From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 1 15:21:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA01297; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from aurinko.taivas.com (aurinko.taivas.com [193.65.127.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA01290 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 15:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (tuupola@localhost) by aurinko.taivas.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA00833 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 02:31:36 -0300 (GMT) Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 02:31:36 -0300 (GMT) From: Mika Tuupola X-Sender: tuupola@aurinko.taivas.com To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Legal disclaimers Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any pointers to a "standard legal disclaimer" which basically prohibits companies like RemarQ from archiving a list or having a subscription (web) interface to any of my lists? -- Mika Tuupola http://www.appelsiini.net/~tuupola/ From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 1 16:51:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA01918; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.mc.net (mail.mc.net [209.172.128.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id QAA01911 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 16:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14794 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2000 00:59:56 -0000 Received: from chi-ras-5-209-112-91-150.mc.net (HELO ?209.112.92.95?) (209.112.91.150) by mail.mc.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 2000 00:59:56 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: twentz@mail.mc.net Message-Id: Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2000 18:54:21 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Tim Wentz Subject: Re: Mail Lists on RemarQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Rating: mail.mc.net 1.6.1 0/1000/N Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [I sent this yesterday morning, but I haven't seen it so I'm resending it.] Our list was alerted to remarq's tactics in late February when one of our s*bscribers found a new message board on remarq that delivered the same messages she was getting from our list. What we found was: whenever anyone s*bscribes to remarq's "message board" for our list, their system sends a s*bscribe command to our list. All of the messages are archived from the moment the first remarq s*bscription comes through and they maintain a s*bscriber list gleaned from the posts. From the moment we realized what was happening we locked down our list, changing the config files to require admin approval of s*bscribe requests so that we could prevent remarq from receiving any more posts. My wife sent a list of complaints to remarq's support staff and they removed the archives and our mailing list from their site within 24 - 36 hours. Once we were off remarq's site, we went back to normal operations. Tim Wentz twentz@mc.net Here's what was sent to remarq. >Your company has chosen to advertise and make available to your >subscribers the Unschooling List. While I appreciate the additional >publicity for my list, you should be aware that you are violating >several of the Unschooling Lists written policies by doing so. Please >discontinue this practice immediately by removing all archives from any >records you may have, destroying the list of names and addresses of >subscribers you have collected and removing our name from your boards. > >My list of complaints to date is as follows: > >remarq has chosen to archive our list against our written policy, and >make it available and even cross reference my list with many other >lists. We have a strong 'no archives' policy in place and have for 5 >years. This is completely and totally unacceptable. Allowing our >illegal collected archives and cross posting them to subscribers of >other lists is not only a massive invasion of privacy - but also >highly illegal as we have young children disccussing personal matters >here and you are not only allowing access by the general public but >displaying their private e-mail addresses too. > >remarq jeopardizes our privacy by making a list of all active list >members available to anyone who joins the list, including >spammers who may join for 5 minutes and then leave This violate >written policy in my Welcome Message and in my own config files. > >remarq subscribers have access to other people's private ADMIN >reminders, messages, even unsubscribed people's requests to be >subscribed! I can't privately communicate or scold one remarq >subscriber without all the others knowing. > >remarq does not allow me to communicate with a person wanting to join >our community until after they are allowed in. I, as a list >owner, need to be able to be sure all applicants are aware of our >purposeand our rules. As we have children on our list, their security >and privacy are of the utmost imporatnce to me. > >remarq s*ubscribers don't get the lists Welcome Message when they join, >so they are unaware of our posting guidellines. > >remarq s*ubscribers seem to have between 5-10% of their daily mail >bounced back to me as undeliverable (*very* poor service!) > >remarq didn't have the common courtesy to ask the list owners about our >being included in their 'service' - or to disclose their policies, >they just snatched us up Rather than being polite and letting a list >'opt-in' you are insisting that a list 'opt-out' after the damage to >privacy has already been done. > >remarq's privacy disclosure statement basically says you shouldn't >expect privacy on the internet and that it isn't their problem to >provide it. Well sirs, I assure you we had at least some privacy before >you began archiving and cross posting my list in a public forum. > > >I have required all new subscriptions to be approved, and unsubbed all >existing remarq subscribers. Of course, as they have not unsubbed from >remarq, they still have unlimited access to not only the illegally >collected UL archives, but also the illegally collected address book. > >Again, I am requesting that all posts, all records and all mention of >the Unschooling List please be immediately removed from your site and >all affiliated sites. > >I expect written confirmation of my request by the close of business >Tuesday, Feb. 22, 2000. From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 1 19:51:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA03046; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA03039 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 19:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway.quilt.net (adsl-138-88-43-76.bellatlantic.net [138.88.43.76]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA11844 for ; Sat, 1 Apr 2000 22:58:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000401225814.02536a30@mail.his.com> X-Sender: judy@mail.his.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 23:02:32 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Judy Smith Subject: Mail Lists on Topica In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk RemarQ removed my list within a day or two after I asked them to, but now, my list has shown up on Topica, which, if I'm not mistaken was merged with RemarQ.. (There is some connection between the two, but I can't remember what it is.. ) What is most interesting is that Topica is PAYING people for referring lists of over 300 people to them.... Check out this URL: http://www.topica.com/referral/index.html .... -Judy ==================================================== Judy Smith -=- http://www.quiltart.com/judy judy@quilt.net -=- judy_smith@msn.com -=- QUILTNSEW@delphi.com Visit the Quiltart Home Page -=- http://www.quiltart.com From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 2 11:21:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA11143; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yaz.hyperreal.org (pez.hyperreal.org [207.181.224.6]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id LAA11136 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6949 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Apr 2000 18:21:29 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 2 Apr 2000 18:21:29 -0000 Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 11:21:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Judy Smith cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mail Lists on Topica In-Reply-To: <4.3.1.2.20000401225814.02536a30@mail.his.