From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 1 12:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id MAA07302; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.18.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA07295 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [137.78.144.194] (lemond.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.144.194]) by eis-msg-014.jpl.nasa.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14080 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:56:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Header: Inspected by #12 Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:00:26 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kyle Subject: POP mail security problem Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BACKGROUND Buffer overrun vulnerabilities have been discovered in the Qpopper POP server for UNIX from Qualcomm, Inc. SYSTEMS AFFECTED All systems running Qpopper versions prior to 2.51. PROBLEM Several buffer overrun vulnerabilities have been discovered in the Qpopper POP3 server freely available from Qualcomm, Inc. Exploit code has been released to the Internet, and scans for the vulnerability have been detected on NASA systems. As of now, it appears that the vulnerability is not system-specific, and exploit code for several architectures has been released. RECOMMENDED ACTIONS Administrators should disable access to Qpopper, and upgrade to version 2.51, released July 1, 1998. The updated source code is available from: ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/eudora/servers/unix/popper/qpopper2.51.tar.Z Kyle kyle@mgsw3.jpl.nasa.gov From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 1 16:47:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA10107; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA10099 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 16:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uucphost.mcs.net (uucp@Uucp1.mcs.net [192.160.127.93]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id SAA22730; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:33:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by uucphost.mcs.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18780; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:33:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from david (david [10.168.100.1]) by midrange.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA13007; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 18:17:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199807012317.SAA13007@midrange.com> X-Sender: david@midrange X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 18:12:14 -0500 To: Kyle From: David Gibbs Subject: Re: POP mail security problem Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:00 PM 7/1/98 , Kyle wrote: >RECOMMENDED ACTIONS > Administrators should disable access to Qpopper, and upgrade to > version 2.51, released July 1, 1998. The updated source code is > available from: > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/eudora/servers/unix/popper/qpopper2.51.tar.Z Interesting, 2.51 isn't available... but 2.52 is. :) david -- | Internet: david@midrange.com | WWW: http://www.midrange.com/david | | ... A man can move mountains, a world can be turned, | and the greatest of distances easily spanned, | When the strength that's invested in making a fist | is transformed into shaking a hand. | | - DMRoth | | Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 2 23:49:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01811; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01801 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA08083 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:28:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (tananda.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.64]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id PAA25665; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 15:28:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199807012028.PAA25665@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Kyle cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: POP mail security problem In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Jul 1998 13:00:26 PDT." Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 15:30:18 -0400 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Interesting that qualcomm appears to have pulled the 2.51 release off their server and are now back to having the 2.5 release there. I suspect that a 2.52 is in the works or will be shortly. -_Gene Kyle made the following keystrokes: >BACKGROUND > > Buffer overrun vulnerabilities have been discovered in the > Qpopper POP server for UNIX from Qualcomm, Inc. > > >SYSTEMS AFFECTED > > All systems running Qpopper versions prior to 2.51. > > >PROBLEM > > Several buffer overrun vulnerabilities have been discovered in > the Qpopper POP3 server freely available from Qualcomm, Inc. > Exploit code has been released to the Internet, and scans for the > vulnerability have been detected on NASA systems. As of now, it > appears that the vulnerability is not system-specific, and > exploit code for several architectures has been released. > > >RECOMMENDED ACTIONS > > Administrators should disable access to Qpopper, and upgrade to > version 2.51, released July 1, 1998. The updated source code is > available from: > > ftp://ftp.qualcomm.com/eudora/servers/unix/popper/qpopper2.51.tar.Z > > > >Kyle >kyle@mgsw3.jpl.nasa.gov > > > From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 2 23:53:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01617; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01607 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.254]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA15416 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) From: brian@interlinx.bc.ca Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15274; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrwolf.bctel.net(204.174.65.129) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0) id xma015243; Tue, 30 Jun 98 12:25:40 -0700 Received: (from murrell@localhost) by mrwolf.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18725; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806301928.MAA18725@mrwolf.bctel.net> X-Authentication-Warning: mrwolf.bctel.net: murrell set sender to brian@interlinx.bc.ca using -f Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:28:47 -0700 (PDT) To: sheryl@seas.gwu.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sendmail and IDENT protocol delays... In-Reply-To: <199806301856.OAA16492@gypsy> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980306-sol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: brian@interlinx.bc.ca Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Sheryl Coppenger on scroll <199806301856.OAA16492@gypsy> > > I run ident and encourage people to do so. I've found it helpful in > tracking down user badness on mult-user UNIX machines. It's not at > all useful, of course, if the person doing the badness has root access, > is on a PC, etc. When deciding whether to run ident or not, you should be concerned about how much use will it be to you. The rest of the Internet does not care, nor trust what your ident server tells them. They however should still consult it and pass the value returned on to you when identifying somebody at the other end of a connection. It is up to you, the ident server owner to decide what to do with that data, whether you can trust it, etc. That is the purpose of ident, to help the owner of the server, not anybody else. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@interlinx.bc.ca InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 2 23:57:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id XAA01888; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA01880 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.telephonet.com (ns.telephonet.com [207.252.88.11]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA12814 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.252.88.49] (vjs.telephonet.com [207.252.88.49]) by ns.telephonet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA09385 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:16:16 -0400 X-Sender: listmom@mail.telephonet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807011436.HAA09703@mail.shelby.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:14:56 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Vince Sabio, Alpha Listmom" Subject: Re: Lyris Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 14:10:38 on Tue, 30 Jun 1998, m.hampson@ic.ac.uk said: >Does anyone on this list have any experience running/using the Lyris >Mail list system. > >If so, could you share it with me. > >Thanks Hi Martyn, Yes, I run seven mailing lists (plus a non-production "test" list) on Lyris. The lists span nearly all forms -- fully moderated "announcement" style, partially moderated "discussion," and unmoderated discussion lists. I've managed lists on seven different types of list servers, including ListProc, LISTSERV, and Majordomo (plus lotsa smaller ones), and Lyris simply stands taller than the rest. In short, Lyris has some very innovative features that you typically do not find in other list servers. Most of them are things that you don't know you need until you actually *use* them -- and then you say, "Hey, this is neat!" (or similar comment ;-), and eventually decide that you could never again get by without them. That's not to say that other list servers do not have some great features, too. However, when the virtues of those features are pointed out to the Lyris developers, they find their way into Lyris very quickly. (In other words, the developer is very customer oriented.) Thus, Lyris incorporates all the things you've come to like and expect from other list servers, plus a whole lot of cool, innovative stuff, like "Action Phrases," which are owner-configurable filters that you can use to quickly and easily automate the processing of list messages. Sorta like exit apps in LISTSERV, only a helluva lot easier. Okay, that's still probably not very descriptive. Try this: I have created action phrases to (1) reject messages with attachments, (2) reject styled-text and HTML messages, (3) inform me whenever someone attempts to REVIEW any of my mailing lists (I have my lists configured to disallow such things, but I still like to know when they try), (4) reject attempts to post "virus alerts" to the mailing list, (5) reject messages with subjects that are the same as the list digests (for people who forget to change them), and a few other things that I can't think of right now. Oh yeah! Like "profanity" -- I have an action phrase that rejects messages containing specific words that my co-listmoms and I have decided are not appropriate for certain mailing lists. Anyway, you get the picture. The result is mailing lists that are easier to manage, and have much higher content. (I should add that posters are sent customized "rejection messages" when their messages are rejected.) Lyris also has the best bounce processing that I have ever seen built into a list server. Now, some will argue that there are prices to pay for that feature, but the bottom line is that, as a list owner, Lyris exhibits *phenomenal* delivery performance. Oh, and BTW, I authored the industry-standard third-party bounce processing software, so I would not be espousing the virtues of Lyris's (i.e., a competitor's) bounce handling capabilities if I did not truly believe in them. You really need to try it to understand what I'm saying here. I'm pretty sure that they offer a freeware version; try it out. I also need to mention that, while I host lists on Lyris, I do not receive *anything* from Lyris Technologies. The words in this message are truly objective; I could shut down all of my mailing lists today, and post the same message tomorrow. Thus, the standard disclaimers really *do* apply. Let me know if you have any questions; I'd be happy to answer them. (Please reply to me directly, as humournet.com (which is where I subscribe to this list) is in the process of moving to a new site, and my connectivity through there is sketchy these days.) -- Vince Sabio Listmom: HumourNet, Rhapsody, Merced, listmom@telephonet.com Mac-L, Mac-Chat, Darwin, TSC Note: The address was experiencing technical difficulties, but will soon be returning to service. Stay tuned ... From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 3 00:30:21 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id AAA05415; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id AAA05392 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:28:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8894 invoked by uid 500); 3 Jul 1998 07:29:50 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sendmail and IDENT protocol delays... References: <199806301928.MAA18725@mrwolf.bctel.net> From: Russ Allbery In-Reply-To: brian@interlinx.bc.ca's message of "Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:28:47 -0700 (PDT)" Date: 03 Jul 1998 00:29:50 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 25 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.66/Emacs 19.34 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk brian writes: > Sheryl Coppenger writes: >> I run ident and encourage people to do so. I've found it helpful in >> tracking down user badness on mult-user UNIX machines. It's not at all >> useful, of course, if the person doing the badness has root access, is >> on a PC, etc. > When deciding whether to run ident or not, you should be concerned about > how much use will it be to you. The rest of the Internet does not care, > nor trust what your ident server tells them. They however should still > consult it and pass the value returned on to you when identifying > somebody at the other end of a connection. It is up to you, the ident > server owner to decide what to do with that data, whether you can trust > it, etc. That is the purpose of ident, to help the owner of the server, > not anybody else. I'd like to add to this that if you *do* run ident, you should make sure it returns something that only you can interpret (like a UID) and specifically does *not* return a username. Otherwise, the ident returns will be collected when people on the system visit web sites and from there will be used by spammers. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 3 19:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id TAA23280; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA23273 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA01629 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19919 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:03:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lyris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been shopping for new server software to replace the shareware version of Listproc which I currently use. Listproc is a good program but it's starting to show it's age. The feature set in the shareware version of Listproc is frozen (unless you do your own hacks to the source code). Lyris has the best feature set of any server software I've been able to find. The price of Lyris is quite reasonable compared to commercial versions of Listproc or Listserv. I would like to hear from any site managers currently running Lyris under Solaris. Does it run well without undue intervention by the site manager? Any hidden flaws I should know about? - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 5 15:14:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id PAA21911; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:14:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uog9.uog.edu ([192.149.202.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id PAA21904 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 15:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost by uog9.uog.edu (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/25Apr97-0522PM) id AA04440; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:31:16 +1000 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:31:16 +1000 (GMT+1000) From: David Fleck To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Maurizio Paolini Subject: Re: spam apparently from your domain (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone here help direct Maurizio to information on patching sendmail to not relay spam? I'm afraid I'm not an expert on the issue. David Fleck (dfleck@uog9.uog.edu) Division of Natural Sciences (671)735-2795/2780 fax:734-4582 University of Guam 13.5N lat. 144.7E long. Mangilao, Guam 96923 USA Time : UTC+10 EST+15 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:21:45 +0200 (MET DST) From: Maurizio Paolini Hello, indeed I noted a strange sendmail activity, specially on the last day of June. I just came back today after a couple of weeks, so that I noted this fact just today. I think that someone is using our host from the outside as a bridge for spamming. I will see what I can do, but if you have suggestions about how to deal with the problem (this is a Solaris 2.6 running "sendmail") please let me now as soon as possible. I am not a "real" system administrator and have other duties to take care of, so that I do not have much time at my disposal (unfortunately). Thank you Maurizio Paolini From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 6 01:29:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id BAA28855; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 01:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA28847 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 01:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (rfg.ns.net [207.159.10.82]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA16043; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 01:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03494; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 01:25:47 -0700 To: David Fleck cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Maurizio Paolini Subject: Re: spam apparently from your domain (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 06 Jul 1998 08:31:16 +1000. X-Copyright: (c) 1998 Ronald F. Guilmette; All rights reserved. Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 01:25:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3492.899713547@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >Could someone here help direct Maurizio to information on patching >sendmail to not relay spam? I'm afraid I'm not an expert on the issue. Sure. Probably the best place sto start is: http://maps.vix.com/tsi/ On that page you will see a link that says something like ``How do I fix the problem?'' Click on that and you will be taken to a page which lists a whole lot of different Mail Transfer Agents. For Sendmail 8, click on the Sendmail 8 link. On the next page that comes up when you do that you will see (about the tird or fourth paragraph down) a line that says something like ``Here is a MESSAGE describing a more comprehensive solution.'' (or something like that). Anyway, click on the word MESSAGE and up will pop a copy of a mail message containing a solution that seems to work quite well _and_ that also supports virtual domain (in case you have any of those). I have found that the approach deacribed in that message works in cases where people have tried other slightly different methods and failed. In other words accept no substitutes. This one really works! (It even worked for one guy I was helping to get his relay closed even though the approach recomented by the vendor of him operating system... SCO... on their own web pages failed rather miserably.) Anyway, if you follow the instructions in the message I have pointed you at here TO THE LETTER, you will have no problems. It's a piece of cake, really. Just be sure to remember that blanks and tabs are most definitely NOT equivalent in sendmail.cf files. Thus, when you are trying to splice the material from the message I have pointed you at here into your sendmail.cf file, you will really need to bring up the message in your browser and then do a SAVE-AS to save it to a file and then use a text editor to hack out just the part of the message that's supposed to be spliced into your sendmail.cf file, and then save _just that_ to a file, and then, using a text editor, read that in while you are editing your sendmail.cf file. DO NOT just try to use X-windows cut-n-paste operations when tying to splice the additional rules into your sendmail.cf file. That will turn all the tabs into blanks and (thus) will screw up everything. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 7 17:30:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA02540; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA02532 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rapidnet.com (pt9-01.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.160]) by rapidnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14060; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:19:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35A2BAF6.DD688B83@rapidnet.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:19:02 -0600 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "mailinglist-admin@esosoft.com" , "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: Bulletin Board Alongside Mailing List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As a supplement to my mailing list, Neat Net Tricks, eScribe (the company that provides free archives to mailing lists) has opened for me a bulletin board at http://www.escribe.com/bb/nettricks. I am hopeful that a lot of the tekkie questions and comments will be funnelled off to that board and someone with a lot more computer savvy than I will help in answering. As you can imagine, 10,000 + subscribers thinking I know the answers (NOT!) gets to be a bit time-consuming. The reason I am mentioning this on this list, possibly other mail list owners might consider a similar mechanism? I could see this working best for a list that is broadcast only, since otherwise the list's purpose is to encourage an exchange of chatter in the first place. Just for what it's worth.... -Jack -- - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NEAT NET TRICKS -- A free twice-monthly email collection of useful computer and internet tips. Light-hearted and not-too-tekkie. Subscribe by Email to majordomo@majordomo.net with 'subscribe neatnettricks '. Need more info? Go to http://bounce.to/jteems ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 7 17:59:55 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id RAA03261; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.1.78]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA03246 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop05.execpc.com (pop05.execpc.com [169.207.3.82]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.9.0) id TAA06102 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:56:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from presario-7212 (farboon-105.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.108.233]) by pop05.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA03001 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 19:56:13 -0500 Message-ID: <35A2C326.15CA@execpc.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 19:53:58 -0500 From: Gillam Kerley X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Au Revoir Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just a quick note of thanks to all of you who have so graciously answered this newbie's questions over the past months. At the time I s*bscribed to this list, I was considering starting a mailing list for an organization to which I belong. Even though this never happened, I've found this list quite informative, and you all have been very helpful as I came up with other list-related questions. I'll be uns*bscribing in the next few days, but -- who knows -- I'll quite possibly be back someday. Till then, GK From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 7 21:34:36 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05921; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05911 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux.home.interlinx.bc.ca (a1a79359.sympatico.bconnected.net [209.53.4.145]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA22617 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by linux.home.interlinx.bc.ca (8.8.7/8.8.8) id QAA05116; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:06:37 -0700 Received: from bmurrell.sympatico.bconnected.net(209.53.4.246), claiming to be "pc.home.interlinx.bc.ca" via SMTP by a1a79359.sympatico.bconnected.net, id smtpda05114; Sun Jul 5 16:06:35 1998 Received: (from brian@localhost) by pc.home.interlinx.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA27156; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:06:36 -0700 From: "Brian J. Murrell" Message-Id: <199807052306.QAA27156@pc.home.interlinx.bc.ca> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 16:06:35 -0700 (PDT) To: dfleck@uog9.uog.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, paolini@galileo.dmf.bs.unicatt.it Subject: Re: spam apparently from your domain (fwd) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980621-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of David Fleck on scroll > Could someone here help direct Maurizio to information on patching > sendmail to not relay spam? I'm afraid I'm not an expert on the > issue. http://maps.vix.com/tsi has all of the information that he should need. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@interlinx.bc.ca InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 7 21:38:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05875; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05865 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skylist.net (skylist.net [38.153.106.7]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA08849 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 38.153.106.4 by skylist.net with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:29:23 -0400 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:22:49 -0500 From: "Joshua D. Baer" Subject: Re: Lyris To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII X-Mailer: Bluto X-Planation: My mountain is waiting... X-Face: {`gET4Zcf=j&$86S:2uSCA?4a1(0$ua8(x@H,I]axx\x9R_H+.[CE\e39.[lR d&$&VM^B5N0,7xHjdL-w{PkX-l\ Message-ID: <1312527532-22390586@skylist.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >** Sometime around 14:10:38 on Tue, 30 Jun 1998, m.hampson@ic.ac.uk said: > >>Does anyone on this list have any experience running/using the Lyris >>Mail list system. >> >>If so, could you share it with me. >> >>Thanks > >Hi Martyn, > >Yes, I run seven mailing lists (plus a non-production "test" list) on >Lyris. [...] Lyris kicks butt. Beyond everything Vince said, it's very flexible and has lots of different "hooks" for customization. Plus it has just about every feature you can think of, and a whole bunch you never dreamed of. After switching to Lyris, I was able to drastically cut down on my administration time without sacrificing features or flexibility. Its downsides are in logging and limited customization in some automatic email responses, but I know both of those are being worked on. ~~Josh -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joshua D. Baer SKYLIST.net Virtual Communities And will you succeed? Yes! You will, indeed! (98 and 3/4 percent guaranteed.) KID, YOU'LL MOVE MOUNTAINS! - Dr. Seuss From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 7 21:41:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA05773; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA05763 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tera.bctel.net (tera.bctel.net [204.174.64.254]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA19034 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:41:48 -0700 (PDT) From: brian@interlinx.bc.ca Received: (from nobody@localhost) by tera.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23196; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrwolf.bctel.net(204.174.65.129) by tera.bctel.net via smap (V2.0) id xma023149; Fri, 3 Jul 98 09:38:57 -0700 Received: (from murrell@localhost) by mrwolf.bctel.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01161; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807031642.JAA01161@mrwolf.bctel.net> X-Authentication-Warning: mrwolf.bctel.net: murrell set sender to brian@interlinx.bc.ca using -f Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:42:01 -0700 (PDT) To: rra@stanford.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Sendmail and IDENT protocol delays... In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.2-980306-sol MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reply-To: brian@interlinx.bc.ca Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Russ Allbery on scroll > Aye karumba! > I'd like to add to this that if you *do* run ident, you should make sure > it returns something that only you can interpret (like a UID) and > specifically does *not* return a username. Otherwise, the ident returns > will be collected when people on the system visit web sites and from > there > will be used by spammers. I can't believe I forgot to add the usual caveat to running ident. Yes, do make sure that your ident does not return logon id's either. They can be used by crackers as the first peice of info needed when launching an attack against your machine(s). b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@interlinx.bc.ca InterLinx Support Services, Inc. North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 9 05:59:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id FAA23210; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAINE.maine.edu (maine.maine.edu [130.111.39.100]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA23203 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 05:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.umpi.maine.edu(130.111.208.87) by MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Thu, 09 Jul 98 08:55:33 EDT Received: from POLARIS/MERCURYQUEUE by polaris.umpi.maine.edu (Mercury 1.21); 9 Jul 98 08:56:29 EST Received: from MERCURYQUEUE by POLARIS (Mercury 1.21); 9 Jul 98 08:56:27 EST From: "Anthony J. Albert" Organization: University of Maine at PI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:56:21 EST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mac mailing list package information (autoshare) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Message-ID: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is clipped from this morning's CNET Weekly Shareware NewsLetter. I thought it would be of interest to this list, especially, as it's a possible low-budget mailing list package. I have no familiarity with its features, but the price alone ($10) makes it worth a look, if you're looking for a mailing list package. ================================== A LISTSERVER FOR EVERYONE Anyone can start a mailing list with a minimum of time and hassle using AutoShare, a robust and speedy list server and automatic responder. Available for both 68K and Power Macs and tested with Mac OS 8.1, AutoShare can handle hundreds of mailing lists and thousands of subscribers for each list. Its automated functions handle tedious admin chores like managing subscriptions, moderating posts, making announcements, and scripting. AutoShare comes complete with script samples and documentation covering features such as multipreferences, fully automated Web archives, remote administration by email, subscriber and administrator Web forms, advanced mail-back confirmations, automated bounce and unsubscribe modules. It can also launch external applications and includes built-in Cron support, process extenders, MIME configuration of outgoing mail messages, a polling feature for voting, subscriber address protection, subject prefixes in list contributions, headers and footers in list contributions and digests, rotating banners, and much more. If you want to take control of your very own mailing list and make a substantial contribution to the online interchange of ideas, AutoShare merits an audition--and best of all, it's free. FACT FILE: Program name: AutoShare Version: 2.3 Size: 1,724K Developed by: Mikael Hansen License: Shareware ($10) Requirements: System 7.1 or later Let's make mail: http://search.shareware.com/code/engine/Find?archive=info-mac&cfrom=power&name=autoshare-23.hqx&sort=by+date+-+new+files+first ============================================================== Anthony J. Albert albert@polaris.umpi.maine.edu Systems and Software Support Specialist Postmaster Computer Services - University of Maine, Presque Isle "The World Wide Web is just like its namesake, the spider's web - full of dirt and bugs!" ============================================================== Anthony J. Albert albert@polaris.umpi.maine.edu Systems and Software Support Specialist Postmaster Computer Services - University of Maine, Presque Isle "The World Wide Web is just like its namesake, the spider's web - full of dirt and bugs!" From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 9 07:45:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id HAA24987; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from crmail.staffs.ac.uk (crmail.staffs.ac.uk [193.60.4.62]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA24980 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 07:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [158.152.62.135] (acoustic.demon.co.uk [158.152.62.135]) by crmail.staffs.ac.uk (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19251 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 15:32:07 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199807091432.PAA19251@crmail.staffs.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 15:32:27 +0100 Subject: Re: Mac mailing list package information (autoshare) From: "James Berriman" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This is clipped from this morning's CNET Weekly Shareware NewsLetter. >I thought it would be of interest to this list, especially, as it's a >possible low-budget mailing list package. > > I have no familiarity with its features, but the price alone ($10) makes it >worth a look, if you're looking for a mailing list package. >Anthony J. Albert albert@polaris.umpi.maine.edu Actually, AutoShare is freeware - as mentioned in the blurb. It works in tandem with EIMS (Eudora Internet Mail Server) or SIMS (Stalker Internet Mail Server). Don't know where they came up with the $10 fee! Homepage is ( :-]) James From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 11 21:31:56 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA16966; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA16956 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA21757 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 06:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 98 9:02:56 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Pedro Arnal Puente , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo in mac server Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9807080902.aa16415@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Hello everybody > >I am sysadmin of a server using macintosh for mail service. > >Somebody is running majordomo on a macintosh? > >I have a 7600 with macOS 8.1 and EIMS1.2 as mail server. No. There are a number of mailing list managers available for the Macintosh, but majordomo is not one of them. You can try: liststar letterip (I think - can't connect right now) macjordomo The first two are commercial products, the last is free. There may be others. I'd also recommend upgrading to EIMS2.1 if you plan on processing any large amounts of mail. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 11 21:34:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA16979; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA16969 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from izzy6.izzy.net (izzy6.izzy.net [206.84.176.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA27129 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy6.izzy.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) id NAA00119 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:18:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy6.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to dbsmith@atbbs.com using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA02973; 08 Jul 98 13:13:14 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 07 Jul 98 23:08:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Au Revoir Message-ID: <661_9807081313@atbbs.com> Organization: American Tune BBS, Ypsilanti Twp MI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -=> Gillam Kerley wrote to All <=- GK> At the time I s*bscribed to this list, I was considering starting a GK> mailing list for an organization to which I belong. Even though this GK> never happened, I've found this list quite informative, and you all have GK> been very helpful as I came up with other list-related questions. By the way, why did you decide not to do the list? ... Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW. -- >> David B. Smith | Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> Host of DEATHLAW Maillist. "Subscribe deathlaw" to listserv@atbbs.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 11 21:38:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id VAA17014; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA17006 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from teresa.strip.net.nz (teresa.strip.net.nz [203.96.128.77]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA21775 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 04:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polemic (dialin182.strip.net.nz [203.96.135.182]) by teresa.strip.net.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22880 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:34:13 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199807091134.XAA22880@teresa.strip.net.nz> From: "Rex Widerstrom" <> Organization: Polemic Political Consultants To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:38:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Odd majordomo problem Reply-to: Rex.Widerstrom@polemic.net In-reply-to: <199805160800.BAA11548@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm getting a very odd problem on a list I administer, and was wondering if anyone has come across it before and has a solution. The list is operated through majordomo. I have a subscriber who, when he receives mail from the list, his message header shows the message as having come _from_ him as well as being sent _to_ him, even when the message is from another subscriber. It appears no one else sees it as having come from him (although I can't be 100% sure, the copies sent to me do not show it, nor do they on the messages sent to another couple of subscribers I've asked). The affected subscriber remains convinced, though, that the entire list is seeing posts supposedly coming from him and is using words like "forgery" and "legal action". Is it likely that the problem lies with majordomo or elsewhere? And does anyone have a cure? Things are starting to get ugly and I'd appreciate any advice. Regards Rex Widerstrom Director, Polemic Political Consultants http://polemic.net List Manager 'Political Campaign Techniques' Mailing List ICQ# 7177996 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 16 16:25:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA21372; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from casper.tvinet.com (casper.tvinet.com [207.230.242.120]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA21363 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dhuggard@localhost) by casper.tvinet.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.9.1.Production) with SMTP id QAA00006 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Dana Huggard To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Digests and Archives. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been banging my head on the way over trying to get digests and archives working, (Majordomo-1.94.4 and Digital_UNIX 4.0c). I know some lists have it working, and some say it's not supported. I do understand it they are "extras" packaged with Majordomo.. But I am really looking for a difinitive answer.. Working with what's in the 1.94.4 archive.. Does digesting and archives really work? Cheers, Dana_H From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 17 13:14:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id NAA09917; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LORE.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU (LORE.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU [128.2.232.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA09910 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU by DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU (PMDF V5.0-5 #7763) id <01IZIGA86FW08WWTXF@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:04:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "A. Shettle" Subject: supporting users from developing countries To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01IZIGA88L1U8WWTXF@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" X-VMS-Cc: RED_TREK MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am working on setting up a new mailing list, I hope in the next few weeks, that will be very international in focus. Specifically, it will enable people to share information and ideas related to empowering deaf people in developing countries. Because of the nature of this list, I want to make it as accessible as possible to as many people as possible, *above all* people from developing countries. In the long run this probably means various nontech solutions that don't rely on the assumption of e-mail access in the first place. In the meanwhile, I want to make sure that subscribing to my list poses as few problems as possible even for subscribers using really old, clunky systems and lousy e-mail software. Does anyone here have experience running a mailing list in which many subscribers are living in developing countries? What is the range of technological access for those who have it? Specifically, what kinds of technical or other barriers are common among people in developing countries who are able to get e-mail access at all? What, if anything, can I do to make my list more "user-friendly" for subscribers facing these challenges? At the moment, I have a choice between using Majordomo or a listserv-like system. I am currently leaning toward majordomo, not because of any particular preferences I have about the system per se but because the majordomo-based site that has offered to host the list may be able to offer better tech support than the site with the listserv system. This will be the very first time I have run a mailing list (though I've subscribed to probably dozens, off and on, since about '92), so tech support is an issue for me. Will my using majordomo vs. listserv make a difference to those of my subscribers who are from developing countries? I've asked what I can think of to ask ... did I miss any important questions? When framing your replies, please be nice! I'm mostly a layperson when it comes to computers and tecchy stuff ... a little jargon is okay, to the extent that any long-time Internet user (six to eight years, depending how you define "internet user") will inevitably pick up some, but please be patient when I go "uhnh?" at the heavier stuff. I'm trying to learn as much as I can! I'm also on the majordomo-user list at the moment and would be happy to redirect any majordomo-specific issues there as needed. Andrea red_trek@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 17 16:40:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-970926-1) id QAA12321; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA12313 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netserve.ous.edu (OSSHE.EDU [140.211.10.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA03089 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from southbeach (southbeach.CONET.OSSHE.EDU [140.211.15.50]) by netserve.ous.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA15915 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:46:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980713164615.00b0a1f0@ous.edu> X-Sender: sugalskd@ous.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:46:15 -0700 To: From: Dan Sugalski Subject: Suspicious subscribe requests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dunno if anyone else has been getting these, but... Two of the mailing lists I run have gotten suspicious subscription requests sent to the list address. So far I haven't approved 'em (majordomo caught them) but, since they've got that tangy, pre-spam scent, I figured they might be popping up for other people. If this is a spam precursor then the spammers are getting smarter. (I'm tempted to approve the subscription to see what happens) The headers I got were: >From sugalskd@ous.edu Mon Jul 13 16:34:28 1998 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tuatha.sidhe.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id QAA30875 for gca-l@lists.sidhe.org; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:30:50 -0700 From: innocentia@cybergal.com Received: from web02.globecomm.net (web02.nyc.globecomm.net [207.51.48.39]) by bashir.peak.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08453 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 16:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by web02.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) id TAA26675; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 19:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807132314.TAA26675@web02.globecomm.net> Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gca-l@lists.sidhe.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: subscription Dan ---------------------------------------------"it's like this"-------------- Dan Sugalski (541) 737-3346 even samurai SysAdmin have teddy bears Oregon University System and even the teddy bears sugalskd@ous.edu get drunk From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 22 09:53:33 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA21413; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA21406 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id KAA02905; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:51:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980722105100.A1399@swcp.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:51:00 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: lm Subject: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week Mail-Followup-To: lm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This bounce is so *completely* unhelpful I just had to share it with the world in my amusement. Made me feel like I was living in the Tron universe or something: "Greetings, fellow program RSCS GBIB1UQU! I carry a message for you from Master Control!" ----- Forwarded message from RSCS GBIB1UQU at IBMMAIL ----- Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:48:01 EDT From: "RSCS GBIB1UQU at IBMMAIL" To: owner-klf@lists.xmission.com Subject: Misdirected file Regarding: File sent to 9HOLDSS at NHBVM2 File name: I3703283 NOTE, size: 62 records Subject: Misdirected file A file originating from you was sent to "9HOLDSS at NHBVM2" - this is not a valid userid or printer on the NHBVM2 system. The file is being returned to you with the originator shown as NHBVM2(SYSTEM). PLEASE CHECK THE ONLINE DIRECTORY IN CASE YOU HAVE MISKEYED THE NODEID/USERID. Please do not reply to this note; if you require assistance, send an OfficeVision note to UKSSVM1(3OSD) to include: 1. The name (including initials or forename) of the person you wish to reach. 2. The person's job title/department/nature of work if known. 3. The userid/nodeid to which you sent the original file (xxxxx at nnnnnn) You may correct the user ID of this file by issuing:- CP SM RSCS CMD NHBVM2 TRANSFER 5755 TO newnode newuser If you wish to purge the file please issue:- CP SM RSCS CMD NHBVM2 PURGE 5755 NB. Authorised users will need to use the following commands:- CP SM RSCS CMD NHBVM2 TRANSFER *NOUSER 5755 TO newnode newuser CP SM RSCS CMD NHBVM2 PURGE *NOUSER 5755 ----- End forwarded message ----- End of line... -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 22 22:46:34 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA02086; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA02073; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA33412 ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:42:15 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:40:03 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Some thoughts on user validation.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was having some discussions on the user validation aspect of lists the other day, and with the growing prevalence of web-based subscription interfaces, we got into a talk about ways to move the validation out of the list server and into the web -- while still keeping the security of the mailback validation. The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the "authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind the standard list server mailback authorization. I'm not suggesting replacing the current majordomo (or whatever) schemes, but supplement them -- so that users already working the list via the web can authorize via the web, but not until after they receive the URL via e-mail. Since clicking a URL in an e-mail client is a bit better handled technologically, and users are more likely to understand how to use a URL than an authorization string (since it uses a standard format), it's a way to help reduce user confusion by simplifying the user interface some more. Not something I'm actively pushing or promotion (although a vendor I'm working with is already implementing it in their system....) -- but I think the idea has promise, so I'm tossing it out, in case others look at it and go "yeah. Maybe if we..." and run with it. Might be something Bill might consider for MajorCool, or someone else might find handy for something they're working on... I might look at it down the road, but I know I won't get to it for a while, so I figured it'd do no harm to bring it up and see if someone else might want to play with it... chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 01:46:11 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA04677; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id BAA04668; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 01:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yzGtg-0002iy-00; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:38:44 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723093846.00918100@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:38:46 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the >"authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. >Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the >list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some >customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the >token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind >the standard list server mailback authorization. Our plan was to have a seperate user registration system that includes email verification that works much as you suggest. You give the system a username, password and email address, it then mails you a URL which includes a one off password. You then access that URL to have the account enabed (and email address verified) or go a verification form and enter the one off password. Once you're registered you should be able to effectively fake mail from that verified email address to the mailing list system. We currently only use this to allow you to post messages off the back of the web archive but the intention (and it's not that much work) was to allow you to get a list of mailing lists and subscribe/unsubscribe to these. I'd still like to clean it up a little but you can try this at: http://www.democracy.org.uk/virtual/register/email/ Here's the sort of message that you'd get back: --- Thank you for registering with UK Citizens Online Democracy. To fully complete the registration process, and validate your email address please use a web browser to access the following web page: --- http://www.democracy.org.uk/validate/test1122/sP95UffzCXIok The details of your account are as follows (you may wish to store these for later reference): Username: test Password: somepassword Thank you. registration@democracy.org.uk From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 02:48:06 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA05389; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SEGATE.SUNET.SE (segate.sunet.se [192.36.125.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA05382 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807230937.CAA05382@honor.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (192.36.125.4) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP for OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.1044FE3A@SEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:42:33 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 6328; Thu, 23 Jul 98 11:42:58 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with RFC822 id 3211; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:42:57 +0200 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:42:40 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:40:03 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk That's how LISTSERV does it BTW. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 05:45:29 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA08961; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA08952; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id IAA10266; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980723083046.A9738@gsp.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:30:46 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 10:40:03PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 10:40:03PM -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I was having some discussions on the user validation aspect of lists > the other day, and with the growing prevalence of web-based > subscription interfaces, we got into a talk about ways to move the > validation out of the list server and into the web -- while still > keeping the security of the mailback validation. I strongly oppose any method which requires use of the web. It raises the bar for participation in mailing lists -- which are the *only* part of the 'net accessible to many people, for a variety of reasons -- by requiring that they use a software component (a web browser), a data transport (IP connectivity, either directly or by proxy), and an application layer (HTTP) which may not be accessible to them in order to participate in mailing lists. ALL mailing list operations should be accessible in-band, and using the same software/data transport/application layer that's used for the mailing list itself. To require use of the web needlessly disenfranchises large number of people who are handicapped, behind firewalls, on very low-bandwidth connections, on non-IP networks, or in situations where they don't control the software the use. To bar these people from participation in mailing lists by placing additional hurdles in their way seems to me to be capricious and cruel, doubly so because I do not see that it solves any problem which cannot be equally solved by use of mail itself. To put it another way, it should not be necessary to have web access to use mailing lists, or mail access to surf the web. The fact that these disparate bits of technology *can* be integrated is not sufficient argument to demonstrate that they *should* be integrated. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 07:02:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA09701; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA09694 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 06:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.145.52.97] (adamb.tezcat.com [208.145.52.97]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id IAA28838 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:45:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807231345.IAA28838@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:46:17 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7/23/98 12:40 AM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the >"authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. >Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the >list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some >customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the >token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind >the standard list server mailback authorization. I've seen this kind of thing for other purely web-based services. You sign up, they send you a message, and you verify by going to a URL with a cookie in it. I defnitely like it, though it's sometimes a pain when the web server is down, or if I'm just Telnetting in and don't want to deal with the web at that particular moment. So long as such a system gives the user both choices, a response or a web URL, I think this would go a long way towards helping some of the more clueless folks out there, who can't figure out confirmation. I'd have to talk to some of the people who actually run this kind of thing to see what kind of success statistics they get, tho. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@tezcat.com | "Logic is the art of going wrong with adamkb@aol.com | confidence." - George Bernard Shaw Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 08:14:46 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA10524; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stingray.ivision.co.uk (stingray.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA10517; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pretender.ivision.co.uk [195.50.91.43] by stingray.ivision.co.uk with smtp (Exim 1.62 #2) id 0yzMuA-00063H-00; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:03:38 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723160339.008fab20@stingray.ivision.co.uk> X-Sender: manarpop@stingray.ivision.co.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:03:39 +0100 To: Rich Kulawiec From: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <19980723083046.A9738@gsp.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I strongly oppose any method which requires use of the web. It raises I hope you'll not find any or at least very many people who disagree with your general sentiments but there's no real need to disagree as it's not that hard to provide both a web and email interface to things as needed. It's rarely a case of either/or in terms of design though time pressure may lead to one interface developing more and earlier than the other. We do have a web only registration system on one site but that because the system is *purely* for access to things that are only appropriate on the web site - namely letting users post messages vai the website where we make it look like it's from an email address the user provided (that we validated). Manar From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 08:49:51 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10980; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA10973 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:30:22 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:30:21 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 22, 98 10:40:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [majordomo-users removed from addressees, as (1) I do not belong to it and (2) my text here is not specific to Majordomo] Katav Chuq Von Rospach, | The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the | "authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. | Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the | list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some | customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the | token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind | the standard list server mailback authorization. That sounds very much like what ezmlm does -- or at least like what FindMail/Makelist's installation of ezmlm does. It has a serious drawback, which must be addressed. I've seen this happen twice. Ezmlm sends email to the applicant address with a Reply-To: address whose local part is suffixed with the applicant address (the @-sign defused into an equal sign) and a personal confirmation token. Any mail to that exact address, suffix and all, confirms the subscription request. The message says that the subscription request can also be confirmed by http to a URL that also contains the applicant address and its confirmation token. It is presumed that anyone knowing that full suffix or full URL has received the confirmation token sent only to that address, so there is no check on the sender or surfer at confirmation time. And that is a good thing, as it al- lows the applicant some flexibility in confirming. Unfortunately, nothing in the instructions comes out and says that its return address or the supplied confirmation URL is for that subscriber and nobody else; ezmlm expects that the recipient will be alert and intelligent enough to spot his or her own address embedded and figure it out. But some aren't, and they don't (no surprise to us). On two occasions *that*I*have*seen*, people have posted to another mailing list (one of which is gated to a newsgroup) that here's the cool new mailing list others on the older list may want to join [and in each case the older list was on a closely related topic, so they were reasonable places to publi- cize the newer lists], and that they can join by pointing their browsers to the poster's personal confirmation URL. No, the poster didn't get subscribed multiple times, but the reader of the other list or newsgroup who tried it didn't get on either. I think the poster may have gotten email every time to say that he or she had already confirmed, or something like that; I am fairly sure that the repeated confirmation attempts were not just silently ignored and did create some annoyance to the poster. So if you implement something like this, please make it very very clear (to the extent that minds can be penetrated at all) in your software's reply that the confirmation reply address or URL "is for you, and you alone. Do not give it out to anybody else. If you would like to invite a friend to join our list, please tell your friend to [follow whatever the basic subscription instructions are], and the list will send your friend his or her own person- alized confirmation form." (Aside: in one of those cases the publicizer also pointed Reply-To: to his personal confirmation address and said in the text that one could join by replying to his post, but the older list where he was spreading the news clobbers Reply-To:, so the older list's submission address received a sub- scribe request from someone who already belonged to it, which slipped through its admin filter. There may have been others that the admin filter caught.) I'm sure that FindMail/Makelist can customize these texts, per site if not per list, and that this omission is their fault, not DJB's. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 09:15:28 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA11429; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA11422; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id JAA16317; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:59:10 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980723095910.A15913@swcp.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:59:10 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM References: <19980723083046.A9738@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980723083046.A9738@gsp.org>; from Rich Kulawiec on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 08:30:46AM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 08:30:46AM -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >> I was having some discussions on the user validation aspect of lists >> the other day, and with the growing prevalence of web-based >> subscription interfaces, we got into a talk about ways to move the >> validation out of the list server and into the web -- while still >> keeping the security of the mailback validation. > > I strongly oppose any method which requires use of the web. In general, sure, but I don't see any reason not to do it this way -- or at least make the option available -- for people who are requesting subscripions via the web in the first place. These folks have already hurled their bodies over the bar anyway. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 11:43:12 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA13636; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA13622; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26306; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:37:23 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA18491; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:37:21 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199807231837.NAA18491@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:37:21 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 22, 98 10:40:03 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the > "authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. > Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the > list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some > customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the > token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind > the standard list server mailback authorization. In addition to the concerns expressed earlier here that this be a complement to traditional e-mail validation procedures rather than a replacement for them, I wonder whether this will sufficiently prove that new users have both inbound and outbound e-mail connectivity with my lists? I've had more than a few instances of users who could send me e-mail but not receive it from me, or vice versa, due to a variety of problems. (And at least one case of someone who could send me e-mail from his shell account, but not from his browser.) I rather like the subscribe/acknowledge/confirm mechanism, anyone who gets through it has not only demonstrated connectivity but at least some marginal amount of both computer and general literacy, traits that seems to be all too infrequently displayed on the Internet. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 13:57:01 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA15326; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m21.boston.juno.com (m21.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.189]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA15319 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from randy266@juno.com) by m21.