From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 1 07:37:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA17334; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 07:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ma-1.rootsweb.com (ma-1.rootsweb.com [209.192.148.153]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE7C17EB9 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 07:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from twp@localhost) by ma-1.rootsweb.com (8.10.0.Beta10/8.10.0.Beta10) id f81ELrC00604; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:21:53 -0400 From: Tim Pierce To: Charlie Summers Cc: Tom Neff , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: wanted: web-based plain-text email checker Message-ID: <20010901102153.A386@ma-1.rootsweb.com> References: <2168916031.997710783@t283742ghzz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from charlie@lofcom.com on Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 03:47:34PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 13, 2001 at 03:47:34PM -0400, Charlie Summers wrote: > At 1:53 PM -0400 8/13/01, Tom Neff is rumored to have typed: > > > just one Perl process > > per inbound mail. > > With bunches of inbound mail, there are bunches of perl processes, QED. > Which, I maintain, are inefficient and at this time unnecessary. I had this problem with overhead on our machines, so I wrote a simplified version in C. I posted it to this list some time ago, but it can be found at ftp://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/unhtml.c. This only handles multipart/mixed files and extracts the text/plain portion from them, so pure text/html messages will remain untouched. Since multipart/mixed still accounts for the vast majority of HTML traffic (thank god for small favors) it works pretty well. At some point I'll write some code to do simplistic HTML rendering. > > Some of us can rail against the tide if we want, > > I'm sorry...did I "rail" against anything, Charlie, do you ever do anything else? :-) From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 3 04:37:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id EAA14519; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 04:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendmail.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47C117E8C for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 04:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-ls-9-5-1-dialup-148.freesurf.ch [194.230.245.148]) by sendmail.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20316 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f83AQ9C14702; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:26:09 +0200 Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:26:09 +0200 Message-Id: <200109031026.f83AQ9C14702@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: beststuff.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know what the normal business practices of beststuff.com are with respect to mailing lists? Do they commonly attept to do hostile take-overs of mailing lists that have some problems? (Some background information to this question: Through a complicated situation which involves many misunderstandings and also some human error on all sides, a beststuff.com representative has come to the conclusion that a decision had been made to move a certain mailing list to beststuff.com - however in truth the list-owner stronly disapproves of this "decision" - but now the beststuff.com person says "I will not be allowed by BestStuff to dismantle what has been built" and tries to put pressure on the list-owner to make him move the list to beststuff.com anyway.) Greetings, Norbert. -- A member of FreeDevelopers and the DotGNU Steering Committee: dotgnu.org Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://thinkcoach.com Your own domain with all your Mailman lists: $15/month http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 10 22:39:07 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA27530; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFF117E8B for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from b8q7201 ([64.230.76.191]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010911053011.JCNN23855.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201>; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:30:11 -0400 X-Sender: sharonlh@go.listdelivery.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:27:47 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Sharon Tucci Subject: Commtouch/Prontomail problems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: <20010911053011.JCNN23855.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@b8q7201> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We're having a heck of a time with mailloops from commtouch accounts (all from prontomail hostnames). This has been going on now for about 2-3 weeks that I've noticed, but the problem seems to be escalating for some reason. What I can best gather is that when an account is cancelled, closed or the mailbox is full, prontomail.com returns a bounced message that ends up getting into a loop with our list server because it is returned from an invalid address. (i.e. mailadmin@lettera.com, mailadmin@sonicnetmail.com and mailadmin@yupimail.com are the ones I'm coming across most frequently, but there are others such as mailadmin@pagefrance.com) I've put in blocks against these addresses, but not sure whether or not this is such a good idea. Unfortunately, all my attempts to look at a bounce from their service has failed. (I've tried making up obviously unused email addresses) Putting a block DOES abruptly put an end to the loop, but I'm not sure whether legitimate email ever comes from that address or not. Have any of you had to deal with this as well? If so, what have you done? Any of you try contacting them? Sharon Tucci From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 11 23:35:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id XAA10213; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:20:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (dsl081-078-180.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D610817EBE for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.189] (dsl081-078-189.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.189]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8C6JLc28167 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:19:21 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 23:19:28 -0700 Subject: Warning about formmail.pl From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not strictly speaking on topic, but pretty close. Just found this one the hard way. If you're a web master running a site that uses the formmail.pl script from Matt's Script Archive, you're probably running version 1.6. Be aware that script has a security flaw that allows it to be used to relay spam through your site. You need to upgrade to version 1.9 immediately. Disable the current version until you do. I found this by accident because I was working on sendmail, and suddenly saw weird stuff in the logs. If you aren't paying really close attention, you won't notice. But if you're running a version of formmail.pl 1.8 or before, you're a spam relay. And much to my dismay, they obviously are doing automated scans of sites looking for copies to use. Needless to say, my copy is disabled until I get this sucker fixed. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. You know, I Remember When I Used To Speak In Capitals, Too. It's addictive. It also encourages people to poke sticks at you. Justifiably. (chuq, 1992) From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 15 02:36:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA08385; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendmail.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEB417ED3 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-24-2-dialup-87.freesurf.ch [194.230.206.87]) by sendmail.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA14601; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 05:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f8F9LXq30745; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:21:33 +0200 Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:21:33 +0200 Message-Id: <200109150921.f8F9LXq30745@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, mailman-users@python.org Subject: you can move terrorism-related discussions off to this list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There have been problems with terrorism-related discussions on multiple mailing lists... (I do not consider it a problem when some people express compassion, but there is a problem when then others respond with anti-American remarks that are very unappropriate to the situation, and a flame war develops out of that.) The best response IMHO is to moderate the affected lists for a while _and_ move the compassionate discussions to a separate mailing list. I have created a list for this purpose, see http://stop-terror.net/ BTW if someone is interested in serving as list-owner/moderator for that list.... I'm willing to run this list, but if someone is interested in taking it over, that'd be even better :-) Greetings, Norbert. -- A member of FreeDevelopers and the DotGNU Steering Committee: dotgnu.org Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://thinkcoach.com Your own domain with all your Mailman lists: $15/month http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner Sat Sep 15 11:48:45 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA15880; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1197517EB1 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MICHJ0-ME (evrtwa1-ar7-003-187.vz.dsl.gtei.net [4.61.3.187]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25774; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:40:30 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Michael S. Johnson" To: Norbert Bollow Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: you can move terrorism-related discussions off to this list In-Reply-To: <200109150921.f8F9LXq30745@quill.local> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: michj@mail.eskimo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Norbert Bollow wrote: > I have created a list for this purpose, see http://stop-terror.net/ Norbert, thank you very much for creating this resource to relieve the emotional pressure building on other mailing lists. -- Michael S. Johnson Miyazaki Web and Mailing List Owner michj@nausicaa.net www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/mailing-list From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 16 02:10:21 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA25447; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 01:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xrx-inc.com (mail.xrx-inc.com [12.13.116.226]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE6F17EAE for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 01:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from timothy@localhost) by xrx-inc.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f8G8oXk09418; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:50:33 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from timothy) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:50:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Tim the Unix Hack Message-Id: <200109160850.f8G8oXk09418@xrx-inc.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V10 #142 References: <200109160800.BAA23915@honor.greatcircle.com> In-Reply-To: <200109160800.BAA23915@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Loop: auto Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This email address is being changed to: consultant@xrx-inc.com This email HAS been sent through and received. This is an auto-reponse that is providing you info to update your address book. Expect that sometime in the near future that emails will only be accepted when using consultant@xrx-inc.com Postmaster@xrx-inc.com From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 16 10:55:18 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id KAA02172; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621C917EBF for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hppav ([12.79.192.122]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP id <20010916174124.FPQZ26461.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@hppav> for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:41:24 +0000 Message-ID: <001301c13ed6$c0be3960$7ac04f0c@hppav> From: "larry lunt" To: "List-OwnerPost" Subject: WhatToDo? Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:40:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I currently run three majordomo lists with approx. 