From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 01:52:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA07182; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA26119 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA14715 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:00:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id LAA01237; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:04:15 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL changes? To: amys@amys-answers.com Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:04:14 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199801231300.FAA05640@honor.greatcircle.com> from "Amy Stinson" at Jan 23, 98 07:51:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson asked, | Yesterday I had a list member write me and tell me that she had not | gotten any mail from my list site in over a day (extremely high | volume list so she *should* have gotten mail). A scan of members | showed her on there and receiving mail in index format. When I | checked the smtp logs, this message occurred: | | 13:45:35 *** Would have refused mail from <> for | from 205.160.203.108 Is AOL bouncing them back with " is not accepting mail from this sender"? AOL's Mail Controls facility, which most of its users don't even know about, has settings to block individual senders, to refuse all incoming mail, and to refuse mail from outside AOL. The second setting tells senders, " is not accepting any mail," but the first and the third give the same bounce message: "not accepting mail from this sender." A lot of people there take meat-axe advice that blocking all mail from out- side AOL will prevent all viruses and all spam, so it's the way to go. They don't stop to think that it will also cut them off from their mailing list subscriptions or from those they wish to join. A complication is that the principal accountholder can set Mail Controls for subsidiary screen names. Often Mom or Dad decides that Junior or Princess must be shielded from the big, bad Internet and puts a block on mail to the offspring's screen name; then Benevolent Parent (1) says nothing to the younger generation, leaving it to come as a rude surprise; (2) says something misleading like, "AOL has a setting to keep people from getting email virus- es, so I turned it on for all of us;" or (3) explains it properly but the child does not understand the ramifications. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 01:57:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA27734; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA27724 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:32:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id WAA24974 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id WAA10505; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29266 ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:42:29 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> References: from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:25:52 -0800 To: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Archives (was Re: Ever Been Sued? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:47 PM -0800 1/30/98, Richard Masoner wrote: > Have any other owners of archived lists had similar requests to remove > archived email? Yes. Because once places like Altavista started snooping through mailing list archives, spammers started sniffing through places like Alta vista. I had someone get spammed based on an address he used to post to a mailing list he hadn't been a member of for three years. I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, which stops the legitimate mega-crawlers. It won't stop someone who specifically targets my lists, but then, someone who specifically targets my lists I'll have trouble stopping, anyway (instead of snarfing the archives, just subscribe and quietly grab addresses until you feel you have enough and don't care what happens when I find out...) I occasionally get idiots who do this subscribe/snarf on a individual basis, and I practice quite hard-core scorched earth on them. But most of the folks who pull these stunts are lazy. They go for the global systems and fish there. By keeping my stuff out of them, I can protect my users about as reasonably as possible. I have also had, on two occasions, requests by users to expunge their accounts or complete postings. With the limited restriction of removing actively damaging or incorrect postings (i.e., things that are just plain old actionable wrong), I refuse -- one can't go and remove your name from the newspaper morgues just because you no longer want it known you said or did somethign, and I view archives the same way. So I decline those. People may regret they said something, but I don't believe they can pretend they didn't say it (but they shouldn't be spammed for saying it...) chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 02:22:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA07306; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:26:23 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) id AAA26238 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lotharon.endicor.com (lotharon.endicor.com [198.17.18.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id LAA04222 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tsarna@localhost) by lotharon.endicor.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA09436; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:47:29 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:47:29 -0600 (CST) From: Ty Sarna Message-Id: <199801301947.NAA09436@lotharon.endicor.com> To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Newsgroups: endicor.lists.list-managers In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600. Organization: Endicor Technologies, Inc., San Antonio, Texas Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article you write: > doing him a favor, is really small. Especially when the lawyer quotes > his hourly rate. This assumes the guy has or will get a lawyer. Many of these nut jobs think they're going to act "pro se", brilliant legal minds that they are. This defeats the "tell me you're lawyer's name and I'll put him in touch with my lawyer" (otherwise great because you don't even have to go out and hire a lawyer unless he does first -- he has to spend money first). Instead, he says he's going to act pro se, and so please tell him your lawyer's name (so now you're spending money, and he isn't -- assuming you don't have a lawyer already. Most list admins/newsgroup moderators/etc, being reasonably nice folks who try to stay out of trouble, don't). To the original poster, I hope this story will make you feel better, and give the other list managers a hearty laugh: I had a run in (my first, and I hope last) with one of the masters of this genre a few months back. I won't mention his name, but some of you may recognize him by his actions. He's one of the many who have threatened Chris Lewis, but on finding out Chris is in Canada he wasn't detered. Instead, he claimed that NAFTA allowed Chris to be prosecuted _criminally_ for violation of the US's First Ammendment. I believe this is what lawyers term a "novel theory of law". :-) Anyway, said guy prefers to threaten federal criminal rather than civil action. Much less worrysome, actually, since while he *might* find a shyster who'd be willing to take a civil case (payment up front, please!) or a court to let him go at it pro se, any prosecutor would just tell him to shove it. I was threatened with prosecution for the "Crimes of Conspiracy [to do what???] and Interstate Commerce [eh?]" because I kicked him off my system, for using it to harass and threaten action against a regional newsgroup hierarchy coordinator, for cancelling off-topic messages trying to gather support for a lawsuit against a city. That's right, three levels of legal action! Wheee! When I started ignoring him, his final message suggested he was going to have me subpoenaed to federal court. A few days later, I received the "sobpoena" by plain mail (in an envelope with no return address, and our address in large type that I'm sure was meant to be intimidating, but was so large it just looked silly). Included was a letter (again no return address), threatening seizure of all our computer equipment if I didn't reinstate his access. The "subpoena" was a second or third generation photocopy of the form for Summons in a Civil Action. It read: --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF [left blank] SUMMONS IN A CIVIL ACTION [left blank] CASE NUMBER: [left blank] V. [me and my employer, handwritten] TO: (Name and adress of defendant) Punitive damages: $500,000.00 Etc. [handwritten] [left blank] YOU ARE HEARBY SUMMONED and required to file with the Clerk of this Court and serve upon PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY (name and address) [left blank] an answer to the complaint which is hereith served upon you, within [blank filled in with "20", handwritten] days after service of this summons upon you, exclusive of the day of service. If you fail to do so, judgement by default will be taken against you for the relief demanded in the complaint. [fill-in lines for signatures by clerk, deputy clerk, and date left blank] [Opposite side to be filled out by process server left completely blank] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Needless to say, I wasn't quite shaking in my boots. "Oh no, I've been summoned to appear in United States District Court, for the District of... uh, what district was that again?" That was the last I heard from him. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 12:37:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA19413; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA19289 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16006 ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:29:03 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:19:05 -0800 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: postmaster@aol.com has not helped lately. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:10 PM -0800 1/31/98, David W. Tamkin wrote: > The last two times postmaster@aol.com has ignored me. All I get back is an > automated receipt but no action. Perhaps the requests come in so thick and > fast nowadays that one needs the fame or clout of a Chuq Von Rospach to get > action. I'd sincerely doubt I have clout at AOL. It's been a while since I've done this, so perhaps David is right and they're just gotten super busy (again. I've always found the AOL postmasters to have the right attitude, but like most support staffs, not enough resources...). -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 1 12:41:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA19421; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id MAA19291 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:22:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16012 ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:29:05 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19980131172130.00814bf0@hyperreal.org> from "Brian Behlendorf" at Jan 31, 98 05:21:30 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:26:05 -0800 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: the unidirectionality of AOL Mail Controls Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:43 PM -0800 1/31/98, David W. Tamkin wrote: > It would be overkill if the AOL user always noticed, read, understood, and > considered the warning. Not just a problem with AOL users, unfortunately. I just had to send a person to the instructions FOUR TIMES, getting more specific every time, to answer his "how do I sign up for digests" question. ("it's not there!" "Yes it is, I wrote it!"). After "look for the paragraph starting iwth "to sign up with digests,....", he wrote back and apologized for being dense.... Well meaning, but thought he knew what he was looking for and didn't. But I put it in there because it's a lot easier/faster to point someone at something that already exists than to answer it multiple times individually. And it helps avoid arguments over subjective rule making with the few folks who do that sort of stuff. Frankly, if I don't tell them, it's my fault. If they don't pay attention to what I tell them, it's not. And I don't feel terribly bad pointing that out to someone if necessary. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 2 15:57:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA10290; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980201-1) with SMTP id NAA13870 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA20543; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:24:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199802022124.PAA20543@revnet1.revnet.com> X-Sender: mmead@revnet1.revnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:10:38 -0600 To: awest@george.m-w.com (Amy West), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marc Mead Subject: Re: hosting services info needed again In-Reply-To: <9801281618.AA00839@m-w.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Amy West wrote: >I asked for this info perhaps 4-6 months ago, so I apologize for the repeated >inquiry. > >We've got a list that first maxed out a NeXT on a ISDN line (at 2000 >subscribers) and now >a Dec Alpha on a T-1 (at 17,000 subscribers) (both using majordomo & sendmail). >We're having various porblems withour list hosting serives because of >the drain on their resources. > >We've gotten quotes from Lsoft before, and we're going to look at them again, >but is anyone here running or using a list hosting service that could >handle a list that's going to continue to grow? Like to 100,000 subscribers? > >---Amy West > Amy, Take a look at GroupMaster Express list hosting service from Revnet: http://www.groupmaster.com/html/hosting.html We currently host lists in the 100k+ range and the list server software (GroupMaster) is *much* easier to use than majordomo---with more powerful message scheduling features and bounce handling. Hope this helps, Marc Mead Revnet Systems http://www.revnet.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 04:52:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA26191; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 04:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pdns.axidia.fr (pdns.axidia.fr [193.105.74.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA12709 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 03:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by pdns.axidia.fr; (5.65v3.2/1.3/10May95) id AA12157; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:28:09 +0100 Received: from hawai.axidia.fr ([10.10.10.32]) by silver.axidia.fr (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA318 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:04:33 +0100 Received: by hawai.axidia.fr with Microsoft Mail id <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:17:03 +0100 Message-Id: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> From: palmieri@axidia.fr (Palmieri Frank) To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: MLM hosts Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:17:02 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 08:56:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA09673; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03539 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA28526; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:19:23 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:29:36 -0500 To: palmieri@axidia.fr (Palmieri Frank), "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: MLM hosts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 6:17 -0500 2/3/98, Palmieri Frank sent everyone: >What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? Are you looking for server recommendations, or references for list- hosting services? - Vince From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 12:38:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA21476; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:03:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from peyak.nisto.com (peyak.nisto.com [207.34.64.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA21425 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.34.64.181] by peyak.nisto.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:10:42 -0700 X-Sender: grant@peyak.nisto.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:12:52 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. What I do instead is modify the email addresses (replacing the user id portion with "(suppressed)") so that spammers can't make use of them. If someone really need to get in touch with the original author, they can write to me (I keep an unmodified archive on a separate machine from my server). -- "Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now" http://www.nisto.com/ O- <*> From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 18:37:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01062; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from llmail.emailpub.com (llmail.emailpub.com [206.168.5.238]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA01013 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from professor.emailpub.com ([206.168.5.235]) by llmail.emailpub.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15152 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:40:22 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980203194711.00d1f38c@mail.emailpub.com> X-Sender: dan@mail.emailpub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:47:13 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dan Murray Subject: Re: hosting services info needed again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 AM 1/28/98 -0500, Amy West wrote: >I asked for this info perhaps 4-6 months ago, so I apologize for the repeated >inquiry. > >We've got a list that first maxed out a NeXT on a ISDN line (at 2000 >subscribers) and now >a Dec Alpha on a T-1 (at 17,000 subscribers) (both using majordomo & sendmail). >We're having various porblems withour list hosting serives because of >the drain on their resources. > >We've gotten quotes from Lsoft before, and we're going to look at them again, >but is anyone here running or using a list hosting service that could >handle a list that's going to continue to grow? Like to 100,000 subscribers? > >---Amy West > Amy, Email Publishing Inc. offers fulfillment/list hosting service for email lists of all sizes. In fact, our largest list is over a million subs, and many lists we handle are in the range you mention. We're at http://www.emailpub.com or contact me if I can help out. Regards, Dan Dan Murray Director of Marketing dan@emailpub.com 303-440-7550 Email Publishing, Inc. http://www.emailpub.com Providing premier email subscription management solutions From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 18:53:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA03768; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:49:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA03654 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA00886 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04210 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List Service Providers In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980203194711.00d1f38c@mail.emailpub.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 3 22:52:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA00573; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA28574 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10780 ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:58:38 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> from "Russ Allbery" at Jan 30, 98 12:09:06 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:54:47 -0800 To: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:12 PM -0800 2/3/98, Grant Neufeld wrote: > At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, > > I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in > my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. That's why I'm building my own search engines for my archive -- so the archives are useful, but the information isn't globally propogated. Because, arguably, there's no reason for the archives to be in theglobal search engines. -- Chuq Von Rospach (chuq@apple.com) Apple IS&T Mail List Gnome Plaidworks Consulting (chuqui@plaidworks.com) ( +-+ The home for Hockey on the net) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 00:22:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA21147; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:56:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from geocities.com (mail4.geocities.com [209.1.224.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA20949 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:55:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from geocities.com (dy1-01.FortStJohn.tvs.net [204.244.93.1]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02651 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:00:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D82E58.494FC4AD@geocities.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:01:12 -0800 From: Superman Fan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LIST MANAGERS Subject: coollist.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? -- Laurie deanandlaurie@geocities.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:24:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA22084; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:44:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA21985 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa18534; 4 Feb 98 6:49 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 04 Feb 98 06:44:41 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Archives From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 06:42:14 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > At 12:12 PM -0800 2/3/98, Grant Neufeld wrote: > > At 11:25 PM -0700 1998/1/30, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > >I now deny all my archives via robots.txt, > > > > I like regular users being able to find the sometimes useful information in > > my list archives, so I don't block them from robots. > > That's why I'm building my own search engines for my archive -- so the > archives are useful, but the information isn't globally propogated. > Because, arguably, there's no reason for the archives to be in > theglobal search engines. There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search engines? mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:37:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA00799; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:24:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA00782 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id JAA26540 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:29:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802041529.JAA26540@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: coollist.