From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 2 09:53:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA28689; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:47:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sparknet.net (mail.sparknet.net [207.67.22.140]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA28682 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 09:47:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from z (z.sparklist.com [207.250.191.2]) by mail.sparknet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06712 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:59:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000202115714.00977ca0@207.67.22.140> X-Sender: chriss@207.67.22.140 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 12:00:39 -0600 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Christopher Knight Subject: Re: Remarq? --> acquired by CP.net In-Reply-To: <20000131191254.B19930@akamai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:12 PM 1/31/00 -0500, David Shaw wrote: >Can anyone out there tell me anything about Remarq.com? >They seem to be doing odd things with subscribing pseudo-users.. >I just got a subscription for a "Q_1003036_m1key@lists.remarq.com". >David Hey David, They were just acquired by Critical Path: http://www.cp.net/media/pr_jan31_00.html Cheers, Christopher M. Knight, CEO SparkLIST.com Corporation =95 The Business Email List Experts =95 --------------------------------------------------------------- SparkLIST Email List Hosting, Promotions & Management Service Tel: +1 888-SparkNET, ext 212 or +1 920-490-5901, ext 212 Private Fax: +1 920-490.5909 =95 http://SparkLIST.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 5 12:08:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19896; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id LAA19888 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Feb 2000 11:07:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA16031 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from SOUTINE2K (adsl-151-202-20-126.bellatlantic.net [151.202.20.126]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA24923 for ; Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:52:18 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Re: Remarq Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 18:52:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200002010900.BAA05122@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Shaw asked: > Can anyone out there tell me anything about Remarq.com? > > They seem to be doing odd things with subscribing pseudo-users.. > > I just got a subscription for a "Q_1003036_m1key@lists.remarq.com". These are not pseudo-users (in the sense of artificial addresses used for archiving, spam extraction, etc); they are Remarq users who have signed up for your list using Remarq's web interface and are reading it through same. One of your lists is known to Remarq: http://www.remarq.com/search?q=sex%2Dwizards&si=board&so=board&nav=FIRST but they require that you be personally subscribed (in Remarq userid form) to the actual list, in order to read and post via their website: http://www.remarq.com/subscribe.q?g=1003036&ss=1&v=doconfirm If I did this, and my Remarq userid was Kumquat, then you would get a subscription for Q_1004827_Kumquat@lists.remarq.com . From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 6 08:09:25 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA04863; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA04856 for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 08:01:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from preferreduser ([32.100.41.38]) by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <20000206161619.WSHA2478@preferreduser> for ; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 16:16:19 +0000 Message-ID: <003101bf70bd$648179c0$26296420@preferreduser> From: "Paul Kaytes" To: References: <200002060900.BAA28050@honor.greatcircle.com> Subject: Finding a home Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:15:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been reading this digest for several weeks now, and am chiming in with a question. I'm planning on being a list manager, but unfortunately, the .edu server that I was going to use has decided that it doesn't want to host mailing lists anymore, so I'm stuck. I've subscribed to a Onelist mailing list just to see how it works, but don't want to deal with advertising, and don't want my subscribers to, either. And now that Esosoft has merged with Topica, I fear that it too may go down the advertising path. Actually, if it was just me dealing with advertising that would be OK, I just don't want my subscribers dealing with it, and the inevitable spam lists it'll get you put on. Could anybody point me in a direction where I might find a home for my list (it's about live music, bands, trading, no bootleg selling or selling of anything, actually). Free would be best, of course, but I wouldn't mind paying for it if I have to. Thanks for your time, Paul From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 7 06:39:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20278; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from argo.gifrance.com (argo.gifrance.com [212.208.161.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA20271 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from gifrance.com (alcor.gi.fr [192.168.2.93]) by argo.gifrance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C075FE0 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:42:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <389EDADF.17D54711@gifrance.com> Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:46:55 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Fibra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: MLM, your opinion ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I was wondering whether you guys could tell me what you think of some MLMs I'm considering right now... The platform I intend to install the MLM on is Solaris 2.6, and I still haven't made up my mind between Mailman 1.1 and Sympa 2.4. In addition, I really need a product that will enable my application to deal with foreign languages, especially french. Would you mind sharing your own experience about it ? Do you think another product would be suitable and/or better ? Thanks, Seb. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 7 06:54:32 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20475; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail02.rapidsite.net (mail02.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.68]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id GAA20468 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 06:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.jadebox.com (207.158.243.143) by mail02.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.53) with SMTP id 09938 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:47:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00a401bf717a$417aaa10$9ebbf1d1@tacintel.com> From: "Roger Smith" To: References: <200002060900.BAA28050@honor.greatcircle.com> <003101bf70bd$648179c0$26296420@preferreduser> Subject: Re: Finding a home Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:47:28 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Could anybody point me in a direction where I might find a home for my list > (it's about live music, bands, trading, no bootleg selling or selling of > anything, actually). Free would be best, of course, but I wouldn't mind > paying for it if I have to. If you expect your list to be a moderate sized list (less than a couple thousand subscribers at most) and you're running Windows, you might consider using Arrow (http://www.jadebox.com/arrow/). Arrow uses a standard e-mail account (POP3/SMTP) -- Roger Harry Nilsson's "The Point!" on DVD? Maybe! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00003CXC2/theharrynilssowe/ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 7 07:09:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20651; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA20644 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 07:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 1079619 invoked by uid 3995); 7 Feb 2000 15:18:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14494.57910.986717.250719@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:18:14 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Sill To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Finding a home In-Reply-To: <003101bf70bd$648179c0$26296420@preferreduser> References: <200002060900.BAA28050@honor.greatcircle.com> <003101bf70bd$648179c0$26296420@preferreduser> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under 21.1 "20 Minutes to Nikko" XEmacs Lucid (patch 2) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >... Actually, if >it was just me dealing with advertising that would be OK, I just don't want >my subscribers dealing with it, and the inevitable spam lists it'll get you >put on. I've never gotten spam due to subscription to Egroups lists. The web archives cloak e-mail addresses, and spammers are too lazy to subscribe to lists for harvesting addresses. -Dave From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 7 11:10:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA23529; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net ([207.195.149.217]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA23522 for ; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:06:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F300DAF8A7; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14594; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:20:17 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:20:17 -0800 (PST) From: Jeremy Blackman To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Fibra Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MLM, your opinion ? In-Reply-To: <389EDADF.17D54711@gifrance.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 7 Feb 2000, [iso-8859-1] S=E9bastien Fibra wrote: > In addition, I really need a product that will enable my application to > deal with foreign languages, especially french. Then Sympa is honestly your best bet; at the moment, its localization support is unmatched. I also would discourage you from using Mailman; from everything I have seen, Mailman development has died off... perhaps unfortunate, since it was nice to see an MLM with the backing of the FSF, but... Mailman also has very little localization support, from my admittedly limited experience playing with it. Localization seems to be a big weakness of many MLMs, my own Listar included, unfortunately. Sympa is best for your needs, I think, since it already has localization and comes with a French language file. Hope that helps! :) --=20 Jeremy Blackman - loki@maison-otaku.net / loki@listar.org / jeremy@lith.com Lithtech Team, Monolith Productions -- http://www.lith.com Listar Developer -- http://www.listar.org From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 00:38:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA01748; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from listes.cru.fr (listes.cru.fr [195.220.94.165]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA01740 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from home.cru.fr (home.cru.fr [195.220.94.79]) by listes.cru.fr (8.9.2/jtpda-5.3.2) with ESMTP id JAA03066 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:18:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from home.cru.fr (IDENT:salaun@localhost.cru.fr [127.0.0.1]) by home.cru.fr (8.9.3/jtpda-5.3.1) with ESMTP id JAA15166 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:18:07 +0100 Message-Id: <200002080818.JAA15166@home.cru.fr> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.3 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MLM, your opinion ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:46:55 +0100." <389EDADF.17D54711@gifrance.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 09:18:07 +0100 From: Olivier Salaun - CRU Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sebastien Fibra wrote : > I was wondering whether you guys could tell me what you think of some > MLMs I'm considering right now... > The platform I intend to install the MLM on is Solaris 2.6, and I still > haven't made up my mind between Mailman 1.1 and Sympa 2.4. > In addition, I really need a product that will enable my application to > deal with foreign languages, especially french. Sympa has a complete french translation and is widely used by french universities. Sympa 2.4 also comes with german and spanish NLS catalogues. Next version will include italian and chinese (BIG5 chinese, and GB chinese). -------------- Olivier Salaun Comite Reseaux des Universites From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 10:39:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA11452; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:36:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA11445 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:36:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id KAA25647; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:52:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:52:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: cnorman@best.com Subject: Oversized emails? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm in need of a reality check and figured you guys would be the perfect people for it. I belong to a barter network. I also used to do some internet/web consulting for them but they don't listen to me (took me and another web person working with them about a dozen emails to convince them not to use a third "internet person" who was about to spam the universe with their ads, but that's another story). They've recently been bought out by a national company and the obnoxiousness factor has gone up several notches. Yesterday I recieved their usual weekly newsletter (in HTML since they laugh at me when I tell them text is the better default). It included an 800k attachment, a picture of leather furniture one of their members sells. Of course it translated to over 11 thousand lines of junk on my system. And the rest of the message was mostly unreadble (as always) cause of really bad HTML. I complained. I was not very nice about it. I was pissed. Their reaction was to PHONE me twice at like 7:30 in the morning (my machine got it) and say that they'd be happy to cancel my membership and they can't believe a web design person would not be able to recieve attachments that were under a meg (said as if that were small) and I should upgrade my email. Obviously, my email arrangements are not the issue. I can view attachments if I want to by forwarding them to another account. They tell me I'm the only one who complains and don't seem to get that by suggesting changes (which I have always done very nicely and politely in the past) I am giving them free help on how to improve things for all their customers. Their view is that the attachment "sells lots of leather furniture" so it's okay. So... Given that they are running a mailing list (announcement only) for their customers, is my assessment of their choices off the mark? Do note that they send this newsletter to all of their customers for whom they have an email address (and now their fees are lower if you give them an email address) and don't ask permission first, let alone about preferences for HTML or attachments. They also fax a version out but I finally got removed from that list since they were calling at 2 in the morning when my fax-modem/computer was off. Anyway, validation would be nice. Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 13:24:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA13490; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:18:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA13483 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mavery2.pernet.net [205.229.2.19]) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA37842; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:32:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.47); 8 Feb 00 15:34:06 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.47); 8 Feb 00 15:34:02 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:33:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Reply-to: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com CC: cnorman@best.com Message-ID: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> In-reply-to: <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk HTML BAD!!! Big messages BAD!! Sending that crap without asking permission first - VERY BAD!!! All in all, it sounds like they are clueless, and that it's time to move on to another service. Mike On 8 Feb 2000, at 10:52, Cyndi Norman wrote: > I'm in need of a reality check and figured you guys would be the > perfect people for it. > > I belong to a barter network. I also used to do some internet/web > consulting for them but they don't listen to me (took me and another > web person working with them about a dozen emails to convince them not > to use a third "internet person" who was about to spam the universe > with their ads, but that's another story). > > They've recently been bought out by a national company and the > obnoxiousness factor has gone up several notches. Yesterday I > recieved their usual weekly newsletter (in HTML since they laugh at me > when I tell them text is the better default). It included an 800k > attachment, a picture of leather furniture one of their members sells. > Of course it translated to over 11 thousand lines of junk on my > system. And the rest of the message was mostly unreadble (as always) > cause of really bad HTML. > > I complained. I was not very nice about it. I was pissed. > > Their reaction was to PHONE me twice at like 7:30 in the morning (my > machine got it) and say that they'd be happy to cancel my membership > and they can't believe a web design person would not be able to > recieve attachments that were under a meg (said as if that were small) > and I should upgrade my email. > > Obviously, my email arrangements are not the issue. I can view > attachments if I want to by forwarding them to another account. They > tell me I'm the only one who complains and don't seem to get that by > suggesting changes (which I have always done very nicely and politely > in the past) I am giving them free help on how to improve things for > all their customers. Their view is that the attachment "sells lots of > leather furniture" so it's okay. > > So... > > Given that they are running a mailing list (announcement only) for > their customers, is my assessment of their choices off the mark? Do > note that they send this newsletter to all of their customers for whom > they have an email address (and now their fees are lower if you give > them an email address) and don't ask permission first, let alone about > preferences for HTML or attachments. They also fax a version out but > I finally got removed from that list since they were calling at 2 in > the morning when my fax-modem/computer was off. > > Anyway, validation would be nice. > > Thanks, > Cyndi > > -- > ______________________________________________________________________ > _________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's > Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) > cyndi@consultclarity.com > http://www.tikvah.com/ > _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists > http://www.immuneweb.org/ -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (voice) (409)-842-4352 (FAX) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Code: (v.) process of concealing bugs by programming. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 13:54:30 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA13818; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:48:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kachina.jetcafe.org (kachina.jetcafe.org [205.147.43.2]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA13811 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-nt (eckert@netcom4.netcom.com [199.183.9.104]) by kachina.jetcafe.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA21442; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000208135912.00979dc0@pop.climber.org> X-Sender: eckert@pop.climber.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:59:12 -0800 To: cnorman@best.com From: SRE Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:52 AM 2/8/00 -0800, Cyndi Norman wrote: >them text is the better default). It included an 800k attachment, a >picture of leather furniture one of their members sells. Of course it >translated to over 11 thousand lines of junk on my system. And the rest of >the message was mostly unreadble (as always) cause of really bad HTML. Demime home page: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.html Demime perl script: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime.stable Demime config file: http://scifi.squawk.com/demime_junkmail.cf Put it in a pipe for the posting alias, and all HTML gets turned into plain text. Non-text attachments are deleted and a note is left where they were. Freebie account footers can be stripped if you set that up. It's boinked a couple of viruses on my server, and it's helped some MSOutlook users communicate with the server (I put it in the server command alias also, so the server doesn't get formatted text.) Stripping is a much better solution than bouncing. It took me a few years to reach that conclusion... SRE mailto:eckert@climber.org | http://www.climber.org/eckert/ Info on peak climbing email lists mailto:info@climber.org Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie!'... until you can find a rock. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 14:09:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA13876; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:53:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1.vnet.net (smtp1.vnet.net [166.82.1.31]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA13867 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp1.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA06701; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA29860; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:08:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:08:37 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Cyndi Norman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-Reply-To: <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Given that they are running a mailing list (announcement > only) for their customers, is my assessment of their choices > off the mark? Do note that they send this newsletter to all > of their customers for whom they have an email address (and > now their fees are lower if you give them an email address) > and don't ask permission first, let alone about preferences > for HTML or attachments. They also fax a version out but I > finally got removed from that list since they were calling at > 2 in the morning when my fax-modem/computer was off. Sending unsolicited faxes is illegal in the US under federal law. There is a fairly stiff penalty per incident (a few hundred bucks as I recall). Do a web search on "junk fax" is you want more info. Sending unsolicited emails is not illegal. Sending unsolicited email is called spam. Most Internet service providers have strict policies against spamming. Because of this, many spammers steal services by secretly directing their spam through unprotected email servers to conceal the identity of the spammer. If this company is sending unsolicited email, I would contact their ISP and complain. If you don't know who they get their Internet services from, I can help you track this down. As for the size of their emails and the choice of using the HTML format, I consider this rude, clueless and arrogant. Doesn't make good business sense to tick off your potential customers. There are a few unusual mailing lists that regularly distribute large attachments. I would expect a warning that the list distributes big files and hope that they had a no-attachment subscription option. BTW: 800k for a single photograph is absurd. A 100k Jpeg will produce a large sharp photograph. They must have sent a bitmap file. - murr - From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 14:39:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA14380; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA14371 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:37:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.198] (A17-216-27-198.apple.com [17.216.27.198]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA69592 ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:51:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> References: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:52:16 -0800 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Cc: cnorman@best.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:33 PM -0600 2/8/2000, Mike Avery wrote: > HTML BAD!!! > > Big messages BAD!! > > Sending that crap without asking permission first - VERY BAD!!! One our of three isn't bad. HTML isn't bad. big messages aren't bad. sending either without the person saying it's okay -- that's bad, although even then, the answer is "it depends". When Amazon moved their update subscriptions to supporting HTML, they converted all their subscriptions to HTML, and gave people a way to change back. Another service that's currently working on adding the same functionality, but which shall remain nameless, looked at the same issue, and decided to leave everyone on the text version of the publication, and to set things up to make it easy to switch to HTML if they want it. it all comes down to which choice is better for your audience. I know, for instance, that a recent survey of subscribers to a certain mailing list system on what those subscribers wanted, 50% asked for an HTML version, and 20% didn't care, leaving only 30% who preferred the text-only option. And frankly, if you're sure 70-80% of your users are going to want to change to HTML, then it *does* make sense to switch everyone over and ask the others to switch back, on the principle of doing what is best for the largest part of your population. Yes, you'll honk off some folks -- but whatever you do, including nothing, will honk off some part of a group. So decisions need to get made by the principles of least-harm/most-good. to say "html bad" is very, oh, 1996. maybe 1997. HTML, when well done, is very good. In fact, for a general audience, I could make a good argument that not even bothering with a text-only list would be okay. Yes, 20% of users prefer text-only, but the percentage of those who'd do without is much smaller than that, depending mostly, of course, on how interesting the content is. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 15:39:35 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14996; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:27:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.beenz.com (web1.beenz.com [209.67.222.56]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14988 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from beenz.com (beenzldn [195.167.135.2]) by mail.beenz.