From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 21:24:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23764; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA23738 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05781 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Privacy of Zubscribers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I own and host a public lizt whose membership is not available to the public. I don't make any great claims to privacy, but do my best to respect everyone's privacy. It seems member #2 received hate mail from someone using an anonymous mailer, and suspects someone on the list. He asked me if I have anyone from the domain xxx.yyy.zzz, and I do. Just one zubscriber. I have not mentioned this fact to member #2, for a couple of reasons: 1. I do not care to get involved in an issue between two zubscribers off the list. 2. Protecting the privacy of zubscriber #1 (the suspected hate mailer). What would you do? Thanks. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 21:53:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA04285; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA03962 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA05067; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:48:28 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:59:26 -0500 To: Mitchell Leben From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 0:02 -0500 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben said: >It seems member #2 received hate mail from someone using an anonymous >mailer, and suspects someone on the list. He asked me if I have anyone >from the domain xxx.yyy.zzz, and I do. Just one zubscriber. If the person used an anonymous mailer, how does subscriber #2 (god, but those "z"s are annoying) know what domain the message came from? Doesn't seem to be very anonymous. >I have not mentioned this fact to member #2, for a couple of reasons: > >1. I do not care to get involved in an issue between two zubscribers off >the list. > >2. Protecting the privacy of zubscriber #1 (the suspected hate mailer). > >What would you do? If the hate message was in some way related to the list's topic, then I would send a message to the list condemning such actions, but not naming any of the participating parties (suspected or otherwise). I'd also request that anyone who receives such list-related hate messages forward them to you (off the list). And finally, that anyone who is found to be sending these messages will be banned from the list. (Of course, this is effective only if your list is not archived in any publicly-accessible manner.) For the most part, off-list discussions are not within the purview of the list owner. However, hate mail is another issue -- and if it is perceived to be associated with subscribing (and, of course, *posting*) to a particular mailing list, then the targets of the hate mail might eventually start to unsubscribe. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 1 23:55:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA00281; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA00257 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA10220 ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:59:37 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:40:12 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:59 PM -0800 3/1/98, Vince Sabio wrote: > For the most part, off-list discussions are not within the purview of > the list owner. Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility for this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and it's still the list's reputation that gets hurt ("don't go there, they'll flame your ass...") -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:24:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA27327; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:27:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net ([166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA27320 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:27:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA08414; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA15365; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:35:02 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:35:02 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list > subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the > list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility > for this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and > it's still the list's reputation that gets hurt ("don't go there, > they'll flame your ass...") As a general rule, I am not concerned with private disputes. Most classic "you are an idiot" style flame wars die off very quickly in private email when there is no audience to watch the exchange. I will not say that I would never get involved in a private disputes that spin off from a list discussion. If a private flame war were to escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar problems, I may offer assistance if asked. In the past five years, I have seen only one private dispute which required my attention. IMHO, a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:26:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA15486; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:03:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA15228 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:01:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04189 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:40:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17516 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:42:08 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:14 -0800 To: murr rhame , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:35 AM -0800 3/2/98, murr rhame wrote: >If a private flame war were to > escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar > problems, I may offer assistance if asked. Key words are "if asked". In general, if I'm asked to help, it's no longer minor. > IMHO, > a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. If a private discussion GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin is responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and the list's reputation follows that, too). If users get harrassed or abused off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does that say about the list? You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:38:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28445; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA28381 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA03783 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA28228 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:24 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:32:24 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. If a private discussion > GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin > is responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and > the list's reputation follows that, too). If users get harrassed or > abused off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does > that say about the list? > > You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone > can see. Thank you for correcting my typo. One can not wash their hands of a problem when one does not know that a problem exists. How would you get involved in an off-list conflict if the dispute was truly private? As I said, if a list related problem comes to my attention, I'll deal with it as needed. Most flame wars die off very quickly when there is no audience to watch the exchange. The need to prove, defend or redeem yourself in public is the primary fuel of flame wars. When you remove the "public" from the dispute, most flame wars end quietly for lack of interest. I have run various mailing lists for a long time. In my experience, off-list disputes which exceed very brief name-calling exchanges are extremely rare. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 12:54:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA01992; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:47:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA01974 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17314 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1998 20:59:29 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 20:59:29 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:56:59 -0600 To: Chuq Von Rospach , murr rhame , Chuq Von Rospach From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:38 AM 3/2/98 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >> IMHO, >> a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. > >Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. [...] > >You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. IMNSHO, you can certainly wash your hands of private disputes that result merely because subscribers got into a tiff. The fact that they happened to meet on your list, rather than a bar somewhere, is immaterial. On the other hand, if you have subscribers who deliberately and repeatedly use your list as a tool to facilitate harrassment, that's very different, and the admin should take action. I have found the former is usually adequately handled with a firm admonishment not to waste my time trying to get me to arbitrate private disputes. Indeed, I often insist that on-list arguments be taken off-line. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 13:25:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA07696; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA07474 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA32690 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:34 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:16:11 -0800 To: Dave Voorhis , Chuq Von Rospach , murr rhame From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >IMNSHO, you can certainly wash your hands of private disputes that result >merely because subscribers got into a tiff. The fact that they happened to >meet on your list, rather than a bar somewhere, is immaterial. > >On the other hand, if you have subscribers who deliberately and repeatedly >use your list as a tool to facilitate harrassment, that's very different, >and the admin should take action. IMHO, too often llist administrators use the first part to excuse themselves from ANY responsibility. There's a reason why bars hire bouncers. If a bartender ignores a fight in the parking lot because he's kicked them out of the bar or because "it's not my problem", he better hope they don't shoot or stab each other, or he'll spend a huge amount of time explaining things to the police. Ditto list adminning. Yes, it's perfectly valid to take a look, slap both sides silly for being idiots, and choose not to get involved. But the admin should choose to not get involved situationally -- and they better look and make sure it's a case where it doesn't warrant it. Too many admins do it the bass-ackward way of waiting until someone points out the blood in the parking lot. Admins have a responsibility to their list users here. Many want desperately to believe they don't. Yes, there definitely ARE times when the answer is to not get involved. In fact, it is the vast majority of times (or at worst, a generalized chewing out or come-to-Jesus talk with one side or both). But man, that better not be the default behavior, or you're just asking for problems. Look around and choose not to act. that's fine, but I see far too many lists with nobody at the helm, and gang fights going on in the parking lots. Unless you want to be known as running biker bars.