400 total members. I am very happy with my current server imagicom. I'm not looking to switch but I have seen list serves go under. I don't want to be be left out in the cold if my server should go under. So My question is this. If my server folded today where could I go to get a majordomo list? Larry Lunt From list-managers-owner Sun Sep 16 12:55:18 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA03342; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendmail.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E5117EB7 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-21-1-dialup-57.freesurf.ch [194.230.180.57]) by sendmail.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23188 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f8GJdUM06492; Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:39:30 +0200 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 21:39:30 +0200 Message-Id: <200109161939.f8GJdUM06492@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <001301c13ed6$c0be3960$7ac04f0c@hppav> (llunt@worldnet.att.net) Subject: Re: WhatToDo? References: <001301c13ed6$c0be3960$7ac04f0c@hppav> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I currently run three majordomo lists with approx. 400 total members. I am > very happy with my current server imagicom. I'm not looking to switch but I > have seen list serves go under. I don't want to be be left out in the cold > if my server should go under. So My question is this. If my server folded > today where could I go to get a majordomo list? I'd try to talk you into at least trying Mailman, but if you really want Majordomo, I'm willing to host lists with Majordomo, under terms that are similar to my offerings for Mailman lists. For details see http://cisto.com Greetings, Norbert. -- A member of FreeDevelopers and the DotGNU Steering Committee: dotgnu.org Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://thinkcoach.com Your own domain with all your Mailman lists: $15/month http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 17 01:55:39 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA11718; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xrx-inc.com (mail.xrx-inc.com [12.13.116.226]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF3617E8B for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 01:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from timothy@localhost) by xrx-inc.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f8H8iMu23663; Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:44:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from timothy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:44:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Tim the Unix Hack Message-Id: <200109170844.f8H8iMu23663@xrx-inc.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V10 #143 References: <200109170800.BAA10308@honor.greatcircle.com> In-Reply-To: <200109170800.BAA10308@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Loop: auto Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This email address is being changed to: consultant@xrx-inc.com This email HAS been sent through and received. This is an auto-reponse that is providing you info to update your address book. Expect that sometime in the near future that emails will only be accepted when using consultant@xrx-inc.com Postmaster@xrx-inc.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 18 01:49:23 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA00386; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xrx-inc.com (mail.xrx-inc.com [12.13.116.226]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C269C17EBD for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from timothy@localhost) by xrx-inc.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) id f8I8kQl44160; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:46:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from timothy) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:46:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Tim the Unix Hack Message-Id: <200109180846.f8I8kQl44160@xrx-inc.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V10 #144 References: <200109180800.BAA28780@honor.greatcircle.com> In-Reply-To: <200109180800.BAA28780@honor.greatcircle.com> X-Loop: auto Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This email address is being changed to: consultant@xrx-inc.com This email HAS been sent through and received. This is an auto-reponse that is providing you info to update your address book. Expect that sometime in the near future that emails will only be accepted when using consultant@xrx-inc.com Postmaster@xrx-inc.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 18 03:39:23 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id DAA02979; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendmail.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6C017EBD for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 03:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-ls-10-1-2-dialup-207.freesurf.ch [194.230.25.207]) by sendmail.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07192; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f8IA1u718407; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200 Message-Id: <200109181001.f8IA1u718407@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: usoffice@cisto.com, jlopez@southamericanfiesta.com Subject: NEED: software for compressing JPG images Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a potential customer who will send out lots of JPG images via his (pretty big) mailing list. I'm trying to talk him into first making those JPGs as small as possible (within the constraints of what image degradation will be acceptable for him). He has Photoshop. Are there any programs out there which do a better job in compressing photo JPGs than Photoshop does? Greetings, Norbert. -- A member of FreeDevelopers and the DotGNU Steering Committee: dotgnu.org Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://thinkcoach.com Your own domain with all your Mailman lists: $15/month http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 18 05:39:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA04724; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 05:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DAA617EBD for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 05:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from veld.com (pool-63.49.87.47.tmpa.grid.net [63.49.87.47]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA05915 for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 05:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3BA73DFD.718BF2AC@veld.com> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:28:45 -0400 From: Philip Busey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [Fwd: NEED: software for compressing JPG images] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Norbert, I prefer Ignite by Fluffy Clouds Ltd. http://www.ignite-it.co.uk/ It compresses at the same time as reduces resolution, which I believe more efficiently uses all the pixel information (compared with first reducing resolution and then compressing). The "suggested" settings will generally give a lower quality than is acceptable, but like FireWorks and SmartSaver, which are also good programs, you have a sliding scale of compression levels and the chance to review a draft before going all the way. PhotoShop does not or did not do that, at least through version 5.0, in which I always select quality level zero for web optimization. Any image compression scheme can be used more effectively by doing some careful testing as well as preparing the base images for maximum compressibility, possibly even reducing contrast. With PhotoShop, I first impart a slight gaussian blur to the image, 0.4 pixels or slightly more. Needless to say, any noise or dust should first be cleaned up. Blur is also one of several options that you can choose to invoke in Ignite, along with disproportionate emphasis on the brighter areas, etc., but the options do not usually make for more efficient optimization. Except the choice of an compression algorithm can make a worthwile difference in compressibility. JPG is certainly the most robust of compression schemes, but there are many tonal images which have large monochromatic areas that actually compress best with GIF. There have been contests on the best optimization of GIF images, which is more scientific. The right GIF compression scheme (preplanning and the choice of the right software) can make a huge difference in efficience. But for JPEG optimization it is more like, "you get what you pay for," the lower the bandwidth, the lower the quality. So, you may also want to recommend a program to your client that does the best job of batch optimization. And for this, either Ignite or Ulead SuperSaver will work. There is also GifWizard, an online service for which you buy tokens, but they've gotten more clunky as they add more features. Even if your client is going to finish with small thumbnails, it is still better to start with high resolution images, as explained here: http://earthfire.com/designs/scanning.html Phil -------- Original Message -------- Subject: NEED: software for compressing JPG images Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200 From: Norbert Bollow To: list-managers@greatcircle.com I have a potential customer who will send out lots of JPG images via his (pretty big) mailing list. I'm trying to talk him into first making those JPGs as small as possible (within the constraints of what image degradation will be acceptable for him). He has Photoshop. Are there any programs out there which do a better job in compressing photo JPGs than Photoshop does? Greetings, Norbert. From list-managers-owner Tue Sep 18 09:09:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA07388; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857A917EBD for ; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.188] (dsl081-078-188.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.188]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8IFtmc31743; Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:55:48 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:55:49 -0700 Subject: Re: NEED: software for compressing JPG images From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Norbert Bollow , Cc: , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200109181001.f8IA1u718407@quill.local> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/18/01 3:01 AM, "Norbert Bollow" wrote: > I have a potential customer who will send out lots of JPG images > via his (pretty big) mailing list. Life will be much happier for him if he can be convinced to put them on a web site and link to them. There are many sites now that block mail with attachments, especially corporate firewalls. It'll also be easier on the network bandwidth, and from my testing on these issues, less likely to have compatibility issues. We do this both ways -- I tell all my internal customers that'll listen not to enclose stuff if you can help it. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome [ = = ] Yes, yes, I've finally finished my home page. Lucky you. I tried to get a life once, but they were out of stock. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 19 00:34:23 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id AAA18111; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (unknown [198.144.204.210]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D3D17E8B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.31 #1 (Debian)) id 15jbeT-0003wR-00; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:20:09 -0700 To: Norbert Bollow Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, usoffice@cisto.com, jlopez@southamericanfiesta.com Subject: Re: NEED: software for compressing JPG images In-Reply-To: Message from Norbert Bollow of "Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200." <200109181001.f8IA1u718407@quill.local> References: <200109181001.f8IA1u718407@quill.local> X-message-flag: Are you sure that Microsoft Outlook is good enough for you to use? X-Accepted-File-Formats: text/plain preferred, Postscript and PDF accepted - *NO* Micosoft Office files please. X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:20:09 -0700 Message-ID: <15154.1000884009@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200 Norbert Bollow wrote: > Are there any programs out there which do a better job in > compressing photo JPGs than Photoshop does? I can't comment well on that in particular (I don't know), but on a more general note I'd recommend he look at PNG instead of JPEG. They're smaller and generally of better image quality for the smaller size. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 19 05:35:46 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA24651; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from franklin.unet.maine.edu (franklin.unet.maine.edu [130.111.39.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7926517E8B for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from polaris.umpi.maine.edu (polaris.umpi.maine.edu [130.111.208.87]) by franklin.unet.maine.