From list-managers-owner Sun Jun 2 08:33:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA13821 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA13814 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20852 ; for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:29:06 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606021529.LAA20852@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? To: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, listelves@sig.net In-Reply-To: <199605292057.OAA05936@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at May 29, 96 02:57:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Lazlo Nibble" I'm looking for software that handles all of the following: * Maintains web-based archives of Internet-style mailing lists; * Allows users of the web pages to post to the lists; * Ideally allows people to "sign in" to the web pages and only be presented with messages that have been added since they last logged on. Does anything like this exist? I'm trying to coordinate a move away from CIS to the Internet, but simply cutting CIS forums over to Internet mailing lists makes things a little too complicated. On lynx-dev we are currently running with Hypermail 1.02 and we like it enought so that we are contemplating hacking it until we get a mode * Maintains web-based archives of Internet-style mailing lists; This much works good. * Allows users of the web pages to post to the lists; Presently, we allow open posting, so that a random visitor can reply. As list-managers well know this is spam-vulnerable but we are risking it for now. Better later. The key missing link is the threading of replies so originated. I have demonstrated that it can be done, but the necessary steps are highly tedious. We have hopes of modifying the archiver to autogenerate a "reply" mailto: url that gets the job done. Some of this is keyed to using the X-URL: header generated which is a functional synonym of a Referrer: header as used in HTTP. the archiver doesn't presently understand and reply to that header, but Lynx and Netscape generate usable headers for threading purposes and it's a SMOP to get Hypermail to do the right thing. * Ideally allows people to "sign in" to the web pages and only be presented with messages that have been added since they last logged on. Lynx does not maintain history, and we are oriented to lynx users. But I would still argue that this information should be saved at the client side of the dialog and not at the server. A simple operational procedure that gets you 85% of this functionality as is with little more user burden than a sign-on transaction is that the user bookmarks the most recent message in the archive when he/she visits, and then uses that bookmark as the entry point for re-visiting the site. On return the user navigates from this old post to the by-date index. The Hypermail links include the intelligence to take you to the citation of this post in the by-date listing, which clearly isolates more recent messages from those in the archive when you last visited. Very interested in anything you learn/do, Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sun Jun 2 14:18:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25080 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA25072 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 17:01:46 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MILNET Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9606021701.aa03579@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brock Rozen: >On Fri, 31 May 1996, Chris Farris wrote: >> > Feedback from PSI Network Support indicates that MILNET no longer exists, >> > and that individual sites and units are supposedly now responsible for >> > their own connectivity... what you see below could be a manifestation >> > of problems during the transition. >> >> Well looking at my queue only a few .mil addresses were delived at all >> this week. Is anyone else having this problem? It my probelm my ISP >> (PSINet) routing? Any ideas? > >Well, I had a discussion with the administrator of a .mil site about two >months ago. It does seem that each site is responsible for it's own >support, as he was asking *me* questions and for help. I was wondering why >he hadn't asked other sites. > >I just checked out the mil nic's site. They do seem to provide support and >other services to keep milnet going. I would suggest going to >http://nic.ddn.mil and asking them for help if you're experiencing >problems. Don't bother. All that nic.ddn.mil does is provide registry services (in the same fashion that the InterNIC does for .gov, .com, .org and .edu). THIS "milnet" site is still up 'n running! Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 3 07:18:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA19820 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grover.inherent.com ([207.49.1.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA19806 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparky.inherent.com (sparky.abanet.org [207.49.1.3]) by grover.inherent.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA00926; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:08:23 -0700 Received: from sparky (localhost) by sparky.inherent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Message-Id: <9606031407.AA05411@sparky.inherent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: Al Gilman Cc: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 1996 11:29:04 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 07:07:58 -0700 From: Jeff Heinen Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Altho HyperMail seems to be working for you, ( I never could make it work well for me.. Hmm ). I would go take a look at HyperNews, its the same basic idea, but starting from the web based direction and is recently started accepting email replies ( were as before it just sent out notification messages when a new message arrived ). I am hoping it will becomming very stable in the next few weeks so I can start showing it off to some clients. To see how they like it. -Jeff -- ___________________________________ Jeff Heinen jeffh@inherent.com Systems Administration Network Operations Center | Tel.: 503-224-6751 Inherent Technologies, Inc. | Fax: 503-224-9273 2110 SW Jefferson St. 3rd Floor | sysadmin@inherent.com Portland, Oregon USA 97201 | http://www.inherent.com From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 3 08:19:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23752 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from night.primate.wisc.edu (night.primate.wisc.edu [144.92.43.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA23732 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by night.primate.wisc.edu; From: Software Development Message-Id: <199606031513.KAA11156@night.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:13:54 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9606031407.AA05411@sparky.inherent.com> from "Jeff Heinen" at Jun 3, 96 07:07:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Altho HyperMail seems to be working for you, ( I never could make it work > well for me.. Hmm ). I would go take a look at HyperNews, its the > same basic idea, but starting from the web based direction and is > recently started accepting email replies ( were as before it just sent > out notification messages when a new message arrived ). I am > hoping it will becomming very stable in the next few weeks so I can > start showing it off to some clients. To see how they like it. I recently made some hypermail 1.02 patches available at http://www.primate.wisc.edu/software/web-tools. They fixed the problems I had with hypermail. If anyone has other patches that they've made, I'd be interested in seeing them, and incorporating them. I like the package after it's fixed, but unfortunately its author doesn't seem to reply to mail sent about it. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 11:36:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27744 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vger.Tripcom.COM (vger.Tripcom.COM [207.70.68.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA27734 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Users replying to owner-listname To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:07:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". 1. I think my headers are correct. Are they? 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the problem... what have other listmanagers done? Should I change the "From" address to apease the MS Mail users? Can't this cause a potential mail bouncing problem? 4. Should I dump my very stable and solid Majordomo in favor of a different program? Many thanks in advance! From Owner-TestList Tue Jun 4 12:30:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM id MAA27719; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM id MAA27709 for testlist@Tripcom.COM; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:13 -0500 (CD T) From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606041730.MAA27709@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Test Message To: testlist@Tripcom.COM Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Owner-TestList@Tripcom.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TestList@Tripcom.COM This is a test. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 11:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA03120 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA03095 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Message-Id: <199606041841.LAA22676@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:41:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Horwitz wrote: > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". > Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". You should insist that they "fix" their mail programs to use the correct address. Your Reply-To is correctly set, and it's not your fault that their mail program is broken. If you get more nonsense like this, start quoting appropriate RFCs to 'em, or whatever. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 269,881st person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 12:20:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05384 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA05357 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:59:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IJV0JBHQ001IBT@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List-Managers: I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be configured to do this? Please reply direct... and thanks in advance. Paul S. Bentivegna Technology Coordinator Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer or its representatives. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 12:51:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09486 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA09456 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1391"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 16:30:26 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-reply-to: <199606041841.LAA22676@idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Jun To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9606041930.AA14302@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett writes: >> I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of >> "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". > >You should insist that they "fix" their mail programs to use the >correct address. Your Reply-To is correctly set, and it's not your >fault that their mail program is broken. > >If you get more nonsense like this, start quoting appropriate RFCs to >'em, or whatever. This really doesn't sound like a reasonable solution. Unless you are running a list for mail administrators, they are at the mercy of whoever set up their system, and the negligent incompetents who write these mail programs. Leaning on the victims doesn't help if they are not in a position to do anything about it. I generally try to educate subscribers about how the problems arise, but not punish them for someone else's mistakes. Sometimes a compromise is called for. I don't blame people for using Banyan Vines, but if their mail bounces they get deleted the first time with no grace period, because of the dangerous nature of Vines bounces. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 13:30:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA12645 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (arl-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com [149.174.211.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA12611 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (gatekeeper_1.latrade.com [199.120.237.18]) by Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29679.; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) Received: from localhost by turtle; (5.65/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1034AM) Message-Id: <9606041955.AA06315@turtle> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 96 14:59:03 EDT." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 15:55:09 -0400 From: Lew Gramer X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd also be interested in the answer to this - please post responses to the list! Also, having the ability to make the subscribe_policy 'auto', but with this feature in place for non-matching (munged) addresses would be ideal! Lew From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 13:35:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA12239 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (arl-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com [149.174.211.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA12228 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (gatekeeper_1.latrade.com [199.120.237.18]) by Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29554 Received: by gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) Received: from localhost by turtle; (5.65/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1034AM) Message-Id: <9606041952.AA06317@turtle> To: Adam Horwitz Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 96 13:07:02 CDT." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 15:52:06 -0400 From: Lew Gramer X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You're right (IMHO) about who's at fault. You might consider contacting MS and asking if this is fixed in a new or upcoming release: This should appease your MS-enslaved subscribers... Alternatively, you could suggest they get the (free) Eudora Light for Windows and replace that Gates-generated stuff altogether. :) Looks like MS Mail doesn't like the Sender field, rather than From: Sender: Owner-TestList@Tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 14:37:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22589 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA22582 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:21:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: RE: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IOVCVWUI001E8V@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID Wsk+h/PveEuu2b0PUnY1RQ)" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --Boundary (ID Wsk+h/PveEuu2b0PUnY1RQ)-- From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 14:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23083 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA23060 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:30:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: RE: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IP4B51NS001E8V@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One person wanted me to post this to the list: Thanks to those who responded to my question. :-) >> I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to >> the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This >> seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be >> configured to do this? > >The current development version of Majordomo (1.94alpha7) does this. Answer -----------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Subscribe to majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com to find out about it. > >And, why send this to list-managers instead of majordomo-(users|workers)? >list-managers is not for Majordomo questions. Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just LISTSERV list managers. Paul S. Bentivegna Technology Coordinator Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer or its representatives. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 15:06:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA26255 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA26243 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606042204.PAA26243@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7432; Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:01:37 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: note of 06/04/96 17:54 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: Confirmation Code Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV wrote: >Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just >LISTSERV list managers. Ummm, so did I. Did it change? Or was I misinformed? Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** This message has been Xenu-ized for your protection. **** From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 15:35:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA29535 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA29522 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15164; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606042228.RAA15164@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:01:37 EDT" References: <199606042204.PAA26243@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:28:29 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "j" == jcanterbury writes: j> BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV wrote: >> Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just >> LISTSERV list managers. j> Ummm, so did I. Did it change? Or was I misinformed? This is a list for the discussion of list management issues. If you want to talk about whether or not subscribe confirmation is a good idea, discuss it here. If you want to know how to make whatever software you run do subscribe confirmation, ask on the list that relates to whatever software you run. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 19:35:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA10864 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA10857 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606050221.TAA10857@miles.greatcircle.com> To: adam@Tripcom.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:18:47 EDT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". > > 1. I think my headers are correct. Are they? > 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" > is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? > 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the > problem... what have other listmanagers done? Should I change the > "From" address to apease the MS Mail users? Can't this cause a > potential mail bouncing problem? > 4. Should I dump my very stable and solid Majordomo in favor of > a different program? The problem is indeed in Microsoft Mail, but don't hold your breath waiting for a fix. Microsoft Exchange is supposed to be a lot more Internet-friendly, but it has some rough edges in that respect too. We have the same problem here as we have a lot of users on Microsoft Mail. The tack we took with LISTSERV is to use the Safe=No option, whuch causes the SMTP MAIL FROM (which is what MS Mail is using) to be set to the listname instead of owner-listname. This means that replys from MS Mail users go to the list by default. That's still not a complete solution, as MS Mail does not pay attention to Reply-to. It also means that bounce messages get sent to the list address. LISTSERV's filters do an excellent job of catching bounce messages, so it works quite well. But occasionally one slips through and starts a mail loop. That's why the option is called Safe=No. Speaking of rocks and hard places, there is an option in the MS Mail SMTP gateway to use the RFC 822 From address instead of the SMTP Mail From. Then replies go by default to the sender of the message. Unfortunately, bounce messages go there too, instead of to the list owner. Another thing to look at besides replacing the MS Mail SMTP gateway with the Exchange Internet Mail Connector is the various third party MS Mail gateways on the market. Some of them claim to be more Internet-friendly. There's only so much they can do though, as the fundamental problem is in MS Mail itself. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 4265 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, ULIST.NIH.GOV, WEB.NIH.GOV Postmaster From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 21:50:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA14801 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au ([203.111.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id VAA14605 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au; id OAA16198; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:20:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au(172.16.30.207) by nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au via smap (V3.1) Received: from pc100393.fisheries.nsw.gov.au (pc100393.fisheries.nsw.gov.au [172.16.30.74]) by dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA27907 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:27:49 +0800 Message-Id: <199606050627.OAA27907@dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Andrew Sedger" Organization: NSW Fisheries To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:20:43 +10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Introduction Reply-to: sedgera@fisheries.nsw.gov.au X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings list-managers, I have recently established a mailing list in Australia called fishnet-au. The list has been established to provide a forum of discussion about fisheries-related issues within Australia. The list is running on Majordomo software. Before I advertise the list widely throughout the country I want to be sure about any legal liabilities I may incur as the list-owner, or my employer may incur by supporting the list. If anybody knows anything about this issue, I would be very grateful to hear from you. Thanks in advance, Andrew -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Andrew Sedger Fisheries Management Officer NSW Fisheries, Australia List-Owner of Fishnet-au Ph - (02) 566 7873 Fax- (02) 552 6627 e-mail - sedgera@fisheries.nsw.gov.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 01:20:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA23344 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id BAA23302 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shoreside.com (shoreside.com [206.40.34.81]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA28104 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlick@localhost) by shoreside.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA03938; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailers appending complete replied text In-Reply-To: <199605310800.BAA18289@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My lists have implemented a filter for quite a while that for the most part enforces the list policy of not including more than relevant portions of a prior post. Every message on the list has a helpful trailer tacked on about what list it is from, how to unsubscribe, etc. If a post to the list is recieved with this trailer anywhere in it, the post is bounced back to the sender. This mechanism also functions to prevent many of the mail looping problems that have occurred. Thus, for the common case of a user not editing out anything, messages are rejected. If they make any effort at all to edit the message, they usually have the sense to cut it down to the relevant parts. The only noted side effect is that when people ask about how to unsubscribe, the replies that say "hey you #%^(ing blind bat, didn't you see this tag at the end of every #%*@ing message?" get rejected as well. So if you can put in a piece of known text into the body of all messages (in the headers doesn't help for includes), you can have your list filter (you DO have a list filter, right??) reject messages with this text in it. This alone will do wonders for cutting down on included text AND protect you from most mail loops. -- James Lick -- jlick@tcp.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 04:50:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA09169 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunams.usma.army.mil (sunams.usma.army.mil [129.29.199.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA09162 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1e6244.usma.edu ([129.29.133.54]) by sunams.usma.army.mil (4.1/25-eef) Message-Id: <9606051147.AB28244@sunams.usma.army.mil> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1e6244@sunams> From: "Mr. Erich L. Markert" <1e6244@sunams.usma.edu> Organization: USMA, DOIM-? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:48:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Reply-To: 1e6244@sunams.usma.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Point is, we shouldn't have to. Why is it that FREE mail clients like Pegasus can properly adhere to RFCs while the behemoth Microsoft can't? You'd think that with all their fantastic programmers that they would be able to get a simple mail client like MS Mail to function according to established standards. Who's kidding who... We shouldn't expect great things from a company that can't even create a calculator program that can handle floating point arithematic properly. > > You're right (IMHO) about who's at fault. You might consider contacting MS and > asking if this is fixed in a new or upcoming release: This should appease your -- __________________________________________________________ Mr. Erich L. Markert markert@www.usma.edu Webmaster TEL (914)938-6463 Directorate of Information Management FAX (914)938-7308 United States Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 07:35:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA19589 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www6.clever.net ([208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA19582 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:33:16 -0700 (PDT) From: CEO@Citadel.Net Received: from llion (llion-cs1-07.llion.org [198.209.45.107]) by www6.clever.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA16014 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960605093221.3c0f77dc@citadel.net> X-Sender: citadel@citadel.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: MS Annoying Confirmation Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! I'm new to this list, so apologize in advance if this has been discussed. But how are list owners dealing with those subscribers who ask for a confirmation of their message using their software. I believe it is the MS email program that is causing the problem. The subscriber requests a confirmation on their postings. The confirmation is then sent to everyone on the list or I receive the confirmation on everyone on the list. I'm using Mreply which doesn't seem to have much in filtering. Hope someone can give me a general idea of how to stop this. Thanks! Leonard From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 08:20:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23288 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA23257 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:06:51 -0700 (PDT) From: CDrury8303@aol.com Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04627 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:04:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:04:26 -0400 Message-ID: <960605110423_128345987@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Fwd: Confirmation Code Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry, Original meant for list discussion. Catherine --------------------- Forwarded message: From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: CDrury8303@aol.com Date: 96-06-05 08:24:49 EDT Your message came to just me, not to the entire list. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** This message has been Xenu-ized for your protection. **** *** Forwarding note from I1925413--IBMMAIL 06/05/96 08:21 *** Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:21:57 -0400 From: CDrury8303@aol.com To: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: Confirmation Code Does anyone know the address of a group that discusses policies for any mail system, not just listserv or majordomo? Any help would be appreciated. >From a newcommer to e-mail management. Catherine Drury Computer Security Coordinator St. Joseph's Hospital & Medical Center Paterson, NJ ---- End of mail text Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow: Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:21:46 EDT Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20349 for jcanterbury@u s.ibm.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:21:57 -0400 Message-ID: <960605082156_319079162@emout16.mail.aol.com> From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 11:22:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA14274 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halcyon.com (chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA14241 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halcyon.com id AA21607 From: Peter Marks Message-Id: <199606051815.AA21607@halcyon.com> Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199606050800.BAA22907@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Jun 5, 96 01:00:46 am Reply-To: marks@halcyon.com (Peter Marks) Phone: (206)489-0501 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Horwitz writes: > 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" > is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? > 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the > problem... You are right that older versions of MS Mail ignored the RFC822 headers, but at that time telling such users to get their mailers fixed was futile (to whom could they go?) Happily the latest version does (or at least can be configured to) understand the headers, so it would now certainly be appropriate to ask the offenders to get their mailsystems upgraded. I've been running SMTP mailing lists in a mostly-MS mail environment for a good while now (using procmail rather than majordomo), and all I've been able to come up with for the old situation was this: 1. Insert a preamble into all list-distributed messages highlighting the author and list addresses, and PLEADING with people to check the outgoing address of their responses, and change them as necessary. 2. Bouncing individual messages sent to the owner-list addess back to their originators via a script that tacks on a (slightly personalized) form letter explaining the error of their ways (i.e., essentially repeating 1) With #2 in place I still have to go thru the mis-sent mail, but it takes only a few seconds each to dispatch the message. The messages do get reposted correctly, about half the time I even get an apology, and the repetition rate for that error from those people is fairly low. P-) ___o - o Peter Marks _-\_<, - _\ /\_ 15307 NE 202nd Street (206)489-0501 (*)/ (*) - (*)^(*) Woodinville, WA 98072 ------------------------------ More comfortable AND faster ... that's REAL technology! From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 17:05:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25208 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id QAA25200 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA08410 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04512; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:27:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606041927.OAA04512@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:59:03 -0400 (EDT)" References: <01I5IJV0JBHQ001IBT@LACA.OHIO.GOV> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:27:25 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "PB" == "Paul S Bentivegna <-- Technology Coodinator" > writes: PB> I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to PB> the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This PB> seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be PB> configured to do this? The current development version of Majordomo (1.94alpha7) does this. Subscribe to majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com to find out about it. And, why send this to list-managers instead of majordomo-(users|workers)? list-managers is not for Majordomo questions. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 19:20:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA10225 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vger.Tripcom.COM (vger.Tripcom.COM [207.70.68.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA10208 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606060216.VAA06445@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:16:05 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199606050219.VAA15556@vger.Tripcom.COM> from "Roger Fajman" at Jun 4, 96 10:18:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". Thank You to each of you who replied. Everyone confirmed that Microsoft Mail is broken. (Whew; and I thought I made a mistake. Looks like my record is safe.) It is interesting to note that a search of Microsoft Technet did not turn up any reference to this problem. Maybe Microsoft doesn't like it to be known that they don't comform to others' standards... Several suggested that through various methods, I make the users switch to another mail system. I hope those of you who suggested this are not in the business of supporting people. Someone said that a recent update addresses this problem. I am going to look into this as Microsoft may have slipped one by me. Thanks again to each individual who replied. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 00:35:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA17509 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA17481 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA16865; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:18:36 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960605093221.3c0f77dc@citadel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:55:06 -0400 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: MS Annoying Confirmation Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:15 AM -0400 6/5/96, CEO@Citadel.Net wrote: > The subscriber requests a confirmation on > their postings. The confirmation is then sent > to everyone on the list or I receive the confirmation > on everyone on the list. I'm using Mreply which > doesn't seem to have much in filtering. Hope > someone can give me a general idea of how to > stop this. Thanks! The easiest way I know of is to use an SMTP MTA that ignores (and strips) that header. Recent versions of sendmail (8.7 and later) will do this, although you should be able to do something similar with any mailing list management package that lets you remove certain types of information/headers on messages before they get sent back out to the subscribers of the list. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 01:08:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA18130 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id AAA18122 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA13084 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.114.177.183] (pc177-183.hampshire.edu [198.114.177.183]) by hamp.hampshire.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18284 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:21:39 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Subject: list takeover? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A touchy question: I have owned/managed several lists over the past few years, and have gotten good feedback about how I manage lists. I am now a subscriber of a list that seems to be going down a slow spiral. It used to be a very useful resource, but is mainly "unsubscribe" messages, because something may be misconfigured in the list software, and/or the listowner seems absolutely nowhere. He doesn't reply to repeated requests for members to be removed, he doesn't seem to reply to any queries or requests about the list. I've once recieved mail from him quite some time ago in response to a question, but in the last 2 months or so, I've sent a couple of polite "what's up?" and "do you need help?" kinds of messages to no reply. I'm frustrated because I really think that this list provides some important and needed resources, but at this time is simply useless. So, my question: what can be done in this sort of instance that's not mean and nasty? I guess I could start a competing list, but that seems kindof underhanded. However, the listowner seems pretty uncommunicative, at least recently. Michelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Home page URL -> http://persephone.hampshire.edu/~mpm Minority Health listowner (minhlth-request@family.hampshire.edu) sci.med.aids FAQ maintainer/co-moderator (http://family.hampshire.edu/aidsfaq/aidsfaq.html) From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 04:50:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA03466 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA03459 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA27235; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:40:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:40:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list takeover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Michelle Murrain wrote: > A touchy question: > > may be misconfigured in the list software, and/or the listowner seems > absolutely nowhere. He doesn't reply to repeated requests for members to be > removed, he doesn't seem to reply to any queries or requests about the > list. Perhaps he died. > So, my question: what can be done in this sort of instance that's > not mean and nasty? I guess I could start a competing list, but that seems > kindof underhanded. However, the listowner seems pretty uncommunicative, at > least recently. > You may first want to contact the administrators of the listserver rather than the list owner. If it is an important resource and online contact isn't working, then try to phone the listowner or the system administrators where the list is located. Finally, post a question to the list participants stating your concerns and let them help you decide what to do. ---rob--- ( Teaching Online courses ... start again June 14 ) Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D.| The Virtual Gymnasium | aka: Doc Higgins ;-) CyberCorp Inc. |Online Education (courses)|writer of The Condom Song rhiggins@cybercorp.net | gymv@cybercorp.net | doc@cybercorp.net http://www.cybercorp.net | www.cybercorp.net/gymv | www.cybercorp.net/condom From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 05:36:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA07335 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA07279 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA17338 ; for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:30:32 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606061230.IAA17338@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: list takeover? To: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Michelle Murrain" at Jun 5, 96 06:21:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The lynx-dev list has recently muddled its way through the process of changing MLM-services provider. We did this with lots of jaw-jaw and a minimum of war-war, as Winston Churchill would say. The keys are the basic assertiveness or negotiation rules. Talk up the mission that the list accomplishes. Help the group verbalize standards for service. If you want to know more, write to me individually. Al Gilman P.S: The result, but intentionally not the process, is visible via http://www.access.digex.net/~asgilman/lynx/FAQ. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 09:21:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA27549 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merak.idola.net.id (merak.IdOLA.net.id [202.152.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA27530 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) From: firebird@elang.idola.net.id Received: from ppp2.IdOLA.net.id by merak.idola.net.id; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Mar96-0518PM) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:10:46 +0700 Message-Id: <9606061610.AA25930@merak.idola.net.id> X-Sender: firebird@elang.idola.net.id X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 09:50:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00384 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA00319 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts25-13.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.139.113]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id MAA27731; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606061635.MAA27731@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: firebird@elang.idola.net.id From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:10 PM 06/06/96 +0700, you wrote: >list > Dear firebird, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM is a list of managers who are list-managers. I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. Of course I could be wrong, in which case you would be looking for the manager of list-managers-owner -- but I don't know what its address is. Good luck. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 10:35:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA07468 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA07444 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:32:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In-reply-to: <199606061635.MAA27731@mail.inforamp.net> To: David Lloyd-Jones Cc: firebird@elang.idola.net.id, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists grouped by list kind? Sandra in Maconga On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might > guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 12:05:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA18146 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA18076 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23137 ; for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:39 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606061845.OAA23137@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? To: flowers_s@Mercer.EDU (Sandra Hollin Flowers) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Sandra Hollin Flowers" at Jun 6, 96 01:32:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might > guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. Which elicited the response: From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? To: David Lloyd-Jones OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists grouped by list kind? No sooner said than done: As elegantly explained in Norm Aleks's MLM FAQ, there are three classes of list managers: little-endians, middle-endians, and big-endians. little-endian list managers are card carrying libertarians and just do it via "exploder lists" in straight Unix. they are served by the discussion on /list/null, since they wouldn't deign to ask for help, anyway. Big-endian list managers are usually escapees from the world of big computers and little network bandwidth. they are served by the discussion on LSTOWN-L at a LISTSERV near you. Middle-endian list managers are escapees from the above two groups, and they muddle through hacking PERL rather than AWK. Some of them have gone totally mad and thing they _understand_ those ProcMail command files they use. You can find many of them here on list-managers [hosted by greatcircle.com -- admin requests to majordomo@...] So we have covered the class space of list-managers: two lists covering three classes. Super-linear performance! Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 12:20:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA20860 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA20849 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1887"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 16:12:14 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Humorous postings To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9606061912.AA23820@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't want to discourage flippancy, but since I suspect that many other list managers share my problem of getting lots of mail as we monitor lists, do our jobs, and write our sweethearts, perhaps any postings that do not actually relate to list management, such as the current spate of postings about newbies who send this list an inappropriate (but only one word) posting, could have a tag line in the subject such as: Subject: JOKE -- I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In this case the subject is clearly facetious, but in general it might save a lot of us some time. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 18:35:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29957 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA29950 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:30:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In-reply-to: <199606061845.OAA23137@access2.digex.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have gotten three responses to the following query: > OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is > it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by > chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists > grouped by list kind? All three responders understood me differently, so let me rephrase the query: Is there a list of list managers grouped by the interests they cater to? For example, those who run astology lists? dog-lovers' lists? religious lists? Boy and Girl Scout leaders lists? UFO spotters' lists? organ donor lists? THAT kind of "kind." What I am looking for is a group of people who run lists covering subject matter similar to what my lists cover. I know about the lists of lists, and I suppose the kinds of lists I'm looking for are probably buried somewhere in its 400+ pp, which I have not been able to plow through. David's note seemed to suggest a better way of finding the folks I want to be in contact with. Not that **you all** aren't good company, but well....you talk over my head most of the time. Once again, Sandra in Maconga From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 19:07:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00939 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA00926 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Message-Id: <199606070155.SAA21500@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:54:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mailing List Meta-Lists Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sandra Hollin Flowers wrote: > All three responders understood me differently, so let me rephrase > the query: Is there a list of list managers grouped by the interests they > cater to? For example, those who run astology lists? dog-lovers' lists? > religious lists? Boy and Girl Scout leaders lists? UFO spotters' lists? > organ donor lists? THAT kind of "kind." There is apparently a list for people who manage dog-related mailing lists; my wife (khyri@idyllmtn.com) is on that, so I guess if that's your cup of tea, check with her. I'm not aware of a list of meta-lists anywhere, but you might want to check around at some of the web sites that list as many mailing lists as they can get their hands on. An example: http://www.liszt.com/ -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 269,881st person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 19:22:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA01692 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA01683 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA28980; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:11:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Sandra Hollin Flowers wrote: > through. David's note seemed to suggest a better way of finding the folks > I want to be in contact with. Not that **you all** aren't good company, > but well....you talk over my head most of the time. > I don't think there are many of the sort of "meta" lists you are asking about, but if I wanted to find any Internet resources related to a particular area of interest, I would go to a WWW search engine such as Yahoo or Alta Vista. They often itemize lists and newsgroups for the subject area you choose. ---rob--- Teaching Online courses (start again June 14) Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D.| The Virtual Gymnasium | aka: Doc Higgins ;-) CyberCorp Inc. |Online Education (courses)|writer of The Condom Song rhiggins@cybercorp.net | gymv@cybercorp.net | doc@cybercorp.net http://www.cybercorp.net | www.cybercorp.net/gymv | www.cybercorp.net/condom From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 07:36:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA22558 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hud.gov (hudgate.hud.gov [198.200.153.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA22454 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jean_Scarr@hud.gov Received: by hud.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from hudsmtphq.hud.gov(170.97.1.9) by hudgate via smap (V1.0mjr) Received: from cc:Mail by hudsmtphq.hud.gov Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:40:15 EST Message-Id: <9605078341.AA834169215@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> To: "Dr. Rob Higgins" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how do I get off this list? thanks..... From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 08:05:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA25312 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA25304 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khyri by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:48:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199606071448.HAA25016@idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@206.16.238.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:40 AM 6/7/96 EST, Jean_Scarr@hud.gov wrote: > how do I get off this list? thanks..... D'oh! /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 302,495th person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 19:35:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA29391 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA29381 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA31976; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ?? List Moderators' roles as a dissertation topic (fwd) Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:46:40 -0400 From: Mauri Collins To: e-conf@chatsubo.com Subject: ?? List Moderators' roles as a dissertation topic Please forward this to any list moderators you know.... Several years ago Zane Berge and I did some exploratory research on how list owners/moderators define and experience their multiple roles. I have been talking with my dissertation advisor about extending that preliminary research into a dissertation and doing some 'thick, rich description' (gathered via an initial survey with follow up interviews). He expressed concern that I would be able to find enough subjects...and expressed some doubt that the research (survey and interviews) could be done online. So i said "I'll go ask!" :-) I think the topic is important because, while there is a fair amount in the literature now about teaching online...the "moderator" role(s) are to my mind, critically important and not necessarily exactly part of the "teaching" or "pedagogy"...and I haven't seen them teased out and closely examined, in the words and experiences of those actually DOING the job. So I thought I would ask those who are list moderators and functioning in that *role*, rather than as online teachers, to share their thoughts about what their roles are and the "meaning" they make of them. Data gathering would occur in the Fall. I would prefer to use both an online (or mailed) survey instrument and online interview/dialog so this may require several hours or more spread over several weeks. This would depend on the preferences of those who agree to participate. I could mail questions (snail mail or email) or put up a webpage...and interviews could be conducted online, f2f (where possible) or over the phone (as long as I could record the conversation for further study) My proposal will have to go through "human subjects" so all the usual disclaimers about confidentiality and doing no harm would be strictly adheared to. I am asking for volunteers who consider themselves 'list moderators' and who have been so for 6 months or so (so they have a good sense of who they are and what they do as a moderator). In my mind (as a list owner/moderator) the definition spans those who just own and 'watch over' a list (as I do with sister-share) to receiving and posting all messages to a list, with commentary sometimes...as I do with deos-l and i am sure there are many levels in between. I have started collecting literature and some of it is linked to the Moderator's Home Page (under construction and welcoming suggestions) http://cac.psu.edu/~mauri/moderators.html If you would be interested in participating in such dissertation research in Fall 1996, or have comments on my topic, or any other questions or comments, please let me know at mauri@cac.psu.edu. Thank you all mauri - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ms mauri p. collins ma /\\//\ Calder Square Box 10002 Internet: mauri@cac.psu.edu > () < State College Voice (814)238-3823 \/()\/ PA 16805, USA URL: http://cac.psu.edu/~mauri/mauri.html ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 06:50:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA04738 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA04712 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11711 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:33:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a2-4.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-4.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.4]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA20283 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:33:20 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have that could be looked for in a filter? From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 08:05:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA07216 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA07209 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.133.220.111] (cmh-ppp11.netset.com [205.133.220.111]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet-v.1.5) with SMTP id KAA04824; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: Online interviews Cc: mauri@cac.psu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Mauri Collins >I have been talking with my dissertation advisor about extending that >preliminary research into a dissertation and doing some 'thick, rich >description' (gathered via an initial survey with follow up >interviews). He expressed concern that I would be able to find enough >subjects...and expressed some doubt that the research (survey and >interviews) could be done online. So i said "I'll go ask!" :-) Although this doesn't seem to be the main thrust of your message, I will comment on this from my experience. I completed my Master's thesis (1994, VA Tech) based on data gathered from two internet mailing lists. Although it was tough convincing my advisors that such a survey could work... they did approve my proposal. I had no problem gathering subjects. In my case (writing about adoption) I found many people who wished to give my survey to non-internet folks (which I did not allow), or to forward it on to various newsgroups, etc. (which did happen, despite my request to the contrary). A few things to keep in mind (and for list-managers to think about should they be approached with such a request): 1. Get permission of the list-owner to post your survey to his/her list. It is *very* helpful to be able to say "John Smith, manager of XXX list, has given me permission to ask list members for assistance with this project." It really cuts down on the flames/spams/etc. Too, the list owner can get you membership numbers that will help to determine response rate (if that is of interest to you), demographic information, and the info about the list that you will need for your methods section. 2. Set up a seperate account for your research, and use this account for nothing but your research! In addition to my personal and work accounts, I had my university set up another account called thesis@domain.edu so that all of the responses to my survey could be easily, and accurately, seperated from more general mail. If you are subscribed to any of the lists to which you will send your survey you will, of course, need the list owner to add that account to the membership roster (at least for the duration of your project). 3. There really is some good social science research concerning internet interviews/surveys. If you can't find references on your own, email me and I'll find something for you. >If you would be interested in participating in such dissertation >research in Fall 1996, or have comments on my topic, or any other >questions or comments, please let me know at mauri@cac.psu.edu. You can count me in. Dana BTW: as a side note... I'd be interested in knowing the policy of other list managers IRT surveys, etc. At AIML, we allow this but request that people contact the managers before sending such requests to the list. Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Manager, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ I'm so glad that you came tonight. I sometimes worry that no one will show up, and without you, there would be little point in my being here. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 09:25:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09421 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09386 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: helmant@ozemail.com.au (Dr.Tony Helman) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting >in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on >holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. > I can't say anything about the holiday messages beyond the fact that I immediately delete anybody from lists I maintain the first time I get a holidy/vacation messages with a note to them to resubscribe when they're back or have fixed their mailer so that I don't get the messages. My solution to preventing loops on the list is to maintain a dbm database of Message-Id:s that have been sent to the list and reject any duplicates. I originally did this by writing a simple perl script, chkmsgid, that could be invoked within a .deliver script and it returned the count of occurrences of that Message-Id: in the list. We're using majordomo now so I've incorporated this test directly in resend. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 13:35:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA20477 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bdt.bdt.com (bdt.com [140.174.173.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA20463 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bdt.bdt.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.6) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 13:23 PDT Received: from noident@philw.dial-up.bdt.com(204.188.159.99) by bdt via smap (V1.3bdt) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960608134000.094f5b50@bdt.com> X-Sender: philw@bdt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Phil Wolff Subject: GUI for ListServ or Majordomo? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Have you seen a list server Graphical User Interface? Web based? Java based? Win95/NT? X-Windows? That works? I'm at the point where I want to handoff some duties to less-skilled folks, and I can't help but think that a dialog box approach would make the learning curve shorter and some tasks faster. We are running mail services on Solaris and clients on Solaris and Win32. ___________ Phil Wolff, Web Programs, LSI Logic, philw@lsil.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 14:20:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22443 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com ([204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA22436 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) To: adam@Tripcom.COM Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-Reply-To: <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Adam Horwitz on scroll <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". It's worse than just ignoring Reply-To: headers. MS-Mail replys to the envelope sender instead of the message sender!! I would tell the list users that their choice of mailer is not good. Explain to them exactly what is wrong with the mailer and if they want to complain to somebody they should complain to MS. I, under no circumstances, would change the envelope sender (From - with no colon). If you do change it, then your list recipients will get all of the bounces that should come to the list owner. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 14:35:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23664 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA23634 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: adam@Tripcom.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brian J. Murrell" at Jun 8, 96 02:17:04 pm Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >from the quill of Adam Horwitz on scroll >It's worse than just ignoring Reply-To: headers. MS-Mail replys to the >envelope sender instead of the message sender!! > I manage several lists that include engineers from Microsoft, and I take delight in replying to their posts telling them that their brain-dead mailer screwed up again. One thing that I can't figure though is that none of our lists Reply-To: the list, but leave the original sender's headers intact -- and the Microsofty's posts still come to the list owner. Some wag commented that Microsoft wanted to write every line of code for NT to make sure that they owned it all -- and to make sure that it didn't accidentally adhere to any existing standards. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 15:20:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA25936 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from f-body.org (LT1.udweb.com [204.33.245.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA25922 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from robg@localhost) by f-body.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00251; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:21:10 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glover To: "Dr.Tony Helman" cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Holiday messages In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Dr.Tony Helman wrote: > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. > > Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have > that could be looked for in a filter? >From somewhat of a novice standpoint, I'd suggest disallowing posts to go to the list from any account with "Postmaster" or "Root" in it... Rob From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 19:51:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA05848 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA05840 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id VAA26963; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:47:49 -0500 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199606090247.VAA26963@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Online interviews (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:47:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) wrote: > BTW: as a side note... I'd be interested in knowing the policy > of other list managers IRT surveys, etc. At AIML, we allow > this but request that people contact the managers before sending > such requests to the list. On sci.med.aids (aids@wubios.wustl.edu), gerinet and health-l we require that the originator has gone through the appropriate human studies approval proccess at their institution. Only on sci.med.aids which is moderated can this be enforced. -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 21:05:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA08429 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA08420 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts66-09.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.137.218]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA22801; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606090343.XAA22801@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "J. Philip Miller" From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Online interviews (fwd) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:47 PM 08/06/96 -0500, Dr. J. Philip Miller wrote: >On sci.med.aids (aids@wubios.wustl.edu), gerinet and health-l we require that >the originator has gone through the appropriate human studies approval >proccess at their institution. Only on sci.med.aids which is moderated can >this be enforced. Hmmm. "The appropriate human studies approval process" eh? "Subjects' informed consent protocols"? Indeed... I wonder if I could use those as a reason for cutting down on some of the survey junk that floods through? DLJ Moderator, sci.econ.research :-) From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 14:06:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA22821 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA22814 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from tardis Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 13:56:37 PDT From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9606102056.AA12285@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. If any of your members are on UNIX systems, you're out of luck, since there is no standard for vacation messages. The program /usr/ucb/vacation creates a file called ~/.vacation.msg which the user can edit, and they can put in it anything they please. A typical message is: Subject: away from my mail I will be out of the office until 14-Jun-96. Your mail regarding "$SUBJECT" will be read when I return. However, there is no guarentee that the user will put "away" or "when I return" in this message. And since the program is invoked via '\user,"/usr/ucb/vacation user"' in their .forward file, the reply message will show up as being from that user, not Postmaster or root. -Joe From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 21:20:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA07927 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.oulu.fi (lists.oulu.fi [130.231.241.85]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA07874 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mhotti@localhost) by lists.oulu.fi (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA12184 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:03:08 +0300 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:03:08 +0300 (EET DST) From: Marko Hotti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: search engines for mailing list archives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I've been archiving couple of my special interest mailing lists in digest format using the Majordomo 1.94 software. There are over 150 MB of material there right now. The digests are indexed based on subject lines already (makeindex.pl) but I'd like to extend this service further so that my subscribers could make random searches from the digest resources using either a web interface or some kind of telnettable service. Does anyone of you utilize WAIS? Would it be suitable for this purpose and is it safe as to security? Any other suggestions - a Perl script perhaps? With regards, Marko Hotti -- Marko Hotti Faculty of Medicine University of Oulu, FINLAND Email: Marko.Hotti@oulu.fi http://raita.oulu.fi/~mhotti/ Home: +358 81 530 4268 System Administrator of 'lists.oulu.fi' Work: +358 40 552 8415 Tervontie 4 C 11, FIN-90230 OULU From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 22:05:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA13778 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA13770 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA13604; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> To: helmant@ozemail.com.au CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: "Dr.Tony Helman"'s message of Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> Subject: Holiday messages Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 From: "Dr.Tony Helman" In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have that could be looked for in a filter? This reply only applies to vacation messages generated on UNIX systems. Tony, I use vacation messages frequently (if you mail to me, you'll see mine :). I have to when I fall behind on my mail. I'm way behind now because my mom died in April and ... well, the whys should be obvious. I've also used them when travelling and moving. I have it set up to send out to anyone sending mail to cnorman@ucsd.edu or immune-request@weber.ucsd.edu. I use them as an instant "help" message for my list too (very very useful and keeps nasty user messages way way down--also keeps away those "why aren't you a machine that responds immediately 24 hours a day?" letters for those of you who run manual lists like me). There is a standard format provided when one sets up the vacation message. But, Joe is right, the user can edit it, so there will be no keywords that will always work. Though searching for "vacation" will catch most of them. Here's the header of mine: From: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu (Cyndi Norman) Subject: Responses from Cyndi are delayed Delivered-By-The-Graces-Of: The Vacation Program Precedence: bulk Of course, the from and subject lines are customized. I left the other two lines as is. Maybe bulk messges are a good thing to screen out anyway, but don't quote me. But I wonder why your'e having the problem in the first place. I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. My vacation program, and all those I've seen, only return to people who mail directly to the user (or in my case, my address or my immune-request alias, but only because I set it that way on purpose). I hope this is helpful. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 23:36:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA19896 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA19888 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts34-10.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.140.90]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id CAA05373 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606110622.CAA05373@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a typical exchange, C. Norman wrote: > From: "Dr.Tony Helman" > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. >This reply only applies to vacation messages generated on UNIX systems. >Tony, I use vacation messages frequently (if you mail to me, you'll see >mine :). etc. etc. I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than talking to the people doing all these dumb things! This is certainly the right way of going about things if you want to run a whole lot of lists -- but then why would anybody want to run a whole lot of lists? Let the people who are interested in the material run the lists, fer goshsakes. * * * I see I've fallen into the tekkie style of calling people "users" above. Looks like I'm going native. :-) A few years ago I took a Unix course at the local university, and by chance I often had a guy known to be the best programmer around in the seat immediately to my left. Big guy with a beard, collar-long hair, forester's uniform of big boots and hairy shirt, the whole Oregon/Boulder schtick. He would sit there for ninety minutes at a stretch staring fixedly at the lecturer, grinding his teeth, and muttering "Goddamn users, Goddam users" in a steady growl throughout the lecture. I only once interrupted him to ask whether the network wasn't there to look after the users' needs. He looked up at me from his prehensile crouch and said "Goddam users. Get in the way of research" and then went back to his growling. I'm not making this stuff up. Honest. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 00:05:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA20828 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA20821 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21583; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606110651.XAA21583@weber.ucsd.edu> To: helmant@ozemail.com.au CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Cyndi Norman's message of Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: Holiday messages Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Whoops! following up on my own post: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman But I wonder why your'e having the problem in the first place. I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. My vacation program, and all those I've seen, only return to people who mail directly to the user (or in my case, my address or my immune-request alias, but only because I set it that way on purpose). Cyndi, you're a moron, and not only that but you're wrong! :-) (gotta get my flame quotionant for the day). A vacation message will sometimes get sent to the list-owner as if it were a bounce. But they don't seem to get sent all the time; I rarely get them on my list, and then only once (probably cause the .vacation.db file keeps the list-owener as the address on record (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one resets the program)). But it seems to occur less frequently than that anyway. The best way to tell is to ask the owner of this very list. My vacation message is turned on and I reset it every few days (either because I've changed it or to weed out repeat mailers). Have you recieved my vacation message as a bounce? Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:20:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA18858 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA18850 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9606102056.AA12285@tardis.tymnet.com> from "Joe Smith" at Jun 10, 96 01:56:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe Smith wrote, | If any of your members are on UNIX systems, you're out of luck, since there | is no standard for vacation messages. The program /usr/ucb/vacation creates | a file called ~/.vacation.msg which the user can edit, and they can put in it | anything they please. ... [T]here is no guarentee that the user will put | "away" or "when I return" in this message. True, there is no guaranteed way to recognize a vacation message by its text. But vacation programs are not supposed to respond to incoming mail that fits even one of the following categories: 1. has "bulk", "junk", or "list" precedence; 2. has "-request", "owner-", or "-owner" [or for that matter, "daemon" or "root" or "postmaster"] in the From_ line, the Sender: header, the From: header, the Resent-Sender: header, or the Resent-From: header; or 3. does not specify the recipient's address in a To:, Resent-To:, Cc:, or Resent-Cc: header. Mail from lists should certainly meet #3 if not also #2 and #1. If a list member's vacation program reacts to mail from the list, then the member has misconfigured his or her vacation routines or is using a badly broken vacation program. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:36:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA19787 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id FAA19771 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08315 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:26:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from slmel4p31.ozemail.com.au (slmel4p31.ozemail.com.au [203.15.163.119]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA21649 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:26:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960611141519.0c5f7ec2@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:27:35 -1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Vacation messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have > from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than > talking to the people doing all these dumb things! This might be Not so much that (and my list is only 150 people) as the rapidity with which a vicious loop of bouncing email can fill up your in-tray, way before you get the chance to have a quiet chat with the originator (who is presumably on vacation anyway!). Cyndi wrote: > (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one resets the program) This is interesting. Do you mean these vacation programs keep a record of who they have posted to regardless of what is in the in-coming email? That would of course solve the entire problem, because then there would be no vicious loops. Tony Helman From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:51:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA20458 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA20443 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606111237.AA10482@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Re: Vacation messages To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:37:54 -0300 (ADT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960611141519.0c5f7ec2@203.2.192.124> from "Dr.Tony Helman" at Jun 11, 96 10:27:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Cyndi wrote: >> (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one >resets the program) > >This is interesting. Do you mean these vacation programs keep a record of >who they have posted to regardless of what is in the in-coming email? That >would of course solve the entire problem, because then there would be no >vicious loops. Exactly. The vacation program (this is the Unix one) maintains a data base, and usually the message says that you should get only one copy. However there exist programs for other platforms that might not have this feature. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 06:51:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27192 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pet.bgsm.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA27184 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cathy@localhost) by pet.bgsm.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA15109 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Cathy Eades Message-Id: <199606111339.JAA15109@pet.bgsm.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: >I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have >from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than >talking to the people doing all these dumb things! I have a friend who is an experimental psychologist turned computer-programmer. His comment on situations like the "vacation message" problem is that "The rat is always right". In other words, users will tend to do what is to them the most obvious thing. Sometimes, even constant badgering will not overcome the tendency to do the most obvious thing. In this case, if a user has a facility to send vacation messages, sometimes the most obvious thing to do is to use it. The trick in "data processing" (an old-fashioned term that has unfortunately lost it's former generality) is to make the obvious thing the right thing, or at least not a terrible thing. Thus the concern to make sending vacation messages not be a terrible burden for the rest of the list participants. -cathy eades, data-processor (in the old-fashioned sense) From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 07:36:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA02855 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA02845 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606111416.AA10934@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Vacation Programs To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:16:29 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are several vacation programs, but I just checked the manual entry for the SGI version and noted the following, which may be of some help to list managers, since by appropriate list configuration (e.g., including a ``Precedence: bulk'' header) one may be able to suppress automatic replies. "...vacation will send an automatic reply to the sender of the incoming mail message provided that all of the following are true: 1. userid (or an alias supplied using the -a option) is part of either the ``To:'' or ``Cc:'' headers of the mail. 2. No automatic reply has been sent to the sender within the configured interval days. (See the -i and -r flags above.) 3. The sender of the incoming message is not ``???-REQUEST'', ``Postmaster'', ``UUCP'', ``MAILER'', or ``MAILER-DAEMON'' (where case doesn't matter). 4. No ``Precedence: bulk'' or ``Precedence: junk'' line is included in headers of the incoming mail message." -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 08:53:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA10721 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA10714 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA21184 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:44:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199606111544.JAA21184@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:44:22 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have > from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than > talking to the people doing all these dumb things! I've found that it's much easier on my time and sanity to deal with problems like this in one place (the software) than convince people to change their behavior. If I tell the computer to stop doing something, it'll actually stop doing it *without* me having to threaten to come over to its house with a police truncheon. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 09:36:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA14597 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA14581 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khyri by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:23:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199606111623.JAA01117@idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@206.16.238.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marko Hotti , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: search engines for mailing list archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:03 AM 6/11/96 +0300, Marko Hotti wrote: >Does anyone of you utilize WAIS? Would it be suitable for this purpose and >is it safe as to security? Any other suggestions - a Perl script perhaps? I've recently installed the Architext program and used it to index my hypermail mailing list archives. You can find it at the Excite site. (http://www.excite.com/) /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 302,495th person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 15:06:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA16435 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.wvs.com (hades.wvs.com [204.247.81.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA16368 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.wvs.com (sol.wvs.com [204.247.80.10]) by hades.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09813 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zorch.sf-bay.org (Uzorch@localhost) by sol.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with UUCP id OAA15905 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sol.wvs.com: Uzorch set sender to zorch.sf-bay.org!news using -f Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA29730 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:50:35 -0700 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Holiday messages Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:50:33 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I >heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. The vacation program at my former employer's site was notorious for sending trash responses to mailing lists or to submitters. This despite repeated attempts at user education on my part. I finally had to escalate it all of the way up to the divisional VP level, and it hadn't been fixed as of the time I left. This situation combined all of the well-known no-nos: losing the envelope FROM, mixing up header From:, Sender and Reply-To, etc. Once the gateway was done munching the return information, the 'agent' program sent one response for every message received. No checking for recipient on the To line, no looking at Precedence/Priority headers (they were trashed by the gateway, you see), and no database of addresses ala UNIX 'vacation'. So, if you have a lastname_firstname@tandem.com address on your mailing list, beware! You may be getting set up for list-managers hell. My advice to irate list-managers was to nuke the Tandem addressee and let them resubscribe when they got back. -- Scott Hazen Mueller | scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG or tandem!zorch!scott From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 22:36:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA16341 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA16318 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606120532.WAA16318@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:29:33 EDT Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With regard to vacation notices and mailing lists, we now have the specifications on the standards track for Delivery Status Notifications, which make it easy for mailing list managers to process bounce messages automatically. Also, the work in the IETF on Message Disposition Notifications (aka read receipts) is moving along. What do list managers think about the idea of defining some standards for vacation notices and perhaps change of address notices? If so, what form should such standards take? Is it enough to mark such messages in such a way that they could reliably be transfered to a list owner for manual inspection, but not specifically identified in a machine processable way? Or is it important to define formats for such messages that can be processed fully automatically? From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 22:50:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA16769 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA16740 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606120536.WAA16740@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:34:13 EDT Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've being having increasing problems with vacation messages generated by Groupwise systems. They don't seem to use any of the heuristics mentioned here. In particular, they don't respond only once to each address -- they respond to every message. Usually LISTSERV's loop detector catches the loops quickly, but occasionally it doesn't work. The loops with LISTSERV's command processor are the ones that sometimes don't get caught. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 12 02:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA28232 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA28175 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:42:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:42:31 +0200 Message-Id: <199606120942.19545.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <199606120532.WAA16318@miles.greatcircle.com> (RAF@CU.NIH.GOV) Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Roger Fajman] | Is it enough to mark such messages in such a way that they could | reliably be transfered to a list owner for manual inspection, but | not specifically identified in a machine processable way? Or is it | important to define formats for such messages that can be | processed fully automatically? These two goals need not contradict eachother. Look at Usenet newgroup messages: They are identified by a special header Control: newgroup alt.music.velvet-belly and amidst often considerable prose in the body, you'll find: For your newsgroups file: alt.music.velvet-belly Discussion on the band Velvet Belly. The problem is finding a replacement for the Control header, since we can't be sure it survives all gateways. Looking to RFC1894 (has it entered standards track yet?) seems natural, it uses MIME so it should be have a fair chance of getting through the gateways intact. Then it's sufficient to add a report-type: "message/address-change" with this in body: Old address: kjetilho@mnemosyne.uio.no New address: Kjetil T Homme Valid from: 1996-01-01 00:00 UT Any commentary for human readers can be added in a text/plain part. A report-type for vacation can be be similarily contructed, but since it seems like existing vacation reply programs are so needlessly faulty today, with the exception of the BSD vacation program, I wouldn't be too optimistic getting this into an RFC would help at all. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 12 08:51:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA25753 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA25724 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.114.177.183] (pc177-183.hampshire.edu [198.114.177.183]) by hamp.hampshire.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10720 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:50:46 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What I do is very simple: yank them. I just take them off the distribution list even if I get one vacation message to the list. I might do them the courtesy of sending them a message stating what I did. Then, when they get back, and notice that they aren't getting e-mail from their beloved list, they ask why. I tell them, and I don't think I *once* have gotten a repeat offender. Brute force, but effective. I usually am very nice, but when it comes to things that can cause annoyance to many users, I'm less nice, plus I don't want to have to spend time rearranging my list (or my life) to avoid totally avoidable problems that people who didn't think did. Oh, and I send bi-weekly reminder messages, and in that message I warn against vacation programs. Michelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Home page URL -> http://persephone.hampshire.edu/~mpm Minority Health listowner (minhlth-request@family.hampshire.edu) sci.med.aids FAQ maintainer/co-moderator (http://family.hampshire.edu/aidsfaq/aidsfaq.html) From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 12 11:21:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA16946 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.eunet.fr (relay2.EUnet.fr [192.134.192.149]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA16793 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sauvy2.ined.fr by relay2.eunet.fr (5.65c8d/96.05.03) Received: by sauvy2.ined.fr (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:06:14 +0200 (DFT) From: Nicolas Brouard To: list-managers Subject: sendmail.cf CD DL ? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am maintaining a list on the host sauvy.ined.fr which is not the main mail server of domain ined.fr. Many people of this list are on the same domain ined.fr, so I want that my list server send mails directly to the=20 local mail server without going first through the outside mailer relay=20 specified in the DRchenas.inria.fr option of my sendmail.cf and then back= =20 to ined.fr . If I change the DR option to our local mail server host, it should work,=20 but when it is down, I won't be able to send a mail outside our our domain. According to the following documentation of sendmail.cf: # D class: Domains into which we should send mail directly.=20 # Explicit list of all domains into which we can and should send mail=20 # directly (without the use of any forwarder, relay, or exchanger hosts.)= =20 # If this host is a relay or exchanger for a particular domain, that=20 domain=20 # should be listed here, otherwise this class may be left empty.=20 #CD should I simply add: CDined.fr=20 ? Additional question (related) People reading their mail on the same host (sauvy.ined.fr) that the host=20 where the listserver (listproc 6.0c) resides, should be identified simply a= s username instead as a generic name username@ined.fr or even=20 username@sauvy.ined.fr . This is not so convenient. What should I add to the local sendmail.cf of sauvy.ined.fr so that any mail from sauvy itsel= f contains the domain name in its from: Thank you for any answer (sendmail.cf is always hard for me). -- Nicolas Brouard Institut national d'=E9tudes d=E9mographiques Paris brouard@ined.fr,http://sauvy.ined.fr/~brouard From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 12 15:51:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA07325 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA07274 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606122247.PAA07274@miles.greatcircle.com> To: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:45:37 EDT Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > | Is it enough to mark such messages in such a way that they could > | reliably be transfered to a list owner for manual inspection, but > | not specifically identified in a machine processable way? Or is it > | important to define formats for such messages that can be > | processed fully automatically? > > These two goals need not contradict eachother. Look at Usenet newgroup > messages: They are identified by a special header > Control: newgroup alt.music.velvet-belly > and amidst often considerable prose in the body, you'll find: > > For your newsgroups file: > alt.music.velvet-belly Discussion on the band Velvet Belly. I wasn't suggesting that human readability and a format processable by a machine are mutually exclusive. The question was (1) is it sufficient to tag such messages with some well-defined, but generic header that indicates that the message is not normally to be distributed to lists (like the proposed Autosubmitted header), or (2) is it important to come up with a format that specifically identifies a message as a vacation message or a change of address message and is both human readable and machine processable (like your suggestion below)? > The problem is finding a replacement for the Control header, since we > can't be sure it survives all gateways. Looking to RFC1894 (has it > entered standards track yet?) seems natural, it uses MIME so it should > be have a fair chance of getting through the gateways intact. Then > it's sufficient to add a report-type: "message/address-change" with > this in body: > > Old address: kjetilho@mnemosyne.uio.no > New address: Kjetil T Homme > Valid from: 1996-01-01 00:00 UT > > Any commentary for human readers can be added in a text/plain part. Yes, if we define a special type of message, it would almost certainly be done in a way similar to this. RFC 1894 is a proposed standard. > A report-type for vacation can be be similarily contructed, but since > it seems like existing vacation reply programs are so needlessly > faulty today, with the exception of the BSD vacation program, I > wouldn't be too optimistic getting this into an RFC would help at all. > > > Kjetil T. If we have a standard defined, then it may be easier to get at least some people to conform. Now it's hard to tell people what they should be doing. From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 14 07:21:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA12664 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA12657 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (kjetilho@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:11:30 +0200 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:11:30 +0200 Message-Id: <199606141411.29324.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [humour] vacation message Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just got this vacation message, and it should serve as a good example how hard it is to parse vacation messages (at least it was written in English, not Norwegian). Kjetil T. --- begin forwarded message --- Return-Path: Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:30:29 +0200 From: "Jens T. Berger Thielemann" Subject: Time discontinuity encountered. Precedence: bulk Apparently-To: ijk Summer'96 It has finally been proved: Einstein and Planck were right. Time is not only quantified; it is also segmented. You are now entering a very special phase of time, which occurs rather seldom. In turn, this situation will make most of the northern hemisphere come to a rest - made inactive by our planet's position relative to the Sun. Readers of _Scientific American_ have probably read about a worse incarnation of this phenomena. As noted in the "Anti=A0Gravity" column in the April'96 edition; the Earth may face attack by a series of killer neutrinos from distant supernovas=B9. The vast effects from this are unimaginable. For this time, we're slipping easily away. The effect, however, is the same. Libraries will close. Garbage collection will cease. Do not use Emacs. Luckily, the government has acted in order to avoid total failure. It has also prepared the public for action. This extra-ordinary situation has also been given a name: "Vacation." Which is exactly what I happen to be on. Long gone, no computer. This in turn means that it may take some time until I reply to the mail you sent me regarding "Idle Job Killer: jensthi@maud.ifi.uio.no." More precisely, I *will* in any case read my mail about the 25th of August. I may also log in some times during the summer; but don't count on it. Please also note that the mail system may be a bit unstable in the period 12th - 20th of August (due to site reconfigurations). If you are desperate, however, there are still possibilities. My real mailbox will still exist and be emptied on a daily basis. So will my phone. For interfacing towards these, please try the following: Snail-mail: Jens Berger [...] Phone: [...] One final remark: Good summer. Sincerely, Jens Berger =B9=A0I *know* this is totally bogus. So don't flame me. If you didn't get the irony in all of this, one of us must have a strange sense of humor. Which in turn means that one of us probably should consult a doctor. And when did *you* visit him last time? From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 14 13:37:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA20429 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id NAA20420 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA19097 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org(198.70.54.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: Roger Fajman Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:33:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199606120536.WAA16740@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Roger Fajman" at Jun 12, 96 01:34:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9606120933.aa00204@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Roger Fajman: > > I've being having increasing problems with vacation messages > generated by Groupwise systems. They don't seem to use any of > the heuristics mentioned here. In particular, they don't respond > only once to each address -- they respond to every message. > Usually LISTSERV's loop detector catches the loops quickly, but > occasionally it doesn't work. The loops with LISTSERV's command > processor are the ones that sometimes don't get caught. GW doesn't have a "vacation" function as such; it has a "rules" function that lets each person create rules for distribution or handling of incoming messages. It's very powerful; the first time I tried it I created a loop that almost brought our system down, and I like to think I know what I'm doing. I think someone should talk to Novell about the problem. They are getting a new version ready for release, maybe we could get something included with it. Alternatively we could work up some suggestions for how to implement a rule for a GW vacation notification piece, including suggestions for how to make it avoid lists. The docs that come with GW don't say much, just turn people loose. If we had a good text file on the subject, and distributed it widely, we might be able to make a dent in the GW user base -- and in the process give the users enough information that they don't embarrass themselves unnecessarily. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 14 14:36:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA24308 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6.UU.NET (relay6.UU.NET [192.48.96.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA24293 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA25639 ; for ; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:56:36 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606142056.QAA25639@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: mcook@ecunet.org (Merrill Cook) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Cc: RAF@cu.nih.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9606120933.aa00204@pcusa01.ecunet.org> from "Merrill Cook" at Jun 12, 96 09:33:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Merrill Cook Alternatively we could work up some suggestions for how to implement a rule for a GW vacation notification piece, including suggestions for how to make it avoid lists. The docs that come with GW don't say much, just turn people loose. If we had a good text file on the subject, and distributed it widely, we might be able to make a dent in the GW user base -- and in the process give the users enough information that they don't embarrass themselves unnecessarily. -- Actually, what you are talking about is a vacation plug-in for GroupWise implemeted in extension language compatible with GroupWise. That is a good idea. The generic type of what you want to create is "installation kit" not "text file." Ask the slickest GroupWise user you know what would be the right way to package up such a kit. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 14 16:36:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA07096 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA07013 for ; Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP Received: from Graphics.Cornell.EDU (LOCALHOST) by broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu with ESMTP Message-Id: <199606142311.AA189773884@broccoli.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: peace at last?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:11:24 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk So what finally became of our beloved KK? It's been awfully quiet the last few weeks. Did AOL do the whole net a huge favor? Or did he just get bored and get a real life? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 15 05:11:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA18939 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 05:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [198.70.54.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA18932 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 1996 05:01:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: Al Gilman Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 07:55:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook Cc: mcook@ecunet.org, RAF@cu.nih.gov, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199606142056.QAA25639@access2.digex.net> from "Al Gilman" at Jun 14, 96 04:56:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9606150755.aa04676@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Al Gilman: > > Actually, what you are talking about is a vacation plug-in for > GroupWise implemeted in extension language compatible with > GroupWise. That is a good idea. The generic type of what you > want to create is "installation kit" not "text file." Ask the > slickest GroupWise user you know what would be the right way to > package up such a kit. Wonderful idea. I can put together a step-by-step instruction sheet on how to implement GW's rules to do a decent vacation rule. I am not competent (at least with my current load of projects) to come up with an idiot-proofed installation kit add-on. I'd be willing to work on the design with someone... Maybe the GW API could be useful. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 17 06:39:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA05570 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA05563 for ; Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606171308.AA14391@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: A couple of more apparent victims To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:08:10 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On June 14 the following subscribers joined all public lists at this site at the same time: coontakint@aol.com frazfam@bak2.lightspeed.net I have already deleted coontakint@aol.com from all lists (full mailbox) and written frazfam@bak2.lightspeed.net for confirmation. Other list managers may wish to check these addresses for validity. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 20 08:38:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA03510 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA03484 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 08:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keagan.cit.cornell.edu (KEAGAN.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.69.186]) by cornell.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03583 for ; Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606201530.LAA03583@cornell.edu> From: Sue Utter Honig To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: bogus subscriptions Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 11:39:38 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, A week or so ago, one of the lists on our server started receiving bogus subscription requests (the list was open subscription, we're running a slightly modified version of CREN's Listproc 7.2). Looking at the Received: headers on the subscription requests, the logs show a cluster of them being sent through one host within an hour or so, then nothing for a while (maybe even a day), then another cluster coming from another host. The person(s) doing this have used quite a variety of hosts to pass the requests through. Sometimes the address subscribed is invalid, sometimes it's not. The owner of the list has heard from some of the people subscribed and it appears that they're being added to lists on other servers too. I had hoped that whomever was doing this maybe had some vendetta against this particular list and this would just go away once the owner changed to approved subscriptions. Unfortunately, I discovered that a couple of other lists on our server are experiencing the same problem. I've been requesting log information from the administration of hosts through which the forgeries are being sent. I've received three responses, all saying it looks like the forgeries are being sent by a valid user at their host. I'm thinking that these forgeries may be being sent as a test for some type of automated subscription bomb program, like the "flame thrower" program somebody mentioned earlier. Is anyone experiencing the same thing or know more about what's going on? Thanks much. Sue Honig suh1@cornell.edu From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 24 07:03:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA00310 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uu9.psi.com (uu9.psi.com [38.145.107.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA00290 for ; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dkmc.UUCP by uu9.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 09:38:34 EDT From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Subject: List Etiquette Message-Id: <9606240938.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a very small list (100 members) most of whose members have little other contact with the Internet or electronic communication. (It's a high school alumni list.) I'd like to give people a clue about things like quoting a 3-screen message to add, "Me, too!" without seeming to lecture them. Is there a small list of list etiquette pointers I could "come across" and mail to the list? Thanks! --Bob Brown From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 04:33:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA11431 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.Clark.Net (mail.clark.net [168.143.0.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA11424 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 04:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.27.242.91] (ggwo.smart.net [206.27.242.91]) by mail.Clark.Net (8.7.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id HAA04536 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:32:23 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: John Collins Subject: Re:List-Managers-Digest V5 #134 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 09:38:34 EDT > From: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) > Subject: List Etiquette > > I'd like to give people a clue about things like quoting a 3-screen > message to add, "Me, too!" without seeming to lecture them. > > Is there a small list of list etiquette pointers I could "come across" > and mail to the list? Thanks! > --Bob Brown Bob, I have a pretty good doc I send to all new subscribers to one of my lists. It's called "Electronic Mail Etiquette." It's from David Harris, the author of Pegasus Mail. Very nicely done, addressing this and other issues. I'm hesitant to post it to this list, as it's 12Kb in total size, but I think you can find it online if you do a search via altavista or some place like that. Biggest problem: the people who NEED it the most all seem to ignore it! ;) John ______________________________________________________________________ jcollins@clark.net ================== Greater Grace World Outreach Online: home of The Grace Hour. Using Real Audio, Grace Hour is the Net's first daily Christian talk radio broadcast: http://www.ggwo.org/ ______________________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 10:03:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA28894 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay-2.mail.demon.net (disperse.demon.co.uk [158.152.1.77]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA28879 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-2.mail.demon.net Received: from bespin.demon.co.uk ([158.152.171.11]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:59:35 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Colin F Reynolds Subject: Re: List Etiquette In-Reply-To: <9606240938.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.12 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <9606240938.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org>, Bob Brown writes >I run a very small list (100 members) most of whose members have >little other contact with the Internet or electronic communication. >(It's a high school alumni list.) > >I'd like to give people a clue about things like quoting a 3-screen >message to add, "Me, too!" without seeming to lecture them. > >Is there a small list of list etiquette pointers I could "come across" >and mail to the list? Thanks! > --Bob Brown > What John Collins said. The latest version I can find is at: http://www2.uel.ac.uk/netw/mail/etiquette.html -- Colin Reynolds, Managing Director The Net Effect (World Wide) Ltd PO Box 78 Chesterfield S43 1YZ United Kingdom +44 (0)1246 232220 mailto:colin@the-net-effect.com http://www.the-net-effect.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 11:03:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA02131 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA02066 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca(142.103.6.9) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@nnrp.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.4.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA05884 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:40:21 -0700 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA07662 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:40:16 -0700 >Received: by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 10:24:31 -0700 From: Brian Edmonds Message-Id: <199606251724.KAA26171@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: bbrown@dkmc.org's message of Mon, 24 Jun 96 09:38:34 EDT Subject: Re: List Etiquette X-Operating-System: Linux 1.99.7 #1-pre-2.0 Sat May 25 11:43:18 PDT 1996 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Brown writes: Bob> Is there a small list of list etiquette pointers I could "come Bob> across" and mail to the list? Thanks! I'm not sure if it's sufficiently small for you, but you're welcome to check out the list etiquette FAQ I wrote up for the lists I run. I don't actually post it to the lists, but the URL is in the list info file, and I occasionally post pointers to it when needed: Brian. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 12:21:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA14894 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA14833 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 12:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606251905.AA14695@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Etiquette -- large files? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 16:05:23 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Collins posts the following: Forwarded message: >Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:32:23 +0000 >From: John Collins >Subject: Re:List-Managers-Digest V5 #134 > > I have a pretty good doc I send to all new subscribers to one of my >lists. It's called "Electronic Mail Etiquette." It's from David Harris, the >author of Pegasus Mail. Very nicely done, addressing this and other issues. >I'm hesitant to post it to this list, as it's 12Kb in total size, but I think >you can find it online if you do a search via altavista or some place like >that. > > Biggest problem: the people who NEED it the most all seem to ignore it! ;) My brother showed me such a document, and I really think that very few people who are just learning the ropes are going to wade through a 12 Kb document, and if they do, much of it will not sink in. Also, mailing list etiquette is not the same as mail etiquette. There is overlap, but there are also big differences between writing to an individual and writing to a list. Just to throw in my two bits (worth <20 cents US at the present rate), for me the most important rule for mailing list subscribers is, "If you don't have anything to say, don't say it." Bill PS -- another good rule is to put meaningful subject lines on your postings, something better than "Re:List-Managers-Digest V5 #134". OK, John? -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 13:19:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA21123 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA21055 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bodhi.dorje.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP Received: (from alanf@localhost) by bodhi.dorje.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) id NAA13905 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:54:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Alan Fleming Message-Id: <199606251954.NAA13905@bodhi.dorje.com> Subject: advise needed on abuse policy To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 13:54:39 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 'lo list managers - I'm a sys admin for an Internet Service Provider. We're in the process of formulating a formal abuse policy (mail/news spams, warez, personal email attacks. etc) and I'm hoping some other ISPs have already done so and might be willing to provide some input. If anyone could/would like to comment, please send me private email. Thanks. -- Think Peace. - Alan (alanf@dorje.com) KotBBBB (1988 GSXR1100J) RaceBike (FT500) DOD# 4210 PGP key available From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 17:48:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA12029 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iquest.net (iquest4.iquest.net [206.53.230.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA12022 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 17:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ind-010-237-139.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers (to what?) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:34:25 -0500 Subject: List Etiquette Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.40) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here is the "Netiquette" list guidelines I send whenever someone joins my list. I have found this is very helpful for an overview of how lists in general operate. I don't know if Jeff made these up, but when he took over administration of the Mastercook lists he posted these and I thought (as a list manager) that they were very good and incorporated them into my list policy. Amy MAILING LIST GUIDELINES The following are general guidelines for your behavior as a member of the Machine-Knit Lists, as well as most other mailing lists. Your cooperation with these guidelines will be appreciated by the list moderators and fellow subscribers alike. BROAD INTEREST: Don't send personal replies to the entire list. The list has deliberately been configured so that replies by default do NOT go to the whole list. If you choose to override the default, please make sure that it is warranted, i.e., ask yourself if you are including information that would be of interest to the list _in general_. Even some information of general interest can be sent only to the requester, if the requester promises to post a summary. ETIQUETTE WHEN ASKING QUESTIONS: Request that answers be sent directly to you, and offer to post summaries of responses. Questions are fine--the access to a large number of people who might answer them (though not necessarily consistently :-)) is one of the biggest assets we have in the list. However, they also have the potential for generating a lot of list traffic with bits and pieces of answers. A good way to "get the best of both worlds," and also for those who ask for the information and presumably benefit from it to "return the favour" to the list, is to offer to post a summary or compilation of the information back to the list. Not only does this reduce piecemeal traffic, but your compilation may make an excellent article for inclusion in the M-K Archives, or FAQs that will be made available, or even so that other interested people can store all the pertinent information in one mail message. AVOID TRIVIA: Please refrain from trivial responses (usually characterized by being 1-2 lines long) after completely quoted posts. This is not to encourage you to be verbose if you can make a point concisely, but most 1-2 line responses of late have seemed rather trivial. When one is asking several hundred people to go through your message (and the dozens of lines of quoted material that typically accompanies these trivial messages), would it not behoove one to put at least a little thought into the content? Examples of trivial messages (unless accompanied by some further elaboration): "Me [sic] too!" "I'm not sure if I would agree with that." "Ha, Ha!" "I was wondering that too." These are probably appropriate if sent *just* to the original poster, but it really does little more than clutter up mailboxes if sent to the whole list. (Many _questions_ ARE 1-2 lines long and appropriately so--this guideline is not intended to apply to questions.) SILENCE MAY BE GOLDEN: There is nothing wrong with a silent list. OK, that's not an absolute for ALL lists. For example, for a startup list, some continuous traffic may be desirable just so that the list achieves critical mass of membership and volume, and does not die from inactivity. PROLIFIC POSTERS: Don't feel that you need to respond to _every_ message on which you have an opinion. A lot of good information comes from some of the most frequent contributors, and it is not atypical that the majority of people on the list are "lurkers," and are quite happy to remain so. But sometimes one sees an abundance of messages from the same person that fall into the "trivial" category and it is then especially annoying. One solution, if you really must add your two bits' worth to _everything_, is to assemble these responses into a file, and post it once a week. Even if you feel that you are making worthwhile and well-considered statements with every posting, try not to dominate the list with your own postings. FLAMES (DON'T): Don't send flames* to the list. [*Attacks, usually personal, typically going back and forth several times between the same two people, ad nauseum.] Just send it to the person you want to insult.:-) OK, so that removes most of the "satisfaction" one gets from flaming someone in public. Disagreements and controversy are fine and even healthy. But when these degenerate into personal attacks and nitpicking, then after the first round of disagreements has been aired, nothing new of value to the list membership is usually provided, and it is only egos that are being aired, and list members' patience that are being tried. Some people like to flame-bait. Don't fall for it! CONSIDERATION: Be aware of and considerate towards the _readers_. Consider that when one posts an article, one is ostensibly doing it either (i) for the benefit of the _other_ members of the list, or (ii) to gain benefit from the other members of the list. In either case, it seems that one should be considerate towards all these other people. There are many little things you can do--here is just one example: + Don't quote the entire article when mailing a follow-up note. It is rarely needed since most people have seen the original. If you must, do take the minute or two extra time to edit out all but the most pertinent part of the original article. If your own contribution is smaller than what you're quoting, you're probably quoting too much [also see Avoid Trivia]. If your mailer does not make it easy to do this, don't subject everyone else to its limitations. Learn how to save the file, edit it separately and read it back into your reply. Some people still have 2400 baud connections to their on-line services and this can make a _big_ difference! Most of the above was paraphrased and downright stolen with permission from Jeff Mayzurk of Arion/Sierra Software. Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 25 20:03:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA18659 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (fang.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA18608 for ; Tue, 25 Jun 1996 19:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/13May95-0346PM) Received: by msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft Mail From: "Gabb, Andrew" To: List-Managers Subject: Posting from MSmail Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 12:00:00 CST Message-ID: <31D19BD1@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all I am having a problem posting to a moderated list using MSmail (through an smtp gateway). It appears as if the 'Approved: password' line is not being recognised. An identical message from an smtp mailer (Trumpet) works OK. Any suggestions? Andrew ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== Andrew Gabb Andrew.Gabb@dsto.defence.gov.au Information Technology Division Defence Science and Technology Organisation Ph +61 8 259 5505 Fax +61 8 259 5980 171 Labs ITD/DSTO, P.O. Box 1500, Salisbury SA 5108, Australia From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 00:33:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA25285 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA25274 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 00:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA28215 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: ala@lunacity.com Subject: Re: Etiquette -- large files? From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:54:07 PDT In-Reply-To: Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) writes: > I like the list that was posted of a few items of mailing list > etiquette. I'd explicitly add one of the following sort: > > DO NOT POST ADMINISTRATIVE REQUESTS - Requests to add, drop, > or modify your subscription should not be sent to the entire list. > This wasts bandwidth as you and others will need to read and delete > such requests (which you can do nothing about). Requests should be > sent to . > > and also: > > USAGE OF THIS LIST FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES - This list is intented > to discuss . Please do not use it as a convenient > list for posting commercial messages or those not on the topic. > Those who abuse the list will be reported to their ISPs for potential > removal. > > Best, > Alyson > > From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 01:33:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA27647 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA27639 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 01:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom18.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:22:29 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom18 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Keeping lists totally private. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A mailing list to which I am subscribed, was recently spammed. << Nothing unusual there. >> The mailing list has never been publically announced on any internet site. << Other than subscribers, the lists existence is deliberatly kept unknown. >> Can anybody give me any clues as to where/how the spammer got the address? Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing lists on the internet from listing it? xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 03:48:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA05308 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA05029 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23245 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:20:33 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Holiday messages Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:12:27 GMT Message-ID: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Michelle Murrain wrote: > > Oh, and I send bi-weekly reminder messages, and in that message I >warn against vacation programs. I send a reminder before each major holiday period and encourage people in the FAQ to ask for their membership to be suspended when they're away. If mail of any sort bounces back and they've not told me, then I mark them as suspended myself. I've generally not had any problems with this, and most people do remember to let me know when they're going to be away; it also gives me the chance to appear nice and caring when I tell them to have a nice break. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 03:51:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA05306 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id CAA05042 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 02:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [193.128.226.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA23246 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:20:35 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: List Etiquette Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 09:17:01 GMT Message-ID: References: <9606240938.0.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have various things; one section of my FAQ is entitled "Why are people always arguing" ... e) Why are people always arguing? They're not, but it does sometimes seem like that. When you post, please make sure that you bear the guidelines in mind. In addition, the following points should be remembered: There are real people on the other side of the screen, and they can be hurt or upset just as much as you. You don't have to have the last word. If you feel that you must, please do so in private mail. uk-motss has hundreds of members, in different countries, of different ages, genders and sexualities. What appears reasonable or wierd to you may look very different from another perspective. Don't launch into an argument if you're not prepared to be challenged - in particular, theories need a sounder basis than 'Of course' to be valid. Try not to say something on uk-motss that you wouldn't say to people in a crowded room, face to face. When writing for uk-motss, be clear and concise. If you intend something to be humourous or ironic, read it carefully before sending. What seems obvious to you may not be to others. Personal insults are seldom seen as ironic by the person insulted. You may wish to use smilies (the ":-)" symbol) to indicate humour, but remember that telling someone you wish they were dead can hurt regardless of whether or not you put a smiley after it. Most good books about the Internet have a section on 'Netiquette,' which will form a sound basis for posting to uk-motss. If you have access to Usenet News, look for the guidelines that are posted regularly to news.announce.newusers -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 04:03:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA16632 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA16427 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA05490; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 03:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606261025.DAA05490@weber.ucsd.edu> To: grafolog@netcom.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: jonathon's message of Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:22:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Keeping lists totally private. Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 08:22:29 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon A mailing list to which I am subscribed, was recently spammed. << Nothing unusual there. >> Can anybody give me any clues as to where/how the spammer got the address? There are a couple ways I can think of: 1) from lists of lists; 2)) from usernames at the list site (where the usernames included aliases like the list name); 3) some kind of random name generator at a site. Note that the lists of lists need not be the official ones that people use to decdie what lists they want to subscribe to. Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing lists on the internet from listing it? Well, the only way to do that is to get all the members to agree never to tell anyone the list address. and if they bring in new people they have to get those people to agree. That did work for a list I was on once. The problem is that lists get out very fast, especially if they are on a specific topic. My mailing list, for example, is on every list of lists in existance, it seems. Including bunches Ive never heard of. And Ive only accounced it a few times. People talk on usenet or other mailing lists or even irc and private email. And they say, hey, theres a mailing list for that topic and heres the address. Normally, this is a good thing. But if you want your list to be private, you have to make that clear. And its easy to slip up and crosspost something too. The other way to keep lists private is to make sure the subscribing is done by hand or must be approved and when people ask to join tell them politely that it is a closed list. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 05:48:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA02722 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp12.netcom.com [163.179.3.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA02703 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private. To: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 05:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Cc: grafolog@netcom.netcom.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199606261025.DAA05490@weber.ucsd.edu> from "Cyndi Norman" at Jun 26, 96 03:25:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Cyndi Norman is alleged to have written => Well, the only way to do that is to get all the members to agree never to => tell anyone the list address. and if they bring in new people they have to => get those people to agree. That did work for a list I was on once. => => The problem is that lists get out very fast, especially if they are on a => specific topic. My mailing list, for example, is on every list of lists in => existance, it seems. Including bunches Ive never heard of. And Ive only => accounced it a few times. People talk on usenet or other mailing lists or => even irc and private email. And they say, hey, theres a mailing list for => that topic and heres the address. Normally, this is a good thing. But if => you want your list to be private, you have to make that clear. And its => easy to slip up and crosspost something too. => => The other way to keep lists private is to make sure the subscribing is done => by hand or must be approved and when people ask to join tell them politely => that it is a closed list. Or keep the list on a private machine, not an ISP, so it is a lot more difficult to run the name searchers. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | From hence, ye beauties, undeceived, james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Know, one false step is ne'er retrieved, | And be with caution bold. | Not all that tempts your wandering eyes | And heedless hearts is lawful prize; | Nor all that glisters gold. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 06:33:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA06084 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA06057 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606261310.AA19863@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:10:14 -0300 (ADT) In-Reply-To: from "jonathon" at Jun 26, 96 08:22:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk xan writes: > The mailing list has never been publically > announced on any internet site. << Other than > subscribers, the lists existence is deliberatly > kept unknown. >> > > Can anybody give me any clues as to where/how the > spammer got the address? > > Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > lists on the internet from listing it? Although you may have already covered this issue, I might point out that most mail servers have a command to identify all lists run at the site, and you have to make sure that your list is not shown. I don't know how other servers handle this, but with Majordomo there is a noadvertise feature in the configuration file that lets you suppress display of any list, either to anyone or to certain domains. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 06:48:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA07518 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA07482 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 06:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 9:34:00 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Per-site blocking? Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9606260934.aa02383@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know this has been bandied about before (and of course I saved none of it): How do you implement per-site blocking (or per-user) blocking in majordomo? I know this isn't the majordomo list, but it WAS discussed here (Krazy Kevin, I think). Please respond via email to me. Thanks! Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 16:18:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA01997 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp10.netcom.com [163.179.3.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA01990 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 16:15:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) Received: (from JIM.REMS@wattles.com) by wattles.com Message-Id: <000000040000221F@wattles.com> Reply-To: JIM.REMS@wattles.com Organization: Wattles Information Network From: JIM.REMS@wattles.com (JIM REMS) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: MS Mail Date: 26 Jun 96 15:40:52 PDT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone experienced any problems with MS Mail corrupting the "To:" field in the headers? I've received several rejected messages due to this corruption. Notice the quotes ("' '") in the example below. Any help is, of course, appreciated. -- Jim -------- From FLINGB@ms1.aes.com Mon Jun 24 18:25:52 1996 Received: from ag.aes.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA11545; Mon, 24 Jun 1996 18:25:52 -0700 Received: from ms1.aes.com (smtpgate.aes.com) by ag.aes.com (4.1/CERFnet-1.0) id AA10001; Mon, 24 Jun 96 18:19:31 PDT Received: by ms1.aes.com with Microsoft Mail id <31CED166@ms1.aes.com>; Mon, 24 Jun 96 18:33:26 - From: "Fling, Bill" To: "'info@wattles.com'" Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 18:25:00 - Message-Id: <31CED166@ms1.aes.com> Encoding: 1 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 ----------- Jacob F. 'Jim' Rems * Publisher * Wattles Publications Publishers of Books for Civil Engineers and Land Surveyors -------------------------------------------------------------- Voice: (714)832-5711 * Fax: (714)832-4169 * BBS: (714)832-7916 jfrems@wattles.com -+- info@wattles.com From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 26 20:03:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA15254 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA15247 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA19683; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:52:58 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199606251954.NAA13905@bodhi.dorje.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 22:47:24 -0400 To: Alan Fleming , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: advise needed on abuse policy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:54 PM -0600 6/25/96, Alan Fleming wrote: > I'm a sys admin for an Internet Service Provider. We're in the > process of formulating a formal abuse policy (mail/news spams, warez, > personal email attacks. etc) and I'm hoping some other ISPs have already > done so and might be willing to provide some input. > > If anyone could/would like to comment, please send me private email. Anyone interested in this sort of thing can contact established ISPs/NSPs/OSPs such as GEnie, MCI (mci.net), Uunet, or America Online. I'd recommend you take a look at what places like this have before you start seriously formulating what kind of policy you should have. In particular, you should carefully consider how your policy will affect your working relationship with other service providers. Towards that end, I'd recommend taking a close look at the policy that GEnie has, whereby they explicitly bind their users to not only their own policies, but also the policies of the folks at the other end. You should also carefully consider how you will deal with improper behaviour by indirect customers of yours (i.e., you serve another ISP, and a customer of that ISP does something bad). If you're not willing to hold that ISP responsible for what his direct and indirect customers do, odds are that the service provider(s) upstream from you will. And you really don't want to get your entire network cut off because of something that a downstream customer of yours does. I've had contact with all the of the major backbone providers in the U.S., and not one of them wants to get their entire network cut off from getting into our network, and if we can't get one of their customers to play nicely with us, we'll get that entire customer cut off by their service provider (basically, the old FidoNet scheme). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 00:03:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA22442 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 23:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (fang.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA22435 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 23:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/13May95-0346PM) Received: by msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft Mail From: "Gabb, Andrew" To: list-managers Subject: RE: MS Mail Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 15:46:00 CST Message-ID: <31D3271B@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Has anyone experienced any problems with MS Mail corrupting the "To:" field >in the headers? I've received several rejected messages due to this >corruption. Notice the quotes ("' '") in the example below. Any help is, >of course, appreciated. > -- Jim >-------- > >To: "'info@wattles.com'" This isn't really a corruption. It's what happens when you put a literal smtp address in the To box in MS mail, eg [smtp:info@wattles.com]. The first element is the name, the second is the address. Why this causes problems, I have no idea. (I can't post from MS Mail anyway.) If you create an smtp addressee in your address book called eg 'Info List' the To line looks like the following: To: "Info List" Andrew ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== Andrew Gabb Andrew.Gabb@dsto.defence.gov.au Information Technology Division Defence Science and Technology Organisation Ph +61 8 259 5505 Fax +61 8 259 5980 171 Labs ITD/DSTO, P.O. Box 1500, Salisbury SA 5108, Australia From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 01:18:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA25249 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA25235 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 01:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (root@bonkers.neosoft.com [206.109.2.48]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id DAA11635 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 03:07:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id DAA02236 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 03:07:00 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199606270807.DAA02236@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Keeping lists totally private. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 03:07:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi Norman: grafolog@netcom.com: > Can anybody give me any clues as to where/how the spammer got the address? > > There are a couple ways I can think of: 1) from lists of lists; 2)) from > usernames at the list site (where the usernames included aliases like the > list name); 3) some kind of random name generator at a site. Don't discount the web. I'm not sure of the nature of your list, but there are literally hundreds of web sites for the topic of one of mine. Prowling through them, I've found a couple dozen with hyperlinks to my majordomo. People often are confused when I ask them to remove the links. Try doing a Lycos search on your list and see if anything pops up. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 05:03:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA09289 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 05:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA09267 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 05:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id HAA16770 ; for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:58:23 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606271158.HAA16770@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: MS Mail To: JIM.REMS@wattles.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 07:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <000000040000221F@wattles.com> from "JIM REMS" at Jun 26, 96 03:40:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: JIM.REMS@wattles.com (JIM REMS) Has anyone experienced any problems with MS Mail corrupting the "To:" field in the headers? I've received several rejected messages due to this corruption. Notice the quotes ("' '") in the example below. Any help is, of course, appreciated. We had some trouble with this. There is rumor on the 'Net of MS products putting raw \146 codes out where ASCII or ISO-Latin-1 should be the rule. [I have seen this in HTML pages.] This character is the right-curly-single-quote in MS parlance, although not accepted by standards anywhere. My unverified hypothesis is that this was creeping into headers because someone had "smart quotes" on at the time that they were typing something that later wound up in an address book record. If this is the case, it may be possible for users to fiddle a "smart quotes" adjustment [turn smart quotes off in the relevant context] and MS Mail will use ASCII single-quote characters on both sides, as in the mail you sent. Al Gilman For more info on \146 vs. standards consult the June lynx-dev discussion archived at http://lynx.cc.ukans.edu/lynx-dev/ Search for "’" . From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 11:33:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA26581 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA26572 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:29:51 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01772 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) Message-Id: <9606271126.ZM2390@higgins> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:26:59 -0700 References: <199606270800.BAA24821@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > lists on the internet from listing it? In light of the First Ammendment, I'd have to answer "no". You can try _asking_ the lists to delete your mailing list but you can't enforce your request. --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 12:19:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02426 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA02410 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA11532 ; for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:09:55 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606271909.PAA11532@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private To: sullivan@fa.disney.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9606271126.ZM2390@higgins> from "sullivan@fa.disney.com" at Jun 27, 96 11:26:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: sullivan@fa.disney.com > Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > lists on the internet from listing it? In light of the First Ammendment, I'd have to answer "no". You can try _asking_ the lists to delete your mailing list but you can't enforce your request. This is not so cut and dried as that. Under Virginia law, at least, an individual has the rights to the use of their name. There is an [AFAIK pending] lawsuit that seeks compensation from a vendor of postal mail addresses under this Virginia law. This case is viewed by some as potentially precedent setting. Whether this would extend to a group identifying themselves under a mailing list is one of those Internet innovations where the law is yet to be determined. On the other hand, from a technical perspective if you really want to hide both the content of the discourse and the fact that it is happening from view, you should buy scramblers and cell phones and not waste your time on Internet email. [Best commercial practice. Ask your local drug posse.] A basic rule of Internet email has been "if you wouldn't want it on a poster on every third telephone pole with your name in large type, don't say it in Internet email." That is motivated by the technical issues I allude to above. The group should, like the individual email writer, stop and think if there isn't a way to say what needs to be said that bears repeating. This is a lesson I am just beginning to learn -- to clean up my act before uttering email. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 12:49:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05524 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA05413 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606271939.MAA05413@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9648; Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:36:24 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: note of 06/27/96 15:28 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al Gilman wrote: >This is not so cut and dried as that. Under Virginia law, at >least, an individual has the rights to the use of their name. >There is an [AFAIK pending] lawsuit that seeks compensation from >a vendor of postal mail addresses under this Virginia law. Not pending anymore, if the case you're referring to is the one where the guy subscribed to different magazines using different phony names for each to track how his name was being sold. The judge ruled against the guy about a week ago. I don't remember all the gory details of why, and I'm not sure if the guy will/can appeal, but that's the status. I do remember one part of the judge's opinion being something along the lines that the guy didn't have much of a case, since because the names were phony, the company selling those names weren't selling the guy's private information. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net WWW: http://www.worldweb.net/~jcanterb **** David Lee Roth is back with Van Halen! Life is good! **** From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 12:59:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05474 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA05410 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dlj (ts41-12.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.140.232]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id PAA06787; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606271930.PAA06787@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sullivan@fa.disney.com From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: First Amendment Craziness Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think the likelihood of any American appealing to the Constitution to make a point is pretty consistently in inverse proportion to their understanding of it. People who have not read it, perhaps because they cannot read like some of the Montana "Patriots," can be relied upon to scream "Constitution" pretty much full time. People who just have a hazy idea or two about it from Civics long ago can relied upon just to bring it up in some irrelevant way from time to time. Here Michael Sullivan appeals to the First Amendment -- which says nothing whatsoever about private individuals infringing upon the privacy of others -- to make a most dubious point. The Firt Amendment prevents Congress from passing any law which would stop someone from publishing something. This doesn't mean you can't sue them for their back teeth, plus costs, if you are a private individuals and they are infringing upon your rights. I don't know whether you would win on this one -- but I do know that the First Amendment has nothing to say about it. -dlj. At 11:26 AM 27/06/96 -0700, you wrote: >> Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce >> a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, >> how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing >> lists on the internet from listing it? > >In light of the First Ammendment, I'd have to answer "no". You can >try _asking_ the lists to delete your mailing list but you can't >enforce your request. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 13:04:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA06600 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA06579 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 12:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (root@bonkers.neosoft.com [206.109.2.48]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01576 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:45:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA12815 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:45:04 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199606271945.OAA12815@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:45:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > > a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > > how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > > lists on the internet from listing it? > > In light of the First Ammendment, I'd have to answer "no". You can > try _asking_ the lists to delete your mailing list but you can't > enforce your request. This is something that sort of bugs me, people who think the Internet is this free information exchange with no consideration of issues like copyright, etc. One thing the PAML gets criticized for is not listing every single list in existence. Putting the naivete of this thought aside, IMO, the wishes of the list owner have always been paramount. I've always honored requests to remove any list. It bothers me when I've run across a listing of my lists or the PAML and asked people to modify or remove them and gotten a hard time in return or had the request flat out refused or ignored. I do consider my mailing lists to be my personal intellectual property. Freedom of speech/information is irrelevent here; what happened to plain old common courtesy? From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 14:48:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA19421 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA19412 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.175.76.7] (ts1-07.netwalk.com [206.175.76.7]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet-v.1.5) with SMTP id RAA03913; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: postmaster@compuserve.com, postmaster@wow.com From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Compuserve and Wow: Enclosed is a recent letter I sent to my mailing list of over 1100 people regarding the technical ineptness of both compuserve.com and wow.com. I'm no expert on RFC822, but the way that you bounce messages is different from all standard 'net conventions, and is slowly convincing me to not allow your members to join my list (an action already taken by some other list owners). Your refusal to conform to standards is not helpful to your members. As such, I will continue to recommend that my members drop you as their ISP, and find a local ISP that will better meet their needs. Always, Dana K. Kressierer _____________________________________________________________ Dear AIML Listmembers: This is a notice to our members that if you receive a bounced message from wow.com or compuserve.com you should just ignore it. You do not need to resend your message to the list. Furthermore, if you are a wow.com or compuserve.com member and you suddenly stop receiving mail, it's because your mail is bouncing and creating problems for the list. When your mail bounces we turn off your mail settings so that we don't have to deal with your bounced mail anymore. To turn your mail back on please refer to your welcome message. Compuserve, which owns and runs the WOW service, uses a really bad mail program which does not conform to internet standards ITO bounced mail. As such, their mail often bounces to inappropriate places (e.g., to list members) rather than bouncing where it should (e.g., the list owners). This problem is getting bad. I'm not yet to the point of deleting all compuserve and wow users, but if things get much worse we may have to do that. It's nothing personal, but more and more lists are being forced to not allow compuserve and wow members to join only because these services are too ignorant or simply do not care enough about you, or us, to conform to simple internet standards for bounced mail (among other things). For those of you using compuserve and wow, I strongly suggest that you complain to your service provider (postmaster@compuserve.com or postmaster@wow.com) and let them know that your membership on this and other lists is in jeopardy because they cannot be bothered to follow simple 'net conventions. Too, complain about their unreasonable quotas on the amount of mail you are allowed to receive. If they didn't have such arbitrary message limits to begin with, most mail wouldn't bounce (this goes for AOL as well). Sorry for the rant, but I get really annoyed having to put up with compuserve.com and wow.com and their inexcusable technical problems. I'm not upset at any of our members who use these services, but I would like to suggest that you can find much less expensive, no quota, unlimited 'net access through a local ISP rather than any of the big companies. For a listing of local ISP's near you, head to: http://www.thelist.com/ Prices usually run around $20/month for *unlimited* email, www, telnet, irc, etc. If you cannot find a local ISP at that location, just call your nearest computer store and they will be able to put you in touch with such a service. Always, Dana Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Manager, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ I'm so glad that you came tonight. I sometimes worry that no one will show up, and without you, there would be little point in my being here. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 15:18:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23842 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA23835 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:09:38 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA14058 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) Message-Id: <9606271506.ZM2556@higgins> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:06:47 -0700 References: <199606271930.PAA06787@mail.inforamp.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > [Insulting and irrelevant remarks deleted.] > > Here Michael Sullivan appeals to the First Amendment -- which says nothing > whatsoever about private individuals infringing upon the privacy of others > -- to make a most dubious point. Neither did the original article. See below: > >> Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > >> a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > >> how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > >> lists on the internet from listing it? Invasion of privacy or suppression of free speech/press? > The Firt Amendment prevents Congress from passing any law which would stop > someone from publishing something. This doesn't mean you can't sue them for > their back teeth, plus costs, if you are a private individuals and they are > infringing upon your rights. So, if there's no law against publishing a list of mailing lists there's no problem? Which rights are being infringed? The right of someone to publish _information_ or someone who wants to keep a mailing list a secret? Hey, if you want to keep a mailing list a secret, peachy. Just try asking the people who are publishing the information if they'll exclude your list. I just don't think you're going to have any luck enforcing your request. --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 15:33:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA25293 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (bayflash.stpt.usf.edu [131.247.140.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA25275 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 15:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (johnson@localhost) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA22320 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:18:32 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 18:18:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Steven Johnson (BUS)" X-Sender: johnson@bayflash To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights In-Reply-To: <9606271506.ZM2556@higgins> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Jun 1996 sullivan@fa.disney.com wrote: > > >> Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > > >> a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > > >> how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > > >> lists on the internet from listing it? > > Invasion of privacy or suppression of free speech/press? > > infringing upon your rights. This is wishful thinking on my part. You can place a file called robots.txt on your web server. This file is consulted by automated spiders who go out and catalog web sites for their databases. Wouldn't it be nice (Big grin here) if "lists of lists" could automatically consult listservers, query one file, and catalog those listservs that do not have an equivalant of a robots.txt file? From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 16:18:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA28196 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA28188 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:11:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.4/mcb-960422) with SMTP id QAA05075; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <31D313B7.3092@postmodern.com> Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 16:05:36 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Reviews / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0b4 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Lloyd-Jones CC: sullivan@fa.disney.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Craziness References: <199606271930.PAA06787@mail.inforamp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > > I think the likelihood of any American appealing to the Constitution to make > a point is pretty consistently in inverse proportion to their understanding > of it. People who have not read it, perhaps because they cannot read like > some of the Montana "Patriots," can be relied upon to scream "Constitution" > pretty much full time. People who just have a hazy idea or two about it > from Civics long ago can relied upon just to bring it up in some irrelevant > way from time to time. > > Here Michael Sullivan appeals to the First Amendment -- which says nothing > whatsoever about private individuals infringing upon the privacy of others > -- to make a most dubious point. > > The Firt Amendment prevents Congress from passing any law which would stop > someone from publishing something. This doesn't mean you can't sue them for > their back teeth, plus costs, if you are a private individuals and they are > infringing upon your rights. > > I don't know whether you would win on this one -- but I do know that the > First Amendment has nothing to say about it. Sorry, but I think Mr. Sullivan is quite correct, and that the First Amemdment has *everything* to do with the issue. The Constitutional principle here is that in the absence of a very specific, narrowly-drawn legal exception, any law -- state or federal, civil or criminal -- which restricts or unduly chills freedom of expression is invalid. This applies to statutory and common-law rules regarding privacy rights, defamation, etc. as well as the more obvious penal laws like the CDA. For example, the US Supreme Court took a big chunk out of libel law in the _NY Times v Sullivan_ and _Gertz v Welch_ cases, holding that utterances that were clearly libelous according to previous common law of defamation were no longer actionable, because they were protected speech under the First Amendment. I believe that the same would be true for the expression referred to here, with respect to the laws of privacy. There is a common-law right to privacy, and invasion of this is generally actionable, but only to the minimum extent that can be achieved without restricting otherwise protected expression. I don't see anything in the canon of privacy law that would make publication of the existence of a private Internet mailing list actionable, and if this is the case, such publication would be protected under the First Amendment. This says nothing about the ethics or propriety of publicizing the list, but that's not the question. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 21:18:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA15991 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA15982 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA29708; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:12:29 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:04:10 -0400 To: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:34 PM -0400 6/27/96, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > Too, complain about their >unreasonable quotas on the amount of mail you are allowed to >receive. If they didn't have such arbitrary message >limits to begin with, most mail wouldn't bounce (this goes for >AOL as well). I won't comment on anything else, but I can say that allowing users to have a several hundred message backlog (totally multiple MB in size) is actually quite unusual, at least in my experience. I don't know about CompuServe, but this kind of system gets massively abused by users on AOL. Complaining about improper handling of bounces is 100% kosher, but a user having a full mailbox and causing mail to bounce because of it seems to be mostly a user problem, and one they need to take responsibility for themselves. And decent mailing list management software should automatically handle detecting these kinds of bounces (assuming the bounce message is handled properly) and deal with the offending users without needing your intervention. Listserv has had these kinds of features for a long time now, and most of the same kinds of features are either available out-of-the-box with recent versions of Majordomo, or are available as patches/additions from various third parties. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 27 23:03:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA20892 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.worldpath.net (unix.worldpath.net [206.152.180.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA20885 for ; Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from remote1-unex-cs-4.worldpath.net (remote1-unex-cs-4.worldpath.net [206.152.181.44]) by unix.worldpath.net (8.7.5/8.7.3(CICNet)) with SMTP id BAA06389 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 01:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 01:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606280551.BAA06389@unix.worldpath.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@unix.worldpath.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Bourbeau Subject: netiquette Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk John Collins asked: >> I'd like to give people a clue about things like quoting a 3-screen >> message to add, "Me, too!" without seeming to lecture them. >> >> Is there a small list of list etiquette pointers I could "come across" >> and mail to the list? Thanks! >> --Bob Brown Check out the 'notice of commission of sin' on Bob Crispen's Unoficial Allmusic page: http://hiwaay.net/~crispen/allmusic/index.html" What I do is save the letters I compose for another use. I have formletters for most of the major (quoting entire digest) and minor offenses. Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny "I just showed you my own personal hell, and you want me to show you heaven?" MM 3/24/96 ----------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.zipnet.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: bourbeau@worldpath.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@worldpath.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 01:36:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA28064 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA28045 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 00:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:45:43 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom13 To: "Steven Johnson (BUS)" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steven: On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Steven Johnson (BUS) wrote: > listservers, query one file, and catalog those listservs that do not have > an equivalant of a robots.txt file? Nice idea --- I'll suggest it to the site that carries the list I as talking about. Might be a little hard for it to do, since the site #1: Doesn't run on a *Nix Platform. #2: Is connected to the Internet via a UUCP connection. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com AOL coasters are unique, and colourful. Collect the entire set. From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 01:40:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA01760 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 01:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id BAA01531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 01:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from athenet.net (minerva.athenet.net [205.242.245.