From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 3 04:55:33 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA08962; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:00:45 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA08956; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 03:00:34 -0700 Received: from acpub.duke.edu (mercury.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.100.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941001) with ESMTP id DAA15518 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 03:01:22 -0700 Received: from raphael.acpub.duke.edu (raphael.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.102.1]) by acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) with SMTP id GAA24604; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:00:46 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: John Younger Subject: Citing E-mail (summary) To: cni-copyright@cni.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SUMMARY of authoritative responses concerning e-mail citing & copyright [I have down-loaded the previous *AegeaNet* discussions about citing and copyright and can e-mail these to the interested] Friends! You may remember that about two weeks ago I wrote you to ask for advice concerning citing e-mail discussions & copyrighting them, that these concerns had come up in discussions over AegeaNet, a semi-professional & professional discussion group on pre-classical Greek matters. And that I represented a couple of other list-owners in the same general area. My colleagues & I had pretty much agreed on some basic principles that e-mail was public and, since it is in written form, therefore published; and that one needed to watch what one writes in that forum as in any other. I then turned to you, a copyright e-mail discussion group (cni-copyright@cni.org) and an e-mail list-owners discusion group (list-managers@greatcircle.com), and asked your advice. The responses are illuminating and I send them on to you. First, an abbreviated version of what I sent you; and Second, the responses (a selection), edited with credits given. ----- Friends! I have a question, which probably your lists have an already composed answer for. I manage a list on pre-classical Greek matters, with a subscription of about 400 members (say 50 communicate regularly, another 100 occasionally, the rest lurkers), mostly professional. The list is young, barely 9 monsths old. Some of the professional archaeologists have become concerned that their comments on the net will be cited in published (i.e., written in journals, etc.) articles. And others have become concerned that their comments will be plagiarized by others without citation, or will be taken as fact without verifying. To the last two concerns, I have written, that, as in life, there's little one can do to protect one's ideas from being taken literally and from just being taken. As to the first concern, I (and other list-managers in this general field of classical studies) have offered a citation-formula (e.g., "I am indebted for this idea to So-and-so, LIST, Date). But many subscribers have assumed that e-mail discussion groups were like casual conversations. I reminded the subscribers, however, that each posting went to over 400 people, most of whom were 'lurkers'. So, my questions are: are e-mail discussions like published comments? what is an accepted way to cite them? are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? ---- I repeat my four questions: > So, my questions are: > are e-mail discussions like published comments? > what is an accepted way to cite them? > are they automatically copyrighted or can they be copyrighted? > is there such a thing as being liable for what one says on the net? And here are some of the answers (with authors cited): 1) ARE E-MAIL DISCUSSIONS LIKE PUBLISHED COMMENTS? The rule of thumb is that you should not post anything to mailing lists or Usenet that you don't want your mother to know (or have posted on a billboard in your home town). scott@dsg.tandem.com The question should be: can something I say/write be cited Arguably yes. For example I can cite personnel letters (email or US mail) sent to me in articles. I can also cite discussions (whether they be in a bar or not). Also, I can cite talks/presentations in my papers. I think all aspects of citing email list traffic are covered under one of the above citation issues. John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu 2) WHAT IS AN ACCEPTED WAY TO CITE THEM? I'd rather the user verified the statement to be quoted with the author and then cited personal communication. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 Citation is a little difficult: who, date and Message-ID are the most reliable pieces of information after a context. Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk University of Liverpool, Computing Services One that I have seen looks like: Rouillard, John P., "Re: citations/copyrights of ...", via electronic mail on the mailing list, 16:44EDT, September 26, 1994. John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu I would tend to encourage using a Message-ID as well, as that field is known to be unique for each mailer. David Casti 3) ARE THEY AUTOMATICALLY COPYRIGHTED OR CAN THEY BE COPYRIGHTED? The truth of the matter is that *no one* knows. There are a lot of people who have shared a lot of speculation on this topic, but until a case arrives in front of a judge somewhere -- there is no case law on this matter. David Casti Per the Berne Convention, all writings are automatically copyrighted. No special notices are necessary. However, keep in mind that it has not yet been tested in court. Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers scott@dsg.tandem.com Anything in print (paper or electronically coded letters...) is copyrighted. If a person has an IDEA and gets it into PRINT of any sort, that print, which is the visible cloak of the idea is copyrighted. Only text can be copyrighted. Vocalized ideas need to be written down (song into scored music; speech into text). Copyright does not mean that material is not liftable, it means only that you can go to court over theft! BHARRIS@middlebury.edu Yes, everything you write is covered automatically by copyright. The question is: by posting do you give permission to repeat? Also remember that copyright protects utterances NOT ideas. If you don't want your ideas taken, don't utter them. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 4) IS THERE SUCH A THING AS BEING LIABLE FOR WHAT ONE SAYS ON THE NET? There was a case just about three years ago that settled part of this issue, specifically that the service provider [i.e., majordomo@acpub.duke.edu, and presumably the list-owner as well] was not legally liable for content. I do not recall hearing the outcome of the rest of the case, which would have established liability for electronically-disseminated publications. However, the safest route is to assume that, yes, you can be held liable for anything you say. Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers scott@dsg.tandem.com USENET news is in a similar situation. There have already been libel cases sucessfully brought which relied on electronic comments. It will probably vary form country to country. I personally would regard them as being in the public domain. Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk University of Liverpool, Computing Services Yes, you can be liable, but most likely the penalty is being thought a fool by others. Carl Drott College of Information Studies Drexel University Philadelphia, PA 19104 From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 3 14:59:28 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA10569; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:59:28 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA10563; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 07:59:23 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941001) with SMTP id IAA16655 for ; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:00:11 -0700 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA22716; Mon, 3 Oct 94 10:53:07 EDT Message-Id: <9410031453.AA22716@ig1.att.att.com> Date: 3 Oct 94 14:53:00 GMT From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: AT&T PersonaLink Services (attpls.net) contacts Content-Type: text Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I represent the next generation of newbies.-) As of last week, AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (domain attpls.net) is on-line. This is a communications service to be used with Magic Cap devices such as Sony's new Magic Link PIC 1000. The bottom line is, it's electronic messaging for people who are not very techno-literate. The users are new, and to some extent, so are the people who operate the service day to day. As with any other site, if you need to work out issues with "somebody who runs the network," the postmaster account at attpls.net is the right place to contact. If you try that and for some reason still have problems, please contact me at psrchisholm@attmail.com, psrc@pegasus.att.com, 908-576-3252 (voice), or 908-576-6406 (fax). I'm just a developer; but I'm a little more "mailing list literate" than other members of PersonaLink, so I might better appreciate some list issues. Paul S. R. Chisholm psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services (PersonaLink is a service mark of AT&T) I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. P.S.: It's pronounced "personal link," not "persona link." From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 17:27:42 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA13754; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:27:42 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA13747; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:27:33 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id KAA21928 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:28:15 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via SMTP (940627.SGI.8.6.9/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM> id KAA06846; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:26:44 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (931110.SGI/911001.SGI) for @sgi.sgi.com:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA25587; Fri, 7 Oct 94 10:26:42 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers List) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 2219 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. This is a problem for me as this particular user wants to sign up (very badly wants to sign up) to the Mystery mailing list that I run. She can successfully sign herself up (ie. mail gets out from her machine and she uses the correct Majordomo subscribe commands), but mail can't seem to get back to her machine at all. That doesn't stop her though -- she keeps trying! :-) She keeps getting on the list, and I keep taking her off cause her mail all bounces. What a mess! Here's the headers of the errors I keep getting back: >From MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca Mon Oct 3 06:51:48 1994 Received: from giraffe.asd.sgi.com by lunch.asd.sgi.com via SMTP (931110.SGI/940406.SGI.AUTO) for /usr/local/bin/filter -o /usr/people/close/.filter_errors id AA10154; Mon, 3 Oct 94 06:51:48 -0700 Received: from sgi.sgi.com by giraffe.asd.sgi.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for owner-mystery@lunch.asd.sgi.com id AA16526; Mon, 3 Oct 94 06:51:47 -0700 Received: from govonca.gov.on.ca by sgi.sgi.com via SMTP (940627.SGI.8.6.9/910110.SGI) for id GAA19134; Mon, 3 Oct 1994 06:51:45 -0700 Received: by govonca.gov.on.ca (5.57/Ultrix3.0-C) id AA02998; Mon, 3 Oct 94 09:52:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 3 Oct 94 09:52:18 -0400 >From: MAILER-DAEMON@gov.on.ca (Mail Delivery Subsystem) Subject: Returned mail: Internal error Message-Id: <9410031352.AA02998@govonca.gov.on.ca> To: Status: RO ----- Transcript of session follows ----- <<< RCPT To: <<< DATA mr_talker: OK, MRIF Service V0.2 554 weatherston@torv05.ndm.gov.on.ca... Internal error ----- Unsent message follows ----- [Deleted for brevity.] ********************** I've sent mail to postmaster@gov.on.ca without getting any answer. Should I've also tried postmaster@ndm.gov.on.ca and postmaster@torv05.ndm.gov.on.ca without success too. Any other suggestions? -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Note new domain: "engr".) The location may change, but I'm always at lunch. :-) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 18:32:08 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA14265; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:32:08 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA14259; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:32:03 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA22222 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:32:41 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id OAA15558; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:29:45 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:29:44 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Diane Barlow Close cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? In-Reply-To: <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the > mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, > multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. Try looking the domain up in the InterNIC database and contact whomever is listed for that domain. The NIC usually lists phone numbers too, so if your email is ignored you at least have an escalation path more civilized than cutting off all SMTP traffic from the evil host. (Althought athat *would* be my next recommendation if you can't get help from the domain contact.) David. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 18:42:44 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA14346; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:42:44 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA14340; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:42:38 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA22274 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:43:19 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA11660; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:40:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199410071840.OAA11660@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com (List Managers List), moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: What to do when Postmaster doesn't answer? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 Oct 1994 10:26:41 PDT." <9410071726.AA25587@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 14:40:38 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having problems with a particular user's address, for one of the > mailing lists that I run. I've written to postmaster at her site, > multiple times, but receive no answer. I'm not sure what to do next. Here's what I do in general: a) if postmaster@foo.bar.com fails, I try postmaster@bar.com. (likewise postmaster@a.b.c.d -> postmaster@b.c.d -> postmaster@c.d) (probably won't help for this case, because on.ca is probably not a site, just a domain) b) try to find the names of contacts elsewhere at that site via whois -h ds.internic.net "string" (I tried looking for "on.ca" and "ontario", didn't find anything that looked to be at that site) c) use nslookup to find the name of the person responsible for administering DNS at that site, and send mail to that person. (often it's a DNS problem anyway) % nslookup # # ask my local server where to find info for gov.on.ca. # > set query=any > gov.on.ca. Server: UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU Address: 128.169.201.2 Non-authoritative answer: gov.on.ca nameserver = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca nameserver = mcu.gov.on.ca Authoritative answers can be found from: govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 mcu.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.68.229.67 # # now point nslookup at one of the authoritative servers # > lserver govonca.gov.on.ca Default Server: govonca.gov.on.ca Address: 192.75.156.244 # # and do the lookup # > gov.on.ca. Server: govonca.gov.on.ca Address: 192.75.156.244 gov.on.ca nameserver = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 gov.on.ca preference = 0, mail exchanger = govonca.gov.on.ca gov.on.ca origin = govonca.gov.on.ca mail addr = postmaster.govonca.gov.on.ca ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ serial=940903, refresh=3600, retry=600, expire=3600000, min=3600 govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 govonca.gov.on.ca inet address = 192.75.156.244 ...so the address is: postmaster@govonca.gov.on.ca. It might not work, but it's something else to try. Good luck, -- Keith Moore NETLIB development group Computer Science Department / University of Tennessee at Knoxville 107 Ayres Hall / Knoxville TN 37996-1301 Let's stamp out message router in our lifetime. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 7 19:23:35 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id TAA14635; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:23:35 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA14629; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:23:28 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id MAA22441 for ; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:24:13 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id MAA06934; Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:22:45 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA12443; Fri, 7 Oct 94 12:42:19 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410071942.AA12443@znyx.com> Subject: Advice for a newbie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 12:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 823 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, we finally got our mandate to set up an Internet Mailing list. From reading the helpful comments from posters on this list, and my observation that most lists are run by majordomon, I believe we want to use that package for our mailing list. My questions are as follows: 1. What/where are the best documents to read for setting up majordomo? 2. Does anyone know where perl can be obtained pre-complied to run on ISC UNIX? 3. If not, are the sources anywhere in gcc compilable form? Thanks in advance, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 8 16:29:07 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA21781; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 16:29:07 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA21775; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:29:02 -0700 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (sylviac@netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id JAA00694 for ; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:30:00 -0700 Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id JAA18615; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:28:54 -0700 From: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras) Message-Id: <199410081628.JAA18615@netcom17.netcom.com> Subject: Approve To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 09:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Mood Matters X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 762 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Because many subscriptions were improper in form and because netcom allows me access to back logs for only a few days, I asked that my list flag be set to approve all subscriptions. Since then, I have had NO subscriptions of improper form to correct! Is there something in the approve program that is filtering that wasn't happening before? Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? Netcom is using both. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SylviaC@netcom.com v/f:408 426 5335 Sylvia Caras, 146-5 Chrystal Ter, Santa Cruz CA 95060 It is not up to you to finish the work, but neither are you free not to take it up. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 9 03:10:09 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA24547; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 03:10:09 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id UAA24533; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:10:00 -0700 Received: from [143.191.19.72] (host-72.greatcircle.com [143.191.19.72]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id UAA03380; Sat, 8 Oct 1994 20:10:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199410090310.UAA03380@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 23:10:07 -0500 To: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@miles.greatcircle.com (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Approve Cc: mcb@miles.greatcircle.com, brent@miles.greatcircle.com Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:28 10/8/94 -0700, Sylvia Caras wrote: >Because many subscriptions were improper in form and because netcom allows >me access to back logs for only a few days, I asked that my list flag >be set to approve all subscriptions. > >Since then, I have had NO subscriptions of improper form to correct! >Is there something in the approve program that is filtering that wasn't >happening before? > >Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? >Netcom is using both. I don't know the answer, but this message really should have been posted to Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM, rather than List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, since it's completely Majordomo-specific. I suspect you'd get more and better answers from Majordomo-Users, too. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 10 00:00:49 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA00576; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 00:00:49 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA00570; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 17:00:44 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id RAA06643 for ; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 17:01:43 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.205] ([140.174.160.205]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA25713; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:59:02 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:59:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199410092259.PAA25713@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: sylviac@netcom.com (Sylvia Caras), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Approve Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:28 AM 10/8/94 -0700, Sylvia Caras wrote: snip > >Is there a difference between majordomo 1.92 and the earlier version? >Netcom is using both. Speaking of netcom, I'ver been trying to get them to offer a digest option for my list, if this is dependent on the version of majordomo and they are using both maybe something can be done...Why are they using both ? The Bakalite From list-managers-owner Mon Oct 10 21:43:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA06319; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 21:43:37 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA06312; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:43:31 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id OAA10408 for ; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:44:20 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA24156; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:44:01 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA22777; Mon, 10 Oct 94 17:15:54 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410102115.AA22777@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Mail log account To: MNARANJO@lan1.esan.edu.pe (Martin Naranjo) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 17:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Martin Naranjo" at Sep 2, 94 10:38:27 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Codorus Creek X-Last-Cd: Joe Satriani, "The Extremist" X-Last-Book: P.J. O'Rourke, "Give War a Chance" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6979 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Does any of you know of a software (commercial or shareware) from >which I can get mail traffic statistics based on logfiles produced >by syslogd on UNIX systems running sendmail? Would you please >give me the name of the program or tell me the place or ftp server >where I can get it? I would appreciate your helpful comments very much. Here's something I tossed together this afternoon; it's not elegant, fast, or clever, but if your needs are simple, this may be enough to get the job done...or it may provide a jumping-off point for the efforts of others. It's a pair of awk scripts that work together to reduce the information in syslog to a report showing bytes/messages received/sent per user. Cheers, Rich # This is a shell archive. # Remove everything above and including the cut line. # Then run the rest of the file through sh. #----cut here-----cut here-----cut here-----cut here----# #!/bin/sh # shar: Shell Archiver # Run the following text with /bin/sh to create: # README # mail1.awk # mail2.awk # example.out1 # example.out2 # example.syslog # This archive created: Mon Oct 10 17:40:03 1994 # By: Rich Kulawiec (Ditka Policy Institute) cat << \SHAR_EOF > README This pair of awk scripts are a first-order attempt to provide a summary of mail traffic based on the information contained in "syslog". They're not particularly elegant (probably because they were hacked over the course of a couple of hours) and someone will probably reinvent them in Perl. :-) But they're a starting point, and might even be marginally useful. Usage: awk -f mail1.awk < /var/log/syslog | awk -f mail2.awk BTW, the reason I wrote this as two scripts was the the task of reducing the syslog to one-line-per-transaction seems distinct from the task of producing a summary report. I wanted to keep these two decoupled to allow for possible intermediate filtering, and to make modifications easier. So, included below you'll find both scripts, an example syslog fragment, and the output from running that through mail1.awk, and the output from running *that* through mail2.awk. ---Rsk SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > mail1.awk # mail1.awk # Copyright Rich Kulawiec, 1994. # # Takes as input the "syslog" file written by sendmail (among other things) # and generates as output a report containing one line per mail message, # showing sender, recipient, size, date/time, and message-id. # # Tested on: SunOS 4.1.3 # # Known bugs: Does not cope gracefully with mail messages which have # been forwarded to pipes, e.g. .forward files containing invocations # of the Elm "filter" program. Doesn't preserve chronological order. # # See also: mail2.awk # BEGIN {} / sendmail.*: from/ { from[$6] = $7; size[$6] = $8; next } / sendmail.*: to/ { to[$6] = $7; next } / sendmail.*: message-id/ { mid[$6] = $7; month[$6] = $1; day[$6] = $2; time[$6] = $3; next } END { for ( i in from ) { printf("%s %s %s ",month[i],day[i],time[i]) printf("%s %s %s %s\n",size[i],from[i],to[i],mid[i]) } } SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > mail2.awk # mail2.awk # Copyright Rich Kulawiec, 1994. # # Takes as input the output of "mail1.awk", which has one line per mail # message, and generates a report showing the total number of bytes sent # and received, as well as the total number of messages sent and received, # by each address it finds. # # Tested on: SunOS 4.1.3 # # Known bugs: Doesn't preserve the order in which users are encountered # in the input. # # See also: mail1.awk # BEGIN {} /.