From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 3 11:26:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26806; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA26719 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.170.33.127] (ppp-206-170-33-127.okld03.pacbell.net [206.170.33.127]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id JAA19390 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:58:26 -0800 Subject: New List From: "KHC" To: List Mgrs Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service provider, PacBell, does not offer this service. Does anybody know where I can start one? The intended audience will be architectural and design professionals. It may start off very small with a dozen or so subscribers for many weeks, and the maximum subscribers should be less than 500. I expect Majordomo would be the appropriate mailer. Price is a consideration. Are there any non-profit servers who may be able to support this? Thanks for any ideas. -Kenneth From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 3 23:52:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19325; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22399 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA13769 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:23:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803301526.IAA13937@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: (from woods@localhost) by ncar.UCAR.EDU (NCAR 12/5/96/) id IAA13937; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:26:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! To: murr@vnet.net (murr rhame) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:26:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "murr rhame" at Mar 28, 98 11:24:44 am From: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In my humble opinion, allowing unmoderated posts by non-subscribers > is insane. Hey, let's not be *too* judgmental here. I'd say this is *risky*, but not necessarily "insane". Maybe it's "insane" if the mailing list in question is advertised and well-known to the entire Internet, but we disabled the "lists" command in majordomo except for a couple of lists that are intended for the general public (and those lists *are* moderated) and disabled the expn command in sendmail. The reason we do this is that we have lots of users at sites that are very minimally on the air. The users do not necessarily know that if they subscribe from one workstation and post from another, the addresses don't match. We also don't want to moderate those lists, so we leave them open, conceal their existence as best we can outside the user community they are intended to serve, and acknowledge the risk we are taking. If and when a list of this type does get hit by spammers, we'll have to moderate it, but I assure you we are not insane :-) --Greg From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 4 00:05:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19312; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07250 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA16773; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00454; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: KHC cc: List Mgrs Subject: Re: New List In-Reply-To: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, KHC wrote: > I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service provider, > PacBell, does not offer this service. > > Does anybody know where I can start one? This is an outline of procedures for starting a new list from scratch... Some day I hope to flesh this out a bit. Suggestions for additions to this beginners guide are welcome. First, you need to decide what sort of list you expect to run: Announcement or discussion? Moderated or not? Private or public? Access restrictions? How many subscribers do you anticipate? Have you written a charter and policy? If you know nothing about the various mailing list software packages, start with these links: http://www.catalog.com/vivian/mailing-list-software.html ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/archive-servers/faq ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq http://library.ummed.edu/~naleks/mlmfaq/mlmfaq_toc.html Each software package has a support mailing list which deals with setup issues for that particular software. List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is NOT a software support mailing list. For many people, the best option is to use someone else's server which is already setup and is always online. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 4 03:51:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA19948; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 03:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA14215 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA36432 ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:07:56 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803301526.IAA13937@ncar.ucar.EDU> References: from "murr rhame" at Mar 28, 98 11:24:44 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:56:56 -0800 To: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods), murr@vnet.net (murr rhame) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:26 AM -0800 3/30/98, Greg Woods wrote: > Hey, let's not be *too* judgmental here. I'd say this is *risky*, but > not necessarily "insane". It's risky the way coming home and smelling gas, but deciding since it hasn't blown up yet we don't need the repairman is risky. Maybe you haven't been hosed by this yet -- but it's a matter of time and/or luck. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 18:49:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA26114; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA26083 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moose.ncia.net (moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25594 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from foote.ncia.net (ncia123n.ncia.net [207.141.176.123]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA27595; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:45:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Webbers Communications" To: archken@pacbell.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:51:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New List In-reply-to: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service > provider, PacBell, does not offer this service. > > Does anybody know where I can start one? Hi Kenneth, My internet marketing resources.txt file includes a number of providers of list management services, both free and pay-for. You can retrieve this file by sending the following e-mail to my autoresponder: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=resources.txt Another alternative would be to begin by running your mailinglist on your own computer using free-for-download Pegasus e-mail software. You can retrieve a tutorial I wrote on the subject that includes the URL for downloading the full-featured free software, at my own Pegasus e-mailer (yes it does autoresponders too) by sending the following e-mail: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=pegasus1.txt Hope this helps, Gary K. Foote mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com Webbers Communications http://www.webbers.com Web Design & Internet Marketing Since 1994 ------ FREE STUFF FOR INTERNET MARKETERS ------ Send the following e-mail to our autoresponder: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=webbers.info ----------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:03:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA22673; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22661 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11683 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id HAA24055; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id HAA22911; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:05 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: wmcguire@cybercom.net In-reply-to: <352a0768.9207331@mail.cybercom.net> (message from Wayne McGuire on Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:48:41 GMT) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wayne McGuire wrote on majordomo-users: > Microsoft is reportedly working on additions to > Windows that will include and greatly improve on > the best features of majordomo, listserv and > similar programs for managing mailing lists. This > new software will not only be fully HTML/XML > aware, but be substantially framed in XML. I > wonder if the majordomo community, and the > traditional Unix community in general, sees what > is coming. Do anyone have detailed information about this, especially in what ways Microsoft plans to improve? If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating systems, then the internet has a problem. What do you think about this? Is this a real danger? If so, what can be done against it? May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:06:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA21866; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA21846 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stp.ling.uu.se (strindberg.ling.UU.SE [130.238.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA23012 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from moberg.LING.UU.SE by stp.ling.uu.se (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28996; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:30:21 +0200 Received: by moberg.ling.uu.se (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22092; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Typhoon.bom References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Per Starback Date: 01 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: Vince Sabio's message of Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sometimes malicious people subscribe their victims to lots of mailing lists to mail bomb them. It seems like one of my mailing lists has for some time been used this way in a very consistent way, but I haven't seen anyone else mention this. Are other people not experiencing the same as I am? The subscription messages I receive all have the following in common: * They are forgeries that have claimed that they are sent from "Typhoon.bom". A typical received line looks like this: Received: from Typhoon.bom ([194.182.35.150]) by web2. (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA01190 for dcomics-REQUEST@strindberg.ling.uu.se; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:25:10 GMT * They are all phrased the same way with just two parameters changing: > Hi, > I am very interested in this mailing list and would like to > subscribe > My name is and my e-mail address is
> > Thank you, > > Has anyone else been the victim of this? I suspect it's not just one individual who is doing all of this, but that it is some "cool" program to mail bomb people circulating, but I'm not sure. Any leads? -- Per Starback "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" P.S. Yes, I know I should use a subscription mechanism with confirmation... From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:16:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA26071; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA26059 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quartz.nbnet.nb.ca (quartz.nbnet.nb.ca [198.164.200.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10309 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnetwork.nbnet.nb.ca ([207.179.148.139]) by quartz.nbnet.nb.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 607-42492U60000L60000S0) with SMTP id AAA7425 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:57:32 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980404135819.007125b0@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca> X-Sender: vnetwork@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 13:58:19 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert Vinet Subject: Subscribe/Unsubscribe Software? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi All, Could someone suggest a solution to this problem. This may be somewhat off topic, but I would appreciate your suggestions. I publish a web site - allECommerce - and now want add a weekly, one-way, weekly text-based email newsletter to subscribers. My problem is that I need some way of managing subscriptions. I could do this by filtering subscribe/unsubscribe email messages from my site into a special mailbox within Eudora, but I would have to manually manage this function. I would rather have this done for me without much intrusion. I have thought of subscribing to a free list bot but the ones that I have found add an ad to the message and there is little control over the subscriber list. (The site is not yet profitable and I don't want to limit my expenses at this point.) My question: Is there a software plug-in for Eudora that will perform this function for me? Alternatively, is there another solution where I could retain control of my subscribers list (I don't want to see subscribers spammed)? Regards, Robert Vinet allECommerce - The Navigational Hub of the Electronic Commerce Professional Internet-Based Electronic Commerce News, Resources and Business Strategy V-Networks, Inc. 527 Beaverbrook Court, Suite 205 Fredericton, NB Canada E3B1X6 mailto:robert.vinet@allEC.com Phone: 506.454.7145 Fax: 506.452.7610 ICQ# 6306414 AOL Instant Messenger: allECcom -------------------- http://www.allEC.com ---------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:16:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA21842; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA21822 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA14126 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:28:49 -0500 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:28:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0 Content-Type: text/plain Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and everyone else ignoring you? HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH your subscribers than against them. Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for many years. Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! Ed Woodrick EDCOM -----Original Message----- From: Todd Day [mailto:today@di.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 7:17 PM To: 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM' Subject: HTML-enabled mailing lists taboo_body << END /^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i END At first, I wanted to take this approach as well. Unfortunately, many subscribers are stuck behind e-mail gateways at some small companies where they can't change this kind of behavior (configured at the server). So I have written a series of scripts as a front end (I call it the anal.filter) that tries as hard as it can to look for plain text that is usually included in MIME-type messages. Not only does this solve the HTML problem, but it also at the same time takes care of the infamous WINMAIL.DAT enclosure. It then scrubs all the MIME stuff off before passing it into majordomo 1.93 (I also do things like "cartoonize" profanity, word wrap long messages, change =2A to '.', etc... I even have it take care of some particularly annoying common spelling errors!). It has certainly made my mailing lists a lot nicer to look at, and allows everyone to participate without much pain. -todd- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists

Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize = existing Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message = is pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of = a UUENCODE!

It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the = folks who are long time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that = many call so radically state-of-the-art, that you would have such an = archaic attitude. Don't you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going = around growling and everyone else ignoring you?

HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a = service to you list users, then you probably should start thinking = about how to work WITH your subscribers than against them.

Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will = read HTML, but at what percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for = those of you who are stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand = regular text messages, don't gripe and complain that the rest of us = decided to move on and leave you in the 60's. Plain text messaging is = on the way out. Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for = many years.

Lead, Follow, or get out of the way!

Ed Woodrick
EDCOM

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Day [mailto:today@di.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 7:17 PM
To: 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'
Subject: HTML-enabled mailing lists


taboo_body         = ; <<  END
/^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i
END

At first, I wanted to take this approach as = well.  Unfortunately, many
subscribers are stuck behind e-mail gateways at some = small companies
where they can't change this kind of behavior = (configured at the
server).  So I have written a series of scripts = as a front end (I call
it the anal.filter) that tries as hard as it can to = look for plain text
that is usually included in MIME-type = messages.  Not only does this
solve the HTML problem, but it also at the same time = takes care of the
infamous WINMAIL.DAT enclosure.  It then scrubs = all the MIME stuff off
before passing it into majordomo 1.93 (I also do = things like
"cartoonize" profanity, word wrap long = messages, change =3D2A to '.',
etc...  I even have it take care of some = particularly annoying common
spelling errors!).  It has certainly made my = mailing lists a lot nicer
to look at, and allows everyone to participate = without much pain.

