From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Oct 14 11:30:39 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: from biglist.com (biglist.com [216.223.208.40]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0479F32C3B2 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 11:30:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4121 invoked by uid 601); 14 Oct 2004 18:30:37 -0000 Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:30:37 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Hotmail rendering of 7bit messages Message-ID: <20041014183037.GA98595@biglist.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Archive-Number: 200410/1 X-Sequence-Number: 1803 Just today, we've gotten a couple reports from list owners about Hotmail not displaying certain messages properly. We've determined that this happens with text/plain messages which are 7bit encoded, the symptoms being the display of characters like "+ADw-". If you reload the page, about 50% of the time it displays properly. Are there any MSN admins on this list? Does anyone have any more information about this phenomenon? Has Hotmail made some changes in the last 24 hours? Omar From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Thu Oct 14 22:16:30 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from tribenetwork.com (gw-208.tribe.net [209.81.40.254]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE0BE32C1EF for ; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [66.92.48.4] (account jcdill@tribe.net HELO [192.168.0.2]) by tribenetwork.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.5) with ESMTP-TLS id 637379 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:20:26 -0700 Message-ID: <416EED9A.8070708@equinephotoart.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 14:20:26 -0700 From: JC Dill User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.6 (Windows/20040502) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: things that should be in the welcome message Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200410/2 X-Sequence-Number: 1804 I recently had an unpleasant experience subscribing to a mailing list. The list owner had configured the list to subscribe new users with a variety of unusual settings. The welcome message mentioned some of these settings, but not all, and it told how to change some of them, but not all. Unfortunately, I wanted to change one of the settings that was not adequately described, and trying to determine the correct format for changing this setting was very difficult! The list owner's name and email address (or list-owner alias) were not present in the welcome letter, and the reply address for the welcome letter looked like it went to the list *server* rather than to the list *owner* (although I later learned that it did go to the owner). The list runs on a listserver that I'm not familiar with, and trying to decipher the list server's "help" messages was very frustrating. It took me over a dozen emails back and forth with the list server and finally I had to go to a webpage to get the list owner's email address to get help getting my subscription properly configured to meet my needs. The list owner claimed that there are no rules/standards/"laws" that detail what should be included in the welcome message and thus no obligation for the list owner to include the information I expected (how to change the subscription to the "default" settings, how to contact the list owner) in the welcome letter. I coulda swore I've seen list owner standards outlined somewhere before! Am I confused? Is there a standards document that outlines what should be in the welcome message that is received when you subscribe to a list? Am I unreasonable to expect that the welcome message at least include an email address (or alias) for the list owner in the *body* of the message, or that the message reply-to address clearly show that it goes to the owner (i.e. listname-owner alias)? What about expecting clear instructions on how to do something as basic as setting one's subscription to individual emails instead of the list-default setting of mime-digest? Thanks! jc From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Oct 15 07:59:21 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from pickering.cc.nd.edu (pickering.cc.nd.edu [129.74.250.225]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B0832C1DE for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 07:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nd.edu (dragonfly.cc.nd.edu [129.74.33.51]) (authenticated bits=0) by pickering.cc.nd.edu (Switch-3.1.6a/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id i9FExFZb007310 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:59:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <416FE5C2.6040109@nd.edu> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:59:14 -0500 From: Paul Russell Organization: University of Notre Dame User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.5 (Windows/20040207) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: things that should be in the welcome message References: <416EED9A.8070708@equinephotoart.com> In-Reply-To: <416EED9A.8070708@equinephotoart.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ND-MTA-Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:59:19 -0500 (EST) X-ND-Virus-Scan: engine v4.3.20; dat v4399 X-Archive-Number: 200410/3 X-Sequence-Number: 1805 I am not aware of any standards, or even "best practices" documents regarding welcome messages, and the default welcome message text in most MLM products seems to have been written by MLM geeks for MLM geeks. In other words, it is almost completely incomprehensible to normal humans. I am the co-owner of a list for hi-ed email administrators, and we replaced the default welcome message with one that appears to provide most of the information that was missing from the message you received and does not require a post-graduate degree in MLM Science for comprehension. The text of our welcome message is appended below my signature. -- Paul Russell Senior Systems Administrator OIT Messaging Services Team University of Notre Dame ----- begin welcome message for HiEd-EmailAdmin list ----- Please save this message for future reference. Welcome to the HIED-EMAILADMIN list. This list exists to facilitate discussion about all aspects of email administration and management in higher education environments. This includes, but is not limited to: email platform/application, emerging email standards, mail flow, unsolicited bulk or commercial email (spam), email viruses, account management, email clients (both fat and thin), disaster recovery, and email lists. The discussion will focus on these issues within a higher education context. The primary audience is email administrators in higher education, however, all members of the higher education community are welcome to join the list. The list is designed as a self-moderated discussion forum for subscribers only; messages from other sources will be rejected. Flames, personal attacks, and commercial messages will not be tolerated. Offenders may be placed on moderation or removed from the list, at the discretion of the list owners. The list archives are accessible to the public and can be found on the web at . Use of this list, its archives, or its membership details, for commercial solicitation is prohibited. The list is hosted at the University of Notre Dame and is subject to the University's List Service Policies . To post a message to the list, send the message to . To contact the list owners, send an email message to . To leave the list, send an empty email message to . To manage your subscription options, send an email message to with the appropriate command as the only text in the body of the message, or use the web page at . To obtain a list of valid LISTSERV commands, including commands for managing your subscription options, send an email message to with the command 'info refcard' (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of the message. ----- end ----- From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Fri Oct 15 08:42:39 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: from www-s34d2.ununetworks.com (www-s34d2.ununetworks.com [66.36.228.29]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D7B32C2EB for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 08:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host81-157-84-42.range81-157.btcentralplus.com ([81.157.84.42] helo=defaulttg3zjxw) by www-s34d2.ununetworks.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.42 (FreeBSD)) id 1CIUDv-000IK9-OX for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Oct 2004 11:42:32 -0400 Message-ID: <416FEFFB.1030607@btinternet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:42:51 +0100 From: lee User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7.3 (Windows/20040803) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: things that should be in the welcome message References: <416EED9A.8070708@equinephotoart.com> <416FE5C2.6040109@nd.edu> In-Reply-To: <416FE5C2.6040109@nd.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0442-3, 15/10/2004), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - www-s34d2.ununetworks.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - greatcircle.com X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [26 6] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - btinternet.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Archive-Number: 200410/4 X-Sequence-Number: 1806 I host a few lists on my install of the Mailgust MLM and take great care in making sure that all necessary contact details and info are clear but concise, both in the notification mails and right at the start where the person usually first discovered the lists on the website. I would suggest any list manager who does not use such common sense (and especially, JC, takes the attitude you described as receiving) is hosting a list not worth getting involved with in the first place. lee scanned by lee's virus software. outbound message found to be clean. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Oct 18 16:03:25 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: from biglist.com (biglist.com [216.223.208.40]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E91B232C487 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 17338 invoked by uid 601); 18 Oct 2004 23:03:23 -0000 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:03:23 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hotmail rendering of 7bit messages Message-ID: <20041018230323.GA91370@biglist.com> References: <20041014183037.GA98595@biglist.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041014183037.GA98595@biglist.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Archive-Number: 200410/5 X-Sequence-Number: 1807 If anyone cares, the problem was that the signature delimiting string that we were using, "--+--" , was causing Hotmail display the message with 7bit encoded characters, regardless the encoding defined in the message headers. Omar On Thu, Oct 14, 2004 at 02:30:37PM -0400, Omar Thameen wrote: > Just today, we've gotten a couple reports from list owners about > Hotmail not displaying certain messages properly. > > We've determined that this happens with text/plain messages which > are 7bit encoded, the symptoms being the display of characters > like "+ADw-". If you reload the page, about 50% of the time it > displays properly. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Oct 18 19:54:23 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: from mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (mailbox.onlinepolicy.net [64.62.161.194]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07AFC32C223 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (Postfix, from userid 504) id 889B61882FA; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (c-24-18-255-132.client.comcast.net [24.18.255.132]) by mailbox.onlinepolicy.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1071C1882F9; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:31:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <417481DA.7050504@queernet.org> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:54:18 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Omar Thameen Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hotmail rendering of 7bit messages References: <20041014183037.GA98595@biglist.com> <20041018230323.GA91370@biglist.com> In-Reply-To: <20041018230323.GA91370@biglist.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.86.1.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Archive-Number: 200410/6 X-Sequence-Number: 1808 Omar Thameen wrote: > If anyone cares, the problem was that the signature delimiting string > that we were using, "--+--" , was causing Hotmail display the message > with 7bit encoded characters, regardless the encoding defined in the > message headers. Then perhaps you should actually use the RFC-compliant signature delimiter, two dashes (-) followed by one space followed by a newline. From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Mon Oct 18 21:14:34 2004 X-Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: from biglist.com (biglist.com [216.223.208.40]) by mycroft.greatcircle.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B72632C564 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 8081 invoked by uid 601); 19 Oct 2004 04:14:32 -0000 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 00:14:32 -0400 From: Omar Thameen To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Hotmail rendering of 7bit messages Message-ID: <20041019041432.GA97866@biglist.com> References: <20041014183037.GA98595@biglist.com> <20041018230323.GA91370@biglist.com> <417481DA.7050504@queernet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <417481DA.7050504@queernet.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Archive-Number: 200410/7 X-Sequence-Number: 1809 On Mon, Oct 18, 2004 at 07:54:18PM -0700, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: > Omar Thameen wrote: > > If anyone cares, the problem was that the signature delimiting string > > that we were using, "--+--" , was causing Hotmail display the message > > with 7bit encoded characters, regardless the encoding defined in the > > message headers. > > Then perhaps you should actually use the RFC-compliant signature > delimiter, two dashes (-) followed by one space followed by a newline. That's not a bad idea, though it doesn't excuse Hotmail's inability to display the messages. The problems I see are: - I've only been able to find references to "-- " being a convention stemming from usenet, not a requirement (RFC 2646, 3676). - In practice, very few people/ISPs are using signatures so delimited. - Though I did say "signature", I meant to refer to the mandatory list unsubscribe information we append (which we want to strip out for archives). Perhaps it's better called a "trailer", with signatures remaining the superfluous information provided by the poster. Omar