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk No, Critical Path merged with Remarq, Topica is still independent. Brian On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, Judy Smith wrote: > RemarQ removed my list within a day or two after I asked them to, but now, > my list has shown up on Topica, which, if I'm not mistaken was merged with > RemarQ.. (There is some connection between the two, but I can't remember > what it is.. ) From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 2 15:22:31 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA13152; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (i180.value.net [206.14.136.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA13145 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from monkeys.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by monkeys.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27319 for ; Sun, 2 Apr 2000 15:24:03 -0700 (PDT) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mail Lists on Topica In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 02 Apr 2000 11:21:29 -0700. Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 15:24:03 -0700 Message-ID: <27317.954714243@monkeys.com> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , you wr ote: > >No, Critical Path merged with Remarq, Topica is still independent. Just a small clarification... According to: http://www.cp.net/media/pr_mar31_00.html Critical Path aquired Remarq. (Aquisition is somwhat different from merger.) From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 7 07:06:23 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA25400; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id GAA25393 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 06:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from admin3 (admin3.rev.net [12.26.100.205]) by mail.rev.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e37EAMJ28143 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:10:22 -0400 Message-Id: <200004071410.e37EAMJ28143@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 10:10:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Qmail question Reply-to: bernie@rev.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Apologies for the offtopic inquiry, but I'm pretty sure there are a bunch of qmail experts here and I need dollop of reassurance: We're contemplating swtiching from sendmail to qmail. This is already a bit of an operational problem [worrying about how many things will break when we do the conversion [e.g., we have various system tools we've written for messing with mailboxes that will probably break; other tools for collecting stats, processing logs, etc] we'll have to also change to a different POP server so more changes will have to be dealt with] and trying to bound how much of a disturbance it'll be to operations to 'drop in' qmail... So I visit DJB's qmail page and discovered, rather to my dismay, that qmail seems to require also replacing inetd.. Now while this might be a prudent and sensible thing to do, it also will potentially 'rock' a *LOT* of other programs and applications.. But undaunted, I go and check the links for tcpserver and discover that it is apparently not just an inetd replacement, but it, itself, a whole collection of apps [ucspi-tcp]... Again, the problem isn't that this that isn't isn't a prudent/recommended changover, but it has very much changed the size of the 'try qmail' project --- Surely switching to qmail can't take THIS much much mucking around down in the bowels of the TCP machinery???? Thanks! /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 7 09:52:49 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA27021; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA26992 for ; Fri, 7 Apr 2000 09:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9524 invoked by uid 100); 7 Apr 2000 12:56:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:56:30 -0400 (EDT) From: John R Levine To: Bernie Cosell cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Qmail question In-Reply-To: <200004071410.e37EAMJ28143@mail.rev.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Surely switching to qmail can't take THIS much much mucking around > down in the bowels of the TCP machinery???? Thanks! Naah. Here's the true facts: You can run qmail-smptd from inetd if you want to, so long as you use tcpd or something else that can set the RELAYCLIENT environment variable for hosts on your own network that are allowed to relay mail. (If you don't have any hosts that need to relay, you don't even have to do that.) But inetd doesn't work very well for high-volume services, due to a fairly lame design. Rather than remembering how many of each service is active, it just turns off services when they are started up "too often", regardless of whether the daemons are keeping up. Tcpserver, on the other hand, is configured with a limit to the number of active daemons, and rejects connections only when it's at that limit. This keeps the system from falling over when you get a burst of spam without turning off mail altogether. Tcpserver comes with a bunch of other programs in a package called ucspi-tcp. The other programs aren't particularly useful unless you plan to fully DJB-ize your system. But you don't have to. What I do, and what most other qmail users seem to do, is to use tcpserver to run qmail-smtp and perhaps a few other high volume services. (I use it to run the abuse.net whois server, for example.) I still use inetd to run servers for ftp, pop3, and other services that aren't high volume. If you use tcpserver, you'll probably want to use rblsmtpd to reject mail on the MAPS RBL or MAPS RSS. I also have a modified version called "detour" that sets an environment variable so you can accept the mail but detour it into a spam trap or a program that sticks on an "X-Suspicious" header and delivers it anyway. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 10:22:34 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA25296; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA25289 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16206 ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:28:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:25:19 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Laurie turned my on to this today... FYI. -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 12:52:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA26309; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA26302 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e39K4Ye26508 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:04:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Chuq Von Rospach cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > Laurie turned my on to this today... FYI. > > There are one or two bogus-to-me assumptions there, though. Bouncing mail addressed to abuse@ or postmaster@ would constitute non-compliance (and remember, abuse@ is still a *draft* RFC). Autoresponding with the appropriate addresses (as long as they in turn are read) is compliant, though maybe not in the way you might prefer. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 13:22:33 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA26608; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA26601 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA33658 ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:39:51 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:30:33 -0700 To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" , Chuq Von Rospach From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:04 PM -0700 4/9/2000, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: >There are one or two bogus-to-me assumptions there, though. > >Bouncing mail addressed to abuse@ or postmaster@ would constitute >non-compliance (and remember, abuse@ is still a *draft* RFC). Agreed. The other thing is that I'm not surprised that mail to an AOL-internal help address bounced, since those people are supposed to be helping AOL people. It'd be like e-mailing me at Apple to get tech support (it won't work); that the external stuff is broken or suboptimal doesn't magically mean the internal addresses should start taking external mail. >Autoresponding with the appropriate addresses (as long as they in turn are >read) is compliant, though maybe not in the way you might prefer. Yeah. As someone who's been supportive of AOL here over the years, I have to admit I'm not thrilled here, and I tihnk they blew it. that and $6.00 will get you a decent coffee at Starbucks... -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 14:07:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA26764; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [216.240.39.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA26757 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [216.240.39.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id OAA15865; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:07:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 14:09:28 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Roger B.A. Klorese" wrote: > Bouncing mail addressed to abuse@ or postmaster@ would constitute > non-compliance (and remember, abuse@ is still a *draft* RFC). > > Autoresponding with the appropriate addresses (as long as they in turn are > read) is compliant, though maybe not in the way you might prefer. The specific problem I had a week or so ago was that the autoresponder responded with, not an email address, but a pointer to a FAQ, and the FAQ (which had obviously not been updated) told people to send mail to the postmaster/abuse address. Endless loop. That is certainly noncompliant. The FAQ also made reference to telephoning the NOC in certain circumstances, and that would constitute compliance, to my thinking. Therefore, my assumption is that AOL wants outside postmasters to telephone the NOC to inform them of external email problems, since it has provided that contact, while failing to provide any others. So I would urge everyone to use that route as well, and explain the reasoning on each phone call. If this happens I wonder how long it will take for them to reinstitute a working mail address. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 14:37:56 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA27296; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.rev.net (mail.rev.net [206.67.68.8]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA27289 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fantasy (USER97.GVA.NET [216.80.135.101]) by mail.rev.net (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id e39Lp4526373 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:51:04 -0400 Message-Id: <200004092151.e39Lp4526373@mail.rev.net> From: "Bernie Cosell" Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:51:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9 Apr 2000, at 13:04, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Laurie turned my on to this today... FYI. > > > > > > Autoresponding with the appropriate addresses (as long as they in turn are > read) is compliant, though maybe not in the way you might prefer. I don't think so. A far as I know, RFC 822 is still the governing RFC for email, and it states: > 6.3. RESERVED ADDRESS > > It often is necessary to send mail to a site, without know- > ing any of its valid addresses. For example, there may be mail > system dysfunctions, or a user may wish to find out a person's > correct address, at that site. > > This standard specifies a single, reserved mailbox address > (local-part) which is to be valid at each site. Mail sent to > that address is to be routed to a person responsible for the > site's mail system or to a person with responsibility for general > site operation ... I"m afraid that to my reading autoresponding with random other addresses and 'rules' doesn't comply with "mail sent to that address is to be routed..." [unless, by bouncing back to ME they're implying that *I'm* somehow responsible for AOL's mail system.. :o)] /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 15:11:14 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA27524; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id OAA27517 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 14:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13190 ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:17:10 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> References: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:13:09 -0700 To: mcb@postmodern.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:09 PM -0700 4/9/2000, Michael C. Berch wrote: >So I >would urge everyone to use that route as well, and explain the reasoning >on each phone call. > >If this happens I wonder how long it will take for them to reinstitute a >working mail address. they'll just route it to voice mail, and deal with it as they get to it... After all, if it's their proble, they already know if. If it's your problem, they can deal with it on their schedule, or not. Me, I'm trying to decide how to deal with this. I've always had good results with AOL problems. If that's going to stop, I"m going to have to treat their accounts differently. Im' not ready yet to lump them in with juno, but right now, hotmail handles things better than they do, and if I were AOL, I wouldn't be too proud about that. Assuming they care. Which I doubt. -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 16:40:02 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA28948; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA28941 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e39MuGC29061 Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:56:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: "Michael C. Berch" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem In-Reply-To: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Michael C. Berch wrote: > The specific problem I had a week or so ago was that the autoresponder > responded with, not an email address, but a pointer to a FAQ, and the > FAQ (which had obviously not been updated) told people to send mail to > the postmaster/abuse address. Endless loop. That is certainly noncompliant. Agreed. > The FAQ also made reference to telephoning the NOC in certain > circumstances, and that would constitute compliance, to my thinking. > If this happens I wonder how long it will take for them to reinstitute a > working mail address. Or disconnect their phones. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 16:55:02 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA28767; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [216.240.39.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA28759 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from postmodern.com (foucault.postmodern.com [216.240.39.5]) by server.postmodern.com (8.8.5/mcb-980201) with ESMTP id PAA16171; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 15:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38F1059E.2FE9FEB4@postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 15:35:54 -0700 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: Postmodern Consulting, California USA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > At 2:09 PM -0700 4/9/2000, Michael C. Berch wrote: > >So I would urge everyone to use that route as well, and explain > >the reasoning on each phone call. > > > >If this happens I wonder how long it will take for them to reinstitute a > >working mail address. > > they'll just route it to voice mail, and deal with it as they get to it... > > > After all, if it's their problem, they already know it. [...] In an operation as large (and possibly still heterogeneous) as AOL, there is significant doubt about the latter. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 17:45:58 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA29921; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA29908 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.243.156.212] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id TAA29096 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:51:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004100051.TAA29096@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:52:59 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4/9/00 5:13 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >Me, I'm trying to decide how to deal with this. I've always had good >results with AOL problems. If that's going to stop, I"m going to have >to treat their accounts differently. It's this simple: the people you're used to having good dealings with were also often the ones handling Internet abuse. They cost too much for AOL to give them the support they deserve. So AOL moved a lot of the abuse handling to member services, so that the technical people can stick to doing technical stuff. This shouldn't cause any problems for you, once you get around AOL's roadblocks. The good people are still there, they're just a little more shielded from having to deal with the public. The email address changes were a minor part of a big change meant to improve things (in the overall effort to avoid spending money). -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 18:00:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id RAA29922; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id RAA29906 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.243.156.212] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id TAA29085 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:51:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004100051.TAA29085@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:52:58 