From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Dec 4 13:46:19 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA12086; Sat, 4 Dec 93 13:46:19 GMT Received: from is.rice.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA12079; Sat, 4 Dec 93 05:46:11 PST Received: by is.rice.edu (AA03299); Sat, 4 Dec 93 07:46:53 CST From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) Message-Id: <9312041346.AA03299@is.rice.edu> Subject: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 07:46:52 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 816 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. Some people here at Rice are evaluating Unix-based listserver software. The intention is to replace our mainframe-based LISTSERV, although we have not yet decided whether an exact LISTSERV clone is a must. My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders which someone making this decision should look at? If you have an answer which would be of general interest, please post it to the list; otherwise please send it to me. (And forgive me if there's already a FAQ available and I've simply missed it.) Thanks. -- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu -- Systems Programmer, Office of Networking Services -- Rice University, POB 1892, Houston, TX 77251 / Mudd 208 / 713-285-5327 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Dec 4 21:20:43 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA13072; Sat, 4 Dec 93 21:20:43 GMT Received: from access1.speedway.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA13065; Sat, 4 Dec 93 13:20:35 PST Received: by access1.speedway.net (Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0p64Pj-000TBpC; Sat, 4 Dec 93 13:21 PST Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 13:20:25 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Brown Subject: Re: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? To: Prentiss Riddle Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9312041346.AA03299@is.rice.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On a similar note, I have some interest in any non-unix listserv products, specifically any (no jeers now...) PC-based. Jeff Brown on Speedway Free Access -- (10288)-1-503-520-2222 jbrown@speedway.net On Sat, 4 Dec 1993, Prentiss Riddle wrote: > Hi. Some people here at Rice are evaluating Unix-based listserver > software. The intention is to replace our mainframe-based LISTSERV, > although we have not yet decided whether an exact LISTSERV clone is a > must. > > My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various > available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders > which someone making this decision should look at? > > If you have an answer which would be of general interest, please post > it to the list; otherwise please send it to me. (And forgive me if > there's already a FAQ available and I've simply missed it.) Thanks. > > -- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu > -- Systems Programmer, Office of Networking Services > -- Rice University, POB 1892, Houston, TX 77251 / Mudd 208 / 713-285-5327 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Dec 5 04:24:52 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14411; Sun, 5 Dec 93 04:24:52 GMT Received: from albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14404; Sat, 4 Dec 93 20:24:43 PST Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu by albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) with SMTP id ; Sat, 4 Dec 93 23:25:17 -0500 Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (15.11/4.0) id ; Sat, 4 Dec 93 23:25:13 est Date: Sat, 4 Dec 93 23:25:13 est From: tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu Message-Id: <9312050425.AA14111@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: riddle@is.rice.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9312041346.AA03299@is.rice.edu> "riddle@is.rice.edu" Reply-To: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 675 Massachusetts Ave., Cambridge, MA 02139-3309, USA +1 (617) 876-3296 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 Subject: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 07:46:52 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 816 Precedence: bulk Hi. Some people here at Rice are evaluating Unix-based listserver software. The intention is to replace our mainframe-based LISTSERV, although we have not yet decided whether an exact LISTSERV clone is a must. My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders which someone making this decision should look at? If you have an answer which would be of general interest, please post it to the list; otherwise please send it to me. (And forgive me if there's already a FAQ available and I've simply missed it.) Thanks. -- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu -- Systems Programmer, Office of Networking Services -- Rice University, POB 1892, Houston, TX 77251 / Mudd 208 / 713-285-5327 please send me any answers you get. thanx -len Member, League for Programming Freedom. Ask: lpf@uunet.uu.net From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Dec 5 17:21:53 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA15935; Sun, 5 Dec 93 17:21:53 GMT Received: from cs-mail.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA15928; Sun, 5 Dec 93 09:21:46 PST Received: from CS.BU.EDU by cs-mail.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.1) id AA04591; Sun, 5 Dec 93 12:21:53 -0500 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: by cs.bu.edu (5.61+++/Spike-2.1) id AA26850; Sun, 5 Dec 93 12:21:52 -0500 Message-Id: <9312051721.AA26850@cs.bu.edu> Subject: Re: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? To: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 12:21:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: riddle@is.rice.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9312050425.AA14111@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu" at Dec 4, 93 11:25:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 914 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 07:46:52 -0600 (CST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Length: 816 > Precedence: bulk > > Hi. Some people here at Rice are evaluating Unix-based listserver > software. The intention is to replace our mainframe-based LISTSERV, > although we have not yet decided whether an exact LISTSERV clone is a > must. > > My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various > available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders > which someone making this decision should look at? A feature-by-feature comparison between procmail, majordomo and the listprocessor was posted on this list some time ago; check this list's archives (anon ftp to ftp.greatcircle.com). Tasos From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 04:17:53 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00670; Mon, 6 Dec 93 04:17:53 GMT Received: from cgl.ucsf.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA00638; Sun, 5 Dec 93 20:13:58 PST Received: from ccnext.ucsf.edu by cgl.ucsf.EDU (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id PAA00525 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1993 15:23:58 -0800 Received: by ccnext.ucsf.edu (NX5.67d/NeXT-1.0) id AA00888; Sun, 5 Dec 93 15:24:27 -0800 Date: Sun, 5 Dec 93 15:24:27 -0800 From: owner@ccnext.ucsf.edu (Richard Karpinski) Message-Id: <9312052324.AA00888@ccnext.ucsf.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: non-LISTSERV list managers Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are two major contenders, as far as I can tell: Majordomo is, I believe, the more modest of them, in case you want to run something on other than Unix. I had an extended fight with it before I got it to run pretty much correctly on a RISC/6000 under AIX, so check with me if you run into that. The author of Majordomo runs this very list so I think you get it from ftp.greatcircle.com. Listproc, written by someone at Boston University, is so much like LISTSERV that it was called listserv for Unix until the author of LISTSERV for CMS (Eric Thomas?) objected that he was getting bug reports on this stuff that was not his. The Unix version is now called listproc (listprocessor) and may be available from bu.edu so ask archie. I haven't ever built listproc, so I too will be very interested in hearing any comparisons. I now have mail scanning programs using awk, and again usin Perl. It only took me a few hours when I finally had to do it today, but it pleases me to have an awk meta-scanner (builds particular scanners from very simple tables of values and patterns) in just a couple of pages of fairly simple code. I even built a debugging version which tells you more than you wanted to know about how it's working. I can't yet use the Perl version on my NeXT due to some assembler error during make. If you have a clue how to deal with that, it's the only request I make in this missive. Dick ps None of this is authenticated, but the author would appreciate (but as just above, will not request) hearing about any errors. From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 15:12:20 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02784; Mon, 6 Dec 93 15:12:20 GMT Received: from cs.utah.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02777; Mon, 6 Dec 93 07:12:13 PST Received: by cs.utah.edu (5.65/utah-2.21-cs) id AA22144; Mon, 6 Dec 93 08:12:55 -0700 From: zeleznik@cs.utah.edu (Mike Zeleznik) Message-Id: <9312061512.AA22144@cs.utah.edu> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 08:12:54 MST Subject: Re: non-LISTSERV list managers To: owner@ccnext.ucsf.edu (Richard Karpinski) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: owner@ccnext.ucsf.edu (Richard Karpinski), Sun, 5 Dec 93 15:24:27 -0800 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Following is one difference between Majordomo and Listproc that was critical for us. Prior to looking for a list processor, we created many lists on one machine, where some lists included other lists, and people routinely cross-posted for coverage. Sendmail takes care of expanding the whole mess and removing duplicate addresses so people only get one copy of postings. Listproc will NOT provide this behavior, whereas Majordomo will. Mike ------- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 18:04:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03402; Mon, 6 Dec 93 18:04:49 GMT Received: from rara.ossi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03395; Mon, 6 Dec 93 10:04:42 PST Received: from foucault.ossi.com (foucault.ossi.com [192.240.4.2]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA09745 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 10:05:20 -0800 Received: from localhost (cds@localhost) by foucault.ossi.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA07918 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 10:05:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 10:05:19 -0800 From: Chris Seabrook Message-Id: <199312061805.KAA07918@foucault.ossi.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: A question of philosophy Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I thought people might find my experiences with the lists run from ossi.com interesting. We use a home grown script to archive mailing list posting, stamp the subject line with the listname and a sequence number and resend the post. The other thing which the script does is insert a Reply-To: header into the message. I elected to do this because we were seeing a lot of information (particularly on our local technical lists) disappearing into private email when people replied without looking at the headers, now all replies by default go to the list. I've been quite amused by the resction to this on the public lists we run. Most subscribers seem happy with it, and indeed I've received several messages saying how useful it is, however a small and vocal minority object to this strongly. I think mostly those with doubtful MUA's. The particulat combination I am asked for most frequently is to have list posting appear From: , To: and Cc: . The lists from ossi.com currently have the following headers: From owner- From: Reply-To: Sender: owner- To: Cc: Subject: ( ###) What behaviour/header values have other people been asked for by their subscribers ?? --Chris From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 18:30:42 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03506; Mon, 6 Dec 93 18:30:42 GMT Received: from ac.dal.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03499; Mon, 6 Dec 93 10:30:23 PST Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01H65V80KMOW003V3X@AC.DAL.CA>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:30:50 -0400 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA00281; Mon, 6 Dec 93 14:29:39 -0400 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 14:29:38 -0400 (AST) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: A question of philosophy To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <9312061829.AA00281@biome.bio.ns.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1969 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that having the correct reply-to address is essential to a successful list, but whether it should be the poster or the list depends on the kind of traffic. For a list discussing bug reports it is generally desirable to make the list itself be the default return address. But for many technical groups, you get postings like this: Posting> Does anyone have data on growth rates of Dolus fictus? Answer> Hi John, yes, I have the data you want. The replies are generally so specialized that they should not go to the list. Another factor is the computer sophistication of the list members. For this list I assume that most members know how to readdress mail, but for many groups the above exchange will be followed by a lot of postings of the form: Followup> Hi John, haven't seen you for a while! You still going out with that crazy student with red hair? Better make sure the chair of your department doesn't find out! >Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 10:05:19 -0800 >From: Chris Seabrook >Subject: A question of philosophy > >We use a home grown script to archive mailing list posting, stamp the subject >line with the listname and a sequence number and resend the post. The other >thing which the script does is insert a Reply-To: header into the >message. I elected to do this because we were seeing a lot of information >(particularly on our local technical lists) disappearing into private email >when people replied without looking at the headers, now all replies by default >go to the list. > >I've been quite amused by the resction to this on the public lists we run. >Most subscribers seem happy with it, and indeed I've received several messages >saying how useful it is, however a small and vocal minority object to this >strongly. I think mostly those with doubtful MUA's. The particulat combination >I am asked for most frequently is to have list posting appear From: , >To: and Cc: . From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 18:42:56 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03587; Mon, 6 Dec 93 18:42:56 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03580; Mon, 6 Dec 93 10:42:46 PST Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <23993>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 13:43:16 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A question of philosophy In-Reply-To: bill's message of Mon, 06 Dec 1993 13:29:38 -0500. <9312061829.AA00281@biome.bio.ns.ca> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 13:43:03 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <93Dec6.134316est.23993@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The problem is that Reply-To: is overloaded. In one meaning it means 'where you should send messages to reach the person in the From: header'; in another meaning it's been hijacked to be 'where replies should go by default'. The two meanings don't cooperate very well; particularly, there are mail packages which are fairly insistent on using the Reply-To address instead of the From address (an obvious lose if you really *do* want to send mail to the author of a message on such a mailing list). - cks From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 19:05:16 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03730; Mon, 6 Dec 93 19:05:16 GMT Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03721; Mon, 6 Dec 93 11:05:06 PST Received: from pow (pow.ncl.ac.uk) by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 for ) with SMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:05:47 GMT From: John Martin Message-Id: Subject: Re: A question of philosophy To: cds@ossi.com (Chris Seabrook) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:05:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199312061805.KAA07918@foucault.ossi.com> from "Chris Seabrook" at Dec 6, 93 10:05:19 am Organisation: NISP Mailbase (TM) Address: Computing Service, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU, UK Phone: +44 91 222 8087 (voice) +44 91 222 8765 (fax) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 727 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What behaviour/header values have other people been asked for by their > subscribers ?? We at Mailbase were asked for, and now provide, this feature ... However, there are important feature differences: 1. It is an option, determined by the list owner, whether the Reply-To field should contain the name of the list. The list owner can change this at any time. 2. If a Reply-To field exists in the incoming message then one is not added. Thus a user still has the option to request a private response. This is not a flame but I'm not sure I agree with removing Reply-To headers from incoming mail, but then I dont suppose you are contravening RFC822 so it is up to you. Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 19:09:01 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03767; Mon, 6 Dec 93 19:09:01 GMT Received: from cheviot.ncl.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03760; Mon, 6 Dec 93 11:08:48 PST Received: from pow (pow.ncl.ac.uk) by cheviot.ncl.ac.uk id (5.65cVUW/NCL-CMA.1.35 for ) with SMTP; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:09:28 GMT From: John Martin Message-Id: Subject: Re: A question of philosophy To: cds@ossi.com (Chris Seabrook) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:09:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199312061805.KAA07918@foucault.ossi.com> from "Chris Seabrook" at Dec 6, 93 10:05:19 am Organisation: NISP Mailbase (TM) Address: Computing Service, University of Newcastle, Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU, UK Phone: +44 91 222 8087 (voice) +44 91 222 8765 (fax) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 439 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry, the last one went out too soon... One of the other problems with adding a Reply-To which points to the list is that some broken MTAs send error reports to the address in the Reply-To field if one exists!!! Be warned. I also had a problem with Pegasus Read-Confirmation messages being sent to the list for the same reason! (this can be cured by stripping off the 'X-Pmrqc' header). Regards, John -- AKA: postmaster@mailbase.ac.uk From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 19:36:50 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03902; Mon, 6 Dec 93 19:36:50 GMT Received: from livbird.liv.