From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 01:12:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA11524; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA11516 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15129 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 00:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA31881 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 01:02:54 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:17:13 -0400. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 01:02:53 -0700 Message-ID: <31836.894009773@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , murr rhame wrote: >Speaking of general security issues, if your list is well known and >unmoderated, see if non-subscribers can post. A Spamford need not >gather your subscriber addresses if all they have to do is make a post >to your list to distribute their spam. Unless you have a special >reason to differ, unmoderated mailing lists should only accept posts >from list subscribers. Yes. definitely. P.S. Actually, Spamford Wallace never got into spamming mailing lists directly. There was however one real hardcore thief/jerk named ``Krazy Kevin'' who used to exclusively spam mailing lists and nothing else. He was always selling discount magazine subscriptions. Authorities in New York State finally caught up to him and successfully prosecuted him for fraud and I think he even ended up doing some jail time. It seems that people who sent him money for magazine subscriptions often only received one or two issues of their requested magazines and then the subscriptions mysteriously stopped coming. Another good argument for never buying _anything_ from a spammer. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 03:52:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA16888; Fri, 1 May 1998 03:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA16874 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 03:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA14179; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980501063347.A14170@gsp.org> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 06:33:47 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Interesting piece of mail this morning (forwarded) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Y'know, it's amazing what people will resort to in order to avoid reasoned argument when their preconceived notions are threatened. I suppose this insulting and ostrich-like response is Jason's way of answering the issues that Ron (and now I, and others) have raised. I shouldn't be surprised: on various mailing lists, I'm starting to see more and more of this from newbies, who simply can't handle the reality that the Internet is a complex place, and effectively offering services -- whether they be mailing lists, web sites, or anything else -- is NOT as easy as they hypsters would like us all to believe. It *does* require a large body of technical knowledge, and those who think there's an easy way around that are not only doomed to failure, they are also highly likely to inflict collateral damage on the very community they are trying to serve, as well as the rest of us. (Maybe someday it'll be simpler. Now is emphatically not that someday.) It was one thing to plead ignorance 15 years ago, when you could fit all the books on Unix and the Arpanet in your briefcase and have room left over for lunch. But to do so today is fatuous: there are not only books, but web sites and FAQs and how-to guides and such an incredible wealth of information that only those who deliberately avoid educating themselves can manage not to learn something. And refusing to listen to people with nearly two decades of online experience -- just because what they're saying makes you uncomfortable -- is a pretty good way to do that. ---Rsk ----- Forwarded message from Jason Rasku ----- > > From: Jason Rasku > Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:13:46 -0700 (PDT) > To: Rich Kulawiec > Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing > > plonk... > > -- > Jason Rasku, Box 270, Rossland, B.C., V0G 1Y0, (250) 362-5701, > LinuxBox: (250) 362-9668. [Excessive signature trimmed] ----- End forwarded message ----- From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:07:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19031; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA18986 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA03082; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA05308; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:00:14 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Rich Kulawiec cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > Name three. > > I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists > explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s > level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why > they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet". An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are completely subjective. You are the only one on the planet who could provide answers which you find satisfactory. It's tough to be tried by law-maker, judge and jury rolled into one. If you are a listowner who uses a well run server, you need not be an email wizard. I usually send a one page description of setup options to a new owner. I also send a one page listowner command quick-ref with examples all of the owner commands they are likely to use. I arrange a phone call in which I check their general skills and discuss the joys and pitfalls of running a list. I setup the list in a secure manner and send them on their way. Even a Mac user who has never seen a command line can be up to speed in short order. After a brief period of hand-holding, they are on their own. The person who "runs the list" need not be an email genius to responsibly run a successful mailing list. A good site manger is available to handle the tough technical questions. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:37:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19419; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from siberia.demon.co.uk (siberia.demon.co.uk [158.152.123.170]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA19412 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:22:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199805011229.claire.98050048@siberia.demon.co.uk> From: claire@siberia.demon.co.uk (Claire McNab) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:29:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Reply-to: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk References: Your message of Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:29:49 +0100. <199804292029.claire.98047419@siberia.demon.co.uk> In-reply-to: <7954.893888735@monkeys.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) via PM-Demon V4.04 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 29 Apr 98 at 15:25, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> The list participants (and their opinions) tend to have an effect > >> upon the behavior of the list admin. > > > >Ron, do you really reckon that the best way to encourage them to > >have an effect is to pour out 4-letter words, as you claim to do? > > Yup. Ron, I guess that reply says a lot. I've met a few other men with that sort of attitude (sadly, it's neatly always _men_). And for some reason, they always seem to find people "picking on them". I wonder why it is that the only person on this list who seems to get maliciously subbed to other lists is you? > The world existed for untold millenia _before_ you and your mailing > list came along, and it will probably manage to survive somehow > even after your list disappears (or morphs into a radio call-in > show). Ron, before that list existed, a lot of ppl in the area that uses this list used to commit suicide. They still do. But in each of the three cases where ppl came close to the edge when they were on the list, someone was able to step in promptly: in one case we got someone to the person when her wrists were already cut. Sure, the world would go on. But the graveyards would a wee bit fuller. I happen to regard that as a bad thing. > Even if you really do not want your list to disappear, if _you_ > can't ad-minister it properly (and in a non abusive way) then > please consider stepping aside and letting someone more > well-clued have a whack at it. I don't like the situation of no confirmation: I know it's open to abuse, and I want to close it. So does the site admin. But the site admin is constrained in several ways as to which software she can run, and the available software does not include sub confirmation. So far, we have had *one* instance of someone involuntarily subbed, dealt with promptly (we have 24-hour-a-day list admins). That loophole *will* be closed: it just can't be done instantly, much as I want it to be. And on other lists I run, where I have choice of software, sub confirmation is top of the list of *required* features for the MLM software. > (This isn't directed at you in particular. My comments here are meant to > apply equally to _all_ list admins.) > > >I was in that situation myself: I > >didn't like it, but no amount of abuse from anyone would change the > >situation. > > Translation: I knew I was running a badly configured and > potentially abusive mailing list, Wrong. Not a "potentially abusive list" -- rather, one that has a loophole which leaves it open to abuse by others. There's an important difference: this list itself is *not* potentially abusive. > but to hell with everbody else on > the planet. Me and my needs come first. Nope. The people for whom we provide the support facility come first. If a malicious third party exploits a loophole before we succeed in closing it, all I ask is that the victim of that abuse doesn't create more victims. It's a general principle that works well elsewhere in life -- take a peep in any court, and you'll see the law applying it every day of the week. > Have you ever considered taking up spamming? You already have the > ethical mindset for it. Now all you need is some spamware and a > target address list or two. You're very confused, aren't you Ron? You can't distinguish between someone who commits an offence and someone who has not taken every conceivable step to stop others offending. We agree entirely about the importance of subscription confirmation: the difference is in how we respond to abuse when it occurs. But frankly, I've had enough. There was a time when this list included a lot of coherent discussion, but increasingly the bandwidth seems to be taken up with lots of folks trying in vain to explain good manners to someone who doesn't seem to get the basic message that civility is a two-way street, that problems ain't best resolved by escalating them to hurt others, and that two wrongs don't make a right. Rather than hunt through the chaff for the gems that are still in there somewhere, I'm going to save my bandwidth and diskspace, and unsub for a while. Best wishes, Claire -- Claire McNab -- Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 06:52:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA19861; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA19854 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00987; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:49:16 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400, murr rhame wrote: > On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > > Name three. > > > > I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists > > explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s > > level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why > > they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet". > > An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are > completely subjective. [...] They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer, I suggest you ask him. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 08:52:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA22516; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22508 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 08:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id JAA25015; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <354920E4.CCC2C60C@iname.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <354920E4.CCC2C60C@iname.com>; from Pete St. Onge on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400, Pete St. Onge wrote: > That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective > of their experience level)? 1) The Documentation. 2) The FAQ. Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the people who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously never looked at (or even for) either one. > Perhaps within the expertise of this list, we could put together a > general overview of list operations, perhaps even with specific examples for > the various list progs. If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs, O'Reilly has a book on list administration out. I don't really see why all the effort put into existing materials needs to be duplicated, but if you're bound and determined, by all means, go for it. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:07:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA22780; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA22763 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02545; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980501120438.A2511@gsp.org> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:04:38 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <19980430220623.B9610@gsp.org> <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>; from Rich Kulawiec on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:49:16AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A correction to my own note: On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:49:16AM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on > what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I > was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer, > I suggest you ask him. Actually, they belong to Norbert Bollow , who made the statement in question. Ron merely asked him to name three which satisfied the criteria...which neither he nor anyone else has, yet. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:22:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23342; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23335 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA29755 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25]) by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10177 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:42 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08557 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:41 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805011623.LAA08557@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:23:41 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs, > O'Reilly has a book on list administration out. I don't really see why all > the effort put into existing materials needs to be duplicated, but if you're > bound and determined, by all means, go for it. Not all mailing list software packages have excellent documentation or FAQ's, and a lot of the information it takes to run a list isn't directly related to the list software itself, but to other aspects of e-mail. The first I'd heard of this particular book from O'Reilly was on this list earlier this week. That's unusual because I generally receive press releases from them, and have gotten review copies of several of their Unix-related books. I'm one of those who would buy most O'Reilly books sight unseen, (I own about 40 of them), though I a bit skeptical of the ability to distill the knowledge, wisdom, and patience it takes to be a successful list manager into ANY book. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 09:54:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23962; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23955 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA06997 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13001 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:54:17 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 09:53:58 -0600. <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:54:17 -0700 Message-ID: <12999.894041657@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com>, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 09:09:56PM -0400, Pete St. Onge wrote: > >> That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective >> of their experience level)? > >1) The Documentation. >2) The FAQ. Since we are on the subject, allow _me_ to ask ``Where _is_ the FAQ exactly?'' I've been loking for it myself and (as you might imagine) I'd like to per- haps make a contribution or two to it on the topic of security. >Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the people >who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously never looked at >(or even for) either one. Well, even _I_ wouldn't go that far. A lot of people, myself included, are not even sure precisely where the FAQ is. It's hard to benefit from a resources if you don't know weher it is. >> Perhaps within the expertise of this list, we could put together a >> general overview of list operations, perhaps even with specific examples for >> the various list progs. > >If the existing FAQs and documentation aren't sufficient to your needs, >O'Reilly has a book on list administration out... Now _that_ should be a very useful bit of information for the participants here! (I for one didn't know anything about this new book until you men- tioned it.) I just popped over to O'Reilly's web site and found the page on it. Here's the URL for the benefit of anyone else who might be interested: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/mailing/ -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:22:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24563; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24556 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08737 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA13827 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:23:41 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 09:49:16 -0400. <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:23:40 -0700 Message-ID: <13825.894043420@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <19980501094916.A982@gsp.org>, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:00:14AM -0400, murr rhame wrote: >> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >> >> > Name three. >> > >> > I would expect that any such answer would (a) name the mailing lists >> > explicitly and (b) explain who they are run by and that person(s)'s >> > level of knowledge and (c) provide adequate justification for why >> > they should be considered "the most valuable lists on the internet". >> >> An essay exam? [plonk] Two out of three of your criteria are >> completely subjective. [...] > >They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on >what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I >was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer, >I suggest you ask him. I will accept without proof that there are indeed many mailing lists on the net that large groups of people find to be very useful and valuable resources _and_ which are badly administered by people who don't know what they are doing. In such cases, the ``value'' of the list is highly dependent upon who you ask. The subscribers may steadfastly assert that the thing is very valuable, whereas if you ask me, _I_ may say that (overall) the thing is mostly just a net-menace which ought to be quietly done away with. (Other people who have been subscription bombed... e.g. ... may perhaps also take a position similar to mine.) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:37:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24852; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24838 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09524 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14331 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:36:54 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: FYI - List security and that new O'Reilly book X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:36:54 -0700 Message-ID: <14329.894044214@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was just browsing the online index for that new O'Reilly book about mailing list administration, and I see that the author has several single- page references on `security' listed in the index, broken down by specific type of list admin package (e.g. Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, Smartlist). The author also seems to have a four page section on ``abuse of mailing lists''. Having not seen the book itself, I can only assume that he covers the most important three topics in this area, i.e.: o risks of allowing non-subscribers to post o risks of allowing the subscriber address list to be harvested o risks of accepting new subscriptions without confirmation -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 10:42:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25007; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:30:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24998 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id LAA07810; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:32:21 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980501113220.A6236@swcp.com> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:32:20 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <19980501095358.A23793@swcp.com> <12999.894041657@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <12999.894041657@monkeys.com>; from Ronald F. Guilmette on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:54:17AM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:54:17AM -0700, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: >>> That said, what resources are there for list admins (irrespective of >>> their experience level)? >> >> 1) The Documentation. >> 2) The FAQ. > > Since we are on the subject, allow _me_ to ask ``Where _is_ the FAQ > exactly?'' The majordomo FAQ is at http://www.greatcircle.com/majordomo/FAQ.html. Users of other list admin software should check the software's documentation to find out whether there's a FAQ for their package, and if so, where it lives. >> Maybe this suggestion sounds facetious and snotty, but a number of the >> people who are squealing loudest in this thread have very obviously >> never looked at (or even for) either one. > > Well, even _I_ wouldn't go that far. A lot of people, myself included, > are not even sure precisely where the FAQ is. I find that when looking for the majordomo FAQ, going to a search engine and looking for the words "majordomo FAQ" can be surprisingly helpful. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:08:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25830; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25823 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05273; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:04:22 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:04:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011804.LAA05273@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005239; Fri May 1 11:04:19 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Claire@siberia.demon.co.uk, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:16:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25873; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25865 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06086; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005977; Fri May 1 11:05:57 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: murr rhame , Rich Kulawiec From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:21:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25692; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25685 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03722; Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:39 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:00:39 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011800.LAA03722@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003600; Fri May 1 11:00:29 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:22:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25554; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25546 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01786; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:18 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011756.KAA01786@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001754; Fri May 1 10:56:13 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Lazlo Nibble , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address of your list, thank you From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:29:20 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25604; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25597 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03132; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:25 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:59:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011759.KAA03132@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd003094; Fri May 1 10:59:19 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: Summary: Prevalence of mailing list bombing (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 11:29:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA25595; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25588 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02495; Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:57:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199805011757.KAA02495@smtp02.primenet.com> Received: from ip-23-176.phx.primenet.com(206.165.23.176), claiming to be "primenet.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd002444; Fri May 1 10:57:46 1998 X-Sender: bobg@pop.primenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) Subject: Re: FYI - List security and that new O'Reilly book Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 14:07:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29873; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA29865 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id MAA28092 for list-managers; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805011908.MAA28092@honor.greatcircle.com> From: mcb@greatcircle.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:08:38 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers Subject: Spew from bobg@primenet.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Robert L. Guertin (bobg@primenet.com) wrote: > > Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. This bozo is history, his address has been barred from further posting, and "take my address off" has been added to the greatcircle.com list admin filters. Sheesh. (We had "take me off" but I guess that wasn't good enough.) -- Michael C. Berch Postmaster and List Manager, Great Circle Associates mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 14:22:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA29888; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA29878 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA28690 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17794 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA18039 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 12:52:48 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 01 May 1998 11:06:07 -0700. <199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:52:48 -0700 Message-ID: <18037.894052368@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199805011806.LAA06086@smtp02.primenet.com>, bobg@primenet.com (Robert L. Guertin) wrote: >Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is? -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 15:07:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA02142; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02133 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15969 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25]) by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13731 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:20 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA13254 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:18 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805012207.RAA13254@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:07:18 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Ronald F. Guilmette" wrote > >Please quit spamming me.... > > Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is? Gee, Ron, I would have though you, OF ALL PEOPLE, would recognize this particular strategy: annoy everyone on the list to get your particular grievance addressed. Maybe he didn't use enough 4 letter words? :-) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 15:22:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA02635; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02628 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:20:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id PAA07706; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <354A4B3F.D1B8F34E@postmodern.