From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 1 18:01:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA12432; Fri, 1 Jul 1994 18:01:28 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA12426; Fri, 1 Jul 1994 11:01:18 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA29539; Fri, 1 Jul 94 19:39:23 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA14779; Fri, 1 Jul 94 19:37:06 +0200 Message-Id: <9407011737.AA14779@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 19:37:04 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: SmartList (& procmail) v3.03 have been released Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The mailinglist management package that used to be distributed together with procmail has now been split off in a separate package which has been called "SmartList". There have been numerous enhancements since v2.90 (which must have been roughly the version which was compared to the Majordomo and Listprocessor packages about a year ago). The packages can be picked up at (if the German Telecom permits, that is, because they are currently messing up the internet routing here every other day): ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.gz /pub/packages/procmail/SmartList.tar.gz Or, you can obtain them via the (SmartList :-) mail archive server by sending a mail to procmail-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de with the following (MIME format): Subject: archive get procmail*tar.gz SmartList*tar.gz or (uuencoded, non-MIME): Subject: archive get procmail*uue.* SmartList*uue.* --------- Summary of what SmartList provides: + The overseeable management of an arbitrary number of mailinglists + Convenient and simple creation of new mailinglists + Convenient and simple removal of existing mailinglists + Fully automated subscription/unsubscription/help-request processing (no operator intervention needed) + Enough intelligence to overcome the ignorance of some subscribers (will direct subscribe and unsubscribe requests away from the regular list and automatically onto the -request address) + No hardwired format for (un)subscribe requests (i.e. new subscribers need not be educated, unsubscribing users do not need to remember any particular syntax) + *Intelligent* autoremoval of addresses from the list that cause too many bounces + Submissions can be limited to people on the accept list (which could be the current list of subscribers) + The fully automated subscription mechanism allows for a reject list of unwanted subscribers and a general address screening mechanism which allows you to control exactly who is allowed to subscribe + Optional implicit subscription upon first submission to the list + MIME-compliant auto-digest-generation (configurable per list) + Joint management of several mailinglists possible + Customisation per mailinglist or mailinglist group possible (simply remove or create the desired hardlinks) + A listmaintainer can be assigned per list; miscellaneous requests that couldn't be handled by the list automatically are then forwarded to his mail address (instead of being accumulated in a file) + Allows for remote maintenance of any mailinglist by a listmaintainer + Integrated archiving service + Integrated diagnostic aid to give hints to the maintainer about possible problems + Moderated mailinglists with an arbitrary number of moderators + Automatically eliminates duplicate submissions + You can set up a mailinglist to function as a standalone mail archive server + Extended MIME support (autorecognition of well known file formats) + The archive server can send arbitrarily long (even binary) files in MIME-multipart mails -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). In this signature, the concluding three words `were left out'. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 5 15:25:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA20696; Tue, 5 Jul 1994 21:56:23 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA20689; Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:56:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199407052156.OAA20689@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers Subject: New list manager for List-Managers Date: Tue, 05 Jul 1994 14:56:16 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch is taking over as manager of List-Managers. Michael has been a frequent contributor to List-Managers, and currently manages the Simpsons and Sinead O'Connor mailing lists. I'm completely overworked these days, and unable to give the list the attention it deserves. The list will remain here at GreatCircle.COM, and all administrative procedures and so forth will remain unchanged; it will simply be Michael dealing with bounces and so forth rather than me. All correspondence regarding the list should continue to be sent to Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM (for all routine requests) or List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM (for stuff that absolutely requires a human). I'm sure you'll join me in wishing Michael the best of luck. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 00:53:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA06389; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:01:54 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA06383; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:01:47 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24320 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:04:45 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA23750 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:04:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Date: Wed, 06 Jul 94 19:04:44 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I use the standard list-request@site address for administrative requests. Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they join the list. I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request address): >Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 17:47:56 -0700 >Message-Id: <199407070047.RAA06372@pacific.pacific.net> >X-Sender: dejong@pacific.pacific.net >To: fatfree@hustle.rahul.net >From: dejong@pacific.pacific.net (Philip DeJong) >Subject: REMOVE > >I am losing my sense of humor with his nightmare of a group. I pulled > 108 messages out of my mailbox from the weekend. I have requested > remove now for the last 2 weeks. If I am not off this group by yesterday > I am seriously considering the following alternatives. > 1. Repost the three most disgusting stories I can find from >alt.sex.etc. 2. Repost the largest binary picture file I can find of a >suitable fat person. > 3. Change my email adress and sue. > > I understand from a previous posting that these removes are done by hand. > I have been patient, but this group has turned by mail box into a dump. > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE > >Phil DeJong >dejong@pacific.net I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 01:18:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA06410; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:10:52 GMT Received: from SLUAVA.SLU.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA29864; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:57:08 -0700 Received: from SLUVCA.SLU.EDU by SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (PMDF V4.2-13 #5070) id <01HEDREY3BQI8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:01:40 CST Date: Wed, 06 Jul 1994 10:01:39 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Milles Subject: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01HEDREY3LDO8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO X-Envelope-to: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Feel free to reproduce or distribute as you wish. I appreciate any comments or suggestions. Jim Milles (listowner, NETTRAIN@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu) Head of Computer Services Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu ----------------------- DISCUSSION LISTS: MAIL SERVER COMMANDS Version 1.11 July 4, 1994 James Milles Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu 1. E-mail discussion lists constitute one of the most popular methods of group communication on the Internet. Discussion lists support group communication by providing, at minimum, two basic functions: (1) the ability to distribute a message to a group of people by sending it to a single, central address, and (2) the ability to quietly join and leave the list at any time. 1.1. In order to provide these separate functions, an e-mail discussion list typically has two addresses associated with it: (1) a "listname address," the address to which you send any messages that you intend to be read by the list subscribers; and (2) an "administrative address," the address to which you send any commands or requests that affect your subscription to the list. It's easy to remember this distinction by thinking of your local newspaper: the first address is somewhat analogous to sending a "letter to the editor," while the second is like sending a letter to the newspaper's subscription office. 1.2. With most discussion lists, the "administrative address" is a computer program that allows the subscriber to subscribe and unsubscribe automatically, without external intervention. There are at least five popular mail server programs used to manage Internet discussion lists: REVISED LISTSERV (also called BITNET LISTSERV), Unix ListProcessor (or Listproc), Mailbase, Mailserv, and Majordomo. The commands for subscribing and unsubscribing under most of these programs are the same; however, other useful commands differ greatly from one program to another, and some programs support features that others do not. 1.3. This document does not describe all the features supported by any of these programs, only those most commonly used. For more information on any of these programs, send a message containing only the word "help" to the appropriate mail server. Additional programs and commands will be added in future revisions of this document. 1.4. The latest version of this document is available by e-mail and by anonymous ftp: E-mail: Send a message containing only the line GET MAILSER CMD NETTRAIN F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu. FTP: Anonymous ftp to ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu cd /nettrain get mailser.cmd -- or -- anonymous ftp to sluaxa.slu.edu cd /pub/millesjg get mailser.cmd 2. When you subscribe to a list, you will typically receive a "welcome" message, describing the purpose of the list and telling you how to unsubscribe. Save this message! It tells you which program the discussion list is run under, and how to get further help. 2.1. Mail servers can be confusing. Many people use the term "listserv" generically, to refer to any list mail server program. To make things worse, the Unix ListProcessor (listproc) program was originally called "listserv," just like REVISED LISTSERV. Many listproc hosts are still configured with the name "listserv," and will accept commands addressed to "listserv@[host]" as well as to the correct name, "listproc@[host]." 2.2. Usually--but not always--you can find out which program a discussion list is run under by examining the message headers. For instance, listproc lists should include a line saying "Unix ListProcessor." However, the best practice is to save any "welcome" message you receive when you subscribe, and to note at that time which set of commands is applicable. 3. Remember to send all commands to the "administrative address"--[mailserver]@[host]--not to the "listname address". [Mailserver] is the program that maintains the list (either listproc, LISTSERV, mailbase, mailserv, or majordomo); [host] is the address of the host computer (for example, ucdavis.edu or cleo.murdoch.edu.au). 3.1. Be sure to leave the Subject: line blank, and to delete any signature file if your mailer allows you to do so. 3.2. Always include the name of the list in the message to [mailserver]@[host]. Most mailserver sites maintain many different discussion lists, and it is essential that you tell the mail server which list you are talking about. 3.3. For instance, to join the discussion list law-lib@ucdavis.edu, send an e-mail message containing only the command SUBSCRIBE LAW-LIB John Doe to listproc@ucdavis.edu. The other examples used below are: INT-LAW@UMINN1.BITNET (REVISED LISTSERV), law-europe@mailbase.ac.uk (Mailbase), envirolaw@oregon.uoregon.edu (Mailserv),and elaw-j@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Majordomo). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Join a list: Listproc: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE LAW-LIB John Doe) LISTSERV: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE INT-LAW John Doe) Mailbase: JOIN [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., JOIN LAW-EUROPE John Doe) Mailserv: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ENVIROLAW John Doe) Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname] (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ELAW-J) Leave a list: Listproc: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] LISTSERV: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Mailbase: LEAVE [listname] Mailserv: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Receive the list in digest format (multiple messages compiled into a single mailing, usually daily or weekly): Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL DIGEST LISTSERV: SET [listname] DIGEST Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname]-DIGEST (in the same message, unsubscribe from the undigested version:) UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Cancel digest format; receive the list as separate mailings: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] MAIL Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname]-DIGEST (in the same message, subscribe to the undigested version:) SUBSCRIBE [listname] Suspend mail temporarily (without unsubscribing): Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL POSTPONE LISTSERV: SET [listname] NOMAIL Mailbase: SUSPEND MAIL [listname] Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Resume receipt of messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK -- or -- SET [listname] MAIL DIGEST LISTSERV: SET [listname] MAIL -- or -- SET [listname] DIGEST Mailbase: RESUME MAIL [listname] Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Receive copies of your own messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] REPRO (to simply receive an automatic acknowledgement that your message has been sent to the list, use:) SET [listname] ACK Mailbase: Standard feature; you always receive your own messages. Mailserv: Same as mailbase. Majordomo: Same as mailbase. Do not receive copies of your own messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL NOACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] NOREPRO Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Obtain a list of subscribers: Listproc: RECIPIENTS [listname] LISTSERV: REVIEW [listname] F=MAIL (can also be sorted by name or by country:) REVIEW [listname] BY NAME F=MAIL -- or -- REVIEW [listname] BY COUNTRY F=MAIL Mailbase: REVIEW [listname] Mailserv: SEND/LIST [listname] Majordomo: WHO [listname] Obtain a list of archive files: Listproc: INDEX [listname] LISTSERV: INDEX [listname] Mailbase: INDEX [listname] Mailserv: INDEX [listname] Majordomo: INDEX [listname] Retrieve an archive file: Listproc: GET [listname] [filename] (e.g., GET LAW-LIB feb94) LISTSERV: GET [filename] [filetype] [listname] F=MAIL (e.g., GET INT-LAW LOG9406 INT-LAW F=MAIL) Mailbase: SEND [listname] [filename] (e.g., SEND LAW-EUROPE 05-1994) Mailserv: SEND [filename] (e.g., GET ENVIROLAW smith.txt) Majordomo: GET [listname] [filename] (e.g., GET ELAW-J BOYLE.TXT) Search the archives for keywords (where available--some lists do not keep archives): Listproc: SEARCH [listname] "[keywords]" Boolean searches are possible using the symbols "&" (and), "|" (or), and "~" (not). For example, to search for "mead" or "mdc" in law-lib, use the command SEARCH LAW-LIB "mead | mdc" LISTSERV: LISTSERV uses a sophisticated and powerful search engine that does lots of neat things like finding "sounds like" matches; however, it uses a difficult, batch-coded search language to construct queries. I find it useful to keep a "template" file in my Internet account, and then edit the file as appropriate when I need to do a search. Here's the search file: // JOB Echo=No Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search nafta in int-law since 93/6/1 Index /* To run a search, send this file in an e-mail message to LISTSERV@[host]. The Search line can be modified as needed. The date is optional; Boolean combinations, nesting with parentheses, and a great number of other capabilities are supported. For a full description of LISTSERV search functions, send the command GET LISTDB MEMO F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UMINN1.BITNET. Once you've received a list of messages matching your query, send another message to LISTSERV@[host] to retrieve the specific messages you want: // JOB Echo=No Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search nafta in int-law since 93/6/1 Print all of 636 637 640 /* Mailbase: Archives of Mailbase lists are searchable through the Mailbase Gopher (gopher mailbase.ac.uk). Mailbase does not support batch searching by e-mail request. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. ----------------------------------------------------------------- James Milles Voice: (314) 658-2759 Head of Computer Services FAX: (314) 658-2966 Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu 3700 Lindell Blvd. St. Louis, MO 63108 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 03:56:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA09380; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:38:20 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA09374; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:38:07 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:48 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:46 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199407070940.1954.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: MILLESJG@sluvca.slu.edu CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Jim Milles's message of Wed, 06 Jul 1994 10:01:39 -0600 (CST) <01HEDREY3LDO8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing missing is how to specify your mail address with each of these systems. Am I wrong, or is it only Majordomo which supports this (IMO, of course) _essential_ feature? I have to resort to faking mail all too often. Also, I think you should explain the role of request addresses! They are not mentioned at all, and I think that there are at least as many lists with a separate request address as there is LISTPROC and whatever. Kjetil T. PS. Fix your mail software so that it sends mail to the correct address. The local part of the address should _not_ be tampered with. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 04:05:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA09397; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:44:11 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA09391; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:44:01 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:24 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199407070946.2023.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Michelle Dick's message of Wed, 06 Jul 94 19:04:44 -0700 <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Michelle Dick: | I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's | address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? | I have never received a threat like that, but I would follow my standard procedure for mis-directed requests first, and hope he would follow its direction before the "deadline". I probably would have removed him just in time otherwise. Here's my form letter: --------------- In order to unsubscribe, you need to send the message to ********-request@ifi.uio.no. It will reach me there. I'm not honouring your request, although it would be just as easy for me to do so, in the hope that you will learn from this, and never mistake the mailing list address from the request address again. --------------- (my lists aren't so volumnious that I can't keep an eye on them) Quite a few are peeved by this letter, but hopefully it helps them think twice about correct procedure on leaving their next list. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 05:36:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10617; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:18:59 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10611; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:18:47 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA29568; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:20:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071220.IAA29568@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:20:51 EDT In-Reply-To: Jim Milles "Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands" (Jul 6, 10:01am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Jim Milles Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Feel free to reproduce or distribute as you wish. I appreciate any > comments or suggestions. Very write-up. Comment below. > 2.1. Mail servers can be confusing. Many people use the > term "listserv" generically, to refer to any list mail > server program. To make things worse, the Unix > ListProcessor (listproc) program was originally called > "listserv," just like REVISED LISTSERV. Many listproc hosts > are still configured with the name "listserv," and will > accept commands addressed to "listserv@[host]" as well as to > the correct name, "listproc@[host]." This, and the next paragraph imply that it is in some way "correct" to use the name of the mailing list manager (MLM) as the address to send to. In fact, it's just a common convention, by no means universal. To me it's an example of data-coupling that will come back to bite you eventually. --Mike From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:29:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA11332; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:19:25 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA11325; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 06:19:16 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:14 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:12 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:12 +0200 Message-Id: <199407071322.4378.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: Michael H. Morse's message of Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 EDT <199407071236.IAA29594@z.nsf.gov> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Michael Morse: | Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead | of going to the return desk, you went to the cashier that sold you | the stuff. The person there tells you, "I'm sorry, you went to the | wrong desk. You have to go to the right desk. Yes, I could just as | easily accept your return here, and save you some trouble, but then | you'll never learn the correct way to return things to this store." | Would you still shop there? Would you have a nice feeling about that | person? Would you appreciate being educated? | Poor analogy. Make it something like this: Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead of going to the return desk, you ask everyone in the store if they can help you. Eventually, you come across one of the employees who's off duty, and who tells you: "I could follow you over to the returns desk and help you, but I'd rather you walked over there yourself and asked whoever's standing there." _I_ would feel silly for bothering so many people needlessly. However, I have added a paragraph to my text, perhaps making it clearer why I do this. ----- > You have just sent your request to hundreds of people worldwide > instead of using the proper channel. > > In order to unsubscribe, you need to send the message to > ********-request@ifi.uio.no. It will reach me there. I'm not > honouring your request, although it would be just as easy for me to do > so, in the hope that you will learn from this, and never mistake the > mailing list address from the request address again. ----- Kjetil T. PS. Of course, there may be something subtle in my way of expression which puts off native speakers. Suggestions for improvements in personal mail, please. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:35:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10764; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:27:52 GMT Received: from SUVM.SYR.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10750; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:27:35 -0700 Received: from spider.syr.edu by SUVM.SYR.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 07 Jul 94 08:31:06 LCL Received: by spider.syr.edu (5.0/Spike-2.0) id AA11782; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:32:23 +0500 Message-Id: <9407071232.AA11782@spider.syr.edu> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, jmwobus@mailbox.syr.edu Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jul 1994 19:04:44 PDT." <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 08:32:21 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" content-length: 897 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net>you write: >I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a >member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request >address): ... My advice is: (1) Take the person off the list. (2) Send a reminder to the list as to how to get off. Unfortunately, the person who can't deal with all the mail and is desperate to get off may well miss it, but it can't hurt. (3) Send the person a calm, reasoned message about what is wrong with what they did and what they should have done. Write it and wait a day or two before posting it. Remove any trace of animosity no matter how much they deserve it: this is business, not pleasure. (4) Forward their original message to their postmaster and network provider as well as cc your reply. Forward/cc any followups. John Wobus Syracuse University From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:56:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10877; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:33:08 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10869; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:32:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA29594; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071236.IAA29594@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 EDT In-Reply-To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme "Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members" (Jul 7, 11:46am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme , List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Quite a few are peeved by this letter, And rightly so. > but hopefully it helps them > think twice about correct procedure on leaving their next list. Actually, it mostly allows you to look down on them. In the words of Kris Kristofferson, "Everybody needs somebody they can look down on, If you can't find nobody else, than he'p yourself to me." Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead of going to the return desk, you went to the cashier that sold you the stuff. The person there tells you, "I'm sorry, you went to the wrong desk. You have to go to the right desk. Yes, I could just as easily accept your return here, and save you some trouble, but then you'll never learn the correct way to return things to this store." Would you still shop there? Would you have a nice feeling about that person? Would you appreciate being educated? OK, so maybe you don't care about what people think of you. The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will teach them. --Mike From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:05:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA10213; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:55:16 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA10207; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 04:55:05 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA00534; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:57:59 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA07348; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:57:57 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12921; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:54:36 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:48:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I > use the standard list-request@site address for administrative > requests. > Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the > traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use > of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting > address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they > join the list. > I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a ^^^^^^ strong word > member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request > address): > message - plea - to be removed deleted. > > I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. > But what do you do when you receive threats like this? The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, nothing more. Your list is a service. I've seen a few complaints from people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow the procedure. Absurd! The frustration of your customer suggests that the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: adapt to the customer. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:16:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA11129; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:59:24 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA11117; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:59:02 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA16276 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:01:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071301.AA16276@cs.umb.edu> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jul 1994 19:04:44 PDT." <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 09:01:32 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I send them a copy of the instructions for being removed from the list. In the case you mentioned, above I would tell them that they can not not be removed from the list unless they use the proper list removal directions. At the end of the instructions, add a blurb that says: It is possible that you can't get email to the proper address, just in case that may be a problem, I have forwarded this message to your sites adminstrative and technical contacts, who should be able to diagnose the problem. (You don't mention that the only problem is the one between the senders ears). Then CC the sites technical/administrative liason as listed in whois. Of course you do include the orignal message verbatim just as if you were responding to it. In message <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net>, Michelle Dick writes: > >I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I >use the standard list-request@site address for administrative >requests. > >Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the >traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use >of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting >address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they >join the list. > >I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a >member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request >address): > >>Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 17:47:56 -0700 >>Message-Id: <199407070047.RAA06372@pacific.pacific.net> >>X-Sender: dejong@pacific.pacific.net >>To: fatfree@hustle.rahul.net >>From: dejong@pacific.pacific.net (Philip DeJong) >>Subject: REMOVE >> >>I am losing my sense of humor with his nightmare of a group. I pulled > >> 108 messages out of my mailbox from the weekend. I have requested > >> remove now for the last 2 weeks. If I am not off this group by yesterday >> I am seriously considering the following alternatives. >> 1. Repost the three most disgusting stories I can find from >>alt.sex.etc. 2. Repost the largest binary picture file I can find of a > >>suitable fat person. >> 3. Change my email adress and sue. >> >> I understand from a previous posting that these removes are done by hand. > >> I have been patient, but this group has turned by mail box into a dump. > >> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE > >> >>Phil DeJong >>dejong@pacific.net > >I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. >But what do you do when you receive threats like this? > >-- >Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA > Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:46:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA12137; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:43:01 GMT Received: from yukon.cren.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA12131; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:42:54 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with SMTP id <79972(6)>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:49 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 05:46:22 EDT." <199407070946.2023.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:41 -0400 From: Marco Hernandez Message-Id: <94Jul7.104549edt.79972(6)@yukon.cren.org> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > +--- Michelle Dick: > | I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's > | address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? > | > > I have never received a threat like that, but I would follow my > standard procedure for mis-directed requests first, and hope he would > follow its direction before the "deadline". I probably would have > removed him just in time otherwise. > I have received a threat which was similar (actually on of my list owners did) and before I knew it, my system was being bomarded. The guy set up a loop via the elm filter program ... This was because he could not unsub from a listproc list (He never bothered to read the welcome message or contact the owner or get the on line help ??? You figure). I eventually had to set up zmailer to refuse all mail from the host, so he probably got all the bounced when his mailer timed out ... But I think there is little you can do. Put out an FAQ to the lists twice per month ... (I try and stress this to the list owners) ... There is no protection against ignorant people ... /marco From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:55:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA11993; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:33:28 GMT Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA11985; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:33:15 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA15778; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:36:11 -0400 Received: by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA27377; Wed, 6 Jul 94 10:17:25 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Cc: artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 07:48:16 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Amoskeag X-Last-Cd: Santana, "Sacred Fire" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1192 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, >nothing more. Your list is a service. I've seen a few complaints from >people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost >as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow >the procedure. Absurd! The frustration of your customer suggests that >the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for >people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: >adapt to the customer. The members of the mailing lists that I run will become my "customers" when they begin to pay me a fee for the "service" that I am providing to them. Until that happens, the mailing lists will be run in any fashion I choose; those who do not care for what they receive are always free to unsubscribe and/or seek other mailing lists and/or start their own. The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, this difficulty will pass. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 08:16:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA12374; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:13:30 GMT Received: from athens.dis.anl.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA12368; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:13:10 -0700 Received: from athens.dis.anl.gov (bordeaux.dis.anl.gov [146.137.176.15]) by athens.dis.anl.gov (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA01306; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:15:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> To: Grayson Walker cc: Michelle Dick , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 07:48:16 CDT." Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0500 From: William LeFebvre Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: > Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 07:48:16 CDT > From: Grayson Walker > To: Michelle Dick > Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, > nothing more. Your list is a service. My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to take since I am a volunteer for this task. This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they would and should reasonably expect to be catered to, pampered, and be treated as if "the customer is always right". But that's NOT what we have here. We have volunteers donating time, resources, and knowledge to provide an information resource. That is no longer a seller/customer relationship. It is now more along the lines of a cooperative collection of participants. > I've seen a few complaints from > people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost > as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow > the procedure. Absurd! Only if you view the mailing list users as customers have paid for a service. They have paid nothing for it, and the person running the show has received nothing for his efforts. It is not all that absurd when the volunteer is trying to do everything he can to keep the monster of a list from consuming all his spare time (some of us DO have real lives, you know). So let's look at it from the other end. You'd think that list users would have some sympathy for those of us who are donating a substantial portion of our time to providing them with an information source, and would be willing to do what they can to help us out, by following the simple guidelines we set forth. These aren't arbitrary guidelines: they exist to make things a little easier for us. Instead all we get from some of these folks is complaints about things not working right, complaints about us not acting on our requests within finve minutes after they sent it, complaints about the archive site, or the absence of an archive site, or about not getting their mail, or about getting too much mail, or about people abusing the list, or about people sending out remove requests to the list, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I guess I've been doing this for too long..... > The frustration of your customer suggests that > the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for > people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: > adapt to the customer. But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent the message, or the hundreds whining about it? If the former, then we quietly process the request and everyone gets used to the idea that that's how administrative requests are handled, and more "customers" are inconvenienced by people sending administrative mail to the entire list. If the latter, then we do something similar to the very thing you are objecting to. Either way we make some of our "customers" unhappy. So NOW what do you suggest? William LeFebvre Decision and Information Sciences Argonne National Laboratory lefebvre@dis.anl.gov From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 10:20:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA13896; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:00:39 GMT Received: from suntan.Tandem.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA13880; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:00:14 -0700 Received: from devserver.dsg.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA29796; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:49 PDT Received: from work.dsg.tandem.com by devserver.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6main.931028) id AA15889; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:48 PDT Received: by work.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.931028) id AA05721; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:42 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:42 PDT From: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9407071701.AA05721@work.dsg.tandem.com> To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for people to send administrative >requests to the entire lists. The solution: adapt to the customer. Sorry, wrong answer. Thank you for playing. As the person who wrote the first pass at the sub/unsub filter Brent has in Majordomo, I rather disagree. Why? Well, because sometimes the list administrator is a kind volunteer who does nothing but run the list. He/she does not read the list, she/he has no interest whatsoever in the list. This is not a hypothetical case; there's a fellow up in Canada (nstn.ca?) that hosts lists at his site because he's got the software, and when you've got X number of lists, what's one more? I can pretty well guarantee you that he's not reading all of the lists he hosts. Shoot, with some software (e.g. BITNET LISTSERV) the list can be almost entirely automated, no human intervention whatsoever. The thing is, you can yell, scream, shout, whatever, at the list, and no-one will be able to help you. -- Scott Hazen Mueller scott@zorch.sf-bay.org From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 11:58:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA15668; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:37:51 GMT Received: from pooh.ucsf.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA15656; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:37:37 -0700 Received: from localhost by pooh.ucsf.edu (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id LAA29542; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199407071840.LAA29542@pooh.ucsf.edu> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: artemis@rahul.net (Michelle Dick) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:34 -0800 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> from "Michelle Dick" at Jul 6, 94 07:04:44 pm From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1691 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the > traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use > of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting > address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they > join the list. This is a human problem and can only be taken so far with software fixes and filters. Since you don't read the list, how about asking for volunteers who do read your list to be 'deputized' as list.cops? These junior G-men could take several form letters (possibly just the welcome instructions or FAQ written by you) and send them out to people who are 'having difficulties.' I think this would be very appropriate for a high-volume list: there's no reason to do it all yourself. Some problems to avoid: have only one or two 'deputies', since you want to avoid FAQ-bombing the person who may already be overloaded with mail from the list the letters they send should explicitly state who's in charge (you) so that the helpers don't get asked to unsubscribe, retrieve files, etc. if the helpers shouldn't act like moderators and discuss content and appropriateness of letters unless they want to be treated like moderators. you probably want to avoid too much formality (rotating shifts, who's 'on call,' etc.), since you're trying to save yourself work, not make more of it. caveat: I haven't ever actually tried this, so I don't know if it would work. But these kinds of volunteers naturally arise in many lists and newsgroups (I know I have sent out FAQs to people), and I don't see why formally asking someone to do it would be any different. john troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 12:18:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA16237; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:05:53 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA16229; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:05:41 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA20164; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:19 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27882; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: Grayson Walker , artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > The members of the mailing lists that I run will become my "customers" > when they begin to pay me a fee for the "service" that I am providing > to them. Until that happens, the mailing lists will be run in any > fashion I choose; those who do not care for what they receive are always > free to unsubscribe and/or seek other mailing lists and/or start their own. > I have to agree with this one. I try to give list members what they want, but I'm putting in the time, effort (and money!) - they are privileged guests. It does spoil the party when guests get out of hand! -Sharon From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 12:58:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA16694; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:46:57 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA16688; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:46:38 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA14065; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:49:36 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA09676; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:49:35 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15416; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:46:52 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: William LeFebvre Cc: Grayson Walker , Michelle Dick , list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, > > nothing more. Your list is a service. > > My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I > receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places > these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary > concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing > my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to > take since I am a volunteer for this task. I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. > This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these > folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. > But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other > "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent > the message, or the hundreds whining about it? If the former, then we > quietly process the request and everyone gets used to the idea that > that's how administrative requests are handled, and more "customers" > are inconvenienced by people sending administrative mail to the entire > list. If the latter, then we do something similar to the very thing > you are objecting to. Either way we make some of our "customers" > unhappy. So NOW what do you suggest? Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. Until the processes deal with all the needs of the service providers and their consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Just because we cannot solve the problem given today's software or technology in no way prevents us from recognizing the flaws in the processes. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:23:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17194; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:23:35 GMT Received: from saimiri.primate.wisc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17188; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:23:14 -0700 Received: by saimiri.primate.wisc.edu; id PAA22644; 8.6.8.1/41.8; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:26:25 -0500 From: Software Development Message-Id: <199407072026.PAA22644@saimiri.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 03:32:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1730 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the > Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. They may be customers, and they may be paying, but this paragraph cuts no ice with me, and I suspect with many of use who run lists for nothing. I sympathize with subscribers who have to pay per-message when they get too many messages, but not overly much. Your bringing "paying customer" into the equation has little meaning for me. They're paying *someone else* to get the messages. Someone *else* is making money off my volunteer efforts, and you're expecting me to shoulder the burden of providing paid-level support? Sorry. I'm not advocating telling subscribers to take a hike, but they're accessing a service which is offered by me for free. If they have to pay someone else to get it, that doesn't obligate me to provide the level of support that would come were I billing them for access. > I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without > compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the > prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. Again, they're not paying me. Someone else is issuing the bill. And taking in the money. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:30:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17337; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:30:30 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17330; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:30:12 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA02758; Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:20:04 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06433; Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:23:10 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:23:10 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407072023.AA06433@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible >in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots >of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Agreed - but they aren't my customers. They may be paying someone else to get into the same general location as my service, but they are NOT my paying customers. There is no distinction in my mind between compuserve.com, aol.com, flamtap.lex.ky.us, saarbrucken.de, and ncsc.mil; they're all the same thing to my list. >We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain >courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that >some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. Agreed - the carrot wins more often than the stick. However, one must yet wield both, no? >> But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other >> "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent >> the message, or the hundreds whining about it? > >Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. I don't know of too many services which cater to every whim/need of every customer with any success *or* longevity. "Adapting" to 5000 subscribers gives me nightmares - this is a hobby/contribution for me, not a business. >Until the processes deal with all the needs of the service providers >and their consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Hmm...it seems to me that, if the processes ever managed to "deal with" all the needs of the providers and customers, there would be no need for new processes. >Just because >we cannot solve the problem given today's software or technology in >no way prevents us from recognizing the flaws in the processes. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- ment; why should we avoid it here? --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 13:38:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17227; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:24:30 GMT Received: from enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17211; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:24:13 -0700 Received: by enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca id <607880>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:27:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists From: "C. Harald Koch" To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:27:09 -0400 Cc: lefebvre@athens.dis.anl.gov, gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us, artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 03:32:08 pm Phone: +1 416 978 0992 Organization: UTCC Network & Operations Services, External Network Fac. Mgmt. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1835 Message-Id: <94Jul7.162711edt.607880@enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the > Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. I'm sorry, I still think you're wrong. Someone else suggested a 'guest' metaphor; this is perfect, as far as I'm concerned. The people you are referring to are paying a network access provider for network access. They are *not* paying *me* for my mailing list. You are thinking along the lines of monolithic information service providers like Compu$erve; this model does not hold for the Internet. I don't have the right to abuse your hospitality just because I paid tolls on the roads I used to drive to your house; similarly, I don't have the right to abuse you or your mailing list just because I'm paying a network service provider for access. There *are* organisations out there that run 'commercial' information services over the Internet; you subscribe to their publication, and they use the Internet to deliver it to you. An excellent example of this is ClariNet, which delivers news-wire information over NetNews. *They* have customers; I do not. -- C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "It is fruitless to attempt to indoctrinate University of Toronto | a super-annuated canine with innovative External Networking Fac. Mgmt. | maneuvers." chk@utcc.utoronto.ca | -Dr. SNMP, The Simple Times, v2n3 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:39:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17468; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:39:44 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17461; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:39:36 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17029 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:42:31 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09575 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:42:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072042.AA09575@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Date: Thu, 07 Jul 94 13:42:29 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Resolution: I removed the poster from the list, had his address blocked from posting to the list, sent a copy of the email-bomb threat to his postmaster and asked that they inform the user of proper email behavior. The postmaster wrote back, apologizing for the user and letting me know that he had so advised the user. Note that I was not complaining about errant add/drop requests in my initial letter, but rather the threat to send large binaries to my large list (which is a simple reflector at this time). Given the damage potential, I have no choice but to take all threats seriously. Proper subscription info is sent in the new-subscriber letter as well as posted every other week or so. I also happen to know that several of my subscribers do email errant requests with the proper information. I, myself, do not read all the posted messages on the list (it's an extremely high-volume list), so cannot individually email responses to errant requests. I spend 10-15 hours per week maintaining the list and the associated recipe archive. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 13:45:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA16967; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:10:21 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA16946; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:09:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072009.NAA16946@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 13:09:48 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson Walker writes: # > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, # > > nothing more. Your list is a service. # > # > My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I # > receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places # > these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary # > concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing # > my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to # > take since I am a volunteer for this task. # # I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible # in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots # of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them # pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- # they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the # Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive # financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one # more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. Fine, they're somebody's customers, but they're not _my_ customers. I didn't solicit their "business". If they want "better service", they can damn well pay _me_ for it; what they pay somebody else (their service provider) is irrelevant. # We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain # courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that # some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. Talk about arrogance... # > This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these # > folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they # # I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without # compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the # prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. OK, fine, I've just decided that Great Circle Associates is going to charge $10/year for each subscription to List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, payable in advance by credit card or check in U.S. dollars drawn on a U.S. bank. For service problems, you can call our 900 number, and be billed at $1/minute directly to your phone bill. Non-US customers are just out of luck when it comes to service calls, because we can't figure out how an easy way to bill them for it. Are you telling me that would be an _improvement_? # Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. Until the # processes deal with all the needs of the service providers and their # consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Just because we cannot solve # the problem given today's software or technology in no way prevents us # from recognizing the flaws in the processes. Tell you what... You run your lists your way, and we'll run ours our way. Have a good time; thanks for sharing. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:46:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17583; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:46:34 GMT Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17576; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:46:25 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id NAA10230; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:49:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:49:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072049.NAA10230@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists References: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> X-Attribution: JRhine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson> If they paying somebody for a service you provide without Grayson> compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless Grayson> of the prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." -- Thomas Paine From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:12:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA17862; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:12:17 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA17855; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:12:04 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29994; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:15:07 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02352; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:13:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:13:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Software Development Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072026.PAA22644@saimiri.primate.wisc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I'm not advocating telling subscribers to take a hike, but they're > accessing a service which is offered by me for free. If they have to > pay someone else to get it, that doesn't obligate me to provide the > level of support that would come were I billing them for access. Same here. When they sign up for lists, they are requesting an extra service - one I provide. And since I'm the one paying to have the list on a commercial provider - the biggest cost is to me - by far. -Sharon From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:56:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA18594; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:56:30 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA18324; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:39:00 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07581; Thu, 7 Jul 94 17:41:29 EDT Message-Id: <9407072141.AA07581@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 7 Jul 1994 17:03 EDT Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in >their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in >learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will >teach them. That pretty much sums it up. I have a standard message that's firm but not insulting (I don't think) but makes it quite clear that they have to resend the request. Based on my experiences, I would recommend the following: 1. Do not ignore the request as it will generate repeat requests. At this point, you should be considering the other members of the list rather than trying to punish the errant one. I send a "canned" message that tells them the right way to do it, and indicates that they need to resend the message. However, I delete them anyway at my next deletion interval (my list is manually administered) even if they don't. 2. Post periodic reminders. Since this can be construed as noise too, I try to piggy-back this with other administrative messages or my own contributions to the list. But then it must be the very first paragraph, with suitable emphasis. A good time to do it is just after someone posts to the wrong address. I find that for some reason, these unsubscription requests to the whole list seem to cluster together. Perhaps people see the one message and say, "Oh, so *that's* how one unsubscribes to the list." 3. I liked to suggestion someone had earlier about capitalizing just the -REQUEST part of the address; I've used it since and found it helps. 4. I'd like to see a general capability in mailing list servers like majordomo that allows a "Message of the Day" to be prepended and/or appended to the *body* of messages sent to the list. However, there should also be a parameter so that only every N'th message contains this message--I would set N to about 10 (which would be once every 2 days for my list), and put a 1- or 2-line message at the front. A more general capability that allowed you to rotate through a small set of messages would be nice too. 5. Despite all this, you will STILL get messages sent to the whole list. You have to accept that that's part of what you signed up for when you decided to be the list owner. The best you can do is to keep the number small. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 15:18:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA18938; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:12:56 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA18930; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:12:40 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA18675; Thu, 7 Jul 94 18:15:12 EDT Message-Id: <9407072215.AA18675@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 7 Jul 1994 18:00 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'm sorry, I still think you're wrong. Someone else suggested a 'guest' >metaphor; this is perfect, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, this is a good metaphor, especially since it permits both viewpoints. And it emphasizes the responsibilities of both parties, guests and host. It's your party [usually open house], so *you* get to decide what kind of a host you want to be. You can take the position that *you're* paying for the food and *you're* opening up your house to strangers, and *you've* got to deal with cleaning up; so you are certainly entitled to be strict and throw out on his ear the first guest who put a moist glass down without a coaster. Or you can be the gracious host who say, "Oh, that was just an ugly trinket anyway," when a guest knocks over and breaks your Ming Dynasty vase, and generally treat all your guests like royalty. Or something in betweeen. The point is: it's your list, so you can make it the way you want. But just as with your real-life guests, you will have the reputation of being the type of host that you are. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 16:19:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA19459; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:35:43 GMT Received: from suntan.Tandem.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA19437; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:35:10 -0700 Received: from devserver.dsg.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA07155; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:41 PDT Received: from work.dsg.tandem.com by devserver.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6main.931028) id AA21535; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:41 PDT Received: by work.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.931028) id AA12778; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:39 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:39 PDT From: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9407072237.AA12778@work.dsg.tandem.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Guest metaphor Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The point is: it's your list, so you can make it the way you want. >But just as with your real-life guests, you will have the reputation of >being the type of host that you are. Yah. But. If a guest pees in the sink, and then complains because there's no toilet paper nearby, I think I'm perfectly entitled to tell them to use the toilet, and NO I WON'T put toilet paper by the sink. \scott From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 23:21:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id XAA20589; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 23:21:26 GMT Received: from SLUAVA.SLU.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA20582; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:21:14 -0700 Received: from SLUVCA.SLU.EDU by SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (PMDF V4.2-13 #5070) id <01HEFNIEIWPS8WY84V@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:26:40 CST Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 18:26:40 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Milles Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01HEFNIEKILE8WY84V@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO X-Envelope-to: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you all who offered suggestions on the document I posted here yesterday. I have revised the document, "Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands," to reflect many of your suggestions for improvement. Rather than repeat the entire document, here are the relevant additions: >1.4. This document also does not deal with discussion lists >to which one subscribes by sending a message to >"[listname]-request." There are a great many discussion >lists of this type; some are distribution lists maintained >manually by the listowner, while others use some form of >mailer software ranging from a simple script to a fairly >sophisticated mailing list program. Some require that >subscription requests by placed in the message text; others >require them to be included in the Subject: line. Because >of the variety of methods of maintaining these lists, it is >impossible to generalize about their command features. >However, as a rule, assume that any discussion list with an >administrative address of "[listname]-request" is maintained >manually by a human being. Accordingly, you should >subscribe by sending a friendly message in plain English to >"[listname]-request." If a program responds with >instructions for subscribing, follow the instructions. > Mailserv: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname > (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ENVIROLAW John Doe) > (Optionally, include the e-mail address at > which you wish to receive list mail:) > SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname [address] > Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname] > (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ELAW-J) > (Optionally, include the e-mail address at > which you wish to receive list mail:) > SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname [address] > Mailserv: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] > (UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] [address] > if you subscribed under a different e-mail > address.) > Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] > (UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] [address] > if you subscribed under a different e-mail > address.) >(Note: with those programs that support the digest option, >whether or not to offer the digest format is within the >discretion of the listowner; consequently not all lists offer >digests.) The entire document is available as follows: E-mail: Send a message containing only the line GET MAILSER CMD NETTRAIN F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu. FTP: Anonymous ftp to ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu cd /nettrain get mailser.cmd -- or -- anonymous ftp to sluaxa.slu.edu cd /pub/millesjg get mailser.cmd Thanks again for your help. Jim Milles (listowner, NETTRAIN@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu) Head of Computer Services Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 16:27:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA19547; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:42:17 GMT Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA19536; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:41:59 -0700 Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (pjg@localhost) by urth (8.6.8/8.6.4) with ESMTP id SAA06624; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:44:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199407072244.SAA06624@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: Grayson Walker cc: William LeFebvre , Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-reply-to: A message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 15:32:08 EDT." Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 18:44:35 -0400 From: Paul Graham Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk it seems you are misplacing responsibility. when i sign-up for a new service i must be prepared for difficulty. if i am disenchanted i take my patronage elsewhere. this is sadly the way the entire world works and it remains incumbent upon the patron to express dismay by spending time elsewhere. this, of course, presumes there are no contractual obligations on either party. -------- You write: I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them ------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / uunet!acsu.buffalo.edu!pjg / pjg@ubvm (ripem public key at keyserver ripem.acsu.buffalo.edu) if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 19:38:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA23679; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 02:30:00 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA23673; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:29:51 -0700 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07176; Thu, 7 Jul 94 22:32:20 EDT Message-Id: <9407080232.AA07176@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 8 Jul 94 02:32:00 GMT From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Content-Type: text Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson Walker suggests that some people are now paying "non-trivial fees . . . for access to our 'Net," and that these people are customers of the mailing list moderators. Several mailing list moderators have replied; let me add my voice as someone from the other side. (As a bystander, not a spokesperson!) Trivial or non-trivial fees, if someone's paying directly* for network access, he or she is a customer of the network service provider. Other customer/supplier relationships might come from that. But that doesn't make this user a paying customer of every service on the network! Users are customers of services they pay for. If they sign up for AOL, they're AOL customers. If they sign up for CIS, they're CIS customers. If they sign up for PLS, in my humble opinion, they're *our* customers. We're the ones they go to if they have problems. That's as it should be. We're the ones who best benefit from a good relationship with our customers, and with providing a great service. (Conversely, we're the ones the moderators will go to if a user does a Bad Thing. That doesn't fit into any customer/supplier relationship between a commercial service provider and a mailing list moderator. It's still probably as it should be.) (*As opposed to someone who pays indirectly for network service. A university student doesn't usually pay for time on a computer account (I'm sure there are exceptions). I have the privilege of being able to work unpaid overtime from the comfort of my own converted laundry room; who do I turn to?-) Paul S. R. Chisholm psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (PersonaLink is a service mark of AT&T) I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:58:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA01050; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:49:10 GMT Received: from hermes.acs.ryerson.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA01040; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:48:57 -0700 Received: by hermes.acs.ryerson.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34873; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:50:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:50:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ribeiro Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, Grayson Walker wrote: > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them so let them bitch to the person they are paying, they can complain that they /need help/need documentation/blah blah... /P From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 11:51:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA05985; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:51:29 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA05976; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:51:21 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA08752; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:21 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11591; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:19 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24908; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:44:17 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Limited Perspective To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: Grayson Walker , artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple > conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" > procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in > adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, > this difficulty will pass. Exactly. Given time and creative work, the problems will be solved by someone else. Thanks for your input. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 11:51:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA05990; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:51:35 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA05978; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:51:23 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA08753; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:22 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11595; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:21 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24926; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:50:48 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:45:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Brent Chapman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072009.NAA16946@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent: > # Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > # financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > # more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. Just because there is no direct financial exchange does not mean they are not your customer. The fact that you run a list mean you get something out of the effort -- whatever that may be -- that is your compensation. You say if you get money, you'll take a service orientation. You miss the point. The processes are complex and flawed. Just because you and I cannot solve the problems today (with our limited technology) does not mean the problems will not be solved in the future. Stick around long enough and you'll see the money you want. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 05:08:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06194; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:04:04 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06184; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:56 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09067; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:01 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11651; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:06:55 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24945; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:55:12 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists To: Wes Morgan Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407072023.AA06433@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number > of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain > procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- > ment; why should we avoid it here? Wes: What is the name of your company? How long have you been in business? How many customers do you have? What was your gross FY1993? How many employees do you have? From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:09:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06298; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:09:54 GMT Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06292; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:09:46 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA00755; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:12:50 -0400 Received: by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA02856; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:54:00 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9407071154.AA02856@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Limited Perspective To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Cc: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us, artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 8, 94 07:42:14 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: New River Gorge X-Last-Cd: Bluesiana Triangle X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1432 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple >> conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" >> procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in >> adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, >> this difficulty will pass. > >Exactly. Given time and creative work, the problems will be solved by >someone else. Thanks for your input. I'm trying to resist the temptation to barbecue you for distorting what I had to say; instead, I'll attempt to gently explain it to you: I happen to think that the "-request" convention is a simple, easy-to-use, easy-to-remember mechanism for handling out-of-band mailing list traffic. However, it's one of *many* conventions that newbies have to learn in order to function in network society, and it's entirely possible that ome of them will miss it, or get it wrong, or forget it. This does not make it a "flawed" procedure or even a *bad* procedure; this just makes it a procedure that some folks didn't catch on the first (second, third...) try. Rather than spend time searching for another convention, or expend a lot of effort trying to use technology to solve what is essentially a people problem, my position is that consistent use by everyone involved (i.e. mailing list moderators, such as you and me) will slowly educate the relevant population and the problem will gradually diminish. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 05:12:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06207; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:04:18 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06187; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:58 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09069; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:02 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11655; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:00 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24954; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:58:24 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:55:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072049.NAA10230@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without > the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed > (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no > corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. Nonsense. If you offer the list to the public and accept subscription requests, you have agreed to offer and provide the service. If you would treat your customer differently if you received more or different compensation, that is an entirely different issue. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:30:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06585; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:30:22 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06575; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:30:11 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA00777; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:33:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199407081233.IAA00777@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:33:48 EDT In-Reply-To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) "Re: Limited Perspective" (Jul 7, 7:53am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Subject: Re: Limited Perspective Cc: artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Rather than spend time searching for another convention, > or expend a lot of effort trying to use technology to solve what is > essentially a people problem, my position is that consistent use > by everyone involved (i.e. mailing list moderators, such as you and me) > will slowly educate the relevant population and the problem will > gradually diminish. Anyway, I think you have it completely backwards. Successful companies are those that use technology to solve people problems. Compared to software and procedures, people are devilishly difficult to change. What's really most likely to happen is that Microsoft will come in with cool, bullet-proof, user-friendly software to do mailing lists and blow away this whole egotistic inconsistent mess we live with now. You cannot "educate" a population that is rapidly growing, that is rapidly becoming less computer literate, in a complex task that they do not do often enough to master. Your problem is certain to grow, not diminish. --Mike From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:40:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06740; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:40:29 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06732; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:40:20 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA05903; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:35:00 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00728; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:38:06 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:38:06 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407081238.AA00728@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Grayson Walker > >> In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number >> of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain >> procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- >> ment; why should we avoid it here? > >Wes: > >What is the name of your company? How long have you been in >business? How many customers do you have? What was your gross FY1993? >How many employees do you have? I am not a company - that's the whole point! Analogies are flying around which compare listowners to businesses, providing services to customers. I merely used another analogy; if my intent was unclear, I apologize. Let me try again, in the absence of analogy: As a systems administrator, I support 2100+ users. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of them, I may require that *all* users follow certain procedures. I suspect that few of us would have significant heartburn with that statement. Now, let's try this one: As a listowner, I support 80 subscribers. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of them, I may require that *all* subscribers follow certain procedures. If the former statement is valid, why shouldn't the latter be valid as well? --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 13:20:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA07320; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:20:29 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA07314; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 06:20:21 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA06128; Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:11:58 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01151; Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:15:05 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:15:05 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407081315.AA01151@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Grayson Walker >> Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without >> the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed >> (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no >> corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. > >Nonsense. If you offer the list to the public and accept subscription >requests, you have agreed to offer and provide the service. Indeed - on my terms. Not yours, not the client's - mine. That, in the absence of illegal activity on my part, should effectively end this particular thread. --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 17:37:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA11275; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 17:37:23 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06188; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:59 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09073; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:03 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11659; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:01 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24977; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:03:19 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: "s.merchant" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407072141.AA07581@ig1.att.att.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in > >their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in > >learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will > >teach them. > > That pretty much sums it up. I have a standard message that's firm > but not insulting (I don't think) but makes it quite clear that they > have to resend the request. Based on my experiences, I would recommend > the following: > > 1. Do not ignore the request as it will generate repeat requests. At > this point, you should be considering the other members of the list good discussion deleted for brevity. > 5. Despite all this, you will STILL get messages sent to the whole list. > You have to accept that that's part of what you signed up for when you > decided to be the list owner. The best you can do is to keep the > number small. This is exactly right. "You will STILL get messages sent to the whole list." Only when we have better processes and systems will this cease to be a problem. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 18:10:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA11829; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:10:38 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA11821; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:10:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.5) id OAA11477 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:10:45 -0400 Received: from rayssd.ssd.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Fri Jul 8 14:12:28 1994 Received: from fluke.ssd.ray.com (fluke.ssd.ray.com [138.125.192.34]) by rayssd.ssd.ray.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA12668 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:10:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (dhb@localhost) by fluke.ssd.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA04862 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:11:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199407081811.OAA04862@fluke.ssd.ray.com> From: dhb@ssd.ray.com (David H. Brierley) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:11:11 -0400 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Jul 7, 15:32, Grayson Walker wrote: > > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the If people are paying someone for access then they should be able to get help with problems like this from the person/company they are paying the money to. I run a small site out of my house and I charge for access to that system. I fully expect that if a user of my system has a problem that they will call me about it and I make sure that all the users of my system are aware of this. If a service provider is not providing this type of support then why are you paying them money? If I have a problem with something that I purchased, my first action should be to call the place that I purchased it from, not to call the manufacturer. If you think of mailing list maintainers as manufacturers and service providers as stores then I think the support issue becomes a little clearer. -- David H. Brierley; Raytheon Company, Submarine Signal Directorate Work: dhb@ssd.ray.com Home: dave@galaxia.network23.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:09:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA12512; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:57:00 GMT Received: from mailhost.phantom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA12505; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:56:51 -0700 Received: from mindvox (mindvox.phantom.com) by mailhost.phantom.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07386; Fri, 8 Jul 94 15:21:10 EDT Received: by mindvox (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00850; Fri, 8 Jul 94 14:59:29 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:59:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Cabinet Cat Subject: How to use Digestify? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all...I just took over the Generation X list, and it's VERY high-volume, to put it mildly. I'm in desperate need of a digest version, but my site doesn't offer automatic digests. So I found out about this short program called digestify. I ftp'ed it, but unfortunately I'm pretty unix-illiterate, and am not totally sure what to do now. Can anyone here provide me with a short crash-couse-post in running this program? Millions of Xers (well, 150 or so) need your help! Thanks, From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 20:09:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA13814; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 20:09:44 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA13805; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:09:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:09:22 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.182] (mac182.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Fri, 8 Jul 94 16:10 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to add my voice to those who say that users of lists are *not* our "customers". I manage 3 lists, two of which I started because there wasn't a place for the things *I* wanted to see and needed for my work. The other I took over for mostly altruistic reasons. So, in a sense, I created the (two) lists for essentially selfish reasons, although many have benefitted by them. They also primarily cater to academics, which might put them in a slightly different category. The third list, however, is different, and I can really tell. I figure that my service to the lists more than makes up for what I receive in return. But I'm not around to cater to folks who can't get their netiquette straight, or what address the listserv is at after I've told them 20 times. I tend to be a fairly gentle listowner, giving reminders now and again, and if people ignore them, it's easier to remove them from the list than deal with multiple "unsubscribes." It really is a thankless task, and I've gotten used to that, but I'm not going to be anyone's net.servant. Problem is, as the net grows and the number of newbies continually outstrip the number of experienced users, we will have to get used to annoyances, and sometimes assholes. Besides, the ones who play by the rules seem silent to us, only the ones who don't muck up the works. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. _____________________________ School of Natural Science | mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu | Hampshire College, ----------------------------- Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 Listowner: Feminists in Science and Technology (FIST@dawn.hampshire.edu) Minority Health Issues (MINHLTH@dawn.hampshire.edu) List Facilitator:Sistah-net (Sistah-request@hamp.hampshire.edu) Co-moderator, sci.med.aids =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 21:53:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA14910; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 21:53:31 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA14904; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:53:20 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA14714 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 8 Jul 1994 16:38:27 -0500 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA13791; 8 Jul 94 16:28:26 CDT (Fri) Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 16:28:23 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9407081628.AA13791@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David H. Brierley wrote: > If people are paying someone for access then they should be able to get help > with problems like this from the person/company they are paying the money to. > I run a small site out of my house and I charge for access to that system. I > fully expect that if a user of my system has a problem that they will call me > about it and I make sure that all the users of my system are aware of this. I can take this in a completely different direction. Both my lists have fairly controlled environments, and I don't allow exploders on them. One of the lists can get high volume and at times, people will send gifs and other large files through, so I set up a separate parallel list to handle the larger files. This is so if someone doesn't want/can't deal with large files, they don't have to receive them. Of the 120 on the list, about 95 are on this list (called maniacs). All this is clearly explained in the intro file I send out, which also gives the cap on the size of files I'll accept. Twice now I've received indignant letters from sysops of small systems who paid for their feeds, complaining of the large files I've been sending to a user of theirs subscribed to my list. Easily taken care of, I dropped the user in question off maniacs. Their attitudes were pretty much, "How dare you, don't you know you're not supposed to do this? etc, etc." The second one kept going on about his users who read the list even tho there was only one person from his system subscribed. I explained about maniacs to him and he replied that how could he know about it since I never told him (Him? He wasn't the one subscribed!) so I sent him the list rules to show him how it was all there in the file I sent to all new subscribers. Upon further exchange, I ascertained that out he had set up an exploder. By this time, I was so annoyed, I dropped his site off the list entirely. He wasn't very happy with this decision of mine, accusing me of discriminating against smaller systems. I told him I didn't appreciate how he had messed with my list without consulting with me (at no time during this discussion did I talk with the person who was actually subscribed!). But I guess what bothered me the most was his attitude towards my list. The reason he wanted it was so he could use it as a service for his paying users (I guess he couldn't afford much of a newsfeed). It's a pity I didn't get a chance to talk to the users who were actually reading to see what they thought. Too much lack of communicaton all around. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 9 21:52:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA24992; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 21:52:10 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA24986; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 14:51:58 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA22451 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 9 Jul 1994 16:47:46 -0500 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA01455; 9 Jul 94 16:36:26 CDT (Sat) Subject: why no exploders? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 9 Jul 94 16:36:25 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) asks: > Why? > Could you please say what > your bad experience with exploders has been, or why not dealing with > exploders has been better? > > I'm asking from the point of view of a large service provider with > experienced users. It has nothing to do with the technical aspects. It has everything to do with the nature of the list. You see, the list is a forum for Disney television animation and we have a couple of people who work at the Disney studios as members of the list. One of them freely dumps all sorts of inside information on us. He's also sent episode scripts. This is with the understanding that it's for our use only, and not to be spread with wild abandon about the net. I realize that it's not possible to educate all the users, but I try (I have a reputation of being a bit of a hardnose, but there's zero noise on the list). I have to have faith in the membership and hope they've read the guidelines, and it seems to have worked out so far. We've had a couple glitches in the past, a case of one user thinking all information on the net is like free love (for the taking and giving -- he's still like this, btw, and we still have arguments over various things) and he took some scripts and set them up for anonymous ftp (and took them right down again :-). So now we put lots of obvious notices (Do not post to the net, do not redistribute, etc, etc) on anything copyrighted that goes to the list. I understand Disney is the same way -- they don't really like stuff like this getting out into the public domain, so I think we're pretty lucky and don't want to abuse it. At one point I did have some exploders but I found they caused some confusion on the other end as the readers had no way of telling that the newsgroup they were reading was really a gated mailing list, so I removed them. (Usually when talking with said confused person, upon finding out it was a mailing list they lost interest, so it was just as well). My other mailing list is one of a sexual nature and people sometimes get paranoid about who might be reading what they're writing, but it's also very low volume so I don't worry about that one. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 9 22:21:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA25377; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 22:21:59 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA25371; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 15:21:51 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA09315 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sat, 9 Jul 1994 18:24:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199407092224.AA09315@cs.umb.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: why no exploders? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Jul 1994 16:36:25 CDT." <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 1994 18:24:58 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com>, Stephanie da Silva writes: >psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) asks: > >> Why? > Could you please say what >> your bad experience with exploders has been, or why not dealing with >> exploders has been better? >> >> I'm asking from the point of view of a large service provider with >> experienced users. > >It has nothing to do with the technical aspects. It has everything to >do with the nature of the list. > [...] >At one point I did have some exploders but I found they caused some >confusion on the other end as the readers had no way of telling that >the newsgroup they were reading was really a gated mailing list, so I >removed them. (Usually when talking with said confused person, upon >finding out it was a mailing list they lost interest, so it was just as >well). Actually Stephanie put her finger on a couple of problems that I have with exploders. Unlike her general statement, it is partly a technical problem. Setting up an exploder requires that the site do something besides add: list-exploder::include:/spool/mailing-list/list to their aliases file. They also need to take steps to make sure that bounces from their exploder do not make it back to the list operator. Most people who set up exploders don't segment their exploders this way, so I have to try to figure out why I am getting a bounce for the address jim@bozo.xxx.com when jim@bozo.xxx.com isn't on my list. Usually I analyze the reciebed lines, and see if there is an exploded list somewhere along the way. If so, I try to get ahold of the postmaser and work things out. If the poostmaster is non-responsive after a week, the exploder gets dropped, and a standard form letter explaining why the exploder was dropped and the requirements for properly setting up an exploder is sent to the exploder address. The second problem is a people problem that Stephanie metions int he second paragraph above. Some people who are subscribed via exploders don't know how they are subscribed, and keep sending messages to the list administrative (or worse the list address) to try to get off the list. Of course I can't do anything about it, I have given up on trying to explain how they are actually getting the list mail. The concept of exploders is just too much for them to grasp. I just tell them to talk to their local sysadmin (as well as cc'ing the exploder owner and post,aster addrresses). I won't discuss the people who try to unsubscribe from a local newgroup using the list admin address rather than changing their .newsrc 8-). -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 10 02:40:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA26919; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 02:40:07 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA26898; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:39:52 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07482; Sat, 9 Jul 94 22:42:30 EDT Message-Id: <9407100242.AA07482@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 9 Jul 1994 22:38 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <9407081628.AA13791@taronga.taronga.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And there are those who really do try to follow the procedures, but must have missed something in the "translation." :-). [Names are masked to protect the well-intentioned.] ================================================================ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:29:21 -0700 From: cxxxxxx@netcom.com (Xxxxx Xxxxxxx) Message-Id: <199407090129.SAA05416@netcom6.netcom.com> To: ballroom@MIT.EDU ballroom-request@athena.mit.edu ================================================================ From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 10 03:55:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id DAA27171; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 03:55:15 GMT Received: from comtch.iea.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA27162; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:55:05 -0700 Received: by comtch.iea.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0qMq1N-0003Z2C; Sat, 9 Jul 94 20:57 PDT To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: dmcevers@comtch.iea.com (Dan McEvers) Subject: List help Date: Sat, 09 Jul 1994 19:34:33 -0400 Message-ID: <9Gp7ka9tNI2C068yn@comtch.iea.com> Lines: 14 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am becoming aware of software to initiate and maintain a mailing list, but what I have been trying to find is program to expedite messages and commands to be sent to various lists in their proper format per individual list. Here is a scenario. I am trying to learn as much as I can in a limited amount of time about as many of the lists as I am interested in. I need to subscribe and unsubscribe to quite a few in order to pare my incoming mail to a manageable but efficient level. I want to keep all the list managers happy but forget some of the proper commands and addresses. Is there anything available that could be made aware of proper formatting and addressing before sending? From: dmcevers@comtch.iea.com ==> Dan McEvers in Spokane, WA. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 10 12:31:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA00949; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 12:31:46 GMT Received: from post.demon.co.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA00943; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 05:31:35 -0700 Received: from stonewall.