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 09:30:41 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: "LIST MANAGERS" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 3:01 AM, Superman Fan wrote... >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? CoolList is a joke, even for a free service. The performance is absolutely terrible, the interface is obnoxious at best, and the ads are insipid and annoying. I'd sooner recommend someone run a list manually than use CoolList. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 07:52:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA04158; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [205.180.106.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA04151 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-61.netxn.com [205.180.106.186]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03242; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:15:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D88FEA.C3372F0C@netxn.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:57:30 -0800 From: Linda Allison Organization: little to none X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Bailey CC: LIST MANAGERS Subject: Re: coollist.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199802041529.JAA26540@quilla.tezcat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey wrote: > > On 2/4/98 3:01 AM, Superman Fan wrote... > > >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? > > CoolList is a joke, even for a free service. The performance is > absolutely terrible, the interface is obnoxious at best, and the ads are > insipid and annoying. I'd sooner recommend someone run a list manually > than use CoolList. We did switch back to running our list manually for a bit after trying coolist. You get what you pay for. Linda Kennedy 'Bluedog Mismanager' http://www.underthesun.com/Bluedog/Bluedog.htm From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 09:25:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA15465; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:48:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA15400 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y084o-0005uH-00; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:53:30 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980204165218.00821290@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:52:18 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is >closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't >robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search >engines? Only if they obey it. If spammer run their own bots this is hardly likely to be the case. Currently we just replace the email address with the "name". Manar From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 10:24:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA00412; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA15058 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:46:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id LAA12848 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:11 -0500 (EST) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199802041652.LAA12848@panix.com> Subject: AOL spam controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:10 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of my subscribers asked to switch to digest a few days ago. Right away I began to get the bounce (below) back from AOL. She says she doesn't know which control is blocking the digests, but hasnt received one yet. Someone suggested to me it could be due to "parental" controls. either way, since I'm not fluent in AOL, there must be some way the subscriber can adjust this. I'd appreciate any suggestions at this point, and pointers, if there is an FAQ on these AOL control functions and they errors they cause. Danny Forwarded message: > From smtp@aol.com Mon Feb 2 18:36:49 1998 > Message-Id: <199802022336.SAA28617@mail1.panix.com> > from: smtp > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:25:50 EST > To: > Subject: Mail Delivery Problem > Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) > Mailer: SLUG [beta 1.3] > > > Sorry owner-ebikes-digest@ebikes.org. Your mail to rougir could not be delivered because rougir is not accepting mail with attachments > -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 10:34:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA00950; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA00714 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id KAA26897; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:14:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA34872 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:17:50 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:19:25 -0800 To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:42 AM -0800 2/4/98, Tim Bowden wrote: > There's a very satisfactory middle ground. Our archive Attic is > closed to the bots but wide open to everyone else. Doesn't > robots.txt accomplish the mission of blocking the search > engines? I don't know that this is middle ground -- that's what I'm doing. Yes, robots cuts out the search engines and other crawlers. Everyone else can get to my archives. And for those who need search engine capability, I'm adding it, but privately, so that this information doesn't end up in the global crawlers. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 11:22:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA08947; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA08911 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id NAA09442 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:02:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802041902.NAA09442@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 13:03:14 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: "List Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 10:52 AM, Danny Lieberman wrote... >One of my subscribers asked to switch to digest a few days ago. >Right away I began to get the bounce (below) back from AOL. > >She says she doesn't know which control is blocking the digests, >but hasnt received one yet. Someone suggested to me it could be >due to "parental" controls. either way, since I'm not fluent in >AOL, there must be some way the subscriber can adjust this. Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and pictures in mail." >I'd appreciate any suggestions at this point, and pointers, if >there is an FAQ on these AOL control functions and they errors >they cause. I suppose I could create a FAQ, though I doubt it would have very wide-reaching interest. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 14:11:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA13236; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:31:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA13224 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:58 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey said in response to a question from Danny Lieberman: | Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than | about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block | on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns | her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to | Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to | your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and | pictures in mail." Mail Controls can be set *only* by logging in under the master screen name? I knew that the user of the master name could set them for subordinate names, but I did not know that the users of the subordinate names could not set them for themselves. That's new information [to me anyway] and it changes a lot for the particular cases on my list. Thank you very much, Adam. Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it out as a rude surprise. An additional problem is that Mail Controls make no distinction between an item that came in with an attachment and a long plain-text message that AOL converted to a file with an attachment. That is just indefensible if you ask me. There appears, moreover, to be no way to prevent the conversion. I've asked several AOL users who consider themselves expert at its mail whether it could be prevented, and none have ever included an answer to that question in their responses. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 14:28:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19090; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA19057 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA73620 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:18:25 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980204211855.20782@impressive.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible >to anyone who might need it! Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, not enlighten. There's such a thing as overkill. And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues override distribution of my archives in that way. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 15:22:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA27498; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA27427 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA00631 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:00:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 17:01:10 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/4/98 3:36 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote... >Adam Bailey said in response to a question from Danny Lieberman: > >| Here's what happened: AOL converts incoming messages that are larger than >| about 25k to attachments. The Parental Control in play here is the block >| on receiving file attachments. Your subscriber, or the person who owns >| her account, will need to sign on with their master screen name, go to >| Keyword: MAIL CONTROLS, select the screen name that they're subscribed to >| your list with, and uncheck the box that says "Block file attachments and >| pictures in mail." > >Mail Controls can be set *only* by logging in under the master screen name? Yes. >I knew that the user of the master name could set them for subordinate names, >but I did not know that the users of the subordinate names could not set them >for themselves. That's new information [to me anyway] and it changes a lot >for the particular cases on my list. Thank you very much, Adam. Welcome. >Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not >tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it >out as a rude surprise. Yup. Why bother informing our children when we can sneak around behind their back and pull their strings? But that's off-topic. >An additional problem is that Mail Controls make no distinction between an >item that came in with an attachment and a long plain-text message that AOL >converted to a file with an attachment. That is just indefensible if you ask >me. Agreed. If AOL's the one making the conversion, it shouldn't then smack you in the face with it. But I don't know if it's possible to make the system work the other way around. Probably not. >There appears, moreover, to be no way to prevent the conversion. I've asked >several AOL users who consider themselves expert at its mail whether it could >be prevented, and none have ever included an answer to that question in their >responses. No, it can't be prevented. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 16:17:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11485; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:53:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA11327 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA39164 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:58:02 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980204225630.21217@impressive.