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f8JCWff03623 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:32:41 -0400 Received: from POLARIS/SpoolDir by polaris.umpi.maine.edu (Mercury 1.48); 19 Sep 01 08:30:56 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by POLARIS (Mercury 1.48); 19 Sep 01 08:30:31 -0500 Received: from albert (130.111.208.178) by polaris.umpi.maine.edu (Mercury 1.48) with ESMTP; 19 Sep 01 08:30:19 -0500 From: "Anthony J. Albert" Organization: University of Maine at PI To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:30:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: NEED: software for compressing JPG images Message-ID: <3BA85799.9211.1A4D22@localhost> In-reply-to: <200109190800.BAA18576@honor.greatcircle.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 19 Sep 2001, at 1:00, List-Managers-Digest wrote: >Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:01:56 +0200 >From: Norbert Bollow >Subject: NEED: software for compressing JPG images > >I have a potential customer who will send out lots of JPG images >via his (pretty big) mailing list. I'm trying to talk him into >first making those JPGs as small as possible (within the >constraints of what image degradation will be acceptable for >him). He has Photoshop. > >Are there any programs out there which do a better job in >compressing photo JPGs than Photoshop does? > >Greetings, Norbert. Dear Norbert, Please tell your client that he is much better off sending the email out with a URL to a web server with the picture. This not only reduces the bandwidth used (since not everyone will be interested in seeing the picture), but also is more likely to make it through corporate firewalls, as noted in another reply. Additionally, sending a URL is a lot less likely to overflow mailboxes (like Hotmail's measly 2MB) or cause dial-up users fits (still a lot of dial-up users out here) by causing huge downloads, just to display one simple email. I myself stopped subscribing to MP3.com's newsletter, because it usually consisted of lots of complicated graphics, which took forever to download, and used up too much of my mailbox space. That said, I'm favorably impressed by Microsoft Photo Editor, which is included with the MS Office suite. It's simple, quick, and has an adjustable JPEG quality setting, from 0 to 100%. Image quality after compression seems to be decent, for reasonable quality settings (60- 80%). I also encourage trying to convert the pictures to .GIF as well, to see how it compares. For monochrome or 256-color images, .GIF will frequently produce a smaller file than .JPG, in my experience. But it varies greatly, depending on the picture content. Sincerely, Anthony J. Albert =========================================================== Anthony J. Albert albert@umpi.maine.edu Systems and Software Support Specialist Postmaster Computer Services - University of Maine, Presque Isle "Civilization is just a slow process of learning to be kind." - Charles L. Lucas From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 20 01:39:41 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA11403; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix, from userid 1013) id A360517EDA; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 01:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thunderer.cnchost.com (thunderer.concentric.net [207.155.252.72]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F3B17EB2 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (c1503859-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.5.22.231]) by thunderer.cnchost.com id MAA17183; Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:41:53 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 -0700 To: list-managers From: JC Dill Subject: approving posts - policy decisions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have recently taken on shared admin responsibilities for an open source software product's "user's list". The list's owner (the major author of the open-source software in question) has only recently agreed to put the list into "posting restricted to sub$cribers only, all other posts are sent to moderators for approval", and only made this change as a result of numerous complaints when the list started receiving a lot of spam. When reviewing the posts that were sent by non-sub$cribers (people who get the list submission address from the software's website and IMHO don't read enough of the website to see that they really should sub$cribe to the list and then utilize their sub$cription to learn more about the software), I find that many (perhaps even most) of these posts don't have any value *to the list's present sub$cribers*. I tend to be a strong advocate for list sub$cribers and feel that the list should be of more value to those who are on it day in and day out and that letting non-sub$cribers post FAQs etc. hurts those who *contribute* most to the list by being sub$cribers. Since the moderated non-sub$criber post policy is new, I haven't yet approached the list owner about considering a further change in policy. Apparently another admin has a policy that as long as a post isn't outright spam (is, in some way, about the software in question), it should be approved and sent on to the list. So when I defer making a decision regarding the posts that I have questions about, I see that they get approved and sent on shortly afterwards. So... several questions for this list: A) How important is it that a "software user's list" accept and distribute all posts (including posts from non-sub$cribers) that are remotely "on-topic" and about the software in question? B) Is it reasonable to expect/require the software's users sub$cribe to the list and to read a FAQ before accepting their posts? (To no longer approve non-member posts and strictly limit posting to sub$cribers, and to include the FAQ (or a pointer to a URL that contains the FAQ and a strongly worded suggestion that they read it before postin) in the welcome message.) C) Is it reasonable to expect the admins to answer *some* of the non-member posts outright, rather than forwarding the post to the list (to be distributed to several hundred sub$cribers, and then not answered, and then be asked again)? I believe a simple solution is for the admin to reject the post with an reply to the sender on why it's inappropriate, or supplying the FAQ url where the answer lies, or just answering the question ("no, you can't do that") when this can be done with a minimum of effort. I'd like to hear what other list managers think about this before I approach the list owner on the matter. If people think I'm nuts, I may stay silent or just request that I be removed from the shared admin duties. If people think I have a valid point on some of these items, but not on others, I'll take that into consideration when I make my comments to the owner, etc. Thanks! jc p.s. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that I had to munge sub$criber (a total of 15 times) to get this post sent on to a list where the main topic of discussion is mailing list management and thus sub$criber is a common word? I really think this list doesn't need a bozo filter to sideline posts to "unsub$cribe me" nearly as much as it needs to process valid messages about mailing list management issues. I initially sent this post 3 weeks ago, (twice), and the list owner apparently never bothered to look at the post that was sent on to the owner instead of to the list. IMHO, if you aren't going to approve on-topic posts that your software yanks because it *might* be an administrative request, you shouldn't be yanking them in the first place (or perhaps you need better software that can tell the difference between a listserver request and a discussion post). jc From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 20 05:57:24 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id FAA16910; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 05:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [160.91.20.105]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BC28E17EDA for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 05:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25739 invoked by uid 3995); 20 Sep 2001 12:43:10 -0000 From: "Dave Sill" Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15273.58462.435850.756360@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:43:10 -0400 To: list-managers Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.92 under 21.4 (patch 3) "Academic Rigor" XEmacs Lucid Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: >A) How important is it that a "software user's list" accept and distribute >all posts (including posts from non-sub$cribers) that are remotely >"on-topic" and about the software in question? That depends upon the list. For a new list, those are reasonable restrictions. To impose them on an established list is another matter. I'd only do it with the consent of the list determined by a vote. >B) Is it reasonable to expect/require the software's users sub$cribe to >the list and to read a FAQ before accepting their posts? (To no longer >approve non-member posts and strictly limit posting to sub$cribers, and to >include the FAQ (or a pointer to a URL that contains the FAQ and a strongly >worded suggestion that they read it before postin) in the welcome message.) You can cram the FAQ down people's throats, but it won't do any good. I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just don't expect FAQs to miraculously go away. Limiting submissions to svbscribers is an easy way to cut down on spam, but it doesn't prevent all spam, and it does block useful messages from nonsvbscribers. None of my lists require membership for posting. I personally find it inconvenient because I subscribe to lists using list-specific addresses, and I'd prefer to post to lists using my main address so direct replies won't be filed in the list mailbox. This list is a case in point. >C) Is it reasonable to expect the admins to answer *some* of the >non-member posts outright, rather than forwarding the post to the list (to >be distributed to several hundred sub$cribers, and then not answered, and >then be asked again)? It's not reasonable to impose additional work on volunteer admins after they've agreed to do an easier job. At least give them an opportunity to bow out gracefully. >I believe a simple solution is for the admin to >reject the post with an reply to the sender on why it's inappropriate, or >supplying the FAQ url where the answer lies, or just answering the question >("no, you can't do that") when this can be done with a minimum of effort. Sure, that's fine if your admins are willing to do that. >p.s. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that I had to munge sub$criber (a >total of 15 times) to get this post sent on to a list where the main topic >of discussion is mailing list management and thus sub$criber is a common >word? Yes, I've complained about that in past. -Dave From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 20 07:56:18 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id HAA18473; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pop2b.ripco.com (pop2b.ripco.com [209.100.227.27]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556B317EE0 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from burrow (cpe-66-1-8-251.il.sprintbbd.net [66.1.8.251]) by pop2b.ripco.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f8KEmHi07578 for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:48:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <004201c141e3$3e91aac0$fb080142@cpe6618251.il.sprintbbd.net> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "list-managers" References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <15273.58462.435850.756360@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:40:45 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Sill wrote, | Limiting submissions to svbscribers is an easy way to cut down on | spam, but it doesn't prevent all spam, and it does block useful | messages from nonsvbscribers. None of my lists require membership for | posting. I personally find it inconvenient because I [belong] to | lists using list-specific addresses, and I'd prefer to post to lists | using my main address so direct replies won't be filed in the list | mailbox. This list is a case in point. That is why many list packages allow a person to have one or more post-only aliases. There is one list to which I have two svbscriptions, one of which is permanently in vacation mode, because it doesn't support post-only addresses; there is another where I have two active svbscriptions and receive two copies of every article because it supports neither post-only addresses nor vacation mode, so that is my only way to have posting privileges from two places. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 21 01:24:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA00388; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix, from userid 1013) id 8423517ECA; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 01:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dozer.liquidweb.com (unknown [216.74.111.64]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AEA817EDF for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 07:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scadian by dozer.liquidweb.com with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15k4rj-0003M0-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:31:47 -0400 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 10:31:47 -0400 From: jtrigg@huiekin.org To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions Message-ID: <20010920103147.B10522@scadian.net> Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> <15273.58462.435850.756360@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <15273.58462.435850.756360@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov>; from de5-list-managers@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov on Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 08:43:10AM -0400 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - dozer.liquidweb.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - greatcircle.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [32028 529] / [32028 529] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - dozer.liquidweb.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 08:43:10AM -0400, Dave Sill wrote: > Limiting submissions to svbscribers is an easy way to cut down on > spam, but it doesn't prevent all spam, and it does block useful > messages from nonsvbscribers. None of my lists require membership for > posting. I personally find it inconvenient because I subscribe to > lists using list-specific addresses, and I'd prefer to post to lists > using my main address so direct replies won't be filed in the list > mailbox. This list is a case in point. My solution to that is to have a list of approved posters. In Mailman, that's svbscribed addresses set to NOMAIL; in MajorDomo, it's a second list that is never posted to and is listed in the set of approved addresses. Those are the only two list management packages I use. Jim -- Jim Trigg /"\ Hostmaster \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN Academy of S. Gabriel X HELP CURE HTML MAIL Huie Kin Family website / \ From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 21 02:27:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA02359; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (unknown [198.144.204.210]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A706317ECA for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (kanga.nu) [127.0.0.1] by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.31 #1 (Debian)) id 15kMJQ-0004Io-00; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:09:32 -0700 To: JC Dill Cc: list-managers Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions In-Reply-To: Message from JC Dill of "Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 PDT." <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-message-flag: Are you sure that Microsoft Outlook is good enough for you to use? X-Accepted-File-Formats: text/plain preferred, Postscript and PDF accepted - *NO* Micosoft Office files please. X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:09:32 -0700 Message-ID: <16541.1001063372@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 -0700 JC Dill wrote: > I have recently taken on shared admin responsibilities for an open > source software product's "user's list". I would have no idea which list that is now, would I? Note that other subscribers to the subject list(s) are also here (you'll likely guess who). > A) How important is it that a "software user's list" accept and > distribute all posts (including posts from non-sub$cribers) that > are remotely "on-topic" and about the software in question? There are common conflicting arguments on this one. I'd suggest that that's a wise course for the -users list as it promote community and direct access to the user base (who are often not well clued). For -developers I'd suggest a harder line, with a fair bit of pushback on threads to move to -users (fairly easy to do from a certain moderation interface we both know -- just reject with a "-users" comment and send a copy to the other list. > B) Is it reasonable to expect/require the software's users > sub$cribe to the list and to read a FAQ before accepting their > posts? Resonable? Absolutely. Likely to happen ebfore the universe collapses into a great black hole and entropy finally reaches its ultimate terminus: No. > (To no longer approve non-member posts and strictly limit posting > to sub$cribers, and to include the FAQ (or a pointer to a URL that > contains the FAQ and a strongly worded suggestion that they read > it before postin) in the welcome message.) For those questions which are __strictyl__ FAQs, without question, I'd be mildly tempted to reject with a comment of "Please read the FAQ". > C) Is it reasonable to expect the admins to answer *some* of the > non-member posts outright, rather than forwarding the post to the > list (to be distributed to several hundred sub$cribers, and then > not answered, and then be asked again)? Yes. I've used the rejection field for precisely this purpose. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 21 12:08:47 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA13654; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shell7.ba.best.com (shell7.ba.best.com [206.184.139.138]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783EB17EB5 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by shell7.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id LAA08612; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <200109211851.LAA08612@shell7.ba.best.com> From: Cyndi Norman To: inet-list@vo.cnchost.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@best.com In-reply-to: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> (message from JC Dill on Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 -0700) Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions Reply-To: cnorman@best.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 -0700 From: JC Dill These are good questions but the answers depend greatly on the list itself. What is vital for one list can be inappropriate for another. A) How important is it that a "software user's list" accept and distribute all posts (including posts from non-sub$cribers) that are remotely "on-topic" and about the software in question? Depends on the kind of list you want to run. Is it a discussion list or an information sharing list? The former allows more posts than the latter. And why are nonsubs wanting to post? If their reasons are legit, you will be more likely to want their posts. I run health lists. My main one, Immune, allows and even encourages posts from nonsubs. Some people have a specific question but don't have the time or inclination to join the list. Others are activists in the areas the list covers and they (with my okay) cc the list on posts describing their activities. Friday is ad day on my list but only subs are allowed to post ads (and there are various restrictions). I also would not want a nonsub to become involved in a protracted discussion without joining. OTOH, I don't always know who is a sub and who isn't. The list is moderated and all posts come to me for approval. We get the occasional crossposted thread (there is one list we work closely with) so it can get confusing. Another list I run is a close discussion/support group and I would not allow nonsub posts unless it was from a previous sub who was posting an update on how they are. If I want certain info to go to that group, I forward it under my name, with appropriate credits. B) Is it reasonable to expect/require the software's users sub$cribe to the list and to read a FAQ before accepting their posts? Reasonable? yes. It's also reasonable to expect (or even require) that all list members are respectful to each other and avoid personal attacks. But if you aren't prepared for the fact that it won't happen all the time, you'll be in for a long haul. C) Is it reasonable to expect the admins to answer *some* of the non-member posts outright, rather than forwarding the post to the list (to be distributed to several hundred sub$cribers, and then not answered, and then be asked again)? Depends on the list. I get tons of personal mail asking questions. I sometimes answer them, I sometimes answer them partially, and I sometimes don't answer them and ask people to post them on the list. If the question is posted others can benefit from not only my answer but other people's. It saves me time because sometimes I don't have to answer at all and even if I do, I don't have to answer it as often if it's posted. Depends on your goals and on the question. "Where can I download xyz software?" is probably a question you want to avoid people posting because it's in the FAQ (the FAQ is posted regularly to the list, I assume?). I believe a simple solution is for the admin to reject the post with an reply to the sender on why it's inappropriate, or supplying the FAQ url where the answer lies, or just answering the question ("no, you can't do that") when this can be done with a minimum of effort. If it works for you and your list, sure. p.s. Is anyone else bothered by the fact that I had to munge sub$criber (a total of 15 times) to get this post sent on to a list where the main topic of discussion is mailing list management and thus sub$criber is a common word? This drives me crazy too. But I'm not Michael and I don't know what the noise to signal ratio on this is. Cyndi -- _______________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cyndi@consultclarity.com http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ From list-managers-owner Fri Sep 21 16:36:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id QAA16954; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vyger.net (vyger.net [209.98.47.196]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8037D17ECA for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from skyking.mnwg.cap.gov (skyking.vyger.net [209.98.47.217]) by vyger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28DFCD4EE for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:28:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: MIME Type Problem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:28:08 -0500 Message-ID: <4D60A2C2EA6855449E9976AAFEF8669901B28C@skyking.mnwg.cap.gov> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4712.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Thread-Topic: MIME Type Problem Thread-Index: AcFC9RPtQNEQgBGDRMSbr43dag5lMA== From: "Greg Blakely" To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have noticed that, with Majordomo 1.94, if someone posts with a MIME type of utf-8, all I get are random characters in the message. Is there a configuration option that I missed? Or perhaps a patch? Thanks. From list-managers-owner Mon Sep 24 22:05:43 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA13555; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from glatton.cnchost.com (unknown [207.155.248.47]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44CA617EBD for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Erwin.vo.cnchost.com (adsl-208-201-241-212.sonic.net [208.201.241.212]) by glatton.cnchost.com id AAA20524; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 00:51:20 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.2.20010924214046.03bf0e30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> X-Sender: inet-list%vo.cnchost.com@pop3.vo.cnchost.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 21:48:30 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: JC Dill Subject: Re: approving posts - policy decisions In-Reply-To: <200109211851.LAA08612@shell7.ba.best.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919092641.039f7a30@pop3.vo.cnchost.