From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 1 18:01:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA12432; Fri, 1 Jul 1994 18:01:28 GMT Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA12426; Fri, 1 Jul 1994 11:01:18 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA29539; Fri, 1 Jul 94 19:39:23 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA14779; Fri, 1 Jul 94 19:37:06 +0200 Message-Id: <9407011737.AA14779@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 19:37:04 +0200 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: SmartList (& procmail) v3.03 have been released Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The mailinglist management package that used to be distributed together with procmail has now been split off in a separate package which has been called "SmartList". There have been numerous enhancements since v2.90 (which must have been roughly the version which was compared to the Majordomo and Listprocessor packages about a year ago). The packages can be picked up at (if the German Telecom permits, that is, because they are currently messing up the internet routing here every other day): ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.gz /pub/packages/procmail/SmartList.tar.gz Or, you can obtain them via the (SmartList :-) mail archive server by sending a mail to procmail-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de with the following (MIME format): Subject: archive get procmail*tar.gz SmartList*tar.gz or (uuencoded, non-MIME): Subject: archive get procmail*uue.* SmartList*uue.* --------- Summary of what SmartList provides: + The overseeable management of an arbitrary number of mailinglists + Convenient and simple creation of new mailinglists + Convenient and simple removal of existing mailinglists + Fully automated subscription/unsubscription/help-request processing (no operator intervention needed) + Enough intelligence to overcome the ignorance of some subscribers (will direct subscribe and unsubscribe requests away from the regular list and automatically onto the -request address) + No hardwired format for (un)subscribe requests (i.e. new subscribers need not be educated, unsubscribing users do not need to remember any particular syntax) + *Intelligent* autoremoval of addresses from the list that cause too many bounces + Submissions can be limited to people on the accept list (which could be the current list of subscribers) + The fully automated subscription mechanism allows for a reject list of unwanted subscribers and a general address screening mechanism which allows you to control exactly who is allowed to subscribe + Optional implicit subscription upon first submission to the list + MIME-compliant auto-digest-generation (configurable per list) + Joint management of several mailinglists possible + Customisation per mailinglist or mailinglist group possible (simply remove or create the desired hardlinks) + A listmaintainer can be assigned per list; miscellaneous requests that couldn't be handled by the list automatically are then forwarded to his mail address (instead of being accumulated in a file) + Allows for remote maintenance of any mailinglist by a listmaintainer + Integrated archiving service + Integrated diagnostic aid to give hints to the maintainer about possible problems + Moderated mailinglists with an arbitrary number of moderators + Automatically eliminates duplicate submissions + You can set up a mailinglist to function as a standalone mail archive server + Extended MIME support (autorecognition of well known file formats) + The archive server can send arbitrarily long (even binary) files in MIME-multipart mails -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). In this signature, the concluding three words `were left out'. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 5 15:25:53 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA20696; Tue, 5 Jul 1994 21:56:23 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA20689; Tue, 5 Jul 1994 14:56:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199407052156.OAA20689@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: list-managers Subject: New list manager for List-Managers Date: Tue, 05 Jul 1994 14:56:16 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch is taking over as manager of List-Managers. Michael has been a frequent contributor to List-Managers, and currently manages the Simpsons and Sinead O'Connor mailing lists. I'm completely overworked these days, and unable to give the list the attention it deserves. The list will remain here at GreatCircle.COM, and all administrative procedures and so forth will remain unchanged; it will simply be Michael dealing with bounces and so forth rather than me. All correspondence regarding the list should continue to be sent to Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM (for all routine requests) or List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM (for stuff that absolutely requires a human). I'm sure you'll join me in wishing Michael the best of luck. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 00:53:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA06389; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:01:54 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA06383; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:01:47 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24320 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:04:45 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA23750 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Wed, 6 Jul 1994 19:04:44 -0700 Message-Id: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Date: Wed, 06 Jul 94 19:04:44 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I use the standard list-request@site address for administrative requests. Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they join the list. I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request address): >Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 17:47:56 -0700 >Message-Id: <199407070047.RAA06372@pacific.pacific.net> >X-Sender: dejong@pacific.pacific.net >To: fatfree@hustle.rahul.net >From: dejong@pacific.pacific.net (Philip DeJong) >Subject: REMOVE > >I am losing my sense of humor with his nightmare of a group. I pulled > 108 messages out of my mailbox from the weekend. I have requested > remove now for the last 2 weeks. If I am not off this group by yesterday > I am seriously considering the following alternatives. > 1. Repost the three most disgusting stories I can find from >alt.sex.etc. 2. Repost the largest binary picture file I can find of a >suitable fat person. > 3. Change my email adress and sue. > > I understand from a previous posting that these removes are done by hand. > I have been patient, but this group has turned by mail box into a dump. > PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE > >Phil DeJong >dejong@pacific.net I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 01:18:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA06410; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:10:52 GMT Received: from SLUAVA.SLU.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA29864; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 07:57:08 -0700 Received: from SLUVCA.SLU.EDU by SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (PMDF V4.2-13 #5070) id <01HEDREY3BQI8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>; Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:01:40 CST Date: Wed, 06 Jul 1994 10:01:39 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Milles Subject: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01HEDREY3LDO8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO X-Envelope-to: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Feel free to reproduce or distribute as you wish. I appreciate any comments or suggestions. Jim Milles (listowner, NETTRAIN@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu) Head of Computer Services Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu ----------------------- DISCUSSION LISTS: MAIL SERVER COMMANDS Version 1.11 July 4, 1994 James Milles Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu 1. E-mail discussion lists constitute one of the most popular methods of group communication on the Internet. Discussion lists support group communication by providing, at minimum, two basic functions: (1) the ability to distribute a message to a group of people by sending it to a single, central address, and (2) the ability to quietly join and leave the list at any time. 1.1. In order to provide these separate functions, an e-mail discussion list typically has two addresses associated with it: (1) a "listname address," the address to which you send any messages that you intend to be read by the list subscribers; and (2) an "administrative address," the address to which you send any commands or requests that affect your subscription to the list. It's easy to remember this distinction by thinking of your local newspaper: the first address is somewhat analogous to sending a "letter to the editor," while the second is like sending a letter to the newspaper's subscription office. 1.2. With most discussion lists, the "administrative address" is a computer program that allows the subscriber to subscribe and unsubscribe automatically, without external intervention. There are at least five popular mail server programs used to manage Internet discussion lists: REVISED LISTSERV (also called BITNET LISTSERV), Unix ListProcessor (or Listproc), Mailbase, Mailserv, and Majordomo. The commands for subscribing and unsubscribing under most of these programs are the same; however, other useful commands differ greatly from one program to another, and some programs support features that others do not. 1.3. This document does not describe all the features supported by any of these programs, only those most commonly used. For more information on any of these programs, send a message containing only the word "help" to the appropriate mail server. Additional programs and commands will be added in future revisions of this document. 1.4. The latest version of this document is available by e-mail and by anonymous ftp: E-mail: Send a message containing only the line GET MAILSER CMD NETTRAIN F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu. FTP: Anonymous ftp to ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu cd /nettrain get mailser.cmd -- or -- anonymous ftp to sluaxa.slu.edu cd /pub/millesjg get mailser.cmd 2. When you subscribe to a list, you will typically receive a "welcome" message, describing the purpose of the list and telling you how to unsubscribe. Save this message! It tells you which program the discussion list is run under, and how to get further help. 2.1. Mail servers can be confusing. Many people use the term "listserv" generically, to refer to any list mail server program. To make things worse, the Unix ListProcessor (listproc) program was originally called "listserv," just like REVISED LISTSERV. Many listproc hosts are still configured with the name "listserv," and will accept commands addressed to "listserv@[host]" as well as to the correct name, "listproc@[host]." 2.2. Usually--but not always--you can find out which program a discussion list is run under by examining the message headers. For instance, listproc lists should include a line saying "Unix ListProcessor." However, the best practice is to save any "welcome" message you receive when you subscribe, and to note at that time which set of commands is applicable. 3. Remember to send all commands to the "administrative address"--[mailserver]@[host]--not to the "listname address". [Mailserver] is the program that maintains the list (either listproc, LISTSERV, mailbase, mailserv, or majordomo); [host] is the address of the host computer (for example, ucdavis.edu or cleo.murdoch.edu.au). 3.1. Be sure to leave the Subject: line blank, and to delete any signature file if your mailer allows you to do so. 3.2. Always include the name of the list in the message to [mailserver]@[host]. Most mailserver sites maintain many different discussion lists, and it is essential that you tell the mail server which list you are talking about. 3.3. For instance, to join the discussion list law-lib@ucdavis.edu, send an e-mail message containing only the command SUBSCRIBE LAW-LIB John Doe to listproc@ucdavis.edu. The other examples used below are: INT-LAW@UMINN1.BITNET (REVISED LISTSERV), law-europe@mailbase.ac.uk (Mailbase), envirolaw@oregon.uoregon.edu (Mailserv),and elaw-j@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Majordomo). ---------------------------------------------------------------- Join a list: Listproc: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE LAW-LIB John Doe) LISTSERV: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE INT-LAW John Doe) Mailbase: JOIN [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., JOIN LAW-EUROPE John Doe) Mailserv: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ENVIROLAW John Doe) Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname] (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ELAW-J) Leave a list: Listproc: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] LISTSERV: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Mailbase: LEAVE [listname] Mailserv: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Receive the list in digest format (multiple messages compiled into a single mailing, usually daily or weekly): Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL DIGEST LISTSERV: SET [listname] DIGEST Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname]-DIGEST (in the same message, unsubscribe from the undigested version:) UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] Cancel digest format; receive the list as separate mailings: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] MAIL Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname]-DIGEST (in the same message, subscribe to the undigested version:) SUBSCRIBE [listname] Suspend mail temporarily (without unsubscribing): Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL POSTPONE LISTSERV: SET [listname] NOMAIL Mailbase: SUSPEND MAIL [listname] Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Resume receipt of messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK -- or -- SET [listname] MAIL DIGEST LISTSERV: SET [listname] MAIL -- or -- SET [listname] DIGEST Mailbase: RESUME MAIL [listname] Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Receive copies of your own messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL ACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] REPRO (to simply receive an automatic acknowledgement that your message has been sent to the list, use:) SET [listname] ACK Mailbase: Standard feature; you always receive your own messages. Mailserv: Same as mailbase. Majordomo: Same as mailbase. Do not receive copies of your own messages: Listproc: SET [listname] MAIL NOACK LISTSERV: SET [listname] NOREPRO Mailbase: Not supported. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. Obtain a list of subscribers: Listproc: RECIPIENTS [listname] LISTSERV: REVIEW [listname] F=MAIL (can also be sorted by name or by country:) REVIEW [listname] BY NAME F=MAIL -- or -- REVIEW [listname] BY COUNTRY F=MAIL Mailbase: REVIEW [listname] Mailserv: SEND/LIST [listname] Majordomo: WHO [listname] Obtain a list of archive files: Listproc: INDEX [listname] LISTSERV: INDEX [listname] Mailbase: INDEX [listname] Mailserv: INDEX [listname] Majordomo: INDEX [listname] Retrieve an archive file: Listproc: GET [listname] [filename] (e.g., GET LAW-LIB feb94) LISTSERV: GET [filename] [filetype] [listname] F=MAIL (e.g., GET INT-LAW LOG9406 INT-LAW F=MAIL) Mailbase: SEND [listname] [filename] (e.g., SEND LAW-EUROPE 05-1994) Mailserv: SEND [filename] (e.g., GET ENVIROLAW smith.txt) Majordomo: GET [listname] [filename] (e.g., GET ELAW-J BOYLE.TXT) Search the archives for keywords (where available--some lists do not keep archives): Listproc: SEARCH [listname] "[keywords]" Boolean searches are possible using the symbols "&" (and), "|" (or), and "~" (not). For example, to search for "mead" or "mdc" in law-lib, use the command SEARCH LAW-LIB "mead | mdc" LISTSERV: LISTSERV uses a sophisticated and powerful search engine that does lots of neat things like finding "sounds like" matches; however, it uses a difficult, batch-coded search language to construct queries. I find it useful to keep a "template" file in my Internet account, and then edit the file as appropriate when I need to do a search. Here's the search file: // JOB Echo=No Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search nafta in int-law since 93/6/1 Index /* To run a search, send this file in an e-mail message to LISTSERV@[host]. The Search line can be modified as needed. The date is optional; Boolean combinations, nesting with parentheses, and a great number of other capabilities are supported. For a full description of LISTSERV search functions, send the command GET LISTDB MEMO F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UMINN1.BITNET. Once you've received a list of messages matching your query, send another message to LISTSERV@[host] to retrieve the specific messages you want: // JOB Echo=No Database Search DD=Rules //Rules DD * Search nafta in int-law since 93/6/1 Print all of 636 637 640 /* Mailbase: Archives of Mailbase lists are searchable through the Mailbase Gopher (gopher mailbase.ac.uk). Mailbase does not support batch searching by e-mail request. Mailserv: Not supported. Majordomo: Not supported. ----------------------------------------------------------------- James Milles Voice: (314) 658-2759 Head of Computer Services FAX: (314) 658-2966 Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu 3700 Lindell Blvd. St. Louis, MO 63108 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 03:56:00 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA09380; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:38:20 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA09374; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:38:07 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:48 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:46 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:46 +0200 Message-Id: <199407070940.1954.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: MILLESJG@sluvca.slu.edu CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Jim Milles's message of Wed, 06 Jul 1994 10:01:39 -0600 (CST) <01HEDREY3LDO8WXNGZ@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One thing missing is how to specify your mail address with each of these systems. Am I wrong, or is it only Majordomo which supports this (IMO, of course) _essential_ feature? I have to resort to faking mail all too often. Also, I think you should explain the role of request addresses! They are not mentioned at all, and I think that there are at least as many lists with a separate request address as there is LISTPROC and whatever. Kjetil T. PS. Fix your mail software so that it sends mail to the correct address. The local part of the address should _not_ be tampered with. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 04:05:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id JAA09397; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:44:11 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA09391; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 02:44:01 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:24 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:22 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:46:22 +0200 Message-Id: <199407070946.2023.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: Michelle Dick's message of Wed, 06 Jul 94 19:04:44 -0700 <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Michelle Dick: | I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's | address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? | I have never received a threat like that, but I would follow my standard procedure for mis-directed requests first, and hope he would follow its direction before the "deadline". I probably would have removed him just in time otherwise. Here's my form letter: --------------- In order to unsubscribe, you need to send the message to ********-request@ifi.uio.no. It will reach me there. I'm not honouring your request, although it would be just as easy for me to do so, in the hope that you will learn from this, and never mistake the mailing list address from the request address again. --------------- (my lists aren't so volumnious that I can't keep an eye on them) Quite a few are peeved by this letter, but hopefully it helps them think twice about correct procedure on leaving their next list. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 05:36:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10617; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:18:59 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10611; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:18:47 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA29568; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:20:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071220.IAA29568@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:20:51 EDT In-Reply-To: Jim Milles "Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands" (Jul 6, 10:01am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Jim Milles Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Feel free to reproduce or distribute as you wish. I appreciate any > comments or suggestions. Very write-up. Comment below. > 2.1. Mail servers can be confusing. Many people use the > term "listserv" generically, to refer to any list mail > server program. To make things worse, the Unix > ListProcessor (listproc) program was originally called > "listserv," just like REVISED LISTSERV. Many listproc hosts > are still configured with the name "listserv," and will > accept commands addressed to "listserv@[host]" as well as to > the correct name, "listproc@[host]." This, and the next paragraph imply that it is in some way "correct" to use the name of the mailing list manager (MLM) as the address to send to. In fact, it's just a common convention, by no means universal. To me it's an example of data-coupling that will come back to bite you eventually. --Mike From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:29:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA11332; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:19:25 GMT Received: from ifi.uio.no by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA11325; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 06:19:16 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:14 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:12 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:22:12 +0200 Message-Id: <199407071322.4378.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: Michael H. Morse's message of Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 EDT <199407071236.IAA29594@z.nsf.gov> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Michael Morse: | Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead | of going to the return desk, you went to the cashier that sold you | the stuff. The person there tells you, "I'm sorry, you went to the | wrong desk. You have to go to the right desk. Yes, I could just as | easily accept your return here, and save you some trouble, but then | you'll never learn the correct way to return things to this store." | Would you still shop there? Would you have a nice feeling about that | person? Would you appreciate being educated? | Poor analogy. Make it something like this: Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead of going to the return desk, you ask everyone in the store if they can help you. Eventually, you come across one of the employees who's off duty, and who tells you: "I could follow you over to the returns desk and help you, but I'd rather you walked over there yourself and asked whoever's standing there." _I_ would feel silly for bothering so many people needlessly. However, I have added a paragraph to my text, perhaps making it clearer why I do this. ----- > You have just sent your request to hundreds of people worldwide > instead of using the proper channel. > > In order to unsubscribe, you need to send the message to > ********-request@ifi.uio.no. It will reach me there. I'm not > honouring your request, although it would be just as easy for me to do > so, in the hope that you will learn from this, and never mistake the > mailing list address from the request address again. ----- Kjetil T. PS. Of course, there may be something subtle in my way of expression which puts off native speakers. Suggestions for improvements in personal mail, please. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:35:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10764; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:27:52 GMT Received: from SUVM.SYR.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10750; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:27:35 -0700 Received: from spider.syr.edu by SUVM.SYR.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 07 Jul 94 08:31:06 LCL Received: by spider.syr.edu (5.0/Spike-2.0) id AA11782; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:32:23 +0500 Message-Id: <9407071232.AA11782@spider.syr.edu> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, jmwobus@mailbox.syr.edu Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jul 1994 19:04:44 PDT." <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 08:32:21 -0400 From: "John M. Wobus" content-length: 897 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net>you write: >I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a >member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request >address): ... My advice is: (1) Take the person off the list. (2) Send a reminder to the list as to how to get off. Unfortunately, the person who can't deal with all the mail and is desperate to get off may well miss it, but it can't hurt. (3) Send the person a calm, reasoned message about what is wrong with what they did and what they should have done. Write it and wait a day or two before posting it. Remove any trace of animosity no matter how much they deserve it: this is business, not pleasure. (4) Forward their original message to their postmaster and network provider as well as cc your reply. Forward/cc any followups. John Wobus Syracuse University From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 06:56:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA10877; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:33:08 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA10869; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:32:59 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA29594; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071236.IAA29594@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:36:39 EDT In-Reply-To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme "Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members" (Jul 7, 11:46am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme , List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Quite a few are peeved by this letter, And rightly so. > but hopefully it helps them > think twice about correct procedure on leaving their next list. Actually, it mostly allows you to look down on them. In the words of Kris Kristofferson, "Everybody needs somebody they can look down on, If you can't find nobody else, than he'p yourself to me." Suppose you went to a department store to return something. Instead of going to the return desk, you went to the cashier that sold you the stuff. The person there tells you, "I'm sorry, you went to the wrong desk. You have to go to the right desk. Yes, I could just as easily accept your return here, and save you some trouble, but then you'll never learn the correct way to return things to this store." Would you still shop there? Would you have a nice feeling about that person? Would you appreciate being educated? OK, so maybe you don't care about what people think of you. The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will teach them. --Mike From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:05:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA10213; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:55:16 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA10207; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 04:55:05 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA00534; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:57:59 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA07348; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:57:57 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12921; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:54:36 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:48:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I > use the standard list-request@site address for administrative > requests. > Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the > traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use > of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting > address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they > join the list. > I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a ^^^^^^ strong word > member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request > address): > message - plea - to be removed deleted. > > I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. > But what do you do when you receive threats like this? The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, nothing more. Your list is a service. I've seen a few complaints from people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow the procedure. Absurd! The frustration of your customer suggests that the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: adapt to the customer. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:16:05 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA11129; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:59:24 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA11117; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 05:59:02 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA16276 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 09:01:33 -0400 Message-Id: <199407071301.AA16276@cs.umb.edu> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jul 1994 19:04:44 PDT." <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 09:01:32 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I send them a copy of the instructions for being removed from the list. In the case you mentioned, above I would tell them that they can not not be removed from the list unless they use the proper list removal directions. At the end of the instructions, add a blurb that says: It is possible that you can't get email to the proper address, just in case that may be a problem, I have forwarded this message to your sites adminstrative and technical contacts, who should be able to diagnose the problem. (You don't mention that the only problem is the one between the senders ears). Then CC the sites technical/administrative liason as listed in whois. Of course you do include the orignal message verbatim just as if you were responding to it. In message <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net>, Michelle Dick writes: > >I run a high-volume list with 1700+ and about 50K a day in volume. I >use the standard list-request@site address for administrative >requests. > >Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the >traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use >of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting >address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they >join the list. > >I recently received the following threat (posted to the list) from a >member of my list (who has never sent a remove request to the request >address): > >>Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 17:47:56 -0700 >>Message-Id: <199407070047.RAA06372@pacific.pacific.net> >>X-Sender: dejong@pacific.pacific.net >>To: fatfree@hustle.rahul.net >>From: dejong@pacific.pacific.net (Philip DeJong) >>Subject: REMOVE >> >>I am losing my sense of humor with his nightmare of a group. I pulled > >> 108 messages out of my mailbox from the weekend. I have requested > >> remove now for the last 2 weeks. If I am not off this group by yesterday >> I am seriously considering the following alternatives. >> 1. Repost the three most disgusting stories I can find from >>alt.sex.etc. 2. Repost the largest binary picture file I can find of a > >>suitable fat person. >> 3. Change my email adress and sue. >> >> I understand from a previous posting that these removes are done by hand. > >> I have been patient, but this group has turned by mail box into a dump. > >> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE > >> >>Phil DeJong >>dejong@pacific.net > >I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's address. >But what do you do when you receive threats like this? > >-- >Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA > Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:46:41 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA12137; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:43:01 GMT Received: from yukon.cren.org by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA12131; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:42:54 -0700 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with SMTP id <79972(6)>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:49 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 05:46:22 EDT." <199407070946.2023.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:45:41 -0400 From: Marco Hernandez Message-Id: <94Jul7.104549edt.79972(6)@yukon.cren.org> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > +--- Michelle Dick: > | I did break my long-standing policy and remove this person's > | address. But what do you do when you receive threats like this? > | > > I have never received a threat like that, but I would follow my > standard procedure for mis-directed requests first, and hope he would > follow its direction before the "deadline". I probably would have > removed him just in time otherwise. > I have received a threat which was similar (actually on of my list owners did) and before I knew it, my system was being bomarded. The guy set up a loop via the elm filter program ... This was because he could not unsub from a listproc list (He never bothered to read the welcome message or contact the owner or get the on line help ??? You figure). I eventually had to set up zmailer to refuse all mail from the host, so he probably got all the bounced when his mailer timed out ... But I think there is little you can do. Put out an FAQ to the lists twice per month ... (I try and stress this to the list owners) ... There is no protection against ignorant people ... /marco From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 07:55:18 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA11993; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:33:28 GMT Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id HAA11985; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:33:15 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA15778; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:36:11 -0400 Received: by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA27377; Wed, 6 Jul 94 10:17:25 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 1994 10:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Cc: artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 07:48:16 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Amoskeag X-Last-Cd: Santana, "Sacred Fire" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1192 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, >nothing more. Your list is a service. I've seen a few complaints from >people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost >as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow >the procedure. Absurd! The frustration of your customer suggests that >the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for >people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: >adapt to the customer. The members of the mailing lists that I run will become my "customers" when they begin to pay me a fee for the "service" that I am providing to them. Until that happens, the mailing lists will be run in any fashion I choose; those who do not care for what they receive are always free to unsubscribe and/or seek other mailing lists and/or start their own. The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, this difficulty will pass. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 08:16:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA12374; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:13:30 GMT Received: from athens.dis.anl.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id IAA12368; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 08:13:10 -0700 Received: from athens.dis.anl.gov (bordeaux.dis.anl.gov [146.137.176.15]) by athens.dis.anl.gov (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA01306; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:15:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> To: Grayson Walker cc: Michelle Dick , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 07:48:16 CDT." Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 10:15:46 -0500 From: William LeFebvre Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: > Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 07:48:16 CDT > From: Grayson Walker > To: Michelle Dick > Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, > nothing more. Your list is a service. My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to take since I am a volunteer for this task. This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they would and should reasonably expect to be catered to, pampered, and be treated as if "the customer is always right". But that's NOT what we have here. We have volunteers donating time, resources, and knowledge to provide an information resource. That is no longer a seller/customer relationship. It is now more along the lines of a cooperative collection of participants. > I've seen a few complaints from > people whose customers don't follow the "correct" procedure -- almost > as if there is an intent to "punish" the customer for failing to follow > the procedure. Absurd! Only if you view the mailing list users as customers have paid for a service. They have paid nothing for it, and the person running the show has received nothing for his efforts. It is not all that absurd when the volunteer is trying to do everything he can to keep the monster of a list from consuming all his spare time (some of us DO have real lives, you know). So let's look at it from the other end. You'd think that list users would have some sympathy for those of us who are donating a substantial portion of our time to providing them with an information source, and would be willing to do what they can to help us out, by following the simple guidelines we set forth. These aren't arbitrary guidelines: they exist to make things a little easier for us. Instead all we get from some of these folks is complaints about things not working right, complaints about us not acting on our requests within finve minutes after they sent it, complaints about the archive site, or the absence of an archive site, or about not getting their mail, or about getting too much mail, or about people abusing the list, or about people sending out remove requests to the list, etc, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I guess I've been doing this for too long..... > The frustration of your customer suggests that > the procedure is flawed. I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for > people to send administrative requests to the entire lists. The solution: > adapt to the customer. But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent the message, or the hundreds whining about it? If the former, then we quietly process the request and everyone gets used to the idea that that's how administrative requests are handled, and more "customers" are inconvenienced by people sending administrative mail to the entire list. If the latter, then we do something similar to the very thing you are objecting to. Either way we make some of our "customers" unhappy. So NOW what do you suggest? William LeFebvre Decision and Information Sciences Argonne National Laboratory lefebvre@dis.anl.gov From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 10:20:11 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA13896; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:00:39 GMT Received: from suntan.Tandem.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id KAA13880; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 10:00:14 -0700 Received: from devserver.dsg.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA29796; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:49 PDT Received: from work.dsg.tandem.com by devserver.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6main.931028) id AA15889; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:48 PDT Received: by work.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.931028) id AA05721; Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:42 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 10:01:42 PDT From: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9407071701.AA05721@work.dsg.tandem.com> To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I am on MANY lists, and it is very common for people to send administrative >requests to the entire lists. The solution: adapt to the customer. Sorry, wrong answer. Thank you for playing. As the person who wrote the first pass at the sub/unsub filter Brent has in Majordomo, I rather disagree. Why? Well, because sometimes the list administrator is a kind volunteer who does nothing but run the list. He/she does not read the list, she/he has no interest whatsoever in the list. This is not a hypothetical case; there's a fellow up in Canada (nstn.ca?) that hosts lists at his site because he's got the software, and when you've got X number of lists, what's one more? I can pretty well guarantee you that he's not reading all of the lists he hosts. Shoot, with some software (e.g. BITNET LISTSERV) the list can be almost entirely automated, no human intervention whatsoever. The thing is, you can yell, scream, shout, whatever, at the list, and no-one will be able to help you. -- Scott Hazen Mueller scott@zorch.sf-bay.org From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 11:58:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA15668; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:37:51 GMT Received: from pooh.ucsf.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA15656; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:37:37 -0700 Received: from localhost by pooh.ucsf.edu (8.6.4/GSC4.24) id LAA29542; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199407071840.LAA29542@pooh.ucsf.edu> Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: artemis@rahul.net (Michelle Dick) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 11:40:34 -0800 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407070204.AA23750@bolero.rahul.net> from "Michelle Dick" at Jul 6, 94 07:04:44 pm From: troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu (John M. Troyer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1691 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Because of the volume, the fact that I don't always read all the > traffic on the list, and because I don't wish to condone improper use > of the posting address, I do not process requests sent to the posting > address. All new members are sent explicit instructions when they > join the list. This is a human problem and can only be taken so far with software fixes and filters. Since you don't read the list, how about asking for volunteers who do read your list to be 'deputized' as list.cops? These junior G-men could take several form letters (possibly just the welcome instructions or FAQ written by you) and send them out to people who are 'having difficulties.' I think this would be very appropriate for a high-volume list: there's no reason to do it all yourself. Some problems to avoid: have only one or two 'deputies', since you want to avoid FAQ-bombing the person who may already be overloaded with mail from the list the letters they send should explicitly state who's in charge (you) so that the helpers don't get asked to unsubscribe, retrieve files, etc. if the helpers shouldn't act like moderators and discuss content and appropriateness of letters unless they want to be treated like moderators. you probably want to avoid too much formality (rotating shifts, who's 'on call,' etc.), since you're trying to save yourself work, not make more of it. caveat: I haven't ever actually tried this, so I don't know if it would work. But these kinds of volunteers naturally arise in many lists and newsgroups (I know I have sent out FAQs to people), and I don't see why formally asking someone to do it would be any different. john troyer@cgl.ucsf.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 12:18:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA16237; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:05:53 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA16229; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:05:41 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA20164; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:19 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27882; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:17 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:08:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: Grayson Walker , artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > The members of the mailing lists that I run will become my "customers" > when they begin to pay me a fee for the "service" that I am providing > to them. Until that happens, the mailing lists will be run in any > fashion I choose; those who do not care for what they receive are always > free to unsubscribe and/or seek other mailing lists and/or start their own. > I have to agree with this one. I try to give list members what they want, but I'm putting in the time, effort (and money!) - they are privileged guests. It does spoil the party when guests get out of hand! -Sharon From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 12:58:16 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA16694; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:46:57 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA16688; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 12:46:38 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA14065; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:49:36 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA09676; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:49:35 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15416; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:46:52 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: William LeFebvre Cc: Grayson Walker , Michelle Dick , list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, > > nothing more. Your list is a service. > > My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I > receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places > these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary > concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing > my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to > take since I am a volunteer for this task. I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. > This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these > folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. > But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other > "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent > the message, or the hundreds whining about it? If the former, then we > quietly process the request and everyone gets used to the idea that > that's how administrative requests are handled, and more "customers" > are inconvenienced by people sending administrative mail to the entire > list. If the latter, then we do something similar to the very thing > you are objecting to. Either way we make some of our "customers" > unhappy. So NOW what do you suggest? Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. Until the processes deal with all the needs of the service providers and their consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Just because we cannot solve the problem given today's software or technology in no way prevents us from recognizing the flaws in the processes. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:23:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17194; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:23:35 GMT Received: from saimiri.primate.wisc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17188; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:23:14 -0700 Received: by saimiri.primate.wisc.edu; id PAA22644; 8.6.8.1/41.8; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:26:25 -0500 From: Software Development Message-Id: <199407072026.PAA22644@saimiri.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 03:32:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1730 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the > Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. They may be customers, and they may be paying, but this paragraph cuts no ice with me, and I suspect with many of use who run lists for nothing. I sympathize with subscribers who have to pay per-message when they get too many messages, but not overly much. Your bringing "paying customer" into the equation has little meaning for me. They're paying *someone else* to get the messages. Someone *else* is making money off my volunteer efforts, and you're expecting me to shoulder the burden of providing paid-level support? Sorry. I'm not advocating telling subscribers to take a hike, but they're accessing a service which is offered by me for free. If they have to pay someone else to get it, that doesn't obligate me to provide the level of support that would come were I billing them for access. > I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without > compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the > prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. Again, they're not paying me. Someone else is issuing the bill. And taking in the money. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:30:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17337; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:30:30 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17330; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:30:12 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA02758; Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:20:04 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06433; Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:23:10 EDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 16:23:10 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407072023.AA06433@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible >in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots >of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Agreed - but they aren't my customers. They may be paying someone else to get into the same general location as my service, but they are NOT my paying customers. There is no distinction in my mind between compuserve.com, aol.com, flamtap.lex.ky.us, saarbrucken.de, and ncsc.mil; they're all the same thing to my list. >We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain >courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that >some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. Agreed - the carrot wins more often than the stick. However, one must yet wield both, no? >> But that one "customer" has just ticked off thousands of other >> "customers". So which "customer" do we adapt to? The one who sent >> the message, or the hundreds whining about it? > >Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. I don't know of too many services which cater to every whim/need of every customer with any success *or* longevity. "Adapting" to 5000 subscribers gives me nightmares - this is a hobby/contribution for me, not a business. >Until the processes deal with all the needs of the service providers >and their consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Hmm...it seems to me that, if the processes ever managed to "deal with" all the needs of the providers and customers, there would be no need for new processes. >Just because >we cannot solve the problem given today's software or technology in >no way prevents us from recognizing the flaws in the processes. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- ment; why should we avoid it here? --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 13:38:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17227; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:24:30 GMT Received: from enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17211; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:24:13 -0700 Received: by enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca id <607880>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:27:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists From: "C. Harald Koch" To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:27:09 -0400 Cc: lefebvre@athens.dis.anl.gov, gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us, artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 7, 94 03:32:08 pm Phone: +1 416 978 0992 Organization: UTCC Network & Operations Services, External Network Fac. Mgmt. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1835 Message-Id: <94Jul7.162711edt.607880@enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the > Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. I'm sorry, I still think you're wrong. Someone else suggested a 'guest' metaphor; this is perfect, as far as I'm concerned. The people you are referring to are paying a network access provider for network access. They are *not* paying *me* for my mailing list. You are thinking along the lines of monolithic information service providers like Compu$erve; this model does not hold for the Internet. I don't have the right to abuse your hospitality just because I paid tolls on the roads I used to drive to your house; similarly, I don't have the right to abuse you or your mailing list just because I'm paying a network service provider for access. There *are* organisations out there that run 'commercial' information services over the Internet; you subscribe to their publication, and they use the Internet to deliver it to you. An excellent example of this is ClariNet, which delivers news-wire information over NetNews. *They* have customers; I do not. -- C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "It is fruitless to attempt to indoctrinate University of Toronto | a super-annuated canine with innovative External Networking Fac. Mgmt. | maneuvers." chk@utcc.utoronto.ca | -Dr. SNMP, The Simple Times, v2n3 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:39:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17468; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:39:44 GMT Received: from hustle.rahul.net by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17461; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:39:36 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by hustle.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17029 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:42:31 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09575 (5.67a8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:42:29 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072042.AA09575@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Date: Thu, 07 Jul 94 13:42:29 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Resolution: I removed the poster from the list, had his address blocked from posting to the list, sent a copy of the email-bomb threat to his postmaster and asked that they inform the user of proper email behavior. The postmaster wrote back, apologizing for the user and letting me know that he had so advised the user. Note that I was not complaining about errant add/drop requests in my initial letter, but rather the threat to send large binaries to my large list (which is a simple reflector at this time). Given the damage potential, I have no choice but to take all threats seriously. Proper subscription info is sent in the new-subscriber letter as well as posted every other week or so. I also happen to know that several of my subscribers do email errant requests with the proper information. I, myself, do not read all the posted messages on the list (it's an extremely high-volume list), so cannot individually email responses to errant requests. I spend 10-15 hours per week maintaining the list and the associated recipe archive. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 13:45:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA16967; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:10:21 GMT Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA16946; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:09:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072009.NAA16946@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 13:09:48 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson Walker writes: # > > The members of the list are YOUR customers. Customers expect service, # > > nothing more. Your list is a service. # > # > My list is a service which is provided free of charge and for which I # > receive absolutely zero renumeration. I am a volunteer. This places # > these so-called "customers" in a very different category. My primary # > concern is providing an adequate forum for discussion while minimizing # > my time commitment. This is, I believe, a very reasonable stand to # > take since I am a volunteer for this task. # # I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible # in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots # of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them # pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- # they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the # Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive # financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one # more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. Fine, they're somebody's customers, but they're not _my_ customers. I didn't solicit their "business". If they want "better service", they can damn well pay _me_ for it; what they pay somebody else (their service provider) is irrelevant. # We're also talking about an orientation towards service, and, yes plain # courtesy. I know you've seen the (fortunately) occasional arrogance that # some self-styled experts dump upon the neophyte. This must end. Talk about arrogance... # > This "customer" expectation you have described is only valid if these # > folks were indeed paying a list maintainer for the service. Then they # # I disagree. If they paying somebody for a service you provide without # compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless of the # prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. OK, fine, I've just decided that Great Circle Associates is going to charge $10/year for each subscription to List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, payable in advance by credit card or check in U.S. dollars drawn on a U.S. bank. For service problems, you can call our 900 number, and be billed at $1/minute directly to your phone bill. Non-US customers are just out of luck when it comes to service calls, because we can't figure out how an easy way to bill them for it. Are you telling me that would be an _improvement_? # Simple. To which customer do we adapt? All of them. Until the # processes deal with all the needs of the service providers and their # consumer/customer, the processes are flawed. Just because we cannot solve # the problem given today's software or technology in no way prevents us # from recognizing the flaws in the processes. Tell you what... You run your lists your way, and we'll run ours our way. Have a good time; thanks for sharing. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 20:46:34 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA17583; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 20:46:34 GMT Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA17576; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:46:25 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id NAA10230; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:49:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 13:49:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199407072049.NAA10230@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists References: <199407071515.KAA01306@athens.dis.anl.gov> X-Attribution: JRhine Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson> If they paying somebody for a service you provide without Grayson> compensation, I think you're undervaluing your service. Regardless Grayson> of the prices, there is a service-customer relationship here. Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." -- Thomas Paine From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:12:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA17862; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:12:17 GMT Received: from ftp.std.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA17855; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:12:04 -0700 Received: from world.std.com by ftp.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29994; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:15:07 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02352; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:13:18 -0400 Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 17:13:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Software Development Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072026.PAA22644@saimiri.primate.wisc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I'm not advocating telling subscribers to take a hike, but they're > accessing a service which is offered by me for free. If they have to > pay someone else to get it, that doesn't obligate me to provide the > level of support that would come were I billing them for access. Same here. When they sign up for lists, they are requesting an extra service - one I provide. And since I'm the one paying to have the list on a commercial provider - the biggest cost is to me - by far. -Sharon From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:56:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA18594; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:56:30 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA18324; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 14:39:00 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07581; Thu, 7 Jul 94 17:41:29 EDT Message-Id: <9407072141.AA07581@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 7 Jul 1994 17:03 EDT Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in >their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in >learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will >teach them. That pretty much sums it up. I have a standard message that's firm but not insulting (I don't think) but makes it quite clear that they have to resend the request. Based on my experiences, I would recommend the following: 1. Do not ignore the request as it will generate repeat requests. At this point, you should be considering the other members of the list rather than trying to punish the errant one. I send a "canned" message that tells them the right way to do it, and indicates that they need to resend the message. However, I delete them anyway at my next deletion interval (my list is manually administered) even if they don't. 2. Post periodic reminders. Since this can be construed as noise too, I try to piggy-back this with other administrative messages or my own contributions to the list. But then it must be the very first paragraph, with suitable emphasis. A good time to do it is just after someone posts to the wrong address. I find that for some reason, these unsubscription requests to the whole list seem to cluster together. Perhaps people see the one message and say, "Oh, so *that's* how one unsubscribes to the list." 3. I liked to suggestion someone had earlier about capitalizing just the -REQUEST part of the address; I've used it since and found it helps. 4. I'd like to see a general capability in mailing list servers like majordomo that allows a "Message of the Day" to be prepended and/or appended to the *body* of messages sent to the list. However, there should also be a parameter so that only every N'th message contains this message--I would set N to about 10 (which would be once every 2 days for my list), and put a 1- or 2-line message at the front. A more general capability that allowed you to rotate through a small set of messages would be nice too. 5. Despite all this, you will STILL get messages sent to the whole list. You have to accept that that's part of what you signed up for when you decided to be the list owner. The best you can do is to keep the number small. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 15:18:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA18938; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:12:56 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA18930; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:12:40 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA18675; Thu, 7 Jul 94 18:15:12 EDT Message-Id: <9407072215.AA18675@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 7 Jul 1994 18:00 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'm sorry, I still think you're wrong. Someone else suggested a 'guest' >metaphor; this is perfect, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, this is a good metaphor, especially since it permits both viewpoints. And it emphasizes the responsibilities of both parties, guests and host. It's your party [usually open house], so *you* get to decide what kind of a host you want to be. You can take the position that *you're* paying for the food and *you're* opening up your house to strangers, and *you've* got to deal with cleaning up; so you are certainly entitled to be strict and throw out on his ear the first guest who put a moist glass down without a coaster. Or you can be the gracious host who say, "Oh, that was just an ugly trinket anyway," when a guest knocks over and breaks your Ming Dynasty vase, and generally treat all your guests like royalty. Or something in betweeen. The point is: it's your list, so you can make it the way you want. But just as with your real-life guests, you will have the reputation of being the type of host that you are. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 16:19:19 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA19459; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:35:43 GMT Received: from suntan.Tandem.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA19437; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:35:10 -0700 Received: from devserver.dsg.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA07155; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:41 PDT Received: from work.dsg.tandem.com by devserver.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6main.931028) id AA21535; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:41 PDT Received: by work.dsg.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.931028) id AA12778; Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:39 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Jul 94 15:37:39 PDT From: scott@dsg.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9407072237.AA12778@work.dsg.tandem.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Guest metaphor Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The point is: it's your list, so you can make it the way you want. >But just as with your real-life guests, you will have the reputation of >being the type of host that you are. Yah. But. If a guest pees in the sink, and then complains because there's no toilet paper nearby, I think I'm perfectly entitled to tell them to use the toilet, and NO I WON'T put toilet paper by the sink. \scott From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 23:21:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id XAA20589; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 23:21:26 GMT Received: from SLUAVA.SLU.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id QAA20582; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 16:21:14 -0700 Received: from SLUVCA.SLU.EDU by SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (PMDF V4.2-13 #5070) id <01HEFNIEIWPS8WY84V@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU>; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:26:40 CST Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 18:26:40 -0600 (CST) From: Jim Milles Subject: Re: Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01HEFNIEKILE8WY84V@SLUVCA.SLU.EDU> Organization: SAINT LOUIS UNIVERSITY St. Louis, MO X-Envelope-to: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thank you all who offered suggestions on the document I posted here yesterday. I have revised the document, "Discussion Lists: Mail Server Commands," to reflect many of your suggestions for improvement. Rather than repeat the entire document, here are the relevant additions: >1.4. This document also does not deal with discussion lists >to which one subscribes by sending a message to >"[listname]-request." There are a great many discussion >lists of this type; some are distribution lists maintained >manually by the listowner, while others use some form of >mailer software ranging from a simple script to a fairly >sophisticated mailing list program. Some require that >subscription requests by placed in the message text; others >require them to be included in the Subject: line. Because >of the variety of methods of maintaining these lists, it is >impossible to generalize about their command features. >However, as a rule, assume that any discussion list with an >administrative address of "[listname]-request" is maintained >manually by a human being. Accordingly, you should >subscribe by sending a friendly message in plain English to >"[listname]-request." If a program responds with >instructions for subscribing, follow the instructions. > Mailserv: SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname > (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ENVIROLAW John Doe) > (Optionally, include the e-mail address at > which you wish to receive list mail:) > SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname [address] > Majordomo: SUBSCRIBE [listname] > (e.g., SUBSCRIBE ELAW-J) > (Optionally, include the e-mail address at > which you wish to receive list mail:) > SUBSCRIBE [listname] Firstname Lastname [address] > Mailserv: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] > (UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] [address] > if you subscribed under a different e-mail > address.) > Majordomo: UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] > (UNSUBSCRIBE [listname] [address] > if you subscribed under a different e-mail > address.) >(Note: with those programs that support the digest option, >whether or not to offer the digest format is within the >discretion of the listowner; consequently not all lists offer >digests.) The entire document is available as follows: E-mail: Send a message containing only the line GET MAILSER CMD NETTRAIN F=MAIL to LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu. FTP: Anonymous ftp to ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu cd /nettrain get mailser.cmd -- or -- anonymous ftp to sluaxa.slu.edu cd /pub/millesjg get mailser.cmd Thanks again for your help. Jim Milles (listowner, NETTRAIN@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu) Head of Computer Services Saint Louis University Law Library millesjg@sluvca.slu.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 16:27:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA19547; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 22:42:17 GMT Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA19536; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 15:41:59 -0700 Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (pjg@localhost) by urth (8.6.8/8.6.4) with ESMTP id SAA06624; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 18:44:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199407072244.SAA06624@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: Grayson Walker cc: William LeFebvre , Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-reply-to: A message of "Thu, 07 Jul 1994 15:32:08 EDT." Date: Thu, 07 Jul 1994 18:44:35 -0400 From: Paul Graham Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk it seems you are misplacing responsibility. when i sign-up for a new service i must be prepared for difficulty. if i am disenchanted i take my patronage elsewhere. this is sadly the way the entire world works and it remains incumbent upon the patron to express dismay by spending time elsewhere. this, of course, presumes there are no contractual obligations on either party. -------- You write: I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them ------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu / uunet!acsu.buffalo.edu!pjg / pjg@ubvm (ripem public key at keyserver ripem.acsu.buffalo.edu) if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 19:38:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA23679; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 02:30:00 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA23673; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 19:29:51 -0700 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07176; Thu, 7 Jul 94 22:32:20 EDT Message-Id: <9407080232.AA07176@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 8 Jul 94 02:32:00 GMT From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Content-Type: text Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Grayson Walker suggests that some people are now paying "non-trivial fees . . . for access to our 'Net," and that these people are customers of the mailing list moderators. Several mailing list moderators have replied; let me add my voice as someone from the other side. (As a bystander, not a spokesperson!) Trivial or non-trivial fees, if someone's paying directly* for network access, he or she is a customer of the network service provider. Other customer/supplier relationships might come from that. But that doesn't make this user a paying customer of every service on the network! Users are customers of services they pay for. If they sign up for AOL, they're AOL customers. If they sign up for CIS, they're CIS customers. If they sign up for PLS, in my humble opinion, they're *our* customers. We're the ones they go to if they have problems. That's as it should be. We're the ones who best benefit from a good relationship with our customers, and with providing a great service. (Conversely, we're the ones the moderators will go to if a user does a Bad Thing. That doesn't fit into any customer/supplier relationship between a commercial service provider and a mailing list moderator. It's still probably as it should be.) (*As opposed to someone who pays indirectly for network service. A university student doesn't usually pay for time on a computer account (I'm sure there are exceptions). I have the privilege of being able to work unpaid overtime from the comfort of my own converted laundry room; who do I turn to?-) Paul S. R. Chisholm psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (PersonaLink is a service mark of AT&T) I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 7 21:58:14 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA01050; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:49:10 GMT Received: from hermes.acs.ryerson.ca by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA01040; Thu, 7 Jul 1994 21:48:57 -0700 Received: by hermes.acs.ryerson.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34873; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:50:50 -0400 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 00:50:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Ribeiro Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Grayson Walker Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Jul 1994, Grayson Walker wrote: > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them so let them bitch to the person they are paying, they can complain that they /need help/need documentation/blah blah... /P From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 11:51:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA05985; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:51:29 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA05976; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:51:21 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA08752; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:21 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11591; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:19 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24908; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:44:17 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Limited Perspective To: Rich Kulawiec Cc: Grayson Walker , artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9407061417.AA27377@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple > conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" > procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in > adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, > this difficulty will pass. Exactly. Given time and creative work, the problems will be solved by someone else. Thanks for your input. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 11:51:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA05990; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:51:35 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id EAA05978; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 04:51:23 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA08753; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:22 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11595; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:54:21 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24926; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:50:48 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:45:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Brent Chapman Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072009.NAA16946@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent: > # Commercial Real Estate list did last weekend. YOU and I may not receive > # financial compensation, but there are lots of paying customers. Just one > # more piece of a complex and flawed process. They are customers. Just because there is no direct financial exchange does not mean they are not your customer. The fact that you run a list mean you get something out of the effort -- whatever that may be -- that is your compensation. You say if you get money, you'll take a service orientation. You miss the point. The processes are complex and flawed. Just because you and I cannot solve the problems today (with our limited technology) does not mean the problems will not be solved in the future. Stick around long enough and you'll see the money you want. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 05:08:17 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06194; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:04:04 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06184; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:56 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09067; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:01 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11651; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:06:55 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24945; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:55:12 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:52:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists To: Wes Morgan Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407072023.AA06433@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number > of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain > procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- > ment; why should we avoid it here? Wes: What is the name of your company? How long have you been in business? How many customers do you have? What was your gross FY1993? How many employees do you have? From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:09:54 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06298; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:09:54 GMT Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06292; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:09:46 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA00755; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:12:50 -0400 Received: by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA02856; Thu, 7 Jul 94 07:54:00 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9407071154.AA02856@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Limited Perspective To: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 1994 07:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Cc: gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us, artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Grayson Walker" at Jul 8, 94 07:42:14 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: New River Gorge X-Last-Cd: Bluesiana Triangle X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1432 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> The presence of users who cannot manage to learn to use such simple >> conventions as the "-request" address does not indicate a "flawed" >> procedure; it's just a reflection of a difficulty encountered in >> adapating to network culture. Given time and consistent enforcement, >> this difficulty will pass. > >Exactly. Given time and creative work, the problems will be solved by >someone else. Thanks for your input. I'm trying to resist the temptation to barbecue you for distorting what I had to say; instead, I'll attempt to gently explain it to you: I happen to think that the "-request" convention is a simple, easy-to-use, easy-to-remember mechanism for handling out-of-band mailing list traffic. However, it's one of *many* conventions that newbies have to learn in order to function in network society, and it's entirely possible that ome of them will miss it, or get it wrong, or forget it. This does not make it a "flawed" procedure or even a *bad* procedure; this just makes it a procedure that some folks didn't catch on the first (second, third...) try. Rather than spend time searching for another convention, or expend a lot of effort trying to use technology to solve what is essentially a people problem, my position is that consistent use by everyone involved (i.e. mailing list moderators, such as you and me) will slowly educate the relevant population and the problem will gradually diminish. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 05:12:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06207; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:04:18 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06187; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:58 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09069; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:02 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11655; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:00 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24954; Fri, 8 Jul 94 07:58:24 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 07:55:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199407072049.NAA10230@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without > the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed > (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no > corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. Nonsense. If you offer the list to the public and accept subscription requests, you have agreed to offer and provide the service. If you would treat your customer differently if you received more or different compensation, that is an entirely different issue. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:30:22 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06585; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:30:22 GMT Received: from z.nsf.gov by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06575; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:30:11 -0700 Received: from localhost (mmorse@localhost) by z.nsf.gov (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA00777; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:33:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199407081233.IAA00777@z.nsf.gov> From: mmorse@nsf.gov (Michael H. Morse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:33:48 EDT In-Reply-To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) "Re: Limited Perspective" (Jul 7, 7:53am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.1.1 5/02/90) To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), gwalker@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Grayson Walker) Subject: Re: Limited Perspective Cc: artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Rather than spend time searching for another convention, > or expend a lot of effort trying to use technology to solve what is > essentially a people problem, my position is that consistent use > by everyone involved (i.e. mailing list moderators, such as you and me) > will slowly educate the relevant population and the problem will > gradually diminish. Anyway, I think you have it completely backwards. Successful companies are those that use technology to solve people problems. Compared to software and procedures, people are devilishly difficult to change. What's really most likely to happen is that Microsoft will come in with cool, bullet-proof, user-friendly software to do mailing lists and blow away this whole egotistic inconsistent mess we live with now. You cannot "educate" a population that is rapidly growing, that is rapidly becoming less computer literate, in a complex task that they do not do often enough to master. Your problem is certain to grow, not diminish. --Mike From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:40:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id MAA06740; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 12:40:29 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06732; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:40:20 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA05903; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:35:00 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00728; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:38:06 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:38:06 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407081238.AA00728@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Grayson Walker > >> In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number >> of "customers," I may require *all* customers to follow a certain >> procedure. I see little fault with this, in *any* business environ- >> ment; why should we avoid it here? > >Wes: > >What is the name of your company? How long have you been in >business? How many customers do you have? What was your gross FY1993? >How many employees do you have? I am not a company - that's the whole point! Analogies are flying around which compare listowners to businesses, providing services to customers. I merely used another analogy; if my intent was unclear, I apologize. Let me try again, in the absence of analogy: As a systems administrator, I support 2100+ users. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of them, I may require that *all* users follow certain procedures. I suspect that few of us would have significant heartburn with that statement. Now, let's try this one: As a listowner, I support 80 subscribers. In the interest of providing the best service to the largest number of them, I may require that *all* subscribers follow certain procedures. If the former statement is valid, why shouldn't the latter be valid as well? --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 13:20:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA07320; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:20:29 GMT Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id GAA07314; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 06:20:21 -0700 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA06128; Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:11:58 EDT Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01151; Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:15:05 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 09:15:05 EDT From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9407081315.AA01151@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Grayson Walker >> Certainly not. One cannot establish a customer-service relationship without >> the consent of both parties. The list-manager in question has not agreed >> (either formally, or informally) to any such relationship, thus no >> corresponding responsibilites of such an arrangement apply. > >Nonsense. If you offer the list to the public and accept subscription >requests, you have agreed to offer and provide the service. Indeed - on my terms. Not yours, not the client's - mine. That, in the absence of illegal activity on my part, should effectively end this particular thread. --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 17:37:23 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id RAA11275; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 17:37:23 GMT Received: from slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id FAA06188; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 05:03:59 -0700 Received: from ace.mlb.semi.harris.com by slopoke.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.0/SMI-4.0) id AA09073; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:03 EDT Received: from rtfm.UUCP by ace.mlb.semi.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1-jmb+uucp) id AA11659; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:07:01 EDT Received: by rtfm.mlb.fl.us (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24977; Fri, 8 Jul 94 08:03:19 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 08:00:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Grayson Walker Subject: Re: How to handle threats from disgruntled members To: "s.merchant" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9407072141.AA07581@ig1.att.att.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >The problem is that most people unsubscribe from lists very rarely in > >their lives. Also, they are not really all that interested in > >learning computer geek stuff. As a result, no amount of insults will > >teach them. > > That pretty much sums it up. I have a standard message that's firm > but not insulting (I don't think) but makes it quite clear that they > have to resend the request. Based on my experiences, I would recommend > the following: > > 1. Do not ignore the request as it will generate repeat requests. At > this point, you should be considering the other members of the list good discussion deleted for brevity. > 5. Despite all this, you will STILL get messages sent to the whole list. > You have to accept that that's part of what you signed up for when you > decided to be the list owner. The best you can do is to keep the > number small. This is exactly right. "You will STILL get messages sent to the whole list." Only when we have better processes and systems will this cease to be a problem. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 18:10:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA11829; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:10:38 GMT Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA11821; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:10:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.5) id OAA11477 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:10:45 -0400 Received: from rayssd.ssd.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Fri Jul 8 14:12:28 1994 Received: from fluke.ssd.ray.com (fluke.ssd.ray.com [138.125.192.34]) by rayssd.ssd.ray.com (8.6.5/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA12668 for ; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:10:41 -0400 Received: from localhost (dhb@localhost) by fluke.ssd.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.4) id OAA04862 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:11:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199407081811.OAA04862@fluke.ssd.ray.com> From: dhb@ssd.ray.com (David H. Brierley) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:11:11 -0400 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Jul 7, 15:32, Grayson Walker wrote: > > I recognize this as mildly polemic. Your position may have been defensible > in the Arpanet and early Internet days, but not today. Today we have lots > of mailing list members who pay for access to our 'Net. Some of them > pay non-trivial fees -- I've seen some who pay on a per message basis -- > they get excited when a list upchucks hundreds of null messages -- as the If people are paying someone for access then they should be able to get help with problems like this from the person/company they are paying the money to. I run a small site out of my house and I charge for access to that system. I fully expect that if a user of my system has a problem that they will call me about it and I make sure that all the users of my system are aware of this. If a service provider is not providing this type of support then why are you paying them money? If I have a problem with something that I purchased, my first action should be to call the place that I purchased it from, not to call the manufacturer. If you think of mailing list maintainers as manufacturers and service providers as stores then I think the support issue becomes a little clearer. -- David H. Brierley; Raytheon Company, Submarine Signal Directorate Work: dhb@ssd.ray.com Home: dave@galaxia.network23.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 12:09:29 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id SAA12512; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:57:00 GMT Received: from mailhost.phantom.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id LAA12505; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 11:56:51 -0700 Received: from mindvox (mindvox.phantom.com) by mailhost.phantom.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07386; Fri, 8 Jul 94 15:21:10 EDT Received: by mindvox (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00850; Fri, 8 Jul 94 14:59:29 EDT Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:59:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Cabinet Cat Subject: How to use Digestify? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all...I just took over the Generation X list, and it's VERY high-volume, to put it mildly. I'm in desperate need of a digest version, but my site doesn't offer automatic digests. So I found out about this short program called digestify. I ftp'ed it, but unfortunately I'm pretty unix-illiterate, and am not totally sure what to do now. Can anyone here provide me with a short crash-couse-post in running this program? Millions of Xers (well, 150 or so) need your help! Thanks, From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 20:09:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA13814; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 20:09:44 GMT Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id NAA13805; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:09:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 13:09:22 -0700 From: mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Received: from [192.33.12.182] (mac182.