From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 21:24:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23764; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA23738 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05781 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Privacy of Zubscribers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I own and host a public lizt whose membership is not available to the public. I don't make any great claims to privacy, but do my best to respect everyone's privacy. It seems member #2 received hate mail from someone using an anonymous mailer, and suspects someone on the list. He asked me if I have anyone from the domain xxx.yyy.zzz, and I do. Just one zubscriber. I have not mentioned this fact to member #2, for a couple of reasons: 1. I do not care to get involved in an issue between two zubscribers off the list. 2. Protecting the privacy of zubscriber #1 (the suspected hate mailer). What would you do? Thanks. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 21:53:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA04285; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA03962 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05067; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:48:28 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:59:26 -0500 To: Mitchell Leben From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 0:02 -0500 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben said: >It seems member #2 received hate mail from someone using an anonymous >mailer, and suspects someone on the list. He asked me if I have anyone >from the domain xxx.yyy.zzz, and I do. Just one zubscriber. If the person used an anonymous mailer, how does subscriber #2 (god, but those "z"s are annoying) know what domain the message came from? Doesn't seem to be very anonymous. >I have not mentioned this fact to member #2, for a couple of reasons: > >1. I do not care to get involved in an issue between two zubscribers off >the list. > >2. Protecting the privacy of zubscriber #1 (the suspected hate mailer). > >What would you do? If the hate message was in some way related to the list's topic, then I would send a message to the list condemning such actions, but not naming any of the participating parties (suspected or otherwise). I'd also request that anyone who receives such list-related hate messages forward them to you (off the list). And finally, that anyone who is found to be sending these messages will be banned from the list. (Of course, this is effective only if your list is not archived in any publicly-accessible manner.) For the most part, off-list discussions are not within the purview of the list owner. However, hate mail is another issue -- and if it is perceived to be associated with subscribing (and, of course, *posting*) to a particular mailing list, then the targets of the hate mail might eventually start to unsubscribe. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 23:55:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA00281; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA00257 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10220 ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:59:37 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:40:12 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:59 PM -0800 3/1/98, Vince Sabio wrote: > For the most part, off-list discussions are not within the purview of > the list owner. Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility for this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and it's still the list's reputation that gets hurt ("don't go there, they'll flame your ass...") -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:24:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA27327; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net ([166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA27320 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA08414; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15365; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:35:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:35:02 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list > subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the > list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility > for this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and > it's still the list's reputation that gets hurt ("don't go there, > they'll flame your ass...") As a general rule, I am not concerned with private disputes. Most classic "you are an idiot" style flame wars die off very quickly in private email when there is no audience to watch the exchange. I will not say that I would never get involved in a private disputes that spin off from a list discussion. If a private flame war were to escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar problems, I may offer assistance if asked. In the past five years, I have seen only one private dispute which required my attention. IMHO, a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:26:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA15486; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA15228 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04189 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17516 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:42:08 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:14 -0800 To: murr rhame , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:35 AM -0800 3/2/98, murr rhame wrote: >If a private flame war were to > escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar > problems, I may offer assistance if asked. Key words are "if asked". In general, if I'm asked to help, it's no longer minor. > IMHO, > a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. If a private discussion GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin is responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and the list's reputation follows that, too). If users get harrassed or abused off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does that say about the list? You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:38:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28445; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA28381 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA03783 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA28228 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:24 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. If a private discussion > GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin > is responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and > the list's reputation follows that, too). If users get harrassed or > abused off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does > that say about the list? > > You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone > can see. Thank you for correcting my typo. One can not wash their hands of a problem when one does not know that a problem exists. How would you get involved in an off-list conflict if the dispute was truly private? As I said, if a list related problem comes to my attention, I'll deal with it as needed. Most flame wars die off very quickly when there is no audience to watch the exchange. The need to prove, defend or redeem yourself in public is the primary fuel of flame wars. When you remove the "public" from the dispute, most flame wars end quietly for lack of interest. I have run various mailing lists for a long time. In my experience, off-list disputes which exceed very brief name-calling exchanges are extremely rare. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:54:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01992; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA01974 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17314 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1998 20:59:29 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 20:59:29 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:56:59 -0600 To: Chuq Von Rospach , murr rhame , Chuq Von Rospach From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:38 AM 3/2/98 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> IMHO, >> a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. > >Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. [...] > >You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. IMNSHO, you can certainly wash your hands of private disputes that result merely because subscribers got into a tiff. The fact that they happened to meet on your list, rather than a bar somewhere, is immaterial. On the other hand, if you have subscribers who deliberately and repeatedly use your list as a tool to facilitate harrassment, that's very different, and the admin should take action. I have found the former is usually adequately handled with a firm admonishment not to waste my time trying to get me to arbitrate private disputes. Indeed, I often insist that on-list arguments be taken off-line. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 13:25:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA07696; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA07474 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA32690 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:34 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:16:11 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , Chuq Von Rospach , murr rhame From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >IMNSHO, you can certainly wash your hands of private disputes that result >merely because subscribers got into a tiff. The fact that they happened to >meet on your list, rather than a bar somewhere, is immaterial. > >On the other hand, if you have subscribers who deliberately and repeatedly >use your list as a tool to facilitate harrassment, that's very different, >and the admin should take action. IMHO, too often llist administrators use the first part to excuse themselves from ANY responsibility. There's a reason why bars hire bouncers. If a bartender ignores a fight in the parking lot because he's kicked them out of the bar or because "it's not my problem", he better hope they don't shoot or stab each other, or he'll spend a huge amount of time explaining things to the police. Ditto list adminning. Yes, it's perfectly valid to take a look, slap both sides silly for being idiots, and choose not to get involved. But the admin should choose to not get involved situationally -- and they better look and make sure it's a case where it doesn't warrant it. Too many admins do it the bass-ackward way of waiting until someone points out the blood in the parking lot. Admins have a responsibility to their list users here. Many want desperately to believe they don't. Yes, there definitely ARE times when the answer is to not get involved. In fact, it is the vast majority of times (or at worst, a generalized chewing out or come-to-Jesus talk with one side or both). But man, that better not be the default behavior, or you're just asking for problems. Look around and choose not to act. that's fine, but I see far too many lists with nobody at the helm, and gang fights going on in the parking lots. Unless you want to be known as running biker bars.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 15:38:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA03835; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA03658 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:35:45 -0800 (PST) From: merlin@netlink.co.uk Received: from th-pm00-26.ndirect.co.uk (th-pm00-26.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.26]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA20843 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:42:55 GMT To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Keeping records, logging Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:41:45 GMT Message-ID: <353334e9.23553091@mail.ndirect.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone advise me how to go about logging things for a list? I've logged most things in the past, mainly because of hand-editing small lists. However, I find that as things become more automated, I get more administrivia stuff from whatever software I'm using etc. but I'm not au fait with what's best practice. Ideally, What types of things should be logged... How long should they be retained for? ***arghh, my h/d is being eaten up*** -- Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 19:45:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA27472; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA29255 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from myopic.cfar.umd.edu (myopic.cfar.umd.edu [128.8.132.76]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11260 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from portal.east.saic.com by myopic.cfar.umd.edu (8.8.5/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id SAA07209; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.8.42.107] by portal.east.saic.com via smtpd (for myopic.cfar.umd.edu [128.8.132.76]) with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 23:20:29 UT X-Sender: humour@mail.humournet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:26:17 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Dave Voorhis , murr rhame From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:16 -0500 03/02/98, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >Ditto list adminning. Yes, it's perfectly valid to take a look, slap both >sides silly for being idiots, and choose not to get involved. But the admin >should choose to not get involved situationally ::snip:: That's it, right there. The list admin needs to evaluate each case based on the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different places; I would tend to calibrate mine according to the what is best for the list, in general. We can argue over specifics until we're blue in the face -- but in each case, it comes down to the details of the individual situation. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 21:54:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA20025; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA19912 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05860; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:41:19 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:41:19 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Cyndi Norman cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: <199803020907.BAA15399@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your comments Cyndi. On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Cyndi Norman wrote: > This is a very tricky situation. Whether or not I'd suggest you intervene > would depend on what you mean by "hate mail." That term was used by the injured party, and I passed it along. > If the mail is threatening, harrassing, or illegal in any way, I would give > full cooperation. Ask to see a copy of it first. He did send me a copy, the worst word was "bugger" or something to that effect. It was nasty in tone, but not overly aggressive. This list member did recieve some truly pornographic email from a former list member (in a separate incident). In that case I stepped in, informing the flamer his foul language would not be tolerated, and he was banned from my lists. Seems this guy is a magnet. > If the mail is just plain mean and only happens once, I'd probably say, > work it out between yourselves (not that this is really possible with most > anon mailers). Yes, that is basically what I did. If it continues, you give good advice (giving out the information slowly). I am trying to prevent a situation where I give out an address and it turns out to be the wrong one. Now some innocent person is dragged into this. Who knows, I might be threatened with another law suit! -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:09:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA26137; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA18546 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05605; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:33:59 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:33:59 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list > subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the > list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility for > this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and it's I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list members. Of course on the list I keep everything in order, but I don't have a right to tell someone not to send nasty notes to someone else. I CAN ban them from my list, and I do when necessary. Too many crazies out there for me to defend the world from. I created a safe haven in the list, and it is there I feel responsible, not in the realm of private email, usenet, etc. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:15:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA26102; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21162 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA16382 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06016; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:45:54 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:45:54 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: murr rhame cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, murr rhame wrote: > As a general rule, I am not concerned with private disputes. Most > spin off from a list discussion. If a private flame war were to > escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar > problems, I may offer assistance if asked. Well said, thanks. Since my list brought these people together, I am responsible to some degree. Grade school name calling is just that, however, and no reason to bring in the 'heavy hitters' such as postmasters and list admins. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:24:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA29374; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA29177 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06991; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:22:10 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:22:10 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Vince Sabio cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Dave Voorhis , murr rhame , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Vince Sabio wrote: > the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different > places; I would tend to calibrate mine according to the what is best for the > list, in general. ...And the same list admin will have different threshholds on different days. Catch me on a slow day and I just might jump in on a 'trivial' matter. > We can argue over specifics until we're blue in the face -- but in each case, > it comes down to the details of the individual situation. Amen. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:34:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA28576; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA28434 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06922; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:19:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:19:28 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Dave Voorhis , murr rhame , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, For the most part we agree, but there are a few points to discuss: On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > bouncers. If a bartender ignores a fight in the parking lot because he's > kicked them out of the bar or because "it's not my problem", he better hope > they don't shoot or stab each other, or he'll spend a huge amount of time > explaining things to the police. What is my parking lot? The entire Internet? Where does it end? My domain is the list proper. Anything outside the list I decide on a case by case basis. Often it spirals into a 'he said she said' in an enviromnent where I have no control, and no trail of proof. > make sure it's a case where it doesn't warrant it. Too many admins do it > the bass-ackward way of waiting until someone points out the blood in the > parking lot. I made that mistake once. I reacted too quickly. Looking back, I also reacted too harshly. Many situations sneak up quietly and are easy to miss. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:40:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA10155; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA10107 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y9jh6-000ieIC; Mon, 2 Mar 98 20:52 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > That's it, right there. The list admin needs to evaluate each case based on > the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different I don't know how it is for other women, but when I've been harrassed or flamed in private mail, it's worse for me than when it's done in public. Maybe it makes no real sense but somehow it's more frightening, like being harrassed in a dark alley when you're all alone. When it happens on a list, other people will sometimes help you. Even so, twice I've been chased off lists because someone would harrass me and there was no help. My work in electronic democracy evokes some strange reactions. If cyberspace hadn't been so important to me for the potential I see in it, I'd have given it up for the meanness in it. I have more experience now and could deal with it better if it ever happened again. But when you evaluate a case, remember that some gentle people will quit rather than complain and a little help is really needed. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:46:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA24843; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA24809 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06589; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:02 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: murr rhame , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Key words are "if asked". In general, if I'm asked to help, it's no > longer minor. Perhaps your subscribers are more thick skinned than some of mine? I am sometimes CC'd on rather trivial matters, because the injured party likes to bring me in to give the other guy a lashing. > > IMHO, > > a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. > > Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. I took Murr to have that meaning as well, but I don't think he is wrong. > If a private discussion > GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin is > responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and the > list's reputation follows that, too). I try to look at each case individually. Dejanews can tell you a lot about someone's online presence. I admit that if someone has a history of being a jerk I am faster to react. List reputation is a whole different matter. I take pride in the lists I run, so of course try to do everything possible to make sure the word out on the net is positive. Unfortunately, if that includes hand holding every insulted list member my efforts will fail. My lists see 200-400 messages a day in total. Often when a problem crops up I have to search the archives and figure out exactly what happened. Factor in the private emails, and drawing a just conclusion is often a time consuming affair. > If users get harrassed or abused > off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does that say > about the list? More to the point, what does it say about that person? He is responsible for his actions, not me. Of course I do have some obligation, but I don't feel it as strongly as you. I help out when time permits and the situation warrants it. Often I gather contact information (whois, postmaster@, etc.) and suggest they contact the admins on the other side. I realize that is passing the problem along, but at least then the admin will be dealing with one of his own users. > You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. True Chuq, very true. I also can't drop everything each time Joe Blow in Brazil calls Joe Shmoe in Albany a 'red nosed pug.' I expect the subscribers to do everything they can to work it out, then contact me when it gets out of hand. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 00:23:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA16954; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA16891 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA09015; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:31:37 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:31:37 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well Chuq in a perfect world I would have time for everything. The net is growing by leaps and bounds, with more novices than ever before. I do spend a lot of time on my lists, but they are not my only concern. You are a paid list professional. I am one guy with a home brewed Linux box and an ISDN line, and other time demanding business concerns. Does this mean I can't host excellent lists? I say not. Does it mean I won't have time to pursue every last cat fight that spawns from my lists? Yes it does. On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list > > members. > > Then I'd argue you don't have time to run the lists properly. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 00:56:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06923; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA06850 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17056 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:02:06 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:47:35 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:40 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > Your standards are very high. I hope you don't fall. If I do, it won't be for lack of trying. My users deserve no less, Mitch. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 01:54:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA02483; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA28126 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08916 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:18:52 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:14:30 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:31 PM -0800 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > Well Chuq in a perfect world I would have time for everything. In a less than perfect world, we don't take on responsibilities we can't fulfill. > You are a paid list professional. At work, yes. At home, no. And I run a large number of lists in both places. I put my money where my mouth is, Mitch. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 01:57:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA03527; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA03228 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA10431; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:40:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:40:13 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > In a less than perfect world, we don't take on responsibilities we > can't fulfill. Oh come on Chuq. Are you saying I am not a responsible list owner because I don't baby sit as much as you do? > > You are a paid list professional. > > At work, yes. At home, no. And I run a large number of lists in both > places. I put my money where my mouth is, Mitch. Hmm. Well I am not sure where my money is. I do know that many people enjoy and benefit from my lists. I do know that people write to me thanking me for my efforts. I do know that I am glad to be giving something back to the Internet community. Your standards are very high. I hope you don't fall. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 05:26:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA10558; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA10385 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA05229 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA15379 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I don't know how it is for other women, but when I've been harrassed > or flamed in private mail, it's worse for me than when it's done in > public... Sexual harassment is a case where I would offer assistance. I have not been asked for help by any woman who has been harassed. > Even so, twice I've been chased off lists because someone would > harrass me and there was no help... If you asked the list admin for help and none was offered, the admin was wrong. Within fairly broad limits, any uncivil action by a list member which drives another subscriber away should be of concern to the listowner. Ignoring bullies on or around a mailing list is not a sane option. BTW: Mail from GreatCircle is lagging again. I'm seeing a lot of responses to emails I haven't received yet. Also, I sent a post 13hrs ago which has not echoed back from the list yet... It will probably pop up in a few days after this thread has died down. ;-) - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 08:24:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA26957; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA26836 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16169; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:55 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:55 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well Chuq, I think this thread has gone astray. I respect your integrity, and subscribed to Colorsync-Users to get a taste for your style of administration (I assume you are the admin on that list). I just bought a scanner, so the timing is perfect. On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > My users deserve no less, Mitch. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 08:54:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA18099; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA17875 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (hillman@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with SMTP id KAA27204; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:22 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Hillman To: Mitchell Leben cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Automobili: 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L Organization: Sprint Paranet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote: > You are a paid list professional. I am one guy with a home brewed Linux > box and an ISDN line, and other time demanding business concerns. Does > this mean I can't host excellent lists? I say not. Does it mean I won't > have time to pursue every last cat fight that spawns from my lists? Yes it > does. And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? You can't stop one party from mailing the other. You can't change the opinions of the parties involved ( although you can try ). All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. -- D a v i d H i l l m a n hillman@enteract.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 09:54:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA06734; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA06685 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21153; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:23 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:23 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Dave Hillman cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Hillman wrote: > And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to > resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? You > can't stop one party from mailing the other. You can't change the > opinions of the parties involved ( although you can try ). Often they just need someone to share their pain, and agree the other guy is a jerk. I am more likey to talk to the person on the receiving end, because you are right, what can I tell the other person? Play nice or else? > All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. I usually have a round of emails with the (injured) person. Once they see that I agree with them, their urgency diminishes. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:04:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA16322; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA10786 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17300 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:15:29 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:26 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Dave Hillman From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:53 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: >Play nice or >else? That's a great start, yes. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:10:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06216; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA06150 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14628 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:11 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:05:14 -0800 To: Dave Hillman , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Mitchell Leben , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any >> of my other users down the road. > > Obviously, but this will have absolutely no effect on the current >dispute the users are having, via private mail. Actually, I find this isn't not true. First, getting shaken by the neck and reminded that they ARE responsible for what they say does wonders to many of these folks. And in many of the cases, I can get them yelling at me instead of the poor other person, and at least we get the nastiness sent in a direction that's able to deal with it. And yes, I *do* consciously try to get the fight moved in my direction in some cases. >And even that is useless, since a motivated >trouble-maker can get a new address from anywhere, free. And how often does that happen? do we not try anything because the worst case is we might fail? That seems to be the attitude. > My point is there may be many things you can do, but you do not have >any 'power' in this situation. You may be able to ally yourself with >someone in power, say his/her administrator, but that is different. And your point seems to be because those powers have limitations, you might as well not bother. Me, I'll do everything I can, realizing I might not succeed. But funny, in most cases, I do. And in cases where maybe I fall a bit short, I make things less bad. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:24:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA05798; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA28247 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (hillman@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with SMTP id NAA20336; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:19:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:19:54 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Hillman To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Mitchell Leben , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Automobili: 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L Organization: Sprint Paranet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any > of my other users down the road. Obviously, but this will have absolutely no effect on the current dispute the users are having, via private mail. Also, you have to determine who is the 'idiot'. And even that is useless, since a motivated trouble-maker can get a new address from anywhere, free. > And I can go raise a stink with HIS admins > if he won't back off and go away. And you'll be amazed at how much more of > a reaction you get from a postmaster when the list owner comes complaining > than when it's two users. Exactly as I said, you can go to his or her administrators. > Or I can moderate the situations. Or I can offer advice. Or... Or.. Or... > There are lots of things within my power and purview. My point is there may be many things you can do, but you do not have any 'power' in this situation. You may be able to ally yourself with someone in power, say his/her administrator, but that is different. > I can, most importantly, act as a third party to help get this thing > SOLVED. I don't care about the details how -- those differ from case to > case. But the important thing is to work to get the fight stopped before > someone gets seriously hurt, not stand by and go "well, it's on the > sidewalk, not on my property, so technically, I'm not involved". Certainly if you can talk sense into the participants, that would be a good thing. My point is that two people who cannot resolve a dispute, or agree to disagree via private mail are extremely unlikely to be swayed by impartial moderation. As with your fist-fight example, all you can do is hope to talk down the conflict, or call the police ( administrators ). You are not a parent, you cannot send the respective parties to their rooms, and you shouldn't try. 'Play nice or else' is fine, but you better have an else. -- D a v i d H i l l m a n hillman@enteract.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:33:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA05278; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA05167 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31682 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:28 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:27:53 -0800 To: Dave Hillman , Mitchell Leben From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:32 AM -0800 3/3/98, Dave Hillman wrote: > And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to >resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any of my other users down the road.And I can go raise a stink with HIS admins if he won't back off and go away. And you'll be amazed at how much more of a reaction you get from a postmaster when the list owner comes complaining than when it's two users. Or I can moderate the situations. Or I can offer advice. Or... Or.. Or... There are lots of things within my power and purview. > All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. I can, most importantly, act as a third party to help get this thing SOLVED. I don't care about the details how -- those differ from case to case. But the important thing is to work to get the fight stopped before someone gets seriously hurt, not stand by and go "well, it's on the sidewalk, not on my property, so technically, I'm not involved". -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:09:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA01408; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA01259 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0yA1hp-000iewC; Tue, 3 Mar 98 16:06 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your suggestion, Ronald. In fact, it was by threatening to filter someone that made him stop. In the end, he became somewhat of an ally and made good suggestions for eVote which I have implemented. Finally he got angry at me for not implementing the bad suggestions and left my lists. Whew. And thank you Ray: > I also understand your reaction. However, why can't you just "ignore" such > harrassment. I mean, the person doesn't know you. They don't know where Yes. I'm better at it now. For a newcomer, the line between cyberspace and the physical space isn't so clear. I would become afraid of my mailbox, which is in my computer, which is in my bedroom. I was afraid to come home a few times. I have so little unpleasantness in my little life, I wasn't geared for it to appear here. But actually, the other list I left was a list of people I do know. We know each other because we attend the same music camp in the summers. It's a long story, this one. But I won't be on the same list with this one man. He hates me so much, not just for electronic democracy but also because I have stood against him and for children's rights at camp. He takes every opportunity to degrade me and my software without any regard for truth, or even relevence to the conversation. Because of the politics of the group, i.e., he is powerful, I host the lists for them but I'm not a member. They just run amuk and I don't care. > you live. They don't know what you look like. They don't have your phone > number. Just delete their messages and ignore them. Why do you let them > bother you? It hasn't happened in a long time from strangers. Maybe there's enough electronic democracy happening that people don't attack me? Also, by now, I have people who will join a list for me and defend me if I ask. Thanks for listening to my tales. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:24:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA25854; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA25814 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (sendmail@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with ESMTP id OAA20390; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by flatland.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id OAA28526; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:55 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: Mitchell Leben cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote: In approximately a forty-eight hour period I received some fourteen different messages from this Leben, who no doubt loves to read his own messages and finds it necessary to foist his private exchanges on the entire list. Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular member who is acting out? Ted Smith Denver From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:24:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA17312; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16975 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA03623; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06271; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:19 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: merlin@netlink.co.uk Subject: Re: Keeping records, logging In-Reply-To: <353334e9.23553091@mail.ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 merlin@netlink.co.uk wrote: > Could someone advise me how to go about logging things for a list? > I've logged most things in the past, mainly because of hand-editing > small lists. However, I find that as things become more automated, > I get more administrivia stuff from whatever software I'm using etc. > but I'm not au fait with what's best practice. > > Ideally, What types of things should be logged... How long should > they be retained for? ***arghh, my h/d is being eaten up*** On most of my lists, the listproc is set up to automatically archive all distributed posts. I keep a backup copy of the subscriber list, the welcome file and the information file. Random bounces are discarded as they come in. Short term, I save a few bounces which may require special attention. I save selected posts and private emails on list policy issues along with some posts from potential trouble makers in special folders. Most of my clerical type email is only kept in my sent-mail folder. My sent-mail folders are kept in one month blocks and are discarded after two months. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 17:11:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA15463; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hilda.sci.usq.edu.au (hilda.sci.usq.edu.au [139.86.144.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id RAA15367 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14615 invoked by uid 205); 4 Mar 1998 01:07:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19980304010749.14614.qmail@hilda.sci.usq.edu.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 X-Face: VBG60|k'4FzQAk.lEL//A=jDc@.*^5c^^(#755qSb~E~lhP7%JOW!_)Oauu?Y(|)0Xn|UBK Wb$c5EvA>x<^g&TNFNLS9}\FDFw{F,b8%u%>Xb_2}4b}p X-PGP: RSA/---/--- 1024/49D16ABD 1997/11/04 X-PGP: RSA/---/--- 7D 43 B4 CC 96 8B 51 14 B8 28 ED 99 B5 6F 21 4B X-PGP: ---/DSS/--- 1024/6501F2F1 1997-11-04 X-PGP: ---/DSS/--- 7D65 5882 B458 4B1B E2CA F62E 99CE 9009 6501 F2F1 X-PGP: ---/---/D-H 2048/E81EAB5A 1997-11-04 X-PGP: ---/---/D-H 2161 455C 0E5A D467 D538 FBEF BB2F 3B73 E81E AB5A Organization: The University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba X-Disclaimer: views expressed do not even purport to represent the University X-URI: http://www.sci.usq.edu.au/staff/vance/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: unrequested subscription In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:05:14 -0800. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:07:49 +1000 From: Christopher JS Vance Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number of mailing lists at [dispatch.]cnet.com. I note that their whois entry includes no personal names, and wonder if they have a reputation as a spamhaus. (i.e., are they the scum who did it, or is it somebody else who is out to get me?) I don't know where my address was harvested from. -- Christopher From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 20:17:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA04472; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA04272 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id UAA07068 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:41:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803040241.UAA07068@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: unrequested subscription Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:41:29 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3/3/98 7:07 PM, Christopher JS Vance wrote... >Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number >of mailing lists at [dispatch.]cnet.com. I note that their whois >entry includes no personal names, and wonder if they have a >reputation as a spamhaus. (i.e., are they the scum who did it, or is >it somebody else who is out to get me?) Um, well, C|Net is a highly-placed Internet media outfit. I doubt they go around trying to spam people. It's just that their lists don't require confirmation, and someone else was out to get you and used their lists. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 20:24:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08518; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08392 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (sendmail@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with ESMTP id UAA13514; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by flatland.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id UAA20152; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:16 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: Dave Voorhis cc: Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Voorhis wrote: > At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: > > > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there > >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular > >member who is acting out? > > Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an > entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in > private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. Ted Smith Denver From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:24:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08514; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08413 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20334 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:56 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:45 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:51 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > and subscribed to Colorsync-Users to get a taste for your style of > administration (I assume you are the admin on that list). My machine, but each product list is run by someone out of the product group, so I get called in only if they run into things they don't feel they can handle, at least on the content end. I keep the technical stuff running smoothly and deal with system level issues. Seems to work well. Given how many lists there are these days, and where we hope to be in six months, there's no way any one person can micromanage everything. More of my job these days is on building systems for others to use, and trying to deal with futures issues. I'm working on stuff now that people will want later, so a big part of my job is getting stuff implemented before people know they need it, and looking at where all of these environments are going. I'm not just running lists, but trying to define what lists will be down the road (or more correctly, communications infrastructures. Lists are just a part, and not necessarily the key piece, but one of a number of useful tools). -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:39:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA10032; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09984 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11561 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17760 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:02 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01885 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:01 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803040543.XAA01885@celery.tssi.com> Subject: When to invoke sanctions (was: privacy thread) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:00 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in > forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of > messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on > a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. I don't think 14 messages in 48 hours is necessarily an offense that warrants the 'death penalty' on a list, even this one. I think all of us have seen users get carried away and overpost, but whether this is by the force of their convictions or the exhiliration of seeing their prose in print isn't particularly relevant. I cannot honestly remember sufficient posts from one user to reach my own pain threshhold for this list, but I will also admit to having not read or at best briefly scanned quite a few posts in the thread in question. (And it wouldn't surprise me if Chuq has posted about that many times over the same time period, though I hasten to add I am NOT suggesting Chuq has been overposting, it's that he's taking one side of a rather spirited discussion, something this list has happen every now and then, alternating with periods of inactivity.) In any event, assuming some overly busy poster flooded my list, I would take one or more of the following actions long before I'd boot the poster off: write the individual and suggest he/she cool it, post a general warning to the entire list and suggest that EVERYBODY cool it, or put the user in read-only status for a while. If the posts have at least SOME marginal relevance, I'm much more inclined to be tolerant in my choice of sanctions, my flash point for totally irrelevant postefs (and my choice of sanctions) is a whole lot different. And in the case of a spammer who sneaks through my safeguards, I just quietly delete the miscreant and take whatever steps I can to make sure THAT particular person/domain never darkens my door again. I will, on occasion, offer an apology to my subscribers for the intrusion.) To me, the list manager HAS to be the voice of reason and calming influence on a list, not the chief hothead. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:39:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08445; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08395 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20338 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:58 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:09 -0800 To: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:06 PM -0800 3/3/98, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Yes. I'm better at it now. For a newcomer, the line between > cyberspace and the physical space isn't so clear. I would become > afraid of my mailbox, which is in my computer, which is in my bedroom. > I was afraid to come home a few times. I have so little > unpleasantness in my little life, I wasn't geared for it to appear > here. And for people wondering why I tend to take such a hard line about this cr?p, here's why. I have a good friend who was so abused that he took himself off the internet. I won't have that happen on *my* shift, not if I can help it. I happen to like looking at myself in the mirror, and I like thinking that I've done everything I can to help those who aren't able to take care of themselves, especially if I'm responsible for the situation that got them into the trouble in the first place. I've seen too many lists ruined by the one or two bullies and a list admin who, in the name of "free speech" or simple absenteeism or whatever, let those couple of people drive everyone else away through harrassment, abuse or simple boorish nastiness. I know my admin style bothers some folks, but I do reader surveys, and most of my users appreciate it. I don't believe that freedom of speech belongs only to the loudest and most aggressive, and *someone's* gotta stand up for the people on the list that get intimidated by the loud and noisy's -- and if that's not the list admin, who? I don't accept the doctrine of the tyranny of the few: that the people willing to bully or scream their way through every discussion should decide what can be said and who says it, here's a hint: if you allow the @ssh*les to drive all the good people away from the list, all you have left are the @ssh*les. And I find they aren't a lot of fun to talk to. they're not who I run lists for. > Maybe there's > enough electronic democracy happening that people don't attack me? You also come across as being able to take pretty good care of yourself, Marilyn. And most of these people are, at bottom, hopelessly coward cravens. And they go pick on people they know they can cower. This is one reason why I consciously play up my bad-cop hard-ass List Mom persona. Not because I particularly like it, and especially not because I *am* it, but because I'm playing Alpha Male mind games on the dweebs. If I can keep them from starting their cr@p in the first place by having them realize I'll step on their face, then I don't actually have to do much stepping. And yes, it rubs some people the wrong way, but it works (for me). As long as I don't start taking myself too seriously. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 00:33:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06914; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id AAA06899 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from decipher.com (rothko.decipher.com [209.49.157.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA06323 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.49.157.141] (dalem.decipher.com [209.49.157.141]) by decipher.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12963 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dale@rothko.decipher.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:47 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dale Maurice Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Help. I'm kinda clueless on this one, after looking at the problem for a week I just can't figure it out. Basically my list users are all getting messages twice. This began to occur after I moved the lists to a different machine within the same domain space. I am confused.. any clues where to look? thx, dale From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 02:50:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA04742; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA04688 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17567 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1998 10:50:50 -0000 Received: from flyingfish.armchair.mb.ca (HELO flyingfish) (198.163.115.26) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 4 Mar 1998 10:50:50 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980304044921.0072984c@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:49:21 -0600 To: Theodore M Smith From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users Cc: Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:04 PM 03/03/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Voorhis wrote: > >> At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: >> >> > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there >> >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular >> >member who is acting out? >> >> Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an >> entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in >> private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? > > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in >forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of >messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on >a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. Color me dense, but I'm still not getting it. Is your complaint about fourteen messages posted by Mitchell Leben to List-Managers? Your comment, "Can the list owner do something about Leben...[?]" implies this. Or was that a typo, and you meant to say, "Can the list owner do something about it, Leben?" in reference to an issue you were discussing with Mr. Leben? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 14:52:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA15213; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA11561 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21793 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11974; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:37:02 -0600 Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20423; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:35:51 -0600 From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199803041535.JAA20423@bif.cd.com> Subject: When to invoke sanctions (was: privacy thread) (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:35:51 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In any event, assuming some overly busy poster flooded my list, I would > take one or more of the following actions long before I'd boot the poster > off: write the individual and suggest he/she cool it, post a general warning I own a list with a number of users who are unable to sort their email (because they use Juno or AOL, or because they don't want to spend the five minutes it takes to configure this feature in whatever MUA they use). They also might have restrictive quotas or just have a low tolerance for "long" download times on their email. They might check their email once every couple of days or so. I also have users who are connected directly to the net and have biff notification when mail comes in from the list. I do need to remind these users on occasion to consolidate posts or even to abstain if it's not all that important. The threshold is on my list is maybe 6 posts per day, but that's because of the nature of the subscribers -- many of whom are Juno or AOL users. One would hope that members of a list-managers list would be able to adequately manage their email so that 14, 50, or even a hundred or more messages per day aren't overly burdensome. (I typically receive 150+ emails per day. procmail is able to handle 80% of that. I spend maybe an hour and a half per day reading and responding to email. Isn't software beautiful? :-) ) The "cool it" reminders are always very friendly. Advocating banishment for an overly active poster seems somewhat harsh. Richard Masoner From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 16:20:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA04185; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA04177 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA05868; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:16:10 -0600 (CST) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Here's a completely useless bounce Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:16:09 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 57 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This is probably the most completely useless bounce I have ever seen. Note that they don't provide a proper To: header, so my site shows up even though the bounce was generated elsewhere. Note the complete lack of any failure information; no reason, no address, nothing. Note the brokenness in their Received: header (no domain name, ESMTP id of 0, confusion between the envelope recipient and the envelope sender). "MailMax 2.000"? Whoever makes this wonderful garbage? I tracked this bounce back to netopia.net and promptly removed all subscribers from there. Let's see if postmaster@netopia.net responds to my complaint. - J< --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:38:54 -0600 (CST) From: MAIL-DAEMON@hpc.uh.edu Message-Id: <199803042338.RAA05162@sina.hpc.uh.edu> Subject: (None) -- 8< -- 8< -- [ Original Message As Follows ] -- >8 -- >8 -- Received: from gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (gizmo.hpc.uh.edu[129.7.102.31])by MAINSERVER(MailMax 2.000) with ESMTP id 0 for owner-type-o@hpc.uh.edu; Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:26:51 -0500 EST Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (sina.hpc.uh.edu [129.7.3.5]) by gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAE09454; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:09:02 -0600 Received: by sina.hpc.uh.edu (TLB v0.09a (1.20 tibbs 1996/10/09 22:03:07)); Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:33:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from servidor.unam.mx (redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx [132.248.104.4]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05083 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from oubliete@localhost) by servidor.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08192; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:53 -0600 (CST) From: [censored by JLT] To: Type-o Subject: [censored by JLT] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-type-o@hpc.uh.edu Precedence: list Reply-To: type-o@hpc.uh.edu X-Majordomo: 1.94.jlt7 [message censored by JLT] -- Don't look stupid! Check the archives: To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe type-o" in the body of a message to majordomo@hpc.uh.edu. Report all problems to type-o-owner@hpc.uh.edu. -- 8< -- 8< -- [ Original Message End ] -- >8 -- >8 -- --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1-- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 21:34:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09064; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08753 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00860; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:10:04 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:10:04 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben Reply-To: Mitchell Leben To: Theodore M Smith cc: Dave Voorhis , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ted you leave me scratching my head, and it isn't because of that white stuff. What is your issue with my posts? > > Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an > > entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in > > private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? Thanks Dave. > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in > forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of > messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on > a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. You've got to be kidding, right? "Not an exchange of messages?" Huh? There is one in every crowd. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 5 06:20:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA12181; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA05370 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk (ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk [128.98.1.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA11315 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27109 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:18 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2) by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 5 Mar 1998 13:06:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 9388 invoked by alias); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 7523 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7) by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 To: Jason L Tibbitts III cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Here's a completely useless bounce Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DERA Malvern, UK References: In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:17 +0000 Message-ID: <18949.889103177@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Jason L Tibbitts III writes: > "MailMax 2.000"? Whoever makes this wonderful garbage? It's probably: http://www.smartmax.com/mailmax.html # Announcing MailMAX 2.0, our new 32 bit multi-threaded internet eMail # server for Windows NT and Windows98. cheers, Chris -- Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 6 04:05:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA11442; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tbinet.org (i75.driveninc.com [207.142.98.