From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 06:59:01 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11629; Tue, 1 Dec 92 06:59:01 PST Received: from cs-mail.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11622; Tue, 1 Dec 92 06:58:55 PST Received: from CS.BU.EDU by cs-mail.bu.edu (5.61+++/SMI-4.0.3) id AA11545; Tue, 1 Dec 92 09:58:48 -0500 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: by cs.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.0) id AA23134; Tue, 1 Dec 92 09:58:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Dec 92 09:58:47 -0500 Message-Id: <9212011458.AA23134@cs.bu.edu> To: jbw@cs.bu.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Header fields to change or add before distributing Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent> Errors-To seems to be a sendmail-ism; it's not defined in RFC822, and Brent> doesn't seem to work properly or reliably in sendmail even. I've had Brent> so many problems with it that I've stopped using it. jbw> What kind of problems, other than it not having any effect? Has it had a jbw> bad effect? I would like to know myself; I have never seen any problems and the header line definitely DOES have an effect. Tasos From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 09:57:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11989; Tue, 1 Dec 92 09:57:04 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11981; Tue, 1 Dec 92 09:57:00 PST Message-Id: <9212011757.AA11981@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: "Read Receipt" messages from NeXT users?!? Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 09:56:59 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Have you folks started seeing those obnoxious "Read Receipt" messages from NeXT users, in response to mail you send to a mailing list? If you haven't seen this yet, apparently when a NeXT user reads a message, the NeXT mail client sends a message like the following: From: Joe User To: brent@greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman) Subject: Read Receipt Your message regarding "random subject" of Mon Nov 30 16:12:00 1992 was read on Tue Dec 1 09:27:59 1992 back to the originator! Frankly, if I send a message to a mailing list with hundreds or thousands of people on it, I really don't _care_ when each individual reads it. At most, this damn thing should follow the same rules as a well-written "vacation" program, and not autoreply to messages unless the recipient (or one of a list of specified aliases) appears explicitly in the "To:" or "Cc:" line. Is this a per-user thing that I can badger offenders to turn off, or is it something enabled on a system-wide basis that I need to bother the sysadmins at these sites about? Or, heaven forbid, is there no way at all to turn this misfeature off? -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 11:19:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12382; Tue, 1 Dec 92 11:19:20 PST Received: from elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12375; Tue, 1 Dec 92 11:19:13 PST Received: by elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov (4.1/SMI-4.1+DXRm2.2) id AA12606; Tue, 1 Dec 92 11:19:33 PST Message-Id: <9212011919.AA12606@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Header fields to change or add before distributing Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 11:19:33 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You guys are beating me to the punch. I have hooked into majordomo my "list-handler" software, which does neat and funny things to these headers you are talking about. Basically list handler takes care of bounced mail (removing the offending address from the list file and placing it in a holding pattern). It also will check new addresses to see if it can mail to them, but I like the majordomo solution better. It does all this by use of the "Return-Receipt-To" and a couple of "X-" headers, which is why I'd like to enter the discussion. > # 6) Remove any "Return-Receipt-To:" field. > I wouldn't remove the field if it's there. Somebody had to make a > special effort to get it there in the first place, and if they really > want all that mail back, so be it... I would agree with this. I use it to check addresses for validity. I am aware that lots of non-compliant-to-whatever mailers don't respond to it, but I have a plan for that. I'd really like to see this become a standard, myself. > # 7) Add a field on this form: > # X-Mailing-List: [list name/description]*[sequence number] <[list address]> > That's not a bad idea. Someday I might implement it! :-) It is a great idea. I do this only to have the actual list name (like the majordomo concept) in the header of the message. Mine only looks like: X-Mailing-List: But I like the sequence number and the address...that way a bounced user who is "restored" to the list (happens automatically in list handler) could recover all the messages he or she missed. I also added a X-Mailing-To:
in the field of the header. That way, software could tell which address the message was originally destined for (after a few list exploders it gets pretty difficult to tell). ------ Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 12:14:31 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12546; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:14:31 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12539; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:14:18 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa04434; 1 Dec 92 14:38 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11275; Tue, 1 Dec 92 14:39:31 EST Message-Id: <9212011939.AA11275@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 14:39:31 EST X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Listserv vs News Cc: ledwards@nsf.gov, jcrawfor@nsf.gov Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to start some discussion of the virtues of Listserv-managed mailing lists vs Net News for managing discussion groups. There are some visionaries at my organization that feel that we will see explosive implementation of PC-based news readers in the next year or so, in the same way we've seen an explosion of Gopher clients. These people feel that News is the way to go, because all the problems of scaling, naming, resource discovery, user interface, archiving, info-glut management, etc., have been solved in the decades that News has been around. We are thinking of converting, as much as possible, to using News in the future. The idea is that once people have a News reader on their desktop, there will be very little interest in Bitnet-style listservs, and most of the issues discussed here go away entirely. Comments, anyone? --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 12:33:32 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12649; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:33:32 PST Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12642; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:33:25 PST Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <2847>; Tue, 1 Dec 1992 15:33:37 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ledwards@nsf.gov, jcrawfor@nsf.gov Subject: Re: Listserv vs News In-Reply-To: mmorse's message of Tue, 01 Dec 92 14:39:31 -0500. <9212011939.AA11275@z.nsf.gov> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1992 15:33:30 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <92Dec1.153337est.2847@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think it's pretty clear that news has much better mechanisms for dealing with large volumes of traffic and multiple lists/newsgroups. Arguably it has better ways of discovering about new and existing ones (especially new ones). There are ways of doing all of this inside mail, but none of them are common now and I suspect that news (by its nature) will always be ahead of mail here. - cks From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 12:46:02 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12682; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:46:02 PST Received: from cray.com (timbuk.cray.com) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12675; Tue, 1 Dec 92 12:45:56 PST Received: from palm30.cray.com by cray.com (4.1/CRI-MX 2.2) id AA28481; Tue, 1 Dec 92 14:45:34 CST Received: from localhost by palm30.cray.com id AA02541; 4.1/CRI-5.6; Tue, 1 Dec 92 14:45:32 CST Message-Id: <9212012045.AA02541@palm30.cray.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserve vs News Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 14:45:30 -0600 From: dmb@palm.cray.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I must respectfully disagree with your associates, though they may be right in the very far future when net access becomes near universal. The list I manage is a small one, about 60 subscribers and single digit messages per week, though the traffic is very bursty. I know that our 60 subscribers aren't the only people interested in barbershop quartet singing, but I doubt that the interest will ever reach a level that would justify a news group. News groups are great when you have subjects that lots of people at a site would be interested in, the savings of batched delivery and a central repository outweigh the extra disk space, but the mail list still has its advantages for small groups talking about subjects of limited interest. That's part of the reason that the Newsgroup creation guidelines require 100 more yes-votes than no-votes. If you can't even get 100 yes-votes, you probably should operate as a mail list. David Bowen From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 13:49:30 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12843; Tue, 1 Dec 92 13:49:30 PST Received: from pex.eecs.nwu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12836; Tue, 1 Dec 92 13:49:17 PST Received: by pex.eecs.nwu.edu (4.1/SMI-NWU-2) id AA13504; Tue, 1 Dec 92 15:49:19 CST Date: Tue, 1 Dec 92 15:49:19 CST From: phil@pex.eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) Message-Id: <9212012149.AA13504@pex.eecs.nwu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ledwards@nsf.gov, jcrawfor@nsf.gov In-Reply-To: Chris Siebenmann's message of Tue, 1 Dec 1992 15:33:30 -0500 <92Dec1.153337est.2847@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Subject: Re: Listserv vs News Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think it's pretty clear that news has much better mechanisms > for dealing with large volumes of traffic and multiple lists/newsgroups. No argument here. The largest problem I have found with news is that it is not nearly as universal as mail. Nearly everyone with any sort of network connection (even something as simple as a compu$erve account) can send and receive mail. But news is a different matter. There are still LOTS of sites who have, for one reason or another, chosen not to carry ANY news at all. People stuck on these sites are the ones that still rely heavily on mailing lists. William LeFebvre Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science Northwestern University From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 16:12:08 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13028; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:12:08 PST Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13021; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:12:00 PST Received: by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA02781; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:11:56 -0800 Message-Id: <9212020011.AA02781@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserve vs News In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Dec 92 14:45:30 CST." <9212012045.AA02541@palm30.cray.com> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 16:11:55 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For readers of the BIOSCI material, we have a 75 vote threshold for group creation. If a group falls short of this, we have now started to create mailing lists to support discussion on the subject. (A full group gets mailing list + newsgroup, and a seperate europe & middle east set of exploders [based in the UK]) | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@net.bio.net | | BIOSCI Network Administrator | | | BIOSCI/IntelliGenetics, Inc. | +1 415 962 7300 | |=========== net.bio.net -- The New Home of the bionet Newsgroups ============| | This is the allegory of an individual christened Jed. An unprosperous | | ascetical recluse who just about sustained his clan. Then it came to | | pass one morning. He was in quest of nutriments, when elevated from the | | soil arose some effervescent raw petroleum products. | | | | The fundamental issue one recognizes, venerable Jed's become excessively | | affluent. His indigenous relatives asserted, "Jed, depart from your | | current domicile". They pronounced California as the locale of | | choice, so the household loaded up their property and possessions and | | seceded to Beverly Hills. | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 16:16:38 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13048; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:16:38 PST Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13041; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:16:31 PST Message-Id: <9212020016.AA13041@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: mmorse@z.nsf.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: ledwards@nsf.gov, jcrawfor@nsf.gov From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1992 19:15:17 EST Subject: Re: Listserv vs News Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reasons to use list managers instead of or in addition to netnews: (1) Small lists (already mentioned). (2) Private lists (i.e., subscriptions are controlled for some reason). (3) Lists where it is desired to limit who can post (without having a moderator). (4) Service to users lacking access to netnews (already mentioned). It would be nice if gatewaying between the news and lists were easier, so that both formats could be easily provided. (5) Lists used to broadcast important announcements. I can imagine someone who is not really into electronic discussion, but who needs to be a member of a couple of low activity lists because of their job. Such a person might well prefer email to netnews. Not everyone is a net junkie. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 1246 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 17:44:24 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13366; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:44:24 PST Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13349; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:44:12 PST Received: from uunet.uu.net (via LOCALHOST.UU.NET) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA03561; Tue, 1 Dec 92 20:44:33 -0500 Received: from eiffel.UUCP by uunet.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 204315.17464; Tue, 1 Dec 1992 20:43:15 EST Received: from lyon.eiffel.com by eiffel.eiffel.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA03901; Tue, 1 Dec 92 16:31:07 PST Received: by lyon.eiffel.com (5.61/1.34) id AA08991; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:33:19 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserv vs News In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 01 Dec 92 19:15:17 EST." <9212020016.AA13041@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> X-Mailer: MH [version 6.7.2] Organization: Interactive Software Engineering, Santa Barbara CA Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 17:33:19 PST Message-Id: <8989.723259999@lyon.eiffel.com> From: Raphael Manfredi Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It is much more difficult to follow a conversation via a mailing list, as opposed to news. I don't know of any user agent which let you organize threads based on the 'In-Reply-To' headers the way a newsreader threads articles via the Reference line. But even if you feed a local newsgroups and manage to thread articles, you still loose the flexibility of a normal newsgroups where a single article can raise a huge tree of replies. (I've been careful enough in this reply to avoid any quotations, leaving only the 'In-Reply-To' header field. Just to strengthen my point :-) I think it would be possible for a mailing list "dispatcher" to build up a "Reference" line based on the Message-ID and the In-Reply-To fields, so that people who do feed a newsgroup still have the possibility of thread reading (and/or trashing whenever appropriate). Such a Reference header would not be of any inconvenience otherwise, since most user agent give the possibility to weed out unwanted headers. -- Raphael Manfredi Interactive Software Engineering Inc. 270 Storke Road, Suite #7 / Tel +1 (805) 685-1006 \ Goleta, California 93117, USA \ Fax +1 (805) 685-6869 / From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 17:45:14 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13393; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:45:14 PST Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13376; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:44:59 PST Received: from Gwinnett.COM by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.3.23) via UUCP id AA07054 ; Tue, 1 Dec 92 20:45:11 -0500 Received: from knex by Gwinnett.COM with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0mwisE-0007zqC; Tue, 1 Dec 92 20:27 EST Received: by knex.Gwinnett.COM (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 01 Dec 92 20:06:44 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserve vs News From: Gess Shankar Message-Id: Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 19:57:05 EST In-Reply-To: <9212012045.AA02541@palm30.cray.com> Organization: Knowledge Exchange, GA, US of A Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gwinnett.COM!emory!palm.cray.com!dmb writes: [stuff deleted for brevity] > for small groups talking about subjects of limited interest. That's part of > the reason that the Newsgroup creation guidelines require 100 more yes-votes > than no-votes. If you can't even get 100 yes-votes, you probably should > operate as a mail list. > I am a novice list operator (2 days old). The subject matter is multimedia under OS/2. Due to very light traffic on this subject in various comp.os.os2 newsgroups, I felt a mailing list might be in order. But on the first day of announcement, I got about 100 subscriptions. Subs are still trickling in. Does this mean, I should have proposed a multimedia newsgroup creation rather than launch a list? I have about 10 postings today exploding to 1000+ mail messages. Feelings are similar to Adam, who said to Eve, "Stand back, I don't know how big this thing is going to get!". ;-) Do the lists keep growing or do they reach an optimum level and tend to stay at that level with additions canceling out sign-offs? Bemused list owner. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.Gwinnett.COM |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|{rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!knex!gess|<><>| From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 17:55:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13483; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:55:33 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13474; Tue, 1 Dec 92 17:55:30 PST Message-Id: <9212020155.AA13474@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserve vs News In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 01 Dec 92 19:57:05 EST Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 17:55:28 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar writes: # I am a novice list operator (2 days old). The subject matter is multimedia # under OS/2. Due to very light traffic on this subject in various comp.os.os2 # newsgroups, I felt a mailing list might be in order. But on the first day # of announcement, I got about 100 subscriptions. Subs are still trickling # in. Does this mean, I should have proposed a multimedia newsgroup creation # rather than launch a list? # # I have about 10 postings today exploding to 1000+ mail messages. Feelings # are similar to Adam, who said to Eve, "Stand back, I don't know how big # this thing is going to get!". ;-) # # Do the lists keep growing or do they reach an optimum level and tend to # stay at that level with additions canceling out sign-offs? Relax. New lists always generate an initial spurt of subscriptions, followed by a burst of questions as everybody asks the one question they've been dying to get off their chests, then they die down into almost total silence after a couple of weeks. Those first couple of weeks can be brutal, though... Ask anyone who was on Firewalls from the very beginning. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 1 20:39:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13895; Tue, 1 Dec 92 20:39:20 PST Received: from cs-mail.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA13888; Tue, 1 Dec 92 20:39:14 PST Received: from CSD.BU.EDU by cs-mail.bu.edu (5.61+++/SMI-4.0.3) id AA23119; Tue, 1 Dec 92 23:39:34 -0500 From: jbw@cs.bu.edu (Joe Wells) Received: by csd.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.0) id AA20955; Tue, 1 Dec 92 23:39:33 -0500 Date: Tue, 1 Dec 92 23:39:33 -0500 Message-Id: <9212020439.AA20955@csd.bu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserv vs News In-Reply-To: <8989.723259999@lyon.eiffel.com> References: <8989.723259999@lyon.eiffel.com> <9212020016.AA13041@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Sent-Via: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The "VM" mail reading package for GNU Emacs maintains the "References:" header. Observe the headers of this message for an example. However, it doesn't use them for anything. Other MUAs may do similar things. Anyway, I prefer newsgroups in general. The main advantage of mailing lists is their flexibility. You don't have to get hundreds of people to agree with you to get one running. -- Joe Wells Member of the League for Programming Freedom --- send e-mail for details From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 2 02:12:10 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA14319; Wed, 2 Dec 92 02:12:10 PST Received: from violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA14312; Wed, 2 Dec 92 02:11:58 PST Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 10:08:41 GMT Message-Id: <22610.199212021008@violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: by violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk id AA22610; Wed, 2 Dec 1992 10:08:41 GMT From: Ian Dickinson In-Reply-To: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@greatcircle.com "List Managers Digest V1 #29" (Dec 2, 1:10am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserv vs News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Raphael Manfredi wrote: } Subject: Re: Listserv vs News > It is much more difficult to follow a conversation via a mailing list, as > opposed to news. I don't know of any user agent which let you organize threads > based on the 'In-Reply-To' headers the way a newsreader threads articles via > the Reference line. There are some. I'm starting to use an MUA called 'af' (in beta at the moment) which generates References: headers (which is really useful when used in conjunction with a newsreader). It can thread a mailbox based on References: headers and In-Reply-To: headers (and indeed quoted text if a Message-ID is found in the "right" context). I know that References is an RFC1036 header, but it shouldn't cause any problems that I know of. I also believe that VM (a GNU emacs MUA) will do something along these lines. Cheers, -- \/ato - Ian Dickinson - NIC handle: ID17 No-one is to molest vato@csv.warwick.ac.uk ...!mcsun!uknet!warwick!vato the wombat when /I=I/S=Dickinson/OU=CSV/O=Warwick/PRMD=UK.AC/ADMD= /C=GB/ anyone is @c=GB@o=University of Warwick@ou=Computing Services@cn=Ian Dickinson watching. From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 2 05:51:01 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA14634; Wed, 2 Dec 92 05:51:01 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA14627; Wed, 2 Dec 92 05:50:50 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa14765; 2 Dec 92 8:33 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11687; Wed, 2 Dec 92 08:35:33 EST Message-Id: <9212021335.AA11687@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 08:35:33 EST In-Reply-To: Gess Shankar "Re: Listserve vs News" (Dec 1, 7:57pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Gess Shankar , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Listserve vs News Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Do the lists keep growing or do they reach an optimum level and tend to > stay at that level with additions canceling out sign-offs? I think the number of valid addresses finally becomes stable, but the number of bogus addresses justs keeps growing indefinitely. :-) :-) :-) --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 2 12:13:41 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15987; Wed, 2 Dec 92 12:13:41 PST Received: from yonge.csri.toronto.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15980; Wed, 2 Dec 92 12:13:18 PST Received: from alias by yonge.csri.toronto.edu with UUCP id <14465>; Wed, 2 Dec 1992 11:08:05 -0500 Received: from dino.alias.com by barney.alias.com with SMTP id AA03275 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 2 Dec 92 10:15:15 -0500 Received: by dino.alias.com id AA13959 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 2 Dec 92 10:15:14 -0500 From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Message-Id: <9212021515.AA13959@dino.alias.com> Subject: Re: Listserv vs News To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 10:15:13 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8989.723259999@lyon.eiffel.com> from "Raphael Manfredi" at Dec 1, 92 08:33:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL8] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2011 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It is much more difficult to follow a conversation via a mailing list, as > opposed to news. I don't know of any user agent which let you organize threads > based on the 'In-Reply-To' headers the way a newsreader threads articles via > the Reference line. threaded newsreaders have been around for less than two years; before that we all had to follow conversations the hard way, just like we do in mail now. Threaded mail reading would be an easy modification. A simple way to do it would be to save all messages to a mailbox and then have a program sort that mailbox by In-Reply-To: header information. It would (probably) be easy to add internal sorting to Elm; it already sorts mail about 8 different ways. > But even if you feed a local newsgroups and manage to thread articles, you > still loose the flexibility of a normal newsgroups where a single article can > raise a huge tree of replies. This is a negative aspect of newsgroups, IMHO. If you (accidentally) ask a simple question, you get several hundred replies over the course of the next two weeks, because of the delays in news distribution. We're considered "close" to the news backbone, yet it takes two days for one of my outgoing postings to reach most of the people who would reply. Mailing lists have a much lower latency. Articles to this list, for example, end up back in my mailbox in a couple of hours. This reduces the amount of redundant information that travels around; if I don't read mail for a couple of hours, it's likely that I'll see both query and response in the same session, and I won't bother duplicating someone else's reply. For this to work in news, I have to wait days between sessions... -- Main's Law: For every | C. Harald Koch Alias Research, Inc. Toronto, ON action, there is an equal | chk@alias.com (work-related mail) and opposite goverment | chk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (permanent address) program. | VE3TLA@VE3OY.#SCON.ON.CA.NA (AMPRNet) From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 3 08:19:03 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18076; Thu, 3 Dec 92 08:19:03 PST Received: from att.att.com (att-out.att.com) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18069; Thu, 3 Dec 92 08:18:55 PST Message-Id: <9212031618.AA18069@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 92 08:23 EST From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Listserv vs News Content-Length: 1737 Content-Type: text Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Latency is a funny thing. I *could* have latency of less than an hour on this list; but I strongly prefer getting one digest per day, rather than each message as it's sent. Of course, that means that I'm more likely (than a per-message list reader) to send a redundant reply (i.e., one that says the same thing others have already said). When I post to Netnews, the biggest latency (for posted, rather than e-mailed, replies) is typically how long it takes for me to read news again. (I've gotten trans-Atlantic e-mail replies to Netnews articles within less than twenty-four hours.) Some of the "threaded mail reader" comments make assumptions about how we manage our e-mail messages. My "in box" is pretty much a "to do" box, and one that I clear ASAP. Believe it or not, I try to keep my in box *empty*; once a message has been read and acted upon (even if that just means scheduling an activity), it's sent to a subject-oriented file, or deleted. (The files are kept in directories by month, e.g., this message might go to $HOME/mboxdir/9212/listmgrs.) Bottom line: all the messages I get on one subject *aren't* in one file; a "threaded mail reader" would have trouble with that. There's a more fundamental issue. My e-mail is directed at *me*; some of it's junk, but I need to at least scan it all. Some of it is urgent. News is a collection of information and discussions; I can lurk, or join in, or let it run on without me. (I have use a "notify" program, so I see whenever I get new e-mail; imagine doing that with Netnews!) Paul S. R. Chisholm, AT&T Bell Laboratories/EasyLink Services, att!pegasus!psrc, psrc@pegasus.att.com, AT&T Mail !psrchisholm I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind. From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 10 15:03:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA08276; Thu, 10 Dec 92 15:03:52 PST Received: from cyklop.nada.kth.se by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA08261; Thu, 10 Dec 92 15:03:42 PST Received: from localhost.nada.kth.se by cyklop.nada.kth.se (5.61-bind 1.4+ida/nada-mx-1.0) id AA03218; Fri, 11 Dec 92 00:03:10 +0100 Message-Id: <9212102303.AA03218@cyklop.nada.kth.se> To: "Roger Fajman" Cc: mmorse@z.nsf.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, ledwards@nsf.gov, jcrawfor@nsf.gov Subject: Re: Listserv vs News In-Reply-To: <9212020016.AA13041@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from ""Roger Fajman" " "Tue, 01 Dec 1992 19:15:17 EST " Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 00:03:09 +0100 From: Peter Svanberg Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Quoting: "Roger Fajman" > > Reasons to use list managers instead of or in addition to netnews: > : > : > (2) Private lists (i.e., subscriptions are controlled for some reason). > > (3) Lists where it is desired to limit who can post (without having a > moderator). Yes, this can only be solved with mail or special conferencing systems. > (5) Lists used to broadcast important announcements. > > I can imagine someone who is not really into electronic discussion, but > who needs to be a member of a couple of low activity lists because of > their job. Such a person might well prefer email to netnews. Not > everyone is a net junkie. Yes, I totally agree to this. But that's because the mail and news worlds are so separated. When I started using Unix (middle 80-ies) I very soon wondered at why you had to use totally different programs to read and send mail and news respectively. We have just the above problem: Lots of students which read mail but not news. It's rather silly to send out hundreds of copies of the same message just because there is not a common interface to mail and news. Yes, there _are_ differences between news and mail - those must be evident for the user - but a good program should be able to handle them together. There is hope, though: People at the University of Washington have also just these thoughts and are implementing them (Pine, IMAP2bis etc.). --- Peter Svanberg, NADA, KTH Email: psv@nada.kth.se Dept of Num An & CS, Royal Inst of Tech Phone: +46 8 790 71 46 S-100 44 Stockholm, SWEDEN Fax: +46 8 790 09 30 From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 11 10:58:59 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA10480; Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:58:59 PST Received: from mail.think.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA10473; Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:58:53 PST Received: from Think.COM by mail.think.com; Fri, 11 Dec 92 13:58:44 -0500 Received: from sackr.UUCP by Early-Bird.Think.COM; Fri, 11 Dec 92 13:58:39 EST Received: by sackr.cambridge.ma.us (UUPC/extended 1.11v); Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:39:54 EST Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:39:49 EST From: "Hom Sack" Message-Id: <2b28e07d.sackr@sackr.cambridge.ma.us> Organization: Sack Research To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: help Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk help -- hom@sackr.cambridge.ma.us Hom Sack hom@sackr.uucp 50 Gold Star Road Voice & Fax: 617-868-4412 Cambridge, MA 02140-1119 From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 11 17:47:13 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA12516; Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:47:13 PST Received: from cs.columbia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA00779; Tue, 8 Dec 92 10:49:53 PST Received: from tiemann.cs.columbia.edu by cs.columbia.edu (5.65c/0.6/jba+ad) with SMTP id AA01024; Tue, 8 Dec 1992 13:50:00 -0500 Received: by tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+) id AA04565; Tue, 8 Dec 92 13:49:58 EST Date: Tue, 8 Dec 92 13:49:58 EST From: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (Alexander Dupuy) Message-Id: <9212081849.AA04565@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: another mail based server which may be of interest Reply-To: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From TELEDOC@TIES.NONE.NONE.CD.SG.itu.arcom.ch Mon Dec 7 22:24:03 1992 X400-Received: by mta chx400.switch.ch in /PRMD=switch/ADMD=arcom/C=CH/; Relayed; Tue, 8 Dec 1992 04:22:22 +0100 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ITU/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/; converted (ia5 text (2)); Relayed; Mon, 7 Dec 1992 22:58:59 +0100 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 22:58:59 +0100 X400-Originator: TELEDOC@TIES.NONE.NONE.CD.SG.itu.arcom.ch X400-Recipients: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ITU/ADMD=ARCOM/C=CH/;6508582307121992/A05737/TAU] X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) Content-Identifier: 116C3DFA0300 From: TELEDOC SERVER To: "(Alexander Dupuy)" (Non Receipt Notification Requested) Subject: TAM re:help Content-Length: 11689 X-Lines: 395 ------------------------------ Start of body part 1 **** WELCOME TO THE TELEDOC AUTO-ANSWERING MAILBOX (TAM) **** TELEDOC is an electronic document distribution service of the International Telecommunication Union in Geneva, Switzerland. For help on TELEDOC Auto-Answering Mailbox (TAM) commands, send a message with the line HELP in the message body. NEWS FLASH: The "List of ITU Publications" with prices and ordering information for ITU paper publications is available in the root group of the ITU Document Store (UPI 3025). To retrieve this document, send the command GET 3025 to the TAM. REPLY TO COMMAND => help TAM replied on December 7, 1992 at 11:56 PM local time in Geneva. TAM Help is attached in the next message body part. ********************* END COVER MESSAGE ********************* ------------------------------ Start of body part 2 TELEDOC AUTO-ANSWERING MAILBOX (TAM) HELP LAST REVISION: October 8, 1992 ** INTRODUCTION ** TELEDOC is an electronic document distribution service of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU). The ITU is a United Nations agency based in Geneva, Switzerland. It consists organizationally of five permanent organs: the General Secretariat, the International Frequency Registration Board (IFRB), the International Radio Consultative Committee (CCIR), the International Telegraph and Telephone Consultative Committee (CCITT) and the Telecommunications Development Bureau (BDT). ITU documents are stored in a database called the ITU Document Store. The ITU Document Store organizes ITU documents into hierarchical groups. Each group can contain additional groups and/or documents. Remote access to the ITU Document Store is planned via: - electronic mail (auto-answering mailbox) - interactive VT interface (planned for early 93) - Internet FTP (planned for early 93) This document describes the electronic mail access, the Teledoc Auto-Answering Mailbox (TAM). ** TELEDOC AUTO-ANSWERING MAILBOX (TAM) ** The Teledoc Auto-Answering Mailbox (TAM) is an X.400 "robot" electronic mailbox at ITU headquarters. The electronic mail address of the TAM is: (X.400) S=teledoc; P=itu; A=arcom; C=ch or (Internet) teledoc@itu.arcom.ch Electronic mail sent to the TAM should only contain simple commands described below. When the TAM receives a message, it scans it for these commands which it interprets and processes. It then constructs and mails back a reply. For example, you can ask the TAM to send help (HELP), a list of groups and/or documents in the ITU Document Store (LIST) or an actual document (GET). Here is a sample message to the TAM: ----------------------------------------- To: S=teledoc;P=itu;A=arcom;C=ch (X.400) or teledoc@itu.arcom.ch (Internet) FROM: (NAME) SUBJECT: (IGNORED) ----------------------------------------- HELP LIST LIST CCITT LIST CCITT/REC LIST CCIR LIST IFRB LIST BDT LIST TIES GET 1449 ----------------------------------------- The above message to the TAM asks to: 1. Send a help file; 2. Send a list of groups and/or documents at the root level of the ITU Document Store; 3. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the CCITT Group (CCITT); 4. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the CCITT Recommendations group (CCITT/REC); 5. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the CCIR Group (CCIR); 6. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the IFRB Group (IFRB); 7. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the BDT Group (BDT); 8. Send a list of groups and/or documents in the Telecom Information Exchange Services Group (TIES); 9. Send the document that has the Unique Permanent Identifier (UPI) of 1449. ** GETTING STARTED ** 1. Find out how the electronic mail system you use in your organization or company can access the TAM via either the X.400 or Internet mail address listed above. Alternatively, you can access the TAM via various major email service providers (see below). 2. Send a test message (TEST or HELP) to the TAM. If you receive a reply then you have established that your message has reached the TAM and that it can also reach you. 3. Decide which group of documents in the ITU Document Store you are interested in. Send a mail message requesting a list (LIST) of groups and/or documents in that group. 4. After you receive a list of available documents and groups, send a mail message to list (LIST) other sub-groups or get (GET) the document you want. The TAM will send to you the list or document requested. ** TELEDOC AUTO-ANSWERING MAILBOX COMMANDS ** TAM commands consist of a command word followed, in some cases, by an argument. Commands and arguments can be specified in upper, lower or mixed case. Every line of your mail message to the TAM should contain a valid command. Only commands contained in the mail message are interpreted. All other lines and the mail subject field are ignored (you can use the subject field to document your request for your own needs). Up to 50 lines per message will be processed by the TAM. Each valid command currently generates a separate mail reply. START This optional command tells the TAM to begin processing commands after this line. If this command is present, any text in the mail message before this command is ignored. TEST This command is used to test that the TAM can receive mail from your electronic mail system and can also respond back to your mail system. The TAM will acknowledge your message and send a help file. Typically, if you have not received a reply within 48 hours, there is a connectivity problem between your electronic mail system and the TAM. HELP This command sends the latest help file listing and explaining the commands understood by the TAM. LIST This command returns a list of groups and/or documents in the specified group. The path to a group is defined by its location relative from the top of the ITU Document Store. For example: LIST LIST CCITT LIST CCITT/REC LIST CCITT/REC/F LIST CCIR LIST IFRB LIST BDT LIST TIES The first example of the LIST command above returns a list of groups and/or documents at the root level of the ITU Document Store. GET When the TAM sends a list of documents and/or groups, it provides a Unique Permanent Identifier (UPI) code for every document in each available format. The UPI is the code used to retrieve the document that you want. For example: GET 1449 GET 1453 You should only retrieve documents in formats that can be handled by your electronic mail system (see ENCODE below). ENCODE Most mail systems can handle ASCII documents attached to mail messages but may have difficulties with non-ASCII (i.e., "binary") formats such as word processing and graphics files. With the ENCODE command, you can request the TAM to encode non-ASCII files into the UUENCODE format which is ASCII. To decode the UUENCODED file back into its original binary format, you need a utility program called UUDECODE. This program is widely available in different computing environments. Enter this command in your mail message before any GET commands retrieving binary formats if your mail system can only support ASCII formats. For example: ENCODE GET 2314 GET 2315 Internet (SMTP) mail does not typically support binary attachments to mail messages. Therefore, if the TAM is replying to Internet mail, the ENCODE command is automatically applied. HUMAN Since the TAM is a "robot", it may not understand exactly what you are trying to say to it. If you type the command HUMAN followed by any message, the TAM will STOP processing commands and automatically forward your incoming mail message to a human operator at the ITU. For example: HUMAN I am having a problem locating a document concerning XXXX. Could you please tell me where it is available? Thank you, Bill END This optional command tells the TAM to ignore the rest of the mail message. This command is only required if your mail message contains text after your commands you want the TAM to ignore (e.g., your signature). ** IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS ** There are problems sometimes with international mail connections just as there are problems sometimes with long distance telephone calls. The electronic mail circuits between the TAM and your mail system can fail or be temporarily unavailable. In this case, email can be delayed or not delivered. So, the first advice if you have a problem is to try again. The TAM will only reply to valid commands. If the argument to a LIST command or GET command cannot be interpreted then you should receive an error message explaining why. If the TAM cannot process any commands in your mail message, it will return a message saying so and send back the help file. If you have no problems retrieving ASCII documents but difficulties with non-ASCII formats, your mail system or the mail gateways to your system may not support binary messages. In this case, try using the ENCODE command. If you have problems that you can't resolve, you can use the HUMAN command and then enter your written description of the problem in the mail message. The TAM forwards messages containing the HUMAN command to an ITU help desk. If you wish to make a suggestion on how the service can be improved, please contact: Mr. Robert Shaw TELEDOC Project Coordinator Information Services Department International Telecommunication Union Place des Nations 1211 Geneva 20, Switzerland TEL: +41 22 730 5338/5554 FAX: +41 22 730 5337 X.400: G=robert; S=shaw; A=arcom; P=itu; C=ch Internet: shaw@itu.arcom.ch ** ACCESS TO TAM FROM EMAIL SERVICE PROVIDERS ** If you do not have direct access to either X.400 or Internet mail, many major email service providers (e.g., MCI, Compuserve) provide gateway facilities and can access the TAM. ACCESS FROM MCI MCI users can access the TAM through MCI's facilities for access to other mail systems (EMS). TAM can be accessed through either MCI's X.400 or Internet gateways. X.400 responses appear faster and more reliable. ACCESS FROM MCI MAIL VIA X.400: 1. At COMMAND, type CREATE 2. At TO, type TELEDOC followed by EMS in parentheses. For example, TO: TELEDOC (EMS) 3. At the prompt EMS: type ARCOM. For example, EMS: ARCOM 4. At MBX: type PR=ITU. For example, MBX: PR=ITU 5. At the next MBX: type return to end addressing 6. Complete as usual ACCESS FROM MCI MAIL VIA INTERNET: 1. At COMMAND, type CREATE 2. At TO, type TELEDOC followed by EMS in parentheses. For example, TO: TELEDOC (EMS) 3. At the prompt EMS: type INTERNET. For example, EMS: INTERNET 4. At MBX: type TELEDOC@ITU.ARCOM.CH. For example, MBX: TELEDOC@ITU.ARCOM.CH 5. At the next MBX: type return to end addressing 6. Complete as usual ACCESS FROM COMPUSERVE Compuserve mail users can access the TAM through Compuserve's Internet mail gateway facility. ACCESS FROM COMPUSERVE MAIL VIA INTERNET: 1. Choose COMPOSE a new message, edit the message with TAM commands, then choose SEND 2. At SEND TO (NAME OR USER ID), type INTERNET:TELEDOC@ITU.ARCOM.CH For example, Send to (Name or User ID): INTERNET:TELEDOC@ITU.ARCOM.CH 3. At SUBJECT, type any text (TAM ignores subject fields) 4. Complete as usual ** END HELP FILE ** ------------------------------ End of body part 2 ----- End Included Message ----- From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 14 16:32:13 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18413; Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:32:13 PST Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18406; Mon, 14 Dec 92 16:32:05 PST Received: from Gwinnett.COM by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.0) via UUCP id AA05669 ; Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:32:00 -0500 Received: from knex by Gwinnett.COM with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0n1PyK-0007zfC; Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:17 EST Received: by knex.Gwinnett.COM (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:13:04 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: How to deal with bounces From: Gess Shankar Message-Id: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:03:44 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there some sort of standard way of treating various bounced messages? I have been getting bounced mail with every mailing with a variety of reasons. e.g. host not known cannot send messages for three days xxx host is down cannot parse address... Etc. The vexing thing is that addresses are good one time, but not the next. I weed out addresses that consistantly fail. The question is: Should I attempt to resend the bounced messages after some time, days or wait for repeated bounces from the same address before stepping in and unsubscribing the offending address? Are such things normal for lists? GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.Gwinnett.COM |<><>| Mmos2-L Admin. |<><>|{rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!knex!gess|<><>| From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 14 20:10:04 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23384; Mon, 14 Dec 92 20:10:04 PST Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23375; Mon, 14 Dec 92 20:09:56 PST Received: from skeeve.mcs.anl.gov by antares.mcs.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-GAR) id AA26381; Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:09:51 CST Received: by skeeve.mcs.anl.gov (4.1/GeneV4) id AA18382; Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:09:49 CST Message-Id: <9212150409.AA18382@skeeve.mcs.anl.gov> To: Gess Shankar Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Dec 92 19:03:44 EST." Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:09:48 CST From: Gene Rackow Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The thing that I have been doing is to take and move the offending addresses to a "list-bounce" mailing list. Then daily (weekly, traffic dependent) a message gets sent to the list-bounce address stating how to get off of the bounce list and onto the real list if desired. Then, after some amount of time, I will drop them from the bounce list completely and not worry about it. majordomo or listserv are very nice for this function. Clean, clear, and little user complaint. It gives the users on the remote end a chance to corrent their mail problems and also be notified that their goof ups are causing the rest of us alot of grief. Something that I've been thinking about adding into majordomo is a way to have a list of addreses to check before adding them to the list. If the address is in the bozo list, the request will be denied with some message (possibly) until the list maintainer has been notified that the bozo address has been corrected in a way suitable to both parties. There are some addresses that keep popping up bad and the user keeps sending in subscribe me messages just to stay on the list, even though his address, or something, is flakey at best. --Gene From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 05:38:17 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24217; Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:38:17 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24211; Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:37:26 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa26148; 15 Dec 92 8:25 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24119; Tue, 15 Dec 92 08:26:35 EST Message-Id: <9212151326.AA24119@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:26:35 EST In-Reply-To: Gess Shankar "How to deal with bounces" (Dec 14, 7:03pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Gess Shankar Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Is there some sort of standard way of treating various bounced messages? > > I have been getting bounced mail with every mailing with a variety of > reasons. e.g. Not only that, bounces aren't all sent to the same address! I think it's time for an RFC on how to bounce mail. I have a little Perl script that sends most of the bounces to /dev/null but some still sneak past it. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 05:39:40 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24232; Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:39:40 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AB24211; Tue, 15 Dec 92 05:38:25 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa26305; 15 Dec 92 8:34 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24138; Tue, 15 Dec 92 08:36:27 EST Message-Id: <9212151336.AA24138@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:36:27 EST In-Reply-To: Gene Rackow "Re: How to deal with bounces" (Dec 14, 10:09pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Gene Rackow , Gess Shankar Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Something that I've been thinking about adding into majordomo is a > way to have a list of addreses to check before adding them to the > list. If the address is in the bozo list, the request will be > denied with some message (possibly) until the list maintainer has > been notified that the bozo address has been corrected in a way suitable > to both parties. There are some addresses that keep popping up bad > and the user keeps sending in subscribe me messages just to stay on the > list, even though his address, or something, is flakey at best. Does majordomo check addresses at all before putting them on the list? I'm pretty sure that Listserv for Unix does not. I have a little Perl script (I'm starting to sound like a broken record) that uses nslookup to at least check that the host name is in the DNS. That has almost totally cut out bounces on a non-listserv system I run. If anyone's interested, I've included it here. It's not perfect, but it does most of the job. --Mike #!/usr/local/bin/perl # a script to check a mail address # returns 0 if OK (far as we know) # returns 1 if not. $debug = 0; $tmp = "/tmp/chkaddr$$"; if ($#ARGV != 0){ print("usage: check_addr address\n"); &leave(1); } $test = $ARGV[0]; # actually, the first two tests, for 1) embedded spaces and # 2) no @ sign will never fail, because download prevents # spaces, and adds "@nsf.gov" to addresses without an @. # does it have spaces? $num_spaces = $test =~ tr/ / /; if ($num_spaces){ &leave(1); } # does it have an @? $num_ats = $test =~ tr/\@/\@/; if ($num_ats != 1){ &leave(1); } # does it have a rhs and lhs? ($lhs,$rhs) = split(/@/,$test); if (! $lhs || ! $rhs) { # must have both a rhs and lhs &leave(1); } # does the rhs have dots? $num_dots = $rhs =~ tr/././; if (! $num_dots) { &leave(1); } # if it has just one dot, does it end with "BITNET"? if ($num_dots == 1) { if ($rhs =~ /\.bitnet$/i) { &leave(0); } } # OK, everything looks pretty good, let's try nslookup open(LOOK,"|/usr/etc/nslookup > $tmp 2>$tmp") || &leave(1); print LOOK<){ # look at non-MX query if (/^> >/){ last; } if (/^Name/) { $try = ; if ($try =~ /^> >/){ last; # shouldn't happen } if ($try =~ /^Address:\s+\d+\./) { # looks good &leave(0); } } } while(){ # look at MX query chop; if (/mail exchanger =/){ &leave(0); } } &leave(1); sub leave { if($debug){ print("Exit $_[0].\n"); } if( -e $tmp) { unlink($tmp); } exit ($_[0]); } From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 07:49:53 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24341; Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:49:53 PST Received: from csvax.cs.caltech.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24334; Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:48:53 PST Received: from mickey.UUCP by csvax.cs.caltech.edu (4.1/1.34.1) id AA11869; Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:48:42 PST Received: from dalsdb.mickey by mickey.uucp (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA19580; Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:47:34 PST Received: from bimbette.wdp_animation by dalsdb.mickey (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07596; Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:47:29 PST Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 07:47:29 PST From: mickey!sullivan@csvax.cs.caltech.edu (Michael Sullivan) Message-Id: <9212151547.AA07596@dalsdb.mickey> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are some bounces that you're going to get because of things like down machines or networks. These I just let go and assume will get retried at a later date--besides, it's just too much of a hassle to resend for each and every bounce. If someone really does miss an issue they can always request a back issue from my back issues address. For things like "user unknown" or "host unknown" (actually, after a few "host unknown" messages) I pass the offending address to a little script I have called "bouncer". This takes the address and sends a little "what's happened to this person"-type of message to the postmaster at the offending site (so it takes joe@bozo.com and sends to postmaster@bozo.com). This way I can find out for sure if the user has left the site or if something is wrong with their system. I try to be sure before shutting someone off. Michael Sullivan sullivan@mickey.