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4/9/00 3:30 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >At 1:04 PM -0700 4/9/2000, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > >>There are one or two bogus-to-me assumptions there, though. >> >>Bouncing mail addressed to abuse@ or postmaster@ would constitute >>non-compliance (and remember, abuse@ is still a *draft* RFC). > >Agreed. The other thing is that I'm not surprised that mail to an >AOL-internal help address bounced, since those people are supposed to >be helping AOL people. It'd be like e-mailing me at Apple to get tech >support (it won't work); that the external stuff is broken or >suboptimal doesn't magically mean the internal addresses should start >taking external mail. The hoax response given by AOL was a mistake. It is only meant for AOL members who are asking about email hoaxes, which is why the mailbox given only accepts mail from AOL addresses. This is a brand new change for AOL, and there are a lot of ruffles that need to be smoothed out. Atkins is being a reactionary by jumping all over AOL rather than being patient. >>Autoresponding with the appropriate addresses (as long as they in turn are >>read) is compliant, though maybe not in the way you might prefer. > >Yeah. As someone who's been supportive of AOL here over the years, I >have to admit I'm not thrilled here, and I tihnk they blew it. I'm not too happy with AOL's choices either, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these decisions fixed. See the lengthy threads in news.admin.net-abuse.email for more on this topic. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 19:44:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA00921; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA00914 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (gateway.squawk.com [199.74.151.119]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F00350C5; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38F14009.213B5E8@scifi.squawk.com> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 22:44:25 -0400 From: Nick Simicich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chuq Von Rospach , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > Yeah. As someone who's been supportive of AOL here over the years, I > have to admit I'm not thrilled here, and I tihnk they blew it. that > and $6.00 will get you a decent coffee at Starbucks... I usually drink a Vente Americano, iced, and it only sets me back $2-3. They don't have any $6 cups of coffee down in Florida, at least. As to AOL's new policy, well, I just hope that they are kind enough to let abuse.net know. And, frankly, I don't see this as a big degradation in either their service or their willingness to work with the community. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 20:14:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA00978; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (ikkoku.maison-otaku.net [207.195.149.217]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id TAA00971 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from godai.maison-otaku.net (godai.maison-otaku.net [216.122.4.241]) by ikkoku.maison-otaku.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0E2AF861; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (loki@localhost) by godai.maison-otaku.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA12691; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:57:33 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: godai.maison-otaku.net: loki owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:57:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeremy Blackman To: Adam Bailey Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem In-Reply-To: <200004100051.TAA29096@mail.xnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > This shouldn't cause any problems for you, once you get around AOL's > roadblocks. The good people are still there, they're just a little more > shielded from having to deal with the public. The email address changes > were a minor part of a big change meant to improve things (in the overall > effort to avoid spending money). I think some of the point is that AOL should not be throwing up those roadblocks in the first place. If they're violating RFC822 by removing the Postmaster address, then I can see where many people might view this as a deliberate attempt to distance themselves from the consequences of any actions. Something along the lines of: "Postmaster got too much mail, and took too much time/money to deal with? So, instead of fixing the problems that generated mail to Postmaster, they simply shut down the postmaster@ address, preventing anyone from being able to contact them when their service is misconfigured or being abused; because it's easier to ignore a problem when you don't have to hear about it, thus don't have to fix it or spend money looking into it." I can see where that sort of a perception would give people an even worse perception of AOL. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 20:29:43 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA01097; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dnvrpop1.dnvr.uswest.net (pop.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.3]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id TAA01090 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 19:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17862 invoked by alias); 10 Apr 2000 03:08:11 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-list-managers@GreatCircle.COM@fixme Received: (qmail 14479 invoked by uid 0); 10 Apr 2000 03:06:41 -0000 Received: from dnvr-dsl-gw9-c203.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO dimensional.com) (63.227.46.203) by dnvrpop1.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 2000 03:06:41 -0000 Message-ID: <38F14539.EFA91884@dimensional.com> Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 21:06:33 -0600 From: "Theodore M. Smith" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: <200004100051.TAA29096@mail.xnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk How do you get around the roadblocks? I've been totally unable to get any response except for an automatic one, which is totally unhelpful. And they refuse to speak to me on the telephone. What's even worse, while most ISPs will work with you in responding to a court order to find out who is trashing your site, AOL tries to force everything to go through a court in the district of their home office in Virginia. And it is difficult to join them to an action, because they take the position that a federal safe harbor provision prevents joining them. If anyone knows of a way to get through to AOL, I'd sure appreciate it. Ted Smith Denver +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Adam Bailey wrote: > On 4/9/00 5:13 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... > > >Me, I'm trying to decide how to deal with this. I've always had good > >results with AOL problems. If that's going to stop, I"m going to have > >to treat their accounts differently. > > It's this simple: the people you're used to having good dealings with > were also often the ones handling Internet abuse. They cost too much for > AOL to give them the support they deserve. So AOL moved a lot of the > abuse handling to member services, so that the technical people can stick > to doing technical stuff. > > This shouldn't cause any problems for you, once you get around AOL's > roadblocks. The good people are still there, they're just a little more > shielded from having to deal with the public. The email address changes > were a minor part of a big change meant to improve things (in the overall > effort to avoid spending money). > > -- > Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois > adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP > adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 20:44:06 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA01460; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.xnet.com (quake.xnet.com [198.147.221.67]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id UAA01446 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 20:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.243.156.212] (adamb.xnet.com [205.243.156.212]) by mail.xnet.com (8.9.3+Sun/XNet-3.0R) with SMTP id WAA03210 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:51:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004100351.WAA03210@mail.xnet.com> Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:52:40 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4/9/00 9:57 PM, Jeremy Blackman wrote... > On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > >> This shouldn't cause any problems for you, once you