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 15:38:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA03835; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA03658 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:35:45 -0800 (PST) From: merlin@netlink.co.uk Received: from th-pm00-26.ndirect.co.uk (th-pm00-26.ndirect.co.uk [195.7.225.26]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id XAA20843 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:42:55 GMT To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Keeping records, logging Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:41:45 GMT Message-ID: <353334e9.23553091@mail.ndirect.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone advise me how to go about logging things for a list? I've logged most things in the past, mainly because of hand-editing small lists. However, I find that as things become more automated, I get more administrivia stuff from whatever software I'm using etc. but I'm not au fait with what's best practice. Ideally, What types of things should be logged... How long should they be retained for? ***arghh, my h/d is being eaten up*** -- Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 19:45:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA27472; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:35:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA29255 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from myopic.cfar.umd.edu (myopic.cfar.umd.edu [128.8.132.76]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11260 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from portal.east.saic.com by myopic.cfar.umd.edu (8.8.5/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id SAA07209; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.8.42.107] by portal.east.saic.com via smtpd (for myopic.cfar.umd.edu [128.8.132.76]) with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 23:20:29 UT X-Sender: humour@mail.humournet.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980302145659.00c93770@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:26:17 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , Dave Voorhis , murr rhame From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:16 -0500 03/02/98, Chuq Von Rospach sent everyone: >Ditto list adminning. Yes, it's perfectly valid to take a look, slap both >sides silly for being idiots, and choose not to get involved. But the admin >should choose to not get involved situationally ::snip:: That's it, right there. The list admin needs to evaluate each case based on the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different places; I would tend to calibrate mine according to the what is best for the list, in general. We can argue over specifics until we're blue in the face -- but in each case, it comes down to the details of the individual situation. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Behind every successful man Behind every successful man is a is a surprised woman woman with expensive taste -- Maryon Pearson -- Vince Sabio From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 21:54:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA20025; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA19912 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:35:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05860; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:41:19 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:41:19 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Cyndi Norman cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: <199803020907.BAA15399@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your comments Cyndi. On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Cyndi Norman wrote: > This is a very tricky situation. Whether or not I'd suggest you intervene > would depend on what you mean by "hate mail." That term was used by the injured party, and I passed it along. > If the mail is threatening, harrassing, or illegal in any way, I would give > full cooperation. Ask to see a copy of it first. He did send me a copy, the worst word was "bugger" or something to that effect. It was nasty in tone, but not overly aggressive. This list member did recieve some truly pornographic email from a former list member (in a separate incident). In that case I stepped in, informing the flamer his foul language would not be tolerated, and he was banned from my lists. Seems this guy is a magnet. > If the mail is just plain mean and only happens once, I'd probably say, > work it out between yourselves (not that this is really possible with most > anon mailers). Yes, that is basically what I did. If it continues, you give good advice (giving out the information slowly). I am trying to prevent a situation where I give out an address and it turns out to be the wrong one. Now some innocent person is dragged into this. Who knows, I might be threatened with another law suit! -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:09:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA26137; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA18546 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05605; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:33:59 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:33:59 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 1 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Not all list admins feel this way. If a fight starts between list > subscribers, private or public, over a list topic or issue, then the > list is involved. I don't believe the admin can duck responsibility for > this. It just encourages the idiots to "go undergrounds", and it's I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list members. Of course on the list I keep everything in order, but I don't have a right to tell someone not to send nasty notes to someone else. I CAN ban them from my list, and I do when necessary. Too many crazies out there for me to defend the world from. I created a safe haven in the list, and it is there I feel responsible, not in the realm of private email, usenet, etc. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:15:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA26102; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21162 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA16382 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA06016; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:45:54 -0600 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:45:54 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: murr rhame cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, murr rhame wrote: > As a general rule, I am not concerned with private disputes. Most > spin off from a list discussion. If a private flame war were to > escalate to continued harassment, physical threats or similar > problems, I may offer assistance if asked. Well said, thanks. Since my list brought these people together, I am responsible to some degree. Grade school name calling is just that, however, and no reason to bring in the 'heavy hitters' such as postmasters and list admins. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:24:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA29374; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA29177 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06991; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:22:10 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:22:10 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Vince Sabio cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Dave Voorhis , murr rhame , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Vince Sabio wrote: > the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different > places; I would tend to calibrate mine according to the what is best for the > list, in general. ...And the same list admin will have different threshholds on different days. Catch me on a slow day and I just might jump in on a 'trivial' matter. > We can argue over specifics until we're blue in the face -- but in each case, > it comes down to the details of the individual situation. Amen. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:34:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA28576; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA28434 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06922; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:19:28 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:19:28 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Dave Voorhis , murr rhame , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, For the most part we agree, but there are a few points to discuss: On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > bouncers. If a bartender ignores a fight in the parking lot because he's > kicked them out of the bar or because "it's not my problem", he better hope > they don't shoot or stab each other, or he'll spend a huge amount of time > explaining things to the police. What is my parking lot? The entire Internet? Where does it end? My domain is the list proper. Anything outside the list I decide on a case by case basis. Often it spirals into a 'he said she said' in an enviromnent where I have no control, and no trail of proof. > make sure it's a case where it doesn't warrant it. Too many admins do it > the bass-ackward way of waiting until someone points out the blood in the > parking lot. I made that mistake once. I reacted too quickly. Looking back, I also reacted too harshly. Many situations sneak up quietly and are easy to miss. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:40:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA10155; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA10107 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0y9jh6-000ieIC; Mon, 2 Mar 98 20:52 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > That's it, right there. The list admin needs to evaluate each case based on > the situation. Different list admins will set their thresholds in different I don't know how it is for other women, but when I've been harrassed or flamed in private mail, it's worse for me than when it's done in public. Maybe it makes no real sense but somehow it's more frightening, like being harrassed in a dark alley when you're all alone. When it happens on a list, other people will sometimes help you. Even so, twice I've been chased off lists because someone would harrass me and there was no help. My work in electronic democracy evokes some strange reactions. If cyberspace hadn't been so important to me for the potential I see in it, I'd have given it up for the meanness in it. I have more experience now and could deal with it better if it ever happened again. But when you evaluate a case, remember that some gentle people will quit rather than complain and a little help is really needed. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 2 22:46:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA24843; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA24809 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06589; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:02 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:04:02 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: murr rhame , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Key words are "if asked". In general, if I'm asked to help, it's no > longer minor. Perhaps your subscribers are more thick skinned than some of mine? I am sometimes CC'd on rather trivial matters, because the injured party likes to bring me in to give the other guy a lashing. > > IMHO, > > a list manager should get involved in minor private scuffles. > > Murr meant "should not get", but he's wrong. I took Murr to have that meaning as well, but I don't think he is wrong. > If a private discussion > GETS to the list admin, it's rarely minor any more, and a List Admin is > responsible for the things that happen because of the list (and the > list's reputation follows that, too). I try to look at each case individually. Dejanews can tell you a lot about someone's online presence. I admit that if someone has a history of being a jerk I am faster to react. List reputation is a whole different matter. I take pride in the lists I run, so of course try to do everything possible to make sure the word out on the net is positive. Unfortunately, if that includes hand holding every insulted list member my efforts will fail. My lists see 200-400 messages a day in total. Often when a problem crops up I have to search the archives and figure out exactly what happened. Factor in the private emails, and drawing a just conclusion is often a time consuming affair. > If users get harrassed or abused > off your list by some dweeb via private e-mail, what does that say > about the list? More to the point, what does it say about that person? He is responsible for his actions, not me. Of course I do have some obligation, but I don't feel it as strongly as you. I help out when time permits and the situation warrants it. Often I gather contact information (whois, postmaster@, etc.) and suggest they contact the admins on the other side. I realize that is passing the problem along, but at least then the admin will be dealing with one of his own users. > You can't wash your hand of it just because it's not where everyone can see. True Chuq, very true. I also can't drop everything each time Joe Blow in Brazil calls Joe Shmoe in Albany a 'red nosed pug.' I expect the subscribers to do everything they can to work it out, then contact me when it gets out of hand. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 00:23:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA16954; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA16891 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:26:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA09015; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:31:37 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:31:37 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well Chuq in a perfect world I would have time for everything. The net is growing by leaps and bounds, with more novices than ever before. I do spend a lot of time on my lists, but they are not my only concern. You are a paid list professional. I am one guy with a home brewed Linux box and an ISDN line, and other time demanding business concerns. Does this mean I can't host excellent lists? I say not. Does it mean I won't have time to pursue every last cat fight that spawns from my lists? Yes it does. On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list > > members. > > Then I'd argue you don't have time to run the lists properly. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 00:56:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06923; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA06850 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17056 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:02:06 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:47:35 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:40 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > Your standards are very high. I hope you don't fall. If I do, it won't be for lack of trying. My users deserve no less, Mitch. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 01:54:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA02483; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:32:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA28126 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08916 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:18:52 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:14:30 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:31 PM -0800 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > Well Chuq in a perfect world I would have time for everything. In a less than perfect world, we don't take on responsibilities we can't fulfill. > You are a paid list professional. At work, yes. At home, no. And I run a large number of lists in both places. I put my money where my mouth is, Mitch. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 01:57:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA03527; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA03228 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA10431; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:40:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 02:40:13 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > In a less than perfect world, we don't take on responsibilities we > can't fulfill. Oh come on Chuq. Are you saying I am not a responsible list owner because I don't baby sit as much as you do? > > You are a paid list professional. > > At work, yes. At home, no. And I run a large number of lists in both > places. I put my money where my mouth is, Mitch. Hmm. Well I am not sure where my money is. I do know that many people enjoy and benefit from my lists. I do know that people write to me thanking me for my efforts. I do know that I am glad to be giving something back to the Internet community. Your standards are very high. I hope you don't fall. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 05:26:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA10558; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA10385 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 05:19:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA05229 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA15379 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:49 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:49 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Marilyn Davis wrote: > I don't know how it is for other women, but when I've been harrassed > or flamed in private mail, it's worse for me than when it's done in > public... Sexual harassment is a case where I would offer assistance. I have not been asked for help by any woman who has been harassed. > Even so, twice I've been chased off lists because someone would > harrass me and there was no help... If you asked the list admin for help and none was offered, the admin was wrong. Within fairly broad limits, any uncivil action by a list member which drives another subscriber away should be of concern to the listowner. Ignoring bullies on or around a mailing list is not a sane option. BTW: Mail from GreatCircle is lagging again. I'm seeing a lot of responses to emails I haven't received yet. Also, I sent a post 13hrs ago which has not echoed back from the list yet... It will probably pop up in a few days after this thread has died down. ;-) - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 08:24:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA26957; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA26836 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16169; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:55 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:51:55 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well Chuq, I think this thread has gone astray. I respect your integrity, and subscribed to Colorsync-Users to get a taste for your style of administration (I assume you are the admin on that list). I just bought a scanner, so the timing is perfect. On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > My users deserve no less, Mitch. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 08:54:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA18099; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:29:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA17875 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (hillman@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with SMTP id KAA27204; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:32:22 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Hillman To: Mitchell Leben cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Automobili: 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L Organization: Sprint Paranet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote: > You are a paid list professional. I am one guy with a home brewed Linux > box and an ISDN line, and other time demanding business concerns. Does > this mean I can't host excellent lists? I say not. Does it mean I won't > have time to pursue every last cat fight that spawns from my lists? Yes it > does. And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? You can't stop one party from mailing the other. You can't change the opinions of the parties involved ( although you can try ). All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. -- D a v i d H i l l m a n hillman@enteract.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 09:54:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA06734; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA06685 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:49:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21153; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:23 -0600 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:53:23 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben To: Dave Hillman cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Hillman wrote: > And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to > resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? You > can't stop one party from mailing the other. You can't change the > opinions of the parties involved ( although you can try ). Often they just need someone to share their pain, and agree the other guy is a jerk. I am more likey to talk to the person on the receiving end, because you are right, what can I tell the other person? Play nice or else? > All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. I usually have a round of emails with the (injured) person. Once they see that I agree with them, their urgency diminishes. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:04:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA16322; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA10786 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17300 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:15:29 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:12:26 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Dave Hillman From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:53 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: >Play nice or >else? That's a great start, yes. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:10:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06216; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA06150 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:01:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14628 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:07:11 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:05:14 -0800 To: Dave Hillman , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Mitchell Leben , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any >> of my other users down the road. > > Obviously, but this will have absolutely no effect on the current >dispute the users are having, via private mail. Actually, I find this isn't not true. First, getting shaken by the neck and reminded that they ARE responsible for what they say does wonders to many of these folks. And in many of the cases, I can get them yelling at me instead of the poor other person, and at least we get the nastiness sent in a direction that's able to deal with it. And yes, I *do* consciously try to get the fight moved in my direction in some cases. >And even that is useless, since a motivated >trouble-maker can get a new address from anywhere, free. And how often does that happen? do we not try anything because the worst case is we might fail? That seems to be the attitude. > My point is there may be many things you can do, but you do not have >any 'power' in this situation. You may be able to ally yourself with >someone in power, say his/her administrator, but that is different. And your point seems to be because those powers have limitations, you might as well not bother. Me, I'll do everything I can, realizing I might not succeed. But funny, in most cases, I do. And in cases where maybe I fall a bit short, I make things less bad. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:24:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA05798; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA28247 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:12:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from enteract.com (hillman@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with SMTP id NAA20336; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:19:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:19:54 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Hillman To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: Mitchell Leben , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Automobili: 1991 Alfa Romeo 164L Organization: Sprint Paranet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any > of my other users down the road. Obviously, but this will have absolutely no effect on the current dispute the users are having, via private mail. Also, you have to determine who is the 'idiot'. And even that is useless, since a motivated trouble-maker can get a new address from anywhere, free. > And I can go raise a stink with HIS admins > if he won't back off and go away. And you'll be amazed at how much more of > a reaction you get from a postmaster when the list owner comes complaining > than when it's two users. Exactly as I said, you can go to his or her administrators. > Or I can moderate the situations. Or I can offer advice. Or... Or.. Or... > There are lots of things within my power and purview. My point is there may be many things you can do, but you do not have any 'power' in this situation. You may be able to ally yourself with someone in power, say his/her administrator, but that is different. > I can, most importantly, act as a third party to help get this thing > SOLVED. I don't care about the details how -- those differ from case to > case. But the important thing is to work to get the fight stopped before > someone gets seriously hurt, not stand by and go "well, it's on the > sidewalk, not on my property, so technically, I'm not involved". Certainly if you can talk sense into the participants, that would be a good thing. My point is that two people who cannot resolve a dispute, or agree to disagree via private mail are extremely unlikely to be swayed by impartial moderation. As with your fist-fight example, all you can do is hope to talk down the conflict, or call the police ( administrators ). You are not a parent, you cannot send the respective parties to their rooms, and you shouldn't try. 'Play nice or else' is fine, but you better have an else. -- D a v i d H i l l m a n hillman@enteract.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 12:33:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA05278; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA05167 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.219.12.172] (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA31682 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:28 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:27:53 -0800 To: Dave Hillman , Mitchell Leben From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Chuq Von Rospach , Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:32 AM -0800 3/3/98, Dave Hillman wrote: > And more to the point, let's say for argument that you *do* wish to >resolve this private dispute between list members? What can you do? I can kick the idiot off my list, so at the least he won't be annoying any of my other users down the road.And I can go raise a stink with HIS admins if he won't back off and go away. And you'll be amazed at how much more of a reaction you get from a postmaster when the list owner comes complaining than when it's two users. Or I can moderate the situations. Or I can offer advice. Or... Or.. Or... There are lots of things within my power and purview. > All you could do would be to file a complaint with their administrator. I can, most importantly, act as a third party to help get this thing SOLVED. I don't care about the details how -- those differ from case to case. But the important thing is to work to get the fight stopped before someone gets seriously hurt, not stand by and go "well, it's on the sidewalk, not on my property, so technically, I'm not involved". -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:09:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA01408; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from rosa.deliberate.com (deliberate.com [206.86.16.103]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA01259 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by rosa.deliberate.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #37) id m0yA1hp-000iewC; Tue, 3 Mar 98 16:06 PST Message-Id: From: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:06:41 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for your suggestion, Ronald. In fact, it was by threatening to filter someone that made him stop. In the end, he became somewhat of an ally and made good suggestions for eVote which I have implemented. Finally he got angry at me for not implementing the bad suggestions and left my lists. Whew. And thank you Ray: > I also understand your reaction. However, why can't you just "ignore" such > harrassment. I mean, the person doesn't know you. They don't know where Yes. I'm better at it now. For a newcomer, the line between cyberspace and the physical space isn't so clear. I would become afraid of my mailbox, which is in my computer, which is in my bedroom. I was afraid to come home a few times. I have so little unpleasantness in my little life, I wasn't geared for it to appear here. But actually, the other list I left was a list of people I do know. We know each other because we attend the same music camp in the summers. It's a long story, this one. But I won't be on the same list with this one man. He hates me so much, not just for electronic democracy but also because I have stood against him and for children's rights at camp. He takes every opportunity to degrade me and my software without any regard for truth, or even relevence to the conversation. Because of the politics of the group, i.e., he is powerful, I host the lists for them but I'm not a member. They just run amuk and I don't care. > you live. They don't know what you look like. They don't have your phone > number. Just delete their messages and ignore them. Why do you let them > bother you? It hasn't happened in a long time from strangers. Maybe there's enough electronic democracy happening that people don't attack me? Also, by now, I have people who will join a list for me and defend me if I ask. Thanks for listening to my tales. * Marilyn * * * Marilyn Davis, Ph.D.-------------- * ---- eVote - online polling | * software for email lists: 3790 El Camino Real, #147 * * eVote-info@deliberate.com Palo Alto, CA 94306 USA * * (650) 493-3631 ------------- * * -------- marilyn@deliberate.com ------- * http://www.deliberate.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:24:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA25854; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA25814 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (sendmail@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with ESMTP id OAA20390; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by flatland.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id OAA28526; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:57 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:41:55 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: Mitchell Leben cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Mitchell Leben wrote: In approximately a forty-eight hour period I received some fourteen different messages from this Leben, who no doubt loves to read his own messages and finds it necessary to foist his private exchanges on the entire list. Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular member who is acting out? Ted Smith Denver From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 16:24:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA17312; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:14:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16975 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 15:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA03623; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA06271; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:21:19 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: merlin@netlink.co.uk Subject: Re: Keeping records, logging In-Reply-To: <353334e9.23553091@mail.ndirect.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 merlin@netlink.co.uk wrote: > Could someone advise me how to go about logging things for a list? > I've logged most things in the past, mainly because of hand-editing > small lists. However, I find that as things become more automated, > I get more administrivia stuff from whatever software I'm using etc. > but I'm not au fait with what's best practice. > > Ideally, What types of things should be logged... How long should > they be retained for? ***arghh, my h/d is being eaten up*** On most of my lists, the listproc is set up to automatically archive all distributed posts. I keep a backup copy of the subscriber list, the welcome file and the information file. Random bounces are discarded as they come in. Short term, I save a few bounces which may require special attention. I save selected posts and private emails on list policy issues along with some posts from potential trouble makers in special folders. Most of my clerical type email is only kept in my sent-mail folder. My sent-mail folders are kept in one month blocks and are discarded after two months. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 17:11:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA15463; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from hilda.sci.usq.edu.au (hilda.sci.usq.edu.au [139.86.144.