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA10994 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME [12.64.1.251] by tbinet.org (SMTPD32-4.03) id A24C1BFA024A; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:47:24 EST Message-ID: <34FFE2BE.5EF6@Qmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 03:49:18 -0800 From: Thompson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions [Re-posted] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------56DA600B4656" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------56DA600B4656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all, I posted this four days ago, have not seen it on the list. Can anyone tell me what I did wrong in posting it the first time, or whether "glitches happen?" Thanks! --------------56DA600B4656 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34FC323D.6C98@Qmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:39:25 -0800 From: thom@Qmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions . =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Thanks for your responses about the subscription attack on the (very) democratic discussion list I maintain, which subscriber- group is about to make some important decisions in a group discussion and vote. I discovered who is behind the subscription attack that jumped subs from 450 to 480 in 15 days. (Usually only 15% of list members vote, so 30 votes could swing it.) He admitted he is behind the subscribes, but insists each of those subs represents a legitimate person in his local face-to-face "Twelve-Step" group who needs the fellowship of this list. He declined to unsubscribe them in exchange for my not needing to expose this problem in the group's leadership committee or on the list as a whole. If I can get the support of our leadership committee, I am inclined to unsubscribe the 28 addresses on the basis of the sheer obviousness of the silly "names," duplicates, fact that two are based on his own initials, etc. I also wish to report the facts of this subscription attack, to the four free email providers he has used, asking that they terminate these accounts based on my complaint that the accounts have been used in a subscription attack on this list, which constitutes abuse. A brief sample of the subs follows this message, for any who missed them on my last inquiry. Two questions for you. 1. Does anyone see something unethical about [a] unsubscribing the 28 addresses? [b] reporting the problem to the four email providers with a request that they terminate those accounts? 2. Is there something else I could/should do? I have no interest in punishing this person; only in taking the attack seriously (but not over-seriously), and prompting him to think twice before doing it again. Thanks again, very much. Sincerely, Tommi Thompson, elected List Maintainer mailto:thom@tbinet.org =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= xit xit 10 Feb 98 06:47 "xit xxx" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "pat darnell" 10 Feb 98 06:53 "pat block" 10 Feb 98 06:55 "why me" digest 16 feb 98 "why me" 23 feb 98 07:05:16 (initiated 20 feb 16:45) "chess master" 16 feb 98 "chess master" 23 feb 98 7:07 (initiated 20 feb 16:47) "sweet grass" 20 feb 98 "super woman" 23 feb 98 07:03 (initiated 20 feb16:42) --------------56DA600B4656-- From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 6 12:19:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA24341; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA23901 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18146 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA20700 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:27 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17734 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:23 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803062007.OAA17734@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: newbie To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:23 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hi, all, I posted this four days ago, have not seen it on > the list. Can anyone tell me what I did wrong in posting it > the first time, or whether "glitches happen?" Thanks! E-mail is not a guaranteed delivery medium, it could have gone south en route, or gotten trapped in one of the filters at greatcircle. (Our list manager does what he can to rescue these posts from the filters, but he's only able to leap small buildings with a single bound and gave up stopping bullets with his teeth about two sets of teeth ago.) > 1. Does anyone see something unethical about > [a] unsubscribing the 28 addresses? > [b] reporting the problem to the four email providers with a > request that they terminate those accounts? Hey, it's YOUR list, do whatever you feel you need to do to keep order. Depending on who the providers are, they might not do diddly squat about the problem, assuming they even believe you. Welcome to the net. :-/ I tell people who complain about my list management style to set up their own list if they don't like mine. My list keeps growing. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 15:54:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA09174; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA08882 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12288 invoked by uid 500); 7 Mar 1998 23:27:35 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? References: From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:09 -0800" Date: 07 Mar 1998 15:27:35 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > This is one reason why I consciously play up my bad-cop hard-ass List > Mom persona. Not because I particularly like it, and especially not > because I *am* it, but because I'm playing Alpha Male mind games on the > dweebs. If I can keep them from starting their cr@p in the first place > by having them realize I'll step on their face, then I don't actually > have to do much stepping. And yes, it rubs some people the wrong way, > but it works (for me). As long as I don't start taking myself too > seriously. Amen. I'll back up every word of this; it works. I do the same sort of thing on the occasional Usenet newsgroup, particularly ones I moderate, and just the knowledge that there's someone out there who isn't going to be bullied puts an end to a great deal of it. One has to be careful about getting a reputation as more harsh than one actually is, and like Chuq says it's vital that you don't take yourself too seriously while doing it, but when done properly it actually scares off most of the troublemakers before they start causing trouble. And that's the best kind of action one can take. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 21:36:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA01717; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA01701 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA24088 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA29865; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14259; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:07 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: unrequested subscription In-Reply-To: <19980304010749.14614.qmail@hilda.sci.usq.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Christopher JS Vance wrote: > Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number > of mailing lists... I receive forged subscription requests on a regular basis. All of the lists at my site require confirmation before the subscribe request is accepted. Unfortunately, there are still many mailing lists which will accept forged subscriptions automatically, without confirmation. To the extent that the server manager has not taken steps to prevent forged subscriptions, they are partly responsible for your problems. I doubt the list admins are spammers or that they are the primary source of your troubles. Pranksters often choose victims at random or you may have ticked someone off. If you can contact the server manager and or the listowners, they may be able to track down the culprit. Unfortunately, some sites do not keep logs of subscription request headers. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 21:50:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA01681; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA01671 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from terminator2.xtra.co.nz (terminator2.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA18858 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from polemic (p49-m16-wn4.dialup.xtra.co.nz [202.27.178.241]) by terminator2.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA28254 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:20:33 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> From: "Rex Widerstrom" Organization: Polemic Political Consultants To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:20:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Filtering spam sent via smtp Reply-to: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net In-reply-to: <199803031247.EAA01098@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. They advised members to use their ISP's server to send mail -- they'll still be able to receive mail sent to their Geocities address. Apparently, though, many members can't do this - again because of ISP's worries about spam. Because (a) I think Geocities provide a worthy service and would like to help them out and (b) on principle, because spammers shouldn't be able to screw it up for the rest of us and (c) because practically, if everyone follows the lead of Geocities and starts shutting down their smtp servers the web will grind to a halt; I thought I'd ask this list if they can suggest any means, other than a shut down, by which Geocities could sort this out. I'll pass on any and all suggestions. My thanks in advance. Rex Widerstrom From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 8 02:34:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA15904; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net ([166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15828 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA13875; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA17090; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:21 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: Rex Widerstrom cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp In-Reply-To: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Rex Widerstrom wrote: > Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have > some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their > smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. I dont' run sendmail so I don't know the details of this procedure. On our mail system, the postmaster setup a list of trusted hosts, domains and IP addresses which we will relay. All other relays are filtered by default. This relay "guest list" only effects relay mail. We have other filter specs for in bound spam sent to our system rather than through our system via relay. I suspect that you can find details either on the the www.sendmail.org web page or in the O'Reilly sendmail book. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 8 19:35:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA03472; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgate.ricochet.net (rgate.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA01161 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from knab.nmis.net (mg142-099.ricochet.net [204.179.142.99]) by rgate.ricochet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18437; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:06:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803090306.VAA18437@rgate.ricochet.net> From: "Terry Knab" Organization: The Home Office To: murr@vnet.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:00:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp References: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> In-reply-to: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:21 -0500 (EST) > From: murr rhame > Reply-to: murr rhame > To: Rex Widerstrom > Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Rex Widerstrom wrote: > > > Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have > > some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their > > smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. > > I dont' run sendmail so I don't know the details of this procedure. > On our mail system, the postmaster setup a list of trusted hosts, > domains and IP addresses which we will relay. All other relays are > filtered by default. This relay "guest list" only effects relay mail. > We have other filter specs for in bound spam sent to our system rather > than through our system via relay. I suspect that you can find > details either on the the www.sendmail.org web page or in the O'Reilly > sendmail book. > I'll be glad to help anyone who needs relay-protection help. Contact me privately and I'll be glad to assist. Terry Knab News Administrator Nyx.Net, Free Internet Access From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 12:50:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28028; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA12031 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17006 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14066 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:10:37 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:06:45 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:33 PM -0800 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list > members. Then I'd argue you don't have time to run the lists properly. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 12:58:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28419; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA29936 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8368 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1998 22:07:32 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 3 Mar 1998 22:07:32 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:04:10 -0600 To: Theodore M Smith , Mitchell Leben From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular >member who is acting out? Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 13:20:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA08630; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA08530 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13800 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1998 21:18:22 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 9 Mar 1998 21:18:22 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980309151434.00c99970@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 15:14:34 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Administrivia filters and List-Managers Cc: owner-list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm assuming the week-old messages appearing now are a result of messages being caught by the administrivia filters. Given that we're all list managers who SHOULD capable of aiming unzubzcribe requests to the right place, and given that we're inevitably going to write things that trigger the filters -- could we have the administrivia filters turned off, please? From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 14:05:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA15688; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA15671 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.25.58.237] (ppp1237.gotnet.net [208.25.58.237]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13895 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:04:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199803092204.RAA13895@iwebb.com> Subject: New List Member... Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 14:05:55 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I am new to this List. I joined because I would like to learn how to create and manage a Listserv. I have just recently started learning so I don't know all the terminology yet and I'm still learning the differeces of the different Listservs. Any help or information would be greatly apprciated! Thank you, Jenifer BTW - Where do I get the software so I can begin and could some of you e-mail privately to suggest what software is best or Mac. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please note and change my E-mail address: Old E-mail address - PJfam5@gotnet.net Thank you ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 15:05:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA23257; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA23213 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15205 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1998 22:57:23 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 9 Mar 1998 22:57:23 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980309165333.00c80570@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:53:33 -0600 To: Jeff Breidenbach , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: feedback on list archive service In-Reply-To: <199803050418.XAA05306@jab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Jeff Breidenbach wrote: >I'd like to get feedback on a mailing list archiving service I just >pieced together. It's at http://archive.jab.org. I'm looking for >comments, criticism, general thoughts, people to try it out, etc. >Is this useful to anyone, or old hat? All feedback is appreciated. I'm sorry to say I'd be inclined to call it old hat. WWWW.Reference.com does all that, plus searching across multiple mailing lists and USENET newsgroups. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 15:12:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA18130; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA13268 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id BAA15399; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:07:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:07:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020907.BAA15399@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: mitch@leben.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from Mitchell Leben on Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a very tricky situation. Whether or not I'd suggest you intervene would depend on what you mean by "hate mail." If the mail is threatening, harrassing, or illegal in any way, I would give full cooperation. Ask to see a copy of it first. If the mail is just plain mean and only happens once, I'd probably say, work it out between yourselves (not that this is really possible with most anon mailers). If the mail is just plain mean and happens many times, I'd put it in the category of harressment and treat with full cooperation. The fact that it is anon makes it more harressing, IMHO. An inbetween form of cooperation is to simply say "yes" to the question of do you have a user with the following domain. That way the reciever can at least complain to the proper postmaster. If the postmaster then asks you directly for the username, give it. If you think the anon mail is sigificant enough to do something about but don't feel comfortable giving your subscriber info to the reciever, you can contact the postmaster directly. Send them a copy of the mail(s) in question and ask them to look into it. Do be sure in any case that you look up the domain to get the upstream provider. If it's a virtual domain, sending to postmaster@domain will just get the sender of the anon mail (unless of course that's what you want). Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:01:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19729; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA24871 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:03:19 -0800 (PST) From: thom@Qmail.com Received: from tbinet.org (i75.driveninc.com [207.142.98.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28774 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME [12.64.1.202] by tbinet.org (SMTPD32-4.03) id A192E303B0; Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:36:34 EST Message-ID: <34FC323D.6C98@Qmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:39:25 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk . Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions . =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Thanks for your responses about the subscription attack on the (very) democratic discussion list I maintain, which subscriber- group is about to make some important decisions in a group discussion and vote. I discovered who is behind the subscription attack that jumped subs from 450 to 480 in 15 days. (Usually only 15% of list members vote, so 30 votes could swing it.) He admitted he is behind the subscribes, but insists each of those subs represents a legitimate person in his local face-to-face "Twelve-Step" group who needs the fellowship of this list. He declined to unsubscribe them in exchange for my not needing to expose this problem in the group's leadership committee or on the list as a whole. If I can get the support of our leadership committee, I am inclined to unsubscribe the 28 addresses on the basis of the sheer obviousness of the silly "names," duplicates, fact that two are based on his own initials, etc. I also wish to report the facts of this subscription attack, to the four free email providers he has used, asking that they terminate these accounts based on my complaint that the accounts have been used in a subscription attack on this list, which constitutes abuse. A brief sample of the subs follows this message, for any who missed them on my last inquiry. Two questions for you. 1. Does anyone see something unethical about [a] unsubscribing the 28 addresses? [b] reporting the problem to the four email providers with a request that they terminate those accounts? 2. Is there something else I could/should do? I have no interest in punishing this person; only in taking the attack seriously (but not over-seriously), and prompting him to think twice before doing it again. Thanks again, very much. Sincerely, Tommi Thompson, elected List Maintainer mailto:thom@tbinet.org =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= xit xit 10 Feb 98 06:47 "xit xxx" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "pat darnell" 10 Feb 98 06:53 "pat block" 10 Feb 98 06:55 "why me" digest 16 feb 98 "why me" 23 feb 98 07:05:16 (initiated 20 feb 16:45) "chess master" 16 feb 98 "chess master" 23 feb 98 7:07 (initiated 20 feb 16:47) "sweet grass" 20 feb 98 "super woman" 23 feb 98 07:03 (initiated 20 feb16:42) From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:05:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19674; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:33:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA12650 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 05:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA04851 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19126 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:54:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I've seen too many lists ruined by the one or two bullies and a list > admin who, in the name of "free speech" or simple absenteeism or > whatever, let those couple of people drive everyone else away > through harrassment, abuse or simple boorish nastiness. I know my > admin style bothers some folks, but I do reader surveys, and most of > my users appreciate it. I don't believe that freedom of speech > belongs only to the loudest and most aggressive, and *someone's* > gotta stand up for the people on the list that get intimidated by > the loud and noisy's -- and if that's not the list admin, who? Chuq, You have said a number of things in this thread that I strongly disagree with. In particular, you have a habit of putting words into other people's mouths, drawing conclusions not supported by facts posted to the list. If you were a subscriber on one of my lists, I would probably have sent you a warning about your abrasive rhetoric. On the other hand, I agree wholeheartedly with the paragraph quoted above. Freedom of speech has never been an absolute freedom. I have always reserved the right to maintain civility on my mailing lists. I enforce civility and I insist that my lists stay reasonably on topic. Freedom of speech does not include the right to hijack the forum of your choice. If someone finds my modest restrictions on their freedoms unacceptable, they are at liberty to seek another forum which better suits them. As this thread had developed, some folks have finally posted examples of off-list disputes which in fact needed the attention of the list admin. In my experience, substantive off-list disputes, which have been brought to my attention, are extremely rare. I have already sent in a post or two regarding real world examples which are currently stuck in the Internet plumbing somewhere. The lists I run are of modest size, ~600 subscribers. The topics I host are not particularly controversial. I diligently enforce civility on my lists. I suspect that list size, list topic, and the quality of list management all have an effect on the nature and quantity of off-list disputes. Blind luck is also a factor. Any of us could have their list attacked by a determined idiot or suffer a real world personal dispute spilling over into cyberspace. Regarding excessive posts by Leben: I suspect that part of the problem is that Leben, and many others on this list, have been both posting to the list and sending multiple carbon copying their replies. I have received many posts in duplicate. IMHO, Leben's posts have been on topic and were not excessive. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:14:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19708; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA28604 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA07849 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA04218 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:18:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:18:55 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > IMHO, too often llist administrators use the first part to excuse > themselves from ANY responsibility... I'm not sure what was said which would give the impression that a list admin should excuse themselves from any responsibility. If I mislead you, I'm sorry. I do still contend that a list admin should not get involved in minor private disputes between subscribers. I'll offer the following example from a recent incident on one of my lists. A couple of months ago, a new subscriber joined one of my technical lists. This fellow was also new to the Internet and to online forums in general. He made some typical awkward-newbie [tm] posts and sparked a minor flame war over his signature file. The signature was a few lines of scripture which several other subscribers found offensive. I managed the religious signature issue with a public response and sent the newbie some private advise. A month or so later, I got a private note from another subscriber. The same newbie had sent him a private note asking for help and materials, dropping names of other subscribers, and generally being overly familiar. The subscriber who got the private note was upset and asked for my help to stop similar private emails in the future. I read the private note sent by the newbie several times. The newbie's email looked like it had been written under the influence of alcohol or other drugs. I thought about this for a day or so then sent email to the subscriber who got the note. I suggested that the best option would be to ignore the message from the newbie. I offered to intervene if the newbie sent any additional unsolicited private notes. The fellow who had asked for help agreed that this would be the best option, barring further developments. A few days later, the newbie made an unprompted public apology, claiming that his account had been hacked. While I have doubts that hacking was involved, I had no other complaints from anyone. I've never seen anything like this before or since on any of my lists. If I had decided to go after the newbie with both guns blazing, this may have developed into a ugly affair. In my humble opinion, doing nothing was the best initial response in this situation. If there had been a significant threat sent by private mail and related to the mailing list, my response would have been different... Perhaps I've lead a charmed life. While I can conceive scenarios where I would need to get involved in a private dispute, I am hard pressed to think of actual incidents where I needed to intervene in a private exchange. Can anyone offer real world examples where you needed to get involved in a list-related private dispute? - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:15:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA27258; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:17:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA27193 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:16:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1951 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1998 23:15:31 -0000 Received: from bonkers.neosoft.com (HELO bonkers.taronga.com) (root@206.109.2.48) by mushi.colo.neosoft.com with SMTP; 9 Mar 1998 23:15:31 -0000 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA24348 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:15:20 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199803092315.RAA24348@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Administrivia filters and List-Managers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:15:19 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis: > I'm assuming the week-old messages appearing now are a result of messages > being caught by the administrivia filters. I'm not sure about that. This is all mail I've seen before. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:22:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA17144; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA01974 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:27:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jab.org (cc592915-a.sumt1.nj.home.com [24.3.176.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA25277 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:16:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jeff@localhost) by jab.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05306; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:18:31 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:18:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199803050418.XAA05306@jab.org> From: Jeff Breidenbach To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: feedback on list archive service Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'd like to get feedback on a mailing list archiving service I just pieced together. It's at http://archive.jab.org. I'm looking for comments, criticism, general thoughts, people to try it out, etc. Is this useful to anyone, or old hat? All feedback is appreciated. Thank you, Jeff Here's a descriptive blurb: * just for fun project * totally automated * uses mh/mhonarc * allows trivial web archiving; just add archive@jab.org to your mailing list. No need to do anything else. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:26:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA06233; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:09:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA27928 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id RAA07368 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:19:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803092319.RAA07368@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Administrivia filters and List-Managers Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:19:35 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3/9/98 3:14 PM, Dave Voorhis wrote... >I'm assuming the week-old messages appearing now are a result of messages >being caught by the administrivia filters. Given that we're all list >managers who SHOULD capable of aiming unzubzcribe requests to the right >place, and given that we're inevitably going to write things that trigger >the filters -- could we have the administrivia filters turned off, please? You give some people too much credit. I see administrative requests hitting list owners' lists all the time. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 17:52:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA25915; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA25806 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23766 ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:50:15 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:42:26 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:54 AM -0800 3/4/98, murr rhame wrote: > You have said a number of things in this thread that I strongly > disagree with. Gee. I'm crushed. amazed. Disheartened. (amused) -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 10 15:50:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA05103; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.multigen.com (mail.multigen.com [206.184.173.230]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA05088 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from plateau.engr.multigen.com (plateau.engr.multigen.com [209.24.52.10]) by mail.multigen.com (8.6.11/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA02244 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:35:46 -0800 Received: from zulu1.engr.multigen.com (xserv.engr.multigen.com [209.24.52.8]) by plateau.engr.multigen.com (8.6.11/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA03801 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:25:29 GMT Received: by xserv.engr.multigen.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:21:17 -0800 Message-ID: <86F098AC14A7D11194DD00A0C9499D04328C@xserv.engr.multigen.com> From: Zainab Baqar To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Filters Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:21:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I need some information on how to set up filters for a list server? Any ideas ? Thanks From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 11 14:39:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA06997; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.multigen.com (mail.multigen.com [206.184.173.230]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA06054 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from plateau.engr.multigen.com (plateau.engr.multigen.com [209.24.52.10]) by mail.multigen.com (8.6.11/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA07348 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:37:21 -0800 Received: from zulu1.engr.multigen.com (xserv.engr.multigen.com [209.24.52.8]) by plateau.engr.multigen.com (8.6.11/8.6.12) with ESMTP id SAA23800 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:27:07 GMT Received: by xserv.engr.multigen.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:22:53 -0800 Message-ID: <86F098AC14A7D11194DD00A0C9499D043290@xserv.engr.multigen.com> From: Zainab Baqar To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Filters Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:22:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I am new to majordomo, and basically have inherited it. I am trying to set up filters using majordomo and Perl. I have gone through the documentation and part of the archives. If someone has any ideas on how to set it up, I would really appreciate it. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 11 20:26:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA18263; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:41:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA18018 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:41:04 -0800 (PST) From: lev@bloomington.in.us Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA02493; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:41:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:41:44 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: lev@kirkwood.hoosier.net Reply-To: lev@bloomington.in.us To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com Subject: Re: New List Member... In-Reply-To: <199803092204.RAA13895@iwebb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I, also, wish basic how-to's of setting up a listserv. Thanks in advance On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com wrote: > Hello, > > I am new to this List. I joined because I would like to learn how to > create and manage a Listserv. I have just recently started learning so I > don't know all the terminology yet and I'm still learning the differeces > of the different Listservs. Any help or information would be greatly > apprciated! > > Thank you, > Jenifer > > BTW - Where do I get the software so I can begin and could some of you > e-mail privately to suggest what software is best or Mac. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please note and change my E-mail address: > > Old E-mail address - PJfam5@gotnet.net > > Thank you - Paul "To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man." : - Oliver Wendell Holmes : :......................................................................: From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 11 22:21:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA13065; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA12923 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id BAA26319; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA19689; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:09:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:09:50 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: lev@bloomington.in.us cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com Subject: Getting Started In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 11 Mar 1998 lev@bloomington.in.us wrote: > I, also, wish basic how-to's of setting up a listserv. This is definitely a frequently ask, though completely off-topic, question for the List-Managers mailing list. Please help me flesh out this reply out so we can reply by private mail the next time this comes up. First, you need to decide what sort of list you expect to run: Announcement or discussion? Moderated or not? Private or public? Access restrictions? How many subscribers do you anticipate? Have you written a charter and policy? If you know nothing about the various mailing list software packages, start with these links: http://www.catalog.com/vivian/mailing-list-software.html ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/archive-servers/faq ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq http://library.ummed.edu/~naleks/mlmfaq/mlmfaq_toc.html Each software package has a support mailing list which deals with setup issues for that particular software. List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is NOT a software support mailing list. For many people, the best option is to use someone else's server which is already setup and is always online. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 12 07:52:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA29409; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA29358 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02087 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:47:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA00682 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:47:27 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05553 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:47:23 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803121547.JAA05553@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Getting Started (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:47:22 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Murr wrote: > > > I, also, wish basic how-to's of setting up a listserv. > > This is definitely a frequently ask, though completely off-topic, > question for the List-Managers mailing list. Please help me flesh out > this reply out so we can reply by private mail the next time this > comes up. I don't know that I agree that the question is off-topic for this list. Yes, most of us here are long-time list managers discussing somewhat esoteric or obscure (and often politically charged) aspects of list management, but all of us were list management beginners once, too, even the ones who helped pioneer the development of e-mail based mailing lists 20 or so years ago. (Has it really been THAT long?) Perhaps the best way to handle this over the long haul is to have a FAQ or welcome document that might cover the 'getting started' question, with pointers to existing sources of information on list management software, netiquette, copyright information, etc. (It's been so long since I joined this list I'm not aware what new subscribers are sent anymore.) I would suggest that the opening section be called, 'So you want to run a mailing list?', and it should start out "ARE YOU CRAZY!!??" (And I'd be willing to help write such a beast.) Beyond that, I think Murr did a good job of raising some of the questions that a potential list manager SHOULD ask him/herself before getting too deeply involved in the project. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 14 03:37:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA14072; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from atlas.bit.net.au (atlas.bit.net.au [203.18.94.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA13787 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from default (carcus@port100.bit.net.au [203.62.185.100]) by atlas.bit.net.au (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA18641 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:30:39 +1000 X-Recipient: Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980314212845.0070a6c8@bit.net.au> X-Sender: carcus@bit.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:28:45 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marcus Subject: Other than Unix......... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi All I understand it's possible to run Majordomo from platforms other than Unix - anyone had successful experiences running under NT4 or even Win95? Cheers Marcus From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 14 09:23:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA25596; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA25467 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX V5.0) id 11; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:12:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:12:29 -0800 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: carcus@bit.net.au CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009C3298.A17D1CA3.11@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Other than Unix......... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"carcus@bit.net.au" "Marcus" 14-MAR-1998 03:41:05.29 > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > CC: > Subj: Other than Unix......... > On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:28:45 +1000, Marcus said: Marcus writes: > Hi All > > I understand it's possible to run Majordomo from platforms other than Unix > - anyone had successful experiences running under NT4 or even Win95? > > > > Cheers > Marcus > Marcus, Off of your topic a bit, but there are a variety of mail packages around. For all of my lists, I use the MX mailer, which runs on both VAX and AXP VMS systems. The "older" release, 4.2, is still "freeware", you'll have to ante up a few bucks for 5.0. And, smaller VMS systems can had bought practically for a song these days. IMHO, I find MX to be superior to anything running in the unix world these days. I'm not knocking any particular product you understand, this is just my opinion. Good luck, -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 15 08:07:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA03657; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 07:57:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA03645 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 07:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA25981 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:56:25 -0600 Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:56:25 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Internet provider pays $10,000 over libel Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is an interesting article which should concern list owners, particularly those who run their own servers. http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980314/national/national9.html [Selected quotes from above] "For the first time, the case has brought into sharp focus the potential for an Internet service provider to be liable globally for defamatory material published through its services." "His reading of the law was that liability could be established if the material was proven to be defamatory; if the service provider knew the material was being published; and if no action was taken to stop it." From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 16 10:27:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA28036; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA27911 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19926; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:41:08 -0600 Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19473; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:39:48 -0600 From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199803161639.KAA19473@bif.cd.com> Subject: Re: Internet provider pays $10,000 over libel To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:39:47 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Mitchell Leben" at Mar 15, 98 09:56:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This is an interesting article which should concern list owners, > particularly those who run their own servers. > > http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980314/national/national9.html The weasels settled :-( U.S. White House advisor Sidney Blumenthal including AOL in his lawsuit against Matt Drudge should also be of interest to list owners and ISPs. http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/other/politics/story/10886.html Richard Masoner From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 16 11:09:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA28696; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA28516 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:55:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA04990; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA22100; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:57:35 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:57:35 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: Richard Masoner cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Internet provider pays $10,000 over libel In-Reply-To: <199803161639.KAA19473@bif.cd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Richard Masoner wrote: > > This is an interesting article which should concern list owners, > > particularly those who run their own servers. > > > > http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980314/national/national9.html > > > The weasels settled :-( >From my reading of the report, the weasels were wrong. The plaintiff hand sent several requests to have the false reports stopped. His only recourse was the libel suit. > U.S. White House advisor Sidney Blumenthal including AOL in his lawsuit > against Matt Drudge should also be of interest to list owners and > ISPs. > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/email/other/politics/story/10886.html All that these cases prove is that there is no special exemption from libel exposure on the net. No big surprise and no change in the law. The Drudge/AOL case is not far enough along to guess what will happen. The report on the page listed above is very sketchy. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 17 10:58:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA06290; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com (austin.BSDI.COM [205.230.232.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA06272 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from austin.bsdi.com ({TOINjHRLKKRcYBcTY9dZCmzlhj8IDCzl}@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by austin.bsdi.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA12553 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:29:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199803171829.LAA12553@austin.bsdi.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Internet provider pays $10,000 over libel In-reply-to: List-Managers-Digest's message of Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:01:06 PST. References: <199803170901.BAA28736@honor.greatcircle.com> From: Tony Sanders Organization: earth.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:29:53 -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: murr rhame > On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Richard Masoner wrote: > > > > This is an interesting article which should concern list owners, > > > particularly those who run their own servers. > > > > > > http://www.smh.com.au/daily/content/980314/national/national9.html > > > > The weasels settled :-( They settled because the cost of defending themselves is probably 100x the cost of settling (more like 10K/week). And god help them (and all of us) if they tried it and lost. That's our idea of justice in this "enlightned" Age Of Litigation that we live in. > >From my reading of the report, the weasels were wrong. The plaintiff > hand sent several requests to have the false reports stopped. His > only recourse was the libel suit. The law says nothing about ``unless you were warned''. Mailing lists either are or they are not responsible for carrying libelous statements. IMHO A mailing list is *NOT* a magazine -- it is a print shop. We print up copies of our customers document, stuff them in envelopes, and mail them out. Why didn't the good doctor just sue the person making the statement? Why is that such a hard concept for people to grasp these days? From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 18 09:08:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA27089; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA27047 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:03:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA21439; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:04:25 -0600 Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA28472; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:03:00 -0600 From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199803181703.LAA28472@bif.cd.com> Subject: Re: Internet provider pays $10,000 over libel To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:03:00 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "murr rhame" at Mar 16, 98 01:57:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk DISCLAIMER: I'm a software engineer, not a lawyer. The information provided herein is not legal advice, but is for informational purposes only. If you need professional legal advice, seek a real lawyer. The opinions expressed herein are my personal opinions. Discussion of laws below pertain to the U.S. legal system. UK and Australian laws certainly differ. My apologies to those outside the United States for whom discussion of the U.S. Code [1] does not apply. I hope I'm not straying too far off-charter with this discussion, though it is on-topic for this thread. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > All that these cases prove is that there is no special exemption from > libel exposure on the net. No big surprise and no change in the law. I agree; the author of the information is just as liable whether he publishes it in the _Weekly World News_ or in alt.spam.spam.spam. But the 'Good Samaritan' provision of 47 USC 230 [2] states "No provider of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher of any information provided by another information content provider." There seems to be some thinking that, in spite of this provision, the provider can be held liable if they continue to publish the material once they are made aware of it. BUT, federal courts have also ruled that Section 230 relieves ISPs of liability even when they actually have knowledge that illegal defamatory content is being communicated over their systems. [3] Conversely, USC 230 also says that no provider can be held liable for any action it voluntarily takes in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the provider considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or otherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected. That means ISPs can legally filter material, and they can remove webpages they consider offensive. ObListManagement: Umm, list-owners would not be considered a "provider of an interactive computer service" in USC 230. :-( So while the ISP is protected, the listowner probably is not. We may fall under the defintion of "information content provider," I suppose. How many listowners carry some sort of umbrella policy or professional liability policy? Richard Masoner -------------------------------------------------------------------- ENDNOTES [1] A nifty search engine of of the US Code can be found at http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ Unfortunately, the information is a couple of years old and doesn't contain many of the newer provisions related to telecom law, such as section 230. [2] Title 47 of the U.S. Code regulates "Telegraphs, Telephones, and Radiotelephones." Unfortunately, I could not find the text of section 230 on the Web, probably because this law is so new. [3] US 4th Circuit of Appeals, Zeran v. America Online Inc, no. 97-1523. See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ See also Doe v. America Online http://www.loundy.com/CASES/Doe_v_AOL.html From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 22 17:02:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA29281; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from espresso.2xtreme.net (espresso.2xtreme.net [208.147.33.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA29264 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.147.33.132] by espresso.2xtreme.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-34955U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAD269 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:16:21 -0800 Subject: Annoucement Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 16:26:13 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Victor Kongkadee To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <19980323001615437.AAD269@[208.147.33.132]> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List members and Web Master, I've been a member of this list for quite sometime now. What a = wonderful thing you guys have got going here. I have found so much = useful information through you. I just launched my web site = VICTORonline (http://www.victoronline.com). The goal of my site is to = be a public information resource on the Internet and to serve as an = opportunity for Internet users to share their knowledge and creative = thought with one another. This site will have all kinds of = interesting stuff that has to do with graphic design, digital = imaging, pre-press, and web, plus computer related subjects. For = example, this month=B9s Gallery section features an interview and = sample artwork from Gordon Studer, in which he shares the methods = behind his unique art and tips for a successful career in digital art. Please take this announcement as my formal invitation to all of you = to visit my site, and please pass the word around to anyone you think = might be interested. I look forward to getting any comments from you = on how I can improve my site. Looking forward to seeing you there and hearing from you. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Victor Kongkadee =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D victork@2xtreme.net http://www.victoronline.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 23 18:47:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA14171; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:43:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from viper.acatlan.unam.mx (viper.acatlan.unam.mx [132.248.80.196]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA14162 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by viper.acatlan.unam.mx via SMTP (950413.SGI.8.6.12/940406.SGI.AUTO) for id UAA25671; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:45:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:45:42 -0800 (PST) From: CASTILLO ABEL ELIAS Sun - 0251 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: hi everybody! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi!!! can anybody help me!!! please , i install majordomo in my machine ( ultra 1 , sun mycrosystems , with solaris 2.5.1 ) , i dont have troubles from install perl 5.04 and majordomo , but when i create a new list nobody can receive a mail , all mails arrive at majordom account , but dont send at memebers of list , i mofdify majordom.cf and list.config , but its the same. this its a mail's majordomo received : vulcano% mail From Mailer-Daemon Fri Mar 20 13:51:34 1998 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:51:33 -0600 From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Cannot open /usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/sample: Permission denied Message-Id: <199803201951.NAB17743@vulcano.acatlan.unam.mx> To: owner-sample@vulcano.acatlan.unam.mx Content-Length: 1318 " vulcano its the machine where install the program , i used newaliases command from sendmail restart the aliases from sendmail.cf and /usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/sample: have 664 permissions , and own and grup its majordom user " The original message was received at Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:51:33 -0600 from majordom@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- /usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/archive/sample/sample (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: sample-archive) :include:/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/sample (unrecoverable error) (expanded from: sample-outgoing) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 /usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/archive/sample/sample... Can't create output: Operation not permitted Message delivered to mailing list sample-archive 550 :include:/usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/sample... Cannot open /usr/test/majordomo-1.94.4/lists/sample: Permission denied Message delivered to mailing list sample-outgoing ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: by vulcano.acatlan.unam.mx (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA17743; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:51:33 -0600 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:53:34 -0800 (PST) From: CASTILLO ABEL ELIAS Sun - 0251 To: sample@vulcano.acatlan.unam.mx Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-sample@vulcano.acatlan.unam.mx Precedence: bulk content-length: 11 asassfdsd in the sample.config i dont know what variables have to change ? :( # archive_dir [absolute_dir] (undef) # The directory where the mailing list archive is kept. This item # does not currently work. Leave it blank. archive_dir = ok , in this section i make dir or majordomo make it , and what permissions will have this dir. # digest_archive [absolute_dir] (undef) # The directory where the digest archive is kept. This item does # not currently work. Leave it blank. digest_archive = what are the difference between archive_dir and digest_archive? # moderate [bool] (no) # If yes, all postings to the list must be approved by the # moderator. moderate = no "in this section i dont change because i think all members can send mails to list. obviously the next line its a blank " moderator = # reply_to [word] () # Put a reply-to header with value into the outgoing # message. If the token $SENDER is used, then the address of the # sender is used as the value of the reply-to header. This is the # value of the reply-to header for digest lists. reply_to = in this section if i have a digest archive and digest work dir , i have to write resend or digest? well , maybe i have to modify others parameters but i dont know . thanks for all. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 23 19:47:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA18101; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA18041 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX V5.0) id 131; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:11:33 -0800 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:11:32 -0800 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009C3A17.F4659964.131@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: Slightly off-topic - ISP list or group Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, All, This list has been a great resource for us all, sharing our experiences as list managers, probably one of the most thankless jobs that there is. I was wondering if anyone knew of a list or a newsgroup dedicated to running an ISP? I just bought into our local, basically to help keep it from going under, and I am also the new technical director. (or VP of Technology, whatever) If there is not such a list, I'd be glad to help start one. Best, -HWM From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 23 20:32:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA02216; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:28:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA02209 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:28:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yHLMZ-00013R-00; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:31:00 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980324042958.008ab430@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:29:58 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Slightly off-topic - ISP list or group In-Reply-To: <009C3A17.F4659964.131@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I was wondering if anyone knew of a list or a newsgroup >dedicated to running an ISP? I just bought into our local, basically to >help keep it from going under, and I am also the new technical director. >(or VP of Technology, whatever) The closest thing to it I can think of is the freebsd-isp list (see www.freebsd.org) Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 23 20:47:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05614; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from siren.shore.net (siren.shore.net [207.244.124.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA05488 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:42:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] (jeffw) by siren.