-todd-

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0-- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:21:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA22657; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22630 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terminator2.xtra.co.nz (terminator2.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA05892 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from polemic (dialin140.strip.net.nz [203.96.135.140]) by terminator2.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA20610 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:58 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199804030502.RAA20610@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> From: "Rex Widerstrom" Organization: Polemic Political Consultants To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Odd bounce message Reply-to: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net In-reply-to: <199804020933.BAA12081@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone tell me what the following might mean in the header of a bounced message?: 554 - infinite loop in ruleset 3, rule 7 Sun Sol server - N-3.4 with ESMTP I've seen a few bounced headers, but this one's new to me. Thanks Rex Widerstrom Director, Polemic Political Consultants http://polemic.net List Manager 'Political Campaign Techniques' Mailing List ICQ# 7177996 From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:52:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA09719; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA09613 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA27161; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13639; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:44 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Norbert Bollow cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, wmcguire@cybercom.net Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Norbert Bollow wrote: > If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by > making MLM software widely available which easy to use but which > does not interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft > operating systems, then the internet has a problem. > > What do you think about this? Is this a real danger? If so, what can > be done against it? I am not usually a Microsoft basher. For the most part their software does what I want it to do with minimal fuss. On the other hand, MS mailers are some of the worst on the net. If they can not write a decent personal mailer, I doubt they will make much headway in the MLM market. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:11:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA14784; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA14765 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04078 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA19732 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:29 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA06061 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:27 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199804070253.VAA06061@celery.tssi.com> Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I > wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! If a message was _just_ in HTML, I might agree with that statement, but far and away the overwhelming majority of messages I see with an HTML component in them have all of the same content in a plain text component as well. So the overhead for HTML is often more than the actual message length, and net bandwidth is NOT an inexhaustable resource, especially to those of us who pay the bills for net access. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging > systems have been rich text for many years. Well, SOME have been. I have subscribers using PROFS on IBM mainframe systems, to say that their capabilities are limited is an understatement, even to a Unix fiend like myself. And I have seen cases of mail readers that CRASH because of HTML segments. There will come a time when HTML (or hopefully something _beyond_ HTML) will be sufficiently pervasive that it will make sense to change, but at this point, only about 30% of my list traffic is even in MIME format, and under 3% is in HTML, which is a far cry from universal acceptance. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:40:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA15238; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mem.bellsouth.net (mail.mem.bellsouth.net [205.152.96.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA15178 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.53.41.2] (host-207-53-40-161.mem.bellsouth.net [207.53.40.161]) by mail.mem.bellsouth.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19055; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:56:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.mem.bellsouth.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> References: <352a0768.9207331@mail.cybercom.net> (message from Wayne McGuire on Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:48:41 GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0500 To: Norbert Bollow , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Hooper Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: wmcguire@cybercom.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making >MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not >interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating >systems, then the internet has a problem. Err...where have you been? 8) We managed to filter the winmail.dat files, we managed to deal with the incomprehensible error messages from Exchange, we'll learn to adapt to or annihilate all new Microsoft schema. People do not subscribe to mailing lists to use their new Microsoft products. People subscribe to mailing lists to get information. If the Microsoft products get in the way of the information, then (presumably) people will abandon their bad proprietary sw and get good cooperative sw, in order to get the information they want. --Ken 68 Westy, Admin --type2-- The Volkswagen Bus Mailing List From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:52:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23502; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA23459 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12401 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1998 02:44:47 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 7 Apr 1998 02:44:47 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:40:11 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Dave Voorhis Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing >Internet messaging standards? I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the size of messages with no increase in value. Value is the key point. If HTML would actually make the average message more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except consume extra bandwidth (and make me squint because of your poor choice of font), then I could see the value of it. I have yet to see a message that actually benefitted from being in HTML. In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. Woodrick. Is there anything there that couldn't have been sent as plain text? Is there anything there that was enhanced by being in HTML? From the looks of it, the HTML tags in your message were entirely redundant. For that, the Internet should waste additional bandwidth? If some MTA's at least had the intelligence to shut off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed ANY font changes, bold text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it differently. Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them out. Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten by my HTML filters are thankful when I point out the problem. As soon as they turn the HTML "feature" off, it seems some of them like the fact that their messages trot through their modems a little more quickly once all those pointless tags are removed. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 21:07:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA29000; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA28940 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16372 ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:06:26 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Vince Sabio's message of Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:59:19 -0700 To: Per Starback , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Typhoon.bom Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:30 AM -0700 4/1/98, Per Starback wrote: > Are other people not > experiencing the same as I am? Not since I turned on subscription verification. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 21:20:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA27598; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA27413 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29181 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08160 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:04:49 -0700 To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:28:45 -0500. <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:04:48 -0700 Message-ID: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>, Ed Woodrick wrote: >Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet >messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I >wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! > >It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long >time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically >state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't >you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and >everyone else ignoring you? > >HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list >users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH >your subscribers than against them. > >Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what >percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are >stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't >gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you >in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging >systems have been rich text for many years. > >Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! I happen to be one of those ``grumpy old men'' who still bitches (mildly) when people send me mail or post to USENET news with the same bloody stuff replicated below in HTML-ized form, but even _I_ will admit that Ed Woodrick has made some pretty compelling arguments here. Perhaps most compelling for me personally is that I certainly do not want to be the last one on my block to throw away my buggy whips and move onto something new. I compliment Ed for having made the case so eloquently. Seriously. Separately however, I'd like to ask him to please refrain from posting any more redundant HTML to the list. Some folks, myself included, con- sider it just slightly rude. (1/2 :-) P.S. Ed pegged me exactly right... I use UNIX and yes, I confess that I _do_ still have those old love beads stashed way back in the back of the closet somewhere. Peace man. :-) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 22:51:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05900; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05752 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX V5.0) id 53; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009C452E.2BB90C45.53@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Odd bounce message Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net" 6-APR-1998 18:45:53.19 > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > CC: > Subj: Odd bounce message > On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:36 +1200, "Rex Widerstrom" said: "Rex Widerstrom" writes: > Can anyone tell me what the following might mean in the header of a > bounced message?: > > 554 - infinite loop in ruleset 3, rule 7 Sun Sol server - N-3.4 with > ESMTP > > I've seen a few bounced headers, but this one's new to me. > It sounds like they've got a bunged up sendmail.cf file. > Thanks > > > Rex Widerstrom > Director, Polemic Political Consultants http://polemic.net > List Manager 'Political Campaign Techniques' Mailing List > ICQ# 7177996 > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:03:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA01417; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA01396 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA08333 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:27:14 -0700 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA18788; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:27:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 21:27:10 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave wrote: > At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > >Internet messaging standards? > > I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest > versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the > size of messages with no increase in value. I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple plain text based. Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:37:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09305; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09102 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id WAA08804; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:04:11 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm certainly as entitled as anyone here to be a grumpy old man and UNIX bigot, having sent my first UNIX e-mail message in 1975, and posted my first Internet (ARPANET) mailing list message circa 1979, but the fact is that standards evolve, markets evolve, and there are good reasons not to remain tied to the lowest common denominator of the past. I used text-based UNIX mailers for 21 years before moving to a GUI-based POP client in 1996. Two years later, I find it remarkable that anyone would continue to use a mail program that does not fully support MIME or handle HTML gracefully. While the members of list-managers are a lot of old-timers, remember that (to use the words of Stephen King in his THE DARK TOWER series) "the world has moved on". Realistically, the way to get people to adopt the whizzy new technologies is to create content that requires them. In this case, that means rich-text mail messages, MIME attachments, etc. A couple of years ago, I would have whined about someone sending a (reasonably-sized) GIF or JPG image to a mailing list I was on; now it's (usually) a pleasure. It would be unfair to require support for these if the cost of participating was unreasonable -- but all you need for e-mail rich text and images is a standard mass-market PC or Mac, not particularly high-end, a color monitor, a 28.8K modem (or better) or LAN Internet access, and an up-to-date free or cheap mail program. That's not too much to ask. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:51:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA17257; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA01232 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: johnjohn@triceratops.com Received: from triceratops.com (triceratops.com [206.83.162.235]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19605 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21138 invoked by uid 100); 7 Apr 1998 05:33:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19980407053319.21137.qmail@triceratops.com> Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:33:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> from "Woodrick, Ed" at Apr 1, 98 09:28:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? Standards? What's the RFC that limits SMTP traffic to HTML? I seem to have forgotten it... > The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. Well, the message containing your email came to me in plain text -and- an HTML'ized copy. So taking a mail sample from an HTML'ized mail advocate (yourself), the overhead is over 100% of the actual message. > I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! Really? If I accept your comparison at face value, than all the more reason to not have HTML'ized messaging. mailing lists aren't the place for uuencoded binaries, unless they're created explicitly for that purpose. > It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long > time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically > state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't > you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and > everyone else ignoring you? Why did you send a text copy of this message? > HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list > users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH > your subscribers than against them. None of my subscribers have asked me to double the bytes received from my mailing lists while keeping the same content level. Speed, consistancy, and high signal/noise ratio is what's important to list users. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging > systems have been rich text for many years. *yawn* your assertions are meaningless to me. BTW, apologies to those who cannot read the VRML copy of this message. > Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! Again, I ask, why did you send a plain text copy of your message? The answer: so people will read your message instead of ditching it. Think about that for a bit... John -- John White Triceratops Admin johnjohn@triceratops.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:57:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA15507; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm2.deskmedia.com (dm2.deskmedia.com [199.199.147.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA15447 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dev@localhost) by dm2.deskmedia.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20124; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 02:28:07 -0500 Message-ID: <19980407022807.47872@dm2.deskmedia.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 02:28:07 -0500 From: Lawrence Weeks To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Cc: "Woodrick, Ed" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Once upon a time (Wed Apr 01), Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > Internet messaging standards? The point of a mailing list is to exchange information with other people, just the same as a web page. The web has standards, such as HTML, so everyone can communicate. A browser (or, if you're Microsoft, the operating system) parses HTML as a minimum cost of entry. However, this is not true of email. The bare minimum for email is plain old text. The point of a mailing list, in general, is to enable a large number of people to communicate with one another effectively. Why complicate things needlessly? What's the point? To send a message in a pretty color or font? Why, and at what cost? As I say to people who advertise their brand new heavily "optimized" for brand X browser web page, what's your goal? To showcase and promote a proprietary technology and limit your web page to less than half the web? Shouldn't your goal be to communicate effectively with the most people possible? This is the primary reason I reject all HTML email. It offers no real value on a mailing list, and unnecessarily complicates communications. Likewise, I reject email with attachments. If you want to make a nicely formatted document available, don't send it to a thousand people, of whom maybe 10% actually want to see it. Send a URL. But there's a very pragmatic side too: I don't want to archive it, back it up on tape, index it for searching, etc. Your message was over 6200 characters long, let's break that down. The plain text of what you actually wrote was ~ 1152 bytes. You quoted ~ 1143 bytes of the original message (I know, netiquette on quoting is archaic). And your HTML took up the rest, ~ 3756 bytes. So, of the 6K, only 1K or so was actually worthwhile. If everybody did the same, that's a lot of wasted bytes. Let's say the mailing list has 1000 subscribers, and 100 messages a day... that adds up really fast, on the delivery side, on the archival side, and what value does it really add? We can have fonts and colors and bold and italic text. Wow. Thanks, but no thanks. > HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list > users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work > WITH your subscribers than against them. Yes, educate them as to when it is appropriate to use the latest whiz-bang technology, and when not to. Just because you *can* send bloated HTML email, doesn't mean you *should*. I've never had a list member complain about not being able to send HTML email, and have had lots of them thank me for filtering it out. Larry -- Lawrence Weeks "Audaces fortuna juvat." dev@deskmedia.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 01:21:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA23383; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA23376 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 249 invoked by uid 500); 7 Apr 1998 07:58:33 -0000 To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: "Michael C. Berch"'s message of "Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:04:11 -0700" Date: 07 Apr 1998 00:58:32 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 40 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C Berch writes: > Realistically, the way to get people to adopt the whizzy new > technologies is to create content that requires them. In this case, > that means rich-text mail messages, MIME attachments, etc. A couple of > years ago, I would have whined about someone sending a > (reasonably-sized) GIF or JPG image to a mailing list I was on; now it's > (usually) a pleasure. Herein, I believe, lies the root of our disagreement. I've received lots of huge Framemaker attachments, big GIFs I cared nothing about, text marked up in formats that made it *harder* for me to read rather than easier, and other similar annoyances. I've received very few encoded messages where I actually cared about the encoded part enough to decode it, let alone wish it were decoded for me automatically. I find HTML text, properly rendered in a good browser that I've tweaked with my own preferences, *harder* to read than straight ASCII text. I *prefer* asterix markup to bold-face fonts, and _drastically_ prefer underline notation to italic fonts, because available bold and italic fonts suck for readability, and because screen fonts are normally small enough that if you try to do something fancy like putting them in italics, you render them incomprehensible. Any typographer will tell you that the necessary font size for readability is larger for an italic font than for a normal font. It's *very*, *very* hard to beat straight, ordinary 9x15 non-proportional X font for sheer readability on a computer screen. People seem very attached to markup languages without any knowledge of the HCI and human factors issues. (I'm not implying that about you, just about the discussion I've often read about the issue.) I'd be very interested in reading a defense of HTML text written by someone who does not consider it fundamentally obvious that bold-face is superior to *asterix* notation; until then, I have yet to see any defense written from a perspective I can share basic principles with. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 04:36:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA21486; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA21479 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA10565 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199804071115.GAA10565@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: mcb@postmodern.