From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 05:29:06 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25084; Mon, 2 Nov 92 05:29:06 PST Received: from dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25074; Mon, 2 Nov 92 05:26:07 PST Received: by dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil (5.61++/1.34) id AA25509; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:21:34 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:21:34 -0500 From: ntm1851@dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil (James L. Bowling) Message-Id: <9211021321.AA25509@dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil> To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subscribe List-Managers-Digest From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:25:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25976; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:25:33 PST Received: from sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25969; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:25:28 PST Message-Id: <9211021625.AA25969@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: by sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (16.8/16.2) id AA00924; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:25:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:25:42 -0800 From: Michael Urban Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subscribe list-managers From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:30:25 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26014; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:30:25 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26006; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:30:20 PST Message-Id: <9211021630.AA26006@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: Michael Urban In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:25:42 -0800 Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Urban writes: # subscribe list-managers # Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:38:15 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26100; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:38:15 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26082; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:38:05 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA14627; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:38:17 -0800 for Urban@GreatCircle.COM Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA17554; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:37:26 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:37:26 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211021637.AA17554@medraut.apple.com> To: brent@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: , Urban@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Michael Urban writes: > ># subscribe list-managers ># >Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing >lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to >the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) Well, since I got a message from him asking to be subscribed to my mailing list, I think I ought to do it. I simply took it to be a shorthand way of asking to be on ALL of our mailing lists... From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:47:16 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26162; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:47:16 PST Received: from sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26153; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:47:09 PST Message-Id: <9211021647.AA26153@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: by sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (16.8/16.2) id AA01051; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:46:45 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 PST." <9211021630.AA26006@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> X-Face: %q"[Odr2u&o(@]W>9%kwwJ/Td+Ju5!en}ZHQ>G3)9%`RBr7Ct12Dj6LB\Qz@@j|YgfHymB~ Lc>qe:o+U{rh!RVuaYYd{+S4$8tPLu]Y$0<5x>rj-kuS"[eqLFME-('jwXR87s;A3I,=cW*D(> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Your message dated: Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 PST > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) Well, public embarassment is good, although if the goal is to reduce spurious traffic, its value is open to doubt. Mike From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:47:26 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26182; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:47:26 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26155; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:47:14 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA20785; Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:47:27 CST Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:47:27 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9211021647.AA20785@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov In-Reply-To: Brent Chapman's message of Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 -0800 <9211021630.AA26006@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Subject: subscribe... Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Urban writes: # subscribe list-managers # Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) I don't know. It's pretty scary to realize that people who supposedly know what they are doing don't read directions and don't know one of the longest standing traditions/standards on the Internet (I think it even predates TCP). Maybe we could create a separate list-managers list with a few mailing loops in it and add them to that! :-) William LeFebvre Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Northwestern University From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 08:48:31 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26207; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:48:31 PST Received: from utkvt1 (UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26200; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:48:21 PST Received: from UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU by UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU (PMDF #3151 ) id <01GQOB8MKA4W8WVZ3E@UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU>; Mon, 2 Nov 1992 11:48:15 EDT Date: 02 Nov 1992 11:48:15 -0400 (EDT) From: "John R. Lewis, Ph.D., ADP Project Manager" Subject: subscribe list-managers-digest To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Message-Id: <01GQOB8MOATE8WVZ3E@UTKVT1.VET.UTK.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com" X-Vms-Cc: TSTMGR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subscribe list-managers-digest From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 09:09:32 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26245; Mon, 2 Nov 92 09:09:32 PST Received: from sgiblab.sgi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26234; Mon, 2 Nov 92 09:09:24 PST Received: from unpc by sgiblab.sgi.com via UUCP (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA23566; Mon, 2 Nov 92 09:09:20 -0800 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (5.61/smail2.2/11-02-92) id AA14012; Mon, 2 Nov 92 08:39:58 -0800 From: rogerk@unpc.queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) Message-Id: <9211021639.AA14012@unpc.queernet.org> To: Brent Chapman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Michael Urban In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 -0800. <9211021630.AA26006@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:39:58 PST Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) info ;-) --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE +1 415 ALL-ARFF rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk "Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from." -- J. Foster From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 11:20:41 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27242; Mon, 2 Nov 92 11:20:41 PST Received: from garlic.inset.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27235; Mon, 2 Nov 92 11:20:35 PST Received: by garlic.inset.com (Sendmail:5.51/Cf:Jr.2.6) id AA14762; Mon, 2 Nov 92 14:16:27 EST From: Adam S. Moskowitz Message-Id: <9211021916.AA14762@garlic.inset.com> Subject: subscribe list-managers-digest (fwd) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 14:16:24 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: "John R. Lewis, Ph.D., ADP Project Manager" ^^^^ > Subject: subscribe list-managers-digest > To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM > . . . > > subscribe list-managers-digest This one from a Ph.D. no less! Where, oh where, are the self-trained, fully-aware hackers of days gone by? AdamM From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 15:25:39 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27748; Mon, 2 Nov 92 15:25:39 PST Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27741; Mon, 2 Nov 92 15:25:26 PST Received: by Ra.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.5m-FWP); id AA29809; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:25:18 CST Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:25:18 CST From: Natalie Maynor Message-Id: <9211022325.AA29809@Ra.MsState.Edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Misdirected Mail Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) We should thank them. I had been wondering ever since subscribing a few days ago whether anybody ever said anything on this list. --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu) From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 17:29:29 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28194; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:29:29 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28173; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:29:17 PST Message-Id: <9211030129.AA28173@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Michael Urban Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:46:45 PST Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 17:29:17 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # Your message dated: Mon, 02 Nov 92 08:30:19 PST # # > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing # > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to # > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) # # Well, public embarassment is good, although if the goal is to reduce # spurious traffic, its value is open to doubt. # # Mike # While it might not reduce the traffic on this list, it might reduce bogus traffic on other lists, and I think that's a good goal considering the membership of this list... -Brent From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 17:51:49 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28319; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:51:49 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28311; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:51:45 PST Message-Id: <9211030151.AA28311@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: The dam breaks... Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 17:51:44 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, the announcement concerning the creation of List-Managers must have gotten _somewhere_ over the weekend... After a steady 5-10 new users per day over the last week or so, there've been 60 new users so far today. I thought the flood was over when I opened the list to general postings; looks like I was wrong. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 18:01:15 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28424; Mon, 2 Nov 92 18:01:15 PST Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2.netcom.com) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28413; Mon, 2 Nov 92 18:01:08 PST Received: from TetraSoft.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28543; Mon, 2 Nov 92 18:59:37 PPE Received: by occam.TetraSoft.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NX3.0M) id AA22251; Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:47:24 PST Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:47:24 PST From: Message-Id: <9211030147.AA22251@occam.TetraSoft.com> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I hate "stupid" postings as much as the next guy, but I think the postings will only increase and not diminish in time. Not because people are getting stupider, but because Internet is spreading --- which I think most of us would agree is a good thing. As Internet becomes widely adopted, newby effects (such as "subscription faux pas"s) will increase in frequency. From an Internet growth perspective, this increase is a *good* thing. Rather than vilify these folks, we should welcome them into the Internet fold. We all were newbies at one time or another (right? :-). I agree a little care can go a long way, but I think the system should be more forgiving, especially on this subscription problem. Automatic filtering of supscription "faux pas"s would help a lot. I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when someone posts such a subscription request (since I am new to list administration), but some system which prevents a posting from being multicast and which provides feedback to the errant subscriber would be in order (I would think). I think most people really don't know (when they make the mistake), and most companies don't necessarily hire experienced Internet'ters to sysadmin (though exceptions abound, I am sure). 2 cents, = Joe = From List-Managers-Owner Mon Nov 2 20:41:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29042; Mon, 2 Nov 92 20:41:04 PST Received: from holonet.net (orac.holonet.net) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29035; Mon, 2 Nov 92 20:40:58 PST Received: by holonet.net (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA28337; Mon, 2 Nov 92 20:40:43 -0800 Message-Id: <9211030440.AA28337@holonet.net> To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 20:40:35 -0800 From: Arthur Britto X-Mts: smtp Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subscribe list-managers From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 02:49:57 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29455; Tue, 3 Nov 92 02:49:57 PST Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29448; Tue, 3 Nov 92 02:49:48 PST Received: from turing.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 for ) with SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 10:50:00 GMT From: "John Martin" Message-Id: Subject: Misdirected subscription requests To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 10:49:52 WET X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Why not moderate the list? i.e. Only the named list-moderator may mail to the members of the list, all mail sent to the list by non-moderators, gets sent to the moderator. All noise then goes to only one person (who could have an auto-reply filter). If the jobs was a big one then people could take turns... There is a hitch though. If the list gets very busy, the moderator gets annoyed. There is a trade off - personally, I find it both easy and acceptable just to hit the 'D' key and move on... Saying all this, I do agree with an earlier posting which suggested that if anyone *should* know, then its the people who run mailing lists themselves. Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Martin Computing Laboratory +44 91 222 8087 University of Newcastle upon Tyne John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 04:19:34 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29564; Tue, 3 Nov 92 04:19:34 PST Received: from bronto.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29557; Tue, 3 Nov 92 04:18:51 PST Received: by bronto.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (5.65c/ZRZ-MX) id AA07566; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 13:19:01 +0100 From: Frank Elsner Message-Id: <199211031219.AA07566@bronto.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Subject: Re: "subscribe list-managers" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 13:18:58 +0100 (MET) In-Reply-To: <9211021630.AA26006@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "Brent Chapman" at Nov 2, 92 08:30:19 am Reply-To: elsner@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Frank Elsner) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL6] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 483 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman wrote: > Michael Urban writes: > # subscribe list-managers > # > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) What about building a mailing list expander which filters such messages and sends a report to the originator ? May require some work :-) > -Brent Frank Elsner (TUBerlin Postmaster) From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 05:27:26 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29660; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:27:26 PST Received: from wugate.wustl.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29653; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:27:05 PST Received: by wugate.wustl.edu (5.65c+/WUSTL-0.3) with SMTP id AA05546; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 07:27:05 -0600 Received: by wubios (4.1/SMI-4.1.1); Tue, 3 Nov 92 07:27:04 CST From: phil@wubios.wustl.edu (J. Philip Miller) Message-Id: <9211031327.AA07132@wubios> Subject: Re: "subscribe list-managers" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 7:27:03 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What about building a mailing list expander which filters such messages > and sends a report to the originator ? > May require some work :-) The LISTSERV which runs on CMS machines by Eric Thomas makes a stab at doing this, along with mail bounces. > > > -Brent > -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - Internet (314) 362-3617 [362-2694(FAX)] From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 05:34:28 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29678; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:34:28 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29671; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:34:08 PST Received: from wxsat.UUCP by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA11688; Tue, 3 Nov 92 08:34:21 -0500 Received: by ssg.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 03 Nov 92 12:48:00 UTC for list-managers@GreatCircle.com To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 12:39:02 UTC In-Reply-To: <9211030147.AA22251@occam.TetraSoft.com> Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk writes: > Hi, > > I hate "stupid" postings as much as the next guy, but I think the > postings will only increase and not diminish in time. Not because > people are getting stupider, but because Internet is spreading --- > which I think most of us would agree is a good thing. As Internet > becomes widely adopted, newby effects (such as "subscription faux > pas"s) will increase in frequency. From an Internet growth > perspective, this increase is a *good* thing. I'll agree with that. > Rather than vilify these folks, we should welcome them into the > Internet fold. We all were newbies at one time or another (right? > :-). I agree a little care can go a long way, but I think the system > should be more forgiving, especially on this subscription problem. > Automatic filtering of supscription "faux pas"s would help a lot. I wish I could filter out newby madness but their very unpredictability makes this a little like shooting mosquitos with a fixed cannon. I'm continually amazed and amused at how creative some people can be in not getting the message on how to use the list. > I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when > someone posts such a subscription request (since I am new to list > administration), but some system which prevents a posting from being > multicast and which provides feedback to the errant subscriber would > be in order (I would think). > > I think most people really don't know (when they make the mistake), > and most companies don't necessarily hire experienced Internet'ters > to sysadmin (though exceptions abound, I am sure). > > 2 cents, > > = Joe = Is there an RFC on lists? There seems to be some unwritten agreement to use "foo" for a list and "foo-request" for the admin account for the list. Past that there's very little consistency. And, of course, there are the sites that use "listserv" in place of "foo-request." Some of this chaos can be cleaned up with a few well chosen aliases. For example, I have aliased "listserv" to a general catch-all account to keep well meaning people from being bounced. Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "...don't forget to listen to the steady beat, | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | don't forget to balance on your ready feet." | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 05:35:02 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29696; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:35:02 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29687; Tue, 3 Nov 92 05:34:42 PST Received: from wxsat.UUCP by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA11756; Tue, 3 Nov 92 08:34:55 -0500 Received: by ssg.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 03 Nov 92 13:32:49 UTC for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: An introduction From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 13:13:52 UTC Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FWIW, here's what I run and how I run it. I have three lists, wxsat, Sun-386i, and fs. The last two are pretty much traditional mail lists; someone sends a note and the list gets it. Names are added by hand. My site is actually a 486 running Waffle under MS-DOS so a number of Unix tools aren't available. I've written a bunch of perl scripts to transfer incoming mail to the list. My smart host (run by PSI, Inc.) only has SMTP so I have to bundle up messages with no more than 1024 characters in a remote execute file. This means that some messages are sent five or six times, each with a different list of addresses. (Yech!) I hope to have a Sun 386i under SunOS 4.0.2 running the lists soon but supporting the wxsat list makes this a little difficult right now. Fs, for flight simulator fans, has about 100 names and has very low volume. I started it after getting tired of wading through 10*10^10 articles about Castle Wolfenstein in the pc games newsgroup for one article about Falcon 3.0x. Sun-386i has been handed through at least four administrators and the message format has changed as various people handle it. The first administrator sent a digest but that stopped a while back. The list has about 250 names. Volume is low (2-5 articles per day). Wxsat is the real challenge. It sends out NOAA bulletins on weather satellites. I have to collect these messages from a NOAA account on SCIENCEnet (run by Omnet, Inc.), forward them to my system as messages, and then send the messages to the list. There is also the usual message distribution from subscribers although this is a minor point for wxsat. Volume is only about five to ten messages per day but some bulletins are 50K or greater. Additionaly, I have file servers which send GIFS's and back messages for wxsat and programs for wxsat and fs. While ssg.com is a registered domain, it's actually a result of digital smoke and mirrors in PSI's name server. FTP is out of the question so I have to rely on uuencoding non-ASCII files. Rick P.S. Send subscription requests to [list name]-request@ssg.com. | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "...don't forget to listen to the steady beat, | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | don't forget to balance on your ready feet." | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 07:49:53 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29849; Tue, 3 Nov 92 07:49:53 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29842; Tue, 3 Nov 92 07:49:35 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA22586; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:49:38 CST Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:49:38 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9211031549.AA22586@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Rick Emerson's message of Tue, 03 Nov 92 12:39:02 UTC Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 12:39:02 UTC Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there an RFC on lists? There seems to be some unwritten agreement to use "foo" for a list and "foo-request" for the admin account for the list. Well, its more than unwritten. The only RFCs that refer to mailing lists are: 1211 Westine, A.; Postel, J.B. Problems with the maintenance of large mailing lists. 1991 March; 54 p. (Format: TXT=96167 bytes) and 402 North, J.B. ARPA Network mailing lists (Not online) 1972 October 26; 8 p. (Obsoletes RFC 363) and its predecessors Although there may not have been an RFC that explicitly said "-request shall be the request address for all lists", certainly any RFC which listed all the Internet (ARPANet) mailing lists listed a -request address for requests. So I guess you could call it a standard by acclimation. Bill From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 08:24:12 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29950; Tue, 3 Nov 92 08:24:12 PST Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA29943; Tue, 3 Nov 92 08:24:04 PST From: woods@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Greg Woods) Message-Id: <9211031624.AA23500@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (5.65/ NCAR Central Post Office 07/14/92) id AA23500; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:24:25 MST Subject: Re: what to do about subscription requests To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 9:24:24 MST In-Reply-To: ; from "Rick Emerson" at Nov 3, 92 12:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am surprised I haven't seen this posted here yet, but given the present thread I just can't resist. Here's hoping list managers have a sense of humor. This came across another list I am on, and I think might have been posted on USENET as well. --Greg > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:29:59 -0400 > From: ee.ryerson.ca!sizone!no_new_taxes (Read My Lips) > Subject: Are you a clueless mailing list reader? > To: smd@uunet.ca > > > From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) > > To: nm-list@reef.cis.ufl.edu > > Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 11:35:27 -0400 > > Attacking Deep Structure writes: > > | MJM -- I have an idea. Why don't you create a new list to which any > | person who sends a subscribe/unsubscribe message to a list proper > | will be added, in addition to having his request fulfilled? This > | way, a list will slowly be built up of people who simply have no clue > | about how mailing lists work. > | > | Each day, a daemon will send a message out to everyone on the list, saying > | something like, "You have been automatically added to this list because > | you are an ignorant dipshit. There is no one watching this list; the > | only way you can become unsubscribed is to figure out the Internet > | standard for issuing control messages to mailing lists. If you had > | followed proper etiquette to begin with, you would not now be on this > | list. Later, d00d." > | > | This public service list would be available to all list maintainers, > | and would have a conspicuous normal address like > | "dumb-fuckers-sender." The brainless sods who were subscribed could > | bleat like sheep to each other as they sent mail to the list trying to > | get unsubscribed. I'm sure it would sustain itself quite nicely after > | it had been operational for about a day and a half. > | > | This is a serious request. > > I've done it. clueless@mantis.co.uk, the Clueless Users Network Test > System (aka the Clueless Users Mailing List). To subscribe, forge > mail from the guilty party saying > > subscribe clueless > > and send it to clueless-request@mantis.co.uk. He can then happily reply > to the regular mail messages, and have his replies sent to everyone else on > the list. He can also send lots of "UNSUB CLUELESS" messages to > clueless@mantis.co.uk and have them forwarded too. Eventually he'll > discover the right way to unsubscribe. > > The regular mail message reads: > > > From: clueless@mantis.co.uk > > To: clueless@mantis.co.uk > > Subject: Welcome, clueless user! > > > > Welcome to the Clueless Users Network Test System, an intelligence test > > for the ignorant and impolite. > > > > You have been automatically added to this mailing list because you sent a > > subscription request like "UNSUB ME" out to the entire readership of a > > mailing list, instead of sending it to the list server or list maintainer. > > > > There is nobody of worth reading this mailing list. The only way you can > > become unsubscribed is to figure out the standard way of unsubscribing > > from an Internet mailing list. Until that time, you will get these > > messages regularly. > > > > If you made an innocent mistake in sending your "UNSUB ME" out to the > > entire list, then you will know how to unsubscribe from this list > > immediately and no harm will be done. > > > > If, on the other hand, you simply have no clue how to deal with mailing > > lists, you'd better start reading up on the subject before you go > > blundering around again. Your attention is cordially drawn to