From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 3 04:55:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA08962; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:00:45 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA08956; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 03:00:34 -0700 Received: from acpub.duke.edu (mercury.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.100.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941001) with ESMTP id DAA15518 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 03:01:22 -0700 Received: from raphael.acpub.duke.edu (raphael.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.102.1]) by acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) with SMTP id GAA24604; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:00:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: John Younger Subject: Citing E-mail (summary) To: cni-copyright@cni.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SUMMARY of authoritative responses concerning e-mail citing & copyright [I have down-loaded the previous *AegeaNet* discussions about citing and copyright and can e-mail these to the interested] Friends! You may remember that about two weeks ago I wrote you to ask for advice concerning citing e-mail discussions & copyrighting them, that these concerns had come up in discussions over AegeaNet, a semi-professional & professional discussion group on pre-classical Greek matters. And that I represented a couple of other list-owners in the same general area. My colleagues & I had pretty much agreed on some basic principles that e-mail was public and, since it is in written form, therefore published; and that one needed to watch what one writes in that forum as in any other. I then turned to you, a copyright e-mail discussion group (cni-copyright@cni.org) and an e-mail list-owners discusion group (list-managers@greatcircle.com), and asked your advice. The responses are illuminating and I send them on to you. First, an abbreviated version of what I sent you; and Second, the responses (a selection), edited with credits given. ----- Friends! I have a question, which probably your lists have an already composed answer for. I manage a list on pre-classical Greek matters, with a subscription of about 400 members (say 50 communicate regularly, another 100 occasionally, the rest lurkers), mostly professional. The list is young, barely 9 monsths old. Some of the professional archaeologists have become concerned that their comments on the net will be cited in published (i.e., written in journals, etc.) articles. And others have become concerned that their comments will be plagiarized by others without citation, or will be taken as fact without verifying. To the last two concerns, I have written, that, as in life, there's little one can do to protect one's ideas from being taken literally and from just being taken. As to the first concern, I (and other list-managers in this general field of classical studies) have offered a citation-formula (e.g., "I am indebted for this idea to So-and-so, LIST, Date). But many subscribers have assumed that e-mail discussion groups were like casual conversations. I reminded the subscribers, however, that each posting went to over 400 people, most of whom were 'lurkers'. So, my questions are: are e-mail discussions like published comments? what is an accepted way to cite them? are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? ---- I repeat my four questions: > So, my questions are: > are e-mail discussions like published comments? > what is an accepted way to cite them? > are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? > is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? And here are some of the answers (with authors cited): 1) ARE E-MAIL DISCUSSIONS LIKE PUBLISHED COMMENTS? The rule of thumb is that you should not post anything to mailing lists or Usenet that you don't want your mother to know (or have posted on a billboard in your home town). scott@dsg.tandem.com The question should be: can something I say/write be cited Arguably yes. For example I can cite personnel letters (email or US mail) sent to me in articles. I can also cite discussions (whether they be in a bar or not). Also, I can cite talks/presentations in my papers. I think all aspects of citing email list traffic are covered under one of the above citation issues. John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu 2) WHAT IS AN ACCEPTED WAY TO CITE THEM? I'd rather the user verified the statement to be quoted with the author and then cited personal communication. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 Citation is a little difficult: who, date and Message-ID are the most reliable pieces of information after a context. Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk University of Liverpool, Computing Services One that I have seen looks like: Rouillard, John P., "Re: citations/copyrights of ...", via electronic mail on the mailing list, 16:44EDT, September 26, 1994. John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu I would tend to encourage using a Message-ID as well, as that field is known to be unique for each mailer. David Casti 3) ARE THEY AUTOMATICALLY COPYRIGHTED OR CAN THEY BE COPYRIGHTED? The truth of the matter is that *no one* knows. There are a lot of people who have shared a lot of speculation on this topic, but until a case arrives in front of a judge somewhere -- there is no case law on this matter. David Casti Per the Berne Convention, all writings are automatically copyrighted. No special notices are necessary. However, keep in mind that it has not yet been tested in court. Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers scott@dsg.tandem.com Anything in print (paper or electronically coded letters...) is copyrighted. If a person has an IDEA and gets it into PRINT of any sort, that print, which is the visible cloak of the idea is copyrighted. Only text can be copyrighted. Vocalized ideas need to be written down (song into scored music; speech into text). Copyright does not mean that material is not liftable, it means only that you can go to court over theft! BHARRIS@middlebury.edu Yes, everything you write is covered automatically by copyright. The question is: by posting do you give permission to repeat? Also remember that copyright protects utterances NOT ideas. If you don't want your ideas taken, don't utter them. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 4) IS THERE SUCH A THING AS BEING LIABLE FOR WHAT ONE SAYS ON THE NET? There was a case just about three years ago that settled part of this issue, specifically that the service provider [i.e., majordomo@acpub.duke.edu, and presumably the list-owner as well] was not legally liable for content. I do not recall hearing the outcome of the rest of the case, which would have established liability for electronically-disseminated publications. However, the safest route is to assume that, yes, you can be held liable for anything you say. Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers scott@dsg.tandem.com USENET news is in a similar situation. There have already been libel cases sucessfully brought which relied on electronic comments. It will probably vary form country to country. I personally would regard them as being in the public domain. Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk University of Liverpool, Computing Services Yes, you can be liable, but most likely the penalty is being thought a fool by others. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 3 14:59:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA10569; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:59:28 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA10563; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:59:23 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941001) with SMTP id IAA16655 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:00:11 -0700 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA22716; Mon, 3 Oct 94 10:53:07 EDT Message-Id: <9410031453.AA22716@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 3 Oct 94 14:53:00 GMT From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: AT&T PersonaLink Services (attpls.net) contacts Content-Type: text Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I represent the next generation of newbies.-) As of last week, AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (domain attpls.net) is on-line. This is a communications service to be used with Magic Cap devices such as Sony's new Magic Link PIC 1000. The bottom line is, it's electronic messaging for people who are not very techno-literate. The users are new, and to some extent, so are the people who operate the service day to day. As with any other site, if you need to work out issues with "somebody who runs the network," the postmaster account at attpls.net is the right place to contact. If you try that and for some reason still have problems, please contact me at psrchisholm@attmail.com, psrc@pegasus.att.com, 908-576-3252 (voice), or 908-576-6406 (fax). I'm just a developer; but I'm a little more "mailing list literate" than other members of PersonaLink, so I might better appreciate some list issues. Paul S. R. Chisholm psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (PersonaLink is a service mark of AT&T) I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. P.S.: It's pronounced "personal link," not "persona link." From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 17:27:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA13754; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:27:42 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA13747; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:27:33 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id KAA21928 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:28:15 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via SMTP (940627.SGI.8.6.9/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM> id KAA06846; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:26:44 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) for @sgi.sgi.com:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA25587; Fri, 7 Oct 94 10:26:42 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers List) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2219 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. This is a problem for me as this particular user wants to sign up (very badly wants to sign up) to the Mystery mailing list that I run. She can successfully sign herself up (ie. mail gets out from her machine and she uses the correct Majordomo subscribe commands), but mail can't seem to get back to her machine at all. That doesn't stop her though -- she keeps trying! :-) She keeps getting on the list, and I keep taking her off cause her mail all bounces. What a mess! Here's the headers of the errors I keep getting back: >From MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca Mon Oct 3 06:51:48 1994 Received: from giraffe.asd.sgi.com by lunch.asd.sgi.com via SMTP (931110.SGI/940406.SGI.AUTO) for /usr/local/bin/filter -o /usr/people/close/.filter_errors id AA10154; Mon, 3 Oct 94 06:51:48 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com by giraffe.asd.sgi.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for owner-mystery@lunch.asd.sgi.com id AA16526; Mon, 3 Oct 94 06:51:47 -0700 Received: from govonca.gov.on.ca by sgi.sgi.com via SMTP (940627.SGI.8.6.9/910110.SGI) for id GAA19134; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:51:45 -0700 Received: by govonca.gov.on.ca (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02998; Mon, 3 Oct 94 09:52:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 09:52:18 -0400 >From: MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Internal error Message-Id: <9410031352.AA02998@govonca.gov.on.ca> To: Status: RO ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <<< RCPT To: <<< DATA mr_talker: OK, MRIF Service V0.2 554 weatherston@torv05.ndm.gov.on.ca... Internal error ----- Unsent message follows ----- [Deleted for brevity.] ********************** I've sent mail to postmaster@gov.on.ca without getting any answer. Should I've also tried postmaster@ndm.gov.on.ca and postmaster@torv05.ndm.gov.on.ca without success too. Any other suggestions? -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Note new domain: "engr".) The location may change, but I'm always at lunch. :-) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 18:32:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA14265; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:32:08 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA14259; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:32:03 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA22222 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:32:41 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id OAA15558; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:29:45 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:29:44 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Diane Barlow Close cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? In-Reply-To: <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the > mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, > multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. Try looking the domain up in the InterNIC database and contact whomever is listed for that domain. The NIC usually lists phone numbers too, so if your email is ignored you at least have an escalation path more civilized than cutting off all SMTP traffic from the evil host. (Althought athat *would* be my next recommendation if you can't get help from the domain contact.) David. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 18:42:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA14346; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:42:44 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA14340; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:42:38 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA22274 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:43:19 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA11660; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:40:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199410071840.OAA11660@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers List), moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Oct 1994 10:26:41 PDT." <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 14:40:38 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the > mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, > multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. Here's what I do in general: a) if postmaster@foo.bar.com fails, I try postmaster@bar.com. (likewise postmaster@a.b.c.d -> postmaster@b.c.d -> postmaster@c.d) (probably won't help for this case, because on.ca is probably not a site, just a domain) b) try to find the names of contacts elsewhere at that site via whois -h ds.internic.net "string" (I tried looking for "on.ca" and "ontario", didn't find anything that looked to be at that site) c) use nslookup to find the name of the person responsible for administering DNS at that site, and send mail to that person. (often it's a DNS problem anyway) % nslookup # # ask my local server where to find info for gov.on.ca. # > set query=any > gov.on.ca. Server: UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU Address: 128.169.201.2 Non-authoritative answer: gov.on.ca nameserver = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca nameserver = mcu.gov.on.ca Authoritative answers can be found from: govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 mcu.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.68.229.67 # # now point nslookup at one of the authoritative servers # > lserver govonca.gov.on.ca Default Server: govonca.gov.on.ca Address: 192.75.156.244 # # and do the lookup # > gov.on.ca. Server: govonca.gov.on.ca Address: 192.75.156.244 gov.on.ca nameserver = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 gov.on.ca preference = 0, mail exchanger = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca origin = govonca.gov.on.ca mail addr = postmaster.govonca.gov.on.ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ serial=940903, refresh=3600, retry=600, expire=3600000, min=3600 govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 ...so the address is: postmaster@govonca.gov.on.ca. It might not work, but it's something else to try. Good luck, -- Keith Moore NETLIB development group Computer Science Department / University of Tennessee at Knoxville 107 Ayres Hall / Knoxville TN 37996-1301 Let's stamp out message router in our lifetime. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 19:23:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id TAA14635; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:23:35 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA14629; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:23:28 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id MAA22441 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:24:13 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id MAA06934; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:22:45 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA12443; Fri, 7 Oct 94 12:42:19 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410071942.AA12443@znyx.com> Subject: Advice for a newbie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 823 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, we finally got our mandate to set up an Internet Mailing list. From reading the helpful comments from posters on this list, and my observation that most lists are run by majordomon, I believe we want to use that package for our mailing list. My questions are as follows: 1. What/where are the best documents to read for setting up majordomo? 2. Does anyone know where perl can be obtained pre-complied to run on ISC UNIX? 3. If not, are the sources anywhere in gcc compilable form? Thanks in advance, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 8 16:29:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA21781; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 16:29:07 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA21775; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:29:02 -0700 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (sylviac@netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id JAA00694 for ; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:30:00 -0700 Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id JAA18615; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:28:54 -0700 From: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras) Message-Id: <199410081628.JAA18615@netcom17.netcom.com> Subject: Approve To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Mood Matters X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 762 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Because many subscriptions were improper in form and because netcom allows me access to back logs for only a few days, I asked that my list flag be set to approve all subscriptions. Since then, I have had NO subscriptions of improper form to correct! Is there something in the approve program that is filtering that wasn't happening before? Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? Netcom is using both. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SylviaC@netcom.com v/f:408 426 5335 Sylvia Caras, 146-5 Chrystal Ter, Santa Cruz CA 95060 It is not up to you to finish the work, but neither are you free not to take it up. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 9 03:10:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA24547; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 03:10:09 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id UAA24533; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:10:00 -0700 Received: from [143.191.19.72] (host-72.greatcircle.com [143.191.19.72]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id UAA03380; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:10:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199410090310.UAA03380@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 23:10:07 -0500 To: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@miles.greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Approve Cc: mcb@miles.greatcircle.com, brent@miles.greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:28 10/8/94 -0700, Sylvia Caras wrote: >Because many subscriptions were improper in form and because netcom allows >me access to back logs for only a few days, I asked that my list flag >be set to approve all subscriptions. > >Since then, I have had NO subscriptions of improper form to correct! >Is there something in the approve program that is filtering that wasn't >happening before? > >Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? >Netcom is using both. I don't know the answer, but this message really should have been posted to Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM, rather than List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, since it's completely Majordomo-specific. I suspect you'd get more and better answers from Majordomo-Users, too. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 10 00:00:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA00576; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 00:00:49 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA00570; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 17:00:44 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id RAA06643 for ; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 17:01:43 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.205] ([140.174.160.205]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA25713; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:59:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:59:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199410092259.PAA25713@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Approve Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:28 AM 10/8/94 -0700, Sylvia Caras wrote: snip > >Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? >Netcom is using both. Speaking of netcom, I'ver been trying to get them to offer a digest option for my list, if this is dependent on the version of majordomo and they are using both maybe something can be done...Why are they using both ? The Bakalite From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 10 21:43:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA06319; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:43:37 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA06312; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:43:31 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id OAA10408 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:44:20 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA24156; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:44:01 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA22777; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:15:54 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410102115.AA22777@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Mail log account To: MNARANJO@lan1.esan.edu.pe (Martin Naranjo) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Martin Naranjo" at Sep 2, 94 10:38:27 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Codorus Creek X-Last-Cd: Joe Satriani, "The Extremist" X-Last-Book: P.J. O'Rourke, "Give War a Chance" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6979 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Does any of you know of a software (commercial or shareware) from >which I can get mail traffic statistics based on logfiles produced >by syslogd on UNIX systems running sendmail? Would you please >give me the name of the program or tell me the place or ftp server >where I can get it? I would appreciate your helpful comments very much. Here's something I tossed together this afternoon; it's not elegant, fast, or clever, but if your needs are simple, this may be enough to get the job done...or it may provide a jumping-off point for the efforts of others. It's a pair of awk scripts that work together to reduce the information in syslog to a report showing bytes/messages received/sent per user. Cheers, Rich # This is a shell archive. # Remove everything above and including the cut line. # Then run the rest of the file through sh. #----cut here-----cut here-----cut here-----cut here----# #!/bin/sh # shar: Shell Archiver # Run the following text with /bin/sh to create: # README # mail1.awk # mail2.awk # example.out1 # example.out2 # example.syslog # This archive created: Mon Oct 10 17:40:03 1994 # By: Rich Kulawiec (Ditka Policy Institute) cat << \SHAR_EOF > README This pair of awk scripts are a first-order attempt to provide a summary of mail traffic based on the information contained in "syslog". They're not particularly elegant (probably because they were hacked over the course of a couple of hours) and someone will probably reinvent them in Perl. :-) But they're a starting point, and might even be marginally useful. Usage: awk -f mail1.awk < /var/log/syslog | awk -f mail2.awk BTW, the reason I wrote this as two scripts was the the task of reducing the syslog to one-line-per-transaction seems distinct from the task of producing a summary report. I wanted to keep these two decoupled to allow for possible intermediate filtering, and to make modifications easier. So, included below you'll find both scripts, an example syslog fragment, and the output from running that through mail1.awk, and the output from running *that* through mail2.awk. ---Rsk SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > mail1.awk # mail1.awk # Copyright Rich Kulawiec, 1994. # # Takes as input the "syslog" file written by sendmail (among other things) # and generates as output a report containing one line per mail message, # showing sender, recipient, size, date/time, and message-id. # # Tested on: SunOS 4.1.3 # # Known bugs: Does not cope gracefully with mail messages which have # been forwarded to pipes, e.g. .forward files containing invocations # of the Elm "filter" program. Doesn't preserve chronological order. # # See also: mail2.awk # BEGIN {} / sendmail.*: from/ { from[$6] = $7; size[$6] = $8; next } / sendmail.*: to/ { to[$6] = $7; next } / sendmail.*: message-id/ { mid[$6] = $7; month[$6] = $1; day[$6] = $2; time[$6] = $3; next } END { for ( i in from ) { printf("%s %s %s ",month[i],day[i],time[i]) printf("%s %s %s %s\n",size[i],from[i],to[i],mid[i]) } } SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > mail2.awk # mail2.awk # Copyright Rich Kulawiec, 1994. # # Takes as input the output of "mail1.awk", which has one line per mail # message, and generates a report showing the total number of bytes sent # and received, as well as the total number of messages sent and received, # by each address it finds. # # Tested on: SunOS 4.1.3 # # Known bugs: Doesn't preserve the order in which users are encountered # in the input. # # See also: mail1.awk # BEGIN {} /.*/ { a = index($4,"="); b = index($4,","); if ( (c = index($5,"<")) == 0) c = index($5,"="); if ( (d = index($5,">")) == 0) d = index($5,","); if ( (e = index($6,"<")) == 0) e = index($6,"="); if ( (f = index($6,">")) == 0) f = index($6,","); if ( (a*b*c*d*e*f) != 0 ) { bytes = substr($4,(a+1),(b-a-1)); from = substr($5,(c+1),(d-c-1)); to = substr($6,(e+1),(f-e-1)); tobytes[to] += bytes tomsg[to] += 1 frombytes[from] += bytes frommsg[from] += 1 # printf("%s bytes from %s to %s\n",bytes,from,to); } else { printf("Bad input record is %s\n",$0); } } END { printf("Msg recv Bytes recv User\n") printf("-------- ---------- ----\n") for ( i in tobytes) { printf("%8d %10d %s\n",tomsg[i],tobytes[i],i) } printf("\n\n") printf("Msg sent Bytes sent User\n") printf("-------- ---------- ----\n") for ( j in frombytes) { printf("%8d %10d %s\n",frommsg[j],frombytes[j],j) } } SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.out1 Oct 8 11:24:04 size=22341, from=, to=, message-id=<9494949494.939393@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 08:27:10 size=931, from=, to=, message-id=<987654321.AA12345@kkkkkk.net> Oct 8 10:55:34 size=1854, from=, to=, message-id=<12345678.jjjjjjj.com> Oct 8 15:54:20 size=21442, from= to=, message-id=<4949494949.393939@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 06:00:01 size=3002, from=, to=, message-id=<000111222.AA3333@zzz.edu> SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.out2 Msg recv Bytes recv User -------- ---------- ---- 3 45637 person@host.domain 1 3002 somebody@thishost.edu 1 931 someuser Msg sent Bytes sent User -------- ---------- ---- 1 931 fffff%ggggg@hhhhh.net 2 43783 mailer-request@tttt.uuuu.org 1 1854 iii@jjjjjj.com 1 3002 xxxxx@yyyyy.zzz.edu SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.syslog Oct 8 06:00:01 gynko sendmail[10269]: AA10269: message-id=<000111222.AA3333@zzz.edu> Oct 8 06:00:01 gynko sendmail[10269]: AA10269: from=, size=3002, class=0 Oct 8 06:00:02 gynko sendmail[10271]: AA10269: to=, delay=00:00:02, stat=Sent Oct 8 08:27:10 gynko sendmail[10326]: AA10326: message-id=<987654321.AA12345@kkkkkk.net> Oct 8 08:27:10 gynko sendmail[10326]: AA10326: from=, size=931, class=0 Oct 8 08:27:11 gynko sendmail[10328]: AA10326: to=, delay=00:00:01, stat=Sent Oct 8 10:55:34 gynko sendmail[10384]: AA10384: message-id=<12345678.jjjjjjj.com> Oct 8 10:55:34 gynko sendmail[10384]: AA10384: from=, size=1854, class=0 Oct 8 10:57:23 gynko sendmail[10386]: AA10384: to=, delay=00:01:50, stat=Sent Oct 8 11:24:04 gynko sendmail[10400]: AA10400: message-id=<9494949494.939393@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 11:24:04 gynko sendmail[10400]: AA10400: from=, size=22341, class=0 Oct 8 11:24:05 gynko sendmail[10402]: AA10400: to=, delay=00:00:03, stat=Sent Oct 8 15:54:20 gynko sendmail[10574]: AA10574: message-id=<4949494949.393939@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 15:54:20 gynko sendmail[10574]: AA10574: from= size=21442, class=0 Oct 8 15:54:21 gynko sendmail[10576]: AA10574: to=, delay=00:00:03, stat=Sent SHAR_EOF # End of shell archive exit 0 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 16:42:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA12061; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:42:03 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA12055; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:41:58 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA14106 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:42:58 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA21569; Tue, 11 Oct 94 09:43:47 -0700 Message-Id: <9410111643.AA21569@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Tue, 11 Oct 94 09:43:47 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: 73F693D5 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 73F693D5 From: Alec Saunders To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 21:49:42 PDT Subject: Experience Managing Very Large Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone got experience with managing very large lists. I run a moderated list with 11,000 members on it. Majordomo seems to be choking a bit on it, and we think the interpreted nature of PERL is partly to blame. Is there a better choice for a listserver for this size of list? Alec. From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 21:02:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA13177; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 21:02:32 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA13171; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:02:26 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id OAA14923 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:03:26 -0700 Received: by panix.com id AA18137 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.com); Tue, 11 Oct 1994 17:02:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 17:02:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield Subject: Starting a list To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Oliver@panix.