get around AOL's >> roadblocks. The good people are still there, they're just a little more >> shielded from having to deal with the public. The email address changes >> were a minor part of a big change meant to improve things (in the overall >> effort to avoid spending money). > > I think some of the point is that AOL should not be throwing up those > roadblocks in the first place. I agree with you, but I also don't unilaterally condemn AOL. I understand why they did it. a) their tech people get bombarded with novice questions that belong at member services b) the tech people are expensive, you just can't hire enough to handle all the Internet abuse anymore. A is excusable. AOL has gobs and gobs of members, and it's hard to funnel them all to the correct resources. B is less excusable, if understandable. Competent Internet-savvy people don't work for the same peanuts that the drones at Member Services work for. Member services people supposedly can be trained to handle Internet abuse, but they'll never be as good as the Internet people. The question is: will they be good enough? -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 21:14:03 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA01759; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA01752 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (gateway.squawk.com [199.74.151.119]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46965350C5 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38F15619.664D7F89@scifi.squawk.com> Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:18:33 -0400 From: Nick Simicich X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem References: <38F14009.213B5E8@scifi.squawk.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Nick Simicich wrote: > As to AOL's new policy, well, I just hope that they are kind enough to > let abuse.net know. To reply to my own post, abuse.net has the correct address for complaints. From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 9 21:57:41 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA02090; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id VAA02083 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15508 ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:59:55 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200004100351.WAA03210@mail.xnet.com> References: <200004100351.WAA03210@mail.xnet.com> Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 21:55:15 -0700 To: Adam Bailey From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:52 PM -0500 4/9/2000, Adam Bailey wrote: >On 4/9/00 9:57 PM, Jeremy Blackman wrote... > > On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Adam Bailey wrote: > > I think some of the point is that AOL should not be throwing up those >> roadblocks in the first place. > >I agree with you, but I also don't unilaterally condemn AOL. Agreed. In theory, Jeremy is right. In practice, theory is theory, and in practice, it doesn't always work. Sometimes, you do what you need to do, not what you'd like to do. >Competent Internet-savvy people don't work for the same >peanuts that the drones at Member Services work for. Member services >people supposedly can be trained to handle Internet abuse, but they'll >never be as good as the Internet people. The question is: will they be >good enough? A lot also comes down to how good communication and hand-off issues are taken care of. you can do a lot here, with some decent processes and documentation and hard work. -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 00:01:27 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA03056; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from castro.queernet.org (castro.queernet.org [209.157.101.253]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id XAA03049 for ; Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (rogerk@localhost) by castro.queernet.org (8.10.0.Beta6/8.10.0.Beta6) with ESMTP id e3A73QG05534 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 00:03:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" To: Bernie Cosell cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem In-Reply-To: <200004092151.e39Lp4526373@mail.rev.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 9 Apr 2000, Bernie Cosell wrote: > I"m afraid that to my reading autoresponding with random other addresses > and 'rules' doesn't comply with "mail sent to that address is to be > routed..." [unless, by bouncing back to ME they're implying that *I'm* > somehow responsible for AOL's mail system.. :o)] If this is true, then we've also discovered that 99%+ of recent Majordomo installs are non-compliant; the language for -request addresses is similar, and most people install the command processor, not a forwarder to a human, there. -- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG urgent: rogerk-page@QueerNet.ORG PO Box 14309 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 09:40:11 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA10719; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.secondary.com (ns.secondary.com [208.184.76.39]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id JAA10710 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laptop.imc.org (ip12.proper.com [165.227.249.12]) by ns.secondary.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17806 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.20000410095048.00b13630@mail.imc.org> X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:52:27 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem In-Reply-To: References: <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> <38F0F15E.6D71BCE5@postmodern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk AOL is a long-standing member of IMC. I've alerted our technical contact there, and he said he's working on it. I have no idea if this means it will be fixed immediately or in the distant future, but this is a data point that (a) they didn't know about the problem and (b) there is a chance they will fix it. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 10 12:55:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA12775; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA12768 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [207.229.172.80] (207-229-172-80.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.80]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA43709 for ; Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:06:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adamb@lull.org) Message-Id: <200004102006.PAA43709@mail.enteract.com> Subject: Re: interesting link on the AOL postmaster/abuse problem Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 15:07:22 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Adam Bailey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4/9/00 10:06 PM, Theodore M. Smith wrote... > Adam Bailey wrote: >> On 4/9/00 5:13 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote... >> >>> Me, I'm trying to decide how to deal with this. I've always had good >>> results with AOL problems. If that's going to stop, I"m going to have >>> to treat their accounts differently. >> >> It's this simple: the people you're used to having good dealings with >> were also often the ones handling Internet abuse. They cost too much for >> AOL to give them the support they deserve. So AOL moved a lot of the >> abuse handling to member services, so that the technical people can stick >> to doing technical stuff. >> >> This shouldn't cause any problems for you, once you get around AOL's >> roadblocks. The good people are still there, they're just a little more >> shielded from having to deal with the public. The email address changes >> were a minor part of a big change meant to improve things (in the overall >> effort to avoid spending money). > > How do you get around the roadblocks? I've been totally unable to get any > response except for an automatic one, which is totally unhelpful. Seems pretty complete to me, the mistakes nonwithstanding. What issue are you trying to resolve that isn't covered in the autoresponder? > And they refuse to speak to me on the telephone. What's even worse, while > most ISPs will work with you in responding to a court order to find out who > is trashing your site, AOL tries to force everything to go through a court > in the district of their home office in Virginia. And it is difficult to > join them to an action, because they take the position that a federal safe > harbor provision prevents joining them. AOL won't cooperate with you in stopping a security attack? I find that hard to believe. What department did you talk to? > If anyone knows of a way to get through to AOL, I'd sure appreciate it. Depends on what you're trying to get through to them about. -- Adam Bailey | Chicago, Illinois adamb@lull.org | Finger/Web for PGP adamkb@aol.com | http://www.lull.org/adam/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 10:25:01 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA14125; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from public.lists.apple.com (public.lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id KAA14118 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.27.198] (A17-216-27-198.apple.com [17.216.27.198]) by public.lists.apple.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA43758 ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:38:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:25:16 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: How do you handle this? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just had another one of these today, and I'm wondering how other list managers deal with it. I got a notice today that one of my subscribers had died. Obviously, they need to be removed from the list, but do you do anything beyond that? I find, for some reason, these to be disturbing in some way, even if (in this case), it's not someone I knew at all or interacted with. On the other hand, I'm not at all convinced sending back a sympathy note for someone I don't know is the right answer. Does the family really need that? They have more important things going on in life now... I still remember the first time this happened to me. Fortunately, it's fairly rare, but it's definitely a reminder that it really is people out on the other side of the virtual divide.... -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 11:52:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA15019; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA15012 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id LAA11426; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 11:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200004121859.LAA11426@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: chuqui@plaidworks.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Wed, 12 Apr 2000 10:25:16 -0700) Subject: Re: How do you handle this? Reply-to: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq, I've had a couple subscribers pass away while a member of my list. Since I run a health list, it happens. There are probably more whose mail just bounced until they got removed that way but I've had 2 or 3 letters from people informing me. Usually the informer is not family, but a workmate or ISP admin. Of course you generally don't know. So I reply as if they knew the deceased but probably aren't the primary grievers. I say: "Thank you for letting me know. I am so sorry for your loss. I have removed Jane Doe from the list as you requested." Short and to the point. No need to say more. I then will post a notice to the list. Even if the person never posted they might have had personal coorespondence with other list members. When my mom died 4 years ago I had to take care of most of her loose ends. She wasn't an internet user but I had to phone or write a bunch of people in orgs she had dealings with, in many cases to cancel subscriptions. I never knew if the person on the other end knew my mother personally. Sometimes they did and this could be hard. The standard answer strangers gave me was "I am sorry for your loss" and it works. I wouldn't want no acknowlegdement and I wouldn't want a long one either. I am calling for a purpose and since I had a lot of calls to make, short and respectful was the best bet. Unless of course they knew my mom. Another issue is if you knew the subscriber personally (had some online exchanges, etc). In that case I would ask in the return email "would you please tell me the address to send my condolenses to the family?" If the subscriber was well known on the list I would ask "would you please tell me the address to send my condolenses to the family so I can inform the other people on my mailing list?" Trust me, families and other survivors want to hear from people who knew the loved one they just lost. A sympathy card is rarely unwelcome. Just send it to the right place. I hope this helps. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 13:22:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA15889; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparta.com (dax.sparta.com [157.185.40.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA15881 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lancaster.sparta.com (lancaster.sparta.com [157.185.7.3]) by sparta.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA13211 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 16:28:38 -0400 Received: from pcbobc (pcbobc.lancaster.sparta.com [157.185.7.39]) by lancaster.sparta.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA15714 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000412132225.00a44e00@av.qnet.com> X-Sender: robertc@av.qnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 13:26:25 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Robert Comperini Subject: Re: How do you handle this? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10:25 AM 4/12/00 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >I just had another one of these today, and I'm wondering how other list >managers deal with it. Yeah, thats a toughy, for sure. I suppose if the member was active (not just a lurker) and/or if others on the list knew him, it would be nice to post a message to the list announcing the death, and a simple message to the "next of kin". I run a sport aviation related list. Once in a while a listmember dies in a crash. The last time this happened, the person's death was announced on the list (he was an active poster). For days posts poured in in remembrance of this member. Weeks later, a family member finally asked me to remove them from the list. They were very touched by all the warm posts from others over the weeks. In fact, I took those last week's worth of posts and made a little website out of them. Although this happened almsot 3 years ago now, I know the family still visits/mentions this little website to folks. So, bottom line: Up to you of course, but if its a close group of people, and if this person was known, its probably a nice thing to do. -- Robert Comperini USUA AFI #A16560 Lancaster, CA mailto:robertc@qnet.com http://www.qnet.com/~robertc From list-managers-owner Wed Apr 12 15:23:22 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA17013; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (plaidworks.com [209.239.169.200]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA17006 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [209.239.169.197] (a197.plaidworks.com [209.239.169.197] (may be forged)) by plaidworks.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22576 ; Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:42:20 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 15:38:37 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Chuq Von Rospach Subject: book recco... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to recommend a book to folks. It's called "Science Fiction Culture", by Camille Bacon-Smith, from the U of Pennsylvania Press. (isbn 0-8122-1530-3). It's available from Amazon, FWIW, or use your favorite. Camille is an ethnographer who did a study of science fiction and its people. It's a book for list managers on a couple of levels. First, there's a large part of the book that studies the on-line SF community, and there's some interesting community-building data in there to mine, both ideas for building and perspective on what makes them click. Beyond that, however, there's a lot of good information on what communities are, and why they are, things that will better help people understand how to interface the virtual world into real world populations and communities. Since the SF world adopted the virtual world and built virtual communities long before they became household worlds, it's a lot more of a mature community than you'll find elsewhere, with some nice hints on where we're headed. I should note that I know Camille through my SF work, although not well; and the material she covers, especially the on-line stuff, are things that I was a part of and was involved in to a large degree, and from my perspective, she hits many more homers and triples than singles here. I was not, however, involved in the book in any way, interviewed for it, and didn't contribute in any way. I just think it's a very nice peek into a very large, complex culture that anyone hoping to build or integrate online components into a community could use as a resource. chuq -- -- Chuq Von Rospach - Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui@plaidworks.com) Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq@apple.com) And