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 11:51 AM 9/21/01, Cyndi Norman wrote: > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:42:02 -0700 > From: JC Dill > A) How important is it that a "software user's list" accept and distribute > all posts (including posts from non-sub$cribers) that are remotely > "on-topic" and about the software in question? > >Depends on the kind of list you want to run. Is it a discussion list or an >information sharing list? The former allows more posts than the latter. >And why are nonsubs wanting to post? If their reasons are legit, you will >be more likely to want their posts. Good points. On the list in question, the non-subs questions are IMHO primarily of interest to the non-sub who posts said question, and are often annoying FAQs to the list svbscribers. That's why I was motivated to ask this list for guidance and opinions. I believe (rather strongly) that they should be required to sub before posting, primarily so we get one more crack at saying "RTFM (and readme, and list FAQ) before posting to avoid being flamed for posting yet another annoying FAQ". But I also feel that it's rather rude to post to a list you don't read. It's tantamount to posting to a usenet discussion group and then saying "I don't read/follow this group, so please email your reply". > "Where can I download xyz software?" is >probably a question you want to avoid people posting because it's in the >FAQ (the FAQ is posted regularly to the list, I assume?). Actually, no it's not. The list is very unmanaged. For the most part, it self-manages pretty well, but I feel it would stay more on-topic *for the svbscribers* if non-sub were more stringently managed. The FAQ is also a bit lacking, there are quite a few recently frequently asked questions that aren't covered. Oh, the joys of trying to get people to adequately and thoroughly document an open source software product/project. :-) jc From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 02:09:41 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id BAA09282; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sendmail.cisto.org (tarsus.cisto.org [151.196.211.15]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A19517EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from quill.local (pop-zh-4-dialup-188.freesurf.ch [194.230.16.188] (may be forged)) by sendmail.cisto.org (8.9.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22457; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 04:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from norbert@localhost) by quill.local (8.11.2/8.11.2/SuSE Linux 8.11.1-0.5) id f8Q8lYb22479; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:47:34 +0200 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 10:47:34 +0200 Message-Id: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> From: Norbert Bollow Prefer-Language: de, en, fr To: chuqui@plaidworks.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (message from Chuq Von Rospach on Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:55:49 -0700) Subject: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML References: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > On 9/18/01 3:01 AM, "Norbert Bollow" wrote: > > > I have a potential customer who will send out lots of JPG images > > via his (pretty big) mailing list. > > Life will be much happier for him if he can be convinced to put them on a > web site and link to them. It's absolutely necessary for his application to make sure that the page will display as a nice page with lots of pictures on it. However I could set things up so that when he sends out an email that contains inlined images, then the images will not be included in the outgoing email, but instead they'll be stored on my one of my servers and the IMG tags updated accordingly, i.e. src="images/logos/logo_001.gif" might get changed to something like src="http://cisto.com/client832/img423.gif" How will the popular HTML-rendering email clients react to this kind of IMG tags? What will happen when the message is displayed while offline? > There are many sites now that block mail with > attachments, especially corporate firewalls. It'll also be easier on the > network bandwidth, and from my testing on these issues, less likely to have > compatibility issues. We do this both ways -- I tell all my internal > customers that'll listen not to enclose stuff if you can help it. Good points here :) Greetings, Norbert. -- A member of FreeDevelopers and the DotGNU Steering Committee: dotgnu.org Norbert Bollow, Weidlistr.18, CH-8624 Gruet (near Zurich, Switzerland) Tel +41 1 972 20 59 Fax +41 1 972 20 69 http://thinkcoach.com Your own domain with all your Mailman lists: $15/month http://cisto.com From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 06:53:47 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA15119; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom.iecc.com (tom.iecc.com [208.31.42.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 58D3F17EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 06:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16462 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2001 09:49:26 -0400 Received: (ofmipd 208.31.42.38); 26 Sep 2001 13:49:04 -0000 Date: 26 Sep 2001 09:49:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Norbert Bollow" Cc: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Life will be much happier for him if he can be convinced to put them on a > > web site and link to them. > > It's absolutely necessary for his application to make sure that > the page will display as a nice page with lots of pictures on it. Then he has a problem, since there are still plenty of mail programs that don't display images at all. Best to assume that the users are friendly and a teeny bit smart and tell them what they have to do to be sure they get the nice pictures. > However I could set things up so that when he sends out an email > that contains inlined images, then the images will not be > included in the outgoing email, but instead they'll be stored on > my one of my servers ... > How will the popular HTML-rendering email clients react to this > kind of IMG tags? That works fine. > What will happen when the message is displayed while offline? Same as displaying any web page offline, it won't load the images if they're not already cached. Tell people not to do that. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 08:53:26 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA16761; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69C417EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8QFoPQ14261; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:50:25 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:50:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Norbert Bollow Cc: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 1:47 AM, "Norbert Bollow" wrote: > It's absolutely necessary for his application to make sure that > the page will display as a nice page with lots of pictures on it. Then he's got a problem. E-mail clients vary widely (and horribly) in their ability to render stuff. He's going to have to do a lot of testing, he'll probably have to do a special version JUST for his AOL users, since their system is that different, and it still won't work right in many cases. If he really, really needs this, he ought to use PDF. However, that's not necessariyl user-friendly, since you can't assume browsers have a PDF plug-in installed. > However I could set things up so that when he sends out an email > that contains inlined images, then the images will not be > included in the outgoing email, but instead they'll be stored on > my one of my servers and the IMG tags updated accordingly, That works much, much better than doing stuff inline. It also doesn't trip nearly as many corporate firewalls, and puts a much lower load on the server and network infrastructure. And generates many fewer complains from users about downloading huge pieces of e-mail. > How will the popular HTML-rendering email clients react to this > kind of IMG tags? Everyone will react differently. The simpler the HTML, the better. Some will simply break, too. Have fun. > What will happen when the message is displayed while offline? They;ll get broken links, most of the time. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 09:07:34 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA16891; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6136C17EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8QFtbQ14329; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:55:37 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:55:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: John R Levine , Norbert Bollow Cc: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 6:49 AM, "John R Levine" wrote: > Then he has a problem, since there are still plenty of mail programs that > don't display images at all. But in general, their usage is teeny. It's not the number of programs out there that do this, but how many are using them. But for a list of any size, it wouldn't be unusual to have to test against ten or 11 combinations to catch 95% of the subscriber base. You won't get 100% (period), s it then comes down to how much work to get how close. If layout integrity is a key, I still think PDF is the best way to go, but it's large and requires users view it after downloading. No Panacea, that's for sure. Non-inline HTML is next, but there will be the typical browser variations, and you have to be careful about setting it up, since some clients are better than others, and some servers aren't good at not munging MIME.... The worst thing you can do, IMHO, is send it as a single embedded graphic (like we do with Apple iCards -- but iCards are one-off customs, not bulk-mailed, and I've been talking to people that when the occasional bulk iCard goes out, it uses a server-based graphic...) It's a swamp. Wear waders... (grin) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 09:37:25 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id JAA17503; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clifford.inch.com (ns.biglist.com [216.223.208.40]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B38B217EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:22:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33470 invoked by uid 501); 26 Sep 2001 16:21:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:21:59 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: removeyou.com Message-ID: <20010926122159.A32895@clifford.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone had any dealings with http://www.removeyou.com/ ? Are they a legit and effective operation? Omar From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 11:22:12 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19304; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom.iecc.com (tom.iecc.com [208.31.42.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 66A0517EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28036 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2001 14:08:23 -0400 Received: (ofmipd 208.31.42.38); 26 Sep 2001 18:08:01 -0000 Date: 26 Sep 2001 14:08:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Chuq Von Rospach" Cc: "Norbert Bollow" , "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > But for a list of any size, it wouldn't be unusual to have to test against > ten or 11 combinations to catch 95% of the subscriber base. You won't get > 100% (period), s it then comes down to how much work to get how close. I think we're in violent agreement here. If the graphics are important, the list manager has to enlist the users to help assure that they all arrange their mail programs so they can see them. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 11:48:06 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id LAA19506; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C8217EC8 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 11:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tpad.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E43835010 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:24:39 -0400 (EDT) X-America-has-resolve: yes Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 13:55:20 -0400 To: From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: References: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically invokes remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that I'm looking at is essentially broken. It allows someone to track who is reading their mass (U?BE, that is unsolicited or not bulk) e-mail, and, if you send out individual e-mails, it can even automatically feed back who is reading the e-mail and when. I believe that any good e-mail reader would, at least, allow you an option for not allowing these urls to be invoked because of the security and privacy issues. Personally, I use an e-mail user agent with a lame, broken html renderer (Eudora 5.1) on purpose. Yes, you can set it to use Microsoft's renderer, but that is, IMHO, electronically suicidal. If I could only get it to work with cyrus/sasl/openssl, but that is another story... I'm not sure what the average person does, I expect that the traditional desire is for maximum function without regard to privacy or security, and I think that things are finally changing. My neighbor's office got nimda, and finally freaked out and said, "no more outook". I think that a lot of offices are finally doing the same thing and security is finally costing market share. -- We often hear of war described as if it were some kind of impersonal affliction, such as the Black Plague or famine.The fact is that war is not just something that happens, it is something that people make happen, and they make it happen for reasons. As Clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. Exactly. War is neither a hurricane nor a flood. It is, on the contrary, the cutting edge of ideology. -- Jeff Cooper Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com - http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 13:11:27 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id MAA20612; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.apple.com (lists.apple.com [17.254.0.151]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FAA17EAE for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [17.216.27.143] (A17-216-27-143.apple.com [17.216.27.143]) by lists.apple.