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa11402; 10 Jul 94 13:18 GMT-60:00 From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Sun, 10 Jul 1994 12:00:00 BST In-Reply-To: List-Managers-Digest-Owner@greatcircle.com's message 'List Managers Digest V3 #119' of Thu 7 Jul Reply-To: Nigel Whitfield X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Message-ID: <9407101200.aa22760@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: Grayson Walker > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) > > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees And guess what? Some of the list maintainers spend a lot of money to access the net to run things. > We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain > courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that > some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. I've seen the arrogance of people from nicely connected sites who assume that I must reply to their messages within a few hours, and complain vociferously if I won't run up my own phone bill to sort out their problems. Perhaps that ought to end too. > > This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these > > folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they > > I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without > compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the > prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. Nice bit of psychobabble there. I value the service I provide very highly, and I'm sure many other people here feel the same about their lists. I've seen nothing in this thread that makes me feel I have some extra duty to list members because they're paying someone else for net access. If there's any duty to the subscribers of a list, it's solely a duty of goodwill, much as with any voluntary organisation. I already spend far more time administering the list than people will downloading it, and while I do my best to make life easy for the poor souls who pay for access, there's a limit, and that's very much determined by what I pay, out of my own pocket, to handle administration. It would be great to provide people with instant, polite responses to even the most ludicrous requests, or to manage everything so that no one receives too many costly messages, but it's not possible outside a completely commercial environment, and no matter how much people pay to their service providers, it makes not one jot of difference to the communications bills that I receive. Nigel. -- [Nigel Whitfield nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] [For details on the uk-motss mailing list mail uk-motss-request@dircon.co.uk] [****** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ******] From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 11 16:55:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA07317; Mon, 11 Jul 1994 16:55:14 GMT Received: from midway.uchicago.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA07295; Mon, 11 Jul 1994 09:54:43 -0700 From: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Received: from kimbark.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for List-Managers@greatcircle.com Mon, 11 Jul 94 11:57:47 CDT Received: from localhost.uchicago.edu by kimbark.uchicago.edu (4.1/UCCO-1.0A) id AA16353; Mon, 11 Jul 94 11:57:07 CDT Message-Id: <9407111657.AA16353@kimbark.uchicago.edu> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: List Owners vs. System Administrators In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Jul 94 01:10:05 PDT." <199407110810.BAA01534@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 11:57:07 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Another angle, which might help to clarify the discussion, of list owner responsibilities towards list subscribers: Consider the system administrator of the overal list server system (whether Majordomo, ListProc, or LISTSERV), who has to keep the whole shebang running and handle occasional errors and irate complaints (when they bounce to Postmaster). The system administrator has the individual list owners, for each list hosted on the system, as "customers". Then, in turn, the list owner for each list has the list subscribers as further "customers" in the manner being debated now. But I don't see the first relationship being discussed as much, i.e. what the list owner owes to the system administrators.... By starting a mailing list on someone's system, you may introduce significant new mail traffic load, error bounces, irate complaints, attract hackers' attention to the host, etc. etc. At the U. of Chicago we're getting ready to introduce a new Majordomo list service host, and we're working on our support policies and documentation etc. for the new list owners. As the overall system administrators, we definitely do NOT want to hear from your subscribers, on your individual mailing list..... part of your responsibility as a list owner is to keep them out of our hair! We get lots of requests, "I want to start a mailing list for XX", "I want to take over this national mailing list YY", etc. so we're finally almost ready to take them on in a supported, systematic way. Part of our problem right now is to figure out what to do when lots of professors, TA's, etc. want to establish mailing lists for each section of the courses they teach, but don't have time to do proper mailing list owner administration (in our limited tests, professors add student addresses by hand, often incorrectly, and then simply won't fix them, causing errors on every single message sent to the list) ..... how far do we go in providing assistance, etc. I think we are also going to restrict the kind of mailing lists offered, at least initially, to only on-campus lists, focused on research and instruction at the University. So no one will be hosting international interest lists on our server, not at first. This decision may cut down on the problems we encounter, we'll see. At least, I think that's the plan. Chris Koenigsberg: ckk@uchicago.edu, ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu U. of Chicago Academic Information Technologies From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 11 17:14:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA07833; Mon, 11 Jul 1994 17:14:08 GMT Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA07824; Mon, 11 Jul 1994 10:13:58 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24044>; Mon, 11 Jul 1994 13:16:58 -0400 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Limited Perspective In-reply-to: mmorse's message of Fri, 08 Jul 1994 08:33:48 -0400. <199407081233.IAA00777@z.nsf.gov> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 1994 13:16:50 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <94Jul11.131658edt.24044@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | What's really most likely to happen is that Microsoft will come in with | cool, bullet-proof, user-friendly software to do mailing lists and blow | away this whole egotistic inconsistent mess we live with now. Sounds good to me. When it does what I want easier than my current method, I'll use it. I don't run my mailing lists the way I do out of some attachment to the method; I do it because it's the easiest way. - cks From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 12:59:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA24181; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 12:59:15 GMT Received: from ruby.ora.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA24172; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 05:59:02 -0700 Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.17]) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id JAA13423 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:02:08 -0400 Received: by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA00770; Tue, 12 Jul 94 06:01:24 PDT From: Jerry Peek Reply-To: jerry@ora.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Owners vs. System Administrators In-Reply-To: Message from ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu of "Mon, 11 Jul 1994 11:57:07 -0500." <9407111657.AA16353@kimbark.uchicago.edu> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 06:01:23 -0700 Message-Id: <769.774018083@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Part of our problem right now is to figure out what to do when lots of > professors, TA's, etc. want to establish mailing lists for each > section of the courses they teach, but don't have time to do proper > mailing list owner administration (in our limited tests, professors > add student addresses by hand, often incorrectly, and then simply > won't fix them, causing errors on every single message sent to the > list) ..... how far do we go in providing assistance, etc. Maybe you could hack up the bounce-handling code from Alan Millar and Brent Chapman (it was posted to majordomo lists a week or two ago). Make it your policy that all bounces will be routed to the owner's mailbox. For the bounces that the bounce program doesn't handle and that end up in your mailbox, use a re-distributing program (like "dist" in MH) to send the bounces on. Then the owners can deal with the consequences of their actions: if they screw up a lot, they'll get lots of bounces and they'll learn. BTW, I'm not sure about the status of the bounce-handling stuff. It was only for Majordomo. It wasn't ready for prime time, I think. -- Jerry Peek; O'Reilly & Associates; Sebastopol, CA 95472 USA; jerry@ora.com Info: gopher gopher.ora.com (or telnet, and login: gopher), or info@ora.com Orders: (800)998-9938, +1 707-829-0515, fax +1 707-829-0104, or order@ora.com From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 15:08:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA25631; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:08:22 GMT Received: from de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA25625; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 08:08:13 -0700 Received: (from de5@localhost) by de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA24731; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 11:11:24 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 11:11:24 -0400 From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199407121511.LAA24731@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: References: <9407072141.AA07581@ig1.att.att.com> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.70.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.10 Lucid of Wed May 25 1994 on tile.cs.colorado.edu (berkeley-unix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is exactly right. "You will STILL get messages sent to the whole list." >Only when we have better processes and systems will this cease to be >a problem. It's fairly easy to filter out 95% of the administrivia requests sent to a list. Majordomo supports this, as does various homegrown list software. I don't see what the big deal is. -- Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov) Martin Marietta Energy Systems, Workstation Support URL http://www.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 16:59:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA27656; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 16:59:33 GMT Received: from suntan.Tandem.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA27650; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 09:59:23 -0700 Received: from devserver.dsg.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA16873; Tue, 12 Jul 94 10:02:08 PDT Received: from work.dsg.tandem.com by devserver.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6main.931028) id AA14500; Tue, 12 Jul 94 10:02:06 PDT Received: by work.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.931028) id AA27658; Tue, 12 Jul 94 10:02:04 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jul 94 10:02:04 PDT From: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9407121702.AA27658@work.dsg.tandem.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >It's fairly easy to filter out 95% of the administrivia requests sent to a >list. Majordomo supports this, as does various homegrown list software. It occurred to me recently that this may even have helped cause the problem that lead to this thread. I don't remember any more what the Majordomo code does with sub/unsub requests sent to the this, but if it was dropping them silently, then no-one could possibly have seen the requests, which would certainly tend to send some people into the stratosphere... \scott From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 17:19:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA27945; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:19:45 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA27938; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:19:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199407121719.KAA27938@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 12 Jul 94 10:02:04 PDT Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:19:38 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) writes: # >It's fairly easy to filter out 95% of the administrivia requests sent to a # >list. Majordomo supports this, as does various homegrown list software. # # It occurred to me recently that this may even have helped cause the problem # that lead to this thread. I don't remember any more what the Majordomo code # does with sub/unsub requests sent to the this, but if it was dropping them # silently, then no-one could possibly have seen the requests, which would # certainly tend to send some people into the stratosphere... Majordomo forwards them to the list owner for review. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 11:00:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA28554; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 17:52:16 GMT Received: from de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA28543; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 10:51:33 -0700 Received: (from de5@localhost) by de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA25102; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 13:54:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 13:54:46 -0400 From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199407121754.NAA25102@de5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: <9407121702.AA27658@work.dsg.tandem.com> References: <9407121702.AA27658@work.dsg.tandem.com> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.70.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.10 Lucid of Wed May 25 1994 on tile.cs.colorado.edu (berkeley-unix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >It occurred to me recently that this may even have helped cause the problem >that lead to this thread. I don't remember any more what the Majordomo code >does with sub/unsub requests sent to the this, but if it was dropping them >silently, then no-one could possibly have seen the requests, which would >certainly tend to send some people into the stratosphere... Majordomo bounces administrivia requests to the list owner (if this feature is enabled). The software I use for alpha-osf-managers and decstation-managers sends a generic bounce message directly to the user that includes a pointer to the right place to send administrivia. -- Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov) Martin Marietta Energy Systems, Workstation Support URL http://www.dec.com/pub/DEC/DECinfo/html/dsill.html From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 19:25:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA00613; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 19:25:40 GMT Received: from SUVM.SYR.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA00597; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 12:25:26 -0700 Received: from spider.syr.edu by SUVM.SYR.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Tue, 12 Jul 94 15:28:59 LCL Received: by spider.syr.edu (5.0/Spike-2.0) id AA18862; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:30:27 +0500 Message-Id: <9407121930.AA18862@spider.syr.edu> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, jmwobus@mailbox.syr.edu Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:30:26 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" content-length: 1047 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think this debate is very much of a way people cast the problem--I suspect there is a lot of fundamental agreement on the fact that it makes sense to offer subscribers some sort of stable service and that it isn't good to lead them on thinking they will get some service, then offer it inconsistently. Thus, even if the service is offered for free, it makes sense for us administrators to discuss the issue of how to best provide good service to subscribers, and I'm betting that most list administrators are interested in such things. The flamebait is the suggestion that people who give their own time to their subscribers to administer a mailing list and get nothing in return owe something to their subscribers. It is only natural that lots of administrators will feel the opposite way--that it is themselves who are being imposed upon and are owed something, especially if they have just had to deal with a time-consuming mailing-list crises. But discussions of how to offer best service need not appeal to "what is owed". -John Wobus From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 22:12:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA02925; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:12:41 GMT Received: from imcnj.imc.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA02919; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:12:31 -0700 From: lmorrow@imcnj.imc.com Message-Id: <199407122212.PAA02919@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Tue Jul 12 18:13:54 EDT 1994 To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1645 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Information Management Company Subject: Information of interest to your users For those trying to harness computing resources across their enterprise, IMC (Information Management Company) has a team of products designed to to integrate all hardware, software and applications and guarantee transparent UNIX-to-mainframe connectivity: TUXEDO ETP AND OPEN TRANSPORT. Fast.. Tuxedo routes client requests instantly, and allows users or functions to be added without slowing system reponse, adding more processing time or network overhead. Open TransPort interactively communicates between the mainframe and Tuxedo UNIX applications over TCP/IP, so data moves immediately, network wide. Efficient.. Tuxedo integrates with relational DBMS's with features that turbocharge database operations. Open TransPort improves network performance and efficiency by transparently executing mainframe transactions from multiple Tuxedo servers. Service translation is automatic. A simple config change adds client/server access. No rewriting. No retraining. Easy... End users will get faster database access and improved execution. Developers focus on creating high-performance applications network wide, and not on internal transaction processes. Open TransPort easy access to conventional TP applications without conventional IMS wrestling means instant access, update, flexible smartsizing and simplified application design. OPEN TRANSPORT and TUXEDO ETP give you faster network performance, drastically reduced costs, simple straight-forward operation. For details, contact IMC at 908-417-9770 or internet imc@imc.com. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 22:14:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA02948; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:14:31 GMT Received: from imcnj.imc.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA02940; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:13:37 -0700 From: lmorrow@imcnj.imc.com Message-Id: <199407122213.PAA02940@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Tue Jul 12 18:13:55 EDT 1994 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1645 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Information Management Company Subject: Information of interest to your users For those trying to harness computing resources across their enterprise, IMC (Information Management Company) has a team of products designed to to integrate all hardware, software and applications and guarantee transparent UNIX-to-mainframe connectivity: TUXEDO ETP AND OPEN TRANSPORT. Fast.. Tuxedo routes client requests instantly, and allows users or functions to be added without slowing system reponse, adding more processing time or network overhead. Open TransPort interactively communicates between the mainframe and Tuxedo UNIX applications over TCP/IP, so data moves immediately, network wide. Efficient.. Tuxedo integrates with relational DBMS's with features that turbocharge database operations. Open TransPort improves network performance and efficiency by transparently executing mainframe transactions from multiple Tuxedo servers. Service translation is automatic. A simple config change adds client/server access. No rewriting. No retraining. Easy... End users will get faster database access and improved execution. Developers focus on creating high-performance applications network wide, and not on internal transaction processes. Open TransPort easy access to conventional TP applications without conventional IMS wrestling means instant access, update, flexible smartsizing and simplified application design. OPEN TRANSPORT and TUXEDO ETP give you faster network performance, drastically reduced costs, simple straight-forward operation. For details, contact IMC at 908-417-9770 or internet imc@imc.com. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 12 22:18:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA03017; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:18:54 GMT Received: from nwnexus.wa.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA03011; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:18:43 -0700 Received: from locus.halcyon.com by nwnexus.wa.com with SMTP id AA00765 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:21:31 -0700 Received: by locus.halcyon.com id AA29383 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com); Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:21:11 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 15:21:06 +0100 From: Ralph Sims Subject: Re: your mail To: lmorrow@imcnj.imc.com Cc: List-Managers-Digest@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199407122212.PAA02919@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ahem? Let this posting be your only mistake. :) On Tue, 12 Jul -1 lmorrow@imcnj.imc.com wrote: > From: Information Management Company > Subject: Information of interest to your users From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 13 01:34:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id BAA04606; Wed, 13 Jul 1994 01:34:10 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA04600; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:33:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:33:51 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.183] (mac183.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Tue, 12 Jul 94 21:35 EDT Subject: List software, etc. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi folks. I am planning to move my lists from one site to another. From a Sun workstation to a 486 running Linux. I am now running an old version of Unix listerv. I figure since I want to move the lists anyway, I might as well at least update, or look for the best list software, and one which will definitely work with Linux. So 3 questions: 1) Best software? 2) Can it run on linux? 3) Where can I get it (and docs)? <-- very important! Thanks much in advance. I'll be glad to post a summary when the results come in. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. _____________________________ School of Natural Science | mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu | Hampshire College, ----------------------------- Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 Listowner: Feminists in Science and Technology (FIST@dawn.hampshire.edu) Minority Health Issues (MINHLTH@dawn.hampshire.edu) List Facilitator:Sistah-net (Sistah-request@hamp.hampshire.edu) Co-moderator, sci.med.aids =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 13 01:59:43 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id BAA04823; Wed, 13 Jul 1994 01:59:43 GMT Received: from cs.bu.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA04817; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 18:59:31 -0700 Received: from csa.bu.edu by cs.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id WAA04265; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:01:44 -0400 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: from localhost by csa.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id WAA15387; Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:02:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199407130202.WAA15387@csa.bu.edu> Subject: Re: List software, etc. To: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Date: Tue, 12 Jul 1994 22:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu" at Jul 12, 94 06:33:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 464 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Hi folks. > I am planning to move my lists from one site to another. From a Sun > workstation to a 486 running Linux. I am now running an old version of Unix > listerv. I figure since I want to move the lists anyway, I might as well at > least update, or look for the best list software, and one which will > definitely work with Linux. listproc 6.0c rev July 12 1994 (today !) incorporates all linux diffs. 7.0 is not yet supported on Linux. Tasos From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 13 16:27:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA11247; Wed, 13 Jul 1994 16:27:58 GMT Received: from imcnj.imc.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA11241; Wed, 13 Jul 1994 09:27:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199407131627.JAA11241@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> From: Lee Morrow Date: Wed Jul 13 12:29:01 EDT 1994 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Apology Content-Type: text Content-Length: 668 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To all, I apologize for the inadvertent advertisement which was sent to you yesterday. This occurred because of a mixup in mailing lists, message content, and a software failure. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN! The ad which you so rudely received was destined for a group of marketing lists and not the public in general. To the list managers, who coordinate the lists which I have intruded upon, I respect your position and again stress the accidental nature of this event. Your lists were in a file to "subscribe to" and were not intended for mailings. As for the cyberfolks I have disrupted ... I accept all of the flames. I deserve them. Sincerely, Lee Morrow From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 14 03:50:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA18026; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:34:25 GMT Received: from alink-gw.apple.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA18019; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 02:34:16 -0700 Received: by alink-gw.apple.com (921113.SGI.UNSUPPORTED_PROTOTYPE/7-Oct-1993-eef) id AA09878; Thu, 14 Jul 94 02:36:53 -0700 for LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Date: 14 Jul 94 09:28 GMT From: JM.HOLDER@AppleLink.Apple.COM (Jean-Marc Holder, Paris,F,FR,IDV) Subject: Info on setting up list To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-Id: <774178613.9393384@AppleLink.Apple.COM> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a question similar to Michelle's though a little broader. I would like to set up a list server from scratch and haven't got a clue where to start. I currently run a Mac but am willing to move to any other platform. Here are my questions: 1) How should I estimate the size of system that I need? 2) What list server software offers reeasonable performance with minimal administration complexity (both the software and underlying OS). 3) What O/S is reccomended (does any list server software run on the Mac)? 4) Is there a source of information for people like me who are just starting out in this area? Thanks in advance, Jean-Marc Internet address: JM.HOLDER@AppleLink.Apple.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 14 12:59:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA20301; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 12:59:41 GMT Received: from jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA20282; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 05:59:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199407141259.FAA20282@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from unicorn.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <04413-0@jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 13:48:48 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Looking for useful shell scripts etc Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 13:48:42 +0100 From: Malcolm Jackson Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I use MH's `forw -digest...' to create a digest for my mailing-list twice a day. The digest is formatted to 80 characters which sometimes causes the odd character to over-wrap onto the next line. Occasionally the over-wrapped character is a `full-stop' (ya know, a ".") which causes some mailers to truncate the digest because the mailer interprets any line that contains a "." as the end-of-file. Quite simply, all I'm looking for is a sed or awk script to read through the digest and remove any line that contains the single "." I need to incorporate the script into the script that creates the digest. (Hmm, scans back through message to check if it makes sense. Phrase including the words "mud" and "clear" come to mind) Oh, well. I've had a go myself and frankly I'm a bit mistified. Partly because I have very little info on awk and sed (How do you lot manage to learn anything from man pages?) and I haven't found any similar examples, and I'm well aware that most of you lot are boffins and probably find this sort of thing dead easy! I could also do with a shell script to take the MH created digest and convert it to single files for subscribers who's mailers can't burst digests. Many thanks for any help you can give me. Mal. The Ogri mailing-list. Affiliated to the Federation of European Motorcyclist's. malcolm.jackson@nott.ac.uk University of Nottingham From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 14 16:35:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA21596; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 16:35:40 GMT Received: from ruby.ora.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA21590; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:35:23 -0700 Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.17]) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.8/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA08255 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 12:38:33 -0400 Received: by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA05135; Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:37:17 PDT From: Jerry Peek X-Face: 4'>h,#cS;REmrM.0o;MLO(rQ\6!tC3|K"`%_&L/5r'?`z?YFA'^?O_2;uhDj}[Ezd'KN;UN ]JY>}7NI!3#)pemuo^HLsy?e&d;~eMDvq{tVqg_JaK.QQ>aXK,)ruQhThx8,.X|_@Foa75CW:E[=@U@5dA'(H`V>Vm{d[)S8AcVpGs1Jw,p6w{LF c?o(}7$@3ani]G[joNpQsJ%^kZhox%7\gVhT%uu|8"WXlT=U1:opS-:9hL{kZgxhGvUf?bJ4E Reply-To: jerry@ora.com X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: Malcolm Jackson Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Looking for useful shell scripts etc In-Reply-To: Message from Malcolm Jackson of "Thu, 14 Jul 1994 13:48:42 +0100." <199407141259.FAA20282@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 09:37:16 -0700 Message-Id: <5134.774203836@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think there are other list-managers readers who use "forw -digest", too, so I decided to reply to the list... > I use MH's `forw -digest...' to create a digest for my mailing-list twice > a day. The digest is formatted to 80 characters which sometimes causes the > odd character to over-wrap onto the next line. Occasionally the over-wrapped > character is a `full-stop' (ya know, a ".") which causes some mailers to > truncate the digest ... > Quite simply, all I'm looking for is a sed or awk script to read through > the digest and remove any line that contains the single "." A sed script to do that looks like: /^\.$/d You can put that in a shell script named "dotfix" and invoke it from the "What now?" prompt by typing "edit dotfix". The script is: #!/bin/sh /bin/cp "$1" /tmp/fix$$ /bin/sed '/^\.$/d' /tmp/fix$$ > "$1" /bin/rm -f /tmp/fix$$ exit 0 You could add some bug proofing to handle things like a full /tmp, an unwritable draft (in the $1 argument, etc.) but that's the basic idea. A better solution might be to add a sendproc script that automatically processes all your outgoing mail and deletes those lines; you wouldn't have to do anything special. If there's a copy of my Nutshell Handbook "MH & xmh: E-mail for Users & Programmers" around your office somewhere, look at the "mysend" script in Section 13.13. You can also get "mysend" from ftp.uu.net in /published/oreilly/nutshell/MHxmh/MHxmh2.tar.Z. -- Jerry Peek; O'Reilly & Associates; Sebastopol, CA 95472 USA; jerry@ora.com Info: gopher gopher.ora.com (or telnet, and login: gopher), or info@ora.com Orders: (800)998-9938, +1 707-829-0515, fax +1 707-829-0104, or order@ora.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 15 03:08:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id DAA28587; Fri, 15 Jul 1994 03:08:11 GMT Received: from netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA28581; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 20:08:01 -0700 Received: by netcom.com (8.6.8.1/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id UAA20383; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 20:11:37 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 20:11:37 -0700 From: mcb@netcom.com (Michael C. Berch) Message-Id: <199407150311.UAA20383@netcom10.netcom.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List Owners vs. System Administrators Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chris Koenigsberg writes: > At the U. of Chicago we're getting ready to introduce a new Majordomo > list service host, and we're working on our support policies and > documentation etc. for the new list owners. > [...] > Part of our problem right now is to figure out what to do when lots of > professors, TA's, etc. want to establish mailing lists for each > section of the courses they teach, but don't have time to do proper > mailing list owner administration (in our limited tests, professors > add student addresses by hand, often incorrectly, and then simply > won't fix them, causing errors on every single message sent to the > list) ..... how far do we go in providing assistance, etc. Personally, I don't think mailing lists work really well for this application, simply because you have to spend so much time setting them up and tearing them down every term (quarters or semesters). As well (as you point out) as having to teach list administration. I'd recommend using local newsgroups, unless there is some arcane reason that you have to keep the material very private and know exactly who is is being sent to. Many universities use local newsgroups on a per-course or per-section basis; the good thing is that you can just set them up once with the course number or title and each batch of students merely subscribes at the beginning of the term and unsubscribes at the end of the term. This relieves both professors/TAs and local sysadmins of list management responsibilities while imposing a very tiny burden (newsgroup creation) on the news server administrator. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@netcom.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 15 05:44:40 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA29945; Fri, 15 Jul 1994 05:44:40 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA29935; Thu, 14 Jul 1994 22:44:24 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23263 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 14 Jul 1994 22:47:35 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA13847 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5); Thu, 14 Jul 1994 22:47:33 -0700 Message-Id: <199407150547.AA13847@bolero.rahul.net> To: jerry@ora.com Cc: Malcolm Jackson , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Looking for useful shell scripts etc In-Reply-To: <5134.774203836@rubble.west.ora.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 22:47:32 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jerry wrote: > > A sed script to do that looks like: > /^\.$/d > You can put that in a shell script named "dotfix" and invoke it from the > "What now?" prompt by typing "edit dotfix". The script is: > #!/bin/sh > /bin/cp "$1" /tmp/fix$$ > /bin/sed '/^\.$/d' /tmp/fix$$ > "$1" > /bin/rm -f /tmp/fix$$ > exit 0 > You could add some bug proofing to handle things like a full /tmp, an > unwritable draft (in the $1 argument, etc.) but that's the basic idea. I use forw -digest too. My digest is sent out by cron, so it has to be automated. Awhile back I hacked together the following script for cron. It isn't pretty and it's kind of kludgy, but it works. BTW, the "push" is from Jerry's book. cp Mail/digest.format Mail/temp.format scan +fatfree-digest -noreverse -format " %{subject}" >> Mail/temp.format forw +fatfree-digest all -digest Fatfree -form temp.format -filter digest.filter -nowhatnowproc cat `mhpath +drafts cur` | sed -e "s/^\.$/ ./" | rcvstore +drafts rmm +drafts cur push next rmm +fatfree-digest all rm Mail/temp.format It first tacks the subject listing to the top of the digest, forms the digest, removes single dot lines, stores the doctored draft, removes the old one, sends out the digest, and then clears out the old messages and extraneous temp.format file. One error still remains: If any of the subject lines contain a "%" character, the digest fails to get sent and I have to go in and fix it by hand the next day. This happens about once every other month (1 out of 60 times). A quick fix for this from more knowledgable types would be appreciated (I guess I should simply pipe the scan output through sed, replacing "%" with "percent" before catting it to temp.format). I plan to (eventually -- sigh) use Steve Berg's excellent SmartList package to manage this list, but for now, this very inelegant set of commands does the job. (BTW, the digest goes out when I'm not logged in, so there's little danger of my online mail activities clashing with the cron-activated script). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 15 13:43:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA03364; Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:43:47 GMT Received: from stl-17sima by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA03358; Fri, 15 Jul 1994 06:43:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199407151343.GAA03358@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 8:45:04 CDT From: Rich Zellich To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Looking for useful shell scripts etc Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There's something wrong with your network mail-transmission software if it truncates a message on a single "." (or causes the receiver to do so). The standard is for the mail-sender to prepend any line starting with a period with another period - i.e., change: .ANY-OR-NO-TEXT to: ..ANY-OR-NO-TEXT and for the mail receiver to strip off any leading period. You shouldn't have to do it yourself... Given that you *do* have the problem, though, there are better ways of handling it. The one I think preferable is to run "fill" against your input files before digestifying it. "fill" is a utility that will fold all your lines to a standard length (with some amount of smarts about what constitutes a paragraph and when leading spaces should be retained on lines) - it will break on word boundaries, rather than in the middle of a text string. The only drawback is that it might not handle some specially-formatted text correctly - tables, cute signature lines, etc., might not work right. The overall simplest method is probably what you're doing, followed by the sed script "/^\.$/d" which will delete any line consisting only of a period - or use "s/^\.$/ \./" to change it to (neater than doing ). Cheers, Rich From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 16 18:14:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA17772; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 18:14:19 GMT Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA17766; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:14:11 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id LAA24019; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:17:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:17:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199407161817.LAA24019@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Hard-coded '-approval' References: <199407160631.XAA13004@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> <199407161728.NAA00722@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> X-Attribution: JRhine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Some context; I asked about changing the 'list-approval' hardcoded in Majordomo into something more configurable; my site currently prefers 'list-manager'.] >> owner-cccp-l: cccp-l-manager >> owner-solaris-l: solaris-l-manager JRhine> You'll note that I already do have 'list-approval' aliased to JRhine> 'list-manager', but the point was that I feel it will easier for our JRhine> users to remember the convention of contacting a human at JRhine> 'list-manager' than 'list-approval'. David> You should be teaching your users the existing Internet convention of David> using 'owner-list', not 'list-approval' or 'list-manager'. David> 'list-approval' is strictly an internal Majordomo convention, not a David> standard by any means. [...] Other mailing list software (LISTSERV, David> and others) use the 'owner-list' convention. (see RFC 1211) I've never encountered the 'owner' convention in any sort of formalized setting (RFC1211 included; Weltine and Postel merely state that most people don't understand list ownership and give their solution to the problem. The status of RFC 1211 is that "it does not specify an Internet standard.") I use the 'owner-list' aliases because it is how sendmail 8 specifies where bounces should go; I've never encountered it in any other context and I would prefer not to confuse the two functions. David> You'll be doing your users a disservice by getting them used to using David> non-standard conventions. I've been ignorant of this "convention" my entire mailing list career and it has never adversely affected me. Shrug, maybe I've been lucky, but I have dealt with a _lot_ of mailing lists and am continually subscribing and unsubscribing. Redirecting to list-managers: How prominent is this "standard"? Of your lists, how many have 'owner-list' as the owner, and how many have some other syntax? -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "Truth is an evaluation of a statement within a context." -- attributed to David Butterfield From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 16 18:24:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA17835; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 18:24:34 GMT Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA17829; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:24:28 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id LAA24222; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:27:52 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:27:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199407161827.LAA24222@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Useful 'Precendence:' values X-Attribution: JRhine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've scanned a variety of RFCs looking for a specification of possible values for the 'Precedence' header. I have been unable to find any such specification, and now that I think about it, any real reference at all. Could someone kindly point me towards a specification and/or list of acceptable values for the Internet Mail header 'Precedence'? -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." -- William James From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 16 20:39:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA18418; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 20:39:17 GMT Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA18412; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 13:39:09 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id QAA08832; Sat, 16 Jul 1994 16:29:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199407162029.QAA08832@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Useful 'Precendence:' values In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 16 Jul 1994 11:27:52 PDT." <199407161827.LAA24222@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 1994 16:29:11 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I've scanned a variety of RFCs looking for a specification of possible > values for the 'Precedence' header. I have been unable to find any such > specification, and now that I think about it, any real reference at all. Precedence is a sendmail-ism (though some other mailers support it), and is non-standard. Sendmail uses this header to determine queueing priority (which messages should be sent first) and also to determine whether a bounced message should include the entire contents of the original message or just the headers. Some versions of vacation recognize certain Precedence values to mean "don't send a vacation-gram in response to this message. The list of values includes list, junk, and bulk...but this varies according to which version of vacation you have. (Precedence: list is a recent invention, so older versions of vacation don't support it.) The usual reason to use the Precedence header with a mailing list is to keep vacation from replying to the message. HOWEVER, there is at least flavor kind of mail gateway which encodes the foreign mail system's idea of Priority into the Precedence header. If the Internet side of that gateway gets a message with a Precedence header that it doesn't understand, it bounces the message. (For example, "junk" will go through but "bulk" will not.) There is also at least one list server that refuses to forward any message to the list subscribers, that contains a Precedence header of junk. So there is NO value for precedence which will both work with vacation, and also pass through all of the mail handlers out there. I used to emit "Precedence: bulk" on my list traffic, but then someone behind a brain-damaged gateway subscribed to one of my lists. Then I changed it to "Precedence: junk", but eventually a list manager complained because his list-server was bouncing it. So now I don't emit "Precedence" at all, and I delete it if it appears in the input, before sending it to the list. To solve the vacation problem, I'm interested in defining a standard MIME format for vacation-style replies. @begin(soapbox) Any MTA, gateway, or list expander which refuses to pass a message because of the contents of an extension header is BROKEN. @end(soapbox) Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 20 15:05:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA05468; Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:05:15 GMT Received: from netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA05454; Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:04:46 -0700 Received: by netcom.com (8.6.8.1/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id IAA11456; Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:08:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199407201508.IAA11456@netcom5.netcom.com> From: Jerry Peek Date: Wed, 20 Jul 1994 08:08:16 PDT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailserver URL proposal Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This came from the URI list (uri@bunyip.com) by way of Jill Foster on the MBS list (mbs-user-req@mailbase.ac.uk). If you want to discuss it (and have your comments heard by the people working on the proposal), the place to do that is on the URI list. --Jerry Peek, jerry@ora.com >Date: Tue, 19 Jul 1994 21:33:41 -0400 >To: uri@bunyip.com >From: hoymand@gate.net (Dirk Herr-Hoyman) >Subject: Mailserver URL proposal > >As I began the call for a mailserver URL, I am now trying to back this up >with a concrete proposal. I know that there are some parts that may be >controversial, but I still feel this URL is needed in some form. The >mailto URL is insufficient. > >Larry had asked me to look at the MIME mailserver content type. >Unfortunately, this is inadequate as a URL, as it only specificies some >headers (the Subject) and leaves the body as itself. > >So, I came up with the proposal you see below, which I tried to make as >simple as possible, yet cover all the mailservers we are likely to see. >The part I am not sure about is substituting at run time, which feels alot >like a form. Here goes (and I've got my bullet-proof vest on, so fire away >:-) > >--- cut here --- > >Mailserver URL > >There are numerous mail servers that enable the retrieval of some >reasource by commands embedded in a mail message. Since there >is no uniform method for how the commands are embedded (Subject >header, body of the message) nor for the syntax of the commands >a general purpose mailserver URL is defined. > >This URL works differently than others defined to date, as it >delivers the resource asynchronously to a mailbox, rather than >synchronously on a TCP port, ready to be used directly. However, >as there is significant use of mailservers such a URL is needed >to accommodate current practice. Such servers serve an audience >that is not directly connected to the Internet and are likely >to remain important into the foreseeable future. > >URL:mailserver://// > >headers = *[ *xchar "/" ] >body = * bodysegment "/" >bodysegment = *uchars | *substsegment >substsegment = "?" *uchars | *uchars > > >In essense, the mailserver URL is composed of lines of text, with >end of line represented with a /. The mail header is separated from >the message body with a //, representing a blank line. This is, then, >a literatal translation of an RFC822 message into a URL form. > >In order to be delivered to the correct mailbox, From: header, >with a valid e-mail address, should be included in the mailserver >URL. As this is a run-time binding, it will be up to the client >software or other agent utilizing a mailserver URL to supply such >a line. > >Other run-time bindings might be desirable, such as adding the >full name to a "subscribe" command in the body of the message. >For these a "?token" is used to signify additional information >is needed. This could be filled on thru a forms mechanism on >a client, for example. > >Examples: > >The static URL, found in an HTML document for example, is: >mailserver://almanac@joe.ext.vt.edu//send%20joe%20june%201994%20feature%201 > >Actual URL used is: >mailserver://almanac@joe.ext.vt.edu/From:%20hoymand@gate.net//send%20joe%20j >une%201994%20feature%201 > >This sends the message "send joe june 1994 feature 1" to the email >server at almanac@joe.ext.vt.edu. The response will be delivered to >hoymand@gate.net. > >mailserver://listserv@uhupvm1.uh.edu//subscribe%20pacs-l?fullname > >This URL is used to send a "subscribe" message. Note the use of >"?fullname", which is means that additional text, in this case >a full name, is needed. > >The exact semantics of how the "?token" are used are left undefined. >The "token" string could be used in a prompt for input by a >client application. However, there is no guarantee that the string >"token" has any meaning, other than as a place holder. > > >Security Considerations > >This URL is essentially a means to send SMTP mail. Since the From >address is to be filled in at run-time, it could be a vehicle for sending >forged mail. However, such forgery is already possible thru executing >mail transport agents directly, such as sendmail, or in POP mail clients. >This URL does not create any higher degree of insecurity in SMTP mail, >though it could contribute to an already insecure situation > >-- >Dirk Herr-Hoyman | Practice >CyberBeach Publishing | random acts of kindness > * Internet publishing services | and senseless beauty >Lake Worth, Florida, USA | >Home Page: >Phone: +1.407.540.8309 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 21 10:35:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA20790; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 17:13:39 GMT Received: from cray.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA20780; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 10:13:19 -0700 Received: from sdiv.cray.com (ironwood.cray.com) by cray.com (Bob mailer 1.3) id AA16262; Thu, 21 Jul 94 12:16:32 CDT Received: from birch111 by sdiv.cray.com (5.0/CRI-5.15.b.orgabbr Sdiv) id AA03428; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:16:31 +0600 Received: from localhost by birch111 (5.0/btd-b2) id AA10194; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:16:30 +0600 Message-Id: <9407211716.AA10194@birch111> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: News to Mail gateways Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 12:16:29 -0500 From: David Bowen Content-Length: 542 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The list that I manage has reached the point where conversion to a news group is a possibility. We have around 200 subscribers and another 200 receiving a daily digest. Traffic runs around 20 messages/day. One obstacle is the fact that some of our subscribers do not currently have access to Usenet news. I know news/mail gateways exist. Are there standard ones available via ftp or do people roll their own? Reply either to the list or to me directly. I will post a summary if people are interested. David Bowen dmb@sdiv.cray.com From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 21 10:41:58 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA20977; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 17:23:15 GMT Received: from midway.uchicago.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA20966; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 10:22:51 -0700 From: ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu Received: from kimbark.uchicago.edu by midway.uchicago.edu for majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Thu, 21 Jul 94 12:26:13 CDT Received: from localhost.uchicago.edu by kimbark.uchicago.edu (4.1/UCCO-1.0A) id AA24229; Thu, 21 Jul 94 12:25:57 CDT Message-Id: <9407211725.AA24229@kimbark.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: My Listproc-Majordomo comparison Date: Thu, 21 Jul 94 12:25:56 -0500 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's a slight revision of something I posted to comp.mail.misc, following up a thread there. Some people on the Majordomo-Users and List-Managers lists apparently hadn't seen this on the newsgroup. Feel free to add this to whatever archives. Tasos, the author of ListProc, said that I was basically on the mark concerning ListProc. Chris Koenigsberg: ckk@uchicago.edu, ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu U. of Chicago Academic Information Technologies ######################## Subject: Re: Which is better Majordomo or Listserv? References: <2t7qgu$773@ccnet.ccnet.com> The real LISTSERV (Revised LISTSERV) relies on Bitnet networking transport protocols. A complex Unix list processor was written, in a partial emulation of the Bitnet LISTSERV. The "Listserv for Unix" system was renamed "listproc" last summer, after threats from the original LISTSERV author, because it differs in user interface and list owner interface from LISTSERV, and was accused of misleading users who would confuse it with the "real thing". Majordomo was apparently written, in Perl, because listproc (AKA Unix LISTSERV) was too complex and did not do quite what was needed to manage a set of Usenix SAGE mailing lists. LISTSERV and ListProc want the whole world to be interconnected, i.e. all mailing list server hosts can know about each other and exchange info on remote lists; someday I imagine there'll be a DNS-like namespace of mailing lists and server hosts out there somehow. Majordomo, on the other hand, is a much smaller package, designed for easier administration on an individual host, and I have even heard (on the Majordomo-Users list) that some Majordomo hosts do NOT wish their lists advertised publicly on the net. We (U. of Chicago Academic Information Technologies) are planning to go ahead and offer new campus list management service soon using Majordomo, but we did have some requests from faculty to use listproc (they asked for LISTSERV but since this is on Unix, they would have to get listproc instead). I tried briefly to configure and build listproc for a comparison test, but gave up when it got weird, probably too soon, maybe I'll try again when I have more time to play with compilers etc :-) Listproc documentation etc. is a bit cryptic and not well thought out overall, at least from the point of view of someone new to the concept trying to understand all of its complex workings. I have seen correspondence from the Listproc author, on the listproc users' mailing list archives, where he defends his documentation because it is in the usual Unix style. (maybe "damning by faint praise"? :-) Majordomo is simpler and written in Perl scripts, so documentation is more comprehensive, and is improving, as an active community of developers is contributing to it. It only took 2 days for the current maintainers to put out small patches to fix some recently-discovered potential security holes, and since it's Perl, no recompilation is needed. Listproc requires a server daemon to be alive, which forks off child processes somewhat like lpd, and appears to be designed to do a lot of complex, tricky things which requires a lot of C source code doing networking stuff (multi-level automated archiving and indexing, with retrieval via ftpmail, automatic digestification creation and propagation, remote cooperation of "peer" list hosts, interactive administration via TCP connections, operation over other transport and delivery protocols besides TCP and SMTP, maintain its own message queueing system independently of the system mail queues, ...), which are perhaps overkill (for us, in a completely Internet TCP/SMTP environment), perhaps not, this is what I'd like to hear more discussion about. Majordomo is more focused on the essentials of individual mailing list management, and is implemented as Perl scripts, which are modular and can be used in subsets, as they are individually invoked out of system mail aliases. It lets the underlying system software do the networking and message queueing stuff, so it doesn't have to deal with TCP sockets etc. Majordomo's recently-added archiving, digestification, etc. is simpler than listproc's, and is undergoing more improvements. Apparently, Listproc's daemon with its own queueing system used to give better performance, for high-traffic lists on heavily loaded server hosts, than older versions of sendmail. But now, newer sendmail versions have greatly improved efficiency so Majordomo with new sendmail may be just as fast and load-capable as a Listproc system. (comments welcomed on this point?) With Listproc, if you can get it configured and running smoothly, you can apparently join a growing inter-operating network of cooperating "peer" list hosts, and even inter-operate with Bitnet LISTSERV list hosts too. Thus your local users can easily find out about other lists elsewhere, you can have local re-distributions for a larger global list, etc. (but re-distributions can be a source of administrative headache when global list owners try to track down mysterious errors, or unsubscribe requests from people who aren't subscribed to the global list.... :-). One big flaw in Listproc's design, in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong!), is that it does funny things to the headers of outgoing messages which are arguably "wrong" in the RFC 822 SMTP world (I've seen arguments in the listproc users' archives), and for incoming messages, it only uses the Unix From field (i.e. the SMTP Envelope MAIL FROM, in the SMTP world) to determine the sender's identity, for subscribing, unsubscribing, accepting or rejecting messages, etc. Majordomo on the other hand will use the RFC 822 headers (Gene Spafford's Perl code for parsing mail headers), so it will recognize a "Reply-To:" for example, and will allow you to subscribe your canonical address, even if the return path of your message is convoluted (although the list owner may need to approve your subscription). You have various per-list configuration options, about what appears in the various RFC 822/SMTP headers, concerning the return address for errors, the default reply address (to the list, to the original author, to the list owner/moderator, etc.)... Both Listproc and Majordomo share concepts like moderated lists. Listproc's moderated lists have a queue of incoming messages, and the moderator has to approve or reject them by giving the message queue numbers to the server, in order to clear the queue. For a moderated list, Majordomo simply bounces messages to the moderator and then forgets about them, so the moderator can easily re-submit them with an approval password in a new header. Any message arriving with the proper approval password header will be automatically approved and propagated to the list. An outfit called CREN, an offshoot of Educom, has taken over the development of both the Bitnet LISTSERV, and the Unix Listproc, and is planning to offer a commercial version of Listproc sometime later in 1994. They have a global vision building on the inter-operating "peer" list host concept, integrating gopher, ftp, etc. (their vision statement doesn't mention WWW but I assume that must be added soon :-). We are very interested to see if CREN's new Listproc version will come with improved support, including better documentation, and we might consider switching to it sometime in the future, but we are planning to stick with Majordomo for now. Chris Koenigsberg: ckk@uchicago.edu, ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu U. of Chicago Academic Information Technologies From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 21 11:05:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA21530; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 18:02:18 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA21482; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:00:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199407211800.LAA21482@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: ckk@uchicago.edu cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: My Listproc-Majordomo comparison In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 21 Jul 94 12:25:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:00:45 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ckoenig@midway.uchicago.edu writes: # Majordomo was apparently written, in Perl, because listproc (AKA Unix # LISTSERV) was too complex and did not do quite what was needed to # manage a set of Usenix SAGE mailing lists. That was _exactly_ why Majordomo was written. I obtained and tried to install and configure listproc, spent a day or two on it, and decided it was going to be easier to write something in perl that would do exactly what I wanted. For a discussion of the why's and wherefore's and early genesis of Majordomo, take a look at my paper "How I manage 17 mailing lists without answering -request mail", originally published at the USENIX LISA 6 conference a couple of years ago, and now available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM, file pub/majordomo/majordomo.paper.ps.Z. # Majordomo, on the other hand, is a much smaller package, designed for # easier administration on an individual host Well, it started out that way anyway... There's a growing trend to add ever more features to Majordomo. This is one of the reasons I'm no longer actively involved in Majordomo development I have nothing against and no arguments with the folks (particularly John Rouillard, who is managing the whole effort) who are working hard to extend and expand Majordomo; I just have no interest in participating. Majordomo already does most of what _I_ want it to do. I'm extremely pleased that other folks are finding it useful, and finding it a good platform to use as a starting point for the things _they_ want to do. # and I have even heard (on # the Majordomo-Users list) that some Majordomo hosts do NOT wish their # lists advertised publicly on the net. Yes. I expect that there are at least as many Majordomo servers running private lists as public ones. # I tried briefly to configure and build listproc for a comparison test, # but gave up when it got weird, probably too soon, maybe I'll try again # when I have more time to play with compilers etc :-) Listproc # documentation etc. is a bit cryptic and not well thought out overall, # at least from the point of view of someone new to the concept trying # to understand all of its complex workings. I have seen correspondence # from the Listproc author, on the listproc users' mailing list # archives, where he defends his documentation because it is in the # usual Unix style. (maybe "damning by faint praise"? :-) As opposed to Majordomo's documentation, which was almost non-existant until recently... :-) Actually, the new README file that John Rouillard wrote, the chapter from the new "Managing Internet Information Services" book from O'Reilly & Associates that they let us extract and make available for anonymous FTP, the online manual pages for some components written by Jim Duncan, the FAQ originally assembled by Vincent Skahan, as well as contributions by lots of other folks, go a long way towards improving the documentation situation for Majordomo. # Majordomo is simpler and written in Perl scripts, so documentation is # more comprehensive, and is improving Well, OK. :-) When I was doing most of the Majordomo development, I always said that documentation (or lack thereof) was one of Majordomo's weak points, and I'm glad to see that the documentation is improving faster than new features are being added now that somebody else has taken over development. # as an active community of # developers is contributing to it. It only took 2 days for the current # maintainers to put out small patches to fix some recently-discovered # potential security holes, and since it's Perl, no recompilation is # needed. I think this is one of the key strengths of Majordomo: the very active Majordomo-Users and Majordomo-Workers mailing lists. They go a long way towards making up for the documentation (or lack thereof); you can ask a question, and get a helpful and almost immediate answer. # Apparently, Listproc's daemon with its own queueing system used to # give better performance, for high-traffic lists on heavily loaded # server hosts, than older versions of sendmail. But now, newer sendmail # versions have greatly improved efficiency so Majordomo with new # sendmail may be just as fast and load-capable as a Listproc system. # (comments welcomed on this point?) I have no experience with listproc in order to provide a comparison, but here's a data point. I run the Firewalls mailing list, with over 2000 subscribers and about 20-40 messages/day, plus a couple of dozen other mailing lists (totalling another couple of thousand subscribers and another 20-40 messages/day) on a Sun 3/60. Upgrading to the new 8.6.x version of Sendmail made an immense difference in performance. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 21 19:00:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA22708; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 19:00:47 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA22650; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 11:59:42 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA07353; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 15:03:07 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27546; Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:52:02 -0400 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 1994 14:52:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Houghton Mifflin Math Subject: Re: My Listproc-Majordomo comparison To: ckk@uchicago.edu Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407211725.AA24229@kimbark.uchicago.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been doing some research on mailing lists and I would like to make a small clarification. Listproc (formerly named "Unix Listserv") will be released as a commercial product. However, try not to get this confused with another commercial product created by the original author of LISTSERV - "LISTSERV for Unix". LISTSERV for Unix has been ported over from the original VM platform on BITNET and is now fully functional and supported on Unix. LISTSERV for Unix is a product of L-SOFT International (sales@lsoft.com). From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 03:59:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA07696; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:40:51 GMT Received: from CRVAX.SRI.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA07690; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 02:40:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199407220940.CAA07690@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: From PIGPEN.SRI.COM by CRVAX.SRI.COM with TCP; Fri, 22 JUL 94 00:53:23 PDT X-Sender: vivian@sri.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 00:53:42 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: vivian@sri.com (Vivian Neou) Subject: New version of the LoL X-Mailer: Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have almost completed a major revision of the List of Lists. This is the list of e-mail lists that was originally started by Rich Zellich back when there was only an Arpanet. I am sending this notice out now rather than when I am completely done because I will have time for the next couple weeks to make quick updates if you find mistakes in the current version - so if you are a list owner, please check your entry in the list and let me know if there are errors. This is the first complete revision of the list in many years. I have attempted to verify that all the lists are still valid. However, there are over 900 entries in this list and I cannot guarantee the accuracy of each listing. If you find errors please let me know! I also appreciate getting entries for lists that are not included in the current LoL. The new list is on SRI.COM and may be retrieved via anonymous FTP or through the e-mail server at MAIL-SERVER@SRI.COM (include the command "send interest-groups.txt" in your message). I am looking for a few new official sites for the list, since SRI will not be able to host it much longer. If you are interested in officially hosting the list, please let me know (I will continue to do updates on my system at home - I would just like to make the list available on one or more sites with good connectivity). Please send updates to me (vivian@sri.com) rather than to the old update address (interest-groups-request@nisc.sri.com). I will probably be putting up new versions of the list every 3-4 days through the beginning of August. After the list has settled down, I will only be putting out new versions once a month. Vivian Neou From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 13:55:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA09501; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 13:55:49 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA09485; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 06:55:31 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA20525; Fri, 22 Jul 94 15:58:29 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA03770; Fri, 22 Jul 94 15:57:42 +0200 Message-Id: <9407221357.AA03770@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:57:41 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: MIME digest format, contents and administrivia Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As far as I know, MIME digest format only caters for the individual messages inside of it. It doesn't really say what to do with a contents listing or an administrivia paragraph. Common sense suggests that you'd simply insert these between the header and the first separator (according to the old de-facto digest format). However, experience shows that some MIME readers tend to throw away this kind of out-of-band information. They can't really be blamed because the MIME rfc indeed says that it's an implementation issue if this information is displayed or not. What do you think is the best way to deal with this (from a digest-generator point of view)? 1. Indeed stick the info between header and first separator. Assuming that mail readers will improve and will soon be capable of displaying this information as well? 2. Create a pseudo message at the front of the digest and stick it in there? 3. Something else? -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Good moaning!" From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 15:07:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA10164; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:07:53 GMT Received: from grendel.tac.nyc.ny.us by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA10157; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:07:42 -0700 Received: (from news@localhost) by grendel.tac.nyc.ny.us (8.6.9/8.6.9/1.21.kim) with netnews id PAA26417 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:45:03 +0100 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:37:27 GMT From: kim@tac.nyc.ny.us (Kimmo Suominen) Message-ID: Organization: Trans-Atlantic Communications References: <9407221357.AA03770@tabaqui> Subject: Re: MIME digest format, contents and administrivia Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "SRB" == Stephen R van den Berg >>>>> writes: SRB> 1. Indeed stick the info between header and first SRB> separator. Assuming that mail readers will improve and SRB> will soon be capable of displaying this information as SRB> well? Usually this space is used to inform non-MIME recipients that the following message is in MIME. MIME-capable readers really usually throw away this bit. SRB> 2. Create a pseudo message at the front of the digest and SRB> stick it in there? This would sound like the way to to me. -- ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ( Kimmo Suominen "That's what I think" ) ( Trans-Atlantic Communications kim@tac.nyc.ny.us ) '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 08:46:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA10892; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 15:38:56 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA10876; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 08:38:35 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA21016; Fri, 22 Jul 94 17:41:42 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA03972; Fri, 22 Jul 94 17:40:56 +0200 Message-Id: <9407221540.AA03972@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 17:40:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: Kimmo Suominen's message as of 1994 Jul 22 Fri 14:37. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MIME digest format, contents and administrivia Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kimmo Suominen wrote: >>>>>> "SRB" == Stephen R van den Berg >>>>>> writes: >SRB> 1. Indeed stick the info between header and first >SRB> separator. Assuming that mail readers will improve and >SRB> will soon be capable of displaying this information as >SRB> well? >Usually this space is used to inform non-MIME recipients that >the following message is in MIME. Hmmm..., but this information is actually unneeded because the MIME-digest format can easily be read without a MIME reader. -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Good moaning!" From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 16:07:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA11386; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:07:30 GMT Received: from ELZIP.UTHSCSA.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA11379; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:07:23 -0700 Received: from spcmail.uthscsa.edu (YAHOO) by uthscsa.edu (PMDF V4.3-8 #5193) id <01HF06OTVUSG006BBI@uthscsa.edu>; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 11:10:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 11:11:18 +0000 From: Scott Mitchell Subject: Re: MIME digest format, contents and administrivia To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01HF06OTWXDE006BBI@uthscsa.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Usually this space is used to inform non-MIME recipients that >> the following message is in MIME. > Hmmm..., but this information is actually unneeded because the MIME-digest > format can easily be read without a MIME reader. When MIME was new, the boundary markers confused people who didn't have MIME readers. This use of the "preamble" area was actually hinted at in RFC1341. Scott Mitchell University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio mitchell@uthscsa.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 22 16:42:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA11867; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 16:42:36 GMT Received: from jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA11858; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:41:40 -0700 Received: from unicorn.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk by jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <07588-0@jess.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>; Fri, 22 Jul 1994 17:44:25 +0100 To: berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Stephen R. van den Berg) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MIME digest format, contents and administrivia In-reply-to: Message from berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE of 22 Jul 1994 15:57:41 BST X-Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Jul 1994 17:44:09 +0100 Message-ID: <5769.774895449@unicorn.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk> From: David Osborne Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephen R. van den Berg writes [22 Jul 1994 15:57:41 BST]: > As far as I know, MIME digest format only caters for the individual > messages inside of it. > It doesn't really say what to do with a contents listing or an administrivia > paragraph. Common sense suggests that you'd simply insert these between > the header and the first separator (according to the old de-facto digest > format). [...] > What do you think is the best way to deal with this (from a digest-generator > point of view)? > 1. Indeed stick the info between header and first separator. Assuming that > mail readers will improve and will soon be capable of displaying this > information as well? > 2. Create a pseudo message at the front of the digest and stick it in there? > 3. Something else? There's a discussion of how to do this using MIME in Jerry Sweet's paper on the MIME facilities in MH, "A Multi-Media E-Mail Tutorial With MH" (available via anonymous ftp: ftp://ftp.ics.uci.edu/mh/contrib/multimedia/mhn-tutorial.ps.Z (141k) ftp://ftp.ics.uci.edu/mh/contrib/multimedia/mhn-tutorial.tex.Z (48k) ) The example in section 4.2 shows how Marshall Rose builds a MIME version of his newsletter, "The Simple Times", each copy being a multipart/mixed document, with nested multiparts containing text/plain parts for the title and contents. The example isn't a mail digest, but could easily include a multipart/digest part. I've been thinking on and off for a while now of distributing the UKTeX Digest and TeXhax Digest in this form. ~~David Osborne Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham (UKTeX Digest and TeXhax Digest editor/moderator) mail: David.Osborne@nottingham.ac.uk From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 24 17:58:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA05731; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 17:58:12 GMT Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA05725; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 10:57:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199407241757.KAA05725@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4186; Sun, 24 Jul 94 19:59:19 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 0388; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 19:59:19 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 19:58:48 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Clarifications regarding LISTSERV To: list-managers@GREATCIRCLE.