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22076; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:42:42 -0500 Message-ID: <38A0A9F1.D070F032@beenz.com> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 23:42:41 +0000 From: Richard Leyton Organization: beenz.com inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Blackman CC: =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= Fibra , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MLM, your opinion ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeremy Blackman wrote: > Then Sympa is honestly your best bet; at the moment, its localization > support is unmatched. I also would discourage you from using Mailman; > from everything I have seen, Mailman development has died off... perhaps > unfortunate, since it was nice to see an MLM with the backing of the FSF, > but... I beg to differ. The author is looking like he's about to release the first beta of what might ultimately become 1.2/2.0. > Mailman also has very little localization support, from my admittedly > limited experience playing with it. Agreed, it's a bit of a pain to tweak some aspects, but the subscriber facing sections/web pages are very customisable, and that's often what it boils down to. If all else fails, use the source Luke! But that depends on how keen you are to roll up your sleeves. Regards, Richard. -- Richard Leyton mailto:richard@beenz.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 15:54:32 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA14964; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:24:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA14957 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA35440; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) To: cnorman@best.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:52:09 -0800. <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 15:39:50 -0800 Message-ID: <35438.950053190@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com>, cnorman@best.com wrote: >I belong to a barter network... >... >They've recently been bought out by a national company and the >obnoxiousness factor has gone up several notches. Just in case it ain't already obvious to everybody, let me just say that the `obnoxiousness factor' has gone up several notches throughout the Internet in the past few years. This can be attributed to several factors, but two in particular seem important. First, there is the `gold rush' mentality. Rightly or wrongly, advertisers, i.e. anyone who wants to `push' something, have come to view the Internet the same way that people in the oil business view Alaska's north slope, i.e. a great new natural resource to be `mined' ruthlessly until it's exhausted. Second, as any psychologist will tell you, the bigger the crowd, the less people feel that they are (or should be) accountable. And the Internet now represents a VERY big crowd. Large crowds lend an aura of anonymity. You might be tempted to dance with a lampshade on your head at a huge frat party attended by a couple of hundred people, but you would never do it at a small dinner party of a dozen people. >So... > >Given that they are running a mailing list (announcement only) for their >customers, is my assessment of their choices off the mark? No. They are being `push mentality' bozos. >Do note that >they send this newsletter to all of their customers for whom they have an >email address (and now their fees are lower if you give them an email >address)... Hehe. Recently, the Albertson's supermarket near me got bought/exchanged, and now it is a Ralph's supermarket. Ralph's is doing essentially the same thing... they have crappy prices on everything _unless_ you show them your red `Ralph's card'. Of course, they then use your card number (together with checkout scanner data) to insure that all of your purchases are tabulated. So Ralph's knows if you are rou- tinely buying condoms or baby wipes or whatever. But I got the better of them, and their system, and I'm pretty proud of it. It was simple actually. When they first took over the store, they were handing out the red cards, and with each one they would also hand you a form to fill out, upon which you are SUPPOSED to fill in your name, address, phone number, e-mail address, etc., etc. I kept the red card and threw away the form. I've been using the card ever since to get the lower prices. Nobody has ever called me on it, so I guess that their software isn't sophisticated enough yet to alert the checkout clerks that there is no actual personal data on file for that card number... which is fine by me. Somewhere in some obscure mainframe, there is a detailed record of the purchasing habits of a man without a name, address, etc., etc. :-) >Anyway, validation would be nice. Validated. As data mining and the `push mentality' become more and more invasive, there's going to be a progressively bigger and bigger backlash. It's starting already: http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_07/b3668065.htm From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 16:09:31 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA15210; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA15203 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA35519; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: abuse@get.topica.com Subject: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:00:31 -0800 Message-ID: <35517.950054431@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Awhile ago, I posted here some info explaining why egroups/onelist got their e-mail blacklisted for this domain. Just to show that I don't play favorites, I've also now blacklisted TOPICA.COM here on the basis of the abusive OPT-OUT spam message included below, and I'm recommending to all of you that if you are looking or a place to host your list, that you look around for alternatives other than TOPICA. Note that this message was sent to one of my many ``spam trap'' addresses, specifically one that had been dead/defunct for well over a year. Note also TOPICA is using the exact same abusive OPT-OUT approach as all other spammers do... The default is that you ARE subscribed (whether you like it or not) to whatever list they want to put you on, and then you have to request to be removed. I've already informed the people at TOPICA that this is actionable spam under current California law, and since both they (TOPICA) and the server they sent this to are located in California, pressing the matter in the courts (which I *will* do if they continue to spam) will be a piece of cake. -- rfg P.S. The absolute unmitigated gall of spammers never ceases to amaze me. If you read the following spam, you'll see it quite clearly. In effect, the following message says ``You've been subscribed to this list, whether you like it or not, and oh, by the way, we really care a lot about spam.'' Yea. Right. P.P.S. IF TOPICA cares so much about spam, then one must wonder why they allow the mysterious `Natasha' (who has no phone number and no last name) to sign their abusive ``you have been subscribed'' messages. Perhaps she's too busy working with Boris to get squirrel and moose to take phone calls from disgruntled people have have been optted-in to TOPICA's lists without their consent. ========================================================================== >From support_bounce@get.topica.com Mon Feb 7 19:12:-- 2000 Received: from outmta006.topica.com (outmta006.topica.com [206.132.75.208]) by -------.--- (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id -------- for <------@------.--->; Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:12:-- -0800 (PST) To: ------@------.--- From: Osama Subject: Welcome to Taha Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 19:14:-- -0800 Message-ID: <----------------------------------@----------> Reply-To: skinsense-unsubscribe@topica.com Osama, the owner of the mailing list 'Taha', has added you to this list at Topica. Here's the description of the list: The secrets you need to know about having and keeping soft, smooth, clean and healthy skin, hair and nails. Straight from the experts. If you do NOT want to be added to this list, simply reply to this message, and you will be immediately removed. You can unsubscribe from this list at any time by sending a blank message to skinsense-unsubscribe@topica.com . You can reach the list owner at marketingdreamz@yahoo.com. Topica cares about your privacy, and we take great measures to fight "spam." If you feel that someone is abusing the Topica system or is using your email address without your consent, please let us know by reporting it to abuse@get.topica.com. Thank you, Natasha Topica Customer Support From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 16:24:29 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA15631; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from thwack.nas.nasa.gov (thwack.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.34.57]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15624 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:20:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from chrystal@localhost) by thwack.nas.nasa.gov (8.9.3/NAS8.8.7n) id QAA19727 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:36:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:36:13 -0800 From: "Chrystal M. Cowdrey" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Message-ID: <20000208163613.D16301@thwack.nas.nasa.gov> References: <200002081852.KAA25647@shell7.ba.best.com> <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I randomly ended up on a couple of mailing lists that do this. I have not attempted to be removed from them. Mostly from fear of being added to the ah-ha-this-address-works! list. I have just added them to my .procmailrc file and trash the messages before I ever see them. It's possible that the customers that _do_ care are just too jaded by this kind of stupidity to even bother anymore. I'd be willing to bet that if they bothered to _ask_ people for their preferences when they harvest their addresses they would find that things are very different from their assumptions. I'm just glad I don't have to budget for and administrate the monster mail system that they must to have to handle this load. :-) -chrystal -- <> Chrystal M. Cowdrey NAS Desktop Support <> <> 650/604-4271 Sterling Software <> <> 650/604-4377 (fax) chrystal@nas.nasa.gov <> On Tue, 08 Feb 2000, Mike Avery wrote: > HTML BAD!!! > > Big messages BAD!! > > Sending that crap without asking permission first - VERY BAD!!! > > All in all, it sounds like they are clueless, and that it's time to move > on to another service. > > Mike > From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 16:39:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA15765; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15754 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.198] (A17-216-27-198.apple.com [17.216.27.198]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17064 ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:43:33 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38A0A9F1.D070F032@beenz.com> References: <38A0A9F1.D070F032@beenz.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:44:25 -0800 To: Richard Leyton , Jeremy Blackman From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: MLM, your opinion ? Cc: Sébastien Fibra , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:42 PM +0000 2/8/2000, Richard Leyton wrote: > I beg to differ. The author is looking like he's about to release the first > beta of what might ultimately become 1.2/2.0. I like most of Mailman -- but it's written in Python, and that means that using it requires installing (and, ultimately), learning yet another programming language. Sympa is in perl, which most sites will have installed, so that's one less detail to worry about, and I know perl, so I can at least dink with it if I need to, and I didn't think mailman brought enough extra to the trough to warrant the extra work needed to use it. That's not a criticism of mailman, but stuff to keep in mind while evaluating it. Your mileage may vary, especially if you know python and like using it. > If all else fails, use the source Luke! But that depends on how keen you are > to roll up your sleeves. I live for it, but learning another language? (sigh....) -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 16:54:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA15813; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15806 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id QAA04332; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:51:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:51:33 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200002090051.QAA04332@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: murr@vnet.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:08:37 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:08:37 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame Sending unsolicited faxes is illegal in the US under federal law. There is a fairly stiff penalty per incident (a few hundred bucks as I recall). Do a web search on "junk fax" is you want more info. Others have mentioned this so I should note taht I agreed to get the faxes; they were not unsolicited. They told me they would add me to the fax list when I signed up and I agreed. Same for the email list (though I'm not sure every member is aware of their options). What I didn't ask for was middle of the night faxes (because they use an auto sender and before I got DSL my fax line was busy all day) or 800k messages. As for the size of their emails and the choice of using the HTML format, I consider this rude, clueless and arrogant. Doesn't make good business sense to tick off your potential customers. I agree. If I felt like talking to them I'd suggest making a weekly specials website with all the pictures and text formating they want. Then send everyone on the list a text-only teaser with the URL. BTW: 800k for a single photograph is absurd. A 100k Jpeg will produce a large sharp photograph. They must have sent a bitmap file. It was a .jpg. I agree, 800k is ridiculous. I didn't look at it but I assume it was big because it was from a Photo-CD or something. Those come back huge (file and physical size both) because they are initial scans. Then you are supposed to edit them! Thank you everyone who has written. I'm feeling much better! Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 17:09:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA15927; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:48:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA15920 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mavery2.pernet.net [205.229.2.19]) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA38116 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:02:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.47); 8 Feb 00 19:04:13 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.47); 8 Feb 00 19:04:07 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:04:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Reply-to: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Message-ID: <38A068A4.12458.1037D9C@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 8 Feb 2000, at 14:52, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > At 3:33 PM -0600 2/8/2000, Mike Avery wrote: > > HTML BAD!!! > > Big messages BAD!! > > Sending that crap without asking permission first - VERY BAD!!! > One our of three isn't bad. HTML isn't bad. big messages aren't bad. > sending either without the person saying it's okay -- that's bad, > although even then, the answer is "it depends". True, it does depend. However, in genral purpose mailing lists HTML increases the size of the email by a factor apprpoaching 3. Some people don't like that. Also, many people have email clients that won't support html - people in companies with mini's or mainframes and dumb terminals, for example. The see the html code in it's raw state, and that's a pain. Worse, many of the programs that generate html based email do a very crufty job of it, and if you don't have the same email program, you might not be able to read the email. And your email client might lock up. All in all, unless you are sure your HTML will be welcome, you are better off not sending it. Sending large graphics, or any large file, without asking first is also rude. I get a lot of press releases, and there's not much that will hose my morning as badly as an 8 meg or so press release. It's rude to send large files without getting people's approval first. Nothing in Cyndi's (perhaps biased) note led me to believe that they had asked for permission. All in all, it seems pretty tacky to me. Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (voice) (409)-842-4352 (FAX) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day From 'The Code of The West, A Cowboy's Guide to Life' by Texas Bix Bender Don't get mad at somebody who knows more'n you do. It ain't their fault. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 8 21:23:07 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA18496; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA18489 for ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA33638 ; Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:39:22 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38A068A4.12458.1037D9C@localhost> References: <38A03763.22629.43116C@localhost> <38A068A4.12458.1037D9C@localhost> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:28:30 -0800 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:04 PM -0600 2/8/2000, Mike Avery wrote: > True, it does depend. However, in genral purpose mailing lists HTML > increases the size of the email by a factor apprpoaching 3. Some > people don't like that. Some won't like it, others are screaming for it. #1 on my hit parade, that's for sure. I'll bet if you survey your users, you'll probably be surprised at the answer. > Also, many people have email clients that > won't support html - people in companies with mini's or mainframes > and dumb terminals, for example. Rapidly hitting the same level as lynx browsers for HTTP. there's been a huge shift in the last six months here. Six months ago, I'd have probably agreed with you. today -- not nearly as true. > Worse, many of the programs that generate html based email do a > very crufty job of it, and if you don't have the same email program, > you might not be able to read the email. And your email client might > lock up. Bad engineering isn't a reason to not do it. It's a reason to do it right. > All in all, unless you are sure your HTML will be welcome, you are > better off not sending it. Comes down to knowing your audience. > Sending large graphics, or any large file, without asking first is also > rude. definitely agreed. IMHO, ship the HTML, and have them load graphics off of a server. That's what amazon and infobeat do, and it means if someone doesn't want to spare the bandwidth for graphics, they still have the choice. There's really no good reason to stuff multipart-mime with embedded graphics in it. Use a server. No, that's not quite true. Apple's iCards does exactly that -- because each iCard is generated uniquely and on the fly. But there's also a lot of work done to keep file size down because of that, but in THAT case, storing it on a server doesn't make much sense. But if you're doing customized stuff at that level, the rules tend to change. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 9 08:10:32 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA27352; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from online.no (pilt-e.online.no [148.122.208.24]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA27344 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from a2 (ti34a64-0336.dialup.online.no [130.67.76.80]) by online.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA13072 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:22:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200002091622.RAA13072@online.no> From: "Annie" Organization: Geocities To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:29:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: CGI-scripts Reply-to: nacelebs@online.no X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi guys, I've been looking at cgi-scripts that you can administer a mailing list with, right down to sending mail. I don't know if this is what you call MLM, or if it's such a bad solution you won't even talk about it ? We're talking about newsletters here, NOT discussion lists. Anyway, I have a twofold need. I need one program that will enable me to build several to many mailing list. This can be something as simple as subscribe (unsubscribe optional) on a webpage, and then a flat file I retrieve and use in my regular mailer. These lists will typically have less than 300 subscribers, and probably not more than 60. The other need is for one mailing list per domain, but this one will probably go into the thousands. The reason for using scripts is that I can bypass the advertisements of the free services. I have no idea how big these lists will become, but hopefully thousands, like I said. I've been looking at nomodomo for the multiple lists (not using the administration script), but don't know about the other one. I found a list of scripts at http://cgi.resourceindex.com/ One of my servers is a bit cranky, I can't seem to get every script to work. Either that or I'm missing something! I haven't tried these mailing list scripts yet, but quite a few other scripts - hit and miss! Regards Annie From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 14:57:12 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA21771; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:44:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from waltz.rahul.net (waltz.rahul.net [192.160.13.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA21764 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:43:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by waltz.rahul.net (Postfix, from userid 511) id CF71499E0D; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:59:47 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 100 14:59:47 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Message-Id: <20000210225947.CF71499E0D@waltz.rahul.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq wrote: > At 7:04 PM -0600 2/8/2000, Mike Avery wrote: > > Also, many people have email clients that > > won't support html - people in companies with mini's or mainframes > > and dumb terminals, for example. > > Rapidly hitting the same level as lynx browsers for HTTP. there's > been a huge shift in the last six months here. Six months ago, I'd > have probably agreed with you. today -- not nearly as true. I think there is also a shift towards people accessing the internet and their email from more than one platform, which increases the chance that one will want to read email with a non-html-enabled reader at some point in time. I myself read variously from a fully networked PC, a dial-up ppp linux box, telnet via AOL connection at family members house, one friend's house who only runs Windows 3.1 and doesn't want to install PPP-type software (so I dial in direct to the unix shell), and another friend with a new mac. Some are capable of html, some not, but to preserve access, I use MH from the unix shell to read mail. Certainly, though, there is a much larger proportion of new internet user now who only access the internet from one or two points and have the newest programs. I am seriously considering something like demime (should I be able to get it working) instead of doing what I do now (which is reject html postings and advise the poster to send plain text). That is indeed starting to become frequent enough that I want to change the way I handle such mail. Converting to text, rather than rejecting it would be much more graceful and useful to all. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 16:13:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA22587; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA22580 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [17.216.27.198] (A17-216-27-198.apple.com [17.216.27.198]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA46584 ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:21:35 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000210225947.CF71499E0D@waltz.rahul.net> References: <20000210225947.CF71499E0D@waltz.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:22:25 -0800 To: Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:59 PM -0800 2/10/2000, Michelle Dick wrote: > I am seriously considering something like demime > (should I be able to get it working) instead of doing what I do now > (which is reject html postings and advise the poster to send plain > text). I'm going to run user surveys and see what they want for my discussion lists. if the users are ready for HTML, I'll do it. if not, I'll go with demime as well. Too many users have no clue WHAT's coming out the back end of their mail clients, so telling them to turn it off is less and less useful and doesn't solve the problem, it merely starts the discussion. I give it 50-50 that the lists will choose to allow MIME/HTML based stuff, while not allowing attachments, embedded graphics, or anything that really blows up the size of a message. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 17:10:48 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA22951; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from waltz.rahul.net (waltz.rahul.net [192.160.13.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA22943 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by waltz.rahul.net (Postfix, from userid 511) id 210C999EA2; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:15:37 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 10 Feb 100 17:15:36 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Message-Id: <20000211011537.210C999EA2@waltz.rahul.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq wrote: > > I'm going to run user surveys and see what they want for my > discussion lists. if the users are ready for HTML, I'll do it. if > not, I'll go with demime as well. Too many users have no clue WHAT's > coming out the back end of their mail clients, so telling them to > turn it off is less and less useful and doesn't solve the problem, it > merely starts the discussion. True. Although in one case (involving a winmail.dat poster) the discussion resulted in pointers to a fix and much thanks from the poster since she had gotten complaints elsewhere about it as well. In my case, I'm not just interested in how many prefer html versus don't, my less harm/most good criterion takes more into account actual functionality than emotional preference. Having to expend a good deal of effort to read the html email is lack of actual functionality. Prefering html formatting in my very text-oriented list is just emotional preference for my list. For example, lets assume that 80% of the list actually does prefer html versus 20% prefering plain text. Not giving 80% their preference for html is better than, say, having 5% of the 20% of the non-html preferers not being able to use the list at all. The 80% can still use the list as they always have in a non-html list, while the 5% couldn't reasonably in an html-enabled list. So, by least harm, most good, a simple yes-no preference survey doesn't address the issue *for my list*. Especially since my list has been around over 7 years and many of the original subscribers are still around and contributing and more likely to be in that 5% rather than the new 80% which are internet newcomers with the latest tools. As it is, very small html posts do get through to my list as is (since I effectively filter out 95% of html based on size alone) and I'd guess about half result in one or more complaints to me asking why it got through and could I fix it. What would be nice, in addition to using a demime filter for email distribution, would be to save html versions of the messages for the list web archives. Seems a shame to throw away the part of the message that is most suitable for use in a web archive. It could be done, but would require more work to implement than I have to give at this point. On a related note, I made my list much more prominant on my website and noticed a huge increase in the number of unsuccessful confirmation attempts. More internet newcomers learned about the list (great!) but they weren't able to follow the email instructions (not good). I quickly added a simple cgi that would generate a proper confirmation email and included the url in each confirmation request. That solved that problem handily. I haven't gotten an unsuccessful subscribe yet and the cgi is used about 95% of the time now. The only downside is that among the new subscribers there is a much higher percentage of not quite as literate posters, resulting in more incoherent sentences, comments not on topic, etc. We've also had a number of new valuable posters as well. Gotta take the bad with the good, I guess. No one has complained to me about it, though, so maybe its not as bad as I think it is. Certainly the internet culture is changing rapidly and I'm struggling with how to continue to nurture the list-community in the most accessible, yet convenient to use ways, and without imposing on myself too much (very important). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 18:55:44 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA23974; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:44:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from benge.graphics.cornell.edu (benge.graphics.cornell.edu [128.84.247.43]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA23965 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from benge.graphics.cornell.edu (mkc@localhost) by benge.graphics.cornell.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA37007; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:00:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mkc@benge.graphics.cornell.edu) Message-Id: <200002110300.WAA37007@benge.graphics.cornell.edu> To: Michelle Dick cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-Reply-To: Message from Michelle Dick of "Thu, 10 Feb 0100 17:15:36 PST." <20000211011537.210C999EA2@waltz.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:00:12 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Certainly the internet culture is changing rapidly and I'm struggling >with how to continue to nurture the list-community in the most >accessible, yet convenient to use ways, and without imposing on myself >too much (very important). My solution was to stop reading my own lists. :-) -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 19:26:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA24365; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from gw.tssi.com (gw.tssi.com [198.147.197.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA24358 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from celery.tssi.com (nolan@celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by gw.tssi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA31781 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:31:46 -0600 Received: (from celery.tssi.com) by celery.tssi.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14558 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:31:44 -0600 From: Mike Nolan Message-Id: <200002110331.VAA14558@celery.tssi.com> Subject: Re: Oversized emails? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:31:43 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: nolan@tssi.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm going to run user surveys and see what they want for my > discussion lists. if the users are ready for HTML, I'll do it. if > not, I'll go with demime as well. Too many users have no clue WHAT's > coming out the back end of their mail clients, so telling them to > turn it off is less and less useful and doesn't solve the problem, it > merely starts the discussion. Chuq, it would not surprise me if some percentage of your subscribers think HTML is the virus that causes AIDS. The solution I would like is a subscription process which recognizes whether a new subscriber can handle HTML or not and sends HTML-based messages out in HTML or plaintext, accordingly. However, I'm not sure that current subscription protocols have the ability to do that level of discrimination yet. And that doesn't necessarily deal with users who read mail from multiple locations, though many of them are sophisticated enough that if a no-HTML subscription option was available they could choose for themselves. I'm almost to the point where I would like a web-based subscription form, with appropriate security measures to guard against automated mass attacks and e-mail confirmation, of course. And if I use cookies, I could then permit web-based users to post to my lists. Right now my web readers are read-only unless they subscribe via e-mail. (I don't think I would go to a web-only subscription form, but I could see that being the primary subscription vehicle.) -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 21:24:26 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25336; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:57:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA25328 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17332 ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:16:29 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20000211011537.210C999EA2@waltz.rahul.net> References: <20000211011537.210C999EA2@waltz.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:08:10 -0800 To: Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:15 PM -0800 2/10/2000, Michelle Dick wrote: > In my case, I'm not just interested in how many prefer html versus > don't, my less harm/most good criterion takes more into account actual > functionality than emotional preference. Heck if I can argue that. if that's what you feel is best for your list, I'm all for it. > Especially > since my list has been around over 7 years and many of the original > subscribers are still around and contributing and more likely to be in > that 5% rather than the new 80% which are internet newcomers with the > latest tools. you might check that first because the results might surprise you. Or amybe not... > On a related note, I made my list much more prominant on my website > and noticed a huge increase in the number of unsuccessful confirmation > attempts. More internet newcomers learned about the list (great!) but > they weren't able to follow the email instructions (not good). Which is why, for some lists, confirmations got disabled -- yes, there are some problems with a non-confirmed list, but not as many as caused BY the confirmation. So least-harm wins again -- although I do hope, like Michelle, to move back to some really easy confirmation system again and get the best of both worlds. > Certainly the internet culture is changing rapidly and I'm struggling > with how to continue to nurture the list-community in the most > accessible, yet convenient to use ways, and without imposing on myself > too much (very important). Yeah. I'm on about my fifth round of "stuff I wrote that was perfectly good for my users a year ago needs to be fixed and improved". Not because the users are getting stupid, but because they're getting more naive about how this stuff operates, and to a good degree, simply don't CARE how they operate, and shouldn't have to. That's my job.... -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 21:27:59 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA25361; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:59:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.vjs.org (cc50165-b.hwrd1.md.home.com [24.9.159.241]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA25354 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:59:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (192.168.1.5) by mail.vjs.org with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:15:12 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35517.950054431@monkeys.com> References: <35517.950054431@monkeys.com> X-Organization: Little to None X-Mailer: Eudora 5.0 for Cray T3E-1200 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:15:10 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Vince Sabio Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Cc: abuse@get.topica.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ** Sometime around 16:00 -0800 02/08/2000, Ronald F. Guilmette sent us: >Awhile ago, I posted here some info explaining why egroups/onelist got >their e-mail blacklisted for this domain. > >Just to show that I don't play favorites, As if we care ... >I've also now blacklisted >TOPICA.COM here on the basis of the abusive OPT-OUT spam message >included below, Yawn. >Osama, the owner of the mailing list 'Taha', >has added you to this list at Topica. This is endemic of mailing lists and list owners, Ron, and has nothing to do with Topica, per se. Osama could be running a mailing list on a LISTSERV or a Majordomo somewhere, and decide to add you to his/her mailing list -- and you wouldn't necessarily even receive notification of that fact (until you received mail from the list). [1] Topica needs to provide a means for list owners to make *legitimate* additions to their mailing lists -- and, what do you know, but such a mechanism can be abused by Bad Bad People. Shocker of the century, Ron. As I said, *yawn*. It isn't the first time that a legitimate mechanism has been abused, it won't be the last time, and quite frankly I'm much more concerned about ORBS routinely spamming my mail server than I am about some dink at Topica abusing the subscriber-add feature. Career suggestion: Don't go into investigative reporting, Ron. You're boring. [1] Hmmmm, maybe we should ban ALL sites that run list servers, because they can be abused by Bad People. Or maybe we should simply write to the SERVER ADMINISTRATORS at those sites to tell them that their list owner(s) are abusing the services. Huh, yeah, there's an idea. Hey, waddyaknow, Topica has an abuse address! Maybe we could simply write to Topica's abuse address to tell them that one of their list owners is abusing the service. Nah, no sense in doing that -- Topica is a Big Bad Internet Business, so maybe we should go for the knee-jerk reaction and simply ban the site, instead. Yeah, that's the ticket. __________________________________________________________________________ Vince Sabio Got Bounces? vince-lists@vjs.org Got Jokes? Got Spam? From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 21:54:23 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25672; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id VAA25665 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29966 invoked by uid 100); 11 Feb 2000 00:37:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:37:19 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: nolan@tssi.com cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Oversized emails? In-Reply-To: <200002110331.VAA14558@celery.tssi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The solution I would like is a subscription process which recognizes > whether a new subscriber can handle HTML or not and sends HTML-based > messages out in HTML or plaintext, accordingly. However, I'm not sure that > current subscription protocols have the ability to do that level of > discrimination yet. Seems simple enough. Send a confirmation message in multipart/crud, er, multipart/alternative format with one confirmation URL in the text part and a different one in the HTML part, with mailback instructions in the part above the first MIME. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 21:56:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA25495; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA25478 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:06:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20170 ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:25:08 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200002110331.VAA14558@celery.tssi.com> References: <200002110331.VAA14558@celery.tssi.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:22:20 -0800 To: nolan@tssi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Oversized emails? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:31 PM -0600 2/10/2000, Mike Nolan wrote: > Chuq, it would not surprise me if some percentage of your subscribers > think HTML is the virus that causes AIDS. I think I understand your sentiment here (and if not, we'll pretend I do and not get into it...), but we've found, for whatever it's worth, that the more naive the user, the more you can guarantee they're using an HTML capable mail reader, even if they don't realize it. Newer users don't often get hooked up to lynx and mailx. > The solution I would like is a subscription process which recognizes > whether a new subscriber can handle HTML or not and sends HTML-based > messages out in HTML or plaintext, accordingly. However, I'm not sure that > current subscription protocols have the ability to do that level of > discrimination yet. Funny you should mention that. You're right, you really can't tell. You can't even assume that the mail client someone uses to subscribe is the one they'll use to read mail, even if the mail client identifies itself in the mail header. Not with all of the forwarding systems out there, and if your lists are like mine, 10-15% of your list forwards to someone through hotmail, and up to 20% of your list goes through SOME forwarding/webmail system, whether it's hotmail, bigfoot, yahoo, or name your favorite. I'd love to do this. I have people who'd really, really love to have it. Someday, I'll figure out a way, at least for some class of users. But -- it's actually fairly easy to fix this, especially with VERP technology. Simply sign someone up to HTML, ship out the HTML in a MIME part, and in the message outside of the MIME area, put a "if you see this message, then your mail client doesn't support HTML" warning, and with VERPing, you can even include an encoded URL they can use to tweak your database with a single click. I wish I could say I thought this up, but Infobeat does most of this, and I think it's a neat way to handle it -- especially if you add in the fix-me URL with user encoding in it. that, IMHO, removes almost all of the issue with whether to set people up with HTML or not, because they can easily switch back if we break something. now, for discussion lists like Michelle's or the ones I run, it's still an issue, but if you really wanted, you could run parallel lists, one HTML, the other textonly and run through demime, and simply make sure stuff gets posted to both. In fact, now that I think about it, maybe when I make the move to Sympa I'll do just that. > And that doesn't necessarily deal with users who read > mail from multiple locations, Which is a very large number. > though many of them are sophisticated enough > that if a no-HTML subscription option was available they could choose > for themselves. Given how endemic hotmail is, and how widely it's used by the techno-naive, that's not a safe assumption. Trust me on that. > I'm almost to the point where I would like a web-based subscription >form, with > appropriate security measures to guard against automated mass attacks and > e-mail confirmation, of course. Funny, I'm not convinced the "of course" is a given. email confirmations aren't a panacea. The busier the list, the more necessary they are, but you have to be careful you aren't just moving the problem to soe other place. > And if I use cookies, I could then > permit web-based users to post to my lists. you know,there's a nice idea in there. > Right now my web readers are > read-only unless they subscribe via e-mail. that's one reason I moved my web archives to web crossing. The downside is that it uses it's own validation setup. The good news is that it allows for external and LDAP authentification, so I can (someday) write my own subscription/membership module and export mailing list data and web authentifications out to everything from a single source. Which'd be really cool. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 23:34:33 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26632; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:15:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26625 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA48127 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:31:33 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:15:10 -0500. Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:31:33 -0800 Message-ID: <48125.950254293@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Vince Sabio wrote: >** Sometime around 16:00 -0800 02/08/2000, Ronald F. Guilmette sent us: >This is endemic of mailing lists and list owners, Ron, and has >nothing to do with Topica, per se. That's bull. >Osama could be running a mailing >list on a LISTSERV or a Majordomo somewhere, and decide to add you to >his/her mailing list OK smart ass. Simple question: If the spammer COULD HAVE just used his own majordomo, then why didn't he? Why did he go to all of the trouble to have Topica do his spamming for him? Maybe when you manage to puzzle that out, you will figure out why I have blacklisted Topica locally. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 10 23:50:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA26691; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA26684 for ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.197] ([17.254.136.14]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA23816 ; Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:43:25 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <35517.950054431@monkeys.com> Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:41:17 -0800 To: Vince Sabio , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Cc: abuse@get.topica.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:15 AM -0500 2/11/2000, Vince Sabio wrote: abused, it won't be the last time, and quite frankly I'm much more concerned about ORBS routinely spamming my mail server Have you considered putting ORBS in your blocking files? I'm redoing stuff to use tcpwrappers, and I'll probably block their stuff at that level once I'm done. I wonder if that'll qualify me for their database or something, since I won't let them whack at my servers without my permission any more. Horrors, that. Of course, from my experience, the number of sites that actually connect to ORBS is so tiny, I don't even pay attention to it any more. -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 04:26:32 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA02309; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:17:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bangkok.digi-net.com ([63.75.34.110]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id EAA02302 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 04:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [199.78.178.88] (unverified [199.78.178.88]) by bangkok.digi-net.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 3.4.6) with SMTP id for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 07:28:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 00 07:33:10 -0500 x-sender: tanny@63.75.34.110 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: tanny To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >[1] Topica needs to provide a means for list owners to make >*legitimate* additions to their mailing lists -- >[1] Topica needs to provide a means for list owners to make >*legitimate* additions to their mailing lists -- Hmm, this is admittedly a tricky issue, and there is no sent from God absolute right solution for every circumstance. That said, I'd have to say that it's my belief that giving large groups of users the unsupervised ability to bulk add addresses to their lists is begging for just the kind of reputation crushing controversy we are seeing develop here. Vince is an experienced responsible Internet citizen and all round good guy so if he was hosted on my server I'd have no trouble accepting his definition of *legitimate* additions. That said, Vince you gotta admit there are as many different definitions of "legitimate additions" out there as there are list owners. I know the folks at Topica and they aren't spammers, they are simply trying to be helpful to legitimate list owners by offering the unsupervised bulk add feature. The problem with these good intentions is that they will certainly be abused and thus the reputations of all the truly legitimate list owners at Topica will be adversely affected. The thread that is developing here, regardless of its exact merits, is evidence enough of that. Phil From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 08:10:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA04508; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:03:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.visi.com (baal.visi.com [209.98.98.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA04501 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from infinia (clift.dsl.visi.com [209.98.142.42]) by mail.visi.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) with SMTP id KAA22094; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:39 -0600 (CST) Posted-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:39 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200002111618.KAA22094@mail.visi.com> From: "Steven Clift" Organization: http://www.e-democracy.org/do To: list-moderators@list-moderators.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:15:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Filtering Advice for Subscribers Reply-to: slc@publicus.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I became aware of the following site: http://www.positivespace.com/new/business/filter.htm They give advice on how to filter your e-mail in: America Online Eudora (Light or Pro v3.1) Hotmail Microsoft Outlook 98 Microsoft Outlook Express Netscape Yahoo Mail Does anyone know of a generic similar resource or advice in text on how to filter in these and other programs (like Pegasus mail, Lotus Notes, ccMail, PINE)? Steven Clift - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Steven Clift - E: clift@publicus.net T:+1.612.822.8667 Info - http://publicus.net DO - http://e-democracy.org/do Web White & Blue - http://webwhiteblue.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 10:10:50 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA05677; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:53:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA05670 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from laptop (ip12.proper.com [165.227.249.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18931 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:06:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.1.20000211100625.00c00a70@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.1 Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:10:22 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-Reply-To: References: <35517.950054431@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:41 PM 2/10/00 -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >Have you considered putting ORBS in your blocking files? I'm redoing stuff >to use tcpwrappers, and I'll probably block their stuff at that level once >I'm done. I wonder if that'll qualify me for their database or something, Most likely, yes. AboveNet blackholed ORBS for some of their customers, and ORBS has blackholed all of AboveNet. Of course, they don't say that on the site; why should they explain the rules to everyone? See for details. > since I won't let them whack at my servers without my permission any > more. Horrors, that. Of course, from my experience, the number of sites > that actually connect to ORBS is so tiny, I don't even pay attention to > it any more. Because we are colocated at AboveNet, we had some problems with users to our mailing lists bouncing everything. It turns out "some" was "virtually none", like maybe two companies out of the tens of thousands we have on our lists. When I realized this, I had a good chuckle. Oh, and after you've been blackholed by them, don't bother sending them mail. They use their own list to blackhole and expect you to get a Hotmail account in order to talk to them. Great planning, that... --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 11:25:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA06751; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:20:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA06739 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mercury.mcs.net (dattier@Mercury.mcs.net [192.160.127.80]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA39535 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:55 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dattier@mcs.net) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mercury.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id NAA91871 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200002111935.NAA91871@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:55 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <48125.950254293@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at Feb 10, 2000 11:31:33 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Warning: The true sender is dattier@Mercury.mcs.net. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ron Guilmette asked Vince Sabio, | Simple question: If the spammer COULD HAVE just used his | own majordomo, then why didn't he? Why did he go to all of the trouble | to have Topica do his spamming for him? Because for many it is less trouble to set up a list at a big public listhost than to get an OS that runs list server software, get list server software, and do all the low-level administrative type things that a big listhost has already automated for its users. If they can get their spam out hit-and-run before the listhost's abuse department closes the list down, that's good enough. Maybe they could have set up Majordomo or another list management package, but it was much easier to turn the keys and press the buttons on a public listhost. Another possibility -- not having the mind of a spammer [such as it is] I can only guess how such jerks think -- is that a spammer can set up an account with false personal information on a free ISP, create a list on a publicly accessible listhost, and hit and run; whereas running a list man- agement package on its own machine would give away its IP address and leave it vulnerable to (well-deserved, granted) sanctions. But every time it's been suggested that Onelist or eGroups drop the function to add people to lists without their needing to confirm, other listowners get up in arms that there are some very important members of their lists who never could have managed to join if they had had to confirm, for whom it is too daunting to have to use the Reply and Send functions of their mail cli- ents to answer a confirmation request, yet without whom the list cannot prop- erly serve its purpose. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 14:40:10 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA08898; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA08885 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA50702; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:07:30 -0800 (PST) To: "David W. Tamkin" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:55 -0600. <200002111935.NAA91871@Mercury.mcs.net> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:07:30 -0800 Message-ID: <50700.950306850@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <200002111935.NAA91871@Mercury.mcs.net>, you wrote: >Ron Guilmette asked Vince Sabio, > >| Simple question: If the spammer COULD HAVE just used his >| own majordomo, then why didn't he? Why did he go to all of the trouble >| to have Topica do his spamming for him? > >Because for many it is less trouble to set up a list at a big public listhost >than to get an OS that runs list server software, get list server software, >and do all the low-level administrative type things that a big listhost has >already automated for its users. If they can get their spam out hit-and-run >before the listhost's abuse department closes the list down, that's good >enough. Maybe they could have set up Majordomo or another list management >package, but it was much easier to turn the keys and press the buttons on a >public listhost. Yes. And that was exactly my point. TOPICA is making life easy for spammers. >But every time it's been suggested that Onelist or eGroups drop the function >to add people to lists without their needing to confirm, other listowners >get up in arms that there are some very important members of their lists who >never could have managed to join if they had had to confirm, for whom it is >too daunting to have to use the Reply and Send functions of their mail cli- >ents to answer a confirmation request, yet without whom the list cannot prop- >erly serve its purpose. And that, of course, is pure horse pucky. Any six-year old kid of average intelligence can figure out (or be taught) how to relay to an e-mail message. If this (using e-mail) was rocket science, then millions of ordinary people wouldn't be doing it. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 15:39:48 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA09471; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from hen.scotland.net (phys-hen2.scotland.net [194.247.65.128]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA09464 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:29:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [148.176.237.89] (helo=becky) by hen.scotland.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 12JPif-0004g2-00 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:43:26 +0000 Message-ID: <03d901bf74e9$a5d70f40$ceedb094@becky> From: "becky vacara" To: References: Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:42:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I know the folks at Topica and they aren't spammers, they are > simply trying to be helpful to legitimate list owners by offering > the unsupervised bulk add feature. The problem with these good > intentions is that they will certainly be abused and thus the > reputations of all the truly legitimate list owners at Topica > will be adversely affected. Granted that everyone who works for Topica is not the head of the company, nor do they have any say in decisions. However those that do certainly have shown that there way of doing business is to step on the little people. How many list has Topica bought? There policy when buying out these companies is that the server they are buying from must not give notice to it's list-owners until the last minute. Thousands of list-owners had their list taken hostage by Topica and their lives turned upside-down. How is this good business? Do you realise that there are many people who have wanted to sue Topica in the last couple months? Becky (One of those thousands left homeless by Topica) From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 16:24:33 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA09973; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from waltz.rahul.net (waltz.rahul.net [192.160.13.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id QAA09966 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by waltz.rahul.net (Postfix, from userid 511) id 0F3C699E2D; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:34:26 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-reply-to: <50700.950306850@monkeys.com> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 100 16:34:25 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Message-Id: <20000212003426.0F3C699E2D@waltz.rahul.net> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ronald wrote: > > Any six-year old kid of average intelligence can figure out (or be taught) > how to relay to an e-mail message. Whether or not it is "easy" enough to reply by email to a confirmation request is now a moot question. This is because the same folks who have trouble composing and sending a proper email confirmation reply generally now have html-enabled mail readers. All that need to be done to request a confirm is to include something like: Click here to activiate subscription in the list's email response to the subscription request. The confirm cgi url should contain all the info needed to process the confirmation (cookies, etc) so the prospective list member need make one click to confirm, no filling out forms, no nothing other than one click. If they can't even READ the email -- then there really IS no reason to have them on the mailing list in the first place. "One Click Confirmation" No excuses anymore. Even I, a non-programmer, was able to write a cgi that would generate a proper confirm email and get it to the right place. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 11 17:55:10 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA10608; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from raven.a001.sprintmail.com (raven.prod.itd.earthlink.net [209.178.63.9]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA10601 for ; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:39:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from earthlink (sdn-ar-006waseatP225.dialsprint.net [168.191.237.241]) by raven.a001.sprintmail.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09437; Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:55:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <004501bf74fc$46d359a0$0100a8c0@earthlink> Reply-To: "Chris McEwen" From: "Chris McEwen" To: "David W. Tamkin" , References: <200002111935.NAA91871@Mercury.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 17:55:43 -0800 Organization: Socrates Press, Keyport WA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The fact that anyone can create a Topica mail list, import a few thousand names, spam the snot out of the world and disappear is reason enough for Topica to restrict the function to import names. There is no reason to delete this function, just limit it to a certain number of names per hour, day or whatever. No spammer worth his salt is going to bother with a system that restricts the names he can add to his hit-list to a few dozen a day. Few legitimate list owners will need to add more than this except on a special basis. And they can deal with customer service on such occassions. -- Chris McEwen ----- Original Message ----- From: David W. Tamkin But every time it's been suggested that Onelist or eGroups drop the function to add people to lists without their needing to confirm, other listowners get up in arms that there are some very important members of their lists who never could have managed to join if they had had to confirm, for whom it is too daunting to have to use the Reply and Send functions of their mail cli- ents to answer a confirmation request, yet without whom the list cannot prop- erly serve its purpose. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 12 05:57:08 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA19374; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 05:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA19367 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 05:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (user: 'potter', uid#5005) by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:05:07 -0400 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:05:06 -0400 (AST) From: "David L. Potter" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <200002120900.BAA13994@honor.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:35:55 -0600 (CST) > From: "David W. Tamkin" > Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM > > Ron Guilmette asked Vince Sabio, > > > But every time it's been suggested that Onelist or eGroups drop the function > to add people to lists without their needing to confirm, other listowners > get up in arms that there are some very important members of their lists who > never could have managed to join if they had had to confirm, for whom it is > too daunting to have to use the Reply and Send functions of their mail cli- > ents to answer a confirmation request, yet without whom the list cannot prop- > erly serve its purpose. > > ------------------------------ Spammers would almost always be someone wanting to set up a large list bulk subscribe and use it immediately. Listowner/subscriber convenience and spam prevention could be accomodated by simply having a max number of un-confirmed subscriptions per day, and/or a waiting period of x days before a list-owner could start bulk subscribing... AND.. all of these could be waived for known list-owners, i.e. those who have had other lists operating for several months, etc... And the argumet that some people couldn't handle the confirm process certainly wouldn't apply to large percentages of list subscribers. --- Another possibility is to apply a 'real' spam filter to mail addressed _to_ a new /istowner/list list for the first 90 days... that would cure most of the spam problems right there. david potter From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 12 15:26:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA24022; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:11:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from karat.cip.informatik.uni-muenchen.de (karat.cip.informatik.uni-muenchen.de [141.84.220.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA23964 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 15:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (zimmerma@localhost) by karat.cip.informatik.uni-muenchen.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08402 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:20:26 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: karat.cip.informatik.uni-muenchen.de: zimmerma owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:20:26 +0100 (MET) From: Alexander Zimmermann Reply-To: Alexander Zimmermann To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: New majordomo version Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi folks, just wanted to ask how many of you have done the upgrade to Majordomo 1.94.5 and if any of you had any problems with it? I don't expect much trouble, but my listserver has grown big over the years and I just want to know if I should test the new version before activating it. Alex -- Alexander Zimmermann http://www.informatik.uni-muenchen.de/~_zimmerma/ From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 12 18:11:04 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA25341; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id SAA25334 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from tpad.