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03895; Mon, 6 Dec 93 11:36:42 PST Received: from liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk with Local-SMTP (PP) id <00320-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:28:31 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: A question of philosophy In-Reply-To: The Message of "Mon, 06 Dec 93 19:05:45 GMT." Date: Mon, 06 Dec 93 19:28:29 +0000 Message-Id: <318.755206109@livbird.liv.ac.uk> From: Alan Thew Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:05:45 +0000 (GMT) John Martin wrote: >> What behaviour/header values have other people been asked for by their >> subscribers ?? > >We at Mailbase were asked for, and now provide, this feature ... >However, there are important feature differences: > >1. It is an option, determined by the list owner, whether the Reply-To >field should contain the name of the list. The list owner can change >this at any time. > >2. If a Reply-To field exists in the incoming message then one is not >added. > This is the same as BITNET LISTSERV and is my personal preference. -- Alan Thew alan.thew@livbird.liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!livbird!alan.thew +44 51 794 3735 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 12:20:08 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04005; Mon, 6 Dec 93 19:58:05 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03969; Mon, 6 Dec 93 11:57:47 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id OAA15779; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 14:51:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199312061951.OAA15779@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Chris Seabrook Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: A question of philosophy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Dec 1993 10:05:19 PST." <199312061805.KAA07918@foucault.ossi.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 14:51:26 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > We use a home grown script to archive mailing list posting, stamp the > subject line with the listname and a sequence number and resend the post. > The other thing which the script does is insert a Reply-To: > header into the message. I elected to do this because we were seeing a > lot of information (particularly on our local technical lists) > disappearing into private email when people replied without looking at > the headers, now all replies by default go to the list. Interesting. My own opinion is that reply-to is best reserved for use by the sender of the original message, to allow him to override the default behavior for that list. In some environments the default reply command addresses a reply to the sender and all recipients. In others, replies are addressed to the sender only. Many of the user complaints I've heard are related to a clash between the two "cultures" -- users from each environment expect lists to behave a certain way. In the first case there is rarely a need for the list manager to do anything to ensure that replies (by default) go to the list -- the list address is already in a To or CC field of the message header. (Though sometimes (sigh) this address is that of some site's "local interface" to a list rather than the address of the list itself.) We have had a different problem here. Several of our lists are intended for announcements rather than for discussion. These lists grew up in a VMS MAIL environment (where replies go to the sender only). After migrating both the users and the lists to UNIX and Internet mail, many users embarassed themselves by sending replies of a sensitive or personal nature to the entire department! The eventual solution (besides an attempt at user education) was to make the list expander optionally (on a per-list basis) rename the to and cc headers to x-original-to and x-original-cc. The from address remains that of the sender, and a new to header field is added, using the 822 group syntax, with the preceeding phrase containing the name of the list. This solution has been very successful, resulting in practically no complaints and general approval from those few users sophisticated enough to understand what was going on. The only problems we have observed were an occasional bounced message from some picky MTA at another site, complaining about a message that had already gone through a broken sendmail, which had appended an @domain to the group in the To header field. Keith Moore From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 20:53:24 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04178; Mon, 6 Dec 93 20:53:24 GMT Received: from goose.aa.ox.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04171; Mon, 6 Dec 93 12:53:12 PST Received: by goose.aa.ox.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.22.1 #22.9) id ; Mon, 6 Dec 93 15:53 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 93 15:53 EST From: paulh@ox.com (Paul Haas) To: cds@ossi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A question of philosophy Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chris Seabrook wrote: > What behaviour/header values have other people been asked for by their > subscribers ?? It varies with the message. Someone who intends to start a discussion wants replies to go to the whole list. On the other hand, someone who needs to get a count of how many individuals are going to a function that requires reservations, wants replies to go to the author. 37 "I'll be there" messages gets a bit annoying for the subscribers to a list. Note that both of the above "someones" may be the same person posting to the same list. Our cheap hack is to have the sender put the list as a blind carbon ("Bcc:") when he explicitly did not want replies to go the list. I'd like to see a more elegant solution. I'm hoping that recent events will force most systems to upgrade to modern mailers. -- Paul Haas paulh@ox.com From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 22:15:29 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04348; Mon, 6 Dec 93 22:15:29 GMT Received: from cs.utexas.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04341; Mon, 6 Dec 93 14:15:21 PST Received: from im4u.cs.utexas.edu by cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.16/mx-relay) with SMTP id AA16296; Mon, 6 Dec 93 16:15:38 -0600 Received: from chinaca by im4u.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.33/uucp) with UUCP id AA02433; Mon, 6 Dec 93 16:15:43 -0600 Received: from localhost by chinacat.unicom.com (smail3.1.28.1) id m0p6oC2-0002SDC; Mon, 6 Dec 93 16:14 CST Message-Id: From: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Subject: Re: A question of philosophy To: paulh@ox.com (Paul Haas) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1993 16:14:09 -0600 (CST) Cc: cds@ossi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Paul Haas" at Dec 6, 93 03:53:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 829 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas writes: > Our cheap hack is to have the sender put the list as a blind carbon > ("Bcc:") when he explicitly did not want replies to go the list. I'd > like to see a more elegant solution. My solution is to munge headers to ensure the list name appears in the To: address. This allows people with mailers that support both reply and group-reply functions to work corectly. Messing with Reply-To headers is a mistake. I learned that the hard way. It's a simple and naive answer to the problem. I fell for it, and many others have too. It, however, is a cure worse than the problem. -- Chip Rosenthal 512-447-0577 | I'm going out where the lights don't shine so Unicom Systems Development | bright. When I get back you can treat me like | a Saturday night. -Jimmie Dale Gilmore From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 6 22:53:45 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04442; Mon, 6 Dec 93 22:53:45 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04435; Mon, 6 Dec 93 14:53:30 PST Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id RAA16765; Mon, 6 Dec 1993 17:46:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199312062246.RAA16765@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Cc: paulh@ox.com (Paul Haas), cds@ossi.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: A question of philosophy In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Dec 1993 16:14:09 CST." Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1993 17:46:00 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chip Rosenthal writes: > My solution is to munge headers to ensure the list name appears in > the To: address. This allows people with mailers that support both > reply and group-reply functions to work corectly. Messing with Reply-To > headers is a mistake. I learned that the hard way. It's a simple > and naive answer to the problem. I fell for it, and many others have > too. It, however, is a cure worse than the problem. Did you mean the From: address? (I ask because changing the To: address doesn't cause reply-to-sender-only traffic to go to the list, and I'm guessing that this is what you mean by "reply" as opposed to "group-reply".) On many lists (like ietf), I don't read everybody's messages; I scan the list of senders and subjects and decide which topics are worth my concern. Changing the From address would prevent this. > Messing with Reply-to headers is a mistake. Just curious...what were the problems? While I generally prefer that list expanders do minimal munging of message headers, it seems like the "add a reply-to header if the sender didn't supply one" behavior would work as well as anything else I've seen. Keith From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Dec 7 10:54:09 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA06396; Tue, 7 Dec 93 10:54:09 GMT Received: from CS.UWindsor.Ca (csgate.lamf.uwindsor.ca) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA06389; Tue, 7 Dec 93 02:54:00 PST Received: by CS.UWindsor.Ca (4.1/SMI-DDN) id AA25180; Tue, 7 Dec 93 05:53:14 EST Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1993 05:29:27 -0400 From: "F. Scott Ophof" Organization: Coming RSN... Subject: Re: A question of philosophy Message-Id: <931207.052927-0400@MReXX-0.21> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Dec 93 19:28:29 +0000 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 06 Dec 93 19:28:29 +0000 Alan Thew said: >On Mon, 6 Dec 1993 19:05:45 +0000 (GMT) John Martin wrote: ... >>2. If a Reply-To field exists in the incoming message then one is not >>added. >This is the same as BITNET LISTSERV and is my personal preference. It is the default setting for a large number of mailing lists, with the post-to-list address in the Reply-To if the poster didn't include a Reply-To. But there are enough lists which force the Reply-To to show either the posters addr, or the post-to-list address. Whoever said that Reply-To thus can have two different meanings sure hit the nail on the head. So yet another reason to cast about for a better, more consistent setup. Like, someone somewhere suggested List-Reply[-To] for replies to the list reply address, and Reply-To for the poster's address. And although not relevant to mailing lists, a News-Reply[-To] would make for consistency for people using their MUA as newsreader (which is one of the newer trends, it seems). Regards. $$/ [Member of RexxLA] --- REXX: A user's dream in a system programmer's world... From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Wed Dec 8 22:08:39 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14715; Wed, 8 Dec 93 22:08:39 GMT Received: from is.rice.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14708; Wed, 8 Dec 93 14:08:29 PST Received: by is.rice.edu (AA24961); Wed, 8 Dec 93 16:08:27 CST From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) Message-Id: <9312082208.AA24961@is.rice.edu> Subject: Re: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? To: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1993 16:08:26 -0600 (CST) Cc: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu, riddle@is.rice.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9312051721.AA26850@cs.bu.edu> from "Anastasios Kotsikonas" at Dec 5, 93 12:21:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1398 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From tasos@cs.bu.edu Sun Dec 5 11:22:38 1993 > Subject: Re: Comparison of Unix-based listserver software? > To: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu > Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1993 12:21:50 -0500 (EST) > > > From: riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1993 07:46:52 -0600 (CST) > > > > Hi. Some people here at Rice are evaluating Unix-based listserver > > software. The intention is to replace our mainframe-based LISTSERV, > > although we have not yet decided whether an exact LISTSERV clone is a > > must. > > > > My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various > > available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders > > which someone making this decision should look at? > > A feature-by-feature comparison between procmail, majordomo and the > listprocessor was posted on this list some time ago; check this list's archives > (anon ftp to ftp.greatcircle.com). Thanks. However, the archive is now voluminous enough that without an index or a more specific date, finding the comparison in the archive is a rather daunting task. If anyone reading this happened to have a copy at hand that would be very helpful... -- Prentiss Riddle ("aprendiz de todo, maestro de nada") riddle@rice.edu -- Systems Programmer, Office of Networking Services -- Rice University, POB 1892, Houston, TX 77251 / Mudd 208 / 713-285-5327 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Wed Dec 8 22:42:30 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14766; Wed, 8 Dec 93 22:42:30 GMT Received: from snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA14758; Wed, 8 Dec 93 14:42:18 PST Received: by snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (5.64/1.35) id AA18054; Wed, 8 Dec 93 17:42:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 93 17:42:25 -0500 From: david@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (David C. J. Leip) Message-Id: <9312082242.AA18054@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mailing to a GEnie site Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone tell me how to mail to anyone on GEnie? Can someone give me the name of a gateway, etc. Thanks. - David. +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | David Leip | | University of Guelph | | Computing & Information Science work: (416) 448-3027 | | Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 home: (519) 766-1834 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Dec 9 15:44:21 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA17671; Thu, 9 Dec 93 15:44:21 GMT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA17664; Thu, 9 Dec 93 07:44:13 PST Received: from spool.uu.net (via LOCALHOST) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA05693; Thu, 9 Dec 93 10:44:32 -0500 Received: from rde.UUCP by uucp4.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL (queueing-rmail) id 104218.13970; Thu, 9 Dec 1993 10:42:18 EST Received: from homebase.vistachrome.com by cyan.vistachrome.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08771; Thu, 9 Dec 93 10:04:18 EST Received: by homebase.vistachrome.com (5.65/1.35) id AA12905; Thu, 9 Dec 93 10:04:10 -0500 From: andy@homebase.vistachrome.com (Andy Finkenstadt) Message-Id: <9312091504.AA12905@homebase.vistachrome.com> Subject: Re: mailing to a GEnie site To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 10:04:09 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 783 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To send mail to a GEnie user, use "user@genie.geis.com" where "user" is their mail address. If a user tells you their mail address is "xyz12345" or something similar, it isn't. It usually looks like A.BEEBER42 where A is their first initial, BEEBER is their last name, and 42 is a number distinguishing them from all other A.BEEBER's. The gateway name is 'relay2.geis.com', and the user could alternately be addressed as 'user%genie@relay2.geis.com'. -Andy GEnie Postmaster postmaster@genie.geis.com -- Andrew Finkenstadt | Systems Analyst, Homes & Land Publishing Corporation +1 904-575-0189 | GEnie Sysop ,,, andy@genie.geis.com | (. .) Peek-a-boo! andy@homes.com +----------------------o00-(_)-00o--------------------- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Thu Dec 9 23:02:15 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20346; Thu, 9 Dec 93 23:02:15 GMT Received: from cs.utexas.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20339; Thu, 9 Dec 93 15:02:06 PST Received: from im4u.cs.utexas.edu by cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.19/mx-relay) with SMTP id AA28049; Thu, 9 Dec 93 17:02:28 -0600 Received: from chinaca by im4u.cs.utexas.edu (5.64/1.33/uucp) with UUCP id AA01442; Thu, 9 Dec 93 17:02:32 -0600 Received: from localhost by chinacat.unicom.com (smail3.1.28.1) id m0p7tzz-0002VTC; Thu, 9 Dec 93 16:38 CST Message-Id: From: chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Subject: Re: A question of philosophy To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1993 16:38:15 -0600 (CST) Cc: paulh@ox.com, cds@ossi.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199312062246.RAA16765@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Dec 6, 93 05:46:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1850 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > Chip Rosenthal writes: > > My solution is to munge headers to ensure the list name appears in > > the To: address. This allows people with mailers that support both > > reply and group-reply functions to work corectly. > > Did you mean the From: address? No. Both From: and Reply-To: munging are bad news imo. > (I ask because changing the To: address > doesn't cause reply-to-sender-only traffic to go to the list, and I'm > guessing that this is what you mean by "reply" as opposed to "group-reply".) I'm using the terminology from Elm, although other mailers implement the functions, possibly under different names. In Elm, a R)eply goes to the person listed in the From: header, overridden by Reply-To if present. A G)roup-reply goes to everybody. Thus, by ensuring the mailing list address is present in the To: header, I cause G)roup-reply responses go to the list but simple R)eply responses go just to the author. Obviously, this won't work with all mail readers, but catering to broken or ill-equiped software is, in general, a bad idea. Anybody remember the way uunet used to rewrite nearly everything passing through it? It helped a handful of sites, and created loads of problems for the rest of us. Further, I do not like to penalize people with capable software in order to serve those without. Sometimes, it's beyond the user's control, such as an irrepairable system bug, and you need to deal with it. In this case, I can't see crippling the people who use something like Elm or mush in order to support those too lazy to use anything other than binmail for reading. -- Chip Rosenthal 512-447-0577 | I'm going out where the lights don't shine so Unicom Systems Development | bright. When I get back you can treat me like | a Saturday night. -Jimmie Dale Gilmore From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Dec 10 02:13:20 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22072; Fri, 10 Dec 93 02:13:20 GMT Received: from tonto (tonto.scs.unr.edu) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22064; Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:10 PST Received: from unssun.scs.unr.edu by tonto (4.1/1.34) id AA22024; Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:25 PST Received: by unssun.scs.unr.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26774; Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:28 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 93 18:13:28 PST From: willis@scs.unr.edu (Glee Willis) Message-Id: <9312100213.AA26774@unssun.scs.unr.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Comparison of list manager software Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 4 Dec 1993, riddle@is.rice.edu (Prentiss Riddle) asked: >My question: Has anyone done a comparison of features among the various >available packages? Or even compiled a list of the leading contenders >which someone making this decision should look at? My apologies for the delayed response. I assumed someone else would jump in here and provide this link info before I got around to it ... I can't remember how hold this document is, and it is also not strictly a list of *list management* software, but it includes the "leading contenders", as per Prentiss' request. A really stOOpid veronica search on the term "mail" pulls it up ... buried many results screens deep (because I can never remember the "archive server software" part of its title). ># >Type=0 >Name=Mail Archive Server software list >Path=0/FAQ/comp/mail_archive-servers >Host=gopher.physics.utoronto.ca >Port=70 >URL: gopher://gopher.physics.utoronto.ca:70/0/0/FAQ/comp/mail_archive-servers Virtually, Glee Willis Internet: willis@unssun.scs.unr.edu Engineering Librarian Bitnet: willis@equinox Engineering Library (262) FAX: (702) 784-1751 University of Nevada Telephone: (702) 784-6827 Reno, NV 89557-0044 I don't `do' disclaimers. -==--==--==-<>-==--==--==--==--==--==-<>-==--==--==--==--==--==-<>-==--==--==- "Without leaps of imagination, of dreaming, we lose the excitement of possibilities. Dreaming, after all, is a form of planning." -- Gloria Steinem -==--==--==-<>-==--==--==--==--==--==-<>-==--==--==--==--==--==-<>-==--==--==- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sat Dec 11 23:00:26 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA28877; Sat, 11 Dec 93 23:00:26 GMT Received: from ub-gate.UB.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA28842; Sat, 11 Dec 93 15:00:01 PST Received: from bolis.UUCP by ub-gate.UB.com (4.1/SMI-4.1[UB-1.8]) id AA24768; Sat, 11 Dec 93 14:51:02 PST Received: by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0p8j9e-0002asC; Sat, 11 Dec 93 21:15 PST Message-Id: From: Alan Millar Subject: How do you deal with postings to "owner-listname"? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1993 21:15:36 -0800 (PST) Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Reply-To: Alan Millar X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1474 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi- I'm running several mailing lists with Majordomo. I'm using the "resend" script which modifies each message so that the envelope says the message is from "owner-listname" instead of the original sender. The "owner-" addresses are aliased to me, so I receive error notices and bounces. That way the list members and the sender don't have to see them. However, on a regular basis people will send a message for the list to the owner- address instead of the list address. This is probably because they're using a lame MUA, but in actuality it doesn't really matter why; it's just annoying. If I feel like doing a little typing, sometimes I'll drop the poster a note telling them what they did. Usually I just use elm's "bounce" command to send it along to the list. How do other list owners deal with this? Do you reply to them, forward them, or just drop them? What I'd really like is a little script that would read the headers to see which "owner-...." address they sent it to, and then plug the correct address into a reply telling them what they did wrong and how to fix it. Has anyone created one of these yet? Any better suggestions? Thanks! - Alan ---- ,,,, Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org __oo \ System Administrator =___/ If only we were all weiner dogs, our problems would be solved! -Brave Little Toaster From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 13 03:18:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02547; Mon, 13 Dec 93 03:18:49 GMT Received: from gac.edu (spinner.gac.edu) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA02540; Sun, 12 Dec 93 19:18:35 PST Received: from genvid.com by gac.edu (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/GAC-1.0.R9309061) id AB20209; Sun, 12 Dec 93 21:17:46 CST Message-Id: <9312130317.AB20209@gac.edu> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1993 21:18:01 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Paul@gac.edu (Paul Kleeberg) X-Sender: paul@pop-server.gac.edu Subject: listproc passwords Cc: Dan@gac.edu (Dan Boehlke), Kraft@gac.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am not a computer system person by training but there is something that has bugged me that I thought I would bring up to this group. I apologize if it has arisen here before. Our system is using Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas. When a new user subscribes, it tells the subscriber to change their password. (The password enables them to change their address to a new one by sending listproc a command.) The listproc then sends verification of the changed password to both the subscriber and to the list manager (myself). I can't help but believe this is a security hole. If others are like me, they use only one or two passwords for all the systems they access. The way Listproc *announces* their new password to me when it is reset and then stores it in a file unencrypted seems like asking for trouble. Thoughts anyone? Paul -- Paul Kleeberg, M.D. | Paul@GAC.Edu Family Practice | Paul@GACVAX1 1415 N Washington Ave, #502 | Voice: 507-931-9046 St. Peter, Minnesota 56082 USA | Fax: 507-931-6752 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 13 15:34:19 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03962; Mon, 13 Dec 93 15:34:19 GMT Received: from pobox.ucs.umass.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA03955; Mon, 13 Dec 93 07:34:10 PST Received: from titan.ucs.umass.edu by pobox.ucs.umass.edu (PMDF V4.2-14 #2573) id <01H6FEUK48W0003FYZ@pobox.ucs.umass.edu>; Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:29:49 -0500 Received: by titan.ucs.umass.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA01253; Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:29:41 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 10:29:40 -0500 (EST) From: Pres Smith Subject: Re: listproc passwords To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <9312131529.AA01253@titan.ucs.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1658 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since most of us belong to many lists and have to keep a database of basic instructions about them, the name/address of the list owner, etc., it is easy enough to vary the password of each one. In any event there isn't much anyone can do with an email list password, since both the "From: " address and the password must match--a catch-22 that renders this feature of little use for changing the address, since in most instances the systems people have already changed the address and it no longer matches. Yes, the "From: " address could be forged, but besides inconveniencing a few individual subscribers and causing problems for the list-owner, this wouldn't seem to make much sense. If you're suggesting that subscribers tend to use their host account password as a list password as well, that would be very ill-advised. In any event, since most hosts require frequent changes of account passwords as a condition of remaining on the system, this practice would seem to be self-defeating as a way of remembering a password and highly inconvenient in having to change the password of each list to match every time the account password changed. Unless it opens up some kind of hole into the listproc host, I don't see the problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prescott Smith - Univ. of Mass/Amherst - pgsmith@educ.umass.edu Ednet - a forum exploring the educational potential of the Internet e-mail to: Listproc@nic.umass.edu 1st line: Sub Ednet (Your Name) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 13 16:29:35 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04273; Mon, 13 Dec 93 16:29:35 GMT Received: from pobox.ucs.umass.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04252; Mon, 13 Dec 93 08:29:24 PST Received: from titan.ucs.umass.edu by pobox.ucs.umass.edu (PMDF V4.2-14 #2573) id <01H6FGYIWCG00034TI@pobox.ucs.umass.edu>; Mon, 13 Dec 1993 11:30:13 -0500 Received: by titan.ucs.umass.edu (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA08420; Mon, 13 Dec 1993 11:30:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 11:30:10 -0500 (EST) From: Pres Smith Subject: Re: listproc passwords To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <9312131630.AA08420@titan.ucs.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1187 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wrote: > [.....] > > In any event there isn't much anyone can do with an email list > password, since both the "From: " address and the password must > match--a catch-22 that renders this feature of little use for changing > the address, since in most instances the systems people have already > changed the address and it no longer matches. I'm informed that this is incorrect. The address can be changed with the password alone, even if the "From: " header field no longer matches the original subscription address. There is another feature to listproc that I haven't used--the interactive "live" mode--in which it is possible to change a subscriber's address that has already changed. Sorry for spreading my own misinformation. Pres ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prescott Smith - Univ. of Mass/Amherst - pgsmith@UCSVAX.ucs.umass.edu Ednet - a forum exploring the educational potential of the Internet e-mail to: Listserv@nic.umass.edu 1st line: Sub Ednet (Your Name) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Mon Dec 13 19:19:49 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04887; Mon, 13 Dec 93 19:19:49 GMT Received: from note2.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA04880; Mon, 13 Dec 93 11:19:38 PST Received: from z.nsf.gov by Note2.nsf.gov id aa27018; 13 Dec 93 8:05 EST Received: by z.nsf.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28513; Mon, 13 Dec 93 08:10:17 EST Message-Id: <9312131310.AA28513@z.nsf.gov> From: "Michael H. Morse" Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1993 08:10:16 EST In-Reply-To: Paul@gac.edu (Paul Kleeberg) "listproc passwords" (Dec 12, 9:18pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Paul Kleeberg , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: listproc passwords Cc: Dan Boehlke , Kraft@gac.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I can't help but believe this is a security hole. If others are like me, > they use only one or two passwords for all the systems they access. The way > Listproc *announces* their new password to me when it is reset and then > stores it in a file unencrypted seems like asking for trouble. What I do is use two passwords, one for systems that I think are relatively secure, and one for systems I know nothing about (such as bbs's and listproc). Listproc doesn't really need very tight security, so the author has tried to strike a balance between administrative and user convenience and some semblance of security. The problem is that Listproc commands are not used very often, so the chance of a user remembering their password seems remote. Nonetheless, perhaps some educational verbage might be appropriate. --Mike From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Dec 17 03:49:14 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01094; Fri, 17 Dec 93 09:38:12 GMT Received: from odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil ([144.170.207.3]) by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA01087; Fri, 17 Dec 93 01:37:37 PST Received: by odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil id <3276>; Fri, 17 Dec 1993 10:39:38 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1993 10:39:26 -0000 From: mmdfii@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Listserv/bbs Software Message-Id: <93Dec17.103938gmt.3276@odcsper.heidelberg-emh17.army.mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Fellow Netters: Forgive me if I am mixing conversational topics but I have tried Archie and several other sources with mixed results. What I am looking for is some type of listserv and bbs software that will run on the Interactive Unix platform. Can anyone help me? Thanks... --bob *********************************************************************** Robert (Bob) L. Stringfield HQ USAREUR & 7A (ODCSPER) CMR 420 Box 1687 APO AE 09063 ETS: 370-6517/8444 COML: 06221-57-6517/8444 (Germany) FAX: 06221-390838 IRC Nick - DeathStar (:ds) bstring@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil or bstring@odcsper.heidelberg-emh17. army.mil or root@heidelberg-emh17.army.mil Truth: IGNORANCE hates knowledge.... ************************************************************************* From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Dec 21 05:36:18 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20748; Tue, 21 Dec 93 05:36:18 GMT Received: from bos3a.delphi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20741; Mon, 20 Dec 93 21:36:01 PST Received: from delphi.com by delphi.com (PMDF V4.2-11 #4520) id <01H6Q0E26AHC937WN6@delphi.com>; Tue, 21 Dec 1993 00:34:44 EDT Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 00:34:44 -0400 (EDT) From: IRENESTUBER@delphi.com Subject: Sister Spirit - corrections and needs (LONG) To: sappho@mc.lcs.mit.edu, earthwoman@aol.com, libfem@math.uio.no, feminism@ncar.ucar.edu, cerridwena@AOL.com, amazons-request@math.uio.no, list-managers@greatCircle.com, shollowa@ucs.indiana.edu, Jamiel@sybase.com, jsirius@netcom.com, Michaela_Baldwin@bmugbos.org Message-Id: <01H6Q0E26AHE937WN6@delphi.com> X-Vms-To: @SISTERS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please, the hostility for Camp Sister Spirit is growing and the dangers are real ... don't take the following as anything but straightening out a few quotes. The situation remains critical, dangerous, and totally wrong for the United States. The Mississippi religious supremacist would force their views on everyone else. As an ex newspaper reporter who did a of investigative work, I hang my head low... I didn't triple check some sources and the story on Sister Spirit camp came out a bit off center from what went on ... (I had depended on several women who were friends of the Hensons and allegedly were privy to what was going on; they said they were "quoting" telephone calls ... oh, well ... BUT, and I can't emphasize this too much, the situation at Sister Spirit camp is critical - THE DANGER IS REAL.) I spoke directly with Wanda tonight (Monday 12-20-93) and this is what she said: The food bank, clothes closet and women's advocacy has not being done directly at Camp Sister Spirit in Ovett, Ms., but at the original location of Sister Spirit in Gulfport, Ms., but they have been getting women calling them for help at Camp Sister Spirit - especially since they have been getting publicity. "We can advocate and help them by listening and referring," Wanda said. "One woman called from Memphis seeking help." The Hensons see Camp Sister Spirit primarily as a feminist education retreat center where women can learn, have workshops and seminars, hold meetings, etc. They will be dealing primarily with poor or working class women, and therefor the money base is thin. Wanda said there are no women's studies programs at Mississippi colleges and universities. In practical terms, there are actually TWO Sister Spirits - the original (and still operating) in Gulfport, Ms., which has the advocacy programs, food bank, clothes closet, etc. and Camp Sister Spirit which is the 120-acre recently purchased farm in Ovett, Ms. The Camp Sister Spirit is the one under attack - and the attacks are real. Okay, next the dog. It was a female dog, but not their personal pet. My source had said there was a mob - the "mob" scene was a misplaced retelling of the meeting of some 250 people who had gathered December 6 to organize against Sister Spirit. The Ovett residents and the ministers' remarks about the lesbians and the dangers that they perceived were correctly quoted: "These people can pick up our little girls and take them to this place and do whatever they want to do." Some of the residents led by several fundamental type ministers are pledged to driving the women from the land. AND YES, men have been getting onto the property - there is about 1/2 mile of the property that in unfenced and the solid, tin fencing will cost about $2500. There ARE shots in the night. The Hensons have appealed to the local authorities who have stated, contrary to their oaths of office, to stand with the religious supremacists ministers, and are considering the moral issues above the women's legal rights. The Hensons have invited representatives from the Justice Department (FBI, etc.) to go down and monitor the situation and see that no one is exaggerating. They have been told the FBI is looking into it but have seen no one who identified themselves as from the government. The County supervisors have said they will stand with the moral issue. "The hostility is growing," Wanda said. She also said that their interview on the Oprah show didn't click - that they really didn't get a chance to tell their story. It will be aired Tuesday, December 21. They will, however, be studied by the 20/20 TV show crew from January 2 through the 5th - and the next Jones County (Ovett, Ms) anti-Camp Sister Spirit meeting is scheduled for January 4. Wanda said their attorney is seeking legal means to defuse the situation and that about five different people will probably be sued. The following is an exact quote: Camp Sister Spirit is a feminist education retreat in rural Ovett, Mississippi. Founded by Sister Spirit, Inc., Sister Spirit is a community based, IRS recognized 501(c) (3) organization committed to providing people counseling, information, education, referral, advocacy and meeting space to address social issues." In answer to some questions, they have a 486 IBM computer - obtained before the attacks - and they will be installing an exterior modem. I'll be talking them through how to use it. Contributions are tax deductible. Brenda and Wanda Henson, Sister Spirit Inc., 1806 Curcor Drive, Gulfport, Ms., 39507, telephone 601-344-1411, or Camp Sister Spirit, PO Box 12, Ovett, Ms 39464. They need money, chain saws (to cut trees around the property boundaries), generators, CB radio, hand tools, toiletries/hygiene items, canned food, kitchen equipment for large groups, and a security light system. Women are coming to the land to help protect and some of them don't have the financial means to support themselves. Wanda said she welcomed everyone but they have to have the financial means to support themselves while they are there. "We just don't have the money." The Newsweek article about the Hensons was headlined: MISSISSIPPI BURNING. Perhaps y'll should rent the movie and see that nightmare of intolerance all over again and remember, rural Mississippi is a world unto itself. Don't, please, let any of these corrections take away the horror, the danger, and the potential for terrible tragedy that the misguided folks of Jones County, Mississippi are instigating by placing their personal religious beliefs above the law. This is a civil rights issues. This is a constitutional question. -- irenestuber@delphi.com From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Dec 21 06:56:56 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20951; Tue, 21 Dec 93 06:56:56 GMT Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA20897; Mon, 20 Dec 93 22:55:24 PST Message-Id: <9312210655.AA20897@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: IRENESTUBER@delphi.com Cc: list-managers@greatCircle.com Subject: Re: Sister Spirit - corrections and needs (LONG) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Dec 1993 00:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1993 22:55:22 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk IRENESTUBER@delphi.com writes: # Please, the hostility for Camp Sister Spirit is growing and # the dangers are real ... don't take the following as anything # but straightening out a few quotes. The situation remains critical, # dangerous, and totally wrong for the United States. The # Mississippi religious supremacist would force their views on # everyone else. ... I don't believe this is relevant to the List-Managers mailing list. Please don't post any followups or discussions of this to the List-Managers mailing list. Please refrain from posting anything else like this ti List-Managers in the future. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue Dec 21 16:30:28 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA23066; Tue, 21 Dec 93 16:30:28 GMT Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22761; Tue, 21 Dec 93 07:19:32 PST Received: from uumind.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.3.4.15) via UUCP id AA03256 ; Tue, 21 Dec 93 10:20:34 -0500 Received: by mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 21 Dec 93 10:03:14 -0500 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Received: by knex.via.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 21 Dec 93 09:12:11 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Listmanager command set summary From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.via.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-Id: <0qVwec2w165w@knex.via.mind.org> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 09:07:32 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has someone compiled the commands of various, popular ListManagers (VM LISTSERV, ListProc, MajorDomo etc. etc.) ? Or even a FAQ List on mailing list managers, giving email addresses for getting further info on the software and its command set so that I can compile my own? Thanks. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.via.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|{rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!uumind!knex!gess |<><>| From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Wed Dec 22 01:42:09 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA25019; Wed, 22 Dec 93 01:42:09 GMT Received: from yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA23386; Tue, 21 Dec 93 09:31:18 PST Received: from vangogh.VIS.ColoState.EDU by yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72230; Tue, 21 Dec 1993 10:32:23 -0700 Received: by vangogh.VIS.ColoState.EDU (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22378; Tue, 21 Dec 93 10:32:22 MST From: nate@VIS.ColoState.EDU (CVL staff member Nate Sammons) Message-Id: <9312211732.AA22378@vangogh.VIS.ColoState.EDU> Subject: can I screen out a user? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1993 10:32:20 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 494 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a nice, clean way (other than hacking majordomo) to screen out a message from a particular person? You see, I have this very disruptive person posting to my list.... thanks, -nate -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Nate Sammons nate@VIS.ColoState.Edu (303) 491-1578 | | Colorado State University -- Computer Visualization Laboratory | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sun Dec 26 17:33:18 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA10197; Sun, 26 Dec 93 17:33:18 GMT Received: from LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA08670; Sat, 25 Dec 93 19:37:27 PST Received: from LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU by LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU (PMDF V4.2-10 #2466) id <01H6WRKAPSPS8WYLAZ@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU>; Sat, 25 Dec 1993 20:38:32 MDT Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1993 20:38:31 -0600 (MDT) From: "Alan A. Hodson" Subject: *** MathMagic Info *** To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <01H6WRKAR4YA8WYLAZ@LAGUNA.EPCC.EDU> X-Vms-To: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [ This is only marginally related to List-Managers, so please direct comments and questions to the author, Alan Hodson . -Brent ] Greetings from El Paso, TX. - Below please find information about MathMagic, a problem-solving project directed at K12 students, teachers, administrators and in general, to net users that may want to enrich others with their knowledge or learn from the exchanges. May 1993 be a peaceful year for you all, and may it find you with a renewed commitment towards touching the future by helping to educate our youth. Please forward/post to help disseminate the project. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Hodson MathMagic Foundation alanh@laguna.epcc.edu PO Box 27205 ahodson@tenet.edu El Paso, TX 79926-7205 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is MathMagic? ================== MathMagic, is a K-12 telecommunications project developed in El Paso, TX that provides a strong motivator for students to use computer technology while increasing problem-solving strategies and communications skills. In a nutshell, MathMagic posts challenges into each of four categories (k-3, 4-6, 7-9 and 10-12) to trigger each registered team to pair up with another team and engage in an exchange of problem-solving dialog. When an agreement is reached, one solution is posted for every pair. Has it been done before? ======================== MathMagic has received wide ideological acceptance by hundreds of present FidoNet users, because it addresses most of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics standards. It is now expanding into the Internet. Is this a "first call"? ======================= This first call is aimed at providing information and building an Internet-centered data base with names of K-12 and higher education teachers, librarians, technology directors and computer facilitators, and in general, to seek Net users that are in a position to make the postings available to teams of students. MathMagic's success on FidoNet makes building this project on Internet a logical step. What is needed? =============== This project is for schools who are presently using or shortly plan to use computers with modems. Direct Internet access is desirable (see NET-PROVIDERS file,) but in some areas, a local Bulletin Board System (BBS) or Net user may have to act as a go- between. Please ask about special arrangements. Do participants "meet" each other? ================================== Each registered team is expected to work with a NET TEAM PARTNER (NTP) who may be local, state, national or international. They must discuss solution strategies and agree on the solution they are going to post. A good measure of the success of the project rests on the "grass-roots" exchanges, when teams meet each other and exchange personal/school/city information. How will the Internet be used? ============================== The postings and some team exchanges will be made via a kind of listserv called a MAILING LIST (different commands, same principle.) The wonderful folks of the Geometry Forum at Swarthmore College have made their "majordomo" Mailing List server available to MathMagic, and as a result, registration will be fairly easy. However, most team exchanges are via e-mail. How can someone participate? ============================ There will be two broad categories of participants: REGISTERED and UNREGISTERED. All registered teams will be entitled to full access to all the list's mailings, and will have the ability to "post" any question, comment or reply at any time. UNREGISTERED teams, on the other hand, can receive all mailings and read the exchanges, but will not be able to post directly to the lists. Which are the lists? ==================== Roughly corresponding to U.S. grade equivalency, the list are: (UNREGISTERED) (REGISTERED) mathmagic-k-3-open mathmagic-k-3 mathmagic-4-6-open mathmagic-4-6 mathmagic-7-9-open mathmagic-7-9 mathmagic-10-12-open mathmagic-10-12 Can someone subscribe to all lists? =================================== Again, anyone can subscribe to any/all of the "...-open" lists, but can NOT post messages until fully registered. Is gopher or ftp available? =========================== Anyone can gopher or ftp files from forum.swarthmore.edu. Look for specific instructions below. In addition, educationally-focused groups or sites make want to take advantage of Mathmagic as a newsgroup. Is there a discussion group of benefit to teachers re/ MathMagic? ================================================================= One of the most valuable lessons a teacher learns is when s/he can observe and discuss the student's metacognition. For this purpose, a fifth list, mathmagic-general-open will also be available to schools of education, assorted profs, teachers, supervisors and in general to all interested parties wanting to discuss math learning and the student exchanges observed in these lists. As MathMagic itself develops, CONSTRUC- TIVE suggestions, observations and criticisms, along with any/all pedagogical discussions that may enlighten student/teacher (read old student) development will be welcomed. K-12 direct student input is not solicited in this fifth list. Must registered users participate in all the challenges? ======================================================== Since school calendars and holidays differ the world over, registered participants are not expected to address all challenges. Also, and as strange as it may sound, the "official" language of the postings is standard American English. Overseas participants are encouraged to adapt their colloquialisms (boot, lift, etc.) to ours (trunk, elevator, etc.) What donation is expected for full registration? ================================================ Information about the nominal registration fee is forwarded to each person registering for one of the lists. It is also available under the COSTS-GRANTS file as indicated below. Please note that the registration form calls for the name of a faculty sponsor, and a team name. Each team's name will consist of the sponsor's last name (surname), a color, the school mascot, and city/state/country information: Hodson's Gold Gators/El Paso, TX can end up working with Nahim's Blue Tigers/Tel Aviv, IL. What other "perks" are there for registering? ============================================= All registered users will receive a certificate of participation, incentives and have more privileges than nonregistered users. The world-wide postings of the student's responses also act as power- ful motivators. How does a person subscribe/unsubscribe to MathMagic? ===================================================== All subscriptions (registered and non) begin with a free subscription to one of the "...-open" lists. Send the following e-mail message: TO: majordomo@forum.swarthmore.edu (note majordomo's spelling) subscribe mathmagic-X-Y-open where X-Y is either K-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12 or general. To UNSUBSCRIBE (when a user no longer wants to be part of the Mailing List) send the same message as above, but replace "subscribe" with "unsubscribe". When does an "open" subscription become full registration? ========================================================== After subscribing to any "-open" list a user will receive an acknowledgement and a REGISTRATION FORM that should be completed and returned to the address below. The account will remain UNREGISTERED until all aspects of the form have been received. Who can answer more questions? ============================== Alan Hodson, middle school math teacher with the El Paso ISD is in charge of the Internet component of the project. Write to him at: alanh@laguna.epcc.edu or ahodson@tenet.edu. Carol Hooper, middle school math teacher with Ysleta ISD is in charge of the FidoNet component. Contact her at: cshooper@tenet.edu or Carol.Hooper@f105.n381.z1.fidonet.org What other informational files are available? ============================================= To receive more information on MathMagic and the files available, send e-mail (no "Subject:" needed) to: mail-server@forum.swarthmore.edu send mathmagic/general/INDEX Users can also ftp the MathMagic information files thus: ftp forum.swarthmore.edu 'Username:' anonymous 'Password:' (your e-mail 'name'@) example: alanh@ 'Welcome to the Geometry Forum...' (whole page deleted) 'FORUM.SWARTHMORE.EDU>' cd mathmagic 'FORUM.SWARTHMORE.EDU>' dir (lists all directories) (or ls (for UNIX systems)) "FORUM.SWARTHMORE.EDU>' cd general (or any other direc- tory) Remember, to retrieve or "download" information to your system you must type the 'get filename' (exact spelling). To move up one directory type (at the > prompt) 'cdup'; to log off type 'exit'. (Don't type the ' ' marks) GOPHER access is also available: gopher forum.swarthmore.edu (choose) 1. Forum's Archive/ (choose) 6. MathMagic/ (choose) 5. general.information (or any directory in that area) At the end of each read text (or when you press spacebar ) the footer will prompt to mail it. The user must enter his/her name as given by the system (example: alanh) - the mailer "knows" the "@..." part.) To move up a directory type 'u' and to end the gopher exchange type 'q' and confirm quit. Some of the files that can be requested are: registration-form sample-challenges sample-responses suggested-approaches fidonet-info fidonet-nodes mathmagic-faq (this list) net-providers ntcm-standards cost-grants and others Are user-made "challenge" submissions accepted? ================================================= "Adult" involvement is an integral component of this project. Users with thought-provoking (ideally open-ended) word problems are encouraged to make their contributions available to MathMagic. The problem-submissions guide can be obtained as outlined above. Can MathMagic "make a difference"? ================================== MathMagic Foundation is a non-profit organization for the development and implementation of innovative methods and technology to encourage youngsters to get involved in articulating math problems. To the extent that teacher-training programs and teachers in the field get involved, master and incorporate telecommunication opportunities like this project, programs like MathMagic can contribute significantly towards achieving NCTM standards and truly "literate" students. MathMagic also attempts to involve concerned professionals in solving some of our students weaknesses by making "challenge" contributions and engaging in the project's exchanges. Caveat Emptor (a personal note) ============= As worthy an endeavor as MathMagic may seem, it is "one more" time consuming commitment to a full-time job, the local board of a professional organization (AFT) and the usual daily distractions such as band boosters student accounts and the like. Presently MathMagic is NOT receiving any grants or stipends to allow for "extra" time to be dedicated to the project. Hopefully this will change in the near future. Please don't expect IMMEDIATE service - be ready to match your professional commitment to finding viable alternatives to age old concerns with a good dose of patience! At least at the beginning...Ironic how we may be able to communicate across the world instantly, but still be slaves of our time pieces! Happy (thought-provoking) Computing! Alan A. Hodson alanh@laguna.epcc.edu December 1993 ***************************************************************** PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!!! Do not post your replies to this list - Use the e-mail addresses provided above. Thanks ***************************************************************** From List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Wed Dec 29 21:39:00 1993 Return-Path: Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22767; Wed, 29 Dec 93 21:39:00 GMT Received: from vanbc.wimsey.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AA22760; Wed, 29 Dec 93 13:38:50 PST Received: from vsystem by vanbc.wimsey.com with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0pF8cc-0000iuC; Wed, 29 Dec 93 13:40 PST Received: by vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 29 Dec 93 12:41:21 PST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Address normalization for list subscribers From: rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (Rick Vandenberg) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 29 Dec 93 12:06:59 PST Organization: Vandenberg Systems Research, Vancouver BC Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I doubt that "normalization" is the correct word, but here's my problem: I'm looking for a method to reduce an address to its simplest form, eliminating extraneous path routing. I know how to do it, for the most part, but I'm wondering how other list managers handle addresses like this: rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca (fine, this my real address) vsystem!rick@wimsey.com (I also consider this correct, as vsystem has a UUCP connection to wimsey) These are the problem address formats: anagld!uunet!vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca!rick vanbc!vsystem!rick@apple.com If I subscribed to one of your lists, and the address had been mangled with bang paths, would you use the address as is, or is there some magic algorithm or mailer function that can convert it back to the form user@domain? I know that mailers with access to MX records and UUCP maps can figure out where to send the mail; that's not the problem. My software has the ability to restrict list postings and provide access to files, based on the user's address. If I can't resolve the addresses down to a simpler form, it pretty much kills the usefulness of these features. Unfortunately, as a UUCP site, I don't have have access to MX records and UUCP maps. Any ideas? Thanks.... Rick -- Rick Vandenberg rick@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca Vandenberg Systems Research For more information about V-MailServer 204 - 2255 West 5th Ave. send a blank e-mail to Vancouver, BC V6K 4K1 vmail-info-request@vsystem.wimsey.bc.ca