From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 11:04:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA12162 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maildeliver1.tiac.net (maildeliver1.tiac.net [199.0.65.213]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA12155 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by maildeliver1.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id NAA29737 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:58:00 -0400 Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA19686 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:01:52 -0400 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199609011801.OAA19686@worldmachine.com> Subject: net.id forged subscriptions To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:01:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone gotten to the bottom of these forged subscription requests for addresses at net.id (various ISP's in India)... they're coming from msu.edu. My Go West Digest mailing list has been getting bombarded with them. Thanks, Eric -- Eric J. Hansen .............................. http://www.worldmachine.com/eric Developer, Worldmachine Technologies ............ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 13:04:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA19422 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA19414 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id NAA11544; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3229EC29.4F60@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:06:15 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: net.id forged subscriptions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric J. Hansen wrote: > > Has anyone gotten to the bottom of these forged subscription requests > for addresses at net.id (various ISP's in India)... they're coming from > msu.edu. My Go West Digest mailing list has been getting bombarded with > them. Actually "net.id" is Indonesia, not India (.in). If you look closer at the header, most of them seem to have been injected from dial-up SLIP ports (possibly in Indonesia) on ibm.net, and sent *through* msu.edu. (The most recent one came via "dal.cleaf.com".) I have sent 2 complaints to postmaster@ibm.net and gotten a fancy response with a trouble-ticket number but no human there has actually responded, nor has anyone at msu.edu. I am going to start sending copies to the personal mailboxes of the domain contacts for both sites. I can't imagine that given the message header, the ibm.net people can't figure out who was using a particular SLIP port or dynamic IP address at a particular time, and admonish their customer. Copies of each are below. If IBM does not solve this in a reasonable time I am going to turn up the heat. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com > Received: from pilot02.cl.msu.edu (pilot02.cl.msu.edu [35.9.5.12]) by > server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id > XAA08486 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 > 23:37:10 -0700 (PDT) > From: paratama@idola.net.id > Received: from slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net > (slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net [202.135.7.67]) by pilot02.cl.msu.edu > (8.7.5/MSU-2.10) id CAA117582; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:37:03 -0400 > Message-Id: <199609010637.CAA117582@pilot02.cl.msu.edu> > DATE: 01 Sep 96 13:39:39 > TO: majordomo@server.postmodern.com > SUBJECT: subscribe jitr > > subscribe jitr > Received: from dal.cleaf.com (root@dal.cleaf.com [206.136.88.2]) by > server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id XAA08497 > for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 > 23:40:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: aal@idola.net.id > Received: from (slip202-135-7-67.jk.id.ibm.net [202.135.7.67]) by > dal.cleaf.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id BAA30250 for > ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:34:39 -0500 > Message-Id: <199609010634.BAA30250@dal.cleaf.com> > DATE: 01 Sep 96 13:43:01 > TO: majordomo@server.postmodern.com > SUBJECT: subscribe jitr > > subscribe jitr From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:27:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05470 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA05441 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA02605 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA28397 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:57:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199608302157.PAA28397@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Is the lists command legit? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:57:39 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a > biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical > oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography > and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I > commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical > oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, not from anyone else. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:30:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05310 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA04833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA29484 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA11720; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:36:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199608291415.JAA01347@pumpkin.tssi.com> References: <199608290822.DAA19152@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Aug 29, 96 03:22:09 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:05:51 -0400 To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: PAML mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:15 AM -0400 8/29/1996, Michael Nolan wrote: >I recently had someone on AOL subscribe to my two (closed) lists, post a >note about a list he was trying to start, at best tangentially related to >the subject of my two lists, (two college sports teams) then unsubscribe, >all in the same day. I'd call that hostile activity. Forward a note regarding this behaviour to abuse@aol.com. I won't guarantee that they'll cancel the turkey's account, but they should at least give him a good virtual spanking. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:36:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05534 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA05517 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.isdn.wwa.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA13677 for ; Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (localhost) by chinet.isdn.wwa.com ; 1 SEP 96 00:51:31 CDT Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:51:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers Subject: Headers needed for threading: passing through MLM software Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I subscribe to several mailing lists that are gated to Usenet. As you know, the "References: " header cites the message IDs of earlier articles the poster is quoting. This allows newsreaders like trn to present news articles to the user with true threading. As a courtesy to other Usenet readers, when I post a followup article through the mail-to-news gateway, I manually add "References: " message IDs. However, when I see my article propogated through Usenet or the mailing list, the header has been stripped. trn has no way to properly thread the article. Is this a "feature"? The mailing lists are managed on ListProc, ListServ, and Majordomo. I assume this happens at the MLM level, since I don't see the header on messages from the list. I don't know how the gateway is managed; I suppose it could happen at that level. I have yet to come across a MUA that threads e-mail messages. The "In-Reply-To: " header, where it exists, could be used to thread. My MUA, pine, adds this header to my replies. However, some MLMs delete it. I have noticed that this header is preserved with Majordomo, but is not passed through by ListProc. Is either header mandatory, either within Usenet or mail? Are there mandatory rules on the use of gateways, such that headers needed by one side are supplied by the other? Could an "In-Reply-To: " header be converted to a "References: " header, or vice versa? Is an "In-Reply-To: " header allowed to cite more than one message ID? From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:39:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA05542 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA04841 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA29476 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA11753 for ; Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:36:39 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 00:35:14 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: raphael@harborside.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, This guy apparently just junkmailed a large number of Role-Playing Game related mailing lists, including one I maintain. He went so far as to subscribe just long enough to junkmail everyone, and then unsubscribed. I don't presume to tell you how to run your lists, but I'd recommend putting him on your "Persona Non Grata" list and making sure that he doesn't manage to get himself subscribed to any list you maintain, because he's probably not going to learn his lesson any time soon. If you block all mail coming in from/going out to certain domains, you may also want to consider adding this one to your list, or at least notifying the postmaster at this site that you're going to be specifically looking for problems coming out of their site and will take swift and decisive action if you notice any. -Brad --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:49:38 -0800 To: palladium-frpg@skuld.gweep.net From: raphael@harborside.com (James West) Subject: The EMRoP needs YOU! Precedence: bulk Hi folks, I've created a service called the E-Mail Role-Playing (EMRoP) Network that provides links to RPG sites and most importantly has a growing group of GMs running PBEM games through it. As soon as I get more GMs and players it'll be real cool, but right now I only have a handful of both. So, I'm looking for people who want to either play or dedicate some time to running a game or two through my online service. If you're interested, please let me know and if you know anyone that might be, please give them my e-mail address and ask them to e-mail me. Thanks again. James the Charmer (www.harborside.com/home/r/raphael) --- end forwarded text -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:54:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09475 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thyme (thyme.finesse.com [140.174.171.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA09436 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by thyme (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA11660; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:53:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:53:50 -0700 From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Message-Id: <199609020053.RAA11660@thyme> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Sendmail X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I'm not a sendmail professional with umpteen years of experience under my belt. However, I would like to gracefully refuse email from particular parties and/or domains. I use standard sendmail that comes with Solaris. Can anyone point me to a good resource to learn about this? Thanks Mary Morris From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 17:58:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09631 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA09609 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA19395 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.7.5) id RAA00181; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609020049.RAA00181@eskimo.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run two RPG-related lists (one for game turns, one for discussion) for a PBEM group, similar to that EMRoP thing he junkmailed about. He was *very* briefly affiliated with the group I run the lists for (PBEM Factory), but we kicked him out after he obtained our subscriber list under false pretenses, then used it for advertising (something wholly against our policies). I have to agree with Brad Knowles, this guy bears watching. From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 20:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA17846 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA17821 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id WAA22822; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:54:24 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609020254.WAA22822@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609020053.RAA11660@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Sep 1, 96 05:53:50 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hi > > I'm not a sendmail professional with umpteen years of experience > under my belt. However, I would like to gracefully refuse > email from particular parties and/or domains. I use standard > sendmail that comes with Solaris. > > Can anyone point me to a good resource to learn about this? Not clear from your post whether you want to do this from your account or at a system level. Check out procmail. Even if sendmail delivers your mail, you can have it forwarded through procmail, which will give you incredible numbers of options. I use it to do very complicated mail sorting here. If you're a system administrator, then you could consider running procmail *instead* of sendmail; it can do that as well. Hope that helps, Stan. From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 1 23:24:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA26861 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.interramp.com (smtp1.interramp.com [38.8.45.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA26815 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.58] by smtp1.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id CAA24166; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 02:12:16 -0400 X-Sender: us014319@pop3.interramp.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:13:01 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone gotten any mail from this person? This person has sent mail to me, the NFIC, and to my two mailing lists which are closed. He is bombarding my lists which fortunately reject them but this abuse is quite intolerable. Does anyone have any suggestions about how to handle this type of abuse? Note: This guy was responding to a challenge of a chain letter scheme I posted in a newsgroup. He apparently also sent copies to the National Fraud Information Center by accident who will no doubt forward them to the USPS! Regards, Mark Taylor >Return-Path: >Received: from evansville.net by interramp.com >(8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-pop-local) > id XAA25215; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:35:42 -0400 >Received: from world.evansville.net by world.evansville.net with smtp > (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0uxPnV-000hxQC; Sun, 1 Sep 96 22:35 CDT >Path: >info.evansville.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pip >e >x.net!pipex!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!new >s >feed.direct.ca!news >From: winstone@gaia.com (AlbinoCow) >Newsgroups: >alt.computer.workshop.live,alt.conference-ctr,alt.config,alt.consciousness,alt. >c >onsciousness.4th-way,alt.consciousness.mysticism,alt.consciousness.near-death-e >x >p,alt.conspira,alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.abe-lincoln,alt.conspiracy.area51, >a >lt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy.netcom,alt.consumers.experiences,alt.consumers >. >free-stuff,alt.control-theory,alt.cooking-chat,alt.cooking-chien,alt.corel.grap >h >ics,alt.cosuard >Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) >Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:36:57 GMT >Organization: American On Line >Lines: 28 >Message-ID: <50dbd8$59@orb.direct.ca> >NNTP-Posting-Host: van-as-06c03.direct.ca >X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99.82 >Xref: info.evansville.net alt.computer.workshop.live:363 >alt.conference-ctr:333 alt.config:61548 alt.consciousness:22342 >alt.consciousness.4th-way:7314 alt.consciousness.mysticism:6796 >alt.consciousness.near-death-exp:3434 alt.conspiracy:138352 >alt.conspiracy.abe-lincoln:238 alt.conspiracy.area51:13529 >alt.conspiracy.jfk:47415 alt.conspiracy.netcom:253 >alt.consumers.experiences:5836 alt.consumers.free-stuff:26321 >alt.control-theory:49 alt.cooking-chat:1846 alt.cooking-chien:75 >alt.corel.graphics:9214 >ReSent-Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:35:24 -0500 (CDT) >ReSent-From: Aardvark >ReSent-To: spam , mtaylor@interramp.com, > NFIC@internetMCI.com >ReSent-Message-ID: >Apparently-To: > >Are you in Debt? >Are Creditors giving you grief? >Do you feel like a smuck by sponging off your friends? > > That couldn't feel all that good.. > >Why should you let money stress you out? Why should money get in the >way of friends? More often than not it does. Don't tell me all the >stuff you can't do because you don't have the cash to do it.... your >being materialitic when you do that! That is you are focusing on what >material objectes you don't have. > >In $$$.zip is a solution to your money problems. I used a regular zip >codes so that you don't have to spend much time in downloading. If >you can afford $5, do a little work and have a little faith, you'll be >paying off all those creditors in about one month... and have lots of >extra money to boot. > >Would this be a really good day to win $20,000 in the lottery? > >Check out $$$.zip... but only do so after you make the DECISION that >you are going to do anything to get out of debt. > > Good Luck & Prosperity to you, > > ALBINOcow. > > > > > > > -- Murphy's corollary: The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlamp of an oncoming train. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:15:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29395 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29383 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iberia.it.earthlink.net (iberia-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.119]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA09668 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tnidell.earthlink.net (pool057.Max2.Raleigh.NC.DYNIP.ALTER.NET [153.37.111.57]) by iberia.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11176 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 17:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960901204844.006abf80@earthlink.net> X-Sender: tcs@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:49:22 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jody Boyd Subject: Help with Forgeries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We're getting attacked by someone that is forging their e-mail name to be those that are valid for the list. We're pretty sure we know who it is and I have tweaked SendMail to not allow messages from his domain. HOWEVER, this is based on a FROM: filter. I know it's been asked many times before, but if anyone has suggestions on how to block e-mail based on the domain listed in the MSGID or path or with sendmail, please let me know. thanks --- Please note new return address. The Earthlink account is subject to be closed soon. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:19:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29414 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29404 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.interramp.com (smtp2.interramp.com [38.8.200.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA11770 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.243] by smtp2.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id VAA21077; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:08:04 -0400 X-Sender: us014319@pop3.interramp.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:05:38 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: PAML mail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 10:15 AM -0400 8/29/1996, Michael Nolan wrote: > >>I recently had someone on AOL subscribe to my two (closed) lists, post a >>note about a list he was trying to start, at best tangentially related to >>the subject of my two lists, (two college sports teams) then unsubscribe, >>all in the same day. I'd call that hostile activity. I run two (closed) mailing lists on fraud. Both prohibit advertising. I had one guy sign on and post an ad for his mlm candy program (yes candy). I booted him off right away and sent a complaint to his ip. His ip has been getting tons of complaints about this guys activity. -- Mark Taylor Editor Online Fraud Newsletter Find out about fraud schemes on the internet and elsewhere! Subscribe to the Fraud-Discuss mailing list by sending message to Listmanager@Silverquick.com: join fraud-discuss Find out about mlm frauds! Subscribe to the FraudMLM-Discuss by sending a message to Listmanager@Silverquick.com: join fraudMLM-discuss Get the news on internet frauds by subscribing to the Online Fraud Newsletter. Send message to Majordomo@pobox.com: subscribe online-fraud From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:23:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29462 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29441 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA17402 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 19:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id WAA21850; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:38:45 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609020238.WAA21850@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 22:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199608302157.PAA28397@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at Aug 30, 96 03:57:39 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a > > biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical > > oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography > > and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I > > commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical > > oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? > > It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting > individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular > interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My > presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, > not from anyone else. I read it differently. I think he's talking about looking at subscriber lists to try and find a particular person, not "contacting individuals at random", and I'd think that's OK. Of course, the person (or list subscribers) might be hidden anyway, but that's another issue. Cheers, Stan. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 00:24:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29510 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA29502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cantec.com ([206.31.250.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA22602 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www by cantec.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.1i) id 2235000 ; Mon, 02 Sep 96 00:42:41 UTC Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960902043513.002b02c0@cantec.com> X-Sender: dbigham@cantec.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 00:35:13 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Bigham Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:57 PM 8/30/96 -0600, you wrote: >> Let me pose a question, and see how list managers feel about this. I'm a >> biological oceanographer and don't subscribe to any lists in physical >> oceanography, but I have a lot of colleagues in physical oceanography >> and often want to contact them for legitimate scientific reasons. Am I >> commiting a serious abuse if I look at the subscriber lists in physical >> oceanography to see if I can find Email address of my colleagues? > >It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting >individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular >interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My >presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, >not from anyone else. > >-- >::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) > > Man, You've got a *serious* problem with the definition of abusive behavior. Members of a mailing list typically seem to use the list as a resource. If it's a public list, it's a public resource. Its value to any individual will depend on that part of the resource which is of interest. Be it e-mail addresses or knowledge, it's still a resource. I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the Yellow Pages. The abusive behavior is not the getting of names and/or mailing addresses from list managers, but rather, what it to be ultimately done with them. Your presence on a mailing list is not an invitation for anything. It is an agreement to participate with the list and its members and to accept the consequences of being on the list. Dave Bigham CanTec Communications From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 08:46:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA21795 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA21779 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA17909; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:27:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902154041.00869020@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 08:40:41 -0700 To: "Mark E. Taylor" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Spam Alert! ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:13 PM 9/1/96 -0700, Mark E. Taylor wrote: >Has anyone gotten any mail from this person? Hi, Mark, I haven't gotten any, but you might want to, next time you have something to forward, change the subject line. I saw it as: From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: ==Solve your Financial Problems== - $$$.zip (0/1) ...and I was about to delete it -- since it looked like spam -- until I decided that I hadn't reported enough spammers lately and was about to send a copy on to your postmaster! I wonder how many other people deleted it unread because it looked just like a spam. :) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 09:09:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA24276 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA24237 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA18082; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 08:55:55 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902160932.0086d1f8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:09:32 -0700 To: Dave Bigham From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:35 AM 9/2/96 -0400, Dave Bigham wrote: >I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my >car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up >Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about >contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the >Yellow Pages. Except that's what yellow pages are for -- looking up phone numbers. Mailing lists are generally not a way for people who aren't on the lists to get your email address -- they serve a different purpose. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 13:54:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA11931 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA11923 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id NAA10971 for on Mon, 2 Sep 1996 13:13:13 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960902134443.00a7bfb0@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 13:44:44 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: Re: Lists as 411 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my >car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up >Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about >contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the >Yellow Pages. Change Yellow to White. Actually, even then, it isn't a good analogy. You'd have to look through the subscriber list to the San Francisco Examiner to make the equivalent analogy. I put my name on mailing lists to subscribe to the dialog. If I never post, no one should know whether I'm subscribed or not. Of course, the use of the subscriber list is really a list manager decision, and should be known by the subscriber up front. If there is no policy, I don't think it is too much of a leap of faith to expect that the subscriber list will not be used except for the purposes of delivering the list traffic. -todd- I have a feeling that this again will be another one of those "religious" topics, on which there is no consensus. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 14:24:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14817 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA14777 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 14:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I90EOCVBJ89JDDSI@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:15 EDT Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:15 EDT From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" Subject: List owner named in law suit (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I90EOCVBJ89JDDSI@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yet another thing to worry about.... I suspect that moderated lists are particularly vulnerable to such suits. The setup I'm working on is forwarding all unaccepted mail to another list, so that I'm just determining where it goes, not whether it goes out at all. -Allen From: IN%"ncognito@gate.net" 29-AUG-1996 14:01:40.48 To: IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com" CC: Subj: List owner named in law suit (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Clay Irving Subject: List owner named in law suit I can't believe this one! Peter Laws, a recent graduate of the University of Arkansas, maintains an electronic mailing list called "SCAN-L". The list is provided for radio scanning enthusiasts. There are a few hundred subscribers to the list. Recently, in a thread about scanning publications, an employee of publication "A" apparently wrote something to offend someone at publication "B". Lo and behold, next thing you know, Peter is named in a lawsuit because he is the maintainer of the list. Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for something someone else writes? Peter *just* graduated, and he needs all the help he can get. Thanks, in advance. -- Clay Irving N2VKG clay@panix.com http://www.panix.com/~clay/ From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 15:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA20903 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lithuania.it.earthlink.net (lithuania-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.58]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA20891 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tnidell.earthlink.net (pool005.Max13.Raleigh.NC.DYNIP.ALTER.NET [153.37.114.197]) by lithuania.it.earthlink.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA17718 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0b11.32.19960902180206.006b223c@earthlink.net> X-Sender: tcs@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b11 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:02:10 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jody Boyd Subject: Re: List owner named in law suit (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:15 PM 9/2/96 EDT, you wrote: >Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of >anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for >something someone else writes? I would say it depends on the previous behavior of the list maintainer. If he was in the habbit of coming down on those that made disparaging remarks about other members or products and DID NOT do the same in this case he may be liable. I'd doubt it though. It could be he is wanted in court to provide evidence to support the plaintif claim. There would have to be real damage which I don't think would be possible regarding an opinion of a product unless it was technically wrong. Even then proving real damage over a discussion list is doubtful. --- Please note new return address. The Earthlink account is subject to be closed soon. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 17:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA27996 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (fang.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA27977 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/13May95-0346PM) id JAA21887; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 09:36:25 +0930 Received: by msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft Mail id <322C6CA6@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au>; Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:36:38 CST From: "Gabb, Andrew" To: list-managers Subject: RE: List owner named in law suit (fwd) Date: Tue, 03 Sep 96 09:33:00 CST Message-ID: <322C6CA6@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:52:36 -0400 (EDT) >From: Clay Irving >Subject: List owner named in law suit > >I can't believe this one! > >Peter Laws, a recent graduate of the University of Arkansas, maintains >an electronic mailing list called "SCAN-L". The list is provided for >radio scanning enthusiasts. There are a few hundred subscribers to the list. >Recently, in a thread about scanning publications, an employee of >publication "A" apparently wrote something to offend someone at publication >"B". >Lo and behold, next thing you know, Peter is named in a lawsuit because he is >the maintainer of the list. > >Something seems very, very wrong with this. I've never heard of >anything like this before. Can a Email list maintainer be held liable for >something someone else writes? I suspect that an attempt will be made to liken a mailing list to a newspaper, in which case the last question can be answered with a qualified 'yes'. The obvious defence is that the list manager has no control over what is written, only providing a reflector service to those who want to hear what others say. This defence will be weakened, of course, if you censor (or rather filter) certain mailings or membership, or if the mailing list is moderated. In the latter case, the list manager is exercising editorial control to some extent. And with that comes some measure of responsibility. Not a nice situation, really. Andrew ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== Andrew Gabb Andrew.Gabb@dsto.defence.gov.au Information Technology Division Defence Science and Technology Organisation Ph +61 8 8259 5505 Fax +61 8 8259 5980 171 Labs ITD/DSTO, P.O. Box 1500, Salisbury SA 5108, Australia From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 18:54:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA03880 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA03873 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id VAA04818; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:52:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield To: Todd Day cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: credit card managing software In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960902134443.00a7bfb0@mail.di.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a program or service for managing credit card transactions that you would recommend? *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 21:41:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17176 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA17169 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA18986; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199609030431.XAA18986@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: kynn@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:31:57 -0500 (CDT) Cc: dbigham@cantec.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960902160932.0086d1f8@mail.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Sep 2, 96 09:09:32 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett said... | |Except that's what yellow pages are for -- looking up phone numbers. |Mailing lists are generally not a way for people who aren't on the lists |to get your email address -- they serve a different purpose. I'm sorry - but I really can't see what else a public "lists" command is for. If it's private, and someone joins to get the list and leaves - that may well be another matter. All our lists are private, for specific reasons which vary from simply not wanting to moderate the list, to being by invitation only, to simply avoiding spammers. -Miles On one, I got tired of having to deal with several attempted subs per week from list-seekers, who just wanted to see what the [invitational] list was about... From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 22:09:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA21234 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA21210 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id XAA10849 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:04:47 -0600 Message-Id: <199609030504.XAA10849@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:04:46 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> It sounds from your example like you're talking about contacting >> individuals at random simply based on their presence on a particular >> interest list. If so, yes, I consider that abusive behavior. My >> presence on a mailing list is an invitation for mail *from that list*, >> not from anyone else. > > Man, You've got a *serious* problem with the definition of abusive > behavior. Members of a mailing list typically seem to use the list as a > resource. If it's a public list, it's a public resource. Its value to > any individual will depend on that part of the resource which is of > interest. Be it e-mail addresses or knowledge, it's still a resource. Uh, no, sorry. The "resource" I'm providing is the traffic on the lists I run, not the names of the people who subscribe to the list. > I don't see much difference between the above example and an instance of my > car breaking down in San Francisco (I live in Ohio), and my looking up > Mechanics in the Yellow Pages. In this instance I am "talking about > contacting individuals at random simply based on their presence" in the > Yellow Pages. I don't buy your claim that subscribing to a mailing list is equivalent to buying an advertisement in the Yellow Pages offering the general public to contact you if they want a service performed. I subscribe to some lists because I'm actively interested in the subject and want to offer my active participation, and to some because I'm casually interested and just want to lurk. Someone who grabs my name off the subscriber list and emails me at random about the subject is no better than someone who sees me driving a VW pickup and tracks me down through my license plate number and calls me at home trying to chat me up about VW pickups -- it is, at its best, *unbelievably* rude. I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he thinks you "asked for it" . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 2 22:41:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA22529 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agt.net (clgrps02.agt.net [198.161.156.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA22521 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 22:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clgrpx04-port-26.agt.net (clgrpx04-port-26.agt.net [198.161.156.220]) by agt.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA07127 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:26:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199609030526.XAA07127@agt.net> X-Sender: lnault@mail.agt.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: lnault@agt.net (Larry Nault) Subject: Set-up Needed To Run Mailing List X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I asked about software for Windows 3.1 the other day and though I realize this is hardly the base to run a mailing list from I am going to try SLMail at the recommendation of a couple of the list members. (Thank you to those who responded to my request). Here is the problem I am running into now. As I said I am running Windows 3.1. My internet connection is through a local provider (A.G.T.) who provides me with an e-mail address and some space to store a web page. When I tried to set up SLMail it requested the following four addresses from me: Local Node: Local IP: Smart Host: Name Server: Since this shareware has no support I e-mailed a request to my service provider for these addresses and the response I received was "This is probably referring to settings for email used on a direct LAN connection." Do I need a direct LAN connection to operate a mailing list manager? If not how can I find the appropriate addresses for the above. Thank you in advance for your assistance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _____ _____ / ~ L. Nault ~ / \ ___ / \ / ~ Professional Services ~ / \/ / \/ \-/ ~ Research Specialist ~ \ |=| / / \ |=| / ~ Calgary, AB ~ \_____/ / \_____/ ~ researcher@agt.net ~ / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ /____ \ / \____________/ \__________/ Web Site http://www.agt.net/public/lnault/home.htm From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 04:54:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA18840 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 04:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unix.worldpath.net (unix.worldpath.net [206.152.180.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA18833 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 04:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from remote1-unex-cs-1.worldpath.net (remote1-unex-cs-1.worldpath.net [206.152.181.41]) by unix.worldpath.net (8.7.5/8.7.3(CICNet)) with SMTP id HAA04001; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609031142.HAA04001@unix.worldpath.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@unix.worldpath.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Bourbeau Subject: FWD> spamorama Cc: jeff@addimension.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Received from the Boston Computer Society mailinglist. Thought it would be of interest to all here: >Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:49:02 -0400 >From: darius@world.std.com (Darius Thabit) >To: isig@bcs.org >Subject: FWD> spamorama >Cc: nh-isig@bcs.org >Sender: owner-isig@bcs.org >Reply-To: isig@bcs.org > > >FYI ... > >------------------------------------ > >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:33:43 -0700 (PDT) >From: Phil Agre > >[An RRE subscriber has found the spammers' secret clubhouse. Don't flame >or trash them, but I think it would be great if somebody wanted to monitor >the list and/or read the archives and write a thoughtful commentary on the >spammers' methods and thinking. I should say that not everyone on the list >is a spammer, but many are.] > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE). >Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below. >You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use >the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions >for (un)subscribing, send an empty message to rre-help@weber.ucsd.edu >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > >Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 18:43:31 -0500 >From: <> > >You might be interested to know about a list that appears to be gaining in >credibility among Internet marketers, the DEMA (Direct Email marketing >Association) list. I detest unsolicted commercial email but joined the list >just to keep tabs on what they're up to. > >Topics include such things as which newsgroup email-gathering software is >the best, how to make your unsolicted email targeted for the group so it's >more easily accepted, etc. > >I was mildly amused once that the moderator clipped a poster's sig file >because it exceeded the "6 lines dictated by netiquette"! I emailed and >asked, "Is it ok to waste someone else's resources but not your own?". He >wasn't amused, though. Needless to say my comments didn't make it to the >list. > >DEMA postings are archived at http://kww.com/dema/. > > > > Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny "I just showed you my own personal hell, and you want me to show you heaven?" MM 3/24/96 ----------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.zipnet.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: bourbeau@worldpath.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@worldpath.net ------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 06:54:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27875 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA27789 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 96 9:41:59 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Network outages? Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9609030942.aa00492@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I dunno if this is really the place to ask, but I have no idea where else to turn. Has anyone seen signs of connectivity problems between the mainland US and Europe? I have lots (like nearly 200) of outgoing mail queued, most for delivery to Sweden, France, etc, most since Thursday morning (29th Aug). Traceroute runs to those sites I can still get DNS info for times out at an IP address with an SOA pointing to Sprint (icp.net). I can't find any network info on their WWW site. Ideas? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 06:59:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA28025 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mh1.well.com (mh1.well.com [206.15.64.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA28015 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dburnet.us.net (endb4.laurel.us.net [198.240.112.40]) by mh1.well.com (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id GAA23311 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960903134413.0076a04c@mail.well.com> X-Sender: dburnet@mail.well.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:44:13 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "David A. Burnet" Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A point well made; it strikes me more and more that there is too strong a similarity between rapists and robbers who claim, "Well, the woman/house was so attractive, it was cleary an invitation to rape/rob". Such a statement is about shifting blame for anti-social behavior onto others. At 11:04 PM 9/2/96 -0600, you wrote: >I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every >passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager >further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information >viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command >or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along >who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces >afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he >thinks you "asked for it" . . . -David ----------------------------------------------------------- David A. Burnet ; Jarrettsville, MD; USA Permanent Email Forwarding: Email Backup: From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 10:44:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA15504 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA15495 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:36:17 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA16531 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz2w-00002MC; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:13 PDT Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz2x-0009D7C; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:13 PDT Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uxz3S-0005bdC; Tue, 3 Sep 96 10:14 PDT Message-Id: <9609031014.ZM9634@higgins> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:14:25 -0700 References: <199609030800.BAA01363@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't like having to make my lists more and more "private" with every > passing year, but these kinds of problems are dragging every list manager > further and further down that road. If you leave subscriber information > viewable to the world or make list names available via a "lists" command > or allow open posting to a list, some jerk will inevitably come along > who's willing to abuse that fact. And when you're picking up the pieces > afterward, some other jerk will be *doubly* sure to let you know that he > thinks you "asked for it" . . . (A "jerk" responds--lovely method of discussion you have) Wait a second. One the one hand you bemoan the fact people can get your subscriber lists then you whine about having to make the subscriber lists private. Which is it? Do you want people to be able to get at your subscriber lists or not? You can't have your cake and yadda, yadda, yadda. If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out then don't make them available to the public. Since I run my lists mostly by hand that's easy for me--I just don't mail the subscriber list if people ask for it--so maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists unavailable to the public such a hard thing in the automated packages? --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 16:43:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA29192 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA29128 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id SAA06212 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:58:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609032258.SAA06212@panix.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:58:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just saw this thread and I need to make a couple of points on this, as subscribers to my "private" list were spammed repeatedly by someone who used just this tack - pulling the subscriber file for my list, under a bogus address. In fact I didn't know I could have the command blocked until I contacted my service provider, after the fact. Having done so the subscribers are safer, but the damage was already done. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 16:59:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA09090 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from x4.boston.juno.com (x4.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA09051 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from moonstruck@juno.com) by x4.