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:50:41 -0800 To: Gerald Oskoboiny , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:08 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >This problem can be handled by establishing clear policies about >archives and informing your users about these policies, and if >necessary by obfuscating e-mail addresses in online archives >to prevent them from being harvested by spammers. > >Of course, each user community is different, And, of course, there are no absolutes in how things are set up. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 16:22:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA05614; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA05591 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18591; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA31120; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA20059; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question To: adamb@tezcat.com (Adam Bailey) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:38:43 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Based on my experiences it seems that more often than not the parents do not > >tell the children that they've put blocks on their email and the kids find it > >out as a rude surprise. > > Yup. Why bother informing our children when we can sneak around behind > their back and pull their strings? My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched bread and low-fat peanut butter, either. Do you suppose we should tell him that the clock in the breakfast room is 3 minutes early so he gets to school on time?? -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 17:07:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA19121; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA18995 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.78.144.194] (lemond.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.144.194]) by eis-msg-005.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04655 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:38:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> References: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:40:51 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kyle Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched >bread and low-fat peanut butter, either. Do you suppose we should tell >him that the clock in the breakfast room is 3 minutes early so he gets >to school on time?? >-- >Mike Nolan Yes, or don't be suprised when he lies to you about where he's been or takes the car without permission... Kyle From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 18:53:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA09406; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:05:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA05873 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:47:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id RAA01436; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8927 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1998 01:56:30 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 5 Feb 1998 01:56:30 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980204195432.00c5bd90@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:54:32 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question In-Reply-To: References: <199802042338.RAA20059@celery.tssi.com> <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:40 PM 2/4/98 -0800, you wrote: >>My son doesn't know that we've been secretly feeding him vitamin enriched [...] >Yes, or don't be suprised when he lies to you about where he's been or [...] Shouldn't a group of list managers know better than to continue a grossly off-topic thread like this? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 19:37:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA24143; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA24095 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (berg@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21362; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:29 -0800 From: Berg Received: (from berg@localhost) by eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29146; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:16 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:09:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802050309.TAA29146@eskimo.com> To: dave@armchair.mb.ca Subject: Re: AOL spam controls question Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Probably, but since we DO run lists, why should we be any different than any other list subscribers? ;) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 19:43:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA18560; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA18464 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id SAA06128; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:41:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:41:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800 From: Chuq Von Rospach At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible >to anyone who might need it! Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, not enlighten. There's such a thing as overkill. And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues override distribution of my archives in that way. I want both things. Accessability and privacy. I want any visitor to my webpage to be able to access the archives but I don't want search engines picking them up. Right now, I more or less have that. The archives are in the FTP area of my web space so the search engines don't get them. The path to them is clearly accessable from the web site. A friend is writing me a local search engine so people can pull up indivudual messages via keywords. Right now, they are arranged chronologically in files by month. Most are gzipped. Are there global search engines I have to worry about that do FTP sites? I know such things exist, but are they used much? Are they used by spammers? Will the existance of a local search program change anything? I don't even have room for all my archives gzipped (they are currently spread over 3 different accounts; the list has been running over 7 years) let alone a back up copy with full attributions, though I'm in the process of getting CD backups. A word about robots.txt. It doesn't work for most of us. I set it up and the search engines (altavista) still went to the pages, months later. I had blocked out an entire subdirectory and I know I did the logistics correctly. I asked around my ISP's local newsgroups and it turns out that you can only block directories if the robots.txt file is at the top level (i.e., if you have a custom domain). I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It would perhaps keep out searches of, say, http://www.mydomain.com/keepout/privatepage.html but how would it stop a search of the very same file which is also known as, http://www.best.com/~cnorman/keepout/privatepage.html ?? People on the groups mentioned alternatives to robots.txt where you put an HTML command on each page you don't want searched. But I'm afraid it didn't make any sense to me. Is there someone who could give me the code (I know HTML and could probably implement it with a brief explaination) to block searches of indivudual pages? If there is a way to block directories or FTP sites from search engines, I'd appreciate that very much. Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 4 21:07:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12022; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11877 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22096 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:08:10 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:04:50 -0800 To: cnorman@best.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@shell7.ba.best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:41 PM -0800 2/4/98, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Are there global search engines I have to worry about that do FTP sites? They don't search FTP sites per-se, but if you have urls pointing to stuff on an FTP site, then when the search engine wanders across your links, the data on the FTP site will be added by many of them. This isn't a protection from the search engines, unless you put a robots.txt on your ftp site (and do so via an HTTP daemon). > I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's > really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It should work if (and only if) is readable. If your virtual hosting doesn't allow for that, it won't. And it's also possible that places like Alta vista aren't honoring the Host: fields, and that could be causing problems.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 11:23:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA28720; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA28690 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: another AOL Mail Controls question To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:25:24 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199802042300.RAA00631@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at Feb 4, 98 05:01:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An additional question about AOL's Mail Controls: Can the user of the subordinate screen name see on line what types of its mail and which addresses have been blocked by the master account, or is asking the user of the master account (and hoping for a truthful answer) the only way to find out? From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 13:23:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18340; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA18325 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 16:10:19 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Walkers List Moderator , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Trapping MIME content? Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9802051610.aa06802@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Would someone here be so kind as to break down these and explain exactly >what each one does? Some of us are regex-impaired. :) > >>taboo_headers << END >>/^Content\-Type\:\s+(?!text\/plain)/i >>END >> >>... though it might be too strict for your needs, in which case try: >> >>taboo_headers << END >>/^Content\-Type\:\s+multipart/i >>END Take a look at . Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 13:54:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA24986; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from list.audubon.org (www.audubon.org [38.242.205.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA24806 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [38.242.205.99] (38.242.205.99) by list.audubon.org (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.0B6B5910@list.audubon.org>; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802050241.SAA06128@shell7.ba.best.