From List-Managers-Owner Tue Oct 27 22:41:36 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11337; Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:41:36 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11328; Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:41:31 PST Message-Id: <9210280641.AA11328@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is open for business! Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:41:30 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Welcome to the brand new List-Managers mailing list! Subscriptions seem to have tapered off, so I'll go ahead and open the list now. I didn't get quite the flood with List-Managers that I did with Firewalls (50 subscriptions in the first 3 days, versus 600 for Firewalls), but I think we've got ourselves a nice cozy little list here. Anybody got any burning topics they'd like to kick things off with? -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Oct 27 22:52:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11407; Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:52:04 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11395; Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:52:00 PST Message-Id: <9210280652.AA11395@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Publicizing the existance of List-Managers Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:51:59 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Actually, I've got a topic to kick things off with... Does anybody have any ideas on how to publicize List-Managers, to let people who manage mailing lists know the list is here? I've posted articles to the comp.mail.misc, comp.org.usenix, news.sysadmin, comp.unix.admin, and news.lists newsgroups, as well as mailed something off to the "sage-online" and "Majordomo-Users" mailing lists, but that doesn't seem to be generating much of a response. I've actually assembled a list of addresses from the SRI "interest groups" list of mailing lists that _should_ be all the email addresses that appear in that document that _aren't_ listed as mailing lists in that document (it was a god-awful perl script; you don't want to know the details). I'm leary of sending anything to that assembled list because I'm afraid that 5-10% of the addresses on there are still mailing lists, not individuals, and I wouldn't want to bomb those lists at random with the "List-Managers" announcement. I've also considered sending the announcement to the "-request" aliases for every list in the document, but there are two problems with that. First, many of them are BitNet LISTSERV lists (which often don't have "-request" aliases), and second, I get the impression that many folks are running automated or semi-automated servers on their "-request" aliases, so the message would probably end up going into the bit-bucket anyway. I probably won't try my first idea above, but I might be convinced to try the second... Anybody got any other ideas? -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Oct 27 23:31:11 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11502; Tue, 27 Oct 92 23:31:11 PST Received: from cs.columbia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11495; Tue, 27 Oct 92 23:31:04 PST Received: from tiemann.cs.columbia.edu by cs.columbia.edu (5.65c/0.6/jba+ad) with SMTP id AA12275; Wed, 28 Oct 1992 02:30:56 -0500 Received: by tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+) id AA03422; Wed, 28 Oct 92 02:30:55 EST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 02:30:55 EST From: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (Alexander Dupuy) Message-Id: <9210280730.AA03422@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9210280652.AA11395@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> (message from Brent Chapman on Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:51:59 -0800) Subject: Publicizing the existence of List-Managers Reply-To: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You should probably send a copy of the list-managers list announcement to the unix-listserv@stormking.com list, which is chartered for the discussion of the Unix LISTSERV implementation developed by Anastasios Kotsikonas. Other readers of this list who are interested in moving to more automated list management software may also be interested in subscribing to unix-listserv, which can be done by sending mail to with the following line in the body (not Subject: header) of the message: subscribe unix-listserv J. Q. Doe [where you substitute your own name for J. Q. Doe, of course] You can also pick up the current version 5.5 of Unix Listserv via anonymous FTP from cs.bu.edu. @alex -- inet: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write to lpf@uunet.uu.net From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 00:07:23 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11567; Wed, 28 Oct 92 00:07:23 PST Received: from cs.columbia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11560; Wed, 28 Oct 92 00:07:12 PST Received: from tiemann.cs.columbia.edu by cs.columbia.edu (5.65c/0.6/jba+ad) with SMTP id AA13034; Wed, 28 Oct 1992 03:07:00 -0500 Received: by tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+) id AA03501; Wed, 28 Oct 92 03:06:59 EST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 03:06:59 EST From: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (Alexander Dupuy) Message-Id: <9210280806.AA03501@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9210280641.AA11328@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> (message from Brent Chapman on Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:41:30 -0800) Subject: Internet draft for mail-based servers Reply-To: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While this may be of interest only to those list-managers who use automated subscription mechanisms, I imagine that probably constitutes the majority of subscribers on this list. Anyhow, there has been some interesting mail about this draft on the BITNET LISTSERV meta-list LSTSRV-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU. The status of the draft is somewhat unclear; the official Internet working group disbanded a while back, and the draft is an independent submission by Jeroen Houttouin and Allan Cargille. Although the scope of the document is claimed to be all Internet mail-based servers (including directly connected RFC-822 and X.400 servers, as well as gatewayed BITNET and UUCP servers), the specification is presented in terms of the older X.400(84) standard, and its requirements already appear to be present to some extent in RFC-1327, which is the official standard for RFC-822<->X.400 mail gateways. At any rate, I would be interested in any opinions/reactions/prejudices that people on this list have to the proposed RFC. I've made some files accessible via LISTSERV or FTP from cs.columbia.edu for anyone interested - you can get them as /listserv/archives/.Z or via LISTSERV@cs.columbia.edu, using "get listserv ". The files available are: mailservers-00.draft the actual draft RFC mailserver-mail messages on this subject from various lists rfc1327 RFC for RFC822<->X.400(88)<->X.400(84) mappings rfc987 obsolete RFC822<->X.400(84) mappings rfc1026 corrections to RFC987 In addition, there are a number of other files there which may be of interest; you can get a list by sending the command "index listserv". @alex -- inet: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write to lpf@uunet.uu.net From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 05:53:25 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12043; Wed, 28 Oct 92 05:53:25 PST Received: from gateway.morgan.