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:23:36 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Managers Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <199805012207.RAA13254@celery.tssi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mike Nolan wrote: > > "Ronald F. Guilmette" wrote > > > >Please quit spamming me.... > > > > Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is? > > Gee, Ron, I would have though you, OF ALL PEOPLE, would recognize this > particular strategy: annoy everyone on the list to get your particular > grievance addressed. Maybe he didn't use enough 4 letter words? :-) I should point out as an aside that his "grievance", if any, is that he was too inept to figure out how to unsubscribe. All lists at greatcircle.com, of course, require subscription confirmation, so he didn't wander in by accident or someone else's malice. -- Michael C. Berch list-managers list manager mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:35:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06291; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06281 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27024 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:19:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jms@localhost) by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA12857 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > there _are_ many case in everyday life where you want to have someone > doing the job who really knows what the hell they are doing. And this is not one of them. You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers. You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list. -Joe From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:37:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05783; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05772 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iwebb.com (iwebb.com [208.234.1.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA27366 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.104.58.119] (stk-pw119.gotnet.net [207.104.58.119]) by iwebb.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA24149 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:04:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199804290504.BAA24149@iwebb.com> Subject: Thanks everyone... Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 22:06:39 -0700 x-sender: jenifer@DivineWebDesign.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you for such a nice response. I didn't realize that I had to be so aggressive to get such a warm welcome! :O) If I had known I would have done it a long time ago! (Just kidding!) :O) Seriously though, I realize it is unrealistic to expect everyone to get along, but it would be nice if the more personal stuff could be sent privately! Thanks again for the support! I figured I would have to unscribe after my post! Jenifer From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:38:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05708; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05700 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA04350 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11988 invoked by uid 666); 28 Apr 1998 18:05:20 -0000 Date: 28 Apr 1998 18:05:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19980428180520.11986.qmail@cr.yp.to> From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bounce Handler (fwd) References: <199804281406.JAA04064@celery.tssi.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mike Nolan writes: > IMHO there are 'good' bounces, and 'bad' bounces, > and some intelligence or thought as to what to do with them is A Good Thing, See http://pobox.com/~djb/docs/somebounces.html for a study of the bounces on one mailing list. I've never seen ezmlm eliminate an address that I would have kept. Human list managers tend to do much worse than ezmlm: (1) they kick subscribers off the list without any warning; (2) even when they provide warnings, they don't wait long enough for configuration problems to be fixed. ezmlm takes a while to eliminate a bad address, occasionally as long as a month, but it can afford to be patient. ---Dan Smaller, faster, safer than inetd+tcpd. http://pobox.com/~djb/ucspi-tcp.html From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:40:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06369; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06357 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA01859 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id QAA02436; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:52:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980430165230.A2307@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:52:30 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz>; from Olwen Williams on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 07:26:01AM +1200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 07:26:01AM +1200, Olwen Williams wrote: > Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it > happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? Could he > have antagonised people so that they do this to him. * ding * -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:42:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05921; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05911 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA19481 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id LAA06821; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:20:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804291620.LAA06821@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL Problems Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:20:36 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4/27/98 6:39 AM, Jack Teems wrote... >I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send >email >from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail >list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the >javascript in my site? This is a web issue, not a mailing list issue. You are using the format: mailto:address@host?body=body text This is not supported by many web browsers, including AOL's. I would suggest you avoid using features that are only limited to a small subset of users. I even don't recommend using ?subject, which is at least more widely supported than ?body. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:45:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05972; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05962 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (h153-64-251-18.NCR.COM [153.64.251.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA07798 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jabberwocky (jabberwocky.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM [153.64.69.123]) by ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09372 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804300237.TAA09372@ncr-sd.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM> X-Sender: bhoule@www.sandiegoca.ncr.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:35:30 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bill Houle Subject: Re: MajorDomo Header/Footer insertion Web interface script. In-Reply-To: <19980429135718.A12795@swcp.com> References: <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> <0ES600418OT000@PM02SM.PMM.MCI.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:57 PM 4/29/98 -0600, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:33:16AM -0700, Chris Newman wrote: > >> We are in the process of installing MajorDomo and MajorCool. The only utility >> which seems to be missing is a script which creates a Web page GUI for the >> automatic insertion of headers and footers in outgoing messages. > >Majordomo controls message headers and footers in the listname.config file. >Not sure where a web script would come in on the process. Majordomo headers & footers (in the list.config) can be maintained via MajorCool. However, I believe Chris is asking about the use of MajorCool (or whatever) to actually originate mail. Majordomo/MajorCool was never intended to be a mail agent. Such a product is available though: www.hotmail.com :). --bill From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:46:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06016; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05998 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gateway.simutronics.com (gateway.simutronics.com [198.83.204.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA09746 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from af.simutronics.com (af.simutronics.com [198.83.204.55]) by gateway.simutronics.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA02132 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:31:36 -0500 From: "Andy Finkenstadt" To: Subject: RE: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:33:02 -0500 Message-ID: <000101bd73f1$11979020$37cc53c6@af.simutronics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <6571.893886140@monkeys.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well geez, I'm sorry I even asked the question. Many thanks to Chuq and others who commented on what the true solutions were, which I had already suspected. The bottom line is, until mailing list software writers and mailing list administrators configure their lists to always require confirmation from the desired recipient, there's no practical way for an innocent victim to prevent their personal or business e-mail address from being bombed with a denial of service attack of this nature. I wrote a procmail recipe that alleviates nearly all of the problem mail by dropping into another folder any mail that does not directly address an address using one of our domains. Using formail, I can re-process an attacked mailbox if the problem recurs in the future. This solution covers most of the needs we had without having to change the world, or write sophisticated "detect that a mailbox is being bombed in real-time without human intervention" software. I'd rather write dwim() instead, as it would be much easier. -Andy From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:49:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05814; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05786 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA04956 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA02721; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA15026; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0700 To: Jack Teems cc: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: AOL Problems In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:39:53 -0600. <35446E89.8DD3AE63@rapidnet.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0700 Message-ID: <15024.893833493@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <35446E89.8DD3AE63@rapidnet.com>, you wrote: >I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send ema >il >from my mail list at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail >list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the >javascript in my site? Looks to me like bounce.to just forwards over to Angelfire. AOL may be blocking at traffic to/from Angelfire because that place has been referenced frequently in a LOT of E-mail spam. (I track this sort of stuff so I know.) AOL has become very proactive in not talking to sites that seem to be used a lot by spammers. You may want to discuss that with the people at Angelfire and maybe move your website to some less outwardly spam-friendly provider. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:51:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05959; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05949 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02204 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23475; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980429172609.A23470@wombat> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:26:09 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners References: <13382.893829502@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:20:47AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:20:47AM -0400, murr rhame wrote: > As long as we are asking pertinent questions, what is the purpose of > yet another list managers mailing list? I am subscribed to two > general purpose listowners lists already and I know of several more. I have noticed this phenomena recurring with increasing frequency over the last year or so: there are now at least half a dozen "web manager" mailing lists, a handful of "list manager" mailng lists, and I"m sure there are other redundant ones as well. This serves no one: it simply fragments the community while compelling those who want (or *need*) to be apprised of developments to subscribe to multiple lists instead of just one -- and then to deal with duplicate traffic and overlapping discussions among them. Yet the proponents of new lists seem blissfully unaware of this (which raises the question "If you can't find the existing list-manager's mailing list, do you in fact have enough clues to start another one?"). They tend to react with hostility to the suggestion that someone else Got There First and that they should cheerfully support their efforts rather than striking out on their own. Grumpily, ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:52:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA05946; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA05928 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA28541 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id NAA27568; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804292049.NAA27568@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: jteems@rapidnet.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <35447150.1EAB6D2@rapidnet.com> (message from Jack Teems on Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:51:44 -0600) Subject: AOL and web links Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:51:44 -0600 From: Jack Teems I repeatedly have comments from AOL customers that they are unable to send email from the link on my web page at http://bounce.to/jteems in order to subscribe to my mail list. Is this just a peculiar problem with AOL because it won't handle the javascript in my site? Yes, I have the same problem with AOL browsers (just PC browsers apparently, not the Mac ones). The link you have is: mailto:majordomo@majordomo.net?body=subscribe neatnettricks I have links in the form of: logit.cgi?http://www.nontoxic.com/ (note this is a problem to keep track of clickthroughs for an ads page) AOL browsers seem to barf at the ? I have been trying to figure out why and if it's fixable. Some people on my ISP's user's groups think it has to do with the way the html headers are returned. I didn't write my problem so I really haven't a clue what this means. Basically...AOL browsers suck and people should download different ones :-). Or you could provide an alternate link for AOL browser users...that leads to standard directions. I used to use a subject header add on for mail to links to sub to my list, but stopped when I found out that lynx couldn't handle them (this was several years ago...they might have improved). Actually, I want to use a form to do subs from the web, as much as I like the simplicity of your solution. So many people don't know how to set the return address in their browser...about 10% (okay, 5%) of my users have junk From: lines (and I don't mean nospam stuff, I mean "user" for a username or things like "cnorman@best.com@best.com"). Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:54:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06348; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06313 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.n.ml.org (narnia.mhv.net [199.0.0.118]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA00660 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djr@localhost by mail.n.ml.org (Sendmail 8.9.0.Beta5) via SMTP (SAA16493) on Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:04:58 -0400 (199804302204) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:04:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Reed To: Olwen Williams cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <3548D049.FA32667B@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 May 1998, Olwen Williams wrote: ) Incidentally I've never been forge subscribe to a mailing list. If it ) happens to Ron all the time does that say samething about him? Could he ) have antagonised people so that they do this to him. If I felt that your post was extremely antagonistic to me, does that make you bad? Does that justify my subscribing you to 500 mailing lists that talk about bestiality and toe-nail clipping? I absolutely *hate* it when someone says "well, since X bad thing happens to you, you must be bad." A friend of mine, who ran a Linux machine over his dialup connection (he was going to get it co-located somewhere in a month or something, and was running it over his modem until that time), would get smurfed several times a week. Probably not because of his own actions, but instead those of his users. At one point, his ISP told him that if *he got smurfed one more time* that they would cancel his account because, *obviously*, if you do something that "warrants" being smurfed, then you are a Bad Person and that ISP didn't want to have anything to do with you. That's faulty logic, and that's the kind of logic you're applying here. Subscribe bombing is bad, and doesn't necessarily say anything whatsoever about the character, integrity, nor the "Bad"ness of the victim. Maybe he antagonized people, but maybe some psychopath just likes targetting his address? Maybe he pissed the wrong person off at one point, or maybe someone on a mailing list he was on got really pissed off about something and decided to attack that mailing list's subscribers? I've never been subscribe bombed in my life either, but at one point the NANOG mailing list was (in a low-level sorta way). NANOG = North American Network Operators Group, aka the people who run the Internet in the US. I doubt highly that it, as an entity, offended anyone (unless they're from the former Yugoslavia and were offended by the fact that there was no Slavic Nations Network Operators Guild, or something). Also, a couple of the subscriptions actually went through, because the MLM software they were using didn't support authentication cookies , but that's another thread... -- Daniel Reed (ask me for my PGP key) Unix - it's a nice place to live, but you wouldn't want to visit there. From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:55:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06238; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06216 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA15344 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leibniz.math.ethz.ch (bollow@leibniz [129.132.146.163]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id LAA08429; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by leibniz.math.ethz.ch (8.6.12/D-MATH-client) id LAA00900; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:03 +0200 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:03:03 +0200 Message-Id: <199804300903.LAA00900@leibniz.math.ethz.ch> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <32473.893872726@monkeys.com> (rfg@monkeys.com) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > However when several of the list participatants (with whom the admin has a > longstanding and pre-existing relationship) are encouraged to write to the > list admin, asking him/her why he/she is such a bozo to have allowed that > Guilmette crank to have gotten zubscribed against his will, _then_ results > are produced and changes in configuration ensue. To everyone: Please, everyone take in consideration that Ron was mailbombed three times by means of mass mailing-list forge-zubscribes (and this is the most nasty kind of mailbombing by far) *because* he fights a good battle against spam, from which all responsible netizens are profiting. To Ronald F. Guilmette: Ron, Surely I understand your anger. But I still think you're overreacting a bit. I think that instead of posting four-letter words, you should make a post in polite yet very clear language which says essentially the same things, and in addition recommends a consultant who is willing to assist clueless list-admins with setting up their lists properly, for a fee of course. > I often wonder that exact thing. I especially wonder about it > each time some lout of a list admin allows me to be > forge-zubscribed to a non-confirming mailing list he/she is > running. Hmm... is there a standards-track RFC yet which specifies that all public mailing lists MUST use a zubscription procedure which is strictly *opt-in* and properly secured against forge-zubscribes? > The squeaky wheel gets the grease. My point exactly... you'll be better off being a squeaky wheel than by being a wheel which shouts insults. > It takes _both_ a net-hooligan _and_ an incompentent/careless list admin > to create one of these forged zubscriptions. Remove either one from the > equation and these things no longer happen. True... but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper mailing-list set-up. These people are competent in other areas and they deserve our respect for their work in areas where they're competent. I've been on the net long enough to know better than to be surprised or angered by the occasional flame war, but I am still convinced not only that there is a better way but also that is plain wrong to classify anyone as "incompetent". (Exception: If you're the boss or employer of that person, then you have the right to judge.) BTW, I'm sure it would be possible to design an e-mail filter that will automatically post a properly-worded message to any e-mail list to which you get forge-zubscribed. May blessings from the eternal God surprise and overtake you! Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 18:57:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA06278; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id SAA06268 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.net-shopper.co.uk (mail.net-shopper.co.uk [194.205.1.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA26132 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail. (mail. [194.205.1.152]) by mail.net-shopper.co.uk (NTMail 4.00.0008/*3GTFQ.KS:WN{) with ESMTP id ccbfhaaa for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:48:48 +0100 Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) id QQenjn11202; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25911; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25904 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA06270; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA09369; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700 To: Marty Hoag Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: NEW: List-digest - for list owners In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:04 -0500. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: <9367.893961524@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wro te: > I don't know who you intended this for but my position is that spamming >should be illegal. Removing key information such as who made a post to a >public archive is counterproductive and only affects historical data. If >a user absolutely does not want to have their address used then they >should not send out any e-mail to anyone else... > > Marty NEW-LIST Owner/Editor I never suggested that you ``remove key information''. I merely suggested that you should make the processes of ``strip mining'' your web site for large numbers of E-mail addresses unworkable for spammers. You can do this very easily by implementing an exponential delay/backoff for sequential fetches of web pages belonging to your site in cases where those sequential fetches are coming from a single IP address over a short period of time. Quite simply, the first request for a page which might carry a ``minable'' E-mail address would come up immediately, but if a second request for a second such page came to your web server (from the same IP address) within (say) 10 seconds, then you would delay sending the page to the requestor for 1 second. If the next following request from that same IP address also followed within 10 seconds, then you would delay sending back the next page for 2 seconds, and then 4, and then 8, etc. This is a simple way to make ``strip mining'' of address from your web archives of mailing lists unworkable in practice for the person trying to do the minimg. Please implement it. Other similar archiving services already have done so. I would be more than happy to provide any and all technical assistance you may need in order to implement this simple delay scheme at no cost to you. P.S. The exponential backoff/delay scheme also has the additional advantage of conserving your available CPU cycles and making them quickly available to people who only want to view one or a few pages at your site. People who just drop by for a quick peek at a page or two will get maximal re- sponsiveness from your web site, while others who engage in long sessions consisting of a lot of closely-spaced page requests will not impact the apparent speed and performance of your web service as viewed by other ``brief'' users. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 21:22:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA12516; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12509 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon [207.180.0.40]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA28984 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost) by klingon.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28132 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:36:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:36:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Linda B. Merims" X-Sender: lbm@klingon To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: AOL Problems Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its web browser does not support JavaScript. At All. Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From list-managers-owner Fri May 1 22:07:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA13106; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bajor.ici.net (bajor.ici.net [207.180.0.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA13099 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from klingon.ici.net (lbm@klingon [207.180.0.40]) by bajor.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29534; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (lbm@localhost) by klingon.ici.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA28235; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:17:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: klingon.ici.net: lbm owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:17:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Linda B. Merims" X-Sender: lbm@klingon To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 May 1998, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > On Fri, 1 May 1998, Linda B. Merims wrote: > > As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version > > of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its > > web browser does not support JavaScript. At All. > > ...However, you can use your AOL connection as a Winsock connection and > run ANY version of IE or Netscape over it. > Since the project I am working on is software to support Internet commerce where the product's customer wants to support the widest possible base of potential buyers, the fact that some AOL people will be clever enough to figure this out doesn't help a great deal. The product's customers still view themselves, rightly so, as disenfranchising more than 10,000,000 AOL subscribers as potential buyers if they use any product that generates JavaScript. We still have to code a version of the product that will produce HTML only--no JavaScript. Internet Explorer 3.0.2 is almost as brain dead vis-a-vis JavaScript. None of which has anything to do with list management. Linda B. Merims lbm@ici.net Massachusetts, USA From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 02:07:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA17246; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA17239; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from diffreithiant.demon.co.uk ([193.237.35.207]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1009326; 2 May 98 8:50 GMT From: Darren Wyn Rees To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: List statistics, time & motions etc Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:49:25 GMT Message-ID: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Before re-inventing the wheel, or going down a more inefficient path than needs be, I'm led to -probe- this question here ... How on earth do *you* experienced list gurus go about collecting/preparing /collating your list statistics for general 'management' decisions? Perhaps that assumes that you all collect such figures, I don't know, I honestly haven't had to think about this beyond today... Where I find myself picking up a calculator and doing a few simple sums on a Wordprocessor. And realising, I'd really really love to aim for more in-depth statistics... how many unique posts, how much mail has zipped/trundled thru this system, how many subscribers, how many lurkers, movement on last month (hey, it's the 2nd of May today :), queries answered and, perhaps, statistical analysis of how people join/leave, time devoted to answering queries... I'm sure you get the picture : I want some sort of 'list management balance sheet'. Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's opened my eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures that say that one list has three times as much posting activity compared to a list with twice as many subscribers ... and I'm working out 'why is that'. That said, I'd still much like *your* opinion on the matter. Any of your feedback, comments on this quite general question of list-management, is most gratefully appreciated. (I'm off to dig up my old account books out as I'm sure they'll help give me some broad tips on this type of resource 'allocation' activity). I've CCed this message to majordomo-users, (although I use Mj, yes I'm aware this is not a majordomo-specific question). Sincerely, -- Darren Wyn Rees Email merlin@merlin.netlink.co.uk From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 03:22:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA20607; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:19:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA20600 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:19:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA17627; Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA00022; Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 06:21:38 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Daniel Reed cc: Olwen Williams , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Daniel Reed wrote: > I absolutely *hate* it when someone says "well, since X bad thing > happens to you, you must be bad." ... Well said. Mob justice is rarely poetic. Many folks who have a high profile are often subject to unwarranted arbitrary attacks. Getting blasted is not a good indicator that you are an "evil" person. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 04:07:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id DAA21152; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA21145 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 03:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12945; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980502070114.A12924@gsp.org> Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:01:14 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199804301921.MAA12857@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:21:20PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:21:20PM -0700, Joe Smith wrote: > You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers. > You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list. No one (that I'm aware of) has suggested that you do, so I don't know why you are trying to rebut a suggestion that hasn't been made. What has been suggested by me and by others is that you need to know what the heck you are doing. If you disagree with this, then please find another Internet to use as your sandbox and come back here when you're acquired basic competency. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 06:07:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA22985; Sat, 2 May 1998 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA22978 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 05:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA29134; Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00980; Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 08:49:48 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Darren Wyn Rees cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc In-Reply-To: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 May 1998, Darren Wyn Rees wrote: > Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's opened > my eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures that say that > one list has three times as much posting activity compared to a list > with twice as many subscribers ... and I'm working out 'why is > that'. That said, I'd still much like *your* opinion on the matter. I believe we did discuss related issues on list-managers a while ago. As I recall, the general consensus was that you can not make useful numerical comparisons of mailing lists. The volume of traffic and other statistics will be very defendant on the topic and other list-specific factors. For example, entertainment fan type mailing list tends to attract a much more chatty crowd than a depression support group. Even forums which are superficially similar can have very different personalities. I host two technical lists on similar topics. In one group, many subscribers are very open and helpful. In the other group, most subscribers tend to treat every bit of knowledge as closely guarded proprietary information. Both of these lists serve a useful purpose but they are quite different statistically. I don't see statistical analysis is generally useful as a list management tool. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 09:22:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA26013; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA26001 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valleys.ndirect.co.uk (root@mail.valleys.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.238]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id RAA03135 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:11:52 +0100 Received: from localhost (merlin@localhost) by valleys.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02493; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:06:29 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: valleys.ndirect.co.uk: merlin owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:06:29 +0100 (BST) From: Darren Wyn Rees X-Sender: merlin@valleys To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc Message-ID: X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame = MR wrote MR>For example, entertainment fan type mailing MR>list tends to attract a much more chatty crowd than a depression MR>support group. yes, ... the list I noted with twice the 'traffic' was a music/fan list. Counterpoint : It's not a law cast in stone, as I can't correlate the above with _other music lists. But as you write... MR>Even forums which are superficially similar can have very different MR>personalities. I agree wholly with MR>Both of these lists serve a useful purpose but they are quite MR>different statistically. but am not sure of ... MR>I don't see statistical analysis is generally useful as a MR>list management tool. as I see it in the reverse. If I've got some well-prepared stats I can make better costings of various list management activities (perhaps I'm taking the definition of 'list-management' too far, and should have explained, I have to deliver etc. the mail for various lists). This is useful for me, it's very useful. I can't think of a single organisation where cost management is not useful. Are there any? Perhaps it's a personality thing, on second thoughts, of _course it is! Different strokes for different folks : I'm a control-freak who'd ideally like to cost each probable post shifted for a given period, down to the last dime. And I love my accounts, and a part-computer & man-made morass of figures that give me a sense of bureacratic omniscience... Counterpoint : Those 'in the know'/experienced don't need these things as they've got instinct (I can't afford instinct for the forseeable future). Or, more succintly in the words of psittler@behemoth.tamu.edu = PS PS>People are different. PS>People behave differently. Yep, that's true. But I don't think it's grounds for my not preparing stats which IMHO give me a better idea of what people are after, what it's costing me to give it to them, and perhaps, how I can give it to them better in future. The term 'statistical analysis' doesn't help as I see it (and I acknowledge quite frankly I'm as green as newbie on this) as it sounds too cold and cerebral... I just want to knowing the market, or audience, or community (whatever metaphors suits thy style) better. What I'd say as an end-note on how stats are 'useful' in my case... I've started toying with some of the Perl code to give people the opportunity to join a list in another language (a nice feature of the forthcoming Mj2). So I look at the stats and I can say, XYZ joined this list in the alternative language. And I know (based on market research) that they get an _extra sense of value from that. That's worth knowing, because without the stats (albeit simple in this case) I'd have no idea how many people were using/valuing something added just for them. I can therefore use my/other people's time more efficiently in future by a greater knowledge (based on useful stats) of the user. I note the comment on 'seasons', but surely the less statistics you have at your disposal, the more likely you will be basing your list 'life cycle' predictions on... instinct, gut-feeling : These are not a bad thing, of course, for those with that kind of experience to go by. -- Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:22:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01281; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01263 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.52]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA05761 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (8.8.8/) via UUCP id SAA18202; Fri, 1 May 1998 18:16:44 -0700 (PDT) env-from (appel@erzo.org) Received: from erzo.org by erzo.org (8.7.5/LUCK-AND-DEATH-1.3) id BAA26901; Sat, 2 May 1998 01:33:14 GMT Message-Id: <199805020133.BAA26901@erzo.org> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Reply-To: appel@erzo.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 May 1998 12:52:48 PDT." <18037.894052368@monkeys.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:33:14 -0700 From: Shannon Appel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>Please quit spamming me and take my address off your list, thank you. > >Does anybody know who this guy is or what his problem is? I thought we were all agreed that it's perfectly acceptable to spam a list with garbage if you can't get you way. Or does that only apply if you live in Roseville? Pot. Kettle. Black. Shannon From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:26:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01317; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01304 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA12901 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.8.5/8.8.5rbak) with SMTP id VAA09787 Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:38:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: "Linda B. Merims" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 1 May 1998, Linda B. Merims wrote: > As we have discovered on the project I am working, the version > of Internet Explorer (3.0) that America Online used as its > web browser does not support JavaScript. At All. ...However, you can use your AOL connection as a Winsock connection and run ANY version of IE or Netscape over it. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 15:29:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA01296; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA01286 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 2 May 1998 15:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA10942 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [153.35.22.180] (1Cust52.max46.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.22.180]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08787 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 19:39:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: bingdo19@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805020155.SAA08593@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:38:20 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Bob Langdon Subject: How to get a discussion started Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I recently started a discussion list for (non-web-based) retail business owners, managers, and salespeople. My question is, how do I get a discussion going. Should I resort to "seeding" the list? Or just pose a contrversial question and hope for some responses. What percentage of subscribers can I expect to particpate? Thanks for any insights you can offer. Bob Langdon webmaster@ retailernews.com retailer-news-digest@Mailing-List.net Bob Langdon webmaster@retailernews.com <===========================================> _Retailer News Online_ magazine http://RetailerNews.com The complete source of business information -brought to you by: Dealer Support Servcies Affordable Website design, hosting and maintenance <============================================> From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 16:07:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA03597; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA03590; Sat, 2 May 1998 16:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tibbs@localhost) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) id SAA09247; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:04:25 -0500 (CDT) To: Darren Wyn Rees Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc References: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.100) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: 02 May 1998 18:04:24 -0500 In-Reply-To: Darren Wyn Rees's message of "Sat, 02 May 1998 08:49:25 GMT" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "DWR" == Darren Wyn Rees writes: DWR> How on earth do *you* experienced list gurus go about DWR> collecting/preparing /collating your list statistics for general DWR> 'management' decisions? You might want to start with something like logmail, which you can grab from ftp.hpc.uh.edu in /pub/majordomo. It generates some useful reports about top posters and subjects and distribution of messages per day and per hour of the day. It is not list-specific; you just pipe messages to it or run it over an mbox file. - J< From list-managers-owner Sat May 2 20:52:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA07828; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from leslie.mystery.com (leslie.mystery.com [198.202.235.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA07821 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 20:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30046 invoked from network); 3 May 1998 03:41:53 -0000 Received: from angus.mystery.com (root@198.202.235.1) by leslie.mystery.com with SMTP; 3 May 1998 03:41:53 -0000 Received: (from gabe@localhost) by angus.mystery.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA26323 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 2 May 1998 23:40:43 -0400 From: Gabe Helou Message-Id: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:40:43 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199805020155.SAA08593@honor.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at May 1, 98 06:55:19 pm Reply-To: gabe@mystery.com X-URL: http://www.mystery.com/~gabe/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ... and then Joe Smith says: } > there _are_ many case in everyday life where you want to have } > someone doing the job who really knows what the hell they are doing. } } And this is not one of them. } } You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers. } You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list. So ... if someone doesn't know how to cook, you'd keep eating whatever burnt offering that person drops on your plate? Are you actually advocating incompetence? If you're going to flip hamburgers, you should be a competent hamburger flipper. If you're going to run a mailing list, you should be a competent list admin. From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 05:07:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA20024; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA20017 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA06806; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13991; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: gabe@mystery.com cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] In-Reply-To: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 May 1998, Gabe Helou wrote: > If you're going to flip hamburgers, you should be a competent > hamburger flipper. If you're going to run a mailing list, you > should be a competent list admin. Now we are getting close a pertinent topic. Would you or anyone else care to define the skills needed to become a "competent list admin"? I'll try a brief outline: Technical skills: Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software used by the list such as: Subscribe Unsubscribe Change subscription modes Non-post Digest Banish Etc. Approve moderated posts if applicable Archive commands (search and retrieve) Special feature server commands as apply to software used Read and understand most bounces. (some server software and or add-on software largely supersedes this skill requirement) Enter alternative subscriber addresses as may be required. Diplomatic and personnel management skills: General understanding of netiquette. Define list charter. Define list subscriber entrance requirements if applicable. Define list posting guidelines. Enforce posting guidelines with minimal impact on discussion. Recruit, train and organize co-admins if applicable. That's a start. Best I can do on short notice early Sunday morning. Dissect my proposals will. There are two broad types of skills needed to become a good list admin: technical skills and diplomatic skills. IMHO, it is easier to train a technically ignorant list manager than it is to train someone who has poor social skills in the diplomatic arts. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 06:37:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id GAA21026; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21017 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 06:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22542; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 09:33:41 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] References: <199805030340.XAA26323@angus.mystery.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400, murr rhame wrote: > Technical skills: > > Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software > used by the list such as: > [...] Add: Judgement to decide when to use server software and when not to; or, in a related vein, which operations to automate and which to do manually. Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability to choose between packages. Basic understanding of SMTP protocol. Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records). Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers. Understanding of the mechanisms and defenses against various forms of abuse, including mailbombing, forged subscriptions, etc. Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request"). Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find users, sites, admins, etc. Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying impact on mailing list subscribers. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Sun May 3 09:37:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA23740; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23731 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 09:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA02812; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA16610; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 12:37:28 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Rich Kulawiec cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] In-Reply-To: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 May 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > Judgement to decide when to use server software and when not to; or, > in a related vein, which operations to automate and which to > do manually. > > Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability > to choose between packages. > > Basic understanding of SMTP protocol. > > Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records). > > Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers. > > Understanding of the mechanisms and defenses against various > forms of abuse, including mailbombing, forged subscriptions, > etc. > > Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request"). > > Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find > users, sites, admins, etc. You forgot to mention a complete understanding of digital signal transmission and assembly language programming. Most of the skills you have listed up to this point are more the purview of a site manager, postmaster or sysadmin rather than a listowner. Someone in the loop should have all of the skills you mentioned. I contend that a good LISTOWNER need not have all of these skills. If all of these skills were required before you could become a listowner, only techno-wizards would be listowners. With proper support, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a good listowner. Up to this point in the skills discussion, we have not mentioned splitting responsibilities into typical divisions. For example, I run a site. I understand the operation and limitations of my server software. My postmasters and sysadmins have a complete understanding of SMTP and all of the other protocols and software needed to connect my server to the net. De-facto list setup standards, such as a "-request" address, are under the jurisdiction of the server admin. While I do use traceroute/whois and such to tack down spam and other net abuse sent to my personal mail and to my server, I almost never use these tools as a list admin. > Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying > impact on mailing list subscribers. These are issues which the listowner needs to handle. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 00:08:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA08835; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA08826 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24831; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:48:32 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] References: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 12:37:28PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 12:37:28PM -0400, murr rhame wrote: > You forgot to mention a complete understanding of digital signal > transmission and assembly language programming. I didn't mention them because I was speaking seriously, not facetiously. I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at best ineffective, at worst incompetent. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 08:53:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA19757; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA19748 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id RAA13504; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id RAA08104; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:47:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199805041547.RAA08104@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Sun, 3 May 1998 08:06:54 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Murr Rhame wrote: > Now we are getting close a pertinent topic. Would you or anyone else > care to define the skills needed to become a "competent list admin"? > I'll try a brief outline: This is an excellent summary - these are skills that a "competent list admin" must have. Depending on the nature of the list some other skills may be needed (e.g. if you run a list for churchplanters you'll should be able to recognize false apostles for what they are.) Those who have been arguing that there is a need for more in-depth technical knowledge on the part of the list-admin are missing that such technical knowledge can be provided by a site admin, a consultant or some other knowledgeable person who is willing to help out whenever the need arises. The one point I'd like to see added is this: Know it when outside technical advice is needed and be determined enough to get it. -- NB. > > Technical skills: > > Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software > used by the list such as: > Subscribe > Unsubscribe > Change subscription modes > Non-post > Digest > Banish > Etc. > Approve moderated posts if applicable > Archive commands (search and retrieve) > Special feature server commands as apply to software used > > Read and understand most bounces. (some server software and or > add-on software largely supersedes this skill requirement) > > Enter alternative subscriber addresses as may be required. > > > Diplomatic and personnel management skills: > > General understanding of netiquette. > > Define list charter. > > Define list subscriber entrance requirements if applicable. > > Define list posting guidelines. Add a comment here that there are legal aspects (e.g. related to copyright) of what posts will be acceptable, as well as social ones. > > Enforce posting guidelines with minimal impact on discussion. > > Recruit, train and organize co-admins if applicable. > > - murr - -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM Churchplanters E-mail conference, see http://genesis.acu.edu/cplant/ From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 09:08:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA19921; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk (ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk [128.98.1.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA19914 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3506 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000 Received: from mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.2) by ns0.