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:15:07 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Apr 6, 98 10:04:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Michael C. Berch" writes: > It would be unfair to require support for these if the cost of participating > was unreasonable -- but all you need for e-mail rich text and images is a > standard mass-market PC or Mac, not particularly high-end, a color monitor, a > 28.8K modem (or better) or LAN Internet access, and an up-to-date free or > cheap mail program. That's not too much to ask. > What you seem to be missing is that there are may types of lists. For job related lists, the subscribers may be receiving the list mail at their employer provided account, may be prohibited by company policy from using a modem connection and forced to read e-mail on a system that does not support HTML mail. Other lists may be targeted towards individuals who have very limited resources, e.g. my aids list for indiviuals who are HIV+. These folks need to use resources like Juno to subscribe to the lists. -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 10:53:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA10499; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA10302 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diffreithiant.demon.co.uk ([193.237.35.207]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2012733; 7 Apr 98 17:38 GMT From: Darren Wyn Rees To: Webbers Communications Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, owner-NEW-LIST@listserv.nodak.edu Subject: Re: New List Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:37:20 GMT Message-ID: <353a621e.7118199@post.demon.co.uk> References: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> In-Reply-To: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:51:18 -0500, "Webbers Communications" wrote in list-managers : I make the assumption here that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same gkfoote@webbers.com that is responsible for www.listex.com? Correct me if I'm wrong. I also make the assumption that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same gkfoote@webbers.com that mails me advertisements (spam, depending on one's point of view) every time I post to Marty Hoag's New-List List? Correct me if I'm wrong. (But I've got a neat collection of exactly the same canned response from gkfoote@webbers.com from every post to New-List List). >My internet marketing resources.txt file includes a number of=20 >providers of list management services, Gary, I had a bounce message from listex.com yesterday. I can't say I'm at all impressed. I followed the intstructions on your .txt template for adding my list to your listex.com website. =20 Can't you figure a way to stop sending auto-replies to everyone who posts to the New List List? (It's starting to peeve me after the twentieth canned ad. It also costs. It also piggybacks excessively on the service provided by New-List.). -- \/ Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk=20 -> PHONICS List for S/T/E/R/E/O/P/H/O/N/I/C/S Fans /\ http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/PHONICS/ =20 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 14:06:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA03374; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA03366 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id OAA12620; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:03:06 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers CC: Michelle Dick Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick wrote: > I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the > undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to > thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple > plain text based. > > Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for > not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded > color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Besides, the screen readers for blind users (for Windows and X) that I know of are easily configurable to ignore (or otherwise deal with) rich-text markup. (Otherwise how do you think they would cope with Web pages?) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:08:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11731; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA11685 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (lionet.wesley.OZ.AU [192.83.198.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05392 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanear.wesley.vic.edu.au ([192.83.198.167]) by lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA08810 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:35:55 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407144827.0080d880@wesley.vic.edu.au> X-Sender: kanear.staff.prahran.wesley@wesley.vic.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:48:27 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kersti Anear Subject: Web based subscriptions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm looking for a way to make subscribing to a mailing list REALLY easy. I've actually had people subscribe like this: subscribe listname Daisy Jones 115A Wimpole Street So, what I'm looking for is a script that will take any form I pipe to it and pull out the subscription and unsubscription requests to which ever mailing lists are chosen. Oh yer, I know NOTHING about Perl... To get an idea, I have set up something similar on the web site I manage for work and I currently handle all requests manually (no confirm on the list so it's transparent for users) http://www.wesley.vic.edu.au/prahran/mailinglist.html If you can point me in the rigt direction, I'd be most grateful. Kersti From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:22:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11929; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA11871 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA19920 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id JAA17186 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id JAA27126; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:37 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199804070746.JAA27126@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from Ken Hooper on Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0500) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken Hooper wrote in response to a message from me: > >If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making > >MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not > >interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating > >systems, then the internet has a problem. > > Err...where have you been? 8) We managed to filter the winmail.dat files, > we managed to deal with the incomprehensible error messages from Exchange, > we'll learn to adapt to or annihilate all new Microsoft schema. As long as the MLM software runs on a unix machine it is generally no big issue to filter out unwanted garbage. What I fear is that this may become much harder... > People do not subscribe to mailing lists to use their new Microsoft > products. People subscribe to mailing lists to get information. If the > Microsoft products get in the way of the information, then (presumably) > people will abandon their bad proprietary sw and get good cooperative sw, > in order to get the information they want. The problem is that when the mailing lists which have the good information are hosted on bad mailing list sw, end users (at other ends) may be forced to use e-mail software which cooperates with the weird message format used by that broken mailing list software. -- NB. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:23:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA12036; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA11947 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11928; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980407180831.11266@wombat> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:08:31 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? Please cite the RFC which specifies HTML as an Internet messaging standard. > The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. > I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! You're comparing apples and oranges. UUencode is not used for text messages, only for non-text files, such as images. The overhead of writing a message with HTML is non-zero and therefore exceeds the overhead of text-only messages (which *is* zero). > HTML is here to stay. I doubt it. I rather suspect it will be replaced within five years. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? Well, *everyone* has a mail reader that will handle text. Many people have a mail reader that will handle MIME. > Plain text messaging is on the way out. Unlikely. > Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for many years. Corporate messaging systems (like Lotus Notes) have been hell-holes of badly formatted, cross-mangled-indexed, multi-fonted junk for years as well. Besides, have you noticed that many of the problems those of us on the 'net face (when it comes to mail issues) are *caused* by corporate messaging systems which are incredibly broken and do horrible things when plugged into or gatewayed to the 'net? (Microsoft Mail comes to mind here.) No, I really wouldn't point to corporate messaging systems as sterling examples of *anything* except bad design and implementation. But let me put it to you this way: 99% of the people I've ever encountered on the 'net -- during what is now approaching two decades online -- are barely literate enough to compose a comprehensible text message, spell-check it, trim the original text (if they're replying), and get it to the right address/newsgroup. (Sometimes *I* am one of those people, e.g. on Monday mornings before coffee.) If you are concerned about making forward progress, then I'd worry about those issues rather than trying to ensure that every newbie out there can surround his or her babblings with tags. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:33:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA11216; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id OAA11190 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA25476 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2NC2KG5Q>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:52:42 -0400 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:52:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the biggest problems in electronic messaging. It's a next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for expression. ;-) If you were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think that you would be rather surprised at the value. First, just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. It makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that get so confusing when there have been five or six replies. A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation of a person, just like a voice does. Emphasis is so much easier with the ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, setting subject headings in larger text can ease reading. If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there no more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer away many years ago. Most of my printed correspondence is now in color. If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is weed, but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. Ed Woodrick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Voorhis [mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca] Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 11:40 PM To: Woodrick, Ed; 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM' Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing >Internet messaging standards? I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the size of messages with no increase in value. Value is the key point. If HTML would actually make the average message more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except consume extra bandwidth (and make me squint because of your poor choice of font), then I could see the value of it. I have yet to see a message that actually benefitted from being in HTML. In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. Woodrick. Is there anything there that couldn't have been sent as plain text? Is there anything there that was enhanced by being in HTML? From the looks of it, the HTML tags in your message were entirely redundant. For that, the Internet should waste additional bandwidth? If some MTA's at least had the intelligence to shut off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed ANY font changes, bold text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it differently. Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them out. Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten by my HTML filters are thankful when I point out the problem. As soon as they turn the HTML "feature" off, it seems some of them like the fact that their messages trot through their modems a little more quickly once all those pointless tags are removed. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists

Dave,

HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing = yourself, one of the biggest problems in electronic messaging. It's a = next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for = expression. ;-)  If you were to see a HTML exchange between = people, I think that you would be rather surprised at the value. First, = just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal = bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. = It makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that = get so confusing when there have been five or six replies.

A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a = unique representation of a person, just like a voice does. Emphasis is = so much easier with the ability to italicize or make characters bold. = In longer messages, setting subject headings in larger text can ease = reading.

If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, = then why are there no more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my = daisy wheel printer away many years ago. Most of my printed = correspondence is now in color.

If you don't give a new technology a place to = incubate, it will never grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. = Sure, you might think it is weed, but a worthless bread mold did change = the path of modern medicine.

Ed Woodrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Voorhis [mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca]
Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 11:40 PM
To: Woodrick, Ed; = 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'
Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists


At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote:

>     Why do yall go through = so much trouble to not utilize existing
>Internet messaging standards?

I filter out HTML messages for two simple = reasons:  They make digest
versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, = and they increase the
size of messages with no increase in value.  =

Value is the key point.  If HTML would actually = make the average message
more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except = consume extra bandwidth
(and make me squint because of your poor choice of = font), then I could see
the value of it.  I have yet to see a message = that actually benefitted from
being in HTML. 

In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. = Woodrick.  Is there anything there
that couldn't have been sent as plain text?  Is = there anything there that
was enhanced by being in HTML?  From the looks = of it, the HTML tags in your
message were entirely redundant.  For that, the = Internet should waste
additional bandwidth?  If some MTA's at least = had the intelligence to shut
off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed = ANY font changes, bold
text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it = differently.

Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing = list messages has some
benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will = continue to filter them
out. 

Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten = by my HTML filters are
thankful when I point out the problem.  As soon = as they turn the HTML
"feature" off, it seems some of them like = the fact that their messages trot
through their modems a little more quickly once all = those pointless tags
are removed.

