:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pma19.j51.com [165.254.214.19]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA04616; Wed, 15 May 1996 19:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960515235301.00986ce4@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 19:53:01 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, abuse@aol.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Kevin! Buddy! Missed ya! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got 2 of these on the 9th, Approved99 & Conroy675... but then nothing 'til today. Kevin, what do you do with your life when you're not trying to ruin everyone else's? >>From JBell30480@aol.com Wed May 15 18:50:16 1996 >Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by shamash.org (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA09695 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:50:14 -0400 (EDT) >From: JBell30480@aol.com >Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA21176; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:36:36 -0400 >Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:36:36 -0400 >Message-ID: <960515183635_114366217@emout14.mail.aol.com> >Subject: World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions > > >--------------------- >Forwarded message: >Subj: World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions >Date: 96-05-15 17:50:32 EDT >From: JBell30480 From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 17:16:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA08909 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 17:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA08874 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 17:05:34 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08789; Wed, 15 May 1996 20:03:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 20:03:45 -0400 Message-ID: <960515200345_536041865@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: JBell30480: Terminated Krazy Kevin Account Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PLEASE do not send in reports of the spam from this account (JBell30480@aol.com), it was terminated the moment I discovered it. Legal is actively involved in pursuing Lipsitz, but I don't know how much information I can mention at this time. If I can release more I will do so. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 "The spam WWW: http://ifrit.web.aol.com/atropos/ stops here." From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 18:13:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA19005 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA18955 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (jimo@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA01434 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Osborn Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.5) id SAA26512; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605160101.SAA26512@eskimo.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moderation and Liability Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) writes: >>Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) >>From: "Gary E. Bickford" >> >>Legal precedent has been established (somebody vs. prodigy, and >>others) As soon as you touch submissions, you're an editor. >>Prodigy got off the hook only by showing that their only >>involvement was an automated filter that looked for keywords. > >It would be nice to learn more about this. I think that most of the >software we use for managing lists functions like Majordomo, in that >questionable mail gets bounced to the list manager for approval even if >the list is not moderated. The purpose of course is just to block >administrative trivia like subscription requests, but it does mean that >the list manager may see some of the legitimate postings before they go >out. I assume that this would fit through the Prodigy loophole, but it >would be nice to know more about this. What about the status of archives? Suppose I maintain an "unmoderated" archive of my list, but pass the posts through some software filters on their way to the archives. These filters could, for instance, remove those annoying quote introductions "on blah/blah/blah you wrote" or they could reformat the text to look nice on 80-column screens, as I did with Gary's text above (did you notice?) or they could totally eliminate long quotations without enough lines of fresh reply, etc. etc. This is "editing" to conserve archive space, but not for content, and is not done by a human, but by a software automaton. Is the automaton liable? A less plausable argument against editorship concerns deleting articles from an archive that are not intended for the mailing list in the first place, like vacation auto-generated replies, or blatantly personal notes mistakenly sent to the whole list. Is it safe to manually remove these? jimo@eskimo.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 18:18:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA17344 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 17:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA10151 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 07:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.187.167.52] (ddt.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.52]) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id HAA15046; Wed, 15 May 1996 07:01:35 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Digital X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1996 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 04:04:08 -0700 To: List Managers List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: "forefront of online unsubscribe education" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just thought you'd enjoy this. And NO, I _haven't_ subscribed all of us on list-man. ;) dave ................................. cut here ................................. From: Majordomo@c2.org Subject: Welcome to clueless -- Welcome to the clueless mailing list! If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to "Majordomo@c2.org" with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe clueless coderpunks@toad.com Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: Welcome to clueless! You have subscribed to the forefront of online unsubscribe education. The clueless list is dedicated to fostering new and creative unsubscribe methods and promoting passionate and caustic discussion of same. We welcome all manner of discussion on the best ways to unsubscribe from mailing lists and particularly mailing lists to which you have not intentionally subscribed or have grown bored of. We recognize that unsubscribing is a complicated and involved process, and that often it is much more difficult than subscribing. You are not alone. HERE'S THE BOTTOM LINE: Mailing lists were founded by interest groups who need a CAPTIVE audience. Making it easy to unsubscribe is not in their interest. They want EVERY SINGLE person they can find to be CORRUPTED by their brainwashing ideas. You're dealing with the SCUM OF THE PLANET. The speed and power of the internet threaten to DESTROY your mind and CRIPPLE your fingers. You need WORLD CLASS unsubscribe powers to protect yourself. The founder of the list, fed up with the complexity and spelling challenges of unsubscribing, started a small distribution list of like minded individuals in 1981. Meeting in secret and developing their methods covertly, the clueless members grew in size until, in 1994, their ranks were too large to support with a mere pine mailing program. The clueless list was born. With the advent of the clueless list, attempts to obscure the unsubscribe process are now futile. The elders of the clueless list have perfected the most AMAZING AND EFFECTIVE unsubscribe methods known anywhere in the world. They are 100% ASSURED to unsubscribe you 100% of the time WITH AMAZING accuracy and speed. The BEST unsubscribing system in the WORLD for FAST learning and ULTRA-CONFIDENCE in the world of mailing lists. Have faith! You will learn how to unsubscribe quickly. You will learn how any person of any size can unsubscribe from any list with a single e-mail message. We promise. You will not forget how either. Trust us. FAQ: What kind of questions should I ask? Anything that has to do with mailing lists, or any question you may have about e-mail at all. Mostly anything goes. There are several people willing to engage you in discussions on the subject here. The first rule is that there are no stupid questions. What should I post? There is only one effective post limitation. Unsubscribe solutions or suggestions that are less than 2 lines long are unwelcome. Who is the list owner? The list owner prefers to remain anonymous. Should he or she be identified publically, the torrents of requests for the release his or her amazing secret and TOTALLY FOOLPROOF unsubscribe methods would be oppressive. Good luck, and welcome to the list. If you are clueless, or you know someone who is, you can get assistance by sending mail to clueless-request@c2.org saying "help". The "clueless" mailing list is for people who need to learn to read instructions on mailing list managers, and haven't figured out that they can unsubscribe from lists using the same automated list-manager software that they used to subscribe. It's also helpful for people who don't know standard Internet mailing list conventions that "foolist-request" provides information or services for "foolist", or who complain to a mailing list because the listserv/majordomo server wasn't a human and didn't respond to English-language requests. And it's a nice place to meet other clueless people! For further reference, you can find more information about "RTFM" on the Web from www.altavista.digital.com , www.yahoo.com , and many other fine search engines near you. From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 18:29:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA21762 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA21739 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (jimo@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA04981 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Osborn Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.5) id SAA27837; Wed, 15 May 1996 18:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605160119.SAA27837@eskimo.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are we running AOL? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk wbarr@leland.Stanford.EDU (William P. Barr) writes: >>There seems to be an easy way to eliminate spams which while I don't like >>them waste more time in discussion than they are worth. The method is to >>monitor all lists and only forward to the subscribers relevant >>communications. > >On a second look, this is not so easy especially if you want to assume >liability for what you post to the list. List moderators are legally >liable. Forget the liability; who's got TIME to moderate a list? Not me. If I had to moderate it because of a spammer, I'd want to charge him really really big bucks. jimo@eskimo.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 15 20:28:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA07687 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 May 1996 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.smcs.com (polaris.smcs.com [206.88.72.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA07677 for ; Wed, 15 May 1996 20:14:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Loughlin To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: KK Strikes again X-Mailer: ScoMail 3.0.Bd MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9605152304.aa09447@polaris.smcs.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Latest KK spam header: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From rigel.callemx.com!mars.itc.virginia.edu!virginia.edu!owner-hl7 Wed May 15 19:21:39 1996 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:37:30 -0400 From: JBell30480@aol.com Message-ID: <960515183727_114366700@emout15.mail.aol.com> Subject: World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions Date: 96-05-15 17:50:32 EDT From: JBell30480 To: www.posting.reflector@usenet.vax1.zer2.co.np ===>> World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions delivered to *any* country (1,500+ USA titles to choose from). -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for -------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Loughlin donl@smcs.com SSSS M M CCCC SSSS Super Micro Computer Systems S MM MM C S 6 Essex Drive SSSS M M M C SSSS Hauppauge NY 11788 S M M C S +1-516-582-3404 FAX +1-516-234-6943 SSSS M M CCCC SSSS -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 06:58:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA08057 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 06:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu9.psi.com (uu9.psi.com [38.145.107.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA08051 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 06:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkmc.UUCP by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12795 for ; Thu, 16 May 96 09:39:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 May 96 09:37:59 EDT From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Subject: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It Message-Id: <9605160937.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wrote PMDAtropos@aol.com: >PLEASE do not send in reports of the spam from this account We're with you; naturally we won't now that we know you've already taken action. But say? Would it help if we include the account ID in the Subject: line of spam reports, like "Spam from JBell30480" so you could either ignore those reports you've already handled, or (even better) pipe them to an autoresponder? >Legal is actively involved in pursuing Lipsitz, but I don't know how >much information I can mention at this time. I'm *very* curious about what you're doing. If you can't talk now, which seems likely, please let us know the outcome when you *can* talk. Thanks! From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 07:43:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA11823 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA11817 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605161433.HAA11817@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3560; Thu, 16 May 96 16:30:50 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1920; Thu, 16 May 1996 16:30:51 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:28:34 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 May 96 09:37:59 EDT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk AOL runs LISTSERV, and LISTSERV detects the KK spams every time. When that happens, it drops a note to David and the other AOL people involved in managing AOL's LISTSERV. So, David is always notified, and there's no need to notify him manually. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 07:58:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA12230 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA12224 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA27540 ; for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 10:42:43 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605161442.KAA27540@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9605160937.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at May 16, 96 09:37:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I once took a run at a general citations strategy to integrate usage across Mail, News, and URIs. The application of that scheme to this purpose would be to employ the following header in reports of alleged spam: References: mid:message_ID;from=addr_spec_of_originator This header can be inserted in any MUA which supports user-defined headers. Encoding per 822 must be followed in headers. Modulo encoding this should fit within the "phrase" syntax allowed in the _standard_ References: header. The names used are: message_ID : Message-ID of the spam you received addr_spec_of_originator : Account you have traced it to FWIW Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 08:16:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA12941 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA12934 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA28398 ; for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 10:57:08 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605161457.KAA28398@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199605161433.HAA11817@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at May 16, 96 04:28:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Eric Thomas AOL runs LISTSERV, and LISTSERV detects the KK spams every time. When that happens, it drops a note to David and the other AOL people involved in managing AOL's LISTSERV. So, David is always notified, and there's no need to notify him manually. Come again? When your list is hit, you have no way of knowing if one of the AOL LISTSERV lists has also been hit. The prior post sought the most cooperative way to report alleged spam abuse by AOL accounts, not against AOL lists. That's still a good question. Al From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 08:21:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA13285 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA13274 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605161503.IAA13274@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3769; Thu, 16 May 96 17:01:45 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 2333; Thu, 16 May 1996 17:01:31 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:58:28 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: Al Gilman cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 May 1996 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT) from Al Gilman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 May 1996 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT) Al Gilman said: >When your list is hit, you have no way of knowing if one of the AOL >LISTSERV lists has also been hit. It doesn't matter if the AOL lists are hit. There are enough LISTSERV lists worldwide (that KK certainly knows about) for LISTSERV to detect the spam one way or the other. It doesn't matter if AOL's LISTSERV detects the spam itself or receives an alert from another LISTSERV site, either way David is notified. The only way David would not be notified is if the spammer only hits non-LISTSERV lists. I suppose that's possible, but it would be a novelty. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 08:25:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA12949 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA12942 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (root@uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00301; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id IAA04734; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:06:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA21017; Thu, 16 May 1996 07:48:06 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199605161248.HAA21017@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Odd subscriptions from pima.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 07:48:06 -0500 (CDT) Cc: postmaster@pima.edu X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My spam detector just went off, by what appears to be forged subscriptions. Perhaps someone attempting to mailbomb some people at pima.edu? They're appended, including one full header. FYI. From operator@west.cscwc.pima.edu Thu May 16 00:17:56 1996 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with UUCP id AAA15671 for zer0-request@taronga.com; Thu, 16 May 1996 00:17:55 -0500 Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with ESMTP id AAA14189 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 00:18:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gray.cscwc.pima.edu (cscwc.pima.edu [144.90.64.8]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA03481 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 00:16:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gray.cscwc.pima.edu by gray.cscwc.pima.edu (8.6.10/gray-MX-1.4) id WAA01913; Wed, 15 May 1996 22:20:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 22:20:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199605160520.WAA01913@gray.cscwc.pima.edu> From: The.Super.AssHole.\ To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com Reply-To: operator@west.cscwc.pima.edu Status: OR SUBSCRIBE 0 Hotel The Super AssHole From cdooling@west.cscwc.pima.edu Thu May 16 01:32:59 1996 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:30:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199605160630.XAA12547@gray.cscwc.pima.edu> From: ClueLess.Dooling.\ To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com Reply-To: cdooling@west.cscwc.pima.edu SUBSCRIBE 0 Hotel ClueLess Dooling From bpagnotta@west.cscwc.pima.edu Thu May 16 01:33:00 1996 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:30:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199605160630.XAA12546@gray.cscwc.pima.edu> From: Billy.Boy.Pagnotta.\ To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com Reply-To: bpagnotta@west.cscwc.pima.edu SUBSCRIBE 0 Hotel Billy Boy Pagnotta From jskapura@west.cscwc.pima.edu Thu May 16 01:33:01 1996 Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:30:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199605160630.XAA12548@gray.cscwc.pima.edu> From: Stinky.Old.Fart.\ To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com Reply-To: jskapura@west.cscwc.pima.edu SUBSCRIBE 0 Hotel Stinky Old Fart An nslookup netted this info: bonkers% telnet west.cscwc.pima.edu smtp Trying 144.90.64.14... telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection refused bonkers% nslookup Default Server: bonkers.taronga.com Address: 0.0.0.0 > set type=MX > west.cscwc.pima.edu. Server: bonkers.taronga.com Address: 0.0.0.0 west.cscwc.pima.edu preference = 10, mail exchanger = west.cscwc.pima.edu west.cscwc.pima.edu internet address = 144.90.64.14 From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 08:58:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA16335 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grover.inherent.com ([207.49.1.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA16329 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparky.inherent.com (sparky.abanet.org [207.49.1.3]) by grover.inherent.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17576 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:47:17 -0700 Received: from sparky (localhost) by sparky.inherent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA27434; Thu, 16 May 1996 08:47:17 -0700 Message-Id: <9605161547.AA27434@sparky.inherent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Anti-Spamm advice for a new listmanager Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:47:17 -0700 From: Jeff Heinen Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, I as a realitivity new list manager and the listserver we run for one of our largers clients has just been found by ( your friend and mine ), Krazy Kevin. We are running Majordomo1.93, ( With a few, home grown Virtual Host modifications. ) And I was wondering if there were a few words of wisdom from you wise ones here. As a note, I would like to avoid setting restrict_post. We have list members that use remailers ( Ie. Their mail is sent to one address, but comes from another address. ) I am looking for a broader scheme that will allow for a possible change. Which is why Im posting here and not MD-users. :_) If worse comes to worse, I will just add a procmail wrapper around the list, but that will allow atleast one message throught each change. Does anyone have a better idea? Or at least a head start on what I may do? Thank You -Jeff -- ______________________________________________ Jeff Heinen jeffh@inherent.com System Administation & Network Operations From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 09:13:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA17516 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA17506 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA02794 ; for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:02:24 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605161602.MAA02794@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 12:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199605161502.LAA03367@mail1.access.digex.net> from "Eric Thomas" at May 16, 96 04:58:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Eric Thomas It doesn't matter if the AOL lists are hit. There are enough LISTSERV lists worldwide (that KK certainly knows about) for LISTSERV to detect the spam one way or the other. It doesn't matter if AOL's LISTSERV detects the spam itself or receives an alert from another LISTSERV site, either way David is notified. The only way David would not be notified is if the spammer only hits non-LISTSERV lists. I suppose that's possible, but it would be a novelty. Suppose I give some credence to this possibility. KK has not been noted for novelty, but there are always more inventive nuisances. How do I, as the proud operator of an Internet mailbox, _confirm_ that this stinking mailgram I have found in my mailbox matches a spam-detect event declared by the community of ever-watchful LISTSERV processes? Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 09:28:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA19567 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom3.netcom.com (netcom3.netcom.com [192.100.81.103]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA19543 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grafolog@localhost) by netcom3.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id QAA24343; Thu, 16 May 1996 16:23:02 GMT Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:23:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: Eric Thomas cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: <199605161433.HAA11817@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric: On Thu, 16 May 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > that happens, it drops a note to David and the other AOL people involved > in managing AOL's LISTSERV. So, David is always notified, and there's no > need to notify him manually. But does Kevin always send his spam to AOL's Listserv, when he sends his spam to the rest of the internet? xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * * OR * * * * http://members.tripod.com/~graphology/index.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 09:44:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA21200 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.iss.net (phoenix.iss.net [204.241.60.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA21194 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cfarris@localhost) by phoenix.iss.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA05554 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:40:33 -0400 From: Chris Farris Message-Id: <199605161640.MAA05554@phoenix.iss.net> Subject: Sendmail Question... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 12:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: cfarris@iss.