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 143 invoked by alias); 4 May 1998 15:54:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 2452 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 15:54:51 -0000 Received: from cray.eris.dera.gov.uk (128.98.2.7) by mail-relay.eris.dera.gov.uk with SMTP; 4 May 1998 15:54:51 -0000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] Organization: CIS3 System and Networks Operations Group, DERA Malvern, UK References: <19980503093341.A22504@gsp.org> <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org> In-reply-to: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 16:54:51 +0100 Message-ID: <28875.894297291@cray.eris.dera.gov.uk> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org>, Rich Kulawiec writes: > I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be > an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at > best ineffective, at worst incompetent. I'm afraid I disagree Rich. What I would say is that most of the items in your list are the province of the Postmaster/Sysadmin staff for the site. Thus simply by having a good working relationship with them they can be both effective and competent at running a list. cheers! Chris -- Christopher Samuel +44 1684 894644 C.Samuel@eris.dera.gov.uk N-115, Defence Evaluation & Research Agency, St Andrews Road, Malvern, UK DISCLAIMER: The views expressed above are entirely those of the author and do not represent the views, policy or understanding of any other entity. From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 09:23:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA20394; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA20387 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id SAA13822; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id SAA08107; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200 Message-Id: <199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <13825.894043420@monkeys.com> (rfg@monkeys.com) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > I will accept without proof that there are indeed many mailing lists on > the net that large groups of people find to be very useful and valuable > resources _and_ which are badly administered by people who don't know > what they are doing. Good, so I don't need to provide those three examples. > In such cases, the ``value'' of the list is highly dependent upon who you > ask. The subscribers may steadfastly assert that the thing is very valuable, > whereas if you ask me, _I_ may say that (overall) the thing is mostly just > a net-menace Ok, as far as this we're in agreement. > which ought to be quietly done away with. It is here that we disagree. So the same thing is very valuable for some people but a menace to others. And the good news is that the "menace" part of the thing _can_ be fixed without telling any list-owner to close down their lists. I hereby offer to any list-owner to provide for a flat fee of US-$200 all the technical knowledge and advice which is needed for properly securing a mailing list so that it is no longer a net-menace (in respect to subscription-bombing as well as in respect to the various methods employed by spammers to obtain e-mail addresses from subscription lists and mailing list archives.) By the way, I really think that this service will be available cheaper elsewhere; e.g. there are many great people on the net who give this kind of advice for free, but since I have a very heavy workload I can make this kind of offer only if I write something on the "price tag". NB. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 10:22:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA22117; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA22108 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14746 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA11108 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:20:09 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 04 May 1998 18:16:20 +0200. <199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:20:09 -0700 Message-ID: <11106.894302409@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199805041616.SAA08107@pythagoras>, Norbert Bollow wrote: >I hereby offer to any list-owner to provide for a flat fee of US-$200 all >the technical knowledge and advice which is needed for properly securing >a mailing list so that it is no longer a net-menace (in respect to >subscription-bombing as well as in respect to the various methods employed >by spammers to obtain e-mail addresses from subscription lists and mailing >list archives.) > >By the way, I really think that this service will be available cheaper >elsewhere; e.g. there are many great people on the net who give this kind >of advice for free, but since I have a very heavy workload I can make this >kind of offer only if I write something on the "price tag". I do feel that Norbert's offer is reasonable, and that it may in fact be accepted by at least some list admins. For my part, what _I_ am willing to offer is to give any list admin who is running a list without subscription confirmations the ISBN number of that new O'Reilly mailing list book. (I wish I could do more, but that is all I have time for and is, in any case, all that should really be required.) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 12:07:49 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25290; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA25281 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa01105; 4 May 98 11:54 PDT Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 04 May 98 09:03:41 PDT for List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Mon, 04 May 98 08:44:33 PDT In-Reply-To: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec writes: > I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be > an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at > best ineffective, at worst incompetent. Oh, yeah? Well, I say those who store all their concern and regard into inhuman techie trunks are like Masters and Johnson stringing electrodes to bodies in motion; they mistake the manner for the matter. Any fool replicant can duplicate code mechanics with Qmail and assimilate gross rote ituitions of sendmail and the result would be the same had Dr Frankinstein attempted to create his monster out of stolen rings and watches and eyeglasses, neglecting the heart and soul. Such a cyborg sense of a mailing list would figure all was well no matter the turmoil, anguish, woe and off-topic squealing within were he to have a good bounce ratio and low intrusion rate to his list. Leaving out the heart and soul, you could train a reasonably bright orangutan to make a fine listowner by that criteria. Ahh, but the listowner for me is one who does not become distracted by the pure mechanics of his toys but instead relishes the topic and the humans who bring it to life. Without that heart and mind, a list is but a tinkling symbol, a wind-up toy, rendering whizz and flash and smoke and mirrors, signifying nothing. To answer your reflex question, yep, NerdNosh has all components, thank you very much. I worry about heartbeat and soul substance, and allow an excellent engineer to keep the wires humming. For you old hands, substitute Kinsey up there for Masters and Johnson, and `gamma minus machine minder' for orangutan. Ain't this fun? mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 13:38:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA27240; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA27231 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01796; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980504163356.A1773@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:33:56 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <199805041731.KAA26731@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199805041731.KAA26731@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:31:48AM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:31:48AM -0700, Joe Smith wrote: > The correct thing to do is select mailing list software that does NOT > require intimate understanding of MX records, bounces, nondelivery reports, > etc just to use the software. Nonsense. No piece of software is a substitute for understanding the basics. The correct thing to do is to spend the time (I'd estimate a couple of weeks, tops) to study the online resources which are available in plentiful quantity and learn how all this works before trying to use it. I have no idea why so many people are advocating that list managers should remain ignorant, but perhaps this in part explains why so many mailing lists are so badly run. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 13:46:53 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA27363; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA27356 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01833; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980504163750.B1773@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:37:50 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] References: <19980503204832.A24824@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Bowden on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:44:33AM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:44:33AM -0700, Tim Bowden wrote: > Rich Kulawiec writes: > > > I stand by my statement: I feel those skills are necessary to be > > an effective mailing list manager/owner. Those who lack them are at > > best ineffective, at worst incompetent. > > Such a cyborg sense of a mailing list would figure all was well > no matter the turmoil, anguish, woe and off-topic squealing within > were he to have a good bounce ratio and low intrusion rate to his list. I simply gave the technical criteria that I felt were required, and I gave them as *additions* to a pre-existing list -- which had technical and non-technical requirements. I made no attempt to list additional non-technical requirements, which SHOULD NOT be taken as a statement that I feel there aren't any: I simply declined to list them because I felt considerably more thought was required before doing so. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 14:22:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28303; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28282 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA14030 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25]) by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26624 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:50 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02757 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:47 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805042110.QAA02757@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Software vs List Management Skills To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:10:46 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec wrote: > Nonsense. No piece of software is a substitute for understanding the basics. Hear, hear!! No list management software is so good that it can replace 100% of the list manager's intellect, whether that be for dealing with clueless subscribers, arcane bounces, mail systems that refuse to follow the standards, or any other standard, rule, or protocol that one might envision as being applicable to mailing lists. And I think that while a healthy dose of technical information is useful to list managers, it isn't an absolute requirement if there is someone else in the loop who does have those skills and can be utilized as the need arises, such as a system or mail adminstrator. My experience is that most new list managers will pick up quite a bit of information about e-mail from running their lists, but I think it is incumbent on the system/mail managers NOT to inflict poorly configured new lists upon the Internet. These days I think that means not allowing new lists without a confirm requirement for new subscribers unless there is a mighty good reason for it. (I can't THINK of such a reason right off the top of my head, but I'm willing to allow that one might exist.) I would go even further. I don't think that new Internet hookups should be permitted if they have wide open SMTP ports that don't prohibit relaying from unknown parties, among other security holes. And I think that the backbones should develop some real, ahem, backbone and disconnect sites or even entire networks that consistently abuse the net. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 14:28:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id OAA28361; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28345 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id OAA02829; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805042113.OAA02829@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com Subject: Listowner Skills Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I haven't seen something yet in this thread that I consider a very important listowner requirement. Though it's one that just about everyone on List Managers already has, or they wouldn't be here. Time. I have seen lists decend into chaos because the listowner seems to be absent. It's okay for a subscriber to be one of those people who logs in every week or so and skims through their email. No listowner should be like that. Every list needs at least one designated person (who does not have to be the actual owner, and certainly doesn't have to be the admin) who reads the list daily and deals with problems as they come up. Problems include: unsubscribe requests posted to the list (they tend to snowball), flame wars (assuming these are undesirable to you), personal attacks (see flame wars), posts by members that violate the list rules (like ads). This person (the list mom) needs to be able to do three different things: 1) post to the list when needed to curb flames and inappropriate posts; 2) write subscribers individually and deal with problems they may be having; 3) have the power to yank people from the list or put them on non-post status, as available and needed. There also needs to be at least one person available on a daily basis at the list-owner/admin address to deal with questions and problems. Unfortunately, this requirement makes it damn hard to have a mailing list and take a vacation, or have a personal/family crisis. Way back when my list was purely manually run (I'll never do *that* again!), it was impossible to have a backup person and I ended up with a lot of problems on my hands when I moved crosscountry or otherwise didn't have net access for a few days. But it's the listowners that never/rarely read their own lists and/or don't log in every day on most days that concern me. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 16:22:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA00758; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA00746 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa28406; 4 May 98 16:19 PDT Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 04 May 98 15:01:04 PDT for List-Managers@greatcircle.com To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Mon, 04 May 98 14:44:10 PDT In-Reply-To: <19980504163750.B1773@gsp.org> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story conference as cyber-community! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec writes: > I simply gave the technical criteria that I felt were required, and I > gave them as *additions* to a pre-existing list -- which had technical > and non-technical requirements. I made no attempt to list additional > non-technical requirements, which SHOULD NOT be taken as a statement > that I feel there aren't any: I simply declined to list them because > I felt considerably more thought was required before doing so. Understood. And if this is the proper forum, I'd like to see some of those requirements listed. I mean, if this is the proper forum, why, I'd say (1) Knowledge of or facility with the topic. (2) A true and abiding regard for that subject. (3) Dedication and time and energy. (4) Experience with the cycles of one-to-many list dynamics, and (5) A quick and sure hand in monitoring that spectrum. (6) Either the hands-on ability or an incessant sniveling personality to convince site adminstrators of the need for certain features, e.g.,. (a) verified enrollment (b) a quick and easy twit ban (c) the list roster is open to none but the owner What else? I wonder if there are list managers who excel in both categories, the technical and the operational? When I see here comments like, `I'm not responsible for private mail,' and `I don't care if my list is pirated as long as it runs like it should,' I wonder. Of course, if this isn't on-topic for this list, forget I said anything. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 20:52:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05861; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05851 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chaos.taylored.com (chaos.taylored.com [206.53.224.58]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA28705 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 12:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9196 invoked by uid 100); 2 May 1998 19:36:01 -0000 Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:36:00 -0500 (EST) From: Chael Hall To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: I hate it when that happens... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's a message I got from a subscriber after they had been moved to the bounces list due to a full mailbox. Enjoy... --Chael ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: bouncie bouncie? I keep getting a message from the bounces list, but I'm not subscribed to it. If you were having a problem with reaching my account, here's what happened. 3 weeks ago my computer suffered a physical breakage. A cat accidentally fell off the monitor and snagged the wire for the keyboard. Poor kitty! Poor keyboard! The connector inside on the motherboard, which was already loose, snapped off and I had to send the computer in for repairs. I asked my dad if he'd pick up my email, but he thinks that because my email isn't "important" stuff (like the family contacting me to tell me about appointments or stuff like that) that if it just piled up and I had to get rid of it, it wouldn't really matter, so he didn't get it for me. I asked my sister, but her husband said no (even though it's really none of his business.) At any rate, that's what happened. At any rate, I just wanted to let you know what happened so you wouldn't have the wrong impression of me and think I'm an idiot. If you want to think that about my dad, feel free. I do love him and he means the world to me... but he's still an idiot. :) Lt. Trakal Operative of the Galaxy Police SIU From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 20:57:07 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05841; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05833 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from behemoth.tamu.edu (BEHEMOTH.TAMU.EDU [128.194.44.99]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA23781; Sat, 2 May 1998 06:43:00 -0700 (PDT) From: psittler@behemoth.tamu.edu Received: from localhost (psittler@localhost) by behemoth.tamu.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA05211; Sat, 2 May 1998 07:45:14 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:45:14 -0500 (CDT) To: Darren Wyn Rees cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List statistics, time & motions etc In-Reply-To: <354cd441.2313110@post.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 2 May 1998, Darren Wyn Rees wrote: > Do I really need these figures? Well, yes, as I think it's > opened my eyes to some 'odd' things : I'm looking at figures > that say that one list has three times as much posting activity > compared to a list with twice as many subscribers ... and I'm > working out 'why is that'. That said, I'd still much like > *your* opinion on the matter. So be it. This will sound like an oversimplification, but. . . People are different. People behave differently. Lists are different. People on lists behave differently. Some lists are seasonal. Some lists die. All people do. > Sincerely, > -- > Darren Wyn Rees Email merlin@merlin.netlink.co.uk And now, for a little bit of the wisdom of the ages. . . "We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life, that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress, while only producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization." --- Petronius Gaius (The Arbiter) 60 A.D. --- ------- Paul M. Sittler (root) | / / (_)__ __ ____ __ | The choice Leviathan System Admin | / /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / | of a GNU email: p-sittler@tamu.edu | /____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ | Generation Phone: 409 845-9689 A 486 is a terrible thing to waste. Pager: 409 759-1258 A 386SX is a terrible thing. From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:01:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05891; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05881 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (antiochus-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.188]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22624 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 08:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voyager (d9.dial-2.wal.ma.ultra.net [146.115.77.41]) by antiochus-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult.n14767) with SMTP id LAA24335 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980503153556.013c0e00@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:35:56 -0400 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Stan Ryckman Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:33 AM 5/3/98 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 08:06:54AM -0400, murr rhame wrote: >> Technical skills: >> >> Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software >> used by the list such as: >> [...] > >Add: [snip] > > Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability > to choose between packages. There may be no choice for a given site. Having that choice is not a technical skill, anyway. > Basic understanding of SMTP protocol. 'Scuse me, since when does a listowner need to get SMTP working? > Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records). 'Scuse me? I think you're confusing listowner with site administrator. Understanding MX missles would be just as useful for most listowners. > Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers. No. Maybe "basic" here (Sender vs. From vs. Reply-To) but you won't find experts even agreeing about other things (such as the correct use of Resent-* headers by mailing lists). Of little use to a listowner except maybe to explain Reply-To to really novice subscribers. [snip] > Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request"). Unless mail addressed to *-request at his list will actually be delivered to him, this is irrelevant to a listowner. Addressing is generally a function of the MLM software in use. Rephrased as "knowledge of the addressing conventions of the MLM software being used," I might agree. > Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find > users, sites, admins, etc. Overkill. Site admins may need these things. Listowners hardly do. Furthermore, many listowners *only* have email access to run the list, not any login privileges, and this is sufficient when the MLM software supports it. > Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying > impact on mailing list subscribers. I don't see why it's necessary rather than nice-to-have. Cheers, Stan From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:06:13 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA05904; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA05894 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izzy4.izzy.net (izzy4.izzy.net [198.108.102.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA29433 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy4.izzy.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) id SAA14515 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:16:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy4.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to atbbs!dbsmith using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA02557; 03 May 98 18:14:27 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 03 May 98 17:42:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailin Message-ID: References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Organization: American Tune BBS To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk RK>On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:03:55PM -0700, Jason Rasku wrote: RK>> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: RK>> > Name three. RK>> RK>> I know you only asked for three, but I gave RK>> you aproximately 20 that I know for sure, and, probably close to a RK>> thousand other lists. [...] On Fri May 1 03:27:59 1998, Rich Kulawiec wrote: RK>I don't think Ron is suggesting any such thing. I think what Ron is RK>suggesting is that people who do not know the difference between "listserv" RK>and "a mailing list", what an MX record does, what EXPN and VRFY are RK>and what they do, and similar bits of information are simply not RK>competent to run a mailing list. RK>This does not make such people Bad People, simply incompetent in one RK>particular area of life. The remedy is to either (a) convince them RK>to achieve competency or (b) get them to turn the reins over to RK>someone who is. This begins to sound like a problem of definitions. You sound convinced that knowledge of the mechanics of one way to run a maillist is essential for running one. I use an entirely different mechanism, by way of an Internet gateway on my DOS BBS. You don't have to know how to use that mechanisms; that doesn't make you incompetent. BTW, all my lists are subscribers-only-post and confirmation-required. I don't do that the same way you do; that doesn't make me incompetent. If a maillist is a particular technological structure of hardware and software, then I suppose knowing how to run that hardware and software is required for competency. If a maillist is a discussion among people, then knowing how to run a particular (albeit common) set of programs and hardware is not essential; it is only handy. In the old west, not everyone carried a gun or wore a badge. And that pesky definition problem again. Is my boss competent to run the place where I work? There's a lot of computer work involved, and he's clueless regarding computers. So I suppose he isn't, in that sense. But since I do all that stuff anyway, he is competent. He was competent enough to hire me. Is he competent to shoot a holdup guy, if we get robbed? Probably not. I might be, but that's not vital either. That's what the County Sherriff's office has all those guys with guns & badges for. So for "running a maillist" as a hands-on, jack-of-all-trades tech, well, I suppose all that stuff you mentioned is life-or-death vital. But for "running a maillist" as an intelligent person who knows how to guide and participate in a conversation, no it is not. Best option would be for all these "little town" maillists to have a technically competent "sherriff." But that doesn't mean the world of maillists should only be made up of sherriffs, if you will. I think the point has already been made that Site Admins can effectively act in that peacekeeper capacity. Being the best sherriff is not necessarily te same as the best mayor. Makes me wonder why folks gave up on BBS networks -- where after all, the Sysops provided the necessary technical savvy and security, and the conference hosts conducted the discussions. Maybe someday, when civilization reaches this part of the High Plains. * SLMR 2.1a * You're only old once. It just seems longer than that. -- >> David B. Smith | Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> Host of DEATHLAW Maillist. "Subscribe deathlaw" to listserv@atbbs.com From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:07:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA06629; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA06620 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06036; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980505000745.A5862@gsp.org> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:07:45 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700, Joe Smith wrote: > It is not the list-manager's job to become the sysadmin/postmaster for > the site. [...] Nor have I suggested that they do so. I have suggested that they should have a basic understanding of the mechanics of mail and mailing lists so that they have a fighting chance of dealing with the 1001 things that can and do go wrong. As a mailing list owner, this is their responsibility. Those who do not wish to have this responsibility should not attempt to run mailing lists. > Lists are for general people, not just the techies. They certainly are. But *operating* one, as opposed to participating in one, requires a modicum of knowledge, easily acquired using online resources alone at zero cost -- except for one's time. Frankly, anyone too lazy to spend a couple of weeks (maximum!) learning the rudiments of how all this works deserves all the grief he/she will surely get, sooner or later. Again, I find myself amazed that people are defending the viewpoint that mailing list owners should remain in ignorance. What's the problem with learning something? Or is it easier to just label that body of knowledge as "just for the techies", attempt to dump the problem on them, whoever "them" is, than it is to actually use one's brain? ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:37:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA07834; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07809 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA36276 ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:36:29 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980505000745.A5862@gsp.org> References: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM>; from Joe Smith on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:03:17PM -0700 <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:31:49 -0700 To: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:07 PM -0700 5/4/98, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > Again, I find myself amazed that people are defending the viewpoint > that mailing list owners should remain in ignorance. I'm not. As long as SOMEONE is around that knows that sort of stuff, why should everyone be forced to? Now, there's no justification for sites with nobody watching the store, but not every environment is set up so that everyone runs things alone. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Mon May 4 21:41:31 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA07769; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07762 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.167.80.70] (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA37384 ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:31:42 -0700 X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <6943.893956646@monkeys.com> <19980430182641.A8120@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:30:02 -0700 To: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailin Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:42 PM -0700 5/3/98, David B. Smith wrote: > If a maillist is a particular technological structure of hardware and > software, then I suppose knowing how to run that hardware and software > is required for competency. *Someone* has to know how to run the servers. But the task of running the server and the task of running the list are not necessarily the same person. I think this list is stacked with folks who more or less run their own show, and that bias is quite evident. My job is to do the plumbing, so that the folks at Apple who use mail lists can focus on content. A bit part of the work I've done building things is to set things up so people DON'T need to know the grimy details to get THEIR job done. In fact, I'd break it down into three jobs, which can heavily overlap depending on the situation -- the person who runs the list server, the person who runs the list, and the person who manages the content on that list (as moderator, list mom, friendly uncle, or whatever). So you need three separate skills definitions, and it may or may not be multiple people. Server operator: general server operations. postmaster mail. Intercedes when all hell breaks loose. Makes sure everything runs. List operator: handles the specific of the list. The primary difference beween this one and teh server operator is that I view this as where bounce processing and subscribe/unsubscribe intervention handles for a list. content operator: moderator, content cop, list mom. Name your poison. The person who's actually IN the list making decisions on what is and isn't posted to the list. Two "jobs" are operational, one editorial. And how you split up the "jobs" depends on the people, the server, and the organizational. For most lists, I'm server and list operator, but for most lists on my site, others are content -- and it makes sense for a technical person to deal with the technical stuff, and let the folks worry about the information. > Makes me wonder why folks gave up on BBS networks -- where after all, > the Sysops provided the necessary technical savvy and security, and the > conference hosts conducted the discussions. Maybe someday, when > civilization reaches this part of the High Plains. Because the costs of the internet dropped to the point where it was cost effecive to connect to the net, instead of dealing with the BBS with/without a phone dialup setup. Eventually, technology just overtook BBSes. And if you look around, a bunch of them (and/or their operators) are actualy still around, but doing it via Internet instead now in various forms. sort of like asking why folks switched USENET from phone/UUCP connections to NNTP connections. Because the technologies and costs changed.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 10:38:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA24572; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (andromeda.ndirect.co.uk [194.74.254.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24565 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valleys.ndirect.co.uk (root@mail.valleys.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.238]) by andromeda.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id SAA10982 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:26:07 +0100 Received: from localhost (merlin@localhost) by valleys.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05128; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:03:40 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: valleys.ndirect.co.uk: merlin owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:03:39 +0100 (BST) From: Darren Wyn Rees X-Sender: merlin@valleys To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] Message-ID: X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stan Ryckman on 03 May 1998: >'Scuse me, since when does a listowner need to get SMTP working? >From the start I assume (in my case, and IMHO increasingly so... it seems, for other people). - eg. If you're running a list at an Academic Institution with a paid staff & 'technostructure', yes (you're quite right); but if you're running a list on the back of old 486 in your attic or garage (or wherever)... then you really need to 'get SMTP working' etc. (Strange things is from my point of view, I telephoned one of my ISP's technical support staff two months ago and asked them a rudimentary question on SMTP and they responded ... "err... you need a consultant for that kinda question." So I bought O'Reilly's book 'Sendmail' and said, buggar the consultancy fees!) -- Darren Wyn Rees mailto:merlin@netlink.co.uk From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 11:24:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA25678; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nisto.com (nisto.com [207.34.64.161]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA25670 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.34.64.181] by nisto.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 5 May 1998 12:20:34 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:21:54 -0600 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ListMom-Talk@lists.SKYLIST.net From: Grant Neufeld Subject: Spam mistaken for list posting Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I received a very angry email from someone today. They had received a spam which looked to them like it had been sent to them from my grantcgi-announce mailing list. The "To:" field of the spam contained the address of my list (which is what made the recipient think they got it from my list). I was able to immediately see that the message was not from my list (the list is moderated - I'm the only one who can post to it). However, the user (their judgement clouded by the annoyance of receiving spam - something I can relate to) upon finding they couldn't unsubscribe from my list (since they weren't actually a subscriber) proceeded to send out some mail to various addresses (including an AT&T admin because the From: address was an att.com address) to have me dealt with for the spam (which I didn't do). Now, I certainly agree with and advocate challenging spammers at every opportunity, but here is a case where I too was a victim of the spammer (although the user did not know that from their limited understanding of the situation). I have responded to the user (and the various addresses they Cc'd) to clarify the situation and make sure they understand that I am not the spammer. I've also asked them to forward a copy of the complete headers for the spam message so I can try to take action on it, too. Has anyone here had to deal with a situation like this before? Any recommendations? Thanks. -- http://www.nisto.com/ O- <*> I accept MIME PGP: 4077 8306 9115 94B0 CEA6 F4F4 3B9A 9482 D158 7B9A http://www.nisto.com/grant/pgpkey.txt From list-managers-owner Tue May 5 18:23:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA04096; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA04083 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id SAA23547; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805060113.SAA23547@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: grant@nisto.com CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from Grant Neufeld on Tue, 5 May 1998 12:21:54 -0600) Subject: Re: Spam mistaken for list posting Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yes, I've had people blame me for spam that was merely cc'd to my mailing list. They usually calm down after you explain things to them. Regardless of whether or not the user gets it, compentant postmasters and sysadmins will immediately understand the situation, just as you did. There are some incompantent ones out there but hopefully you have enough sense not to pay any of them for an account :-). Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com __________________________________________________ http://www.best.com/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Fri May 8 09:56:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA09525; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA09518 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA07267; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27319; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:02:51 -0700 To: jonathon cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 05 May 1998 19:37:10 -0000. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:02:51 -0700 Message-ID: <27317.894646971@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >On Mon, 4 May 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > >> is running a list without subscription confirmations the ISBN number of > > Page 44: "Can require confirmation of subscriptions" > ListProc: No > ListServ: Yes > MajorDomo: Yes > SmartList: No > > So what does the responsible ListOwner do, who uses ListProc, > or SmartList? Ummm... switch to a different list management package (?) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 8 10:23:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA10257; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA10226 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08666; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA27929; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:25:31 -0700 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, ListMom-Talk@lists.SKYLIST.net Subject: Re: Spam mistaken for list posting In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 05 May 1998 12:21:54 -0600. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:25:31 -0700 Message-ID: <27927.894648331@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Grant Neufeld wrote: >I received a very angry email from someone today. > >They had received a spam which looked to them like it had been sent to them >from my grantcgi-announce mailing list. The "To:" field of the spam >contained the address of my list (which is what made the recipient think >they got it from my list). > >I was able to immediately see that the message was not from my list... >... >Has anyone here had to deal with a situation like this before? Any >recommendations? Perhaps coincidently, while I was out of town earlier this week on a business trip, it appears that someone (probably some spammer) took it upon himself/herself to send out a bunch of spam E-mails which looked like they were trying to sell my commercial junk E-mail filter. Neither I nor my company had anything to do with this and it is clearly a frame-up job intended to embarrass me and my company and to cause us trouble. If and when I catch the perp, I'm going to have my attorney pound his balls flat with a very heavy legal mallet. P.S. Do a web search for `flowers.com' to get information about another case in which a spammer forged the name of someone else's domain. Basically, the spammer was made to pay for the damages. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 8 12:23:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA12062; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.inetnebr.com (eagle.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA12055 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from carrot.tssi.com (root@gateway2.tssi.com [198.136.212.126]) by eagle.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08366; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.136.212.25]) by carrot.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00522; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:13 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA17571; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:10 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805081910.OAA17571@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing To: rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:09 -0500 (CDT) Cc: grafolog@eskimo.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <27317.894646971@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at May 8, 98 10:02:51 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >On Mon, 4 May 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > > > >> is running a list without subscription confirmations the ISBN number of > > > > Page 44: "Can require confirmation of subscriptions" > > ListProc: No > > ListServ: Yes > > MajorDomo: Yes > > SmartList: No > > > > So what does the responsible ListOwner do, who uses ListProc, > > or SmartList? > > Ummm... switch to a different list management package (?) This list is somewhat inaccurate. Although the base SmartList package (which has gone mostly unmodified for around 2 years because the original author has lamentably moved on to other projects) does not include a subscription confirmation option, an add-on written by Michelle Dick gives it this capability, and it works quite decently, thank you. It is mentioned in the online FAQ for SmartList. I must have missed the previous post in this thread, does the above list come from the new O'Reilly mailing list book? The SmartList user community (not nearly as moribund or uncaring as some might believe) is looking to set up a group to take over maintenance of the product, which IMHO has several advantages over MajorDomo. I've used both, I prefer SmartList. The underlying engine for SmartList, the procmail filter, is solid enough that it is supported as a configuration option in sendmail. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Fri May 8 13:23:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA12926; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA12919 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA25806; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA08076; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:13:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:13:23 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: jonathon , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <27317.894646971@monkeys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Ummm... switch to a different list management package (?) With Listproc 6.0c you would only need to RTFM and make to proper changes to the config file. The freeware version of listproc definitely can do confirmations. The freeware version does not support automated "cookies" but it definitely supports listowner controlled confirmations. I presume that the commercial version supports automated subscription confirmations. I hereby volunteer to assist with anyone listproc confirmation configurations. Drop me a note by private email if you need help. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri May 8 18:23:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA17683; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:19:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postal.magibox.net (postal.magibox.net [206.26.142.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA17675 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.214.194.10] (host-209-214-193-3.mem.bellsouth.net [209.214.193.3]) by postal.magibox.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with ESMTP id UAA31346 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:20:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.magibox.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <27317.894646971@monkeys.com> References: Your message of Tue, 05 May 1998 19:37:10 -0000. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:26:19 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Ken Hooper Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Page 44: "Can require confirmation of subscriptions" >> ListProc: No >> ListServ: Yes >> MajorDomo: Yes >> SmartList: No This is a surprise. I run SmartList and my list has a fine confirmation processor. It is not quite as user-friendly as Listserv's as it requires pasting the confirm command + cookie into the subject line, but then again I regard this as a feature--people who are too dumb to follow clear, concise instructions cannot get past the confirmation processor and that's okay with me. There are several grounds one might employ to dismiss SmartList but this is not one of them. --Ken From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:40:48 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05286; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05276 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23344 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jms@localhost) by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26741 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:36:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199805041736.KAA26741@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If you're going to flip hamburgers, you should be a competent hamburger > flipper. If you're going to run a mailing list, you should be a > competent list admin. Actually, I agree with this. The discussion so far has placed the standard of compentency far too high. Appropriate software brings the compentency level down to where the people who use the list can run the list. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:47:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05370; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05361 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA28144 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jms@localhost) by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA27310; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199805042103.OAA27310@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, rsk@gsp.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:31:48AM -0700, Joe Smith wrote: > > The correct thing to do is select mailing list software that does NOT > > require intimate understanding of MX records, bounces, nondelivery reports, > > etc just to use the software. > > Nonsense. No piece of software is a substitute for understanding the basics. Good software is sufficient to get the job done. It is not the list-manager's job to become the sysadmin/postmaster for the site. There are other people tasked with that job. For a site where a single person owns the machine and installs the sofware, then I agree with you. But on a shared machine, one that already has a competent staff to handle sysadmin/postmaster duties, then it is wrong to demand that the listowner have the same technical background as the staff. Lists are for general people, not just the techies. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:51:15 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05445; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05432 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27769 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eskimo.com (grafolog@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mx1.eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA17691; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:08 -0700 Received: from localhost (grafolog@localhost) by eskimo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11383; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: eskimo.com: grafolog owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:37:10 +0000 (GMT) From: jonathon To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing In-Reply-To: <11106.894302409@monkeys.com> Message-ID: X-No-Archive: Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 May 1998, Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > is running a list without subscription confirmations the ISBN number of Page 44: "Can require confirmation of subscriptions" ListProc: No ListServ: Yes MajorDomo: Yes SmartList: No So what does the responsible ListOwner do, who uses ListProc, or SmartList? > that new O'Reilly mailing list book. (I wish I could do more, but that 1-56592-259-X xan jonathon jblake@graphology.org ********************************************************************** * E-mail to grafolog@eskimo.com will be read by a mailbot. * ********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:54:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05306; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05296 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23124 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jms@localhost) by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26731; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199805041731.KAA26731@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, rsk@gsp.org Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > You don't need a college degree to flip hamburgers. > > You don't need a college degree to run a mailing list. > > No one (that I'm aware of) has suggested that you do, so I don't > know why you are trying to rebut a suggestion that hasn't been made. > > What has been suggested by me and by others is that you need to know > what the heck you are doing. If you disagree with this, then please > find another Internet to use as your sandbox and come back here when > you're acquired basic competency. Sorry, wrong answer. The correct thing to do is select mailing list software that does NOT require intimate understanding of MX records, bounces, nondelivery reports, etc just to use the software. The software I'm referring do does handle such details itself, without burdening the list manager with arcana. Good software takes care of the drudge work so that you don't have to. I cannot recommend majordomo or listserv because they have require too much computer knowlege just to set up and run a simple mailing list. I am arguing that the "basic competency" that you and Ron are advocating is too high. You seem to be arguing that *ALL* mailing-list software is as difficult to use as majordomo, therefore anyone who is not competent enough to properly install that package is not competent enough to run *ANY* mailing list whatsoever. There are alternatives, you know. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:55:45 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05319; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05309 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-d-math-north-g-west.math.ethz.ch [129.132.145.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23271 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pythagoras (bollow@pythagoras [129.132.146.161]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.8.8/Main-STAT-mailer) with ESMTP id TAA14610; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:34:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (bollow@localhost) by pythagoras (SMI-8.6/D-MATH-client) id TAA08314; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:34:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:34:52 +0200 Message-Id: <199805041734.TAA08314@pythagoras> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <19980501120438.A2511@gsp.org> (message from Rich Kulawiec on Fri, 1 May 1998 12:04:38 -0400) Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec wrote: > A correction to my own note: > > On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 09:49:16AM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > > They're not my criteria. They're Ron's. I simply gave my take on > > what an answer would look like -- and I could easily be wrong, since I > > was interpreting what Ron had to say. For an authoritative answer, > > I suggest you ask him. > > Actually, they belong to Norbert Bollow , who made > the statement in question. Ron merely asked him to name three which > satisfied the criteria...which neither he nor anyone else has, yet. For the record, here is a copy of my original statement: : but many of the most valuable lists on the internet are run by : people who are not knowledgeable about the technical aspects of proper : mailing-list set-up To maybe clarify a bit: Anyone who has minimal social competence (i.e. is able to deal properly with people) and is willing to invest a good deal of time and some money is able to run a list well, provided that this list-owner * is willing to learn the various required skills * has the list set-up checked (and if necessary corrected) by someone who understands all the technical details. (BTW is is my experience that *many* ISPs don't have anyone on the staff who understands all of the relevant issues well enough.) * will get additional advice when necessary NB. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland Backup E-mail address: NB@POBOX.COM From list-managers-owner Sat May 9 13:59:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA05345; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA05335 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (gallifrey.tymnet.com [131.146.3.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23808 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jms@localhost) by gallifrey.Tymnet.COM (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26751 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:55:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Smith Message-Id: <199805041755.KAA26751@gallifrey.Tymnet.COM> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listowner Skills [Was: list bombing] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Use and understand the listowner commands for the server software > > used by the list such as: This is good. Now I can explain the requirements from the point of view of a user on an ISP that provides competent software for its users. > Add: > Judgement to decide when to use server software and when not to; or, > in a related vein, which operations to automate and which to > do manually. On this particular ISP, there is no choice. > Understanding of limitations/bugs in various packages and ability > to choose between packages. Not needed (see above). > Basic understanding of SMTP protocol. > Basic understanding of DNS (including MX records). > Thorough understanding of RFC 822 headers. Not needed; the software handles bounces, and unsubscribes undeliverable addresses automatically. > Understanding of the mechanisms and defenses against various > forms of abuse, including mailbombing, forged subscriptions, > etc. Subscription requests require confirmation. Default configuration is that posting is allowed only from subscribers. > Knowledge of de facto conventions (e.g. "-request"). Taken care of by the ISP when they set up a mailing list for you. > Ability to use whois/traceroute and other network tools to find > users, sites, admins, etc. Definately required for open lists, not needed that often for closed lists. > Awareness of privacy/copyright/etc. issues which have varying > impact on mailing list subscribers. Very important. I'd say this is more important than RFCs and protocols. I'd like to distinguish between two types of listowners: 1) The person with root privileges on his/her machine must be very competent, including all the items on Rich's list, to manage the software that they are responsible for. 2) The person with a shell account at a competent ISP that allows its users to run mailing lists on the ISP's machines. In this case, the burden of competency shifts to people providing the functionality. I.e., the ISP's programmers must be competent; the user needs only be responsible. -Joe From list-managers-owner Sun May 10 12:38:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA27148; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linus.mitre.org (linus.mitre.org [129.83.10.