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DJVCEQLJ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:55:26 EDT To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:08:17 -0400 Subject: Too stay or not to stay Message-ID: <19980723.171004.3230.1.randy266@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-13 From: randy266@juno.com (Robert F Travorkitney) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would really like to stay here to keep up on things, but I don't like getting 50 emails a day about stuff that just doesn't concern me. I know that may sound a bit strange, but occasionaly there are things I do like to read here. It is beyond me why there is not a digest version of this list or the Majordomo users...... To make a digest would be like a no-brainer for me, not to insult anyone at GreatCircle, but I mean, c'mon!! EVERY normal discussion list should have a digest (ESPECIALLY, from these people)! Anyway, I have to leave now, I can't take this anymore......poof! Randy Randy@Spunge.org _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 15:31:25 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA16614; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16606 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id PAA05552; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B7B731.D490C3E9@postmodern.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:20:36 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers CC: Robert F Travorkitney Subject: Re: Too stay or not to stay References: <19980723.171004.3230.1.randy266@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Robert F Travorkitney wrote: > To make a digest would be like a no-brainer for me, not to insult anyone > at GreatCircle, but I mean, c'mon!! EVERY normal discussion list should > have a digest (ESPECIALLY, from these people)! > Anyway, I have to leave now, I can't take this anymore......poof! Not to insult YOUR intelligence or anything, but there has been a digest version of list-managers since the beginning. Just send unsubscribe list-managers subscribe list-managers-digest to majordomo@greatcircle.com. Nothing like checking the facts before posting. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 15:42:44 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA16774; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16761; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (A17-219-12-172.apple.com [17.219.12.172]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA33726 ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:37:16 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807231837.NAA18491@celery.tssi.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 22, 98 10:40:03 pm Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:35:59 -0700 To: nolan@tssi.com, chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:37 AM -0700 7/23/98, Mike Nolan wrote: >In addition to the concerns expressed earlier here that this be a complement >to traditional e-mail validation procedures rather than a replacement >for them, I wonder whether this will sufficiently prove that new users >have both inbound and outbound e-mail connectivity with my lists? Agreed. this isn't a replacement, but a supplement. >I've had more than a few instances of users who could send me e-mail but >not receive it from me, or vice versa, due to a variety of problems. >(And at least one case of someone who could send me e-mail from his >shell account, but not from his browser.) Well, nothing's 100% perfect. What are the tradeoffs? do we reduce problems for users? What's the scope of the problem? IMHO, a risk analysis would likely show that we improve live for a good number of users, make it worse for very few, and simply shift an existing problem around for a few more... So why not? >I rather like the subscribe/acknowledge/confirm mechanism, anyone who >gets through it has not only demonstrated connectivity but at least some >marginal amount of both computer and general literacy, traits that seems to >be all too infrequently displayed on the Internet. But unless your lists are about computer literacy, why should that be a requirement to join? Without using the "E" word and starting the elitist wars, isn't it the admin's job to be technical and do the nerd work, and the user's job to be a user? Do we have competency requirments to use mail lists? Why? -- Chuq Von Rospach, Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + (Hockey fan? ) USENET is like Gene Wolfe's soldier in the mists. Every day, it wakes up and sees everything as new. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 16:57:58 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA17578; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from commedia.cnds.jhu.edu (commedia.cnds.jhu.edu [128.220.231.250]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA17571 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by commedia.cnds.jhu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22757; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980723193346.11596@cnds.jhu.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:33:46 -0400 From: David Shaw To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... References: <199807231837.NAA18491@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199807231837.NAA18491@celery.tssi.com>; from Mike Nolan on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 01:37:21PM -0500 Organization: Computer Science Department, The Johns Hopkins University X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CB3B415/2048/4D 96 83 18 2B AF BE 45 D0 07 C4 07 51 37 B3 18 X-URL: http://www.jabberwocky.com/ X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is New X-Current-Email-Backlog: 395 X-Pointless-Random-Number: 109 X-Silly-Header: It sure is. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 01:37:21PM -0500, Mike Nolan wrote: > Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > > The idea that came up, which I really like, is to move the > > "authorization" token out of the e-mail space and into the web space. > > Instead of sending an auth string a user has to send back in a way the > > list server can process, you send the user a URL, which points in some > > customized way back to your web site. The web site can then verify the > > token and data, and use the admin password or whatever to sneak behind > > the standard list server mailback authorization. > > In addition to the concerns expressed earlier here that this be a complement > to traditional e-mail validation procedures rather than a replacement > for them, I wonder whether this will sufficiently prove that new users > have both inbound and outbound e-mail connectivity with my lists? It should, as the new user would be getting the authorization URL to use via email from you. If they don't get that email, then they couldn't have gotten authorized. > I rather like the subscribe/acknowledge/confirm mechanism, anyone who > gets through it has not only demonstrated connectivity but at least some > marginal amount of both computer and general literacy, traits that seems to > be all too infrequently displayed on the Internet. Ah, the web thing doesn't really handle that problem :) David -- David Shaw | dshaw@cs.jhu.edu | WWW http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~dshaw/ +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ "There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence." - Jeremy S. Anderson From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 18:12:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA19335; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quilla.tezcat.com (quilla.tezcat.com [204.128.247.10]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA19328 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [208.145.52.97] (adamb.tezcat.com [208.145.52.97]) by quilla.tezcat.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/tezcat-96091001) with SMTP id UAA03791 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:03:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807240103.UAA03791@quilla.tezcat.com> Subject: Re: Too stay or not to stay Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:03:55 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7/23/98 4:08 PM, Robert F Travorkitney wrote... >It is beyond me why there is not a digest version of this list Uh, there is. list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@tezcat.com | "Logic is the art of going wrong with adamkb@aol.com | confidence." - George Bernard Shaw Finger for PGP | http://www.tezcat.com/~adamb/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 19:14:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA20496; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA20489 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00768; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:57:07 -0500 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA02482; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:57:04 -0500 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199807240157.UAA02482@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... To: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:57:04 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 23, 98 03:35:59 pm Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > But unless your lists are about computer literacy, why should that be a > requirement to join? Without using the "E" word and starting the elitist > wars, isn't it the admin's job to be technical and do the nerd work, and > the user's job to be a user? Do we have competency requirments to use mail > lists? Why? It probably shouldn't be necessary, but it seems like most of the problems on my lists come from users who don't know how to use the tools they have now, and most of them are computer neophytes. They don't know how to use an editor, so they send 2 or 3 line posts followed by the ENTIRE message they're responding to, and sometime the entire message that THAT one responded to, etc. We get posts that contain redundant data in HTML format, posts with Microsoft TNEF attachments on them, whatever the Bill Gates those are, etc. Somehow, I don't know that making OUR tools smarter is always the best approach, because I don't know that providing smarter tools makes for smarter users. We require new drivers to demonstrate some minimal competence behind the wheel before giving them a license, at times I have to wonder if some kind of minimal computer competency test shouldn't be necessary before giving them a mouse, keyboard, and modem. Ahhh, it's been a LOOOOONG day, thank God my vacation starts next week! -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 21:45:00 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA22771; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA22764 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28356 ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:40:37 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807240157.UAA02482@celery.tssi.com> References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 23, 98 03:35:59 pm Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:36:32 -0700 To: nolan@tssi.com, chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:57 PM -0700 7/23/98, Mike Nolan wrote: > They don't know how to use an editor, so they send 2 or 3 line posts followed > by the ENTIRE message they're responding to, and sometime the entire > message that THAT one responded to, etc. > > We get posts that contain redundant data in HTML format, posts with > Microsoft TNEF attachments on them, whatever the Bill Gates those are, etc. That's why I built front end filters on things. It traps this stuff, and sends back a useful message to the user that actually tries to explain the situation. > Somehow, I don't know that making OUR tools smarter is always the best > approach, because I don't know that providing smarter tools makes for > smarter users. I have, and while there are limitation to what you can do, it's definitely worth doing. Unless there's someone around willing to babysit people through it, or you're willing to just write them off. but my user base is quite naive about things, so I really don't ahve the choice to be exclusionist. > We require new drivers to demonstrate some minimal competence behind the > wheel before giving them a license, at times I have to wonder if some > kind of minimal computer competency test shouldn't be necessary before > giving them a mouse, keyboard, and modem. I'm sure glad they didn't do that to me when *I* was starting out. It's a lot easier to demand these things once you already qualify.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 23 22:29:18 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA23117; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA23088 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA32794 ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:04:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: chuqui2@plaidworks.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 22, 98 10:40:03 pm Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:48:47 -0700 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:30 AM -0700 7/23/98, David W. Tamkin wrote: > It has a serious drawback, which must be addressed. I've seen this happen > twice. > > Ezmlm sends email to the applicant address with a Reply-To: address whose > local part is suffixed with the applicant address (the @-sign defused into > an equal sign) and a personal confirmation token. Frankly, if it's subscribing the From: address, but sending the confirmation to the Reply-To: address, it has a security hole the size of Rhode Island. That's not a drawback, that's a bug. A bad one. Same if majordomo did this -- if "foo@fred.com" is being zubscribed, then "foo@fred.com" gets the confirmation notice. Not whatever the email subscribing that address uses as a reply-to. This is a situation where reply-to HAS to be stripped and thrown away, or you're just wide open for a forge-spam -- THROUGH the validation process. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 05:58:03 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA02185; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA02178 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA09378; Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:55:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:55:03 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807241255.AA09378@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'm sure glad they didn't do that to me when *I* was starting out. It's > a lot easier to demand these things once you already qualify.... That's exactly why the licensing process must be two-step, with a temporary license allowing one to operate computing machinery under supervision of another person with a full license. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.cwru.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 06:14:16 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA02149; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id FAA02142 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA09373; Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:49:37 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 08:49:37 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807241249.AA09373@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mike Nolan wrote: > We require new drivers to demonstrate some minimal competence behind the > wheel before giving them a license, at times I have to wonder if some > kind of minimal computer competency test shouldn't be necessary before > giving them a mouse, keyboard, and modem. What we really need is a law that requires anyone operating computing machinery of any kind to have a valid computer operator's license. The penalty for operating computing machinery without one must be at least 10 years of imprisonment and possibly as severe as firing squad. Licenses must be given only to those people who demonstrate general literacy, acceptable mathematical skills, and a reasonable knowledge of computer engineering and science. The process should be as follows: First one applies for a temporary license. He/she must pass the general literacy, mathematics, and theoretical computer eng. and sci. tests to get one. A temporary license is valid only for a relatively short term and allows one to operate computing machinery only under supervision of at least one person with a full license. One uses it to learn the practical hands-on aspects of computing and pass the practical portion of the test needed to get a full license. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.cwru.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 07:43:10 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA03378; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA03368 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA25137; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980724101102.A25097@gsp.org> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:11:02 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: Manar Hussain Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... References: <19980723083046.A9738@gsp.org> <3.0.5.32.19980723160339.008fab20@stingray.ivision.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980723160339.008fab20@stingray.ivision.co.uk>; from Manar Hussain on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:03:39PM +0100 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:03:39PM +0100, Manar Hussain wrote: > I hope you'll not find any or at least very many people who disagree with > your general sentiments but there's no real need to disagree as it's not > that hard to provide both a web and email interface to things as needed. > It's rarely a case of either/or in terms of design though time pressure may > lead to one interface developing more and earlier than the other. With this, I concur: I have no problem with the idea of offering people multiple interfaces to accomplish the same goal (e.g. FTP retrieval via mail, Usenet-news reading via the web, and so on) as long as the simplest alternative is also made available. BTW (and this isn't directed at you, but at everybody), please don't conclude that I'm some kind of anti-web Luddite. I'm not: I have a track record that's nearly two decades long of pushing all kinds of new technology, often long before very many other people would pay any attention to it. So I'm all for further progress; what I'm not for is what I suppose I'd call "gratuitous progress", i.e. changes made in the name of progress that in fact don't actually accomplish anything substantive but whose side-effects adversely affect others. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 12:03:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07439; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu [129.22.50.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA07432 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA09551; Fri, 24 Jul 98 14:56:51 -0400 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 98 14:56:51 -0400 From: msokolov@blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Message-Id: <9807241856.AA09551@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user licensing ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) wrote: > Then that brings up the question of who are to be issue full licenses from > the beginning, so that others can be trained. We can't safely grandfather > every single person already on the net. True. Sincerely, Michael Sokolov Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular) ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov@blackwidow.cwru.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 12:16:32 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA07354; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA07347 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:50:31 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user licensing ... To: msokolov@blackwidow.soml.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:50:31 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9807241249.AA09373@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jul 24, 98 08:49:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Sokolov wrote, | A temporary license is valid only for a relatively short term and allows | one to operate computing machinery only under supervision of at least one | person with a full license. One uses it to learn the practical hands-on | aspects of computing and pass the practical portion of the test needed to | get a full license. Then that brings up the question of who are to be issue full licenses from the beginning, so that others can be trained. We can't safely grandfather every single person already on the net. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 24 23:56:26 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA14032; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from triceratops.com (triceratops.com [206.83.162.235]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA14025 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:42:56 -0700 (PDT) From: johnjohn@triceratops.com Received: (qmail 3788 invoked by uid 100); 25 Jul 1998 06:45:40 -0000 Message-ID: <19980725064540.3787.qmail@triceratops.com> Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 23:45:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Chuq Von Rospach" at Jul 23, 98 09:48:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Ezmlm sends email to the applicant address with a Reply-To: address whose > > local part is suffixed with the applicant address (the @-sign defused into > > an equal sign) and a personal confirmation token. > > Frankly, if it's subscribing the From: address, but sending the > confirmation to the Reply-To: address, it has a security hole the size > of Rhode Island. That's not a drawback, that's a bug. A bad one. Same > if majordomo did this -- if "foo@fred.com" is being zubscribed, then > "foo@fred.com" gets the confirmation notice. Not whatever the email > subscribing that address uses as a reply-to. > > This is a situation where reply-to HAS to be stripped and thrown away, > or you're just wide open for a forge-spam -- THROUGH the validation > process. You are 100% correct about that, except for the fact that ezmlm doesn't read From: or Reply-To: headers. It ignores them completely in favor of the envelope sender as the subscription address and confirmation address. Oh, unless it's instructed by the subscriber to use a different address for list traffic and confirmation. In fact this is just a hop-skip and a jump from being a "web-enabled" solution. A mere switch to enclose the address in html tags would allow people who so chose to use that as a confirmation method. A solution which doesn't require any integration with a web server. Or, in fact, the existance of a web server. John -- John White Triceratops Admin johnjohn@triceratops.com From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 28 02:43:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA03375; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.inet.fi (smtp.inet.fi [192.89.123.192]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA03368 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 02:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-526-197.dial.inet.fi ([194.142.5.197]:1205 "HELO tietokone") by smtp.inet.fi with SMTP id <18722-19279> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:29:09 +0300 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980728122648.0082c890@pop.inet.fi> X-Sender: xyzxyz-1@pop.inet.fi X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 12:26:48 +0300 To: minkkih@pp.fi From: Christel Nyman Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hej Minkki, Jag började prenumerera på en lista för listowners och jag sänder det här till dig eftersom det handlade om just det som jag försökte beskriva häromnyssens. För övrigt såg jag att du översatt ledaren i Kääntäjä. Den var helt bra så när som på två tre obestämda former som borde ha varit bestämda. Enligt min åsikt. Fråga: gör du hocket gratis (som jag gjorde en gång i världen) eller får du betalt? Och i det senare fallet, redigt eller en skärv bara? Här kommer brevet: Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > But unless your lists are about computer literacy, why should that be a > requirement to join? Without using the "E" word and starting the elitist > wars, isn't it the admin's job to be technical and do the nerd work, and > the user's job to be a user? Do we have competency requirments to use mail > lists? Why? It probably shouldn't be necessary, but it seems like most of the problems on my lists come from users who don't know how to use the tools they have now, and most of them are computer neophytes. !!!!!Alltså detta: They don't know how to use an editor, so they send 2 or 3 line posts followed by the ENTIRE message they're responding to, and sometime the entire message that THAT one responded to, etc. We get posts that contain redundant data in HTML format, posts with Microsoft TNEF attachments on them, whatever the Bill Gates those are, etc. Somehow, I don't know that making OUR tools smarter is always the best approach, because I don't know that providing smarter tools makes for smarter users. We require new drivers to demonstrate some minimal competence behind the wheel before giving them a license, at times I have to wonder if some kind of minimal computer competency test shouldn't be necessary before giving them a mouse, keyboard, and modem. Ahhh, it's been a LOOOOONG day, thank God my vacation starts next week! -- Mike Nolan Jag tog inte bort något av ursprungsbrevet den här gången. Heippa CHRISTEL From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 28 23:56:50 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA19455; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newsguy.com (perry.co.pathlink.com [207.211.168.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA19447 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kd6ttl-m1 (A122010.sac1.as.crl.com [168.75.122.10]) by newsguy.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08513 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980728234715.009953c0@pop.newsguy.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 23:47:15 -0700 To: lm From: Jack Hamilton Subject: Re: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week In-Reply-To: <19980722105100.A1399@swcp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:51 22 07 1998 -0600, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >This bounce is so *completely* unhelpful I just had to share it with the world >in my amusement. Made me feel like I was living in the Tron universe or >something: "Greetings, fellow program RSCS GBIB1UQU! I carry a message for >you from Master Control!" It doesn't strike me as completely unhelpful. >Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:48:01 EDT >From: "RSCS GBIB1UQU at IBMMAIL" A valid return address, or at least ibmmail.com is a valid host name. >A file originating from you was sent to "9HOLDSS at NHBVM2" - this >is not a valid userid or printer on the NHBVM2 system. The file >is being returned to you with the originator shown as NHBVM2(SYSTEM). Your list sent mail to user 9HOLDSS on system NHBVM2. It's probably a VM/CMS system. >PLEASE CHECK THE ONLINE DIRECTORY IN CASE YOU HAVE MISKEYED THE NODEID/USERID. Well, that's not very helpful, since you probably don't have access to that directory. >Please do not reply to this note; if you require assistance, send an >OfficeVision note to UKSSVM1(3OSD) to include: Another contact address, but not a useful one, since you don't know the Internet equivalent of that node name. And they're running OfficeVision (the mailer formerly known as PROFS). >1. The name (including initials or forename) of the person you wish to reach. >2. The person's job title/department/nature of work if known. >3. The userid/nodeid to which you sent the original file (xxxxx at nnnnnn) > >You may correct the user ID of this file by issuing:- >CP SM RSCS CMD NHBVM2 TRANSFER 5755 TO newnode newuser Definitely a VM/CMS system. If you were able to issue this command, which you aren't, it would tell the Control Program to send an SMSG (a special type of cross-process message - think of it as an early form of sockets) to userid RSCS (probably a detached virtual machine running the Remote Spooling Communications Subsystem - or something like that, I haven't used it in years). The SMSG text is a command RSCS telling RSCS to transfer spool entry 5755 to a different recipient. -- Jack Hamilton jfh@acm.org From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 29 09:12:39 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA28457; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA28445 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) id KAA11406 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:11:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <19980729101059.A10424@swcp.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:10:59 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble To: lm Subject: Re: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week Mail-Followup-To: lm References: <19980722105100.A1399@swcp.com> <3.0.5.32.19980728234715.009953c0@pop.newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980728234715.009953c0@pop.newsguy.com>; from Jack Hamilton on Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:47:15PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jul 28, 1998 at 11:47:15PM -0700, Jack Hamilton wrote: >> This bounce is so *completely* unhelpful I just had to share it with the >> world in my amusement. > > It doesn't strike me as completely unhelpful. Well, Jack, you're not the one trying to figure out which list address is causing the bounce, or maybe you'd see it more my way. >> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:48:01 EDT >> From: "RSCS GBIB1UQU at IBMMAIL" > > A valid return address, or at least ibmmail.com is a valid host name. Unfortunately, the list in question has never had a subscriber from ibmmail.com -- someone is forwarding mail there from another address, and the bounce message doesn't include any information that would help me find out what that address is. Hence: "unhelpful". -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ::: Internet Music Wantlists: http://www.swcp.com/lazlo/Wantlists From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 30 06:31:52 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA13363; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA13355 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gillette ([160.43.47.9]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id HAA22441; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:20:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:20:17 -0400 Message-ID: <000801bdbbbc$cb888710$017b7b0a@gillette> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199807300800.BAA08009@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.0518.4 Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When deliveries bounce *after user forwarding*, it is often hard to identify the offending subscriber on your end, even when the bounce message is canonical Sendmail with all the trimmings. So ridiculing the IBM dialect of this particular bounce is beside the point, or we might say, "unhelpful." :) If absolutely all else fails, you can take your current roster and send (directly, not via listserv/majordomo) a set of SERIALIZED "This is a list test - please ignore" messages to the addresses. I once hacked some scripts for this, but looking just now I don't know what I did with them -- it's not hard anyway. Then when "TEST 0001347" bounces with that IBM message, you look at your list and bingo, joe@otherplace.com is the culprit. Lazlo Nibble wrote: > Well, Jack, you're not the one trying to figure out which list address is > causing the bounce, or maybe you'd see it more my way. > > >> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:48:01 EDT > >> From: "RSCS GBIB1UQU at IBMMAIL" > > > > A valid return address, or at least ibmmail.com is a valid host name. > > Unfortunately, the list in question has never had a subscriber from > ibmmail.com -- someone is forwarding mail there from another address, and the > bounce message doesn't include any information that would help me find out > what that address is. Hence: "unhelpful". From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 30 09:45:27 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA15105; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA15098 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slip129-37-92-102.mi.us.ibm.net (slip129-37-92-102.mi.us.ibm.net [129.37.92.102]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA12948 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:02:31 GMT Message-ID: <35C09AB5.5285@Qmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:09:25 -0700 From: Thompson X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Helpful Feedback for Newbies Who Err? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk - -------------- Quoting Chuq ----------- - > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:36:32 -0700 > From: Chuq Von Rospach > Subject: Re: Some thoughts on user validation.... > > 7/23/98 [Mike]--- >> They don't know how to use an editor, so they send 2 or 3 line posts >> followed by the ENTIRE message they're responding to, and sometime >> the entire message that THAT one responded to, etc. >> >> We get posts that contain redundant data in HTML format, posts with >> Microsoft TNEF attachments on them, whatever the Bill Gates those are, etc. [Chuq]--- > That's why I built front end filters on things. It traps this stuff, > and sends back a useful message to the user that actually tries to > explain the situation. Wow, Chuq, would I like to see those messages! I wonder if they may be useful as templates for others of us to consider? Are they copyrighted? Steal-able? is there a way you could possibly make them available? Post them on a web site somewhere...? I'm a list maintainer, learning that I can't help zubscribers whose email tools are completely unfamiliar to me. I would love to have---and share with zubscribers---some helpful information on how/where to turn off html or QP or iso or whatever, in their email clients. Folks who don't read manuals and are completely unfamiliar with their own email tools, create key problems. And I can't help them with that, if I too am clueless about their client. That stymies me, time and again. Hmm, not only would I like to offer helpful information, I'd like to offer it in a way that doesn't reflect annoyance on my part. That would be a bonus. Thanks, Thom From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 30 10:30:47 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA16029; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elvis.vnet.net (elvis.vnet.net [166.82.1.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA16021 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (murr@katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by elvis.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA19667; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA11813; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:16:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:16:27 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Steven Clift cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, List-Moderators@lists.ironclad.net.au Subject: List Service Providers In-Reply-To: <199807301552.KAA21950@mail.wavefront.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Edmonds maintains a list of mailing list service providers. - http://www.cs.ubc.ca/spider/edmonds/usenet/ml-providers.txt - send email to majordomo@edmonds.home.cs.ubc.ca with the following line in the body of the message: get faq ml-providers.txt Vivian Neou maintains a similar list of host sites along with additional useful information about mailing lists such as her venerable "List of Lists" and a web page describing various mailing list software packages. - http://www.catalog.com/vivian/ The list host providers offer very wide range of services including: discussion lists, announcement lists, digests, archiving, web interfaced search engines, full service list management, etc. Prices for hosting services range from free to hundreds of dollars a month. To have your mailing list host services listed on these pages contact Brian Edmonds or Vivian Neou . - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 30 12:27:57 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA18077; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tekka.wwa.com (tekka.wwa.com [198.49.174.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA18070 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tekka.wwa.com via sendmail with stdio id for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:14 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #88 built 1997-Nov-30) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:13 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <000801bdbbbc$cb888710$017b7b0a@gillette> from "Tom Neff" at Jul 30, 98 09:20:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tom Neff wrote, | If absolutely all else fails, you can take your current roster and send | (directly, not via listserv/majordomo) a set of SERIALIZED "This is a list | test - please ignore" messages to the addresses. I once hacked some | scripts for this, but looking just now I don't know what I did with them -- | it's not hard anyway. Then when "TEST 0001347" bounces with that IBM | message, you look at your list and bingo, joe@otherplace.com is the culprit. Probe messages work only if the refusing site sends you back the text, or sends you back your outgoing subject, or at least returns something that distinguishes one probe message from the others. Prodigy tells you only that such-and-such a user ID is not valid: no text, no Received: headers for the trip from your site to Prodigy, no trace of your Subject:, nothing. You're not going to know that it is probe #0001347 that one of your subscribers forwarded to the invalid address if you put the identifier in the subject or the text. (If the bouncing site returns headers, it will also return your outgoing To:, which should also tell you. Of course your list distri- butions won't show To: each subscriber, but your probe messges will.) The only way to deal with mail forwarded to invalid Prodigy ID's is with VERPs or suffixing on your envelope sending address. If you don't have that facility, you're up a creek. (Well, unless you have limitless pa- tience to send a probe to one subscriber, give Prodigy an hour to return the bounce, see if nothing happens, send the next subscriber a probe, etc.) From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 30 16:26:40 1998 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA20616; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eagle.ns.net (eagle.ns.net [204.75.146.20]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA20609 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (rfg.ns.net [207.159.10.82]) by eagle.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23540 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18602 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:26:00 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unhelpful Bounce Of The Week In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:13 -0500. From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:25:59 -0700 Message-ID: <18600.901841159@monkeys.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wrote: >Probe messages work only if the refusing site sends you back the text, or >sends you back your outgoing subject, or at least returns something that >distinguishes one probe message from the others. Prodigy tells you only that >such-and-such a user ID is not valid: no text, no Received: headers for the >trip from your site to Prodigy, no trace of your Subject:, nothing. You're >not going to know that it is probe #0001347 that one of your subscribers >forwarded to the invalid address if you put the id