Clyde, I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to respond
to the list with a PRIVATE e-mail from me to you. I really
didn't think the list would be interested in my reponse to
But oh well,.... Once again this is all YOUR OPINION.
Most people classify this sort of post with IMHO. You
give ZERO data to back up your claims.
BTW: IMHO really means, "I really don't know jack about
this, I just pulled it out of thin air".
From: Clyde Williamson [SMTP:clydew @
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 7:26 PM
To: bryan; firewalls @
Subject: RE: NT as a central intranet firewall
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I would much rather install my own air conditioning in a car than
have it put in for me, if it ment that the car would be reliable.
NT is not reliable yet.... Someday it may be, but now it's not. The
reason NT is gaining in market share is becasue of M$ marketing and
lazy IS dept's. Novell is much more stable than NT. But it takes half
a brain to use, and it doesn't come with M$ on the label. You talk
about the real world... I'm in the real world. My company has teams
in NT, UNIX, Novell, Banyan VINES, Macintosh, specialized Internet,
App. Development, and project management. We have many, many
customers in all of those catagories. And I can tell you from
experience in the real world, the reason, the only reason, IS likes
NT is that it's easy and popular. It's not reliable, it's not
scaleable, it's useless.
At 01:28 PM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>You left out the fact that this is ALL your opinion. On this list
>you are preaching to the choir. Go out in the real world and
>you will find people left and right who disagree with you. It is
>demonstrated by consumers voting with their dollars, NT
>continues to overtake UNIX in market share.
>Let me help you understand the REAL reason people are turning
>to NT in droves. It is a complete package. You mention cars
>below. That's a great analogy. How thrilled would you be if
>you had to go on a scavenger hunt after getting your car before
>you could drive it. Or if you needed air conditioning, you had
>to assemble it yourself.
>It's not just because they are lazy that the switch continues. It
>is ease of use. I'm sorry but I really don't want to waste my
>human memory resources on remembering a bunch of
>nonintuitive command line options in order to do the slightest
>administrative chore done. Oh I'm aware that there are GUI
>packages (X based) that free you from some of that but
>once again it's tool X from company A + tool Y from company
>B, neither with any shared operation procedures.
>With the shortage in qualified administrative personnel, one sys
>admin now needs to administer more machines, usually
>in addition to being the single contact person for user problems.
>The argument that we "should hire more sys admins and spend
>more money training them" is never going to win over "lets
>use smarter systems that require less administration".
>Just because something works best for you doesn't mean it's
>From: Clyde Williamson [SMTP:clydew @
>Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 12:42 AM
>To: Paul McNabb; firewalls @
>Subject: Re: NT as a central intranet firewall
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>If automobiles had that kind of performance we'd be outraged. Of
>course if we had to put vendor specfic gas into them we'd be
>Microsoft is accepted today because it's easy. The world is becomimg
>full of IS Managers, Sys Admins, etc. that are too lazy to deal with
>an authentic network operating system like UNIX (any flavor) or
>Novell. Unfortunately, this infrastructure being built on Bill Gates
>back is weak... you get out of it what you put into it. And right
>M$ is putting nothing into it. What does this mean for the future?
>Either, NT goes through a major evolution (hint: cut and paste the
>kernal and OS code from Linux), or Infrastructure will come crashing
>down around our ears.....
>- ----End Mini-Rant----
>At 01:06 PM 12/9/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>> From: "Craig I. Hagan" <hagan @
>>> Consider: a small office wants to firewall off its finance
>>> which has ~5-20 people. Everyone uses 10M ethernet. the system
>>> during business hours. An occasional outage is reasonable, after
>>> desktops also wipe out every now and then, too.
>>Isn't it sad that after more than 15 years of building and selling
>>of millions of desktop systems and seeing trillions of dollars of
>>we have come to accept unstable, hacked-together systems as normal
>>reasonable instead of shocking and unforgiveable?
>>Paul McNabb Argus Systems Group, Inc.
>>Vice President and CTO 1809 Woodfield Drive
com Savoy, IL 61874 USA
>>FAX 217-355-1433 "Securing the Future"
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>Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
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>PGP Public Key found at http://users1.ee.net/clydew/pgp.htm
>"My uncle always said that there was more
>than one way to skin a cat....
>I guess that explains the fur pants."
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PGP Public Key found at http://users1.ee.net/clydew/pgp.htm
"My uncle always said that there was more
than one way to skin a cat....
I guess that explains the fur pants."