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been sent a copy of a couple of messages recently posted to this list. Some of these messages contain incorrect information, which I would like to correct. I understand that these are genuine mistakes and am not trying to insinuate anything :-) I just want to prevent incorrect information from spreading and getting out of control. >The real LISTSERV (Revised LISTSERV) relies on Bitnet networking >transport protocols. This was true until L-Soft international, the company that now develops and sells LISTSERV, released LISTSERV-TCP/IP in March 94 (back then, for VM only). LISTSERV-TCP/IP is fully compatible with the regular LISTSERV, except of course that you lose the functions that are specific to BITNET, like NJE delivery. LISTSERV-TCP/IP interoperates with regular LISTSERVs running version 1.7f (APR93) or higher (96% of the LISTSERVs do). >A complex Unix list processor was written, in a partial emulation of the >Bitnet LISTSERV. The "Listserv for Unix" system was renamed "listproc" >last summer, after threats from the original LISTSERV author, because it >differs in user interface and list owner interface from LISTSERV, and >was accused of misleading users who would confuse it with the "real >thing". Well, ListProc users were contacting me for assistance on solving ListProc problems, saying they saw my name in the help file and, between that and the name of the product, assumed I wrote it, in spite of the copyright on the documentation :-) In many instances these requests were even made on public lists, so anyone can check I'm not making it up :-) I have never had that problem with Majordomo, and in fact I never had any problem with Majordomo or its authors. There is clearly a need for a powerful, free list manager for people who would not be able to afford a commercial product, and Majordomo is a good choice because the source code is automatically available and people can make the modifications they want or need. This was one of the reasons for the initial success of LISTSERV (which was initially written in REXX, a scripting language for VM). If people had a problem, they could easily change the code to do what they wanted. They would then tell me about the change they made, and I would arrange for it to be possible without code change in the next version. >LISTSERV and ListProc want the whole world to be interconnected, i.e. >all mailing list server hosts can know about each other and exchange >info on remote lists; someday I imagine there'll be a DNS-like namespace >of mailing lists and server hosts out there somehow. Actually, it already exists. You can reach any non-confidential LISTSERV list by writing to listname@LISTSERV.NET, or the (human) manager by writing to listname-request@LISTSERV.NET, the LISTSERV by writing to listname-server@LISTSERV.NET, and so on. You can get more information about that by ordering (via GET) the file NSC93US.PS from LISTSERV@SEARN.SUNET.SE (the handout for a LISTSERV tutorial at the NSC'93 conference). >(they asked for LISTSERV but since this is on Unix, they would have to >get listproc instead). The first version of the (real) LISTSERV for unix was announced in May 94 and formally released on June 23. While some of the code hasn't been ported yet, there are already 90,000 lines of code and about 75% of the functionality of the original VM server. The remainder will be ported over the next year or so. LISTSERV is also available for VMS and is being ported to NT, Windows 4.0, and quite possibly OS/2. The code is very easy to port to new environments - the first unix version was created from the VM version in about a week, and polished in another week. Then we ran into all sorts of weird situations with sendmail which took another 2 weeks to isolate and do something about, but that's another story :-) >With Listproc, if you can get it configured and running smoothly, you >can apparently join a growing inter-operating network of cooperating >"peer" list hosts, and even inter-operate with Bitnet LISTSERV list >hosts too. That is not quite true. While both systems support peered lists, you cannot peer a LISTSERV list with a ListProc list. You can make a number of kludges which somehow cause messages to flow back and forth without a loop, but you will not get load balancing, request forwarding, etc. Technically, such setups are not peers, but "mirrors". >An outfit called CREN, an offshoot of Educom, has taken over the >development of both the Bitnet LISTSERV, and the Unix Listproc, This is not correct. While CREN did purchase the rights to ListProc from Tasos in March, they have absolutely no involvement with LISTSERV's development. They simply purchased service on behalf of all their members for the period 1 Dec 93 to 30 Jun 94 (in fact it is more complicated, and I won't try to sum up 30 pages of legalese in 2 lines, but at any rate this is a service/support purchase and CREN did not acquire anything closely or remotely resembling software ownership). The purchase of ListProc was kept secret from us during the negotiations and announced 6 days after the signature of the service contract. So, as you can see, there is really no tie between CREN and LISTSERV other than this service contract. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 24 18:18:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA05872; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 18:18:29 GMT Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA05866; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 11:18:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199407241818.LAA05866@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4206; Sun, 24 Jul 94 20:19:41 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 0635; Sun, 24 Jul 1994 20:19:41 +0200 Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 20:08:13 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Clarifications regarding LISTSERV To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 24 Jul 1994 19:58:48 +0200 from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 24 Jul 1994 19:58:48 +0200 Eric Thomas said: >ported to NT, Windows 4.0, and quite possibly OS/2. The code is very >easy to port to new environments - the first unix version was created >from the VM version in about a week, and polished in another week. *sigh* I knew I was going to make a mistake! The unix version was created from the *VMS* version, which was the first non-VM version, in 1-2 weeks. The VMS version took months to create from the VM version, which itself took years to be rewritten in a portable fashion (this work started in 1991). All versions use the same source code for system-independent functions. I forgot the exact numbers, I think this is about 70,000 lines of code. The first unix version was built by compiling this common code, which knows nothing about operating systems, and then copying the VMS interface code, deleting everything that was implemented with native VMS calls rather than C library calls, filling in the gaps, and adding a sendmail interface. I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say - I was certainly not trying to claim that porting the original VM code to unix was a week of work :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 27 17:55:25 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA08911; Wed, 27 Jul 1994 17:55:25 GMT Received: from caesun6.epg.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id KAA08905; Wed, 27 Jul 1994 10:55:13 -0700 Received: from iowa.epg.harris.com by caesun6.epg.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14833; Wed, 27 Jul 94 13:58:46 EDT Received: by iowa.epg.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA00670; Wed, 27 Jul 94 14:04:13 EDT Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 14:04:13 EDT From: dmp@epg.harris.com (Donald Patterson) Message-Id: <9407271804.AA00670@iowa.epg.harris.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Help! in configuring majordomo Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am just configuring majordomo to manage a number of (15!) lists. I have been testing things with a single list for a few weeks, with things going pretty smoothly. Suddenly today, (after a restore?), I began getting "mailer error 5" (returned message attached). I found in the /src/README some discussion about this: unknown mailer error 5 - This can be caused by a number of things all relating to the wrappers inability to execute the perl script. This can include: the perl script is not executable the location of the perl program specified with the #! line is incorrect the location where the wrapper looks for the perl scripts is not the location where the scripts are located. Questions are: 1. where is the #! line that is referred to? 2. Unrelated: Why do my approval requests come from majordom and not majordomo? (They also tell me to send approvals *to* majordom, which is wrong.) My aliases file begins with: # listmgr: majordomo majordomo: "|/net/caesun6/home/users/majordomo/wrapper majordomo" majordomo-owner: dmp owner-majordomo: dmp majordom: dmp I have a few other questions, but don't want to "wear out my welcome"! Thanks in advance, _____________________________________________________________________________ Don Patterson, Iowa'82 \\ INTERNET : dmp@epg.harris.com | _ _ | Harris Corporation \\ UUCP : ...!uunet!x102a!dpatterson |_| |_| | | Engr. Productivity Group \\ CCMAIL : DPatters | _|_ |_/\/\/\|_| 1025 W. Nasa Blvd, MS E300\\ VOICE : (407) 729-3907| | | |_| |_| | Melbourne, FL 32919 \\ FAX : (407) 724-3399| WON BY ONE| |_________| >From daemon Wed Jul 27 11:31:00 1994 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 11:30:59 EDT From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: unknown mailer error 5 To: dmp ----- Transcript of session follows ----- majordomo: No such file or directory 554 "|/net/caesun6/home/users/majordomo/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 5 ----- Unsent message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: by iowa.epg.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA00531; Wed, 27 Jul 94 11:30:59 EDT Date: Wed, 27 Jul 94 11:30:59 EDT From: dmp (Donald Patterson) Message-Id: <9407271530.AA00531@iowa.epg.harris.com> To: majordomo lists end ----- End Included Message ----- From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 27 19:53:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id TAA10876; Wed, 27 Jul 1994 19:53:03 GMT Received: from netcom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA10870; Wed, 27 Jul 1994 12:52:53 -0700 Received: by netcom.com (8.6.8.1/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id MAA13957; Wed, 27 Jul 1994 12:56:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 12:56:48 -0700 From: mcb@netcom.com (Michael C. Berch) Message-Id: <199407271956.MAA13957@netcom11.netcom.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Help! in configuring majordomo Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dmp@epg.harris.com (Donald Patterson) writes: > I am just configuring majordomo to manage a number of (15!) lists. I have > been testing things with a single list for a few weeks, with things going > pretty smoothly. Suddenly today, (after a restore?), I began getting > "mailer error 5" (returned message attached). [etc. ...] Just a gentle reminder that Majordomo-specific questions should really be directed to the Majordomo-Users or Majordomo-Workers mailing lists, where you can get pretty good responses to questions and problems like this. List-Managers is more focused on general policy issues, methods and procedures, etc., and not everybody runs Majordomo (or LISTSERV or Listproc, or whatever). For info on the Majordomo lists send a message to Majordomo-Users-Request@GreatCircle.COM Majordomo-Workers-Request@GreatCircle.COM Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch List-Managers list manager List stuff: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com In real life: mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@netcom.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 28 12:18:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id MAA27895; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 12:18:46 GMT Received: from tso.uc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id FAA27889; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 05:18:37 -0700 Received: (from johnb@localhost) by tso.uc.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA09233 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:13:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 08:13:18 -0400 From: "John Byczkowski" Message-Id: <199407281213.IAA09233@tso.uc.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Policies and problems of lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My name is John Byczkowski, and I'm a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer, the morning daily here. I'm writing an article about Internet mailing lists, and would be interested in talking to a few list managers about trends and problems in this field. Is the trend toward moderated or unmoderated lists? How do you effectively deal with users who get out of line (posting off-topic, flaming, etc.)? Does anyone out there fear being sued for actions taken while managing a list? I personally feel that joining a mail list is the best way to meet people online, and I want to give readers a sense of what to expect and a few rules of etiquette (I'll learn to spell that before I write the article). I'm on deadline, so quick responses would be much appreciated. E-mail me here with your phone number and I'll call you, or call me at 513-768-8503. Thanks in advance.....John B. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 28 13:24:24 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id NAA28871; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 13:24:24 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id GAA28865; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 06:24:16 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA15711; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 09:28:04 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11462; Thu, 28 Jul 1994 09:28:01 -0400 Date: Thu, 28 Jul 1994 09:28:01 -0400 (EDT) From: bill f banks Subject: Re: Policies and problems of lists To: usr7156a@TSO.UC.EDU Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407281213.IAA09233@tso.uc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi John, I'm a list manager. Also I'm handicap, on the net their are no handicaps. Maybe you want to talk to me about your story. Bill Banks 508-829-2005 On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, John Byczkowski wrote: > > My name is John Byczkowski, and I'm a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer, > the morning daily here. > > I'm writing an article about Internet mailing lists, and would be interested > in talking to a few list managers about trends and problems in this field. > > Is the trend toward moderated or unmoderated lists? How do you effectively > deal with users who get out of line (posting off-topic, flaming, etc.)? Does > anyone out there fear being sued for actions taken while managing a list? > > I personally feel that joining a mail list is the best way to meet people > online, and I want to give readers a sense of what to expect and a few rules > of etiquette (I'll learn to spell that before I write the article). > > I'm on deadline, so quick responses would be much appreciated. E-mail me here > with your phone number and I'll call you, or call me at 513-768-8503. > > Thanks in advance.....John B. > > From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 29 14:33:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA15302; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:33:51 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id HAA15288; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 07:33:10 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA04708 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 29 Jul 1994 09:32:42 -0500 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA18778; 29 Jul 94 09:22:29 CDT (Fri) Subject: New Rider's Internet Yellow Pages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 9:22:27 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9407290922.AA18778@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Just picked this book up and I was displeased with what I found. Despite the fact they used the Publicly Accessible Mailing Lists and didn't credit me for it, they also published the posting address for every single mailing list they listed (which they referred to as "listservs). Needless to say, I wrote them a letter about it outlining my disappoval. I think from now on, I'll refuse permission whenever anyone asks if they can use the PAML. Too many people jumping on the Internet bandwagon to make a buck and we're starting to get people not very familiar with the topic they're writing about. Tho the flood of books may have peaked. I was talking with someone at Que and he said that bookstores are starting to say "No more Internet books" as their shelves are full, plus they don't have enough expertise on the Internet to sell them to the public. Makes sense. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 29 15:25:57 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id PAA15805; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 15:25:57 GMT Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id IAA15797; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 08:25:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199407291525.IAA15797@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3461; Fri, 29 Jul 94 17:26:30 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 9147; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:26:29 +0200 Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:23:39 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: New Rider's Internet Yellow Pages To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 29 Jul 94 9:22:27 CDT from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A friend of mine, who is a teacher, is getting free copies of all sorts of Internet books (the publishers hope that she'll like them and tell students to buy them). Most of them talk about mailing lists. More than 90% contain information that is technically incorrect. I'm not talking about subtle details here, but about things that Joe Internet User with his two mailing list subscriptions knows. The first time I saw that, I got angry and wanted to write to the publisher. By the time I had gone through the pile, I decided it wasn't worth it. It would be a full time job :-( Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 29 21:30:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id VAA19739; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 21:30:12 GMT Received: from mailhost.phantom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id OAA19720; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:29:44 -0700 Received: from mindvox (mindvox.phantom.com) by mailhost.phantom.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26220; Fri, 29 Jul 94 17:54:26 EDT Received: by mindvox (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21154; Fri, 29 Jul 94 17:32:27 EDT Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:32:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Cabinet Cat Subject: Re: Policies and problems of lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: usr7156a@tso.uc.edu In-Reply-To: <199407290810.BAA12303@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Jul 1994 List-Managers-Digest-Owner@GreatCircle.COM wrote: > Is the trend toward moderated or unmoderated lists? How do you effectively > deal with users who get out of line (posting off-topic, flaming, etc.)? Does > anyone out there fear being sued for actions taken while managing a list? I think there's a growing trend toward more lists that happen to be moderated, but I don't think it's necessarily going to become The Way to run a list. It's just becoming more necessary in some cases as the New grows and the number of computer-novices grows. I've toyed with the idea of making my lists moderated, but only because there are SO many bounced emails and error messages that you have to do it in order to filter out auto-generated garbage. Just today my biggest list got spammed with over 200 copies of the same 5 emails, because a subscriber's mailer went psycho. What can you do in such a case, other than watch dozens of pissed-off subscribers scream? People out of line? Well, I like to run my lists loosely...I'll only throw people off for INTENTIONAL mail-bombing, or out-of-control mailer problems. Though I have to admit, sometimes I think about it...it's very, VERY easy for flame wars to start, even o lists devoted to the most innocuous subjects. > I personally feel that joining a mail list is the best way to meet people > online, and I want to give readers a sense of what to expect and a few rules > of etiquette (I'll learn to spell that before I write the article). Rule number 1: The etiquette of a given list is whatever that list's manager says it is. Rule number 2: See Rule 1. :) Seriously though, even the most obvious ones need to be spelled out, in my experience: Don't send listserver commands to the list. Don't quote entire DIGESTS back to the list. Don't be a jerk. for some reason, these concepts are very hrd for some people to grasp. ___________________________________________________________ Aaron Dickey kieran@phantom.com More insomniacs subscribe to World News Now than to any other mailing list! wnn-request@world.std.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 29 22:06:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id WAA20482; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 22:06:49 GMT Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id PAA20476; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 15:06:23 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (skeeve.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.130]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) with ESMTP id RAA26818; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:09:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199407292209.RAA26818@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Cabinet Cat cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, usr7156a@tso.uc.edu, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: Policies and problems of lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:32:26 EDT." Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:09:41 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cabinet Cat writes: > >I've toyed with the idea of making my lists moderated, but only because >there are SO many bounced emails and error messages that you have to do >it in order to filter out auto-generated garbage. Just today my biggest >list got spammed with over 200 copies of the same 5 emails, because a >subscriber's mailer went psycho. What can you do in such a case, other >than watch dozens of pissed-off subscribers scream? > This is one of the reasons that the sun-managers mailing list has 2 very useful features. 1. A list of addresses that is checks to see if the mail should be refused. This is for the case above where they get the message and remail it back with new message-id, etc. basicly "if (from == bozo-in-list) exit" 2. A database of message-id's that have already been feed through the list. In this way, the sites that misconfigure their alias to include the main list, or improper use of mail->news->mail drops these messages and users do not get upset. One of these days, if time ever permits, I'm going to add those features into the resend of majordomo. Hopefully someone will beat me to it. ;-) --gene From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 30 00:27:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id AAA21948; Sat, 30 Jul 1994 00:27:41 GMT Received: from tango.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id RAA21937; Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:27:30 -0700 Received: from hustle.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA05875 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:30:15 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24737 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:30:15 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA18700 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM); Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:30:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199407300030.AA18700@bolero.rahul.net> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Policies and problems of lists In-Reply-To: <199407292209.RAA26818@antares.mcs.anl.gov> Date: Fri, 29 Jul 94 17:30:13 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gene Rackow wrote: > 1. A list of addresses that is checks to see if the mail should be refused. > This is for the case above where they get the message and remail it back > with new message-id, etc. > basicly "if (from == bozo-in-list) exit" > > 2. A database of message-id's that have already been feed through the list. > In this way, the sites that misconfigure their alias to include the main > list, or improper use of mail->news->mail drops these messages and users > do not get upset. > > One of these days, if time ever permits, I'm going to add those features > into the resend of majordomo. Hopefully someone will beat me to it. ;-) The Procmail/SmartList mailing list package for unix systems does all this already. I'm plugging it here because it usually gets little mention when comparisons of mailing list programs are made. It: catches duplicates, filters admin stuff away from the public list, can handle reject/accept lists (lists of people who are not allowed to post/list of people who are allowed to post), handles most bounces, and lots of other excellent stuff. It's mostly in procmail script, so it is highly configurable to the unique requirements of an individual list. It also includes a very functional archive server (users can even do egrep searches on archive files via email). I use it on a small list I run and it's great. If I'd have installed it on my large list I could have avoided many past problems on the list. I'd install it now, but my current site has decided to start charging for mailing lists and I don't think I can afford to run it there anymore. I'm looking at my options. Hmmm. Anyone know of "angel" site willing to host a high-volume, high-readership mailing list? I may put it on netcom, but I haven't yet determined if they'll allow SmartList (they do have majordomo, but I'd prefer SmartList). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 30 16:50:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id QAA27405; Sat, 30 Jul 1994 16:50:49 GMT Received: from eskimo.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940726) id JAA27399; Sat, 30 Jul 1994 09:50:40 -0700 Received: by eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA22247; Sat, 30 Jul 1994 09:54:20 -0700 Date: Sat, 30 Jul 1994 09:54:20 -0700 From: telical@eskimo.com (Robert Pearson) Message-Id: <199407301654.AA22247@eskimo.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Beginner's Questions Hi, I've been on this mailing list, sitting quietly in the background. Its not been a pressing issue, but I've finally got my address set up. My list is for those interested in computer-generated writing, for research and aesthetics......anyway, it turns out my netsite doesn't have any major mailing list software. Should I complain? It seems like I have to add names to the list by hand. Is there some kind of file out there on the net that can explain about doing this, advertising the list, etc.?