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12035; Wed, 28 Oct 92 05:53:09 PST Received: from Morgan.COM ([138.20.2.27]) by gateway.morgan.com with SMTP id <41389>; Wed, 28 Oct 1992 08:53:02 -0500 Received: from foreign.Morgan.COM by Morgan.COM id AA28422; Wed, 28 Oct 92 08:52:47 EST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1992 08:52:47 -0500 From: dpk@fid.Morgan.COM (Doug Kingston) Message-Id: <9210281352.AA28422@Morgan.COM> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V1 #1 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Try number 2. For everything that bounces, try sending to postmaster @ that site. -Doug- From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 07:54:54 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12223; Wed, 28 Oct 92 07:54:54 PST Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12216; Wed, 28 Oct 92 07:54:47 PST Message-Id: <9210281554.AA12216@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Brent@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Burns" Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1992 10:55:08 EST Subject: publicizing list-managers Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The best way to publicize list-managers on the Internet is to send an announcement to NEW-LIST@VM1.NODAK.EDU ; but before sending off an announcement, send GET NEWLIST FORMAT to LISTSERV@VM1.NODAK.EDU and read the document that is then sent to you. Roger Burns bfu@cu.nih.gov / bfu@nihcu.bitnet Editor, CFS-NEWS Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Electronic Newsletter newsgroup: bit.listserv.cfs.newsletter Listowner, CFS-L discussion CFS-NEWS and CFS-L, both on LISTSERV at NIHLIST.BITNET or LIST.NIH.GOV From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 08:29:30 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12283; Wed, 28 Oct 92 08:29:30 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12276; Wed, 28 Oct 92 08:29:24 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA11855; Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:28:21 CST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:28:21 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9210281528.AA11855@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Brent Chapman's message of Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:41:30 -0800 <9210280641.AA11328@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Subject: Majordomo? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman said: Anybody got any burning topics they'd like to kick things off with? Yeah. How can we get Majordomo? And can it be set up to handle "fubar-baz-request" without requiring that the body of the message explicitly use the list name "fubar-baz"? Bill From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 09:30:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12570; Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:30:52 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12561; Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:30:48 PST Message-Id: <9210281730.AA12561@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:28:21 CST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:30:46 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # Brent Chapman said: # # Anybody got any burning topics they'd like to kick things off with? # # Yeah. How can we get Majordomo? And can it be set up to handle # "fubar-baz-request" without requiring that the body of the message # explicitly use the list name "fubar-baz"? # # Bill Majordomo is available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM, file "pub/majordomo.tar.Z". Majordomo includes a "request-recording" program that I set up to answer each "-request" alias. This program sends back a recording, customized to the list in question (which is specified on the command line) that tells somebody how to use Majordomo to subscribe or unsubscribe to that list, or how to contact a human if that's what they need. Here's the alias for list-managers-request: list-managers-request: "|/usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper request-recording list-managers" And here's what you get if you send something to list-managers-request: From: list-managers-request@GreatCircle.COM To: brent@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Your mail to list-managers-request@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9210281727.AA12534@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>, from brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Reply-To: list-managers-approval@GreatCircle.COM This pre-recorded message is being sent in response to your recent email to list-managers-request@GreatCircle.COM. All subscription requests concerning mailing lists on this machine (including list-managers) are handled by an automated server. To subscribe to list-managers, send the following in an email message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": subscribe list-managers This will subscribe the account from which you send the message to the list-managers list. If you wish to subscribe another address instead (such as a local redistribution list), you can use a command of the form: subscribe list-managers other-address@your_site.your_net To find out more about the automated server, send the following command to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": help If you feel you need to reach a human, send email to list-managers-approval@GreatCircle.COM From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 10:42:42 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13065; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:42:42 PST Received: from uu4.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13058; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:42:35 PST Received: from svcdudes.comby uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA13346; Wed, 28 Oct 92 13:27:35 -0500 Received: from moose. by svcdudes.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA21411; Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:38:57 PST Received: by moose. (NX5.67c/NX3.0S) id AA02401; Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:36:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:36:52 -0800 From: Michael Rutman Message-Id: <9210281736.AA02401@moose.> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: How does majordomo get around sendmail limits Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am using majordomo, and it looks like it justs creates and mantains an :include file for the aliases. Don't these files have 1024 character limits? Or am I just seriously misunderstanding things. --- Michael Rutman | moose@svcdudes.com Cubist | makes me a NeXT programmer Software Ventures | maker of MicroPhone Pro #include | really offensive political statement From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 10:50:34 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13123; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:50:34 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13115; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:50:29 PST Message-Id: <9210281850.AA13115@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How does majordomo get around sendmail limits In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:36:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:50:28 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Rutman writes: # I am using majordomo, and it looks like it justs creates and mantains # an :include file for the aliases. Don't these files have 1024 # character limits? Or am I just seriously misunderstanding things. Some old versions of Sendmail may have such a limitation, but it is definitely not present in the version of Sendmail that I'm using (the standard one shipped by Sun with SunOS 4.1.1). The Firewalls mailing list is over 21k long, and the Firewalls-Digest list is over 4k, and both work just fine. Questions like this are more appropriate to Majordomo-Users than List-Managers, by the way. Majordomo-Users is for discussions specificly related to the Majordomo software. List-Managers is for more general mailing list management discussions, like policies, procedures, common problems, and so forth. -Brent From List-Managers-Owner Wed Oct 28 10:52:32 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13155; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:52:32 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13140; Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:52:23 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA12197; Wed, 28 Oct 92 12:52:33 CST Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 12:52:33 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9210281852.AA12197@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Michael Rutman's message of Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:36:52 -0800 <9210281736.AA02401@moose.> Subject: Re: How does majordomo get around sendmail limits Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 09:36:52 -0800 From: Michael Rutman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am using majordomo, and it looks like it justs creates and mantains an :include file for the aliases. Don't these files have 1024 character limits? Or am I just seriously misunderstanding things. Probably depends on which sendmail you are using. Older sendmails would dump core if they tried to syslog a list of recipients that was longer than 1024 characters, regardless of where that list came from. IDA sendmail gets around this by syslogging each recipient on a separate line (not, in my opinion, a very good feature, since log files then tend to grow to ridiculous sizes). ra.mcs.anl.gov, the home of sun-managers, runs IDA sendmail: ra% cd /usr/lib/mail ra% grep sun-managers-outbound aliases sun-managers-outbound::include:/usr/lib/mail/sun-mgr/sun-managers-list ra% wc sun-mgr/sun-managers-list 1531 1531 38511 sun-mgr/sun-managers-list Note that that's 1531 LINES and over 38000 characters. Yes, sun-managers has over 1500 primary recipients (and that doesn't count all the users that are on local exploder lists). William LeFebvre Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Northwestern University From List-Managers-Owner Thu Oct 29 07:50:59 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16101; Thu, 29 Oct 92 07:50:59 PST Received: from uu2.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16094; Thu, 29 Oct 92 07:50:37 PST Received: from porsche.visix.com by uu2.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA09635; Thu, 29 Oct 92 10:50:29 -0500 Received: from elan.visix.com by porsche.visix.COM (4.1/Visix Software Rev 2.0) id AA21245; Thu, 29 Oct 92 10:50:40 EST Received: by elan.visix.com (5.4.1/5.40/1.0) id AA27525; Thu, 29 Oct 1992 10:49:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1992 10:49:56 -0500 From: ken@porsche.visix.COM (Ken Mayer) Message-Id: <9210291549.AA27525@elan.visix.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: sun-managers education Reply-To: ken@porsche.visix.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [I recently sent this to a poster to sun-managers. I am going to keep a template around for future use and I thought others might like it too. KLM] Hi, Thanks for the interesting announcement on POPmail 3.0. I will certainly look into it for our network. Mailing it to Sun Managers, however, is inappropriate. The Sun Managers list is set up as a fast turnaround list for managers with an emergency problem (please refer to the sun-managers charter, posted monthly to the list). In the future, please post such announcements to comp.newproducts, comp.sys.sun{.admin}, etc. This is not a flame. During a recent conference, many of the major contributors to the list reported that the traffic volume has become too great for them to monitor it. Since the success on this list depends on the knowledgeable people who read it, if the traffic drives them out, the list's original usefulness will be lost. Those of us at the conference agreed to start a grass roots education program to inform users of the list of its purpose and to suggest more appropriate alternatives. If you are already aware of the provisions for using the Sun Managers list and feel that your posting was legitimate, then I defer to your good judgement on the matter. Please accept my apologies for the intrusion. Regards, Ken Mayer -- Ken "I don't need no stinkin' title" Mayer (ken@visix.com) Visix Software Inc./703.758.8230 Bene Vivere Ultio Optima --- Living Well is the Best Revenge From List-Managers-Owner Thu Oct 29 08:39:37 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16200; Thu, 29 Oct 92 08:39:37 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16192; Thu, 29 Oct 92 08:39:34 PST Message-Id: <9210291639.AA16192@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Chronic problems reaching .MIL sites? Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 08:39:33 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does everybody else also have chronic problems with messages to .MIL sites (most of whom, I presume, are still on the old MILNET) timing out and being returned after 2 or 3 or 7 days? If so, do you have any tricks (alternate addresses or anything like that) that improve matters? Thanks! -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041