From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 3 11:26:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA26806; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:58:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA26719 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.170.33.127] (ppp-206-170-33-127.okld03.pacbell.net [206.170.33.127]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id JAA19390 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:02:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:58:26 -0800 Subject: New List From: "KHC" To: List Mgrs Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service provider, PacBell, does not offer this service. Does anybody know where I can start one? The intended audience will be architectural and design professionals. It may start off very small with a dozen or so subscribers for many weeks, and the maximum subscribers should be less than 500. I expect Majordomo would be the appropriate mailer. Price is a consideration. Are there any non-profit servers who may be able to support this? Thanks for any ideas. -Kenneth From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 3 23:52:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19325; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22399 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA13769 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:23:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803301526.IAA13937@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: (from woods@localhost) by ncar.UCAR.EDU (NCAR 12/5/96/) id IAA13937; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:26:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! To: murr@vnet.net (murr rhame) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:26:43 -0700 (MST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "murr rhame" at Mar 28, 98 11:24:44 am From: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In my humble opinion, allowing unmoderated posts by non-subscribers > is insane. Hey, let's not be *too* judgmental here. I'd say this is *risky*, but not necessarily "insane". Maybe it's "insane" if the mailing list in question is advertised and well-known to the entire Internet, but we disabled the "lists" command in majordomo except for a couple of lists that are intended for the general public (and those lists *are* moderated) and disabled the expn command in sendmail. The reason we do this is that we have lots of users at sites that are very minimally on the air. The users do not necessarily know that if they subscribe from one workstation and post from another, the addresses don't match. We also don't want to moderate those lists, so we leave them open, conceal their existence as best we can outside the user community they are intended to serve, and acknowledge the risk we are taking. If and when a list of this type does get hit by spammers, we'll have to moderate it, but I assure you we are not insane :-) --Greg From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 4 00:05:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA19312; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:41:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA07250 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:27:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA16773; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00454; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:54 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: KHC cc: List Mgrs Subject: Re: New List In-Reply-To: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, KHC wrote: > I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service provider, > PacBell, does not offer this service. > > Does anybody know where I can start one? This is an outline of procedures for starting a new list from scratch... Some day I hope to flesh this out a bit. Suggestions for additions to this beginners guide are welcome. First, you need to decide what sort of list you expect to run: Announcement or discussion? Moderated or not? Private or public? Access restrictions? How many subscribers do you anticipate? Have you written a charter and policy? If you know nothing about the various mailing list software packages, start with these links: http://www.catalog.com/vivian/mailing-list-software.html ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/archive-servers/faq ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq http://library.ummed.edu/~naleks/mlmfaq/mlmfaq_toc.html Each software package has a support mailing list which deals with setup issues for that particular software. List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is NOT a software support mailing list. For many people, the best option is to use someone else's server which is already setup and is always online. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 4 03:51:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA19948; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 03:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA14215 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA36432 ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:07:56 -0800 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803301526.IAA13937@ncar.ucar.EDU> References: from "murr rhame" at Mar 28, 98 11:24:44 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:56:56 -0800 To: woods@ucar.edu (Greg Woods), murr@vnet.net (murr rhame) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Mailing list spammer spams List-Managers mailing list! Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:26 AM -0800 3/30/98, Greg Woods wrote: > Hey, let's not be *too* judgmental here. I'd say this is *risky*, but > not necessarily "insane". It's risky the way coming home and smelling gas, but deciding since it hasn't blown up yet we don't need the repairman is risky. Maybe you haven't been hosed by this yet -- but it's a matter of time and/or luck. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 18:49:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA26114; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA26083 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moose.ncia.net (moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25594 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from foote.ncia.net (ncia123n.ncia.net [207.141.176.123]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA27595; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:45:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Webbers Communications" To: archken@pacbell.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:51:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New List In-reply-to: <199804031702.JAA19390@mail-gw.pacbell.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am trying to establish a new mailing list. My service > provider, PacBell, does not offer this service. > > Does anybody know where I can start one? Hi Kenneth, My internet marketing resources.txt file includes a number of providers of list management services, both free and pay-for. You can retrieve this file by sending the following e-mail to my autoresponder: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=resources.txt Another alternative would be to begin by running your mailinglist on your own computer using free-for-download Pegasus e-mail software. You can retrieve a tutorial I wrote on the subject that includes the URL for downloading the full-featured free software, at my own Pegasus e-mailer (yes it does autoresponders too) by sending the following e-mail: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=pegasus1.txt Hope this helps, Gary K. Foote mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com Webbers Communications http://www.webbers.com Web Design & Internet Marketing Since 1994 ------ FREE STUFF FOR INTERNET MARKETERS ------ Send the following e-mail to our autoresponder: mailto:gkfoote@webbers.com?Subject=webbers.info ----------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:03:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA22673; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22661 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA11683 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:28:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id HAA24055; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id HAA22911; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:05 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:33:05 +0200 Message-Id: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: wmcguire@cybercom.net In-reply-to: <352a0768.9207331@mail.cybercom.net> (message from Wayne McGuire on Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:48:41 GMT) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wayne McGuire wrote on majordomo-users: > Microsoft is reportedly working on additions to > Windows that will include and greatly improve on > the best features of majordomo, listserv and > similar programs for managing mailing lists. This > new software will not only be fully HTML/XML > aware, but be substantially framed in XML. I > wonder if the majordomo community, and the > traditional Unix community in general, sees what > is coming. Do anyone have detailed information about this, especially in what ways Microsoft plans to improve? If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating systems, then the internet has a problem. What do you think about this? Is this a real danger? If so, what can be done against it? May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:06:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA21866; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA21846 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stp.ling.uu.se (strindberg.ling.UU.SE [130.238.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA23012 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from moberg.LING.UU.SE by stp.ling.uu.se (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28996; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:30:21 +0200 Received: by moberg.ling.uu.se (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22092; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Typhoon.bom References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Per Starback Date: 01 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: Vince Sabio's message of Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sometimes malicious people subscribe their victims to lots of mailing lists to mail bomb them. It seems like one of my mailing lists has for some time been used this way in a very consistent way, but I haven't seen anyone else mention this. Are other people not experiencing the same as I am? The subscription messages I receive all have the following in common: * They are forgeries that have claimed that they are sent from "Typhoon.bom". A typical received line looks like this: Received: from Typhoon.bom ([194.182.35.150]) by web2. (SMI-8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA01190 for dcomics-REQUEST@strindberg.ling.uu.se; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:25:10 GMT * They are all phrased the same way with just two parameters changing: > Hi, > I am very interested in this mailing list and would like to > subscribe > My name is and my e-mail address is
> > Thank you, > > Has anyone else been the victim of this? I suspect it's not just one individual who is doing all of this, but that it is some "cool" program to mail bomb people circulating, but I'm not sure. Any leads? -- Per Starback "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" P.S. Yes, I know I should use a subscription mechanism with confirmation... From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:16:17 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA26071; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA26059 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quartz.nbnet.nb.ca (quartz.nbnet.nb.ca [198.164.200.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10309 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from vnetwork.nbnet.nb.ca ([207.179.148.139]) by quartz.nbnet.nb.ca (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 607-42492U60000L60000S0) with SMTP id AAA7425 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:57:32 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980404135819.007125b0@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca> X-Sender: vnetwork@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 13:58:19 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert Vinet Subject: Subscribe/Unsubscribe Software? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi All, Could someone suggest a solution to this problem. This may be somewhat off topic, but I would appreciate your suggestions. I publish a web site - allECommerce - and now want add a weekly, one-way, weekly text-based email newsletter to subscribers. My problem is that I need some way of managing subscriptions. I could do this by filtering subscribe/unsubscribe email messages from my site into a special mailbox within Eudora, but I would have to manually manage this function. I would rather have this done for me without much intrusion. I have thought of subscribing to a free list bot but the ones that I have found add an ad to the message and there is little control over the subscriber list. (The site is not yet profitable and I don't want to limit my expenses at this point.) My question: Is there a software plug-in for Eudora that will perform this function for me? Alternatively, is there another solution where I could retain control of my subscribers list (I don't want to see subscribers spammed)? Regards, Robert Vinet allECommerce - The Navigational Hub of the Electronic Commerce Professional Internet-Based Electronic Commerce News, Resources and Business Strategy V-Networks, Inc. 527 Beaverbrook Court, Suite 205 Fredericton, NB Canada E3B1X6 mailto:robert.vinet@allEC.com Phone: 506.454.7145 Fax: 506.452.7610 ICQ# 6306414 AOL Instant Messenger: allECcom -------------------- http://www.allEC.com ---------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:16:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA21842; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA21822 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA14126 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:22:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:28:49 -0500 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:28:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0 Content-Type: text/plain Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and everyone else ignoring you? HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH your subscribers than against them. Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for many years. Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! Ed Woodrick EDCOM -----Original Message----- From: Todd Day [mailto:today@di.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 7:17 PM To: 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM' Subject: HTML-enabled mailing lists taboo_body << END /^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i END At first, I wanted to take this approach as well. Unfortunately, many subscribers are stuck behind e-mail gateways at some small companies where they can't change this kind of behavior (configured at the server). So I have written a series of scripts as a front end (I call it the anal.filter) that tries as hard as it can to look for plain text that is usually included in MIME-type messages. Not only does this solve the HTML problem, but it also at the same time takes care of the infamous WINMAIL.DAT enclosure. It then scrubs all the MIME stuff off before passing it into majordomo 1.93 (I also do things like "cartoonize" profanity, word wrap long messages, change =2A to '.', etc... I even have it take care of some particularly annoying common spelling errors!). It has certainly made my mailing lists a lot nicer to look at, and allows everyone to participate without much pain. -todd- ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists

Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize = existing Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message = is pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of = a UUENCODE!

It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the = folks who are long time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that = many call so radically state-of-the-art, that you would have such an = archaic attitude. Don't you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going = around growling and everyone else ignoring you?

HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a = service to you list users, then you probably should start thinking = about how to work WITH your subscribers than against them.

Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will = read HTML, but at what percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for = those of you who are stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand = regular text messages, don't gripe and complain that the rest of us = decided to move on and leave you in the 60's. Plain text messaging is = on the way out. Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for = many years.

Lead, Follow, or get out of the way!

Ed Woodrick
EDCOM

-----Original Message-----
From: Todd Day [mailto:today@di.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 7:17 PM
To: 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'
Subject: HTML-enabled mailing lists


taboo_body         = ; <<  END
/^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i
END

At first, I wanted to take this approach as = well.  Unfortunately, many
subscribers are stuck behind e-mail gateways at some = small companies
where they can't change this kind of behavior = (configured at the
server).  So I have written a series of scripts = as a front end (I call
it the anal.filter) that tries as hard as it can to = look for plain text
that is usually included in MIME-type = messages.  Not only does this
solve the HTML problem, but it also at the same time = takes care of the
infamous WINMAIL.DAT enclosure.  It then scrubs = all the MIME stuff off
before passing it into majordomo 1.93 (I also do = things like
"cartoonize" profanity, word wrap long = messages, change =3D2A to '.',
etc...  I even have it take care of some = particularly annoying common
spelling errors!).  It has certainly made my = mailing lists a lot nicer
to look at, and allows everyone to participate = without much pain.

-todd-

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD5DDF.11B644A0-- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:21:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA22657; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA22630 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from terminator2.xtra.co.nz (terminator2.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA05892 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from polemic (dialin140.strip.net.nz [203.96.135.140]) by terminator2.xtra.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA20610 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:58 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199804030502.RAA20610@terminator2.xtra.co.nz> From: "Rex Widerstrom" Organization: Polemic Political Consultants To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:36 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Odd bounce message Reply-to: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net In-reply-to: <199804020933.BAA12081@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone tell me what the following might mean in the header of a bounced message?: 554 - infinite loop in ruleset 3, rule 7 Sun Sol server - N-3.4 with ESMTP I've seen a few bounced headers, but this one's new to me. Thanks Rex Widerstrom Director, Polemic Political Consultants http://polemic.net List Manager 'Political Campaign Techniques' Mailing List ICQ# 7177996 From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 19:52:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA09719; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA09613 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA27161; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA13639; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:25:44 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Norbert Bollow cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, wmcguire@cybercom.net Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Norbert Bollow wrote: > If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by > making MLM software widely available which easy to use but which > does not interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft > operating systems, then the internet has a problem. > > What do you think about this? Is this a real danger? If so, what can > be done against it? I am not usually a Microsoft basher. For the most part their software does what I want it to do with minimal fuss. On the other hand, MS mailers are some of the worst on the net. If they can not write a decent personal mailer, I doubt they will make much headway in the MLM market. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:11:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA14784; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA14765 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04078 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA19732 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:29 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA06061 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:27 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199804070253.VAA06061@celery.tssi.com> Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I > wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! If a message was _just_ in HTML, I might agree with that statement, but far and away the overwhelming majority of messages I see with an HTML component in them have all of the same content in a plain text component as well. So the overhead for HTML is often more than the actual message length, and net bandwidth is NOT an inexhaustable resource, especially to those of us who pay the bills for net access. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging > systems have been rich text for many years. Well, SOME have been. I have subscribers using PROFS on IBM mainframe systems, to say that their capabilities are limited is an understatement, even to a Unix fiend like myself. And I have seen cases of mail readers that CRASH because of HTML segments. There will come a time when HTML (or hopefully something _beyond_ HTML) will be sufficiently pervasive that it will make sense to change, but at this point, only about 30% of my list traffic is even in MIME format, and under 3% is in HTML, which is a far cry from universal acceptance. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:40:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA15238; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mem.bellsouth.net (mail.mem.bellsouth.net [205.152.96.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA15178 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.53.41.2] (host-207-53-40-161.mem.bellsouth.net [207.53.40.161]) by mail.mem.bellsouth.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19055; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:56:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.mem.bellsouth.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804030533.HAA22911@pythagoras> References: <352a0768.9207331@mail.cybercom.net> (message from Wayne McGuire on Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:48:41 GMT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0500 To: Norbert Bollow , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Hooper Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: wmcguire@cybercom.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making >MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not >interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating >systems, then the internet has a problem. Err...where have you been? 8) We managed to filter the winmail.dat files, we managed to deal with the incomprehensible error messages from Exchange, we'll learn to adapt to or annihilate all new Microsoft schema. People do not subscribe to mailing lists to use their new Microsoft products. People subscribe to mailing lists to get information. If the Microsoft products get in the way of the information, then (presumably) people will abandon their bad proprietary sw and get good cooperative sw, in order to get the information they want. --Ken 68 Westy, Admin --type2-- The Volkswagen Bus Mailing List From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 20:52:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA23502; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA23459 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12401 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1998 02:44:47 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 7 Apr 1998 02:44:47 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:40:11 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Dave Voorhis Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing >Internet messaging standards? I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the size of messages with no increase in value. Value is the key point. If HTML would actually make the average message more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except consume extra bandwidth (and make me squint because of your poor choice of font), then I could see the value of it. I have yet to see a message that actually benefitted from being in HTML. In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. Woodrick. Is there anything there that couldn't have been sent as plain text? Is there anything there that was enhanced by being in HTML? From the looks of it, the HTML tags in your message were entirely redundant. For that, the Internet should waste additional bandwidth? If some MTA's at least had the intelligence to shut off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed ANY font changes, bold text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it differently. Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them out. Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten by my HTML filters are thankful when I point out the problem. As soon as they turn the HTML "feature" off, it seems some of them like the fact that their messages trot through their modems a little more quickly once all those pointless tags are removed. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 21:07:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA29000; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA28940 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16372 ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:06:26 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Vince Sabio's message of Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:44:43 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:59:19 -0700 To: Per Starback , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Typhoon.bom Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:30 AM -0700 4/1/98, Per Starback wrote: > Are other people not > experiencing the same as I am? Not since I turned on subscription verification. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 21:20:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA27598; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA27413 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29181 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08160 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:04:49 -0700 To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 01 Apr 1998 21:28:45 -0500. <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:04:48 -0700 Message-ID: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>, Ed Woodrick wrote: >Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet >messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I >wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! > >It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long >time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically >state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't >you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and >everyone else ignoring you? > >HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list >users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH >your subscribers than against them. > >Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what >percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are >stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't >gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you >in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging >systems have been rich text for many years. > >Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! I happen to be one of those ``grumpy old men'' who still bitches (mildly) when people send me mail or post to USENET news with the same bloody stuff replicated below in HTML-ized form, but even _I_ will admit that Ed Woodrick has made some pretty compelling arguments here. Perhaps most compelling for me personally is that I certainly do not want to be the last one on my block to throw away my buggy whips and move onto something new. I compliment Ed for having made the case so eloquently. Seriously. Separately however, I'd like to ask him to please refrain from posting any more redundant HTML to the list. Some folks, myself included, con- sider it just slightly rude. (1/2 :-) P.S. Ed pegged me exactly right... I use UNIX and yes, I confess that I _do_ still have those old love beads stashed way back in the back of the closet somewhere. Peace man. :-) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 6 22:51:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05900; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (cvobku.cvo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.189.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05752 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV (MX V5.0) id 53; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -0700 Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:48:17 -0700 From: "Henry W. Miller" To: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@SACTO.MP.USBR.GOV Message-ID: <009C452E.2BB90C45.53@CVOBKU.CVO.MP.USBR.GOV> Subject: RE: Odd bounce message Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net" 6-APR-1998 18:45:53.19 > To: MX%"List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" > CC: > Subj: Odd bounce message > On Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:02:36 +1200, "Rex Widerstrom" said: "Rex Widerstrom" writes: > Can anyone tell me what the following might mean in the header of a > bounced message?: > > 554 - infinite loop in ruleset 3, rule 7 Sun Sol server - N-3.4 with > ESMTP > > I've seen a few bounced headers, but this one's new to me. > It sounds like they've got a bunged up sendmail.cf file. > Thanks > > > Rex Widerstrom > Director, Polemic Political Consultants http://polemic.net > List Manager 'Political Campaign Techniques' Mailing List > ICQ# 7177996 > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:03:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA01417; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA01396 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA08333 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:27:14 -0700 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA18788; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:27:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 21:27:10 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave wrote: > At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > >Internet messaging standards? > > I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest > versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the > size of messages with no increase in value. I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple plain text based. Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:37:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA09305; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09102 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id WAA08804; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:04:11 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm certainly as entitled as anyone here to be a grumpy old man and UNIX bigot, having sent my first UNIX e-mail message in 1975, and posted my first Internet (ARPANET) mailing list message circa 1979, but the fact is that standards evolve, markets evolve, and there are good reasons not to remain tied to the lowest common denominator of the past. I used text-based UNIX mailers for 21 years before moving to a GUI-based POP client in 1996. Two years later, I find it remarkable that anyone would continue to use a mail program that does not fully support MIME or handle HTML gracefully. While the members of list-managers are a lot of old-timers, remember that (to use the words of Stephen King in his THE DARK TOWER series) "the world has moved on". Realistically, the way to get people to adopt the whizzy new technologies is to create content that requires them. In this case, that means rich-text mail messages, MIME attachments, etc. A couple of years ago, I would have whined about someone sending a (reasonably-sized) GIF or JPG image to a mailing list I was on; now it's (usually) a pleasure. It would be unfair to require support for these if the cost of participating was unreasonable -- but all you need for e-mail rich text and images is a standard mass-market PC or Mac, not particularly high-end, a color monitor, a 28.8K modem (or better) or LAN Internet access, and an up-to-date free or cheap mail program. That's not too much to ask. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:51:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA17257; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA01232 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: johnjohn@triceratops.com Received: from triceratops.com (triceratops.com [206.83.162.235]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA19605 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21138 invoked by uid 100); 7 Apr 1998 05:33:19 -0000 Message-ID: <19980407053319.21137.qmail@triceratops.com> Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:33:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> from "Woodrick, Ed" at Apr 1, 98 09:28:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? Standards? What's the RFC that limits SMTP traffic to HTML? I seem to have forgotten it... > The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. Well, the message containing your email came to me in plain text -and- an HTML'ized copy. So taking a mail sample from an HTML'ized mail advocate (yourself), the overhead is over 100% of the actual message. > I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! Really? If I accept your comparison at face value, than all the more reason to not have HTML'ized messaging. mailing lists aren't the place for uuencoded binaries, unless they're created explicitly for that purpose. > It's just so disconcerting to me that some of the folks who are long > time residents of the Internet, a mechanism that many call so radically > state-of-the-art, that you would have such an archaic attitude. Don't > you feel like a dinosaur in Disneyland? Going around growling and > everyone else ignoring you? Why did you send a text copy of this message? > HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list > users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work WITH > your subscribers than against them. None of my subscribers have asked me to double the bytes received from my mailing lists while keeping the same content level. Speed, consistancy, and high signal/noise ratio is what's important to list users. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Plain text messaging is on the way out. Corporate messaging > systems have been rich text for many years. *yawn* your assertions are meaningless to me. BTW, apologies to those who cannot read the VRML copy of this message. > Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! Again, I ask, why did you send a plain text copy of your message? The answer: so people will read your message instead of ditching it. Think about that for a bit... John -- John White Triceratops Admin johnjohn@triceratops.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 00:57:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA15507; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm2.deskmedia.com (dm2.deskmedia.com [199.199.147.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA15447 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dev@localhost) by dm2.deskmedia.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20124; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 02:28:07 -0500 Message-ID: <19980407022807.47872@dm2.deskmedia.com> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 02:28:07 -0500 From: Lawrence Weeks To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Cc: "Woodrick, Ed" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Once upon a time (Wed Apr 01), Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > Internet messaging standards? The point of a mailing list is to exchange information with other people, just the same as a web page. The web has standards, such as HTML, so everyone can communicate. A browser (or, if you're Microsoft, the operating system) parses HTML as a minimum cost of entry. However, this is not true of email. The bare minimum for email is plain old text. The point of a mailing list, in general, is to enable a large number of people to communicate with one another effectively. Why complicate things needlessly? What's the point? To send a message in a pretty color or font? Why, and at what cost? As I say to people who advertise their brand new heavily "optimized" for brand X browser web page, what's your goal? To showcase and promote a proprietary technology and limit your web page to less than half the web? Shouldn't your goal be to communicate effectively with the most people possible? This is the primary reason I reject all HTML email. It offers no real value on a mailing list, and unnecessarily complicates communications. Likewise, I reject email with attachments. If you want to make a nicely formatted document available, don't send it to a thousand people, of whom maybe 10% actually want to see it. Send a URL. But there's a very pragmatic side too: I don't want to archive it, back it up on tape, index it for searching, etc. Your message was over 6200 characters long, let's break that down. The plain text of what you actually wrote was ~ 1152 bytes. You quoted ~ 1143 bytes of the original message (I know, netiquette on quoting is archaic). And your HTML took up the rest, ~ 3756 bytes. So, of the 6K, only 1K or so was actually worthwhile. If everybody did the same, that's a lot of wasted bytes. Let's say the mailing list has 1000 subscribers, and 100 messages a day... that adds up really fast, on the delivery side, on the archival side, and what value does it really add? We can have fonts and colors and bold and italic text. Wow. Thanks, but no thanks. > HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list > users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work > WITH your subscribers than against them. Yes, educate them as to when it is appropriate to use the latest whiz-bang technology, and when not to. Just because you *can* send bloated HTML email, doesn't mean you *should*. I've never had a list member complain about not being able to send HTML email, and have had lots of them thank me for filtering it out. Larry -- Lawrence Weeks "Audaces fortuna juvat." dev@deskmedia.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 01:21:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA23383; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA23376 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 249 invoked by uid 500); 7 Apr 1998 07:58:33 -0000 To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: "Michael C. Berch"'s message of "Mon, 06 Apr 1998 22:04:11 -0700" Date: 07 Apr 1998 00:58:32 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 40 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C Berch writes: > Realistically, the way to get people to adopt the whizzy new > technologies is to create content that requires them. In this case, > that means rich-text mail messages, MIME attachments, etc. A couple of > years ago, I would have whined about someone sending a > (reasonably-sized) GIF or JPG image to a mailing list I was on; now it's > (usually) a pleasure. Herein, I believe, lies the root of our disagreement. I've received lots of huge Framemaker attachments, big GIFs I cared nothing about, text marked up in formats that made it *harder* for me to read rather than easier, and other similar annoyances. I've received very few encoded messages where I actually cared about the encoded part enough to decode it, let alone wish it were decoded for me automatically. I find HTML text, properly rendered in a good browser that I've tweaked with my own preferences, *harder* to read than straight ASCII text. I *prefer* asterix markup to bold-face fonts, and _drastically_ prefer underline notation to italic fonts, because available bold and italic fonts suck for readability, and because screen fonts are normally small enough that if you try to do something fancy like putting them in italics, you render them incomprehensible. Any typographer will tell you that the necessary font size for readability is larger for an italic font than for a normal font. It's *very*, *very* hard to beat straight, ordinary 9x15 non-proportional X font for sheer readability on a computer screen. People seem very attached to markup languages without any knowledge of the HCI and human factors issues. (I'm not implying that about you, just about the discussion I've often read about the issue.) I'd be very interested in reading a defense of HTML text written by someone who does not consider it fundamentally obvious that bold-face is superior to *asterix* notation; until then, I have yet to see any defense written from a perspective I can share basic principles with. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 04:36:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA21486; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA21479 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 04:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA10565 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199804071115.GAA10565@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: mcb@postmodern.com Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:15:07 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Apr 6, 98 10:04:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Michael C. Berch" writes: > It would be unfair to require support for these if the cost of participating > was unreasonable -- but all you need for e-mail rich text and images is a > standard mass-market PC or Mac, not particularly high-end, a color monitor, a > 28.8K modem (or better) or LAN Internet access, and an up-to-date free or > cheap mail program. That's not too much to ask. > What you seem to be missing is that there are may types of lists. For job related lists, the subscribers may be receiving the list mail at their employer provided account, may be prohibited by company policy from using a modem connection and forced to read e-mail on a system that does not support HTML mail. Other lists may be targeted towards individuals who have very limited resources, e.g. my aids list for indiviuals who are HIV+. These folks need to use resources like Juno to subscribe to the lists. -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 10:53:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA10499; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA10302 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:45:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diffreithiant.demon.co.uk ([193.237.35.207]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2012733; 7 Apr 98 17:38 GMT From: Darren Wyn Rees To: Webbers Communications Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, owner-NEW-LIST@listserv.nodak.edu Subject: Re: New List Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:37:20 GMT Message-ID: <353a621e.7118199@post.demon.co.uk> References: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> In-Reply-To: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:51:18 -0500, "Webbers Communications" wrote in list-managers : I make the assumption here that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same gkfoote@webbers.com that is responsible for www.listex.com? Correct me if I'm wrong. I also make the assumption that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same gkfoote@webbers.com that mails me advertisements (spam, depending on one's point of view) every time I post to Marty Hoag's New-List List? Correct me if I'm wrong. (But I've got a neat collection of exactly the same canned response from gkfoote@webbers.com from every post to New-List List). >My internet marketing resources.txt file includes a number of=20 >providers of list management services, Gary, I had a bounce message from listex.com yesterday. I can't say I'm at all impressed. I followed the intstructions on your .txt template for adding my list to your listex.com website. =20 Can't you figure a way to stop sending auto-replies to everyone who posts to the New List List? (It's starting to peeve me after the twentieth canned ad. It also costs. It also piggybacks excessively on the service provided by New-List.). -- \/ Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk=20 -> PHONICS List for S/T/E/R/E/O/P/H/O/N/I/C/S Fans /\ http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/PHONICS/ =20 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 14:06:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA03374; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA03366 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id OAA12620; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:03:06 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers CC: Michelle Dick Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick wrote: > I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the > undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to > thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple > plain text based. > > Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for > not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded > color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Besides, the screen readers for blind users (for Windows and X) that I know of are easily configurable to ignore (or otherwise deal with) rich-text markup. (Otherwise how do you think they would cope with Web pages?) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:08:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11731; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA11685 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (lionet.wesley.OZ.AU [192.83.198.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA05392 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanear.wesley.vic.edu.au ([192.83.198.167]) by lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA08810 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:35:55 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407144827.0080d880@wesley.vic.edu.au> X-Sender: kanear.staff.prahran.wesley@wesley.vic.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:48:27 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kersti Anear Subject: Web based subscriptions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm looking for a way to make subscribing to a mailing list REALLY easy. I've actually had people subscribe like this: subscribe listname Daisy Jones 115A Wimpole Street So, what I'm looking for is a script that will take any form I pipe to it and pull out the subscription and unsubscription requests to which ever mailing lists are chosen. Oh yer, I know NOTHING about Perl... To get an idea, I have set up something similar on the web site I manage for work and I currently handle all requests manually (no confirm on the list so it's transparent for users) http://www.wesley.vic.edu.au/prahran/mailinglist.html If you can point me in the rigt direction, I'd be most grateful. Kersti From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:22:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA11929; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA11871 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA19920 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id JAA17186 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:38 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id JAA27126; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:37 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:46:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199804070746.JAA27126@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from Ken Hooper on Mon, 6 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0500) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken Hooper wrote in response to a message from me: > >If Microsoft decides to exploit their strong market position by making > >MLM software widely available which easy to use but which does not > >interoperate well with most e-mail clients on non-Microsoft operating > >systems, then the internet has a problem. > > Err...where have you been? 8) We managed to filter the winmail.dat files, > we managed to deal with the incomprehensible error messages from Exchange, > we'll learn to adapt to or annihilate all new Microsoft schema. As long as the MLM software runs on a unix machine it is generally no big issue to filter out unwanted garbage. What I fear is that this may become much harder... > People do not subscribe to mailing lists to use their new Microsoft > products. People subscribe to mailing lists to get information. If the > Microsoft products get in the way of the information, then (presumably) > people will abandon their bad proprietary sw and get good cooperative sw, > in order to get the information they want. The problem is that when the mailing lists which have the good information are hosted on bad mailing list sw, end users (at other ends) may be forced to use e-mail software which cooperates with the weird message format used by that broken mailing list software. -- NB. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:23:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA12036; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA11947 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11928; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980407180831.11266@wombat> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:08:31 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 01, 1998 at 09:28:45PM -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet > messaging standards? Please cite the RFC which specifies HTML as an Internet messaging standard. > The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. > I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! You're comparing apples and oranges. UUencode is not used for text messages, only for non-text files, such as images. The overhead of writing a message with HTML is non-zero and therefore exceeds the overhead of text-only messages (which *is* zero). > HTML is here to stay. I doubt it. I rather suspect it will be replaced within five years. > Granted, not everyone has a mail reader that will read HTML, but at what > percentage do you make HTML a standard? Well, *everyone* has a mail reader that will handle text. Many people have a mail reader that will handle MIME. > Plain text messaging is on the way out. Unlikely. > Corporate messaging systems have been rich text for many years. Corporate messaging systems (like Lotus Notes) have been hell-holes of badly formatted, cross-mangled-indexed, multi-fonted junk for years as well. Besides, have you noticed that many of the problems those of us on the 'net face (when it comes to mail issues) are *caused* by corporate messaging systems which are incredibly broken and do horrible things when plugged into or gatewayed to the 'net? (Microsoft Mail comes to mind here.) No, I really wouldn't point to corporate messaging systems as sterling examples of *anything* except bad design and implementation. But let me put it to you this way: 99% of the people I've ever encountered on the 'net -- during what is now approaching two decades online -- are barely literate enough to compose a comprehensible text message, spell-check it, trim the original text (if they're replying), and get it to the right address/newsgroup. (Sometimes *I* am one of those people, e.g. on Monday mornings before coffee.) If you are concerned about making forward progress, then I'd worry about those issues rather than trying to ensure that every newbie out there can surround his or her babblings with tags. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:33:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA11216; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id OAA11190 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA25476 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2NC2KG5Q>; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:52:42 -0400 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:52:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave, HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the biggest problems in electronic messaging. It's a next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for expression. ;-) If you were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think that you would be rather surprised at the value. First, just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. It makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that get so confusing when there have been five or six replies. A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation of a person, just like a voice does. Emphasis is so much easier with the ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, setting subject headings in larger text can ease reading. If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there no more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer away many years ago. Most of my printed correspondence is now in color. If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is weed, but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. Ed Woodrick -----Original Message----- From: Dave Voorhis [mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca] Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 11:40 PM To: Woodrick, Ed; 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM' Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing >Internet messaging standards? I filter out HTML messages for two simple reasons: They make digest versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, and they increase the size of messages with no increase in value. Value is the key point. If HTML would actually make the average message more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except consume extra bandwidth (and make me squint because of your poor choice of font), then I could see the value of it. I have yet to see a message that actually benefitted from being in HTML. In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. Woodrick. Is there anything there that couldn't have been sent as plain text? Is there anything there that was enhanced by being in HTML? From the looks of it, the HTML tags in your message were entirely redundant. For that, the Internet should waste additional bandwidth? If some MTA's at least had the intelligence to shut off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed ANY font changes, bold text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it differently. Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them out. Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten by my HTML filters are thankful when I point out the problem. As soon as they turn the HTML "feature" off, it seems some of them like the fact that their messages trot through their modems a little more quickly once all those pointless tags are removed. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists

Dave,

HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing = yourself, one of the biggest problems in electronic messaging. It's a = next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for = expression. ;-)  If you were to see a HTML exchange between = people, I think that you would be rather surprised at the value. First, = just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal = bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. = It makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that = get so confusing when there have been five or six replies.

A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a = unique representation of a person, just like a voice does. Emphasis is = so much easier with the ability to italicize or make characters bold. = In longer messages, setting subject headings in larger text can ease = reading.

If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, = then why are there no more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my = daisy wheel printer away many years ago. Most of my printed = correspondence is now in color.

If you don't give a new technology a place to = incubate, it will never grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. = Sure, you might think it is weed, but a worthless bread mold did change = the path of modern medicine.

Ed Woodrick

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Voorhis [mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca]
Sent: Monday, April 06, 1998 11:40 PM
To: Woodrick, Ed; = 'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'
Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists


At 09:28 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Woodrick, Ed wrote:

>     Why do yall go through = so much trouble to not utilize existing
>Internet messaging standards?

I filter out HTML messages for two simple = reasons:  They make digest
versions of my lists unreadable to many s*bscribers, = and they increase the
size of messages with no increase in value.  =

Value is the key point.  If HTML would actually = make the average message
more readable, or clearer, or do ANYTHING except = consume extra bandwidth
(and make me squint because of your poor choice of = font), then I could see
the value of it.  I have yet to see a message = that actually benefitted from
being in HTML. 

In fact, let's look at YOUR message, Mr. = Woodrick.  Is there anything there
that couldn't have been sent as plain text?  Is = there anything there that
was enhanced by being in HTML?  From the looks = of it, the HTML tags in your
message were entirely redundant.  For that, the = Internet should waste
additional bandwidth?  If some MTA's at least = had the intelligence to shut
off HTML formatting when the user hasn't employed = ANY font changes, bold
text, italics, or whatever -- then maybe I'd see it = differently.

Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing = list messages has some
benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will = continue to filter them
out. 

Interestingly, most of my s*bscribers who get bitten = by my HTML filters are
thankful when I point out the problem.  As soon = as they turn the HTML
"feature" off, it seems some of them like = the fact that their messages trot
through their modems a little more quickly once all = those pointless tags
are removed.

Dave Voorhis
mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca
http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave

------ =_NextPart_001_01BD61D8.9D939CF0-- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 15:45:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA11075; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id OAA11034 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA10471 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA25241 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05480 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:34:22 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Typhoon.bom In-reply-to: Your message of 01 Apr 1998 18:30:20 +0100. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 19:34:21 -0700 Message-ID: <5478.891916461@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Per Starback wrote: >Sometimes malicious people subscribe their victims to lots of mailing >lists to mail bomb them. It seems like one of my mailing lists has >for some time been used this way in a very consistent way, but I >haven't seen anyone else mention this. You missed my rant here about this several months ago. >Are other people not >experiencing the same as I am? Actually, plenty of people are. >Has anyone else been the victim of this? I have been. I have been subscription bombed three separate times. >I suspect it's not just one >individual who is doing all of this, but that it is some "cool" >program to mail bomb people circulating, but I'm not sure. Any leads? There _are_ indeed programs out there whose only purpose is to subscription bomb someone. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 16:25:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA18852; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA18834 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA27536 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12804; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980407185734.30954@wombat> Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:57:34 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:52:41PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Apr 06, 1998 at 11:52:41PM -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > First, just the included text > operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal bar down the left side and > change the color/format of the reply text. It makes it significantly > easier to read than the > characters that get so confusing [...] I have no problem with included text. My mail client is Mutt (a worthy successor to Elm), and has a very nice way of representing included text (in color or not, depending on what device I'm using). There is no need to resort to HTML to handle this function -- and especially not, I might add, when most users need to be trained to trim included text to a bare minimum. > A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique > representation of a person, just like a voice does. Yes, it can. It can also allow them to be mindlessly foolish or to embarrass themself by exhibiting their lack of basic typographical skill. I think the point you're missing here is that most people have trouble enough expressing themselves when limited to ordinary text; giving them HTML to fiddle with will not assist them in doing so and will only allow them to be even more incoherent than they are already. > If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never > grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. HTML has a fine place to incubate: it's called "the web". That's what it was invented for, and it's doing just fine there -- much better than it would if misapplied to solve non-problems in the e-mail arena. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 16:38:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA21255; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA21215 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tneffgp ([160.43.147.201]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id RAA09342; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:16:40 -0600 (MDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: RE: HTML in lists Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:16:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd627b$3becdc40$c9932ba0@tneffgp.bloomberg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199804072222.PAA14647@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't allow HTML or attachments in my lists, either. People get an autoresponder explaining why, and a copy of their message to try cleaning up and submitting again. HTML simply doesn't work in Digests, and doesn't add much elsewhere. Most people who use it aren't doing so out of some kind of principled visionary commitment to new media, but simply because their mail software comes configured that way by default and they don't know how to turn it off, or even that it's possible to do so. A couple of list bounces motivates them to learn. I would not object to HTML as an option if broadly available mail clients (or middleware) made it optional for Digest or individual message recipients, but we ain't there yet. I do participate on a couple of lists and newsgroups where HTML is allowed, and on those groups it is invariably the rule that the postings containing useful info that I care about, were sent in plain text. Funny about that! I also don't allow Subject lines of the form "Re: Beekeeping Digest V4 #131." An autoresponder explains why, and encourages submitters to use an appropriate Subject line. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 17:06:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA26691; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA26468 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28274 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1998 23:07:04 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 7 Apr 1998 23:07:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407190239.00ea9b90@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 19:02:39 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Dave Voorhis Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:52 PM 4/6/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the >biggest problems in electronic messaging. Huh? How is "expressing yourself" one of the biggest _problems_ in electronic messaging? For anyone who can write passably well, that's no problem at all. For those who can't write, no amount of fancy formatting is going to help. REAL problems, which you didn't address, are digests that my s*bscribers can't read even with HTML-capable mailers, or messages that non-HTML-capable mailers can't display properly, or bandwidth consumption with no additional value. I agree with you that EFFECTIVE use of formatting can be of value, but I just don't encounter people using it. For example, your own message was devoid of formatting, except it appeared in 8 pt. Courier rather than the default 9 pt. Courier. If MTA's would be considerate enough to only HTMLify when it's needed, then I wouldn't have much of a problem. I'll admit that enhanced text in email is inevitable, but in its present form, the problems outweigh the benefits. If enough people like me reject the flawed form, maybe we'll see ways of handling enhanced text that don't consume so much bandwidth; that only use it when it's called for, and that don't exclude readers without the capability. >It's a next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for >expression. ;-) If you were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think >that you would be rather surprised at the value. I have seen many. In the hands of an experienced designer or typsetter, a well-crafted document is an effective communications tool. In the hands of most people, I either see (a) documents with no enhancements at all, but they're still HTMLified; or (b) a ghastly mish-mash of fonts and colors. >First, just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal >bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. It >makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that get >so confusing when there have been five or six replies. Such replies are only confusing when respondents fail to snip, and you DO NOT want to get me started on that. And I'd sure like to see the studies that show a vertical bar is appreciably more readable than a column of '>'s... >A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation >of a person, just like a voice does. That's a frivolity, entirely unworthy of wasted bandwidth. > Emphasis is so much easier with >the ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, >setting subject headings in larger text can ease reading. Good point. Kudos to the mailers that can do this with tags JUST around the enhanced text, instead of HTMLifying the entire message. Alas, this is probably not a standard. But, again I wonder... Just how much MORE readable are bold and italics over _underlines_ and *asterisks* and CAPITAL LETTERS? Is it worth the additional bandwidth and hassles? >If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there no >more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer away >many years ago. I'll bet black and white Courier 12 point text on a video display is more readable than almost any other font of the same size. A monitor is NOT printed text. What's highly readable on paper is not necessarily highly readable on screen. Look, I'm not arguing that enhanced text isn't, er... an enhancement. I'm arguing that the majority of HTML-formatted messages are just a bandwidth-gobbling collection of invisible tags on plain text content. I'm also arguing that on the majority of mailing lists, there is no NEED for enhanced text that outweighs the current limitations and problems. Really, it comes down to this: A plain text message is readable by all my s*bscribers. An HTML message is not readable by all my s*bscribers. Therefore, I am justified in filtering out HTMLified messages. >If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never grow, >or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is weed, >but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. Good heavens. Let's NOT try to equate the use of HTML in email with the invention of penicillin, okay? That stretch pulled the point so thin that it broke. I've said my piece. If anyone wishes to discuss this further with me, let's do it privately and avoid boring everyone else. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 17:36:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA00459; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp5.netcom.com [163.179.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA00445 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by netcomsv.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v2.01)) id RAA03419 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:27:02 -0700 (PDT) >Return-Path: Received: from sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:27 PDT Received: by chomolongma (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0yMhiH-000VJPC; Tue, 7 Apr 98 16:23 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:23:33 -0800 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19980407180831.11266@wombat> from "Rich Kulawiec" at Apr 7, 98 06:08:31 pm Reply-To: james@sagarmatha.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On my mailing lists, I trap HTML attachments (among others). I view my lists as means of passing information, or for discussion. To do this most effectively, I insist subscribers use plain text for messages; that way any subscriber can also read the message. When every subscriber has an HTML compatible mail reader (or whatever format becomes the wave of the future) then I'll permit that format on my lists. Until then, I embrace inclusion for all subscribers, and don't allow exclusive formats. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Lies of the 90's: james@sagarmatha.com | 1. The check's in the mail | 2. I'll still respect you in the AM. | 3. Click here to be removed from our list. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 20:54:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA08311; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA08121 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18703; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407203456.00abbd20@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:34:56 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers In-Reply-To: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:04 p.m. 04/06/98 -0700, Michael C. Berch wrote: >I'm certainly as entitled as anyone here to be a grumpy old man and UNIX >bigot, having sent my first UNIX e-mail message in 1975, and posted my first >Internet (ARPANET) mailing list message circa 1979, but the fact is that >standards evolve, markets evolve, and there are good reasons not to remain >tied to the lowest common denominator of the past. How about the lowest common denominator of the present? HTML-mail capability is not NEARLY as widespread as you imply. Until two months ago, I was stuck using Microsoft mail at my University job. I whined and bitched until I got moved to the academic mail server rather than the administrative mail server, so now I use Netscape Communicator -- but everyone else in CGU administration is stuck with a really crappy version of Microsoft's "Windows Messaging". They're still within that LCD who can't read HTML formatted email, you see. (Want them to upgrade? Sure, send your tax-deductable donation to Claremont Graduate University, and we'll be glad to.) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 7 21:00:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA08310; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA08120 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18700; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407202749.008806d0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 20:27:49 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers , Michelle Dick In-Reply-To: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> References: <199804070427.AA18788@jive.rahul.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:03 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Michael C. Berch wrote: >Michelle Dick wrote: >> Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for >> not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded >> color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. >This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps >appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I >would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Y'see, I optimize for least common denominator, not general case. >Besides, the screen readers for blind users (for Windows and X) that I know of >are easily configurable to ignore (or otherwise deal with) rich-text markup. >(Otherwise how do you think they would cope with Web pages?) In general, blind people can't cope well with the web; most people design for "general case" (i.e., "whatever I had six months ago"), and the visually impaired have a hard time using the web in the same way you or I would. BTW, since I have an opportunity to plug a project I'm working on, I'll take it: The HTML Writers Guild has declared April to be a special "focus on accessibility" month, to highlight the importance of designing pages that _everyone_ can access. More details at http://www.hwg.org/ :) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 04:55:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA17648; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 04:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA22021 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com ([209.64.54.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02922 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.di.com(209.64.54.3) by bbfm.di.com for on Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:58 -0700 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:15 -0700 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:19:14 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing Internet >messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is pretty small. I >wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead of a UUENCODE! I guess you get the live feed of list-managers. 'Cause your message looked like absolute crap when it was bound into the digest version. This is not your fault. But it is damn near impossible to mix raw messages from 50 different people using 50 different mailers and hope that you can get anything legible. That is why I have scripts that try and strip everything down to the bare essentials - the text. I run a digest-only moderated list. Despite the fact that most of my readers live in the States, most of them do not seem to be very sophisticated, net-wise. Thus, I have to cater to the lowest common denominator, mail-reader wise.. I like the idea of HTML mail so much, though, that I have yet another script that takes the plaintext Digest version and does a damn good job (if I do say so myself) of making a very useful HTML document out of it that I ship to about 10% of my readership (the amount of people who actually use an HTML capable mailer). I've put hacks in to add hyperlinks from the table of contents at the top to the actual message, and links to return you to the table of contents. I automatically make links out of anything that looks like a URL or an e-mail address. Any URL that ends in .GIF or .JPG or .JPEG is automagically turned into an in-line reference so that the image will actually be loaded into the middle of the digest itself. I also do minor things like italicize included text or text bordered like _this_. I also do the bolding for text like *this*. Finally, I change the color of the text of the moderators comments. All automagically with some brutal Perl scripts. Oh, I almost forgot the coolest feature. I've set up anchor links around each poster's name that does a search in the archives for every post ever written by them. So you can find what they've written before at a touch of a button. I also make the subject lines magically clickable in the same way so that you can find all previous posts with the same text as the subject. With this system, I've accomplished two things. One, everyone can read and post to my Digest, without excluding anyone due to the mailer they may be using. Two, my HTML readers get a very sophisticated digest that marks up *all* posts, even those written in PINE on a terminal server, with useful hyperlinks. -todd- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 09:08:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA28829; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA28813 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com ([134.173.9.242]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25597; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980408085803.009e3ab0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:58:03 -0700 To: Todd Day From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:19 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Todd Day wrote: >I like the idea of HTML mail so much, >though, that I have yet another script that takes the plaintext Digest >version and does a damn good job (if I do say so myself) of making a >very useful HTML document out of it that I ship to about 10% of my >readership (the amount of people who actually use an HTML capable >mailer). [description snipped] This sounds very cool. Would you be able to make this available for other people to use? :) -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 18:57:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA09100; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tcp.com (tcp.com [207.126.126.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA08958 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by tcp.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.6.10) with SMTP id SAA28537 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:23:17 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The VAST majority of messages in email are plain text. The VAST majority of html-ified messages in email are nothing more than the text with some

