From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 04:44:59 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA06104; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sky.net (solar.sky.net [198.70.175.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id DAA04441 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 03:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sky.net.sky.net (ip92.kc.sky.net [206.230.165.92]) by sky.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA19863; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 05:23:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971001051937.00e17cc8@solar.sky.net> X-Sender: price@solar.sky.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 05:19:37 -0500 To: "Nathan J. Mehl" From: Paul Allen Rice Subject: Re: Today's award for "Most Obfuscated Bounce Message" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199709301951.PAA18099@horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 03:51 PM 9/30/97 -0400, the following was submitted for consideration by Nathan J. Mehl: > >...goes without question to the lovely folks over at webtv.net: > >> ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- >> <"numberone?user-id=2969781&subscriber-id=2969718&category=normal"@postoffic e.alma.webtv.net> > >Sheesh. > >-n Sort of reminds me of the following sub announcement majordomo sent me earlier this summer... PTS#u#CBH#u#D#c#PTS#u#CBH#u#D.PTS#u#CBH#u#P#c#DelaiR@health.qld.gov.au That's one helluva long address. I'd hate to type it in everytime. I verified it with the person who had it. She's a helth official in, if I remember right, Queensgate, Australia. In any event, the postmaster down there apparantly dishes these out to everyone. Shortly after this was received, I received a note from the person indicating it would change to a most human readably style. Oh well... Paul ------------------------------------------------------------ (o)(o) Paul Rice > Listowner: CircleJoke and Underground Mailling Lists \/ mailto:PaulRice@Broadcast.net ------------------------------------------------------------ "We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true." --Robert Wilensky, University of California ------------------------------------------------------------ Support the anti-Spam amendment, go to http://www.cauce.org From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 07:45:48 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA11602; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA11500 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA32057; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:23 -0700 From: Berg Received: by eskimo.com (8.8.7) id HAA16170; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710011418.HAA16170@eskimo.com> To: adamb@tezcat.com Subject: Re: AOL upgrade Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wonder...would CCing a complaint about something illegal to the relevant federal agency cause AOL to react quicker...? ;) From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 15:14:43 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA12143; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id OAA11940 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LunaCity.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA26359 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:33:03 -0700 Received: by LunaCity.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 01 Oct 97 14:28:48 PDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. From: alyson l abramowitz Message-Id: Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 14:23:52 PDT In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19970930210940.008f56d0@mail.wco.com> Organization: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk AOL as a service holds no personal interest for me but I've got to say that my experience with them in the past year is that they are probably the most responsive site to closing down spam relatively quickly. It's rarely a day that goes by when I don't send them a new spam. And they do respond and shut down the users who do so. This is more than I can say for most of the other large services. They have less spam'ers coming though but they rarely do anything about them. So I wonder why they are responsive to me but not some of the rest of you folks? In any case, I can tell you that abuse@aol.com appears to be looked at and handled regularly from my experience. Best, Alyson From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 15:44:51 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA25289; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA25191 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA22102; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710012240.PAA22102@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: berg@eskimo.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <199710011418.HAA16170@eskimo.com> (message from Berg on Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:19 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: AOL upgrade Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Berg Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:18:19 -0700 (PDT) I wonder...would CCing a complaint about something illegal to the relevant federal agency cause AOL to react quicker...? ;) IMHO you should only send complaints to a federal agency if you feel that is the appropriate way to deal with the problem of the person you are complaining about. CC'ing them to "threaten" or hold a whip over AOL or any other place that isn't responding to your complaint fast enough is not productive. In the case of death threats or other messages where you are in fear of your life or personal safety, by all means involve as many agencies and orgs as you need. But not as a tool for speeding up response in an unrelated org for a non-emergency. I realize you were probably kidding but I wouldn't want anyone else to misread your statement and take it seriously. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 17:29:54 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA16157; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netguide.com (nexus.netguide.com [199.108.80.129]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id RAA16018 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from delundel.netguide.com by netguide.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA12518; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:23:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3432EA2B.71B8@netguide.com> Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:26:19 -0700 From: David Lundell Reply-To: delundel@netguide.com Organization: CMP Media, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Subscription Verification Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all- I currently coordinate the list management of 11 mailing lists with a total of 350,000+ subscribers. The lists are opt-in periodic newsletters (not discussion lists). Most of our subscriptions come to us via a Web interface on our site. Currently, we do not verify subscriptions. We recently had an event where someone was subscribed to all of our mailing lists, along with a bunch of lists produced by other organizations -- a kind of mail bombing attack most of you are probably somewhat familiar with. To make a long story short, the event is forcing us to evaluate the verification issue. I'd love feedback from you all regarding how you have set up your lists, and your thoughts on the following issues. First and foremost, do you feel, from an ethical standpoint, that mailing list administrators should always verify a user before subscribing that user? I'd also love to hear your thoughts on whether, legally, the victim of such an attack has grounds for recourse against a list provider. Also, does anyone verify unsubscribes too? If so, what are the merits of that? Lastly, if any of you have switched from no verification at all to some type of verification, did you notice a slow-down in the growth of your lists? Forgive me if I'm raising an issue that has been discussed here -- I've only been on this list for a couple months. All feedback and pointers to information sources are very welcome. Thanks! David Lundell Producer, E-mail Products CMPnet: http://www.cmpnet.com Free newsletters on technology and the Internet at: http://www.techweb.com/delivery/delivery.html From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 18:29:35 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA28264; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA28175 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id UAA27630 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:23:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710020123.UAA27630@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Subscription Verification Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 20:23:49 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10/1/97 7:26 PM CDT, David Lundell wrote... >First and foremost, do you feel, from an ethical standpoint, that >mailing list administrators should always verify a user before >subscribing that user? Most list owners will say yes. On an ethical standpoint, I tend to agree. With that said, most of my lists do not require confirmation to subscribe. This is primarily because the majority of my lists are geared towards very non-technical people who have trouble understanding the concept of verification. So, unless I have a problem, I leave verification off. One one list, I had to turn it on because I started getting bogus subscriptions. All my other public lists remain with confirmation off, and I haven't had any problems. >I'd also love to hear your thoughts on whether, legally, the victim of >such an attack has grounds for recourse against a list provider. Keep in mind the current state of legal affairs when it comes to the net. Courts are only barely aware that the Internet exists, and very little legal ground has been covered. While I suppose a case could be made for negligence against the list host, I wouldn't worry about it. Certainly not until after laws are in place to guard against UCE. >Also, does anyone verify unsubscribes too? If so, what are the merits of >that? I don't require confirmation for unsubscribe commands. Personally, I find it extremely annoying when I'm trying to get off a list and I have to confirm it. Faking a signoff request is a lot different than faking a signon request. It's not a way to spam someone for obvious reasons, so it probably doesn't have much. A minor annoyance, at best, and the person can always re-subscribe themself. >Lastly, if any of you have switched from no verification at all to some >type of verification, did you notice a slow-down in the growth of your >lists? Hard to say, since the list for which I turned confirmation on experiences very slow growth anyways. If it dropped from one new subscriber a week to one new subscriber every two weeks, I wouldn't have noticed. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 18:44:23 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01418; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA01172 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id RAA21589; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 17:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dave (dave.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.50]) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca (8.8.7/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA11836; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:59:36 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971001195645.00c3d6f0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 19:56:45 -0500 To: delundel@netguide.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Subscription Verification In-Reply-To: <3432EA2B.71B8@netguide.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:26 PM 10/1/97 -0700, David Lundell wrote: >First and foremost, do you feel, from an ethical standpoint, that >mailing list administrators should always verify a user before >subscribing that user? Do you mean manually, or via automated mechanisms in the MLM software? I find that the automated verification mechanism in Majordomo (for example) handles that very well. After suffering numerous prank s*bscriptions earlier this year, they almost dropped to zero after enabling verification. I say "almost", because I've had a few cases where the prankster obtained a NetAddress account, s*bscribed to lists, and then set the account to forward to the victim. Of course, verification won't prevent that. >Lastly, if any of you have switched from no verification at all to some >type of verification, did you notice a slow-down in the growth of your >lists? I don't have any hard numbers to back it up (though I could produce them, if anyone's really interested), but I'd say there's been a very slight slow-down on my lists. I attribute that to the slight difficulty (if you can call it that) of processing the verifications, as it prevents s*bscriptions from those who are completely unable to follow written directions. I do not consider that to be a bad thing, because it helps keep those who are unable to manage their email from repeatedly demonstrating that fact in front of thousands of other people. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From owner-list-managers-list Wed Oct 1 20:44:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA10805; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA10531 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id UAA02852; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 20:51:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710020251.UAA02852@sportsurf.net> X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156] Subject: Fwd: Re: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 23:00:40 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Did you all see this? I was CCed and it didn't hit the list. ..... I think it has some clever ideas. Mark ---- snagged snip comes below. ---- > >For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the > >following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. With our program, we decided to break up the responsibilites and came up with the following different security roles: * server admin: has rights to all lists on the server, can do anything using the web interface or email commands. Doesn't receive any mail from any list. Receives software update notifications from us. * site admin: has rights over all the lists in their "site" (ie: a grouping of lists), similar responsibilities as a server admin. Can change virtual site settings (such as hostname, look & feel, etc). * list admin: can add/delete members, moderate, change FAQs, action phrases, autoresponders & change all list settings. Has no rights to anything but their own list. Members can also have any of the following extra rights, which are single yes/no parameters: * moderator: receives moderated message notifications, and can approve them * owner: receives mail sent to the owner-listname@... address * error mail receiver: has opted to receive notifications of error mail that Lyris has processed * announcer: can send messages to the list, no matter what the moderation settings are * poster: is allowed to send contributions when a list is set to reject non-posters (for example, a magazine with an author pool might use this) This works pretty well for us. However, we do get a lot of requests for a more limited list admin role, where the server administrator could remove specific functions from the list admin's menu. Usually, the server administrator fears that the admin is a danger to themselves, and will tinker with the wrong things, thus screwing up their own list (mucking with the open/closed/private/password security setting, for instance) > To take this one step further, I'm not even happy with the term, "LIST." The > LIST term is one that is getting old, IMHO, but should get dropped in the > next round of changes. Agreed. Several years ago, when we used to sell InfoMagnet (a windows front end to L.) we called them "Email Discussion Groups". However, the term "Discussion Groups" has now been coopted by the Newsgroup folks (that's what DejaNews calls them). And besides, "Discussion Groups" doesn't do justice to announcement lists and moderated-edit lists, which in many cases is what people are more familiar with. Nowadays, we simply call them "email lists" and say that there are several kinds of "email lists", such as "owner-controlled announcement lists", "moderated discussions", "moderated user-contributed announcements", and "open discussions". Recently, a new type has become popular, which we call "DocBots", as in "Document Robots". Surveys, document repositories, and other "email databases" fall into this general category, where there is an active relationship between the user and the list server. PS: I sent this message to the list several days ago, but it never was distributed. If Majordomo suddenly decides to distribute my week-old post, my apologies for sending two -err- now three copies. John jbuckman@shelby.com http://www.shelby.com Developers of *an other* Email List Server end mudged snip ---- From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 00:30:07 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA02844; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id XAA02730 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amys-answers.com ([205.160.203.108]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id FAA02161 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709291247.FAA02161@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from famroom.amys-answers.com by amys-answers.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.2CAEB6A0@amys-answers.com>; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 7:49:11 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:38:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Reply-to: amys@amys-answers.com In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19970925141941.00ee2994@mail.idyllmtn.com> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am now cleaning up hundreds of bounces. All of my list members at Juno are being returned as unknown. This started happening yesterday with *some* of them, but now all of them are being returned. Is anyone else experiencing this? amy From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 00:35:28 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA05225; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id AAA05181 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id SAA23412 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (ip119.an6-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net [38.6.6.119]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01571 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:46:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710010146.SAA01571@germany.it.earthlink.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ray Osborne" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:42:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: list mgmt tools (bounces) Reply-to: tekjobs@themall.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I am interested in utitlity tools to help maintain my mail lists. In particular bounced mail. I don't use a listserv but rather the mail features of Pegasus. Pegasus has some good filtering characterisitics but I have been unable to write a script to remove the email addresses of bounced email from a list. I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that I am unaware of. At the moment I am employing a work at home secretary to keep my databases of email addresses fined tuned. What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that are no longer useful ? If you discussed this already then I would appreciate somebody telling me what date so I can find the archive. Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 00:43:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA05273; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id AAA05228 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from webdreams.com (www.webdreams.com [199.125.85.28]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id WAA03188 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by webdreams.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/29Aug96-0251AM) id AA07391; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:07:17 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:07:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Brock Rozen To: Kynn Bartlett Cc: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com>, cnorman@best.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL upgrade - B.S. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970930213428.00d868e4@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-Id: X-Backup: Disable X-Url: http://www.torah.org/~brozen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > Maybe I'm just weird like that. If David has specifically said to > contact him directly instead of writing to abuse@aol.com, then hey, > it's his choice. (If he hasn't, though, you're probably out of > line in suggesting that as the best way to resolve your problems.) There's a difference between contacting majordomo to unsubscribe from a list and contacting someone about a spam. One can be handled by an automated system, the other cannot. I can sympathize with David, but if he's in charge of taking care of this and abuse@aol.net isn't doing the job -- then I could care frankly whether it bothers him or not, just as long as it doesn't bother me anymore! You see, I can be considerate -- but when other's lack of response begins to affect me, I no longer care for their workload. Their neglect is hurting mine and I won't accept that. Not to say that abuse@aol.net has been bad. They've helped me in many cases -- but I'm just presenting the situation if they were to get to a bad situation. ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@torah.org | http://www.torah.org/~brozen | ----------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 00:45:14 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA03308; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id XAA03300 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luna2.shelby.com (luna.shelby.com [207.105.6.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id TAA07468 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kuno (kuno [207.105.6.156]) by luna2.shelby.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA24718 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:55:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199710010255.TAA24718@luna2.shelby.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:37:38 -0800 Subject: Re: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator In-reply-to: <199709261806.MAA15560@sportsurf.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the > >following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. With Lyris, we decided to break up the responsibilites and came up with the following different security roles: * server admin: has rights to all lists on the server, can do anything using the web interface or email commands. Doesn't receive any mail from any list. Receives software update notifications from us. * site admin: has rights over all the lists in their "site" (ie: a grouping of lists), similar responsibilities as a server admin. Can change virtual site settings (such as hostname, look & feel, etc). * list admin: can add/delete members, moderate, change FAQs, action phrases, autoresponders & change all list settings. Has no rights to anything but their own list. Members can also have any of the following extra rights, which are single yes/no parameters: * moderator: receives moderated message notifications, and can approve them * owner: receives mail sent to the owner-listname@... address * error mail receiver: has opted to receive notifications of error mail that Lyris has processed * announcer: can send messages to the list, no matter what the moderation settings are * poster: is allowed to send contributions when a list is set to reject non-posters (for example, a magazine with an author pool might use this) This works pretty well for us. However, we do get a lot of requests for a more limited list admin role, where the server administrator could remove specific functions from the list admin's menu. Usually, the server administrator fears that the admin is a danger to themselves, and will tinker with the wrong things, thus screwing up their own list (mucking with the open/closed/private/password security setting, for instance) > To take this one step further, I'm not even happy with the term, "LIST." > The LIST term is one that is getting old, IMHO, but should get dropped in > the next round of changes. Agreed. Several years ago, when we used to sell InfoMagnet (a windows front end to LISTSERV) we called them "Email Discussion Groups". However, the term "Discussion Groups" has now been coopted by the Newsgroup folks (that's what DejaNews calls them). And besides, "Discussion Groups" doesn't do justice to announcement lists and moderated-edit lists, which in many cases is what people are more familiar with. Nowadays, we simply call them "email lists" and say that there are several kinds of "email lists", such as "owner-controlled announcement lists", "moderated discussions", "moderated user-contributed announcements", and "open discussions". Recently, a new type has become popular, which we call "DocBots", as in "Document Robots". Surveys, document repositories, and other "email databases" fall into this general category, where there is an active relationship between the user and the list server. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com Developers of Lyris Email List Server From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 01:29:42 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA18052; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:26:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id BAA18010 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 5; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:26:44 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 01:26:43 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: amys@amys-answers.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB25A.B4A7DDB3.5@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"amys@amys-answers.com" 2-OCT-1997 00:33:07.36 > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > CC: > Subj: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:38:35 +0000, "Amy Stinson" said: "Amy Stinson" writes: > I am now cleaning up hundreds of bounces. All of my list members at > Juno are being returned as unknown. This started happening > yesterday with *some* of them, but now all of them are being > returned. Is anyone else experiencing this? > > amy > > Amy, Oh, yes. It started sometime Sunday afternoon, but appears to have been fixed by Monday morning, around 0930, PDT. -HWM From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 03:44:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA23960; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vpm.com ([209.60.152.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id CAA23862 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by vpm.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id CAA22607; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:11:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Stout Message-Id: <199710020911.CAA22607@vpm.com> Subject: Re: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] To: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV (Henry W. Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <009BB25A.B4A7DDB3.5@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> from "Henry W. Miller" at "Oct 2, 97 01:26:43 am" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I tried emailling a friend that has a juno.com account and it is still returning 'User unknown' messages as of 10PM 10/01/97. Mark > > From: MX%"amys@amys-answers.com" 2-OCT-1997 00:33:07.36 > > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > > CC: > > Subj: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] > > > > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:38:35 +0000, "Amy Stinson" said: > "Amy Stinson" writes: > > > I am now cleaning up hundreds of bounces. All of my list members at > > Juno are being returned as unknown. This started happening > > yesterday with *some* of them, but now all of them are being > > returned. Is anyone else experiencing this? > > > > amy > > > > > > > Amy, > > Oh, yes. It started sometime Sunday afternoon, but appears to > have been fixed by Monday morning, around 0930, PDT. > > -HWM > From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 04:30:44 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA27951; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id CAA27800 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX G5.0) id 1; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:40:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:40:07 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: mcs@vpm.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009BB264.F5B41C86.1@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: Re: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"mcs@vpm.com" "Mark Stout" 2-OCT-1997 02:11:03.08 > To: MX%"henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV" > CC: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > Subj: Re: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] > On Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:11:23 -0700 (PDT), Mark Stout said: Mark Stout writes: Mark, > I tried emailling a friend that has a juno.com account and it is still > returning 'User unknown' messages as of 10PM 10/01/97. > > Mark > I hope that this is not too obvious a question, but are you certain that your friend's email address is still valid? Or maybe it's a one-shot failure - I have seen that as well. I would HATE to think that there are hundres, nay thousands of bouced email messages waiting for the right moment at Juno to spring forth and get me. (Yes, it has been one of THOSE weeks...) -HWM > > > > From: MX%"amys@amys-answers.com" 2-OCT-1997 00:33:07.36 > > > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > > > CC: > > > Subj: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] > > > > > > > On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:38:35 +0000, "Amy Stinson" said: > > "Amy Stinson" writes: > > > > > I am now cleaning up hundreds of bounces. All of my list members at > > > Juno are being returned as unknown. This started happening > > > yesterday with *some* of them, but now all of them are being > > > returned. Is anyone else experiencing this? > > > > > > amy > > > > > > > > > > > > Amy, > > > > Oh, yes. It started sometime Sunday afternoon, but appears to > > have been fixed by Monday morning, around 0930, PDT. > > > > -HWM > > > From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 08:25:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26740; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA26717 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01394 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:08:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: List Managers List Subject: re: "death threat" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Will whoever received that please contact me privately? Thanks. Bill ============================================================================= Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149 President, Associated Quality Consultants, Inc. Fax: +1 703 834 8209 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our Online Quality Resources Website and Bookstore at http://www.quality.org ============================================================================= From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 10:16:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA13954; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hardhead.otw.com (hardhead.otw.com [206.97.113.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id KAA13920 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MyShadow.dtor.com (root@modem7.otw.com [206.97.113.17]) by hardhead.otw.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA08243; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:55:48 GMT Received: from MyShadow.dtor.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by MyShadow.dtor.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01097; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:14:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199710021614.MAA01097@MyShadow.dtor.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 05/05/96 To: tekjobs@themall.net cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list mgmt tools (bounces) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:06:30 -0000." <199710021509.IAA19696@italy.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 12:14:27 -0400 From: Hal Wine Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Ray Osborne" () wrote: >How does list software handle bounces ? Just deletes the bounce >warning as it comes back or actually remove the email address from >the master list ? If it removes email addresses of bounced mail then >there must be some code that it is using to do this. If it just >deletes the warning then I do that anyway by filling up a mail folder >with bounced mail and dumping it now and then. Usually, the behaviour is configurable. I set the number of bounces within a time period to determine when it deletes the email address. I need not see any of the bounce messages. And, yes, there is code, but it's somewhat heuristic to catch all the variations. And, mostly they're programmed in something that has very strong regular expression capability (e.g. Perl or Procmail), which I doubt Pegasis has. >This makes me think if there is no standard just convention then it >will make it difficult for any software to actually remove email >addresses of bounced mail. And if there is all this email out there >just bouncing around will it not be slowing down the Internet to some >degree ? No, there's not a lot of email bouncing, because most folks keep their lists clean. If you're not keeping your list clean, then you're contributing to excessive bounce messages. >This is how I overcame this list. But that list is not as crucial as >my Computer Professionals lists and I wanted a better technology way >to solve this problem Then get list software. -- Hal Wine DTOR Consulting From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 12:17:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA27559; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA27467 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id NAA03760 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:42:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710021842.NAA03760@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: list mgmt tools (bounces) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 13:42:52 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/30/97 4:42 PM CDT, Ray Osborne wrote... >I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of >returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that >I am unaware of. At the moment I am employing a work at home secretary >to keep my databases of email addresses fined tuned. Most sites comply with the standard for bounce messages, which is contained in an RFC somewhere (I don't have the number handy). Some, of course, do not. Those are the ones that are typically more difficult to deal with. >What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that >are no longer useful ? An actual mailing list management package. :) Also, I hear that some people like SmartBounce , though I haven't tried it myself. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 13:20:55 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29177; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA29159 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA20398; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021854.LAA20398@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: amys@amys-answers.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <199709291247.FAA02161@honor.greatcircle.com> (amys@amys-answers.com) Subject: Re: Juno Problems[via LSMTP - see www.lsoft.com] Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Amy Stinson" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:38:35 +0000 I am now cleaning up hundreds of bounces. All of my list members at Juno are being returned as unknown. This started happening yesterday with *some* of them, but now all of them are being returned. Is anyone else experiencing this? How very odd... Unfortunately, my ISP's list software won't let me see bounces (it's very annoying) so I checked the roundabout way. I just got an up to date copy of hte list subs and my 7 juno subscribers all look fine (there are #'s in front of the names that tell you if they've been bouncing). No juno subscriber has been removed from the list for bouncing (4 days in a row). Of course, it may not have hit me yet... Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 13:36:15 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA26060; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA26015 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA13946; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021831.LAA13946@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: delundel@netguide.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <3432EA2B.71B8@netguide.com> (message from David Lundell on Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:26:19 -0700) Subject: Re: Subscription Verification Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 17:26:19 -0700 From: David Lundell First and foremost, do you feel, from an ethical standpoint, that mailing list administrators should always verify a user before subscribing that user? No. There are a lot of pluses to verification but I don't think it's the list admin's moral duty to do it. I'd also love to hear your thoughts on whether, legally, the victim of such an attack has grounds for recourse against a list provider. Probably about the same recource someone has against a magazine owner after being the victim of an attack where someone else filled in 100 magazine subscription cards without their knowledge. Though I'm just guessing. Also, does anyone verify unsubscribes too? If so, what are the merits of that? I've thought about it. I only know of one time where the wrong person was unsubscribed. Some jerk unsubbed *me* from my own list. But people already have so much trouble unsubbing (and the motivation to keep trying is very very different from people wanting to join a list) that I won't do it unless unsubbing others becomes a huge problem. Lastly, if any of you have switched from no verification at all to some type of verification, did you notice a slow-down in the growth of your lists? Well I went from a manuelly run list on one ISP to an auto one with verification on another. I had some level of ver on the old list since I wouldn't sub people from third party addresses. But, no, there is no difference. Verifying subs has been a godsend and I highly recommend it for most lists, especially large publically available ones. I went from a handful a month to zero in almost a year accusations of subbing people to the list without their permission. I don't get as many angry unsubs (though there are a few) but that's also because I give minimal help to new subscribers since if I help them too much they will inevidibly post to the list and whine to be unsubbed too (this happened to me with someone who was on the list less than a month and I had made promise he wouldn't do that if I subbed him myself). Yes, I do get a larger workload since some people have trouble with the verfication process, but far more people have trouble with the sub software, despite my detailed directions. Also, now I have had only 2 spams on the entire list ever since moving (from the same person, someone from my ISP who subbed then posted the same ad twice before I was able to catch it and boot him). The feature that disallows posts from non-subscribers is the key here I think, but the verification feature is an extra safeguard against spammers who send out mass subs before sending mass spams. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 13:46:40 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28562; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sportsurf.net (sportsurf.net [192.41.36.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id LAA28383 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id MAA11112; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:48:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199710021848.MAA11112@sportsurf.net> X-Authentication-Warning: sportsurf.net: Host sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156] claimed to be [192.204.56.156] Subject: Fwd: Re: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 14:57:35 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Re: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator That seems to trip on Taboo too. Hi Folks, I was CCed a message, and a rather elegant one it is, IMHO. However, when the original author sent it into the list -- it didn't appear. This is the fourth attempt to get this message to you all -- as we are seeming running into a "TABOO" problem. Perhaps this fellow's email or else his domain name is on the list's taboo set-up? With this message, I've zapped all statements of his company affiliation. This message should go out to all to see now. IMHO, this message isn't spam and is 100% on target. As for the taboo things -- well, that isn't my call. I don't know this guy, nor do I know the folks who run this list. But, I do know that this was a fine bit of knowledge that was sent to the list that seems to not want to get out to the subscribers. The snagged snip follows ---- > >For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the > >following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. With *y***, we decided to break up the responsibilites and came up with the following different security roles: * server admin: has rights to all lists on the server, can do anything using the web interface or email commands. Doesn't receive any mail from any list. Receives software update notifications from us. * site admin: has rights over all the lists in their "site" (ie: a grouping of lists), similar responsibilities as a server admin. Can change virtual site settings (such as hostname, look & feel, etc). * list admin: can add/delete members, moderate, change FAQs, action phrases, autoresponders & change all list settings. Has no rights to anything but their own list. Members can also have any of the following extra rights, which are single yes/no parameters: * moderator: receives moderated message notifications, and can approve them * owner: receives mail sent to the owner-listname@... address * error mail receiver: has opted to receive notifications of error mail that Lyris has processed * announcer: can send messages to the list, no matter what the moderation settings are * poster: is allowed to send contributions when a list is set to reject non-posters (for example, a magazine with an author pool might use this) This works pretty well for us. However, we do get a lot of requests for a more limited list admin role, where the server administrator could remove specific functions from the list admin's menu. Usually, the server administrator fears that the admin is a danger to themselves, and will tinker with the wrong things, thus screwing up their own list (mucking with the open/closed/private/password security setting, for instance) > To take this one step further, I'm not even happy with the term, "LIST." The > LIST term is one that is getting old, IMHO, but should get dropped in the > next round of changes. Agreed. Several years ago, when we used to sell another product (a windows front end to another product) we called them "Email Discussion Groups". However, the term "Discussion Groups" has now been coopted by the Newsgroup folks (that's what DjaNws(sic) calls them). And besides, "Discussion Groups" doesn't do justice to announcement lists and moderated-edit lists, which in many cases is what people are more familiar with. Nowadays, we simply call them "email lists" and say that there are several kinds of "email lists", such as "owner-controlled announcement lists", "moderated discussions", "moderated user-contributed announcements", and "open discussions". Recently, a new type has become popular, which we call "DocBots", as in "Document Robots". Surveys, document repositories, and other "email databases" fall into this general category, where there is an active relationship between the user and the list server. PS: I sent this message to the list several days ago, but it never was distributed. If Majordomo suddenly decides to distribute one of the other four older posts, our apologies for sending four copies. John some email address zapped Some company name zapped Developers of some other product name zapped too. --- end of snarlled snip above ---- -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher, S.S.S. http://www.sportsurf.net mrauterkus@sportsurf.net http://www.SportSurf.Net/FootNotes FootNotes: Mac E-book authoring and distribution environment with built-in multi-media, lan, web, internet and e-mail capabilities. -------------- From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 17:30:12 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA05304; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA05085 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id PAA10804; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) id PAA28458; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710022250.PAA28458@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19970930213428.00d868e4@mail.idyllmtn.com> (message from Kynn Bartlett on Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:34:28 -0700) Subject: AOL contacts Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:34:28 -0700 From: Kynn Bartlett At 09:09 p.m. 09/30/97 -0700, Todd O. wrote: >I have gotten the sense that contacting David O'Donnel is about the only >way to get AOL to respond to valid complaints from internet users. Huh. I'd think that such things would be annoying and distract Mr. O'Donnell from his work, instead of helping. Yes, you'd think so. I guess that's why he now has a staff instead of answering all his own mail. Much the same way as I'd be annoyed if someone started writing to my personal email address or telephoning me, instead of writing to my majordomo's majordomo@Mlists.com address or the owner- address. Agreed on general principle but see below. Maybe I'm just weird like that. If David has specifically said to contact him directly instead of writing to abuse@aol.com, then hey, it's his choice. (If he hasn't, though, you're probably out of line in suggesting that as the best way to resolve your problems.) AOL gives the atropos@aol.net address out on their auto-return mail for all mail sent to postmaster and/or abuse. I forget exactly what they say to use it for, but they do say it's okay to use it (I think it's the usenet problems contact?). atropos is not David's personal email account. David is the person who contacted me when I wrote AOL several years ago about setting up a news echo. When I was having trouble with the 3 twits on my list who were harressing one of my subscribers (and the regular channels weren't fast enough for me), I wrote him (not even knowing he was the postmaster). He took immediate action and told me to write him if I ever had any other problems. Shortly after that I asked him to clarify: should I write him with all AOL user problems, or just the serious/timely ones? He said only for the latter. I think it's unfortunate (for David and his staff in particular) that AOL runs things such that you have to write the actual postmaster to get replies to your questions. Now, even if they don't get back to you, AOL is great about removing the accounts of spammers when you report them to postmaster or abuse. It's the techincal problems I have trouble getting answers to and I write atropos as a last resort. BUT for serious problems such as harressment and threats of bodily harm, I do think it's appropriate to write the top dog who can take care of it. David is that person. Of course, you have to be careful what you label serious...when too many people overdo it, it makes it harder for the rest of us with the true emergencies. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From owner-list-managers-list Thu Oct 2 17:39:56 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26516; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.160.111]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id PAA26472 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 15:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710022206.PAA26472@honor.greatcircle.com> To: adamb@tezcat.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:07:11 EDT Subject: Re: list mgmt tools (bounces) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Most sites comply with the standard for bounce messages, which is > contained in an RFC somewhere (I don't have the number handy). RFCs 1891-4. However, I think it's a stretch to say that most sites comply. Recent versions of Unix sendmail do. But there are lots of other things out there that generate bounces in their own formats. From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 03:45:13 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA25127; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rampart.mincom.com (rampart.mincom.com [203.15.57.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id XAA02763 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 23:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by rampart.mincom.com (8.8.3/8.7.3) id QAA30321 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:39:19 +1000 Received: from portal.mincom.oz.au(192.55.181.11) by blocker via smap (V2.0) id xma030318; Fri, 3 Oct 97 16:39:13 +1000 Received: from deimos.mincom.oz.au (deimos [192.55.198.248]) by portal.mincom.oz.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29002 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:39:10 +1000 Received: (from philh@localhost) by deimos.mincom.oz.au (8.8.4/8.7.3) id QAA08848 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:39:07 +1000 (EST) From: Phil Homewood Message-Id: <199710030639.QAA08848@deimos.mincom.oz.au> Subject: Re: Today's award for "Most Obfuscated Bounce Message" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:39:07 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199710030030.RAA25702@honor.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Oct 2, 97 05:30:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP6] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Sort of reminds me of the following sub announcement majordomo sent me > earlier this summer... > > PTS#u#CBH#u#D#c#PTS#u#CBH#u#D.PTS#u#CBH#u#P#c#DelaiR@health.qld.gov.au > > That's one helluva long address. I'd hate to type it in everytime. I > verified it with the person who had it. She's a helth official in, if I > remember right, Queensgate, Australia. In any event, the postmaster down > there apparantly dishes these out to everyone. Shortly after this was > received, I received a note from the person indicating it would change to a > most human readably style. Queensland, not Queensgate. And yes, they have moved to something more humanly readable. Pity that a given address is not guaranteed to remain constantly unambiguous (for example, Joe Smith might be smithj@health.blah, but if Jane Smith then gets an account, yup, smithj (user is ambiguous) I know not what the MTA is. I don't want to know. All I know is that we have a lot of employees contacting to Qld Health, and trying to keep their aliases in order hurts badly. They also have no postmaster@. P. -- Phil Homewood email: philh@mincom.com Postmaster/Hostmaster/Webmaster Mincom Pty Ltd phone: +61-7-3364-9715 Brisbane, QLD Australia fax: +61-7-3364-9910 From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 08:46:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA02366; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zipcode.atg.aol.com (zipcode.atg.aol.com [152.163.8.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA02322 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (zhou@localhost) by zipcode.atg.aol.com with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.3) id LAA27949; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:26:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zipcode.atg.aol.com: zhou owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:26:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Yingying Zhou X-Sender: zhou@zipcode.atg.aol.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: "David O'Donnell" Subject: Re: AOL contacts (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm forwarding this message for Daivd O'Donnell since he is not on this list. Feel free to email him if you have any questions with this message. Yingying ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:18:55 -0400 (EDT) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com To: zhou@aol.net Subject: Re: AOL contacts (fwd) > Yes, you'd think so. I guess that's why he now has a staff instead of > answering all his own mail. > > Much the same way > as I'd be annoyed if someone started writing to my personal email > address or telephoning me, instead of writing to my majordomo's > majordomo@Mlists.com address or the owner- address. > > Agreed on general principle but see below. > > Maybe I'm just weird like that. If David has specifically said to > contact him directly instead of writing to abuse@aol.com, then hey, > it's his choice. (If he hasn't, though, you're probably out of > line in suggesting that as the best way to resolve your problems.) Yingying Zhou kindly forwarded this message on to me, so please make sure to send replies to PMDAtropos@aol.com and not her. I'm concerned that people are note seeing resolution when they mail complaints to postmaster@aol.com or abuse@aol.net (yes, we prefer abuse@aol.net although abuse@aol.com *will* work). The reason my address (actually, now David Jackson's address - djackson@aol.net) was included on the postmaster/abuse auto-response was for people who've reported abuse and seen no change in its flow to contact me; and to provide an *emergency* contact point in the event you're seeing egregious immediate and damaging abuse, like a mailbomb. It wasn't to say "hey, don't send mail to abuse or postmaster, send it to me instead." Believe me, between the mail I get for work, the anti-junk mail list I'm on and the gazillions of bogus complaints about junk mail with forged AOL.COM headers, I get *plenty* of mail every day. So much so that I routinely have five to six hundred pieces in my mailboxes. Unfortunately, I don't know the whole context of this message thread, but I hope the following addresses will help people who have questions or problems with AOL: For problems with networking issues (DNS resolution, connectivity, etc) send mail to trouble@aol.net ^^^ note the NET, not COM! For problems with junk mail or USENET abuse by an AOL member (and after you've looked at the headers to make sure it's REALLY an AOL member) send mail to: abuse@aol.net abuse@aol.com postmaster@aol.com in that order of preference For junk mail you receive with forged AOL.COM headers send mail to: aollegal@aol.com ^^ note there are two lowercase "L"s here For IRC problems send mail to: tosirc@aol.com For routine questions about AOL send mail to: postmaster@aol.com If it's an emergency (mailbombing or similar realtime issue) send mail to: pmdatropos@aol.com atropos@aol.net right now, best to send to both addresses; I have better access to pmdatropos than atropos. If you're in a REALLY SERIOUS EMERGENCY, like a DOS attack by an AOL member, and you are *certain* it is an AOL member, page me at 1 800/SKY-PAGE pin 128-5338. Then call the AOL Network Operations Center at 703/453-5862. The NOC is staffed 24x7, whereas I occasionally require a little sleep. --David O'Donnell Director, AOL Internet Development Outreach & Technology From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 12:15:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA09997; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id MAA09845 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (rock29.wco.com [199.4.109.129]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id MAA20758; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 12:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971003121110.008e1c80@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 12:11:10 -0700 To: "David O'Donnell" From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Ongoing harrassment and mail bombing: dotmorriso Cc: atropos@aol.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnel wrote: >I'm concerned that people are note seeing resolution when they mail >complaints to postmaster@aol.com or abuse@aol.net (yes, we prefer >abuse@aol.net although abuse@aol.com *will* work). Well, that makes two of us. Now, I'd like some action to go along with the concern. There has been serious abuse issued by your dotmorriso@aol.com account for over a month, now. Please correct this situation immediately. Details follow. On Saturday, August 30, several thousand subscribers to mountain biking lists, including four that I run, received unsolicited e-mail written by Mike Vandeman and sent from the account dotmorriso@aol.com. (You cancelled Mike Vandeman's Mjvvv account in in Feb. 1996 when I called you on the phone while he was in the process of crashing the server my lists run on. See http://www.keck.ucsf.edu/~dblake/vand.html for details.) The mail was sent directly to the subscribers' addresses, not to the 20 or so lists from which the addresses were harvested. Apparently one message was sent for each letter of the alphabet and copied to all addresses beginning with that letter. Here on the heasers and beginning of one of those posts: /* begin original message */ Return-path: Envelope-to: jborg@xmission.com Delivery-date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:41:39 -0600 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.11.96] by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #4) id 0x4k2D-0007Cq-00; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 03:41:37 -0600 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA15282; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 05:34:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Dotmorriso@aol.com Message-ID: <970830053439_1059583460@emout05.mail.aol.com> Subject: The Effects of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People Bcc: X-UIDL: b9de07cabb605077cd930224349c018c X-PMFLAGS: 34603136 0 I would like to create a mailing list for serious discussions of the impacts of mountain biking on wildlife and people. Please reply with "remove" as the subject or message if you do not want to receive such information, such as the following: [about 22K of diatribe deleted] /* end original message */ Many people sent complaints to you postmaster and abuse addresses during that episode, and continued to send them through at least September 5 I am told. On September 17, dotmorriso@aol.com struck again, this time on six or seven usenet newsgroups, including sci.environment, ca.environment, rec.backcountry, rec.bicycles.off-road, alt.mountain-bike, and rec.animals.wildlife, which is ported to another e-mail list that has been disrupted and intruded upon by Mike Vandeman over the years. The huge, three part message was posted individually to each newgroup, maximizing the waste of bandwidth and setting off flame wars that were widely cross-posted for weeks. The content of the message contained instructions to spam the thousands of subscribers to mountain biking lists at cycling.org, a list of the 32 lists from which addresses had been harvested, instructions to subscribe to those lists and disrupt them, and the addresses of thousands of subscribers with instructions to send them unwanted and unsolicited e-mail. It also contained instructions to call up the employers of any of those subscribers who seem to be using their work accounts to subscribe to the lists and complain to their employers about the alleged abuse of company assets. Yesterday, the employer of two subscribers working at Charles Scwab were contacted by Mike Vandeman who claimed to be a big and important Scwab customer while he lodged just such a complaint. Here are the message headers from one of the usenet messages I am describing: /* begin original message */ From: dotmorriso@aol.com (Dotmorriso) Newsgroups: rec.animals.wildlife Subject: How to Communicate with Mountain Bikers (Part 1) Date: 17 Sep 1997 09:56:52 GMT Lines: 1195 Message-ID: <19970917095600.FAA18804@ladder02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder02.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com SnewsLanguage: English [over 1100 lines of instructions and e-mail addresses deleted] /* end original message */ Parts two and three of those messages consisted entirely of e-mail addresses of list subscribers. Again, complaints were sent to your postmaster and abuse addresses. Apparently nothing was done, or has been done because this morning, dotmorriso@aol.com is on the attack again. Beginning last night and continuing on into this morning, the same list of cycling.org subscribers has been receiving unsolicited and unwanted e-mail written by Mike Vandeman. I haven't been hit myself, because Vandeman knows better than to tip me off, but I have seen complaints flowing into my lists and others. David, please put an end to this, and let me know that it has been put to and end so that I can reassure my subscribers that they won't be bothered by dotmorriso@aol.com any longer. I am losing subscribers because of this ongoing abuse, my list and my personal account are showing a marked increase in spam since the posts to usenet, and I still have the sense that AOL isn't doing a damn thing about it. Please note that I am sending this to the list-managers list by way of explanantion of my earlier post ther explaining that I don't get the sense that AOL really takes care of matters such as these until you get involved. Please feel free to issue an explanation for the list. I will be happy to forward it for you if necessary. Thanks, Todd Ourston -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 15:45:50 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA16811; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id PAA16750 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (grev.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.108]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02426; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971003153509.00e80414@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 15:35:09 -0700 To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Ongoing harrassment and mail bombing: dotmorriso Cc: "David O'Donnell" , atropos@aol.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971003121110.008e1c80@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:11 p.m. 10/03/97 -0700, Todd O. wrote: >Please note that I am sending this to the list-managers list by way of >explanantion of my earlier post ther explaining that I don't get the sense >that AOL really takes care of matters such as these until you get involved. > Please feel free to issue an explanation for the list. I will be happy to >forward it for you if necessary. I personally don't care about any specific incidents and what's done in them; please _don't_ bring your personal difficulties onto this list. It's one thing for us to discuss the best way to handle problems with bad netizens, at AOL and elsewhere, but it's another thing to be dragged into the middle of your ongoing problems with anyone. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` Virtual Dog Show is open! www.dogshow.com From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 16:15:08 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA25143; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA24954 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (clavius19.wco.com [199.4.109.19]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id QAA08220; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971003160934.007cf960@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 16:09:34 -0700 To: Kynn Bartlett From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: Ongoing harrassment and mail bombing: dotmorriso Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971003153509.00e80414@mail.idyllmtn.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19971003121110.008e1c80@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:35 PM 10/3/97 -0700, Kynn Bartlett wrote: >I personally don't care about any specific incidents and what's >done in them; please _don't_ bring your personal difficulties >onto this list. As I explained in the portion of my message you quoted, I copied my mail to the list as an example of the lack of response I (and others) have received from AOL's abuse and postmaster addresses. My message was a reply to a message sent to the list on behalf of David O'Donnell. O'Donnell's message was sent because there still seems to be some interest and doubt about how to contact AOL and what to expect. I invited David O'Donnell to follow up with us here so that we can get to the bottom of this. I think that is in keeping with what you had in mind: >It's one thing for us to discuss the best way to handle problems >with bad netizens, at AOL and elsewhere, but it's another thing >to be dragged into the middle of your ongoing problems with >anyone. Once again, no one has been dragged anywhere. The focus of my message was not in the individuals involved, but the ongoing abuse and complaints to which AOL has not responded in any meaningful way. That is on topic. Your personal problems with me or others are not. If you or anyone else on the list has personal problems with me, please keep them personal. If you want a flame war, I'll let you know when I have time. In particuar, do take care not to send your personal complaints to AOL's priority complaint addresses when the person you are complaining about is not an AOL customer. Todd Ourston Not an AOL customer -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 16:45:45 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA28986; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA28926 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.219.12.99] (A17-219-12-99.apple.com [17.219.12.99]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA19804 ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:26:31 -0700 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19971003121110.008e1c80@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:24:18 -0700 To: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com>, "David O'Donnell" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Ongoing harrassment and mail bombing: dotmorriso Cc: atropos@aol.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:11 PM -0700 10/3/97, Todd O. wrote: >Apparently one message was sent for >each letter of the alphabet and copied to all addresses beginning with that >letter. Which is, of course, why "who/who" is turned off on my servers for all users, until I can write a more secure one. I ran into this one by accident myself, when a user with a single letter account wrote me and warned me. Ugh. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 17:00:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA05917; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell.wco.com (shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA05828 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:55:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from User.wco.com (rock35.wco.com [199.4.109.135]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id QAA22989; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971003165217.00806650@mail.wco.com> X-Sender: 2bits@mail.wco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 16:52:17 -0700 To: Chuq Von Rospach From: "Todd O." <2bits@wco.com> Subject: Re: Ongoing harrassment and mail bombing: dotmorriso Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19971003121110.008e1c80@mail.wco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Cc: to AOL emergency addresses trimmed] At 04:24 PM 10/3/97 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Which is, of course, why "who/who" is turned off on my servers for all >users, until I can write a more secure one. I ran into this one by >accident myself, when a user with a single letter account wrote me and >warned me. Ugh. I've asked the owner/operator of our server to disable that feature. No response from him so far. I think it is a good idea, though. Back to the differences in stories about AOL's responsiveness, I think it may be that AOL is well drilled in cancelling accounts for UCE abuses, but they just don't know what to make of the sort of stories I have described. Does anyone else have some insights that may illuminate that perspective? Todd Ourston -- Todd Ourston * 2bits@wco.com * Marin County, California From owner-list-managers-list Fri Oct 3 18:00:31 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA16575; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:43:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA16546 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.7/PanixU1.3) id UAA28892 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:45:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199710040045.UAA28892@panix.com> Subject: Re: Ongoing harrassment (etc) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 20:45:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (quoting Todd O) > Back to the differences in stories about AOL's responsiveness, I think it > may be that AOL is well drilled in cancelling accounts for UCE abuses, but > they just don't know what to make of the sort of stories I have described. > Does anyone else have some insights that may illuminate that perspective? Only that Vandeman is an example of the other sort of spamster: a ZEALOT who believes that they are posessed of a spiel that they must share with everyone they come in contact with. I just finished dealing with a similar case (if you're interested I'll email you privately) who insisted on attacking my ISP because they were "the enemy" since they gave ACTUP free access, whereas he was kicked off (he didnt bother saying it was for newsgroup spam). I'm not about to ask AOL to take action against this one, tho. -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From owner-list-managers-list Sat Oct 4 17:45:41 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA15868; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sparknet.net (mail.sparknet.net [207.67.22.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id RAA15851 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 17:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from freedom.sparknet.net (chris-1800.sparknet.net [207.67.22.43]) by mail.sparknet.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20007 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 19:38:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971004193636.00aae4d0@mail.sparknet.net> X-Sender: knight@mail.sparknet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 19:36:38 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Christopher Knight Subject: Re: Predicting e-mail traffic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:34 AM 9/27/97 -0700, Sam Brooks wrote: >Have there been any studies to predict the amount of traffic >a discussion list will generate, based on the number of subscribers? > >e.g. will 1,000 listmembers generate 150 posts per day, > sort of thing. >Thanks in advance >Sam We thought we'd give a little $8/month for less than 25 members small list hosting service..... After the final stats were in for September, they moved 56,768 Emails through their list. (this particular one was christian priest discussion). That blew our expectations by about 50,000 Emails. So, until you get a sample after 30 days of list traffic, you really don't know. Cheers! Christopher Knight http://SparkLIST.com/ From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 16:30:57 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02896; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA02853 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA02884 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id IAA17356; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (ip72.an4-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net [38.6.4.72]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18891 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710011554.IAA18891@germany.it.earthlink.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ray Osborne" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:50:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: list mgmt tools (bounces) Reply-to: tekjobs@themall.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry if this is the second time you received this but I didn't get a copy so I doubt it got out. Hi, I am interested in utitlity tools to help maintain my mail lists. In particular bounced mail. I don't use a listserv but rather the mail features of Pegasus. Pegasus has some good filtering characterisitics but I have been unable to write a script to remove the email addresses of bounced email from a list. I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that I am unaware of. At the moment I am employing a work at home secretary to keep my databases of email addresses fined tuned. What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that are no longer useful ? If you discussed this already then I would appreciate somebody telling me what date so I can find the archive. Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 16:35:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02781; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA02771 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id HAA13176 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip-pdx05-29.teleport.com (ip-pdx05-29.teleport.com [206.163.123.158]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA10520 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971001055953.1e27d10c@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: reedg@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 05:59:53 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Reed Gleason Subject: Shouldn't recipient's address be in headers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Occasionally a s*bscriber will be receiving my list at one address, but will try to post or uns*bscribe from a different address, and they won't know what their subscribe address is. I tell them to look at all the headers and find out who the list messages are being sent to, but now I notice that, for my lists, the recipient isn't shown, at least not if you're using Eudora and click on "blah,blah,blah". Shouldn't lists be configured so the address the messages are sent to is in the headers? Some lists do... Listmom does: Return-Path: ListMom-Talk@SkyList.Net Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01271 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:41:51 -0700 (PDT)..... But List-managers doesn't: Return-Path: owner-list-managers-digest-outgoing@GreatCircle.COM Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by portia.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03871; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay5.UU.NET with ESMTP Seems most Majordomo lists don't, but some do. What should I tell my s*bscriber who gets the list, but can't post because they're "not a s*bscriber"? -- Reed Gleason; Reedg@teleport.com; Portland, OR. 503-283-1366 List"owner"(yeah, right) of goatslite@lists.teleport.com CAPER DIEM! ("play with your goats all day") From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 16:40:11 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02861; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA02808 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from luna2.shelby.com (luna.shelby.com [207.105.6.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA05259 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kuno (kuno [207.105.6.156]) by luna2.shelby.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10408; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:21:31 -0700 Message-Id: <199710021621.JAA10408@luna2.shelby.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "John Buckman" Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:02:43 -0800 Subject: Re: distinction among: owner, monitor and moderator CC: Mark Rauterkus In-reply-to: <199709261806.MAA15560@sportsurf.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >For the purposes of this research, we are making a distinction among the > >following roles: list owner, list monitor and list moderator. With Lyris, we decided to break up the responsibilites and came up with the following different security roles: * server admin: has rights to all lists on the server, can do anything using the web interface or email commands. Doesn't receive any mail from any list. Receives software update notifications from us. * site admin: has rights over all the lists in their "site" (ie: a grouping of lists), similar responsibilities as a server admin. Can change virtual site settings (such as hostname, look & feel, etc). * list admin: can add/delete members, moderate, change FAQs, action phrases, autoresponders & change all list settings. Has no rights to anything but their own list. Members can also have any of the following extra rights, which are single yes/no parameters: * moderator: receives moderated message notifications, and can approve them * owner: receives mail sent to the owner-listname@... address * error mail receiver: has opted to receive notifications of error mail that Lyris has processed * announcer: can send messages to the list, no matter what the moderation settings are * poster: is allowed to send contributions when a list is set to reject non-posters (for example, a magazine with an author pool might use this) This works pretty well for us. However, we do get a lot of requests for a more limited list admin role, where the server administrator could remove specific functions from the list admin's menu. Usually, the server administrator fears that the admin is a danger to themselves, and will tinker with the wrong things, thus screwing up their own list (mucking with the open/closed/private/password security setting, for instance) > To take this one step further, I'm not even happy with the term, "LIST." The > LIST term is one that is getting old, IMHO, but should get dropped in the > next round of changes. Agreed. Several years ago, when we used to sell InfoMagnet (a windows front end to LISTSERV) we called them "Email Discussion Groups". However, the term "Discussion Groups" has now been coopted by the Newsgroup folks (that's what DejaNews calls them). And besides, "Discussion Groups" doesn't do justice to announcement lists and moderated-edit lists, which in many cases is what people are more familiar with. Nowadays, we simply call them "email lists" and say that there are several kinds of "email lists", such as "owner-controlled announcement lists", "moderated discussions", "moderated user-contributed announcements", and "open discussions". Recently, a new type has become popular, which we call "DocBots", as in "Document Robots". Surveys, document repositories, and other "email databases" fall into this general category, where there is an active relationship between the user and the list server. PS: I sent this message to the list several days ago, but it never was distributed. If Majordomo suddenly decides to distribute my week-old post, my apologies for sending two copies. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com Developers of Lyris Email List Server From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 16:46:29 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03857; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA03801 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA07241 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (ip242.an3-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net [38.6.3.242]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12574 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021615.JAA12574@germany.it.earthlink.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ray Osborne" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:12:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Web hosting for List Owners/Managers Reply-to: tekjobs@themall.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello All, Now this is the area I would like to research and do some shopping on. Does any list owners/managers have a Web hosting service they are particulary happy with ? I am shopping for one. What would a list owner/manager want with a good Web hosting service ? Multiple Auto Responders comes to mind. Multiple email alias for filtering purposes. Good track history of being on line 100 per cent. Professionalism is important as I deal with a lot of corporate clients. Anybody else have a wish list that they would impose on a good Web hosting service ? Seems like there is a million out there. Anybody have a Web host they would recommend for a multiple-list owner ? Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 16:50:10 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03706; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA03688 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id IAA26808 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (ip204.an3-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net [38.6.3.204]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA19696; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021509.IAA19696@italy.it.earthlink.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ray Osborne" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:06:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: list mgmt tools (bounces) Reply-to: tekjobs@themall.net CC: Hal Wine X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ray wrote: >I am interested in utitlity tools to help maintain my mail lists. In >particular bounced mail. I don't use a listserv but rather the mail >features of Pegasus. Hal wrote: >That's why folks use list software -- bounce handling is a big problem to >solve. Ray Responded: How does list software handle bounces ? Just deletes the bounce warning as it comes back or actually remove the email address from the master list ? If it removes email addresses of bounced mail then there must be some code that it is using to do this. If it just deletes the warning then I do that anyway by filling up a mail folder with bounced mail and dumping it now and then. >I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of >returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that >I am unaware of. Hal >No standard, many conventions. This makes me think if there is no standard just convention then it will make it difficult for any software to actually remove email addresses of bounced mail. And if there is all this email out there just bouncing around will it not be slowing down the Internet to some degree ? Ray>What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that Ray>are no longer useful ? Hal >My list software. If you have a large enough list to keep a secretary Hal >busy, you need list software. I dunno it's not a big problem as I retire my oldest mail lists and tell my subscribers to resubscribe. I just did this with my Human Resource Professionals list and it worked quite well. I have a huge list of Human Resource professionals of major corps around the US which I have been building for the past two year. After this time I would end up with over 500 bounces so I took the old list and told any active subscribers to resubscribe into a new list. This is how I overcame this list. But that list is not as crucial as my Computer Professionals lists and I wanted a better technology way to solve this problem Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 17:00:46 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA05783; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA05756 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id VAA11445 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip-pdx08-22.teleport.com (ip-pdx24-07.teleport.com [206.163.125.231]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA00881 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971002215513.3cefaf72@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: reedg@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 21:55:13 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Reed Gleason Subject: Shouldn't recipient's address be in headers? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Occasionally a s*bscriber will be receiving my list at one address, but will try to post or uns*bscribe from a different address, and they won't know what their s*bscribe address is. I tell them to look at all the headers and find out who the list messages are being sent to, but now I notice that, for my lists, the recipient isn't shown, at least not if you're using Eudora and click on "blah,blah,blah". Shouldn't lists be configured so the address the messages are sent to is in the headers? Some lists do... Listmom does: Return-Path: ListMom-Talk@SkyList.Net Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01271 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:41:51 -0700 (PDT)..... But List-managers doesn't: Return-Path: owner-list-managers-digest-outgoing@GreatCircle.COM Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by portia.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03871; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 01:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay5.UU.NET with ESMTP Seems most Majordomo lists don't, but some do. What should I tell my s*bscriber who gets the list, but can't post because they're "not a s*bscriber"? -- Reed Gleason; Reedg@teleport.com; Portland, OR. 503-283-1366 List"owner"(yeah, right) of goatslite@lists.teleport.com CAPER DIEM! ("play with your goats all day") From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 17:15:34 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA06922; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA06886 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id DAA27827 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 03:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from findel (bollow@findel [129.132.146.134]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id MAA19900; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:18:22 +0200 Received: (bollow@localhost) by findel (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id MAA14230; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:18:21 +0200 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:18:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199710041018.MAA14230@findel> From: Norbert Bollow To: tekjobs@themall.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199710010146.SAA01571@germany.it.earthlink.net> (rko22@earthlink.net) Subject: BOUNCEFILTER (Re: list mgmt tools (bounces)) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of > returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that There is a standard (defined in RFC1892 and RFC1894) but many MTA's out there generate bounces which don't conform to the standard. It is not trivial to handle them all automatically and reliably. Vince Sabio has a program named SmartBounce which actually tries to parse all of those weird formats, see http://www.bsabio.com/SmartBounce/ I have also written an automated bounce-handler, which is named Bouncefilter. It uses a different (and in my opinion, much superior) strategy, see the excerpt from the README below. Another advantage of Bouncefilter is that it is fully and truly free software, you get the source code and you're allowed to improve it and even redistribute it. The downside is that Bouncefilter isn't available for so many platforms yet, in fact the only version which is known to work reliably is the one for my own (heavily hacked) version of Majordomo. I've also made an "alpha release" of a version for Majordomo 1.94.x (it is available at http://www.lists.oulu.fi/bh-workers/html/msg00040.html and I had hoped that someone would do some testing and bug-fixing on it so that it could be made generally available as a free bounce-handler for Majordomo, but it seems that nothing has happened in that direction yet. Actually it shouldn't be too hard to port Bouncefilter to very different environments. Fell free to grab the alpha version mentioned above and port it to your environment, or hire a consultant who'd do that for you. In the long run I'm sure that'd be significantly cheaper than your current approach, and in addition other will be able to profit from this if you allow me to incorporate that port into future official version of Bouncefilter. (If you have some patience I might even be willing to port Bouncefilter for you for a relatively low fee, as soon as I've finished that Ph.D. thesis which I'm trying hard to get finished before the end of this year.) > What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that > are no longer useful ? If you discussed this already then I would > appreciate somebody telling me what date so I can find the archive. You'll find some archived discussions at http://www.lists.oulu.fi/bh-workers/html/maillist.html May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. General information about BOUNCEFILTER: If you are the list-owner for a Majordomo mailing list, you have probably already received countless error messages when mail delivery to one or more of the addresses on your list fails. There is a great variety of different reasons why this can happen. For example, the recipient's mailbox may be full (some system allow each user to store only a limited number of e-mail messages) or the receiving host might be down or unreachable for a period of time. Also, when an email account is closed, in many cases people don't bother to unsubscribe from mailing lists first. If the list-owner has to handle this flood of error messages manually, that can be a small inconvenience or a lot of work, depending on how many subscribers the list has. BOUNCEFILTER is a computer program designed to remove this burden from the shoulders of the list-owner, while at the same time giving the best possible service to your subscribers. If an address starts generating error messages, BOUNCEFILTER will try to send daily warning messages for a few days (in many cases temporary failures of mail delivery are the fault of the ISP, or e-mail provider, and the subscriber will probably not be informed that there were such problems unless someone tells them). If an e-mail address continues to generates error messages for more than four days, BOUNCEFILTER will unsubscribe the address automatically and continue to send warnings for about a month. The list-owners receive a daily summary of the activities of bouncefilter (just one e-mail message per day). Depending on how Majordomo is set up, this message may also contain information on other things, like when an address is SUBSCRIBEd or UNSUBSCRIBEd. Occasionally, someone will reply to the warnings from bouncefilter; such replies are forwarded to the list-owners. Some people write to say that the problem with their e-mail address has been fixed. In such cases you may want to check if the adddress has been removed already, and in that case subscribe the address again. Other people write something like "How do we go about correcting this problem?" in response to the "Warning: It was not possible to send you e-mail!" messages. In that case, you can simply write "Contact your ISP, or e-mail provider. Possibly the problem has already been fixed." Here is a brief (somewhat technical) description of how bouncefilter works: My 'bouncefilter' script receives all messages to owner-$Listname\@myhost and checks if they are delivery status notifications (DSNs). Those which are not DSNs are forwarded to the list-owners. Those DSNs which conform to RFC 1894 (which is a proposed internet standard for the format of DSNs) are parsed and acted upon as follows: To those addresses which are marked as "failed", bouncefilter sends a warning message which starts like this: From: owner-$ListName\@$whereami Subject: Warning: It was not possible to send you e-mail! This is just a warning message to let you know that we got an error message for your e-mail address. This means that you did not receive one or more items of mail from the $ListName list, and possibly other, more personal e-mail messages did not reach you either. The warning messages also contains a copy of the human-readable part of the DSN. To each of these addresses, these warning messages are repeated on a daily basis unless no "failed" DSN arrives from that address. If after five days there are still "failed" DSNs from that address, the address is automatically unsubscribed. Bouncefilter still sends daily warning messages (until one of them does not bounce with a "failed" DSN) for 25 more days which start like this: From: owner-$ListName\@$whereami Subject: Warning: You're off the $ListName list now! After we received error messages which indicated that it was not possible to send e-mail to your address, your address was removed from the $ListName list $Days. Unfortunately in such a situation it is normally not possible to notify you of the problem, because e-mail will not reach you. What we do in such a situation is that we try to send you a warning message like this every day for a whole month until one of the messages gets through to you. Since you read this, possibly the problem has gone away now, and you might want to subscribe again to the $ListName list. You can do this by sending the command subscribe $ListName in the body of an e-mail message To: Needless to say, the list-owners receive a daily e-mail message with a log of what is going on. There are four special cases of which I haven't explained yet how my bouncefilter treats them: a) The (unfortunately still very frequent) case of DSNs which don't conform to RFC1894. b) The address (which is subscribed to a list) forwards to an invalid address which might generate error messages for which don't mention the subscribed address at all. c) Someone subscribed a local exploder to my list but goofed so that the DSNs go to my owner-$Listname alias instead of going to the operator of the local exploder. d) Some hosts send DSNs to the address in the From: or To: header of the message like they should. (Unfortunately, sending DSNs to the envelope From address is a SHOULD and not a MUST in RFC1123.) Cases a), b) and c) are all handled by a simple trick: Every 10 days or so, (the frequency of this can be set from the configuration file) resend sends one of the list's messages in a special way: Instead of sending the message to the -outgoing alias with an envelope-from of owner-$Listname\@$whereami, the message is sent individually to each subscriber with a special envelope-from of bouncefilter+$ListName=$1=$2\@$whereami where $1 and $2 are obtained as follows: $Addr=$Address; $Addr=~s/=/=.=/g; $Addr=~/^(.*)\@(.*)$/; The processing of error bounces for these addresses relies on the feature of sendmail that local delivery of messages addressed to an address of the form $User+$Extra delivers to the mailbox or alias $User. Bouncefilter will extract the information which is contained in the $Extra from the To: header. (this is not the perfect solution, and in principle I'd know how to improve it, but that would require me to hack the sendmail.cf and I don't have time for that) All such bounces which are not recognized (by some simple heuristics) as "delay notifications" are treated as failed DSNs, as above. Case d) is different, because the DSNs are sent to the wrong address, and the trick with putting that bouncefilter+ address into the envelope doesn't help. Bouncefilter deals with this problem in the following way: Since there is no reliable way of parsing such DSNs, bouncefilter discards BOUNCEs of such DSNs from Majordomo's 'resend' program (so that the list-owners don't get flooded with them) and every six months the following message is sent to all subscribers to weed out the subscriber database: From: bouncefilter+$ListName=$1=$2\@$whereami To: bouncefilter+$ListName=$1=$2\@$whereami Subject: Mailing list $ListName: Semi-annual subscription reminder Hello! This message is a reminder that you are subscribed to the mailing list $ListName with the e-mail address $Address. We hope that you are enjoying this mailing list. In that case, you can simply delete this message and you will remain subscribed. Otherwise, you may simply reply to this message - it doesn't matter if you write some text in your reply or if you send back an empty message - and you will be unsubscribed automatically. On behalf of the list-owners, $whereami P.S. If you are subscibed with an outdated e-mail address which still works, and you want to change it so that you're subscribed with your up-to-date e-mail address, you can reply to this message for getting your old e-mail address unsubscribed, but don't forget to send a separate message to $whoami for subscribing with your current e-mail address. For that subscription request it doesn't matter what you put in the Subject: line, but in the 'text area' of your e-mail message put the command: subscribe $ListName This does not only provide a reminder for updating e-mail addresses in mailing list subscriptions, but it also gets rid of bad addresses at hosts which send DSNs to the From: or the To: address and not the envelope from address. (As a side effect, this may remove addresses with "cannot send message for N hours" warnings if those warnings go to the header From: or To: address instead of the envelope from. I firmly believe that this is justified: When a host doesn't obey that SHOULD in RFC1123, and this non-compliance causes trouble, it is right to unsubscribe that address and send a notification which notes that they might want to find an e-mail provider who sends error messages to the right address.) Note: Handling of case d) is not fully implemented yet. See the file doc/TODO.bouncefilter for details. Note: In future releases, common cases of non-1894-compliant bounces will probably be treated similarly like 1894-compliant bounces are handled today. Bug reports, other comments, etc. can be sent by e-mail to the author Norbert Bollow . Please Cc: such messages to Richard Bullington who has volunteered to act as Release Coordinator for the Bouncefilter project. There is also a related mailing list: > To subscribe to BH-WORKERS send email to and in > the body of the message write: > > subscribe bh-workers your@email.address.here > end Blessings from Switzerland! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow (Zuerich, Switzerland; http://pobox.com/~nb) serving Christ Jesus; co-owner of the CHURCHPLANTERS mailing list. From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 17:23:32 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03834; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) id QAA03761 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 16:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id JAA06192 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (ip242.an3-atlanta2.ga.pub-ip.psi.net [38.6.3.242]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09808 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710021608.JAA09808@germany.it.earthlink.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Ray Osborne" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:05:14 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: list mgmt tools (bounces) Reply-to: tekjobs@themall.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks ! How does this software handle bounces ? Does it just delete the bounced receipt or does it actually remove the email address from a master list ? See my problem isn't with disposing of bounce receipts but rather taking out the email address. This is an issue because I get paid by my clients to advertise on my lists and they want to know how many people will actually read their announcements. It pays me to employ a work at home secretary to fine tune my mail lists. So I need to do accurate counts on my multiple lists. As a ethical list owner I think it is dishonest to say well I have 6,000 email addresses in that target group and neglect the fact that 35% of it is bounced email. I suppose I have to start counting the bounces eh ? But anybody notice that bounces come in packets and some bounces are replicated ? From: Marc Mead Reply-to: "mmead@revnet.com" To: "'tekjobs@themall.net'" Subject: RE: list mgmt tools (bounces) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:57:59 -0500 Organization: Revnet Systems Hi Ray, have you looked at GroupMaster http://www.groupmaster.com ? It handles bounces in the background without you ever lifting a finger, and is extremely easy to use. Check it out and let me know if I can help further. Marc Mead mailto:mmead@revnet.com Revnet Systems 205-721-1420 ext. 717 -----Original Message----- From: Ray Osborne [SMTP:rko22@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 1997 4:43 PM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: list mgmt tools (bounces) Hi, I am interested in utitlity tools to help maintain my mail lists. In particular bounced mail. I don't use a listserv but rather the mail features of Pegasus. Pegasus has some good filtering characterisitics but I have been unable to write a script to remove the email addresses of bounced email from a list. I think the problem has to do with the non standardization of returned mail. Unless there is a standard (a uniform code) that I am unaware of. At the moment I am employing a work at home secretary to keep my databases of email addresses fined tuned. What do you all use to delete and edit out email addresses that are no longer useful ? If you discussed this already then I would appreciate somebody telling me what date so I can find the archive. Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." Regards, Ray Osborne "Habit #4, Think Win/Win, Win/Win is not a technique, it's a total philosophy of Human Interaction.." -Stephen Covey author of " The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.." From owner-list-managers-list Sun Oct 5 23:00:38 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA20465; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (kristeva.postmodern.com [198.102.244.54]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id WAA20445 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [198.102.244.52]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-960422) with ESMTP id WAA04949; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 22:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34387D71.942C64CB@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 22:56:40 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Reed Gleason Subject: Re: Shouldn't recipient's address be in headers? References: <3.0.1.16.19971001055953.1e27d10c@mail.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reed Gleason wrote: > > Occasionally a s*bscriber will be receiving my list at one address, but > will try to post or uns*bscribe from a different address, and they won't > know what their s*bscribe address is. I tell them to look at all the > headers and find out who the l*st messages are being sent to, but now I > notice that, for my lists, the recipient isn't shown, at least not if > you're using Eudora and click on "blah,blah,blah". Shouldn't lists be > configured so the address the messages are sent to is in the headers? > > Some lists do... Listmom does: > Return-Path: ListMom-Talk@SkyList.Net > Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by > desiree.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA01271 for > ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 20:41:51 -0700 (PDT)..... > > But List-managers doesn't: > Return-Path: owner-list-managers-digest-outgoing@GreatCircle.COM > Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by > portia.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA03871; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 > 01:33:59 -0700 (PDT) > Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay5.UU.NET with ESMTP > > Seems most Majordomo lists don't, but some do. This is not a function of the list management software, but of the SMTP mail transport agent (i.e., sendmail). In fact, it is the SMTP server on the *recipient* host that should (if desired) add the "for " string to the Received line. It is not possible for list-managers (or other lists hosted at greatcircle.com) to do this on the sending end, because we batch up recipients and send them via a series of bulk SMTP transactions via our service provider. Thus each copy of the message does not have a single SMTP envelope (RCPT) recipient, it has many. > What should I tell my s*bscriber who gets the list, but can't post because > they're "not a s*bscriber"? Use the Majordomo "which" command to find out their address on the list and correct it if necessary. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From owner-list-managers-list Mon Oct 6 07:46:30 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA11114; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with SMTP id HAA11101 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 07:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA01327; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:45:26 -0500 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:40:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCD23B.EC49E360.mmead@revnet.com> From: Marc Mead Reply-To: "mmead@revnet.com" To: "'tekjobs@themall.net'" , "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: list mgmt tools (bounces) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:40:45 -0500 Organization: Revnet Systems X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----Original Message----- From: Ray Osborne [SMTP:rko22@earthlink.net] Sent: Thursday, October 02, 1997 7:05 AM To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: list mgmt tools (bounces) Thanks ! How does this software handle bounces ? Does it just delete the bounced receipt or does it actually remove the email address from a master list ? [Marc Mead] GroupMaster removes the bad address from the master list and puts it in a list of invalid addresses. Bounces are classified as hard or soft. Hard bounces are those that are simply undeliverable under any circumstance (bad domain, etc.), and soft bounces are those that can't be delivered temporarily due to a net hiccup. Hard ones are removed immediately, while soft ones are re-sent until the bounce threshold (you set) is breached, then removed. Once removed from the master list, they can ve viewed at your leisure, re-validated manually, or deleted completely. See my problem isn't with disposing of bounce receipts but rather taking out the email address. This is an issue because I get paid by my clients to advertise on my lists and they want to know how many people will actually read their announcements. It pays me to employ a work at home secretary to fine tune my mail lists. So I need to do accurate counts on my multiple lists. As a ethical list owner I think it is dishonest to say well I have 6,000 email addresses in that target group and neglect the fact that 35% of it is bounced email. I suppose I have to start counting the bounces eh ? But anybody notice that bounces come in packets and some bounces are replicated ? Beyond easy bounce-handling, GroupMaster keeps complete statistics on your list size, list growth (or reduction, hope not!), all in a week/month/year-to-date table (web gui). Also, it tracks the click-through rate for embedded URLs in your messages. You know exactly how many people (actual recipients, not bounces) are on each of your lists at any point in time, and to some degree, you can determine your read-rate for messages. Hope this helps. For a screen-shot tour of GroupMaster, visit http://www.revnet.com/walk_thru/main.html Marc Mead Revnet Systems mailto:mmead@revnet.com From owner-list-managers-list Tue Oct 7 16:42:39 1997 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA14307; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-970824-1) with ESMTP id QAA14266 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyberfam.cais.com.pop.cais.com (cyberfam.cais.com [207.176.65.70]) by cais.cais.com (8.8.5/CJKv1.99-CAIS) with SMTP id TAA27287 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 19:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971007092324.006b9ba4@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: cyberfam@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 09:23:24 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Allison & Rick Martin Subject: Legitimate address? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is this a legitimate address? I just got this subscription request and wondered if I should go ahead and add this person as requeste