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation uunet!elroy!cit-vax!mickey!sullivan Glendale, CA +1 818 544 2683 -- +1 818 544 4579 (fax) From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 08:31:51 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24436; Tue, 15 Dec 92 08:31:51 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24425; Tue, 15 Dec 92 08:30:48 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa28027; 15 Dec 92 11:12 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24245; Tue, 15 Dec 92 11:13:44 EST Message-Id: <9212151613.AA24245@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:13:44 EST In-Reply-To: Michael Sullivan "Re: How to deal with bounces" (Dec 15, 7:47am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Michael Sullivan , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > For things like "user unknown" > or "host unknown" (actually, after a few "host unknown" messages) I pass the > offending address to a little script I have called "bouncer". This takes > the address and sends a little "what's happened to this person"-type of message > to the postmaster at the offending site (so it takes joe@bozo.com and sends > to postmaster@bozo.com). This way I can find out for sure if the user has > left the site or if something is wrong with their system. I try to be sure > before shutting someone off. You are the nicest list manager in the world! How many total subscribers do you have on all your lists? How many bounces do you handle this way each week? --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 10:28:17 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24921; Tue, 15 Dec 92 10:28:17 PST Received: from mailbox.syr.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24914; Tue, 15 Dec 92 10:28:03 PST Received: from spider.syr.EDU by mailbox.syr.edu (4.1/CNS) id AA03284; Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:29:45 EST Received: by spider.syr.EDU (4.1/Spike-2.0) id AA22549; Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:21:55 EST Message-Id: <9212151821.AA22549@spider.syr.EDU> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: jmwobus@mailbox.syr.edu Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 92 11:13:44 EST." <9212151613.AA24245@z.nsf.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 13:21:54 -0500 From: "John M. Wobus" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9212151613.AA24245@z.nsf.gov> you write: > >> For things like "user unknown" >> or "host unknown" (actually, after a few "host unknown" messages) I pass the >> offending address to a little script I have called "bouncer". This takes >> the address and sends a little "what's happened to this person"-type of mess >age >> to the postmaster at the offending site (so it takes joe@bozo.com and sends >> to postmaster@bozo.com). This way I can find out for sure if the user has >> left the site or if something is wrong with their system. I try to be sure >> before shutting someone off. > >You are the nicest list manager in the world! How many total >subscribers do you have on all your lists? How many bounces do you >handle this way each week? I couldn't imagine sending that many queries. A FAQ on how to handle different kinds of bounce messages would be great. Great for list managers and "normal people" too. Here is my procedure for handling mailing-list bounce messages: (1) Each time I get a bounce message, I record the offending address. Sometimes the address doesn't match anything in my list. In that case, I just record what I can. Sometimes the only thing that makes sense is the address of the daemon that sent the message. That is a lot better than nothing: it is usually sufficient to match against subsequent bounce messages to see if I am getting repeated instances. (2) I see how many bounce messages I have gotten from the address, i.e., how long the address seems to have been bouncing. If it is 'unknown user', I remove the address after the 2nd bounce message. Otherwise, I remove the address after a month. (3) Exception number 1: If it is 'unknown host', I see if the host is in an old hosttable and I can get the IP number. If so, I look up the new host name and modify the address. If there are only a few major hosts in the domain, I might fish for the name using finger too. (4) Exception number 2: It may be that I cannot find the corresponding address in my mailing list. If so, I look for likely redistribution lists, and send a message to the redistribution list's owner (if I have a record of him/her) or to the host's postmaster. (5) Exception number 3: If there is no corresponding mailing list, I may have to do some real guessing. If I think I have identified the node, then once again, I send a message to the node's postmaster. Anyone who has dealt with large lists know that it is possible to go through this entire procedure and still not eliminate a bounce message. Not likely, but certainly possible. So far I have been lucky. One further measure would be to write a procedure that mails a unique message to each and every different address in the mailing list, e.g., a message which contains the destination address in the body. Then if you are lucky, the bounce message will tell the story. You also might be able to try such things one at a time if you have some candidate addresses. Part of the reason the above procedure works for me is that my list is digested and the digests are mailed like clockwork, twice a week. Thus if I get two bounce messages in a row for unknown user, I know that the condition has persisted for days. Likewise, it is easy to see from records of bounced addresses if a message has bounced every time over the last month. A 'normal' mailing list that isn't digested can't be handed so easily. One thing which I would love to see would be an archive of host name-changes. I imagine ftping a file of recent hostname changes once a week, and when I get an "unknown host" bounce message, I look up the old hostname in the file and get the new hostname. What a wonderful service that would be if some philanthropic site saw fit to offer it. Postmasters would have a way of heading off a lot of e-mail problems. One could imagine the concept extended to handle full e-mail addresses too, e.g. jjdoe@bullwinkle.edu --> johnd@rocky.com *@bugs.navy.mil --> *@porky.navy.mil Naturally, such an archive could be rolled over after some reasonable amount of time. And after just a short time, people would be inventing little client-server tools to get the data in slick ways, or when bounce messages are standardized, making such updates happen automatically. John Wobus Syracuse University Not volunteering, alas... From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 12:22:01 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25352; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:22:01 PST Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25345; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:21:53 PST Received: by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA19273; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:22:16 -0800 Message-Id: <9212152022.AA19273@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:09:48 CST." <9212150409.AA18382@skeeve.mcs.anl.gov> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:22:15 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For the biosci lists, we automatically send out an information sheet and a subscription confirmation to each new subscriber. If it is going to bounce, it bounces quickly, and if its me, I'll try to figure out what the users real address is. Otherwise, the 'bouncers' list is the place for them. Problem countries are .tw (Republic of China) and .kr (Republic of Korea), since their local machines usually give the wrong origination addresses and also break about once a week. Another problem is .in (India), where their backbone site(s) doesn't connect often enough, and we get a whole country full of bounces at a time. | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@net.bio.net | | BIOSCI Network Administrator | | | BIOSCI/IntelliGenetics, Inc. | +1 415 962 7300 | |=========== net.bio.net -- The New Home of the bionet Newsgroups ============| | Ride a motorcycle. Save Gas, Oil, Rubber, Steel, Aluminum, Parking Spaces, | | The Environment, and Money. Plus, you get to wear all the leather you want!| From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 12:52:40 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25523; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:52:40 PST Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA25516; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:52:15 PST Received: by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA21175; Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:52:35 -0800 Message-Id: <9212152052.AA21175@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: postmaster@kodak.com Subject: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail X-Disclaimer: Unless otherwise noted below, this is not a policy statement Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:52:34 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this request from a user today. Note carefully the headers and the postscript to their note. Received: from kodak.com by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA05296; Tue, 15 Dec 92 08:27:44 -0800 Received: from DSRGVJ.DECnet MAIL11D_V3 by Kodak.COM (5.61+/2.1-Eastman Kodak) id AA03928; Tue, 15 Dec 92 11:29:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 11:29:17 -0500 Reply-To: nobody@Kodak.COM Message-Id: <9212151629.AA03928@Kodak.COM> From: nobody@Kodak.COM To: "biosci@genbank.bio.net"@Kodak.COM Subject: "Bionet" USENET Newsgroups >From: NAME: Frank J. Dutko FUNC: Virology & Oncopharm. TEL: (518)445-8982 To: "biosci@genbank.bio.net"@KODAKR@MRGATE@WPC CC: NAME: Frank J. Dutko I am interested in participating in the "bionet" USENET newsgroups. Can you please tell me how to start? Thanks, Frank Dutko, Ph.D. dutko@KODAK.COM P.S. When you reply to this message, please do NOT use your auto- reply function. For some reason, I do not receive messages made this way, but I do receive them if they are made from scratch. Thnx. ---------- Did someone at Kodak think this was clever? | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@net.bio.net | | BIOSCI Network Administrator | | | BIOSCI/IntelliGenetics, Inc. | +1 415 962 7300 | |=========== net.bio.net -- The New Home of the bionet Newsgroups ============| | All Governments, including the worst on earth and the most tyrannical on | | earth, are free Governments to that portion of the people who voluntarily | | support them. | | -- Lysander Spooner | From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 14:22:57 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26060; Tue, 15 Dec 92 14:22:57 PST Received: from mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26053; Tue, 15 Dec 92 14:22:51 PST Received: by mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA12772; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:22:45 -0500 Received: by bahainvs (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1) id AA14012; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:10:26 EST Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:10:26 EST From: bahainvs!johnw@cs.UMD.EDU (John Wiegley) Message-Id: <9212152210.AA14012@bahainvs> Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: "List Managers" Subject: Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > P.S. When you reply to this message, please do NOT use your auto- > reply function. For some reason, I do not receive messages made > this way, but I do receive them if they are made from scratch. Thnx. The user may also not be aware of what is happening to his outbound mail. I think it would be wise to check with him before parading him before a whole mailing list as an idiot. It happens that I am running a UUCP WAN through a University node that chews to pieces my outbound header, so that I often find out days later that something I've put in my header doesn't appear ANYTHING like it to the MATRIX. Just thought we'd give the poor guy the benefit of the doubt. Catch you later, John From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 15:52:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26188; Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:52:20 PST Received: from mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26181; Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:52:09 PST Received: by mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA12755; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:22:32 -0500 Received: by bahainvs (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1) id AA14000; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:01:07 EST Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:01:07 EST From: bahainvs!johnw@cs.UMD.EDU (John Wiegley) Message-Id: <9212152201.AA14000@bahainvs> Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: "List Managers" Subject: A "bozo" list... Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Something that I've been thinking about adding into majordomo is a > > way to have a list of addreses to check before adding them to the > > list. If the address is in the bozo list, the request will be > > denied with some message (possibly) until the list maintainer has > > been notified that the bozo address has been corrected in a way suitable > > to both parties. There are some addresses that keep popping up bad > > and the user keeps sending in subscribe me messages just to stay on the > > list, even though his address, or something, is flakey at best. For such a bozo list to really work is going to take a bit of programming.. I've written the code in 'C' to do address validation, but I don't think it will work for Majordomo. The reason is this: Consider the following series of operations (this was sent by a friend, who was helping me to debug the security validator in my database server): /usr/jtidwell> telnet cs.umd.edu 25 Trying 128.8.128.8 ... Connected to cs.umd.edu. Escape character is '^]'. 220 mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU Sendmail 5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88 ready at Wed, 11 Nov 92 11:40:14 -0500 mail from: someone@somewhere.com 250 someone@somewhere.com... Sender ok rcpt to: bahainvs!johnw 250 bahainvs!johnw... Recipient ok data This effectively got a piece of mail into my database server from "someone@somewhere.com." It could also be set to any name you wish. Now, the "bozo" list couldn't possible handle every possible option that I could type it, and so, with Majordomo's facility of letting you change the receipt address (necessary for those whose outbound address differs from their inbound address), it make the efficacy of such a security measure on Majordomo equal about nil. NOTE: the above hack will also change the "From:" address, and the "From ", however, it will not alter the "Received:" address. This became useful, because I could scan the Received fields to make absolutely sure that the mail sent from "someone@somewhere.com" was actually received by the domain "somewhere.com". If not, then it must be a bogus address. Hope this helps you to design your implementation! Good Luck, John P.S. Here is a C program called "verify.c". It usage is as follows: created an address list called "addtable" (address table). Then execute "verify" from the same directory with the format: verify [address] It will show you the progress of its address analysis, and then tell you whether "[address]" is in addtable or not. NOTE: this version of "verify.c" does NOT implement "Received:" or "From " field checking. This is a rather simple one that only check the "From:" field. The more advanced one is being coding into a larger project, and so wasn't easily divorceable from the rest of the code. (also, in reading the output: step 1 is domain name processing, step 2 is user name processing, and step 3 is sub-domain name processing. It will take apart any kind of address, and will ignore sub-sub-domains and the like..) ---[ verify.c ]--- #include #include #include struct address_template address_deconstruct(char *address); int verifyname(char *name); char *strtoupper(char *string); struct address_template { char user[33]; char subsubdomain[101]; char subdomain[33]; char domain[33]; }; main(int argc, char *argv[]) { if (verifyname(argv[1])) printf("Name (%s) is VALID\n", argv[1]); else printf("Name (%s) is NOT valid\n", argv[1]); } int verifyname(char *name) { FILE *file_ptr; char buffer[501]; struct address_template query, check; query = address_deconstruct(name); printf("Address (%s) deconstructed to...\n", name); printf(" user: %s\n", query.user); printf(" subdomain: %s\n", query.subdomain); printf(" domain: %s\n", query.domain); file_ptr = fopen("addtable", "r"); do { memset(buffer, 0, sizeof(buffer)); if (!fgets(buffer, 500, file_ptr)) break; printf("address read is (%s)\n", buffer); buffer[strlen(buffer) - 1] = (char) NULL; printf("modified address read is (%s)\n", buffer); check = address_deconstruct(buffer); if (!strcasecmp(strtoupper(query.user), strtoupper(check.user))) if (!strcasecmp(strtoupper(query.subdomain), strtoupper(check.subdomain))) if (!strcasecmp(strtoupper(query.domain), strtoupper(query.domain))) return (1); } while (!feof(file_ptr)); fclose(file_ptr); return(0); } struct address_template address_deconstruct(char *address) { int i, step = 0, j, uucp = 0; struct address_template temp; temp.domain[0] = (char) NULL; /* First things first, find the proper domain name IF '@' exists */ for (i = strlen(address); i >= 0; i--) if (address[i] == '@') strcpy(temp.domain, &address[i + 1]); /* DEBUG */ if (temp.domain[0]) printf("a_d: domain obtained, step 1: (%s)\n", temp.domain); /* If there are NO '@' signs, then it must be UUCP, and we know that user is last */ if (!temp.domain[0]) { printf("a_d: parsing in UUCP mode, '@' not found..\n"); for (i = 0; i < strlen(address); i++) if (address[i] == '!') { strncpy(temp.domain, address, i); printf("a_d: first '!' found, for domain, step 1: (%s)\n", temp.domain); break; } for (i = strlen(address); i >= 0; i--) if (address[i] == '!') { strcpy(temp.user, &address[i + 1]); printf("a_d: last '!' found, for user, step 2: (%s)\n", temp.user); break; } for (; i >= 0; i--) if (address[i] == '!') { strncpy(temp.subdomain, &address[i + 1], strlen(address) - strlen(temp.user) - i); printf("a_d: second to last '!' found, for subdomain, step 3: (%s)\n", temp.subdomain); if (!strcasecmp(temp.subdomain, temp.domain)) memset(temp.subdomain, 0, sizeof(temp.subdomain)); else printf("a_d: subdomain and domain are disparate! ergo, subdomain is valid.\n"); break; } } /* if there WAS an '@', then come in from the left. '%' or '@' again means INET. */ else { printf("a_d: parsing in INET mode, '@' found..\n"); i = j = 0; while (1) { /* since we know there's an '@', infinite loop till we come to it */ j = i; for (; i < strlen(address); i++) if (address[i] == '%' || address[i] == '@') { strncpy(temp.user, &address[j], i++ - j); printf("a_d: first '%%' or '@' was found, user obtained, step 2: (%s)\n", temp.user); if (uucp) { printf("a_d: we're in UUCP/INET, step 3. subdomain = last subsubdomain: (%s)\n", temp.subsubdomain); strcpy(temp.subdomain, temp.subsubdomain); /* last name before '!' was machine name */ goto outtahere; } else { j = i; for (; i < strlen(address); i++) if (address[i] == '@') { strncpy(temp.subdomain, &address[j], i - j); printf("a_d: name between the two '@' or '@ && %%' is subdomain, step 3: (%s)\n", temp.subdomain); break; } goto outtahere; } break; } else if (address[i] == '!') { printf("a_d: hey! we found a '!', moving into INET/UUCP mode..\n"); uucp = 1; /* note that we processed a bit of UUCP info */ strncpy(temp.subsubdomain, &address[j], i++ - j); /* note: this could be the subdomain..! */ printf("a_d: temp-shoving into subsubdomain: (%s)\n", temp.subsubdomain); break; } } outtahere: return(temp); /* a good whole structure pass never hurt any midnight coder! */ } } char *strtoupper(char *string) { char temp[81]; int i; strcpy(temp, string); for (i = 0; i < strlen(temp); i++) temp[i] = toupper(temp[i]); strcpy(string, temp); return(string); } From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 15 17:24:06 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26490; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:24:06 PST Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA26483; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:23:58 PST Received: by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA28494; Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:24:20 -0800 Message-Id: <9212160124.AA28494@net.bio.net> To: "List Managers" Subject: Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:10:26 EST." <9212152210.AA14012@bahainvs> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:24:20 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Uh, perhaps you miss the point -- its not that the sender doesn't know whats happening (he clearly doesn't, but he can tell something is wrong), its that some moron at Kodak put together that pathetic excuse for a mail gateway. They probably think it enhances system security. | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@net.bio.net | | BIOSCI Network Administrator | | | BIOSCI/IntelliGenetics, Inc. | +1 415 962 7300 | |=========== net.bio.net -- The New Home of the bionet Newsgroups ============| | AND THE MINKS ON MY WIFE'S COAT ALL COMMITTED SUICIDE | | The Eddie Bauer catalog offers pitch-saturated kindling wood "felled | | by lightning or other natural causes." | | | | from an article on Political Correctness in US News & World Report | From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 00:20:49 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27112; Wed, 16 Dec 92 00:20:49 PST Received: from mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27105; Wed, 16 Dec 92 00:20:42 PST Received: by mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA16016; Wed, 16 Dec 92 03:19:27 -0500 Received: by bahainvs (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1) id AA15267; Wed, 16 Dec 92 02:51:38 EST Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 02:51:38 EST From: bahainvs!johnw@cs.UMD.EDU (John Wiegley) Message-Id: <9212160751.AA15267@bahainvs> Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: "List Managers" Subject: Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Uh, perhaps you miss the point... Yes, I guess I did miss the point. Well, better luck next time.. On a more important issue: Would anyone happen to know how to write a Berkeley daemon? I'm writing a pre-Mail server that gets run from an alias. It does various things: automated database service, list management, and the like. However, it is not a small program (about 200K), and there's going to be about 10 different services being by it. Also, there could be potentially hundreds of different requests processed at a single time. Since it's running off of a Unix machine, that'll start about a hundred 200K processes. This is obviously unacceptable, and would max out my machine's 16 Megs in a second. So the only solution I see is to code the server as a Berkeley daemon, and then write a queueing program. (btw, the OS is BSD4.3). I've written code before using the IPC library.. is this what I want? I looked through signal.h, but that doesn't seem to be the way to go. The queueing program needs to send over an integer, and a buffer of 10 strings (max), in the format: int argc, char *argv[] (just like the entry info given to main() ). Can anyone point me down the right road? Man pages, book titles, all of these would be helpful. Thanks, John From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 06:21:02 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27549; Wed, 16 Dec 92 06:21:02 PST Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27542; Wed, 16 Dec 92 06:20:55 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa10678; 16 Dec 92 9:12 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24829; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:13:46 EST Message-Id: <9212161413.AA24829@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:13:46 EST In-Reply-To: "Kenton A. Hoover" "Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail" (Dec 15, 5:24pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: "Kenton A. Hoover" Subject: Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Uh, perhaps you miss the point -- its not that the sender doesn't > know whats happening (he clearly doesn't, but he can tell something > is wrong), its that some moron at Kodak put together that pathetic > excuse for a mail gateway. They probably think it enhances system > security. I think you win the award, but it's still not polite to flame total strangers in public without knowing the complete situation (i.e. talking to them first). --Mike From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 07:47:38 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27647; Wed, 16 Dec 92 07:47:38 PST Received: from CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27640; Wed, 16 Dec 92 07:47:27 PST Received: from rex.Graphics.Cornell.edu by CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 16 Dec 92 10:45:25 EST Received: by rex.Graphics.Cornell.edu (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA20526; Wed, 16 Dec 92 10:44:11 -0500 Message-Id: <9212161544.AA20526@rex.Graphics.Cornell.edu> To: "Kenton A. Hoover" Cc: "List Managers" , mkc@Graphics.Cornell.edu Subject: Re: Nominations for Most Stupid Way of Gatewaying Mail In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:24:20 -0800. <9212160124.AA28494@net.bio.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 10:44:10 EST From: mkc@Graphics.Cornell.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Uh, perhaps you miss the point -- its not that the sender doesn't >know whats happening (he clearly doesn't, but he can tell something >is wrong), its that some moron at Kodak put together that pathetic >excuse for a mail gateway. They probably think it enhances system >security. Careful here. Most of what I saw in the headers of that message was boilerplate straight from Digital. The user is using All-in-1 mail on a VAX/VMS system. The VAX is gatewaying All-in-1 mail to DECnet mail and sending the DECnet mail to an Ultrix system. The Ultrix system is gatewaying DECnet mail to internet-style mail. The only thing unusual I see in any of it is the From: and Reply-to: lines containing nobody@Kodak.com. Whoever assembled the gateways at Kodak did it by the book except for that. Not that I like the way Digital implemented it. When I ran a DECnet- Internet mail gateway here, I hacked it up to make it transparent to the rest of the Internet. I just think if you want to flame someone for a lousy gateway you might as well know where to point your flame-thrower. -Mitch Collinsworth mitch@graphics.cornell.edu From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 09:15:09 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27884; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:15:09 PST Received: from csvax.cs.caltech.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27875; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:15:01 PST Received: from mickey.UUCP by csvax.cs.caltech.edu (4.1/1.34.1) id AA16159; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:14:57 PST Received: from dalsdb.mickey by mickey.uucp (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA09634; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:02:29 PST Received: from bimbette.wdp_animation by dalsdb.mickey (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA11889; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:02:18 PST Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:02:18 PST From: mickey!sullivan@csvax.cs.caltech.edu (Michael Sullivan) Message-Id: <9212161702.AA11889@dalsdb.mickey> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >> For things like "user unknown" > >> or "host unknown" (actually, after a few "host unknown" messages) I pass the > >> offending address to a little script I have called "bouncer". This takes > >> the address and sends a little "what's happened to this person"-type of mess > >age > >> to the postmaster at the offending site (so it takes joe@bozo.com and sends > >> to postmaster@bozo.com). This way I can find out for sure if the user has > >> left the site or if something is wrong with their system. I try to be sure > >> before shutting someone off. > > > >You are the nicest list manager in the world! How many total > >subscribers do you have on all your lists? How many bounces do you > >handle this way each week? > > I couldn't imagine sending that many queries. Oh, heck. I average just over 1 bouncer query a week for a digested list of over 400 addresses--not a tremendous amount of work in my book. If you're going to manage a list, manage it. Michael Sullivan sullivan@mickey.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation uunet!elroy!cit-vax!mickey!sullivan Glendale, CA +1 818 544 2683 -- +1 818 544 4579 (fax) ` From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 09:21:47 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27902; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:21:47 PST Received: from mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA27895; Wed, 16 Dec 92 09:21:40 PST Received: by mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA29087; Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:17:57 -0500 Received: by bahainvs (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1) id AA15720; Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:05:15 EST Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:05:15 EST From: bahainvs!johnw@cs.UMD.EDU (John Wiegley) Message-Id: <9212161705.AA15720@bahainvs> Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: mickey!sullivan@csvax.cs.caltech.edu (Michael Sullivan) Subject: Re: Writing a daemon Cc: "List Managers" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I just did a quick perusal of some man pages and there is a queueing facility > in sendmail. The man pages weren't too helpful but I think more info on > queueing can be found in the docs someplace. Like the one dealing with > sendmail.cf, for instance. Yes, there is a "-bd" option which sets up sendmail as a Berkeley daemen using the IPC protocol (that's the library I think I'm going to have to use). Usually rc calls it with " sendmail -bd -q1h && (echo -n " sendmail") ". The problem is, I need *my* server to have such a "-bd" option as well. I can get it to run concurrently, and even to take requests, but I don't know how to send it a buffer. I've done the code before, but the source and the docs are somewhere other than home, and it's been a while. So in short, I need docs on the IPC (Inter Process Control [I think that's what it stands for]) library. Well, have to finish a German paper... wenn ich nur mehr Zeit haette, wuerde ich laenger schreiben (und auch wenn ich etwas mehr zu sagen haette!). Leider gibt's noch ein mehr Tage in der Universitaet, wonach ich dann mit meinem Computer arbeiten koennen. Spaeter! Thanks for the reply, John From List-Managers-Owner Wed Dec 16 12:45:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28811; Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:45:33 PST Received: from uu4.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA28801; Wed, 16 Dec 92 12:45:21 PST Received: from svcdudes.comby uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA14518; Wed, 16 Dec 92 15:22:51 -0500 Received: from moose. by svcdudes.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA12967; Wed, 16 Dec 92 11:39:51 PST Received: by moose. (NX5.67c/NX3.0S) id AA03975; Wed, 16 Dec 92 11:30:20 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 11:30:20 -0800 From: Michael Rutman Message-Id: <9212161930.AA03975@moose.> Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: How do you handle brain dead intermediate sites Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While trying to maintain the mac wargames mailing list, I found out that if the mailing list grew above a certain size (about 50 people), PSI choked on the note and didn't delete it after sending it. Therefore, I got my one message, and everyone else got their 100 or so until I called PSI and had them kill the job. Anyone have any ideas on how to get around this problem? Right now I'm using Majordomo. --- Michael Rutman | moose@svcdudes.com Cubist | makes me a NeXT programmer Software Ventures | maker of MicroPhone Pro #include | really offensive political statement From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 17 12:40:13 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01767; Thu, 17 Dec 92 12:40:13 PST Received: from cs.columbia.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01692; Thu, 17 Dec 92 12:22:02 PST Received: from tiemann.cs.columbia.edu by cs.columbia.edu (5.65c/0.6/jba+ad) with SMTP id AA29170; Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:22:21 -0500 Received: by tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+) id AA06031; Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:22:19 EST Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:22:19 EST From: dupuy@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu (Alexander Dupuy) Message-Id: <9212172022.AA06031@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: "Michael H. Morse"'s message of Tue, 15 Dec 1992 08:36:27 EST <9212151336.AA24138@z.nsf.gov> Subject: How to deal with bounces Reply-To: dupuy@cs.columbia.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Michael Morse writes: > I have a little Perl script (I'm starting to sound like a broken record) that > uses nslookup to at least check that the host name is in the DNS. That has > almost totally cut out bounces on a non-listserv system I run. If anyone's > interested, I've included it here. It's not perfect, but it does most of > the job. I also have a C program, expn(1), which is useful for verifying Internet addresses - it checks that there is at least one SMTP server which will accept mail for the address, though of course it cannot guarantee that the mail will ultimately be deliverable. I'm not sure if I have already posted this program to list-managers - forgive me if I have, but since there are probably some new subscribers, at least it won't be completely redundant. @alex /*- * $Id: expn.c,v 1.9 1992/05/31 03:43:02 dupuy Exp $ * * To compile with DNS support, cc -O -o expn expn.c -lresolv * To compile without DNS support, cc -O -o expn -DNODOMAINS expn.c * To use, expn user@host * exit codes: 0 = valid address * 1 = system error (address may be valid) * 2 = SMTP server error (address may be valid) * 3 = invalid user * 4 = invalid host * * This started out as mverify, by Jeff Beadles * with a couple of lines of autobounce.c by Pete Shipley * * I decided to enhance it for use in verifying mailing lists, requiring better * support for all the varieties of RFC-821 mailers out there in the swamps. * So I added support for MX records and real handling of RFC-821 result codes. * * If you think there's anything left to add, please send it to me, and I'll * see about adding it. * * Alexander Dupuy * */ #ifdef BSD #include #else #include #include #define index strchr #define bcopy(b1,b2,len) memcpy(b2,b1,len) #endif #include #include #include #include #ifndef NODOMAINS #include #include #endif #include #define MAXMXHOSTS 20 #define SYSERR 1 #define SMTPERR 2 #define BADUSER 3 #define BADHOST 4 char *fgets (); char *index (); struct hostent *gethostbyname (); main (argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { int smtpfd; FILE *fin; /* separate stdio streams to allow */ FILE *fout; /* mixed reads and writes w/o seeks */ char buffer[2048]; /* stdio line buffer */ char *user; /* pieces of argv */ char *orighost; char *host; char *command; /* for expn/vrfy smtp commands */ int exitstatus; struct hostent *hp; /* inet networking */ struct servent *sp; struct sockaddr_in server; char *bp; /* utility infielder */ #ifndef NODOMAINS int n; /* utility index */ HEADER *dhp; /* DNS reply header and fields*/ int ancount; int qdcount; union /* DNS reply and pointers */ { HEADER hdr; u_char bytes[PACKETSZ]; } answer; u_char *cp; u_char *eom; char hostbuf[PACKETSZ]; /* hostnames buffer */ int buflen; u_short pref; u_short type; char *hosts[MAXMXHOSTS]; /* arrays for multiple MX hosts */ u_short prefs[MAXMXHOSTS]; u_long bestpref; int besthost; /* indexes into arrays */ int i; #endif if (argc != 2) { (void) fprintf (stderr, "Usage: %s user@host\n", argv[0]); return (SYSERR); } user = argv[1]; if ((orighost = index (user, '@')) == 0) host = "localhost"; else { *orighost = '\0'; orighost++; host = orighost; } server.sin_family = AF_INET; /* * Get the smtp port using tcp. */ sp = getservbyname ("smtp", "tcp"); server.sin_port = sp->s_port; if (!server.sin_port) { (void) fprintf (stderr, "unknown service: smtp/tcp\n"); return (SYSERR); } #ifdef NODOMAINS /* * Now get the information for the @host part of the address. */ if ((hp = gethostbyname (host)) == 0) { (void) fprintf (stderr, "%s: unknown host\n", host); return (BADHOST); } #else besthost = -1; /* don't retry MX */ /* * Check MX records for the @host part of the address. */ n = res_search (host, C_IN, T_MX, answer.bytes, sizeof (answer)); if (n < 0) goto punt; /* find first satisfactory answer */ dhp = &answer.hdr; cp = answer.bytes + sizeof (HEADER); eom = answer.bytes + n; for (qdcount = ntohs (dhp->qdcount); qdcount--; cp += n + QFIXEDSZ) if ((n = dn_skipname (cp, eom)) < 0) goto punt; /* copy MX hosts and preferences into arrays */ buflen = sizeof (hostbuf); bp = hostbuf; ancount = ntohs (dhp->ancount); i = 0; while (--ancount >= 0 && cp < eom && i < MAXMXHOSTS) { if ((n = dn_expand (&answer.hdr, eom, cp, bp, buflen)) < 0) break; cp += n; GETSHORT (type, cp); cp += sizeof (u_short) + sizeof (u_long); GETSHORT (n, cp); if (type != T_MX) { cp += n; continue; } GETSHORT (pref, cp); if ((n = dn_expand (&answer.hdr, eom, cp, bp, buflen)) < 0) break; cp += n; prefs[i] = pref; hosts[i] = bp; i++; n = strlen (bp) + 1; bp += n; buflen -= n; } hosts[i] = 0; /* terminate host array */ nextmxhost: i = 0; n = 0; bestpref = 65536; while (hosts[i] && i < MAXMXHOSTS) { if (prefs[i] < 65535) /* count untried MX hosts */ n++; if (prefs[i] < bestpref) { bestpref = prefs[i]; host = hosts[i]; besthost = i; } i++; } if (n <= 1) /* don't retry if this is last host */ besthost = -1; punt: /* * Now get the information for the @host part of the address. */ if ((hp = gethostbyname (host)) == 0) { herror (host); if (besthost >= 0) { prefs[besthost] = 65535; goto nextmxhost; } if (h_errno == TRY_AGAIN) return (SYSERR); return (BADHOST); } #endif reconnect: (void) bcopy (hp->h_addr, (char *) &server.sin_addr, hp->h_length); /* * One socket please... */ if ((smtpfd = socket (AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM, 0)) < 0) { perror ("socket"); return (SYSERR); } /* * Connecting to the socket might make things go a little easier... :-) */ while (connect (smtpfd, (struct sockaddr *) &server, sizeof (server)) < 0) { #ifdef h_addr if (*++hp->h_addr_list) { (void) close (smtpfd); goto reconnect; } #endif perror (host); if (besthost >= 0) { prefs[besthost] = 65535; (void) close (smtpfd); goto nextmxhost; } return (SYSERR); } /* * Change them to streams 'cause I like 'em better. */ fout = fdopen (smtpfd, "w"); fin = fdopen (smtpfd, "r"); /* * The format of SMTP reply codes is a three digit number followed by * either space or '-' minus. The minus code indicates a multi-line * response, so we keep reading lines until we see one with a space. * * Reply codes beginning with 2 are positive, and can be ignored * (although 251 indicates a non-local user). * Reply codes beginning with 4 indicate transient errors. * Reply codes beginning with 5 indicate permanent errors * (although 551 will return a forward-path for a non-local user). * * Note that RFC-1123 defines a new reply code 252 which indicates that * the user cannot be verified, but the server will attempt forwarding. * This is pretty much the same as 251 except there is less assurance that * the address is valid. */ /* * Wait for the smtp mailer to answer. It should greet us with a 220 code */ while (fgets (buffer, sizeof (buffer) - 1, fin) != NULL) { if (buffer[3] == '-') continue; if (!strncmp (buffer, "220 ", 4)) break; else /* some kind of mailer error */ { (void) fputs (buffer, stderr); (void) putc ('\n', stderr); /* fputs doesn't add a newline */ exitstatus = SMTPERR; goto done; } } exitstatus = 0; /* let's be optimistic :-) */ if (orighost) command = "EXPN %s@%s\r\n"; /* RFC-821 requires CRLF */ else command = "EXPN %s\r\n"; /* * Now that we have the mailer's attention, tell it to 'verify' the user. * We have four ways of trying this, using EXPN or VRFY, and using @host * or not. We will try all of them (only two if no @host specified). */ (void) fprintf (fout, command, user, orighost); (void) fflush (fout); /* * Now just go into a loop reading responses from the mailer. */ while (fgets (buffer, sizeof (buffer) - 1, fin) != NULL) { /* * Zap ^M from the lines. */ if ((bp = index (buffer, '\r')) != 0) *bp = '\0'; if (!strncmp (buffer, "250", 3)) { (void) puts (buffer + 4); /* delete 250- code */ } else if (!strncmp (buffer, "251", 3)) /* only given to VRFY */ { (void) puts (buffer); /* unusual - leave 251 code in */ } else if (!strncmp (buffer, "252", 3)) /* only given to VRFY */ { /* reconstruct the user name we sent */ if (orighost) (void) printf ("<%s@%s>\n", user, orighost); else (void) puts (user); (void) fputs (buffer, stderr); (void) putc ('\n', stderr); /* print warning to stderr */ } else if (!strncmp (buffer, "551", 3)) /* only given to VRFY */ { (void) puts (buffer); /* unusual - leave 551 code in */ (void) fputs (buffer, stderr); (void) putc ('\n', stderr); /* print warning to stderr */ } else if (buffer[0] == '5' && (buffer[1] == '0' || buffer[2] == '0')) { /* 50x syntax err; 550 list vs. user */ /* * We try first with EXPN, then VRFY, since EXPN gives more info. * A server which accepts EXPN but not VRFY can give misleading * results for bad addresses. The only server I have run across * (@lists.psi.com) accepts VRFY but not EXPN, so this is okay. * If some server does accept EXPN but not VRFY, then change this * to retry only for 50x codes. RFC-821 says that a VRFY on a list * or an EXPN on a user is allowed to return 550, but I've never * seen that happen. */ switch (exitstatus) { case 0: /* first failure; try without @host */ if (orighost) /* if we haven't already done so */ { command = "EXPN %s\r\n"; exitstatus = 1; break; } /* fall through if !orighost */ case 1: /* EXPN doesn't work; try VRFY */ if (orighost) { command = "VRFY %s@%s\r\n"; exitstatus = 2; break; } /* fall through if !orighost */ case 2: command = "VRFY %s\r\n"; exitstatus = 3; break; case 3: if (buffer[1] == '5') /* 55x implies bad username */ exitstatus = BADUSER; else exitstatus = SMTPERR; (void) fputs (buffer, stderr); (void) putc ('\n', stderr); goto done; /* we've had enough by now */ } (void) fprintf (fout, command, user, orighost); (void) fflush (fout); continue; } else { (void) fputs (buffer, stderr); /* failed bigtime */ (void) putc ('\n', stderr); /* fputs doesn't add a newline */ } if (buffer[3] == ' ') /* no more responses coming */ { if (buffer[0] == '2') exitstatus = 0; /* the last try worked */ else if (buffer[0] == '5' && buffer[1] == '5') exitstatus = BADUSER; /* 55x implies bad username */ else exitstatus = SMTPERR; /* SMTP error */ break; } } done: /* * Close the SMTP connection gracefully. */ (void) fputs ("QUIT\r\n", fout); (void) fflush (fout); (void) fclose (fout); (void) fclose (fin); if (fflush (stdout)) /* in case we couldn't write output */ exitstatus = 1; /* * And leave this nice program. */ return (exitstatus); } From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 17 13:10:08 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01908; Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:10:08 PST Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01901; Thu, 17 Dec 92 13:10:03 PST Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <2701>; Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:10:19 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces In-Reply-To: dupuy's message of Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:22:19 -0500. <9212172022.AA06031@tiemann.cs.columbia.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:10:07 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <92Dec17.161019est.2701@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Note that some SMTP servers accept neither EXPN nor VRFY (the default Zmailer configuration, for example). - cks From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 18 13:29:45 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04049; Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:29:45 PST Received: from rain.psg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA04038; Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:29:36 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:29 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: Form of ANN-LOTS header To: rem@public.btr.com (Robert E. Maas rem@btr.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:29:38 PST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9212182106.AA01292@public.btr.com>; from "Robert E. Maas rem@btr.com" at Dec 18, 92 1:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi RObert, Sorry, you were caught by Dave and I knowing each other for some decades, and some rather dry senses of humor. > From ANN-LOTS@VM1.NoDak.EDU Fri Dec 18 12:45:33 1992 > Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:35:53 PST > From: Randy Bush > Subject: Re: I'm out of town > To: Multiple recipients of list ANN-LOTS Yes, that's about what I see here. And it has no 'normal' clues that it is a mailinng list in any place other then the To: comments field. Maybe, to handle BITNET lists, I should be checking the To: for "Multiple recipients of list." I will hack a specific test for ANN-LOTS headers into the vacation code here, but this seems less than an ideal solution. Perhaps folk on the list-managers list have some advice, so I will Cc: it. Thanks for your help. randy From List-Managers-Owner Sat Dec 19 14:11:15 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05509; Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:11:15 PST Received: from pi-chan.ucsb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05502; Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:11:08 PST Received: by pi-chan.ucsb.edu id AA12906 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:10:28 -0800 From: Jim Lick Message-Id: <199212192210.AA12906@pi-chan.ucsb.edu> Subject: Vandalism problems To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:10:27 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL11] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1073 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List Managers, On Thursday of this week I received a message which concerned me a good deal. The message was a bounce from a BITNET listserv that was sent to one of my mailing lists. It seems that someone sent a forged message attempting to subscribe one of my mailing lists to another mailing list. Fortunately the vandal had as much smarts as scruples. He sent the subscribe request to the remote list address instead of the listserv address, so it failed. The listserv was smart enough to reject the message since it contained listserv commands but ws not sent to the listserv. Anyways, I would like to solicit discussion on this type of thing. In particular if you have noticed anything like this happening on one of your lists lately, I urge you to report it. Any other suggestions, etc. etc. would be appreciated. --- jim@pi-chan.ucsb.edu --- Jim Lick --- jim@tcp.com --- jIngOrO@CaveMUCK --- --:):-- perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most -- |\| | |/| --:(:-- --- CaveMUCK is back! --- Telnet to cave.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) port 2283 --- From List-Managers-Owner Sat Dec 19 14:45:33 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05606; Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:45:33 PST Received: from cs-mail.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05599; Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:45:27 PST Received: from CS.BU.EDU by cs-mail.bu.edu (5.61+++/SMI-4.0.3) id AA10426; Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 -0500 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: by cs.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.0) id AA06772; Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 -0500 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 -0500 Message-Id: <9212192245.AA06772@cs.bu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, jim@pi-chan.ucsb.edu Subject: Re: Vandalism problems Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > discussion on this type of thing. In particular if you have noticed > anything like this happening on one of your lists lately, I urge you > to report it. Any other suggestions, etc. etc. would be appreciated. Same thing happened to me two years ago when someone subscribed my list to a BITNET Listserv list and vice versa, set mail to ACK and he created a very nice loop thank you very much. Every message originating from the other list was distributed in mine, then the same message was forwarded back to the other list, etc. Fortunately mail was "disrupted" somehow and the whole matter lasted about 2 days. Tasos From List-Managers-Owner Sat Dec 19 15:13:45 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05662; Sat, 19 Dec 92 15:13:45 PST Received: from livbird.liv.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA05655; Sat, 19 Dec 92 15:13:38 PST Received: from localhost.liv.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk with Local-SMTP (PP) id <19876-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:11:58 +0000 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Vandalism problems In-Reply-To: The Message of "Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 EST." Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 23:11:55 GMT Message-Id: <19874.724806715@livbird.liv.ac.uk> From: Alan Thew Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 -0500 Anastasios Kotsikonas wrote: >> discussion on this type of thing. In particular if you have noticed >> anything like this happening on one of your lists lately, I urge you >> to report it. Any other suggestions, etc. etc. would be appreciated. > >Same thing happened to me two years ago when someone subscribed my list >to a BITNET Listserv list and vice versa, set mail to ACK and he created >a very nice loop thank you very much. Every message originating from the >other list was distributed in mine, then the same message was forwarded >back to the other list, etc. > This was done to me and the person in whose name it was apparently done has denied it. I had no bounce/loop problems but did have complaints about my list being 'relayed' to the other list. Alan Thew alan.thew@livbird.liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!livbird!alan.thew +44 51 794 3735 From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 21 13:00:08 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA09430; Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:00:08 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA09422; Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:00:04 PST Message-Id: <9212212100.AA09422@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to deal with bounces In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:10:07 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:00:03 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk # Note that some SMTP servers accept neither EXPN nor VRFY (the default # Zmailer configuration, for example). # # - cks Further, even some that do accept EXPN and VRFY don't always tell you what you want to know. Actually, they correctly answer they questions they are asked, but in my experience people often ask the wrong questions. The example I'm thinking of is a common firewall configuration, where you have some gateway machine (call it "gateway.company.com") that's the MX forwarder for "company.com". Mail addressed to "user@company.com" isn't actually delivered on that machine, though, it's handed on in through the firewall to some internal server (call it "server.company.com"). The common problem I see is that folks wanting to check "user@company.com" TELNET to the gateway machine, then do "vrfy user". The gateway machine quite rightly returns "no such user", since there _isn't_ any such user ON THE GATEWAY MACHINE. If they had instead done "vrfy user@company.com", they would have gotten back "address OK" (which still doesn't tell them whether or not the user actually exists; it just tells them that the gateway knows how to handle mail addressed to "*@company.com"). -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 21 16:14:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA09725; Mon, 21 Dec 92 16:14:52 PST Received: from SERVER.uwindsor.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA09718; Mon, 21 Dec 92 16:14:44 PST Received: by SERVER.uwindsor.ca (920110.SGI/911001.SGI) for List-Managers@Greatcircle.com id AA26931; Mon, 21 Dec 92 19:17:22 -0500 Message-Id: <9212220017.AA26931@SERVER.uwindsor.ca> Subject: Re: Vandalism problems To: (List managers) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 19:17:08 EST In-Reply-To: <19874.724806715@livbird.liv.ac.uk>; from "Alan Thew" at Dec 19, 92 11:11 pm From: Scott Ophof X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >On Sat, 19 Dec 92 17:45:15 -0500 Anastasios Kotsikonas wrote: >>> discussion on this type of thing. In particular if you have noticed >>> anything like this happening on one of your lists lately, I urge you >>> to report it. Any other suggestions, etc. etc. would be appreciated. >> >>Same thing happened to me two years ago when someone subscribed my list >>to a BITNET Listserv list and vice versa, set mail to ACK and he created >>a very nice loop thank you very much. Every message originating from the >>other list was distributed in mine, then the same message was forwarded >>back to the other list, etc. >> >This was done to me and the person in whose name it was apparently done >has denied it. I had no bounce/loop problems but did have complaints about >my list being 'relayed' to the other list. If Alan is referring to the list that I think he is, then I would like to vote for having the 'relaying' stopped. Duplicate items make it harder to reply to the correct one, since both list-names look a bit alike, and the respective "Sender:" lines are not as visible as the other header lines around it (which are nearly identical to each other). And posts to list "A" just aren't relevant enough to list "B" to merit summary 'relaying'. As a disclaimer I should add that I'm not a list-manager, but am interested in the kind of problems list-managers have with respect to ethical matters. Regards, and may these holidays be peaceful and enjoyable. $$/ From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 22 12:46:47 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11501; Tue, 22 Dec 92 12:46:47 PST Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11494; Tue, 22 Dec 92 12:46:40 PST Received: from Gwinnett.COM by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.2) via UUCP id AA21407 ; Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:21:46 -0500 Received: from knex by Gwinnett.COM with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #2) id m0n4Ee6-0003MwC; Tue, 22 Dec 92 13:47 EST Received: by knex.Gwinnett.COM (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 22 Dec 92 13:39:36 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Mailing Liser Server sources From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 13:34:51 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there any public domain/GNU source code available to implement a mailing list? I am looking for some code for learning exercises and possibility of porting to and/or developing for the OS/2 environment. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.Gwinnett.COM |<><>| Mmos2-L Admin. |<><>|{rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!knex!gess|<><>| From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 22 14:23:35 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11756; Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:23:35 PST Received: from mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA11744; Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:23:28 PST Received: by mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU (5.61/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id AA24544; Tue, 22 Dec 92 17:22:45 -0500 Received: by bahainvs (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.1) id AA23906; Tue, 22 Dec 92 16:55:21 EST Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 16:55:21 EST From: bahainvs!johnw@cs.UMD.EDU (John Wiegley) Message-Id: <9212222155.AA23906@bahainvs> Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.63) To: "List Managers" Subject: A headers problem---solved! Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's doubtful that anyone else is having this problem, but here's the solution to a bug that was plaguing me for a long time. This is a copy of a piece of mail sent to another list forum... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Sysops, I was having the worst time getting the "Errors-To:" field to keep from being de-aliased to my personal account name. Like in the following piece of WABCUG mail: Errors-To: johnw Errors-To: wabcug-request Sender: wabcug-request Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 17:53:25 EST From: johnw (John Wiegley) To: "Wash Area Baha'i CUG" Subject: meeting agenda proposal Note the top line. This is a pain because "Postmaster" is defined as my account, but I didn't want my personal account name to be at the top of every piece of list mail. Well the fix is in sendmail.cf. In the following set of lines: ### Format of headers H?P?Return-Path: <$g> HReceived: $?sfrom $s $.by $j ($v/$V) id $i; $b H?D?Resent-Date: $a H?D?Date: $a H?F?Resent-From: $q H?F?From: $q H?x?Full-Name: $x HSubject: H?M?Resent-Message-Id: <$t.$i@$j> H?M?Message-Id: <$t.$i@$j> HErrors-To: Just comment out the last line to read: #HErrors-To: I'm sure that the e-mail people here probably knew this, but it took until now for me to figure it out. That ends one problem. Now for the next one.. From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 10:07:10 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15844; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:07:10 PST Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15836; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:07:05 PST Message-Id: <9212241807.AA15836@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: For your amusement Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:07:04 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For your amusement... -Brent ------- Forwarded Message Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:34:36 -0500 From: Patrick Tufts Subject: clueless users mailing list I subscribed to the Clueless Users Mailing List a while back. The first postings have just come through. --Pat - ------ Clueless messages follow ------ Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:35:33 GMT From: clueless@mantis.co.uk Sender: Clueless Users Network Test System Subject: Welcome, clueless user! Welcome to the Clueless Users Network Test System, an intelligence test for the ignorant and impolite. You have been automatically added to this mailing list because you sent a subscription request like "UNSUB ME" out to the entire readership of a mailing list, instead of sending it to the list server or list maintainer. There is nobody of worth reading this mailing list. The only way you can become unsubscribed is to figure out the standard way of unsubscribing from an Internet mailing list. Until that time, you will get these messages regularly. If you made an innocent mistake in sending your "UNSUB ME" out to the entire list, then you will know how to unsubscribe from this list immediately and no harm will be done. If, on the other hand, you simply have no clue how to deal with mailing lists, you'd better start reading up on the subject before you go blundering around again. Your attention is cordially drawn to the newsgroups news.announce.newusers, news.newusers.questions, and news.answers. Hint: the mailing list address is clueless@mantis.co.uk. Final hint: most mail servers understand the "help" command. Have fun. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:03:10 GMT From: jordan@imsi.com Subject: hey Hey how did I get on this list? I tried control/alt/delete but I'm still on the list. Jane stop this crazy thing! /jordan =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:02:52 GMT From: james@koko.csustan.edu Subject: Re: Welcome, clueless user! Who the hell are you?? I never sent anything to your address. I think you received mail from the wrong person. If you want to be a nuisance, think twice or better yet, in your case, once. - ---- Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:01:09 GMT From: vasu@charon.physik.uni-osnabrueck.de Sender: Clueless Users Network Test System Subject: help Reply-To: Clueless Users Network Test System X-Mailserver: V-MailServer 1.22 what the *f..k* is this ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 12:01:39 GMT From: anay@mcnc.org Subject: Re: Welcome, clueless user! You know assholes like you think that you can play games with someone's personal email, but you picked the wrong person, because I am the last person who will give in to shit like you, I can simply stop reading mail at this account rather than do one little thing that you tell me to do. So keep sending junk here for /dev/null to read. Btw, I am a system admin- strator, I know more about mail servers than you ever want to find out, but then two can play this game. ------- End of Forwarded Message From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 10:27:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15963; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:27:20 PST Received: from CU.NIH.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA15956; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:27:14 PST Message-Id: <9212241827.AA15956@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 13:24:52 EST Subject: Re: For your amusement Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not amused. This is not the way to encourage novices to learn to use the network. It's a good way to scare people away. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 1246 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Postmaster for CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, NIH3PLUS From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 10:43:29 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16018; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:43:29 PST Received: from presto.ig.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16011; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:43:23 PST Received: by presto.ig.com (5.61/1.15) id AA28753; Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:43:47 -0800 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 10:43:45 PST From: "John M. Relph" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: For your amusement Message-Id: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Quite funny. I do get tired of seeing all those "UNSUB ME" messages, especially since I subscribe to a multiplicity of mailing lists. -- John John Relph Moderator Chalkhills Mailing List From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 12:19:32 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16118; Thu, 24 Dec 92 12:19:32 PST Received: from yonge.csri.toronto.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16111; Thu, 24 Dec 92 12:19:22 PST Received: from alias by yonge.csri.toronto.edu with UUCP id <14472>; Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:19:10 -0500 Received: from dino.alias.com by barney.alias.com with SMTP id AA04505 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for RAF@CU.NIH.GOV); Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:08:37 -0500 Received: by dino.alias.com id AA04518 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:08:35 -0500 From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) Message-Id: <9212242008.AA04518@dino.alias.com> Subject: Re: For your amusement To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV (Roger Fajman) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:08:33 -0500 Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9212241827.AA15956@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "Roger Fajman" at Dec 24, 92 01:24:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL8] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1469 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm not amused. This is not the way to encourage novices to > learn to use the network. It's a good way to scare people away. Hand-holding obviously doesn't work; I've had the same 'clueless users' do the same stupid things over and over again, despite my politely correcting them (usually in person). They just assume that I'm going to continue to hold their hands, and never learn. The clueless messages were very polite; I don't see anything wrong there. I expect a certain level of competence from people on The Net (tm); it's still required to participate. Quite honestly, someone who a) can't figure out how to subscribe/unsubscribe from a list, despite all the documentation and b) responds with messages such as those presented here, is someone that I don't want on any mailing lists I belong to. UseNet news is for clueless users; in my experience mailling lists are most often an attempt to focus discussion on a technical subject without having to put up with stupid questions. Maybe you think I'm being heavy handed; go wade through the comp.sys.* hierarchy sometime for examples of the drivel that we're subjected to nowadays. -- Main's Law: For every | C. Harald Koch Alias Research, Inc. Toronto, ON action, there is an equal | chk@alias.com (work-related mail) and opposite goverment | chk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (permanent address) program. | VE3TLA@VE3OY.#SCON.ON.CA.NA (AMPRNet) From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 14:27:12 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16499; Thu, 24 Dec 92 14:27:12 PST Received: from garlic.inset.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16484; Thu, 24 Dec 92 14:26:28 PST Received: by garlic.inset.com (Sendmail:5.51/Cf:Jr.2.6) id AA28389; Thu, 24 Dec 92 17:25:46 EST From: Adam S. Moskowitz Message-Id: <9212242225.AA28389@garlic.inset.com> Subject: Re: For your amusement To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 17:25:43 EST In-Reply-To: <9212242008.AA04518@dino.alias.com>; from "C. Harald Koch" at Dec 24, 92 3:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In his message of Thu, 24 Dec 1992 15:08:33 -0500, chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch) wrote: >> I'm not amused. This is not the way to encourage novices to >> learn to use the network. It's a good way to scare people away. > > Hand-holding obviously doesn't work; > . . . > I expect a certain level of competence from people on The Net (tm); it's > still required to participate. I have to agree. If this were any other setting, I'd be willing to bet that folks who didn't know how to get started would ask around until they found someone who could help them rather than blindly forge ahead. Given the state of the technical world today, I find it hard to believe that there's anyone out there who doesn't know somebody who can point them in the right direction, or who doesn't know somebody who knows somebody who . . . That being so, I think it perfectly reasonable that folks: 1) Do it right; 2) Find someone who can tell them how to do it right; or 3) Get blasted for doing it wrong. Saying that the software should correct the user's mistakes is, to me, like saying the government should protect us from our own stupidity. Fuck that - you do something, it's your responsibility to do it right or suffer the consequences, especially when what you do affects other people. I think that automatic subscription to the clueless-users mailing list falls well within standards of ``nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.'' AdamM -- "The second law of thermodynamics states that, left to | Adam S. Moskowitz themselves, things tend to go to hell in a handbasket." | adamm@inset.com | ...!uunet!\ Cecil Adams (The Boston Phoenix) | usinset!adamm From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 15:00:52 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16683; Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:00:52 PST Received: from SERVER.uwindsor.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA16676; Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:00:33 PST Received: by SERVER.uwindsor.ca (920110.SGI/911001.SGI) for List-Managers@Greatcircle.com id AA17911; Thu, 24 Dec 92 18:03:07 -0500 Message-Id: <9212242303.AA17911@SERVER.uwindsor.ca> Subject: Re: For your amusement To: (List managers) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 18:02:53 EST In-Reply-To: <9212241827.AA15956@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM>; from "Roger Fajman" at Dec 24, 92 1:24 pm From: Scott Ophof X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger Fajman said: >I'm not amused. This is not the way to encourage novices to >learn to use the network. It's a good way to scare people away. 1: A good way to encourage novices is to present them with decently readable online documentation, help files, etc. Stuff that tells them what they *need*, without assuming that novices are gurus. Most documentation I've seen over the years (ANY kind of environment, whether computer-related or not!) assumes a lot of things from the novice, and most of those things should *not* be assumed. BTW, "common sense" can be quite envir-related... :-( 2: A good way to encourage novices to *read* documentation is to show them what happens if they don't, in a fashion that shows at least some humour. In that sense this Clueless thing seems rather nice to me. :-) 3: A good way to get doc-writers to set up their doc in a really useful way is to ensure that those doc-writers are *not* the people who wrote the application, who are also not familiar with the application, but more than familiar enough with the way novices think. IMHO more people are scared away due to the combination of LACK of decent docs followed by unexpected results, than things like Clueless itself. Regards, and merry Xmas. $$/ (F. Scott Ophof ) From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 16:35:21 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA17360; Thu, 24 Dec 92 16:35:21 PST Received: from POBOX.UCS.UMASS.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA17353; Thu, 24 Dec 92 16:35:13 PST Received: from titan.ucc.umass.edu by POBOX.UCS.UMASS.EDU (PMDF #2573 ) id <01GSPEQYJLG00005FR@POBOX.UCS.UMASS.EDU>; Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:35:32 -0500 Received: by titan.ucc.umass.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA21395; Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:35:29 -0500 Date: 24 Dec 1992 19:35:28 -0500 (EST) From: cons052@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Pres Smith) Subject: Re: For your amusement To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-Id: <9212250035.AA21395@titan.ucc.umass.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I get irritated at times by people who expect to be unsubscribed by bothering everyone on the list and I enjoyed the humor, if that's as far as it goes. But the savagely individualistic philosophy expressed by several commenters who have forgotten there own first attempts and that access by all is one of the chief benefits of the Net is sad. We have, IMHO, just ended 12 of the most disgraceful years in United States history, and if anyone should be calling for frontier justice, it is those who suffered through it. How ironic that the most prominent spokesmen for such "rough justice" are the ones who today pardoned their own crimes. Seeing that, let's put up with a little more brash, but naive ignorance, in the hopes we can train the next generation to lead the country and build community attitudes that are more responsible and less hypocritical than their parents. Pres Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prescott Smith - Univ. of Mass/Amherst - pgsmith@UCSVAX.ucs.umass.edu Ednet - a forum exploring the educational potential of the Internet e-mail to: Listserv@nic.umass.edu 1st line: Sub Ednet (Your Name) From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 24 22:49:22 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18006; Thu, 24 Dec 92 22:49:22 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA17999; Thu, 24 Dec 92 22:49:16 PST Received: by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA20865; Fri, 25 Dec 92 01:34:32 -0500 Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 05:52:44 GMT From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Received: by ssg.com (4.0/3.2.083191-System Support Group) id AA04115; Fri, 25 Dec 92 05:52:44 GMT Message-Id: <9212250552.AA04115@ssg.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: For your amusement Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As Queen Victoria is supposed to have said, "we are not amused." The original article was boorish, sexist, and generally inappropriate at its best. Let's move on instead of burning more bandwidth flagellating a deceased equine. Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "When you ski, you dance with the mountain -- | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | and the mountain always leads." | From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 25 11:11:12 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18664; Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:11:12 PST Received: from SERVER.uwindsor.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18657; Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:11:06 PST Received: by SERVER.uwindsor.ca (920110.SGI/911001.SGI) for List-Managers@Greatcircle.com id AA08934; Fri, 25 Dec 92 14:13:43 -0500 Message-Id: <9212251913.AA08934@SERVER.uwindsor.ca> Subject: Re: For your amusement To: (List managers) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 14:13:29 EST In-Reply-To: <9212250035.AA21395@titan.ucc.umass.edu>; from "Pres Smith" at Dec 24, 92 7:35 pm From: Scott Ophof X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Pres Smith said: >... > Seeing that, let's put up with a little more brash, but naive >ignorance, in the hopes we can train the next generation to lead >the country and build community attitudes that are more responsible >and less hypocritical than their parents. Pres Smith Perot spent a *lot* of money to get this message across. Let's indeed not waste it, and his efforts. And so much the better for those who feel it was taxpayers' money; we only seem able to learn from our own mistakes... May 1993 prove that we can learn *despite* whatever the politicians *we* chose will dish out. Regards. $$/ From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 25 11:26:05 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18686; Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:26:05 PST Received: from rain.psg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18679; Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:25:59 PST Received: by rain.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:25 PST Message-Id: From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) Subject: Re: For your amusement To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 11:25:54 PST In-Reply-To: <9212251913.AA08934@SERVER.uwindsor.ca>; from "Scott Ophof" at Dec 25, 92 2:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And if the candidate for whom I voted, Donald Duck, had been elected then there would be no problems running mailing lists. Please excuse my mentioning the supposed subject of this list. From List-Managers-Owner Fri Dec 25 17:58:20 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18923; Fri, 25 Dec 92 17:58:20 PST Received: from pi-chan.ucsb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA18915; Fri, 25 Dec 92 17:58:09 PST Received: by pi-chan.ucsb.edu id AA24023 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 25 Dec 1992 17:20:29 -0800 From: Jim Lick Message-Id: <199212260120.AA24023@pi-chan.ucsb.edu> Subject: newbies To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 17:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL11] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5835 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (As an aside, around these parts we don't call them clueless users, we call them 'newbies' because much of the time those who make the mistakes are new to the net. People who have been around a while and still Just Don't Get It are called 'perpetual newbies.') Anyways, to throw in my 2 currency units, this is probably the number one social problems with running a list or just being a subscriber. I've spent some time thinking about the problem, and have done my best to inform subscribers to my lists, but the problem never goes away entirely. First, upon subscribing, the user will receive a welcome message, which includes the address they subscribed under, how to change this if a mistake was made, and then the basics of using the list, and getting unsubbed later. It then goes into greater detail about how lists work, what is and isn't appropriate, covers chain letters and Craig Shergold, and all that fun stuff. I've noticed that there are a lot of lists out there that don't send any acknowledgement of subscription; articles just start showing up. They also don't acknowledge unsubscription. Other lists will just send a message saying basicly "you've been added," but don't tell you anything else. However, just as many people never look at the manual when they buy a VCR (and then complain about how they can't get the damn thing to do anything right), many subscribers will briefly glance at the welcome message and then hit the delete key (and then complain about how they can't get the damn thing to do anything right). The first line of my welcome message tells them in all caps to save it for future reference. This probably has little effectiveness though. For a while I would simply post reminders about how things work whenever there were problems. This works for a while, but people forget or get sloppy, and the problem reappears. So I took to experimenting with adding informational tags to all postings. At first the tag was added to the top of every message, but I had numerous complaints. I subsequently moved it to the bottom of each message, which doesn't seem to bother people much. There are still problems, but this seems to be the best I can do, short of making the lists moderated, which is not something I have the time for. I think I have done more than enough to inform subscribers how to do things, and thus my policy is to ignore administrative requests unless they are sent to the request address. This at leasts gets the most stubborn ones to take a few seconds to read how to do it the right way. While we're at it, and since I still have some time before Christmas Dinner, I'll share some of the other social problems and what I've done about them: Similiar to the misguided requests problem, I also have problems with subscribers posting messages either to the bounces address, or by replying to another poster. I don't look at the bounces file often enough to repost misguided messages sent there. By the time I read it, the subject of discussion has already come and gone, and little would be added by reposting them now. I just let these pass, so there's no real solution here. I have been pondering changing the envelope from address from 'listname-owner' to something like 'listname-errors' or 'listname-bounces', but someone I discussed this with pointed out that some might see that on incoming mail and think they were getting bounces instead of list postings. This usually shows up as the first line in the header, so it could be an easy target for confusion. Maybe something like 'this-is-not-a-repliable-address' would work. I'm still thinking about this though. Another problem, although thankfully fairly infrequent is the posting of inappropriate material. The way my welcome message defines this is that anything not related to the subject of the list is inappropriate, no matter how important it may otherwise be. This is fairly subjective, but I've been very liberal about things that are only kinda sort of related, but related none-the-less. However, the penalty for those who have clearly crossed the line is for them to be immediately unsubscribed from the list, and possibly a note sent to their postmaster, depending on circumstances. This has fortunately only happened a few times. Flaming is of course a long-standing net-tradition, but I try to discourage this as much as possible. However, debate and argument is by all means allowed, but personal attacks and name-calling, and other flaming type attacks are not allowed. Again, this hasn't happened very often. The one notable case was an individual who had just subscribed, and immediately began attacking the subject of the group, calling us life-less losers, and all that sort of thing. I saw similiar messages from the same user show up on other lists around the same time, so it was quite obvious that the user was just getting kicks from pissing off people. As a result, the user was unsubscribed from the group, and the problem was solved. (I can also block mail from certain users from being posted to the list, but this was not necessary. In fact the only time I've had to use it, and the reason it was added was because of a UUCP site bouncing mail to the list address.) At times some otherwise valued subscribers would slip into some flaming, but this is pretty much inevitable. Many times it's just a one time thing, but otherwise a short note asking them to please be nice will solve things. Well, that's about all I can think of for now. I hope everyone had a Merry Christmas, or at least a nice day off from work. --- jim@pi-chan.ucsb.edu --- Jim Lick --- jim@tcp.com --- jIngOrO@CaveMUCK --- --:):-- perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most -- |\| | |/| --:(:-- --- CaveMUCK is back! --- Telnet to cave.tcp.com (128.95.10.106) port 2283 --- From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 28 10:33:13 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23569; Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:33:13 PST Received: from net.bio.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23562; Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:33:07 PST Received: by net.bio.net (5.65/IG-2.0) with SMTP id AA29270; Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:33:03 -0800 Message-Id: <9212281833.AA29270@net.bio.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: For your amusement Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 10:33:01 -0800 From: "Kenton A. Hoover" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Roger Fajman" sez: > I'm not amused. This is not the way to encourage novices to > learn to use the network. It's a good way to scare people away. I would think that people from NIH would be familiar with the idea of 'kill or cure'. :-) I would never subject my biologists to something like this (I don't expect much computer savvy out of them), but I can't say that I haven't been tempted to do so (in a few cases). | Kenton A. Hoover | shibumi@net.bio.net | | BIOSCI Network Administrator | | | BIOSCI/IntelliGenetics, Inc. | +1 415 962 7300 | |=========== net.bio.net -- The New Home of the bionet Newsgroups ============| | I should be drinking a toast to absent friends instead of those comedians | From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 28 11:24:14 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23691; Mon, 28 Dec 92 11:24:14 PST Received: from elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA23684; Mon, 28 Dec 92 11:24:07 PST Received: by elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov (4.1/SMI-4.1+DXRm2.2) id AA21284; Mon, 28 Dec 92 11:24:29 PST Message-Id: <9212281924.AA21284@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: For your amusement Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 11:24:29 -0800 From: Dave Hayes Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hand-holding obviously doesn't work; I've had the same 'clueless users' do > the same stupid things over and over again, despite my politely correcting > them (usually in person). They just assume that I'm going to continue to > hold their hands, and never learn. The clueless messages were very polite; I > don't see anything wrong there. That's probably because it's not a "gross" wrongness. The subtley here is that the message accomplishes the following: 1) "There is nobody of worth reading this mailing list." This communicates that the person reading this is "nobody of worth". Now this might be funny to the right person, but you have to expect some people to choose to take offense at being implicitly regarded as worthless. "Welcome to the Clueless Users Network Test System, an intelligence test for the ignorant and impolite." isn't very polite either. In general, it's impolite to rub someone's nose in their own noviceness. 2) "If, on the other hand, you simply have no clue how to deal with mailing lists, you'd better start reading up on the subject before you go blundering around again. Your attention is cordially drawn to the newsgroups news.announce.newusers, news.newusers.questions, and news.answers." This, instead of saying "The proper way to do this is "? If it's so easy to do that a novice can do it, then why can't the person who wrote this nice bit of cordiality include the simple "send mail to -request" on it? Generally, friendly rebukes contain information for making things right, not pointers. And certainly not obvious trick questions like: "Hint: the mailing list address is clueless@mantis.co.uk. Final hint: most mail servers understand the "help" command." > I expect a certain level of competence from people on The Net (tm); it's > still required to participate. Quite honestly, someone who a) can't figure > out how to subscribe/unsubscribe from a list, despite all the documentation How does a first time mailing list user find out that there exists documentation about mailing lists? Someone who's good at particle physics may not be good at ferreting out documentation through his randomly configured Sun workstation. Maybe there's a firewall that only email can get through. > Maybe you think I'm being heavy handed; go wade through the comp.sys.* > hierarchy sometime for examples of the drivel that we're subjected to > nowadays. Well, one man's drivel is another man's wisdom. And vice versa. ------ Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov ...usc!elroy!dxh The difference between a moral man and a man of honour is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. From List-Managers-Owner Mon Dec 28 23:29:05 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24460; Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:29:05 PST Received: from m2xenix.psg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24453; Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:28:58 PST Received: by m2xenix.psg.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.4) id ; Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:26 PST Received: by rcp.pe (/\==/\ Smail3.1.25.1 #25.1) id ; Mon, 28 Dec 92 15:33 EST Received: by esan.pe (5.4.1/140.2) id AA03585; Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:30:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:30:03 -0500 From: mnaranjo@esan.pe (Martin Naranjo) Message-Id: <9212282030.AA03585@esan.pe> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Archive-server for System V Reply-To: mnaranjo@esan.pe Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Networkers: Can anybody tell me where I can get a cost-free archive-server for installing in a System V Unix machine via e-mail from? Any comments will be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Martin Naranjo mnaranjo@esan.pe From List-Managers-Owner Tue Dec 29 07:22:43 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24950; Tue, 29 Dec 92 07:22:43 PST Received: from uu3.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA24943; Tue, 29 Dec 92 07:22:36 PST Received: by uu3.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) id AA13818; Tue, 29 Dec 92 10:01:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 13:19:42 GMT From: rick@ssg.com (Rick Emerson) Received: by ssg.com (4.0/3.2.083191-System Support Group) id AA01553; Tue, 29 Dec 92 13:19:42 GMT Message-Id: <9212291319.AA01553@ssg.com> To: mnaranjo@esan.pe Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Martin Naranjo's message of Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:30:03 -0500 <9212282030.AA03585@esan.pe> Subject: Archive-server for System V Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:30:03 -0500 From: mnaranjo@esan.pe (Martin Naranjo) Reply-To: mnaranjo@esan.pe Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Networkers: Can anybody tell me where I can get a cost-free archive-server for installing in a System V Unix machine via e-mail from? Any comments will be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Martin Naranjo mnaranjo@esan.pe I recommend Johan Vromans' Mserv. Send him a note at jv@mh.nl to get details. And, of course, Mserv is available via email. Rick | Richard B. Emerson | Replies may be sent to: | | System Support Group | rick@ssg.com | | 940 Delaware Avenue |-------------------------------------------------+ | Lansdale, PA 19446 USA | "When you ski, you dance with the mountain -- | | Voice: 215.855.1607 | and the mountain always leads." | From List-Managers-Owner Thu Dec 31 14:01:56 1992 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01540; Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:01:56 PST Received: from van-bc.wimsey.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-921015) id AA01533; Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:01:42 PST Received: from vsystem by van-bc.wimsey.com with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0n7XxC-0003ZhC; Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:01 PST Received: by vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 31 Dec 92 13:46:14 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Posts by non-members From: rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (Rick Vandenberg) Message-Id: <2e2NwB1w165w@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 13:26:36 PST Organization: Vandenberg Systems Research, Vancouver BC Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've written a file- and list-server, and have a question about how I can have it handle the following situation: On one particular list, posts are allowed by non-members; that is, the poster does not need to be subscribed. The reason for this is that one of the addresses on the list points to a mail<->news gateway on another system. Messages may come from any of a thousand users on this system. Normal operation of the mailing list is to have Reply-To: point back to the mailing list. Sender: is set to MAILER-DAEMON, so bounces don't go back to the list. The difficulty occurs where a non-member posts from another site. The Reply-To: points back to the list, therefore all replies will usually go back to the list. Because the original poster is not subscribed to the list, it's doubtful that he/she will ever get a response. What I'd like to know is how other administrators handle something like this. I suppose I could build in some logic to flag a site as a gateway, and then have the software send a message to any non-member that is not at a gateway site. Something like "If you want a response to your message, you'd better subscribe quick!". Or perhaps I could have the software remove the Reply-To: header in these situations. Any ideas? Rick -- Rick Vandenberg rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca Vandenberg Systems Research For more information about V-MailServer 204 - 2255 West 5th Ave. send a blank e-mail to Vancouver, BC V6K 4K1 vmail-info-request@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca