From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 1 20:27:24 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA03873; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id UAA03862 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from electra.znyx.com (electra.znyx.com [209.0.10.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA21571 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from c843116-a (c843116-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.1.69.17]) by electra.znyx.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19047 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:54:17 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:47:34 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am convinced that nobody lasts long in the mailing list game with a "why me" attitude. Can anyone top this? >From: RWPFL@aol.com >Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 08:21:23 EST >To: alan@znyx.com >Subject: parent-teen list >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 > >I AM LOOKING FOR A MAILING LIST OF 15-16 YEAR OLD TEENS IN THE STATE OF NEW >YORK FOR A BULK MAILING. CAN YOU HELP? >THANKS, >BOB PROECHEL >RWPFL@AOL.COM > ----------------------- Alan.Deikman@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 1 22:08:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA05179; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:04:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA05172 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:04:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.1/8.9.0/best.sh) id WAA24438; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:04:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:04:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901020604.WAA24438@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com> (message from Alan Deikman on Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:47:34 -0800) Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 09:47:34 -0800 From: Alan Deikman Can anyone top this? >Subject: parent-teen list >I AM LOOKING FOR A MAILING LIST OF 15-16 YEAR OLD TEENS IN THE STATE OF NEW >YORK FOR A BULK MAILING. CAN YOU HELP? *Sheesh* that is pretty bad. Definately tops the parade of grade through high school students I get asking me to do their homework for them ("Please tell me how the immune system works")...half of them write back to tell me what an awful ungiving person I am when I politely tell them to bother a (paid) librarian instead. I've also had a couple chemical manufacturers write me asking me to post job notices...my list is for people with multiple chemical sensitivities (duh!). I think you win :-)) Thanks for the chuckle. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.consultclarity.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 1 23:38:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA06214; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 23:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA06205 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 23:30:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA11336; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 02:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03573; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 02:30:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 02:30:31 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Alan Deikman's subscriber wrote: > I AM LOOKING FOR A MAILING LIST OF 15-16 YEAR OLD TEENS IN THE STATE > OF NEW YORK FOR A BULK MAILING. CAN YOU HELP? I'd say clueless. On my own list at the moment, I'm having trouble explaining to my subscribers that they can't grab a copyrighted news articles from the web and past it to the mailing list... I can't give them permission to steal a news article anymore than I can give them permission to rob the corner liquor store. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 2 10:49:18 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA18533; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA18504 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA13767 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:37:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990102133713.A13748@gsp.org> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:37:13 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. References: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com>; from Alan Deikman on Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:47:34AM -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Dec 29, 1998 at 09:47:34AM -0800, Alan Deikman wrote: > I am convinced that nobody lasts long in the mailing > list game with a "why me" attitude. Can anyone top this? Nope. But I'd suggest compiling a list of addresses of the form: postmaster@ root@ and giving it to him for free. The ensuing backlash ought to enough to discourage him from trying that again. ;-) ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 3 19:43:38 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA10832; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA10824 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell.portal.ca (shell.portal.ca [204.174.35.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA20052 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by shell.portal.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA19879; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:55:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 12:55:48 -0800 (PST) From: Christine Code To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981229094734.00f8074c@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Dec 1998, Alan Deikman wrote: > I am convinced that nobody lasts long in the mailing > list game with a "why me" attitude. Can anyone top > this? I can certainly tie it with examples from extremely clueless people who've subscribed to my list over the years. How about this one: Along comes a subscriber who uses a one-word alias instead of his name, confidentially mentioning that this is because he's so important in his extremely serious profession that his life would be at risk if he used his real name on the Net. (My "we have an idiot" bells start going off at this point.) Anyway, Mr Important posts some regular stuff, but then goes and posts a message that clearly violates the list guidelines. Since this is a moderated list, his posting is not approved for distribution. Mr Important has a hissy fit, demands he be unsubscribed. In response, he gets a polite letter which includes the "how to unsubscribe" directions. Ah, but he doesn't want to unsubscribe himself - he's far too important for that! So instead he he mail-bombs the list with about 100 massive messages (all forwards of previous digests with nasty notes attached) and gets quite pissed off when his ISP tells him he'd better stop violating their user services agreement. :-) His hissy-fit letters to me are quite hilarious, especially the ones with subject lines like LEGAL NOTICE! in which he tries to sound as frightening as possible, and threatens to sue me if I don't unsubscribe him. I filtered his mail to trash and ignored him completely after that. I assume he finally unsubscribed himself. cmc Christine Code Aquafolia ornatis, Vancouver, Canada Tempus hoc hilaritatis cmc@ferret.net Vestes claras induamus, http://www.ferret.net/cmc Cantilenas nunc promamus. From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 3 19:58:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA10769; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:28:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA10759 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from randomc.com (cluster1.nbank.net [207.15.208.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id HAA16669 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 07:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from RICK.randomc.com (pm-atl-1-59.nbank.net [209.195.11.59]) by randomc.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA19287 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:00:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990102104632.01453370@mail.randomc.com> X-Sender: rjaggers@mail.randomc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 10:46:32 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Rick Jaggers Subject: Rix [FAQ]s In-Reply-To: <199901020900.BAA07502@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 02:30:31 -0500 (EST) > From: murr rhame > Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. > > I'd say clueless. On my own list at the moment, I'm having trouble > explaining to my subscribers that they can't grab a copyrighted news > articles from the web and past it to the mailing list... I can't give > them permission to steal a news article anymore than I can give them > permission to rob the corner liquor store. I maintain several mailing lists, and I use Eudora to schedule [FAQ]s to drop every other day or so. Each [FAQ] is different, and appears no more than twice a month. Here is the one I use, and you are welcome to steal freely from it: SUBJECT: [FAQ]- Quoting []========================================================[] Can I copy another message into [RixPlace]? []========================================================[] Bringing another message into [RixPlace] for discussion is a tricky proposition. First, you may NOT just cut-and-paste an entire message You must respect the author's privacy and ownership of their message. Copyright (c) infringement may become an issue. For example, the CO Digest has double protection for messages reprinted there. First, it *IS* copyright by CO Digest. Next, there is a disclaimer that NO message may be reproduced without the author's permission. Even newsgroups are a touchy situation. While it appears on the surface to be a free-wheeling newsgroup, whoever wrote a message ultimately "owns" it. Your best bet? Copy *ONLY* the paragraph (or two) that interests you the most. Begin your message with these words: "I found the following message at (on)..." > "Then quote and indent to clearly identify that the > words belong to someone else." After that, explain why you think it should be talked about by the [RixPlace] subscribers. [END]===================================================[END] FWIW, here is ANOTHER one which I keep queued up! Again, feel free to steal and use as you see fit: SUBJECT: [FAQ] Alerts & Hoaxes []========================================================[] "I just heard something absolutely unbelievable..." []========================================================[] Please do not use [RixPlace], [RixPlace:Hottub]*, or [RixPlace:Humor] to pass along alarming news and alerts UNLESS you verify the information YOURSELF, first! If the story you've received seems particularly alarming, you might use these web sites as a resource and reference to make sure you are not passing along junk as truth: You can begin your tour with a government site: http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html http://ciac.llnl.gov/ These site focuses on urban legends & stories http://urbanlegends.tqn.com These sites focuses on computer virus hoaxes http://www.kumite.com/myths http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/bulletins/h-05.shtml And the new master site: http://www.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Mythology_and_Folklore/Urban_Legends/ I strongly urge you to visit, AND BOOKMARK, these web sites. Please refer to them whenever YOU receive an alert but before you send it along. []========================================================[] NOTICE: I am not saying to not share information. What I *AM* saying is to personally research and verify it before you post it! Read on... []========================================================[] Something to ponder: ... "Think about it. In the digital age, information can be instantaneously reproduced at the click of a mouse button. When I forward an email message to you, I cause an exact duplicate of a piece of information I've received to appear in your mailbox. I do not communicate the information to you, I simply transfer it. The information is thus autonomous -- "untouched by human hands," as it were -- which, by the curious logic of hyperreality, actually heightens its air of authenticity. "It also negates the concept of accountability, because even though I can pass the same piece of information on to you and a hundred other people by clicking 'send,' I am in no practical sense its 'source.' ..."Our only recourse is to fall back on the concept of personal responsibility. Each of us, as information passes through our hands, has the opportunity to jump out of the chain of unaccountability and CHECK THE FACTS OURSELVES -- in effect, to become a source and be held accountable." Quoted from: http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa081097.htm ............................................................ Only For Fun: http://www.snopes.com/spoons/legends/legends.htm []========================================================[] * Actually, I suppose it is OK to post a story/legend to the [HotTub] as long as you identify it as a story and not send it as an alert! [END]===================================================[END] Comments are appreciated: Rick Jaggers or Rick Jaggers I have many others which I'm willing to share, if anyone is interested... -- Rick From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 06:56:38 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA21574; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA21567 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:46:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25022 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08491 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:46:50 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:46:50 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. You may run the best durn mailing list on the net. If the person receiving your fine mailing list doesn't want it, it's still junk-mail. I don't care if they willingly asked for the $ubscription. I don't care if they refuse to read the instructions. When they want out, I punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on request, is no better than a common spammer. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 09:43:09 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA23186; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA23179 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22464; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:29:37 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28427; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:29:33 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <199901041729.LAA28427@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests To: murr@vnet.net (murr rhame) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:29:33 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "murr rhame" at Jan 4, 99 09:46:50 am Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame wrote: > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > the attempt is made. I generally do the same. In my experience not doing so tends to cause problems for everybody else on the list, and I consider it part of the duties of running a list and keeping the peace on it. (It might take a day or two until I get around to making a manual maintenance pass, if it's going to be longer than that, such as when I'm on the road and just checking my e-mail every day or two, I'll generally drop a note telling the person I'll take care of it when I return.) I will also treat a note saying things like 'you guys all suck' as a request to unsubscribe, and also put that address on the 'do not process requests' list, though I don't put that address in my personal kill file, because on occasion it turns out that the inappropriate message was forged. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 10:11:59 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23768; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (mail.proper.com [206.86.127.224]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA23759 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from aum (ip08.proper.com [165.227.249.8]) by mail.proper.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA15320; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:05:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990104095527.027df6c0@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: paulh@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:58:43 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:46 AM 1/4/99 -0500, murr rhame wrote: >I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly >the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the >clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. >You may run the best durn mailing list on the net. If the person >receiving your fine mailing list doesn't want it, it's still junk-mail. >I don't care if they willingly asked for the $ubscription. I don't >care if they refuse to read the instructions. When they want out, I >punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my >humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on >request, is no better than a common spammer. I agre with Murr up to the last sentence. In my opinion, a list admin is not *required* do this service, but it is nice when she/he does. And any admin who gets a personal message that says "I tried to unsubscribe but can't" really, really should unsubscribe the user. If a userhas lost access to a previous mail account, telling them to forge that account's name on a message to unsubscribe is possbily telling them to break the law. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 11:25:20 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA24472; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA24465 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA02487 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:16:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990104141609.A2469@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:16:09 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests References: <19990104140320.A1935@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990104140320.A1935@gsp.org>; from Rich Kulawiec on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 02:03:20PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 02:03:20PM -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > solicited mail from it. That removes the "B" in "UBE" (unsolicited bulk Oops. s/B/U/. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 11:55:26 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA24887; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA24880 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa23708; 4 Jan 99 11:49 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 04 Jan 99 11:07:29 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 10:59:46 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame writes: > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. I write them off immediately as well, but for a different reason entirely. I am less interested in the inalienable rights pertaining to and holy sanctity of the mailbox of a dud than in ridding us of someone too dumb to know or to learn how to perform the simplest navigation. I remember someone here was so invested in the education of idiots that he set up a separate list and maintained the flounders on it until they read the simple instructions of how they might help themselves. I marvel at that level of patience. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 12:11:04 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA24896; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA24889 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:48:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa23714; 4 Jan 99 11:49 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 04 Jan 99 11:24:04 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Mon, 04 Jan 99 11:08:17 PST Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christine Code writes: > Along comes a subscriber who uses a one-word alias instead of his > name, confidentially mentioning that this is because he's so > important in his extremely serious profession that his life would > be at risk if he used his real name on the Net. This is a staple, I believe. Remember that the old cliche of the online male adolescent with poor social skills is not a myth; there really are plenty of them out there. I have had this sample of rising-testosterone-without-accompanying-accomplishment panic to exactly the degree you describe. One would not reveal his true ID because "half the people in the Nosh would recognize it." Another is a genius and somehow that would affect the perceptions of others were they to learn how brilliant he is (which indeed we would never know of if were his writing the only clue). One of the great online features is the ability to be whoever you want to be. General acceptance of that role is not always so easy. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 12:25:56 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA25366; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cybercorp.net (www.cybercorp.net [207.112.30.80]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA25349 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24351; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:20:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:19:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" Reply-To: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: murr rhame cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, murr rhame wrote: > punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my > humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > request, is no better than a common spammer. Oh sure! I'm a spammer. Thank you. Your philosophy is correct and a bunch of us are common spammers. Gee, pretty hard to focus on the real spammers if you're going to confuse the issue like that. Why are mailing lists are automated? Answer: because otherwise they would absorb too much human time and therefore many of them could not be offered as a free public service. ---rob--- %% virted, soho-can & webmaster-l list facilitator %% Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D. | ~ ~ ~ GYMNASIA VIRTUALES ~ ~ ~ CyberCorp Inc. | GymVCOW - http://www.cybercorp.net/COW rhiggins@cybercorp.net | GymVMOO - http://www.cybercorp.net/GymVMOO http://www.cybercorp.net | GymVCourses - http://www.cybercorp.net/gymv From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 15:25:20 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA27480; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcmail2.liv.ac.uk (pcmail2.liv.ac.uk [138.253.252.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA27473 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [138.253.134.32] (helo=ts134032.dial.liv.ac.uk) by pcmail2.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0zxJ9x-0000Po-00; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:11:42 +0000 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:10:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Thew To: Tim Bowden cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: The University of Liverpool X-X-Sender: qq11@pop1.liv.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Tim Bowden wrote: > murr rhame writes: > > > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the > > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. > > > I remember someone here was so invested in the education of idiots that > he set up a separate list and maintained the flounders on it until they > read the simple instructions of how they might help themselves. I > marvel at that level of patience. > > I thought this was punishment not education :-) Alan From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 15:40:20 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA27500; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA27493 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA26585 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23970 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:12:34 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:12:33 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I figured that I was going to take some heat for my "punt at first site" policy, particularly when I added the "no better than a common spammer" bit. I don't show them the exit only because I don't want to send trash their mail box. I'm also protecting my list from noise and conserving my personal time. I'm amused by the admins who have all the time in the world to conduct private email flame wars while attempting to force the clueless to un$ubscribe themselves... Quick-punting takes the least time. If someone wants to waste their efforts trying to educate and or punish the clueless, press on. I've got better things to do. Un$ubscribing folks on request consumes only a tiny fraction of my admin time. If you don't have enough time to un$ubscribe the clue impaired, do you really have enough time to properly administer a mailing list? I doubt it. Get an assistant admin or two if you need help. Relax. Stop doing things the hard way. - murr - From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 17:21:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28978; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA28963 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA18108 ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:10:32 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:04:15 -0800 To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:59 AM -0800 1/4/99, Tim Bowden wrote: > and holy sanctity of the mailbox of a dud than in ridding us of someone > too dumb to know or to learn how to perform the simplest navigation. Try running a mailing list with a few hundred thousand net-naive users. They're not too dumb. They may not be experienced, but they're not dumb. I have to say that blaming the users is use as tunnel-visioned as Murr's whitewash of administrators that don't match up with his personal values. Both are overly simplistic and don't match reality very well. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 17:50:43 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28979; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA28965 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA23214 ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:10:27 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:01:57 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:46 AM -0500 1/4/99, murr rhame wrote: > Even the > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. Of course, they signed up for the list. It's NOT unsolicited. They may have decided they don't want it any more, but that's not unsolicited. > In my > humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > request, is no better than a common spammer. At some level, I actually agree with you. But half the trick is to build systems easy enough to use so that these issues don't actually come up very often. I've found that using a message footer, and a digest unsubscribe block, as well as some of the other make-easy tools I've added (like -unsubscribe addresses with mailto: links) has pretty much removed this as an issue for me, even with the exceptionally large numbers of very naive list users I deal with at Apple. Now, I'm trying to work on making the subscription process easier to drop that bar further, since we find the mailback validation setup a necessary evil, but one which causes some significant dropout during the subscription process (my numbers are about 40% of the folks who send the subscribe drop out and never send the auth -- but that once they get over THAT hump, only about 1% actually have problems with the authorization process itself...) And in practice, with very large lists like I run, you end up having a couple of choices -- fixing the problems for people who CAN'T make things work, or taking care of those who haven't bothered trying. Guess which one gets my priority? -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 19:06:50 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA00455; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:49:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA00448 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA05315 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:51:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990104215122.A5291@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:51:22 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 06:12:33PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 06:12:33PM -0500, murr rhame wrote: > I'm amused by the admins who have all > the time in the world to conduct private email flame wars while > attempting to force the clueless to un$ubscribe themselves... Oh, I don't bother with private email flame wars. If the offense is sufficiently egregious, I simply report the miscreant for abuse to their ISP/organization. That usually gets their attention. > Quick-punting takes the least time. For *you*, sure. But then all you have effectively done is teach these idiots that (a) mailbombing the entire list or (b) pestering the list admin *works*, instead of teaching them the right way. This means that future list admins will have to deal with the problem *you* have conveniently shifted onto their shoulders. Personally, I have higher regard for my colleagues, and so I try to educate when possible and punish when necessary in order to try to spare them (my colleagues) the effort. > If someone wants to waste their > efforts trying to educate and or punish the clueless, press on. If you want to take the expedient way out instead of doing the right thing, that's your priviledge. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Mon Jan 4 19:20:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA00714; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA00707 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA22474 ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:07:56 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:03:16 -0800 To: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:12 PM -0500 1/4/99, murr rhame wrote: Funny that Murr ends with: > Stop doing things the hard > way. Because earlier, he says: > I'm also protecting my list from noise and > conserving my personal time. I'm amused by the admins who have all > the time in the world to conduct private email flame wars while > attempting to force the clueless to un$ubscribe themselves... I don't have those wars. I don't have the noise on the lists, either. That's because I put time into building the list server to handle these things. The server protects the lists from common administrative blunders by users, and also works really hard to help users get where they want to go. Arguably, the way Murr does it is the hard way, because he's not fixing the problem, he's trying to minimize how long he spends treating the symptom. > Quick-punting takes the least time. I'd argue that. first, by quick-punting, you never take the time to figure out why the users are doing the wrong thing, which means you never take the time to fix the REAL problem. Me, I'll spend some more time up front, because it's meant a real reduction in REPEATED problems. Maybe I spend more time on a few users, but it means in the long run that there are hundreds of users I never have to solve that problem for later. Penny-wise, pound foolish, Murr. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 01:39:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA03024; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from beat.kiss.fi (beat.kiss.fi [193.65.198.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA03017 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by beat.kiss.fi (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02708 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:43:52 +0200 (EET) X-Authentication-Warning: beat.kiss.fi: tuupola owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:43:51 +0200 (EET) From: Mika Tuupola To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, murr rhame wrote: > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. > You may run the best durn mailing list on the net. If the person > receiving your fine mailing list doesn't want it, it's still junk-mail. > I don't care if they willingly asked for the $ubscription. I don't > care if they refuse to read the instructions. When they want out, I Net would be _much_ better place without cloobies who simply refuse to read the intructions. Its true that it would be nice from list-maintainer if he/she removed subscribers address if the subscriber simply is stoopid enough not to understand how to do it for him/herself. This was _not_ the case Christines mail. > humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > request, is no better than a common spammer. Eh? -- Mika Tuupola tuupola@appelsiini.net Appelsiini Networks http://www.appelsiini.net/ From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 04:28:56 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA08623; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from praline.no.neosoft.com (praline.no.NeoSoft.COM [206.27.160.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA08616 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 04:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 6336 invoked by uid 10086); 5 Jan 1999 12:16:53 -0000 Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 06:16:53 -0600 (CST) From: Ray Jones cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, murr rhame wrote: > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the So do I. > I don't care if they willingly asked for the $ubscription. I don't > care if they refuse to read the instructions. When they want out, I > punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my I do the same UNLESS they send me nasty notes demanding that I take them off, etc. In the latter case, I let them sweat for a while. I know I'm a "bad person," but I just can't help it. (g) -- Regards, "Big Ray the Cab Driver" Jones - Licensed Tour Guide ICQ UIN 1473313 Author of "The Complete Idiot's Travel Guide to New Orleans" ISBN 0-02-862303-7 Disseminating info about New Orleans & Louisiana via my web page at http://www.neosoft.com/~rayjones/welcome.html or you can join "Big Ray's" New Orleans Mailing List by sending: subscribe noml To: majordomo@communique.net /"\ \ / X ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML Usenet posts and e-mail / \ From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 06:26:36 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA09757; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 05:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA09749 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 05:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA03496 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24549 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:50:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:50:24 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: <19990104215122.A5291@gsp.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Rich Kulawiec wrote: > ... If the offense is sufficiently egregious, I simply report the > miscreant for abuse to their ISP/organization. ... If a luser trashes your list or commits some other major offense out of the blue, so be it. Take the matter up with their sysadmin. On the other hand, bating a newbie into a flame war which results in getting his account yanked is not my idea of a worthwhile endeavor. > For *you*, sure. But then all you have effectively done is teach > these idiots that (a) mailbombing the entire list or (b) pestering > the list admin *works*, instead of teaching them the right way. > This means that future list admins will have to deal with the > problem *you* have conveniently shifted onto their shoulders. Apparently, some of you presume that I do nothing to help people un$ubscribe themselves. This is not true. I send un$ubscribe instructions in the welcome message. I post instructions periodically to my lists. On my Lyris lists, every article and digest includes un$ubscribe instructions in the signature. I do my part inform and train $ubscribers how to remove themselves from the list. When I explain something in plain and simple terms and they still don't get it, I don't consider it worth my while to start a personal dialog. > Personally, I have higher regard for my colleagues, and so I try > to educate when possible and punish when necessary in order to try > to spare them (my colleagues) the effort. I am proud of you. How many times have you successfully trained a luser? How many times have you only sparked a flame war with an idiot? Years ago, I regularly attempted to give private lessons to lusers on how to un$ubscribe. Damned few of them were even slightly interested in learning anything. In my experience, I have found that private lessons are not a useful expenditure of effort. A very small percentage of my $ubscribers have difficulty leaving. The majority of un$ubscribes are automated removals of addresses which can not be reached. Dead accounts, filled mail boxes, missconfigured machines, etc. Of those who actively choose to leave, most un$ubscribe themselves with no problem. The few remaining who have trouble un$ubscribing themselves have made it clear by their actions that they are either unwilling or unable to learn. Why forestall the inevitable? Punt them and be done with it. Some list admins would rather spend their time arguing with a brick wall. Then they complain loudly about the time they have wasted. I choose not to beat my head against the wall. I simply open the door when someone asks. > If you want to take the expedient way out instead of doing the > right thing, that's your priviledge. I am doing the right thing for my lists. I'm also saving everyone involved a lot of grief. You are at liberty to do what you believe is right for your lists. I you want to argue with brain-dead $ubscribers and attempt to train them, be my guest. You may win a few converts. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 08:10:40 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA10984; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:40:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA10975 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa09732; 5 Jan 99 7:41 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 05 Jan 99 07:36:13 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 07:18:24 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > Try running a mailing list with a few hundred thousand net-naive > users. They're not too dumb. They may not be experienced, but they're > not dumb. I have to say that blaming the users is use as > tunnel-visioned as Murr's whitewash of administrators that don't > match up with his personal values. Both are overly simplistic and > don't match reality very well. Do you administer IQ tests to your "few hundred thousand" users? To those who come over to my lists? Do you know what they say about the intelligence of any animal which is given the tools and yet cannot perform a simple task up to borderline low standard? The term "dumb" is a release-valve pejorative. When John Madden says ol' Gomer Blycnik pulled a really dumb move in kicking his opponent after the whistle, he is making no final judgment about the man's intelligence. Likewise, I readily admit the few lusers who flail in my region (I have the Reply-To: set to the owner's account so I don't have to pick out the inevitable "hey d00d get me outta hear!"s) may know something about D&D or scifi mags which requires a bit of application. Yet in the one area that counts, the one that intersects with my own transit, thus the only encounter I shall (I hope) ever have with them, they are dumb as slugs. They have the clues, yet they remain clueless. For all intents and purposes, they are dumb, and a listowner had best proceed on that basis. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 13:11:25 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA14086; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA14079 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 12:18:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa02508; 5 Jan 99 12:19 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 05 Jan 99 12:10:22 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Tue, 05 Jan 99 11:52:40 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame writes: > I am proud of you. How many times have you successfully trained a > luser? Ah, here's the essence, right here. Ann Landers years ago gave an answer to a question about the pesky panhandler. She said, were I panhandled, I should take the gentleman to the nearest restaurant, pay the mai-tre d', and thus insure the gentleman did not use my contribution for drugs. She was serious. I'm seeing here a possible evidence of Liftoff Liberalism. I can't diagnose it yet, but I smell it. This is the type of fly-over functionary who has noble intentions and honorable mentions - and he also ain't down in the dirty. I can't make a living hosting a free forum, so I have to do something else most days. I wonder how someone who has thousands and thousands of visiters to their well-kept plantations can take the time and spend the energy educating all the lost, lorn lusers who pass his way? And, again, what are the results? Roses and sunshine and a bounce in the Net IQ of twenty points? I think someone without direct hands-on duties may perhaps be promoting ideals instead of publishing history. Polemics and platitudes in place of performance. I don't know, but I suspect strongly. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Tue Jan 5 17:13:31 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA18289; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA18282 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:52:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA32214 ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:57:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:53:29 -0800 To: Tim Bowden , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:52 AM -0800 1/5/99, Tim Bowden wrote: > I wonder how someone who has thousands and thousands > of visiters to their well-kept plantations can take the time and > spend the energy educating all the lost, lorn lusers who pass his > way? And, again, what are the results? Roses and sunshine and > a bounce in the Net IQ of twenty points? I come pretty close to this ideal. And my results are pretty good. The number of users I have to write of as the kind of luser people are complaining about is much smaller than the number of users who get into problems and help figuring things out by a large percentage. Good tools goes a low way towards keeping people from becoming lusers or trolls in the first place. So does a good attitude. My *job* is building systems that net-naive people can figure out. I have a ways to go, but we've made great strides. Ask me again in january 2000, and we'll see how my next couple of generations of improvements go. > I think someone without direct hands-on duties may perhaps be promoting > ideals instead of publishing history. Polemics and platitudes in place > of performance. I don't know, but I suspect strongly. While Murr is too busy and other people guess, I research this stuff. and if I try something that doesn't work, I throw it out and try something else. I don't blame the users. We've put a lot of custom work in around majordomo in terms of documentation, issue-directed help files, content filters and the like, things that specifically deal with issues users see, in ways users can use to resolve them. I'm not guessing when I open my mouth and start babbling. and no, none of this is written up yet. But once I get my staff, I'll make sure as much of it as I can does get out where others can chew on it. Unfortunately, right now, I'm still stuck in too-busy-writing-it mode. I spent the latter part of December building a list system that handles volume in the mid hundreds of thousands of subscribers, and is expected to triple its size this year, at least. These things might be rhetorical or philosophical issues for people like Murr. For me, it's the difference between doing my job right and drowning in the anguished screams of the users my systems screw over... Because I *do* read every piece of postmaster mail that comes in, and if it needs an answer, I answer it. And my systems are set up to cater to new users -- as Apple noted today at Macworld, hundred of thousands of iMacs are being sold by Apple to people who've never used the Internet before, and using them to get on the internet. And those are a key part of the audience of the lists I run for Apple. I can't afford intellectual snobbery, IQ tests before allowing these folks to sign up, or telling people to stick it if I don't like their attitude. They're customers, and this ain't a hobby. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 6 04:41:49 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA27968; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 04:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA27961 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 04:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA19011 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:54:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990106065411.A19005@gsp.org> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:54:11 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests References: <19990104215122.A5291@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Tue, Jan 05, 1999 at 08:50:24AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, Jan 05, 1999 at 08:50:24AM -0500, murr rhame wrote: > If a luser trashes your list or commits some other major offense out > of the blue, so be it. Take the matter up with their sysadmin. On > the other hand, bating a newbie into a flame war which results in > getting his account yanked is not my idea of a worthwhile endeavor. I don't bait people into flame wars because (a) I have better things to do with my time and (b) it's not fair. > Apparently, some of you presume that I do nothing to help people > un$ubscribe themselves. I presume nothing; I simply take what you have written here at face value, and no more. > I am doing the right thing for my lists. I'm also saving everyone > involved a lot of grief. I don't think that's true. I think you are simply postponing and shifting the grief, because the errant subscriber will do it again, inflicting the problem on other lists and other list managers. > You are at liberty to do what you believe is > right for your lists. I you want to argue with brain-dead $ubscribers > and attempt to train them, be my guest. You may win a few converts. Do I "want to"? No. I'm a busy person. So I don't "argue", per se. But I have a larger view than just my few lists, so I try to (as I said) to educate when possible and punish when necessary in order to solve the problem (subscriber ignorance) at the place and time when it manifests itself, instead of taking your approach, which is to bury it under the carpet and leave it for someone else to deal with. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Wed Jan 6 07:44:39 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA00140; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:19:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA00105 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com id aa07824; 6 Jan 99 7:20 PST Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 06 Jan 99 07:18:34 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 06:57:39 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > I come pretty close to this ideal. And my results are pretty good. > The number of users I have to write of as the kind of luser people > are complaining about is much smaller than the number of users who > get into problems and help figuring things out by a large percentage. Oh, I certainly agree that's true, from my own experience. I hope it's understood I have no reference to the needy neophyte. I have had compliments over the years for my earnest and eager assistance in the primary stages. A luser is after all a dedicated moron, a deliberate delinquent who breaks rules because they can't be truly enforced on the wires. I have as much patience as anyone for those willing to learn. I go back far enough (maybe some here have gritted teeth in about 1987 when I was one of those yearning yearlings bursting onto their systems) to realize some of my very best users today were flailers in the beginning. As were we all. I also mean no offense with my good-humored ribbing. > My *job* is building systems that net-naive people can figure out. > They're customers, and this ain't a hobby. It's like the Mars/Venus colloquy; we sometimes are at cross purposes because our objectives and the nature of the game differ. Some run systems with only a tech interest in the proceedings and no involvement in the actual subject matter of their lists, and others are treating with customers and it's a professional encounter, a job, whereas for me it's a private and very elaborate garden party where new friends and old are supposed to be tuned into the central event we convened to share. There's no wonder we disagree on the process. mailto:tcbowden@clovis.nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) Proud member of NERDNOSH (tm)! mailto:majordomo@story.nerdnosh org the command: subscribe nerdnosh From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 07:00:09 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA08473; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cantec.com (ns1.cantec.com [206.31.250.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA08466 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 06:36:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from www ([206.31.250.15]) by cantec.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3718200 ; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:38:28 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19990108143344.00f6e66c@cantec.com> X-Sender: dbigham@cantec.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:33:44 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Bigham Subject: List Server resource requirements Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I am looking for information on the resource requirements for various list managers. I am interested in what is needed for a fairly high volume list server in terms of hardware and operating system. What I would really like is to see comparisons of through-put, machine cycles, disk requirements and general operating schemes for the software itself. I would really like to see things along the lines of "X" list server can process "Y" number of 8K messages per hour using "Z" percent of the available machine cycles on a 300MHZ machine. It needs "A" megabytes of disk space to do this and requires "B" megabytes of main memory. This, rather than "M" list server really flys on a 300MHZ machine! Any help or direction is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Bigham From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 11:26:59 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11521; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA11514 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 670139 invoked by uid 3995); 8 Jan 1999 18:59:16 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <13974.21891.782856.560604@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 13:59:15 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Sill To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List Server resource requirements In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19990108143344.00f6e66c@cantec.com> References: <2.2.32.19990108143344.00f6e66c@cantec.