tags thrown in front of paragraphs. Of the remainder, the VAST majority only use the html to put tags around a URL. This is not enough to make html-ified messages useful as the VAST majority of html-capable mail readers will automatically recognize most URLs and automatically make them a hotlink. The remainder of messages that actually make some use of html are a TINY minority that is just not worth worrying about. Most people produce html-ified messages only because that's what their software does by default, not for any desire to make use of the function. Realistically how much value does html add to a mailing list? Unless you are attaching images or video, which is too big for most large lists to handle, you really aren't achieving much. Hotlinks are very useful, but most html-aware mail readers automatically hotlink most URLs. So you are left with changing fonts or making bolds or italics. Sorry, I just don't see that this is enough to deal with the drawbacks at this time. -- James Lick -- jlick@drivel.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- AIM jlick1 -- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 21:53:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA09593; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.mem.bellsouth.net (mail.mem.bellsouth.net [205.152.96.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA09553 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 20:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.53.40.22] (host-207-53-40-22.mem.bellsouth.net [207.53.40.22]) by mail.mem.bellsouth.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA07611; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:53:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.mem.bellsouth.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:59:21 -0500 To: James Lick , "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Ken Hooper Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Realistically how much value does html add to a mailing list? Yes, all this talk about the HTML, cutting edge of messaging technology is bewildering--despite handling hundreds of messages per day for years I cannot recall ever getting a message that somebody had intentionally, obviously formatted in HTML so as to improve it (although I did get a nice one in rich text once 8). People who write mail in HTML do so exclusively because their MUAs default that way and they are too dull to turn it off. Cutting edge indeed. Doing my part to make sure this thread never ends, --Ken 68 Westy, Admin --type2-- The Volkswagen Bus Mailing List From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 8 23:53:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA06525; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bolero-x.rahul.net (bolero.rahul.net [192.160.13.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA20372 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero-x.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23281 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:40:18 -0700 Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA09802; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:39:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199804082039.AA09802@jive.rahul.net> To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <352A946F.CBC1102A@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 13:39:43 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael wrote: > Michelle Dick wrote: > > I also don't allow HTML messages on my list. And to expand on the > > undreadable issue, I have had blind list subscribers write to me to > > thank me for the fact that my mailing list and web site are simple > > plain text based. > > > > Keeping lists accessable to blind readers is yet another reason for > > not complicating simple text discussion with overhead for uneeded > > color and fonts. Color and fonts do not improve discussion. > > This seems to me to be a case of the tail wagging the dog; perhaps > appropriate for a list designed specially for blind readers, but otherwise I > would stick to the axiom, "optimize for the general case". Since I don't see any value to color or fonts on my list, I see it as unneccessary impendiments. Like taking out a pre-existing ramp that fits with the natural design and putting in stairs because 51% of the people like the way the square shape looks. I see no reason to lock out blind users using propietary software that works for them, poor users who can't afford the newest whiz-bang stuff, and others who haven't upgraded yet, when there is no increase in utility for the general case. It would be different if we were talking about the expense and inconvenience of putting in ramps rather than taking them out. Also, I myself do not have a color monitor at home. No one who has said how they are affordable has been willing to give me the money to buy one. Also, my love happens to be color blind and has said that some web sites and color coded messages are unreadable to him if they choose the colors a certain way. Given that rich text on a discussion list has only cosmetic value to some and prohibits utility to others, the conclusion is forgone on my list. I need to see substantial utility to the general case to justify locking out the few (not just cosmetic value). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 9 15:29:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA22168; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA22125 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:58:00 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: need an exploder site more than a list host To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:58:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk After 3 1/2 years WWA doesn't want to host the Party of Five List for free (well, for no charge beyond my account fees) any longer. I cannot afford their regular mailing list hosting rates, nor would it be practicable to require the members to pay for subscriptions, so the list needs a new home. WWA does not object to my continuing to administer a list from here without extra charges, just to their distributing it. The next part of the problem is yours truly. I operate the list with my own procmailrc routines and shell scripts rather than going through WWA's Smart- List installation. There are available list hosts out there but all that I know of require you to let their mailing list software slice and dice your list. In all the time of using my homebrew list distribution, I've gotten things to come out looking the way I like, which differs from the output of any mailing list package I know of. My feeling is that I don't want my name on it as list maintainer if it isn't coming out the way I want it; if I'm doing the work, I want to call the shots. Or if you want to look at it from another viewpoint, I'm a doddering middle-aged man too damn set in his ways. What I really want here is an exploder site rather than a list host: (1) It would have aliases for the list that forward to me at assorted varia- tions on my wwa.com address (which I'll be able to tell apart, even on blind carbons, thanks to quirks in WWA's Smail) and somewhere preserving the original envelope sender information so that I can see it. (2) It would accept distributions from me with their appropriate recipient addresses enclosed or attached (for example, they could be in Resent-Bcc: or Bcc: headers ready for sendmail -t) and send them along with minimal header damage and no alterations to the body. By "minimal header damage" I mean that of course it must add a Received: line and reset the envelope sender to the error address of the list, but it should leave From:, Date:, Reply-To:, Subject:, Message-Id:, and certain X- headers (if it changes Resent-Date: or Resent-Message-Id: or both, that's all right) untouched. Alternatively, the various subsets of the membership could be kept in files on the exploding site, and each distribution I send out would somehow indicate which file(s) of addresses to use. We'd arrange some way for me to update them from here when there are changes. (My guess is that including them with each item would be more reliable.) (3) #2 would apply even to digest issues; I would compile them here and send them to the exploding site for distribution. The exploding site would not need to save articles for digests and would not digestify them. Is there hope to find such a service, or am I dreaming too big? Does anyone have any leads? Thanks for any help. David Tamkin From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 9 23:07:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA14578; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [209.135.12.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA14269 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-6f.netxn.com [209.135.13.96]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA19709; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <352DB32F.AF7949BA@netxn.com> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:50:40 -0700 From: Linda Allison Organization: Little to none! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Woodrick, Ed" CC: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.5.32.19980406224011.00f00360@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Voorhis wrote: > Until I see evidence that HTML formatting in mailing list messages has some > benefits that outweigh the disadvantages, I will continue to filter them > out. Yes. It even p*sses me off when I have to sit enlessly while downloading something as personalized as a love letter using HTML, let alone list mail?! Banish that thought now. I have yet to see one that gave me any more of a warm fuzzy feel about the idiot who wrote it. Linda (yes I see this thread is worn out) From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 10 10:38:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA10293; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from intox.com (intox.com [206.184.228.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA10285 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.184.228.150] (unverified [206.184.228.150]) by intox.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:24:00 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:39:05 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Glenn Forrester Subject: Better List hosting software Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List owners, I have been reading this list because I am starting a mailing list hosting service based on custom list serving software. From my experience as a subscriber to lists and from the traffic on this list some of the features that would improve the utility of lists and make lists easier to use and administer are pretty obvious, however I was wondering if anyone on this list would be willing to speak to me in greater depth about various extensions to the basic LISTSERV/majordomo functionality that we are considering. If you would be willing to give me 10 minutes of your time, please send me your phone number at: glenn4@mindspring.com Please include good times to call. I will confirm the phone appointment via email before calling. Thanks, Glenn Forrester President 2u inc. From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 11 16:52:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA15324; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15142 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199804112344.claire.98043131@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:44:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: RE: HTML in lists Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <000201bd627b$3becdc40$c9932ba0@tneffgp.bloomberg.com> References: <199804072222.PAA14647@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A list I run had a recent spate of HTML messages. Didn't need any admin intervention: the other users dealt with the miscreant pretty quickly :) -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk "I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." --Rebecca West,1913 From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 11 17:22:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA15326; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15155 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199804112348.claire.98043132@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:48:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk In-reply-to: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 1 Apr 98 at 21:28, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is > pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead > of a UUENCODE! are things different is the USA, or did no-one notice the date of Ed's msg that started this thread? I think you've all been the victims of an April Fool's joke :) Claire (who likes to be able to configure how text appears in her mailer, not have someone else decide the settings for me and gobble my bandwidth and disk space...) From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 12 10:37:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA23027; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:24:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bom2.vsnl.net.in (bom2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23000 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home (PPP29-223.lvsb.vsnl.net.in [202.54.29.223]) by bom2.vsnl.net.in (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA08277 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:00:34 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> X-Sender: sarora@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:18:21 +0500 To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Sanjay Arora Subject: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to create a web-site relying heavily on Database & Email connectivity, preferably on a NT server. Data Input: In essence, people will submit data by filling out (web)forms at the site or by sending prescribed email forms, duly filled in. The site will validate both type of forms and add data to the database. Data Output: People will browse and search various submissions. For those, that want data sent to their mailboxes, two methods will be provided..filters that run everyday and email the results to the subscriber and mailing lists..based on broad categories. We anticipate reaching a target of 50K mailing everyday to 50000 people. Such a target of mailing, about 2.38 GB of email everyday, poses important server overhead and MTA assessment requirements. Experienced users/programmers are requested to comment, on various facets of the project. I plan to put up the site on a virtual server, mainly because I cannot afford a dedicated one. Hope to have a nice discussion on the subject and my thanks in advance. Sanjay. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 12 11:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25028; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25021 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA00879; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 17:52:44 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Sun, 12 Apr 98 10:52 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21619; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:33:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:33:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: Claire McNab Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199804112348.claire.98043132@siberia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Claire McNab wrote: > On 1 Apr 98 at 21:28, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > > Internet messaging standards? The overhead of an HTML message is > > pretty small. I wouldn't be surprised if it was near the overhead > > of a UUENCODE! > > are things different is the USA, or did no-one notice the date of > Ed's msg that started this thread? > > I think you've all been the victims of an April Fool's joke :) Ah but look at the time, after noon. Hence if it was intended to be an April Fools joke it was sent out much too late. Besides, he certianly did keep it up beyond the first... Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 Bugs, pl. n.: Small living things that small living boys throw on small living girls. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 12 12:52:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA26467; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from list.audubon.org (www.audubon.org [38.242.205.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA26459 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [12.62.21.98] (38.242.205.245) by list.audubon.org (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.B79E1760@list.audubon.org>; 12 Apr 1998 15:57:38 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:59:51 -0400 To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" From: Chris Pepper Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed, From your claim that font choice represents personality, I conclude either that you whisper in conversation, or you're hard to see, being so short, and further that you consider this to be a problem with my eyesight. Yes, colorizing of quotes is a nice thing; it doesn't actually require HTML or enriched MIME, though -- just a mail client that recognizes quoted text; I'll grant you that the drive to make mailers HTML-compliant has dwarfed the difficulty of colorizing >-preceded lines, but HTML isn't really significant here. Nobody told you not to have "a HTML exchange between people", but we don't really care what you do with your friends/correspondents on your own time. I and others *do* mind you sending large unreadable message bodies (I can read them but many list members can't, and calling us dinosaurs isn't a good bet for persuading us of anything), or just wasting our time/storage. BTW, Eudora Pro 4 handles formatting acceptably for me; when replying to a message that contains formatting, it uses fancified quoting, rather than > , since it's a good bet the recipient can handle it. Eudora also allows specification of MIME text/enriched or HTML formatting, and defaults to plain text; when you send a message with formatting (either as a reply to a formatted message or with formatting manually applied), you can be prompted to confirm that you want to send formatting. This is pretty good, but to handle it perfectly, Eudora would have to be able to send 3 copies of a given message, for people wanting plain text, those wanting HTML, and those wanting text/enriched. This may not be worth implementing, but until it is available we'll have problems with discussions among people who are using clients with different formatting capabilities. Ed, I like Courier 12 -- the effect of your HTML message is that I see an approximation of what *you* like. This neither endears you to me nor makes reading your message easier. On the other hand, if you can cure a disease, you'll earn yourself some more slack. It might be easier for you to point out an example of how HTML formatting helped make a message clearer -- your own message was a failure in this regard. Chris Pepper PS-I'm going to agree with the consensus here -- the presence of an HTML message in my mailbox is generally (at least 4/5ths of the time) an indicator that someone doesn't know how to configure their mailer, rather than a sign that this message has worthwhile formatting). At 11:52 PM -0400 04/06/98, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >Dave, > >HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the >biggest problems in electronic messaging. It's a next step beyond the >incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for expression. ;-) If you >were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think that you would be >rather surprised at the value. First, just the included text operation. >Some HTML mailers put a horizontal bar down the left side and change the >color/format of the reply text. It makes it significantly easier to read >than the > characters that get so confusing when there have been five or >six replies. > >A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation >of a person, just like a voice does. Emphasis is so much easier with the >ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, setting >subject headings in larger text can ease reading. > >If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there >no more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer >away many years ago. Most of my printed correspondence is now in color. > >If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never >grow, or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is >weed, but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. > >Ed Woodrick -- Chris Pepper | National Audubon Society: Web & List Manager 212 979 3092 | From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 13 08:38:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA09055; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA03787 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.52.175] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yOkow-0001eu-00; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:06:54 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980413154838.009cab90@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:48:38 +0100 To: Sanjay Arora From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Such a target of mailing, about 2.38 GB of email everyday, poses important >server overhead and MTA assessment requirements. Experienced >users/programmers are requested to comment, on various facets of the >project. I plan to put up the site on a virtual server, mainly because I >cannot afford a dedicated one. Hmm - that's a hell of a lot of throughput which means you resource use of a mail server and bandwidth will be significant. Both of these *should* make the costs for a dedicated co-located server relatively insignificant. I say should because you may find an ISP who doesn't monitor/limit use of these resources but they should - especially if they wind up with you as a client. Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 13 14:23:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA18198; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bom2.vsnl.net.in (bom2.vsnl.net.in [202.54.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA18037 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home (PPP45-216.lvsb.vsnl.net.in [202.54.45.216]) by bom2.vsnl.net.in (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14530; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:55:06 +0530 (IST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980414014534.00c6b158@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> X-Sender: sarora@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:45:34 +0500 To: Manar Hussain From: Sanjay Arora Subject: Re: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980413154838.009cab90@stingray.ivision.co.uk> References: <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for the critique..I guess I deserved that ;). It IS a big amount of server overhead! Can it really not be implemented as a virtual server? What should I look for..a leased server? What kind of resources? OS suggestions, keeping in mind, I wish to use something like Frontpage/Cold Fusion, to ease the programming of the site. Or should I go in for HTML/CGI programming directly..CGI WOULD be CPU intensive. Please do help me. Beginners with tall ideas, do need a lot of help, All they can get, in fact. With best regards. Sanjay. At 03:48 PM 4/13/98 +0100, Manar Hussain wrote: >>Such a target of mailing, about 2.38 GB of email everyday, poses important >>server overhead and MTA assessment requirements. Experienced >>users/programmers are requested to comment, on various facets of the >>project. I plan to put up the site on a virtual server, mainly because I >>cannot afford a dedicated one. > >Hmm - that's a hell of a lot of throughput which means you resource use of >a mail server and bandwidth will be significant. Both of these *should* >make the costs for a dedicated co-located server relatively insignificant. >I say should because you may find an ISP who doesn't monitor/limit use of >these resources but they should - especially if they wind up with you as a >client. > >Manar > > From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 13 17:38:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA07648; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA10687 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA29761 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7473 invoked from network); 13 Apr 1998 21:18:19 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 13 Apr 1998 21:18:19 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980413171334.00ede360@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:13:34 -0500 To: Sanjay Arora From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980414014534.00c6b158@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> References: <3.0.5.32.19980413154838.009cab90@stingray.ivision.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:45 AM 4/14/98 +0500, Sanjay Arora wrote: >Thanks for the critique..I guess I deserved that ;). It IS a big amount of >server overhead! Can it really not be implemented as a virtual server? That depends on the capacity of the box doing the hosting, the MTA software, and the available bandwidth. >What should I look for..a leased server? What kind of resources? OS >suggestions, keeping in mind, I wish to use something like Frontpage/Cold >Fusion, to ease the programming of the site. Or should I go in for HTML/CGI >programming directly..CGI WOULD be CPU intensive. I wouldn't think the HTTP issues would be significantly relevant to the mail issues. You might need to explore that separately. You'll want to use qmail or another MTA that is designed to maximize throughput. Sendmail is inadequate for this. Qmail runs under most UNIX and UNIX-like OS's. UNIX environments are generally more flexible and provide greater options for customization than, say, Windows NT. That doesn't mean you might not want to use NT on the Web server and a UNIX on the mail server, however. >Please do help me. Beginners with tall ideas, do need a lot of help, All >they can get, in fact. Perhaps it's not my place to suggest this, but I'd recommend partnering (unless you can afford to hire) with someone (perhaps an ISP) with the technical knowledge, experience, and ambition to bring your idea to fruition. Otherwise, by the time you've finished poking around the 'net looking for the answers, someone else will have implemented your idea. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 13 18:08:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA12068; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:00:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA12049 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [194.112.52.116] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yOuBq-0003uO-00; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:07:11 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980414013631.008b89c0@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:36:31 +0100 To: Sanjay Arora From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Database & E-mail integration capabilities in Win NT/IIS/FP97/98. Cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980414014534.00c6b158@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> References: <3.0.5.32.19980413154838.009cab90@stingray.ivision.co.uk> <3.0.1.32.19980412161821.006ac594@giasdl01.vsnl.net.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What should I look for..a leased server? What kind of resources? OS >suggestions, keeping in mind, I wish to use something like Frontpage/Cold >Fusion, to ease the programming of the site. Or should I go in for HTML/CGI >programming directly..CGI WOULD be CPU intensive. As I implied - the main problem is that 2.3Gb / day is a lot of bandwidth (something like 256k sustained) and sounds like a lot of mails (100,000s). CGIs versus something like cold fusion is not really the issue on this. You're going to need access to a decent mail server set-up was the point. Manar From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 13 23:55:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24603; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:27:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24513 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA14339 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2NC2KJR0>; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:04:15 -0400 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B1085A8@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: HTML in lists Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:04:14 -0400 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't mind intelligent responses. But I hate ones like this. HTML and Digests have nothing to do with each other. The problem is that your digest process doesn't understand HTML If it did, there would be no problem. It's like saying that you can't accept foreign currency. Sure you can, you only have to convert it. Maybe you don't want to, but that's another story. An HTML message can fit into a HTML cognizant digest just as anything else can. Heck, if each message was saved as a separate MIME body part, it might even be a better interface. Ed Woodrick EDCOM -----Original Message----- From: Tom Neff [mailto:tneff@panix.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 1998 7:17 PM To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: HTML in lists HTML simply doesn't work in Digests, and doesn't add much elsewhere. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 00:26:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24170; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24099 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailrus.fv.com ([152.160.88.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA08701 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 05:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thumper.fv.com ([152.160.88.66]) by mailrus.fv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17484; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from nsb@localhost) by thumper.fv.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06829; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Messages.8.5.N.CUILIB.3.45.SNAP.NOT.LINKED.thumper.fv.com.i386.sol551 via MS.5.6.thumper.fv.com.i386_sol551; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:02:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Nathaniel Borenstein To: list-managers , Russ Allbery Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just a point of clarification: Most UNIX users can actually handle text/html pretty easily, but they don't necessarily know how. Here's how: If your mail tool reads ".mailcap" files -- which most UNIX mail tools do, nowadays, either internally or by calling the metamail program -- all you have to do is add something the following line to the file ".mailcap" in your home directory: text/html; cp %s /tmp/latest.html \; netscape -remote "openURL(file:/tmp/latest.html)" \; echo LOOK IN THE NETSCAPE WINDOW Yes, that's all one line. Assuming that you already have the netscape program running in another window, this will do the trick. So I personally don't think that it is reasonable to assume that text/html is beyond the reach of us old fuddy-duddies using UNIX-based mail tools. -- Nathaniel -------- In the long run men hit only what they aim at. Therefore, though they should fail immediately, they had better aim at something high. -- Thoreau Nathaniel Borenstein | FAQ & PGP key: Chief Scientist, First Virtual Holdings | nsb+faq@nsb.fv.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 00:54:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24146; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA23990 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA24176 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 01:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id KAA17675 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:05:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id KAA27142; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:05:35 +0200 Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:05:35 +0200 Message-Id: <199804070805.KAA27142@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> (mcb@postmodern.com) Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch wrote: > standards evolve, markets evolve, and there are good reasons not to remain > tied to the lowest common denominator of the past. I agree with all of this, and I think that mailing list software should be updated to support trends like HTML in e-mail, and make intelligent use of them. HOWEVER I maintain that it MUST be possible for each subscriber to switch off all such features in a simple and straightforward way. > Realistically, the way to get people to adopt the whizzy new technologies is > to create content that requires them. This is exactly what I fear... Microsoft could abuse their strong market position to force everyone who wishes to participate freely in mailing lists to use certain types of e-mail software. That would be very evil. > was unreasonable -- but all you need for e-mail rich text and images is a > standard mass-market PC or Mac, not particularly high-end, a color monitor, a > 28.8K modem (or better) or LAN Internet access, and an up-to-date free or > cheap mail program. That's not too much to ask. It may not be too much to ask in the USA, but you're definately asking too much with respect to some other parts of the world. -- NB. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:41:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA04515; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24219 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.copfer.com (marble.copfer.com [207.206.15.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA00767 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:59:32 -0700 (PDT) From: greg@copfer.com Received: from jewel (greg.copfer.com [207.206.15.76]) by mail.copfer.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/Gissy/copfer2.1) with SMTP id NAA09699 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:04:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980407130028.0080bb50@mail.copfer.com> X-Sender: greg@mail.copfer.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 13:00:28 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: removing majordomo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I don't know how majordomo is configured and it is sitting on our system. Does anyone know where I can find all of the steps I need to remove it? Thanks in Advance, Greg L. greg@copfer.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:42:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24573; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24498 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (lionet.wesley.OZ.AU [192.83.198.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA10731 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kanear.wesley.vic.edu.au ([192.83.198.167]) by lionet.wesley.vic.edu.au (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA10908 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:34:41 +1000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980408134648.007ebb20@wesley.vic.edu.au> X-Sender: kanear.staff.prahran.wesley@wesley.vic.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:46:48 +1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kersti Anear Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980407190239.00ea9b90@armchair.mb.ca> References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My 2 cents too... >>HTML starts to give you methods of better expressing yourself, one of the >>biggest problems in electronic messaging. When you can stop people from putting orange text on red backgrounds, I may agree with you. At the moment, I'm making a lot of good money fixing up problems with formatting from past web "designers"... and the work is not drying up. I think we'll see more headaches here. >I'll admit that enhanced text in email is inevitable, but in its present >form, the problems outweigh the benefits. If enough people like me reject >the flawed form, maybe we'll see ways of handling enhanced text that don't >consume so much bandwidth; that only use it when it's called for, and that >don't exclude readers without the capability. Here.. here.. >>It's a next step beyond the incredibly stupid utilization of punctuation for >>expression. ;-) If you were to see a HTML exchange between people, I think >>that you would be rather surprised at the value. That "stupid" punctuation has resulted in a culture. Entire cultures have been built on stupidity - take the American Constitution for example. 8) Now, look at that... a little smiley and you know that I mean nothing harmful by that statement - just putting my tongue in my cheek... Try getting that effect with formatted text... >I have seen many. In the hands of an experienced designer or typsetter, a >well-crafted document is an effective communications tool. In the hands of >most people, I either see (a) documents with no enhancements at all, but >they're still HTMLified; or (b) a ghastly mish-mash of fonts and colors. If you need html - put up a web page!!! Or, even better, attach a word doc... ||First, just the included text operation. Some HTML mailers put a horizontal ||bar down the left side and change the color/format of the reply text. It ||makes it significantly easier to read than the > characters that get ||so confusing when there have been five or six replies. Nah, I think the lines are no better... >>A choice of font (type, size, and color) can give a unique representation >>of a person, just like a voice does. SO can a choice of smiley, choice of words... >That's a frivolity, entirely unworthy of wasted bandwidth. Yup... Ever heard of annonymity - it's quite nice at times. >> Emphasis is so much easier with >>the ability to italicize or make characters bold. In longer messages, >>setting subject headings in larger text can ease reading. > >Good point. Kudos to the mailers that can do this with tags JUST around >the enhanced text, instead of HTMLifying the entire message. Alas, this is >probably not a standard. This is about the only thing I'd support, but again, necessity has created some very passable alternatives. >>If black and white courier 12 point text is so great, then why are there no >>more courier 12 point printers any more? I put my daisy wheel printer away >>many years ago. Well, actually, there is a call for that sort of equipment in some industries - carbon copies of invoices need those old printers... >I'll bet black and white Courier 12 point text on a video display is more >readable than almost any other font of the same size. A monitor is NOT >printed text. What's highly readable on paper is not necessarily highly >readable on screen. This has been shown a number of times. >>If you don't give a new technology a place to incubate, it will never grow, >>or at least it won't grow on your turf. Sure, you might think it is weed, >>but a worthless bread mold did change the path of modern medicine. Hmm... that's the trouble, HTML in mail has only just in it's embryonic state, it hasn't really been born yet, let alone had a chance at incubation.. (you incubate small, sick, newborn human children too) At this stage, the newely formed HTMl mail embryo is starting to grow with some email clients. There is no standard yet, it hasn't started really forming. Thus, to push it out to a mass group via a mailing list is bound to cause problems. Back to your medicine analogy - if you gave any old mold to people to ingest, you'd quickly find that some got very sick. Instead, we trial things in a closed, controlled environment before we make them readily available. Kersti From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:43:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA04654; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24559 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA06201 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19647 invoked by uid 666); 8 Apr 1998 06:04:34 -0000 Date: 8 Apr 1998 06:04:34 -0000 Message-ID: <19980408060434.19645.qmail@cr.yp.to> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Woodrick, Ed writes: > And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Now, let's get the facts straight here. UNIX is the 70s, not the 60s. And the standard pagers don't just support plain text---they also support b=08bo=08ol=08ld=08df=08fa=08ac=08ce=08e =08= and _=08u_=08n_=08d_=08e_=08r_=08l_=08i_=08n_=08e. (For those of you with deficient MUAs: That was ``boldface'' in bold and ``underline'' underlined. For UNIX readers who saw the effects and would like some vi macros: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/pub/software/exrc.) Of course, the control codes are teletype-compatible, so they'll also work for people who really are stuck in the 60s. ---Dan Smaller, faster, safer than inetd+tcpd. http://pobox.com/~djb/ucspi-tcp.html From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:43:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA04688; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24631 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA08337 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19774 invoked by uid 666); 8 Apr 1998 06:15:45 -0000 Date: 8 Apr 1998 06:15:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19980408061545.19773.qmail@cr.yp.to> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Woodrick, Ed writes: > And for those of you who are > stuck on UNIX using readers that only stand regular text messages, don't > gripe and complain that the rest of us decided to move on and leave you > in the 60's. Now, let's get the facts straight here. UNIX is the 70s, not the 60s. And the standard pagers don't just support plain text---they also support bboollddffaaccee and _u_n_d_e_r_l_i_n_e. (For those of you with deficient MUAs: That was ``boldface'' in bold and ``underline'' underlined. For UNIX readers who saw the effects and would like some vi macros: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/pub/software/exrc.) Of course, the control codes are teletype-compatible, so they'll also work for people who really are stuck in the 60s. [Sorry if this message shows up twice---the first copy was mangled by a deficient MUA that I've been trying out.] ---Dan Smaller, faster, safer than inetd+tcpd. http://pobox.com/~djb/ucspi-tcp.html From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:43:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02848; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA25013 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from curzon.trill-home.com (async251-27.async.duke.edu [152.3.251.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA14603 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by curzon.trill-home.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA00555 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:10:44 -0500 (GMT-0500) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:10:41 -0500 (GMT-0500) From: Subir Grewal To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980407202749.008806d0@mail.idyllmtn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Kynn Bartlett wrote: :At 02:03 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Michael C. Berch wrote: : :>Besides, the screen readers for blind users (for Windows and X) that I know of :>are easily configurable to ignore (or otherwise deal with) rich-text markup. :>(Otherwise how do you think they would cope with Web pages?) : :In general, blind people can't cope well with the web; most :people design for "general case" (i.e., "whatever I had six :months ago"), and the visually impaired have a hard time :using the web in the same way you or I would. Most visually impaired internet users use a combination of a text browser and a braille reader/ speech synthesizer. Most visually impaired users use text browsers because navigation is simpler for them with arrow keys than with a mouse. A number of sight impaired users I have corresponded with use Lynx (with it's nice "numbered links" feature for navigation) and some sort of speech synthesizer to browse the web. Very few of them use a Windows type interface since it is so visually grounded. Very few have access to the, as yet, extremely expensive dictation/voice activated software on the market. hostmaster@trill-home.com + Lynx 2.8 + NeXT/PGP mail + www.crl.com/~subir/ The engines of mass communication, in their highest state of development, assail the eyes and ears of the community on behalf of more beer but not of more schools. -- John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02869; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24190 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from loiosh.kei.com (loiosh.kei.com [192.88.144.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA00455 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17128; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:46:55 -0400 (EDT) To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B04F521@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Christopher Davis Date: 07 Apr 1998 10:46:54 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Woodrick, Ed"'s message of "Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:28:45 -0500" Message-ID: X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 19.16 - "Lille" X-Face: I8Alb*-ZdjN\/8k_QR,^l^m6GQB'S-B:}DVP].1HOw#tx:TX$k;Wl;4zqjWR|-jheM#? &beRf(!|0b0m=M~=%.Am>"QEY.(#Ys.%"s?z,hmwp&y0%p>9+T X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk EW> == Ed Woodrick EW> Lead, Follow, or get out of the way! My rule of thumb for any content--rich or otherwise--is "does this supply sufficient value per byte to justify distributing it?" This applies to trimming quoted text, not needlessly duplicating the entire text of a message twice (once with plenty of markup, as if I were incapable of choosing an appropriate font size myself), animated GIFs of a dancing walrus as part of my .signature file, etc. One of the highest-volume lists I'm on is a beta test list for an editor which, among other facilities, has a MIME-aware mail and newsreader which can display inline images, play sounds, and so forth. That beta list often gets messages with GIF images of display bugs or multilanguage display problems; clearly, these are appropriate content for that list. However, those images are cropped to the smallest useful area, to save everyone bandwidth and storage space. HTML, when used to mark up text in email, is of dubious value at best; using it to apply minor font changes or the occasional colored word is a waste of time, space, and effort. -- Christopher Davis Geographic locations in DNS! From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02899; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24892 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunams.usma.army.mil (sunams.usma.army.mil [129.29.199.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA09722 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orator.usma.edu (webmstr.usma.army.mil) by sunams.usma.army.mil (4.1/25-eef) id AA27182; Wed, 8 Apr 98 15:22:29 EDT Message-Id: <352BCDA0.5C237CC4@orator.usma.edu> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:18:56 -0400 From: "Erich L. Markert" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <3.0.5.32.19980408085803.009e3ab0@mail.idyllmtn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The problem with this is that not all mail clients are MIME compatible and some of those that aren't compatible don't ignore the MIME directives like they are suppose to. Sometime ago, I implemented some changes to majordomo 1.93 that enabled the multipart digest MIME type for all digests. While this worked like a champ for Pegasus, and other MIME compatible clients it did not work for MS Mail users. Matter of fact a lot of my MS Mail subscribers complained that they could no longer view any part of the digest mail messages. Bottom line, being able to send specific MIME enabled messages, eg. HTML, multipart digest is incredibly useful. However, this capability should be provided in such a way that the subscriber can pick which format they receive messages in - be it HTML, multipart digest, plain text, etc. This choice should be made at subscription time and then it should be fire and forget. Kynn Bartlett wrote: > > At 11:19 p.m. 04/07/98 -0700, Todd Day wrote: > >I like the idea of HTML mail so much, > >though, that I have yet another script that takes the plaintext Digest > >version and does a damn good job (if I do say so myself) of making a > >very useful HTML document out of it that I ship to about 10% of my > >readership (the amount of people who actually use an HTML capable > >mailer). [description snipped] > > This sounds very cool. Would you be able to make this > available for other people to use? :) > > -- > __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services > | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community > | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ > | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) > |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com -- __________________________________________________________ Mr. Erich L. Markert markert@www.usma.edu USMA Webmaster TEL (914)938-6463 Directorate of Information Management FAX (914)938-7308 United States Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 "If you put three drops of poison into a 100 percent pure Java, you get ... Windows. If you put a few drops of Java into Windows, you still have Windows." -- Sun Microsystems CEO, Scott McNealy From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02912; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24693 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moose.ncia.net (moose.ncia.net [207.140.8.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA26546 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from foote.ncia.net (ncia82n.ncia.net [207.141.176.82]) by moose.ncia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA13234; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804081255.IAA13234@moose.ncia.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Webbers Communications" To: Darren Wyn Rees , list-managers@greatcircle.com, owner-NEW-LIST@listserv.nodak.edu Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:54:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: New List In-reply-to: <353a621e.7118199@post.demon.co.uk> References: <199804041845.NAA27595@moose.ncia.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Darren Wyn Rees wrote: > I make the assumption here that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same > gkfoote@webbers.com that is responsible for www.listex.com? Webbers Communications owns and maintains www.listex.com and has since The List Exchange's inception last year. > I also make the assumption that gkfoote@webbers.com is the same > gkfoote@webbers.com that mails me advertisements (spam, > depending on one's point of view) every time I post to Marty > Hoag's New-List List? You assume correctly... except as regards your implications of our disseminating spam and advertisements. Let me say clearly right up front: *We do not send spam*. We do have an autoresponder set up to send those who post their list info to Marty Hoag's NEW-LIST a short text file on how to add their list to The List Exchange online database. Clearly this is not in dispute. So, what is in dispute here? Is our practice of sending precisely targeted autoresponses by e-mail considered spamming? Well, let's address this question. Our purpose in targeting those who post to the aforementioned NEW-LIST with an informative e-mail about listex is to *maintain our internet integrity* while offering those wishing to promote their publications the opportunity to do so in an advertising-free environment like The List Exchange. How does inviting list owners to participate rather than simply adding them to our database as they appear in NEW-LIST maintain our integrity? Because of the great debate over copyright issues online. Because we fear being sued for copyright infringement if we simply take the info from NEW-LIST and post it to the listex site. Not necessarily sued by NEW-LIST - indeed, Marty Hoag and I have exchanged e-mail in the recent past over the issue we discuss here and he has declined to disagree with my point of view - but perhaps sued by the list owners themselves. After all, their posts to Marty's list are their own copyrighted articles. Who are we to argue with copyright laws by copying and presenting information owned by someone else? So, are we spamming? In spirit, in intent and in reality... no. Yet, there is a kernel of truth at the center of Darren Wyn Rees' post. Its best stated by the following excerpt; > Can't you figure a way to stop sending auto-replies to everyone > who posts to the New List List? (It's starting to peeve me > after the twentieth canned ad. Darren, we have temporarily disabled the autoresponder in question, because of the fact that it repeats its message to those who post to Marty's list more than once... not as a reaction to the spam implication you raised. It is indeed a waste of bandwidth to repeat this autoresponse multiple posters to NEW-LIST. So, until we can configure things so that repeat posters to NEW-LIST don't get multiple copies of our autoresponder text I remain, silently (at least as regards NEW-LIST output), Gary K. Foote, Webbers Communications From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02925; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24252 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.squonk.net (duchess.squonk.net [204.141.184.22]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA12805 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from domino.squonk.net (kitty@domino.squonk.net [204.141.184.71]) by mailhost.squonk.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27125; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (kitty@localhost) by domino.squonk.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28017; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT) From: MowMow Kitty To: Lawrence Weeks cc: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" , "Woodrick, Ed" Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <19980407022807.47872@dm2.deskmedia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As long as this is being talked about, I have a question. How do I disable HTML? I am using Majordomo 4.94 on Solaris 2.5. I, too, can't stand HTML in my messages, they just take up extra bandwidth. I didn't know that I could shut it off from my list. Thanks! Rebecca -------------------------------- Join the Meow Recipes List! majordomo@meow.net with subscribe recipes or subscribe recipes-digest in the body. Visit my cat page http://www.meow.net -------------------------------- On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Lawrence Weeks wrote: > Once upon a time (Wed Apr 01), Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > > Why do yall go through so much trouble to not utilize existing > > Internet messaging standards? > > The point of a mailing list is to exchange information with other > people, just the same as a web page. The web has standards, such as > HTML, so everyone can communicate. A browser (or, if you're Microsoft, > the operating system) parses HTML as a minimum cost of entry. However, > this is not true of email. The bare minimum for email is plain old > text. The point of a mailing list, in general, is to enable a large > number of people to communicate with one another effectively. Why > complicate things needlessly? What's the point? To send a message in > a pretty color or font? Why, and at what cost? As I say to people who > advertise their brand new heavily "optimized" for brand X browser > web page, what's your goal? To showcase and promote a proprietary > technology and limit your web page to less than half the web? Shouldn't > your goal be to communicate effectively with the most people possible? > > This is the primary reason I reject all HTML email. It offers no real > value on a mailing list, and unnecessarily complicates communications. > Likewise, I reject email with attachments. If you want to make a > nicely formatted document available, don't send it to a thousand > people, of whom maybe 10% actually want to see it. Send a URL. > > But there's a very pragmatic side too: I don't want to archive it, > back it up on tape, index it for searching, etc. Your message was > over 6200 characters long, let's break that down. The plain text of > what you actually wrote was ~ 1152 bytes. You quoted ~ 1143 bytes of > the original message (I know, netiquette on quoting is archaic). And > your HTML took up the rest, ~ 3756 bytes. > > So, of the 6K, only 1K or so was actually worthwhile. If everybody > did the same, that's a lot of wasted bytes. Let's say the mailing > list has 1000 subscribers, and 100 messages a day... that adds up > really fast, on the delivery side, on the archival side, and what > value does it really add? We can have fonts and colors and bold and > italic text. Wow. Thanks, but no thanks. > > > HTML is here to stay. If you want to provide a service to you list > > users, then you probably should start thinking about how to work > > WITH your subscribers than against them. > > Yes, educate them as to when it is appropriate to use the latest > whiz-bang technology, and when not to. Just because you *can* send > bloated HTML email, doesn't mean you *should*. I've never had a list > member complain about not being able to send HTML email, and have > had lots of them thank me for filtering it out. > > Larry > -- > Lawrence Weeks "Audaces fortuna juvat." dev@deskmedia.com > From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA02938; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA24158 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA14966 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2NC2KHYT>; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:40:51 -0400 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:40:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="---- =_NextPart_001_01BD622A.C7A3FFF0" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD622A.C7A3FFF0 Content-Type: text/plain My last message on the topic. First, quite a few people ask why I send two copies of the text in my message. Well, one is for those who can read HTML and the other is for those underprivileged people of the world. Is it redundant? Yep. It's a transition setting. And for those of you who are so worried about bandwidth, why did you include me on the recipients list? If I'm subscribed to the list, I'll receive the message. So, I would only assume that you don't think that bandwidth is that great of a deal, or else you wouldn't have used up that much of mine. And sure, I know that replying to the list and the sender is considered proper etiquette on some lists, but just because it is considered proper, doesn't mean that it should be continued. It only makes sense when the list processing and delivery is extremely slow. Otherwise it is a waste of bandwidth! And yes, I know that I didn't convey any additional information in HTML on that message, and yes, I could have sent the message without it. But look at your messages again. How many "worthless" words were in your message. If you care about wasted bandwidth, why do you include all of those extra words? And for the gentleman who indicates that reading mono-spaced fonts is considered by professionals as the best method for presentation to read, go find some more professionals. I know of no one (aside from you) who thinks that a monospaced single color font is the easiest to read. How many books have you seen published in Courier? On the other hand, monospaced fonts are an artifact of the early era of mechanization, the typewriter. Gutenberg even used proportional fonts on his printing press. Think about it. When the auto was invented, people said that the horse was better. When the personal computer was invented, people scoffed at it's use. When the GUI was invented, people complained about the wasted use of processor cycles. Well, scoff all you want. Many people are trying to get computers to fit into the human way of doing things as opposed to the computer way. Humans don't write in monospace fonts. It also won't be long before the mail lists become filled with full multimedia messages. Combinations of text, audio, and video to best convey information. And yes, you won't be using a 28.8 dialup to get there. Other technologies will eventually catch on and provide high speed pipes into the home and office. P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many people with responses that are grasping at straws! ------ =_NextPart_001_01BD622A.C7A3FFF0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists

My last message on = the topic.


First, quite a few = people ask why I = send two copies of the text in my message. Well, one is for those who = can read HTML and the other is for those underprivileged people of the = world. Is it redundant? Yep. It's a transition setting.

And for those of you = who are so worried about bandwidth, why did you include me on the = recipients list? If I'm subscribed to the list, I'll receive the = message. So, I would only assume that you don't think that bandwidth is that great of a deal, or = else you wouldn't have used up that much of mine. And sure, I know that = replying to the list and the sender is considered proper etiquette on = some lists, but just because it is considered proper, doesn't mean that = it should be continued. It only makes sense when the list processing = and delivery is extremely slow. Otherwise it is a waste of = bandwidth!

And yes, I know that I = didn't convey any additional information in HTML on that message, and = yes, I could have sent the message without it. But look at your = messages again. How many "worthless" words were in your = message. If you care = about wasted bandwidth, why do you include all of those extra words?

And for the gentleman = who indicates that reading mono-spaced fonts is considered by = professionals as the best method for presentation to read, go find some = more professionals. I know of no one (aside from you) who thinks that a = monospaced single = color font is the = easiest to read. How many books have you seen published in Courier? = On = the other hand, = monospaced = fonts are an artifact of the early era of mechanization, the = typewriter. Gutenberg even used proportional fonts on his printing = press.

Think about = it. When the auto was invented, = people said that the horse was better. When the personal computer was = invented, people scoffed at it's use. When the GUI was invented, people = complained about the wasted use of processor cycles. Well, scoff all = you want. Many people are trying to get computers to fit  into the = human way of doing things as opposed to the computer way. Humans don't = write in monospace fonts. It also won't be long before the mail lists = become filled with full multimedia messages. Combinations of text, = audio, and video to best convey information. And yes, you won't be = using a 28.8 dialup to get there. Other technologies will eventually = catch on and provide high speed pipes into the home and = office.

P.S. I know I must be = doing something right, to have upset so many people with responses that = are grasping at straws!