*/ { a = index($4,"="); b = index($4,","); if ( (c = index($5,"<")) == 0) c = index($5,"="); if ( (d = index($5,">")) == 0) d = index($5,","); if ( (e = index($6,"<")) == 0) e = index($6,"="); if ( (f = index($6,">")) == 0) f = index($6,","); if ( (a*b*c*d*e*f) != 0 ) { bytes = substr($4,(a+1),(b-a-1)); from = substr($5,(c+1),(d-c-1)); to = substr($6,(e+1),(f-e-1)); tobytes[to] += bytes tomsg[to] += 1 frombytes[from] += bytes frommsg[from] += 1 # printf("%s bytes from %s to %s\n",bytes,from,to); } else { printf("Bad input record is %s\n",$0); } } END { printf("Msg recv Bytes recv User\n") printf("-------- ---------- ----\n") for ( i in tobytes) { printf("%8d %10d %s\n",tomsg[i],tobytes[i],i) } printf("\n\n") printf("Msg sent Bytes sent User\n") printf("-------- ---------- ----\n") for ( j in frombytes) { printf("%8d %10d %s\n",frommsg[j],frombytes[j],j) } } SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.out1 Oct 8 11:24:04 size=22341, from=, to=, message-id=<9494949494.939393@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 08:27:10 size=931, from=, to=, message-id=<987654321.AA12345@kkkkkk.net> Oct 8 10:55:34 size=1854, from=, to=, message-id=<12345678.jjjjjjj.com> Oct 8 15:54:20 size=21442, from= to=, message-id=<4949494949.393939@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 06:00:01 size=3002, from=, to=, message-id=<000111222.AA3333@zzz.edu> SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.out2 Msg recv Bytes recv User -------- ---------- ---- 3 45637 person@host.domain 1 3002 somebody@thishost.edu 1 931 someuser Msg sent Bytes sent User -------- ---------- ---- 1 931 fffff%ggggg@hhhhh.net 2 43783 mailer-request@tttt.uuuu.org 1 1854 iii@jjjjjj.com 1 3002 xxxxx@yyyyy.zzz.edu SHAR_EOF cat << \SHAR_EOF > example.syslog Oct 8 06:00:01 gynko sendmail[10269]: AA10269: message-id=<000111222.AA3333@zzz.edu> Oct 8 06:00:01 gynko sendmail[10269]: AA10269: from=, size=3002, class=0 Oct 8 06:00:02 gynko sendmail[10271]: AA10269: to=, delay=00:00:02, stat=Sent Oct 8 08:27:10 gynko sendmail[10326]: AA10326: message-id=<987654321.AA12345@kkkkkk.net> Oct 8 08:27:10 gynko sendmail[10326]: AA10326: from=, size=931, class=0 Oct 8 08:27:11 gynko sendmail[10328]: AA10326: to=, delay=00:00:01, stat=Sent Oct 8 10:55:34 gynko sendmail[10384]: AA10384: message-id=<12345678.jjjjjjj.com> Oct 8 10:55:34 gynko sendmail[10384]: AA10384: from=, size=1854, class=0 Oct 8 10:57:23 gynko sendmail[10386]: AA10384: to=, delay=00:01:50, stat=Sent Oct 8 11:24:04 gynko sendmail[10400]: AA10400: message-id=<9494949494.939393@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 11:24:04 gynko sendmail[10400]: AA10400: from=, size=22341, class=0 Oct 8 11:24:05 gynko sendmail[10402]: AA10400: to=, delay=00:00:03, stat=Sent Oct 8 15:54:20 gynko sendmail[10574]: AA10574: message-id=<4949494949.393939@tttt.uuuu.org> Oct 8 15:54:20 gynko sendmail[10574]: AA10574: from= size=21442, class=0 Oct 8 15:54:21 gynko sendmail[10576]: AA10574: to=, delay=00:00:03, stat=Sent SHAR_EOF # End of shell archive exit 0 From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 16:42:03 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA12061; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:42:03 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA12055; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:41:58 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA14106 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:42:58 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA21569; Tue, 11 Oct 94 09:43:47 -0700 Message-Id: <9410111643.AA21569@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Tue, 11 Oct 94 09:43:47 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: 73F693D5 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 73F693D5 From: Alec Saunders To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 10 Oct 94 21:49:42 PDT Subject: Experience Managing Very Large Lists Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone got experience with managing very large lists. I run a moderated list with 11,000 members on it. Majordomo seems to be choking a bit on it, and we think the interpreted nature of PERL is partly to blame. Is there a better choice for a listserver for this size of list? Alec. From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 21:02:32 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA13177; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 21:02:32 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA13171; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:02:26 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id OAA14923 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:03:26 -0700 Received: by panix.com id AA18137 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.com); Tue, 11 Oct 1994 17:02:52 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 17:02:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Oliver Garfield Subject: Starting a list To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Oliver@panix.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I want to start a list. Can a Mailing list be combined with a bulletin board? Can a bulletin board be connected to the Internet? How? *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Oct 11 23:39:38 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id XAA13925; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:39:38 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA13919; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:33 -0700 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA15294 for ; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:40:33 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA22403; Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:40:00 -0700 Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists To: Alec Saunders cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9410111643.AA21569@netmail2.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 10 Oct 1994, Alec Saunders wrote: > Has anyone got experience with managing very large lists. I run a > moderated list with 11,000 members on it. Majordomo seems to be > choking a bit on it, and we think the interpreted nature of PERL is > partly to blame. Is there a better choice for a listserver for this > size of list? I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 minutes to remove a name from the list. It also doesn't handle file locking as efficiently as possible, though some patches have been posted for that (I'm waiting for them to be rolled into the next release). Overall I'm quite happy with it for maintaining the larger list - if a few pieces were recoded (or implemented in C, maybe?) it would be a dream. Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 12 16:44:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA18395; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 16:44:31 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA18389; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:44:26 -0700 Received: from epx.cis.umn.edu (root@epx.cis.umn.edu [128.101.83.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA17486 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:45:08 -0700 From: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu Received: by epx.cis.umn.edu; Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:44:14 -0500 Message-Id: <0012e9c125e028294@epx.cis.umn.edu> Subject: Which? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:44:13 CDT X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a product that would process class lists here at the University. Initially, we would like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- maybe 20-100 members. The membership lists would be updated weekly for the first six weeks of each quarter. The lists would be removed quarterly. The owner would control the membership list, and only members could email to the list. This product would be used on some Unix platform - we have not yet determined which. Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on this? Jane K. Gehan Computer & Information Services Internet: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu. University of Minnesota Phone: (612) 626-1810 From list-managers-owner Wed Oct 12 18:23:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA18941; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 18:23:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA18935; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:23:16 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id LAA17820 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:23:54 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id OAA24718; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:18:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Alec Saunders , List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 11 Oct 1994 16:39:57 PDT." Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 14:18:21 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at > adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box > doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 > minutes to remove a name from the list. Just for another data point...I manage a list that has around 4500 users, using software that I wrote myself. (no, you probably don't want it...it's very specialized for a particular group of users). But the software is written in C, and it takes about .5 seconds (measured) to add or remove a user on a moderately loaded SparcStation 2 running SunOS 4. The list of users is stored in an ordinary text file, and changes are accomplished by locking the file, copying the file to a new file and making changes on the fly, renaming the files so that the new replaces the old, and unlocking. So it sounds like it might well be worth the trouble to rewrite the majordomo list update code in C. Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 04:56:04 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA01010; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:56:04 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA01004; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:55:59 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id VAA00124 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:57:09 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA02918; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 17:02:37 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA29079; Wed, 12 Oct 94 11:11:36 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Which? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 11:11:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0012e9c125e028294@epx.cis.umn.edu> from "jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu" at Oct 12, 94 11:44:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1269 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am looking for a product that would process class > lists here at the University. Initially, we would > like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- > maybe 20-100 members. Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class UoM offers. I hope you realize that this will be a full time job no matter what list manager you use. > Does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts on this? I was just putting up my first mailing list, and was just about convinced to go with majordomo. Then some poster on this list advised me to look at SmartMail. To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. There are a number of feature differences between the two, but what did it for me is that SmartMail/procmail does not require perl, and was much lighter on our system resources. We host on a piddling 386 system with 16MB running ISC UNIX, but with SmartMail/procmail I think we could handle thousands of subscribers with no problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:08:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01423; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:08:56 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01416; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:08:51 -0700 Received: from get.wired.com (wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id WAA00327 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:10:19 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id WAA29701; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:09:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:09:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Which? To: Alan Deikman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Alan Deikman wrote: > To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. > > There are a number of feature differences between the two, but > what did it for me is that SmartMail/procmail does not require perl, > and was much lighter on our system resources. We host on a piddling > 386 system with 16MB running ISC UNIX, but with SmartMail/procmail > I think we could handle thousands of subscribers with no problem. Could you provide a pointer to this? Thanx. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:20:12 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01566; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:20:12 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01560; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:20:07 -0700 Received: from osiris.ac.hmc.edu (Osiris.