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:16 -0800) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:46:08 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chris Pepper Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyndi, Check out for the Robots Exclusion Standard. Short form: well-behaved robots look for /robots.txt (note -- this is a file at the top level of the server; they *DO NOT* look in every directory for files named robots.txt) for instructions before they start spidering sites. If you can get to your site via two different hostnames that give you differnet effective top-level directories, you'll need your exclusion entries in two different robots.txt files. To block people using URLs of the form , you'll need a robots.txt file in the same directory as the keepout directory. To prevent robots from following the URL , you'll need an entry in the main robots.txt file, adjacent to Best's home page. For this case, since you can't edit directly, you'll probably want to send a note to webmaster@best.com, asking them to create a file named robots.txt at the top level of their content tree containing these two lines: User-agent: * Disallow: /~cnorman/ You can also exclude specific pages (but not whole directories) with META tags -- check out the page at WebCrawler for details on this method. Chris PS-If you can get to your home directory via a full path, as well as by a user (tilde) path, you might want to exclude that as well. At 9:41 PM -0500 02/04/98, Cyndi Norman wrote: >A word about robots.txt. It doesn't work for most of us. I set it up and >the search engines (altavista) still went to the pages, months later. I >had blocked out an entire subdirectory and I know I did the logistics >correctly. I asked around my ISP's local newsgroups and it turns out that >you can only block directories if the robots.txt file is at the top level >(i.e., if you have a custom domain). > >I don't really understand this though. If I have a custom domain that's >really a virtual domain, why would robots.txt work? It would perhaps keep >out searches of, say, http://www.mydomain.com/keepout/privatepage.html but >how would it stop a search of the very same file which is also known as, >http://www.best.com/~cnorman/keepout/privatepage.html ?? > >People on the groups mentioned alternatives to robots.txt where you put an >HTML command on each page you don't want searched. But I'm afraid it >didn't make any sense to me. Is there someone who could give me the code >(I know HTML and could probably implement it with a brief explaination) to >block searches of indivudual pages? If there is a way to block directories >or FTP sites from search engines, I'd appreciate that very much. -- Chris Pepper | National Audubon Society: Web & List Manager 212 979 3092 | From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 17:09:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA24150; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA08410 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:56:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tardis.Tymnet.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.8.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-970426) id OAA09471; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jms@localhost) by tardis.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06391; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:01:21 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199802052301.PAA06391@tardis.Tymnet.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Archives and robots.txt Cc: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > To prevent robots from following the URL > , you'll need an > entry in the main robots.txt file, adjacent to Best's home page. I sent mail to Cindy with the proper solution. Since her pages are served by BESTWWWD, the answer is to add one line to her "public_html/.bhtaccess" file: UserRedirect / http://www.mydomain.com/ It tells the server to perform the redirect for any URL that resolves to her directory and starts with "www.best.com/~". This feature appears to be unique to the BESTWWWD server. -Joe From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 19:07:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA07387; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:00:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA07167 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id VAA14900 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:05:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802060305.VAA14900@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: another AOL Mail Controls question Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 21:06:39 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/5/98 1:25 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote... >An additional question about AOL's Mail Controls: > >Can the user of the subordinate screen name see on line what types of its >mail and which addresses have been blocked by the master account, No. >or is >asking the user of the master account (and hoping for a truthful answer) >the only way to find out? Yes. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 5 19:53:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA11064; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA26301 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y0dSr-000ifFC; Thu, 5 Feb 98 18:24 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Poll/Voting Facility To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:24:24 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It has been suggested to me that this group might be interested in this piece of software. Although it was written around majordomo, the majordomo-specific part is small and isolated and the source code is included so adapting to any list-server would be a small job. Marilyn Davis ----- eVote 2.2 Released eVote is a freely available add-on to email list-servers that empowers the members of the list with the ability to poll each other. After installation of the software, the administrator is not involved. All participants have powers to open polls, vote, change their votes, and view each other's votes, if the particular poll was so configured. Participants who know the list's password have overriding powers to force the deletion of polls and removal of participants. The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely available for Linux systems only. eVote 2.2 is available at http://www.deliberate.com in both English and French. This version also provides a remotely controlled email petition service that ensures only one signature per email address, issues a receipt, provides facility to remove one's own signature, supports form-based signatures, and coordinates with remote web sites. Please see http://www.deliberate.com/aztec for an example. Contact: Marilyn Davis mdavis@deliberate.com http://www.Deliberate.Com (415) 493-3631 From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:05:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17476; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17468 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id IAA24540 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA03464; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:03:31 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9801310142.1.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:52:43 -0500 To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown), postmaster@aol.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Open Letter Regarding Spam Blocking Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 1:42 -0500 1/31/98, Bob Brown sent everyone: >OK, AOL... here's what I want you to do about this: Please fix your >mailer system so that your customers can't send mail *to* a domain >they've blocked. Give them a reasonable error message, one that >explains how to remove a block, and let them decide whether to keep >the block, but don't let them send me any more plaintive messages I >can't do anything about! Yup, people have called for this before. It makes a *lot* of sense -- which is probably EXACTLY the reason that AOL doesn't implement it. "No ... That's just what they'd be EXPECTING us to do." - Vince Sabio vince@humournet.com Automatically process bounces from mailing lists: From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:10:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17350; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17330 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with SMTP id HAA02876 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #12 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Open Letter Regarding Spam Blocking To: bbrown@dkmc.org (Bob Brown) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9801310142.1.UUL1.3#25605@dkmc.org> from "Bob Brown" at Jan 31, 98 01:42:03 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob Brown told us about his trials with AOL's Mail Controls: | *Then* they try to rezubscribe to one of the lower-volume lists, or | they complain that their zubscription stopped. One kind person wrote | to observe that our web page hadn't been updated lately and to inquire | whether I am OK. (I'm not. I have the flu.) I was touched by the | message, but I *can't reply to it*! Another one sends me a message | about once a month saying, "I did something wrong... I want to be back | on the list." I remember this person from high school, I had a crush | on her, but I can't help her because she has my mail blocked! I can't | even tell her why I can't help. My list attracts a lot of teenagers. AOL lets the principal owner of an account set Mail Controls for all subsidiary screen names, and one option refuses all mail from outside AOL. Often Mommy or Daddy gets persuaded that that setting is *the* cure for email viruses or spam and rushes to protect Junior or Princess from the big, bad Internet. Then the parent says nothing to the child so that the child doesn't know; or the parent says some vague thing about "AOL has a setting to keep your computer from getting a virus through it, so I turned it on for you;" or the parent even describes it properly to the child but the child doesn't understand the ramifications. | OK, AOL... here's what I want you to do about this: Please fix your | mailer system so that your customers can't send mail *to* a domain | they've blocked. Give them a reasonable error message, one that | explains how to remove a block, and let them decide whether to keep | the block, but don't let them send me any more plaintive messages I | can't do anything about! Agreed a thousand times over! I called for that months ago. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 6 18:20:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA17369; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA17354 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-971021-1) with ESMTP id HAA27507 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bcc.louisville.edu (jad@bcc.louisville.edu [136.165.140.24]) by bcc.louisville.