From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 1 02:36:59 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA06518; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk (euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk [138.250.48.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA06511 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from neumann.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk ([138.250.24.137] ident=cc047) by euler.central.cranfield.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10zd6S-00071U-00; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 10:25:56 +0100 Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:40:14 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@neumann.ccc.cranfield.ac.uk Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Identifying lists in headers - was Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > and if anyone can think about how to build a unique name space across > the entire internet for mailing lists [...] unique even if it moves > hosts, I'm open for discussion. "Pick" a random 128bit number. If you use a good system (cryptographically strong) for picking the numbers the chances of coincidence are vanishingly small. But I agree with your other point. On the rare occassions when lists change hosts the members of the list will need to know about it anyway for unsubscription information at lest, they can update their filters then. So, it is not clear whether there really is a need for IDs that will remain constant for all time under all circumstances. List archivers might like it however. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 1 04:52:55 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA09910; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from portal.aeat.co.uk (portal.aeat.co.uk [151.182.136.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id EAA09902 for ; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 04:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by portal.aeat.co.uk; id MAA13171; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:43:56 +0100 Received: from smtp-sweep-1.harwell.aeat.co.uk(151.182.136.197) via SMTP by portal-internal, id smtpdAAAa003Cl; Thu Jul 1 12:43:47 1999 Received: from aeat.co.uk (unverified) by smtp-sweep-1.harwell.aeat.co.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with SMTP id ; Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:43:38 +0100 Received: from hexagon.harwell.aeat.co.uk by aeat.co.uk with ESMTP (8.9.1/AEAT-GW-1.18) id MAA29525; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:38:43 +0100 (BST) sender John.Lines for Received: from hexagon.harwell.aeat.co.uk (jlines@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hexagon.harwell.aeat.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id MAA31837; Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:38:43 +0100 Message-Id: <199907011138.MAA31837@hexagon.harwell.aeat.co.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 (debian) To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Identifying lists in headers - was Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:49:22 PDT." MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 12:38:42 +0100 From: John Lines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > At 3:50 PM +0100 6/30/99, John Lines wrote: > > > I would like to see a standard header for all mailing lists, for example: > > > > List-name: list-managers > > > > which I could rely on to filter lists. > > > > RFC 2369 (accessible from the above URL). Some lists support this. > Some don't, but it's going to be the emerging standard (I expect all > of my lists to support it RSN). > > There is a second standard, the List-ID standard, which is also > affiliated to this and which lists ought to consider supporting. If > they exist, they answer your issue. If they don't, there are any The List-ID standard looks like the thing I was looking for. Having a virtual domain name built into the name of the list (or using the unmanaged list name space) seems a good idea, as it decouples the list from the actual host which provides it, and from the particular mailing list software. (Lists, particularly newly created lists, do move from host to host within a domain) If you think your list might move between service providers you could still register a virtual domain for your list (e.g. hockey-players-list.com) which would be able to move with you (I know this is unlikely in your case) > number of other ways to determine lists. My lists all go out with an > appropriate Sender: header, and that's what I encourage my users to > filter by in my list documentation. But you can usually find some Most of my filtering is done by Sender, and I am pleased to hear that you tell your users how to filter in the list documentation. Most lists dont provide any advice in filtering, which is why they get so much traffic asking for the list name to appear in the Subject header. > string that will guarantee it's a list posting, even if we're not yet > at the point where the mail client can automatically determine > whether a list exists 100% of the time. Setting up a filter for each > list is a trivial exercise... Trivial for me, as I use a proper mail system - not so trivial for the millions who have to use a proprietary mail system. I have just fired up my Groupwise client and all it will filter on is Subject, From, To, Cc and Message contents. Outlook is similar, ccmail is worse. If a List-Id specification became standard then we could pressure the mail system vendors to support it. One of the big growth areas is in group working tools - I think the user of the future will see named streams of information which they will turn on and off and not care too much about how they arrive at their system. (I see no-one has mentioned Newsgroups in the List-Id spec - maybe there should be provision for mailing lists which are gatewayed to/from newsgroups ??) John Lines List-Id document - From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 3 14:05:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA15882; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id NAA15874 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.rev.net (mercury.rev.net [206.67.68.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA06073 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bernie.rev.net (admin2.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mercury.rev.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA22180 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:46:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199906291146.HAA22180@mercury.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Roanoke Electronic Village To: Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:46:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Reply-to: bernie@rev.net In-reply-to: <199906290409.VAA08264@smtp.pacifier.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 28 Jun 99, at 21:09, Charles Bruce, Stewart wrote: > Sorting is immensely simplified by the use of subject prefixes. UGH. I hate subject prefixes. Could you explain what is made better by using subject prefixes rather than just selecting on Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM ??? > well it could make tha difference between my being able to stay on this fine list here or not, > & I imagine the same is true with others. I would doubt it --- I would think that most folk for whom email- traffic-flow is a problem or consideration would have long-since mastered the filtering/sorting machinery of their mail client, no? and such mastery renders using list-prefixes irrelevant [the case is slightly different for _subject_ prefixes, where what you have, in essence, is several mailing lists siamesed onto one, and the subject- prefixes distinguish traffic among the various "sublists"] /Bernie -- Bernie Cosell Roanoke Electronic Village mailto:bernie@rev.net Roanoke, VA From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 4 03:36:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA26853; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com [163.185.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id DAA26844 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 03:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mynext.slb.com by epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA09007; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 05:23:00 -0500 Received: by mynext.slb.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00212; Sun, 4 Jul 99 05:23:21 -0500 Message-Id: <9907041023.AA00212@mynext.slb.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary E Bickford Date: Sun, 4 Jul 99 05:23:18 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com References: <199907040800.BAA22676@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Bernie Cosell" > >On 28 Jun 99, at 21:09, Charles Bruce, Stewart wrote: > >> Sorting is immensely simplified by the use of subject prefixes. > >UGH. I hate subject prefixes. Could you explain what is made >better by using subject prefixes rather than just selecting on Gee, this takes me back - about 2 years ago I used the free version of Eudora which at that time didn't have filters. The sun-managers list averaged (it seemed) about 250 messages a day, and the PHP list was nearly as busy. PHP used subject prefix, sun-managers didn't. I was fairly new on the sun-managers list, and I proposed adopting prefixes. I was immediately and roundly flamed from all parts of the globe. I've never again had such a vitriolic response to anything I've ever posted anywhere! Nowadays it does seem that every mail client has at least some form of filters. The only exception I can think of is folks, some of whom I know personally, whose email is pine on someone else's unix machine who don't have a way to install procmail (which let's admin ain't that much fun to set up the first time anyway). So I sympathise, to an extent. However, it's true there's prefix-lists and no-prefix lists, and both groups are pretty adamant about staying that way. CBS, you're probably going to have to either find a client that does filters, or convince a friend (your ISP?) to run procmail and filter the prefix into the headers for you before forwarding the mail on to you. Hmm, I might even consider building a procmail-based email-to-XML gateway and really impress the girls. G From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 4 08:42:19 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA29222; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com [163.185.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA29215 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mynext.slb.com by epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09549; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:30:15 -0500 Received: by mynext.slb.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00213; Sun, 4 Jul 99 10:30:35 -0500 Message-Id: <9907041530.AA00213@mynext.slb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary E Bickford Date: Sun, 4 Jul 99 10:30:32 -0500 To: Rasmus Lerdorf Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Rasmus!! [He's everywhere!!] :O) Good point. Using procmail you _could_ insert the heading but = then you'd have to take it back out if you composed a reply to = someone. Hmm - a useful feature for mail clients: allow the user to select = what headers (or other criteria) to include as columns in the mail = list display, and to sort on of course. G= From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 4 10:20:35 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA29953; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA29946 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA23102; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:09:30 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: garyb@outlawnet.com Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Message-ID: <19990704130930.B22997@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <199907040800.BAA22676@honor.greatcircle.com> <9907041023.AA00212@mynext.slb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <9907041023.AA00212@mynext.slb.com>; from Gary E Bickford on Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 05:23:18AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 05:23:18AM -0500, Gary E Bickford wrote: > > Nowadays it does seem that every mail client has at least some form > of filters. The only exception I can think of is folks, some of > whom I know personally, whose email is pine on someone else's unix > machine who don't have a way to install procmail (which let's admin > ain't that much fun to set up the first time anyway). Pine does permit you to sort your mail by different criteria, so you can look at all of the mail addressed to `list-managers' first, or all the mail addressed to `smartlist', or all the mail addressed to `postmaster', or whatever. Its message-sorting facilities are powerful even if the interface is a little clunky. Most modern Unix mailers support this sort of thing, so I don't think it's a real problem. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative system obfuscator and hack-of-all-trades From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 4 11:20:16 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA00545; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA00538 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (dattier@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA27669 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:08:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id NAA34422 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:08:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907041808.NAA34422@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Subject Prefix To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:08:34 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9907041530.AA00213@mynext.slb.com> from "Gary E Bickford" at Jul 4, 99 10:30:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary Bickford responded (to something from Rasmus that I haven't seen), | Good point. Using procmail you _could_ insert the heading but then you'd | have to take it back out if you composed a reply to someone. The irony there is that if you have filtering software such as procmail a- vailable to recognize mail from that list in the first place so that you can add the tag to pieces that come from the list and not to all of your incoming mail, you can use it to file mail from that list into its own folder, and then you wouldn't need to have the subject lines tagged, nor to remove the tag when you respond. From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 5 08:36:15 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA13279; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA13272 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 08:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (dattier@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA07854 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:20:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id KAA03193 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:20:52 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907051520.KAA03193@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Subject Prefix To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:20:52 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "Rasmus Lerdorf" at Jul 5, 99 07:50:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I said that it was ironic that some people use filtering routines to add their own subject tags to mail from lists, because if they have that much filtering capability, they certainly have enough to file the deliveries in separate folders. Rasmus Lerdorf answered, | You missed the whole point here. Many people like to filter things into | folders based on high-level topic. This may mean multiple mailing lists | all getting filtered into the same folder. Let me get this straight: A person belongs to list#1 and list#2, which have similar or even overlapping topics. OK so far. This person considers the two lists so much alike that (s)he filters both lists to the same folder, but when the user reads that shared folder, it's important to be able to tell list#1's posts from those of list#2, yet using separate folders for the two lists would distinguish them too much, and any other information already present in the posts (such as a Sender: or Mailing-List: header) would distiguish them either too much or too little, but in viewing the folder where both lists' posts are filed, subject tags would distinguish posts from the two lists to just the right degree, and this setup is common and frequent and many people do it? Well, if you say so. (When I want to keep two subscriptions distinct, I filter them to separate folders in the first place.) In that situation, a person with filtering capability might want to tag his or her own subject lines. But it's ironic all the same, for most desire for tagged subjects and virtually all requests for them to be added by the list software level arise with people who have no filtering capability and who want the list software to add tags for them. So thank you for pointing the case out (it doesn't disprove or even contradict my previous post); however, what subscribers ask list managers to do in running their lists is going to get more press on a list for list managers than what subscribers do with their own copies of posts, so far from being the whole point, that situation is a footnote. If anything, it adds to the irony. From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 5 12:57:16 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA16155; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id MAA16147 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.243]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA28318 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 06:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SHELL (slip-32-101-163-13.nc.us.ibm.net [32.101.163.13]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA43780; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:52:54 GMT Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 09:52:56 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Rasmus Lerdorf To: garyb@outlawnet.com cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: <9907041023.AA00212@mynext.slb.com> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rasmus@imap3.bellglobal.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Gee, this takes me back - about 2 years ago I used the free version > of Eudora which at that time didn't have filters. The sun-managers > list averaged (it seemed) about 250 messages a day, and the PHP > list was nearly as busy. PHP used subject prefix, sun-managers > didn't. I was fairly new on the sun-managers list, and I proposed > adopting prefixes. I was immediately and roundly flamed from all > parts of the globe. I've never again had such a vitriolic response > to anything I've ever posted anywhere! The PHP lists use prefixes because it makes it a whole lot easier to handle multiple lists on the same topic. If you are subscribed to all the PHP lists and don't feel like filtering all your PHP-related mail into individual folders, but instead want to read all your PHP-related stuff in one place but still want to be able to easily distinguish different types of posts from each other. There are mail clients that let you do some mungeing so you can achieve this without the subject prefix, but they are few and far between. -Rasmus From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 5 13:06:40 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA16136; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id MAA16125 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.pacifier.com (smtp.pacifier.com [199.2.117.96]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA22035 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chuck (ip35.pdx1.pacifier.com [216.65.144.35]) by smtp.pacifier.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA32181; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 23:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199907040643.XAA32181@smtp.pacifier.com> X-Sender: cstewart@mail.pacifier.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 03 Jul 1999 23:44:43 -0700 To: bernie@rev.net From: "Charles Bruce, Stewart" Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Cc: In-Reply-To: <199906291146.HAA22180@mercury.rev.net> References: <199906290409.VAA08264@smtp.pacifier.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:46 AM 6/29/1999 , Bernie Cosell wrote: >On 28 Jun 99, at 21:09, Charles Bruce, Stewart wrote: >> Sorting is immensely simplified by the use of subject prefixes. >UGH. I hate subject prefixes. Could you explain what is made better >by using subject prefixes rather than just selecting on >Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM ??? You seem to be refering to using filters. My ability to configure filters is not at minimal levels, I now so realize. I will investigate this further. >> well it could make tha difference between my being able to stay on this fine list here or not, >> & I imagine the same is true with others. > >I would doubt it --- I would think that most folk for whom email- >traffic-flow is a problem or consideration would have long-since >mastered the filtering/sorting machinery of their mail client, no? All except myself, it seems. I will try to remedy this. I see you use Pegasus. Im disappointed with Eudora. Are you studied in comparisons between these 2? Is Pegasus prefferable to Eudora in your opinion? Thanks, CBS ... >and such mastery renders using list-prefixes irrelevant [the case is >slightly different for _subject_ prefixes, where what you have, in >essence, is several mailing lists siamesed onto one, and the subject- >prefixes distinguish traffic among the various "sublists"] > > /Bernie > > >-- >Bernie Cosell Roanoke Electronic Village >mailto:bernie@rev.net Roanoke, VA > From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 6 22:23:36 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA04297; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA03547 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id MAA04089 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (root@Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id NAA23427 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:58:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id LAA11912; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:37:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907061637.LAA11912@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Subject Prefix To: rasmus@raleigh.ibm.com (Rasmus Lerdorf) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 11:37:18 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Rasmus Lerdorf" at Jul 6, 99 09:49:16 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rasmus Lerdorf explained further. | For instance: | | 1 ......... [Bug] Core dump problem in imap module | 2 ......... [Dev] How should we fix it? | 3 ......... [Patch] Fix core-dump in imap module | 4 ......... [CVS] imap patch committed | | That would be a typical sequence of posts on 4 different mailing lists all | dealing with the same software package. Different people are able to post | to each one, and the cvs one is just for the cvs program to post to. ... | And you gain the ability to visually scan for messages that are related. | This scan would be pretty much impossible to do automatically. ... Ah, what you have there are not independent lists on the same topic but ra- ther lists from a single constellation. Your illustration brings out what seems to be the real point here: a single thread can move from one list to another within the set, and your reason for having them in the same folder is to follow a thread without searching for which folder holds the immedi- ately consequent post. The tag you add to the subject notifies you not just of the subdistribution that sent you the post but also (and perhaps more im- portantly) of the type of content the post will have. | I find short subject prefixes very useful in this case. Granted, understood, agreed ... but still ironic. If you filtered all posts from the various lists in that constellation to a single folder without tag- ging the subjects, and you saw which were related to which just by looking at the subject lines, but without the tags you didn't know until you read them which were bug reports, development discussion, or patch proposals, and the only way you'd spot a CVS announcement before reading its body were by notic- ing that the cvs account posted it, you could still follow the threads. | As long as ... the mailing list software is intelligent enough not to put | multiple instances in the subject line .... We all agree on not accumulating tags, but what do you mean "the mailing list software"? The discussion was about the subscriber's using his/her own fil- tering capability to add his/her own tags to mail from an untagged list. Has anyone here (certainly not I) advocated trying to talk a list manager who tags out of tagging? If these lists come to you with their subjects already tagged, then you and I have been comparing apples to oranges, and what you are doing is not the act that I have been calling ironic. | then the only thing you lose is about 5 chars in the subject line. "[Patch] " is eight characters long. If pushing part of the real subject out of view on the index screen is a factor, you could shorten the tags to one letter plus a hyphen or a space and they'll be even briefer. The original faction on my list who wanted tags suggested an eleven-character monstrosity, which I did not particularly want in the subjects of their follow-ups when, invariably, they would not edit it out. I talked them into a four-character tag. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 6 23:52:21 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA05423; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA05413 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA11527 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 04:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SHELL (slip-32-101-163-94.nc.us.ibm.net [32.101.163.94]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA252586; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 11:50:22 GMT Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 07:50:25 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Rasmus Lerdorf To: "David W. Tamkin" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: <199907041808.NAA34422@Jupiter.mcs.net> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: rasmus@imap3.bellglobal.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > | Good point. Using procmail you _could_ insert the heading but then you'd > | have to take it back out if you composed a reply to someone. > > The irony there is that if you have filtering software such as procmail a- > vailable to recognize mail from that list in the first place so that you can > add the tag to pieces that come from the list and not to all of your incoming > mail, you can use it to file mail from that list into its own folder, and > then you wouldn't need to have the subject lines tagged, nor to remove the > tag when you respond. You missed the whole point here. Many people like to filter things into folders based on high-level topic. This may mean multiple mailing lists all getting filtered into the same folder. -Rasmus From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 00:20:10 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA05489; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA05476 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 23:47:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA17162 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dell ([12.73.120.205]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19990705210624.VBNW2808@dell> for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:06:24 +0000 Message-ID: <05ce01bec72a$827f7ea0$0100a8c0@dell> Reply-To: "Don Pearsall" From: "Don Pearsall" To: Subject: Can't remove subscriber from Majordomo list Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:08:18 -0700 Organization: Millenium eWorks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry if this is a report, but I just subscribed to this list. I am the admin for a vers 1.94 Majordomo. For some reason, my old email address is in the mailing list twice and is getting bounced because that account does not exist anymore. When I try to unsubscribe myself, MD says "unsubscribe: 'kfbuildr@ix.netcom.com' matches multiple list members. **** FAILED." How can I delete this address from the list? I have tried using wildcards, but that does not work. Please send cc of response to dpearsall@sportflight.com Thanks, Don Pearsall From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 02:56:19 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA08401; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA08394 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA04198 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:47:59 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 02:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Blackman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [snip] I think this may be one of those things where there is no 'right' or 'wrong' way, just opinions. The best I can think of is to make the list software have the ability to put it either way on a per-subscriber basis; a feature JT and I have been planning to add to Listar for a while but haven't yet. I -will- note that the people who usually want list subject prefixes are the ones who do NOT know how to use mail filters, or are using things like Microsoft Outlook, where procmail isn't an option. My general opinion is that for lists (like this one) where the clue factor of the users is generally a little higher, it's fine to leave the subject prefix off. Someone who wants it probably can use procmail or something similar to add it. However, on a list where the clue factor may be lower, I figure if enough people complain, it's better to put the subject tag IN, and let the clueful users (who, again, probably know how to use procmail) make a procmail rule to strip the tags if they feel that strongly. Just my $0.02 + sales tax. --Loki loki@maison-otaku.net / jeremy@lith.com / loki@lithtech.com From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 05:27:08 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA11546; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA11539 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 05:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA17565 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:19:45 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix Message-ID: <19990707071945.A17559@gsp.org> References: <199907061637.LAA11912@Jupiter.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199907061637.LAA11912@Jupiter.mcs.net>; from David W. Tamkin on Tue, Jul 06, 1999 at 11:37:18AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per-mailing-list subject-line tags are an abomination. Use of proper mailing list management software (which provides a consistent "To:" line, doesn't munge the headers, etc.) and use of any reasonable filtering software on the part of the recipients alleviates the need for them, thus providing a vastly more elegant and scalable solution. (Consider that there are already at least three mailing lists about HTML. Which one should get to use [HTML] as the tag? What if they all want to?) Either people get so much mail they need to filter, or they don't. People who need to filter, should, and if they insist on not doing so, then that's *their* problem, not the mailing list managers'. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 08:05:58 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA13230; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com [163.185.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA13222 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mynext.slb.com by epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA19116; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:51:27 -0500 Received: by mynext.slb.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00225; Wed, 7 Jul 99 09:51:42 -0500 Message-Id: <9907071451.AA00225@mynext.slb.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary E Bickford Date: Wed, 7 Jul 99 09:51:38 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject-Prefix Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com References: <199907070800.BAA06485@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What this discussion really points out is the need in mail packages for relational capability. At one time I built a document management system (in essence) for mail for the NeXT, called MailQuery. It used Thunderstone's Metamorph full text search engine (now part of Texis). With relational capability, we're no longer limited to a single tree structure of folders based on (whatever) - we can have 'folders' and 'trees' based on subject, author, date, concepts expressed, or whatever. I don't know Pegasus, but I use Eudora - many folks find it the most useful of the Wysiwyg-type mail clients. I don't like any of the mailers I've used on Unix, though I use Procmail extensively for varous things. I hear that Qualcomm is trying to figure out what to do with Eudora - OPEN SOURCE it!! G From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 09:39:59 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA14308; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.visi.com (baal.visi.com [209.98.98.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA14301 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infinia (clift.dsl.visi.com [209.98.142.42]) by mail.visi.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id LAA09847 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:27:04 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:27:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907071627.LAA09847@mail.visi.com> From: "Steven Clift" Organization: http://www.e-democracy.org/do To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:26:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Lists and Contact Database Integration Reply-to: slc@publicus.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone recommend technical solutions on the integration of contact databases with e-mail lists? I am specifically interested in how to allow users to opt-into specific information announcement services as well as other interest group discussions based on information they provide via a web enabled contact database. I am helping network the "democracy online" community (in particular those producing 2000 election information, online events, and interaction in the United States). I like to have the ability to allow someone in our contact database to manage the handful of one-way list options we might have from a password protected web page (with web archives of past postings) and opt-into possible small group (3 to 50? people) discussions based on who they are, where they are from, or what they are interested in. I am well aware of what EGroups and others have produced but this is something that would be for more or less internal participation in WWB and need to be under our direct management. This is being built from scratch so suggestions about the best web- enabled database system, list software, hardware, software platform, and hosting are welcome. Thanks, Steven Clift clift@publicus.net Consultant to the Markle Foundation for Web White and Blue http://www.webwhiteblue.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Steven Clift - E: clift@publicus.net - ICQ: 13789183 3424 Fremont Avenue S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA T:+1.612.822.8667 W: http://www.publicus.net Web White & Blue - http://webwhiteblue.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 7 12:50:12 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA16264; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.itw.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA16257 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA21716 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:43:50 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject-Prefix Message-ID: <19990707154350.A21679@gsp.org> References: <199907070800.BAA06485@honor.greatcircle.com> <9907071451.AA00225@mynext.slb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <9907071451.AA00225@mynext.slb.com>; from Gary E Bickford on Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 09:51:38AM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 09:51:38AM -0500, Gary E Bickford wrote: > I don't know Pegasus, but I use Eudora - many folks find it the > most useful of the Wysiwyg-type mail clients. I don't like any of > the mailers I've used on Unix, though I use Procmail extensively for > varous things. I hear that Qualcomm is trying to figure out what > to do with Eudora - OPEN SOURCE it!! I find mutt a quite capable mailer for Unix/Linux systems; its design and look-and-feel resemble elm and pine, which is not surprising given its history. It also has what I consider a feature: it does *not* have an X-based interface, but a simple, easy-to-use, small, efficient character-based one. This eliminates the need to take my hands off the keyboard, which makes it a pleasure to use. Combined with procmail to handle filtering/filing, and fetchmail to handle POP/IMAP, it makes for quite a nice system. ---Rsk Rich Kulawiec rsk@gsp.org From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 03:18:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA27601; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from listes.cru.fr (listes.cru.fr [195.220.94.165]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA27347 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 03:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home.cru.fr (IDENT:root@home.cru.fr [195.220.94.39]) by listes.cru.fr (8.9.2/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id MAA22404 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:19:27 +0200 (MEST) Received: from home.cru.fr (IDENT:salaun@localhost.cru.fr [127.0.0.1]) by home.cru.fr (8.9.1a/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id MAA31797 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 12:19:26 +0200 Message-Id: <199907081019.MAA31797@home.cru.fr> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lists and Contact Database Integration In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Jul 1999 01:00:31 PDT." <199907080800.BAA23555@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:19:25 +0200 From: Olivier Salaun - CRU Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Steven Clift" : > Can anyone recommend technical solutions on the integration of > contact databases with e-mail lists? I am specifically interested in how > to allow users to opt-into specific information announcement services as > well as other interest group discussions based on information they > provide via a web enabled contact database. «Sympa» MLM has such database-oriented features : http://listes.cru.fr/sympa/ One may define a mailinglist as a SELECT from any DBI compatible database (Oracle, Ingres, MySQL, PostgreSQL,..). It sounds like this would meet your needs. > [...] > This is being built from scratch so suggestions about the best web- > enabled database system, list software, hardware, software > platform, and hosting are welcome. FYI, we are running a ML service for 70 000 users (3 million msgs/month) on a Intel bi-PII 300 under linux. We use MySQL for user data management. Olivier Salaun CRU - France From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 06:34:04 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA29126; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 06:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ntcorp.dn.net (ntcorp.dn.net [207.226.172.79]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA29119 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 06:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (fidelman@localhost) by ntcorp.dn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12623 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Miles Fidelman X-Sender: fidelman@ntcorp.dn.net To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Lists and Contact Database Integration In-Reply-To: <199907081019.MAA31797@home.cru.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Olivier Salaun - CRU wrote: > =ABSympa=BB MLM has such database-oriented features : http://listes.cru.f= r/sympa/=20 I just spent some time going through the Sympa web site - it looks like a pretty impressive, open-source, list manager. Does anybody have any experience using it? Has anybody compared its features to those going into Majordomo 2? Thanks, Miles Fidelman ************************************************************************** The Center for Civic Networking =09 PO Box 600618 Miles R. Fidelman, President &=09=09 Newtonville, MA 02460-0006 Director, Municipal Telecommunications=20 Strategies Program=09=09=09 617-558-3698 fax: 617-630-8946 mfidelman@civicnet.org=09 =09=09 http://civic.net/ccn.html Information Infrastructure: Public Spaces for the 21st Century=20 Let's Start With: Internet Wall-Plugs Everywhere=20 Say It Often, Say It Loud: "I Want My Internet!"=20 ************************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 09:08:53 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00698; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nord.fr.clara.net (nord.fr.clara.net [212.43.194.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA00691 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21342 invoked by uid 10); 8 Jul 1999 16:03:18 -0000 Received: from du-fr0-0388.claranet.fr (HELO povlab.org) (212.43.199.134) by mail.fr.clara.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 16:03:18 -0000 Message-ID: <3784CBBE.519FE41@povlab.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:03:10 +0200 From: "Denis Olivier [368859]" Organization: DOLIST E-mail List Server [http://www.dolist.net] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix References: <199907061637.LAA11912@Jupiter.mcs.net> <19990707071945.A17559@gsp.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec wrote: > Either people get so much mail they need to filter, or they don't. People > who need to filter, should, and if they insist on not doing so, then > that's *their* problem, not the mailing list managers'. Yes sure, but list-owner can have a look on member request too. Most of major list systems allow special/specific fields that you can filter out without any subject prefix (X-List:, X-Listmember, X-Tracking, and so on....) -- Denis Olivier ____________________________________________________________ DOLIST, Internet E-mail List Server DOLIST information at : http://www.dolist.net Human information at : http://www.povlab.org/denis.olivier/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 09:24:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA00710; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nord.fr.clara.net (nord.fr.clara.net [212.43.194.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA00703 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 09:02:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21665 invoked by uid 10); 8 Jul 1999 16:05:21 -0000 Received: from du-fr0-0388.claranet.fr (HELO povlab.org) (212.43.199.134) by mail.fr.clara.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 16:05:21 -0000 Message-ID: <3784CC39.C724B825@povlab.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 18:05:13 +0200 From: "Denis Olivier [368859]" Organization: DOLIST E-mail List Server [http://www.dolist.net] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeremy Blackman wrote: > I think this may be one of those things where there is no 'right' or > 'wrong' way, just opinions. The best I can think of is to make the > list software have the ability to put it either way on a per-subscriber > basis; a feature JT and I have been planning to add to Listar for a while > but haven't yet. Yes me too but in fact but you will need to post one mail per subscriber, much for longer and overload the server. -- Denis Olivier ____________________________________________________________ DOLIST, Internet E-mail List Server DOLIST information at : http://www.dolist.net Human information at : http://www.povlab.org/denis.olivier/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 11:09:19 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA01673; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nord.fr.clara.net (nord.fr.clara.net [212.43.194.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id KAA01666 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 10:55:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10140 invoked by uid 10); 8 Jul 1999 17:57:43 -0000 Received: from du-fr0-0388.claranet.fr (HELO povlab.org) (212.43.199.134) by mail.fr.clara.net with SMTP; 8 Jul 1999 17:57:43 -0000 Message-ID: <3784E68F.53C70BDA@povlab.org> Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 19:57:35 +0200 From: "Denis Olivier [368859]" Organization: DOLIST E-mail List Server [http://www.dolist.net] X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Re: Subject Prefix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeremy Blackman wrote: > However, I don't think you need to drop it to 1 user per chunk to do this; > you could create two outgoing messages - one with the subject tag and one > without - and simply sort the subscribers who want the tag into one batch > and send them that one, and sort the ones who don't into another batch and > send them that one. :) That's an idea.... obly if don't add such options for users ! :) Or you will mix and internal ML with the subscribers !: ) -- Denis Olivier ____________________________________________________________ DOLIST, Internet E-mail List Server DOLIST information at : http://www.dolist.net Human information at : http://www.povlab.org/denis.olivier/ From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 12:08:56 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA02311; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragoncat.net (herne.dragoncat.net [216.122.4.136]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA02304 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jtraub@localhost) by dragoncat.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30684 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:50:43 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:50:43 -0700 (PDT) From: JT To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Subject Prefix In-Reply-To: <3784CC39.C724B825@povlab.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Jul 1999, Denis Olivier [368859] wrote: > > I think this may be one of those things where there is no 'right' or > > 'wrong' way, just opinions. The best I can think of is to make the > > list software have the ability to put it either way on a per-subscriber > > basis; a feature JT and I have been planning to add to Listar for a while > > but haven't yet. > > Yes me too but in fact but you will need to post one mail per subscriber, > much for longer and overload the server. Umm.. no.. If you sort the subscriber base along this criteria (after sorting out the digest members) then you need to send 2 messages. One to the users with the tag, one to the users without the tag. I am leaning toward doing it this way in Listar rather than under the per-user modification which would require one message per user. It's a bit more complex in the code, but MUCH nicer on the mail server. --JT -- [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] [ Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty. ] [ It's hard to seize the day when you must first grapple with the morning ] [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 14:08:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA03822; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA03806 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 14:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id QAA17420 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:02:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id QAA02838 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:02:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907082102.QAA02838@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: per-user subject tag option (was Subject Prefix) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:02:41 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <3784E68F.53C70BDA@povlab.org> from "Denis Olivier [368859]" at Jul 8, 99 07:57:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I haven't seen Jeremy Blackman's post, but Denis Olivier quoted Jeremy as having written this: B> However, I don't think you need to drop it to 1 user per chunk to do this; B> you could create two outgoing messages - one with the subject tag and one B> without - and simply sort the subscribers who want the tag into one batch B> and send them that one, and sort the ones who don't into another batch and B> send them that one. :) Denis responded, O> That's an idea.... obly if don't add such options for users ! :) O> Or you will mix and internal ML with the subscribers !: ) Denis, I don't understand what you're posing as a drawback. I offer tags as an option for subscribers, and if the name of the list isn't already in the subject, a post goes out in two batches: one to the tag-free people and one to the tagged people. (If the name of the list is already in the subject line, no tag is added and the post goes to both groups in the same dispatch.) It works very smoothly and doesn't cause any problems at all. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 16:23:54 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA05039; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com [163.185.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA05032 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 16:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mynext.slb.com by epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA24112; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 18:05:55 -0500 Received: by mynext.slb.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00540; Thu, 8 Jul 99 18:06:15 -0500 Message-Id: <9907082306.AA00540@mynext.slb.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary E Bickford Date: Thu, 8 Jul 99 18:06:10 -0500 To: clift@publicus.net Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V8 #139 Cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com References: <199907080800.BAA23555@honor.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk clift@publicus.net said: >Can anyone recommend technical solutions on the integration of >contact databases with e-mail lists? I am specifically interested >in how to allow users to opt-into specific information announcement >services as well as other interest group discussions based on >information they provide via a web enabled contact database. I bet you get a large number of suggestions. There're many small to large hosting companies that will get you most of the way there, but might charge a lot to get you the rest of the way. Hmm. Check out http://www.forum-one.com or .org or something - I get a monthly letter from them on forum usage statistics. If you want to do it yourself, I would take a look first at PHP (http://www.php.net) in conjunction with apache and any database - mysql is popular, fast, a little fiddly to set up. This kind of thing is almost dirt simple in PHP, and the PHPBase session manager actually works :O) you can find php hosting companies pretty easily, theres' a list on the PHP web site. There's also some nifty java and java-server-pages (JSP) solutions available in open source now as well - look around http://www.developer.com. JSP is like PHP in many ways but it's Java with all the advantages and hype that attach thereto. Cold Fusion has its adherents, but costs actual money and I find that HomeSite/Cold Fusion Studio, which many think is the best HTML editor on the PC, sucks great big ones. For my money either of the above is a much better way to go. Allaire, the owners of Cold Fusion, just bought Live Software, the owners of Jrun, the arguably best JSP package - plan to see more integration between the two. And then, of course, there's Perl. There's probably a dozen or two folks on this list who will offer to host you as well. In fact, I'm about to go back on contract in August, so consider this a plug for myself. I and my gang can build it from scratch or integrate an existing system to make it do what you want, and we have several hosting partners. :O) Gary E Bickford GEB From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 8 21:38:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA07583; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA07576 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (pem05-36.swva.net [208.140.224.100]) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA20527 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:23:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199907090423.AAA20527@ctc.swva.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:19:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: per-user subject tag option (was Subject Prefix) Reply-to: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: <199907082102.QAA02838@Jupiter.mcs.net> References: <3784E68F.53C70BDA@povlab.org> from "Denis Olivier [368859]" at Jul 8, 99 07:57:35 pm X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 8 Jul 99, at 16:02, David W. Tamkin wrote: > Denis, I don't understand what you're posing as a drawback. I offer tags as > an option for subscribers, and if the name of the list isn't already in the > subject, a post goes out in two batches: one to the tag-free people and one > to the tagged people. (If the name of the list is already in the subject > line, no tag is added and the post goes to both groups in the same dispatch.) > It works very smoothly and doesn't cause any problems at all. And if one of the 'tagged' people does a 'reply to list', will the MLM REMOVE the tag as it goes through to the tag-free folk? If not, then that might well be the ugliest/worst of the solutions: now I'll have mail in my inbox *both* "Re: this subject" _and_ "Re: [MYLIST] this subject" (depending on who contributed to the thread), and I don't know about yours, but my mail client won't sort those correctly [and so I won't be able to follow the thread particularly]. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 02:18:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA11174; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.coppernet.zm (polaris.zccm.zm [194.130.159.16]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id CAA11167 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 02:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coppernet.zm (kasopaw@polaris.coppernet.zm [194.130.159.16]) by polaris.coppernet.zm (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04513; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:11:04 +0200 (ZMT) Message-ID: <3785BCA7.203D1FFA@coppernet.zm> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:11:04 +0200 From: Wilbroad C Kasopa - Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/867) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stan Ryckman CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Sendmail talking to vms mailbus References: <2.2.32.19990630043914.00bfc760@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, Having found ourselves in this business of mail, I hope someone out there can help me sort out this problem. How can I make sendmail running on Unix talk to VMS mailbus on the VAX directly without passing through PMDF? I am sure there are some who have come across the solution. Hoping to get a feedback soon. Wilbroad. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 12:20:15 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA18828; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ctc.swva.net (ctc.swva.net [165.166.123.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA18821 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (pem05-33.swva.net [208.140.224.97]) by ctc.swva.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA29557 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:10:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199907091910.PAA29557@ctc.swva.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:10:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: per-user subject tag option (was Subject Prefix) Reply-to: bernie@fantasyfarm.com References: "Bernie Cosell"'s message of "Fri, 9 Jul 1999 00:19:24 -0400" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Jul 99, at 10:39, tibbs@hpc.uh.edu wrote: > What is the accepted practise with respect to tags and 'Re:'? ... My > guess is that they should show up after the 'Re:' as this makes the most > sense when threading is taken into account. That's what I thought. Indeed, my MUA [and a fair number of others, I suspect] make a special case of subjects beginning "Re:" I thought there was an RFC [was it one of the news, not email, rfcs??] that actually specified that: it said that a reply [or followup or whatever] should have a subject beginning with the four letters "re: ". I just took a quick look and couldn't find it though... > BC> If not, then that might well be the ugliest/worst of the solutions: now > BC> I'll have mail in my inbox *both* "Re: this subject" _and_ "Re: > BC> [MYLIST] this subject" [...] > > Well, if you get CC'd, the MLM isn't going to have any control over what > goes directly to you and so you may see tags in this situation. Not so much of an issue, since the cc'ed copy will go into my personal folder, but the copy via that MLM [which will be sorted into its thread] will go into the list's folder.. for my personal stuff it hardly matters, tag or not... > BC> [...] and I don't know about yours, but my mail client won't sort those > BC> correctly [and so I won't be able to follow the thread particularly]. > > Well, you could always ask the folks who wrote it to change that behavior. > Or, if you have the source, you could hack a bit. Or play with Procmail. Alas, it'll be an unfortunate day when the only folk that can have reasonable mail facilities are those who are Unix hackers and have the luxury of a shell account on the system that handles their email, and/or are programmers and have access to appropriate sources and development tools... Better, wouldn't it be, that the newcomers clamoring for a new feature be constrained a bit to have it added in a way that doesn't break the existing conventions and rules and clients? /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 13:20:52 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA19388; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id NAA19381 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: arielle@taronga.com Received: (qmail 5588 invoked by uid 1001); 9 Jul 1999 20:07:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19990709200705.5587.qmail@mushi.colo.neosoft.com> Subject: eGroups archiving third-party mailing lists now? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:07:05 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Was just now preusing eGroups to see what they've done since their site redesign and discovered they have a lot of non-eGroups lists in there now. Looks like they've picked up mailing list archives from other sources as I found a message I posted to list-managers dated 1993. It appears they merged with an entity that has been archivng lists for several years, although if eGroups made an announcement regarding this, I obviously missed it. Each non-eGroups list -- that I've looked at so far, just a couple -- have a "Join this eGroup" button, so it looks like they have set up a third-party subscribe interface. At least I think they have, I'm not sure if that means "read this on their web interface" or "get it in email", I'm going to test subscribe to something to find out. It sounds a bit odd to my ear to hear them referring to lists like list-managers as an eGroup. Ohwell, off to see if there's a mechanism that'll let me remove my messages out of their database. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 17:35:14 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA22205; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id RAA22198 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15346 invoked from network); 10 Jul 1999 00:31:40 -0000 Received: from bonkers.neosoft.com (HELO bonkers.taronga.com) (206.109.2.48) by mushi.colo.neosoft.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 1999 00:31:40 -0000 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA26716 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:30:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from arielle) From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:30:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the list-managers list at eGroups and got this welcome message. As you can see, it's marked as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the list-managers@greatcircle.com list. Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands of existing lists or are they hijacking lists? Forwarded message: > From list-managers-return-@returns.egroups.com Fri Jul 9 19:16:29 1999 > Message-Id: <199907100016.TAA26096@bonkers.taronga.com> > Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:58:31 -0000 > From: "eGroups.com Manager" > Subject: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. > Reply-To: list-managers-unsubscr|be-arielle=taronga.com@egroups.com > To: arielle@taronga.com > > > This is the eGroups.com service. > > You have been added to the list-managers@egroups.com group. > > Here is a welcome message provided by : > > ------------------ > welcome > ------------------ > > You can post messages to its members via e-mail at: > > list-managers@egroups.com > > You can also read and post group messages on the Web: > > http://www.egroups.com/list/list-managers > > If you do not want to be a member of this e-group, you can instantly > remove yourself from the group by simply replying to this message. Use > the "Reply" function of your e-mail program and send us back a blank > message. > > Please direct any comments or questions about the group to the group > moderator at: > > list-managers-owner@egroups.com > > If you have other questions, visit: > > http://www.egroups.com/info/help.html > > Welcome! > > The eGroups.com Team > --- > FREE Web-based e-mail groups! > http://www.egroups.com > > > From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 18:35:15 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA22573; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:23:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com [163.185.167.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id SAA22566 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mynext.slb.com by epona.sugar-land.oilfield.slb.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27663; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:21:44 -0500 Received: by mynext.slb.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0S) id AA00241; Fri, 9 Jul 99 20:21:58 -0500 Message-Id: <9907100121.AA00241@mynext.slb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary E Bickford Date: Fri, 9 Jul 99 20:21:57 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mass non-bulk mailing Reply-To: garyb@outlawnet.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, We're about to start a nightly custom mailing subscription = service. Each email will be constructed with information of = interest to the subscriber based on the subscription and other = information. Total volume is projected at 100,000 emails per = night. The folks building the application are building the mail = messages in Java & Oracle. It will run on a Sparc E250. It's = already running, but I'd like to hear about any existing solutions = in any case. More interestingly, we're presently running Sendmail 8.9.x. What = kind of issues should I look at regarding the MTA? The Java = servlet/bean/whatever doesn't presently combine these and pass = them to sendmail in batches - should it? We have a 1MB/s = guaranteed, 9MB/s max connection so I don't see a problem with = overall bandwidth. As an aside, I tried installing Post.Office but couldn't get it = running. Sofware.com's support site requires a license no, which = our company has but their web site wouldn't accept it. Their = sales email never responded... It took me a while to unwind it = from the system but it's gone now. One of the unheralded benefits of GNU is the increasingly elegant = and simple installation and configuration process. I think = Autoconf is one of those quiet milestones in the software process. = Commercial unix software just never seems to have that - they = wrap inelegant Wysiwyg wrappers around a messy, fragile adhoc = package and install process that doesn't fit with each of the = different architectures well. They would be well advised to learn = from the Force :O) G= From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 19:23:01 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA23004; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA22997 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out-1.tiac.net (mail-out-1.tiac.net [199.0.65.12]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA32149; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:02:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from stanr@sunspot.tiac.net) Received: from sunspot.tiac.net (sunspot.tiac.net [199.0.65.22]) by mail-out-1.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05752; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from stanr@localhost) by sunspot.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) id WAA12521; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:00:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Stan Ryckman Message-Id: <199907100200.WAA12521@sunspot.tiac.net> Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-Reply-To: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> from Stephanie da Silva at "Jul 9, 99 07:30:16 pm" To: arielle@Taronga.COM (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Organization: Amber & Sneakers Fan Club X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: > Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands of existing > lists or are they hijacking lists? ... > > This is the eGroups.com service. ... > > Please direct any comments or questions about the group to the group > > moderator at: > > > > list-managers-owner@egroups.com Gee, do you suppose a few sweet, innocent questions from their newest subscriber might reveal who's moderating us now? :-) Cheers, Stan From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 19:37:03 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA22989; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA22981 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [209.157.82.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id TAA25575; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3786AA8F.B51A23A@postmodern.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:06:34 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. References: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We (the hosts of the list-managers list at GreatCircle.com) have assuredly not made any agreement with eGroups permitting them to relay, manage subscriptions, etc., for the list-managers list. We don't mind "exploders" for particular private domains or groups, or mirrored archives, but public access and management of our lists is limited to us here and eGroups' claim of "moderation", etc., is confusing to users and we plan to ask them to stop. Thanks for the heads-up. -- Michael C. Berch Postmaster & list-manager, Great Circle Associates mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com Stephanie da Silva wrote: > > As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the list-managers list > at eGroups and got this welcome message. As you can see, it's marked > as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the > list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > > Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands of existing > lists or are they hijacking lists? > > Forwarded message: > > From list-managers-return-@returns.egroups.com Fri Jul 9 19:16:29 1999 > > Message-Id: <199907100016.TAA26096@bonkers.taronga.com> > > Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:58:31 -0000 > > From: "eGroups.com Manager" > > Subject: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. > > Reply-To: list-managers-unsubscr|be-arielle=taronga.com@egroups.com > > To: arielle@taronga.com > > > > > > This is the eGroups.com service. > > > > You have been added to the list-managers@egroups.com group. > > > > Here is a welcome message provided by : > > > > ------------------ > > welcome > > ------------------ > > > > You can post messages to its members via e-mail at: > > > > list-managers@egroups.com > > > > You can also read and post group messages on the Web: > > > > http://www.egroups.com/list/list-managers > > > > If you do not want to be a member of this e-group, you can instantly > > remove yourself from the group by simply replying to this message. Use > > the "Reply" function of your e-mail program and send us back a blank > > message. > > > > Please direct any comments or questions about the group to the group > > moderator at: > > > > list-managers-owner@egroups.com > > > > If you have other questions, visit: > > > > http://www.egroups.com/info/help.html > > > > Welcome! > > > > The eGroups.com Team > > --- > > FREE Web-based e-mail groups! > > http://www.egroups.com > > > > > > From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 19:51:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA23737; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA23723 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [209.157.82.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA03107 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.visi.com (baal.visi.com [209.98.98.3]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id MAA04426 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:54:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from infinia (clift.dsl.visi.com [209.98.142.42]) by mail.visi.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id OAA13313; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:47:24 -0500 (CDT) Posted-Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:47:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907061947.OAA13313@mail.visi.com> From: "Steven Clift" Organization: http://www.e-democracy.org/do To: e-conf@chatsubo.com, list-moderators@list-moderators.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:46:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Lists and Contact Database Integration Reply-to: slc@publicus.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone recommend experts on the integration of contact databases with e-mail lists? I am specifically interested in how to allow users to opt-into specific information announcement services as well as other interest group discussions based on information they provide via a web enabled contact database. I am helping network the "democracy online" community (in particular those producing 2000 election information, online events, and interaction in the United States). I like to have the ability to allow someone in our contact database to manage the handful of one-way list options we might have from a password protected web page (with web archives of past postings) and opt-into possible small group (3 to 50? people) discussions based on who they are, where they are from, or what they are interested in. I am well aware of what EGroups and others have produced but this is something that would be for more or less internal participation in WWB and need to be under our direct management. This is being built from scratch so suggestions about the best web- enabled database system, list software, hardware, software platform, and hosting are welcome. Thanks, Steven Clift clift@publicus.net Consultant to the Markle Foundation for Web White and Blue http://www.webwhiteblue.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Steven Clift - E: clift@publicus.net - ICQ: 13789183 3424 Fremont Avenue S, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA T:+1.612.822.8667 W: http://www.publicus.net Web White & Blue - http://webwhiteblue.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 20:06:45 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA24154; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA24146 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dattier@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id VAA28550 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.8.7/8.8.2) id VAA10248 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:50:16 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907100250.VAA10248@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:50:13 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Jul 9, 99 07:30:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva wrote, | As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the list-managers list | at eGroups and got this welcome message. As you can see, it's marked | as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the | list-managers@greatcircle.com list. How can you be sure it's really this list, Stephanie? I don't see anything in what you quoted that shows it's really the list on greatcircle.com. Did you send email to list-managers-owner@egroups.com and find it went to owner-list-managers@greatcircle.com or something like that? I just can't see how you reached that conclusion. Maybe its archives contained posts from this list, and that's how you knew? From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 20:21:40 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA23910; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id TAA23900 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA02228 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09257 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:47:19 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Blackman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: MLMAP Draft Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For a while, I've been working on a design for a protocol to allow a mailing list server to be communicated with in an abstract way. A mailing list package would implement an MLMAP server, and then various mail programs (or even standalone client programs) would be able to connect to this MLMAP server and allow users to perform operations on their subscription (subscribe, unsubscribe, change settings for MLMs where this applies, etc.) After a number of little rewrites, I have a basic concept for the protocol grammar down, and a preliminary list of the userspace commands. I have not yet spec'd out the admin commands; I'd like comments on the userspace ones first. :) The grammar owes a LOT to IMAP, as people will probably notice immediately. I did receive one suggestion that instead of sending text-based communication, the protocol should use RPC... I'm a little iffy on that. CORBA might work, but I've never used it, and I think it's easier to ensure that EVERY given platform can handle a protocol if it's not requiring a library like that. I posted this to the mlmap@listar.org list, but I suspect that everyone on that list is sorting it into a subsidiary folder and since it's been quiet so long, simply never noticed the post. (I'm assuming it's NOT just a lack of interest because everyone always says 'that's a good idea' when the topic is brought up.) So I'm posting it here to get comments. :) If anyone wants to comment on the MLMAP draft, I suggest subscribing to the MLMAP list over on listar.org; send e-mail to mlmap-request@listar.org with a subject of subscribe: mailto:mlmap-request@listar.org?subject=subscribe Anyway... comments are much appreciated. :) --- MLMAP Basic Description ----------------------- Commands are in the format: cXXX [] Responses are in the format: rXXX [] [: [ ] | { }] [...] The first line increments one each time, and the command/result pairs are matchable on that, like IMAP. The result will be 'OK', 'MOK', or 'ERROR'. 'OK' means the command was successful, 'MOK' means the command was successful and the result will take multiple lines. 'ERROR', of course, means an error. In the case of 'MOK', all lines have 'MOK' until a line that simply has 'DONE'. The set of commands is designed to be fairly generic and yet fairly comprehensive, so as not to tie it to any one mailing list package. This should allow it to work for Lyris, or Majordomo, or Listserv, or Petidomo, or Listar. The first drafts will probably be biased in favor of Listar, simply because I wrote that package and it's what I tend to think in terms of, but I'm trying to write it with Majordomo and Listserv - the other two packages I have maintained lists under - in mind as well. Here's a sample session. All commands come from client, all responses from server: [connect] r000 WELCOME OK : SERVER "Listar.org MLMAP Server" DOMAINS (listar.org baka-con.org nausicaa.net) PROTOCOLS (1.0 1.0-extended) c001 PROTOCOL 1.0 r001 PROTOCOL OK c002 FLAGLIST r002 FLAGLIST OK : USERFLAGS ((VACATION "User is on vacation") (ACKPOST "User is notified when their post is accepted.")) ADMINFLAGS ((ADMIN "User is an administrator") (MODERATOR "User is a moderator.")) c003 DOMAIN listra.org r003 DOMAIN ERROR "No such domain on this server." c004 DOMAIN listar.org r004 DOMAIN OK c005 LISTS r005 LISTS MOK : LIST "listar-dev" NAME "Listar Development Mailing List" r005 LISTS MOK : LIST "listar-support" NAME "Listar Support Mailing List" r005 LISTS MOK : LIST "listar-cvs" NAME "Listar CVS Notification List" r005 LISTS DONE c006 LOGIN loki@maison-otaku.net MYp4ss r006 LOGIN OK c007 LIST listar-dev r007 LIST OK c008 FLAGS r008 FLAGS OK : FLAGS (ADMIN MODERATOR ECHOPOST) c009 SETFLAG ACKPOST ON r009 SETFLAG OK c010 FLAGS r010 FLAGS OK : FLAGS (ADMIN MODERATOR ECHOPOST ACKPOST) c011 PUBFILE listar-dev intro r011 PUBFILE OK : FILE intro TEXT { Welcome to the Listar-Dev mailing list. Blah. Foo... bar. Baz. } c011 WHO r011 WHO ERROR "List membership not viewable over MLMAP." c012 LOGOUT r012 LOGOUT OK "Goodbye" [disconnected] MLMAP COMMANDS LIST ------------------- WELCOME Client form: No client form. Server form params: SERVER - name of server. DOMAINS - list of domains. PROTOCOLS - list of protocol versions supported Notes: WELCOME is a special command. It's never issued from a client, and only occurs as the first line of a session, when an MLMAP client connects to a server, thus it should only ever occur as r000. Example: r000 WELCOME OK : SERVER "Happy Test Server" DOMAINS (testlist.org) PROTOCOLS (1.0 1.5) PROTOCOL Client form: PROTOCOL Server form params: PROTOCOLS - List of supported protocols, provided on error. Notes: PROTOCOL is used by an MLMAP client to inform the server what protocol revision it wishes to use. This ensures backwards compatibility, much like the 'HTTP/' stamp at the end of HTTP commands for a webserver. Examples: c0001 PROTOCOL 1.0 r0001 PROTOCOL OK c0001 PROTOCOL 5.0 r0001 PROTOCOL ERROR "Protocol '5.0' not supported." : PROTOCOLS (1.0 1.5) HOST Client form: DOMAIN Server form params: DOMAINS - list of supported domains, provided on error Notes: DOMAIN is used to select which domain the MLMAP session applies to at that point, for MLMAP servers that provide multiple virtual-hosted domains. Examples: r0002 DOMAIN testlist.org r0002 DOMAIN OK r0002 DOMAIN foobar.com r0002 DOMAIN ERROR "This server does not handle 'foobar.com'." : DOMAINS (testlist.org) DOMAINS Client form: DOMAINS Server form params: DOMAINS - List of supported domains Notes: DOMAINS is used to get the list of domains that is made available at login time, in case you need it again. This is to avoid clients that don't cache the list issuing bogus DOMAIN commands simply to retrieve the list of available domains. LISTS Client form: LISTS Server form params: LIST - List name/ID. DESC - Description of list. Notes: LISTS returns a list of the available lists, as a set of MOK results. It only applies to the current domain. Examples: c0002 LISTS r0002 LISTS ERROR "No domain set." c0002 LISTS r0002 LISTS MOK : LIST "test1" DESC "First Test List" r0002 LISTS MOK : LIST "test2" DESC "Second Test List" r0002 LISTS DONE LOGIN Client form: LOGIN [password] Server form params: Notes: LOGIN provides a method of connecting to a specific list with a specific e-mail address. The password parameter is optional; for a brand-new user, it shouldn't be supplied anyway. Not all mailing list packages will provide a password method of authentication at this level, anyway. Examples: c0002 LOGIN loki@listar.org r0002 LOGIN OK c0002 LOGIN loki@listar.org r0002 LOGIN ERROR "Password required." c0002 LOGIN loki@listar.org Foobar r0002 LOGIN ERROR "Password not supported." LIST Client form: LIST [password] Server form params: ALIAS
- If the current e-mail address is on the list under a different address, this is that other address. Notes: The password parameter is allowable here again as well, since some packages may have a password at the list-level instead of the server level. Alias is useful for packages that allow you to have multiple addresses associated with a subscription; it allows a way to inform the client of what the primary address for that subscription is. Examples: c0005 LIST test1 r0005 LIST OK c0005 LIST test1 FooBar r0005 LIST OK : ALIAS "loki@maison-otaku.net" PASSWD Client form: PASSWD Server form params: Notes: It changes your password for the scope you're in. Duh. :) PROBABLY, something other than plaintext passwords should be supported, too. PGP keys? Kerberos? I'm open to suggestions, both on what security method to employ AND on how to implement it. Examples: c0007 PASSWD foobar MyPass r0007 PASSWD OK SUBSCRIBE Client form: SUBSCRIBE Server form params: Notes: SUBSCRIBE requires that you have a list context focus and an e-mail address provided (e.g. a LOGIN and a LIST command). Whenever possible, it should generate a subscribe ticket (open+confirm in Majordomo parlance, or subscribe-mode=confirm in Listar). Examples: c0009 SUBSCRIBE r0009 SUBSCRIBE ERROR "No list scope." c0011 SUBSCRIBE r0011 SUBSCRIBE OK UNSUBSCRIBE Client form: UNSUBSCRIBE [REQUESTADMIN ""] Server form params: Notes: Like SUBSCRIBE, UNSUBSCRIBE requires a list and user scope. Ideally, it should generate a confirm mode ticket as well, but this may not always be feasible (as an address may be outdated or such). Hence, the 'requestadmin' parameter, which requests admin intervention if unsubscribe is just plain not working. Examples: c0007 UNSUBSCRIBE r0007 UNSUBSCRIBE ERROR "Not on that list." c0028 UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTADMIN "E-mail address no longer works." r0028 UNSUBSCRIBE OK FLAGS Client form: FLAGS Server form params: FLAGS - List of the actual flags set on the account Notes: FLAGS is useful for MLMs (Listar, Listserv) that allow you to set subscription flags. Flags given here are Listar ones. ;) Examples: c0008 FLAGS r0008 FLAGS OK : FLAGS (ACKPOST DIGEST VACATION) FLAGLIST Client form: FLAGLIST Server form params: USERFLAGS - Flags available for users to set. ADMINFLAGS - Flags available for admins to set. Notes: The reason both admin and user flags are provided is so the client software can get the descriptions of them for displaying subscription information. User flags are settable by users (or admins), while admin flags are only settable/unsettable by admins (examples of this would be the Listar 'MODERATOR' flag or 'MODPOST' flag, and the Listserv 'REVIEW' flag). Examples: c0009 FLAGLIST r0009 FLAGLIST OK : USERFLAGS ((VACATION "User is on vacation") (ACKPOST "User recieves a notice when their posts are approved.")) ADMINFLAGS ((ADMIN "User is an administrator.") (MODERATOR "User is a moderator.")) c0013 FLAGLIST r0013 FLAGLIST ERROR "Majordomo doesn't support subscription flags." FLAGS Client form: FLAGS Server form params: FLAGS - List of flags on current account Notes: FLAGS lists the current flags set on your subscription, for MLMs that allow subscription flags. Examples: c0018 FLAGS r0018 FLAGS OK : FLAGS (ADMIN ACKPOST VACATION) c0013 FLAGS r0013 FLAGS ERROR "Majordomo doesn't support flags." SETFLAG Client form: SETFLAG Server form params: Notes: SETFLAG is how you set or unset a subscription flag. Examples: c0019 SETFLAG ACKPOST ON r0019 SETFLAG OK c0028 SETFLAG FOOBAR OFF r0019 SETFLAG ERROR "No such flag 'FOOBAR'." c0014 SETFLAG ADMIN ON r0014 SETFLAG ERROR "That flag is not settable by users." c0017 SETFLAG DIGEST ON r0017 SETFLAG ERROR "Majordomo does not support subscription flags." PUBFILES Client form: PUBFILES Server form params: FILES - List of publically viewable files associated with a list. Notes: This is useful for retrieving a list of what files are available for a list, such as 'intro', 'info', 'faq', etc. Examples: c0008 PUBFILES r0008 PUBFILES OK : FILES ((INTRO "List introduction.") (FAQ "List FAQ")) PUBFILE Client form: PUBFILE Server form params: FILE - The file this applies to. TEXT - The content of the file for the list. Notes: This provides a way to view the files given in the PUBFILES command above. Examples: c0008 PUBFILE intro r0008 PUBFILE OK : NAME intro TEXT { Welcome to the test1 mailing list. This is the intro textfile. Whee. Isn't that special? } From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 20:37:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA24734; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA24727 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23206 invoked from network); 10 Jul 1999 03:28:22 -0000 Received: from bonkers.neosoft.com (HELO bonkers.taronga.com) (206.109.2.48) by mushi.colo.neosoft.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 1999 03:28:22 -0000 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA00573; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:27:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from arielle) From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199907100327.WAA00573@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, dattier@Mcs.Net Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:27:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin wrote: > | as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the > | list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > > How can you be sure it's really this list, Stephanie? I looked. > Did you send email to list-managers-owner@egroups.com and find it went to > owner-list-managers@greatcircle.com or something like that? I just can't > see how you reached that conclusion. Maybe its archives contained posts > from this list, and that's how you knew? Its archives contain over 9000 messages from this list, going all the way back to the very first one posted in 1992 to the ones I posted today. list-managers isn't the only list. I briefly looked (briefly because their web interface is slow for me) and saw hundreds of third-party lists, many that I recognized. I wish I knew whose archives they obtained to do this with. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 20:52:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA24823; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA24814 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 20:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Jupiter.mcs.net (Jupiter.mcs.net [192.160.127.88]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.7/8.8.2) with ESMTP id WAA00224 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:39:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Jupiter.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id WAA19498 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:39:08 -0500 (CDT) From: "David W. Tamkin" Message-Id: <199907100339.WAA19498@Jupiter.mcs.net> Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:39:08 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199907100327.WAA00573@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Jul 9, 99 10:27:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When Stephanie said that list-managers@eGroups.com showed on eGroups ... | > | as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the | > | list-managers@greatcircle.com list. I asked, | > How can you be sure it's really this list, Stephanie? ... | > Maybe its archives contained posts from this list, and that's how you knew? | Its archives contain over 9000 messages from this list, going all | the way back to the very first one posted in 1992 to the ones I | posted today. That would prove it. Thank you. Well, all the more reason to restrict post- ing privileges on all lists to members only. Join through eGroups, and you're not a legitimate member, and you can't post. Then when the listowner tells you what's going on and why you have no posting rights, scream bloody murder at eGroups for their deceit. (And it's anyone's guess what happens to mail sent to list-managers-owner@egroups.com.) From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 21:22:12 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25205; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mars.hosting4u.net (mars.hosting4u.net [209.15.2.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA25198 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) From: majorhost@p-trader.net Received: from p-trader.net ([209.15.20.212]) by mars.hosting4u.net ; Fri, 09 Jul 1999 23:08:10 -600 Reply-to: majorhost@p-trader.net To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:08:10 -600 GMT Subject: Tag Lines Message-id: <3786c72a.3449.0@p-trader.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can MajorDomo automaticly insert tagline and a prefix on the subject line? Thanks.. http://www.p-trader.net From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 21:36:36 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25385; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25366 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA26070 ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:24:56 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199907100250.VAA10248@Mars.mcs.net> References: <199907100250.VAA10248@Mars.mcs.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:24:00 -0700 To: "David W. Tamkin" From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:50 PM -0500 7/9/99, David W. Tamkin wrote: > How can you be sure it's really this list, Stephanie? I don't see anything > in what you quoted that shows it's really the list on greatcircle.com. Try: -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + The Jedi that I admire most met up with Darth Maul and now he's toast... (Weird Al Yankovic - The Saga Begins) From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 21:51:57 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25448; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25441 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA19927; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA15242; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:35:07 -0400 (EDT) From: murr rhame To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-Reply-To: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Stephanie da Silva wrote: > As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the > list-managers list at eGroups and got this welcome message. > As you can see, it's marked as being at eGroups but it is > without a doubt the list-managers@greatcircle.com list. How were you able to determine that the eGroups "list-managers' is the same as the GreatCircle list of the same name? > Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands > of existing lists or are they hijacking lists? If they are claiming ownership of lists that are owned and operated by others and they don't have permission, they must be actively seeking a wide verity fraud problems, both civil and criminal... I would hope that they aren't that bold and that dumb. - murr - From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 22:06:38 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25221; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25214 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA38436 ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:10:41 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9907100121.AA00241@mynext.slb.com> References: <9907100121.AA00241@mynext.slb.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:10:36 -0700 To: garyb@outlawnet.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Mass non-bulk mailing Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary: your from line is hosed. You're lucky it's masked by your reply-to:" From: Gary E Bickford > More interestingly, we're presently running Sendmail 8.9.x. What kind of >issues should I look at regarding the MTA? The Java servlet/bean/whatever > doesn't presently combine these and pass them to sendmail in >batches - should it? I wouldn't. I'd batch them separately, but use QueueSortOrder=host to deliver We have a 1MB/s guaranteed, 9MB/s max connection so I don't see a problem with overall bandwidth. Your big issues then are managing queue size to minimize directory overhead, and disk I/O. Loading your queue dirs into a ram disk will do wonders for that. -- Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? ) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) + The Jedi that I admire most met up with Darth Maul and now he's toast... (Weird Al Yankovic - The Saga Begins) From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 22:21:42 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA25858; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail15.svr.pol.co.uk (mail15.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.25]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA25851 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-93.technetium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.93] ident=cc047) by mail15.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 112pSb-0007C3-00; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:14:01 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 06:13:57 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: "Michael C. Berch" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-Reply-To: <3786AA8F.B51A23A@postmodern.com> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Michael C. Berch wrote: > [...] eGroups' claim of "moderation", etc., is confusing to users and > we plan to ask them to stop. Good luck trying to reach a human. It took me several months before I could. And I never reached a human who actually understood what I was asking about. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 22:34:01 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25587; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (mail3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25579 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-93.technetium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.21.93] ident=cc047) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 112owl-0005XA-00; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:41:08 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 05:41:01 +0100 (BST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-Sender: cc047@arpad.thegreen.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: arielle@taronga.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: eGroups archiving third-party mailing lists now? In-Reply-To: <19990709200705.5587.qmail@mushi.colo.neosoft.com> Message-ID: Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 arielle@taronga.com wrote: > Was just now preusing eGroups to see what they've done since their > site redesign and discovered they have a lot of non-eGroups lists > in there now. Findmail used to only archive third party lists, and egroups swallowed findmail a few years ago. In fact, that is how one of my majordomo-based lists got there. > Each non-eGroups list -- that I've looked at so far, just a couple -- > have a "Join this eGroup" button, so it looks like they have set up a > third-party subscribe interface. Unfortunately not. You need to "join" the list at eGroups in order to read the archive. This really has confused a number of my list members. In addition to the one group that they inherited from findmail, in January this year I got them to archive another majordomo-based list. This was possible through their create new list mechanism. The difficulty was getting them to put up the old material. Findmail was very good about this. They had an ftp site into which you uploaded your own archives and they'd have it added in a day. eGroups offers the same basic service, but it took four months before they managed to make use of the majordomo archive I uploaded. Plus it was nearly impossible to get in touch with a human. When I finally did get a response from a human, the response was such a non-sequiter that I thought I was talking to a very badly designed bot. Basically, I thought that findmail did a good job at this sort of thing, and egroups is keeping workign redirects for the old findmail URLs, so I'm sticking with egroups. But I am not happy with their archiving and system for third party lists. Maybe I will take a closer look at liszt/topica. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826 Cranfield Computer Centre FAX 751 814 J.Goldberg@Cranfield.ac.uk http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 23:04:03 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA26145; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA26138 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15835 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:04:08 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:39:08 -0500. <199907100339.WAA19498@Jupiter.mcs.net> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:04:08 -0700 Message-ID: <15833.931583048@monkeys.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199907100339.WAA19498@Jupiter.mcs.net>, "David W. Tamkin" wrote: >(And it's anyone's guess what happens to mail sent to > list-managers-owner@egroups.com.) Is there really much doubt in your mind about what most probably happens to it? My first (and only) guess is that it is probably auto-forwarded to the _actual_ owner of this _actual_ mailing list. This approach would neatly absolve any eGroups personel from having to share any of the actual workload of actually running the mailing list. thus leaving them with more free time to copy yet more lists that they also did not create and which they also play no active role in maintaining. -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- FREE Web Harvester Protection - http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ - Try it! -- FREE DynamicIP Spam Filtering - http://www.imrss.org/dssl/ - TELL YOUR ISP! From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 23:19:05 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA26117; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id WAA26110 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15558; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:54:04 -0700 To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:30:16 -0500. <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 21:54:04 -0700 Message-ID: <15556.931582444@monkeys.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com>, you wrote: >As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the list-managers list >at eGroups and got this welcome message. As you can see, it's marked >as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the >list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > >Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands of existing >lists or are they hijacking lists? > > >Forwarded message: >> From list-managers-return-@returns.egroups.com Fri Jul 9 19:16:29 1999 >> Message-Id: <199907100016.TAA26096@bonkers.taronga.com> >> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 19:58:31 -0000 >> From: "eGroups.com Manager" >> Subject: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is really rather disgusting. They don't own this mailing list, and as far as I know, they didn't do any of the work necessary to create it or build it up. I realize that these people believe that they are trying to provide some sort of value-added service, but... If you go down to Kinko's, make a color photocopy of an Andy Warhol painting, slap a new frame around it, SIGN YOUR NAME TO IT, and then go out and sell it, ain't that copyright infringement? (The part about signing your own name to it just adds insult to injury.) Of course the same question applies to USENET news postings and DejaNews, but I think that it could be argued that nobody really owns those. Well, if someone wanted to do so, they _could_ go into court and sue DejaNews for archiving their USENET news postings, but that would be a lot like suing someone for handing out photocopies of a political leaflet that you yourself were handing out copies of on the streetcorner the day before, i.e. not a very sensible thing to sue someone over. I am not a lawyer, and I don't even play one on the Interent, but it seems to me that there must be a certain set of things which a "creator" might do which would, under the law (Berne convention?), put his/her creations into the public domain, and that handing out leaflets on a streetcorner and/or posting one's thoughts to USENET news might both be among that set of acts which renders these creations into the public domain. But even if that all is true, that still leaves the question, ``Is posting to an E-mail mailing list which happens to be open to the public one of the acts which renders one's thoughts into the public domain?'' I suppose that we won't know the answer to that until someone gets really ticked off enough and decides to sue either eGroups or Topica. I gotta say though that I question the wisdom of building a long-term business plan around a practice which could be legally ruled to be equivalent to theft at essentially any moment. (I suspect that the founders hope to take the these companies public... and to then quickly cash themselves out... before that actually happens.) -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- FREE Web Harvester Protection - http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ - Try it! -- FREE DynamicIP Spam Filtering - http://www.imrss.org/dssl/ - TELL YOUR ISP! From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 9 23:49:07 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26556; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mushi.colo.neosoft.com (mushi.colo.neosoft.com [206.109.6.82]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id XAA26549 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29822 invoked from network); 10 Jul 1999 06:36:06 -0000 Received: from bonkers.neosoft.com (HELO bonkers.taronga.com) (206.109.2.48) by mushi.colo.neosoft.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 1999 06:36:06 -0000 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA04188 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:34:50 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from arielle) From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199907100634.BAA04188@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 01:34:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk murr rhame: > > As you can see, it's marked as being at eGroups but it is > > without a doubt the list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > > How were you able to determine that the eGroups "list-managers' > is the same as the GreatCircle list of the same name? http://www.egroups.com/group/list-managers/info.html From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 10 00:04:06 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26420; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26411 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA03576; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 02:20:55 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: "David W. Tamkin" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. Message-ID: <19990710022055.K298@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <199907100030.TAA26716@bonkers.taronga.com> <199907100250.VAA10248@Mars.mcs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199907100250.VAA10248@Mars.mcs.net>; from David W. Tamkin on Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 09:50:13PM -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, Jul 09, 1999 at 09:50:13PM -0500, David W. Tamkin wrote: > Stephanie da Silva wrote, > > | As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the list-managers list > | at eGroups and got this welcome message. As you can see, it's marked > | as being at eGroups but it is without a doubt the > | list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > > How can you be sure it's really this list, Stephanie? I don't see anything > in what you quoted that shows it's really the list on greatcircle.com. See http://www.egroups.com/list/list-managers. There is an extremely suspicious amount of overlap between messages on "that" list and messages on "this" list. -- Regards, Tim Pierce RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative system obfuscator and hack-of-all-trades From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 10 00:19:02 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26548; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26540 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA17067 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 22:45:20 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: eGroups.com: You have been added to the list-managers eGroup. In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 10 Jul 1999 00:35:07 -0400. From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 22:45:20 -0700 Message-ID: <17065.931585520@monkeys.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , murr rhame wrote: >On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Stephanie da Silva wrote: > >> As I mentioned before, I tried subscr|bing to the >> list-managers list at eGroups and got this welcome message. >> As you can see, it's marked as being at eGroups but it is >> without a doubt the list-managers@greatcircle.com list. > >How were you able to determine that the eGroups "list-managers' >is the same as the GreatCircle list of the same name? > >> Did I miss something where eGroups made a pact with thousands >> of existing lists or are they hijacking lists? > >If they are claiming ownership of lists that are owned and >operated by others and they don't have permission, they must be >actively seeking a wide verity fraud problems, both civil and >criminal... I would hope that they aren't that bold and that >dumb. It appears that you hope in vain. As regards criminal law, I don't see how that is involved. A civil suit would however have considerable merit, in my opinion. Now it is just a question of who wants to step up to the plate and file such an action. An interesting possibility: I am hardly a law historian, but I would wager that there has rarely, if ever, been any such thing as a class action copyright infringement suit. (I dunno. Maybe the recent suit relating to Diamond Multimedia's Rio MP3 player was one. I think the whole recording industry sued them. But still, it is a definite novelty, I think.) Anyway, perhaps the participants on this list, in particular, might want to band together and make some legal history. I mean after all, if any of you are unhappy that these eGroups folks are (it appears) just snatching your lists and then ``rebranding'' them, would you really be satisfied if you were only able to get them to cease and desist from doing that to YOUR lists? Or would you find it more enjoyable to get them to stop doing this to ALL lists? The only way to legally compel them to do the latter, I believe, would be via a class action. Otherwise, the most you can do, legally, is to compel them to stop snatching YOUR lists (which I suspect that they are willing to do for any list owner who bitches loud enough anyway). -- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc. -- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo: http://www.e-scrub.com/deadbolt/ -- FREE Web Harvester Protection - http://www.e-scrub.com/wpoison/ - Try it! -- FREE DynamicIP Spam Filtering - http://www.imrss.org/dssl/ - TELL YOUR ISP! From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 10 00:34:02 1999 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26708; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id XAA26694 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 23:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dragoncat.net (herne.dragoncat.net [216.122.4.136]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id BAA10569 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 01:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: fro