------ =_NextPart_001_01BD622A.C7A3FFF0-- From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 01:44:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA00748; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id AAA00709 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pm03sm.pmm.mci.net (pm03sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA04437 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris (usr9-dialup27.mix1.Sacramento.mci.net) by PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27035) with ESMTP id <0ER800C0I2N7T1@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:59:34 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:54:04 -0700 From: Chris Newman Subject: Seeking recommendations for listmailing software To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <0ER800C0J2N8T1@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We want to be able to offer our website visitors the opportunity to subscribe to any of, perhaps, dozens of moderated discussion lists. We need to be able to create new lists on demand, without having to bug a human to manually set up each one. The challenge is that no one here is sharp on listmailers. We have plenty of UNIX and sysadmin talent who can set up any software, but unfortunately, I'm not one of them, so I'm groping in the dark to find the listmailing software which we need. The moderators, while dedicated on their respective topics, are complete novices at wrangling mailing lists. As near as I can tell, we need to have GUI's (web page interfaces) for all functions, including admin, moderating and subscribe functions. A GUI for moderating would be optional if the procedure wasn't that difficult to learn. A bonus challenge is that we also need the ability to have headers and footers automatically inserted into outgoing digests and be able to do that with a GUI, too. We are currently running qmail to send a single newsletter to one large list, but from what I can tell, this isn't going to cut it for the new discussion lists feature. I could be wrong. Is there a particular program or suite of programs which you would recommend and where can we find it? As an extra-special bonus challenge, since we have no money, it needs to be freeware. Many thanks in advance. Chris Newman. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 07:23:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA16578; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA14104 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21855; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980414095844.15900@wombat> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:58:44 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108583@pumba.ed-com.com> <3.0.5.32.19980407190239.00ea9b90@armchair.mb.ca> <3.0.5.32.19980408134648.007ebb20@wesley.vic.edu.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980408134648.007ebb20@wesley.vic.edu.au>; from Kersti Anear on Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:46:48PM +1000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 01:46:48PM +1000, Kersti Anear wrote: > If you need html - put up a web page!!! Or, even better, attach a word doc... To the first sentiment, absolutely. To the second, please, NO! Word is a proprietary format controlled by a single vendor (and, I might add, monopolistic, predatory, greedy vendor) and is only intelligible to people running proprietary software. Its use on the 'net is contrary to the entire spirit of open standards that built the Internet -- and in fact, the existence of disparate formats like Word, WordPerfect, etc., is one of the motivating factors for formats like HTML and PDF. Not to mention that a single page of text in Word occupies a *lot* more space than its ASCII text equivalent. So please, no proprietary-format attachments! ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 08:07:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA02035; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA02028 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Default (pool047-max1.ontario-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.151.47]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13744 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804141459.HAA13744@norway.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: sbrooks@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Sam Brooks Subject: Re: New List/webbers.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary Foote asked; >So, what is in dispute here? Is our practice of sending precisely >targeted autoresponses by e-mail considered spamming? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must BE A DUCK!!! The keyword here, Mr Foote, is UNSOLICITED. If I have not requested it and it ends up in my mailbox--then it's SPAM. Falls in the same category as junk mail(unrequested) and those ungodly telemarketing phone calls offering a FREE vacation to Tahiti. You are trying to defend an indefensible position. .02 worth Sam sbrooks@earthlink.net From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 09:37:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA08863; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA08820 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25790 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:20:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA21174 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:20:36 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18771 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:20:29 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199804141620.LAA18771@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:20:29 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The existence of disparate formats like Word, WordPerfect, etc., is one > of the motivating factors for formats like HTML and PDF. As far as I know, PDF is a proprietary format and requires proprietary software, unless you have the Adobe engine you cannot create a PDF file. HTML at least has the virtue of having multiple vendors supporting both the generation and rendering of it. (It has numerous flaws, but I don't know that they are relevant to this entire thread.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 11:09:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA17168; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA16969 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA27168; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:05:31 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Tue, 14 Apr 98 09:05 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00550; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:52:04 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:52:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: "Woodrick, Ed" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many > people with responses that are grasping at straws! Speaking of people grasping at straws. 1) you have a reply to set to yourself, so people assume that you want a responce, 2) not only do your messages include duplicate and triplicate and some times even qudruplicate information (triplicate and quadruplicate due to excesive quoting), but your verbage is excessive. (or to put it much less sucsinctly (less briefly and to the point) you use way to many words (I have used this as an example of how good a person can be at wasting space with words, I'm not as good at it as you are). 3) you quote entire messages without responding directly to them, 4) you call it grasping at straws when a person disagrees with you, but maybe you are the one grasping at straws. 5) a message sent to you personaly as well as the list wastes bandwidth of one message to one person, assumeing there are 100 people subscribed to the list duplicating everything you type in a form that takes aproximately 1.5 times as much space, wastes 1.5 messages to 100 people. Or the equivelent of 150 times as much wasted bandwidth as that of a message sent to you, and the list. Now who is grasping at straws? Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 Anarchy may not be the best form of government, but it's better than no government at all. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 12:38:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02514; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA02483 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yPAQV-0002jp-00; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:27:23 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980414165540.008aa460@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:55:40 +0100 To: "Woodrick, Ed" From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Arial8080,0000,0000My last message on the topic. Thankfully I have no bandwidth concerns (under-utlised T1 and all that) and use an email client that could see all you formatting in all it's "glory". Yuck - enough to stop me half-way through the first paragraph. Manar From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 13:39:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA00935; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00910 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop00.execpc.com (pop00.execpc.com [169.207.1.27]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id NAA16349 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:19:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fnord.execpc.com (windowpane.execpc.com [169.207.1.11]) by pop00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id NAA00579 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:19:36 -0500 Received: by fnord.execpc.com id NAA01716; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:19:48 -0500 Message-ID: <19980414131946.B31256@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:19:46 -0500 From: Aaron Schrab To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Mail-Followup-To: list-managers References: <8158.891921888@monkeys.com> <3529B3C9.28C40BE@postmodern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: ; from Nathaniel Borenstein on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:02:25AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:02 -0400, 07 Apr. 1998, Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: > Just a point of clarification: Most UNIX users can actually handle > text/html pretty easily, but they don't necessarily know how. Here's > how: > text/html; cp %s /tmp/latest.html \; netscape -remote > "openURL(file:/tmp/latest.html)" \; echo LOOK IN THE NETSCAPE WINDOW Great, now the message is being displayed in a Netscape window a few miles away. My eyes are pretty good, but not *that* good. :) And then there are the people who read mail on Unix machines that don't have Netscape (or even X) installed. -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant -- Londo Mollari From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 13:59:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA11607; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA11401 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30487 invoked from network); 14 Apr 1998 18:15:05 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 14 Apr 1998 18:15:05 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980414141031.00ebe170@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:10:31 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Voorhis Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:40 AM 4/7/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >And for those of you who are so worried about bandwidth, why did you >include me on the recipients list? [...] >And sure, I know that replying to the list and the >sender is considered proper etiquette on some lists, but just because it >is considered proper, doesn't mean that it should be continued. Perhaps, but it IS considered proper etiquette on this list. Whether it should or should not be continued is something for the list moderator to determine. > It only >makes sense when the list processing and delivery is extremely slow. Yes. You'll note some responses to your original post showed up nearly a week later. I'd say that's rather slow. >Otherwise it is a waste of bandwidth! Only to the recipient, perhaps. Redundant formatting, however, affects every list subscriber and the system performing the list distribution. >And yes, I know that I didn't convey any additional information in HTML >on that message, and yes, I could have sent the message without it. But >look at your messages again. How many "worthless" words were in your >message. If you care about wasted bandwidth, why do you include all of >those extra words? Speak for yourself. If anyone is being unecessarily verbose, it's you. And we're talking about formatting, NOT content. We're talking about formatting that ads little or no value, with considerable overhead and associated limitations. Writing concisely has nothing to do with it. >And for the gentleman who indicates that reading mono-spaced fonts is >considered by professionals as the best method for presentation to read, >go find some more professionals. I assume you're referring to me. If you had read my post more carefully, you would have realized I was referring to screen fonts, NOT fonts in general. Here is what I said. Note how you have made a fool of yourself: -I'll bet black and white Courier 12 point text on a video display is more -readable than almost any other font of the same size. A monitor is NOT -printed text. What's highly readable on paper is not necessarily highly -readable on screen. Note that I clearly distinguished between video displays and printed text. Of course, this argument is silly, because it supports my position more than it does yours. I can select any font I wish within my mailer, ostensibly to choose one that's easiest for me to read. If you use HTML in your message to me, you can override that, thus forcing me to endure a font that is _harder_ to read. Therefore, from a readability point of view, in this case, it is better not to have HTML. >It >also won't be long before the mail lists become filled with full >multimedia messages. You are correct. As I said before, I don't doubt that HTML and other content is inevitable. However, in its present form, it is so flawed as to be unreasonable to accept. When universal standards for HTML-in-email have been established, and are generally supported by MUA's and list and list-digest software, then I will happily accept HTML. Until then, I say no, and my s*bscribers are pleased with that policy. And isn't THAT really the ultimate goal -- that your s*bscribers be kept happy? >P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many >people with responses that are grasping at straws! Oh, come on, admit it: You've been trying unsuccessfully for months to turn off the HTML "feature" in your mailer, so now you're left desperately defending it as if it was a good thing. I mean, anyone who formats a message with a tiny light-blue font, and randomly peppers it with oversized red letters and words, couldn't possibly have effective communication in mind... Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 14:14:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA02506; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA02481 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yPAQW-0002jp-02; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:27:24 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980414170658.008aa480@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:06:58 +0100 To: Chris Newman From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Seeking recommendations for listmailing software Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <0ER800C0J2N8T1@PM03SM.PMM.MCI.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Is there a particular program or suite of programs which you would recommend >and where can we find it? As an extra-special bonus challenge, since we have no >money, it needs to be freeware. That pretty much determines it - I'd say you want majordomo for the mailing list software (supports all you've mentioned) and majorcool to give you the web interface to majordomo. It will let you edit the config for lists to put on headers etc., modify the intro messages, approve messages awaiting approval etc. etc. Out of the box there's no way to auto-make lists but there ae hooks and a script to add this. BTW - do you need it running on multiple domains? We have a set-up built (extension to majorcool + some shell scripts and a new wrapper) on top of majordomo and majorcool + the exim MTA which might match what you want but I'm not sure it's clean enough for others to use ... Manar From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 15:07:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA01837; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA01747 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25114; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980414164406.43303@wombat> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:44:06 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List Managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <199804141620.LAA18771@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <199804141620.LAA18771@celery.tssi.com>; from Mike Nolan on Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 11:20:29AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Apr 14, 1998 at 11:20:29AM -0500, Mike Nolan wrote: > > The existence of disparate formats like Word, WordPerfect, etc., is one > > of the motivating factors for formats like HTML and PDF. > > As far as I know, PDF is a proprietary format and requires proprietary > software, unless you have the Adobe engine you cannot create a PDF file. I"m aware of that. It's a Bad Thing. But PDF beats the pants off Word/WordPerfect et.al. despite it, and there *are* readers for it freely available (in source code) form. I would suspect that tools to create it aren't far behind. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 16:08:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA22529; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA22331 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id PAA29770; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804142254.PAA29770@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: sbrooks@earthlink.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <199804141459.HAA13744@norway.it.earthlink.net> (message from Sam Brooks on Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: New List/webbers.com Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Brooks Gary Foote asked; >So, what is in dispute here? Is our practice of sending precisely >targeted autoresponses by e-mail considered spamming? The keyword here, Mr Foote, is UNSOLICITED. If I have not requested it and it ends up in my mailbox--then it's SPAM. I haven't seen the autoresponse mail in question so I don't know if I'd consider it spam, but I disagree with your reasons for saying it must be spam. If Gary's explaination is accurate, what is happening is, someone posts to a list to announce a new list and then he sends back an acknowledgement that the post was received and describes the other features associated with that site. If the explaination is off, then perhaps the situation is that the other features are commercial ones or that there is no reason to expect an acknowldgement from your post. In other words, there is context involved here. The mere fact that there was an autoresponse does not make it spam. This particular situation may or may not be an example of spam; I don't know enough to decide. If sending an unsolicited autoresponce is spam, then what about my vacation program? When I go out of town and don't have email access, I set the vacation program to send anyone who mails to me a letter I've prewritten. Back when I ran my mailing list out of my personal account I would occaionsionally get complaints (or just comments) that I was sending list instructions to people who weren't writing about hte list. Plus I would put a couple lines of personal info in the letters, like when I was way behind on email due to a death in the family, or giving my dates of travel when I'm out of town. Of all the people who made comments about my vacation message, not a single person considered it to be spam. It never came up. Note also that people got exactly one message until I reset the program (which I did each time I changed the message). [Gary take note: unix can do this easily...keep a list of the recipients and only send to people who haven't already gotton one. Erase that list every few months or when you update the message.] Anyway, I hope you see my point. I don't know if Gary Foote is sending out spam or not, but the fact that the messages were techincally unsolicited does not, in and of itself, make them spam. You have to have more information to make that claim. And, trust me, I'm quite anti-spam; I don't accept "bulkmailers" claims responsibility and I don't accept loopholes. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 17:06:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA05146; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA28705 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03466 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA01127; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:20:50 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Tue, 14 Apr 98 15:20 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA02266; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:07:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:07:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: Aaron Schrab Cc: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <19980414131946.B31256@fnord.guru.execpc.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Aaron Schrab wrote: > At 09:02 -0400, 07 Apr. 1998, Nathaniel Borenstein wrote: > > Just a point of clarification: Most UNIX users can actually handle > > text/html pretty easily, but they don't necessarily know how. Here's > > how: > > > text/html; cp %s /tmp/latest.html \; netscape -remote > > "openURL(file:/tmp/latest.html)" \; echo LOOK IN THE NETSCAPE WINDOW > > Great, now the message is being displayed in a Netscape window a few > miles away. My eyes are pretty good, but not *that* good. :) > > And then there are the people who read mail on Unix machines that don't > have Netscape (or even X) installed. You should be able to get Lynx to display in a similar manner. I don't know if you would really want to do that though... Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 "That unit is a woman." "A mass of conflicting impulses." -- Spock and Nomad, "The Changeling", stardate 3541.9 From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 14 17:22:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA06492; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA06178 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03546 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:27:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tneffgp ([160.43.147.201]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id RAA24615; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:27:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: HTML in lists Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:27:49 -0400 Message-ID: <000201bd67fc$f06b3820$c9932ba0@tneffgp.bloomberg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199804140801.BAA02314@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Woodrick, Ed" wrote: > I don't mind intelligent responses. But I hate ones like this. Very nice. Trust me, this thread isn't winning any prizes so far. I have been managing lists for a loooong time, so you might show some respect. > HTML and > Digests have nothing to do with each other. One might wish this were so, but HTML is a distinct MIME type for describing documents, while Digests conflate messages into one omnibus, so MIME types like HTML become a problem. > The problem is that > your digest > process doesn't understand HTML If it did, there would be no problem. And the problem with this, O connoisseur of "intelligent responses," is that the "digest process" isn't _mine_, it resides on the Majordomo server machine (in this case Greatcircle.com, but in the cases of the lists run by members here, many other machines worldwide). Majordomo in its present form simply doesn't understand or handle HTML and binary stuff in a useful way come Digest time. We can imagine several ways to do it, with multiparts and so on, and the programming folks over at majordomo-workers discuss this every week, but (a) it's a big controversy because nobody is quite sure whether members really want to get a basket of individually-openable attachments instead of their friendly old text Digests; and (b) regardless of how that issue gets decided, the _existing_ Majordomo installations -- the ones that List-Managers members are here to discuss running, remember? -- mostly don't do any of these future things. HTML and binary attachments just look like HASH in Digests from real-world servers. Every list administrator on a list that has a Digest form should make sure she or he receives both the Digest and individual messages, so as to be aware of potential problems. And I urge list admins not to accept the lazy, blinkered logic of the "get a real MUA" people who want to blame readers first. Our responsibility is to serve our readers - to make it as easy as possible for as many people as possible to enjoy the core content of the lists we offer. Where that content is logically text-based, as is true for most lists, we should standardize around text until widely available list processors offering a CHOICE of more enriched formats, for interested readers, is available. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 04:40:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA09071; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chiba.netxn.com (chiba.netxn.com [209.135.12.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA29698 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsk (bak-ppp-6.netxn.com [209.135.13.23]) by chiba.netxn.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04981; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35344B64.EA45763C@netxn.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:53:40 -0700 From: Linda Allison Organization: Little to none! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Voorhis CC: "Woodrick, Ed" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.5.32.19980414141031.00ebe170@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > At 09:40 AM 4/7/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > >P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many > >people with responses that are grasping at straws! Me save bandwidth. Few words. We just don't like it Ed! I would not have HTML go out on my list...Period. End of story. Linda "Credentials highly questionable" From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 04:51:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA09308; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA09161 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03272; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980415065821.59698@wombat> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 06:58:21 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1 In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com>; from Woodrick, Ed on Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:40:50AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Apr 07, 1998 at 09:40:50AM -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many > people with responses that are grasping at straws! No, the reason you've upset so many people is that you have wandered into a conversation populated with people who have been running mailing lists for many, many years, and/or who have a deep understanding of not only the technical but psychosocial aspects of mailing lists, and you have suggested something that many of them think is a really bad idea. You have provided no solid, defensible reasons for doing it other than "it's possible to do it", which is, of course, no justification whatsoever, and you have belittled people whose qualifications and experience dwarf your own. I think that about covers it. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 05:03:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA09306; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA02045 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:54:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA04573 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 04:56:19 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Tue, 14 Apr 98 21:56 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA04319 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:50:28 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:50:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: spam definition (was Re: New List/webbers.com) In-Reply-To: <199804142254.PAA29770@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The standard definition that I use for spam is that it is unsolicited, bulk mail or posting. If I were to send a message out to each person that posts to a list that I am subscribed to it would be spam. If the list is set up to acknowledge the posts, the response would not be spam. The same goes with an vacation program. If my vacation program catches all list postings, then it is spam. If it only catches messages directed at me personally it is not. It may not be very easy to determine if a message is spam or not, but generally I feel that if it is unsolicited, it almost certainly is spam. Sometimes you don't realise that you asked for something mind you. Auto-responders that are set up to respond to direct mail are not spam producers, mind you, they can be used to mail-bomb, or spam a person. Auto-responders that grab addresses from messages not directed at the auto-responder itself are spam producers. I have probably said the same thing many, times here, and could have cut down on what I have said, but I didn't so I guess that is something that will have to be dealt with when it is... Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 Quigley's Law: Whoever has any authority over you, no matter how small, will atttempt to use it. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 05:07:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA09466; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id WAA26798 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24723 invoked by uid 500); 15 Apr 1998 05:34:11 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108588@pumba.ed-com.com> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: "Woodrick, Ed"'s message of "Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:40:50 -0400" Date: 14 Apr 1998 22:34:11 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 80 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Woodrick, Ed writes: > I know of no one (aside from you) who thinks that a monospaced single > color font is the easiest to read. Single color? No, I use multiple colors on a regular basis. I do so by having my e-mail client mark up incoming messages with colors according to quoting levels, and it does so consistently, using the same colors across every single message I read so that I can take advantage of the immediate visual cue. I can assure you that is superior in every way to letting every single person I correspond with choose their own random colors for their messages. > How many books have you seen published in Courier? First of all, Courier is a horrible monospaced font for reading on a computer screen because the character strokes aren't bold enough. It's far too spindly to make a good display font, and the fact that some broken operating systems seem to think it's a suitable monospaced font indicates that those operating systems are broken, not that monospaced fonts are. That's one of the primary differences between good display fonts and good print fonts; good display fonts are bolder. Second of all, how many books have you seen published on a computer screen? The correct font choices for presentation on a relatively-low-resolution *light projecting* surface with flicker (below the level of human perception) are NOT the same as the correct font choices for presentation on an extremely high-resolution reflective surface with higher contrast than a computer screen and the additional benefit of ink bleed to smooth out the resolution even further. Until you consider the differences between a computer screen, you are expressing opinions on a topic about which you have obviously given no thought whatsoever, and the only thing you're accomplishing is making yourself look foolish in public. > Think about it. When the auto was invented, people said that the horse > was better. When the personal computer was invented, people scoffed at > it's use. When the GUI was invented, people complained about the wasted > use of processor cycles. Well, scoff all you want. Are you familiar with the phrase "argumentum ad novitatem"? > Many people are trying to get computers to fit into the human way of > doing things as opposed to the computer way. Humans don't write in > monospace fonts. Oh now that's a stunning argument. Humans also don't send the same letter to a thousand people for several dozen different letters on a daily basis. Whoops. Sorry folks, list-managers has to be shut down. After all, humans don't run mailing lists, and Ed Woodrick's decreed that we're supposed to make computers more like humans, so they've got to go. > It also won't be long before the mail lists become filled with full > multimedia messages. I'll allow multimedia messages in my lists as soon as the people on my lists want them. They don't. So I'm not. Eventually, I'm quite sure that you're right, but that will be after there's some standardization of transport, after they aren't as much of an imposition as they are now to people with limited dialin access, and after the initial thrill has worn off so that people use them when APPROPRIATE rather than including tons of crap in their messages every single time they feel like it. > P.S. I know I must be doing something right, to have upset so many > people with responses that are grasping at straws! Oh, of course. How could I have been so blind. Never mind all of the previous, and ignore the fact that this person's arguments make no logical sense, are based on blind assertion, demonstrate no logical thought, miss obvious basic concepts, and serve as textbook examples of standard logical fallacies. He managed to piss people off. Obviously he's not only right, but he's the very model of perspicuity. Yours in stunned admiration, -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 12:09:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA19788; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA19777 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA15516 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (grev.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.108]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06442; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980414100243.00918b60@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:02:43 -0700 To: greg@copfer.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: removing majordomo Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980407130028.0080bb50@mail.copfer.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:00 p.m. 04/07/98 -0400, greg@copfer.com wrote: >Hello, >I don't know how majordomo is configured and it is sitting on our system. >Does anyone know where I can find all of the steps I need to remove it? Clean up your /etc/aliases file(s), remove the directories it uses, get rid of any userids and groupids associated with it, and check sendmail.cf. --Kynn -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 13:08:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06438; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA19633 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA01655 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 10:56:59 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: HTML list filter for majordomo Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9804141056.aa16379@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >As long as this is being talked about, I have a question. How do I >disable HTML? I am using Majordomo 4.94 on Solaris 2.5. I, too, can't >stand HTML in my messages, they just take up extra bandwidth. I didn't >know that I could shut it off from my list. This really belongs on majordomo-users, BTW: add the following to the config file for the list. taboo_body << END /^Content\-Type:\s+text\/html/i END Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 13:22:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06591; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA20188 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA20646 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pumba.ed-com.com (pumba.ed-com.com [38.253.238.105]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA03880 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pumba.ed-com.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2NC2KWAM>; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:57:55 -0400 Message-ID: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com> From: "Woodrick, Ed" To: list-managers Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:57:54 -0400 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And there are probably still people who have terminals that don't use lower case. SHOULD WE KEEP TYPING IN UPPERCASE TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO READ? -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Schrab [mailto:aaron+lm@schrab.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:20 PM To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists And then there are the people who read mail on Unix machines that don't have Netscape (or even X) installed. -- Aaron Schrab aaron@schrab.com http://www.execpc.com/~aarons/ The universe is already mad. Anything else would be redundant -- Londo Mollari From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 13:37:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA17307; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA17186 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12355; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:35:28 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Wed, 15 Apr 98 10:35 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by armispian.ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06771; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:24:37 -0700 Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: Mike Nolan Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199804141620.LAA18771@celery.tssi.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Mike Nolan wrote: > > The existence of disparate formats like Word, WordPerfect, etc., is one > > of the motivating factors for formats like HTML and PDF. > > As far as I know, PDF is a proprietary format and requires proprietary > software, unless you have the Adobe engine you cannot create a PDF file. I could be wrong, but my understanding is that PDF is a ``standard''. Curently to my knowledge there is no ``distiller'' other than the Adobe one. PDF is very similar to PostScript (PS), in that both (if I am not mistaken) were created as an open standard by Adobe. You are mostly right, at this point you are pretty much limited to Adobe products to handle PDF files. > HTML at least has the virtue of having multiple vendors supporting both > the generation and rendering of it. (It has numerous flaws, but I don't > know that they are relevant to this entire thread.) I guess that HTML is easier to produce than PDF, but it need not be in a format that breaks other tools. You can use the tags where they are necisary, without garbling the entire message with tags that are not of any benifit to the document. Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 Florence Flask was ... dressing for the opera when she turned to her husband and screamed, "Erlenmeyer! My joules! Someone has stolen my joules!" "Now, now, my dear," replied her husband, "keep your balance and reflux a moment. Perhaps they're mislead." "No, I know they're stolen," cried Florence. "I remember putting them in my burette ... We must call a copper." Erlenmeyer did so, and the flatfoot who turned up, one Sherlock Ohms, said the outrage looked like the work of an arch-criminal by the name of Lawrence Ium. "We must be careful -- he's a free radical, ultraviolet, and dangerous. His girlfriend is a chlorine at the Palladium. Maybe I can catch him there." With that, he jumped on his carbon cycle in an activated state and sped off along the reaction pathway ... -- Daniel B. Murphy, "Precipitations" From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 14:52:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA18552; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA18545 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com ([134.173.9.242]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01824; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980415141431.00a1d550@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:14:31 -0700 To: "Woodrick, Ed" From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: list-managers In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:57 p.m. 04/14/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >And there are probably still people who have terminals that don't use lower >case. SHOULD WE KEEP TYPING IN UPPERCASE TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO READ? What a silly person you are. Most terminals that don't have lowercase will display lowercase letters as uppercase, thus making the email readable. (BTW, don't the standards for email suggest that lowercase letters should be supported?) Your point fails to be made, and silly analogies like the one above are just...silly. Sorry. -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 15:07:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA27178; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA21150 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 17:27:10 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9804151727.aa00537@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick: >And there are probably still people who have terminals that don't use lower >case. SHOULD WE KEEP TYPING IN UPPERCASE TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO READ? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 15 15:42:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28319; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onramp.armchair.mb.ca (onramp.armchair.mb.ca [198.163.115.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA28011 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31588 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0000 Received: from bippo.armchair.mb.ca (HELO bippo) (198.163.115.60) by onramp.armchair.mb.ca with SMTP; 15 Apr 1998 21:02:08 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980415165740.010543b0@armchair.mb.ca> X-Sender: dave@armchair.mb.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:57:40 -0500 To: "Woodrick, Ed" , list-managers From: Dave Voorhis Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:57 PM 4/14/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: >And there are probably still people who have terminals that don't use lower >case. SHOULD WE KEEP TYPING IN UPPERCASE TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO READ? Now you're just being silly. Either you know why you're being silly and you're just baiting us, or you really don't get it. In either case, there's no point in debating with you. Nice to see you finally figured out how to disable HTML in your messages, though. My eyeballs thank you. Dave Voorhis mailto:dave@armchair.mb.ca http://www.armchair.mb.ca/~dave From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 16 08:11:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA24638; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA19010 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:13:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08935 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA24867 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA12018 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:26:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:26:36 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: list-managers Subject: RE: HTML-enabled mailing lists In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980415165740.010543b0@armchair.mb.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This topic has been bashed and rehashed for two weeks. IMHO, we have now reached the point of beating the greasy spot where a dead horse once was. Can we please give this thread a rest? - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 16 09:27:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA07209; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA06067 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk ([128.98.1.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA23192 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 00:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5373 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1998 07:54:51 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2) by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 16 Apr 1998 07:54:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 4456 invoked by alias); 16 Apr 1998 07:54:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 9030 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1998 07:54:51 -0000 Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7) by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 16 Apr 1998 07:54:51 -0000 To: list-managers Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Organization: CIS3 System and Networks Operations Group, DERA Malvern, UK References: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com> In-reply-to: <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:54:51 +0100 Message-ID: <17321.892713291@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <116338B0A28AD1118E6400AA005B102B108636@pumba.ed-com.com>, "Woodrick, Ed" writes: > And there are probably still people who have terminals that don't > use lower case. SHOULD WE KEEP TYPING IN UPPERCASE TO MAKE IT EASIER > FOR THEM TO READ? You've obviously never used one, your assertion is false. As most people seem to agree HTML in mail messages adds no content at the expense of extra cruft in the message. FWIW my mailer can handle text/html MIME, but I choose not to as I've tried reading some and they're far less legible than the straight ASCII. -- Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 19 15:55:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA19543; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sanson.dit.upm.es (sanson.dit.upm.es [138.4.2.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA19526 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from selva.dit.upm.es (selva-gw.dit.upm.es [138.4.2.7]) by sanson.dit.upm.es (8.8.4/3.14) with SMTP id AAA10061 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:50:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cirilo (carlos@toro-5.dit.upm.es [138.4.21.5]) by selva.dit.upm.es (8.6.10/3.14) with SMTP id AAA06854 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:50:15 +0200 Message-ID: <353A7FA0.3999314B@dit.upm.es> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:50:08 +0200 From: Carlos Garcia X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.0 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: web pages technical/"philosophical" aspects of mailing lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm looking for as many as possible good pages on administering mailing lists. 'philosophicals' as well as technical aspects. You know, it's hard to find what you what in usual searching engines when your keywords are "mailing list" and "administering". Thanks in advance. Salud, Carlos From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 19 17:10:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA22781; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA22772 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt9-27.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.186]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20691 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:57:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353A8F59.F09B4E2F@rapidnet.com> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:57:13 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Ad Swap Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My email list currently numbers over 7,500 and should be reaching near 10,000 in time for the next issue May 1 (note signature line for info.) Anyone with fairly substantial base of subscribers interested in doing an ad swap, please contact me and tell me about your list, number of subscribers, issue frequency, and desired ad copy of 6 or 7 lines. - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NEAT NET TRICKS -- A free twice-monthly email collection of useful computer and internet tips. Light-hearted and not-too-tekkie. Subscribe by Email to majordomo@majordomo.net with 'subscribe neatnettricks '. Need more info? Go to http://bounce.to/jteems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 19 17:15:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA22967; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwc.net (NWC.Net [204.140.231.