Dave Voorhis
mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0-- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:45:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA11075; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id OAA11034 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA10471 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25241 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05480 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:34:22 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Typhoon.bom In-reply-to: Your message of 01 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:34:21 -0700 Message-ID: <5478.891916461@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Per Starback wrote: >Sometimes malicious people subscribe their victims to lots of mailing >lists to mail bomb them. It seems like one of my mailing lists has >for some time been used this way in a very consistent way, but I >haven't seen anyone else mention this. You missed my rant here about this several months ago. >Are other people not >experiencing the same as I am? Actually, plenty of people are. >Has anyone else been the victim of this? I have been. I have been subscription bombed three separate times. >I suspect it's not just one >individual who is doing all of this, but that it is some "cool" >program to mail bomb people circulating, but I'm not sure. Any leads? There _are_ indeed programs out there whose only purpose is to subscription bomb someone. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 16:25:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA18852; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA18834 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27536 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12804; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980407185734.30954@wombat> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:57:34 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:52:41PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:52:41PM -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > First, just the included text > operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal bar down the left side and > change the color/format of the reply text. It makes it significantly > easier to read than the > characters that get so confusing [...] I have no problem with included text. My mail client is Mutt (a worthy successor to Elm), and has a very nice way of representing included text (in color or not, depending on what device I'm using). There is no need to resort to HTML to handle this function -- and especially not, I might add, when most users need to be trained to trim included text to a bare minimum. > A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique > representation of a person, just like a voice does. Yes, it can. It can also allow them to be mindlessly foolish or to embarrass themself by exhibiting their lack of basic typographical skill. I think the point you're missing here is that most people have trouble enough expressing themselves when limited to ordinary text; giving them HTML to fiddle with will not assist them in doing so and will only allow them to be even more incoherent than they are already. > If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never > grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. HTML has a fine place to incubate: it's called "the web". That's what it was invented for, and it's doing just fine there -- much better than it would if misapplied to solve non-problems in the e-mail arena. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 16:38:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA21255; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA21215 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tneffgp ([160.43.147.201]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id RAA09342; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:16:40 -0600 (MDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: RE: HTML in lists Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:16:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd627b$3becdc40$c9932ba0@tneffgp.bloomberg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199804072222.PAA14647@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't allow HTML or attachments in my lists, either. People get an autoresponder explaining why, and a copy of their message to try cleaning up and submitting again. HTML simply doesn't work in Digests, and doesn't add much elsewhere. Most people who use it aren't doing so out of some kind of principled visionary commitment to new media, but simply because their mail software comes configured that way by default and they don't know how to turn it off, or even that it's possible to do so. A couple of list bounces motivates them to learn. I would not object to HTML as an option if broadly available mail clients (or middleware) made it optional for Digest or individual message recipients, but we ain't there yet. I do participate on a couple of lists and newsgroups where HTML is allowed, and on those groups it is invariably the rule that the postings containing useful info that I care about, were sent in plain text. Funny about that! I also don't allow Subject lines of the form "Re: Beekeeping Digest V4 #131." An autoresponder explains why, and encourages submitters to use an appropriate Subject line. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 17:06:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA26691; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA26468 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28274 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1998 23:07:04 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 7 Apr 1998 23:07:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407190239.00ea9b90@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:02:39 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Dave Voorhis Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:52 PM 4/6/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the >biggest problems in electronic messaging. Huh? How is "expressing yourself" one of the biggest _problems_ in electronic messaging? For anyone who can write passably well, that's no problem at all. For those who can't write, no amount of fancy formatting is going to help. REAL problems, which you didn't address, are digests that my s*bscribers can't read even with HTML-capable mailers, or messages that non-HTML-capable mailers can't display properly, or bandwidth consumption with no additional value. I agree with you that EFFECTIVE use of formatting can be of value, but I just don't encounter people using it. For example, your own message was devoid of formatting, except it appeared in 8 pt. Courier rather than the default 9 pt. Courier. If MTA's would be considerate enough to only HTMLify when it's needed, then I wouldn't have much of a problem. I'll admit that enhanced text in email is inevitable, but in its present form, the problems outweigh the benefits. If enough people like me reject the flawed form, maybe we'll see ways of handling enhanced text that don't consume so much bandwidth; that only use it when it's called for, and that don't exclude readers without the capability. >It's a next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for >expression. ;-) If you were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think >that you would be rather surprised at the value. I have seen many. In the hands of an experienced designer or typsetter, a well-crafted document is an effective communications tool. In the hands of most people, I either see (a) documents with no enhancements at all, but they're still HTMLified; or (b) a ghastly mish-mash of fonts and colors. >First, just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal >bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. It >makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that get >so confusing when there have been five or six replies. Such replies are only confusing when respondents fail to snip, and you DO NOT want to get me started on that. And I'd sure like to see the studies that show a vertical bar is appreciably more readable than a column of '>'s... >A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation >of a person, just like a voice does. That's a frivolity, entirely unworthy of wasted bandwidth. > Emphasis is so much easier with >the ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, >setting subject headings in larger text can ease reading. Good point. Kudos to the mailers that can do this with tags JUST around the enhanced text, instead of HTMLifying the entire message. Alas, this is probably not a standard. But, again I wonder... Just how much MORE readable are bold and italics over _underlines_ and *asterisks* and CAPITAL LETTERS? Is it worth the additional bandwidth and hassles? >If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there no >more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer away >many years ago. I'll bet black and white Courier 12 point text on a video display is more readable than almost any other font of the same size. A monitor is NOT printed text. What's highly readable on paper is not necessarily highly readable on screen. Look, I'm not arguing that enhanced text isn't, er... an enhancement. I'm arguing that the majority of HTML-formatted messages are just a bandwidth-gobbling collection of invisible tags on plain text content. I'm also arguing that on the majority of mailing lists, there is no NEED for enhanced text that outweighs the current limitations and problems. Really, it comes down to this: A plain text message is readable by all my s*bscribers. An HTML message is not readable by all my s*bscribers. Therefore, I am justified in filtering out HTMLified messages. >If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never grow, >or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is weed, >but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. Good heavens. Let's NOT try to equate the use of HTML in email with the invention of penicillin, okay? That stretch pulled the point so thin that it broke. I've said my piece. If anyone wishes to discuss this further with me, let's do it privately and avoid boring everyone else. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 17:36:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA00459; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp5.netcom.com [163.179.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA00445 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by netcomsv.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v2.01)) id RAA03419 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:27:02 -0700 (PDT) >Return-Path: Received: from sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:27 PDT Received: by chomolongma (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0yMhiH-000VJPC; Tue, 7 Apr 98 16:23 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:23:33 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19980407180831.11266@wombat> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Apr 7, 98 06:08:31 pm Reply-To: james@sagarmatha.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On my mailing lists, I trap HTML attachments (among others). I view my lists as means of passing information, or for discussion. To do this most effectively, I insist subscribers use plain text for messages; that way any subscriber can also read the message. When every subscriber has an HTML compatible mail reader (or whatever format becomes the wave of the future) then I'll permit that format on my lists. Until then, I embrace inclusion for all subscribers, and don't allow exclusive formats. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Lies of the 90's: james@sagarmatha.com | 1. The check's in the mail | 2. I'll still respect you in the AM. | 3. Click here to be removed from our list. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 20:54:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA08311; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA08121 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18703; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407203456.00abbd20@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:34:56 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers In-Reply-To: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:04 p.m. 04/06/98 -0700, Michael C. Berch wrote: >I'm certainly as entitled as anyone here to be a grumpy old man and UNIX >bigot, having sent my first UNIX e-mail message in 1975, and posted my first >Internet (ARPANET) mailing list message circa 1979, but the fact is that >standards evolve, markets evolve, and there are good reasons not to remain >tied to the lowest common denominator of the past. How about the lowest common denominator of the present? HTML-mail capability is not NEARLY as widespread as you imply. Until two months ago, I was stuck using Microsoft mail at my University job. I whined and bitched until I got moved to the academic mail server rather than the administrative mail server, so now I use Netscape Communicator -- but everyone else in CGU administration is stuck with a really crappy version of Microsoft's "Windows Messaging". They're still within that LCD who can't read HTML formatted email, you see. (Want them to upgrade? Sure, send your tax-deductable donation to Claremont Graduate University, and we'll be glad to.) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 21:00:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA08310; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA08120 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18700; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407202749.008806d0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:27:49 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers , Michelle Dick In-Reply-To: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> References: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:03 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Michael C. Berch wrote: >Michelle Dick wrote: >> Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for >> not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded >> color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. >This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps >appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I >would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Y'see, I optimize for least common denominator, not general case. >Besides, the screen readers for blind users (for Windows and X) that I know of >are easily configurable to ignore (or otherwise deal with) rich-text markup. >(Otherwise how do you think they would cope with Web pages?) In general, blind people can't cope well with the web; most people design for "general case" (i.e., "whatever I had six months ago"), and the visually impaired have a hard time using the web in the same way you or I would. BTW, since I have an opportunity to plug a project I'm working on, I'll take it: The HTML Writers Guild has declared April to be a special "focus on accessibility" month, to highlight the importance of designing pages that _everyone_ can access. More details at http://www.hwg.org/ :) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 04:55:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA17648; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 04:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA22021 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com ([209.64.54.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02922 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.di.com(209.64.54.3) by bbfm.di.com for on Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:58 -0700 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet >messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I >wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! I guess you get the live feed of list-managers. 'Cause your message looked like absolute crap when it was bound into the digest version. This is not your fault. But it is damn near impossible to mix raw messages from 50 different people using 50 different mailers and hope that you can get anything legible. That is why I have scripts that try and strip everything down to the bare essentials - the text. I run a digest-only moderated list. Despite the fact that most of my readers live in the States, most of them do not seem to be very sophisticated, net-wise. Thus, I have to cater to the lowest common denominator, mail-reader wise.. I like the idea of HTML mail so much, though, that I have yet another script that takes the plaintext Digest version and does a damn good job (if I do say so myself) of making a very useful HTML document out of it that I ship to about 10% of my readership (the amount of people who actually use an HTML capable mailer). I've put hacks in to add hyperlinks from the table of contents at the top to the actual message, and links to return you to the table of contents. I automatically make links out of anything that looks like a URL or an e-mail address. Any URL that ends in .GIF or .JPG or .JPEG is automagically turned into an in-line reference so that the image will actually be loaded into the middle of the digest itself. I also do minor things like italicize included text or text bordered like _this_. I also do the bolding for text like *this*. Finally, I change the color of the text of the moderators comments. All automagically with some brutal Perl scripts. Oh, I almost forgot the coolest feature. I've set up anchor links around each poster's name that does a search in the archives for every post ever written by them. So you can find what they've written before at a touch of a button. I also make the subject lines magically clickable in the same way so that you can find all previous posts with the same text as the subject. With this system, I've accomplished two things. One, everyone can read and post to my Digest, without excluding anyone due to the mailer they may be using. Two, my HTML readers get a very sophisticated digest that marks up *all* posts, even those written in PINE on a terminal server, with useful hyperlinks. -todd- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 09:08:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA28829; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA28813 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com ([134.173.9.242]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25597; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980408085803.009e3ab0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:58:03 -0700 To: Todd Day From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:19 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Todd Day wrote: >I like the idea of HTML mail so much, >though, that I have yet another script that takes the plaintext Digest >version and does a damn good job (if I do say so myself) of making a >very useful HTML document out of it that I ship to about 10% of my >readership (the amount of people who actually use an HTML capable >mailer). [description snipped] This sounds very cool. Would you be able to make this available for other people to use? :) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 18:57:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA09100; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcp.com (tcp.com [207.126.126.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08958 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by tcp.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA28537 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The VAST majority of messages in email are plain text. The VAST majority of html-ified messages in email are nothing more than the text with some