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to start a list. Can a Mailing list be combined with a bulletin board? Can a bulletin board be connected to the Internet? How? *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 23:39:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id XAA13925; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:39:38 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA13919; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:33 -0700 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA15294 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:40:33 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA22403; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:40:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists To: Alec Saunders cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9410111643.AA21569@netmail2.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Oct 1994, Alec Saunders wrote: > Has anyone got experience with managing very large lists. I run a > moderated list with 11,000 members on it. Majordomo seems to be > choking a bit on it, and we think the interpreted nature of PERL is > partly to blame. Is there a better choice for a listserver for this > size of list? I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 minutes to remove a name from the list. It also doesn't handle file locking as efficiently as possible, though some patches have been posted for that (I'm waiting for them to be rolled into the next release). Overall I'm quite happy with it for maintaining the larger list - if a few pieces were recoded (or implemented in C, maybe?) it would be a dream. Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 12 16:44:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA18395; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 16:44:31 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA18389; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:44:26 -0700 Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA17486 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:45:08 -0700 From: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:44:14 -0500 Message-Id: <0012e9c125e028294@epx.cis.umn.edu> Subject: Which? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:44:13 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a product that would process class lists here at the University. Initially, we would like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- maybe 20-100 members. The membership lists would be updated weekly for the first six weeks of each quarter. The lists would be removed quarterly. The owner would control the membership list, and only members could email to the list. This product would be used on some Unix platform - we have not yet determined which. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on this? Jane K. Gehan Computer & Information Services Internet: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu. University of Minnesota Phone: (612) 626-1810 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 12 18:23:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA18941; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 18:23:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA18935; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:23:16 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA17820 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:23:54 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA24718; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:18:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Alec Saunders , List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:57 PDT." Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:18:21 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at > adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box > doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 > minutes to remove a name from the list. Just for another data point...I manage a list that has around 4500 users, using software that I wrote myself. (no, you probably don't want it...it's very specialized for a particular group of users). But the software is written in C, and it takes about .5 seconds (measured) to add or remove a user on a moderately loaded SparcStation 2 running SunOS 4. The list of users is stored in an ordinary text file, and changes are accomplished by locking the file, copying the file to a new file and making changes on the fly, renaming the files so that the new replaces the old, and unlocking. So it sounds like it might well be worth the trouble to rewrite the majordomo list update code in C. Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 04:56:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA01010; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:56:04 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA01004; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:55:59 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id VAA00124 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:57:09 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA02918; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 17:02:37 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA29079; Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:11:36 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Which? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0012e9c125e028294@epx.cis.umn.edu> from "jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu" at Oct 12, 94 11:44:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1269 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am looking for a product that would process class > lists here at the University. Initially, we would > like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- > maybe 20-100 members. Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class UoM offers. I hope you realize that this will be a full time job no matter what list manager you use. > Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on this? I was just putting up my first mailing list, and was just about convinced to go with majordomo. Then some poster on this list advised me to look at SmartMail. To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. There are a number of feature differences between the two, but what did it for me is that SmartMail/procmail does not require perl, and was much lighter on our system resources. We host on a piddling 386 system with 16MB running ISC UNIX, but with SmartMail/procmail I think we could handle thousands of subscribers with no problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:08:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01423; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:08:56 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01416; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:08:51 -0700 Received: from get.wired.com (wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id WAA00327 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:10:19 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA29701; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:09:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:09:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Which? To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Alan Deikman wrote: > To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. > > There are a number of feature differences between the two, but > what did it for me is that SmartMail/procmail does not require perl, > and was much lighter on our system resources. We host on a piddling > 386 system with 16MB running ISC UNIX, but with SmartMail/procmail > I think we could handle thousands of subscribers with no problem. Could you provide a pointer to this? Thanx. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:20:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01566; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:20:12 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01560; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:20:07 -0700 Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu (Osiris.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id WAA00495 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:21:33 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id VAA27844; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:21:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:21:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199410130421.VAA27844@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu To: Keith Moore Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Alec Saunders , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists References: <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-Attribution: JRhine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk KM == Keith Moore >> I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at >> adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box >> doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 >> minutes to remove a name from the list. KM> So it sounds like it might well be worth the trouble to rewrite the KM> majordomo list update code in C. If your algorithm was implemented in Perl, is would be equally as fast. The slow operation of Majordomo list updates is due to other design problems. -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "Remember, only users lose drugs." -- from Richard Stueven From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:59:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01762; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:59:51 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01756; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:59:46 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id XAA00674 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 23:01:12 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id WAA10964; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:59:16 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA02950; Wed, 12 Oct 94 23:21:16 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410130621.AA02950@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Which? (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 23:21:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1252 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian wrote: > On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Alan Deikman wrote: > > To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. > > Could you provide a pointer to this? Thanx. > > Brian OK: the following is from the README file. Procmail & formail mail processing package. Copyright (c) 1990-1994, S.R. van den Berg, The Netherlands. Internet E-mail: berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Snail-Mail: P.O.Box 21074 6369 ZG Simpelveld The Netherlands Procmail mailinglist: procmail-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de SmartList mailinglist: SmartList-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de A recent version can be picked up at various comp.sources.misc archives. The latest version can be obtained directly from the ftp-archive at: ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (137.226.225.3) as (g)zipped tar file: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.gz <160KB as compressed tar file: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.Z <224KB ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 11:38:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA04146; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:38:47 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA04139; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:38:42 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id EAA02405 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:40:09 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA02752; Thu, 13 Oct 94 07:39:21 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA05972; Thu, 13 Oct 94 07:39:06 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410131139.AA05972@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Which? To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Oct 12, 94 11:11:35 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Spring Creek X-Last-Cd: Pete Townshend, "Empty Glass" X-Last-Book: "The Ultimate Run", William Endicott X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1413 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I am looking for a product that would process class >> lists here at the University. Initially, we would >> like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- >> maybe 20-100 members. > >Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class >UoM offers. > >I hope you realize that this will be a full time job no matter >what list manager you use. I concur -- this is going to be a lot of work. Maybe the way to solve the problem is to use news instead, and create one newsgroup per class, making the instructor/TA the moderator. Of course, this would allow users who are not in the class to read the messages, but it seems to me that most class-related discussions don't particularly need to be closed. It also avoids the potential glut of messages -- if there are 500 lists of, say, 50 members each, and each instructor decides to drop the class a line on Monday morning, that's 25k messages. We used this solution at Purdue's Computing Center, starting about 1984 or so; it seems to work. If you do go this route, I'd recommend setting expire times on the class-related newsgroups at ~4 months (or however long your academic term is) and then manually expiring them all at the end of the semester. (If students know that the messages will always be there, they will be less likely to save copies in their own directories; at the message volume you're contemplating, this is an issue.) ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 12:27:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA04439; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:27:15 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA04433; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:27:10 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id FAA02599 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:28:24 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA27971; Thu, 13 Oct 94 13:26:13 +0100 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA16757; Thu, 13 Oct 94 13:24:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9410131224.AA16757@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:24:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: Keith Moore's message as of 1994 Oct 12 Wed 14:18. <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> To: Alec Saunders Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >> I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at >> adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box >> doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 >> minutes to remove a name from the list. >Just for another data point...I manage a list that has around 4500 users, >using software that I wrote myself. (no, you probably don't want it...it's >very specialized for a particular group of users). But the software is >written in C, and it takes about .5 seconds (measured) to add or remove a >user on a moderately loaded SparcStation 2 running SunOS 4. The list of SmartList on the other hand: - Does a fuzzy match between address and list before removing "the" address, i.e. on an unloaded sparc10, 4500 users, removing an address this takes about 1.6 seconds; for 17000 users this increases to 6 seconds (the rewrite is in-situ, only rewriting the tail, no new file created). - Large lists are presented to sendmail in chunks before redistribution (to ensure that sendmail doesn't choke on the size of the list, also parallelises the distribution through sendmail to a configurable extent). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). You are currently aboard a fully automated plane. There is no pilot on board. Rest assured, you have nothing to worry about... worry about... worry about... From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 04:51:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA11869; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 04:51:36 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA11863; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:51:31 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id VAA09867 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:52:59 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.201] ([140.174.160.201]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12334; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:48:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:48:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140448.VAA12334@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I find it quite annoying to see a zillion newsgroups created for UCB, and most of them are completely unused. This is a complete waste of resources and a nuisance when reading news, especially if you are using a reader where you have to tell it "no" for each new group. I once set a weight on the "n" key and walked away....I think using lists and making the instructors responsible for dealing with them is much more appropriate. News is supposed to be items of general interest, if all the participants in a forum are known by name and others are excluded, why make it so they have to look at it all the time? Of course, instructors may be computer illiterate and refuse to manage a list (it's not THAT hard), but in that case they probably wouldn't use the newsgroups anyway! Just my opinion.... The Bakalite >>Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class >>UoM offers. Maybe the way to >solve the problem is to use news instead, and create one newsgroup >per class From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 05:46:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA12446; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:46:02 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA12440; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 22:45:56 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id WAA10725 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 22:47:15 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA21085; Fri, 14 Oct 94 01:46:31 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA13929; Fri, 14 Oct 94 01:46:27 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410140546.AA13929@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Which? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199410140448.VAA12334@slip-1.slip.net> from "The Bakalite" at Oct 13, 94 09:48:10 pm Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Spring Creek X-Last-Cd: Pete Townshend, "Empty Glass" X-Last-Book: "The Ultimate Run", William Endicott X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2447 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I find it quite annoying to see a zillion newsgroups created for UCB, and >most of them are completely unused. This is a complete waste of resources >and a nuisance when reading news, especially if you are using a reader >where you have to tell it "no" for each new group. I once set a weight on >the "n" key and walked away.... Hmmm, the newsreaders I use (rn, trn, strn) all allow one to hit a single "N" in order to acknowledge (and ignore) all new newsgroups. In campus environment where class designators tend to be stable (e.g. EE 311 is likely to keep that number for many years), the newsgroups need only be created once, so long-term users would only be mildly inconvenienced on one occasion. >I think using lists and making the instructors responsible for dealing >with them is much more appropriate. >News is supposed to be items of general interest, if all the participants >in a forum are known by name and others are excluded, why make it so they >have to look at it all the time? I don't know where you got the idea that "News is supposed to be items of general interest"; newsgroups may be as specialized as their audience allows. (In fact, I think the only remaining major difference between news and mailing lists is the propagation methodology. I figure that sometime in the next couple of years we'll all realize this and work out a hybrid which attempts to provide the best of both worlds. But I digress.) I don't understand your second comment; it's not necessary that all the students reading a class-related newsgroup know each other, nor is it necessary that they read every message -- this also applies if the instructors use a mailing list. >Of course, instructors may be computer illiterate and refuse to manage a >list (it's not THAT hard), but in that case they probably wouldn't use the >newsgroups anyway! Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not manage a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it at the time; and I don't think any of the packages now available would allow a near-computer illiterate person to do so now). However, they did seem to be handle Pnews enough to post articles -- leaving us (the computing center staff) to actually administer the news system itself. In short, we found news to be a much better fit to the large-scale sort of problem that was brought up here the other day; my hunch is that it's still a better fit. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 00:35:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA13076; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:39:42 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id XAA13063; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:39:31 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id XAA11501; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:40:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140640.XAA11501@miles.greatcircle.com> To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Which? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:40:37 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, this is a mailing list for mailing list managers. Let's leave arguments about netnews to the folks on USENET. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 07:47:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA13835; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:47:13 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA13829; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:47:07 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id AAA12297 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:48:32 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.209] ([140.174.160.209]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13107; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:44:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:44:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:46 AM 10/14/94 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >Hmmm, the newsreaders I use (rn, trn, strn) all allow one to hit a >single "N" in order to acknowledge (and ignore) all new newsgroups. Of course, provided you don't care about all the new groups that have been added which follow the 300 newsgroups that AAA university has just added.... > >I don't know where you got the idea that "News is supposed to be items >of general interest"; newsgroups may be as specialized as their audience >allows. A newsgroup is seen by all subscribers of the internet whenever they consult the Full Group List (provided the group is carried) and therefore it is easily accessible by almost anyone at anytime. A mailing list is invisible to all except the subscribers, except for occasional pointers to it in related posts. It is simply better suited to a group of people whose email addresses are known and who are all and the only participants to the discussion. I have no problem with a Newsgroup set up for UCB chem students that is available to anyone interested and also carries traffic for certain courses, what bothers me is that I (plus millions of others) have to look at a newsgroup, nay 300 of them! that we cannot participate in regardless of our level of interest unless we pay 6 thousand bucks a year tuition! Let them use a venue that is not so public. They could for example set up a BBS on one of the university computers that carries said traffic. Why send it out all over the world? I basically feel that the internet (it's origins notwithstanding) is the wrong medium for this stuff. If the students are hooked up and want to use it, fine, just don't clog up everyones News. (In fact, I think the only remaining major difference between >news and mailing lists is the propagation methodology Precisely my point! Each method of propagation favors certain uses. You wouldn't start a newsgroup for something only 12 people are interested in, would you? A list seems reasonable however. . I figure that >sometime in the next couple of years we'll all realize this and work >out a hybrid which attempts to provide the best of both worlds. I think there is a very useful separation between the two, and hybrids already exist. > I don't understand your second comment; it's not necessary >that all the students reading a class-related newsgroup know each other, >nor is it necessary that they read every message -- this also applies >if the instructors use a mailing list. No, all I am saying is that they are the only ones using it and they are all known to the university who can easily subscribe them all to a list. >Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not manage >a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it at the time; >and I don't think any of the packages now available would allow a near-computer >illiterate person to do so now). However, they did seem to be handle Pnews >enough to post articles -- leaving us (the computing center staff) to actually >administer the news system itself. I find this hard to believe, once a list is set up and automated (say with majordomo) and especially if there are no un/subscriptions during the whole semester, what is it exactly that they couldn't do? Are you telling me they can read news but not mail? > >In short, we found news to be a much better fit to the large-scale sort of >problem that was brought up here the other day; my hunch is that it's >still a better fit. > >---Rsk Well, if that's all that matters, I sure won't be able to stop you. Let me just make two more comments. 1) As citizens of the net we all owe each other a certain amount of respect, trust and compassion, I often find this on the net, and it always amazes me (the computer crowd has a long history of this and Shareware/Freeware is only one aspect of it). Creating 500 newsgroups that you *know* no one else besides the students will be able to participate in is just plain rude (for reasons outlined above). 2)It is my suspicion, after having been on a couple of class lists, that a list would be much more likely to generate a feeling of community and an active exchange of information among classmates. A list "feels" more private, and more personal, and people tend to read (or scan) every message. Regards, The Bakalite From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 07:56:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA13885; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:56:31 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA13879; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:56:26 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id AAA12344; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:57:54 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.203] ([140.174.160.203]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13142; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:53:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:53:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140753.AAA13142@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brent Chapman , rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:40 PM 10/13/94 -0700, Brent Chapman wrote: >Folks, this is a mailing list for mailing list managers. Let's leave >arguments about netnews to the folks on USENET. Sorry, my goof. Anyone wanna continue this lets take it somewhere else. The Bakalite BTW, is there a way to intercept email that you've sent out? From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 04:23:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA15311; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:56:44 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA15305; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 03:56:36 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id DAA13168 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 03:58:05 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id GAA09037; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:55:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:55:27 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: The Bakalite cc: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Which? In-Reply-To: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, The Bakalite wrote: > You wouldn't start a newsgroup for something only 12 people are > interested in, would you? Sure, and then set the propogation to null -- or news servers in your own domain only. You can have all the local groups you want, and it isn't a problem unless you propogate them into the rest of the net. David. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:26:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16249; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:26:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16243; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:26:02 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id GAA13781 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:27:26 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:38 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:36 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199410141326.23120.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> (pbraunb@netcom.com) Subject: Re: Which? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please allow me to drag out this thread even further. This question was brought up by Chris Koenigsberg in July. I sent him this answer then: | At our site, netgroups are used extensively. So an undergraduate would | be member of the groups s217, 217-3, s142, 142-1 if he attends the | courses IN217 and IN142, in class 3 and 1 respectively. | | Now, via sendmail magic, the TA's can send mail to netgroup.142-1 to | reach their students, and the professor can mail netgroup.s142 to | reach them all. | | Netgroup membership also determines printer quotas and such things. | | Of course, this necessitates quite different routines when | registering your students at the beginning at the term, but it may | very well be worth it. The registering is done with computers | anyway, here. I might also add that for some courses, we also have newsgroups (like "ifi.in105") which can be used for questions in plenum. These newsgroups are of course not distributed outside the University -- I don't think there is much demand! :-) Kjetil T. (just a satisfied student) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:33:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16393; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:33:56 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16387; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:33:50 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id GAA13936 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:35:17 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:34 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199410141334.24558.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [olumide@adsznet.com: $$$ Internet Card] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I received this on one of the mailing lists I maintain (dewy-fields -- about the Norwegian band Bel Canto) Has anyone else seen this? I returned his favour and gave him a sample binary (in 40 parts) which I hope he will find useful. Childish, I know, but I can't help it... Kjetil T. PS. I have the complete headers if you want them -- it does not look like a fake/spoof. | From: olumide@adsznet.com | X-Mailer: UUPlus Mail 1.51 | To: dewy-fields@ifi.uio.no | Subject: $$$ Internet Card | Organization: Automated Data Sciences | Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 20:08:59 EST | | | $$$$WWW - This is an unsolicited mail. Please you do not have tomread | it. Thanks. | | | We market a quick reference Internet Card. If you are interested please | send your name and mailing address PLUS your Internet Address and a $10 | fee to: | | Internet Card | P.O.Box 1825 | Woodbridge, VA 22193 | | | Thanks. | | Oolumide Ola From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:35:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16424; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:35:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16413; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:34:58 -0700 Received: from worldlink.worldlink.com (worldlink.com [38.8.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id GAA13947 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:36:24 -0700 Received: by worldlink.worldlink.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-Worldlink) id AA07199; Fri, 14 Oct 94 09:34:52 -0400 Message-Id: <2991227069.1.ny001007@mail.nyser.net> In-Reply-To: <199410140640.XAA11501@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 09:32:49 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Aaron Goldsmith" Organization: UAHC Youth Division Subject: Help w/Listproc. v 7.0 X-Mailer: NYSERLink-DOS (3.3) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manage a list using listproc. 7.0. I've been trying to send commands via email to the listproc to change various configurations of the list. I keep getting error messages back because I have not properly typed in the commands in the correct sequence. If someone out there is familiar with using listproc 7.0 please write an example of how I would change the list so that one of its configurations reads REPLY-TO-LIST rather than REPLY-TO-SENDER. Thanxs. Aaron Goldsmith SYSOP List: UAHCAMPUS (nysernet) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 14:59:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA17057; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:59:48 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA17051; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:59:44 -0700 Received: from cs.bu.edu (root@CS.BU.EDU [128.197.2.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id IAA14492 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:01:11 -0700 Received: from csa.bu.edu by cs.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id KAA20400; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:56 -0400 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: by csa.bu.edu (8.6.9/Spike-2.1) id KAA21644; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199410141458.KAA21644@csa.bu.edu> Subject: Re: Help w/Listproc. v 7.0 To: ny001007@mail.nyser.net (Aaron Goldsmith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2991227069.1.ny001007@mail.nyser.net> from "Aaron Goldsmith" at Oct 14, 94 09:32:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 738 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I manage a list using listproc. 7.0. I've been trying to send commands > via email to the listproc to change various configurations of the list. > > I keep getting error messages back because I have not properly typed in > the commands in the correct sequence. > > If someone out there is familiar with using listproc 7.0 please write an > example of how I would change the list so that one of its configurations > reads REPLY-TO-LIST rather than REPLY-TO-SENDER. > > Thanxs. > > Aaron Goldsmith > SYSOP > List: UAHCAMPUS (nysernet) > This is not a support list for 7.0; you need to contact CREN (If you have 7.0 you surely have CREN's email address). At any rate, the syntax is: conf list password reply-to-list Tasos From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 18:13:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA18837; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 18:13:50 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA18831; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:13:45 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id LAA15990 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:15:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199410141815.LAA15990@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3228; Fri, 14 Oct 94 19:11:41 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 3775; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:11:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:00:48 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Which? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Rich Kulawiec said: >Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not >manage a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it >at the time; and I don't think any of the packages now available would >allow a near-computer illiterate person to do so now). It would of course be very difficult for a non-technical person to manage mailing lists based on sendmail configuration entries on his own. It would be ridiculous to even attempt it, in fact. But there are hundreds of non-technical people who manage LISTSERV mailing lists successfully, with the occasional help of a helpdesk person or LISTSERV maintainer. Don't take my word for granted; ask for testimonies on the LSTOWN-L list :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 11:26:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA18170; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA18164; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:58:22 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id JAA15441 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:59:50 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id JAA08692; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:56:57 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA16865; Fri, 14 Oct 94 10:20:25 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410141720.AA16865@znyx.com> Subject: Help with sendmail.cf To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 905 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, we put smartlist on-line two nights ago and now we have over fifty subscribers! (May not seem like much to you guys with five digit subscription lists, but remember I'm a newbie.) And lots of bounces. Well, there are several problems, some of which don't belong on list-managers because they are smartlist specific, but one thing we traced down was the sendmail.cf file we had was mangling Internet addresses. It didn't know all the foriegn country codes, such as x.y.ch and so modified the address to the local domain. Bouncebouncebounce. Does anyone know of any more sendmail.cf gotchas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 18:35:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA19174; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 18:35:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA19168; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:35:15 -0700 Received: from page1.com (page1.com [149.80.1.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id LAA16346 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:36:32 -0700 Received: from chronicle.page1.com by page1.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0M) id AA01318; Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:26:58 -0400 Received: from ccMail by chronicle.page1.com id AA782170409 Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:33:29 EST Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:33:29 EST From: "Tom DeLoughry" Message-Id: <9409147821.AA782170409@chronicle.page1.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Chronicle article on listservs Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (This was cross-posted to LSTOWN-L) Dear List Managers: The Chronicle of Higher Education is planning an article on the role that Internet mailing lists are playing in scholarly communication. I would love to hear from some of you who can report on the role you think your lists are playing in your respective disciplines. Please write to me at the address below. I'm interested in knowing why people take on the responsibilities of managing lists? How do you find the time? Do you get any professional rewards for doing it? Do you include your role as a list owner on you CV? Are your universities supportive or do they grouse about the burden the listserv puts on their computers? Be sure to let me know the name of your list, how big it is, how long it has existed, etc. I'd also like to know your name, title, and a phone number where I can call you. I appreciate any input that folks can provide. Sincerely, Thomas J. DeLoughry Senior Editor for Information Technology The Chronicle of Higher Education tom_deloughry@chronicle.page1.com ph: 202-466-1061 fax: 202-296-2691 From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 12:11:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA18557; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:33:59 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA18551; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:33:51 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id KAA15759 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:35:16 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA16447; Fri, 14 Oct 94 12:48:38 EDT Message-Id: <9410141648.AA16447@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Original-Cc: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se Date: 14 Oct 1994 11:52 EDT Subject: re: [olumide@adsznet.com: $$$ Internet Card] In-Reply-To: <199410141334.24558.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme says: >Hello, I received this on one of the mailing lists I maintain ... >Has anyone else seen this? I returned his favour and gave him a >sample... Yes, I got this Internet Card "spam" too (though it was sent to the wrong address and only reached me and not my whole list). If you read the headers carefully, you notice that the organization "Automated Data Sciences," which probably makes and markets this card, has a UUCP connection via holonet.net. In other words, if you want to send a complaint to a postmaster somewhere, postmaster@adsznet.com probably won't be very effective, since adsznet.com appears to be the domain for the offending organization. However, someone at holonet.net may be a good place to send a complaint to, since they apparently are providing Internet connectivity for adsznet.com. (But I'd make the message to holonet.net somewhat more polite, since they are 1 or 2 steps removed from the offender.) Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 19:45:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id TAA19612; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:45:45 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA19606; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:45:40 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id MAA16832 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:46:59 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id PAA11034; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:44:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199410141944.PAA11034@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Help with sendmail.cf In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:20:24 PDT." <9410141720.AA16865@znyx.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:44:30 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Well, there are several problems, some of which don't belong on > list-managers because they are smartlist specific, but one thing > we traced down was the sendmail.cf file we had was mangling Internet > addresses. It didn't know all the foriegn country codes, such as > x.y.ch and so modified the address to the local domain. Any sendmail configuration that depends on knowing a list of top-level domains is hopelessly broken. Even if it works now, new top-level domains are being added all the time. You need to throw that config file out and start afresh. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 21:30:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA20167; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 21:30:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA20154; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:29:57 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id OAA17265 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:31:24 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HI9VLFTKW0001MP0@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:01 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HI9VKT35PC00LB3Z@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:06:36 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA25677; Fri, 14 Oct 94 16:56:10 -0300 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1843 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators. Because mailing lists make it possible for a single individual to control a potentially important avenue of communication, there is growing concern that this control could be abused and could lead to censorship and unfair restriction on access to information. I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a young foreign scientist. After a short time we had a falling out and he moved the list to another site, by simply copying all the addresses. Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us (although there was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being disruptive or otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). We now find ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an increasingly important avenue of communication in our field. I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to be a very desirable way to proceed. Perhaps we need a code of conduct for mailing list administrators, but how can it be enforced? Bill Silvert -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 22:19:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA20398; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 22:19:39 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id PAA20392; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:19:34 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id PAA17470 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:20:57 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id PAA22777; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:18:02 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA19778; Fri, 14 Oct 94 15:41:35 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410142241.AA19778@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Oct 14, 94 04:56:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2098 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have > simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to > be a very desirable way to proceed. Perhaps we need a code of conduct > for mailing list administrators, but how can it be enforced? I think you are just about out of luck unless your field has a overseeing body of some sort. Electrical Engineers have the IEEE. Lawyers have the BAR. Oceanographers have ... what? OK, suppose you have a respected and subscribed-to organization called the Fish Committee. You should have the e-mail addresses of a fair portion of the list you were excluded from and if you don't you should know someone who can help you get it. Then you should contact the Fish Committee and explain the situation at the next meeting, volunteer start the group's official mailing list. The rules of the list will be Committee sanctioned, and subject to checks and balances. If the Fish Committee really does represent the scientists in the field, the sanctioned list will become the known, important source of information and the old list will become eventually ignored. Most of the group would support this, because they would not want to be abusively excluded any more than you do. A mailing list distribution file is only private to the extent that it contains addresses of people who do not post to it. In other words, if I save all the e-mail I get from list-managers over a period of time, I should have the most important names that Brent has on his system anyway. If he kicks me off, I know other people he hasn't kicked off that would get the same information for me. Or I could sign on anonymously and just lurk. I haven't observed Brent being abusive, have you? > Bill Silvert Regards and good luck, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 00:35:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA21150; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:35:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA21144; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:35:13 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id RAA22215 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:36:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199410150036.RAA22215@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3680; Sat, 15 Oct 94 01:33:13 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 2407; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 01:33:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:49:42 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Bill Silvert In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) Bill Silvert said: Note: I'm in charge of the machine on which the list Bill refers to is run. I am *not* in charge of the list, just the machine on which it runs. But, because of that, I've been cc:ed on quite a lot of messages between Bill and Aldo. >I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. >Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a young ^^^^^ >foreign scientist. ^^^^^^^ In what way is it relevant that Aldo is young and "foreign"? Would it make any difference if he were Canadian? >After a short time we had a falling out and he moved the list to another >site, by simply copying all the addresses. Perhaps because you are a foreigner :-), you conveniently forget to mention that your list was not working well, and was moved just a few days after its creation. >Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of >other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us (although there >was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being disruptive or >otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). We now find >ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an increasingly >important avenue of communication in our field. I agree that Aldo is often too heavy-handed. I don't know the facts and can't comment on your particular gripe, but knowing Aldo you may well have a point. Still, I would like to point out that, since the list was moved in January, Aldo has been putting a tremendous amount of work in advertising the list, hunting around for relevant professional documents, talking to the press and obtaining permission to redistribute articles on the list, contacting personalities and making them join the list, etc. The reason the list now has over 900 subscribers and has become an "important avenue of communication" is that Aldo has been spending so much time working on it. Again, you may well have a point about the way he deleted you, but he did not simply steal the list from you as you seem to imply. There were maybe 200 subscribers when he relocated the list, and many were sending gripes about the quality of the service. Aldo made the list into what it now is, working sometimes until 4-5am. He isn't being paid for this work, and if he thinks you're being a pain in the butt and doesn't want you on his list, well, I may not agree with him, but it's certainly his prerogative. Incidentally, if you go around commenting on people's age and citizenship in public, and without having the common courtesy of sending them a copy, I can certainly understand why he gave you the boot. >I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to >the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a >wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are >frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. > >Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have >simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to >be a very desirable way to proceed. You complain about autocracy and censorship on a list which was started by the same person who is now running it (as opposed to someone who simply took over an existing, fully established list). Well, noone is preventing you from starting your own list with your own policy. I'm sure Aldo would agree to let you post ONE message to his list announcing the new one, so that people who don't agree with Aldo's policy may join your list. In fact, I seem to remember that you DID try this in the past, although there has been so much mail on this subject that I discarded most of it and can't check my archives. The reason this is "not practical" is that most of the current subscribers are perfectly happy with Aldo's occasionally heavy-handed but noise-free handling of the list. You don't have to like it, but I don't like the way you're attempting to blame Aldo for having created a highly successful list where you had failed and then running it as he sees fit. The laws generally allow people who create, say, a business from scratch to run it as they see fit if it succeeds. You don't have to like the way they run it, but you don't have to work for them either. This is called a "free country", and I always thought Canada was one. Being a technical person with your own machine, where Aldo barely knew how to send mail, you were in fact at an advantage. Aldo worked harder, and he won. You can take it gracefully, or you can waste people's time bitching around; it's your call. I just wanted to set the record straight for people who don't have any knowledge of the story. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 00:45:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA21261; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:45:30 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA21255; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:45:25 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id RAA22327; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:46:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199410150046.RAA22327@miles.greatcircle.com> To: Eric Thomas cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, Bill Silvert Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:49:42 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:46:50 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas writes: # On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) Bill Silvert # said: # # Note: I'm in charge of the machine on which the list Bill refers to is # run. I am *not* in charge of the list, just the machine on which it runs. # But, because of that, I've been cc:ed on quite a lot of messages between # Bill and Aldo. STOP before we get into a flame war here... Bill's message obviously went to great pains to avoid mentioning the particular list in question, and the particular people involved. Given that, I don't think it was his intent to discuss this PARTICULAR situation, which I think would be beyond the scope of List-Managers. Can we please stick to the specific subject Bill brought up, which was a discussion IN GENERAL of lists that are important avenues of professional communication, the responsibilities of ownership/stewardship of such lists, professional oversight for such lists, etc. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 14:13:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA28669; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 14:13:37 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA28660; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 07:13:29 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id HAA02668 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 07:14:45 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id KAA25093; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 10:11:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 10:11:47 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Bill Silvert cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-Reply-To: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Bill, > An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will > eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators. Because > mailing lists make it possible for a single individual to control a > potentially important avenue of communication, there is growing concern > that this control could be abused and could lead to censorship and > unfair restriction on access to information. Ah, somehow I don't quite see it that way. Your argument might work if there were a limited number of "frequencies" that your list could travel over (like in radio or TV broadcasting), or if it cost an exhorbitant amount of money to enter this type of media. Since neither of those things apply to mailing lists there is no case for an abuse of power. Indeed, there is no "power" to abuse! > I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. Well, the implications may have scared *you*, but I don't find them at all disturbing. But, let's continue -- > Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a > young foreign scientist. After a short time we had a falling out and he > moved the list to another site, by simply copying all the addresses. This is a perfectly legitimate way for you to part company. > Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of > other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us As a list administrator, that was certainly his prerogative. A mailing list is not a public service, it is a private club. There is no reason to expect permanent or unlimited service from any list. > (although there was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being > disruptive or otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). While this may be important to you, I do not see that it has any bearing on the situation as you have currently described it. > We now find ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an > increasingly important avenue of communication in our field. That's very unfortunate. You should start your own list. You've already indicated that you have a list of subscribers that is a few months old -- that would be a good place to start. Add to that everyone else who has posted to that list in the last few weeks, and I think you have an excellent place to start. Besides, you could always subscribe again from another account and just keep your mouth shut. Unless this list admin cards every subscriber (and I only know about two lists which do that), then you have no reason to believe you are cut off from this information flow. > I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to > the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a > wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are > frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. That's pretty high-falutin' language, mister. In fact, I have to smile when I read it because it sounds comically extreme. No one ever promised you free and unrestricted access to someone else's computer system (and in the case of a list administrator -- their time). You've forgotten that you were a guest. Unless you actually paid real money for your access -- not imaginary accounting offsets which might *maybe* eventually someday trickle-down to this admin -- you don't have a leg to stand on. For whatever reason, you wore out your welcome and were made to leave. Your attempt to drum up ethical support for a forced re-entrance to a forum where you were an invited guest is, in all honesty, sickening. > Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have > simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to > be a very desirable way to proceed. Why not? (First, lose the notion of "competing"; you'll be setting up a list with "similar focus" or "common interest" but not in competition...) You just dismiss this alternative out of hand -- as though it was something obviously unacceptable or unworkable. Setting up your own list is definitely the best way for you to proceed. Not only will it give you a forum that no one else can take away from you, it will help you learn a thing or two about the trials and tribulations of being a list administrator yourself -- without a "young foreign scientist" to help you out. > Perhaps we need a code of conduct for mailing list administrators, but > how can it be enforced? It can't. And such a "code of conduct" would never be agreed upon anyway. It would also set a bad precedent which would create an entire class of objectors who would run their own systems in defiance... and we would have gotten exactly nowhere. Study the history of USENET for a reminder of how impossible distributed information systems are to control. I think a much greater priority is educating list members about their responsibilities in their role as invited guests, and helping them be good net.citizens rather than spoiled party crashers. David. From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 09:18:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id PAA29268; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 15:32:51 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id IAA29250; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:32:37 -0700 Received: from bonk.io.org (root@bonk.io.org [198.133.36.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id IAA03308 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:34:04 -0700 Received: (from mooseman@localhost) by bonk.io.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA23937; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:31:35 -0400 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:31:34 -0400 (EDT) From: mooseman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #181 In-Reply-To: <199410150810.BAA26171@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am running a list off of a majordomo system and am having trouble getting it to send the replies to the list rather than the sender. I have tried going through the config file and have tried out 4 different newconfigs. What command line do I need to add to have the replies go to the list? \_\_\_____/_/_/ |--------------------------------------------| | mooseman@io.org | ] [ | May the MOOSE be with you! | [_] |--------------------------------------------| From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 10:19:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA29919; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:29:07 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA29910; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 09:28:55 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA04059 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 09:30:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199410151630.JAA04059@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4232; Sat, 15 Oct 94 17:26:59 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 0950; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 17:26:59 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:52:58 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Some people have complained to me in private that I wasn't addressing the general issues in my reply to Bill's message. That's because I didn't find much at all that could be said about the general issue, but, fine, I'm perfectly willing to address it. A mailing list is a computer with access to network resources, both of which generally cost money, plus manpower. While the manpower comes mostly from the list owner, there is usually a technical type managing the computer and its software. In general, the person in question is paid by the organization that owns the computer (or owns the computer himself). So one could say that a mailing list is a certain amount of "resources" (hardware, software, network access, and manpower to run the setup), plus the list owner(s)' time. If the list owner does something which in your opinion is not appropriate, you have three options. If the resources are not owned by the list owner, you can contact the organization owning the resources and ask them if the list owner is abiding by their policy (unless it's a small organization, they probably have a policy for usage of their computers). If that doesn't work, and if the list owner is actually paid to run the mailing list, you can contact his employer and make essentially the same inquiry. Finally, if none of this works, you can try peer pressure. And, of course, you can always start your own list. All steps which, I trust, are fairly obvious. So obvious, in fact, that I don't see the point of bringing them up. In a free country, any individual is free to start a private club or association, and to use his own arbitrary judgment to select the members. There have been many cases historically where such clubs or associations have become major avenues for professional contacts. I can only assume that there have been cases where the owner of a club disliked a particular, otherwise professionally skilled individual, and denied him membership in his club. There's nothing one can do about it. The victim was free to start his own club, if he could afford the expense and had enough time to spare. There has never been a Supreme Council with a mandate to force citizens to allow specific individuals into their private clubs. I don't know about you, but I'd be very bothered if such a council were ever created. You have all the tools and resources necessary to create your own list. If you are persuasive and resourceful enough, I don't see any reason why you would not succeed in creating a second forum to complement the first one, and the community could only benefit from the added diversity. The current forum does not enjoy any particular, "unfair" advantage, such as access to an expensive resource not commonly available. It only enjoys the "fair" advantage of having become a popular, established forum through the hard work of its list owner. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:12:09 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) id QAA08535 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:12:09 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2-b.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA08530 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:12:04 -0700 Received: from localhost by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA09301; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:10:53 -0700 Received: from [192.9.200.100] (don_mac [192.9.200.100]) by ncc1701a.talarian.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00730 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:08 -0700 X-Sender: don@ncc1701a Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:24 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) Subject: How do I automate messages that come to "info" alias? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to set up my "info@mycompany.com" alias so it will automatically do two things: 1) Archive the message to an archive file 2) Mail an automated text reply to the recipient (general info about the company and products, etc.) However, I don't want to have all of the other functionality associated with a list (subscribe/unsubscribe, etc.). Any suggestions? -- _____________________________________________________________________ Don Gray International Sales Director Talarian Corporation 444 Castro Street, Suite 140 e-mail (preferred): don@talarian.com Mountain View, CA 94041 Tel: +1-415-965-9066 x138 (direct) U.S.A. Fax: +1-415-965-9077 _____________________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:19:49 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) id QAA08702 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:19:49 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2-b.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA08695 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:19:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA09197; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:28 -0700 Received: from [192.9.200.100] (don_mac [192.9.200.100]) by ncc1701a.talarian.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00656 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:13 -0700 X-Sender: don@ncc1701a Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) Subject: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from the FAQ: >~Subject: How can I hide lists so they can't be viewed by 'lists'? >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Could you add a 'private_lists' parameter to the config file that would >> prevent people from seeing that the list exists (and from getting the >> description for the list). I think you've given us the ability to lock down >> pretty much everything else. > > >That is what advertise and noadvertise are for. The two keywords take >regular expressions that are matched against the from address of the >sender. A list display follows the rules: > >1) If the from address is on the list, it is shown. What list? > >2) If the from address matches a regexp in noadvertise (e.g. /.*/) the list > is not shown. Where do I put this "regexp in noadvertise"? > >3) If the advertise list is empty, the list is shown unless 2 applies. > >4) If the advertise list is non-empty, the from address must match > an address in advertise. Otherwise the list is not shown. Rule 2 > applies, so you could allow all hosts in umb.edu except hosts in > cs.umb.edu. > I want to set my ADVERTISE list equal to my subscriber list, so only the subscribers can get info about it. How would I do this? -- _____________________________________________________________________ Don Gray International Sales Director Talarian Corporation 444 Castro Street, Suite 140 e-mail (preferred): don@talarian.com Mountain View, CA 94041 Tel: +1-415-965-9066 x138 (direct) U.S.A. Fax: +1-415-965-9077 _____________________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:35:02 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id QAA08938 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:35:02 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA08928; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:34:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199410152334.QAA08928@miles.greatcircle.com> To: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:34:56 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk don@talarian.com (Don Gray) writes: # I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people # from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. # # However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from # the FAQ: This is a Majordomo-specific question. Questions specific to a particular piece of mailing list software should be directed to that software's support list (in this case, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM) NOT to List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 18:34:56 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id SAA00282 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 18:34:56 -0700 Received: from freeside.fc.net (freeside.fc.net [198.6.198.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id SAA00272 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 18:34:48 -0700 Received: (from kevintx@localhost) by freeside.fc.net (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id TAA26018; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 19:52:53 -0500 From: Admin/Support Message-Id: <199410160052.TAA26018@freeside.fc.net> Subject: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? (reply) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 19:52:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: don@talarian.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 815 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll answer your first 2 questions, but majordomo-users@greatcircle.com would probably be the better place for this. > I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people > from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. > > However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from It's in the .config file for that list. Check it out. > >2) If the from address matches a regexp in noadvertise (e.g. /.*/) the list > > is not shown. The default .config file shows: noadvertise << END END If you want to make a hidden group do: noadvertise << END /.*/ END kevin -- kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net (see also kevintx@paranoia.com) Freeside Communications (512) 339-6094 *Internet Access for the Future!* From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 14:24:07 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id OAA05611 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 14:24:07 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA05606 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 14:23:25 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HICQT6LCU8001S4B@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:22:05 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HICQT1PR2800MOAR@AC.DAL.CA>; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:21:59 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA10489; Sun, 16 Oct 94 18:11:42 -0300 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:11:41 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9410162111.AA10489@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2205 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I tried to avoid a flame war by not identifying the list, the host, nor the list administrator, but Eric has chosen to make the matter public. I still would like to avoid a flame war, but there is one point that Eric raises that I would like to reply to: >Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:52:58 +0100 >From: Eric Thomas >Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership > >In a free country, any >individual is free to start a private club or association, and to use his >own arbitrary judgment to select the members. There have been many cases >historically where such clubs or associations have become major avenues >for professional contacts. I can only assume that there have been cases >where the owner of a club disliked a particular, otherwise professionally >skilled individual, and denied him membership in his club. There's >nothing one can do about it. The victim was free to start his own club, This may be true in Sweden, but in N. America (at least in Canada and the USA) the right to fair opportunity takes precedence over the right to discriminate. Women have successfully sued for access to universities and business clubs on the grounds that being kept out restricted their opportunity to compete fairly. Private clubs are no longer permitted to exclude blacks, Jews, etc. in most areas. Although the concept of spearate but equal still survives in some areas, it isn't the responsibility of those discriminated against to create the equal opportunity. The issue I addressed was one of some scientists not having equal opportunity to information channels, in this case one run by a major university. I was not disruptive and have signed (electronically) a pledge to conform to the operating standards of the list (this is part of the subscription procedure, and I have tried several times to resubscribe). Perhaps we should make this a concrete example. Suppose that I got kicked off the list because I was Jewish. Would that be OK? -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 15:26:20 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id PAA06012 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 15:26:20 -0700 Received: from Vela.ACS.Oakland.Edu (eabyrnes@vela.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA06007 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 15:26:15 -0700 Received: by Vela.ACS.Oakland.Edu id AA05354 (5.67a+/IDA-1.5); Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:25:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Byrnes Subject: Oh no! New guy questions! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List-Managers, I apologize for asking a newbie question but I've hunted around ftp.greatcircle.com and I've had no luck finding the FAQ's! I hope they are not embeded in the digests. I'm brand new to this and wish to start a list at our site. I've been told by admin that it will be no problem but that is all I've been told and I need a place to start. Thanks three million. Ed Byrnes eabyrnes@vela.acs.oakland.edu Rochester, Michigan, North America From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 16:42:20 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id QAA06486 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 16:42:20 -0700 Received: from bosnia.pop.psu.edu (root@bosnia.pop.psu.edu [146.186.111.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA06481 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 16:42:15 -0700 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by bosnia.pop.psu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA02646; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:05:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199410162305.TAA02646@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> To: mooseman cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #181 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:31:34 EDT." X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 19:05:47 -0400 From: David Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , mooseman wri tes: >I am running a list off of a majordomo system and am having trouble >getting it to send the replies to the list rather than the sender. First off, decide if you really want to do this. The first thing I notice when I get added to a list managed by "another" mailing list is that my replies are forced to the list. If I _want_ to send a personal reply to someone I have to go out of my way and _edit the headers of my message_ in order to do it. Most every mail agent has two "reply" functions, one to do a reply to the sender of a message, and one to do a "group" reply. Teach your readers to know the difference, and use the right one in the right situation. Forcing everyone to reply to the list is most annoying and potentially very very embarrassing. I can't count how many times I've gotten messages (again managed by that "other" mailing list package) that were clearly intended as personal replies (often having nothing to do with the list, the person just happened to see their name go by and that reminded them that they needed to tell them something). This is discussed a little in the Majordomo FAQ. You need to use the reply_to keyword and put in the e-mail address of the list. You can get the Majordomo FAQ by sending an e-mail message to majordomo@pop.psu.edu with "get file majordomo-faq" in the body of the message. You can get an HTML version on the World Wide Web at http://www.pop.psu.edu/~barr/majordomo-faq.html. --Dave From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 17:09:05 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id RAA06647 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:09:05 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id RAA06642 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:08:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199410170008.RAA06642@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5391; Mon, 17 Oct 94 01:05:34 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 8665; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 01:05:34 +0100 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 00:45:33 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:11:41 -0300 (ADT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:11:41 -0300 (ADT) Bill Silvert said: >This may be true in Sweden, but in N. America (at least in Canada and >the USA) the right to fair opportunity takes precedence over the right >to discriminate. Women have successfully sued for access to universities >and business clubs on the grounds that being kept out restricted their >opportunity to compete fairly. Private clubs are no longer permitted to >exclude blacks, Jews, etc. (...) Perhaps we should make this a concrete >example. Suppose that I got kicked off the list because I was Jewish. >Would that be OK? Actually, in Sweden the right of ethnic groups not to be discriminated against takes precedence over even freedom of speech. It is unlawful and in fact a serious offense to hold speeches that are threatening to, say, blacks. Now, Bill, this isn't usenet. You weren't kicked off the list because you're Jewish, but because the list owner thinks you are a jerk. Whether or not this is true is another matter, up to his personal judgment. The list in question never prevented blacks, Jews or women from joining. The difference between being black and being a jerk is that you're born black and can't do much about it. You were given your fair opportunity and, in the list owner's opinion, wore out your welcome. To tell you the truth, Bill, if you subscribed to one of my lists and insinuated that I am racist or nazi every time I kick someone off, I would give you the boot in no time :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 17:18:39 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id RAA06693 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:18:39 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA06688 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:18:34 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id UAA13147; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:15:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 20:15:51 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Bill Silvert cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9410162111.AA10489@biome.bio.ns.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello Again Bill, > This may be true in Sweden, but in N. America (at least in Canada and > the USA) the right to fair opportunity takes precedence over the right to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > discriminate. You're right, but you also seem to have forgotten what equal *opportunity* means. It means you can start your own list, and no one can stop you. It means that neither list receives any public support -- or both lists receive the same. Things like that. You are not guaranteed equality of reward, or of success, or of anything of the sort. You get to start at the same place and succeed on your merits from there. Nothing more; nothing less. > Private clubs are no longer permitted to exclude blacks, Jews, etc. in > most areas. You'll want to do some more research into this example before you trumpet it too loudly. Private clubs in this country can still to any lawful thing they want. Many have succumbed to political and economic pressures to open up, but they are not compelled by law to do so in the United States. Your experiences in Canada may be different. > Suppose that I got kicked off the list because I was Jewish. Would that > be OK? Interesting hypothetical, and only meaningful if you could convince a judge that an electronic mailing list was a public accomodation. I wonder if you could prove it. Probably only if there was a clear pattern of discrimination against Jewish people. Fat chance of finding that. David. From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 23:41:32 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id XAA08838 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 23:41:32 -0700 Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id XAA08833 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 23:41:24 -0700 Received: from glock.ramp.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQxlyw15221; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 02:40:40 -0400 Received: (from sharokh@localhost) by glock.ramp.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id FAA16348; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:40:59 GMT Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 23:40:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Sharokh Subject: list abusers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi there, I've setup some lists on majordomo 1.92. I've read the documentations and the FAQ, but I was concerened about this matter and I was hopping if someone out there who had similar experience and how you have handled the situation. Assuming some user outther is abusing your list. You decided to take them off your list manually. I will make an example out of this. We will call this person: john@great.city.com What if 'john' changes his account to 'johnny@great.city.com', and he re-subscribes to your list and abuse it. How can you prevent his site from subscribing? Later john knows you have banned his site from subscribing, he uses another way to abuse your list. As some of you away, SLIP users can change their login and address to anything they want. Since we know john is coming from 'great.city.com', he somehow hacked his email header and has changed it to: badboy@bad.place.edu' This way he can subscribe again. Does majordomo still can prevent him from subscribing reading the X-sender header that he is coming from 'great.city.com'? At this point, 'john' has failed the steps above. Assuming he knows 'sandy' a subscriber in your list. He also knows she is: 'sandy@somewhere.com' So John hacks his email head to: 'sandy@somewhere.com' and sends junks to your list just to abuse it? Again does majordomo can prevent him from using some subscriber's login@host to post? I just wonder if anyone outthere has came cross these type of situations, because I have seen similar situations in other mailing-lists, and due to lack of poor security, the mailing-liist owner had to shut down the list. Therefore I am curious about how good the majordomo's security is for list managers out there. Thank you -sharokh From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 05:53:14 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id FAA11639 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:53:14 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA11634 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:53:01 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIDNABQVOG001WKE@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:52:09 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIDNA62I0W00JNKR@AC.DAL.CA>; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:52:03 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE id AA15521; Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:41:45 -0300 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:41:44 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Do Jerks have rights? (was: List Ownership) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE Message-id: <9410171241.AA15521@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2487 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas writes: >Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 00:45:33 +0100 >From: Eric Thomas >Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership (fwd) > >Now, Bill, this isn't usenet. You weren't kicked off the list because >you're Jewish, but because the list owner thinks you are a jerk. Whether >or not this is true is another matter, up to his personal judgment. The >list in question never prevented blacks, Jews or women from joining. The >difference between being black and being a jerk is that you're born black >and can't do much about it. You were given your fair opportunity and, in >the list owner's opinion, wore out your welcome. To tell you the truth, >Bill, if you subscribed to one of my lists and insinuated that I am >racist or nazi every time I kick someone off, I would give you the boot >in no time :-) Quite a subtle point here. Lots of people think that blacks, Jews, women and other groups have inferior character or intelligence. Is this grounds for discrimination? After all, whether the list owner thinks that those of us who disagree with him are jerks is quite separate from whether we have acted like jerks, since the people who have been kicked off the list (and there were quite a few, judging from mail I've been receiving) have not in general been disruptive or interfered with the operation of the list. In fact, joining this particular list requires signing what is basically a loyalty oath, which I have done. And just to clarify a point of confusion, I wasn't implying that I was kicked off the list because I'm Jewish. I simply wanted to focus on the idea that list owners have absolute power to discriminate on any basis they choose. I don't think that they should have that power. A related point that keeps coming up is about the complete freedom that list owners have. My lists (I run around 30) sit on a computer owned by the government of Canada, and I feel that for me to run the list in a way inconsistent with government policy would be improper. Do other list managers feel constrained by policies of the owners of their host machines? For example, I believe that SEARN is a university computer -- does that in any way impinge on the rights of list managers to do anything they want? Bill -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 05:56:12 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id FAA11698 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:56:12 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA11693 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 05:56:05 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id IAA17348; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 08:53:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 08:53:10 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Sharokh cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list abusers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Sharokh, > I've setup some lists on majordomo 1.92. I've read the documentations > and the FAQ, but I was concerened about this matter and I was hopping if > someone out there who had similar experience and how you have handled the > situation. What interesting questions! These issues are certainly not confined to majordomo, either... While I've never had any problems with one of my lists quite as severe as the ones you've outlined, I've had lists which were willfully disrupted and it isn't any fun. > What if 'john' changes his account to 'johnny@great.city.com', and he > re-subscribes to your list and abuse it. How can you prevent his > site from subscribing? > > [SLIP hostname example sacrificed] Well, you could always move to a list where all subscriptions had to be approved. There are a lot of technological solutions to your problem, but I think some old-fashioned human intervention would be the fastest and surest route through this problem. > So John hacks his email head to: 'sandy@somewhere.com' and sends junks > to your list just to abuse it? Again does majordomo can prevent him from > using some subscriber's login@host to post? Now this one is a lot tougher, since security is absent from SMTP. I'm afraid both you and Sandy are probably out of luck for technological solutions. However, there is again a human-intervention solution which will do nicely: moderate the list. You will probably only have to moderate it for a short time, just a few weeks until the abuser goes away. Especially if this person's access to your list has been completely blocked. Without any feedback -- positive or negative -- most of your harassers will go away all by themselves. David. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 07:04:08 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id HAA13064 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:04:08 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA13054 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:03:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 10:03:04 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: [olumide@adsznet.com: $$$ Internet Card] Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9410171003.aa12529@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk s.merchant wrote: >Kjetil Torgrim Homme says: >>Hello, I received this on one of the mailing lists I maintain > ... >>Has anyone else seen this? I returned his favour and gave him a >>sample... > >Yes, I got this Internet Card "spam" too (though it was sent to the >wrong address and only reached me and not my whole list). > >If you read the headers carefully, you notice that the organization >"Automated Data Sciences," which probably makes and markets this card, >has a UUCP connection via holonet.net. In other words, if you want to >send a complaint to a postmaster somewhere, postmaster@adsznet.com >probably won't be very effective, since adsznet.com appears to be the >domain for the offending organization. However, someone at holonet.net >may be a good place to send a complaint to, since they apparently are >providing Internet connectivity for adsznet.com. (But I'd make the >message to holonet.net somewhat more polite, since they are 1 or 2 >steps removed from the offender.) Actually, you can go ahead and send to postmaster@adsznet.com. It goes to postmaster@holonet... Grok this: 220-guardian.holonet.net Sendmail 8.6.9/Ultrix3.0-C ready at Mon, 17 Oct 1994 06:53:29 -0700 220 ESMTP spoken here vrfy postmaster@adsznet.com 250 Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 07:19:40 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id HAA13282 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:19:40 -0700 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA13275 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:19:26 -0700 Received: from dialup-2-157.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:09:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:14:31 CST From: "Fred H Olson WB0YQM" Message-Id: <46957.fholson@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_17A Reply-To: X-POPMail-Charset: English To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: list abusers and the current abuser: OLUMIDE@ADSZNET.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With the current state of software a determined and knowledgeable abuser can continue to harass an open list in one way or another such as in the ways you suggest. By becoming a private list that requires a human to make or approve subscriptions the possibilities are reduced but large private lists greatly increase list manager related duties... But the type of ongoing abuse you describe that the abuse has escalated out of control. Efforts to prevent such escalation should be taken when the abuse starts. The abuser should be offered absolution and welcomed back to the list IF THEY MEND THEIR WAYS. "Public opinion" and "peer pressure" should be invoked tactfully to persuade the abuser to discontinue their abuse. In recent months there has been a situation on the list Quaker-L that might offer some lessons on dealing with abusers. The Quaker traditions of group processes leads me to be curious about the recent situation on Quaker-L. (I -Fred- am an "index mode" subscriber to Quaker-L but I did not follow the abuse situation tho I was aware of it.) Can anyone post observations about this incident? Another recent abuse situation is OLUMIDE@ADSZNET.COM sending UNSOLICITED ads for a $10 reference card to mailing lists. It's been mentioned here by kjetilho@ifi.uio.no who was hit by it earlier. It hit the list I manage this morning! Below is a copy of my response which tries to implement my suggestions above. Fred H. Olson (.sig at end) ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Fred H Olson WB0YQM To: OLUMIDE@ADSZNET.COM Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 05:52:09 CST Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: $$$ Internet Card Thank you for your recent message quoted below; BUT NOT FOR YOUR REASON FOR SENDING IT!!! You have helped me decide to retain our list's policy of requiring messages to the list to come from subscribers. This policy makes it more difficult for INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES LIKE YOURS from being posted. NOte that we do have a policy regarding what type of advertising is appropriate on our list and YOURS IS DEFINITELY NOT APPROPRIATE. To discourage inappropriate ads, our policy notes that inappropriate ads can be counter productive. THat is many of us would decide not to purchase the item that we might otherwise buy BECAUSE OF INAPROPRIATE ads placed for that product. THe backfire phenomenon! Before your message came today, I had already heard of it -- discussed in very disapproving terms on a list for list owners. You've definitely triggered the backfire phenomenon. I suggest that unless you distribute a very convincing apology and pledge never to engage in this sort of thing again and urge others not to; you might as well for get marketing your product on the net. (Tho I admit the perverse nature of advertising might make it sell for a while. But I suspect it would be forever be equated with MUD in the minds of many net activist.) Fred H. Olson (.sig at end) ************ Fred's response to OLUMIDE@ADSZNET.COM ************* On Mon, 17 Oct 94 02:20 CDT, cohousing-l@uci.com wrote: > >Rejected message: sent to cohousing-l@uci.com by OLUMIDE@ADSZNET.COM follows. >Reason for rejection: sender not subscribed. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >$$$$WWW - This is an unsolicited mail. Please you do not have tomread >it. Thanks. > > >We market a quick reference Internet Card. If you are interested please >send your name and mailing address PLUS your Internet Address and a $10 >fee to: > >Internet Card >P.O.Box 1825 >Woodbridge, VA 22193 > > >Thanks. > >Oolumide Ola > > -- Fred H. Olson fholson@uci.com (612)588-9532 Amateur radio: WB0YQM 1221 Russell Av N, Minneapolis, MN 55411 | Twin Cities Freenet | Sysop of COHOUSING-L listserv & gopherspace: | (under development) | gopher.uci.com or via EDIN gopher in Calif | info on request |47L From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 07:20:02 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id HAA13309 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:20:02 -0700 Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (root@maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA13303 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 07:19:50 -0700 Received: from dialup-2-157.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:09:44 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 09:15:13 CST From: "Fred H Olson WB0YQM" Message-Id: <46994.fholson@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_17A Reply-To: X-POPMail-Charset: English To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I generally agree with the responses which I would summarize as: List "owners" are entitled to administer "their" lists in whatever fashion they wish. Dissatisfied subscribers have the option of 1) discussing their disatisfaction in whatever forumns are willing to host such discussion. (Note that they risk having other subscribers side with the "owner". If their points are sufficiently valid presumably informed subscribers will support them.) 2) appeal to sponsoring org or hardware supplier 3) going elsewhere 4) starting their own alternate discussion To date this discussion has not gotten too close to a "flaming" in my opinion. Vigorous debate is sometimes confused with "flaming". I have found some minor points made by those with whom I generally agree to be questionable but dont choose to rebut them. There's been a bit of a tone of "dumping" on the original poster a bit more than I think is justified based on the facts as presented over the list. On the question of the appropriateness of discussion of specifics, I think some discussion of specifics is in order. Otherwise the discussion is not grounded in reality. But too much discussion might easily tax my reading time budget... While I recognise the right of "list owner's" right to administer "their" lists in whatever fashion they wish, that does not mean they must retain all that perogative. Some of us would like "our" lists to be "owned by" the subscribers to the degree possible. That is for them to: 1) feel a "stake" in the list's administration and direction 2) some input into that direction and incentive to make suggestions and comments etc. 3) To the degree possible some "democratic" procedures for list administration. For "my" list I have discussed (off list with some active subscribers) the possibility of an advisor board to consider such questions. I occasionally ask for input from subscribers (I do try to keep administrative discussions on the list to a low level of frequency.) The list Left-L ("Building a Democratic Left Movement") has been experimenting with a simple voting procedure on some questions including expulsion of abusers. Votes are taken from subscribers for a finite period (4 days ?) after a formal announcement over the list. Fred H. Olson -- Fred H. Olson fholson@uci.com (612)588-9532 Amateur radio: WB0YQM 1221 Russell Av N, Minneapolis, MN 55411 | Twin Cities Freenet | Sysop of COHOUSING-L listserv & gopherspace: | (under development) | gopher.uci.com or via EDIN gopher in Calif | info on request |47L From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 15:15:33 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA00488 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:22:30 -0700 Received: from vacuum.org (vacuum.org [198.242.216.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA00483 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:22:25 -0700 Received: from auger by vacuum.org (5.0/SOLARIS-V1.0-American Vacuum Society) id AA03655; Mon, 17 Oct 94 16:41:31 EDT Message-Id: <9410172041.AA03655@vacuum.org> X-Sender: carlos@torr Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:40:34 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: carlos@vacuum.org (Carlos Toro) Subject: Size of Internet Connection Cc: m-slade@vacuum.org X-Mailer: content-length: 0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have recently been offered to switch my Internet service to a different provider at significant cost savings. Even if I upgrade my level of service, from 56Kbps to 128Kbps, I'll be saving money. The question is, do I need the 128K service? I just installed MD 1.92 on a Sun (with a little help from my majordomo-users friends). I will soon offer the mailing list service to the 6000 members of my society, so at this time I'm not sure what kind of traffic to anticipate. But my impression is that even if a large percentage of the membership use MD the 128K level is overkill, suited perhaps more to a World-Wide-Web-level of service. (Actually, I probably will be setting up a home page in the future, but perhaps not until there is greater WWW usage among our membership.) Are there any rules of thumb relating number of subscribers and recommended level of Internet service? Thanks in advance. Carlos From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 15:20:51 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA00657 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:34:17 -0700 Received: from ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (ptolemy-fddi1.arc.nasa.gov [128.102.113.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA00652 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 14:34:11 -0700 Received: from muir.arc.nasa.gov by ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/) id for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Mon, 17 Oct 94 14:33:38 PDT Received: by muir.arc.nasa.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09014; Mon, 17 Oct 94 14:33:38 PDT Date: Mon, 17 Oct 94 14:33:38 PDT Message-Id: <9410172133.AA09014@muir.arc.nasa.gov> From: k p c To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: being kicked off a list unfairly In-Reply-To: <199410170800.BAA09204@miles.greatcircle.com> References: <199410170800.BAA09204@miles.greatcircle.com> Reply-To: kpc@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov X-Disclaimer: No organization, company, or government is represented here. X-Attribution: kpc Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I won't enter this argument, but I will make a point about its tone in the hope of making it more productive. Wrote a participant (doesn't matter who) on October 17: > Bill, if you subscribed to one of my lists and insinuated that I am > racist or nazi every time I kick someone off, I would give you the boot > in no time :-) The post contained a reductio or an illustration, not an insinuation. He said: "Perhaps we should make this a concrete example. Suppose that I got kicked off the list because I was Jewish. Would that be OK?". Whether this person did so or not, it is possible for one to say that abuse of moderator's position is a problem worth talking about and, without contradicting oneself, simultaneously be a staunch defender of free speech and a staunch advocate of creating competing lists. Complaining about an unfair act of censorship should not necessarily invite stock, endless arguments against litigiousness and hypersensitivity. Ideally, it invites discussion of academic reputation, concentration of power in academia, and other relevant topics that don't get much press but affect mailing list management. I'm not interested in whether this particular case was censorship or litigiousness, but in us having a productive discussion about the general issue. Let's talk about abuse of moderators' position, especially on scientific and philosophical lists, and especially when the person whose post was rejected or who was kicked off had that happen because the moderator disagreed with his viewpoint. Let's take traditional net values (pro-free-speech, anti-censorship, pro-competing-fora) as a given and develop the thread from there. Surely there are things people can say without leading us into known net thread morasses. From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 17:18:09 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA02235 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:48:58 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA02226; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:48:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199410172348.QAA02226@miles.greatcircle.com> To: David Casti cc: Bill Silvert , List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 15 Oct 1994 10:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:48:21 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Casti writes: # Hi Bill, # # > An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will # > eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators. Because # > mailing lists make it possible for a single individual to control a # > potentially important avenue of communication, there is growing concern # > that this control could be abused and could lead to censorship and # > unfair restriction on access to information. # # Ah, somehow I don't quite see it that way. Your argument might work if # there were a limited number of "frequencies" that your list could travel # over (like in radio or TV broadcasting), or if it cost an exhorbitant # amount of money to enter this type of media. Since neither of those # things apply to mailing lists there is no case for an abuse of power. # Indeed, there is no "power" to abuse! I don't see it this way. Certainly, someone can always go out and set up their own list. Part of the value of a list, though, is who its subscribers and (more importantly) contributors are. People generally don't subscribe (heck, they usually don't even _know_ about) every possible list related to their interests. They subscribe to a few lists that they've found to be useful. Why did they find them to be useful? Because of the quality or relevance to their interests of the information posted there. How do you increase quality and relevance? By having good contributors. How do you get good contributors? By increasing quality and relevance. It's very definitely a bootstrapping problem. If all someone wants is a soapbox, then they can certainly set up their own list and orate to their heart's content. If, on the other hand, they want to take part in profession (or recreational, or whatever) discourse on some topic, they need access to the forums where that topic is discussed. In such circumstances, setting up your own list doesn't help, because nobody is listening. # > Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of # > other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us # # As a list administrator, that was certainly his prerogative. A mailing # list is not a public service, it is a private club. There is no reason # to expect permanent or unlimited service from any list. I don't think this holds up. Many (most?) mailing lists are private clubs. But some (many?) are, in effect, important forums for scholarly discourse on professional topics. In many fields, these forums are just as important (and often more important!) for professional growth and advancement than any conference, workshop, or campus. I'm not saying that someone can't or shouldn't be denied access for good reasons; I'm saying that, for some lists, it's not something to be done lightly. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 17 17:49:22 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA03082 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:36:22 -0700 Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id RAA03077 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:36:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199410180036.RAA03077@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 20:34:40 EDT Subject: Re: Do Jerks have rights? (was: List Ownership) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > A related point that keeps coming up is about the complete freedom that > list owners have. My lists (I run around 30) sit on a computer owned by > the government of Canada, and I feel that for me to run the list in a > way inconsistent with government policy would be improper. Do other > list managers feel constrained by policies of the owners of their host > machines? For example, I believe that SEARN is a university computer -- > does that in any way impinge on the rights of list managers to do > anything they want? The list owner's freedom is subject to the policies of the owner of the list server machine. Our LISTSERV machine is owned by the US Government. We do not set up lists that don't have some relationship to our mission. That's interpreted fairly liberally. For example, we host some product specific lists for computer products that we use. But we will not host lists on recreational topics, politics, or other things not part of our mission. We are not a university, so things appropriate for universities may be inappropriate for us. If a case were brought to our attention, we would take a dim view of discrimination based on race, religion, or sex on a list based on our machine. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 4265 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Postmaster for CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, NIH3PLUS List owner for PCIP, SNSTCP-L, and TN3270E, all @LIST.NIH.GOV From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 04:17:52 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA09569 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 04:11:43 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA09564; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 04:11:36 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id HAA27935; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:08:56 -0400 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Brent Chapman cc: Bill Silvert , List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-Reply-To: <199410172348.QAA02226@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Brent, > Because of the quality or relevance to their interests of the > information posted there. How do you increase quality and relevance? > By having good contributors. How do you get good contributors? By > increasing quality and relevance. It's very definitely a > bootstrapping problem. I agree that it is a bootstrapping problem. However, it is clearly one that can be overcome with a little perseverence, since all lists start out this way. > I don't think this holds up. Many (most?) mailing lists are private > clubs. But some (many?) are, in effect, important forums for > scholarly discourse on professional topics. I don't see those two as mutually exclusive. Scholarly discourse in a private setting is entirely acceptable, and encouraged. Just because you are having an academic conversation -- even one of great importance -- does not *entitle* anyone to participate or even listen in, except by invitation. > I'm not saying that someone can't or shouldn't be denied access for > good reasons; I'm saying that, for some lists, it's not something to > be done lightly. I tend to agree. However, I also think that the only workable and reasonable approach is for the list administrator to be the one making these decisions. David. From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 06:47:44 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA10390 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 06:27:00 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA10384 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 06:26:54 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIF2RNDQW00020PG@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:26:01 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIF2RESPJK00EG4X@AC.DAL.CA>; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:25:52 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@greatcircle.com id AA25028; Tue, 18 Oct 94 10:26:07 -0300 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:26:07 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-reply-to: from "David Casti" at Oct 18, 94 07:08:54 am To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9410181326.AA25028@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1999 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Following up on this theme: >> I don't think this holds up. Many (most?) mailing lists are private >> clubs. But some (many?) are, in effect, important forums for >> scholarly discourse on professional topics. > >I don't see those two as mutually exclusive. Scholarly discourse in a >private setting is entirely acceptable, and encouraged. Just because you >are having an academic conversation -- even one of great importance -- does >not *entitle* anyone to participate or even listen in, except by invitation. I agree with this, but I think that the setting has to be stated so that all participants know the rules of the game. If one sets up an open forum and then changes the rules partway through the game, it is unfair to all parties concerned. I think subscribers have a right to know how a list operates.* A concrete suggestion that other list managers want to consider: many of the lists I run are paired between open and closed lists. The open lists are completely free and unmoderated (other than the usual administrative control of bounces and like problems), the closed lists are for the exchange of proprietary and other sensitive information. For example, general issues of habitat ecology vs. specific problems. Bill Silvert *I don't want to make a flame war out of this, and I have avoided reference to the specific list, but the following quote from the list administrator (in which I have concealed the name of the list) may amuse some of you: >What I intended when I proposed was an open academic >forum with NO INTERFERENCE whatsoever from neither the Systems Man >nor the List Owner. The task of a List Owner should be to stimulate >the academic discussion not to chase people. I certainly have no problem with this statement! -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 08:23:50 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA11172 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:07:06 -0700 Received: from bernco.gov (PLUTO.BERNCO.GOV [160.230.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA11166 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:06:51 -0700 Received: from bart by bernco.gov (5.65/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26074; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:09:59 -0600 Received: by bart.bernco.gov (5.51/6.2); Tue, 18 Oct 94 09:09:52 MDT Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 09:09:52 MDT From: Chris Wayne Message-Id: <9410181509.AA12644@bart.bernco.gov> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Good Morning Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, My Name is Chris Wayne. I am an RSA of a small, county government machine. It is my wish to start a listserv of some sort (at least until the county decides to install WWW). I've been on this list a couple of weeks now, but I haven't seen any really useful info. I have no USENET access and I've seen mention of ftp.greatcircle.com, but we're a poor site, my machine can't handle domain name resolution - just IP numbers :-). What I think I'm picking up from this list, is that there are several different types of listservers out there, but the most common is MajorDomo. I can't say that I know all there is to know about listservers, except that they are used to maintain maillists and a way to retrieve files. I am looking for a listserver that at least does both. If there are other functions of a listserver, I'd be interested to hear about them. I run a SysV operating system, so I would need to know where I can get a listserver for my machine. If you do reply to me, please Email me at: jdchris@bart.bernco.gov. Please note that addresses coming in and going out to/from this site get mangled. You can't rely on auto-reply and you'll need to include your address in your letter or I won't know who you are. I got one of our system programers working on fixing the problem. He's been telling me that he'll have it fixed soon, it's been several weeks now :-S thanks, chris jdchris@bart.bernco.com From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 08:51:28 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA11432 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:44:29 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA11427 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:44:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 11:43:51 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9410181143.aa03946@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Silvert: >>What I intended when I proposed was an open academic >>forum with NO INTERFERENCE whatsoever from neither the Systems Man >>nor the List Owner. The task of a List Owner should be to stimulate >>the academic discussion not to chase people. This is my point of view as well. I run (as you can see from this address) several mailing lists, all of which are professional in nature - which is to say that they are for users (or wannabe users, I don't care) of a number of software products. In ALL cases, I have done the work to get the list up and running and so forth. In ALL cases, I am the "List Maintainer". NOT the "List Owner." I've never kicked anyone off and in the nearly 5 years this list has been alive, I've only killed one msg (a blatant advert - note the domain I'm in). And even in that case, all I did was trash the msg (to those addresses it hadn't already been delivered to) and flambe the heck out of the sender privately. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 09:52:29 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA11744 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:26:24 -0700 Received: from bernco.gov (PLUTO.BERNCO.GOV [160.230.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA11739 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:25:57 -0700 Received: from bart by bernco.gov (5.65/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA26643; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 10:29:21 -0600 Received: by bart.bernco.gov (5.51/6.2); Tue, 18 Oct 94 10:29:12 MDT Date: Tue, 18 Oct 94 10:29:12 MDT From: Chris Wayne Message-Id: <9410181629.AA13410@bart.bernco.gov> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Good Morning - opps! Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how or why I do not know, but I gave the wrong address. it is: jdchris@bart.bernco.gov (not .com) thanks, chris From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 18 10:30:04 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA11867 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:46:57 -0700 Received: from lax.PE-Nelson.COM (lax.PE-Nelson.COM [192.52.153.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA11862 for ; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:46:52 -0700 From: MIKEB@HENDRX.PE-Nelson.COM Received: by lax.PE-Nelson.COM (5.65c/IDA/PE-Nelson) id AA23044; Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:45:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:45:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199410181645.AA23044@lax.PE-Nelson.COM> Received: by DniMail (v7.0); Tue, 18 Oct 94 09:45:36 PDT To: lax::list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk INFO From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 07:47:15 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA23610 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 07:46:26 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA23599 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 07:46:03 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIGJRPKQV40026C3@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:44:06 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIGJREGII800NPYM@AC.DAL.CA>; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:43:49 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA05505; Wed, 19 Oct 94 11:43:53 -0300 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:43:52 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: List Owners' Rights: Summary To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9410191443.AA05505@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2559 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The discussion of the rights of list owners and users that I started last week seems to have ebbed, and since many of the responses were sent to me personally I thought I would post a summary of what I heard. Members of this list seem divided on whether list managers have absolute control over their lists, or whether there should be some recognition of user rights. One school of thought argues that a list is like a business or private club, and that the owner has absolute control over who subscribes. I tried to focus on the rights issue by asking what would be the case if the owner kicked off a subscriber for racist or similarly bigoted reasons, and some writers acknowledged that in such a case the rights of the owners would probably have to yield to broader policy issues, such as legal concerns (some people interpreted this question as an insinuation that I have been the victim of racism myself, so let me clearly state that I have never encountered discrimination on the basis of race, creed, colour, sex, or any other such factor in access to mailing lists or any other Internet service). I find it interesting that even though much of the traffic on this list deals with users who don't understand how to USE this list, many people took the position that anyone who doesn't like the administration of a particular list should set up his or her own list, which in my opinion is not a trivial task for most of our subscribers. Other correspondents feel that lists should be viewed as a public service (at least open lists should), and that subscribers should be removed only for defensible cause. Since most of the holders of this point of view sent their comments to the list, I won't repeat their arguments here. Toward the end of the discussion some attention was focussed on the policies of institutions which own host machines. I know that some institutions have policies on who can use their other facilities -- for example, if I rent a room for a meeting I have to sign a form that the meeting will not violate policies on racism and discrimination -- and it may be appropriate for institutions to set similar policies for how mailing lists and other kinds of servers are used. From the comments I received it appears that quite a few system administrators follow such a practice, but on their own initiative. -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 08:51:23 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA23839 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:18:50 -0700 Received: from enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca (enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA23834 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:18:44 -0700 Received: from localhost by enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <606473>; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:17:49 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:43:51 -0400". <9410181143.aa03946@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:17:45 -0400 From: "C. Harald Koch" Message-Id: <94Oct19.111749edt.606473@enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In ALL cases, I am the "List Maintainer". NOT the "List Owner." This is a very important distinction, which seems to be lost on many people out there on the 'net. There are "control freaks" and "empire builders" lurking inside of all of us... I think a very good analogy is that list managers are "chairpersons"; their job is to facilitate calm, rational discussion, maintain order, and so on. The role of a chair is not to control a discussion. Make sure the discussion doesn't stray too far off topic; make sure everyone has their fair say; make sure that people remain (relatively) calm and rational. A chairperson can still have someone removed from the meeting if said person is being disruptive. However, the chair must strongly resist the urge to have someone removed 'merely' for voicing a dissenting opinion. -- C. Harald Koch | University of Toronto Computing & Communications harald@canet.ca | Network & Operations Services +1 416 978 0992 (voice) | External Network Facilities Managment +1 416 978 6620 (fax) | 4 Bancroft Ave., Rm 101, Toronto, ON M5S 1C1 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 11:47:54 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA25626 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:38:49 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA25619 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:38:20 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id LAA05384; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:34:16 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA18892; Wed, 19 Oct 94 11:17:54 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410191817.AA18892@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2574 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk C.H. Koch wrote: > > In ALL cases, I am the "List Maintainer". NOT the "List Owner." > > This is a very important distinction, which seems to be lost on many people > out there on the 'net. There are "control freaks" and "empire builders" > lurking inside of all of us... > > I think a very good analogy is that list managers are "chairpersons"; their This discussion seems to have taken the track that there is some standard that universally applies to anyone who sets up a mailing list on the Internet. Where did this notion come from, anyway? The role of the "List Owner," or the "List Maintainer," or the "List Despot," is whatever that person's contract is between that person and each "subscriber" ("member," "disciple," whatever) individually. Question: What was the contract that was made between the subscriber and the person running the list? Was it to follow the rules of the charter? Or was anything said at all? It sounds as if all this yakyak going on with this subject is that there were a couple of cases that the understanding of the contract (which was not written down, or insufficently codified) between one individual as a subscriber and one individual as a list owner was different. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but I know that pretty much all over the world there are implied contracts applied to standard relationships. For example, you go to the dentist, there are standard rules of conduct and business that are assumed to be in force and effect. There are no such standards for e-mail mailing list providers, because they have not been around long enough to establish credible precedents. I am sure that eventually there will be, if legislation gets passed or lawsuits get settled. So as a list owner, if you are "owning" a list that is of some importance, you should take steps to protect yourself from having to spend money on litigation as a test case. Put it in writing what the rules of your list are, make sure each subscriber gets a copy and send back a receipt, then follow the rules. If the rules are basically oink-oink-what-i-say-goes that's OK. Otherwise, I can well imagine that the concept of "emminent (sp?) domain" could apply. Regards, >From an unwilling participant of some legal disputes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 11:53:51 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA25562 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:30:14 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA25554 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 11:29:56 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig2.att.att.com id AA22606; Wed, 19 Oct 94 14:26:48 EDT Message-Id: <9410191826.AA22606@ig2.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 19 Oct 1994 13:47 EDT Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-Reply-To: <94Oct19.111749edt.606473@enfm.utcc.utoronto.ca> References: Your message of "Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:43:51 -0400". <9410181143.aa03946@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "C. Harald Koch" says: >I think a very good analogy is that list managers are "chairpersons"; their >job is to facilitate calm, rational discussion, maintain order, and so on. >The role of a chair is not to control a discussion. Make sure the discussion Permit me to make another anology--that of a small organization of people, usually non-profit, who share a common interest, hobby, profession, whatever. (Much similarity in scope of many mailing lists, actually.) Special interest clubs, service clubs, professional societies, etc., are what I'm thinking about. These organizations are usually governed by a Constitution and Bylaws. Often, there are Rules of Order too, which are, more often than not, Roberts' Rules of Order. The Constitution is a broad statement of the purpose of the organization, and may have some general statements about membership, etc. The mailing list analogy could be the charter or statement of purpose of the list, which is typically made up by the list creator. It could, but rarely does, change very often. The Bylaws are a set of binding rules about membership, voting, activities, privileges, responsibilities and obligations of members, etc. The analogy may need to be stretched a little here, but I see at least two "components" to this in mailing list terms: - A set of binding rules usually created by the list creator, but often modified during the existence of the list to reflect new needs. E.g., moderated vs. not, moderation procedures, admission rules in the case of closed lists, etc. Could also include rules on what postings are permitted and what are not, for some lists. - A set of rules imposed on the list by the host organization, which the list provider and list members must conform to. E.g., equal access policies, non-discrimination rules, rules on commercial activities, etc. I think the *scope* of the first two are pretty well understood, even though the details of it may not be because few list providers actually bother to (or need to, for that matter) document these comprehensively. What's missing, though, and what it seems is being asked for is the mailing list anology to the Rules of Order. As some of you may know, Roberts' Rules of Order provide a set of rules for _How to Run a [Democratic] Meeting_ for such organizations (and nothing more). (Many of the rules are similar to the way meetings of Parliament or Congress are run.) They define the role of the Chairman, the way questions and motions are presented, discussed, and voted upon, etc. Their objective is, among other things, (a) to preserve the voice of the minority while allowing the will of the majority (b) placing the Chairman in a position of being unbiased and neutral while yet giving him or her the authority and power to deal with a truly disruptive person (c) allowing each side to have a voice while preventing endless debate after all the points have been made. I'm not saying that any of the details of Roberts' Rules can transfer over to mailing lists intact--just that many of the principles are analogous and seem to be sorely needed. "Netiquette" addresses some of these needs, but does not really deal with some of the mailing-list specific issues. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 14:18:01 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA26740 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 13:52:43 -0700 Received: from acad1.alaska.edu (acad1.alaska.edu [137.229.150.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA26732 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 13:52:26 -0700 Received: from ua.acad1.alaska.edu by VMS.ACAD1.ALASKA.EDU (PMDF V4.3-9 #8274) id <01HIGGENK13K9OD9P6@VMS.ACAD1.ALASKA.EDU>; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:07:17 -0800 Received: with PMDF-MR; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:06:29 -0800 MR-Received: by mta ACAD1A; Relayed; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:06:29 -0800 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 10:06:28 -0800 From: "John W. Redelfs" Subject: Control Freak To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01HIGGER1OMO9OD9P6@ua.acad1.alaska.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X400-MTS-identifier: [;92600191014991/1696867@ACAD1A] Hop-count: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a Listowner and "control freak" rather than a "list maintainer." I am a self-confessed "control freak" managing a list for religious discussion among a group of people who belong to a minority faith that inspires in its followers a high degree of involvement. May I suggest that in some situations a list must be "owned" rather than "maintained" depending on the kind of list it is. My list which is private but not moderated on Majordomo, split off from a much larger list over a year ago and has developed a culture of its own. The entire purpose of the list is to provide a refuge or sanctuary from a certain kind of subtle proselytizing by members of our faith that are determined to pollute our denomination with such modern, "worldly" concepts as feminism and the gay rights agenda among others. The list fails to serve as a refuge from these ideas and the people promoting these ideas on the Internet unless a high degree of control is exercised. Whether these ideas or people are good or bad isn't the point. The point is that we want to be able to use the Internet to network using an email list in an admittedly exclusive manner. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that those attempting to insert their views in our faith are intentionally subversive, that is, they deliberately pretend to hold different views from those they actually hold in order to obtain admission to the list. Then they use the list to continually move the topic of conversation to a discussion of gay rights and women's rights. Since the purpose of the list is to provide a place where we don't have to argue about such things, it would be stupid for us to approach list management from a "list maintainer" point of view rather than a "control freak" point of view. One of our biggest problems so far is excluding mail posted to the list blind by expelled individuals. Apparently Majordomo is not written to prevent posting by individuals who are not subscribed. This seems to be true regardless of whether the list is "public," "private" or "closed." Often dissidents from our faith will gain list membership by subterfuge and merely lurk while fowarding the mail to friends that have been expelled who will then post to the list as if they were still subscribed. The result is a constant war of wits, trying to make the software do what it cannot do in maintaining list security. At one point, to prevent hidden dissidents on the list from forwarding mail to expelled associates, I unsubscribed nearly the entire list and then added names back in after careful screening. What a hassle! Listserv is a marvelous technology. It enables us to network on a level never before known. True virtual communities and lifelong friendships develop. But until the software is developed for true control of over who listens and who posts, a lot of networking will be impossible. However, I'm sure that such technology will be forthcoming merely because there is a need, and where there is a need the software eventually follows. I am a "control freak" and proud of it. Sometimes the situation demands it. John W. Redelfs, tsjwr@acad1.alaska.edu From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 15:48:04 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA27323 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:39:39 -0700 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA27318 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:39:26 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA08034; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:38:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:38:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Control Freak To: "John W. Redelfs" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <01HIGGER1OMO9OD9P6@ua.acad1.alaska.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, John W. Redelfs wrote: > One of our biggest problems so far is excluding mail posted to the > list blind by expelled individuals. Apparently Majordomo is not > written to prevent posting by individuals who are not subscribed. Wrong. Use the -I option. It's not watertight, as has been mentioned here before, but it's good for most cases. What I think it seems you really want is a 100% moderated list - that way you can make sure none of those silly ideas like feminism and gay rights seep in, even accidentally. Brian "Who said networking technology was always a liberating force anyways?" From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 19 22:47:09 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA29307 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 22:20:56 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA29302 for ; Wed, 19 Oct 1994 22:20:42 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA03133; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 05:21:12 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 20 Oct 94 5:28:18 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Thu, 20 Oct 94 5:28:06 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 05:28:02 GMT Subject: Issues about List Ownership X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <1EFE61476C5@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Today I had the opportunity to retrieve the traffic from List-Managers concerning the interesting issues on List-ownership risen by Mr. Silvert. First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Eric Thomas for having had the courtesy to forward some of the messages concerning this issue. Ethical topics concerning List-ownership are very interesting. I ran myself into such issues when disruption appeared in the network I started (FISH-ECOLOGY at SEARN.SUNET.SE), a forum on Fisheries ecology and related topics. As the list has become highly successful, with nearly 1000 academics from 39 countries in 10 months since start, perhaps my views upon listownership may be of help to third parties - or to new list owners. So here they go: (1) There is a huge number of mailing lists with a rather high noise-to-signal ratio. As a matter of fact, Senior scientists run off Internet to 750 USD/mailbox/year OMNET. When noise is too high communication is difficult, as when you want to talk to some one while being near a jet airplane with the engines on. (2) At the begining, Senior scientists would leave FISH-ECOLOGY because of the noise. And what would be left to us (Juniors) if the older, more experienced scientists left ?: We couldn't afford a mail-box in OMNET. Well, the answer is to increase quality so the Seniors *stay*. (3) This implied that the list went private, the flags were changed to subscription-by-owner, reply-to-list and that new subscribers will abide some rules to be accepted into the network. The rules are as follows: (a) Topics covered by the network are very clearly defined; (b) Topics other than those specified are to be discussed elsewhere; (c) Offenses and vulgar language usage will be followed by the termination of membership; (d) Addressing topics other than those covered by the network will be objected; serveral warnings will be followed by termination of membership; (e) Commercial and political announcements are forbidden; As messages are distributed automatically the subscribers have always the chance to say anything they like to. However, if the rules are broken and policies overrun several times the user will be excluded from the network and will not be allowed to join anymore. The information channeled via the network may always be retrieved through Gopher and LISTSERV logs. No abuse concerning access to information may be practiced if the system is half open (i.e. traffic and logs may be retrieved in several ways with no restriction whatsoever). In fact, no differences are made between a conventional conference and this electronic one: The same standards apply to every one whether you sell live fish in a zoological store or you have hundreds of publications. Being clear about Aims and Rules imply positive effects upon traffic and upon the names who wish to join the network. Sometimes I feel very proud when internationally famous research scientists from the world's foremost marine research centra and international organizations request to join. The number of known Senior scientists you have in the list might be a measure of success, I believe. As for professional discussions I believe they have to be sheltered in some way. Professionals should feel "safe" by means that when they switch on the computer they will not find junk-mail but research information. Researchers use this medium to enhance productivity, to exchange ideas and to reach colleagues here-and-now, not to waste their time and navigate through messages lacking the desired information. There would be complementary services such as a bibliographic one and a research software repository. Getting rights to re-distribute software and other copyrighted material may be very good (but hard work). The material is announced and distributed-by-request and subscribers enjoy and appreciate very much such efforts. In FISH-ECOLOGY all our subscribers are referred to as "Sir" and "Madame". It is *very important* to use a highly educated speech and to let them know we are *in fact* very proud of having acquired their membership. These particular aspects create a highly respectfull and productive athmosphere. I believe this is the only way to carry out scientific communication. The above changes have implied a very good e-behaviour among our subscribers. They seem to like the shelter, aims and rules and the list keeps growing. Many subscribers are highly altruistic and constructive and they will take time to gather material and research software to distribute via the network to other interested colleagues. This is becoming highly stimulating as subscribers act in a highly educated fashion - so as expected from academics. Also, it is important to feel confidence in your systems operator. In FISH-ECOLOGY/SUNET we have the priviledge of having Mr. Eric Thomas around who'll help you above-and-beyond duty. However, there is not always so. Sometimes system operators would humilliate non-computer oriented people and that may be a major drawback to the scientific community: This is so because the information may be communicated in a way which is not easy to understand to newcomers and which -in fact- imposes that information is accessed by a "technical minority" only. In FISH-ECOLOGY we have done some efforts contacting our members and trying to get the information through in a clear and easy way to understand. Good Internet citizenship builds up in that way: clear and loud information, clear rules and clear aims. If you ever run into problems I would suggest you subscribe to a list such as this one or LSTOWNR-L@SEARN where you may get good advice from Senior listowners. After considering their advice you will be able to take more solid decisions. So did I and it helped a great deal. Cyberspace is a multi-billion dollar machinery and may be used as a highly productive medium. Thus we have a great deal of responsibility to teach good e-citizenship and not to let overrun the particular purposes the networks are supported/created for. Thank you for your attention. Kind regards, Aldo-Pier Solari ]From: ]Subject: Issues about List Ownership ] ]An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will ]eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators ... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Aldo-Pier Solari [MSc., PhD-cand., Lunds Univ.-Sweden-] at Fisheries Res. Group, Univ. of Las Palmas. Box 550, 35018 Las Palmas - Canary Islands (Spain). em fax<34\28\45 29 22> Remote list owner: FISH-ECOLOGY and FISH-JUNIOR at SEARN.SUNET.SE Requests/administrativia to: Gateway if e-mail bounces: *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 20 02:20:23 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA00659 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 01:53:57 -0700 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id BAA00654 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 01:53:52 -0700 Received: from glock.ramp.com by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQxmkh26642; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 04:53:11 -0400 Received: (from sharokh@localhost) by glock.ramp.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) id IAA27498; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:52:27 GMT Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 01:52:27 -0700 (MST) From: Sharokh Subject: who To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk who list-managers From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 20 11:56:46 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA03971 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:27:41 -0700 Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (newhamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA03709 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 10:58:30 -0700 Received: by hamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04846; Thu, 20 Oct 94 13:58:57 EDT Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Michelle P Murrain Subject: SmartList mailing list To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199410200800.BAA29910@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone know what's up with the SmartList Mailing list? I've tried many times unsuccessfully to subscribe over the last couple of months. (no replies or bounces, the mail seems to go into the ether) Luckily, my lists running on Smartlist are OK, but I want to at least have a place to ask some questions if (or rather, when) they come up. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. School of Natural Science mmurrain@hamp.hampshire.edu Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu Amherst, MA 01002 URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 20 12:20:46 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA04268 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:44:57 -0700 Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (newhamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA04263 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:44:48 -0700 Received: by hamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05926; Thu, 20 Oct 94 14:45:15 EDT Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:45:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Michelle P Murrain Subject: Control Freaks, list owners and the like To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199410200800.BAA29910@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "John W. Redelfs" writes: > > I am a self-confessed "control freak" managing a list for religious > discussion among a group of people who belong to a minority faith that > inspires in its followers a high degree of involvement. May I suggest > that in some situations a list must be "owned" rather than > "maintained" depending on the kind of list it is. > > My list which is private but not moderated on Majordomo, split off from > a much larger list over a year ago and has developed a culture of its > own. The entire purpose of the list is to provide a refuge or > sanctuary from a certain kind of subtle proselytizing by members of > our faith that are determined to pollute our denomination with such > modern, "worldly" concepts as feminism and the gay rights agenda among > others. The list fails to serve as a refuge from these ideas and the > people promoting these ideas on the Internet unless a high degree of > control is exercised. These comments made me think about the lists I "own" and "manage" and "facilitate". I started an open list about Feminist Critiques of Science (called FIST - Feminism in/and science and technology) a while back, and the first spate of messages included many from men questioning the validity of these critiques. But the purpose of the list was similar to that posed above, as a refuge, where we didn't have to constantly justify our reasons for exsistence, and could thus move forward. I had to become somewhat of a control freak myself, and really clamp down on some subscribers, and set up some "rules" for conversation, which all new subscribers get when they subscribe. The list is still open, and I haven't had to douse a flame war in a while. In many ways I consider myself "listowner" of this list. Another list I started had no such controversial overtones, so that I am able to take a fairly hands off approach. I think of myself in terms of this list as a "list maintainer", although I do have a professional stake in the list. (It is on minority health issues - my area of research) The third list is one that is a relatively closed, private list. I was a subscriber, when the original founders of the list lost their ability to maintain the list because of a job change. They needed someone to do it, and I volunteered. In this case I think of myself as the "list facilitator" - someone who puts out electronic fires, and helps screen subscribers. But the subscribers themselves (among whom I consider myself) determine the policies and fate of the list. In other words, I expect each list, person running the list, and content and potential controversy of the list will determine how heavy a hand one has to place on the list in question. I don't think it is possible or necessary (or even desireable) to try and come up with a standard relationship. I think that it *is* useful to think about some broad frameworks in which we should operate. Michelle --------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email or finger: School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Hampshire College mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu Amherst, MA 01002 URL:http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 21 11:55:40 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA13769 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Oct 1994 11:21:34 -0700 Received: from hub.ucsb.edu (hub.ucsb.edu [128.111.24.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA05507 for ; Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:52:11 -0700 Received: from dokoka (dokoka.ucsb.edu) by hub.ucsb.edu; id AA05482 sendmail 4.1/UCSB-2.1-sun Thu, 20 Oct 94 14:50:56 PDT for List-Managers@greatcircle.com Received: from localhost.ucsb.edu by dokoka via SMTP (931110.SGI/920502.SGI.v2) for @hub.ucsb.edu:List-Managers@greatcircle.com id AA15417; Thu, 20 Oct 94 14:53:10 -0700 Message-Id: <9410202153.AA15417@dokoka> To: Michelle P Murrain Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: SmartList mailing list Reply-To: "Alan K. Stebbens" In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:58:57 PDT. Comments: Hyperbole mail buttons accepted, v3.15. Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:53:03 -0700 From: Alan Stebbens Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anyone know what's up with the SmartList Mailing list? I've tried > many times unsuccessfully to subscribe over the last couple of months. > (no replies or bounces, the mail seems to go into the ether) Luckily, my > lists running on Smartlist are OK, but I want to at least have a place to > ask some questions if (or rather, when) they come up. Are you using the correct address? I just subscribed to the SmartList mailing list yesterday and got an automatic confirmation within 10 minutes. The mail should look like: To: "SmartList Request" subscribe Alan From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 21 12:33:16 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA13792 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Oct 1994 11:23:44 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id FAA10273 for ; Fri, 21 Oct 1994 05:07:16 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA05671; Fri, 21 Oct 94 13:04:52 +0100 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA00490; Fri, 21 Oct 94 13:04:30 +0100 Message-Id: <9410211204.AA00490@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 13:04:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: Michelle P Murrain's message as of 1994 Oct 20 Thu 13:58. To: Michelle P Murrain , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: SmartList mailing list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle P Murrain wrote: >Does anyone know what's up with the SmartList Mailing list? I've tried >many times unsuccessfully to subscribe over the last couple of months. >(no replies or bounces, the mail seems to go into the ether) Luckily, my >lists running on Smartlist are OK, but I want to at least have a place to >ask some questions if (or rather, when) they come up. I just checked the logs and dist file of the SmartList mailinglist. There is indeed no trace of your address. Are you sure your site resolves SmartList-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de using the proper MX records? Is anyone else having difficulties subscribing? -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). This sentance contains threee errors. From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 22 17:47:05 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA23640 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 17:24:47 -0700 Received: from sgiblab.sgi.com (sgiblab.SGI.COM [192.82.208.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id RAA23634 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 17:24:36 -0700 Received: from bolis by sgiblab.sgi.com via UUCP (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) id AA06848; Sat, 22 Oct 94 17:23:48 -0700 Received: by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0qyr3R-0005YQC; Sat, 22 Oct 94 17:44 PDT Message-Id: From: Alan Millar Subject: Re: Do Jerks have rights? (was: List Ownership) To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 17:44:55 -0800 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9410171241.AA15521@biome.bio.ns.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Oct 17, 94 09:41:44 am Reply-To: Alan Millar X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1487 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Verily didst Bill Silvert sayeth: > idea that list owners have absolute power to discriminate on any basis > they choose. I don't think that they should have that power. The question that comes to mind is: who is going to stop them? > Do other > list managers feel constrained by policies of the owners of their host > machines? If list owners violate host policies, the host can shut down the list. To extrapolate from your words above, the host owner has absolute power to discriminate against list owners on any basis they choose. Should that power be forbidden also? If so, who will control list owners? The practical solution for list members who don't like the list owner's methods of control is the same solution for list owners who don't like the host's control. Go elsewhere. Find another list more amenable or start a new one. Find another host more amenable or start a new one. No magazine or newspaper is obligated to take your submission and print it. However, you are always free to start your own. Many people publish newsletters as a hobby. Same thing with lists and hosts. Starting a list is IMHO a whole lot easier and cheaper than paper. The only thing that will work in the long term is peer pressure. And that will come with alternatives. Only all too often we must make our alternatives ourselves. - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator Web: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/amillar/welcome.html From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 22 19:46:56 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA24361 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 19:21:07 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA24339 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 19:18:46 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA22377; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 02:18:08 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 23 Oct 94 2:26:40 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 23 Oct 94 2:26:27 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 02:26:18 GMT Subject: Honesty requested (was Issues about Listownership) X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <234DAA84085@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mr. Silvert et al. You are absolutely right concerning the "Code of conduct" for mailing list administrators. There should be such codes for users and system operators too. However, I would like to point out that *ideological cohesion and honesty* are necessary features when some one is adressing Ethical issues, SIR. Aldo-Pier Solari (Listowner FISH-ECOLOGY). ]On 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) wrote: ] ][...] ] ]... but I now realize that there are frightening opportunities for ]autocracy and censorship as well. ] ]... Perhaps we need a code of conduct for mailing list ]administrators, but how can it be enforced? And on Sat, 22 Oct 1994 23:24:18 GMT (Bill Silvert) wrote again: ] ]Subject: You are being watched! ]To: fisheries@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Fisheries) ]Message-Id: <9410221803.AA02801@biome.bio.ns.ca> ] ]It might be wise to remind subscribers to this list that membership on a ]mailing list is a matter of public knowledge. In the case of the ]Fisheries list I have set it so that only members can obtain a listing ]of who is on the list, but since anyone is free to join, this is not a ]problem to anyone interested in keeping track of who our members are. ]For example, from the recent logs: ] ]Aug 10 02:25:42 {Aldo-Pier Solari } subscribe fisheries solaris@cicei.ulpgc.es ]Aug 10 02:25:57 {Aldo-Pier Solari } who fisheries ]Aug 10 02:33:39 {Aldo-Pier Solari } unsubscribe fisheries solaris@cicei.ulpgc.es ] ]Oct 21 21:01:07 {Aldo-Pier Solari } subscribe fisheries SOLARIS@CICEI.ULPGC.ES ]Oct 21 21:01:30 {Aldo-Pier Solari } who fisheries ]Oct 21 23:56:27 {Aldo-Pier Solari } unsubscribe fisheries solaris@cicei.ulpgc.es ] ]Of course there is nothing wrong with wanting to know who is on the ]list, but I thought that list members should be informed about this ]practice. ] ]Bill ]-- ]Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography ]P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 ]Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca ]HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca ]---------------------------------------------------- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Aldo-Pier Solari [MSc., PhD-cand., Lunds Univ.-Sweden-] at Fisheries Res. Group, Univ. of Las Palmas. Box 550, 35018 Las Palmas - Canary Islands (Spain). em fax<34\28\45 29 22> Remote list owner: FISH-ECOLOGY and FISH-JUNIOR at SEARN.SUNET.SE Requests/administrativia to: Gateway if e-mail bounces: *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 22 22:46:56 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA25154 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 22:37:31 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA25149 for ; Sat, 22 Oct 1994 22:37:19 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA22822; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 05:37:56 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 23 Oct 94 5:46:31 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Sun, 23 Oct 94 5:46:27 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 05:46:18 GMT Subject: A question on Noise & Junk Mail X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2382FC360A5@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Seniors I would like to know your points of view on the following issues: 1. Concerning Noise of the nature "Take me off this ... list", "John, send me copy of ..." and the like): How (if at all) did you turn down such interferences ?; 2. Concerning junk mail of the nature: "Yes, me too", etc. How did you turn down such traffic ?; I believe that if a fee would be arranged for Internet non-EDU users the ammount of junk & jerks might be lower. Many people consider connectivity and communications more as a "right" than a priviledge. This imposes that the infrastructure allocated to e-communications by TAX-payers is -in part- being wasted (and _very little_ is being done to solve this problem). Any comments will be appreciated. Kind regards, Aldo-Pier Solari (FISH-ECOLOGY) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Aldo-Pier Solari [MSc., PhD-cand., Lunds Univ.-Sweden-] at Fisheries Res. Group, Univ. of Las Palmas. Box 550, 35018 Las Palmas - Canary Islands (Spain). em fax<34\28\45 29 22> Remote list owner: FISH-ECOLOGY and FISH-JUNIOR at SEARN.SUNET.SE Requests/administrativia to: Gateway if e-mail bounces: *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 00:46:56 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id AAA25386 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 00:27:41 -0700 Received: from sgiblab.sgi.com (sgiblab.SGI.COM [192.82.208.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id AAA25381 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 00:27:32 -0700 Received: from bolis by sgiblab.sgi.com via UUCP (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) id AA03320; Sun, 23 Oct 94 00:26:50 -0700 Received: by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0qyxcL-0005YQC; Sun, 23 Oct 94 00:45 PDT Message-Id: From: Alan Millar Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail To: SOLARIS@cicei.ulpgc.es (Aldo-Pier Solari) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 00:45:24 -0800 (PDT) Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <2382FC360A5@cicei.ulpgc.es> from "Aldo-Pier Solari" at Oct 23, 94 05:46:18 am Reply-To: Alan Millar X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1413 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is starting to digress, but... Verily didst Aldo-Pier Solari sayeth: > I believe that if a fee would be arranged for Internet non-EDU users > the ammount of junk & jerks might be lower. You could make such a comment about any subdivision of Internet users; the influx of jerks on lists comes from everywhere. The idea that somehow EDU users deserve to pay less or have fewer jerks is quite bigoted. > Many people consider > connectivity and communications more as a "right" than a priviledge. > This imposes that the infrastructure allocated to e-communications > by TAX-payers is -in part- being wasted (and _very little_ is being > done to solve this problem). > > Any comments will be appreciated. On the contrary, quite a bit is being done about it. It's called the commercialization of the Internet: whoever uses the network pays for it. That's why the CIX and similar non-NSFNet-oriented alliances are continually growing. People are paying for their access. The best solution to stop wasting my tax money is stop paying ANS (IBM!) to build a university playground. Nobody misses the ARPANet (other than for nostalgia). We won't miss the NSFNet when it's gone either. - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator Web: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/amillar/welcome.html I am the great Oz! Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 09:36:09 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA27537 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 08:54:24 -0700 Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id IAA27532 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 08:54:11 -0700 Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA03856; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:53:27 +0100 From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199410231553.QAA03856@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail To: SOLARIS@cicei.ulpgc.es (Aldo-Pier Solari) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:53:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: LIST-MANAGERS@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2382FC360A5@cicei.ulpgc.es> from "Aldo-Pier Solari" at Oct 23, 94 05:46:18 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 6345 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Dear Seniors > > I would like to know your points of view on the following issues: > > 1. Concerning Noise of the nature "Take me off this ... list", > "John, send me copy of ..." and the like): How (if at all) did you > turn down such interferences ?; > > 2. Concerning junk mail of the nature: "Yes, me too", etc. How did > you turn down such traffic ?; I am the maintainer of the BPR-L list with almost 1400 users that vary a great deal. I did several things to cut down interference: 1. Make sure the Reply-to: address for individual messages is the SENDER of the message, and not the entire list (this list is set up in this way). If users casually Reply with their mailer, the message is not sent to the list. Of course this does not work for digests. See more on that below. 2. Make sure your introduction letter is GOOD and contains some etiquette issues on how to use the list. 3. I remind the users of the most important issues by including a HEADER on ALL DIGESTS. The header looks as follows: ******************************************************************************* * BUSINESS PROCESS RE-ENGINEERING MAILING LIST BPR-L * * Delft University of Technology * ******************************************************************************* * You can send a message to all members of the mailing list BPR-L by sending * * an e-mail to the following address: BPR-L@IS.TWI.TUDELFT.NL. * * * * It will be distributed AUTOMATICALLY to ALL members of the list, so be * * careful what you submit! Trim down your messages as much as possible!! * ******************************************************************************* * You can ask the list processor to perform various tasks for you by sending * * an e-mail to the following address: LISTSERV@IS.TWI.TUDELFT.NL * * * * This e-mail should contain commands recognizable for the list processor, * * examples are given below: * * * * INFO BPR-L (for obtaining the info letter) * * GET BPR-L BPR-L.FAQ (for obtaining the Frequently Asked Questions list) * * UNSUB BPR-L (for unsubscribing) * * SET BPR-L MAIL ACK (for getting individual messages instead of digests) * * * ******************************************************************************* * SEND YOUR COMMANDS ONLY TO LISTSERV@IS.TWI.TUDELFT.NL, NOT TO BPR-L@IS.TWI. * * In case of problems, send e-mail to listman@is.twi.tudelft.nl (A.verbraeck) * ******************************************************************************* The above header is included automatically on EACH digest, and helps the users to avoid the most stupid problems. 4. Every time a users does something stupid, I have some 30 files ready that inform the user about the thing he or she did. The messages are polite, but very clear. An example is included below. The only thing I have to do is reply to the "offender", include the file, and send it off. Most users thank me for being pointed at the problem instead of receiving a flame, and I hope this helps to improve the level of knowledge of the users of my list in general. An example: ======================================================================== Dear BPR-L user, You use an "out of the office" reply that gives some problems with e-mail lists like the Business Process Reengineering list. Your "answering service" is not recognizable as such for the (fully automated) listprocessor. When your auto-reply states that you are out of the office when receiving e-mail from the BPR-L list, the reply is returned TO THE LIST and re-distributed to ALL MEMBERS of the list, including yourself. You can imagine that thousands of e-mails might get distributed to hundreds of list readers in a few hours, bouncing between your autoreply and the list that automatically distributes anything it gets, to all the 1300+ members... Fortunately, the list usually intercepts such messages before they are sent out. The listserver did, however, not recognize your "out of the office" message but interpreted it as an ordinary e-mail message sent to the list as any other. There are several reasons for that: 1. The e-mail message is a "new" message and not a Reply to the original message. 2. No part of the original message is therefore included that may be recognized by the listprocessor as being suspect. 3. The title "Stand-in notification for ...") is not recognized as being suspect. SUGGESTION: Include one of the following word combinations in your automatic reply, for instance "Away from mail, stand-in notifica...": auto reply automatic reply away from mail out of town can not reply can not answer on vacation via vacation program Any of those word combinations is recognized by the listserver (and by most other listservers) as an automatic reply, and not the reply of a flesh-and-blood human being. If you use a standard auto-reply utility, can you also notify the system manager of the abovementioned problem? If you need any more information (on this problem or on the BPR-L list in general), please contact me. Thanks in advance for your help. Kind regards, Dr. Alexander Verbraeck List Manager BPR-L ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Faculty TWI Dept of Information Systems PO Box 356, 2600 AJ Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 783805 Secr: +31 15 784475 Fax: +31 15 786632/787022 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@is.twi.tudelft.nl OR winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl http://www.twi.tudelft.nl/People/A.Verbraeck.html >dynamic modelling info ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this helps you (and maybe others) to improve the quality of your list. Kind regards, Alexander Verbraeck. From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 11:17:06 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA28056 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:51:27 -0700 Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA28051 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:51:21 -0700 Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA04881 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 18:50:45 +0100 From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199410231750.SAA04881@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Problems mailing to gov.on.ca and other MRIF-addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 18:50:45 +0100 (MET) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2656 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A week or so ago, someone posted a problem on trying to get mail delivered to gov.on.ca with a listserver. I have had this problem for a year or so, and I have not been able to solve it. It is not only gov.on.ca, but ALL SITES that use software called "MRIF", whatever that may be. As soon as a listproc-generated message or digest reaches "MRIF", MRIF bounces the e-mail with an "Internal error". Strange enough, normal e-mail to the same recipient DOES go through. I have not been able to determine what is wrong, in spite of dozens of e-mails to the users with problems or the post- masters of the sites that have MRIF. None of the postmasters I have ever e-mailed at those sites (including gov.on.ca) have ever answered me. I am therefore not sure if they even received my questions and complaints... Several questions that might help me further to solve this mystery: 1. What is MRIF (I think it is a Digital product, but I am not sure) 2. Has anyone been able to solve this problem (I give an example below) 3. Is there anyone with listproc software that is able to successfully deliver postings to users at gov.on.ca or mts.dec.com (another site with the same problems)? ======================================================================== An example of a returned e-mail message: From MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca Sun Oct 23 15:35:34 1994 Received: from govonca.gov.on.ca (govonca.gov.on.ca [192.75.156.244]) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA03353; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 15:35:33 +0100 Received: by govonca.gov.on.ca (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA20021; Sun, 23 Oct 94 10:36:25 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 94 10:36:25 -0400 From: MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Internal error Message-Id: <9410231436.AA20021@govonca.gov.on.ca> To: To: a.verbraeck@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl Status: RO ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <<< RCPT To: <<< DATA mr_talker: OK, MRIF Service V0.2 554 ... Internal error ----- Unsent message follows ----- [Rest deleted] -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Faculty TWI Dept of Information Systems PO Box 356, 2600 AJ Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 783805 Secr: +31 15 784475 Fax: +31 15 786632/787022 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@is.twi.tudelft.nl OR winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl http://www.twi.tudelft.nl/People/A.Verbraeck.html >dynamic modelling info ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 14:18:03 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA28957 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 14:09:16 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA27033 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 05:38:19 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIM0J9A2KW002KYP@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:37:32 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIM0IUNBW000PVTG@AC.DAL.CA>; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:37:26 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA09414; Sun, 23 Oct 94 09:37:18 -0300 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:37:17 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: A question on Noise & Junk Mail (response) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9410231237.AA09414@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3957 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Aldo raises a very common question here. To some extent this is a software problem. I use Majordomo to run about 30 lists, and it parses messages before posting them so that some junk messages are sent to the list owner for approval. I don't recall the exact criteria, but messages which contain the strings "help" or "subscribe" in the first few lines are not posted without owner approval. I should think that users of other mailing software could install similar filters as front ends, but I haven't looked into that. One of the related issues is whether the reply address for lists should be to the original poster or to the list. In general I feel that replies should go to the original poster, although there are some lists for which this is not appropriate (if the purpose of the list is to foment discussion, sure, have the default address be the list). There are several reasons for making the poster the default reply address: 1. Many users automatically reply to messages and send brief personal replies to the list. I find it really irritating to get a message in my mailbox of the form "Bill, I think you should check the report for errors" or something like that which gets me concerned before I discover that it was sent to another Bill via a list. 2. It is easy with most mailers to set up an alias for the list and to forward replies to the list, but to send a personal reply involves copying the poster's address into the To: line, which can be a nuisance if the address is long and involved. A particular aggravation is to start to reply to a message, then to discover that the poster's address is missing. One then has to exit, display the full message header, and start again. As for the suggestion that non-EDU users be charged for Internet usage, Aldo may not be aware that Internet connectivity is usually arranged on an institutional basis, with a fixed fee for unlimited usage. I don't know how much Internet traffic consists of Email, but I suspect that it is relatively small compared to newsgroups, and that the total text bandwidth is small compared to that used for binary transfers (the number of megabytes of remote sensing data that comes to this site every day is staggering). Bill Silvert >I would like to know your points of view on the following issues: > >1. Concerning Noise of the nature "Take me off this ... list", >"John, send me copy of ..." and the like): How (if at all) did you >turn down such interferences ?; > >2. Concerning junk mail of the nature: "Yes, me too", etc. How did >you turn down such traffic ?; > >I believe that if a fee would be arranged for Internet non-EDU users >the ammount of junk & jerks might be lower. Many people consider >connectivity and communications more as a "right" than a priviledge. >This imposes that the infrastructure allocated to e-communications >by TAX-payers is -in part- being wasted (and _very little_ is being >done to solve this problem). > >Any comments will be appreciated. > > Kind regards, > > Aldo-Pier Solari (FISH-ECOLOGY) > > > > >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* >Aldo-Pier Solari [MSc., PhD-cand., Lunds Univ.-Sweden-] at Fisheries >Res. Group, Univ. of Las Palmas. Box 550, 35018 Las Palmas - Canary >Islands (Spain). em > fax<34\28\45 29 22> >Remote list owner: FISH-ECOLOGY and FISH-JUNIOR at SEARN.SUNET.SE >Requests/administrativia to: >Gateway if e-mail bounces: >*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > > -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 17:17:07 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00424 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:53:56 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00419 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 16:53:49 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:02 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:00 +0100 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199410232353.1889.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9410231237.AA09414@biome.bio.ns.ca> (bill@biome.bio.ns.ca) Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail (response) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk +--- Bill Silvert: | One of the related issues is whether the reply address for lists | should be to the original poster or to the list. In general I feel | that replies should go to the original poster, although there are | some lists for which this is not appropriate (if the purpose of the | list is to foment discussion, sure, have the default address be the | list). I think the best solution is what List-Managers do -- leave the headers alone as much as possible, ie. don't add a Reply-To, don't rewrite From. Why? Well, in my mail reader, I can type "r" to reply to the list, or "C-u r" to reply to just the author. Don't assume people are stupid or have crappy software and "protect" them against themselves. Please. Aldo also brought up getting rid of "me too" postings. Has anyone got a good tactic against these? (The problem with "me too" postings is that they usually are coupled with massive quoting.) Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 20:16:57 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA01325 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 20:10:09 -0700 Received: from Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu [198.213.2.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id UAA01320 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 20:10:04 -0700 Received: (from kinnaman@localhost) by Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA28691; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 22:09:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 22:09:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Dave Kinnaman Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail (me toos) To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme cc: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Prescott Smith In-Reply-To: <199410232353.1889.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil, Prescott Smith, owner emeritus of Ednet, used a tactic against me-toos with some success: Anyone posting a request for replies or an offer (of further information), was asked, in the monthly reminder message, to USE ALL CAPS TO REMIND READERS (AT THE END OF THE ORIGINAL MESSAGE) TO NOT USE THE REPLY FUNCTION, BUT RATHER TO SEND THE MESSAGE TO ONLY ONE PERSON. Some newbies don't get it no matter what you do, but this did seem to help some, IMHO. Pax, Dave Absolute Power Dave Kinnaman 512/463-9321 Corrupts Absolutely On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:00 +0100 > From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme > To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca > Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail (response) > > +--- Bill Silvert: > | One of the related issues is whether the reply address for lists > | should be to the original poster or to the list. In general I feel > | that replies should go to the original poster, although there are > | some lists for which this is not appropriate (if the purpose of the > | list is to foment discussion, sure, have the default address be the > | list). > > I think the best solution is what List-Managers do -- leave the > headers alone as much as possible, ie. don't add a Reply-To, don't > rewrite From. > > Why? Well, in my mail reader, I can type "r" to reply to the list, or > "C-u r" to reply to just the author. Don't assume people are stupid or > have crappy software and "protect" them against themselves. Please. > > Aldo also brought up getting rid of "me too" postings. Has anyone got > a good tactic against these? (The problem with "me too" postings is > that they usually are coupled with massive quoting.) > > > Kjetil T. > From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 21:47:49 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA01582 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:42:15 -0700 Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (rmporter@unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id VAA01576 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:41:52 -0700 Received: by unixg.ubc.ca (4.1/1.14) id AA24150; Sun, 23 Oct 94 21:40:51 PDT Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Richard M. Porter" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A question on Noise (the "me tooz" syndrome) In-Reply-To: <199410232353.1889.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Kjetil Torgrim Homme wrote: > Aldo also brought up getting rid of "me too" postings. Has anyone got > a good tactic against these? (The problem with "me too" postings is > that they usually are coupled with massive quoting.) Write the abuser (yes thats what they are!) privately. Remind them that should they do this again, they will be removed (and if they do not learn, purge them -- do not give second chances). Write a note to the list every once-in-a-while about reply nettiquette, and the consequences of failing to pay attention. I do not feel there is a posative way to deal with this problem. richard m porter res-econ list-administrator From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 22:06:50 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA01565 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:36:03 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id VAA01560 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 21:35:48 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA26468; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 04:35:58 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 4:44:59 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 4:44:33 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 04:44:29 GMT Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <24F26460C99@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Millar wrote on 23 Oct 1994: ]> I believe that if a fee would be arranged for Internet non-EDU users ]> the ammount of junk & jerks might be lower. ] ]You could make such a comment about any subdivision of Internet users; ]the influx of jerks on lists comes from everywhere. The idea that ]somehow EDU users deserve to pay less or have fewer jerks is quite ]bigoted. No bigotry whatsoever was meant in my message, Sir. However, my opinion is that, for instance LISTSERV traffic, is generally of higher quality than traffic from, say, USENET. LISTSERV traffic is "biased" by the academic population while USENET traffic _may -in higher degree- be "biased" by non-EDU users. Naturally, there is not just a single source of "noise". However, I am sure that both systems and serious users will feel the "rigour" as private e-mail providers are running agressive marketing to hook up any one who may pay. Another reason to dig-in, Sir. ]... The best solution to stop wasting my tax money is stop paying ANS (IBM!) to build a university playground. I do not believe EDU & RESearch are any playgrounds, Sir. One of the main problems is that no codes of conduct are rendered (we took the point on this in FISH-ECOLOGY for some time ago and have succeded with it quite well). Furthermore, "Netiquette" guides are not enough. Universities and research centra who offer e-access may well prepare some coffee and show a couple of figures and talk about uses & abuses to newbies. I am sure that clear and loud information and clear "engagement" rules are welcomed by the majority of the population: Every one realizes that good discipline and good e-citizenship is for the benefit of all. Thank you to all who replied to my initial message sharing your expertise. APS (FISH-ECOLOGY) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 23:16:57 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA01818 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:01:44 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id XAA01813 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:01:37 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA26755; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 06:02:11 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 6:11:15 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 6:10:49 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 06:10:46 GMT Subject: Reply-to-sender [was Re: A question on ...] X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <2509652339A@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alexander Verbraeck wrote on 23 Oct 1994: ]1. Make sure the Reply-to: address for individual messages is the ] SENDER of the message, and not the entire list ... Reply-to-list vs Reply-to-sender is a painful trade-off, I believe, Sir. We have had both alternatives in FISH-ECOLOGY and great ammounts of research information would go lost because of the Reply-to-Sender flag. I believe that b.c. work may do a great deal in reducing noisy-use. Furthermore, I observed in FISH-ECOLOGY that the abusive type of messages were used by subscribers who are wired in Novell/LAN kind of internal networks - and not others. Perhaps, to make clear that the _same_ standards *apply* to every one whether one is the "baker man" or the "Honoris Causa" will do. Regards, APS (FISH-ECOLOGY) From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 23:20:11 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA01760 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 22:49:36 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA01754 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 22:49:20 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA26724; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 05:49:48 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 5:58:51 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 5:58:37 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 05:58:32 GMT Subject: An approach to put down the "me too" problem X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <250624658F9@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 23 Oct 1994 "Richard M. Porter" wrote: Concerning the "me too" problem Mr. Porter wrote: ]I do not feel there is a posative way to deal with this problem. If I may, I'd like to suggest an approach we have successfully practiced in FISH-ECOLOGY, Sir: (1). A user sends a SUB command to our server and receives back a FAQ file; (2). To be accepted into the network the user will have to agree to Aims and Rules and reply to our Request address; These first two steps will filter users in search of e-sources but without enough motivation to read the FAQ file. No read = Never In. (3) Also, the ones who read the document will have to read through Aims and Rules (at least two sections of the document) to know "what they are going to agree on". (4) Some pieces in the FAQ file address the issue on "contents of public interest, etc.". It has worked pretty well to us, I believe. If anyone'd like to receive the entire FAQ file you may request it to me or get a copy from LISTSERV@SEARN.SUNET.SE with the command line (in message body) GET FISH-ECO.FAQ Kind regards, Aldo-Pier Solari (FISH-ECOLOGY). From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 23 23:48:17 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA01889 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:18:35 -0700 Received: from fobos.ulpgc.es (fobos.ulpgc.es [193.145.132.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id XAA01884 for ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:18:29 -0700 Received: from cicei.ulpgc.es by fobos.ulpgc.es (5.65/Ultrix4.2-C) id AA26783; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 06:19:02 +0100 Received: from CICEI/MAILQUEUE by cicei.ulpgc.es (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 6:28:06 GMT Received: from MAILQUEUE by CICEI (Mercury 1.11); Mon, 24 Oct 94 6:27:37 GMT From: "Aldo-Pier Solari " Organization: Universidad de Las Palmas de G.C. To: LIST-MANAGERS@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 06:27:32 GMT Subject: Criticism on FAQ file requested X-Pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-Id: <250DE0D5616@cicei.ulpgc.es> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Seniors It'd be _most_ appreciated if any one of you would like to get the FISH-ECOLOGY FAQ file and do send over some critical comments on its contents (language usage, structure, contents, degree of "hardness", etc.). Any comentaries to improve the file (which all would-be subscribers receive and have to agree on) would be most welcome. To get the FAQ file you may send me a message to me or just retrieve it from LISTSERV@SEARN.SUNET.SE with the command line GET FISH-ECO.FAQ Kind regards, APS (FISH-ECOLOGY). From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 24 02:18:12 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA02859 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 01:57:52 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id BAA02853 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 01:57:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199410240857.BAA02853@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7653; Mon, 24 Oct 94 09:53:42 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 5834; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:53:41 +0100 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:44:16 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: A question on Noise & Junk Mail (response) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:00 +0100 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:53:00 +0100 Kjetil Torgrim Homme said: >Why? Well, in my mail reader, I can type "r" to reply to the list, or >"C-u r" to reply to just the author. Don't assume people are stupid or >have crappy software and "protect" them against themselves. Please. And instead you assume people have a good understanding of e-mail and read mail through gateways that do a good job of making these headers usable. Well the majority of list users read mail on a PC or equivalent, don't understand anything to computers, and are behind a gateway that may not even show the mail header at all. Many in fact have absolutely no way to know who posted the message (not by looking at the directory listing AND not by invoking any special option either, because the gateway removes the information for good) if there is both a "Sender:" and a "From:" field, and I won't get into "Reply-To:" or MAIL FROM:<> :-) Like it or not this is what people are using. I know some large corporations that spend millions of dollars a year licensing PC mail products that only support one origin field and whose SMTP gateway is not compliant. And they have no intention to switch to anything else. As with just about every other aspect of human-computer interaction, there is no single universal answer. LISTSERV lets each user define how the headers he gets look like so that unix users can get the r/R they want and PC users can get headers which let them know who wrote what and so on. The list owner defines a default for the list. This is not a perfect solution because the user still has to figure out how to set the preferences he needs. But, at least, you don't have to sacrifice a category of users to all the others. And when you have a list where you know everyone (or at least most people) use a particular mail program, you can set the "correct" header as default for the list. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 24 09:21:43 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA05811 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:03:05 -0700 Received: from acad1.alaska.edu (acad1.alaska.edu [137.229.150.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA05804 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:02:46 -0700 Received: from ua.acad1.alaska.edu by VMS.ACAD1.ALASKA.EDU (PMDF V4.3-9 #8274) id <01HINBM3V2ZK9ULU6G@VMS.ACAD1.ALASKA.EDU>; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:06:02 -0800 Received: with PMDF-MR; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:05:44 -0800 MR-Received: by mta ACAD1A; Relayed; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:05:44 -0800 Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:05:43 -0800 From: "John W. Redelfs" Subject: A question on Noise & Junk Mail To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01HINBM6BRIE9ULU6G@ua.acad1.alaska.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X400-MTS-identifier: [;44508042014991/1710949@ACAD1A] Hop-count: 1 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --- Aldo-Pier Solari --- > ]> I believe that if a fee would be arranged for Internet non-EDU users > ]> the ammount of junk & jerks might be lower. --- Alan Millar --- > ]You could make such a comment about any subdivision of Internet users; > ]the influx of jerks on lists comes from everywhere. The idea that > ]somehow EDU users deserve to pay less or have fewer jerks is quite > ]bigoted. --- Aldo-Pier Solari --- > No bigotry whatsoever was meant in my message, Sir. However, my > opinion is that, for instance LISTSERV traffic, is generally of > higher quality than traffic from, say, USENET. LISTSERV traffic is > "biased" by the academic population while USENET traffic _may -in > higher degree- be "biased" by non-EDU users. Naturally, there is not > just a single source of "noise". However, I am sure that both > systems and serious users will feel the "rigour" as private e-mail > providers are running agressive marketing to hook up any one who may > pay. Another reason to dig-in, Sir. I'm with Alan Millar on this one, I'm afraid. Mr. Solari's opinion expressed here sound like bigotry to me, whatever Mr. Solari's protestations to the contrary. It is true that the email list medium is generally of higher quality than Usenet, especially the alt.* newsgroups; but to assume this difference is due to LISTSERV being "biased" by *.edu users and Usenet being "biased" by non *.edu users is to make a bigoted and unfounded assumption, in my opinion. They are simply different mediums. Comparing LISTERV with Usenet, is comparing apples with oranges. The same person writes differently in the two mediums for a number of reasons. Would any of us behave the same where there are police to enforce discipline as we would where such police are absent? Do we write with the same care when we are writing a paper that we use when we are passing notes in class or writing on a men's room wall? Do we speak the same in casual conversation, say in a tavern, as we would in a colleague's home or in a seminar? Usenet attracts the kind of graffiti found in public restrooms, and it has nothing to do with being "biased" by non *.edu users LISTSERV is much more conducive to the building of a sense of community on the list than is Usenet. Strong, long-term relationships develop there much more easily than on a Usenet newsgroup where the users are much more transient. And in LISTSERV the conversation can be more narrowly focused with carefully enforced charters and list rules. There is no similar mechanism in Usenet which is considerably more anarchic by comparison. To credit this difference to a *.edu vs. non *.edu "bias" is academic snobbery of the first rank. Besides, some of the best behaved and most orderly discussion I have ever seen on email lists, I have seen on those non *.edu, Majordomo lists run on Alan Millar's host system at bolis.sf-bay.org. Come to think of it, I don't believe this list is an "academic" list either. John W. Redelfs, Founder of ACT and ZION tsjwr@acad1.alaska.edu ****************************************************************** "The intellectual was so intelligent, he was nearly as smart as he thought he was. " --the American Sage ****************************************************************** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 24 20:47:13 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA13123 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:25:52 -0700 Received: from emory.mathcs.emory.edu (emory.mathcs.emory.edu [128.140.110.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id UAA13115 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:25:30 -0700 Received: from toolz.UUCP by emory.mathcs.emory.edu (5.65/Emory_mathcs.4.0.8) via UUCP id AA24550 ; Mon, 24 Oct 94 23:24:45 -0400 Received: by toolz (5.65/1.35) id AA13401; Mon, 24 Oct 94 22:11:11 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Oct 94 22:11:11 -0400 From: todd%toolz.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (Todd Merriman) Message-Id: <9410250211.AA13401@toolz> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: A Question on Noise Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Everyone who joins my list sees the following posting, and it is automatically posted to the list every quarter. Right after I started using this document, the idiocy level went down noticably. It is a combination of suggestions sent to my by people on this list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Basic Netiquette Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List When sending messages to this mailing list, please keep the following suggestions in mind. They will help keep the list user-friendly for everyone. 1. Put the subject of your message in the "subject" line of the header. Messages without a subject line are filtered- out and removed automatically. 2. Keep each line in your message shorter than 70 characters. Longer lines can cause problems with some email systems. 3. When replying to another message, refrain from quoting entire messages (unfortunately, some mailers do this automatically when you use the "reply" feature). Paraphrasing or quoting selectively are both kinder to people's eyes and email boxes. 4. Most mailers cannot properly derive the list address from the mail message header when using the "reply" feature. Therefore, it is usually better to mail the follow-up yourself. 5. At the end of your message, include your name and your electronic mail address. Because it can be difficult to interpret email addresses, you are encouraged to include your institutional affiliation. 6. To signal humorous intent, use some sort of "smiley", such as :-). Facetiousness and sarcasm can be (and usually are) misunderstood in electronic communication. 7. Be extremely careful when replying privately to the author of a mailing list message. Many email systems will send your reply to the entire list if you simply use a reply command. 8. Please be considerate of others. Through inexperience or limited local software, list members may inadvertently violate Netiquett. A private message to the offender from an experienced friend or from the list owners is more appropriate than a public flame. 9. Blatant marketing statements are not allowed, but information on new products or major new versions is welcome. Keeping in mind size limits in some email systems, a maximum length of 4-5 screens is suggested. Prices may be included in these announcements, but announcements devoted to price changes are out of place. Also keep in mind that readers of this list will not appreciate the extreme hype characteristic of direct-mail marketing, and messages of that genre will be taken as insulting. 10. Personal messages, i.e. "Subject: Private to Jay," are inappropriate, and you should instead directly e-mail to the person you wish to receive a private message. 11. If your mailer has an auto-reply feature that can be enabled when you are on vacation or away from your site, do not enable that feature as it will flood the mailing list with bogus postings. 12. E-mail is not private. If you don't want Big Brother and other Republicans to read it, don't post it! 13. There is a different e-mail address for list administrative functions than the address used for posting articles. Please use the administratiive e-mail address for adds, changes, or deletions of list e-mail addresses. 14. Please re-read number 13 above. 15. Remember that both the readers and maintainers of this list have to pay for the resources that deliver this list to your e-mailbox. 16. No mail message may be longer than 60,000 characters in length. 17. Do not ask the List Administrator for a copy of the mailing list. The list is not given out to anyone, for any reason. 18. If, and when the list manager software goes haywire and sends you bogus postings, don't take it personally. The List Administrators do not run the list merely to annoy people, and you have no idea what a pain it is to administer a mailing list! This mailing list is semi-moderated through spot-checking, and the owners will contact people who don't follow these guidelines. If people abuse the hospitality of this forum, they will be removed from the list. Thanks for your support and cooperation. Please send comments about this document to: | Todd Merriman - Software Toolz, Inc. +1 404 889 8264 / Maintainer of the | 8030 Pooles Mill Dr., Ball Ground, GA 30107 / Software Entrepreneur's | todd@toolz.atl.ga.us / Mailing List From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 25 07:51:55 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA18283 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 07:23:45 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA18267 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 07:23:27 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIOWS38LOW002TR2@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:22:30 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HIOWRNPFYO00R18Z@AC.DAL.CA>; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:22:12 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA26259; Tue, 25 Oct 94 11:21:56 -0300 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:21:55 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Netiquette In-reply-to: <9410250211.AA13401@toolz> from "Todd Merriman" at Oct 24, 94 10:11:11 pm To: todd%toolz.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (Todd Merriman) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9410251421.AA26259@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1496 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The following posting is a good draft, but there are a couple of specific items that deserve comment: >Basic Netiquette >Software Entrepreneur's Mailing List >16. No mail message may be longer than 60,000 characters in length. This is the equivalent of 30 typed pages, which in my opinion is far too much. Majordomo defaults to a limit of 5 K (I think) which the administrator can override. That is 2-1/2 pages and in my opinion is a reasonable maximum for lists which support discussions. Of course, some lists are for documents and may want higher limits. >17. Do not ask the List Administrator for a copy of the mailing list. > The list is not given out to anyone, for any reason. Many lists do not follow this practice. Although the practice of making lists available is subject to abuse (a recent warning to the Fisheries list which I run about this drew inappropriately aimed fire on this list), I feel that facilitating communication is more important than hiding useful information. Furthermore, there are ways of getting lists without using the mailer software. Althose these holes can be closed by a knowledgable system administrator, be careful about telling your subscribers that their membership on the list is secret unless you are sure about this. -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 25 08:53:52 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA19140 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 08:41:09 -0700 Received: from bosnia.pop.psu.edu (barr@bosnia.pop.psu.edu [146.186.111.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id IAA19130 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 08:40:33 -0700 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by bosnia.pop.psu.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA21842 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:39:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199410251539.LAA21842@bosnia.pop.psu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Netiquette In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:21:55 -0300." <9410251421.AA26259@biome.bio.ns.ca> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:39:21 -0400 From: David Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9410251421.AA26259@biome.bio.ns.ca>, Bill Silvert writes: >This is the equivalent of 30 typed pages, which in my opinion is far too >much. Majordomo defaults to a limit of 5 K (I think) which the >administrator can override. Majordomo's default limit is 40000 bytes, overrideable on a list-by-list basis by the 'maxlength' config file keyword. (at least this is true in 1.9x, there were not defaults before that) --Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 25 18:51:30 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA26787 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:22:39 -0700 Received: from advantage.Advantage.com (gateway.advantage.com [134.87.158.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA26781 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:22:26 -0700 Received: from bugs_bunny by advantage.Advantage.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0M) id AA12072; Tue, 25 Oct 94 18:21:05 -0700 From: Paolo Bertoia Message-Id: <9410260121.AA12072@advantage.Advantage.com> Received: by bugs_bunny.Advantage.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0X) id AA07830; Tue, 25 Oct 94 18:21:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 94 18:21:05 -0700 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.87.1.RR) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.87.1.RR) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Configuring Reply_To with Majordomo Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello; I have just recently set-up Majordomo s/w to run some lists and unfortunately have been unable to discover which files to edit to reflect the following info: Precedence: bulk Reply-To: listName@DomainName Sender: listName@DomainName Comments: This is a list for ... I have read the doucmentation supplied with Majordomo 1.92 as well as the FAQs for the past few months and have discovered what needs to be changed in so far as sender and reply_to are concerned, but I have not been able to find out where changes need to be made. I have carefully read the comments in the listname.config, resend, majordomo.pl and majordomo.cf files but don't see any obvious place where the flags indicated in the documentation should be set. If someone out there could point me in the right direction with an example I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks. Paolo Bertoia __________________________________________________________________________ Paolo Bertoia | Advantage Computers Ltd. | "Respect Mother Earth and her healing Ph: +1.604.231.5700 | ways or trade away our children's days." Fx: +1.604.244.0437 | - Neil Young - From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 25 19:08:07 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA26798 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:23:46 -0700 Received: from duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (duticai.twi.tudelft.nl [130.161.159.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id SAA26791 for ; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:23:10 -0700 Received: (from winfave@localhost) by duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA05812; Wed, 26 Oct 1994 02:20:24 +0100 From: Alexander Verbraeck Message-Id: <199410260120.CAA05812@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> Subject: Re: Reply-to-sender [was Re: A question on ...] To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 02:20:23 +0100 (MET) Cc: winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl (Alexander Verbraeck) In-Reply-To: <2509652339A@cicei.ulpgc.es> from "Aldo-Pier Solari" at Oct 24, 94 06:10:46 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2102 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > ]1. Make sure the Reply-to: address for individual messages is the > ] SENDER of the message, and not the entire list ... > > Reply-to-list vs Reply-to-sender is a painful trade-off, I believe, > Sir. We have had both alternatives in FISH-ECOLOGY and great > ammounts of research information would go lost because of the > Reply-to-Sender flag. Well, I guess it all depends on the type of list you are managing. There are maybe even some rules that determine what to use when: a. If you are running a 100% open list with lots of messages flowing hence and forth, and you would like to stimulate discussion as much as possibe: use a NON-DIGEST, UNMODERATED, REPLY-TO-LIST list. Of course, make sure you have a good welcome message, and that you reply to "offenders". b. If you are afraid that users will be irritated by "me-too" type messages, and you would like to control the discussion, use a MODERATED, REPLY-TO-SENDER list. c. What you usually want is something inbetween: you would like to stimulate serious discussions, but without the "me-too-like" mail. I default the subscription to digested mode, and run unmoderated reply-to-sender lists. In the header of each digest, the user is told how to change to individual message mode. Only the more serious users will do so, resulting in less irritating messages. Furthermore, the 80% users who read the digests will be less irritated by the me-too-like messages which are part of a larger digest, just because they are easier to skip. Alexander Verbraeck ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Alexander Verbraeck Delft University of Technology Faculty TWI Dept of Information Systems PO Box 356, 2600 AJ Delft The Netherlands Tel: +31 15 783805 Secr: +31 15 784475 Fax: +31 15 786632/787022 e-mail: A.Verbraeck@is.twi.tudelft.nl OR winfave@duticai.twi.tudelft.nl http://www.twi.tudelft.nl/People/A.Verbraeck.html >dynamic modelling info ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 25 19:16:59 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA27264 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:56:23 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id SAA27258; Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:56:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199410260156.SAA27258@miles.greatcircle.com> To: Paolo Bertoia cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Configuring Reply_To with Majordomo In-reply-to: Your message of Tue, 25 Oct 94 18:21:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:56:18 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paolo Bertoia writes: # Hello; # # I have just recently set-up Majordomo s/w to run some lists and # unfortunately have been unable to discover which files to edit to reflect # the following info: Questions about a specific mailing list management package should be directed to that package's support mailing list (in this case, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is for more general discussions of issues related to managing mailing lists, not for support questions concerning any particular piece of software. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 26 17:17:05 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA10459 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Oct 1994 17:07:58 -0700 Received: from interport.net (interport.net [199.184.165.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id RAA10449 for ; Wed, 26 Oct 1994 17:07:43 -0700 Received: from [204.74.1.56] (kieran.port.net) by interport.net with SMTP id AA03202 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:05:06 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 20:06:43 -0400 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com From: kieran@interport.net (Aaron L Dickey) Subject: Listproc-specific list? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a listproc-users mailing list out there? I've searched high and low, but found no sign of one. TIA, Aaron ____________________________________________ kieran@interport.net Aaron Dickey Just a temporary .sig.... From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 27 11:51:30 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA17384 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 11:46:57 -0700 Received: from josaiah.sewanee.edu (josaiah.sewanee.edu [152.97.12.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA17379 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 11:46:12 -0700 Received: from [152.97.12.101] by josaiah.sewanee.edu with SMTP (MailShare 1.0b4); Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:46:26 +0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Jaeson.M.Engle@josaiah.sewanee.edu (Kyraden) Subject: Re: listserv Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:46:26 +0000 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I asked: >> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has >> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly >> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX >> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold >> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> TIA, >> and tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) replied: >you should ask list-managers@greatcircle.com Do any of you know the answer to the above question? TIA, ========================== ===== Jaeson M. Engle ===== === {Benedict 118 X2012} === == 735 University Ave., SPO == == Sewanee, TN 37383-1000 == ========================== =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ___________________WWW address:__________________ http://josaiah.sewanee.edu/ I seem to have lost the ability to _HOpenResFile and _FlushVol... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 27 12:50:02 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA17642 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:27:34 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA17637 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:27:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 15:26:55 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Jaeson.M.Engle@josaiah.sewanee.edu Subject: Mac-based list server Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9410271526.aa12063@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jaeson.M.Engle@josaiah.sewanee.edu wrote: >I asked: >>> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has >>> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly >>> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX >>> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold >>> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> TIA, >>> >and tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) replied: >>you should ask list-managers@greatcircle.com > >Do any of you know the answer to the above question? TIA, MailShare can do what you want. Check the Info-Mac mirror sites. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 27 13:59:14 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA18070 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:44:20 -0700 Received: from papaya.ummed.edu (root@papaya.UMMED.EDU [146.189.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA18065 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:44:16 -0700 Received: (from naleks@localhost) by papaya.ummed.edu with id QAA05418; Thu, 27 Oct 1994 16:25:57 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 16:25:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Norm Aleks X-Sender: naleks@papaya.ummed.edu To: Kyraden cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: listserv In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Oct 1994, Kyraden wrote: > >> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has > >> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly > >> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX > >> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold > >> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't think any mailing-list managers have been written for Mac OS, but you don't need to run your own. As long as you've got e-mail access, you can manage an MLM running on someone else's system. 1) You can subscribe to a commercial system (Netcom and many other fine companies) and use their MLM, which they offer to subscribers. (Netcom uses Majordomo.) 2) You can ask on LSTSRV-L if a LISTSERV site is willing to host your list for free. To subscribe to LSTSRV-L, send mail to LISTSERV@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU with a message body of "SUBSCRIBE LSTSRV-L Jaeson Engle". Once you've subscribed, send a message to the list telling the nice people there a) that your list is not for profit; b) how many people you expect to be on it; c) how much traffic you expect it to get; d) whether you want any archival space, for message logs or whatnot. Norm From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 28 01:17:12 1994 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA21757 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 01:05:05 -0700 Received: from sgi24.ctc.com ([147.160.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id BAA21751 for ; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 01:04:57 -0700 Received: from greatcircle.com by sgi24.ctc.com via UUCP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for List-Managers@greatcircle.com id AA14033; Fri, 28 Oct 94 04:01:26 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 94 04:01:26 -0400 From: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <9410280801.AA14033@sgi24.ctc.com> Apparently-To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ***** UNDELIVERABLE MAIL sent to meltsner, being returned by sgi24.ctc.com!root ***** mail: Error # 8 'Invalid recipient' encountered on system sgi24.ctc.com Received: from server1.ctc.com by sgi24.ctc.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI.AUTO) for meltsner id AA14024; Fri, 28 Oct 94 04:01:18 -0400 Received: by server1.ctc.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA05964; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 04:03:41 -0400 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQxnns14031; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 04:01:43 -0400 From: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA21740 for list-managers-digest-outgoing; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 01:00:07 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 01:00:07 -0700 Message-Id: <199410280800.BAA21740@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: List-Managers-Digest V3 #194 Reply-To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com Precedence: bulk List-Managers-Digest Friday, 28 October 1994 Volume 03 : Number 194 In this issue: Re: listserv Mac-based list server Re: listserv See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the List-Managers or List-Managers-Digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jaeson.M.Engle@josaiah.sewanee.edu (Kyraden) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 13:46:26 +0000 Subject: Re: listserv I asked: >> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has >> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly >> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX >> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold >> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> TIA, >> and tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) replied: >you should ask list-managers@greatcircle.com Do any of you know the answer to the above question? TIA, ========================== ===== Jaeson M. Engle ===== === {Benedict 118 X2012} === == 735 University Ave., SPO == == Sewanee, TN 37383-1000 == ========================== =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ___________________WWW address:__________________ http://josaiah.sewanee.edu/ I seem to have lost the ability to _HOpenResFile and _FlushVol... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer Date: Thu, 27 Oct 94 15:26:55 EDT Subject: Mac-based list server Jaeson.M.Engle@josaiah.sewanee.edu wrote: >I asked: >>> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has >>> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly >>> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX >>> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold >>> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> TIA, >>> >and tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) replied: >>you should ask list-managers@greatcircle.com > >Do any of you know the answer to the above question? TIA, MailShare can do what you want. Check the Info-Mac mirror sites. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html ------------------------------ From: Norm Aleks Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 16:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: listserv On Thu, 27 Oct 1994, Kyraden wrote: > >> I am curious if you happen to know if this or some other listserv code has > >> been ported to the Mac platform. I have a situation tht almost certainly > >> demands a listserv program to maintain. But, since I have very little UNIX > >> experience and no UNIX access for the time being, I would like to get ahold > >> of a program for the Mac. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I don't think any mailing-list managers have been written for Mac OS, but you don't need to run your own. As long as you've got e-mail access, you can manage an MLM running on someone else's system. 1) You can subscribe to a commercial system (Netcom and many other fine companies) and use their MLM, which they offer to subscribers. (Netcom uses Majordomo.) 2) You can ask on LSTSRV-L if a LISTSERV site is willing to host your list for free. To subscribe to LSTSRV-L, send mail to LISTSERV@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU with a message body of "SUBSCRIBE LSTSRV-L Jaeson Engle". Once you've subscribed, send a message to the list telling the nice people there a) that your list is not for profit; b) how many people you expect to be on it; c) how much traffic you expect it to get; d) whether you want any archival space, for message logs or whatnot. Norm ------------------------------ End of List-Managers-Digest V3 #194 *********************************** To unsubscribe from List-Managers-Digest, send the following command in the body of a message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": unsubscribe list-managers-digest If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the command; for example, to subscribe "local-list-managers": subscribe list-managers-digest local-list-managers@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "list-managers-digest" in the commands above with "list-managers". Compressed back issues are available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM, in pub/list-managers/digest/vNN.nMMM.Z (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number).