From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 11:06:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA14637; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgmail.morino.org (mgmail.morino.org [63.84.48.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFEF17E8B for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from marnowitz (63.84.48.159 [63.84.48.159]) by mgmail.morino.org with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id DTW81PX5; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Mitch Arnowitz" To: Subject: Adding weekly digest to e-mail list Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:02:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000701c08edd$1709aac0$140110ac@morino.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200101300900.BAA11339@honor.greatcircle.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all-- I am considering adding a weekly digest to my list. Does anyone have an example or pointer of a weekly digest for an unmoderated e-mail list? A moderated list weekly digest pointer is also appreciated. Thanks! Mitch _______________________________________ Mitch Arnowitz mailto:mitch@netpreneur.org Morino Institute Netpreneur 11600 Sunrise Valley Dr., Reston, VA 20191 (o) 703.648.3923 | (f) 703.648.3939 www.morino.org | www.netpreneur.org "An entrepreneurial venture of the Morino Institute" _______________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 12:06:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA15045; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mgmail.morino.org (mgmail.morino.org [63.84.48.135]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCCF17E8B for ; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:56:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from marnowitz (63.84.48.159 [63.84.48.159]) by mgmail.morino.org with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id DTW81PZP; Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:52:54 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Mitch Arnowitz" To: Subject: REVISED: Adding weekly SUMMARY to e-mail list Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 14:56:07 -0500 Message-ID: <000e01c08ee4$837451e0$140110ac@morino.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am considering adding a weekly summary to my list. Does anyone have an example or pointer of a weekly summary for an unmoderated e-mail list? A moderated list weekly summary pointer is also appreciated. Thanks! Mitch _______________________________________ Mitch Arnowitz mailto:mitch@netpreneur.org Morino Institute Netpreneur 11600 Sunrise Valley Dr., Reston, VA 20191 (o) 703.648.3923 | (f) 703.648.3939 www.morino.org | www.netpreneur.org "An entrepreneurial venture of the Morino Institute" _______________________________________ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 06:16:01 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA01720; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974AE17EAE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:56:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A37665770446; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:53:58 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:56:51 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey, I joined this list around 6 years ago and found it a wealth of information regarding list management. I left for a time. I won't get into why, but now I'm back and have been for several months. Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think this place would be pretty busy. Amy From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 08:48:04 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA03150; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:25:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9784D17EAE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:25:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14QXPH-0007PJ-00; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:25:23 -0800 To: amys@amys-answers.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from "Amy Stinson" of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:56:51 EST." <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:25:23 -0800 Message-ID: <28474.981563123@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:56:51 -0500 Amy Stinson wrote: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. While I can't comment on past traffic, the apparancy from here is that while there are more lists and list moderators, yes, at the sme time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 11:02:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA04495; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ppnne.com (unknown [206.156.153.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8EB617EC1 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:49 -0500 Message-ID: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> From: Sarah Standiford To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: RE: What happened? Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:27:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." Good point. And I think that pretty much goes for every d---n thing in the US these days. However as someone who is not very skilled in list management--but who is doing it out of necessity (and a basic distrust of 'egroups' et al)-- one thing that would be helpful on this list would be to remember that not everyone understands the jargon....so simplify where possible to encourage a broader number of conversationists. thanks Sarah From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 15:32:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA07471; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9831E17EBE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A4D81C2A0428; Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:06:00 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:08:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A818F36.19382.2AA908@localhost> In-reply-to: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 2001, at 13:27, Sarah Standiford wrote: > However as someone who is not very skilled in list > management--but who is doing it out of necessity (and a basic distrust of > 'egroups' et al)-- one thing that would be helpful on this list would be to > remember that not everyone understands the jargon....so simplify where > possible to encourage a broader number of conversationists. A couple of questions: Why do you have a basic mistrust of egroups (now yahoo) and what jargon would you like to understand? Amy http://www.listhost.com/archives/machknit.html http://www.machine-knit.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 18:02:33 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA08946; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D8DF117EBE for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa02822 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 07 Feb 01 17:20:36 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: What happened? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Wed, 07 Feb 01 17:17:45 PST In-Reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson writes: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. There are hundreds of thousands of lists, but the huge majority are run by corporations like eGroups, where for the "listowner" it's like playing captain aboard a Disneyland pirate ship. I think while you were gone, all the possible problems for the rest of us were solved finally and utterly right here. You shoulda been here. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 19:17:35 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA09656; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A35617EC4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:53:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f182rlA11797 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA24778 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:46 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: RE: What happened? In-Reply-To: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Sarah Standiford wrote: > --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators > has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the > awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." > > Good point. And I think that pretty much goes for every d---n > thing in the US these days. Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. - murr - From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 21:46:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA11468; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:34:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90FA17EC4 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:34:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f185T7j31474; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:29:07 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think > this place would be pretty busy. It's dead for lots of reasons. Here's my take on things... First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's very little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any attempt to make the list known to the outside world -- so while there are zillions of new lists and list managers out there, why should they know of the existance of the list and why should they come here instead of other resources that ARE attempting to attract their attention? Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear about it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already know the list come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew up, and the list just hung out in an eddy and got left behind. Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good number of people come around this place to ask for help and get variations of the "what a stupid question, why are you wasting our time?" response. A great introduction to new users looking for places that are resources as they learn this stuff. Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what certain members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything they consider inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into oblivion, which makes it very hard to discuss emerging issues and practices, unless they happen to match their view of how stuff ought to be run. This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be greeted with silence or a rude attack as actually have their questions answered. There's no fresh blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of either. So it's the same 12 old pharts (myself included) who occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap to re-enact last Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't bother any more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't need to actually have the argument any more... On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only > fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need > clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the valley to know to come up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down into the valley in so long the villages don't even hear rumors of the hermits any more... > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We > all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm saying that in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do more, and if I ever have free time again, I will (I have things I want to do along this line, since it's clear list-managers never will -- but I've also realized doing it badly is worse than doing nothing at all, so it's on hold until I have the time and resources to do something I won't be embarrassed by). I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any interest in new techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance of newbies, and isn't really interested in doing much of anything -- which is fine. I'm not saying it should be different than it is. But it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase of people here, we aren't more actively attempting to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to learning. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. - Saint Exupery From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 00:47:48 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA13411; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ulys.kiev.ua (ulys.kiev.ua [217.25.193.65]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E3217EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from nazarok (nazarok.ulys.kiev.ua [217.25.193.51]) by ulys.kiev.ua (/) with ESMTP id f188U6529470 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:30:07 +0200 (EET) (envelope-from nazarok@ulys.kiev.ua) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:32:07 +0200 From: nazarok X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.47 Halloween Edition) Personal Reply-To: nazarok Organization: ULYS Systems X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-reply-To: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Amy, Wednesday, February 07, 2001, 3:56:51 PM, you wrote: AS> Hey, AS> I joined this list around 6 years ago and found it a wealth of AS> information regarding list management. I left for a time. I won't AS> get into why, but now I'm back and have been for several months. AS> Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? You'd think AS> this place would be pretty busy. AS> Amy I am newby to this list but I'll say a couple of things. Last week I've subscribed to two lists - this one and majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM What I can say is that people post to majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM many messages every day while this list shows some activity only during current discussion. In last 10 days I received only 11 messages from this list snd 133 messages from majordomo-users. I can't say it's difficult to find how to subscribe to this list - as for it's rather simply - I've just visited official site of the Majordomo and found these lists. I thought that this list for "guru" while majordomo-users for ordinar admins. So if I have some questions I'd rather post it to that list. P.S. Sorry for my bad English - one more reason to keep silence :) -- Best regards, Nazarok Yuriy ULYS Systems mailto:nazarok@ulys.kiev.ua From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 05:18:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA19133; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:56:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07B117EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 04:56:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A6CF30CB0440; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:53:35 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:56:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> In-reply-to: References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 7 Feb 2001, at 21:34, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > It's dead for lots of reasons. Here's my take on things... Aww Chuq, tell us what you *really* think. The one time (back then) I responded to you privately, my address had been blocked from your site (at least that was the message I received). I won't make that mistake again. I left originally because the discussion had gotten way off track when a certain someone came aboard and essentially took over the discussion. Much had nothing to do with actual list management issues, only with his issues. I seem to recall the list underwent moderation for a time, but while *some* people's emails went through rather quickly, others (such as mine) were delayed. I said 'nuf and moved on. I got wind of this list because of Rob Novak (you still here?) who pointed me in this direction because I wanted to be a responsible list owner. I've run lists using LISTPROC, majordomo, Smart list (is that still around?) and LISTSERV. I currently run a list hosting site called LISTHOST.com (not to be confused with LISTHOST.net) out of my home using a 128k connection. I've looked at Lyris, but have shied away for 3 reasons: 1. Needs at least 128k of bandwidth 2. Their web message interface and searching is non-intuitive 3. It doesn't offer the ability to send many digests over the course of the day, which would affect over 500 of my digest subscribers on AOL. It would be paradise when LISTSERV classic would become affordable to those of us who don't have deep pockets. Currently, my basic costs to run the lists are close to 5k per year. I've stayed away from Yahoo/Egroups because I don't have a lot of faith in the business model and I have a basic distrust of their privacy policy. This is based upon creating a username, subscribing it to a list on Egroups after taking all the precautions to not get spam, and promptly being spammed. My problems running the lists are largely centered around copyright issues (because people seem to think my archives can be freely distributed) and education of the list members. I have learned there are lots of different ways to manage a list, but my main focus is to make the content a resource and available to all. Have a nice day. Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 05:47:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA19501; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stmpy-2.cais.net (stmpy-2.cais.net [205.252.14.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068D017EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from newnt.cais.com ([198.69.129.60]) by stmpy-2.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f18DYrv61213 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:34:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.0.20010208083604.02245a90@pop.cais.com> X-Sender: firschng@pop.cais.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:39:12 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dorothy Firsching Subject: Discussions about this list In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hey, quit the griping. This list has some great minds on it. It is one of the lists I continue to take a look at, and I have gotten answers on occasion when I needed them. The traffic is manageable. It's OK for it not to overwhelm us. I have several other lists I can't even keep up with. Just my $.02. Dorothy From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 06:32:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19890; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:14:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.ppnne.com (unknown [206.156.153.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFB317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:29 -0500 Message-ID: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCDC@MAIL> From: Sarah Standiford To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: FW: What happened? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: "A couple of questions: Why do you have a basic mistrust of egroups (now yahoo) and what jargon would you like to understand?" Amy --i'm concerned that services like egroups/yahoo, while performing an important function in making list management more accessible, continues the process of draining knowledge away from people who would otherwise be managing lists more directly. Given the option of working through a large profit making entity, or directly with the software, I;ll take the latter. The pirate ship analogy works for me. Re: jargon. I couldn't name it. i didn't understand it at the time. But i think this was a more general comment about the accessibilty of this list to new people (which Nazarok stated well). As a newcomer, I'll keep you posted. And make it my responsibility to speak up when there's clarification that would be helpful for me-as i should have done at the time anyway. and... "Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins?" --I'm not pessismistic about the unskilled list adminstrators. I am one. I'm pessismistic about the fact that people are less likely to learn new skills (programming, list managing , and non-computer related skills) now than even just a few years ago. This is my unresearched, non-statisticly supported opinion (which is likely irrelevant to the function of this list). But I dare you to challenge it. Sarah From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 06:47:36 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20059; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E9917EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:31:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-6.shoreham.net [208.144.253.10]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08419 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:31:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:08 -0500 To: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: RE: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <07C0768A99F6D311B40200C00D0079411BDCC7@MAIL> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > --You wrote "the average level of clue among list moderators > > has not only fallen severely over recent years, but the > > awareness that they need clue has dropped as well." The same thing has happened with list management that has happened in other parts of Internet usage -- we moved from a small cadre of computer-savvy, relatively experienced folks to a cross-section of humanity. Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) But there's an upside -- people like your grandmother and now participating in and running lists. Okay, so they need a lot of education. But it's a cool thing that they're here! The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only place that works for new users. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA19871; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:12:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567E317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (dsl_120w70 [151.202.20.126]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f18EBuu17700 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:11:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:40 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Message-ID: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.0.6 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I loved reading the different responses, it's like a cross section of the attitudes a working manager sees on her or his lists. (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, because I just had a troublemaker use the same kind of line on a very healthy list... it's a reminder that while we may be in charge Out There, we're just members here, and member perceptions can be strong and weird! Personally I think we're a spring-fresh fragrant sinkhole...) The primary reason Majordomo@Greatcircle is a blizzard of activity compared to this one is that Majordomo has a blizzard of problems, bugs and issues guaranteed to give you something to talk about. The secondary reason is that there's an active mechanism pointing new and upgrading Mj admins to join that list, so it stays perkin'. Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, you have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join it, therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. There is a misconception that if a list isn't constantly flowing with chitchat, it isn't working. That's true for "environment lists" like CoolKidsPlayhouse-L where the raison d'etre is just to have a bunch of people talking about stuff so that members don't feel lonely. It is not necessarily true for "topic lists" like RadioTelescopeRepair-L, which are often just one of a dozen lists each member is on, and which exist for a specific purpose. Someone's cryogenic receiver breaks, the call goes out and six experts give help, then all is quiet for a couple of weeks. That's perfectly natural, and those are the kind of lists where posting a cake recipe *will* get you flamed because overworked people *need to be able to be on that list without worrying about noise*. The culture clash on specialized lists is sometimes between people who are on several (or many) lists, and who just need each one to stick to its low-noise core topic so they can afford to read without going insane, versus people who just join that ONE list like it's their "club" and don't see why they shouldn't use it to talk about anything and everything. Neither approach is "wrong" but it can be hard for both kinds of members to co-exist. All of the above being said, there are probably list managers out there who could benefit from membership here and who don't know about us. One targeted way to reach the potential community would be to monitor NEW-LIST and send each new list's moderator an announcement about List-Managers, how to join etc. I bet the response rate would be quite high. We could also approach the maintainers of the Majordomo and Listserv home pages and see about getting the list mentioned somewhere in the web and downloaded README material. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:16:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20299; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from msic.dia.mil (msic-450.msic.dia.mil [136.205.227.211]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33E1817EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [136.205.227.85] (account allan HELO msic.dia.mil) by msic.dia.mil (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b9) with ESMTP id 964008 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:58:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:57:41 -0600 From: Allan Newsome Reply-To: allan@msic.dia.mil X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's hard to get help. I would think that there are several managers of lists that don't actually own the server but manage their list remotely. I run a majordomo list with about 1700 members and I'm hosted by 1-host.com who gives me access to their listserv. I do all the management by email and there have been times when I've asked a question and been made to feel less than a manager because I didn't have telnet access to my domo server. This list has not been very good for managers that are trying to learn how to manage because they are often treated like they shouldn't be asking questions and answers have been few and far between. That's my take. Allan From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:32:09 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA20307; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.oldradio.net (ns.oldradio.net [216.87.208.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9035117EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.104.7.214] (ip214.7.blca.blazenet.net [24.104.7.214]) by ns.oldradio.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09461; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:56:54 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: What happened? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:00 AM -0500 2/8/01, chuqui@plaidworks.com is rumored to have typed: > So it's the same 12 old > pharts (myself included) who occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap > to re-enact last Tuesday's argument again. Interestingly put, as the best example of a series of messages all suggesting the same thing. So you are all telling me this is _not_ where I should be. Ok, anyone have a pointer to where I _should_ be? I usually wait longer than a week and a half to post, but here's the deal; I've been running mailing list servers for a lot of years, and subscribe to the support list of the server-du-jour (I'm currently using SmartList because I cannot _stand_ majordomo and cannot _afford_ listproc; I am looking a bit at mailman, though), but never bothered to join any admin-centric list. I learned initially how to be an admin by excellent example (I've been on some Internet mailing lists since I used a bitnet gateway to pull them into a college office on a Macintosh Plus) and error (my first lists were run without requiring subscription confirmation as the Net commercialized; there are bunches of others, but this was by far the worst). But with current trends on the Net, like eGroups and Topica turning anyone with a WebTV into list "admins" (sorry, kids, I don't consider them administrators any more than I consider a child a CEO just because he sits in his daddy's big chair), control-panel software that hosting companies are giving their customers that serves no purpose but to _keep_ them completely clueless, and companies like AOL 6.0 and MSN Companion not just defaulting but _forcing_ HTML-based email without giving their users a choice (causing ugly digests, rejected messages, subscriber heartache, and even a hard look at demime), a "real" list admin is facing challenges that have never been seen before. And it's apparent to me that only by concerted and concentrated effort do "real" list admins stand a chance of dealing with these issues, so I decided to seek out a list specifically for administrators; that's how I found this list, written about so respectfully in various places on the Net as one of the oldest and best. I wondered why things have been so light (three digest issues since 30 Jan)...now I know. Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone clueful might point me in the right direction and tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? Charlie Summers From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 07:47:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20788; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dayspring.firedrake.org (dayspring.firedrake.org [195.82.105.251]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E014917EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from roger by dayspring.firedrake.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qsyq-0006Lh-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:27:32 +0000 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:27:32 +0000 From: Roger Burton West To: List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? Message-ID: <20010208152732.A24143@firedrake.org> Mail-Followup-To: List-Managers References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost>; from amys@amys-answers.com on Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:56:33AM -0500 X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is Full X-Discordian-Date: Prickle-Prickle, Chaos 39 3167 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On or about Thu, Feb 08, 2001 at 07:56:33AM -0500, Amy Stinson typed: >I've run lists using LISTPROC, majordomo, Smart list (is that still >around?) and LISTSERV. Yes, smartlist is very much still around! It's not undergoing especially active development, but it does very well for medium-sized lists that don't need built-in web interfaces. Roger From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:02:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20782; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6237817EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22647 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208093438.00bd94f0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:16:26 -0500 To: List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A825131.27047.3208C5C@localhost> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Another reason that this list has gotten quiet may be that there are a lot more lists for list managers than their used to be. Aside from lists to support specific software (LISTSERV, Majordomo, MailMan, Lyris, Yahoo/eGroups, etc.), I'm on: list-moderators@list-moderators.com (to join, join-list-moderators@list-moderators.com) onlinefacilitation@egroups.com (to join, onlinefacilitation-subscribe@egroups.com) - mainly about online teaching eModerators@egroups.com (to join, eModerators-subscribe@egroups.com) What makes this list different from these other lists? Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:17:38 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA20922; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3488717EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18Falj10514; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:36:47 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:41:47 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Margaret Levine Young , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 6:21 AM, "Margaret Levine Young" wrote: > The same thing has happened with list management that has happened in other > parts of Internet usage -- we moved from a small cadre of computer-savvy, > relatively experienced folks to a cross-section of humanity. > But there's an upside -- people like your grandmother and now participating > in and running lists. The priesthood is dead. That's a good thing. Egroups (now yahoogroups) is the online KOA campground for all this stuff, but that's not bad, either. People like to put it down, and it has its issues, but it enables a lot of people who can't afford a Hilton.... > Okay, so they need a lot of education. But who's stepped up to educate? That's the void I think Amy was commenting on, and it's a valid issue. List-managers isn't. > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > place that works for new users. The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be around to mentor them here, also... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:32:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21409; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8397317EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:18:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04090; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208110354.00bc9950@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:05:01 -0500 To: Chuq Von Rospach , List-Managers From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough >that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be >around to mentor them here, also... Chuq is right. I'm on the Listhelp list for egroups/yahoo managers, and in many cases it's the clueless leading the clueless. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 08:47:59 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21336; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E1F217EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:14:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max1-45.shoreham.net [208.144.253.49]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04106 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208110805.00bc8720@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:09:46 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the >server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other >words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's >hard to get help. Well, a list for *site managers* (the folks who run the list server software) might be useful but this list isn't supposed to be just for them. Also site managers usually need to get help from other folks who use the same software, so they are all on the software-specific lists, too. Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21610; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:33:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13EF717EC8 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18GRfj11669; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:27:42 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:32:41 -0800 Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tom Neff , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 6:10 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: > (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, No, not at all. If it was, I wouldn't be here. And while that occasionally is a tempting concept (and I'm sure a number of you would encourage it...), this place isn't a rotting sinkhole. Fixed in its ways is a better term. Maybe stagnant, but that's assigning an editorial value I'd rather avoid. > Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, you > have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join it, > therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant > postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play > children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a > real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. I guess it all comes down to what you want to be. This list doesn't want to take a leadership role in this stuff. That's fine -- but at times, the folks on this list then complain because stuff isn't run the way they want it run. If you want it run the way you think it ought to be run, go out and teach. But that's not what the list's interest is. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. 95% of being a net.god is sounding persuasive and convincing people you know what you're talking about, even when you're making it up as you go along. (chuq von rospach, 1992) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:17:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22011; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C6C17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:00:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from inspiron7000.gurus.com (max2-75.shoreham.net [208.144.253.79] (may be forged)) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16894 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208115457.00bcc7e0@imap.iecc.com> X-Sender: margy@imap.iecc.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:55:20 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Margaret Levine Young Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Charles, you're in the RIGHT place! Welcome! We're just crabby today... Margy Levine Young Coauthor of "The Internet For Dummies" and "Poor Richard's Building Online Communities" . Looking for kids' videos? Check out From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:32:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22148; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:10:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E30F17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qua4-0000PI-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:04 -0800 To: murr rhame Cc: "'list-managers@greatcircle.com'" Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from murr rhame of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:53:46 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:10:04 -0800 Message-ID: <1566.981652204@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:53:46 -0500 (EST) murr rhame wrote: > On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Sarah Standiford wrote: > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We all > had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. I agree -- mailing list are especially well suited to SIGs. However historically list moderators tended to be people with Internet clue who were already accustomed to the RFC/research process and the ideas of collaborative standards development. That majority demographic is long gone and the new population does not have the same expectations. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 09:47:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22354; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell3.ba.best.com (shell3.ba.best.com [206.184.139.134]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C050417EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (from snoovler@localhost) by shell3.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id JAA07262 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102081727.JAA07262@shell3.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> from List-Managers-Digest at "Feb 8, 1 01:00:43 am" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Fletcher Reply-To: markf@snoovler.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just to add my two cents... There are two great lists on eGroups/Yahoo Groups, emaillist-managers and listhelp. They are vibrant and full of people willing to help newcomers. Yes, they can be a bit eGroups-centric in some of their discussions, but with eGroups hosting well over a million lists now, I would think any general purpose list owner help list would have a lot of eGroups discussion. Check out: http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/emaillist-managers http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/listhelp Hope this helps. Mark From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:02:29 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22362; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:28:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E80D17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:28:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14QurV-0000lt-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:28:06 -0800 To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:28:05 -0800 Message-ID: <2967.981653285@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue > that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone > clueful might point me in the right direction and tell me where I > might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the > many modern challenges facing us? I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg the Mailman lists). This fact has also prompted me to consider this list more as an alert/synchronising venue (ala NANOG for american ISPs) rathre than a place to find and engage in purposive discussion. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:17:36 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22199; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:15:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E21917EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com (kula [160.43.2.2]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f18HEku22984 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:14:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:14:48 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: List-Managers Subject: Re: wazzzzzup? Message-ID: <576988875.981634488@NY110-19-024B.bloomberg.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.0a2 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --On Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:32 AM -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 6:10 AM, "Tom Neff" wrote: >> (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, > > No, not at all. If it was, I wouldn't be here. And while that occasionally > is a tempting concept (and I'm sure a number of you would encourage > it...), this place isn't a rotting sinkhole... I think that should be our official motto. "List-Managers@greatcircle: We're Not A Rotting Sinkhole!" >> Paradoxically, because this list isn't "marketed" or widely advertised, >> you have to be in possession of something like a clue to find and join >> it, therefore it is not flooded with misdirected, peabrain or irrelevant >> postings. Almost everybody here is too busy running lists to play >> children's games or otherwise waste energy. We come here when there's a >> real problem or issue, we deal, we get back to work. > > I guess it all comes down to what you want to be. This list doesn't want > to take a leadership role in this stuff. That, in turn, depends on how you define "this stuff." Reading on... > That's fine -- but at times, the > folks on this list then complain because stuff isn't run the way they > want it run. If you want it run the way you think it ought to be run, go > out and teach. But that's not what the list's interest is. If I read this right, it refers to the fact that we have relatively little patience for advocacy, sticking mostly to pragmatic advice and troubleshooting. It's true that we don't spend much time (or haven't lately) arguing how list software OUGHT to work, how list providers OUGHT to behave, etc. Some people just eat that stuff up, but I suspect that most of us have other stuff to worry about. This is List-Managers, not List-Dreamers or List-Activists or List-Philosophers, after all: what we really have in common is that there are lists to be run, work to be done. Again, I am not saying that the list is perfect today, but the areas I'd prefer to see improved are (a) penetration into the pool of working list managers, and (b) development of community resources that would make joining us more useful for more managers. I don't think that the existing roster needs to be more argumentative. I do think there is an opportunity for leadership through service and a wider sense of community. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:32:30 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23062; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tonnant.cnchost.com (tonnant.concentric.net [207.155.248.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687F017E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by tonnant.cnchost.com id NAA10432; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:20:31 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010208101922.020f2070@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:20:50 -0800 To: allan@msic.dia.mil, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> References: <3A810DD3.11378.52F8358@localhost> <1373884105.20010208103207@ulys.kiev.ua> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 06:57 AM 2/8/01, Allan Newsome wrote: >One thing I've seen is that on this list, if you don't control the >server with "majordomo" installed on it you're out of luck. In other >words, if you have a host that provides the listserv for you.....it's >hard to get help. I disagree. I've gotten quite a bit of help and I don't administer the servers that my lists are on, in one case I don't even have list administrator telnet access, only email access. I've just prefaced my requests for help with the appropriate background so that the people answering *know* what I can and can't do and can suggest appropriate solutions. jc From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 10:47:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23096; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail07.rapidsite.net (mail07.rapidsite.net [207.158.192.51]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E27517E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from www.jadebox.com (207.158.243.143) by mail07.rapidsite.net (RS ver 1.0.58s) with SMTP id 016353 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:24:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001601c091fb$bee1c5e0$4bbbf1d1@tacintel.com> From: "Roger Smith" To: "List-Managers" Subject: What happened? Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:19:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Loop-Detect: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > place that works for new users. We make list management software that's easier to install and use and that doesn't require a dedicated server such as Arrow (http://www.jadebox.com/arrow/). Arrow's only for small lists (up to a few thousand subscribers), but that makes it appropriate for a lot of special interest groups such as families, clubs, etc. -- Roger From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:01:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA21903; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:58:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp2.vnet.net (smtp2.vnet.net [166.82.1.32]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DC917EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:58:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net (katie.vnet.net [166.82.1.7]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18GwWO20769 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22701 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest > issue that I'm regrettably in the wrong place, any chance > someone clueful might point me in the right direction and > tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help real list > admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? The list-moderators list at www.list-moderators.com is still pretty good. It has an active list admin and a fair number of experienced list wranglers are $ubscribed... It does get noise from people seeking tech support for eGroups. Otherwise, I enjoy it. Are there any other mailing lists that deal mainly with list policy and general list hygiene rather than how to configure my software? - murr - From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:02:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA22968; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.oldradio.net (ns.oldradio.net [216.87.208.