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA28669 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:09:39 -0500 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:09:37 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason A. Dour" To: List Managers Subject: Altering Archives (WAS: Re: Ever Been Sued?) In-Reply-To: <199801302047.OAA07882@bif.cd.com> Message-ID: Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, Richard Masoner wrote: > Have any other owners of archived lists had similar requests to remove > archived email? I run several lists, all of them archived, and I have to say that yes I've been approached to alter the archives by various subscribers. I've received several such requests over the years that I've run my lists, and I've only as yet allowed one such change. Most of the time, I politely tell them that they agreed to the archival of their messages when they read the letter of introduction and stayed zubscribed to the list. There was one case where I agreed to make the alteration, however. I run an internet-based fan club for fans of PJ Harvey. At one point, her management decided to join the mailing list to listen in on her fans' conversations anonymously. Said management wanted to send me a press release one day, and being new to the internet, they sent it to the list instead, giving everyone on the list a copy of a personal letter to me containing a bit of "tell them it's official, but not who it's from" information. I quickly informed them of their mistake, and told them the ramifications (loss of their anonymity on the list, et cetera). They politely thanked me for informing me of their mistake, and asked if I could alter the logged copy so that at least for people who didn't save the message at their end, the anonymity would be protected. After considering this at fair length, I went ahead and altered the archives, removing any indentifying information from that one message (putting in xxx@xxx for email, xxx.xxx for hostname, removal of signature, et cetera). In retrospect, I'd make the same decision today -- there would have been negative repurcussions for the site had I not taken care to attempt recovery of their anonymity, and we wouldn't have the same relationship with those people that we have now. Sure, we broke our own rules, but the site has benefitted from that transgression... Jason # "Jason A. Dour" # Programmer Analyst II; Department of Radiation Oncology; Univ. of Lou. # Finger for URLs, PGP public key, geek code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNNM+s5o1JaC71RLxAQFFEwQApmoU14BrhxhFQOphyvBzvJBAkyvoXZMT CRAfHiy+9OCuPx6rlSlg5TshnYo1jC84aN4buTDQeapQNc0ZqpjkvqnSK7U+hsEm NufNm3a8lQapfyFJcodqMRcBnvn2fXcoMHi+Of5uZ47oRqGa9jeCIX0iL/PKj5yh HPigSwoWXcg= =TMg4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 7 09:20:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA18016; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from Nimrud.eet.bme.hu (nimrud.eet.bme.hu [152.66.72.97]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA17982 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:11:30 -0800 (PST) From: hosszu@nimrud.eet.bme.hu Received: from 152.66.72.97 (communio.hcbc.hu [193.225.109.1]) by Nimrud.eet.bme.hu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA32005 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:16:21 +0100 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:16:21 +0100 Message-Id: <199802071716.SAA32005@Nimrud.eet.bme.hu> X-Sender: hosszu@152.66.72.97 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Digest configuration Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Readers, I am a beginner in "majordomo-science". I run a lot of list, but I want to create digest. Could you send me some example: digest configuration file: e.g.: test-digest.config alias list: e.g.: /etc/aliases Could you send me a tip for an appropriate directory structure? My directories: /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/digest /usr/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/test-digest.arhcive Any help that you could provide would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Gabor ----------------------------------------------------------- Gabor Hosszu, Associate Professor, Dept. of Electron Devices Tech. Univ. of Budapest, T:+36-1-463-4034, F:+36-1-463-2973 Address: H-1111 Budapest, Goldmann Gy. t. 3., Hungary From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 13:35:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA28082; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nexus.pigsfly.com (nexus.pigsfly.com [207.226.166.137]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28063 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pslfl4-53.gate.net ([199.227.20.244]) by nexus.pigsfly.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-40113U100L100S0) with SMTP id AAA215; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 16:30:11 -0500 From: jtlist@pigsfly.com (Jerry Trowbridge) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Ever Been Sued? Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 21:30:11 GMT Organization: Flying Pig Ranch Reply-To: jtlist@pigsfly.com Message-ID: <34e11e91.11319416@pop.pigsfly.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:28:30 -0600 (CST), Mitchell Leben wrote: >Time for me to come out of the woodwork and ask a few questions. > >A list member has threatened to sue me because I first filtered posts from >his account, then removed him from the list. He became the center of a >flame war, and caused many people to leave the list. People wrote to me >privately explaining they left because of him, or requesting he be removed >or they will leave. I did send this individual a warning message, which he >viewed as an attack. His on list behavior became increasingly rude and >abrasive, and I gave him the boot. We just went through something like this, but it was even more problematic because the person was, on the one hand a valued member of the list because of his technical acumen. On the other, he was rude, belligerent and bellicose. He spent a lot of time attacking the company that makes the software that is the subject of our list, sometimes for good technical reason, but his attacks often strayed into personal attack on the people at the company. We're close to them, and feel bad, but we are also under no control from them, and we all like that. An unfettered discussion actually helps them, though I am sure they wince a lot from the uncalled for personal attack. Last week, our listmember became an ex-listmember when he threatened to sue for "slander" someone else on the list who had questioned how this hothead had gotten the software in the first place. He didn't pay for it, and the exact nature of his ownership is in some doubt. When we asked him to retract the legal threat, he threatened us as well. He then farmed the list from his own archives and started accusing us in private mail of removing him because he has said unflattering things about the software. We made one statement about why he had been removed, and sat back and let the discussion rage. Our position was that he was welcome to threaten to sue people, but he wasn't going to do it on our list. He was welcome back if he'd retract the threats, apologize and agree to not use our list to threaten again. Also, we are trying to protect a space where there is a free and unfettered debate. This is not because we're under any obligation to do so, just because that's what we'd like. But that means we do have to protect the group against people who are litigious and want to suppress the debate through threats of defamation suits. In essence, this guy is soiling his own nest, and as somebody whose keyboard is more likely to get him in trouble than the average listmember, you'd think he'd understand our efforts. One of the ruminations he made was the "shopping center cases." (We avoided attempting to argue the law with him, but his choice of cases gave us great comfort). One of the spam cases, Cyberpromo v. AOL, found Cyberpromo trying a first amendment argument against AOL and quoting the "quasi-public" shopping center case: Logan Valley Plaza. The justices pointed to the Lloyds case as a limit to Logan Valley, and found that there was no state component in AOL, so the quasi-public cases don't apply. I saw this initial posting some time ago, and this thread has been helpful to us as we've been through our little teapot tempest. We haven't been sued so far, and it appears that after some initial beating, we've emerged as heros for providing the list in the first place, and stepping in to stop a barroom brawl that clearly had gone too far. So hang in there. We've gotten lots of supporting public and private notes, and the tormenters have pretty much fallen to just wondering why the hell we're willing to do all of what we do for free. And ya know...I don't know if there's a real good answer for that. - Jerry Trowbridge --at Flying Pig Ranch From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:21:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09143; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA09135 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (smtphost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA08649 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from london.ijt.org (iwpr.org.uk) by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA01853 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 03:46:22 GMT Received: by london.ijt.org(Lotus SMTP MTA SMTP v4.6 (462.2 9-3-1997)) id 802565A5.00063DF9 ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:03:29 +0000 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: IJT From: "Ashley Drees" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-Id: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 18:15:27 +0000 Subject: NT listserve Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:24:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06242; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06232 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:36:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA26016 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 04:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from rebecca-sinclai (slip166-72-248-126.ri.us.ibm.net [166.72.248.126]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA64330 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:16:59 GMT Message-Id: <199802041216.MAA64330@out1.ibm.net> X-Sender: eclect01@netnation.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:15:42 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Reb Subject: Re: Coolist In-Reply-To: <199802040937.BAA07186@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 01:01:12 -0800 >From: Superman Fan >Subject: coollist.com > >Anyone have any luck using CoolList as a server? I use SVList to manage my three email lists. No experience with CoolList as a server from that end, but from a user end, I do. And the experience wasn't pleasant. I got stuck on a list that would not let you unsubscribe. It was so bad that people who kept trying to unsubscribe ended up putting together a make-shift cc list to exchange ideas on how to go about getting off the list. In the end it took over a month. Looking back, it was funny. But only looking back. The people who'd gotten stuck on that list were adamant about never trying another list hosted there. On a personal level, I treat the place like the plague now -- no matter how interested I am in the subject, if it's hosted by CoolList, I won't subscribe to it. Reb http://www.eclectics.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:28:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06590; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06570 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11878 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22064 ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:08:08 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980204165218.00821290@stingray.ivision.co.uk> References: <4cTDke1w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:02:01 -0800 To: Manar Hussain , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:52 AM -0800 2/4/98, Manar Hussain wrote: > Only if they obey it. If spammer run their own bots this is hardly likely > to be the case. If a spammer is sophisticated and motivated enough to search out archives and custom-surf them, then you can't stop them from harvesting addresses. They'll just subscribe to the list and harvest from it directly. Protecting your archives is a good thing. Protecting them more than you can protect the list itself is wasted energy. The reality is, if someone targets your list, all you can do is slow them down. Unless, of course, they're incompetent, which many of these slime are. But the good ones? They'll win. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to just harvest the global archives and not have to write the code to harvest lists individually (and find them, and....) -- so the trick is to not make your data available where they're harvesting. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:32:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA06480; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA06463 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02365 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.impressive.net (root@dialup-2229.lcs.mit.edu [18.23.2.229]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA20424; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (gerald@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.impressive.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA21682; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:09 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:07 -0500 (EST) From: Gerald Oskoboiny To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Grant Neufeld , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Archives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19980204225630.21217@impressive.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 1:33 PM -0800 2/4/98, Gerald Oskoboiny wrote: > > >I disagree -- there's a very good reason for archives to be in > >global search engines: so the information is easily accessible > >to anyone who might need it! > > Sorry, but my experience is that the archives tend to clog things up, > not enlighten. That's true in many cases, but that problem is handled well by search engines providing options to exclude mail/news archives from searches. (or you can add negative search terms yourself if they don't.) > And even if I didn't believe that was true, my users privacy issues > override distribution of my archives in that way. This problem can be handled by establishing clear policies about archives and informing your users about these policies, and if necessary by obfuscating e-mail addresses in online archives to prevent them from being harvested by spammers. Of course, each user community is different, and some forums have a higher need for privacy than others. Gerald -- Gerald Oskoboiny http://impressive.net/people/gerald/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:35:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05916; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05907 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:33:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA15778 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilkins (bollow@wilkins [129.132.146.146]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id PAA27717; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 (MET) Received: (bollow@localhost) by wilkins (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id PAA00522; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:42 +0100 Message-Id: <199802031450.PAA00522@wilkins> From: Norbert Bollow To: palmieri@axidia.fr CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <01BD309D.A2CB8ED0@hawai.axidia.fr> (palmieri@axidia.fr) Subject: Re: MLM hosts Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Palmieri Frank wrote: > What are the best solutions to have a mailing list hosted ? Provided that you can afford it, the best solution will be to have a dedicated server, i.e. get a PC which will not need to be upgraded or modified as long as your mailing lists work well. This server can be located in the offices of some ISP where it'll profit from their excellent internet connection. You can protect your server from the risk of hard disk failures by using a method called RAID. This is short for "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks", and in addition to protecting you from data loss in increases performance. This does not require any expensive hard- or software. Simply get a modern PC with several hard disks and run Linux, see http://linas.org/linux/raid.html for details. (I would suggest software RAID 1.) Then hire a competent person to set up your mailing list(s) with archives, etc., exactly like you want them. Of course, all of this costs money... much more than what many ISPs charge for hosting a few mailing lists. But the solutions which they offer, while good enough for many purposes, will not be the 'best solutions' about which you have been asking. May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:37:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08107; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA08096 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA29048 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (vaden [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id PAA05392; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:40 +0100 (MET) Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id PAA29287; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:39 +0100 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:39:39 +0100 Message-Id: <199802061439.PAA29287@vaden.math.ethz.ch> From: Norbert Bollow To: marilyn@deliberate.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (marilyn@deliberate.com) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Marilyn Davis wrote: > The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely > available for Linux systems only. Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is distributed as an executable only, with no source code available. Why should we trust your software? May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 8 21:50:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA13694; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA13679 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:48:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from core0.mx.execpc.com (mail.execpc.com [169.207.16.2]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id XAA09652 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:53:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from presario-7212 (galaan-24.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.40.89]) by core0.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14172 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:52:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34DE91C4.2822@execpc.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 23:19:00 -0600 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Coolist References: <199802041216.MAA64330@out1.ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reb wrote: No experience with CoolList as a > server from that end, but from a user end, I do. And the experience wasn't > pleasant. I got stuck on a list that would not let you uns*bscribe. Maybe I'm lucky. I tried to s*bscribe to 3 coollist lists several days ago and my subscription requests won't go through. My ISP sent back a non-fatal error; will keep trying for 5 days sort of message. The list-manager of another coollist list that I s*bscribe to reports that all messages to the list have been bouncing for the past week and his e-mail to them goes unanswered. GK From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:06:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA11338; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA11124 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:55:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y1o7O-000iefC; Sun, 8 Feb 98 23:59 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > Marilyn Davis wrote: > > > The underlying specialized data-server, The Clerk, is also freely > > available for Linux systems only. > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions as you wish. > distributed as an executable only, with no source code available. Why > should we trust your software? Source for all the user interfaces is with the release, certainly enough to assure you of the high quality and good intentions. Do you have a specific worry that I can speak to? * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! > Norbert. > > -- > Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM > Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ > > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:28:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA12935; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pentioum90.silverquick.com (mail.omegaweb.co.uk [194.205.38.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA01657 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 23:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [194.205.38.50] by pentioum90.silverquick.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ba390547 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:36:43 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980209071832.009a4820@mail.silverquick.com> X-Sender: gordon@mail.silverquick.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 07:25:44 +0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Gordon Burns Subject: Re: NT listserve Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 18:15 07/02/98 +0000 Ashley Drees said.... >Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? > You could try NtList part of the NT Mail suite. http://www.ntmail.co.uk We run many lists including a 1000 member 100 messages a day list as well as 350,000 weekly newsletter using NTList. Gordon From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 00:52:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA19132; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA19057 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 00:47:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id CAA17968 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:48 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id CAA02349; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:42 -0600 Message-ID: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:52:41 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Sun, Feb 08, 1998 at 11:59:05PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 23:59 -0800, 08 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is > > Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions > as you wish. You recommend that it be run as root even though it doesn't need to be? That gives me a lot of confidence. Ever hear of the principle of least priviledge? -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ Bus error -- please leave by the rear door. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 04:51:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA05535; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:49:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA05528 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 04:48:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <199802090645.claire.98022451@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 06:45:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: NT listserve Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 98 at 18:15, Ashley Drees wrote: > Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? mailtraq : http://www.fastraq.demon.co.uk/ -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 09:23:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA28293; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from revnet1.revnet.com (revnet1.revnet.com [198.51.35.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA13065 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:06:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majestic.revnet.com (majestic.revnet.com [198.51.35.45]) by revnet1.revnet.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA00158; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:16:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199802091616.KAA00158@revnet1.revnet.com> X-Sender: mmead@revnet1.revnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:06:03 -0600 To: "Ashley Drees" , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marc Mead Subject: Re: NT listserve In-Reply-To: <802565A4.006430FC.00@london.ijt.