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA22951 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from globaltrade (PPP42M.NWC.Net [207.151.14.165]) by nwc.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16213 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:03:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980419170248.006a06f0@flyingmail.com> X-Sender: mailfly@flyingmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:02:48 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "corponline.net" Subject: Search Engine for lists - List Promotion Opportunity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List Managers If you manage any kind of list or ezine or any other kind of circulated publication you may submit your entry to SEARCHLIST a new search engine, which promises to be very user friendly and will give full exposure to your project. You may submit details of your lists in this recently launched. search engine having very easy to use, user friendly interface. Search queries are based on keyword/s, and any keyword related to your list will make it appear in the search results. Search results are presented in very efficient style and potential subscriber will be able to subscribe right from the result page. You may submit your lists as soon as you may go to your web browser http://www.biodata.net/searchlist/submit.htm or just go to http://biodata.net Wish you the best! Regards Phil Clearwater From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 20 11:44:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA23114; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA23107 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt6-37.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.52]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16983 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:38:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353B9604.2A9C7FFF@rapidnet.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:37:56 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Off topic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Excuse the off topic, but can someone provide the correct address to retrieve the intro letter from this list? From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 20 14:10:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA27878; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA27868 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:59:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from volitans.MorningStar.Com (volitans.MorningStar.Com [137.175.2.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA02541 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from harlequin.morningstar.com (harlequin.MorningStar.Com [137.175.80.154]) by volitans.MorningStar.Com (8.8.7/) with SMTP id KAA10021 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:16:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Aydin Edguer Message-Id: <199804171416.KAA10021@volitans.MorningStar.Com> Subject: PDF (was Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:15:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I feel this discussion is moving off the topic of the mailing list. But... > As far as I know, PDF is a proprietary format and requires proprietary > software, unless you have the Adobe engine you cannot create a PDF file. PDF was created by a commercial firm (Adobe), rather than through a standards body (such as the ITU or ITF), but the "format" or language specifications have been published, so I am not sure that "proprietary" is the proper term to use. Adobe Acrobat Reader 3.0 is available for a range of platforms, including Linux. It is not universally available (example: it is not available for Solaris x86). If your operating system is not one of the platforms, then you might consider picking up a copy of "xpdf", which is a free X Window System based PDF viewer (there is also an Amiga port of xpdf). http://www.aimnet.com/~derekn/xpdf/ You might also consider picking up a recent version of Ghostscript, a free PostScript viewer that is now also able to generate and display PDF files. Version 5.0 and later of Ghostscript includes support for PDF 1.2, which is the PDF version used by Acrobat 3.0. In combination with Ghostview, this produces a very nice PDF viewer http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/ Ghostscript 5.0 and later are also able to take a PostScript file and generate a PDF file. This means that there are non-Adobe engines which can do the work. From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 21 04:25:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA05247; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp (yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp [202.227.9.98]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA05240 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mebizou (dhcp20.digital-magic.co.jp [203.181.89.60]) by yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp (8.8.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA22601 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:26:13 +0900 Message-Id: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> X-Sender: taka-tok@rs.digital-magic.co.jp X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3-Jr2 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:22:57 +0900 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Takashi Tokunaga Subject: Bounce Handler In-Reply-To: <199804171416.KAA10021@volitans.MorningStar.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all list managers, I'd like to ask for help handling bounced mails with various MTA. I'm maintain mail server (Qmail 1.01 + FreeBSD 2.2.5) which sends about 10,000 mail messages per day upon request. (Not spam, only by request : ) Of 10,000 messages sent, I usually get 2-3% of error mails due to various reasons. ie. host down, user no longer exist, wrong email addresses.... The problem I'm having now is how to handle those bounced mails. As for qmail, it returns error mails to the sender's Mailbox with messages like: "This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. blah blah " So I've created the simple perl script to extract error email addresses and automatically remove the error addresses from the sender list. Problem I'm having now is since different MTA returns different error messages, I can't do the same for outside errors. (ie, user's mail address has changed... mailbox is full....). Are there any tools/ways to handle bounced mails less painlessly? Any pointer/suggestion is very much welcomed. Thanx in advance, From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 21 09:25:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA11882; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA11874 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earthlink.net (pool004-max10.ds9-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.6.54]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27012; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353CC8C4.353149BE@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:26:44 -0700 From: Douglas Fajardo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Voorhis CC: "Woodrick, Ed" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists References: <3.0.5.32.19980414141031.00ebe170@armchair.mb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk GENTLEMEN! I Know I am not a regular contributor, but since no one else has said it... I will: While the language being used is quite controlled and proper (so Far! :), I feel obliged to point out that this is no longer a civil discussion, but is (IMHO) on the verge of becoming a "holy war" or even degenerating into a simple Feud. Could we all back off, please, and take a deep breath? Thanks! Now let me offer my own opinion, which is offered in the spirit of moving things forward: Dave Voorhis made the comment below "...Whether it should or should not be continued is something for the list moderator to determine." There is a core of truth here which, IMHO, answers the issue between Dave and Ed: HTML will happen - some places. *Should* it happen in a particular place (i.e.: on a specific mailing list) is up to the list administrator, probably working in conjunction with the members of that list. Now, having said that - the next question (IMHO) is HOW should html, attachments, etc. be handled in lists? What options for restrictions should an administrator have i.e.: only allow (or disallow?) specified mime types? Size limits on attachments? Filter based on HTML content to block JAVA, TCL or other programing language content? At this point the mechanics of *how* to do it are less important than *what* we need (or want) to do. (or to quote from Weird Science... " I know all about reality... don't !$#%$ with the fantasy" :). Douglas Fajardo dfajardo@earthlink.net Dave Voorhis wrote: > > At 09:40 AM 4/7/98 -0400, Woodrick, Ed wrote: > > >And for those of you who are so worried about bandwidth, why did you > >include me on the recipients list? [...] > >And sure, I know that replying to the list and the > >sender is considered proper etiquette on some lists, but just because it > >is considered proper, doesn't mean that it should be continued. > > Perhaps, but it IS considered proper etiquette on this list. Whether it > should or should not be continued is something for the list moderator to > determine. > <<<>> From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 21 10:27:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA14196; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA14187 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com ([134.173.9.242]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02876; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980421102402.00a502e0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:24:02 -0700 To: Douglas Fajardo From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: HTML-enabled mailing lists Cc: Dave Voorhis , "Woodrick, Ed" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <353CC8C4.353149BE@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19980414141031.00ebe170@armchair.mb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:26 a.m. 04/21/98 -0700, Douglas Fajardo wrote: > While the language being used is quite controlled and proper (so >Far! :), >I feel obliged to point out that this is no longer a civil discussion, >but is (IMHO) >on the verge of becoming a "holy war" or even degenerating into a simple >Feud. Actually, it was pretty much over, done, dead, finished -- until you popped up and let the same thing rear its ugly head again. -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 21 10:36:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA14472; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA14460 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (pdx66-i48-24.teleport.com [204.202.171.230]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA10319; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19691231160000.009ecbd0@mail.teleport.com> X-Sender: rfrench@mail.teleport.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:18:50 -0700 To: Carlos Garcia From: Rae French Subject: Re: web pages technical/"philosophical" aspects of mailing lists Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:50:08 +0200, Carlos Garcia wrote: > I'm looking for as many as possible good pages on > administering mailing lists. 'philosophicals' as well > as technical aspects. You know, it's hard to find > what you what in usual searching engines when your > keywords are "mailing list" and "administering". Try these to start... The List of Lists http://www.liszt.com/ Email Mailing List ListServer Lists http://www.cuenet.com/ml.html Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists http://www.NeoSoft.com:80/internet/paml/index.html Search The List of Lists http://catalog.com/vivian/interest-group-search.html And last, but not least, our own List-Managers Mailing List http://www.greatcircle.com/lists/list-managers/ You may find some good info and FAQs available through this route. Rae French BizFocus Internet Business Center Webmaster http://www.bizfocus.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 21 23:10:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA14324; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA14317 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.254.96.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.254.96.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.6/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA24706; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:10:49 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> References: <199804171416.KAA10021@volitans.MorningStar.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:12:23 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Bounce Handler Cc: Takashi Tokunaga Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 7:22 -0400 4/21/98, Takashi Tokunaga said: >I'd like to ask for help handling bounced mails with various MTA. [...] >Are there any tools/ways to handle bounced mails less painlessly? Freeware version and a payware version; depends on which features you need. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Ted Kaczinsky meant well -- he just needed a better target list. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 22 03:55:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA22671; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk (ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk [128.98.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA22664 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8738 invoked from network); 22 Apr 1998 10:44:20 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2) by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 22 Apr 1998 10:44:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 9547 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1998 10:44:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 10145 invoked from network); 22 Apr 1998 10:44:19 -0000 Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7) by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 22 Apr 1998 10:44:19 -0000 To: Takashi Tokunaga cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bounce Handler Organization: CIS3 System and Networks Operations Group, DERA Malvern, UK References: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> In-reply-to: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:44:18 +0100 Message-ID: <15257.893241858@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp>, Takashi Tokunaga writes: > I'd like to ask for help handling bounced mails with various MTA. > > I'm maintain mail server (Qmail 1.01 + FreeBSD 2.2.5) which sends about > 10,000 mail messages per day upon request. (Not spam, only by request : ) [...] > Problem I'm having now is since different MTA returns different error > messages, I can't do the same for outside errors. (ie, user's mail > address has changed... mailbox is full....). Sounds like something that Qmail's VERP's (Variable Envelope Return Paths) could help with, have a read of: ftp://koobera.math.uic.edu/www/proto/verp.txt and read your qmail docs about how to implement them. At least this way you'd know exactly what subscriber had done something to trigger the bounce message in question.. ;-) cheers! Chris -- Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:22:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA27755; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:15:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA27743 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.simutronics.com (gateway.simutronics.com [198.83.204.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA12284 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from andyf@localhost) by gateway.simutronics.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id LAA04216 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:30:52 -0500 From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199804211630.LAA04216@gateway.simutronics.com> Subject: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:30:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! A disgruntled customer of ours has subscribed two addresses of people here at Simutronics to what seems like every known mailing list in the world. The two addresses in question are "drappeals@simutronics.com" and "access@simutronics.com". Is there any practical way of preventing this in the future? Best regards, Andy From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:28:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA27909; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA27899 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f128.hotmail.com [207.82.251.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id OAA11622 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10521 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1998 21:28:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19980422212847.10520.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.184.204.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:28:47 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.184.204.5] From: "Roland Ronald" To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: free mailing list hosting (was: Looking for host) Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:28:47 PDT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Check out FindMail's MakeList service at http://www.MakeList.com/. They offer free mailing list hosting. MakeList has a Web-based interface but you can also manage your list through e-mail much like majordomo. - M Benji Spencer writes: > > I'm trying to set up a couple of majordomo mailing lists, > and I'm missing one important thing: a host. I've looked > at the FAQ, and searched the archives, and done lots of > web searches, and so far I haven't turned up any free > servers (except one in Europe). I found mystery.com that > will set up small lists for $10/month each, and a few > others more expensive than that. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:36:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA27786; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA27778 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from keep.itis.com (itis.com [209.83.0.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA11774 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skuld (a13-25.itis.com [209.83.14.25]) by keep.itis.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04748 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:33:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804220333.WAA04748@keep.itis.com> Reply-To: From: "Katim S. Touray" To: Subject: Help host a mailing list Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:33:16 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, I'm writing to find a server to host an Africa-oriented mailing list. I would like to run the mailing list from a server that preferably has either Listserv, or List-Proc. This is because I would like postings to be archived, and Listserv I know at least can have an HTML-based archives. I am not really considering the free mailing list hosting services out there simply because I would not want any ads tacked on postings sent out. I just don't want the mailing list I am planning to carry ads. Also, I am hoping to be able to set up my own server in the next 6 months or so, and should by then be able to migrate the list to my server. In short, I expect that whoever is willing to offer me space to host the mailing list can expect that I should be able to, and will, take it off their server when I get my own. Please let me know if you need more information from me to be able to decide whether you can help me or not. Thanks a lot for your consideration, and I look forward to hearing from you. Sincrely, Katim S. Touray dekat@itis.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:38:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA27734; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA27717 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NrgUp.Com (garbo.nrgup.com [208.150.70.114]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA09156 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5668 invoked by uid 501); 21 Apr 1998 14:41:09 -0000 Message-ID: <19980421094108.47375@NrgUp.Com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:41:08 -0500 From: Jonathan Bradshaw To: Takashi Tokunaga , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bounce Handler References: <199804171416.KAA10021@volitans.MorningStar.Com> <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp>; from Takashi Tokunaga on Tue, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:22:57PM +0900 X-Mailer-Info: http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/ X-Operating-System: Linux Garbo 2.0.33 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If you are using qmail, why are you not using ezmlm+idx which will handle all the bounces for you? I switched from SmartList to Qmail+Ezmlm/IDX and was able to forget for the 1200+ mailing list recipients that bounces even happen! Even if you don't use Ezmlm, the www.qmail.org site has a tool for using VERP with other list management packages. Jonathan On Tue, Apr 21, 1998 at 08:22:57PM +0900, Takashi Tokunaga wrote: > Hello all list managers, > > I'd like to ask for help handling bounced mails with various MTA. > > I'm maintain mail server (Qmail 1.01 + FreeBSD 2.2.5) which sends about > 10,000 mail messages per day upon request. (Not spam, only by request : ) > > Of 10,000 messages sent, I usually get 2-3% of error mails due to various > reasons. ie. host down, user no longer exist, wrong email addresses.... > > The problem I'm having now is how to handle those bounced mails. > > As for qmail, it returns error mails to the sender's Mailbox with messages > like: > > "This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. blah > blah " > > So I've created the simple perl script to extract error email addresses and > automatically remove the error addresses from the sender list. > > Problem I'm having now is since different MTA returns different error > messages, I can't do the same for outside errors. (ie, user's mail address > has changed... mailbox is full....). > > Are there any tools/ways to handle bounced mails less painlessly? > > Any pointer/suggestion is very much welcomed. > > Thanx in advance, -- Jonathan Bradshaw (Jonathan@NrgUp.Com) | Novell 4.x CNE | Ham Call N9OXE > Filter everyone... trust no one < "When people understand what Microsoft is up to, they're outraged." -- TIM O'REILLY, President, O'Reilly & Associates From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:40:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA27668; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id WAA27658 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA24205 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id LAA12009; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <353B9B0F.DA443F68@postmodern.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:01:31 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Teems CC: list-managers Subject: Re: Off topic References: <353B9604.2A9C7FFF@rapidnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Excuse the off topic, but can someone provide the correct address to > retrieve the intro letter from this list? The best way is to send the message info list-managers in the body (not subject) of a message to majordomo@greatcircle.com. However, since it hasn't been reposted in a while, and really should be, now and then, here it is. -- Michael C. Berch List-Managers list manager mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com Description =========== This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms, techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package). Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the documentation that came with the package to find out where the support list for that package is hosted. This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992. This is the undigestified version of the list. All messages sent to this list are immediately forwarded to members of the list. The digestified version of the list is List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM. Policies ======== You can subscribe a local redistribution list or a gateway to a local newsgroup, as long as whatever you do is local to your site. This restriction makes it much easier for me to track down mailer problems. I'm very aggressive when it comes to bounced email. If email to you starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from the list fairly quickly; you'll have to resubscribe when you get the problem fixed, and retrieve the archives to find out what you missed. Archives ======== All messages to the list are archived. The archives are available via the web, via anonymous FTP, or via Majordomo: Via the web: Visit Via anonymous FTP: host FTP.GreatCircle.COM, directory "pub/list-managers/archive", or via Via Majordomo: via the "index list-managers" and "get list-managers list-managers.YYMM" commands (send "help" in the body of a message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM" for more info) The archives are broken down by year and month, and are stored in files named "list-managers.YYMM" or compressed files named "list-managers.YYMM.Z", where "YY" is the year and "MM" is the month. The copies of the archive available via the web and anonymous FTP is updated every night at 2am local time (0900 GMT in the summer, 1000 GMT in the winter). For further information, contact: Michael C. Berch Postmaster and list manager, Great Circle Associates mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 22:52:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA00363; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatem02.netusa1.net (gatem02.netusa1.net [205.139.170.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA00285; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netusa1.net (indyA16.netusa1.net [206.30.241.16]) by gatem02.netusa1.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA18699; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35456C17.28B27171@netusa1.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:41:44 -0500 From: "Best of: Humor" Organization: Best of: Humor/ http://www.esosoft.com/bestofhumor/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mailing list hosting References: <19980422212847.10520.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I can point to a great place for a mailing list if it is small I believe esosoft can compete with what your looking for I know that it is not free but it is fairly cheap and they also have a great support staff and a special list for list owners that can help with problems! http://www.esosoft.com/ $5/ month for up to 2500 subscribers If you do join esosoft let them know that Shawn Thayer from the humor list sent you! Roland Ronald wrote: > Check out FindMail's MakeList service at http://www.MakeList.com/. They > offer free mailing list hosting. > > MakeList has a Web-based interface but you can also manage your list > through e-mail much like majordomo. > > - M > > Benji Spencer writes: > > > > I'm trying to set up a couple of majordomo mailing lists, > > and I'm missing one important thing: a host. I've looked > > at the FAQ, and searched the archives, and done lots of > > web searches, and so far I haven't turned up any free > > servers (except one in Europe). I found mystery.com that > > will set up small lists for $10/month each, and a few > > others more expensive than that. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- -------------------------------- You like to Laugh? Join Best of: Humor http://www.esosoft.com/bestofhumor/bohlist.html To Join: Majordomo@esosoft.com BODY: Subscribe Humor --------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 27 23:52:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA09897; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA09841 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19564 ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:52:31 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804211630.LAA04216@gateway.simutronics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:50:18 -0700 To: Andy Finkenstadt , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:30 AM -0700 4/21/98, Andy Finkenstadt wrote: > Is there any practical way of preventing this in the future? Yes. turn on mailback verification on all lists, so addresses can't be subscribed without confirmation from that address. Or as I said to one list owner when he said he wouldn't do that because the spam on the list wasn't bad yet, that attitude is like coming home, smelling gas, and deciding to wait on calling the repairman bcause the house hasn't blown up yet. If you don't do mailback verification, unless you're really small and really well hidden, the spam idiots WILL find you, and will start force-subscribing people onto your lists. and you get to clean up the damage, not the spammers. but hey, the house hasn't blown up yet. Maybe it won't.... (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 01:22:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA14131; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA14114 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA00626 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA11038 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:14:08 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:50:18 -0700. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: <11036.893751247@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >At 9:30 AM -0700 4/21/98, Andy Finkenstadt wrote: > >> Is there any practical way of preventing this in the future? > >Yes. turn on mailback verification on all lists, so addresses can't be >subscribed without confirmation from that address. > >Or as I said to one list owner when he said he wouldn't do that because >the spam on the list wasn't bad yet, that attitude is like coming home, >smelling gas, and deciding to wait on calling the repairman bcause the >house hasn't blown up yet. Well said. >If you don't do mailback verification, unless you're really small and >really well hidden, the spam idiots WILL find you, and will start >force-subscribing people onto your lists. and you get to clean up the >damage, not the spammers. Having been mass forge-subscribed onto a bunch of non-corfirming mailing lists myself three times now, I have decided that yes, this really is getting old. So I've pretty well decided from now on _not_ to just let it lie with a sternly worded personal warning to the (ir)responsible list admin. Nope. That's just too easy. >From now on, whenever I get forged subscribed onto a non-confirming list, I've decided to use the opportunity (since I'm already subscribed) to make a VERY blunt posting to this list in question, using as many four letter words as I can possibly fit into a few paragraphs, and making the point (repeatedly) that the reason the list subscribers have found themselves being subjected to _my_ explitives is because they have a moron managing their list. I've tried this once already and believe me when I say that if the goal is to get yourself unsubscribed in a hurry, this really does the trick. (Well, anyway it worked like a charm when I did it on one ``History of Religion'' list I had been forged subscribed too.) Whether or not it makes any lasting impression on the incompetent list admin is still an open question as far as I'm concerned. But even if it doesn't, I at least have the satisfaction of knowing that I have throughly embarrased him/her by pointing out what an utter and complete ass he/she is to a group of people that he/she may actually care about and/or may be stuck interacting with into the indefinite future. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 06:22:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA22685; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA22678 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21567 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA14212 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:16 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA03429 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199804281320.IAA03429@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >From now on, whenever I get forged subscribed onto a non-confirming list, > I've decided to use the opportunity (since I'm already subscribed) to make > a VERY blunt posting to this list in question, using as many four letter > words as I can possibly fit into a few paragraphs, and making the point > (repeatedly) that the reason the list subscribers have found themselves > being subjected to _my_ explitives is because they have a moron managing > their list. > > I've tried this once already and believe me when I say that if the goal > is to get yourself unsubscribed in a hurry, this really does the trick. > (Well, anyway it worked like a charm when I did it on one ``History of > Religion'' list I had been forged subscribed too.) Ron, I'm sure that's very efficient, and I hope you take similar steps to deal with undesirable behavior in the rest of your life, like using a squirt gun on smokers, taking candy out of the hands of babies, calling the store manager if someone is in the express lane at the supermarket with more than 12 items, etc. What is it about the online community that causes people who are presumably intelligent and at least somewhat civilized to behave like total louts, just because they've been inconvenienced by some other puerile jerk? If that post didn't convince the list subscribers that a moron was running the list, it may well have convinced them that a moron had gotten subscribed to it. I think we should all do Ron a favor and put his address on the reject list for our lists, just so he isn't inconvenienced further. I assure you it is going on mine. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 06:37:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA22782; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pine.liii.com (pine.liii.com [198.207.193.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA22774; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rowan.liii.com (denic@rowan.liii.com [198.207.193.5]) by pine.liii.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06337; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:23:48 GMT Received: from localhost (denic@localhost) by rowan.liii.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA16244; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:23:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: rowan.liii.com: denic owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dennis N. Aruta" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Domain Name Administrator, What protection if any? In-Reply-To: <199804280800.BAA14034@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since 1994 I have operated and owned mailing-lists. Changing providers is very troublesome, and I am now using my 3rd provider. My previous provider suggested I get a domain name, via internic, with set-up and annual fees, I did. Denar.com was created. My mailing list provider took the fees, then gave 30 days notice that his mailing-list provider is ceasing operation after about one year of operating. Any message now sent to denar@denar.com, and all the established addresses @denar.com are fatal errored, with no responsibility taken from the dumpee! At least shouldn't arrangements have been made to forward denar.com e-mail?? What does a list owner do in this situation? Dennis Aruta, Owner ShipFix (c) 1997 & International Commerce List IC-L (c) 1994, http://members.aol.com./denicny/trade.html Mailing address: Denar Chartering Inc.(since 1971) Phone: 516-326-2300 P.O. Box 1147, Denar House Fax: call New Hyde Park N.Y. 11040 Tlx: 4971419 U.S.A. email: Denic@liii.com DenicNY@aol.com From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 07:07:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA24738; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA24722 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23668 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:06:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (carrot.tssi.com) by carrot.tssi.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA14573 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:06:04 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA04064 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:06:01 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199804281406.JAA04064@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Bounce Handler (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:06:01 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If you are using qmail, why are you not using ezmlm+idx which will handle all > the bounces for you? Maybe there are other features of the current list management package that are more attractive, or the time and effort necessary to convert from one list package to another is excessive. > I switched from SmartList to Qmail+Ezmlm/IDX and was able to forget for the > 1200+ mailing list recipients that bounces even happen! I hope for the sake of your 1200+ subscribers that the bounces are all for the right reasons, then. IMHO there are 'good' bounces, and 'bad' bounces, and some intelligence or thought as to what to do with them is A Good Thing, and if this takes some list manager time periodically, it's still just one item on the list of things that list managers do behind the scenes. I'm looking to switch all of my lists over to a new environment later this year, new hardware, a better net connection, more features, etc. Despite the 'holier than thou' attitude of too many qmail disciples, I'm still considering it as one component to the overall package I want to create. And I thoroughly expect to spend nearly a month making the change between setting up and testing the new site and the actual conversion. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 09:37:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA01855; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA01813 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yUDDn-0004Hd-00; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:27:07 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980428172604.008d0100@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:26:04 +0100 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Domain Name Administrator, What protection if any? In-Reply-To: References: <199804280800.BAA14034@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >My previous provider suggested I get a domain name, via internic, >with set-up and annual fees, I did. Denar.com was created. > >My mailing list provider took the fees, then gave 30 days notice >that his mailing-list provider is ceasing operation after about >one year of operating. Any message now sent to denar@denar.com, >and all the established addresses @denar.com are fatal errored, >with no responsibility taken from the dumpee! At least shouldn't >arrangements have been made to forward denar.com e-mail?? > >What does a list owner do in this situation? The advice on getting your own domain was sound - the reasons why that is the case were clearly not made clear. The domain is your and thus you can have it hosted where you choose. The main value is thus that none of your list *addresses* need change when you move ISP. It doesn't mean that you will never have to move ISP, that remains the same as before - if you decide you would prefer the service elsewhere then move. What you probably do is find someone you like who can give you the desired service (host your domain and handle mailing lists in it), have the domain moved to them (you should not be charged for this) and the lists set up asap. BTW - on the information above, it does seem that you have been treated very poorly. Most people cancelling services will give people time to find an alternative supplier. Manar From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 11:07:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA04205; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA04198 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA23750 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26194 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:02:59 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0500. <199804281320.IAA03429@celery.tssi.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:02:59 -0700 Message-ID: <26192.893786579@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804281320.IAA03429@celery.tssi.com>, nolan@tssi.com wrote: >Ron, I'm sure that's very efficient, and I hope you take similar steps >to deal with undesirable behavior in the rest of your life, like using >a squirt gun on smokers, taking candy out of the hands of babies, calling >the store manager if someone is in the express lane at the supermarket with >more than 12 items, etc. What's wrong with babies having candy?? (Regarding express checkout lines, I was standing in one recently and two women behind me were discussing some incident which, apparently, had been in the newspapers recently, in which someone actually _shot_ someone who was ahead of them in one of these express checkout lines and who had too many items. No... it wasn't me. :-) >What is it about the online community that causes people who are presumably >intelligent and at least somewhat civilized to behave like total louts, I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be forge-subscribed to a non- confirming mailing list he/she is running. >just because they've been inconvenienced by some other puerile jerk? Actually, it takes the cooperation of at least _two_ puerile jerks to get one's self forge-subscribed onto a non-confirming mailing list... the net- hooligan who does the subscription forging, _and_ also at least one bone- headed list admin who sets up a mailing list without the foggiest idea of how to actually run one properly. >I think we should all do Ron a favor and put his address on the reject list >for our lists, just so he isn't inconvenienced further. I assure you it >is going on mine. If you are one of the innumerable boneheads who is running a mailing list whose subscription protocol fails to include an requirement for affirmative reply/confirmation on (alleged) new subscription requests, then by all means, please *DO* put me on your reject list. I would appreciate it greatly. In fact please put all of the monkeys.com and e-scrub.com domains on your reject lists. I and my domains get enough spam as it is. Thanks. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 15:27:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA14173; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14161 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.104.58.217] (stk-pw217.gotnet.net [207.104.58.217]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15536 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:21:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199804282221.SAA15536@iwebb.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing (The Saga Continues!) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 15:23:09 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: "List Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You guys crack me up! I have been on this list for awhile, mostly DELETING, but sometimes reading, and I can't help but chuckle every time I decide to read one! I picture grown men (sometimes women) using there years of education (possibly College Degrees) and even more years of experience to meticulously word their "playground squabbles". You have to look at it from my point of view, I am a 23 y.o. mother of 3, trying to learn something from you educated, more experienced "List Masters" because having 3 children ages 4 and under does not allow me a lot of time to go to college, etc. And I feel like I've walked into the middle of a "Well Educated" Soap Opera. Who needs Daytime TV, just join a listserv! I am basically a self taught Web Designer, who is trying to further my education, but if I want to interject I have to be very careful with my wording in fear of getting flamed. And have to sift through the bickering to try to weed out the good and helpful information. There are mature and friendly ways to speak to people. In order to be spoken to with respect, you have to speak with respect to whomever you're speaking to. We are all adults here, I'm sure if we were all sitting around a conference table exchanging experiences and ideas, you would all be a little more civil to one another, wouldn't you?? Maybe, I'm wrong, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as everyone agreeing, or everyone having the same ideas and opinions. At some point you have to realize that it's OK for others to have different opinions. I have to deal with my 4 1/2 and 2 1/2 y.o. boys bickering all day. When I get online I don't want to have to read it from grown men. If you feel overwhelmed with the desire to flame someone, E-MAIL THEM DIRECTLY. It has nothing to do with the rest of us and it certainly isn't helping the rest of us who need help and are deleting possibly good information because we're tired of the childish bickering. I suppose I'll get flamed for this, but at least I finally said what was on my mind! Jenifer From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 19:07:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA19766; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (www.cybercorp.net [207.112.30.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA19759 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA01366 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:59:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:59:48 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: List Managers Subject: playground squabbles In-Reply-To: <199804282221.SAA15536@iwebb.com> Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com wrote: > You guys crack me up! > meticulously word their "playground squabbles". > I am basically a self taught Web Designer, who is trying to further my > education, but if I want to interject I have to be very careful with my Jenifer, You may be interested in webmaster-l ... we NEVER bicker :) ? ? subscribe via: majordomo@cybercorp.net ---rob--- %% soho-can & webmaster-l list facilitator %% Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D. | ~ ~ ~ GYMNASIA VIRTUALES ~ ~ ~ CyberCorp Inc. | GymVCOW - http://www.cybercorp.net/COW rhiggins@cybercorp.net | GymVMOO - http://www.cybercorp.net/GymVMOO http://www.cybercorp.net | GymVCourses - http://www.cybercorp.net/gymv From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 19:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA20765; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA20758 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id WAA22565; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:43:23 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from viking.cris.com (viking.concentric.net [206.173.119.81]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA24751; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:43:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Olusegun O. Ogidan" X-Sender: Valtd1@viking.cris.com To: Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing (The Saga Continues!) In-Reply-To: <199804282221.SAA15536@iwebb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Jenifer: No, you won't GET FLAMED by me. You have spoken well and I am in complete agreement with you. I am new to the list and I will just GET OFF if all that is done here is FLAMING people. Like you, I detest people who tend to OPPRESS others because they seem to know it all and are not willing to share their talents with others. I am a blind list owner. I am on this list because I want to learn better ways and means of managing lists. Teach me, but please, like Jenifer has said, DO NOT INSULT my intelligence or FLAME me because I happen to have asked a stupid question. Many thanks as I hope that both Jennifer and me made sense! Sincerely, Olusegun O. Ogidan On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com wrote: > You guys crack me up! > > I have been on this list for awhile, mostly DELETING, but sometimes > reading, and I can't help but chuckle every time I decide to read one! > > I picture grown men (sometimes women) using there years of education > (possibly College Degrees) and even more years of experience to > meticulously word their "playground squabbles". > > You have to look at it from my point of view, I am a 23 y.o. mother of 3, > trying to learn something from you educated, more experienced "List > Masters" because having 3 children ages 4 and under does not allow me a > lot of time to go to college, etc. And I feel like I've walked into the > middle of a "Well Educated" Soap Opera. Who needs Daytime TV, just join > a listserv! > > I am basically a self taught Web Designer, who is trying to further my > education, but if I want to interject I have to be very careful with my > wording in fear of getting flamed. And have to sift through the > bickering to try to weed out the good and helpful information. > > There are mature and friendly ways to speak to people. In order to be > spoken to with respect, you have to speak with respect to whomever you're > speaking to. We are all adults here, I'm sure if we were all sitting > around a conference table exchanging experiences and ideas, you would all > be a little more civil to one another, wouldn't you?? > > Maybe, I'm wrong, but in my opinion, there is no such thing as everyone > agreeing, or everyone having the same ideas and opinions. At some point > you have to realize that it's OK for others to have different opinions. > > I have to deal with my 4 1/2 and 2 1/2 y.o. boys bickering all day. When > I get online I don't want to have to read it from grown men. If you feel > overwhelmed with the desire to flame someone, E-MAIL THEM DIRECTLY. It > has nothing to do with the rest of us and it certainly isn't helping the > rest of us who need help and are deleting possibly good information > because we're tired of the childish bickering. > > I suppose I'll get flamed for this, but at least I finally said what was > on my mind! > > Jenifer > From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 20:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA22031; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA22023 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-17lssc (STL-17LSSC.ARMY.MIL [150.211.90.