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB06017EBC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [24.104.7.214] (ip214.7.blca.blazenet.net [24.104.7.214]) by ns.oldradio.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11682; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:13:49 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Envelope-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2967.981653285@kanga.nu> References: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:11:44 -0500 To: J C Lawrence From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: What happened? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:28 PM -0500 2/8/01, J C Lawrence is rumored to have typed: > On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 > Charlie Summers wrote: > > > might find a list that _can_ help real list admins deal with the > > many modern challenges facing us? > > I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg the > Mailman lists). Er...but doesn't that imply that the mailman lists are doing one thing, the lycos lists another, the SmartList lists yet another, the...the... That is _not_ what I came to this list looking for. I think what I'm suggesting is that there needs to be a concerted effort among list admins. Since this isn't the list for it, maybe there's another, more vibrant list somewhere else. (Didn't I hear at one time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't find anything about it in a non-through web search, but maybe that list or another I don't yet know of is where I should be.) Charlie Summers From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:17:32 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23288; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:40:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE8A17E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qvzl-0000vT-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:41 -0800 To: Charlie Summers Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:11:44 EST." References: Message from Charlie Summers of "Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:54:47 EST." X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:40 -0800 Message-ID: <3561.981657640@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:11:44 -0500 Charlie Summers wrote: > At 12:28 PM -0500 2/8/01, J C Lawrence is rumored to have typed: >> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:54:47 -0500 Charlie Summers >> wrote: >> I've found the MLM-specific lists to be most useful for that (eg >> the Mailman lists). > Er...but doesn't that imply that the mailman lists are doing one > thing, the lycos lists another, the SmartList lists yet another, > the...the... Yes, which is unfortunate. The other side however is that Mailman (in this case) has an active population of experience list admins using it who are willing to talk about list admin issues. Its not a frequent thing, but it pops up enough to be more than useful. Arguably it would be better were there a central/shared venue for this, but I've yet to find one that was not minimally a catastrophic victim of its own success (moderating a list is hard work, building and running a list for list moderators, who know all the games and rules, doubly so)... > That is _not_ what I came to this list looking for. I think what > I'm suggesting is that there needs to be a concerted effort among > list admins. Since this isn't the list for it, maybe there's > another, more vibrant list somewhere else. (Didn't I hear at one > time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't find anything about it in a > non-through web search, but maybe that list or another I don't yet > know of is where I should be.) I wish you luck in your search. -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:32:35 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA22298; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (w212.z064001167.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net [64.1.167.212]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AFEF17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #1 (Debian)) id 14Qukn-0005oB-00; Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:09 -0800 To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: amys@amys-answers.com, List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message from Chuq Von Rospach of "Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:21:09 -0800 Message-ID: <22328.981652869@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:34:07 -0800 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: >> time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only >> fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they >> need clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. > And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And > if nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them > that it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This > place is the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone > down in the valley to know to come up here for instruction, but > nobody's gone down into the valley in so long the villages don't > even hear rumors of the hermits any more... I can't comment on this list -- I'm a new comer here as well. I'm inheriting its history. I have been a member of and active in several other list moderator lists, lists popularised and targetted for Egroups and Topica. My comments were written more about those lists and their member's stated expectations and behaviour than here. > I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking > new admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails > as the whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list > hasn't shown any interest in new techniques or technologies, > hasn't shown any tolerance of newbies, and isn't really interested > in doing much of anything -- which is fine. I'm not saying it > should be different than it is. But it's too bad that, given the > knowledgebase of people here, we aren't more actively attempting > to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those that are receptive to > learning. Very true. Instead I find the old timers who would do that have either been worn out by endless assault or been turned into hermetic curmudgeons as they were outnumbered. Building and running such a list is a very possible thing to do. I did it for most of a year with the EGroups list owners list, watching membership grow and a pleasant culture of professional expectation build. It wasn't easy, and in the end I simply gave up under the endless onslaught of noise (the fact that the actual list owner had more of a mosh-pit/free-chat goal for the list didn't help). -- J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu ---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ --=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 11:47:40 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA23229; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4837A17E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (dsl-64-195-231-125.telocity.com [64.195.231.125]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id NAA04813; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:36:13 -0500 (EST) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010208095041.0210b020@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:18:43 -0800 To: Charlie Summers , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: References: <200102080900.BAA13767@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 06:54 AM 2/8/01, Charlie Summers wrote: > Since it's apparent from the messages in the last digest issue that I'm >regrettably in the wrong place, any chance someone clueful might point me in >the right direction and tell me where I might find a list that _can_ help >real list admins deal with the many modern challenges facing us? I don't think your conclusion is apparent at all. In fact, I think your conclusion is completely backwards. This list is exactly the right place for list policy questions that span all types of list, and we have had some wonderful threads on this topic since I joined (last August). This list is exactly the right place for "what list server should I use" questions. If you are already using a specific list server, then a list tailored to that software package is probably the best and appropriate place for specific questions about that software. But even then, don't expect every list software list to be busy, I'm on the "listmanager" software discussion list and it's damn quiet most of the time. This list is NOT the place to hang out and chitchat. I *love* this list. I've been mostly lurking for a while (received 213 messages, replied to 3 of them). This list goes in spurts, with lots of discussion then lots of quiet time simply because no one has posted anything that needs discussing. When I first joined, there were 2 posts that day, then 2 weeks with no posts at all. Then there was a thread of 6 posts in 3 days on a single topic. There was a single post (no followups) 4 days later, then quiet again for another 6 days. Then there was a sudden spurt, over 20 posts in 2 days (discussing the article at ). And so on. Quiet, then bursty traffic when there is something to discuss. (Like now :-) I would say that one "list rule" that is 100% applied to ALL lists is that one should never post and whine that there "isn't a plethora of other posts whizzing by that I can read and just lurk". That is just plain rude. You should never jump on a list and then complain to the list that the list doesn't meet some poorly defined need of yours, first because you might be 100% wrong about the list (because you haven't been patient enough to find out what the list is about) and second because the list is obviously meeting the needs of its present subscribers and users. If you need to have something answered, post and ask! Otherwise just be patient, and see what the list does, and watch and read and learn. Only after you have figured out how a list works (which is rarely something you can do after only a week or two) would you be in a sound position to discuss the meta issue of how the list works. jc (list manager for 2 years, presently managing a busy 1100 user ISP industry list on majordomo, a 500 user hobby list on majordomo, a 100 user geek humor list on listmanager, and about to take on a hobby list of ~500 novice users and migrate it to mailman, and start an industry list of ~125 advanced users also on mailman) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 12:17:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA24187; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:56:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE4617E8E for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:56:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f18JpCj16085; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:51:13 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:56:11 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Charlie Summers , J C Lawrence Cc: List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 10:11 AM, "Charlie Summers" wrote: > (Didn't I hear at one time of a "LIST-MOM" list? I couldn't > find anything about it in a non-through web search, but maybe that list or > another I don't yet know of is where I should be.) It's on skyweyr.com, and it's even deader than list-managers is. It wakes up very occasionally, but it's pretty dead. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell." From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 13:47:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA25272; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F09117EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id NAA09224; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:27:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200102082127.NAA09224@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from murr rhame on Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST)) Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame The list-moderators list at www.list-moderators.com is still pretty good. It has an active list admin and a fair number of experienced list wranglers are $ubscribed... It does get noise from people seeking tech support for eGroups. Otherwise, I enjoy it. Thanks for the tip. I just joined. I like Michael and this list but it used to meet my needs more than it does now. I've been a member for years. We used to talk more about list owner policy issues. I've posted several times on that topic to get discussion going (and to get advice) and not much has come from it, though I did get some good replies. There is a need for lists that discuss the tech end of mailing list software (a step removed from the software itself), but I don't do that myself, so... And, unfortunately, a lot of topics on this list start off interesting and degrade into flame wars (which may be interesting to some, but not to me). The one topic I find myself interested in now is majordomo. When bestserv went belly up last fall I ended up on a friend's server running md. I know that every time someone posts md questions here, others refer them instead to a md list. Of course I never saved the address because I wasn't using md then. Could someone please point me to the md list? If there's more than one, I'm looking for a place where I can ask questions like "how do I get the author's name or email to appear in the list of posts in a digest header along with the subject lines?" And more technical questions to pass on to my friend who is new to md as well, like "I get an endless loop when I use a forward from my domain to the real list address; I can remove it on a moderated list no problem but how do I get it to work on an unmoderated one?" (Of course, if anyone wants to answer the questions above, please feel free!) Thanks, Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 14:17:28 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA25551; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:56:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB18717EBC for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA31873; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:56:06 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:56:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: , List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: Will add a 2cents. Sorry for the non-snipped context. > On 2/7/01 5:56 AM, "Amy Stinson" wrote: > > > Why is it so dead here? Aren't there MORE lists now? > > > You'd think this place would be pretty busy. > > First, the list has been on auto-pilot for basically forever. There's > very little management, and as far as I can tell, no marketing or any > attempt to make the list known to the outside world -- so while there > are zillions of new lists and list managers out there, why should they > know of the existance of the list and why should they come here > instead of other resources that ARE attempting to attract their > attention? > > Unless you hear about list-managers by word of mouth, you don't hear > about it. And even if you do, why should someone who doesn't already > know the list come to it? It's basically a ghost list -- the net grew > up, and the list just hung out in an eddy and got left behind. I found out about the list by doing a Liszt-search. *Years* ago. I'm not bothered that there is extra-low traffic here now; I've always felt amply enriched by the discussions on various issues. The place *now* is not a rotting cave; the latter would be where spammers have taken over. > Second -- the list isn't terribly open to newcomers. I've seen a good > number of people come around this place to ask for help and get > variations of the "what a stupid question, why are you wasting our > time?" response. Somehow I sensed that I should not be asking questions until I knew more and until I had my goals more clearly defined. No problem there. > A great introduction to new users looking for places > that are resources as they learn this stuff. > > Third -- this list isn't a good place to be unless you stick to what > certain members consider appropriate attitudes and policies. Anything > they consider inappropriate gets badgered and bludgeoned into > oblivion, which makes it very hard to discuss emerging issues and > practices, unless they happen to match their view of how stuff ought > to be run. I figured I was learning here some of the manners of iNET. I observed how people treated each other and figured when I became a grown-up, so to speak, I'd follow the same. I've in the past enjoyed Chuq's posts. IMHO he is ranting today & expressing disappointment. I'm a amateur taking up the _con_ side of the debate. > This place is a ghost town -- it's sitting here, slowly rotting in the > deserve, because nobody manages it, nobody's attempted to make it a > place people want to be, nobody's attempted to make it a place people > CAN find, and if they do happen to find it, they'll as likely be > greeted with silence or a rude attack as actually have their questions > answered. There's no fresh blood, no new ideas, and no tolerance of > either. So it's the same 12 old pharts (myself included) who > occasionally wake up from the mid-afternoon nap to re-enact last > Tuesday's argument again. Except I gave up and just don't bother any > more, since I have arguments on both sides memorized, so I don't need > to actually have the argument any more... > > On 2/7/01 8:25 AM, "J C Lawrence" wrote: > > > time the average level of clue among list moderators has not only > > fallen severely over recent years, but the awareness that they need > > clue has dropped as well. Not only in the dark, but blind. I assume there is a need for moderators. Both amateur and semi-pro, as they say in tennis. _Besides the clumsy student._ I'm planning to be doing that sooner or later. I'm on a list which recently was moved from to , and the environment there is tacky. I don't know if there is a way to market groups for 1, 2, and 3$ per year however I expect to one day find out. Well.... > > And who's taken a lead to teach these people how to be admins? And if > nobody's setting up systems to teach them and convincing them that > it's in their best interest to learn -- why should they? This place is > the hermit on the mountain, somehow expecting everyone down in the > valley to know to come up here for instruction, but nobody's gone down > into the valley in so long the villages don't even hear rumors of the > hermits any more... > People unwilling to deal with a little elitism are gonna have a problem taking any more college courses. :) > > Why so much pessimism about new and unskilled list admins? We > > all had to learn the ropes once. I don't begrudge anyone who's > > willing to try... I've helped start about a half dozen spin-offs > > from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty > > topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. I'm happy to hear this. I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I find the NG environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. With lists, lost messages seem less of a constant hazard. Agreeing again. :) > Way to go, Murr. (and while Murr and I don't agree on a lot, I'm > saying that in all sincerity). I try to do the same. I'd like to do > more, and if I ever have free time again, I will (I have things I want > to do along this line, since it's clear list-managers never will -- > but I've also realized doing it badly is worse than doing nothing at > all, so it's on hold until I have the time and resources to do > something I won't be embarrassed by). > > I really wish list-managers was an active, vibrant group, taking new > admins by the hand, leading by example, and blazing new trails as the > whole e-mail universe morphs around us. But this list hasn't shown any > interest in new techniques or technologies, hasn't shown any tolerance > of newbies, and isn't really interested in doing much of anything -- > which is fine. I'm not saying it should be different than it is. But > it's too bad that, given the knowledgebase of people here, we aren't > more actively attempting to evangelize "how it ought to be" to those > that are receptive to learning. > > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome > [ = = ] > Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. > Paul "I loathe people who keep dogs: they are cowards Bloomington, Ind who haven't got the guts to bite people themselves." -- A Strindberg > Love is the process of my leading you gently back to yourself. > - Saint Exupery > > > From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 18:09:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28125; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B1E2A17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa15088 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:51:43 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: RE: What happened? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:38:31 PST In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010208091723.00bcb6e0@imap.iecc.com> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Margaret Levine Young writes: > Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet > computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the > declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) This reminds me of the arguments we'd see on TV from quasi-concerned republican moralists some months back about how Clinton was unworthy to remain in the ranks of esteemed public servants....they meant his license to be a shyster. It was hilarious. I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; I only came online in February 1987. What I found is that the archetypal bright male juvenille with poor social skills was inexact in one detail - he wasn't very bright. The Net back then was decidedly male, malevolent, and moronic, no matter they knew how to post articles properly. Believe me, the influx of other humans, meaning women and those who may not have been older than sixteen but at least acted it, was a very definite improvement. So they didn't always know how to cloverwrap refractive retro commands in sufflex sendmail Snedley cones, they gave a sense you were no longer in a junior high locker room. There is a great paragraph in Death In The Afternoon representing how the current is always shadowed by the past. You are very fortunate I don't have it in front of me right now. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 18:24:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA28126; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4825717EC4 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa15098 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:57:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 17:05:25 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 16:54:49 PST In-Reply-To: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tom Neff writes: > I loved reading the different responses, it's like a cross section of the > attitudes a working manager sees on her or his lists. > > (My favorite was Chuq's "this list is a rotting sinkhole," etc, because I > just had a troublemaker use the same kind of line on a very healthy list... I've wanted to compare notes with other managers about types within the community. What Mr Neff describes I would recognize as the first stages of the Dying Swan Act. There are two natures to Dying Swan, and they are gender-based. One is male, and he says, "This organization is beneath my great capacity and overweaning talent!" - and waits around to be begged not to leave. The other sort will play victim: "Terrible Tommy has sorely aflicted me to the point I must tearfully leave your company." She also awaits the palm-patters. Another common character I call General Forest, after that Confederate cavalry officer's trick of running his troops in a circle past an opening up on a ridge while he was parlying with the enemy commander. One regiment of horse looks pretty much like another, and they look so much larger when you see them repeatedly as one point in a circle. General Forest always has a hidden ace up his spectral sleeve. She says, "Oh, I have many kind supportive E-mails, and they agree with my point utterly and totally, only they wish not to be named because they fear some vicious meanies here..." There are others. > The primary reason Majordomo@Greatcircle is a blizzard of activity compared > to this one is that Majordomo has a blizzard of problems, bugs and issues > guaranteed to give you something to talk about. The secondary reason is I was reading ahead: "...that anyone who dwells on Majordomo topics in here is toasted by several comradely curmudgeons who eagerly await just such an opportunity to show the malefactor the door to the other group." I sometimes fill in as I read. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 20:39:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA29677; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549CE17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f194Tvj03002; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:29:57 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:34:58 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Tim Bowden , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 4:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: >> Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet >> computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the >> declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) > I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life is great, and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed things up and the good old days were better. If you really care, there are some interesting links to some of the usenet-history mailing list archives available off of my home page (www.chuqui.com), since I was involved... > The Net back then was decidedly male, > malevolent, and moronic, no matter they knew how to post articles > properly. As opposed to what it is today... No, I won't go there. Other than to say a lot of what you see on the internet depends on what you put in and where you go looking. There are definitely areas of the net that agree with your definition, to generalize the net to BE that is a horrible overgeneralization. > Believe me, the influx of other humans, meaning women and those who may > not have been older than sixteen but at least acted it, was a very > definite improvement. They were always there. Maybe they just saw you coming and hid. (grin) -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:09:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA29851; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208CB17EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:54:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (lev@localhost) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09562; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:54:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: Paul K- X-Sender: To: Chuq Von Rospach Cc: List-Managers Subject: Re: What happened? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: [to M. Levine's] > > The question is my mind is: how do we make lists work for Joe Sixpack List > > Manager? I hate for commercial places like Yahoo Groups to be the only > > place that works for new users. > > The technological leap between yahoogroups and running your own is enough > that maybe it's better that they do use yahoo -- but someone ought to be > around to mentor them here, also... Is there not the issue also of some people wanting messages on a more reliable basis, and cleaner than yahoo can provide? Wherever I'm to learn my admin skills, I still think I can set a list up somewhere (as I've said, with a small amt $ being paid) which has a better look and is more reliable than these (small) turnkey freebies. -Paul > > -- > Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome > [ = = ] > Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. > > Some days you're the dog, some days you're the hydrant. Paul Bloomington, Ind To have doubted one's first principles is the mark of a civilized man. : - Oliver Wendell Holmes : :*nine_stories*,salinger=****........................................: From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:24:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA00167; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from deepthought.armory.com (deepthought.armory.com [192.122.209.42]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD07317EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from clovis by deepthought.armory.com with uucp id aa01471 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by clovis.nerdnosh.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 08 Feb 01 19:34:24 PST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Why are we here? From: Tim Bowden Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Feb 01 19:22:58 PST In-Reply-To: <3A82B3E5.DD706AC@msic.dia.mil> Organization: NERDNOSH - the story continues... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Allan Newsome writes: > I would think that there are several managers of lists that don't > actually own the server but manage their list remotely. Here's another. > I run a majordomo list with about 1700 members and I'm hosted by > 1-host.com who gives me access to their listserv. I do all the > management by email and there have been times when I've asked a > question and been made to feel less than a manager because I didn't > have telnet access to my domo server. Oh, I have that. I just know very little about what to do when I'm there. > This list has not been very good for managers that are trying to learn > how to manage because they are often treated like they shouldn't be > asking questions and answers have been few and far between. I'm sorry, but this comment is misplaced, it should be routed to alt/listserv/nonserve/complaint. Joke. That's a joke. Do you know for a long time the prejudice of men against women drivers was based upon the perceived female lack of interest in changing sparkplugs and relining brakes? This was a firmly-held notion - except by insurance underwriters, who knew women were by any measure the better drivers by far, being primarily interested in arriving where they were headed and returning safely. tcbowden@nerdnosh.org (Tim Bowden) "The reason you can never go home again is because you can never leave." - Timocrates From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 21:39:57 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA00153; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:10:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF8417EB3 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [209.239.169.199] (barfy.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.199]) by plaidworks.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f1955Fj03639; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:05:16 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800 Subject: Re: What happened? From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Paul K- Cc: , List-Managers Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/8/01 1:56 PM, "Paul K-" wrote: > Will add a 2cents. Sorry for the non-snipped context. And here's your change, sir... > I'm not > bothered that there is extra-low traffic here now; I've always felt > amply enriched by the discussions on various issues. The place *now* is > not a rotting cave; the latter would be where spammers have taken over. > I've in the past enjoyed Chuq's posts. IMHO he is ranting today & > expressing disappointment. And with these snippets, off I head towards left field, with the crowd in full chase.... Yes, I ranted earlier today -- and I'm sorry for that. It's what I felt had to be said, I don't think I said it particularly well. So I'll try again and see what happens. I *am* bothered by the low traffic here. The reason I'm bothered is that there is a huge body of knowledge and experience here, and I hate to see it laying fallow or going to waste. This is a huge period of innovation, growth and evolution in the e-mail world, and there are any number of people here that I think ought to be leading the way in this mainstreaming of e-mail on the net, and yet the list as a body, and most of the people on it, have basically opted out and are standing on the sidelines. This bothers and frustrates me, because this e-mail revolution is happening with or without them, and without them, it's that much harder to make sure it happens in good ways. The only thing that's sure is it's going to happen -- is happening, and frankly, at this point, mostly HAS happened. The major revolutions are done and settling in, and the next 18 months or so are evolutionary cleanup and enhancement, so it's sort of too late to be a major influence on anything. This list has been quick to gripe about stuff (especially things like eGroups) -- but slow to actually try to fix stuff, influence it, or try to build other things that are better. I've fought the fights I could fight, and won some of them, lost some of them. But it was never a winnable fight as one person. Which is one reason why this list got to listen to various rants over the last couple of years -- because the tidal wave was coming, and I really felt that the people on this list needed to be out there helping influencing, but the people here on the list simply weren't interested in getting involved. I tried to change that. In retrospect, I handled it badly. When I realized I was acting just like some of people that I was usually conflicting with here, and justifying it to myself with the "but god is on my side, so..." rationale, I shut the hell up about it all. The answer to "no" isn't to ask again louder, and basically that's what it turned into. My bad. Religious zealotry is bad, even if it's mine (especially if it's mine) This place -- on reflection -- is a lot like what was left of the old Usenet backbone cabal after the rebellion. Lots of knowledge that ought to be put to use; no motivation to use it, no real interest in having it used. And if I'd caught the similarities earlier, I'd have probably handled it differently. Knowledge isn't enough -- there has to be an energy behind it to make things happen, and the people on this list have all paid their dues in the trenches. I'll be the first to say that after a while you decide it's time to back off and pick your fights. I tried to force something I decided was my fight on everyone else and didn't take no gracefully. My bad. I think there were places things could have been influenced to good benefit. Now -- it's all water under the bridge. Maybe next time. So count me for a dollop of disappointment, a quart of frustration, but also a slab of realization that what I was expecting was unreasonable. Life moves on. I still hope to be able to influence how this all comes together down the road. I still think we need the people with a clue in there helping to make things go in the right direction. But instead of trying to imprint that on this list, I'm moving in other directions. When I'm ready to talk about those, I will -- and those that want to help can come join. That's how I should have handled it from the start, and in retrospect, I wasted a lot of time and effort (our time, our effort) because I didn't. Live and learn. Hopefully a little more explanation and a little less whine this time. >>> from one list that I run. In my humble opinion, small specialty >>> topics are one of the things mailing lists handle very well. > > I'm happy to hear this. I'm currently working on a piece on why mail lists suck for community work. But like all sweeping generalizations, it's an imperfect rant -- because that's a place where the mail list works wonderfully; as long as it stays small and focussed. Unfortunately, I think mail lists scale horribly, and so you end up with problems sooner or later -- but only if you succeed and grow your audience. If you suck or fail and stay small.. (grin) > I hear so much, how good NewsGroups are, but I > find the NG environment -- tech wise -- is less well-controlled. NNTP -- the technology -- is a great technology. USENET -- the nework built on NNTP -- sucks. But NNTP in a non-propogating or limited propogation system can be very powerful and useful. It depends on the implementation and administration. Chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. "He doesn't have ulcers, but he's a carrier." From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 8 22:53:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA00984; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from aloha.webkahuna.com (aloha.webkahuna.com [207.26.54.245]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70C9617E8C for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from JANET (aux-209-217-59-63.oklahoma.net [209.217.59.63]) by aloha.webkahuna.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA07215; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:44:21 -0600 From: Janet Detter Margul To: Tim Bowden Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:44:18 -0600 Organization: WeeBe Graphics Reply-To: janet@dm.net Message-ID: References: <2370897230.981623440@[192.168.1.101]> <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> In-Reply-To: <32mZ5F2w165w@clovis.nerdnosh.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Okay, this lurker will bite on that one. I see all the list personality types you mention, do you see my "need to organize" types? These are the ones who, well, I won't even speculate as to motivation, but need to keep Lists of Things. And they write me, as list-owner to ask if anyone keeps a list of (whatever) and if not, could they? Being the benevolent dictator I am, I always say "okay, you're now the official Member Birthday List Keeper" (or whatever, I think out of about a thousand on my list, there's probably 10 or more official list keepers of something). And they do it, periodically they post either their list or a portion of it or that members can write them to get a copy. And when they get sick of it, there are others wanting the honor of stepping in their shoes. It boggles me, but then again, I never see the need for a list in the first place. And if it keeps 'em happy, why not? Mail list titles are cheap. And don't we all have the list police, the ones who point out every waste of bandwidth/minor infraction (talk about a waste of space)?=20 And the list urban legend passer... and the list urban legend buster... and on and on and on and on... =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Janet Detter Margul | Real women don't have hot flashes... WeeBe Graphics Plano, Texas | they have power surges! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D See my jewelry at http://www.weebedazzled.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 03:23:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA04963; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lists.cap.gov (miles.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.45]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EDC17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tarsus.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by lists.cap.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2571459C for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:10:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from quill.thinkcoach.com (root@pop-be-2-1-dialup-124.freesurf.ch [194.230.162.124]) by tarsus.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09712 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.thinkcoach.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SuSE Linux 8.9.3-0.1) id LAA32213; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:45 +0100 Message-Id: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Authentication-Warning: quill.thinkcoach.com: norbert set sender to nb@thinkcoach.com using -f From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800) Subject: how to make mail lists scale well References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > I'm currently working on a piece on why mail lists suck for community work. > But like all sweeping generalizations, it's an imperfect rant -- because > that's a place where the mail list works wonderfully; as long as it stays > small and focussed. Unfortunately, I think mail lists scale horribly, and so > you end up with problems sooner or later -- but only if you succeed and grow > your audience. If you suck or fail and stay small.. (grin) Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large mailing lists? I've been thinking about this a lot, and the best idea that I've come up with is to use an edited ezine format for internet-based conversations that are intended to attract many participants. A live example of this idea (still in its early stages) is online at http://integrity-in-politics.com/ What do you think about this approach? Warm greetings, Norbert -- Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 nb@thinkcoach.com From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 04:08:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA07235; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8884817EC8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from memoria (pool0581.cvx6-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.160.71]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01082 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:56:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20010209032947.00d1d2a0@alteria.com> X-Sender: alteria@alteria.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:53:10 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alterian Corps of Reality Engineers Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? In-Reply-To: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Tim Bowden wrote: >There are others. This is off-topic, but I too am fascinated by the categorization of user types based on personality traits (due to my background in roleplaying games and the moderation of chat sites), and your characterization of General Forest was a good one. Hell, even if it's just done for the sake of our own private amusement, assigning nomenclature to user types is useful for many reasons, none the least of which is to remind us not to take anything they do *too* seriously. Along those lines, you might enjoy "A Netizen's Guide to Flame Warriors," an illustrated handbook by Mike Reed: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame01.html LVX TF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As If Productions http://www.asifproductions.com Interactive Worlds and Immersive Obsessions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 05:55:51 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA08335; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:50:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A4417E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A4EB87B00428; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:47:23 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:50:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A83AF4E.6394.8785A70@localhost> In-reply-to: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> References: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:10:16 -0800) X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 2001, at 11:58, Norbert Bollow wrote: > Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large > mailing lists? That's been on my mind lately also. Once you get over 1000 members, a "give and take" forum gets mostly taken (IMO). List royalty emerges and true discourse is discouraged. I've seen it happen on my "main" list and we discuss machine knitting. I'd hate to see what would happen if it grows to 10,000 members (like it would ). Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 06:08:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA08540; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from amys-answers.com (unknown [206.53.239.113]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A32317E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:05:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from famroom [206.53.239.126] by amys-answers.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.05) id A876375A0440; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:02:30 -0500 From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:05:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: wo'hoppen? Reply-To: amys@amys-answers.com Message-ID: <3A83B2D9.16028.8863222@localhost> In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20010209032947.00d1d2a0@alteria.com> References: <200102090900.BAA02473@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Feb 2001, at 3:53, Alterian Corps of Reality Eng wrote: > Along those lines, you might enjoy > "A Netizen's Guide to Flame Warriors," an illustrated handbook by Mike > Reed: http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame01.html Dang! He beat me to it. I send my listowners to this site as it really gives them insight to the various personalities that emerge on a list. Amy Amy ----- Amy Stinson Visit the Machine Knitting Internet Resource http://www.machine-knit.com MACHKNIT-SUBSCRIBE-REQUEST@LISTHOST.COM From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 06:23:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA08189; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70CDF17E8E for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 05:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from admin3 (admin3.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mail.rev.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f19Dagn05244 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:36:42 -0500 Message-Id: <200102091336.f19Dagn05244@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: List-Managers Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:36:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: What happened? Reply-To: bernie@fantasyfarm.com In-reply-to: References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 8 Feb 01, at 20:34, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 2/8/01 4:38 PM, "Tim Bowden" wrote: > > >> Remember when AOL connected to the Net and unleashed AOLers on Usenet > >> computer-savvy, newsgroups? Much moaning and groaning about the > >> declining level of users ensued. (And it was true.) > > > I wonder if Usenet ever had this golden era. I don't know, I guess; > > Yeah. To some degree it still is -- every generation thinks life is great, > and every previous generation thinks the new one screwed things up and the > good old days were better. ... Indeed, yes. Remember when NSF first enabled schools to connect to the net willy-nilly, and was born the "September effect"? (of course, now the .edu folks are nearly the elder-statesmen and subsequent 'generations' have mutated that into "It's always september somewhere on the Internet"]. Over the life of the net, virtually EVERY wave of arrivals has tried to pull up the ladder behind them as they look in horror as the _next_ wave of arrivals apparently is spoiling it all... Only us'uns that have been on from the start are truly pure-of-heart..:o) /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 08:38:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA10062; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E754817EB8 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from two.elistx.com (two.elistx.com [209.116.254.209]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-24 #44856) with ESMTP id <0G8I00AE10JLX8@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:30:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:32:45 -0500 (EST) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: how to make mail lists scale well In-reply-to: <200102091058.LAA32213@quill.thinkcoach.com> X-Sender: galvin@two.elistx.com To: Norbert Bollow Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Do you have ideas for addressing the scaling problems of large mailing lists? You are referring only to discussion elists, right? Size shouldn't matter to newsletters, e-zines, or announcements. Moderation can help but it's frequently not practical. One thing I have found that sometimes