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You are the best sendmail guru I know of, maybe you could answer a question I've been having... Is there an inherent danger or problem in having a large outgoing queue. We are running a mailing list of about 2000 users, and when I run a mailq the result is about 70K lines long. Often it seems that the messages are being held up at an address because of routing or nameserver problems. I have not noticed a performance problem, but I have also been trying to keep the queue length down. Unfortuantly I'm starting up several more lists, and this will soon be impossible to do. Thanks for you help Chris -- Chris Farris | Voice: (404)252-7270 Internet Security Systems, Inc. | Fax: (404)252-2427 Ste. 115, 5871 Glenridge Dr, | www: http://www.iss.net/ Atlanta, GA 30328 | Email: cfarris@iss.net 1st rule of computer security: What You Don't See Is What Gets You From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 10:06:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA22581 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA22565 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 09:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22303 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 11:51:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605161651.LAA22303@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Moderation and Liability In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 May 1996 18:01:35 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:51:45 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Let me mention, to stir the pot a bit :-), that anything submitted to a mailing list and passed by the moderator may be archived, and the archive may be accessible via ftp or http and thus accessible in the "Web", and thus may be searched and indexed by a robot, made available through one of the many Web search engines, mirrored elsewhere, linked to from random other places, or just copied by hand to other locations by admiring fans ...... So it's out of your control, as an author once you send something in, forget it, the possibility is that it may be spread around like mayonnaise to hitherto unimaginable places around the world, accessible for many years afterwards.... and you the moderator could be hauled in retroactively, I guess, years afterwards, by some ambitious politician/crusader etc., in a different continent, different planet someday? :-) Like this message, for example :-) It's May 16, 1996 here, what year/century is it where you're reading this? Am I long dead by now, is my current email address valid anymore? etc. etc. :-) (oh by the wayif you've solved time travel by now, can you mail me back some stock tips for tomorrow, my time, while you're at it? :-) Of course the debate about this sort of thing usually comes from discussions about archives of Usenet news articles but since more and more lists are archived (plus maybe gatewayed to news), you know, ..... Just a thought, have a nice life out there in the 24th century or wherever you're reading this :-) :-) (and if I'm applying for a job from you, remember this was typed in by someone else, I was away from my computer and forgot to lock the screen :-) Oh yeah, before I forget: "breast abortion referrals Salman Rushdie legalize LSD Semtex explosive NSA PGP religious prophets are all frauds", there now you have a reason to prosecute :-) Chris Koenigsberg today U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services, tomorrow who knows? ckk@uchicago.edu, ckk@pobox.com http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/index.html (also http://www.pobox.com/~ckk) From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 10:43:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA25894 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 10:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA25888 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 10:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA12670 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 16 May 1996 11:33:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199605161733.LAA12670@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: AOL free accounts To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 11:33:52 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There are folks in Congress, I hear, who are attempting to assemble a > bill that would make it possible for a provider to make a reasonable > attempt to limit bad stuff without incurring liability for what gets > through. Uhhh, I thought this was in the telecom bill. Which passed ages ago. Am I misremembering? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 11:13:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27528 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 11:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA27515 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605161805.LAA27515@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6201; Thu, 16 May 96 20:03:29 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 7225; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:03:29 +0200 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:01:30 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: Al Gilman cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 16 May 1996 12:02:23 -0400 (EDT) from Al Gilman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 16 May 1996 12:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Al Gilman said: >How do I, as the proud operator of an Internet mailbox, _confirm_ that >this stinking mailgram I have found in my mailbox matches a spam-detect >event declared by the community of ever-watchful LISTSERV processes? I suppose I could subscribe this list to LISTSERV spam events, but let's face it, anyone who's gone to the trouble of sending individual WHO commands to Majordomo sites found by trial and error will have exploited the more easily available list of LISTSERV lists. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 12:56:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03052 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [198.70.54.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA03043 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook In-Reply-To: <199605161503.IAA13274@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at May 16, 96 04:58:28 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9605161458.aa18667@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Eric Thomas: > > It doesn't matter if the AOL lists are hit. There are enough LISTSERV > lists worldwide (that KK certainly knows about) for LISTSERV to detect > the spam one way or the other. It doesn't matter if AOL's LISTSERV > detects the spam itself or receives an alert from another LISTSERV site, Are you saying that listserv sites notify each other if they get a spam? Interesting. Is the mechanism proprietary, or could other list software do the same thing? -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 12:58:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA04491 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sug.org (sug.org [192.108.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA04458 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 12:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sug.org (5.61+++/Spike-2.1) id AA28175; Thu, 16 May 96 14:56:41 -0400 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:55:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Rick Subject: SUN USER GROUP EAST COAST CONFERENCE & EXHIBITION, JUNE, BOSTON To: boston96@sug.org Cc: rick@sug.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SUN USER GROUP EAST COAST CONFERENCE and EXHIBITION Monday, June 24 & Tuesday, June 25, 1996 Marriott Copley Place Boston, Massachusetts ********************************************************************** ************* Register below for FREE admission to *************** ************* the biggest Sun Trade Show of the year. *************** ********************************************************************** Since this year's SunWorld has been cancelled, SUG East is now the ONLY major Sun conference of 1996. We're expecting over 2,500 attendees from around the country and more than 100 exhibitors, so this is your best opportunity of the year to discover what's new in the world of Sun and Java. SUG East is also the first East Coast Sun show in three years so expect to see a lot of new faces among the vendors and attendees. SUG East will feature an exhibition of the hottest new products for Sun and Java and a technical conference to keep you on top of the latest developments. The SUG East Technical Conference The SUG East Technical Conference will run both days of the show and will feature classes on a variety of topics. SUG was one of the producers of SunWorld, and our own series of technical conferences receive tremendous critical acclaim for their variety of interesting speakers. The SUG East conference include 25 talks by respected speakers over the both days of the show. Each day will feature two tracks of classes; Monday, June 24, will spotlight Java and System Administration, and Tuesday, June 25, will concentrate on Security and Internet Communication. The SUG East conference will address the important issues and difficulties of developing, managing, and maintaining a mixed-architecture environment through a variety of talks by some of the leading experts in the field. Featured speakers at the conference include Art Carty, General Manager and VP of SunExpress, North America; Robert Diamond, Senior Security Consultant for Sun Microsystems; Peter Galvin, chief scientist for Corporate Technologies, Security columnist for SunWorld On-line magazine, and author of "Operating System Concepts"; and J.A. Cross, Java consultant and contributing author to Que Publishing's "Special Edition: Using Java". Some of the currently scheduled sessions include: JAVA TRACK 1. Java and Application Development 2. Client-Server Development With Java 3. Is Java just C++ with a new hat? 4. Programming the Internet in Ada 95 5. Building for the Internet. SYSTEM ADMINISTRATION TRACK 1. Introducing Solstice Autoclient 2. TCP/IP Operational Troubleshooting in a UNIX Environment 3. Solaris Volume Management -- What It Does and Doesn't Do (and How) SECURITY TRACK 1. Firewalls and Network Security 2. Network Security Tools w/ CMIP Agents 3. UNIX Security Tools Workshop 4. Host Security Tools 5. Kernel Access Controls 6. Vendor Security Panel: featuring Sun, Cisco, Ascend INTERNET COMMUNICATION TRACK 1. Web Site Implementation 2. The Intranet and Thin Client Technologies: Testbed for the Future? 3. Building a Multi-Protocol Data Infrastructure 4. Electronic Commerce for Software over the Internet More sessions are being added regularly, contact conference@sug.org for the latest information. Registration for the SUG East Technical Conference is seperate from the FREE Exhibition registration and requires an additional fee. Earlybird Conference registration is $295 until June 10th. After June 10th, conference registration is $395. Members of the Sun User Group or Java-SIG reveive $50 off conference admission. Most conferences concentrate on the hype and cost considerably more, sign up for the SUG East Technical Conference today to receive the best education at the best prices. The SUG East Exhibition The SUG East Exhibition will feature over 100 exhibitors of application software, backup and storage devices, client/server products, connectivity products, email, network security, software development tools, terminals, training services and other products and services of interest to the Sun/SPARC and Java community. Registration for the exhibition is FREE until June 10. Use the form below to send in your registration today! The Sun User Group believes that trade shows should be fun, so in addition to all the exhibitors at SUG East you can also experience the the Colossal SUG Midway where you can... ...Discover the Forbidden Secrets of Modern Science at the Internet Academy of Mystery! ...See the Future Today at the Theater of the Amazing! ...Talk to Exotic Peoples from Around the Globe at Professor Phineas Q. Abercrombie's Communications Pavilion! ...Experience Heart-Stopping Thrills at the UNIX Job Fair! ...and many more special events and surprises! The SUG East Trade Show has it all... The Internet Academy of Mystery will present a series of FREE introductory half-hour lectures from SUG's highly-skilled instructors designed to help trade show attendees get a taste of some of the hottest new technology. Some of the FREE 'mini-classes' to be taught include: Java; The Worldwide Web; Internet Security; and Using Information Services. The Communication Pavillion provides attendees with a way to keep in touch with people back home, browse the Web, and try out interesting new communication software. SUG's Theater of the Amazing is a Product Demo Showcase where attendees can gain valuable in-depth information and see special demonstrations on the highlighted products of this year's show. The UNIX Job Fair is a terrific opportunity for those attendess looking for a new position, or anyone who wants to learn more about the UNIX job market. Staffed by professional recruiters, attendees can learn about hundreds of jobs currently available and improve their resume and job-hunting skills. The Sug East Exhibtion can Be Yours For The Low Price Of... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! ------------------------------------- SUG East Tradeshow Registration FREE registration for the SUG East Exhibition! June 24-25, 1996 Marriott Copley Place Boston, MA REGISTRATION FORM Mail, Email, or FAX registration to: SUG East Registration Sun User Group 1330 Beacon Street, Suite 344 Brookline, MA 02146 USA Fax: (617) 232-1347 Email: sugeast@sug.org WWW: http://www.sug.org/sug-east.html Your registration must be received before June 10, 1996 in order to receive your FREE pass to the SUG East Exhibition (there is a $25 registration fee for registrations processed on-site). Registration for the conference is separate and requires an additional fee of $295 ($395 after June 10th) with a $50 discount for SUG or Java-SIG members. All conference registrants receive free passes to the Exhibition. For further information, contact sugeast@sug.org, visit us on the web at http://www.sug.org or call Team SUG at (617) 232-0514. For information about advertising, sponsorships, or exhibiting at SUG East, contact Charles Sumner at sales@sug.org or the above phone number. Name: ____________________________________________ Title: ___________________________________________ Company: _________________________________________ Address: _________________________________________ _________________________________________ City: ____________________________________________ State: ___________________________________________ Zip/Postal Code: _________________________________ Country: _________________________________________ Email Address: ___________________________________ Phone: ___________________________________________ ___ Please register me for the SUG East Exhibition and Trade Show (FREE until June 10, otherwise fill out the section below) ___ Please register me for the SUG East Technical Conference (fill out the section below - includes Exhibition pass) ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ ITEM | Price | Qty. | Total | ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ ADVANCE SUG East | FREE (until June 10) | | | Exhibition registration | | | | ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ SUG East | $25 (after June 10) | | | Exhibition registration | | | | ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ ----------------------------------------------------------------+-------+ ADVANCE SUG East | $295 (until June 10) | | | Conference registration | | | | ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ SUG East | $395 (after June 10) | | | Conference registration | | | | ------------------------+-------------------------------+-------+-------+ Conference discount for | - $50.00 | | SUG or Java-SIG Members | membership number: ______________ | | ----------------------------------------------------------------+-------+ ----------------------------------------------------------------+-------+ TOTAL | | | | ----------------------------------------------------------------+-------+ All payments must be in US dollars; Checks must be drawn on a US bank. [ ] MasterCard [ ] Visa [ ] AMEX [ ] Check Cardholder's Name:____________________________________________________ Credit Card Number:___________________________________________________ Expiration Date:______________________________________________________ Signature of cardholder:______________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 13:34:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08039 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 13:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (gorplex.j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA07992 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 13:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pma19.j51.com [165.254.214.19]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA03053; Thu, 16 May 1996 16:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960516202522.00c7f8d4@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:25:22 -0400 To: Rick From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: SUN USER GROUP etc. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While we're on the subject, was sending a large message to a group of mailing list managers, not all of whom live anywhere near Boston, not all of whom run machines, not all of which are Suns, appropriate? Am I wrong, or did we just receive a spam? Note that list-managers was not even a cc: on this one... Ken From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 14:19:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA13333 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 14:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA13324 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) with SMTP id OAA00634; Thu, 16 May 1996 14:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <319B97A5.17A3@postmodern.com> Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 14:01:25 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick CC: boston96@sug.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: SUN USER GROUP EAST COAST CONFERENCE & EXHIBITION, JUNE, BOSTON References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to the header of this message, it was Bcc'd to the list- managers mailing list at GreatCircle.COM. This is NOT an appropriate message for that list, which is limited to discussions of Internet mailing list issues. Please do NOT send mail of this type again to the list-managers mailing list. Further abuse will be taken up with your management and/or Internet Service Provider. Thank you, -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 18:58:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29087 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 18:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com (electriciti.com [198.5.212.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA29074; Thu, 16 May 1996 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Molecule.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uKEaS-0008XxC; Thu, 16 May 96 18:44 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: molecul1@molecule1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 18:45:36 -0700 To: "Cathay Pacific Mktg. LAX" From: molecul1@molecule1.com (Molecule One Scientific Research Institute) Subject: Re: CyberTraveler Auction - Unsubscrive Cc: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Dear Molecule, > > >Best regards, >Cathay Pacific Airways Limited >Los Angeles Marketing Department > >P.S. remove yourself from the CyberTraveler program, (should you wish to). >Simply go to http://www.cathay-usa.com/remove.html. Thank you. > >>>Dear Cathay, > >>> Unsubscrive Molecule1@electriciti.com > >>> In peace & wish the purest of wishes. >>> sincerely, >>> M1. From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 19:01:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29253 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 18:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.smcs.com (polaris.smcs.com [206.88.72.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA29236 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Loughlin To: List-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: New KK Header X-Mailer: ScoMail 3.0.Bd MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9605162149.aa11575@polaris.smcs.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just received new Krazy Kevin Spam from an AOL address. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From rigel.callemx.com!mars.itc.virginia.edu!virginia.edu!owner-hl7 Thu May 16 20:13:27 1996 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 19:35:22 -0400 From: Shyamala87@aol.com Message-ID: <960516193520_492606897@emout18.mail.aol.com> Subject: FAQ on FREE 1 yr. USA Magazine Sub Offer (275+ choices) --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: FAQ on FREE 1 yr. USA Magazine Sub Offer (275+ choices) Date: 96-05-16 18:25:21 EDT From: Shyamala87 To: www.posting.reflector@usenet.vax1.zer2.co.np -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and *FAX* or *SMAIL* it back to the company. You will -------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald Loughlin donl@smcs.com SSSS M M CCCC SSSS Super Micro Computer Systems S MM MM C S 6 Essex Drive SSSS M M M C SSSS Hauppauge NY 11788 S M M C S +1-516-582-3404 FAX +1-516-234-6943 SSSS M M CCCC SSSS -------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 19:58:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA01143 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 19:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA01137 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 19:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4SH7N4TCG003M7D@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:07:28 -0300 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 2275"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01I4SH6626K0005JY5@AC.DAL.CA>; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:06:17 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA27130; Thu, 16 May 96 23:05:37 -0300 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 23:05:37 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Pointless spam announcements To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9605170205.AA27130@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We seem to be getting a number of these, and I don't really see the point. Sure, let us know about spams and let's talk about how to deal with them, but just announcing that somebody got one simply makes the situation worse. It seems that for every spam I see on a mailing list I see a dozen followups. These followups are more of a nuisance than the spams. Forwarded message: >Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 21:49:17 -0400 (EDT) >From: Donald Loughlin >Subject: New KK Header > >Just received new Krazy Kevin Spam from an AOL address.... -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 20:28:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA02596 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA02590 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA27767; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:22:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:22:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: "James C. Armstrong" cc: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moving lists (was "...*big-time* help!") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 May 1996, James C. Armstrong wrote: > => Try doing this with 6000 subscribers. :) Many of whom had problems > => subscribing to it in the first place. > => > => A better solution would be to program a => who knows perl> perl program that would grep the subscription list and > => create an output that would run each address through a simple subscribe > => program. > => > => This would not only take out the deadbeat addresses VERY quickly, but > => would generate a new welcome file for each subscriber. > > Not quite the same thing, but since I administer seven closely related > mailing lists, I've written a program that is run once a month > from cron to send each subscriber a unique message to test mail > addresses. The bounces are automatically unsubscribed, and it > also allows subscribers to check for duplicate addresses. A nice idea if you only have a few hundred subscribers (at max) and only one list (or maybe a few). I have 13 lists with over 6000 subscribers. Certainly the system load would be tremendous and some people would be getting 13 messages! If there were a way to do it without ever letting the user know it happened. I guess you could use VRFY and EXPN and only remove addresses that POSITIVELY tell you that the user is no longer on...but the system load would probably be even greater. Ahhh...I guess the only way is manually. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 20:43:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA03123 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toko.graphics.cornell.edu (TOKO.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.155]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA03116 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 20:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by toko.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13026; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:31:34 -0400 Message-Id: <9605170331.AA13026@toko.graphics.cornell.edu> To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Subject: Re: Pointless spam announcements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 May 96 23:05:37 -0300." <9605170205.AA27130@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Date: Thu, 16 May 96 23:31:33 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >We seem to be getting a number of these, and I don't really see the >point. Sure, let us know about spams and let's talk about how to deal >with them, but just announcing that somebody got one simply makes the >situation worse. For those of us with regexp checking filters in our list software it is quite useful to get an early warning so we can update our regexp lists to trap it when it arrives. Most of the KK spams are so repetitive that updates are seldom needed but now and then he actually slips one through with a creative subject line. Before the magazine blitz though there were quite an assortment of things and each one was completely different. Early warnings were *very* useful then. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu May 16 23:43:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA09815 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA09809 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 23:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from grafolog@localhost) by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id GAA06953; Fri, 17 May 1996 06:39:11 GMT Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 06:39:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: Eric Thomas cc: Al Gilman , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199605161805.LAA27515@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk eric: On Thu, 16 May 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > commands to Majordomo sites found by trial and error will have exploited > the more easily available list of LISTSERV lists. I would have thought that the _List of Publically Available Mailing Lists_ would be more likely to be used first. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com ********************************************************************** * * * Opinions expressed don't necessarily reflect my own views. * * * * There is no way that they can be construed to represent * * any organization's views. * * * ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ * ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/gr/graphology/home.html * * * * OR * * * * http://members.tripod.com/~graphology/index.html * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 05:13:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA00874 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 05:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA00866 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA14687; Fri, 17 May 1996 08:11:00 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:11:00 -0400 Message-ID: <960517081100_296215521@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Shyamala87: Another Krazy Kevin Spammer Terminated Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm still waiting for Legal to tell me what level of detail I can go into regarding their actions against Lipsitz. In the meanwhile, the account "Shyamala87" was terminated last night for another Lipsitzian spam. --David From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 07:28:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA06226 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 07:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sug.org (sug.org [192.108.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA06144 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 07:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sug.org (5.61+++/Spike-2.1) id AA05018; Fri, 17 May 96 10:18:53 -0400 Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 10:11:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Rick Reply-To: Rick Subject: Re: Sun User Group posting To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: "Michael C. Berch" , postmaster@sug.org In-Reply-To: <319B97A5.17A3@postmodern.