the > > newsgroups news.announce.newusers, news.newusers.questions, and > > news.answers. > > > > Final hint: the mailing list address is clueless@mantis.co.uk. > > > > Have fun. > > > mathew > > - ------- End of Forwarded Message > ------- End of Forwarded Message From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 09:02:48 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00299; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:02:48 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00290; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:02:42 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA22725; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:03:03 CST Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:03:03 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9211031703.AA22725@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 17:47:24 PST From: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when someone posts such a subscription request (since I am new to list administration), but some system which prevents a posting from being multicast and which provides feedback to the errant subscriber would be in order (I would think). GREAT idea. One question: HOW? How does a program determine that a posting is really a request? Length? Key words? A combination of the two? Any algorithm you come up with will be heuristic in nature and prone to error. I'd LOVE to put code in the sun-managers relay to eliminate such misplaced requests, but I can't come up with a decent algorithm. Bill From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 09:11:23 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00362; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:11:23 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00354; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:11:18 PST Message-Id: <9211031711.AA00354@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:03:03 CST Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 09:11:17 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) writes: # How does a program determine that a posting is really a request? # Length? Key words? A combination of the two? Any algorithm you # come # up with will be heuristic in nature and prone to error. I'd LOVE to # put code in the sun-managers relay to eliminate such misplaced # requests, but I can't come up with a decent algorithm. In the case of what we've been seeing on List-Managers, it's pretty simple. All the misdirected requests we've seen so far have been perfectly valid Majordomo requests, just directed to the wrong address. I suspect that most misdirected requests to Majordomo-managed lists (and probably ListServ-managed lists) would be similar. Someone is working on adding code to recognize these requests to the "resend" perl program that I use to handle messages sent my mailing lists. Steve Miller's old "distribute" program used an interesting algorithm. It counted the words in the message, and looked for words in certain classes ("drop or add" words like "remove", "drop", "off", "subscribe", "get", and "add"; "from or to" words like "from" and "to"; and "mail words" like "mail", "mailing", "list", and "dl"). Then, if the word count was < 25 and it had found at least one word in each of the 3 classes, it assumed the message was a natural language administrivia request. This algorithm works fairly well, but it doesn't recognize Majordomo/ListServ commands (they don't trip the "to/from" and "mail words" checks), so you need to add other code to recognize those special cases. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 09:34:19 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00406; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:34:19 PST Received: from gracie.nas.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00398; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:34:02 PST Received: by gracie.nas.nasa.gov (5.61/1.34) id AA01056; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:33:55 -0800 From: cherie@nas.nasa.gov (Cherie N. Lawrence) Message-Id: <9211031733.AA01056@gracie.nas.nasa.gov> Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 9:33:54 PST In-Reply-To: <9211031711.AA00354@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>; from "Brent Chapman" at Nov 3, 92 9:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ># How does a program determine that a posting is really a request? ># Length? Key words? A combination of the two? Any algorithm you ># come ># up with will be heuristic in nature and prone to error. I'd LOVE to ># put code in the sun-managers relay to eliminate such misplaced ># requests, but I can't come up with a decent algorithm. > >Steve Miller's old "distribute" program used an interesting algorithm. >It counted the words in the message, and looked for words in certain >classes ("drop or add" words like "remove", "drop", "off", >"subscribe", "get", and "add"; "from or to" words like "from" and >"to"; and "mail words" like "mail", "mailing", "list", and "dl"). >Then, if the word count was < 25 and it had found at least one word in >each of the 3 classes, it assumed the message was a natural language >administrivia request. Just out of curiousity, how often does this algorithm accidentally filter legitimate messages? I've seen plenty of very brief messages, and "get" and "off" aren't terribly uncommon words... "Subscribe" and "unsubscribe" are probably pretty safe bets... -- cherie@nas.nasa.gov Notice Due to budgetary constraints the light at the end of the tunnel is being turned off. From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 09:43:19 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00451; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:43:19 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00444; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:43:07 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA04634; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:43:21 -0800 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA19334; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:42:28 PST for phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:42:28 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211031742.AA19334@medraut.apple.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when > someone posts such a subscription request Here's what I do: 1) my intro material specifically says that administrivia messages sent to the wrong request will not be processed. 2) I actually enforce that. If someone tries to sign on or off the list by posting to the real address instead of the -request address, I DON'T DO IT. 3) Instead, I send them a note reminding them of their mistake and include the intro material again. The idea is to (a) remind them of what they're supposed to be doing, while (b) not letting them get away with doing it wrong, and (c) do it nicely. It's important to not do the "well, I'll do it this time, but don't do it again" routine, because what you're doing is reinforcing that they can break the rules and get away with it. They need to be forced to go through the routine, because that way they're more likely to remember it next time. It's more work for the admin (it's a lot easier to just do it than go through the mail exchanges and wait for the 'proper' address to be used), but it reduces the overall hassle. To make it work, though, the admin needs to keep up their end: (a) good, clean introductory material on do's and don't's, (b) when someone is added and (more importantly) dropped, send confirmations, (c) process requests on a timely basis to the greatest extent possible, and (d) be nice about it. Firm, but nice. Seems to work for me. While I'm here, a quick intro: I'm currently running one mailing list, "minors@medraut.apple.com", a special interest group on minor league baseball. My wife also runs a list on this machine "sharks@medraut.apple.com" on the San Jose Sharks, plus we have a private, invite-only list that hangs out around here. I've run a number of lists in the past (desktop-publishing, hypercard, OtherRealms, etc, etc, ad nauseum) far-too-many-years I've been on the net. If you want to send mail to me, I'm at chuq@medraut.apple.com. If you want more info about me, those requests should be routed to chuq-request@medraut.apple.com. From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 09:49:30 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00497; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:49:30 PST Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00479; Tue, 3 Nov 92 09:49:19 PST Received: from turing.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 ) with SMTP; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 17:49:38 GMT From: "John Martin" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:49:28 WET Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9211031711.AA00354@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>; from "Brent Chapman" at Nov 3, 92 9:11 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Someone is working on adding code to recognize these requests to the > "resend" perl program that I use to handle messages sent my mailing lists. > > Steve Miller's old "distribute" program used an interesting algorithm. > It counted the words in the message, and looked for words in certain > classes ("drop or add" words like "remove", "drop", "off", > "subscribe", "get", and "add"; "from or to" words like "from" and > "to"; and "mail words" like "mail", "mailing", "list", and "dl"). > Then, if the word count was < 25 and it had found at least one word in > each of the 3 classes, it assumed the message was a natural language > administrivia request. > This sounds like an extremely large overhead to me - especially when applied to *every* message to every list. What if you added the LISTSERV command set, and the MajorDomo, and the rest! The overhead would increase dramatically. Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Martin Computing Laboratory 091 222 8087 University of Newcastle upon Tyne John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 11:35:45 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00721; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:35:45 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00714; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:35:34 PST Received: from wxsat.UUCP by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA29226; Tue, 3 Nov 92 14:35:20 -0500 Received: by ssg.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 03 Nov 92 18:07:20 UTC for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "subscribe list-managers" From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 18:05:14 UTC In-Reply-To: <199211031219.AA07566@bronto.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Frank Elsner writes: > Brent Chapman wrote: > > Michael Urban writes: > > # subscribe list-managers > > # > > Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing > > lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to > > the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) > > What about building a mailing list expander which filters such messages > and sends a report to the originator ? > May require some work :-) > Actually, it's not that hard to do. A simple perl script can scan mail for obvious phrases and generate either a gripe message or forward the obviously mis-routed messages to the right place. The trick is catching the un-obvious blunders... Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "...don't forget to listen to the steady beat, | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | don't forget to balance on your ready feet." | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 11:38:25 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00737; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:38:25 PST Received: from sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00730; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:38:17 PST Message-Id: <9211031938.AA00730@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: by sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (16.8/16.2) id AA15024; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:38:34 -0800 To: Brent Chapman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 02 Nov 92 17:29:17 PST." <9211030129.AA28173@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> X-Face: %q"[Odr2u&o(@]W>9%kwwJ/Td+Ju5!en}ZHQ>G3)9%`RBr7Ct12Dj6LB\Qz@@j|YgfHymB~ Lc>qe:o+U{rh!RVuaYYd{+S4$8tPLu]Y$0<5x>rj-kuS"[eqLFME-('jwXR87s;A3I,=cW*D(> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Your message dated: Mon, 02 Nov 92 17:29:17 PST > (on the value of public correction of a misdirected SUBSCRIBE) > > While it might not reduce the traffic on this list, it might reduce > bogus traffic on other lists, and I think that's a good goal > considering the membership of this list... > I honestly do not follow your reasoning of how public humiliation might reduce this sort of traffic. First of all, in the case of this particular list, the parsimonious assumption is that the offending message was the result of a thoughtless error. The absurd unlikelihood that the individual did not know better is, after all, the basis of the irony that prompted the original response. So who is educated by this sort of discourse? The other people who read this list? The person who made the mistake? Even in the case of general-interest lists, when someone posts a misdirected SUBSCRIBE message, I cannot see the point of sending an instructive response to anyone other than the person who sent the message. After all, everyone else who is reading the messages on the list already knows how to subscribe (or were themselves corrected earlier). A public reprimand is simply a further waste of everyone's time and bandwidth, and is, frankly, simply rude behavior, of which this network already has a surfeit. If you really are interested in correcting this sort of spurious traffic, then -- speaking as someone who has just been reminded first-hand that even the best-educated of us will sometimes make careless mistakes -- I might suggest the widespread promulgation of a `subscribe' command, one that could use a machine-readable list of mailing lists (regularly disseminated through typical Usenet/Internet channels) and subscription methods (list server? foobar-request address?) and automatically concoct the appropriate message and send it along. This would be a positive and proactive step. At first contrite, now mildly irritated, Mike From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 11:58:08 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00768; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:58:08 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00761; Tue, 3 Nov 92 11:57:54 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa22918; 3 Nov 92 14:45 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01970; Tue, 3 Nov 92 14:46:44 EST Message-Id: <9211031946.AA01970@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:46:44 EST In-Reply-To: William LeFebvre "Re: Mailing list etiquette" (Nov 3, 11:03am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: William LeFebvre , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > GREAT idea. One question: HOW? > > How does a program determine that a posting is really a request? > Length? Key words? A combination of the two? Any algorithm you > come > up with will be heuristic in nature and prone to error. I'd LOVE to > put code in the sun-managers relay to eliminate such misplaced > requests, but I can't come up with a decent algorithm. Actually, as soon as you give up the idea that it must be perfect, it's pretty easy. You'll let a few subscription requests through, and you'll reject a few legitimate messages, but you'll improve things dramatically. First, we need to standardize on subscription requests. There are people still maintaining lists by hand, but they should tell folks a standard message to put in a mailr request. For lack of a better way, I suggest "subscribe list-name realname" (happens to be the Bitnet Listserv syntax). Here's the algorithm I use: If the message is 5 lines or less, and if it contains any of the words: subscribe, unsubscribe, signon, or signoff, it is returned to the user with a very polite message stating that we suspect that it was not a message to the list, but rather one to Listserv. It offers consolation, and, on the possibility that it was a real message, hints on how to avoid the command filter. It also sends the whole transaction to the list manager. Very easy, very effective. I don't think we've every rejected a legitimate message, although we have let a few non-standard subscription requests slip through. If it happens too often, you can revise the algorithm. I admit if you users are used to total free-form requests for subscriptions, it would be more difficult. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 13:05:41 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00843; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:05:41 PST Received: from yonge.csri.toronto.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00836; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:05:32 PST Received: from alias by yonge.csri.toronto.edu with UUCP id <14409>; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 16:05:15 -0500 Received: from dino.alias.com by barney.alias.com with SMTP id AA05587 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk); Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:52:10 -0500 Received: by dino.alias.com id AA01825 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:52:41 -0500 From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Message-Id: <9211032052.AA01825@dino.alias.com> Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk (John Martin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1992 15:52:39 -0500 Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: ; from "John Martin" at Nov 3, 92 12:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL8] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This sounds like an extremely large overhead to me - especially when > applied to *every* message to every list. What if you added the > LISTSERV command set, and the MajorDomo, and the rest! The overhead > would increase dramatically. A couple of excuses come to mind: 1) get a better computer. :-) There's no excuse for computational resource shortages in these modern times. On the other hand, Maybe I'm spoiled; the slowest machine on my network is a 25MHz R3000 box... 2) The overhead of this style of filtering is negligible compared to the resources used to expand the addressee list and deliver the mail to all recipients, especially when you consider the resources used on all the receiving machines. Chances are you're actually using less CPU by running such a filter. -- "You are at wit's end. | C. Harald Koch Alias Research, Inc. Toronto, ON Passages lead off in all | chk@alias.com (work-related mail) directions..." -related by | chk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (permanent address) Bryan Manske, 13-Aug-92 | VE3TLA@VE3OY.#SCON.ON.CA.NA (AMPRNet) From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 13:45:02 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00915; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:45:02 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00906; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:44:53 PST Received: from wxsat.UUCP by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA11861; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:44:35 -0500 Received: by ssg.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 03 Nov 92 20:45:14 UTC for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 20:40:38 UTC In-Reply-To: <9211031742.AA19334@medraut.apple.com> Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eeyore's Evil Twin writes: > > I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when > > someone posts such a subscription request > > Here's what I do: > > 1) my intro material specifically says that administrivia messages sent to > the wrong request will not be processed. > > 2) I actually enforce that. If someone tries to sign on or off the list by > posting to the real address instead of the -request address, I DON'T DO IT. > > 3) Instead, I send them a note reminding them of their mistake and include > the intro material again. Whew! Sounds kinda hard-nosed to me! People who send "unsubscribe" or "subscribe" to a list suffer the ignomy of getting it wrong before all on the list. If I catch the message, I'll act on it. If the sender complains about not being heard, I ask where the message went. But dump on someone for losing the admin address? Sounds pretty unfriendly to me. People, we need to remember that despite our exalted positions as list administrators or moderators, there really are people who just plain are unimpressed by this high position. This sort of ego tripping has been a mark of Fight-o-net; who needs it here? Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "...don't forget to listen to the steady beat, | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | don't forget to balance on your ready feet." | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 14:00:01 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00983; Tue, 3 Nov 92 14:00:01 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00974; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:59:54 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA05850; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:58:55 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA20103; Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:58:02 PST for rick@ssg.com Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 13:58:02 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211032158.AA20103@medraut.apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rick@ssg.com Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If the sender complains >about not being heard, I ask where the message went. But dump on someone >for losing the admin address? Sounds pretty unfriendly to me. Sorry, youn evidently missed the part of my post where I noted it had to be friendly, but firm. It's not a factor of losing the admin address, but generally not bothering to find it in the first place. Education only works if you do it in a positive way, and if you let them get away with not following the rules, you aren't educating. You're letting them get away with being lazy (or, at best, ignorant). >People, we need to remember that despite our exalted positions as list >administrators or moderators, there really are people who just plain are >unimpressed by this high position. This sort of ego tripping has been a >mark of Fight-o-net; who needs it here? It's not ego-tripping. I'm running the list for ALL my users, and the majority of the users follow the rules and really dislike the kind of noise these messages cause. You're saying I should make the list less useful to the majority of the users just so I don't make the ones who don't follow the rules unhappy? From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 14:15:16 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01169; Tue, 3 Nov 92 14:15:16 PST Received: from goose.aa.ox.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01157; Tue, 3 Nov 92 14:15:07 PST Received: by goose.aa.ox.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.22.1 #22.9) id ; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:15 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:15 EST From: paulh@ox.com (Paul Haas) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Dealing with inappropriate discussions Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I hope this hasn't come up today. I switched from the digest version to the realtime version of the mailing list today, so I haven't had a chance to read todays traffic. There seems to be a discussion in progress about how to deal with administrivia sent to the list, this message is about how I dealt with another type of inappropriate message. Someone posted a somewhat questionable article to the mailing list that I manage. This lead to a flame war about whether it was appropriate to post the article. Naturally, the flame war used up more bandwidth than the original article. I created a mailing list to discuss what is appropriate for the first list and put anyone who was part of the flame war onto the new mailing list. So far it seems to have worked. I won't really know until the next inappropriate posting. As a list maintainer of an unmoderated list, it appears I am limited to the following techniques for dealing with inappropriate postings: 1. Moderate the list (I'm too lazy for that) 2. Send private mail saying "Don't do that". 3. Send mail to the whole list saying "Nobody do that", perhaps monthly or weekly in the form of a FAQ message. 4. Publicly humiliate people. 5. Have a filter recognize inappropriate postings and bounce them (possibly usefull for blocking naive subscribe/unsubscribe requests) 6. Remove offenders from the list (if they want to they can go to an exploder) 7. Add offenders to another list (ie. clueless or my appropriateness list) Do we as list maintainers have any other tools at our disposal? I think the faster a problem is dealt with, the smaller the burst of unsubscribe requests. I was shocked when I got several requests subscribe to my appropriateness list. I guess some people like that sort of thing. --- Paul Haas work:paulh@ox.com home:paulh@hamjudo.mi.org From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 15:40:49 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01361; Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:40:49 PST Received: from relay2.UU.NET by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01354; Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:40:40 PST Received: from uunet.uu.net (via LOCALHOST.UU.NET) by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA23912; Tue, 3 Nov 92 18:09:45 -0500 Received: from drd.UUCP by uunet.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 180806.19043; Tue, 3 Nov 1992 18:08:06 EST Received: from tierra.drd by drd.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03365; Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:25:57 CST From: mark@drd.com (Resident.Alien) Message-Id: <9211032125.AA03365@drd.com> Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 15:25:56 CST Reply-To: mark.lawrence@drd.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Forwarded message: : From: Eeyore's Evil Twin : > I won't give any specific suggestions on what "should" happen when : > someone posts such a subscription request : : Here's what I do: : : 1) my intro material specifically says that administrivia messages sent to : the wrong request will not be processed. : : 2) I actually enforce that. If someone tries to sign on or off the list by : posting to the real address instead of the -request address, I DON'T DO IT. : : 3) Instead, I send them a note reminding them of their mistake and include : the intro material again. The majority of mis-directed admin requests for framers fall into two categories: Those who are asking to subscribe (and in my particular case, the demographics make for a large population who've never subscribed to a mailing list before and framers is their 'first time') and those who are unsubscribing. In the former case, they genuinely had no idea about the -request convention so chastising them seems rude and unwelcoming. In the latter case, the sound of the door slamming behind them them only serves to annoy and irritate the readers staying behind. I simply handle these requests silently (though the instructions e-mailed to new subscribers is pretty clear about how admin requests should be handled in the future). ! When you have anything of an administrative nature (like address ! change, address deletion, request for help in reaching someone; that ! kind of thing), please e-mail to 'framers-request@uunet.uu.net'. This ! is somewhat of a convention on the Internet/Usenet -- administrative ! addresses are the name of the mailing list suffixed with '-request'. ! You'll see it often. Above all, please DO NOT mail "please remove me" ! requests to the Submissions address! Your hair will fall out and you ! will contract athelete's foot if you do. If you don't know how you got ! on distribution, contact your local postmaster and ask if you are being ! carried on a local alias for framers. -- mark.lawrence@drd.com a.k.a. framers-request@drd.com DRD Corp., 5506 South Lewis Ave., Tulsa, OK 74105 (918)745-9037 fax From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 16:15:29 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01439; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:15:29 PST Received: from cs.utexas.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01432; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:15:22 PST Received: from rascal.ics.utexas.edu by cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.140) with SMTP id AA15518; Tue, 3 Nov 92 18:15:10 -0600 Received: by rascal.ics.utexas.edu (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA19366; Tue, 3 Nov 92 18:14:42 CST Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 18:14:40 CST From: Werner Uhrig Reply-To: werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mailer: MM v0.90 Subject: Being SMART when running a mailing-list (was Re: List Managers Digest V1 #4) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 01:10:05 PST Message-Id: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk there are a certain number of things that a "smart" list-moderator can do to "reduce" hick-ups; the current motivated me to write this article in response to Brent Chapman saying: Hey, gang, what should we do with people who supposedly manage mailing lists that send subscription requests to the whole list instead of to the "-request" address or to Majordomo? :-) well, Brent, rather than asking "what shall we do TO...", we might want to take the attitude "how can we do better" or "what could have been done (by a clever poster/moderator) to avoid the flop in the first place"... hint: avoid FROM, REPLY-TO, SENDER, RETURN-PATH headers which point to an address which you DEFINITELY do not want a response to be sent to !! for example, the digest (I just received) arrived here with the following headers: Return-Path: From: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM my mailer (automatically) generated from this a REPLY-address: To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM lesson to learn here: make the (little?) effort to include a REPLY-TO header, pointing to the "right address" ... correlary: in a message soliciting messages to be sent to an automatized server-address, AVOID, LIKE THE PLAGUE, that any address appear in the headers to which you DEFINITELY do NOT want a message to be sent ... (make the poster DECIDE and WORK to make "a mistake"... ;-) last, but not least: let's avoid "holier than though" messages... ...for I know that Murphy is ("sitting not only on my shoulder") smiling smuckly... Cheers, ---Werner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | werner@cs.utexas.edu | ..!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner | werner@UTXVM.bitnet | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- sound bite (the local news just now, reporting on George Bush's activities today in Houston): after voting, he went and bought some country music and, among other things, a hunting license to "go shoot Qyayle (sp?!?)... (makes me wonder if he has considered a Star Wars "Raygun" or some of that Reagan mind-altering voodoo poison for bait...) PS: Representative Henry Gonzales (Ways and Means committee chairman) is right: IMPEACH THE CRIMINALS!! (check a tape of "60 Minutes", Nov 1, 92) From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 16:17:41 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01456; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:17:41 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01449; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:17:33 PST Received: from wxsat.UUCP by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA28208; Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:17:54 -0500 Received: by ssg.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 03 Nov 92 23:55:41 UTC for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Coping with the brain dead From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 23:45:22 UTC Organization: System Support Group Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All of my lists have subscribers throughout the world. Most speak (well, write) English quite well but a few... ah, well, they make reading a challenge. One fellow from a third world country just can't quite get the information in my help message. Rather than attack the guy in the list, I just keep sending him advice in hopes that one day he'll finally see the light. To date *none* of the remaining 150+ subscribers have written "get outta here" or "get a life." I don't have time to invest on impressing my rules on people who won't listen. If I get an unsubscribe, they're toast. It's neat, tidy, and saves time and bandwidth. If they send a subscribe, I assume they saw a copy of message somewhere and sign them up. I also send a "welcome" message explaining the way to use the list. 99.999 times out a hundred that works. I've had maybe three or four real twits show up. The fix, if they don't care to behave with courtesy or consideration, is simple. Their name vanishes from the mail list. Bye, bye! I find censorship abhorent. On the other hand, I know the brain police do show up in funny places. If I find someone feels obliged to carry on in a way I find inappropriate and they don't want to take a suggestion, so much for that. I pull the big switch. After all, it's my computer. Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "...don't forget to listen to the steady beat, | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | don't forget to balance on your ready feet." | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 16:35:22 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01488; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:35:22 PST Received: from garlic.inset.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01481; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:35:15 PST Received: by garlic.inset.com (Sendmail:5.51/Cf:Jr.2.6) id AA12134; Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:30:36 EST From: Adam S. Moskowitz Message-Id: <9211040030.AA12134@garlic.inset.com> Subject: The lists we manage To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:29:52 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As if we all don't have enough mail to read, how about we each post a short not saying what lists we maintain and (briefly) what the charter of those lists are. Also, maybe the size of the list and how you manage it. I've already learned of two new, interesting lists just from the examples folks have given. So, to kick things off, here's my list of lists: bblisa@inset.com - the mailing list of the Back Bay Large Installations Systems Adninistrations group. BB-LISA is semi-affiliated with USENIX, and is similar in scope to Bay LISA (San Francisco Bay, that is). Mostly meeting announcements, with the rare question. (For the geographical-nick-name-impaired, Back Bay is a section of Boston, MA.) About 200 ``members,'' with 13 expander lists attached. I manage it by hand, since after initial flood passed it's only 2 - 3 requests each week. (Not only that, I'm still resisting learning perl!) (Short list, huh?) AdamM From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 16:39:53 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01514; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:39:53 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01506; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:39:49 PST Message-Id: <9211040039.AA01506@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Being SMART when running a mailing-list (was Re: List Managers Digest V1 #4) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 18:14:40 CST Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 16:39:47 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Werner Uhrig writes: # well, Brent, rather than asking "what shall we do TO...", we # might want to take the attitude "how can we do better" or # "what could have been done (by a clever poster/moderator) # to avoid the flop in the first place"... My point was made in jest that, of all possible people on the Internet, someone subscribing to a list for mailing list managers _ought_ to know the well-established conventions for subscribing to a list. # hint: avoid FROM, REPLY-TO, SENDER, RETURN-PATH headers # which point to an address which you DEFINITELY do not # want a response to be sent to !! # # for example, the digest (I just received) arrived here with # the following headers: # # Return-Path: # From: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM # To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM # Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM # Sender: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM # # my mailer (automatically) generated from this a REPLY-address: # # To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM # # lesson to learn here: make the (little?) effort to include # a REPLY-TO header, pointing to the "right address" ... I don't see your point. I put the "Reply-To" header in precisely BECAUSE I want replies to go to the whole list. My goal with this list is to encourage discussion. This is NOT a high-volume list like Sun-Managers (at least, not yet), where it's appropriate for everybody to respond to the poster and the poster to summarize to the list. # correlary: in a message soliciting messages to be sent to # an automatized server-address, AVOID, LIKE THE PLAGUE, that # any address appear in the headers to which you DEFINITELY do # NOT want a message to be sent ... (make the poster DECIDE and # WORK to make "a mistake"... ;-) The mailing list address did NOT appear in the headers of any message I mailed out or posted concerning the creation of List-Managers. The only place I can think of where the mailing list address appears in the headers and instructions for joining appear in the body of a messages is in the digests, and that's kind of hard to avoid, since the instructions for joining are appended to each digest. I chose to optimize the headers for the common case: somebody replying to a message in the digest, not for the uncommon case: somebody getting a copy of the digest "third hand" and following the subscription instructions at the bottom. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 16:48:55 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01558; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:48:55 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01550; Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:48:51 PST Message-Id: <9211040048.AA01550@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The lists we manage In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:29:52 EST Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 16:48:50 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # As if we all don't have enough mail to read, how about we each post a # short not saying what lists we maintain and (briefly) what the charter # of those lists are. Also, maybe the size of the list and how you manage # it. I've already learned of two new, interesting lists just from the # examples folks have given. Uhh... I manage 19 SAGE-related mailing lists on USENIX.ORG and 7 here at GreatCircle.COM; a thumbnail sketch of each would get rather long, so I'll just hit the highlights. I use Majordomo to manage most of my lists (naturally, since I wrote it). Majordomo was specificly written to manage the SAGE lists, after I was crazy enough to volunteer as SAGE-Postmaster at the SAGE kickoff meeting at the Summer USENIX in San Antonio last summer. The lists I manage here at GreatCircle.COM include List-Managers and List-Managers-Digest (naturally), Firewalls and Firewalls-Digest, Majordomo-Users, Majordomo-Announce, and 3 different Civil Air Patrol lists. That really does make 7; I consider Firewalls and Firewalls-Digest to be one list, since the exact same content goes to both (and similarly for List-Managers and List-Managers-Digest). List-Managers and List-Managers-Digest are about 70 and 25 users, respectively. Nice, small, quiet lists! :-) Majordomo-Users and Majordomo-Announce are about 30 users each. The real killers are Firewalls and Firewalls-Digest. 625 users on Firewalls and 125 on Firewalls-Digest. Over 600 of those 750 subscribers joined during the first 3 days after Firewalls was announced. Talk about a "success disaster"! If I hadn't had Majordomo, I really would have been hurting; I was expecting more like 50-60 users when I set up Firewalls. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 17:32:29 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01727; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:32:29 PST Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01720; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:32:23 PST Received: by Ra.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.5m-FWP); id AA26628; Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:10:10 CST Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:10:10 CST From: Natalie Maynor Message-Id: <9211040110.AA26628@Ra.MsState.Edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The lists we manage Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I subscribed because I'm about to start a list running on UNIX listserv version 5.5 and need to learn as much as I can about running lists with programs other than Eric Thomas's LISTSERV. I run two LISTSERV lists on a remote system, WORDS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (a discussion of the English language or anything else the subscribers want to discuss) and ADS-L@UGA. CC.UGA.EDU (for members of the American Dialect Society). Because I'm so used to Eric's LISTSERV, I was amused today at comments about listname- request as being a "standard." The list I'm about to start is SMOKE-FREE@ RA.MSSTATE.EDU, a support list for people trying to quit smoking. --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu) (non-techy English Professor) From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 17:43:38 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01844; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:43:38 PST Received: from kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01837; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:43:24 PST Received: from debretts.comp.vuw.ac.nz by kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz id (5.65cVUW/5.2 for ) with SMTP; Wed, 4 Nov 1992 14:43:00 +1300 From: Andy Linton Message-Id: <199211040143.AA24814@kaukau.comp.vuw.ac.nz> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The lists we manage X-Organization: Victoria University, PO Box 600, Wellington, NEW ZEALAND X-Phone: +64 4 495 5054 (Work) or +64 4 499 1819 (Home) X-Fax: +64 4 495 5232 X-Mailer: XMH/mh 6.7.2 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1992 14:42:59 +1300 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've currently got 168 lists with a total of 2200 names in them. Weeding out duplicates gives around 800 different names. Some of these are 'public' lists which people can add their names to and some are 'private' e.g. lecturers. I use 'sendmail' and a program of my own called 'distribute': DISTRIBUTE(8) UNIX Programmer's Manual DISTRIBUTE(8) NAME distribute - mailing list distribution program SYNOPSIS distribute listname(s) DESCRIPTION Distribute adds extra headers to messages to mailing lists and then resends the message. This is done so that if there is an error in the list (old mailboxes, misspelt mailnames etc.) the error message gets sent to the owner of the list and not to the original sender. The original sender is rarely in a position to fix any problems and often is con- fused by error messages coming from apparently random sites. EXAMPLE It requires this sort of setup in the sendmail aliases file: listname:"|/usr/local/lib/mail/distribute listname" listname-request:asjl@comp.vuw.ac.nz listname-xxx::include:/usr/local/lib/mail/lists/listname The user addresses mail to "listname", "listname-request" is the person responsible for the list and "listname-xxx" is a pointer to the list to expand for delivery. I also provide a simple 'listserv' program. The help file follows. By all means look at how things work but please don't add yourself to lists on our server without considering this: Mail sent across the Pacific link from New Zealand costs my university *real dollars* each month. The LISTSERV Basic Help ----------------------- This server will give you details of mailing lists which are publicly available from the Computer Science department at VUW. These lists are generally 'fanouts' of lists available via the Internet. We already import these lists into New Zealand and so it is preferable if interested parties subscribe to the local fanout. This means that our trans-Pacific link is not carrying the same data multiple times. To use the server send a message to "listserv@comp.vuw.ac.nz" with commands in the message. Unlike some automatic mail servers, the Subject: line is not parsed for commands. The commands are: help help listname This help file or some info about a particular list is sent. index longindex An index of available lists is sent. expand listname A list of those currently subscribed to the list is sent. add listname add mail_address listname Add the sender (or "mail_address") to "listname". The command 'subscribe' is synonymous with 'add'. delete listname delete mail_address listname Delete the sender (or "mail_address") from "listname". The command 'unsubscribe' is synonymous with 'delete'. If you have difficulties or suggestions for other lists, please contact: listmaster@comp.vuw.ac.nz From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 17:43:58 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01866; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:43:58 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01857; Tue, 3 Nov 92 17:43:54 PST Message-Id: <9211040143.AA01857@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The lists we manage In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 19:10:10 CST Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 17:43:53 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # I subscribed because I'm about to start a list running on UNIX listserv # version 5.5 and need to learn as much as I can about running lists with # programs other than Eric Thomas's LISTSERV. I run two LISTSERV lists # on a remote system, WORDS-L@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (a discussion of the English # language or anything else the subscribers want to discuss) and ADS-L@UGA. # CC.UGA.EDU (for members of the American Dialect Society). Because I'm # so used to Eric's LISTSERV, I was amused today at comments about listname- # request as being a "standard." The list I'm about to start is SMOKE-FREE@ # RA.MSSTATE.EDU, a support list for people trying to quit smoking. # --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu) # (non-techy English Professor) Mailing lists have existed on the Internet for probably 15 or 20 years now, and the "-request" convention was probably established almost that long ago. Does anybody know what the first big mailing list (in those days, big was probably 10-20 users) on the Internet was? How about which list first started pushing the "-request" convention? LISTSERV implementations have been standard on BITNET for years, but they've only become available for the Internet within the last 3-5 years. The Internet "-request" tradition was well established long before Internet LISTSERVs started showing up in significant numbers. When I create a list under Majordomo, I also create a "-request" alias. If somebody sends something to the "-request" alias, they get back a friendly note explaining that this list is managed by Majordomo, and telling them how to use Majordomo to accomplish what they desire, or how to contact a human if they really want to talk to something that breathes. I'd strongly encourage anybody setting up a mailing list on the Internet to provide a "-request" alias, even if all it does is send back a recording. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 21:45:49 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02167; Tue, 3 Nov 92 21:45:49 PST Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02160; Tue, 3 Nov 92 21:45:35 PST Received: from zorch.UUCP by ames.arc.nasa.gov with UUCP id AA04615 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 3 Nov 1992 18:33:56 -0800 Received: by zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (/\==/\ Smail3.1.22.1 #22.2) id ; Tue, 3 Nov 92 21:02 PST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 21:03 PST From: scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The lists we manage Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >As if we all don't have enough mail to read, how about we each post a >short not saying what lists we maintain and (briefly) what the charter >of those lists are. Also, maybe the size of the list and how you manage it. In order of age: unix-pc-net (defunct) - redistribution of the unix-pc.* newsgroups. Fusion Digest - redistribution of sci.physics.fusion. This is actually a bi-directional mail/news gateway. The news->mail side is digestified by some home-grown code originally written for the unix-pc-net list. The mail->news return side is moderated to avoid getting mailer splat posted all over the net. There are 35 addresses on the list (down from a peak of about 130 in 1989), one of which is a BITNET LISTSERV that explodes to about 200 more addresses. Info-Tandem - Discussion of Tandem Guardian and UNIX computers. Currently just an unmoderated reflector. There are currently 45 addresses on this list. Weather-Users - For sharing of tips, hints and code to utilize IP-accessible weather servers. Jeff Masters (maintainer of the U Mich weather servers) has agreed to post announcements of status and changes to this list. The list is currently at 151 addresses, with about 3-5 new subscriptions per week. The first two lists are (were) managed with some home-brew scripts, since they are mail/news gateways, and r$'s code looked too complicated for my usage. I manage the subscriptions by hand for all of my lists, though I am looking at Brent's majordomo package. The latter two lists, since they are unmoderated reflectors, have filters installed on the submission address that scan for mailer splat and forward it to me for examination. Users posting as root can fool the filters, but that's life. I use procmail as the filter, since the control file format is pretty trivial. I've told Brent that I'll look at his Perl 'send' script - the one he uses on his lists - to try to filter administrivia, and when I do that I may well use the script on my own lists. -- Moderator, news.admin.technical; submissions to natech@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG. Moderator, ba.announce; submissions to ba-announce@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG. Moderator, rec.arts.sf.announce; submissions to sf-announce@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG. From List-Managers-Owner Tue Nov 3 22:50:09 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02222; Tue, 3 Nov 92 22:50:09 PST Received: from cs.columbia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02213; Tue, 3 Nov 92 22:50:03 PST Received: from tiemann.cs.columbia.edu by cs.columbia.edu (5.65c/0.6/jba+ad) with SMTP id AA06932; Wed, 4 Nov 1992 01:50:20 -0500 Received: by tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+) id AA00889; Wed, 4 Nov 92 01:50:19 EST Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 01:50:19 EST From: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (Alexander Dupuy) Message-Id: <9211040650.AA00889@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Brent Chapman's message of Tue, 03 Nov 92 17:43:53 -0800 <9211040143.AA01857@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Subject: The lists we manage Reply-To: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manage a Unix LISTSERV system with four mailing lists and a total subscription of about 700. I'm interested in providing better integration between the mail based services provided by LISTSERV and other information retrieval utilities like Archie, Gopher, FTP, WAIS, etc. Although this is a little bit off-topic for this list, I would be interested in discussion on Internet standards or other methods which could be used to promote this. The Internet has rapidly become one of the largest and most widely used data repositories in existence, especially if mail-based access is included. Mailing lists play an important part in this, and their managers should be in the forefront of the effort to integrate the various services. @alex P.S. Rereading the last paragraph, I realize it sounds a bit like a political speech - I guess I've been watching too much of the election, and not getting enough sleep :-) From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 04:34:29 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02914; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:34:29 PST Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02900; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:34:10 PST Received: from turing.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 for ) with SMTP; Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:34:07 GMT From: "John Martin" Message-Id: Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:03:50 WET Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9211032052.AA01825@dino.alias.com>; from "C. Harald Koch" at Nov 3, 92 3:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Re: > > > This sounds like an extremely large overhead to me - especially when > > applied to *every* message to every list. What if you added the > > LISTSERV command set, and the MajorDomo, and the rest! The overhead > > would increase dramatically. > > A couple of excuses come to mind: > > 1) get a better computer. :-) OK - what I should have said (given the context of the rest of my message) was "This sounds like an extremely *unnecessary* overhead to me" Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Martin Computing Laboratory 091 222 8087 University of Newcastle upon Tyne John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 04:44:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02944; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:44:52 PST Received: from garlic.inset.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02936; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:44:34 PST Received: by garlic.inset.com (Sendmail:5.51/Cf:Jr.2.6) id AA21435; Wed, 4 Nov 92 07:40:03 EST From: Adam S. Moskowitz Message-Id: <9211041240.AA21435@garlic.inset.com> Subject: Mail receiver software To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 7:40:00 EST In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Hazen Mueller" at Nov 3, 92 9:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I realize that his is only tangential to list-management, but it's related nonetheless. In his message of Tue, 3 Nov 92 21:03 PST, scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) wrote: > I use procmail as the filter, since the control file format > is pretty trivial. How many other folks out there get so much mail that they have to use an automatic filter? I would imagine that folks who run several lists by hand would want to have incoming requests sorted into different mailboxes, one for each list. For the folks that do use a filter, which one do you use? I recently started using Chip Salzenberg's deliver (I'm a big fan of things that use sh scripts). After only a week, I'm quite satisfied. (For reference, I have about 100 messages a day delivered to any of 20 mailboxes.) AdamM From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 04:46:16 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02965; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:46:16 PST Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA02958; Wed, 4 Nov 92 04:45:56 PST Received: from turing.ncl.ac.uk by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 for ) with SMTP; Wed, 4 Nov 1992 12:46:10 GMT From: "John Martin" Message-Id: Subject: Re: The lists we manage To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:46:04 WET In-Reply-To: ; from "Scott Hazen Mueller" at Nov 3, 92 9:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Re: > As if we all don't have enough mail to read, how about we each post a > short not saying what lists we maintain and (briefly) what the charter > of those lists are. Also, maybe the size of the list and how you manage it. I am Postmaster/programmer for the Mailbase Project which provides a mailing list service fo UK non-computing academics. We do *not* allow non-UK based lists, or computing specific lists. The National Service started in February this year and we have around 200 lists with about 12000 total susbscriptions. We get around 800 new susbscriptions and 10-20 new lists each month. The prototype has been going since 1991. The project employs 2 programmers, one User Group Support person, one secretary, a documentation officer and a manager. We use a command interpreter called 'Mailbase' which was written here at Newcastle and is being continually developed. Commands are sent to 'Mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk'. There is also a 'Mailbase-helpline@mailbase.ac.uk' for general user queries. (NB: mailbase-admin, mailbase-request, mailbase-helpdesk... etc all wrok as well) Messages to lists are sent to 'listname@mailbase.ac.uk' and are archived automatically. The list owner is: 'listname-request@mailbase.ac.uk' and the list moderator (if applicable), is 'listname-moderator@mailbase.ac.uk' List owners can also add files for retrieval via e-mail using a template. Users can retrieve the archives/ files via e-mail or FTP. There is also an on-line service where users can login and browse details of lists, descriptions, membership and the archives/files. The service is based on a large RDBMS - Ingres on a Sun4/470 - and is written in C/ESQLC, bourne shell and now perl. Mailing list expansion uses an adapted version of the Andy Linton 'distribute' code. We are currently looking at developing both a WAIS interface and incorporating an X.500 service If you want more details, send the commands: index mailbase send mailbase user-card send mailbase owner-card stop to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk ('stop' makes it ignore your .sig) - or contact me. Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Martin Computing Laboratory 091 222 8087 University of Newcastle upon Tyne John.Martin@newcastle.ac.uk Newcastle upon Tyne, UK. ------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 08:13:08 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03235; Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:13:08 PST Received: from ames.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03228; Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:12:46 PST Received: from zorch.UUCP by ames.arc.nasa.gov with UUCP id AA18293 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Wed, 4 Nov 1992 04:53:54 -0800 Received: by zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (/\==/\ Smail3.1.22.1 #22.2) id ; Wed, 4 Nov 92 07:17 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 07:18 PST From: scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mail receiver software Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>I use procmail as the filter, since the control file format >>is pretty trivial. >How many other folks out there get so much mail that they have to use an >automatic filter? [...] For the folks that do use a filter, which one do you >use? I recently >started using Chip Salzenberg's deliver (I'm a big fan of >things that use sh scripts). [...] I used to use a shell-based filter script (a couple of different variants, actually). My original filter was called from .forward; that one got the sysadmin upset because it was sending him error messages every time the system ran out of virtual memory. That also bothered me somewhat, since it meant that my mail was getting toasted. Rev. 2 actually called mail and fed it commands so that I could take advantage of mail's built-in locking. It peeled one message out of the mailbox at a time and filtered and filed it. That was kind of slow. I dumped all that in favor of procmail, which the author advertises as being bullet-proofed against things like low-memory conditions, fork failures and whatnot. I've been real happy with it. I use it both at work (to sort about 200 mail messages daily) and at home (to sort about another 50) into about 12-15 folders in both cases. \scott From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 08:26:39 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03263; Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:26:39 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03256; Wed, 4 Nov 92 08:26:18 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA24315; Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:26:20 CST Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:26:20 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9211041626.AA24315@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: The lists we manage Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I currently manage only one mailing list: sun-managers. (Isn't that enough? :-) ) It's primary purpose is to provide managers of sun machines with a quick way to tap the collective knowledge of other such people on the network, especially when they are faced with a seemingly unsolvable problem. Sun-managers currently has 1515 addresses in its subscription list. At least 471 of these addresses, or 31%, appear to be local exploders, or aliases for more than one person. If you make a conservative estimate that the average local exploder hits 3 people, then this list reaches about 2500 people. But then I know for a fact that it is dumped in to many local news systems, so it is prety much impossible to estimate total readership. I also know for a fact that paper copies of messages appearing on sun-managers make the rounds to those who don't read it directly. My biggest problems at this point: 1: inappropriate traffic: topics that are only ancillary and not directly related to the list's charter. 2: high traffic: about 15 to 20 messages a day. 3: mail loops: we get about 1 every other month it seems, usually caused by someone who misconfigured a mail/news gateway. 4: people who don't know to send requests to -request. William LeFebvre Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Northwestern University From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 09:01:37 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03333; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:01:37 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03324; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:01:34 PST Message-Id: <9211041701.AA03324@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mail receiver software In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 4 Nov 92 7:40:00 EST Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 09:01:33 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam S. Moskowitz writes: # How many other folks out there get so much mail that they have to use an # automatic filter? I would imagine that folks who run several lists by # hand would want to have incoming requests sorted into different # mailboxes, one for each list. My personal problem is that if I sort stuff out of my inbox into special mailboxes before I deal with it, I'll never get around to dealing with it and it will just rot there in the special mailbox. My personal operating style is to keep messages in my inbox until I've dealt with them, and to try to keep my inbox down to 50-100 messages. There are 150 in it this morning, so guess what I get to do today? :-) I use MH and the "mh-e" mode of Emacs (only thing I use Emacs for). I do have a little "sort" script that I wrote (after stealing the idea from Erik Fair) that shuffles my inbox to group related messages (for instance, to group all the bounces together, and all the Majordomo notices and requests together, and so forth), but I only run it when my mailbox gets really huge (like when it's 500 messages because I've been away for a couple of days). -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 09:05:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03359; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:05:20 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03352; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:05:13 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA06880; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:05:03 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA20793; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:04:20 PST for mark.lawrence@drd.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:04:20 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211041704.AA20793@medraut.apple.com> To: mark.lawrence@drd.com Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In the former case, they genuinely had no idea >about the -request convention so chastising them seems rude and >unwelcoming. In the latter case, the sound of the door slamming behind >them them only serves to annoy and irritate the readers staying behind. Is anyone out there reading what I said, as opposed to commenting on what they think I might have said? Hello? HELLO? Did I ever use words like chastise? Didn't I emphasize the need to do it in a friendly and productive way? Hey, feel free to comment on my technique all you want, but please avoid writing your own subtext into my attitudes, and then jump on me for your own additions. From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 09:29:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03486; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:29:52 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03477; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:29:48 PST Message-Id: <9211041729.AA03477@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Internationalization of mailing lists Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 09:29:47 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here are some statistics on List-Managers and Firewalls: mycroft 370 % addr_stats.pl /usr/local/mail/lists/firewalls{,-digest} 296 com 25 uk 6 nl 4 at 1 1 nz 158 edu 20 org 6 no 3 fi 1 bit 1 pt 51 gov 16 net 5 ch 3 it 1 br 35 au 10 de 5 kr 3 sg 1 ie 35 mil 8 fr 5 se 2 be 1 il 34 ca 6 jp 5 us 2 dk 1 mx USA 581 (77.36 %) Non-USA 170 (22.64 %) Total 751 mycroft 371 % addr_stats.pl /usr/local/mail/lists/list-managers{,-digest} 37 com 3 ca 3 uk 1 bit 1 jp 1 us 34 edu 3 mil 2 net 1 ch 1 no 8 gov 3 org 1 au 1 de 1 nz USA 88 (87.13 %) Non-USA 13 (12.87 %) Total 101 I think the international presence on these lists is great, and really says something about how the world is changing at a grass-roots level. What do the rest of you see on your lists? The "addr_stats.pl" perl script is available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM in file pub/list-managers/addr_stats.shar, if you want to play with it. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 09:52:27 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03525; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:52:27 PST Received: from mozart.aero.ufl.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03518; Wed, 4 Nov 92 09:52:21 PST Received: from localhost by mozart.aero.ufl.edu (5.61ufl/4.10) id AA05290; Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:51:58 -0500 Message-Id: <9211041751.AA05290@mozart.aero.ufl.edu> To: scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mail receiver software In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Nov 92 07:18:00 PST." Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 12:51:57 -0500 From: mauricio@mozart.aero.ufl.edu X-Mts: smtp Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I dumped all that in favor of procmail, which the author advertises as being > bullet-proofed against things like low-memory conditions, fork failures and > whatnot. I've been real happy with it. I use it both at work (to sort about > 200 mail messages daily) and at home (to sort about another 50) into about > 12-15 folders in both cases. How complicate is to install procmail? Can it work as a mail server also? From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 11:03:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03793; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:03:33 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03786; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:03:19 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa05321; 4 Nov 92 13:38 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03091; Wed, 4 Nov 92 13:40:13 EST Message-Id: <9211041840.AA03091@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:40:12 EST In-Reply-To: Eeyore's Evil Twin "Re: Mailing list etiquette" (Nov 4, 9:04am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Eeyore's Evil Twin , mark.lawrence@drd.com Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is anyone out there reading what I said, as opposed to commenting on what > they think I might have said? Hello? HELLO? > > Did I ever use words like chastise? Didn't I emphasize the need to do it in > a friendly and productive way? > Hey, feel free to comment on my technique all you want, but please avoid > writing your own subtext into my attitudes, and then jump on me for your own > additions. Hey, this is great. A brand new list, and we're already into a major flame war within the first week. This is about the lowest signal to noise ratio of any list I read. But, I'll take the "feel free" challenge above. I read your original message, and no matter how friendly or polite you are, the bottom line is that you don't help your users directly, but rather seek to educate them. With the same amount of energy that you expend to educate them, you could fulfil their requests. The problem with the education approach in this context is that many users don't deal enough with Listservs that they can ever be expected to become competent. Others are competent, but make mistakes (I fall in that category). Educating them is futile. Since it doesn't in any way solve any of the problems presented, it can be interpretted as rude. Put in a filter. Our filter actually does what you do; that is send a message back to the user. But it only does that because it was easier to write and I was lazy. The better approach would be to forward the message to the appropriate list. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 11:05:15 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03811; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:05:15 PST Received: from brazil.cambridge.apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03804; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:05:09 PST Received: from ministry.cambridge.apple.com by brazil.cambridge.apple.com with SMTP (5.64/25-eef) id AA28591; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:10:06 -0500 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by cambridge.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA11249; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:04:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:04:45 -0500 From: Sean Brunnock Message-Id: <9211041904.AA11249@cambridge.apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: William LeFebvre's message of Wed, 4 Nov 92 10:26:20 CST <9211041626.AA24315@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> Subject: loops Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I manage mailing lists related to Dylan (the language, 550 addresses at the moment. The mailing lists were announced on Sept. 24 and boy are my fingers tired! Wish I knew about Majordomo before now), OODLs (100 addresses), and soon, Macintosh Common LISP (290 adresses). On the subject of loops, the way I handle them is to: 1.) Make our mail server a slow machine. Ours is a IIfx running A/UX. When loops occur, mail piles up on our server rather than getting forwarded to the list as fast as it receives them. 2.) As soon as I discover a loop (usually from other people in the office, I'm not religious about the subjects here) I freeze mail on the server (chmod 000 /usr/spool/mqueue/*) and freeze the list by commenting out its entry in the aliases file and uncommenting the entry I have there for emergencies which forwards the mail to the owners of the list and saves stuff to a seperate file). 3.) Examine the headers of the messages. Fix the problem if it originates from our site. Make noise if elsewhere. 4.) Delete the bad messages from the spool. Unfreeze the spool. 5.) Change the aliases file as soon as the problem is rectified. 6.) Edit the temporary file and append it to the regular archive. I wouldn't be surprised if there were software which could detect loops and take action. If there is, then I'll put it on our server, but I'll still be prepared (slow server, comments in the aliases) for any contingencies. Sean Brunnock From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 11:24:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03873; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:24:33 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA03865; Wed, 4 Nov 92 11:24:29 PST Message-Id: <9211041924.AA03865@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: loops In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:04:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 11:24:28 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sean Brunnock writes: # I wouldn't be surprised if there were software which could detect # loops and take action. If there is, then I'll put it on our server, # but I'll still be prepared (slow server, comments in the aliases) # for any contingencies. Hey, Bill, wanna tell us all about Sun-Managers and Mailing List Loops >From Hell? :-) -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 12:12:19 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04015; Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:12:19 PST Received: from garlic.inset.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04003; Wed, 4 Nov 92 12:12:11 PST Received: by garlic.inset.com (Sendmail:5.51/Cf:Jr.2.6) id AA13059; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:07:55 EST From: Adam S. Moskowitz Message-Id: <9211042007.AA13059@garlic.inset.com> Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:07:52 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In his message of Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:40:12 EST, "Michael H. Morse" wrote: > the bottom line is that you don't help your users directly, but rather > seek to educate them. > . . . > With the same amount of energy that you expend to educate them, > you could fulfil their requests. I disagree with you that attempting to educate folks is bad (or wasted effort). I think it's even worse to perpetuate their failure to learn by fulfilling their mis-directed request. Somebody, somewhere, has to do some work. Now, either you and I and all the other mailing list managers can spend all of our times doing other people's work for them, or they can do it themselves. I look at mailing lists the same way I look at ATMs: You either learn to use them or you don't get your money. On BB-LISA, if someone sends a subscription request to the list, I may or may not send them a simple note asking them to send it to bblisa-request instead. If they don't do it, I don't add them. If I'm busy, I may ignore their mis-directed request. Too bad for them. If they send to the list asking why they haven't seen anything, someone else will usually point them to the right mailing list. However, I'm happy to say that BB-LISA seems to have a better track record that List-Managers: I think we only got 1 mis-directed request. Maybe SysAdmins are just smarter? I did, however, have to educate people about bblisa-request NOT being the same as bblisa-(gang of organizers), but I don't mind doing that, because it's a different kettle of fish. AdamM From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 14:18:56 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04276; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:18:56 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04269; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:18:40 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa07520; 4 Nov 92 16:17 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03207; Wed, 4 Nov 92 16:18:26 EST Message-Id: <9211042118.AA03207@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:18:26 EST In-Reply-To: "Adam S. Moskowitz" "Re: Mailing list etiquette" (Nov 4, 3:07pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: "Adam S. Moskowitz" Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I disagree with you that attempting to educate folks is bad (or wasted > effort). I think it's even worse to perpetuate their failure to learn by > fulfilling their mis-directed request. In general, you're absolutely correct. However, if the task is arcane, and the user does it very infrequently, my experience is that no amount of education will teach them, so it's wasted effort. > Somebody, somewhere, has to do some work. Now, either you and I and all > the other mailing list managers can spend all of our times doing other > people's work for them, or they can do it themselves. The option, IMHO, is for list managers to spend all their time educating a endless number of users, or we can program machines to do the work. You may see a higher calling, but I just want to eliminate tedious, repetitive, manual labor. One subject that we've only touched tangentially in this discussion is that not all lists are the same. Not all automated lists use the same commands, and, believe it or not, there are lists (moderated) where postings and subscription requests go to the same address. This is what makes educating users impossible. I might agree with you if a user could take your teachings and use it with other lists, but the fact is that currently, he/she cannot. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 14:52:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04308; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:52:52 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04300; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:52:40 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA29887; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:52:39 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA21635; Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:51:56 PST for mmorse@z.nsf.gov Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 14:51:56 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211042251.AA21635@medraut.apple.com> To: adamm@inset.com, mmorse@z.nsf.gov Subject: Re: Mailing list etiquette Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In general, you're absolutely correct. However, if the task is >arcane, and the user does it very infrequently, my experience is that >no amount of education will teach them, so it's wasted effort. That's not my experience. I've found that a user that's walked through the proper procedure once is very unlikely to blow it in the future, while a user that signs on improperly and gets away with it is also very likely to use the same method to sign back off. Maybe I'm changing the world one user at a time, but recividism rates are very low. Doesn't solve the larger problem (how to keep them from making the first mistake at all -- how do you educate someone you don't know exists until the mistake brings them forward? And how do you get them information they don't know to ask for until too late?) but it does keep the noise down AND it means that this person won't make the mistake on some other mailing list, reducing the hassle factor for all the mailing list managers (and readers) downstream from my education. >The option, IMHO, is for list managers to spend all their time >educating a endless number of users, or we can program machines to >do the work. You may see a higher calling, but I just want to >eliminate tedious, repetitive, manual labor. It's part of the job. My belief is that if you don't want to do the entire job, then don't run mailing lists (which, by the way, is exactly what I did. When I got tired of the hassle, I quit. I'm back, in a very small way). If you can automate parts of it, great. But I think things have to be automated in a way that looks at the entire picture -- not just making the administrator's life easier, but making sure it doesn't negatively impact everyone's mailing lists. To that end, if you want a script that watches incoming mail for these noise bursts and automatically send back a "please do it the correct way" message, that's great. If you use that same script to intercept those messages and act on them when they're incorrectly addressed, you're re-inforcing the wrong message to the end user and pushing that incorrect behavior out to the rest of us, because the user has been conditioned to believe what he did was right when it's not. Maybe that's easier for you -- but is it easier for the net as a whole? I don't think so. I think we all need to reinforce the right behaviors together, because the corners you cut to make life easier (a) come back and bite you later, and (2) those corners pop up and poke me in the ribs, too, and they're sharp. >One subject that we've only touched tangentially in this discussion is >that not all lists are the same. Not all automated lists use the same >commands, and, believe it or not, there are lists (moderated) where >postings and subscription requests go to the same address. This is >what makes educating users impossible. I might agree with you if a >user could take your teachings and use it with other lists, but the >fact is that currently, he/she cannot. This is a problem. Probably the biggest hassle I have (other than people trying to get on the OtherRealms mailing list, which has been dead for about two years. Got another request today, and I'll be damned if I know what list-of-lists they're getting it from) is Listserv people thinking I (or my list) is a listserv. This one's a bit tough, since they're doing what they think is right. If it's send to my -request, no problem. I can be a machine, and it's not really wrong. If it gets distributed to the entire list, then I try to point out (nicely. Always nicely. really. Honest) that not all lists are listservs. There are a lot of questions I can't answer, though, for instance "How do you tell the difference?". I'll note, though, that even in the standardized world of listserv, the lists I'm on seem to get a fair number of listserv commands sent ot the group account instead of the server, so it's not just a problem 'over here'. I have mixed feelings about how to handle this one, since this isn't use naivete as much as a paradigm shifting out from under them,and that's not really their fault. What it really comes down to is this: What are we running mail lists for? Is it "To make it as easy as possible to manage"? Or is it "To create as informative and noise-free an environment for the user as possible?" -- is it being run for the convenience of the owner or the user? For me, it's the latter, and that means being proactive about reducing noise, both by stopping noise at the source where necessary and doing what education is necessary to make sure that noise sources learn how to play well with their neighbors. That creates, over time, a lower-volume of noise because you weed out the noise from the repeat offenders, and I'd rather just deal with new-user noise than noise from everyone. From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 15:35:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04361; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:35:04 PST Received: from Ra.MsState.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04352; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:34:57 PST Received: by Ra.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.5m-FWP); id AA20103; Wed, 4 Nov 92 17:35:17 CST Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 17:35:17 CST From: Natalie Maynor Message-Id: <9211042335.AA20103@Ra.MsState.Edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Internationalization of mailing lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think the international presence on these lists is great, and really > says something about how the world is changing at a grass-roots level. > What do the rest of you see on your lists? From: Revised List Processor (1.7d) * * English Language Discussion Group * List= WORDS-L * * Country Subscribers * ------- ----------- * Australia 2 * Belgium 1 * Canada 5 * Czechoslovakia 1 * France 1 * Great Britain 1 * Ireland 2 * Japan 2 * Malaysia 1 * Norway 1 * Singapore 2 * Sweden 1 * Taiwan 3 * USA 98 (These figures don't include the people reading WORDS-L through the usenet gateway, of course.) * * American Dialect Society * List= ADS-L * * Country Subscribers * ------- ----------- * Argentina 1 * Australia 1 * Canada 9 * Czechoslovakia 1 * Germany 2 * Great Britain 1 * Hungary 1 * Netherlands 1 * Saudi-Arabia 1 * Taiwan 1 * USA 87 * ??? (ZA) 1 SMOKE-FREE@RA.MSSTATE.EDU (new list as of today): edu 6 com 4 gov 2 ca 2 --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu) From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 15:46:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04381; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:46:20 PST Received: from goose.aa.ox.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04374; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:46:04 PST Received: by goose.aa.ox.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.22.1 #22.9) id ; Wed, 4 Nov 92 18:44 EST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 18:46 EST From: paulh@ox.com (Paul Haas) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: loops Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A proposal for automatically blocking mail loops: o Mark each message that gets sent to the list. o Bounce or drop any message so marked. Since headers tend to get mangled in a mail loop, the mark as to be in the body of the message, it could be either a header or a footer. For example, a message sent to the digest version of this list started with: "List Managers Digest Friday, 30 October 1992 Volume 01 : Number 003" You would have to check for the line anywhere in message. I've seen loops where the original mail headers are moved into the body. I'd bounce the first ten messages each day with an automatic message telling the person to put a ">" in front of the line, if they really want to have a line like that in a message. Limiting it to 10 bounces a day, is a simplistic way of preventing bounce loops. I'm sure there are better ways. -- Paul Haas work:paulh@ox.com home:paulh@hamjudo.mi.org (313) 930-1888 (313) HAM-JUDO From List-Managers-Owner Wed Nov 4 15:56:56 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04407; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:56:56 PST Received: from apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04396; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:56:48 PST Received: from [90.190.12.52] by apple.com with SMTP (5.61/7-Aug-1992-eef) id AA06961; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:57:05 -0800 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com Received: by medraut.apple.com (5.64/25-eef) id AA21821; Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:56:20 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 15:56:20 PST From: Eeyore's Evil Twin Message-Id: <9211042356.AA21821@medraut.apple.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Internationalization of mailing lists. Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think the international presence on these lists is great, and really > says something about how the world is changing at a grass-roots level. > What do the rest