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id RAA15367 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14615 invoked by uid 205); 4 Mar 1998 01:07:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19980304010749.14614.qmail@hilda.sci.usq.edu.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 X-Face: VBG60|k'4FzQAk.lEL//A=jDc@.*^5c^^(#755qSb~E~lhP7%JOW!_)Oauu?Y(|)0Xn|UBK Wb$c5EvA>x<^g&TNFNLS9}\FDFw{F,b8%u%>Xb_2}4b}p X-PGP: RSA/---/--- 1024/49D16ABD 1997/11/04 X-PGP: RSA/---/--- 7D 43 B4 CC 96 8B 51 14 B8 28 ED 99 B5 6F 21 4B X-PGP: ---/DSS/--- 1024/6501F2F1 1997-11-04 X-PGP: ---/DSS/--- 7D65 5882 B458 4B1B E2CA F62E 99CE 9009 6501 F2F1 X-PGP: ---/---/D-H 2048/E81EAB5A 1997-11-04 X-PGP: ---/---/D-H 2161 455C 0E5A D467 D538 FBEF BB2F 3B73 E81E AB5A Organization: The University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba X-Disclaimer: views expressed do not even purport to represent the University X-URI: http://www.sci.usq.edu.au/staff/vance/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: unrequested subscription In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 03 Mar 1998 12:05:14 -0800. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 11:07:49 +1000 From: Christopher JS Vance Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number of mailing lists at [dispatch.]cnet.com. I note that their whois entry includes no personal names, and wonder if they have a reputation as a spamhaus. (i.e., are they the scum who did it, or is it somebody else who is out to get me?) I don't know where my address was harvested from. -- Christopher From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 20:17:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA04472; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:35:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA04272 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:34:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id UAA07068 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:41:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803040241.UAA07068@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: unrequested subscription Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:41:29 -0600 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 3/3/98 7:07 PM, Christopher JS Vance wrote... >Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number >of mailing lists at [dispatch.]cnet.com. I note that their whois >entry includes no personal names, and wonder if they have a >reputation as a spamhaus. (i.e., are they the scum who did it, or is >it somebody else who is out to get me?) Um, well, C|Net is a highly-placed Internet media outfit. I doubt they go around trying to spam people. It's just that their lists don't require confirmation, and someone else was out to get you and used their lists. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 20:24:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA08518; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from blackhole.dimensional.com (blackhole.dimensional.com [208.206.176.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08392 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (sendmail@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by blackhole.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with ESMTP id UAA13514; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from flatland.dimensional.com (tedsmith@flatland.dimensional.com [208.206.176.24]) by flatland.dimensional.com (8.8.8/8.8.nospam) with SMTP id UAA20152; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:16 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:04:16 -0700 (MST) From: Theodore M Smith To: Dave Voorhis cc: Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Voorhis wrote: > At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: > > > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there > >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular > >member who is acting out? > > Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an > entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in > private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. Ted Smith Denver From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:24:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08514; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:27:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08413 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20334 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:56 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:08:45 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:51 AM -0800 3/3/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > and subscribed to Colorsync-Users to get a taste for your style of > administration (I assume you are the admin on that list). My machine, but each product list is run by someone out of the product group, so I get called in only if they run into things they don't feel they can handle, at least on the content end. I keep the technical stuff running smoothly and deal with system level issues. Seems to work well. Given how many lists there are these days, and where we hope to be in six months, there's no way any one person can micromanage everything. More of my job these days is on building systems for others to use, and trying to deal with futures issues. I'm working on stuff now that people will want later, so a big part of my job is getting stuff implemented before people know they need it, and looking at where all of these environments are going. I'm not just running lists, but trying to define what lists will be down the road (or more correctly, communications infrastructures. Lists are just a part, and not necessarily the key piece, but one of a number of useful tools). -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:39:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA10032; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09984 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA11561 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17760 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:02 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA01885 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:01 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803040543.XAA01885@celery.tssi.com> Subject: When to invoke sanctions (was: privacy thread) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:43:00 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in > forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of > messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on > a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. I don't think 14 messages in 48 hours is necessarily an offense that warrants the 'death penalty' on a list, even this one. I think all of us have seen users get carried away and overpost, but whether this is by the force of their convictions or the exhiliration of seeing their prose in print isn't particularly relevant. I cannot honestly remember sufficient posts from one user to reach my own pain threshhold for this list, but I will also admit to having not read or at best briefly scanned quite a few posts in the thread in question. (And it wouldn't surprise me if Chuq has posted about that many times over the same time period, though I hasten to add I am NOT suggesting Chuq has been overposting, it's that he's taking one side of a rather spirited discussion, something this list has happen every now and then, alternating with periods of inactivity.) In any event, assuming some overly busy poster flooded my list, I would take one or more of the following actions long before I'd boot the poster off: write the individual and suggest he/she cool it, post a general warning to the entire list and suggest that EVERYBODY cool it, or put the user in read-only status for a while. If the posts have at least SOME marginal relevance, I'm much more inclined to be tolerant in my choice of sanctions, my flash point for totally irrelevant postefs (and my choice of sanctions) is a whole lot different. And in the case of a spammer who sneaks through my safeguards, I just quietly delete the miscreant and take whatever steps I can to make sure THAT particular person/domain never darkens my door again. I will, on occasion, offer an apology to my subscribers for the intrusion.) To me, the list manager HAS to be the voice of reason and calming influence on a list, not the chief hothead. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 3 22:39:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08445; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08395 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20338 ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:36:58 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:09 -0800 To: marilyn@deliberate.com (Marilyn Davis), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:06 PM -0800 3/3/98, Marilyn Davis wrote: > Yes. I'm better at it now. For a newcomer, the line between > cyberspace and the physical space isn't so clear. I would become > afraid of my mailbox, which is in my computer, which is in my bedroom. > I was afraid to come home a few times. I have so little > unpleasantness in my little life, I wasn't geared for it to appear > here. And for people wondering why I tend to take such a hard line about this cr?p, here's why. I have a good friend who was so abused that he took himself off the internet. I won't have that happen on *my* shift, not if I can help it. I happen to like looking at myself in the mirror, and I like thinking that I've done everything I can to help those who aren't able to take care of themselves, especially if I'm responsible for the situation that got them into the trouble in the first place. I've seen too many lists ruined by the one or two bullies and a list admin who, in the name of "free speech" or simple absenteeism or whatever, let those couple of people drive everyone else away through harrassment, abuse or simple boorish nastiness. I know my admin style bothers some folks, but I do reader surveys, and most of my users appreciate it. I don't believe that freedom of speech belongs only to the loudest and most aggressive, and *someone's* gotta stand up for the people on the list that get intimidated by the loud and noisy's -- and if that's not the list admin, who? I don't accept the doctrine of the tyranny of the few: that the people willing to bully or scream their way through every discussion should decide what can be said and who says it, here's a hint: if you allow the @ssh*les to drive all the good people away from the list, all you have left are the @ssh*les. And I find they aren't a lot of fun to talk to. they're not who I run lists for. > Maybe there's > enough electronic democracy happening that people don't attack me? You also come across as being able to take pretty good care of yourself, Marilyn. And most of these people are, at bottom, hopelessly coward cravens. And they go pick on people they know they can cower. This is one reason why I consciously play up my bad-cop hard-ass List Mom persona. Not because I particularly like it, and especially not because I *am* it, but because I'm playing Alpha Male mind games on the dweebs. If I can keep them from starting their cr@p in the first place by having them realize I'll step on their face, then I don't actually have to do much stepping. And yes, it rubs some people the wrong way, but it works (for me). As long as I don't start taking myself too seriously. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 00:33:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA06914; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id AAA06899 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 00:02:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from decipher.com (rothko.decipher.com [209.49.157.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA06323 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 05:31:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.49.157.141] (dalem.decipher.com [209.49.157.141]) by decipher.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12963 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dale@rothko.decipher.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:38:47 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dale Maurice Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Help. I'm kinda clueless on this one, after looking at the problem for a week I just can't figure it out. Basically my list users are all getting messages twice. This began to occur after I moved the lists to a different machine within the same domain space. I am confused.. any clues where to look? thx, dale From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 02:50:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA04742; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:46:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id CAA04688 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:45:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 17567 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1998 10:50:50 -0000 Received: from flyingfish.armchair.mb.ca (HELO flyingfish) (198.163.115.26) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 4 Mar 1998 10:50:50 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980304044921.0072984c@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 04:49:21 -0600 To: Theodore M Smith From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users Cc: Mitchell Leben , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:04 PM 03/03/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: >On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Dave Voorhis wrote: > >> At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: >> >> > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there >> >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular >> >member who is acting out? >> >> Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an >> entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in >> private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? > > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in >forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of >messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on >a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. Color me dense, but I'm still not getting it. Is your complaint about fourteen messages posted by Mitchell Leben to List-Managers? Your comment, "Can the list owner do something about Leben...[?]" implies this. Or was that a typo, and you meant to say, "Can the list owner do something about it, Leben?" in reference to an issue you were discussing with Mr. Leben? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 14:52:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA15213; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA11561 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from beltway.cd.com (beltway.cd.com [204.217.30.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21793 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:40:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bif.cd.com by beltway.cd.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA11974; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:37:02 -0600 Received: by bif.cd.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20423; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:35:51 -0600 From: richardm@cd.com (Richard Masoner) Message-Id: <199803041535.JAA20423@bif.cd.com> Subject: When to invoke sanctions (was: privacy thread) (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:35:51 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In any event, assuming some overly busy poster flooded my list, I would > take one or more of the following actions long before I'd boot the poster > off: write the individual and suggest he/she cool it, post a general warning I own a list with a number of users who are unable to sort their email (because they use Juno or AOL, or because they don't want to spend the five minutes it takes to configure this feature in whatever MUA they use). They also might have restrictive quotas or just have a low tolerance for "long" download times on their email. They might check their email once every couple of days or so. I also have users who are connected directly to the net and have biff notification when mail comes in from the list. I do need to remind these users on occasion to consolidate posts or even to abstain if it's not all that important. The threshold is on my list is maybe 6 posts per day, but that's because of the nature of the subscribers -- many of whom are Juno or AOL users. One would hope that members of a list-managers list would be able to adequately manage their email so that 14, 50, or even a hundred or more messages per day aren't overly burdensome. (I typically receive 150+ emails per day. procmail is able to handle 80% of that. I spend maybe an hour and a half per day reading and responding to email. Isn't software beautiful? :-) ) The "cool it" reminders are always very friendly. Advocating banishment for an overly active poster seems somewhat harsh. Richard Masoner From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 16:20:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA04185; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA04177 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 16:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA05868; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:16:10 -0600 (CST) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Here's a completely useless bounce Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 04 Mar 1998 18:16:09 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 57 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.46/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This is probably the most completely useless bounce I have ever seen. Note that they don't provide a proper To: header, so my site shows up even though the bounce was generated elsewhere. Note the complete lack of any failure information; no reason, no address, nothing. Note the brokenness in their Received: header (no domain name, ESMTP id of 0, confusion between the envelope recipient and the envelope sender). "MailMax 2.000"? Whoever makes this wonderful garbage? I tracked this bounce back to netopia.net and promptly removed all subscribers from there. Let's see if postmaster@netopia.net responds to my complaint. - J< --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:38:54 -0600 (CST) From: MAIL-DAEMON@hpc.uh.edu Message-Id: <199803042338.RAA05162@sina.hpc.uh.edu> Subject: (None) -- 8< -- 8< -- [ Original Message As Follows ] -- >8 -- >8 -- Received: from gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (gizmo.hpc.uh.edu[129.7.102.31])by MAINSERVER(MailMax 2.000) with ESMTP id 0 for owner-type-o@hpc.uh.edu; Wed, 04 Mar 1998 18:26:51 -0500 EST Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (sina.hpc.uh.edu [129.7.3.5]) by gizmo.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAE09454; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:09:02 -0600 Received: by sina.hpc.uh.edu (TLB v0.09a (1.20 tibbs 1996/10/09 22:03:07)); Wed, 04 Mar 1998 17:33:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from servidor.unam.mx (redvax1.dgsca.unam.mx [132.248.104.4]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05083 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from oubliete@localhost) by servidor.unam.mx (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08192; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:54 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 17:33:53 -0600 (CST) From: [censored by JLT] To: Type-o Subject: [censored by JLT] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-type-o@hpc.uh.edu Precedence: list Reply-To: type-o@hpc.uh.edu X-Majordomo: 1.94.jlt7 [message censored by JLT] -- Don't look stupid! Check the archives: To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe type-o" in the body of a message to majordomo@hpc.uh.edu. Report all problems to type-o-owner@hpc.uh.edu. -- 8< -- 8< -- [ Original Message End ] -- >8 -- >8 -- --Multipart_Wed_Mar__4_18:16:09_1998-1-- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 4 21:34:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09064; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from spock.leben.com ([198.64.225.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08753 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mitch@localhost) by spock.leben.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00860; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:10:04 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:10:04 -0600 (CST) From: Mitchell Leben Reply-To: Mitchell Leben To: Theodore M Smith cc: Dave Voorhis , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ted you leave me scratching my head, and it isn't because of that white stuff. What is your issue with my posts? > > Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an > > entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in > > private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? Thanks Dave. > The reference (deleted in the reply) was to fourteen messages in > forty-eight hours, most of which seem to be not even an exchange of > messages but merely an infatuation with seeing something he'd said on > a list. I'd certainly boot this guy from my list. You've got to be kidding, right? "Not an exchange of messages?" Huh? There is one in every crowd. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 5 06:20:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA12181; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 06:06:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA05370 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:09:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk (ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk [128.98.1.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA11315 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 05:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27109 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:18 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2) by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 5 Mar 1998 13:06:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 9388 invoked by alias); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 7523 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7) by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 5 Mar 1998 13:06:17 -0000 To: Jason L Tibbitts III cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Here's a completely useless bounce Organization: IT Vulnerabilities Group, DERA Malvern, UK References: In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:06:17 +0000 Message-ID: <18949.889103177@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Jason L Tibbitts III writes: > "MailMax 2.000"? Whoever makes this wonderful garbage? It's probably: http://www.smartmax.com/mailmax.html # Announcing MailMAX 2.0, our new 32 bit multi-threaded internet eMail # server for Windows NT and Windows98. cheers, Chris -- Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 6 04:05:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA11442; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from tbinet.org (i75.driveninc.com [207.142.98.