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA27135 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from caffeine.mitre.org (caffeine [129.83.10.136]) by linus.mitre.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09321 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from justin@localhost) by caffeine.mitre.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29945; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:31:41 -0400 (EDT) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Prevalence of mailing-list bombing References: From: Justin Sheehy Date: 10 May 1998 15:31:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: jonathon's message of "Tue, 5 May 1998 19:37:10 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.9/Emacs 20.2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk jonathon writes: > Page 44: "Can require confirmation of subscriptions" > ListProc: No > SmartList: No > So what does the responsible ListOwner do, who uses ListProc, > or SmartList? They get new list server software. -Justin From list-managers-owner Mon May 11 00:08:41 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA04982; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chong.ihug.co.nz (chong.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA04975 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p4-max6.well.ihug.co.nz [209.76.103.4]) by chong.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17359 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:01:19 +1200 Message-ID: <3556A1A6.510A7504@ihug.co.nz> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:58:47 +1200 From: Olwen Williams X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Valu in list suppliers. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Someone on this list mentioned onelist.com as being the best of the free list providers. I've heard it suggested that mail generally takes about 8 hrs to be delivered. It this true? Can anyone suggest a good value supplier? My obesity surgery support list has about 250 members and up to 200 messages a day. -- Olwen Williams (olwen@ihug.co.nz) in Wellington, New Zealand http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~olwen ICQ Personal 1220247, OSSG-Olwen Chatroom 5755408 From list-managers-owner Mon May 11 07:25:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA13647; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA13640 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA08683; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA25171; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Olwen Williams cc: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Re: Valu in list suppliers. In-Reply-To: <3556A1A6.510A7504@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 11 May 1998, Olwen Williams wrote: > Someone on this list mentioned onelist.com as being the best of the > free list providers. I've heard it suggested that mail generally > takes about 8 hrs to be delivered. It this true? Can anyone > suggest a good value supplier? My obesity surgery support list has > about 250 members and up to 200 messages a day. 250 subscribers times 200 messages is 50,000 messages sent per day. I would guess that most charity list service providers would not want to handle such a busy list. In most cases, a respectable mailing list server will do it's part of the email distribution in well under an hour. How long it takes before the email actually arrives at it's final destination is impossible to predict. Some subscribers receive their email via slow and or erratic connections. You may want to check the following list of providers and do some comparisons. A gent named Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. Some of these providers do not charge. Some charge very modest fees. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt If you provide mailing list host services and would like to be listed, contact Brian Edmonds . - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon May 11 10:54:38 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id KAA17964; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA17957 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from snoovler@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id KAA21574; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:45:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Mark Fletcher Message-Id: <199805111745.KAA21574@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Valu in list suppliers. In-Reply-To: <199805110800.BAA06086@honor.greatcircle.com> from List-Managers-Digest at "May 11, 98 01:00:24 am" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: olwen@ihug.co.nz Reply-To: markf@snoovler.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Someone on this list mentioned onelist.com as being the best of the > free list providers. I've heard it suggested that mail generally takes > about 8 hrs to be delivered. It this true? Can anyone suggest a good > value supplier? My obesity surgery support list has about 250 members > and up to 200 messages a day. > ONElist generally sends out email as soon as we receive it. 250 members with 200 messages a day is no problem. Hope this helps. Mark ONElist Team From list-managers-owner Thu May 14 16:08:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA06300; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA06290 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from panix.com (panix.com [166.84.1.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA09937 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dfl@localhost) by panix.com (8.8.5/8.8.8/PanixU1.4) id OAA06906 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Danny Lieberman Message-Id: <199805131808.OAA06906@panix.com> Subject: findmail To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:08:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It looks like someone has asked "findmail" to make an archive of my list, as I've received a subscribe request from them, which I've denied. Instead I wrote a brief letter to postmaster@findmail.com, but wondered if there is a better address for them, and to insure that my list is not listed there in any way. Thanks. > listsaver-of-ebikes@findmail.com requests that you approve the following: > subscribe ebikes listsaver-of-ebikes@findmail.com > -- Danny Lieberman dfl@panix.com From list-managers-owner Thu May 14 19:11:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12231; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA12223 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 May 1998 19:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA09798; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id SAA25536; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:06:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980514180651.A23636@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:06:51 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: List Managers Cc: carlp@vault.findmail.com, mcb@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: findmail Mail-Followup-To: List Managers , carlp@vault.findmail.com, mcb@greatcircle.com References: <199805131808.OAA06906@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805131808.OAA06906@panix.com>; from Danny Lieberman on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:08:57PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:08:57PM -0400, Danny Lieberman wrote: > It looks like someone has asked "findmail" to make an archive of my list, > as I've received a subscribe request from them, which I've denied. Instead > I wrote a brief letter to postmaster@findmail.com, but wondered if there is > a better address for them, and to insure that my list is not listed there > in any way. Try carlp@vault.findmail.com. If you are so inclined, make it clear to them that they have no business trying to set up a public archive of your list without asking for your permission first -- not like it made any impression on them the two or three times *I* told them that, but who knows, maybe the concept will finally sink in. The host that serves my lists (and dozens of others) finally ended up blocking access to all of its lists from findmail.com because of their repeated attempts to republish list content without first asking for permission. Damn shame, too, because Findmail has a half-decent archive interface -- if they had bothered to ask first instead of just subscribing and immediately trying to republish the content, I would likely have been happy to make them the official archive for the dozen or so music-related lists I run, but . . . (By the way, I don't know if you're aware of it, Michael, but they're also offering public archives of pretty much all of the greatcircle lists, including majordomo-users, majordomo-workers, firewalls, and this very list right here.) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Fri May 15 13:38:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA01462; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wordsmith.org (lrdc5.lrdc.pitt.edu [136.142.93.166]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA01454 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from anu@localhost) by wordsmith.org (8.8.7/1.2) id QAA26566 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:38:01 -0400 From: Anu Garg Message-Id: <199805152038.QAA26566@wordsmith.org> Subject: Listat 1.0 released To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:38:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk LISTAT = LIST + STAT Listat 1.0 is now released. It is a free, professional package to generate interesting statistics on mailing list demographics. Download it from http://www.wordsmith.org/anu/listat/index.html As always Listat is open-source, free software. -- Anu Garg anu@wordsmith.org http://www.wordsmith.org/anu From list-managers-owner Fri May 15 14:08:42 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA01905; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA01898 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01060 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04367 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:55:57 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: SPAM COMPLAINERS TOOL: IPW v1.2 released (web interface also available) X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:55:57 -0700 Message-ID: <4365.895265757@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have created a small utility program which can be a useful aid whenever you are attempting to find the ARIN/RIPE/APNIC registration record for a given IP address. In particular, this program, called `ipw' (IP whois) may be particularly useful when trying to find the E-mail addresses of the regis- tered owners/administrators of a given IP address which contains either the original source IP address of a given spam message or the IP address of some mail server through which a spam message has been relayed or the IP address of a spammed-for web site. Finding the correct E-mail address to send a complaint to which related to a given IP address used to be a rather time-consuming task, because you would often have to look at all three of the IP address registration data bases (i.e. ARIN, RIPE, APNIC) and/or you would have to perform multiple queries on the ARIN data base in order to get the complete record for just the specific IP address block of interest. The `ipw' utility greatly simplifies the task of finding the most relevant (i.e. smallest containing) IP address block registration record for a given IP address by automating the otherwise tedious search process. ipw will make queires on the ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC data bases, as necessary (and may perhaps make multiple queries in the case of the ARIN data base) in order to find the more relevant Ip address regis- tration record for the IP address you give it as a command line argument. (Note that the registration record, once found, will usually contain one or more E-mail addresses corresponding to the registered owner(s) of the IP address block in question, and complainst about spammish activities relating to that IP address block can and probably should be sent to those addresses.) ANSI/ISO C source code for the ipw.c program may be found in the directory: http://www.e-scrub.com/ipw/ along with a suitable Makefile for the program. (Note that the program is really only designed to run on UNIX, so if you want to port it to some other operating system, I will wish you luck but I will also tell you that you are basically on your own.) Following the initial release of the 1.0 version of ipw, many fatal bugs were found and fixed, and the current version number is 1.2. Marty Bower was kind enough to put put a nice friendly web- based interface to my `ipw' program, and it can be found at: http://mjhb.marina-del-rey.ca.us/cgi-bin/ipw.pl Please try it out. Both Marty and I believe that you will find it quite useful when trying to find appropriate E-mail addresses to send spam com- plaints to. One final note... Styles and methods of complaining about spam vary widely, however I think it is worth a minute or two to explain why this program in particular should be used by all persons who regularly complain about spam. The primary reason for using this program to find E-mail addresses to com- plain to is that it will help you to find some address to send complaints to where the recipients might actually give a damn about your complaint. Many people who complain about spam do so in a rather naive and misguided fashion. They get a spam from (for example) `mail.porno-king.com' or else they get a spam promoting the web site `www.porno-king.com' and they promptly proceed to send a spam complaint nastygram to . Well guess what folks? 9 times out of 10, *is* the spammer, and he will just throw your complaint into the bit-bucket, or worse, he will wait until late Fraday night when all of the system admini- strators have left for the weekend and then he will mailbomb the hell out of you in retaliation for you having had the audacity to complain about his spamming. The essence of intelligent spam complaining is to find someone who might actually behave responsibly when sent a spam complaint. Finding such people is actually rather easy. You just need to find someone who has more than a trivial/modest investment in his/her Internet resources. A spammer who has one little old Windoze box on one IP address and who has one domain name (e.g. porno-king.com) has almost no real investment in his setup and he can pull up his stakes and move on to greener pastures at a moment's notice. Not so for people who own entire IP address blocks of at least 256 addresses or more. These people tend to be the responsible ones and the ones who really don't like it when they find out that one of their customers is spamming. That is where the `ipw' utility comes in. It lets you find the E-mail address of the person who is responsible for the entire containing IP address block. Often, when the postmaster of the offending domain is unresponsive, the postmaster or registered contain address for the relevant IP address block *will* be responsive and *will* take action. So just to be on the safe side, I for one _always_ complain _both_ to the postmaster and registered contact addresses for the offending domain _and_ also to the postmaster and registered contact addresses for the IP address block which contains the IP address of the offending machine. Doing both gives me pretty good kill statistics, and I hope it will do so for you also. Two other notes... First, although ipw's job is really only to looking registration records for specific *IP addresses* it _will_ allow you to input a domain name as the search key. But don't be confused! When and if you do this, ipw will just do the equivalent of an `nslookup' on the domain name you give it (thus find- ing the corresponding IP address for that domain name) and then it will just do what it normally does, i.e. looking up the *IP address registration* for that IP address. Remember that there is a whole separate and parallel uni- verse of ``name oriented'' registration records (mostly stored in the Internic data base) that you can (and should) do lookups on also when trying to find places to complain about spam. A good place to do _these_ ``name oriented'' lookups is: http://www.allwhois.com/ Someday I hope to build something similar to the serach facility that is already available at www.allwhois.com (but with a simpler interface) but that is quite a ways off yet. My final note about the `ipw' utility is that in its current incarnation it makes no real efforts to tell you the exactly right place to send a complant, i.e. the place where you might have the greatest hope of getting a favorable response/outcome. In particular, there are still several big-time spamming companies on the net (e.g. Harris Marketing, Digital Intertainment, Ameriweb aka Linkus) that have their own IP address blocks and so if you do lookups using `ipw', the printed results may sometimes just show you the registration recoords for one of these annoying parasites. I hope to fix that in a later version of `ipw' but you will have to just struggle along for now and keep abrest of where and who the current well-known big-time spammers are. Aw heck... I just remembered one more important footnote about ipw. The output of ipw comes in two different formats... one format if the regis- tration records is found in the ARIN data base and a totally different format if the registration record is found in the RIPE or APNIC data bases. In the latter case, the records printed may show a whole lot of different E-mail addresses, *but* you will only be interested in the ones that appear on lines prefixed by the string "e-mail:". Those are the only ones that definitely belong to the people who own the relevant IP address block. Other E-mail addresses may appear in the registration record, but you should ignore those because they may just belong to whoever last modified the record in the data base, and that might have been someone unrelated to the actual owner of the IP address block in question. That's all. I hope you all make good use of this utility. Go yea forth and get those spammers! P.S. My sincere thanks to Marty Bower for putting together the web-based in- terface for ipw. That really makes it might more accessible for the general online public. From list-managers-owner Tue May 19 08:55:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA03702; Tue, 19 May 1998 08:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell2.tiac.net (shell2.tiac.net [199.0.65.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA03695 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 08:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mgold@localhost) by shell2.tiac.net (8.8.5/) with SMTP id LAA26216; Tue, 19 May 1998 11:56:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell2.tiac.net: mgold owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:56:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Mark Gold To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: mgold@tiac.net Subject: Host for a list? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I am new to this list. I apologize in advance if this is a FAQ question, but I can't seem to locate an answer. Q. Is there a list of potential host sites for a mailing list? I am planning to start a list related to Alternative Treatments for ADD/ADHD. I need a host site that is free (or unbelievable inexpensive), that allows the possibility to moderate the list if need be, and that has had a history of stability. I emailed the people at maelstrom.stjohns.edu, but I haven't heard back from them. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Best Wishes, - Mark mgold@tiac.net http://www.HolisticMed.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue May 19 12:09:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA06443; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netdirect.net.uk (zeus.netdirect.net.uk [195.7.224.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA06434 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 12:05:27 -0700 (PDT) From: merlin@valleys.ndirect.co.uk Received: from valleys.ndirect.co.uk (merlin@mail.valleys.ndirect.co.uk [195.99.165.238]) by zeus.netdirect.net.uk (8.8.5/8.6.6) with ESMTP id UAA10639; Tue, 19 May 1998 20:08:24 +0100 Received: (from merlin@localhost) by valleys.ndirect.co.uk (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02190; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:07:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199805192007.VAA02190@valleys.ndirect.co.uk> Subject: Re: Host for a list? To: mgold@tiac.net (Mark Gold) Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:07:46 +0100 (BST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Mark Gold" at May 19, 98 11:56:21 am Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mgold@tiac.net ... > I am new to this list. I apologize in advance if this is a FAQ question, > but I can't seem to locate an answer. > > Q. Is there a list of potential host sites for a mailing list? Get the doc. "Internet Mailing List Providers" http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.html From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 19:01:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id SAA01839; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA01570 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01774 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 12:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02939 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:03:25 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA23839 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:03:22 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805271903.OAA23839@celery.tssi.com> Subject: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:03:22 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This isn't a list management issue, but I think there is considerable expertise in the subject among the subscribers here and I'm not sure where else to ask it. Since upgrading to sendmail 8.8.8 a few weeks back I have been noting a LOT of rejected SMTP sessions because of invalid domains caught by the check_rule filter, which logs the site attempting the connection. As far as I can tell, all of these are UCE/spam. Here's the tally of rejected messages just SINCE MIDNIGHT; > > 77 abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca > 18 cduweb.cdrewu.edu > 72 ftp.senet.co.jp > 46 info.sssi.com > 18 outbound.Princeton.EDU > 10 relay.ibenet.it > 2 syse.senet.co.jp > 19 www.art-in.com Any suggestions as to what to do to 'encourage' these sites to fix their security problems would be appreciated. (And if there's a more specific forum for discussing this, please let me know.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 19:54:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA12171; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA06999 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.bit.net.au (atlas.bit.net.au [203.18.94.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18687 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (port093.bit.net.au [203.62.185.93]) by atlas.bit.net.au (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA15443 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:34:02 +1000 X-Recipient: Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980525233337.0104d2c4@bit.net.au> X-Sender: carcus@bit.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:33:37 +1000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Marcus Subject: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all I know that AOL have been trouble in the past, but it seems that my List is particularly inflicted with more problems than most with regards AOL users. I'd say about 10 to 15% of my subscribers are from AOL, and not a day goes by that one or more of these accounts has either a full mailbox, or has mail returned "service unavailable". I understand this means either AOL users don't read their mail too oftern (or AOL set their mailbox limit WAY too low), or that AOL mail servers are continuolly going down. I've stood by a policy whereby any AOL account that bounces is automatically removed (this I do manually) - on a partiularly busy post-day there are up to 150 posts, and faulty AOL accounts make the day a mess. Can ANYONE enlighten me on the best way to deal with AOL admin (ie what the hell is REALLY going on at their end)? Cheers Marcus Admin - Eternal Life: Jeff Buckley Mailing List From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 19:59:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA16469; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA16451 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16577; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:49 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA31659; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:47 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805280248.VAA31659@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? To: rfg@monkeys.com (Ronald F. Guilmette) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <5069.896322362@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at May 27, 98 07:26:02 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Don't bet on it. It sounds to me like you are maybe checking the validity > of the domain name given in the HELO SMTP command, but a lot of places > still have that misconfigured I think. I'm still getting acquainted with sendmail 8.8.8, but I followed the advice of my ISP's mail manager and got some good info off the web (from pointers I found at www.sendmail.org). Here's a sample of what shows up in my log file. My interpretation of this (which could easily be incorrect) is that the nodes at mcgill.ca and sssi.com are being relayed upon, and I'm guessing that the addresses which don't resolve are in the MAIL FROM: SMTP command. Am I right? Ron, would you please send me (or repost) the pointer to your lookup program? May 27 21:30:12 gw sendmail[16508]: VAA16508: ruleset=check_mail, arg1=, relay=abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca [132.206.252.4], reject=451 ... unresolvable host name 24360.com, see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18. May 27 21:30:12 gw sendmail[16508]: VAA16508: from=, size=0, class=0, pri=0, nrcpts=0, proto=SMTP, relay=abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca [132.206.252.4] May 27 21:33:19 gw sendmail[16513]: VAA16513: ruleset=check_mail, arg1=, relay=info.sssi.com [204.217.196.2], reject=451 ... unresolvable host name com.net, see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18. May 27 21:33:19 gw sendmail[16513]: VAA16513: from=, size=0, class=0, pri=0, nrcpts=0, proto=SMTP, relay=info.sssi.com [204.217.196.2] -- Mike Nolan PS. Is it just me or is greatcircle.com running slow today, it took nearly 6 hours for my first message to get delivered, I was worried I might have gotten bounced from the list due to some configuration problems that occurred when I switched net connections two weeks ago. From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 20:01:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA15513; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA02102 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 18:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub2.liv.ac.uk (mailhub2.liv.ac.uk [138.253.100.95]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA00476 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dir2.liv.ac.uk [138.253.252.15] by mailhub2.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #2) id 0yehSU-0004Hr-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 15:45:38 +0100 Received: (from qq11@localhost) by dir2.liv.ac.uk (8.8.7/ajt5) id PAA20810; Wed, 27 May 1998 15:45:34 +0100 (BST) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:45:33 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Thew X-Sender: qq11@dir2.liv.ac.uk To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Do www.liszt.com ever give up? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We ran some lists on a small box and these finished last Summer. Despite sending the following (and sending mail to the named id), the requests still continue. Are they on automatic pilot or something? -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Return-path: <> To: lisztlis@liszt.bluemarble.net From: postmaster@oss1.liv.ac.uk Cc: postmaster@oss1.liv.ac.uk Subject: Listserv no longer available on oss1.liv.ac.uk Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:10:48 +0100 The LISTSERV(TM) software no longer runs on this machine Try listserv@liverpool.ac.uk ---------- Original Mail ---------- >From lisztlis@liszt.bluemarble.net Tue May 26 01:10:48 1998 Received: from liszt.com ([204.89.253.30] helo=liszt.bluemarble.net) by oss1.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for listserv@oss1.liv.ac.uk id 0ye7KI-0003b4-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:10:47 +0100 Received: (from lisztlis@localhost) by liszt.bluemarble.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA28259; Mon, 25 May 1998 19:16:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:16:38 -0500 From: Liszt Query Robot Message-Id: <199805260016.TAA28259@liszt.bluemarble.net> To: listserv@oss1.liv.ac.uk Subject: Monthly Info Request for Liszt (http://www.liszt.com/) X-Contact: Scott Southwick (liszt@liszt.com) X-More-Info: http://www.liszt.com/about.html X-Ima: info-file-collecting robot info 2SM46 ----- End forwarded message ----- From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 20:06:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA14037; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA13820 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA27040; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA05071; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:26:02 -0700 To: nolan@tssi.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Subject: Re: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 27 May 1998 14:03:22 -0500. <199805271903.OAA23839@celery.tssi.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:26:02 -0700 Message-ID: <5069.896322362@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199805271903.OAA23839@celery.tssi.com>, you wrote: >This isn't a list management issue, but I think there is considerable >expertise in the subject among the subscribers here and I'm not sure where >else to ask it. > >Since upgrading to sendmail 8.8.8 a few weeks back I have been noting >a LOT of rejected SMTP sessions because of invalid domains caught by the >check_rule filter, which logs the site attempting the connection. As far >as I can tell, all of these are UCE/spam. Don't bet on it. It sounds to me like you are maybe checking the validity of the domain name given in the HELO SMTP command, but a lot of places still have that misconfigured I think. >Here's the tally of rejected messages just SINCE MIDNIGHT; >> >> 77 abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca >> 18 cduweb.cdrewu.edu >> 72 ftp.senet.co.jp >> 46 info.sssi.com >> 18 outbound.Princeton.EDU <======= >> 10 relay.ibenet.it <======= >> 2 syse.senet.co.jp >> 19 www.art-in.com The two that I have put arrows next to I recognize, because they have been hitting my own spam traps lately. The others I don't know about. >Any suggestions as to what to do to 'encourage' these sites to fix their >security problems would be appreciated. Umm.... may I suggest an ordinary kitchen cheese grater, inserted rectally? But seriously folks, the spammers themselves are doing a lot to smack many sysadmins out of their lethargy. It's kind of a bummer when you get all of your bandwidth stolen from you for a time and when you then also have to deal with the complainst that _you_ get because you are a moron who is still running an open relay in the current era. I don't know that there is a lot else that can be done. Find the admin addresses (using my ipw program, which I posted a pointer to here recently) and send them bitch-o-grams and tell them they are morons. It's about all you can do. The only other thing would suggest is to be sure to give them a pointer to: http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ which has a lot of instructions and help for closing relays. I'm mention right now also, that if you can find the people who are admin-ing the containing address block, you can tell them for me that I am now offering a free confidential open mail relays scanning service to help people find out where all of their remaining open relays are. I will only do this for author- ized network admins and the results are always kept confidential, but when it is done for a given IP address block, I send the list of open relay IP addresses to the relevant network admin(s) for further action... which hope- fully mean getting all of those damn relays closed. I have done this for several /16 blocks already, and the network admins I sent the results to were most appreciative. I think that this sort of thing needs to be done a LOT, mostly at the level of /16 blocks, until this huge open relays problem gets wiped out. We are still a long way from that. I hope to have the whole scan request process totally automated at some point so that authorized net admins can request the scans for themselves via a web page, but that will be later on. For now, people have to ask me for a scan via ordinary E-mail. >(And if there's a more specific >forum for discussing this, please let me know.) The SPAM-L mailing list deals with spam in general, and of course there is always news.admin.net-abuse.email, but that's kind of a zoo these days. Then there is the spamtools mailing list, where specific technical counter- measures to spam are discussed. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 20:57:09 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id UAA19236; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA19174 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03358 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id XAA21098; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA25329; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:13:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:13:26 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Alan Thew cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Do www.liszt.com ever give up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 May 1998, Alan Thew wrote: > We ran some lists on a small box and these finished last Summer. > Despite sending the following (and sending mail to the named id), > the requests still continue. Are they on automatic pilot or > something? > Subject: Monthly Info Request for Liszt (http://www.liszt.com/) > X-Contact: Scott Southwick (liszt@liszt.com) > X-More-Info: http://www.liszt.com/about.html Liszt uses an automated inquiry system. Have you tried the human contact address listed above? I've swapped a few emails with Scott. He's OK in my book. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 21:11:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA20426; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ayla.idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA20417 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grev.idyllmtn.com (kynn.bur.primenet.com [207.218.52.159]) by ayla.idyllmtn.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17338; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980527211257.00b018c0@mail.idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn-mlists@mail.idyllmtn.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:12:57 -0700 To: murr rhame From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Do www.liszt.com ever give up? Cc: Alan Thew , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:13 p.m. 05/27/98 -0400, murr rhame wrote: >Liszt uses an automated inquiry system. Have you tried the human >contact address listed above? I've swapped a few emails with Scott. >He's OK in my book. My assessment too. I have no qualms with Scott or Liszt, and I'm usually a rather prickly fellow who's easy to annoy. -- __ __ _ _ _ Mailing List Services | \/ | | (_)___| |_ ___ for the Internet Community | |\/| | | | / __| __/ __| http://www.mlists.com/ | | | | |___| \__ \ |_\__ \ (Free list hosting available!) |_| |_|_____|_|___/\__|___/ kynn@mlists.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 21:17:19 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA20396; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA20388 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id XAA22852 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:04:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805280404.XAA22852@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:05:00 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5/25/98 8:33 AM, Marcus wrote... >I know that AOL have been trouble in the past, but it seems that my List is >particularly inflicted with more problems than most with regards AOL users. That's possible. I rarely have a problem, but I don't run any massively high-volume lists. >I'd say about 10 to 15% of my subscribers are from AOL, and not a day goes >by that one or more of these accounts has either a full mailbox, or has >mail returned "service unavailable". Read the Service Unavailable bounces more closely. Do they refer to the person not accepting mail? That's something else, and is not AOL's fault, but the user's. >I understand this means either AOL >users don't read their mail too oftern (or AOL set their mailbox limit WAY >too low), An AOL mailbox holds 550 messages. That should be enough for most people. >or that AOL mail servers are continuolly going down. They don't. There are occasions, but not to the tune that you're referring to. >[snip] >Can ANYONE enlighten me on the best way to deal with AOL admin (ie what the >hell is REALLY going on at their end)? AOL knows where its problems are, when it has them, and their tech people do their best. Keep in mind that it's a huge service, dealing with more mail than any other system. That means there are going to be problems. But I suspect that the problems you're encountering are not technical problems, but careless users blocking their mail to avoid UCE. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 21:41:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA21646; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21630 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.252.88.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.252.88.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09969; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:32:47 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805280404.XAA22852@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 4.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:40:33 -0400 To: Adam Bailey , From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 0:05 -0400 5/28/98, Adam Bailey sent everyone: >>I understand this means either AOL >>users don't read their mail too oftern (or AOL set their mailbox limit WAY >>too low), > >An AOL mailbox holds 550 messages. Why does this number strike me as amusing (in an RFC-821-kinda way)? ;-) __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Boy & His Sabre: vince@humournet.com Stop Internet Spam! Vince's Interior Decorating Tip #37 (collect the whole series!): "If it's not spaghetti, it doesn't belong on the wall." From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 21:47:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA21490; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21483 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuqui2@localhost) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA30288 ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:29:58 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980525233337.0104d2c4@bit.net.au> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:27:00 -0700 To: Marcus , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:33 AM -0700 5/25/98, Marcus wrote: > I'd say about 10 to 15% of my subscribers are from AOL, and not a day goes > by that one or more of these accounts has either a full mailbox, or has > mail returned "service unavailable". I almost never see service unavailable messages, and my percentage of AOL users is as high or higher than yours. > Can ANYONE enlighten me on the best way to deal with AOL admin (ie what the > hell is REALLY going on at their end)? I don't have any problems with AOL. things seem pretty normal. I have to wonder about someone willing to so easily jettison 15% of their user base because the admin processing is a hassle. Isn't it better to find better or more efficient ways to handle the administration? It sounds like AOL isn't the problem, but the administration aspects. I'd focus on how to improve those, myself. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 21:58:04 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA22103; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postal.magibox.net (postal.magibox.net [206.26.142.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA22004 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.28.74.76] (demeter-33.magibox.net [206.28.74.97]) by postal.magibox.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.0.Beta5) with ESMTP id XAA08734 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:42:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: bighouse@mail.magibox.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805280404.XAA22852@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:49:33 -0500 To: From: Ken Hooper Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >An AOL mailbox holds 550 messages. That should be enough for most people. I think it is absurdly small, but AOL never asks me for my opinion. 8) Back when AOL was taking up to 48 hours to produce an error message I made it clear to my AOLers that I would delete them on the first "mailbox full" error. Then when it was taking four days for AOl to produce an error message I told them that if they let their mailboxes fill up I would killfile them. Actually I was bluffing but they cleaned their mailboxes out. I don't think the poster knows how good he has it, AOL has improved its mail service radically. It was really no fun seeing that first error message and realizing there were 350 more already in the pipeline I'd have to download... --Ken type2.com webmaster "If stupidity hurt like a toothache people might do something about it." --Greg Swann From list-managers-owner Wed May 27 23:26:35 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA24781; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA24774 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from chuqui2@localhost) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16374 ; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:25:57 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199805280404.XAA22852@quilla.tezcat.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:23:43 -0700 To: Ken Hooper , From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think it is absurdly small, but AOL never asks me for my opinion. 8) Back > when AOL was taking up to 48 hours to produce an error message I made it > clear to my AOLers that I would delete them on the first "mailbox full" > error. Why? You're only making more work for yourself, and creating a problem that doesn't really exist. And honking off your users for no good reason. FWIW, when Brad talked about this in the past, he pointed out that upgrading the user mailbox to be larger has some rather significant disk issues for AOL. We're talking about hundreds of gigabytes of extra disk to handle their user base. they have to make some technical tradeoffs here -- and where on *my* site upping quotes means calling APS for a new 9 gig disk to plug into the SCSI array, for AOL, it means building a new computer building and filling it with lots of disks. Andcomputers. And staffers. And... Those of us who drive the kind of boat you can haul on a trailer behind the Suburban just can't understand how different piloting an aircraft carrier is, and AOL is an aircraft carrier... > I don't think the poster knows how good he has it, AOL has improved its > mail service radically. Yup. they're the least of my problems. I know, for instance, that when I get a "user unknown" that user really won't come back three days later. I wish most of teh net were that reliable. I don't understand why people get so upset about bounce messages that they're willing to hack apart their subscriber base because of it. If administrating lists makes you that crazy, you're in the wrong business. Imagine if a church told its members that when they called them on the phone to ask about the next rummage sale and got voicemail instead of a real person, they'd throw them out of the church. it's shortsighted and silly. the mailing list isn't there to be convenient for the admin. It's there to be useful to the users. rather than focus anger and whatever at AOL (which is at best a symptom of a bigger problem, and that problem is simple: handling bounce mail is not fun, boring, repetitive, never ends, and can eat up huge amounts of time -- but that's not AOL's fault. It's teh simple fact that mail addresses go stale and mail servers ALL OVER the net can be flakey as all get out, and AOL gets blamed because they tend to be bigger than anyone else, not because they're worse. That Chris Craft gets swamped by the wake of the aircraft carrier, but the aircraft carrier isn't the only guy churning out wakes. and unlike a LOT of sites, AOL works hard to minimize its wake and not run over the rest of us small boats. end digression) -- focus on the problem. In the "money where your mouth is" world, I'll note I run close to 200 lists now, and have a subscriber base of about 100,000 unique addresses now (just under, but growing at a net of +350-400 a day). I handle all but a tiny amount of the bounce mail for all of that, with what's an enhanced manual system (I have a bounce processor in design for a summer project...). I have bounce mail issues most folks on this list can't conceive of. I've come back from long weekends to 20 megabytes of mail to look through. Such fun.... so here's a few hints from the trenches you might find more useful than burning effigies of strawmen that aren't really to blame in the first place. First thing to figure out: bounce mail isn't something to be taken personally. It's a fact of life. I don't like paying bills, either, but I don't threaten my credit card companies because they send me bills... My philosophy is pretty simple -- I want to get dead email addresses off my list as fast as reasonable, while minimizing "false positives". The latter is a lot more important now that you have more and more spamblocking causing intermittent outages, so you need to make sure a dead address is really dead. Some sites make this a real adventure. First thing I do is run all error mail through a series of procmail rules. These rules do a few things -- one important one is that it checks the bounce address to see if it's already on my list of "bounced" addresses. If I've already nuked the address (and nuked addresses go on a special list for a few days to warn them of this if they come alive again, so the subscriptions aren't blackholed on them....), I don't CARE if I get more bounces, so I throw them out. Second, I rewrite the SUBJECT line of the error mail and encode it with the email address and the list it bounced on. I then mail it to a special error mailbox that keeps it out of my normal mail. (digression again. When I've talked to other list folks about bounce hassles in the past, many are more frustrated that the bounce mail gets in the way of their "real" mail than anything else. So use multiple mailboxes and/or mail filtering to keep it out of sight until you want to deal with it. don't get mad, get crafty.) I download it all, and filter mail into special error mailboxes. right now, I use five (one for digests, one for non-digests, and three for large mail lists I process separate from the other mail. They're split this way because each set is handled consistently within itself and I don't need to do as much thinking trying to keep things straight. The filtering does it for me...). Eudora lets me sort them by subject (actually, I sort by subject, sub-sorted by date), and since I encoded the Subject line, I can tell at a glance what addresses are bouncing and how often. It's then a matter of determining which ones are "dead", unsubscribing them, and deleting that set of mail from the folder, and moving on. when I'm done, I delete old mail -- I keep a rolling record of the previous four days. Generally speaking, for a mail address to be "dead" I want it to be bouncing for three days in a row. So I resort the folder by date, delete the stuff older than four days, and forget about it. Andsince I've put the information I need to make decisions in the subject line, I don't have to OPEN mail and read it. I don't care WHY it bounces, only that it is -- and that it does so over a period of time. I have very, very few false positives, but I don't have huge amounts of mail bouncing, either (well, in comparison to what happens when I stop processing stuff for a week or so...). I generally have ~2000 or so bounce messages in my queues at any time. I process stuff daily (although I'm going to try three times a week soon. I think it'll be fine), in an hour to 90 minutes. About half of that time is spent handling the stuff my mail processing can't parse, which is actually about 20% of the bounces. Oh, one other thing my procmail stuff does -- if there are bouncing addresses that I can't track down (usa.net is horrible about this, since they don't encode ANY useful identifying info before forwarding stuff), my procmail scripts throw THOSe bounces out, too. I do my best to find the right address to unsuscribe, but if sites won't cooperate, I don't worry about it too much (and I don't waste my time going to admins on a case by case basis -- not worth my time). Instead, every few months I do an address validation probe, and dump these bogus bounces out during that phase all at once. The trick, folks, is not to get upset because sites send bounce messages. It's to make bounce processing less onerous. It ain't AOL's fault here -- they're noticable because they're big, but they're one of THE MOST stable and reliable e-mail sites out there. Period. I'd say 15-25% of my 100,000 addresses are AOL addresses -- and they're the least of my email problems. If you're like me, you hate cleaning the bathroom -- but that doesn't mean you kick someone out of the house because they used it and forgot to wipe the sink after washing their hands.... Cleaning the bathroom is necessary, so either find ways to make it faster and less annoying, or hire a maid (or both!). but don't get honked at the users of the bathroom... After all, that's why it's there, no? -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 00:12:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA25655; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA25647 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7557 invoked by uid 10086); 28 May 1998 07:06:57 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 02:06:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Ray Jones To: Vince Sabio cc: Adam Bailey , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 28 May 1998, Vince Sabio wrote: > >An AOL mailbox holds 550 messages. > > Why does this number strike me as amusing (in an RFC-821-kinda way)? Isn't "550" "user unkown?" (grin) -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 00:26:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA25397; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wolfgang.proimages.com (www.proimages.com [207.178.128.68]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA25390 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from voicemail.proimages.com [207.178.200.15] by wolfgang.proimages.com with smtp (Mail Server 2.0#7) id 0yewaL-0005bH-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:54:46 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980527235645.00ae5e5c@pyrotechnics.org> X-Sender: keath@pyrotechnics.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:56:56 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: keath Subject: error returned Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i'm running Majordomo on Exim mailer my list users are getting a error when they send mail to the list it reads; >From: Mail Delivery System >To: sean@xxxxxx.com >Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender >Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:32:09 -0700 > >This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. > >A message that you sent could not be delivered to all of its recipients. The >following address(es) failed: > > wpa-digestify@xxxxxxx.com: > generated |/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l wpa-digest: > return message generated > >The following text was generated during the delivery attempt: > >------ |/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l wpa-digest ------ > >Receiving 1 thanks, Keath ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unknown Message ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 00:42:02 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA26534; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA26513 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (segfault.monkeys.com [204.119.242.200]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08964; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA13326; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:38:46 -0700 To: nolan@tssi.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:46 -0500. <199805280248.VAA31659@celery.tssi.com> X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:38:46 -0700 Message-ID: <13324.896341126@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199805280248.VAA31659@celery.tssi.com>, nolan@tssi.com wrote: >Here's a sample of what shows up in my log file. My interpretation of >this (which could easily be incorrect) is that the nodes at mcgill.ca and >sssi.com are being relayed upon, and I'm guessing that the addresses which >don't resolve are in the MAIL FROM: SMTP command. Am I right? Most probably, yes. A name like `24360.com' is usually quite indicative of relayed spam. >Ron, would you please send me (or repost) the pointer to your lookup >program? The source is available at: http://www.e-scrub.com/ipw/ or you can use the web interface at: http://mjhb.marina-del-rey.ca.us/cgi-bin/ipw.pl -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 02:12:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA00176; Thu, 28 May 1998 01:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pcmail.liv.ac.uk (pcmail.liv.ac.uk [138.253.252.13]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA00148 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 01:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from march.dyn.ml.org [138.253.134.30] by pcmail.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #2) id 0yeyId-0005Ql-00; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:44:36 +0100 Received: from qq11 by march.dyn.ml.org with local (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yeyGA-0000Ft-00; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:42:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 09:42:01 +0100 (BST) From: Alan Thew X-Sender: qq11@march To: murr rhame cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Do www.liszt.com ever give up? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My point was that I _had_ tried the human contact address , with no effect. It does not make their company look very professional IMO, if they cannot handle bounces from <> which is what my auto responder generates. -- Alan Thew On Wed, 27 May 1998, murr rhame wrote: > On Wed, 27 May 1998, Alan Thew wrote: > > > We ran some lists on a small box and these finished last Summer. > > Despite sending the following (and sending mail to the named id), > > the requests still continue. Are they on automatic pilot or > > something? > > > Subject: Monthly Info Request for Liszt (http://www.liszt.com/) > > X-Contact: Scott Southwick (liszt@liszt.com) > > X-More-Info: http://www.liszt.com/about.html > > Liszt uses an automated inquiry system. Have you tried the human > contact address listed above? I've swapped a few emails with Scott. > He's OK in my book. > > - murr - > From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 08:26:59 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id IAA09215; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA09208 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id KAA18708 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:22:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805281522.KAA18708@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:23:12 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5/27/98 11:49 PM, Ken Hooper wrote... >>An AOL mailbox holds 550 messages. That should be enough for most people. > >I think it is absurdly small, but AOL never asks me for my opinion. I'm obviously not the average user, since I get over one hundred messages a day, but I also am online most of the day so it never has a chance to fill up. But I simply cannot imagine that any average user's mailbox can fill up like that unless they're on a lot of high-volume mailing lists, or they don't check their mail even once a week. Regardless, keep in mind just how big AOL is. As Chuq alluded to, AOL already has to find space to store a massive amount of data. 550 may not be generous, but I think it's reasonable. Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an extra 50 5k messages. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 09:11:43 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA10712; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10705 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id KAA19219; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:07:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980528100713.A18624@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:07:13 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <199805281522.KAA18708@quilla.tezcat.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805281522.KAA18708@quilla.tezcat.com>; from Adam Bailey on Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: > Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL > mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to > increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages > X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members > (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an > extra 50 5k messages. Wow, a whole $200 worth of disk. I can see why AOL wouldn't want to make that kind of investment. :-) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 09:26:54 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA11076; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA11056 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) id LAA22589 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199805281623.LAA22589@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? To: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:23:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <19980528100713.A18624@swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at May 28, 98 10:07:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > On Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: > > > Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL > > mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to > > increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages > > X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members > > (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an > > extra 50 5k messages. > > Wow, a whole $200 worth of disk. I can see why AOL wouldn't want to make that > kind of investment. :-) > I think you missed a factor of 1,000. it is 3.6 terabytes, or 3600 gigabytes. I don't think you would have to spend $200,000 to get that much, but it is not a trivial amount of money for a very small increment. -phil > -- > ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) > ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists > -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 09:42:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA11201; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA11193 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id LAA22592 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:26:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805281626.LAA22592@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:27:04 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5/28/98 11:07 AM, Lazlo Nibble wrote... >On Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: > >> Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL >> mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to >> increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages >> X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members >> (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an >> extra 50 5k messages. > >Wow, a whole $200 worth of disk. I can see why AOL wouldn't want to make >that kind of investment. :-) 1. I was just pointing out how a relatively small change can add up. 600 messages is no better than 550 messages (if you have a problem with 550, which I don't). 2. You're assuming that AOL can just hook any old IDE/SCSI drive into one of their stratus mainframes. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 09:57:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id JAA11802; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA11793 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23026 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:44:39 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA12109 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:44:37 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805281644.LAA12109@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:44:37 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > On Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: > > > Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL > > mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to > > increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages > > X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members > > (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an > > extra 50 5k messages. > > Wow, a whole $200 worth of disk. I can see why AOL wouldn't want to make that > kind of investment. :-) I think Adam's math skills need a refresher course. -) 250K * 12M * 1.2 = 3,600,000 MILLION bytes, or 3.6 terabytes. Anybody willing to sell me that for $200? And that doesn't take into account mirrors or other online data redundancy measures (such as RAID), directory space, indexes, backup devices, etc. And for those who haven't done anything like it, adding a huge hunk of disk space isn't just as simple as plugging it in, selected blocks of data (users or entire file stuctures) would need to be transferred to the new disk areas, without shutting down the system or throwing users offline. As Chuq points out, running AOL isn't quite like running your local ISP or administering a class C network. I still have more problems with worldnet subscribers than AOL, though webtv is starting to gain on both of them. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu May 28 11:12:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA13878; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA13870 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [206.230.56.44] (adamb.tezcat.com [206.230.56.44]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id NAA28546 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 13:07:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805281807.NAA28546@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? (fwd) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:07:31 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: "List Managers" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5/28/98 11:44 AM, Mike Nolan wrote... >Lazlo Nibble wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 28, 1998 at 10:23:12AM -0500, Adam Bailey wrote: >> >> > Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL >> > mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to >> > increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages >> > X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members >> > (1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an >> > extra 50 5k messages. >> >> Wow, a whole $200 worth of disk. I can see why AOL wouldn't want to make >> that kind of investment. :-) > >I think Adam's math skills need a refresher course. -) > >250K * 12M * 1.2 = 3,600,000 MILLION bytes, or 3.6 terabytes. Anybody >willing to sell me that for $200? Ooops, you're right. I think I counted 250k as 250 bytes when I was doing the math. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Do not take life too seriously; adamb@tezcat.com | you will never get out of it alive." adamkb@aol.com | - Elbert Hubbard Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 11:11:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id LAA03490; Fri, 29 May 1998 11:04:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA03483 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 11:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:04:41 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:04:41 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199805280404.XAA22852@quilla.tezcat.com> from "Adam Bailey" at May 27, 98 11:05:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Bailey suggested to , | But I suspect that the problems you're encountering are not technical | problems, but careless users blocking their mail to avoid UCE. And careless users who lose interest in their email and let it pile up, and careless users who change their screen names but don't update their list subscriptions, and careless users who don't bother paying their bills and get their AOL service cut off ... ... and the offspring of careless users who get persuaded that Internet email is the source of all UCE and all viruses, block it for their children's screen names, and [in the further belief that Princess and Junior have never received mail from outside AOL and don't know that it exists and won't miss it] don't say anything to their descendants, who then keep sending unanswera- ble mail to listadmins demanding to know why they don't get the list any more. Most (with one glaring exception) of AOL's technical problems with email are long since fixed. From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 23:39:14 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12780; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA12770 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from koobera.math.uic.edu (koobera.math.uic.edu [131.193.178.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA14500 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21234 invoked by uid 666); 28 May 1998 18:28:23 -0000 Date: 28 May 1998 18:28:23 -0000 Message-ID: <19980528182823.21232.qmail@cr.yp.to> Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "D. J. Bernstein" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? (fwd) References: <199805281644.LAA12109@celery.tssi.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > * 12M You seriously believe that AOL has set aside 40 terabytes for mailboxes? Or that more than a tiny percentage of AOL's subscribers are affected by the 550-message limit? > And that doesn't take into account mirrors or other online data redundancy > measures (such as RAID), directory space, indexes, backup devices, etc. You seriously believe that the cost of a reliable 100-terabyte disk farm would be troublesome for a ten-million-subscriber ISP? ---Dan 50000 new aliases in 6 seconds. http://pobox.com/~djb/fastforward.html From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 23:41:30 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12733; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA12725 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polya.mts.jhu.edu (polya.mts.jhu.edu [128.220.17.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10616 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by polya.mts.jhu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA05427; Thu, 28 May 1998 12:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805281601.MAA05427@polya.mts.jhu.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: polya.mts.jhu.edu: bogstad@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: Adam Bailey cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL: more trouble than they're worth?? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 May 1998 10:23:12 CDT." <199805281522.KAA18708@quilla.tezcat.com> From: Bill Bogstad Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:01:02 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >[Adam calculates cost of AOL increasing message space] > >Let's say the average email is 5k. I did a random sampling in my AOL >mailbox, and it seemed to work out to that. And let's say we want to >increase that absurdly small 550 to 600, a minor improvement. 50 messages >X 5k = 250k * (12,000,000 members * 1.2 average screen names per members >(1997) = 14,400,000) = 3,525,000,000. That's 3.5 gigabytes for just an >extra 50 5k messages. Yup and at today's prices that 3.5 gigabytes of disk space goes for ~~$500 (or less). Yes, there are lots of other charges involved then just the raw price of the disk space; but it's not clear that should more then double the price. I wonder about the 5K bytes per message number though. With the growth in the use of MIME, I can see people mailing very large messages Does AOL put a limit on the SIZE of each message? Can the Warez people mail each other copies of Office 98? Bill Bogstad bogstad@pobox.com From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 23:43:08 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12433; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA12423 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA04531; Thu, 21 May 1998 15:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id QAA17796; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:52:06 -0600 (MDT) Received: from findmail.com (vault.findmail.com [209.185.96.136]) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) with SMTP id GAA14922 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 06:38:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: (qmail 28640 invoked by uid 7770); 15 May 1998 08:05:51 -0000 Received: from shassan.vip.best.com (HELO carlp2) (206.184.204.5) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; 15 May 1998 08:05:51 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980515010803.031205b0@vault.findmail.com> X-Sender: carlp@vault.findmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 01:08:03 -0700 To: Lazlo Nibble , mcb@greatcircle.com From: Carl Page Subject: Re: findmail In-Reply-To: <19980514180651.A23636@swcp.com> References: <199805131808.OAA06906@panix.com> <199805131808.OAA06906@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for informing us of the concern. We are careful to always subscribe to lists under the name listsaver-of-@findmail.com which is the best way to contact the list manager in advance to request permission. It is an intentionally obvious name. There is litte more we can do without being accused of spamming the list or the list managers. To avoid lists being archived, the best bet is to use the industry standard tag all responsible archive sites obey, X-NO-ARCHIVE: Yes. We search for this in the info file, and on each list messages themselves, as well as for words like "private" in the info file. We also make a practice of reviewing lists THAT HAVE TRAFFIC for appropriateness and sending an extra message. I have fallen behind in this lately. Most suggested lists are not active so it would be a big waste of everyone's time to inquire about them. In any case we are always willing to delete archives at the managers request, and we allow message posters to delete their postings automatically even once they are in the archives, using the personal message removal systmem. These days we aren't very interested in providing archives of lists we don't host for free since we now have free list hosting which makes a lot more sense to us. We have never made money off of public list archiving. But it is a useful public service and brings us some good will. Please be sure to let me know what list it is you don't want archived- I'll mark it banned so we don't subscribe again. Mail to postmaster is for mail related problems. Mail to abuse@findmail.com or comments@findmail.com gets quicker service. Carl (Feel free to forward this message as a followup to the list.) From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 23:45:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12676; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA12668 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux.home.interlinx.bc.ca (a1a79359.sympatico.bconnected.net [209.53.4.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA20449 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by linux.home.interlinx.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id VAA29844; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:08:03 -0700 Received: from bmurrell.sympatico.bconnected.net(209.53.4.246) by a1a79359.sympatico.bconnected.net via smap (V2.0) id xma029842; Wed, 27 May 98 21:07:54 -0700 Received: (from brian@localhost) by pc.home.interlinx.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11850; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:07:52 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199805280407.VAA11850@pc.home.interlinx.bc.ca> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:07:52 -0700 (PDT) To: nolan@tssi.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? In-Reply-To: <199805271903.OAA23839@celery.tssi.com> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980323-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Information: SMAP 2.0+anti-spam, anti-relay hacks by Brian J. Murrell Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Mike Nolan on scroll <199805271903.OAA23839@celery.tssi.com> > > Any suggestions as to what to do to 'encourage' these sites to fix > their > security problems would be appreciated. (And if there's a more > specific > forum for discussing this, please let me know.) The MAPS RBL http://maps.vix.com/rbl is carrying a lot of weight these days. A threat to be put on it seems to have some effect on some of these folks. Let me first say that in a lot of cases, all that is needed is education. The remote postmasters may not know they are being relayed off of. They may know, but may not know what they can do about it. You first course of action should be to bring this problem to the attention of the postmaster at the site. Be sure to include resources as to what/how this can be stopped. If the remote postmaster ignores you or decides that he does not want to fix the problemm, the his server(s)/network(s) are candidates for the RBL. You can send a "nomination" to the MAPS folks regarding the open relay. Instructions on that can be found at http://maps.vix.com/rbl/reporting.html. I will warn you right now though. The MAPS team expects to you take reasonable measures to contact the postmaster of the offending relay. That does not mean 1 e-mail. It means several. It may mean trying to phone him if your e-mails go unanswered. The RBL is not a punitive device. It is a device to be used to protect our networks from spammers and those apathetic to the theft of resources due to spam and third-party relay. Good luck. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@interlinx.bc.ca InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Fri May 29 23:47:23 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA12634; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA12624 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.net-shopper.co.uk (mail.net-shopper.co.uk [194.205.1.152]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA17384 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.net-shopper.co.uk (mail.net-shopper.co.uk [194.205.1.152]) by mail.net-shopper.co.uk (NTMail 4.00.0008/*3GTFQ.KS:WN{) with ESMTP id dpiilaaa for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 04:04:29 +0100 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by mail.net-shopper.co.uk (NTMail 4.00.0008/*3GTFQ.KS:WN{) with ESMTP id cpiilaaa for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 04:04:29 +0100 Received: from honor.greatcircle.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: honor.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.44]) id QQergm04230; Wed, 27 May 1998 23:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA16469; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA16451 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16577; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:49 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA31659; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:47 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199805280248.VAA31659@celery.tssi.com> Subject: [smtp] Re: What to do about site that indiscriminatly relay? To: Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:48:46 -0500 (CDT) Cc: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <5069.896322362@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at May 27, 98 07:26:02 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald F. Guilmette wrote: > Don't bet on it. It sounds to me like you are maybe checking the validity > of the domain name given in the HELO SMTP command, but a lot of places > still have that misconfigured I think. I'm still getting acquainted with sendmail 8.8.8, but I followed the advice of my ISP's mail manager and got some good info off the web (from pointers I found at www.sendmail.org). Here's a sample of what shows up in my log file. My interpretation of this (which could easily be incorrect) is that the nodes at mcgill.ca and sssi.com are being relayed upon, and I'm guessing that the addresses which don't resolve are in the MAIL FROM: SMTP command. Am I right? Ron, would you please send me (or repost) the pointer to your lookup program? May 27 21:30:12 gw sendmail[16508]: VAA16508: ruleset=check_mail, arg1=, relay=abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca [132.206.252.4], reject=451 ... unresolvable host name 24360.com, see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18. May 27 21:30:12 gw sendmail[16508]: VAA16508: from=, size=0, class=0, pri=0, nrcpts=0, proto=SMTP, relay=abraham.ugrad.physics.mcgill.ca [132.206.252.4] May 27 21:33:19 gw sendmail[16513]: VAA16513: ruleset=check_mail, arg1=, relay=info.sssi.com [204.217.196.2], reject=451 ... unresolvable host name com.net, see RFC 1123, sections 5.2.2 and 5.2.18. May 27 21:33:19 gw sendmail[16513]: VAA16513: from=, size=0, class=0, pri=0, nrcpts=0, proto=SMTP, relay=info.sssi.com [204.217.196.2] -- Mike Nolan PS. Is it just me or is greatcircle.com running slow today, it took nearly 6 hours for my first message to get delivered, I was worried I might have gotten bounced from the list due to some configuration problems that occurred when I switched net connections two weeks ago. From list-managers-owner Sat May 30 17:16:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03036; Sat, 30 May 1998 17:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id RAA03028 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 30 May 1998 17:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA18594 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) id AAA15166; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 00:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805300734.AAA15166@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: carlp@findmail.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <3.0.5.32.19980515010803.031205b0@vault.findmail.com> (message from Carl Page on Fri, 15 May 1998 01:08:03 -0700) Subject: Re: findmail Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 01:08:03 -0700 From: Carl Page Thanks for informing us of the concern. We are careful to always subscribe to lists under the name listsaver-of-@findmail.com which is the best way to contact the list manager in advance to request permission. It is an intentionally obvious name. There is litte more we can do without being accused of spamming the list or the list managers. Oh no no no...you have it backwards. You must ask for permission before archiving. Not subscribe and remove the list later if the list owner notices. Yes, I get cc'd on subscribe requests. But if I was running a very large list, I probably wouldn't bother. It is not okay to do something and then assume it's alright because you don't get feedback. It is not spam to write a personalized note saying, "we would like to archive your mailing list for you. Here are the details. Please say yes or no (lack of an answer always means no)." It is spam if you send the same note to 100's of listowners indiscriminately. If you can take the time and effort to subscribe to each list indivudually, you can take the time and effort to write each listowner a note (yes, a form letter for most of it is okay). If you're using special software to mass subscribe to many groups, this is a bad thing in and of itself and should stop. To avoid lists being archived, the best bet is to use the industry standard tag all responsible archive sites obey, X-NO-ARCHIVE: Yes. We search for this in the info file, and on each list messages themselves, as well as for words like "private" in the info file. People do not expect email to be archived unless it is on a public list and the listowner announces it as a service. No one should have to add in an extra header to all their email (often done by hand) or even all their mailing list traffic. It is your job, as a self-described "resonsible archive site," to acquire permission in advance. These days we aren't very interested in providing archives of lists we don't host for free since we now have free list hosting which makes a lot more sense to us. Glad to hear it. Please be sure to let me know what list it is you don't want archived- I'll mark it banned so we don't subscribe again. Mail to postmaster is for mail related problems. Mail to abuse@findmail.com or comments@findmail.com gets quicker service. No. I will not go out of my way to tell you not to do something you should not have done in the first place. You are far from the only place who archives mailing list traffic. As a listowner, am I responsible for hunting them all down? If I miss one, does that mean I gave permission for archiving? I run 3 lists. To make it easier for you, just ban *@lists.best.com. Unless of course someone specifically gives you permission. I'm really surprised at your attitude. I used to defend you guys. My memory of findmail is that, a couple of years ago, your company wrote me and asked if they could archive my list. I said no and that was the end of it. That is the way it should be and to change it is indefensible. I do appreciate your posting here though...even knowing you would likely get flamed for it. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@best.com http://www.best.com/~cnorman _________________________ Owner of the Immune Lists http://www.best.com/~immune From list-managers-owner Sun May 31 07:11:24 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA15362; Sun, 31 May 1998 07:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA15355 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 07:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newmicronpc (slip129-37-126-176.ca.us.ibm.net [129.37.126.176]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id IAA22038; Sun, 31 May 1998 08:08:23 -0600 (MDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: findmail Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:12:23 -0400 Message-ID: <000101bd8c9e$21a49ec0$b07e2581@newmicronpc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199805310800.BAA09158@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk If I remember correctly, Findmail does not go out and actively or automatically look for external mailing lists to archive, but they do provide a Web interface where individual USERS can enter the name of a mailing list and ask that it be archived. If one of your mailing lists appears on Findmail, it's probably because some interested subscriber put it there. I agree that it would be much nicer if the result of a user request for an external archive was an email sent to the owner of the list in question saying, "User
has requested that we archive your list . If this is OK, please reply to this email with the word "yes" in the message body; any other response, or no response, will result in no archiving." Carl Page's suggestion, that concerned listowners start using X-No-Archive all over the place, has one enormous problem, which is that LEGITIMATE archives for your list may exist, with access rights and format of your choosing; this "industry standard" cuts both ways. Personally, I would watch (using Procmail) for subscribes from findmail.com, and kick them off immediately, and then send that "listsaver-of-" address just ONE message for its "archive" saying: THIS IS NOT THE REAL ARCHIVE. This was created without permission. Tell Findmail to stop operating this way." A wave of those ought to generate enough user feedback to get them to think about the issue. :)