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TAA00546; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 19:38:11 EDT To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:29:27 EST Subject: New to managing. Message-ID: <19960903.192929.4015.0.Moonstruck@juno.com> References: <199608101650.JAA19177@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.00 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-11,15-22 From: moonstruck@juno.com (Kris Clark) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm interested in starting a mailing list, but am having a little trouble finding out where to begin. I've done a few searches with webcrawker but haven't come up with anything that pointed me in the right direction. Can someone help me out? I have Windows 3.1, but am under the impression that one needs software such as UNIX, or Solaris -- is this correct? What about OS/2, is there anything out there that will run under it? (I have OS/2 Warp.) I'd appreciate any help anyone may be able to give me about getting past this little confusing first step. :> (I've been very successful in teaching myself HTML, but for some reason I just can't figure this one out.) Thanks so much! Kris From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:13:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA20196 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from okra02.millsaps.edu (okra02.millsaps.edu [151.160.8.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA20139 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609040204.TAA20139@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from lh1142d.millsaps.edu (lh1142.millsaps.edu) by okra03.millsaps.edu (MX V4.2 VAX) with SMTP; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 21:02:58 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Larry Olin Horn" Organization: Millsaps College To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:04:32 -0500 Subject: list plundering Reply-To: hornlo@okra.millsaps.edu X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI - The "lists" command was sent to both "majordomo" and "listserv" addresses at Millsaps (we don't use either one), although both the "To:" addresses were set to whatever@valnet.es, as you see below. >Received: from boqueron.vnet.es by okra03.millsaps.edu ... Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:44:45 -0500 >Received: from correo.vnet.es ([194.179.124.237]) by boqueron.vnet.es (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA07001; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:27:21 +0200 >Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 01:27:21 +0200 >Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19960904013112.24dfa964@correo.vnet.es> >X-Sender: gmvilchez@correo.vnet.es >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: listserv@valnet.es >From: "Gabriel M. Vilchez" > >lists From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:28:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA21428 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA21412 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (alancz@hou-tx16-47.ix.netcom.com [205.184.193.175]) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA21130 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199609040221.TAA21130@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: Signature Line Policies?? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them look something like this.... >From Joe Shmoe....... ------------------------------------- Yes, Sandy, I agree with your comment! Joe ----------- ATTENTION!!! Visit Joe's Internet Spamarama!!! All the spam you need in one convenient location! Come visit us at http:/www.spam.com/spam/spam/galore.html Check out our daily specials and new items... Blah Blah Blah........ ------------------------------------- In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? Thanks, Alan Cz From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 19:33:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA21037 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA21023 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA22655 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:17:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199609040217.UAA22655@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:17:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Wait a second. One the one hand you bemoan the fact people can get your > subscriber lists then you whine about having to make the subscriber > lists private. Which is it? Do you want people to be able to get at > your subscriber lists or not? I'd like to be able to leave my subscriber lists world-readable without it inevitably leading to abuse of that information by spam-spewing sleazebags. Kind of like I was able to do until about eighteen months ago. > If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out > then don't make them available to the public. Wow, what a trenchant and insightful observation. Let's all give Mike a big hand! > Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com > Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) > 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) > Burbank, CA 91521-4870 I take it from the fact that you provide this information "publicly", you wouldn't mind someone wandering over to rec.arts.disney.* and telling everyone that they're welcome to call you to chat about what a jerk they think Eisner is, ask for tips on breaking into the biz or getting replacements for their laser-rotted copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" LD, email you for GIFs of Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. After all, if you didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't let anyone have it, right? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 20:13:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25334 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25327 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts46-15.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.141.115]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA02139; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609040304.XAA02139@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Signature Line Policies?? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan, There is a byte of Netiquette of long standing that no .sig shall be more than four lines. People tend to be relaxed about it: on sci.econ.research, which I moderate, it takes a lot of these guys five lines to get to the building their Institute is in, let alone the fax numbers, e-mail addresses and office hours... Still there's nothing to stop you going back to the Good Olde Days -- only two of text if you use two for lines of asterisks. Cheers, -dlj. At 07:21 PM 03/09/96 -0700, Alan Czarnek wrote: >Hi, > >I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to >advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them >look something like this.... > >>From Joe Shmoe....... >------------------------------------- >Yes, Sandy, I agree with your comment! > >Joe > >----------- > >ATTENTION!!! > >Visit Joe's Internet Spamarama!!! > >All the spam you need in one convenient location! >Come visit us at http:/www.spam.com/spam/spam/galore.html > >Check out our daily specials and new items... > >Blah Blah Blah........ >------------------------------------- > >In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than >any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers >have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? > >Thanks, > >Alan Cz > > > > > From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 3 20:28:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25685 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25671 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ec2 (205.160.16.65) by ec2.earthchannel.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 1.1) with SMTP id ; Tue, 03 Sep 1996 23:16:46 -0400 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:16:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3 Sep 96 at 20:17, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) > > Burbank, CA 91521-4870 > > > copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" LD, email you for GIFs of > Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. After all, if you > didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't let anyone have it, > right? > I think you forgot the more plausible junk faxes, which can tie up the line, waste paper etc. :-) Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 02:58:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA13562 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA13551 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomorrow by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.22) with SMTP id CAA23584 for on Wed, 4 Sep 1996 02:40:21 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b15 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:43:10 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: list command/.sigs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists unavailable to >the public such a hard thing in the automated packages? I think Michael is missing one of the more convenient reasons for leaving the subscriber list public. If someone subscribes from a machine like apple.fruit.com but their simple email address is user@fruit.com, often their From: address will be user@apple.fruit.com and the automated packages will sign them up at that address. If fruit.com is the inbound MX and is configured properly, the list mail will still make it to this person. When they go to unsubscribe, perhaps they are using orange.fruit.com that day. An automated package isn't going to know that user@apple.fruit.com = user@orange.fruit.com, and the unsubscribe will fail. The user might even try unsubbing user@fruit.com, but of course, that will fail too. What recourse for the user? Grab the user list, figure out which address they got subscribed as, and try again. Majordomo can be set to be a bit fuzzy so that the above example is actually handled. However, you can construct any several more complicated situations involving forwarding files, etc, where it would be convenient for the user to figure out what address they had subscribed under by using the subscriber list. I used to run with open lists. Got burned by spammers. Now I have to deal with tracking down these unsubscribe (and address change) cases myself. That's why you'll find list managers bitter over crap caused by these email spammers. You go out of your way to do a service for the net to pay back the institution that has given you so much, and some johnny-come-lately appears and screws it all up for you - making you into the computer security nazi you always loathed as an undergraduate. [Warning, strong opinions ahead] Re: Signature Line Policies?? >There is a byte of Netiquette of long standing that no .sig shall be more >than four lines. Personally, I've always considered .sigs to be the appendix of the electronic letter body - perhaps useful early in its evolution, but completely useless today (possibly poisonous :-) I mean, if I want your address or phone number, I'll just email you for it. Or, hey, I don't think I've ever seen *that* clever quote from (insert science fiction film or book or tv series) in all my ten years of reading USENET! Hell, one of my workmates still uses that "To err is human... to really screw things up requires a computer" quote in his .sig. Even the cheez gift industry stopped using that one - the last coffee mug I saw with that quote actually used greenbar paper with the font found at the bottom of checks! On the list that I run that I really care about, I hand edit each digest. All .sigs are trimmed down to just the writer's name. If they include an email address that is drastically different from the one in the From: line, I'll let that by as well. Sounds drastic? I've gotten only *ONE* complaint, and that was from a vendor who wanted to include an eight line monster with two pager numbers, two fax numbers three regional support numbers, a full street address, and a quote from Pulp Fiction. Most of the submitters to my digest don't even bother with a .sig anymore - they have seen the light. :-) As a reader, it is tough to keep up with a 40k digest per day, so I try to make it as easy as possible for my readers to get through. I also remove excessive quoting (which seems to be a big problem on this list). Huge amounts of quoting makes digests *incredibly* difficult to read and follow. (hint hint! :-) Of course, this signature policy isn't for everyone. It requires a bit of work (I edit with vi, and have it down to "dd.." (three lines of a four line .sig gone with that keystroke sequence)). And it probably wouldn't work on a more social (as in soc.*) type list (I run an automobile list). But my subscribers seem to be happy with this policy. I do run a web site that goes with the list that allows subscribers to enter all the info that would normally go into a .sig file, and people can do lookups and searches on that info. -todd- From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 03:29:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA14621 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA14614 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA17806; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199609041023.DAA17806@weber.ucsd.edu> To: alancz@ix.netcom.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Alan Czarnek's message of Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 <199609040221.TAA21130@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> Subject: Signature Line Policies?? Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 19:21:45 -0700 From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) I have a couple of people on my list who seem to post mainly to advertise things in their sig line..... most messages from them look something like this.... [...] In other words their commercial sig line is far longer than any message that they ever post. Do any of you list managers have any workable policies to deal with this problem???? Alan, thanks for putting the problem so sucintly. I deal with it by banning all advertisment (well, I have a file on the webpage stating exactly what I mean by that) and I make it clear that .sigs count as advertising. When I subscribe people, I comment on their .sigs if I think they will be a problem and tell them they are welcome to read posts if they are a commercial entity but that ads are not allowed should they choose to post. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 03:33:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id DAA14313 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.utu.fi (sol.utu.fi [130.232.1.30]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id DAA14298 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 03:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by utu.fi id <12447-458>; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:13:08 +0300 Subject: Re: Network outages ? From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:12:58 +0300 (EET DST) In-Reply-To: <199609040800.BAA07205@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Sep 4, 96 01:00:29 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <96Sep4.131308+0300_eet_dst.12447-458+1186@utu.fi> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I dunno if this is really the place to ask, but I have no idea where else to > turn. > > Has anyone seen signs of connectivity problems between the mainland US and > Europe? I have lots (like nearly 200) of outgoing mail queued, most for > delivery to Sweden, France, etc, most since Thursday morning (29th Aug). > > Traceroute runs to those sites I can still get DNS info for times out at an > IP address with an SOA pointing to Sprint (icp.net). I can't find any > network info on their WWW site. There are massive performance problems at/near Pensauken, NJ, where the 34 Mbps link from NORDUnet reaches USA at Sprint's connection point. Basically (I have been told) the problem is caused by several high-speed links coming in, and without enough capacity at FDDI-rings going out... As if that would not be bad enough, the saturation causes trouble at global IP routeing updates from peering routeing systems to the trans-atlantic link system (well, to NORDUnet), and as the routers can't successfully talk with each other (due to 80% packet losses at the times), the routing starts to flap around making things even worse. > Ideas? Patience. Sprint is going to replace those FDDI rings with 622 Mbps guaranteed bandwidth ATM, but it will take some time yet. > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 10:14:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA06990 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huey.disney.com (huey.disney.com [204.128.192.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA06973 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb (dalsdb.fa.disney.com [139.104.212.4]) by huey.disney.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA18010 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oilspot.fa.disney.com by dalsdb with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPD-000004C; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Received: from higgins.fa.disney.com by oilspot.fa.disney.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPE-0009D6C; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Received: by higgins.fa.disney.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0uyLPj-0005hxC; Wed, 4 Sep 96 10:06 PDT Message-Id: <9609041006.ZM13283@higgins> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:06:54 -0700 References: <199609040800.BAA07205@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 26oct94 MediaMail) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'd like to be able to leave my subscriber lists world-readable without it > inevitably leading to abuse of that information by spam-spewing sleazebags. > Kind of like I was able to do until about eighteen months ago. Welcome to 1996. > > If you run a mailing list and don't want your subscriber lists going out > > then don't make them available to the public. > > Wow, what a trenchant and insightful observation. Let's all give Mike a > big hand! Since you apparently hadn't thought of it, I figured I should point it out ;-). > I take it from the fact that you provide this information "publicly", you > wouldn't mind someone wandering over to rec.arts.disney.* and telling > everyone that they're welcome to call you to chat about what a jerk they > think Eisner is, ask for tips on breaking into the biz or getting > replacements for their laser-rotted copies of the BatB "Work-In-Progress" > LD, email you for GIFs of Esmeralda sticking things up herself, etc. etc. > After all, if you didn't want the information abused, you wouldn't > let anyone have it, right? Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never claimed that _abuse_ of list information was a good thing. I was just pointing out that it's silly to complain about someone merely gathering information because they _might_ do something bad with it. And if I didn't want people calling me or mailing me or emailing me, I wouldn't have that information in my .sig. People email me Disney-related stuff all the time. No big deal. --- Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 560 8196 (voice) 500 S. Buena Vista St. +1 818 560 8290 (fax) Burbank, CA 91521-4870 From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 10:59:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA09738 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newfed.FRB.GOV (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA09692 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRB.GOV by newfed.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA12213; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:50:32 EDT Received: from kryten.frb.gov by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA03350; Wed, 4 Sep 96 13:50:05 EDT Received: from localhost.frb.gov (localhost.frb.gov [127.0.0.1]) by kryten.frb.gov (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA06934; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:46:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199609041746.NAA06934@kryten.frb.gov> X-Authentication-Warning: kryten.frb.gov: Host localhost.frb.gov didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: sullivan@fa.disney.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is the lists command legit In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:06:54 PDT." <9609041006.ZM13283@higgins> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:46:55 -0400 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people >complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been >done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never gathering information only.....not going to use it?? hard to imagine. jmb From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 21:43:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA21945 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA21931 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 21:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA00081; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:41:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199609050441.XAA00081@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: jmb@FRB.GOV (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:41:00 -0500 (CDT) Cc: sullivan@fa.disney.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609041746.NAA06934@kryten.frb.gov> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Sep 4, 96 01:46:55 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jonathan M. Bresler said... | |>Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people |>complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been |>done with the list information, it was just being gathered. I've never | | gathering information only.....not going to use it?? The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* it. Hey, I've been known to use information myself on occasion. Some of you should be more careful - hanging out on a list like this, you might actually *gather information*. The horror! -Miles 8^P From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 22:13:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA22969 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailbox.neosoft.com (mailbox.neosoft.com [206.109.1.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA22956 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bonkers.taronga.com (root@bonkers.neosoft.com [206.109.2.48]) by mailbox.neosoft.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA20567 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:06:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id XAA03060 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:56:17 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199609050456.XAA03060@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:56:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > |>Apples and oranges, funny guy. The original thread started by people > |>complaining about someone gathering list information. Nothing had been > |>done with the list information, it was just being gathered. > | > | gathering information only.....not going to use it?? > > The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have > done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* > it. A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. And yes, there was intent to use the information. An intent which some people objected very strongly to. (Peter just about hit the roof when I told him what was going on, e.g. -- interesting, because the two of us had about the opposite reactions to this occurance then we usually do to this kind of situation....) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 4 23:30:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24381 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24374 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 23:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id BAA00834; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:18:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199609050618.BAA00834@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609050456.XAA03060@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Sep 4, 96 11:56:17 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva said... | |A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the |information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting |distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from |multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. OK, but unless I misunderstood something, it was unintentional "abuse", and it was stopped when the complaints came in, and they committed to fix those problems before even considering restarting. Right? |And yes, there was intent to use the information. An intent which some |people objected very strongly to. And their reaction to those objections was? -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 01:43:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA28635 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outlawnet.com ([204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA28586 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.245.248.225] (liv1.outlawnet.com [204.245.248.225]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA05307; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:42:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: garyb@outlawnet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@fxt.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Re: list command/.sigs Cc: Todd Day Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Todd Day >As a reader, it is tough to keep up with a 40k digest per day, so I try to >make it as easy as possible for my readers to get through. I also remove >excessive quoting (which seems to be a big problem on this list). Huge >amounts of quoting makes digests *incredibly* difficult to read and follow. >(hint hint! :-) This reminds me - long standing fantasy of mine (since 1983 at least) - maybe this is the right list to discuss it. I've always felt that the mechanism of manual quoting in news & mail messages was inefficient on several levels. I'd like to see a protocol & related standards (shades of Ted Nelson!) for inclusion by reference, offset & length, for whatever snippet one wants to include, rather than the actual snippet. This of course requires more sophisticated server/client interaction, but would eliminate the doubling or so of traffic and storage, and no doubt improve the overall communication. I've built some chat systems that could probably be adapted to do this, using a lightweight sql server. So, oh mighty mail system builders, how 'bout it? how about a real dbms-backed mail/object server, and client (well, maybe just a web page, I know, I know) | end --+-- Gary Bickford | FXT Corp. / Informat Communications | 541-923-3060 | fax 541-923-5537 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 05:29:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA09652 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA09645 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA23860; Thu, 5 Sep 96 09:15:11 -0300 From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9609051215.AA23860@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Illegitimate information posting! [comments] To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:14:50 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes, in response to what I think is a very valid comment by meo@schoneal.com: >>The point is that until they have *abused* the information, they have >>done nothing wrong. They can even *use* the information without *abusing* >>it. >A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the >information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting >distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from >multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. But I think we are dealing with different issues here. Overloading a system is one thing, collecting information is another. They may be connected, but overloading someone's system is just as serious whether it is done for legitimate reasons (ping or anonymous ftp) as for nefarious ones, and the legitimacy of the reason is a separate question. A couple of days ago I posed the question of what the implications would be of my sending a single "who" command to a list to look for addresses of scientific colleagues. About half the responses were negative, but I never found any that had any legitimate concerns to support them. Most were of the form, "I don't like it" or "I didn't subscribe so that you could learn my email address", but I fail to see why subscribing to a mailing list should necessarily guarantee any more privacy than having your name in the telephone book or on a list of homeowners (unless the list is set up that way). So I agree with meo@schoneal.com that gathering the information is not in itself bad, although of course there can be associated offenses like overloading the system by excessive demands, or abusing the information by subsequent spamming. What concerns me far more is the attitude expressed by many list owners that people who don't respect their personal philosophies of list management are intrinsically evil. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 05:59:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA11100 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA11075 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 05:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id HAA03654; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:57:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199609051257.HAA03654@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! [comments] To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:57:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9609051215.AA23860@biome.bio.dfo.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Sep 5, 96 09:14:50 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Silvert said... | |What concerns me far more is the attitude |expressed by many list owners that people who don't respect their |personal philosophies of list management are intrinsically evil. That pretty well sums up my frustrations with the discussion. That and the fact that it's a moving target. Some of us keep hopping back and forth between the specific instance and the general case as if they were interchangeable, when the whole point (for others of us) is that this *instance* is neither typical spamming nor necessarily evil. Please note that I say "us" n both cases, because regardless of our feelings about this case, or about list/who commands, we are still a community of list-managers with a lot to offer each other. Religious wars tend to be detrimental to the health of all involved, and I'd hate to see this turn into one. That said, if my sarcasm has offended anyone, I apologize - my intent was to inject a bit of humor and perspective, not antagonize or put down... -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 08:50:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA21954 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA21944 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0uygS1-0009PzC; Thu, 5 Sep 96 08:34 PDT Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! To: meo@schoneal.com Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Cc: arielle@taronga.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609050618.BAA00834@wildride.schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Sep 5, 96 01:18:16 am Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >OK, but unless I misunderstood something, it was >unintentional "abuse", and it was stopped when >the complaints came in, and they committed to fix >those problems before even considering restarting. >Right? > I think I've heard this before regarding FBI files or something like that haven't I. It doesn't pass the laugh-test. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -- Doctor Who, "Face of Evil" From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 10:14:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA29054 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ephsa.alamo.net (ephsa.alamo.net [204.57.116.195]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA29038 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from endicor.com (Ufezzik@localhost) by ephsa.alamo.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with UUCP id LAA16712 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:47:47 -0500 Received: by lotharon.endicor.com (8.7.5/Endicor) id KAA15479; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:30:18 -0500 (CDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Xref: endicor.com endicor.lists.list-managers:3738 Newsgroups: endicor.lists.list-managers From: tsarna@endicor.com (Ty Sarna) Subject: "Stupid, stupid minds!" (was: Re: PAML mail) Message-ID: Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas References: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 15:27:05 GMT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Mark E. Taylor wrote: > I run two (closed) mailing lists on fraud. Both prohibit advertising. I > had one guy sign on and post an ad for his mlm candy program (yes candy). > I booted him off right away and sent a complaint to his ip. His ip has So you run a list about MLM frauds, and this guy posts about his MLM scheme there? Seems like a pretty clear admission to me :-) I've got an even better one. This morning in my sat.announce moderation mailbox I found a spam advertising spamming services. The best part? They're giving away t-shirts with their logo ("Info.Now") on them to their customers. The ultimate "kick me" sign! So, if you see anyone wearing an Info.Now t-shirt, be sure to give 'em a good thwap upside the head, won't you? From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 10:23:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA29392 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA29369 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA08697 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA03583 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:02:48 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:02:48 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199609051702.NAA03583@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Illegitimate information... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Some of us keep hopping back and forth >between the specific instance and the general case >as if they were interchangeable, when the whole >point (for others of us) is that this *instance* >is neither typical spamming nor necessarily evil. I think that the crux of the matter, in this case, is the fact that the behavior in question came from a source which (IMHO) should have both known better *and* given forewarning. Sure, you'll see the occasional schmo@isp.com or smith@booga.net pulling down a subscriber list; those have to be evaluated on an in- dividual basis. On the other hand, I *expect* the serious online vendors (like digital.com) to be aware of the sensitivity of fellow information providers. One must wonder how our counterparts within DEC would react if one of us just started winkling out every listserver in the digital.com domain. Does anyone here remember the mini-furor about the "not for the public" anonymous FTP site at SRI? I wasn't hit by digital.com in this one, but I would have expected a bit of 'professional courtesy.' --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:44:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26201 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26173 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA01607 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 17:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05828; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:50:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:50:04 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: lazlo@swep.com Subject: Is the list command legit? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reading your reply, Aug 30, to the ocean-scientist.... I take it that you can draw the line (for a person keeping an "unlisted number") at whether someone will take the time to type out a subscribe-me command, joining temporarily? Am looking for a wall more solid than that. Data entry workers can be hired to go through, copying lists two or three a minute - if they get the knack, making up commercial/mailing (post office junk) lists. For example. We want to put dampers on the quick-scan business, I think. Another 2 cents. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:47:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26620 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26603 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA28995 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA19006; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:20:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:20:37 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak Reply-To: Paul E Kayak To: Todd Day cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list command/.sigs In-Reply-To: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Todd Day wrote: > >maybe I'm missing something here. Is making subscriber lists > >unavailable to the public such a hard thing... > > I think Michael is missing one of the more convenient reasons... > ... > if they go to unsubscribe, perhaps they are using orange.fruit.com that > day. user@orange.fruit.com, and the unsubscribe will fail. The user > might even The publicly-available list is sort of a way to get back into the house when one has lost his key? I benefitted from your discussion. - A novice, Paul From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:47:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25614 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id QAA25606 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom9.netcom.com (netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA29623 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 00:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom9.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id GAA04716; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:59:43 GMT Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 06:59:43 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom9 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Question: Listserv & closed subscriber lists Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Setup: A listserv list that requires the list-owner to approve all subscribe requests to the list. Question: How many messages are generated, and by who/what, for each subscribe request. Is there a listserv FAQ somewhere -- I looked through altavista and yahoo, but came up empty. :-( xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com However, if you're tired of the Lesser of N evils, Cthulu's export policy is that you can't escape anyway, and your puny mortal lives will be absorbed along with his morning coffee. Your encryption technology is futile against the Elder Gods, and the arcane formulas in the Cyphernomicon of that mad physicist Tim The Enchanter may summon spirits from the vasty deep, but no secrets are safe from Nyarla-S-Ahothep who knows all and sees all. Bill Stewart From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:50:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26741 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26695 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA03257 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04193; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:11:41 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960904162519.00802270@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:25:19 -0700 To: Todd Day From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: list command/.sigs Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:43 AM 9/4/96 -0700, Todd Day wrote: >If someone subscr*bes from a machine like >apple.fruit.com but their simple email address is user@fruit.com, often >their From: address will be user@apple.fruit.com and the automated packages >will sign them up at that address. [...] The user might even >try unsubbing user@fruit.com, but of course, that will fail too. What >recourse for the user? Grab the user list, figure out which address they >got subscribed as, and try again. This is what the majordomo 'which' command is for. The version of Majordomo that I'm running has the 'who' command completely disabled. The owner can get at the subscriber list if they need to -- using the web and their password -- but nobody else can get it. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:53:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26748 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26712 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA03249 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA04200 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:11:45 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960904162522.007593c4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:25:22 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Signature Line Policies?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:23 AM 9/4/96 -0700, Cyndi Norman wrote: >Alan, thanks for putting the problem so sucintly. I deal with it by >banning all advertisment (well, I have a file on the webpage stating >exactly what I mean by that) and I make it clear that .sigs count as >advertising. When I subscribe people, I comment on their .sigs if I think >they will be a problem and tell them they are welcome to read posts if they >are a commercial entity but that ads are not allowed should they choose to >post. The HTML Writers Guild bans commercial advertisements but does allow members to do whatever they like in their signature files. If, however, a list user has an excessively long sig, they get contacted by a friendly List Guide who tries to get them to change. --Kynn Bartlett, Mailing List Manager, HTML Writers Guild -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:53:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25886 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id QAA25788 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA25328 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA18209; Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:07:09 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960902162048.00824684@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 09:20:48 -0700 To: Brad Knowles From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:35 AM 8/30/96 -0400, Brad Knowles wrote: >Folks, > This guy apparently just junkmailed a large number of >Role-Playing Game related mailing lists, including one I maintain. >He went so far as to subscribe just long enough to junkmail everyone, >and then unsubscribed. Brad, apart from the fact that it would have been polite if he'd mailed owner- first, why's it necessarily junk mail? It's a little rude, but from the message (which I quoted below), it seems like it would be semi-on-topic for your lists. In other words, while it's probably not a cool thing he did, it seems a bit over-reactionary to start talking about locking out his site and blacklisting him via list-managers. (FWIW, I also run an RPG mailing list.) >--- begin forwarded text > >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:49:38 -0800 >To: palladium-frpg@skuld.gweep.net >From: raphael@harborside.com (James West) >Subject: The EMRoP needs YOU! >Precedence: bulk > >Hi folks, I've created a service called the E-Mail Role-Playing (EMRoP) >Network that provides links to RPG sites and most importantly has a growing >group of GMs running PBEM games through it. As soon as I get more GMs and >players it'll be real cool, but right now I only have a handful of both. >So, I'm looking for people who want to either play or dedicate some time to >running a game or two through my online service. If you're interested, >please let me know and if you know anyone that might be, please give them >my e-mail address and ask them to e-mail me. Thanks again. > > James the Charmer > (www.harborside.com/home/r/raphael) > >--- end forwarded text -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Milestone NOW! idyllmtn.com/~kynn/icons.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 17:57:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26510 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA22286 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 06:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id IAA30122; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:14:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199609041314.IAA30122@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: list command/.sigs To: today@di.com (Todd Day) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:14:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> from "Todd Day" at Sep 4, 96 02:43:10 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day said... | |I used to run with open lists. Got burned by spammers. Now I have to deal |with tracking down these unsubscribe (and address change) cases myself. |That's why you'll find list managers bitter over crap caused by these email |spammers. You go out of your way to do a service for the net to pay back |the institution that has given you so much, and some johnny-come-lately |appears and screws it all up for you - making you into the computer |security nazi you always loathed as an undergraduate. Actually, I loathe the spammers as much as anyone. My only point is that there are actually legitimate reasons for an outsider to run a lists command. I contend that doing that is not a wrong, illegal, sinful, immoral or fattening act in and of itself. It's why you do it and what you do with it that determines this. And I would have no problem with first time spammers being put in the stocks, publicly, for a week or so, on a diet of bread and water. Further acts of spam should be subject to much, much stiffer penalties. And if anyone cares, obnoxious telephone solicitors would receive the same fate If I Ran The Justice System (polite ones who accept your "no", don't call at dinnertime, and don't call back would go free). |[Warning, strong opinions ahead] | |Personally, I've always considered .sigs to be the appendix of the |electronic letter body - perhaps useful early in its evolution, but |completely useless today (possibly poisonous :-) I mean, if I want your |address or phone number, I'll just email you for it. Well, an email address is sometimes useful, because there are *still* mailers and gateways and list software and whatnot that mangle the return addresses. And a phone number/address can be handy if someone is on a link thet gets mail infrequently, or doesn't sit in front of a screen with a mail app or biff running all the time. |Or, hey, I don't |think I've ever seen *that* clever quote from (insert science fiction film |or book or tv series) in all my ten years of reading USENET! Hell, one of |my workmates still uses that "To err is human... to really screw things up |requires a computer" quote in his .sig. Even the cheez gift industry |stopped using that one - the last coffee mug I saw with that quote actually |used greenbar paper with the font found at the bottom of checks! And herein lies the real use of .sigs - they tell you something about the person. Your workmate, for instance, either has a severely devolved sense of humor, or really doesn't "get" computers. (Or maybe it's caraso, and that's just newbie bait.) -Miles, no .sig most of the time From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 20:58:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25693 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postie.das.gov.au (postie.das.gov.au [147.211.53.231]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25666 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from garry.pur.das.gov.au (garry.pur.das.gov.au [147.211.63.110]) by postie.das.gov.au (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA12723 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:51:49 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 13:51:49 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960906134734.2bcf2f4e@zeus.das.gov.au> X-Sender: strden@zeus.das.gov.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Denis Strangman Subject: PUBSEC e-mail list survey results Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I have placed a rtf version of the preliminary consolidation of the responses to a survey I conducted in July of the Australian-based PUBSEC (public sector management, reform and commercialisation) list at the following ftp site: ftp://caspa.itcs.das.gov.au/pub/ Simply click on the document named and save and read or print. The original questionnaire is also on the same page at The list had been going for six months and had 365 subscribers, of whom 122 took part in the survey. There were 91 Australian and 31 non-Australian respondents (mostly USA, Canadian and UK). Topics covered include: employment category, age range, female representation (30%), duration of list membership, relevance and volume of postings, awareness of other similar lists, number of other lists belonged to (av 4.1), e-mail system used (18 different ones), Web browsing capacity (10% no), list e-mail reading rate (75% daily), message on-forwarding activity, USENET v listservs, moderation v unmoderation, etc. Looking for a suitable vehicle in which to publish/present the analysis and commentary. Cheers Denis Strangman Department of Administrative Services, GPO Box 1920 Canberra, ACT, 2601, Australia. E-mail: denis.strangman@das.gov.au Phone: +61 6 2758808 fax +61 6 2753464 PUBSEC URL: http://www.das.gov.au/~world/listserv/pub_sec.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 5 21:28:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA00306 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from main.ewol.com (main.ewol.com [205.240.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA00137 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp11.ewol.com ([205.240.238.21]) by main.ewol.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11750) with SMTP id AAA307; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:15:02 -0400 Received: by ppp11.ewol.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9B89.61B50A20@ppp11.ewol.com>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:21:43 -0400 Message-ID: <01BB9B89.61B50A20@ppp11.ewol.com> From: Ken/Jennifer/Becca Burch To: "'3COM-L%NUSVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'" <3COM-L%NUSVM.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>, "'3D@LBL.GOV'" <3D@LBL.GOV>, "'78-L@CORNELL.CIT.CORNELL.EDU'" <78-L@CORNELL.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>, "'90210@FERKEL.UCSB.EDU'" <90210@FERKEL.UCSB.EDU>, "'9370-L%HEARN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU'" <9370-L%HEARN.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>, "'A.RICE%HAMPVMS.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU'" To: "'AACRL@UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU'" , "'AAI@ST-LOUIS-EMA2.ARMY.MIL'" , "'AAI@ST-LOUIS-EMH2.ARMY.MIL'" , "'ACCENTSERVER@NIS.COM'" , "'ACCORDION@CS.CMU.EDU'" , "'ADND-L%UTARLVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'" To: "'ADVISE-L%CANADAO1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'" , "'AECM-L@LOYOLA.EDU'" , "'AFAS-L@KENTVM.KENT.EDU'" , "'AI-ED@SUN.COM'" , "'AI-KAPPA-PC@MAILBASE.AC.UK'" , "'AI-MEDICINE@MED.STANFORD.EDU'" To: "'AIL-L@AUSTIN.ONU.EDU'" , "'AIX-L%BUACCA.BITNET@MITVNA.MIT.EDU'" , "'ALCOHOL-PSYCHOL@MAILBASE.AC.UK'" , "'ALPHA-OSF-MANAGERS@ORNL.GOV'" , "'AMNESTY@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU'" , "'ANIMAL-RIGHTS@CS.ODU.EDU'" To: "'ANMI-L@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK'" , "'ASMICRO-L@VME131.LSI.USP ANSP.BR'" , "'BALLROOM@ATHENA.MIT.EDU'" , "'BATAILLE@THINK.NET'" , "'BBSHOP@CRAY.COM'" , "'BGRASS-L@UKCC.UKY.EDU'" To: "'BIO-NAUT@IRLEARN.UCD.IE'" , "'BIODCEN-L@UCJEPS.BERKELEY.EDU'" , "'BIOMCH-L@NIC.SURFNET.NL'" , "'BIZ-MARKETING-CONSULTING@WORLD.STD.COM'" , "'BRIHPRNT@INDYCMS.IUPI.EDU'" , "'BRS-L%USCVM.BITNET@VM1.NODAK.EDU'" To: "'BUDDHIST-PHILOSOPHY@THINK.NET'" , "'BUGNET@WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU'" , "'C370-L@CMUVM.CSV.CMJCH.EDU'" , "'CALIBK12@SJSUVM1.STSU.EDU'" , "'CBT-GENERAL@VIRGINIA.EDU'" , "'CDPUB@KNEX.VIA.MIND.ORG'" To: "'CELL-CHURCH@BIBLE.ACU.EDU'" , "'CFS-FILE@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU'" , "'CLIMLIST@PSUVM.PSU.EDU'" , "'COMMERCIAL.REALESTATE@DATA-BASE.COM'" , "'COMMUNET@UVMVM.UVM.EDU'" , "'CPARK-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU'" To: "'CREATIVITY@THINK.NET'" , "'CUMREC-L%NDSUVM1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU'" , "'CW-EMAIL@EARNCC.EARN.NET'" , "'CYBER-L@BITNIC.EDUCOM.EDU'" , "'CYBSYS-L@BINGVMB.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU'" , "'CYSTIC-L@YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU'" To: "'CYTONET@NET.BIO.NET'" , "'DDTS-USERS@BIGBIRD.BU.EDU'" , "'DESIGN-L@PSUVM.PSU.EDU'" , "'DOROTHYL@KENTVM.KENT.EDU'" , "'E-HUG@DARTCMS1.DARTMOUTH.EDU'" , "'EAP@PGE.COM'" To: "'EYE-MOVEMENT@MAILBASE.AC.UK'" , "'FICTION-OF-PHILOSOPHY@WORLD.STD.COM'" , "'FINEART@ECS.UMASS.EDU'" , "'FOODWINE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU'" , "'HYDROGEN@URIACC.URI.EDU'" , "'IBM-NETS@BITNIC.EDUCOM.EDU'" To: "'INET-MARKETING@EINET.NET'" , "'INFO-ANDREW-BUGS@ANDREW.CMU.EDU'" , "'INFO-C@RESEARCH.ATT.COM'" , "'INFO-IRIS@ARL.MIL'" , "'INFORMIX-LIST@RMY.EMORY.EDU'" , "'IPCT-L@GUVM.GEORGETOWN.EDU'" To: "'JUMP-IN-THE-RIVER@PRESTO.IG.COM'" , "'LABMGR@UKCC.UKY.EDU'" , "'LIBRES@KENTVM.KENT.EDU'" , "'LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM'" , "'MARTECH@CSCNS.COM'" , "'PCBUILD@TSCVM.TRENTON.EDU'" To: "'POPCULT@CAMOSUN.BC.CA'" , "'PROG-PUBS@FUGGLES.ACC.VIRGINIA.EDU'" , "'PROTOCOL@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU'" , "'RAR-L@CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU'" , "'RC.WORLD@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU'" , "'REACTIVE@VM1.MCGILL.CA'" To: "'STAGECRAFT@JAGUAR.CS.UTAH.EDU'" , "'SUN-NETS@UMIACS.UMD.EDU'" , "'SWIM-L@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU'" , "'TEXTILES@TREARN.BITNET'" , "'VTCAD-L@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU'" , "'WEB4LIB@LIBRARY.BERKELEY.EDU'" To: "'WEIGHTS@MICKEY.DISNEY.COM'" , "'WILDWEST@MOOSE.UVM.EDU'" , "'YACHT-L@HEARN.NIC.SURFNET.NL'" Cc: "'klogan@ewol.com'" Subject: Free health tape Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 00:20:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, sorry for the intrusion but, my name is Ken and I have something = for you. If you are at all interested in living a long and healthy life = you will want to hear this audio tape.=09 Dr. Joel Wallach, 1991 Nobel prize nominee for medicine narrates this = informative tape, that has made a very positive difference in my life = and that of my family. Learn how the average medical doctor only lives = to the age of 58. Learn how doctors of veterinary medicine cured = arthritis, diabetes and ulcers in animals 20 years ago. Also discover a = dirt cheap arthritis fix from the grocery store and other alarming = medical information.=09 Please E mail me your mailing address at klogan@ewol.com and I will = send you a free tape. Please also include your E mail address. Sorry, = U.S. residents only. Thanks for your time. Ken. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 05:44:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA27148 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id FAA27119 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 05:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28674 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA04889; Fri, 6 Sep 96 08:35:33 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609061235.AA04889@smoe.org> Subject: heads-up: spam from cd006109@interramp.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks: cd006109@interramp.com (M. Zinini) subscribed to one of my lists on Sept. 3, and then sent out a vitamin spam (the subject was ??? Vitamins Below Retail ???) today. If he's on your lists, you probably want to nuke him. -jeff From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 09:16:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA19191 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.iunet.it (ns.iunet.it [192.106.1.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA19091 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tai.iunet.it (relay.tai.iunet.it) by ns.iunet.it with SMTP id AA28210 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:59:41 +0200 Received: by tai.iunet.it (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16693; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:55:13 +0200 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:55:13 +0200 From: beltrami@relay.tai.iunet.it (Riccardo Beltrami) Message-Id: <9609061555.AA16693@tai.iunet.it> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Archiving list messages X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I apologize if this is not the correct site where to post this question to. I run a small mailing list (maintenance) for enterprise internal purposes and I want to archive messages sent to the list. I use Majordomo 1.93 and archive2.pl, these are the settings I use: alias file: maintenance: "|/export/server/majordom/wrapper resend -l maintenance -h tai.iunet.it maintenance-outgoing" maintenance-outgoing: :include:/export/server/majordom/lists/maintenance, maintenance-archive maintenance-archive: "|/export/server/majordom/wrapper archive -f /export/server/majordom/archives/maintenance/maintenance -m -a" majordomo.cf file: # Majordomo will look for "get" and "index" files related to $list in # directory "$filedir/$list$filedir_suffix", so set $filedir and # $filedir_suffix appropriately. For instance, to look in # /usr/local/mail/files/$list, use: # $filedir = "/usr/local/mail/files"; # $filedir_suffix = ""; # empty string # or to look in $listdir/$list.archive, use: # $filedir = "$listdir"; # $filedir_suffix = ".archive"; $filedir = "/export/server/majordom/archives"; $filedir_suffix = ""; When I send a message to the list, Majordomo resend it to all subscribers but abort archiving sending this message to the list owner: From majordom Fri Sep 6 17:22 MET 1996 Return-Path: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:22:13 +0200 To: Postmaster From: Majordomo Subject: MAJORDOMO ABORT -- MAJORDOMO ABORT Invalid archive directory. Aborting. Can anyone show me where is the problem? Thanks, Riccardo. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 11:59:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA08874 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sara.zia.com ([204.30.30.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA08831 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lcfw.zia.com ([204.30.30.185]) by sara.zia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12328) with SMTP id AAA347 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:41:31 -0600 Received: by lcfw.zia.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB9C01.D1A3E4A0@lcfw.zia.com>; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:43:50 -0400 Message-ID: <01BB9C01.D1A3E4A0@lcfw.zia.com> From: fwaid@sara.zia.com (Fred M. Waid) To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Judge orders online service to stop blocking 'junk' mail Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:43:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Below is an article concerned with America Online's decision to block = mass "junk" e-mails. Before you decide to block access to your lists, you should consider = this information and carefully review the final outcome of the pending = trial. Regardless of our feelings or the debates in which we engage, we will = all have to abide by the decisions of the courts. =20 Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- PHILADELPHIA, Pa. (Sep 6, 1996 12:23 p.m. EDT) -- A federal judge has = ordered America Online to stop blocking up to 1.8 million "junk" e-mail = files flooding subscribers' electronic mailboxes daily from a = Philadelphia marketing firm. AOL, the nation's largest provider of online services, announced = Wednesday that it had blocked five sites that serve as clearinghouses = for unsolicited, commercial mailings. Pending a trial tentatively scheduled for Nov. 12, U.S. District Judge = Charles R. Weiner ordered AOL Thursday to lift the block on Cyber = Promotions' mailings. Weiner is presiding over a suit Cyber Promotions = Inc. filed accusing AOL of trying to drive it out of business. Cyber Promotions controls three of the five sites blocked by AOL. The = others -- one that distributes software to create bulk e-mail lists and = one that had sent out ads for Internet video porn -- were not affected = by Weiner's order. AOL attorney David Phillips said the company was considering an appeal. = He said AOL customers had been "complaining vociferously about Cyber = Promotions' junk mail." Sanford A. Wallace, the president of Cyber Promotions, was pleased about = the decision. "We feel that America Online has violated the civil rights of their = members and has violated our rights to send e-mail through the Internet, = which AOL does not own," he said. Although unsolicited mail sent through the post office in the United = States is not considered illegal, the rules have yet to be defined in = cyberspace. The larger services -- AOL, Prodigy and Compuserve -- all = have policies forbidding mass junk mailings From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 12:44:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA15785 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA15760 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 12:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.21]) id QQbgan23216; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by spitfire.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA08415 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA02057 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:22:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:22:51 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199609061922.PAA02057@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >PHILADELPHIA, Pa. (Sep 6, 1996 12:23 p.m. EDT) -- A federal judge has = >ordered America Online to stop blocking up to 1.8 million "junk" e-mail = >files flooding subscribers' electronic mailboxes daily from a = >Philadelphia marketing firm. This is neither uncommon nor unexpected, as far as I'm concerned; most courts seem to direct 'business as usual' while suits are thrashed about. [...] >Sanford A. Wallace, the president of Cyber Promotions, was pleased about = >the decision. > >"We feel that America Online has violated the civil rights of their = >members and has violated our rights to send e-mail through the Internet, = >which AOL does not own," he said. Um, I would be very quick to argue that no Internet site accepts any obligation to accept anything/everything. If anyone can produce a connectivity contract that specifies such, I'd love to read it. [...] >Although unsolicited mail sent through the post office in the United = >States is not considered illegal, the rules have yet to be defined in = >cyberspace. The larger services -- AOL, Prodigy and Compuserve -- all = >have policies forbidding mass junk mailings Speaking off the cuff, it seems to me that all a provider would have to do is give their members an opt-out. Something like this: "There are companies which send unsolicited commercial email to our customers. We have the capability of blocking this unsolicited email, but we will not do so without your consent. You may view the list of blocked companies by [...] Do you want us to block this email for you?" --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 16:14:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA09942 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA09862 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA15218 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15144; Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:48:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609041848.NAA15144@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: today@di.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list command/.sigs In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Sep 1996 02:43:10 -0700" References: <3.0b15.32.19960904024306.00b7e818@mail.di.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:48:51 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "TD" == Todd Day writes: [...] TD> If someone subscribes from a machine like apple.fruit.com but their TD> simple email address is user@fruit.com, often their From: address will TD> be user@apple.fruit.com and the automated packages will sign them up at TD> that address. [...] When they go to unsubscribe, perhaps they are TD> using orange.fruit.com that day. In addition to the "fuzzy" match that majordomo can use (which needs to be worked on, and is on my list) it also sends exact instructions for removing yourself even when your address changes. Unfortunately it does this when you subscribe, and subscribers are often too clueless to save the message. (Yes, it does say "save this message". If only I could make it blink.) TD> What recourse for the user? Grab the user list, figure out which TD> address they got subscribed as, and try again. Majordomo has the "which" command that will will do a substring search on all of the subscriber lists. (Yes, you can limit the number of hits, at least in the version that just went beta.) While the probability of this matching does go down with the size of the list, it does work rather well and doesn't require pulling down the whole subscriber list. Do other list servers not do this? (It's a real question; I've always used Majordomo). If there's something else that can be done I'd be interested in hearing about it. TD> [...] Now I have to deal with tracking down these unsubscribe (and TD> address change) cases myself. I say "Ug. Send Received: headers, you get off list. Ug." and go back to business. It usually doesn't take any time at all to track things down based on that. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 17:44:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26498 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA26375 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609070034.RAA26375@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0440; Sat, 07 Sep 96 02:30:50 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 4638; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 02:30:50 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:57:49 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:22:51 -0400 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The problem is that AOL is blocking all mail from company 1, company 2, ... company 5, based on origin rather than contents. Thus, AOL is preventing these companies from communicating with AOL customers, which clearly stands in the way of doing business with AOL customers. Solution 1 is to offer AOL customers the ability to block mail from certain companies, and then provide a clickomatic way for an AOL user to say "I never want to see mail from this company again" when reading a spam. Then the user expresses a desire not to communicate with the companies in question and that's too bad for the spam factory. If AOL were to provide a pre-built list of companies, they could probably be sued for libel (I'm not saying they would win, but that there would probably be grounds to actually go to court). Solution 2 is to filter the messages based on having been sent to an indiscriminately broad audience, rather than based on who sent them or what they were about. AOL could publish a policy that it will not accept e-mail sent to more than 500 AOL users, regardless of who sends it or what the message is about. All they would have to do is update the paperwork that people have to sign before joining to ask AOL to take all steps to please suppress as much unsolicited e-mail as possible (maybe users should be given the option to get all the junk if they want it). Or AOL could say this is a necessary step due to the load it places on AOL's servers or whatever. The spam factories are still free to do business with AOL, they just can't send spams any longer. I can't release details, but some spamming joints seem to have gotten major financial help lately. We're talking about people who are ordering a T3 and have six figure money to buy hardware and software to spam millions of people in a matter of hours. Make that tens of millions. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 17:59:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA28829 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merckx.graphics.cornell.edu (MERCKX.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.147]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA28811 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by merckx.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13198; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:56:25 -0400 Message-Id: <9609070056.AA13198@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU) by MAX-F.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA051557780; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:56:20 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Eric Thomas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:57:49 +0200." <199609070034.RAA26375@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:56:19 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Solution 2 is to filter the messages based on having been sent to an >indiscriminately broad audience, rather than based on who sent them or >what they were about. AOL could publish a policy that it will not accept >e-mail sent to more than 500 AOL users, regardless of who sends it or >what the message is about. So how many list managers here have 500 or more aol subscribers on a single list? (I'm sure there are some. I don't but I'm not so far from it either.) OK juggle the numbers if you want but the point is how do you propose to differentiate list mail from spam mail under this solution? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 18:14:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29095 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA29066 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609070100.SAA29066@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0550; Sat, 07 Sep 96 02:56:43 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 4879; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 02:56:43 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 02:54:52 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: Mitch Collinsworth cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:56:19 -0400 from Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 20:56:19 -0400 Mitch Collinsworth said: >So how many list managers here have 500 or more aol subscribers on a >single list? (I'm sure there are some. I don't but I'm not so far from >it either.) OK juggle the numbers if you want but the point is how do >you propose to differentiate list mail from spam mail under this >solution? I'm talking about direct person to person e-mail here, not mail sent to mailing lists or stuff posted to usenet. LISTSERV will filter list spam for you and there are cancelbots for usenet. The spammers are switching to direct delivery so they can bypass all these things and hit the users directly. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 18:17:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29547 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.phoenix.net (mail.phoenix.net [199.3.232.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA29529 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:06:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spiralnet.com.phoenix.net (spiralnet.com [199.3.234.29]) by mail.phoenix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA20753 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:06:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199609070106.UAA20753@mail.phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:03:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... Reply-to: klong@spiralnet.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that they are getting ready to address this issue. Below is an excerpt from their press release dated 9/4/96 of which the full text is available at http://www.aol.com/about/press/1996/960904e.txt In addition, later this month AOL will release a new feature that will assist the individual member to customize their email and refuse mass mailings. Currently, members can forward junk email to a representative of AOL's Terms of Service department or simply hit the "ignore" button at the bottom of the list of new mail. On 7 Sep 96 at 1:57, Eric Thomas wrote: >[...] > Solution 1 is to offer AOL customers the ability to block mail from > certain companies, and then provide a clickomatic way for an AOL user to > say "I never want to see mail from this company again" when reading a > spam. Then the user expresses a desire not to communicate with the > companies in question and that's too bad for the spam factory. [...] -- Namaste' Kimberly Long Houston, Texas mailto:klong@spiralnet.com From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 18:29:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00507 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA00500 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609070123.SAA00500@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 0636; Sat, 07 Sep 96 03:20:23 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 5051; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:20:24 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:19:07 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:18:57 -0400 from Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You're right, make it 25,000 or something more reasonable given AOL's total subscriber count. Spammers aren't interested in reaching tens of thousands of random people because their return rate is probably under or around 1%. They need to reach millions of people to make it worth their while. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 18:32:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00245 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merckx.graphics.cornell.edu (MERCKX.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.147]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA00233 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by merckx.graphics.cornell.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA14476; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:18:59 -0400 Message-Id: <9609070118.AA14476@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> Received: from graphics.cornell.edu (BROCCOLI.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU) by MAX-F.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA052069138; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:18:58 -0400 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Eric Thomas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 07 Sep 1996 02:54:52 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 21:18:57 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'm talking about direct person to person e-mail here, not mail sent to >mailing lists or stuff posted to usenet. LISTSERV will filter list spam >for you and there are cancelbots for usenet. The spammers are switching >to direct delivery so they can bypass all these things and hit the users >directly. Hmm... Eric, I think you missed my point. I didn't mean spam being sent to lists. I meant good old every day list traffic. You suggested AOL adopt a policy of blocking any message sent to more than 500 AOL users, regardless of sender or content. I'm saying what about a largish mailing list that has 500 or more AOL subscribers? When someone sends a message to that list the result will be a single message sent to 500 or more AOL subscribers. Hard to distinguish from a spam if you ignore source and content! -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 19:44:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA02843 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA02812 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 19:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id WAA24406; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:34:12 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609070234.WAA24406@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199609070034.RAA26375@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at Sep 7, 96 01:57:49 am Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas wrote: > > The problem is that AOL is blocking all mail from company 1, company 2, > ... company 5, based on origin rather than contents. Thus, AOL is > preventing these companies from communicating with AOL customers, which > clearly stands in the way of doing business with AOL customers. Now while I'm not a lawyer, it seems pretty clear that AOL has never made an agreement with company1, ..., company5 to accept their e-mail. If AOL chooses to, that's fine. If not, that's fine. As long as AOL isn't getting any consideration (i.e., money) for delivery, they have no obligation to do so, or to continue to do so even if they previously did so. The "preventing...from communicating" argument just doesn't hold water; they can reach AOL subscribers in plenty of (non-free) ways, but not necessarily by free email spam to all AOL accounts. They never had a "right" to do that in the first place. Remember, for years, AOL subscribers couldn't get Internet email at all. The only tricky question might be what AOL might have promised their subscribers, but then the potential liability would only be to the subscriber and not the external spammer. (And I bet they have enough legalese limiting liability to amounts paid by the subscriber anyway, in case one of those companies planted a "mole" AOL subscriber.) I'm hoping this question will get a legal ruling in favor of AOL as "damnably favorable" as the ruling against the CDA was. Sometimes, the courts are more intelligent than the jerks who think they can get away with anything make them out to be. Cheers, Stan. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 20:59:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA09655 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA09508 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id UAA01486; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 20:32:39 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0uzBVh-000gd0C; Fri, 6 Sep 96 17:44 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Judge orders online service to stop blocking 'junk' mail To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:44:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <01BB9C01.D1A3E4A0@lcfw.zia.com> from "Fred M. Waid" at Sep 6, 96 02:43:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Fred M. Waid is alleged to have written => PHILADELPHIA, Pa. (Sep 6, 1996 12:23 p.m. EDT) -- A federal judge has = => ordered America Online to stop blocking up to 1.8 million "junk" e-mail = => files flooding subscribers' electronic mailboxes daily from a = => Philadelphia marketing firm. => => AOL, the nation's largest provider of online services, announced = => Wednesday that it had blocked five sites that serve as clearinghouses = => for unsolicited, commercial mailings. => => Pending a trial tentatively scheduled for Nov. 12, U.S. District Judge = => Charles R. Weiner ordered AOL Thursday to lift the block on Cyber = => Promotions' mailings. Weiner is presiding over a suit Cyber Promotions = => Inc. filed accusing AOL of trying to drive it out of business. Does anyone know how to file an amicus curia brief? -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | It's time to taste what you most fear james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Right Guard will not help you here. | Brace yourself, my dear! | It's a holiday in Cambodia! From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 21:59:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA13957 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA13928 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 21:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA07228; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:57:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199609070457.XAA07228@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Illegitimate information... To: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:57:32 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609051702.NAA03583@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> from "Wes Morgan" at Sep 5, 96 01:02:48 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan said... | |I think that the crux of the matter, in this case, is the fact |that the behavior in question came from a source which (IMHO) |should have both known better *and* given forewarning. I certainly agree they should know better, but my impression so far (based on somewhat limited dealings, granted) with digital.com is tha they have good intentions, but things aren't working as well as they should. Can't tell if it's communication problems, or growth-related problems or what. |One must wonder how our counterparts within DEC would react if |one of us just started winkling out every listserver in the |digital.com domain. One could always try... -Miles From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 6 23:59:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA21592 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA21585 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id BAA07753; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:54:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199609070654.BAA07753@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Judge orders online service to stop blocking 'junk' mail To: fwaid@sara.zia.com (Fred M. Waid) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:54:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Fred, Thanks for the heads-up. |"We feel that America Online has violated the civil rights of their = |members and has violated our rights to send e-mail through the Internet, = |which AOL does not own," he said. Gosh, my faith in the Humanus Corporatus is rekindled. It's nice to know this guy had nothing in mind bnut the civil rights of the AOL subscribers when he sent the email. Weasel. Weasel. Weasel. Weasel. That's my opinion. Weasel. Weasel. Weasel. Weasel. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 01:44:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA26702 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xipe.tezcat.com (xipe.tezcat.com [204.128.247.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA26684 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ilixi@localhost) by xipe.tezcat.com (8.7.5/tezcat-pb-patch) id DAA14404; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:32:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 03:32:43 -0500 (CDT) From: "C. Ewen MacMillan" Subject: Re: FYI: On blocking sites. (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: postmaster@tezcat.net, kasparek@tezcat.net Message-Id: Reply-To: ilixi@tezcat.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 15:10:40 -0400 >From: Jailbait >To: elbows@mc.lcs.mit.edu >Subject: FYI: On blocking sites. > >>From list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Sep 6 15:08:15 1996 >From: fwaid@sara.zia.com (Fred M. Waid) >To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" >Subject: Judge orders online service to stop blocking 'junk' mail >Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:43:49 -0400 >Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM >Precedence: bulk > >Below is an article concerned with America Online's decision to block = >mass "junk" e-mails. >Before you decide to block access to your lists, you should consider = >this information and carefully review the final outcome of the pending = >trial. > >Regardless of our feelings or the debates in which we engage, we will = >all have to abide by the decisions of the courts. =20 Both contrary to your assessment of the meaning of the decision, and contrary to your (apparent) beliefs about the decision, it should not in fact be either a guideline for how we should behave as RP's for our given lists or domains, nor should a decision imply that we all need abide same. A service provider, or a list maintainer is the maintainer of a subset of publishing rights [1] which are constitutionally protected, as well as responsible parties in relation to the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986. Before anyone flames me into the millenium, we have followed the ECPA since its beginning, and based all of our client privacy policies on same. En nuce: 1) Define your clients' email to be private property. It IS private property unless you insist upon monitoring their conversations. If you do monitor private communications, then cease to do so, and update your AUP accordingly. 2) Assert the right to enforce compliance to your own AUP (or write a goddamn AUP if you have not done so). 3) Define in said AUP, as much as possible of your network to be private property as you can get away with. If you are but a list maintainer as opposed to an administrator of a site, encourage your administrator to write a reasonable AUP [2}. If said administrator is a nincompoop, then either find a new site administrator or charter your list in no uncertain terms - a moderated list at bare legal minimums affords you the rights of a publisher (along with the baggage of same) - you certainly need not publish on the basis of Constitutionality when you are effectively footing the bill. For the site administrators out there who will either see this ruling as a justifcation for entering the spam marketplace, or who feel bewildered study USC 47 sub 22 and draw your own conclusions. If you violate the AUP of another site which prohibits unsolicited mail you are liable under the same ruling for any damages which the prosecuting site claims as well as the response of a quick call to the FBI Computer Crimes Division. It can make your life more difficult than you might imagine. In short don't take this ruling as being applicable to you until it is proven to to so be, which is not going to happen any time soon. If any site administrors would appreciate suggestions on how to implement the same mail filtering that was applied at AOL (or more severe filtering) please reply to me directly for a current procmailrc. Remember legality is a matter of what the public will accept - please write your congressman or equivalent representative and state your position on this matter. Always be polite but firm. We are the scientists in this grandest of all social experiments. We should not expect the uninvolved to see things from our perspectives. ] Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, nor am I legally approved to give legal advice, nor is my employer a legal clearinghouse. On the other hand we have been net.active in the issue of spam for years. All of what I say above has been argued by an IP (intellectual property) to be correct. Footnotes: 1) USC 47 sub 22 entails that any advertising which passes on the cost of same to the recipient, or any third party is illegal. This places spamming under the same restricitions as broadcast FAX. 2) Please see http:.//www.tezcat.com/tezcat-aup.html. We encourage you to develop you own AUP, and not to copy same (which was not written by a lawyer) but which was acceptable from an NSFNET perspective (at such time as the NSFNET existed per se.) -- C. Ewen MacMillan From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 05:44:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA05852 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id FAA05845 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 05:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts19-09.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.138.189]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id IAA09918; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 08:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609071224.IAA09918@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: fwaid@sara.zia.com (Fred M. Waid) From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Judge orders online service to stop blocking 'junk' mail Cc: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:43 PM 06/09/96 -0400, Fred M. Waid wrote: >Below is an article concerned with America Online's decision to block mass "junk" e-mails. >Before you decide to block access to your lists, you should consider this information and carefully review the final outcome of the pending trial. > >Regardless of our feelings or the debates in which we engage, we will all have to abide by the decisions of the courts. > >Fred I don't see how a decision by the courts on the operation of a common carrier have any relevance to the operation of moderated lists. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 07:29:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA10298 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 07:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA10291 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 07:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (950221.405.SGI.8.6.10/920502.SGI.AUTO) id LAA12843; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:06:53 -0300 From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <199609071406.LAA12843@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Re: list command/.sigs To: kynn@idyllmtn.com (Kynn Bartlett) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:06:33 -0300 (ADT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960907003152.006f2fc0@mail.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Sep 6, 96 05:31:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 08:17 AM 9/6/96 -0300, Bill Silvert wrote: >>If you re-read the message, you will see that the which command doesn't >>help (unless you want to try to guess at every possible address, which >>isn't always easy when administrators keep playing games with your >>gateway). > >Eh? If your administrators change your gateway, just send something >like: > >'which dfo' > >or > >'which bill' Uh huh. Two problems with this. First, it generates a hell of a lot of output to search through (I just tried it on my own site, and got almost 300 addresses back). Second, which is a protty good alternative to lists, and if you are serious about turning off the lists command, you really should permit the which command. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 09:29:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA13929 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA13922 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA00703; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:21:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960907163437.00813a40@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 09:34:37 -0700 To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: list command/.sigs Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill, I sent that privately to you (I just checked my outfile). Why did you post the following to the list, anyway? At 11:06 AM 9/7/96 -0300, Bill Silvert wrote: >>At 08:17 AM 9/6/96 -0300, Bill Silvert wrote: [the following was written by me, Kynn Bartlett] >>Eh? If your administrators change your gateway, just send something >>like: >> >>'which dfo' >> >>or >> >>'which bill' >Uh huh. Two problems with this. First, it generates a hell of a lot of >output to search through (I just tried it on my own site, and got almost >300 addresses back). Second, which is a protty good alternative to >lists, and if you are serious about turning off the lists command, you >really should permit the which command. I don't see any point in arguing this with you, since you don't really seem to have any point here. Ta! -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 10:14:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA14548 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA14504 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 09:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609071659.JAA14504@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2602; Sat, 07 Sep 96 18:56:37 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 9115; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:56:37 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 18:52:48 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: Stan Ryckman cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 6 Sep 1996 22:34:11 -0400 (EDT) from Stan Ryckman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Obviously AOL is free to stop accepting Internet mail. The problem is that AOL has been singling out a number of companies, and rejecting any and all mail coming from them. What you would say if MSN did not accept e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 10:44:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA15213 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA15203 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA09268; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:28:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199609071728.MAA09268@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:28:10 -0500 (CDT) Cc: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609071659.JAA14504@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at Sep 7, 96 06:52:48 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas said... | |Obviously AOL is free to stop accepting Internet mail. The problem is |that AOL has been singling out a number of companies, and rejecting any |and all mail coming from them. What you would say if MSN did not accept |e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you |still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? 1) That's a completely different case - AOL is not trying to stifle competition; they are trying to provide a service to their users, and cut down on waste. Whether or not they are gioing about it correctly is currently being debated, not whether they are stifling competition. Note the quote by the Slime King - the claim that they are trying to protect the "civil rights" of AOLers - not their own. 2) It wouldn't surprise me in the least if MSN *did* try it. It would be consistent with the overall MS marketing strategy... -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 12:14:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA19503 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp3.netcom.com [163.179.3.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA19496 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA09221; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:53:08 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0uzSLc-000gd0C; Sat, 7 Sep 96 11:43 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Eric Thomas is alleged to have written => Obviously AOL is free to stop accepting Internet mail. The problem is => that AOL has been singling out a number of companies, and rejecting any => and all mail coming from them. What you would say if MSN did not accept => e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you => still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? Yes, I would. Why should Microsoft (a company I abhor) be required to subsidize the advertizing of competitors? -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | It's time to taste what you most fear james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Right Guard will not help you here. | Brace yourself, my dear! | It's a holiday in Cambodia! From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 12:44:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA20966 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA20958 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id MAA10166; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3231CE29.62F9@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:35:22 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... References: <199609071659.JAA14504@miles.greatcircle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas wrote: > > Obviously AOL is free to stop accepting Internet mail. The problem is > that AOL has been singling out a number of companies, and rejecting any > and all mail coming from them. What you would say if MSN did not accept > e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you > still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? Yes. That's how a free market works. Now, if MSN did that, it would quickly become a laughingstock of an ISP, and their action might be construed as violating their customer agreement to provide Internet access, but that's a private contract matter between MSN and its customers, and I don't see how a third party has standing to contest it. I haven't read the court papers in the AOL case, but it sounds like the trial judge, in granting the TRO or preliminary injunction, has badly misunderstood how the Internet works and it looks like he or she has been bamboozled into thinking that AOL's inbound blocking somehow cuts off the spammers' general Internet access. As a matter of law, AOL should prevail on the merits. Having said that, I don't think blanket inbound blocking by ISPs is a good policy, except with prior notice to and consent of the customer. Providing tools for users to block messages by origin or content is a much better solution, and apparently it is in the works. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 12:47:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA21602 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:42:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA21539 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609071942.MAA21539@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2973; Sat, 07 Sep 96 21:39:08 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 9854; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:39:09 +0200 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:17:15 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) "James C. Armstrong" said: >Yes, I would. > >Why should Microsoft (a company I abhor) be required to subsidize the >advertizing of competitors? Who spoke about advertising? AOL is barring any and all communication from 5 companies. This includes spam, but also legitimate sales activity (Joe calls the company in question and leaves his AOL address), e-mail from employees of this company to their relatives who happen to have an AOL account, everything. I keep trying to say that this *indiscriminate* filtering is what is causing the present problem. Of course you and I know that these companies were created from the ground up for the sole purpose of spamming, but that's another story. Personally I think the first step in fighting spam in the legal arena is a law that clarifies that telemarketing laws apply to spamming and the Internet as well. People who call you on the phone to offer you the latest financial scam are required to state their name and the name of the company they work for. If they lie to you, they're in trouble. Similarly, spammers should be required to identify themselves and not forge mail headers to sell their wares anonymously. I'm not a lawyer, but this looks like a no-brainer to me. Why should anonymous solicitation be allowed just because it's done electronically? Once spammers are writing from their real addresses, you can sell people filters which throw away the spam from these companies, or bounce it back with a notice saying "I never want to hear from your company again". Telemarketing law impose penalties if you contact a customer within 6 months of such a request. I believe the fine is on the order of $2,500 *per call* and per person. So, a spam joint that ignores your request (possibly because the address cannot be replied to, so they don't have to foot the bill for receiving processing the flames) would expose itself to a class action where every victim could claim $2,500 per spam they received from the company, not counting the first one. 10,000 plaintiffs, 2 unwanted spams, $50,000,000. This will take care of SpamKing and the like, and the next step is for the high-budget spam joints to work together and develop some sort of protocol for responsible spamming, where messages would be clearly tagged as a spam, and mail programs would have a function to bounce all spam back in a standard format with the "I never want to hear from you again" request. There would also be an option to disable all incoming spam, regardless of who sent it. Software at the spam joint would then remove the victim from the mailing list and keep statistics. With such a system in place, spam could take place in a responsible manner. I'll bet that 95% of people would select "bounce any and all spam without even showing it to me" and that the spamming industry would disappear the way it appeared. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 14:44:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA27799 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA27790 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 14:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA08283 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:35:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199609072135.PAA08283@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:35:08 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > AOL is barring any and all communication from 5 companies. As is their right. As long as they tell their customers what they're doing (which they did in this case) I have no problem with it. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to find another email provider -- there are certainly enough to go around lately, and some of them are even free. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 15:59:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA00741 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cantec.com ([206.31.250.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA00732 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www by cantec.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.1i) id 2355100 ; Sat, 07 Sep 96 18:54:10 UTC Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960907224657.002c22d0@cantec.com> X-Sender: dbigham@cantec.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 18:46:57 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Bigham Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:35 PM 9/7/96 -0700, you wrote: >Eric Thomas wrote: >> >I haven't read the court papers in the AOL case, but it sounds like the >trial judge, in granting the TRO or preliminary injunction, has badly >misunderstood how the Internet works and it looks like he or she has >been bamboozled into thinking that AOL's inbound blocking somehow cuts >off the spammers' general Internet access. As a matter of law, AOL >should prevail on the merits. > >Having said that, I don't think blanket inbound blocking by ISPs is a >good policy, except with prior notice to and consent of the customer. >Providing tools for users to block messages by origin or content is a >much better solution, and apparently it is in the works. > >-- >Michael C. Berch >mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com > I can't agree with you in all of the above. AOL should prevail in this suit if, and only if, they have, as part of their subscriber agreement, a section which specifically states that they can filter out mail at their whim and without prior permission. The spammers are upset and cry "rights violation!", but it's the users rights which are being violated - whether they want to exercise them or not. If mail is addressed to me, it should go to me and not be subject to removal from the delivery stream before I have any say in the matter. If I request that a filter be put in place, fine. All kinds of "rights" are being discussed in this thread. None of them apply really. The entire situation arose because AOL wants to reduce costs. It costs connectivity resources (bigger data pipes) to handle all the spammers' mail. It costs personnel resources (more customer service reps) to handle the complaints. It costs revenue resources (lost customers) because of the aggravation. AOL is taking this course in pursuit of filthy lucre - period! Dave Bigham From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 17:02:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA04760 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA04753 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id QAA10693; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 16:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3232098B.20B1@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:49:02 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... References: <2.2.32.19960907224657.002c22d0@cantec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Bigham wrote: > [Michael Berch wrote:] > >I haven't read the court papers in the AOL case, but it sounds like the > >trial judge, in granting the TRO or preliminary injunction, has badly > >misunderstood how the Internet works and it looks like he or she has > >been bamboozled into thinking that AOL's inbound blocking somehow cuts > >off the spammers' general Internet access. As a matter of law, AOL > >should prevail on the merits. > > I can't agree with you in all of the above. AOL should prevail in this suit > if, and only if, they have, as part of their subscriber agreement, a section > which specifically states that they can filter out mail at their whim and > without prior permission. The spammers are upset and cry "rights > violation!", but it's the users rights which are being violated - whether > they want to exercise them or not. If mail is addressed to me, it should go > to me and not be subject to removal from the delivery stream before I have > any say in the matter. If I request that a filter be put in place, fine. But the suit is not *by* an AOL user -- it's by a third party (the spammers). In U.S. common law, there is a very important concept called "standing": that is, exactly who is privileged to ask a court to attempt to right a wrong, enforce a contract, etc. Generally speaking, if A and B make a contract which is breached by B, C (who has no agreement with either) has no standing to sue B for the breach. Only A may do so. (The same is true for tort cases, with some exceptions, and there are special rules for the government [of course :-)] and public policy issues. But typically a third party to a contract does not have standing.) Since it is the users' contract rights who are (arguably) being violated, it is up to a user to assert those rights; the spammer company cannot assert them vicariously. I can't think of a theory of law under which AOL owes a duty of performance to the spammer company. As to whether filtering the mail violates the AOL-user agreement; I can't comment since I do not have the Terms of Service in front of me. If they are silent on the subject it could easily be argued either way and there are good arguments on both sides, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion. > AOL is taking this course in pursuit of filthy lucre - period! Well, one person's "filthy lucre" is another's "sound business judgment". Presumably AOL is taking this step for a variety of business reasons, ranging from the capacity issues you mention, to good public relations, to wanting to protect the *other* commercial solicitations that it exposes its members to (and charges advertisers for). I don't find any of these to be unacceptable business ethics. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 17:14:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA07007 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA07000 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609080007.RAA07000@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3998; Sun, 08 Sep 96 02:04:09 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1999; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:04:09 +0200 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:03:20 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:49:02 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:49:02 -0700 "Michael C. Berch" said: >Since it is the users' contract rights who are (arguably) being >violated, it is up to a user to assert those rights; the spammer company >cannot assert them vicariously. I can't think of a theory of law under >which AOL owes a duty of performance to the spammer company. Spammer company inserts free AOL trial disk in drive and follows instructions? Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 19:18:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA15270 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA15263 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 19:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA09394 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:12:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 21:12:03 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak To: LIST-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Jorge orders AOL to allow spammers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It is not clear to some of us: did AOL give good notice ahead of time, so-so notice, or no notice at all to its customers that filtering would be done? From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 20:14:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA16620 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA16613 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 96 23:03:09 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9609072303.aa13214@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas: >Personally I think the first step in fighting spam in the legal arena is >a law that clarifies that telemarketing laws apply to spamming and the >Internet as well. Now I've heard (OK, read) it all. "a law" What country, pray tell, would said law be passed in? Enforced in? It's survival of the fittest. AOL is not beholden to accept mail from anyone. AOL owns the system. AOL owns the network connection. Funny how AOL's users aren't suing to get their daily dose of spam. Sorry, Eric, your "logic" just doesn't cut it. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 20:59:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA19752 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA19691 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 20:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id DAA22063; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:54:15 GMT Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:54:14 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom13 To: Eric Thomas cc: Stan Ryckman , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... In-Reply-To: <199609071659.JAA14504@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 7 Sep 1996, Eric Thomas wrote: > and all mail coming from them. What you would say if MSN did not accept > e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you > still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? MSN, or AOL is under no obligation to accept any, or all e-mail sent to them. Nor are they required to transfer mail to other sites that traverses their domain, or originates from them. << Read their contract very carefully. >> AOL is not the first online service to reject all mail coming from a specific site. << That proobably first happened back in 1979, or 1980 -- whenever Tom Jennings declared himself to be the NetGod. >> xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com A missle is fired, and TWA Flight 800 crashes. How much will the US Navy pay in compensation for the deaths they caused? From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 22:44:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA22325 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA22307 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (alancz@hou-tx10-10.ix.netcom.com [204.32.167.138]) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA15654 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:35:03 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:35:03 -0700 Message-Id: <199609080535.WAA15654@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: Re: AOL forced to accept spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> AOL is taking this course in pursuit of filthy lucre - period! > >Well, one person's "filthy lucre" is another's "sound business >judgment". Presumably AOL is taking this step for a variety of business >reasons, ranging from the capacity issues you mention, to good public >relations, to wanting to protect the *other* commercial solicitations >that it exposes its members to (and charges advertisers for). -------- In the letter to AOL subscribers, Steve Case said that one of the most frequent complaints received by AOL from its customers has been about getting this unwanted junk email.......... It is pretty easy to get large chunks of the AOL subscriber list, (just search for keywords) and some folks must have been pretty busy collecting addresses using this method......... Maybe AOL will have to change to an unlisted address policy...... Alan Cz From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:15:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24529 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24514 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA09596; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:25 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0b11.32.19960901204844.006abf80@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:31:32 -0400 To: Jody Boyd , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Help with Forgeries Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:49 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Jody Boyd wrote: >We're getting attacked by someone that is forging their e-mail name to be >those that are valid for the list. We're pretty sure we know who it is and I >have tweaked SendMail to not allow messages from his domain. HOWEVER, this >is based on a FROM: filter. > >I know it's been asked many times before, but if anyone has suggestions on >how to block e-mail based on the domain listed in the MSGID or path or with >sendmail, please let me know. I know of no tools that let you refuse connections based on parts of the "body" of the message (including most of what you and I consider to be the headers) while the SMTP connection is open. In the case of sendmail, it doesn't even begin to examine the headers of the message until after it has accepted it from the other end, so you couldn't "refuse" the message even if you wanted to. You could try to use something like procmail (or whatever) to /dev/null or bounce messages with certain header information, but that's a different issue. I've argued with Ned Freed (author or co-author of 14 Internet email RFCs, and someone you could consider to have literally written the book on the subject) that tools of this sort are necessary, but I haven't convinced him. I have convinced some of his co-workers at Innosoft (makers of PMDF, the software the White House uses to process their Internet email) that the tools that PMDF has already are virtually useless, and there's not really much sense in trying to use them to block incoming email. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:18:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24531 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24519 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA09465; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:20 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609020254.WAA22822@sunspot.tiac.net> References: <199609020053.RAA11660@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Sep 1, 96 05:53:50 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:26:39 -0400 To: Stan Ryckman , marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Sendmail Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:54 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Stan Ryckman wrote: >Check out procmail. Even if sendmail delivers your mail, you >can have it forwarded through procmail, which will give you >incredible numbers of options. I use it to do very complicated >mail sorting here. That doesn't refuse the message -- sendmail still accepts it, and then it's up to you to either /dev/null it or try to bounce it. What you really want to do is completely refuse delivery. >If you're a system administrator, then you could consider running >procmail *instead* of sendmail; it can do that as well. Uh, no. Speaking as someone who has installed procmail before, it has no concept of the SMTP protocol. It is not capable of being run as a replacement for sendmail. It *can* be installed as a replacement for the local mailer (usually /bin/mail, or mail.local, or somesuch), per the instructions found in the procmail distribution. However, the problem remains of refusing to accept mail from certain domains. I'm working on adding to the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ stuff based on what I did to refuse mail for cyberpromo.com, servint.com, and answerme.com for AOL. Although we have since been ordered to remove those blocks, they were at least minimally effective for a short period of time (if you understand what's being blocked, it's virtually trivial for the folks on the other end to make changes to bypass the blocks you're putting in). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:29:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24634 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24558 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA10312; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:52 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9609070118.AA14476@merckx.graphics.cornell.edu> References: Your message of "Sat, 07 Sep 1996 02:54:52 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:51:47 -0400 To: Mitch Collinsworth , Eric Thomas From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:18 PM -0400 9/6/1996, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >Hmm... Eric, I think you missed my point. I didn't mean spam being sent >to lists. I meant good old every day list traffic. You suggested AOL >adopt a policy of blocking any message sent to more than 500 AOL users, >regardless of sender or content. We had already considered this issue in our efforts. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:36:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24589 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24540 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA10180; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:47 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609071942.MAA21539@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:43:15 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:49:55 -0400 To: Eric Thomas , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:17 PM -0400 9/7/1996, Eric Thomas wrote: >Personally I think the first step in fighting spam in the legal arena is >a law that clarifies that telemarketing laws apply to spamming and the >Internet as well. All I ask is that the law preventing junk faxes be extended to junk email as well -- in both cases, the recipient is bearing the bulk of the costs of the transmission, and therefore their right to have a publicly known "address" that can not be abused (without legal repercussions) should not be abrogated. You will note that the law specifically prohibiting junk faxes was written to prevent the unsavory activities of a certain Sanford Wallace.... -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:38:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24623 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24556 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA10451; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:57 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960907224657.002c22d0@cantec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:54:02 -0400 To: Dave Bigham , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:46 PM -0400 9/7/1996, Dave Bigham wrote: >All kinds of "rights" are being discussed in this thread. None of them >apply really. The entire situation arose because AOL wants to reduce costs. >It costs connectivity resources (bigger data pipes) to handle all the >spammers' mail. It costs personnel resources (more customer service reps) to >handle the complaints. It costs revenue resources (lost customers) because >of the aggravation. Millions of $$$ worth of costs that the junkmailers should be required by law to support out of their own pocket, or not be allowed to conduct business (throw their carcasses in jail). We get hit first, simply because we're biggest. But everyone ultimately suffers, because ultimately everybody will be "big enough" to be noticed and junkmailed into oblivion. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:41:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24960 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24943 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA17564; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:18:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609080535.WAA15654@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:17:57 -0400 To: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL forced to accept spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:35 AM -0400 9/8/1996, Alan Czarnek wrote: >In the letter to AOL subscribers, Steve Case said that one of the most >frequent complaints received by AOL from its customers has been about >getting this unwanted junk email.......... Yup. It's the #1 complaint, and so far as I know, the #1 reason why subscribers leave. >It is pretty easy to get large chunks of the AOL subscriber list, (just >search for keywords) and some folks must have been pretty busy >collecting addresses using this method......... Maybe AOL will have to >change to an unlisted address policy...... We've identified several ways to get large numbers of AOL usernames. Some of them require people to be paid to subscribe to AOL and directly violate our Terms of Service, which I'd like to see get taken up as a breach of contract issue and maybe even criminal charges filed. However, there are some others as well. None of them is complete in and of itself. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:44:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24584 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24532 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA09714; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:13:30 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19960902162048.00824684@mail.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:35:50 -0400 To: Kynn Bartlett From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:20 PM -0400 9/2/1996, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >Brad, apart from the fact that it would have been polite if he'd >mailed owner- first, why's it necessarily junk mail? It's >a little rude, but from the message (which I quoted below), it seems >like it would be semi-on-topic for your lists. It is not on-topic for my list. He has no Palladium or Palladium-FRPG related PBeM lists, and has clearly demonstrated that he has negative interest in being a contributing member to the community we've built. He sees all the RPG lists in the world as his private list of addresses he can advertise through, without cost to him (we've done all the hard work). He is a leech, and must be treated as such. I have since gotten confirmation from the administrator(s) of his site that they now understand why I feel so strongly on this subject, and agree with me. Of course, they could just be saying whatever it takes to get me off their back, but that is what they said. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 7 23:47:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA24654 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA24621 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 1996 23:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.177.25.174] (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id CAA11277; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:14:28 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609050456.XAA03060@bonkers.taronga.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 02:01:37 -0400 To: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Illegitimate information posting! beware! Abuse may follow! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:56 AM -0400 9/5/1996, Stephanie da Silva wrote: >A number of people seem to be forgetting that abuse was done during the >information gathering. I seem to recall various site admin-types getting >distressed because large loads were being put on their listservers from >multiple "who" commands done on lists with large numbers of subscribers. IMO, the worst abuse was that they were obviously using the information available from PAML to collect the email addresses, which I believe is a clear violation of PAML use guidelines. Yes, they overloaded mail systems (which could have been prevented by better programming of the queries). Yes, they were collecting data with an intention to use it. Yes, they claim that they'd protect that data and not sell it. But frankly, I don't believe that they would actually "do the right thing" with the data once they got it. Anyway, I doubt they'll be stupid enough to make *that* mistake again. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 07:29:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA15340 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA15331 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609081419.HAA15331@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5654; Sun, 08 Sep 96 16:16:04 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 5546; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:16:04 +0200 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:06:09 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 7 Sep 96 23:03:09 EDT from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 7 Sep 96 23:03:09 EDT Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer said: >Now I've heard (OK, read) it all. "a law" > >What country, pray tell, would said law be passed in? Enforced in? All the countries that I've lived in have laws governing telemarketing. These laws are similar, although the details vary. They're here to make sure scam salesmen can't harrass people who ask them to stop calling. I don't see any reason why these laws couldn't be amended to clarify that telemarketing through the Internet is still telemarketing. Or maybe a new law isn't even needed, just a case. Incidentally, so far 100% of the spam joints have been in the US. To tell you the truth, telemarketing is virtually absent in most other countries. There ARE companies that do it, but now that you mention it, I haven't been telemarketed a single time in my life while in Europe. When I'm visiting our US office, someone calls me at the office every other week to try and sell me some sort of newsletter that would help me manage my stock or mortgage or whatever. I have no idea where these people get my name from. I don't live in the US, I'm not subscribed to any US publication, unless the government is selling my name to people it's got to be my bank, since when the scam reps call they ask to talk to Eric Thomas. So I guess my bank is selling my name to idiots who want to help me with the mortgage I don't have, and who want to make sure that I understand that keeping my money with the bank is not a good investment and I should give it to them for higher returns. Ah well. Anyway, a US law would help nailing the current spam joints and sending a message to people who may be thinking of doing the same in other countries. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 10:14:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22999 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thyme (thyme.finesse.com [140.174.171.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA22992 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by thyme (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA00898; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:06:51 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:06:51 -0700 From: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Message-Id: <199609081706.KAA00898@thyme> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Blocking Domains X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Everyone here is talking about using sendmail to refuse to accept email from specific domains. I'd like to understand the situation a little better. First, sendmail doesn't read the header until after it receives the message and this is something that requires a change of the SMTP protocol to change. It isn't something that some email product, sendmail or whatever can change. Correct? Secondly, people are looking to block an entire system or domain. Correct? Can anyone see a reason to not use firewall techniques to refuse a connection to port 25 from specific systems or domains? By refusing connection to a known email transit point, email can be denied without ever receiving it to examine it. This of course does nothing to the good domain with one bad user. I use a piece of software called TCPD which refuses connection to any host in a hosts.deny file for services. Mary Morris From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 10:29:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23403 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA23396 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09165 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:18:35 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960908173209.00803d40@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 10:32:09 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: How To Get Anti-Email-Spamming Laws Enacted Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was just thinking about when we'll actually have some laws against unsolicited email spamming, in the same way that there are laws against unsolicited fax spamming. ("Spamming" used loosely here, in several senses.) It won't happen until the congressional email addresses get so clogged with mass-mailings that they're unable to use their email effectively. I'm still undecided on how unethical it would be to try to get my Senator's address on spammers' lists. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 10:32:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23350 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA23336 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09141 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:15:59 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960908172933.008041ac@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 10:29:33 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Help with Forgeries Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:31 AM 9/8/96 -0400, Brad Knowles wrote: > I've argued with Ned Freed (author or co-author of 14 Internet >email RFCs, and someone you could consider to have literally written >the book on the subject) that tools of this sort are necessary, but I >haven't convinced him. I have convinced some of his co-workers at >Innosoft (makers of PMDF, the software the White House uses to >process their Internet email) that the tools that PMDF has already >are virtually useless, and there's not really much sense in trying to >use them to block incoming email. You mean the White House doesn't -really- have filters to check for "I'm going to kill you!" email sent to president@whitehouse.gov? :) -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 10:35:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA23349 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA23331 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09138 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:15:59 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960908172932.008062f8@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 10:29:32 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: raphael@harborside.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:35 AM 9/8/96 -0400, Brad Knowles wrote: > It is not on-topic for my list. He has no Palladium or >Palladium-FRPG related PBeM lists, and has clearly demonstrated that >he has negative interest in being a contributing member to the >community we've built. He sees all the RPG lists in the world as his >private list of addresses he can advertise through, without cost to >him (we've done all the hard work). He is a leech, and must be >treated as such. Okay, your position makes more sense to me now. (I feel second-rate, though! He didn't spam -my- RPG list! *grin*) > I have since gotten confirmation from the administrator(s) of his >site that they now understand why I feel so strongly on this subject, >and agree with me. Of course, they could just be saying whatever it >takes to get me off their back, but that is what they said. Yeah, sometimes I wonder if people are just telling me things to shut me up when I start yelling. I've had to start yelling on at least a few occasions lately in my role as HWG mailing list manager. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 11:29:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27825 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA27805 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07663; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA20019; Sun, 8 Sep 96 14:27:18 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609081827.AA20019@smoe.org> Subject: Re: Blocking Domains To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609081706.KAA00898@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Sep 8, 96 10:06:51 am Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mary Morris writes: > Can anyone see a reason to not use firewall techniques to refuse > a connection to port 25 from specific systems or domains? By refusing > connection to a known email transit point, email can be denied > without ever receiving it to examine it. This of course does nothing > to the good domain with one bad user. I use a piece of software > called TCPD which refuses connection to any host in a hosts.deny > file for services. The problem here is that the spam source can simply direct the mail via an innocent third-party system, which will (most-likely) accept it and then forward it to you. The TCP connection will then be from a different host than the one you are blocking. -jeff From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 11:59:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA00706 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:48:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu (franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA00699 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA26340 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (sheryl@gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA02001 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:48:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA09269; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:48:28 -0400 Message-Id: <9609081848.AA09269@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: Help with Forgeries (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 14:48:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I know of no tools that let you refuse connections based on parts > of the "body" of the message (including most of what you and I > consider to be the headers) while the SMTP connection is open. > > In the case of sendmail, it doesn't even begin to examine the > headers of the message until after it has accepted it from the other > end, so you couldn't "refuse" the message even if you wanted to. You > could try to use something like procmail (or whatever) to /dev/null > or bounce messages with certain header information, but that's a > different issue. > I'm just catching up on a couple of weeks' worth of mailing list email, so first off I want to say that I'm completely with Brad on the issue of making the laws about junk email parallel the laws about junk faxes. I'm not just speaking as a user or as an admin frustrated with the really obnoxious abuses like the KrazyKevin incidents. But it's really annoying even the amount of time our mail system spends dealing with trying to bounce back junk mailings that were sent to user IDs that haven't been valid in over 2 years. Generally the return addresses these "unknown user" messages are bouncing back to are fake or have full boxes or belong to accounts already closed for spamming. I get copies in the postmaster box, it's just a lot to deal with that doesn't happen with other types of mail. My users don't want to receive them and complain to me about it, the whole thing just consumes a lot of hidden resources that the SPAMer doesn't have to pay for. My employer does. I hope AOL and annoyed users raise enough of a stink to get the law changed. I'm no lawyer and don't play one on TV but it's my understanding that examining content can put a person on shaky ground legally -- that by taking over some responsibility for what content gets through you are setting yourself up to be held liable for anything that gets through that you didn't block. > > I've argued with Ned Freed (author or co-author of 14 Internet > email RFCs, and someone you could consider to have literally written > the book on the subject) that tools of this sort are necessary, but I > haven't convinced him. I have convinced some of his co-workers at > Innosoft (makers of PMDF, the software the White House uses to > process their Internet email) that the tools that PMDF has already > are virtually useless, and there's not really much sense in trying to > use them to block incoming email. Interesting, because PMDF was recommended to me for the KrazyKevin thing. We rejected it because it doesn't run on any of our platforms and we didn't want to get into another flavor of UNIX for one package that might or might not do the job. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 http://www.seas.gwu.edu/staff/sheryl From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 12:59:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03908 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA03889 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:44:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id MAA10786; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:49:51 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199609081949.MAA10786@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:49:49 -0700 (PDT) To: brad@his.com Cc: tcs@earthlink.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: Help with Forgeries In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.2-960610-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Brad Knowles on scroll > At 8:49 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Jody Boyd wrote: > I know of no tools that let you refuse connections based on parts > of the "body" of the message (including most of what you and I > consider to be the headers) while the SMTP connection is open. Ah. Something I've given a bit of thought to lately. We usually will not install Sendmail as the daemon to which the Internet talks. Too much of a security risk. So we usually install TIS' fwtk smap/smapd to receive and pre-process mail from the Internet. I've thought of numerous enhancements to smap that allow one to setup a rules based type of processing of incoming mail. The first one I'd like to implement is to reject mail which doesn't have a valid envelope sender. If the mail can't be bounced back to the sender (for whatever reason) it won't even be considered for delivery. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 13:14:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA04539 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA04532 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id NAA10815; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:00:21 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199609082000.NAA10815@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT) To: jeffw@smoe.org Cc: marym@Finesse.COM, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: Blocking Domains In-Reply-To: <9609081827.AA20019@smoe.org> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.2-960610-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) on scroll <9609081827.AA20019@smoe.org> > The problem here is that the spam source can simply direct the mail via > an innocent third-party system, which will (most-likely) accept it and > then forward it to you. The TCP connection will then be from a > different host than the one you are blocking. Correct. But if this kind of change were to make it into stock sendmail and be widely deployed, spammers would not have the third-party mailer avenue available to them. A "third-party" we be forced into blocking known spammer sites or be deemed a spammer site themselves, and have their mail blockaided by all other sites employing the technique. Not good for business. This kind of thing would certainly cause people like AOL some grief however. Before I go any further I would first like to say that I'm pleased with the response of AOL whenever I complain about a spammer. They are usually quite responsive and fast in terminating accounts. However they also provide a haven for spammers with their "free-trial" diskettes that go out every other week. Sites like AOL would be on a quite a few black lists and mail would be refused because of the amount of spam which comes from them. Netcom would be a candidate for my black list as well. I'm sure if users of AOL and Netcom were changing providers because they couldn't get their mail to where it was supposed to go because of a few bad apples, AOL and Netcom would be forced to take other actions with the prevention of spam. What?? I don't know. :-) Can this work, or will it be a giant denial of service attack waiting to happen?? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 16:14:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA09950 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA09932 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0uzsv5-0009GUC; Sun, 8 Sep 96 16:05 PDT Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Blocking Domains To: marym@Finesse.COM (Mary Morris) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:05:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609081706.KAA00898@thyme> from "Mary Morris" at Sep 8, 96 10:06:51 am Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Can anyone see a reason to not use firewall techniques to refuse >a connection to port 25 from specific systems or domains? By refusing >connection to a known email transit point, email can be denied >without ever receiving it to examine it. This of course does nothing >to the good domain with one bad user. I use a piece of software >called TCPD which refuses connection to any host in a hosts.deny >file for services. > We use tcp_wrappers and run sendmail (actually smail-3.?) behind the wrappers. This does allow blocking e-mail from specific hosts or domains, but probably won't do any good if there are alternate paths via MX records. If the incoming smtp process sees that it can't connect it may go up the MX chain until it finds a site that doesn't block it then that site will forward to our mailer. It would probably work better to use something like deliver or procmail to parse the message header or body for identifiable cruft and reject the messages appropriately. Header checking would be of limited value because it's too easy to forge headers. Parsing the bodies of the messages could probably be done, but it would requre a pretty smart program to figure out what to keep and what to dump. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Government spending? I don't know what it's all about. I don't know any more about this thing than an economist does, and, God knows, he doesn't know much. -- Will Rogers From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 16:29:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA10866 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA10644 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id SAA00750; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:16:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199609082316.SAA00750@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: mcb@postmodern.com Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3232098B.20B1@postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Sep 7, 96 04:49:02 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch responded to someone else: |Since it is the users' contract rights who are (arguably) being |violated, it is up to a user to assert those rights; the spammer company |cannot assert them vicariously. I can't think of a theory of law under |which AOL owes a duty of performance to the spammer company. I think the law agrees with you completely. One of the nice things about the Internet is that it *isn't* the Post Office. And even there, we have rules. If you don't send it via the post (pay the post office by way of stamps or a permit to deliver it), at least in the USA, it is *illegal* to put it in their mailbox. The equivalent here would roughly be that the spammers would have to pay AOL to provide their information to the customers. I believe this is called advertising, and it looks like the spammers don't want to do that. They tried, and I can't blame them too much for that - they are, after all, marketing weasels (not all merketers are weasels, but I think these are) - but they failed, and now they are trying to force their wishes (free junk mail) down everyones' throats. [the someone else said:] |> AOL is taking this course in pursuit of filthy lucre - period! Well, if you don't like "filthy lucre", you are welcome to go live in a cave, and live off nuts, berries, and whatnot. But since you have managed to send email, I'd suspect that you trade some portion of your life for this same "filthy lucre", and that you furthermore destroy the lievs of others by giving them this "filthy lucre" in return for lodging, food, etc. So you must not think much of yourself - by your own words. Perhaps you'd care to rethink, or at least reword, your position. |Well, one person's "filthy lucre" is another's "sound business |judgment". Presumably AOL is taking this step for a variety of business |reasons, ranging from the capacity issues you mention, to good public |relations, to wanting to protect the *other* commercial solicitations |that it exposes its members to (and charges advertisers for). I don't |find any of these to be unacceptable business ethics. I have to agree. If the members don't like it, they can always go somewhere else, somewhere more receptive to spamming - no? Or, if tehy feel wronged, they can take their contract to their lawyer, and consider suing AOL themselves. Frankly, I'd love to be the judge in that case. Assume for a moment that it's not explicitly stated in the contract. Assume for the moment that you convince me that you have a reasonable right to be spammed. Does this mean you get Big Money? No. You would get treble damages. And since the damages are that you didn't get spammed, I would tell AOL to send you *three* copies of every spam that should have been yours. And if it happened to push your disk space over some limit, or run your connect time up, that would be your problem. I might even suggest you pay triple. -Miles -Miles From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 16:44:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA12058 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA12034 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id SAA00832 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:38:11 -0500 Message-Id: <199609082338.SAA00832@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:38:11 -0500 (CDT) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles said... | | All I ask is that the law preventing junk faxes be extended to |junk email as well -- in both cases, the recipient is bearing the |bulk of the costs of the transmission, and therefore their right to |have a publicly known "address" that can not be abused (without legal |repercussions) should not be abrogated. I can deal with that just fine! Personally, I don;t mind the occasional ad that shows up in emailbox - when they show reasonable cause for believing I might be interested. The spams that come in because I am in their target markets (human beings not in the life-challenged category), or even those automated by keyword searches (I have had everything from ecological mail to business opportunities to people wishing to sell me food show up, all because of my bogus business - Roadkills-R-Us [1]) I have no use for. I would love to be able to auto-dial all their phones (on their nickel, from Thule) for each person their email went to. And that's when I'm feeling especially nice. Other times I favor public stocks, public lashings, and a number of other things we have foolishly gotten far too "civilized" to continue. -Miles [1] My favorite was from a Congresscritter who knew I was politically aware because of all the "great politicians" I referenced on my web site. They failed to not, of course, that in every case, I was either poking fun at the pol referenced, or demanding accountability. From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 17:29:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA12739 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fang.dsto.defence.gov.au (fang.dsto.defence.gov.au [131.185.2.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA12732 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 17:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au by fang.dsto.defence.gov.au; (8.6.12/1.1.8.2/13May95-0346PM) id JAA31110; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:38:01 +0930 Received: by msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au with Microsoft Mail id <32345604@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au>; Mon, 09 Sep 96 09:38:12 CST From: "Gabb, Andrew" To: Eric Thomas , list-managers Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 09:37:00 CST Message-ID: <32345604@msmail.dsto.defence.gov.au> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Eric Thomas >Incidentally, so far 100% of the spam joints have been in the US. To tell >you the truth, telemarketing is virtually absent in most other countries. >There ARE companies that do it, but now that you mention it, I haven't >been telemarketed a single time in my life while in Europe. When I'm Well, I can certainly say that telemarketing is alive and festering in Australia, both for home and small business. I'd also suggest that it is common in most parts of the world, but this is _me_ guessing now. In terms of the internet, I have had spam from many countries, including Australia. But from where I sit, the US is the most prolific, as you indicate. Andrew ==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+==+== Andrew Gabb Andrew.Gabb@dsto.defence.gov.au Information Technology Division Defence Science and Technology Organisation Ph +61 8 8259 5505 Fax +61 8 8259 5980 171 Labs ITD/DSTO, P.O. Box 1500, Salisbury SA 5108, Australia From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 8 18:44:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA14270 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA14263 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 18:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id VAA25586; Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:41:16 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609090141.VAA25586@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Sendmail To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Sep 8, 96 01:26:39 am Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > > At 10:54 PM -0400 9/1/1996, Stan Ryckman wrote: > > >Check out procmail. Even if sendmail delivers your mail, you > >can have it forwarded through procmail, which will give you > >incredible numbers of options. I use it to do very complicated > >mail sorting here. > > That doesn't refuse the message -- sendmail still accepts it, and > then it's up to you to either /dev/null it or try to bounce it. What > you really want to do is completely refuse delivery. It "refuses it" from the end user's viewpoint, which is what I think the original poster was requesting. It goes through the delivery process (including possible explosion), thus eating system resources (but not the end user's allocation of same, and not the end user's time), but the original poster said "gracefully refuse" which led me to believe that's what she wanted. On the other hand, I (probably ill-advisedly) added: > >If you're a system administrator, then you could consider running > >procmail *instead* of sendmail; it can do that as well. > > Uh, no. Speaking as someone who has installed procmail before, > it has no concept of the SMTP protocol. It is not capable of being > run as a replacement for sendmail. It *can* be installed as a > replacement for the local mailer (usually /bin/mail, or mail.local, > or somesuch), per the instructions found in the procmail distribution. How long ago? I probably wasn't very clear; I meant as a MDA, not as a MTA. You don't have to use sendmail as the MDA. The man page says: If running suid root or with root privileges, procmail will be able to perform as a functionally enhanced, backwards compatible mail delivery agent. You can then use procmail to globally not deliver an arbitrary match to any user's mailbox. [...] > (if you understand what's being > blocked, it's virtually trivial for the folks on the other end to > make changes to bypass the blocks you're putting in). Yup. You then might have to be vague about "what's being blocked" to avoid giving away the show. LISTSERVs are doing this now to block spam, and the documentation states that they won't reveal the algorithms because it will just show up in the next "How To Spam The Internet" type of book (not a direct quote). It's probably always best to give end users a chance to "accept everything" anyway -- protects against a defective blocking algorithm for users for whom losing something might be more costly than wading through spam. That means accepting it via SMTP, looking at the headers and/or body, and only then deciding how to distribute it (or not). (Yes, I'm aware of implications regarding searching the body -- I'm thinking of identifying characteristics such as addresses, phone numbers, etc. which would serve as identifiers of known problem mailers, not as content filters.) Cheers, Stan. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 02:29:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA08068 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccpntc1.in2p3.fr (ccpntc1.in2p3.fr [134.158.69.171]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id CAA08044 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tifra@localhost) by ccpntc1.in2p3.fr (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA01986 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:18:18 +0200 (METDST) Message-Id: <199609090918.LAA01986@ccpntc1.in2p3.fr> X-Authentication-Warning: ccpntc1.in2p3.fr: Host tifra@localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 11:18:16 +0200 From: Tifra Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 07:59:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA01577 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA01541 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609091450.IAA13818@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id IAA13818; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 08:50:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 8:50:10 MDT Cc: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609071659.JAA14504@miles.greatcircle.com>; from "Eric Thomas" at Sep 7, 96 6:52 pm From: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What you would say if MSN did not accept > e-mail from companies selling products that compete with MS's? Would you > still say they never agreed to accept this mail in the first place? Yes, I would. Nobody should be forced to accept *anything* and they should be free to use whatever criteria they like to decide what to accept and what not to. If MSN did adopt a policy like this, then MSN users who did not like the policy would be well advised to find a different service provider. If they were rejecting mail on the sly without telling their users about that policy, that would be a different matter. --Greg From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 10:44:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA20458 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA20415 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04238; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:34:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:34:50 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9609072303.aa13214@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer In criticizing the idea of law for regulating junk mail, (and is there a line we all agree on? for advertizing neat stuff like memory and new on-line services?) you said it is survival of the fittest. And AOL owns all the lines, I believe. I don't see reason for the strongest economically to make the decisions of, or for everyone. Does AT&T own a little?, are a few of its lines involved here also? From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 11:29:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA25974 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA25896 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA25179; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 11:14:48 -0700 Received: from [198.211.96.100] by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA02128; Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:16:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 11:16:22 -0700 Message-Id: <9609091816.AA02128@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Could we please spell 'judge' correctly? Thanks. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk you illitrit netdrones, you From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 16:29:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA02761 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rasputin.net1plus.com (NS1.NET1PLUS.COM [207.77.56.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA02712 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 16:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from paranoid ([206.119.237.9]) by rasputin.net1plus.com (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-12238) with SMTP id AAA92 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:14:21 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960909232157.0032c620@net1plus.com> X-Sender: joet@net1plus.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 19:21:57 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Joe Tomkowitz" Subject: xxx Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 17:29:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA06838 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calfac.org (calfac.org [206.16.94.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA06800 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cf20.calfac.org (cf20.calfac.org [206.16.94.20]) by calfac.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA22852 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:37:44 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:37:44 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960909174901.74f7277c@calfac.org> X-Sender: juliem@calfac.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Julie Malley Subject: Subject Titles Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When someone sends a message to our mailing list, it is first sent to the owner for approval, and, if approved, is forwarded to the entire list. When the message is forwarded, it arrives to the list members without a Subject -- that section is left blank, even when the owner places a Subject in the header before mailing it. Could someone advise me what we can do to the message before forwarding it to the entire list so it will arrive with a Subject in the Header? thank you. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 17:59:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA08726 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA08665 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA18080; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:38:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609100038.TAA18080@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: juliem@calfac.org Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject Titles In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:37:44 -0700" References: <2.2.16.19960909174901.74f7277c@calfac.org> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 19:38:55 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "JM" == Julie Malley writes: JM> Could someone advise me what we can do to the message before forwarding JM> it to the entire list so it will arrive with a Subject in the Header? The answer depends heavily on just which list management software you're using. Without knowing that, your question is basically impossible to answer. You should probably ask the mailing list that exists for users of the software you're running. For example, Majordomo users should ask Majordomo-specific questions of majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. List-managers is specifically for software-independent list management issues. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 18:59:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA17971 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psycho.ico.net (psycho.ico.net [207.111.192.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA17951 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.94.135.202] (host-1.fogcity.com [204.94.135.202]) by psycho.ico.net (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id SAA03328; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:49:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199609100149.SAA03328@psycho.ico.net> Subject: Re: Subject Titles Date: Mon, 9 Sep 96 18:49:59 -0700 x-sender: fcity001@mail.ico.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Will Mayall To: "Julie Malley" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >When someone sends a message to our mailing list, it is first sent to the >owner for approval, and, if approved, is forwarded to the entire list. When >the message is forwarded, it arrives to the list members without a Subject >-- that section is left blank, even when the owner places a Subject in the >header before mailing it. I've recently heard of a very similar problem with a specific mail server: smap (V2.0alpha) I believe the mail server was failing to insert a Carraige Return/Line Feed pair in the header. You might want to check if the the mail server is running this software. Will __________________________________________________________________________ Will Mayall http://www.fogcity.com President, Fog City Software From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 19:44:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA22892 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA22727 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 19:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id SAA29302; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:45:25 -0700 Received: from uucp5.netcom.com(163.179.3.5) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma029274; Mon Sep 9 18:45:08 1996 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA05908; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 18:35:14 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0v0H5N-000gd0C; Mon, 9 Sep 96 17:53 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Terms of Service To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 17:53:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In response to recent UCE appearing on mailing lists, I've written a terms of service document that applies to all my mailing lists. I am copying it here, FYI. If you'd like to base a terms of service for your lists on the one I've written, please feel free. TERMS OF SERVICE FOR SAGARMATHA MAILING LISTS Advertising, and unsolicited advertising in particular, have recently become much more common on the Internet. Mailing lists are among the many targets of advertising. I have endeavored to keep this mailing list free of advertising, and to date have done a reasonable job. Among the protections are making the lists available only to subscribers from their subscribed addresses, and watching subscription requests to screen out email spammers. As this may not be enough in the future, I've decided to write the following terms of service for all mailing lists maintained here. Your reading these terms of service, and remaining subscribed to the lists shall be considered your consent to abide by these terms of service. (1) Commercial Advertising is explicitly forbidden on mailing lists distributed from this site. The only exceptions are: (a) Commercial advertising in Follow, Follow that has been approved by Mark Dingwall, the editor. (b) Commercial advertising that is explicitly approved, in writing, by James C. Armstrong, Jr, the site administrator at sagarmatha. Commercial advertising is defined as advertising on direct behalf of a business or businesses. It is also third party advertising, multi-level marketing, and other get rich quick schemes. Personal advertising for spare tickets to athletic events, etc, is not forbidden by this rule. If you violate this rule, you will be billed a $50 fee plus $5 per address on the mailing list. You will also be unsubscribed and placed on a permanent blacklist for mailing lists at this site. Fail to pay and you will be sued in California Court. The laws of the State of California will be applied. If you have any questions concerning these terms of service, please feel free to drop me a line at james@sagarmatha.com. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | It's time to taste what you most fear james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Right Guard will not help you here. | Brace yourself, my dear! | It's a holiday in Cambodia! From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 20:30:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA00291 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA00185 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 20:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9AJ8L4SCC9ULM12@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:13 EDT Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:13 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, remailer-operators@c2.org Message-id: <01I9AJ8L4SCC9ULM12@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com",IN%"remailer-operators@c2.org" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM" "Eric Thomas" 7-SEP-1996 15:46:33.44 >Personally I think the first step in fighting spam in the legal arena is >a law that clarifies that telemarketing laws apply to spamming and the >Internet as well. People who call you on the phone to offer you the >latest financial scam are required to state their name and the name of >the company they work for. If they lie to you, they're in trouble. >Similarly, spammers should be required to identify themselves and not >forge mail headers to sell their wares anonymously. I'm not a lawyer, but >this looks like a no-brainer to me. Why should anonymous solicitation be >allowed just because it's done electronically? Once spammers are writing First, there are some free-speech problems with this. Just because someone's writing you about something commercial, and hasn't done business with you before, doesn't mean that they aren't protected by the First Amendment. I suspect that the laws in question haven't ever gotten to the Supreme Court (or, if they have, the Court has made the mistake of thinking that "speech" doesn't include commercial speech.) Second, _as long as you have a means of no longer receiving such mail_, why is it necessary for someone to tell you who they are, including for commercial speech? All legitimate remailer services will A: block you (or a list that you own) on your request and B: try to detect and ward off spam in any event. (Once various patents expire, the direct method - charging - will take care of the problem via fully anonymous digital cash.) And Port 25-ing has a use in protecting remailer services against groups such as the Church of Scientology. -Allen From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 9 21:14:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA06781 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slug.swcp.com (slug.swcp.com [198.59.115.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA06732 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA11219 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:04:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199609100404.WAA11219@slug.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:04:11 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In criticizing the idea of law for regulating junk mail, > (and is there a line we all agree on? for advertizing neat stuff > like memory and new on-line services?) As far as I'm concerned, the "line" is unsolicited bulk email. > you said it is survival of the fittest. And AOL owns all the lines, I > believe. > > I don't see reason for the strongest economically to make the > decisions of, or for everyone. AOL is only making the decisions for AOL, and AOL is hardly the only game in town for email connectivity. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 10 05:39:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA09071 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.interramp.com (smtp2.interramp.com [38.8.200.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA09030 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pp001427.interramp.com by smtp2.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id IAA17538; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:06:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 07:50:37 PDT From: Peter Boulay Subject: Any advice? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been following this group for several months, and would like to pose a question to all of you. I am a legitimate list-manager and am fully aware of the restrictions on unsolicited e-mail, and the reasons for them. I fully respect these restrictions and comply with them completely. My list consists of individuals who have agreed to become occasional survey respondents. I have about 1,300 such individuals now on the list, and need several thousand more. When I have a survey to take, I e-mail my list and ask them to navigate to our home page (http://www.netinsights.com), and use their password to access the survey. Their answers are placed in a database, and I match these answers to the password, and thereby get the demographics (age, gender, income, education, etc.) of the survey respondents. None of my "members" is ever required to take a survey, and we e-mail them only one time to tell them about a particular survey. This is a for-profit venture called Netinsights--though we haven't made any money at all yet.We're still testing the concept. If you look at some of the results on our page so far, you will perhaps be impressed that this is a legitimate, statistically valid operation and that we never make claims that are not substantiated by the statistics. Besides operating eventually as a profitable enterprise, we also hope to remain in public service--taking opinion polls on subjects of interest. We also encourage our panelists to submit survey questions and we recently ran a number of them in our first "Burning Questions" survey. (OK, who could have predicted that Eric Clapton was considered a better guitarist than Jimi Hendrix by 67 percent of the respondents?) Here's my question, broken into several parts: Are there any ways we can do mass mailings to your lists without violating your rules? Are there any ways a legitimate enterprise can recruit members or make itself known through your lists? If we first ask you as list-managers to approve a mass mailing to your list, would you consider doing so? Obviously, an enterprise like ours needs the broadest possible membership--we would like all the members of a horticulture list as well as all the members of an astronomy list to consider joining. I'd like to hear from all of you. Thanks very much. From: Peter C. Boulay, Netinsights, Inc. pp001427@interramp.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 10 07:29:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA20390 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA20370 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20282 invoked by uid 3995); 10 Sep 1996 14:17:14 -0000 Date: 10 Sep 1996 14:17:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19960910141714.20281.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> From: Dave Sill To: Peter Boulay Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any advice? In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM Version 5.96 (beta) with XEmacs 19.14 [Lucid] (mips-sgi-irix6.2) of Wed Jun 26 1996 on pomerol Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M >(OK, who could have >predicted that Eric Clapton was considered a better guitarist than Jimi >Hendrix by 67 percent of the respondents?) I suspect 67% of your respondents said "Jimi who?". The 33% were those who have heard both. :-) >Are there any ways we can do mass mailings to your lists without violating >your rules? Sure, get permission from the list owner first. >Are there any ways a legitimate enterprise can recruit members or make itself >known through your lists? Yes, with the listowner's permission. Also, a short "signature" plug in an otherwise appropriate message. >If we first ask you as list-managers to approve a mass mailing to your list, >would you consider doing so? Sure, I'll *consider* anything. Would you be willing to pay for the privilege? I'd have a hard time justifying the nuisance to my subscribers if they weren't getting something in return, such as partial subsidization of the costs of running the list. >Obviously, an enterprise like ours needs the broadest possible membership--we >would like all the members of a horticulture list as well as all the members >of an astronomy list to consider joining. Why target list subscribers? Sounds like you need a general marketing plan targeting Internet users. -Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 10 07:59:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA24890 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA24830 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA16026 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:54:35 -0600 Message-Id: <199609101454.IAA16026@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Any advice? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:54:33 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Are there any ways we can do mass mailings to your lists without violating > your rules? No. These postings would be a clear violation of the list charters. > Are there any ways a legitimate enterprise can recruit members or make > itself known through your lists? Not unless the "enterprise" has something to do with the topic(s) of the list(s). > If we first ask you as list-managers to approve a mass mailing to your list, > would you consider doing so? No. My lists are for discussion of specific chartered topics, not for membership trolls for other unrelated lists. If you have a mailing list that's related to the topics of my lists somehow, you'd be welcome to use my lists to let people know about it. This doesn't sound like it qualifies. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 10 21:06:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA08171 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA08159 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 20:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id XAA26825; Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:31:34 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609110331.XAA26825@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: EALLENSMITH@mbcl.rutgers.edu (E. Allen Smith) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Cc: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com, remailer-operators@c2.org In-Reply-To: <01I9AJ8L4SCC9ULM12@mbcl.rutgers.edu> from "E. Allen Smith" at Sep 9, 96 11:13:00 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk E. Allen Smith wrote: [snip] > First, there are some free-speech problems with this. Just because > someone's writing you about something commercial, and hasn't done business > with you before, doesn't mean that they aren't protected by the First > Amendment. Please read the First Amendment, and then tell me how it gives you the right to advertise to me in a manner that costs me money. Be specific. Then, just to make life interesting, please explain how you intend to apply First Amendment issues to non-US posters/receivers. A fair amount of the internet (and probably a fair amount of this list) is located outside the US. Cheers, Stan. (unrelated PS - I sent a few posts to this list which bounced; my ISP thinks UUnet was the cause of the problems; so if you got a copy of a response which didn't show up here, feel free to respond to it but quote fully, since nobody else got it. A test seems to show that this will now will go through ) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 11 05:59:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA16963 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA16944 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 05:44:46 -0700 (PDT) From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA04912 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0400 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0400 Message-ID: <960911084443_305846688@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any advice? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Peter Boulay > Are there any ways a legitimate enterprise can recruit members or make > itself known through your lists? A small nit to pick -- I received an inquiry from someone at Netinsights. She didn't want to send a message "through" my lists -- she wanted me to *send her* my lists. Totally different thing -- at least if a message went through my list that I'd approved, it would be a one time thing. Giving the list away means it could happen over and over. If I wanted my subscribers to get junk mail, I'd just hand the list over to Cyberpromo.... > If we first ask you as list-managers to approve a mass mailing to your list, > would you consider doing so? All mine are moderated, but this would be outside the topics, so I'd guess no. If you're sending it to an unmoderated list, however, it will certainly be considered spam unless you ask the list owner first. Perhaps you could consider asking list owners with related web pages to link to yours? That I might consider, since it'd be totally optional on the subscriber's part. Contacting various webmasters unrelated to list management might be a good idea as well. > From: Dave Sill >>Obviously, an enterprise like ours needs the broadest possible membership-- >>we would like all the members of a horticulture list as well as all the >> members of an astronomy list to consider joining. > Why target list subscribers? Sounds like you need a general marketing > plan targeting Internet users. Yes, exactly. Though certainly pre-assembled lists are a convenient target -- they always are. :-/ Cheers, Deb From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 11 09:15:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA04641 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.access.digex.net (mail3.access.digex.net [205.197.247.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA04574 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 09:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jjflash.digex.net (dyn000267.gblt.digex.net [164.109.217.13]) by mail3.access.digex.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA12888; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0b15.32.19691231190000.00684cc0@access.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b15 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:07:46 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Need List Host Recommendations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been hosting a couple of lists on POBOX for awhile now but have found them to be unresponsive, especially in a crisis that developed over the last few days that has all but destroyed a new and very heavily subscribed list. Therefore, I am seeking recommendations for list host providers to which I can move my lists without going broke ;-) I'd prefer finding one that charges a flat rate. Majordomo is what I've been using, but I think I might like to try Listserv (either one is fine right now though). I'd really appreciate any recommendations anyone can send me ASAP as I am in a "meltdown" situation with one of my lists. Thanks, Jack Schnapper jjflash@digex.net jjflash@kajor.com From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 11 13:16:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA01053 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA01012 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9CWLJLO0O9ULNWE@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:57 EDT Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:57 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, remailer-operators@c2.org Message-id: <01I9CWLJLO0O9ULNWE@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"stanr@sunspot.tiac.net" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com",IN%"remailer-operators@c2.org" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"stanr@sunspot.tiac.net" "Stan Ryckman" 10-SEP-1996 23:26:54.06 >Please read the First Amendment, and then tell me how it gives you >the right to advertise to me in a manner that costs me money. Be >specific. I'm not claiming that the First Amendment, or free speech/press rights in general, means that you have to accept or read anything. (I support AOL in its decision, for instance, so long as their contract with the users allows such an action.) What I was saying is that it isn't your, or the government's, or anyone else's business to insist on having (in Vinge's phrase) the "True Name" of the commercial entity corresponding with anyone. If you don't want to do business with anyone unless you have full ID information, go right ahead. If you don't want yourself (or a list you maintain) to receive anonymous email, any legitimate anonymous remailer service will block you at your request. >Then, just to make life interesting, please explain how you intend >to apply First Amendment issues to non-US posters/receivers. >A fair amount of the internet (and probably a fair amount of this >list) is located outside the US. First, the person proposing the law in question was proposing it in analogy to US laws on telemarketing (which I'd also call unconstitutional). This usage implied that the person wanted to see such a law in the US. (I apologize if my memory is incorrect on this point, but my other two points are still valid.) Second, given the international nature of the net that you point out, laws not including all countries with reasonable internet access will simply lead to "regulatory arbitrage" and the movement of spammers who wish to be anonymous to countries such as the US with free speech protection (unlike, say, China, Singapore, Germany, and England). Third, I do not regard "national sovereignty" as a good when it conflicts with individual liberties. Societies such as the ones I mention above have a problem - they are doing something that is wrongful when they restrict free speech, including commercial speech. Therefore, I would support those violating such limits, just as I did (and am doing) in the German censorship cases. -Allen From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 05:29:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA06536 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA06518 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 05:25:49 -0700 (PDT) From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA10357 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:25:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:25:47 -0400 Message-ID: <960912082546_100128348@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL's junk mail problem Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-09-12 04:18:51 EDT, E. Allen Smith If you don't want yourself (or > a list you maintain) to receive anonymous email, any legitimate anonymous > remailer service will block you at your request. Ah, but there's the problem. I've asked to be removed -- repeatedly -- from the lists of the five major companies AOL tried to blocked, and have been ignored. AOL is introducing mail controls, which puts the blocking potential in the hands of the individual, where I think you and I both agree it should be, but -- and isn't there always a "but"? -- they've introduced this feature without granting the user the ability to block entire domains, which of course makes it nearly useless. (To use it, I need to block the sixty or so variations from Cyberpromo, not just one simple "cyberpromo" string.) Once that's implemented, though, this whole issue should become moot -- the individual user can choose to block the mail, and the Big Brother approach won't be necessary. Cheers, Deb From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 09:21:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA23670 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA23551 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609121609.KAA14868@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id KAA14868; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:09:02 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 10:09:00 MDT Cc: stanr@sunspot.tiac.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, remailer-operators@c2.org In-Reply-To: ; from "E. Allen Smith" at Sep 11, 96 3:57 pm From: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What I was saying is that it isn't your, > or the government's, or anyone else's business to insist on having (in > Vinge's phrase) the "True Name" of the commercial entity corresponding > with anyone. Even in the USA, there are limits on the First Amendment. One already mentioned here is that there is a difference between allowing free speech to a person and providing the resources for that person to get his message out. The former is required by the First Amendment, the latter is not. There are other limits too where the courts have ruled that speech itself is a crime, such as falsely shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater is not protected speech. Neither is inciting a riot or inciting to commit a crime, or speech as harassment. Harassment is the issue that might apply to spammers. Harassment implies repeated communications, so I doubt you can stop a one-time spam by claiming harassment. However, people who deliberately hide their origin so that you cannot ask them to stop, and who continue sending communications when you would like them to stop, are committing harassment and I doubt very much if that kind of thing is protected by the First Amendment. I am making an analogy between the laws and court rulings at they apply to the telephone system and e-mail. The courts may or may not rule the same way. Lastly, I am well aware that discussions about the First Amendment apply only to communications that both originate and are received within the USA. --Greg From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 12:45:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA16489 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA16427 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9E9NFP6B49ULOQC@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:22 EDT Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:22 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: woods@ucar.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, remailer-operators@c2.org Message-id: <01I9E9NFP6B49ULOQC@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"woods@ucar.edu" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM",IN%"remailer-operators@c2.org" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"woods@ucar.edu" 12-SEP-1996 12:04:33.68 >Even in the USA, there are limits on the First Amendment. One already >mentioned here is that there is a difference between allowing free >speech to a person and providing the resources for that person to get >his message out. The former is required by the First Amendment, the >latter is not. I'm not disagreeing with this point. _As I stated,_ if you don't want to receive anonymous email, _legitimate_ remailer services will block you from receiving it through them. The proposal that I'm disagreeing with is for requiring that all email of a given type be non-anonymous... not AOL's, or anyone else's, right to not receive mail the person or organization does not want. Currently, neither the U.S. government nor other governments pay for email; therefore, they have no juristiction under the idea in question. >There are other limits too where the courts have ruled that speech itself >is a crime, such as falsely shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater >is not protected speech. Neither is inciting a riot or inciting to >commit a crime, or speech as harassment. Harassment is the issue that >might apply to spammers. Harassment implies repeated communications, >so I doubt you can stop a one-time spam by claiming harassment. However, >people who deliberately hide their origin so that you cannot ask them >to stop, and who continue sending communications when you would like >them to stop, are committing harassment and I doubt very much if that >kind of thing is protected by the First Amendment. I have some problems with all of these limits, with the exception of the continuing to send communications to someone who has requested otherwise (or without a mechanism to stop receiving it... which isn't the case with legitimate remailer services. Spam is not an excuse to ban all anonymous email, including anonymous commercial email). I have no problems with a requirement that someone be able to stop receiving such email; such does not entail a ban on anonymous email. "Shouting fire in a crowded theatre", while in and of itself a case that I can see, is often misused - most especially in the court case establishing it (banning political speech against the draft during a war). How, pray tell, is anonymous email going to cause such a problem? Laws banning speech encouraging someone to commit a crime also are highly questionable, given that political speech against a law often includes de facto encouragements to break that law - for instance, speech during Prohibition in the U.S. that alcohol wasn't as dangerous as the Carrie Nations and similar evangelists claimed. Moreover, such speech is by no means compelling anyone to break any laws - the responsibility for any wrongdoing (assuming the law bans something that actually is wrongful) belongs with the person doing the wrong, not someone talking to them about it. >Lastly, I am well aware that discussions about the First Amendment >apply only to communications that both originate and are received >within the USA. Actually, in practice it also covers communications originating inside but going outside the US. US courts would not extradite Salmon Rushdie to Iran for blasphemy, even if the US had an extradition treaty with Iran. -Allen From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 17:14:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA16210 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA16128 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.150.72.74] (noho-pm304.javanet.com [206.150.72.74]) by hamp.hampshire.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07699; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 19:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609120800.BAA22636@miles.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:02:32 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, jjflash@digex.net From: Michelle Murrain Subject: Re: Need List Host Recommendations Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:00 AM -0700 9/12/96, Jack Schnapper wrote: >I've been hosting a couple of lists on POBOX for awhile now but have found >them to be unresponsive, especially in a crisis that developed over the >last few days that has all but destroyed a new and very heavily subscribed >list. > >Therefore, I am seeking recommendations for list host providers to which I >can move my lists without going broke ;-) I'd prefer finding one that >charges a flat rate. Majordomo is what I've been using, but I think I >might like to try Listserv (either one is fine right now though). > >I'd really appreciate any recommendations anyone can send me ASAP as I am >in a "meltdown" situation with one of my lists. I've moved and changed managers of several lists in my years as list owner. The suggestion that I'd make is pretty simple: Ask members of the list. They obviously are interested in the topic at hand, and some of them might have resources available that would allow you to run your list for free, even. Michelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Home page URL -> http://persephone.hampshire.edu/~mpm Minority Health listowner (minhlth-request@family.hampshire.edu) Health Matrix listowner (hmatrix-l-request@persephone.hampshire.edu) sci.med.aids FAQ maintainer/co-moderator (http://persephone.hampshire.edu/aids/aidsfaq.html) From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 18:34:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA26437 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA26429 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 18:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pcusa01.ecunet.org id aa13870; 12 Sep 96 20:56 EDT Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: "E. Allen Smith" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:42:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Merrill Cook Cc: woods@ucar.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com, remailer-operators@c2.org In-Reply-To: <01I9E9NFP6B49ULOQC@mbcl.rutgers.edu> from "E. Allen Smith" at Sep 12, 96 03:22:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9609122042.aa05260@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From E. Allen Smith: > > want to receive anonymous email, _legitimate_ remailer services will block > you from receiving it through them. The proposal that I'm disagreeing with is > for requiring that all email of a given type be non-anonymous... not AOL's, > or anyone else's, right to not receive mail the person or organization does > not want. Currently, neither the U.S. government nor other governments pay > for email; therefore, they have no juristiction under the idea in question. There's a difference between anonymous (meaning, I don't know the true identity of the sender) and bogus (meaning, the sender takes steps to prevent me from sending a reply by email). I don't care to know the true identity of the person I'm sending to, if they receive my "take my name off your list" communication and act on it appropriately. If the address is at anon.penet.fi or its replacement, it's likely to be quite anonymous, and also deliverable. I think we should define the act of sending huge amounts of mail with a purposely disabled or concealed reply address as "fraud", as should masquerading as someone else. Sending commercial, off-subject mail to my list (so my machine has to do the work of distributing it, and my subscribers have to pay to receive it) without my permission should be labeled as "theft", as should using my copyrighted material without my permission. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 21:29:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA12045 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nico.bway.net (nico.bway.net [205.198.116.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA12009; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 21:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from testx@localhost) by nico.bway.net (8.7.1/8.6.12) id AAA00151; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:19:18 -0400 (EDT) From: testx To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Moderated lists and Subject lines Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello evry one I have installed majordomo-1.93 and it runs great for unmoderated lists. But when I try to create moderated list I have a little problem. For some reason any e-mail sent to moderated list looses "Subject:" header. Does any one know how to fix this. Thanks a lot Fil From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 12 22:59:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA16585 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA16565 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 1996 22:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA27452 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:53:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199609130553.AAA27452@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Jorge's orders? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:53:06 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Merrill Cook said... | |I think we should define the act of sending huge amounts of mail |with a purposely disabled or concealed reply address as "fraud", |as should masquerading as someone else. Sending commercial, |off-subject mail to my list (so my machine has to do the work of |distributing it, and my subscribers have to pay to receive it) |without my permission should be labeled as "theft"... I'll go along with that! Of course, inter-country criminal law gets hairy. But on the other hand, if we can get soe of the spammers convicted in some extra-strict Muslim countries, the problem would go away pretty quickly. -Miles From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 13 12:30:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA26199 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA26132 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 12:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9FNH1UCVC9ULP6J@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:09 EDT Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:09 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: mcook@ecunet.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, remailer-operators@c2.org Message-id: <01I9FNH1UCVC9ULP6J@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"mcook@ecunet.org" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com", IN%"remailer-operators@c2.org" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"mcook@ecunet.org" "Merrill Cook" 12-SEP-1996 21:13:37.71 >There's a difference between anonymous (meaning, I don't know the >true identity of the sender) and bogus (meaning, the sender takes >steps to prevent me from sending a reply by email). I don't care >to know the true identity of the person I'm sending to, if they >receive my "take my name off your list" communication and act on >it appropriately. If the address is at anon.penet.fi or its >replacement, it's likely to be quite anonymous, and also deliverable. While this is definitely a viewpoint more respecting of free speech, I would point out that being able to reply isn't actually necessary to get oneself taken off of a list, so long as it's going through remailer services that accept block requests. Most reply methods make a system more vulnerable to tracebacks, whether by law enforcement or the "Church" of Scientology; therefore, they tend to be avoided by those interested in reducing such vulnerabilities. >I think we should define the act of sending huge amounts of mail >with a purposely disabled or concealed reply address as "fraud", >as should masquerading as someone else. Sending commercial, >off-subject mail to my list (so my machine has to do the work of >distributing it, and my subscribers have to pay to receive it) >without my permission should be labeled as "theft", as should >using my copyrighted material without my permission. With the above caveats, agreed. -Allen From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 13 15:34:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA21310 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.seas.gwu.edu (franklin.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA17808 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from seas.gwu.edu (root@felix.seas.gwu.edu [128.164.9.3]) by franklin.seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA19683 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gypsy.seas.gwu.edu (sheryl@gypsy [128.164.2.10]) by seas.gwu.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA07890 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:52:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sheryl Coppenger Received: by gypsy.seas.gwu.edu id AA16817; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:52:17 -0400 Message-Id: <9609132152.AA16817@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:52:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm not disagreeing with this point. _As I stated,_ if you don't > want to receive anonymous email, _legitimate_ remailer services will block > you from receiving it through them. The proposal that I'm disagreeing with is > for requiring that all email of a given type be non-anonymous... not AOL's, > or anyone else's, right to not receive mail the person or organization does > not want. Currently, neither the U.S. government nor other governments pay > for email; therefore, they have no juristiction under the idea in question. Why do you think the government only has jurisdiction over things it pays for? You keep talking about *legitimate* services -- what protects people from the illegitimate ones? > I have some problems with all of these limits, with the exception > of the continuing to send communications to someone who has requested > otherwise (or without a mechanism to stop receiving it... which isn't the > case with legitimate remailer services. Spam is not an excuse to ban all > anonymous email, including anonymous commercial email). I have no problems > with a requirement that someone be able to stop receiving such email; such > does not entail a ban on anonymous email. My feeling about it is that until such time that the people sending the mail pay for the costs involved, no unsolicited mass mailing should be legal. Unsolicited faxes were banned on the grounds that it cost more for the receiver than the sender. It seems to me the same should be the case here. I don't care that much whether or not just email is anonymous. I just don't want to receive it. > >Lastly, I am well aware that discussions about the First Amendment > >apply only to communications that both originate and are received > >within the USA. > > Actually, in practice it also covers communications originating > inside but going outside the US. US courts would not extradite Salmon Rushdie > to Iran for blasphemy, even if the US had an extradition treaty with Iran. ?? I'm not sure how this fits in. My understanding of extradition treaties in general is that in order to get an extradition order the laws involved must be parallel. That is, blasphemy is not against the law in the US and so even if there was an extradition treaty there would be no grounds to extradite. However, if he had committed theft or murder and we had an extradition treaty with Iran there would be no problem -- if he chose to come to the United States under those conditions. My recollection is that he is a citizen of the UK and was living in London most of the time when that first happened and so what the US would do was moot. Also, some countries ban capital punishment and will not extradite a murderer to a place where he or she could be executed. -- Sheryl Coppenger SEAS Computing Facility Staff sheryl@seas.gwu.edu The George Washington University (202) 994-6853 http://www.seas.gwu.edu/staff/sheryl From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 14 00:44:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA09803 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA09718 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id DAA23283; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 03:32:53 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609140732.DAA23283@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu (Sheryl Coppenger) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 03:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9609132152.AA16817@gypsy.seas.gwu.edu> from "Sheryl Coppenger" at Sep 13, 96 05:52:17 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sheryl Coppenger wrote: [somebody else wrote] > > I'm not disagreeing with this point. _As I stated,_ if you don't > > want to receive anonymous email, _legitimate_ remailer services will block > > you from receiving it through them. The proposal that I'm disagreeing with is > > for requiring that all email of a given type be non-anonymous... not AOL's, > > or anyone else's, right to not receive mail the person or organization does > > not want. Currently, neither the U.S. government nor other governments pay > > for email; therefore, they have no juristiction under the idea in question. [Sheryl] > Why do you think the government only has jurisdiction over things it > pays for? You keep talking about *legitimate* services -- what protects > people from the illegitimate ones? I agree with you on that, except for possibly that one person's "legitimate" is another person's "illegitimate," but one point overlooked by everyone so far is that the governments undoubtedly *do* pay for email. Do they get free computers, disks, and connectivity that no-one else does? I think not. In fact, I shudder to think what the U.S. government may be paying for email, given what they've paid in the past for hammers and toilet seats, never mind stealth bombers. > > I have some problems with all of these limits, with the exception > > of the continuing to send communications to someone who has requested > > otherwise (or without a mechanism to stop receiving it... which isn't the > > case with legitimate remailer services. Spam is not an excuse to ban all > > anonymous email, including anonymous commercial email). I have no problems > > with a requirement that someone be able to stop receiving such email; such > > does not entail a ban on anonymous email. > > My feeling about it is that until such time that the people sending the > mail pay for the costs involved, no unsolicited mass mailing should be legal. > Unsolicited faxes were banned on the grounds that it cost more for the > receiver than the sender. It seems to me the same should be the case here. > > I don't care that much whether or not just email is anonymous. I just don't > want to receive it. My feeling is that I don't even want to send someone an email after receiving a commercial spam and tell them "don't send me any more." Someone else just scoops email addresses from wherever and does it again from a different address, or maybe the spammer just "moves" after too many requests and hits me again. My time is money too. As you said, "I just don't want to receive it." I don't mind the idea of *one* request to a central location that *all* spammers must observe (sort of like the place that people can request no junk mail), and that this one request would be good for all time. But I don't think that would work well. Maybe even better would be a required RFC822-style header: Advertisement: (insert keywords here) which would let users filter with appropriate tools. Examples: Advertisement: computers hardware software viruses Advertisement: cars autos auto-parts Advertisement: green-card alien citizenship (Mailing lists, just to get this back on topic -- are we sufficiently off-topic yet? -- could then just ignore anything with the Advertisement: header altogether.) It might even be advisable to put something in the SMTP protocol that says, in effect, "This message contains an Advertisement: header" and a response that says "We refuse to handle Advertisement: headers". Advertisers who failed to provide this header could then potentially be treated the same as those who send unsolicited fax ads. Cheers, Stan Ryckman (stanr@tiac.net) From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 14 01:39:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA14499 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 01:10:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA11878 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id AAA26228; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 00:47:26 -0700 Received: from wildride.schoneal.com(206.81.38.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma026208; Sat Sep 14 00:46:34 1996 Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id CAA00279 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:49:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199609140749.CAA00279@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Cool! Just what we all needed! Our own spam software and accounts! To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:49:41 -0500 (CDT) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I love these things with no To: line. The actual sppam is at the end, after all the other data I gathered. No doubt they are bootstrapping their email campaign with their own product. Note that this was to my personal account, not to webmaster or postmaster or spammaster or anything like that. So what shall we do? All spam them back with a copy of their own email? If anyone can come up with an actual, provable address for the perps, we could always subscribe them to a gazillion magazines and Franklin Mint originals. (Ha ha! Just kidding! That's probably illegal! Ha ha!) Anyone in NY want to give them a call and check them out? Be sure and read through the features carefully. -Miles meo@schoneal.com meo@rru.com ------------------------------------------------- SENDMAIL LOGS Sep 13 10:53:05 wildride sendmail[29624]: KAA29624: from=, size=2380, class=0, pri=32380, nrcpts=1, msgid=<199609131527.LAA19615@interramp.com>, proto=ESMTP, relay=pop3.interramp.com [38.8.32.2] Sep 13 10:53:05 wildride sendmail[29625]: KAA29624: to=, delay=00:00:01, mailer=local, stat=Sent ------------------------------------------------- FINGER DATA [just gives a sales pitch from PSI for interramp.com] ------------------------------------------------- SMTP VRFY telnet pop3.interramp.com 25 Trying 38.8.32.2... Connected to pop3.interramp.com. Escape character is '^]'. 220-interramp.com Sendmail 8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-pop-local ready at Sat, 14 Sep 1996 03:38:25 -0400 220 ESMTP spoken here vrfy SoftCell.Marketing 553 SoftCell.Marketing... No such user as SoftCell.Marketing ------------------------------------------------- WHOIS: whois INTERRAMP-DOM [rs.internic.net] PSINet, Inc (INTERRAMP-DOM) 510 Huntmar Park Drive Herndon, VA 22070 USA Domain Name: INTERRAMP.COM Administrative Contact: Administration, PSINet Domain (PDA4) psinet-domain-admin@PSI.COM (703) 904-4100 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Network Information and Support Center (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@psi.com (518) 283-8860 Billing Contact: Andrews, Ken (KA16) domain-fee-contact@PSI.COM 703-904-4100 Record last updated on 22-Feb-96. Record created on 14-Apr-94. Domain servers in listed order: NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10 NS2.PSI.NET 38.8.50.2 INTERRAMP.COM 38.8.17.2 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------- |From Mailer-Daemon@interramp.com Fri Sep 13 10:53:05 1996 |Return-Path: Mailer-Daemon@interramp.com |Received: from interramp.com (pop3.interramp.com [38.8.32.2]) by wildride.schone |al.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id KAA29624 for ; Fri, 13 Se |p 1996 10:53:04 -0500 |Received: from Default by interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-pop-local) | id LAA19615; Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:27:57 -0400 |Message-Id: <199609131527.LAA19615@interramp.com> |From: SoftCell.Marketing@interramp.com |Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 11:27:04 PDT |Subject: E Mail Works v.31 | | |The most complete bulk e mail system available | |EMAIL WORKS v 3.1 $399 | |CONNECTIONS & OTHER STUFF: Email Works is compatible with Windows 3.1, Windows 3.11 Windows NT and Windows 95. 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AUTO RESPONDER - great tool with bulk e mailing. | |REMOVE NAMES - all mailings go through our massive remove list file. Dealers being considered | |Call 212-953-5234 From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 14 16:29:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA02446 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA02429 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id QAA03559; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:23:16 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199609142323.QAA03559@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:23:14 -0700 (PDT) To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU Cc: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, remailer-operators@c2.org Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <01I9AJ8L4SCC9ULM12@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.2-960610-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of "E. Allen Smith" on scroll <01I9AJ8L4SCC9ULM12@mbcl.rutgers.edu> > First, there are some free-speech problems with this. Just because > someone's writing you about something commercial, and hasn't done > business > with you before, doesn't mean that they aren't protected by the First > Amendment. Yeah, the term you use is "free" speech (you don't need to lecture me on the alternate use of the word free in this context. I know what "free" refers to in "free-speech") not "you pay for me to speak to you"-speech. I have to pay a real out of pocket cost price to have spam sent to me. How does that fit in with your argument?? Does free-speech give me the right to harass people at their expense for as long as I want (and they can afford to pay for me to do it)?? b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 14 21:44:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA14025 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA14016 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9HLK791TY9ULPY6@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:35 EDT Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:35 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I9HLK791TY9ULPY6@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"brian@ilinx.bctel.net" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"brian@ilinx.bctel.net" 14-SEP-1996 19:18:55.04 >Yeah, the term you use is "free" speech (you don't need to lecture me on >the alternate use of the word free in this context. I know what "free" >refers to in "free-speech") not "you pay for me to speak to you"-speech. I >have to pay a real out of pocket cost price to have spam sent to me. How >does that fit in with your argument?? Does free-speech give me the right >to harass people at their expense for as long as I want (and they can >afford to pay for me to do it)?? As I've said time and again - read the whole thread before you respond, please, otherwise you're sending mail as useless as the spammers' - I'm not claiming that spammers should be free to send to you over your objections. I'm saying that, to protect free speech, commercial email needs to be as capable as non-commercial email of being legally anonymous. -Allen From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 14 21:50:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA13762 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA13755 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9HL6VO4EG9ULPY6@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:25 EDT Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:25 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Jodge orders AOL to allow junk email... (fwd) To: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I9HL6VO4EG9ULPY6@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"sheryl@seas.gwu.edu" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"sheryl@seas.gwu.edu" "Sheryl Coppenger" 13-SEP-1996 18:47:33.92 >> not want. Currently, neither the U.S. government nor other governments pay >> for email; therefore, they have no juristiction under the idea in question. >Why do you think the government only has jurisdiction over things it >pays for? You keep talking about *legitimate* services -- what protects >people from the illegitimate ones? My point was that I agree that you should be able to control email coming in when it costs you money. Email, except to the given government, does not typically cost a government money. Ergo, it is not in the above category. How can people be protected from spamming through illegitimate services? As soon as some patents expire, remailer are going to be able to accept digital cash. It will cost people sending the mail to send it - and it will cost a lot to do mass mailings. Currently, it wouldn't be that hard to trace mass mailings that aren't going through the remailer network - e.g., ones going out from a particular spammer's machine. Some disguises can be done, but sufficient effort can find them. That isn't the case with a proper remailer network, and so it needs additional protections such as charging. >I don't care that much whether or not just email is anonymous. I just don't >want to receive it. I was originally mailing, as most people seem to have forgotten, to protest someone's proposal that all commercial email be non-anonymous, and that fines, etcetera be exerted against anyone who made such mail anonymous. Therefore, we don't seem to disagree on this point. >?? I'm not sure how this fits in. My understanding of extradition treaties >in general is that in order to get an extradition order the laws involved >must be parallel. That is, blasphemy is not against the law in the US and >so even if there was an extradition treaty there would be no grounds to >extradite. However, if he had committed theft or murder and we had an >extradition treaty with Iran there would be no problem -- if he chose to >come to the United States under those conditions. My recollection is >that he is a citizen of the UK and was living in London most of the time >when that first happened and so what the US would do was moot. Also, >some countries ban capital punishment and will not extradite a murderer >to a place where he or she could be executed. Rushdie was an example; I was proposing the hypothetical situation of his being a US citizen and in the US. In the US, laws such as vs blasphemy are prohibited by the Bill of Rights; thus, the Bill of Rights would be protecting him from being extradited, in essence. (I believe, although - IANAL - I am not sure, that courts have found in the US that extradition cannot occur to a country in which liberties such as vs cruel and inhuman punishment (e.g., torture) are not protected. This would add additional protection.) -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 15 06:14:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA29480 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA29473 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03002 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:03:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 08:03:49 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak Reply-To: Paul E Kayak To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Jodge orders AWOL & allow junk mail... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I can no longer recall: What are the advantages in having individuals around who act with anonymity? And now I understand *both* business and private (personal?) matters on the Net can merit anonymous input? Input from behind that very helpful experiment device, the one-way mirror. Vass eeenterestingg! From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 15 23:00:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA09298 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jwp.bc.ca (jwp.bc.ca [205.206.196.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA09290 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from localhost (router,SLmail95 V2.1); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:44:12 Pacific Daylight Time Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from jjflash.digex.net (164.109.217.5::mail daemon; unverified,SLmail95 V2.1); Sun, 15 Sep 1996 22:44:04 Pacific Daylight Time Message-Id: <3.0b16.32.19691231190000.006953b4@mail.kajor.com> X-Sender: kajor@mail.kajor.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b16 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:44:59 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Seattle Mail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone run a list from an NT server using Seattle Mail and their list server (which recognizes listserv, listserver & majordomo in an administrative address)? The question I am trying to get answered is, does anyone know a relatively easy way for me, the list-owner to make modifications (adds, deletes, etc.)? It follow many of the same command set as listserv. But I cannot find an email method to add/delete members from the list (other than asking them to re-submit their request to the correct server address with the correct message). Besides, when a subscriber's address goes bad, I'd like to un-sub them and avoid all of those annoying messages informing me of undelivered messages? BTW, I was the one looking for a list host provider and have found one (as described above). Thanks to all of you who sent suggestions. I will be hanging on to them for future reference.
Jack Schnapper KWS (Kajor Web Services) kajor@kajor.com - http://kajor.com Web Site Authoring & Hosting
From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 17:29:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA09446 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA09403 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA02887 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:22:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609170022.UAA02887@panix.com> Subject: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:22:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm curious to know how many other list owners are receiving indications that their lists are being added to other lists, as pranks or some other form of abuse? Just this evening this happened again, and I don't know if one rogue idiot is doing it to my list, or perhaps many lists, or what, but I received another list welcome message (thankfully majordomo didn't permit it to post). Is this rare or common, and why do I suspect there is no way to prevent it from continuing? -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 21:03:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA07607 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA07569 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA13366 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA19058; Mon, 16 Sep 96 23:41:53 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609170341.AA19058@smoe.org> Subject: spam from Smith Barney To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Two of my mailing lists received this today. Anyone else? > >From Howard_Marsh@smb.com Mon Sep 16 18:45:09 1996 > Return-Path: > Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) > id AA14659; Mon, 16 Sep 96 18:45:09 EDT > Received: from interramp.com (ip126.isdn3.new-york4.ny.psi.net [38.26.39.126]) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27737; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:27:38 -0700 > Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960916222920.0067d708@smb.com> > X-Sender: Howard_Marsh@smb.com (Unverified) > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:29:20 -0400 > To: Smith Barney Mail List > From: Ward Marsh > Subject: Thanks for Your Subscription > > Welcome to the Smith Barney Muni mail list. > > We will be mailing you news about the municipal bond market every ten days > or so. > > For example this week as the stock market climbs to new highs, > Smith Barney is pleased to bring you municipal bond offerings > from Hawaii and Sand Diego. > > As you know, our web site is http://nestegg.iddis.com/smithbarney. > > There you will find invaluable contacts. > > We thank you for your interest in Smith Barney. > > _____________________________________________ > If you wish to remove yurself from this list do not send an e-mail reply. > Our listserv is not equipped to handle subsciption requests. > > Please call 212-723-5373 and ask for Ward Marsh or fax us a note at > 212-723-8939. Be sure to include your name, phone ,and email address along > with the words "unsubscribe munimail" > > From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 21:08:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA08756 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id UAA08626 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA29560 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA21901; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:40:57 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960916165518.006fbe30@idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: klb4@idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:55:18 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Possible Spamming Attempt? Cc: khyri@ayla.idyllmtn.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is either a possible attempt to subscribe to multiple mailing lists at once, or a really, really, really botched legitimate subscribe request. Either way, I received it on a majordomo bounce so thought I'd ask for your collective greater wisdom on this one: Actually, looking at it in more detail as I was about to quote it, this seems to be someone's threat -- buried back deep in the back of this message. It's certainly bizarre, though. Any suggestions? (Also note that none of the lists named below are hosted at Idyll Mountain Internet, and IMI is not a company that engages in mailspam anyway.) >Received: from localhost (localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with internal id AAA18325; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:16:23 -0700 >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:16:23 -0700 >From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >Subject: Returned mail: User unknown >Message-Id: <199609160716.AAA18325@ayla.idyllmtn.com> >To: Majordomo-Owner >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="AAA18325.842858183/ayla.idyllmtn.com" > >The original message was received at Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:13:46 -0700 >from daemon@localhost > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- >goodnews2u@juno.com (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to a.mx.juno.com.: >>>> RCPT To: ><<< 550 ... User unknown >550 goodnews2u@juno.com... User unknown > > ----- Original message follows ----- >Return-Path: Majordomo-Owner >Received: (from daemon@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) id AAA18323; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:13:46 -0700 >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:13:46 -0700 >Message-Id: <199609160713.AAA18323@ayla.idyllmtn.com> >To: goodnews2u@juno.com >From: Majordomo >Subject: Majordomo results: subscribe QSA , subscribe tx-firearms yo >Reply-To: Majordomo > >-- > >>>>> subscribe QSA , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe tx-firearms your_email_address , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'tx-firearms'. >>>>> subscribe gundog-l yourFirstName yourLastName , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'gundog-l'. >>>>> subscribe web-opps (your E-mail address) , >**** subscribe: invalid address '(your E-mail address) ,' >>>>> SUBSCRIBE EXOTIC-L your-first-name your-last-name , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'EXOTIC-L'. >>>>> subscribe JRT-DOGS-L , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'JRT-DOGS-L'. >>>>> subscribe biomch-l first_name last_name , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'biomch-l'. >>>>> subscribe seedpods , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe gyn-cancer [] , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'gyn-cancer'. >>>>> subscribe naaap_chi , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe squeezebox , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe galist , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe crystals your e-mail address , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'crystals'. >>>>> subscribe crystals-digest your e-mail address , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'crystals-digest'. >>>>> subscribe xboat Your Email Address , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'xboat'. >>>>> SUB ob-gyn-l Your Name >**** Command 'sub' not recognized. >>>>> SUBSCRIBE BISEXU-L your_full_name , >**** subscribe: unknown list 'BISEXU-L'. >>>>> subscribe gaynet , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe lgb-sports , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> subscribe feminism-digest , >**** subscribe: invalid address ',' >>>>> SET TRANSGEN MAIL >**** Command 'set' not recognized. >>>>> SET TRANSGEN DIGEST >**** Command 'set' not recognized. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To whom it may concern, >**** Command 'to' not recognized. >>>>> >>>>> I am not tolerating any more=20 >**** Command 'i' not recognized. >>>>> unsolicited mail(spamming) from you any more. >**** Command 'unsolicited' not recognized. >>>>> >>>>> Some time in the next 48 hours you will begin to receive=20 >**** Command 'some' not recognized. >>>>> robot generated mail - Perhaps more mail than your=20 >**** Command 'robot' not recognized. >>>>> connection allows for easily. >**** Command 'connection' not recognized. >>>>> >>>>> There will be no point tracing this message=92s origins as=20 >**** Command 'there' not recognized. >>>>> it will have been sent from an alias email account in=20 >**** Command 'it' not recognized. >>>>> some obscure internet caf=E9=92. >**** Command 'some' not recognized. >>>>> >>>>> The robots owners will have no knowledge of this message=20 >**** Command 'the' not recognized. >>>>> or it=92s author. The only method of stoppage is the halt=20 >**** Command 'or' not recognized. >>>>> of junk mail material. This procedure I am=20 >**** Command 'of' not recognized. >>>>> about to initiate is simple and will automatically=20 >**** Command 'about' not recognized. >>>>> restart should you attempt to avoid it. >**** Command 'restart' not recognized. >>>>> -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett // klb4@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet Postmaster / \ //\ /\ \ / \ HTML Writers Guild Mailing List Manager '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 22:03:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA20084 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA20075 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA12508 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:01:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199609170501.AAA12508@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:01:08 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko said... | | |Two of my mailing lists received this today. Anyone else? |... |> If you wish to remove yurself from this list do not send an e-mail reply. |> Our listserv is not equipped to handle subsciption requests. |> |> Please call 212-723-5373 and ask for Ward Marsh or fax us a note at |> 212-723-8939. Be sure to include your name, phone ,and email address along |> with the words "unsubscribe munimail" I suggest that as soon as this is verified, we all call it and explain to them the error of their ways. If we meet the least resistance, we should inform them we are notifying the WSJ and NYT of their bloopers. -Miles, the press can be your friend From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 22:59:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA27158 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA27085 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA12725 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:51:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199609170551.AAA12725@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:51:52 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Scott Hazen Mueller said... | |>I suggest that as soon as this is verified, we all call it and explain to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |>them the error of their ways. If we meet the least resistance, we should |>inform them we are notifying the WSJ and NYT of their bloopers. | |It might well be a troll or an attempt to harass the owner of the listed |phone numbers. The idea here being that someone local (212 area code) call them and see, and report to the rest of us. Any volunteers? -Miles From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 16 23:14:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA29884 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.isdn.wwa.com (chinet.chinet.com [206.158.147.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA29826 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinet.chinet.com (localhost) by chinet.isdn.wwa.com ; 17 SEP 96 01:05:53 CDT Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:05:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam H. Kerman" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists In-Reply-To: <199609170022.UAA02887@panix.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:22:11 -0400 (EDT) > From: Danny Lieberman > I'm curious to know how many other list owners are receiving > indications that their lists are being added to other lists, > as pranks or some other form of abuse? Amazing. The very next message in my mailbox was the following (the damned thing went out to the list): {begin extracts from message} >From Howard_Marsh@smb.comTue Sep 17 00:50:19 1996 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:27:26 -0400 From: Ward Marsh To: Smith Barney Mail List Subject: Thanks for Your Subscription Welcome to the Smith Barney Muni mail list. We will be mailing you news about the municipal bond market every ten days or so. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ For example this week as the stock market climbs to new highs, Smith Barney is please to bring you municipal bond offerings from Hawaii and Sand Diego. ^^^^ _____________________________________________ If you wish to remove yurself from this list do not send an e-mail reply. ^^^^^^^ Our listserv is not equipped to handle subsciption requests. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Please call 212-723-5373 and ask for Ward Marsh or fax us a note at 212-723-8939. Be sure to include your name, phone ,and email address along with the words "unsubscribe munimail" {end of Smith Barney message} Given the number of misspelled words, I wonder if this thing is a bad joke. I like the innovations: "Our listserv cannot handle list commands, so unsubscribe by fax, or give us a personal call to hear another sales pitch." I'll have to look into seeing if a complaint could be filed with SEC or National Association of Securities Dealers. From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 17 01:17:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA09431 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA09424 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id EAA25525 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:08:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609170808.EAA25525@panix.com> Subject: Smith Barney Spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 04:08:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this response from Smith Barney on the list-spammer : - DL Forwarded message: > From james_oshea@smb.com Mon Sep 16 22:24:34 1996 > From: james_oshea@smb.com (James P. O'Shea III) > Message-Id: <9609162224.ZM2029@ws232034> > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:24:24 -0400 > In-Reply-To: Danny Lieberman > "unsubscribe - list abuse problems" (Sep 16, 8:12pm) > References: <199609170012.UAA01352@panix.com> > X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) > To: Danny Lieberman > Subject: Re: unsubscribe - list abuse problems > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Sep 16, 8:12pm, Danny Lieberman wrote: > > Subject: unsubscribe - list abuse problems > >Please unsubscribe the address "ebikes@Panix.com" from your mailing > >list. Ebikes@panix.com is another mailing list, and somehow, I don't > >know by whom, has gotten entangled on YOUR list. This is a serious > >problem, not to mention breach of Internet-etiquette and rules. > > > >If you have any questions feel free to write back to me at > >dfl@panix.com or owner-ebikes@panix.com, but please unsubscribe > >ebikes@panix.com immediately. > > > >--- > > > >> Welcome to the Smith Barney Muni mail list. > >> > >> We will be mailing you news about the municipal bond market every ten days > >> or so. > >> > >> For example this week as the stock market climbs to new highs, > >> Smith Barney is please to bring you municipal bond offerings > >> from Hawaii and Sand Diego. > >> > >> As you know, our web site is http://nestegg.iddis.com/smithbarney. > >> > >> There you will find invaluable contacts. > >> > >> We thank you for your interest in Smith Barney. > >> > >> _____________________________________________ > >> If you wish to remove yurself from this list do not send an e-mail reply. > >> Our listserv is not equipped to handle subsciption requests. > >> > >> Please call 212-723-5373 and ask for Ward Marsh or fax us a note at > >> 212-723-8939. Be sure to include your name, phone ,and email address along > >> with the words "unsubscribe munimail" > >> > >> > >-- > > > >Danny Lieberman > >dfl@panix.com > >-- End of excerpt from Danny Lieberman > > > As a fellow panixian (jposhea3) I appreciate your annoyance given allt > he > panix attacks recently...but.... > > Folks, the message is a forgery, most likely by a disgruntled former > employee. We've been working with PSI to track down the source of the > postings, which include NNTP spam as well as (now it seems) listserv > abuse. > Sorry you were caught in the middle. We're trying to find the miscreant > responsible. > -James > network security, postmastering, etc. > > > -- > > ---------------------------->>>>Note NEW PAGER numbers 6/27/96 > James P. O'Shea III 212-723-5885 (voice) > Systems Administrator 212-723-5021 (fax) > Smith Barney Inc. > 390 Greenwich/6 West 800-225-0256 PIN 306296 (alpha page) > jposhea3@panix.com 917-820-5855 (digital page) > james_oshea@smb.com -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 17 15:02:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA15773 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA15523; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA17931; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:10:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:10:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen To: List Managers , Majordomo-Users Lists , Majordomo Workers List Subject: My apologies Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There was some mail loop coming from my account (actually, brozen@starlinknet.net and brozen@netvoyage.net) earlier this month that may have affected some of the users on these lists. I've since rectified the problem and would like to apologize for this. Sincerely, Brock Rozen (BTW, notice the new e-mail address) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 17 19:46:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA06152 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA06037 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA19423 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA29811; Tue, 17 Sep 96 22:24:09 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609180224.AA29811@smoe.org> Subject: An apology from Smith Barney (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk james_oshea@smb.com writes: > From james_oshea@smb.com Tue Sep 17 22:14:20 1996 > From: james_oshea@smb.com > Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:13:06 -0400 > Message-Id: <199609180213.WAA05196@ws238054.ny.smb.com> > To: jeffw@smoe.org > Subject: An apology from Smith Barney > > > > Apologies if you receive more than one copy of this message, > but I'm auto-mailing trying to handle the flood: > > Redistribution to the list from which you originally received the > problem message is kindly requested. > > > Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. The email or > posting you have seen falsely represents Smith Barney and its > employees. These are erroneous postings that did not originate from > anyone employed by our firm, and therefore we cannot directly stop > them from occurring. However we have advised the companies we believe > to have serviced the originator of these messages and we are pursuing > all possible steps to end this fraud. Unfortunately some people abuse > the Internet and we regret any inconvenience they may have caused you. > > There are currently no mailing lists maintained in the smb.com domain, > so you were not subscribed to any list. If you receive any further > messages of this nature, they are the product of the same spurious > source. > > We're sorry for any inconvenience you may have experienced as a result > of this unfortunate abuse of the 'Net. > > Further queries via email to postmaster@smb.com please. > > Thanks. > -James > postmaster, network security, etc. > > ----------------------- > James P. O'Shea III > Smith Barney Inc. > postmaster@smb.com > > > From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 17 20:59:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA11781 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA11740 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA09102; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 19:56:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199609180256.TAA09102@weber.ucsd.edu> To: ahk@chinet.chinet.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: "Adam H. Kerman"'s message of Tue, 17 Sep 1996 01:05:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was added to the Smith Barney spam too. My whole mailing list. I forwarded it to their postmaster (probably useless) and to netcom and interramp since the post was gatewayed through both. Big grrs... Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 17 21:09:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA13319 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA13251 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 20:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA27581; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA00564; Tue, 17 Sep 96 23:04:41 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609180304.AA00564@smoe.org> Subject: Who is Parsecweb/WhoWhere? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 23:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: rupesh@WHOWHERE.COM Organization: Jeff's Personal System X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I started getting a bunch of bounces on my lists for an address 'mlist@parsecweb.com': ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- /home/rupesh/email-service/MISC/SUCKING-MAILING-LISTS/mlist (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 /home/rupesh/email-service/MISC/SUCKING-MAILING-LISTS/mlist... Can't create output: Stale NFS file handle When I dug around, I found that mlist is subscribed to all of my mailing lists. I took a look at www.parsecweb.com (which is the same as WhoWhere), and it seems to be yet another 'net indexing' service.... I do wish people would learn that it is polite to ask for permission before indexing a list. -Jeff From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 18 23:01:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA03016 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA03009 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 5; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:59:15 PDT Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:59:12 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A893D.7909B2F0.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: List probing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone seen any attempts to probe their lists from mldmail@reference.com? -HWM From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 00:15:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA07857 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from domen.uninett.no (domen.uninett.no [129.241.131.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id AAA07850 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:13:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no Received: from domen.uninett.no by domen.uninett.no with SMTP (PP) id <24277-0@domen.uninett.no>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:13:59 +0200 X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.7 5/3/96 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing list discovery agents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa0" Content-ID: <24270.843117236.0@domen.uninett.no> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:13:57 +0200 Message-ID: <24274.843117237@domen.uninett.no> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <24270.843117236.1@domen.uninett.no> Here's an argument for switching dead or nearly-dead mailing lists that you don't want to delete for some reason from automatic processing to MANUAL (as in "-request goes to a human only") processing. When I did "finger" on this address, it gave back: [reference.com] Login Name TTY Idle When Where mldmail Mailing-list Discove pts/18 It's nice to know when someone is trolling your mailing lists. Harald T. Alvestrand (no, I'm not a list-managers member. I didn't manage to stay abreast of the flood. But it seemed the appropriate forum.) ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From hta-postlister-request@domen.uninett.no Thu Sep 19 09:02:40 1996 Received: (from hta@localhost) by dale.uninett.no (8.6.9/8.6.12) with UUCP id JAA03172 for Harald.T.Alvestrand@dale.uninett.no; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:02:40 +0200 Received: from aun.uninett.no (aun.uninett.no [129.241.1.99]) by trane.uninett.no (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA28414 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:08:12 +0200 (METDST) Received: from domen.uninett.no by aun.uninett.no with SMTP (PP); Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:06:47 +0200 Received: from aun.uninett.no by domen.uninett.no with SMTP (PP) id <22393-0@domen.uninett.no>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:06:41 +0200 Received: from bilbo.reference.com by aun.uninett.no with SMTP (PP); Thu, 19 Sep 1996 04:06:34 +0200 Received: from bilbo.reference.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bilbo.reference.com (8.8.Beta.5/8.8.Beta.5a) with ESMTP id TAA17437 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609190206.TAA17437@bilbo.reference.com> To: mixmh-info-request@uninett.no From: mldmail@reference.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:06:31 -0700 Sender: mldmail@reference.com info mixmh-info ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa0-- From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 01:18:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA09751 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (aurora.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.1.91]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA09743 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wigs@localhost) by aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (8.7.3/8.6.4) id RAA13840; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:58:07 +1000 (EST) From: Mr Aaron Wigley Message-Id: <199609190758.RAA13840@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au> Subject: Re: List probing To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:58:07 +1000 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <009A893D.7909B2F0.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Sep 18, 96 10:59:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller wrote ... > Has anyone seen any attempts to probe their lists from > mldmail@reference.com? Yes. The milieu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (majordomo) mailing list received an attempt thisafternoon. Wigs, Manager of the Julian May Discussion list From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 02:30:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA17146 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA17139 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 4; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:17:45 PDT Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 02:17:43 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: wigs@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A8959.345C9C00.4@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: List probing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"wigs@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au" 19-SEP-1996 01:23:01.16 > Subj: Re: List probing > Henry W. Miller wrote ... > > Has anyone seen any attempts to probe their lists from > > mldmail@reference.com? > > Yes. The milieu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (majordomo) mailing list > received an attempt thisafternoon. > > Wigs, Manager of the Julian May Discussion list Based upon a previous message to the list, I hit their WEB site, http://www.reference.com/. Looks fairly harmless, like DejaNews, except that they cover mailing lists as well. Does anyone have good/bad feelings about this? The list that they tried to probe was closed, so the message bounced to the list manager and postmaster, both being me. I have some lists that I do not want "indexed". Others I don't really care, in fact it might breath some new life into them. But I definately do not want any of my lists to become SPAM targets, as I'm sure none of us do. Best, -HWM From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 07:00:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA02494 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA02484 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 06:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id IAA27202 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:48:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199609191348.IAA27202@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: possible spam from joy.is@MAIL.ASIANET.IT To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:48:53 -0500 (CDT) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Goold old listserv... It's not commercial, but it's annoying nevertheless. -Miles meo@rru.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 05:58:51 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at PSUVM (1.8b)" [explanation deleted] ----------------- Message requiring verification (36 lines) ------------------- Return-Path: Received: from PSUVM (NJE origin SMTP@PSUVM) by PSUVM.PSU.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9241; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 05:58:50 -0400 Received: from dns.asianet.it by PSUVM.PSU.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 19 Sep 96 05:58:48 EDT Received: from J ([151.99.131.50]) by dns.asianet.it (post.office MTA v1.9.1 ID# 0-12345) with SMTP id AAA280; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:47:36 +0200 X-Sender: joy.is@mail.asianet.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: joy Subject: joy is accepting your joy Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:47:36 +0200 Message-ID: <19960919094700062.AAA280@J> i knock joyously on your door and hope not to disturb you, i invite you to help me to describe joy. the dream is simply to describe joy. to the internet address http://bellaria.asianet.it/chbell/joy/pagina.htm you can take the text, it is for the general public and it gathers together many joys, if you wish you can add to these the ones you know. i advise you, before answering, to make a list of your joys, then check the text and see which ones are missing, and then send the joys which are not in the text. thankyou so much :)) i send you an embrace of joy. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 09:00:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA15699 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA15690 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from echonyc.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: echonyc.com [198.67.15.2]) id QQbhvz15725; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from gecko@localhost) by echonyc.com (8.6.12/echo-relay) id LAA08843; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:47:56 -0400 From: Liza Daly Message-Id: <199609191547.LAA08843@echonyc.com> Subject: Re: List probing To: wigs@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr Aaron Wigley) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609190758.RAA13840@aurora.cc.monash.edu.au> from "Mr Aaron Wigley" at Sep 19, 96 05:58:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Henry W. Miller wrote ... > Has anyone seen any attempts to probe their lists from > mldmail@reference.com? Yes, but it isn't particularly new. My log shows that in May, it checked our server for all available lists, did an "info" on all of them, and nothing else. Today it only "info"ed the most accessible list (most of the others are closed). It never tried to get subscriber lists -- I'd guess it's relatively harmless. --Liza -- Liza Daly Iguanas mailing list -- Mail to gecko@echonyc.com iguanas-request@echonyc.com with http://fovea.retina.net/~gecko "subscribe iguanas-digest" in http://fovea.retina.net/~gecko/herps the body of the message. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 12:30:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09351 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA09329 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0v3ocw-000k1QC; Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:19 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: List probing To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:19:10 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <009A893D.7909B2F0.5@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Sep 18, 96 10:59:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller asked, | Has anyone seen any attempts to probe their lists from | mldmail@reference.com? It tried to snoop about the Party of Five List twice in the last twenty-four hours. From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 13:46:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA18918 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA15882 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from park.interport.net (park.interport.net [199.184.165.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA13195 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:15:02 -0700 (PDT) From: kieran@interport.net Received: from interport.net (kieran@madison.nfs.interport.net [205.161.144.1]) by park.interport.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29275 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from kieran@localhost) by interport.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17208 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609170415.AAA17208@interport.net> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 00:15:00 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <9609170341.AA19058@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Sep 16, 96 11:41:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > Two of my mailing lists received this today. Anyone else? > > > >From Howard_Marsh@smb.com Mon Sep 16 18:45:09 1996 Yes, one of my lists did as well; luckily it was caught since the list is suscriber-post-only. It's so bizarre, though, that I don't know how to deal with it. The "how to unsubscribe" rules at the bottom are so inscrutable and rudely designed that I want to believe this is just classic spam, but then I can't understand why it would come from _Smith Barney_, a large more-or-less reputable company that you think would know better than to do something like this. If anyone learns anything more about this, please do post. --Aaron From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 14:19:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA15873 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA15821 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA01962 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20876 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:10:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609170310.WAA20876@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:22:11 -0400 (EDT)" References: <199609170022.UAA02887@panix.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 22:10:56 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DL" == Danny Lieberman writes: DL> I'm curious to know how many other list owners are receiving DL> indications that their lists are being added to other lists, as pranks DL> or some other form of abuse? I've been on the other end of the problem; people were trying to subscribe other lists to one of my lists, which carries a rather large amount of somewhat bizarre traffic. I switched to requiring approval if the From: line didn't match the the subscription address, but this only led to forged subscribes. Then I moved to confirmed subscribes and the problem stopped. I have also had people create their own mailing lists, subscribe them to my list, then subscribe victims to that list. Needless to say it didn't take long to figure out who was causing that mess. DL> Is this rare or common, and why do I suspect there is no way to prevent DL> it from continuing? I imagine that is close to impossible to prevent someone from subscribing your list to another list if that list doesn't have adequate security. At least the source of messages from one list will be somewhat constant, though, so it's less of a problem than getting rid of some person who posts from random addresses. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 21:47:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA26538 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA26527 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 21:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA30495; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:36:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199609200436.XAA30495@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: possible spam from joy.is@MAIL.ASIANET.IT To: meo@schoneal.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:36:06 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609191348.IAA27202@wildride.schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Sep 19, 96 08:48:53 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Miles O'Neal said... | |Goold old listserv... It's not commercial, but it's annoying |nevertheless. Well, Mr. Ambiguous strikes again. Good old listserv, because it caught it. Not commercial but annoying refers to the post, not to listserv. -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 19 22:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA04596 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id WAA04576 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 22:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA20339 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9NVTJS83E8Y4ZFH@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:34 EDT Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:34 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists To: dfl@panix.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I9NVTJS83E8Y4ZFH@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"dfl@panix.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"dfl@panix.com" "Danny Lieberman" 17-SEP-1996 01:16:07.96 >Is this rare or common, and why do I suspect there is no way to >prevent it from continuing? It'll happen less often (along with significant numbers of other abuses) as soon as lists are configured to require passworded confirmation messages to subscribe. -Allen From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 20 00:15:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA13206 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA13182 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:47:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA23277 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) id OAA23430; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:03:07 -0700 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199609192103.OAA23430@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: kieran@interport.net Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609170415.AAA17208@interport.net> from "kieran@interport.net" at Sep 17, 96 00:15:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aaron wrote: > The "how to unsubscribe" rules at the bottom are so > inscrutable and rudely designed that I want to believe this is just > classic spam, but then I can't understand why it would come from _Smith > Barney_, a large more-or-less reputable company that you think would know > better than to do something like this. > If anyone learns anything more about this, please do post. It didn't come from Smith Barney; it was a hoax from apparently a disgruntled employee. This has been mentioned on this list previously. --Kynn From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 20 00:20:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA13213 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id XAA13193 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA23611 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id RAA14292; Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:08:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609192108.RAA14292@panix.com> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: kieran@interport.net Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 17:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199609170415.AAA17208@interport.net> from "kieran@interport.net" at Sep 17, 96 00:15:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Yes, one of my lists did as well; luckily it was caught since the list is > suscriber-post-only. It's so bizarre, though, that I don't know how to > deal with it. The "how to unsubscribe" rules at the bottom are so > inscrutable and rudely designed that I want to believe this is just > classic spam, but then I can't understand why it would come from _Smith > Barney_, a large more-or-less reputable company that you think would know > better than to do something like this. > > If anyone learns anything more about this, please do post. Aaron, did you miss the posts with the apology from Smith Barney? It appears the whole thing was a hoax-spam, there is no mailing list at smb.com - they suspect a disgruntled employee and have apologized to most of the lists affected, at least those that wrote back. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 20 01:21:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA22405 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id BAA22220 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.6.6.Beta9) id EAA26556; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:00:22 -0400 From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609200800.EAA26556@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: spam from Smith Barney To: dfl@panix.com (Danny Lieberman) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Cc: kieran@interport.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199609192108.RAA14292@panix.com> from "Danny Lieberman" at Sep 19, 96 05:08:23 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Danny Lieberman wrote: [snip] > Aaron, did you miss the posts with the apology from Smith Barney? > It appears the whole thing was a hoax-spam, there is no mailing list > at smb.com - they suspect a disgruntled employee and have apologized > to most of the lists affected, at least those that wrote back. I think you (and Kynn) missed the date on Aaron's post; it was delayed a few days before getting to the list. Let's not give him a hard time for that. (This particular issue seems to be dead, at least for us, though not for Smith Barney until they catch the culprit.) The generic problem of what disgruntled ex-employees might be able to do to try and embarrass their ex-employer is most interesting, however. I would not be surprised to see more of this in the future. Cheers, Stan Ryckman (stanr@tiac.net) From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 20 04:15:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA08452 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov (arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.127.166]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id EAA08417 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 04:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.183.127.175] (ingham.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.127.175]) by arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov (8.7.6/8.7.6) with ESMTP id HAA27459 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:19:00 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Bruce O'Neel" Subject: E Mail Works v3.1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is depressing... >From: SoftCell.Marketing.Inc.@interramp.com >Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:35:51 PDT >Subject: E Mail Works v3.1 > >IF YOU DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS MESSAGE YOU WILL BE >PUT ON OUR REMOVE LIST > > >SOFTCELL MARKETING > >The most complete bulk e mail system available > >EMAIL WORKS v 3.1 $399 > >CONNECTIONS & OTHER STUFF: Email Works is compatible with Windows 3.1, >Windows 3.11 Windows NT and Windows 95. 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It=EDs >that simple. >3k per hour. > >BUILT IN NEWS GROUP READER & POSTER: this feature allows you to read your >news groups >and now you can also post your sales message to any news group of your >choice automatically! > >BUILT IN MARKETING ANALYSIS TABLE: this feature allows you to do a >marketing analysis on >each and every letter you email out! > >UNLIMITED TECHNICAL SUPPORT: 30 DAY MONEY BACK > >GUARANTEE! If for some reason you are not completely satisfied with Email >Works simply return >to us for a full refund. No Questions Asked!!! call our office at: >212-953-5234. > >AND THIS FOR $99 PER MONTH! FIRST MONTH FREE!!!! > >BULLET PROOF SITE DOMAIN & IP ADDRESS - never worry again about having you >site ripped >down. >5 MB WEB - for your web site. >10MB E MAIL BOX - with anti flaming!!!!..will not except large messages or >multiple messages. > >POP ACCOUNT - send out as much mail as you want! AUTO RESPONDER - great >tool with bulk e mailing. > >REMOVE NAMES - all mailings go through our massive remove list file. >Dealers being considered > >Call 212-953-5234 oneel@arupa.gsfc.nasa.gov - T2/51 - (301) 286-1511 - Bruce O'Neel - "I am fascinated by the World Wide Web [and] am much sobered by the fact that no one predicted its occurrence ... It seems to me almost a case study in chaos theory. - Robert Lucky ComputerWorld, 96/6/3 From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 11:15:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28430 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA28413 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from brian@localhost) by ilinx.ilinx.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA22112 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:16:19 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199609211816.LAA22112@ilinx.ilinx.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: interramp harbouring spammers X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3-960829-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is it just me or is there an inordinate number of spammers coming from interramp.com?? I have received so much spam from them lately, it's like they (Interramp) don't care about it. Anybody getting the same feeling, or is it just an evil plot against me?? :-) b. Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 13:01:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA02534 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA02527 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0v4Xzg-000k0MC; Sat, 21 Sep 96 14:45 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:45:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Danny Lieberman reminded us, when a delayed question about the spam with the Smith-Barney return address trickled in, | It appears the whole thing was a hoax-spam, there is no mailing list | at smb.com - they suspect a disgruntled employee and have apologized | to most of the lists affected, at least those that wrote back. Maybe I'm the only cynical one here, but when I read Smith-Barney's apology my reaction was that it was the "kid brother" excuse: someone is caught dead to rights posting something foul and inappropriate, and makes the excuse that "my kid brother got into my account, and I'm SO SO sorry, and I've changed all my passwords and it won't happen again." This comes, of course, from people with no kid brothers or none who live with them, just trying to weasel out of responsibility for what they did. And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else feel that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their "disgruntled ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling when they learned that they'd done something that was harming their image? From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 13:15:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA03848 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wildride.schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA03841 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from meo@localhost) by wildride.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id PAA06765; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:09:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199609212009.PAA06765@wildride.schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:09:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "David W. Tamkin" at Sep 21, 96 02:45:39 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin said... | |And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else feel |that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their "disgruntled |ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling when they learned |that they'd done something that was harming their image? I might have, except that after I looked again when I wasn't exhausted, the post was chock full of errors of the type typically made by 3rd graders - or sloppy hackers. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 13:31:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA04443 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA04425 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:17:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attitude.queernet.org (attitude.queernet.org [140.174.78.2]) by queernet.queernet.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24371 Message-Id: <3.0b16.32.19960921131730.01526508@pop.queernet.org> X-Sender: rogerk@pop.queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b16 (32) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:17:31 -0700 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:45 PM 9/21/96 -0500, David W. Tamkin wrote: >And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else feel >that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their "disgruntled >ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling when they learned >that they'd done something that was harming their image? It's highly unlikely: the message came through nodes which are not part of smb.com's connectivity, and never touched down at any system in the smb.com domain... From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 13:35:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA04976 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA04962 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0v4YbE-000k1BC; Sat, 21 Sep 96 15:24 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Cc: meo@schoneal.com, rogerk@queernet.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wrote, T> And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else T> feel that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their T> "disgruntled ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling T> when they learned that they'd done something that was harming their image? ... to which Miles O'Neal and Roger B. A. Klorese have said in mail carboned to list-managers: O> I might have, except that after I looked again when I wasn't exhausted, O> the post was chock full of errors of the type typically made by 3rd O> graders - or sloppy hackers. K> It's highly unlikely: the message came through nodes which are not part K> of smb.com's connectivity, and never touched down at any system in the K> smb.com domain... Thank you both. I guess that once I read in a sentence or two and saw it was spam I didn't read further nor more deeply. From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 15:15:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA15006 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA14994 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 15:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts52-16.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.142.36]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id SAA03656; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609212208.SAA03656@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:45 PM 21/09/96 -0500, David W. Tamkin wrote: >And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else feel >that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their "disgruntled >ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling when they learned >that they'd done something that was harming their image? What I'd like to know is how long had this ex-employee been "ex"? Like ten minutes maybe, by the time the apology was written? :-) -dlj. From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 20:30:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA03910 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from donews.cts.com (donews.cts.com [192.188.72.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA03903 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 20:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fatcity.com by donews.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0v4f6Q-0000BCC; Sat, 21 Sep 96 20:21 PDT Received: by fatcity.com (Wildcat) id 48725W Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:09:08 GMT From: bruceb@fatcity.com (Bruce Bergman) Subject: Re: Smith-Barney's apology Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 19:09:07 GMT Message-Id: <843333031@fatcity.com> Organization: Fat City BBS, San Diego, California To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -> |And maybe this is a "No, Monica, just you" question, but did anyone else feel -> |that the spam really did come from Smith-Barney and that their "disgruntled -> |ex-employee" story was just so much red-faced back-pedaling when they learned -> |that they'd done something that was harming their image? -> I might have, except that after I looked again when -> I wasn't exhausted, the post was chock full of errors -> of the type typically made by 3rd graders - or sloppy -> hackers. Likewise. I originally assumed that someone DID have the audacity to add my mailing lists (three of them, thank you) to the SMB list, but two things made me suspicious: the spelling and the final disclaimer about "don't bother to send mail asking to be removed -- we're not set up for that; call xxx-xxx-xxx and ask for John Doe". Sounded exactly like the kind of thing you see when some AOL'er gets ahold of someone else's account and wants to have them deluged... FORTUNATELY, most everyone on my lists kept quiet -- the last thing I needed was three or four thousand resends due to a "please remove". ;-) Cheers, bruce From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 22:16:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA10674 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from toolbox.rutgers.edu (toolbox.rutgers.edu [128.6.134.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA10667 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from binde@localhost) by toolbox.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) id BAA14405; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:06:33 -0400 From: "Beth Binde" Message-Id: <9609220106.ZM14403@toolbox.rutgers.edu> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 01:06:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Brian J. Murrell" "interramp harbouring spammers" (Sep 21, 11:16) References: <199609211816.LAA22112@ilinx.ilinx.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.1 15feb95) To: "Brian J. Murrell" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sep 21, 11:16, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > Subject: interramp harbouring spammers > Is it just me or is there an inordinate number of spammers coming from > interramp.com?? I have received so much spam from them lately, it's like > they (Interramp) don't care about it. > > Anybody getting the same feeling, or is it just an evil plot against me?? > :-) Hmm, I got hit by them 4 times today -- but as system administrator of a rather large UNIX cluster, I sometimes think we have an irresistible attraction for spammers. With more than 32,000 users, it would take them more than 48 hours of round the clock activity at 500+ messages an hour (!!!) to get their *IMPORTANT* messages to the user population here. :-) The part that makes me nauseous is the amount of disk space, network bandwidth and machine cycles that they take doing it. Also the time that it takes me to write to various postmasters to try to get it to stop. I feel like the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dyke -- and the hole seems to be getting bigger... :-( -- Beth E. Binde, Systems Programmer, Instructional Computing Initiative Rutgers University Computing Services, Piscataway, NJ 08855-0879 USA EMAIL: binde@nbcs.rutgers.edu VOICE: 908-445-5019 FAX: 908-445-2021 PGP Fingerprint: 40 5B 70 D3 75 27 08 D6 44 58 C3 62 57 E9 CA A2 From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 21 22:45:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA12221 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LT1.f-body.org (f-body.org [204.33.245.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA12214 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (robg@localhost) by LT1.f-body.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07977 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:50:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:50:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glover cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers In-Reply-To: <9609220106.ZM14403@toolbox.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Beth Binde wrote: > Hmm, I got hit by them 4 times today -- but as system administrator of > a rather large UNIX cluster, I sometimes think we have an irresistible > attraction for spammers. With more than 32,000 users, it would take > them more than 48 hours of round the clock activity at 500+ messages > an hour (!!!) to get their *IMPORTANT* messages to the user population > here. :-) What I find interesting is that about a month after I took over the list I now run (about 550 total members), I started using restrict_post because we were getting 3-4 of the magazine spams a week, and it was really getting annoying. Since that time, I have only gotten one magazine spam (since all non-member posts bounce to the list-owner). It's almost as if the spammer was on the list. Things that make you go 'hmmm...' Rob From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 00:33:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA18058 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id AAA17974 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA03322 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA29123 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:41:23 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960920155455.00755ca4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:54:55 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:34 PM 9/19/96 EDT, E. Allen Smith wrote: > It'll happen less often (along with significant numbers of other >abuses) as soon as lists are configured to require passworded confirmation >messages to subscribe. Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good thing, and how would they work? -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` The Virtual Dog Show is back! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 01:03:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA20585 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA20575 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17360; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 02:51:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609230751.CAA17360@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: kynn@idyllmtn.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:54:55 -0700" References: <1.5.4.32.19960920155455.00755ca4@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 02:51:46 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: KB> Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good KB> thing, and how would they work? A request for subscription comes in. Instead of adding the address and sending a welcome message, a key is sent out that must be returned before the subscription becomes active. The advantages to this should be self-evident, but the main one is that it prevents forged and incorrect addresses from getting on your lists. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 02:00:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA01208 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 01:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from speedy.grolier.fr (speedy.grolier.fr [194.158.97.87]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id BAA01140 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 01:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [194.117.196.68] (ppp-196-68.neuilly.club-internet.fr [194.117.196.68]) by speedy.grolier.fr (8.7.6/MGC-960516) with SMTP id KAA00595 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:54:22 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:54:22 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: ozablock@mail.club-internet.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: ozablock@club-internet.fr (Olivier Zablocki) Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bonjour tout le monde... Just an example to complete this information : >>>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: > >KB> Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good >KB> thing, and how would they work? > >A request for subscription comes in. Instead of adding the address and >sending a welcome message, a key is sent out that must be returned before >the subscription becomes active. > >The advantages to this should be self-evident, but the main one is that it >prevents forged and incorrect addresses from getting on your lists. >-- > Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 >System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center > 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 THE french mailing lists catalog run by the University of Rennes uses that way and it's very useful. You can test it at: http://sir.univ-rennes1.fr/LISTES/ Amicalement Olivier Zablocki From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 06:01:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA26712 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jwp.bc.ca (jwp.bc.ca [205.206.196.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA26618 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from localhost (router,SLmail95 V2.1); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:43:55 Pacific Daylight Time Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from jjflash.access.digex.net (164.109.217.49::mail daemon; unverified,SLmail95 V2.1); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 05:43:51 Pacific Daylight Time Message-Id: <3.0b24.32.19691231190000.006a7e00@mail.kajor.com> X-Sender: kajor@mail.kajor.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b24 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:44:59 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:54 AM 9/23/96 +0200, Olivier Zablocki wrote: >>KB> Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a good >>KB> thing, and how would they work? >> >>A request for subscription comes in. Instead of adding the address and >>sending a welcome message, a key is sent out that must be returned before >>the subscription becomes active. >> >>The advantages to this should be self-evident, but the main one is that it >>prevents forged and incorrect addresses from getting on your lists. I've seen this used and, been subscribed to some lists that use this confirmation method. I have no idea how to implement it, though. I have one list running under Majordomo and another running on a "listserver-type" program that is, I believe, incorporated into Seattle Mail, the mail server software my host currently uses (he may be getting real Listserv). Has anyone the info that I can use to put this confirmation system into place? Another point here is that some lists can be subbed to via a web page. I have one like that. Of course, that leaves you open to having anyone subscribe bogus addresses. I am probably going to switch it to having the sub option on the web page send a message to the requester's email address asking for a confirmation reply. But this goes back to my first question. How can I put in a close-to fool-proof method? Jack Schnapper - kajor@kajor.com KWS (Kajor Web Services) - http://kajor.com Web Site Creation & Hosting From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 08:18:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA18806 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA18596 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id LAA22106 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:01:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199609231501.LAA22106@panix3.panix.com> Subject: Change on GEnie.COM impacts some mailing lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:01:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, At GEnie we have made a change which might affect some mailing lists who previously had no known problems dealing with subscribers at genie.com. Specifically, we have purged outdated addresses of subscribers who may have belonged to lists. Our gateway software HAS NOT CHANGED, so its behaviour with some lists of sometimes returning the errant letter to the list will remain. MOST lists do not see this problem, but unfortunately some will. As of this morning the outdated addresses have been totally purged from the e-mail system. If you have any questions or diatribes to deliver, please address them to me on this account (genie@panix.com) since I no longer have time to keep up with list-managers or other administrative mailing lists. Thank you for your time. -Andy Finkenstadt GEnie Postmaster -- Andrew Finkenstadt, The Printing House Ltd, Also a GEnie Sysop genie@panix.com | kahuna@supernet.net | andy@aloha.webkahuna.com A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 08:23:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA18005 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA17947 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id HAA18239; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:57:31 -0700 Received: from zax.leftbank.com(139.167.32.33) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma018205; Mon Sep 23 07:56:51 1996 Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14034; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:59:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199609231459.KAA14034@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609211816.LAA22112@ilinx.ilinx.com> from "Brian J. Murrell" at Sep 21, 96 11:16:18 am Reply-to: nmehl@leftbank.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Brian J. Murrell: > > Is it just me or is there an inordinate number of spammers coming from > interramp.com?? I have received so much spam from them lately, it's like > they (Interramp) don't care about it. > > Anybody getting the same feeling, or is it just an evil plot against me?? It's not just you. PSInet (Interramp's parent company) had a huge lay-off about six months ago. Unfortunately, included amongst the casualties were the three people who were entirely responsible for implementing and enforcing PSInet's net-abuse guidelines. Without them there to whap management upside the head every so often, inertia has re-asserted itself. At this point, Interramp can be effectively considered an out-of-control ISP -- nobody is minding the store. If you filter out their CIDR blocks at your router, you would be unlikely to lose anything of value. -n -- "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) nmehl@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 09:18:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA22133 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA22107 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA29902; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609231527.LAA29902@hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited To: Jason L Tibbitts III , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, kynn@idyllmtn.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:24:44 +4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists Reply-to: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 23 Sep 96 at 2:51, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: > > KB> Why would "passworded confirmation messages" necessarily be a > good KB> thing, and how would they work? > > A request for subscription comes in. Instead of adding the address > and sending a welcome message, a key is sent out that must be > returned before the subscription becomes active. > > The advantages to this should be self-evident, but the main one is > that it prevents forged and incorrect addresses from getting on your > lists. -- Another way of thinking of this mechanism, since the term password conjurers up all sorts of inappropriate concepts, is that MJ could have an authenication and response system for subscriptions, and perhaps other things as well, like config and info file changes. Instead of directly processing the request, MJ would generate a random, onetime authenication ticket (or cookie if you will) and transmit this to the requestor's apparent (from) e-mail address. If the address is bogus or invalid, the requestor will never see the authentication challange and the subscription or whatever will fail (or at least will never be processed). To process the request, the original e-mail address must return the authenication ticket. If the e-mail address and authentication ticket combination fails to match an entry in the pending request file then the response has no effect. Optionally an error or warning message could be sent to the list-owner. If there is a match then the request is processed normally by MJ and subsequent info and warning messages are sent to the concerned parties as in the current practice. We use a varient of this mechanism (ours only recognizies requests from a list of pre-defined e-mail addresses) for an in house web page updater using e-mail. It works fairly well. It's written in Perl5.003 as well. Regards, Jim --- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 09:50:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA01704 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phoenix.iss.net (phoenix.iss.net [204.241.60.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA01532 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cfarris@localhost) by phoenix.iss.net (8.6.13/8.6.12) id MAA12958; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:30:48 -0400 From: Chris Farris Message-Id: <199609231630.MAA12958@phoenix.iss.net> Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers To: nmehl@leftbank.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: cfarris@iss.net In-Reply-To: <199609231459.KAA14034@zax.leftbank.com> from "Nathan J. Mehl" at Sep 23, 96 10:59:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP2] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Actually Mindspring, a local atlanta (not any more :) ) ISP has bought all of interramp & pipeline. I know the guys who do net.abuse there. The problem won't persist for long. Chris > > In the immortal words of Brian J. Murrell: > > > > Is it just me or is there an inordinate number of spammers coming from > > interramp.com?? I have received so much spam from them lately, it's like > > they (Interramp) don't care about it. > > > > Anybody getting the same feeling, or is it just an evil plot against me?? > > It's not just you. > > PSInet (Interramp's parent company) had a huge lay-off about six months > ago. Unfortunately, included amongst the casualties were the three people > who were entirely responsible for implementing and enforcing PSInet's > net-abuse guidelines. Without them there to whap management upside the > head every so often, inertia has re-asserted itself. > > At this point, Interramp can be effectively considered an out-of-control > ISP -- nobody is minding the store. If you filter out their CIDR blocks > at your router, you would be unlikely to lose anything of value. > > -n > > -- > "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." > Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation > (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com > (play) nmehl@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ > -- Chris Farris | Voice: (770)395-0150 Internet Security Systems, Inc. | Fax: (770)395-1972 41 Permiter Center East | www: http://www.iss.net/ Suite 660. Atlanta, GA 30346 | Email: cfarris@iss.net From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 11:06:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA14181 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA14161 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:56:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id KAA19046; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:56:06 -0700 Received: from panix.com(198.7.0.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma019044; Mon Sep 23 10:55:35 1996 Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) id NAA08603; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:50:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199609231750.NAA08603@panix.com> Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers To: cfarris@iss.net Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199609231630.MAA12958@phoenix.iss.net> from "Chris Farris" at Sep 23, 96 12:30:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Actually Mindspring, a local atlanta (not any more :) ) ISP has bought > all of interramp & pipeline. I know the guys who do net.abuse there. The > problem won't persist for long. You saying you know the spammers or the staff at Mindspring? The problem is growing, it seems that at least one out of every 3 spams I receive comes from Interramp, that from the message ID, rather than the return addresses. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 11:54:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA18763 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA18523 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10539; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:30:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199609231830.NAA10539@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, kynn@idyllmtn.com Subject: Re: bogus subscriptions - lists on lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:24:44 +4" References: <199609231527.LAA29902@hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.34.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:30:47 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "JBB" == James B Byrne writes: JBB> On 23 Sep 96 at 2:51, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >> A request for subscription comes in. Instead of adding the address and >> sending a welcome message, a key is sent out that must be returned >> before the subscription becomes active. JBB> Another way of thinking of this mechanism, since the term password JBB> conjurers up all sorts of inappropriate concepts, Did I mention a password? JBB> is that MJ could have an authenication and response system for JBB> subscriptions, and perhaps other things as well, like config and info JBB> file changes. It does this for subscriptions (in version 1.94, which is in very late beta and being used by plenty of people). I don't see why it's needed for file changes; the current password system works just fine and any system of authentication would amount to the same thing. JBB> Instead of directly processing the request, MJ would generate a JBB> random, onetime authenication ticket (or cookie if you will) and JBB> transmit this to the requestor's apparent (from) e-mail address. Amazingly, that's exactly what it does. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 13:22:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA00873 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA00804 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoom.bga.com (zoom.realtime.net [205.238.128.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA05233 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 07:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.251.33.29] (jake-5m.ip.realtime.net [204.251.33.29]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA01498 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:36:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 09:36:04 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: jsnyder@bga.com (John R. Snyder) Subject: Michael Tratz Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Someone named "Michael Tratz" just tried to subscribe to two closed, unadvertised lists I manage on pobox.com. Interesting user id. The lists are not related, and he tried to subscribe to both the standard and digest forms of the lists. I suspect a spam in the making. John Snyder jsnyder@pobox.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 14:48:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA15775 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from junior.apk.net (junior.apk.net [206.183.12.46]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA15448 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.183.8.48] (pm2-15.apk.net [206.183.8.47]) by junior.apk.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11362 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:27:36 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd) Subject: Rampant paranoia Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I initially joined this list because it was a good forum for list owners to share ideas on filters, keeping lists on topic, publicizing, etc. Within the last few months, however, this list has become a sounding board for what appears to be a small minority of people, worried about Spam . Folks. Lighten up. I suspect the majority of 'spammers' you see sending 'lists' commands, or subscribing to your lists uninvited are no more than 'net newbies, exploring what's out there. I run a fairly large, public, but read-only mailing list. I used to read all the copies of spam that were forwarded to the list. I would see some of these people subscribe to my list, some wouldn't, but other than that dreaded magazine offer which pops up every few weeks, and one or two other isolated posts, I haven't been innundated with any sort of spam. Unless you count the spam from this list. There are a certain amount of risks that come with maintaining a mailing list, whether it's closed or open, public or private. We are part of the internet's public domain (whether you like it or not). It's like putting your business address in the phone book - you need it there, or your customers won't know you exist, but you can't possibly expect not to get junk mail at some time or another. I am sure some of you have kill files and filters half a mile long, trying to prevent any possible evil creeping into your lists. For me, it's not necessary. The unwanted posts, bounce or get ignored. The invalid addresses, get unsubscribed. Otherwise, I enjoy my list, instead of obsessing over who might be trying to exploit it. This List-Managers list has turned into a blatent display of obsessive paranoia, and it's not interesting anymore. I spend 10 times longer filtering out the garbage from here than any potential spammer. As soon as I figure out whether this is the correct address I subscribed under, I'll be unsubscribing. It's been a fun ride all, but you really do need to lighten up. -- "We should rejoice that a chocolate dessert | Monee C. Kidd can bring so much innocent pleasure, even ^~~~ | mck@choco.com when a little wickedness is insinuated." / \ | send 'info choco' to ~ Marcel Desaulniers (___) | majordomo@apk.net From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 15:32:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA23568 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA23552 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14601; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:23:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199609232223.PAA14601@weber.ucsd.edu> To: mkidd@apk.net CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Monee C. Kidd's message of Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:27:36 -0400 Subject: Rampant paranoia Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Monee, I'm glad that you have found a system that works for you. But I will point out that simply because you are able and/or willing to tolerate a situation does not mean that everyone else can...or that the situation you experience is similar to anyone else's. I run a medium-sized mailing list that seems to be on everyone's spam list (my list has been around for nearly 6 years and is in all the lists of lists by this point). SOmetimes, as much as 25% of list traffic can be spam or about spam (yet another subscriber trying to help by commenting on the spam). Since my list is composed of people who, like me, have chronic fatigue or other health problems making it difficult to keep up with mail, as well as immune system symptoms of spaciness or "mind fog" or dyslexia that make very simple things excrutiatingly difficult, even a small increase in "off-topic" traffic leads to scores of unsubscribes. My list is vital to many people and I do what I can to keep my subscribers around. I too would like to think that most spam comes from net-newbies. Some clearly does. But there is a trend to commericialize the internet and more and more spams these days come from people who see the net as their personal business oppurtunity. IMHO, this trend threatens the very integrity of the internet infrastructure. Add to that the spamming by non-newbies who see the net as their personal playground and the probelm increases. This is not to suggest that you shouldn't complain about the quantity of posts here about spam or the ever-ending debates on minute elements related to the general topic (thank god that first amendment flame war is dying down!). But dismissing our very real concerns as "paranoia," or implying that we don't know how to judge a serious issue properly, is way out of line. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 16:16:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA26603 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spitfire.cs.utah.edu (spitfire.cs.utah.edu [155.99.208.57]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA26506 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199609232254.PAA26506@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by spitfire.cs.utah.edu (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA112429264; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:54:24 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:54:24 -0600 From: Mark J Bradakis To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Quick anti-spam thought? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Okay, here's an idea that may or may not prove to have any merit. Suppose folks here in the US of A started sending their US senators and representatives packages, and sent them C.O.D. Not for any great amount of money, but for what ever the thing cost to send or so, on the order of 5 to 10 dollars. There is, of course, no guarantee that they would be accepted and paid for by the intended recipient. But if someone at the Congresscritter's office did ante up the petty cash for it, they would find, in addition to some hardcopy of a selection of the latest get rich quick, etc. offerings, a letter something like: Dear XXX: Now that you've seen the contents, you probably feel a bit perturbed that you actually paid good money for this. Just a small amount, of course, but enough to make a point. Would you have paid for this if you had known what it contained? Every day, thousands of folks around the country (around the world actually, but that isn't your district) have to pay for such advertising out of their own pockets. Unlike paper mail, where the sender of such junk has to pay the Postal Service to deliver the message, electronic mail puts little cost on the sender, forcing the unwilling target, as well as dozens of sites along the way, to cover the expense of transmitting the message over the internet. There is no option to reject such solicitations until the damage has already been done, and the offending material is placed in the recipient's mail box. My request is straightforward: install and enforce similar regulations as those pertaining to sending junk faxes to the sending of unsolicited, commercial email. The advertisers should be the ones who carry the cost of this sort of advertising, not the unwilling recipient. Thank you for your consideration of this matter, Sincerely, Concerned net citizen. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 18:46:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA20758 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LT1.f-body.org (f-body.org [204.33.245.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA20684 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (robg@localhost) by LT1.f-body.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA07210; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:51:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:51:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glover To: Mark J Bradakis cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Quick anti-spam thought? In-Reply-To: <199609232254.PAA26506@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Okay, here's an idea that may or may not prove to have any merit. [snip] > Now that you've seen the contents, you probably feel a bit perturbed that you > actually paid good money for this. Just a small amount, of course, but enough > to make a point. Would you have paid for this if you had known what it > contained? I LIKE IT! Rob From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 21:22:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA00679 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA00585 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts18-13.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.138.173]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA01371; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609240335.XAA01371@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Robert Glover From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Quick anti-spam thought? Cc: Mark J Bradakis , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:51 PM 23/09/96 -0700, Robert Glover wrote: > >> Okay, here's an idea that may or may not prove to have any merit. > >[snip] > >> Now that you've seen the contents, you probably feel a bit perturbed that you >> actually paid good money for this. Just a small amount, of course, but enough >> to make a point. Would you have paid for this if you had known what it >> contained? > >I LIKE IT! > >Rob Oh, sure: let's all just rush out and encourage the US Congress to think they ought to be regulating the net! -dlj. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 23:07:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA10870 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA10863 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA27787; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:48:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 00:48:31 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak Reply-To: Paul E Kayak To: "Monee C. Kidd" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Rampant parano In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Spam: for a doubter' diet? Here is a joke: When Descartes walked into a pub one afternoon, the barkeeper said, "Hi Rene. The usual?" Mr (Dr?) Descartes gazed at the far wall a long moment. Then he finally replied, "Well, actually. Umm, I think not." At that moment he was p(r)oofed away. Was never again seen. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 23:12:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11174 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id WAA11139 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.oulu.fi (lists.oulu.fi [130.231.241.85]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA27163 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mhotti@localhost) by lists.oulu.fi (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA14547 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:59:01 +0300 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:59:00 +0300 (EET DST) From: Marko Hotti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: SPAM-ALERTS mailing list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Monee complained about the amount of spam discussion in this forum. I myself don't object to this kind of threads on LIST-MANAGERS but started the SPAM-ALERTS mailing list some weeks ago. To zubscribe, send email to and in the body of the message write: subscribe spam-alerts end Best wishes, Marko Marko Hotti WWW: http://www.lists.oulu.fi/~mhotti/ System Administrator Tel: +358 (0)40 552 8415 (work) University of Oulu, FINLAND +358 (0)8 530 4268 (home) From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 23:16:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11147 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id WAA11120 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA23706 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id PAA13071; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:26:05 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA21920; Mon, 23 Sep 96 15:26:24 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 96 15:26:24 -0700 Message-Id: <9609232226.AA21920@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Rampant paranoia Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd) >the last few months, however, this list has become a sounding board for >what appears to be a small minority of people, worried about Spam . >unsubscribing. It's been a fun ride all, but you really do need to lighten >up. #1: Paranoia is no good unless it is rampant. #2: Just because I'm parinoid doesn't mean that they are not out to get me. #3: I agree. Although spamming is still a legitimate list managers topic, it can be over-done. Perhaps we should make a separate list for spam-event traders. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 23:22:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11219 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id WAA11189 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.jwp.bc.ca (jwp.bc.ca [205.206.196.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA15843 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from localhost (router,SLmail95 V2.1); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:37:04 Pacific Daylight Time Received: by mail.jwp.bc.ca from jjflash.access.digex.net (164.109.217.27::mail daemon; unverified,SLmail95 V2.1); Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:37:02 Pacific Daylight Time Message-Id: <3.0b24.32.19691231190000.006c471c@mail.kajor.com> X-Sender: kajor@mail.kajor.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0b24 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:38:01 -0400 To: jsnyder@bga.com (John R. Snyder) From: Jack Schnapper Subject: Re: Michael Tratz Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:36 AM 9/22/96 -0500, John R. Snyder wrote: >Someone named "Michael Tratz" just tried to subscribe >to two closed, unadvertised lists I manage on pobox.com. Interesting user >id. The lists are not related, and he tried to subscribe to both the >standard and digest forms of the lists. I suspect a spam in the making. I got the same subscriber on two lists. Should we remove him as a pre-emptory(sp?) strike against a spam? Jack Schnapper - kajor@kajor.com KWS (Kajor Web Services) - http://kajor.com Web Site Creation & Hosting From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 23 23:28:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11222 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id WAA11200 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 22:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from answerman.mindspring.com (answerman.mindspring.com [204.180.128.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA17114 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tracey.mindspring.com (user-168-121-55-2.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.55.2]) by answerman.mindspring.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA02981 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 1996 21:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19960924011201.0069439c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: tracey@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 20:12:01 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Tracey McCartney Subject: Re: Michael Tratz Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:36 AM 9/22/96 -0500, John R. Snyder wrote: >Someone named "Michael Tratz" just tried to subscribe >to two closed, unadvertised lists I manage on pobox.com. Interesting user >id. The lists are not related, and he tried to subscribe to both the >standard and digest forms of the lists. I suspect a spam in the making. > Same thing happened to my pobox list, except that he did manage to subscribe to my digest (which I didn't know had even been set up) briefly. He unsubscribed the same day. My digest is now closed, obviously. : ) Actually, I'm relieved that he has done this to other folks, because my lists are kind of sensitive. I'd prefer a spammer to a *spy*... : ) Tracey MCartney Enforcement Coordinator Central Alabama Fair Housing Center From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 01:18:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA18712 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.interramp.com (smtp1.interramp.com [38.8.45.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id BAA18695 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [38.11.195.171] by smtp1.interramp.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1.3-PSI-irsmtp) id EAA27647; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:08:20 -0400 X-Sender: us014319@pop3.interramp.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199609231750.NAA08603@panix.com> References: <199609231630.MAA12958@phoenix.iss.net> from "Chris Farris" at Sep 23, 96 12:30:48 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 23:21:40 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The problem is growing, it seems that at least one out of every 3 >spams I receive comes from Interramp, that from the message ID, rather >than the return addresses. Also because of the transition from PSI (Interramp and Pipeline) to Mindspring, Interramp is effectively non responsive at this point to any complaints. I have received tons of junk from interramp accounts lately but they are not doing anything about it. Additionally service is rapidly deteriorating as well (servers going up and down constantly). The other place I have been seeing tons of junk has been coming from Juno. A lot of spammers use it to remail. A few use fake id's from Juno. Juno will not take direct responsibility as a remailer and asks that you forward a complaint to the appropriate internet provider. Lately Juno has more spams lately than Interramp (at least it seems that way to me!) Mark Taylor Editor, Online Fraud Newsletter (monthly) Fraud News Report (weekly) Consumer Alert News (weekly) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 01:46:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA20940 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id BAA20924 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 38; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:40:37 PDT Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 01:40:33 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: mtaylor@interramp.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A8D41.D7A308FE.38@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: interramp harbouring spammers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"mtaylor@interramp.com" 24-SEP-1996 01:27:52.00 > Subj: Re: interramp harbouring spammers > > >The problem is growing, it seems that at least one out of every 3 > >spams I receive comes from Interramp, that from the message ID, rather > >than the return addresses. > > Also because of the transition from PSI (Interramp and Pipeline) to > Mindspring, Interramp is effectively non responsive at this point to any > complaints. I have received tons of junk from interramp accounts lately > but they are not doing anything about it. Additionally service is rapidly > deteriorating as well (servers going up and down constantly). > > The other place I have been seeing tons of junk has been coming from Juno. > A lot of spammers use it to remail. A few use fake id's from Juno. Juno > will not take direct responsibility as a remailer and asks that you forward > a complaint to the appropriate internet provider. Lately Juno has more > spams lately than Interramp (at least it seems that way to me!) > > Mark, This makes sense, in a perverse sort of way: as I understand it, juno GIVES free email access to it's "subscribers", as then get advertisements thownr at them every few seconds, or so I'm told. I guess that they figure turn about is fair play... > > Mark Taylor > Editor, > Online Fraud Newsletter (monthly) > Fraud News Report (weekly) > Consumer Alert News (weekly) > > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 04:46:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA01657 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from io.org (io.org [198.133.36.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id EAA01649 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 04:45:41 -0700 (PDT) From: noise@io.org Received: from [199.166.239.224] (herald.net4.io.org [199.166.239.224]) by io.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA18043; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:45:52 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:46:17 -0500 To: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re:Rampant paranoia Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yeah folks, I think he has a bit of a point. Can you say 'witch-hunt'? At 5:27 PM on 9/23/96, Monee C. Kidd wrote: >I initially joined this list because it was a good forum for list owners to >share ideas on filters, keeping lists on topic, publicizing, etc. Within >the last few months, however, this list has become a sounding board for >what appears to be a small minority of people, worried about Spam . > > snip > >There are a certain amount of risks that come with maintaining a mailing >list, whether it's closed or open, public or private. We are part of the >internet's public domain (whether you like it or not). It's like putting >your business address in the phone book - you need it there, or your >customers won't know you exist, but you can't possibly expect not to get >junk mail at some time or another. I am sure some of you have kill files >and filters half a mile long, trying to prevent any possible evil creeping >into your lists. For me, it's not necessary. The unwanted posts, bounce or >get ignored. The invalid addresses, get unsubscribed. Otherwise, I enjoy my >list, instead of obsessing over who might be trying to exploit it. This >List-Managers list has turned into a blatent display of obsessive paranoia, >and it's not interesting anymore. I spend 10 times longer filtering out the >garbage from here than any potential spammer. As soon as I figure out >whether this is the correct address I subscribed under, I'll be >unsubscribing. It's been a fun ride all, but you really do need to lighten >up. *********************************************************** noise noise@io.org http://www.io.org/~noise/ *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 10:58:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA08791 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.oulu.fi (lists.oulu.fi [130.231.241.85]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA08744 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mhotti@localhost) by lists.oulu.fi (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA27030 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:27:48 +0300 Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:27:48 +0300 (EET DST) From: Marko Hotti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: SPAM-ALERTS mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Adam Horwitz wrote: > There is no list called spam-alerts, but just 'alerts' looks like what > you meant. Whoops! :-/ How stupid of me... Shouldn't be working when tired.. I have been informed of SPAM-L at PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM (Listserv) which is devoted in discussion on spam prevention. The difference (as far as I see it) between the two lists is that ALERTS at LISTS.OULU.FI focuses on reports of bogus subscriptions etc. --Marko Marko Hotti WWW: http://www.lists.oulu.fi/~mhotti/ System Administrator Tel: +358 (0)40 552 8415 (work) University of Oulu, FINLAND +358 (0)8 530 4268 (home) From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 18:31:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA12581 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp6.netcom.com [163.179.3.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA12555 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA26186; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:06:51 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0v5iNh-000gd9C; Tue, 24 Sep 96 18:03 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Quick anti-spam thought? To: dlj@pobox.com (David Lloyd-Jones) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: robg@f-body.org, mjb@spitfire.cs.utah.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199609240335.XAA01371@mail.inforamp.net> from "David Lloyd-Jones" at Sep 23, 96 11:35:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, David Lloyd-Jones is alleged to have written => Oh, sure: let's all just rush out and encourage the US Congress to think => they ought to be regulating the net! Given how they handled junk-FAXes, I'm all for their applying some rational laws to the problem. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | It's time to taste what you most fear james@sagarmatha.com (home) | Right Guard will not help you here. | Brace yourself, my dear! | It's a holiday in Cambodia! From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 24 18:50:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA13163 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shooter.bluemarble.net (shooter.bluemarble.net [199.18.207.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA13146 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (edit@localhost) by shooter.bluemarble.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19348 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:31:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:31:18 -0500 (EST) From: Paul E Kayak Reply-To: Paul E Kayak To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Whether list command legitimate Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yet an inexperienced person, I have been reading List-Managers months. The best technical comments, it seems to me, have been during the spam debate. I hope this topic does not disappear all at once. In this area of problem, my understanding is, we have types (#1) junk-mail advertizing, and (2) a vandalistic "litter" kind of material. (Am uncertain about all this and hoping for comment.) A major reason for problem is the following: The perpetrators tend to have made themselves unreachable. A significant amount of my accounts (if I am now manager, not apprentice) are not active or valid. Mail for them I normally bounce to sender. But in the case of this authorless spam, it winds up in my lap. Oh, I'll look a mess! Some of us have lists which are sensitive. Many are concerned about having a reasonable amount of privacy in these times. - Signed, Paul. Spam may not be just a matter of bad taste. Say for a vegetarian. We used to give sheep their medicine, by prying their mouths open. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 25 02:02:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA10316 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id BAA09088 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 01:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from navigator.smart.net (navigator.smart.net [206.27.242.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA19491 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 07:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.27.243.213] (everett.smart.net [206.27.243.213]) by navigator.smart.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA06122; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 10:29:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199609241429.KAA06122@navigator.smart.net> Subject: Re: Rampant paranoia Date: Tue, 24 Sep 96 10:31:12 -0400 x-sender: everett@smarty.smart.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Ray Everett-Church To: cc: "Alan Deikman" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >#3: I agree. Although spamming is still a legitimate list managers >topic, it can be over-done. Perhaps we should make a separate list >for spam-event traders. A very good and active list for Spam-related discussion is: SPAM-L@eva.dc.lsoft.com To subscribe, send mail to: LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM saying: subscribe SPAM-L Firstname Lastname Enjoy! -Ray -- ------ Ray Everett-Church http://www.everett.org/~everett Geo. Washington U. Law, Class of 1997. But, this mail isn't legal advice. Opinion(RBE-C) != Opinion(clients(RBE-C)) (C)1996 Ray Everett-Church. *** Taxation without representation - just a thing of the past? *** *** Guess again... Welcome to Washington, DC - the last colony. *** From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 25 09:24:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA18399 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zoom.bga.com (zoom.realtime.net [205.238.128.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA18380 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [204.181.160.16] (jake-7h.ip.realtime.net [204.251.33.88]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09922 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:06:48 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:06:48 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: jsnyder@bga.com (John R. Snyder) Subject: The problem with Michael Tratz (mailing@esosoft.com) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: "Michael Tratz (The real one)" >To: >Cc: >Subject: The problem with Michael Tratz (mailing@esosoft.com) >Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:56:58 +0200 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >MIME-Version: 1.0 > >Hello Listmanagers, > >First our company wants to apologize for the spammer which has caused very >big problems on your lists. > >Here is the real story about this person: > >Our company has canceled the account of this spammer!! He has used the name >from one of our support team. (And this I am.) To spam out addresses. Our >postmaster has noticed this, because the mailbox filled up with emails and >it seems that he was unable to get off from a list. And then we have taken >a closer look at our server logs and we have seen that he has posted many >emails to some Majordomo servers. He has also done such a thing earlier >before, but he has send out some spam mail to some Internet users. We have >got complaints about him. We have warned him and we thought that he will >never do such a thing again. >But this was a false thought therefore we have canceled his mail account at >once! > >His real name is: Andreas Worlov. I don't know which email address he use >now. > >He has asked several questions and then he has thought: I can use his name >to spam out addresses..... > >I can't understand this. But our company will cancel every account >immediately, if we see that someone is doing such things. We will never >warn someone again and give him a second chance. > >Our company apologizes for this user again. I hope you can understand it. >Can you post this message to this listmanagers list, too? Or do you know, >how I can do it? > >Regards and sorry again > >Michael Tratz >Esosoft Support From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 25 11:51:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA04644 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA04584 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 11:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9WCJPYTFQ8Y53G5@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:59 EDT Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:59 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Stop Spammers Today! To: PhneCards@aol.com Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01I9WCJPYTFQ8Y53G5@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"PhneCards@aol.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com",IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone know anything about this idiot? The entire cypherpunks list can't exactly be held liable for someone forwarding it... -Allen From: IN%"PhneCards@aol.com" 25-SEP-1996 13:54:38.41 To: IN%"owner-cypherpunks@toad.com", IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com" CC: Subj: Stop Spammers Today! Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01I9WCDIX1AO8WWMZN@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 13:54 EDT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA16027 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 05:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA16022; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 05:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA13172; Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:53:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 08:53:25 -0400 From: PhneCards@aol.com Subject: Stop Spammers Today! Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com To: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com, cypherpunks@toad.com Message-id: <960925085324_292805914@emout19.mail.aol.com> X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH Precedence: bulk Dear cypherpunks; In the last few days I have received numerous email coming from you but with fake return addresses from messages posted on newsgroups. I must have been targeted because I am a bulk emailer. Letting you know now that I am a legitimate bulk emailer compiling my list with the permission of each account holder. If this barrage of email does not cease immediately, I will be forced to take legal and maybe not so legal actions to defend myself. If you would like to discuss this further, please call me at 407-438-8892. Tim =================================================== >Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com >To: cypherpunks@toad.com > >Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> At 2:10 AM 9/24/96, hallam@vesuvius.ai.mit.edu wrote: >> >> >like Markof are somewhat more responsible. This is not going to stop me >> >from producing an op-ed piece linkiing the net libertarians to >assasination >> >politics unless I hear a few more repudiations of Bell's ideas. If you >> >don't very clearly reject his murderous ideas you are going to regret it >> >just as the left regreted having the USSR or the RAF associated with them. >> >> I for one don't respond well to extortion threats, so write your damned >article. > >Seconded. > >You know, the real problem with the average blackmailer is that they >rarely give you the offer as a legal document - if we fulfil our side of >the bargain, how can we be sure he fulfils his, and doesn't change his >mind next time someone half agrees with a pro >AP/Legal-blackmail/Tax-haven/Libertarian-state/freedom-of-speech/whatever >post? We obviously need some sort of legal contract to solve this >problem, but no, that's not possible in most countries, is it?. How >convenient. Till next time Phill ... > >Gary >-- >"Of course the US Constitution isn't perfect; but it's a lot better >than what we have now." -- Unknown. > >pub 1024/C001D00D 1996/01/22 Gary Howland >Key fingerprint = 0C FB 60 61 4D 3B 24 7D 1C 89 1D BE 1F EE 09 06 > > >----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- >From cypherpunks-errors@toad.com Tue Sep 24 17:53:36 1996 >Return-Path: cypherpunks-errors@toad.com >Received: from mailhub.MyMail.Com (mailhub.mymail.com [206.247.118.1]) by >emin27.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA29223 for >; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:53:34 -0400 >Received: from toad.com by mailhub.MyMail.Com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AA24368; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:53:31 -0600 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA13291 for >cypherpunks-outgoing; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:57:24 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from smokey.systemics.com (smokey.systemics.com [193.67.124.65]) by >toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA13281 for ; Tue, >24 Sep 1996 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from kampai.systemics.com >(fLjlj5tpYpTi4i0Poa58tvhk9K+M7mOF@internal-mail.systemics.com >[193.67.124.74]) by smokey.systemics.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id >PAA12601; Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:57:08 +0200 >Message-Id: <3247E8DF.FF6D5DF@systemics.com> >Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:57:51 +0200 >From: Gary Howland >Organization: Systemics Ltd. >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.1.0-RELEASE i386) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: cypherpunks@toad.com >Subject: Re: Hallam-Baker demands more repudiations or he'll write! >References: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com >Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 26 14:16:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA06186 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA06172 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.5/8.7.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id RAA09860; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:05:15 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Encrypted lists and ease of use Date: 26 Sep 1996 17:05:15 -0400 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 35 Message-ID: <52er6b$9k1@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm considering sending someone off to work on a project, but wanted to sanity-check the idea and see if someone already has something similar. Recently I've been involved in a number of small (30 people or less) mailing lists which occasionally use PGP for encrypted mail. The hassle comes when one is encrypting a message to the list. With people coming and going, remembering who is on what list is impossible. We're always having to go back and re-send to someone who was left off of the encryption list. What I propose to do is have a second list, list-encrypted@host, for every list@host. Any mail sent to the list simply goes out in plaintext. List-encrypted is encrypted for everyone on list, then sent to the list with appropriate additional headers. To secure the mail as it travels from the sender to list-encrypted, we want to establish a public key for list-encrypted. All mail to the list *must* travel with the public key or be rejected. When mail arrives at list-encrypted, a deamon will process it. The daemon knows the secret key for -encrypted, and has a list of who is on what list. The daemon strips the -encrypted address, encrypts the message for all on the list. If there are other people on the To: or Cc: fields, the deamon will encrypt for them as well. If any of this fails, the message is sent to as many as possible and notification failure goes back to the original sender indicating who the failures were. The daemon then forwards it to the list real list. It preserves the From: field, but changs `To: list-encrypted' into simply `To: list.' Comments? Generally useful? Beta volunteers? :-) -- "Yea, the heavens shall open and the NP-complete solution given forth. ATT executives shall give birth to two-headed operating systems, and copyrights shall be expunged. The voice of the GNU shall be heard, but the faithless will be without transceivers." -- me From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 26 17:18:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA19579 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.rpa.net (www.rpa.net [205.232.76.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA19570 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from #revmah (pm1-ip39.rpa.net [205.232.76.39]) by www.rpa.net (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA24172 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:12:51 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960927001539.006acd4c@mail.rpa.net> X-Sender: revmah@mail.rpa.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:15:39 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Rev. M. Adrienne Hawthorne, CNM" Subject: archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My ISP runs v1.93. When issuing the index command, it returns with a '0'. Apparently no archives are being created. Any suggestions? Thanks Adrienne Rev. M. Adrienne Hawthorne, President, New Beginnings revmah@newlifebegins.com - http://newlifebegins.com Listowner:Women-in-Ministry; Aega-Fellow; Netmin 2 Cor 5:17 From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 26 18:02:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA22202 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA22195 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id RAA21779; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <324B2575.34A6@postmodern.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 17:55:08 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rev. M. Adrienne Hawthorne, CNM" CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: archives References: <2.2.32.19960927001539.006acd4c@mail.rpa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rev. M. Adrienne Hawthorne, CNM wrote: > My ISP runs v1.93. When issuing the index command, it returns with a '0'. > Apparently no archives are being created. Any suggestions? Presumably you are referring to Majordomo; please address Majordomo-specific questions to the Majordomo-Users mailing list (information: majordomo-users-request@greatcircle.com). List-Managers is for general policy and list-management-related discussion, rather than software-specific issues. Thanks! -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 26 21:01:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA02478 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:48:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA02471 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA22484 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:49:05 -0700 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 26 Sep 96 20:10:10 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: ala@hustle.rahul.net Subject: Re: *** Block email (mol09246) From: ala@LunaCity.com (alyson l abramowitz) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 26 Sep 96 20:06:59 PDT In-Reply-To: <199609270140.VAA19352@nr1.resultnet.com> Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I received the following message today. I'm not recognizing the ISA. I'd certainly hope that an official organization of internet providers would be savier then this about junk email (tho it is polite). Thoughts? Best, Alyson ________________________________________ Resampling Stats writes: > Hello - The Interactive Services Association (the official organization > of major internet service providers) has proposed that firms sending out > email announcements should ask first whether people want to receive them. > By replying to this message with the word "remove" at the beginning of > any line, you can avoid receiving such announcements from us (and from > others, too, if a central clearinghouse is developed). > > The New Statistics > PO Box 10913 > Arlington, VA 22210 > mroberts@resultnet.com From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 03:03:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA01765 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from egr.uri.edu ([131.128.50.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id CAA01751 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 02:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by egr.uri.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA15713; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 05:50:57 GMT From: noah@egr.uri.edu (Noah White) Message-Id: <9609270550.AA15713@egr.uri.edu> Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #204 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 05:50:50 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199609240800.BAA18335@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Sep 24, 96 01:00:46 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > #3: I agree. Although spamming is still a legitimate list managers > topic, it can be over-done. Perhaps we should make a separate list > for spam-event traders. > There already is a spam-l list. I have since forgotten the ListServ address though :-(. -Noah From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 07:24:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA19221 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcom10.netcom.com (netcom10.netcom.com [192.100.81.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA19203 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id OAA16105; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:12:40 GMT Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:12:39 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon X-Sender: grafolog@netcom10 To: Noah White cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V5 #204 In-Reply-To: <9609270550.AA15713@egr.uri.edu> Message-ID: x-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Noah White wrote: > > Perhaps we should make a separate list for spam-event traders. > There already is a spam-l list. I have since forgotten the ListServ > address though :-(. Spam-L@Peach.Ease.Lsoft.com xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com Patience is a virtue, Virtue is a grace. Grace is a little girl, Who did not wash her face. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 08:25:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23797 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA23730 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (8.7.5/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA26403; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199609271516.LAA26403@hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited To: mroberts@resultnet.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:14:23 +4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ISA Reply-to: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Hello - The Interactive Services Association (the official > > organization of major internet service providers) has proposed > > that firms sending out email announcements should ask first > > whether people want to receive them. By replying to this message > > with the word "remove" at the beginning of any line, you can avoid > > receiving such announcements from us (and from others, too, if a > > central clearinghouse is developed). > > > > The New Statistics > > PO Box 10913 > > Arlington, VA 22210 > > mroberts@resultnet.com It would of much greater service and use if the ISA would provide a single point of reference wherein a person could confidentially register his/her desire to not be bothered by any of the ISA membership. While the intent may be to diffuse anger and irritation, the thought of forcing someone to respond to an unsolicted communication by threatening them with continuing it unless they take some action in each and every case can scarcely be believed to build good will. Add to that the is the implication that in the very act of responding, the individual identifies him/her self as a successfull target of a mass mailing from God knows what source or form. Hardly a way to make friends and influence people, wouldn't you say? Regards, Jim Byrne --- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 10:16:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA09651 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.metron.com (metron.com [204.182.31.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA09622 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lou@localhost) by orange.metron.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id KAA11921.; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Lou Katz Message-Id: <199609271714.KAA11921@orange.metron.com> Subject: Encrypted lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199609270800.BAA24620@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Sep 27, 96 01:00:44 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: application/X-pgp-message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In reply to: Date: 26 Sep 1996 17:05:15 -0400 From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Subject: Encrypted lists and ease of use This sounds interesting and useful to me. I run a few private lists on my own BSDI machine using Majordomo, and might be able to participate in beta testing. - -=[Lou Katz]=- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMkwLXFhThCNvOjy5AQH/egP+MNOLS5R4f6mnjmmEmGuPa5oO6qFpVQmm 3GhxQB26rB3LMos//vumgtAtftqezWD3C2rw81Ab5jnBfg/qa1T5CwUy5Giqtcyh IhDVij+ifwowcDqAG6IURbEqkJmXCq2EOAPRbXAggP8Gb635b0/qYdqLLTCVVmGP ZbJ80I6VeMY= =J163 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 13:31:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA28557 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA28387 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:18:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (neslon@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7.6/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id QAA14594; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Wilson Smith Reply-To: Wilson Smith To: eraab@IOS.COM cc: postmaster@IOS.COM, postmaster@idt.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:04:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Wilson Smith To: postmaster@idt.net Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? Hi, I'm list manager for the MONEY Daily, a daily electronic mailing list sent to close to 30,000 subscribers, each of whom has specifically requested the Daily by sending a "subscribe" message to our list processor software. Recently mail sent to IDT subscribers has started to bounce with the message "SORRY, TOO MANY RECIPIENTS (10 MAX)." Do you realize that your system is configured this way? Is this intentional? You are the only ISP I'm aware that's set up this way. Thanks for your prompt response! Wilson Wilson Smith, MONEY Technology ------------------ Since I sent that message, we've started getting bounces saying that *20* is the maximum; I REALLY don't think this is the way to handle this, although I can't even be sure that this is intentional and not just a continuing misconfiguration at IDT: no one replied to my earlier message. Please let me know how you plan to accomodate those customers of yours who want to receive the Money Daily. Thank you, Wilson Smith, MONEY Technology From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 14:16:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA01778 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from s1000e.webcom.com (s1000e.webcom.com [206.2.192.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA01757 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:01:32 -0700 (PDT) From: leavitt@webcom.com Received: from s1000e ([206.2.192.35]) by s1000e.webcom.com (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA20931 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:05:39 -0700 Received: by s1000e (SMI-8.6) id OAA20836; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:05:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199609272105.OAA20836@s1000e> Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is thrilling. Everyone who runs a list can expect to get hordes of TS calls asking what the hell this means. Thomas Forwarded message: > From list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Sep 27 14:00 PDT 1996 > Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) > From: Wilson Smith > Reply-To: Wilson Smith > To: eraab@IOS.COM > cc: postmaster@IOS.COM, postmaster@idt.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? (fwd) > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM > Precedence: bulk > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Length: 1194 > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:04:20 -0400 (EDT) > From: Wilson Smith > To: postmaster@idt.net > Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? > > Hi, > > I'm list manager for the MONEY Daily, a daily electronic mailing > list sent to close to 30,000 subscribers, each of whom has > specifically requested the Daily by sending a "subscribe" > message to our list processor software. > > Recently mail sent to IDT subscribers has started to bounce with > the message "SORRY, TOO MANY RECIPIENTS (10 MAX)." > > Do you realize that your system is configured this way? Is this > intentional? You are the only ISP I'm aware that's set up this > way. > > Thanks for your prompt response! > > Wilson > > Wilson Smith, MONEY Technology > > > ------------------ > > Since I sent that message, we've started getting bounces saying > that *20* is the maximum; I REALLY don't think this is the way to > handle this, although I can't even be sure that this is > intentional and not just a continuing misconfiguration at IDT: no > one replied to my earlier message. > > Please let me know how you plan to accomodate those customers > of yours who want to receive the Money Daily. > > Thank you, > > Wilson Smith, MONEY Technology > > > > -- Web Communications (sm) Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101 Vice President Web Communications Home Page From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 18:34:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA25421 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from donews.cts.com (donews.cts.com [192.188.72.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA25414 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fatcity.com by donews.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0v6oBN-0000IuC; Fri, 27 Sep 96 18:27 PDT Received: by fatcity.com (Wildcat) id 30463W Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:31:17 GMT From: bruceb@fatcity.com (Bruce Bergman) Subject: Limit of 10 recipients? (fwd) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:31:06 GMT Message-Id: <843838266@fatcity.com> Organization: Fat City BBS, San Diego, California To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -> Recently mail sent to IDT subscribers has started to bounce with -> the message "SORRY, TOO MANY RECIPIENTS (10 MAX)." -> Since I sent that message, we've started getting bounces saying -> that *20* is the maximum; I REALLY don't think this is the way to -> handle this, although I can't even be sure that this is -> intentional and not just a continuing misconfiguration at IDT: no -> one replied to my earlier message. And of course, you just KNOW that IDT would complain, bitch and moan about how everyone else is against them if we all started putting that in OUR mailers. Sigh. Either someone in the admin at IDT is clueless, or IDT isn't interested in getting along with the rest of the net.community. Maybe someone should remind IDT that this kind of action is why the attacks on Panix started (and continue)... Having a bad Friday. ;-) bruce From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 27 21:16:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA06974 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA06967 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.6.6.Beta9) id AAA02623; Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:07:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199609280407.AAA02623@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: Limit of 10 recipients? (fwd) To: bruceb@fatcity.com (Bruce Bergman) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <843838266@fatcity.com> from "Bruce Bergman" at Sep 27, 96 03:31:06 pm Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > -> Recently mail sent to IDT subscribers has started to bounce with > -> the message "SORRY, TOO MANY RECIPIENTS (10 MAX)." > > -> Since I sent that message, we've started getting bounces saying > -> that *20* is the maximum; I REALLY don't think this is the way to > -> handle this, although I can't even be sure that this is > -> intentional and not just a continuing misconfiguration at IDT: no > -> one replied to my earlier message. > > And of course, you just KNOW that IDT would complain, bitch and moan > about how everyone else is against them if we all started putting that > in OUR mailers. > > Sigh. Either someone in the admin at IDT is clueless, or IDT isn't > interested in getting along with the rest of the net.community. It's probably a well-intentioned effort to fend off spam, but it's hard to pick the "right number". Not only that, it won't work because spammers will just package their mail into smaller numbers of recipients as soon as they figure it out. I agree: sigh. > > Maybe someone should remind IDT that this kind of action is why the > attacks on Panix started (and continue)... I'd be interested in hearing what you mean by this (there must be some history behind it), either on the list (if appropriate) or in private email (if not appropriate for the list). (I support ISPs' rights to reject spam, but they should be receptive to cases which point out when their algorithm is defective with respect to large, intentionally-subscribed-to, lists.) Cheers, Stan Ryckman (stanr@tiac.net) From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 29 14:10:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA07127 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA07120 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA29077 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 17:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA04521; Sun, 29 Sep 96 17:05:39 EDT Date: Sun, 29 Sep 96 17:05:39 EDT From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9609292105.AA04521@smoe.org> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mass subscriptions from *.net.id? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of my lists has been getting a number of forged subscription requests for users in the net.id domain. Does anyone know what's going on here? Jeff From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 29 14:14:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA07152 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.grea