From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 17:13:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA26115 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id RAA26033 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 17:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA29951 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 06:54:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.200] (shiva1-mclean-200.his.com [205.252.121.200]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA10081; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:12:27 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:09 PM -0500 1/22/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >Juno, never gives me any problems but AOL is a constant source of >problems. Their people subscribe and then immediately start posting >messages to the list, "GET ME OFF THIS DAMN LIST!" etc.. Just wait until they get bigger. I guarantee that you'll have precisely the same problems with AT&T WorldNet, WebTV, and anyone else who gets really big. It's just the nature of the beast of large communities -- we don't have any more than our share of clueless customers (not much, anyway ;-), it's just that because we've got eight million customers, we've got a lot more total clueless people than other places. If you want another comparison, look at crime statistics for small towns of a few hundred or a few thousand people, and compare that to the largest cities in the world. They don't really have much more crimes of most types per capita, but because they have a lot more people, it seems that way. >At the moment, I'm trying to figure out how to refuse any and all >email from AOL. That should also eliminate about 99% of the spams we >receive. If that's what you want. We can make sure that no mail from your site makes it into AOL, too. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 21:25:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA16380 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA16082 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 21:09:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28777 invoked by uid 305); 2 Feb 1997 05:08:13 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Missed point... References: <199701310031.TAA12683@www6.clever.net> From: Paul Graham Date: 02 Feb 1997 00:08:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: Jason L Tibbitts III's message of 31 Jan 1997 00:39:13 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk indeed. i wonder when aol is going to switch to dsn style bounces. if your list software permits unchecked subscriptions then you will have problems. however i do think that aol -- as the largest source of bounced mail on the Internet -- has some obligation to format bounces in a style that's at least close to the rfc (e.g. doing failures would be good enough). >>>>> "J" == Jason L Tibbitts writes: J> As far as I'm concerned AOL has provided access for many of the J> members of my mailing lists, and has given me another bounce format J> to try to figure out. That's about it. -- paul pjg(at)acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 22:10:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA21333 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:03:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA21298 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id WAA04543; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:02:15 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:01:05 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:12 AM -0800 1/30/97, Brad Knowles wrote: >It's just the nature of the beast of large >communities -- we don't have any more than our share of clueless >customers (not much, anyway ;-), it's just that because we've got >eight million customers, we've got a lot more total clueless people >than other places. Hate to say it, Brad, but as someone who's defended AOL in the past, I have to now say -- I don't think so. Right now, I'm doing an address verification probe over on solutions.apple.com, sending out mail to each subscribed address to check for bounces. So far, I've sent out about 22,000 of the 52,000 e-mails (I've got the process throttled to avoid overloading any server, including my own, so mail is going out once every 7-10 seconds. It'll take about 5 days to finish the entire probe). As part of the message, I say, quite explicitly and in capital letters, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. I also give an address that people can mail to if they have questions/problems/need help, whatever. So far, just FWIW, my bounce rate is about 2%. Given that I try to keep my mailing lists pretty clean from bounces, I find that number fascinating, because there seems to be an awful lot of bouncemail that's not getting back to my server. Some servers just seem to not send errors back to bulk priority at all, or do so intermittently, so this standard-class probe is getting a bunch of things sent to it. Of course, a number of people are using this as a hook into getting help, either to update addresses or to get off the lists. That was part of it (and, frankly, the "DO NOT REPLY..." was *just* to see who reads and follows instructions and who doesn't. I was curious). I have picked up about 250 messages in response to this probe of an administrative nature -- that means wanting addresses changed or wanting to be unsubscribed. That ignores vacation bots and the like, which I'm seeing a lot less of than I'd expected. Of that 250 (roughly) messages so far, about 60% are coming to the requested address. The other 40% are from people replying despite the instructions and returning messages to the bounce-test mailbot. Now, for the interesting part. Of that 40% ignoring the instructions, a solid 80% of those are AOL people. Only about 20% of the AOL accounts sending me mail on this followed that instruction. So, I've sent about 3,500 e-mails to AOL accounts, and 18,500 e-mails to non-AOL accounts. My response is about 120 to the wrong address, of which about 95 were AOL addresses. And about 140 to the requested address, of which about 25 were AOL addresses. Right off the bat, there's a discrepancy: AOL responses are about 3.5% of the subscriber base, while for the rest of the net, it's only 0.7%. 80% of those responses were misdirected, either because the users didn't bother to read the instructions or chose not to follow them, while for the rest of the net, that number was quite small. I don't have to run this through a stat package to see it's statistically significant -- AOL users under identical situations are a *LOT* worse at reading and following instructions. They don't bother, or they can't, or whatever. A few, who's responses ranged from haughty to obnoxious to one rather abusive twit sent responses that boiled down to "I don't care what you say, I'm responding here, and dammit, you do what I tell you to do." And the responses I got back from AOL made it clear these folks don't know how to operate the machinery. Period. Despite my system sending instructions on subscription, and re-sending them to the list every two weeks, these people in many cases had no clue how to unsubscribe, had no clue how to get help, never bothered to read any of the instructions, don't know basics like e-mailing postmaster for help -- nothing. And when the information *is* presented to them, there's a high level of simply choosing to ignore it, doing what they want, and assuming it'll work anyway. I'm *not* seeing this from Compuserve (also probed), or earthlink (whihc is probably a very distant second in cluelessness so far), or any other service. It's kinda scary -- AOL users don't read the instructions, don't learn the basics,a dn then just sit back and TAKE IT in a very passive way, or they lash out and start doing random things, like screaming at the list, screaming at users posting to the list -- anything but the right thing. And from my feedback of the last couple of days, they're not terribly interested in learning. They want pack slaves to do all this for them. I'm *not* seeing that, except for a very isolated person here or there, anywhere else, but it's fairly common in the culture of the users I'm working with on AOL right now. This is not good. AOL has a huge amount of work to do to clean up their user base. Statistically, they *are* much different from the rest of the net, and with a high level of cluelessness and a low interest level in learning this stuff. And there's enough arrogance mixed into the mail I'm getting ("I don't know, I don't wnat to know, it's your job to fix this for me") that I'm not interested in defending AOL much right now. They're different, in very negative ways, and if I were to roll these numbers up formally and identify this in detail, I can prove it statistically. I'm not going to bother - the general trends are enough for me. But you ought to know about this, since this is fairly good data that I'm generating in a concentrated form with a good control against AOL, since I'm annoying users across the world equally here... The fact that something like an order of magnitude more AOL users by percentage of subscribers are responding is a huge warning sign all on its own -- because they're responding because they don't have the *basic* information needed to even find a post master or *ask* for help, until some address pops up they can latch onto. That's scary, or it should be, especially since that information is dumped into their mailbox on a regular basis, if they'd only read it. But the other scary thing is they're proving quite conclusively they don't bother to read instructions, and then wonder why things don't work.... Anyway, just some data to chew on. It turns out, from what I can see, that AOL users are different than the rest fo the net, not in positive ways. AOL's *not* just bigger. They're doing a rotten job of educating their users on how to use these internet tools, and their users are doing a rotten job of using the tools we give them, starting with instructions and help files. And I see a general lack of tacking responsibility for themselves and expecting others to take responsibility for them in their responses to me, which also aren't showing up from any other service.... Use, or ignore, as you wish... Data's always fun, because everyone can interpret it differently. This is mine... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 22:40:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA26388 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from cinna.ultra.net (cinna.ultra.net [199.232.56.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA26359 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 22:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager (d5.met.ma.ultra.net [209.6.4.5]) by cinna.ultra.net (8.7.4/ult1.04) with SMTP id BAA19586 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:36:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970202063636.006510dc@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 01:36:36 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, here *is* a "fresh horror from AOL," and it has little or nothing to do with its users' cluefulness. Saturday my list just got three bounces from AOL for the *same* message to the *same* user (as shown by Message-ID and Received headers going into AOL via emin27.mail.aol.com). The bounces came from: MRIN21.MAIL.AOL.COM MRIN19.MAIL.AOL.COM MRIN20.MAIL.AOL.COM It's for a user I'd been getting bounces for full mailbox for a couple of days (but only one per message, and from AOL.COM), so I know he's not triply-subscribed via forwards from somewhere. I had already set him to INDEX (this is a LISTSERV list) to reduce bounce volume; this was from an "old" post preceding that action of mine. If I start hearing from MRINxx for large ranges of xx, things could end up even worse than they were though! Cheers, Stan From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 23:55:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00176 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00146 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19520; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:37:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301710.MAA23755@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:57:41 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:12 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >Sorry, I haven't seen any of this. I've been on the Internet for more >than two years. I have yet to see anything positive coming from AOL. I've been on the 'net for well over a decade. Maybe you just have to be a more experienced netizen to see all the various things we do to benefit the 'net. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 1 23:59:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00466 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00243 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19570; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:38:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19274.854704024@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> References: <199701301710.MAA23755@www6.clever.net> <199701301710.MAA23755@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:22:33 -0500 To: Christopher Samuel , CEO@citadel.net From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:47 AM -0500 1/31/1997, Christopher Samuel wrote: >In that case can I respectfully request that this be taken to private >e-mail between the participants. You certainly won't see any more posts from me on this matter. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:03:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00648 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom20.netcom.com (netcom20.netcom.com [192.100.81.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA00636 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:43:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom20.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id AAA05876; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:42:33 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:42:33 -0700 (MST) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom20 To: List Managers List Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970202063636.006510dc@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Stan Ryckman wrote: > Well, here *is* a "fresh horror from AOL," and it has little or > nothing to do with its users' cluefulness. > > Saturday my list just got three bounces from AOL for the *same* message > to the *same* user (as shown by Message-ID and Received headers going > into AOL via emin27.mail.aol.com). The bounces came from: > MRIN21.MAIL.AOL.COM > MRIN19.MAIL.AOL.COM > MRIN20.MAIL.AOL.COM It's not an isolated incident -- it's happening to my list, too. Very annoying. / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:07:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00435 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00230 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19565; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:38:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Jason L Tibbitts III's message of 31 Jan 1997 00:39:13 -0600 <199701310031.TAA12683@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:21:40 -0500 To: Paul Graham , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Missed point... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:08 AM -0500 2/2/1997, Paul Graham wrote: >indeed. i wonder when aol is going to switch to dsn style bounces. if >your list software permits unchecked subscriptions then you will have >problems. however i do think that aol -- as the largest source of bounced >mail on the Internet -- has some obligation to format bounces in a style >that's at least close to the rfc (e.g. doing failures would be good enough). FITNR -- Fixed In The Next Release. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:10:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00406 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00217 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19559; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:38:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: "Dr. Manion"'s message of Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:34:06 +0000 <199701310031.TAA12683@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:19:46 -0500 To: Jason L Tibbitts III , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Missed point... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:39 AM -0500 1/31/1997, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >As far as I'm concerned AOL has provided access for many of the members of >my mailing lists, and has given me another bounce format to try to figure >out. That's about it. As we become more standard, we'll be fixing that last part. We've had to live with some legacy software for a while, and anytime you get yourselves into that kind of position, it takes a while to get it replaced. But we are working on that. We also hope to help fix that first part, by getting even more people online, and therefore even more potential subscribers for you. ;-) -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:11:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00106 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA29981 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19490; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:37:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301620.LAA09267@zax.leftbank.com> References: from "Brad Knowles" at Jan 30, 97 09:27:13 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:28:06 -0500 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:20 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >In the immortal words of Brad Knowles: > >> We are *very* interested in being proper net.citizens, and are >> not only working to adhere to the rules to the best of our ability >> (as model net.citizens), we are also helping to write the rules when >> there is new ground that hasn't really stabilized yet. > >I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if this is the case, >why are unverified accounts still able to send email and post to >usenet? We verify credit cards interactively. You cannot use a fake credit card number to get an AOL account. I'm not sure what else you might mean by "unverified accounts", though. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:15:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02019 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:09:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA01983 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA22071; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 03:07:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970202063636.006510dc@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 03:06:20 -0500 To: Stan Ryckman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: New fresh horror (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: knowlesb@aol.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:36 AM -0500 2/2/1997, Stan Ryckman wrote: >Well, here *is* a "fresh horror from AOL," and it has little or >nothing to do with its users' cluefulness. > >Saturday my list just got three bounces from AOL for the *same* message >to the *same* user (as shown by Message-ID and Received headers going >into AOL via emin27.mail.aol.com). The bounces came from: > MRIN21.MAIL.AOL.COM > MRIN19.MAIL.AOL.COM > MRIN20.MAIL.AOL.COM I don't believe these machines are in production yet. If you're getting bounces from them, my guess is that some machine on the sending end is horribly misconfigured, or it pointing at a nameserver that has a horribly corrupted cache (I've seen quite a few messages flowing through or attempting to flow through machines that weren't advertised anywhere and weren't ready or available for general production, and from a variety of sources). If you send copies of all of the relevant mail messages (the original plus the bounces from each of these machines) to my work email address (KnowlesB@aol.net), I'll take a look at them tomorrow and see what I can find. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:17:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00351 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00197 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19538; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:38:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701310026.TAA11931@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:17:34 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, Bonnie Scott , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:29 PM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >He himself, stated that anyone could suggest improvements for AOL. >This is not my job. I am not getting paid to do so. That is AOL's >responsibility. Internal staff do make suggestions, but we are only a relatively small groups of people. We cannot assume that we have the sum total knowledge of the world, or even just the Internet, even if we do have 40% of the "brain trust" from IBM's T.J. Watson research center from back when it seriously down-staffed (they have more patents on file than even Lucent Technologies, which used to be AT&T Bell Labs). So, we came up with this idea that we would let *anyone* in the world who thinks they have a good idea submit it to us for consideration as something we could do to help improve the Internet at a whole. I think we're pretty unique in that respect -- I don't know of anyone else in the world running such a project. Of course, a lot of the things we do help both ourselves and the Internet as a whole. I would expect that to be the case, since by definition, we are a part of the Internet, and are the largest single part of it. That's just simple math. >I believe that you missed the point. This is my experience. Your >experience may differ. However, my experience is that AOL has not >provided any benefit to the Internet as a whole. This is my opinion. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. No doubt about that. However, although I certainly disagree with certain marketing moves and/or their timing, I believe it behooves everyone to have as much facts from both sides of the issue before we start making public position statements, especially strong ones. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:20:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00467 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00358 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19504; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:37:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301631.KAA07986@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:31 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Mike Nolan wrote: >There was a time when AOL was a whole lot less cooperative when dealing with >standards and netiquette. I think their mail blocker is a good idea, but >still needs refinement to deal with the issues we've been discussing here. As the guy who's going to be implementing a large part of whatever we may be doing in the future for dealing with certain types of mail, I can guarantee you we've got quite a few techniques in mind. When we actually roll them out, you better hope you're not anywhere near the systems that these bozos are using. >I've got over 100 AOL subscribers on my lists, and I have a lot more trouble >from other services with a lot fewer subscribers. (But, if AOL would just >increase their mailbox size...) Well, we already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending attachments), this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox storage space (internally, attachments can be up to 15MB in size, so this would be ~8.2GB, if you were talking about only internal mail). Show me another place on the planet that allows their users to build up mailboxes this large. >And being the big dog, AOL is going to be the whipping boy for the industry. >(Compuserve and Prodigy took their lumps, too.) Yup. Life is tough being the top dog, but I'll be one of the first to take potshots at AOL if I think they're doing stupid stuff. What I don't appreciate is public bashing by people who don't have all the facts. >BTW, my 11 year old son keeps pointing out that AOL is still running some >spot TV ads. I believe that the settlement was to not run ads in areas where the access points are full, and beyond that we would advertise only enough to keep a steady-state membership of eight million users, until such time as we've spent that 330 million to upgrade our systems, and have the necessary capacity. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:22:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00344 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00188 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19526; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:37:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301837.NAA16899@Thinkage.On.CA> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:07:53 -0500 To: Ken Dykes , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Stale horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:37 PM -0500 1/30/1997, Ken Dykes wrote: >while Brad writes a reasonable message, i must take one minor exception... > >>Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:17:26 -0500 >>From: Brad Knowles >>Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL >> >> Check the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. That wouldn't get written >>without their [AOL] support. Check all the mailing lists run on > >of course it would have been. >dont presume that just because AOL do something that it wouldn't have >been done otherwise. No, although I was maintaining it when I was hired, I guarantee you that I wouldn't have had the time or interest to continue for much longer, had I not been hired into a position where I would be implementing that sort of thing on a daily basis and managing the resulting systems. The original sendmail FAQ as it was certainly wouldn't have gotten much work at all, had I not taken it over from Eric. And I don't believe that there would have been anyone interested or willing to take it over if I'd let the thing drop a year and a half ago. >so, if AOL is so supportive of sendmail users, when will AOL's own mail >software do the sendmail-thing with respect to "Precedence: list (or bulk)" >and NOT send back whole digests just to say "user invalid". That's a flaw in the way our gateway system works, and we are spending millions of dollars to replace the whole thing (removing our dependance on sendmail for that function). At that point, we will generate "invalid user" email messages during the collection phase, and it will be up to the sending MTA to generate the bounce and send it back (which would be whatever MTA your mailing list management package uses). Since we will have never accepted the message in the first place (at least, not to that recipient), there will be no possibility for us to cause the bounce to mis-delivered. And by the way, if you'll check the README that ships with sendmail (up to 8.8.5), you'll note that I personally have made several suggestions or actual contributions of code. I am particularly proud of the fact that support for TCP-Wrappers is now integrated, so that Email Administrators across the world can have access to this very powerful tool to help them control abuse of their systems. I could not possibly have made those contributions, were I not at a place like AOL where those kinds of issues came up, and where the results end up benefitting everyone. >you'd think the resulting massive reduction in bandwith at their own >gateways would be to their own advantage... Yup, it would. And it will. We've been working on this replacement system for several months now, and it's finally getting to the point where we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. But we've had to make sure that it got implemented right the first time, so that we don't have the same kinds of problems as CompuServe did when they first rolled out their new gateway system. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:24:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA02018 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA01984 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:08:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id DAA22047; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 03:06:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 03:00:01 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:01 AM -0500 2/2/1997, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Anyway, just some data to chew on. It turns out, from what I can see, >that AOL users are different than the rest fo the net, not in positive >ways. AOL's *not* just bigger. They're doing a rotten job of educating >their users on how to use these internet tools, and their users are >doing a rotten job of using the tools we give them, starting with >instructions and help files. And I see a general lack of tacking >responsibility for themselves and expecting others to take >responsibility for them in their responses to me, which also aren't >showing up from any other service.... I guess this means I'm going to have to violate my most recent statement in this thread. I've read this note, and I've known you long enough to know that there is no need to do the statistical analysis. You've convinced me that I was wrong, and that we do have significantly higher percentage of clueless users than the average. We clearly need to educate our users better. But, taking my AOL hat off now, how would you educate a large user community like this? I mean, the average Usenet poster seems quite clueless enough (give most of the posts I've read and personal email messages I get from people asking me to solve their problem for them), and quite incapable of reading the amazingly complete and accurate array of information that can be found in the FAQ archives. I mean, you can lead a user to the FAQ Archives, but you can't make them drink from the Font of Knowledge or the Well of Wisdom. How, then, do we educate a community of users that is even more clueless than this average? Up until a few months ago, it took a fairly significant investment of money to get on the 'net -- probably something like $1000 for the computer, then you had to understand how to hook up a modem to it, and use whatever software (whether it's AOL or something else) to get online. But now, you've got WebTV. $300, and it does everything for you -- you just have to plug in three cables (one power, one video, one telephone). The ISP access provided by AT&T WorldNet (and the RBOCs) are going to create similar problems -- Internet "dialtone" for many people will now be provided by the same folks who provide their "voice dialtone". You think eight million users creates a concentrated percentage of clueless users? Try 250 million, and that's just in the U.S. How can we educate a community like this? I mean, this is a group of people, the vast majority of whom can't even fix the blinking "12:00" on their VCRs -- how can we possibly hope to educate them to a level we consider minimally acceptable? As a guy who sees the FAQ he currently maintains growing ad infinitum (as I dumb it down further and further, to try and answer more and more basic questions), I'm beginning to get quite disheartened here. Does anyone have any ideas? -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 00:26:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA00162 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id XAA00118 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 23:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.253] (shiva1-mclean-253.his.com [205.252.121.253]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA19494; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 02:37:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301651.LAA20750@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:48:14 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: RE: Fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:53 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >This wasn't a bash on AOL this was a statement of fact. If AOL was >truly responsible it wouldn't have taken the threat of court action to >get them to take action. I've got this *wonderful* little joke I found at work. When I get there Monday morning, I'll forward it to myself at home, then onto the list. However, let me summarize it here: You see, this guy threatens to sue the telephone companies, because sometimes he tries to call someone (especially on a holiday like Mother's Day), and all he gets is busy signals. Obviously, the phone company is incompetent and should be sued for selling him a service he can't use. Likewise, he's going to sue every government on the face of the planet, because when he goes out onto the highway at rush hour, he has to wait in traffic. He's also going to sue every bank and other financial institution in the world, because they obviously should have increased their capacity so that he wouldn't have to wait in line. In addition, he's going to sue the cable companies for all those times when he turned on the set and the reception wasn't perfect, or when he had to wait on the phone while they processed his order for some pay-per-view service. Suffice it to say that it puts into very real perspective what it's like for people to file suit against us for not having sufficient capacity. However, don't misunderstand me -- I'll be the first person to speak up and say that AOL screwed up *royally* in not having more hardware in place sooner. Unfortunately, that was a decision made somewhere above the level of the people who have to try to manage this system (i.e., all us technical guys who had some clue as to how ludicrous this concept was), and we have just had to live with it. Now, you try working fourteen-plus hours a day trying to hold a system together with your bare hands, and we'll see how you react when you see the kind of AOL-bashing I've seen here. I guarantee you that everyone in Operations is literally working their butt off (and endangering their marriages, etc...) to keep this system up and working, and more importantly, to expand the system quickly enough that we can catch up to and overtake the growth we've seen, so that we can get ahead of that damn eight-ball. If you want to help us in that process, please do. If you have a problem with some part of the system right now, if you bring that to our attention in a reasonably professional manner, we'll do everything we can to help you get that problem solved (given the physical constraints of how many seconds there are in a minute, how many minutes there are in a day, how many days there are in a year, how fast our vendors can roll hardware out their doors, etc...). >There are all kinds of excuses that AOL has for their actions. They >have the resources to first run "controlled tests" of their email >before providing it. Whatever problems their email or subscribers >cause is still their responsibility *not* the responsibility of the >listowners who are providing service to everyone. We do controlled tests. In fact, from what I know of the sizes of the other largest systems on the 'net, our *test* systems are as large as or larger than the *production* systems of most of our competitors. However, that fact means that there are some issues of scale that simply will not show up until something is rolled out into production, because there is nothing else on the planet that is of the same scale and type. In addition, no matter how big your test systems are, there are simply some things that are esoteric enough that they cannot possibly all be tested. If that were the case, then nothing but perfect code would roll out of Microsoft's offices in Redmond, because they've got more money to spend on testing their various OSes and applications than anyone else in the world, and yet their code is buggier than most anyone else I can think of. I can only assume that they don't really care, or they could at least do better than they currently manage (knowing something of operating and testing very large systems, I would never expect them to be perfect). >AOL is a commercial service and despite illusions of grandeur, >doesn't own the Internet. I personally wasted three days cleaning up >after AOL. Three days which could have better spent elsewhere. In all likelihood, if you compare the amount of time spent cleaning up per user, we're not costing you much more effort or money per users, it's the fact that we have 20% of the entire Internet population on AOL. I'd say our "error" rates per capita are probably about as low as or lower than most any other site on the 'net, it's just that we have so many more users than any other site on the 'net. At least, I say this based on my own experience as a list manager (in my private life), and on my conversations with other list managers (over the years). If this is not true for your particular list, then there must be something unique about your list that is causing you more problems than most others. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 07:25:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA20242 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA20226 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 07:22:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702021522.HAA20226@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5663; Sun, 02 Feb 97 16:15:01 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9446; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:15:01 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:11:43 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: List Managers In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 Brad Knowles said: > Well, we already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit >Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending attachments), >this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox storage space I have no problem with that, however it would be really nice if people were allowed to accumulate more mail as long as the total did not exceed 20M or whatever quota you felt comfortable with. Maybe even as a premium service costing another $2/month or whatever. To give just one example, there's a lot (as list owner demographics go) of people trying to run moderated lists on AOL and finding it very difficult to cope with long weekends or the like when they are away for 3-4 days. Yet some of them are not comfortable enough with other services and want to stay on AOL. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 09:40:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA24809 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA24800 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01548; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA12366; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:26 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA12221; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:25 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702021728.LAA12221@celery.tssi.com> Subject: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:24 -0600 (CST) Cc: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 01:55:42 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles wrote: > Well, we [AOL] already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit > Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending > attachments), this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox > storage space (internally, attachments can be up to 15MB in size, so > this would be ~8.2GB, if you were talking about only internal mail). The problem is the fixed number of messages. I'd much rather see a disk quota limit, perhaps as an option. That way users who choose to subscribe to busy lists like mine (the average message is under 1K, but I've been known to send out over 100 messages in a single day) don't fill up just because they take a long weekend off as long as they stay within their disk quota. (I do offer a daily digest, I'll make sure my AOL subscribers know it is one way around the full mailbox syndrome, although at the cost of losing some immediacy.) > >BTW, my 11 year old son keeps pointing out that AOL is still running some > >spot TV ads. > > I believe that the settlement was to not run ads in areas where > the access points are full, and beyond that we would advertise only > enough to keep a steady-state membership of eight million users, > until such time as we've spent that 330 million to upgrade our > systems, and have the necessary capacity. Well, one of the places I'm seeing the ads is on the Preview Channel, but I don't know if their ads are different on every cable service that carries it. (I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska, and according to the local media AOL lines are busy here a lot--in fact that's why I dropped my AOL subscription 3 or so years ago, I could never get on so I found a better provider for me.) Mentioning my traffic level raises a question, so to return to the general subject of mailing list management, what do other list managers running high volume lists do about bounces? If I'm sending out 100 messages a day, that means I'm sending out one every few minutes. A two or three hour outage (unfortunately, still common on the Internet) means I can get a dozen or more bounces from a single subscriber, well above the bounce threshold for most list packages. I really don't want to kick people off my lists just because of a transient net problem, because it winds up generating a lot of traffic to me about 'what happened to my subscription?' so to get around this, on my most active lists I've raised the limit. As a result I've been known to get a thousand bounces in a single day. Are there packages that can discriminate between different classes of bounces and handle them differently in terms of deciding whether or not to purge the subscriber? (Procmail/Smartlist doesn't, except for 'warning' messages, which technically aren't bounces anyway. Speaking of which, aren't non-delivery notices sort of unnecessary these days for bulk mail, to to mention nearly as much of an annoyance as 'message opened' notices?) One thought I've had was that to keep track by days rather than by number of bounces. (3 consecutive days of bounced messages and you're off.) Unfortunately, if I'm sending out 100 messages/day, that makes things worse, because I've got my limit set at something like 40 bounces right now. Since I'm in free association here, I've seen packages (majordomo-based) that rolled bounced users over to a daily 'bounce notice' list, is anyone rolling bounced users over to some kind of digest form as an intermediate step before purging them? (That would have the advantage of putting my AOL users on a list form that takes up fewer of their 550 mailbox slots.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 10:10:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA25613 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:08:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA25606 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA02349 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:06:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA12914 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:06:36 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA12974 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:06:34 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702021806.MAA12974@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:06:34 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The following bouce struck me as being highly appropriate to the subject matter under discussion, not to mention a bit ironic. I don't know if my list management software would recognize this as a bounce, but wouldn't it be a good idea if the message indicated what the limit being exceeded was? BTW, the bounce included the full text of my message, so apparently Sprynet doesn't truncate bounces on bulk mail, either. -- Mike Nolan Forwarded message: > From root@m4.sprynet.com Sun Feb 2 11:52:28 1997 > Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 09:47:14 -0800 > Message-Id: <199702021747.JAA25397@m4.sprynet.com> > To: nolan@tssi.com > References: <199702021728.LAA12221@celery.tssi.com> > In-Reply-To: <199702021728.LAA12221@celery.tssi.com> > X-Loop: postmaster@sprynet.com > From: Interserv Operations > Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general [delivery failure to foodfant@m4.sprynet.com] > > The message that you sent to the above recipient was not delivered. All mail > sent to this account will continue to be returned until the recipient has > removed enough mail to lower the mailbox size below the system mailbox limit. > > -- > > Sprynet Network Operations Center Postmaster@sprynet.com > 2001 6th Ave. Suite 3025B noc@interserv.net > Seattle, WA. 95121 CompuServe/Internet Division From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 10:40:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA26934 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA26927 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.249.100] (dharma.proper.com [165.227.249.100]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09875; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:34:26 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@mail.proper.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:36:52 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Cc: Brad Knowles , Chuq Von Rospach Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (Disclaimer: both AOL and Apple are members of IMC.) Since this is the list-managers mailing list, let's keep this focused on mailing lists. AOL has not done a great job of helping their members understand how to get on, get off, and be nice members of mailing lists. Unfortunately, the same can be said for Apple and its employees, from my personal list management experience (I say "unfortunately" because I'm a card-carrying Mac enthusiast). The issue of mailing list education goes way beyond finger-pointing and accusing. Today, AOL attracts more people who are probably harder to educate about the Internet than other ISPs do. However, I believe that we are rapidly running out of new Internet users who are easily trained, and we are about to see new users from all ISPs starting to look like the clueless (and sometimes abusive) AOL users that list managers dread. Corporate employees, even at computer manufacturers like Apple, have either chosen to get on the Internet before today, or have chosen not to. Those who have chosen not to but change their minds (probably involuntarily) this year represent a challenge to all mailing list owners. Instead of having just one email interface, they'll have many, many of them not native Internet applications, often written by companies that were actively antagonistic to the Internet. So, what can we do to educate the members of our lists? What can we do to reduce the problems caused by the users who can't/won't be educated about the basics? Is this an issue of education or enforcement? --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 10:55:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA27135 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA27117 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 10:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15335 invoked by uid 305); 2 Feb 1997 18:40:09 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general References: <199702021728.LAA12221@celery.tssi.com> From: Paul Graham Date: 02 Feb 1997 13:40:08 -0500 In-Reply-To: Mike Nolan's message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk listserv handles most bounces directly. addresses are removed when either a time or volume threshold has been passed. this sort of approach is vital if you have busy lists. i believe it also distinguishes between transient and permanent failures (as dsn encodes them). after you do this you have to deal with broken mailers that return bounces to the From: line and annoying mailers that don't use dsn format (or really annoying mailers like sendmail 8.6 that use mime but don't do dsn or x400 gateways that return random looking junk that isn't worth trying to parse). despite my profound annoyance at the way aol works at least their bounce format can be trivially converted to dsn (so why don't they do it?). another approach is to simply discard all bounces and periodically probe or confirm addresses. btw, bounces remain useful for people who want to prune lists but don't want to or can't do probes or reconfirmations. >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Nolan writes: Mike> Mentioning my traffic level raises a question, so to return to Mike> the general subject of mailing list management, what do other Mike> list managers running high volume lists do about bounces? -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 11:40:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA29118 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA29078 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:36:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:33 EDT Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:33 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: brad@his.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"brad@his.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"brad@his.com" "Brad Knowles" 2-FEB-1997 03:29:09.36 > I've read this note, and I've known you long enough to know that >there is no need to do the statistical analysis. You've convinced me >that I was wrong, and that we do have significantly higher percentage >of clueless users than the average. What proportion of _new_ (say, have used Internet email for less than 3 months total) users does AOL have, both as a proportion of AOL users and as a proportion of new users on the Internet? These would appear to be more significant statistics than the proportion of Internet users going via AOL (20%, as you've said before). I suspect the result would tend to confirm your above statement, and Chuq (sp?)'s findings. > But, taking my AOL hat off now, how would you educate a large >user community like this? I mean, the average Usenet poster seems >quite clueless enough (give most of the posts I've read and personal >email messages I get from people asking me to solve their problem for >them), and quite incapable of reading the amazingly complete and >accurate array of information that can be found in the FAQ archives. >I mean, you can lead a user to the FAQ Archives, but you can't make >them drink from the Font of Knowledge or the Well of Wisdom. I would personally attribute this to A. failures in the educational system; B. liberals busily trying to make sure (and succeeding in convincing people that this _should_ be the case) that people don't have to take care of themselves in regards to income; C. conservatives busily trying to make sure (and succeeding in convincing people that this _should_ be the case) that people don't have to take care of themselves in regards to ideas. (If you aren't a libertarian like me, feel free to delete either B or C as appropriate for your consideration; blaming either side works almost as well as both.) This manifestation is a syndrome that I've seen a lot of, and that I'll be commenting on further. In other words, most people today can't figure something out from simple pre-packaged information; they have to be hand-held. And with a lot lower proportion of experienced to new users on AOL (and on the other quickly-expanding services you mention below), the hand-holding doesn't happen. > How, then, do we educate a community of users that is even more >clueless than this average? Well, A. convince the marketing people not to expand so fast (the recent debacle with expanding too fast in terms of hardware may teach them something... or it may just show exactly how little they're thinking about things like this); and B. don't make things so easy for within-service stuff. The latter appears insane... until you understand what I mean (I hope). First, people who are used to having to work to understand how to get stuff within a service to work will be used to having to work to understand stuff outside of a service. They won't be used to unnecessary levels of hand-holding (as opposed to the necessary variety I spoke of earlier) and to service providers being nice to them despite impoliteness, _determined_ cluelessness, and (to put it bluntly) idiocy. (Of course, part of this is that syndrome I mentioned earlier... that essentially says (in this case) that people who you're not paying to be nice to you should be just as nice to you as people you are paying.) Second, they'll have had to figure out things on their own - which is about the only way I know of to teach people to keep on doing that. (I will comment that GUIs are pretty bad about this, at least for those that (unlike me) find them easy to use. They don't teach you anything about the guts of the computer. When you're used to clicking on a nice dialog box to request help from someone official, you aren't used to figuring out who to send the help request to when it isn't for a dialog box.) Third, it filters out the idiots, both those who are dumb to start with and those who are effectively so because of that syndrome. (I mean no insult to _all_ AOL, etcetera users by this statement; I have a number of friends and family members who use AOL. It's just that making things too easy to do without _learning_ and _thinking_ has this effect.) Now, there is some user-friendliness that should be increased... namely, those aspects that make it less likely that the user will bother someone who isn't being paid for the job. The mail controls bug recently mentioned here is a definite example - having mail bouncing that's coming from someone you've sent mail to is more of a problem for the blockee than the blocker. > Up until a few months ago, it took a fairly significant >investment of money to get on the 'net -- probably something like >$1000 for the computer, then you had to understand how to hook up a >modem to it, and use whatever software (whether it's AOL or something >else) to get online. > But now, you've got WebTV. $300, and it does everything for you >-- you just have to plug in three cables (one power, one video, one >telephone). The ISP access provided by AT&T WorldNet (and the RBOCs) >are going to create similar problems -- Internet "dialtone" for many >people will now be provided by the same folks who provide their >"voice dialtone". Yeah. I'm worried about it too. I'm considering having subscription by an approval-only process... and having the default approval for WebTV, Juno, and (I'm afraid) AOL being no approval. Unless someone's got someone else I know who'll recommend them, they may not be able to get on my list. I don't want to do this... but I will if I have to. Incidentally, I'm not _that_ worried about the AT&T et al stuff, unlike the WebTV et al. Quite simply, I doubt they're going to be very good at being too user-friendly. > You think eight million users creates a concentrated percentage >of clueless users? Try 250 million, and that's just in the U.S. Yeah. I don't know if educational systems, politics, etcetera in Europe, Japan, et al will be worse or better than the ones in the US. I suspect worse in the case of Europe (hand-holding like Germany's belief that it will go Nazi again if it doesn't block _icons_ of swasticas (see CorelDraw, as I recall), plus the overall welfare state); I suspect something in between worse and better in the case of Japan. (They seem likely (as a _vast_ (over)generalization) to be about as clueless (educational systems based on memorization don't encourage thinking), but not to be as noisy about it.) > As a guy who sees the FAQ he currently maintains growing ad >infinitum (as I dumb it down further and further, to try and answer >more and more basic questions), I'm beginning to get quite >disheartened here. Same here. That's one reason that the mailing list I'm getting ready to run (when grad school gives me the time...) will be called Meritocracy. > Does anyone have any ideas? I'm sorry if I've been too discouraging, or too appearing of trolling (I'm not, honest... not that such a claim does much good). I'm not meaning to get into an argument, especially not on the list. Some may call me cynical; I consider myself realistic. I'll be happy to _discuss_ this with those of the optimist persuasion. -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 13:46:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08210 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:29:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA08162 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28013; 2 Feb 97 13:27 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 02 Feb 97 11:20:23 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Feb 97 11:16:10 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles writes: > At 1:29 PM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: > >I believe that you missed the point. This is my experience. Your > >experience may differ. However, my experience is that AOL has not > >provided any benefit to the Internet as a whole. This is my opinion. Examples? I'm not sure what Mother Theresa ISP might be expected to perform for the neighborhood, other than provide access to her users which did not overly burden the community at large. Should AOL build a charity homeless hospital on the net, maybe for old disgruntled Source users? --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 13:50:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08209 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:29:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA08161 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:28:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28007; 2 Feb 97 13:27 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 02 Feb 97 11:11:26 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <0sii2D2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 97 11:03:57 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles writes: > We verify credit cards interactively. You cannot use a fake > credit card number to get an AOL account. I'm not sure what else you > might mean by "unverified accounts", though. Possibly: a verified user simply switches his account name. He is now BombasterX@aol.com. He sends a stream of garbage, perhaps even a load of system demands to the last list he was justifiably kicked off. He drops his alias before the material comes back, which of course bounces, which of course adds a heavy load to the system he's bombing, which was his intent. Here's my experience: if I complain about an isolated user to AOL, there is a chance I will see a rather prompt, courtesous, and helpful reply. If I bring to them a possible liability, such as the above (which I have), I will hear total silence. They will not so much as acknowledge my mail. Now, this may've been 1995, and it may have been rare, but there was some dud on AOL sent a resource bomb as I've described to bring down my small system, and AOL did not respond to my repeated demands they take action and inform. I suspect from that the legal department kicks in whenever there is potential for liability, and I wonder if other listowners have seen that sort of non-response. --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 13:55:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08211 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA08159 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28001; 2 Feb 97 13:27 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 02 Feb 97 11:00:35 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sun, 02 Feb 97 10:40:33 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 6:12 AM -0800 1/30/97, Brad Knowles wrote: > > It's just the nature of the beast of large > >communities -- we don't have any more than our share of clueless > >customers (not much, anyway ;-), it's just that because we've got > >eight million customers, we've got a lot more total clueless people > >than other places. > > Hate to say it, Brad, but as someone who's defended AOL in the past, I > have to now say -- I don't think so. I think a good reference point to identify anyone is how they come to be where they are. It works in parenting, politics, and `Hey, dood, where you comin' from?' Setting up a PPP account with most any other ISP is vastly different than a simple dial-in you access because you picked up a glossy mag at the newstand and a disk inviting you to follow the easy clicks to Internet nirvana dropped on your shoes. When I first took up the other accounts I have used, I had to go over docs just to connect, and continue to read in order to stay aboard, and read more to make the various parts work together. It's precisely the problem in education - to raise self-esteem, many are given the point-and-click option, yet when they arrive where they are supposed to perform, they are lost. You can't sell a product based strictly on glitzy ease-of-use and expect to produce qualified engineers. That said, let me also declare right here that I have seen some avid, engaged feedback from support at AOL backstage, both from the individuals who compile and keep current Mailing List data and on the occasions when some garbage spews forth from their vast army of unwashed users. They ain't ogres at AOL, it's just that they're caught in this vast chain of events partly caused by themselves, much like the New York Jets. --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 13:58:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA07734 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:21:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA07727 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA12492; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:20:23 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:20:23 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Brad Knowles Cc: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: RE: Fresh horror from AOL In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Brad Knowles wrote: > > If you want to help us in that process, please do. If you have a > problem with some part of the system right now, if you bring that to > our attention in a reasonably professional manner, we'll do > everything we can to help you get that problem solved (given the > physical constraints of how many seconds there are in a minute, how > many minutes there are in a day, how many days there are in a year, > how fast our vendors can roll hardware out their doors, etc...). I have to agree with Brad on this, from experience. I'm not affiliated with AOL, but I am a list-manager for two systems with tens of thousands of subscribers. Whenever I've had a problem with AOL, I've approached Brad and he's been very helpful to me. Brad, if anything, I want to let you know that there's at least one person out there who appreciates you and the people in your department. > >There are all kinds of excuses that AOL has for their actions. They > >have the resources to first run "controlled tests" of their email > >before providing it. Whatever problems their email or subscribers > >cause is still their responsibility *not* the responsibility of the > >listowners who are providing service to everyone. > > We do controlled tests. In fact, from what I know of the sizes > of the other largest systems on the 'net, our *test* systems are as > large as or larger than the *production* systems of most of our > competitors. Also agreed. I know, as well as anybody else that deals with things on a sysadmin level, there's only so much testing that can be done before the test has to be put into testing on the public! It's just a fact that when there's a bug in AOL it affects us so greatly because we all have so many AOL subscribers. All this means is that they (AOL) have to be more careful in bringing things to the public. Doesn't mean they can't screw up once and awhile -- I know I have quite a few times. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 14:01:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA06506 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA06472 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:00:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA11082 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-08.llion.org [198.209.45.108]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA25768 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:23:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701301723.MAA25768@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:26:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 30 Jan 97 ,Brad Knowles insightfully wrote: > At 12:09 PM -0500 1/22/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: > > >Juno, never gives me any problems but AOL is a constant source of > >problems. Their people subscribe and then immediately start posting > >messages to the list, "GET ME OFF THIS DAMN LIST!" etc.. > > Just wait until they get bigger. I guarantee that you'll have > precisely the same problems with AT&T WorldNet, WebTV, and anyone > else who gets really big. It's just the nature of the beast of large > communities -- we don't have any more than our share of clueless > customers (not much, anyway ;-), it's just that because we've got > eight million customers, we've got a lot more total clueless people > than other places. ROFL! Again, I see that AOL doesn't want to take responsibility. "Well, if you were as big as us -- you couldn't do anything either!" ROFL! Thanks! I need a good laugh, today. Brad, you seem to have the same mindset as AOL. In fact, your email is a prime example of AOL's mindset. Simply stated, you don't want to take responsibility for your actions. It's everyone else's fault but yours. "No one else can do this or is doing this, so why should we?" ROFL! Thanks for proving what we all suspected. > If you want another comparison, look at crime statistics for > small towns of a few hundred or a few thousand people, and compare > that to the largest cities in the world. They don't really have much > more crimes of most types per capita, but because they have a lot > more people, it seems that way. Ahh, worthy of a good politician. Mis-direct the conversation to something irrelevant. ROFL! > If that's what you want. We can make sure that no mail from your > site makes it into AOL, too. oooo, a threat! ROFL! Thanks, I have already taken those steps. As noted in a previous email, I had a long discussion with the person who maintains the AOL's directory of lists. It took awhile to be removed but we finally did. But not after AOL trying to convince us how much we "needed" them and how much we would benefit from their subscribers. Again, illusions of gradeur. You assume AOL is "needed". It's not. The Internet was here before AOL and it will be here after after AOL follows the way of Prodigy, Genie and others. Thanks for the entertaining email, Brad. Much appreciated. 8) Leonard From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 14:04:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA08057 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:27:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA07929 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id NAA19811; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:25:45 -0800 X-Sender: chuq@solutions.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:13:35 -0800 To: Paul Hoffman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Cc: Brad Knowles , Chuq Von Rospach Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:36 AM -0800 2/2/97, Paul Hoffman wrote: >Unfortunately, the same can be said for Apple and its employees, from my >personal list management experience (I say "unfortunately" because I'm a >card-carrying Mac enthusiast). I don't disagree. There are idiots elsewhere. My email the last few days proves this. What I found significant, and why I brought it up, was how the percentages of "issues" coming from AOL users was so much higher than I was seeing elsewhere. Not that AOL was the *only* problem, or that problems were unique to it, but that the problems coming out of AOL were out of proportion to the net as a whole. We've argued back and forth about AOL ad nauseum, mostly with people on one side or the other making broad statements based on personal feelings. I finally have some real data that I think is useful to put it in perspective. What we do with that data is still TBD.... >So, what can we do to educate the members of our lists? What can we do to >reduce the problems caused by the users who can't/won't be educated about >the basics? Is this an issue of education or enforcement? Yes. First, a big key: "education" is not the answer. USENET has proven this year in and year out for decades. You can only write so many intros, so many FAQs, so many netiquettes. You can drop a horse in the middle of a river, and he'll still die of thirst if he won't open his mouth... At some point, "education" loses economy of scale. It's like stereo equiptment: the first $500 gets you 90% of the way, and then from there, how close you want to get to 100% of the ultimate sound depends only on how many zeroes you want to add to the price tag. At some point, though, practically speaking, adding two more zeros to go from 97% to 97.5% doesn't make sense... So education is *part* of the answer. Improved server technology is another big key. Servers have to get better and working *with* users, and guiding them out of traps and wrong behaviors, and nudging them in the right direction, and feeding them *directed* help. Simply blatting out a 10K help/FAQ file every time they throw a syntax error doesn't solve the problem. Sending them one paragraph on what they did wrong, how it ought to be done, and where to get more detail is, because it's a *lot* more likely to be read. I'll cover the "what can AOL do" in a different message, beacuse I'm still mulling that over, but there are things that the service providers can do to help improve user education and their own user experience (and it may be some stuff as simple as better publicizing existing programs, or making certain documentation easier to find), but those of us who run these things have to realize that we're no longer catering to technologically sophisticated users, and we need to improve our systems as well. My current list server system (and documentation) worked great 18 months ago when I implemented it. It hasn't fallen apart -- but the needs of the users *have* changed significantly, and so areas that used to not be a problem now are. Fault of the system? The user? It's not the system's fault the users have changed and are less technically aware. it is, however, the fault of the system that it hasn't adapted to this.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 14:12:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA06729 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id NAA06710 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 13:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA04850 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:12:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA24038 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:12:48 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199701311712.MAA24038@itw.com> Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:12:46 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Jan 30, 1997 09:17:26 AM Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: Ditka Diplomatic Studies Institute X-Last-River: West Branch, Brandywine River X-Last-CD: Carrie Newcomer, "My Father's Only Son" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="%--multipart-mixed-boundary-1.23972.854730766--%" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --%--multipart-mixed-boundary-1.23972.854730766--% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brad Knowles writes: > Check the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. That wouldn't get written >without their support. While I find the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ eminently useful, and am very glad that it exists, there's no doubt in my mind that it would exist even if AOL never had. It's too necessary not to. >Check [...] I know, I see them. But it's my impression that some/many of those resources, such as the list you mentioned about SGML, are provided by people who happen to be at AOL, not by AOL. >In fact, there have been times when we've tried to give large sums >of money to the authors of certain pieces of software, when it turned >out that those authors didn't want money, but instead wanted something >we weren't in a position to provide. I think this may be because we're working under different paradigms. I don't *want* large sums of money for running mailing lists, or writing FAQs, or moderating newsgroups, or creating web-based resources, or writing software, or any of the many things I've contributed since joining the 'net in 1981. [Yes, since someone will ask, I did have a .arpa address.] For example, not implementing poorly-thought-out mail filtering or screwing up HTTP 1.1 support would be a good start [see attached ASCII document] and respecting work done by non-AOLers (meaning leaving copyrighted work intact including all attributions, so that it's easily distinguishable from AOL's own work) would be nice. Please understand clearly: I do not, except under extraordinary circumstances such as security situations where I need their help, expect AOL to do anything FOR me. I simply want them to stop doing things TO me. > I'm sorry guy, if you want to rant and rave, go to alt.aol-sucks. >Let's keep the conversations on this list to *useful* ones. I'm sorry guy, I didn't "rant and rave". I gave my opinion, based on many, many years of experience with the 'net and with AOL. (If you want ranting and raving, ask me about Bobby Knight in rec.sport.basketball.college. :-) ) You may not have found my remarks useful, but other people seem to have, judging from the mail I've received. ---Rsk --%--multipart-mixed-boundary-1.23972.854730766--% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: mail folder Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="wow" >From destiny@crl.com Sat Dec 28 05:11:27 1996 Received: from cloud9.net (SpPeUxzWz9oxKjQNBtYJ3v0YK//f2rBG@cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by mail.itw.net (8.8.0/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA24399; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 05:33:25 -0500 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by cloud9.net (8.8.4/cloud9-1.0) id DAA15832 for aol-list-outgoing; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 03:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from crl.crl.com (unknown@crl.com [165.113.1.12]) by cloud9.net (8.8.4/cloud9-1.0) with SMTP id DAA15827 for ; Sat, 28 Dec 1996 03:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by crl.crl.com id AA09888 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for The AOL List ); Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:43:11 -0800 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 00:43:11 -0800 (PST) From: David Cassel To: The AOL List Subject: The AOL List: War of the Web Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aol-list@cloud9.net Precedence: bulk Status: RO W a r o f t h e W e b ~~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~ Two weeks ago AOL implemented a new web procedure that blocked millions of their users from thousands of sites. The sites used HTML-compliant protocols, but AOL changed the way they were handled December 14. Days later a webmaster complained that a colleague "has to downgrade his entire site for these ninnies... AOL has no work-around at present." Ten days later, the situation persisted. Hiway technologies issued a press release headlined "AOL Flubs HTTP/1.1 Support". In the crucial pre-Christmas shopping week, AOL failed to address their incompatibility. "[T]he fact that we are in full compliance means nothing to the millions of AOL users that are being denied access by their own provider," Hiway technologies complained, announcing a work-around they'd created specifically for AOL's browser. Within hours of the embarrassing press release, AOL fixed their problem. But hard feelings lingered from their original response--an error message which specifically stated--incorrectly--that "This is an issue with the Web site, and not with AOL." The Apache web page displayed an AOL executive's statement which implied that the action had been taken deliberately: "We wanted to stem the tide of those faults proliferating and becoming a de facto standard by blocking them now." As Apache saw it, "we have a large company which is publicly snubbing consensus-developed Internet standards". (They added that AOL is a member of the W3 Consortium, the organization which arrived at the very standard AOL unilaterally failed to recognize!) A user wrote AOL's "AOL Insider" columnist, "Can you please tell someone at AOL to fix this?!?!?!" It couldn't have come at a worse time. "A year ago, we did not have a terrific Web experience..." Steve Case conceded recently to Tech Wire. "We had a mediocre browser and $3 an hour pricing." But Case went on to boast "We now think we're shipping the best Web experience..." TechWire named AOL "Company of the Year", but elsewhere, ranked the service #1 for the top Web crash of 1996. Addressing the blocked sites, an AOL executive told C|Net Monday, "The company is aware of the problem and is working to rectify it." But blissfully unaware, the AOL Insider continued to insist that "in this case, the fault is not AOL's!" Incorrectly calling the web page hardware an "experimental version of a Web server that doesn't support the Web protocol correctly," they told readers Wednesday "You can write the Webmaster of the site...to tell them there could potentially be 7+ million more people seeing their site if they'd fix their problem. That'll light a fire." It lit a fire, all right... "IMHO, AOL is guilty of slander," one poster noted on Usenet. The sys-op of a BBS in Atlanta commented, "They have told more lies than all the presidents put together!" This isn't the first time AOL sidestepped blame. Last year the 700-member "Undercover" mailing list found that changes to AOL's mail client were preventing mailing list posts from reaching AOL's users--and that AOL's staff were blaming the mailing list operators. And it isn't AOL's first move against the Web community. AOL is encouraging fees on web sites run by their content providers--to make AOL shine in comparison. But there's no guarantee content providers will go along with the scheme. A spokesman for AOL's "Mom's Online" area--featured prominently in AOL's television ads--told the AOL List, "As I view the web as a critical distribution platform in our future, the incentive AOL offers would have to be VERY compelling." The daily columnist for Yahoo! Internet Life cited one AOL one content provider who estimated that under such an arrangement, half AOL's existing partners would leave the service, but another told them AOL's Robert Pittman would still start reviewing all the existing relationships at the end of January. There are even more ominous signs. "America Online Inc.'s move to push its content providers to offer exclusive content may not only be another ploy to strengthen its lead as the dominant online service," wrote Internet Week, "but is another signal that AOL actually wants to be the World Wide Web." The deliberate vagueness of the company's tagline "AOL is the internet," is only the first sign. Boasting about AOL's subscribers to Wired magazine, Ted Leonsis insisted "To these 6 million homes, we are the Web." Ironically, signing onto AOL tonight offered a game that "lets you become part of the Borg Collective...and assimilate every race in the universe, right on your desktop." ("Click on the ORDER button now, and your purchase will be conveniently billed to your AOL account," the post ended.) Even removing a page from a web site doesn't remove it from the AOL universe. Though the page may be gone, typing its URL into AOL's browser returns the message "Please wait while that site is contacted." Persisting in the charade, the browser then announces "Transferring bytes"--and then displays a file which no longer exists...except on AOL's machines in Virginia. AOL stores copies of web pages to conceal the delays its service causes by routing all requests through a chokepoint in Virginia--and users have no way of knowing whether AOL has chosen to display a web page's current version, or an old one. A recent trial-run returned the old version from AOL's cache for at least a half an hour...and there's no way around it. ("Click here to RELOAD the current document," the browser offers helpfully-- but rather than contacting the site, AOL simply re-displays the old, cached version.) This is an important caveat to AOL's claim of "fastest internet experience". ("Based on having the America Online computer at room temperature and the Internet Service computer in a refrigerator," one user quipped.) And it can only get worse as system crowding increases. AOL told the Washington Post they would promote the service less to improve its capacity for current members--but TV ads are still urging users to "Join today". In fact, Robert Pittman recently commented that AOL had underestimated demand when they moved to flat-rate pricing. "I wonder how they can make money," the head of AT&T's Worldnet told the Wall Street Journal. Indeed, Bloomberg recently reported that, less than one month into flat-rate pricing, AOL is now considering charging for parts of their service--which suggests that AOL is, in fact, losing money off their current pricing. AOL's welcome screen have even begun heavily promoting their pay-in-advance plan--and when TechWire asked Steve Case about ads in chat rooms, Case responded, "That's something we'd consider." Meanwhile, life goes on AOL. December 24 found a Christmas spam from CyberPromotions--"have a wonderful holiday, and we'll see you soon, in an e-mailbox near you!!" THE LAST LAUGH In celebration of the holidays, the webmaster at Green Bay Online created a wreath made from AOL disks. (http://www.dct.com/gbol/whats_new/AOL.html) "This is a 2.5 wreath," he told me. "The 3.0 wreath is on my garage." David Cassel More Information - http://www.wco.com/~destiny/time.htm ~~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~ Please forward with subscription information and headers in-tact. To subscribe to this moderated list, send a message to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET containing the phrase SUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST in the message body. To unsubscribe send a message saying UNSUBSCRIBE AOL-LIST to MAJORDOMO@CLOUD9.NET ~~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~++~ --%--multipart-mixed-boundary-1.23972.854730766--%-- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 14:49:20 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12797 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA12779 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id OAA21321; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:06 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: "Dr. Manion"'s message of Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:34:06 +0000 <199701310031.TAA12683@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:27:33 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , Jason L Tibbitts III , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Missed point... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:19 PM -0800 2/1/97, Brad Knowles wrote: > As we become more standard, we'll be fixing that last part. >We've had to live with some legacy software for a while, and anytime >you get yourselves into that kind of position, it takes a while to >get it replaced. But we are working on that. God, I know that one... It's even worse when you implemented the legacy stuff yourself and have to live with the warts knowing who to blame.... Let's *not* forget that this stuff ain't magic and you can't fix it overnight. Especially if you can't afford to break mail for eight million users. "oops, we're sorry" just doesn't cut it that well in those situations... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 14:53:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12777 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA12756 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id OAA21316; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:30:56 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702021522.HAA20226@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:26:03 -0800 To: Eric Thomas , List Managers From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:11 AM -0800 2/2/97, Eric Thomas wrote: >On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 Brad Knowles said: > >> Well, we already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit >>Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending attachments), >>this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox storage space > >I have no problem with that, however it would be really nice if people >were allowed to accumulate more mail as long as the total did not exceed >20M or whatever quota you felt comfortable with. Actually, I solved 99% of *this* problem for my AOL users simply by making DIGEST the default for all of my busy lists. It cut my "mailbox full" errors by a huge percentage (probably 80%), and I found out that large percentage of my users loved digest mode, and didn't even realize it existed, even though it's in the documentation... In general, I'm finding that about 10-12% of my users switch to individual messages. The rest stay in digest, either because they like it or because they don't know there are alternatives because they didn't read the instructions, but that latter group isn't complaining about it, either... And, frankly, DIGEST mode cuts down on my server load by a huge amount, too, so I can serve a lot more mail to a lot more people with less processing overhead. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:14:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14362 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA14193 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:55:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-193.his.com [205.252.121.193]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA18143; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:54:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mike Nolan's message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:28:24 -0600 (CST) <199702021728.LAA12221@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:25:59 -0500 To: Paul Graham , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:40 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Paul Graham wrote: >despite my profound annoyance at the way aol works at least their bounce >format can be trivially converted to dsn (so why don't they do it?). That change is already under development, and will hopefully arrive when the new Internet Mail gateway system goes into production. As for the current system, you have to pass back the DSN information out-of-bands to the MTA, and right now we have no way of doing that -- all the bounce text is generated on the back-end mainframe, and effectively sent out as a brand new message. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:16:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA15364 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA15357 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:06:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702022306.PAA15357@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7969; Sun, 02 Feb 97 23:59:47 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4704; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:59:45 +0100 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:49:53 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: List Managers In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0500 from Brad Knowles Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0500 Brad Knowles said: > If you now want to see if they're over a certain quantity of >mail, measured in bytes, instead of just slicing through the mailbox and >counting how long it takes you to get to the end, you now have to store >message size along with the pointer to the message, and run an >accumulated total as you're walking down that tree. It doesn't sound >like much, but do it tens of millions of times a day, and you'll quickly >accumulate a lot more CPU time than you thought possible. This is an implementation problem that can be solved in all sorts of ways, such as maintaining a "total size of mailbox" field in the mailbox header or whatever makes sense given your existing implementation. As one of my former bosses used to say when I explained that his latest bright idea wasn't going to work, "Stop! I don't want to hear any of that. This stuff is your job, not mine. My job is to decide if we can afford it, so just tell me who would have to work on it for how long and what hardware we would need to buy, and I'll give you an answer". > We'd probably have to add several dozen more terabytes of disk >storage (because the average mailbox size would grow *dramatically*), That's a valid argument, but you can charge extra for the service, or you can contain the growth by adding a higher per-message cap. To tell you the truth, I think most people would be happy with 1000-1500 total. It's just that if you divide 500 by the number of days in a long weekend, it's less than what most active lists produce a day. People then lose personal mail and get upset. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:19:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14354 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:56:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA14182 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-193.his.com [205.252.121.193]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA18106; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:53:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702021522.HAA20226@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0500 To: Eric Thomas , List Managers From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:11 AM -0500 2/2/1997, Eric Thomas wrote: >On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 01:55:42 -0500 Brad Knowles said: > >> Well, we already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit >>Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending attachments), >>this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox storage space > >I have no problem with that, however it would be really nice if people >were allowed to accumulate more mail as long as the total did not exceed >20M or whatever quota you felt comfortable with. Maybe even as a premium >service costing another $2/month or whatever. One problem, as I see it, is that it is easy to count how many messages are in someone's mailbox (just look at how many pointers they have to messages), and if they're over a certain number, then they've got a full mailbox. This is something you can do very quickly. If you now want to see if they're over a certain quantity of mail, measured in bytes, instead of just slicing through the mailbox and counting how long it takes you to get to the end, you now have to store message size along with the pointer to the message, and run an accumulated total as you're walking down that tree. It doesn't sound like much, but do it tens of millions of times a day, and you'll quickly accumulate a lot more CPU time than you thought possible. We'd probably have to add several dozen more terabytes of disk storage (because the average mailbox size would grow *dramatically*), and it takes a lot of work just trying to find space, power, and cooling for that kind of equipment. What it would cost to add this to the billing software is another matter -- we might need several dollars per month additional just to cover the overhead incurred by having to add this to our billing procedure (including the overhead of having to go through and count how many messages/how much space each of our eight million-plus users is taking up). I'll pass this on to our developers, but it's not something we could just drop in overnight. We might have to redesign the way we store our mailboxes, and would certainly have to not only get out from behind the current eight-ball, but get far enough ahead of it that we can then take a major performance hit (by adding this feature) and still be far enough ahead that we don't get behind it again. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:22:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14404 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA14259 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-193.his.com [205.252.121.193]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA18155; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:54:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:38:37 -0500 To: "E. Allen Smith" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:33 PM -0500 2/2/1997, E. Allen Smith wrote: > What proportion of _new_ (say, have used Internet email for less >than 3 months total) users does AOL have, both as a proportion of AOL users >and as a proportion of new users on the Internet? Numbers over the last three months, especially with regards to simply being on the Service versus actually making use of sending/receiving Internet mail, are statistics I don't have, and I don't know who would. We probably have some numbers somehwere of how many members we've added over the last three months, but I know that over the last six to nine months, we've added about three million users. > In other words, most people today can't figure something out from >simple pre-packaged information; they have to be hand-held. And with a >lot lower proportion of experienced to new users on AOL (and on the other >quickly-expanding services you mention below), the hand-holding doesn't >happen. The problem is that the Customer Service folks get the same kind of cluelessness and vitriol for virtually *everything*, as list-managers get when AOL users demand that they take time out of their busy schedule to solve their problems, because that's what they were put on this planet for. In fact, I suspect we see more of it, and in general, worse cases of it, than list-managers typically do. Less hand-holding certainly doesn't work, because then we get more cluelessness and vitriol that we aren't doing enough to help. More hand-holding certainly doesn't work, because then we get cluelessness and vitriol about the eleventy quadzillion other things we *didn't* fix when we added some new specific feature. So, what? Turn off the entire Service and send everyone home? Well, similar problems (perhaps not quite as bad, but certainly bad enough) exist on the Internet already, so why not just turn off the entire Internet and send everyone home -- that's just as valid a solution. In fact, since we know that virtually all of them are incapable of correcting that bloody little blinking "12:00" on their VCRs, why not just turn off the entire power grid for the whole world, and send everyone home? There has to be some sort of intermediate solution, but I haven't been able to come up with one, and I certainly haven't seen one get created to help solve the same kinds of problems as are pre-existant on the Internet already (otherwise we would have already adopted something similar on AOL). This is a tough problem, and so far, no one seems to have come up with any real solutions. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:26:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA14450 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA14375 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:56:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.16.65]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 17:55:14 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:55:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Feb 97 at 14:33, E. Allen Smith wrote: > In other words, most people today can't figure something out from > simple pre-packaged information; they have to be hand-held. And with a > lot lower proportion of experienced to new users on AOL (and on the other > quickly-expanding services you mention below), the hand-holding doesn't > happen. > Allen hits the nail right on the head with this one. Most people either can't figure out or just can't be bothered to make the attempt, even if they can. Whether politics has anything to do or not, it is a cultural problem. I doubt if there are any quick fixes. Anything more than short phrases or something like a Dave Letterman top ten list is too much trouble to read, understand, and then act upon. With the growth of Internet, written communication manifested itself on an unsuspecting public, raised on television. Web, initially an information treasure trove, made friendlier by hypertext and links, is slowly turning into yet another mindnumbing tv clone. My hopes that literacy would increase because of the net are being dashed. :-( Email is still a relic of the past, enforcing one to do archaic things - like actually reading textual matter and comprehending, creating command lines consisting of multiple words - some of them unspellable like SUBSCRIBE and even worse UNSUBSCRIBE. (Didn't we get away from the nasty MSDOS to avoid have to type such things? Don't even mention uniks) Either list manager software will get better in parsing, using AI, telepathy etc., or lists will soon be used by a few - rather like the book reading public. There will always be one. Volunteer list owners will probably cater only to this audience - the unwashed masses preferring to use point and click web based boards, IRC and such. After all, email has to be read and for participation, one has to actually write something. I think this is the reason that "chats" are more popular - it is more like small talk. No Zen like deep thoughts or large vocabulary required. :-) Looking at the current trends, free email lists may start to disappear, as MUAs get more TV like - multimedia MIME mail complete with animated, audible ad banners and neat boxes to fill your credit card number in. At best, there may be a cult following for discussion oriented lists, rather like the book buying public. What can I say, I am a pessimist too. May be because I am involved in the adult learning process as an occasional trainer. :-) Educating large masses of users who don't want to learn will be the challenge of the next millennium. Gess PS: I used to insist that subscribers learn to spell or cut and paste words like SUBSCRIBE or use available aliases like JOIN and LEAVE. But repeated usage of SUSCRIBE/SUSCRIVE and other creative spellings has forced me to accept all these, as a gesture towards being more "user-friendly". Now working on "GET ME OFF THIS STINKING LIST" and variations thereof. :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:28:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA16423 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA16365 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IEY7G1UD2S9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:17 EDT Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:17 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: brad@his.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01IEY7G1UD2S9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"brad@his.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"brad@his.com" "Brad Knowles" 2-FEB-1997 17:54:40.87 > We probably have some numbers somehwere of how many members we've >added over the last three months, but I know that over the last six >to nine months, we've added about three million users. Yeek... no wonder you're having problems. You have my distinct sympathies, given that it's the higher-up's fault and not yours that you've expanded too fast. > The problem is that the Customer Service folks get the same kind >of cluelessness and vitriol for virtually *everything*, as >list-managers get when AOL users demand that they take time out of >their busy schedule to solve their problems, because that's what they >were put on this planet for. In fact, I suspect we see more of it, >and in general, worse cases of it, than list-managers typically do. I'm not surprised by the latter, or, indeed, by the former. The Customer Service people have the problem that, indeed, they _are_ getting paid for taking the cluelessness and vitriol, so you've got a distinctly greater obligation to put up with it and help the users out. One wonders if putting in a limit on the amount of Customer Service time/email messages/whatever would work - or at least a limit on how much you'll do without further charges - with, of course, the exception of if AOL's doing something wrong and not the user. People shriek and scream about software companies doing that, but the companies in question seem to have no other choice. I wonder if rapidly-expanding online services may be the same way. I'd wonder how much of AOL's budget is currently going to _paying_ for Customer Service. In other words, I see an analogy between unlimited Internet hours and unlimited Customer Service. Both get overused for the capacity of the system. It's just that the capacity for the Customer Service system effectively includes the rest of the Internet... and thus that's what gets dumped on when it gets overloaded. How often does Customer Service get questions that should have gone to a list owner... or should have been resolved by reading a _non-AOL_ list's subscription information? > Less hand-holding certainly doesn't work, because then we get >more cluelessness and vitriol that we aren't doing enough to help. >More hand-holding certainly doesn't work, because then we get >cluelessness and vitriol about the eleventy quadzillion other things >we *didn't* fix when we added some new specific feature. I see the catch-22, yes. I wasn't proposing a simple solution... just a switch in priorities from things helpful to the likely-to-be-forever-clueless to things helpful for everyone. I'm not claiming that this will solve everything, merely that it _might_ help. > So, what? Turn off the entire Service and send everyone home? >Well, similar problems (perhaps not quite as bad, but certainly bad >enough) exist on the Internet already, so why not just turn off the >entire Internet and send everyone home -- that's just as valid a >solution. In fact, since we know that virtually all of them are >incapable of correcting that bloody little blinking "12:00" on their >VCRs, why not just turn off the entire power grid for the whole >world, and send everyone home? I certainly wasn't proposing the first; I'd prefer to see AOL keep existing, even with the problems, than it (and the other major internet providers) go out. For one thing, there are quite a lot of competent AOL users - some of them my friends and family. The same thing goes even more for the Internet in general and the power grid in general. > There has to be some sort of intermediate solution, but I haven't >been able to come up with one, and I certainly haven't seen one get >created to help solve the same kinds of problems as are pre-existant >on the Internet already (otherwise we would have already adopted >something similar on AOL). This is a tough problem, and so far, no >one seems to have come up with any real solutions. Yeah, I know. I sometimes think that, partially thanks to hype and partially thanks to real uses, the Internet in general is expanding too fast... not for its physical capacity (a la "The Death of the Internet... GIFs at 11"), but for its social capacity. The problem is how to expand that capacity and/or slow down the growth to a bearable rate. Chuq has proposed a few changes in the realm of this list, namely smarter servers with more intelligent error messages, improved list subscription, and improved list filtering. What are some others? -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:30:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA13764 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA13700 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:47 EDT Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:47 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"chuqui@plaidworks.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"chuqui@plaidworks.com" "Chuq Von Rospach" 2-FEB-1997 17:30:10.54 >I can't speak for AOL on this, but looking at the outside, I see a >*lot* of address churn from AOL. Folks sign up for AOL, and within a >few days/weeks/months, the account dies or I get mail saying "I have a >real address now, please change my subscription...." (real is my >editorial, but it's suprising how many are pretty close to that). There >*is* a strong case of AOL being a place people start and outgrow, from >what I see, or who show up, poke around, and go away again. That's about what I suspected. >There *is* a place that's worse than AOL on this show-up-and-disappear >churn. It's worldnet.att.com. I don't get a *lot* of subscriptions from >that place (which indicates it's not overly successful...), but I *can* >guarantee that almost all of the worldnet addresses that do sign up >don't seem to stay long. That indicates to me that service is not >terribly well liked by users, because I see lots of running for the >foxholes there. That's interesting in terms of Brad's worries re: AT&T proving net service for lots of people. As I mentioned, I doubt that they're going to provide enough _unnecessary_ handholding to cause too much of a problem... on the other hand, they also seem likely to be not providing even the _necessary_ handholding stuff. >> I would personally attribute this to A. failures in the educational >>system; >Don't necessarily blame AOL for this (or *just* AOL) -- first thing ANY >of my lsits do when someone signs up is send them instructions. If the >first thing *they* do is throw those instructions away unread, no >educational system AOL comes up with is going to make significant >inroads, either. As I like to say, throw a horse in the middle of the >river, and it'll still die of thirst if it refuses to to open it's damn >mouth... Whoops... I should have been clearer here. I was referring to the _US_ educational system; it seems to me to encourage this attitude, particularly in the public schools. (As I stated, I'm not as familiar with non-US educational systems, but I suspect the same is true in general.) >And let's also keep one thing in perspective: in general, we're talking >about the 1-2% of the list that causes problems. I'd say 90% compliance >is an easy target here, and on most lists, it's probably over 95%. It's >the very noisy few driving us crazy here, and some of them simply won't >be reachable no matter how many batteries you attach to your cattle >prod. Quite... and as lists get potentially larger as the Internet expands, this means there's going to be more of a problem, let alone the proportion-of-newbies problem I also mentioned. >We also need to keep in mind that we want to design systems that don't >*screw over* taht 95% of non-trouble-makers in search of a magical >solution for that last few percent who won't cooperate anyway... Let's >not make it tough for people who do behave, or turn them into >troublemakers -- shades of the good old days of software copy >protection that assumed all of us were pirates and made it hard to >actually USE the products legally... We need to keep the entire >situation in view, lest the cure be worse than the disease... Agreed. I'm not proposing making things _purposefully_ difficult in general, just that the large online services should focus less on user-friendliness and more on functioning well in other ways - including functioning better for users that know what they're doing, or at least are willing to learn. >Handholding, yes. Setting things up so people can fire up a drag racer >before they have their drivers license -- those are the problems you >need to watch out for in making things "easy", beacuse a few of those >people are going to fire up that drag racer and proceed to roll it over >into the grandstands. It's not *just* users taking themselves out, they >tend to take others with them. (if they just were to drive that drag >racer over a cliff, I'd call that "improving the gene pool".... grin) Chuckle... you might find the DARWIN-L list (on yorku.ca) amusing. It's largely stories of people doing exactly that - improving the gene pool by taking themselves out of it. >email mailbacks of subscription confirmations -- you don't get >subscribed until I get mail back saying you really wanted to. The >spammers have made that one necessary. It *also* gives me an >opportunity to force documentation into their faces before they go on >the lists, so there's no way they can claim they never saw anything. If >nothing else, this just gives me a firmer stance on being able to >enforce things, so there's less argument about people being kicked off. IIRC, the latest version of Majordomo does this, with a cookie. I'm not sure if it has that documentation included - that would be a good feature idea. >My lists have huge international audiences. In general, I have fewer >problems overseas, but it's not absolute. They generally have a higher >level of education, but language issues come into play, and frankly, >twits will be twits, whether they're American, Swedish, Finnish or >Italian. I get a few, but most of the problems I see in a place like >Italy are more language issues where maybe easier/simpler documentation >might help, while in Sweden where English is a priority second >language, most of my problems tend to be the occasional twit. Interesting. I wonder how much of it is that the higher level of education (probably due to more monetary resources needed to get on the 'net) and how much cultural differences resulting in less overt cluelessness/twitdom and more "suffering" in silence? >There are no easy answers. We've implemented all of those.... But that >doesn't mean we've done all we can... Good point. Noticeably, all the easy answers deal with things directly under our control; the more difficult stuff is dealing with the doings of others. -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:32:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA12787 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA12770 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id OAA21314; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:30:49 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:20:53 -0800 To: "E. Allen Smith" , brad@his.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:33 AM -0800 2/2/97, E. Allen Smith wrote: > What proportion of _new_ (say, have used Internet email for less >than 3 months total) users does AOL have, both as a proportion of AOL users >and as a proportion of new users on the Internet? I can't speak for AOL on this, but looking at the outside, I see a *lot* of address churn from AOL. Folks sign up for AOL, and within a few days/weeks/months, the account dies or I get mail saying "I have a real address now, please change my subscription...." (real is my editorial, but it's suprising how many are pretty close to that). There *is* a strong case of AOL being a place people start and outgrow, from what I see, or who show up, poke around, and go away again. If an AOL account lasts longer than about two months, it's likely to stick around a long time. But there's a lot of turnover early. There *is* a place that's worse than AOL on this show-up-and-disappear churn. It's worldnet.att.com. I don't get a *lot* of subscriptions from that place (which indicates it's not overly successful...), but I *can* guarantee that almost all of the worldnet addresses that do sign up don't seem to stay long. That indicates to me that service is not terribly well liked by users, because I see lots of running for the foxholes there. > I would personally attribute this to A. failures in the educational >system; Don't necessarily blame AOL for this (or *just* AOL) -- first thing ANY of my lsits do when someone signs up is send them instructions. If the first thing *they* do is throw those instructions away unread, no educational system AOL comes up with is going to make significant inroads, either. As I like to say, throw a horse in the middle of the river, and it'll still die of thirst if it refuses to to open it's damn mouth... And let's also keep one thing in perspective: in general, we're talking about the 1-2% of the list that causes problems. I'd say 90% compliance is an easy target here, and on most lists, it's probably over 95%. It's the very noisy few driving us crazy here, and some of them simply won't be reachable no matter how many batteries you attach to your cattle prod. We also need to keep in mind that we want to design systems that don't *screw over* taht 95% of non-trouble-makers in search of a magical solution for that last few percent who won't cooperate anyway... Let's not make it tough for people who do behave, or turn them into troublemakers -- shades of the good old days of software copy protection that assumed all of us were pirates and made it hard to actually USE the products legally... We need to keep the entire situation in view, lest the cure be worse than the disease... > Well, A. convince the marketing people not to expand so fast >(the recent debacle with expanding too fast in terms of hardware yeah, right... (grin) >they're thinking about things like this); and B. don't make things >so easy for within-service stuff. True. You *can* make things *too easy*. I've had to make some of my stuff a bit less convenient (my /listadmin/ web CGI form for instance, which I had to move to radio buttons and force people to make each subscription request separately. Why? Because too many users simply signed up for *everything*, and proceeded to drown in the onslaught of mail. It was too easy to get in trouble, so I had to make things a bit less easy to force them to make decisions instead of just pushing all the buttons and seeing what happens...) Sometimes it's as simple as putting the stuff behind a page that has the information you want them to read first. You go to the mailing list page on AOL, and before you can look at lists or subscribe to things, there's a page with things like "BEFORE YOU SIGN UP FOR MAILING LISTS" and "HOW TO GET HELP IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE WITH A MAILING LIST" pages of documentation. In large, purple blinking text. Even if they just skip past it, hopefully, some percentage will remember it's there so if they do get in trouble, they can find it again. It's a matter of presenting the information so that what you want them to see doesn't get lost in the sea of what they're looking for... This is something I'm investigating as I start my redesign of *my* stuff for the next generation. The ListADmin page is going to morph pretty seriously, I think, to better present data without huge globs of text nobody reads. Handholding, yes. Setting things up so people can fire up a drag racer before they have their drivers license -- those are the problems you need to watch out for in making things "easy", beacuse a few of those people are going to fire up that drag racer and proceed to roll it over into the grandstands. It's not *just* users taking themselves out, they tend to take others with them. (if they just were to drive that drag racer over a cliff, I'd call that "improving the gene pool".... grin) > Yeah. I'm worried about it too. I'm considering having >subscription by an approval-only process... and having the default My next system will do two things, guaranteed: email mailbacks of subscription confirmations -- you don't get subscribed until I get mail back saying you really wanted to. The spammers have made that one necessary. It *also* gives me an opportunity to force documentation into their faces before they go on the lists, so there's no way they can claim they never saw anything. If nothing else, this just gives me a firmer stance on being able to enforce things, so there's less argument about people being kicked off. all lists become at least semi-moderated. By semi-moderated, nothing gets posted unless one of two things is true: the user has been placed in the approved-poster list (which happens when the moderator agrees they have their act together and doesn't need to be watched; in general, this would mean they send mail requesting validation and that they've read and understood the rules of posting), or if a moderator sees and approves the mail. Users won't need to be approved, but they'd have to put up with delays. In reality, a big reason I'm heading to this is so that when I do run into a user who starts mucking with the list I can cut off automatic postings and force them to be approved on a message by message basis. Some users just won't cooperate with netiquette without an appropriate cattle prod, and this is the one I plan on using -- "good" posters won't have to go through the moderator, but anyone who's new, unproven or proven to cause problems will. Seems like a nice tradeoff, and it doesn't force the person who only posts once a month to go through the validation hassle.... And if you think about it, it'll stop those admin messages that might sneak through the server filters, because the folks who *do* post them won't know enough to get validated in the first place, so they show up in the moderator's pile instead.... >> You think eight million users creates a concentrated percentage >>of clueless users? Try 250 million, and that's just in the U.S. > > Yeah. I don't know if educational systems, politics, etcetera >in Europe, Japan, et al will be worse or better than the ones in the >US. My lists have huge international audiences. In general, I have fewer problems overseas, but it's not absolute. They generally have a higher level of education, but language issues come into play, and frankly, twits will be twits, whether they're American, Swedish, Finnish or Italian. I get a few, but most of the problems I see in a place like Italy are more language issues where maybe easier/simpler documentation might help, while in Sweden where English is a priority second language, most of my problems tend to be the occasional twit. Let's not forget that America's basically the only country that's proud of being monolingual. Most of Europe learns at least two languages, and in many instances, the second or third language is English. but I don't want to digress into american educational systems arguments..... >> Does anyone have any ideas? > > I'm sorry if I've been too discouraging, or too appearing of >trolling (I'm not, honest... not that such a claim does much good). There are no easy answers. We've implemented all of those.... But that doesn't mean we've done all we can... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 15:58:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA18289 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:36:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA18282 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id PAA22259; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:35:51 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301723.MAA25768@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:11:11 -0800 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dr. Manion: I'm curious. Since you're so down on AOL and how it doesn't contribute to teh net (or what it does contirubte you choose to not value, a very different thing...) What have YOU and your group contributed to the net such that you can lob stones at AOL's glass house and feel virtuous about it? Your name and organization don't ring a bell to me. Why have you made the internet such a better place that you can dump on AOL from a position of righteousness? Or is this a case of "don't do what I do, do what I say?" Because I can name a lot of things AOL's put time and energy into -- I'd like to know what *you've* done along those lines as well, so I can be appropriately impressed about your knowledge and contributions to us. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:10:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20848 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA20591 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-218.his.com [205.252.121.218]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA23582; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:56:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01IEY7G1UD2S9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:50:07 -0500 To: "E. Allen Smith" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:17 PM -0500 2/2/1997, E. Allen Smith wrote: > I'd wonder how much of AOL's budget is >currently going to _paying_ for Customer Service. They are 4500 employees out of probably 5500 or 6000 total by now. They are far-and-away the biggest part of the company. We're paying *big* bucks to do the best we can for Customer Service. > How often does Customer Service get questions that >should have gone to a list owner... or should have been resolved >by reading a _non-AOL_ list's subscription information? I don't work in customer service, so I don't know those numbers. I suspect it's quite high, but I also know that we get a lot of those "Why doesn't my foot pedal work?" or "Why did your f**^&*&%^*&$g system stop working, and what the hell is this damn "0/1" switch anyway?" type questions. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:14:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20679 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA20553 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA22784; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA07525; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:57:59 -0500 Message-ID: <19970202185759.OD09149@smoe.org> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:57:59 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Cc: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith), brad@his.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) References: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from "Chuq Von Rospach" on Feb 2, 1997 14:20:53 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > email mailbacks of subscription confirmations -- you don't get > subscribed until I get mail back saying you really wanted to. The > spammers have made that one necessary. It *also* gives me an > opportunity to force documentation into their faces before they go on > the lists, so there's no way they can claim they never saw anything. If > nothing else, this just gives me a firmer stance on being able to > enforce things, so there's less argument about people being kicked off. I implemented confirmations after one of my lists was abused repeatedly as a weapon-of-mass-subscription. I've found that it has the nice side effect of weeding out people who can't follow instructions. Of the 106 people with pending subscriptions, 25% are from AOL. And the majority of those are older than 24 hours (pending confirmations are valid for 2 weeks). -jeff From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:27:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22146 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA22103 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-218.his.com [205.252.121.218]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA24680; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:09:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:08:20 -0500 To: "E. Allen Smith" , chuqui@plaidworks.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:47 PM -0500 2/2/1997, E. Allen Smith wrote: > IIRC, the latest version of Majordomo does this, with a >cookie. I'm not sure if it has that documentation included - that would >be a good feature idea. I believe that Majordomo borrowed that idea from Listserv. You can also add to that a requirement that the list manager approve all subscriptions, and with that kind of system in place, it's going to be hard for people to get through if they aren't sufficiently literate and intelligent (which would eliminate all junkmailers, too). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:30:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA20372 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA20341 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-218.his.com [205.252.121.218]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA23589; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:56:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702022306.PAA15357@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:22:05 -0500 from Brad Knowles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:44 -0500 To: Eric Thomas , List Managers From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:49 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Eric Thomas wrote: >This is an implementation problem that can be solved in all sorts of >ways, such as maintaining a "total size of mailbox" field in the mailbox >header or whatever makes sense given your existing implementation. Then you've got to update that number every time you insert a new message, delete an old one, etc.... The same amount of work would be required, though. >That's a valid argument, but you can charge extra for the service, or you >can contain the growth by adding a higher per-message cap. To tell you >the truth, I think most people would be happy with 1000-1500 total. It's >just that if you divide 500 by the number of days in a long weekend, it's >less than what most active lists produce a day. People then lose personal >mail and get upset. 1000 or 1500 might be fine for now, but I guarantee you that it wouldn't last -- probably a month or two, then people would start subscribing to even more high-traffic lists (because now the problem doesn't happen any more) and then we're right back where we were. If more people subscribed to digests for everything, this problem would be virtually non-existant. Maybe that should be part of your test to see if someone should be allowed to do more advanced things -- can they figure out how to get themselves switched from digest mode to reflector mode (and figure out how to deal with the consequences when it blows up in their face)? -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:33:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA23751 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:20:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA23708 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:20:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702030020.QAA23708@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8395; Mon, 03 Feb 97 01:13:34 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 5858; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:13:34 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 01:02:58 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: List Managers In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:44 -0500 from Brad Knowles Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:44 -0500 Brad Knowles said: > 1000 or 1500 might be fine for now, but I guarantee you that it >wouldn't last -- probably a month or two, then people would start >subscribing to even more high-traffic lists (because now the problem >doesn't happen any more) and then we're right back where we were. No because there's a limit to how much e-mail people are willing to read per day. I'm not saying it wouldn't go past 1000 or 1500, but at some point it would very definitely stop expanding. > If more people subscribed to digests for everything, this >problem would be virtually non-existant. Yeah but digests are so much trouble that I wouldn't even dream of this. There are just too many people with accounts at ISPs that can't handle a HUGE 50k digest. Sometimes they dump the whole message on the floor, sometimes they cut it in the middle. The users expect you to know why and be able to fix it. Sure, you can lower the digest size to 10k, but then people who have a real e-mail account complain that they want to get 1-2 digests per day, not 10. Or you can make the digest size configurable at a significant resource cost, and you're left with clueless people who don't know how to reduce or increase the default value, as the case might be (there is no direct relationship between the cluelessness of the user and that of the ISP). Personally I'd rather get 1000 bounces a day as a result of not using digest by default than 20 complaints a day about missing digests. I can program my computer to take care of the bounces, in fact I now use probing on most of the lists I run and I don't see any bounce, and in the next version of LISTSERV transparent probing will be the default and everything will happen under the hood where it belongs, you'll just need a bit more horsepower than when you do all the processing manually. Between that and the major players (like AOL) moving to DSN, I think bounces will soon be a problem of the past. But when people ask about their digest, I can't have the computer answer for me, not today and probably not in 10 years either. So, on the lists I run, I make sure digest is not the default option so that it is only used by people who will know how to turn it off. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:36:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA17622 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:31:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA17597 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-207.his.com [205.252.121.207]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA21307; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:29:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701301723.MAA25768@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:09:09 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:26 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >ROFL! >Again, I see that AOL doesn't want to take responsibility. "Well, if >you were as big as us -- you couldn't do anything either!" ROFL! I'm saying that it is acknowledged as a very tough problem, and by a lot of people I consider to be fairly knowledgable in the area. Some of those people work at AOL, many don't. When there is good consensus that a problem is hard, no amount of whining on your part is going to help solve it. You've got to make an actual contribution. I haven't seen that from you. I guarantee you that AOL will implement whatever solutions we can to this problem as soon as we can, but that means that the solutions have to be invented by someone, and although we've got some pretty sharp people, we certainly don't have the corner on experts. As soon as solutions (partial or otherwise) present themselves (or as soon as we can come up with them on our own), we'll feed them to our developers for implementation. It's that simple. But, we're not Microsoft. We can't buy the entire Internet, and declare all of it's problems solved overnight because you will now only be allowed to connect using Microsoft products. It just doesn't work that way, and if that's the kind of magical overnight solution you want for your problems, please go dream somewhere else. The rest of us have real work to do. >Again, illusions of gradeur. You assume AOL is "needed". It's not. >The Internet was here before AOL and it will be here after after AOL >follows the way of Prodigy, Genie and others. AOL may or may not survive. Whether it does is irrelevant. We are here now, and the whole Internet has some very hard problems to solve, and since we're the biggest kid on the block, that means we have more of that problem to solve than anyone else, but that doesn't mean that we have any more answers to that problem than anyone else. The whole Internet community is going to have to solve this problem, whether we can find a solution for our part of it or not. If the whole Internet community (AOL included) can come up with some improvements, I'm sure that one way or another, they will get shared and copied around so that everyone can benefit (reverse engineer them, if you have to). If you want to be a part of this solution, please do so. Otherwise, you're part of the problem, and you should get out of the way. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 16:40:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA17680 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA17636 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:31:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-207.his.com [205.252.121.207]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA21370; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:30:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701311712.MAA24038@itw.com> References: from "Brad Knowles" at Jan 30, 1997 09:17:26 AM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:20:54 -0500 To: rsk@itw.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:12 PM -0500 1/31/1997, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >Brad Knowles writes: >> Check the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. That wouldn't get written >>without their support. > >While I find the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ eminently useful, and am very >glad that it exists, there's no doubt in my mind that it would exist >even if AOL never had. It's too necessary not to. See my previous comments. I guarantee you that it would have died on the vine. There simply was zero interest in keeping the thing up to date, until I took the thing over. Were I to let it go now, it probably would survive, but not if I'd done so back then. >I know, I see them. But it's my impression that some/many of those >resources, such as the list you mentioned about SGML, are provided >by people who happen to be at AOL, not by AOL. AOL pays for the hardware, including the power, space, cooling, etc.... AOL pays the paychecks of its employees, and some of us tend to be pretty activist towards certain types of things, and that's part of why we were hired, and that is officially considered part (or all) of our job while at AOL. It's part of my official job description, if nothing else. I'd say that this qualifies as AOL providing the resources. Ultimately, everything is done by people, of course -- people wrote Unix, people wrote the HTML spec, people wrote programs to be used by other people to do things like surf the 'net. Ultimately, everything is done by people, directly or indirectly. What you have to look at is who is paying them, do they do this kind of thing on company time, was it part of the reason they got hired? If the answers to all those questions are "Yes", then it seems to me that the company is providing the resources through the people it has chosen to hire and the work it expects them to do. >For example, not implementing poorly-thought-out mail filtering >or screwing up HTTP 1.1 support would be a good start [see attached ASCII >document] and respecting work done by non-AOLers (meaning leaving >copyrighted work intact including all attributions, so that it's easily >distinguishable from AOL's own work) would be nice. The mail filtering I can address -- this issue is being forwarded to our developers. The HTTP support I can't, especially since we're integrating commercial software to provide the web browser function. That would have to be directed at the people who implement the web browser we are integrating. As for respecting copyrighted work, I'm not aware of the specific instances which you mention. As a FAQ maintainer myself, I can guarantee you that I would be quite upset if someone did something like that to me, and I can also assure you that if anyone at AOL is doing something like this, I am not the only person who would be very upset, and we would all work to get this offender recalibrated. Give me details, and I'll knock down doors (no matter who they belong to). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:10:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA28345 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA28327 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id RAA24718; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:01:52 -0800 X-Sender: errors@solutions.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970202185759.OD09149@smoe.org> References: ; from "Chuq Von Rospach" on Feb 2, 1997 14:20:53 -0800 <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:57:37 -0800 To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko), chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith), brad@his.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:57 PM -0800 2/2/97, Jeff Wasilko wrote: >I've found that it has the nice side effect of weeding out people >who can't follow instructions. Of the 106 people with pending >subscriptions, 25% are from AOL. And the majority of those are >older than 24 hours (pending confirmations are valid for 2 >weeks). Either that, or are being spammed onto your lists, and this at least saves you the trouble of dealing with them. I've been watching the spammers using my site pretty closely, and it's clear that somewhere out there is some set of instructions, because these guys are using some obsolete information about my site that makes it easy to track them and undo their damage. I'm looking forward to when I can just shut down the loophole completely. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:15:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA27367 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from f18.hotmail.com (F18.hotmail.com [207.82.250.29]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA27268 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by f18.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA06466; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:52:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:52:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702030052.QAA06466@f18.hotmail.com> Received: from 207.92.151.117 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 16:52:03 PST From: "Brian Axe" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Entrepreneur looking for mailing list / website developer in the SF Bay area Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been reading the digest for a while now and am impressed by the amount of expertise of the individuals partaking in the List-Managers-Digest. I am starting a business on the Web that has a high dependency on mailing lists and am looking for a developer/programmer to work closely with me on a part time basis. For over a year, I have been working as product manager for a venture backed, consumer website that was just voted as one of the top web sites for 1996 (only 7 were chosen) by Business Week. I have obtained a wealth of knowledge about the key success factors (marketing, interface design, operations) of a website. This coupled with my hands-on skills (Unix, HTML, light cgi programming…) allow me to produce a design specification/prototype that only requires "back-end" development. Lastly, I was a teaching assistant for the technology entrepreneurship class while at graduate school at Stanford and have developed an invaluable network of friends and colleagues. The first phase of my roll-out plan requires around 40 hrs of development/programming. I am looking for a long term partner that will help develop the mailing list engine and cgi generated pages as well as perform ongoing technical support. Since I am looking for a partner, not a contractor, I am offering equity in the company as compensation. At the end of 2 years, I estimate that the 2 years of vested equity could very easily be worth $500K-1M. This is an opportunistic time to join with me. Ideal candidates will have: a BSCS, created applications using Sendmail, C/C++ and Perl in a UNIX environment, and web development & web server experience. If interested, please contact me at your earliest convenience via email. It is a firm requirement that you be located in the SF Bay Area. Brian Axe brianaxe@hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:40:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA00952 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unidial.com ([206.112.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA00870 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by mail.unidial.com (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id UAA22368; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:22:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Stale horror from AOL To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:17:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 02:07:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9702022017.aa01013@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Brad Knowles: > > Yup, it would. And it will. We've been working on this > replacement system for several months now, and it's finally getting > to the point where we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Can we help with testing and certification? Might be in our own best interests if we had a chance to give feedback or whatever before eight million of our subscribers start using it... -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:44:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA29268 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA29247 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id RAA24924; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:13:07 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702030020.QAA23708@miles.greatcircle.com> References: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:54:44 -0500 from Brad Knowles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:11:22 -0800 To: Eric Thomas , List Managers From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:02 PM -0800 2/2/97, Eric Thomas wrote: >Yeah but digests are so much trouble that I wouldn't even dream of this. Not on my site, and not with my users. Personally, I don't use them, but I know for a fact my user base loves them, once they're clued into their existance. And I have little to no trouble with sites accepting them. Of course, I'm careful to keep my digests under 30K, except in very rare cases. Are you sure you aren't letting your personal attitude towards digests color how you think your users view them? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:47:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA29005 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:11:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA28998 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id UAA13402; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:06:21 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Date: 2 Feb 1997 20:06:21 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 24 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5d3dmd$d2n@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad Knowles writes: >At 6:26 AM -0500 1/30/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >>ROFL! >>Again, I see that AOL doesn't want to take responsibility. "Well, if >>you were as big as us -- you couldn't do anything either!" ROFL! > If you want to be a part of this solution, please do so. >Otherwise, you're part of the problem, and you should get out of the >way. Seconded. AOL certianly has its problems, but you know, it's gotten a helluva lot more responsive in the last few years. No small part of that is due to the work of folks like Brad Knowles. By contrast, you've offered repeated derision and bragging about your two years on the internet. Well golly, I am impressed. Come back in eight years, and you'll still be ten years behind Brad, Chuq, or me. If you have something useful to offer, do so. If not, kindly shut up while the rest of us figure out if we can do anything to help Brad. -- ``Truman Capote has made lying an art. A minor art.'' -- Gore Vidal, on Truman Capote From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:52:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA02909 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unidial.com ([206.112.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA02889 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:39:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by mail.unidial.com (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id UAA22834; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:38:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:33:59 -0500 (EST) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 03:00:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9702022033.aa08893@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Brad Knowles: > > But, taking my AOL hat off now, how would you educate a large > user community like this? I mean, the average Usenet poster seems > quite clueless enough (give most of the posts I've read and personal Just brainstorming here... but how about making them take an interactive test, like a driver's certification test? Set it up so they can't send note 1 on the internet unless they can answer ten questions correctly about addressing, etiquette, Good Times, pyramid schemes, chain letters, unsolicited advertising, and unsubscribing from lists. Set it up so they can't send note 1 to usenet without answering a similar set of ten questions about it. Make it hyper-linked to the appropriate FAQ so they can look up the answer if they don't know it, an open-book test; automate it so if they miss one, it asks something similar a few questions later, and won't let them through until they can answer ALL ten questions (or get whatever the minimum score is out of however many questions they finally get asked). Or how about an interactive routine with audio that says "raise your right hand and repeat after me: I promise not to pass on notes about the Good time virus or other unsubstantiated rumors; I promise not to participate in chain letters; I promise not to send unsolicited commercial mail; ..." Make it into a game. With all of AOL's resources, you ought to be able to come up with something... From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:55:52 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA03989 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA03958 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:46:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA10809; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:41:33 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199702030141.RAA10809@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Stale horror from AOL To: mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org (Merrill Cook) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) Cc: brad@his.com, kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9702022017.aa01013@pcusa01.ecunet.org> from "Merrill Cook" at Feb 2, 97 08:17:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Merrill Cook wrote: > >From Brad Knowles: > > Yup, it would. And it will. We've been working on this > > replacement system for several months now, and it's finally getting > > to the point where we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. > Can we help with testing and certification? > Might be in our own best interests if we had a chance to give > feedback or whatever before eight million of our subscribers start > using it... There's probably information on how to apply for jobs at AOL at the following website: http://www.aol.com/ --Kynn From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 17:59:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA03760 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:44:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA03659 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-218.his.com [205.252.121.218]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA02852; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:42:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9702022017.aa01013@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 02:07:53 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:41:33 -0500 To: "Merrill Cook" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Stale horror from AOL Cc: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca, list-managers@greatcircle.com, knowlesb@aol.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:17 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Merrill Cook wrote: >>From Brad Knowles: >> >> Yup, it would. And it will. We've been working on this >> replacement system for several months now, and it's finally getting >> to the point where we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. > >Can we help with testing and certification? > >Might be in our own best interests if we had a chance to give >feedback or whatever before eight million of our subscribers start >using it... Good idea. We've already got it up and running in an unpublished test mode, with the idea that we'd do whatever testing we could think of. We'll certainly add testing with various mailing list management packages as well. If anyone is interested in testing this stuff with us, please drop me a note at my work email address (knowlesb@aol.net). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 18:02:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id RAA04210 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA04133 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:47:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702030147.RAA04133@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8728; Mon, 03 Feb 97 02:40:04 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 6528; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:40:04 +0100 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 02:07:07 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: List Managers In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:11:22 -0800 from Chuq Von Rospach Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:11:22 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach said: >Are you sure you aren't letting your personal attitude towards digests >color how you think your users view them? But I have not commented on whether or not my users like digests! Since I always offer digests, and since I was speaking about lists I run in my spare time, I just don't think it's relevant; they can have it their way whether I use them myself or not on this or that particular list, and if they don't like the defaults I chose they can go start their own list. What I said is that users who are getting digests give me more trouble as a whole, even though they're a minority, because answering questions from human beings about why they didn't get this or that digest takes me a lot more time than auto-processing bounces. Digests are also dangerous with newbies. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them not to quote the whole digest when replying, they'll do it anyway. You'll add code to detect this and reject the posting, but it doesn't matter because they'll find a new MUA that mangles the quoted message in such a way (for instance a uuencoded "attachment" or maybe rewriting the header in X.400 or proprietary format) that they'll manage to quote it anyway. And even if you succeed (or add a posting size limit so they *really* can't quote the whole thing back), they'll write to ask how come they can't post to the list, and you'll have to explain that the reply function isn't the only way to post to a list, after which they'll ask you which menu you are talking about and helpfully indicate that they are using a Gateway in case it makes any difference. In a professional environment this may all be fine and well, but when I run a list in my spare time I don't want to do user support. I do enough of this at work, thank you very much :-) So they get the regular subscription option that doesn't confuse them and I have my bounces auto-processed and keep being a happy camper. I'm not saying this is Better, I'm saying it saves me time. Maybe if I were running my lists on 1991 hardware or if I had to read every single bounce myself at 2400bps I would set things up differently, but that's another story. Obviously this also depends on who your audience is and what mail software they use. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 18:25:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA08666 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:09:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA08499 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:08:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.192.38.78] (empnet46.empnet.com [208.192.38.78]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA03604 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:07:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:05:43 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford) Subject: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This list seems to allow a fair amount of editorial content on the part of the members, so I'd like to raise two related issues. Since many of the members of this list may be directly affected, hopefully you won't all flame me for wasting bandwidth. :^} If you don't think this is list-related but do have an opinion, feel free to reply directly to me and I'll summarize later. 1. [Email Charging] Bob Metcalfe, (inventor of Ethernet and co-founder of 3COM, thinks the internet is due for serious brownouts - thousands of people unable to get access for hours at a time) One of his recommendations, which would also "fix" the economics of email, is to charge on a per-piece and/or routed mileage basis for all email. Actually, he recommends it for all traffic, but let's stick to email here. 2. [Local Access] The FCC is considering allowing local phone companies to charge ISPs as much as 1.5 to 2 cents per minute (90 cents to $1.20 per hour) for line access, which would no doubt be passed on to the user. [I note that Bill Gates seems to be in favor of this.] According to Webweek magazine (www.webweek.com), the FCC has installed an email address for _informal_ comments on this issue at isp@fcc.gov. Deadline for _formal_ comments is 2/21. All formal comments will be posted at www.fcc.gov/isp.html For my part, I think that local telephone competition and fast-connect technologies such as ISDN should make question #2 obsolete, unless they manage to get it through FCC before the technology and market deal with it. end ======= Gary Bickford, FXT Corporation http://www.fxt.com System integration, active web site design, intranets. garyb@fxt.com 541-923-3060 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 18:41:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA12528 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA12451 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:30:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id VAA22935 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA09781; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:29:24 -0500 Message-ID: <19970202212739.LS51352@smoe.org> Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:27:40 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) References: ; <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from "Chuq Von Rospach" on Feb 2, 1997 16:57:37 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 3:57 PM -0800 2/2/97, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > >who can't follow instructions. Of the 106 people with pending > >subscriptions, 25% are from AOL. And the majority of those are > >older than 24 hours (pending confirmations are valid for 2 > > Either that, or are being spammed onto your lists, and this at least > saves you the trouble of dealing with them. I've been watching the > spammers using my site pretty closely, and it's clear that somewhere No, fortunatly the mailbombers only abuse one of my lists, and they only target addresses in Indonesia (medannet.com and indo.com currently, and idola.net in the past). The stats I quoted above were for all of the other lists I host. In other useless statistics, AOL members represent around 20% of the subscribers on lists hosted here... -Jeff From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 19:10:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA17994 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:59:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unidial.com (mail.unidial.com [206.112.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA17978 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by mail.unidial.com (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id VAA02042; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:57:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:53:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 08:53:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9702022153.aa18302@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From Brad Knowles: > > However, taking off my AOL hat again, this doesn't solve the > larger problem -- what about other places (like WebTV, AT&T WorldNet, > etc...) that have similar problems, and what about educating the > general Internet community at large? I mean, we've already got the If AOL or listmanagers or someone can come up with a prototype that works, maybe everyone will adopt it, or at least those that care, and the rest can be on the restrict_post list. There may be several ways of doing it... I agree with you that anything as big as AOL is going to have to solve some of the same problems. Since no one has done it yet, I hope AOL figures something out. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 19:14:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA17803 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:57:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA17782 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:57:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id VAA14100; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:52:56 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Date: 2 Feb 1997 21:52:56 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 24 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5d3ju8$doh@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford) writes: >1. [Email Charging] Bob Metcalfe, (inventor of Ethernet and >co-founder of 3COM, thinks the internet is due for serious brownouts - >thousands of people unable to get access for hours at a time) One of his >recommendations, which would also "fix" the economics of email, is to >charge on a per-piece and/or routed mileage basis for all email. Actually, >he recommends it for all traffic, but let's stick to email here. Metcalfe, otherwise brilliant guy tho he might be, is full of it. Yes, there may be `brownouts'. AOL is suffering them right now. Any ISP that hasn't been able to expand capacity commeasurate with demand is going to have them. But per-message or per-packet charges? Hah. This debate happened years and years ago, and most of us refuse to walk thru that swamp again. Every schema envisioned has been so full of holes that it was discarded before reaching even the experimental stage. As I say, Metcalfe is a brilliant guy. But with this one, he just hasn't thought it thru. -- ``Truman Capote has made lying an art. A minor art.'' -- Gore Vidal, on Truman Capote From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 19:25:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA18978 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA18960 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id TAA27129; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:28 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5d3dmd$d2n@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:52:45 -0800 To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:06 PM -0800 2/2/97, Steve Simmons wrote: >Come back in >eight years, and you'll still be ten years behind Brad, Chuq, or me. Ten years? Lightweight. My first e-mail address had .ARPA attached, and I'm damn proud of it. I started running netnews sites in 1980, and have been running mailing lists and news sites (or both) since.... Of course, all that means is that it's damn hard to get rid of me, not that I know anything... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 19:28:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA18997 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA18979 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id TAA27131; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:12:31 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:58:23 -0800 To: garyb@outlawnet.com (Gary Bickford), List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:05 PM -0800 2/2/97, Gary Bickford wrote: >1. [Email Charging] Bob Metcalfe, (inventor of Ethernet and >co-founder of 3COM, thinks the internet is due for serious brownouts - Yawn. Death of the net predicted. Hey, I did that for the first time about 1976 or so. And kept doing it for about ten years, hoping to eventually be right. People have been doing the same about Apple since 1984, too... (grin). >thousands of people unable to get access for hours at a time) Ooh. Major problem. Like, hours at a time! maybe it'll help us all get a life again.. (grin). Actually, I'm making fun of a serious issue here, but think about what we're saying. When FedEx isn't fast enough, then we have a real problem in our priority set... > One of his >recommendations, which would also "fix" the economics of email, is to >charge on a per-piece and/or routed mileage basis for all email. Actually, >he recommends it for all traffic, but let's stick to email here. Under current paradigms, impractical. If you gol to a situation where data is placed out in some common data stream and users have some access method (intelligent agents and/or avatars) to go and pull it out, then paying royalties on access becomes practical. I think that's a laudable system to move towards -- we focus so much on transport layer issues and the like, and far too little on how to turn huge amounts of data into usable *information* as each individual user defines it. but we're a paradigm shift or two away from taht... >2. [Local Access] The FCC is considering allowing local phone >companies to charge ISPs as much as 1.5 to 2 cents per minute (90 cents to >$1.20 per hour) for line access, which would no doubt be passed on to the >user. [I note that Bill Gates seems to be in favor of this.] Against it, but this is simply a money grab, not really a technological issue. Someone sees smoeone else making money, and figures that it's easier to go grab a piece of that instead of trying to make money themselves directly. (insert editorial comment on society here. You can guess what it is...) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:11:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25257 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [207.33.130.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id UAA25239 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 207.33.130.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [207.33.130.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.7.5/mcb-960422) with SMTP id UAA12943; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:06:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <32F56484.1CEC@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:07:45 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL References: <5d3dmd$d2n@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steve Simmons wrote: > Seconded. AOL certianly has its problems, but you know, it's gotten > a helluva lot more responsive in the last few years. No small part of > that is due to the work of folks like Brad Knowles. > > By contrast, you've offered repeated derision and bragging about your > two years on the internet. Well golly, I am impressed. Come back in > eight years, and you'll still be ten years behind Brad, Chuq, or me. > If you have something useful to offer, do so. If not, kindly shut up > while the rest of us figure out if we can do anything to help Brad. Very well put, Steve. I think I've learned more in the last day or so from Brad's postings about AOL in specific, and administering very large systems in general, than in quite a while. Can we now move on, folks? -- Michael C. Berch (ARPANet class of '77, Usenet class of '81) mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:18:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA23639 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id TAA23604 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:56:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA17422 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.16.65]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 Feb 1997 18:28:49 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:28:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I thought it was hilarious that I found this in my list admin alias, immediately after I sent off a post about folks not reading stuff sent to them. Here is an example. Happens to be AOL subscriber, but this is merely coincidental. Scenario: I send detailed instructions on the 1st and the 15th on admin commands, how to get off, etiquettes and so forth. Yesterday was the 1st. Occasionally, unsub command instructions are included as part of the distributed message itself. Each message also has instructions in headers, which is largely useless, I have to admit. I have changed message id and user name to protect the innocent. I also filter commands sent to the list address, which generates a help message back to the sender. This person repeatedly sends the SAME commands to the list address and obviously does NOT read the help message from the bot. For brevity, I have deleted other headers added by the list manager software before it routed the message to me. The message was processed for distribution, but sent to me for approval because of offensive word filtering. But it illustrates the problem we face. Gess --------------- Received: by earthchannel.com (Aurora/32 Professional 3.0 (NT-10000008)) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:01:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970202145627_XXX@emout04.mail.aol.com> From: X@aol.com To: AMK Developers' List Subject: Submit subscription X-Reminder-1: >> Send articles to: AMKDEV@earthchannel.com X-Reminder-2: >> Send server commands to Mail-Server@earthchannel.com X-Reminder-3: >> Signoff command is: SIGNOFF AMKDEV X-Reminder-4: >> To get a list of commands, command is: HELP Submit Unsubscribe From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:25:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA23559 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id TAA23549 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:56:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (www.ecentral.com [204.227.4.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA28220 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:10:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.227.4.24 (ppp45.ecentral.com [204.227.4.85]) by www.ecentral.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA19857 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:07:11 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32F4E77A.22D6@ecentral.com> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 12:14:02 -0700 From: Cindy Stanley Reply-To: connect@ecentral.com Organization: Unschooling List X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Clueless Subscribers References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote (in part): > And the responses I got back from AOL made it clear these folks don't > know how to operate the machinery. Period. Despite my system sending > instructions on subscription, and re-sending them to the list every two > weeks, these people in many cases had no clue how to unsubscribe, had > no clue how to get help, never bothered to read any of the > instructions, don't know basics like e-mailing postmaster for help -- > nothing. And when the information *is* presented to them, there's a > high level of simply choosing to ignore it, doing what they want, and > assuming it'll work anyway. Sad as it is, I got a really good laugh while reading this. It is OH-SO-TRUE! But, I must also add that these problems are not just limited to AOLers. Clueless subscribers are *everywhere*. Just in the past month for example I have had bounces from: * 2 former university employees who repeatedly tried to use their now nonexistent email accounts to attempt to subscribe (and subscribe and subscribe, and then complain to me about it - all from an address I can't use to reply to them). * 20 or so addresses from juno.com with full mailboxes (50% have had this same problem before) * 15 or so addresses from netcom.com with full mailboxes (40% repeat problem) * 25 or so addresses from various, smaller ISPs with full mailboxes (50% repeat problem) * 14 folks who have changed servers, resubscribed with their new address, but never unsubbed their old address * 131 mangled "unsub me (or) change me over to the digest" requests, all sent to the wrong address (mine or the list's, rather than Majordomo's) * 12 "help me, I don't know how to reply to mail/how to change my preferences/how to create a sig file, etc. etc. etc. laments) My list has only 300 or so subscribers. I just can't imagine how crazy this situation must get for those with thousands of subscribers! Brad Knowles then wrote in response to Chuq's comments: > We clearly need to educate our users better. > > But, taking my AOL hat off now, how would you educate a large > user community like this? I mean, the average Usenet poster seems > quite clueless enough (give most of the posts I've read and personal > email messages I get from people asking me to solve their problem for > them), and quite incapable of reading the amazingly complete and > accurate array of information that can be found in the FAQ archives. > I mean, you can lead a user to the FAQ Archives, but you can't make > them drink from the Font of Knowledge or the Well of Wisdom. > > As a guy who sees the FAQ he currently maintains growing ad > infinitum (as I dumb it down further and further, to try and answer > more and more basic questions), I'm beginning to get quite > disheartened here. I think Brad has hit the nail on the head here. How *do* we educate these people? I also keep dumbing down my list's Welcome Message to include more basic information. I've even added in URLs that really explain the basics in detail. Using the Net for private email and/or mailing lists is really not all that difficult, IMHO. But, no matter how much info you provide the newbies with, you can't *make* them read it. Or can you? Cindy Unschooling List Mom Aurora, Colorado connect@ecentral.com ~' `, )" o-)O \ \'''"/ \_ ,,} ) woof! '',,,,, , || || We learn from history "--'"--' that we do not learn anything from history. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:40:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA28645 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:32:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id UAA28505 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id SAA10575 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IEYDPB6DXM9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:17 EDT Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:17 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01IEYDPB6DXM9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org" "Merrill Cook" 2-FEB-1997 21:12:39.36 >On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message >to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list >owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To >unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply >to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the >message we give. >Sounds like a recipe for cluelessness and dependence to me. Hmm... this is definitely true for _subscribe_ messages, but I'm not sure if it is true for _unsubscribe_ messages... after all, those at least get the person off of the list. (Whether those unsubscribed to the list in question can post to it does influence this, of course... I wonder how well _not_ unsubscribing them, but just adding them to a block list would work?) -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:45:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA28657 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id UAA28620 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.unidial.com ([206.112.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA09613 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 18:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [206.115.64.2]) by mail.unidial.com (NTR*NET 2.1.0) with SMTP id VAA00327; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:10:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:06:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Merrill Cook" Cc: brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> from "E. Allen Smith" at Feb 2, 97 02:33:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9702022106.aa23532@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From E. Allen Smith: > > I would personally attribute this to A. failures in the educational > system; B. liberals busily trying to make sure (and succeeding in convincing On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the message we give. Sounds like a recipe for cluelessness and dependence to me. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 20:52:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA28391 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id UAA28367 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id RAA28185 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id RAA24720; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:01:54 -0800 X-Sender: errors@solutions.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:59:24 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , "E. Allen Smith" , chuqui@plaidworks.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:08 PM -0800 2/2/97, Brad Knowles wrote: >You >can also add to that a requirement that the list manager approve all >subscriptions, God forbid. Solutions.apple.com processed almost 1,100 admin commands yesterday alone, about half of them coming from me on cleaning up this address probe stuff, but I'm seeing 3-400 subscribe and 3-400 unsubscribe commands daily even when I"m not actively dinking with the address list. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 21:00:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA28592 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:32:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id UAA28402 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA05900 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 17:55:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.193] (shiva1-mclean-218.his.com [205.252.121.218]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA03875; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:54:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9702022033.aa08893@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 03:00:01 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:53:42 -0500 To: "Merrill Cook" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:33 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Merrill Cook wrote: >Just brainstorming here... but how about making them take an >interactive test, like a driver's certification test? Set it up >so they can't send note 1 on the internet unless they can answer >ten questions correctly about addressing, etiquette, Good Times, >pyramid schemes, chain letters, unsolicited advertising, and >unsubscribing from lists. Hmm. I'm not sure that this specific example would work, but there seems to be a useful idea here. I'll forward a copy of this note to myself at work, and pass it around there. However, taking off my AOL hat again, this doesn't solve the larger problem -- what about other places (like WebTV, AT&T WorldNet, etc...) that have similar problems, and what about educating the general Internet community at large? I mean, we've already got the cream of the cream of the crop online now (only ~1% of the entire world population, and even Mensa sets their bar at the 90th percentile), and everything from here on out is downhill. How do we educate these vast, unwashed, masses and yet still keep the thing useful and interesting enough for those 99th percentile of us that are on the 'net? -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 21:55:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA05856 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA05164 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id VAA02355; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:40:26 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32F4E77A.22D6@ecentral.com> References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:34:22 -0800 To: connect@ecentral.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Clueless Subscribers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:14 AM -0800 2/2/97, Cindy Stanley wrote: >Sad as it is, I got a really good laugh while reading this. It is >OH-SO-TRUE! But, I must also add that these problems are not just limited to >AOLers. Clueless subscribers are *everywhere*. > >Just in the past month for example I have had bounces from: I got a few myself: * One guy has so far replied eight times to my "do not reply" probe message, evidently because he thinks this is funny. No message, just replies with the original included. I have, of course, taken this as an indication he really wants to be unsubscribed to my lists, and done so. (I've had a few others of these, also, and assumed the same there...) * I've been having a running "thing" with one user who's been repeatedly subscribing to my lists, only to have all of the mail sent to him bounce back because of a quota restriction. This has been going on at least three weeks. He evidently has never figured out the lack of mail coming in is beacuse of this, because he keeps resubscribing. One wonders if he'll ever stop to wonder why none of his mail is working... And from the system side, on this probe I'm doing, best.com, for reasons only it knows, delivered the probe message to its users, and then chose about ten at random to ALSO return to me with a "user unknown" message, so I promptly dropped them.And now I've heard from at least four wondering why they got dropped, even though they did exactly what I asked them to do in the message (i.e. nothing...). If Best.com had dumped ALL of its subscribers, or even a large percentage, I would have caught this. Why they did this to ANY of them, well, I'm sure those users are going to ask... It makes one wonder what other mail they're bouncing.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 22:40:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA08393 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (www.ecentral.com [204.227.4.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA08377 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.227.4.46 (ppp26.ecentral.com [204.227.4.46]) by www.ecentral.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10956 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:33:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32F58843.1CC@ecentral.com> Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 23:40:03 -0700 From: Cindy Stanley Reply-To: connect@ecentral.com Organization: Unschooling List X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Education References: <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk E. Allen Smith wrote: > Whoops... I should have been clearer here. I was referring > to the _US_ educational system; it seems to me to encourage this > attitude, particularly in the public schools. (As I stated, I'm > not as familiar with non-US educational systems, but I suspect the > same is true in general.) *Another* great reason to homeschool your kids! (Sorry, I just couldn't resist.) :-) And now back to our regular programming..... Cindy, homeschooling parent, list owner and editor Unschooling List Mom Aurora, Colorado connect@ecentral.com ~' `, )" o-)O \ \'''"/ \_ ,,} ) woof! '',,,,, , || || We learn from history "--'"--' that we do not learn anything from history. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 2 22:44:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA08449 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom3.netcom.com (netcom3.netcom.com [192.100.81.103]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA08442 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 22:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom3.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA09792; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:37:50 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 23:37:50 -0700 (MST) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom3 To: List Managers List Subject: Re: mailbox size (was: fresh horror from AOL) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, Brad Knowles wrote: > Well, we already allow them 550 messages. Since we limit > Internet mail to a maximum of 2MB (assuming you're sending > attachments), this means we allow each user up to ~1.6GB mailbox > storage space (internally, attachments can be up to 15MB in size, so > this would be ~8.2GB, if you were talking about only internal mail). > > Show me another place on the planet that allows their users to > build up mailboxes this large. I'll best most shell accounts do. My mailbox, for instance, has been larger than 10 GB. (Due to some IDIOT who set a vacation-type program to reply to "all" -- including herself. The loop repeated pretty fast, and ran for about 10 hours before I discovered it.) (I'm hoping this won't lead to "mine is bigger than yours" one-upmanship; the point is that you need to look a bit wider than proprietary systems when you make sweeping statements on this list.) / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! + From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 00:25:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA13629 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA13609 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id DAA22076 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 03:22:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA00959; 03 Feb 97 03:21:40 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 02 Feb 97 22:14:22 -0500 Subject: Re: It's getting hot in Message-ID: References: <2.2.32.19970131184714.00b1bcb4@tgn.net> Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk AL> My knowledge of the technical aspects of managing a mailing list AL> is limited. I enjoy reading the technical reports and discussions AL> on this List and learning more in that area, but I would never want AL> all posts limited to those discussions. I want to read about the human AL> aspects of mailing lists. As far as the technical stuph goes, I pay a AL> service to handle those chores. In the final analysis, the only thing AL> required of any of us to run a mailing list, is the ability to think. AL>Alan S. Harrell Well said. I think it's also important to remember that it's dangerous to only look at what the "machine" is doing, and not at where the product is going. After all, that is what we're trying to do -- provide a service, for whatever reason, to real people -- and we can't do that effectively if we ignore the people we're serving, and what their circumstances are. ___ X SLMR 2.1a X Slow down, you crazy child, -- >> David B. Smith Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS "The cure for all the ills of Democracy >> is more Democracy!" -- NY Gov. Al Smith >> >> My views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> My employers don't necessarily speak for me, either, 'natch. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 00:28:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA13636 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:23:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id AAA13628 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id DAA22095 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 03:22:26 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA00960; 03 Feb 97 03:21:41 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 03 Feb 97 02:46:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Educating large mass Message-ID: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PH>So, what can we do to educate the members of our lists? What can we do to PH>reduce the problems caused by the users who can't/won't be educated about PH>the basics? Is this an issue of education or enforcement? I wonder if the problem isn't the nature of the maillist itself. For a neophyte, reasonably capable email software can seem quite daunting. I've been "tinkering" with computers for 20-something years. Only a few years ago, I got my first exposure to Internet email, through my Compuserve account. It wasn't until I got a non-metered ISP account that I dared to subscribe to maillists, simply because of the potential volume. At the time, I tried a couple of different mail packages. I'm currently using Pegasus, for example -- but for a fair stretch there, I'd keep forgetting if the command I remembered was for Eudora which I had used or Pegasus which I currently use. After a while, I got fairly comfortable with Pegasus. But add a maillist or two to the mix, and what happens? Different lists use different MLM software. They have different commands, which you have to email to different addresses. Get any number of lists, and you have a -really- significant level of confusion going. I got around this problem. How? I became a Sysop. Now I deal with -all- the several lists I subscribe to through my BBS. Each list is echoed to a separate conference on the BBS. The interface with each is consistent. If I choose to not read a particular list anymore, I can simply deselect it from my message downloads -- while the messages continue to come into the BBS, they -don't- come to me. Later, if I'm sure I'm no longer interested in the list, I can dig back through my archives, and unsubscribe the BBS from the list. Sure, not everyone has the skills to be a Sysop -- which is the problem at hand. But my story demonstrates that there -are- mechanisms for making maillists accessible to the masses, without the more confusing aspects thereof. What has to be done, in the final analysis, is to make the maillist, at the receiving end, -not- a maillist. In fact, in early days, the whole idea of ISPs providing Internet access directly, so I am told, wasn't intended. The thought was that BBS's would make the connections and handle the complicated stuff. (Forget where I heard that....) AOL could essentially do what I've done here. Create an AOL conference -- or whatever they call them there -- for each list that has a "significant" number of AOL subscribers. The interface becomes consistent for all the users, as well as being manageable by AOL staff. No subscribing or unsubscribing by users is necessary at all -- AOL subscribes, and provides access in that fashion. The mailbox limitations become meaningless -- individuals don't have to keep the message flow in their personal mailboxes anymore. No more bounces to the list -- AOL absorbs the incoming traffic seamlessly. (I assume.) A user that doesn't want to follow a particular maillist anymore doesn't need to remember what message to send where. They simply drop the conference, the same way the drop any other AOL conference. True, it takes some of the "fun" out of it for List Managers. It isn't a "pure" Internet-style answer. Almost seems like cheating, don't it? But it -does- address many of the current problems, using a proven technique. Heck, Sysops literally all over the -world- have proven it. Just my two cents worth. ___ X SLMR 2.1a X Where's the fire? What's the hurry about? -- >> David B. Smith Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS "The cure for all the ills of Democracy >> is more Democracy!" -- NY Gov. Al Smith >> >> My views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> My employers don't necessarily speak for me, either, 'natch. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 05:40:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA09465 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 05:26:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id FAA09447 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 05:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pprice@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id IAA21146; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:25:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:25:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pauline Price To: "E. Allen Smith" cc: chuqui@plaidworks.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) In-Reply-To: <01IEY6EK60WU9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 2 Feb 1997, E. Allen Smith wrote: > From: IN%"chuqui@plaidworks.com" "Chuq Von Rospach" 2-FEB-1997 17:30:10.54 > > > >There are no easy answers. We've implemented all of those.... But that > >doesn't mean we've done all we can... > > Good point. Noticeably, all the easy answers deal with things > directly under our control; the more difficult stuff is dealing with > the doings of others. One of the things I'm supprised at, is that no-one here seems to be imagining a REAL solution to list-member cluelessness. We all agree that education goes about as far as it can be expected to already. I was explaining the thread here to my SO last night. She would be a typical clueless user - without me to hold her hand - she hates to read long instructions, is intimidated by new things, etc. As I was explaining the problem, I started to wonder what would make a list manageable for her. What if - there were a standard listmanager protocol for commands - mail clients knew that protocol, and how to query list-servers about supported features - mail clients maintained lists of active subscriptions, and provided intelligent support for posting, suspending, un-subscribing, etc Then our clueless users would have push-button support for what they want to do. And we would have less headaches all around. I suppose the world looks much different when you happen to have a stake in the technology/internet world as well as the personal happiness of one of the 'worst offender' types. We know it's not impossible, we've seen what the web and http have become. I do alot just using the template feature of my mail client in the office now. What would it take to get from here to there? -Pauli > -Allen > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 06:59:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA15907 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from itw.com (rsk.itw.com [206.138.122.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA15856 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 06:49:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by itw.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA26710 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:49:08 -0500 (EST) From: Rich Kulawiec Message-Id: <199702031449.JAA26710@itw.com> Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:49:05 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 02, 1997 06:20:54 PM Reply-To: rsk@itw.com Organization: Ditka Diplomatic Studies Institute X-Last-River: West Branch, Brandywine River X-Last-CD: Carrie Newcomer, "My Father's Only Son" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >At 12:12 PM -0500 1/31/1997, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >>Brad Knowles writes: >>> Check the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ. That wouldn't get written >>>without their support. >> >>While I find the comp.mail.sendmail FAQ eminently useful, and am very >>glad that it exists, there's no doubt in my mind that it would exist >>even if AOL never had. It's too necessary not to. > > See my previous comments. I guarantee you that it would have >died on the vine. There simply was zero interest in keeping the >thing up to date, until I took the thing over. Were I to let it go >now, it probably would survive, but not if I'd done so back then. I'm sorry, then we just have a difference of opinion. I know that several FAQs that I maintain would be scooped up very quickly if I got run over by a bus; there are (apparently) just way too many people who are interested in the info for it to go away. I think the sendmail FAQ falls into the same category, you don't. Fair enough. > AOL pays for the hardware, including the power, space, cooling, >etc.... AOL pays the paychecks of its employees, and some of us tend >to be pretty activist towards certain types of things, and that's >part of why we were hired, and that is officially considered part (or >all) of our job while at AOL. It's part of my official job >description, if nothing else. Okay, part of this I'll now agree with, but part of it I don't. If maintaining the sendmail FAQ is part of your job description, then great, AOL is underwriting something that is very useful for the rest of the Internet. But as far as providing power/space/cooling or cycles/disk/memory, that's been the de facto mode of operation for all of us for years and years. We all know that mailing lists and moderated newsgroups and FAQs and all of that kind of thing are done by people who are (sometimes) utilizing facilities that are not 100% their own. Some places don't know about it, some tolerate it, and some encourage it. (I'd still like to know who paid ihnp4's phone bills.) >>For example, not implementing poorly-thought-out mail filtering >>or screwing up HTTP 1.1 support would be a good start [see attached ASCII >>document] and respecting work done by non-AOLers (meaning leaving >>copyrighted work intact including all attributions, so that it's easily >>distinguishable from AOL's own work) would be nice. > > The mail filtering I can address -- this issue is being forwarded >to our developers. The HTTP support I can't, especially since we're >integrating commercial software to provide the web browser function. >That would have to be directed at the people who implement the web >browser we are integrating. I understand this. But in both cases, the barn door is already open, and closing it now, while helpful, won't stop the horses. In the case of both mail filtering (which started this discussion) and HTTP standards compliance, AOL acted unilaterally -- which is certainly their priviledge as an independent company -- but with nasty results for the rest of us. What exacerbates this is AOL's public claim (which I know you are not responsible for) that everyone is out of step but Johnny. (E.g. their repeated and official statements that the web difficulties were not AOL's problem, but the problems of thousands of sites.) Look, if AOL wants to service millions of customers, that's fine. Make all the money in the world; I don't care. But take responsibility: they're *your* users, they pay *you*, *you* educate them. If you can't handle the problem of dealing with X million users, maybe you shouldn't have X million users. Choose. It's your web browser/mail filter/whatever, *you* make it work. Or else work with the Internet to develop universally applicable solutions, so that the problem changes to "*we* make it work". (Heck, underwrite the Hyperion project at UofI/NCSA, a followon to Mosaic. They're grad students, it'll be cheap. And it could give us back a decent GUI browser with full source code. If it flops, you're only out chump change. If it flies, you're heroes.) Please excuse the frustration that's obviously showing. I get the impression that you're a hardworking person trying to redirect AOL's efforts in more productive direction, for which I thank you. But you are not the official spokesperson for the company, and until those people stop bashing us (see the web-related attachment to my last message) some of us are not going to be terribly inclined to help you. I guess I find myself in the position where the right hand is asking for help, but the left hand is aimed at my face. I think AOL needs to decide which hand it wants to use. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 09:26:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00964 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA00940 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) with SMTP; 3 Feb 1997 17:21:40 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id MAA17342; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:22:13 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199702031722.MAA17342@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: brad@his.com (Brad Knowles) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:22:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: nmehl@leftbank.com, meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 01:28:06 am X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Arisia X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Brad Knowles: > >I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if this is the case, > >why are unverified accounts still able to send email and post to > >usenet? > We verify credit cards interactively. You cannot use a fake > credit card number to get an AOL account. I'm not sure what else you > might mean by "unverified accounts", though. Sorry, "unverified" was probably the wrong word to use in that context. I am under the impression that it is still possible during the "ten free hours" that come with the standard ubiquitous AOL trial diskette to send email and post to Usenet -- before handing over a credit card number of any sort. If this information is out of date, I apologize. -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 10:56:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA07781 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ultra1.inconnect.com (ultra1.inconnect.com [207.0.50.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA07743 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cutthroat.inconnect.com ([207.0.50.14]) by ultra1.inconnect.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA8514 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:34:22 -0700 Received: by cutthroat.inconnect.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC11C6.986D54B0@cutthroat.inconnect.com>; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:37:11 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC11C6.986D54B0@cutthroat.inconnect.com> From: "Bill Staples" To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: How can this happen? Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:37:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm trying to make a digest version of a list, and getting the following = results.=20 If anyone can help me understand why I am getting these results, I would = greatly appreciate it! Sending mail to both the list and the "digest" version of the list works = perfectly! I get file building up in the digest directory as shown = below. But when I go to "mkdigest" I get the error "No messages". And = clearly there are -- as shown below. It seems to be dying on the last = message, for if I comment out the "&abort" sub, It proceeds to make a = blank volume. (ie. doesn't include any message, but does make the = header and footer for that volume). Leaving the code as is, I get the = following results: take a look: [root@ns]> pwd /usr/majordomo/digests/bill-test-digest [root@ns]> ls -al total 16 drwxrwx--x 2 majordom daemon 512 Feb 3 11:08 . drwxrwxr-- 3 majordom daemon 512 Feb 3 09:40 .. -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 1006 Feb 3 09:41 001 -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 982 Feb 3 09:53 002 -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 982 Feb 3 10:51 003 -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 989 Feb 3 11:08 004 -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 990 Feb 3 11:08 005 -rw-rw---- 1 majordom majordom 991 Feb 3 11:08 006 [root@ns]> cd ../../ [root@ns]> ./digest -m -C -l bill-test-digest bill-test-digest-outgoing mj_digest: ABORT No messages. Stopped /usr/majordomo/digests/bill-test-digest/006 (BTW, I added = this debug output with abort -- wanted to see where it stoped) Any help would be greatly apprecited! I *do* have the following = variable set in majordomo.cf: $digest_work_dir =3D "/usr/majordomo/digests"; ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill Staples, Administrator / Webmaster bill@inconnect.com Internet Connect, Inc. 1-801-364-4059 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 11:26:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA12359 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA12316 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:14:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id OAA10599; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:10:04 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Date: 3 Feb 1997 14:10:03 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 85 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5d5d6b$ab4@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: >At 6:05 PM -0800 2/2/97, Gary Bickford wrote: >>2. [Local Access] The FCC is considering allowing local phone >>companies to charge ISPs as much as 1.5 to 2 cents per minute (90 cents to >>$1.20 per hour) for line access, which would no doubt be passed on to the >>user. [I note that Bill Gates seems to be in favor of this.] >Against it, but this is simply a money grab, not really a technological >issue. Someone sees smoeone else making money, and figures that it's >easier to go grab a piece of that instead of trying to make money >themselves directly. I was going to avoid this topic. Knowledge of telco costs is pretty rare, and mine was gleaned from a couple of unpleasant years working for Northern Telecom, a.k.a BNR, so it's a bit out of date. The situation is made much worse by the near-complete lack of relationship between price of service (determined by the local tarrifing agencies) and the cost of delivery. That said, I'm going to plow ahead with one and only one post. Phone line economics are *really* odd. For a nice overview, see if you can find `The Death of Distance' from a late-1995 issue of the Economist. Simplifying it, here's the data: Physical wiring (lines coming to houses) are the single largest cost item in telephone, usually in excess of $1000/line. Mind you, that's the *full* line cost, from your doorstep into the CO (central office). Since most of this cost is front-loaded (stringing or burying cable), local telephone companies guesstimate what a neighborhood will need, add a fudge factor, and pull that many lines. It's basicly a fixed cost item -- once they've paid the up-front costs, they're done. When you actually use the phone, you consume two resources. First is the signalling cost, or the effort involved setting up the call. This uses up CPU in the switch, and one trunk line. Once the call is set up, you continue to occupy one trunk line and a very small bit of CPU. Switches are expensive hardware and fragile software. Hardware upgrades are done in huge expensive chunks. Again, to minimise the problem the companies install switch with capacities such that they don't have to touch them for years. These two facts make for the funny economics. I wanted a fourth line at the house. But all the lines into my rural neighborhood were in use. New cable required. But they brought 100 pairs, allowing for yet further expansion. Cost to the local phone company? Thousands and thousands. Cost to me? $47.00, as per the Michigan public utilities commission. We wanted ISDN in Dexter. Cost to me? A couple of hundred bucks. Cost to the phone company? Complete new software load for the Dexter switch. Which, by the way, has about 10000 line capacity. Pretty soon we're going to run out of 426-XXXX numbers. Cost to the person who gets the next line? $47.00. Cost to the phone company? Tens, maybe hundreds of thousands. This system worked fine for years, because usage patterns were consistant. You could look at a given neighborhood/town/city, and make a very good guess as to o how many lines they'd need in five years o how many lines would be in use simultaneously o how many minutes those calls would last Dial-up IP has utterly destroyed all the prediction models for the last two. You can pillory the phone companies for not predicting the Internet, but nobody's going to take you seriously. The local telcos need to do huge, expensive infrastructure upgrades. They need to do them now. And they don't have long distance subsidising them any more, and they face the threat of having their infrastructure divvied out to competition. So they want to have a billing mechanism established which accurately reflects resource usage. And (unlike per-packet or per-email charges) there are excellent models for doing so. A money grab? Sure, to some degree. But the costs are out there, and the present revenue mechanisms don't actually reflect them. So they go for what they can. *shrug* Someday we'll get to real usage-based fees for telephone -- a per-call charge, and a per-minute charge. But don't hold your breath. -- ``Truman Capote has made lying an art. A minor art.'' -- Gore Vidal, on Truman Capote From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 13:27:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA23878 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA23816 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24459 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:50:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032050.PAA24459@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:27:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Feb 97 ,Brad Knowles insightfully wrote: > > The problem is that the Customer Service folks get the same kind > of cluelessness and vitriol for virtually *everything*, as > list-managers get when AOL users demand that they take time out of > their busy schedule to solve their problems, because that's what they > were put on this planet for. In fact, I suspect we see more of it, > and in general, worse cases of it, than list-managers typically do. Ahhh, but the difference is that your Customer Service folks are getting PAID for problems that AOL creates. List Managers are not getting paid. Is there some reason that you are *not* getting this point? > So, what? Turn off the entire Service and send everyone home? > Well, similar problems (perhaps not quite as bad, but certainly bad > enough) exist on the Internet already, so why not just turn off the > entire Internet and send everyone home -- that's just as valid a > solution. Not a bad solution. Brad, you keep wanting to misdirect the problem elsewhere. This is indicative of AOL's mindset. Instead, why not try to acknowledge the problem and then find a solution to it? Become part of the solution rather than deny their is a problem. Leonard From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 13:31:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA24308 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA24154 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24764 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:52:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032052.PAA24764@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:27:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Pauline, I believe you have an excellent suggestion. However, I'm not very opimistic about it working. I place very clear instructions at the bottom of each list my firm sponsors or maintains. My experience, is that AOL users refuse to follow the instructions. They continue to insist to send messages, "GET ME OFF THIS DAMN LIST!" Then when others attempt to help them and point out the instructions at the bottom, they are sent vulgar messages by the AOL subscriber. Then the AOL subscriber will invariably send 20 or so messages, in a row, that they want to get off. I have tried sending them detailed instructions on how to unsubscribe, that doesn't work. I have set up a webpage where they can go to unsubscribe by simply inputing their email address and clicking on the button. But, they don't seem to be able to do even that. I've wasted a lot of time and resources on AOL subscribers which is why I was forced to finally ask AOL to take us off their directory. I am the first to admit that not all of them are like this. However, a majority of them who subscribe or attempt to subscribe to our lists, are. They account for 3% of subscription base, contribute less than 1% and are responsible for 90% of the problems. Now, my figures may differ from yours. I've had a few list owners tell me they never have any problems with AOL people. But, then again, their lists are for programmers, software developers, etc... These people, usually have more savvy than the "normal" AOL subscriber. I believe that many of ua can agree that there are problems. Not only with AOL but perhaps with others coming down the pike. What needs to be discussed are solutions. Solutions we can use now, rather than solutions that AOL and others promise sometime in the future. I think your comments were a very positive step in that direction. Leonard On 3 Feb 97 ,Pauline Price insightfully wrote: > What if > - there were a standard listmanager protocol for commands > - mail clients knew that protocol, and how to query list-servers > about supported features > - mail clients maintained lists of active subscriptions, and > provided intelligent support for posting, suspending, > un-subscribing, etc > > Then our clueless users would have push-button support for what they > want to do. And we would have less headaches all around. I suppose > the world looks much different when you happen to have a stake in > the technology/internet world as well as the personal happiness of one > of the 'worst offender' types. > > We know it's not impossible, we've seen what the web and http have > become. I do alot just using the template feature of my mail > client in the office now. > > What would it take to get from here to there? > > -Pauli > > -Allen > > > > > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 13:44:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA27527 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA27499 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA28368 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:17:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032117.QAA28368@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:19:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Two possible ways to verify users is by their Credit Card Numbers and their Phone Numbers. People, may have several credit cards, but few will go out and change their phone number every two or three weeks, just to have access to AOL. It seems to me that AOL could assign one email address to a user and track them by their phone number. That way, they can't bomb a list. Abandon the email address and come back and do it again under another email address from AOL. I have had similar problems with AOL responding to requests for help with their subscribers. Total silence. And, yes I was very polite back then. Now, I just terminate the people. Leonard On 2 Feb 97 ,Tim Bowden insightfully wrote: > Brad Knowles writes: > > > We verify credit cards interactively. You cannot use a fake > > credit card number to get an AOL account. I'm not sure what else you > > might mean by "unverified accounts", though. > > Possibly: a verified user simply switches his account name. He is > now BombasterX@aol.com. He sends a stream of garbage, perhaps even > a load of system demands to the last list he was justifiably kicked > off. He drops his alias before the material comes back, which of > course bounces, which of course adds a heavy load to the system > he's bombing, which was his intent. > > Here's my experience: if I complain about an isolated user to AOL, > there is a chance I will see a rather prompt, courtesous, and helpful > reply. If I bring to them a possible liability, such as the above > (which I have), I will hear total silence. They will not so much > as acknowledge my mail. > > Now, this may've been 1995, and it may have been rare, but there > was some dud on AOL sent a resource bomb as I've described to > bring down my small system, and AOL did not respond to my repeated > demands they take action and inform. I suspect from that the legal > department kicks in whenever there is potential for liability, and > I wonder if other listowners have seen that sort of non-response. > > > > --- > mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) > Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! > mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org > http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html > > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 13:53:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA24221 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:54:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA24087 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24657 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:52:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032052.PAA24657@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:27:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Feb 97 ,Brad Knowles insightfully wrote: > However, taking off my AOL hat again, this doesn't solve the > larger problem -- what about other places (like WebTV, AT&T WorldNet, > etc...) that have similar problems, and what about educating the > general Internet community at large? It is my undestanding from AOL marketing and from you that AOL is "supposed" to be the "leader". Leadership means taking iniative. Not waiting around for others to do something. Don't worry about other people. At the moment, for list owners, like myself, AOL is the problem *not* the others. If AOL was truly the leader it would like the world to believe it is, it would take the iniative and start doing something. To my knowledge, none of these other groups allows their subscribers to click on a button and refuse to receive email from them. To my knowledge, these other organizations are not specifically targeting the "clueless" as AOL is doing. So, for the time being, they may not be the problem you anticipate them to be. The question is, is AOL truly the leader they claim to be? Then why don't they take the iniative in training their online people? Or, finding solutions to training them. What is a viable solution? For those 50 free hours that AOL is offering everyone -- why doesn't AOL keep their subscribers in AOL's domain instead of releasing these neophytes on to the Internet. This way they are AOL's problem for 50 hours and during that time period, AOL can train their potential prospects on how to use AOL's services and the Internet. This solution would help relieve the burden of listowners from having to waste resources with AOL's subscribers. Specifically, the "50" hour wonders. If AOL truly offers such a great service that subscribers will want -- then allow these 50/hr wonders to explore AOL instead of the Internet. Another solution is not to allow AOL subscribers (50/hr Wonders) to subscribe to any Internet lists. Email must stay within AOL's domain. This way they don't join a bunch of lists and then abandon their email address. AOL has been able to do this in the past. They should be able to do so, now. Another solution: If AOL can provide their subscribers with a turn off button so they don't have to receive mail from a server -- they should ensure that the person also can not send email to that server. This would eliminate subscribers from subscribing to the list or sending spams to the list. Basically, I see this new AOL function as protection for spammers. They can send a spam out to the internet and then set up a block so they don't receive any flames back. Leonard BTW: Just for point of contention. I found it ironic that I was recently spammed by TLCB@AOL.COM who wanted to invite me and my mailbots to participate in AOL's campus. I guess that AOL does condone spamming after all. 8) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 13:57:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA24216 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA24052 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24624 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:51:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032051.PAA24624@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:27:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brad, I would love to contribute something that would help AOL become richer. But at the moment I'm spending all my free time cleaning up after AOL. There is a good concensus of the problem. However, it was you who didn't want to discuss it. Like a good politician, you keep wanting to misdirect the discussion. First by labeling it "AOL bashing". And, then by saying, "Well others will be having problems, too." The fact is, the "others" may be a problem in some distant future. However, AOL is the problem now. Sorry, Brad, as you can see this is a topic that many others, besides myself have concerns about. It's ironic that the discussion was dead for a week and it was you who opened up the can of worms. Perhaps if you took off your "AOL hat" and listened to the problems which are being expressed instead of trying to have a "ready answer" to each one or dismiss them -- you might learn something. In fact, many of the problems you are attempting to defend are not in your domain of influence. These are decisions which are being made by those in charge and with AOL marketing. Believe it or not, if AOL suddenly ceased to exist within the next ten minutes, the Internet would barely blink. All the projects that AOL is involved in, if they were of real importance to the Net, would be picked up by others, and we would all carry on. None of my lists have suffered from AOL taking us off of their directory. In fact, we've grown because we have less interruptions from the "clueless" and we get into some real discussion. You assume AOL is much more important than it really is. The internet grew without AOL's assistance. It will continue to grow, whether AOL is a part of it or not. As good as you are at programming and I take nothing away from that. I have read your posts and learned, a lot. I am equally good at marketing. I understand who AOL's market is. What they are doing and why. I understand the decisions they are making and why. I also understand the fallacy to their marketing and where it will backfire. It's easy to say that everyone is "sue happy". But, there are some real problems with AOL. Problems that AOL doesn't want to answer. The subscribers are complaining to more than just AOL. They are now contacting congressmen, state attorney generals and civil suits. Not just to jump on the bandwagon but because there are some *real* problems. You see Brad, you keep asking people like myself to offer solutions to your problems. That's not my job. I'm not getting paid to solve AOL's problems. You on the other hand, are. If you would like to hire me at my $500/hr. rate, I'd be happy to provide some phone consultation. That's how much a consultant like myself gets paid. My job is not to solve your problems. My job is to point out the problems for you to solve. When one of my clients hires me, they don't pay me to ask them what the solution to their problem is. They pay me to solve the problem they give me. I wouldn't stay in business very long if I accepted my fee and then asked the client to tell me the solution to their problem. If they had the solution then they wouldn't need me, would they? Brad, take off your "AOL hat" and step away from AOL for a moment. Take a look at what people are telling you, on this list. Write down the problems that people are having. List them. Take a real hard unbiased look at AOL and see if these problems are valid. You might be surprised at how many are valid points. You won't be able to solve any problems until you first acknowledge that there are problems. The problems don't go away, by continuing to deny there are problems. They go away, when you acknowledge them and then take steps to solve them. There have been a few people who have offered the solutions that you requested. However, you had a quick and ready answer as to why they wouldn't work. Or, you ended up telling them "Well, this will be a problem with others, like...." So, you see the problem and frustration many of us are having with AOL? First, like you, AOL refuse to acknowledge the problems. Second, since there are no problems they refuse to listen to solutions. Brad, either AOL is the "leader" it claims to be or it is not. A "leader" takes iniative and responsibility. So far, I haven't seen that from AOL. There philosophy is, "We're not the only ones." "We're waiting for someone else to give us the solution." "Well everyone else is doing it." Leonard > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 14:13:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA02211 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA01873 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:50:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 97 16:50:42 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9702031650.aa14953@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk CEO@citadel.net: >On 2 Feb 97 ,Brad Knowles insightfully wrote: >> The problem is that the Customer Service folks get the same kind >> of cluelessness and vitriol for virtually *everything*, as >> list-managers get when AOL users demand that they take time out of >> their busy schedule to solve their problems, because that's what they >> were put on this planet for. In fact, I suspect we see more of it, >> and in general, worse cases of it, than list-managers typically do. > >Ahhh, but the difference is that your Customer Service folks are >getting PAID for problems that AOL creates. The same can be said for any ISP. What's your point? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 14:15:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA02360 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA02319 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA18295; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:48:08 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199702032148.NAA18295@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users To: CEO@Citadel.Net Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:48:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199702032050.PAA24459@www6.clever.net> from "Dr. Manion" at Feb 3, 97 01:27:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Leonard wrote: > On 2 Feb 97 ,Brad Knowles insightfully wrote: > > The problem is that the Customer Service folks get the same kind > > of cluelessness and vitriol for virtually *everything*, as > > list-managers get when AOL users demand that they take time out of > > their busy schedule to solve their problems, because that's what they > > were put on this planet for. In fact, I suspect we see more of it, > > and in general, worse cases of it, than list-managers typically do. > Ahhh, but the difference is that your Customer Service folks are > getting PAID for problems that AOL creates. List Managers are not > getting paid. Is there some reason that you are *not* getting this > point? I'm not sure if I get your point, and I'm not Brad. AOL's customer service people are trying to do their jobs. List Managers typically volunteer to do this, and thus if they don't like the problems, they can just quit. Both are dealing with clueless people, because both are dealing with new users to the Internet. How is AOL bad, because most List Managers aren't getting paid? > > So, what? Turn off the entire Service and send everyone home? > > Well, similar problems (perhaps not quite as bad, but certainly bad > > enough) exist on the Internet already, so why not just turn off the > > entire Internet and send everyone home -- that's just as valid a > > solution. > Not a bad solution. Turning off the Internet is a good solution? Or turning off AOL? > Brad, you keep wanting to misdirect the problem elsewhere. This is > indicative of AOL's mindset. Instead, why not try to acknowledge the > problem and then find a solution to it? Become part of the solution > rather than deny their is a problem. 1. Brad's not "misdirecting" the problem elsewhere, he's explaining why the problem exists. Your idea seems to be that "AOL is bad bad bad" explains everything, and that's just not the case. 2. I think Brad, and others, _are_ working on solving the problem. 3. How are _you_ part of the solution? I know how Brad's part of the solution, but it seems that you're just here to attack AOL and attack Brad. I don't see that's any more helpful than what you accuse him of. > Leonard --Kynn PS: I just today dealt with a stupid user from AOL. But I don't see that user's stupidity as a reflection on AOL, but rather a reflection on stupid people in general. If AOL weren't the biggest net company around, someone else would be, and _they_ would have the biggest concentration of stupid people. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 14:23:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA24095 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:53:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id MAA23888 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs1-15.llion.org [198.209.45.115]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA24476 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:50:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702032050.PAA24476@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:01:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: fresh horror from AOL Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Feb 97 ,Chuq Von Rospach insightfully wrote: > Dr. Manion: I'm curious. Since you're so down on AOL and how it > doesn't contribute to teh net (or what it does contirubte you choose > to not value, a very different thing...) Actually, I'm not down on AOL. I have nothing personal against AOL. In fact, my original posting met with very little fan fair. The subject died. Then a week later, Brad opened up the discussion. First, he sent a notice to myself and the lists that I was wrong and that I should consult with AOL's press releases and their willingness to settle out of court. In fact, I wasn't wrong. At the time of my posting my comments AOL had not taken the steps that Brad claimed. This came *after* my posting. He was responding to something that was a week late. I responded to his mistake and pointed this out. Of course, he's never admited to making this mistake or any other. 8) > What have YOU and your group contributed to the net such that you > can lob stones at AOL's glass house and feel virtuous about it? You know that's funny, since Brad sent me basically the same question. However, my answer is this. I have never ever suggested that everyone should be grateful for anything either I did or my group did for the Internet. Nor, have I ever made any claims that anyone should be grateful for what I do. Nor, that I have made vast contributions. This is something that Brad and AOL have made claims to. It seems they want to claim all the glory for things they do right. But, don't want to accept responsibility for things they do wrong. And, no I don't feel "virtuous" or "smug" about anything. That's strictly AOL's domain. 8) Brad, in his original response to me, stated that there was no problems with AOL. That my statements were just AOL bashing. That no one wanted to discuss these problems, but me. However, as you can see from the response to the list, obviously there are others out there who are experiencing the same problems with AOL as I have. I never said that AOL is the only culprit. What I said, was that AOL was the only one I was having problems with. I never said that AOL didn't contribute to the Internet. What I said, was that I have never seen any benefit from AOL. For someone in my profession, there is very little that AOL can offer. You see, if I was having the same problem with Juno or AT&T or any of the others, I would have said so. It just so happens that AOL is the one I'm having problems with. >Your name > and organization don't ring a bell to me. Why have you made the > internet such a better place that you can dump on AOL from a > position of righteousness? You are just a big a mystery to me as I am to you. Just because we don't circulate in the same circles, doesn't mean that we don't have some standing among our respective peers or validity in our own areas of expertise. What you see as "rightiousness" I see as pointing out problems. It is my belief that you can't begin to solve problems until you first become aware of them and then acknowledge them. I am pointing out problems that I am having and other list owners, I know of, are having. I am not the one claiming to be the "leader". Or, claiming that people should be grateful for my presence. Or, bragging to the world how great I am and self-important I am. That's AOL's domain. I personally could care less about AOL. What I do care about is the wasted resources of myself, my staff and my server directly caused by AOL's policies. Which are: 1. Allowing their 50/hr. wonders loose on the Internet. 2. Expecting list owners to educate their subscribers for them 3. Allowing their subscribers to block mail they requested 4. Allowing their subscribers to choose aliases which they can abandon at any time. to name a few.... > Or is this a case of "don't do what I do, do what I say?" Because I > can name a lot of things AOL's put time and energy into -- I'd like > to know what *you've* done along those lines as well, so I can be > appropriately impressed about your knowledge and contributions to > us. Chuq, I believe that you have me mistaken for AOL. I could care less if you are impressed with me or not. I'm not here to impress you or anyone else. Frankly, I don't need to impress. My work speaks for itself. On my lists, I *educate* people. That's what I do. I allow them to learn. I take full *responsibility* for what happens on my lists. I protect my subscribers from 90% of the spams. I take the time to *listen* to my subscribers, understand their problem, *ackowledge* the problem and then help them solve the problem. I take the *iniative* in improving the services I offer to my clients and my subscribers. I don't wait for someone else to do it. I don't say, "Well none of the other list owners are doing it, so why should I?". I don't ask my clients to solve their own problems. You may be under the mistaken impression that because I am a list owner, that I am a programmer or software developer. I'm not. I am a consultant. A problem-solver. That's what people pay me to do. Solve their problems. My clients don't pay me to ask them what the solution is. They pay me because they have a problem they want solved. I don't have to brag about my accomplishments. Or, tell people how grateful they have to be because I can solve their problems. I don't make claims that I'm the biggest. You see, Brad wants everyone to come up with the solution to his/AOL problems. But, that's what he gets paid for. To solve the problems. It's not my job to solve the problem for him so he can collect a pay check. I don't know what you do. Let me assume for a moment that you are a programmer. A client of mine comes to me and wants a CGI program for his website. I don't know how to write CGI. But, I accept my usual fee of $500/hr. consulting fee to write the script for him. How would you feel if I came to you and said, "Chuq, my client needs a CGI program to do this and he's paying me $500/hr. to provide it to him. Would you mind doing it for free?" What would your response be? That's the response I am giving Brad. The one you feel is "rightious". You see, it's not my job to find his solutions. Only to point out the problems for him to fix. That's what AOL is paying him for. Why should I give him the solution to his problem so he can be a hero at AOL? So, that AOL can be a hero to the rest of the Internet and make another claim of something the Internet can be grateful that "AOL" solved? I believe that I am being part of the solution by pointing out the problem. One of the first steps to finding a solution is to become aware of the problem. That's what I've done. Thanks for your comments. Leonard From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 14:41:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA08463 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA08405 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07817 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:35:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA30413 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:35:08 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA07370 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:35:05 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702032235.QAA07370@celery.tssi.com> Subject: The Manion and Knowles Love Fest To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:35:05 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm on two lists dealing with list management issues, and I find it ironic that in the past week both have devolved into flame fests and spam wars. Can't Brad and Leonard agree to disagree and let us get back to the main topics? I think the discussion has reached the point where it is producing much more heat than light. If this was happening on a list I ran, I'd probably put both of them in read-only mode for a few days as a cooling off period. (But I'm probably much less tolerant than many list managers and have been called a Nazi by a few unhappy subscribers. To counterbalance that, I have a big file of 'thank you' notes from other subscribers who prefer a more civilized list.) -- Mike Nolan nolan@tssi.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 14:58:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA05043 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA04988 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from crl5.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA10543 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:56:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:56:51 -0800 (PST) From: Subir Grewal To: Steve Simmons Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? In-Reply-To: <5d5d6b$ab4@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3 Feb 1997, Steve Simmons wrote: :Chuq Von Rospach writes: :Phone line economics are *really* odd. For a nice overview, see if you :can find `The Death of Distance' from a late-1995 issue of the Economist. Last I checked, the survey was available at: http://www.economist.com/surveys/distance/index.html :Someday we'll get to real usage-based fees for telephone -- a per-call :charge, and a per-minute charge. But don't hold your breath. This is the case in various countires, where local calls are metered. Tying up switches/lines is tying up a resource, and as such that would generally mean some method of pricing that ensures the resource gets allocated to those who value it most (speaking as an economist here). But telecom regulation the world over is sufficiently convoluted and tricky to make this a less than trivial concern. But competitive forces are considerably stronger than we generally feel they might be, one has to watch carefully the various substitutes available as this debate escalates. Wireless products might pose one option, as would a cable-like system with local access points. Laying wire is going to be expensive anyway, but if you can serve 500 household in one high-rise, it may become cost effective real-soon-now. hostmaster@trill-home.com + Lynx 2.6 + PGP + http://www.crl.com/~subir/ There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. -- Disraeli From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 15:10:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA10721 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [206.246.190.103]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA10583 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:55:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8718 invoked by uid 15018); 3 Feb 1997 22:53:45 -0000 MBOX-Line: From aen Mon Feb 3 17:53 EST 1997 >Received: (from alt@localhost) by aen.aen.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA15199; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:23 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:41:23 -0500 (EST) From: Al Thompson To: Pauline Price cc: "E. Allen Smith" , chuqui@plaidworks.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 3 Feb 1997, Pauline Price wrote: > What if > - there were a standard listmanager protocol for commands > - mail clients knew that protocol, and how to query list-servers > about supported features > - mail clients maintained lists of active subscriptions, and > provided intelligent support for posting, suspending, > un-subscribing, etc > > Then our clueless users would have push-button support for what they > want to do. And we would have less headaches all around. I suppose > the world looks much different when you happen to have a stake in > the technology/internet world as well as the personal happiness of one > of the 'worst offender' types. > > What would it take to get from here to there? Bill Gates? From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 15:31:05 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA10330 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:53:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA10246 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-961106) id OAA05480; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:50:06 -0800 Received: from uumail3.netcom.com(163.179.3.53) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma005476; Mon Feb 3 14:49:51 1997 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id OAA05713; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:37:02 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA11233; Mon, 3 Feb 97 14:36:30 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970203223752.006c4c14@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:37:52 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (Fantasy) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >What if > - there were a standard listmanager protocol for commands > - mail clients knew that protocol, and how to query list-servers > about supported features > - mail clients maintained lists of active subscriptions, and > provided intelligent support for posting, suspending, > un-subscribing, etc > >Then our clueless users would have push-button support for what they >want to do. Until these suggestions get implemented, perhaps the following might suffice: "Thank you for subscribing to our list. To make your subscription active, please read the instructions for how to behave on the list and how to unsubscribe, then write a short essay in your own words on the procedures and e-mail it to us. If the essay indicates that you actually understood the instructions, you will then be subscribed. If, for any reason, it turns out later that you need the list manager's assistance to unsubscribe, you agree to pay $5 for the service. Please provide your First Virtual PIN for this purpose." Well, it IS a fantasy. Regards, -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 15:35:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA13397 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA13332 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:14:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA03288 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id AAA08805 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id AAA13074; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:13:42 -0500 Message-ID: <19970203001341.BU34550@smoe.org> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 00:13:41 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) References: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> <9702022106.aa23532@pcusa01.ecunet.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9702022106.aa23532@pcusa01.ecunet.org>; from "Merrill Cook" on Feb 2, 1997 21:06:38 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Merrill Cook writes: > On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message > to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list > owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To > unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply > to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the > message we give. I very rarely unsub someone who sends a request to the list address. I have a shell script that mails them some help text along with the majoromo help file. It starts out like: You submitted a subscribe or unsubscribe to the regular (posting) address of a mailing list. Please note that you should send your request to -request@smoe.org or -digest-reqest@smoe.org (i.e. jewel-request@smoe.org, jewel-digest-request@smoe.org, basia-request@smoe.org or basia-digest-request@smoe.org). I have attached the help file for majordomo. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 15:41:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA13875 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:20:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA13856 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA02107 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (gerald@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca [129.128.65.240]) by quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAB18254 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:35:47 -0700 Received: (from gerald@localhost) by stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA01461 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:35:40 -0700 From: Gerald Oskoboiny Message-Id: <199702031735.KAA01461@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca> Subject: Re: Educating large mass To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:35:40 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: from "David B. Smith" at Feb 3, 97 02:46:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David B. Smith writes: > Now I deal with -all- the several lists I subscribe to through my BBS. > Each list is echoed to a separate conference on the BBS. The interface > with each is consistent. If I choose to not read a particular list > anymore, I can simply deselect it from my message downloads -- while the > messages continue to come into the BBS, they -don't- come to me. : > AOL could essentially do what I've done here. [...] Hopefully, if AOL were to do something like this, they'd figure out a way to do it in such a manner that Subject lines don't get mangled beyond all recognition. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny Phone: +1 403 492 7698 Systems Analyst, Information Systems Fax: +1 403 492 7172 Office of the Registrar and Student Awards University of Alberta From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 16:05:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA15097 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) id PAA13400 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA05682 for ; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-961106) id VAA02085; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:38:48 -0800 Received: from plaidworks.com(207.167.80.66) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002078; Sun Feb 2 21:38:22 1997 Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id VAA02359; Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:40:32 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9702022106.aa23532@pcusa01.ecunet.org> References: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> from "E. Allen Smith" at Feb 2, 97 02:33:00 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 21:38:58 -0800 To: "Merrill Cook" , EALLENSMITH@ocelot.Rutgers.EDU (E. Allen Smith) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Cc: brad@his.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:06 PM -0800 2/2/97, Merrill Cook wrote: >On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message >to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list >owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To >unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply >to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the >message we give. This is a religious issue among list admins. I'm of the belief that admins should design systems that don't screw over OTHER lists -- the idea being that you don't build a Fiat that makes it impossible for a person to drive a Lexus because of the differences. To me, that means trapping misplaced messages and sending information, instead of "helping" the user by redirecting and fixing the problem silently. By doing it "for" the user when they do something "wrong", it makes it easier on both the user and admin, but makes it difficult if the user is trained to believe this is the right way of doing things (after all, it worked), and goes and tries the same thing on other lists without that intelligent front-end. I don't mind doing as much gruntwork for the user as I can -- as long as it doesn't create negative implications for other lists which aren't as well instrumented. In those cases (mostly, in my eyes, cases of intercepting admin commands in the posting stream), I'll trap and inform instead of trap and redirect. Now, there are other admins who disagree strongly with this philosophy, and they have good arguments on their side as well. I just don't agree with them. Hence this being a religious issue, much like emacs and vi.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 16:10:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA17915 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:43:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.rv.tis.com (relay.rv.tis.com [204.254.155.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA17695 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by relay.rv.tis.com; id SAA23397; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dira.rv.tis.com(10.0.1.43) by relay.rv.tis.com via smap (3.2) id xma023395; Mon, 3 Feb 97 18:47:33 -0500 Received: (from mark@localhost) by dira.rv.tis.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) id SAA17916 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:33:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:33:57 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Sienkiewicz Message-Id: <199702032333.SAA17916@dira.rv.tis.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What if > - there were a standard listmanager protocol for commands > - mail clients knew that protocol, and how to query list-servers > about supported features > - mail clients maintained lists of active subscriptions, and > provided intelligent support for posting, suspending, > un-subscribing, etc This would go a long way toward helping with the problem. I suggest that people who are interested in this idea should form a draft proposal and distribute it as an RFC. It would want to go beyond the usual protocol specification and talk a bit about what a user actually sees -- that way someone who drops AOL and starts using Eudora through a local ISP can still understand how to do it. This will take years to implement. Even if I snap my fingers and new software appears overnight, it will be a long time before everybody upgrades. [e.g. I still prefer the same mailer I used 16 years ago, and I don't plan to upgrade to a user-hostile GUI now. :) ] In the mean time, there may be some band-aid solutions that will help us out. I wonder if there is some way to help the clueless self-select themselves off the list. For example, suppose a subscribe request didn't actually put you on the list-- it could send you instructions to follow. If you can't follow the instructions, you can't get on the list. Or if you can't get a replyable address in your message header, you can't get on the list... Or perhaps the default action for mail sent to the list address is to unsubscribe the sender. Require the first line of the message to be the word "post". Or perhaps user-by-user moderation. Only users who are known to be clueful get un-moderated. I'm sure none of these would be perfect solutions, but perhaps some ideas along these lines could help. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 16:11:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA20673 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from www6.clever.net (www6.clever.net [208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id QAA20584 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from llion (llion-cs2-04.llion.org [198.209.45.120]) by www6.clever.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23613 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:03:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702040003.TAA23613@www6.clever.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dr. Manion" Organization: Execu/Quest Marketing Consultants To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:05:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Desist... Reply-to: CEO@Citadel.Net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll be glad to desist Mark. I find that again, I am wasting my resources and time with AOL issues. My clients and subscribers deserve my attention. Thank you... Leonard From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 16:26:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA22678 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA22511 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id QAA14085; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:17:11 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <5d5d6b$ab4@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:07:23 -0800 To: Subir Grewal , Steve Simmons From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:56 PM -0800 2/3/97, Subir Grewal wrote: >On 3 Feb 1997, Steve Simmons wrote: > >:Chuq Von Rospach writes: >:Phone line economics are *really* odd. For a nice overview, see if you >:can find `The Death of Distance' from a late-1995 issue of the Economist. Just for clarity. I did *not* say this. The attributions got munged somewhere. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 17:16:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA24033 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA23976 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA19699; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:24:19 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199702040024.QAA19699@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Desist... To: CEO@Citadel.Net Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:24:13 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199702040003.TAA23613@www6.clever.net> from "Dr. Manion" at Feb 3, 97 06:05:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dr. Manion wrote: > I'll be glad to desist Mark. > I find that again, I am wasting my resources and time with AOL > issues. My clients and subscribers deserve my attention. > Thank you... Please feel free to pass on my gratitude to your clients. :) --Kynn From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 18:25:53 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA13408 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA13347 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.8.5/8.8.5/lokkur-1.1-scs) id VAA13743; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:10:03 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Is Bob Metcalfe right or wrong? Date: 3 Feb 1997 21:10:02 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 20 Distribution: local Message-ID: <5d65pq$ddc@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: >At 1:56 PM -0800 2/3/97, Subir Grewal wrote: >>On 3 Feb 1997, Steve Simmons wrote: >>:Chuq Von Rospach writes: >>:Phone line economics are *really* odd. For a nice overview, see if you >>:can find `The Death of Distance' from a late-1995 issue of the Economist. >Just for clarity. I did *not* say this. The attributions got munged somewhere. I guess that Subir deleted one too few lines in editing his followup. He was also correct -- the Economists excellent article on telephony economics is still available at It's a must read to anyone who wants to think seriously about long-term bandwidth costs, be they local or global. Thanks for finding the ref. -- ``Truman Capote has made lying an art. A minor art.'' -- Gore Vidal, on Truman Capote From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 19:40:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA22133 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA22105 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.16.65]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 03 Feb 1997 22:29:51 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:29:51 -0500 Subject: whowhere.com Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have found an address in a couple of my lists with the address of xxxlist@whowhere.com Does anyone know if whowhere.com is archiving lists? Or is whowhere.com another email provider like juno? Gess :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Gess Shankar pax vobiscum gess@earthchannel.com http://www.earthchannel.com Earth Channel Communications, LLC. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 3 21:25:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04019 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA03955 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 21:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24500 invoked by uid 666); 4 Feb 1997 05:16:23 -0000 Date: 4 Feb 1997 05:16:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19970204051623.24499.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I really don't want to kick people off my lists just because of a transient > net problem, Here's how ezmlm handles bounces. If messages to you start bouncing, ezmlm waits ten days; then it sends you a list of message numbers you missed and a copy of the first bounce. If that warning bounces, ezmlm waits ten days; then it sends you a probe with a copy of the bounce. If the probe bounces, ezmlm silently kicks you off the list. Results in sample situations: (1) Your account is removed. Messages bounce. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a warning, which bounces. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a probe, which bounces. ezmlm removes you from the list. (2) You briefly run over quota. Your MTA foolishly bounces a few messages. Ten days later, ezmlm sends its warning, including the list of missed message numbers. You retrieve the missing messages from the archive. (3) You forward copies of incoming mail to a summer account. At the end of the summer, the account is removed. Messages bounce, though you don't realize it. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a warning, which bounces, but you've been alerted to the problem. You fix the problem. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a probe, which doesn't bounce. Warnings and probes are sent from cryptographically secure addresses, so an attacker can't force you off the list unless he can watch your mail. All of this depends on qmail's VERPs, which reliably identify the subscription address and message number for every bounce message. To join the ezmlm mailing list, send an empty message to djb-ezmlm-subscribe@koobera.math.uic.edu The first release will be RSN. ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 06:41:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA19240 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA19185 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 97 9:27:21 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9702040927.aa20353@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett: >PS: I just today dealt with a stupid user from AOL. But I don't > see that user's stupidity as a reflection on AOL, but rather > a reflection on stupid people in general. If AOL weren't the > biggest net company around, someone else would be, and _they_ > would have the biggest concentration of stupid people. Correct. Dr CEO, with his 2 whole years on the net, doesn't remember the September influx of .edu newbies we used to dread (no offense intended to our readers in the .edu domain). Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 07:41:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA26997 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:26:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id HAA26924 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA16422; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:24:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA05792; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:24:31 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA19837; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:24:29 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702041524.JAA19837@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: djb@koobera.math.uic.edu (D. J. Bernstein) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:24:29 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19970204051623.24499.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> from "D. J. Bernstein" at Feb 4, 97 05:16:23 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This isn't intended as a flame of Dan Bernstein, but I fail to understand how the behavior he describes for ezmlm is much of an improvement: > Results in sample situations: > > (1) Your account is removed. Messages bounce. Ten days later, ezmlm > sends a warning, which bounces. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a > probe, which bounces. ezmlm removes you from the list. So it takes 20 days for a bad address to get kicked off? I sometimes have 100 messages in a day, so a bad address doesn't get kicked off the list until I've sent out as many as 2000 messages that won't be delivered?? At the moment, I have my limit at 40 messages. This means that an outage of a few hours generally doesn't result in kicking someone off the list, but one of a half day or longer (depending on traffic, recently I'm running about 50/day) probably does. > (2) You briefly run over quota. Your MTA foolishly bounces a few > messages. Ten days later, ezmlm sends its warning, including the > list of missed message numbers. You retrieve the missing messages > from the archive. An interesting feature, but see below. It also assumes that users are smart enough to know how to use a list archive. From my experience, maybe 1/3 of my subscribers can figure that out or bother to, and I think I have a lower percentage of clueless users than some other people on this list do. And I think a lot of system administrators would take umbrage at your statement that bouncing messages because of an exceeded quota is foolish. > (3) You forward copies of incoming mail to a summer account. At the > end of the summer, the account is removed. Messages bounce, > though you don't realize it. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a > warning, which bounces, but you've been alerted to the problem. > You fix the problem. Ten days later, ezmlm sends a probe, which > doesn't bounce. I'm lost here. If my mail is being forwarded to a bad address, how am I alerted to the problem by ezmlm's warning? Or are you assuming that I independently find out about the problem during that 10 day window and correct it? > Warnings and probes are sent from cryptographically secure addresses, so > an attacker can't force you off the list unless he can watch your mail. I'm no expert, but I don't think there's such a thing as a cryptographically secure address for a bulk mailer. Please elucidate. > All of this depends on qmail's VERPs, which reliably identify the > subscription address and message number for every bounce message. Which depends on all MTA's and MUA's that handle the message sending back decipherable bounce messages that uniquely identify both the message and the intended receiver. I haven't written a MLM, but I've worked with both smartlist and majordomo, and there are a lot of situations that neither of them can track down. What's your secret? -- Mike Nolan nolan@tssi.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 08:42:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA04214 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id IAA04134 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com by dirty; Tue Feb 4 11:26:46 EST 1997 Received: from couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com by research; Tue Feb 4 11:23:20 EST 1997 Received: (from tal@localhost) by couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA12847; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Limoncelli Message-Id: <199702041623.LAA12847@couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:23:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org, EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu, brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 2, 97 09:38:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I only skim this mailing list, so sorry if I am bringing up something that has been discussed already. I would be interested in seeing the text of Chuq's message that went out to all these users. I recently did the same kind of thing and got next to no inappropriate responses. The number was low enough that I don't recall whether they were AOL or not. The message was very carefully worded. I'm sure Chuq was careful too, but I betatested my message so, dare I say, I think my message may have been clearer. My message also put the name of the mailing list AND the user's subscription address in the body AND the Subject: line. This meant that extremely misformed bounces had 2 changes of telling me the mailing list/user that was bouncing. Something I later noticed was the few users that replied with, "Yeah, remove me" but no context usually didn't zap their subject line so I was able to guess what they wanted. Basically, I didn't LET the users fuck up. I even tell them how to phrase questions to me if they can't figure out majordomo commands: "I am on ${list}\@plts.org as ${who} but I would rather by on as so_and_so\@where.com". I got some people that used that phrase exactly, then thanked me because they knew what they wanted for months, but didn't know how to phrase the question. I think Chuq didn't test the IQ of AOL users. I think his experiment tested his ability to write clearly for neophyte users. And this, from the company that prides itself on making the computer "for the rest of us". Attached is the formletter that I sent out. -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@dnrc.bell-labs.com (work) -- tal@plts.org (play) "A bend in the road is not the end of the road unless you fail to make the turn." [ NOTE: This form letter users perl'isms such as "$who" to substitute the variable "who" at that point, etc. ] To: $who Subject: subscription check (${list}\@plts.org: $who) From: listcheck\@plts.org Reply-To: listcheck\@plts.org This is a subscription check. Automatically generated by ListCheck. DO NOT REPLY UNLESS SOME OF THE INFORMATION BELOW IS INCORRECT. On the mailing list called: ${list}\@plts.org You are subscribed by the name: $who DO YOU WANT TO BE REMOVED FROM THIS MAILING LIST? If this is so, please send email to majordomo\@plts.org with the words unsubscribe ${list} ${who} on the first line of the message. If this does not work, please write to tal\@plts.org and he will manually process the request. (If you forward this message to him he will read your email address from the headers and do the right thing.) IF YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS IS WRONG: If you are receiving this message, the address is in some ways correct or is forwarded to you. Maybe mail to an old account is being forwarded or your company name has changed and the old address is working temporarily. We would prefer to have your new address. (Since AT&T's trivestiture many our our subscribers have new addresses [old addresses will stop working Dec 31, 1996]) TO CORRECT YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS: Please send email to tal\@plts.org and request that the change be made. He is not psychic, but if you forward this message to him he can read your old and new information from the headers. Otherwise, email him with explicit instructions ("I am on ${list}\@plts.org as ${who} but I would rather by on as so_and_so\@where.com") LOCAL FORWARDING TO MULTIPLE PEOPLE: You may get this message because someone forwards it to you (and maybe a couple friends) automatically. If this is so, you should talk to them if you want to discontinue your subscription or change your address. IF YOU GET EVERY MESSAGE TWICE: Please send email to tal\@plts.org ...we'd love to fix the problem. IF YOU ARE GOING ON AN EXTENDED VACATION: If you would like to be removed for a month or more and then be re-added automatically, send the "start and stop" dates and name of the list to tal\@plts.org and he will do his best to accommodate you. (Students: Please remember this in the spring!) Otherwise, please delete this message. You do not need to reply. You will receive this message once for each PLTS mailing list that you are on. PLTS will be sending this message about twice a year. Thank you, ListCheck From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 09:25:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09527 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kim.teleport.com (kim.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA09510 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:19:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 708661617 (ip-pdx02-20.teleport.com [206.163.123.57]) by kim.teleport.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09927 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:17:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970204091802.00f8cb60@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 09:20:06 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rae French Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #28 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:00 AM 2/4/97 -0800, you wrote: > >List-Managers-Digest Tuesday, February 4 1997 Volume 06 : Number 028 What's the deal with the digests having the same Volume and Number for days now? Just got my 7th "Volume 06 : Number 028" Rae French From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 09:41:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA10300 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:25:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA10289 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net (Dial10.tgn.Net [205.241.85.40]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA01279 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:26:22 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970204173006.006d1f94@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 11:30:06 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: whowhere.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:29 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Gess wrote: >I have found an address in a couple of my lists with the address of >xxxlist@whowhere.com > >Does anyone know if whowhere.com is archiving lists? Or is >whowhere.com another email provider like juno? In viewing their Web site at: they appear to be an e-mail address search service. I have a hunch that what they are archiving from your lists, are your subscriber's e-mail addresses. Use your imagination to what they are probably doing with their database of e-mail addresses. I had a bad taste in my mouth viewing that site. My gut reaction is that they are a commercial mailing list firm collecting e-mail addresses for the purposes of serving clients who want to send bulk e-mail unsolicited commercial messages. Their e-mail look-up service looks like a front to me. Can we say "Spam" boys and girls? Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 09:56:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA14237 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from webex.webex.com (webex.webex.com [205.139.142.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA14219 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.139.142.60] (vknelson.webex.com [205.139.142.60]) by webex.webex.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA10843; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:58:24 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970204091802.00f8cb60@mail.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:58:12 -0600 To: Rae French From: Valencia King Nelson Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #28 Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:20 AM -0800 2/4/97, Rae French wrote: >ist-Managers-Digest Tuesday, February 4 1997 Volume 06 : Number 028 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> "To Find and Give the Best" Valencia King Nelson mailto:vknelson@webex.com African Ancestored Family Studies Anniston, AL (205 )820-8794 voice (205 )820-8339 fax-data From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 09:59:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA12164 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:38:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA12125 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 3001 invoked by uid 666); 4 Feb 1997 17:44:03 -0000 Date: 4 Feb 1997 17:44:02 -0000 Message-ID: <19970204174402.3000.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > So it takes 20 days for a bad address to get kicked off? That's right. This gives people time to fix configuration errors. > so a bad address doesn't get kicked off the list > until I've sent out as many as 2000 messages that won't be delivered?? Right. What's the problem? It's not as if you have to read the bounces. Only the first one is saved, so you don't need much disk space. > It also assumes that users Some users won't read the warning, but many users appreciate seeing the missing message numbers and the first bounce message. > are smart enough to know how to use a list archive. Oh, yes, how silly of me to forget. Users are so stupid. The trouble they have has nothing to do with the design of the command interface or the quality of the instructions they receive. ``Send a message to joe-sos-get#12345@isp.net to retrieve message 12345'' is just as confusing as ``... get : Get a file related to . ... Commands should be sent in the body of an email message ...'' > And I think a lot of system administrators would take umbrage at your > statement that bouncing messages because of an exceeded quota is foolish. Bouncing messages because of a _temporarily_ exceeded quota is a bug. This bug was in many versions of binmail but was fixed in mail.local. > I'm lost here. If my mail is being forwarded to a bad address, ``You forward copies of incoming mail to a summer account.'' Copies. > I'm no expert, but I don't think there's such a thing as a cryptographically > secure address for a bulk mailer. Please elucidate. Warnings and probes are not sent in bulk. > > All of this depends on qmail's VERPs, which reliably identify the > > subscription address and message number for every bounce message. > Which depends on all MTA's and MUA's that handle the message sending back > decipherable bounce messages that uniquely identify both the message and > the intended receiver. Wrong. The contents of the bounce message are irrelevant. You obviously have no idea what VERPs are, so I don't understand how you could possibly feel competent to contradict my comments about them. You should have asked, ``Really? DSN needs support from all intermediate hosts as well as the final MTA. Do these `VERPs' remove that limitation? Can VERPs deal with hosts that return completely uninformative bounce messages?'' And I would have answered, ``Yes. DSN is obsolete. Subscribe to the ezmlm mailing list and you'll see how VERPs work.'' ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 10:26:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA18458 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:21:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA18402 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id LAA20835 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:19:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702041819.LAA20835@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Use your imagination to what they are probably doing with their To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:19:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Use your imagination to what (www.whowhere.com) are probably doing with > their database of e-mail addresses. I had a bad taste in my mouth > viewing that site. My gut reaction is that they are a commercial > mailing list firm collecting e-mail addresses for the purposes > of serving clients who want to send bulk e-mail unsolicited > commercial messages. Well, maybe. What I did notice is that their database is so completely broad as to be utterly useless -- a search on my name turned up: * A half-dozen old university class accounts dating back to 1985 * A dozen or so variations on a more permanent university account I held circa 1989-1993 (lazlo@hydra.unm.edu, lazlo@ariel.unm.edu, lazlo%hydra.unm.edu@ariel.unm.edu, etc.). * Three or four variations on an account at my old provider, including one at the domain address they were forced to surrender to another entity under threat of legal action * A couple of addresses I have no idea what the hell they are and (out of 37 "matches") * Two current and valid addresses that will actually get email to me. While I'd love to have copies of all the old Usenet posts they used to troll out these addresses for me, I do think it's a little misleading of them to present about three dozen old invalid email addresses as "Highly relevant" ways to contact me. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 10:41:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA19952 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA19885 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:31:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id LAA20910 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:29:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702041829.LAA20910@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:29:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> so a bad address doesn't get kicked off the list >> until I've sent out as many as 2000 messages that won't be delivered?? > > Right. What's the problem? It's not as if you have to read the bounces. > Only the first one is saved, so you don't need much disk space. Yes, but by that time you've wasted a huge amount of resources in attempting to deliver those 2000 messages. I assume the 20-day setting is configurable in your software? I'd haul it down to three days or so, personally. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 10:49:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22254 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA22221 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:46:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA26681; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:41:21 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970204104609.00a8d39c@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 10:54:57 -0800 To: "Alan S. Harrell" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: whowhere.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, webmaster@whowhere.com, postmaster@whowhere.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Note: I'm CC'ing this message from list-managers to the webmaster and postmaster at whowhere.com, in case they want to respond.] At 11:30 AM 2/4/97 -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >At 10:29 PM 2/3/97 -0500, Gess wrote: >>I have found an address in a couple of my lists with the address of >>xxxlist@whowhere.com >>Does anyone know if whowhere.com is archiving lists? Or is >>whowhere.com another email provider like juno? > In viewing their Web site at: they appear > to be an e-mail address search service. I have a hunch that > what they are archiving from your lists, are your subscriber's > e-mail addresses. This is undoubtedly true. > Use your imagination to what they are probably doing with their > database of e-mail addresses. I had a bad taste in my mouth > viewing that site. My gut reaction is that they are a commercial > mailing list firm collecting e-mail addresses for the purposes > of serving clients who want to send bulk e-mail unsolicited > commercial messages. Their e-mail look-up service looks like a > front to me. This I sincerely doubt. Rather, I think what they're doing is building a list of people with "similar interests" -- did you see their page about communities? -- and therefore, if they know someone is active on the LSH-L mailing list, and they know it's the "Legion of Super-Heroes comics mailing list", they guess that person is interested in comics (and LSH comics in particular). So if someone searches for a "John Adams" who is into Legion comics, they may find norg@lsh.org. That's what _my_ imagination tells _me_. Whether or not this is a valid use of your lists is something you'll have to decide for yourself, I suppose. I at least would write to them and ask what's up. It's entirely possible that they have a staff of dozens of employees, and they've set up a local reflector for your list at their site. > Can we say "Spam" boys and girls? We can all _say_ it, but our speaking ability was never in question; it's whether or not we're applying it correctly. From their "Usage Agreement" page (http://www.whowhere.com/About/agree.html), WhoWhere would seem to be as anti-spam as anyone else out there. They have clearly stated opposition to mass mailings by commercial companies, so I'd be _amazed_ if they were then turning around and doing what you suspect. It's one thing to be anti-spam, but it's another thing to start a witch hunt and begin slapping scarlet "S"es on people just because your imagination guesses they MIGHT be spammers. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` I finally updated my homepage! From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 11:04:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA24423 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA24405 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8071 invoked by uid 305); 4 Feb 1997 18:59:58 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (lm) Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general References: <199702041829.LAA20910@llama.swcp.com> From: Paul Graham Date: 04 Feb 1997 13:59:57 -0500 In-Reply-To: "Lazlo Nibble"'s message of Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:29:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.10/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk you get the source, everything is configurable. of course this package depends on qmail to you have to make that adjustment first. >>>>> "Lazlo" == Lazlo Nibble writes: Lazlo> I assume the 20-day setting is configurable in your software? Lazlo> I'd haul it down to three days or so, personally. -- paul pjg(at)acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 11:19:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA26056 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA26047 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8744 invoked by uid 305); 4 Feb 1997 19:14:19 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general References: <199702041524.JAA19837@celery.tssi.com> From: Paul Graham Date: 04 Feb 1997 14:14:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: Mike Nolan's message of Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:24:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.10/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ezmlm (and listserv) can generate per recipient SMTP RCPT strings. it depends on a transport which can deal with wildcard address on incoming mail (qmail and lsmtp can). most transport systems will do the right thing and return the bounce to the magic-cookie address but some gateways are notorious for doing the wrong thing. the bounce address will then tell you where it came from. e.g. RCPT TO: the thing that answers djb-qmail-owner mail gets pjg=acsu.Buffalo.EDU as an argument. i wanted to use a listserv one because they're even more baroque but i don't have one handy. >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Nolan writes: Mike> Which depends on all MTA's and MUA's that handle the message Mike> sending back decipherable bounce messages that uniquely identify Mike> both the message and the intended receiver. -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 11:30:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA26142 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA26093 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id LAA01955; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:12:24 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702041623.LAA12847@couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 2, 97 09:38:58 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:06:57 -0800 To: Tom Limoncelli , chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror Cc: mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org, EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu, brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:23 AM -0800 2/4/97, Tom Limoncelli wrote: >I would be interested in seeing the text of Chuq's message that went >out to all these users. Here you go. Suggestions welcome. Note that the mailer program puts a short paragraph ahead of this with the subscribed address in it and noting that this address is on ony of my mailing lists. --- This message is a test of the address you've used to subscribe to one or more of the mailing lists on solutions.apple.com. You do not need to take any action to remain subscribed to the list. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. If you receive it, you should do nothing except delete it. There are mail systems attached to the Internet that do not return information that allows us to properly maintain the mailing list subscriptions when accounts on those sites are deleted. Because of this, every so often, we have to send out a test message like this that has been specially encoded to allow us to look for bounced/returned mail and find the address that it was sent to. If all mail systems followed the rules, this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately, though, it is. If your mail is working normally, this mail is delivered to you, you delete it, and everything is fine. The only mail we care about is the mail that is returned to us, since that flags the accounts that are no longer functional. These messages are coded to identify the address we've sent to, so we can find those on our subscription lists and delete them. We apologize for the junk mail. If there we could use a different system that didn't intrude into your mail box, we'd use it. Because of the loads these malfunctioning addresses cause on our servers, every few months we need to track them down and remove them, and this is the most reliable way of doing so. If you have any questions about this, please contact postmaster@solutions.apple.com. Please do NOT reply to this message or send other e-mail to this address, or you risk it being taken as a bounce message by our processing software and having your subscription terminated by accident. Sincerely, Chuq Von Rospach (postmaster@solutions.apple.com) Apple IS&T Network Servers Mail List Gnome -- >I recently did the same kind of thing and got next to no inappropriate >responses. The number was low enough that I don't recall whether they >were AOL or not. The message was very carefully worded. I'm sure Chuq >was careful too, but I betatested my message so, dare I say, I think my >message may have been clearer. I wouldn't be surprised. Also realize that this is the first time I've done an address probe since I started solutions, so there's up to two years of accumulated "stuff" I'm cleaning up. >My message also put the name of the mailing list AND the user's >subscription address in the body AND the Subject: line. I put the subscribed address in three places: subject, first paragraph of the body, and in an X- header. So far, I've only run into a couple of sites that strip all three of them (and yes, there are a couple that do, but fortunately, I could backtrack to find the addresses anyway. sheesh) I didn't have list information in there because of the sheer number of lists and the complexity of trying to build a unique set of addresses for the site and tying list names to them. More programming hassle than I wanted to do this round. >This meant >that extremely misformed bounces had 2 changes of telling me the >mailing list/user that was bouncing. Something I later noticed was the >few users that replied with, "Yeah, remove me" but no context usually >didn't zap their subject line so I was able to guess what they wanted. > >Basically, I didn't LET the users fuck up. Yup. I'm handling both sets, but it's interesting to see who follows directions and who don't. Right now, it's about 55% following directions, but if you split that up, people who want their address CHANGED have a high rate of following the directions, and people who just want their subscriptions dumped have a very high rate of ignoring the instructions. Which kinda figures, because since I mail instructions twice a month, the ones most likely to ignore instructions would teh be ones in this situation... >I think Chuq didn't test the IQ of AOL users. I think his >experiment tested his ability to write clearly for neophyte users. >And this, from the company that prides itself on making the computer >"for the rest of us". Shrug. I disagree, but I'm open to feedback. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 11:37:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA28148 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA28103 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6212 invoked by uid 666); 4 Feb 1997 19:32:33 -0000 Date: 4 Feb 1997 19:32:33 -0000 Message-ID: <19970204193233.6211.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Yes, but by that time you've wasted a huge amount of resources in attempting > to deliver those 2000 messages. Mm-hm. This, of course, is so much more important than the resources that you put into millions of successful deliveries. And, of course, mail is such a massive burden to begin with---it's almost 5% of the Internet's traffic! (Yes, okay, the percentage is decreasing, and it decreased more this year than it did last year, but the _increase_ in the decrease has been _decreasing_! Aack! Run away!) And, of course, mail messages have so little overhead. They're fed through such a modern compression algorithm, and make such good use of the 8 bits in a byte (``Really? I thought TCP only supported 7!''), and have such a well-designed header format, not to mention bounce format. There'd be no way for us to reduce mail volume. And, of course, people are using the fastest possible mailers. We're really up against a wall in MTA performance. Inescapable conclusion: The Internet is about to be overloaded with bounce messages. We'd better start charging $1 per bounce message before it's too late. ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 12:24:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id MAA03854 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:06:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from slug.swcp.com (slug.swcp.com [198.59.115.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA03781 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by slug.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA23285 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:04:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199702042004.NAA23285@slug.swcp.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:04:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Yes, but by that time you've wasted a huge amount of resources in attempting >> to deliver those 2000 messages. > > Mm-hm. > > This, of course, is so much more important than the resources that you > put into millions of successful deliveries. If removing bounced messages from mailing lists in a timely manner is so unimportant, why did you bother to write this software in the first place? > Inescapable conclusion: The Internet is about to be overloaded with > bounce messages. Probably not. This particular corner of the net, however, seems to be burdened with an overload of smartass software developers. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 12:35:03 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA29406 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:40:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA29389 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:40:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id LAA03809; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:39:49 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970204174402.3000.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:25:53 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:44 AM -0800 2/4/97, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >> so a bad address doesn't get kicked off the list >> until I've sent out as many as 2000 messages that won't be delivered?? > >Right. What's the problem? It's not as if you have to read the bounces. >Only the first one is saved, so you don't need much disk space. Um, processor overhead? network bandwidth wastage? If I tried this on MACWAY, with 51,000 users and the associated turnover, my system would crawl to a halt just handling errors. Trust me... Things that work nicely for small installations don't always scale well to very large elephants. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 12:49:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA29216 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA29136 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by math.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17868 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA11860 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:35:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702041935.OAA11860@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 Feb 1997 14:01:44 GMT." <199702032050.PAA24476@www6.clever.net> References: <199702032050.PAA24476@www6.clever.net> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:35:54 -0500 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199702032050.PAA24476@www6.clever.net>, "Dr. Manion" writes: >You see, Brad wants everyone to come up with the solution to his/AOL >problems. I was nodding head in general agreement with what you are saying until you spouted off this doozy. This statement is totally unfair, and contrary to both statments and actions made by AOL. > But, that's what he gets paid for. To solve the problems. I stopped counting the number of run-on sentences you made. But anyway, Brad, and AOL _does_ solve problems. (obviously they do since they're the only one with access to their source code). Stop making statements like this which are obviously incorrect. >It's not my job to solve the problem for him so he can collect a pay >check. It's not your job to whine, bitch, and moan, either. You may be entitled to it, but at least give AOL the benefit of the doubt. >How would you feel if I came to you and said, "Chuq, my client needs a >CGI program to do this and he's paying me $500/hr. to provide it to >him. Would you mind doing it for free?" > >What would your response be? That you're asking a stupid question which has absolutely no relevance to the discussion here. There is no client paying $500/hr. There is noone asking anyone to fix anything for free. There's AOL, and staff saying "hey, we don't have all the answers. We don't even have all the questions. Here's a suggestion box." >That's the response I am giving Brad. The one you feel is >"rightious". You see, it's not my job to find his solutions. So then don't give him any! Just go away and don't give a damn about AOL, or anyone who has to deal with AOL. Some of us aren't so self-important, and are willing to contribute to the greater good, even if the greater good is AOL. (and conversely AOL is willing to contribute to the greater good, even if the greater good includes you) --Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 12:51:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05491 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA05442 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:18:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net (Dial10.tgn.Net [205.241.85.40]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA06524 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:18:57 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970204202242.00736f68@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 14:22:42 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: whowhere.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:54 AM 2/4/97 -0800, Kynn resps me: [...] >> Use your imagination to what they are probably doing with their >> database of e-mail addresses. I had a bad taste in my mouth >> viewing that site. My gut reaction is that they are a commercial >> mailing list firm collecting e-mail addresses for the purposes >> of serving clients who want to send bulk e-mail unsolicited >> commercial messages. Their e-mail look-up service looks like a >> front to me. > >This I sincerely doubt. Rather, I think what they're doing is >building a list of people with "similar interests" -- did you see >their page about communities? -- and therefore, if they know >someone is active on the LSH-L mailing list, and they know it's >the "Legion of Super-Heroes comics mailing list", they guess that >person is interested in comics (and LSH comics in particular). Perhaps. I did indicate this was a "gut reaction" on my part, rather than an evidentiary testimony. And yes, I saw that as a part of their service, they provided a pen-pals' exchange. This, however, did not convince me of their altruism, but rather just another vehicle to secure more e-mail addresses. Lazlo's discovery of an outdated database in a search of his own name, as well as the search I did for myself demonstrates to me that this company is run pretty sloppy. I have to believe that the quantity of e-mail addresses they can collect is more important to them than the quality. I receive spam from mailers who have the message addressed to old addresses of mine and it forwards to the newer addresses. I get the idea that spammers are pretty gullible about the reliability of the addresses they have on hand, so someone like whowhere.com could dump a bunch of addresses on a spammer and they really wouldn't care. I just can't visualize spammers working over their bounces the way we listowners do. In fact, I doubt few are even seen by them. So...a company like whowhere.com could get away with a poor database, as the only thing they require are large numbers of e-mail addresses. Another thing to consider in light of their "Communities" is that this is a process whereby they can sort out the addresses by interests and profiles to sell to their commercial clients at a premium, as some mailers might prefer their bulk e-mail addresses to be aimed at a target audience. So once again, their "Communities" and pen-pal services looks like a front to me for their real purpose. >So if someone searches for a "John Adams" who is into Legion >comics, they may find norg@lsh.org. > >That's what _my_ imagination tells _me_. Oh certainly. For those individuals that participate, they may indeed find friendship and common bonds through this service, however, I think they improve the odds of receiving spam in their inboxes at some future date. A better source to find people of common interest is to do your search on Liszt.com or Vivian Neou's List of Lists. I think it's best to find the group that interests you first, then find your newfound friends in that group. I always had the impression that Scotty Southwick of Liszt.com was on the up-and-up. Lazy as all get out, but very honorable. I think we all fairly safe participating in that site. >Whether or not this is a valid use of your lists is something >you'll have to decide for yourself, I suppose. Well, for my lists, I really don't have to worry about this. My lists are kept anonymous and the entire subscribership can only be seen by my eyes. The only e-mail addresses that can be obtained, are those that actually post to the list. >I at least would write to them and ask what's up. Again, there's no need for me to do this. I manually handle subscription orders, so if I saw a request from whowhere.com, I probably would just trash it. Even if I was asleep and let it pass through, I don't think they would stay long when they realized they are not going to be able to pick up that many addresses. As for yourself, if upon a check of your subscriber base, you do not see any whowhere.com subscribers, then I should not think there is any need for being concerned. >It's entirely possible that they have a staff of dozens of employees, >and they've set up a local reflector for your list at their site. Ah huh. >> Can we say "Spam" boys and girls? > >We can all _say_ it, but our speaking ability was never in question; >it's whether or not we're applying it correctly. From their >"Usage Agreement" page (http://www.whowhere.com/About/agree.html), >WhoWhere would seem to be as anti-spam as anyone else out there. >They have clearly stated opposition to mass mailings by commercial >companies, so I'd be _amazed_ if they were then turning around and >doing what you suspect. Here's where my gut reaction came into play again. I read their agreement and what ran through my mind was that it was a warning to their competitors to keep out of their vaults. Yes it was all high and mighty and fairly standard as user agreements go. But I read nothing that holds a gun to their head making them keep their side of the agreement. They are not sending spam out themselves. They are selling e-mail addresses and I just have a pretty good hunch they are not being discriminant in whom they sell their addresses. >It's one thing to be anti-spam, but it's another thing to start a >witch hunt and begin slapping scarlet "S"es on people just because >your imagination guesses they MIGHT be spammers. Aw come on, Kynn. Let a guy have a little fun playing witch hunt. I just may be onto something here as it seems they've "cast a spell" on you. ;-) Alan --------------------------------- Alan S. Harrell Administrator - Juno_accmail List Owner/Publisher - ASHcan-L --------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 12:59:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA01293 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id LAA01057 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from research.research.bell-labs.com by dirty; Tue Feb 4 14:47:17 EST 1997 Received: from couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com by research; Tue Feb 4 14:45:22 EST 1997 Received: (from tal@localhost) by couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA19443; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:45:21 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Limoncelli Message-Id: <199702041945.OAA19443@couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:45:21 -0500 (EST) Cc: tal@dnrc.bell-labs.com, chuqui@plaidworks.com, mcook@pcusa01.ecunet.org, EALLENSMITH@ocelot.rutgers.edu, brad@his.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 4, 97 11:06:57 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Let me try to give some constructive suggestions: > At 8:23 AM -0800 2/4/97, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > > >I would be interested in seeing the text of Chuq's message that went > >out to all these users. > > Here you go. Suggestions welcome. Note that the mailer program puts a > short paragraph ahead of > this with the subscribed address in it and noting that this address is > on ony of my mailing lists. Three principles of business writing: 1. Brevity. 2. Nobody reads beyond the first paragraph. (well, really that should be "The first paragraph should tell the reader if they need to read more than the first paragraph) 3. A well-labeled table is better than a paragraph. That's why my first paragraph was very specific: You are on mailing list FOO as BAR and if this is OK, stop reading. Your goal of sending one message per person is a good one. Since you are condensing "list1, name1", "list2, name2" and name1 == name2, you could say: $ This is a subscription check. Automatically generated by ListCheck. $ $ DO NOT REPLY UNLESS SOME OF THE INFORMATION BELOW IS INCORRECT. $ $ You are subscribed by the name: name@place # On the mailing list called: list1 $ and on the mailing list called: list2 $ and on the mailing list called: list3 > --- > This message is a test of the address you've used to subscribe to one > or more of the mailing lists on solutions.apple.com. You do not need > to take any action to remain subscribed to the list. > > DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. If you receive it, you should do nothing > except delete it. I think this line wouldn't be on the first screen-full on a Mac, xterm, AOL screen, etc. > There are mail systems attached to the Internet that do not return > information that allows us to properly maintain the mailing list > subscriptions when accounts on those sites are deleted. Because of > this, every so often, we have to send out a test message like this that > has been specially encoded to allow us to look for bounced/returned > mail and find the address that it was sent to. If all mail systems > followed the rules, this wouldn't be necessary. Unfortunately, though, > it is. The above is technical detail that the average person doesn't understand. Could this be moved to a web page and replace this paragraph with "For technical details, check http://...." > If your mail is working normally, this mail is delivered to you, you > delete it, and everything is fine. The only mail we care about is the > mail that is returned to us, since that flags the accounts that are no > longer functional. These messages are coded to identify the address > we've sent to, so we can find those on our subscription lists and > delete them. My eyes glazed over after this paragraph and I understood it :-) > We apologize for the junk mail. If there we could use a different system > that didn't intrude into your mail box, we'd use it. Because of the > loads these malfunctioning addresses cause on our servers, every few > months we need to track them down and remove them, and this is the most > reliable way of doing so. > > If you have any questions about this, please contact > postmaster@solutions.apple.com. Please do NOT reply to this message or > send other e-mail to this address, or you risk it being taken as a > bounce message by our processing software and having your subscription > terminated by accident. > > Sincerely, > > Chuq Von Rospach (postmaster@solutions.apple.com) > Apple IS&T Network Servers > Mail List Gnome > -- > > >I recently did the same kind of thing and got next to no inappropriate > >responses. The number was low enough that I don't recall whether they > >were AOL or not. The message was very carefully worded. I'm sure Chuq > >was careful too, but I betatested my message so, dare I say, I think my > >message may have been clearer. > > I wouldn't be surprised. Also realize that this is the first time I've > done an address probe since I started solutions, so there's up to two > years of accumulated "stuff" I'm cleaning up. I had 4 years of accumulation, but I don't have mailing lists as astoundingly huge as yours. > >My message also put the name of the mailing list AND the user's > >subscription address in the body AND the Subject: line. > > I put the subscribed address in three places: subject, first paragraph > of the body, and in an X- header. So far, I've only run into a couple > of sites that strip all three of them (and yes, there are a couple that > do, but fortunately, I could backtrack to find the addresses anyway. > sheesh) The guy that wrote qmail (Dan) he included an RFC for making the envelope error's to be something like list-owner=user.foo@listhost.com so that if you bounced it to "list-owner=user.foo@listhost.com" it would go to the "list-owner" mailbox (if you configured your system right), but then you could tell what address was really bounced. > I didn't have list information in there because of the sheer number of > lists and the complexity of trying to build a unique set of addresses > for the site and tying list names to them. More programming hassle than > I wanted to do this round. If your input file looked like: user@host list1 list2 list3 user@host list1 list2 list3 user@host list1 list2 list3 (which can be generated by simple awk scripts) you can use the format I suggested above. > >This meant > >that extremely misformed bounces had 2 changes of telling me the > >mailing list/user that was bouncing. Something I later noticed was the > >few users that replied with, "Yeah, remove me" but no context usually > >didn't zap their subject line so I was able to guess what they wanted. > > > >Basically, I didn't LET the users fuck up. > > Yup. I'm handling both sets, but it's interesting to see who follows > directions and who don't. Right now, it's about 55% following > directions, but if you split that up, people who want their address > CHANGED have a high rate of following the directions, and people who > just want their subscriptions dumped have a very high rate of ignoring > the instructions. Which kinda figures, because since I mail > instructions twice a month, the ones most likely to ignore instructions > would teh be ones in this situation... I got a very different ratio. I hightly recommend beta testing. We engineers are horrible writers. I had to design a series of tests to figure out what works best. In hindsight, I should have asked a person from our tech-pubs group. --tal -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@dnrc.bell-labs.com (work) -- tal@plts.org (play) "A bend in the road is not the end of the road unless you fail to make the turn." From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 13:19:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id MAA10380 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id MAA10367 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 12:54:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.76]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:15 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:12 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199702042052.10903.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: chuqui@plaidworks.com CC: djb@koobera.math.uic.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:25:53 -0800) Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Chuq von Rospach] | Um, processor overhead? network bandwidth wastage? These are negligible compared to the resources consumed on _successful_ delivieries. Okay, on my Sendmail installation, I expect I could run into problems, since Sendmail handles large queues rather badly (you get long queues when sites are down, not because of the odd faulty address). But to use ezmlm you must be running qmail anyhow. | Things that work nicely for small installations don't always scale | well to very large elephants. If it doesn't scale, you're using the wrong tools. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 13:34:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA13315 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA13306 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:21:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA30635; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:19:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:19:50 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Dave Barr Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL In-Reply-To: <199702041935.OAA11860@augusta.math.psu.edu> Message-Id: X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Dave Barr wrote: > >That's the response I am giving Brad. The one you feel is > >"rightious". You see, it's not my job to find his solutions. > > So then don't give him any! Just go away and don't give a damn about > AOL, or anyone who has to deal with AOL. Some of us aren't so > self-important, and are willing to contribute to the greater good, > even if the greater good is AOL. (and conversely AOL is willing > to contribute to the greater good, even if the greater good includes you) Dave, it's that he's not wiling to fix with the suggestion box with suggestions. It's counter-productive to complain about problems but not describe what they are. If somebody has a problem AND WANTS IT FIXED, they better damned well describe the problem -- otherwise nobody's better off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 13:44:17 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA14324 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA14251 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21625; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:29:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA08978; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:29:23 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24008; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:29:20 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702042129.PAA24008@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: djb@koobera.math.uic.edu (D. J. Bernstein) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:29:20 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19970204174402.3000.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> from "D. J. Bernstein" at Feb 4, 97 05:44:02 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > So it takes 20 days for a bad address to get kicked off? > > That's right. This gives people time to fix configuration errors. A configuration error that lasts 20 days is more than just a configuration error problem. > > so a bad address doesn't get kicked off the list > > until I've sent out as many as 2000 messages that won't be delivered?? > > Right. What's the problem? It's not as if you have to read the bounces. > Only the first one is saved, so you don't need much disk space. As others have pointed out, bandwidth is one problem. I have a dinky little 33KB PPP link to the Internet that's handling over 500,000 messages/month, plus web traffic, etc. Cutting out 2000 messages might not be a huge savings, but like my grandmother's chicken soup, it couldn't hurt! Forgive me my age here, I started programming back in the days when an 8K machine was considered LARGE, and being parsimonious of memory, disk, and CPU time was a virtue. I guess I would never make it working for Microsoft. :-) > Some users won't read the warning, but many users appreciate seeing the > missing message numbers and the first bounce message. But I thought you were only saving the first bounce, so you must be saving the missing messages somewhere else, and that has got to take up SOME disk space. Perhaps you have unlimited resources, but I don't. > > And I think a lot of system administrators would take umbrage at your > > statement that bouncing messages because of an exceeded quota is foolish. > > Bouncing messages because of a _temporarily_ exceeded quota is a bug. > This bug was in many versions of binmail but was fixed in mail.local. Um, define temporary here. 5 minutes? 30 minutes? 20 days? > > I'm lost here. If my mail is being forwarded to a bad address, > > ``You forward copies of incoming mail to a summer account.'' Copies. OK, so if I'm keeping a copy at my main account, what do I need the list of missing messages for? > You obviously have no idea what VERPs are, so I don't understand how you > could possibly feel competent to contradict my comments about them. I think I said that I'm not an expert. I'm not on this list because I think I'm a net.god, I'm on it to learn. Can't you be informative or instructive without insulting me, too? > And I would have answered, ``Yes. DSN is obsolete. Subscribe to the > ezmlm mailing list and you'll see how VERPs work.'' At the moment, I'm not all that interested in subjecting myself to your abuse in your own sandbox. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 13:49:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA15883 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from pine.liii.com ([198.207.193.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA15867; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from rowan.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA04870; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:47:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (denic@localhost) by rowan.liii.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA02708; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:47:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rowan.liii.com: denic owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:47:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis N. Aruta" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Password????? In-Reply-To: <199702042059.MAA11061@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI I was connected to AOL, via TCP/IP when I received the following message. It was in the form of an Instant Message. I forwarded it to SteveCase, below and am waiting for a reply... >From DennisA686@aol.com Tue Feb 4 16:43:58 1997 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:10:29 -0500 (EST) From: DennisA686@aol.com To: SteveCase@aol.com Cc: denic@liii.com Subject: What is this CRAP? K9LXW: Hello valued America Online customer! Despite the warning at the bottom of this message (which our programmers are working hard to disable for AOL Employees) we have lost your record containing your password. Until it is entered back into the computer, you will not be able to log-on again, you will recieve and INVALID PASSWORD error. If you could assist us with this problem. Just click 'RESPOND' and enter your password. Thank you! --AOL Customer Service I just received this message..... Dennis N. Aruta Dennis Aruta, Owner Denar Chartering (since 1969) ShipChartering Agents Owner International Commerce List, IC-L Publishers Agent for TRADE texts, and BUSINESS Publications Computer books, CD roms, WEB guides http://www.netins.net/showcase/commerce Denar Chartering Inc. phone: 516-326-2300 fax 516-326-2519 P.O.Box 1147, Denar House telex: 4971419, 427222, 825641 New Hyde Park, New York e-mail denic@liii.com 11040-0420 U.S.A. ====================== http://www.liii.com/~denic From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 14:19:01 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA18194 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:07:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA18145 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8213 invoked by uid 666); 4 Feb 1997 22:12:27 -0000 Date: 4 Feb 1997 22:12:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19970204221226.8212.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If removing bounced messages from mailing lists in a timely manner is so > unimportant, why did you bother to write this software in the first place? Here's the easiest way to put bounces in perspective. How long does a subscription address stick around before it starts bouncing? Bad addresses usually don't make it past the confirmation system. Good addresses are often updated properly or removed as time goes by; even when they aren't, they usually stay good for a few years. Let's conservatively estimate that the average lifetime is two years. If an address goes bad, and you kick it off the list after a few weeks, there's not much wasted mail---3% extra, plus bounces, totalling 6%. If you keep delivering mail to the address for ten years, that's 400% wasted mail, plus bounces, totalling 800%. Reducing 800% to 6% is, I think, worth a bit of probing code. Bad old addresses shouldn't stick around forever. ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 15:48:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22313 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA22265 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:38:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702042238.OAA22265@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 2850; Tue, 04 Feb 97 23:31:18 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 4672; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:31:17 +0100 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:26:20 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:12 +0100 (MET) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:12 +0100 (MET) Kjetil Torgrim Homme said: >[Chuq von Rospach] > >| Um, processor overhead? network bandwidth wastage? > >These are negligible compared to the resources consumed on >_successful_ delivieries. This is always incorrect for the sending site and almost always incorrect for the receiving site. Eric From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 15:50:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23781 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:49:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA23610 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id OAA29367; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:44:04 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199702042244.OAA29367@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: Password????? To: denic@liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Dennis N. Aruta" at Feb 4, 97 04:47:01 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > FYI > I was connected to AOL, via TCP/IP when I received the following message. > It was in the form of an Instant Message. > I forwarded it to SteveCase, below and am waiting for a reply... Abuse@aol.com or some other internal address would probably work better. > Subject: What is this CRAP? > K9LXW: Hello valued America Online customer! Despite the warning at the > bottom of this message (which our programmers are working hard to disable for > AOL Employees) we have lost your record containing your password. Until it is > entered back into the computer, you will not be able to log-on again, you > will recieve and INVALID PASSWORD error. If you could assist us with this > problem. Just click 'RESPOND' and enter your password. Thank you! > --AOL Customer Service > I just received this message..... > Dennis N. Aruta Well, it's OBVIOUS what the crap is. Someone trying to pass themselves off as AOL Customer Service to steal your password. Poke around the AOL user help screens and you'll find the right place to report this. But why list-managers? --Kynn From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 15:56:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22968 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA22920 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:43:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa19054; 4 Feb 97 14:42 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Feb 97 14:18:15 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Undeliverable message (fwd) From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Feb 97 14:13:52 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone give me a hand with this one? I have a bounce every day. I write to - no answer. The next day, another bounce. No clue who is the culprit, who may possibly be forwarding mail from his account on my list to another. Any suggestions? > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 03:58:41 -0400 > From: POSTMASTER@adrus.com > To: owner-nerdnosh@sasquatch.com > Subject: Undeliverable message > > ------- Failure Reasons -------- > > Message has exceeded maximum hop count > > ------- Returned Message -------- > Received: from adrus.com by adrus.com (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.01.02 (238.7 10-8-19 > Received: from adrus.com by adrus.com (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.01.02 (238.7 10-8-19 > Received: from adrus.com by adrus.com (Lotus SMTP MTA v1.01.02 (238.7 10-8-19 ..and it goes on like that for many lines, and follows with my entire digest. --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 15:58:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23519 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA23468 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) with SMTP; 4 Feb 1997 22:46:27 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id RAA13230; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:47:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199702042247.RAA13230@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: Password????? To: denic@liii.com (Dennis N. Aruta) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:47:11 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Dennis N. Aruta" at Feb 4, 97 05:19:48 pm X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Arisia X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Dennis N. Aruta: > > Why on earth are you sending this to > > list-managers@greatcircle.com? This is a problem for > > AOL user support, and has nothing to do with mailing lists. > I am quite sure that Security is of interest to list managers. Let me assure you that internal, AOL-customer-specific security concerns are of no interest _whatsoever_ to listmanagers. > I have 50 AOL members that subscribe to My mailing list below. Then send your warnings to _them_, or to security@aol.com, not to people who have no interest and furthermore no ability to help you with this problem. > Please delete if of no interest. No, "Please do not send if not even slightly relevant." -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 16:00:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23020 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA23012 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8398 invoked by uid 666); 4 Feb 1997 22:50:07 -0000 Date: 4 Feb 1997 22:50:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19970204225006.8397.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A configuration error that lasts 20 days is more than just a configuration > error problem. Probably. And the address is kicked off the list after that time. It's quite common, however, for someone to make a configuration error on Thursday that doesn't get fixed until Monday. If you send a warning message on Saturday or Sunday, it'll bounce too. Not helpful. > But I thought you were only saving the first bounce, so you must be saving the > missing messages somewhere else, and that has got to take up SOME disk space. Of course---they're in the archive. Recording the _numbers_ missed by a particular user is no big deal. > > Bouncing messages because of a _temporarily_ exceeded quota is a bug. > Um, define temporary here. 5 minutes? 30 minutes? 20 days? Anything under the local timeout. 65 hours is about the minimum possible timeout before users start screaming; 120 hours is more common. > OK, so if I'm keeping a copy at my main account, what do I need the list > of missing messages for? You don't. There were three situations, see, numbered 1 and 2 and 3. They were _different_ situations, illustrating _different_ features. Situation #1 showed why the probe was useful. Situation #2 showed why the warning was useful. Situation #3 showed why the warning/probe separation was useful. > Can't you be informative or instructive without insulting me, too? Can't you avoid spouting nonsense about things you don't understand? You were faced with something surprising, something beyond your experience---namely, that VERPs handle every bounce message reliably. You had no clue what VERPs were. You should have expressed your surprise and asked how VERPs worked, But you didn't. Instead, you baldly claimed that the surprising fact wasn't true. You claimed that VERPs depend on support from other MTAs. Don't blame me for your mistake. ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 16:05:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA28271 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pine.liii.com (pine.liii.com [198.207.193.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA28228 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rowan.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA06589; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:17:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (denic@localhost) by rowan.liii.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA03401; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:17:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rowan.liii.com: denic owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:17:30 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis N. Aruta" To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Password????? In-Reply-To: <199702042244.OAA29367@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk http://www.liii.com/~denic On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > Abuse@aol.com or some other internal address would probably work better. > > > Subject: What is this CRAP? > > K9LXW: Hello valued America Online customer! Despite the warning at the > > bottom of this message (which our programmers are working hard to disable for > > AOL Employees) we have lost your record containing your password. Until it is > > entered back into the computer, you will not be able to log-on again, you > > will recieve and INVALID PASSWORD error. If you could assist us with this > > problem. Just click 'RESPOND' and enter your password. Thank you! > > --AOL Customer Service > > I just received this message..... > > Dennis N. Aruta > > Well, it's OBVIOUS what the crap is. Someone trying to pass themselves > off as AOL Customer Service to steal your password. Poke around the > AOL user help screens and you'll find the right place to report this. > > But why list-managers? Assume Kynn you have no AOL subs to your list?? Thanks for the suggestions. I have about 50 AOL subs....to IC-L. If not of interest, please ignore. Dennis > > --Kynn > From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 16:06:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA02326 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu ([128.52.46.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA02318 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id SAA16971; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:54:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 18:54:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199702042354.SAA16971@ethanol.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) To: tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sent-Via-Bcc-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: Internet Economics Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sent this via Bcc: to list-managers@GreatCircle.COM because it's as off-topic as many of the other recent messages. I've seen some very under-informed statements about the Economics of the Internet on this list. There are some significant technical and public policy issues about how the Internet should grow. People on this list could make a difference - if they are informed. E.g. To bring high-speed internet connections into most American homes will cost over a $ 100 billion - do we want the TelCos to do this? Or Cable? Or Satellite? E.g. do we want to guarantee Universal Access to the Internet at low cost for all Americans, as we do now for Telephones? I recommend Hal Varian's WWW pages for those who would like to get educated on these issues by getting solid facts. Varian is an Economist who among other things studies the Internet. http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/~hal Economic FAQs About the Internet. Jeffrey K. MacKie-Mason and Hal R. Varian. June 1995. Abstract: This is a set of Frequently Asked Questions (and... http://gopher.econ.lsa.umich.edu/FAQs/FAQsALL.html best -len From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 17:08:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id QAA05920 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA05847 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8978 invoked by uid 666); 5 Feb 1997 00:29:06 -0000 Date: 5 Feb 1997 00:29:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19970205002906.8977.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If I tried this on MACWAY, with 51,000 users and the associated > turnover, my system would crawl to a halt just handling errors. Profile. Don't speculate. How many addresses have ever been added to that mailing list? How many addresses had to be forcibly removed because they went bad? How many deliveries would you have made to the bad addresses if each one had stayed on the mailing list for a month after going bad? How many deliveries have you made, total, to that mailing list? > Trust me... No. That would be tantamount to speculation. I want to see statistics. ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 17:12:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id QAA06436 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA06331 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:27:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kynn@localhost) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00361; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:22:47 -0800 From: Kynn Bartlett Message-Id: <199702050022.QAA00361@ayla.idyllmtn.com> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: djb@koobera.math.uic.edu (D. J. Bernstein) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:22:44 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19970204225006.8397.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> from "D. J. Bernstein" at Feb 4, 97 10:50:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dan the qmail man wrote: > > Can't you be informative or instructive without insulting me, too? > Can't you avoid spouting nonsense about things you don't understand? > You were faced with something surprising, something beyond your > experience---namely, that VERPs handle every bounce message reliably. > You had no clue what VERPs were. > You should have expressed your surprise and asked how VERPs worked, > But you didn't. Instead, you baldly claimed that the surprising fact > wasn't true. You claimed that VERPs depend on support from other MTAs. > Don't blame me for your mistake. Man, the arrogance tossed around here is really convincing me that I don't want to get anywhere _near_ this qmail product, no matter how wonder it might be. Maybe you need a better approach to promoting your product than acting superior and insulting people. --Kynn From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 21:03:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA03532 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA03525 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IF1BXAQ4LC9AN3K6@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:58 EDT Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:58 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: whowhere.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <01IF1BXAQ4LC9AN3K6@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If these are the same bastards/idiots seem to remember, they tried grabbing some Stanford /etc/password files a bit back to build their database further. Rich Graves got quite irritated at them. If I'm remembering right, they are indeed spammers. -Allen From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 21:18:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04543 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA04524 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-234.his.com [205.252.121.234]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA16350; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:11:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:25:40 -0500 To: gess@earthchannel.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:28 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Gess Shankar wrote: > Received: by earthchannel.com (Aurora/32 Professional >3.0 (NT-10000008)) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:01:32 -0500 (EST) >Message-ID: <970202145627_XXX@emout04.mail.aol.com> If that's the real message-id:, it's a fake. If you've deleted the portion that would tell me precisely which message this was (from my logs), then I believe it -- there are plenty of clueless users out ther. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 21:21:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04647 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:14:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA04639 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-234.his.com [205.252.121.234]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA16407; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:11:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702032117.QAA28368@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:46:14 -0500 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:19 AM -0500 2/3/1997, Dr. Manion wrote: >Two possible ways to verify users is by their Credit Card Numbers and >their Phone Numbers. People, may have several credit cards, but few >will go out and change their phone number every two or three weeks, >just to have access to AOL. Not a bad idea. However, I do see some problems (not necessarily insurmountable): 1. You'd have to have a complete directory of all phone numbers in the world (we are an International company, after all), online and up-to-date. 2. When someone signs on, you'd have to cross-reference this phone number with the name/address/whatever associated with the credit card (as opposed to just handing that number to someone like EquiFax, TRW, whomever and ask "Is this a valid number?" and get back a yes/no answer). 3. You'd have to have some solution in place, immediately on-hand for those people who legitimately have different information -- either they've just moved and the online list of phone numbers you have is not up to date, or their credit card information hasn't had time to be updated, whatever. That is, unless I misunderstood something about your proposal. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 21:24:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04589 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA04553 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-234.his.com [205.252.121.234]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA16397; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:11:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702031722.MAA17342@zax.leftbank.com> References: from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 01:28:06 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:38:23 -0500 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: nmehl@leftbank.com, meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:22 PM -0500 2/3/1997, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >> We verify credit cards interactively. You cannot use a fake >> credit card number to get an AOL account. I'm not sure what else you >> might mean by "unverified accounts", though. > >Sorry, "unverified" was probably the wrong word to use in that context. > >I am under the impression that it is still possible during the "ten free >hours" that come with the standard ubiquitous AOL trial diskette to >send email and post to Usenet -- before handing over a credit card >number of any sort. If you want to try out for fifty free hours, you have to provide a credit-card number to sign on, period. Whether during your free period or not, you simply don't get on unless you've got a credit card. After you've been on the system for a while, we'll let you change your billing to direct from your checking account, but initially, it's credit card only. Of course, this means that during your fifty free hours (which probably actually meant something back when people paid by the minute ;-), yes, you can still send email and post to Usenet news, and harass other people. The fact that AOL has a credit card number for you (that EquiFax, TRW, and those other credit-clearinghouses consider valid) doesn't mean much to those people you harass. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 21:33:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA04564 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA04545 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:12:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-234.his.com [205.252.121.234]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA16354; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:11:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:33:44 -0500 To: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large mass Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:46 AM -0500 2/3/1997, David B. Smith wrote: >AOL could essentially do what I've done here. Create an AOL conference >-- or whatever they call them there -- for each list that has a >"significant" number of AOL subscribers. The interface becomes >consistent for all the users, as well as being manageable by AOL staff. This idea has been discussed -- gateway virtually every mailing list in the world (at least, all those on PAML) to Usenet newsgroups, and then allow AOL users to read at their leisure (and catch up, or fall behind, as they choose). However, I think most people who've been on this list for a while will remember the extreme vitriol that was levelled at AltaVista when they tried this kind of thing, and not much less was levelled at InReference (at least they set the default of "if you do nothing, we will not subscribe and archive your list", while AltaVista set the opposite default). I don't think AOL would fare any better, but perhaps you folks could prove me wrong. >No subscribing or unsubscribing by users is necessary at all -- AOL >subscribes, and provides access in that fashion. The mailbox >limitations become meaningless -- individuals don't have to keep the >message flow in their personal mailboxes anymore. No more bounces to >the list -- AOL absorbs the incoming traffic seamlessly. (I assume.) The issue of posting becomes a problem, however. If a list only allows subscribed users to post, how do the hundreds (or thousands) of AOL users who are "subscribed" to the list via Usenet news post to it? Unfortunately, they don't (which makes the idea virtually useless to most of them). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:03:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA09023 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id VAA09016 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29377 invoked by uid 305); 5 Feb 1997 05:51:17 -0000 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 2, 97 09:38:58 pm From: Paul Graham Date: 05 Feb 1997 00:51:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:06:57 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.10/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i'm not positive what you had to program but it sounds like you could use an mta that supports in-bound wildcards. then you could set the bounce address, from line and reply-to line to a user specific address and process them with a single (or worst case one per list) return address and a few lines of your favorite scripting language. if you had a clever mlm (say listserv) you could teach it to schedule an in-band probe (qlist, the predecessor of ezmlm, does this with every message) every N days or after K bounces. >>>>> "Chuq" == Chuq Von Rospach writes: Chuq> I didn't have list information in there because of the sheer Chuq> number of lists and the complexity of trying to build a unique Chuq> set of addresses for the site and tying list names to them. More Chuq> programming hassle than I wanted to do this round. -- paul pjg(at)acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:18:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA09895 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA09840 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id WAA06393; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:09:43 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199702031722.MAA17342@zax.leftbank.com> from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 01:28:06 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:59:20 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , "Nathan J. Mehl" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: nmehl@leftbank.com, meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:38 PM -0800 2/4/97, Brad Knowles wrote: >The fact that AOL has a credit card number for >you (that EquiFax, TRW, and those other credit-clearinghouses >consider valid) doesn't mean much to those people you harass. Yeah. There's the rub. Is there some way users in their first period of using a screen name can be considered probationary with a reduction in accessible services? Allow them to only send certain numbers of email a day, say? I don't think it's unreasonable that when an account is created or a screen name added that it be handled more carefully until it's shown not to be a spammer or a space case. It could even be marketed in terms of "hand holding while you get your feet on the ground" and made to look like a positive to the new users... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:23:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA09881 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id WAA09829 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id WAA06395; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:09:46 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:06:28 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large mass Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:33 PM -0800 2/4/97, Brad Knowles wrote: > I don't think AOL would fare any better, but perhaps you folks >could prove me wrong. If I were asked to allow a gateway, I'd certainly consider it. If someone just goes and does it under my nose, I might be a little more irritated. (actually, I know that a number of addresses on MACWAY and other of my lists are exploders. How many, I don't know. To be honest, if someone asks me to add an exploder or a re-mailer to the list, I say no. If they don't know enough how to do it for themselves, chances are that remailer will be nothing but problems for me, in my experience... So there's a little triage there... grin) > The issue of posting becomes a problem, however. If a list only >allows subscribed users to post, how do the hundreds (or thousands) >of AOL users who are "subscribed" to the list via Usenet news post to >it? Unfortunately, they don't (which makes the idea virtually >useless to most of them). Yeah. Here's the rub. If I'm asked to allow a *bi-directional* gateway from AOL, I say no, because I no longer have the ability to nuke off bad users from AOL without shutting down the entire gateway or having to go to the aol postmasters to help, and frankly, they're probably tired of hearing from me already. And I won't allow non-subscribers to post, and I have no way of knowing if they're subscribed on a gateway or re-mailer. Now, in reality, 90% of most mailing lists are lurkers, so a single directional gateway can do a lot to reduce loads and the like. But the hassle and complexity it adds, not to mention confusion to that one user who almost always reads but wants to post on a special topic, makes the human interface aspects of this a horror show on all sides. I think it could be done, but I don't think it'd be easy. (one way would be to have a special inbound mail address from AOL, where I could put a procmail blocker to shut up anyone who's abused the gateway, and refuse mail from any place other than a known, approved gateway. But I still have heebee-jeebees about this....) In the right circumstances, though, figuring this out would be more than worth it, especially for a list like MACWAY, where I've got 3,600 subscribers on AOL. Even batching stuff together, that's a chunk of bandwidth we can clean up, if there's a way to clean it up right. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:34:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11072 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA11064 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15170 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:29:10 -0600 (CST) From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199702050629.AAA15170@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 00:29:09 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome writes: > At 8:38 PM -0800 2/4/97, Brad Knowles wrote: > >The fact that AOL has a credit card number for > >you (that EquiFax, TRW, and those other credit-clearinghouses > >consider valid) doesn't mean much to those people you harass. > > Yeah. There's the rub. Is there some way users in their first period of > using a screen name can be considered probationary with a reduction in > accessible services? Allow them to only send certain numbers of email a > day, say? I don't think it's unreasonable that when an account is > created or a screen name added that it be handled more carefully until > it's shown not to be a spammer or a space case. It could even be > marketed in terms of "hand holding while you get your feet on the > ground" and made to look like a positive to the new users... (grin) > This seems to be a valid model other businesses have adopted. Blockbuster Video will only rent 3 tapes at a time for the first 20 rentals. Many merchants will not accept "starter checks." If you do not have an established record with most untilities they will want a special deposit, etc. -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:50:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11631 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA11613 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-238.his.com [205.252.121.238]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA23023; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:33:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:28:03 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large mass Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:06 AM -0500 2/5/1997, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >In the right circumstances, though, figuring this out would be more >than worth it, especially for a list like MACWAY, where I've got 3,600 >subscribers on AOL. Even batching stuff together, that's a chunk of >bandwidth we can clean up, if there's a way to clean it up right. Then I'll forward a copy of your note to work, and we'll see if we can get anywhere. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 22:53:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA11664 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA11646 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.234] (shiva1-mclean-238.his.com [205.252.121.238]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA23078; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:34:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199702031722.MAA17342@zax.leftbank.com> from "Brad Knowles" at Feb 2, 97 01:28:06 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 01:32:47 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , "Nathan J. Mehl" From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: nmehl@leftbank.com, meo@schoneal.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, knowlesb@aol.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:59 AM -0500 2/5/1997, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >At 8:38 PM -0800 2/4/97, Brad Knowles wrote: >>The fact that AOL has a credit card number for >>you (that EquiFax, TRW, and those other credit-clearinghouses >>consider valid) doesn't mean much to those people you harass. > >Yeah. There's the rub. Is there some way users in their first period of >using a screen name can be considered probationary with a reduction in >accessible services? Well, we used to have an email-to-fax gateway, and we required that you have been an AOL user for at least three months before we let you use that system (since it cost us real money, which we then billed the user). Who knows, maybe we could implement some sort of similar system of restricting the ability to send Internet email (except to specific addresses, at least until you learn enough about the system so that you can turn this "feature" off). -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 4 23:18:49 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id XAA13835 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id XAA13808 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id XAA07431; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:04:16 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 23:02:05 -0800 To: Brad Knowles , Chuq Von Rospach , CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:00 AM -0800 2/2/97, Brad Knowles wrote: > But, taking my AOL hat off now, how would you educate a large >user community like this? I mean, the average Usenet poster seems >quite clueless enough (give most of the posts I've read and personal >email messages I get from people asking me to solve their problem for >them), and quite incapable of reading the amazingly complete and >accurate array of information that can be found in the FAQ archives. >I mean, you can lead a user to the FAQ Archives, but you can't make >them drink from the Font of Knowledge or the Well of Wisdom. > > How, then, do we educate a community of users that is even more >clueless than this average? > > Does anyone have any ideas? Okay, I've sat on this a few days (I know, I know, that's against the Internet way of immediate response followed by endless followups as you think it through.... grin), and I have a few thoughts. Some of this is in generalities, to bring up the ideas so that people can flesh them out (or alternatively, grind the bones into flour....) First, let me set what I consider the key issues are: 1) help the user learn to use the tools and find the information they're looking for. 2) don't make it so easy that the user gets in over their head and drowns. Users should not start theri swimming career with the english channel, yet too often, we don't post the right signs on the beach. 3) when a user DOES get in over their head, give them some tools to help them get saved (or even better, save themselves). Some thoughts on how I'd design this, just as a jumping off point. First, the place where users go to find mailing lists on AOL should not take them directly to the lists. Instead, it should take them to a table of contents page that has documentation and other reference points and help, and a second step take them to the directory: 1) BEFORE YOU SIGN UP FOR MAILING LISTS -- BASIC FACTS YOU NEED TO KNOW 2) USE AND ABUSE OF MAIL LISTS 3) PROPER MAILING LIST MANNERS 4) TOO MUCH MAIL? CAN'T GET OFF A LIST? WHAT TO DO (AND NOT DO) 5) CONTACT THE AOL MAIL LIST OMBUDSMAN. 6) SEARCH THE MAIL LIST DIRECTORY. Now, we won't make them read this. In fact, that's not my intent. What *is* my intent is that when they come to this page and skip on by, enough will sink in that they'll come back to the page when they DO have problems. Some will actually read some of the material before they skip through to the directory page (this implies that you can *not* go to the directory directly, or people will... A case of making things *too easy* and thereby causing, not solving, problems). Second, make sure the directory entries have really good unsubscribe instructions -- higher profile than subscribe and hopefully easier to find. Make sure the basic facts include how to find out what lists your how, common contact points for list admins (postmaster@, info@, etc...), strategies for handling e-mail load and warnings about busy lists, that sort of stuff. Third, point five above: the mail list ombudsman. This may, in fact, simply be the AOL postmasters, but make it very visible and prominent that there is someone on AOL staff who, if a user is having problems with a list, that they can go to who'll step in and help. It's pretty clear from what I've seen that many of these folks don't know who to turn to -- so give them someone. That person can give them advice, steer them to instructions, walk them through things, and if necessary, step in the middle and contact list admins for the user and help get things done. handholding and babysitting, but mostly, it's a sympathetic ear and some choice pieces of advice for people who are simply lost and don't know what steps to take. In fact, I'll bet that the AOL postmasters already do this to some degree or another. It's just that the users don't know they do, or how to contact them. I've talked to a number of users who just sit deleting mail, because until my address probe popped up, they didn't know what to do. ("I've been trying to get off this list for, and nothing's worked" -- well, did you write postmaster? Did you get the instructions? Did you.... -- "Um... who?"). Make this function as visible as possible, so they know they can go if they get overwhelmed or in trouble. That's what I've come up with -- punch up the documenation and put it in their faces. They may not read it, but they should, at least, recognize it's there so that if something starts going wrong, they can at least browse it. Don't give them a path around the documentation, so they're forced to at least subconsciously register it's existance. And give them a human outlet to go to if they get in trouble, and make that outlet as visible and high-profile as you can. I think that goes a long way towards dealing with the issues, at least as a first cut. From what I've seen, users have gone to a directory, found out just enough to subscribe, and when it wasn't what they were expecting, didn't know what to do. Eventually they give up, or they lash out, or they start screaming. Raising the profile of the documentation helps on one level by giving them better access to the tools if they want to dig themselves out, and giving them a panic button, so to speak, will deal with the other side of those who can't dig themselves out of the hole and need someone to help. thoughts? chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 05:49:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id FAA02271 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id FAA02263 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:43:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from crl7.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA17068 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:41:19 -0800 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 05:41:18 -0800 (PST) From: Subir Grewal To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, Brad Knowles wrote: : If you want to try out for fifty free hours, you have to provide :a credit-card number to sign on, period. Whether during your free :period or not, you simply don't get on unless you've got a credit :card. After you've been on the system for a while, we'll let you :change your billing to direct from your checking account, but :initially, it's credit card only. AOL doesn't have any credit card info on me, I'm not very curious about their service, so I never asked. But I've been getting both CDs (better I think because they aren't writeable) and disks mailed to me. I'm presuming the contact info is coming from the Whois database. I don't know whether those (unsolicited) disks/CDs when used provide you with a fully functional account, but I think so. I know other people who've been getting them as well. What might be workable, is AOL experimenting with a little gateway that handles list unsubscription/subscription for its users. A little jiggling around with the mailer (or simply an extension/plug-in to it), some idea of what list-software is used to manage the list, and voila unsubscribe at the click of a button (or two, just to confirm). Yes, we may not be educating AOL users about how the Net "really works", but then comfortable front-ends are valuable to many people, often those who don't have an intrinsic curiousity towards these things and just want the job done. I have nothing against a comfy front-end, especially when this is what AOL seems to be marketing, for most lists I don't think the ability to understand, manipulate and use list software should be a barrier to entering discussion. This raises many issues of course, including some that relate to list-manager's interaction with AOL. Some of the problems may cripple the idea, but I think it may be worth a try. Or has this all been done before? hostmaster@trill-home.com + Lynx 2.6 + PGP + http://www.crl.com/~subir/ "These are DARK TIMES for all mankind's HIGHEST VALUES!" "These are DARK TIMES for FREEDOM and PROSPERITY!" "These are GREAT TIMES to put your money on BAD GUY to kick the CRAP out of MEGATON MAN!" From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 06:49:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id GAA04331 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.devinci.fr (ns.devinci.fr [193.107.166.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA04317 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:34:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from austerlitz.fr. (austerlitz.devinci.fr [193.107.160.187]) by ns.devinci.fr (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA27428 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:29:46 +0100 Received: by austerlitz.fr. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA21311; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:46:51 GMT Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:46:51 GMT From: ludman@austerlitz.devinci.fr (Irene Ludman) Message-Id: <199702051346.NAA21311@austerlitz.fr.> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS : IWCS'97 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk CALL FOR PAPERS 1st INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON COMPUTATIONAL SEMIOTICS 26th - 27th May, 1997 Pôle Universitaire Léonard de Vinci PARIS - LA DEFENSE - FRANCE TOPICS SEMIOTICS OF TEXT : Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, University of Montreal Computers are increasingly used to assist text analysis for cognitive, literary, anthropological, sociological, documentary, etc. research. The workshop will focus on actual realisations, on the possibilities and limits of methodologies and existing tools to take into account the complex and multidimensional nature of texts, allowing multiple points of views for a variety of user needs. Issues such as desirable features of text analysis software, robustness and conviviality of implantations, interaction between corpora and users, constraints that actual tools put upon kinds of analyses and coding choices, the ability to elaborate models of electronic analytical tools suited to different semiotic theories, semiotical foundations of markup languages are examples of possible debates. SEMIOMETHODOLOGY : Claude Vogel, Léonard de Vinci University Several genres are currently under investigation for semiotic studies : electronic mail, news, corporate information, Web publishing. The flood of full text is overflowing semantic analysis, and this major paradigm break leads us to reconsider our approach of text processing. The size of these new corpora, the lack of consistency of information, the physical scattering of the basic units of texts, make the classical documentary solutions very uncomfortable. Instead, the semiotic based analysis seems to be a highly compelling perspective. It is focused on chronology; it provides a way to build transitive narratives throughout large amounts of data, and it does not require the understanding of the details of each local grammatical sentence in order for a global plot to be elaborated. This promising trend may give a second wind to ethnomethodology. For this reason, it is more appropriate to use the term "semiomethodology" when evoking this attempt to rationalize the computational approach of the symbolic dynamics which underlie collaborative production. ORGANIZATIONAL SEMIOTICS : Kathleen Carley, Carnegie Mellon University Organizational semiotics is the semiotics of organizations and organizational dimensions of textual semiotics. The objective of this workshop is to define the boundaries of this new specialty. Specifically, we will address the issue of : "How can semiotic analysis of interpersonal and corporate exchanges be used to reveal, evaluate, and contrast the underlying organizational logics and changes in these logics over time ?" Recent advances in textual analysis are facilitating this endeavor and creating new opportunities for understanding organizational behavior. Critical issues in the area of organizational semiotics include : 1) how to quickly and reliably analyze large quantities of texts, 2) how to reduce textual data to an empirical form that can be combined with other types of data and analyzed statistically, 3) how to identify corporate texts (those representing the "view" of the organization as an entity) and address issues of authorship, and 4) how to identify institutional constraints on the production and maintenance of corporate texts. New and innovative computational methods for empirically analyzing texts are being developed to address these and related concerns. These techniques have the potential to move textual analysis beyond counting words or locating a few themes or concepts. This section will focus on the issues involved in performing organizational semiotics with particular attention to the new computationally based techniques for facilitating organizational analysis that increase the ease, speed or reliability of coding texts and generate information that can be analyzed statistically. BIOSEMIOTICS : Jean-Claude Heudin, Léonard de Vinci University Recently, algorithms and architectures based on models derived from biological systems have been receiving an increasing amount of interest. This section will explore how such new approaches and techniques could be used for managing large amount of information exchanges on Internet or Intranet. Topics of particular interest include, but are not limited to, applications of agent-based systems, autonomous and evolving agents, genetic algorithms and programming, neural networks, cellular automata etc. to text stream analysis and in the more general framework of semiotics analysis. SUBMISSION OF PAPERS Send four copies of an abstract (approximately 500 words) in english or email it to : Irène Ludman - IWCS'97 Pôle Universitaire Léonard de Vinci 92916 PARIS-LA DEFENSE-CEDEX, FRANCE Phone: (33) 01 41 16 73 05 Fax : (33) 01 41 16 73 35 Email : irene.ludmann@devinci.fr DEADLINES Submission of abstracts by 1st April 1997 Acceptance notification to authors by 15th April 1997 Submission of full papers by 12th May 1997 ORGANIZING COMMITTEE Claude Vogel (chairman) Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy Kathleen Carley Jean-Claude Heudin PROGRAM COMMITTE Pierre Boudon (canada) Guillaume Deffuant (France) Evelyne Lutton (France) Joe Porac (USA) Carl Roberts (USA) J. Sebeok (Canada) Peter Stockinger (France) Bill Turner (France) For more information please visit the following Web page : http://www.devinci.fr/home/actua.htm From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 06:53:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id GAA04333 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.devinci.fr (ns.devinci.fr [193.107.166.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id GAA04319 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from austerlitz.fr. (austerlitz.devinci.fr [193.107.160.187]) by ns.devinci.fr (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA17452 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:29:47 +0100 Received: by austerlitz.fr. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA21308; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:46:49 GMT Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:46:49 GMT From: ludman@austerlitz.devinci.fr (Irene Ludman) Message-Id: <199702051346.NAA21308@austerlitz.fr.> To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS : IWCS'97 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk CALL FOR PAPERS 1st INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON COMPUTATIONAL SEMIOTICS 26th - 27th May, 1997 Pôle Universitaire Léonard de Vinci PARIS - LA DEFENSE - FRANCE TOPICS SEMIOTICS OF TEXT : Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy, University of Montreal Computers are increasingly used to assist text analysis for cognitive, literary, anthropological, sociological, documentary, etc. research. The workshop will focus on actual realisations, on the possibilities and limits of methodologies and existing tools to take into account the complex and multidimensional nature of texts, allowing multiple points of views for a variety of user needs. Issues such as desirable features of text analysis software, robustness and conviviality of implantations, interaction between corpora and users, constraints that actual tools put upon kinds of analyses and coding choices, the ability to elaborate models of electronic analytical tools suited to different semiotic theories, semiotical foundations of markup languages are examples of possible debates. SEMIOMETHODOLOGY : Claude Vogel, Léonard de Vinci University Several genres are currently under investigation for semiotic studies : electronic mail, news, corporate information, Web publishing. The flood of full text is overflowing semantic analysis, and this major paradigm break leads us to reconsider our approach of text processing. The size of these new corpora, the lack of consistency of information, the physical scattering of the basic units of texts, make the classical documentary solutions very uncomfortable. Instead, the semiotic based analysis seems to be a highly compelling perspective. It is focused on chronology; it provides a way to build transitive narratives throughout large amounts of data, and it does not require the understanding of the details of each local grammatical sentence in order for a global plot to be elaborated. This promising trend may give a second wind to ethnomethodology. For this reason, it is more appropriate to use the term "semiomethodology" when evoking this attempt to rationalize the computational approach of the symbolic dynamics which underlie collaborative production. ORGANIZATIONAL SEMIOTICS : Kathleen Carley, Carnegie Mellon University Organizational semiotics is the semiotics of organizations and organizational dimensions of textual semiotics. The objective of this workshop is to define the boundaries of this new specialty. Specifically, we will address the issue of : "How can semiotic analysis of interpersonal and corporate exchanges be used to reveal, evaluate, and contrast the underlying organizational logics and changes in these logics over time ?" Recent advances in textual analysis are facilitating this endeavor and creating new opportunities for understanding organizational behavior. Critical issues in the area of organizational semiotics include : 1) how to quickly and reliably analyze large quantities of texts, 2) how to reduce textual data to an empirical form that can be combined with other types of data and analyzed statistically, 3) how to identify corporate texts (those representing the "view" of the organization as an entity) and address issues of authorship, and 4) how to identify institutional constraints on the production and maintenance of corporate texts. New and innovative computational methods for empirically analyzing texts are being developed to address these and related concerns. These techniques have the potential to move textual analysis beyond counting words or locating a few themes or concepts. This section will focus on the issues involved in performing organizational semiotics with particular attention to the new computationally based techniques for facilitating organizational analysis that increase the ease, speed or reliability of coding texts and generate information that can be analyzed statistically. BIOSEMIOTICS : Jean-Claude Heudin, Léonard de Vinci University Recently, algorithms and architectures based on models derived from biological systems have been receiving an increasing amount of interest. This section will explore how such new approaches and techniques could be used for managing large amount of information exchanges on Internet or Intranet. Topics of particular interest include, but are not limited to, applications of agent-based systems, autonomous and evolving agents, genetic algorithms and programming, neural networks, cellular automata etc. to text stream analysis and in the more general framework of semiotics analysis. SUBMISSION OF PAPERS Send four copies of an abstract (approximately 500 words) in english or email it to : Irène Ludman - IWCS'97 Pôle Universitaire Léonard de Vinci 92916 PARIS-LA DEFENSE-CEDEX, FRANCE Phone: (33) 01 41 16 73 05 Fax : (33) 01 41 16 73 35 Email : irene.ludmann@devinci.fr DEADLINES Submission of abstracts by 1st April 1997 Acceptance notification to authors by 15th April 1997 Submission of full papers by 12th May 1997 ORGANIZING COMMITTEE Claude Vogel (chairman) Suzanne Bertrand-Gastaldy Kathleen Carley Jean-Claude Heudin PROGRAM COMMITTE Pierre Boudon (canada) Guillaume Deffuant (France) Evelyne Lutton (France) Joe Porac (USA) Carl Roberts (USA) J. Sebeok (Canada) Peter Stockinger (France) Bill Turner (France) For more information please visit the following Web page : http://www.devinci.fr/home/actua.htm From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 07:04:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA05580 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA05544 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.76]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:01:43 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:01:41 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:01:41 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199702051501.13798.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:06:28 -0800) Subject: Re: Educating large mass Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Chuq von Rospach] | Yeah. Here's the rub. If I'm asked to allow a *bi-directional* | gateway from AOL, I say no, because I no longer have the ability | to nuke off bad users from AOL without shutting down the entire | gateway or having to go to the aol postmasters to help, and | frankly, they're probably tired of hearing from me already. And I | won't allow non-subscribers to post, and I have no way of knowing | if they're subscribed on a gateway or re-mailer. I agree about bi-directional gateways, at least if they rewrite headers. The other approach works fine for me, though: Messages from unknown addresses are bounced to the list manager. If the contents look good, the address is added to the approved list, and resent. This will incur a delay of a day or two. Thereafter, that person can post to the list unrestricted. If s/he misbehaves later, it's easy to remove that address from the approved list. It would be no problem to add mechanisms so a user can request to be added to the approved list prior to engaging in discussion. (If there ever is a RFC for list management commands, this should probably be in.) Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 07:34:36 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA06616 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA06603 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:23:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id HAA14911; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:23:33 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970205002906.8977.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 07:21:33 -0800 To: "D. J. Bernstein" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:29 PM -0800 2/4/97, D. J. Bernstein wrote: >> If I tried this on MACWAY, with 51,000 users and the associated >> turnover, my system would crawl to a halt just handling errors. > >Profile. Don't speculate. Um, I have. >How many addresses have ever been added to that mailing list? It averages about 250 subscriptions a day, and 100-150 unsubscriptions. >How many addresses had to be forcibly removed because they went bad? I'm averaging about 40-75 dead addresses on each update, and I update from the error logs 2-3 times a week. Those unsubs are included above. >How many deliveries would you have made to the bad addresses if each one >had stayed on the mailing list for a month after going bad? Lessee. 90% of the users are digests, we ship ~20 messages a day, and about 10 digests a week. I do know that if I don't update the lists, within a week, it's generating ~15-20 megabytes a day in error returns at the minimum. >> Trust me... > >No. That would be tantamount to speculation. I want to see statistics. Nice start? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 08:49:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA12762 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from asylum.apocalypse.org (asylum.sf.ca.us [192.48.232.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA12735 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jailbait@localhost) by asylum.apocalypse.org (8.8.5/8.6.12) id LAA13137; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:39:31 -0500 From: Jailbait Message-Id: <199702051639.LAA13137@asylum.apocalypse.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Cc: brad@his.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Quoth Brad: > Who knows, maybe we could implement some sort of similar system >of restricting the ability to send Internet email (except to specific >addresses, at least until you learn enough about the system so that >you can turn this "feature" off). Minor problem. The abusers spend a couple of hours figuring it out once and then can get a new throw-away, turn it off in seconds, and spam away. I think that time-in-service based only is much more likely to be useful. JB From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 08:53:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA11939 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:33:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sys2.bloodstockwww.com (sys2.bloodstockwww.com [206.24.34.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA11891 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 08:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (from servant@localhost) by sys2.bloodstockwww.com (8.8.3/8.7.1) id LAA05695; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:28:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:28:22 -0500 (EST) From: Web Servant To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: What mail software? In-Reply-To: <199702050719.XAA14668@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We are getting ready to set up an email server to handle our mailing lists. It will be running FreeBSD. My question is: which mail software should we use? I have heard/read sendmail is not quite as efficient on large queues as it could be? Is there something better? We will be using majordomo still for the list management. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Patrick S. Gardella Webservant - Christian Word Ministries | | http://www.ChristianWord.org | | | |Work: Servant@ChristianWord.org | |Home: PGardella@aol.com PGP Key ID 0x570CBD5D | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 09:27:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id JAA15304 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [128.248.178.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id JAA15297 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 22636 invoked by uid 666); 5 Feb 1997 16:57:28 -0000 Date: 5 Feb 1997 16:57:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19970205165728.22634.qmail@koobera.math.uic.edu> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Profile. Don't speculate. > Um, I have. Then I'm sure you'll have no problem answering my questions---and, in particular, explaining how a 14.4k modem running at 40% capacity would make your system ``crawl to a halt.'' > I do know that if I don't update the lists, > within a week, it's generating ~15-20 megabytes a day in error returns > at the minimum. You didn't answer my question about total volume. 5000 normal subscribers at 2K per message and 140 messages/week, plus 45000 digest subscribers at 15K per message and 10 messages/week, would add up to more than 1GB of data per day. What are the actual numbers for your list, Chuq? Apparently you're handling a few megabytes of error messages per day right now. How many messages is that? How much disk I/O? How much CPU time? What would be the _actual_ difference in disk load and CPU load if you received 10 times as many bounces? You claimed ``crawl to a halt.'' Do you have numbers to back this up? ---Dan Put an end to unauthorized mail relaying. http://pobox.com/~djb/qmail.html From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 11:04:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id KAA25942 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom22.netcom.com (netcom22.netcom.com [192.100.81.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id KAA25882 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:53:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id LAA11305; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:52:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:52:17 -0700 (MST) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom22 To: List Managers List Subject: What, no .sex?! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! + ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > SEVEN NEW TOP LEVEL DOMAIN NAMES ARE ADDED FOR > INTERNET ADDRESSES AND UP TO 28 NEW REGISTRARS PLANNED > > > WASHINGTON, DC, February 4, 1997 -- The number of >names available to specify Internet locations, such as web sites >and email addresses, will increase and more firms will be allowed >to act as registrars for the names, under a plan announced today >by the International Ad Hoc Committee (IAHC). > > Internet users will have 7 new generic Top Level >Domains (gTLDs), in addition to the existing ones (.com, .net, >and .org), under which they may register Internet names, when >the plan is implemented. The new gTLDs and the intended fields >of use are: > > .firm for businesses, or firms > .store for businesses offering goods to purchase > .web for entities emphasizing activities > related to the WWW > .arts for entities emphasizing cultural and > entertainment activities > .rec for entities emphasizing > recreation/entertainment activities > .info for entities providing information > services > .nom for those wishing individual or personal > nomenclature > > In addition, up to 28 new registrars will be >established to grant registrations for second-level domain >names under the new gTLDs. The new registrars will be selected >by lottery from applicants who fulfill specific requirements >established by the IAHC. All the new gTLDs will be shared among >the new registrars, meaning that each registrar may effect registration >of second-level domain names under all the new gTLDs. It is intended >that the three existing gTLDs (.com, .net, and .org) would also be >shared upon conclusion of the cooperative agreement between Network >Solutions, Inc. (NSI) and the United States National Science Foundation >(NSF), which allows NSI to act as the registrar for those gTLDs. > > The plan announced today is a result of efforts by >an international group named to resolve questions critical to the >current and future growth of the Internet. The eleven-member >International Ad Hoc Committee, chaired by Donald M. Heath, >president and CEO of the Internet Society, received input from >individuals, organizations and government agencies from around >the world. > > To guide future registrar developments, an association >comprising all the registrars, the Council of Registrars (CORE), to >be established under Swiss law will create and enforce requirements >for registrar operations. These requirements are spelled out in a >separate legal instrument to which each registrar must agree. > > The IAHC plan includes the establishment of a non- >regulatory policy framework in the form of a Memorandum of >Understanding (MoU) which both the public and private sector will >be invited to sign. The MoU will provide a mechanism for signatories >to advise on future policy evolution of the global Internet domain >name system. > > "I am pleased that the Secretary General of the >International Telecommunication Union (ITU) has agreed in principle >to act as the depository of the MoU and to periodically publish an >updated list of its signatories," Heath said in releasing the IAHC >report. "The structure we have established for the operation and >oversight of domain name administration insures that we will have >stability and continuing input from a broad spectrum of organizations >and individuals." > > Heath pointed out that the IAHC will continue to >function for the period until the new registrars are named and the >MoU has entered into force. At that time, the IAHC will change to >act as the committee to conduct oversight of CORE until a permanent >gTLD DNS Policy Oversight Committee (POC) is established to perform >that function. The POC will determine, in consultation with CORE >and a gTLD DNS Policy Advisory Body (PAB), the evolution of gTLDs, >registrars, and any fees that CORE may collect from its members, >the registrars, for services it may perform. > > The POC and CORE will be advised by the gTLD DNS >Policy Advisory Body (PAB) that will consist of all of the >signatories to the MoU and will provide input and recommendations >for general policy matters relating to gTLDs and the Domain Name >System (DNS). Signatories will include representatives from >governments, independent governmental organizations, non-government >organizations, and industry. > > An earlier draft proposal by the IAHC had recommended >a mandatory 60 day waiting period before activation of new domain >names, in order to alleviate what is considered to be a major >source of instability in the DNS, namely widespread piracy of >famous trademarks by certain domain name holders. In the final >report, that recommendation has been replaced by a more comprehensive >solution that addresses the needs of all classes of stakeholders. In >addition to making the 60 day waiting period optional for registrants, >the final report institutes a system for dispute settlement involving >on-line mediation, mandatory arbitration (if a domain name challenger >chooses to initiate arbitration), and a fast-track on-line >administrative domain name challenge procedure. > > The administrative domain name challenge procedure >would be conducted on-line, and would allow an intellectual >property right holder to petition a panel of international >experts to determine if a second-level domain name violates the >policy that a domain name which contains an internationally known >trademark may only be held by the trademark owner. The dispute >settlement procedures would be administered under the aegis of the >World Intellectual Property Organization Arbitration and Mediation >Center, located in Geneva. > > "During the public comment period, we received over >4000 submissions from the interested public, including 100 >submissions from organizations around the world and we are very >pleased with the acceptance and broad consensus that we have >achieved in this process," Heath stated. "To attain its fullest >potential, the Internet requires true self-governance. The >Internet Society's role is to facilitate that requirement," he >added. > > The IAHC is a coalition of participants from the >broad Internet community, working to satisfy the requirement for >enhancements to the Internet's global Domain Name System (DNS). >Organizations naming members to the committee include: Internet >Society (ISOC), Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), Internet >Architecture Board (IAB), Federal Networking Council (FNC), >International Telecommunication Union (ITU), International >Trademark Association (INTA), and World Intellectual Property >Organization (WIPO). The full text of the IAHC report is being >published at the Internet site: http://www.iahc.org. > > # # # # # # # # # > >Internet Society >12020 Sunrise Valley Drive >Reston, VA 20191-3429 >TEL 703-648-9888 >FAX 703-648-9887 >E-mail info@isoc.org >http://www.isoc.org >http://www.iahc.org From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 12:04:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA02617 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id LAA02568 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 11:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA13529; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02013; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:43:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:43:40 -0500 (EST) From: Lenard T Diggins To: Randy Cassingham Cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: What, no .sex?! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Randy Cassingham wrote: in the subject line: "what, no .sex?! that's exactly what i thouht, and here's a copy of a conversation that i had with a friend: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- [me] > > so, i wonder how long it will be before they add > > ".sex" to the list. [friend] > I think that's just what IAHC (btw, pronounced "eye-hack") is trying > to avoid. [me] interesting. (i would say "stupid" but i didn't follow the discussion.) it seems to me that having a top level of ".sex" would make it real easy to screen for those *hot* sex sites or screen against those nasty, repugnant sex sites. now, if you're a parent and you see "http://random.firm" you're pretty clueless as to where your kid might have been whereas "http://random.sex" would alert you to the fact that it's time to have that birds and bees talk. Len From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 14:05:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA17300 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA17103 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08780 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:45:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA22139 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:45:15 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA17346 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:45:13 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702052145.PAA17346@celery.tssi.com> Subject: quota time limit? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:45:13 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's part of a recent bounce I received from a list subscriber: > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > Quota time limit for user jadee has expired. > 554 ... Service unavailable Anybody want to explain just what a quota time limit is? -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:17:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22513 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA22456 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:23:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA01733 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:22:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702052222.PAA01733@llama.swcp.com> Subject: quota time limit? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:22:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > Quota time limit for user jadee has expired. > > 554 ... Service unavailable > > Anybody want to explain just what a quota time limit is? Nobody's going to be able to say for sure but someone from that system, but maybe they allow users to exceed their soft limit for a period of time and that user's been over quota for longer than the limit. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:34:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA27221 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:20:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id PAA27181 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA25944; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:18:03 -0600 (CST) To: nolan@tssi.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Subject: Re: quota time limit? References: <199702052145.PAA17346@celery.tssi.com> From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 05 Feb 1997 17:18:02 -0600 In-Reply-To: Mike Nolan's message of Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:45:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.11/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "MN" == Mike Nolan writes: MN> Anybody want to explain just what a quota time limit is? I'd guess that the user has been over soft quota for so long that the system is denying new space requests. Nuke the address. (Or better yet, just ask the postmaster at the site, who has much better information on the software they're running that we do.) - J< From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:37:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25262 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:49:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25213 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA25597 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA27676; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA24595; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:54:17 -0500 Message-ID: <19970203225416.WB64889@smoe.org> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:54:16 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) References: <19970203001341.BU34550@smoe.org> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: ; from "James C. Armstrong" on Feb 3, 1997 16:50:22 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk James C. Armstrong writes: > I abjectly refuse to unsubscribe folks who send to the list. The > message sent out includes a comment that if you can't follow instructions, > you can be manually unsubscribed by sending a fee to me. > > To date, no one has sent a fee. Given the choice between learning how > to unsubscribe, and spending money, everyone has chosen to learn how > to unsubscribe. Heh. I like this! -Jeff From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:40:18 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22396 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA22335 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA21951; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA17715; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:21:11 -0500 Message-ID: <19970205172110.SO33429@smoe.org> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:21:10 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: nolan@tssi.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: quota time limit? References: <199702052145.PAA17346@celery.tssi.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199702052145.PAA17346@celery.tssi.com>; from "Mike Nolan" on Feb 5, 1997 15:45:13 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mike Nolan writes: > Here's part of a recent bounce I received from a list subscriber: > > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > Quota time limit for user jadee has expired. > > 554 ... Service unavailable > > Anybody want to explain just what a quota time limit is? Unix quotas are implemented as a soft quota and a hard quota. The hard quota is generally larger than the soft quota. While the user is over the soft limit, he can create files (up to the hard limit). Once a user exceeds the soft quota, he has 1 week before the soft limits are treated as hard limits (and he will be unable to create a file). Jeff From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:43:22 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25170 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25114 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id QAA22450 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:17:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id QAA14013; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:16:51 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970203223752.006c4c14@znyx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:06:29 -0800 To: Alan Deikman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (Fantasy) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:37 PM -0800 2/3/97, Alan Deikman wrote: >Until these suggestions get implemented, perhaps the following might >suffice: > > "Thank you for subscribing to our list. To make your subscription > active, please read the instructions for how to behave on the list > and how to unsubscribe, then write a short essay in your own > words on the procedures and e-mail it to us. Now, put yourself in the mind of those 95% of your users that are NOT causing problems, and ask yourself how you feel.... If someone sent something this demeaning to you, would you sign up to the list? -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:46:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25110 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25075 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from llama.swcp.com (llama.swcp.com [198.59.115.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id OAA08062 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 14:34:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by llama.swcp.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA14123 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:32:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199702032232.PAA14123@llama.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 15:32:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I've wasted a lot of time and resources on AOL subscribers which > is why I was forced to finally ask AOL to take us off their > directory. I am the first to admit that not all of them are like > this. However, a majority of them who subscribe or attempt to > subscribe to our lists, are. They account for 3% of subscription > base, contribute less than 1% and are responsible for 90% of the > problems. > > Now, my figures may differ from yours. I've had a few list owners > tell me they never have any problems with AOL people. But, then > again, their lists are for programmers, software developers, etc... > These people, usually have more savvy than the "normal" AOL > subscriber. Leonard, your rants are getting tedious. I run ten mailing lists. All but one are devoted to various musical artists and genres (lounge music, various techno and synthpop bands). They aren't technical lists by any stretch of the imagination. I run into occasional "problem" users (the "GET ME OFF THIS DAMN LIST" types). In my experience, they don't come from AOL any more frequently than they come from anywhere else. If AOL subscribers are such a chore for you to deal with, deny AOL subscribers access to your lists and get on with your life. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:48:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA29154 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom9.netcom.com (netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA29121 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 15:43:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (arcie@localhost) by netcom9.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id QAA13343; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:42:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:42:21 -0700 (MST) From: Randy Cassingham X-Sender: arcie@netcom9 To: List Managers List Subject: Re: What, no .sex?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Feb 1997, Lenard T Diggins wrote: > in the subject line: "what, no .sex?! > > that's exactly what i thouht, and here's a copy of a > conversation that i had with a friend: > ... > it seems to me that having a top level of ".sex" would make it real > easy to screen for those *hot* sex sites or screen against those > nasty, repugnant sex sites. now, if you're a parent and you see > "http://random.firm" you're pretty clueless as to where your kid > might have been Len, you didn't *really* say that a SEX site would be under the FIRM domain, now did you?! ;-) / Randy Cassingham * Author, "This is True" * arcie@netcom.com \ | For info on What I Do, send a blank e-mail to TrueInfo@freecom.com | \ or check out * I promise you'll like it / + FIGHT SPAM! Send a blank e-mail to nospam@mailback.com for help! + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:49:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25288 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:49:29 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25242 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.ecentral.com (www.ecentral.com [204.227.4.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA14468 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 204.227.4.93 (ppp23.ecentral.com [204.227.4.43]) by www.ecentral.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA26799; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 23:22:21 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <32F6D739.5C5@ecentral.com> Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 23:29:13 -0700 From: Cindy Stanley Reply-To: connect@ecentral.com Organization: Unschooling List X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alan Deikman CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (Fantasy) References: <2.2.32.19970203223752.006c4c14@znyx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman wrote: > Until these suggestions get implemented, perhaps the following might > suffice: > > "Thank you for subscribing to our list. To make your subscription > active, please read the instructions for how to behave on the list > and how to unsubscribe, then write a short essay in your own > words on the procedures and e-mail it to us. If the essay > indicates that you actually understood the instructions, you > will then be subscribed. > > If, for any reason, it turns out later that you need the list > manager's assistance to unsubscribe, you agree to pay $5 for > the service. Please provide your First Virtual PIN for this > purpose." > > Well, it IS a fantasy. (cheering, whistling, foot-stomping) Isn't imagination a *wonderful* thing? :-) ...actually, to be completely truthful here....I HAVE entertained a somewhat similar idea from time to time. I never thought of a $5 charge and PIN # tho. :-) Cindy Unschooling List Mom Aurora, Colorado connect@ecentral.com ~' `, )" o-)O \ \'''"/ \_ ,,} ) woof! '',,,,, , || || We learn from history "--'"--' that we do not learn anything from history. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:53:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25254 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25197 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:48:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp4.netcom.com [163.179.3.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA24149 for ; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA13106; Mon, 3 Feb 1997 17:02:37 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0vrZ5a-000gdOC; Mon, 3 Feb 97 16:50 PST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 16:50:22 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <19970203001341.BU34550@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Feb 3, 97 00:13:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff Wasilko is alleged to have written: -> Merrill Cook writes: -> > On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message -> > to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list -> > owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To -> > unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply -> > to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the -> > message we give. -> I very rarely unsub someone who sends a request to the list -> address. I have a shell script that mails them some help text -> along with the majoromo help file. It starts out like: -> -> You submitted a subscribe or unsubscribe to the regular (posting) -> address of a mailing list. -> -> Please note that you should send your request to -> -request@smoe.org or -digest-reqest@smoe.org -> (i.e. jewel-request@smoe.org, jewel-digest-request@smoe.org, -> basia-request@smoe.org or basia-digest-request@smoe.org). -> -> I have attached the help file for majordomo. I'm a wee bit more hostile. Every week, I send out directions for unsubscribing (with the follow-up set to majordomo@sagarmatha.com). I abjectly refuse to unsubscribe folks who send to the list. The message sent out includes a comment that if you can't follow instructions, you can be manually unsubscribed by sending a fee to me. To date, no one has sent a fee. Given the choice between learning how to unsubscribe, and spending money, everyone has chosen to learn how to unsubscribe. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | PG&E Sucks. james@sagarmatha.com | From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 15:53:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25659 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id OAA25616 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id NAA15526 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway.tssi.com [198.147.197.29]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21748 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:43:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA09073 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:43:10 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA24032 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:43:08 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199702042143.PAA24032@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:43:08 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199702041945.OAA19443@couch.dnrc.bell-labs.com> from "Tom Limoncelli" at Feb 4, 97 02:45:21 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As long as we're sharing things, here's the relevant portion of the shell script for my list verification message. When I send this out, which I do about every 3 or 4 months, I generally get about 3% back asking to be unsubscribed, which I'm quite willing to do. (If the volume was higher or my list bigger, I'd write a perl script which turned those into a properly formatted command to my list manager, I've done that for other tasks.) Note that I put the address being tested in both the subject header and the body, which is VERY SHORT. Since I started using this script I've been able to identify virtually all bad addresses each time it ran. The first two lines serve to remove local addresses from the list, since I don't need to check them. This isn't sophisticated programming, but it works for me. echo $name | sed -e "/tssi.com/d" > name.check /usr/bin/grep '@' name.check && ( /bin/mailx -s "Path Check to $name" $name <; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 04:47:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199702041247.EAA12871@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: (qmail 56 invoked from network); 4 Feb 1997 12:46:17 -0000 Received: from ind-0008-15.iquest.net (206.246.171.79) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Feb 1997 12:46:17 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Machine-Knit List Owner" Organization: Machine-knit Email discussion list To: "Merrill Cook" Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 07:38:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from Reply-to: Machine-knit-owner@nyx.net CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <01IEXZM61XYW9AN0LG@mbcl.rutgers.edu> from "E. Allen Smith" at Feb 2, 97 02:33:00 pm In-reply-to: <9702022106.aa23532@pcusa01.ecunet.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2 Feb 97 at 21:06, Merrill Cook wrote: > On a simpler level, how about: people send an unsubscribe message > to the list address. It gets filtered and forwarded to the list > owner, who unsubscribes them manually. The lesson? "To > unsubscribe, you don't have to learn anything or RTFM; just reply > to the list address, someone will take care of it." That's the > message we give. Not me. Every error message gets sent to me and I make extensive use of mail filters to send instructions. I only unsubscribe bounces. I've had a few get mad, but the vast majority appreciate that me doing it for them will not shorten the learning curve. My list is made up mainly of women over the age of 50. The few times I've had really nasty notes from someone, it was a guy. I've been threatened with legal action for not removing a person from a list, only to have to explain to his ISP that I don't own the list the person wanted off of and have been trying to tell him that for weeks. I've also had someone send my complete list of archive requests to the request address with the word unsubscribe in the subject when I've repeatedly told people that SmartList doesn't like text in the body (like 25k worth) when sending requests. Then they scream when 5 mgs of archives arrive in their mailbox. DUH!!! I think one of the main problems we are dealing with is that in order to make the 'net accessible to *everyone* there has been a rush to automate things you simply had to know how to do in the past. And quite frankly, the internet was mainly for computer oriented people until just recently. People who realized that in order to get something accomplished, cooperation and standardization was essential. That is not the case anymore. For instance, my digest is in multipart/boundary form. How many mail readers can properly handle this type of digest? Not very many and none of the national online services mail readers can. Consequently, few of the 500 digest subscribers can properly respond to a message in a digest. Why? The digest itself is set to go back to the -request address. So that's where all the replies go unless the user manually changes the "to:" in the reply. The other option I have is to set the "reply-to:" to the list address, but is that a solution? Wouldn't the smart way to deal with that situation be to make mail readers handle mail properly? From my discussion with various services and software authors, this is not an option. So users start with a crippled mail reader and coupled with a general learning curve... well you get the picture. I've tried many things to educate my listers. I tried breaking the information into smaller chunks. I tried a little instructional blurb at the bottom of every email. I tried quizzes and now I have a little blurb at the bottom of my Welcome Letter asking them to drop me a line when they get to that part letting me know they read it. I've gotten about 20 of them out of 1500 subcriptions in the past year. None of it works. So what do I do? I tell them in the first paragraph of the Welcome letter that the Welcome letter and the subscription confirmation are the 2 most important pieces of information they can possess about the list. If they ask me to unsubscribe them I send instructions along with the reminder that they needed to hold onto those 2 pieces of information. All this is automated with a keystroke. And then I do not unsubscribe them. Amazingly enough, most of them figure it out (or close their account). If someone gets mouthy with me about it, I resend the Welcome letter (which clearly states that the task of unsubscribing is the responsibility of the subscriber) and inform them that staying on the list implied agreement to the rules of the list (as that is clearly stated, also) and suggest they read it carefully, like they should have done to begin with. While it's much easier for me to just unsubscribe them. It's really not doing them any favors. Sometimes it's like being a parent. For me, list members taking care of unsubscribing and getting their mail to the right address is pretty essential, so I don't fudge on that. I don't do it for them. Amy Stinson Amy Stinson Owner-Machine-knit Mailto:machine-knit-owner@nyx.net Http://www.iquest.net/~amys/machknit.htm From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 18:51:16 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id QAA05515 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id QAA05488 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fags.diversity.org.uk (fags.diversity.org.uk [195.224.28.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id GAA03755 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 06:17:01 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 04:25:40 GMT Message-ID: To: list-managers@his.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:28 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Gess Shankar wrote: > Received: by earthchannel.com (Aurora/32 Professional >3.0 (NT-10000008)) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:01:32 -0500 (EST) >Message-ID: <970202145627_XXX@emout04.mail.aol.com> If that's the real message-id:, it's a fake. If you've deleted the portion that would tell me precisely which message this was (from my logs), then I believe it -- there are plenty of clueless users out ther. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 18:55:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id QAA05550 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id QAA05540 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id OAA22878 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 14:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IF2CHI1HPU9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:24 EDT Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 17:24 EDT From: "E. Allen Smith" Subject: Re: Educating large mass To: brad@his.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01IF2CHI1HPU9AN48B@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"brad@his.com" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: IN%"brad@his.com" "Brad Knowles" 5-FEB-1997 00:31:13.98 > However, I think most people who've been on this list for a while >will remember the extreme vitriol that was levelled at AltaVista when >they tried this kind of thing, and not much less was levelled at >InReference (at least they set the default of "if you do nothing, we >will not subscribe and archive your list", while AltaVista set the >opposite default). Umm... IIRC, the offense against AltaVista et al was that A: they were _archiving_ the list, not enabling more people to read it and _respond_ to it real-time; and B. they were essentially charging money (through advertisements) for a function other than simply carrying the list in one way or another (nobody's mad at AOL for charging money to deliver email to their subscribers, so far as I know). From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 18:58:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id QAA05363 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id QAA05355 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from e55.webcom.com (e55.webcom.com [206.2.192.85]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id RAA19913 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:54:07 -0800 (PST) From: leavitt@webcom.com Received: from ultra2.webcom.com by e55.webcom.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA019527761; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:56:01 -0800 Received: from ultra2 ([206.2.192.66]) by ultra2.webcom.com (Netscape Mail Server v) with SMTP id AAA7466 for ; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:55:06 -0800 Received: by ultra2 (SMI-8.6) id RAA07461; Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:55:04 -0800 Message-Id: <199702050155.RAA07461@ultra2> Subject: Re: AOL mailbox limit, hig volume lists in general To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 17:55:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199702050022.QAA00361@ayla.idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Feb 4, 97 04:22:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Uhh... I hate to chime in like this, but the amount of wasted bandwidth is getting seriously problematic. I subscribe to this list to keep up on various hi-jinks, known problems, etc. ... the signal to noise ratio is getting pretty high. Can we like not chew on each other in public... perhaps contemplating the usefulness of a particular posting to the other 800 people for 10 seconds before hitting the send button might be helpful? Thomas > > Dan the qmail man wrote: > > > Can't you be informative or instructive without insulting me, too? > > Can't you avoid spouting nonsense about things you don't understand? > > You were faced with something surprising, something beyond your > > experience---namely, that VERPs handle every bounce message reliably. > > > You had no clue what VERPs were. > > > You should have expressed your surprise and asked how VERPs worked, > > But you didn't. Instead, you baldly claimed that the surprising fact > > wasn't true. You claimed that VERPs depend on support from other MTAs. > > Don't blame me for your mistake. > > Man, the arrogance tossed around here is really convincing me that > I don't want to get anywhere _near_ this qmail product, no matter > how wonder it might be. > > Maybe you need a better approach to promoting your product than > acting superior and insulting people. > > --Kynn > > -- Web Communications (sm) Thomas Leavitt--leavitt@webcom.com Voice: (408) 457-9671 x101 Executive Vice President Web Communications Home Page From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 19:19:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id TAA24893 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2.earthchannel.com (ec2.earthchannel.com [205.160.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id TAA24875 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:16:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ec2 (unverified [205.160.16.65]) by ec2.earthchannel.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 05 Feb 1997 22:15:26 -0500 Message-ID: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Gess Shankar" Organization: Earth Channel Communications LLC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:15:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror Reply-to: gess@earthchannel.com In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.52) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5 Feb 97 at 4:25, Brad Knowles wrote: > At 6:28 PM -0500 2/2/1997, Gess Shankar wrote: > > > Received: by earthchannel.com (Aurora/32 Professional > >3.0 (NT-10000008)) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:01:32 -0500 (EST) > >Message-ID: <970202145627_XXX@emout04.mail.aol.com> > > If that's the real message-id:, it's a fake. If you've deleted > the portion that would tell me precisely which message this was (from > my logs), then I believe it -- there are plenty of clueless users out > ther. > I don't care if you believe it or not. I did not make this up. I did say that I changed the name. Maybe I omitted to say I changed the message id too. I wasn't going to post stuff which points to a particular person in a public lst. I was only giving an example that people do not seem to read instructions which are mailed to them and did not expect any remedy from you. If you are implying that I made this up to make a point, you are barking up the wrong tree. Gess Gess Shankar List Admin., OptimaPP gess@earthchannel.com List archives: http://www.earthchannel.com/binpub/archives/optimapp/ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 20:04:00 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id TAA27017 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) id TAA26972 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA24828 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 19:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA179226; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:13:46 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id WAA21354; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:13:46 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199702060313.WAA21354@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Mass subscribe in progress To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:13:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, all. Brett Gmoser is being subscribed to all of our lists. If you don't use confirms, you might want to check your subscriber files for the poor guy. Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 22:35:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA18238 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA18227 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.209] (shiva1-mclean-209.his.com [205.252.121.209]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA29649; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:26:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199702050629.AAA15170@wubios.wustl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:00:34 -0500 To: "J. Philip Miller" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: fresh horror from AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:29 AM -0500 2/5/1997, J. Philip Miller wrote: >This seems to be a valid model other businesses have adopted. Blockbuster >Video will only rent 3 tapes at a time for the first 20 rentals. Many >merchants will not accept "starter checks." If you do not have an established >record with most untilities they will want a special deposit, etc. This is an *excellent* point. I believe that this will be about as convincing an argument as we're likely to make, combined with some of the other things that have been said. Thank you *very* much. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 5 22:39:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA18008 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA17960 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.209] (shiva1-mclean-209.his.com [205.252.121.209]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA29498; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 01:25:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199701222307.SAA22835@www6.clever.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:17:07 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: Educating large masses of users (was: Re: fresh horror from AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:02 AM -0500 2/