From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 11:58:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA18117 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:53:48 -0800 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id WAA06808 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 1995 22:55:20 -0800 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id BAA19696; Mon, 30 Jan 1995 01:52:59 -0500 Date: 30 Jan 95 01:50:44 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: Final questions Message-ID: <950130065043_70611.410_FHG29-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, Tim Miller here. I almost understand this, now, thanks to the generous help of a number of people. (And a little homework on my own.) One or two (well, OK, three) final questions: 1--Let's say I set up a Majordomo list on Jazzie Systems, for example. I do not immediately register my domain name. Now let's say it looks like Jazzie Systems is going to go bankrupt (God forbid). Presumably I would have some warning. Would it be possible to register a domain name and alias at that time? 2--Is there normally a setup charge and/or monthly fee for registering a domain name and/or alias? 3--Can someone tell me the address I would use to subscribe to the LISTSERV managers' list? (I think it's called listserv-l or something like that.) Thanks a bunch, Tim Miller From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 15:56:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA28778 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:41:40 -0800 Received: from jazzie.com (NS1.JAZZIE.COM [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA28757 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:41:34 -0800 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0raB6f-000OWhC; Thu, 2 Feb 95 15:38 PST Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: Re: Final questions To: 70611.410@compuserve.com (Tim Miller) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 15:38:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <950130065043_70611.410_FHG29-1@CompuServe.COM> from "Tim Miller" at Jan 30, 95 01:50:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1755 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller wrote: > Now let's say it looks like Jazzie > Systems is going to go bankrupt (God forbid). Thanks for using me in your example, though in good conscience I feel the need to respond. ;-) IMHO organizations become bankrupt solely through poor financial management; bankruptcy is a highly unlikely outcome for Jazzie Systems. You do raise an important point, though, if you mean to ask what happens when a provider goes out of business (or declines to continue providing service for some other reason). If you plan ahead, it will be easy for you to switch providers at any time. When you register the domain, specify yourself as the administrative contact. That way you can notify the Internic yourself if you ever switch service providers. > Would it be possible to register a domain name and alias at that > time? It is always possible to register a domain name through the Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, so again it makes sense to plan ahead! > Is there normally a setup charge and/or monthly fee for > registering a domain name and/or alias? The registration is free. At the time of registration you specify who will (initially, at least) be providing name service for the domain. Some providers bundle this service as part of an overall package; others (like Jazzie Systems) provide it cafeteria-style. You could for example have one provider's nameservers publish an "MX" record that sends mail for your domain to some other provider's mail server. (Assuming both providers agree to this scheme!) -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com (206) 443-2028 Jazzie Systems From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 2 16:26:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 4 19:49:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA29536 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 4 Feb 1995 19:22:21 -0800 Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com (arl-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.7.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA07435 for ; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:59:10 -0800 Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id RAA04798; Fri, 3 Feb 1995 17:56:41 -0500 Date: 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: list managers list Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings, Tim Miller here. Thanks for all your help. Maybe now I can be of help to some of you. I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather inactive list that runs on The World. I presume this is not supposed to happen. I also presume it may not be entirely clear why it is happening, and that some listowners or listmasters might be interested in figuring it out. (It might have something to do with compuserve, which is where I presently--and much too expensively--receive my email.) I chose a message from Brian as an example, because it was short. I've included the header information for both messages. The first message is shown as having been sent on 2/2/95 at 4:17 PM and received at 9:03 PM. The second was "sent" at 4:36 PM and also arrived at 9:03 PM, same date. Best regards, Tim Miller Sender: brian@hyperreal.com Received: from get.wired.com by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA22220; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:11:26 -0500 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian **************************************************************** Sender: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Received: from relay2.UU.NET by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24271; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:34:43 -0500 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQybkk23604; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:33:32 -0500 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 04:19:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA03457 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:08:54 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (root@europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03452 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:08:51 -0800 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA09190; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:06:58 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11577; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:07:30 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:07:29 +0001 (EST) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> Cc: list managers list In-Reply-To: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I sure will be *very* interested to know the answer to this one. I have two majordomo lists on the world, and get complaints about the duplicate messages all the time. I'm not the most technical person, so I won't have the answer, but I sure will appreciate it being figured out and cleared up. -Sharon ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharon Shea Email:sshea@world.std.com PMPY Communications 72700.557@compuserve.com P.O. Box 79226 Phone:617-782-3226 Waverley, MA 02179 Fax:617-783-9181 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 05:19:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA03601 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:04 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03596 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:01 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id EAA09768; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:46:30 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:50:03 -0800 To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages Cc: list managers list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:55 pm 2/3/95, Tim Miller wrote: >I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in >pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. [elided] >From: Brian Behlendorf >To: Sean Shapira >cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Tim, unless I'm much mistaken, you received two copies of this mail because one was sent directly to you via cc and the other reached you because you're also subscribed to the list to which it was also cc'd. You should get two copies of this msg too, because I'm cc-ing the list and sending it to you directly. Make sense? dave From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 08:19:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA04235 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:02:16 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id IAA04230 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:02:13 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA13018; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 10:59:05 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502051559.AA13018@imsworld.com> Subject: Incorrect address To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 10:59:05 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What is the best way to handle incorrect address that a mailing list accumulates. Currently every message that gets sent out sends an error to the list-owner and the postmaster. Is there a way to not send the errors to the postmaster? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 13:20:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA06383 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:09:29 -0800 Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com (arl-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.7.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA06378 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:09:25 -0800 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id QAA16970; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:07:05 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 95 16:02:35 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950205210234_70611.410_FHG60-2@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller here. I got two copies of Sharon Shea's message, two copies of Dave Del Torto's message and one copy of Norm Aleks' message. Scrutiny of Sharon's headers suggest she sent the original to me with a cc to the list. My guess is that a lot of majordomo users are sending ccs to the recipient. Some may be doing it intentionally, others unintentionally. It might be that some email programs make it easy to do it unintentionally. If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us all some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the internet that explains headers. Maybe someone should forward it to the list. Cheers, Tim From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 15:19:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA09133 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:09:37 -0800 Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA03513 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 04:24:43 -0800 Received: from surt.ifi.uio.no (1232@surt.ifi.uio.no [129.240.76.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.8.1/ifi2.4) id for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:50 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by surt.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:22:49 +0100 Message-Id: <199502051222.24614.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <950203225556_70611.410_FHG92-2@CompuServe.COM> (message from Tim Miller on 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST) Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Tim Miller] | I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers | list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also | occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather | inactive list that runs on The World. : | From: Brian Behlendorf | To: Sean Shapira | cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM If you think about it (or study the headers), you'll realize the "problem" is at hyperreal.com. The mailer will send one mail to Sean Shapira, one to Tim Miller and one to the list. To hyperreal, the list is just another personal mail box. There are two ways of solving this. (Majordomo is just an example name for the software.) The mailer at hyperreal could ask greatcircle.com for the complete list of addresses on the list-managers list. This will work for this list, but others have "secret" membership. Anyway, lets say you got your list and removed dupes. Then your mail host would have to assume of Majordomo and send copies to everyone on the list. (Probably would cost you more money on CompuServe.) Majordomo would now just be a supplier of the mailing list, and the administrator would have problems because all the bounces went to the poster, not the Majordomo software. The second way makes more sense: Majordomo could be clever enough to parse the headers and see who would receive a direct copy, and remove the recipients from its internal list. Kjetil T. PS. There is an option to Sendmail to suppress duplicate mail, but naturally, that will only work locally. Ie. if Brent Chapman (@greatcircle.com) posts something to list-managers, no one should get more than one copy. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 15:21:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA08874 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:02:12 -0800 Received: from necco.cs.UMD.EDU (necco.cs.umd.edu [128.8.128.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA08869 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 15:02:09 -0800 Received: by necco.cs.UMD.EDU (8.6.9/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id SAA05330; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:00:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199502052300.SAA05330@necco.cs.UMD.EDU> To: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> cc: List-managers Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages In-reply-to: Your message of "05 Feb 1995 16:02:35 EST." <950205210234_70611.410_FHG60-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: Sun, 05 Feb 1995 18:00:15 -0500 From: Dabe "Dabe" Murphy Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, Feb 5, 70611.410@compuserve.com writes: > > My guess is that a lot of majordomo users are sending ccs to the recipient. > Some may be doing it intentionally, others unintentionally. It might be that > some email programs make it easy to do it unintentionally. More often than not, an MUA (Mail User Agent, such as 'Mail', 'pine', whatever CompuServe uses, etc... The program that actually lets a user read his/her mail) cannot differentiate between a mailing list and an individual user. Take this message, for example. When I received it it was "From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>" and "To: List-managers " When I reply, my mail reader won't know if "Tim Miller" happens to be a subscriber to "List-managers" or not so it will send the message "To: Tim Miller" and cc: a copy to "List-managers". If the software running List-managers (majordomo, in this case) were set up to do so, it could decide that when going through the list of people to whom it should resend the message (Those people subscribed to the List-managers list), it should skip Tim Miller. As a list manager myself, I don't know whether I'd choose this behavior or not. My personal belief is that the server shouldn't make these judgements; the user should have the ability to edit the To: and Cc: fields to fit his tastes (Berkeley Mail, for example, makes it difficult to REMOVE someone from the To: field of your message. I just now found the ~h escape in the manpage for the first time. I wonder what other esoteric features I've missed :-) ) I HAVE, however, kicked around the idea of incorporating a duplicate removal option into my own homebrew mailing list software. I'm just too lazy to add the 7 lines of perl code necessary :-) > If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us > all some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the > internet that explains headers. RFC 822. It's how mail is written. (Boy, I should be in Marketing) > Maybe someone should forward it to the list. It's almost 3k lines long, so I doubt everybody'll want to get a copy. Instead, if you can FTP, fetch: ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc822.txt If you can't use FTP for whatever reason, lemme know and I'll be happy to forward you a copy via private email. As a warning, it's pretty long and technical, but it needs to be. It defines a standard that's been around more than 12 years, and is still going strong. (As an aside, it's counterpart, RFC 821 describes SMTP, the Simple Mail Transfer Protocol. Together, these documents tell you more than you could EVER want to know about Internet mail (Short of knowing how to read sendmail.cf's, which I don't think ANYBODY can do ;-) ) Dabe -- dabe@cs.umd.edu | Bummed is what you are | Just because I agree with | When you go out to your | everything my boss says Hi Charlie | Car and it's been towed. | doesn't mean he agrees Finger for PGP 2.6 Key | "Contact" - Phish | with everything I say. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 16:19:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA10641 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:10:31 -0800 Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [198.4.9.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA10636 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:10:28 -0800 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24086; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 19:08:08 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 95 19:06:29 EST From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> To: List-managers Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Message-ID: <950206000628_70611.410_FHG64-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Tim Miller here, It hadn't occurred to me that subscribers are only getting duplicate messages when they are receiving a reply to a previously posted message. However, as I reflect upon it, that is indeed what is going on. In that case, it's probably not worth bothering with. Cheers From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 5 16:49:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA10919 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:22:11 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA10914 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:22:08 -0800 Received: from postmodern.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQybvl16955; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 19:20:15 -0500 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/GCA-Makitso-941228-mcb1) id AA27646; Sun, 5 Feb 95 16:14:49 PST Message-Id: <9502060014.AA27646@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 16:14:48 -0800 In-Reply-To: <199502051222.24614.surt.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: duplicate majordomo messages content-length: 1080 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > PS. There is an option to Sendmail to suppress duplicate mail, but > naturally, that will only work locally. Ie. if Brent Chapman > (@greatcircle.com) posts something to list-managers, no one should get > more than one copy. Well, actually this won't usually work when you are using mailing list software. The sendmail duplicate-suppression can only work when the actual addresses are available to sendmail at the time of alias expansion (i.e., direct aliases from the aliases file, or ":include:" list expansion). Typically, with mailing list software, the list alias will resolve to sendmail's "prog" mailer, since it is a pipe to a program (like Majordomo's "resend" script) that modifies headers, etc. By the time that program has done whatever it does and then re-invokes sendmail to expand the actual list and deliver the messages, the first copy of the message (the one with the individual address in the "To:" line) has already been delivered (or at least separately queued). -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 00:49:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id AAA18517 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:29:59 -0800 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id AAA18512 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:29:53 -0800 Received: from pb (pb.insite.co.uk [192.168.0.20]) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07210 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:22:25 GMT Received: by Local host with Microsoft Mail id <01B9D59B.95CA2760@Local host>; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:28:13 -0000 Message-ID: <01B9D59B.95CA2760@Local host> From: Peter Bowyer To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: RE: List-Managers-Digest V4 #14 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:28:02 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Umm.. Am I missing the point, or.... The message is 'cc'd to your address, as well as being 'To' the list address. SO assuming you're sub'ed to the list, you will get 2 copies..... Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> Date: 03 Feb 95 17:55:57 EST Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Greetings, Tim Miller here. Thanks for all your help. Maybe now I can be of help to some of you. I've noticed that most the email messages from the list-managers list come in pairs, i.e., duplicate messages. This is also occurring with the other Majordomo list I subscribe to, a rather inactive list that runs on The World. I presume this is not supposed to happen. I also presume it may not be entirely clear why it is happening, and that some listowners or listmasters might be interested in figuring it out. (It might have something to do with compuserve, which is where I presently--and much too expensively--receive my email.) I chose a message from Brian as an example, because it was short. I've included the header information for both messages. The first message is shown as having been sent on 2/2/95 at 4:17 PM and received at 9:03 PM. The second was "sent" at 4:36 PM and also arrived at 9:03 PM, same date. Best regards, Tim Miller Sender: brian@hyperreal.com Received: from get.wired.com by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA22220; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:11:26 -0500 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian **************************************************************** Sender: list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Received: from relay2.UU.NET by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.9/5.941228sam) id TAA24271; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:34:43 -0500 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQybkk23604; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 19:33:32 -0500 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00565 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:44 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA00560 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:13:41 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id QAA13506; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:10 -0800 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 16:11:13 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Sean Shapira cc: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com>, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Final questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Sean Shapira wrote: > It is always possible to register a domain name through the > Internic. Currently they do not charge for this service, and > I doubt they ever will. They do have a backlog of requests, > so again it makes sense to plan ahead! I actually hope at some point they do plan to charge - if it means they could update their brain-dead database system and improve responsiveness by hiring more people. Twice in the last 3 months my DNS registration has been messed up on account of incorrect information on other people's domain registration forms, a bug that could easily have been fixed if they had a better database system. Brian ------------------------------ End of List-Managers-Digest V4 #14 ********************************** To unsubscribe from List-Managers-Digest, send the following command in the body of a message to "Majordomo@GreatCircle.COM": unsubscribe list-managers-digest If you want to subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than the account the mail is coming from, such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the command; for example, to subscribe "local-list-managers": subscribe list-managers-digest local-list-managers@your.domain.net A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "list-managers-digest" in the commands above with "list-managers". Compressed back issues are available for anonymous FTP from FTP.GreatCircle.COM, in pub/list-managers/digest/vNN.nMMM.Z (where "NN" is the volume number, and "MMM" is the issue number). From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 04:49:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA22708 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:34:24 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA22703 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:34:21 -0800 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA02784; Mon, 6 Feb 95 07:32:25 EST Message-Id: <9502061232.AA02784@ig1.att.att.com> From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:21 EST Subject: duplicate majordomo messages Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: Tim Miller <70611.410@compuserve.com> > If I knew how to make sense of internet headers, I could have saved us all > some time. I'll bet there's a text file or FAQ file somewhere on the internet > that explains headers. Maybe someone should forward it to the list. Aside from the RFCs, which (as, Dabe "Dabe" Murphy pointed out, can be found in places such as ftp://ds.internic.net/rfc/rfc822.txt), your local bookstore may have a few new books on the subject. Anyone want to recommend one? If you have questions, and access to Netnews, comp.mail.headers is a good place hang out at. Paul S. R. Chisholm PersonaLink is a service psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ mark of AT&T AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services Paul_Chisholm@attpls.net I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 07:19:17 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA27501 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:08:56 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA27496 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:08:53 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16521; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:05:46 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502061505.AA16521@imsworld.com> Subject: Checking validity of e-mail addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:05:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sendmail has an option to see whether an address is deliverable or not. I was wondering if someone has incoroprated this into majordomo. I am getting people that are able to trick majordomo and end up subscribing addresses that don't exist. I then get an unknown host message delivered to both the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 07:49:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA27871 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:37:41 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA27866 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:37:36 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16729; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:34:29 -0500 From: root@imsworld.com (IMS Super User) Message-Id: <9502061534.AA16729@imsworld.com> Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:34:29 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Could someone please tell me what I have set wrong. It always sends the errors to postmaster and the owner. Here is what it send to the postmaster. Forwarded message: > From majordomo Mon Feb 6 10:31 EST 1995 > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:39 -0500 > From: Mailer-Daemon (Mail Delivery Subsystem) > Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown > Message-Id: <9502061521.AA16633@imsworld.com> > To: Postmaster > Content-Type: text > Content-Length: 885 > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 421 Host albnyvms.bitnet not found for mailer ddn. > 550 DR8192@ALBNYVMS.BITNET... Host unknown > > ----- Message header follows ----- > Return-Path: > Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AA16613; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:39 -0500 > Errors-To: mshavel > Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) > id AA16607; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 10:21:34 -0500 > Received: from apollo.cs.utwente.nl by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (5.0/csrelayMX-SVR4_1.0/RB) > id AA02472; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:22:48 --100 > Received: from duvel.cs.utwente.nl by apollo.cs.utwente.nl (4.1/RBCS-2.1) > id AA12071; Mon, 6 Feb 95 16:22:46 +0100 > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 95 16:22:46 +0100 > From: vraalte@cs.utwente.nl (Frank van Raalte) > Message-Id: <9502061522.AA12071@apollo.cs.utwente.nl> > To: photo@imsworld.com > Subject: darkroom setup > Sender: owner-photo > Precedence: bulk > From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 6 20:19:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA11983 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:57:28 -0800 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-2.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA11969; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 19:57:12 -0800 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:55:16 -0500 To: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum), list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:05 2/6/95, Bradley Birnbaum wrote: >Sendmail has an option to see whether an address is deliverable or not. I was >wondering if someone has incoroprated this into majordomo. I am getting >people that are able to trick majordomo and end up subscribing addresses >that don't exist. First off, a reminder: List-Managers is for general list management issues; questions about a particular list management package (including Majordomo) should be addressed to the appropriate package-specific list (in this case, Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Now, since this is a somewhat generic question, even though it's phrased in terms of Majordomo, I'll go ahead and answer it here. All Sendmail can really check is whether or not it can get rid of the message, not whether or not the message will get to its recipient; in other words, sendmail can only check the next link in the chain between it and the recipient. The test you're asking for wouldn't detect problems at some point past that next link, so the test has only limited value. I doubt anything like this will ever be added to Majordomo, because it would make Majordomo more Sendmail-specific, and a lot of people have been putting in a lot of work to try to make Majordomo _less_ Sendmail-specific. >I then get an unknown host message delivered to both >the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail >being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. That's easy: set up an alias like so: owner-list: list-owner, If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in Sendmail. -Brent -- == For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule == == of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM == ============================================================================== == Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates == == Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street == == +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 == From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 04:19:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA20689 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:53:10 -0800 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA20684 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 03:52:59 -0800 Received: from pb (pb.insite.co.uk [192.168.0.20]) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09852 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:45:27 GMT Received: by Local host with Microsoft Mail id <01B9D681.1EEEEFE0@Local host>; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:18 -0000 Message-ID: <01B9D681.1EEEEFE0@Local host> From: Peter Bowyer To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 11:51:12 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd add to Brent's answer that there's an option in Sendmail 8.6.9 (and maybe in other versions, I don't know) to send a copy of *all* errors to someone (eg to Postmaster) - from sendmail.cf: # who (if anyone) should get extra copies of error messages OPPostmaster Maybe this is contributing to the problem? Regards Peter -- Peter Bowyer peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk ----- From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses >I then get an unknown host message delivered to both >the list-owner and the postmaster. Does anyone know how to avoid the mail >being returned to the postmaster? Thanks. That's easy: set up an alias like so: owner-list: list-owner, If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in Sendmail. - -Brent From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 05:49:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id