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.53 under 21.0 "Norwegian" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >I am looking for information on the resource requirements for various list >managers. I am interested in what is needed for a fairly high volume list >server in terms of hardware and operating system. What I would really like >is to see comparisons of through-put, machine cycles, disk requirements and >general operating schemes for the software itself. I don't think anyone's done a good, quantitative comparison of list servers. It would be a lot of work, and the market for that information is pretty small. Heck, I've never seen a good comparison of MTA's--which would be about the same size job, but with a much larger market. >I would really like to see things along the lines of ... I would really like somebody to give me a few thousand dollars. That's the price range for the kind of information you're looking for. >... "X" list server can >process "Y" number of 8K messages per hour using "Z" percent of the >available machine cycles on a 300MHZ machine. It needs "A" megabytes of >disk space to do this and requires "B" megabytes of main memory. This, >rather than "M" list server really flys on a 300MHZ machine! Good luck finding those numbers. However, for most list servers, delivery performance and resource utilization is dominated by the performance and resource utilization of the MTA used to send the messages. I.e., the MTA selection is more important than the list server selection. Fast MTA's include: qmail, Postfix (beta), exim, and LSMTP ($). -Dave From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 13:09:58 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA13021; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from server1.fsonline.com (server1.fsonline.com [206.196.80.93]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA13014 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from fsonline.com ([206.196.80.94]) by server1.fsonline.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.56) with ESMTP id 383; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:25 -0600 Message-ID: <36966FFE.89663AE7@fsonline.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:52:14 -0600 From: "Jim O'Quinn" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5C-Caldera [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Bigham CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Server resource requirements References: <2.2.32.19990108143344.00f6e66c@cantec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I would really like to see things along the lines of "X" list server can > process "Y" number of 8K messages per hour using "Z" percent of the > available machine cycles on a 300MHZ machine. It needs "A" megabytes of > disk space to do this and requires "B" megabytes of main memory. This, > rather than "M" list server really flys on a 300MHZ machine! See: http://www.dev-null.com/lyris/bench I was able to manage 140k per/hr with dual P-II 233mhz. Don't have any recent benchmarks other than it takes 5 hours to mail 450k messages to the same list (the list has grown quite a bit) and the web server sits on the same system (takes about 1m hits per day). Jim > > Any help or direction is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance. > > Dave Bigham From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 15:39:16 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15248; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15214 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.69]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA25494 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:26:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by queernet.queernet.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA22426 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:26:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Tim Bowden cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless, Chutzpa, or both? You decide. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Tim Bowden wrote: > Christine Code writes: > > > Along comes a subscriber who uses a one-word alias instead of his > > name, confidentially mentioning that this is because he's so > > important in his extremely serious profession that his life would > > be at risk if he used his real name on the Net. > > This is a staple, I believe. Remember that the old cliche of the online > male adolescent with poor social skills is not a myth; there really are > plenty of them out there. And yet, and yet... I have had closeted several government employees, elected officials, and clergy on lists run here; I respect their wishes, and others', for this level of anonymity, as long as their identities, reasons for anonymity, and good intentions are known to ME. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 15:54:11 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15201; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15190 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA24361 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA02180 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:03:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990104140320.A1935@gsp.org> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 14:03:20 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from murr rhame on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:46:50AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:46:50AM -0500, murr rhame wrote: > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. Do the clueless have a right to mailbomb fellow list members with misdirected "unsubscribe" requests? > In my humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > request, is no better than a common spammer. That's complete, total, utter nonsense. Users who have *subscribed* to a mailing list have, by definition, solicited mail from it. That removes the "B" in "UBE" (unsolicited bulk email, the correct technical term for spam) and means mailing list traffic sent to them is most assuredly not UBE. Internet users who cannot handle the procedures for subscribing and unsubscribing to mailing lists should avoid using them until such time as they learn. Those procedures are simple, incredibly well documented, and frequently presented to them in the footers of *every* *single* *message* sent to a mailing list. If they cannot cope with that, then they are too stupid to use the Internet and fully deserve whatever inconvenience trying to do so causes them. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 16:24:22 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15364; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15356 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.96.87]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA11345 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 08:12:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 99 11:15:23 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: why me? Organization: SADARM SPICE Team, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9901051115.aa24701@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sigh. Sorry, I just had to forward this one along. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html ----- Forwarded message # 1: Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:28:46 -0500 From: some user X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Subject: Re: ERROR: Your mail to the Info-LabVIEW mailing list References: <9901051023.aa24272@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------36B1EBC52F2A9EC91CD5EAAE" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------36B1EBC52F2A9EC91CD5EAAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So in other words I have to reconfigure my email program to suit your list? When are you planning on fixing this problem? Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: > Your mail, submitted to the Info-LabVIEW mailing list, is being returned > to you. It was trapped by one of our list filters - in this case, one which > noted the presence of a 'vcard' in your message. > > Please reconfigure your mailer (almost certainly Netscape) to NOT send > these attachments and resubmit your msg to info-labview@pica.army.mil. > > If you feel you have received this automated response in error, please send > a note to the address below for assistance. > > Thanks! > > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html [snip] ----- End of forwarded messages From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 16:39:30 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15280; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15254 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from rina.torah.org (rina.torah.org [207.239.101.206]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA25775 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (brozen@localhost) by rina.torah.org (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id PAA32707; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:54:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:54:00 +0200 (IST) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: Brock Rozen To: murr rhame cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Backup: Disable X-URL: http://www2.torah.org/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My question is why a list admin, who provides a free service, and subscribed the clueless willingly, has an obligation to put in more time to unsubscribe that person? One could make an argument saying that if the list admin doesn't have time to handle these requests, they shouldn't run a list. My response would be to say that the clueless should think twice before subscribing. Rather than saying it's an obligation of a list admin to take people off, I'd say it's a nice thing to do. Note, this is only when the list is free for subscription and the person has willingly subscribed. I think my argument is only stronger when the list admin is overworked. On my site we've actually hired somebody to handle these requests (and we're a non-profit org) -- but I would certainly say that we're not required to do that. BR On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, murr rhame wrote: > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. > You may run the best durn mailing list on the net. If the person > receiving your fine mailing list doesn't want it, it's still junk-mail. > I don't care if they willingly asked for the $ubscription. I don't > care if they refuse to read the instructions. When they want out, I > punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my > humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > request, is no better than a common spammer. > > > - murr - > -- Brock Rozen brozen@torah.org Director of Technical Services (410)358-9800 Project Genesis http://www.torah.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 16:54:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15571; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15561 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from izzy6.izzy.net (izzy6.izzy.net [206.84.176.178]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA11703 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (from UUatbbs@localhost) by izzy6.izzy.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) id XAA05722 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:33:31 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: izzy6.izzy.net: UUatbbs set sender to dbsmith@atbbs.com using -f >Received: by atbbs.com (0.99.970109) id AA03375; 06 Jan 99 23:33:32 -0500 From: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith) Date: 06 Jan 99 21:32:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Message-ID: <483_9901062333@atbbs.com> References: <19990104215122.A5291@gsp.org> <19990106065411.A19005@gsp.org> Organization: American Tune BBS * Ypsilanti Twp MI To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk \RK>From: Rich Kulawiec RK>Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests RK>> You are at liberty to do what you believe is RK>> right for your lists. I you want to argue with brain-dead $ubscribers RK>> and attempt to train them, be my guest. You may win a few converts. RK>Do I "want to"? No. I'm a busy person. So I don't "argue", per se. RK>But I have a larger view than just my few lists, so I try to (as I said) RK>to educate when possible and punish when necessary in order to solve the RK>problem (subscriber ignorance) at the place and time when it manifests RK>itself, instead of taking your approach, which is to bury it under RK>the carpet and leave it for someone else to deal with. I think it comes down to what one believes is the real purpose of the list. Take my "Deathlaw" list, for example. The purpose of the list is discussion of laws relating to death. I'm sure there are lists that have as their purpose teaching people how maillist technology works. But that's -not- the purpose of my list. Extended debates with folks about how they oughta be doing their own un$ubscribing doesn't contribute anything to a discussion of the relationship between death and law. Teaching folks how to use the list, however laudable, doesn't either. The discussion is -the- purpose of the list. I would prefer that the users deal with those mechanisms themselves. But if doing it for them (from time to time) prevents interference with the purpose of the list, then that's what I'll do. If asked nicely, I'll explain. If not, I'd just as soon cut them off myself. * SLMR 2.1a * We'll find the good in you yet Angelique... = Pixie -- >> David B. Smith | Email sysop@atbbs.com, dbsmith@izzy.net >> Sysop, American Tune BBS | DISCLAIMER: Hey, I -own- the place! >> Anyway, my views are sometimes not even my own, much less anyone else's. >> Host of DEATHLAW Maillist. "Subscribe deathlaw" to listserv@atbbs.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 17:09:27 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15300; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:06:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15289 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from rapidnet.com (ns1.rapidnet.com [205.164.216.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA29813 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:07:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from neatnettricks.com (pt7-26.rapidnet.com [208.142.248.89]) by rapidnet.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA23547; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 19:08:05 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <369173FE.2590006A@neatnettricks.com> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 19:07:58 -0700 From: Jack Teems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dr. Rob Higgins" CC: murr rhame , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I believe I'd have to come down on Rob's side on this one. When we subscribe to mail lists as (mostly) intelligent adults, we take on the responsibility of knowing how to remove ourselves from the same list, along with a few other simple commands that are available to us by the automated list server. Beyond that argument, I think those who will readily agree to do everything for the subscriber manually are likely owners of a fairly small list and can devote the time to each such request. Try to be that generous when you have 27,000+ readers on the line. I will still unsub manually but only after they show me they've exerted a fairly reasonable adult effort to do it for themselves. Dr. Rob Higgins wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, murr rhame wrote: > > > punt them immediately. No questions asked. No silly games. In my > > humble opinion, a list admin who doesn't un$ubscribe someone on > > request, is no better than a common spammer. > > Oh sure! I'm a spammer. Thank you. > Your philosophy is correct and a bunch of us are > common spammers. Gee, pretty hard to focus on the real > spammers if you're going to confuse the issue like that. > > Why are mailing lists are automated? > > Answer: because otherwise they would absorb too much > human time and therefore many of them could not > be offered as a free public service. > > ---rob--- %% virted, soho-can & webmaster-l list facilitator %% > > Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D. | ~ ~ ~ GYMNASIA VIRTUALES ~ ~ ~ > CyberCorp Inc. | GymVCOW - http://www.cybercorp.net/COW > rhiggins@cybercorp.net | GymVMOO - http://www.cybercorp.net/GymVMOO > http://www.cybercorp.net | GymVCourses - http://www.cybercorp.net/gymv -- - NEAT NET TRICKS is a light-hearted not too technical collection of computer and internet tips, distributed free twice-monthly by EMail. To subscribe, Email majordomo@neatnettricks.com and indicate 'subscribe neatnettricks' in the message (without quotes.) Visit the web site at http://www.neatnettricks.com for more information. From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 17:24:15 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA16971; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA16964 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:42:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.1/8.9.0/best.sh) id QAA05601; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:44:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:44:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901090044.QAA05601@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (rogerk@QueerNet.ORG) Subject: Anonymity Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:26:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" > Christine Code writes: > > Along comes a subscriber who uses a one-word alias instead of his > > name, confidentially mentioning that this is because he's so > > important in his extremely serious profession that his life would > > be at risk if he used his real name on the Net. And yet, and yet... I have had closeted several government employees, elected officials, and clergy on lists run here; I respect their wishes, and others', for this level of anonymity, as long as their identities, reasons for anonymity, and good intentions are known to ME. Good point, though somewhat of a different subject. I think Christine was speaking about people who make a point of telling everyone on the list (or at least the listowner) how great and important they are. Ego fix, etc. There certainly are legit reasons for anonymity. I encourage people on my lists to post from free-email accounts or otherwise hide their full identity if they choose. I only care about someone's real identity in the case of severe harressment, threats, etc (very rare but it has happened). Some of my subscribers are involved in lawsuits against their employers or various companies or agencies. Some are trying to get workers comp cases settled or disability insurance payouts. They need to be able to be anonymous, and I allow it. The flip side is that some of my subscribers are company "spies" (one known case of this--a manager on the list to see what several employees who had been poisoned at work were saying about their health and workplace) and certainly others are from government agencies, companies, etc. It's fairly easy to tell the difference between true and fake reasons for anonymity though... The true cases merely post without giving their full (or real) name. Sometimes they'll mention it in the course of a post (often to apoligize for not giving the name of their employer, for example) but they don't dwell on it. The fake cases brag about being anon and make a huge deal about how impressed you would be if you only knew who they were. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.consultclarity.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 17:39:08 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15182; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15172 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA24174 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:46:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.1/8.9.0/best.sh) id KAA14710; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:47:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:47:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901041847.KAA14710@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:46:50 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Murr, I agree with you in principle. I'll give someone who asks to be unsubscribed the directions but, if they can't handle them, I'll manually unsubscribe them. My list is for disabled people and a lot of them have the symptom of "brain fog" or cognitive processing problems. I do try to walk them through the directions because I believe that will help them in the future (if they understand basic computer info they'll be better equiped to understand the next mailing list system they come across...and it's a service to other list owners as well). BUT, I'm on Christine's side with her case of "Mr. Important." I've known people like that. Had them on my list. I do not unsubscribe people who demand to be removed from my horrible list because because they're mad at a decision I made. Most of them never leave...they calm down and become productive subscribers again. The few that don't, unsubscribe themselves. I often spend much more time explaining the unsubscription process to one person than I would in just unsubscribing everyone who asked. But I consider it time well spent. I don't mind helping people who want the help. And I don't cater to people who don't bother to learn techincal information because it's somehow beneath them. Nor do I choose to pander to people who could unsubscribe themselves but tell (not ask) me to because they are making a grand statement. No thanks. I provide clear directions upon request. The same directions go out automatically with every new subscription. Differently worded, but also clear, directions are on my website (linked directly from the main page). Unsubscribe directions are at the bottom of every post (along with the website URL and my email address). And anyone who writes me with a question gets my help (even the Mr. Importants of the world). I really don't see how anyone could construe this in a negative light. You can be helpful (even way beyond helpful) without sucking up your pride and taking orders from the Mr. Importants. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.consultclarity.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 17:54:16 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15317; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15306 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:06:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.235.116.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA00512 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from tpad.squawk.com (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23304; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:51:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990104205129.036a9e90@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 20:51:29 -0800 To: Alan Thew From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Un$unsubscribe Requests Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:10 PM 1/4/99 +0000, Alan Thew is said to have written: >On Mon, 4 Jan 1999, Tim Bowden wrote: > >> murr rhame writes: >> >> > I manually un$ubscribe anyone who asks to leave, no matter how poorly >> > the attempt is made. Unwanted email is unwanted email. Even the >> > clueless have a right not to get unsolicited junk in their mail box. The clueless have figured out how to get on to a mailing list that takes a two step process to get on. My general finding is that someone will tell me, "I've tried unsubscribing five times, and it has never worked." I log all mail to majordomo and all aliases of majordomo. I frequently look at these logs and find that these folks are liars. The typical person has tried unsubscribing once, misspelled the word "unsubscribe", and can't be bothered to work out anything else. I get tired of liars and I get tired of idiots who abuse the lists I run. One person simply started forwarding entire digests to the list because, as she put it, in private e-mail, "posting big stuff always gets me kicked off of lists I'm no longer interested in - it is easier than figuring out how to unsubscribe." It is stuff like this that makes running mailing lists for nothing so rewarding. I put a click on URL in every header that will format the unsubscribe mail for them if their mailer supports body=unsubscribe on a mailto URL, and manual instructions in every footer. If someone can follow the two step majordomo instructions to subscribe, but can't follow the much simpler instructions to unsubscribe, I have little sympathy for them. I consider unsub requests posted to the list rude and abusive, and I filter them and ignore them. I will answer requests for info or help with changed e-mail addresses to the -approval aliases, but I consider the comment that "it might be illegal to forge e-mail from an old address that you are still getting mail forwarded to you from" to be ludicrous. If the mail is still being forwarded to them, it is still their e-mail address. -- That which does not kill us, makes us stronger. That which does kill us makes us smell stronger, after a few days, anyway. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com or (last choice) mailto:njs@us.ibm.