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 06:15 PM 2/7/98 +0000, Ashley Drees wrote: >Apart from listserv, is there any way to get a list on NT4? > GroupMaster: http://www.groupmaster.com UnityMail: http://www.unitymail.com Marc Mead Revnet Systems http://www.revnet.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 12:52:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA09062; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA08777 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y201P-000ielC; Mon, 9 Feb 98 12:41 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:41:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 9, 98 02:52:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aaron, Thanks for your sarcastic remarks, I -think-. :^) I'm never sure how to take sarcasm, even face to face, but I wouldn't lose confidence in the software because of *this*. The software author (me), who is admittedly obsessed with online democracy, believes that if you keep votes for your online community, it is the single biggest responsibility happening in your machine. This characteristic of the author is a good sign about the software. I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root because then only one password has access to the data files. But, you can do as you wish, of course. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > At 23:59 -0800, 08 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > > Thanks for your comment, Norbert. > > > > > > Hmm... the instructions say that it should be run as root, but it is > > > > Actually, it's only a recommendation. You can set up the permissions > > as you wish. > > You recommend that it be run as root even though it doesn't need to be? > That gives me a lot of confidence. Ever hear of the > principle of least priviledge? > > -- > Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ > Bus error -- please leave by the rear door. > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 14:26:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28347; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA14303 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0y20S6-00030L-00; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:09:18 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980209210805.00815200@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 21:08:05 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root >because then only one password has access to the data files. I haven't used your software so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick - but if anyone other than root can cause effect to a process (cause it to run, effect data that it reads etc.) that you run as root then I'd consider that a potential security rule. On the whole - never run anything as root unless you absolutely have to - create new users as required who can only do the things that need to be done for that task. Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 9 18:07:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03863; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:15:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03477 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:13:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA06307; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:19:00 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id TAA12808; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:18:54 -0600 Message-ID: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:18:54 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: Marilyn Davis Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: Marilyn Davis , list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <19980209025241.45047@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Mon, Feb 09, 1998 at 12:41:43PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:41 -0800, 09 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I'm never sure how to take sarcasm, even face to face, but I wouldn't > lose confidence in the software because of *this*. I would. To me suggesting that software is run as root when there's no need shows that there is either little concern for security or little understanding of security, and makes me wonder what problems may be in the code itself. > The software author (me), who is admittedly obsessed with online > democracy, believes that if you keep votes for your online community, > it is the single biggest responsibility happening in your machine. > This characteristic of the author is a good sign about the software. > > I feel safer running The Clerk (the underlying dataserver) as root > because then only one password has access to the data files. It may be the most important thing running on the machine, but that doesn't mean it should be run as root. With it running as root, a bug in the software may allow access to everything on the machine; after a compromise you then need to reinstall everything before the machine can be trusted again. If the program runs as a dedicated user (which could be set up so that no password will allow access to the account), a hole only allows access to the voting data, so the consequences of a break in are much smaller. -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ A Linux machine! because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste! -- Joe Sloan From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 10 10:55:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA20895; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA20875 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:40:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y2Kfw-000ifUC; Tue, 10 Feb 98 10:44 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:44:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: marilyn@deliberate.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 9, 98 07:18:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aaron, > be trusted again. If the program runs as a dedicated user (which could > be set up so that no password will allow access to the account), a hole A ha! I didn't know about this. I'll fix it up. > only allows access to the voting data, so the consequences of a break in > are much smaller. But honestly, the code itself is good. I may not know so much about security but I know a lot about serving data. As I understand you, this fixes the machine's security, which admittedly is of less concern to me than vote security. Of course we haven't spoken yet about vote security. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com > > -- > Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ > A Linux machine! because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste! > -- Joe Sloan > From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 10 23:32:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA21418; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA21254 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id AAA15480; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:33:06 -0600 (CST) Received: by fnord.execpc.com id AAA27411; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:32:59 -0600 Message-ID: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:32:59 -0600 From: Aaron Schrab To: Marilyn Davis Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) Mail-Followup-To: Marilyn Davis , list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com References: <19980209191854.58715@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Marilyn Davis on Tue, Feb 10, 1998 at 10:44:56AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:44 -0800, 10 Feb. 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > But honestly, the code itself is good. I may not know so much about > security but I know a lot about serving data. Any time that a someone is able to pass data to a program operating with a priviledge that he/she has does not have, security should be one of the (if not *the*) primary concerns. And, that is the case here, a user feeds data to a program running on a machine that he/she doesn't have access to. There are some basic checks that definately should (must) be done to lessen the chances of a break in. Many of these checks are not necessary to ensure that the program operates correctly under normal conditions, and so are not done by someone who is not thinking about the security ramifications. > As I understand you, this fixes the machine's security, which admittedly > is of less concern to me than vote security. If root on the machine is compromised, so is the vote (and, quite possibly, much of the local network). The opposite is not true, therefore the vote security is actually less important (although maybe only slightly). -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 11 02:48:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA09318; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 01:32:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA25001 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:42:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y2Vvg-000ieIC; Tue, 10 Feb 98 22:45 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) To: aaron+lm@schrab.com (Aaron Schrab) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:45:56 -0800 (PST) Cc: marilyn@deliberate.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, development@deliberate.com In-Reply-To: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> from "Aaron Schrab" at Feb 11, 98 00:32:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks again Aaron, Norbert Bollow taught us about the '*' in the encrypted password field of the password file producing a new user that only root can access. This is just what we need and solves all arguments. There is no reason to chose a priority. I really can't blame us too much for not knowing this tidbit. Our man pages don't mention it that I can find. I found it in one book of man pages but it was very poorly documented and didn't say exactly what it is. Is part of Linux security *not* to document such an excellent security feature? :^) But we've tested it and we're on the road to better security. So thanks everyone for pointing out our error. BTW, if Norbert were to report the security bug to bugs@deliberate.com, I'd snail-mail him tickets to a party on Dec 31, 1999. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 11 07:45:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA02044; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from grinch.whoville.leftbank.com (grinch.leftbank.com [139.167.128.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA02034 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from zax.whoville.leftbank.com by grinch.whoville.leftbank.com via smtpd (for honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) with SMTP; 11 Feb 1998 15:42:09 UT Received: from horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (horton.whoville.leftbank.com [139.167.32.35]) by zax.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/LeftBank-1.1/http://www.leftbank.com/) with ESMTP id KAA27622; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nmehl@localhost) by horton-x.whoville.leftbank.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/http://www.LeftBank.Com) id KAA05804; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980211104157.44809@leftbank.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:41:57 -0500 From: "Nathan J. Mehl" To: Marilyn Davis Cc: Aaron Schrab , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, development@deliberate.com Subject: Re: Poll/Voting Facility (fwd) References: <19980211003259.52495@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85