FAA21693 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 05:43:30 -0800 Received: from sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id FAA21688; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 05:43:22 -0800 Received: (from de5@localhost) by sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.6.9/8.6.9) id NAA07359; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:41:28 GMT Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:41:28 GMT From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199502071341.NAA07359@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM Version 5.72.L (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.11 XEmacs Lucid of Sat Sep 10 1994 on liasg5 (irix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Disclaimer: My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my employer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >That's easy: set up an alias like so: > > owner-list: list-owner, > >If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, >Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at >the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in >Sendmail. Which bug/feature is that? I don't have trailing commas on any of my aliases, and everything seems to work OK. Am I missing something? -Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 13:20:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA26097 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:00:26 -0800 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA26092 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 13:00:22 -0800 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id VAA01366; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:58:34 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA24293; Tue, 7 Feb 95 21:58:32 +0100 Date: Tue, 7 Feb 95 21:58:32 +0100 From: Per Starback Message-Id: <9502072058.AA24293@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing lists mentioned in books Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When I get subscription requests for the mailing list I administrate sent to the list instead of the administrative address I ask the new subscribers where they got information on the list, as I want to identify sources that mention the list address instead of the administrative address and try to get them changed. I often have a hard time to get that information from those new subscribers. If they answer my question at all they often just say that it was in a file they found or some book. Sometimes I get to know the title of the book. What I really want is an email address to the authors of the files or books so I can inform them that the information they provide isn't accurate or (perhaps more common) it is accurate, but it confuses newcomers. For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and the administrative address in those books. Many people who get their information from those books are absolute beginners vis-a-vis mailing lists and are bound to confuse the two addresses if given both of them. And I don't blaim them, because it *is* confusing for beginners. Instead I blaim the books that print that information, as I see no reason to give anything but the administrative message there anyway. Do those books mention email addresses of the authors? In case there will be future editions I may want to have my say. What books are there? Two that recent subscribers of my list have used are * The Complete Internet Reference by Harley Hahn and Rick Stout * Internet Yellow Pages Does anyone know of any email addresses to use for those books? Is it useless to bother about this? -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 19:49:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA02101 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:45:24 -0800 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-2.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.40]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA02096; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:45:14 -0800 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 22:43:19 -0500 To: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 13:40 2/7/95, Stephen R. van den Berg wrote: >>That's easy: set up an alias like so: >> >> owner-list: list-owner, >> >>If there is an "owner-*" alias for an alias that's having problems, >>Sendmail will send bounces there instead of to Postmaster. The comma at >>the end is to work around a bug (or "feature", depending on who you ask) in >>Sendmail. > >What kind of "feature" is this? If you leave off the comma, it sets the SMTP envelope sender (the "From " line) to "list-owner" (the alias expansion of "owner-list"), rather than simply "owner-list". Not a big deal, and maybe even a feature, in this case; in others, however, for instance if the alias expansion is an individual's email address, it can be a problem. Only some versions of Sendmail do this, though I don't know exactly which ones. -Brent -- == For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule == == of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM == ============================================================================== == Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates == == Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street == == +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 == From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 7 20:49:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA02631 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:36:19 -0800 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id UAA02626 for ; Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:36:16 -0800 Received: from [166.84.247.160] (gbs.dialup.access.net) by panix.com with SMTP id AA27484 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:34:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199502080434.AA27484@panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:37:05 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Harris-Braun) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >When I get subscription requests for the mailing list I administrate >sent to the list instead of the administrative address I ask the new >subscribers where they got information on the list, as I want to >identify sources that mention the list address instead of the >administrative address and try to get them changed. ... >For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and >the administrative address in those books. In "The Internet Directory" I did not print the list address, only subscription and contact addresses. Savvy users of course know that the list name followed by the domain-name of the subscription address is usually the posting address, but I don't mention that anywhere precisely to not cause the problems you write of. >Do those books mention email addresses of the authors? In case there >will be future editions I may want to have my say. What books are >there? >* The Complete Internet Reference by Harley Hahn and Rick Stout > >* Internet Yellow Pages > >Does anyone know of any email addresses to use for those books? Hahn & Stout's Yellow pages address is: catalog@rain.com >Is it useless to bother about this? >From my point of view, absolutely not. Any corrections and suggestions are more than welcome. I've been a long time lurker on this list just to gather info on what bothers list owners so that my book adds as little as possible to their troubles. Please send corrections for my book (The Internet Directory) to: directory@glassbead.com -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Harris-Braun gbs@panix.com The Internet Directory directory@glassbead.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 03:49:19 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA05927 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 03:47:34 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id DAA05922 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 03:47:25 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA11597 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:32:34 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12982; 8 Feb 95 05:05:12 CST (Wed) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id FAA12979 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:05:12 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502081105.FAA12979@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Mailing lists mentioned in books To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 05:05:12 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1985 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per Starback: > For example I think it's confusing to list both the list address and > the administrative address in those books. On ongoing struggle I've been having. You mentioned the Internet Yellow Pages, I surmise you're talking about the Rider Internet Yellow Pages. I literally hit the roof when it came out because I gave them permission to use the PAML, but I certainly didn't expect them to massacre it as badly as they did. And I did fire off a letter to them teling them how stupid it was to list the list address in their book. They appear to have semi-corrected this in the second edition, by listing the request address under the entry of "Address of the list". America On Line does the same thing. They list the posting address in their database. I told the guy who updates it that this was a Very Bad Idea. He supported it, saying that you need to show new users the two addresses so they could differentiate between the two. I was like you've obviously never run any mailing lists. Well, maybe he has, but it's still flawed logic and I've received complaints about it from list owners. Best I can do is tell them to complain to AOL. Getting back to the Internet Yellow Pages, there's another one, the McGraw Hill Internet Yellow Pages that I am currently unhappy with, to the point where I went down to the book store yesterday to get their address out of the book (I was unsuccessful, Waldenbooks didn't have a copy on the shelf). What they have done is listed just my address (arielle@taronga.com) as a source for mailing lists. They don't note who I am or what I have and I'm listed with a bunch of automated listservers. So now I'm getting mail about three times a day, consisting only of the line "send net-info/interest-groups". It is annoying and I'd love to give the editors of this book a ...um... correction. Oh Per, next time I'm at the bookstore, I'll see about getting an email address for you for those two books. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 09:21:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA09714 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:18:07 -0800 Received: from loiosh.kei.com (ckd@loiosh.kei.com [192.88.144.32]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA09709; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:18:03 -0800 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA00853; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:16:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:16:08 -0500 From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199502081716.MAA00853@loiosh.kei.com> To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Cc: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Checking validity of e-mail addresses In-Reply-To: References: X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BC> == Brent Chapman BC> If you leave off the comma, it sets the SMTP envelope sender (the BC> "From " line) to "list-owner" (the alias expansion of "owner-list"), BC> rather than simply "owner-list". Not a big deal, and maybe even a BC> feature, in this case; in others, however, for instance if the alias BC> expansion is an individual's email address, it can be a problem. BC> Only some versions of Sendmail do this, though I don't know exactly BC> which ones. I believe that all versions of sendmail V8 do; HP's sendmail has included some features of V8, but I don't know if this is one of them. I don't know of any other version that does this (yet). The usual idiom I see is: owner-list: list-request list-request: bob list: :include:/home/bob/list This will cause mail sent to "list" to have an SMTP envelope FROM of "list-request". The code is set up to only put the expansion of owner-foo into the SMTP envelope if it is a single item (which is why "list-owner," fakes it out); if there is more than one item, the literal "owner-foo" will be used in the SMTP envelope instead. It's a feature, IMHO, though it's not as well documented as one might like. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:20:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12491 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:51:19 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA12369 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:23:55 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14300; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:47 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502060220.AA14300@imsworld.com> Subject: Stupid users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've seen a user subscribe to a list this way: subscribe photo
to mailing list photo photo is the list. Majordomo does exactly that. It added the line
to mailing list photo to the photo list file. Not only did this right away send his welcome message to the photo mailing list but will cause major problems if not correct quickly by the list manager. The question that I was wondering is if anyway has come across this problem and how they have dealt with it. Why does majordomo take anything past the third word on a given line? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:22:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12542 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:53:14 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA22764 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 04:52:27 -0800 Received: from pegasus.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA08667; Mon, 6 Feb 95 07:50:32 EST Message-Id: <9502061250.AA08667@ig1.att.att.com> From: psrc@pegasus.att.com (Paul S R Chisholm) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 07:32 EST Subject: MIME-digestified mailing lists Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the mailing lists I subscribe to (Patterns) has moved to a digest format. Specifically, it has headers such as: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" which I guess is the standard way of encoding multipart messages in MIME. My personal preference would be to not get the mailing list as a MIME digest. I have a text-only interface to my current e-mail server, and use a MIME-compliant mailx that invokes metamail. This is less nice, IMHO, than pumping all the bits through my favorite pager and skipping ahead manually. People with wizzy MIME readers may prefer the new format. The first few messages had some problems, which seem to have been cleared up. (I've registered my preference with the list manager, and I've been heard. I respect the right of the list manager to run the list the way he or she wants.) Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? Paul S. R. Chisholm PersonaLink is a service psrc@pegasus.att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories/ mark of AT&T AT&T Mail !psrchisholm AT&T PersonaLink(sm) Services Paul_Chisholm@attpls.net I'm not speaking for the company or anyone else, I'm just speaking my mind. From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:24:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12760 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:57:47 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA12755 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 13:57:43 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA033090333; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:52:13 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 16:52:13 -0500 Message-Id: <950208165133_16391589@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: >America On Line does the same thing. They list the posting address in >their database. I told the guy who updates it that this was a Very Bad >Idea. He supported it, saying that you need to show new users the two >addresses so they could differentiate between the two. I was like you've >obviously never run any mailing lists. Well, maybe he has, but it's still >flawed logic and I've received complaints about it from list owners. Best >I can do is tell them to complain to AOL. Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we do. If your mailing list management software is incapable of blocking posts from non-members, perhaps you should change to software which does. While Gene hasn't run lists for very long, I've never had any problems with my posting addresses being available for the six years I've been running lists. If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who *don't* want their posting address included, I encourage them to write *me*, instead of Ms da Silva. I am more than happy to work with list owners to modify their entries to suit their desires while remaining within the general format used by the database. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:50:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA13757 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:12 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA13729 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:04 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA12681 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id OAA15495 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:24:52 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502082224.OAA15495@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Need reply-to (or equiv) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk (If this is in a faq, please tell me where I can find it.) I'm using majordomo 1.62 (with published security patches) and I want to force replies to got to the sender instead of the list. What can I do to make this happen? Thanks in advance for any help, Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 14:52:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA13809 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:27:53 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA12369 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 18:23:55 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA14300; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:47 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502060220.AA14300@imsworld.com> Subject: Stupid users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 21:20:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've seen a user subscribe to a list this way: subscribe photo