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yHLa9-0004eb-00; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:45:02 -0500 Received: (from jeffw@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) id XAA13516; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:47:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980323234728.59763@smoe.org> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:47:28 -0500 From: Jeff Wasilko To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Slightly off-topic - ISP list or group References: <009C3A17.F4659964.131@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.76 In-Reply-To: <009C3A17.F4659964.131@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV>; from "Henry W. Miller" on Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 07:11:32PM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Mar 23, 1998 at 07:11:32PM -0800, Henry W. Miller wrote: > I was wondering if anyone knew of a list or a newsgroup > dedicated to running an ISP? I just bought into our local, basically to > help keep it from going under, and I am also the new technical director. > (or VP of Technology, whatever) inet-access@earth.com, the Internet Access Providers mailing list. The purpose of the list is to exchange ideas about setting up and running Internet access systems and discuss issues related to being an Internet Access Provider (IAP) or Internet Service Provider (ISP). The list is expressly *not* for users to ask questions about internet providers, they should use Usenet's alt.internet.services for that. *All* administrative requests should go to To have your email address added to the mailing list send the following to the above address in the *body* of the message: subscribe or subscribe To remove your email address from the mailing list send: unsubscribe or unsubscribe There are *NO* other list options available. Only registered members can submit messages to the list. You can access the inet-access archives via anonymous ftp to ftp.earth.com in pub/archive/inet-access (see the FAQ there). If you have some material that you would like me to archive on the server then send it to with subject ``Archive''. To contact the listadmin directly email to owner-inet-access@earth.com. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 24 05:03:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA13742; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbcgate.bbc.co.uk (gatea.bbc.co.uk [132.185.132.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA13678 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunf0.rd.bbc.co.uk (ddmailgate.rd.bbc.co.uk [132.185.128.104]) by bbcgate.bbc.co.uk (8.8.8/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA02223 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:13:39 GMT Received: from sunf25.rd.bbc.co.uk by sunf0.rd.bbc.co.uk; Tue, 24 Mar 98 12:13:38 GMT Received: from sunf25 by sunf25.rd.bbc.co.uk; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:13:37 GMT X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:13:37 +0000 Message-Id: <18914.890741617@sunf25> From: Simon Lockhart Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm just working throught the technical aspects of a project which plans to send an email every day to each user which subscribes to the service. They are planning on mailing to 200,000 users, in a 4 hour time frame. The project "owners" keep going on about wanting to sign agreements with some major ISPs to ensure we don't get blacklisted as spammers. Has anyone come across anything like this before? Does anyone have any experience of doing this kind of thing? Anyone got any hints as to whether sending 200,000 individual emails (i.e. not the same email to everyone) within a 4 hour timeframe is feasible, and what sort of machine we'd need to do it (we use Sun's)? Thanks, Simon Lockhart -- Simon Lockhart | Tel: 01737 836676 Computer Systems Engineer | Fax: 01737 836665 BBC Research & Development | Email: Simon.Lockhart@rd.bbc.co.uk Kingswood Warren, Tadworth, Surrey. | URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/ From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 24 05:47:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA24441; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbcgate.bbc.co.uk (gatea.bbc.co.uk [132.185.132.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA24418 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunf0.rd.bbc.co.uk (ddmailgate.rd.bbc.co.uk [132.185.128.104]) by bbcgate.bbc.co.uk (8.8.8/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA11579; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:40:51 GMT Received: from sunf25.rd.bbc.co.uk by sunf0.rd.bbc.co.uk; Tue, 24 Mar 98 13:40:50 GMT Received: from sunf25 by sunf25.rd.bbc.co.uk; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:40:50 GMT X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Steve Kohlreiter Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:33:40 GMT." <350870AB0000143B@webnet.trilogy.net> (added by webnet.trilogy.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:40:50 +0000 Message-Id: <19582.890746850@sunf25> From: Simon Lockhart Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It seems to me that what you are doing is not a service to your subscribers. > Signing an agreement to bombard your customers is SPAM. Sorry - perhaps I didn't make myself clear - the subscribers would be joining the service with the intention of receiving an email every day. Simon -- Simon Lockhart | Tel: 01737 836676 Computer Systems Engineer | Fax: 01737 836665 BBC Research & Development | Email: Simon.Lockhart@rd.bbc.co.uk Kingswood Warren, Tadworth, Surrey. | URL: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/ From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 24 06:02:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA25848; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA25822 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yHU6Y-0004DN-00; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:51:02 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980324134952.00801ab0@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:52 +0000 To: Simon Lockhart From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <18914.890741617@sunf25> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Does anyone have any experience of doing this kind of thing? Anyone got >any hints as to whether sending 200,000 individual emails (i.e. not the >same email to everyone) within a 4 hour timeframe is feasible, and what >sort of machine we'd need to do it (we use Sun's)? Lots of bandwidth and a good mail server would be the priorities. If it's a 10k email then that's up to 2Gb of data you want to push out there in 4 hours which equates to a sustained bandwidth use of over 1Mbit - and to get a sustained rate without lots of gaps (do do mx lookups, connectes etc) you'll need a good mail server. May well want to look at outsourcing for this let alone possible "spam" concerns to be honest. Re: Spam: be warned! Make sure you think about things like how you support people saying they don't want the mails (and never getting added back on), people having it made clear to them before hand that they may get the mails etc. Manar From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 24 12:32:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA19960; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from triceratops.com (triceratops.com [206.83.162.235]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA19934 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:01 -0800 (PST) From: johnjohn@triceratops.com Received: (qmail 5916 invoked by uid 100); 24 Mar 1998 20:23:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19980324202354.5915.qmail@triceratops.com> Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:23:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <18914.890741617@sunf25> from "Simon Lockhart" at Mar 24, 98 12:13:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm just working throught the technical aspects of a project which plans > to send an email every day to each user which subscribes to the service. > They are planning on mailing to 200,000 users, in a 4 hour time frame. > > The project "owners" keep going on about wanting to sign agreements with > some major ISPs to ensure we don't get blacklisted as spammers. Has anyone > come across anything like this before? How and why would that happen? If you have a list which people voluntarily subscribe to, have a decent confirmation process so the malicious can't fake subscriptions, keep records of the sub/conf process, and have a solid, easy unsubscribe process, how would you ever get accused of sending spam? > Does anyone have any experience of doing this kind of thing? Anyone got > any hints as to whether sending 200,000 individual emails (i.e. not the > same email to everyone) within a 4 hour timeframe is feasible, and what > sort of machine we'd need to do it (we use Sun's)? The choke points as I see them: speed of your MTA speed of your MLM amount of dedicated internet bandwidth Obviously the answers to those questions bring up other questions. It sounds like you have some kind of app to customize a basic message to each sender... First off, if you're spamming, merely customizing your message won't change the fact that you're spamming. Secondly, you have to have your MTA capable of handling 200K messages dumped on it. The author of qmail, the mta I happen to use, describes the process fo queueing 5K messages on his home machine as taking 23 minutes (deliveries turned off), so you might want to investigate spending some ca$h on fast disk i/o. Though I haven't tried it, I've heard that a RAID 0+1 or SSD mounted as the queue will speed up this bottleneck. I'd do some quick math on your network connection. I belive I saw a sample computation, so I won't repeat it. John -- John White Triceratops Admin johnjohn@triceratops.com From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 25 18:51:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA00632; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:35:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA00531 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27846 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:55:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24627 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:58:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA14716 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:58:07 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17150 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:58:04 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803242058.OAA17150@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:58:03 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > The project "owners" keep going on about wanting to sign agreements with > > some major ISPs to ensure we don't get blacklisted as spammers. Has anyone > > come across anything like this before? > > How and why would that happen? If you have a list which people > voluntarily subscribe to, have a decent confirmation process so > the malicious can't fake subscriptions, keep records of the > sub/conf process, and have a solid, easy unsubscribe process, > how would you ever get accused of sending spam? Some sites only look at the quantity of mail, not any specifics regarding it. If anything, the fact that each item is unique might actually be MORE likely to trip a UCE/spam filter. AOL has been known to block mail from some domains when they receive too much mail from it, apparently on the theory that anybody sending that much e-mail must be doing something evil. (I haven't heard of them doing this lately, but I know of at least two cases where it happened in 1997.) And since over 12% of my 1500 mailing list subscribers are on AOL, a similar ratio applied to a list of 200,000 names would produce a very large quantity of mail destined for AOL in a rather short period of time. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 25 19:03:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA00707; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:35:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA00599 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:35:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA14490 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:35:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803242235.OAA14490@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (192.36.125.4) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <10.5FCA67F9@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:38:12 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5427; Tue, 24 Mar 98 23:39:56 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 9622; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:39:56 +0100 Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:20:46 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Simon Lockhart In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:13:37 +0000 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:13:37 +0000 Simon Lockhart said: >I'm just working throught the technical aspects of a project which plans >to send an email every day to each user which subscribes to the service. >They are planning on mailing to 200,000 users, in a 4 hour time frame. A 200MHz Pentium Pro with LSMTP will deliver about 150,000 customised messages an hour, assuming they are reasonably short and that you have the bandwidth, a fast name server and so on. These figures are from real traffic from our own mail-merge service. However, to reach this performance it may be necessary to optimise the procedure that queries the database and generates the individual messages. More often than not, procedures written in scripting languages are unable to cut the messages at this rate even on a fast machine. A simple solution is to prepare the messages in advance, but this is not always an option in the news branch. There will be a better and much faster way to do all this in the next version. >The project "owners" keep going on about wanting to sign agreements with >some major ISPs to ensure we don't get blacklisted as spammers. The ISPs can't prevent you from being black-listed. If you retain the services of an ISP to perform the delivery, they are the ones who will be risking black-listing. Either way, if the message is solicited and worded properly (very important), complaints will be few. We have sent announcements going to 1M people with less than 10 complaints, likewise we have sent announcements to a mere 50k recipients which led to hundreds of complaints. In both cases, the announcements were legitimate and had been subscribed to, but the second customer had used a subject of "$59.95 INSTANT REBATE - LIMITED TIME OFFER!" *sigh* Anyway, with the BBC's reputation I would not worry too much about that. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 25 19:04:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA20638; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:52:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA20601 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA06101 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:00:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA15314; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09035; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:10:33 -0800 To: postmaster@2xtreme.net, abuse@2xtreme.net, admin@2xtreme.net, postmaster@wco.net, abuse@wco.net Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM Subject: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! X-Copyright: (c) 1997 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:10:33 -0800 Message-ID: <9033.890619033@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Mailed and posted to news.admin.net-abuse.email] If there's one thing I hate even more than spammers, its spammers who spam mailing lists. Cutting off their fingers is too mild a punishment for them. These people need to be castrated. Most of all they need to be throw off the net for good. As a result of this spam, I am adding 2xtreme.net's entire 208.147.33.0/24 netblock to my blacklist until the spammed-for web page: http://www.victoronline.com is no longer visible, and I encourage everyone else to do likewise. I am sick of these mailing list spammer assholes. Once Krazy Kevin was brought up on criminal charges in Ney York State, I really thought that we were done with this s**t, but apparently not. I will be making all inquiries, by phone, with both 2xtreme.net and WCO.NET bright and early on Monday morning about this incident. I'm fairly completely sure that WCO, at least, doesn't allow this kind of crap on their network. Ron Guilmette E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. Roseville, California http://www.e-scrub.com/ ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Return-Path: Received: from eagle.ns.net (smtp@eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA08365 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:51:25 -0800 Received: from relay7.UU.NET (relay7.UU.NET [192.48.96.17]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12831 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) id QQehwm23415; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA29281; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from espresso.2xtreme.net (espresso.2xtreme.net [208.147.33.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA29264 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.147.33.132] by espresso.2xtreme.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-34955U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAD269 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:16:21 -0800 Subject: Annoucement Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 16:26:13 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Victor Kongkadee To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-ID: <19980323001615437.AAD269@[208.147.33.132]> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by monkeys.com id RAA08365 X-Processed-By: Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter, Version 0.90 List members and Web Master, I've been a member of this list for quite sometime now. What a wonderful thing you guys have got going here. I have found so much useful information through you. I just launched my web site VICTORonline (http://www.victoronline.com). The goal of my site is to be a public information resource on the Internet and to serve as an opportunity for Internet users to share their knowledge and creative thought with one another. This site will have all kinds of interesting stuff that has to do with graphic design, digital imaging, pre-press, and web, plus computer related subjects. For example, this monthıs Gallery section features an interview and sample artwork from Gordon Studer, in which he shares the methods behind his unique art and tips for a successful career in digital art. Please take this announcement as my formal invitation to all of you to visit my site, and please pass the word around to anyone you think might be interested. I look forward to getting any comments from you on how I can improve my site. Looking forward to seeing you there and hearing from you. =============================== Victor Kongkadee =============================== victork@2xtreme.net http://www.victoronline.com =============================== ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 26 07:19:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA11628; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA01903 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.86.79.236] (user-38lcjvc.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.79.236]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA02761; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:56:41 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: met@pop.mindspring.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9033.890619033@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:56:30 -0800 To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" From: "Mark E. Taylor" Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:10 PM -0800 3/22/98, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >I will be making all inquiries, by phone, with both 2xtreme.net and >WCO.NET >bright and early on Monday morning about this incident. I'm fairly >completely >sure that WCO, at least, doesn't allow this kind of crap on their network. I have noticed on one of my lists a spammer sending mail to the owner address. I have dealt with WCO on a non-spam issue and they were quite helpful. They do not tolerate spam and terminate accounts on their system. Recently someone spammed me from USA. net to which I got back the following when I complained: ========= Dear Sir or Madam, Thank you for reporting the unsolicited commercial e-mail that you recently received. We have cancelled the sender's account for complaints of spam, which violate(s) our Terms & Conditions Agreement. ====== Now that is what I call effective spam blocking! Mark =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-= Mark E. Taylor Weekly writer of NetWatch in The American Reporter. Keep track of scams by reading this article every Wednesday at http://www.american-reporter.com Netwatch Mailing List mailto:majordomo@listbox.com message: subscribe netwatch =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 27 14:48:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01572; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:50:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gizmo.lut.ac.uk (gizmo.lut.ac.uk [158.125.96.46]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA01545 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (net.lut.ac.uk) [127.0.0.1] (martin) by gizmo.lut.