From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 1 00:08:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA16674; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 00:08:50 GMT Received: from holonet.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA16663; Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:08:08 -0800 Received: from localhost (uucp@localhost) by holonet.net id QAA25300; Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:06:59 -0800 Received: by richcon.com (wcUUCP 3.90) id N26600W Tue, 1 Mar 1994 00:00:12 GMT From: tom.dykers@richcon.com (TOM DYKERS) Subject: How to create a list Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 15:29:02 GMT Message-Id: <940228190012938@richcon.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to find out how to create a mailing list via Internet. Can someone please point me in the right direction? Thank you very much. tom.dykers@richcon.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 1 04:57:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id EAA17556; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 04:57:32 GMT Received: from uu.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA17550; Mon, 28 Feb 1994 20:57:24 -0800 Received: by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA20366 for ; Mon, 28 Feb 94 23:53:56 -0500 Received: from cc:Mail by sweets.sweetspub.com id AA762508089 Mon, 28 Feb 94 23:48:09 Date: Mon, 28 Feb 94 23:48:09 From: "Remus, Pete" Message-Id: <9401287625.AA762508089@sweets.sweetspub.com> To: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Subject: starting a list Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to manage a mailing list from my office at work; we use cc:Mail Link to UUCP to pick-up and deliver our Internet mail from our sevice provider PSI. Is there any way to manage and automate a mailing list using cc:Mail? PSI was little or no help. Also, I have sent a message to cc:Mail asking them the same questions, but they have not sent me a reply. Sure would appreciate any help you may be able to give. Pete From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 2 01:21:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA24000; Wed, 2 Mar 1994 01:21:15 GMT Received: from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA23994; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 17:21:00 -0800 Received: from VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU by vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3097; Tue, 01 Mar 94 19:24:32 CST Received: from ILSTU (NJE origin SYSMWTR@ILSTU) by VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 4325; Tue, 1 Mar 1994 19:24:32 -0600 FROM: "MIKE TOMLIANOVICH" SUBJECT: EMAIL systems list service DATE: 01 MAR 1994 19:23 -00 MESSAGE-ID: <342253 > TO: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anybody know of a list service that deals specifically about the deployment of an EMAIL system for a company with the management and service expansion of same? Thanks in advance. From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 3 18:21:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA03611; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:21:43 GMT Received: from eros.britain.eu.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA03605; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 10:21:25 -0800 Received: from andersen.co.uk by eros.britain.eu.net with UUCP id ; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:08:19 +0000 Received: by andersen.co.uk (4.1/sp-0.1) id AA03670; Thu, 3 Mar 94 16:37:35 GMT Newsgroups: mail.list-managers-digest Path: sdpage From: sdpage@andersen.co.uk (Stephen Page) Subject: Re: A flood from com.aol Message-Id: <1994Mar3.163731.3623@andersen.co.uk> Organization: Andersen Consulting (UK Practice) References: <9402120910.AA22611@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Distribution: local Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 16:37:31 GMT Lines: 9 Apparently-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I've tried mailing the postmaster, twice, but had no reply. A followup to our discussion on aol.com a few weeks ago. My _third_ note to postmaster@aol.com resulted in action; it turns out that information on mailing lists is maintained by listmaster@aol.com, who has been away for some weeks. The latter sent me a reply and a form to fill in. The original information had been culled from the list-of-lists. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 01:15:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA05331; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 01:15:33 GMT Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA05321; Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:15:24 -0800 From: pmdatropos@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA13067; Thu, 3 Mar 94 20:15:56 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Message-Id: <9403032015.tn225066@aol.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 03 Mar 94 20:15:55 EST Subject: Re: A flood from com.aol Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk sdpage@andersen.co.uk (Stephen Page) writes: >>I've tried mailing the postmaster, twice, but had no reply. >A followup to our discussion on aol.com a few weeks ago. >My _third_ note to postmaster@aol.com resulted in action; it turns out that >information on mailing lists is maintained by listmaster@aol.com, who has >been away for some weeks. The latter sent me a reply and a form to fill in. >The original information had been culled from the list-of-lists. I am the person in charge up updating the America Online mailing list database (ListMaster@aol.com is an account used to help classify my incoming mail), effective January 1994. I apologize for not having taken part in this mailing list/newsgroup earlier, but I was not aware of its existence (my own lists are run on Revised LISTSERV machines, which have their own list-owners forum). If you have experienced problems with our users, have updated information on your mailing list, would like to receive a copy of our entry for a mailing list you run or co-manage or have other issues regarding America Online which you need to discuss, please send the e-mail to me. You can address requests which deal specifically with the mailing list database contents to ListMaster@aol.com as well. Although I cannot take specific responsibility for problems which occurred before I took this post, I do hope that my presence in this forum (and elsewhere) demonstrates my interest in maintaining a positive relationship with the Internet as a whole. Thank you. Sincerely, __ David B. O'Donnell (PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ System Administrator, America Online, Inc. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 19:00:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA11481; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 19:00:02 GMT Received: from SUVM.SYR.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA11475; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 10:59:47 -0800 Received: from socal.syr.edu by SUVM.SYR.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 04 Mar 94 13:32:13 LCL Received: by socal.syr.edu (5.0/Spike-2.0) id AA02911; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:35:36 +0500 Message-Id: <9403041835.AA02911@socal.syr.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Q:Size of Lists Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 13:35:34 -0500 From: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" content-length: 735 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here at Syracuse University we're going to be 'turning the water off' for our IBM 3090 next year. One of the things that this machine does is to host many LISTs. One of these are very large (i.e., 150,000 messages/day/list sent to 2,000 subscribers). I am very curious to learn how big (subscribers and daily activity) such lists have become on UNIX platforms. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Fordyce, Ph.D. wfordyce@mailbox.syr.edu Manager of UNIX Systems wfordyce@syr.edu Computing Services Syracuse University, Syracuse NY 13244-1260 315-443-2551 --------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 19:15:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA11660; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 19:15:40 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA11653; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 11:15:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199403041915.LAA11653@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 04 Mar 1994 13:35:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 11:15:31 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" writes: # Here at Syracuse University we're going to be 'turning the water off' # for our IBM 3090 next year. One of the things that this machine does # is to host many LISTs. One of these are very large (i.e., 150,000 # messages/day/list sent to 2,000 subscribers). # # I am very curious to learn how big (subscribers and daily activity) # such lists have become on UNIX platforms. Firewalls@GreatCircle.COM is about 1400 subscribers. On a busy day, we might handle 20 or 30 messages to the list. Mycroft.GreatCircle.COM is a Sun 3/60 (about 3 MIPS) with a 9.6 kb/s SLIP connection to the Internet. Messages/day is kind of a misleading number in my case. Because I have such a narrow channel to the Internet, I forward all outgoing mail to UUNET for delivery, rather than trying to deliver it myself. That way, a posting to Firewalls goes out as 1 message to UUNET with 1400 recipients, instead of as 1400 messages to 1 recipient each on individual hosts (or whatever it breaks down to; Sendmail is smart enough to sort and merge messages that are all going to the same host). As for total message volume, you should ask some of the service providers what they're seeing. relay1.uu.net and relay2.uu.net are the major mail forwarders at UUNET, and I seem to recall that they're each handling something like a half million messages per day at this point. You might also ask some of the folks who run gateways for large corporations what their daily volume is. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 20:27:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA12037; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:27:47 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA12029; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:27:18 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id PAA28428; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:19:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199403042019.PAA28428@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brent Chapman cc: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" , list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 1994 11:15:31 PST." <199403041915.LAA11653@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 15:19:58 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Messages/day is kind of a misleading number in my case. Because I > have such a narrow channel to the Internet, I forward all outgoing > mail to UUNET for delivery, rather than trying to deliver it myself. > That way, a posting to Firewalls goes out as 1 message to UUNET with > 1400 recipients, instead of as 1400 messages to 1 recipient each on > individual hosts (or whatever it breaks down to; Sendmail is smart > enough to sort and merge messages that are all going to the same > host). Interesting side note re limitations of that approach: I maintain a piece of code called na-net, which (among other functions) distributes mail to (currently) over 3800 numerical algebra software heads scattered around the world. My first implementation simply put all of the subscribers in a single envelope and handed it to sendmail via SMTP. The problem was, it could take anywhere between 16 hours and two days to get a message out. If too many hosts were unreachable (requiring a timeout), then those hosts would get in the way of others' mail. Now na-net sorts the message by domain name (reversed so names from the same domain sort together), and splits the big envelope up into several smaller envelopes with no more than 16 different recipient address domains in any envelope. (The number 16 was derived by taking a worst-case delay time of 8 hours to attempt to deliver the message to everyone, and dividing it by an assumed worst-case delay time of 30 minutes per failed attempt.) It now typically takes around an hour to attempt to deliver it to everyone. Of course, this could be improved on by sorting the addresses by mail exchanger rather than by domain, or by changing sendmail to be able to perform multiple deliveries from a single envelope in parallel. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 20:33:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA12118; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:33:55 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA12111; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:33:45 -0800 Message-Id: <199403042033.MAA12111@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Keith Moore cc: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 04 Mar 1994 15:19:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 12:33:42 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: # Now na-net sorts the message by domain name (reversed so names from the same # domain sort together), and splits the big envelope up into several smaller # envelopes with no more than 16 different recipient address domains in any # envelope. (The number 16 was derived by taking a worst-case delay time of 8 # hours to attempt to deliver the message to everyone, and dividing it by an # assumed worst-case delay time of 30 minutes per failed attempt.) # # Of course, this could be improved on by sorting the addresses by mail # exchanger rather than by domain, or by changing sendmail to be able to # perform multiple deliveries from a single envelope in parallel. I believe that code to do this sort of thing automatically was one of the major enhancements of the new (V8) release of Sendmail. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 20:52:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA12230; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:52:37 GMT Received: from dec4ie.ieunet.ie by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA12224; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 12:52:29 -0800 Received: from sadhbh.scrg.cs.tcd.ie by dec4ie.ieunet.ie SMTP (Ethernet) id aa17984; 4 Mar 94 20:54 GMT Received: by sadhbh.scrg.cs.tcd.ie (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0pcgsa-00058BC; Fri, 4 Mar 94 20:53 WET Message-Id: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 20:53 WET From: "Outatime......." To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Listserv Inquiry? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. I would like to setup a listserv automatic mailer. It would have to accept a database of names I already have, and be able to accept more and remove old ones. If you have any ideas on this please mail me. BTW This is for a Magazine called the Cd-Rom updater. Aaron. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 13:57:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA12816; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 21:54:28 GMT Received: from thud.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA12797; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:53:58 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by thud.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (5.61+IDA+UTK-930922/2.7c-UTK) id AA29935; Fri, 4 Mar 94 16:56:02 -0500 Message-Id: <9403042156.AA29935@thud.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brent Chapman Cc: Keith Moore , "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 1994 12:33:42 PST." <199403042033.MAA12111@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 16:56:01 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I believe that code to do this sort of thing automatically was one of > the major enhancements of the new (V8) release of Sendmail. The before-and-after figures (several days vs. one hour) were both using sendmail 8.6.4. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 14:07:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA12828; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 21:54:52 GMT Received: from mgc.mentorg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA12813; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 13:54:24 -0800 Received: from warren.mentorg.com by mgc.mentorg.com with SMTP (16.6/15.5+MGC-TD 2.20) id AA16311; Fri, 4 Mar 94 13:56:38 -0800 Received: from worf (worf.warren.mentorg.com) by Warren.MENTORG.COM with SMTP id AA15194 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:56:34 -0500 Received: by worf (5.0/SMI-4.0) id AA01964; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:56:44 +0500 From: "Tom Limoncelli" Message-Id: <9403041656.ZM1962@worf> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:56:43 -0500 X-Face: *0$,bn:Ak@/SnHYUC7xW=P5jNmcs_C?}BQz?`_"cpCQ(W#[_w70]s5.fAgo1}{12`k4dE2h=z/rBMcsOxg{!h"b8>I__^3!05)sVC3-1*Sg1*q~3FdQk;,5^I(HFE,{R%e!XBJf+:;Ry X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.0.0 15dec93) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 249 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To clarify what Brent said: The issue isn't the mailing list manager, it's the mail transport. If you don't have sendmail 8.x.x you are going to have problems with volume. Get the latest sendmail and install it and you won't have problems. Tom From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 14:47:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id WAA13061; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:38:56 GMT Received: from cgl.ucsf.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA13048; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:38:41 -0800 Received: from ccnext.ucsf.edu by cgl.ucsf.EDU (8.6.5/GSC4.24) id OAA12089 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:41:20 -0800 Received: by ccnext.ucsf.edu (NX5.67d/NeXT-1.0) id AA08998; Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:41:07 -0800 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 14:41:07 -0800 From: owner@ccnext.ucsf.edu (Richard Karpinski) Message-Id: <9403042241.AA08998@ccnext.ucsf.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: binaries and installation notes Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had a bunch of problems getting my list management software to work at all, let alone correctly. It would have helped me to have access to the full directory structure, permissions, and configuration files of some working site. One with the same software and same operating system would have been even better. I'll show you mine, if you show me yours. I would be inclined to put these into a gopher menu or a WWW document, connected to related installs at the same and other sites. I'd even take a script of the install process and spend an hour or two annotating it for the enlightenment of myself and any others who care to look. The cost of sharing is little more than a few dimes worth of disk space, but I'd wager it would save me hours on each new install. Is anybody doing something like this? Dick dick@itsa.ucsf.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 4 15:17:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA13389; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 23:15:18 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA13380; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:15:05 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (8.6.4/2.8c-UTK) id SAA28538; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:08:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199403042308.SAA28538@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: "Tom Limoncelli" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 04 Mar 1994 16:56:43 EST." <9403041656.ZM1962@worf> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 18:08:14 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > To clarify what Brent said: > > The issue isn't the mailing list manager, it's the mail > transport. If you don't have sendmail 8.x.x you are > going to have problems with volume. Get the latest > sendmail and install it and you won't have problems. And to clarify what I said: Even if sendmail 8 sorts recipients by mail exchanger and delivers the message to all recipients at any mail exchanger in a single SMTP transaction, it still only does one SMTP connection attempt at a time, per envelope. So splitting the message up across several envelopes lets sendmail deliver them in parallel. I implemented all of this stuff long after I had installed sendmail 8, because even with sendmail 8 the delivery still wasn't fast enough. Keith From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 00:12:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA13519; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 00:12:12 GMT Received: from gateway.Stoner.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA13513; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:11:54 -0800 Received: from uhura1.Stoner.COM (uhura1.Stoner.COM [198.64.192.11]) by gateway.Stoner.COM (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA10827 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:58:58 -0800 Received: from crusher.Stoner.COM (crusher.Stoner.COM [198.64.192.28]) by uhura1.Stoner.COM (8.6.5/8.6.4) with ESMTP id SAA28546 for ; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:10:06 -0600 From: "A. Bryan Curnutt" Received: from localhost (bryan@localhost) by crusher.Stoner.COM (8.6.5/8.6.5) id SAA03355 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:11:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199403050011.SAA03355@crusher.Stoner.COM> Subject: Re: binaries and installation notes To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:11:02 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9403042241.AA08998@ccnext.ucsf.edu> from "Richard Karpinski" at Mar 4, 94 02:41:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 990 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Richard Karpinski writes: > > I had a bunch of problems getting my list management software to > work at all, let alone correctly. It would have helped me to > have access to the full directory structure, permissions, and > configuration files of some working site. One with the same > software and same operating system would have been even better. For me, getting majordomo to work under SunOS was trivial, because the documentation is quite clear and the software isn't difficult to understand or use. (Thanks, Brent!) What list management software were you using? Perhaps it would be appropriate to write up better installation documentation -- at least an example of what a working installation looks like -- now that you know how to get yours working, and ask the software author(s) to include your document in the next release. -- Bryan Curnutt Stoner Associates, Inc. bryan.curnutt@stoner.com (713)626-9568 voice (713)622-7832 fax From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 06:03:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA15398; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 06:03:06 GMT Received: from MIT.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id WAA15392; Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:02:58 -0800 From: pshuang@MIT.EDU Received: from NINJA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA25481; Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:05:40 EST Received: by ninja.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA11819; Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:05:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:05:29 -0500 Message-Id: <9403050605.AA11819@ninja.MIT.EDU> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce"'s message of Fri, 04 Mar 1994 13:35:34 -0500 <9403041835.AA02911@socal.syr.edu> Subject: Q:Size of Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wayne Fordyce asks: > Here at Syracuse University we're going to be 'turning the water off' > for our IBM 3090 next year. One of the things that this machine does > is to host many LISTs. One of these are very large (i.e., 150,000 > messages/day/list sent to 2,000 subscribers). > > I am very curious to learn how big (subscribers and daily activity) > such lists have become on UNIX platforms. The main MIT mail hubs, MIT.EDU and ATHENA.MIT.EDU, collectively deliver about 800,000 pieces of email per week at this point in time. However, I suspect that the majority of such deliveries are being made to about half a dozen local POP servers from which most users pick up their email, so some of the issues about rapid deliveries to many domains don't apply as much. They are both DECstation 5000/25 machines, which are definitely *NOT* the the fastest throughput UNIX workstations available (they're really client workstations being pressed into service as servers, if I understand correctly). While they're not being heavily over-stressed at this level of usage, there is a noticeable lag during the middle of the day for mail deliveries -- at off-peak times, I get notifications that my carbon-copy to myself was delivered about 5-10 seconds after I send the message; at peak times, it may take a few minutes to half an hour. --- Yours in Leadership, Friendship, and Service, Ping Huang (INTERNET: pshuang@mit.edu), probably speaking for himself (Disclaimer: I no longer work for any part of MIT I/S and do not express the official opinion of MIT I/S DCNS.) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 12:58:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA16738; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 12:58:37 GMT Received: from relay1.oleane.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id EAA16732; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 04:58:28 -0800 Received: from wolf.oleane.net (wolf.oleane.net [194.2.5.2]) by relay1.oleane.net (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA27861 for ; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 14:01:05 +0100 Message-Id: <199403051301.OAA27861@relay1.oleane.net> X-Sender: wolf@ns.oleane.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 05 Mar 1994 13:52:26 +0000 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: wolf@oleane.net (Christophe Wolfhugel) Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists X-Mailer: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sendmail 8 will help in distributing somewhat faster messages to their recipients thanks to the MX piggybacking. But like told by Keith Moore, with hundreds or thousands of recipients, the importance of this is relatively small. The "Distribute" RFC is worth reading and could easily be turned into something usable in the Internet: an agreement between a large number of sites on several continents, or countries to setup relaying like explained in the RFC (sorry I don't have the number on line, check after 1300). That would be a global gain, with the drawback of loosing the MX functionnality. Say I offer my node as a relay for "fr" for mailing-lists, others do for their top-level domains, and the process of exploding lists can resume for the original site to one SMTP transaction per top-level domain. Each top-level relay doing an additionnal redistribution to the country's subscribers. Now is there a both technical and political way of setting up a network of "cooperative mailing lists exploders" around the Internet. That's another question. The current method used by Keith (no more than 16 recipients per Sendmail process which is started) has one major drawback to me: not all systems can afford to cut a 1600 recipients list into a 100 simultaneous Sendmail processes. From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 14:59:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA16951; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 14:59:32 GMT Received: from postoffice.mail.cornell.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA16945; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 06:59:21 -0800 Received: from TRAVELERS.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU by postoffice.mail.cornell.edu with SMTP id AA13638 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 5 Mar 1994 10:01:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 09:58:27 -0500 (EST) From: Michael S Shappe Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists To: Keith Moore Cc: Tom Limoncelli , list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199403042308.SAA28538@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just a quick note. While Sendmail 8 is far better supported, I find ZMailer (not Z-Mail, which is a mail USER agent) to be a superior MTA for use with mailing-list managers. Why? Because it has entirely separate delivery queues per-site, with concurrent connection attempts (how many is admin-configurable). Take a look. The 'canonical' source is available on ftp.cs.utoronto.ca. There is a modified version available with some bugs fixed on nic.funet.fi. The author is supposedly working new release as well. Finally, there is a mailing list, zmailer@cs.utoronto.ca. Send to zmailer-request to get on. From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 17:22:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA17221; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 17:22:09 GMT Received: from mail.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA17215; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 09:21:59 -0800 Received: from localhost by mail.netcom.com (8.6.4/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id JAA28098; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 09:25:37 -0800 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 09:23:15 -0800 (PST) From: dennis wilson Subject: Re: binaries and installation notes To: Richard Karpinski cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9403042241.AA08998@ccnext.ucsf.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 4 Mar 1994, Richard Karpinski wrote: > I had a bunch of problems getting my list management software to > work at all, let alone correctly. It would have helped me to > have access to the full directory structure, permissions, and > configuration files of some working site. One with the same > software and same operating system would have been even better. > > I'll show you mine, if you show me yours. > > I would be inclined to put these into a gopher menu or a WWW > document, connected to related installs at the same and other > sites. I'd even take a script of the install process and spend > an hour or two annotating it for the enlightenment of myself > and any others who care to look. I'd also care to look! / wilsond@netcom.com > > The cost of sharing is little more than a few dimes worth of > disk space, but I'd wager it would save me hours on each new > install. Is anybody doing something like this? > > Dick > > dick@itsa.ucsf.edu > From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 5 23:04:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA18369; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 23:04:47 GMT Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA18363; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 15:04:38 -0800 Received: by utu.fi id <165567-1>; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 01:06:57 +0200 Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists From: Matti Aarnio To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 01:06:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <199403050910.BAA16005@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> from "List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Mar 5, 94 11:10:06 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <94Mar6.010657eet.165567-1@utu.fi> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (commenting on Digested version) > From: "Dr. Wayne E. Fordyce" > > Here at Syracuse University we're going to be 'turning the water off' > for our IBM 3090 next year. One of the things that this machine does > is to host many LISTs. One of these are very large (i.e., 150,000 > messages/day/list sent to 2,000 subscribers). > > I am very curious to learn how big (subscribers and daily activity) > such lists have become on UNIX platforms. Like people have noted, the problem is not on number of recipients per se, but on how they are routed. The Revised LISTSERV does things by STATIC ROUTES, therefore it can do things quickly. It also has a thing called 'distribute protocol', which could be done in SMTP too, if one just can create smart enough routing files... I host a couple of large lists at nic.funet.fi (largest is mere 506 recipients), and I had some problems with thruput, until I defined static routes for large subsets of those addresses. There are 10-20 people from each site, that have anybody subscribed at all.. For email routing/transport I use multiprocess mailer, Zmailer, from U of Toronto, with a bunch of my own patches so that list expansion processing happens entirely in the mailer, and no message is ever routed thru some arbitary filter (though maybe I need to add that too -- a filter which yields either recipient addresses, or listowner's address if message looks like an error message..) Number of messages ? Last week was 16800 msgs, with total of 46500 recipients. That large list had 12 messages, and lists of 100 or more recipients had in total of 95 messages. (email volume was circa 600 MB, mostly on single recipient addresses, as that system has also a files-via-email server in it..) Oh yes, it seems it is possible to continue to run the Revised LISTSERV on UNIX platforms too, and there even exists a decently behaving (and free source code! -- support may cost, though) BITNET-II software for UNIXes. R-LISTSERV is L-Soft's business, and FUNETNJE is my hobby project which is now of decent beta quality. (It beats UREP, and JNET in quality, and capabilities, though :) ) > Wayne Fordyce, Ph.D. wfordyce@mailbox.syr.edu > Manager of UNIX Systems wfordyce@syr.edu > Computing Services > Syracuse University, Syracuse NY 13244-1260 315-443-2551 /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 6 00:41:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA18906; Sun, 6 Mar 1994 00:41:33 GMT Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA18900; Sat, 5 Mar 1994 16:41:26 -0800 From: Ben.Goren@asu.edu Received: from Tux.Music.ASU.Edu by Tux.Music.ASU.Edu (5.64/A/UX-3.00) id AA04016; Sat, 5 Mar 94 17:44:48 MST Message-Id: <9403060044.AA04016@Tux.Music.ASU.Edu> X-Sender: ben@localhost Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 17:44:52 -0700 To: Matti Aarnio , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:06 AM 3/6/94 +0200, Matti Aarnio wrote: >[. . .] and there even exists a decently >behaving (and free source code! -- support may cost, though) >BITNET-II software for UNIXes. Where?! Heck, if it's free, why not be on both BITNet and the Internet? > /Matti Aarnio > b& ---- Ben Goren Protect your privacy; oppose Clipper. Write to me for info. Arizona State University School of Music Internet: Ben.Goren@asu.edu BITNet: BenGoren AT ASU From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 7 08:28:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA25130; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:28:24 GMT Received: from castor.cc.utu.fi by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA25124; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 00:28:14 -0800 Received: by utu.fi id <165571-1>; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:30:45 +0200 Subject: Re: BITNET-II on UNIXes.. From: Matti Aarnio To: Ben.Goren@asu.edu Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:30:34 +0200 Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9403060044.AA04016@Tux.Music.ASU.Edu> from "Ben.Goren@asu.edu" at Mar 6, 94 02:44:52 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message-Id: <94Mar7.103045eet.165571-1@utu.fi> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ok, I should have guessed it was a bit too delicious bit .. > At 1:06 AM 3/6/94 +0200, Matti Aarnio wrote: > >[. . .] and there even exists a decently > >behaving (and free source code! -- support may cost, though) > >BITNET-II software for UNIXes. > > Where?! Heck, if it's free, why not be on both BITNet and the Internet? Original edition is HUJI-NJE by Yehavi Bourvine, and the FUNET-NJE is seriously hacked edition of it, which can now handle about everything your average MVS system can throw at it (VM/SPs and buggy UREPs/JNETs were easy...), and on most cases it behaves like a VM/SP RSCSv2/3. Only interface to the network at the moment is VMNET protocol (VMNET/TCP). ftp.funet.fi:/pub/unix/networking/bitnet/funetnje-.tar.gz ftp.funet.fi:/pub/unix/networking/bitnet/hujinje-original-930913.tar.gz You really need only the first one. The code is mostly late beta - I do production with it - but full documentation is still somewhat missing. There are manpages, but full TeXinfo document is just started.. Heck, it is a hobby project :) Machines where it has been compiled and tested are: - Sun4 SunOS 4.1.3 (cc, and gcc) - Linux - Convex C3480 ConvexOS 10.2 there is even some support for - IBM AIX - ISC SysVr3 on 386/486 There are documents on how to hook it up on Zmailer, and on Smail 3.x, but how to do it to sendmail is still an open issue (some work on it is done by mr. ukkonen@csc.fi, but it is far from finished..) FYI: I do push email thru BITNET to several countries which have poor Internet connectivity (or saturated lines..) > b& > ---- > Ben Goren > Arizona State University School of Music > Internet: Ben.Goren@asu.edu > BITNet: BenGoren AT ASU /Matti Aarnio From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 7 08:38:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA25177; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 08:38:32 GMT Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA25171; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 00:38:26 -0800 Received: from solar.org by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id AAA22612; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 00:07:20 -0800 Received: by solar.org (wcUUCP 3.90B) id N39700W Mon, 7 Mar 1994 06:58:26 GMT From: doug.evans@solar.org (Doug Evans) Subject: Listservers? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 14:30:00 GMT Message-Id: <9403062358267528@solar.org> Organization: The Solar System BBS 714-837-9677 6.5gig To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a small but growing list of people, interested in Qabalah. Most of us operate through BBS', from PC's. Is there LISTSERV software available, that will operate on a DOS machine? Thanks, Doug Evans * QMPro 1.51 * MSI HQ! BBS * 805-395-0650 Home of WILDCAT! BBS From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 7 17:49:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA27634; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 17:49:39 GMT Received: from mgc.mentorg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA27628; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:48:47 -0800 Received: from warren.mentorg.com by mgc.mentorg.com with SMTP (16.6/15.5+MGC-TD 2.20) id AA00847; Mon, 7 Mar 94 08:09:24 -0800 Received: by Warren.MENTORG.COM id AA04724 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:26:13 -0500 From: Tom Limoncelli Message-Id: <199403071426.AA04724@Warren.MENTORG.COM> Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists To: mss1@cornell.edu (Michael S Shappe) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:26:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Michael S Shappe" at Mar 5, 94 09:58:27 am Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 820 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Just a quick note. While Sendmail 8 is far better supported, I find > ZMailer (not Z-Mail, which is a mail USER agent) to be a superior MTA for > use with mailing-list managers. Why? Because it has entirely separate > delivery queues per-site, with concurrent connection attempts (how many is > admin-configurable). How concurrent is concurrent? Sendmail 8.x has connection caching (it can leave the last x connections open so that it isn't continually re-opening those connections). Does zmailer fork off many processes to do simultanious sends? Tom -- Tom Limoncelli -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work) -- tal@plts.org (play) "Psst! Hey, Anthony! Y'know what I | Disclaimer: I do not like about existing?" "Uh... uh... what?" | speak for Mentor Graphics. "Possessing a physical extension." -TSA | From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 7 18:17:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA28000; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 18:17:24 GMT Received: from postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA27994; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 10:17:13 -0800 Received: from uncle-mikey.cit.cornell.edu (UNCLE-MIKEY.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.69.173]) by postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.5/8.6.5) with SMTP id NAA16893; Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:19:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199403071819.NAA16893@postoffice3.mail.cornell.edu> X-Sender: mss1@po3.mail.cornell.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 13:19:44 -0500 To: Tom Limoncelli From: mss1@cornell.edu (Michael S. Shappe) Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >How concurrent is concurrent? Sendmail 8.x has connection >caching (it can leave the last x connections open so that >it isn't continually re-opening those connections). Does >zmailer fork off many processes to do simultanious sends? Yup. The maximum number of concurrent connections is admin-controlable on a system-wide, per channel and per host basis. So, for example, you can say, "I never want more than 50 channels open at a time [local deliveries count]; I never want more than 25 outbound SMTP connections; and no more than five of those can be fore foobar.foo.com". Just as a f'rinstancce. -- Michael Scott Shappe CIT Collaboration Systems PEM/RIPEM public key available upon request. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 8 19:47:55 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA05366; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 19:47:55 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA05358; Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:47:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199403081947.LAA05358@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers Subject: Most clueless subscriber... Date: Tue, 08 Mar 1994 11:47:49 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Names changed to protect the guilty... By the way, keep in mind that Majordomo is a mailing list package and that Majordomo-Users is a list for discussing the use of that package... -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 ------- Forwarded Message From: user@site.edu (Joe User) Message-Id: <9403081542.AA00475@site.edu> Subject: Please subscribe To: majordomo-users-owner@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 10:42:38 EST subscribe majordomo-users Joe User And incase this isn't an automated list: Hello. I would like to be added to the majordomo list. Thank you. Joe user@site.edu Site University Computer Services ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 9 10:21:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA10840; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 18:12:28 GMT Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA10834; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 10:12:19 -0800 Received: from solar.org by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id FAA12573; Wed, 9 Mar 1994 05:49:49 -0800 Received: by solar.org (wcUUCP 3.90B) id N01600W Wed, 9 Mar 1994 12:39:52 GMT From: doug.evans@solar.org (Doug Evans) Subject: Listservers? Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 02:25:00 GMT Message-Id: <9403090539527782@solar.org> Organization: The Solar System BBS 714-837-9677 6.5gig To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To: list-managers@greatcircle.com I have a small but growing list of people, interested in Qabalah. Most of us operate through BBS', from PC's. Is there LISTSERV software available, that will operate on a DOS machine? Thanks, Doug Evans * QMPro 1.51 * MSI HQ! BBS * 805-395-0650 Home of WILDCAT! BBS From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 10 17:57:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA17035; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 17:57:12 GMT Received: from mail.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA17029; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 09:57:05 -0800 Received: from localhost by mail.netcom.com (8.6.4/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id KAA19099; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:00:45 -0800 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 10:00:45 -0800 From: martin@netcom.com (Martin L.W. Hall) Message-Id: <199403101800.KAA19099@mail.netcom.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: distribute Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone explain to me the use of 'distribute' in maintaining a list? What does it gain you? ----Martin---- Martin L.W. Hall, M.S. Cyb.Sys. Moderator: SysVal-L@netcom.com martin@netcom.com mxh@autodesk.com martinhall@aol.com @Hull: M.L.Hall@msd.hull.ac.uk MCI: mlwhall CServe: 70751,3575 Office: 2860 Pine Street, Napa, CA 94558-5829 (707) 257-8158 Fax (707) 257-8318 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 10 19:22:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA17422; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 19:22:11 GMT Received: from k2 by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA17416; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 11:22:04 -0800 Received: from ccmail.avery.com by k2 with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0peqCJ-0001BlC; Thu, 10 Mar 94 11:15 PST Received: from ccMail by ccmail.avery.com id AA763327300 Thu, 10 Mar 94 11:21:40 PST Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 11:21:40 PST From: "stanley" Encoding: 951 Text Message-Id: <9402107633.AA763327300@ccmail.avery.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Beginner's question: How do I set up a listserv on a PC? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to assist a small professional association to set up a listserv on the Internet so that the various members (worldwide) can communicate on common topics. Wouldn't expect a huge volume -- maybe ultimately a couple hundred members with relatively light traffic. The association headquarters has a Novell LAN and my only thought at this point is to run UNIX on a dedicated PC and connect through an access provider. I am totally ignorant on the various software that would be required. Any suggestions on where to start? I am looking for how-to instructions, advice on how to begin, pitfalls and advice, and perhaps any consultants in the Washington DC area. Thanks! Dale Stanley Avery Dennison Avery Research Center 2900 Bradley Street Pasadena CA 91107-1599 (818) 398-2579 FAX (818) 398-2553 Internet: STANLEY@AVERY.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 10 20:07:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA17648; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 20:07:21 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id MAA17642; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 12:07:09 -0800 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu with SMTP id <24167>; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:09:23 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists In-reply-to: wolf's message of Sat, 05 Mar 1994 08:52:26 -0500. <199403051301.OAA27861@relay1.oleane.net> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:09:08 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Mar10.150923est.24167@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are two bottlenecks I've seen in list processing; attempting to make SMTP connections, and attempts to resolve MX/A targets to check address validity. Zmailer has a good handle on the former, but not on the latter; a big mailing list can still take a while to expand and check all the addresses. - cks From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 10 21:16:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA18028; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 21:16:17 GMT Received: from albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA18022; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 13:16:10 -0800 From: tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu by albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) with SMTP id ; Thu, 10 Mar 94 16:18:53 -0500 Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (15.11/4.0) id ; Thu, 10 Mar 94 16:18:51 est Date: Thu, 10 Mar 94 16:18:51 est Message-Id: <9403102118.AA23219@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <94Mar10.150923est.24167@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu> "cks@hawkwind.utcs.toronto.edu" Reply-To: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 675 Massachusetts Ave., Cambridge, MA 02139-3309, USA +1 (617) 876-3296 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1 (617) 623-7739 Subject: Q:Size of Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 15:09:08 -0500 From: Chris Siebenmann Precedence: bulk There are two bottlenecks I've seen in list processing; attempting to make SMTP connections, and attempts to resolve MX/A targets to check address validity. Zmailer has a good handle on the former, but not on the latter; a big mailing list can still take a while to expand and check all the addresses. - cks Most DNS servers cache the remote lookups they perform locally. The cached entries time out based on a TTL (Time To Live) in each record found. These TTL are typically on the order of a day to a week. So if a list is active enough, MX/A resolution isn't a large overhead. best -len Member, League for Programming Freedom. Ask: lpf@uunet.uu.net From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 11 04:02:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id EAA19545; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 04:02:32 GMT Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id UAA19532; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 20:02:22 -0800 Received: from solar.org by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id TAA10980; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 19:59:43 -0800 Received: by solar.org (wcUUCP 3.90B) id N83600W Fri, 11 Mar 1994 01:35:12 GMT From: doug.evans@solar.org (Doug Evans) Subject: Listservers? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 1994 22:30:00 GMT Message-Id: <9403101835127959@solar.org> Organization: The Solar System BBS 714-837-9677 6.5gig To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To: list-managers@greatcircle.com D>I have a small but growing list of people, interested in Qabalah. Most of >us operate through BBS', from PC's. Is there LISTSERV software >available, that will operate on a DOS machine? D>Thanks, Doug Evans D> * QMPro 1.51 * MSI HQ! BBS * 805-395-0650 Home of WILDCAT! BBS From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 11 06:01:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA19871; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 06:01:15 GMT Received: from finch.creighton.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id WAA19864; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 22:01:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199403110601.WAA19864@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: by finch.creighton.edu (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA28099; Fri, 11 Mar 94 00:00:29 -0600 From: Larry Sheldon Subject: URGENT! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 11 Mar 94 0:00:29 CST Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk bluejay.creighton.edu has been off the air for 30+ hours (and will be for several more hours. We are actually alive and well -- bluejay has been participating in a disaster-recovery drill here as the recovery machine for a mission- critical application. In case somebody "out there" has a short fuse on timeouts, please treat subscribers from here gently if you get any "host unavailable" type bounces. We expect to be back about 2:00 A.M. CST Friday. March ll, 1994. -- -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.- . L. F. (Larry) Sheldon, Jr. Creighton University Computer Center . - Fixer Of The Broken, Old Gym 2500 California Street - . Expediter Of The Immoveable, Omaha, Nebraska, U.S.A., Earth 68178 . - Implementer Of The Impossible; 402 280 2254 lsheldon@creighton.edu - . A Legend in His Own Mind 402 280 2573 (facsimile) . - 402 332 4622 (residence) - .-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 11 07:52:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA20221; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 07:52:45 GMT Received: from grasp.insa-lyon.fr by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA20215; Thu, 10 Mar 1994 23:52:37 -0800 Received: (from wolf@localhost) by grasp.insa-lyon.fr (8.6.6.Beta8/8.6.6.Beta8) id IAA36868; Fri, 11 Mar 1994 08:52:22 +0100 From: Christophe Wolfhugel Message-Id: <199403110752.IAA36868@grasp.insa-lyon.fr> Subject: Re: Q:Size of Lists To: tower@prep.ai.mit.edu Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 08:52:22 +0100 (MET) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9403102118.AA23219@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> from "tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu" at Mar 10, 94 04:18:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 790 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk tower@gnu.ai.mit.edu said: |Most DNS servers cache the remote lookups they perform locally. [...] |So if a list is active enough, MX/A resolution isn't a large overhead. You do assume that most DNS are well configured. The trend is that everyday there are more misconfigured zones that good ones that appear. Unreachable servers, slow networks, all that slows down a lot the work. And negative responses are mostly still not cached. How many sites do have internal zones with just one name server... behind protected behind the firewall ? A few large companies are very good at this game... and regularly filter DNS traffic to their servers. I'm afraid there isn't much which can be done about the expansion delays, and the problem will become more and more important as time passes. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 14 03:08:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA04028; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 09:52:44 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA04022; Mon, 14 Mar 1994 01:52:33 -0800 Received: from zog.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id ; Mon, 14 Mar 94 01:51:49 PST Date: Mon, 14 Mar 94 01:51:49 PST Message-Id: <9403140951.AA25133@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Received: by zog.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19958; Mon, 14 Mar 94 01:51:48 PST From: k p c To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Majordomo vs. listproc (vs. others) and needed features In-Reply-To: <199403040910.BAA08848@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> References: <199403040910.BAA08848@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. X-Attribution: kpc Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks in part to the recent popularity of the net, I need to upgrade to some real mailing list software like majordomo or listproc. I would be grateful for recommendations on what to use. These are my impressions on the differences I have noticed so far, and questions about specific features I have recently decided are particularly important: o Can both systems do this? o I'd like subscribers to be able to post anytime. o I'd like non-subscribers not to be able to post. o I'd like "subscribe me" messages sent to the posting address to bounce cleanly. o I'd like bounces and mail loops to be detected and fixed cleanly. o I'd like a "set conceal" type of capability. I like a lot of Brent Chapman's style and therefore would ordinarily lean toward majordomo, but it seems as if majordomo can't do "set conceal" the way that listproc can. Is this right? I'd like for users only to have their addresses revealed, even to other subscribers, if they want them to be. In my list's case, most users do want their addresses revealed, and many have even requested a way to tell others about their research interests using the mailing list software (in some sort of archive), but some are more comfortable being in control of who has their addresses. For their sake, the software I choose should have something approximately like "set conceal". o What software do you think handles bounces and strange email problems the best? o Can I find a listserv or listproc or majordomo server somewhere else (say, abc.edu) to host my list, and administer it remotely? Can I do so and advertise my local alias here (which would point to server@abc.edu) and not have my users be confused about the existence of two different machines? In other words, can I make it look like the list is administered here even though the actual server is someplace else, using a sendmail alias? o Are there sites generally willing to host scientific lists? o There also exist mailbase (impression: might have what I need, seems to be popular in the UK, copyright status unknown) and extropians software (impression: beta, sophisticated, have to ask for permission to use it). I don't know of others. Thanks for any ideas on what software to use. -- kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov. AI, multidisciplinary neuroethology, info filtering. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 15 18:52:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA11573; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 18:52:22 GMT Received: from post.demon.co.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA11562; Tue, 15 Mar 1994 10:52:00 -0800 Received: from stonewall.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id ab27189; 15 Mar 94 15:37 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 13:13:41 GMT In-Reply-To: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@greatcircle.com's message 'List Managers Digest V3 #45' of Tue 15 Mar Reply-To: Nigel Whitfield X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #45 Message-ID: <9403151313.aa05849@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: k p c > > o There also exist mailbase (impression: might have what I > need, seems to be popular in the UK, copyright status > unknown) and extropians software (impression: beta, > sophisticated, have to ask for permission to use it). I > don't know of others. There's also the glp/run-list software that I wrote for the uk-motss mailing list (it's also now used for a couple of others). It's a little cranky, but I think it does most of what you want. If anyone's interested, I can mail them the docs (or even the code, if you have a strong stomach :-)) Nigel. -- [Nigel Whitfield nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] [For details on the uk-motss mailing list mail uk-motss-request@pyra.co.uk] [***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts *****] From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 03:48:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA25165; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 03:48:41 GMT Received: from spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA17229; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 07:43:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:42:59 GMT From: Ian Dickinson Message-Id: <4192.199403161542@spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: from localhost by spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk id PAA04192; Wed, 16 Mar 1994 15:42:59 GMT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Faulty list database? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run the Deviants list I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: subscribe sociology My Name I've asked these subscribers where they got their info from, and they say that they used some local(?) list database. It certainly seems to have bad info in it. Does anyone know what the source of this is? Cheers, -- Ian From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 13:57:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA28247; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:57:13 GMT Received: from spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id FAA28241; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 05:56:56 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:56:20 GMT From: Ian Dickinson Message-Id: <9857.199403171356@spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: from localhost by spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk id NAA09857; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:56:20 GMT In-Reply-To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer "Re: Faulty list database?" (Mar 17, 8:48am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92) To: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 17, 8:48am, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: } Subject: Re: Faulty list database? > >I run the Deviants list > >I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: > > > >subscribe sociology My Name > > > >I've asked these subscribers where they got their info from, and > >they say that they used some local(?) list database. It certainly > >seems to have bad info in it. Does anyone know what the source of > >this is? > Are all or some of these users from one particular host or domain? Most have been from m.cc.utah.edu, but the have been others such as es1.es.emr.ca and emr.ca (which may be the same host). There have been others, though I don't have all the details. This is the response I got from one of the users... > I am the one who tried to subscribe to the SOCIOLOGY list. I got > the list from a program on our system that lets you search through lots of > lists. It has a menue that automatically sends the subscribe message to > the lists you request (I am sure that my novice-ness is showing). I have > had problems with a few other lists I tried to subscribe to when the > computer sends a message back that it doesn't know what list I am talking > about. I am glad that there is a human out there. Cheers, -- Ian From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 15:34:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA28839; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 15:34:31 GMT Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA28833; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 07:34:22 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 10:35:57 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Ian Dickinson cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9403171035.aa23795@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >On Mar 17, 8:48am, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: >} Subject: Re: Faulty list database? >> >I run the Deviants list >> >I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: >> > >> >subscribe sociology My Name >> > >> >I've asked these subscribers where they got their info from, and >> >they say that they used some local(?) list database. It certainly >> >seems to have bad info in it. Does anyone know what the source of >> >this is? > >> Are all or some of these users from one particular host or domain? > >Most have been from m.cc.utah.edu, but the have been others such as >es1.es.emr.ca and emr.ca (which may be the same host). >There have been others, though I don't have all the details. >This is the response I got from one of the users... Then I'd try emailing postmaster@m.cc.utah.edu, or maybe even postmaster@cc.utah.edu explaining the problem. They need to fix their database! Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 16:36:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA29046; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:36:37 GMT Received: from loki.ossi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id IAA29040; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:36:28 -0800 Received: from foucault.ossi.com (foucault.ossi.com [192.240.4.2]) by loki.ossi.com (8.6.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id IAA16199; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:36:00 -0800 Received: (from cds@localhost) by foucault.ossi.com (8.6.6/8.6.6) id IAA17327; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:35:59 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 08:35:59 -0800 From: Chris Seabrook Message-Id: <199403171635.IAA17327@foucault.ossi.com> In-Reply-To: cudep@csv.warwick.ac.uk's message <4192.199403161542@spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk> of Mar 16, 15:42 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Ian Dickinson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --- begin included message from Ian Dickinson > I run the Deviants list > I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: > > subscribe sociology My Name --- end included message Assuming you are pointing to the missing mail address in this case, I have also been seeing this type of bad request. I seem to be averaging 3-4 per week on the realms list. I have yet to discern any pattern to them though, they seem to be spread geographically (USA and Europe) and also accross types of site. --Chris From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 17:46:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA29356; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 17:46:59 GMT Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA29349; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 09:46:51 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 12:48:46 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9403171248.aa24051@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chris Seabrook wrote: Ian Dickinson wrote: >> I run the Deviants list >> I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: >> >> subscribe sociology My Name > >Assuming you are pointing to the missing mail address in this case, I have >also been seeing this type of bad request. I seem to be averaging 3-4 per week >on the realms list. I have yet to discern any pattern to them though, they >seem to be spread geographically (USA and Europe) and also accross types of >site. Well, I just poked thru the list of mailing lists posted to usenet. There is no sociology list noted. I'm trying to dig up a copy of the old "List of Lists" which used to be on ftp.nisc.sri.com, but it's no longer there. I've got the feeling that someone, somewhere, made up a list of mailing lists with some erroneous info in it, and that's leading to what you're both seeing. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 17 21:24:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA00407; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 21:24:18 GMT Received: from dev.gdb.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA00401; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 13:24:11 -0800 Received: by dev.gdb.org (4.1/GSC4.21) id AA13952; Thu, 17 Mar 94 16:23:25 EST Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 16:23:25 EST From: patty@gdb.org (Patty Haley) Message-Id: <9403172123.AA13952@dev.gdb.org> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: feeling a bit sheepish, but. . . Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all: I want to archive my mailing list at cs.uwp.edu A few weeks ago I sent email per their announcement on getting instructions on how to do this. A couple of weeks later I got a response. My computer crashed this morning and that message was lost. Does someone happen to have this file to send my way, or tell me where I can get a copy so I don't have to wait a possible two more weeks (lots of newbies screaming for old digests) for a response? Thanks in advance--hope this isn't wasted bandwidth, but I'd like to get this archive bit off my back asap. -Patty From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 01:33:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id BAA01284; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 01:33:12 GMT Received: from post.demon.co.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA01278; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 17:33:00 -0800 Received: from stonewall.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa06831; 17 Mar 94 23:18 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 20:47:25 GMT In-Reply-To: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@greatcircle.com's message 'List Managers Digest V3 #47' of Thu 17 Mar Reply-To: Nigel Whitfield X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #47 Message-ID: <9403172047.aa04781@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: Ian Dickinson > Subject: Faulty list database? > > I run the Deviants list > I've been getting a large number of subscription requests saying: > > subscribe sociology My Name I've had similar, with people asking contacting uk-motss-request with messages about transgen... Nigel. -- [Nigel Whitfield nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] [For details on the uk-motss mailing list mail uk-motss-request@pyra.co.uk] [***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts *****] From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 02:14:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id CAA01364; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 02:14:20 GMT Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA01358; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 18:14:09 -0800 Received: from zog.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id ; Thu, 17 Mar 94 18:13:19 PST Date: Thu, 17 Mar 94 18:13:19 PST Message-Id: <9403180213.AA01694@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov> Received: by zog.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10827; Thu, 17 Mar 94 18:13:13 PST From: Kimball Collins To: Ian Dickinson , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. X-Attribution: kpc Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does this sound familiar to other list administrators? :-) Quoth Ian Dickinson on March 16: > they say that they used some local(?) list database. It certainly > seems to have bad info in it. Does anyone know what the source of > this is? I'd like to see posts by others who have experienced large numbers of similar problems. Here are some examples that have happened recently -- just those that I remember distinctly, and all only from one list: o An automatic subscription program thought that I administrate BIOLOGY-L. So people ran the program, and listserv subscriptions for BIOLOGY-L were coming in to me. I don't know who administrates BIOLOGY-L or have any connection with it or the subscription program. o The Dartmouth l-o-l ("l-o-l" = "list of lists") claimed that my list is called "biology". I have no idea whether this is the same source as the subscription program, or an error of different provenance. o Advanced Imaging Magazine published the posting, not administrative, address. A reader who was caught unawares by it told me the following about the article: The address is of a mailing list, but the description is that of a USENET newsgroup, and the entry appears under the heading of "FTP Archive." I think [name withheld] was a bit confused when she entered this one into the article. My list has never been gatewayed to Usenet (I am big on high S/N), and its archive contains only posts.) I'm glad for imaging enthusiasts to be interested, since it's an enabling technology, but I'd like for them (1) to know what my list is about, (2) to know the administrative address, and (3) not to post to it unless they subscribe first. o A l-o-l said that somebody else at a different site administrates my list. He was as surprised as I was :-). o One or more l-o-l had large errors but no way of contacting their maintainers. o A l-o-l gave the posting address as the subscribing address, causing inappropriate posts. o A l-o-l changed the sentence "Other than that, the list is unmoderated..." to "Other than that, the list is moderated...", reversing the sense of the word. (My list is not completely unmoderated nor completely moderated; it's a sendmail list with a set of guiding concepts and a primarily self-moderating structure, all of which needs explaining in an uncorrupted announcement.) As with some of these errors, I found this out because an inappropriate message was posted. o AOL: The language style of an old announcement is changed to something I would never use, and is presented as verbatim. My very prominent "please only copy this verbatim" request is kept in the announcement, giving the impression that the corrupted version was written by me. AOL claims that they get the announcements directly from the list administrators, giving even more impression that the announcement is accurate. But this is clearly false. They give out my address in the corrupted version but the announcement in their list was not written or sent by me. AOL was kind enough to reply to my email, and said they would remove the entry, but they have not done so after several weeks and an explicit request from me. I'd like faster service than that, especially given their reputation and other problems I've noticed with them, their software, and their policies. So where does that leave us with AOL? Not quite assimilated yet. I hope they get there, however, since they ARE big. At least they replied once. That's a first step. And supposedly one of them reads this mailing list. o People were incorrectly led to believe that non-subscribers may post. o People were led to believe that my list is a listserv. Some, mailbase. I think that others thought it to be majordomo. Others, fully manual. Still others, who knows what software a corrupted announcement said it was. o I receive queries like "please send me all of the information you can about psychology by tomorrow since I have to write a report". I am not certain, but it is possible that some of these are due not just to newness on the net, but to announcement abbreviation by well-meaning compilers. Most mailing list announcements imply that -request means "administrative requests" rather than "you can send any request to this address and it shall be answered, yea brother!". But abbreviated compilations don't. For all some new users know, we are automated servers to answer questions. Again, these are only the corruptions that I remember, and they are only the recent ones! My announcement actually goes to extremes by explicitly requesting verbatim copying only, to help prevent lossy transcription and to help keep the list's S/N high. It's of course not the users' fault since they usually don't know better. And the l-o-l administrators are well-intentioned and hard-working. For example, users and l-o-l administrators don't always know about -request addresses, and the latter don't always know that lossy transcription is a problem. In fact, ALL of these errors are well intentioned, by everybody involved. So while the overwhelming sense of being swamped by misled users can make one exasperated -- and singlehandedly force a personal-service-oriented administrator to use server software -- one should realize that the people involved are trying to do the right thing as they see it. But it's not just the size of the net that's doing it; clueless users aren't the problem. Misled users are actually more problematic. And good intentions aren't quite all there is to keeping the net going, as Craig Sherghold can tell you. Several postal workers are reported to be employed by good intentions toward him, sorting the good will into large piles of meaning-well! Will we list administrators become like those postal workers? It's 1994. Do you know where your list description is? There are hundreds, probably thousands, of lists of lists now available globally, when they are all taken into account. Please reply to the List Managers list rather than to me directly, ESPECIALLY if you have instructive examples of similar corruptions to relate. -- kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov. AI, multidisciplinary neuroethology, info filtering. On a superhighway, existing roads are destroyed, pollution and jams result, you can't make your own on-ramp, politics controls development, and you get stopped if you use unapproved technology, travel in your own direction, or go too fast. From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 03:14:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA01968; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 03:14:19 GMT Received: from rara.ossi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA00925; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 15:30:03 -0800 Received: from foucault.ossi.com (foucault.ossi.com [192.240.4.2]) by rara.ossi.com (8.6.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id PAA29449 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 15:29:21 -0800 Received: (from cds@localhost) by foucault.ossi.com (8.6.6/8.6.6) id PAA17908 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 15:29:09 -0800 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 15:29:09 -0800 From: Chris Seabrook Message-Id: <199403172329.PAA17908@foucault.ossi.com> In-Reply-To: info-labview-request@pica.army.mil's message <9403171248.aa24051@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> of Mar 17, 12:48 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Faulty list database? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I did some more research on this and compiled this list of domain from which I have received such erroneous subscribe requests: MUSICB.MCGILL.CA NEXUS.QGRAPH.COM alkymi.unit.no badlands.NoDak.edu bart.db.erau.edu binkley.cs.mcgill.ca cub.uca.edu cyberstore.ca eik.eik.bme.hu lux.latrobe.edu.au magnus.acs.ohio plains.NoDak.edu seas.gwu.edu stthomas.edu student.anu.edu.au teesside.ac.uk uga.cc.uga.edu viosys.demon.co.uk vnet.IBM.COM Anyone spot a pattern ?? --Chris From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 03:07:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id KAA03506; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:14:49 GMT Received: from spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id CAA03500; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 02:14:33 -0800 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:14:28 GMT From: Ian Dickinson Message-Id: <13440.199403181014@spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: from localhost by spatula.csv.warwick.ac.uk id KAA13440; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:14:28 GMT In-Reply-To: Kimball Collins "Re: Faulty list database?" (Mar 17, 6:13pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Faulty list database? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mar 17, 6:13pm, Kimball Collins wrote: } Subject: Re: Faulty list database? > o The Dartmouth l-o-l ("l-o-l" = "list of lists") claimed that > my list is called "biology". I have no idea whether this is > the same source as the subscription program, or an error of > different provenance. This seems to be the cause of the specific problem I originally highlighted. Someone (Thanks Katherine!) who knew emr.ca got in touch with the sysadmin there, and this was the response: > sll uses the file /public/doc/internet.lists on emr1. > That file is FTP'd from dartcms1.dartmouth.edu:/siglists/internet.lists > every Saturday morning. I have a blurb from Dartmouth if you're interested. I'm going to fetch the list and see what contents are. Anyone else seeing the same sort of problem should probably do the same. Cheers, -- Ian From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 17:13:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA04411; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 17:13:26 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA04405; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 09:13:15 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23120 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 18 Mar 1994 10:49:31 -0600 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA03049; 18 Mar 94 10:15:18 CST (Fri) Subject: The Dartmouth List To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 10:15:17 CST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9403181015.AA03049@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just went and looked at the Dartmouth list. It's in some funky format that's hard to read. Anyhow, it has both my lists. It appears that they're listed by some classification system, tho how they got categorized is beyond me. The endorphins list is under "psychology" and the ranger-list is under "Author." Neither of these bothers me, tho I can see how someone would be confused by it. What I didn't like is it gave the *list address* before the request address. That's not exactly kosher.... -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 "America Online is an infoBuick doing 45 in the fast lane of the Information Superhighway." -- Peter da Silva From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 18 17:50:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA04606; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 17:50:57 GMT Received: from hermes.acs.ryerson.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA04589; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 09:50:26 -0800 Received: by hermes.acs.ryerson.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40585; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 12:47:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 12:47:35 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Ribeiro Subject: Re: The Dartmouth List To: Stephanie da Silva Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9403181015.AA03049@taronga.taronga.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Mar 1994, Stephanie da Silva wrote: > What I didn't like is it gave the *list address* before the request > address. That's not exactly kosher.... that's only if you read the raw file, it was designed to be browsed with "sll". Your list shows up in sll as: > Title: Psychology Category: Personal > endorphins > Subscribe: endorphins-request@taronga.com > > Post to: endorphins@taronga.com best wishes, /P From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 19 03:31:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA06089; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 03:31:56 GMT Received: from walt.disney.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA06083; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 19:31:49 -0800 From: sullivan@fa.disney.com Received: from dalsdb by walt.disney.com with SMTP id AA01496 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.3 for List-Managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 18 Mar 1994 19:31:51 -0800 Received: by dalsdb (Smail3.1.28.1 #53) id m0phrh4-000FaQC; Fri, 18 Mar 94 19:27 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 18 Mar 94 19:27 PST To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: More sophisticated mailing Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Okay, one of my mailing lists has reached a size such that the simple digesting and mailing software I got for it a few years back just isn't cutting it. What I need is, simply, given a file containing the digest and a list of members, a program that sends the digest out to the members without clogging up my site's outgoing mail queue for hours on end. I don't need mail reflecting software. I don't need software to handle subscription administration. I just need to get the digest out to the list in a resource efficient manner. It'd be nice if it was a breeze to set up and required little/no maintenance. All help is appreciated. Thanks. Michael Sullivan sullivan@fa.disney.com Walt Disney Feature Animation +1 818 544 2683 (voice) Glendale, CA +1 818 544 4579 (fax) From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 19 03:55:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA06133; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 03:55:43 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id TAA06127; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 19:55:33 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id WAA04968; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 22:54:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199403190354.WAA04968@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: sullivan@fa.disney.com cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: More sophisticated mailing In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 18 Mar 1994 19:27:00 PST." Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 22:54:37 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Okay, one of my mailing lists has reached a size such that the simple > digesting and mailing software I got for it a few years back just isn't > cutting it. What I need is, simply, given a file containing the digest > and a list of members, a program that sends the digest out to the members > without clogging up my site's outgoing mail queue for hours on end. I > don't need mail reflecting software. I don't need software to handle > subscription administration. I just need to get the digest out to the > list in a resource efficient manner. It'd be nice if it was a breeze > to set up and required little/no maintenance. I just finished writing a C program to do "bulk" mailing. For input, it takes a file of recipient addresses (one address per line) and a message (with headers already attached) to be sent to the recipients. It sorts the recipient list by reversed domain (so similar ones sort together), splits up the recipients into several groups containing no more than N domains each, creates an SMTP envelope for each group of recipients, and feeds that envelope to "/usr/lib/sendmail -bs". Splitting the envelopes up allows sendmail to perform delivery in parallel, so instead of having one large queue entry (for which sendmail might take awhile to get around to attempting delivery for some recipients), it has several smaller queue entries. Depending on your point-of-view, this can still be considered "cluttering up your mail queue", but it does seem to deliver messages more quickly to most recipients. I successfully used this program to attempt delivery of a message to over 6000 recipients around the world, within a few hours. However, the program is not extensively tested, and may not work well in all environments. (In particular, if your system has per-user process quotas, or a small number of process table entries, you will want to modify this program to recover gracefully.) No warranty, but you're welcome to it. ftp to cs.utk.edu, directory pub/moore/email, file From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 19 23:56:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA08598; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 23:56:48 GMT Received: from nico.aarnet.edu.au by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA02358; Thu, 17 Mar 1994 21:03:54 -0800 Received: from cruskit.aarnet.edu.au (cruskit.aarnet.edu.au [139.130.204.2]) by nico.aarnet.edu.au (8.6.7/8.6.4) with SMTP id PAA26731; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 15:02:42 +1000 Received: by cruskit.aarnet.edu.au (8.6.7) id PAA02729; Fri, 18 Mar 1994 15:03:25 +1000 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 1994 15:03:25 +1000 (EST) From: Andy Linton Subject: Re: Faulty list database? To: Chris Seabrook cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199403172329.PAA17908@foucault.ossi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 17 Mar 1994, Chris Seabrook wrote: > I did some more research on this and compiled this list of domain from which I > have received such erroneous subscribe requests: > > MUSICB.MCGILL.CA > NEXUS.QGRAPH.COM > alkymi.unit.no > badlands.NoDak.edu > bart.db.erau.edu > binkley.cs.mcgill.ca > cub.uca.edu > cyberstore.ca > eik.eik.bme.hu > lux.latrobe.edu.au > magnus.acs.ohio > plains.NoDak.edu > seas.gwu.edu > stthomas.edu > student.anu.edu.au > teesside.ac.uk > uga.cc.uga.edu > viosys.demon.co.uk > vnet.IBM.COM > > Anyone spot a pattern ?? > I'd say it goes to show that 'dumb' users are evenly distributed across the whole Internet (:-) -- Andy Linton A.Linton@aarnet.edu.au Network Engineer phone: +61 6 249 2874 AARNet fax: +61 6 249 1369 -- From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 20 05:32:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id FAA09780; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 05:32:54 GMT Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id VAA09774; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 21:32:43 -0800 From: cyberbio94@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA24725; Sun, 20 Mar 94 00:30:57 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Message-Id: <9403200030.tn162153@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 20 Mar 94 00:30:55 EST Subject: $2,500 CyberBio Contest Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All mailing list owners and subscribers are invited to enter the 1994 CyberBio Contest described below. Please feel free to repost this announcement to your own mailing list, BBS, or forum. Your service will receive national exposure in the book: "Voices From Cyberspace," if it is mentioned in a winning entry selected for publication. If you do repost, please send a short note to: cyberbio94@aol.com listing where you posted to help avoid any duplicate mailings. Thank you, Christopher Heila, Contest Editor FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE REPOST FREELY <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1994 CyberBio Contest <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Surprise us...Impress us...Make us laugh... Be bold...Be brilliant. See your name in print...Discover new online secrets. --*-- Odyssey Media is now accepting entries for the 1994 CyberBio Contest. All winning entries will be published in the upcoming book: "Voices From Cyberspace." This collection will feature intriguing profiles (brief cyberspace biographies) of over 300 international online voyagers--eclectic, amusing, informative, and fun. Find 100's of tips and tricks for everyone from feebs to gurus. Online users from all countries are encouraged to apply. Open to all topics: Arts - Business - Writing - Multimedia - Graphics - Publishing - Education - Music - Travel - Shopping - Gaming - Entertainment - Family - Students - Science - and more. ** Over $2,500 in prizes: First Prize: Three $500 Awards Second Prize: Three $250 Awards Third Prize: Three $100 Awards All other entries selected for publication will receive an extra contributor's copy of "Voices From Cyberspace." Each month during March, April, and May approximately 150 entries will be selected for final awards and publication consideration. The final entry deadline is midnight EST, May 31, 1994. Early entries each month are encouraged. Entries will be judged based on originality, creativity, and the value of information provided. "Voices From Cyberspace" will be published and all prizes will be awarded in July, 1994. All contestants will receive a copy of the book containing the winning entries: "Voices From Cyberspace" -- a $19.95 value. (For all foreign entries please add $4 shipping) The entry fee is $10 (US FUNDS ONLY). Payable to Odyssey Media. You must be 18 years or older to enter and no identity hacking allowed (providing false names and addresses). Limit one entry per person. The Contest Editor, Christopher Heila, has a Master of Fine Arts in Writing and a Bachelor of Science in Communications Technology. He has worked at Cornell University, Ithaca, New York, as a New Technologies Coordinator and a Network & Database Administrator. He also teaches creative writing and has published his poetry and fiction in several literary journals. He stumbled into cyberspace over eight years ago and continues to surf the Internet and many commercial online services. In April, he will launch the online version of Odyssey Media's newsletter: "Awards For Writers." THREE WAYS TO ENTER: ** Fax your entry with VISA/MC to: 1-800-CYBER22 1-800-292-3722 ** US Mail with check, money order, or VISA/MC to: CyberBio Contest Odyssey Media Cornell Business & Technology Park PO Box 4437 Ithaca, NY 14852 USA ** Email with VISA/MC to: CompuServe - 73172,3467 America Online - CyberBio94 Prodigy - AGHE88B (fax or mail preferred) GEnie - CYBERBIO DELPHI - CYBERBIO Internet - (do not send credit card data via Internet. For other inquiries send to: cyberbio94@aol.com) If you fax or snail mail your entry, keep a copy (unedited) for submitting electronically if it is selected for publication. ================== CyberBio Entry Form ===================== First Name______________ Middle_____ Last__________________ Email Address(es)__________________________________________ Address__________________________________________________ City________________________ State______ Zip______________ Country_____________ Foreign Address_______________________ Phone number(s) (_____) _____________ (_____) _______________ Do you wish to have your address(es) and phone published? Email: Yes__ No__ Mail: Yes__ No__ Phone: Yes__ No__ Enclosed: $10__ $14__ (Includes $4 for foreign shipping) Check__ Money Order___ (US FUNDS ONLY) Or: VISA__ MC__ Number____________________ Exp Date_______ Fax__ Email__ Mail: Signature ______________________________ All contestants will receive a copy of the book containing the winning entries: "Voices From Cyberspace" -- a $19.95 value. (For all foreign entries please add $4 shipping) Complete the following sections using no more than 350 words for the total entry. Items marked with an * are suggested, but optional. Separate each passage by number and do not change the order. 1) *CyberNickname. 2) Occupation / Avocation / Place in Life's Journey. 3) *Credentials. 4) *If you run a business using cyberspace describe your services. 5) *If you are a sysop describe your BBS / Forum / Service. 6) Describe Your Computer System (hypercharged or a clunker?). 7) *Computer Pet Name. 8) Favorite Online Service(s) / BBS / Game / or Hangout. 9) Best Tip For Other Users. 10) Favorite CyberQuote (credit the originator). 11) Vision of the Online Future. 12) *CyberFantasy (any subject welcome; "R" rated or milder ;-). ==================== Best Wishes & Good Luck! =================== From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 20 07:19:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA09969; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 07:19:29 GMT Received: from mentor.cc.purdue.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA09963; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 23:19:21 -0800 Received: by mentor.cc.purdue.edu (5.61/Purdue_CC) id AA21226; Sun, 20 Mar 94 02:19:29 -0500 From: jac@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (John Clear) Message-Id: <9403200719.AA21226@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: Re: $2,500 CyberBio Contest To: cyberbio94@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Mar 94 2:19:28 EST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) In-Reply-To: <9403200030.tn162153@aol.com>; from "cyberbio94@aol.com" at Mar 20, 94 12:30 am Reply-To: jac@mentor.cc.purdue.edu Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Previously, cyberbio94@aol.com said: [...] > > All contestants will receive a copy of the book containing > the winning entries: "Voices From Cyberspace" -- a $19.95 value. > (For all foreign entries please add $4 shipping) > > The entry fee is $10 (US FUNDS ONLY). Payable to Odyssey Media. [...] Let me get this straight. You want us to PAY to give you information. You are going to take that information, and then put it into a book, which you are then going to market to those wanting to be in on the latest fad, aka the Information Super Highway. A book, which, by the way, will be outdated before it even gets sent to the publisher. I'm not at all suprised you posted from america online, especially after the recent discussions on this list about aol. John "I'm sick of cyberpunk wanna be's" Clear -- John `SpaceCadet` Clear - jac@mentor.cc.purdue.edu, jac@panix.com Officiator, Purdue Daemons; Purdue Pilots, Inc. PP-ASEL SM, CAP-NYW "Aviation is proof, that given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible." -- Eddie Rickenbacker pgp key upon request From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 20 07:28:21 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA09995; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 07:28:21 GMT Received: from rip.psg.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA09989; Sat, 19 Mar 1994 23:28:14 -0800 Received: by rip.psg.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0piHvq-00030IC; Sat, 19 Mar 94 23:28 PST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 19 Mar 94 23:28 PST From: randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) To: jac@mentor.cc.purdue.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers) Subject: Re: $2,500 CyberBio Contest Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Previously, cyberbio94@aol.com said: >> All contestants will receive a copy of the book containing >> the winning entries: "Voices From Cyberspace" -- a $19.95 value. >> (For all foreign entries please add $4 shipping) > Let me get this straight. You want us to PAY to give you information. After some years of flaming list abusers like this AOL dweeb, I have taken to just emailing them a megabyte or two. As someone suggested the other day, a couple of copies of a full feed site's active and newsgroups files is often tasty. Or Mailing vmunix (file chopaa) part 1 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopab) part 2 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopac) part 3 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopad) part 4 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopae) part 5 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopaf) part 6 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopag) part 7 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopah) part 8 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com Mailing vmunix (file chopai) part 9 of 42 to cyberbio94@aol.com ... From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 20 11:57:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA10809; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 11:57:38 GMT Received: from MIT.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA10803; Sun, 20 Mar 1994 03:57:31 -0800 From: pshuang@MIT.EDU Received: from NINJA.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA28489; Sun, 20 Mar 94 06:57:37 EST Received: by ninja.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA12950; Sun, 20 Mar 94 06:57:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 20 Mar 94 06:57:31 -0500 Message-Id: <9403201157.AA12950@ninja.MIT.EDU> Reply-To: pshuang@MIT.EDU To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: John Clear's message of Sun, 20 Mar 94 2:19:28 EST <9403200719.AA21226@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Subject: $2,500 CyberBio Contest Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't see this issue as being particularly relevant to this mailing list. I am setting a Reply-to on this message to myself only, and I encourage everyone to take responses to private email on other branches of this thread as well. (I also feel that the CyberBio Contest entry fee leaves a funny taste in my mouth. However, given the parameters of the contest as posted, if simply entering entitles one to a copy of the book, as opposed to having your entry make it into the book, or at least make it past a preliminary screening to weed out bogus entries, I can understand why they'd want to put in an entry fee to prevent people from sending two word entries just to get a copy of the book. However, I think offering free copies only to people making it past a preliminary screening based on content of entry would have been much more sensible.) --- Yours in Leadership, Friendship, and Service, Ping Huang (INTERNET: pshuang@mit.edu), probably speaking for himself From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 21 14:42:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA14933; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:42:50 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA14927; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 06:42:43 -0800 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id JAA23450; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:42:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199403211442.JAA23450@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:42:30 EST In-Reply-To: cyberbio94@aol.com "$2,500 CyberBio Contest" (Mar 20, 12:30am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: cyberbio94@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: $2,500 CyberBio Contest Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > All contestants will receive a copy of the book containing > the winning entries: "Voices From Cyberspace" -- a $19.95 value. > (For all foreign entries please add $4 shipping) > > The entry fee is $10 (US FUNDS ONLY). Payable to Odyssey Media. Great scam! Good luck with it. It's been done before, but there's a sucker born every minute, so you may do OK. Let us know how it works out. --Mike From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 21 14:45:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA14955; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:45:51 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id GAA14949; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 06:45:45 -0800 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id JAA23455; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:45:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199403211445.JAA23455@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:45:30 EST In-Reply-To: pshuang@MIT.EDU "$2,500 CyberBio Contest" (Mar 20, 6:57am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: pshuang@MIT.EDU, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: $2,500 CyberBio Contest Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I don't see this issue as being particularly relevant to this mailing > list. I am setting a Reply-to on this message to myself only, and I > encourage everyone to take responses to private email on other > branches of this thread as well. I, obviously, disagree. Stuff like this is fertile ground for great satire, wit, and imaginative flaming. There's nothing wrong with having fun, occassionally, even on list-managers mailing list. I never mind a little extra traffic when it includes good humor. --Mike From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 21 17:54:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id RAA16038; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 17:54:54 GMT Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id JAA16031; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 09:54:46 -0800 From: chrisheila@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA15126; Mon, 21 Mar 94 12:53:06 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Message-Id: <9403211253.tn192683@aol.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 12:53:04 EST Subject: My CyberBio Posting Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, it looks like I stepped on a land mine with the CyberBio posting. I apologize if the post was an inappropriate use of your list. This was not a random or shotgun post. Our call for entries has been received well on other lists and services, so I thought that list managers might want to enter and/or post to their own lists for interested subscribers. Apparently my perspective as a published writer is very different from those on this list. Writers are eager for opportunities to publish their creative work. I sent an apology to Brent hoping he would post it to the list. It hasn't appeared, so I thought I should go ahead and send this myself to help clear up any misunderstandings. I am not online to get rich quick or make enemies. Sorry this is a long post, but there are several accusations that I'd like to address that have been posted publicly on this list or sent to me. Please reply to me personally to avoid any more unwanted postings to the list. Some responses I'm getting criticize the CyberBio Contest as a money-making scam. I assure you this is a legitimate publishing opportunity. Individuals who enter have a chance to win the awards and have their entry published, plus they will receive a copy of the final book: "Voices From Cyberspace." The entry fees do not cover all the costs for preparing, printing, and mailing the books. We are not making a profit on any of the entry fees. An entry fee in a writing contest is a very common practice to help cover costs. I have gotten some useful replies, but most of it has been garbage dumps, or new ways to say "jerk" and "go away." Some of the flames have been very witty and even poetic. I would welcome further writing as an entry. To help compensate for the irritation I've caused to the list, I will waive the entry fee for any list manager on this list who might want to write an entry. I can't send a free book, though. (Include this paragraph in your entry.) This applies only to the original list managers on this list. In the spirit of sharing info on the nets, Odyssey Media is preparing a free online version of "Awards For Writers" newsletter (listings of national grants, fellowships, and contests for writers) to be launched in April. The print version is in its second year. Portions of our book "Voices From Cyberspace" will also be freely available online. Based on the responses we are getting overall, there is a strong interest in information about online services and the Internet on a "human interest" level -- an exchange of creative, interesting and informative ways people from all walks of life are using networks and services. Those who do not have the online savvy to find this info will appreciate a printed book to browse. Even though this posting might generate more garbage in my mailbox, I hope it will encourage some useful comments or suggestions as well. Thanks for your time --chris heila From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 21 22:22:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id WAA17009; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 22:22:45 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA17000; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:22:37 -0800 Message-Id: <199403212222.OAA17000@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: chrisheila@aol.