to mailing list photo photo is the list. Majordomo does exactly that. It added the line
to mailing list photo to the photo list file. Not only did this right away send his welcome message to the photo mailing list but will cause major problems if not correct quickly by the list manager. The question that I was wondering is if anyway has come across this problem and how they have dealt with it. Why does majordomo take anything past the third word on a given line? -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 17:49:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA18651 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:35:13 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA18646 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:35:11 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA02704 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:33:00 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id RAA06709 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:32:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:32:58 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502090132.RAA06709@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Need reply-to Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Forgot to add; I'm not on the list so please email directly if you have any suggestions on how to make replies go to the sender and not the list. Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 8 20:19:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA21854 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:53:08 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA21848 for ; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:53:01 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21972 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Wed, 8 Feb 1995 21:18:34 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA00397; 8 Feb 95 19:02:57 CST (Wed) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id TAA00394 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:02:56 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502090102.TAA00394@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Posting list addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 19:02:55 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1295 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have > asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we > do. You miss the point, David. It's not only bad netiquette, it's a bad idea all around. > If your mailing list management software is incapable of blocking posts > from non-members, perhaps you should change to software which does. I don't use a listserver for any of my lists, never have. It's a common misconception that all lists are run on listservers, one you seem to carry. I wasn't the one that originally complained about this, either. > If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who *don't* > want their posting address included, I encourage them to write *me*, instead > of Ms da Silva. I would rather they wrote you. I'm seriously not interested in fielding questions about problems created by AOL. I get a lot of mailing list related mail seemingly because I'm perceived as being more knowledgeable than many about mailing lists. As long as America Online continues to do things that go against time-honored Usenet and Internet traditions, (like publishing the posting address for a mailing list), then it's unlikely they will garner the same sort of reputation that I have. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:24:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01260 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:16 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01254 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:08 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA29346 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:35:10 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA17334; 9 Feb 95 10:17:41 CST (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id KAA17331; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:17:41 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502091617.KAA17331@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:17:40 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 489 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Please remove sci.psychology.digest from your mailing list immediately. It looks like they may have hit the mail-to-news gateways, using the "Mailing Lists Available in Usenet" article that's posted to news.announce.newusers. I say this because I received a cancel from panix even tho this article hasn't shown up on rec.food.recipes. It possibly didn't show up because that gateway is defunct (odd that it's still listed). Even so, it was an exceptionally uncool thing to do. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:29:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01077 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:15:27 -0800 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01052 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:15:19 -0800 Received: from stonewall.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa22510; 9 Feb 95 12:00 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:09 GMT In-Reply-To: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com's message 'List-Managers-Digest V4 #15' of Mon 6 Feb Reply-To: Nigel Whitfield X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #15 Message-ID: <9502091014.aa15781@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe I'm missing the point, but isn't the problem with duplicate copies nothing to do with the list management software at all. Surely it's simply that people reading messages are usign the 'reply to all' command on their mailer and thus generating two copies. If people know how to work their mailers (and all the ones that I've come across can manage it) then the problem wouldn't arise. To make the problem go away from a mailing list perspective, one solution is to re-write the headers on messages before they're sent out, so that the only address that will be found in the headers is the list address, or the originators address. This of course, means that people who can't figure their mail program out will reply either to an individual or to the whole list when they mean to do the opposite. Life's like that... Nigel. -- [Nigel Whitfield nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk] [For details on the uk-motss mailing list mail uk-motss-request@dircon.co.uk] [****** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ******] From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:35:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01001 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:30 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA00994 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:26 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id EAA04662; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 04:56:54 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:32 am 2/6/95, Paul S R Chisholm wrote: >Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I >get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do >people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if >so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? I use a version of Eudora which treats MIME digests in a very elegant way that I'm not allowed to describe, and it seems to me that this is definitely the trend of the future and that more and more software will want to be MIME-compliant. For example, we're actually working on the new PGP 3.x API to send all of its output in MIME-compatible format, since it's a very elegant way of dividing msg parts and extending PGP functionality easily. While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not actively working on implementing it. dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:40:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01281 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:58 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01271 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:19:50 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:59 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:58 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091716.AA25749=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: brown@eff.org (Dan Brown) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:16:58 +0100 (MET) Cc: pat@suntan.tandem.com, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502091523.KAA12642@eff.org> from "Dan Brown" at Feb 9, 95 10:23:33 am From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 893 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dan Brown writes: > All that aside, this was, ad far as the headers appear, posted from Panix: > > (picking a random copy of the spam...) ... > NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com > This, BTW, appears to have pushed one of my news partitions over its > limit and choked news here temporarily. Really kinda pisses me off. > A cross posting would have been lots gentler. Maybe. But shame - shame = shame, for it would still have cluttered all moderated news groups. That makes two major offenses. Is there really nothing civilized yet adequate we can penalize these people with? There should be. -- Annius V. Groenink | avg@cwi.nl | Private/Edith/ZFC: CWI, Kruislaan 413 | zfc@zfc.nl | P.O. Box 12079 1098 SJ Amsterdam | Room M233 ext. 4077 | NL 1100 AB Amsterdam The Netherlands | Phone: +31 20 592 4077 | Phone: +31 20 695 9901 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:44:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA00770 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:11:55 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA00762 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:11:49 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:26 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:26 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091425.AA25518=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:25:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9279.9502091356@cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk> from "Stevan Harnad" at Feb 9, 95 01:56:15 pm From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1003 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a > place to spam with ads. I am sure I speak for many other list-owners > who are determined not to allow their lists to be spammed with ads like > this. > > Stevan Harnad > Editor, PSYCOLOQUY I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible news group without the intervention of moderators. I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed the ad. If we don't stop this type of net abuse now we're going to have to live with it in the near future... From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:48:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01015 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:46 -0800 Received: from suntan.Tandem.com ([192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA00986 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:14:24 -0800 From: pat@loc201.tandem.com Received: from adm.loc201.tandem.com (admin_01.loc201.tandem.com) by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.940222) for moderators id AA10464; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:33 PST Received: from vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com by adm.loc201.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA18777; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:33 PST Received: by vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com (4.1/6nospool.930120) id AA11281; Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:32 PST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 06:45:32 PST Message-Id: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Reply-To: pat@tandem.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate > > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending > > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a It looks like this is another posting from Canter & Siegel. 10 border2-fddi0/0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.3.2) 71 ms 70 ms 71 ms 11 cpe2-hssi-1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.57.10) 72 ms 73 ms 72 ms 12 psi-mae-east-1.psi.net (192.41.177.235) 95 ms 81 ms 80 ms 13 core.net222.psi.net (38.1.2.4) 101 ms 82 ms 92 ms 14 serial.phoenix.az.psi.net (38.1.10.37) 122 ms 131 ms 111 ms 15 38.2.37.6 (38.2.37.6) 405 ms 134 ms 169 ms 16 cyber.sell.com (199.98.145.99) 166 ms 109 ms 132 ms Whois: sell.com Canter & Siegel (SELL-DOM) P.O.Box 13510 Scottsdale, AZ 85267 Domain Name: SELL.COM Administrative Contact: Canter, Laurence A. (LC42) postmaster@SELL.COM (602) 661-3911 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Network Information and Support Center (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@psi.com (518) 283-8860 Record last updated on 09-Aug-94. Domain servers in listed order: NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10 NS2.PSI.NET 192.35.82.2 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 09:58:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02536 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:41:42 -0800 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com (mgoodin@netcom22.netcom.com [192.100.81.