From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Mar 2 08:13:29 2003 Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B246C1959E2 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-025 #44856) with ESMTP id <0HB400LC1QFFEP@eListX.com> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 02 Mar 2003 11:14:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 11:13:35 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-reply-to: <3E5D2327.14296.4665DEC@localhost> To: "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <3E5D2327.14296.4665DEC@localhost> X-Archive-Number: 200303/1 X-Sequence-Number: 1319 On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote: 3. If you could sit down, face to face, with the CEO of $BIGISP, what are the three things you would most like to impress upon them in terms of how they handle incoming mailing list mail from a list such as yours? I've got just one. Do RFC3464 right! There is no longer any excuse for not using DSNs. If sites would use them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which kill performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to find bad email addresses. My two biggest pet peeves about DSN implementations: 1. Syntax errors - The number of ways that MTAs incorrectly implement what is clearly specified in the standard is beyond me. 2. Not using original-recipient - Although the use of the Original-Recipient information is optional, not using it when the final and original do not match is a waste of bits. It's worse than not using DSNs at all. There is something bad to say about every major ISP on the issue of RFC3464 compliance. Jim From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Sun Mar 2 08:50:36 2003 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 18BF5195F33 for ; Sun, 2 Mar 2003 08:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31606 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Mar 2003 16:50:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 10:50:32 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/2 X-Sequence-Number: 1320 > I've got just one. Do RFC3464 right! > > There is no longer any excuse for not using DSNs. If sites would use > them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which kill > performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to find bad > email addresses. > > There is something bad to say about every major ISP on the issue of > RFC3464 compliance. And that doesn't suggest problems with RFC 3464 to you? As most of us have never worked for a major ISP, and are unlikely to do so, perhaps someone could analyze what concerns or problems large ISP's may have with RFC 3464 compliance. I really doubt they're all being non-compliant just out of spite. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 08:20:48 2003 Received: from yertle.kcilink.com (yertle.kcilink.com [216.194.193.105]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0BB196070 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from onceler.int.kciLink.com (onceler.int.kcilink.com [192.168.7.2]) by yertle.kcilink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E978217B7 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by onceler.int.kciLink.com (Postfix, from userid 100) id 837A73D17; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:20:35 -0500 (EST) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:20:35 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-Reply-To: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> References: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid X-Archive-Number: 200303/3 X-Sequence-Number: 1321 >>>>> "n" == nolan writes: >> There is no longer any excuse for not using DSNs. If sites would >> use them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which >> kill performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to >> find bad email addresses. I disagree. DSN's report the final recipient, not necessarily the address that is in your mailing list. n> As most of us have never worked for a major ISP, and are unlikely n> to do so, perhaps someone could analyze what concerns or problems n> large ISP's may have with RFC 3464 compliance. I added some DSN processing to my bounce processor the other day. Today I'm scanning the logs from it and I see that there are a fair number of "Action: failed" but "Status: 2.0.0" coming from netscape.net (and even one from aol.com). Who in their right mind would generate such a contradictory DSN? Or am I misreading the codes and their meanings? I think it is more programmer laziness/incompetence than spite that they don't comply with the DSN RFCs (or *any* random RFC). -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vivek Khera, Ph.D. Khera Communications, Inc. Internet: khera@kciLink.com Rockville, MD +1-240-453-8497 AIM: vivekkhera Y!: vivek_khera http://www.khera.org/~vivek/ From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 08:43:21 2003 Received: from parrot.squawk.com (parrot.squawk.com [64.244.111.110]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B90196044 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from toshiba.scifi.squawk.com (toshiba.squawk.com [199.74.151.118]) by parrot.squawk.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0028525B184 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:43:14 -0500 (EST) X-America-Has-Resolve: yes X-Message-Flag: Microsoft Outlook is insecure. Upgrade your Mail Program Now! Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303113123.22416b90@199.74.151.1> X-Sender: njs@199.74.151.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:32:53 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) From: Nick Simicich Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this In-Reply-To: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-1EE47D27; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/4 X-Sequence-Number: 1322 At 10:50 AM 2003-03-02 -0600, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > > I've got just one. Do RFC3464 right! > > > > There is no longer any excuse for not using DSNs. If sites would use > > them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which kill > > performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to find bad > > email addresses. > > > > There is something bad to say about every major ISP on the issue of > > RFC3464 compliance. > >And that doesn't suggest problems with RFC 3464 to you? > >As most of us have never worked for a major ISP, and are unlikely to >do so, perhaps someone could analyze what concerns or problems large ISP's >may have with RFC 3464 compliance. > >I really doubt they're all being non-compliant just out of spite. At one point, the author of Postfix estimated that DSN would more than double the size of Postfix. The problem may actually be worse than the disease. -- SPAM: Trademark for spiced, chopped ham manufactured by Hormel. spam: Unsolicited, Bulk E-mail, where e-mail can be interpreted generally to mean electronic messages designed to be read by an individual, and it can include Usenet, SMS, AIM, etc. But if it is not all three of Unsolicited, Bulk, and E-mail, it simply is not spam. Misusing the term plays into the hands of the spammers, since it causes confusion, and spammers thrive on confusion. Spam is not speech, it is an action, like theft, or vandalism. If you were not confused, would you patronize a spammer? Nick Simicich - njs@scifi.squawk.com - http://scifi.squawk.com/njs.html Stop by and light up the world! From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 08:58:15 2003 Received: from mx1.liv.ac.uk (mx1.liv.ac.uk [138.253.100.179]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3428E195AB4 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhub5.liv.ac.uk ([138.253.100.157]) by mx1.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18ptGJ-0003XZ-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:57:59 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=mailhub5.liv.ac.uk) by mailhub5.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18ptGJ-0003mv-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:57:59 +0000 Received: from ajtpc.liv.ac.uk ([138.253.253.66]) by mailhub5.liv.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 18ptGJ-0003ms-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:57:59 +0000 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:57:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Thew X-X-Sender: qq11@ajtpc.liv.ac.uk To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303113123.22416b90@199.74.151.1> Message-ID: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303113123.22416b90@199.74.151.1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan for exim4 (http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/) *18ptGJ-0003XZ-00*65P9nQIWk8.* X-Archive-Number: 200303/5 X-Sequence-Number: 1323 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:32 , Nick Simicich said: > At 10:50 AM 2003-03-02 -0600, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > > > > I've got just one. Do RFC3464 right! > > > > > > There is no longer any excuse for not using DSNs. If sites would use > > > them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which kill > > > performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to find bad > > > email addresses. > > > > > > There is something bad to say about every major ISP on the issue of > > > RFC3464 compliance. > > > >And that doesn't suggest problems with RFC 3464 to you? > > > >As most of us have never worked for a major ISP, and are unlikely to > >do so, perhaps someone could analyze what concerns or problems large ISP's > >may have with RFC 3464 compliance. > > > >I really doubt they're all being non-compliant just out of spite. > > At one point, the author of Postfix estimated that DSN would more than > double the size of Postfix. The problem may actually be worse than the > disease. > The exim author has said similar things (more on the complexity front rather than size). I don't speak for him tho' -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liverpool.ac.uk Computing Services,University of Liverpool Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 09:01:08 2003 Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF4F196044 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (A17-129-100-225.apple.com [17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h23H15Yv028976 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:01:01 -0800 Received: from plaidworks.com (vg0602e-dhcp175.apple.com [17.216.21.175]) by scv2.apple.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h23H10Q29461; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:01:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:01:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) To: Vivek Khera From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Archive-Number: 200303/6 X-Sequence-Number: 1324 On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 08:20 AM, Vivek Khera wrote: > I disagree. DSN's report the final recipient, not necessarily the > address that is in your mailing list. Very true. But with the improved personalization of list servers like Mailman 2.1, verp might not be the only option we have these days, too. But just because it's not in the "right" format doesn't mean it's useful. > I think it is more programmer laziness/incompetence than spite that > they don't comply with the DSN RFCs (or *any* random RFC). > I or some of my staff have talked to some of the companies who write the mail servers about this. The reactions range all over the map, from having to be wary about breaking compatibility with previous releases (understandable, especially if customers have written code using the old formats) to being unaware of some of the RFCs involved (what, writing mail servers and not knowing about the mail server RFCs? yeah, go figure) to simply not caring what happens anywhere but on their own software. There's one server we've just given up on, and attempts to talk with the company who writes and sells it haven't been terribly encouraging. I don't want to mention their name, but they're definitely not a first class piece of software, so instead, when I get questions from users about what server to buy, I recommend away from this firm.... -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ But I can hear the sound Of slamming doors and folding chairs And that's a sound they'll never know From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 09:16:53 2003 Received: from charlie.rea-alp.com (ns1.rea-alp.com [65.165.161.2]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5621960E1 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:16:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 018f90.rea-alp.com (public209.rea-alp.com [63.175.64.209]) by charlie.rea-alp.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id h23HGnhu188546 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:16:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030303111636.01a4b188@mailin.rea-alp.com> X-Sender: jay@mailin.rea-alp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:16:48 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jay Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-Reply-To: <20030227114452.12101.qmail@houston.wolf.com> References: <3E5D2327.14296.4665DEC@localhost> <3E5D2327.14296.4665DEC@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/7 X-Sequence-Number: 1325 remove From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 09:34:19 2003 Received: from play.gamerz.net (www.gamerz.net [216.181.159.135]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9194196113 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from play.gamerz.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by play.gamerz.net (Switch-3.0.3/Switch-3.0.0) with ESMTP id h23HYGXR031007 (using TLSv1/SSLv3 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168 bits) verified NO) for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:34:16 -0500 Received: (from rrognlie@localhost) by play.gamerz.net (Switch-3.0.3/Switch-3.0.0/Submit) id h23HYGUZ031006 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:34:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:34:16 -0500 From: Richard Rognlie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Sendmail Security Announcement Message-ID: <20030303173416.GD17136@gamerz.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i X-Archive-Number: 200303/8 X-Sequence-Number: 1326 I know this is not list specific, but I also know many of you are running your lists on sendmail MTAs. http://www.sendmail.com/security/ SECURITY ALERT Today Internet Security Systems and the Sendmail Consortium announced the discovery of a security vulnerability in the sendmail mail transfer agent. This vulnerability is serious, and Sendmail, Inc. urges customers to apply the supplied security patch as soon as possible. The vulnerability derives from a potential buffer overflow in sendmail's header handling code. In a worst-case scenario, the vulnerability provides the ability for an attacker to remotely gain root access to the targeted system. While there have been no known exploits of this vulnerability to this point, we believe that unpatched systems could become exploitable very soon. -- / \__ | Richard Rognlie / Sendmail Ninja / Gamerz.NET Lackey \__/ \ | http://www.gamerz.net/rrognlie/ / \__/ | Today is the first day of the rest of your life. Of course, \__/ | so was yesterday, and look how you screwed *that* up... From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 10:05:03 2003 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89EF41960DE for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18puJ4-0004ng-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:04:54 -0800 To: Vivek Khera Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-Reply-To: Message from Vivek Khera of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 11:20:35 EST." <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> References: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 10:04:54 -0800 Message-ID: <18455.1046714694@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence X-Archive-Number: 200303/9 X-Sequence-Number: 1327 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:20:35 -0500 Vivek Khera wrote: > I disagree. DSN's report the final recipient, not necessarily the > address that is in your mailing list. Quite. Many things would be far more useful if alias translations were reported in the Received: headers. (I do it here under Exim, which makes filtering mail from multiple sources (eg root, webmaster, postmaster, newsmaster, listmaster, etc) far easier. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 10:43:29 2003 Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6555819600E for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-025 #44856) with ESMTP id <0HB6008IHS19C3@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:43:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:43:30 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-reply-to: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> To: List Managers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-Archive-Number: 200303/10 X-Sequence-Number: 1328 On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: > There is something bad to say about every major ISP on the issue of > RFC3464 compliance. And that doesn't suggest problems with RFC 3464 to you? Not necessarily. There are some syntax issues that could reasonably be "blamed" on lack of clarity or the fact that you need several RFCs in order to get the complete picture. But then again, that is the nature of IETF standards and anyone who is serious about such standards should know this and should do the right thing. Which brings me to my second point. Frankly, in my opinion, a large ISP or an email service provider should not be permitted to use as an excuse the fact that IETF standards may require study to get right. They should be setting an example. Which is the basis for my comment. But then again, there is Microsoft.... For example, my issue with AOL and 3464 is that they do not use it all the time. It seems that the type of DSN you get depends on which part of their system rejects the message. They also don't report the Original-Recipient. With MSN/Hotmail, it is their seemingly random use of "HMOBHMOE" (from memory that may not be exactly right) as the Original-Recipient, which is otherwise always reported as the same as the final. Like AOL, they do not report the Original-Recipient in general. Now, to be fair, the Original-Recipient is an optional component of the report. However, as list managers, I'm sure we all appreciate its intrinsic value. How else are you to track down a subscriber who has had their email forwarded 1, 2, 3, etc., times before it finally fails. (Okay, yes, I know there are other infrastructure issues that are in play here, but the point is still valid.) Yes, there are always VERPs, but then the whole point is with 3464 you don't need them and you get a HUGE performance win for large lists (at the list server and the $BIGISP receiving server). And, if they tell me who the actual subscriber is I will actually remove them from the list; a win for both of us! As most of us have never worked for a major ISP, and are unlikely to do so, perhaps someone could analyze what concerns or problems large ISP's may have with RFC 3464 compliance. I really doubt they're all being non-compliant just out of spite. I don't think they do it out of spite. I think they do it for the money out of ignorance. We wouldn't be a capitalist society if this were not so. Jim From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 10:48:39 2003 Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9C119636A for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 10:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-025 #44856) with ESMTP id <0HB6008KTSA2C3@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:49:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:48:47 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-reply-to: <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> To: List Managers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> X-Archive-Number: 200303/11 X-Sequence-Number: 1329 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, Vivek Khera wrote: >> If sites would >> use them (and use them correctly) we wouldn't need VERPs, which >> kill performance unnecessarily. And we wouldn't need probes to >> find bad email addresses. I disagree. DSN's report the final recipient, not necessarily the address that is in your mailing list. This does not have to be true, which is precisely my point. The Original-Recipient is the place to be carrying around the actual subscriber address. Of course, it requires all the MTAs along the forwarding path to be "playing nice".... Bigfoot is a great example of a forwarding service provider that obfuscates the original delivery address. And the list goes on.... Jim From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 11:00:01 2003 Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE684195AC4 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-025 #44856) with ESMTP id <0HB6008NNST0C3@eListX.com> for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:00:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:00:09 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Questions for those who have this information In-reply-to: <18455.1046714694@kanga.nu> To: List Managers Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <20030302165032.31605.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <15971.32979.395554.970962@onceler.int.kciLink.com> <18455.1046714694@kanga.nu> X-Archive-Number: 200303/12 X-Sequence-Number: 1330 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, J C Lawrence wrote: On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:20:35 -0500 Vivek Khera wrote: > I disagree. DSN's report the final recipient, not necessarily the > address that is in your mailing list. Quite. Many things would be far more useful if alias translations were reported in the Received: headers. (I do it here under Exim, which makes filtering mail from multiple sources (eg root, webmaster, postmaster, newsmaster, listmaster, etc) far easier. To be fair, since I mentioned Bigfoot in my response to Vivek's message, this is also true of their service. But this misses the point. Automated processing of failures by having to parse Received: headers is unnecessarily complex and doesn't work all the time. Although frequently trivial to do manually that is not a solution that scales well. Further, alias expansions in Received headers only works when their is one recipient. This is true if you are using VERPS (or a moral equivalent) or if you are only delivering to one recipient at a receiving site. So, again, this does not scale and is a HUGE performance lose. In contrast, if DSNs were used automatic processing is almost trivial once you've written the parsing code. Jim From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 11:48:10 2003 Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9F81959F7 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (A17-129-100-225.apple.com [17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h23Jm8Yv020161 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:48:08 -0800 Received: from plaidworks.com (vg0602e-dhcp175.apple.com [17.216.21.175]) by scv2.apple.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h23Jm7Q13829 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:48:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:48:09 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists From: Chuq Von Rospach To: List list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Archive-Number: 200303/13 X-Sequence-Number: 1331 Word of warning. We had an opt-in list spammed over the weekend someone subscribed to (and confirmed subscription to) one of our lists and then posted an ad for an adult site, using a hotmail address which they then abandoned (it started bouncing shortly thereafter). The subscription came from a dsl line attached to wannadoo.nl. apprpropriate abuse complaints are going out, but admins ought to be aware we've seen someone willing to go through the confirmations to get the spam in. without giving the site too much publicity, you might want to content block any message mentioning happyhug in the com TLD. so far, we've found three lists from two hotmail addresses. it doesn't look like it was scripted, it looks like an individual. chuq -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 12:03:48 2003 Received: from claude.jabberwocky.com (walrus.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.60.130.129]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65282195FB2 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by claude.jabberwocky.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h23K3it06356 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:03:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:03:44 -0500 From: David Shaw To: List list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Message-ID: <20030303200344.GH29217@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: List list References: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> X-PGP-Key: 99242560 / 7D92 FD31 3AB6 F373 4CC5 9CA1 DB69 8D71 9924 2560 X-Request-PGP: http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is New User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Archive-Number: 200303/14 X-Sequence-Number: 1332 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 11:48:09AM -0800, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > > Word of warning. We had an opt-in list spammed over the weekend someone > subscribed to (and confirmed subscription to) one of our lists and then > posted an ad for an adult site, using a hotmail address which they then > abandoned (it started bouncing shortly thereafter). Same thing happened here. All the public lists here are configured to require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber so the message did not go out onto the list. David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2rc1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc iD8DBQE+Y7Ug4mZch0nhy8kRArlJAJsHo1QrXBTikMN31AYka0Wa/YdlbgCgiget Ic59DwO2z5KpZ2MFKlsLxCY= =0xFz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 12:06:42 2003 Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC5719629D for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:06:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29A7982C3 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:06:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009301c2e1c0$50db1260$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List list" References: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:05:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Archive-Number: 200303/15 X-Sequence-Number: 1333 Chuq wrote, | We had an opt-in list spammed over the weekend someone | subscribed to (and confirmed subscription to) one of our lists and then | posted an ad for an adult site, using a hotmail address which they then | abandoned (it started bouncing shortly thereafter). Can a user close a Hotmail address? I was under the impression that the only way was to decline to log into it for long enough that MS cancels it on you. It is possible that the perpetrator deliberately loaded its to quota so that any incoming mail would be bounced for going over quota; Chuq didn't say what reason the bounces gave. | ... we've seen someone willing to go through the confirmations to get | the spam in. Have we seen anyone willing to participate in on-topic discussion before getting the spam in? Maybe moderating new users is still effective. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 12:32:19 2003 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E36FE196070 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:32:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 14393 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 2003 20:32:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:32:16 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/16 X-Sequence-Number: 1334 > Word of warning. We had an opt-in list spammed over the weekend someone > subscribed to (and confirmed subscription to) one of our lists and then > posted an ad for an adult site, using a hotmail address which they then > abandoned (it started bouncing shortly thereafter). I have long recommended unlinking subscribing from granting list posting privileges. In my case, some of my ezmlm-idx based lists use a four day waiting period, others (mostly small lists) only have posting privileges granted manually. While it is possible for a spammer to forge around subscriber address checks, I cannot recall a single instance of this happening on my lists in several years, and only one example of a spammer who hung around long enough to get around the waiting period. I have perl scripts which peruse the logs for new subscribers and activate posting privileges, and also perl scripts that I can 'bounce' e-mail to which activate or de-activate posting privileges for the poster. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 12:39:16 2003 Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024B0196005 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (A17-129-100-225.apple.com [17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h23KdEYv003690 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:39:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:39:13 -0800 Received: from plaidworks.com (vg0602e-dhcp175.apple.com [17.216.21.175]) by scv2.apple.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h23Kd7Q21310; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:39:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:39:09 -0800 Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: "List list" To: "David W. Tamkin" From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: <009301c2e1c0$50db1260$21985742@ord351473> Message-Id: <2F9983AB-4DB8-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Archive-Number: 200303/17 X-Sequence-Number: 1335 On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:05 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote: > It is possible that the perpetrator deliberately loaded its to quota > so that > any incoming mail would be bounced for going over quota; Chuq didn't > say what > reason the bounces gave. it was mailbox unavailable, not mailbox full. > Have we seen anyone willing to participate in on-topic discussion > before > getting the spam in? Maybe moderating new users is still effective. yes, but only where the spam was targetted at that list (i.e., quicktime products on a quicktime list) > -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech chuqui@plaidworks.com -- http://www.plaidworks.com/chuqui/blog/ No! No! Dead girl, OFF the table! -- Shrek From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 13:00:18 2003 Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A752196106 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:00:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3E0984E8 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:00:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00cc01c2e1c7$cab9a220$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List list" References: <2F9983AB-4DB8-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:56:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Archive-Number: 200303/18 X-Sequence-Number: 1336 I asked, | > Have we seen anyone willing to participate in on-topic discussion | > before getting the spam in? Chuq responded, | yes, but only where the spam was targetted at that list (i.e., | quicktime products on a quicktime list) That type surely was hand-typed, and so were the same spammer's on-topic posts that preceded it, so it won't be coming in huge batches. I don't see how they can possibly be automating the submission of enough on-topic posts to get their moderation flags cleared, but completing a confirmation process *could* be automated and lead to much outpouring of spam. Now to wait a few minutes until some dip on this list decides that my recognizing degrees among spam is a pro-spam position and flames me for it. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 13:01:58 2003 Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BAE41963F2 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-2k.climber.org (12-236-47-35.client.attbi.com[12.236.47.35]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53) with SMTP id <20030303210156053001sgo7e>; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:01:56 +0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> X-Sender: steveeckert@mail.attbi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:01:53 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: SRE Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Archive-Number: 200303/19 X-Sequence-Number: 1337 At 12:32 PM 3/3/2003, nolan@celery.tssi.com wrote: >I have perl scripts which peruse the logs for new subscribers and >activate posting privileges, and also perl scripts that I can 'bounce' >e-mail to which activate or de-activate posting privileges for the poster. Mj2 (the unreleased-but-done rewrite of Majordomo) and Listserv both can set "new subscriber" flags that moderate individual subscribers until some event clears the flag. I stopped several dedicated spammers with a personal grudge by moderating new subscribers until the list owner clears the flag. At 12:05 PM 3/3/2003, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Have we seen anyone willing to participate in on-topic discussion before >getting the spam in? Maybe moderating new users is still effective. The bad guys can't seem to make more than one useful post in a row! I've found it to be remarkably easy and effective to screen the first post and then turn them loose. It's not too much of a workload to approve 1 or 2 posts for new subscribers, then clear the post blocking flag, especially since most people seem to lurk instead of post actively, and all but one or two people have been grateful to know why the signal-to-noise ratio has stayed so good for so many years. Steve From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 13:14:53 2003 Received: from minneapolis.mnjazz.com (circles.radparker.com [209.98.250.78]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5254195F82 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:14:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mnjazz.com (localhost.mnjazz.com [127.0.0.1]) by minneapolis.mnjazz.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7780410383 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:18:15 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3E63C5CB.E5248379@mnjazz.com> Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:14:51 -0600 From: Al Iverson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Managers Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists References: <2F9983AB-4DB8-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/20 X-Sequence-Number: 1338 Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > > On Monday, March 3, 2003, at 12:05 PM, David W. Tamkin wrote: > > > It is possible that the perpetrator deliberately loaded its to quota > > so that > > any incoming mail would be bounced for going over quota; Chuq didn't > > say what > > reason the bounces gave. > > it was mailbox unavailable, not mailbox full. Eh, maybe the person was spamming elsewhere and the account got nuked. -- Al Iverson -- iverson@mnjazz.com -- Minneapolis, Minnesota My pockets hurt. http://www.spamresource.com/ Support Jazz in Minnesota! -- http://www.mnjazz.com/ All opinions are mine alone unless I state otherwise. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 13:49:21 2003 Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8A0195F20 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 13:49:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-130-135.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.130.135] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pxo9-0005vM-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:49:13 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303144729.00b9e0e0@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:49:13 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: <20030303200344.GH29217@jabberwocky.com> References: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/21 X-Sequence-Number: 1339 At 01:03 PM 3/3/2003, David Shaw wrote: > All the public lists here are configured to >require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new subscriber? ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 14:03:24 2003 Received: from claude.jabberwocky.com (walrus.ne.client2.attbi.com [24.60.130.129]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44767195F20 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from dshaw@localhost) by claude.jabberwocky.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h23M3GQ07958 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:03:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:03:16 -0500 From: David Shaw To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Message-ID: <20030303220316.GK29217@jabberwocky.com> Mail-Followup-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com References: <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <0F6712F4-4DB1-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303144729.00b9e0e0@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303144729.00b9e0e0@pop.earthlink.net> X-PGP-Key: 99242560 / 7D92 FD31 3AB6 F373 4CC5 9CA1 DB69 8D71 9924 2560 X-Request-PGP: http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc X-Phase-Of-Moon: The Moon is New User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.3i X-Archive-Number: 200303/22 X-Sequence-Number: 1340 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Mar 03, 2003 at 02:49:13PM -0700, Bob Bish wrote: > At 01:03 PM 3/3/2003, David Shaw wrote: > > All the public lists here are configured to > >require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber > > How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new > subscriber? Manually. I use Mailman, and have it configured to moderate everyone at first. If/when they post enough to convince me they are for real, I remove their moderation. The latest version of Mailman is set up to make this very easy. David -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2rc1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://www.jabberwocky.com/david/keys.asc iD4DBQE+Y9Ek4mZch0nhy8kRAi0VAJiK+YGy7hUJfsUZZ0TtNq5xOevLAJ9uTSzf gzn/fo/8dU0ByWJgCqEV2w== =kkZf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 14:15:37 2003 Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B9F5195A44 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767AB986A5 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:15:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501c2e1d2$3dd44b20$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: "List list" References: <2F9983AB-4DB8-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:09:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Archive-Number: 200303/23 X-Sequence-Number: 1341 When I theorized, | > It is possible that the perpetrator deliberately loaded its to quota | > so that | > any incoming mail would be bounced for going over quota; Chuq didn't | > say what | > reason the bounces gave. Chuq answered, | it was mailbox unavailable, not mailbox full. In a fantasy world, that could mean that Hotmail had shut it off for spamming. Seriously, Hotmail might just coincidentally have been having problems. AFAIK there is no way for a user to cancel a Hotmail account except by several months of disuse. We can rule out forged From: lines pointing to a Hotmail address that never existed, because that address had received the confirmation request and perhaps some posts or digests. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 15:11:20 2003 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC5519600B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-130-135.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.130.135] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18pz5a-0006gb-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 15:11:18 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:11:18 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> References: <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/24 X-Sequence-Number: 1342 > All the public lists here are configured to >require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber > How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new > subscriber? >Mj2 (the unreleased-but-done rewrite of Majordomo) and Listserv both >can set "new subscriber" flags >Manually. I use Mailman, and have it configured to moderate everyone..... It would be helpful, at least to me, if people could mention the list software being used when making statements about features, etc. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 16:34:45 2003 Received: from host4.ctc.net (host4.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58619195B7E for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host4.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20030304003602.PSGP3575.host4@katie.vnet.net> for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:36:02 -0500 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h240Yaj05170 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:34:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:34:36 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: <00cc01c2e1c7$cab9a220$21985742@ord351473> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/25 X-Sequence-Number: 1343 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, David W. Tamkin wrote: > Now to wait a few minutes until some dip on this list decides > that my recognizing degrees among spam is a pro-spam position > and flames me for it. At the risk of being even more pro-spam that you, I expressly allow limited on-topic commercial posts. We've discussed allowing ads with various restrictions before on listmanagers. I've averaged less than one abuse of comercial posting privileges a year. Most of those abuses have been a matter of degree: excessive length, excessive frequency, off-topic yard-sale type post from a regular participant. I've never had a sex ad, a stock tip or make money fast sort of spam... Had quite a few human propagated viruses (tell everyone you know variants: modem tax, delete file X, watch out for something-or-another, etc.). Haven't seen one of these for a year or two. I set new subscribers to moderate their first two posts using Lyris software... I strongly suspect one approval would catch the vast majority of spammers. Even Chuq's case where a spammer went through the subscribe confirmation process is quite rare. Let's hope it stays that way. - murr - Cc: list deleted From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 16:58:26 2003 Received: from scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E121959F3 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 66-215-216-48.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net ([66.215.216.48] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18q0lD-0006pN-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:58:23 -0800 Received: from betty.goldmark.private ([192.168.1.51]) by lehel.goldmark.private with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 18q0lD-0007UY-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:58:23 -0800 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by betty.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 4.10) id HB79DA-0002QM-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:58:22 -0800 Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:58:22 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@jeffrey-goldbergs-computer.local Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/26 X-Sequence-Number: 1344 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, murr rhame wrote: > At the risk of being even more pro-spam that you, I expressly > allow limited on-topic commercial posts. Me, too. The vendor (and list participant) asked me first. We worked out a few restrictions, and I agreed. They can make a general announcement once every 3 months. And if a reasonable answer to some query would refer to their product, they should feel free to answer the query (noting who they are). I had a few complaints after the first announcement, and posted my rationale asking people to complain to me if they were unhappy with my decision. It was largely supported. > We've discussed allowing ads with various restrictions before on > listmanagers. I've averaged less than one abuse of comercial posting > privileges a year. Most of those abuses have been a matter of degree: > excessive length, excessive frequency, off-topic yard-sale type post > from a regular participant. Again, that was the bulk of my discussion with the vendor in question. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice Hate spam? Boycott MCI! http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/anti-spam/mci/ From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 16:58:50 2003 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 87CAA195F0B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18763 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 2003 00:58:40 -0000 Message-ID: <20030304005840.18762.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:58:40 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/27 X-Sequence-Number: 1345 Forwarded message: > > At the risk of being even more pro-spam that you, I expressly > allow limited on-topic commercial posts. We've discussed > allowing ads with various restrictions before on listmanagers. This just re-emphasizes the point that every list is different, and any global definitions are likely to run into lists that have good reasons to be considered exceptions. Justice Stewart's definition of pornography (I know it when I see it) is quite applicable to spam, and thus equally difficult to legislate. -- MIke Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 17:21:59 2003 Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBFA195A8C for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ee-2k.climber.org (12-236-47-35.client.attbi.com[12.236.47.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02) with SMTP id <20030304012156002008116ve>; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:21:57 +0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> X-Sender: steveeckert@mail.attbi.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:09:59 -0800 To: Bob Bish From: SRE Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Archive-Number: 200303/28 X-Sequence-Number: 1346 At 03:11 PM 3/3/2003, Bob Bish wrote: >> All the public lists here are configured to >>require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber > >> How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new subscriber? > >>Mj2 (the unreleased-but-done rewrite of Majordomo) and Listserv both >>can set "new subscriber" flags > >>Manually. I use Mailman, and have it configured to moderate everyone..... > > It would be helpful, at least to me, if people could mention the list software being used when making statements about features, etc. Didn't we all do that? Majordomo 2 (aka "Mj2), Listserv, and Mailman. Those are the names of the software packages involved, no?? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 17:33:38 2003 Received: from gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.84]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63744195A82 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:33:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-130-135.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.130.135] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18q1JE-0004Bz-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:33:32 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:33:30 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/29 X-Sequence-Number: 1347 > >> All the public lists here are configured to > >>require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber > > > >> How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new > subscriber? > > > >>Mj2 (the unreleased-but-done rewrite of Majordomo) and Listserv both > >>can set "new subscriber" flags > > > >>Manually. I use Mailman, and have it configured to moderate everyone..... > > > > It would be helpful, at least to me, if people could mention the list > software being used when making statements about features, etc. > >Didn't we all do that? Majordomo 2 (aka "Mj2), Listserv, and Mailman. >Those are the names of the software packages involved, no?? Look at the original quote (at the top). If I had known that was not something possible with majordomo 1.x, I would not have asked the question (the 2nd quote down from the top). It was the replies to that question which mentioned the list software being used. Since this list is hosted by GreatCircle, I thought it was a majordomo list (and the majority of majordomo users still run version 1.x). Since it apparently covers several different kinds of list software, I just think such confusion could be avoided. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 17:45:28 2003 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82F5A195A81 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:45:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h241jJO77955 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:45:19 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-To: Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:45:26 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in Message-ID: <76904953.1046724326@[192.168.254.79]> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Archive-Number: 200303/30 X-Sequence-Number: 1348 --On Monday, March 03, 2003 5:09 PM -0800 SRE wrote: > At 03:11 PM 3/3/2003, Bob Bish wrote: >>> All the public lists here are configured to >>> require moderation for the first post or three of a new subscriber >> >>> How does one configure for moderation of the first 3 posts of a new >>> subscriber? >> >>> Mj2 (the unreleased-but-done rewrite of Majordomo) and Listserv both >>> can set "new subscriber" flags >> >>> Manually. I use Mailman, and have it configured to moderate everyone..... >> >> It would be helpful, at least to me, if people could mention the list >> software being used when making statements about features, etc. > > Didn't we all do that? Majordomo 2 (aka "Mj2), Listserv, and Mailman. > Those are the names of the software packages involved, no?? I think he means their secret or "porn" names. For example: Majordomo 2 ....... Perl Choker Mailman ........... Mistress Python Listserv .......... "The Little General" etc. It's a reasonable request. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 17:52:54 2003 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF792195F56 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18q1bt-0001ZP-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:52:49 -0800 To: Jeffrey Goldberg Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: Message from Jeffrey Goldberg of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:58:22 PST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 17:52:49 -0800 Message-ID: <6038.1046742769@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence X-Archive-Number: 200303/31 X-Sequence-Number: 1349 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:58:22 -0800 (PST) Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, murr rhame wrote: >> At the risk of being even more pro-spam that you, I expressly allow >> limited on-topic commercial posts. Many of my members have commercial interests in the field, either for their own careers, or companies they own. I explicitly disallow commercial postings, with the relevant text from the list charter being: Note from the List Owner: The list has a number of members who work professionally in the field. Their presence raises certain concerns for intellectual property, trade secrets, copyrights, etc for the list and for list postings. The below should give an overview of this area, what I expect of list members, commercially affiliated or otherwise, as well as the intended character of the list. As list owner I expect all list members to be responsible for what they post. The rules are obvious: If there is something your company or affiliations does not want publicised, then don't post it to the list. If you see one of your commercial or other partners post something to the list that shouldn't have been, then don't bring it up on the list -- take it to direct email. Raising such issues on the list will be used as an excuse for removing membership. Please do not use this as an alibi to start adding disclaimers to your posts. You are the members on this list, not your companies. If it isn't your opinion don't write it. If you are reporting someone else's opinion, state it as such. If a post is written as a representative of your company or affiliation, then identify it as such. Adding a signature which identifies your affiliation is not enough. That can be too easily automated and is not an explicit statement of representation. A leading paragraph identifying the source or representation placed above all the textual body including the attributions, will do (keep it short). Commercial grandstanding, advertisements, chest puffing, or other forms of promotion are not appreciated on the list and will be rewarded with removal of membership. The list is an expressly non-commercial venue. It is intended as an intelligent and free discussion by peers in the field, both hobbyist and professional. Membership of the list is not a right. You are here as my guests. This is a private list run as a personal contribution to the field. I trust the list's membership to behave accordingly. Posting to the list may be considered analagous to having a conversation in my living room using bull horns while the windows are open and everyone has tape recorders. There is no secrecy, or control of the dissemination of data once it is posted. And on a final note: Attempting to invalidate or discourage a discussion or avenue of investigation on the list because it strays too close to a commercial project's field or other such interest will be deemed an intentional personal insult and due cause for permanent removal from the list along with all associates. Thankyou. J C Lawrence > Me, too. The vendor (and list participant) asked me first. We worked > out a few restrictions, and I agreed. They can make a general > announcement once every 3 months. And if a reasonable answer to some > query would refer to their product, they should feel free to answer > the query (noting who they are). I had a few complaints after the > first announcement, and posted my rationale asking people to complain > to me if they were unhappy with my decision. It was largely > supported. I've had off-list toast-wars (not up to the level of flames) for the few members I have who regularly walk the edge of the line in regard to commercial postings. Those members don't exact cross the line (they can't, its a hand moderated list), but they regularly approach the line and I equally regularly trim their posts back from the line (which is obvious to the list membership as I annotate the messages I trim). >> We've discussed allowing ads with various restrictions before on >> listmanagers. I've averaged less than one abuse of comercial posting >> privileges a year. Most of those abuses have been a matter of >> degree: excessive length, excessive frequency, off-topic yard-sale >> type post from a regular participant. > Again, that was the bulk of my discussion with the vendor in question. My main offender is a local company who was instrumental in arranging hosting for the list servers etc. They are young, eager, aggressive, and media hungry. The CEO has stated that my posting requitements (which are more than just the above) are, "prissy", but has not attempted to act or persuade against them. The company sponsors and collects articles and columns in regard to the field for their website and then advertise those texts on my list in less than a subtle self-promoting manner (even after I've castrated their postings down). This has raised hackles with the rest of the list who freely admit that my handling of the scene as moderator is acceptable, but seem to think that I and the list are being abused by said company persistently walking the borders of acceptability. Funny really. I've got list members who flame when they think someone is abusing or wasting their moderator's time. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 18:32:13 2003 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2776A195B31 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@washdc3-ar1-4-46-251-038.washdc3.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.38]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16939; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:31:27 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: admin@lofcom.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:30:48 -0500 To: Bob Bish , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in X-Archive-Number: 200303/32 X-Sequence-Number: 1350 At 8:33 PM -0500 3/3/03, Bob Bish is rumored to have typed: > Since this list is hosted by GreatCircle, I thought it was a majordomo > list (and the majority of majordomo users still run version 1.x). Many people seem to make that mistake, resulting in some threads (not this particular one, certainly, but others could be used as examples) which are not relevant to those of us who prefer not using majordomo. The complete description of this list is on the greatcircle.com website, from which I quote: "The List-Managers mailing list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms, techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package). Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are not appropriate for the List-Managers mailing list." Seems pretty straightforward, so I'm not sure how anyone could be confused. But it still frequently happens. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 18:46:15 2003 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD5B8195AD2 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:46:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-130-135.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.130.135] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18q2RX-0005w9-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:46:11 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:46:10 -0700 To: Charlie Summers , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/33 X-Sequence-Number: 1351 At 07:30 PM 3/3/2003, Charlie Summers wrote: >"The List-Managers mailing list is for discussions of issues related to >managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, >mechanisms, techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about >specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list dedicated >to that particular package). > >Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for instance, >Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are not appropriate for the >List-Managers mailing list." > > Seems pretty straightforward, so I'm not sure how anyone could be >confused. Not really. This does not say that this list is for discussion of ANY kind of list software. On the contrary, the implication seems to be the opposite (last phrase of first, and entire second paragraph). Again, being hosted by GreatCircle does imply, at least to me, that it would have something to do with Majordomo. It would be like a mailing list hosted by Ford which is about engine maintenance. One would think it would pertain to Fords. BTW, unlike most people who join mailing lists (), I DID read the above before joining. I still got the idea this was a majordomo-oriented group. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 18:55:51 2003 Received: from [10.0.1.22] (ppp29.vic.padsl.internode.on.net [150.101.208.28]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35D87195A8C; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:55:48 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: brent@mycroft.greatcircle.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:55:46 +1100 To: Bob Bish , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent Chapman Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200303/34 X-Sequence-Number: 1352 At 6:33 PM -0700 3/3/03, Bob Bish wrote: > Since this list is hosted by GreatCircle, I thought it was a majordomo list List-Managers is explicitly software-independent; see . If you want Majordomo-specific stuff, that's what our "Majordomo-Users" list is for. >Since it apparently covers several different kinds of list software, >I just think such confusion could be avoided. Agreed. Some folks aren't careful about that, and I too wish they would be. -Brent -- Brent Chapman From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 18:59:35 2003 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86A9196153 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 18:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h242wjO81854 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:58:46 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-To: Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:58:52 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in Message-ID: <81311265.1046728732@[192.168.254.79]> In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Archive-Number: 200303/35 X-Sequence-Number: 1353 --On Monday, March 03, 2003 7:46 PM -0700 Bob Bish wrote: > Not really. This does not say that this list is for discussion of ANY > kind of list software. Any PARTICULAR kind of list software. Since lists are managed in software (plus wetware), general software-ish questions are kind of difficult to avoid. A lot of times the answer to a question of the form "How do I accomplish X" is something like: MJ2 does it this way, Mailman does that, Listserv doesn't do it, if you have further specific questions, see the lists for those packages. > ... Again, being > hosted by GreatCircle does imply, at least to me, that it would have > something to do with Majordomo. It would be like a mailing list hosted > by Ford which is about engine maintenance. One would think it would > pertain to Fords. One would be wrong, and a glance at the archives would confirm it. I am studying flying at a Cessna flying school, but they're teaching me general aviation, not Cessna aviation. BTW, unlike most people who join mailing lists > (), I DID read the above before joining. I still got the idea this was > a majordomo-oriented group. Glad that's fixed. Next issue? From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 19:08:18 2003 Received: from host4.ctc.net (host4.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4F6E19624B for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 19:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host4.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20030304030936.SJDS3575.host4@katie.vnet.net> for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:09:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h2438A807382 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:08:10 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:08:10 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: <6038.1046742769@kanga.nu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/36 X-Sequence-Number: 1354 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, J C Lawrence wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, murr rhame wrote: > > > > At the risk of being even more pro-spam than you, I > > > expressly allow limited on-topic commercial posts. > > Many of my members have commercial interests in the field, > either for their own careers, or companies they own. I > explicitly disallow commercial postings, with the relevant > text from the list charter being: I suspect most lists have at least some subscribers who have a commercial interest in the list topic. Allowing ads is definitely risky. I've always been nervous that vendors might get into an ad war or some such. With no direct costs for broadcasting their ads, there's no strong financial incentive not to post big and post often. Fortunately, most of the vendors on my list are members of the community served. They do have a vested interest in not bearing their ass in public. In practice, I haven't had a significant problem. On rare occasion, I've asked someone to ease off a bit. When I polled my subscribers, the consensus was to keep things as they are (a few low-key ads, on-topic). Your mileage _will_ vary. I'm certain there are many lists where it would be appropriate to ban _all_ advertisements. You smithed a couple of nicely phrase paragraphs (below). With a little list-specific tuning, these could make a nice addition to many list charters. > Commercial grandstanding, advertisements, chest puffing, or other > forms of promotion are not appreciated on the list and will be > rewarded with removal of membership. The list is an expressly > non-commercial venue. It is intended as an intelligent and free > discussion by peers in the field, both hobbyist and professional. > Posting to the list may be considered analogous to having a > conversation in my living room using bull horns while the windows are > open and everyone has tape recorders. There is no secrecy, or control > of the dissemination of data once it is posted. ---------------------------------------------------------------- > My main offender is a local company who was instrumental in > arranging hosting for the list servers etc. They are young, > eager, aggressive, and media hungry. The CEO has stated that > my posting requirements (which are more than just the above) > are, "prissy", but has not attempted to act or persuade > against them. Good that you've stuck to your principles. Super gun-ho business folks can be a bother to reign in. > Funny really. I've got list members who flame when they > think someone is abusing or wasting their moderator's time. That's probably not uncommon. If you run a list well and it provides a useful forum, list members can be very protective. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 20:05:48 2003 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EEDD196040 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 20:05:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-130-135.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.130.135] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18q3gY-0000BR-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 20:05:46 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303210019.02af1b90@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:05:46 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in In-Reply-To: <81311265.1046728732@[192.168.254.79]> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/37 X-Sequence-Number: 1355 Those who manage mailing lists must certainly understand how the written word can be read very differently by different people. OK, I'm clear on the scope of this list. Since it does encompass any and all kinds of list software, my original suggestion (from which we've strayed a bit) becomes even more valid. Many, if not most, day-to-day list maintenance issues are software-specific. If posters would specify the software used, it would avoid irrelevant questions like mine and save a lot of bandwidth from the resulting tangential threads. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Mar 3 21:37:27 2003 Received: from dingo.home.kanga.nu (ocker.kanga.nu [198.144.204.213]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4813A196038 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 2003 21:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=kanga.nu) by dingo.home.kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 18q57E-0003Vo-00; Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:37:24 -0800 To: murr rhame Cc: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: Message from murr rhame of "Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:08:10 EST." References: X-face: ?^_yw@fA`CEX&}--=*&XqXbF-oePvxaT4(kyt\nwM9]{]N!>b^K}-Mb9 YH%saz^>nq5usBlD"s{(.h'_w|U^3ldUq7wVZz$`u>MB(-4$f\a6Eu8.e=Pf\ X-image-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/kanga.face.tiff X-url: http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:37:24 -0800 Message-ID: <13503.1046756244@kanga.nu> From: J C Lawrence X-Archive-Number: 200303/38 X-Sequence-Number: 1356 On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:08:10 -0500 (EST) murr rhame wrote: > On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, J C Lawrence wrote: >>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2003, murr rhame wrote: > I'm certain there are many lists where it would be appropriate to ban > _all_ advertisements. The most common form of advertising I get, and which I expressly encourage and allow is: Oh yeah, and I'm looking for work|have a great product for this|work at a company which does things like this|wrote the best version of this I ever saw|etc. > You smithed a couple of nicely phrase paragraphs (below). With a > little list-specific tuning, these could make a nice addition to many > list charters. Thanks. Please feel free to adapt and use freely. >> Posting to the list may be considered analogous to having a >> conversation in my living room using bull horns while the windows are >> open and everyone has tape recorders. There is no secrecy, or control >> of the dissemination of data once it is posted. That one is particularly popular with my list members. It gets frequently quoted or referred to off-list. -- J C Lawrence ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 05:44:27 2003 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366DC196200 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 05:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id 1B2261BF668; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:44:26 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15972.44473.965486.11127@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:44:25 -0500 To: Tom Neff Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in References: <76904953.1046724326@[192.168.254.79]> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 11) "Native Windows TTY Support" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Steer the motion of a roach (taken from H. Lee) X-Url: http://barry.warsaw.us X-Archive-Number: 200303/39 X-Sequence-Number: 1357 >>>>> "TN" == Tom Neff writes: | Majordomo 2 ....... Perl Choker | Mailman ........... Mistress Python | Listserv .......... "The Little General" Ah, you've stumbled on Mailman's secret motto: "Is that a snake in your pants or are you just happy to hack me?" :) -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 07:31:04 2003 Received: from yertle.kcilink.com (yertle.kcilink.com [216.194.193.105]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA6391959DA for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 07:31:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from onceler.int.kciLink.com (onceler.int.kcilink.com [192.168.7.2]) by yertle.kcilink.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2242178C for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by onceler.int.kciLink.com (Postfix, from userid 100) id 7D0FE3D11; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:31:01 -0500 (EST) From: Vivek Khera MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15972.50868.824360.768676@onceler.int.kciLink.com> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:31:00 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List software (was: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 12) "Portable Code" XEmacs Lucid X-Archive-Number: 200303/40 X-Sequence-Number: 1358 >>>>> "BB" == Bob Bish writes: >> Seems pretty straightforward, so I'm not sure how anyone could be >> confused. BB> Not really. This does not say that this list is for discussion of ANY BB> kind of list software. On the contrary, the implication seems to BB> be the opposite (last phrase of first, and entire second BB> paragraph). Again, being hosted by GreatCircle does imply, at BB> least to me, that it would have something to do with Majordomo. You assume that everyone out there knows that Majordomo has something to do with GreatCircle. If you never installed MD then you most likely don't know this. I see no such implication in the list description. I don't run majordomo, nor do I plan to, but I joined this list because it is about running lists, not about any particular software. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 08:33:19 2003 Received: from host3.ctc.net (host3.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.68]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12094195A3E for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 08:33:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host3.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20030304163409.DTAC1975.host3@katie.vnet.net> for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:34:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h24GXBG16249 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Subject: Re: List software In-Reply-To: <15972.50868.824360.768676@onceler.int.kciLink.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/41 X-Sequence-Number: 1359 When this thread started, someone asked that people mention what software they are using when they discuss a software solution to an administrative problem. For example, not all software packages support moderation status on a per-subscriber basis or a waiting period before new subscribers can post. In my humble opinion, it is appropriate to mention the software you're using if you've found a software solution to a list management problem. On the other hand, I hope this forum does not become a software installation and maintenance support list. As an example, I use Lyris software. If I had a specific problem configuring or working with Lyris, I'd take that question to the Lyris tech support mailing list. Majordomo, Listproc, Mailman, Listserv and other software packages all have forums for tech support. These forums are usually mentioned in the manuals or home pages for their respective software packages. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 09:11:05 2003 Received: from grassyhill.org (grassyhill.org [208.231.0.71]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17E07195A3E for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 09:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by grassyhill.org (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id h24HAxO21713 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 12:11:00 -0500 (EST) X-Envelope-To: Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:11:02 -0500 From: Tom Neff To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List software Message-ID: <132441593.1046779862@[192.168.254.79]> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.0 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Archive-Number: 200303/42 X-Sequence-Number: 1360 --On Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:33 AM -0500 murr rhame wrote: > When this thread started, someone asked that people mention what > software they are using when they discuss a software solution to > an administrative problem. yeah, but the request was attached to a series of messages where people had done *precisely* that, which is why things took a weird turn. People generally do say what software they use here when they discuss software settings or solutions. (one can check the archives.) It's kind of a non-issue. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 10:35:59 2003 Received: from mail.wooz.org (dsl093-082-039.wdc1.dsl.speakeasy.net [66.93.82.39]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5364195F2C for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 10:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail.wooz.org (Postfix, from userid 500) id DDA931BF668; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:35:59 -0500 (EST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15972.61967.768280.457898@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:35:59 -0500 To: murr rhame Cc: Subject: Re: List software References: X-Mailer: VM 7.07 under 21.4 (patch 11) "Native Windows TTY Support" XEmacs Lucid From: bwarsaw@python.org (Barry A. Warsaw) X-Attribution: BAW X-Oblique-Strategy: Disciplined self-indulgence X-Url: http://barry.warsaw.us X-Archive-Number: 200303/43 X-Sequence-Number: 1361 >>>>> "mr" == murr rhame writes: mr> Majordomo, Listproc, Mailman, Listserv and other software mr> packages all have forums for tech support. These forums are mr> usually mentioned in the manuals or home pages for their mr> respective software packages. Agreed. One of the reasons I'm on this list is to get some cross-pollination and discuss general techniques that are helpful to folks running lists. Any specific Mailman implementations of those techniques or ideas should be (and are) discussed on the Mailman specific lists. -Barry From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 11:02:12 2003 Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE1A195A4C for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:02:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-135-80.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.135.80] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qHg2-0003My-01 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:02:11 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030304120001.00b6f3a0@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:02:10 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: List software In-Reply-To: <132441593.1046779862@[192.168.254.79]> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/44 X-Sequence-Number: 1362 At 10:11 AM 3/4/2003, Tom Neff wrote: >--On Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:33 AM -0500 murr rhame wrote: > > When this thread started, someone asked that people mention what > > software they are using when they discuss a software solution to > > an administrative problem. > >yeah, but the request was attached to a series of messages where people had >done *precisely* that, which is why things took a weird turn. Wrong. The question was asked first, prompting the responses mentioning the software used. THIS is the non-issue here. The point remains, it would be helpful (I hate repeating myself) if list software could be mentioned when a post is software-specific. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 11:14:02 2003 Received: from albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net (albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A54C19625D for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:14:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-135-80.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.135.80] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qHrT-0007k9-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:13:59 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030304121245.00bafa98@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:14:00 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Re: List software In-Reply-To: <15972.50868.824360.768676@onceler.int.kciLink.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303182412.02af04d8@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303170910.02c497e0@mail.attbi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303160346.00bb4440@pop.earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> <5.2.0.9.2.20030303193728.02b1cd18@pop.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/45 X-Sequence-Number: 1363 At 08:31 AM 3/4/2003, Vivek Khera wrote: >You assume that everyone out there knows that Majordomo has something >to do with GreatCircle. If you never installed MD then you most >likely don't know this. Unless one does a web search for "majordomo". ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 11:35:26 2003 Received: from avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FF0195F97; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-135-80.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.135.80] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qIBw-0003cz-00; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 11:35:08 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030304123209.00bb7da8@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 12:35:08 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: List manager position in NYC open Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/46 X-Sequence-Number: 1364 I was contacted by a Bryan Calka about a list manager position which is open in NYC. I do not know any particulars about this, the software being used, the kind of list or company involved, or anything else. If you would like to contact Bryan, his e-mail address is: bcalka@yahoo.com ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 14:42:40 2003 Received: from www.lofcom.com (oldradio.net [216.105.35.108]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21EDA1965D6 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.123.10] (lof@washdc3-ar1-4-46-251-038.washdc3.dsl-verizon.net [4.46.251.38]) by www.lofcom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09795; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:42:15 -0500 X-Envelope-From: charlie@lofcom.com X-Sender: lof@oldradio.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2F9983AB-4DB8-11D7-B134-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> References: <009301c2e1c0$50db1260$21985742@ord351473> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:36:48 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Charlie Summers Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists X-Archive-Number: 200303/47 X-Sequence-Number: 1365 Re: the "Cheerful Squeeze" spammers... Looks like they're still at it...the procmail mailing list just distributed a copy of the thing; headers point to Hotmail receiving the thing from (as Chuq noted) an aDSL pool IP at wanadoo.nl. Charlie From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 15:34:55 2003 Received: from mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net (mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.48]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5CB1962D3 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 66-215-216-48.riv-eres.charterpipeline.net ([66.215.216.48] helo=lehel.goldmark.private) by mallard.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qLvv-0006SU-00 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:34:51 -0800 Received: from betty.goldmark.private ([192.168.1.51]) by lehel.goldmark.private with esmtp (Exim 3.13 #1) id 18qLvs-0007pT-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:34:48 -0800 Received: from jeffrey (helo=localhost) by betty.goldmark.private with local-esmtp (Exim 4.10) id HB9060-0000CT-00 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 15:34:48 -0800 Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 15:34:47 -0800 (PST) From: Jeffrey Goldberg X-X-Sender: jeffrey@betty.goldmark.private Reply-To: Jeffrey Goldberg To: List Managers Mailing list Subject: Re: warning: spamming confirmed opt-in lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <009301c2e1c0$50db1260$21985742@ord351473> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/48 X-Sequence-Number: 1366 On Tue, 4 Mar 2003, Charlie Summers wrote: > Looks like they're still at it...the procmail mailing list just > distributed a copy of the thing; headers point to Hotmail receiving the thing > from (as Chuq noted) an aDSL pool IP at wanadoo.nl. A list I co-manage seems to have had something similar. A confirmed opt-in from a hotmail address, but the address started bouncing immediately. It looks like hotmail nuked it. Unfortunately, I only have limited control over that system, so I never saw the full subscription and confirmation messages. -j -- Jeffrey Goldberg http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice Hate spam? Boycott MCI! http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/anti-spam/mci/ From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 16:39:47 2003 Received: from grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net (grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.116]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5E2E196286; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-135-80.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.135.80] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by grouse.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qMwX-0000OR-00; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 16:39:33 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030304173603.028ba330@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:39:33 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Mail loops Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/49 X-Sequence-Number: 1367 Is anyone else getting a huge number of bounce messages all saying "too many hops", "mail loop detected", etc? I received over 500 of them in a 50-minute period! They started suddenly about 2 hours ago (maybe around 5:30pm EST). I need to know if this is a generalized problem (perhaps a hacking or virus attack on the Internet as a whole) or if there's a problem on our server's end. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 4 17:09:26 2003 Received: from conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net (conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.54]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557CB19643F; Tue, 4 Mar 2003 17:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from h-66-167-135-80.phndaz91.covad.net ([66.167.135.80] helo=Vaio.earthlink.net) by conure.mail.pas.earthlink.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 18qNPQ-0004sa-00; Tue, 04 Mar 2003 17:09:24 -0800 Message-Id: <5.2.0.9.2.20030304175358.00bb4390@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: bobbish@pop.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.0.9 Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 18:09:23 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com From: Bob Bish Subject: Mail loops - Found the problem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Archive-Number: 200303/50 X-Sequence-Number: 1368 It affected only one of my lists and was tracked down to one particular e-mail address on that list. It was at "princelaw.com" in case any other addresses there are doing the same thing and anyone here has one on a mailing list. The firewall and SMTP server at Prince Law (princelaw.com) are in a retransmission loop. ...Bob From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 07:38:50 2003 Received: from host4.ctc.net (host4.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9AC195A7B for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 07:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host4.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20030305154008.CNM3575.host4@katie.vnet.net> for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:40:08 -0500 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25FchF04019 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:38:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:38:43 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: Subject: Off-list Revenge In-Reply-To: <15972.61967.768280.457898@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/51 X-Sequence-Number: 1369 Just got a message from a subscriber who claims that he was fired in part as a result of a dispute from one of my lists. The guy who was fired made a rude remark. The other party complained to the fired guy's employer. Fired guy was subscribed using his work account. That's as much as I know so far... Anyone had a similar situation they are willing to discuss? - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 10:40:48 2003 Received: from celery.tssi.com (celery.tssi.com [198.147.197.6]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 652A5195F67 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 10:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 2399 invoked by uid 1000); 5 Mar 2003 18:40:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20030305184043.2398.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: nolan@celery.tssi.com Subject: Off-list Revenge (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:40:43 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/52 X-Sequence-Number: 1370 > Just got a message from a subscriber who claims that he was fired > in part as a result of a dispute from one of my lists. The guy > who was fired made a rude remark. The other party complained to > the fired guy's employer. Fired guy was subscribed using his > work account. That's as much as I know so far... Anyone had a > similar situation they are willing to discuss? I know of someone who quit his job over the issue of access to e-mail for non-business purposes, and I've heard of several threatened lawsuits arising from list flame wars, but so far as I know none were filed. (I've been threatened with lawsuits a few times as the List Manager, too.) I know of at least one case of an ISP being notified about a flame war that moved over to private e-mail which resulted in the account being deactivated. Most of the time, though, the ISP does nothing. -- Mike Nolan From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 11:32:44 2003 Received: from pageplanet.com (england.pageplanet.com [4.38.75.30]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853EE195A7C for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:32:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.4.0.14] (199.46.252.85) by pageplanet.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 3.1.4); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:32:26 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: tcora1@mail.ibmwr.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:33:46 -0500 To: murr rhame From: Tom Coradeschi Subject: Re: Off-list Revenge Cc: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Archive-Number: 200303/53 X-Sequence-Number: 1371 At 10:38 AM -0500 03/05/2003, murr rhame wrote: >Just got a message from a subscriber who claims that he was fired >in part as a result of a dispute from one of my lists. The guy >who was fired made a rude remark. The other party complained to >the fired guy's employer. Fired guy was subscribed using his >work account. That's as much as I know so far... Anyone had a >similar situation they are willing to discuss? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Two of us were attacked in such a manner, neither of us lost our jobs, but we did have plenty of 'splaining to do to our respective employers. This was circa mid-1995, IIRC. I now flame only from my ISP account:-} tom coradeschi <+> tcora@skylands.ibmwr.org Skylands (NJ) BMW Riders <+> From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 11:47:36 2003 Received: from mail-out1.apple.com (mail-out1.apple.com [17.254.0.52]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F9B195A50 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (A17-129-100-225.apple.com [17.129.100.225]) by mail-out1.apple.com (8.12.7/8.12.7) with ESMTP id h25JlYYv005135 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:30 -0800 Received: from plaidworks.com (vg0602e-dhcp175.apple.com [17.216.21.175]) by scv2.apple.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h25JlSQ27900; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:29 -0800 Subject: Re: Off-list Revenge Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Cc: murr rhame , To: Tom Coradeschi From: Chuq Von Rospach In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4C35FCEA-4F43-11D7-8B41-0003934516A8@plaidworks.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.551) X-Archive-Number: 200303/54 X-Sequence-Number: 1372 On Wednesday, March 5, 2003, at 11:33 AM, Tom Coradeschi wrote: > Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Two of us were attacked in > such a manner, neither of us lost our jobs, but we did have plenty of > 'splaining to do to our respective employers. This was circa mid-1995, > IIRC. I now flame only from my ISP account:-} > been on both sides. as an admin and user, I've told trolls to cut it out or risk me trying to get them in as much trouble as I can -- and have at times done so, with moderate success. been threatened, and occasionally I've issued a formal apology (because when I calmed down I admitted I was being a jerk), and occasionally my boss has had rude names for the person doing the complaining (because when I calmed down he agreed that other person was being a jerk). And on one occasion, lawyers were threatened, until I pointed out my next email was going directly to his management, since he threatened me on a corporate email address. and suddenly we were best friends again. this ain't new. this stuff happened a lot in the 80's on usenet. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech, Apple IS&T E-mail systems chuq@apple.com From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 11:47:53 2003 Received: from houston.wolf.com (houston.wolf.com [216.40.226.30]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465B81962D3 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 15313 invoked by uid 511); 5 Mar 2003 19:47:51 -0000 Message-ID: <20030305194751.15312.qmail@houston.wolf.com> References: <20030305184043.2398.qmail@celery.tssi.com> In-Reply-To: <20030305184043.2398.qmail@celery.tssi.com> From: "Angel Rivera" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: Off-list Revenge Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 19:47:51 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/55 X-Sequence-Number: 1373 nolan@celery.tssi.com writes: >> Just got a message from a subscriber who claims that he was fired >> in part as a result of a dispute from one of my lists. The guy >> who was fired made a rude remark. The other party complained to >> the fired guy's employer. Fired guy was subscribed using his >> work account. That's as much as I know so far... Anyone had a >> similar situation they are willing to discuss? > > I know of someone who quit his job over the issue of access to e-mail > for non-business purposes, and I've heard of several threatened lawsuits > arising from list flame wars, but so far as I know none were filed. > (I've been threatened with lawsuits a few times as the List Manager, too.) > > I know of at least one case of an ISP being notified about a flame war > that moved over to private e-mail which resulted in the account being > deactivated. Most of the time, though, the ISP does nothing. But when you do it from a work account, whether you like it or not you can carry and have an effect on the corporate image. We have written e-mail standards we have to comply with. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 12:14:28 2003 Received: from minneapolis.mnjazz.com (circles.radparker.com [209.98.250.78]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1119F195FAF for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 12:09:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mnjazz.com (localhost.mnjazz.com [127.0.0.1]) by minneapolis.mnjazz.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569D010394 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:12:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3E66596B.A82A1CB6@mnjazz.com> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 14:09:15 -0600 From: Al Iverson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List Managers Subject: gateway.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/56 X-Sequence-Number: 1374 Does gateway.net still exist? It seems to be owned by AOL now. Are there still any valid email addresses at gateway.net any more? Regards, Al Iverson -- Al Iverson -- iverson@mnjazz.com -- Minneapolis, Minnesota My pockets hurt. http://www.spamresource.com/ Support Jazz in Minnesota! -- http://www.mnjazz.com/ All opinions are mine alone unless I state otherwise. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Wed Mar 5 13:09:38 2003 Received: from host4.ctc.net (host4.mail.vnet.net [166.82.1.69]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F2A1959F0 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 13:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from katie.vnet.net ([166.82.1.7]) by host4.ctc.net (InterMail vK.4.03.05.03 201-232-132-103 license 2d687b22c655f23831a2faa19b737467) with ESMTP id <20030305211056.FPYF3575.host4@katie.vnet.net> for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:10:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (murr@localhost) by katie.vnet.net (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h25L9Uq07921 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:09:30 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: katie.vnet.net: murr owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:09:30 -0500 (EST) From: murr rhame To: "(List Managers)" Subject: Re: Off-list Revenge In-Reply-To: <20030305194751.15312.qmail@houston.wolf.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/57 X-Sequence-Number: 1375 On Wed, 5 Mar 2003, Angel Rivera wrote: > But when you do it from a work account, whether you like it > or not you can carry and have an effect on the corporate > image. We have written e-mail standards we have to comply > with. Yup. I don't have a great deal of sympathy when someone gets busted for using company facilities in an approved manner. I have seen a few other instances where off-list politics and squabbles fell into my admin lap, so to speak. One was an attempt by an organization's leadership to censor the list... Resolved by several minor policy changes. In another case, one list member screwed another during an off-line deal that went sour. A friend of the guy who got screwed asked me to remove the "bad guy" from the list. Turned out both of the combatants had dirty hands. I'm glad that I had declined to get involved. - murr - From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Mar 6 00:42:00 2003 Received: from shedevil.annepmitchell.com (adsl-64-165-36-235.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [64.165.36.235]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3876195A5B for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from annie (windows.annepmitchell.com [192.168.0.8]) by shedevil.annepmitchell.com (8.11.6/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h268dHi00228 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:39:17 -0800 (PST) X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . From: "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." Organization: Habeas - the email you want To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:41:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Wow..I just saw it for myself - spam to confirmed list Message-ID: <3E669954.23636.88E2625@localhost> In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20030303125840.0224a190@mail.attbi.com> References: <20030303203216.14391.qmail@celery.tssi.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Archive-Number: 200303/58 X-Sequence-Number: 1376 Wow..I just saw it for myself...someone signed up to a confirmed- opt-in group which I moderate (yahoo group) specifically for the purpose of spamming it (pron spam, too). It has been suggested that this can be done by some sort of robot - anybody know how that works? Anne From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Mar 6 01:39:03 2003 Received: from planet.fef.com (unknown [166.90.172.7]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C170A195FDD for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:39:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from planet.fef.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by planet.fef.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/check_local-5) with ESMTP id h269coim021881; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:38:50 -0800 Received: (from alvin@localhost) by planet.fef.com (8.12.8/8.12.4/Submit) id h269coej021880; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:38:50 -0800 From: Alvin Oga Message-Id: <200303060938.h269coej021880@planet.fef.com> Subject: Re: Wow..I just saw it for myself - spam to confirmed list To: amitchell@habeas.com (Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:38:49 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <3E669954.23636.88E2625@localhost> from "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." at Mar 06, 2003 12:41:56 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL1] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200303/59 X-Sequence-Number: 1377 > Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote: > > Wow..I just saw it for myself...someone signed up to a confirmed- > opt-in group which I moderate (yahoo group) specifically for the > purpose of spamming it (pron spam, too). > > It has been suggested that this can be done by some sort of robot - > anybody know how that works? trivial... see basic psuedo code outline below c ya alvin # # Create a spam-bot # 0th event - someone has to setup up a "spambot" account with an auto-responder on a mail server 1st event - send out initial email to subscribe from spambot acct ( somebody that wants to send spam does something ) echo subscribe | mail -s subscribe list-request@foo.com 2nd event - receive autoreply/confirmation from xx-subscribe ( normally, one expect a human to reply/confirm it ) 3rd event - but for us, the spammer's autoreponder replies ( remember we have an autoresponder setup on "spambot" ) - a good list manager sw will be able to defeat this faked autoconfirmation from a supposed human confirmation 4th event - confirmation received from xx-subscribe ( no reason why it would be denied by the list ) grep list@foo.com /var/log/maillog | wc -l if ( have at least 2 of um ... we're set to go ) 5th event - send spam ( a few minutes later ... send the spam ) mail -s "make $10M today spam" < /tmp/spam-2-send.txt 6th event - unsubscribe ( few minutes later ... after confirming mail was sent ) echo unsubscribe | mail -s unsubscribe list-request@foo.com # # done .. sell script for $100M From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Mar 6 07:03:50 2003 Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (h-64-105-135-5.LSANCA54.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403F1195A0E; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:03:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bob@localhost) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id h26F3lx15136; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:03:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:03:47 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Myers X-X-Sender: bob@cyclone.muddypuppies.com To: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Wow..I just saw it for myself - spam to confirmed list In-Reply-To: <20030306132007.CB89019609A@mycroft.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Archive-Number: 200303/60 X-Sequence-Number: 1378 > Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:38:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Alvin Oga > To: amitchell@habeas.com (Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.) > > > Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. wrote: > > > > Wow..I just saw it for myself...someone signed up to a confirmed- > > opt-in group which I moderate (yahoo group) specifically for the > > purpose of spamming it (pron spam, too). > > > > It has been suggested that this can be done by some sort of robot - > > anybody know how that works? > > trivial... see basic psuedo code outline below > This is partly why I hacked up my running copy of Majordomo to require a few approved messages before allowing unrestricted posting privileges. Any new subscriber who tries to post gets their messages bounced to the list-owner until a list-owner-configurable number of messages has been approved - usually 2 or 3. It prevents this kind of problem, as well as other obnoxious newbie problems. I really think newbie filters are a good idea, and hope that other MLMs implement them. I'm pretty sure a few MLMs do, but I'm not sure which ones. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Mar 6 07:15:59 2003 Received: from one.elistx.com (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FB5195F1D for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:15:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (one.elistx.com [209.116.252.130]) by eListX.com (PMDF V6.0-025 #44856) with ESMTP id <0HBC000JT2FN4R@eListX.com> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:16:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 10:16:07 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: James M Galvin Subject: Re: Wow..I just saw it for myself - spam to confirmed list In-reply-to: <200303060938.h269coej021880@planet.fef.com> To: Alvin Oga Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII References: <200303060938.h269coej021880@planet.fef.com> X-Archive-Number: 200303/61 X-Sequence-Number: 1379 On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Alvin Oga wrote: 3rd event - but for us, the spammer's autoreponder replies ( remember we have an autoresponder setup on "spambot" ) - a good list manager sw will be able to defeat this faked autoconfirmation from a supposed human confirmation Would you please describe how one could detect that a message came from a human and not an autoresponder? Jim From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Mar 6 07:40:25 2003 Received: from mail3.panix.com (mail3.panix.com [166.84.1.74]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC101961B1 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 07:40:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ord351473 (localhost.panix.com [127.0.0.1]) by mail3.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35B0398AAC for ; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 10:40:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d101c2e3f6$a147ea60$21985742@ord351473> From: "David W. Tamkin" To: References: <200303060938.h269coej021880@planet.fef.com> Subject: Re: Wow..I just saw it for myself - spam to confirmed list Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:39:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Archive-Number: 200303/62 X-Sequence-Number: 1380 When Alvin Oga wrote, > - a good list manager sw will be able to defeat this > faked autoconfirmation from a supposed human confirmation Jim Galvin asked, | Would you please describe how one could detect that a message came from | a human and not an autoresponder? Perhaps to confirm one would have to follow some instructions other than just replying. (Such a requirement would lock out attempted subscriptions by humans who won't read instructions, but that might be a good thing.) For example, autoresponders are likely to quote back (a) none of the received text, (b) all of the received text, or (c) a certain amount from the top of the received text. So if the applicant is