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: My CyberBio Posting In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 21 Mar 94 12:53:04 EST Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:22:37 -0800 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk chrisheila@aol.com writes: # I sent an apology to Brent hoping he would post it to the list. It hasn't # appeared, so I thought I should go ahead and send this myself to help clear # up any misunderstandings. I am not online to get rich quick or make enemies. I've been out of town, and was enjoying a few days away from the Internet. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 22 02:44:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id CAA18143; Tue, 22 Mar 1994 02:44:02 GMT Received: from mailgate.prod.aol.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id SAA18137; Mon, 21 Mar 1994 18:43:54 -0800 From: chrisheila@aol.com Received: by mailgate.prod.aol.net (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA14032; Mon, 21 Mar 94 21:42:09 -0500 X-Mailer: America Online Mailer Message-Id: <9403212142.tn03559@aol.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 21 Mar 94 21:42:02 EST Subject: Contest Canceled Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I regret having to make yet another post to your list. It has been brought to my attention that Odyssey Media's CyberBio Contest is being misrepresented in other areas of the net. Lightning strikes quickly online. Unfortunately, we have terminated the project to avoid further misunderstandings and disruption to our other publishing activities. All entries received are being promptly returned with a full refund. Thank you to all those that expressed interest. Sorry for the wasted time and bandwidth..... From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 23 13:18:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id NAA25644; Wed, 23 Mar 1994 13:18:49 GMT Received: from ncrhub1.NCR.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id FAA25638; Wed, 23 Mar 1994 05:18:40 -0800 From: chenowet@ccncrtd.daytonoh.NCR.COM Received: from dayhub by ncrhub1.NCR.COM id aa27196; 23 Mar 94 8:18 EST Received: by dayhub.DaytonOH.NCR.COM; 23 Mar 94 08:15:22 EST Received: by law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM; 23 Mar 94 08:15:13 EST Received: from cc:Mail by ccncrtd.DaytonOh.NCR.com id AA764438038 Wed, 23 Mar 94 07:53:58 EDT Date: Wed, 23 Mar 94 07:53:58 EDT Message-Id: <9402237644.AA764438038@ccncrtd.DaytonOh.NCR.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Parsing admminstrivia Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just got my 147th list message this month from someone trying to communicate with a list administrator, but the message went out to the whole list instead. This may be an old subject here, but, boy does it still need fixing on existing lists! Typical of messages that ought to be parsed out are those from: o People trying to sign off from an e-mail list. o People who turned on automatic e-mail answering software while they are away. o People who discover a list's address and want to sign on, but don't know how. These are all in addition to those infamous bouncing system error messages, of course. No doubt there are fairly complex problems involved here. For example, by the time people decide they want to leave a list, they have long since lost the first-time greeting information telling them how to do that properly. For that particular situation, perhaps we could add something like the following logic to all our list distribution packages: If the body of an incoming message is less than 10 lines long, or if the message's first paragraph is a one-liner, Then look in the first paragraph for words like "signoff," "logout," and "please remove." If any of these appear, Then route the message to the list administrator for further study, instead of sending the message out automatically to the list. Perhaps there are other alternatives. Steve Chenoweth, Technology & Development AT&T Global Information Solutions (NCR) 1700 S. Patterson Blvd., Dayton, OH 45479 steve.chenoweth@daytonOH.ncr.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 24 15:25:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA01877; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 15:25:00 GMT Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id HAA01871; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 07:24:53 -0800 Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27345; Thu, 24 Mar 1994 10:26:41 -0500 Date: Thu, 24 Mar 1994 10:26:41 -0500 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9403241526.AA27345@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199403240910.BAA00687@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> (List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM) Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #53 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steve Chenoweth (chenowet@ccncrtd.daytonoh.NCR.COM) writes: >I just got my 147th list message this month from someone trying to >communicate with a list administrator, but the message went out >to the whole list instead. ... >For that particular situation, perhaps we could add something like >the following logic to all our list distribution packages: ... I'm not sure of all of the different sorts of checking that it does, but I've been using listproc for a few months now, and it seems to do a pretty good job of catching administrative messages and preventing them from being broadcast to lists. One thing that it does is to check the first line of all incoming messages for words like "subscribe", "unsubscribe", "signoff"... I think only 1 out of about 30 such messages to my list has had such a command well enough disguised to actually make it out to the list. Listproc also checks the address that incoming mail is originating from, and will not allow messages from things like "Mailer-Daemon@foo". In the first case, the message is bounced to the list's owner and the sender informing the sender that the message was not sent out and giving the reason for the rejection. In the second case, the message is bounced only to the list owner. I'm pretty pleased with the software because of things like that. Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 25 22:31:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id WAA02131; Fri, 25 Mar 1994 22:31:47 GMT Received: from metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id OAA02125; Fri, 25 Mar 1994 14:31:37 -0800 Received: from garion.it.com.au by metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU with MHSnet id AA21555 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for List-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sat, 26 Mar 1994 08:31:07 +1000 Received: by garion.it.com.au (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0pkKKh-00002o5; Sat, 26 Mar 94 06:26 WST Message-Id: Subject: Re: How to get a Mailing List. To: List-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 26 Mar 1994 06:26:26 +0800 (WST) From: Jean-Paul Chia X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 123 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi.. Umm.. I'm in need of a new mailing list server.. for my mailing lists.. Do yo have any space on yours? Thank you. JP From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 28 00:47:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id AAA23239; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 00:47:16 GMT Received: from relay1.UU.NET by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id QAA23233; Sun, 27 Mar 1994 16:47:07 -0800 Received: from uucp4.uu.net by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AAwjcl04353; Sun, 27 Mar 94 19:47:29 -0500 Received: from rde.UUCP by uucp4.uu.net with UUCP/RMAIL ; Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:47:30 -0500 Received: from homebase.vistachrome.com by cyan.vistachrome.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07935; Sun, 27 Mar 94 19:33:29 EST Received: by homebase.vistachrome.com (5.65/1.35) id AA18073; Sun, 27 Mar 94 19:33:57 -0500 From: andy@homebase.vistachrome.com (Andy Finkenstadt) Message-Id: <9403280033.AA18073@homebase.vistachrome.com> Subject: Lists temporarily offline To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 27 Mar 1994 19:33:56 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 894 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good day, The following lists are temporarily offline while I move them from a former employer to my own personal unix machine: access Microsoft Access Digest cpa Computer Press Association (private) mailing list erotica Rec.Arts.Erotica mailing list oracle-digest Oracle RDBMS mailing list paradox-digest Borland Paradox DBMS mailing list pick PICK mailing list powerpc-digest Power PC Discussion mailing list recipes Rec.Food.Recipes mailing list recipes-digest Digest version of above Each was majordomo based (majordomo@homes.com). Andy -- Andrew Finkenstadt | Systems Analyst, Homes & Land Publishing Corporation +1 904-575-0189 | GEnie Sysop ,,, andy@genie.geis.com | (. .) Peek-a-boo! andy@homes.com +----------------------o00-(_)-00o--------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 28 23:12:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id XAA29331; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 23:12:10 GMT Received: from sun4nl.NL.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id PAA29325; Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:11:39 -0800 Received: from solair1.inter.NL.net by sun4nl.NL.net with SMTP id AA25955 (5.65b/CWI-3.3); Tue, 29 Mar 1994 01:11:47 +0200 Received: by solair1.inter.NL.net (5.65b/NLnet1.2) id AA20578; Tue, 29 Mar 1994 01:11:47 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 01:11:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: BATRN Subject: How to UNSUBSCRIBE (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Considering the recent number of AOL bashings, I found this message to another list quite sobering!! Paul aka batrn@inter.nl.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 17:37:59 EST From:krclements@AOL.COM To: Multiple recipients of list MARKET-L Subject: How to UNSUBSCRIBE I think the problem for most people in trying to "Unsubscribe" is not the actual command, but the concept of whom to mail the message to. The address MARKET-L@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU (which is the one I mailed this message to) is the wrong address to send any "command" messages to, including UNSUBSCRIBE. Mail to this address will be distributed, just like any normal message, to all the list members and not do what you want it to. You must send "command" messages to LISTSERV@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU. This is the address of the computer which is just waiting to hear your "command" messages. If it helps, think of this as the address of the little elf who is copying the mail he gets to send to everyone else on the mail list! When the elf hears you want to UNSUBSCRIBE, he'll take your name off the list! Does that help? :-) I hope so, I don't want to see any more UNSUBSCRIBE messages, either. Perhaps this concept is not clearly explained in the FAQ, as demonstrated by continued attempts to send UNSUBSCRIBE messages to this address, even after the FAQ was posted. But I wouldn't suggest using my corny elf metaphor. ######## I'd like to suggest, again, that you can use the DIGEST command to make the Listserv funnel all the day's messages into one message and then that gets mailed to you. The advantage is you only get one message per day. The drawbacks are you might get one really BIG message and since you are waiting for the Listserv to queue all the messages into one file for you, there's a delay in receiving them. I find it much easier to manage this way, especially if you're a member of several lists. -Kenneth Clements DownEast Technology, Inc. Product Marketing Specialist 15 Lower Main Street Belfast, ME 04915 207/338-6904 (FAX: 338-6906) INTERNET: KRClements@aol.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 29 03:52:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id LAA01838; Tue, 29 Mar 1994 11:51:09 GMT Received: from metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-931103) id DAA01821; Tue, 29 Mar 1994 03:50:48 -0800 Received: from drasnia.it.com.au by metro.ucc.su.OZ.AU with MHSnet id AA22069 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Tue, 29 Mar 1994 20:21:29 +1000 Received: from drasnia by garion.it.com.au with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0plauv-00002T5; Tue, 29 Mar 94 18:21 WST Received: by drasnia (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #14) id m0plajX-00002cC; Tue, 29 Mar 94 18:09 GMT+0800 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 18:06:34 +0000 From: Jean-Paul Chia Subject: Help! Please... To: Mailing List Owners Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello.. After about 4 weeks of searching, I've come here, I'm looking for a new Mailing List Server to host my Mailing Lists, I have 3 of them, they aren't very large, and their not moderated lists. Please, if there is anyone out there who could sqeeze me on their System, I'd be very interested in hearing from you.. Thank you. JP ___--- ---___ +------__--~~~ _~-----[ Jean-Paul Chia ]------~_ ~~~--__------+ | __-~~ _~ Drasnian Technologies ~_ ~~-__ | _-~ _~ Perth, Western Australia ~_ ~-_ ~-_ ~- jean-paul@drasnia.it.com.au -~ _-~ |~--_ ~- jean-paul@garion.it.com.au _~ _--~| | ~~--__ ~_ jpchia@DIALix.oz.au _~ __--~~ | | ~~~---___~- -~___---~~~ | | IRC: TheWiz (jpchia@DIALix.oz.au) PH: +61-9-447-6261 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+