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu; Fri, 8 Jul 94 16:10 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service and Mailing Lists To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: X-Envelope-to: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to add my voice to those who say that users of lists are *not* our "customers". I manage 3 lists, two of which I started because there wasn't a place for the things *I* wanted to see and needed for my work. The other I took over for mostly altruistic reasons. So, in a sense, I created the (two) lists for essentially selfish reasons, although many have benefitted by them. They also primarily cater to academics, which might put them in a slightly different category. The third list, however, is different, and I can really tell. I figure that my service to the lists more than makes up for what I receive in return. But I'm not around to cater to folks who can't get their netiquette straight, or what address the listserv is at after I've told them 20 times. I tend to be a fairly gentle listowner, giving reminders now and again, and if people ignore them, it's easier to remove them from the list than deal with multiple "unsubscribes." It really is a thankless task, and I've gotten used to that, but I'm not going to be anyone's net.servant. Problem is, as the net grows and the number of newbies continually outstrip the number of experienced users, we will have to get used to annoyances, and sometimes assholes. Besides, the ones who play by the rules seem silent to us, only the ones who don't muck up the works. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. _____________________________ School of Natural Science | mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu | Hampshire College, ----------------------------- Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 Listowner: Feminists in Science and Technology (FIST@dawn.hampshire.edu) Minority Health Issues (MINHLTH@dawn.hampshire.edu) List Facilitator:Sistah-net (Sistah-request@hamp.hampshire.edu) Co-moderator, sci.med.aids =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 8 21:53:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA14910; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 21:53:31 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA14904; Fri, 8 Jul 1994 14:53:20 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA14714 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 8 Jul 1994 16:38:27 -0500 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA13791; 8 Jul 94 16:28:26 CDT (Fri) Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 8 Jul 94 16:28:23 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9407081628.AA13791@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David H. Brierley wrote: > If people are paying someone for access then they should be able to get help > with problems like this from the person/company they are paying the money to. > I run a small site out of my house and I charge for access to that system. I > fully expect that if a user of my system has a problem that they will call me > about it and I make sure that all the users of my system are aware of this. I can take this in a completely different direction. Both my lists have fairly controlled environments, and I don't allow exploders on them. One of the lists can get high volume and at times, people will send gifs and other large files through, so I set up a separate parallel list to handle the larger files. This is so if someone doesn't want/can't deal with large files, they don't have to receive them. Of the 120 on the list, about 95 are on this list (called maniacs). All this is clearly explained in the intro file I send out, which also gives the cap on the size of files I'll accept. Twice now I've received indignant letters from sysops of small systems who paid for their feeds, complaining of the large files I've been sending to a user of theirs subscribed to my list. Easily taken care of, I dropped the user in question off maniacs. Their attitudes were pretty much, "How dare you, don't you know you're not supposed to do this? etc, etc." The second one kept going on about his users who read the list even tho there was only one person from his system subscribed. I explained about maniacs to him and he replied that how could he know about it since I never told him (Him? He wasn't the one subscribed!) so I sent him the list rules to show him how it was all there in the file I sent to all new subscribers. Upon further exchange, I ascertained that out he had set up an exploder. By this time, I was so annoyed, I dropped his site off the list entirely. He wasn't very happy with this decision of mine, accusing me of discriminating against smaller systems. I told him I didn't appreciate how he had messed with my list without consulting with me (at no time during this discussion did I talk with the person who was actually subscribed!). But I guess what bothered me the most was his attitude towards my list. The reason he wanted it was so he could use it as a service for his paying users (I guess he couldn't afford much of a newsfeed). It's a pity I didn't get a chance to talk to the users who were actually reading to see what they thought. Too much lack of communicaton all around. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 9 21:52:10 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id VAA24992; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 21:52:10 GMT Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id OAA24986; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 14:51:58 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA22451 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 9 Jul 1994 16:47:46 -0500 Received: by taronga.taronga.com (smail2.5) id AA01455; 9 Jul 94 16:36:26 CDT (Sat) Subject: why no exploders? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 9 Jul 94 16:36:25 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.2 PL16] Message-Id: <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com> From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) asks: > Why? > Could you please say what > your bad experience with exploders has been, or why not dealing with > exploders has been better? > > I'm asking from the point of view of a large service provider with > experienced users. It has nothing to do with the technical aspects. It has everything to do with the nature of the list. You see, the list is a forum for Disney television animation and we have a couple of people who work at the Disney studios as members of the list. One of them freely dumps all sorts of inside information on us. He's also sent episode scripts. This is with the understanding that it's for our use only, and not to be spread with wild abandon about the net. I realize that it's not possible to educate all the users, but I try (I have a reputation of being a bit of a hardnose, but there's zero noise on the list). I have to have faith in the membership and hope they've read the guidelines, and it seems to have worked out so far. We've had a couple glitches in the past, a case of one user thinking all information on the net is like free love (for the taking and giving -- he's still like this, btw, and we still have arguments over various things) and he took some scripts and set them up for anonymous ftp (and took them right down again :-). So now we put lots of obvious notices (Do not post to the net, do not redistribute, etc, etc) on anything copyrighted that goes to the list. I understand Disney is the same way -- they don't really like stuff like this getting out into the public domain, so I think we're pretty lucky and don't want to abuse it. At one point I did have some exploders but I found they caused some confusion on the other end as the readers had no way of telling that the newsgroup they were reading was really a gated mailing list, so I removed them. (Usually when talking with said confused person, upon finding out it was a mailing list they lost interest, so it was just as well). My other mailing list is one of a sexual nature and people sometimes get paranoid about who might be reading what they're writing, but it's also very low volume so I don't worry about that one. -- Stephanie da Silva PO Box 720711 arielle@taronga.com Houston, TX 77272 Moderator, rec.food.recipes 713 568 0381 From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 9 22:21:59 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id WAA25377; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 22:21:59 GMT Received: from cs.umb.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id PAA25371; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 15:21:51 -0700 Received: from terminus.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA09315 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Sat, 9 Jul 1994 18:24:59 -0400 Message-Id: <199407092224.AA09315@cs.umb.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: why no exploders? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 09 Jul 1994 16:36:25 CDT." <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 1994 18:24:58 -0400 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9407091636.AA01455@taronga.taronga.com>, Stephanie da Silva writes: >psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) asks: > >> Why? > Could you please say what >> your bad experience with exploders has been, or why not dealing with >> exploders has been better? >> >> I'm asking from the point of view of a large service provider with >> experienced users. > >It has nothing to do with the technical aspects. It has everything to >do with the nature of the list. > [...] >At one point I did have some exploders but I found they caused some >confusion on the other end as the readers had no way of telling that >the newsgroup they were reading was really a gated mailing list, so I >removed them. (Usually when talking with said confused person, upon >finding out it was a mailing list they lost interest, so it was just as >well). Actually Stephanie put her finger on a couple of problems that I have with exploders. Unlike her general statement, it is partly a technical problem. Setting up an exploder requires that the site do something besides add: list-exploder::include:/spool/mailing-list/list to their aliases file. They also need to take steps to make sure that bounces from their exploder do not make it back to the list operator. Most people who set up exploders don't segment their exploders this way, so I have to try to figure out why I am getting a bounce for the address jim@bozo.xxx.com when jim@bozo.xxx.com isn't on my list. Usually I analyze the reciebed lines, and see if there is an exploded list somewhere along the way. If so, I try to get ahold of the postmaser and work things out. If the poostmaster is non-responsive after a week, the exploder gets dropped, and a standard form letter explaining why the exploder was dropped and the requirements for properly setting up an exploder is sent to the exploder address. The second problem is a people problem that Stephanie metions int he second paragraph above. Some people who are subscribed via exploders don't know how they are subscribed, and keep sending messages to the list administrative (or worse the list address) to try to get off the list. Of course I can't do anything about it, I have given up on trying to explain how they are actually getting the list mail. The concept of exploders is just too much for them to grasp. I just tell them to talk to their local sysadmin (as well as cc'ing the exploder owner and post,aster addrresses). I won't discuss the people who try to unsubscribe from a local newgroup using the list admin address rather than changing their .newsrc 8-). -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 ============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 10 02:40:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id CAA26919; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 02:40:07 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id TAA26898; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 19:39:52 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA07482; Sat, 9 Jul 94 22:42:30 EDT Message-Id: <9407100242.AA07482@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 9 Jul 1994 22:38 EDT Subject: Re: Attitudes, Service, and Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <9407081628.AA13791@taronga.taronga.com> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And there are those who really do try to follow the procedures, but must have missed something in the "translation." :-). [Names are masked to protect the well-intentioned.] ================================================================ Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 18:29:21 -0700 From: cxxxxxx@netcom.com (Xxxxx Xxxxxxx) Message-Id: <199407090129.SAA05416@netcom6.netcom.com> To: ballroom@MIT.EDU ballroom-request@athena.mit.edu ================================================================ From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 10 03:55:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id DAA27171; Sun, 10 Jul 1994 03:55:15 GMT Received: from comtch.iea.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940615) id UAA27162; Sat, 9 Jul 1994 20:55:05 -0700 Received: by comtch.iea.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0qMq1N-0003Z2C; Sat, 9 Jul 94 20:57 PDT To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: dmcevers@comtch.iea.com (Dan McEvers) Subject: List help Date: Sat, 09 Jul 1994 19:34:33 -0400 Message-ID: <9Gp7ka9tNI2C068yn@comtch.iea.com> Lines: 14 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am becoming aware of software to initiate and maintain a mailing list, but what I have been trying to find is program to expedite messages and commands to be sent to various lists in their proper format per individual list. Here is a scenario. I am trying to learn as much as I can