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yIg7w-0002It-00; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:53:24 +0000 To: martinh@gnu.org X-URI: Subject: FYI: Content-MD5(-Origin) hacks Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:53:17 +0000 From: Martin Hamilton Message-Id: Content-MD5: QJnqH1xf5yC3kcK92OFn3Q== Content-MD5-Origin: gizmo.lut.ac.uk Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Apologies for cross-posting! This might be of interest... :-) Ciao! Martin What's this ? Some hacks on widely used mail programs which let you suppress duplicate copies of messages with exactly the same content. Why ? This is a characteristic of lots of Bad Things, e.g. sp*m, pathologically broken mail systems/gateways, and malconfigured mail systems. Does it work ? Seems to - but you'd have to be crazy to run it on a production system! Needs some alpha testers, hence this message :-) MANIFEST: draft-hamilton-content-md5-origin-00.txt - tech docs exim-hacks - patch for Exim 1.82 (new version!) sendmail-hacks - patch for sendmail 8.8.8 procmail-hacks - patch for procmail 3.11pre7 majordomo-hacks - not yet! watch the skies!! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBNRwRf9ZdpXZXTSjhAQHIfgP/acWj0Ir3XBbJ9X4NXXv3DAweJnyjZ/Ta vPYkXqdxiOs1wY7e/JsOP4z0Q38P4kOeVEdNoFPxnDOT+7iwiUUqc9ytTccWVa2e oQhrMzafhE5SsohMAGtwzeTg128o0vcr4OyStGzRqwOaMvMHxGt+zbFRVYYvvR46 Le9ailSRljQ= =iwxT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 27 20:07:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA13625; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA13610 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from findmail.com (vault.findmail.com [206.14.154.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA16311 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12710 invoked by uid 505); 26 Mar 1998 00:27:28 -0000 Date: 26 Mar 1998 00:27:28 -0000 Message-ID: <19980326002728.12709.qmail@findmail.com> From: "Bryan Schremp" Subject: Re: Bulk Email agreements with ISPs? In-Reply-To: <18914.890741617@sunf25> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anyone have any experience of doing this kind of thing? Anyone got > any hints as to whether sending 200,000 individual emails (i.e. not the > same email to everyone) within a 4 hour timeframe is feasible, and what > sort of machine we'd need to do it (we use Sun's)? If you have some cash to put out, take a look at L-SOFT (www.lsoft.com). With LISTSERV and LSMTP and a P200 with 256MB, you can put out about 700,000 emails in 4 hours, provided you have the bandwidth. They have versions for various o/s's. If output is what you desire, this is the software. Bryan Schremp Email Admin Egghead.com From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 27 21:19:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA13879; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA13867 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from opus.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-253-5.NCR.COM [153.64.253.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA12436 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:16:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803261716.JAA12436@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: by opus.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM; 26 Mar 98 09:21:07 PST From: Bill.Houle@SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (Bill Houle) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:21:07 -0800 In-Reply-To: "Mark E. Taylor" Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! (Mar 25, 7:56pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: "Mark E. Taylor" , "Ronald F. Guilmette" Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 25, 7:56pm, "Mark E. Taylor" wrote: } ========= } Dear Sir or Madam, } } Thank you for reporting the unsolicited commercial e-mail that you } recently received. } } We have cancelled the sender's account for complaints of spam, which } violate(s) our Terms & Conditions Agreement. } } ====== } Now that is what I call effective spam blocking! The problem with lists getting spammed means that that list address is now on spam lists being used by multiple bulk mail distributors -- (68 million addresses for only $9.95!). So you can complain till you are blue in the face to get one perpetrator ousted, but other accounts will always pop up using this common list. majordomo-workers and -users was first hit about 2 months ago, and now it seems we are averaging 3 per week. The only way this can be stopped is to either make the lists restrict_post'ed or put some sendmail anti-spam actions on the GreatCircle server. As a list member (not owner), I'm getting sick of it and will accept any solution to make it stop. --bill From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 27 21:23:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA13687; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA13679 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from espresso.2xtreme.net (espresso.2xtreme.net [208.147.33.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA11258 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:24:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803260724.XAA11258@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from [208.147.33.145] by espresso.2xtreme.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-34955U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA228; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:27:39 -0800 Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:37:23 -0800 x-sender: victor2@2xtreme.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: "victor@victoronline.com" To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , , , , , cc: , , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ron, Thank you for taking time to talk with me on the phone tonight. As we discussed, when I sent out my announcement, I was unaware that it was considered spam. After talking to you, I am much more clear as to what is and is not appropriate to send to list members. As we agreed, I have posted an apology message on my site. Once again I regret any inconvenience this has caused. =============================== Victor Kongkadee =============================== victor@victoronline.com http://www.victoronline.com =============================== From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 28 09:48:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA07313; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA07236 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 08:21:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA08852 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19009 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:24:44 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:24:44 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! In-Reply-To: <199803261716.JAA12436@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Bill Houle wrote: > ... The only way this can be stopped is to either make the lists > restrict_post'ed or put some sendmail anti-spam actions on the > GreatCircle server. As a list member (not owner), I'm getting sick > of it and will accept any solution to make it stop. In my humble opinion, allowing unmoderated posts by non-subscribers is insane. Mailing lists are prime targets for spammers. If you can send your spam through a mailing list, you get nearly 100% delivery rates and some innocent mailing system does the dirty work. Subscriber lists are also extremely tempting targets for spammers. Spammers regularly attempt to get the full subscriber list of every list served by my Listproc. Mailing list subscribers are premium, known-to-be-good, email addresses. If you have not protected your subscriber data, please do so as soon as possible. I can help with the listproc configs. Consult the appropriate software support forum if you use other software. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 28 12:22:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA23087; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA22844 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:03:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA12815; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA22047; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:06:55 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: Shannon Appel cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! In-Reply-To: <199803281938.TAA08719@erzo.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Shannon Appel wrote: > >In my humble opinion, allowing unmoderated posts by non-subscribers > >is insane. Mailing lists are prime targets for spammers. > > Unfortunately what you propose is punishing the victims for the > criminal's actions. > > Moderating your list to only allow subscribers to post is, no doubt > about it, a hardship on your subscribers; it makes your list harder > for them to use. A not insignificant numbers of your subscribers will > try and post from a different address than the one your list server > thinks they receive their email at, and thus they will fail. > Experience says this is a continual problem. Obviously, there is going to be a price to pay regardless of the choice you make. I do have to spend some time helping my subscribers who use alternative addresses. With listproc, it is fairly simple to use the alias command to add any number of alternate posting addresses while still sending the subscription to only one address. IMHO, If I did not filter spammers, I would inconvenience my subscribers far more by allowing spam to be sent through my lists. Once a spammer finds a good delivery method, they tend to use that technique as much as they can. > The real solution is for ISPs to take definitive legal action against > those criminals who violate their terms of service. Lacking ISPs moral > enough to take this step, we can only pray that governments begin > passing laws to prevent this abuse, much as they did for faxes a > decade ago (and yes, there are several laws being considered in the > United States). Prosecution of spammers would be nice. In practice, very few ISP's have the resources to pursue spammers in civil court. On the criminal side, you would have to convince a prosecutor to press criminal charges. Most prosecutors as not willing to expend their resources on spam except in the most flagrant cases of repeat offense. A few cases have been won both in the criminal courts and in civil cases. Not enough wins yet to discourage the spammers. There is proposed federal legislation which would make it much easier to pursue spammers in civil court. This legislation is patterned after the junk-fax laws already on the books. > The bottom line being: inconveniencing your mail list members by > locking up the list should be considering a last resort, and only > undertaken if your list's address has actually gotten onto a > criminal spammer's list. Again I disagree. I consider setting up an occasional alias address is a very small price to pay to prevent spam. You are certainly at liberty to leave your lists open posts from anyone if you so choose. I have no intention of changing my setups. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 29 08:48:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA03901; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 08:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from elycion.geology.ualberta.ca (elycion.geology.ualberta.ca [129.128.54.168]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03894 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 08:47:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (49-96-unassigned.getnet.com [207.254.96.49]) by elycion.geology.ualberta.ca (8.8.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29576 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:46:54 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 11:24 -0500 3/28/98, murr rhame said: >In my humble opinion, allowing unmoderated posts by non-subscribers >is insane. Mailing lists are prime targets for spammers. If you can >send your spam through a mailing list, you get nearly 100% delivery >rates and some innocent mailing system does the dirty work. Subscriber >lists are also extremely tempting targets for spammers. Hallelujah, brother. If you haven't limited your mailing list to posts by subscribers only, then you have no basis for complaints about spam on the list. "But what about people who need to be able to post from multiple accounts?" Ah. Think we haven't already broached that problem, eh? Wrong. It's easy: They subscribe from every account from which they might need to post, and simply set the "extra" accounts to NOMAIL. "But my mail server doesn't have a NOMAIL feature!" Another easy one -- you are obviously running the wrong MLM software. It's no longer a friendly 'Net out there. Spam means war -- and if you do not have sufficiently sophisticated weapons to deal effectively with the threat, then you will lose the war. "But that's really inconvenient!" Right. So is having to lock your car when you go to the mall. But at least it's there when you return. Or so the theory goes. And if you haven't secured your address list so that only the list OWNERS can get to it, then you are doing your subscribers a *major* disservice. I routinely have people try to acquire the subscriber lists for my mailing lists; I've even had people who've gone to the trouble of subscribing first, apparently under the impression that the address lists might be available to subscribers. And yes, I can usually tell the difference between someone who is trying "standard" methods to get his *own* subscription information, and someone who is hoping to acquire a long list of active addresses. There's a war going on. Act like it. ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio It's back: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Ted Kaczinsky meant well -- he just needed a better target list. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 29 15:18:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA22750; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:17:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from kalvermarkt.denhaag.dataweb.net (kalvermarkt.denhaag.dataweb.net [193.78.237.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA22738 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.78.237.34] (spui-19.denhaag.dataweb.nl [193.78.237.48]) by kalvermarkt.denhaag.dataweb.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA06548 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 01:20:48 +0200 X-Sender: macwehel@pop.dataweb.nl Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 01:26:18 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Wouter vd Helm Subject: question re hosting... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, Currently I am managing a list which is run on AOL using Listserv. This list has to move somewhere else for various reasons. Now my question is, do any of you know of a good server which will let you host a list, preferably for free or for not too much money, since I am the one having to pay for it :o) It doesn't really matter which software is being used, as long as it's reliable and reasonably fast...this is because the list is circulating news items about my and the listees beloved football (soccer) team. Please reply off list as I can imagine this subject not being too interesting for others who already have a succesful list going :o) Thanks in advance Cheers Wouter From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 29 16:33:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA00443; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:18:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA00406 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA13401; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18605; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:22:17 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:22:17 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Wouter vd Helm cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing List Hosting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Wouter vd Helm wrote: > Now my question is, do any of you know of a good server which will > let you host a list, preferably for free or for not too much money, > since I am the one having to pay for it :o) This is a frequently asked question so I'll reply publicly now and then. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 30 12:12:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA29672; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:51:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA29649 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:51:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 14:54:14 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Wayne McGuire Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9803301454.aa23868@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Good example: Hotmail, which was recently >purchased by Microsoft for nearly half a billion >dollars and which currently boasts in the >neighborhood of 12 million subscribers. Hotmail is >a full-fledged HTML mail reader. And is a domain currently filtered from at least one list I run. >are very mainstream these days, and cost no more >than plain text mail readers. Hotmail is free and >HTML mail and news readers will be built into >Windows 98. Clue: Not everyone uses Windows. >Individuals, mailing lists and workgroups should >be free to use plain text mail or HTML plus plain >text mail as they see fit. It's a free country. That's right: taboo_body << END /^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i END Works just fine for me. >In the long run, clearly HTML/XML mail will become >the dominant standard since it is a richer, more >comprehensive, more expressive and more useful >medium, one which includes plain text, enhanced >text and any complex combination of media one can >imagine. If I might be so blunt: Horse Manure. You can wrap drivel in all the HTML you want, and it's still drivel. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 31 00:43:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA22931; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:29:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from cyberq.quality.org (cyberq.quality.org [199.181.80.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA22923 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (help@localhost) by cyberq.quality.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA07673 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:33:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:33:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Bill Casti, CQA (System Administrator)" To: List Managers List Subject: Re: Mailing List Hosting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We provide mailing list hosting at our various domains (casti.com, qrd.org, quality.org, etc.) for $10/month for unmoderated lists. Moderated lists are available, too, so long as those who want it provide their own moderator. Regards. Bill ============================================================================= Bill Casti, CQA Email: help@quality.org Domain Owner, QUALITY.ORG Pager: +1 800 604 6149 President, Associated Quality Consultants, Inc. Fax: +1 703 834 8209 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Visit our Online Quality Resources Website and Bookstore at http://www.quality.org ============================================================================= On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, murr rhame wrote: > On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Wouter vd Helm wrote: > > > Now my question is, do any of you know of a good server which will > > let you host a list, preferably for free or for not too much money, > > since I am the one having to pay for it :o) > > This is a frequently asked question so I'll reply publicly now and > then. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list > service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some > charge very modest fees. > > - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt > - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following > line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt > > If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, > contact Brian Edmonds . > > > - murr - > > From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 31 18:45:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA00788; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:13:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [209.64.54.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA00380 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from exchange.di.com(209.64.54.3) by bbfm.di.com for on Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:18:02 -0800 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:16:47 -0800 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:16:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk taboo_body << END /^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i END At first, I wanted to take this approach as well. Unfortunately, many subscribers are stuck behind e-mail gateways at some small companies where they can't change this kind of behavior (configured at the server). So I have written a series of scripts as a front end (I call it the anal.filter) that tries as hard as it can to look for plain text that is usually included in MIME-type messages. Not only does this solve the HTML problem, but it also at the same time takes care of the infamous WINMAIL.DAT enclosure. It then scrubs all the MIME stuff off before passing it into majordomo 1.93 (I also do things like "cartoonize" profanity, word wrap long messages, change =2A to '.', etc... I even have it take care of some particularly annoying common spelling errors!). It has certainly made my mailing lists a lot nicer to look at, and allows everyone to participate without much pain. -todd-