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I would like to apologize to the members of the list-managers mailing list. It was inappropriate of me to have posted the information abour our upcoming conference, SUG East, to your group, and for that I am sorry. The description of your list says that it is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at a USENIX System Administration Conference. As SUG's and USENIX's conferences are quite similar, I thought that the members of your group would be interested in our conference. In retrospect, I realize that while many of the members here may be interested, especially as one of our tracks is on Internet Communcation, this was not an appropriate venue for such a posting. I have removed your group from our alias and will try to limit future postings here to topics of specific interest to list managers. Sincerely, Rick Gilbert Sun User Group From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 07:43:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA07762 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL ([129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07756 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 07:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 May 96 10:36:45 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: wow.com? Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9605171036.aa00141@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else experienced problems with list mail to wow.com (compuserve's new toy online service)? Specifically that their mailer does not bounce list mail back to the address in the SMTP envelope (nor to Errors-To, but that's nonstandard, so can't pick nits about it), but to the address in the From: line. My requests for resolution have fallen on deaf ears, so far. Am I alone? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 08:13:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA09953 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 08:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver1.tiac.net (maildeliver1.tiac.net [199.0.65.213]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA09946 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 08:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by maildeliver1.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id LAA29091 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:09:09 -0400 Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA24225 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:04:18 -0400 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199605171504.LAA24225@worldmachine.com> Subject: MTP VRFY & EXPN To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:04:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brock Rozen writes: > If there were a way to do it without ever letting the user know it > happened. I guess you could use VRFY and EXPN and only remove addresses > that POSITIVELY tell you that the user is no longer on...but the system > load would probably be even greater. Ahhh...I guess the only way is > manually. it's been my experience that many hosts either do not allow direct SMTP queries like these (i.e., AOL), or always confirm the existance of *any* address (i.e., my ISP). The only way to really do this is still to send out a message and wait for a confirmation from the user or a bounce from the mail handler. Ideally, however, in the latter case where you're waiting on a possible "reject" message from the subscriber's host, you would want to be able to deal with messages that couldn't be delivered for other reasons such as DNS lookup failed (DNS host down), user mailbox full (disk quota exceeded), etc, etc. Sending out a single ping message and then unsubscribing all users that have mail rejected is a bit harsh... OR, you can just use SmartList, which handles all this quite well =) -Eric Hansen List Owner, Level 42 Digest, Incognito Digest, Go West Digest -- Eric J. Hansen .............................. http://www.worldmachine.com/eric Developer, Worldmachine Technologies ............ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 08:44:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA11698 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 08:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA11651 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605171531.IAA11651@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4472; Fri, 17 May 96 17:29:03 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 4985; Fri, 17 May 1996 17:29:03 +0200 Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:19:29 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: wow.com? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 17 May 96 10:36:45 EDT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Many have reported the same problem and the short version of the story is that CompuServe doesn't give a damn. Someone came up with the interesting idea that, while you can't really cut compuserve.com off because there are so many innocent people using it (to take but one example, it's the only online provider available in Europe, at least until AOL opens shop), WOW is new and still somewhat in beta, so this need not apply. One could legitimately cut off all wow.com subscribers until CS gets its act together. This could cause people not to migrate to WOW and force CS to give a damn. Personally I'm not optimistic, but it could always be tried. The way this business works, CS will only listen to you if someone writes an article in a major paper explaining how WOW subscribers are cut off from thousands of mailing lists because CS couldn't follow a very simple and very important rule of the Internet mail standards, and as a result they are causing a lot of confusion and trouble for non-technical list subscribers who, as a matter of fact, are just the people WOW targets, blah blah blah. "Of all the major online providers and ISPs, CompuServe is alone in failing to respect this very reasonable requirement. America Online, Prodigy, Netcom - they all do it right. It doesn't bode well for CompuServe's new service that they cannot be bothered to follow a simple convention dating back to 1982, and didn't even provide an official answer to the thousands of complaints sent by angry subscribers", says Joe Doe, editor in chief of the XYZ electronic newsletter. Then a VP of something will call a manager of something and eventually a programmer will get to work. Until then... Eric From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 09:18:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA14747 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 09:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA14723 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 09:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA10077 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 May 1996 09:59:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199605171559.JAA10077@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: SmartList To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 09:59:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > OR, you can just use SmartList, which handles all this quite well =) I'm sorry, but I can't just let this pass: my lists at xmission were all moved from majordomo to smartlist a few months back and things have gone completely to shit since. My digests consistently go out garbaged-up (with messages missing, etc), subscribing and unsubscribing is twitchy and arcane and operates in complete opposition to the way the documentation claims it works, the bounce processer misinterprets bounce messages...it's been nothing but a complete nightmare compared to majordomo and I cannot *wait* to go back. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 10:00:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA20045 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 09:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA20036 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 09:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA21322 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 17:40:37 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: wow.com? Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:42:34 GMT Message-ID: References: <199605171531.IAA11651@miles.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199605171531.IAA11651@miles.greatcircle.com>, Eric Thomas wrote: >WOW is new and still somewhat in beta, so this need not apply. I don't think we have it in Europe; I've certainly not heard anything about it... >The way this business works, CS will only listen to you if someone writes >an article in a major paper explaining how WOW subscribers are cut off >from thousands of mailing lists because CS couldn't follow a very simple >and very important rule of the Internet mail standards, Interesting idea; if there's still a problem when it launches here, I might just be able to do something - I write for quite a few of the UK computer titles. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 10:29:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23943 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 10:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA23930 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 10:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keagan.cit.cornell.edu (KEAGAN.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.69.186]) by cornell.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA27105 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 13:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199605171720.NAA27105@cornell.edu> From: Sue Utter Honig To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 May 1996 16:28:34 +0200." <199605161433.HAA11817@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:29:02 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What parts of KK's advertisements are used to kick off the filter so that the spams are caught every time? Thanks. Sue Honig suh1@cornell.edu > AOL runs LISTSERV, and LISTSERV detects the KK spams every time. When > that happens, it drops a note to David and the other AOL people involved > in managing AOL's LISTSERV. So, David is always notified, and there's no > need to notify him manually. > > Eric > From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 10:43:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA25419 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 10:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garcon.unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA25405 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 10:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chip@localhost) by garcon.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA28624 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 May 1996 12:51:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199605171751.MAA28624@garcon.unicom.com> Subject: whose "public" lists are inreference archiving? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:51:31 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a9] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk InReference claims that they will be archiving "various public e-mail lists, accessible both thru this web interface, as well as via e-mail". Does anybody know what this means? Has anybody been contacted regarding having their lists archived? Or has somebody entered stealth subscriptions to a bunch of lists for the purposes of archiving? Disclaimer: I work for a major net archive site ... but I'm wearing my list manager hat here. -- Chip Rosenthal * troff programmer * From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 11:16:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28737 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com (powergrid.electriciti.com [198.5.212.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA28731; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Molecule.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uKTvB-0008b4C; Fri, 17 May 96 11:06 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: molecul1@molecule1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:08:00 -0700 To: Cathay Pacific Marketing Los Angeles From: molecul1@molecule1.com (Molecule One Scientific Research Institute) Subject: Re: CyberTraveler Auction - Unsubscrive MoleKule's. Cc: firewalls@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is an automated reply to your e-mail request. > >The only way to remove yourself from our CyberTraveler >program is to go to > >http://www.cathay-usa.com/remove.html (make sure you spell this exactly like >this) > > >and follow the easy instructions. > > >Thank you for your participation. > > > >At 06:45 PM 5/16/96 -0700, you wrote: >>>Dear Molecule, >>> >>> >>>Best regards, >>>Cathay Pacific Airways Limited >>>Los Angeles Marketing Department >>> >>>P.S. remove yourself from the CyberTraveler program, (should you wish to). >>>Simply go to http://www.cathay-usa.com/remove.html. Thank you. >>> >>>>>Dear Cathay, >>> >>>>> Unsubscrive Molecule1@electriciti.com >>> >>>>> In peace & wish the purest of wishes. >> >>>>> sincerely, >>>>> M1. >> >> >>>>> Peace Cathay, >>>>> Please note molecul1@electriciti.com is now molecul1@molecule1.com. >>>>> It is also 1996 & the people love to dance the world over. Peace Cathay, M1. From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 11:22:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28847 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA28773 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26137 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 13:05:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199605171805.NAA26137@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: the nuisance followups Re: Pointless spam announcements In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 May 1996 23:05:37 -0300." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:05:40 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Silvert writes: >It seems that for every spam I see on a mailing list I see a dozen >followups. These followups are more of a nuisance than the spams. Yes, this is precisely the point. Most of us ARE offended by receiving the initial spam message itself, and we are fighting the spammers themsevles. BUT most importantly here on list-managers, We as list managers are trying to contain and limit a phenomenon on our mailing lists, where a spam triggers a mess of followup, argument, flaming crap afterwards, even on this list-managers list for example! (same deal on Usenet newsgroups too) So, to list-managers: remember again that the "cost" of letting a single message go through may fan out into the annoying discussions which inevitably follow as a result. And, it's important to help spread the netiquette, of AVOIDING the annoying followups. Remember this in your list FAQ if you have one, and remember to write, individually in private email, directly to people who do contribute to the nuisance followups, pointing out that they are contributing to a problem which is worse, in the end, than the original spam itself which started the whole thing snowballing. Spread the word about how to analyze a message to determine its real origin, about how to complain politely to postmasters and ISP's associated with the origin (politely is important, especially if its origin is deliberately forged to mailbomb an innocent victim), and how NOT to contribute to the nuisance followups on the same forum where the message hit originally. I've seen a few good starts at writeups on this sort of thing on various Web pages, is there a consensus on the best one to point people at now? Chris Koenigsberg From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 11:28:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28379 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA28347 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 17 May 1996 17:42:55 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Fri, 17 May 1996 17:41:49 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0uKSag-0007V6C; Fri, 17 May 96 17:41 WET DST X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: wow.com? Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <9605171036.aa00141@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> In-reply-to: <9605171036.aa00141@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:41:21 +0100 Message-ID: <18287.832351281@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9605171036.aa00141@fsm-1.pica.army.mil>, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes: > Has anyone else experienced problems with list mail to wow.com > (compuserve's new toy online service)? Specifically that their mailer does > not bounce list mail back to the address in the SMTP envelope (nor to > Errors-To, but that's nonstandard, so can't pick nits about it), but to the > address in the From: line. I've not run into wow.com, however compuserve.com itself has exactly the same problem. In fact it may be worse than you think as they will send messages to the Reply-To: field if it is present, so if they're using the same broken mailer..... :-( Attached below is a slightly edited summary of how a list of mine that I run outside of work melted down because of their inability to impliment the RFCs properly. > My requests for resolution have fallen on deaf ears, so far. Am I alone? Nope, I've not been able to get anything at all out of Compuserve. Nobody appears to read Postmaster's mail and the support account that I'd heard of now appears to have been deleted (messages to it have started to bounce). Thus I've been forced to ban all Compuserve users from this list, which I think is a real shame. :-( ---------------------------8< snip snip 8<------------------------------- Well, here's an attempt at a summary of what happened: A Compu$erve users mailbox filled up, causing mail to the account to start bouncing on Friday morning. Because of their hideously broken mail system the bounces were directed back to the mailing list, rather than to the required address. These were resent back to the CIS address in question which of course bounced them back again. At this point I unsubscribed the address, complained to CIS postmaster (an apparently futile procedure according to fellow postmasters I have talked to) and thought the matter solved. Due to a scheduled power down in this building I spent Friday afternoon shutting this network down, thus being out of contact. Unbeknown to myself the other CIS addresses on the list also ran out of quota at some point on Friday, but I had not noticed their bounces yet. These continued to bounce messages back to the list, leading to an explosion of messages as they responded to each others bounce messages as well as their own. On Saturday lunchtime at 12:15 I got a desperate phone call from a friend in Aberystwyth telling me of the problem, and asking me to fix it PDQ. Thanks to my extensive network of adopted sisters (;-) I get the mono admins work number and he removes all CIS members from the list at 12:40. (wonderful person that he is) 13:10 - I just manage to catch the train I needed down to St Albans for a friends birthday. On my return I find the DRAs mail system in chaos due to the horrendous numbers of bounces it had generated, both directly by CIS and indirectly by others mailboxes refusing to accept messages from anyone either deliberately or due to running out of space. Since then I've received well over 3,000 bounce messages personally and had over 2,500 deleted from one of our relay machines where stuff was queueing over the weekend. I guess in total we're talking easily over 50Mb of bounced mail altogether. I guess I win the "I got more mail than you" competition. :-) Chris (still rather annoyed list admin - STILL NO ANSWER FROM COMPUSERVE). ---------------------------8< snip snip 8<------------------------------- -- Christopher Samuel, Open Software Systems Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 11:29:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00887 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA00852 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 11:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0uKUHJ-0007afC; Fri, 17 May 96 11:29 PDT Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: whose "public" lists are inreference archiving? To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199605171751.MAA28624@garcon.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at May 17, 96 12:51:31 pm Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >InReference claims that they will be >archiving "various public e-mail lists, accessible both thru this >web interface, as well as via e-mail". Does anybody know what this >means? Has anybody been contacted regarding having their lists >archived? Or has somebody entered stealth subscriptions to a bunch >of lists for the purposes of archiving? > Nobody's contacted me about the larger lists that I maintain (filepro-list@seaslug.org and flexfax@sgi.com). I just assume that any recipient may well be archiving the lists as I archive anything that we distribute (which includes various newsgroups). Our main archives are on ftp://ftp.celestial.com/pub/mailing-lists for those who might be interested in this. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 12:47:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09142 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 12:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA09127 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uuneo.neosoft.com (root@uuneo.neosoft.com [206.109.1.3]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10689 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 14:37:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from taronga@localhost) by uuneo.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.4) with UUCP id OAA04398 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 17 May 1996 14:05:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19099 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 17 May 1996 13:47:49 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199605171847.NAA19099@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: wow.com? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:47:48 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christopher Samuel : > Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer writes: > > > Has anyone else experienced problems with list mail to wow.com > > (compuserve's new toy online service)? > > I've not run into wow.com, Hm. A couple days ago, I received what I now believe may have been a subscription to a gateway on wow.com. Now that I know what wow.com is, I've removed it. It's always bugged me that people set up gateways without checking with me first (or link mailto:'s to my majordomo on their web pages), and it makes me nervous that an entity like CompuServe may have done it. At any rate, you might want to keep an eye out for subscriptions to your list from names in this format --> yourlistname@wow.com. (Or I might be acting overly-paranoid as usual, so in that case, just ignore me....) From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 15:30:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA24079 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA24071 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 15:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605172219.PAA24071@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6985; Sat, 18 May 96 00:17:15 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 0371; Sat, 18 May 1996 00:17:16 +0200 Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 00:14:04 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, Sue Utter Honig In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 17 May 1996 13:29:02 -0400 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 17 May 1996 13:29:02 -0400 Sue Utter Honig said: >What parts of KK's advertisements are used to kick off the filter so >that the spams are caught every time? LISTSERV's spam detector is not based on looking for key phrases in the message but on detecting messages posted to a lot of lists in a short time frame. So, it works with KK and it also worked with Olga, with the Swiss teenage sex hotline, with the thigh cream, with the white supremacy piranha story, with the MAKE MONEY FAST scams, etc. Keyword based filters would work fine with repeating spams like KK's, but not with unexpected ones like the piranha story. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 16:28:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA26380 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 16:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA26374 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 16:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.199.113.27] (sc27.znet.com [205.199.113.27]) by imc.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA26777; Fri, 17 May 1996 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605171751.MAA28624@garcon.unicom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:18:07 -0700 To: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: whose "public" lists are inreference archiving? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:51 AM -0700 5/17/96, Chip Rosenthal wrote: >InReference claims that they will be >archiving "various public e-mail lists, accessible both thru this >web interface, as well as via e-mail". Does anybody know what this >means? Has anybody been contacted regarding having their lists >archived? Or has somebody entered stealth subscriptions to a bunch >of lists for the purposes of archiving? This is the same as Pangaea, that has been discussed on this list earlier. Eric Allman is the Chief Technical Officer there (or, at least, was when the business card I got from him was printed). It is a NASA-spinoff, according to the Web site. From list-managers-owner Fri May 17 18:28:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA01383 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 May 1996 18:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e55.webcom.com (e55.webcom.com [206.2.192.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA01375 for ; Fri, 17 May 1996 18:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605180124.SAA01375@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by e55.webcom.com (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA078782595; Fri, 17 May 1996 18:23:15 -0700 From: Thomas Leavitt Subject: Terrorist Alert -> WAS Re: Virus Alert (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:23:15 PDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A funny. Names changed to protect the innocent. :) Y'all are going to get spammed by similar nonsense soon, I expect. Thomas > > Sorry [xxx], not possible. > > *******SPECIAL NOTICE************* > Beware of people like [xxx]. A new group of web terrorists have been unleashed > onto the Web, Email, Usenet groups, Chat rooms, etc. Their subject line will > simply be something to try and scare the living crap out of you. DO NOT open > messages about things like this because their worthless, untrue messages will > jam up your brain, not email, and possibly wipe out any chance that you can > live a peaceful life on the Internet. If somehow or for some reason you DO > respond, the original terrorists will now have access to your curiosity > and attention, from which they will NEVER let go. In the event that you DO > respond, take 2 asprin, go to sleep, and try not to contact anyone about > the terrible thing you did. Again, there is NO way a virus can become > active through an email client program alone by simply opening a message or > responding to someone else. > P.S. If anyone ever sends you a senseless message like this, only with an > attachment, please remail the attachment and a HUGE email message to the > person....multiple times.....hundreds of times............ ;) > > Sincerely yours, > > G. Walley > *********************************** > Coalition Against Email Terrorism > 123 Somewhere Dr. > SomewhereElse, SW 12345-6789 > > At 03:59 PM 5/17/96 -0700, you wrote: > >FYI > > > > *******SPECIAL NOTICE************* > > > >BEWARE of the DEFRAG virus. A new virus has been unleashed through email. > >Look out for email from DEFRAG@aol.com. The subject line will read either > >"?" or "groan" or variations. DO NOT open the email or respond. Delete it > >as soon as possible. The virus will jam up your email and possibly wipe > >out your files. If you respond the sender of the email will be able to > >access all your passwords and system information. In the event that you > >do open the message and your email files become corrupted, close all your > >applications and contact your system administrator. > >You can avoid these viruses by being careful when you subscribe to mail > >lists, use caution when downloading files and avoid giving out your email > >address to people you do not know. > > > > ********************** > > > > > > > > > >[xxx] -- Web Communications (sm) Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101 Vice President Web Communications Home Page From list-managers-owner Sat May 18 07:03:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA20749 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 May 1996 06:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from odcsper (odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil [144.170.207.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA20743 for ; Sat, 18 May 1996 06:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil id <2901>; Sat, 18 May 1996 15:52:12 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 15:52:01 -0000 From: "Bob Stringfield, ODCSPER" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ListServ Administrator Job Descriptions Message-Id: <96May18.155212gmt.2901@odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry for the multiple posting but I am still searching around for listserv administrator job descriptions. Anyone have this as their primary or secondary job? Thanks... --bob ************************************************************************* Robert (Bob) L. Stringfield HQ USAREUR & 7A (ODCSPER) CMR 420 Box 1687 APO AE 09063 ETS: 370-4141/4242 COML: 06221-574141/574242 (Germany) FAX: 06221-390838 IRC Nick - DeathStar (:ds) root@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil or bstring@hq.hqusareur.army.mil or bstring@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil WWW - http://144.170.207.252 IMO - ODCSPER USAREUR ListOwner - EMPLOY Truth: IGNORANCE hates Knowledge ************************************************************************ From list-managers-owner Sat May 18 15:51:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16640 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 May 1996 15:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA16629 for ; Sat, 18 May 1996 15:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10239 for ; Sat, 18 May 1996 18:44:56 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 18:44:53 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mail from AOL will need manual approval (fwd) Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This came through on the Majordomo-Users list... Looks like someone actually has started denying service for AOL.COM. KK has now begun to deny service from this site for *all* of your subscribers, AOL. Maybe this will step up the activity to shut him down and prevent such activity in the future? Getting close to denying AOL.COM, Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 11:32:04 +0200 From: Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no To: mhsnews@uninett.no Cc: postmaster@aol.com, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@uninett.no Subject: Mail from AOL will need manual approval All of you will be tired of the magazine posts that have been sent recently. I have complained several times to postmaster@aol.com, where the stuff is probably being relayed, but have gotten no response. Because of this, I have now hacked our Majordomo to regard ALL postings that come via aol.com as "administrative requests", which will have to have manual approval before being sent to the list. I am sorry for the inconveniece this will cause our AOL readers (if we have any; there are none on the E-mail side of the gateway). Harald T. Alvestrand MHSNEWS maintainer PS: For majordomoists: The hack was diff -c resend~ resend *** resend~ Thu May 9 13:18:35 1996 - --- resend Sat May 18 11:26:43 1996 *************** *** 213,219 **** - --- 213,221 ---- /^subject:\s*Receipt Confirmation\b/ || /^subject:\s*Failed mail\b/ || /^subject:\s.*\bchange\b.*\baddress\b/ || + /^received: from .*mail.aol.com\b/ || /^subject:\s*request\b.*\baddition\b/i)) { + &bounce("Admin request"); } Comments on more elegant hacks are welcome! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMZ5S55o1JaC71RLxAQGj7AP9HoXprOeNBniHkjZEwYXDBV/dcLJJDsIN sR554G7EEMPk4oL2heUqPTWwOm7ipUxNmGMA7HoAPOw1tK8VOyL8TOTbWT0VDM9a wRm/SdEEbnyDa5q4NEP5cFfhorohwSv/9i1pqp3o4qwiTzC9g6B6xZe46IRa64cL 9FfSnA0iQdI= =1hrz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Sat May 18 16:51:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22389 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 May 1996 16:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from powergrid.electriciti.com (electriciti.com [198.5.212.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA22376 for ; Sat, 18 May 1996 16:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Molecule.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uKvk2-0008dLC; Sat, 18 May 96 16:48 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: molecul1@molecule1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:50:20 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.Com From: (by way of molecul1@molecule1.com (Molecule One Scientific Research Institute)) Subject: mail failed, returning to sender Cc: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk |------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| ... transport smtp: 550 ... User unknown |------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| Received: from Molecule.electriciti.com by powergrid.electriciti.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0uKvFz-0008dFC; Sat, 18 May 96 16:17 PDT Message-Id: X-Sender: molecul1@molecule1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:19:16 -0700 To: anchod@cc.utas.edu.au From: molecul1@molecule1.com (Molecule One Scientific Research Institute) Subject: test this is a test from molecul1@molecule1.com From list-managers-owner Sat May 18 22:36:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA07666 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 May 1996 22:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nylink.org (llwnet.nylink.org [204.168.124.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA07659 for ; Sat, 18 May 1996 22:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nylink.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.10) Received: from magpie.magpie.com by magpie with smtp Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 01:29:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Manes Reply-To: Steve Manes Subject: Spam filtering To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Like a lot of mailing list administrators, my lists have all been hit by the notorious lowlife email spammer, Kevin Lipsitz. After the second spam attempt to NYC-Motorcycles, I wrote this little stand-alone Perl utility, 'squelch', which searches incoming list messages for known text strings and blocks them. After reading about Majordomo list managers who have been hit so hard by this clot that they've suspended publication, I decided to release it to anyone who wants it. There's nothing much to it. 'Squelch' replaces the 'resend' command in your SMAIL or SENDMAIL alias. The arguments to 'squelch' is your old 'resend' command, plus its usual arguments. Here's an example using my own NYC-Motorcycles mailing list: OLD: nyc-moto: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper \ resend -l nyc-moto -h magpie.com nyc-moto-outgoing" NEW: nyc-moto: "|/usr/local/bin/squelch /usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper \ resend -l nyc-moto -h magpie.com nyc-moto-outgoing" If the message contains one of the strings from our squelch table, the program exits, mailing a copy of the message to the COPYTO address specified at the top. Otherwise, it opens a pipe to the 'resend' command and redirects the message to Majordomo for publication. Of course, 'squelch' only works on known text patterns. It's useless against new spam attempts. Fortunately, Lipsitz is a drone and rarely changes the text in his spams which makes 'squelch' work pretty well. The table of search strings is in the array @squelch, which can be extended to include telltale strings from other spams, such as 1-900 tele-sex ads. 'Squelch' sucks the whole message into memory so search times are negligible. This was a quick 'n nasty piece of coding to deal with an immediate problem so I've no doubt it can be improved on, possibly by the use of grep(). Feel free to modify it as you please. Two caveats. By releasing this program I'm also giving Lipsitz the opportunity of learning the key phrases I'm scanning for. I've already changed my list based upon his latest spams and I would advise you to personalize your own. Caveat #2: I run all my lists as digest-only so I have time to manually kill spams in the queue before they're propogated. -Steve- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #!/usr/bin/perl # # Name : squelch # Author : Steve Manes, Manes Associates # manes@magpie.com # Args : squelch # Notes : used to filter an email message containing a given # string from being submitted to Majordomo # # This program may be freely distributed without charge. # It is released without warranty of any kind. Use at your # own risk. # $MAILER = "/usr/sbin/smail"; ## your mailer $COPYTO = "manes\@magpie.com"; ## notify this address ## text strings present in messages we want to dump @squelch = ( "Magazine Club Inquiry", "FAXING IN THEIR REPLY", "their fax line is open", "1-900-SEX-CHAT" ); @msg = ; ## see if one of the 'squelch' strings exists in this message ## (this is a case-insensitive search) foreach $line (@msg) { foreach $zap (@squelch) { if ($line =~ /$zap/i) { &reject(@msg); } } } ## message is okay... launch 'resend' with provided args $cmd = join(" ", @ARGV); open(RESEND, "|$cmd") || exit -1; ## redirect message to 'resend' print RESEND join("", @msg); close RESEND; exit 0; ## send message to COPYTO and exit sub reject { local(@msg) = @_; ## send message copy to COPYTO address open(MAIL, "|$MAILER $COPYTO") || exit -1; print MAIL <; Sun, 19 May 1996 07:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA23312 ; for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 10:47:06 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605191447.KAA23312@access2.digex.net> Subject: archive of spam-defense posts To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 10:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I keep too much mail. Some of the too much mail is a spam-NOT folder containing past posts to list-managers which describe approaches to ridding mailing lists of spam. Filters, counter-attacks, you name it. This unedited folder is available to you and the public via http://www.access.digex.net/~asgilman/spam/ which is a directory with the spam -- examples of spam spam-NOT -- examples of spam countermeasures folders in it. Mail me if you only have ftp and want access. I set this up for BuGless when he started his SpamFilter project. But now I realize it could be worth mentioning to others. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sun May 19 11:21:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA03024 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 11:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA03017 for ; Sun, 19 May 1996 11:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.199.113.32] (sc21.znet.com [205.199.113.21]) by imc.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07185; Sun, 19 May 1996 11:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 11:18:31 -0700 To: "Jason A. Dour" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Mail from AOL will need manual approval (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This came through on the Majordomo-Users list... Looks like someone >actually has started denying service for AOL.COM. I think you misread the message. The listowner is not denying service, he's delaying it until he reads it to be sure it is not a spam. On the other hand, if you know Harald, you know that this might not be instant. :-) >KK has now begun to deny service from this site for *all* of your >subscribers, AOL. No, Harald and others like him have begun to filter service for their mailing lists and delay postings to their mailing lists. This is definitely a negative, but not much of one. >Getting close to denying AOL.COM, If you do this, you are going much further than the person whom you quote in the included message. For the other people on listmanagers that don't know Harald Alvestrand, he's one of the two IETF area directors for applications (meaning, in part, mail protocols). He likes hacks, and he knows Internet mail transport better than almost anyone. He also is not a US resident; you can imagine how well he deals with US-centric views of the Internet and their effects on the global internet. From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 00:10:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA09303 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id XAA09295 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:36:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605200636.XAA09295@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA21738 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 01:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.230] (liv6.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.230]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA07707 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 01:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 01:42:22 -0700 To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: A meta-unsubscribe message? Well, I just took four tries to unsubscribe from a list I was on. I tried several different methods. Turns out, one of my attempts managed to make it through to the postmaster, and they unsubscribed me. They are running a list mgr. program I hadn't heard of before (I dumped the mail, and I don't remember what it was.) This made me think - has anyone come up with a single message that would work for most (all?) known list mgrs.? If so, then we could all put it in our "welcome" message and everyone would live happily ever after. From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 00:13:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA09448 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id XAA09431 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 19 May 1996 23:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:37:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605200637.XAA09431@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA09382 for ; Thu, 16 May 1996 13:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 305); 16 May 1996 20:31:56 -0000 To: Jonathon Blake cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It In-reply-to: A message of "Thu, 16 May 1996 16:23:02 -0000." Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 16:31:54 -0400 Message-ID: <9205.832278714@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> From: Paul Graham as already noted it doesn't matter where they are sent among the listserv peers. based upon what i've seen it appears that each listserv host is identified and then mail is sent alphabetically to the lists at that node. eric said ``I suppose I could subscribe this list to LISTSERV spam events,'' i was going to suggest that but i decided that l-soft had concluded it wasn't prudent to do so. i would whole-heartedly support that (or sending the notices to some other list). i get a notification from listserv roughly immediately, then i get spammed on the ntp list and then i see a few notices on this list (often hours later). i think eric's point is that if you get spammed on a non-listserv list the listserv lists will also be spammed because the list-of-lists is maintained automatically and is trivially acquired, so why bother telling anyone. i see the point being that one could take the listserv notice and use it to modify the behaviour of your (e.g. smartlist, majordomo, tulp) mailing list if had not yet been spammed. -------- In reply to grafolog@netcom.com: But does Kevin always send his spam to AOL's Listserv, when he sends his spam to the rest of the internet? --------------------- -- paul From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 10:23:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA27730 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 10:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nylink.org (llwnet.nylink.org [204.168.124.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA27692 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 10:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nylink.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.10) Received: from magpie.magpie.com by magpie with smtp Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:01:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Steve Manes Reply-To: Steve Manes Subject: Weird bounces from Compuserve To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For the past six weeks or so, I've been getting bounced digests from Compuserve with the following prefix: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Receiver not found: INTERNET:nyc-moto-digest@compuserve.com Your message could not be delivered as addressed. --- Message From Postmaster --- Subject: Addressing CompuServe Mail users Please contact postmaster@compuserve.com if you need additional formatting information for other types of addresses. Cordially, The Electronic Postmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Notice that there is no reference address so I could do something about it on my end. Big help! After two-dozen requests for assistance from postmaster@compuserve.com... all of them unanswered... I called CIS tech support and, after filling her CIS mailbox with some of those bounces, got the following response: ------- Begin Forwarded Message ------- Mr. Manes, I have the response from the Product Support Sandy ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- From: Jack Kessler, [70003,6227] TO: sandy, [111111,1404] DATE: 5/20/96 9:38 AM RE: Steve Manes Here's the reply I got back from Product Support: This is a bug/misfeature in NT Mail that is exercised by the way the guy's MTA (Smail) is generating rfc822 headers and how NT mail handles non-responsible recipients. We are going to follow up with the NT mail team to iron this out. So, essentially, we've discovered the problem (which apparently hasn't been noticed before as it only happens with the way the software the member is using formats the Internet headers) and are working on a solution. Jack ------- End Forwarded Message ------- If you're experiencing the same problems I am... and all my mailing lists are affected by it... the above address is the one to ship your gripes to: 70003.6227@compuserve.com --------------------------------------------------=o&>o-------------------- Steve Manes N'Yawk, N'Yawk http://www.nylink.org/~manes/ manes@magpie.com From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 15:38:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA01306 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 15:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyber.Widener.EDU (cyber.Widener.EDU [147.31.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA01249 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 15:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Rose.A.Juliano@cyber.Widener.EDU Received: from US*ATTMAIL*WIDE by widener-mg.Widener.EDU via QTFS with X.400; X400-Received: by /PRMD=wide/ADMD=attmail/C=us/ ; Relayed ; Mon, 20 May 1996 X400-Received: by mta MTABWIDENER ; Relayed ; Mon, 20 May 1996 18:29:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:29:33 -0400 Message-Id: <960520182845198-MTABWIDENER*Rose.A.Juliano@cyber.Widener.EDU> P1-Message-ID: us*attmail*wide; 960520182845198-MTABWIDENER UA-Content-ID: 960520182845198- Subject: Attention Programmers Importance: high Autoforwarded: FALSE To: List-managers@GreatCircle.COM (Receipt Notification Requested) (Reply Requested) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Message Id: 960520180130207-MTABWIDENER Rose A Juliano O=Widener; P=WIDE; A=ATTMAIL; C=US Flags: HIGH IMPORTANCE To: LISTSERV@NAC.NETNORTH.CA; OU1=widener-mg; P=WIDE; A=ATTMAIL; C=US From: Rose A Juliano O=Widener; P=WIDE; A=ATTMAIL; C=US Subject: Attention Programmers ------------ Letter Body Part 1 - Text ------------ CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER Please indicate the COST for a PROGRAM to send a separtate message to a specific recipient of a mailing list as explianed below. Is ther any commercial SOFTWARE (stock) that will provide this function? We also want to be able to scan the address into the ADDRESS BOOK of the PROGRAM. We appreciate your help. Sincerely Ralph L. Juliano FAX (302) 762-5039 Sending Many Times Another method of disributing mail to many addresses is to write a small program that takes a list of addresses and simply sends a separate message to each one. This kind of distribution is useful for sending out membership mailings or newsletters, because each message can have a TO: header referring to the specific recipient. In addition, replies will not go to the whole group, since the message copies do not contain addresses for the whole group. Instead, replies typically go only to the address in the From: header, and perhaps also to the original recipient. You may also choose to add fruther headers to the outgoing message copies. For example, putting in a Reply-To: header can help ensure that responses go to the right place. This option of using a program to send an individual copy of a mail to each person is, of course, only available to users whose systems have facilities for writing programs, shich many ststems with munu-driven interfaces do not. It is not an approach you would want to use for most mailing lists, anyway. For example, you want many responses to go to everybody; you just don't want everybody's addresses in the headers. A real mailing list solves these problems. ** END OF MESSAGE ** From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 17:23:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA07086 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 17:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kvnet.kvnet.org (kvnet.org [198.67.7.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA07079 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 17:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605210021.RAA07079@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from [198.67.7.52] by kvnet.org id a49a0.wrk; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:36:52 EDT X-Sender: futrcpts@kvnet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: futrcpts@kvnet.org (Mike Matthews) Subject: query Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi All, I need to find list groups for my local area and nearby areas. I live outside Louisville, Ky. Can anyone tell me how to find groups where the members are all or mostly nearby ?? Also, can anyone tell me how to find groups or addresses relating to corporate chains ? Thanks in advance futrcpts@kvnet.org From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 18:08:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA08953 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 17:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from desiree.teleport.com (desiree.teleport.com [192.108.254.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA08946 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 17:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 708661617 (ip-pdx12-43.teleport.com [206.163.122.235]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA17280 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605210056.RAA17280@desiree.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: SPAM: Floodgate Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is something that appeared in my mailbox today. Thought someone might be interested in this new spam. >Return-Path: worldnet@mail.netfree.com >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: "Prime Data WorldNet Systems" >Organization: Prime Data WorldNet Systems >To: "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)>, > "(Floodgate)"< (worldnet@mail.netfree.com)> >Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:26:02 +0000 >Subject: Floodgate >Reply-to: worldnet@mail.netfree.com >Priority: normal > > >BULK E-MAIL SOFTWARE > >1996 is going to be your best year yet! > >Last year I developed a new marketing strategy. The people I've >already taught this to have more leads than they can deal with! >Most are making more money than they've ever made in their life! > >This is the same software that all the bulk emailing services use! > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >FLOODgate Bulk E-mail Loader for Windows >Version 4.10a now Supports 12 File Formats including AOL >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >SEND OUT 500+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY! > >Or... every few days. Or 50,000 or 100,000 every day!! > >In fact, when I send out 500 marketing letters each day, it doesn't >take long before I'm completely swamped with e-mail inquiries and >phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk >mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and >provide you with the tools you'll need. > >Every single day our mailboxes are stuffed, with new inquiries, >questions, and that wonderful phrase, "I've just sent you an order." > >Floodgate is a bulk e-mail loader. It allows you to easily build >huge targeted mailing lists. Use these lists to send your marketing >letter, or your clients marketing letter, to 100,000's of people. > >As you know, there is no charge to send e-mail, via the Internet. > >If you'd like to hear more about FLOODGATE, simply send an >E-Mail to my autoresponder at: floodgate@mail.netfree.com > >Regards, > >Vernon Hale >Prime Data Systems >Bowling Green, Ky > > Rae French rfrench@teleport.com From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 20:08:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA18311 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id UAA18303 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:05:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605210305.UAA18303@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA24853 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:36:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from garyb@localhost) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00365 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 May 1996 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Gary E. Bickford" Message-Id: <199605201635.JAA00365@outlawnet.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: where is kevin's REAL email address? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Folks, One must assume that the infamous Kevin has a real, personal email address, that has permanence, that he uses for email that is important to him, and that he can use to subscribe to this list and others like it. List subscriptions are probably through a mail gateway somewhere. Food for thought. From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 20:11:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA18178 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id UAA18170 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:01:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605210301.UAA18170@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA05130 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 05:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA29568 ; for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 08:46:11 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605201246.IAA29568@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Complaining About Spam, and Doing Something About It To: pjg@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 08:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, comments@imc.org In-Reply-To: <9205.832278714@uRTH.ACSu.BuFFALO.EDu> from "Paul Graham" at May 16, 96 04:31:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Paul Graham eric said ``I suppose I could subscribe this list to LISTSERV spam events,'' i was going to suggest that but i decided that l-soft had concluded it wasn't prudent to do so. i would whole-heartedly support that (or sending the notices to some other list). The latter, please. If there were some way to use special handling for expedited delivery for this orderwire it would be good. Would this be an issue by which the IMA could establish its credibility as a force for good, Paul (Hoffman)? Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 20:38:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA19647 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA19640 for ; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:28:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) with SMTP id UAA28757; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31A137CD.51C6@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:26:05 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Reviews / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b3 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: ADMIN: problem with some list messages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry about the messages that appear to have been forwarded by me to the list; they're an artifact of a bug in the new version of Majordomo. Hope to have a fix installed soon. In the meantime, please be sure to check your headers if you want to reply to the list and/or poster, so the reply doesn't just go to me. -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon May 20 21:08:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA23608 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imc.org (imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA23598; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [165.227.113.247] (phoffman.sc.scruznet.com [165.227.113.247]) by imc.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20161; Mon, 20 May 1996 20:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605210301.UAA18170@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 20:58:59 -0700 To: "Michael C. Berch" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Would this be an >issue by which the IMA could establish its credibility as a force >for good, Paul (Hoffman)? The IMC will most likely take a look at spam and what should be done about it from an industry standpoint. It hurts us as an industry, and is thus a topic that we should deal with. *When* we'll deal with it is another question, but I certainly hope soon. From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 11:09:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23081 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA23061 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06653 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:41:06 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: wow.com? Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:38:23 GMT Message-ID: References: <18287.832351281@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <18287.832351281@rivers.dra.hmg.gb>, Christopher Samuel wrote: >I've not run into wow.com, however compuserve.com itself has exactly the >same problem. In fact it may be worse than you think as they will send >messages to the Reply-To: field if it is present, so if they're using >the same broken mailer..... :-( It's odd you say that, as I've never had the problem. I get several bounces from CIS each day, and they've never come back to the lists (which is where I have Reply-To: pointing at). Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 12:54:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05662 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 12:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from j51.com (gorplex.j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA05646 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 12:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from genesis (pmb24.j51.com [165.254.214.56]) by j51.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA04477 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960521194730.00ac68c8@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:47:30 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: wow.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I appreciate getting advance warning about this - wow.com has just started creating this problem for us. I suggested to the original writer that he put together a press release from the "ad hoc committee for responsible list management" and let us all add comments before sending it out. But he hasn't written anything yet, apparently - any takers? Ken Menken At 05:38 PM 5/21/96 GMT, Nigel Whitfield wrote: >In article <18287.832351281@rivers.dra.hmg.gb>, >Christopher Samuel wrote: >>I've not run into wow.com, however compuserve.com itself has exactly the >>same problem. In fact it may be worse than you think as they will send >>messages to the Reply-To: field if it is present, so if they're using >>the same broken mailer..... :-( > >It's odd you say that, as I've never had the problem. I get several >bounces from CIS each day, and they've never come back to the lists >(which is where I have Reply-To: pointing at). > From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 15:08:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA19709 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 14:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsv-server.cici.com (hsv-server.cici.com [199.190.254.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA19698 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 14:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.sga.com by hsv-server.cici.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:54:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sarah L. Green" To: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Help! Compuserve Contact Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk HI! Anybody got a contact at compuserve who can get postmaster@compuserve.com to stop spam'ing a mailing list? Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it receives for the specified account. Of course since the full mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they basically said it was not their problem. Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks! Sarah. ============================================================================== Sarah L. Green Hey, I never claimed to be >>osprey<< Madison, AL (USA) a genius nor a typist greens@sga.com ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 15:11:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA19725 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 14:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hsv-server.cici.com (hsv-server.cici.com [199.190.254.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA19713 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 14:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.sga.com by hsv-server.cici.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:54:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sarah L. Green" To: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Help! Compuserve Contact Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk HI! Anybody got a contact at compuserve who can get postmaster@compuserve.com to stop spam'ing a mailing list? Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it receives for the specified account. Of course since the full mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they basically said it was not their problem. Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks! Sarah. ============================================================================== Sarah L. Green Hey, I never claimed to be >>osprey<< Madison, AL (USA) a genius nor a typist greens@sga.com ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 15:56:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23175 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail6 (mail6.netcom.com [192.100.81.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA23160 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: bh@stargame.org Received: from stargame.org (bh@bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by mail6 (8.6.13/Netcom) Received: from localhost (bh@localhost) by stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA01113; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:43:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:43:22 -0500 (CDT) To: "Sarah L. Green" cc: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sarah L. Green wrote: > HI! > Anybody got a contact at compuserve who can get > postmaster@compuserve.com to stop spam'ing a mailing list? > > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last > count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber > in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. > > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > basically said it was not their problem. > > Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks! Sounds like you just need to remove the address with the full mailbox that is causing the loop. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 16:00:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23176 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail6 (mail6.netcom.com [192.100.81.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA23167 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:45:58 -0700 (PDT) From: bh@stargame.org Received: from stargame.org (bh@bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by mail6 (8.6.13/Netcom) Received: from localhost (bh@localhost) by stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA01113; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:43:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:43:22 -0500 (CDT) To: "Sarah L. Green" cc: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sarah L. Green wrote: > HI! > Anybody got a contact at compuserve who can get > postmaster@compuserve.com to stop spam'ing a mailing list? > > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last > count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber > in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. > > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > basically said it was not their problem. > > Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks! Sounds like you just need to remove the address with the full mailbox that is causing the loop. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 16:08:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23661 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA23652 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 15:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Message-Id: <199605212217.PAA16046@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:17:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sarah L. Green wrote: > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. [...] > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > basically said it was not their problem. Apart from the issue of Compuserve being an unfriendly neighbor, I must wonder -- why hasn't the list owner just removed the compuserve address from the list of subscribers? -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 269,881st person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 17:38:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA00175 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from osprey.sga.com (osprey.sga.com [199.233.127.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA00167 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:25:26 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sarah L. Green" To: Kynn Bartlett cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: <199605212217.PAA16046@idyllmtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > Apart from the issue of Compuserve being an unfriendly neighbor, I > must wonder -- why hasn't the list owner just removed the compuserve > address from the list of subscribers? > They have deleted the user's subscription but CServe keeps responding. (A queue somewhere?) CServe's current suggestion is for the listowner to forward all offending messages to the postmaster at CServe. Sarah. ============================================================================== Sarah L. Green Hey, I never claimed to be >>osprey<< Madison, AL (USA) a genius nor a typist greens@sga.com ============================================================================== From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 17:53:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA01207 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA01162 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 17:38:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA05561 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:36:15 +1000 (EST) Received: from slmel7p17.ozemail.com.au (slmel7p17.ozemail.com.au [203.22.156.105]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA28689 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:36:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960522022507.08d7a266@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:37:23 -1000 To: List-Managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Help with my disaster !!! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A friendly colleague woke me early this morning with the news that my mailing list had been struck with a vicious cycle disaster, which had resulted in over 250 useless emails bombarding list members' hapless in-boxes. The cause was something I recall being discussed on this list before, but cannot recall the solution to. A member's email box had become overfull (she has actually gone to Africa, but didn't tell me or her institution's email administator). So her university's mailer-daemon has now started to send all her email back to sender, which of course in this case was my mailing list. This set up the vicious cycle, as these bounces were in turn distributed back to her as a list member, not to mention the other 130 innocents! My only initial defence was a not-too-subtle solution - I unsubscribed everyone and stopped the list entirely. Now I have two questions which I really hope you guys can help me with: 1. The list is a closed and unmoderated majordomo (version 1.94-alpha1), with all restrict_postings set to yes. Why then did it accept the bounces at all, since they came from a mailing-daemon (see header below) ? I would have thought they would be rejected as being from a non-list member and passed on to me as owner. 2. How can I set up some sort of filter to prevent a recurrence? I am unfortunately both ignorant of perl and an off-site list administrator, who does not have direct access to the university server which it runs on. I was thinking the taboo_headers field set to recognise the word "undelivered" might do the trick, but what is the syntax? 3. A related issue is how to prevent receipt acknowledgements being accepted by the list, when an email with the `receipt request' flag turned on happens to have been sent out. I thought perhaps the taboo_headers might also work, if it could pick up the keyword "RCPT" Any help either to this list or even better to me personally at helmant@ozemail.com.au would be much appreciated. Kind regards, Dr.Tony Helman Sydney, Australia ............................................................ Addendum: HEADER THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN REJECTED BY MAJORDOMO: ............................................................ Sender: owner-nutr-med@health.adelaide.edu.au Reply-To: nutr-med@health.adelaide.edu.au Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 00:18:14 +0000 (DST) From: MAILER-DAEMON@Vines2.WAU.NL Subject: Undeliverable Message To: nutr-med@health.adelaide.edu.au X-Envelope-to: nutr-med@health.adelaide.edu.au X-Status: To: Cc: Subject: Undeliverable Message Message not delivered to recipients below. Press F1 for help with VNM error codes. VNM3043: Lenneke Vaandrager@Alg@VLK.WAU VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 18:38:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA04256 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA04242 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA24077; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:18:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: "Sarah L. Green" cc: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sarah L. Green wrote: > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last > count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber > in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, started sending these messages directly to the list. The solution to your problem is to remove the user from the list, which should eventually kill this cycle. More immediately you can moderate the list until the cycle ends. But the above step will eventually kill it. > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > basically said it was not their problem. It isn't. It's your problem and your responsibility to remove any subscriber you don't want. Meanwhile CIS is not in the wrong by sending messages that say a certain user's mailbox is full. Their only wrong is that they've recently changed it to send it to the list instead of just the list-owner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 18:41:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA04180 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA04171 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net(205.162.154.10) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA24077; Tue, 21 May 1996 18:18:20 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:18:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: "Sarah L. Green" cc: list-managers@miles.GreatCircle.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sarah L. Green wrote: > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last > count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber > in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, started sending these messages directly to the list. The solution to your problem is to remove the user from the list, which should eventually kill this cycle. More immediately you can moderate the list until the cycle ends. But the above step will eventually kill it. > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > basically said it was not their problem. It isn't. It's your problem and your responsibility to remove any subscriber you don't want. Meanwhile CIS is not in the wrong by sending messages that say a certain user's mailbox is full. Their only wrong is that they've recently changed it to send it to the list instead of just the list-owner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 20:08:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA10883 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 19:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA10876 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 19:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kidzen@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA28189 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 May 1996 19:50:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by erzo.ORG (8.6.9/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) Message-Id: <199605220218.TAA00532@erzo.ORG> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Reply-To: appel@erzo.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 May 96 18:18:18 PDT." Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:18:29 -0700 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner >that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, >started sending these messages directly to the list. You know, I recently had this exact same problem with GEnie. Why the hell did these major online servers suddenly lose their brains and start replying to To: addresses (or maybe Reply-To:) rather than envelope Froms? I sent a nasty letter to GEnie, which was promptly ignored, and so I was forced to pull all GEnie subscribers from my lists in self-defense. If I have the same problem with compuserve, they'll definitely get the same treatment. Shannon From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 20:38:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA12775 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 20:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andrew.cais.com (andrew.cais.com [199.0.216.215]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA12768 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 20:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by andrew.cais.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA29300; Tue, 21 May 1996 23:22:59 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:22:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Roger Burns Reply-To: Roger Burns To: LSTOWN-L Subject: Pre-moderation: work-saving techniques? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a moderated list, and I'm thinking of switching to pre-moderation in order to focus the group more. But I don't think I have enough volunteers to make pre-moderation practical. Are there any work-saving techniques that can enable a limited number of pre-moderators to get more done? Any advice will be helpful. I'm not currently subscribed to this group, so please CC me at my individual address, thanks. -- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 21:39:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17502 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA17495 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 2; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:24:23 PDT Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:24:21 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: greens@sga.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A2AE4.56F2DDE8.2@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"greens@sga.com" 21-MAY-1996 17:39:29.94 > Subj: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact > On Tue, 21 May 1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > > > Apart from the issue of Compuserve being an unfriendly neighbor, I > > must wonder -- why hasn't the list owner just removed the compuserve > > address from the list of subscribers? > > > They have deleted the user's subscription but CServe keeps responding. > (A queue somewhere?) > CServe's current suggestion is for the listowner to forward all > offending messages to the postmaster at CServe. > > Sarah. > ============================================================================== > Sarah L. Green Hey, I never claimed to be >>osprey<< > Madison, AL (USA) a genius nor a typist greens@sga.com > ============================================================================== > Sarah, I've run into the same problem with Compuserve - it appears that mail gets so backlogged that it can take hours for all of the bounced messages to drain out of their system. I also explicitly warn members of my lists who use Compuserve and AOL that those services have limited mailbox capacity, and to check their mail frequently, otherwise once it starts bouncing, I'll have no other choice but to remove them. Good luck, -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 21:41:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA16915 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id VAA16887 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:22:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605220422.VAA16887@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA28937 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 11:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA08527; Tue, 21 May 1996 11:51:22 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA09085; Tue, 21 May 96 11:00:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:00:04 -0700 Message-Id: <9605211800.AA09085@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Alan Deikman Subject: Just dreaming.... Muy Bein Senors y Senoritas: This list seems the best place to bring this up. During the last binge I did of mailing list maintenence I was just wondering how nice it would be if there were a standardized was of subscribing and unsubscribing from Internet mailing lists. I run SmartList (very happy with it) which is a fact lost on most of the readership, who insist on sending me Listserv or Majordomo commands, or others that I don't recognize but seem to have a pattern to them. A good part of list maintenence is a result of this sort of mistake. Has anyone done any work on standardizing this interface? If not, perhaps a subset of this group could get together and perhaps propose one that could be supported in the NEXT revision of the various software packages. Perhaps it could become a (whipser it) RFC? Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue May 21 21:47:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17905 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA17894 for ; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 5; Tue, 21 May 1996 21:29:28 PDT Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:29:26 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brozen@netvoyage.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"brozen@netvoyage.net" 21-MAY-1996 18:38:19.56 > Subj: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact > On Tue, 21 May 1996, Sarah L. Green wrote: > > > Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list > > has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a > > "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it > > receives for the specified account. Of course since the full > > mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last > > count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber > > in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. > > Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner > that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, > started sending these messages directly to the list. > Well, this is is totally bogus - even lists that generate an: "Errots-To:" header? I've not had a problem with Compuserve flooding my lists since I've used a mailer that generates these headers, otherwise I'd have serious doubts about even letting someone subscribe from these addresses. > The solution to your problem is to remove the user from the list, which > should eventually kill this cycle. > > More immediately you can moderate the list until the cycle ends. But the > above step will eventually kill it. > > > While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can > > anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According > > to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they > > basically said it was not their problem. > > It isn't. It's your problem and your responsibility to remove any > subscriber you don't want. Meanwhile CIS is not in the wrong by sending > messages that say a certain user's mailbox is full. Their only wrong is > that they've recently changed it to send it to the list instead of just > the list-owner. > I don't suppose that there is a chance in Hell of getting CIS to recant this flawsed decision... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | > | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 03:08:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA03498 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA03486 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 02:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 22 May 1996 10:52:29 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK Subject: Official investigation of KK Lipsitz (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:51:22 +0100 Message-ID: <1961.832758682@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This just came through via another list.. DISCLAIMER: Nothing to do with me or DRA/DERA, just forwarding infomation... ------- Forwarded Message Date sent: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:40:37 -0700 Send reply to: Spam Prevention Discussion List From: Edward Cherlin Subject: Official investigation of KK Lipsitz To: Multiple recipients of list SPAM-L My complaint to the National Fraud Information Center about Kevin Lipsitz is bearing fruit. I received a formal invitation to join a case against him. The Attorney General's office of the state of New York is investigating Lipsitz's activities. They are soliciting affidavits with copies of documentation (advertisements, solicitations, letters to Lipsitz, cancelled checks, credit card bills, or receipts). (Don't send originals.) I assume that copies of violated Terms of Service Contracts will also be welcome. Contact Information: Eric A. Wenger Assistant Attorney General State of New York Department of Law Consumer Frauds and Protection Bureau 120 Broadway New York NY 10271 212-416-8332 voice 212-416-6003 fax I am requesting an E-mail address for sending in materials related to this case. Tell them your tale, and they will send you an affidavit to sign in front of a notary public of your choice and mail or fax back to them. Edward Cherlin Helping Newbies to become "knowbies" Point Top 5% Vice President http://www.newbie.net/ of Web sites NewbieNet, Inc. Everything should be made as simple as possible, (916) 938-4684 __but no simpler__. Albert Einstein ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 03:23:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA04024 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA03998 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16487; Wed, 22 May 1996 03:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 03:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199605221011.DAA16487@weber.ucsd.edu> To: greens@cici.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: "Sarah L. Green"'s message of Tue, 21 May 1996 16:54:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Help! Compuserve Contact Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:54:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Sarah L. Green" Anybody got a contact at compuserve who can get postmaster@compuserve.com to stop spam'ing a mailing list? Haven't made one there yet, sorry. Basically a subscriber (based on Compuserve) to the mailing list has a full mailbox, and postmaster@compuserve.com is sending a "can not deliver" message to the mailing list for each message it receives for the specified account. Of course since the full mailbox is a subscriber, it is now a vicious cycle. At last count, I believe it has been 300+ messages to each subscriber in 24 hours. Which should qualify this as a SPAM. Weird. But why do you call it a spam? Doesn't a spam have to have some level of intent? This sounds like a vicious bug or techincal error to me. I get bounced mail from compuserve nearly every day from people's full mailboxes there (they must have a pretty low mail quota). But I never have any problems with them. Compuserve does the correct thing with bounced mail and sends the messages to the "return-path" field. For example, my list address is immune@weber.ucsd.edu and the admin address (an alias for my private mailbox) is immune-request@weber.ucsd.edu. The retrun-path: line has the immune-request address. Not all mailers show return-path, which is a shame because it's extremely useful (seems to be dependent on the system settings too since the same mailer on different machines show or not show it). Make sure this field is set properly on your system. Your sysop should be the one doing it. While it is not my list so "technically" not my problem, can anybody help or give me some pointers to pass along? According to the list owner, when she called compuserve's helpline, they basically said it was not their problem. Ahh...take what I said above and replace "you" with "she." If this is a return-path problem, compuserve is correct that it is not their problem. If it is something else...well, that would depend on what it is... Any and all help would be appreciated! Thanks! She's removed the problem address, right?? (sometimes you just gotta state the obvious). Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 04:07:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA05957 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA05949 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 22 May 1996 11:57:33 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Cyndi Norman Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <199605221011.DAA16487@weber.ucsd.edu> In-reply-to: <199605221011.DAA16487@weber.ucsd.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:56:48 +0100 Message-ID: <2281.832762608@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199605221011.DAA16487@weber.ucsd.edu>, Cyndi Norman writes: > Compuserve does the correct thing with bounced mail and sends the messages > to the "return-path" field. It seems it may be a function of the user whom you are trying to reach, certainly when my list melted down it was due to CompuServe ignoring the RFCs and sending bounces back to the list itself rather than using the envelope sender. Chris From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 04:22:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA06954 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA06937 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 22 May 1996 12:11:12 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: "Henry W. Miller" CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> In-reply-to: <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:10:06 +0100 Message-ID: <2308.832763406@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, "Henry W. Miller" writes: > > Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner > > that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, > > started sending these messages directly to the list. > > Well, this is is totally bogus - even lists that generate an: > "Errots-To:" header? I've not had a problem with Compuserve flooding my > lists since I've used a mailer that generates these headers, otherwise > I'd have serious doubts about even letting someone subscribe from these > addresses. But Errors-To: is not a standard header and should be ignored by an RFC compliant mailer, and indeed Eric Alman writes in the release notes for sendmail: The Errors-To: header violates RFC 1123. Errors-To: was only needed to take the place of the envelope sender in the days when most Unix mailers didn't understand about the two kinds of senders. Chris -- Christopher Samuel, Open Software Systems Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 04:37:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA08093 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA08035 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 23; Wed, 22 May 1996 04:29:13 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 04:29:10 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A2B1F.AFA7085C.23@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb" 22-MAY-1996 04:12:15.14 > Subj: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Chris, > In message <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov>, > "Henry W. Miller" writes: > > > > Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner > > > that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, > > > started sending these messages directly to the list. > > > > Well, this is is totally bogus - even lists that generate an: > > "Errots-To:" header? I've not had a problem with Compuserve flooding my > > lists since I've used a mailer that generates these headers, otherwise > > I'd have serious doubts about even letting someone subscribe from these > > addresses. > > But Errors-To: is not a standard header and should be ignored by an RFC > compliant mailer, and indeed Eric Alman writes in the release notes for > sendmail: > > The Errors-To: header violates RFC 1123. > Errors-To: was only needed to take the place of the > envelope sender in the days when most Unix mailers > didn't understand about the two kinds of senders. > This is true, and this fact came to mind about two seconds after I sent the message. A good number of mailers still support this header, though. As far as commenting on the above citation, I'll take the Fifth Ammendment... > Chris > -- > Christopher Samuel, Open Software Systems Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb > N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK > DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 > +MIME+ +PGP+ > -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 06:37:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA12797 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 06:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA12789 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 06:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA24892 ; for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:21:39 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605221321.JAA24892@access2.digex.net> Subject: Standard sign-on, sign-of, etc. To: alan@Znyx.com Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To me this is a deliverable-oriented task that calls for a splinter group. If you want to pursue such a group, may I join you on the ad hoc organizing committee? Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 08:07:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA20325 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA20308 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 11:00:41 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9605221100.aa25585@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Compuserve does the correct thing with bounced mail and sends the messages >to the "return-path" field. No it does not. return-path means nothing. Bounced mail should ONLY be sent to the SMTP envelope address. wow.com (compuserve's new toy online service) violates this with apparent impunity. One list I'm on has been hit so often by this that the admin now has a cron script running which purges wow.com from the list on an hourly (that's right, hourly) basis. Yes, the address keeps being re-subscribed (we have a feeling they're gatewaying it to an internal newsgroup or somesuch). >to the "return-path" field. For example, my list address is >immune@weber.ucsd.edu and the admin address (an alias for my private >mailbox) is immune-request@weber.ucsd.edu. The retrun-path: line has the >immune-request address. Not all mailers show return-path, which is a shame >because it's extremely useful (seems to be dependent on the system settings >too since the same mailer on different machines show or not show it). Make >sure this field is set properly on your system. Your sysop should be the >one doing it. I'm the "sysop" on this machine and I can tell you that your last statement is erroneous. return-path is nonstandard. A properly configured mailer will ignore all fields in the message header and bounce failed mail to the address in the SMTP envelope. Why should I take the time and energy to hack my mailer to accommodate a large, for-cost online provider who can't get it together? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 09:07:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA25623 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA25563 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA27154; Wed, 22 May 1996 08:56:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: Shannon Appel cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: <199605220218.TAA00532@erzo.ORG> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 May 1996, Shannon Appel wrote: > >Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner > >that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, > >started sending these messages directly to the list. > > You know, I recently had this exact same problem with GEnie. Why the > hell did these major online servers suddenly lose their brains and > start replying to To: addresses (or maybe Reply-To:) rather than > envelope Froms? I sent a nasty letter to GEnie, which was promptly > ignored, and so I was forced to pull all GEnie subscribers from my > lists in self-defense. If I have the same problem with compuserve, > they'll definitely get the same treatment. All my lists are moderated. Since we only have a few lists which allow active participation, I see every message, be it a bounce, post or whatever. For me, at least, it's not so bad if the bounced message goes into the wrong folder (I filter ALL my mail). But definetly agreed, although I think pulling all GEnie subscribers is a little severe. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 09:22:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA26107 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA26096 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) Message-Id: <9605221608.AA05816@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 96 11:00:41 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 22 May 96 12:08:22 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>Compuserve does the correct thing with bounced mail and sends the messages >>to the "return-path" field. > >No it does not. return-path means nothing. Bounced mail should ONLY be sent >to the SMTP envelope address. > >>Not all mailers show return-path, which is a shame >>because it's extremely useful (seems to be dependent on the system settings >>too since the same mailer on different machines show or not show it). Make >>sure this field is set properly on your system. Your sysop should be the >>one doing it. > >I'm the "sysop" on this machine and I can tell you that your last statement >is erroneous. return-path is nonstandard. A properly configured mailer will >ignore all fields in the message header and bounce failed mail to the >address in the SMTP envelope. Down, boy! "Return-path:" is to some systems what "From " is to others. _Both_ are non-standard and _both_ merely show the recipient in the visible header area what was written in the envelope From: field. Therefore you are _both_ right but you're arguing with each other while at the same time agreeing with each other because of a confusion of terms! -Mitch From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 09:37:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA26929 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA26920 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keagan.cit.cornell.edu (KEAGAN.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.69.186]) by cornell.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02294; Wed, 22 May 1996 12:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199605221619.MAA02294@cornell.edu> From: Sue Utter Honig To: "Bob Stringfield, ODCSPER" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ListServ Administrator Job Descriptions In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 18 May 1996 15:52:01 -0000." Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:28:14 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manage a couple of LISTPROC servers as the main part of my job. I was supposed to also have time to do other things, but mailing list usage has exploded since I started a couple of years ago. We now run two servers hosting over 1000 lists between them. Why do you want to know? Sue Honig suh1@cornell.edu > Sorry for the multiple posting but I am still searching around for > listserv administrator job descriptions. Anyone have this as their > primary or secondary job? Thanks... > --bob > > ************************************************************************* > Robert (Bob) L. Stringfield HQ USAREUR & 7A (ODCSPER) > CMR 420 Box 1687 > APO AE 09063 > ETS: 370-4141/4242 COML: 06221-574141/574242 (Germany) > FAX: 06221-390838 IRC Nick - DeathStar (:ds) > root@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil or bstring@hq.hqusareur.army.mil or > bstring@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil WWW - http://144.170.207.252 > IMO - ODCSPER USAREUR ListOwner - EMPLOY > Truth: IGNORANCE hates Knowledge > ************************************************************************ > From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 09:42:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA27242 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:30:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA27235 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP Message-Id: <199605221626.LAA02103@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: brozen@netvoyage.net cc: Shannon Appel , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 May 1996 08:56:55 PDT." Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:26:51 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It may be sever to pull all users from a service provider that is causing problems, but it does tend to be effective. A couple years ago I was having problems with a couple of major sites or service providers. I had tried contacting them through all the normal channels but had no effect. Finally as a last shot, I sent a message to all the subscribers in the lists from those sites stating that on a certain date I was going to be removing them from the list since their site was being unresponsive to problems. I informed them that I regretted to be forced into doing it, but for the well being of the lists, it was needed. I also put into the message that I would be adding their site to the "denial" list so they could not resubscribe. I would also be adding the site to the FAQ for the list so that others would know why they should not choose site z to provide them service. If they didn't like this, they had 3 options. First, unfortunatley, live without the list. Second, Try to get someone from the sites tech support to contact me. Third, move to a different service provider. I also asked that when they dropped from the problem site that they send a letter to the people involved stating why they were leaving. I was rather suprising to find in my inbox a couple days later a rather lengthy message from one of the sites VP's asking me to hold off for about a month on making such changes as they actually saw the light. They actually started to turn around at that point and are now alot better than they once were, and many times better than several of their competitors. Bottom line is that places will listen if you hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book. Brock Rozen made the following keystrokes: >On Tue, 21 May 1996, Shannon Appel wrote: > >> >Not really, it qualifies it as an automated message telling the list-owner >> >that the user's mailbox is full. CIS has recently, for some weird reason, >> >started sending these messages directly to the list. >> >> You know, I recently had this exact same problem with GEnie. Why the >> hell did these major online servers suddenly lose their brains and >> start replying to To: addresses (or maybe Reply-To:) rather than >> envelope Froms? I sent a nasty letter to GEnie, which was promptly >> ignored, and so I was forced to pull all GEnie subscribers from my >> lists in self-defense. If I have the same problem with compuserve, >> they'll definitely get the same treatment. > >All my lists are moderated. Since we only have a few lists which allow >active participation, I see every message, be it a bounce, post or >whatever. For me, at least, it's not so bad if the bounced message goes >into the wrong folder (I filter ALL my mail). But definetly agreed, >although I think pulling all GEnie subscribers is a little severe. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | > | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 10:13:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA28347 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA28324 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 10; Wed, 22 May 1996 09:54:42 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:54:39 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A2B4D.28444982.10@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"info-labview-request@pica.army.mil" 22-MAY-1996 08:08:12.91 > Subj: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact > >Compuserve does the correct thing with bounced mail and sends the messages > >to the "return-path" field. > > No it does not. return-path means nothing. Bounced mail should ONLY be sent > to the SMTP envelope address. wow.com (compuserve's new toy online service) > violates this with apparent impunity. One list I'm on has been hit so often > by this that the admin now has a cron script running which purges wow.com > from the list on an hourly (that's right, hourly) basis. Yes, the address > keeps being re-subscribed (we have a feeling they're gatewaying it to an > internal newsgroup or somesuch). > > >to the "return-path" field. For example, my list address is > >immune@weber.ucsd.edu and the admin address (an alias for my private > >mailbox) is immune-request@weber.ucsd.edu. The retrun-path: line has the > >immune-request address. Not all mailers show return-path, which is a shame > >because it's extremely useful (seems to be dependent on the system settings > >too since the same mailer on different machines show or not show it). Make > >sure this field is set properly on your system. Your sysop should be the > >one doing it. > > I'm the "sysop" on this machine and I can tell you that your last statement > is erroneous. return-path is nonstandard. A properly configured mailer will > ignore all fields in the message header and bounce failed mail to the > address in the SMTP envelope. Why should I take the time and energy to hack > my mailer to accommodate a large, for-cost online provider who can't get it > together? > Excuse me - have you checked RFC's 821, 822 & 1123 lately? Return-Path: IS, repeat IS a standard. > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 11:08:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA02499 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 11:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA02490 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 11:03:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA13972 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 14:00:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:00:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Email and lists... Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Well... I've come full circle on many of these issues. I'm now back at the start as my colleagues and I prepare to implement a new system of email routing/service, list services, et cetera for the University of Louisville. Our background? For years, a large majority of the email users across the campus have relied on an IBM mainframe. This mainframe, with calendaring, listserv, et cetera has been their focal machine. This is beginning to change, and we are at a crossroads as to what to do with email and mailing lists. In the past, when someone wanted a mailing list, they would either request a listserv mailing list, or would create an alias file somewhere on a shareable minidisk. Others would then send mail to the listserv list, or send mail to an alias which used the publically readable alias file. One point of contention in our group at present is whether or not there should be a division between mailing lists and what I term (and what shall hereafter be referenced as) "exploder" lists... Some say that we could provide a means of creation/maintenance/deletion of small exploder lists on our mail router. Essentially, anyone with access to the proper client-server software (probably WWW) and a proper ID and PIN could create/modify/delete an exploder list. The lists would be maintained in a database and then exported to flat-text files for inclusion as sendmail alias exploder files. All of this separate from standard listserv functions. Others say that we could run both traditional mailing lists and simpler exploder lists all with one listserver. In essence, anyone with access to C/S software (probably WWW) and a proper ID and PIN could create/modify/delete a listserv mailing list. The setup screens for such a list could be simple (no options) to complex (all options). But behind it all would be listserv...nothing else. It seems to boil down to performance. We could potentially have hundreds of lists...possibly more than a thousand...long term maybe even several thousand. Can listserv handle such a load on a single machine? Would it be ridiculously slow? Would separating the functions of mailing lists and exploder lists ease the load on the listserv? Does anyone have a similar situation? With the migration to C/S style technology, it is harder to share an alias file between ten people than it was in the day of the mainframe. So a mailing list of some sort must come into play... Any help on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMaNWUJo1JaC71RLxAQFxKAP+I3YnMcWUGN5ZGoOKxuuozjTvO2YfLSC8 RELy6AY8kZ+rfcc0jmO/ndgIgb91OoTU9KjgZrkPMACEQT6jls4w9yOU1SayyPiv U+ygIBq0WBzKpP4aQPjjHZqLhu9J3legzMphGExDpqdNvvVAv8SOBTxEQMdWnvZH n1M2+DT+lhc= =85L5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 13:38:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA15555 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA15517 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 13:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 May 96 16:28:42 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: "Henry W. Miller" Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9605221628.aa28084@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I'm the "sysop" on this machine and I can tell you that your last statement >> is erroneous. return-path is nonstandard. A properly configured mailer will >> ignore all fields in the message header and bounce failed mail to the >> address in the SMTP envelope. Why should I take the time and energy to hack >> my mailer to accommodate a large, for-cost online provider who can't get it >> together? >> > > Excuse me - have you checked RFC's 821, 822 & 1123 lately? >Return-Path: IS, repeat IS a standard. You're right. It is a standard way of setting the SMTP envelope, although not too widely implemented (that I've seen - your msg to me certainly doesn't include one, for instance). Looking at RFC1123: "When the receiver-SMTP makes "final delivery" of a message, then it MUST pass the MAIL FROM: address from the SMTP envelope with the message, for use if an error notification message must be sent later (see Section 5.3.3). There is an analogous requirement when gatewaying from the Internet into a different mail environment; see Section 5.3.7. DISCUSSION: Note that the final reply to the DATA command depends only upon the successful transfer and storage of the message. Any problem with the destination address(es) must either (1) have been reported in an SMTP error reply to the RCPT command(s), or (2) be reported in a later error message mailed to the originator. IMPLEMENTATION: The MAIL FROM: information may be passed as a parameter or in a Return-Path: line inserted at the beginning of the message." All of which means nothing since wow.com bounces to the From: address regardless. :-{ Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 14:46:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA18269 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 13:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA18209 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 13:52:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605222052.NAA18209@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 8829; Wed, 22 May 1996 22:47:05 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 22:22:46 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Email and lists... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, "Jason A. Dour" In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 May 1996 14:00:46 -0400 (EDT) from Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 22 May 1996 14:00:46 -0400 (EDT) "Jason A. Dour" said: >It seems to boil down to performance. We could potentially have hundreds >of lists...possibly more than a thousand...long term maybe even several >thousand. Can listserv handle such a load on a single machine? The largest number of LISTSERV lists on a single machine is 3,561 (our web site claims a lower number because a lot of LISTSERV sites choose not to register their server in the public list of LISTSERV sites, and as a matter of policy we don't include them on the web site). The practical limit would depend on the operating system, see below. >Would separating the functions of mailing lists and exploder lists ease >the load on the listserv? It's a tough question that probably depends a lot on the operating system and mail system you are using. A good test is to stuff a very large number of files into one directory, say 20,000. Give them similar names for a worst case scenario, and then delete a file here and there, get a list of all files, etc. If it gets slow (to take an extreme example, picture this on VMS), it's best to use separate machines. If it flies by, it probably doesn't matter much. A sendmail alias clearly takes less resources than a minimal LISTSERV list. If you really have thousands of these and they never change, an alias should be better. If the users want to change them, however, letting LISTSERV manage them could justify the extra resources. With LISTSERV your bottleneck will normally be the mail delivery system. So, to a large extent it depends on how the lists are utilized. If you have enough volume with the aliases to fill up one machine, it's probably best to separate the two services. If the aliases don't generate any serious volume, it's a waste of resources to have two machines. To a large extent, people who make new mailing list purchases today tend to base their decisions on manpower costs rather than resource usage. Computers keep getting cheaper and software keeps getting more efficient. To give you an idea, the largest LISTSERV list has 425,000 subscribers and runs on a 166MHz Pentium with 88M of RAM. I don't have current figures, but back when the list had 300k subscribers, 99% of the recipients got their copy within 3h30 of submission (this is with LSMTP under NT). There aren't many sites that need more horsepower than a high-end PC like this one can offer. There's clearly an initial investment in hardware and software, but managers tend to be more worried about manpower. So, if having all the lists on the same machine is going to cost another 32M of RAM costing $1k and will save time for the guy who has to write the interface to create an alias and then for the help desk people who have two systems to look at when a problem is reported, chances are that they'll get the RAM and use the same machine. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 17:46:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA14906 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 17:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA14899 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.1/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA05879 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 10:41:35 +1000 (EST) Received: from slmel3p45.ozemail.com.au (slmel3p45.ozemail.com.au [203.15.163.61]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA23051 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 10:41:32 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960523023026.59e75654@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: helmant@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:42:42 -1000 To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Field: taboo_body works well Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been experimenting with the taboo_body field in the majordomo config file. Although it is not found in all versions, when it is present it seems to work quite well in filtering out nuisance messages. I have set it up to bounce any message containing the words "RCPT", "Returned" or "undeliverable", but there is no reason why it could not select out key phrases from Krazy Kevin's spams. As with other bounces, it does not notify the sender of the bounce. The taboo_headers field offers further refinement possibilities. The syntax is to place each of the words you wish to filter on a new line falling between the >>END and END tags, and in perl form, i.e. with / before and after: taboo_body >>END /1st word/ /2nd word/ END Two questions: * Have others found this useful or found holes in it? * What are the common phrases or headers that come in email returns from those on holidays? Kind regards, Dr.Tony Helman From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 23:37:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00407 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:23:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA00109 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from mail.his.com(205.177.25.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA11939; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:17:01 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605171531.IAA11651@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Fri, 17 May 96 10:36:45 EDT from Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:33:35 -0400 To: Eric Thomas , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: wow.com? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:19 PM +0200 5/17/96, Eric Thomas wrote: > Someone came up with the interesting > idea that, while you can't really cut compuserve.com off because there > are so many innocent people using it (to take but one example, it's the > only online provider available in Europe, at least until AOL opens shop), > WOW is new and still somewhat in beta, so this need not apply. I *really* hate to toot our horn (especially since someone else might have already), but AOL in Germany launched last year. And AOL in France and AOL in Britain (or whatever they're calling them) launched recently as well. We're not yet completely covering Europe, but we are working on it. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed May 22 23:40:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00507 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA00454 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from mail.his.com(205.177.25.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA14372; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:18:41 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199605210301.UAA18170@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 00:56:15 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman , "Michael C. Berch" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:58 PM -0700 5/20/96, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >Would this be an > >issue by which the IMA could establish its credibility as a force > >for good, Paul (Hoffman)? > > The IMC will most likely take a look at spam and what should be done about > it from an industry standpoint. It hurts us as an industry, and is thus a > topic that we should deal with. *When* we'll deal with it is another > question, but I certainly hope soon. I've talked with the folks at the White House regarding the things they do to detect threats by email, etc.... I know that we (AOL) are very interested in effectively dealing with spam, junkmail, mailbombs, etc... (from the persepctive of our users either generating or receiving this kind of stuff), and I'm sure at least our three groups can get together for some extended discussions. I'm certainly open to listening to anyone else who's interested in participating in that kind of discussion. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 00:09:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02610 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from park.interport.net (park.interport.net [199.184.165.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA02591 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:00:45 -0700 (PDT) From: kieran@interport.net Received: from interport.net (kieran@madison.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.1]) by park.interport.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA12101 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (kieran@localhost) by interport.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA15395 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 02:58:03 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: wow.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 May 1996, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 5:19 PM +0200 5/17/96, Eric Thomas wrote: > > > Someone came up with the interesting > > idea that, while you can't really cut compuserve.com off because there > > are so many innocent people using it (to take but one example, it's the > > only online provider available in Europe, at least until AOL opens shop), > > WOW is new and still somewhat in beta, so this need not apply. > > I *really* hate to toot our horn (especially since someone else > might have already), but AOL in Germany launched last year. And AOL > in France and AOL in Britain (or whatever they're calling them) > launched recently as well. We're not yet completely covering Europe, > but we are working on it. > > -- > Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com > comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer > finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code > The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at > > > From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 00:22:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA04463 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from park.interport.net (park.interport.net [199.184.165.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id AAA04456 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: kieran@interport.net Received: from interport.net (kieran@madison.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.1]) by park.interport.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA13037 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 03:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (kieran@localhost) by interport.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA16008 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 03:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:17:08 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wow.com? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Whoops! Apologies for the blank messages just now; was unintentional. Trust me, you didn't miss anything anyway. :) From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 00:26:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA04624 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA04531 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 00:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from mail.his.com(205.177.25.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA11623; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:16:49 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605161640.MAA05554@phoenix.iss.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:14:26 -0400 To: cfarris@iss.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sendmail Question... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:40 PM -0400 5/16/96, Chris Farris wrote: > You are the best sendmail guru I know of, maybe you could answer a > question I've been having... Dunno if you meant to send this to the list or me privately, but I'll answer anyway. ;-) > Is there an inherent danger or problem in having a large outgoing queue. > We are running a mailing list of about 2000 users, and when I run a > mailq the result is about 70K lines long. Often it seems that the > messages are being held up at an address because of routing or > nameserver problems. I have not noticed a performance problem, but I > have also been trying to keep the queue length down. Unfortuantly I'm > starting up several more lists, and this will soon be impossible to do. In my experience, whenever the mqueue gets over about 10K messages in it, it starts getting slower to pull messages out than it is to put new ones in and you then have a serious problem. For this situation, I recommend multi-level or split queueing straties with multiple mqueue directories. For multi-level queues, start with Paul Pomes' re-mqueue program posted to comp.mail.sendmail last year (might be on some old news archives). Alternatively, on one of the pages in the book _sendmail_ by Bryan Costales, there is a shell script for finding messages with certain recipient strings in the addresses, and it should be relatively easily modified to handle searching for messages older than a certain age, and therefore candidates for mv'ing to another mqueue that gets processed more slowly. Be careful to ensure that the queue periodicity for your multi-level queues is such that they never get in sync and you get hundreds of copies of sendmail all firing up simultaneously. If they're all set to prime numbers, then if they ever do get in sync, on the very next run-through they'll de-synchronize themselves. You might also want to investigate using sendmail 8.7.5 and making use of it's QueueSortOrder=host option. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 05:07:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA19445 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 05:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA19438 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 05:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curie.bcc.louisville.edu (jad@curie.bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.23]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA22089 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 08:03:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:03:37 -0400 (EDT) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Email and lists... In-Reply-To: <199605222049.QAA15713@bcc.louisville.edu> Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 22 May 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > The largest number of LISTSERV lists on a single machine is 3,561 (our 3,561! Wow... > To a large extent, people who make new mailing list purchases today tend > to base their decisions on manpower costs rather than resource usage. . . . > people who have two systems to look at when a problem is reported, > chances are that they'll get the RAM and use the same machine. Well... The machine this probably would run on would start out as a two CPU high integer performance IBM AIX machine with capability to go to ten processors. Memory would probably start at 128M or 256M. After that, upgrading could happen if necessary. How's that? 8) With this much horsepower doing only mail routing and listserving, is this a moot point? Jason + Jason A. Dour jad@bcc.louisville.edu + | Programmer Analyst II http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ | | Dept. of Radiation Oncology Finger for Geek Code, PGP Public Key,| + University of Louisville PJ Harvey info, and other stuff... + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMaRUG5o1JaC71RLxAQGSggP/bNnj6hEjUu+WwPZfAJN0tCDwg+KexW2T kpTi3x9l1mhekSx5wQNhA/J2WqutKd3qLq0AW3Sbbv0lZc+e6PY4gsT9vNJ7Sixp 5+D0GldZs+Q+Bx2niaQeqtIXF7W5iy/alkbpLqzRMI9JdhF3LtbaXoDzujfUYm2W L0oesyRvtHA= =1/tc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 15:49:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA14949 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id PAA14881 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:08:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605232208.PAA14881@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA13644 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 06:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605221349.GAA13644@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 4530; Wed, 22 May 96 15:46:48 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 2412; Wed, 22 May 1996 15:46:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:40:40 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Standard sign-on, sign-of, etc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 May 1996 09:21:38 -0400 (EDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM This has already been discussed and re-discussed and re-re-discussed. The bottom line is that in 4 weeks it will have been 10 years that the syntaxes of SUBSCRIBE and SIGNOFF were established, this is the syntax users are used to and read about in Internet books, most packages support it, and packages that don't can be trivially modified to support it. The main issue is where you send the command, and this is where the flaming just goes on and on. LISTSERV supports listname-server as a product independent method to refer to the MLM in charge of the list in question (which is also useful when you run multiple MLMs on the same machine). Others have proposed 'listmaster' and yet others have pointed out that this is usually the address of the human who manages the list. To a large extent, this is something for the authors of the main packages to decide, and/or for their respective constituencies to lobby for. This isn't something for an ad hoc group to attempt to regulate. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 15:53:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16512 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA16462 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.187.167.52] (ddt.slip.netcom.com [192.187.167.52]) by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199605230913.CAA19338@netcomsv.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Digital X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1996 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:38:39 -0700 To: postmaster@glas.apc.org From: Dave Del Torto Subject: SPAM ALERT (was: Re: Will Rogers said...) Cc: bseioling@glas.apc.org Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List Managers: spam alert! Watch out for this guy. Let's zap him at the daemon level. Calling all postmasters... weasel alert. ................................. cut here ................................. >Return-Path: >Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (netcomsv.netcom.com [192.100.81.101]) >by mail5 (8.6.13/Netcom) > id CAA17793; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:13:13 -0700 >Received: from Jemco USA by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) > id CAA19338; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:13:12 -0700 >Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 02:13:12 -0700 >Message-Id: <199605230913.CAA19338@netcomsv.netcom.com> >To: Dave Del Torto >From: >Reply-to: bseioling@glas.apc.org >Subject: Will Rogers said... > >http://chancellor.stockpick.com > >Will Rogers said, "Don't gamble; take all your savings and buy some good >stock and hold it till it goes up, then sell it. If it don't go up, don't >buy it." > >With the Stock Market, hitting all-time highs, are there any investment >opportunities remaining? The name of the game is finding undervalued >situations. Checkout Chancellor Capital, Inc. at; > >http://chancellor.stockpick.com > >To terminate from the Internet Investment Opportunities Portfolio, Reply to >bseioling@glas.apc.org with "remove" in the subject field. > >Warren Sterling III From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 15:57:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16085 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id PAA16032 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605232219.PAA16032@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA07533 for ; Thu, 23 May 1996 01:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 12; Thu, 23 May 1996 01:19:28 PDT Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 01:19:25 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brad@his.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A2BCE.588455D4.12@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact > From: MX%"brad@his.com" 22-MAY-1996 23:17:58.53 > Subj: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact > At 9:29 PM -0700 5/21/96, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > Well, this is is totally bogus - even lists that generate an: > > "Errots-To:" header? I've not had a problem with Compuserve flooding my > > lists since I've used a mailer that generates these headers, otherwise > > I'd have serious doubts about even letting someone subscribe from these > > addresses. > > Errors-to: has been deprecated for some time now. I think it's > only a matter of time before it goes the way of return-reciept-to:, > and I'll be very glad when it's gone. It's certainly easy enough to > ignore even today. > I'll be glad when "Return-Receipt-To:" goes away as well - I get quite a few notifications of delivered mail from my lists. It lost it's charm quite a few months ago... > The problem is that everyone has written their own SMTP listener > program, because having a custom local mailer that gets fork & > exec'ed by sendmail is just not efficient enough, on top of the fact > that it introduces some unavoidable delay due to local queueing while > processing the message. However, they all seem to have forgotten > about the envelope sender being the address to which they should send > bounces. I doubt that will be a problem at AOL, though. > > > I don't suppose that there is a chance in Hell of getting CIS to > > recant this flawsed decision... > > Not if it's for performance reasons, you won't. Connect to their > port 25 and see what they identify themselves as. Do a HELP and see > what info you get there. > I see your point here - smap - yikes. > Now, you might convince them to fix their broken code, lest you > and many others do the same thing that a previous poster did -- > unsubscribe all CompuServe users from the list because of the > improper behaviour of the mailer. > > -- > Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com > comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer > finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code > The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at > > -HWM From list-managers-owner Thu May 23 16:00:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16083 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id PAA15997 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michael C. Berch" Message-Id: <199605232219.PAA15997@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA00124 for ; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id XAA02152; Wed, 22 May 1996 23:13:03 -0700 Received: from mail.his.com(205.177.25.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002132; Wed May 22 23:12:35 1996 Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA11780; Thu, 23 May 1996 02:16:55 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <009A2AE5.0CD13F38.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:25:48 -0400 To: "Henry W. Miller" , brozen@netvoyage.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Help! Compuserve Contact Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov At 9:29 PM -0700 5/21/96, Henry W. Miller wrote: > Well, this is is totally bogus - even lists that generate an: > "Errots-To:" header? I've not had a problem with Compuserve flooding my > lists since I've used a mailer that generates these headers, otherwise > I'd have serious doubts about even letting someone subscribe from these > addresses. Errors-to: has been deprecated for some time now. I think it's only a matter of time before it goes the way of return-reciept-to:, and I'll be very glad when it's gone. It's certainly easy enough to ignore even today. The problem is that everyone has written their own SMTP listener program, because having a custom local mailer that gets fork & exec'ed by sendmail is just not efficient enough, on top of the fact that it introduces some unavoidable delay due to local queueing while processing the message. However, they all seem to have forgotten about the envelope sender being the address to which they should send bounces. I doubt that will be a problem at AOL, though. > I don't suppose that there is a chance in Hell of getting CIS to > recant this flawsed decision... Not if it's for performance reasons, you won't. Connect to their port 25 and see what they identify themselves as. Do a HELP and see what info you get there. Now, you might convince them to fix their broken code, lest you and many others do the same thing that a previous poster did -- unsubscribe all CompuServe users from the list because of the improper behaviour of the mailer. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 04:07:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA22728 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id DAA22677 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 03:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199605241056.DAA22677@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 2072; Fri, 24 May 1996 12:53:38 +0200 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:40:57 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Email and lists... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 23 May 1996 08:03:37 -0400 (EDT) from Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 23 May 1996 08:03:37 -0400 (EDT) "Jason A. Dour" said: > Well... The machine this probably would run on would start out >as a two CPU high integer performance IBM AIX machine with capability to >go to ten processors. Memory would probably start at 128M or 256M. After >that, upgrading could happen if necessary. How's that? 8) With this much >horsepower doing only mail routing and listserving, is this a moot >point? LISTSERV will only take a few percent of the system unless you have a really old machine. The real issue is mail delivery, and if you're using sendmail it is mostly limited by the amount of RAM in the box. Adding CPUs doesn't usually help, again with current systems. Even with a RS/6000-250 you can do some 150k average daily deliveries and have unused cycles. You probably want to choose hardware for which RAM is cheap, and avoid systems where you pay a premium for high-speed memory modules with state of the art caches that scale up to many processors that you'll never install. If this is going to replace ULKYVM, your daily average is currently 65k deliveries and a RS/6000-250 (or whatever the 1996 version is called) would be just fine. 64M might be enough initially but I'd start with 128M and two 7200rpm drives. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 09:39:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA23286 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA23245 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 09:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from virginia.edu by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP Received: by mail.virginia.edu id aa20310; 24 May 96 12:27 EDT Received: from curry.edschool.