they sit at the bar and put bread in my jar and say 'Man, what are you doing here?'" From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 03:22:36 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA09077; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from front7m.grolier.fr (front7m.grolier.fr [195.36.216.57]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA09070 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 03:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Troyes-5-232.club-internet.fr (Troyes-5-232.club-internet.fr [195.36.203.232]) by front7m.grolier.fr (8.9.3/No_Relay+No_Spam_MGC990224) with ESMTP id MAA29647 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:25:59 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:25:58 +0200 From: Monbebe Admin X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.41) Personal Organization: http://www.monbebe.net X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <9518.000414@monbebe.net> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Good new list directory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello , http://www.dolist.net/annuaire_en.asp I just discover this new list directory (small for now), but it seems to work pretty well, the information is good, the design is well, and the list subscription/update management is fair. They just need some spelling correction, but as you are surely better in english than me, you will tell them ! :-) Go there to submit right now your lists in many languages with auto-generated un/subscription forms. Best regards, -- Technical Support http://www.monbebe.net Un site pour apprendre a etre parents From list-managers-owner Fri Apr 14 07:56:40 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA13077; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id HAA13070 for ; Fri, 14 Apr 2000 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4547 invoked by uid 100); 14 Apr 2000 11:05:04 -0400 Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:05:04 -0400 (EDT) From: John R Levine To: Monbebe Admin cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Good new list directory In-Reply-To: <9518.000414@monbebe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > http://www.dolist.net/annuaire_en.asp They've been spamming like crazy to promote this site in the past day or two. I would encourage anyone who doesn't think that spam is an appropriate way to advertise to stay away. Regards, John Levine, postmaster@abuse.net, http://www.abuse.net, Trumansburg NY abuse.net postmaster From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 15 15:21:23 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id PAA02837; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id PAA02830 for ; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:14:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from swbell.net ([216.63.79.225]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0FT200L27X8E4Q@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:32:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:31:35 -0500 From: Bill Polhemus Subject: Exporting An Archive From Netscape To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <38F8EDC7.BB04D4DC@swbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. I have about 6,000 messages that I've kept over the last few years from the mailing list that I run. Until recently, I hosted this on MailingLists.Com, but as many of you probably know, they sold out to Topica.Com. I decided to start hosting the list on my own server, but I'd like to have the "old" archives handy for browsing by present and future users. Has anyone got any suggestions as to how to extract those messages to some sort of database format, without having to go file by file (6,000+ messages would take awhile!) I'm not really handy at Perl programming, but I guess I could try it out if I know both the Netscape Communicator's message base format, and that of some of the popular database formats that a mailing list manager program might use. Thanks. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 17 13:21:20 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id NAA27695; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aurinko.taivas.com (aurinko.taivas.com [193.65.127.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id NAA27688 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (tuupola@localhost) by aurinko.taivas.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23320 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:36:26 -0300 (GMT) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 23:36:25 -0300 (GMT) From: Mika Tuupola X-Sender: tuupola@aurinko.taivas.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Exporting An Archive From Netscape In-Reply-To: <38F8EDC7.BB04D4DC@swbell.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 15 Apr 2000, Bill Polhemus wrote: > know, they sold out to Topica.Com. I decided to start > hosting the list on my own server, but I'd like to have the > "old" archives handy for browsing by present and future > users. Well you could export it to mbox format by installing an imap server which stores mails in mbox format and copying the whole netscape folder there and then run hypermail (or software alike) on it. I've 'rescued' mailfolders to mbox format for a couple of times this way. -- Mika Tuupola http://www.appelsiini.net/~tuupola/ From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 18 10:06:21 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA10486; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAINE.maine.edu (maine.maine.edu [130.111.2.1]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id JAA10479 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.umpi.maine.edu [130.111.208.87] by MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP Level 310) via TCP with SMTP ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:14:30 EDT Received: from POLARIS/SpoolDir by polaris.umpi.maine.edu (Mercury 1.47); 18 Apr 00 12:09:17 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by POLARIS (Mercury 1.47); 18 Apr 00 12:08:22 -0500 Received: from albert (130.111.208.178) by polaris.umpi.maine.edu (Mercury 1.47) with ESMTP; 18 Apr 00 12:08:21 -0500 From: "Anthony J. Albert" Organization: University of Maine at PI To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 13:08:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V9 #66 Message-ID: <38FC5E45.9610.133A1DF@localhost> In-reply-to: <200004160800.BAA06408@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, the real question is what format do the messages need to be in, to offer browsing? If simple, flat text files will do, then a little bit of massaging with Perl (or other language of choice) is probably all you need. If you want to put it all into an SQL database... then you may need some more sophisticated tools. Anthony J. Albert > Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 17:31:35 -0500 > From: Bill Polhemus > Subject: Exporting An Archive From Netscape > > Hello. > > I have about 6,000 messages that I've kept over the last few > years from the mailing list that I run. Until recently, I > hosted this on MailingLists.Com, but as many of you probably > know, they sold out to Topica.Com. I decided to start > hosting the list on my own server, but I'd like to have the > "old" archives handy for browsing by present and future > users. > > Has anyone got any suggestions as to how to extract those > messages to some sort of database format, without having to > go file by file (6,000+ messages would take awhile!) > > I'm not really handy at Perl programming, but I guess I > could try it out if I know both the Netscape Communicator's > message base format, and that of some of the popular > database formats that a mailing list manager program might > use. > > Thanks. > > ------------------------------ > > End of List-Managers-Digest V9 #66 > ********************************** > > To unsubscribe from List-Managers-Digest, send the following command > in the body of a message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": > > unsubscribe list-managers-digest > > If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than the > account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, > then append that address to the command; for example, to subscribe > "local-list-managers": > > subscribe list-managers-digest local-list-managers@your.domain.net > > A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to > subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "list-managers-digest" > in the commands above with "list-managers". > > Compressed back issues are available for anonymous FTP from > FTP.GreatCircle.COM, in pub/list-managers/digest/vNN.nMMM.Z (where "NN" > is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). ============================================================== Anthony J. Albert albert@polaris.umpi.maine.edu Systems and Software Support Specialist Postmaster Computer Services - University of Maine, Presque Isle Attention: the next meeting of the Time Travellers' Society will be last Tuesday. From list-managers-owner Mon Apr 24 11:23:05 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA06729; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from roscoe.burstmedia.com ([207.159.105.131]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id LAA06722 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by roscoe.burstmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:38:07 -0400 Message-ID: From: Bob McCown To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Yahoo Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:38:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all Ive been getting some odd replies back from yahoo lately. I dont get them with ALL yahoo addresses, only some of them...any ideas? the headers arent any help. Anyone else getting these? **SNIP** This is a MIME-encapsulated message ----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ,,,,,,,,... Deferred: Connection reset by mx2.mail.yahoo.com. Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours Will keep trying until message is 5 days old **SNIP** From list-managers-owner Tue Apr 25 12:54:37 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA23774; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail44.fg.online.no (mail44-s.fg.online.no [148.122.161.44]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id MAA23767 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a2 (ti34a64-0120.dialup.online.no [130.67.75.120]) by mail44.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02397 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:05:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200004252005.WAA02397@mail44.fg.online.no> From: "Annie" Organization: Geocities To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:16:15 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V9 #69 Reply-to: nacelebs@online.no In-reply-to: <200004250800.BAA13675@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12b) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Bob, > Ive been getting some odd replies back from yahoo lately. I dont get them > with ALL yahoo addresses, only some of them...any ideas? the headers arent > any help. Anyone else getting these? I've got a yahoo address, and I've had problems with it off and on lately. My onelist/egroups account would get deactivated, and when I sent mail I got a message saying I had to reactivate it. I think the problem is this: Yahoo has had problems lately. I thought the host was inaccessible (not answering), and that's why the mail bounced. The mails usually would get through, but it would take a long time. I was hoping the problems had cleared up by now. I haven't had any problems the last couple of weeks. Hope that answers your question? Regards Annie From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 29 03:22:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA18213; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 03:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from operamail.com (OperaMail.com [199.29.68.79]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id DAA18139 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 03:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 0d8xk [206.66.213.183] (poptexas@operamail.com); Sat, 29 Apr 2000 06:30:00 -0400 X-WM-Posted-At: operamail.com; Sat, 29 Apr 00 06:30:00 -0400 From: "Alan S. Harrell" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:30:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Yahoo Message-ID: <390A7382.13204.1DC8AD@localhost> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 24 Apr 2000, at 14:38, Bob McCown wrote: > Hi all > > Ive been getting some odd replies back from yahoo lately. I dont get them > with ALL yahoo addresses, only some of them...any ideas? the headers arent > any help. Anyone else getting these? Non-fatal and deferred bounces need not be attended to by the listowner until they become repetitive (read: annoying). Your Yahoo subscribers probably received their messages from your list. Alan poptexas@operamail.com From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 29 05:37:45 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA21889; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from transport.mail-list.com (transport.mail-list.com [206.109.113.140]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id FAA21882 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 05:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ([206.109.113.127]) [206.109.113.127] by transport.mail-list.com with esmtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 12lWZj-0000D0-00; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:42:23 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 07:42:08 -0500 To: Bob McCown From: mark david mcCreary Subject: Re: Yahoo Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Hi all > >Ive been getting some odd replies back from yahoo lately. I dont get them >with ALL yahoo addresses, only some of them...any ideas? the headers arent >any help. Anyone else getting these? > I think Yahoo has been changing the number of receipents it accepts for each message downward. So it may be accepting the first x addresses of a mailing list message, and rejecting the rest. The logs of your MTA may be the best place for those sorts of clues, if any. mark From list-managers-owner Sat Apr 29 09:16:15 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA23267; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ivan.iecc.com (ivan.iecc.com [208.31.42.33]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with SMTP id IAA23258 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 08:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10148 invoked by uid 100); 29 Apr 2000 12:16:49 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:16:49 -0400 (EDT) From: John R Levine To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Yahoo In-Reply-To: <390A7382.13204.1DC8AD@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Ive been getting some odd replies back from yahoo lately. I dont get them > > with ALL yahoo addresses, only some of them...any ideas? the headers arent > > any help. Anyone else getting these? They've been having mail problems. Yahoo has about 15 incoming mail servers, one or two of which are broken. That's why some but not all mail to them fails. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Sun Apr 30 23:32:08 2000 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA11248; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) id VAA11240 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bp.ucs.usl.edu (bp.ucs.usl.edu [130.70.40.36]) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-980202-1) with ESMTP id IAA22627 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 08:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from louisiana.edu (ish.usl.edu [130.70.53.59]) by bp.ucs.usl.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/ucs-server_1.3) with ESMTP id KAA11582 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:33:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39085EBB.7771883A@louisiana.edu> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:37:31 -0500 From: Istvan Berkeley Organization: Philosophy, The University of Louisiana at Lafayette X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Remarq.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, Some time ago I noticed that Remrq.com were archiving my list. As is the case with many people, I was not happy with this. So, I sent them a cease and desist letter by snail mail, addressing it to their designated person under OCILLA. After I sent the letter, I e-mailed one of their people who had been posting here. He was good enough to have the archive of my list removed. Today however, my snail-mail letter was returned to me (I had sent it registered mail). According to the post office remarks, Remarq Communities inc. has moved, without leaving a forwarding address. Yet, this is still the address listed on their 'contact us' page even today. Please draw your own conclusions, as you feel appropriate. All the best, Istvan PHILOSOP Moderator -- Istvan S. N. Berkeley, Ph.D. Philosophy & Cognitive Science E-mail: istvan@usl.edu The University of Louisiana at Lafayette [Formerly, The University of Southwestern Louisiana] P.O. Box 43770 Tel: +1 318 482-6807 Lafayette, LA 70504-3770 Fax: +1 318 482-6195 USA http://www.ucs.usl.edu/~isb9112