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id WAA00495 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:21:33 -0700 Received: (from jared@localhost) by osiris.ac.hmc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.7) id VAA27844; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:21:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:21:36 -0700 Message-Id: <199410130421.VAA27844@osiris.ac.hmc.edu> From: Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu To: Keith Moore Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Alec Saunders , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists References: <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-Attribution: JRhine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk KM == Keith Moore >> I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at >> adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box >> doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 >> minutes to remove a name from the list. KM> So it sounds like it might well be worth the trouble to rewrite the KM> majordomo list update code in C. If your algorithm was implemented in Perl, is would be equally as fast. The slow operation of Majordomo list updates is due to other design problems. -- Jared_Rhine@hmc.edu | Harvey Mudd College | http://www.hmc.edu/~jared/home.html "Remember, only users lose drugs." -- from Richard Stueven From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 05:59:51 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA01762; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:59:51 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA01756; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:59:46 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id XAA00674 for ; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 23:01:12 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id WAA10964; Wed, 12 Oct 1994 22:59:16 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA02950; Wed, 12 Oct 94 23:21:16 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410130621.AA02950@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Which? (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 23:21:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1252 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian wrote: > On Wed, 12 Oct 1994, Alan Deikman wrote: > > To make a long story short, we went with SmartMail/procmail. > > Could you provide a pointer to this? Thanx. > > Brian OK: the following is from the README file. Procmail & formail mail processing package. Copyright (c) 1990-1994, S.R. van den Berg, The Netherlands. Internet E-mail: berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Snail-Mail: P.O.Box 21074 6369 ZG Simpelveld The Netherlands Procmail mailinglist: procmail-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de SmartList mailinglist: SmartList-request@informatik.rwth-aachen.de A recent version can be picked up at various comp.sources.misc archives. The latest version can be obtained directly from the ftp-archive at: ftp.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (137.226.225.3) as (g)zipped tar file: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.gz <160KB as compressed tar file: /pub/packages/procmail/procmail.tar.Z <224KB ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 11:38:47 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA04146; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:38:47 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA04139; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:38:42 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id EAA02405 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 04:40:09 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA02752; Thu, 13 Oct 94 07:39:21 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA05972; Thu, 13 Oct 94 07:39:06 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410131139.AA05972@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Which? To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 07:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9410121811.AA29079@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Oct 12, 94 11:11:35 am Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Spring Creek X-Last-Cd: Pete Townshend, "Empty Glass" X-Last-Book: "The Ultimate Run", William Endicott X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1413 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I am looking for a product that would process class >> lists here at the University. Initially, we would >> like to handle perhaps 500 lists of varying lengths- >> maybe 20-100 members. > >Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class >UoM offers. > >I hope you realize that this will be a full time job no matter >what list manager you use. I concur -- this is going to be a lot of work. Maybe the way to solve the problem is to use news instead, and create one newsgroup per class, making the instructor/TA the moderator. Of course, this would allow users who are not in the class to read the messages, but it seems to me that most class-related discussions don't particularly need to be closed. It also avoids the potential glut of messages -- if there are 500 lists of, say, 50 members each, and each instructor decides to drop the class a line on Monday morning, that's 25k messages. We used this solution at Purdue's Computing Center, starting about 1984 or so; it seems to work. If you do go this route, I'd recommend setting expire times on the class-related newsgroups at ~4 months (or however long your academic term is) and then manually expiring them all at the end of the semester. (If students know that the messages will always be there, they will be less likely to save copies in their own directories; at the message volume you're contemplating, this is an issue.) ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Thu Oct 13 12:27:15 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA04439; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:27:15 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA04433; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:27:10 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id FAA02599 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 05:28:24 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-5) id AA27971; Thu, 13 Oct 94 13:26:13 +0100 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOL.3) id AA16757; Thu, 13 Oct 94 13:24:52 +0100 Message-Id: <9410131224.AA16757@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 13:24:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: Keith Moore's message as of 1994 Oct 12 Wed 14:18. <199410121818.OAA24718@wilma.cs.utk.edu> To: Alec Saunders Subject: Re: Experience Managing Very Large Lists Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >> I manage a list with 17,000 users on it, and majordomo is pretty slow at >> adding and particularly at removing users from it. On our 486 BSDI box >> doing mostly mail and news for 2-10 people at once, it can take up to 5 >> minutes to remove a name from the list. >Just for another data point...I manage a list that has around 4500 users, >using software that I wrote myself. (no, you probably don't want it...it's >very specialized for a particular group of users). But the software is >written in C, and it takes about .5 seconds (measured) to add or remove a >user on a moderately loaded SparcStation 2 running SunOS 4. The list of SmartList on the other hand: - Does a fuzzy match between address and list before removing "the" address, i.e. on an unloaded sparc10, 4500 users, removing an address this takes about 1.6 seconds; for 17000 users this increases to 6 seconds (the rewrite is in-situ, only rewriting the tail, no new file created). - Large lists are presented to sendmail in chunks before redistribution (to ensure that sendmail doesn't choke on the size of the list, also parallelises the distribution through sendmail to a configurable extent). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). You are currently aboard a fully automated plane. There is no pilot on board. Rest assured, you have nothing to worry about... worry about... worry about... From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 04:51:36 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id EAA11869; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 04:51:36 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA11863; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:51:31 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id VAA09867 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:52:59 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.201] ([140.174.160.201]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA12334; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:48:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 21:48:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140448.VAA12334@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I find it quite annoying to see a zillion newsgroups created for UCB, and most of them are completely unused. This is a complete waste of resources and a nuisance when reading news, especially if you are using a reader where you have to tell it "no" for each new group. I once set a weight on the "n" key and walked away....I think using lists and making the instructors responsible for dealing with them is much more appropriate. News is supposed to be items of general interest, if all the participants in a forum are known by name and others are excluded, why make it so they have to look at it all the time? Of course, instructors may be computer illiterate and refuse to manage a list (it's not THAT hard), but in that case they probably wouldn't use the newsgroups anyway! Just my opinion.... The Bakalite >>Wow! 500 Lists? Let me guess -- one list for each class >>UoM offers. Maybe the way to >solve the problem is to use news instead, and create one newsgroup >per class From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 05:46:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id FAA12446; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 05:46:02 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA12440; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 22:45:56 -0700 Received: from noc4.dccs.upenn.edu (NOC4.DCCS.UPENN.EDU [128.91.254.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id WAA10725 for ; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 22:47:15 -0700 Received: from GYNKO.CIRC.UPENN.EDU by noc4.dccs.upenn.edu id AA21085; Fri, 14 Oct 94 01:46:31 -0400 Received: from katsuru.circ.upenn.edu by gynko.circ.upenn.edu id AA13929; Fri, 14 Oct 94 01:46:27 EDT From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) Posted-Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <9410140546.AA13929@gynko.circ.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Which? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199410140448.VAA12334@slip-1.slip.net> from "The Bakalite" at Oct 13, 94 09:48:10 pm Organization: Ditka Policy Institute X-Last-River: Spring Creek X-Last-Cd: Pete Townshend, "Empty Glass" X-Last-Book: "The Ultimate Run", William Endicott X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2447 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I find it quite annoying to see a zillion newsgroups created for UCB, and >most of them are completely unused. This is a complete waste of resources >and a nuisance when reading news, especially if you are using a reader >where you have to tell it "no" for each new group. I once set a weight on >the "n" key and walked away.... Hmmm, the newsreaders I use (rn, trn, strn) all allow one to hit a single "N" in order to acknowledge (and ignore) all new newsgroups. In campus environment where class designators tend to be stable (e.g. EE 311 is likely to keep that number for many years), the newsgroups need only be created once, so long-term users would only be mildly inconvenienced on one occasion. >I think using lists and making the instructors responsible for dealing >with them is much more appropriate. >News is supposed to be items of general interest, if all the participants >in a forum are known by name and others are excluded, why make it so they >have to look at it all the time? I don't know where you got the idea that "News is supposed to be items of general interest"; newsgroups may be as specialized as their audience allows. (In fact, I think the only remaining major difference between news and mailing lists is the propagation methodology. I figure that sometime in the next couple of years we'll all realize this and work out a hybrid which attempts to provide the best of both worlds. But I digress.) I don't understand your second comment; it's not necessary that all the students reading a class-related newsgroup know each other, nor is it necessary that they read every message -- this also applies if the instructors use a mailing list. >Of course, instructors may be computer illiterate and refuse to manage a >list (it's not THAT hard), but in that case they probably wouldn't use the >newsgroups anyway! Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not manage a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it at the time; and I don't think any of the packages now available would allow a near-computer illiterate person to do so now). However, they did seem to be handle Pnews enough to post articles -- leaving us (the computing center staff) to actually administer the news system itself. In short, we found news to be a much better fit to the large-scale sort of problem that was brought up here the other day; my hunch is that it's still a better fit. ---Rsk From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 00:35:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA13076; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:39:42 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id XAA13063; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:39:31 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id XAA11501; Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:40:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140640.XAA11501@miles.greatcircle.com> To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Which? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:40:37 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, this is a mailing list for mailing list managers. Let's leave arguments about netnews to the folks on USENET. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 07:47:13 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA13835; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:47:13 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA13829; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:47:07 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id AAA12297 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:48:32 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.209] ([140.174.160.209]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13107; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:44:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:44:30 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:46 AM 10/14/94 -0400, Rich Kulawiec wrote: >Hmmm, the newsreaders I use (rn, trn, strn) all allow one to hit a >single "N" in order to acknowledge (and ignore) all new newsgroups. Of course, provided you don't care about all the new groups that have been added which follow the 300 newsgroups that AAA university has just added.... > >I don't know where you got the idea that "News is supposed to be items >of general interest"; newsgroups may be as specialized as their audience >allows. A newsgroup is seen by all subscribers of the internet whenever they consult the Full Group List (provided the group is carried) and therefore it is easily accessible by almost anyone at anytime. A mailing list is invisible to all except the subscribers, except for occasional pointers to it in related posts. It is simply better suited to a group of people whose email addresses are known and who are all and the only participants to the discussion. I have no problem with a Newsgroup set up for UCB chem students that is available to anyone interested and also carries traffic for certain courses, what bothers me is that I (plus millions of others) have to look at a newsgroup, nay 300 of them! that we cannot participate in regardless of our level of interest unless we pay 6 thousand bucks a year tuition! Let them use a venue that is not so public. They could for example set up a BBS on one of the university computers that carries said traffic. Why send it out all over the world? I basically feel that the internet (it's origins notwithstanding) is the wrong medium for this stuff. If the students are hooked up and want to use it, fine, just don't clog up everyones News. (In fact, I think the only remaining major difference between >news and mailing lists is the propagation methodology Precisely my point! Each method of propagation favors certain uses. You wouldn't start a newsgroup for something only 12 people are interested in, would you? A list seems reasonable however. . I figure that >sometime in the next couple of years we'll all realize this and work >out a hybrid which attempts to provide the best of both worlds. I think there is a very useful separation between the two, and hybrids already exist. > I don't understand your second comment; it's not necessary >that all the students reading a class-related newsgroup know each other, >nor is it necessary that they read every message -- this also applies >if the instructors use a mailing list. No, all I am saying is that they are the only ones using it and they are all known to the university who can easily subscribe them all to a list. >Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not manage >a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it at the time; >and I don't think any of the packages now available would allow a near-computer >illiterate person to do so now). However, they did seem to be handle Pnews >enough to post articles -- leaving us (the computing center staff) to actually >administer the news system itself. I find this hard to believe, once a list is set up and automated (say with majordomo) and especially if there are no un/subscriptions during the whole semester, what is it exactly that they couldn't do? Are you telling me they can read news but not mail? > >In short, we found news to be a much better fit to the large-scale sort of >problem that was brought up here the other day; my hunch is that it's >still a better fit. > >---Rsk Well, if that's all that matters, I sure won't be able to stop you. Let me just make two more comments. 1) As citizens of the net we all owe each other a certain amount of respect, trust and compassion, I often find this on the net, and it always amazes me (the computer crowd has a long history of this and Shareware/Freeware is only one aspect of it). Creating 500 newsgroups that you *know* no one else besides the students will be able to participate in is just plain rude (for reasons outlined above). 2)It is my suspicion, after having been on a couple of class lists, that a list would be much more likely to generate a feeling of community and an active exchange of information among classmates. A list "feels" more private, and more personal, and people tend to read (or scan) every message. Regards, The Bakalite From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 07:56:31 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA13885; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:56:31 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA13879; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:56:26 -0700 Received: from slip-1.slip.net (slip-1.slip.net [140.174.160.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id AAA12344; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:57:54 -0700 Received: from [140.174.160.203] ([140.174.160.203]) by slip-1.slip.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA13142; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:53:41 -0700 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:53:41 -0700 Message-Id: <199410140753.AAA13142@slip-1.slip.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brent Chapman , rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) From: pbraunb@netcom.com (The Bakalite) Subject: Re: Which? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:40 PM 10/13/94 -0700, Brent Chapman wrote: >Folks, this is a mailing list for mailing list managers. Let's leave >arguments about netnews to the folks on USENET. Sorry, my goof. Anyone wanna continue this lets take it somewhere else. The Bakalite BTW, is there a way to intercept email that you've sent out? From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 04:23:46 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA15311; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:56:44 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id DAA15305; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 03:56:36 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id DAA13168 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 03:58:05 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id GAA09037; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:55:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:55:27 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: The Bakalite cc: Rich Kulawiec , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Which? In-Reply-To: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994, The Bakalite wrote: > You wouldn't start a newsgroup for something only 12 people are > interested in, would you? Sure, and then set the propogation to null -- or news servers in your own domain only. You can have all the local groups you want, and it isn't a problem unless you propogate them into the rest of the net. David. From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:26:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16249; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:26:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16243; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:26:02 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id GAA13781 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:27:26 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:38 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:36 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:26:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199410141326.23120.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199410140744.AAA13107@slip-1.slip.net> (pbraunb@netcom.com) Subject: Re: Which? Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please allow me to drag out this thread even further. This question was brought up by Chris Koenigsberg in July. I sent him this answer then: | At our site, netgroups are used extensively. So an undergraduate would | be member of the groups s217, 217-3, s142, 142-1 if he attends the | courses IN217 and IN142, in class 3 and 1 respectively. | | Now, via sendmail magic, the TA's can send mail to netgroup.142-1 to | reach their students, and the professor can mail netgroup.s142 to | reach them all. | | Netgroup membership also determines printer quotas and such things. | | Of course, this necessitates quite different routines when | registering your students at the beginning at the term, but it may | very well be worth it. The registering is done with computers | anyway, here. I might also add that for some courses, we also have newsgroups (like "ifi.in105") which can be used for questions in plenum. These newsgroups are of course not distributed outside the University -- I don't think there is much demand! :-) Kjetil T. (just a satisfied student) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:33:56 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16393; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:33:56 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16387; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:33:50 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id GAA13936 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:35:17 -0700 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:34 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:34:33 +0100 Message-Id: <199410141334.24558.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [olumide@adsznet.com: $$$ Internet Card] Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I received this on one of the mailing lists I maintain (dewy-fields -- about the Norwegian band Bel Canto) Has anyone else seen this? I returned his favour and gave him a sample binary (in 40 parts) which I hope he will find useful. Childish, I know, but I can't help it... Kjetil T. PS. I have the complete headers if you want them -- it does not look like a fake/spoof. | From: olumide@adsznet.com | X-Mailer: UUPlus Mail 1.51 | To: dewy-fields@ifi.uio.no | Subject: $$$ Internet Card | Organization: Automated Data Sciences | Date: Wed, 12 Oct 94 20:08:59 EST | | | $$$$WWW - This is an unsolicited mail. Please you do not have tomread | it. Thanks. | | | We market a quick reference Internet Card. If you are interested please | send your name and mailing address PLUS your Internet Address and a $10 | fee to: | | Internet Card | P.O.Box 1825 | Woodbridge, VA 22193 | | | Thanks. | | Oolumide Ola From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 13:35:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id NAA16424; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:35:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id GAA16413; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:34:58 -0700 Received: from worldlink.worldlink.com (worldlink.com [38.8.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id GAA13947 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:36:24 -0700 Received: by worldlink.worldlink.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-Worldlink) id AA07199; Fri, 14 Oct 94 09:34:52 -0400 Message-Id: <2991227069.1.ny001007@mail.nyser.net> In-Reply-To: <199410140640.XAA11501@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 09:32:49 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Aaron Goldsmith" Organization: UAHC Youth Division Subject: Help w/Listproc. v 7.0 X-Mailer: NYSERLink-DOS (3.3) Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I manage a list using listproc. 7.0. I've been trying to send commands via email to the listproc to change various configurations of the list. I keep getting error messages back because I have not properly typed in the commands in the correct sequence. If someone out there is familiar with using listproc 7.0 please write an example of how I would change the list so that one of its configurations reads REPLY-TO-LIST rather than REPLY-TO-SENDER. Thanxs. Aaron Goldsmith SYSOP List: UAHCAMPUS (nysernet) From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 14:59:48 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA17057; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:59:48 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA17051; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 07:59:44 -0700 Received: from cs.bu.edu (root@CS.BU.EDU [128.197.2.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id IAA14492 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:01:11 -0700 Received: from csa.bu.edu by cs.bu.edu (8.6.4/Spike-2.1) id KAA20400; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:56 -0400 From: tasos@cs.bu.edu (Anastasios Kotsikonas) Received: by csa.bu.edu (8.6.9/Spike-2.1) id KAA21644; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199410141458.KAA21644@csa.bu.edu> Subject: Re: Help w/Listproc. v 7.0 To: ny001007@mail.nyser.net (Aaron Goldsmith) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <2991227069.1.ny001007@mail.nyser.net> from "Aaron Goldsmith" at Oct 14, 94 09:32:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 738 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I manage a list using listproc. 7.0. I've been trying to send commands > via email to the listproc to change various configurations of the list. > > I keep getting error messages back because I have not properly typed in > the commands in the correct sequence. > > If someone out there is familiar with using listproc 7.0 please write an > example of how I would change the list so that one of its configurations > reads REPLY-TO-LIST rather than REPLY-TO-SENDER. > > Thanxs. > > Aaron Goldsmith > SYSOP > List: UAHCAMPUS (nysernet) > This is not a support list for 7.0; you need to contact CREN (If you have 7.0 you surely have CREN's email address). At any rate, the syntax is: conf list password reply-to-list Tasos From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 18:13:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA18837; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 18:13:50 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA18831; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:13:45 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id LAA15990 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:15:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199410141815.LAA15990@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3228; Fri, 14 Oct 94 19:11:41 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 3775; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:11:41 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:00:48 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Which? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 01:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Rich Kulawiec said: >Not so -- at Purdue, we had *hundreds* of instructors who could not >manage a mailing list (especially since there were no packages to do it >at the time; and I don't think any of the packages now available would >allow a near-computer illiterate person to do so now). It would of course be very difficult for a non-technical person to manage mailing lists based on sendmail configuration entries on his own. It would be ridiculous to even attempt it, in fact. But there are hundreds of non-technical people who manage LISTSERV mailing lists successfully, with the occasional help of a helpdesk person or LISTSERV maintainer. Don't take my word for granted; ask for testimonies on the LSTOWN-L list :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 11:26:02 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA18170; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA18164; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:58:22 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id JAA15441 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:59:50 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id JAA08692; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:56:57 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA16865; Fri, 14 Oct 94 10:20:25 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410141720.AA16865@znyx.com> Subject: Help with sendmail.cf To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:20:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 905 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, we put smartlist on-line two nights ago and now we have over fifty subscribers! (May not seem like much to you guys with five digit subscription lists, but remember I'm a newbie.) And lots of bounces. Well, there are several problems, some of which don't belong on list-managers because they are smartlist specific, but one thing we traced down was the sendmail.cf file we had was mangling Internet addresses. It didn't know all the foriegn country codes, such as x.y.ch and so modified the address to the local domain. Bouncebouncebounce. Does anyone know of any more sendmail.cf gotchas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 18:35:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id SAA19174; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 18:35:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id LAA19168; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:35:15 -0700 Received: from page1.com (page1.com [149.80.1.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id LAA16346 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:36:32 -0700 Received: from chronicle.page1.com by page1.com (NX5.67c/NX3.0M) id AA01318; Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:26:58 -0400 Received: from ccMail by chronicle.page1.com id AA782170409 Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:33:29 EST Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:33:29 EST From: "Tom DeLoughry" Message-Id: <9409147821.AA782170409@chronicle.page1.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Chronicle article on listservs Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (This was cross-posted to LSTOWN-L) Dear List Managers: The Chronicle of Higher Education is planning an article on the role that Internet mailing lists are playing in scholarly communication. I would love to hear from some of you who can report on the role you think your lists are playing in your respective disciplines. Please write to me at the address below. I'm interested in knowing why people take on the responsibilities of managing lists? How do you find the time? Do you get any professional rewards for doing it? Do you include your role as a list owner on you CV? Are your universities supportive or do they grouse about the burden the listserv puts on their computers? Be sure to let me know the name of your list, how big it is, how long it has existed, etc. I'd also like to know your name, title, and a phone number where I can call you. I appreciate any input that folks can provide. Sincerely, Thomas J. DeLoughry Senior Editor for Information Technology The Chronicle of Higher Education tom_deloughry@chronicle.page1.com ph: 202-466-1061 fax: 202-296-2691 From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 12:11:50 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA18557; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:33:59 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id KAA18551; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:33:51 -0700 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id KAA15759 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:35:16 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA16447; Fri, 14 Oct 94 12:48:38 EDT Message-Id: <9410141648.AA16447@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Original-Cc: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se Date: 14 Oct 1994 11:52 EDT Subject: re: [olumide@adsznet.com: $$$ Internet Card] In-Reply-To: <199410141334.24558.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme says: >Hello, I received this on one of the mailing lists I maintain ... >Has anyone else seen this? I returned his favour and gave him a >sample... Yes, I got this Internet Card "spam" too (though it was sent to the wrong address and only reached me and not my whole list). If you read the headers carefully, you notice that the organization "Automated Data Sciences," which probably makes and markets this card, has a UUCP connection via holonet.net. In other words, if you want to send a complaint to a postmaster somewhere, postmaster@adsznet.com probably won't be very effective, since adsznet.com appears to be the domain for the offending organization. However, someone at holonet.net may be a good place to send a complaint to, since they apparently are providing Internet connectivity for adsznet.com. (But I'd make the message to holonet.net somewhat more polite, since they are 1 or 2 steps removed from the offender.) Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 19:45:45 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id TAA19612; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 19:45:45 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id MAA19606; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:45:40 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id MAA16832 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 12:46:59 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.9c-UTK) id PAA11034; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:44:39 -0400 Message-Id: <199410141944.PAA11034@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Help with sendmail.cf In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:20:24 PDT." <9410141720.AA16865@znyx.com> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:44:30 -0400 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Well, there are several problems, some of which don't belong on > list-managers because they are smartlist specific, but one thing > we traced down was the sendmail.cf file we had was mangling Internet > addresses. It didn't know all the foriegn country codes, such as > x.y.ch and so modified the address to the local domain. Any sendmail configuration that depends on knowing a list of top-level domains is hopelessly broken. Even if it works now, new top-level domains are being added all the time. You need to throw that config file out and start afresh. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 21:30:06 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id VAA20167; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 21:30:06 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA20154; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:29:57 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id OAA17265 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 14:31:24 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HI9VLFTKW0001MP0@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:01 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HI9VKT35PC00LB3Z@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:06:36 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA25677; Fri, 14 Oct 94 16:56:10 -0300 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1843 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators. Because mailing lists make it possible for a single individual to control a potentially important avenue of communication, there is growing concern that this control could be abused and could lead to censorship and unfair restriction on access to information. I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a young foreign scientist. After a short time we had a falling out and he moved the list to another site, by simply copying all the addresses. Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us (although there was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being disruptive or otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). We now find ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an increasingly important avenue of communication in our field. I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to be a very desirable way to proceed. Perhaps we need a code of conduct for mailing list administrators, but how can it be enforced? Bill Silvert -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Fri Oct 14 22:19:39 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id WAA20398; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 22:19:39 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id PAA20392; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:19:34 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id PAA17470 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:20:57 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id PAA22777; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:18:02 -0700 Received: by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA19778; Fri, 14 Oct 94 15:41:35 -0700 From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Message-Id: <9410142241.AA19778@znyx.com> Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Oct 14, 94 04:56:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2098 Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have > simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to > be a very desirable way to proceed. Perhaps we need a code of conduct > for mailing list administrators, but how can it be enforced? I think you are just about out of luck unless your field has a overseeing body of some sort. Electrical Engineers have the IEEE. Lawyers have the BAR. Oceanographers have ... what? OK, suppose you have a respected and subscribed-to organization called the Fish Committee. You should have the e-mail addresses of a fair portion of the list you were excluded from and if you don't you should know someone who can help you get it. Then you should contact the Fish Committee and explain the situation at the next meeting, volunteer start the group's official mailing list. The rules of the list will be Committee sanctioned, and subject to checks and balances. If the Fish Committee really does represent the scientists in the field, the sanctioned list will become the known, important source of information and the old list will become eventually ignored. Most of the group would support this, because they would not want to be abusively excluded any more than you do. A mailing list distribution file is only private to the extent that it contains addresses of people who do not post to it. In other words, if I save all the e-mail I get from list-managers over a period of time, I should have the most important names that Brent has on his system anyway. If he kicks me off, I know other people he hasn't kicked off that would get the same information for me. Or I could sign on anonymously and just lurk. I haven't observed Brent being abusive, have you? > Bill Silvert Regards and good luck, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan Deikman | 510 249 0800 V | 48501 Warm Springs Blvd #107 | ZNYX alan@znyx.com | 510 656 2460 F | Fremont, CA 94539 USA | Corporation ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 00:35:20 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA21150; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:35:20 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA21144; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:35:13 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id RAA22215 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:36:35 -0700 Message-Id: <199410150036.RAA22215@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3680; Sat, 15 Oct 94 01:33:13 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 2407; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 01:33:12 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:49:42 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Bill Silvert In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) from List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) Bill Silvert said: Note: I'm in charge of the machine on which the list Bill refers to is run. I am *not* in charge of the list, just the machine on which it runs. But, because of that, I've been cc:ed on quite a lot of messages between Bill and Aldo. >I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. >Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a young ^^^^^ >foreign scientist. ^^^^^^^ In what way is it relevant that Aldo is young and "foreign"? Would it make any difference if he were Canadian? >After a short time we had a falling out and he moved the list to another >site, by simply copying all the addresses. Perhaps because you are a foreigner :-), you conveniently forget to mention that your list was not working well, and was moved just a few days after its creation. >Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of >other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us (although there >was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being disruptive or >otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). We now find >ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an increasingly >important avenue of communication in our field. I agree that Aldo is often too heavy-handed. I don't know the facts and can't comment on your particular gripe, but knowing Aldo you may well have a point. Still, I would like to point out that, since the list was moved in January, Aldo has been putting a tremendous amount of work in advertising the list, hunting around for relevant professional documents, talking to the press and obtaining permission to redistribute articles on the list, contacting personalities and making them join the list, etc. The reason the list now has over 900 subscribers and has become an "important avenue of communication" is that Aldo has been spending so much time working on it. Again, you may well have a point about the way he deleted you, but he did not simply steal the list from you as you seem to imply. There were maybe 200 subscribers when he relocated the list, and many were sending gripes about the quality of the service. Aldo made the list into what it now is, working sometimes until 4-5am. He isn't being paid for this work, and if he thinks you're being a pain in the butt and doesn't want you on his list, well, I may not agree with him, but it's certainly his prerogative. Incidentally, if you go around commenting on people's age and citizenship in public, and without having the common courtesy of sending them a copy, I can certainly understand why he gave you the boot. >I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to >the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a >wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are >frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. > >Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have >simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to >be a very desirable way to proceed. You complain about autocracy and censorship on a list which was started by the same person who is now running it (as opposed to someone who simply took over an existing, fully established list). Well, noone is preventing you from starting your own list with your own policy. I'm sure Aldo would agree to let you post ONE message to his list announcing the new one, so that people who don't agree with Aldo's policy may join your list. In fact, I seem to remember that you DID try this in the past, although there has been so much mail on this subject that I discarded most of it and can't check my archives. The reason this is "not practical" is that most of the current subscribers are perfectly happy with Aldo's occasionally heavy-handed but noise-free handling of the list. You don't have to like it, but I don't like the way you're attempting to blame Aldo for having created a highly successful list where you had failed and then running it as he sees fit. The laws generally allow people who create, say, a business from scratch to run it as they see fit if it succeeds. You don't have to like the way they run it, but you don't have to work for them either. This is called a "free country", and I always thought Canada was one. Being a technical person with your own machine, where Aldo barely knew how to send mail, you were in fact at an advantage. Aldo worked harder, and he won. You can take it gracefully, or you can waste people's time bitching around; it's your call. I just wanted to set the record straight for people who don't have any knowledge of the story. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 00:45:30 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id AAA21261; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:45:30 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id RAA21255; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:45:25 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id RAA22327; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:46:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199410150046.RAA22327@miles.greatcircle.com> To: Eric Thomas cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, Bill Silvert Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 15 Oct 1994 00:49:42 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:46:50 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas writes: # On Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:56:09 -0300 (ADT) Bill Silvert # said: # # Note: I'm in charge of the machine on which the list Bill refers to is # run. I am *not* in charge of the list, just the machine on which it runs. # But, because of that, I've been cc:ed on quite a lot of messages between # Bill and Aldo. STOP before we get into a flame war here... Bill's message obviously went to great pains to avoid mentioning the particular list in question, and the particular people involved. Given that, I don't think it was his intent to discuss this PARTICULAR situation, which I think would be beyond the scope of List-Managers. Can we please stick to the specific subject Bill brought up, which was a discussion IN GENERAL of lists that are important avenues of professional communication, the responsibilities of ownership/stewardship of such lists, professional oversight for such lists, etc. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 14:13:37 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id OAA28669; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 14:13:37 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id HAA28660; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 07:13:29 -0700 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [149.52.1.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id HAA02668 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 07:14:45 -0700 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id KAA25093; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 10:11:48 -0400 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 10:11:47 -0400 (EDT) From: David Casti To: Bill Silvert cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership In-Reply-To: <9410141956.AA25677@biome.bio.ns.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Bill, > An issue is raising its head in the scientific community which will > eventually be a problem for mailing list administrators. Because > mailing lists make it possible for a single individual to control a > potentially important avenue of communication, there is growing concern > that this control could be abused and could lead to censorship and > unfair restriction on access to information. Ah, somehow I don't quite see it that way. Your argument might work if there were a limited number of "frequencies" that your list could travel over (like in radio or TV broadcasting), or if it cost an exhorbitant amount of money to enter this type of media. Since neither of those things apply to mailing lists there is no case for an abuse of power. Indeed, there is no "power" to abuse! > I've run into this personally and the future implications are scary. Well, the implications may have scared *you*, but I don't find them at all disturbing. But, let's continue -- > Earlier this year I set up a mailing list in collaboration with a > young foreign scientist. After a short time we had a falling out and he > moved the list to another site, by simply copying all the addresses. This is a perfectly legitimate way for you to part company. > Several months ago he decided that he didn't want me and a number of > other scientists on the list and summarily deleted us As a list administrator, that was certainly his prerogative. A mailing list is not a public service, it is a private club. There is no reason to expect permanent or unlimited service from any list. > (although there was a lot of personal animosity, none of us were being > disruptive or otherwise interfering with the operation of the list). While this may be important to you, I do not see that it has any bearing on the situation as you have currently described it. > We now find ourselves cut off from a mailing list that is proving an > increasingly important avenue of communication in our field. That's very unfortunate. You should start your own list. You've already indicated that you have a list of subscribers that is a few months old -- that would be a good place to start. Add to that everyone else who has posted to that list in the last few weeks, and I think you have an excellent place to start. Besides, you could always subscribe again from another account and just keep your mouth shut. Unless this list admin cards every subscriber (and I only know about two lists which do that), then you have no reason to believe you are cut off from this information flow. > I find the implications of this alarming. Until now I had subscribed to > the hacker view that increased access to information channels would be a > wonderfully democratic influence, but I now realize that there are > frightening opportunities for autocracy and censorship as well. That's pretty high-falutin' language, mister. In fact, I have to smile when I read it because it sounds comically extreme. No one ever promised you free and unrestricted access to someone else's computer system (and in the case of a list administrator -- their time). You've forgotten that you were a guest. Unless you actually paid real money for your access -- not imaginary accounting offsets which might *maybe* eventually someday trickle-down to this admin -- you don't have a leg to stand on. For whatever reason, you wore out your welcome and were made to leave. Your attempt to drum up ethical support for a forced re-entrance to a forum where you were an invited guest is, in all honesty, sickening. > Although some of the other scientists who were cut off this list have > simply suggested that we set up a competing list, this does not seem to > be a very desirable way to proceed. Why not? (First, lose the notion of "competing"; you'll be setting up a list with "similar focus" or "common interest" but not in competition...) You just dismiss this alternative out of hand -- as though it was something obviously unacceptable or unworkable. Setting up your own list is definitely the best way for you to proceed. Not only will it give you a forum that no one else can take away from you, it will help you learn a thing or two about the trials and tribulations of being a list administrator yourself -- without a "young foreign scientist" to help you out. > Perhaps we need a code of conduct for mailing list administrators, but > how can it be enforced? It can't. And such a "code of conduct" would never be agreed upon anyway. It would also set a bad precedent which would create an entire class of objectors who would run their own systems in defiance... and we would have gotten exactly nowhere. Study the history of USENET for a reminder of how impossible distributed information systems are to control. I think a much greater priority is educating list members about their responsibilities in their role as invited guests, and helping them be good net.citizens rather than spoiled party crashers. David. From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 09:18:26 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id PAA29268; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 15:32:51 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id IAA29250; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:32:37 -0700 Received: from bonk.io.org (root@bonk.io.org [198.133.36.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id IAA03308 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:34:04 -0700 Received: (from mooseman@localhost) by bonk.io.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA23937; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:31:35 -0400 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 08:31:34 -0400 (EDT) From: mooseman To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List Managers Digest V3 #181 In-Reply-To: <199410150810.BAA26171@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am running a list off of a majordomo system and am having trouble getting it to send the replies to the list rather than the sender. I have tried going through the config file and have tried out 4 different newconfigs. What command line do I need to add to have the replies go to the list? \_\_\_____/_/_/ |--------------------------------------------| | mooseman@io.org | ] [ | May the MOOSE be with you! | [_] |--------------------------------------------| From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 10:19:52 1994 Return-Path: Received: from localhost by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id QAA29919; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:29:07 GMT Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-940930) id JAA29910; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 09:28:55 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with SMTP id JAA04059 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 09:30:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199410151630.JAA04059@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4232; Sat, 15 Oct 94 17:26:59 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 0950; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 17:26:59 +0100 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:52:58 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: List-Managers-Owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Some people have complained to me in private that I wasn't addressing the general issues in my reply to Bill's message. That's because I didn't find much at all that could be said about the general issue, but, fine, I'm perfectly willing to address it. A mailing list is a computer with access to network resources, both of which generally cost money, plus manpower. While the manpower comes mostly from the list owner, there is usually a technical type managing the computer and its software. In general, the person in question is paid by the organization that owns the computer (or owns the computer himself). So one could say that a mailing list is a certain amount of "resources" (hardware, software, network access, and manpower to run the setup), plus the list owner(s)' time. If the list owner does something which in your opinion is not appropriate, you have three options. If the resources are not owned by the list owner, you can contact the organization owning the resources and ask them if the list owner is abiding by their policy (unless it's a small organization, they probably have a policy for usage of their computers). If that doesn't work, and if the list owner is actually paid to run the mailing list, you can contact his employer and make essentially the same inquiry. Finally, if none of this works, you can try peer pressure. And, of course, you can always start your own list. All steps which, I trust, are fairly obvious. So obvious, in fact, that I don't see the point of bringing them up. In a free country, any individual is free to start a private club or association, and to use his own arbitrary judgment to select the members. There have been many cases historically where such clubs or associations have become major avenues for professional contacts. I can only assume that there have been cases where the owner of a club disliked a particular, otherwise professionally skilled individual, and denied him membership in his club. There's nothing one can do about it. The victim was free to start his own club, if he could afford the expense and had enough time to spare. There has never been a Supreme Council with a mandate to force citizens to allow specific individuals into their private clubs. I don't know about you, but I'd be very bothered if such a council were ever created. You have all the tools and resources necessary to create your own list. If you are persuasive and resourceful enough, I don't see any reason why you would not succeed in creating a second forum to complement the first one, and the community could only benefit from the added diversity. The current forum does not enjoy any particular, "unfair" advantage, such as access to an expensive resource not commonly available. It only enjoys the "fair" advantage of having become a popular, established forum through the hard work of its list owner. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:12:09 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) id QAA08535 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:12:09 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2-b.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA08530 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:12:04 -0700 Received: from localhost by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA09301; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:10:53 -0700 Received: from [192.9.200.100] (don_mac [192.9.200.100]) by ncc1701a.talarian.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA00730 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:08 -0700 X-Sender: don@ncc1701a Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:24 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) Subject: How do I automate messages that come to "info" alias? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to set up my "info@mycompany.com" alias so it will automatically do two things: 1) Archive the message to an archive file 2) Mail an automated text reply to the recipient (general info about the company and products, etc.) However, I don't want to have all of the other functionality associated with a list (subscribe/unsubscribe, etc.). Any suggestions? -- _____________________________________________________________________ Don Gray International Sales Director Talarian Corporation 444 Castro Street, Suite 140 e-mail (preferred): don@talarian.com Mountain View, CA 94041 Tel: +1-415-965-9066 x138 (direct) U.S.A. Fax: +1-415-965-9077 _____________________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:19:49 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) id QAA08702 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:19:49 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp2-b.netcom.com [163.179.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941006-1) with ESMTP id QAA08695 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:19:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.4/SMI-4.1) id RAA09197; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 17:07:28 -0700 Received: from [192.9.200.100] (don_mac [192.9.200.100]) by ncc1701a.talarian.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA00656 for ; Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:13 -0700 X-Sender: don@ncc1701a Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com From: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) Subject: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from the FAQ: >~Subject: How can I hide lists so they can't be viewed by 'lists'? >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Could you add a 'private_lists' parameter to the config file that would >> prevent people from seeing that the list exists (and from getting the >> description for the list). I think you've given us the ability to lock down >> pretty much everything else. > > >That is what advertise and noadvertise are for. The two keywords take >regular expressions that are matched against the from address of the >sender. A list display follows the rules: > >1) If the from address is on the list, it is shown. What list? > >2) If the from address matches a regexp in noadvertise (e.g. /.*/) the list > is not shown. Where do I put this "regexp in noadvertise"? > >3) If the advertise list is empty, the list is shown unless 2 applies. > >4) If the advertise list is non-empty, the from address must match > an address in advertise. Otherwise the list is not shown. Rule 2 > applies, so you could allow all hosts in umb.edu except hosts in > cs.umb.edu. > I want to set my ADVERTISE list equal to my subscriber list, so only the subscribers can get info about it. How would I do this? -- _____________________________________________________________________ Don Gray International Sales Director Talarian Corporation 444 Castro Street, Suite 140 e-mail (preferred): don@talarian.com Mountain View, CA 94041 Tel: +1-415-965-9066 x138 (direct) U.S.A. Fax: +1-415-965-9077 _____________________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 16:35:02 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id QAA08938 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:35:02 -0700 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA08928; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:34:59 -0700 Message-Id: <199410152334.QAA08928@miles.greatcircle.com> To: don@talarian.com (Don Gray) cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 14 Oct 1994 16:58:29 -0800 Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:34:56 -0700 From: Brent Chapman Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk don@talarian.com (Don Gray) writes: # I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people # from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. # # However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from # the FAQ: This is a Majordomo-specific question. Questions specific to a particular piece of mailing list software should be directed to that software's support list (in this case, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM) NOT to List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | Call or email for info about Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | upcoming Internet Security +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | Firewalls Tutorial dates From list-managers-owner Sat Oct 15 18:34:56 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id SAA00282 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 18:34:56 -0700 Received: from freeside.fc.net (freeside.fc.net [198.6.198.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id SAA00272 for ; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 18:34:48 -0700 Received: (from kevintx@localhost) by freeside.fc.net (8.6.8.1/8.6.6) id TAA26018; Sat, 15 Oct 1994 19:52:53 -0500 From: Admin/Support Message-Id: <199410160052.TAA26018@freeside.fc.net> Subject: How do I use the NOADVERTISE keyword? (reply) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 19:52:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: don@talarian.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 815 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll answer your first 2 questions, but majordomo-users@greatcircle.com would probably be the better place for this. > I see in the FAQ that I can use the NOADVERTISE keyword to prevent people > from seeing that a list exists, and from getting a description of the list. > > However, it does not say where this is to be used. Here is the text from It's in the .config file for that list. Check it out. > >2) If the from address matches a regexp in noadvertise (e.g. /.*/) the list > > is not shown. The default .config file shows: noadvertise << END END If you want to make a hidden group do: noadvertise << END /.*/ END kevin -- kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net (see also kevintx@paranoia.com) Freeside Communications (512) 339-6094 *Internet Access for the Future!* From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 14:24:07 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id OAA05611 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 14:24:07 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA05606 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 14:23:25 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HICQT6LCU8001S4B@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:22:05 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.ns.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.2-14 #2545) id <01HICQT1PR2800MOAR@AC.DAL.CA>; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:21:59 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.ns.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA10489; Sun, 16 Oct 94 18:11:42 -0300 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:11:41 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.ns.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9410162111.AA10489@biome.bio.ns.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2205 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I tried to avoid a flame war by not identifying the list, the host, nor the list administrator, but Eric has chosen to make the matter public. I still would like to avoid a flame war, but there is one point that Eric raises that I would like to reply to: >Date: Sat, 15 Oct 1994 16:52:58 +0100 >From: Eric Thomas >Subject: Re: Issues about List Ownership > >In a free country, any >individual is free to start a private club or association, and to use his >own arbitrary judgment to select the members. There have been many cases >historically where such clubs or associations have become major avenues >for professional contacts. I can only assume that there have been cases >where the owner of a club disliked a particular, otherwise professionally >skilled individual, and denied him membership in his club. There's >nothing one can do about it. The victim was free to start his own club, This may be true in Sweden, but in N. America (at least in Canada and the USA) the right to fair opportunity takes precedence over the right to discriminate. Women have successfully sued for access to universities and business clubs on the grounds that being kept out restricted their opportunity to compete fairly. Private clubs are no longer permitted to exclude blacks, Jews, etc. in most areas. Although the concept of spearate but equal still survives in some areas, it isn't the responsibility of those discriminated against to create the equal opportunity. The issue I addressed was one of some scientists not having equal opportunity to information channels, in this case one run by a major university. I was not disruptive and have signed (electronically) a pledge to conform to the operating standards of the list (this is part of the subscription procedure, and I have tried several times to resubscribe). Perhaps we should make this a concrete example. Suppose that I got kicked off the list because I was Jewish. Would that be OK? -- Bill Silvert at the Bedford Institute of Oceanography P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 Preferred InterNet Address: silvert@biome.bio.ns.ca HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://biome.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Sun Oct 16 15:26:20 1994 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) id PAA06012 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 15:26:20 -0700 Received: from Vela.ACS.Oakland.Edu (eabyrnes@vela.acs.oakland.edu [141.210.10.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.5/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA06007 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 1994 15:26:15 -0700 Received: by Vela.ACS.Oakland.Edu id AA05354 (5.67a+/IDA-1.5); Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:25:28 -0400 Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 18:25:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Byrnes Subject: Oh no! New guy questions! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List-Managers, I apologize for asking a newbie question but I've hunted around ftp.greatcircle.com and I've had no luck finding the FAQ's! I hope they are not embeded in the digests. I'm brand new to this and wish to start a list at our site. I've been to