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa03373; Received: (from aace@localhost) by curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) id GAA24937; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:44:47 -0400 From: Assoc Advancement Computers Education Message-Id: <199605241044.GAA24937@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU> Subject: WebNet-96 Final CFP (San Francisco) To: AACE Date: Fri, 24 May 96 6:44:46 EDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3.1 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Final Call for Presentations: > Business/Corporate Sessions > Short Papers > Poster/Demonstrations ** Submission Deadline July 8, 1996 ** +*************************************************************+ * * * W e b N e t - 9 6 * * * * WORLD CONFERENCE OF THE WEB SOCIETY * * * * * * Oct. 16-19, 1996 * San Francisco, CA USA * * * * FINAL CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS * * * * Submission Deadline: July 8, 1996 * * * * Sponsored by * * Web Society and AACE-- * * Association for the Advancement of Computing in Education * +*************************************************************+ ---------- INVITATION ---------- WebNet-96 -- the first World Conference of the Web Society is an international conference, organized by the Association for the Advancement of Computing in Education (AACE). This annual conference serves as a multi-disciplinary forum for the dissemination of information on the research, development, and applications on all topics related to the use, applications and societal and legal aspects of the Web in its broadest sense, i.e. encompassing all modern tools to peruse the Internet. This conference is a must for all who plan to use the Internet for informational, communicational or transactional applications or, who are currently running or planning to run servers on the Internet. We invite you to attend the WebNet-96 conference and submit proposals for Business/Corporate sessions, Short Papers, and Posters/Demonstrations. All proposals are reviewed for inclusion in the conference program. This final call is offered for participants who were unable to meet the first deadline for submissions or were not prepared to present a finished paper or project. PROGRAM ACTIVITIES ------------------ * Keynote Speakers * Invited Speakers * Short Papers * Papers * Panels * Posters/Demonstrations * Exhibits * Workshops * Tutorials * SIG Discussions * Exhibition * Business/Corporate Sessions Major Topics ------------ Novel Applications of the Web Collaboration Using the Web The Web as Teaching Tool Electronic Publishing and the Web The Web as Marketing Tool Offering Services on the Web New Server Technologies for the Web New Navigational Tools for the Web Integration of Web Applications and Services Country Specific Developments The Web and Distance Education Net-based Multimedia/Hypermedia Systems Computer-Human Interface (CHI) Issues New Graphic Interfaces for the Web The Web and 3D Virtual Reality on the Web Intelligent Agents on the Web Directory Services on the Web Network Software for Large Data Bases Security and Privacy on the Web Charging Mechanisms for the Web Legal and Societal Aspects of the Web Courseware Development for the Web Building Knowledge Bases on the Web Care and Feeding of Web Servers Educational Multimedia on the Web Browsers, Searchers and Other Tools Feedback Mechanisms on the Web Information for Presenters -------------------------- Details of presentation formats are given on the following pages. The general principles applying to all are: o All communication will be with the principal presenter who is responsible for communicating with co-presenters of that session. o The conference will attempt to secure all equipment needed for presenters. However, where special equipment is needed, presenters may need to provide their own. o All presenters must pay the registration fee. Early registration fee will be approximately $350 (US) with a $30 (US) reduction for Web Society members. ---------------------- Submission Information ---------------------- Presentation Types ------------------ Business/Corporate Sessions (30 minutes) --------------------------------------- These sessions offer opportunities to present issues, developments, and applications on training, marketing, publishing, product direction, and other business/corporate aspects of the Internet. A basic set of equipment will be provided. Please indicate needs. Short Papers (15 minutes) ------------------------- Short Papers present reports of research, development, and applications and societal issues related to all aspects of the Internet. A basic set of equipment will be provided. Please indicate needs. Posters/Demonstrations (2 hours) ------------------------------- Poster/Demonstration sessions enable researchers and non-commercial developers to demonstrate and discuss their latest results and development in progress in order to gain feedback and to establish contact with similar projects. These sessions do not involve a formal presentation. Poster/Demonstration presenters will be required to arrange for their own systems software and hardware. Rental information can be provided. A table, chairs, poster board, and electricity will be furnished by the conference. Submission Procedure -------------------- To be considered for a WebNet 96 presentation, submit a 1-3 page abstract or description of your presentation via e-mail, fax, or regular mail (see below). Electronic proposals in the form of URL addresses or ASCII files (uncoded) are preferred. Submissions with figures should be sent as either URL addresses or printed pages. SUBMISSIONS DUE: ** July 8, 1996 ** Your proposal will be reviewed and, if accepted, you will be scheduled for either Business/Corporate session, Short Paper presentation, or Poster/Demonstration (please indicate preference) which will be included in the WebNet 96 Final Program. This later deadline does not allow for papers to appear in the conference proceedings; presenters may wish to provide copies for their audience. All submissions should include: > 1-3 page description of planned presentation. > Cover page must include: - title of presentation - presentation type: business/corporate, short paper, or poster/demo - name, affiliation, address, phone nos., and e-mail for each author - name of designated contact presenter - topic area selected from the topics above - if business/corporate or short paper, AV equipment requested Conference Background --------------------- WebNet is the annual conference of the WebSociety that was founded in 1995 out of a concern that an organization addressing the application aspects of the Web and representing a lobby for Web users independent of specific platforms and without the domination of commercial organizations was needed. The WebSociety complements existing other bodies such as the Internet Society and W3C. The former is, by definition, more concerned with providing global Internet services than anything else and the latter is specifically oriented towards one particular system WWW. The Web Society and hence WebNet takes a more general view, dealing with a variety of modern Internet tools and their integration including services such as Gopher, WWW, Hyper-G, WAIS, directory services, FTP, email and cooperative applications and novel approaches from Hot Java to VRML, from Web compatible teaching modules to 3D interfaces. For more details on the Web Society, see http://info.WebSoc.org O / O / -------------- x ---------- Cut Here ---------- x ------------------- o \ o \ ------------------- INFORMATION REQUEST ------------------- To receive future WebNet-96 announcements, please complete this form and return to the address below. Name: _________________________________________________________ Address: ______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ City/State/Code: ______________________________________________ Country: ______________________________________________________ E-Mail: _______________________________________________________ Phone: ________________________________________________________ Please send me: __ WebNet-96 Conference registration material __ Conference proceedings ordering information __ Exhibitor booth order information __ Brochure on the Web Society __ Brochure on Association for the Adv. of Computing in Ed. (AACE) __ Other information (please specify) _____________________________ Return to: WebNet-96/AACE P.O. Box 2966 Charlottesville, VA 22902 USA E-mail: AACE@virginia.edu; http://aace.virginia.edu/aace Voice: 804-973-3987; Fax: 804-978-7449 ===================================================================== From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 09:52:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA23230 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 09:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA23200 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 09:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from mars.itc.virginia.edu(128.143.2.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: by mail.virginia.edu id aa20310; 24 May 96 12:27 EDT Received: from curry.edschool.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa03373; Received: (from aace@localhost) by curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (8.7.1/8.6.6) id GAA24937; Fri, 24 May 1996 06:44:47 -0400 From: Assoc Advancement Computers Education Message-Id: <199605241044.GAA24937@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU> Subject: WebNet-96 Final CFP (San Francisco) To: AACE Date: Fri, 24 May 96 6:44:46 EDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3.1 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Final Call for Presentations: > Business/Corporate Sessions > Short Papers > Poster/Demonstrations ** Submission Deadline July 8, 1996 ** +*************************************************************+ * * * W e b N e t - 9 6 * * * * WORLD CONFERENCE OF THE WEB SOCIETY * * * * * * Oct. 16-19, 1996 * San Francisco, CA USA * * * * FINAL CALL FOR PRESENTATIONS * * * * Submission Deadline: July 8, 1996 * * * * Sponsored by * * Web Society and AACE-- * * Association for the Advancement of Computing in Education * +*************************************************************+ ---------- INVITATION ---------- WebNet-96 -- the first World Conference of the Web Society is an international conference, organized by the Association for the Advancement of Computing in Education (AACE). This annual conference serves as a multi-disciplinary forum for the dissemination of information on the research, development, and applications on all topics related to the use, applications and societal and legal aspects of the Web in its broadest sense, i.e. encompassing all modern tools to peruse the Internet. This conference is a must for all who plan to use the Internet for informational, communicational or transactional applications or, who are currently running or planning to run servers on the Internet. We invite you to attend the WebNet-96 conference and submit proposals for Business/Corporate sessions, Short Papers, and Posters/Demonstrations. All proposals are reviewed for inclusion in the conference program. This final call is offered for participants who were unable to meet the first deadline for submissions or were not prepared to present a finished paper or project. PROGRAM ACTIVITIES ------------------ * Keynote Speakers * Invited Speakers * Short Papers * Papers * Panels * Posters/Demonstrations * Exhibits * Workshops * Tutorials * SIG Discussions * Exhibition * Business/Corporate Sessions Major Topics ------------ Novel Applications of the Web Collaboration Using the Web The Web as Teaching Tool Electronic Publishing and the Web The Web as Marketing Tool Offering Services on the Web New Server Technologies for the Web New Navigational Tools for the Web Integration of Web Applications and Services Country Specific Developments The Web and Distance Education Net-based Multimedia/Hypermedia Systems Computer-Human Interface (CHI) Issues New Graphic Interfaces for the Web The Web and 3D Virtual Reality on the Web Intelligent Agents on the Web Directory Services on the Web Network Software for Large Data Bases Security and Privacy on the Web Charging Mechanisms for the Web Legal and Societal Aspects of the Web Courseware Development for the Web Building Knowledge Bases on the Web Care and Feeding of Web Servers Educational Multimedia on the Web Browsers, Searchers and Other Tools Feedback Mechanisms on the Web Information for Presenters -------------------------- Details of presentation formats are given on the following pages. The general principles applying to all are: o All communication will be with the principal presenter who is responsible for communicating with co-presenters of that session. o The conference will attempt to secure all equipment needed for presenters. However, where special equipment is needed, presenters may need to provide their own. o All presenters must pay the registration fee. Early registration fee will be approximately $350 (US) with a $30 (US) reduction for Web Society members. ---------------------- Submission Information ---------------------- Presentation Types ------------------ Business/Corporate Sessions (30 minutes) --------------------------------------- These sessions offer opportunities to present issues, developments, and applications on training, marketing, publishing, product direction, and other business/corporate aspects of the Internet. A basic set of equipment will be provided. Please indicate needs. Short Papers (15 minutes) ------------------------- Short Papers present reports of research, development, and applications and societal issues related to all aspects of the Internet. A basic set of equipment will be provided. Please indicate needs. Posters/Demonstrations (2 hours) ------------------------------- Poster/Demonstration sessions enable researchers and non-commercial developers to demonstrate and discuss their latest results and development in progress in order to gain feedback and to establish contact with similar projects. These sessions do not involve a formal presentation. Poster/Demonstration presenters will be required to arrange for their own systems software and hardware. Rental information can be provided. A table, chairs, poster board, and electricity will be furnished by the conference. Submission Procedure -------------------- To be considered for a WebNet 96 presentation, submit a 1-3 page abstract or description of your presentation via e-mail, fax, or regular mail (see below). Electronic proposals in the form of URL addresses or ASCII files (uncoded) are preferred. Submissions with figures should be sent as either URL addresses or printed pages. SUBMISSIONS DUE: ** July 8, 1996 ** Your proposal will be reviewed and, if accepted, you will be scheduled for either Business/Corporate session, Short Paper presentation, or Poster/Demonstration (please indicate preference) which will be included in the WebNet 96 Final Program. This later deadline does not allow for papers to appear in the conference proceedings; presenters may wish to provide copies for their audience. All submissions should include: > 1-3 page description of planned presentation. > Cover page must include: - title of presentation - presentation type: business/corporate, short paper, or poster/demo - name, affiliation, address, phone nos., and e-mail for each author - name of designated contact presenter - topic area selected from the topics above - if business/corporate or short paper, AV equipment requested Conference Background --------------------- WebNet is the annual conference of the WebSociety that was founded in 1995 out of a concern that an organization addressing the application aspects of the Web and representing a lobby for Web users independent of specific platforms and without the domination of commercial organizations was needed. The WebSociety complements existing other bodies such as the Internet Society and W3C. The former is, by definition, more concerned with providing global Internet services than anything else and the latter is specifically oriented towards one particular system WWW. The Web Society and hence WebNet takes a more general view, dealing with a variety of modern Internet tools and their integration including services such as Gopher, WWW, Hyper-G, WAIS, directory services, FTP, email and cooperative applications and novel approaches from Hot Java to VRML, from Web compatible teaching modules to 3D interfaces. For more details on the Web Society, see http://info.WebSoc.org O / O / -------------- x ---------- Cut Here ---------- x ------------------- o \ o \ ------------------- INFORMATION REQUEST ------------------- To receive future WebNet-96 announcements, please complete this form and return to the address below. Name: _________________________________________________________ Address: ______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________ City/State/Code: ______________________________________________ Country: ______________________________________________________ E-Mail: _______________________________________________________ Phone: ________________________________________________________ Please send me: __ WebNet-96 Conference registration material __ Conference proceedings ordering information __ Exhibitor booth order information __ Brochure on the Web Society __ Brochure on Association for the Adv. of Computing in Ed. (AACE) __ Other information (please specify) _____________________________ Return to: WebNet-96/AACE P.O. Box 2966 Charlottesville, VA 22902 USA E-mail: AACE@virginia.edu; http://aace.virginia.edu/aace Voice: 804-973-3987; Fax: 804-978-7449 ===================================================================== From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 10:37:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA00574 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asylum.apocalypse.org (asylum.sf.ca.us [192.48.232.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA00544 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jailbait@localhost) by asylum.apocalypse.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA28749 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 24 May 1996 13:31:42 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:31:42 -0400 From: Jailbait Message-Id: <199605241731.NAA28749@asylum.apocalypse.org> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Timeout settings? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With more and more members of my lists shifting to home machines without 24hour net connections, the number of Mailer-Daemon messages I'm getting telling me of the passing of a (4, 5, 6) hour timeout and not to worry, as delivery attempts will keep up for (5-14) days. I'd say that 99+% of these messages never generate the final bounce, as the destination machine is reconnected and the mail is delivered. So...I was wondering, what do you folks find useful as a good timeout on your local systems, and what would you suggest saying to someone whose system is erroring for a system they're holding mail for? Thanks, JB From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 11:07:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA02192 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA02169 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA17385; Fri, 24 May 1996 10:54:05 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9605241754.AA06028@siesta> Subject: Re: Timeout settings? To: jailbait@apocalypse.org (Jailbait) Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 10:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199605241731.NAA28749@asylum.apocalypse.org> from "Jailbait" at May 24, 96 01:31:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jailbait writes: > > With more and more members of my lists shifting to home machines without > 24hour net connections, the number of Mailer-Daemon messages I'm getting > telling me of the passing of a (4, 5, 6) hour timeout and not to worry, as > delivery attempts will keep up for (5-14) days. Any site that isn't permanently connected should have another system that is up all the time as it's MX (Mail eXchanger). Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International From list-managers-owner Fri May 24 12:07:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09864 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 May 1996 12:07:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA09857 for ; Fri, 24 May 1996 12:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) Message-Id: <9605241900.AA20264@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Jailbait Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Timeout settings? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 May 96 13:31:42 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:00:56 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >what would you suggest saying to someone whose >system is erroring for a system they're holding mail for? I'd tell them to either a) DON'T DO THIS! or b) if you insist on doing it, look at the Precedence: header and don't do it for bulk. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Sat May 25 08:37:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA24808 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA24800 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 08:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19611 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 16:18:45 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 16:19:07 BST Reply-To: nigel@diversity.org.uk X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@diversity.org.uk Subject: Off list spats Message-ID: <9605251619.aa02720@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know this has come up recently here, but I don't have the mail to hand. We've just had a very acrimonious dispute on uk-motss (one party has actually left the list and created a web page to tell the world how evil I am). It appears to have its roots in a discussion that got out of hand. One member sent a private, not terribly polite message to another. The recipient posted it to the list. Things, as I'm sure people can imagine, have gone downhill from there. There is wrong on both sides, and I can see the argument for 'exposing hypocrisy' if someone presents one persona on the list, but a different one in private mail. But even so, posting private messages to the list always, without fail, results in the usual round of comments and escalation, so I'm not prepared to allow it. I think this is reasonable - there are other ways to expose someone as a hypocrite, if you really must. I've been accused, however, of allowing people to 'hide behind netiquette' and abuse the list, by keeping their strong words in private e-mail, and of sheltering people (on the basis of race and sexual favours, apparently!) by not taking action against them for their private e-mail to other list members. What's the best solution here? I've taken the stand that I don't condone people sending abusive mail in any circumstances. But if people are going to post gross generalisations or material that may be offensive, they may well receive private mail - many people on the list have spend years fighting prejudice, and will challenge it if it's posted in public. I utterly condemn people sending offensive mail just because of who people are - for instance, one list member was sent abuse because he revealed he was in the military as a gay man. I don't feel that I can do more than that. I try very hard to remain impartial, and though I can see why some people want me to take up issues where I know one list member is sending another rude messages in private, I don't see how I can evaluate it on any basis other than the word of one against another. I've said as much in public, and told people that if they do send me tales of this sort of thing happening, I might note it, but I certainly won't be getting involved. As far as I know, all the subscribers are adults, and they should be able to conduct their disputes without my involvement. Can I do any more? One suggestion is that I make it clear in the guidelines that sending abusive private messages to other people is out of order, but to me that seems like saying "If you join uk-motss, you have to accept some jurisdiction of the list manager over your private actions" which looks pretty unacceptable to me. If things are off-list, I'd like to keep them out of my hair too, but my attempts to do that so far have resulted in a web page that's frankly libellous. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Sat May 25 10:11:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA28554 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA28539 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 10:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA19866 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 17:50:41 +0100 (BST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk by fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk id aa03259; Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA21409 Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA21400 Received: from mailhost.worldnet.att.net(204.127.129.3) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) Received: by mailhost.worldnet.att.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) Received: from 131.san-francisco-1.ca.dial-access.att.net(165.238.4.131) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960525165041.00c053b8@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> X-Sender: jfh@postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 09:50:41 -0700 To: nigel@diversity.org.uk, list-managers@diversity.org.uk From: Jack Hamilton Subject: Re: Off list spats Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:19 PM 5/25/96 +0000, Nigel Whitfield wrote: >We've just had a very acrimonious dispute on uk-motss (one party has >actually left the list and created a web page to tell the world how >evil I am). Aren't you going to give us the URL? I'd like to see whether your readers are more abusive than ours, nyaah, nyahh, nyahh. -------------------------- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org co-moderator, sci.med.aids From list-managers-owner Sat May 25 11:37:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00754 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA00727 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 11:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA01112 ; for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 14:21:44 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199605251821.OAA01112@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Off list spats To: nigel@diversity.org.uk Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 14:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9605251619.aa02720@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> from "Nigel Whitfield" at May 25, 96 04:19:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nigel, 1. Participation in an email list creates a sense of group membership among the participants. All in all, this is a good thing. It makes email groups more civil than NetNews, on the whole. 2. The list administrator has some enforcement functions. Other than invective shared over the list or off the list, the only real enforcement capability is in the hands of the person with kill [subscription] privileges. 3. Too many of the subscribers to list-managers think that they own "their" lists. A more positive deal is that the participant group has some minimal level of self-organization and the list manager functions more nearly as trustee than as autocrat. I would actually suggest that you solicit your mailing list to see what the level of interest would be in forming a bylaws committee that would formalize the mutual responsibilities of list participants and the distinguished role of the list manager as a contract validated both by group and manager. I think that you need to involve the group in creating a common understanding of the difference between group norms (to which they are entitled, but for which they have to accept responsibility) and your role as steward of the MLM. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sat May 25 15:37:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA07561 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 May 1996 15:36:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA07554 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 15:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (bonkers.neosoft.com [198.65.175.69]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA24987 for ; Sat, 25 May 1996 17:33:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA26934 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 25 May 1996 17:29:07 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199605252229.RAA26934@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Off list spats To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 17:29:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al Gilman: > 3. Too many of the subscribers to list-managers think that they > own "their" lists. You mean they don't? One thing that bothered me about my latest list, when I set it up, people started spouting list policy and "it's like this" when it actually wasn't. Took me a while to get through to them that I was the one that called the shots. Not to say that they don't have any influence or input, they do. But they don't do the actual running of the list, I do. If someone wants to run their lists where they have minimal participation, that's fine. But that's not how I run my lists. I don't think I should be criticized for it either, and certainly not on list-managers. From list-managers-owner Sun May 26 02:52:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA28845 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA28834 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 02:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA25036 for ; Sun, 26 May 1996 10:35:00 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Off list spats Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 09:33:17 GMT Message-ID: References: <199605251821.OAA01112@access2.digex.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199605251821.OAA01112@access2.digex.net>, Al Gilman wrote: > >3. Too many of the subscribers to list-managers think that they >own "their" lists. A lot of people do. In my case, over 1,000 pounds per year is spent out of my own pocket to keep the list running. >A more positive deal is that the participant >group has some minimal level of self-organization and the >list manager functions more nearly as trustee than as autocrat. Well, that's what I attempt to do... >I would actually suggest that you solicit your mailing list to >see what the level of interest would be in forming a bylaws >committee that would formalize the mutual responsibilities of >list participants and the distinguished role of the list manager >as a contract validated both by group and manager. The current guidelines have been modified over time, and presented to the group for discussion on a number of occassions. One the very rare (twice in six years) times that someone has been removed from the list, that's only been after requests from a significant proportion of the membership, some of whom felt I should have acted quickly and unilaterally. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk