From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 2 19:17:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id TAA25018 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:03:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id TAA24986 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 19:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by shore.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.2) with SMTP id WAA05437 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA07384; Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:32 -0500 Message-ID: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:31 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: human contact for AOL? X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email equivilent of a blank stare... Jeff From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 07:19:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA01940 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA01754 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:13:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.34]) with SMTP; 3 Mar 1997 15:11:31 UT Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by zax.leftbank.com (8.7.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) id KAA16258; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:11:36 -0500 (EST) From: "Nathan J. Mehl" Message-Id: <199703031511.KAA16258@zax.leftbank.com> Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Mar 2, 97 10:01:31 pm X-Abby-Says: Nathan, you keep getting to be the first person who does things to me X-My-Minions: Took over Arisia X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Jeff Wasilko: > Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having > problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists > (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. It's rare for mail to abuse@aol.com to not even be acknowledged. If you're 100% sure that your complaints to that address didn't produce even a form-letter response, you should send a short, concise and polite note to David O'Donnell, pmdatropos@aol.com. David is AOL's administrative contact, so you can imagine his mail load. Keep it to the point and don't expect an immediate response, or even necessarily one from him. -n -- Don't blame me -- I voted for the Unabomber! Nathan J. Mehl -- The Left Bank Operation (work) nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com (play) memory@blank.org -- http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nmehl/ From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 07:32:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id HAA02673 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pine.liii.com (pine.liii.com [198.207.193.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id HAA02511; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 07:17:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from rowan.liii.com by pine.liii.com with SMTP (5.67b/15Feb94-Long Island Information) id AA21820; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:17 -0500 Received: from localhost (denic@localhost) by rowan.liii.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA05412; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: rowan.liii.com: denic owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:16:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis N. Aruta" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #47 In-Reply-To: <199703030900.BAA24842@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk D.N.Aruta, Owner International Commerce List, IC-L#0000 http://www.liii.com/~denic (LIVE chat)--->irc.liii.com irc.liii.fef.net /join #denic Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1969) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: 516-326-2519 New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, List-Managers-Digest wrote: > Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 01:00:24 -0800 (PST) > From: List-Managers-Digest > Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: List-Managers-Digest V6 #47 > > > List-Managers-Digest Monday, March 3 1997 Volume 06 : Number 047 > > > > In this issue: > > human contact for AOL? > > See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the List-Managers > or List-Managers-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 22:01:31 -0500 > From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) > Subject: human contact for AOL? > > Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having > problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists > (including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > > I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. > > I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban > him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to > have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and > I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email > equivilent of a blank stare... > > Jeff > > ------------------------------ Jeff, if you wish to discuss, I have had the same problems. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 22:38:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17362 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA17199 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.246] (shiva1-mclean-246.his.com [205.252.121.246]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA02252; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:55:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703031511.KAA16258@zax.leftbank.com> References: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> from "Jeff Wasilko" at Mar 2, 97 10:01:31 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:43:12 -0500 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" , jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:11 AM -0500 3/3/1997, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >If you're 100% sure that your complaints to that address didn't >produce even a form-letter response, you should send a short, >concise and polite note to David O'Donnell, pmdatropos@aol.com. David is away from the office for a little while, so even if you send him email at this address, it will result in an automated form-letter response, and may or may not be delayed in having a real human look at it until he gets back. I've sent copies of the original posting to addresses of several people who work for David, and since I don't know which of them might be the ultimate right person, I'll just leave it at that. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 3 22:44:09 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id VAA17307 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id VAA17203 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 21:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.252.121.246] (shiva1-mclean-246.his.com [205.252.121.246]) by mail.his.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA02192; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:55:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970302220131.PM53746@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:37:23 -0500 To: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: human contact for AOL? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:01 PM -0500 3/2/1997, Jeff Wasilko wrote: >Can anyone reccomend a human contact at AOL? I've been having >problems with an AOL subscriber abusing one of my mailing lists >(including sending harrassing email directly to subscribers). > >I've sent mail to abuse@aol.com but never heard back. That's the correct email address. >I'm now going to remove that subscriber from the list and ban >him, but given the ease of creating screen names, I expect to >have more problems when he realizes that he's been removed and >I'd like to be able to get more from AOL than the email >equivilent of a blank stare... All other email addresses I would give you would point back to that same server and the same procmail filters to generate the auto-replies and to auto-sort the mail into separate mailboxes. I'll forward a copy of your note directly to some of the Postmaster folks. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 08:33:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA05657 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA05589 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by sparkie.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id KAA26513 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:01:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:01:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Your friend at:" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Moderator information request In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I would like to introduce myself. I was born 12/17/57 in New Orleans, Louisiana and still live near New Orleans. I am developing a community service organization. You can check our website at (http://www.gnofn.org/~oxoasis). Thank you for your patience and if I can be of any assistance, please let me know. This organization wants the homeless and those in need to have the facility to maintain their bodily needs so that they are free to take time for spiritual advancement. We wish to do this through cruelty-free methods. We promote all forms of natural living in food relief, community gardening, arts&crafts, sustainable agriculture, child protection and animal protection. You are welcome to join our mailing list ox-oasis by sending the message (subscribe ox-oasis) to (Majordomo@igc.apc.org). I use only dos, not windows and have had the hardest time trying to figure out how to moderate our nonprofit mailing list. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. There are people in great need of our assistance. Sincerely, Christopher J. Flores <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> "By thus engaging in devotional service to the Lord, great sages or devotees free themselves from the results of work in the material world. In this way they become free from the cycle of birth and death and attain the state beyond all miseries (by going back to Godhead)." (Bhagavad Gita 2.51) From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 10:18:47 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id KAA22761 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA22676 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA57050; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:49 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA42750; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:52 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703041810.NAA42750@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Re: Moderator information request To: cjf01@gnofn.org (Your friend at:) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Your friend at:" at Mar 4, 97 10:01:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Prodigy, Inc. runs a Majordomo mailing list server. We have an application form at http://goodstuff.prodigy.com/Lists/application.htm that you can fill out if you are looking for a host server. We select lists based on their appeal to Prodigy members, and for their fit with our online communities--it looks like yours would have a good chance (I don't make the final decision personally). Sincerely, Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. > Hi! > > I would like to introduce myself. I was born 12/17/57 in New > Orleans, Louisiana and still live near New Orleans. I am developing a > community service organization. You can check our website at > (http://www.gnofn.org/~oxoasis). Thank you for your patience and if I can > be of any assistance, please let me know. > > This organization wants the homeless and those in need to have the > facility to maintain their bodily needs so that they are free to take time > for spiritual advancement. We wish to do this through cruelty-free > methods. We promote all forms of natural living in food relief, community > gardening, arts&crafts, sustainable agriculture, child protection and > animal protection. You are welcome to join our mailing list ox-oasis by > sending the message (subscribe ox-oasis) to (Majordomo@igc.apc.org). > > I use only dos, not windows and have had the hardest time trying > to figure out how to moderate our nonprofit mailing list. Any suggestions > would be greatly appreciated. There are people in great need of our > assistance. > > Sincerely, > > Christopher J. Flores From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 4 13:50:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id NAA16078 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id NAA15983 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA03033; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:04:50 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970304130949.00d8c214@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:18:00 -0800 To: Bonnie Scott From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Moderator information request Cc: cjf01@gnofn.org (Your friend at:), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:10 PM 3/4/97 -0500, Bonnie Scott wrote: >Prodigy, Inc. runs a Majordomo mailing list server. We have an application >form at: [...] Nothing personal against Bonnie, but maybe replies that are more akin to "advertising" could be done in private email? I know that several other people on the list (including myself) are willing to provide servers for lists, but I'm not sure if I want to see the list-managers list turn into a free-for-all with offers of list hosting. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Enter the Virtual Dog Show! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 5 10:34:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09885 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA09785 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 09:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA23108; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:49:56 -0600 (CST) To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: Bonnie Scott , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moderator information request References: <3.0.32.19970304130949.00d8c214@mail.idyllmtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 05 Mar 1997 11:49:55 -0600 In-Reply-To: Kynn Bartlett's message of Tue, 04 Mar 1997 13:18:00 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.16/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "KB" == Kynn Bartlett writes: KB> Nothing personal against Bonnie, but maybe replies that are more akin KB> to "advertising" could be done in private email? Actually, I'm happy to have that information. If Prodigy were selling their list hosting services then I'd object, but they are providing a useful service which I for one did not know about until Bonnie's message. KB> I know that several other people on the list (including myself) are KB> willing to provide servers for lists, but I'm not sure if I want to see KB> the list-managers list turn into a free-for-all with offers of list KB> hosting. It would truly be wonderful if a potential list generated such enthusiasm. If such a flood of offer messages is expected, perhaps someone should write up a FAQ about this listing contacts for free hosting services. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 6 08:19:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id IAA20835 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (grolsch.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id IAA20684 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from cs.ubc.ca (uucp@news.cs.ubc.ca [142.103.6.2]) by grolsch.cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA24953 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by cs.ubc.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA24518 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11:23 -0800 (PST) >Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id HAA25465; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:44:52 -0800 Received: from cs.ubc.ca by nnrp.cs.ubc.ca; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 08:11 PST Received: from mornir.gweep.bc.ca by edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca (Sendmail 8.7.5) with SMTP id HAA25465; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 07:44:52 -0800 Received: (qmail 3669 invoked by uid 1180); 6 Mar 1997 15:44:39 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Moderator information request X-Operating-System: Linux 2.0.0 #2 Fri Oct 11 18:52:27 PDT 1996 X-Geek: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/doc/geek.html X-Homepage: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds X-PGP-Ox6E86B769: This key is obsolete, please discard it. X-PGP-Ox979D0B09: A9 3E 1E CB 86 09 B1 E9 3C 1A 0E F6 49 F9 5D 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) From: edmonds@cs.ubc.ca (Brian Edmonds) Date: 06 Mar 1997 07:44:39 -0800 In-Reply-To: Jason L Tibbitts III's message of 05 Mar 1997 11:49:55 -0600 Message-ID: <374tep10uw.fsf@mornir.gweep.bc.ca> Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 19.14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason L Tibbitts writes: > If such a flood of offer messages is expected, perhaps someone should > write up a FAQ about this listing contacts for free hosting services. My ml-providers list already has such a section, but the only for-free service (besides LISTSERV) pulled out some months back due to lack of time. I've sent Bonnie a note soliciting an entry from Prodigy, but have not heard back yet. Feel free to point any serious providers my way -- I try to avoid the "I run Linux on my home machine and can do lists over my dialup connection" as that's how I run my own lists, and I know how unstable it is. Brian. From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 6 23:19:27 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id WAA25791 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from the-great-machine.mit.edu (THE-GREAT-MACHINE.MIT.EDU [18.238.0.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id WAA25717 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jered@localhost) by the-great-machine.mit.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA11656 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:51:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:51:13 -0500 From: Jered J Floyd Message-Id: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Delivering to large mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Fellow list managers, I have just brought a very large mailing list (~10000 subscribers, cwd@vorlon.mit.edu, Brock Meeks' CyberWire Digest) into production here, and am unsatisifed with sendmail's delivery speed. My main problem is that sendmail only uses one process per message to deliver mail, which I find to be suboptimal for a list of this size. One option I have would be to use qmail, but I would prefer not to do that for several reasons. One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? Thanks. --Jered Floyd jered@mit.edu majordomo-owner@vorlon.mit.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 11:05:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id LAA14738 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rintintin.sierra.com (rintintin.sierra.com [199.238.230.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id KAA14678 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (philip@localhost) by rintintin.sierra.com (8.7.6/8.7.3-jmm-p) with SMTP id KAA07498; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:57:51 -0800 (PST) From: Philip Hallstrom X-Sender: philip@rintintin To: Jered J Floyd cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program > called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' > for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate > this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? > Thanks. The one I'm familiar with is writtin in C, but it's still pretty useful. We use it to send out a quasi-monthly newsletter to ~200,000 people and it seems to do it okay (although it still takes awhile :) Try... (If that's wrong, let me know... typed it by hand...) Good luck! -philip From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 15:18:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id PAA08372 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:11:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from solutions.apple.com (solutions.apple.com [17.255.34.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id PAA08297 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by solutions.apple.com (8.6.10/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id PAA10057; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:23 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:10:30 -0800 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is just FYI -- not thrilled at having to do this, but you should be aware this has been happening and juno.com has simply not responded to anything despite repeated requests for help. Be aware, and wary. chuq ---- To all our plaidworks users: I have just sent the following note to all of our former fellow subscribers from the juno.com domain. I'm posting this to all of the lists as well, so that everyone knows what happened, and because some of our users will have magically and suddenly disappeared, probably in the middle of conversations. Hopefully, the attached letter explains everything -- if not, contact Laurie or myself privately and we'll discuss it further. I'm very sorry to have had to do this. I do hope all of our legitimate users will return to the lists from accounts that aren't under embargo soon. And please be sure that we will do everything in our power to protect you from idiots like the one that caused this problem -- I've only had to embargo one site other than juno in all of the time we've run plaidworks. Hopefully, this will be the last one, too. Sincerely, Chuq Von Rospach owner, Plaidworks ---- letter attached --- To our users of plaidworks mailing lists from juno.com: I'm sorry to have to report that effective today, March 7, 1997, we are terminating ALL use of our list services to all users from the juno.com domain. We have been having continuing problems with abusive users and postings from this domain, being posted from the accounts . Despite repeated requests for help to the juno.com administrators, we've yet to receive a REPLY, much less any cooperation. Because of this, we have to conclude that juno.com simply doesn't care what its users do, and we have to protect our legitimate users and our services from the site. We have declared juno a pirate outpost on the net, and therefore, will no longer allow it access to our services. This affects 77 users with 94 subscriptions on our site. This is something we don't enjoy doing, but we feel this is necessary under the circumstances. Our legitmate users are encouraged to subscribe back onto our lists from some other system, and we encourage you to tell the Juno.com administration what you think about this lack of responsiveness. You might also drop a note to machoman and tell him how much you appreciate him doing this to you, but please: be nice about it, since we don't want our users to drop down to the level of the person who forced us into this. Please don't complain to us -- it won't help, and the situation won't change until we're convinced juno.com DOES, in fact, police its users. Unfortunately, to date, all they've proven is that they won't. When that changes, we'll re-evaluate the situation. Until then, all we can do is encourage you to find an ISP that cares about its reputation and its users. My apologies for the inconvenience I know this will cause you, but the situation leaves us no choice. Sincerely, Chuq Von Rospach Owner, plaidworks. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 7 20:18:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Lists-960417-1) id UAA25088 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:15:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with SMTP id UAA25058 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.6.9/A/UX 3.1) with ESMTP id UAA07799; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 20:14:50 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 19:59:43 -0800 To: "ListMom-Talk Discussion List" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:12 PM -0800 3/7/97, Stan Ryckman wrote: >I think you're overreacting. it wasn't your mother he was talking about, on the THIRD account he created at Juno to get around my kicking him off the other two. How many times do I have to let him log back on and start that filth, with no response from his postmasters, before I'm not overreacting? Five? Ten? 20? Or do I just get used to wakign up, reading the f--k-letter of the day, and kicking it off wondering what name he'll appear as tomorrow? > You are punishing 77 innocent people, plus >the uncountable others who enjoy conversing with them, because of your >personal problems dealing with a slow-to-act ISP. And then there are the 7,000 I'm protecting.... >No, you are *forcing* them to choose. Support my boycott, or be gone! Nope. You forgot the other option: find a different email address and be welcomed back. >How much pressure do you expect to put on juno.com by forcing 77 people >off your list for nothing they did? Those 77 aren't going to be mad >at juno; they're going to be mad at *you*. I don't care. None, if that's what they want. Juno.com can no longer spread filth on my sites, which is what really matters to me.And in fact, response from the juno users is mixed. Some positive, some negative, a couple hostile, one or two clueless. One of the guys who'd been kicked off demanded he be unsubscribed from my lists, since he's now on strike against me or something.... >Bull. You could have left your 77 well-behaved subscribers there, and just > (a) reject posts from the 3 offenders; and/or > (b) rejected new subscribers from juno.com. >You had plenty of choices. And I have 7,000 that no longer have to read the crap he was sending. A small price to pay. If a postmaster will not police his own domain, I'll have to do it for him. And ufnortuately, I can't use a rifle the way he could. there will be collateral damage. but they had a chance, and ignored me. >Did anyone other than yourself complain to juno? yes. I've heard from a number of users. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 17:17:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA25178 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from williams.edu (goshen.williams.edu [137.165.4.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA25170 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 17:14:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hancock.cc.williams.edu (hancock.cc.williams.edu [137.165.4.17]) by goshen.williams.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA19664 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [137.165.31.167] (student_98bsh.williams.edu) by hancock.cc.williams.edu (4.1/client-1.3) id AA23031; Sat, 8 Mar 97 20:20:13 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 20:20:10 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brian Subject: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post a buy/sell advertisement? From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 18:32:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id SAA14630 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id SAA14559 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.di.com by bbfm.di.com with ESMTP id SAA27641 for on Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:26:11 -0800 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) id <01BC2BED.A800CEC0@exchange.di.com>; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:18 -0800 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: JUNO problems Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:17 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been tempted to kick all Juno people off my lists, as well, but for a completely different reason - Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. My digests regularly exceed this amount. Some weeks, my auto-bouncer bot goes and kicks all juno users off due to excessive bouncing, and they all have to resubscribe again. I'll probably just make Majordomo screen out all juno.com requests in the future to prevent all this wasted bandwidth. -todd- From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 19:47:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA19570 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id TAA19541 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.92]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA07498 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:50:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970309035401.006d9ff4@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:54:01 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:20 PM 3/8/97 -0500, Brian wrote: >Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post >a buy/sell advertisement? Why, yes indeed. I have the perfect mailing list for you to post your advertisement to. It's called the ASHcan-L. What more perfect place for your spam than the 'Can? Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 19:51:06 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA19196 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id TAA19179 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:35:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.92]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA07289 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:42:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:46:49 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: JUNO problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:22 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Todd wrote: >I've been tempted to kick all Juno people off my lists, as well, but for >a completely different reason - Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. My >digests regularly exceed this amount. Some weeks, my auto-bouncer bot >goes and kicks all juno users off due to excessive bouncing, and they >all have to resubscribe again. I'll probably just make Majordomo screen >out all juno.com requests in the future to prevent all this wasted >bandwidth. Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a maximum of 55K or smaller? I don't know how many Juno subscribers you have, but I doubt any of you have a greater percentage than I have on my Juno_accmail List. And for my zine, The ASHcan-L, I always make sure it does not exceed Juno's limitations because there too, I have a great many Juno subscribers. Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. Bounce-wise, it is not Juno or AOL that gives me the most problems, especially taking in consideration percentage of subscribers. I see greater problems from AT&T Worldnet and MSN subscribers. But I would not even consider blocking those accounts from subscribing to my lists because I would view that as patently discriminatory. I could not punish an individual for the failures of their ISP, nor could I punish a group of innocents for the mistakes of a few individuals. There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. This is especially true of many Juno users. Castigating them for what is of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 20:02:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id TAA20277 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id TAA20221 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from gates.idyllmtn.com (gates.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.103]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA27395; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 19:58:13 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970308201121.00c69c7c@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 20:11:28 -0800 To: "Alan S. Harrell" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:54 PM 3/8/97 -0600, Alan S. Harrell wrote: >At 08:20 PM 3/8/97 -0500, Brian wrote: >>Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post >>a buy/sell advertisement? > Why, yes indeed. I have the perfect mailing list for you to post > your advertisement to. It's called the ASHcan-L. What more perfect > place for your spam than the 'Can? Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.* Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be there. "For sale" advertisements are _not_ automatically spam. Sheesh. And for Brian -- no, I don't know of any, but you might try www.liszt.com as a starting point of your search; it includes links to other good places which I can't remember offhand the URLs for (such as the PAML list). -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Enter the Virtual Dog Show! www.dogshow.com From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 8 21:32:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id VAA23329 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from atheria.europa.com (atheria.europa.com [199.2.194.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id VAA23322 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from kali(really [206.163.12.98]) by atheria.europa.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:33:10 -0800 (PST) (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #4 built 1997-Jan-19) Message-ID: <33224BED.57A7@europa.com> Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 21:34:37 -0800 From: kali X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: JUNO problems References: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You > may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not > you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force > and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. This cracks me up because I don't believe I have a single Juno subscriber on any of my lists (not by any intervention of mine of course). I wonder why..... The only real problem I have ever had is with universities. Many of them have their mail systems configured to disallow any bulk mailings. This is has pro's in that their students won't have to suffer with bulk mailed spams, but it also means that I can't allow these people on my mailing list. Unless I'm missing some configuration that overrides this?? (I can't change the fact that they are bulk mailed, must stay that way) -Kali kali@europa.com From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 08:02:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA13959 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:54:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA13952 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 07:54:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa07635; 9 Mar 97 8:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 09 Mar 97 07:18:29 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: JUNO problems From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <4u1a4D1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 07:00:14 PST In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Alan S. Harrell" writes: > Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a > maximum of 55K or smaller? Nerdnosh is actually a magazine issued daily, and it is archived strictly by volume and issue number, and the mere suggestion I would distort that for the sake of folks not serious enough about Net mail to pay even a penny for it is utterly prepostrous. > Juno Online Services brags one and a half million accounts. You > may wish to snub them, but it is they that have the clout -- not > you. Look, supposing you were designing your operation around participation, rather than sheer numbers. Much like market research, you would be interested in the accounts which might bring back returns. I am interested in readers, yes, but I'm more interested in those willing to participate. I look at even the inflated numbers given for Juno, and I see also the many-times more wired connections out there which don't have the Juno limitations, and - well, the alleged `clout' dissolves. AOL and Juno have an interest in producing numbers; they sell advertising on that basis alone. All a vast array of accounts means to us here on Nerdnosh is the chance of finding more active members. And, I'm sorry, Juno just doesn't carry that rep with me. > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. Many listowners likewise must triage energy and resources. We all must decide - how much trouble is that account worth in relation to that it causes? It isn't likely that Juno will have a POP in your neighborhood and no other access for a more legitimate ISP does. I don't block Juno accounts. But it's for sure I won't be adapting my operation to them either, even though, as the old saying goes, some of my best members - . --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 09:02:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA16683 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [207.71.205.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id IAA16666 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:57:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.di.com by bbfm.di.com with ESMTP id JAA32147 for on Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:00:17 -0800 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) id <01BC2C67.C3FEA370@exchange.di.com>; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:56:24 -0800 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: JUNO problems Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:56:22 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1389.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why can't you simply configure your digest to a >maximum of 55K or smaller? My digest has been a once-a-day event for the last five years. It is heavily moderated by me. I'm not going to change to a two-a-day digest just because some el-cheapo ISP comes along and can't deal with the volume... I am not "punishing" or "snubbing" anyone by this policy. That would imply that I have some some deliberate thought-out rule that they are breaking, and that I am going out of my way to prevent them from receiving my digest. I set up the digest as once-a-day because the conversation on this particular digest just works better that way, and it is the readership that has pushed the content over 61k/day. Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a ridiculously low e-mail size. That sort of thing might have been good back in the 80s, but with all the "rich text" sources available today, it seems mighty low... >Castigating them for what is >of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly >the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. I put in an hour a day of my own time on my digest, paying back the "spirit of the Internet". If I recolllect properly, the "spirit of the Internet" never involved making things more difficult for the people providing services for free, just because you are too cheap or don't have the resources to access the free material... After all, there are TONS of people without even an e-mail account! I really hate all these Johnny-come-lately access providers that seem to go out of their way to make things difficult for those of us who provide things for free, and are not willing to fix their mistakes when we point them out. -todd- From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 9 10:47:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA19610 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:34:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU (GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.98.29]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA19603 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.2.98.8] by GRINCH.RES.CMU.EDU with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:39:29 -0500 X-Sender: josh@grinch.res.cmu.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199703090900.BAA01480@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-URL: http://thelorax.skyweyr.com/josh.html X-Planation: My mountain is waiting... Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 13:31:43 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Joshua D. Baer" Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V6 #53 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 AM -0500 3/9/97, list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM (List-Managers-Dige wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post > a buy/sell advertisement? We offer legitimate, no-spam advertising on most of the lists we host. Take a look at for a list of our publicly accessible lists to see the topics available. Please contact me privately if you'd like more information. ~Josh -- ---------------------------------- Joshua D. Baer SkyList Mailing List Hosting Service http://cgi.skyweyr.com/Guest.Login From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 13:02:25 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id MAA23000 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id MAA22993 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 12:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa23324; 9 Mar 97 13:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sun, 09 Mar 97 12:15:39 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: JUNO problems From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sun, 09 Mar 97 12:11:59 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day writes: > Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a > ridiculously low e-mail size. It does seem sort of arbitrary, when you consider there doesn't seem to be any limit to the aggragate mail. I cannot in my Juno account receive a 65K file, but I can let it run for days and build up many many times that without causing even a ripple to Juno SysAdmin (which phantom entity may be the unicorn of the net...)... --- mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:info@clovis.nerdnosh.org http://www.corcom.com/reloj/Nerdnosh.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 14:17:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id OAA24529 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id OAA24519 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:02:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA01245; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:08:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:08:01 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Todd Day Cc: "List Manager's Digest (E-mail)" Subject: Re: JUNO problems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Todd Day wrote: > I really hate all these Johnny-come-lately access providers that seem to > go out of their way to make things difficult for those of us who provide > things for free, and are not willing to fix their mistakes when we point > them out. It is neither Juno's fault nor your fault. Juno is providing a free service to all those who use it. Nobody's forcing them to use it and the terms are very simple. You get what you pay for. You also provide a free service. Anybody who wants to receive it can, anybody who cannot receive it is losing out. THe problem is with those who demand everything that you and I get -- from a free service. The same, BTW, holds true for any provider. There are no secrets anymore in this game. If AOL limits you -- either keep your load down or go to someone else who puts their priority on allowing their user's more e-mail storage. The option is all up to the consumer -- both you and Juno provide whatever you want. If somebody wishes to receive it, that's their problem to figure out how. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 16:47:19 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id QAA28971 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:37:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca [129.128.5.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id QAA28964 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 16:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (gerald@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca [129.128.65.240]) by quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA63142 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:35 -0700 Received: (from gerald@localhost) by stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA00351 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:30 -0700 From: Gerald Oskoboiny Message-Id: <199703100043.RAA00351@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca> Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:43:29 -0700 (MST) In-Reply-To: <199703070651.BAA11656@the-great-machine.mit.edu> from "Jered J Floyd" at Mar 7, 97 01:51:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jered J Floyd writes: > One solution that has been suggested to me is to use a helper program > called bulk_mailer.pl, which breaks large lists into 'bite-sized chunks' > for sendmail to deliver. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate > this tool. Is anyone familiar with it, and knows where it can be found? Another good solution is 'splitlist': http://www.isf.ru/~stas/splitlist/ This page says, among other things: | Q.: Many of the Majordomo users asked me, why I didn't use bulk_mailer ? | | A.: First, I didn't know about it at all. Second, bulk_mailer uses | sendmail command line instead of SMTP, and this means it can't | decide properly whether to fork sendmail, or just put the message in the | queue. While talking via SMTP, Sendmail checks the system load and | makes decision - to fork or not to fork. One thing I didn't like about splitlist is that you had to set the number of recipients per message globally in your majordomo.cf, so I changed it to calculate this figure on the fly using a new variable ($numSplitlistChunks) and the number of recipients on the list currently being split. If anyone wants my changes, let me know. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny Phone: +1 403 492 7698 Systems Analyst, Information Systems Fax: +1 403 492 7172 Office of the Registrar and Student Awards University of Alberta From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 17:17:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA29691 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:11:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id RAA29682 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 17:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16018; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:17:05 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 20:17:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Kayak X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: ListMom-Talk Discussion List , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com...off of my sites. I agree w U In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good for you, Chuq. Permissiveness and infinite forgiveness works for those who live sheltered lives; but it is not wisdom. Good for you. - Paul --- "To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man." - Oliver Wendell Holmes From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 9 22:47:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA11487 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 22:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [192.80.84.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id WAA11480 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 22:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA09865; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 (EST) From: Brock Rozen To: Gerald Oskoboiny Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199703100043.RAA00351@stimpy.registrar.ualberta.ca> Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: > Another good solution is 'splitlist': IMO, tlb is the best one. Best for majordomo as the author of it is one of the majordomo-workers and will obviously, make it easy to integrate tlb into majordomo. Let's you reduce the number of aliases you need, speeds things up and gives you lots of control. Write to tibbs@hpc.uh.edu for information ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@webdreams.com | http://www.webdreams.com/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 05:18:26 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA02163 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net ([205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA02142 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net (wwgnet.com [205.241.85.32]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22188 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:18:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:22:00 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:11 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Kynn wrote: >Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" >are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to >run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.* >Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be >there. Pejorative aside, spam is any unwanted, unsolicited advertisement, and largely in the eye of the be-getter. I especially do not want ads on my mailing lists. If you allow them on yours, so be it. >"For sale" advertisements are _not_ automatically spam. Sheesh. They ^are^ on my mailing lists and I have made that very clear to my subscribers. Posting an advertisement to my list, no matter how legitimate, will get a subscriber removed immediately. I have a great deal of tolerance for spam sent to me personally, but when it posts to my lists I feel as if the poster is trying to take control of my list for his own purposes. This I cannot allow. >And for Brian -- no, I don't know of any, but you might try >www.liszt.com as a starting point of your search; it includes >links to other good places which I can't remember offhand the >URLs for (such as the PAML list). Invite Brian to your list(s). Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 06:47:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id GAA04999 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:33:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA04972 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 06:32:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA02953; Mon, 10 Mar 97 09:31:15 EST Date: Mon, 10 Mar 97 09:31:15 EST From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: methods for moderating Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've subscribed to this list because I will be setting up a mailing list in the future. I'd like to know from managers who moderate their list how they do this. ---Amy West Merriam-Webster Inc. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 07:32:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA07785 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA07757 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sparkie.gnofn.org (sparkie.gnofn.org [206.27.168.35]) by sparkie.gnofn.org (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id JAA10906; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:33:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Your friend at:" To: Amy West cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: methods for moderating In-Reply-To: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Friends, I have trouble with this also. I'm still using dos and have still not figured out how to moderate using dos. The system advise did not seem t o work. Sincerely, Christopher OX <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> (Bhagavad Gita 2.51) On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Amy West wrote: > I've subscribed to this list because I will > be setting up a mailing list in the future. > I'd like to know from managers who moderate their > list how they do this. > > ---Amy West > Merriam-Webster Inc. > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 08:03:04 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA09914 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from webex.webex.com (webex.webex.com [205.139.142.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id HAA09889 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:56:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.139.142.60] (vknelson.webex.com [205.139.142.60]) by webex.webex.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA07794; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:13:37 -0600 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9703101431.AA02953@m-w.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:02:36 -0600 To: "Your friend at:" From: Valencia King Nelson Subject: Re: methods for moderating Cc: Amy West , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:33 AM -0600 3/10/97, Your friend at: wrote: >Dear Friends, > > I have trouble with this also. I'm still using dos and have still >not figured out how to moderate using dos. The system advise did not seem >t o work. > >Sincerely, Add me to that list needing such information. I manage (try) a list of about 600 subscribers whose primary interst is genealogy. The list is open and that has problems. I use EudoraPro on my Performa 6200 with Turbo re-direct capabilities. I guess that is how to get the mail out once it comes to me but I am not sure. Any help will be much appreciated. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> mailto:VKN@aol.com mailto:vknelson@webex.com Valencia King Nelson Co-Owner/Moderator Afrigeneas Mailing List African Ancestored Genealogy http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/History/afrigen/index.html From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 10:20:37 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id JAA16572 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id JAA16540 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA27305; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:53:02 -0600 (CST) To: List Managers Subject: Re: Delivering to large mailing lists References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 10 Mar 1997 11:53:01 -0600 In-Reply-To: Brock Rozen's message of Mon, 10 Mar 1997 01:47:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.22/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BR" == Brock Rozen writes: BR> IMO, tlb is the best one. Since Brock has done me the favor of advertising TLB for me, I'll do a quick explanation. Forgive me if I center too much on Majordomo; I've never tried TLB on anything else. Like bulk_mailer and splitlist, TLB lets you trade CPU and memory for multiple parallel deliveries. TLB also lets you spread delivery out among several hosts. I have five machines that deliver outgoing list mail in parallel, and none of them is the machine that runs the list software. While single-host parallel delivery is something you can get from one of the newer MTAs, TLB can still be used to provide multiple host parallelism. TLB is callable as a mailer from Majordomo, eliminating the need for (and the security holes of) outgoing aliases. It can call archiving and digestifying programs itself, so you don't need aliases to do those, either. TLB has piles of different sorting and batching options. TLB can send addresses matching regular expressions to different sets of hosts, allowing cheap domain-based remote exploding given cooperating remote machines. The down side: TLB is big (written in perl, 5.003 and several modules required), reasonably difficult to configure, and can consume huge amounts of resources. I am not currently doing any development of TLB (though I'll still support it and fix simple bugs) because I'm rewriting it and turning it into a delivery engine for a future version of Majordomo. I may then turn it back into a standalone product, but it will be a while before I come to that point. TLB is at ftp://ftp.hpc.uh.edu/pub/tlb/ -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 11:03:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id KAA24370 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id KAA24361 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA14464; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:23 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA134838; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:13 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703101859.NAA134838@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Re: JUNO problems To: tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:59:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Tim Bowden" at Mar 9, 97 12:11:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just FYI, there is a list where you can discuss Juno to your heart's content: juno_accmail-digest@world.std.com I believe it's a majordomo list; there is also of course a non-digest version, but it's a pretty active list. Chuq's note has already been posted there, no real backlash yet, but a bit of disappointment (is how I'd characterize the reaction). I think the list has either some Juno employees on it or else people who know their addresses. It's mainly their users, though, discussing everything from the message size restrictions, loss of the 800 number, and bugs. About the limit: We keep our digests shorter for both our Juno subscribers (about 2.5% of our subscribers) and also Prodigy Classic members, who can receive larger messages, but after about 31K, the messages get converted into awkward "attachments" that must be downloaded. (If they use EMC, things are simplified, and the serious e-mailers do.) This does result in about four digests a day for our more active lists. I hope that will eventually regulate their volume and increase the signal-to-noise ratio for those over-active lists (maybe five out of our 150 lists). Bonnie Scott Prodigy, Inc. > Todd Day writes: > > Personally, I would say that Juno is "punishing" their users with such a > > ridiculously low e-mail size. > It does seem sort of arbitrary, when you consider there doesn't seem to > be any limit to the aggragate mail. I cannot in my Juno account receive > a 65K file, but I can let it run for days and build up many many times > that without causing even a ripple to Juno SysAdmin (which phantom > entity may be the unicorn of the net...)... > --- > mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 10 11:47:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA29888 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from prawn.fishy.net (flounder.fishy.net [206.156.56.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA29871 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from sturgeon.fishy.net (sturgeon.fishy.net [172.16.1.3]) by prawn.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA78322 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:54 -0500 Received: (from bonnie@localhost) by sturgeon.fishy.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA107724 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:53 -0500 From: Bonnie Scott Message-Id: <199703101942.OAA107724@sturgeon.fishy.net> Subject: Heads up for "sensual-asia" spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:42:52 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (I hope this isn't a troll designed to make me look gullible, but...) I should send this to the spam lists as well, but I thought a warning was appropriate here because this luser seems to be targetting mailing lists. Bonnie > Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:17:36 -0500 > To: majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com > From: "KasKa Co." > Subject: Making Money For Life Time > Owener: > > We are new in mail list area. The massage we are trying to post as the > follows: > > 1. Check out > > http://www.sensual-asia.com/ > > (Adult only) looking for money making plan. > > 2. Forward this mail to your friends. > > Thanks! > > Simon > > > > Please let me know how to do and if you can do that? > > Thanks again! > > Simon > > > At 05:49 AM 3/10/97 -0500, you wrote: > >-- > > > >>>>> 1. Check out > >**** Command '1.' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.sensual-asia.com/ > >**** Command 'http://www.sensual-asia.com/' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> (Adult only) looking for money making plan. > >**** Command '(adult' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. Forward this mail to all of your friends. > >**** Command '2.' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks! > >**** Command 'thanks!' not recognized. > >>>>> > >>>>> Simon > >**** Command 'simon' not recognized. > >>>>> > >**** No valid commands found. > >**** Commands must be in message BODY, not in HEADER. > > > >**** Help for majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com: > > > >This is Brent Chapman's "Majordomo" mailing list manager, version 1.93. > > > >In the description below items contained in []'s are optional. When > >providing the item, do not include the []'s around it. > > > >It understands the following commands: > > > > subscribe [] [
] > > Subscribe yourself (or
if specified) to the named . > > > > unsubscribe [] [
] > > Unsubscribe yourself (or
if specified) from the named . > > > > info [] > > Retrieve the general introductory information for the named . > > > > lists > > Show the lists served by this Majordomo server. > > > > help > > Retrieve this message. > > > > end > > Stop processing commands (useful if your mailer adds a signature). > > > >Commands should be sent in the body of an email message to > >"majordomo@listserv.prodigy.com"or to "-request@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > >The parameter is only optional if the message is sent to an address > >of the form "-request@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > > > >Commands in the "Subject:" line NOT processed. > > > >If you have any questions or problems, please contact > >"majordomo-owner@listserv.prodigy.com". > > > > > > > > From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 00:32:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA19188 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from NS1.Content.Net (NS1.Content.Net [206.253.232.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id AAA19181 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 00:30:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nomi.knowledgetech.com (mh-15.rust.net [205.199.80.115]) by NS1.Content.Net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id DAA14791 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:38:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> X-Sender: byxbe@knowledgetech.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:36:29 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Thom Byxbe Subject: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) ----- Thom Byxbe byxbe@Knowledgetech.com President info@Knowledgetech.com Knowledge Technologies, Inc. http://Knowledgetech.com Voice - 810.643.9306 Fax - 810.637.3051 .................................................................... .................................................................... "Successful People Do What Unsuccessful People Won't" .................................................................... .................................................................... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 03:02:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id CAA25164 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from kparker.nai.net (kparker.nai.net [208.133.166.213]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id CAA25148 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (admin@localhost) by kparker.nai.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA09347; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:10:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:10:51 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Parker To: Thom Byxbe cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thom, On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Thom Byxbe wrote: > Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > > They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) I just got through to them all right. I get occasional glitches, lasting anywhere from one bounce to, say, an hour, where certain domain groups seem to be unavailable, and any E-Mail to them will bounce. Then, everything's back in order again. I know better than to take it seriously when I get bounces saying, for example, that the domains compuserve.com, delphi.com, or netcom.com are not found (and I've seen all three, occasionally). Wouldn't something like this happen if one of the "root" internet name servers crashed? Also, could this happen to just you if your own internet service provider's name server crashed? Till later, Ken Parker From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 03:47:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id DAA28555 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id DAA28538 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2A VAX) id 3; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:51:07 PST Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 03:51:03 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: admin@kparker.nai.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009B1157.E7EA2694.3@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"admin@kparker.nai.net" "Ken Parker" 11-MAR-1997 03:10:05.78 > Subj: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found > Thom, > > On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, Thom Byxbe wrote: > > > Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > > > > They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) > > I just got through to them all right. > > I get occasional glitches, lasting anywhere from one bounce to, > say, an hour, where certain domain groups seem to be unavailable, > and any E-Mail to them will bounce. Then, everything's back in > order again. > > I know better than to take it seriously when I get bounces > saying, for example, that the domains compuserve.com, delphi.com, > or netcom.com are not found (and I've seen all three, occasionally). > > Wouldn't something like this happen if one of the "root" > internet name servers crashed? Also, could this happen to Probably not, and that's because there are several of them. (I forget the exact number at the moment; they are experimenting with some new ones.) More than likely, it's either a massive root server corruption, which should really not happen anymore since the newer versions of bind (named) have some intelligence built in to screen out corruption, or possibly that the end domain's DNS is fluxed up, which is the more likely cause. > just you if your own internet service provider's name server > crashed? > That's why I have a secondary entry for a server at work that I know to be sane, because I administer it. Now, if it's down, or the route it down, well, you're SBT'ed... > Till later, > > Ken Parker > -HWM From owner-list-managers-outgoing Tue Mar 11 08:17:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id IAA13300 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id IAA13272 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:18 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970311033629.00b30d60@knowledgetech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:04 -0500 To: Thom Byxbe From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 03:36 -0500 3/11/97, Thom Byxbe said: >Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > >They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > >Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) Sounds like an intermittent DNS problem (not to be confused with an intermittent DSN problem, though the former can lead to the latter ;-). My DNS returned an IP # of 204.7.246.134, and I just had the following conversation with their server: >220 geocities.com ESMTP GeoCities Sendmail 8.7.5/8.7.3; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:16:3 >0 -0800 (PST) >quit >221 geocities.com closing connection ... so it's up and running. - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Wed Mar 12 12:04:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id LAA11581 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id LAA11552 for ; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 11:28:40 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Clueless spam artist of the week... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --- begin forwarded text From: LOVEALLIE@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:35:58 -0500 (EST) To: BRENT@greatcircle.com Subject: LIST QUESTION IF POSSIBLE, COULD YOU SEND ME A LIST OF PEOPLE SO THAT I COULD ADD THEM TO MY LIST? I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. ZACH --- end forwarded text -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates,Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 13 15:11:24 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA00187 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from outlawnet.com (outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA29940 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [163.185.20.232] ([163.185.20.232]) by outlawnet.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00854 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:59:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:06:25 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Gary Bickford Subject: "loops back to myself" error Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks I hope this isn't too much of a dummy question, but trying to send to a Solaris machine, I get back an error "Local configuration error: mail loops back to myself" This is true for all mail to at least one user on that machine. I don't know about other users. It's a newly installed user - can the user fix this, or is it a system-level problem? In either case, how is it usually fixed? Thanks for any help you can provide. Below is the actual text of the error, with the actual domain deleted. GB >The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 >from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself >554 ... Local configuration error From owner-list-managers-outgoing Thu Mar 13 15:56:02 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id PAA05667 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.arl.mil (colossus.arl.mil [131.218.204.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id PAA05560 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [131.218.204.98] by colossus.arl.mil with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:40:50 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 3.0 for Cray Y-MP Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:40:41 -0500 To: Gary Bickford From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: "loops back to myself" error Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 17:06 -0600 3/13/97, Gary Bickford said: >I hope this isn't too much of a dummy question, but trying to send to a >Solaris machine, I get back an error "Local configuration error: mail loops >back to myself" This is true for all mail to at least one user on that >machine. I don't know about other users. > >It's a newly installed user - can the user fix this, or is it a >system-level problem? In either case, how is it usually fixed? Depends on the user -- if he's the net admin, he can probably fix it. ;-) Typically, though, it's not a user-induced problem (or we'd be seeing a LOT more of this sort of thing). The fix is usually to mail postmaster@ (often, the reporting server does this, itself -- check the CC on the DSN it sent you) and apprise him of the problem. He will have to make the necessary repair, which is usually to a .forward (this is where the user comes in, but most users these days aren't working from Unix prompts, thank God) or an MX record that has been misconfigured. There are other causes, too. I've seen mailers aliased to themselves, and other truly charming gymnastics that underscore the fact that net admins are often just users who got promoted. ;-) >>The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 >>from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] >> >> ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- >> (unrecoverable error) >> >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself >>554 ... Local configuration error BTW, SmartBounce processes these errors as soft bounces, and will remove the offending address from your list after it has bounced beyond your soft-bounce threshold. (For the unaware, SmartBounce is a mail-bounce processing package that I mentioned here about a month ago; it is now nearing its first full release. For details, see .sig.) - Vince Sabio orionsoft@telephonet.com -- If you run a mailing list and are tired of manually processing mail bounces, then you probably need SmartBounce. For more information, send a blank email to . -- Because The Only GOOD Spammer is a DEAD Spammer From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 04:40:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id EAA12332 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 04:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay1.shore.net (relay1.shore.net [192.233.85.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id EAA12301 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 04:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from jane.smoe.org (jeffw@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id HAA21829 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA29688; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:27 -0500 Message-ID: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:33:26 -0500 From: jeffw@smoe.org (Jeff Wasilko) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Heads-up: list loop @ utk.edu X-Mailer: Mutt 0.59.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For some reason, the postmaster at utkux.utcc.utk.edu is resending mail from one of my mailing lists BACK to the mailing list. If you have any subscribers from the domain, you might want to filter out mail from that domain until they get their act together. They're attaching this footer to the resent mail: ############################# Notice: This message was found in a dead-letter box and appears to be for you. If you have already gotten a copy of this message, we beg your tolerance. The Unix Systems Group Here's a full copy of their brain-damage: -----Forwarded message from jchance@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (John F Chance)----- Return-Path: Received: from localhost by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28862; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:43 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:37 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28846; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:32 -0500 Received: from utkux.utcc.utk.edu by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA28842; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:22 -0500 Received: by utkux.utcc.utk.edu (5.x/2.8s-UTK.UTCC) id AA23306; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 06:29:08 -0500 Received: from relay1.shore.net by utkux.utcc.utk.edu (5.x/2.8s-UTK.UTCC) id AA16284; Wed, 12 Mar 1997 03:29:42 -0500 Received: from jane.smoe.org (daemon@smoe.org [204.167.97.154]) by relay1.shore.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA28363; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06622; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:43:01 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:40 -0500 Received: by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06494; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:34 -0500 Received: from bayflash.stpt.usf.edu by jane.smoe.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA06490; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:34:21 -0500 Received: from default (ppp12.stpt.usf.edu [131.247.146.211]) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.8.3/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA26471 for ; Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:33:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <332587E3.722A@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu> Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:27:15 -0500 From: John F Chance Reply-To: jchance@bayflash.stpt.usf.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: jewel@smoe.org Subject: NJC:Surprising Wit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-jewel@smoe.org Precedence: bulk Okay, when I heard jewel was going to be chatting on AOL I asked a classmate of mine if there was any way to get on without being on AOL. I am somewhat new to all this stuff and he is very knowledgable about these types of things. While he is very intelligent he never seemed to be the type of person to pull something over on someone(like me). Well, he showed me what to do (or at least I thought he did) and I mailed it to the list. When eight o'clock rolled around I realized what he did. So, if you read the message I am speaking of and realize it is wrong, you know why. Unfortunate victim of surprising wit John Chance ############################# Notice: This message was found in a dead-letter box and appears to be for you. If you have already gotten a copy of this message, we beg your tolerance. The Unix Systems Group -----End of forwarded message----- From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 05:10:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id FAA14415 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from java.aboard.co.uk (java.aboard.co.uk [194.73.51.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA14408 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from nick@localhost) by java.aboard.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA07866; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:04:55 GMT Message-ID: <19970314130455.58160@amulation.co.uk> Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:04:55 +0000 From: Nick Perry To: Jeff Wasilko Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Heads-up: list loop @ utk.edu References: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1e In-Reply-To: <19970314073326.CP25133@smoe.org>; from Jeff Wasilko on Mar 03, 1997 at 07:33:26AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 03, 1997 at 07:33:26AM -0500, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > For some reason, the postmaster at utkux.utcc.utk.edu is > resending mail from one of my mailing lists BACK to the mailing > list. If you have any subscribers from the domain, you might want > to filter out mail from that domain until they get their act > together. > > They're attaching this footer to the resent mail: Hmmm, I got some of those too. Although their ancient version of sendmail was not recording envelope recipients in the Received: headers - you'd have at least thought they'd be sensible enough to try and determine the difference between outgoing and incoming messages :-( Nick -- Nick Perry | Home / Recreation | Work - AboarD Boats & Yachts ____________ | LONDON SW1, UK | LONDON SW10 0TB UK Internet, | http://www.amulation.co.uk | http://www.aboard.co.uk Musicals, | nick@amulation.co.uk | np@aboard.co.uk Theatre, ----------------------------------------------------------- Coffee, Tea, Multimedia, Macs, Photography, Print Publishing, etc, etc.. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 22:40:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00273 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00266 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01734 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:38:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315064156.006d8da0@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:41:56 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: JUNO problems Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:59 PM 3/10/97 -0500, Bonnie wrote: > >Just FYI, there is a list where you can discuss Juno to your heart's content: > >juno_accmail-digest@world.std.com > >I believe it's a majordomo list; there is also of course a non-digest version, >but it's a pretty active list. Yes, it is a Majordomo. I'd categorize it as a medium output list. >Chuq's note has already been posted there, no real backlash yet, but a >bit of disappointment (is how I'd characterize the reaction). I think the >list has either some Juno employees on it or else people who know their >addresses. It's mainly their users, though, discussing everything from >the message size restrictions, loss of the 800 number, and bugs. Tsk, tsk. I betcha Chuq's ears were burning. You shoulda heard the nasty things they said about him on the Juno_accamil List. Ole Chuq even tried to post to the List, but I hear that mean list owner don't allow no one to post to his list, lest 'n they be subscribers. Ole Chuq just wasted bandwith and caused a bounce to be had. >About the limit: >We keep our digests shorter for both our Juno subscribers (about 2.5% of >our subscribers)... Thank you. It's list owners like yourself that give the Internet a good name. >...and also Prodigy Classic members, who can receive larger messages, but >after about 31K, the messages get converted into awkward "attachments" that >must be downloaded. (If they use EMC, things are simplified, and the serious >e-mailers do.) This does result in about four digests a day for >our more active lists. I hope that will eventually regulate their volume and >increase the signal-to-noise ratio for those over-active lists (maybe five >out of our 150 lists). The point I hope you are making, is that a list owner should never be so rigid as to not bend to the needs of their subscribers -- all of them without selective discrimination. Frankly, any list owner that goes nuts over a few bounces, should not be in the business. Bounces should be treated as puzzles, not daemons...er...demons. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 22:55:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00646 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00636 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA01931 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:48:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315065208.006e1c30@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:52:08 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: Clueless spam artist of the week... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:28 AM 3/12/97 -0800, Brent forwarded a budding entrepreneur: >--- begin forwarded text > > >From: LOVEALLIE@aol.com >Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:35:58 -0500 (EST) >To: BRENT@greatcircle.com >Subject: LIST QUESTION > >IF POSSIBLE, COULD YOU SEND ME A LIST OF PEOPLE SO THAT I COULD ADD THEM TO >MY LIST? I WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE IT. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. >ZACH > >--- end forwarded text Surely, you referred the young man to L-Soft. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Fri Mar 14 23:10:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA00985 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tgn2.tgn.net (tgn.net [205.241.85.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id WAA00973 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 22:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialin.tgn.net ([205.241.85.95]) by tgn2.tgn.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02110 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:57:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970315070144.006e24a0@tgn.net> X-Sender: ashandrr@tgn.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 01:01:44 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Alan S. Harrell" Subject: Re: Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:36 AM 3/11/97 -0500, Thom wrote: >Is anybody else having trouble with geocities.com? > >They have been bouncing everything... Is it just me/ > > >Host unknown (Name server: mail.geocities.com.: host not found) If you have subscribers with the address of "subscriber@mail.geocities.com" bouncing on you, or any other geocities host name, change their subscription address to "subscriber@geocities.com" This was happening to a list owner for a mailing list I used to distribute and when we dropped the host portion, the bounces ceased. Alan ASHandRR@TGN.net From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 15 18:10:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id RAA05070 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id RAA05063 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:59:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA00774 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:58:16 -0800 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA13674; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:58:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199703160158.AA13674@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Digest sizes In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970309034649.006de598@tgn.net> Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 17:58:12 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan wrote: > > Why can't you simply do as I do and configure your digest to a > maximum of 55K or smaller? A year or two ago, I surveyed my digest subscribers regarding digest size limits and whether they would prefer a limit and several digests a day or no limit and one-a-day. The vast majority preferred no limit and one-a-day. There was *very* strong resistance to limits below about 50K. So, I set a limit of 50K but will not go lower. Lower limits than that would be selectively tailoring my list list to the needs of those who use crippled ISPs and annoy the overwhelming majority of readers to my list. > you. The community of Juno users have became a very powerful force > and is increasingly demanding more and more attention. One of the things I tell my list members is to keep in mind that no one owes you anything just because you are both on the internet. If someone gives you something for free, be thankful. > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. This is > especially true of many Juno users. Castigating them for what is > of little choice to them is contemptuous and haughty. Hardly > the spirit of sharing that the Internet was meant to be. And there are people who do not have the capacity to be on the internet at all. I assume you are careful not to punish them for this and offer to mail (for free) a paper copy of your list to anyone that asks for it. Afterall, millions of people do not have internet access, it is they who have clout, not you. Snort. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sat Mar 15 22:10:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id WAA01698 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id WAA01691 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa17859; 15 Mar 97 22:00 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:42:42 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digest sizes From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Sat, 15 Mar 97 21:36:36 PST In-Reply-To: <199703160158.AA13674@jive.rahul.net> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick writes: > Alan wrote: > > There are many Internet and Online users in this world that do > > not have a plethora of choices for Internet access. > And there are people who do not have the capacity to be on the > internet at all. I assume you are careful not to punish them for this > and offer to mail (for free) a paper copy of your list to anyone that > asks for it. Afterall, millions of people do not have internet > access, it is they who have clout, not you. I love this Pity-The-Poor-Innocents line. It reminds me of the old Monty Python bit, the Four Yorkshiremen. Once Naomi Wolf was confronted by an ardent crazed egalitarian during a booksigning and speech thusly: `Why do you write books? Don't you know there are women who can't read?' She Had The Clout, you see. The reply: Why do you talk to me? Don't you know there are women who are deaf? mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "We are writers seeking readers seeking stories..." mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:10:58 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08535 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08525 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu (delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.61]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id LAA21814 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id OAA04867; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:44:22 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:44:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199703091944.OAA04867@delysid.gnu.ai.mit.edu> From: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu (Leonard H. Tower Jr.) To: today@di.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (today@di.com) Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: message size limits Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Todd Day Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:22:17 -0800 Juno doesn't allow e-mail over 61k. Message size limits aren't a feature just of Juno. There are sites, mostly outside the US that limit mail to 25k. 50k seems to be common these days. I would set up 2 digest lists. One with your current policy, and one that did a digest every 25k or 50k. best -len From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:14:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08451 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08433 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id SAA16668 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (paulh@localhost) by hamjudo.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id VAA29489; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:57:30 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:57:29 -0400 (EDTO) From: Paul Haas Reply-To: paulh@hamjudo.com To: Brian cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Brian wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find an email mailing list in which I can post > a buy/sell advertisement? On my lists, it doesn't matter if the posting is an advertizement or not, the important issue is whether it is on topic or not. However, off topic advertizements are very bad. Some lists do not tolerate advertisements at all. For example, don't post an ad to list-managers, even for list management software. There just too many email packages available to have ads and discussions about each one. -- paulh@hamjudo.com http://www.hamjudo.com I've made the big time, Dave Barry made fun of my web page. From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:19:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08389 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08377 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from users.mail.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id SAA29796 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by users.mail.n.ml.org (8.8.5) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:15:36 -0500 (EST) From: n To: Vince Sabio cc: Gary Bickford , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "loops back to myself" error In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 13 Mar 1997, Vince Sabio wrote: /* snip */ :) >>The original message was received at Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:34:48 -0600 :) >>from outlawnet.com [204.245.248.202] :) >> :) >> ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- :) >> (unrecoverable error) :) >> :) >> ----- Transcript of session follows ----- :) >>553 connect. config error: mail loops back to myself :) >>554 ... Local configuration error This smells suspiciously like a misconfigured /etc/sendmail.cf file, where the machine mail.foo.com is not listed as a site that sendmail should treat as local You should already have a Cwlocalhost line in /etc/sendmail.cf; simply add Cwmail.foo.com under/above[/anywhere really] the localhost line and everything should work properly. /* snip */ -- Daniel Reed Well, to be frank, I'd have to change my name... From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:25:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA07997 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id XAA07977 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel6.mindspring.com (camel6.mindspring.com [204.180.128.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with ESMTP id FAA03079 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:33:13 -0800 (PST) From: bh@digital.net Received: from unknown (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by camel6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24455; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:39:09 -0500 (EST) To: "Alan S. Harrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ads in mailing lists Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:37:46 GMT Reply-To: bh@digital.net Message-ID: <33240e28.29394211@mail.mindspring.com> References: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970310132200.006afd2c@tgn.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:22:00 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:11 PM 3/8/97 -0800, Kynn wrote: > >>Hello, Alan's brain, is this thing on? Not all "advertisements" >>are spam, and it would be perfectly legitimate for someone to >>run a mailing list equivalent of the various *.forsale.*=20 >>Usenet groups, as long as everyone on the list _wanted_ to be >>there. > > Pejorative aside, spam is any unwanted, unsolicited advertisement, > and largely in the eye of the be-getter. I especially do not want=20 > ads on my mailing lists. If you allow them on yours, so be it. That is the policy of your list. There may be lists that do allow those = kinds of messages as a matter of course. At least he was nice enough to post a message asking if there were any such lists instead of just picking one = and posting to it. before posting an ad, he wanted to make sure that it was = not unwelcome - in other words he wanted to make sure he didn't spam. i think that kind of action should be encouraged, not flamed as you did. Brian From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:26:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08281 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08243 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hrothgar.gw.com (hrothgar.gw.com [204.80.150.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id JAA09290; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hrothgar.gw.com (jpeek@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hrothgar.gw.com (8.8.4/8.7.Alpha.4/1.34.kim) with ESMTP id MAA18734; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:57:52 -0500 (EST) From: Jerry Peek X-Face: 4'>h,#cS;REmrM.0o;MLO(rQ\6!tC3|K"`%_&L/5r'?`z?YFA'^?O_2;uhDj}[Ezd'KN;UN ]JY>}7NI!3#)pemuo^HLsy?e&d;~eMDvq{tVqg_JaK.QQ>aXK,)ruQhThx8,.X|_@Foa75CW:E[=@U@5dA'(H`V>Vm{d[)S8AcVpGs1Jw,p6w{LF c?o(}7$@3ani]G[joNpQsJ%^kZhox%7\gVhT%uu|8"WXlT=U1:opS-:9hL{kZgxhGvUf?bJ4E Reply-to: Jerry Peek X-Mailer: MH 6.8.4 To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, ftpmail-workers@doc.ic.ac.uk Subject: Reviewers needed for MIIS book chapters Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 09:57:51 -0800 Message-ID: <18685.857757471@hrothgar.gw.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The second edition of O'Reilly's "Managing Internet Information Services" is coming soon. Like the first edition, it has a section about email services: two chapters cover mailing lists in general, two cover Majordomo 1.94.1, and one is about ftpmail. I'm looking for reviewers who'll read the draft section thoroughly and give me detailed feedback. I'd like to get a mix of experts and newbies. I especially need a couple of reviewers who will *do* the installation instructions (not just read them and say "hmm, that seems okay"). If you can help, please send me email. Tell me about your background and your experience with email services. The review starts mid-March. Thanks (from me and the book's future readers)! Reviewers' work is always a big help; it makes the book clearer for other readers. -- Jerry Peek, jpeek@jpeek.com, http://www.jpeek.com/~jpeek/ Substitute "damn" every time you're inclined to write "very"; your editor will delete it and the writing will be just as it should be. --Mark Twain From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:31:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id AAA08508 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id AAA08468 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 00:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cinna.ultra.net (cinna.ultra.net [199.232.56.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Miles-960830-1) with ESMTP id SAA20142 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from voyager (d115.dial-1.met.ma.ultra.net [209.6.4.115]) by cinna.ultra.net (8.8.5/ult1.04) with SMTP id VAA02740; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 21:12:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970308021232.0038e784@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 21:12:32 -0500 To: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:10 PM 3/7/97 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [note about terminating service to 77 juno.com users because he can't get juno.com to respond/cooperate re behavior of 3 of their users] I think you're overreacting. You're trying to enlist others in a boycott/battle in which they have probably no interest. You are punishing 77 innocent people, plus the uncountable others who enjoy conversing with them, because of your personal problems dealing with a slow-to-act ISP. No, you are *forcing* them to choose. Support my boycott, or be gone! How much pressure do you expect to put on juno.com by forcing 77 people off your list for nothing they did? Those 77 aren't going to be mad at juno; they're going to be mad at *you*. Do you know how much fun it is to change ISP's, mailing addresses, and all that? How many will do this just for the "privilege" of getting back on your list(s)? >Please don't complain to us -- it won't help, and the situation won't >change until we're convinced juno.com DOES, in fact, police its users. *NOBODY* wants an ISP that "polices" their mail for content. If nothing else, the cost would be prohibitive. The best you can hope for is after-the-fact action. Even then, if your complaint was the *only* one, you shouldn't expect much -- from *ANY* ISP (especially one you are not a customer of). >Unfortunately, to date, all they've proven is that they won't. When >that changes, we'll re-evaluate the situation. Until then, all we can >do is encourage you to find an ISP that cares about its reputation and >its users. > >My apologies for the inconvenience I know this will cause you, but the >situation leaves us no choice. Bull. You could have left your 77 well-behaved subscribers there, and just (a) reject posts from the 3 offenders; and/or (b) rejected new subscribers from juno.com. You had plenty of choices. I think your action was way overboard. At least, from what you've described. Did anyone other than yourself complain to juno? Stan From owner-list-managers-outgoing Sun Mar 16 00:31:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id XAA08049 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (brent@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) id XAA08041 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 23:59:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id GAA12766 for ; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 06:18:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA18370; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 08:22:37 -0600 Message-Id: <199703091422.IAA18370@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: listmom-talk@skyweyr.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: FYI: juno.com kicked off of my sites. In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Mar 1997 15:10:30 PST." Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 08:23:43 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, No matter what others may think of your actions, I'd say you are doing the right thing. You've attempted to contact the management about the problem and gotten nowhere. It now time to turn the problem over to those that have a better chance of getting results from them, their customers. Juno may be a large system, but if they want to stay that way, they need to keep the customers happy. The old saying of 1 angry customer having more impact than 10 happy ones is still true. It was a few years ago that I did the same thing for technical problems with aol.com. I couldn't seem to get their attention no matter how hard I tried. Finally, as a matter of last resort I posted a message similiar to yours to the list giving a warning of 2 weeks time that I was going to terminate all aol members in my lists. Being a technical list, I wanted to give people a chance to continue to get the list and not miss things they may find critical. I gave the list members a few suggested options. First, contact aol management and send them the included problem description and demand a fix. Second, move to a better (and at the time it was easy) provider. Third, is a combination of the above 2. Tell aol why your leaving. This should have the most impact. Fourth, do without the list. It appears that what I couldn't do as an outsider, their customers were able to do rather quickly. The next morning I was contacted by a aol tech manager/vp asking for exact details of the problem. How serious it was, etc. Imagine the shock that someone there actually cared AND had a clue. He actually had some ideas as to the solution to the problem and what needed to be done. This resulted in another rather formal email response from aol asking me not to do the cut in 2 weeks. For some reason they actually needed to pass the message through their legal dept for approval so as to not be promising anything they couldn't deliver. They were actually working on the problem, but it was going to take about a month to deploy. The result is that the actions taken did actually attract attention in management where it was needed. A fix was installed and things got dramaticly better. They still had a long way to go, but the were moving in the right direction. I'm sure that aol would have made the fixes that were needed to reduce the problems that I was seeing at some point in time, but I was fed up then. All of a sudden this problem had a priority level inside the company because their customers knew about it and were about to leave. Also, a much wider audience knew of the problem and if any were asked for a recommendation, aol was not going to be in the list. I think that many people don't realize how much time and effort it takes to run a list. At that time, by getting rid of the problems being caused by 1 provider, I was able to reduce the time I spent by about 50%. --Gene From owner-list-managers-outgoing Mon Mar 17 07:41:21 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970308-1) id HAA15823 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from webster.m-w.com ([206.98.43.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970308-1) with SMTP id HAA15775 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 07:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA02440; Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:21:18 EST Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 10:21:18 EST From: awest@webster.m-w.com (Amy West) Message-Id: <9703171521.AA02440@m-w.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: hosting services Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone point me to some list hosting services Web pages? I've already got info about one, lyris, and I like to look