tags thrown in front of paragraphs. Of the remainder, the VAST majority only use the html to put tags around a URL. This is not enough to make html-ified messages useful as the VAST majority of html-capable mail readers will automatically recognize most URLs and automatically make them a hotlink. The remainder of messages that actually make some use of html are a TINY minority that is just not worth worrying about. Most people produce html-ified messages only because that's what their software does by default, not for any desire to make use of the function. Realistically how much value does html add to a mailing list? Unless you are attaching images or video, which is too big for most large lists to handle, you really aren't achieving much. Hotlinks are very useful, but most html-aware mail readers automatically hotlink most URLs. So you are left with changing fonts or making bolds or italics. Sorry, I just don't see that this is enough to deal with the drawbacks at this time. -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- AIM jlick1 -- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 21:53:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA09593; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mem.bellsouth.net (mail.mem.bellsouth.net [205.152.96.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA09553 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.53.40.22] (host-207-53-40-22.mem.bellsouth.net [207.53.40.22]) by mail.mem.bellsouth.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07611; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:53:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.mem.bellsouth.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:59:21 -0500 To: James Lick , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Ken Hooper Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Realistically how much value does html add to a mailing list? Yes, all this talk about the HTML, cutting edge of messaging technology is bewildering--despite handling hundreds of messages per day for years I cannot recall ever getting a message that somebody had intentionally, obviously formatted in HTML so as to improve it (although I did get a nice one in rich text once 8). People who write mail in HTML do so exclusively because their MUAs default that way and they are too dull to turn it off. Cutting edge indeed. Doing my part to make sure this thread never ends, --Ken 68 Westy, Admin --type2-- The Volkswagen Bus Mailing List From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 23:53:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA06525; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA20372 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23281 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:40:18 -0700 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA09802; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:39:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199804082039.AA09802@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 13:39:43 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael wrote: > Michelle Dick wrote: > > I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the > > undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to > > thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple > > plain text based. > > > > Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for > > not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded > > color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. > > This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps > appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I > would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Since I don't see any value to color or fonts on my list, I see it as unneccessary impendiments. Like taking out a pre-existing ramp that fits with the natural design and putting in stairs because 51% of the people like the way the square shape looks. I see no reason to lock out blind users using propietary software that works for them, poor users who can't afford the newest whiz-bang stuff, and others who haven't upgraded yet, when there is no increase in utility for the general case. It would be different if we were talking about the expense and inconvenience of putting in ramps rather than taking them out. Also, I myself do not have a color monitor at home. No one who has said how they are affordable has been willing to give me the money to buy one. Also, my love happens to be color blind and has said that some web sites and color coded messages are unreadable to him if they choose the colors a certain way. Given that rich text on a discussion list has only cosmetic value to some and prohibits utility to others, the conclusion is forgone on my list. I need to see substantial utility to the general case to justify locking out the few (not just cosmetic value). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 9 15:29:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA22168; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA22125 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:58:00 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: need an exploder site more than a list host To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:58:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk After 3 1/2 years WWA doesn't want to host the Party of Five List for free (well, for no charge beyond my account fees) any longer. I cannot afford their regular mailing list hosting rates, nor would it be practicable to require the members to pay for subscriptions, so the list needs a new home. WWA does not object to my continuing to administer a list from here without extra charges, just to their distributing it. The next part of the problem is yours truly. I operate the list with my own procmailrc routines and shell scripts rather than going through WWA's Smart- List installation. There are available list hosts out there but all that I know of require you to let their mailing list software slice and dice your list. In all the time of using my homebrew list distribution, I've gotten things to come out looking the way I like, which differs from the output of any mailing list package I know of. My feeling is that I don't want my name on it as list maintainer if it isn't coming out the way I want it; if I'm doing the work, I want to call the shots. Or if you want to look at it from another viewpoint, I'm a doddering middle-aged man too damn set in his ways. What I really want here is an exploder site rather than a list host: (1) It would have aliases for the list that forward to me at assorted varia- tions on my wwa.com address (which I'll be able to tell apart, even on blind carbons, thanks to quirks in WWA's Smail) and somewhere preserving the original envelope sender information so that I can see it. (2) It would accept distributions from me with their appropriate recipient addresses enclosed or attached (for example, they could be in Resent-Bcc: or Bcc: headers ready for sendmail -t) and send them along with minimal header damage and no alterations to the body. By "minimal header damage" I mean that of course it must add a Received: line and reset the envelope sender to the error address of the list, but it should leave From:, Date:, Reply-To:, Subject:, Message-Id:, and certain X- headers (if it changes Resent-Date: or Resent-Message-Id: or both, that's all right) untouched. Alternatively, the various subsets of the membership could be kept in files on the exploding site, and each distribution I send out would somehow indicate which file(s) of addresses to use. We'd arrange some way for me to update them from here when there are changes. (My guess is that including them with each item would be more reliable.) (3) #2 would apply even to digest issues; I would compile them here and send them to the exploding site for distribution. The exploding site would not need to save articles for digests and would not digestify them. Is there hope to find such a service, or am I dreaming too big? Does anyone have any leads? Thanks for any help. David Tamkin From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 9 23:07:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA14578; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [209.135.12.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA14269 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-6f.netxn.com [209.135.13.96]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19709; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352DB32F.AF7949BA@netxn.com> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:50:40 -0700 From: Linda Allison Organization: Little to none! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Woodrick, Ed" CC: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some > benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them > out. Yes. It even p*sses me off when I have to sit enlessly while downloading something as personalized as a love letter using HTML, let alone list mail?! Banish that thought now. I have yet to see one that gave me any more of a warm fuzzy feel about the idiot who wrote it. Linda (yes I see this thread is worn out) From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 10 10:38:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA10293; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intox.com (intox.com [206.184.228.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA10285 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.184.228.150] (unverified [206.184.228.150]) by intox.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:24:00 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:39:05 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Glenn Forrester Subject: Better List hosting software Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List owners, I have been reading this list because I am starting a mailing list hosting service based on custom list serving software. From my experience as a subscriber to lists and from the traffic on this list some of the features that would improve the utility of lists and make lists easier to use and administer are pretty obvious, however I was wondering if anyone on this list would be willing to speak to me in greater depth about various extensions to the basic LISTSERV/majordomo functionality that we are considering. If you would be willing to give me 10 minutes of your time, please send me your phone number at: glenn4@mindspring.com Please include good times to call. I will confirm the phone appointment via email before calling. Thanks, Glenn Forrester President 2u inc. From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 11 16:52:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA15324; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15142 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199804112344.claire.98043131@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:44:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: RE: HTML in lists Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <000201bd627b$3becdc40$c9932ba0@tneffgp.bloomberg.com> References: <199804072222.PAA14647@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A list I run had a recent spate of HTML messages. Didn't need any admin intervention: the other users dealt with the miscreant pretty quickly :) -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." --Rebecca West,1913 From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 11 17:22:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA15326; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15155 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199804112348.claire.98043132@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:48:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 1 Apr 98 at 21:28, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is > pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead > of a UUENCODE! are things different is the USA, or did no-one notice the date of Ed's msg that started this thread? I think you've all been the victims of an April Fool's joke :) Claire (who likes to be able to configure how text appears in her mailer, not have someone else decide the settings for me and gobble my bandwidth and disk space...) From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 12 10:37:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA23027; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bom2.vsnl.net.in (bom2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23000 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home (PPP29-223.lvsb.vsnl.net.in [202.54.29.223]) by bom2.vsnl.net.in (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08277 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:00:34 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> X-Sender: sarora@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:18:21 +0500 To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Sanjay Arora Subject: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to create a web-site relying heavily on Database & Email connectivity, preferably on a NT server. Data Input: In essence, people will submit data by filling out (web)forms at the site or by sending prescribed email forms, duly filled in. The site will validate both type of forms and add data to the database. Data Output: People will browse and search various submissions. For those, that want data sent to their mailboxes, two methods will be provided..filters that run everyday and email the results to the subscriber and mailing lists..based on broad categories. We anticipate reaching a target of 50K mailing everyday to 50000 people. Such a target of mailing, about 2.38 GB of email everyday, poses important server overhead and MTA assessment requirements. Experienced users/programmers are requested to comment, on various facets of the project. I plan to put up the site on a virtual server, mainly because I cannot afford a dedicated one. Hope to have a nice discussion on the subject and my thanks in advance. Sanjay. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 12 11:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25028; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25021 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA00879; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:52:44 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Sun, 12 Apr 98 10:52 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21619; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:33:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: Claire McNab Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199804112348.claire.98043132@siberia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Claire McNab wrote: > On 1 Apr 98 at 21:28, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > > Internet messaging stand