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 18:09:12 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15113; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id PAA15103 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifolk.iserver.net (ifolk.iserver.net [192.41.44.203]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA20405 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from patroon ([160.43.47.9]) by ifolk.iserver.net (8.8.5) id GAA23430; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 06:33:03 -0700 (MST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: aliases and leave requests Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:33:29 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be37e6$d0878260$037b7b0a@patroon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199901040900.BAA14499@honor.greatcircle.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christine Code , in an article with whose general tenor I otherwise agree, says: > Along comes a subscriber who uses a one-word alias instead of his > name, confidentially mentioning that this is because he's so > important in his extremely serious profession that his life would > be at risk if he used his real name on the Net. (My "we have an > idiot" bells start going off at this point.) It may be a bit lame to insist on a CB-type "handle" as your alias, but I do know people who don't want their real identities visible on the Net for legitimate reasons. Let's put it this way, when you read in the paper how a Tom Hanks or a Chelsea Clinton or [insert prominent person here] is either "just discovering" email and the Net, or surfs and chats and sends all the time, or whatever - of course they are using aliases. And there are people who "borrow" their Net fix off their temp jobs, who need to do some whistle blowing at their toxic waste plant, etc. Sometimes you have to use an alias. Then you decide to join the Begonia Growers list so your wife can download growing tips, and some little tinpot listserv autocrat tells you "We insist on real names only here on Begonia Growers!" :) Right. Hand me the obituary page hon... > Mr Important has a hissy fit, demands he be unsubscribed. In > response, he gets a polite letter which includes the "how to > unsubscribe" directions. Ah, but he doesn't want to unsubscribe > himself - he's far too important for that! So instead he he > mail-bombs the list with about 100 massive messages (all forwards > of previous digests with nasty notes attached) and gets quite > pissed off when his ISP tells him he'd better stop violating > their user services agreement. :-) I get those too, and of course if someone listbombs for any reason it's the instant death penalty - but after a lot of experience, I do tend to remove people who ask for it, even if they should have remembered how. My lists have a -leave alias, which isn't generally going to be transferrable to other lists, so it's not like I'm doing them any big favor in life by shipping them more instructions when they just want off. I do a nightly roster on all my lists, and pass each one through a filter than makes a little private web page listing all the addresses, with two buttons next to each address: Mailto and Unsub. If someone wants off (or earns it), they're gone in one click. There are Web based mailing list management interfaces out there that give the same effect. From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 21:24:44 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA21368; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:16:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21361 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA40248 ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:21:11 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000001be37e6$d0878260$037b7b0a@patroon> References: <199901040900.BAA14499@honor.greatcircle.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:09:49 -0800 To: "Tom Neff" , From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: aliases and leave requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:33 AM -0500 1/4/99, Tom Neff wrote: > It may be a bit lame to insist on a CB-type "handle" as your alias, but I do > know people who don't want their real identities visible on the Net for > legitimate reasons. Fine. Go get a hotmail account, and use that to read/post to the list. There's absolutely no reason you have to, as a list admin, make special dispensation to someone to keep their ID private. They can do that themselves. In fact, they do, without telling you in the first place. Now, having said that, my policy is simple -- my subscription lists are private and avaialble to nobody. Which means nobody will know you're on the list until you post on the list and say so, because I and none of my other admins will give out that information. But if you want to post anonymously, then go get a hotmail or juno or yahoo, or.... (name any of a dozen remailers) account and use that. Of course, if I catch someone doing that and shilling for something, that's a different fight, and one the person involved won't like. There's nothing quite so slimy in my mind as someone who hides their identity to flog an agenda of some sort, where if it was known who was doing it their attachment to that agenda would be known. > alias. Then you decide to join the Begonia Growers list so your wife can > download growing tips, and some little tinpot listserv autocrat tells you > "We insist on real names only here on Begonia Growers!" :) Fine. so make up a name, attach it to your hotmail account, and give it to the admin. If necessary, hack your voicemail with the fake name and have him call your phone number to verify it. It's false security, folks. (actually, if I were admin, I don't care who your name is. I care that I can actually track you down if I need to through your admins, which is why I allow hotmail postings and not juno postings or anonymous remailer postings. But if I did insist on real names, I can't see a case like Chelsea where I wouldn't in a blink approve a fake ID in this case. But honestly, that I'll make an exception for this doesn't mean a thing. 90% or more of the "demands" for this are bogus, and the primary uses of these "tools" are to flame, troll and abuse. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 21:40:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA21316; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:13:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from msa.attmil.ne.jp (ns.misawa.attmil.ne.jp [165.76.26.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA21292 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:12:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from msw0.attnet.or.jp (41.pool1.misawa.attmil.ne.jp [165.76.27.56]) by msa.attmil.ne.jp (8.8.8+Spin/3.6Wbeta7-CONS(12/07/98)) id OAA10344; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:14:26 +0900 (JST) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:14:11 +0900 From: Leif Gregory X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.19) S/N 90798968 Reply-To: Leif Gregory Organization: VBOK X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <18593.990109@biogate.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re[2]: Un$ubscribe Requests References: <19990104140320.A1935@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich, Comments interpolated with quoted message. A 10K brain attached to a 9600 baud mouth. ------------------------------ ------------------------------------- | Leif Gregory | Virtual Book Of Knowledge web site | | Editor, VBOK newsletter | | | Moderator, TBUDL | ICQ UIN: 216395 | ------------------------------ ------------------------------------- | VBOK is a free newsletter for newbies and the advanced user with | | articles, web site/software reviews, security, news and much more! | -------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday, January 05, 1999, at 4:03 AM you wrote: -- Begin Quote -- RK> Do the clueless have a right to mailbomb fellow list members with RK> misdirected "unsubscribe" requests? I totally agree with you here. I had one guy whose sole purpose in subscribing was to post racist remarks, and then he tried to bail (it was a long story). Of course he was trying to unsubscribe incorrectly even though each message coming from the list explicitly stated how to unsubscribe. He then tried flooding the list with garbage messages, so I filtered his posts to trash, while leaving him subscribed. When he finally apologized, I removed him from the list. I do not have any problems with removing people from my lists when they seem to be unable to do so themselves, as long as they are polite! If you're an ass, you'll get no help from me. RK> That's complete, total, utter nonsense. RK> Users who have *subscribed* to a mailing list have, by definition, RK> solicited mail from it. That removes the "B" in "UBE" (unsolicited RK> bulk email, the correct technical term for spam) and means mailing RK> list traffic sent to them is most assuredly not UBE. Again, I agree with you (with exception to removal of 'B' as opposed to 'U') . RK> Internet users who cannot handle the procedures for subscribing RK> and unsubscribing to mailing lists should avoid using them until RK> such time as they learn. Those procedures are simple, incredibly RK> well documented, and frequently presented to them in the footers RK> of *every* *single* *message* sent to a mailing list. If they cannot RK> cope with that, then they are too stupid to use the Internet and RK> fully deserve whatever inconvenience trying to do so causes them. I do disagree with you here though. Everyone is a newbie at one time or another, whether it be in fixing cars, subscribing to MLs, or even tying your shoes! At one time, someone probably helped you learn and most likely bailed you out when you really got stuck (such as triple knotting your tennies .) Like I stated above, if a person is polite and is really 'trying' to learn I'll bend over backwards for them, but if you're an ass, you might as well just cancel your ISP subscription. RK> Rich Kulawiec RK> rsk@gsp.org -- End Quote -- From list-managers-owner Fri Jan 8 22:12:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA22071; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA22040 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA18120 ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:05:46 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <483_9901062333@atbbs.com> References: <19990104215122.A5291@gsp.org> <19990106065411.A19005@gsp.org> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:49:57 -0800 To: dbsmith@atbbs.com (David B. Smith), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$ubscribe Requests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:32 PM -0500 1/6/99, David B. Smith wrote: > Extended debates with folks about how they oughta be doing their own > un$ubscribing doesn't contribute anything to a discussion of the > relationship between death and law. Teaching folks how to use the list, > however laudable, doesn't either. The discussion is -the- purpose of > the list. That's why I do all of this via private mail, and if it pops up on a list, take it private as quickly as I can. I also step heavily on these meta-topics, which sometimes upsets folks, but you're right. Lists are for the topic, not meta-discussions about the list the topic is for. And I get the occasional REAL idiot who insists on answering my private e-mail ON the list, but those trolls prove themselves out really quickly. And I have, in fact, been known to delete a person's POSTING priviledge while we contintue to discuss fine points of netiquette privately. But you have to be a really nasty troll for me to pull that one. That's not my normal operation. > I would prefer that the users deal with those mechanisms themselves. > But if doing it for them (from time to time) prevents interference with > the purpose of the list, then that's what I'll do. > > If asked nicely, I'll explain. If not, I'd just as soon cut them off > myself. My policy is really simple. My lists are self-protected from the usual administrivia. A user has to work REALLY hard to actually get one of those requests through to the list. usually, one of my filters catches it and sends a nice note back on how to do it right. Most of the time, the next thing I see on my system is the proper unsub command, and it's all over. If it *does* in fact get through, amusingly enough, each message has the unsub instructions on it. Most users who haven't noticed those instructions BEFORE then notice them on that instruction, and that's it (I find that an interesting side effect, by the way. But in general, putting the information in a footer has more or less made this problem go away for me. I have very little administrative thrashing any more) If they send mail to postmaster/etc, they get a mailbot back that points out this isn't how unsubs are done, gives