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA21732 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 13:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tech-mf@localhost) by athenet.net (8.7.4/8.7.4) with SMTP id PAA22997 for ; Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Mark Femal To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: HELP! moderated list setup Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I'm currently trying to setup a moderated mailing list and am running into some problems. I've read all of the documentation, and have setup a number of other mailing lists (none of which were moderated). It is working up to the point where the moderator recieves the mail that someone has sent to the list. But, when the moderater sends back to the list with the required "Approved: " to the list, it BOUNCEs back saying Invalid 'Approved:' header. I'm positive that the password is correct, and am sure permissions on all the files are setup properly. I thought it might have something to do with the mailer but I am using standard Berkeley Sendmail (8.7.4) to send the approved message. I'm using it on Solaris 2.5 and Perl version 5.002. I've tried using the actual approved line in various places including the first line and the first line in the body. I've read the docs (even have the camel book on Managing Internet Services), now I thought I would ask the pros :) Since I'm not currently on this list, please reply to me directly! Thanks for anyones time and patience. Mark E. Femal AthEnet Technical Support 414-954-9799 (general support) Programmer/Unix Tech 414-832-3709 (direct line) ============================================================================= http://www.athenet.net/~tech-mf From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 02:48:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13799 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA13771 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 02:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:40:13 +0100 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Keeping lists totally private Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DRA Malvern, UK References: <199606270800.BAA24821@miles.greatcircle.com> In-reply-to: <9606271126.ZM2390@higgins> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:39:52 +0100 Message-ID: <28537.835954792@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9606271126.ZM2390@higgins>, sullivan@fa.disney.com writes: > > Can anybody provide pointers as to how to enforce > > a no-announce policy for the list --- specifically, > > how to prevent any/all of the various lists of mailing > > lists on the internet from listing it? > > In light of the First Ammendment, I'd have to answer "no". Ahem, what first ammendment ? > You can try _asking_ the lists to delete your mailing list but you can't > enforce your request. This is true, although I would consider it common courtesy to honour such a request from the owner of the list. cheers, Chris -- Christopher Samuel, IT Vulnerabilities Group, chris@rivers.dra.hmg.gb N-115, Defence Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Great Malvern, England, UK DISCLAIMER: I write only for myself, not for DRA. Phone: +44 1684 894644 +MIME+ +PGP+ From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 04:34:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA25329 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA25304 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 04:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.175.76.4] (ts1-04.netwalk.com [206.175.76.4]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet-v.1.5) with SMTP id HAA22772; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 07:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brad Knowles From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:04 AM 6/28/96, Brad Knowles wrote: > I won't comment on anything else, but I can say that allowing >users to have a several hundred message backlog (totally multiple MB >in size) is actually quite unusual, at least in my experience. I >don't know about CompuServe, but this kind of system gets massively >abused by users on AOL. I am the first to admit that I don't run an ISP, and that I don't know the technical details about it. What I do know is that I've yet to run into a local ISP here in Columbus, OH who limits the amound of mail that I can receive. As long as it is all downloaded on a regular basis, what do they care? Memory is cheap. One of my ISPs, though it doesn't have a limit per se, does charge for bandwidth over a certain level... this allows me to still get *all* my mail but makes me pay for anything over a certain level per month (I've yet to hit that level, despite the fact that I receive hundreds of messages per day). My problem with AOL/Compuserve/Wow is that their limit (100 or so messages) is so low! If a member of AIML, which generates over 70 messages per day, is using Compuserve/AOL/Wow he or she is set to nomail quite often due to "full mailboxes." This problem certainly does not occur as frequently with any other ISP through which our members subscribe to AIML. It's definately, in my experience, a problem unique to those three services. > Complaining about improper handling of bounces is 100% kosher, >but a user having a full mailbox and causing mail to bounce because >of it seems to be mostly a user problem, and one they need to take >responsibility for themselves. I do agree, at least in theory. But I also think that A/C/W contributes greatly to this problem by setting such low limits. Do they have any justification for their ~100 message limit? I guess I just don't feel that ~100 messages/day is all that unusual for a lot of users, especially those on AIML. But, as stated above, I'm no expert on the maintenance of an ISP. And decent mailing list management >software should automatically handle detecting these kinds of bounces >(assuming the bounce message is handled properly) and deal with the >offending users without needing your intervention. We use listserv. What it is currently set to do is send the bounced mail to one of our list managers who, at her discretion, sets the offending account to digest or nomail. In extreme cases, the user is dumped altogether. If you know of more automatic ways to handle this, I'd appreciate your comments (off-list would probably be better). I don't deal with our bounced mail unless it's from Compuserve/Wow and, as such, directly effecting our list members or list management. I might be missing the boat here, and not really understanding the need for a ~100 message limit. All I do know is that the majority of our user problems stem from Compuserve and Wow, with AOL heading up the rear. The problems are mostly due to bounces, but the mail limits are an annoying secondary issue. Thanks for your comments, Brad! :-) Dana Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Manager, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ I'm so glad that you came tonight. I sometimes worry that no one will show up, and without you, there would be little point in my being here. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 05:04:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA00293 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA00237 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:02:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id IAA19930; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:00:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:00:04 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199606281200.IAA19930@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: sullivan@fa.disney.com Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So, if there's no law against publishing a list of mailing lists there's no >problem? Which rights are being infringed? The right of someone to publish >_information_ or someone who wants to keep a mailing list a secret? Hey, >if you want to keep a mailing list a secret, peachy. Just try asking the >people who are publishing the information if they'll exclude your list. I >just don't think you're going to have any luck enforcing your request. Hmm...for the sake of argument, let's say that we slap a "For Member Use Only" label on the mailing list. How would this differ from the "For Official Use Only" classification used in US Army publications or the "For Internal Use Only" classification used throughout the corporate world? I know that individuals have been successfully prosecuted for misuse and/or rebroadcast of corporate "For Internal Use Only" information. Might we not have a better position with a "For Members Only" label on our mailing list? --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 06:49:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA07279 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunams.usma.army.mil ([129.29.199.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA07252 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 06:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1e6244.usma.edu ([129.29.135.5]) by sunams.usma.army.mil (4.1/25-eef) Message-Id: <9606281336.AA11417@sunams.usma.army.mil> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1e6244@sunams> From: "Mr. Erich L. Markert" <1e6244@sunams.usma.edu> Organization: USMA, DOIM-? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:36:03 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights Reply-To: 1e6244@sunams.usma.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Big difference. FOUO type materials are never put on the Internet. It's against Army regulations. Starting a mailing list on the Internet is by nature asking for the public to participate, that's what a mailing list is all about. If you want a mailing list and you want it private then make your list moderated and closed. However, there is no solution that will prevent people from finding out the mailing list address. > Hmm...for the sake of argument, let's say that we slap a "For Member > Use Only" label on the mailing list. How would this differ from the > "For Official Use Only" classification used in US Army publications > or the "For Internal Use Only" classification used throughout the > corporate world? > -- __________________________________________________________ Mr. Erich L. Markert markert@www.usma.edu Webmaster TEL (914)938-6463 Directorate of Information Management FAX (914)938-7308 United States Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 10:36:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA21162 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA21144 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA13817; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:16:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:16:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: Dana Katherine Kressierer cc: Brad Knowles , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > I am the first to admit that I don't run an ISP, and that I don't > know the technical details about it. What I do know is that I've > yet to run into a local ISP here in Columbus, OH who limits the > amound of mail that I can receive. As long as it is all downloaded > on a regular basis, what do they care? Memory is cheap. One of my Memory is cheap, agreed. BUT, if you have one million users (yes yes, not all use their maximum) then adding memory to support them all becomes expensive. Also, don't forget the added tech support, replacement of equipment, etc etc. Buying a few gigs doesn't cost much, but then they would need more than a few gigs for such a userbase. > My problem with AOL/Compuserve/Wow is that their limit (100 or so > messages) is so low! If a member of AIML, which generates over > 70 messages per day, is using Compuserve/AOL/Wow he or she is set > to nomail quite often due to "full mailboxes." This problem > certainly does not occur as frequently with any other ISP through > which our members subscribe to AIML. It's definately, in my > experience, a problem unique to those three services. That's where the concept of digests come in. Turn those 70 messages/day into 1 message/day! Yes, you don't get them instantly, but you also don't risk losing other messages. > > Complaining about improper handling of bounces is 100% kosher, > >but a user having a full mailbox and causing mail to bounce because > >of it seems to be mostly a user problem, and one they need to take > >responsibility for themselves. > > I do agree, at least in theory. But I also think that A/C/W contributes > greatly to this problem by setting such low limits. Do they have > any justification for their ~100 message limit? I guess I just don't > feel that ~100 messages/day is all that unusual for a lot of users, > especially those on AIML. But, as stated above, I'm no expert on > the maintenance of an ISP. Every ISP has the right to implement whatever policies it wants. If they want to set 100 messages as the limit, that's their call and right. BUT, they should be following Internet norms. I believe that is the only "beef" we can have with them. end ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 10:50:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22587 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunams.usma.army.mil (sunams.usma.army.mil [129.29.199.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA22578 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1e6244.usma.edu ([129.29.135.5]) by sunams.usma.army.mil (4.1/25-eef) Message-Id: <9606281738.AA25586@sunams.usma.army.mil> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1e6244@sunams> From: "Mr. Erich L. Markert" <1e6244@sunams.usma.edu> Organization: USMA, DOIM-? To: jonathon , list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:41:05 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights Reply-To: 1e6244@sunams.usma.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jonathon, You misread my post. I said Internet, not intranet. There are certain precautions that can prevent an intranet based mail list from being publicly known. > Run a mailing list on an intranet. An employee is transferred > to an office that is not directly connected to the companies > intranet. S/he gets a non-intranet address. > -- __________________________________________________________ Mr. Erich L. Markert markert@www.usma.edu Webmaster TEL (914)938-6463 Directorate of Information Management FAX (914)938-7308 United States Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 10:53:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22434 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA22420 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 17:34:51 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon To: "Mr. Erich L. Markert" <1e6244@sunams.usma.edu> cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: First Amendment Rights In-Reply-To: <9606281336.AA11417@sunams.usma.army.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Erich: On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Mr. Erich L. Markert wrote: > It's against Army regulations. Starting a mailing list on the > Internet is by nature asking for the public to participate, that's Run a mailing list on an intranet. An employee is transferred to an office that is not directly connected to the companies intranet. S/he gets a non-intranet address. Does that automatically mean that the mailing list becomes publically acessible? I think not. Should anybody that keeps a list of mailing lists be allowed to state that this list is available to all who subscribe, even though the list was set up for internal use only? Speaking of people who keep lists of lists, do any of them ever check the accuracy of anything on their lists? xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com AOL coasters are unique, and colourful. Collect the entire set. From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 12:33:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA01589 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA01580 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (alancz@hou-tx8-11.ix.netcom.com [204.32.167.75]) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA24653 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:27:45 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:27:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199606281927.MAA24653@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: First Ammendment To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >jonathon wrote: >> >> Starting a mailing list on the >>> Internet is by nature asking for the public to participate, that's >------------ I run an Internet mailing list. It's a private, by-invitation list. Only the listowners can subscribe new people to the list. Non-subscribers cannot post to the list.......... nor can non-subscribers access the archives, or review the names of the subscribers to the list. When you send a command to the server requesting the names of all the lists that are hosted, the name of my list does not show up. Starting a mailing list on the Internet does not neccessarily mean that the general public is invited............ Alan Cz PS I realize that as our messages travel thru the Internet, server administrators could read the mail from my list, but for our purposes it is private enough, we don't have any top-secret info to send...... From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 13:19:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA04809 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA04789 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id PAA28027; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 15:04:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199606282004.PAA28027@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: First Ammendment To: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 15:04:47 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199606281927.MAA24653@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> from "Alan Czarnek" at Jun 28, 96 12:27:45 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Czarnek said... | |I run an Internet mailing list. | |It's a private, by-invitation list. Ditto. The only way anyone can find out about this list is if a list member tells them, they monitor all email flowing through a backbone, or they as postmaster/etc get a bounce with the message appended (boo hiss!), or something is royally hosed and they get email not meant for them. And then, they have to get past the list owner to join. Yes, they could tap my line, catch all the email, and then gateway it to a list of their own, or just add their recipients, and spoof their way in, but it's a lot of work, and at least in this country [1], I could sue their fannies off *and* have them put in jail for a while [2], or maybe just blow them up. [3] [q] -Miles [1] Texas [2] where they would be unable to sit down, but not having a fanny could come in handy, so maybe I wouldn't be that nice [4] [3] this being Texas and all [4] that was prison-rape-bashing, not gay-bashing [q] 8^) From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 22:03:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA06297 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA06074 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA23190; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:57:07 -0400 Message-Id: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:26:57 -0400 To: brozen@netvoyage.net, Dana Katherine Kressierer From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:16 PM -0400 6/28/96, Brock Rozen wrote: >Memory is cheap, agreed. BUT, if you have one million users (yes yes, not >all use their maximum) then adding memory to support them all becomes >expensive. Also, don't forget the added tech support, replacement of >equipment, etc etc. Buying a few gigs doesn't cost much, but then they >would need more than a few gigs for such a userbase. Actually, it's been our experience that it's cheaper for us to buy hundreds of GB of disk space than it is to expect the users to buy comparable disk space for installation on their various local machines (as capacity goes up, the cost per MB goes down). Of course, we can't spend infinite amounts of money to permanently solve this problem for the entire Internet, but lots of disk space is significantly cheaper if you can buy in bulk. But, we have to draw the line somewhere. And wherever you draw that line, it will be largely arbitrary. As the maximum size goes up, the number of users who bump into that limit gets asymptotically small, but they're still there. And if you're still growing very quickly (I won't say exponentially), then this number of users quickly bumps right back up to where it was when you last boosted the limit. Thus, reinforcing the point that any kind of limit is, by necessity, an arbitrary one. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 28 22:08:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA06294 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA06013 for ; Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA23168; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:57:01 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:21:33 -0400 To: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:23 AM -0400 6/28/96, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: >My problem with AOL/Compuserve/Wow is that their limit (100 or so >messages) is so low! ON AOL, I believe the limit is something like 300 or 400 messages. That's quite a lot to wade through, and we also have flash sessions which allow users to download all their mail to their local machine, in much the same way POP3 lets you download all your messages so that you can read and respond to them offline with Eudora. If you do your flashsessions reasonably frequently, then you have the same situation as when you do POP3 sessions frequently to download your mail -- your mailbox is never full. > If a member of AIML, which generates over >70 messages per day, is using Compuserve/AOL/Wow he or she is set >to nomail quite often due to "full mailboxes." Mailing lists that have this kind of traffic should have digests, and users on systems that limit the number of messages a user should subscribe to them. Alternatively, mailing lists with this kind of traffic should be gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups, where users can hop on and off at will, and read messages as they get a chance, but don't have their mailbox get filled by too many messages sent per day. The use of digests will be significantly improved when more places have Mail User Agents that understand "standard" digest format and can re-explode them back into individual messages. This *will* happen (if nothing else, as more places support "standard" programs like Eudora 3.0). > This problem >certainly does not occur as frequently with any other ISP through >which our members subscribe to AIML. It's definately, in my >experience, a problem unique to those three services. We have six million users (approximately 20% of the entire Internet, at least according to estimates I've heard). Any place that has this many users will have more problems than any other, simply because they have more users than any other. Compare the number of problems you have with our users relative to how many users we have, and how many users we have that are subscribed to your list, and I think you'll find that our "problem" rate is roughly about the same per user as the average for the list. What we typically don't have is system-type problems, because if we have a problem that stops all mail from getting through, you better believe that we hear about it and fix it fast (you really don't want to be responsible for losing two or three million messages, trust me). I guess we trade system-type problems that are more likely for other sites to have for more user-type problems, but overall, I honestly think that we're probably at or somewhat below your average error rate. >I do agree, at least in theory. But I also think that A/C/W contributes >greatly to this problem by setting such low limits. Do they have >any justification for their ~100 message limit? I guess I just don't >feel that ~100 messages/day is all that unusual for a lot of users, >especially those on AIML. But, as stated above, I'm no expert on >the maintenance of an ISP. I can't speak for other companies, but when you survey the total number of users that we have that have full mailboxes, it's a surprising small percentage of our users (percentagewise, I think it's down in the single digits), and we know that most of those accounts belong to people who are illegally trading commercial software by email. The problem is that certain email "offenders" are more likely to get themselves on a lot of high-traffic lists, and then suddenly go away for a short period of time, and be unable or unwilling to properly deal with the consequences (and unable or unwilling to take the responsibility for making sure that these kinds of problems don't occur in the first place, by properly unsubscribing/setting NOMAIL before they leave). >We use listserv. What it is currently set to do is send the bounced >mail to one of our list managers who, at her discretion, sets the >offending account to digest or nomail. In extreme cases, the user >is dumped altogether. If you know of more automatic ways to handle >this, I'd appreciate your comments (off-list would probably be >better). I don't deal with our bounced mail unless it's from >Compuserve/Wow and, as such, directly effecting our list members >or list management. Listserv is a very capable, industrial-strength program for doing mailing list management. If there's anything to change, it's only in the way of configuration, not the program itself (unless you're not running the latest version of Listserv, which adds such new features as understanding the Internet de-facto standard ".sig" separator of a pair of dashed lines). Unfortunately, although I run several lists hosted with Listserv, most of our management/configuration of Listserv is done by people whose sole job in life is doing that, and I don't know much about it. You do bring up the very valid point that perhaps we should allow users to have more than a certain number of messages in their mailbox, but we should charge them extra if they go over that limit. I know that we do have a higher internal limit for certain system accounts, and if we could make that a "hard" limit, while the current limit is a "soft" one, then I think the only changes that would be required would be accounting changes. And we could turn this into a profit center, too (of course, we'd let users choose to make the smaller limit a "hard" limit, so that they couldn't possibly be charged extra). I'll see if I can't take this idea to our management, but if you like it as well, I recommend you send your comments to "SteveCase@aol.com", as we have a whole team of folks who read that mailbox and handle customer suggestions. >I might be missing the boat here, and not really understanding the >need for a ~100 message limit. All I do know is that the majority >of our user problems stem from Compuserve and Wow, with AOL heading >up the rear. The problems are mostly due to bounces, but the mail >limits are an annoying secondary issue. The bounces are simply a matter of them just flat screwing up their SMTP listener program. As the second-busiest Internet email site in the world, problems of this sort are greatly magnified. You better believe that we're listening to the problems people are having with CompuServe, and we're paying attention (of course, it's my belief that we never would have made that mistake in the first place, but that's irrelevant to this discussion). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 01:06:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA14810 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA14803 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 01:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20424; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606290759.AAA20424@weber.ucsd.edu> To: brad@his.com CC: cubabe@netset.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Brad Knowles's message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:21:33 -0400 Subject: AOL (was: wow.com and compuserve.com) Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:21:33 -0400 From: Brad Knowles Brad, thanks for posting all this great info. If you do your flashsessions reasonably frequently, then you have the same situation as when you do POP3 sessions frequently to download your mail -- your mailbox is never full. Unless email/net access is not all that important to you and you "forget" to log in for a week or two...regularly. I mean, it's hard for us diehards to remember not having the net in our lives :-)) but lots of people just don't treat logging in in the same way. Yes, I know, people like that shouldn't subscribe to large or even medium-sized mailings list... But if they don't get the culture, it's hard to expect them to get the culture... Mailing lists that have this kind of traffic should have digests, and users on systems that limit the number of messages a user should subscribe to them. Alternatively, mailing lists with this kind of traffic should be gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups, where users can hop on and off at will, and read messages as they get a chance, but don't have their mailbox get filled by too many messages sent per day. I wanted to comment here. I've decided (and the subject comes up on my list every 6 months or so) not to gateway to usenet. A few ISP's though do gateway my list to local groups. A large percentage of my subscribers (about 25%) were from AOL and they disporportionately bounced and unsubscribed due to volume (about 20 posts/day). So I wrote AOL and now my list is echoed to the "usenet" but local to AOL (aol.lists.immune). This helped tremendously. The people who want to read but can't really keep up, can still see posts. The people who are only interested in a few of the messages can easily browse the subject headers. One of my worries with a usenet feed was that the volume of posts would increase dramactically, especially the "me too" style of posts. But I only get a handful of posts a month from the AOL news browser. We have six million users (approximately 20% of the entire Internet, at least according to estimates I've heard). Any place that has this many users will have more problems than any other, simply because they have more users than any other. Compare the number of problems you have with our users relative to how many users we have, and how many users we have that are subscribed to your list, and I think you'll find that our "problem" rate is roughly about the same per user as the average for the list. Actually, I think the bounce rate is about the same per user (higher for full mailboxes, but almost absent for system errors or even connection errors; oh and lots higher on unknown users). But I'd say a disporportate number of problem *users* come from AOL (due to the ease of getting an account, the ease of extra account names, and the freebie sign-ons). What we typically don't have is system-type problems, because if we have a problem that stops all mail from getting through, you better believe that we hear about it and fix it fast (you really don't want to be responsible for losing two or three million messages, trust me). I guess we trade system-type problems that are more likely for other sites to have for more user-type problems, but overall, I honestly think that we're probably at or somewhat below your average error rate. agreed The problem is that certain email "offenders" are more likely to get themselves on a lot of high-traffic lists, and then suddenly go away for a short period of time, and be unable or unwilling to properly deal with the consequences (and unable or unwilling to take the responsibility for making sure that these kinds of problems don't occur in the first place, by properly unsubscribing/setting NOMAIL before they leave). This is a *huge* problem. I maintain my list by hand (don't ask!) and am behind on new subs right now (long story(ies)!) and find that about 20-40% of sub requests from aol result in unknown user bounces at the point they get on to the list. I'm guessing most of those are from people using the free 10 (or 15) hr accounts. these are usually internet newbies who have no clue what a mailing list is. They do a search for a keyword on yahoo, find my webpage, and think it'd be fun to subscribe to this list, and then they send me mail and ask to get on the list. I wish those freebie accounts had more restrictions... Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 07:33:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA28518 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 07:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA28511 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.175.76.14] (ts1-14.netwalk.com [206.175.76.14]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet-v.1.5) with SMTP id KAA20923; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 10:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brad Knowles From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:21 AM 6/29/96, Brad Knowles wrote: >At 7:23 AM -0400 6/28/96, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: [snip Brad's discussion of AOL message limits] Thanks for the info, Brad. I really didn't know that AOL allowed for so many (~300 to 400) messages to be stored by its users. My list must just have a lot of AOL people that rarely check their mail... lucky me! :-/ > Mailing lists that have this kind of traffic should have digests, >[snip]... should be gatewayed to Usenet newsgroups. Our list is offered via digest, but we don't force anyone to use that method. Some people like it (me), others don't, so they have the option of subscribing via individual, digest or index setup. Since a significant portion of our members are not email/net/list enlightened they choose the easiest method... individual (default) which results in a lot of bounced mail! :-( As for a Usenet gateway... we are a private list so that is not an option. There are a lot of NG's that cover our topic, but for some reason people like the list... even those who can't keep up with the volume. There is a sense of intimacy that our members get that they don't find on the NG's (which is really ironic since we've got ~1200 members - hardly an intimate croud!) > [snip AOL has 20% of the net population] Compare the >number of problems you have with our users relative to how many users >we have, and how many users we have that are subscribed to your list, >and I think you'll find that our "problem" rate is roughly about the >same per user as the average for the list. I will disagree only in that those people who use local ISP's, for example, need to know a bit more about the 'net/email/etc than does your average AOL/Compuserve/Wow/Prodigy member, IMO. The 'big' services come already set up, for the most part, and don't require the user to know much (if anything!) about how their programs actually work in order to gain access to the 'net. People who use freenets, local ISPs, and other non-spoon-fed services often need to know more about the net and their software just to use the system (hence, they are less likely to come to me with easily-solved problems). > What we typically don't have is system-type problems, because if >we have a problem that stops all mail from getting through, you >better believe that we hear about it and fix it fast (you really >don't want to be responsible for losing two or three million >messages, trust me). Unfortunately though, I hear about it too. When ever one of the big systems (and AOL has been guilty of this a few times in the past) has a mail problem my list gets *flooded* with "Why did you turn off my mail?" messages from users of the down service. Again, it's just an indication that the larger systems cater to less net-savvy people... people who don't necessarily understand how email/lists work, and don't know to whom they should turn with their problems (you would not believe how many 'newbies' believe that *I* have something to do with their email account -- I get requests to find their lost personal mail, change their account type/size/settings, fix their software or teach them how to use it, etc.). I think I should start submitting bills to the online services for whom I give technical assistance! :-) [snip, AOL users with full mailboxes are few] I really did not know this, Brad. I have to admit that we have problems with many AOL users and bounced mail (but nearly as bad as our problems with Compuserve and Wow). > And we could turn this into a profit center, too (of course, we'd >let users choose to make the smaller limit a "hard" limit, so that >they couldn't possibly be charged extra). I'll see if I can't take >this idea to our management, but if you like it as well, I recommend >you send your comments to "SteveCase@aol.com", as we have a whole >team of folks who read that mailbox and handle customer suggestions. Hey... do I get royalties if Steve uses my ideas? How about a job with AOL? I'm currently on the market... :-) > The bounces are simply a matter of them just flat screwing up >their SMTP listener program. As the second-busiest Internet email >site in the world, problems of this sort are greatly magnified. You >better believe that we're listening to the problems people are having >with CompuServe, and we're paying attention (of course, it's my >belief that we never would have made that mistake in the first place, >but that's irrelevant to this discussion). I do agree, and I don't mean to bash AOL as much as I have (in fact, I think AOL is heads above Compuserve and Wow, at least ITO system setup). I was unaware of AOL's higher message limit, and think that ~300 (or whatever) is probably fine. You are right... the problems of the huge services are magnified (I'd guess that upwards of 25% of my membership is AOL) when those people are represented in such large proportions. I don't know what the solution is. Unlike my boyfriend (Mr. Computer Programmer/Perl Junkie/'Net Elitist), I think the large services have done a great job of making the 'net available to the masses and that this is laudable for the most part. However, like when the AT&T lines go down for a day... the problems that result from such huge corporations offering so many people service often makes 'net life unmanageable. Compuserve's refusal to comply with simple bounced mail conventions, for example, creates total havoc on my list at times. And when AOL does go down, my mailbox can be filled for days with AOL users asking me to fix their problems. So, I still tell people how to find the local guys. The ISP's who charge flat rates, offer free software, and give unlimited email/net access. And they cause me a lot less headaches! :-) Always, Dana Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Manager, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ I'm so glad that you came tonight. I sometimes worry that no one will show up, and without you, there would be little point in my being here. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 09:48:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA02663 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from e55.webcom.com (e55.webcom.com [206.2.192.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA02654 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 09:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606291646.JAA02654@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by e55.webcom.com From: Thomas Leavitt Subject: Real problem with AOL users. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 9:45:10 PDT X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The real problem with AOL users (and to a lesser extent, others) is when they *manage* mailing lists. The standard result, if their list is large, and active, and not well weeded of bad addresses, is *literally* megabytes of non-delivery notices, in the hundreds and thousands. Once those 300 or so AOL slots get filled up, guess where the mail gets delivered: postmaster. Ever come in one morning, and seen 273 megabytes of email in your postmaster mailbox? Not to mention the effects of a mailing list loop... Thomas -- Web Communications (sm) Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101 Vice President Web Communications Home Page From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 11:33:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA07311 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA07304 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id NAA03696; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:32:18 -0500 Message-Id: <199606291832.NAA03696@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: email problem, profitable solution To: SteveCase@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 13:32:18 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Howdy. I'm on a mailing list of mailing list administrators, and the subject of bounces from major service providers has come up lately. One of the problems we see is that when a user's mailbox fills up, we start getting bounces. Lots of them. We can always take the users off the lists, but (a) they lose messages and (b) we have no way to tell them thay have been removed (sincetheir mailbox is full) unless we just keep retrying every so often, which can become a major hassle, especially on a large list. I have a couple of suggestions as to remedies. 1) Instead of, or in addition to, limiting a user by number of email messages, you could limit by disk space used. Perhaps the user could choose which type of limit they want. 2) Offer a hard limit (as you have now) or a soft limit, with additional charges for additional messages. If a user chooses the hard limit, nothing changes from the way things are handled now. If the user chooses the soft limit, they are billed for the overage on a daily basis. You could handle this, say at $.10 per 10 messages (or fraction thereof) per day, or $.10 per MB (or fraction thereof) per day, or whatever your modles say you need to charge. The last idea could help generate revenue, as well. Just a few days of overage, while cheap for the user, would pay for each extra MB of storage. Everything else would be gravy for you. -Miles --------------------------------------------------- Miles O'Neal President meo@schoneal.com Schober O'Neal, Inc. 1011 Stobaugh St, Suite A / Austin, TX / 78757-1529 1-512-451-5531 (v) (f) 1-512-451-0513 http://www.schoneal.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 16:03:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22677 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA22667 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26988; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:58:37 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199606291646.JAA02654@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:49:08 -0400 To: Thomas Leavitt , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Real problem with AOL users. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:45 PM -0400 6/29/96, Thomas Leavitt wrote: >The real problem with AOL users (and to a lesser extent, others) is when they >*manage* mailing lists. > >The standard result, if their list is large, and active, and not well weeded >of bad addresses, is *literally* megabytes of non-delivery notices, in the >hundreds and thousands. Once those 300 or so AOL slots get filled up, guess >where the mail gets delivered: postmaster. Ever come in one morning, and seen >273 megabytes of email in your postmaster mailbox? Ever come in one morning and discover multiple GB of email in your Postmaster mailbox? I've been there. And the tools for dealing with email get less and less capable of dealing with the load as you get more and more mail. I submit that proper mailing list management software will deal with the non-delivery notices itself, sending a summary to the listowner on a configurable basis. This will avoid the problem you mention. Both Listserv and Majordomo should be more than competent in this area (properly configured, of course). >Not to mention the effects of a mailing list loop... See above. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 16:07:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22659 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA22650 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26969; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:58:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199606290759.AAA20424@weber.ucsd.edu> References: Brad Knowles's message of Sat, 29 Jun 1996 00:21:33 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:23:03 -0400 To: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL (was: wow.com and compuserve.com) Cc: cubabe@netset.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:59 AM -0400 6/29/96, Cyndi Norman wrote: >Actually, I think the bounce rate is about the same per user (higher for >full mailboxes, but almost absent for system errors or even connection >errors; oh and lots higher on unknown users). But I'd say a disporportate >number of problem *users* come from AOL (due to the ease of getting an >account, the ease of extra account names, and the freebie sign-ons). This is a problem that we're aware of, but the problem is more clueless newbies, and by virtue of our size, we have more of them than anyone else. I can't see any obvious solutions to this problem that wouldn't also result in putting ourselves out of business. But we're always willing to listen to suggestions that people may have. >This is a *huge* problem. I maintain my list by hand (don't ask!) and am >behind on new subs right now (long story(ies)!) and find that about 20-40% >of sub requests from aol result in unknown user bounces at the point they >get on to the list. I'm guessing most of those are from people using the >free 10 (or 15) hr accounts. these are usually internet newbies who have >no clue what a mailing list is. They do a search for a keyword on yahoo, >find my webpage, and think it'd be fun to subscribe to this list, and then >they send me mail and ask to get on the list. I wish those freebie >accounts had more restrictions... Yup, clueless newbies. But if we kept them from getting on the Internet until they had been successfully indoctrinated, then they wouldn't want to stay on the service (and we'd go out of business), because that process would take too long. People typically want instant gratification, which is part of what makes the free disk distribution successful. It's this instant gratification that actually makes the AOL gatewaying of mailing lists to Usenet newsgroups so successful -- people don't have to wait for their subscription to be processed before they can start reading and posting messages, and they can also get instant access to a certain amount of previous messages, so that they have some context for understanding what the list is about, what proper behaviour is, etc.... Obviously, this is something we think is positive, and will expand in the future. But, for those lists that aren't gatewayed to Usenet news (either locally at AOL or nationwide), the only thing I know of that can help is for the people running the lists to use full featured list management software that can take care of most of the details of subscribing users, dealing with bounces, etc.... -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 16:11:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22676 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA22658 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA26975; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:58:30 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 18:44:42 -0400 To: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:24 AM -0400 6/29/96, Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: >Our list is offered via digest, but we don't force anyone to use >that method. Some people like it (me), others don't, so they >have the option of subscribing via individual, digest or index >setup. Since a significant portion of our members are not >email/net/list enlightened they choose the easiest method... >individual (default) which results in a lot of bounced mail! :-( One thing that you might want to consider is subscribing people to the digest by default, and then to the reflector if they explicity request it. Alternatively, let people subscribe to whichever they like, but if they're on the reflector and their email bounces, you could subscribe them to the digest instead, and if they continue to bounce, then unsubscribe them entirely. >I will disagree only in that those people who use local ISP's, for >example, need to know a bit more about the 'net/email/etc than does >your average AOL/Compuserve/Wow/Prodigy member, IMO. The 'big' services >come already set up, for the most part, and don't require the user >to know much (if anything!) about how their programs actually work >in order to gain access to the 'net. I agree with this statement, but that indicates that the users of local ISPs are very much the exception as opposed to the rule, because less than ten percent of the entire US population is on the Internet, and most of them are using one of the big services. And most of those wouldn't know how to use a local ISP, even if you tried to tell them. As 'net access becomes more ubiquitous, it will also have to become easier to use (everything pre-set up, as you observe), because all the techies and many of the more intelligent people are online, and the people that are left are less 'net-savvy. >Unfortunately though, I hear about it too. When ever one of the big >systems (and AOL has been guilty of this a few times in the past) has >a mail problem my list gets *flooded* with "Why did you turn off >my mail?" messages from users of the down service. Again, it's just >an indication that the larger systems cater to less net-savvy people... We try to cater to everyone, net-savvy and otherwise alike. However, since less people are net-savvy than are, and that's where the growth in this market is, and we have more users than anyone else, that means that we also have more people who aren't net-savvy than anyone else. And this trend won't be going away, neither for us nor the entire Internet. > (you would >not believe how many 'newbies' believe that *I* have something to >do with their email account -- I get requests to find their lost >personal mail, change their account type/size/settings, fix their >software or teach them how to use it, etc.). I do understand. I run a few lists myself, and I get the same kinds of problems. But I also see a lot of clueless admins calling up and not following standard procedure to report problems to us, and taking literally months to get down to my level. And when we get down to figuring out the real problem, more often than not, it's a routing problem, and not an email problem per se. And when it is an email problem, it's almost always one of the same small set of problems we've run into before. I've debugged more problems with software I've never actually used than anyone else I know. I've seriously recommended that AOL set up a subsidiary to help sites all over the world work out and fix their problems, whatever they may be. And people would pay to use this service, because the people working there would have gathered the largest database in the world of typical problems and typical solutions, and done it the hard way (down in the trenches). And when we got a problem call, we might give them a certain amount of free time on this service, but if they want their problems solved beyond that, they'd need to pay. In my experience, 99% of all system problems are the fault of the ISP at the other end, or the NSP that the ISP uses to get onto the backbone (SprintLink is a *really* big offender here). >> And we could turn this into a profit center, too (of course, we'd >>let users choose to make the smaller limit a "hard" limit, so that >>they couldn't possibly be charged extra). I'll see if I can't take >>this idea to our management, but if you like it as well, I recommend >>you send your comments to "SteveCase@aol.com", as we have a whole >>team of folks who read that mailbox and handle customer suggestions. > >Hey... do I get royalties if Steve uses my ideas? How about a job >with AOL? I'm currently on the market... :-) Um, well, I'd have to argue with you as to whether this was your idea or not. ;-) Although there isn't a suggestion incentive program internal to the company yet, it's one of the things I'm working on (when we got a new Executive VP recently, he asked everyone in his group what their top five complaints were, and this was at the top of my list). And yes, we are always hiring. >So, I still tell people how to find the local guys. The ISP's >who charge flat rates, offer free software, and give unlimited >email/net access. And they cause me a lot less headaches! :-) For people that have the necessary technical skills and desire to figure out how things work, the local ISPs are an ideal solution. You'll notice that I use a local ISP (Heller Information Services) for my personal/home use, and I'm an extremely satisfied customer. I'll point anyone I run across that complains about AOL (and seems reasonably competent) to HIS or other ISPs I know. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 22:03:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA05277 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05199 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net(205.162.154.10) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA19541; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:47:10 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:47:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: Brad Knowles cc: Dana Katherine Kressierer Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 1:16 PM -0400 6/28/96, Brock Rozen wrote: > > >Memory is cheap, agreed. BUT, if you have one million users (yes yes, not > >all use their maximum) then adding memory to support them all becomes > >expensive. Also, don't forget the added tech support, replacement of > >equipment, etc etc. Buying a few gigs doesn't cost much, but then they > >would need more than a few gigs for such a userbase. > > Actually, it's been our experience that it's cheaper for us to > buy hundreds of GB of disk space than it is to expect the users to > buy comparable disk space for installation on their various local > machines (as capacity goes up, the cost per MB goes down). Of > course, we can't spend infinite amounts of money to permanently solve > this problem for the entire Internet, but lots of disk space is > significantly cheaper if you can buy in bulk. Oh, I definetly understand that. And yes, that's the point I was making. If you set a limit, you have to set it for everybody. As such, the line has to be drawn somewhere and people will always hit the limit, no matter what it is set to. It just has to be drawn at a reasonable place, and I have no gripes with any of the services for that. That is their decision to make. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 29 22:07:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA05748 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05723 for ; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA19913; Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:53:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 21:53:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: Brad Knowles cc: Thomas Leavitt , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Real problem with AOL users. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 29 Jun 1996, Brad Knowles wrote: > >The real problem with AOL users (and to a lesser extent, others) is when they > >*manage* mailing lists. > > > >The standard result, if their list is large, and active, and not well weeded > >of bad addresses, is *literally* megabytes of non-delivery notices, in the > >hundreds and thousands. Once those 300 or so AOL slots get filled up, guess > >where the mail gets delivered: postmaster. Ever come in one morning, and seen > >273 megabytes of email in your postmaster mailbox? > > Ever come in one morning and discover multiple GB of email in > your Postmaster mailbox? I've been there. And the tools for dealing > with email get less and less capable of dealing with the load as you > get more and more mail. I can relate. But also, I use a piece of software available on the net called procmail to filter my mail. It does a wonderful job and I divide up all kinds of list-manager related mail (bounces, approvals, subscription requests, etc) into different folders. Thus, I'm able to stay on one task and divide up my time much more efficiently. > I submit that proper mailing list management software will deal > with the non-delivery notices itself, sending a summary to the > listowner on a configurable basis. This will avoid the problem you > mention. Both Listserv and Majordomo should be more than competent > in this area (properly configured, of course). I think Listserv over does this area and Majordomo doesn't quite cover it well enough. I'd rather stick with Majordomo as what it covers I can pick up without too much of a burden (Actually, that's my prime job right now, but at least we don't lose valid subscribers). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Jun 30 03:33:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA17504 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.dircon.co.uk (mail2.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA17497 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 03:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diversity.org.uk (diversity.org.uk [194.112.46.199]) by mail2.dircon.co.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29464 for ; Sun, 30 Jun 1996 11:18:37 +0100 (BST) From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: ALL: wow.com and compuserve.com Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 10:12:33 GMT Message-ID: References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Dana Katherine Kressierer wrote: > >Our list is offered via digest, but we don't force anyone to use >that method. Some people like it (me), others don't, so they >have the option of subscribing via individual, digest or index >setup. Since a significant portion of our members are not >email/net/list enlightened they choose the easiest method... >individual (default) which results in a lot of bounced mail! :-( I don't force anyone, but I have ensured that the information about my lists that's available on AOL recommends digest to subscribers. Since it's a UK focussed list, I also state in the FAQ that "If you are outside Europe, in a time zone where you won't read message around the time they they're sent, we would prefer you to take the digest option. You should also take the digest if you don't log in to read your mail very often" This seems to have worked, and I don't tend to get very many bounces due to full mailboxes anymore. If people ask for messages and persistently cause bounces, I move them to digest myself; though with up to 6 digests a day, even that can cause problems after a while. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts *****