From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 01:52:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA07182; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA26119 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA14715 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id LAA01237; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:04:15 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL changes? To: amys@amys-answers.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:04:14 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199801231300.FAA05640@honor.greatcircle.com> from "Amy Stinson" at Jan 23, 98 07:51:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson asked, | Yesterday I had a list member write me and tell me that she had not | gotten any mail from my list site in over a day (extremely high | volume list so she *should* have gotten mail). A scan of members | showed her on there and receiving mail in index format. When I | checked the smtp logs, this message occurred: | | 13:45:35 *** Would have refused mail from <> for | from 205.160.203.108 Is AOL bouncing them back with " is not accepting mail from this sender"? AOL's Mail Controls facility, which most of its users don't even know about, has settings to block individual senders, to refuse all incoming mail, and to refuse mail from outside AOL. The second setting tells senders, " is not accepting any mail," but the first and the third give the same bounce message: "not accepting mail from this sender." A lot of people there take meat-axe advice that blocking all mail from out- side AOL will prevent all viruses and all spam, so it's the way to go. They don't stop to think that it will also cut them off from their mailing list subscriptions or from those they wish to join. A complication is that the principal accountholder can set Mail Controls for subsidiary screen names. Often Mom or Dad decides that Junior or Princess must be shielded from the big, bad Internet and puts a block on mail to the offspring's screen name; then Benevolent Parent (1) says nothing to the younger generation, leaving it to come as a rude surprise; (2) says something misleading like, "AOL has a setting to keep people from getting email virus- es, so I turned it on for all of us;" or (3) explains it properly but the child does not understand the ramifications. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 01:57:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA27734; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA27724 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:32:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA24974 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id WAA10505; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29266 ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:42:29 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> References: from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:25:52 -0800 To: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Archives (was Re: Ever Been Sued? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:47 PM -0800 1/30/98, Richard Masoner wrote: > Have any other owners of archived lists had similar requests to remove > archived email? Yes. Because once places like Altavista started snooping through mailing list archives, spammers started sniffing through places like Alta vista. I had someone get spammed based on an address he used to post to a mailing list he hadn't been a member of for three years. I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, which stops the legitimate mega-crawlers. It won't stop someone who specifically targets my lists, but then, someone who specifically targets my lists I'll have trouble stopping, anyway (instead of snarfing the archives, just subscribe and quietly grab addresses until you feel you have enough and don't care what happens when I find out...) I occasionally get idiots who do this subscribe/snarf on a individual basis, and I practice quite hard-core scorched earth on them. But most of the folks who pull these stunts are lazy. They go for the global systems and fish there. By keeping my stuff out of them, I can protect my users about as reasonably as possible. I have also had, on two occasions, requests by users to expunge their accounts or complete postings. With the limited restriction of removing actively damaging or incorrect postings (i.e., things that are just plain old actionable wrong), I refuse -- one can't go and remove your name from the newspaper morgues just because you no longer want it known you said or did somethign, and I view archives the same way. So I decline those. People may regret they said something, but I don't believe they can pretend they didn't say it (but they shouldn't be spammed for saying it...) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 02:22:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA07306; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA26238 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lotharon.endicor.com (lotharon.endicor.com [198.17.18.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA04222 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tsarna@localhost) by lotharon.endicor.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA09436; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:47:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:47:29 -0600 (CST) From: Ty Sarna Message-Id: <199801301947.NAA09436@lotharon.endicor.com> To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Newsgroups: endicor.lists.list-managers In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600. Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article you write: > doing him a favor, is really small. Especially when the lawyer quotes > his hourly rate. This assumes the guy has or will get a lawyer. Many of these nut jobs think they're going to act "pro se", brilliant legal minds that they are. This defeats the "tell me you're lawyer's name and I'll put him in touch with my lawyer" (otherwise great because you don't even have to go out and hire a lawyer unless he does first -- he has to spend money first). Instead, he says he's going to act pro se, and so please tell him your lawyer's name (so now you're spending money, and he isn't -- assuming you don't have a lawyer already. Most list admins/newsgroup moderators/etc, being reasonably nice folks who try to stay out of trouble, don't). To the original poster, I hope this story will make you feel better, and give the other list managers a hearty laugh: I had a run in (my first, and I hope last) with one of the masters of this genre a few months back. I won't mention his name, but some of you may recognize him by his actions. He's one of the many who have threatened Chris Lewis, but on finding out Chris is in Canada he wasn't detered. Instead, he claimed that NAFTA allowed Chris to be prosecuted _criminally_ for violation of the US's First Ammendment. I believe this is what lawyers term a "novel theory of law". :-) Anyway, said guy prefers to threaten federal criminal rather than civil action. Much less worrysome, actually, since while he *might* find a shyster who'd be willing to take a civil case (payment up front, please!) or a court to let him go at it pro se, any prosecutor would just tell him to shove it. I was threatened with prosecution for the "Crimes of Conspiracy [to do what???] and Interstate Commerce [eh?]" because I kicked him off my system, for using it to harass and threaten action against a regional newsgroup hierarchy coordinator, for cancelling off-topic messages trying to gather support for a lawsuit against a city. That's right, three levels of legal action! Wheee! When I started ignoring him, his final message suggested he was going to have me subpoenaed to federal court. A few days later, I received the "sobpoena" by plain mail (in an envelope with no return address, and our address in large type that I'm sure was meant to be intimidating, but was so large it just looked silly). Included was a letter (again no return address), threatening seizure of all our computer equipment if I didn't reinstate his access. The "subpoena" was a second or third generation photocopy of the form for Summons in a Civil Action. It read: --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF [left blank] SUMMONS IN A CIVIL ACTION [left blank] CASE NUMBER: [left blank] V. [me and my employer, handwritten] TO: (Name and adress of defendant) Punitive damages: $500,000.00 Etc. [handwritten] [left blank] YOU ARE HEARBY SUMMONED and required to file with the Clerk of this Court and serve upon PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY (name and address) [left blank] an answer to the complaint which is hereith served upon you, within [blank filled in with "20", handwritten] days after service of this summons upon you, exclusive of the day of service. If you fail to do so, judgement by default will be taken against you for the relief demanded in the complaint. [fill-in lines for signatures by clerk, deputy clerk, and date left blank] [Opposite side to be filled out by process server left completely blank] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Needless to say, I wasn't quite shaking in my boots. "Oh no, I've been summoned to appear in United States District Court, for the District of... uh, what district was that again?" That was the last I heard from him. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 12:37:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA19413; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA19289 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16006 ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:29:03 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:19:05 -0800 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: postmaster@aol.com has not helped lately. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:10 PM -0800 1/31/98, David W. Tamkin wrote: > The last two times postmaster@aol.com has ignored me. All I get back is an > automated receipt but no action. Perhaps the requests come in so thick and > fast nowadays that one needs the fame or clout of a Chuq Von Rospach to get > action. I'd sincerely doubt I have clout at AOL. It's been a while since I've done this, so perhaps David is right and they're just gotten super busy (again. I've always found the AOL postmasters to have the right attitude, but like most support staffs, not enough resources...). -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 12:41:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA19421; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA19291 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16012 ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:29:05 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980131172130.00814bf0@hyperreal.org> from "Brian Behlendorf" at Jan 31, 98 05:21:30 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:26:05 -0800 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: the unidirectionality of AOL Mail Controls Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:43 PM -0800 1/31/98, David W. Tamkin wrote: > It would be overkill if the AOL user always noticed, read, understood, and > considered the warning. Not just a problem with AOL users, unfortunately. I just had to send a person to the instructions FOUR TIMES, getting more specific every time, to answer his "how do I sign up for digests" question. ("it's not there!" "Yes it is, I wrote it!"). After "look for the paragraph starting iwth "to sign up with digests,....", he wrote back and apologized for being dense.... Well meaning, but thought he knew what he was looking for and didn't. But I put it in there because it's a lot easier/faster to point someone at something that already exists than to answer it multiple times individually. And it helps avoid arguments over subjective rule making with the few folks who do that sort of stuff. Frankly, if I don't tell them, it's my fault. If they don't pay attention to what I tell them, it's not. And I don't feel terribly bad pointing that out to someone if necessary. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 2 15:57:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA10290; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980201-1) with SMTP id NAA13870 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20543; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:24:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199802022124.PAA20543@revnet1.revnet.com> X-Sender: mmead@revnet1.revnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:10:38 -0600 To: awest@george.m-w.com (Amy West), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marc Mead Subject: Re: hosting services info needed again In-Reply-To: <9801281618.AA00839@m-w.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Amy West wrote: >I asked for this info perhaps 4-6 months ago, so I apologize for the repeated >inquiry. > >We've got a list that first maxed out a NeXT on a ISDN line (at 2000 >subscribers) and now >a Dec Alpha on a T-1 (at 17,000 subscribers) (both using majordomo & sendmail). >We're having various porblems withour list hosting serives because of >the drain on their resources. > >We've gotten quotes from Lsoft before, and we're going to look at them again, >but is anyone here running or using a list hosting service that could >handle a list that's going to continue to grow? Like to 100,000 subscribers? > >---Amy West > Amy, Take a look at GroupMaster Express list hosting service from Revnet: http://www.groupmaster.com/html/hosting.html We currently host lists in the 100k+ range and the list server software (GroupMaster) is *much* easier to use than majordomo---with more powerful message scheduling features and bounce handling. Hope this helps, Marc Mead Revnet Systems http://www.revnet.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 04:52:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA26191; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 04:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pdns.axidia.fr (pdns.axidia.fr [193.105.74.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA12709 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by pdns.axidia.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA12157; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:28:09 +0100 Received: from hawai.axidia.fr ([10.10.10.32]) by silver.axidia.fr (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA318 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:04:33 +0100 Received: by hawai.axidia.fr with Microsoft Mail id <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:17:03 +0100 Message-Id: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> From: palmieri@axidia.fr (Palmieri Frank) To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: MLM hosts Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:17:02 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 08:56:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA09673; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03539 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA28526; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:19:23 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:29:36 -0500 To: palmieri@axidia.fr (Palmieri Frank), "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: MLM hosts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 6:17 -0500 2/3/98, Palmieri Frank sent everyone: >What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? Are you looking for server recommendations, or references for list- hosting services? - Vince From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 12:38:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA21476; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from peyak.nisto.com (peyak.nisto.com [207.34.64.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA21425 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.34.64.181] by peyak.nisto.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:10:42 -0700 X-Sender: grant@peyak.nisto.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:12:52 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. What I do instead is modify the email addresses (replacing the user id portion with "(suppressed)") so that spammers can't make use of them. If someone really need to get in touch with the original author, they can write to me (I keep an unmodified archive on a separate machine from my server). -- "Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now" http://www.nisto.com/ O- <*> From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 18:37:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01062; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from llmail.emailpub.com (llmail.emailpub.com [206.168.5.238]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA01013 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from professor.emailpub.com ([206.168.5.235]) by llmail.emailpub.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15152 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:40:22 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980203194711.00d1f38c@mail.emailpub.com> X-Sender: dan@mail.emailpub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:47:13 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dan Murray Subject: Re: hosting services info needed again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Amy West wrote: >I asked for this info perhaps 4-6 months ago, so I apologize for the repeated >inquiry. > >We've got a list that first maxed out a NeXT on a ISDN line (at 2000 >subscribers) and now >a Dec Alpha on a T-1 (at 17,000 subscribers) (both using majordomo & sendmail). >We're having various porblems withour list hosting serives because of >the drain on their resources. > >We've gotten quotes from Lsoft before, and we're going to look at them again, >but is anyone here running or using a list hosting service that could >handle a list that's going to continue to grow? Like to 100,000 subscribers? > >---Amy West > Amy, Email Publishing Inc. offers fulfillment/list hosting service for email lists of all sizes. In fact, our largest list is over a million subs, and many lists we handle are in the range you mention. We're at http://www.emailpub.com or contact me if I can help out. Regards, Dan Dan Murray Director of Marketing dan@emailpub.com 303-440-7550 Email Publishing, Inc. http://www.emailpub.com Providing premier email subscription management solutions From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 18:53:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA03768; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA03654 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA00886 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04210 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List Service Providers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980203194711.00d1f38c@mail.emailpub.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 22:52:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA00573; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA28574 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10780 ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:58:38 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:54:47 -0800 To: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:12 PM -0800 2/3/98, Grant Neufeld wrote: > At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, > > I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in > my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. That's why I'm building my own search engines for my archive -- so the archives are useful, but the information isn't globally propogated. Because, arguably, there's no reason for the archives to be in theglobal search engines. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 00:22:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA21147; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from geocities.com (mail4.geocities.com [209.1.224.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA20949 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from geocities.com (dy1-01.FortStJohn.tvs.net [204.244.93.1]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02651 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:00:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D82E58.494FC4AD@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:01:12 -0800 From: Superman Fan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIST MANAGERS Subject: coollist.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? -- Laurie deanandlaurie@geocities.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:24:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA22084; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA21985 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa18534; 4 Feb 98 6:49 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 04 Feb 98 06:44:41 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Archives From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 06:42:14 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 12:12 PM -0800 2/3/98, Grant Neufeld wrote: > > At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, > > > > I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in > > my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. > > That's why I'm building my own search engines for my archive -- so the > archives are useful, but the information isn't globally propogated. > Because, arguably, there's no reason for the archives to be in > theglobal search engines. There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search engines? mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:37:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA00799; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA00782 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id JAA26540 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:29:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802041529.JAA26540@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: coollist.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 09:30:41 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: "LIST MANAGERS" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 3:01 AM, Superman Fan wrote... >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? CoolList is a joke, even for a free service. The performance is absolutely terrible, the interface is obnoxious at best, and the ads are insipid and annoying. I'd sooner recommend someone run a list manually than use CoolList. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:52:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA04158; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA04151 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-61.netxn.com [205.180.106.186]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03242; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:15:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D88FEA.C3372F0C@netxn.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:57:30 -0800 From: Linda Allison Organization: little to none X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Bailey CC: LIST MANAGERS Subject: Re: coollist.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199802041529.JAA26540@quilla.tezcat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey wrote: > > On 2/4/98 3:01 AM, Superman Fan wrote... > > >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? > > CoolList is a joke, even for a free service. The performance is > absolutely terrible, the interface is obnoxious at best, and the ads are > insipid and annoying. I'd sooner recommend someone run a list manually > than use CoolList. We did switch back to running our list manually for a bit after trying coolist. You get what you pay for. Linda Kennedy 'Bluedog Mismanager' http://www.underthesun.com/Bluedog/Bluedog.htm From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 09:25:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA15465; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA15400 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y084o-0005uH-00; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:53:30 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980204165218.00821290@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:52:18 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is >closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't >robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search >engines? Only if they obey it. If spammer run their own bots this is hardly likely to be the case. Currently we just replace the email address with the "name". Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 10:24:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA00412; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA15058 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id LAA12848 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:11 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199802041652.LAA12848@panix.com> Subject: AOL spam controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:10 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of my subscribers asked to switch to digest a few days ago. Right away I began to get the bounce (below) back from AOL. She says she doesn't know which control is blocking the digests, but hasnt received one yet. Someone suggested to me it could be due to "parental" controls. either way, since I'm not fluent in AOL, there must be some way the subscriber can adjust this. I'd appreciate any suggestions at this point, and pointers, if there is an FAQ on these AOL control functions and they errors they cause. Danny Forwarded message: > From smtp@aol.com Mon Feb 2 18:36:49 1998 > Message-Id: <199802022336.SAA28617@mail1.panix.com> > from: smtp > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:25:50 EST > To: > Subject: Mail Delivery Problem > Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) > Mailer: SLUG [beta 1.3] > > > Sorry owner-ebikes-digest@ebikes.org. Your mail to rougir could not be delivered because rougir is not accepting mail with attachments > -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 10:34:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA00950; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA00714 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id KAA26897; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA34872 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:17:50 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:19:25 -0800 To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:42 AM -0800 2/4/98, Tim Bowden wrote: > There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is > closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't > robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search > engines? I don't know that this is middle ground -- that's what I'm doing. Yes, robots cuts out the search engines and other crawlers. Everyone else can get to my archives. And for those who need search engine capability, I'm adding it, but privately, so that this information doesn't end up in the global crawlers. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 11:22:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA08947; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA08911 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id NAA09442 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:02:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802041902.NAA09442@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 13:03:14 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: "List Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 10:52 AM, Danny Lieberman wrote... >One of my subscribers asked to switch to digest a few days ago. >Right away I began to get the bounce (below) back from AOL. > >She says she doesn't know which control is blocking the digests, >but hasnt received one yet. Someone suggested to me it could be >due to "parental" controls. either way, since I'm not fluent in >AOL, there must be some way the subscriber can adjust this. Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and pictures in mail." >I'd appreciate any suggestions at this point, and pointers, if >there is an FAQ on these AOL control functions and they errors >they cause. I suppose I could create a FAQ, though I doubt it would have very wide-reaching interest. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 14:11:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA13236; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA13224 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:58 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey said in response to a question from Danny Lieberman: | Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than | about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block | on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns | her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to | Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to | your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and | pictures in mail." Mail Controls can be set *only* by logging in under the master screen name? I knew that the user of the master name could set them for subordinate names, but I did not know that the users of the subordinate names could not set them for themselves. That's new information [to me anyway] and it changes a lot for the particular cases on my list. Thank you very much, Adam. Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it out as a rude surprise. An additional problem is that Mail Controls make no distinction between an item that came in with an attachment and a long plain-text message that AOL converted to a file with an attachment. That is just indefensible if you ask me. There appears, moreover, to be no way to prevent the conversion. I've asked several AOL users who consider themselves expert at its mail whether it could be prevented, and none have ever included an answer to that question in their responses. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 14:28:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19090; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA19057 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA73620 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:18:25 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980204211855.20782@impressive.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible >to anyone who might need it! Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, not enlighten. There's such a thing as overkill. And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues override distribution of my archives in that way. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 15:22:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA27498; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA27427 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA00631 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:00:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 17:01:10 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 3:36 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote... >Adam Bailey said in response to a question from Danny Lieberman: > >| Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than >| about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block >| on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns >| her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to >| Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to >| your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and >| pictures in mail." > >Mail Controls can be set *only* by logging in under the master screen name? Yes. >I knew that the user of the master name could set them for subordinate names, >but I did not know that the users of the subordinate names could not set them >for themselves. That's new information [to me anyway] and it changes a lot >for the particular cases on my list. Thank you very much, Adam. Welcome. >Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not >tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it >out as a rude surprise. Yup. Why bother informing our children when we can sneak around behind their back and pull their strings? But that's off-topic. >An additional problem is that Mail Controls make no distinction between an >item that came in with an attachment and a long plain-text message that AOL >converted to a file with an attachment. That is just indefensible if you ask >me. Agreed. If AOL's the one making the conversion, it shouldn't then smack you in the face with it. But I don't know if it's possible to make the system work the other way around. Probably not. >There appears, moreover, to be no way to prevent the conversion. I've asked >several AOL users who consider themselves expert at its mail whether it could >be prevented, and none have ever included an answer to that question in their >responses. No, it can't be prevented. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 16:17:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11485; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA11327 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA39164 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:58:02 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980204225630.21217@impressive.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:50:41 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:08 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >This problem can be handled by establishing clear policies about >archives and informing your users about these policies, and if >necessary by obfuscating e-mail addresses in online archives >to prevent them from being harvested by spammers. > >Of course, each user community is different, And, of course, there are no absolutes in how things are set up. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 16:22:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA05614; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA05591 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18591; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31120; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20059; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question To: adamb@tezcat.com (Adam Bailey) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not > >tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it > >out as a rude surprise. > > Yup. Why bother informing our children when we can sneak around behind > their back and pull their strings? My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched bread and low-fat peanut butter, either. Do you suppose we should tell him that the clock in the breakfast room is 3 minutes early so he gets to school on time?? -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 17:07:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA19121; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA18995 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.78.144.194] (lemond.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.144.194]) by eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04655 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:38:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> References: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:40:51 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kyle Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched >bread and low-fat peanut butter, either. Do you suppose we should tell >him that the clock in the breakfast room is 3 minutes early so he gets >to school on time?? >-- >Mike Nolan Yes, or don't be suprised when he lies to you about where he's been or takes the car without permission... Kyle From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 18:53:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA09406; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA05873 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id RAA01436; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8927 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1998 01:56:30 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 5 Feb 1998 01:56:30 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980204195432.00c5bd90@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:54:32 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question In-Reply-To: References: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:40 PM 2/4/98 -0800, you wrote: >>My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched [...] >Yes, or don't be suprised when he lies to you about where he's been or [...] Shouldn't a group of list managers know better than to continue a grossly off-topic thread like this? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 19:37:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA24143; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA24095 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21362; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:29 -0800 From: Berg Received: (from berg@localhost) by eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29146; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802050309.TAA29146@eskimo.com> To: dave@armchair.mb.ca Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Probably, but since we DO run lists, why should we be any different than any other list subscribers? ;) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 19:43:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA18560; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA18464 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id SAA06128; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:41:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:41:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible >to anyone who might need it! Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, not enlighten. There's such a thing as overkill. And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues override distribution of my archives in that way. I want both things. Accessability and privacy. I want any visitor to my webpage to be able to access the archives but I don't want search engines picking them up. Right now, I more or less have that. The archives are in the FTP area of my web space so the search engines don't get them. The path to them is clearly accessable from the web site. A friend is writing me a local search engine so people can pull up indivudual messages via keywords. Right now, they are arranged chronologically in files by month. Most are gzipped. Are there global search engines I have to worry about that do FTP sites? I know such things exist, but are they used much? Are they used by spammers? Will the existance of a local search program change anything? I don't even have room for all my archives gzipped (they are currently spread over 3 different accounts; the list has been running over 7 years) let alone a back up copy with full attributions, though I'm in the process of getting CD backups. A word about robots.txt. It doesn't work for most of us. I set it up and the search engines (altavista) still went to the pages, months later. I had blocked out an entire subdirectory and I know I did the logistics correctly. I asked around my ISP's local newsgroups and it turns out that you can only block directories if the robots.txt file is at the top level (i.e., if you have a custom domain). I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It would perhaps keep out searches of, say, http://www.mydomain.com/keepout/privatepage.html but how would it stop a search of the very same file which is also known as, http://www.best.com/~cnorman/keepout/privatepage.html ?? People on the groups mentioned alternatives to robots.txt where you put an HTML command on each page you don't want searched. But I'm afraid it didn't make any sense to me. Is there someone who could give me the code (I know HTML and could probably implement it with a brief explaination) to block searches of indivudual pages? If there is a way to block directories or FTP sites from search engines, I'd appreciate that very much. Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 21:07:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12022; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11877 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22096 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:08:10 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:04:50 -0800 To: cnorman@best.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:41 PM -0800 2/4/98, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Are there global search engines I have to worry about that do FTP sites? They don't search FTP sites per-se, but if you have urls pointing to stuff on an FTP site, then when the search engine wanders across your links, the data on the FTP site will be added by many of them. This isn't a protection from the search engines, unless you put a robots.txt on your ftp site (and do so via an HTTP daemon). > I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's > really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It should work if (and only if) is readable. If your virtual hosting doesn't allow for that, it won't. And it's also possible that places like Alta vista aren't honoring the Host: fields, and that could be causing problems.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 11:23:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28720; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA28690 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: another AOL Mail Controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An additional question about AOL's Mail Controls: Can the user of the subordinate screen name see on line what types of its mail and which addresses have been blocked by the master account, or is asking the user of the master account (and hoping for a truthful answer) the only way to find out? From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 13:23:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18340; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA18325 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 16:10:19 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Walkers List Moderator , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Trapping MIME content? Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9802051610.aa06802@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Would someone here be so kind as to break down these and explain exactly >what each one does? Some of us are regex-impaired. :) > >>taboo_headers << END >>/^Content\-Type\:\s+(?!text\/plain)/i >>END >> >>... though it might be too strict for your needs, in which case try: >> >>taboo_headers << END >>/^Content\-Type\:\s+multipart/i >>END Take a look at . Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 13:54:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA24986; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from list.audubon.org (www.audubon.org [38.242.205.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA24806 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.242.205.99] (38.242.205.99) by list.audubon.org (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.0B6B5910@list.audubon.org>; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:46:08 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chris Pepper Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi, Check out for the Robots Exclusion Standard. Short form: well-behaved robots look for /robots.txt (note -- this is a file at the top level of the server; they *DO NOT* look in every directory for files named robots.txt) for instructions before they start spidering sites. If you can get to your site via two different hostnames that give you differnet effective top-level directories, you'll need your exclusion entries in two different robots.txt files. To block people using URLs of the form , you'll need a robots.txt file in the same directory as the keepout directory. To prevent robots from following the URL , you'll need an entry in the main robots.txt file, adjacent to Best's home page. For this case, since you can't edit directly, you'll probably want to send a note to webmaster@best.com, asking them to create a file named robots.txt at the top level of their content tree containing these two lines: User-agent: * Disallow: /~cnorman/ You can also exclude specific pages (but not whole directories) with META tags -- check out the page at WebCrawler for details on this method. Chris PS-If you can get to your home directory via a full path, as well as by a user (tilde) path, you might want to exclude that as well. At 9:41 PM -0500 02/04/98, Cyndi Norman wrote: >A word about robots.txt. It doesn't work for most of us. I set it up and >the search engines (altavista) still went to the pages, months later. I >had blocked out an entire subdirectory and I know I did the logistics >correctly. I asked around my ISP's local newsgroups and it turns out that >you can only block directories if the robots.txt file is at the top level >(i.e., if you have a custom domain). > >I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's >really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It would perhaps keep >out searches of, say, http://www.mydomain.com/keepout/privatepage.html but >how would it stop a search of the very same file which is also known as, >http://www.best.com/~cnorman/keepout/privatepage.html ?? > >People on the groups mentioned alternatives to robots.txt where you put an >HTML command on each page you don't want searched. But I'm afraid it >didn't make any sense to me. Is there someone who could give me the code >(I know HTML and could probably implement it with a brief explaination) to >block searches of indivudual pages? If there is a way to block directories >or FTP sites from search engines, I'd appreciate that very much. -- Chris Pepper | National Audubon Society: Web & List Manager 212 979 3092 | From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 17:09:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA24150; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA08410 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tardis.Tymnet.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id OAA09471; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jms@localhost) by tardis.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06391; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199802052301.PAA06391@tardis.Tymnet.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > To prevent robots from following the URL > , you'll need an > entry in the main robots.txt file, adjacent to Best's home page. I sent mail to Cindy with the proper solution. Since her pages are served by BESTWWWD, the answer is to add one line to her "public_html/.bhtaccess" file: UserRedirect / http://www.mydomain.com/ It tells the server to perform the redirect for any URL that resolves to her directory and starts with "www.best.com/~". This feature appears to be unique to the BESTWWWD server. -Joe From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 19:07:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA07387; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA07167 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id VAA14900 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:05:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802060305.VAA14900@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: another AOL Mail Controls question Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 21:06:39 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/5/98 1:25 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote... >An additional question about AOL's Mail Controls: > >Can the user of the subordinate screen name see on line what types of its >mail and which addresses have been blocked by the master account, No. >or is >asking the user of the master account (and hoping for a truthful answer) >the only way to find out? Yes. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 19:53:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA11064; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA26301 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y0dSr-000ifFC; Thu, 5 Feb 98 18:24 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Poll/Voting Facility To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It has been suggested to me that this group might be interested in this piece of software. Although it was written around majordomo, the majordomo-specific part is small and isolated and the source code is included so adapting to any list-server would be a small job. Marilyn Davis ----- eVote 2.2 Released eVote is a freely available add-on to email list-servers that empowers the members of the list with the ability to poll each other. After installation of the software, the administrator is not involved. All participants have powers to open polls, vote, change their votes, and view each other's votes, if the particular poll was so configured. Participants who know the list's password have overriding powers to force the deletion of polls and removal of participants. The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely available for Linux systems only. eVote 2.2 is available at http://www.deliberate.com in both English and French. This version also provides a remotely controlled email petition service that ensures only one signature per email address, issues a receipt, provides facility to remove one's own signature, supports form-based signatures, and coordinates with remote web sites. Please see http://www.deliberate.com/aztec for an example. Contact: Marilyn Davis mdavis@deliberate.com http://www.Deliberate.Com (415) 493-3631 From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:05:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17476; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17468 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA24540 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03464; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:03:31 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9801310142.1.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:52:43 -0500 To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown), postmaster@aol.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Open Letter Regarding Spam Blocking Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 1:42 -0500 1/31/98, Bob Brown sent everyone: >OK, AOL... here's what I want you to do about this: Please fix your >mailer system so that your customers can't send mail *to* a domain >they've blocked. Give them a reasonable error message, one that >explains how to remove a block, and let them decide whether to keep >the block, but don't let them send me any more plaintive messages I >can't do anything about! Yup, people have called for this before. It makes a *lot* of sense -- which is probably EXACTLY the reason that AOL doesn't implement it. "No ... That's just what they'd be EXPECTING us to do." - Vince Sabio vince@humournet.com Automatically process bounces from mailing lists: From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:10:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17350; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17330 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA02876 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Open Letter Regarding Spam Blocking To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9801310142.1.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jan 31, 98 01:42:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Brown told us about his trials with AOL's Mail Controls: | *Then* they try to rezubscribe to one of the lower-volume lists, or | they complain that their zubscription stopped. One kind person wrote | to observe that our web page hadn't been updated lately and to inquire | whether I am OK. (I'm not. I have the flu.) I was touched by the | message, but I *can't reply to it*! Another one sends me a message | about once a month saying, "I did something wrong... I want to be back | on the list." I remember this person from high school, I had a crush | on her, but I can't help her because she has my mail blocked! I can't | even tell her why I can't help. My list attracts a lot of teenagers. AOL lets the principal owner of an account set Mail Controls for all subsidiary screen names, and one option refuses all mail from outside AOL. Often Mommy or Daddy gets persuaded that that setting is *the* cure for email viruses or spam and rushes to protect Junior or Princess from the big, bad Internet. Then the parent says nothing to the child so that the child doesn't know; or the parent says some vague thing about "AOL has a setting to keep your computer from getting a virus through it, so I turned it on for you;" or the parent even describes it properly to the child but the child doesn't understand the ramifications. | OK, AOL... here's what I want you to do about this: Please fix your | mailer system so that your customers can't send mail *to* a domain | they've blocked. Give them a reasonable error message, one that | explains how to remove a block, and let them decide whether to keep | the block, but don't let them send me any more plaintive messages I | can't do anything about! Agreed a thousand times over! I called for that months ago. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:20:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17369; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17354 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA27507 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (jad@bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.24]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA28669 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:09:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:09:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: List Managers Subject: Altering Archives (WAS: Re: Ever Been Sued?) In-Reply-To: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Richard Masoner wrote: > Have any other owners of archived lists had similar requests to remove > archived email? I run several lists, all of them archived, and I have to say that yes I've been approached to alter the archives by various subscribers. I've received several such requests over the years that I've run my lists, and I've only as yet allowed one such change. Most of the time, I politely tell them that they agreed to the archival of their messages when they read the letter of introduction and stayed zubscribed to the list. There was one case where I agreed to make the alteration, however. I run an internet-based fan club for fans of PJ Harvey. At one point, her management decided to join the mailing list to listen in on her fans' conversations anonymously. Said management wanted to send me a press release one day, and being new to the internet, they sent it to the list instead, giving everyone on the list a copy of a personal letter to me containing a bit of "tell them it's official, but not who it's from" information. I quickly informed them of their mistake, and told them the ramifications (loss of their anonymity on the list, et cetera). They politely thanked me for informing me of their mistake, and asked if I could alter the logged copy so that at least for people who didn't save the message at their end, the anonymity would be protected. After considering this at fair length, I went ahead and altered the archives, removing any indentifying information from that one message (putting in xxx@xxx for email, xxx.xxx for hostname, removal of signature, et cetera). In retrospect, I'd make the same decision today -- there would have been negative repurcussions for the site had I not taken care to attempt recovery of their anonymity, and we wouldn't have the same relationship with those people that we have now. Sure, we broke our own rules, but the site has benefitted from that transgression... Jason # "Jason A. Dour" # Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou. # Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNNM+s5o1JaC71RLxAQFFEwQApmoU14BrhxhFQOphyvBzvJBAkyvoXZMT CRAfHiy+9OCuPx6rlSlg5TshnYo1jC84aN4buTDQeapQNc0ZqpjkvqnSK7U+hsEm NufNm3a8lQapfyFJcodqMRcBnvn2fXcoMHi+Of5uZ47oRqGa9jeCIX0iL/PKj5yh HPigSwoWXcg= =TMg4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 7 09:20:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA18016; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from Nimrud.eet.bme.hu (nimrud.eet.bme.hu [152.66.72.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA17982 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: hosszu@nimrud.eet.bme.hu Received: from 152.66.72.97 (communio.hcbc.hu [193.225.109.1]) by Nimrud.eet.bme.hu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA32005 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:16:21 +0100 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:16:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199802071716.SAA32005@Nimrud.eet.bme.hu> X-Sender: hosszu@152.66.72.97 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Digest configuration Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Readers, I am a beginner in "majordomo-science". I run a lot of list, but I want to create digest. Could you send me some example: digest configuration file: e.g.: test-digest.config alias list: e.g.: /etc/aliases Could you send me a tip for an appropriate directory structure? My directories: /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/digest /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/test-digest.arhcive Any help that you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Gabor ----------------------------------------------------------- Gabor Hosszu, Associate Professor, Dept. of Electron Devices Tech. Univ. of Budapest, T:+36-1-463-4034, F:+36-1-463-2973 Address: H-1111 Budapest, Goldmann Gy. t. 3., Hungary From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 13:35:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA28082; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28063 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl4-53.gate.net ([199.227.20.244]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA215; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:30:11 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:30:11 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34e11e91.11319416@pop.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600 (CST), Mitchell Leben wrote: >Time for me to come out of the woodwork and ask a few questions. > >A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from >his account, then removed him from the list. He became the center of a >flame war, and caused many people to leave the list. People wrote to me >privately explaining they left because of him, or requesting he be removed >or they will leave. I did send this individual a warning message, which he >viewed as an attack. His on list behavior became increasingly rude and >abrasive, and I gave him the boot. We just went through something like this, but it was even more problematic because the person was, on the one hand a valued member of the list because of his technical acumen. On the other, he was rude, belligerent and bellicose. He spent a lot of time attacking the company that makes the software that is the subject of our list, sometimes for good technical reason, but his attacks often strayed into personal attack on the people at the company. We're close to them, and feel bad, but we are also under no control from them, and we all like that. An unfettered discussion actually helps them, though I am sure they wince a lot from the uncalled for personal attack. Last week, our listmember became an ex-listmember when he threatened to sue for "slander" someone else on the list who had questioned how this hothead had gotten the software in the first place. He didn't pay for it, and the exact nature of his ownership is in some doubt. When we asked him to retract the legal threat, he threatened us as well. He then farmed the list from his own archives and started accusing us in private mail of removing him because he has said unflattering things about the software. We made one statement about why he had been removed, and sat back and let the discussion rage. Our position was that he was welcome to threaten to sue people, but he wasn't going to do it on our list. He was welcome back if he'd retract the threats, apologize and agree to not use our list to threaten again. Also, we are trying to protect a space where there is a free and unfettered debate. This is not because we're under any obligation to do so, just because that's what we'd like. But that means we do have to protect the group against people who are litigious and want to suppress the debate through threats of defamation suits. In essence, this guy is soiling his own nest, and as somebody whose keyboard is more likely to get him in trouble than the average listmember, you'd think he'd understand our efforts. One of the ruminations he made was the "shopping center cases." (We avoided attempting to argue the law with him, but his choice of cases gave us great comfort). One of the spam cases, Cyberpromo v. AOL, found Cyberpromo trying a first amendment argument against AOL and quoting the "quasi-public" shopping center case: Logan Valley Plaza. The justices pointed to the Lloyds case as a limit to Logan Valley, and found that there was no state component in AOL, so the quasi-public cases don't apply. I saw this initial posting some time ago, and this thread has been helpful to us as we've been through our little teapot tempest. We haven't been sued so far, and it appears that after some initial beating, we've emerged as heros for providing the list in the first place, and stepping in to stop a barroom brawl that clearly had gone too far. So hang in there. We've gotten lots of supporting public and private notes, and the tormenters have pretty much fallen to just wondering why the hell we're willing to do all of what we do for free. And ya know...I don't know if there's a real good answer for that. - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:21:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09143; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA09135 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (smtphost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA08649 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from london.ijt.org (iwpr.org.uk) by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA01853 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 03:46:22 GMT Received: by london.ijt.org(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 802565A5.00063DF9 ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:03:29 +0000 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: IJT From: "Ashley Drees" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-Id: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:15:27 +0000 Subject: NT listserve Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:24:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06242; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06232 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA26016 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 04:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rebecca-sinclai (slip166-72-248-126.ri.us.ibm.net [166.72.248.126]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA64330 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:16:59 GMT Message-Id: <199802041216.MAA64330@out1.ibm.net> X-Sender: eclect01@netnation.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:15:42 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Reb Subject: Re: Coolist In-Reply-To: <199802040937.BAA07186@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:01:12 -0800 >From: Superman Fan >Subject: coollist.com > >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? I use SVList to manage my three email lists. No experience with CoolList as a server from that end, but from a user end, I do. And the experience wasn't pleasant. I got stuck on a list that would not let you unsubscribe. It was so bad that people who kept trying to unsubscribe ended up putting together a make-shift cc list to exchange ideas on how to go about getting off the list. In the end it took over a month. Looking back, it was funny. But only looking back. The people who'd gotten stuck on that list were adamant about never trying another list hosted there. On a personal level, I treat the place like the plague now -- no matter how interested I am in the subject, if it's hosted by CoolList, I won't subscribe to it. Reb http://www.eclectics.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:28:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06590; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06570 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11878 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22064 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:08:08 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980204165218.00821290@stingray.ivision.co.uk> References: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:02:01 -0800 To: Manar Hussain , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:52 AM -0800 2/4/98, Manar Hussain wrote: > Only if they obey it. If spammer run their own bots this is hardly likely > to be the case. If a spammer is sophisticated and motivated enough to search out archives and custom-surf them, then you can't stop them from harvesting addresses. They'll just subscribe to the list and harvest from it directly. Protecting your archives is a good thing. Protecting them more than you can protect the list itself is wasted energy. The reality is, if someone targets your list, all you can do is slow them down. Unless, of course, they're incompetent, which many of these slime are. But the good ones? They'll win. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to just harvest the global archives and not have to write the code to harvest lists individually (and find them, and....) -- so the trick is to not make your data available where they're harvesting. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:32:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06480; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06463 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02365 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.impressive.net (root@dialup-2229.lcs.mit.edu [18.23.2.229]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20424; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (gerald@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.impressive.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA21682; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:07 -0500 (EST) From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19980204225630.21217@impressive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: > > >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in > >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible > >to anyone who might need it! > > Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, > not enlighten. That's true in many cases, but that problem is handled well by search engines providing options to exclude mail/news archives from searches. (or you can add negative search terms yourself if they don't.) > And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues > override distribution of my archives in that way. This problem can be handled by establishing clear policies about archives and informing your users about these policies, and if necessary by obfuscating e-mail addresses in online archives to prevent them from being harvested by spammers. Of course, each user community is different, and some forums have a higher need for privacy than others. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:35:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05916; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05907 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA15778 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilkins (bollow@wilkins [129.132.146.146]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id PAA27717; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (bollow@localhost) by wilkins (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id PAA00522; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199802031450.PAA00522@wilkins> From: Norbert Bollow To: palmieri@axidia.fr CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> (palmieri@axidia.fr) Subject: Re: MLM hosts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Palmieri Frank wrote: > What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? Provided that you can afford it, the best solution will be to have a dedicated server, i.e. get a PC which will not need to be upgraded or modified as long as your mailing lists work well. This server can be located in the offices of some ISP where it'll profit from their excellent internet connection. You can protect your server from the risk of hard disk failures by using a method called RAID. This is short for "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks", and in addition to protecting you from data loss in increases performance. This does not require any expensive hard- or software. Simply get a modern PC with several hard disks and run Linux, see http://linas.org/linux/raid.html for details. (I would suggest software RAID 1.) Then hire a competent person to set up your mailing list(s) with archives, etc., exactly like you want them. Of course, all of this costs money... much more than what many ISPs charge for hosting a few mailing lists. But the solutions which they offer, while good enough for many purposes, will not be the 'best solutions' about which you have been asking. May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:37:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08107; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA08096 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA29048 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (vaden [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id PAA05392; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id PAA29287; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:39 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199802061439.PAA29287@vaden.math.ethz.ch> From: Norbert Bollow To: marilyn@deliberate.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (marilyn@deliberate.com) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Marilyn Davis wrote: > The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely > available for Linux systems only. Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is distributed as an executable only, with no source code available. Why should we trust your software? May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:50:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA13694; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA13679 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (mail.execpc.com [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id XAA09652 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:53:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (galaan-24.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.89]) by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14172 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:52:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34DE91C4.2822@execpc.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:19:00 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Coolist References: <199802041216.MAA64330@out1.ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reb wrote: No experience with CoolList as a > server from that end, but from a user end, I do. And the experience wasn't > pleasant. I got stuck on a list that would not let you uns*bscribe. Maybe I'm lucky. I tried to s*bscribe to 3 coollist lists several days ago and my subscription requests won't go through. My ISP sent back a non-fatal error; will keep trying for 5 days sort of message. The list-manager of another coollist list that I s*bscribe to reports that all messages to the list have been bouncing for the past week and his e-mail to them goes unanswered. GK From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:06:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA11338; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA11124 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y1o7O-000iefC; Sun, 8 Feb 98 23:59 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely > > available for Linux systems only. > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions as you wish. > distributed as an executable only, with no source code available. Why > should we trust your software? Source for all the user interfaces is with the release, certainly enough to assure you of the high quality and good intentions. Do you have a specific worry that I can speak to? * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! > Norbert. > > -- > Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM > Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ > > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:28:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA12935; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pentioum90.silverquick.com (mail.omegaweb.co.uk [194.205.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA01657 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.205.38.50] by pentioum90.silverquick.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ba390547 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:36:43 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980209071832.009a4820@mail.silverquick.com> X-Sender: gordon@mail.silverquick.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 07:25:44 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Gordon Burns Subject: Re: NT listserve Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 18:15 07/02/98 +0000 Ashley Drees said.... >Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? > You could try NtList part of the NT Mail suite. http://www.ntmail.co.uk We run many lists including a 1000 member 100 messages a day list as well as 350,000 weekly newsletter using NTList. Gordon From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:52:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA19132; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA19057 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id CAA17968 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:48 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id CAA02349; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:42 -0600 Message-ID: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:41 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Sun, Feb 08, 1998 at 11:59:05PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 23:59 -0800, 08 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is > > Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions > as you wish. You recommend that it be run as root even though it doesn't need to be? That gives me a lot of confidence. Ever hear of the principle of least priviledge? -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ Bus error -- please leave by the rear door. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 04:51:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA05535; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA05528 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:48:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199802090645.claire.98022451@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:45:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: NT listserve Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 98 at 18:15, Ashley Drees wrote: > Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? mailtraq : http://www.fastraq.demon.co.uk/ -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 09:23:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA28293; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA13065 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00158; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:16:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199802091616.KAA00158@revnet1.revnet.com> X-Sender: mmead@revnet1.revnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:06:03 -0600 To: "Ashley Drees" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marc Mead Subject: Re: NT listserve In-Reply-To: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:15 PM 2/7/98 +0000, Ashley Drees wrote: >Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? > GroupMaster: http://www.groupmaster.com UnityMail: http://www.unitymail.com Marc Mead Revnet Systems http://www.revnet.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 12:52:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA09062; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA08777 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y201P-000ielC; Mon, 9 Feb 98 12:41 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:41:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 9, 98 02:52:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aaron, Thanks for your sarcastic remarks, I -think-. :^) I'm never sure how to take sarcasm, even face to face, but I wouldn't lose confidence in the software because of *this*. The software author (me), who is admittedly obsessed with online democracy, believes that if you keep votes for your online community, it is the single biggest responsibility happening in your machine. This characteristic of the author is a good sign about the software. I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root because then only one password has access to the data files. But, you can do as you wish, of course. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > At 23:59 -0800, 08 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > > > > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is > > > > Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions > > as you wish. > > You recommend that it be run as root even though it doesn't need to be? > That gives me a lot of confidence. Ever hear of the > principle of least priviledge? > > -- > Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ > Bus error -- please leave by the rear door. > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 14:26:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28347; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA14303 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y20S6-00030L-00; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:09:18 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980209210805.00815200@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:08:05 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root >because then only one password has access to the data files. I haven't used your software so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick - but if anyone other than root can cause effect to a process (cause it to run, effect data that it reads etc.) that you run as root then I'd consider that a potential security rule. On the whole - never run anything as root unless you absolutely have to - create new users as required who can only do the things that need to be done for that task. Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 18:07:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03863; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03477 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA06307; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:19:00 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id TAA12808; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:18:54 -0600 Message-ID: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:18:54 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: Marilyn Davis Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: Marilyn Davis , list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Mon, Feb 09, 1998 at 12:41:43PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:41 -0800, 09 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I'm never sure how to take sarcasm, even face to face, but I wouldn't > lose confidence in the software because of *this*. I would. To me suggesting that software is run as root when there's no need shows that there is either little concern for security or little understanding of security, and makes me wonder what problems may be in the code itself. > The software author (me), who is admittedly obsessed with online > democracy, believes that if you keep votes for your online community, > it is the single biggest responsibility happening in your machine. > This characteristic of the author is a good sign about the software. > > I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root > because then only one password has access to the data files. It may be the most important thing running on the machine, but that doesn't mean it should be run as root. With it running as root, a bug in the software may allow access to everything on the machine; after a compromise you then need to reinstall everything before the machine can be trusted again. If the program runs as a dedicated user (which could be set up so that no password will allow access to the account), a hole only allows access to the voting data, so the consequences of a break in are much smaller. -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ A Linux machine! because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste! -- Joe Sloan From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 10 10:55:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA20895; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA20875 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y2Kfw-000ifUC; Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:44 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:44:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: marilyn@deliberate.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 9, 98 07:18:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aaron, > be trusted again. If the program runs as a dedicated user (which could > be set up so that no password will allow access to the account), a hole A ha! I didn't know about this. I'll fix it up. > only allows access to the voting data, so the consequences of a break in > are much smaller. But honestly, the code itself is good. I may not know so much about security but I know a lot about serving data. As I understand you, this fixes the machine's security, which admittedly is of less concern to me than vote security. Of course we haven't spoken yet about vote security. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > -- > Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ > A Linux machine! because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste! > -- Joe Sloan > From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 10 23:32:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA21418; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA21254 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id AAA15480; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:33:06 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id AAA27411; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:32:59 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: Marilyn Davis Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: Marilyn Davis , list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com References: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Tue, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:44:56AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:44 -0800, 10 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > But honestly, the code itself is good. I may not know so much about > security but I know a lot about serving data. Any time that a someone is able to pass data to a program operating with a priviledge that he/she has does not have, security should be one of the (if not *the*) primary concerns. And, that is the case here, a user feeds data to a program running on a machine that he/she doesn't have access to. There are some basic checks that definately should (must) be done to lessen the chances of a break in. Many of these checks are not necessary to ensure that the program operates correctly under normal conditions, and so are not done by someone who is not thinking about the security ramifications. > As I understand you, this fixes the machine's security, which admittedly > is of less concern to me than vote security. If root on the machine is compromised, so is the vote (and, quite possibly, much of the local network). The opposite is not true, therefore the vote security is actually less important (although maybe only slightly). -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 11 02:48:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA09318; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA25001 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y2Vvg-000ieIC; Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:45 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:45:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: marilyn@deliberate.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 11, 98 00:32:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks again Aaron, Norbert Bollow taught us about the '*' in the encrypted password field of the password file producing a new user that only root can access. This is just what we need and solves all arguments. There is no reason to chose a priority. I really can't blame us too much for not knowing this tidbit. Our man pages don't mention it that I can find. I found it in one book of man pages but it was very poorly documented and didn't say exactly what it is. Is part of Linux security *not* to document such an excellent security feature? :^) But we've tested it and we're on the road to better security. So thanks everyone for pointing out our error. BTW, if Norbert were to report the security bug to bugs@deliberate.com, I'd snail-mail him tickets to a party on Dec 31, 1999. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 11 07:45:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA02044; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA02034 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 11 Feb 1998 15:42:09 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id KAA27622; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id KAA05804; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980211104157.44809@leftbank.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:57 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Marilyn Davis Cc: Aaron Schrab , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, development@deliberate.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) References: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85 In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Tue, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:45:56PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Marilyn Davis (marilyn@deliberate.com): > > Norbert Bollow taught us about the '*' in the encrypted password field > of the password file producing a new user that only root can access. > This is just what we need and solves all arguments. There is no > reason to chose a priority. > > Is part of Linux security *not* to document such an excellent security > feature? :^) *choke* Try "man passwd". Oh hell, here's the relevant excerpt: Passwd is an ASCII file which contains a list of the sys- tem's users and the passwords they must use for access. The password file should have read access for everyone, which is ok because of the encryption, but write access only for the superuser. If you create a new login, leave the password field empty and use passwd(1) to fill it. A star or something like that in the password field means, that this user can not login via login(1). Now, admittedly, there's nothing in, say, the RedHat Users Guide that jumps up and says "hey! here's how to make a null user!" but then again it's sort of obvious from looking at the passwd file itself... -n -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 11:46:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA21011; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from infostreet.com (infostreet.com [207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA20967; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from babylon (babylon.instantweb.com [207.240.105.18]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12501; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:23:40 -0800 Message-ID: <01af01bd37eb$2daf0910$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> From: "Siamak Farah" To: , Subject: Fw: BOUNCE and Zombie Processes Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:19:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is an old question I have asked a zillion people, but have never >received a working answer. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a bug. > >I have a closed list. Only list members can post to it. Whenever someone >posts that is not authorized to do so, it generates a BOUNCE message. >However, instead of sending the bounce to the sender, it sends it back to >the list. Since the list itself is not authorize to send to itself, it >BOUNCES again. So on and so forth, till the email gets to be greater than >40k. Then a new series of messages. Result: Machine crawls and we get zombie >processes. > >This must be so simple, how can I get the bounce message to go to the >sender, not to the list? > >Please help a very frustrated sole. > >Siamak Farah >sia@infostreet.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 15:40:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA04262; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA04214 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28205; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:32:18 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:32:18 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, OK, so you block all of juno. Now the twit goes to get an account at yahoo (or the many other free web based email sites). Now what? Same twit, different domain, and no way to know exactly who it is. Sure you can block yahoo, but where does it end? This is a real problem, one with no real solution that I can think of. On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 12:25 AM -0800 1/31/98, Michael C. Berch wrote: > So take a user who decides to be a twit. you lock the account. They go > to juno, fill out the form, get another account. Sign up, start > mailbombing. > > Iterate until you get tired of screwing around with the dweeb, then do > the only thing you can. Lock out the domain. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 16:28:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA06540; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA06433 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA91912 ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:43:05 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:41:38 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >OK, so you block all of juno. Now the twit goes to get an account at yahoo >(or the many other free web based email sites). Now what? Yahoo answers its mail. It responds to problems. The problem ends. Juno doesn't. If the guy moves from Juno to hotmail, or juno to yahoo, or whatever, I can get help from those sites in dealing with him. Any site that acts like Juno, though, will get treated like Juno. >Sure you can block >yahoo, but where does it end? Usually, one hop away from Juno. Because I've had good success in getting help from other sites. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 16:40:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA15431; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:20:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15183 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA01206 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05541 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:24:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:24:04 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote: > OK, so you block all of juno. Now the twit goes to get an account at > yahoo (or the many other free web based email sites). Now what? Same > twit, different domain, and no way to know exactly who it is. Sure > you can block yahoo, but where does it end? > > This is a real problem, one with no real solution that I can think > of. There are several solutions: 1. Systematically freeze out all of the domains which provide free email accounts. 2. Punt the individual offenders as soon as they make a bad post. 3. Moderate all posts or only moderate the first half dozen or so posts from each new subscriber. 4. Require an application from new subscribers. Ask for real name, phone number and occupation. Ask a few simple questions which demonstrate an interest or possibly their skill level in the list topic. I use an application for one of my lists. IMHO, a simple application can be very effective. - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 16:43:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA06552; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA06431 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:39:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA92142 ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:43:02 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:39:59 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:25 PM -0800 2/12/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: >I have only blocked entire domains temporarily, usually to fix a technical >problem rather than block a user. Unfortunately, until Juno fixes their administrative setup, it's simply a time bomb. Someone can become a problem at any time -- and frankly, it usually happens when I'm already busy. They don't ask first. > Do you receive mail from other juno.com >users who wish to subscribe to your lists? How do you explain to a new >Juno user that she will suffer because of what some jerk did six >months ago? This is good example of one bad apple spoiling the lot. Some aren't receptive. Most are. I explain they need to talk to the Juno admins abou;t fixing the problem, because when they do, I'll remove the restriction. Most of them, frankly, simply tell me when they do writ the Juno admins, nobody ever answers. (my point exactly). chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 16:57:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA06141; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA06088 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28409; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:41:46 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:41:46 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Ty Sarna cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-Reply-To: <199801301947.NAA09436@lotharon.endicor.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Ty Sarna wrote: > To the original poster, I hope this story will make you feel better, and > give the other list managers a hearty laugh: Oh yes it did, thanks Ty! > When I started ignoring him, his final message suggested he was going to > have me subpoenaed to federal court. A few days later, I received the > "sobpoena" by plain mail (in an envelope with no return address, and our > address in large type that I'm sure was meant to be intimidating, but > was so large it just looked silly). Perhaps he should have used crayon, or letters cut from a newspaper. > Included was a letter (again no > return address), threatening seizure of all our computer equipment if I > didn't reinstate his access. The "subpoena" was a second or third > generation photocopy of the form for Summons in a Civil Action. It > read: > > Needless to say, I wasn't quite shaking in my boots. "Oh no, I've been > summoned to appear in United States District Court, for the District > of... uh, what district was that again?" Thanks for sharing this Ty. A feeble scare tactic I must say. Since he went to some measure of trouble to harass you, it is funny that he did such a poor job. > That was the last I heard from him. No word in a couple of weeks from my list member. He made his threats, I ignored him, and he went away. Thanks to all the comments on this list, I am better prepared to deal with the next looney. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 18:10:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA24084; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA24059 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA00924; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:07:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA29213; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:08:31 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben cc: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:32:18 -0600. X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:08:31 -0800 Message-ID: <29211.887332111@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrot e: >Chuq, > >OK, so you block all of juno. Now the twit goes to get an account at yahoo >(or the many other free web based email sites). Now what? Same twit, >different domain, and no way to know exactly who it is. Sure you can block >yahoo, but where does it end? > >This is a real problem, one with no real solution that I can think of. Actually, there is. My junk E-mail filter now includes some anti-forgery logic. If the domain name given in the return addresses of a messages doesn't seem to have any relationship to any of the domain names mentioned in the various Received: headers (as is the case for most forged spam), then the message gets bounced back to the sender with a polite note telling the sender that the message could not be delivered bacsue it looks ``suspicious'' and that the sender _can_ cause the message to be de- livered by sending it again, this time including a magic code in the Subject: header. If the sender does that, then the sender becomes automagically whitelisted for the specific recipient, and the sender will never have to go through this ``registration protocol'' again. (Subsequent messages from the same sender to the same recipient will be delivered without any special fuss.) P.S. Kids, don't try this at home. In order to make this all work right you have to have a really good E-mail header parser _and_ also additional code to look up MXes for various domain names. I happen to have both. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 21:31:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA07416; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07408 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13102 ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:31:16 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:02:56 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:24 PM -0800 2/12/98, murr rhame wrote: > 1. Systematically freeze out all of the domains which provide free > email accounts. I've got a simpler one: freeze out domains that cause problems *and* which I can't get any cooperation in resolving them. Problems happen. Good sites help fix them. Bad sites go away. And if no problems happen in the first place, I don't have to worry about it. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 23:28:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA13866; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:47:51 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA12352 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:20:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net ([204.119.177.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA29869 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from Default (pool029-max3.ontario-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.151.129]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26878 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:04:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.16.19980210230726.369f22be@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: sbrooks@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (16) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:07:26 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Sam Brooks Subject: Wanted; List Hosting Services Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I am looking for a list hosting service which will provide the following. 1) Majordomo Based Server 2) Automated *handling* of bounced messages 3) Web Interface for List Admin Duties 4) Web Interface for List Members Subs/unsubs/Archives, etc 5) Archival Storage 6) Ability to run lists under my own domain or subdomain. Currently, have 3 lists--the largest 400 members. Any suggestions/recommendations or whatever? Would appreciate hearing from providers as well as satisfied customers. Thanks for your help. Sam Brooks sbrooks@earthlink.net From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 23:35:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA14482; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA12519 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from infostreet.com (infostreet.com [207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA05949 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:27:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from babylon (babylon.instantweb.com [207.240.105.18]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA24262; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:37:14 -0800 Message-ID: <011e01bd371b$68f08600$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> From: "Siamak Farah" To: Cc: "siamak" Subject: BOUNCE and Zombie Processes Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is an old question I have asked a zillion people, but have never received a working answer. I have a closed list. Only list members can post to it. Whenever someone posts that is not authorized to do so, it generates a BOUNCE message. However, instead of sending the bounce to the sender, it sends it back to the list. Since the list itself is not authorize to send to itself, it BOUNCES again. So on and so forth, till the email gets to be greater than 40k. Then a new series of messages. Result: Machine crawls and we get zombie processes. This must be so simple, how can I get the bounce message to go to the sender, not to the list? Please help a very frustrated sole. Siamak Farah sia@infostreet.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 23:36:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA15937; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:15:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net ([166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA13729 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA01557 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA07397 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:52:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:52:34 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I've got a simpler one: freeze out domains that cause problems *and* > which I can't get any cooperation in resolving them. > > Problems happen. Good sites help fix them. Bad sites go away. > > And if no problems happen in the first place, I don't have to worry > about it. There is a fundamental difference with the free email sites and conventional service providers. Even if a free mailbox provider diligently evicts any spammer, the spammer has lost nothing. All the bums have to do is apply for another free mail box, with the same company or another company. When you get punted by an ISP, a university, or a legitimate business, you have lost something of value which you will have to pay to replace. I predict that the spammers will abuse the free mailbox providers for a few more months. When a majority of Internet sites have been forced to filter the free mailbox folks, there will be no point in having a free mailbox. Free mail boxes are a nice idea. There are several free mailbox providers who are trying to control the spam problem. When your worst punishment is to force someone to change to another freely given address on your system, you have no real leverage to stop abuse of your services. Most spammers could care less if they loose a free drop box. - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 12 23:40:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA14630; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA12529 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA13949 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME (slmel54p11.ozemail.com.au [203.108.203.123]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id GAA10814; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:09:56 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980212132039.376713a4@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: jjjacq@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:08:23 +1100 To: development@deliberate.com From: John Jacq Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Cc: Aaron Schrab , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:41 AM 2/11/98 -0500, Nathan J. Mehl wrote: >In the immortal words of Marilyn Davis (marilyn@deliberate.com): >> >> Norbert Bollow taught us about the '*' in the encrypted password field >> of the password file producing a new user that only root can access. >> This is just what we need and solves all arguments. There is no >> reason to chose a priority. >> >> Is part of Linux security *not* to document such an excellent security >> feature? :^) > >*choke* > >Try "man passwd". Oh hell, here's the relevant excerpt: > > Passwd is an ASCII file which contains a list of the sys- > tem's users and the passwords they must use for access. > The password file should have read access for everyone, > which is ok because of the encryption, but write access > only for the superuser. If you create a new login, leave > the password field empty and use passwd(1) to fill it. A > star or something like that in the password field means, > that this user can not login via login(1). > >Now, admittedly, there's nothing in, say, the RedHat Users Guide >that jumps up and says "hey! here's how to make a null user!" >but then again it's sort of obvious from looking at the passwd >file itself... > Thank you so much Nathan for this contribution, and for your kind help, I just wish all system administrators could be as understanding and sympathetic as you when they pass on knowledge that others do not have. May I keep your email address as future reference, after all it is my intention to try and install Linux in a couple of weeks, I'm sure you won't hesitate to help me if I get into difficulties :) John From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 09:02:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA28720; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA28691 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA05303; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA22064; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:25 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Terry Knab cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Terry Knab wrote: > I'm one of the administrators of nyx.net (a free type ISP in > Denver). We don't we have this problem. Why may you ask? Simple. > If you want an account with us, you have to send in a copy of your > ID (Driver's license, etc..) in order to get a fully working > account... Your registration method sounds good to me. I stand corrected. There is hope for free mail box servers if they use a similar registration technique. Raising the price of opening an account to the the cost of a photocopy and a postage stamp is a major improvement over instant-access, electronic registration. I am impressed with your efforts to curtail mail box abuse. I hope that others will follow your lead. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 09:10:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA00570; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from nyx.nyx.net (nyx.nyx.net [206.124.29.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA20329 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tknab@localhost) by nyx.nyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/esr) with SMTP id IAA10110; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:28:49 -0700 (MST) X-Nyx-Envelope-Data: Date=Fri Feb 13 08:28:49 1998, Sender=tknab@nyx.net, Recipient=, Valsender=tknab@localhost Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:28:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Knab X-Sender: tknab@nyx To: murr rhame cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reply: tknab@nyx.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, murr rhame wrote: > There is a fundamental difference with the free email sites and > conventional service providers. Even if a free mailbox provider > diligently evicts any spammer, the spammer has lost nothing. All the > bums have to do is apply for another free mail box, with the same > company or another company. When you get punted by an ISP, a > university, or a legitimate business, you have lost something of value > which you will have to pay to replace. > > I predict that the spammers will abuse the free mailbox providers for > a few more months. When a majority of Internet sites have been forced > to filter the free mailbox folks, there will be no point in having a > free mailbox. Free mail boxes are a nice idea. There are several > free mailbox providers who are trying to control the spam problem. > When your worst punishment is to force someone to change to another > freely given address on your system, you have no real leverage to stop > abuse of your services. Most spammers could care less if they loose a > free drop box. Hiyas: I'm one of the administrators of nyx.net (a free type ISP in Denver). We don't we have this problem. Why may you ask? Simple. If you want an account with us, you have to send in a copy of your ID (Driver's license, etc..) in order to get a fully working account. We've never had a problem with spammers using us as a drop box simply because we make it a little harder to get an account. I think if more free email providers eneded open registration/immediate activations, we'd have considerably less of a net-wide spam problem. I should also put the disclaimer in too that we don't permit novelty email addresses. First inital and last name (up to 8 characters) are our logins for the most part. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Terry E. Knab News Administrator Nyx Public Access Unix From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 09:58:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA16931; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [209.135.12.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA16690 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-21.netxn.com [209.135.13.50]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01670; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:39:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E48643.CD78D0D6@netxn.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:43:31 -0800 From: Linda Allison Organization: little to none X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: murr rhame CC: Terry Knab , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Terry Knab wrote: > > > I'm one of the administrators of nyx.net (a free type ISP in > > Denver). We don't we have this problem. Why may you ask? Simple. > > If you want an account with us, you have to send in a copy of your > > ID (Driver's license, etc..) in order to get a fully working > > account... > > In one word--BRAVO! Linda Kennedy 'Mismanager' Bluedog Societe` One hell of a pack of writers online! http://www.underthesun.com/Bluedog/Bluedog.htm From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 11:33:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA08443; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA08223 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.78.144.194] (lemond.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.144.194]) by eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20079 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:12:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:14:40 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kyle Subject: Re: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'm one of the administrators of nyx.net (a free type ISP in Denver). We >don't we have this problem. Why may you ask? Simple. If you want an >account with us, you have to send in a copy of your ID (Driver's license, >etc..) in order to get a fully working account. We've never had a problem >with spammers using us as a drop box simply because we make it a little >harder to get an account. I think if more free email providers eneded >open registration/immediate activations, we'd have considerably less of a >net-wide spam problem. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Terry E. Knab >News Administrator >Nyx Public Access Unix This brings up the question of certain programs such as Stealth Mailer. These programs somehow (I'm not sure how because I don't want to give such a company the $500 necessary to get a copy of the program to see how it works) gives itself a mail server domain name that doesn't exist. It then talks to another SMTP server, saying its passing along the mail, and then the mail goes on its merry way with no way to track it back to its source other than to the first server that accepted the mail for transfer. The original machine name never existed except for the moment it took to transfer the umpteen bajillion messages these spammers send out from the lists they buy from the same company. The sites usually hit are juno.com, aol.com, att.net, and uu.net for initial transfer. For some reason these companies don't verify hostnames before accepting mail from them. Beware, if you don't already do this, the spammers could source you as a transfer site. Kyle kyle@mgsw3.jpl.nasa.gov From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 13:48:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA29241; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA29080 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id MAA03174; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id NAA20085; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:51:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802132051.NAA20085@sportsurf.net> Subject: Re: Wanted; List Hosting Services Date: Fri, 13 Feb 98 17:01:46 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: "Sam Brooks" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, In your call for hosting services, you failed to mention your experience with Unix, the amount of time you want to spend setting up the service, your budget, topic areas, a pointer to your existing site/background info. >Any suggestions/recommendations or whatever? > >Would appreciate hearing from providers as well as satisfied customers. For example, I'd be interested in getting you started, as would others here I bet, if your topic areas match those that I'm targeting, (participation sports, fitness, wellness for me). For 3 lists, you might check out best.com or prodigy (are they still hosting and developing list things at prodigy with on-going shake-ups?). But, you can't run under your own domain for free. My service provider for MJ stuff is is bluehill.com. Another one that is very swift with support - even for MJ - is esosoft.com. ---- As my own call for service -- I'm looking for Usenet access. My dial up ISP bonked out on its NNTP - and I don't get usenet now with the virtual server. Ideas welcomed directly or to the list. -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher E-books work in classrooms! mrauterkus@sportsurf.net Nagano Torch Burns Bright with Winter Games Discussion lists: http://SportSurf.Net/SUBSCRIPTIONS/about/Nagano -------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 15:02:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA26728; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from nyx.nyx.net (nyx.nyx.net [206.124.29.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA26677 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:57:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tknab@localhost) by nyx.nyx.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/esr) with SMTP id QAA25201 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:02:47 -0700 (MST) X-Nyx-Envelope-Data: Date=Fri Feb 13 16:02:47 1998, Sender=tknab@nyx.net, Recipient=, Valsender=tknab@localhost Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:02:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Knab X-Sender: tknab@nyx To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Free Mailbox Abuse [Was: Ever Been Sued?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Reply: tknab@nyx.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Kyle wrote: > > > This brings up the question of certain programs such as Stealth Mailer. > These programs somehow (I'm not sure how because I don't want to give such > a company the $500 necessary to get a copy of the program to see how it > works) gives itself a mail server domain name that doesn't exist. It then > talks to another SMTP server, saying its passing along the mail, and then > the mail goes on its merry way with no way to track it back to its source > other than to the first server that accepted the mail for transfer. The > original machine name never existed except for the moment it took to > transfer the umpteen bajillion messages these spammers send out from the > lists they buy from the same company. The sites usually hit are juno.com, > aol.com, att.net, and uu.net for initial transfer. For some reason these > companies don't verify hostnames before accepting mail from them. Beware, > if you don't already do this, the spammers could source you as a transfer > site. > This is called relaying. It is caused by older sendmail configs that allow _anyone_ to connect and send mail from a server. We've configured our sendmail for this not to be an issue. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Terry E. Knab News Administrator Nyx Public Access Unix From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 15:31:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA03058; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA03016 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:26:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from default ([12.68.131.143]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA22142 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:31:45 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980213183112.00fe93f0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: editorman@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:31:12 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Steve Subject: Looking for mailing list hosting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I have a 68,000 person weekly announcement list (24K), looking for hosting. Looking for something that can be run without unix experience. Please write, thanks, Steve From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:17:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA18874; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA18740 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02871 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:21:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28074; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:25:32 -0600 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:25:32 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > situations escalated where I had to get really nasty, but one of them > is the reason why I no longer accept postings from juno.com.... I have only blocked entire domains temporarily, usually to fix a technical problem rather than block a user. Do you receive mail from other juno.com users who wish to subscribe to your lists? How do you explain to a new Juno user that she will suffer because of what some jerk did six months ago? This is good example of one bad apple spoiling the lot. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:21:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA11265; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA18216 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:41:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id QAA05782; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA17813; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:15:49 -0600 (CST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: "We do not relay" errors Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 13 Feb 1998 18:15:49 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk OK, I'm quite happy that sites are tightening up on relaying. But it seems that some sites go a little to far. Lately I've been receiving a large number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces from various sites telling me that they don't relay. Well, that's great, but the address I'm trying to deliver to is almost always right there in their domain, sometimes even on the same machine. Now this could be because of my setup; instead of being delivered by one single mail server, outbound mail service is split among a number of hosts at my site. (So the message passes from the list server host to one of several outbound delivery hosts and finally to the destination site.) But if this is really enough to trigger relaying errors then something is really wrong. Have other folks been seeing these kinds of errors, too? Are that many sites just having teething pains and screwing it up the first time? Or is what I'm doing really considered illegal relaying? -- Jason L Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-3486 - 660PGH - 94 PC800 System Manager: University of Houston Department of Mathematics "I survived while Ruby died in Jackie's trashy fantasy..." From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:34:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA15576; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:23:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA18461 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from stl-17lssc (STL-17LSSC.ARMY.MIL [150.211.90.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA28677 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:57:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.new-list Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:32:33 CST Reply-To: mark david mcCreary From: mark david mcCreary Subject: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group To: NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ml-owners on mail-list.com Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group This mailing list is focused on trading useful information amongst owners and moderators of mailing lists. Topics covered will include such areas as Reducing time spent on administration of your list Whether advertising is appropriate for your list Locating advertisers and determining how to charge Dealing with problem subscribers Finding new subscribers that fit your user profile To subscribe, send a blank message to ml-owners-on@mail-list.com Owner: mark david mcCreary mdm@mail-list.com ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. URL: http://LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU/archives/new-list.html From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:38:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA15624; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:23:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA18520 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-251-18.NCR.COM [153.64.251.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA27665; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from bill-houle (bill-houle.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.200]) by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10487; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:55:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802121955.LAA10487@ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM> X-Sender: bhoule@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:52:44 -0800 To: "Siamak Farah" , , From: Bill Houle Subject: Re: Fw: BOUNCE and Zombie Processes In-Reply-To: <01af01bd37eb$2daf0910$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It sounds like either the moderator (in list.config) or -request (in aliases) is pointing back to the list. --bill At 11:19 AM 2/12/98 -0800, Siamak Farah wrote: > > >>This is an old question I have asked a zillion people, but have never >>received a working answer. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a bug. >> >>I have a closed list. Only list members can post to it. Whenever someone >>posts that is not authorized to do so, it generates a BOUNCE message. >>However, instead of sending the bounce to the sender, it sends it back to >>the list. Since the list itself is not authorize to send to itself, it >>BOUNCES again. So on and so forth, till the email gets to be greater than >>40k. Then a new series of messages. Result: Machine crawls and we get >zombie >>processes. >> >>This must be so simple, how can I get the bounce message to go to the >>sender, not to the list? >> >>Please help a very frustrated sole. >> >>Siamak Farah >>sia@infostreet.com > From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:49:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA21049; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA20996 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:41:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03428; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:46:34 -0800 From: Berg Received: (from berg@localhost) by eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16668; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:46:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:46:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802140446.UAA16668@eskimo.com> To: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've only gotten a couple, but then, my list is pretty small. I have seen them though, and they're pretty annoying... From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:52:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA20295; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:39:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA19932 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl5-52.gate.net ([199.227.131.52]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA100; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:43:41 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: Jason L Tibbitts III Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:43:07 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34e52050.26549506@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 13 Feb 1998 18:15:49 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >OK, I'm quite happy that sites are tightening up on relaying. But it seems >that some sites go a little to far. Lately I've been receiving a large >number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces from various sites telling >me that they don't relay. Well, that's great, but the address I'm trying >to deliver to is almost always right there in their domain, sometimes even >on the same machine. ... >Have other folks been seeing these kinds of errors, too? Are that many >sites just having teething pains and screwing it up the first time? Or is >what I'm doing really considered illegal relaying? I have seen none of this...and I can't imagine what is prompting those messages. I pretty much closed down relaying at our site...and expected a bunch of complaints but got none... We are set up here so that we are the ultimate authority for our domains and we will take mail for our domain even if it is for an invalid user. - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 20:56:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA13648; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA13381 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:41:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA25093 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA19745 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:47:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:47:25 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Relay Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Terry Knab wrote: > This is called relaying. It is caused by older sendmail configs > that allow _anyone_ to connect and send mail from a server. We've > configured our sendmail for this not to be an issue. :) With a few notable exceptions, most experienced ISP's don't except relays from unknown sources. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of new systems going online around the world every month. Most of the spam I receive personally has been relayed through overseas (non-USA) systems. As P.T. Barium said, "There is a sucker born every minute." In many cases, the first indication of a security problem is when the unsuspecting mail system is flooded by relay spam to the point of failure. Relay spam on a large scale is are relatively new problem. The big time spammers switched to relay when folks started filtering spam domains and IP addresses on a large scale. One of the most famous spammers had bought about one hundred domain names which were all promptly filtered along with his two Class C address blocks. For now, one of the few effective routes for massive spamming is to use a third party relay. With luck, the relay hole will also be plugged pretty soon. Most sysadmins take action quickly when someone steals their resources and makes them look bad at the same time. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 21:02:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23784; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:58:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA23702 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:58:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (mail.execpc.com [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id XAA21379 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:03:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (galaan-22.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.87]) by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA21066 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:03:06 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34E51D62.79D@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:28:19 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Query: On-Line Directories of Mailing Lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all! I am attempting to compile a comprehensive list of mailing lists (with how-to-s*bscribe info) on a particular topic (antiques). This list will be posted on a non-commercial web site. I am familiar with Liszt, and have used it in the past to locate mailing lists of interest. Are there other on-line directories of mailing lists that I should be aware of? Thanks in advance, GK From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 22:49:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA02980; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:39:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA02886 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA32048; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:43:17 -0600 Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:43:17 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Yahoo answers its mail. It responds to problems. The problem ends. Juno > doesn't. Point taken. I have not had the pleasure of dealing with the admins at Juno, thanks for the warning. > >Sure you can block > >yahoo, but where does it end? > > Usually, one hop away from Juno. Because I've had good success in getting > help from other sites. OK, thanks for the explanation. I suppose the longer I do this, the better I will get at playing hardball. BTW I have been running lists for ~two years, and it seems every month the percentage of clueless zubscribers goes up and up. I suspect the nasties have been there all along. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 23:02:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA22652; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:58:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA29400 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07268 ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:34:04 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:09:46 -0800 To: mark david mcCreary , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Um, how does this differ from list-managers, and from listmom-talk? And how many mailing lists about running mailing lists do we really need? Why is there *another* one? I don't see the logic, myself. Isn't this territory covered? or should I consider starting one, too? -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 23:17:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA19480; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA19282 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15085 invoked from network); 14 Feb 1998 06:57:27 -0000 Received: from flyingfish.armchair.mb.ca (HELO flyingfish) (198.163.115.26) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 14 Feb 1998 06:57:27 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980214005645.0068ef94@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:56:45 -0600 To: Jason L Tibbitts III From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:15 PM 13/02/98 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: >Lately I've been receiving a large >number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces from various sites telling >me that they don't relay. [...] > >Now this could be because of my setup; instead of being delivered by one >single mail server, outbound mail service is split among a number of hosts >at my site. [...] > >Have other folks been seeing these kinds of errors, too? I've been seeing this, too. I also deliver outbound list email via a local relay, but I'm wondering if these bounces aren't a result of sites that compare the 'To:' address in the header against RCPT address, or something similar. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 23:20:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA29515; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA29356 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07260 ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:34:03 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:07:34 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have only blocked entire domains temporarily, usually to fix a technical > problem rather than block a user. Oh, and FWIW -- I've only *permanently* banned two domains, other than the blatant spamhouses (that's a different issue, I'm talking for abuse-of-list issues). One was Juno, which I've already explained. The other was a BBS in Canada, where I had continuing problems with an abusive user on my lists, and when I tried talking to the admin about his behavior, the admin was even more abusive than the user was. I decided that this was the kind of site I really didn't feel like offering my services to for any price, so I nuked it. Hopefully, everyone was happy, except for the original abusive user, who went underground with forged accounts and started harrassing my users via private e-mail instead. Oh, and it took me about six months, but I caught him, too. He was p8ssed when I locked all of THOSE out, too. And, funny, shortly thereafter, all his accounts died. As far as I can tell, he's not on the net. Or at least, nowhere in his old haunts, or hiding really well.... (I *told* him when we started that farce that I was really patient. He didn't believe me...) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 23:26:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA29516; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA29350 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:26:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA07254 ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:34:01 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:03:33 -0800 To: Jason L Tibbitts III , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:15 PM -0800 2/13/98, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > OK, I'm quite happy that sites are tightening up on relaying. But it seems > that some sites go a little to far. Lately I've been receiving a large > number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces from various sites telling > me that they don't relay. If it's intermittent, then it's because they're trying to do a DNS lookup and it fails. Arguably, since DNS is unreliable in many parts of the net, things should bounce as a 400 for retry instead of a 500 death note. But folks don't do that. The sites that do this a LOT, I've found, have real problems with DNS and/or connectivity on THEIR end. I'm never surprised to see a few of these with a small site like plaidworks without a lot of parallel connectivity, but I see lots of this from my Apple site -- and if you can't resolve my hostname out of Apple, it ain't Apple's fault... > Now this could be because of my setup; instead of being delivered by one > single mail server, outbound mail service is split among a number of hosts > at my site. As long as it's not the DNS to your site failing, or your link failing so outside hosts trying to DNS lookup you fails intermittently, it ain't your fault. And we aren't even starting to talk about sites that install buggy or bogus spamblocking. Those happen, too. > Have other folks been seeing these kinds of errors, too? Are that many > sites just having teething pains and screwing it up the first time? Or is > what I'm doing really considered illegal relaying? Oh yeah. I see it all the time. Especially overseas, where DNS is a lot flakier. It's one reason why when I *did* install spamblocking on my sites, I made sure it reported to me what it's doing, so if I start seeing lots of it, I know something's bogus. It's probably not your fault. And as more folks install spamblockers on their sites, more of them install it badly. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 13 23:47:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA26910; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26892 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15322 ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:46:17 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:41:29 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Relay Spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > This is called relaying. It is caused by older sendmail configs > > that allow _anyone_ to connect and send mail from a server. We've > > configured our sendmail for this not to be an issue. :) > > With a few notable exceptions, most experienced ISP's don't except > relays from unknown sources. This is a different issue. You're talking about mail relayed through 3rd party sites without permission. The original question was about mail from his site being rejected as a third party relay when it in fact isn't. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 03:47:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA25437; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 02:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA13856 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:03:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (grev.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.108]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29917; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:02:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980214011121.009bc7e0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 01:11:21 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Cc: mark david mcCreary , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:09 p.m. 02/13/98 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Why is there *another* one? I don't see the logic, myself. Isn't this >territory covered? or should I consider starting one, too? Let's all start one! Actually, as I see it, it's probably a decent marketing tool, if you're starting up a mail list hosting service and want to be able to promote it. It's not necessarily as a good a thing for the community as for the host, though. -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 05:02:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA11716; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA11704 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:35:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA00370 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA00206 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:41:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:41:08 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Relay Spam In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > This is a different issue. You're talking about mail relayed through > 3rd party sites without permission. The original question was about > mail from his site being rejected as a third party relay when it in > fact isn't. I think the order was the other way around but the thread has definitely gone to list mail being rejected as relay. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 05:05:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA13875; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA13868 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 04:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA01819 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA01494 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:58:23 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 13 Feb 1998, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > OK, I'm quite happy that sites are tightening up on relaying. But > it seems that some sites go a little to far. Lately I've been > receiving a large number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces > from various sites telling me that they don't relay. Well, that's > great, but the address I'm trying to deliver to is almost always > right there in their domain, sometimes even on the same machine. The "we do not relay" error may be because your home site has been filtered by the target site or vice versa. I noticed that you are posting from an edu site. I've seen plenty a spam relayed through various edu sites. If your postmaster did not block the relay spam in a timely manner, other sites may have put your site in their filter. Send an individual email directly from your personal account to one of your subscribers who gets the "we don't relay" bounce. If you get the same error as you get from a list distribution, your site has been filtered by them or they have been filtered your site. Note that the filter error looks very similar if the site your are trying to send mail to has been filtered by your local postmaster. Read the complete bounce message carefully to determine which system sent it. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 05:17:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA14754; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 05:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA14706 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 05:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA02939 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02400 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:11:18 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:11:18 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980214011121.009bc7e0@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Kynn Bartlett wrote: > Actually, as I see it, it's probably a decent marketing tool, if > you're starting up a mail list hosting service and want to be able > to promote it. > > It's not necessarily as a good a thing for the community as for the > host, though. I run the listproc at my site. We also have a listowners mailing list here. My listowners list is only open to local listowners. The local listowner list has about two dozen subscribers and very little traffic. We only discuss issues which are unique to our server. I agree that there are already too many general purpose list manager manager lists. OTOH, an admin list specifically for your server does no harm. - murr - Vnet Listproc Wrangler From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 07:47:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA24739; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA24732 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 07:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11297 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:48:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA13484 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:48:35 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08593 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:48:32 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802141548.JAA08593@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Relay Spam (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:48:32 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > This is called relaying. It is caused by older sendmail configs > > > that allow _anyone_ to connect and send mail from a server. We've > > > configured our sendmail for this not to be an issue. :) > > > > With a few notable exceptions, most experienced ISP's don't except > > relays from unknown sources. > > This is a different issue. You're talking about mail relayed through > 3rd party sites without permission. The original question was about > mail from his site being rejected as a third party relay when it in > fact isn't. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the change in focus in this thread. Because I have a slow link to the net, I relay the majority of my list traffic through my ISP, but because they were used as an UNAUTHORIZED relay point for some spammers last November or so, they're on Paul Vixie's 'known spam origination point' list, and some of my traffic is getting bounced back. At this point my fix is to alter my sendmail setup to do direct SMTP connections to sites that reject my mail when relayed, but of course this requires I learn about the site first. I rather liked the idea of looking for the 'from' domain in the Received-By headers (including MX variants), but unfortunately I appear to have deleted that piece of mail. I'd be interested in more details, this sounds like a useful addition to my mail gateway system or my personal e-mail filter. And as I understand it my list traffic would NOT get rejected by such a filter, because it HAS my domain in the Received-By headers. Here's a question for those with more anti-spam expertise than I have. For several weeks in early January my firewall system (Linux) was displaying some kind of 'no source route to host' errors on the console, with IP addresses that appeared to be in the Compuserve domain space, among others. I know this was some kind of attack, but I'm not sure exactly what. What was it? A second question: If someone were to use my site as a spam relay, would that show up in the syslogs? I've not seen any indication of outbound e-mail traffic from unknown users or from outside locations. -- Mike Nolan nolan@tssi.com From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 11:32:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA05606; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:29:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA05589 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:29:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl7-56.gate.net ([199.227.131.183]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAB213 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:32:04 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:31:25 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34e8f102.2991351@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:09:46 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Why is there *another* one? I don't see the logic, myself. Isn't this >territory covered? or should I consider starting one, too? I joined it, as a kind of a "what-the-hell," but I wondered the same thing. I got a note back that it will be put in place sometime this week. Maybe I'll start one too! Or better yet, maybe I'll start a list whose function is the announcement and discussion of the other lists that consider list-owner issues. Recursion is a funny thing, recursion is. - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 12:32:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA12555; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:22:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA12548 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup09ip17.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.34.81]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24578 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:27:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:27:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com In-reply-to: References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Um, how does this differ from list-managers, and from listmom-talk? And > how many mailing lists about running mailing lists do we really need? One IS needed just for listowners. I've been on quite a few without finding the types of discussions I'm looking for: majordomo-users: For those who run majordomo on servers. majordomo-workers: For those concerned with developing the majordomo software. list-managers: Does NOT allow discussion of specific software. Someone was recently chastised on this list for asking a majordomo question. What the hell good is that? I manage a few majordomo mailing lists, but don't run a server and I'm not involved in re-writing majordomo. None of the above lists apply. I've seriously considered starting such a list myself. ...Bob PS - What's "listmom-talk" and where do I find it? From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 12:47:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA13323; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA13316 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:44:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id MAA10875; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:49:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E60381.93DDE71E@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:51:25 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: bish@azstarnet.com Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Bish wrote: > One IS needed just for listowners. I've been on quite a few > without finding the types of discussions I'm looking for: > > majordomo-users: For those who run majordomo on servers. > > majordomo-workers: For those concerned with developing the > majordomo software. > > list-managers: Does NOT allow discussion of specific software. > Someone was recently chastised on this list for asking a majordomo > question. What the hell good is that? > > I manage a few majordomo mailing lists, but don't run a server and > I'm not involved in re-writing majordomo. None of the above lists > apply. I've seriously considered starting such a list myself. I'm not exactly sure what you mean about the majordomo-users list. It is very definitely for listowners who have Majordomo-based lists, whether or not they are the site admin and/or run the server themselves. I don't know how long you subscribed for, but the typical question on majordomo-users is something like "How do I do ___?" where "____" is often "make a closed list", "require confirmation for subscriptions", "block out a particular domain", "filter out spam", etc. Those are listowner question, no? There are also a number of software/server-based issues, like how to set up Majordomo, and the nature of a number of (somewhat cryptic) error messages from sendmail, etc., but they're typically no more than half the traffic. Historically, at the time the lists were set up, the vast majority of Majordomo list owners were also site admins who installed and maintained the software themselves. I don't know if this is still true, but it is hard to draw a firm distinction between listowner issues and site/server issues when it comes to Majordomo. As for not discussing specific list server software issues on list-managers, that's a long-time rule, and a courtesy for those who do not run the package involved. List-managers' readership is split among the users of a number of packages (as well as those who administer their lists manually), and low-level technical questions about particular packages just aren't appropriate here. -- Michael C. Berch list-manager for list-managers and the majordomo-{users|workers} lists mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:02:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA14036; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA14021 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:56:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup09ip17.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.34.81]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05374 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:01:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802142101.OAA05374@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:01:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com In-reply-to: <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't need a bunch of traffic about how to configure majordomo > control files...especially when there is a place for that elsewhere. Yeah, WHERE??? ...Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:06:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA13416; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA13408 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:48:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl7-56.gate.net ([199.227.131.183]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA212; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:51:32 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: bish@azstarnet.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:50:06 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> In-Reply-To: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:27:29 +0000, "Bob Bish" wrote: >list-managers: Does NOT allow discussion of specific software. Someone was >recently chastised on this list for asking a majordomo question. What the hell >good is that? I don't run majordomo, but there are lots of common issues about the nature of the network, attempts by ISPs to anti-spam "by the numbers" that catch mailing lists, etc. I don't need a bunch of traffic about how to configure majordomo control files...especially when there is a place for that elsewhere. - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:11:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA13948; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA13923 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:55:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup09ip17.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.34.81]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04789; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802142100.OAA04789@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: mcb@postmodern.com Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:00:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <34E60381.93DDE71E@postmodern.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm not exactly sure what you mean about the majordomo-users list. > It is very definitely for listowners who have Majordomo-based lists, whether > or not they are the site admin and/or run the server themselves. I don't know > how long you subscribed for, but the typical question on majordomo-users > is something like "How do I do ___?" where "____" is often "make a closed > list", "require confirmation for subscriptions", "block out a particular > domain", "filter out spam", etc. Those are listowner question, no? I was on it for maybe 6 months (maybe more). All I ever saw were sendmail patches and other server-side discussions. I never got any answers to questions about the majordomo config file (which I needed at the time, but eventually figured out for myself through trial-and-error). Maybe I'll give it another try. It can't hurt. I sure find very little useful info (to me) on this list. ...Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:17:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA14354; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA14338 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5740 invoked by uid 24); 14 Feb 1998 21:07:16 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980214125714.008a1cf0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:57:14 -0800 To: jtlist@pigsfly.com, Jason L Tibbitts III From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <34e52050.26549506@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:43 AM 2/14/98 GMT, Jerry Trowbridge wrote: >I have seen none of this...and I can't imagine what is prompting those >messages. The problem is this: DNS for domainx.com says host.foo.net is an MX, but host.foo.net isn't internally configured to recognize "domainx.com" as a domain is can accept. This happens more frequently than it should because sometimes those with DNS control over domainx.com and those with mail configuration control over host.foo.net aren't the same people or don't communicate effectively. Or sometimes they are the same people, and they simply don't keep it straight. A less error-prone solution to this problem would be to allow mail daemons to trust DNS, and if they're listed as an MX for a domain, accept the mail. If they're the best-preference MX, treat the mail as local. If they're not best-preference, accept it and queue it for the best-preference. That way mail administrators wouldn't have to maintain lists of domains they are local for, and domains they are backup-MX for. The threat? People say this could be used to get around anti-spam anti-relay measures, but I just don't see that. Someone could configure their DNS to list your system as a backup MX without your knowlege, but that same capability can't be used by a spammer when they're sending to domains they don't have DNS control over. It's not a panacea, but for some administrators it'd be a good solution. Keeping an eye on relayed mail volume vs. local mail volume would be adequate to make sure you're not being abused. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:20:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA15879; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:16:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA15861 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id NAA27014; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:21:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:21:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802142121.NAA27014@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: editorman@mindspring.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980213183112.00fe93f0@pop.mindspring.com> (message from Steve on Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:31:12 -0500) Subject: Re: Looking for mailing list hosting (review of best.com) Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:31:12 -0500 From: Steve Hi, I have a 68,000 person weekly announcement list (24K), looking for hosting. Looking for something that can be run without unix experience. A couple people have been asking this question and someone else mentioned my ISP, best.com. So I thought others might find it useful if I gave a review of best.com for hosting mailing lists. I hope other people will provide similar information for different hosts. Background: I've run the Immune Mailing List for over 7 years. Most of that time it was at weber.ucsd.edu as a manually run list. The only thing it did automatically was to forward posts to the list. I've been with best.com for over years. I switched my list over a little more than a year ago. Best provides mailings lists for free to anyone with an account on their system. There are currently no limits on number of lists or traffic, though that may change (and they may reject excessive numbers now, I don't know). The software they use is called BestServ. They used to have majordomo but decided to write their own instead. It's fairly decent software with all the basic features but, as you grow and develop more needs, it's incredibly frustrating since a lot of features are simply not available. The commands are easy but different from all other software so users make tons of mistakes. You must use this software and may not run lists off your account directly (via procmail or anything else). BestServ has: digests and regular lists plus post-only status; option for posts from subscribers only; option for authenication of functions; option for moderation of functions and posts; auto removal of any address that bounces 4 days in a row (no way to make exceptions) BestServ lacks: no-post status (the only ways to stop someone from posting is to moderate the list or unsubscribe them); user or domain banning (no matter how many times you kick someone off, they can always return); the ability to see bounce messages Support is practically nil. There is a local USENET group, best.majordomo, for listowners to talk. But, unlike every other service on best, there is no staff person reading the group (as far as we can tell). Tech support people don't know how to answer BestServ questions. It's next to impossible to get help from other staff. There is a good FAQ for all the tech stuff, but it's not updated so a couple features aren't documented. You have to read best.majordomo to find these things out. Fortunately, the software almost never breaks (and when it does, it gets fixed). Turnaround time for posts ranges from acceptable (as little as 30 minutes, but usually 1-2 hours) to outragous (as long as 4 days). The very long times are not common (though they increase when other parts of the net are down, especially Mae-West and AOL). Average times are 12-24 hours, although we'll often have a few weeks here and there with turnarounds averaging 4-6 hours. Best is not the place for a very time-sensitive list. Turnaround time for list commands is fast, a minute or two. How much UNIX do you have to know? None. All commands are done via email using any mailer you wish. This is a bit of a pain if you're tweaking the info or config files, but works fine for subscription issues. Who has access? The list must be started by someone with an account at best, but it can be moderated by anyone in the list of moderators (set in the config file by the listowner). So you can do everything you wish from any account. You never have to log into best. There is password protection. Domain names? No, this is a problem for many. Your list name is immune@lists.best.com (assuming you're list is called "immune"). You can't use a custom domain name. Costs? A Best account costs $30/month with a $30 set up fee. For the money you get a dialup PPP line (San Francisco Bay Area local numbers only) and a UNIX account with 25 megs of web/ftp space plus 20 megs of other disk space. You get access to a web (and ftp) server with full cgi. There is a huge news feed, irc (with multiple connections and bots allowed), FreeBSD Unix with tons of available programs, and low load averages. Accounts with more disk space or allowed web activity cost more (same setup). Support for most account activities is pretty good. Non Profit special: this is the best thing going here I'd say. If you are a registered non-profit organization (need proof), you can get a full account with all the perks for half the monthly fee and no setup costs. I've got one and have helped two other orgs set one up. Disclaimer: I have been recommending best.com for 2 years. A short while ago they (finally) started giving a finder's fee to customers who produce lasting referrals. I won't turn down any finder's fees (one month of free service) but I will make the recommendations regardless. I hope this has been useful. I can answer any other questions for people. Best's homepage is http://www.best.com/ For more on mailing lists, go to http://www.best.com/faq Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:32:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA15989; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA15970 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id PAA26962 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:22:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802142122.PAA26962@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:22:25 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/14/98 7:27 AM, Bob Bish wrote... >list-managers: Does NOT allow discussion of specific software. Someone was >recently chastised on this list for asking a majordomo question. What the >hell good is that? I don't know of a single major mailing list system that doesn't have a list for its administrators/owners. Majordomo, LISTSERV, Listproc, Lyris: they all have them. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:35:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA16533; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA16516 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:22:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl7-56.gate.net ([199.227.131.183]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAE217; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:27:50 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: bish@azstarnet.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:27:04 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34f20b8c.9785921@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> <199802142101.OAA05374@polaris.azstarnet.com> In-Reply-To: <199802142101.OAA05374@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:01:51 +0000, "Bob Bish" wrote: > Yeah, WHERE??? Right HERE! Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM serves the following lists: bounces For email addresses that have been bouncing firewalls Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems firewalls-digest Discussions of Internet "firewall" security systems gca-announce Announcements for Great Circle Associates customers list-managers For people who manage Internet mailing lists list-managers-digest For people who manage Internet mailing lists majordomo-announce Announcements about the Majordomo package majordomo-docs For people working on Majordomo documentation majordomo-users For people using Majordomo majordomo-workers For people extending or developing Majordomo psap-reunion For alumni of the Project for the Study of Academic Prec - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:47:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA17508; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:35:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA17486 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id PAA02286; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:40:42 -0600 (CST) To: bish@azstarnet.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 14 Feb 1998 15:40:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Bob Bish"'s message of Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:27:29 +0000 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "BB" == Bob Bish writes: BB> majordomo-users: For those who run majordomo on servers. [...] BB> I manage a few majordomo mailing lists, but don't run a server and BB> I'm not involved in re-writing majordomo. That makes you a majordomo-user. BB> None of the above lists apply. Incorrect. Majordomo-users is the place. If you were there and didn't see any list-owner-type questions then perhaps you were just skimming or you hit a dry spell. I see lots of list-owner-related questions that have nothing to do with server running or installation there every day; I even answer about a third of them. A quick glance at this month's archive shows a bit under half of the questions are related to list owner issues. - J< From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 13:50:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA17424; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA17349 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAB00343 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:41:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA11962 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:41:05 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:41:05 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Software Support In-Reply-To: <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Jerry Trowbridge wrote: > I don't need a bunch of traffic about how to configure majordomo > control files...especially when there is a place for that elsewhere. I agree that I would rather not see technical questions about Majordomo or any other specific software on the list-manager list. On the other hand, if the other Majordomo [tm] lists are primarily for site managers and software developers, perhaps there should be a list specifically for Majordomo [tm] listowners. I subscribe to a list for Listproc [tm] which deals with both listowner and site manager issues. I presume that most other software packages have similar lists for configuration issues and such. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 14:02:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA19451; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.16.2.21] (brent-3.corp.covad.com [172.17.3.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA19313; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@honor.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:01:54 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: Software Support Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:41 PM -0500 2/14/98, murr rhame wrote: >On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Jerry Trowbridge wrote: > >> I don't need a bunch of traffic about how to configure majordomo >> control files...especially when there is a place for that elsewhere. > >I agree that I would rather not see technical questions about >Majordomo or any other specific software on the list-manager list. On >the other hand, if the other Majordomo [tm] lists are primarily for >site managers and software developers, perhaps there should be a list >specifically for Majordomo [tm] listowners. The list for Majordomo listowners and site managers is called Majordomo-Users, and has existed since the software was first released. Majordomo-Workers was created later, as folks other than myself started developing future releases of Majordomo. >I subscribe to a list for >Listproc [tm] which deals with both listowner and site manager issues. >I presume that most other software packages have similar lists for >configuration issues and such. > > >- murr - That's pretty much a description of the Majordomo-Users mailing list. I don't believe that there's really much use or demand for separate Majordomo-related lists for list owners and site managers. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Internet/intranet training and consulting, Brent@GreatCircle.COM specializing in network design and security. Great Circle Associates, Inc. Visit us at http://www.greatcircle.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 15:02:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA24235; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA24228 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:59:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.impressive.net (root@dialup-2229.lcs.mit.edu [18.23.2.229]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15908; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (gerald@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.impressive.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA01466; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:54:49 -0500 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:54:48 -0500 (EST) From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: Bob Bish cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group In-Reply-To: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <19980214225350.1255@impressive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Bob Bish wrote: > PS - What's "listmom-talk" and where do I find it? C'mon man, this is the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY! http://www.infoseek.com/ http://www.altavista.digital.com/ Why waste our time when you can waste a computer's time instead? Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 15:17:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA24250; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA24243 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.impressive.net (root@dialup-2229.lcs.mit.edu [18.23.2.229]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15864; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:01:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (gerald@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.impressive.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id RAA01459; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:53:47 -0500 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:53:46 -0500 (EST) From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19980214225029.1255@impressive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Um, how does this differ from list-managers, and from listmom-talk? I'm guessing that it differs in that list-managers has lots of experienced mailing list managers on it and useful discussion, while the others... don't. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 15:21:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA23516; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:48:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA23481 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup11ip48.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.35.112]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA11847 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:53:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802142253.PAA11847@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:53:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: mailing list managers lists Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com References: <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> In-reply-to: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Responding to several at once: > I don't know of a single major mailing list system that doesn't have a > list for its administrators/owners. Majordomo, LISTSERV, Listproc, Lyris: they > all have them. Of course, my server, mailinglists.org has one, but I'm the most experienced person on it. > Incorrect. Majordomo-users is the place. In theory, it should be. I'll give it another chance. > I agree that I would rather not see technical questions about > Majordomo or any other specific software on the list-manager list. On > the other hand, if the other Majordomo [tm] lists are primarily for > site managers and software developers, perhaps there should be a list > specifically for Majordomo [tm] listowners. That's EXACTLY what I've been saying. ...Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 15:32:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26171; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26144 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:30:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup11ip48.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.35.112]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24967 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:34:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802142334.QAA24967@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:34:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com References: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> In-reply-to: <19980214225350.1255@impressive.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm guessing that it differs in that list-managers has lots of > experienced mailing list managers on it and useful discussion, > while the others... don't. > > Why waste our time when you can waste a computer's time instead? Nice *%$&#!@ attitude! ...Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 15:47:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA26828; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA26821 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11618 ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:42:54 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> References: <199802121957.LAA28677@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:21:34 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:27 AM -0800 2/14/98, Bob Bish wrote: > PS - What's "listmom-talk" and where do I find it? -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 16:17:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA01625; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:07:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from polaris.azstarnet.com (polaris.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA01568 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from Pbish (dialup16ip55.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.37.183]) by polaris.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA06986 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:11:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802150011.RAA06986@polaris.azstarnet.com> X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ From: "Bob Bish" Organization: http://www.humvee.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:11:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: I've seen the light! Reply-to: bish@azstarnet.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk OK, I'll concede the infinite knowledge of the members of the list-managers list, which means that you people are right (not me, of course, I'm just plain stupid) and everything else is wrong. My biggest list is for owners of Hummers/Humvees. Up until now, I've left it up to the individual listmember to make use of the "delete" key to skip threads which aren't of interest, but you have shown me how wrong this is! I have now declared that discussions of a Hummer's engine are irrelevant. We are too busy discussing the transmission, transfer case, differentials, suspension, etc. to waste our time looking at questions pertaining to the engine! ...Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 18:47:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08720; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08711 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14594 ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:40:05 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802150011.RAA06986@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:32:54 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: I've seen the light! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:11 AM -0800 2/14/98, Bob Bish wrote: > OK, I'll concede the infinite knowledge of the members of the >list-managers > list, Nice one, Bob. I am touched to the quick. But remember. He who makes fun of his elders better be humble next time he asks for advice. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 19:02:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08736; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08729 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:33:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13834 ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:40:08 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980214225350.1255@impressive.net> References: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:36:43 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny , Bob Bish From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:54 PM -0800 2/14/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: > > PS - What's "listmom-talk" and where do I find it? > > C'mon man, this is the INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY! Heck, even simpler. The standard for a list is -request. If a list doesn't support it, I think it's broken. I just assumed people on a list-administration list would have a basic clue on how to get information about lists. Silly me. (I won't even get into doing something advanced like browsing www.skyweyr.com....) -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 19:17:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12516; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA12488 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (ip35-159.bur.primenet.com [207.218.35.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08450; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980214190443.008d4420@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:04:43 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Cc: mcb@postmodern.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199802142100.OAA04789@polaris.azstarnet.com> References: <34E60381.93DDE71E@postmodern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:00 p.m. 02/14/98 +0000, Bob Bish wrote: > I was on it for maybe 6 months (maybe more). All I ever saw were sendmail >patches and other server-side discussions. Which six months? I'll look through the archives, and I'm sure I'll find you PLENTY of discussions about list owner level topics. I'll betcha a donut. >I never got any answers to >questions about the majordomo config file (which I needed at the time, but >eventually figured out for myself through trial-and-error). I'll betcha two donuts that your answers could be found in either the FAQ or the list archives. --Kynn -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 19:32:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12555; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA12496 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (ip35-159.bur.primenet.com [207.218.35.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08457; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980214190934.008dcc20@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:34 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199802142334.QAA24967@polaris.azstarnet.com> References: <19980214225350.1255@impressive.net> <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:34 p.m. 02/14/98 +0000, Bob Bish wrote: >> I'm guessing that it differs in that list-managers has lots of >> experienced mailing list managers on it and useful discussion, >> while the others... don't. >> >> Why waste our time when you can waste a computer's time instead? > Nice *%$&#!@ attitude! Yeah, Oskoboiny, who the heck do you think you are? Mr. Bish obviously needs to be spoonfed. Perhaps a "newbie-listowner" list is in order? Of course, lots of non-newbies probably would avoid it like the plague -- but hey, then _I_ won't have to hear it, at least. -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 19:37:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12831; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA12795 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:10:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (ip35-159.bur.primenet.com [207.218.35.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08454; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980214190737.008e0580@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:37 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980214225029.1255@impressive.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:53 p.m. 02/14/98 -0500, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> Um, how does this differ from list-managers, and from listmom-talk? >I'm guessing that it differs in that list-managers has lots of >experienced mailing list managers on it and useful discussion, >while the others... don't. I'm on a couple lists where the topics, when they appear, tend to talk about how to do "zubzcriber exchanges" or advertisements from list to list. However, that's not why I run _my_ lists, at least; my mailing lists are public services for community use, not something that I feel needs a lot of "promotion" (announcements, yes, but promotion, no) -- the lists are here to be used, but I don't get any extra thrill (or $$) if a bazillion people join up. --Kynn -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 14 19:41:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12604; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA12513 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (ip35-159.bur.primenet.com [207.218.35.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08461; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:07:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980214191607.008db3b0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:16:07 -0800 To: bish@azstarnet.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: I've seen the light! Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199802150011.RAA06986@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:11 p.m. 02/14/98 +0000, Bob Bish wrote: > My biggest list is for owners of Hummers/Humvees. Up until now, I've left >it up to the individual listmember to make use of the "delete" key to skip >threads which aren't of interest, but you have shown me how wrong this is! > I have now declared that discussions of a Hummer's engine are irrelevant. >We are too busy discussing the transmission, transfer case, differentials, >suspension, etc. to waste our time looking at questions pertaining to the >engine! Dude, if you're going to be a list owner, learn how to follow the list's (written or unwritten) charter, and don't whine like a stuck pig when you're referred to the correct forum. No one gives a damn what you do on your hypothetical hummer list. However, this list, list-managers, is not the same kind of list as yours. Your analogy is flawed (as you seem to be), since a more appropriate comparison would be: Hi, welcome to the four-wheel list! This list is for talking about fun ways to use our four wheel drive cars, socializing between other 4WD owners, and discussing issues such as where enjoy our hobby and what we like about it. We ask that list users keep questions specific to certain makes of cars, such as how to repair a Hummer or the internal workings of a Bronco, off the list and on one of the many lists devoted specifically to those makes/models of automobile. The four-wheel list is a general list, and so we ask that you post messages of interest to a general audience -- thanks for your cooperation! Now, hopefully that's in terms you can understand. If not, and you don't see why your whining on list-managers is pretty damn pathetic, I'm afraid there may be _no_ hope for you, my friend. -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 09:48:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07176; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07168 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25449 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:10:37 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199802151710.LAA25449@unicom.com> Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:10:36 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199802140446.UAA16668@eskimo.com> from "Berg" at Feb 13, 1998 08:46:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I've only gotten a couple, but then, my list is pretty small. I > have seen them though, and they're pretty annoying... Yes, it is an annoyance. The alternative, however, is much worse. Mailers closing down because they are overwhelmed by spam from unauthorized sources. Torrents of spam relaying through unsecured hosts. According to a recent study by the Internet Mail Consortium, about 49% of the Internet sites have implemented protections against unauthorized relay. That's how bad this problem is -- nearly half the Internet has reconfigured itself in a few months time. Anybody who has been around the net for a while knows how difficult it is to get people to upgrade. The fact that half the Internet has done so is an awesome indication of how significant this problem is. It is not always an easy task to institute unauthorized relay protection. Stopping sendmail from relaying, for instance, is a lot more complicated than it ought to be. Moreover, if you make a small slip-up in the process, you can end up with these sorts of "we do not relay" errors. So, the next time you see a "we do not relay" error, you can do one of two things. You can bitch about it. Or, you can _thank_ the site for working to reduce spam, but point out they made a small goof in their setup. I'm sure they would appreciate the notice. This is off-topic for this list, but there has been some misleading information posted. I'll be glad to take it to email. If anybody wants to know more, please visit the page. If anybody out there is a network manager and needs assistance securing their mail host against spam relay, please email me at my address. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 11:33:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA16335; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA16328 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 11:30:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04271; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:35:08 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199802151935.NAA04271@unicom.com> Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors To: rogerk@QueerNet.ORG (Roger B.A. Klorese) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:35:08 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Roger B.A. Klorese" at Feb 15, 1998 09:46:16 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger B.A. Klorese writes: > On Sun, 15 Feb 1998, Chip Rosenthal wrote: > > So, the next time you see a "we do not relay" error, you can do one > > of two things. You can bitch about it. Or, you can _thank_ the site > > for working to reduce spam, but point out they made a small goof in > > their setup. I'm sure they would appreciate the notice. > > How do you propose to do that if they won't accept your mail? If you cannot figure it out for yourself, write to me when you get such a bounce and I will be delighted to help you. I'm serious ... I am paid to spend my time helping people with these problems. My employer probably would find this to be time well spent. Or, we can continue whining and complaining about the problem, and see if that helps. > Are you > suggesting that I should spend my time and money phoning a remote site > administrator for not providing service to his own customers? Uh, no. Was I unclear in my message? -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 16:33:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA25122; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:23:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA24974 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 16 Feb 1998 00:27:23 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id TAA08712; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id TAA09236; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:27:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980215192721.31875@leftbank.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:27:21 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: bish@azstarnet.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group References: <199802142027.NAA24578@polaris.azstarnet.com> <34eb032a.7639454@nexus.pigsfly.com> <199802142101.OAA05374@polaris.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85 In-Reply-To: <199802142101.OAA05374@polaris.azstarnet.com>; from Bob Bish on Sat, Feb 14, 1998 at 02:01:51PM +0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the immortal words of Bob Bish (bish@azstarnet.com): > > I don't need a bunch of traffic about how to configure majordomo > > control files...especially when there is a place for that elsewhere. > > Yeah, WHERE??? Uh, it's known as majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. Use it, live it, love it. -n -- The life of a sysadmin is always intense! Nathan J. Mehl --- The LeftBank Operation nmehl@leftbank.com -- http://www.leftbank.com A Global Internet Company. http://www.gi.net From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 19:47:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA04425; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA04406 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:36:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12742 invoked by uid 24); 16 Feb 1998 03:41:08 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980215193003.00850630@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:30:03 -0800 To: Todd Vierling From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:56 PM 2/15/98 -0500, Todd Vierling wrote: >On Sat, 14 Feb 1998, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > >: A less error-prone solution to this problem would be to allow mail daemons >: to trust DNS, and if they're listed as an MX for a domain, accept the mail. >: If they're the best-preference MX, treat the mail as local. If they're >: not best-preference, accept it and queue it for the best-preference. That >: way mail administrators wouldn't have to maintain lists of domains they are >: local for, and domains they are backup-MX for. > >This is truthfully not an adequate solution. There are many reasons to have >outbound mail relays that do _not_ accept incoming mail (hence not an MX for >a domain) and many e-mail address redirectors (such as Pobox, which I use) >and people that use multiple ISP's and only one mail address--if you require >mail to be relayed through a domain's own MX's, you will lose. I'm >currently in a verbal fight with the admins at Xerox (where I work) about >this. > >If this is what you do, you lose more valuable mail than you gain in a lack >of spam. You're talking about something else completely different. You're talking about relaying outgoing mail - I'm talking about relaying incoming mail through a backup MX. As for relaying outgoing mail: if you're sending a message from within Xerox, from an IP number that only an employee could be using, with a From: of "tv@pobox.com", I don't see any problem with Xerox's mail servers relaying your mail. That is to say, I don't see a reason why they would refuse to do that; effectively the weak "authentication" is the IP address. Doing so is not incompatible with the solution I suggested above. Surely you don't mean Xerox should let a dialup netcom user relay mail from pobox.com through Xerox's smtp servers, unless that user is somehow authenticated... On a related topic, why doesn't SMTP have a "redirect" response code, i.e. the equivalent of the 301 or 302 response codes in HTTP? If a user has set up a .forward, it makes more sense to me to have the user's MTA make one attempted and one actual delivery rather than one delivery and then the forwarding agent make a delivery. Seems that we could build some new anti-spam mechanisms if redirection were the norm. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 20:03:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA05362; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA05355 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27799 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:01:40 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199802160401.WAA27799@unicom.com> Subject: SMTP forwarding [Was: "We do not relay" errors] To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:01:39 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980215193003.00850630@hyperreal.org> from "Brian Behlendorf" at Feb 15, 1998 07:30:03 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Behlendorf writes: > On a related topic, why doesn't SMTP have a "redirect" response code, i.e. > the equivalent of the 301 or 302 response codes in HTTP? It does. See RFC-821 section 3.2. FORWARDING. 551 User not local; please try I think the question you wanted to ask is why isn't it supported better? :-) -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 20:18:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06590; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:10:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA06583 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:10:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA18060; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:14:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:14:03 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Jason L Tibbitts III cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I see the same type of bounce from my lists as well. I run a single sendmail server, with majordomo on the same machine. Often the bounces stop in a few days, so I assumed there was some configuration going on at the other end of the line. On 13 Feb 1998, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > Have other folks been seeing these kinds of errors, too? Are that many > sites just having teething pains and screwing it up the first time? Or is > what I'm doing really considered illegal relaying? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 20:48:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA10271; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA10238 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08802 ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:46:36 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802160401.WAA27799@unicom.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980215193003.00850630@hyperreal.org> from "Brian Behlendorf" at Feb 15, 1998 07:30:03 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:42:19 -0800 To: Chip Rosenthal , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: SMTP forwarding [Was: "We do not relay" errors] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > On a related topic, why doesn't SMTP have a "redirect" response code, i.e. > > the equivalent of the 301 or 302 response codes in HTTP? > > It does. See RFC-821 section 3.2. FORWARDING. > > 551 User not local; please try Actually, if we want to get technical, an SMTP 5xx code is equivalent to an HTTP 4xx code, not a 3xx code, so this isn't exactly the same. This causes a hard bounce, which isn't the same as .forward which accepts and then forward/redirects. SMTP doesn't really have any clean way to say "He's over *there* now, please update your alias, but I'll forward this for you this time", which is what you want. Simply doing an SMTP 'meta-refresh' isn't really what you want, where you silently push the mail somewhere else. You want to forward the mail, so it doesn't bounce, and return a "please update" request to the source. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 21:18:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA11503; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11479 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02000; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:08:12 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199802160508.XAA02000@unicom.com> Subject: Re: SMTP forwarding [Was: "We do not relay" errors] To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:08:12 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 15, 1998 08:42:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > SMTP doesn't really have any clean way to say "He's over *there* now, > please update your alias, but I'll forward this for you this time", > which is what you want. Yeah, it does: 251 User not local; will forward to Again, whether it is widely supported is another issue. As far as the 551 code, I've got a sneaky feeling that the new-fangled DSN notices may have some preferred way of specifying that. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 15 23:18:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA00773; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:12:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA00766 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id XAA16573; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:16:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E7E80B.5EF34298@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:17:57 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors References: <199802151710.LAA25449@unicom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chip Rosenthal wrote: > [...] > It is not always an easy task to institute unauthorized relay > protection. Stopping sendmail from relaying, for instance, is a > lot more complicated than it ought to be. I think that statement should be qualified with "...if you're an ISP or have an complex multi-domain site." Otherwise, it's trivial in the case of sendmail. It took me maybe 10 minutes. (Copy a ruleset from either the sendmail.org or spam.abuse.net Web page into sendmail.cf, add a couple of domains to a config file, kill and restart the daemon. Done. And test... another couple of minutes.) I really can't think of anything that would be simpler except a hypothetical mailer that one configured by screen forms, and "permit relaying" was a yes/no check box. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 16 06:03:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20805; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 05:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA20755 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 05:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11848; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:56:08 -0600 Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA06090; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:55:01 -0600 From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199802161355.HAA06090@bif.cd.com> Subject: Re: I've seen the light! To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:55:01 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199802150011.RAA06986@polaris.azstarnet.com> from "Bob Bish" at Feb 14, 98 05:11:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > OK, I'll concede the infinite knowledge of the members of the list-managers > list, which means that you people are right (not me, of course, I'm just plain *plonk* From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 16 08:20:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16727; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from vanyel.herald.co.uk (vanyel.herald.co.uk [194.70.229.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA16583 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mel@localhost) by vanyel.herald.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01293; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:59:16 GMT Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:59:16 GMT From: Melanie Dymond Harper Message-Id: <199802161559.PAA01293@vanyel.herald.co.uk> To: bish@azstarnet.com, kynn@idyllmtn.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: ml-owners - Mailing List Owner's Discussion Group Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 16 08:33:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26310; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from IQSC.COM (iqgate.iqsc.com [207.69.181.94]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA26386 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from data by IQSC.COM with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0y4RW7-000RptC; Mon, 16 Feb 98 09:27 EST Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:27:28 -0500 (EST) From: "Milt Webb, IQ Software" X-Sender: milt@data Reply-To: "Milt Webb, IQ Software" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors In-Reply-To: <34e52050.26549506@nexus.pigsfly.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On 13 Feb 1998 18:15:49 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III > wrote: > > >OK, I'm quite happy that sites are tightening up on relaying. But it seems > >that some sites go a little to far. Lately I've been receiving a large > >number (well, nearly 50% by volume) of bounces from various sites telling > >me that they don't relay. Well, that's great, but the address I'm trying > >... I've seen some sites bounce mail because some of the return addresses still contain a percent-hack...even though the address to their site is clean. Go figure. -Milt ------------------------------------------------------------------------ milt webb - iq software corporation - 3295 river exchange drive norcross, georgia usa 30092 - 770/446-8880x245 - www.iqsc.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 16 10:03:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07809; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:51:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA07755 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:50:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from om.proper.com (om.proper.com [165.227.249.115]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22796 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:56:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802161756.JAA22796@mail.proper.com> X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:50:33 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: "We do not relay" errors In-Reply-To: <34E7E80B.5EF34298@postmodern.com> References: <199802151710.LAA25449@unicom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Otherwise, it's trivial in the case of sendmail. It took me maybe 10 minutes. >(Copy a ruleset from either the sendmail.org or spam.abuse.net Web page >into sendmail.cf, add a couple of domains to a config file, kill and restart >the daemon. Done. And test... another couple of minutes.) Three things here. First, you have to know that the patch is available. I believe that most people running sendmail do so because it came with their Unix software and have no idea what sendmail.org is (or even whether it is trustworthy; anyone could have gotten that domain name). Second, slapping a patch into sendmail.cf is not easy for someone who's not familiar with sendmail intracacies. Third, I think the temporary bounces people on this list have seen come during the testing period you mention. You test period might have been ten minutes, but I suspect most others are overnight, until users complain that they stopped receiving mail from certain mailing lists. I expect that this patch will become a one-liner in the next sendmail configuration, but we're not there yet. And even then, the adoption rate of 8.8.x revisions isn't all that high. We're still stuck with trying to get out the word manually about turning off relays. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 16 12:34:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA23277; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA23126 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:13:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sportsurf.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id LAA26453; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.204.56.156] (sss.pittsburgh.net [192.204.56.156]) by sportsurf.net (8.8.5) id MAA09629; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:17:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802161917.MAA09629@sportsurf.net> Subject: Re: Query: On-Line Directories of Mailing Lists Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 15:28:38 -0000 x-sender: mark@sportsurf.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Mark Rauterkus To: "Gillam Kerley" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Just a couple... Findmail.com aol.com -------------- Mark Rauterkus, Publisher E-books work in classrooms! mrauterkus@sportsurf.net Nagano Torch Burns Bright with Winter Games Discussion lists: http://SportSurf.Net/SUBSCRIPTIONS/about/Nagano -------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 18 00:07:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA03575; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA03402 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA09889; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 02:56:20 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199802171247.UAA15365@vector.wantree.com.au> from "Frac" at Feb 17, 98 08:47:14 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:07:52 -0500 To: From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Interesting "Mailbox Full" notice Cc: postmaster@presby.edu, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ListMom-Talk Discussion List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The discussion centers around this DSN (might not be reproduced here in its original form, since initial poster had inserted his own text into the middle of the DSN body): ================== X-From_: BOZO@cs1.presby.edu Sun Feb 8 20:12:06 1998 Return-Path:BOZO@cs1.presby.edu X-Envelope-To: Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:11:59 GMT From: BOZO@cs1.presby.edu (Bozo) Apparently-To: fractal@wantree.com.au [...] A T T E N T I O N : Automated reply - will not be repeated. ******************* The mailbox of the sender (see 'From:' line in this message header) IS FULL AND CANNOT RECEIVE ANY MESSAGES. The message you recently sent could not be delivered. You will receive this message only once. All future messages will be discarded without notice. Although we provide a reasonable mailbox quota, it has been exceeded and we must cut off mail to protect the service for other users. Most likely, the person went on vacation without unsubscribing from mailing lists. If you cannot contact the recipient except by e-mail, you should try again later, asking that the person confirm that he or she is again reading mail. Until you get that personal confirmation, ASSUME ALL MAIL IS DISCARDED. postmaster@presby.edu ================== The comments: ** Sometime around 11:06 -0500 2/17/98, David W. Tamkin said: >Frac responded, > >| Why? It's up to the subscriber to keep tabs on their subscriptions, not you. >| Whether a list-member receives mail or not isn't my concern; it's their's. >| Whether I'm distracted from more important tasks thanks to some bonehead's >| full mailbox makes it MY problem--I'm not their mama ya know. > >Clearly some of the differences between Frac and me on this matter are not >due to differences in our personalities but to those between our lists. The ::snip:: The bottom line here, IMO, is adherance to RFCs. Failure to return a DSN ("NDN" for those of you who prefer that term) violates RFCs 1891 and 821. >From RFC1891: 2. Introduction The SMTP protocol [1] requires that an SMTP server provide notification of delivery failure, if it determines that a message cannot be delivered to one or more recipients. Traditionally, such notification consists of an ordinary Internet mail message (format defined by [2]), sent to the envelope sender address (the argument of the SMTP MAIL command), containing an explanation of the error and at least the headers of the failed message. [1] RFC821 Accepting a message for delivery requires the accepting server to return a DSN in the event that a message is not deliverable, UNLESS THE CLIENT SPECIFICALLY REQUESTS that a DSN not be returned. To wit, from RFC1891: In an attempt to provide such a service, this memo uses the mechanism defined in [4] to define an extension to the SMTP protocol. Using this mechanism, an SMTP client may request that an SMTP server issue or not issue a delivery status notification (DSN) under certain conditions. The format of a DSN is defined in [5]. [4] RFC1651 [5] RFC1894 Thus, unless specifically requested, it is not acceptable that a DSN not be returned once a message is accepted for delivery. And since the server is not bouncing the message immediately, it is, in effect, accepting it for delivery. This is in direct violation of the relevant RFCs. There are good reasons to return a DSN in the event of EACH non-delivery; one of the better ones is that automated bounce handlers will "time out" the errant address after some time of repeated bouncing. If the DSN is returned only once, however, the address will not be removed from the mailing list. This results in wasted bandwidth and potentially-defunct (for all intents and purposes) addresses remaining on the list. Overall, the practice of not returning DSNs for individual failures is not at all clever. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 19 12:06:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28832; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA28583 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:06:08 -0800 (PST) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199802191908.claire.98024519@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:08:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: NT listserve Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19980209071832.009a4820@mail.silverquick.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 98 at 7:25, Gordon Burns wrote: > You could try NtList part of the NT Mail suite. > > http://www.ntmail.co.uk > > We run many lists including a 1000 member 100 messages a day list > as well as 350,000 weekly newsletter using NTList. I have been a list admin for lists hosted on NTList on a remote site. In general it sems quite efficient at turning mail around, but featurewise, I hink it's diaboloical, and I'd strongly recommend ppl to keep clear of it. Limitations include: no NOMAIL mode, no filtering of duplicate messages or administrivia, no subscription confirmation procedure, switching from MAIL to DIGEST mode needs admin approval on non-open lists, etc. [There are more: that's just the start...] It's not just poorer than something like Lstserv: it's weaker than just about every other piece of list software I have tried, and that includes the DOS software I use to run backup lists when remote servers fall down. Hugs, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 19 14:12:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05939; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:46:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from pentioum90.silverquick.com (mail.omegaweb.co.uk [194.205.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA05879 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.205.38.50] by pentioum90.silverquick.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ta404111 for ; Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:01:17 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980219214945.00923bb0@mail.silverquick.com> X-Sender: gordon@mail.silverquick.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:49:50 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Gordon Burns Subject: Re: NT listserve Cc: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 19:08 19/02/98 +0000 Claire McNab said.... >On 9 Feb 98 at 7:25, Gordon Burns wrote: > >> You could try NtList part of the NT Mail suite. >> >> http://www.ntmail.co.uk >> >> We run many lists including a 1000 member 100 messages a day list >> as well as 350,000 weekly newsletter using NTList. > >I have been a list admin for lists hosted on NTList on a remote site. > >In general it sems quite efficient at turning mail around, but >featurewise, I hink it's diaboloical, and I'd strongly recommend >ppl to keep clear of it. > >Limitations include: no NOMAIL mode, no filtering of duplicate >messages or administrivia, no subscription confirmation procedure, >switching from MAIL to DIGEST mode needs admin approval on non-open >lists, etc. [There are more: that's just the start...] I think Claire is answering a different question than the one I was attempting address, although it was some time ago so I may have misunderstood the question. The original question was I think from someone who wanted to purchase list software for NT to run on his own machine and not someone who wanted to adminster lists hosted remotely on a machine owned by another and running NTList. I would agree with Claire that if you are a list owner and want to administer a list hosted on a Ntlist server then the remote control is not as comprehensive as others. Remote mail admin will I believe be improved dramatically in the release of the new version. Both of the examples I mentioned in my answer are run on a remote machine, but it is OUR machine. I can therefore do anything I need to do as if the machine was on my desktop. The lists we run are critical for our clients and we offer and charge a commercial rate we handle all list admin (they certainly do not want to) and allow the software to perform a reliable high speed efficient delivery. NT List performs this superbly. If the original question was put by someone isn a similar position I would recommend he consider NTList which is all I was trying to say. I can only speak with the experience and the two examples I gave were two of many, I choose those one for a large number and one of frequency. The largest newsletter is growing at approx 1000 per day and NT List handles all the subscription processing. Just wanted to ensure that we were clear about what we were both saying here. I certainly do not want to get into a battle over what software is best. We all have different needs in different circumstances. NtList is great for ours thats all. Regards Gordon From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 20 06:53:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA11965; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA09357 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 05:43:42 -0800 (PST) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199802200319.claire.98024615@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:19:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: NT listserve Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <3.0.32.19980219214945.00923bb0@mail.silverquick.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 19 Feb 98 at 21:49, Gordon Burns wrote: > I think Claire is answering a different question than the one I was > attempting address, although it was some time ago so I may have > misunderstood the question. I think I may well have misinterpreted it, and I do agree we are looking at things from different angles :) > The original question was I think from someone who wanted to > > purchase list software for NT to run on his own machine and not > > someone who wanted to adminster lists hosted remotely on a machine > owned by another and running NTList. Perhaps the two aren't mutually exclusive? Maybe some lists on the questioner's server might be adminned remotely? > I would agree with Claire that if you are a list owner and want to > administer a list hosted on a Ntlist server then the remote control > is not as comprehensive as others. Remote mail admin will I > believe be improved dramatically in the release of the new version. That is good news -- it'll make my life easier! :) > Both of the examples I mentioned in my answer are run on a remote > machine, but it is OUR machine. I can therefore do anything I need > to do as if the machine was on my desktop. Very handy. And the graphical interface does look very neat. > The lists we run are critical for our clients and we offer and > charge a commercial rate we handle all list admin (they certainly > do not want to) and allow the software to perform a reliable high > speed efficient delivery. Yes, delivery speed is one of the other important criteria, and in an installation like yours, probly one of the critical ones: I do hear good reports of NTList in this regard, as well as your good experiences. > Just wanted to ensure that we were clear about what we were both > saying here. I certainly do not want to get into a battle over what > software is best. No, that'd be silly -- I think it's a horses for courses thing, and I hope this sort of sharing of perspectives is useful. > We all have different needs in different > circumstances. NtList is great for ours thats all. In those circumstances, most of the things I was referring to would not be such a problem for you as they were me, and I can see how your uses would rate NTList much higher than mine would: it is indeed interesting to see how these sort of varieties in usage can shift the priorities, and how it would be mistaken to talk of "lists" as a narrow field, when they come in so many different shapes and sizes: those I admin are support lists with membership in the low hundreds -- a very different issue to your high-volume commercial ones. But even for your uses, I would still be worried by NTList's lack of automated subscription confirmation, which leaves it open to abuse by "list-bombers" who sub ppl to dozens of lists, and a bit irked by its lack of such things as a duplicate message filter and ability to reject mesages with attachments. Issues such as a NOMAIL option are more variable in imprtance: but the security features seem more problematic to me, which is why my earlier post probably sounded a bit too dismissive. I'm interested, though: have you found these things a problem? I hope my earlier mesg didn't make it sound as if I'm too didactic to want to learn from others experiences. Having been a remote list admin for some ime, I'm now looking to set up a bigger list project, doing more of my own hosting, and I'm interested to see how the different factors weigh in difft circumstances. I'd be very interrsted to see a comparison of ListServ v NTList: am I right in thinking that those are the two 'heavyweight' options for NT? Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 21 23:50:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24738; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA24545 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:26:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8155 invoked from network); 22 Feb 1998 07:36:49 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 22 Feb 1998 07:36:49 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:34:11 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The other day, I received a notification from Carl Paukstis (who publishes a list of motorcycle-related mailing lists) that http://www.escribe.com/ was republishing mailing list content from a number of mailing lists, while charging fees for banner ads. One of my lists was on this site, and I don't recall giving them permission to republish my list, nor had any of my subscribers (the owners of the copyright on the material) done so. Complaints sent to addresses at escribe.com and to the domain addresses resulted in the removal of the list, but I've not received any direct response from escribe.com. Please check http://www.escribe.com/ to see if any of your lists are being republished without your (or your subscribers) consent. If eScribe is replublishing list content without permission, such a violation of copyright law (and common decency) should not be tolerated. For your convenience, I have included the results of a 'whois' search for escribe.com: eScribe (ESCRIBE2-DOM) 5 Greenwood Place Menlo Park, CA 94025 US Domain Name: ESCRIBE.COM Administrative Contact: Paterson, Scott (SP231) rsvp@WARP.ORG 415-328-2255 (FAX) 415-328-5862 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: NOC (NOC41-ORG) noc@ABOVE.NET 408-367-6666 Fax- 408-367-6688 Billing Contact: Paterson, Scott (SP231) rsvp@WARP.ORG 415-328-2255 (FAX) 415-328-5862 -- Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 11:09:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA17598; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA17528 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:23:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17746 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17446 ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:06:41 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:40:20 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The other day, I received a notification from Carl Paukstis (who publishes > a list of motorcycle-related mailing lists) that http://www.escribe.com/ > was republishing mailing list content from a number of mailing lists, while > charging fees for banner ads. Nice catch. I've just sent them a cease and desist, and locked that domain out of my lists. They were archiving my entire site for me, and never bothered to ask. In fact, I just went and checked. Their *entire* hockey section is my site, or outside lists they found by using the list index on my site. And all this is is a set of Mhonarc web interfaces. Sheesh. Man, what a farce. They're hooked up to linkexchange, there is absolutely no info on the site. This is beyond clueless. If you have auto or sports oriented lists, better go take a look and see if you're on it. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 19:06:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08972; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 18:31:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA26757 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.197.48.122] (user-36sac5r.dialup.mindspring.com [205.197.48.187]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03635; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 20:35:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: met@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 17:35:19 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Dave Voorhis , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:40 AM -0800 2/22/98, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >In fact, I just went and checked. Their *entire* hockey section is my >site, or outside lists they found by using the list index on my site. >And all this is is a set of Mhonarc web interfaces. Sheesh. Your complaint may have had a reaction. Today all access to that site has not been possible. Keep getting "server not accepting and try again later" message. I had no problem getting to it the other day! Mark =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-= Mark E. Taylor Weekly writer of Net Watch in The American Reporter. Keep track of scams by reading this article every Wednesday at http://www.american-reporter.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 20:21:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA00921; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA00743 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 19:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id XAA10413 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:04:02 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199802230404.XAA10413@panix.com> Subject: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:04:01 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From here it looks like ESCRIBE (or their server) is off the net. (can someone verify this?) I took a look when the first pointer was posted (thanks) and was startled at what they are about. I was grateful that they seemed to be keeping mostly auto lists and didnt see any bicycle lists. Danny From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 21:20:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA24951; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA24772 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11802 ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:25:27 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802230404.XAA10413@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:20:35 -0800 To: Danny Lieberman , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk giggle. guffaw. There's a new home page up on escribe: " eScribe is closed to public access. We honor all delete and add requests. We will only carry mailing lists that request service. All other lists are no longer accessible. We apologize for interrupting your Internet life and respect your requests. " -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 21:24:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA22180; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:08:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21977 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl2-72.gate.net ([199.227.173.72]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA238; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:14:02 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: Danny Lieberman Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:13:44 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34f70491.7002338@nexus.pigsfly.com> References: <199802230404.XAA10413@panix.com> In-Reply-To: <199802230404.XAA10413@panix.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:04:01 -0500 (EST), Danny Lieberman wrote: >From here it looks like ESCRIBE (or their server) is off the net. >(can someone verify this?) They have been off the net for a couple of days. I was never able to check out their site, because it was down. But today it is back...with the simple statement: "eScribe is closed to public access. We honor all delete and add requests. We will only carry mailing lists that request service. All other lists are no longer accessible. "We apologize for interrupting your Internet life and respect your requests." - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 21:36:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA23735; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:13:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA23566 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25411 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1998 05:23:30 -0000 Received: from flyingfish.armchair.mb.ca (HELO flyingfish) (198.163.115.26) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 23 Feb 1998 05:23:30 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980222232251.00c43d0c@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:22:51 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 05:35 PM 22/02/98 -0800, Mark E. Taylor wrote: >Your complaint may have had a reaction. Today all access to that >site has not been possible. Keep getting "server not accepting and >try again later" message. I had no problem getting to it the other >day! It was gone all day, but it's back now, with the following note: "eScribe is closed to public access. We honor all delete and add requests. We will only carry mailing lists that request service. All other lists are no longer accessible. We apologize for interrupting your Internet life and respect your requests." Of course, I've still received no explanation from eScribe as to what possessed them to violate copyrights in such a flagrant manner. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 22 23:52:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA17754; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA17690 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id XAA06090; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:30:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F125D5.CD2C11AE@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 23:32:36 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? References: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> <3.0.1.32.19980222232251.00c43d0c@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > > At 05:35 PM 22/02/98 -0800, Mark E. Taylor wrote: > > >Your complaint may have had a reaction. Today all access to that > >site has not been possible. Keep getting "server not accepting and > >try again later" message. I had no problem getting to it the other > >day! > > It was gone all day, but it's back now, with the following note: > > "eScribe is closed to public access. We honor all delete and add requests. > We will only carry mailing lists that request service. All other lists are > no longer accessible. We apologize for interrupting your Internet life and > respect your requests." > > Of course, I've still received no explanation from eScribe as to what > possessed them to violate copyrights in such a flagrant manner. It may be beating a dead horse at this point, but if you have a list that was archived there without authorization, you might find it amusing to contact them with a demand for an accounting of all advertising receipts received as a result of viewing your list's copyrighted contents. In theory, you or your message authors might be entitled to that money. Realistically, it might be peanuts, and there are all sorts of legal pitfalls in trying to collect (but don't tell them that), but the mere request ought to put the fear of God into them. The contact info from the InterNIC is: eScribe 5 Greenwood Place Menlo Park CA 94025 USA Administrative Contact: Paterson, Scott (SP231) rsvp@WARP.ORG 415-328-2255 (FAX) 415-328-5862 (these are now area code 650, BTW) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 03:52:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA18985; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA18742 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30518 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1998 11:43:33 -0000 Received: from flyingfish.armchair.mb.ca (HELO flyingfish) (198.163.115.26) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 23 Feb 1998 11:43:33 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980223054230.00c569c0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:42:30 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Other sites that may be archiving your lists... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A bit of searching has turned up two more sites that might be archiving your lists without your permission. See http://www.findmail.com and http://www.reference.com. Unlike eScribe, however, these sites do not attempt to hide the origin of their archives, and provide subscription instructions, etc. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 03:59:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA19686; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA15346 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:22:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA06273 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16240 ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:30:58 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F125D5.CD2C11AE@postmodern.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980222013411.00fbdba0@armchair.mb.ca> <3.0.1.32.19980222232251.00c43d0c@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:03:21 -0800 To: mcb@postmodern.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:32 PM -0800 2/22/98, Michael C. Berch wrote: > It may be beating a dead horse at this point, but if you have a list that was > archived there without authorization, you might find it amusing to contact > them with a demand for an accounting of all advertising receipts >received as a > result of viewing your list's copyrighted contents. Yeah, right. Tehy're hooked into Linkexchange -- they're trading banners with other Linkexchange sites. If they're getting a penny from that site, I'm amazed. (now, I have nothing against linkexchange, but it's primarily a scratch-my-back-scratch-your-back thing, passing around in-kind banner ads. If you want some visibility, that's one thing. Money?) > Realistically, it might be peanuts, and there are all sorts of legal pitfalls > in trying to collect (but don't tell them that), but the mere request >ought to > put the fear of God into them. Actually, I get the distinct impression the fear of god IS in them now. I also get he distinct impression that we'll find this is a couple of hackers who decided they could generate archives, do the banner-ad route, and make a few bucks. And didn't do any basic research. The old "Hey Judy! I know how to save the farm! Let's put on a show!" mentality... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 05:36:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA08147; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA08124 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:34:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 8:40:30 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9802230840.aa08648@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach: >Michael C. Berch wrote: >> Realistically, it might be peanuts, and there are all sorts of legal pitfalls >> in trying to collect (but don't tell them that), but the mere request >>ought to >> put the fear of God into them. > >Actually, I get the distinct impression the fear of god IS in them now. > >I also get he distinct impression that we'll find this is a couple of >hackers who decided they could generate archives, do the banner-ad >route, and make a few bucks. And didn't do any basic research. The old >"Hey Judy! I know how to save the farm! Let's put on a show!" >mentality... Actually, Scott Paterson (the brainz behind escribe, it appears) has been running the SAAB mailing list for probably 10 years now, so he's no internet newbie. Clueless, yes, newbie, no. Of course, one of the admins for the BMW motorcycles list is a lawyer. An internet savvy lawyer (he's currently webmaster for a large, make that LARGE site). Heh heh heh. I suspect Scott is glad he wore his brown underwear the other day. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 06:37:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA16095; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:29:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA16030 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 06:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19287 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:35:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA23888 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:35:30 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA17610 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:35:29 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802231435.IAA17610@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Other sites that may be archiving your list To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:35:29 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This thread got me to looking at my subscriber lists. Though I don't see any of the previously suggested archivers mentioned, I find the following entries on it: BITLIST@UNLVM.unl.edu NWU-SPORTS_Mailing_List@notes.worldcom.com Could either of these be someone archiving or echoing one of my lists? -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 09:24:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA17724; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA07021 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id KAA10071 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:10:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802231610.KAA10071@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Other sites that may be archiving your list Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:10:58 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: "List Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/23/98 8:35 AM, Mike Nolan wrote... >This thread got me to looking at my subscriber lists. Though I don't see >any of the previously suggested archivers mentioned, I find the following >entries on it: > >BITLIST@UNLVM.unl.edu > >NWU-SPORTS_Mailing_List@notes.worldcom.com > >Could either of these be someone archiving or echoing one of my lists? In theory, yes. However, I've also found that people who have control over their own domain will create a username for every list they're on as some kind of massochistic filtering system. You can always write to them and ask. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 11:21:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA05403; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA05249 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from unicom.com (garcon.unicom.com [192.108.105.37]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05540 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chip@localhost) by unicom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21144 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:40:23 -0600 (CST) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199802231840.MAA21144@unicom.com> Subject: Re: WWW.ESCRIBE.COM archiving lists without permission? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:40:23 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Feb 23, 1998 01:03:21 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0b1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I doubt there is anything evil going on here. I visited their anti-spam page, and it's clear that somebody there is reasonably net-savvy (e.g. understood not only what legislative anti-spam proposals were on the table, but also the implications of them). Also, the fact that they responded so quickly after being outed on this list also suggests they realized a mistake was made. My vote is that somebody who ought to have known better had a brain fart. -- Chip Rosenthal * Unicom Systems Development http://www.unicom.com/ Spammers ate my mail server! http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ Outlaw junk email * Support CAUCE http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 14:22:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28998; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:16:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28912 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id OAA25816; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:22:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:22:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802232222.OAA25816@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19980223054230.00c569c0@armchair.mb.ca> (message from Dave Voorhis on Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:42:30 -0600) Subject: Re: Other sites that may be archiving your lists... Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 05:42:30 -0600 From: Dave Voorhis A bit of searching has turned up two more sites that might be archiving your lists without your permission. See http://www.findmail.com and http://www.reference.com. Unlike eScribe, however, these sites do not attempt to hide the origin of their archives, and provide subscription instructions, etc. Thanks for the info. These are, I think, the ethical archive places. I've had several requests over the years for places like this to archive my list. I've turned them all down. I remember findmail and think they are one who asked. My list is not in findmail and it's listed (with an old address) at reference with a note: Status: Not archived by Reference.COM I would be interested in other places like this though. I want to make sure I'm not archived anywhere or listed in a way that I don't want. Not to mention that there are hundreds of places out there with my old list and web addresses and I'd like to change at least the larger sites. Another place I know that steals pages, though it's not list archives, is the Mining Company. I'm listed there as just a list with a link to my page (done in frames so they maintain a search bar across the top) but other people have had their pages stolen and produced as if they were a Mining Company project, complete with ads. http://www.miningco.com/ Cyndi Immune Mailing List -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 14:36:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA01852; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA01810 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:32:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 98 17:37:54 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: cnorman@best.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Other sites that may be archiving your lists... Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9802231737.aa04119@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi Norman: >Another place I know that steals pages, though it's not list archives, is >the Mining Company. I'm listed there as just a list with a link to my page >(done in frames so they maintain a search bar across the top) but other >people have had their pages stolen and produced as if they were a Mining >Company project, complete with ads. http://www.miningco.com/ Off-charter, so I'll be brief: To defeat, add the following javascript to your pages: Obviously, you'd want to replace the URL with the one for the page in question:-} Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 15:23:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA01900; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA01820 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME ([12.64.1.87]) by mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA9331 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:38:45 +0000 Message-ID: <34F1E03E.6A0E@Qmail.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:46:54 -0800 From: Thompson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Newbie List Admin, Odd Subs, Please Help? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Newbie List Admin, Odd Subs, Please Help? [Long] I'm a newbie list maintainer/administrator for 6 months now on a three-year-old democratic mutual support 12-Step-focus discussion list. Six months ago this list changed providers. Since then it averages two new subscribers a month. (But that's another story, not relevant to this query.) Suddenly 26 subscribes appeared within 14 days, taking our subscriber list from a stable 455 to 480 in 2 weeks. Clusters of unusual subscriptions began arriving, starting 10 Feb 98. All were identical in the following respects: 1. No INFO file had been requested by even one of them, 2. yet All subscribed perfectly, using my preferred protocol of a period in the Subject line (That protocol stated in list info) 3. All were from free web-based email accounts. 4. All were clustered in a burst of a few minutes, then no more subs until the next burst, 4 days or so later. 5. All are digest subscriptions---without exception (individual messages are available on this list) Here's how the bursts look: 10 Feb, 4 subscribes (with timing of Authentication responses) * @domain W> 10 Feb 98 06:47 * @domain X> 10 Feb 98 06:53 * @domain X> 10 Feb 98 06:55 * @domain X> 10 Feb 98 07:13 14 Feb, 9 subs - 7 from domain Y, 2 from domain Z 16 Feb, 6 subs - all from domain Y 20 Feb, 4 subs - all from domain Y 23 Feb, 3 subs - all from domain Y (with timing) subscribe "super woman" 23 feb 98 07:03:26 Authenticated (initiated 20 Feb 16:42:14) subscribe "why me" 23 feb 98 07:05:16 07:05:16 (initiated 20 Feb 16:45:02) subscribe "chess master" 23 feb 98 7:07 (initiated 20 Feb 16:47:08) I wrote a friendly, brief note to the first subscriber in the third "burst," asking where they had found this list. Two other group officers inquired of two others, as well. No response. Screening subscribers is not a realistic option; I'm assuming this is an inside job. (A group business discussion/vote is coming up, and a few members may have strong feelings about the issue/people involved.) Any insider (or coached outsider) could satisfactorily answer any screening questions. First I thought somebody was recruiting people to speak up and vote in a particular direction. But it could be one person's creating all the subscriptions. Below I've listed some of the subscribed "names," in case that gives anybody a "feel" for how to approach this. We're a very tame list, and this is totally new to me. I'm at a loss. My question is, can I find out from domain Y, for example, whether the same person initiated all of those subscribes? Is there anything else I can do? All but one of the free-e-mail domains are U.S.-based. All are big names---such as yahoo, mailexcite, mailcity, etc. Would the free e-mail domains be able and willing to help me? Particularly the one being used most? Thanks in advance for any insights or help. Sincerely, Tommi Thompson, List Maintainer MailTo:CAFGMain@best.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= "Names" of new subscribes: xit xit 10 Feb 98 "xit xxx" 20 feb 98 "pat darnell" 10 Feb 98 "pat block" 10 Feb 98 "Joan Kodowsky" 14 Feb 98 "Stanley wadersky" 16 feb "hola v" 14 Feb 98 "hidelco hidelco" 16 feb 98 "why me" 16 feb 98 "why me" 23 feb 98 "chess master" 16 feb 98 "chess master" 23 feb 98 "harry rebel" 16 feb 98 "kenneth wowsers" 16 feb 98 "valerie k" 14 Feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "sweet grass" 20 feb 98 "super woman" 23 feb 98 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 15:38:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11577; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA07690 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07865; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:08:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31191; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:08:40 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA28719; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:08:39 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802232308.RAA28719@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Newbie List Admin, Odd Subs, Please Help? To: thom@Qmail.com (Thompson) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:08:38 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <34F1E03E.6A0E@Qmail.com> from "Thompson" at Feb 23, 98 12:46:54 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Six months ago this list changed providers. Since then it > averages two new subscribers a month. (But that's another story, > not relevant to this query.) > > Suddenly 26 subscribes appeared within 14 days, taking our > subscriber list from a stable 455 to 480 in 2 weeks. Clusters of > unusual subscriptions began arriving, starting 10 Feb 98. All > were identical in the following respects: I can offer three possible theories, some of which you've probably already worked out on your own: 1. Some person or group of people is deliberately trying to take over your list, for reasons relating to the charter of your list. 2. Information about your list has appeared on some 3rd party source that is reaching a lot of potential subscribers. Based on the names you provided, I would discount this possibility, but not 100%. A variation on this is that some 3rd party web subscription 'service' has added your list to its collection of lists you can subscribe to from a web interface. For the most part, such aids are not very helpful to me, very few of the subscribers I _want_ to reach arrive through such means. However, I once had over 100 new subscribers in a 3 day period, based on a magazine article about one of my lists, so outside publicity isn't always bad. 3. You are being targed by a group that harrasses e-mail lists just to be a pain in the net. I've been bothered by such a group once or twice myself, sometimes they go away sometimes they don't. (There's a similar group that takes great pleasure it taking over and ruining USENET newsgroups.) This can also be as innocuous as a bunch of high school kids that have discovered the Internet and your list, not that this makes it any less of a pain to deal with. Two possible actions: 1. Go to a magic cookie response to finalize subscriptions. Most list software offers this capability either in the base product or as an add on. This not only keeps a lot of spammers out, it gets rid of most not-serious lookie loos, too. (And it keeps out many of the terminally clueless.) 2. If your software/provider maintains the full text and headers of subscription requests, you can look at the subscriptions in depth to see if there are any patterns beyond what you've already reported. (Received-By headers are often useful in this regard.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 23 19:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA13051; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA02231 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08942 ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:18:40 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802231610.KAA10071@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:02:52 -0800 To: Adam Bailey , "List Managers" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Other sites that may be archiving your list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:10 AM -0800 2/23/98, Adam Bailey wrote: > >BITLIST@UNLVM.unl.edu This is pretty obviously a VM/Bitnet machine, so it's echoing into a local redistribution list. I wouldn't worry about it. > >NWU-SPORTS_Mailing_List@notes.worldcom.com This looks like it's gatewaying into a Lotus notes archive (think netnews, only sideways). they don't seem to have a public web site, so it might warrant some investigation, but I'd guess it's probably an internal distribution. > In theory, yes. However, I've also found that people who have control > over their own domain will create a username for every list they're on as > some kind of massochistic filtering system. And there are sites that'll do a local version of poplar lists.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 11:52:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29786; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA29433 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25737 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1998 19:49:57 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 24 Feb 1998 19:49:57 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980224134726.0106a8d0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:47:26 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Sites with tips on list etiquette Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have suggestions for sites (or documents you'd be willing to share) with general tips for subscribers on list etiquette, eg., snipping, not flaming, etc.? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 14:36:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA24148; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA18571 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:52:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03858; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:52:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980224130106.037dd100@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:01:06 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Sites with tips on list etiquette Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980224134726.0106a8d0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:47 p.m. 02/24/98 -0600, Dave Voorhis wrote: >Does anyone have suggestions for sites (or documents you'd be willing to >share) with general tips for subscribers on list etiquette, eg., snipping, >not flaming, etc.? Under "documents willing to share", the HTML Writers Guild has "netiquette guidelines" and "list rules", at: http://www.hwg.org/lists/netiquette.html http://www.hwg.org/lists/rules.html Presented for you to look over; if you want to use 'em in whole or part, just ask at president@hwg.org. -- _ __ * Owner, Idyll Mountain Internet | / / _ _ ._ _ ._ _ * Web Manager, Claremont Graduate Univ. | \ | | || ' || ' | * President, HTML Writers Guild |_\_\`_. ||_|_||_|_| * Postmaster, MLists.com <___' * Co-Coordinator, Virtual Dog Show kynn@idyllmtn.com * Opera Web Browser Evangelist: www.idyllmtn.com/~kynn * http://www.operasoftware.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 19:52:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA16129; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from infostreet.com (infostreet.com [207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA16040 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:30:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from babylon (babylon.instantweb.com [207.240.105.18]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA24140; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:42:56 -0800 Message-ID: <070701bd419e$a7de3dc0$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> From: "Siamak Farah" To: Cc: "siamak" Subject: Fake-ID Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:37:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A client of mine asked: One question, is there a security feature that checks that only I can send email to it? I will be sending from Eudora alias XYZ@XYZ.COM.... what is stopping somebody else from configuring the same way and also sending? The only thing I could think of, was to have the authorized sender be a secret email address and have all the email go out as XYZ@XYZ.COM. So, if someone fakes, we would get a bounce message. Any thoughts on this? Siamak Farah From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 19:56:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA21535; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:59:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from infostreet.com (infostreet.com [207.240.104.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA21332 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from babylon (babylon.instantweb.com [207.240.105.18]) by infostreet.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23011; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:11:16 -0800 Message-ID: <063a01bd4191$dbfa28b0$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> From: "Siamak Farah" To: , "Dave Voorhis" Subject: Re: Sites with tips on list etiquette Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:05:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk www.fabrik.com has a guide on e-mail etiquette. It might be a good start. Siamak Farah -----Original Message----- From: Dave Voorhis To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tuesday, February 24, 1998 12:11 PM Subject: Sites with tips on list etiquette >Does anyone have suggestions for sites (or documents you'd be willing to >share) with general tips for subscribers on list etiquette, eg., snipping, >not flaming, etc.? > >Dave Voorhis >mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca >http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave > From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 20:22:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA22586; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA22578 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:02:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15692 ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:10:57 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980224134726.0106a8d0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:03:53 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Sites with tips on list etiquette Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:47 AM -0800 2/24/98, Dave Voorhis wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions for sites (or documents you'd be willing to > share) with general tips for subscribers on list etiquette, eg., snipping, > not flaming, etc.? You can take a look at and wander. I've had a number of people borrow pieces from it, although I'm probably going to do another revamp to things to try to slim and tone it better... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 24 22:53:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA26382; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:38:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA26312 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.59.180] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y7aZS-0004aD-00; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:43:59 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980225064249.008c4720@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:42:49 +0000 To: "Siamak Farah" From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Fake-ID Cc: , "siamak" In-Reply-To: <070701bd419e$a7de3dc0$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 19:37 24/02/98 -0800, Siamak Farah wrote: >A client of mine asked: > >One question, is there a security feature that checks that only I can send >email to it? I will be sending from Eudora alias XYZ@XYZ.COM.... what is >stopping somebody else from configuring the same way and also sending? > >The only thing I could think of, was to have the authorized sender be a >secret email address and have all the email go out as XYZ@XYZ.COM. So, if >someone fakes, we would get a bounce message. > >Any thoughts on this? The best way is to use pgp but alas is not well supported by mailing list systems. Most systems will also let you switch moderation on whereby all posts will need a list password to be sent. Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 25 03:55:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA23065; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:46:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA23034 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y7cZt-0004t3-00; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:52:33 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980225085125.00885860@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:51:25 +0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Fake-ID In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980225064249.008c4720@stingray.ivision.co.uk> <070701bd419e$a7de3dc0$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Or you can, with things like majordomo, set up a list with ZERO valid >posting addresses, and used the "Approved:" password routines to send >messages. Anything sent to the address without the password is bounced >to you. that's something that you might be able to use if you can't go >mucking with aliases and Received lines... This is also handy as it is an easy pretty sure fire way to prevent mail loops - we tend to do this for all announce lists. >> The best way is to use pgp but alas is not well supported by mailing list >> systems. > >Some day. We hope. At least SOME kind of decent signature. Well I suspect there'll likely to be a lot more of this sort of thing about soon so hopefully sooner rather than later - for example, pgp is used to good effect by the UK DNS regsitrar (Nominet) for us to be able to maintain DNS/whois information ... Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 25 05:47:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA06014; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 05:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA12272 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA20380 ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:10:10 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980225064249.008c4720@stingray.ivision.co.uk> References: <070701bd419e$a7de3dc0$1269f0cf@babylon.instantweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:56:51 -0800 To: Manar Hussain , "Siamak Farah" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Fake-ID Cc: , "siamak" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >The only thing I could think of, was to have the authorized sender be a > >secret email address and have all the email go out as XYZ@XYZ.COM. So, if > >someone fakes, we would get a bounce message. Hiding the actual posting address is a time honored strategy that generally works pretty well. Watch out whether or not your MTA puts accounts in your Received headers, so it doesn't disclose for you. Or you can, with things like majordomo, set up a list with ZERO valid posting addresses, and used the "Approved:" password routines to send messages. Anything sent to the address without the password is bounced to you. that's something that you might be able to use if you can't go mucking with aliases and Received lines... Or you can do something I've done on some lists -- front-end your posting address with procmail, and have procmail sanity-check it for you. One thing I do, for instance, is hard-wire in the appropriate addresses the mail will go through in the Received lines, and then verify that they actually go through those sites (and that they don't go through sites they're not supposed to....). That way, they not only have to forge an address, but forge a whole set of e-mail headers -- assuming they know what paths it goes through and that I'm looking for them. Or you can do whatever you want in a procmail front end -- require a given X-foobar list header, and bounce anything without out, then remove the header before forwarding to the list. That could simulate the password stuff if your mail server doesn't support password approvals directly. Never thought you'd be inventing secret hand shakes with a computer program, right? > The best way is to use pgp but alas is not well supported by mailing list > systems. Some day. We hope. At least SOME kind of decent signature. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 25 14:38:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA15813; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA15703 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from city.grande-prairie.ab.ca (cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca [204.209.122.253]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24738 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca id <27779>; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:55:11 -0700 Message-Id: <98Feb25.125511mst.27779@cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:56:28 -0700 From: Chet Meek Reply-To: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca Organization: City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sites with tips on list etiquette References: <98Feb24.130330mst.27779@cityfw1.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > > Does anyone have suggestions for sites (or documents you'd be > willing to share) with general tips for subscribers on list > etiquette, eg., snipping, not flaming, etc.? > > Dave Voorhis > mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca > http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave Hi Dave and list members, Our "Help with Internet E-mail and Mailing lists" page contains extensive guidance on the use of e-mail, including conventions, privacy considerations, participation in mailing lists, signature files, etc., etc. It is on-line at: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/h_email.htm#Top It also has a section "Links to E-mail Guides, etc." at: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/h_email.htm#Links_To_Guides which lists a dozen or more guides to e-mail generally (not just for mailing lists, though they are there too). Some of these are more bite-sized. - Chet. ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 Host of the 2 0 0 0 Alberta Summer Games Fax: 403+539-1056 --- WWWeb: http://www.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca/homepage.htm --- ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- Home of the CyberCity Initiative: readying GP for the Info Age From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 26 08:53:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA03803; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03763 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14306 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA06337 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:09 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08801 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:04 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802261630.KAA08801@celery.tssi.com> Subject: '553' error? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:04 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is this a variation on the anti-spam relaying blocking problem that we've discussed recently? (And is there a list of the various error codes somewhere?) > ... while talking to mail.kcinter.net.: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts (#5.7.1) > 550 ... User unknown -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 26 11:25:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA29240; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA29179 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24334 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1998 18:34:34 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 26 Feb 1998 18:34:34 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980226123144.00caea00@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:31:44 -0600 To: nolan@tssi.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: '553' error? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com In-Reply-To: <199802261630.KAA08801@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:30 AM 2/26/98 -0600, you wrote: >Is this a variation on the anti-spam relaying blocking problem that we've >discussed recently? (And is there a list of the various error codes >somewhere?) > >> ... while talking to mail.kcinter.net.: >> >>> RCPT To: >> <<< 553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed rcpthosts (#5.7.1) >> 550 ... User unknown That looks to be an error message generated by the qmail MTA. "rcpthosts" is a qmail configuration file. The error usually occurs as a result of misconfiguration. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 26 13:37:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05806; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com (austin.BSDI.COM [205.230.232.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA29842 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:58:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com ({3nRsv72udY7W9H6Iv9bWzc4tVGxNcE68}@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by austin.bsdi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04928 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:05:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199802262105.OAA04928@austin.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Fake-ID In-reply-to: List-Managers-Digest's message of Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:29:37 PST. References: <199802251029.CAA11874@honor.greatcircle.com> From: Tony Sanders Organization: earth.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:05:26 -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: "Siamak Farah" > One question, is there a security feature that checks that only I can send > email to it? I will be sending from Eudora alias XYZ@XYZ.COM.... what is > stopping somebody else from configuring the same way and also sending? I don't know if this addresses your question or if it will work for you or not as it is somewhat MTA specific (but others here may be able to make use of it). What I do is generate a random name for the list distribution alias and then I surpress that name in the sendmail headers by sending to multiple accounts with something like: listname-randomstring@host.domain,nobody@host.domain