them the info on how to do it, and tells them what to do if they can't make it work right. In my case, the "secret password" is including copies of the attempt to unzubscribe (or whatever) and the returned messages, so I can see what's going on. If I just get the blind "unzubscribe", I let the mailbot answer it. If the user includes the attempt, I'll generally take care of it for them. Ditto if the user is clearly upset/angry/frustrated, because I'm here to be helpful, not anal about following instructions. This seems like a solid tradeoff between encouraging users to help themselves and turning this into a trivia contest with the users freedom as the prize. It also gives me wonderful feedback on where users are getting sideways in the system, confused by the daemon, lost in the documentation, or whatever. So if I start seeing trends in the errors, I can focus on improving THAT problem and make it go away. It's been quite useful in cutting error rates, although I'm not done. Right now, my servers are averaging between 1,500 and 2,000 successful subscriptions for every "this server is too damn hard to use" complaint, and that's not a bad percentage. I've got three major projects left in the server make-it-easy projects, and then I think it'll be about as easy as I can make it based on what I know now. FWIW, here are what I think are the key improvements people can make to reduce user hassle. Unfortunately, this more or less requires the ability to whack at the daemon level. If you just admin a list that's run on a server managed by someone else, a lot if out of your control here. My daemon is majordomo, and it's effectively vanilla. A couple of minor patches, but I've consciously avoided whacking at the source. Instead, I've built around it. 1) listname-zubscribe and listname-unzubscribe addresses. On my system, these actually talk to perl scripts that suck the email address out of the header and format mail commands FOR the user -- so that a blank mailto: message is okay. Cut out the zubscribe jargon completely. On the plus side, it makes the web interface pretty simple, "click this link and send the message to subscribe". It assumes that they (or *someone*) has configured their mail client correctly. I find this to be a LOT more reliable than asking them what their address is. Really. 2) unzubscribe-all address. Basically, a panic button. Very useful. Very simple. Just remaps into an "unzubscribe *" request for the address it was mailed from. The only bad side of this is that "unzub *" is amazingly expensive computationally. I've experimented with alternative front ends, but they're not much better so far. My answer right now is to stuff these into a special sendmail queue so only one is being processed at a time so they don't clog my other processing. 3) unzub/help info in the footer of every message, and header of ever digest. I don't even bother with monthly help files or other regular postings any more; my user studies have shown pretty conclusively they're useless. Users tune them out, so I don't waste bandwidth any more. 4) Every list alias (and the majordomo alias itself) is front-ended by procmail, where I've scripted a whole bunch of safety checks and other tests. I've got pretty solid protection against vacation messages and mail-loops-from-hell, I have certain naughty word restrictions (and some of them turn out to be non-trivial. Just ask Igor Livshits). I have a blackhole, a greyhole (the difference being whether you get a polite "go away" or not), and a no-posting test. And the administrivia tests. And a bunch of other stuff. But basically, all of the common stuff that ought to be trapped out of the lists is, to keep it off the lists. 5) situational-specific help files. The only thing I've found is *more* useless to the typical user than the "monthly help file" is to send a message to the daemon, get it wrong, and get sent back a 10K "help file" where the user (who's already confused, lost, naive, irritated, frustrated or all of the above) has to guess where in the help file the answer to his question is. So I've simply written a bunch of filters that catch as many of these errors as possible, and say "here's what you did wrong. Here's how you should do this. Here's where the help files are for more information. here's how to contact a human being" (One could argue that if I'm smart enough to catch it, I ought to fix it and do it for them. this is a religious argument, and both sides are probably right. Religiously, I'm on the "give the man a fish and he'll starve next week, teach them to fish and he'll invite you over to dinner for some nice halibut" school. I won't argue. No need to fight with me on this, I won't change my mind, you don't need to change yours) I can't over-emphasize the situational stuff enough. If the user knew the answer, they wouldn't need help. And simply tossing the majordomo help file at them isn't answering their question. they probably got that already, and it didn't help them the first time. And if you can teach your list serer to ANSWER their question, you don't have to. But you have to answer the question, not just toss a big glob of help text at them. The two biggest problems I have these days are changed (and third party) addresses, and the majordomo mailback authorization stuff. These are intertwined -- users want to zubscribe aliases, hotmail addresses, etc to lists, but it's a fine line between this and allowing spammers to forge-zubscribe other addresses. Right now, I'm taking a fairly strict line on this (and it only affects under 1% of my users, based on the complaints I get), because I'm real sensitive to the spam issues, thanks to the well-meaning but truly brain-cramped Apple supporters who thinks the answer to every guy who says "macs suck" on IRC is subscribe them to a hundred pro-Macintosh lists. No thanks, I get tired of cleaning up after the kids. The biggest single problem *I* have today is that 40% of my potential subscribers never respond to the mailback validation request. If they *do* respond, the error rate is quite low (about 2%), but that's too many dropouts for my taste. so I'm designing systems that'll be secure, but easier to use. And which, as a side effect, will completely allow the alias and hotmail addresses without opening up spamholes. (bad news for some, it'll be both mac-based and web-based. Good news for me, there's so little no-web-based subscription traffic for my stuff now that this isn't a problem....) That and the endless (it seems) need to keep revising documentation to keep ahead of the typoes that seem to magically creep in at night.... -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Sat Jan 9 06:27:08 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA01902; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA01895 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:55:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01036 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12507 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:57:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Anonymity In-Reply-To: <199901090044.QAA05601@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Assuming a list admin doesn't formally investigate the identity of every subscriber, in most cases it would be fairly easy to $ubscribe anonymously. I'll wager that on typical lists, anyone who offers a plausible real name would be admitted. Rather than choosing a conspicuous handle like "Captain Zork" you can just as easily choose a a more realistic alias like "Fred Harrison" or "Jane Stokes". I'm sure there are a few lists which require confirmed identities. For typical mailing lists, it's fairly easy to obtain some masking of you true identity. In some cases, real names can raise an eyebrow. For example, my real name is John Murr Rhame, Jr. I go by Murr both off line and on the net. Didn't make it up. Murr is on my birth certificate. - murr - From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 10 00:14:03 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA14685; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA14677 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [207.167.80.66]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA22048 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from (zamboni.plaidworks.com [207.167.80.70]) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA18130 ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:05:49 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990104205129.036a9e90@127.0.0.1> References: Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:56:30 -0800 To: Nick Simicich , Alan Thew From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Un$unsubscribe Requests Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:51 PM -0800 1/4/99, Nick Simicich wrote: > The clueless have figured out how to get on to a mailing list that takes a > two step process to get on. > > My general finding is that someone will tell me, "I've tried unsubscribing > five times, and it has never worked." This is why I ask for copies of the errors. It's a way of forcing them to actually DO it, without actually having to point out I keep logs (I'm even more anal about logging mail traffic than Nick is) and getting in their faces. I don't HAVE to accuse them of lying, so we can (usually) avoid most of the confrontation. Confronting users doesn't create anything positive. I've (finally) learned that life is too short to get too worked up about this stuff. Lots of times allowing someone to save a little face saves a huge amount of hassle, because most of these folks aren't trolls, they're lost, frustrated and already embarassed. > One person simply started > forwarding entire digests to the list because, as she put it, in private > e-mail, "posting big stuff always gets me kicked off of lists I'm no longer > interested in - it is easier than figuring out how to unsubscribe." That's why my filters trap this stuff and simply sends it back with a polite note. Automatically -- and it doesn't get onto the list to annoy my users, ad doesn't get to me where it annoys me. My mailbots don't get annoyed, so we don't CARE how ofte they send that stuff to them. I've seen users try this up to about half a dozen times before figuring it out. Usually if they get that far, the next message gets caught by my naughty word filter, and the other users STILL never know anything's going on. It's amazing how much work some users will put into so they can be lazy about this stuff. But that doesn't mean you have to cooperate. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + Featuring Winslow Leach at the Piano! From list-managers-owner Sun Jan 10 18:46:48 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA29716; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:31:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (scifi.squawk.com [208.235.116.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA29709 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 18:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tpad.squawk.com (root@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15524; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:33:30 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990110213158.03a2ee50@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:31:58 -0500 To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: why me? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9901051115.aa24701@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, vcards is one of the many bits of mime cruft that demime trashes. http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html At 11:15 AM 1/5/99 EST, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: >Sigh. Sorry, I just had to forward this one along. > > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html > >----- Forwarded message # 1: > >Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 10:28:46 -0500 >From: some user >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer >Subject: Re: ERROR: Your mail to the Info-LabVIEW mailing list >References: <9901051023.aa24272@fsm-1.fsm-1.pica.army.mil> >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; > boundary="------------36B1EBC52F2A9EC91CD5EAAE" > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >--------------36B1EBC52F2A9EC91CD5EAAE >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >So in other words I have to reconfigure my email program to suit your list? When are you planning on fixing this problem? > >Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: > >> Your mail, submitted to the Info-LabVIEW mailing list, is being returned >> to you. It was trapped by one of our list filters - in this case, one which >> noted the presence of a 'vcard' in your message. >> >> Please reconfigure your mailer (almost certainly Netscape) to NOT send >> these attachments and resubmit your msg to info-labview@pica.army.mil. >> >> If you feel you have received this a