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 34A59350B9 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 21:19:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20000212172749.0357e350@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 17:27:49 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-Reply-To: <200002111935.NAA91871@Mercury.mcs.net> References: <48125.950254293@monkeys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:35 PM 2/11/00 -0600, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Ron Guilmette asked Vince Sabio, >But every time it's been suggested that Onelist or eGroups drop the function >to add people to lists without their needing to confirm, other listowners >get up in arms that there are some very important members of their lists who >never could have managed to join if they had had to confirm, for whom it is >too daunting to have to use the Reply and Send functions of their mail cli- >ents to answer a confirmation request, yet without whom the list cannot prop- >erly serve its purpose. There is also the issue of moving an extant list - if you claim the list is pre-existing and that you are moving it, you would be expecting to add a large number of subscribers just as soon as you crank up. It is also likely that you would not be expecting to force each subscriber to re-confirm. -- That which does not kill us, makes us stronger. That which does kill us makes us smell stronger, after a few days, anyway. Nick Simicich mailto:njs@scifi.squawk.com http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html -- Stop by and Light Up The World! From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 12 20:26:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA26489; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:20:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id UAA26480 for ; Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5950 invoked by uid 100); 12 Feb 2000 23:36:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:36:28 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: Nick Simicich cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000212172749.0357e350@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There is also the issue of moving an extant list - if you claim the list is > pre-existing and that you are moving it, you would be expecting to add a > large number of subscribers just as soon as you crank up. It is also > likely that you would not be expecting to force each subscriber to > re-confirm. This doesn't impress me as an intractable problem. When someone wants to move a list, accept the list, pick out some moderate number of addresses at random, say 50, and send each of them a message like "You're receiving this message because you're on the EPIGLOTTIS-LOVERS mailing list that has recently been moved to OffTopica.com, and we're spot checking the contents of the list. If you are a member of the list and wish to continue to be on the list click HERE, if you are a member but no longer wish to be on the list click HERE, or if you are not a member of the list click HERE." If you get back a significant number of "not on the list" responses, you know it's dodgy. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 13 00:47:28 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA28322; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id AAA28315 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA58565; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:43:56 -0800 (PST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: dru@redwoodsoft.com, dru@egroups.net Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:36:28 -0500. Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 00:43:56 -0800 Message-ID: <58563.950431436@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , John R Levine wrote: >> There is also the issue of moving an extant list - if you claim the list is >> pre-existing and that you are moving it, you would be expecting to add a >> large number of subscribers just as soon as you crank up. It is also >> likely that you would not be expecting to force each subscriber to >> re-confirm. > >This doesn't impress me as an intractable problem. When someone wants to >move a list, accept the list, pick out some moderate number of addresses at >random, say 50, and send each of them a message like "You're receiving this >message because you're on the EPIGLOTTIS-LOVERS mailing list that has >recently been moved to OffTopica.com, and we're spot checking the contents of >the list. If you are a member of the list and wish to continue to be on the >list click HERE, if you are a member but no longer wish to be on the list >click HERE, or if you are not a member of the list click HERE." > >If you get back a significant number of "not on the list" responses, you >know it's dodgy. Yep. This is _exactly_ what I proposed to the folks at egoups/onelist. No word yet if they have implemented it or not. Unfortunately, my general impression is that with a lot of companies in that are in the Internet game these days, unless an idea can be translated directly into an obvious increase in bottom-line dollars, they will refuse to take the time to do it. What that means is that in the case of these ``professional'' (and I use the word loosely) list management companies, they are effectively declaring the problem of spammers who abuse them and get them to do their spamming for them to be sombody else's problem. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 13 12:38:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06824; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from Kitten.mcs.net (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA06817 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:27:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from Mars.mcs.net (dattier@Mars.mcs.net [192.160.127.85]) by Kitten.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA81231 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:44:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dattier@mcs.net) Received: (from dattier@localhost) by Mars.mcs.net (8.9.3/8.8.2) id OAA86189 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:44:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200002132044.OAA86189@Mars.mcs.net> Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:44:15 -0600 (CST) From: "David W. Tamkin" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <58563.950431436@monkeys.com> from "Ronald F. Guilmette" at Feb 13, 2000 12:43:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Authentication-Warning: The true sender is dattier@Mars.mcs.net. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ron continued, | This is _exactly_ what I proposed to the folks at egoups/onelist. | | No word yet if they have implemented it or not. I don't know about Topica, nor really about the current egroups.com setup, but the onelist.com branch of eGroups has a limit of ten addresses that can be added without confirmation at a time; any more, say, to move an existing list, have to be cleared with and handled by staff. As Chris McEwen and David Potter have said, that would help stymie spammers, who are not in- terested in entering their victims' addresses ten at a time. I've more to say in reply to posts on this thread, but my time this week is unwontedly constrained, so I'll get back to it in a couple days. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 13 12:53:18 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA06851; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id MAA06844 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:34:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 7140 invoked by uid 100); 13 Feb 2000 15:50:55 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 15:50:55 -0500 (EST) From: John R Levine To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: moving lists, was Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM In-Reply-To: <58563.950431436@monkeys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Yep. > This is _exactly_ what I proposed to the folks at egoups/onelist. > No word yet if they have implemented it or not. Hey, look what I just got from ListBot: |Date: 13 Feb 2000 18:36:02 -0000 ||Message-ID: <950466962.20588.qmail@ech> |Mailing-List: ListBot mailing list contact center.right-help@listbot.com |From: |To: ListBot Member |Subject: You have been added to | |The owner of this list has moved it to ListBot. If you don't think |you should be on this list, please send a message to | |f-2DA401D9F8A5E095@listbot.com | |The list owner has included the following welcome message: | |We are switching to ListBot for the Center Right newsletter. This |message is simply part of the process. | |______________________________________________________________________ |To unsubscribe, write to center.right-unsubscribe@listbot.com Microsoft may be evil, but they do have the occasional clue. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 14 07:08:44 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19954; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:55:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA19942 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 06:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mavery2.pernet.net [205.229.2.19]) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA50519 for ; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:09:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.47); 14 Feb 00 09:11:24 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.47); 14 Feb 00 09:11:13 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:11:07 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Blacklisted: TOPICA.COM Reply-to: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Message-ID: <38A7C6B5.20463.8F31043@localhost> References: <3.0.5.32.20000212172749.0357e350@127.0.0.1> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12 Feb 2000, at 23:36, John R Levine wrote: > > There is also the issue of moving an extant list - if you claim the > > list is pre-existing and that you are moving it, you would be > > expecting to add a large number of subscribers just as soon as you > > crank up. It is also likely that you would not be expecting to > > force each subscriber to re-confirm. > This doesn't impress me as an intractable problem. When someone wants > to move a list, accept the list, pick out some moderate number of > addresses at random, say 50, and send each of them a message like > "You're receiving this message because you're on the EPIGLOTTIS-LOVERS > mailing list that has recently been moved to OffTopica.com, and we're > spot checking the contents of the list. If you are a member of the > list and wish to continue to be on the list click HERE, if you are a > member but no longer wish to be on the list click HERE, or if you are > not a member of the list click HERE." > If you get back a significant number of "not on the list" responses, > you know it's dodgy. Ya know, I wonder if it's that simple. I took over a moderated humor list for a friend while she was on vacation. I host her list, and as with all lists I host, EVERY message has instructions on how to unsubscribe. Further, unlike me, when someone sends her a note asking to be unsubscribed, she honors the request. (I send them a form letter telling them how to unsubscribe. I refuse to manually add or remove people unless they can tell me why they can't do it themselves. I'm not trying to make money on the lists, but I do want to cut my losses, and dealing with people who can't - or won't - read the instructions is more than I want to deal with.) Shortly after I started sending jokes to her list, I got several tear jerking letters about how "I've been trying to unsubscribe for two years, and I can't do it! PLEASE HELP ME!!!" One person swore they had never subscribed. (Note.... the list server I use only subscribes the senders address. While it doesn't confirm subscriptions {the next version will do that}, you can't subscribe someone else, unless you can forge their address.) Another humor list I co-moderate had someone send a "Please unsubscribe me" note to the list. As per our policy, I dropped her instantly. (Yes, it is irrational, but if you send me an unsubscribe request, you get a form letter. If you send it to the list, I drop you instantly. The difference is the number of people each annoy.) And got back a note about how she felt her prayers had been answered. She'd been putting up with bad jokes for 18 months, and despite endless attempts to "unsuscrib", she was still on the list. How many people are there on your list who aren't quite sure how they got there, why they get all that mail, or how to get off the list? I wonder.... how many lists could really pass the 50 subscriber test. Mike -- Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (voice) (409)-842-4352 (FAX) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Tried to play my shoehorn... all I got was footnotes! From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 14 17:32:47 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA28060; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA28052 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA09847 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 17:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from SOUTINE2K (adsl-151-202-20-126.bellatlantic.net [151.202.20.126]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA09104 for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:26:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Tom Neff" To: Subject: Escribe gone missing? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:26:30 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200002130900.BAA28728@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone noticed that http://www.escribe.com now returns a page for somebody's family picnic? Wassup wid dat? From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 14 17:47:35 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA27784; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:42:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id QAA27774 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 14 Feb 2000 16:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from gsp.org (rsk.tidalwave.com [208.211.3.21]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA28488 for ; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 09:37:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by gsp.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA12386 for list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:53:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:53:57 -0500 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Anyone else seeing probes from inco.com.lb? M