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA13123 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804270200.TAA13123@honor.greatcircle.com> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.new-list Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:27:30 EST Reply-To: pk From: pk Subject: NEW: List-digest - for list owners To: NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk LIST-Digest on majordomo@biodata.net FREE Essential for all list-owners, moderators, editors and managers List-digest is for discussion, disseminating information, exchanging ideas, experiences and list promotion strategies. Also discussed are themes like the proper use of lists, the purpose, the scope, the future and various other related technical and non-technical issues. TO SUBSCRIBE send E-mail to majordomo@biodata.net with the BODY containing the command subscribe list-digest or goto http://www.biodata.net/digest List-digest is hosted by biodata.net Biodata.net hosts the friendliest LIST-SEARCH engine called search-a-list. http://www.biodata.net Search-a-list - List search Engine You may submit details of your lists in this recently launched. search engine having very easy to use, user friendly interface. Search queries are based on keyword/s, and any keyword related to your list will make it appear in the search results. Search results are presented in very efficient style and potential subscriber will be able to subscribe right from the result page. You may submit your lists as soon as you may go to your web browser http://www.biodata.net/searchlist/submit.htm Owner: listsearch@biodata.net a project of center for global trade development Moderator: Phil Clearwater phil@biodata.net ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. URL: http://LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU/archives/new-list.html From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 22:52:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id WAA01423; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA01416 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00817; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA13384; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:58:22 -0700 To: pk cc: NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, phil@biodata.NET Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:27:30 -0500. <199804270200.TAA13123@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:58:22 -0700 Message-ID: <13382.893829502@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804270200.TAA13123@honor.greatcircle.com>, you wrote: >LIST-Digest on majordomo@biodata.net FREE > >Essential for all list-owners, moderators, editors and managers > >List-digest is for discussion, disseminating information, exchanging >ideas, experiences and list promotion strategies. Also discussed are >themes like the proper use of lists, the purpose, the scope, the future >and various other related technical and non-technical issues. > >TO SUBSCRIBE send E-mail to majordomo@biodata.net >with the BODY containing the command > > subscribe list-digest > >or goto http://www.biodata.net/digest > >List-digest is hosted by biodata.net >Biodata.net hosts the friendliest LIST-SEARCH engine >called search-a-list. http://www.biodata.net > >Search-a-list - List search Engine > >You may submit details of your lists in this recently launched. >search engine having very easy to use, user friendly interface. >Search queries are based on keyword/s, and any keyword >related to your list will make it appear in the search results. >Search results are presented in very efficient style and potential >subscriber will be able to subscribe right from the result page. > >You may submit your lists as soon as you may go to your web browser >http://www.biodata.net/searchlist/submit.htm > >Owner: listsearch@biodata.net > a project of center for global trade development > >Moderator: Phil Clearwater phil@biodata.net Regarding your search service... Have you taken adequate precautions to insure that it will not be strip- mined by spammers looking for new target E-mail addresses? Inquiring minds want to know. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 23:34:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA03230; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA03211 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA25079 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:38:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt9-04.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.163]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA03005; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:40:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35446E89.8DD3AE63@rapidnet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:39:53 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: AOL Problems Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send email from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the javascript in my site? -- - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NEAT NET TRICKS -- A free twice-monthly email collection of useful computer and internet tips. Light-hearted and not-too-tekkie. Subscribe by Email to majordomo@majordomo.net with 'subscribe neatnettricks '. Need more info? Go to http://bounce.to/jteems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 28 23:37:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA03243; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA03233 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA25200 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt9-04.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.163]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA03648; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:51:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35447150.1EAB6D2@rapidnet.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:51:44 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" , "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" Subject: Ooops Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lessons learned...never send a message before coffee: I said: I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send email from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the javascript in my site? But should have read "unable to send email from the link on my web page at http://bounce.to/jteems....." Guess that makes more sense. Sorry about that..... now in caffeine mode. -- - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NEAT NET TRICKS -- A free twice-monthly email collection of useful computer and internet tips. Light-hearted and not-too-tekkie. Subscribe by Email to majordomo@majordomo.net with 'subscribe neatnettricks '. Need more info? Go to http://bounce.to/jteems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 03:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA13261; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [209.64.54.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA13254 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.di.com(209.64.54.3) by bbfm.di.com for on Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:45:43 -0700 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:45:35 -0700 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Why people on the Internet typically have no manners Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:45:34 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A friend of the wise philosopher El Barto once stated - "The potential for mischief is inversely proportional to one's distance from the authority figure." After being on many lists and moderating a few for the past ten years, I've developed the following corollary - "The potential for being an asshole is inversely proportional to the likeliness of getting one's ass kicked." Let's see this principle in action... Ron writes - >From now on, whenever I get forged subscribed onto a non-confirming list, >I've decided to use the opportunity (since I'm already subscribed) to make >a VERY blunt posting to this list in question, using as many four letter >words as I can possibly fit into a few paragraphs, and making the point >(repeatedly) that the reason the list subscribers have found themselves >being subjected to _my_ explitives is because they have a moron managing >their list. Analysis: Ass-kicking potential low; asshole behavior high. Little does Ron know that I've secretly mailed in his home address on several "advertiser bingo cards" from biker magazines. Does Ron show up at the next Hell's Angels meeting, pushing over motorcycles and shouting that the magazine advertisers are complete morons because they did not first mail him asking for his permission to mail more things to him? Not likely. Analysis: Ass-kicking potential high; Ron quietly stews at home as he throws each piece of junk mail into the trash, vowing to one day make a version of e-scrub that works in the physical world. -todd- From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 04:22:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA13866; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA13859 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA29026; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA08203; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:20:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:20:47 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: pk , NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, phil@biodata.NET Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners In-Reply-To: <13382.893829502@monkeys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Regarding your search service... > > Have you taken adequate precautions to insure that it will not be strip- > mined by spammers looking for new target E-mail addresses? > > Inquiring minds want to know. As long as we are asking pertinent questions, what is the purpose of yet another list managers mailing list? I am subscribed to two general purpose listowners lists already and I know of several more. I even have a private version of my own, for list managers who use my listproc. Not breaking new ground here. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 04:37:22 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA14098; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA14091 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15304 invoked from network); 29 Apr 1998 11:32:50 -0000 Received: from bonkers.neosoft.com (HELO bonkers.taronga.com) (root@206.109.2.48) by mushi.colo.neosoft.com with SMTP; 29 Apr 1998 11:32:50 -0000 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id GAA18034 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:32:47 -0500 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199804291132.GAA18034@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing (The Saga Continues!) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:32:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com: > You have to look at it from my point of view, I am a 23 y.o. mother of 3, > trying to learn something from you educated, more experienced "List > Masters" because having 3 children ages 4 and under does not allow me a > lot of time to go to college, etc. And I feel like I've walked into the > middle of a "Well Educated" Soap Opera. Who needs Daytime TV, just join > a listserv! A bit of terminology: list-managers is a Mailing List, not a "listserv". The server list-manager runs on is majordomo, not LISTSERV. LISTSERV is a completely different list management package. But to address your message. Been there, done that. Seen posts like yours. Many times. I've been on the net a long time. Fourteen years, now. I'm familiar with many of the users on this list, some by reputation only. They disagree because they tend to be very opinionated, and are not afraid of expressing it (and this open forum allows them to). I find their arguments to be often entertaining, and usually informative. But one thing I do know - the people here are extremely knowledgable about mailing lists, which is why I've stayed s*bscr*bed to list-managers for the past 5 years or so. If you have a problem with the list, I think you should take it up with the list owner. It is not your prerogative to wag your finger at the participants here. I find such attempts to manipulate the conversation distasteful. However, there are several other mailing lists for the discussion of list management. If this one is too rough for you, I'm sure there are others more to your liking. You might try list-moms, I hear that one is more geared towards newbies. > I suppose I'll get flamed for this, but at least I finally said what was > on my mind! This is not a flame. Don't take it as such. From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 05:07:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id EAA14551; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA14544 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Path: siberia.demon.co.uk!claire Message-ID: <199804291237.claire.98047294@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:37:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk References: Your message of Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:20:13 -0500. <199804281320.IAA03429@celery.tssi.com> In-reply-to: <26192.893786579@monkeys.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 28 Apr 98 at 11:02, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >What is it about the online community that causes people who are presumably > >intelligent and at least somewhat civilized to behave like total louts, > > I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it > each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be > forge-subscribed to a non- confirming mailing list he/she is > running. Hmm. The problem with your strategy is that in response to an offence committed by some unknown miscreant, made possible by the carelessness/laziness/ignorance of a list admin, you swear at all the subscribers to that list. It's like bombing a town flat because a cop let a hoodlum escape and go to your place to rob you. It's targetting the wromg people, and ir doesn't help. If you want a target for your anger, and you can't find the culprit, go for the list admin. But leave off the other subscribers, who are innocent bystanders. Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 09:23:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA19385; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA19375 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.104.58.117] (stk-pw117.gotnet.net [207.104.58.117]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA31532 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:14:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199804291614.MAA31532@iwebb.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing (The Saga Continues!) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 09:16:35 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >A bit of terminology: > >list-managers is a Mailing List, not a "listserv". >The server list-manager runs on is majordomo, not LISTSERV. >LISTSERV is a completely different list management package. I thought about that after I wrote it, I was waiting for someone to call me on that! >They disagree because they tend to be very opinionated, and are >not afraid of expressing it (and this open forum allows them to) >It is not your prerogative to wag your finger >at the participants here. If this is an open forum, then I suppose I would be allowed to express my opinions as well. >If this one is too rough for you, Actually, yours is the first directed at me and I wouldn't call it "too rough". Most of them tend to be a little repetitive though, and have really no purpose. It just crowds my mailbox with pointless e-mails, like the "HTML Saga". None of that was directed at me either. It just got really old! And I may have deleted something that was worth while, by deleting everything with that subject line, but how many are you suppose to read before it's not worth it anymore? >You might try list-moms, I hear that one >is more geared towards newbies. I've never heard of that one, do you have the address? It sounds like it might be more helpful for my needs. I'm not ashamed of the fact that I'm trying to learn about being a List Manager. >This is not a flame. Don't take it as such. I new I wouldn't be completely off the hook. Only one so far though, I think I'm doing pretty good! Thanks again to everyone else that supported my opinion! I know you all didn't see how many I received because MOST of them we're sent PRIVATELY, to my personal address. I would like to applause Claire for offering her opinion in a mature, respectful manner! Claire's response to Ron's "Prevalence of mailing-list bombing"... >Hmm. The problem with your strategy is that in response to an >offense committed by some unknown miscreant, made possible by the >carelessness/laziness/ignorance of a list admin, you swear at all the >subscribers to that list. It's like bombing a town flat because a >cop let a hoodlum escape and go to your place to rob you. > >It's targetting the wromg people, and ir doesn't help. If you want a >target for your anger, and you can't find the culprit, go for the >list admin. But leave off the other subscribers, who are innocent >bystanders. > >Best wishes, >Claire Thanks for the feedback, Jenifer From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 09:37:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA19872; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pm02sm.pmm.mci.net (pm02sm.pmm.mci.net [208.159.126.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA19863 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chris (usr32-dialup18.mix1.Sacramento.mci.net) by PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET (PMDF V5.1-10 #27034) with ESMTP id <0ES60040QOSY00@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:36:39 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:33:16 -0700 From: Chris Newman Subject: MajorDomo Header/Footer insertion Web interface script. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We are in the process of installing MajorDomo and MajorCool. The only utility which seems to be missing is a script which creates a Web page GUI for the automatic insertion of headers and footers in outgoing messages. Can someone point us to such a script or do you have one which you would care to share? TIA Chris Newman From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 10:39:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA21609; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA21577 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26505 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32202 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:22 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing (The Saga Continues!) In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:32:46 -0500. <199804291132.GAA18034@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:21 -0700 Message-ID: <32200.893871861@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804291132.GAA18034@bonkers.taronga.com>, arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) wrote: >If you have a problem with the list, I think you should take it up >with the list owner. It is not your prerogative to wag your finger >at the participants here. I find such attempts to manipulate the >conversation distasteful. Oh goodie! A flamewar about flamewars! :-) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 11:04:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA22690; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA22665 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27316 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA32475 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:58:46 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:37:04 +0100. <199804291237.claire.98047294@siberia.demon.co.uk> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:58:46 -0700 Message-ID: <32473.893872726@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804291237.claire.98047294@siberia.demon.co.uk>, Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk wrote: >On 28 Apr 98 at 11:02, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> >What is it about the online community that causes people who are presumably >> >intelligent and at least somewhat civilized to behave like total louts, >> >> I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it >> each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be >> forge-subscribed to a non- confirming mailing list he/she is >> running. > >Hmm. The problem with your strategy is that in response to an >offence committed by some unknown miscreant, made possible by the >carelessness/laziness/ignorance of a list admin, you swear at all the >subscribers to that list. It's like bombing a town flat because a >cop let a hoodlum escape and go to your place to rob you. Like it? Yes, I suppose so, with one rather important difference. Nobody dies or is maimed. >It's targetting the wromg people, and it doesn't help. Wrong on both counts. The list participants (and their opinions) tend to have an effect upon the behavior of the list admin. I have tried to get _many_ list admins to add some trivial security to the subscription process for their lists via personal E-mail messages just be- tween me and them, and in general I have found that they feel that have better things to do with their time (e.g. playing golf). I attribute this to the fact that (a) they don't know me from Adam and (b) they don't really give a rat's ass about how _I_ think they should configure their lists. However when several of the list participatants (with whom the admin has a longstanding and pre-existing relationship) are encouraged to write to the list admin, asking him/her why he/she is such a bozo to have allowed that Guilmette crank to have gotten subscribed against his will, _then_ results are produced and changes in configuration ensue. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. >If you want a target for your anger, and you can't find the culprit... You don't seem to understand. And lits admin who is running a mailing list that blindly accepts forged subscriptions _is_ `the culprit'. As far as I'm concerned, they are every bit as guilty as the net-hooligans who create the forged subscriptions. It takes _both_ a net-hooligan _and_ an incompentent/careless list admin to create one of these forged subscriptions. Remove either one from the equation and these things no longer happen. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 12:07:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA24578; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grande.dcc.unicamp.br (grande.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.1.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA24557 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.7.11]) by grande.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26464; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:56:51 -0300 (EST) Received: from pascal.dcc.unicamp.br (pascal.dcc.unicamp.br [143.106.24.2]) by amazonas.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA08858; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:56:50 -0300 (EST) Received: (from euzebio@localhost) by pascal.dcc.unicamp.br (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05235; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:56:50 -0300 (EST) From: "Marcos J. C. Euzebio" Message-Id: <199804291856.PAA05235@pascal.dcc.unicamp.br> Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners To: rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:56:49 -0300 (EST) Cc: digest@biodata.NET, NEW-LIST@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, phil@biodata.NET In-Reply-To: <13382.893829502@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at Apr 28, 98 10:58:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > In message <199804270200.TAA13123@honor.greatcircle.com>, you wrote: > > >LIST-Digest on majordomo@biodata.net FREE > > > >Essential for all list-owners, moderators, editors and managers > > > >List-digest is for discussion, disseminating information, exchanging > >ideas, experiences and list promotion strategies. Also discussed are > >themes like the proper use of lists, the purpose, the scope, the future > >and various other related technical and non-technical issues. > > > >TO SUBSCRIBE send E-mail to majordomo@biodata.net > >with the BODY containing the command > > > > subscribe list-digest > > > >or goto http://www.biodata.net/digest > > > >List-digest is hosted by biodata.net > >Biodata.net hosts the friendliest LIST-SEARCH engine > >called search-a-list. http://www.biodata.net > > > >Search-a-list - List search Engine > > > >You may submit details of your lists in this recently launched. > >search engine having very easy to use, user friendly interface. > >Search queries are based on keyword/s, and any keyword > >related to your list will make it appear in the search results. > >Search results are presented in very efficient style and potential > >subscriber will be able to subscribe right from the result page. > > > >You may submit your lists as soon as you may go to your web browser > >http://www.biodata.net/searchlist/submit.htm > > > >Owner: listsearch@biodata.net > > a project of center for global trade development > > > >Moderator: Phil Clearwater phil@biodata.net > > Regarding your search service... > > Have you taken adequate precautions to insure that it will not be strip- > mined by spammers looking for new target E-mail addresses? > > Inquiring minds want to know. > > > -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. > -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ > -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ > > From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 13:12:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA26584; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA26564 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id NAA15036; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:57:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980429135718.A12795@swcp.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:57:18 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MajorDomo Header/Footer insertion Web interface script. Mail-Followup-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET>; from Chris Newman on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:33:16AM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:33:16AM -0700, Chris Newman wrote: > We are in the process of installing MajorDomo and MajorCool. The only utility > which seems to be missing is a script which creates a Web page GUI for the > automatic insertion of headers and footers in outgoing messages. Majordomo controls message headers and footers in the listname.config file. Not sure where a web script would come in on the process. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 14:07:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28865; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28857 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199804292029.claire.98047419@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:29:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk References: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:37:04 +0100. <199804291237.claire.98047294@siberia.demon.co.uk> In-reply-to: <32473.893872726@monkeys.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 29 Apr 98 at 10:58, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >It's targetting the wromg people, and it doesn't help. > > Wrong on both counts. > > The list participants (and their opinions) tend to have an effect > upon the behavior of the list admin. Ron, do you really reckon that the best way to encourage them to have an effect is to pour out 4-letter words, as you claim to do? Have you ever tried asking nicely? The *only* persons with you have a legitimate grievance are the listbomber and the list admin. Flaming the list members is the same morality as hostage-taking -- possibly effective, but deeply repulsive. The list members don't choose the MLM software, and don't configure it: please leave them out of it. If you want to try agressive tactics (and yours breach the AUP of many ISPs), then please choose your targets more selectively. Saying that people don't get hurt is not true :( Someone like you was subbed to a support list which I run. His abusive rants were very upsetting to some ppl who were in a fragile state. I count that as *real* hurt, especially since I've seen a good few ppl on support lists being rescued from suicide attempts by the prompt support of other listmembers -- which was available because the list is a safe, flame-free space, something that's imperilled by a flamer. Just because the door isn't properly locked, there's no excuse for wilfully destroying that. > I have tried to get _many_ list admins to add some trivial security > to the subscription process for their lists via personal E-mail > messages just between me and them, and in general I have found > that they feel that have better things to do with their time > (e.g. playing golf). I attribute this to the fact that (a) they > don't know me from Adam and (b) they don't really give a rat's > ass about how _I_ think they should configure their lists. If you are as rude as you claim to be, I'm not entirely surprised :( I quite agree on the need for subscription confirmation, but honey generally catches more flies than vinegar. And do remember that for many list admins, they have a stark choice between no list and one without subscription confirmation. I was in that situation myself: I didn't like it, but no amount of abuse from anyone would change the situation. > >If you want a target for your anger, and you can't find the culprit... > > You don't seem to understand. And lits admin who is running a mailing list > that blindly accepts forged subscriptions _is_ `the culprit'. > As far as I'm concerned, they are every bit as guilty as the net-hooligans > who create the forged subscriptions. So target the list *admin* if you really want to go about it that way. But leave the list members out of it. Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 14:24:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28940; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28933 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA11881; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:09:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25303; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:09:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:09:54 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <32473.893872726@monkeys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > The squeaky wheel gets the grease. If you were to pull your "raise hell" show on one of my lists, I might muzzle you and LOCK IN your subscription. With a little luck, you may stumble across a list admin who has a clue and the right software. Your stunt could easily back-fire. > You don't seem to understand. And lits admin who is running a > mailing list that blindly accepts forged subscriptions _is_ `the > culprit'. > > As far as I'm concerned, they are every bit as guilty as the > net-hooligans who create the forged subscriptions. > > It takes _both_ a net-hooligan _and_ an incompentent/careless list > admin to create one of these forged subscriptions. Remove either > one from the equation and these things no longer happen. Though I might disagree with the wording, most of what you said is substantially correct. There really is not much excuse for running an open subscription, *public*, mailing list. Admins who do have open automatic subscriptions without confirmation are contributing to the problem. Personally, I will go out of my way to prevent my resources from being used to abuse someone else. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 14:45:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA29752; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA29745 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA10073 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA06573 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:42:20 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:09:54 -0400. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:42:20 -0700 Message-ID: <6571.893886140@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , murr rhame wrote: >On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> The squeaky wheel gets the grease. > >If you were to pull your "raise hell" show on one of my lists... Why would I ever do that?? Are you running mailing lists that allow forged subscriptions with no confirmation?? >I might muzzle you and LOCK IN your subscription. In which case I would setup procmail so that each message arriving here from your list would be bounced back to your list, or to you, or to your postmaster, or to your upstream's postmaster, or... That would be real fun, now wouldn't it? >With a little luck, >you may stumble across a list admin who has a clue and the right >software. Your stunt could easily back-fire. As I have just noted, attempts at retribution can easily and quickly es- calate into an all-out nuclear confrontation in which _everyone_ loses. So all things considered, it's best not to even go there. Don't press the button unless _you_ are also ready to experience Mutually Assured Destruction. Bottom line? This isn't a game, and if _you_ are the screw-up in the first instance... i.e. the one allowing your lists to be used as weapons by various and sudry net-hooligans... then you had best just admit your mistake and fix your problem and then go about your business quietly. Starting an online arms race with someone else whose capabilities you can only guess at would be a very dangerous game indeed, and could easily backfire on _you_. >Though I might disagree with the wording, most of what you said is >substantially correct. There really is not much excuse for running an >open subscription, *public*, mailing list. Admins who do have open >automatic subscriptions without confirmation are contributing to the >problem. I am glad to see that we _do_ have more than a little common ground here. Many may object to my sometimes heavy-handed tatics, but I believe that all responsible members of this list, and indeed all responsible list admins everywhere do in fact agree than none of us wishes to allow the normally useful utility of mailing lists to be turned to the improper purpose of making net-mischief. >Personally, I will go out of my way to prevent my resources >from being used to abuse someone else. I take you at your word, and assume that is true, and that (thus) all of the lists you run require affirmative subscription confirmations. And assuming that _that_ is true, you may sleep soundly knowing that you and I will never have any reason to feel offended by the actions of the other. Peace man. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 15:25:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01378; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA01364 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12534 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA07956 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:25:35 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:29:49 +0100. <199804292029.claire.98047419@siberia.demon.co.uk> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:25:35 -0700 Message-ID: <7954.893888735@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804292029.claire.98047419@siberia.demon.co.uk>, Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk wrote: >On 29 Apr 98 at 10:58, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> >It's targetting the wromg people, and it doesn't help. >> >> Wrong on both counts. >> >> The list participants (and their opinions) tend to have an effect >> upon the behavior of the list admin. > >Ron, do you really reckon that the best way to encourage them to >have an effect is to pour out 4-letter words, as you claim to do? Yup. >Have you ever tried asking nicely? Yup. Several times. It doesn't work. >The *only* persons with you have a legitimate grievance are the >listbomber and the list admin. Flaming the list members is the same >morality as hostage-taking -- possibly effective, but deeply >repulsive. The analogy is a poor one. I prefer to think of it as being more like striping the list admin naked, painting the word `STUPID' in big red letter acroos his buttocks, and then making him stand backwards in front of his own family for an hour. >The list members don't choose the MLM software, and don't configure >it: please leave them out of it. If you want to try agressive >tactics (and yours breach the AUP of many ISPs), Every mailing list administrators on the entire Internet who is running a mailing list without any subscription confirmations is breaking _my_ AUP. Them's *my* rules! >Saying that people don't get hurt is not true :( Someone like you >was subbed to a support list which I run. So you allow forged subscriptions with no confirmations?? If so, then you are blowing it bigtime. >His abusive rants were >very upsetting to some ppl who were in a fragile state. Yes. I can see how that might be true. You should not be exposing people in a fragil state to other people who are likely to be very annoyed at having been forge-subscribed onto your list. >I count that >as *real* hurt, especially since I've seen a good few ppl on support >lists being rescued from suicide attempts by the prompt support of >other listmembers -- which was available because the list is a safe, >flame-free space, something that's imperilled by a flamer. Just >because the door isn't properly locked, there's no excuse for >wilfully destroying that. I don't make exceptions. I suggest that you get off your ass and secure your list. If you don't, and if _I_ get forge-subscribed onto your list, you and your members will get my standard treatment. You *know* what you have to do in order to lock down your list properly, so if you fail to do it, then let the consequences be on *your* head. >> I have tried to get _many_ list admins to add some trivial security >> to the subscription process for their lists via personal E-mail >> messages just between me and them, and in general I have found >> that they feel that have better things to do with their time >> (e.g. playing golf). I attribute this to the fact that (a) they >> don't know me from Adam and (b) they don't really give a rat's >> ass about how _I_ think they should configure their lists. > >If you are as rude as you claim to be, I'm not entirely surprised :( >I quite agree on the need for subscription confirmation, but honey >generally catches more flies than vinegar. What am I supposed to do exactly?? Find every idiot list admin on the planet and promise to pay each one a bribe if they will just get off their asses and start doing their jobs in a responsible fashion?? >And do remember that for >many list admins, they have a stark choice between no list and one >without subscription confirmation. Works for me. If you (or anyone) can't run a list in a way that isn't abusive (or poten- tially abusive) to _all_ of your millions of fellow netizens all over the globe, then please get yourself a radio call-in show instead, or do *some- thing*, anything else, but please don't remain on the same network as me. The world existed for untold millenia _before_ you and your mailing list came along, and it will probably manage to survive somehow even after your list disappears (or morphs into a radio call-in show). Even if you really do not want your list to disappear, if _you_ can't ad- minister it properly (and in a non abusive way) then please consider stepping aside and letting someone more well-clued have a whack at it. (This isn't directed at you in particular. My comments here are meant to apply equally to _all_ list admins.) >I was in that situation myself: I >didn't like it, but no amount of abuse from anyone would change the >situation. Translation: I knew I was running a badly configured and potentially abusive mailing list, but to hell with everbody else on the planet. Me and my needs come first. Have you ever considered taking up spamming? You already have the ethical mindset for it. Now all you need is some spamware and a target address list or two. >So target the list *admin* if you really want to go about it that >way. But leave the list members out of it. Sorry. No can do. The net is a single large lifeboat. As far as I'm concerned, we are all gonna learn how to be non-annoying or else we are all going to be annoyed. We all sink or swim together, and nobody can just stand on the sidelines and claim that they don't want to be involved. If you are on the net, then by definition you _are_ involved, and it is as much your responsibility to pickup the net-litter as it is the next guy's. If you are on a mailing list and if you are benefitting from that, then it is as much your responsi- bility to tell the list admin not to behave stupidly as it is anyone else's. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 29 18:08:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA05995; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA05988 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28924; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:57:08 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Wed, 29 Apr 98 17:57 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07976; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:50:47 -0700 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:50:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <6571.893886140@monkeys.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 Coincidence, n.: You weren't paying attention to the other half of what was going on. From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 05:52:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA19926; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA19919 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:51:55 -0700 (PDT) From: mht@clark.net Received: from highlander ([12.68.13.155]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAB8827 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:53:41 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980430085236.007634d8@pop3.clark.net> X-Sender: mht@pop3.clark.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:52:36 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Managing Mailing Lists book by O'reilly In-Reply-To: References: <6571.893886140@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all, Just wondering if anyboyd had a chance to pick up the book Managing Mailing Lists book by O'reilly?? Opinions do matter, likes/dislikes, comments. Thanks in advance. /mht From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 10:37:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24638; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24631 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA01376 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06945 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:17:26 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:59:10 +0200. <199804300859.KAA00886@leibniz.math.ethz.ch> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:17:26 -0700 Message-ID: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199804300859.KAA00886@leibniz.math.ethz.ch>, Norbert Bollow wrote: >Ron, > Surely I understand your anger. But I still think you're overreacting >a bit. I think that instead of posting four-letter words, you should make >a post in polite yet very clear language which says essentially the same >things, and in addition recommends a consultant who is willing to assist >clueless list-admins with setting up their lists properly, for a fee of >course. Do you have a URL for such a list? >> I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it >> each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be >> forge-subscribed to a non-confirming mailing list he/she is >> running. > >Hmm... is there a standards-track RFC yet which specifies that all >public mailing lists MUST use a subscription procedure which is >strictly *opt-in* and properly secured against forge-subscribes? I don't know of any. I also don't know of any law that says that you shouldn't put used chewing gum in the coin return slot on pay pay phones, but fortunately, most people are smart enough to realize on their own that doing so is fundamentally anti-social. >> It takes _both_ a net-hooligan _and_ an incompentent/careless list admin >> to create one of these forged subscriptions. Remove either one from the >> equation and these things no longer happen. > >True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by >people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper >mailing-list set-up. Name three. >These people are competent in other areas and they >deserve our respect for their work in areas where they're competent. It seems altogether self-evident to me (as I trust it does also to the ma- jority of people on _this_ mailing list) that simply having a skill or some special/advanced knowledge in some particular area of human endeavor is _not_ a sufficient qualification, by itself, to run an E-mail mailing list on the Internet. Open heart surgeons, bacterial palentologists, and international tax experts quite certainly all have specialized and advanced knowledge which the average netizen lacks and which might be usefully applied to the task of _moderating_ mailing lists dedicated to these subjects, but as time progresses and as the net become ever more populated with bozos and net- hooligans, it is more and more clear all the time that the day-to-day me- chanics of the _administration_ of a mailing list is something which, for all our sakes, is best left in the hands of people well versed in _that_ specialty. I mean let's face it... there _are_ many case in everyday life where you want to have someone doing the job who really knows what the hell they are doing. You would not allow a person with three advanced degrees in the history of the Middle Ages do your next root canal no matter how brilliant they appeared to be in their chosen field. Likewise, just be- cause some bloke is widely recognized as one of the world's foremost author- ities on fluid mechanics, that does not imply that he understands the word ``bounce'' in the content of E-mail mailing lists, that he would know what to do with one if he got one, or that he should be allowed within a country mile of a majordomo configuration file. Along with many other things which have been rendered obsolete by the arrival of the Great Unwashed Masses, amatuerism in systems administration _and_ in mailing list administration is no longer a viable option on the modern In- ternet. You would not allow a professional endochronologist to install a security/alarm system in your house or car simly on the basis of the fact that ``he must be smart'' (well... _I_ wouldn't anyway) and I see no com- pelling reason to make a similar sort of mistake when it comes to systems security arrangements or mailing list security arrangements on the Internet. >I've been on the net long enough to know better than to be surprised or angered >by the occasional flame war, but I am still convinced not only that there >is a better way but also that is plain wrong to classify anyone as >"incompetent"... OK. Give me a different word then. What do _you_ call it when someone gives _both_ the keys to the car _and_ the keys to the liquor cabinet to a group of teenagers on a Saturday night? As far as I'm concerned, when list admins setup things so that they are blindly accepting forged subscriptions, that is almost the same thing. >BTW, I'm sure it would be possible to design an e-mail filter that will >automatically post a properly-worded message to any e-mail list to which >you get forge-subscribed. That's rather besides the point, don't you think? Just because _I_ have sufficient skills to protect myself from all of the miscreants and incompetents on the entire global Internet, that does not mean that the rest of our online society is similarly fortunate. I worry about all of the rest of you as much as I worry about me, and the Right Place to stop stupidity is as close to the source as possible... *before* its effects leak out all over the planet. (My years in the spam wars have taught me this lesson all too well.) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 11:37:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25911; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25904 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06270; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09369; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700 To: Marty Hoag Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:04 -0500. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: <9367.893961524@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wro te: > I don't know who you intended this for but my position is that spamming >should be illegal. Removing key information such as who made a post to a >public archive is counterproductive and only affects historical data. If >a user absolutely does not want to have their address used then they >should not send out any e-mail to anyone else... > > Marty NEW-LIST Owner/Editor I never suggested that you ``remove key information''. I merely suggested that you should make the processes of ``strip mining'' your web site for large numbers of E-mail addresses unworkable for spammers. You can do this very easily by implementing an exponential delay/backoff for sequential fetches of web pages belonging to your site in cases where those sequential fetches are coming from a single IP address over a short period of time. Quite simply, the first request for a page which might carry a ``minable'' E-mail address would come up immediately, but if a second request for a second such page came to your web server (from the same IP address) within (say) 10 seconds, then you would delay sending the page to the requestor for 1 second. If the next following request from that same IP address also followed within 10 seconds, then you would delay sending back the next page for 2 seconds, and then 4, and then 8, etc. This is a simple way to make ``strip mining'' of address from your web archives of mailing lists unworkable in practice for the person trying to do the minimg. Please implement it. Other similar archiving services already have done so. I would be more than happy to provide any and all technical assistance you may need in order to implement this simple delay scheme at no cost to you. P.S. The exponential backoff/delay scheme also has the additional advantage of conserving your available CPU cycles and making them quickly available to people who only want to view one or a few pages at your site. People who just drop by for a quick peek at a page or two will get maximal re- sponsiveness from your web site, while others who engage in long sessions consisting of a lot of closely-spaced page requests will not impact the apparent speed and performance of your web service as viewed by other ``brief'' users. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 12:15:05 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA26550; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA26543 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:02:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11190; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:03:35 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Thu, 30 Apr 98 12:03 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13898; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:03:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:03:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by > >people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper > >mailing-list set-up. > > Name three. Three? I could name 100 if you really wanted that, but to start off there is the madness family (aproximately 15 lists), the SCI family, (4 lists), most disability lists (hundreds of lists), most queer lists (again hundreds of lists). I know you only asked for three, but I gave you aproximately 20 that I know for sure, and, probably close to a thousand other lists. > hooligans, it is more and more clear all the time that the day-to-day me- > chanics of the _administration_ of a mailing list is something which, for > all our sakes, is best left in the hands of people well versed in _that_ > specialty. I mean let's face it... there _are_ many case in everyday life Most of us, have picked up our list admin skills not from some technical manual, but from actualy admininstrating a list. Quite often this is a matter of having some limited technical background in computers, and some knowledge that is worth having a mailing list for. What you apear to be sugesting is that only people with a ``cectificate of list admininstration'' be granted the right to run a list. Of those 20 lists that I mentioned above, they are almost all really well run, but they would not be running at all if there needed to be a qualified list admin. > OK. Give me a different word then. What do _you_ call it when someone gives > _both_ the keys to the car _and_ the keys to the liquor cabinet to a group > of teenagers on a Saturday night? As far as I'm concerned, when list admins > setup things so that they are blindly accepting forged subscriptions, that > is almost the same thing. Many lists that I belong to do not have confirmation on them. This could be a concious decison by the list admin, or it could be an oversite. I would not call the people as SIRS Mandarin incompetent. Maybe lacking some knowledge as to the dangers of having open subscriptions. But they also have some knowledge of the technical level of some of their subscribers, knowing that many of them would most likely not be on the list if it were not for the fact that it IS an open subscription. > Just because _I_ have sufficient skills to protect myself from all of the > miscreants and incompetents on the entire global Internet, that does not > mean that the rest of our online society is similarly fortunate. I worry > about all of the rest of you as much as I worry about me, and the Right > Place to stop stupidity is as close to the source as possible... *before* > its effects leak out all over the planet. (My years in the spam wars have > taught me this lesson all too well.) My years in the spam wars have taught me one thing that I think you are yet to learn. The most efficient way to deal with messages you do not want is quietly, without the person on the other end even knowing. I have halfed my spam by NOT replying to any spam message. I wouldn't be surprised if you halfed your forged subscriptions if you were not an asshole to people who have cost you a small inconvinience. Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 UH-OH!! I put on "GREAT HEAD-ON TRAIN COLLISIONS of the 50's" by mistake!!! From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 12:39:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA27276; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cheech.ihug.co.nz (cheech.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27267 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p11-max5.well.ihug.co.nz [202.49.241.11]) by cheech.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA00070 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 07:28:11 +1200 Message-ID: <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 07:26:01 +1200 From: Olwen Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message <199804300859.KAA00886@leibniz.math.ethz.ch>, > Norbert Bollow wrote: > > >True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by > >people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper > >mailing-list set-up. > > Name three. My obesity surgery support list for a start. I knew zilch about running a mailing list when I started it, and the only reason I started it was that I could not believe that there was not a list already. No one else seemed to be volunteering to set up a list. I didn't have sponsership for the list. It just seemed as if it needed doing, and time has proved that. Pull you head in Ron, your postings seems to smack of techno-arrogance to me. People are here to learn and your attitude doesn't make me for one want to stay. Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? Could he have antagonised people so that they do this to him. -- Olwen Williams (olwen@ihug.co.nz) in Wellington, New Zealand 140 Kg, Nov 96 125 Kg, 4 Mar 97 RGB 75 Kg, Late April 98 http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~olwen ICQ Personal 1220247, OSSG-Olwen Chatroom 5755408 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 12:52:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA27511; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA27504 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yUzBl-0006fT-00; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:40:13 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980430203912.00989330@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:39:12 +0100 To: Chris Newman From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: MajorDomo Header/Footer insertion Web interface script. Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:33 29/04/98 -0700, Chris Newman wrote: >We are in the process of installing MajorDomo and MajorCool. The only utility >which seems to be missing is a script which creates a Web page GUI for the >automatic insertion of headers and footers in outgoing messages. > >Can someone point us to such a script or do you have one which you would care >to share? It's a standard list feature for majordomo - see the config file options - theye are called a fronter and footer (message_fronter and message_footer). Chris - I was due to get back to re an extended but not too well tied together yet package using exim/majordomo/majorcool and a few new things - are you still interested. (was ill for a week and I'm still clearing a back-log). From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 14:52:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA29885; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA29835 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA00766; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25977; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:41:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:41:39 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are > > run by people who are not knowledgeable about the technical > > aspects of proper mailing-list set-up. > > Name three. I would say that MOST list-admins are not particularly knowledgeable about the technical aspects mailing-list set-up. I hope that most site mangers and others who run their own server are a little better. Then again, there are a bunch of clue-free listowner/server-operators running lists through dialup connects on small desktop platforms. I suspect that you have grossly overestimated the technical competency of the average listowner. - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 15:37:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01169; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA01162 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08279; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:26:41 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Jason Rasku on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:03:55PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:03:55PM -0700, Jason Rasku wrote: > On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > Name three. > > I know you only asked for three, but I gave > you aproximately 20 that I know for sure, and, probably close to a > thousand other lists. [...] Yes, you did. However, you did not answer the question. (It's a flip question, but I do see Ron's point, and would like to see a real answer to it.) > Most of us, have picked up our list admin skills not from some > technical manual, but from actualy admininstrating a list. Quite often > this is a matter of having some limited technical background in computers, > and some knowledge that is worth having a mailing list for. What you > apear to be sugesting is that only people with a ``cectificate of list > admininstration'' be granted the right to run a list. I don't think Ron is suggesting any such thing. I think what Ron is suggesting is that people who do not know the difference between "listserv" and "a mailing list", what an MX record does, what EXPN and VRFY are and what they do, and similar bits of information are simply not competent to run a mailing list. This does not make such people Bad People, simply incompetent in one particular area of life. The remedy is to either (a) convince them to achieve competency or (b) get them to turn the reins over to someone who is. The problem is that many of these newbie list managers don't recognize their own incompetence and stubbornly insist on inflicting it on themselves, their subscribers, and (and here is the key) *the rest of us*. You wanna be on a badly-managed, screwed-up, hosed mailing list? That's fine. I have no problem with that -- really, I don't. But when said mailing lists' screwed-up state impacts *me*, I have a huge problem with it. And this is starting to happen -- to me, and to other third parties -- far more often than before. Hence the need for list managers to either know their stuff *or* get someone who does to handle the mechanics of their list(s). Unfortunately, various software vendors/web sites/etc. are exacerbating the problem by propagating the myth that Anyone Can Run a Mailing List (TM)! And with their point-and-drool interfaces that make Setting Up a Mailing List a Snap (TM) they are responsible for some of the worst dreck out there. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 16:22:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02553; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA02546 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id RAA05123; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:50 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org>; from Rich Kulawiec on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 06:26:41PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 06:26:41PM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > The problem is that many of these newbie list managers don't recognize > their own incompetence and stubbornly insist on inflicting it on themselves, > their subscribers, and (and here is the key) *the rest of us*. I think a big percentage of the responsibility for this lies in the laps of the mailing list *site* admins who a) set up lists with a default configuration that is broken from Day One and who b) don't bother making people read the list software documentation before actually handing over the reins. The "clueless newbies" who don't know how to change their list configurations to prevent open subscriptions are unlikely to be changing their list configurations to inadvertently allow them if they're given a default config that requires subscription verification. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 16:28:37 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA02651; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA02644 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23319 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18095 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:31:38 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 07:26:01 +1200. <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:31:38 -0700 Message-ID: <18093.893979098@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>, Olwen Williams wrote: >> Name three. > >My obesity surgery support list for a start. I knew zilch about running >a mailing list when I started it, and the only reason I started it was >that I could not believe that there was not a list already. No one else >seemed to be volunteering to set up a list. I didn't have sponsership >for the list. It just seemed as if it needed doing, and time has proved >that. > >Pull you head in Ron, your postings seems to smack of techno-arrogance >to me. That's fine by me. Look, I don't do obesity surgery. I stay out of that completely and leave it entirely to the experts. All I ask in return is that obesity surgeons stay out of the business of trying to pretend like they know what the hell they are doing when it comes to computers in general, and mailing lists in particular. >People are here to learn and your attitude doesn't make me for >one want to stay. I'll be sorry to see you go, but that's your decision. I am not going to apologize for my beliefs that (a) mailing lists can be dangerous and that (b) there are some awfully clue-impared people running some of these things who shouldn't be. >Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it >happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? It says that I have controversial opinions. So what's yer point? Are you suggesting that anyone with controversial opions deserves to be mailbombed? Is that what you are really trying to say? I don't think that you really means that, but if you do, that I would have to say that you have about as much respect for free speech online as did the people who wrote the CDA (e.g. Senator Exon). It seems that as far as _you_ are concerned anyone who got mailbombed back in the old days for being anti-apartide (sp?) or anyone who gets mailbombed these days for being pro-choice just deserves what they get. _I_ have been subscription bombed three times by spammers who don't like the fact that (and, not coincodently, a few thousand other people) are working constantly to get their accounts yanked. >Could he have antagonised people so that they do this to him. I did and I freely admit that. I antagonized spammers by asking them and their service providers not to spam people. However the vast majority of people online who I have spoken to seem to feel that the work that I do is good and useful and (yes) even noble, and most _thank_ me for doing it. Being controversial is not the same as being evil and no, being contro- versial DOES NOT mean that you deserve to me mailbombed (as you seem to imply). I suggest that you rethink your attitudes about this. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 16:37:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03046; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA03032 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24081 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18473 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:45:31 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:50 -0600. <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:45:31 -0700 Message-ID: <18471.893979931@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com>, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 06:26:41PM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > >> The problem is that many of these newbie list managers don't recognize >> their own incompetence and stubbornly insist on inflicting it on themselves, >> their subscribers, and (and here is the key) *the rest of us*. > >I think a big percentage of the responsibility for this lies in the laps of >the mailing list *site* admins... Yes. Definitely. I've had plenty of conversations now with lots of site admins at various .edu sites (and also at a .com site or two) who have been made to feel that (for political reasons) they have to allow some real boneheads to setup, configure, and run their own lists any bloody way they want _and_ with little or no specific guidance. It is a sad state of affairs. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 16:52:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03062; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mermaid.shore.net (mermaid.shore.net [207.244.124.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA03050 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org [204.167.97.154] (jeffw) by mermaid.shore.net with esmtp (Exim) id 0yV2vO-0005Ls-00; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:39:35 -0400 Received: (from jeffw@localhost) by smoe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7/daemon-mode-relay2) id TAA10502; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980430194152.N566@smoe.org> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:41:52 -0400 From: Jeff Wasilko To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com>; from "Lazlo Nibble" on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 05:12:50PM -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 05:12:50PM -0600, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > the mailing list *site* admins who a) set up lists with a default configuration > that is broken from Day One and who b) don't bother making people read the > list software documentation before actually handing over the reins. The > "clueless newbies" who don't know how to change their list configurations to > prevent open subscriptions are unlikely to be changing their list > configurations to inadvertently allow them if they're given a default config > that requires subscription verification. I agree. We host about 45 lists here, with listowners ranging from complete newbies to seasoned veterans. I try to pair up 'newbies' with veterans, so that they have a resource available. I also set minimum requirements, like requiring that all lists use confirmation, that all lists be hidden from the 'which' command, and that bounces be dealt with quickly. Confirmation and hiding the lists are defaults when I create the list. Site owners play an important role in preventing list abuse... Jeff From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 16:56:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03336; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA03319 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id TAA20267; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:52:32 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from galileo.cris.com (galileo.concentric.net [206.173.119.84]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id TAA20566; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:52:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Olusegun O. Ogidan" X-Sender: Valtd1@galileo.cris.com To: Lazlo Nibble cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Listers: I have only been on this list for a day or two. Already, I have read thorns of ABUSIVE mail and wonder why this is indeed a list for list-managers. Is it suddenly a sin to share talents? If everyone had kep their talents to themselves, how could the computer technology have evolved thus far? Isn't your ideas and mine that make computing less frightening and a wonderful experience? I have to say that I AM AWFULLY DISAPPOINTED with adult conduct on the list-managers list. I think I will be signing off this list. It is now crystally clear that I WON'T learn anything here and will be forced to put up with all sorts of abusive language. Sincerely, Olusegun O. Ogidan List Administrator ana-cpc ana-mc On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 06:26:41PM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > > The problem is that many of these newbie list managers don't recognize > > their own incompetence and stubbornly insist on inflicting it on themselves, > > their subscribers, and (and here is the key) *the rest of us*. > > I think a big percentage of the responsibility for this lies in the laps of > the mailing list *site* admins who a) set up lists with a default configuration > that is broken from Day One and who b) don't bother making people read the > list software documentation before actually handing over the reins. The > "clueless newbies" who don't know how to change their list configurations to > prevent open subscriptions are unlikely to be changing their list > configurations to inadvertently allow them if they're given a default config > that requires subscription verification. > > -- > ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) > ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists > From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 17:23:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA04040; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chong.ihug.co.nz (chong.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA04033 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p3-max4.well.ihug.co.nz [202.49.241.67]) by chong.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12208 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:22:57 +1200 Message-ID: <35491559.AEC73C2B@ihug.co.nz> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:20:42 +1200 From: Olwen Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <18093.893979098@monkeys.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > In message <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>, > Olwen Williams wrote: > > > > >My obesity surgery support list for a start. I knew zilch about running > >a mailing list when I started it, and the only reason I started it was > >that I could not believe that there was not a list already. No one else > >seemed to be volunteering to set up a list. I didn't have sponsership > >for the list. It just seemed as if it needed doing, and time has proved > >that. > > > >Pull you head in Ron, your postings seems to smack of techno-arrogance > >to me. > > That's fine by me. > > Look, I don't do obesity surgery. I stay out of that completely and leave > it entirely to the experts. All I ask in return is that obesity surgeons > stay out of the business of trying to pretend like they know what the hell > they are doing when it comes to computers in general, and mailing lists in > particular. I don't do obesity surgery either. I had it done to me by a man competent in the field, but he didn't provide any post-op support. If you had read this your would have seen that it's a support list, not a surgery list. Now I'm not a support person either, but I needed a place where it was okay to talk about the fact that I was having problems adjusting to the changes, or that I was really pleased to be under 200 lbs. There was nowhere I could find where that sort of talk was on-topic, so I set up a mailing list to talk to people in a similar situation. I suspect that many lists get set up that way. > > >People are here to learn and your attitude doesn't make me for > >one want to stay. > > I'll be sorry to see you go, but that's your decision. I am not going to > apologize for my beliefs that (a) mailing lists can be dangerous and that > (b) there are some awfully clue-impared people running some of these things > who shouldn't be. > > >Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it > >happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? > > It says that I have controversial opinions. So what's yer point? Are you > suggesting that anyone with controversial opions deserves to be mailbombed? > Is that what you are really trying to say? > > I don't think that you really means that, but if you do, that I would have > to say that you have about as much respect for free speech online as did > the people who wrote the CDA (e.g. Senator Exon). It seems that as far as > _you_ are concerned anyone who got mailbombed back in the old days for > being anti-apartide (sp?) or anyone who gets mailbombed these days for > being pro-choice just deserves what they get. > I'm afaraid I don't know what the CDA is. That could be beacuse I'm not an American. Now I know that some people feels that means I shouldn't be on the internet. Maybe I was a bit harsh in my statements, and I probably violated one of the rules of my own mailing list which is politeness. > _I_ have been subscription bombed three times by spammers who don't like > the fact that (and, not coincodently, a few thousand other people) are > working constantly to get their accounts yanked. > > >Could he have antagonised people so that they do this to him. > > I did and I freely admit that. I antagonized spammers by asking them and > their service providers not to spam people. However the vast majority of > people online who I have spoken to seem to feel that the work that I do > is good and useful and (yes) even noble, and most _thank_ me for doing it. > > Being controversial is not the same as being evil and no, being contro- > versial DOES NOT mean that you deserve to me mailbombed (as you seem to > imply). > > I suggest that you rethink your attitudes about this. > > -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. > -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ > -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ -- Olwen Williams (olwen@ihug.co.nz) in Wellington, New Zealand 140 Kg, Nov 96 125 Kg, 4 Mar 97 RGB 75 Kg, Late April 98 http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~olwen ICQ Personal 1220247, OSSG-Olwen Chatroom 5755408 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 17:28:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03935; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kootcom.kootenay.net (kootcom.kootenay.net [209.52.230.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03928 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by kootcom.kootenay.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA15252; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:13:46 GMT Received: from ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca by kootcom.kootenay.net; Thu, 30 Apr 98 17:13 PDT Received: from localhost (jrasku@localhost) by ArmispianSystems.Rossland.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15765; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:15:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Rasku Reply-To: Jason Rasku To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:03:55PM -0700, Jason Rasku wrote: > > On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > > Name three. > > > > I know you only asked for three, but I gave > > you aproximately 20 that I know for sure, and, probably close to a > > thousand other lists. [...] > > Yes, you did. > > However, you did not answer the question. (It's a flip question, > but I do see Ron's point, and would like to see a real answer to it.) I did not answer the question? Please tell me what the question was again. If I recall correctly it was ``name three mailing lists that provide good information, that are not run by cmopetent people,'' If I am not mistaken, that is PRECICLY what I did. Okay, I did not name them per se, but I DID list them in terms of groups. > > Most of us, have picked up our list admin skills not from some > > technical manual, but from actualy admininstrating a list. Quite often > > this is a matter of having some limited technical background in computers, > > and some knowledge that is worth having a mailing list for. What you > > apear to be sugesting is that only people with a ``cectificate of list > > admininstration'' be granted the right to run a list. > > I don't think Ron is suggesting any such thing. I think what Ron is > suggesting is that people who do not know the difference between "listserv" > and "a mailing list", what an MX record does, what EXPN and VRFY are > and what they do, and similar bits of information are simply not > competent to run a mailing list. Are you then sugesting that I not run a mailing list? I don't have a clue what you are talking about, I don't know what a MX record does, I don't have a clue what you mean by EXPN, or VRFY. Maybe if you did not insist on using jargon, then people would be able to understand you. I have a ROUGH idea of what an MX record does, but other than that I do not need to know that to run a mailing list, or for that matter an e-mail server. As for EXPN, and VRFY, I realise that they most likely refer to expresion, and verify, but I don't know anyting about the context that you are using them in, and they are entirely meaningless out of that context. > This does not make such people Bad People, simply incompetent in one > particular area of life. The remedy is to either (a) convince them > to achieve competency or (b) get them to turn the reins over to > someone who is. Does a person need to pass a competency exam in order to have achieved competency, or is it good enough that their list runs well? I would say the latter. Many lists that I am on are not run according to what some people on here seem to think is absolutely esential, but I have seen very little in the way of problems with the list. I get people on lists that are run by the standards that you have set out, that people post inpolite messages to ``unsubscribe me or else.'' The problems have NOTHING to do with the list, but to do with the person posting the message. > The problem is that many of these newbie list managers don't recognize > their own incompetence and stubbornly insist on inflicting it on themselves, > their subscribers, and (and here is the key) *the rest of us*. I have not run into this. I have at one time been subscribe bombed, but I had NO intention of blaming the list owners if I happened to be subscribed to their list, I would quietly sugest that they secure their list, and quietly unsubscribe. I DID ask if they were able to trace the subscribe request, which they were unable to do. What we have been talking about is the incedences of subscribe bombings, and my feeling is that this tends to happen only if you upset a person. If a person wishes to use a denial of service attack on your mailbox, and honestly wants to be malicious about it, they will subscribe a list that they have control over, to the lists, and then distribute the job out to you. It has NOTHING to do with the typical reasons for recieving SPAM, which are that they want you to buy into their scheme. > You wanna be on a badly-managed, screwed-up, hosed mailing list? That's > fine. I have no problem with that -- really, I don't. But when said > mailing lists' screwed-up state impacts *me*, I have a huge problem > with it. And does that include allowing idiots to subscribe to it? If I don't like what is happening on a list, I don't go around jumping up and down swearing like a bat out of hell. I just quietly unsubscribe. If I can't do that quietly, I do so with a polite request explaining the situation on the list. So far I have not had a single problem with this aproach. What I HAVE had a problem with is some people who feel that they have some right to invade my mailbox without getting a responce from me. > And this is starting to happen -- to me, and to other third parties -- > far more often than before. Hence the need for list managers to either > know their stuff *or* get someone who does to handle the mechanics > of their list(s). This may be a good idea, but many of the lists that I am on would not exist if they had to pay for list management. Just as a rough idea of what I THINK that a mailing list manager is likely to be charging, I think that for me, I would charge $20/point to mannage a list. This point is the point that Lsoft uses to handle pricing for Listserv. And the table I have looks like this Subscribers Points Per List Per List ----------- -------- 0-150 1 151-300 2 301-500 3 501-1000 4 1001+ 5 > Unfortunately, various software vendors/web sites/etc. are exacerbating > the problem by propagating the myth that Anyone Can Run a Mailing List (TM)! > And with their point-and-drool interfaces that make Setting Up a Mailing > List a Snap (TM) they are responsible for some of the worst dreck out there. I would tend to agree with this point. I have encountered it in areas other than list mangement software. Quite a lot of the time I see badly produced printed material, because a person does not understand design principles. But in no way, would I wish to deny them the right to produce bad advertising, or for that matter a badly printed newspaper. Jason Rasku -- Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. Web pages of Interest: Madness: Fibre: Spirituality: ICQ 6375239 "I went to the hardware store and bought some used paint. It was in the shape of a house. I also bought some batteries, but they weren't included." -- Steven Wright From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 18:23:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05233; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA05224 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA05738; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04289; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:17:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:17:13 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame Reply-To: murr rhame To: Jeff Wasilko cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <19980430194152.N566@smoe.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Jeff Wasilko wrote: > Confirmation and hiding the lists are defaults when I create the > list. > > Site owners play an important role in preventing list abuse... I agree. Site mangers do play a key role in preventing list abuse. On my listproc, I do not allow open subscription setups. I hide the subscriber list by default. I do allow the listowner to choose an open subscriber list... They have to convince me why their subscriber list should be exposed. On very small, very private lists, the risk is minimal. At least with listproc, the subscriber list is only available to other subscribers when the subscription confirmation is turned on. I have seen many attempts to gather all subscriber addresses on all advertised lists at my site. As mentioned before, mailing list subscriber addresses are a premium find for spammers. Nearly every address on an active mailing list is a valid recipient. The anti-spam folks are making it more difficult to gather valid addresses from the Web and Usenet. Expect more address-harvesting attacks on mailing lists in the future. Speaking of general security issues, if your list is well known and unmoderated, see if non-subscribers can post. A Spamford need not gather your subscriber addresses if all they have to do is make a post to your list to distribute their spam. Unless you have a special reason to differ, unmoderated mailing lists should only accept posts from list subscribers. - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 18:52:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05600; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:40:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA05591 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iname.com (B56-61.DAS.McGill.CA [198.168.182.213]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with ESMTP id VAA00689 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:41:49 -0400 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: iname.com (B56-61.DAS.McGill.CA [198.168.182.213]) Message-ID: <354920E4.CCC2C60C@iname.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:09:56 -0400 From: "Pete St. Onge" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This thread has developed quite a bit of interesting, not to mention controversial, bandwidth. I think it's safe to say that there are folks on both sides of the question of whether most list managers are sufficiently knowledgeable about their tasks. That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective of their experience level)? Does anyone have a particularly good reference book (there was the mention of the O'Reilly book previously), FAQ's or URLs? Perhaps within the expertise of this list, we could put together a general overview of list operations, perhaps even with specific examples for the various list progs. Some portions could deal with general config issues, some could deal with bounces, others with trouble. Perhaps most importantly, how can a list admin spam-proof their lists? Just an idea. Cheers, Pete -- Pete St. Onge - McGill U. Limnology - Fun with Ropes & Buckets pete_st_onge@iname.com http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4322052 From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 19:08:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA06336; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bbfm.di.com (bbfm.di.com [209.64.54.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA06323 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from exchange.di.com(209.64.54.3) by bbfm.di.com for on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:09:47 -0700 Received: by exchange.di.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:08:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: Todd Day To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: No better than the rest... Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:08:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I have to say that I AM AWFULLY >DISAPPOINTED with adult conduct on the list-managers list. I think I will >be signing off this list. It is now crystally clear that I WON'T learn >anything here and will be forced to put up with all sorts of abusive >language. The dirty little secret of the list-admin "club" - all these wonderful people who work so hard for little or nothing to keep the discussion flowing are also the some of the most stubborn and argumentative people on the planet. Welcome to the club! -todd- another pig-headed list admin PS - Don't let it get to you - you *will* learn a lot from this list, in between the entertainment portions. And it is nice to occasionally have a shoulder to cry on. From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 19:22:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA06682; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA06668 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02032; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:21:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25]) by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA32732; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:21:04 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA26197; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:21:02 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805010221.VAA26197@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: Valtd1@concentric.net (Olusegun O. Ogidan) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:21:02 -2900 (CDT) Cc: lazlo@swcp.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Olusegun O. Ogidan" at Apr 30, 98 07:52:31 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have to say that I AM AWFULLY > DISAPPOINTED with adult conduct on the list-managers list. I think I will > be signing off this list. It is now crystally clear that I WON'T learn > anything here and will be forced to put up with all sorts of abusive > language. I would respectfully recommend you stick with it a while longer. Like most lists populated by strong willed people with significant expertise in the subject, we get very opinionated from time to time. Then it all blows over and we go back to being more focused and friendly and less volatile. In fact, I think this may be good training for nascent list managers, because almost no matter what it pertains to, YOUR list will have similar blowups, and one of the policies you need to decide NOW is when your particular threshhold has been reached. How you codify that in your list guidelines and what you do when things do get hot is a topic worthy of discussion here. I call it 'moderation by intimidation', the power of the list manager is quite great, if exercised properly. I've lost track of the number of people who have gotten WAY out of line on my lists and were cajoled or threatened (generally in private, but the occasional public rebuke can do wonders too) who then saw the wisdom of my ways and went on to be highly valued list members. In closing, I will disagree with Ron forever regarding his views in this particular area, which to me is little more than the end justifying the means, as long as the trains run on time, but I respect his knowledge and expertise in general, and the areas in which he has made a significant online contribution would be so long as to seem exaggerated. (And in fact earlier today I wrote him a private e-mail asking him a question arising from a separate ongoing thread.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 19:27:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA06407; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA06373 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09615; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980430212741.A9610@gsp.org> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:27:41 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: "Olusegun O. Ogidan" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <19980430171250.B2307@swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Olusegun O. Ogidan on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 07:52:31PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 07:52:31PM -0400, Olusegun O. Ogidan wrote: > I have only been on this list for a day or two. Already, I have read > thorns of ABUSIVE mail and wonder why this is indeed a list for > list-managers. [...] I find the normal flame level on this mailing list to be about 2 on a 10 scale. If you can't handle this, you may not be ready for the reality of the Internet. And by all means, avoid the alt.* newsgroups in Usenet! ;-) ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 19:34:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA06369; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA06362 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09648; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:06:23 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Jason Rasku on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 05:15:48PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 05:15:48PM -0700, Jason Rasku wrote: > I did not answer the question? Please tell me what the question > was again. If I recall correctly it was ``name three mailing lists that > provide good information, that are not run by cmopetent people,'' If I am > not mistaken, that is PRECICLY what I did. Okay, I did not name them per > se, but I DID list them in terms of groups. The question was phrased in the following fashion: >True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by >people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper >mailing-list set-up. Name three. I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet". > Are you then sugesting that I not run a mailing list? I don't > have a clue what you are talking about, If you do not know what those things are, no, you should not be running a mailing list, because you lack the technical competency to do an adequate job of it. > Does a person need to pass a competency exam in order to have > achieved competency, I don't know of any such exam, nor would I advocate that route if I did: "certification exams" are pretty much worthless. This is why I did not suggest exams as a means of determining competency. > or is it good enough that their list runs well? It is *not* good enough. Their list must not only run well, in and of itself, but it must also be a good neighbor to everyone else on the Internet. That means (among many, many other things) that it must not easily lend itself to mailbombing attacks on innocent third parties. > > You wanna be on a badly-managed, screwed-up, hosed mailing list? That's > > fine. I have no problem with that -- really, I don't. But when said > > mailing lists' screwed-up state impacts *me*, I have a huge problem > > with it. > > And does that include allowing idiots to subscribe to it? Sure, if that's the way *you* or *I* or *someone* wants to run their list. I think it's a really stupid idea, but as long as it doesn't impact me, hey, go for it. > > And this is starting to happen -- to me, and to other third parties -- > > far more often than before. Hence the need for list managers to either > > know their stuff *or* get someone who does to handle the mechanics > > of their list(s). > > This may be a good idea, but many of the lists that I am on would > not exist if they had to pay for list management. I did not suggest paying for it. I suggested getting someone to handle the mechanics of the list and left it open as to how that might be done. Since most of the Internet has been built with volunteer labor, and there seems to be an increasing pool of it available, I don't think it would be *that much* of a problem to find someone to help out. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 21:07:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08293; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA08286 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 18049 invoked by uid 24); 1 May 1998 04:05:45 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980430204123.00aade40@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:41:23 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Bounce Handler In-Reply-To: <199804211126.UAA22601@yebisu.digital-magic.co.jp> References: <199804171416.KAA10021@volitans.MorningStar.Com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 08:22 PM 4/21/98 +0900, Takashi Tokunaga wrote: >Hello all list managers, > >I'd like to ask for help handling bounced mails with various MTA. > >I'm maintain mail server (Qmail 1.01 + FreeBSD 2.2.5) which sends about >10,000 mail messages per day upon request. (Not spam, only by request : ) For those who use qmail and majordomo, I've got a script which a VERP-ish bounce message from off-site (and on-site) can be fed through, it's at http://hyperreal.org/~brian/listdel When such a message is passed through, it sends an unsubscribe command to the appropriate address, using the same "~/.majordomo" file that the Majordomo "approve" command uses. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org From list-managers-owner Thu Apr 30 21:37:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA08578; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA08571 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.104.58.227] (stk-pw227.gotnet.net [207.104.58.227]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA04993; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:34:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199805010434.AAA04993@iwebb.com> Subject: To: Olusegun Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 21:36:30 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: "Olusegun O. Ogidan" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk NO, You can't leave me alone!!! :O) C'mon, stick it out - a little while longer, we (newbie) gals gotta stick together!!! :O) If you do decide to go, keep in touch and tell me if you find that one that Stephanie was talking about that's for us newbies - myabe I'll join ya there! Hate to see you go, but I understand if you do! Who knows if we will ever learn what we're here to learn! Best Wishes and God Bless You! TTFN, Jenifer (Let me know what you decide to do!)