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA10994 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 03:48:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME [12.64.1.251] by tbinet.org (SMTPD32-4.03) id A24C1BFA024A; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 06:47:24 EST Message-ID: <34FFE2BE.5EF6@Qmail.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 03:49:18 -0800 From: Thompson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions [Re-posted] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------56DA600B4656" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------56DA600B4656 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all, I posted this four days ago, have not seen it on the list. Can anyone tell me what I did wrong in posting it the first time, or whether "glitches happen?" Thanks! --------------56DA600B4656 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34FC323D.6C98@Qmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:39:25 -0800 From: thom@Qmail.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit . Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions . =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Thanks for your responses about the subscription attack on the (very) democratic discussion list I maintain, which subscriber- group is about to make some important decisions in a group discussion and vote. I discovered who is behind the subscription attack that jumped subs from 450 to 480 in 15 days. (Usually only 15% of list members vote, so 30 votes could swing it.) He admitted he is behind the subscribes, but insists each of those subs represents a legitimate person in his local face-to-face "Twelve-Step" group who needs the fellowship of this list. He declined to unsubscribe them in exchange for my not needing to expose this problem in the group's leadership committee or on the list as a whole. If I can get the support of our leadership committee, I am inclined to unsubscribe the 28 addresses on the basis of the sheer obviousness of the silly "names," duplicates, fact that two are based on his own initials, etc. I also wish to report the facts of this subscription attack, to the four free email providers he has used, asking that they terminate these accounts based on my complaint that the accounts have been used in a subscription attack on this list, which constitutes abuse. A brief sample of the subs follows this message, for any who missed them on my last inquiry. Two questions for you. 1. Does anyone see something unethical about [a] unsubscribing the 28 addresses? [b] reporting the problem to the four email providers with a request that they terminate those accounts? 2. Is there something else I could/should do? I have no interest in punishing this person; only in taking the attack seriously (but not over-seriously), and prompting him to think twice before doing it again. Thanks again, very much. Sincerely, Tommi Thompson, elected List Maintainer mailto:thom@tbinet.org =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= xit xit 10 Feb 98 06:47 "xit xxx" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "vanessa buck" 20 feb 98 "pat darnell" 10 Feb 98 06:53 "pat block" 10 Feb 98 06:55 "why me" digest 16 feb 98 "why me" 23 feb 98 07:05:16 (initiated 20 feb 16:45) "chess master" 16 feb 98 "chess master" 23 feb 98 7:07 (initiated 20 feb 16:47) "sweet grass" 20 feb 98 "super woman" 23 feb 98 07:03 (initiated 20 feb16:42) --------------56DA600B4656-- From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 6 12:19:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA24341; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA23901 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:08:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18146 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA20700 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:27 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17734 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:23 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199803062007.OAA17734@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: newbie To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:07:23 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hi, all, I posted this four days ago, have not seen it on > the list. Can anyone tell me what I did wrong in posting it > the first time, or whether "glitches happen?" Thanks! E-mail is not a guaranteed delivery medium, it could have gone south en route, or gotten trapped in one of the filters at greatcircle. (Our list manager does what he can to rescue these posts from the filters, but he's only able to leap small buildings with a single bound and gave up stopping bullets with his teeth about two sets of teeth ago.) > 1. Does anyone see something unethical about > [a] unsubscribing the 28 addresses? > [b] reporting the problem to the four email providers with a > request that they terminate those accounts? Hey, it's YOUR list, do whatever you feel you need to do to keep order. Depending on who the providers are, they might not do diddly squat about the problem, assuming they even believe you. Welcome to the net. :-/ I tell people who complain about my list management style to set up their own list if they don't like mine. My list keeps growing. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 15:54:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA09174; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA08882 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12288 invoked by uid 500); 7 Mar 1998 23:27:35 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? References: From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Tue, 3 Mar 1998 21:21:09 -0800" Date: 07 Mar 1998 15:27:35 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > This is one reason why I consciously play up my bad-cop hard-ass List > Mom persona. Not because I particularly like it, and especially not > because I *am* it, but because I'm playing Alpha Male mind games on the > dweebs. If I can keep them from starting their cr@p in the first place > by having them realize I'll step on their face, then I don't actually > have to do much stepping. And yes, it rubs some people the wrong way, > but it works (for me). As long as I don't start taking myself too > seriously. Amen. I'll back up every word of this; it works. I do the same sort of thing on the occasional Usenet newsgroup, particularly ones I moderate, and just the knowledge that there's someone out there who isn't going to be bullied puts an end to a great deal of it. One has to be careful about getting a reputation as more harsh than one actually is, and like Chuq says it's vital that you don't take yourself too seriously while doing it, but when done properly it actually scares off most of the troublemakers before they start causing trouble. And that's the best kind of action one can take. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 21:36:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA01717; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA01701 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA24088 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 20:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA29865; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA14259; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:08 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:22:07 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: unrequested subscription In-Reply-To: <19980304010749.14614.qmail@hilda.sci.usq.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Christopher JS Vance wrote: > Somebody has subscribed me without my request or consent to a number > of mailing lists... I receive forged subscription requests on a regular basis. All of the lists at my site require confirmation before the subscribe request is accepted. Unfortunately, there are still many mailing lists which will accept forged subscriptions automatically, without confirmation. To the extent that the server manager has not taken steps to prevent forged subscriptions, they are partly responsible for your problems. I doubt the list admins are spammers or that they are the primary source of your troubles. Pranksters often choose victims at random or you may have ticked someone off. If you can contact the server manager and or the listowners, they may be able to track down the culprit. Unfortunately, some sites do not keep logs of subscription request headers. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 7 21:50:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA01681; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA01671 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 20:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from terminator2.xtra.co.nz (terminator2.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA18858 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 17:13:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from polemic (p49-m16-wn4.dialup.xtra.co.nz [202.27.178.241]) by terminator2.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA28254 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:20:33 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> From: "Rex Widerstrom" Organization: Polemic Political Consultants To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:20:11 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Filtering spam sent via smtp Reply-to: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net In-reply-to: <199803031247.EAA01098@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. They advised members to use their ISP's server to send mail -- they'll still be able to receive mail sent to their Geocities address. Apparently, though, many members can't do this - again because of ISP's worries about spam. Because (a) I think Geocities provide a worthy service and would like to help them out and (b) on principle, because spammers shouldn't be able to screw it up for the rest of us and (c) because practically, if everyone follows the lead of Geocities and starts shutting down their smtp servers the web will grind to a halt; I thought I'd ask this list if they can suggest any means, other than a shut down, by which Geocities could sort this out. I'll pass on any and all suggestions. My thanks in advance. Rex Widerstrom From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 8 02:34:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id CAA15904; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:33:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net ([166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15828 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 02:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id FAA13875; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA17090; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:21 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: Rex Widerstrom cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp In-Reply-To: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Rex Widerstrom wrote: > Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have > some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their > smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. I dont' run sendmail so I don't know the details of this procedure. On our mail system, the postmaster setup a list of trusted hosts, domains and IP addresses which we will relay. All other relays are filtered by default. This relay "guest list" only effects relay mail. We have other filter specs for in bound spam sent to our system rather than through our system via relay. I suspect that you can find details either on the the www.sendmail.org web page or in the O'Reilly sendmail book. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 8 19:35:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA03472; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:15:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from rgate.ricochet.net (rgate.ricochet.net [204.179.143.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA01161 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from knab.nmis.net (mg142-099.ricochet.net [204.179.142.99]) by rgate.ricochet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA18437; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:06:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803090306.VAA18437@rgate.ricochet.net> From: "Terry Knab" Organization: The Home Office To: murr@vnet.net, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:00:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp References: <199803040120.OAA28254@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> In-reply-to: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 05:34:21 -0500 (EST) > From: murr rhame > Reply-to: murr rhame > To: Rex Widerstrom > Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Re: Filtering spam sent via smtp > On Wed, 4 Mar 1998, Rex Widerstrom wrote: > > > Looking through some messages from the folks at Geocities (I have > > some sites there) I see they're going to be forced to shut down their > > smtp service because it's being abused by spammers. > > I dont' run sendmail so I don't know the details of this procedure. > On our mail system, the postmaster setup a list of trusted hosts, > domains and IP addresses which we will relay. All other relays are > filtered by default. This relay "guest list" only effects relay mail. > We have other filter specs for in bound spam sent to our system rather > than through our system via relay. I suspect that you can find > details either on the the www.sendmail.org web page or in the O'Reilly > sendmail book. > I'll be glad to help anyone who needs relay-protection help. Contact me privately and I'll be glad to assist. Terry Knab News Administrator Nyx.Net, Free Internet Access From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 12:50:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28028; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:15:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA12031 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:00:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA17006 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:07:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14066 ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:10:37 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:06:45 -0800 To: Mitchell Leben , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Cc: Vince Sabio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:33 PM -0800 3/2/98, Mitchell Leben wrote: > I don't have time to mediate all the potential problems between list > members. Then I'd argue you don't have time to run the lists properly. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 12:58:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA28419; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA29936 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:55:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8368 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1998 22:07:32 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 3 Mar 1998 22:07:32 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 16:04:10 -0600 To: Theodore M Smith , Mitchell Leben From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers?/privacy of list users Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:41 PM 3/3/98 -0700, Theodore M Smith wrote: > Can the list owner do something about Leben, or is there >any way to write a killfile of only messages coming from a particular >member who is acting out? Huh? Unless I'm missing some subtly clever point, all I've seen is an entirely on-topic discussion about list management vis-a-vis intervening in private disputes. This IS the List-Managers list, isn't it? Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 13:20:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA08630; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:13:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA08530 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13800 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1998 21:18:22 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 9 Mar 1998 21:18:22 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980309151434.00c99970@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 15:14:34 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Administrivia filters and List-Managers Cc: owner-list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980303160410.00e7f1d0@armchair.mb.ca> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm assuming the week-old messages appearing now are a result of messages being caught by the administrivia filters. Given that we're all list managers who SHOULD capable of aiming unzubzcribe requests to the right place, and given that we're inevitably going to write things that trigger the filters -- could we have the administrivia filters turned off, please? From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 14:05:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA15688; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:04:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA15671 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [208.25.58.237] (ppp1237.gotnet.net [208.25.58.237]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13895 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:04:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199803092204.RAA13895@iwebb.com> Subject: New List Member... Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 14:05:55 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I am new to this List. I joined because I would like to learn how to create and manage a Listserv. I have just recently started learning so I don't know all the terminology yet and I'm still learning the differeces of the different Listservs. Any help or information would be greatly apprciated! Thank you, Jenifer BTW - Where do I get the software so I can begin and could some of you e-mail privately to suggest what software is best or Mac. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please note and change my E-mail address: Old E-mail address - PJfam5@gotnet.net Thank you ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 15:05:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA23257; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:52:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA23213 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15205 invoked from network); 9 Mar 1998 22:57:23 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 9 Mar 1998 22:57:23 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980309165333.00c80570@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:53:33 -0600 To: Jeff Breidenbach , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: feedback on list archive service In-Reply-To: <199803050418.XAA05306@jab.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:18 PM 3/4/98 -0500, Jeff Breidenbach wrote: >I'd like to get feedback on a mailing list archiving service I just >pieced together. It's at http://archive.jab.org. I'm looking for >comments, criticism, general thoughts, people to try it out, etc. >Is this useful to anyone, or old hat? All feedback is appreciated. I'm sorry to say I'd be inclined to call it old hat. WWWW.Reference.com does all that, plus searching across multiple mailing lists and USENET newsgroups. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 15:12:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA18130; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA13268 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:03:54 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id BAA15399; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:07:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:07:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020907.BAA15399@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: mitch@leben.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from Mitchell Leben on Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:02:22 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: Privacy of Zubscribers? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is a very tricky situation. Whether or not I'd suggest you intervene would depend on what you mean by "hate mail." If the mail is threatening, harrassing, or illegal in any way, I would give full cooperation. Ask to see a copy of it first. If the mail is just plain mean and only happens once, I'd probably say, work it out between yourselves (not that this is really possible with most anon mailers). If the mail is just plain mean and happens many times, I'd put it in the category of harressment and treat with full cooperation. The fact that it is anon makes it more harressing, IMHO. An inbetween form of cooperation is to simply say "yes" to the question of do you have a user with the following domain. That way the reciever can at least complain to the proper postmaster. If the postmaster then asks you directly for the username, give it. If you think the anon mail is sigificant enough to do something about but don't feel comfortable giving your subscriber info to the reciever, you can contact the postmaster directly. Send them a copy of the mail(s) in question and ask them to look into it. Do be sure in any case that you look up the domain to get the upstream provider. If it's a virtual domain, sending to postmaster@domain will just get the sender of the anon mail (unless of course that's what you want). Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 9 16:01:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA19729; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA24871 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:03:19 -0800 (PST) From: thom@Qmail.com Received: from tbinet.org (i75.driveninc.com [207.142.98.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28774 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALNAME [12.64.1.202] by tbinet.org (SMTPD32-4.03) id A192E303B0; Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:36:34 EST Message-ID: <34FC323D.6C98@Qmail.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:39:25 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-WorldNet (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Newbie Asks Re: Ethics, Actions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk . Newbie Ask