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8QJe8Z18399; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:08 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Nick Simicich , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 10:55 AM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: > My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically invokes > remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that I'm looking at > is essentially broken. You are in a user base of about 2% or less of the net population, then. I'm not saying you're right or wrong -- but you're clearly not typical or speaking for them. FWIW. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 14:52:34 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA22490; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trex.uia.net (mail.uia.net [66.146.0.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA51717EB5 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lehel.goldmark.private (34.16191.uia.net [131.161.91.34]) by trex.uia.net (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f8QLdYn74190; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 15mMOv-0000GU-00; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:39:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:39:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: Nick Simicich Cc: Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Nick Simicich wrote: > My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically invokes > remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that I'm looking at > is essentially broken. I agree entirely. > It allows someone to track who is reading their mass [...] e-mail. This is not just an abstract possibility, spammers routinly do this. > Personally, I use an e-mail user agent with a lame, broken html renderer > (Eudora 5.1) on purpose. And I use Pine (for a variety of reasons, but including the fact that the HTML rendering is safe from inline img snooping and JavaScript). Going back to the original question, we are being asked about making a mailing list do things that are quiet inappropriate for the vast majority of lists. I suppose that when people sign up for that list, they can get an announcment that says, "To view our slick announcments and brochures they way we would like you to see them, please be sure to use an insecure, Internet-unfriendly email program such as Outlook Express". Alternatively, if there really really is a proper need for this kind of thing (we've only been told that the "customer insists that there is a need") then why not send the stuff out as PDF and ask all list members to be sure to have installed a PDF viewer such as GSView, Xpdf or Acroread. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg I have recently moved, see http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/contact.html Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 15:22:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id OAA22724; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (balt-1-181.dynamic-dialup.coretel.net [162.33.168.181]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18A917EB5 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avatar.gsp.org ([192.168.0.11]) by gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8QLtRD19292 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by avatar.gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8QLpQM01669 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:51:25 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML Message-ID: <20010926175125.A1367@gsp.org> References: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1>; from njs@scifi.squawk.com on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:55:20PM -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:55:20PM -0400, Nick Simicich wrote: > My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically invokes > remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that I'm looking at > is essentially broken. It allows someone to track who is reading their > mass (U?BE, that is unsolicited or not bulk) e-mail, and, if you send out > individual e-mails, it can even automatically feed back who is reading the > e-mail and when. All *excellent* points and a compelling argument for not using an HTML-cognizant mail client. Another couple arguments to add to the list: instrusion detection systems, and web content filtering monitors. (Not that *I* approve of web content filtering: I don't. But people use it, and one way to cause trouble for person X at company Y is to send them email that opens HTTP connections to blocked site Z when they read it. Sure, it can all be sorted out...but will it?) ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 18:17:37 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA25603; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63C117EB5 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tpad.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD1A63507D for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:01:52 -0400 (EDT) X-America-has-resolve: yes Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926203144.02afc2f0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:46:56 -0400 To: From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:40 PM 9/26/2001 -0700, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >On 9/26/01 10:55 AM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: > > > My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically invokes > > remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that I'm looking at > > is essentially broken. > >You are in a user base of about 2% or less of the net population, then. > >I'm not saying you're right or wrong -- but you're clearly not typical or >speaking for them. FWIW. Is that because the average user has not bothered to think out the implications of allowing people who send you e-mail to track your movements? Or because they simply don't care? -- We often hear of war described as if it were some kind of impersonal affliction, such as the Black Plague or famine.The fact is that war is not just something that happens, it is something that people make happen, and they make it happen for reasons. As Clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. Exactly. War is neither a hurricane nor a flood. It is, on the contrary, the cutting edge of ideology. -- Jeff Cooper Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com - http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 18:54:03 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA26374; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5E9AD17ECA for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20825 invoked by uid 50); 27 Sep 2001 01:47:29 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2001 08:55:38 -0700" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 26 Sep 2001 18:47:29 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 18 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 9/26/01 6:49 AM, "John R Levine" wrote: >> Then he has a problem, since there are still plenty of mail programs >> that don't display images at all. > But in general, their usage is teeny. It's not the number of programs > out there that do this, but how many are using them. Yup, at this point you're down to pretty much just the hard-core Berkeley mail, mh, elm, and RMAIL users. Pine and mutt display images, if a bit cumbersomely, and exmh and Gnus both inline them. And of course pretty much everything on the Mac and PC has been handling inline images for a while now. It would surprise me if VM wasn't using the inline image support at this point; I bet that if it isn't it will be soon. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 19:08:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA26515; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D09717ECA for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21094 invoked by uid 50); 27 Sep 2001 01:53:37 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML References: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> <20010926175125.A1367@gsp.org> In-Reply-To: Rich Kulawiec's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:51:25 -0400" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 26 Sep 2001 18:53:37 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Rich Kulawiec writes: > All *excellent* points and a compelling argument for not using an > HTML-cognizant mail client. Or using one that's configurable. ;; Tell w3-mode to be paranoid about what information it gives out, since ;; we're sometimes looking at spam with it. (setq url-privacy-level 'paranoid) ;; Tell w3-mode not to honor color changes or style sheets. (setq w3-user-colors-take-precedence t) (setq w3-honor-stylesheets nil) ;; Tell w3-mode to delay loading images, since I read spam with it. (setq w3-delay-image-loads t) -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 19:23:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id TAA27220; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tom.iecc.com (tom.iecc.com [208.31.42.38]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D943317ECA for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21157 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2001 22:14:46 -0400 Received: (ofmipd 208.31.42.38); 27 Sep 2001 02:14:24 -0000 Date: 26 Sep 2001 22:14:46 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Nick Simicich" Cc: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926203144.02afc2f0@127.0.0.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is that because the average user has not bothered to think out the > implications of allowing people who send you e-mail to track your > movements? Or because they simply don't care? Both, I expect. Do keep in mind that not every IMG url in an HTML message is a web bug. It's only a web bug if the url is unique to the recipient. I just got an HTML message from Orbitz, for example, that contains a couple of dozen references to a 1x1 gif on their web site, but when I look at the HTML, I can see that there's no per recipient info, they're being resized and used as spacers, so in their web logs they'll just see a couple of hits on that file without being able to tell what message linked to it. If you grant that formatted mail is permissable at all (personally, I'd have rather gotten that message in plain text), I don't see how references to generic images make it any worse. On the third hand, I've heard of one moderately legit use for web bugs: people sign up for a list, you send them multipart/alternative with a web bug, and if there's a hit on the web bug you know they have a mail program that renders HTML so you can stop sending them the non-HTML version. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Information Superhighwayman wanna-be, http://iecc.com/johnl, Sewer Commissioner Finger for PGP key, f'print = 3A 5B D0 3F D9 A0 6A A4 2D AC 1E 9E A6 36 A3 47 From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 19:38:54 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id SAA26484; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A2F617ECA for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 18:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 21050 invoked by uid 50); 27 Sep 2001 01:52:39 -0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2001 12:40:16 -0700" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 26 Sep 2001 18:52:39 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 31 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 9/26/01 10:55 AM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: >> My personal feeling is that any e-mail client that automatically >> invokes remote urls of any sort, including img tags from e-mail that >> I'm looking at is essentially broken. > You are in a user base of about 2% or less of the net population, then. > I'm not saying you're right or wrong -- but you're clearly not typical > or speaking for them. FWIW. For small images, there's no reason not to just include the image in the message. You can then inline them just fine; there have been MIME standards for doing this for eons. Gnus handles that seamlessly, and I would hope that the typical Windows mail readers would as well. I think that opening URLs poses a security risk, and while Chuq may be right about the percentage of the population that think about that, I think he's wrong about the percentage of deployed clients that are going to successfully receive such mail. That's because within that 2% of people who think about such things are firewall administrators who are watching things like the Nimda worm and thinking "hm, maybe we should start being more aggressive about filtering out active content." Embedded tags are active content. Just because the HTML claims to be an image doesn't mean that the remote site has to send you an image or that your browser will interpret it as one. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 20:53:53 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id UAA28804; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2705217E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R3jTQ28777; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:45:29 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 20:45:30 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Nick Simicich , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010926203144.02afc2f0@127.0.0.1> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 5:46 PM, "Nick Simicich" wrote: >> I'm not saying you're right or wrong -- but you're clearly not typical or >> speaking for them. FWIW. > > > Is that because the average user has not bothered to think out the > implications of allowing people who send you e-mail to track your > movements? Or because they simply don't care? Or perhaps they see things differently. To a good degree, this is a generational thing as much as anything. The old pharts tend to prefer things that were around when they were young pharts, and the young pharts prefer the things that are here now that they're young pharts. I expect when the young pharts become old pharts, they'll gripe that the new generation of young pharts don't have a clue because they think differently, too. Every generation thinks they know how it ought to work, and the new generation comes in and does its own thing. You either deal with it, or they look at you funny and stop asking you questions.... From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 21:23:44 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29351; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from trex.uia.net (mail.uia.net [66.146.0.5]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729EF17E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lehel.goldmark.private (11.16191.uia.net [131.161.91.11]) by trex.uia.net (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f8R4Bvn97907 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by lehel.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 15mSWd-0000NT-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:11:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:11:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 26 Sep 2001, Russ Allbery wrote: > Pine and mutt display images, if a bit cumbersomely, Pine does not. (Or it is so cumbersome that you are very very unlikely to try to display in inline that you shouldn't). Another reason to not use remote inline images is that some people may read their mail while disconnected. I would like to remind everyone that in many places in the world local phone calls are meterred so people often set up systems that fetch all of their mail to a local inbox which can then be read while disconnected. I don't know what the application the original poster had in mind, but I can't believe that sending out HTML mail with inline images (whether remote or attached) is the right solution. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg I have recently moved, see http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/contact.html Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 21:39:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29524; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC75D17E8E for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R4IhQ29290; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:18:43 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:18:44 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: John R Levine , Nick Simicich Cc: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 7:14 PM, "John R Levine" wrote: > It's only a web bug if the url is unique to the recipient. Unless, of course, they're back-tracking through the referrer to your IP. If, for instance, they track your visits to the web site, they can do a lot of user tracking just by watching what other hits come from those IP ranges. There are obvious limitations to that, but you can get a lot of useful data that way. Or maybe they're tracking back on your path geographically (think Akamai or colo-ed round-robin stuff). Or maybe they're using user-ID encoding in their hostname schemes to hide the user tracking you're looking for in the URL part. Or maybe they aren't doing any of that. But there are lots of techniques you can use to track back lots of information that aren't obvious, but may well be there. Just because there aren't obvious bugs doesn't mean they arne't tracking. Oh, and while I'm flapping my gums, just because there ARE bugs, don't assume they ARE user tracking. Those bugs are also quite useful for aggregated data that may or may not be tracked back to an individual. They may not care about individual actions, but are using bugs to track statistical samples or aggregated groupings of some sort. Not that I'd know anything about that, you understand. > If you grant that formatted mail is permissable at all (personally, I'd > have rather gotten that message in plain text), I don't see how references > to generic images make it any worse. That's why I think it's important you keep plain-text as an option. On the other hand: given equal choice, 80+% now prefer an HTML version of our lists. That's not data based on an assumed default choice, either. > On the third hand, I've heard of one moderately legit use for web bugs: > people sign up for a list, you send them multipart/alternative with a web > bug, and if there's a hit on the web bug you know they have a mail program > that renders HTML so you can stop sending them the non-HTML version. There are lots of legitimate uses. To name one other: say you publish a newsletter. Say you want to know whether people are interested in what you're publishing. Bug the URLs, and see which ones they select. That gives you great data on which pieces the audience use, and which they don't -- without the time and expense of running surveys, which may or may not be statistically valid. You can get real-time feedback on what stuff you pbulish they like; so you can publish more of that, and less of what they don't care about. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 21:54:15 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29927; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400217E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R4eUQ29543; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:40:30 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:40:33 -0700 Subject: Re: removeyou.com From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Omar Thameen , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20010926122159.A32895@clifford.inch.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As far as I can tell (and as far as I'm concerned), any mail I get that referencee that site is spam, and is tossed into the spam folder. Which is how I saw this -- I'm clearing that folder out, and setting that procmail rule to /dev/null. Good timing! On 9/26/01 9:21 AM, "Omar Thameen" wrote: > Has anyone had any dealings with http://www.removeyou.com/ ? > Are they a legit and effective operation? > > Omar > > From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 22:08:49 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29976; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.13.23]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DB44617E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22651 invoked by uid 50); 27 Sep 2001 04:44:45 -0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML References: In-Reply-To: Chuq Von Rospach's message of "Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:08:25 -0700" From: Russ Allbery Organization: The Eyrie Date: 26 Sep 2001 21:44:45 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 49 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Channel Islands) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chuq Von Rospach writes: > On 9/26/01 6:52 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: >> For small images, there's no reason not to just include the image in >> the message. You can then inline them just fine; > True but.... A growing number of corporate firewalls reject mail with > attachments. *shrug* A growing number of corporate firewalls reject mail with active content. Either way, you lose. Personally, I'd be willing to bet that the number of firewalls that reject attachments with .gif or .jpg extensions and the correct MIME types (making them as innocuous as content can possibly get in e-mail, really) is going to stay smaller than the number of firewalls that reject active content like tags. > So if you're running a list, you're cutting yourself off from those > users. I see this as becoming more of a problem over time, not less, > given how things are going. Either way, you're cutting yourself off from some users. So it's just a matter of reading tea leaves to try to guess which set is bigger. >> I think he's wrong about the percentage of deployed clients that are >> going to successfully receive such mail. That's because within that 2% >> of people who think about such things are firewall administrators who >> are watching things like > I sort of agree, but not completely. For the most part, those people are > using the corporate tools. You don't have a guy sitting and running ELM > making pollcy decisions for a corporation running Outlook Express. You > have Outlook Express people making decisions for sites running OE. I don't think what e-mail client the person is using has much influence on whether they decide to block active content. Actually, I take that back. If the administrator is running OE, I bet they're a lot *more* likely to block active content because they could get nailed by it themselves, whereas the person running ELM is probably thinking "if you run Windows, you get what you deserve" at least part of the time. > User tracking, by the way, is not by definition evil. But user tracking > can be abused -- and is. Right, it's basically the same as cookies. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 22:24:52 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA00771; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED9417ECA for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R5DQQ29960; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:13:26 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:13:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Jeffrey Goldberg , List Managers Mailing list Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 9:11 PM, "Jeffrey Goldberg" wrote: > Another reason to not use remote inline images is that some people may > read their mail while disconnected. See, to me, I see this as a reason TO use remote images. If you embed them in the message, the user downloads them whether they want them or not, unless they have a client set to partially download large messages. If you use remote images, the user can download their mail, go offline, read it, and if they WANT the images, connect in and get them. We havent forced them down their metered connection by embedding them. IMHO, that gives the user the option, depending on their circumstances. We aren't making the decision for them. Your mileage varied long, long ago, in a galaxy far away, of course.... From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 22:43:47 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id VAA29294; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B5E17E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R48OQ29118; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:08:24 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 21:08:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 6:52 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > For small images, there's no reason not to just include the image in the > message. You can then inline them just fine; True but.... A growing number of corporate firewalls reject mail with attachments. So if you're running a list, you're cutting yourself off from those users. I see this as becoming more of a problem over time, not less, given how things are going. Now, there are a lot of stupid IS organizations doing stupid things at the firewall in the name of anti-virus and/or spam protection. I've had more than one discussion with them, few of them fruitful, trying to explain things like "false positives are not a feature". But beyond stupidity, there are corporate policy issues that you may disagree with, but it probably doesn't make sense to fight when you have reasonable alternatives, and mebedded graphics is one place where the net gain is minimal and it creates an artificial barrier. The number of problems caused by embedding an the number of problems caused by referring to a remote file seem about the same from my experience. > I think that opening URLs poses a security risk, Being on the internet is a security risk. Joining a mailing list is a huge security risk, since unless you like spam, joining lists will likely get you onto spammer lists sooner or later. For a long time, in fact, list-managers dumped all our addresses out into google and the global engines, but I just checked and that isn't true any more.... You can't avoid risk, unless you unplug the machine from the net. So you need to evaluate and manage that risk, and teach people to understand it, and I think it's important for list managers to build a web of trust around themselves that users can understand and accept. > I > think he's wrong about the percentage of deployed clients that are going > to successfully receive such mail. That's because within that 2% of > people who think about such things are firewall administrators who are > watching things like I sort of agree, but not completely. For the most part, those people are using the corporate tools. You don't have a guy sitting and running ELM making pollcy decisions for a corporation running Outlook Express. You have Outlook Express people making decisions for sites running OE. There are exceptions, but in general, the IS weenie (of which I is one) uses corporate IS tools. > Embedded tags are active content. Yup. And that's why I think it's important that sites that do this discuss it in their privacy disclosures -- and stick to what they agree to. User tracking, by the way, is not by definition evil. But user tracking can be abused -- and is. And if you do track users, what you're doing ought to be disclosed. You let users make the choice. And if you do stuff like this, you ought to have a way to allow users to opt-out if they want. From list-managers-owner Wed Sep 26 22:54:55 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id WAA01505; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EE217E8C for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R5k3Q30400; Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:46:03 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 22:46:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Russ Allbery , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/26/01 9:44 PM, "Russ Allbery" wrote: > *shrug* A growing number of corporate firewalls reject mail with active > content. Either way, you lose. Yup. Sort of my point. There's no 100% solutions here. > Personally, I'd be willing to bet that > the number of firewalls that reject attachments with .gif or .jpg > extensions and the correct MIME types (making them as innocuous as content > can possibly get in e-mail, really) is going to stay smaller than the > number of firewalls that reject active content like tags. Based on my data, you'd lose that bet. This is something we track, FWIW. > Either way, you're cutting yourself off from some users. As soon as you move from text, you do. By staying WITH text, you do -- yes, we've had people leave our lists because the list we were sending them wasn't HTML. If you twirl the dead chicken in the data center four times instead of five, you'll lose them... > So it's just a > matter of reading tea leaves to try to guess which set is bigger. There are better tools than tea leaves, but it takes work. > I don't think what e-mail client the person is using has much influence on > whether they decide to block active content. > > Actually, I take that back. If the administrator is running OE, I bet > they're a lot *more* likely to block active content because they could get > nailed by it themselves, whereas the person running ELM is probably > thinking "if you run Windows, you get what you deserve" at least part of > the time. One would HOPE your IS people are more sensitive to the customer needs than that. But -- many times, they aren't. But you're stll basically right. Certain technologies lend themselves to being more sensitive to these issues than others -- and they also have tools that can be better adapted to implementing policies than others (or abusing those policies, or screwing them up, or... I've been having, ofr instance, a running discussion with one site with a few users subscribed to my lists over their content filters. For some reason, they won't allow Igor Livshits to e-mail to anyone on their site. And they refuse to understand the concept of the false positive, and why this causes us to keep unsubscribing their users from our lists... And I feel for the users, but I'm tired of their site bouncing mail for stupid reasons..) From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 27 02:55:22 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id CAA06984; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gsp.org (unknown [207.22.68.222]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DE417E8C for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 02:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from avatar.gsp.org ([192.168.0.11]) by gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8R9Q9D19722 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsk@localhost) by avatar.gsp.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id f8R9JSI09639 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 05:19:28 -0400 From: Rich Kulawiec To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML Message-ID: <20010927051928.A9438@gsp.org> References: <200109260847.f8Q8lYb22479@quill.local> <5.1.0.14.2.20010926134140.02c572f0@127.0.0.1> <20010926175125.A1367@gsp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from rra@stanford.edu on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 06:53:37PM -0700 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 06:53:37PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: > Rich Kulawiec writes: > > > All *excellent* points and a compelling argument for not using an > > HTML-cognizant mail client. > > Or using one that's configurable. Agreed. (I use mutt and amaya or w3m for mail/web.) But -- and maybe this is an artifact of how I've organized my work -- I never load content directly from a mail message into a web browser. I'll snip specific URLs, I'll sometimes use curl to fetch a page (or curlmirror to fetch many pages), sometimes I'll go through an anonymizer (if I think it's a spammer's site), and so on. Yep, it's definitely more work that way: but not *much* more, and it puts me in the loop...where *hopefully* I'll notice anomalies before I act on them. ;-) ----Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 27 06:54:58 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id GAA13320; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (ligarius-fe0.ultra.net [146.115.8.189]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCD417E8C for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 06:41:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stan-kca9czsn9h.sunspot.tiac.net (207-172-216-19.s527.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.216.19]) by ligarius-fe0.ultra.net (8.8.8/ult/n26500/mtc.v2) with ESMTP id JAA18967 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010927090825.02730790@pop.ma.ultranet.com> X-Sender: stanr@pop.ma.ultranet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 09:42:58 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Stan Ryckman Subject: spam filters (was Re: remov... .com) In-Reply-To: References: <20010926122159.A32895@clifford.inch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (Subject changed to avoid Chuq's filters!) At 12:40 AM 9/27/2001, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: >As far as I can tell (and as far as I'm concerned), any mail I get that >referencee that site is spam, and is tossed into the spam folder. Which is >how I saw this -- I'm clearing that folder out, and setting that procmail >rule to /dev/null. Good timing! Well, you can do what you want, but it's "generally accepted practice" to 'whitelist' or 'greenlist' subscribed mailing lists and other known sources (your boss, your mother) before dumping mail. The mail you responded to just disproved your "any mail I get that referencee that site is spam" hypothesis. It's also "generally accepted" that it's virtually impossible to identify spam by body content alone. A number of well-meaning admins (which I consider incompetent, since they're deleting SOMEBODY ELSE's mail) have been tossing discussions about viruses, based on overly-simple-minded body filters. You don't have to accept my definition of "generally accepted," but that's how I choose to interpret the discussions on the procmail mailing list (see the procmail man page to subscribe). If anyone reading this is contemplating using procmail to filter, I'd recommend subscribing to that list for a while, at least until your recipes are stable. [Since you're using procmail, you can probably improve your false-match rate by using "scoring" if you're going to use body filters anyway, by counting things rather than just the match/nomatch criteria available in the simple typical MUA filters.] Cheers, Stan From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 27 08:40:10 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA14891; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scifi.squawk.com (glock.squawk.com [208.176.124.157]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D758D17E8C for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tpad.scifi.squawk.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by scifi.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF0B35013; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:24:24 -0400 (EDT) X-America-has-resolve: yes Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010927111021.02c16e98@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: njs@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:12:00 -0400 To: Russ Allbery , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Getting rid of inlined images in HTML In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:44 PM 9/26/2001 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: >Either way, you're cutting yourself off from some users. So it's just a >matter of reading tea leaves to try to guess which set is bigger. And to get to the biggest set with your list seen just the way you sent it...drumroll....sent plain text. -- We often hear of war described as if it were some kind of impersonal affliction, such as the Black Plague or famine.The fact is that war is not just something that happens, it is something that people make happen, and they make it happen for reasons. As Clausewitz said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. Exactly. War is neither a hurricane nor a flood. It is, on the contrary, the cutting edge of ideology. -- Jeff Cooper Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com - http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html From list-managers-owner Thu Sep 27 08:54:56 2001 Received: (majordom@localhost) by honor.greatcircle.com (8.8.5/Honor-Lists-980720-1) id IAA15102; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from plaidworks.com (www.plaidworks.com [64.81.78.180]) by honor.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980C917E8C for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [64.81.78.182] (dsl081-078-182.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net [64.81.78.182]) by plaidworks.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id f8RFcuQ06565; Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:38:57 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.1.3108 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 08:38:56 -0700 Subject: Re: spam filters (was Re: remov... .com) From: Chuq Von Rospach To: Stan Ryckman , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010927090825.02730790@pop.ma.ultranet.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 9/27/01 6:42 AM, "Stan Ryckman" wrote: > Well, you can do what you want, but it's "generally accepted practice" > to 'whitelist' or 'greenlist' subscribed mailing lists I use whitelists -- you have to remember that list-managers has been rather quiet of late until recently, so it simply hasn't been added to them. These filters are things I'm noodling on anyway, nothing close to 'production'. > It's also "generally accepted" that it's virtually impossible to > identify spam by body content alone. And I'm not trying to. But I'm experimenting with it as ONE technique among many. I'm seeing what things catch spam and what things bring in false positives. One false positive in ten days. There are clearly things you can do among body content checks to catch certain CLASSES of spam. And since what I'm doing is try to squeegee the stuff that's easy/safe, that's not bad. So far, I'm catching about 40% of the spam I'm seeing and redirecting it. That's a nice improvement. > A number of well-meaning admins > (which I consider incompetent, since they're deleting SOMEBODY ELSE's > mail) have been tossing discussions about viruses, based on > overly-simple-minded body filters. Tell me about it. I see it constantly. I'm not trying to get fancy here, just whack the low hanging fruit....