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA02523 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:41:39 -0800 Received: by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id JAA17117; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:38:05 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:38:05 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Goodin Subject: Blanket subscriptions To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know if this is a problem at other sites, but there has been people who have been subscribing to every list run from the site I have several lists. This includes "private" lists. Are other list-managers having a similiar experience? Are there ways to filter out these multiple subscription? Mike Michael Goodin http://gagme.wwa.com/~mag mgoodin@netcom.com DRSMA Page - http://gagme.wwa.com/~mag/drsma.html From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:09:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02898 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:48:18 -0800 Received: from aspensys (aspensys.aspensys.com [198.77.70.104]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA02893 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:48:15 -0800 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA07061; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:46:34 +0500 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpinet.aspensys.com id AA792362906 Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:48:26 EST Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:48:26 EST From: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Meritt, Jim) Message-Id: <9501097923.AA792362906@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, Dave Del Torto Subject: Re[2]: MIME-digestified mailing lists content-length: 1538 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am on a net resources list that distributes as html - the files are immediately usable via mosaic. Useful! Jim Meritt ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Author: Dave Del Torto at SMTPINET Date: 2/9/95 12:42 PM At 4:32 am 2/6/95, Paul S R Chisholm wrote: >Are there many digestified lists out there moving to MIME digests? (I >get List-Managers as a digest; it doesn't use the MIME convention.) Do >people think this is "the wave of the future" for list digests, and if >so, when might it dominate plain old text digests? I use a version of Eudora which treats MIME digests in a very elegant way that I'm not allowed to describe, and it seems to me that this is definitely the trend of the future and that more and more software will want to be MIME-compliant. For example, we're actually working on the new PGP 3.x API to send all of its output in MIME-compatible format, since it's a very elegant way of dividing msg parts and extending PGP functionality easily. While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not actively working on implementing it. dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:17:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01817 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:30:31 -0800 Received: from charon.cwi.nl (charon.cwi.nl [192.16.184.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01812 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:30:27 -0800 Received: from mijt.cwi.nl by charon.cwi.nl with SMTP id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:55 +0100 Received: by mijt.cwi.nl id ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:55 +0100 Message-Id: <9502091727.AA25869=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:54 +0100 (MET) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502091617.KAA17331@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Feb 9, 95 10:17:40 am From: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) X-Face: "E3Hm]k]&:,OEP<{D2ixJf>-9[qOGLebNa0&cQyFL-a~)kTM3&&I"gFw=fJ]K%1IduGjOE` ZGu]&~G]QNGa7i/L!+#Xng<|+}HKYHj~5?fTInUEUh0$I1gBI7jrA!&_|e/pR1[cX:^xgJTPsrjA_9 m8Zli[|.-u{]+c1(6C7mL*m`/_J\>.{4!:g X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1162 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > It looks like they may have hit the mail-to-news gateways, using the > "Mailing Lists Available in Usenet" article that's posted to > news.announce.newusers. > > I say this because I received a cancel from panix even tho this article > hasn't shown up on rec.food.recipes. It possibly didn't show up because > that gateway is defunct (odd that it's still listed). The cancel didn't take effect because *it* didn't contain the faked 'Approved:' line :-) I simple posted the cancel myself, and I think it works. > Even so, it was an exceptionally uncool thing to do. It sure was. Glad they apologized (then again, they probably apologized a while ago, so there is no reason to assume that they won't try this again...) The cancel seemed to be originated by the people who posted the ad, rather than someone authorative at the site where it was posted... am I right? regards, -- Annius V. Groenink | avg@cwi.nl | Private/Edith/ZFC: CWI, Kruislaan 413 | zfc@zfc.nl | P.O. Box 12079 1098 SJ Amsterdam | Room M233 ext. 4077 | NL 1100 AB Amsterdam The Netherlands | Phone: +31 20 592 4077 | Phone: +31 20 695 9901 From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:22:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA04508 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:23 -0800 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [204.91.98.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA04492 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:14:14 -0800 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id NAA16547; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:09:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:09:40 -0500 (EST) From: David Casti To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Blanket subscriptions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Michael, > I don't know if this is a problem at other sites, but there has been > people who have been subscribing to every list run from the site I have > several lists. This includes "private" lists. > > Are other list-managers having a similiar experience? Are there ways to > filter out these multiple subscription? Yes. I often see this. Someone comes along and does a "lists" request against my server, and then attempts to subscribe to everything. That is a nontrivial decision which always attracts attention, since there are about 50 lists here. Usually they get bored (or drowned) quickly and unsubscribe by themselves. Any lists where privacy is an issue are already set to require the list owner's approval before subscription, so it hasn't been much of a problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Casti Pager: (800) 980-6227 Information Scientist http://www.casti.com/casti/David.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:24:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03398 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:16 -0800 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [204.91.98.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA03390 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:13 -0800 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id MAA16115; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:52:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:52:44 -0500 (EST) From: David Casti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: mcguire@digex.net Subject: sell.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, Didn't PSI (Marty or Bill, I think) make a public announcement when they extended service to the evil sell.com duo (more widely known as the Green Card Lawyers) that they would turn them off if they abused their service in this fashion? I remember seeing a press release about this... It was forwarded to several lists and showed up in cu-digest and risks, I think. Does anyone have a copy around? Perhaps it is time for the net.public to point out the problem to PSI. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Casti Pager: (800) 980-6227 Information Scientist http://www.casti.com/casti/David.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:25:44 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01645 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:26:31 -0800 Received: from eff.org (brown@eff.org [192.77.172.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA01634 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:26:26 -0800 Received: (from brown@localhost) by eff.org (8.6.9/8.6.6) id KAA12642; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:23:34 -0500 From: Dan Brown Message-Id: <199502091523.KAA12642@eff.org> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: pat@suntan.tandem.com Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:23:33 -0500 (EST) Cc: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> from "pat@loc201.tandem.com" at Feb 9, 95 06:45:32 am X-EFF_Membership_Queries_To: membership@eff.org X-EFF_General_Info: info@eff.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2586 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Message-Id: <9502091445.AA11281@vern.loc201.tandem.com.loc201.tandem.com> >To: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl >Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM >Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, > lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net >Reply-To: pat@suntan.tandem.com > > >> > If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate >> > net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending >> > anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a > > > >It looks like this is another posting from Canter & Siegel. > > >10 border2-fddi0/0.Washington.mci.net (204.70.3.2) 71 ms 70 ms 71 ms >11 cpe2-hssi-1.Washington.mci.net (204.70.57.10) 72 ms 73 ms 72 ms >12 psi-mae-east-1.psi.net (192.41.177.235) 95 ms 81 ms 80 ms >13 core.net222.psi.net (38.1.2.4) 101 ms 82 ms 92 ms >14 serial.phoenix.az.psi.net (38.1.10.37) 122 ms 131 ms 111 ms >15 38.2.37.6 (38.2.37.6) 405 ms 134 ms 169 ms >16 cyber.sell.com (199.98.145.99) 166 ms 109 ms 132 ms > > >Whois: sell.com >Canter & Siegel (SELL-DOM) > P.O.Box 13510 > Scottsdale, AZ 85267 > > Domain Name: SELL.COM > > Administrative Contact: > Canter, Laurence A. (LC42) postmaster@SELL.COM > (602) 661-3911 > Technical Contact, Zone Contact: > Network Information and Support Center (PSI-NISC) hostinfo@psi.com > (518) 283-8860 > > Record last updated on 09-Aug-94. > > Domain servers in listed order: > > NS.PSI.NET 192.33.4.10 > NS2.PSI.NET 192.35.82.2 > > All that aside, this was, ad far as the headers appear, posted from Panix: (picking a random copy of the spam...) bit.netmonth #2 [1] Path: eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net! + prodigy.com!panix!not-for-mail From: ccapc@cyber.sell.com (Consumer Credit Advocates) Newsgroups: bit.netmonth [1] GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Date: 9 Feb 1995 04:44:13 -0500 Organization: Consumer Credit Advocates, PC Lines: 117 Sender: ccapc@panix.com Approved: postmaster Message-ID: <3hco5d$dtl@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com This, BTW, appears to have pushed one of my news partitions over its limit and choked news here temporarily. Really kinda pisses me off. A cross posting would have been lots gentler. -- Online.. | | (Dan Brown brown@eff.org) _/| __/| _ |/ |/ Or... Flatline. _________________ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:26:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03461 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:58:02 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA03447 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:57:54 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA27712 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:19:54 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12735; 9 Feb 95 08:02:21 CST (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id IAA12732 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:02:21 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502091402.IAA12732@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Posting list addresses To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:02:20 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1352 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list owners have > > asked us not to include the posting address, and when asked to change it we > > do. I was thinking about this some more. I was recently on a mailing list that formed an adhoc committee to help solve the problems the list had been having. The main problem was a mass influx of America Online users that were posting things not within the charter of the mailing list. This mailing list had been set up as a support/discussion group for people of a specific sexual lifestyle and the new users were treating it like it were alt.sex.personals. When it was brought up that the primary reason for the AOL influx was because of the AOL mailing list database, most of the people on the committee were surprised to find out of the existance of this database, much less the mailing list was on it without their knowledge. The PAML is highly visible to Internet users. The AOL is not, at least not in any place that I know. I don't think it's very fair that you have this database that directly affects users hidden away where these people can't even see it, much less find out about it. I think the point I'm trying to make is it's hard for people to ask you to make changes when they don't even know something is there that might be in need of their input. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:28:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03258 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:54:53 -0800 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA03249 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:54:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199502091754.JAA03249@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9481; Thu, 09 Feb 95 18:49:21 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 5041; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:49:21 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:44:37 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Feb 1995 05:00:31 -0800 Dave Del Torto said: >While I have no perspective on *when* MIME might take over from text >formatted list mail, but on the freeware Eudora lists, people are >already beginning to ask how to use them. I do find it disappointing >that not all versions of LISTSERV and Majordomo yet support MIME >digests, but I expect that the developers are planning on that, if not >actively working on implementing it. The problem is not writing the code, which is just a few changes to the text format. The problem is the people who don't have MIME. It's easy for MIME people to say that everyone should use MIME. It's equally easy for non-MIME people to say that MIME users are still a minority and the MIME version of their mail program costs $$$ (yes, I know there are shareware versions, but in many companies people have to run commercial software, and the new version with the MIME features that people decided they don't really need costs upgrade $$$). Software to process the old-style digests is widely available. Mail readers that handle MIME digests are still few (there are many MIME mail readers that don't do anything useful with MIME digests). Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 10:30:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA03085 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:52:12 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA03079 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:52:05 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id KAA28230; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:42:25 -0500 Message-Id: <199502091542.KAA28230@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: PMDAtropos@aol.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Feb 1995 16:52:13 EST." <950208165133_16391589@aol.com> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 10:42:11 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Of the 1,110+ lists in our database, a *tiny* percentage of list > owners have asked us not to include the posting address, and when > asked to change it we do. What's not clear is how many of the remainder of the list owners have no idea that they are in your database (or why they get so many inappropriate posts from clueless AOL members...not that AOL members are any less intelligent than the normal population, but if you get enough inappropriate posts from joe-user@aol.com, it can sure look that way...) In general, new Internet users tend to think that everybody sees the same interface they see, so their own interface defines how things are "supposed" to work. > If there are list owners whose lists are carried in our database who > *don't* want their posting address included, I encourage them to write > *me*, instead of Ms da Silva. Since AOL isn't the only one with this problem, the net as a whole is better off if the list is maintained by someone independent of any particular service provider. ---- As to whether posting addresses should be listed, I've usually found it is okay to list both the subscribe and the posting address, as long as it is VERY CLEARLY indicated what each address is for: Send Subscription Requests To: info-mime-REQUEST@cs.utk.edu Send List Submissions To: info-mime@cs.utk.edu For lists that only accept postings from subscribers, it is sufficient to say so, and list only the subscribe address. Keith Moore p.s. For the lists that I maintain, I actually see about as many articles sent to the -request address, as I see subscribe requests sent to the list address. A lot of mail user agents or gateways can't manage to send replies to the right address... From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:22:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07501 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:19:43 -0800 Received: from nic.hq.cic.net (baseball@nic.hq.cic.net [198.108.58.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA07496 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:19:40 -0800 Received: (from baseball@localhost) by nic.hq.cic.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA19115; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:17:42 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:17:41 -0500 (EST) From: Dorian Rysling Kim X-Sender: baseball@nic.hq.cic.net To: Keith Moore cc: Annius Groenink , Stevan Harnad , ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-Reply-To: <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, this is all nice, but who's going to pay the lawyers' fees? C & S are rude, obnoxious pains, but we are sort of like the last of the Romans.. we don't have money to pay for our defense and soon we'll be beseiged by the barbarians. Oh wait.. Romans fell because they didn't want to pay for her defense.. Hmmm... -dorian Dorian Kim | Co-moderator rec.sport.baseball.analysis. Questions, comments, flames should be sent to baseball@cic.net and/or baseball-request@cic.net On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Keith Moore wrote: > > > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > > the ad. > > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. > > How do we get something like this started? > > Keith Moore > From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:52:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08254 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:43:46 -0800 Received: from inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com [16.1.0.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA08229 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:43:30 -0800 Received: from pobox1.pa.dec.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/10Aug94) id AA20948; Thu, 9 Feb 95 11:34:22 -0800 Received: by pobox1.pa.dec.com; id AA00625; Thu, 9 Feb 95 11:34:19 -0800 Received: from localhost by piedpiper.pa.dec.com; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul94-0558PM) id AA07431; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:34:18 -0800 Message-Id: <9502091934.AA07431@piedpiper.pa.dec.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 95 14:00:46 EST." <9502091900.AA18012@cartoon.MIT.EDU> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 11:34:17 -0800 From: Brian Reid X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think I am going to turn off Digital's mail-to-news gateway. I don't think it was used for this one, but it's just a matter of time. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 11:56:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08386 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:46:35 -0800 Received: from bio3.acpub.duke.edu (bio3.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.106.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA08381 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:46:31 -0800 Received: (from jfurr@localhost) by bio3.acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) id OAA04109; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:43:47 -0500 From: "Joel K. Furr" Message-Id: <199502091943.OAA04109@bio3.acpub.duke.edu> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: baseball@CIC.Net (Dorian Rysling Kim) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:43:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, mnemonic@eff.org In-Reply-To: from "Dorian Rysling Kim" at Feb 9, 95 02:17:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 801 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dorian Rysling Kim wrote: -> ->Well, this is all nice, but who's going to pay the lawyers' fees? C & S ->are rude, obnoxious pains, but we are sort of like the last of the ->Romans.. we don't have money to pay for our defense and soon we'll be ->beseiged by the barbarians. Oh wait.. Romans fell because they didn't ->want to pay for her defense.. Hmmm... I'm going to go out on a limb here, but... Speaking as a non-lawyer, it might be useful to get a legal defense fund together for a test lawsuit against some spammer; I'd be willing to contribute quite a lot of money and I imagine that we could get a big-ass chunk of money from a lot of other people, too. Then we'd sue someone as a class-action suit, and when the courts found against the spammers, we'd have a precedent on our side. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:02:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA06600 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:55:30 -0800 Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA06595 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 10:55:27 -0800 Message-Id: <199502091855.KAA06595@miles.greatcircle.com> To: ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:52:47 EST Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The problem is not writing the code, which is just a few changes to the > text format. The problem is the people who don't have MIME. It's easy for > MIME people to say that everyone should use MIME. It's equally easy for > non-MIME people to say that MIME users are still a minority and the MIME > version of their mail program costs $$$ (yes, I know there are shareware > versions, but in many companies people have to run commercial software, > and the new version with the MIME features that people decided they don't > really need costs upgrade $$$). Software to process the old-style digests > is widely available. Mail readers that handle MIME digests are still few > (there are many MIME mail readers that don't do anything useful with MIME > digests). > > Eric Why not allow the user to specify which type of digest they want? From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:08:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07002 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:03:35 -0800 Received: from MIT.EDU (SOUTH-STATION-ANNEX.MIT.EDU [18.72.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA06997 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:03:32 -0800 From: pshuang@MIT.EDU Received: from CARTOON.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA06987; Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:01:05 EST Received: by cartoon.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA18012; Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:00:46 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:00:46 -0500 Message-Id: <9502091900.AA18012@cartoon.MIT.EDU> To: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl Cc: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: Annius Groenink's message of Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:27:54 +0100 (MET) <9502091727.AA25869=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Subject: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) said: > The cancel seemed to be originated by the people who posted the ad, > rather than someone authorative at the site where it was posted... > am I right? No, Panix admnistrators have been the ones issuing the cancels; the *.answers moderators initiated a dialog with them almost immediately. Mara Chibnik appears to be spearheading the cleanup efforts; she already realizes that the initial round of cancels issued needed were missing Approved: lines to take effect in the moderated newsgroups which were spammed. Ping Huang, member of the *.answers moderation team (news-answers-request@MIT.EDU) From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:13:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07051 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:05:54 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA07046 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:05:49 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id NAA28583; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:59:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) cc: harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:25:25 +0100." <9502091425.AA25518=avg@mijt.cwi.nl> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:58:52 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > the ad. I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:22:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA09193 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:05:25 -0800 Received: from stl-17sima (STL-17SIMA.ARMY.MIL [150.211.20.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA09183; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:05:20 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092005.MAA09183@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:01:02 CST From: Rich Zellich To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It's nice that list-manager/digetstification software handles MIME, but what is more important to me as a subscriber to a *lot* of lists, is that an awful lot of us don't have mail-reading software that can handle MIME input. And you can't tell me "go get some modern mail software, then, silly" because *I'm* not the one in charge of anything remotely having to do with what services are acquired and maintained on any of our inhouse systems. Just a little perspective... Rich From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:29:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA09403 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:10:37 -0800 Received: from rand.org (rand.org [192.5.14.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA09387 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:10:30 -0800 Received: from monty.rand.org (monty-cc.rand.org [130.154.8.173]) by rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA10138; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:41 -0800 Received: from atlantis.rand.org (atlantis.rand.org [130.154.12.124]) by monty.rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA14324; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:40 -0800 Received: from localhost.rand.org (localhost.rand.org [127.0.0.1]) by atlantis.rand.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA07592; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:07:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> To: Keith Moore cc: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Reply-to: Brian_Leverich@rand.org Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 09 Feb 95 13:58:52 EST. <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 95 12:07:28 PST From: Brian Leverich Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -- Your message was: (from "Keith Moore") I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore ------------------ I don't think a legal remedy is worth pursuing, because it would take too long, cost too much, and likely fail. The courts tend to lag behind technology and they tend to handle new problems poorly. I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. That would choke a corner of The Net for a day or two, but it would probably make sites much more proactive about encouraging their users not to do wrong things. Sounds like panix is doing right things (at least after the fact) in the case at hand, but I think sell.com could probably profit from a few gigs of trash coming at them. It might hurt psi, but it's a little disappointing that psi is selling a feed to known net sociopaths like Canter and Siegal. -B --------- Dr. Brian Leverich Information Systems Scientist, The RAND Corporation Co-moderators, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L leverich@rand.org From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:52:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10540 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:37:57 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10511 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:37:44 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA28801; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:31:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199502092031.PAA28801@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brian_Leverich@rand.org cc: Keith Moore , Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 12:07:28 PST." <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:31:21 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We > should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, > sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers > for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the > site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. I don't think this will work very well. The problem is that this kind of action could very well be as damaging as the spams in the first place, and equally vulnerable to legal action. I'd love to see the net community find a way to solve this within itself, but the service providers are in a wierd position. If they disconnect a user for misbehavior, they might be seen as actively controlling content, and thus they might be held responsible for the content of everyone's posts. (just wait 'til somebody sends a nekkid picture of their kid and the service provider gets sued for transmitting kiddie porn.) Basically, sooner or later the courts will claim to have jurisdiction over the net, and the cops will back them up. I don't see that as desirable (I'd much rather have the net police itself), but I don't know what to do about it. So at this point I suspect the legal system is our best bet, but I'd certainly like to hear of other suggestions. Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 12:56:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10186 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:30:19 -0800 Received: from eff.org (brown@eff.org [192.77.172.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10181 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:30:15 -0800 Received: (from brown@localhost) by eff.org (8.6.9/8.6.6) id PAA28623; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:27:14 -0500 From: Dan Brown Message-Id: <199502092027.PAA28623@eff.org> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: Brian_Leverich@rand.org Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:27:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502092007.MAA07592@atlantis.rand.org> from "Brian Leverich" at Feb 9, 95 12:07:28 pm X-EFF_Membership_Queries_To: membership@eff.org X-EFF_General_Info: info@eff.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1706 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >-- Your message was: (from "Keith Moore") > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. > > How do we get something like this started? Keith Moore > ------------------ > >I don't think a legal remedy is worth pursuing, because it would take >too long, cost too much, and likely fail. The courts tend to lag >behind technology and they tend to handle new problems poorly. > >I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We >should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, >sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers >for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the >site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. > >That would choke a corner of The Net for a day or two, but it would >probably make sites much more proactive about encouraging their users >not to do wrong things. > >Sounds like panix is doing right things (at least after the fact) in >the case at hand, but I think sell.com could probably profit from a >few gigs of trash coming at them. It might hurt psi, but it's a little >disappointing that psi is selling a feed to known net sociopaths like >Canter and Siegal. -B I spoke with one of our legal staff and was reminded that there aren't really any very clear laws being broken here. So... legal action would (unfortunately) likely fail. -- Online.. | | (Dan Brown brown@eff.org) _/| __/| _ |/ |/ Or... Flatline. _________________ From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:06:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10266 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:32:28 -0800 Received: from yukon.cren.org (root@yukon.cren.org [198.76.81.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA10260 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:32:22 -0800 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by yukon.cren.org with ESMTP id <79759-1>; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:29:25 -0500 To: Keith Moore cc: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink), harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Stevan Harnad), ccapc@cyber.sell.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 13:58:52 EST." <199502091859.NAA28583@wilma.cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <26909.792361749.1@yukon.cren.org> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:29:10 -0500 Message-ID: <26910.792361750@yukon.cren.org> From: Marco Hernandez Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > I absolutely agree. This is the worst type of net-bashing I have seen > > so far---these people are not pretending to be innocent: they added > > an 'Approved:' header line so as to get through to every possible > > news group without the intervention of moderators. > > > > I think a severe punishment is in place here. I think the providers of > > cyber.sell.com should ban the entire site from the net for a few weeks, > > so they're forced to take measures against the people who distributed > > the ad. > > I think a class-action suit might be in order. Perhaps the net could > sue them for the cost of the disk space taken up by the number of > spammed copies, times the number of sites on Usenet. Even if it is > only a few dollars per site the total amount could be substantial. Hmm, Nasty things lawsuits.. They then usually lead to countersuits $$$ spent and in the end only the lawyers really win (But then again these folks are lawyers :O ) Bleak House ... The first thing is to really guage how much support there is for this kind of effort. Perhaps someone at a University with a Law School could get a little volunteer time from either students or faculty to see if there is even the basis to sue .. (Not that that ever stopped anyone).... What exactly was lost ? After all these resources are being put up by "entities" for public consumption and that is what they did (consume ...) Are we all willing to dig into our pockets ? Are other folks ... Can we get some kind of institutional backing ? (I use the we here very loosely ...) > > How do we get something like this started? > A person willing to coordinate and lead -- Keith ? :-) would be a start ... /Marco > Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:13:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA11179 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:50:38 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA11162 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:50:32 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA23085; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:49:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:49:37 -0500 Message-Id: <950209154935_17248656@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore wrote: >What's not clear is how many of the remainder of the list owners have >no idea that they are in your database (or why they get so many >inappropriate posts from clueless AOL members...not that AOL members >are any less intelligent than the normal population, but if you get >enough inappropriate posts from joe-user@aol.com, it can sure look >that way...) When a list appears in our database, it is because one of two criteria have been met: (a) we have contacted the list owner to verify the information we have or had in the past, or (b) the list has recently been publicly announced (on NEW-LIST or in a similar public forum). In all cases, we verify list entries a minimum of once every six months. In cases such as bit.listserv USENET gates or when an AOL member asks us to add a list they're on or interested in, we contact the list owner(s) *before* an entry is added to the database. As for why list owners receive clueless mail from America Online members, I believe it's generally due to members not getting the information from our database. In the case of Belief-L and GLB-News (the most active of my lists), the majority of misdirected commands come from .edu or small .com sites, and are usually the result of someone assuming that sending to listname-request is the same as sending to LISTSERV. Of course, with some 2,000,000 members, AOL is statistically going to provide more "clueless users". When I've asked our members why they have (for example) tried to join Belief-L by sending mail to belief-l-request, it's usually because they heard it from a friend or read it in a book. >In general, new Internet users tend to think that everybody sees the >same interface they see, so their own interface defines how things are >"supposed" to work. That's true, and unfortunate. Witness the number of people on VAXen who assume *everyone* has to send mail to in%"address". >Since AOL isn't the only one with this problem, the net as a whole is >better off if the list is maintained by someone independent of any >particular service provider. I don't entirely agree. We provide our database on AOL because it's accessible to members, and because we work at making sure the information provided in it is correct -- *we* go after the information, rather than letting the information trickle into us. Because so many of our members don't understand anything at all about the Internet, we provide more information than you'd find in a 'typical' list-of-lists, and it's geared towards AOL members. >As to whether posting addresses should be listed, I've usually found >it is okay to list both the subscribe and the posting address, as long >as it is VERY CLEARLY indicated what each address is for: > >Send Subscription Requests To: info-mime-REQUEST@cs.utk.edu >Send List Submissions To: info-mime@cs.utk.edu > >For lists that only accept postings from subscribers, it is sufficient >to say so, and list only the subscribe address. The typical information included in our database reads (using Belief-L as an example): To subscribe to this list, send e-mail to LISTSERV@brownvm.brown.edu; in the body of the message, type SUBSCRIBE BELIEF-L followed by your real name. For example, SUBSCRIBE BELIEF-L Jane Q. User. To unsubscribe from this list, send the command UNSUBSCRIBE BELIEF-L in e-mail to LISTSERV@brownvm.brown.edu. Send all other list-related commands to LISTSERV@brownvm.brown.edu. For assistance, send the command HELP. Send all articles to BELIEF-L@brownvm.brown.edu. As I've written before, we are more than willing to work with any and all list owners to either provide information in our database or make sure that the information provided is accurate. One of the reasons we're providing this database is to help cut down on the number of problems AOL members have (and thus, list owners have). --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:23:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12794 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:17:06 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA12789 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:17:02 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA10125; Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:06:31 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29673; Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:47:07 EST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:47:07 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502092047.AA29673@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: interfaces... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In general, new Internet users tend to think that everybody sees the >same interface they see, so their own interface defines how things are >"supposed" to work. No kidding - one AOL user asked me (in email): "Gee, what did you guys do before AOL invented the Internet?" Your marketing teams may have done their job *too* well, David...8) --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:28:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12804 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:17:43 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA12799 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:17:39 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA10129; Thu, 9 Feb 95 16:06:36 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29617; Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:44:35 EST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:44:35 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502092044.AA29617@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MIME/HTML/whatever lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am on a net resources list that distributes as html - the files are > immediately usable via mosaic. Useful! Unless, of course, you're like me; I read my mail on either: - an AT&T 3b2/310 which doesn't support Mosaic/httpd, or - a PC dialing in on a (non-SLIP) modem line. These things (HTML, MIME, etc.) are certainly neat, but I would hope that they are not the sole means of distribution for a typical dis- cussion list. Obviously, I wouldn't like to see NET-TRAIN, NODEINFO or List-Managers made available only in MIME or HTML. Let's not forget that a significant portion of the net does not yet have these goodies. Set them up as options (parallel lists, perhaps), but please don't make them an exclusive format for the sake of "neat!" --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:38:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12109 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:03:56 -0800 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA12101 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:03:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092103.NAA12101@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0258; Thu, 09 Feb 95 21:58:00 +0100 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 7274; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:57:57 +0100 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 21:51:01 +0100 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: Brian_Leverich@rand.org, Keith Moore cc: Annius Groenink , Stevan Harnad , List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l@SEARN.SUNET.SE, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:31:21 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, Please take LSTOWN-L off the "followup list" (so to speak). The next version of LISTSERV has code to detect and neutralize spams. This and 2 other spams have been correctly detected by the beta sites. Naturally since most LISTSERV sites aren't running the beta, the message did hit most of the targeted lists, but in a few months LISTSERV list owners (the people on the LSTOWN-L list) will be shielded from the bulk of this nonsense. The issue of purposeful abuse of resources made available for the greater good of the community remains an interesting one, but I don't see any need to carry it in parallel on two lists. Thank you. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:47:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA12561 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:11:54 -0800 Received: from bio3.acpub.duke.edu (bio3.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.106.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA12537 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:11:47 -0800 Received: (from jfurr@localhost) by bio3.acpub.duke.edu (8.6.8.1/Duke-2.0) id QAA05542; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:08:59 -0500 From: "Joel K. Furr" Message-Id: <199502092108.QAA05542@bio3.acpub.duke.edu> Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:08:58 -0500 (EST) Cc: Brian_Leverich@rand.org, moore@cs.utk.edu, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <199502092031.PAA28801@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Feb 9, 95 03:31:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1880 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I spoke by phone to the person ultimately responsible for the ad this afternoon, a John Petiton. Most of what was discussed is material for a column I'll be writing for _Internet and Comms Today_, but it might be of interest to know that: a) Petiton got the idea for spamming from C&S's book, which he saw in a bookstore. He does not even understand what the Internet is, per se. b) I explained at length that his belief that Net users are unilaterally opposed to use of the Net for commercial purposes in any way, shape, or form is mistaken; I explained the difference between USENET, the Internet, and the World Wide Web, and told him at length about the Web. c) One reason people are so angry is that the spam was posted to moderated groups; he did not know what a moderated group was and it appears that his "hired geek" took it upon himself to forge approvals. d) he feels that by putting the word "ad" in the subject line of each post, users could just say "I don't want to read that" and go on -- and was astounded by the massive negative reaction. e) he feels that the payoff will nonetheless be nonnegligible, and repeated the claim by C&S that they'd made a mint; in other words, 10,000 hostile email messages and fax-bombing is worth it if you sign up a lot of new customers. I got the impression of talking to a badly confused non-computer-user who read C&S's book, was swayed by their tune, and didn't realize that C&S had selectively edited the facts about the Green Card spam to leave out the *massive* outpouring of hate and harassment which spammers of this magnitude inevitably earn. I suggested that he set up a WWW page, and even offered to send him HTML Assistant for Windows to help him do it. I also pointed him in the direction of magazines like Netguide and Internet and Comms Today and to the WWW section of his local bookstore. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 13:53:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA14653 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:46:59 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA14647 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:46:53 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id QAA29286; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:40:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199502092140.QAA29286@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: PMDAtropos@aol.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 15:49:37 EST." <950209154935_17248656@aol.com> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 16:40:04 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Since AOL isn't the only one with this problem, the net as a whole is > >better off if the list is maintained by someone independent of any > >particular service provider. > > I don't entirely agree. We provide our database on AOL because it's > accessible to members, and because we work at making sure the information > provided in it is correct -- *we* go after the information, rather than > letting the information trickle into us. It sounds like a valuable service. But most of the lists that you advertise are run for the benefit of the entire net community -- not just AOL. You are taking the time to collect the information and make sure it's accurate -- for which I commend you -- but those list maintainers are also taking their time to give you the information. Why should they have to do this separately for AOL? Keith From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:01:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA14801 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:51:32 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA14796 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:51:28 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA10886; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:50:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:50:36 -0500 Message-Id: <950209164106_17281398@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Posting list addresses Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva writes: >I was recently on a mailing list that formed an adhoc committee [ ... ] >When it was brought up that the primary reason for the AOL influx was because >of the AOL mailing list database, most of the people on the committee were >surprised to find out of the existance of this database, much less the >mailing list was on it without their knowledge. I'm pretty surprised to find this out, myself. What's the name of the list? You can send it to me privately, no need to publicize it. If the list *was* added to our database without any contact with the list owners, it wasn't with *my* permission. >I think the point I'm trying to make is it's hard for people to ask you to >make changes when they don't even know something is there that might be in >need of their input. And as I've written, we go out of our way to contact list owners about their entries or potential entries (though there are occasions when list owners don't reply, even after repeated messages to them). That is why I am surprised to hear of the list mentioned above. I can think of a few lists which are similar in nature, but either I or my partner/assistant have been in contact with the owners of those lists in the past. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:23:59 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA15231 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:56:45 -0800 Received: from jazzie.com ([192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA15204 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:56:38 -0800 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0rcgnU-000OWkC; Thu, 9 Feb 95 13:53 PST Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: Bleak House Reference To: marco@yukon.cren.org (Marco Hernandez) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:53:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: ccapc@cyber.sell.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <26910.792361750@yukon.cren.org> from "Marco Hernandez" at Feb 9, 95 03:29:10 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 631 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Note the reduced number of addresses on the Cc: line. --sds] Marco wrote: > Hmm, Nasty things lawsuits.. They then usually lead to countersuits > $$$ spent and in the end only the lawyers really win (But then again > these folks are lawyers :O ) Bleak House ... No one should contemplate initiating legal action without reading Dickens. If you get through "Bleak House" and still want to involve the legal system in resolving your dispute, then you're either incredibly naive or certifiably insane. -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com (206) 443-2028 Jazzie Systems From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:25:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA13449 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:28:28 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA13439 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:28:22 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id NAA01471 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:25:55 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id NAA19209 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:25:54 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 13:25:54 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502092125.NAA19209@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Perhaps Clinton's fascistic Crime Bill applies.... Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com __ [http://www.portal.com/~chan/crime-bill/by-title/title29 ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/chan/crime-bill/by-title/title29] __ TITLE XXIX--COMPUTER CRIME SEC. 290001. COMPUTER ABUSE AMENDMENTS ACT OF 1994. (a) Short Title.--This subtitle may be cited as the ``Computer Abuse Amendments Act of 1994''. (b) Prohibition.--Section 1030(a)(5) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows: ``(5)(A) through means of a computer used in interstate commerce or communications, knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command to a computer or computer system if-- ``(i) the person causing the transmission intends that such transmission will-- ``(I) damage, or cause damage to, a computer, computer system, network, information, data, or program; or ``(II) withhold or deny, or cause the withholding or denial, of the use of a computer, computer services, system or network, information, data or program; and ``(ii) the transmission of the harmful component of the program, information, code, or command-- ``(I) occurred without the authorization of the persons or entities who own or are responsible for the computer system receiving the program, information, code, or command; and ``(II)(aa) causes loss or damage to one or more other persons of value aggregating $1,000 or more during any 1-year period; or ``(bb) modifies or impairs, or potentially modifies or impairs, the medical examination, medical diagnosis, medical treatment, or medical care of one or more individuals; or ``(B) through means of a computer used in interstate commerce or communication, knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command to a computer or computer system-- ``(i) with reckless disregard of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the transmission will-- ``(I) damage, or cause damage to, a computer, computer system, network, information, data or program; or ``(II) withhold or deny or cause the withholding or denial of the use of a computer, computer services, system, network, information, data or program; and ``(ii) if the transmission of the harmful component of the program, information, code, or command-- ``(I) occurred without the authorization of the persons or entities who own or are responsible for the computer system receiving the program, information, code, or command; and ``(II)(aa) causes loss or damage to one or more other persons of a value aggregating $1,000 or more during any 1-year period; or ``(bb) modifies or impairs, or potentially modifies or impairs, the medical examination, medical diagnosis, medical treatment, or medical care of one or more individuals;''. (c) Penalty.--Section 1030(c) of title 18, United States Code is amended-- (1) in paragraph (2)(B) by striking ``and'' after the semicolon; (2) in paragraph (3)(A) by inserting ``(A)'' after ``(a)(5)''; (3) in paragraph (3)(B) by striking the period at the end thereof and inserting ``; and''; and (4) by adding at the end the following new paragraph: ``(4) a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or both, in the case of an offense under subsection (a)(5)(B).''. (d) Civil Action.--Section 1030 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection: ``(g) Any person who suffers damage or loss by reason of a violation of the section, other than a violation of subsection (a)(5)(B), may maintain a civil action against the violator to obtain compensatory damages and injunctive relief or other equitable relief. Damages for violations of any subsection other than subsection (a)(5)(A)(ii)(II)(bb) or (a)(5)(B)(ii)(II)(bb) are limited to economic damages. No action may be brought under this subsection unless such action is begun within 2 years of the date of the act complained of or the date of the discovery of the damage.''. (e) Reporting Requirements.--Section 1030 of title 18 United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection: ``(h) The Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury shall report to the Congress annually, during the first 3 years following the date of the enactment of this subsection, concerning investigations and prosecutions under section 1030(a)(5) of title 18, United States Code.''. (f) Prohibition.--Section 1030(a)(3) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting ``adversely'' before ``affects the use of the Government's operation of such computer''. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:29:49 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA16025 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:18:32 -0800 Received: from toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu [128.120.56.188]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA16013 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:18:19 -0800 Received: by toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu (4.1/UCD.CS.2.6) id AA02348; Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:15:46 PST Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:15:46 PST From: zerkle@cs.ucdavis.edu (Dan Zerkle) Message-Id: <9502092215.AA02348@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu> To: jfurr@acpub.duke.edu, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Cc: Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl, Brian_Leverich@rand.org, List-Managers@greatcircle.com, harnad@ecs.soton.ac.uk, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk After Joel's message and my own call to the agency, I am led to believe that we must retaliate in the harshest way possible to discourage further such abuse of the network. My favorite comment from the person on the phone: "We haven't gotten into trouble yet!" Suing the company would be an excellent precedent. However, that will take awhile and I do not know who has sufficient resources to dedicate to this. Here is some appropriate immediate action: Post messages to your groups/lists asking users to help you. Ask the users to do the following: Contact John Petition by phone (212) 629-5261 or FAX 629-4762. (Note: These are from the ad. Can anyone suggest a better number to use?) Tell John the following: o What he did was wrong. People are very angry about what he did. o Because what he did was wrong, his message has already been removed from every single newsgroup. They have also lost their connection to panix.com. o It cost hundreds of thousands of installations real money to receive his advertisement. o The ad was posted to moderated groups without authorization. o The ad was posted to many off-topic newsgroups. o Canter and Siegal are liars and charlatans. Their book also contains lies. o There are many legitimate ways to advertise on the Internet, but Usenet is not one of them. o Most of the responses you will get through e-mail are from people who have absolutely no interest in your services. The most just thing to then do would be to have each person e-mail in a request for a packet, but to a ficticious address. This will assure that the cost of reaching actual potential clients will be very high because of all the packets they mail to non-clients. With the fictitious addresses, they will know that these were not received instead of thinking that they were successful because they got so many responses. Finally, contact PSI (does anyone have their number?) and ask them to remove sell.com from the net, as its owners clearly intend to encourage their owners to continue to abuse the network. This immediate action should convince these people that what they are doing is wrong. Can anyone improve on this? In particular, I would like good contact information for publicity at the firm and for PSI. -Dan From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:54:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA17000 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:50:21 -0800 Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id OAA16995 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:50:13 -0800 Received: from crl8.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA23439 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:37:08 -0800 Message-Id: <199502092237.AA23439@mail.crl.com> To: "Joel K. Furr" Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net, gherbert@crl.com Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 1995 16:08:58 EST." <199502092108.QAA05542@bio3.acpub.duke.edu> Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 14:36:55 -0800 From: George Herbert Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joel, did you by chance ask him why the From: address on the messages was set to ccapc@cyber.sell.com if C&S weren't directly involved? I can't get into cyber.sell.com's SMTP port to vrfy/expn that account right now, it seems to be overloaded and unresponsive. I would sort of like to know if the account really exists. It sounds like either way, C&S are getting comeuppance for a years' bad net karma. It would be particularly amusing if they're being stomped on for something they weren't directly involved with, but which was caused by someone reading their book and taking it literally. | george william herbert | UNIX/Internet Consultant Usenet Old-Fogie | | KD6WUQ gherbert@crl.com | Part-time Aerospace Engineer & Moderator of | ===== ftp://ftp.crl.com/users/ro/gwh/home.html ===== sci.space.{tech,science} From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 14:57:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA16230 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:22:21 -0800 Received: from netcom21.netcom.com (dorsieh@netcom21.netcom.com [192.100.81.135]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA08492 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:49:19 -0800 Received: by netcom21.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id LAA24731; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:45:38 -0800 From: dorsieh@netcom.com (Dorsie L. Hathaway) Message-Id: <199502091945.LAA24731@netcom21.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Posting list addresses To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:45:37 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199502091402.IAA12732@bonkers.taronga.com> from "Stephanie da Silva" at Feb 9, 95 08:02:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1774 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie wrote:> (deletia) > I was recently on a mailing list that formed an adhoc committee to help > solve the problems the list had been having. The main problem was a mass > influx of America Online users that were posting things not within the > charter of the mailing list. This mailing list had been set up as a > support/discussion group for people of a specific sexual lifestyle and > the new users were treating it like it were alt.sex.personals. When it > was brought up that the primary reason for the AOL influx was because of > the AOL mailing list database, most of the people on the committee were > surprised to find out of the existance of this database, much less the > mailing list was on it without their knowledge. > I'd like to add to this: I administer ten internet mailing lists for individuals with minority sexual orientation. The vast majority of invalid/incomplete requests I receive come from AOL. I tried logging in to AOL and searching the database, and have found that there was incorrect information there, but with NO pointer whatsoever available for corrections. AOL did not identify the database "keeper". If AOL is not going to use a standard net resource, such as the PAML, perhaps they should consider writing to the list-owners of every list and asking permission to post list info, verifying its accuracy, etc. Or perhaps you should start with the PAML and then write to every list-owner for a list not in it and go from there. Just my .02, Dorsie Hathaway -- Dorsie Hathaway ** dorsieh@netcom.com ** dorsieh@teleport.com List info: anonymous ftp from netcom ftp/pub/do/dorsieh Check my homepage! URL=http://www.teleport.com/~dorsieh Haggard: intractable, willful, wanton....wild-eyed. Webster's. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 15:24:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA17046 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:52:44 -0800 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (root@nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA17041 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:52:42 -0800 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (chan@jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id OAA09673 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:50:16 -0800 Received: (chan@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id OAA29324 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:50:14 -0800 Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 14:50:14 -0800 From: Jeff Chan Message-Id: <199502092250.OAA29324@jobe.shell.portal.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Bryan Curnutt >>Jeff Chan writes: >> >> http://www.portal.com/~chan/crime-bill/by-title/title29 > >When I tried this, I got: > >404 Not Found > >The requested URL /~chan/crime-bill/by-title/title29 was not found >on this server. Sorry I left off a directory. This is what I get for not having IP on my wristwatch :-) Should be: http://www.portal.com/~chan/federal/crime-bill/by-title/title29 or ftp://ftp.shell.portal.com/pub/chan/federal/crime-bill/by-title/title29 -- Jeff Chan chan@shell.portal.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 9 23:22:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA27611 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:20:38 -0800 Received: from sun3.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (sun3.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk [128.86.8.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id XAA27606 for ; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 23:20:33 -0800 Received: from bright.ecs.soton.ac.uk by sun3.nsfnet-relay.ac.uk with JANET SMTP id ; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:36:36 +0000 From: Stevan Harnad Received: from cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk by louis.ecs.soton.ac.uk; Thu, 9 Feb 95 13:55:53 GMT Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 13:56:15 GMT Message-Id: <9279.9502091356@cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: ccapc@cyber.sell.com Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (majordomo), lstown-l@searn.bitnet (Bitnet List Owners), moderators@uunet.uu.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To: ccapc@cyber.sell.com (Consumer Credit Advocates) CC: Editorial Board and listowners' group Please remove sci.psychology.digest from your mailing list immediately. If any more messages are received from cyber.sell.com I will initiate net-wide counter-measures that will make you deeply regret sending anything to sci.psychology.digest, which is a scientific journal, not a place to spam with ads. I am sure I speak for many other list-owners who are determined not to allow their lists to be spammed with ads like this. Stevan Harnad Editor, PSYCOLOQUY Department of Psychology University of Southampton Highfield, Southampton SO17 1BJ UNITED KINGDOM psyc@pucc.princeton.edu phone: +44 703 594-583 fax: +44 703 593-281 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ftp://cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk/pub/harnad ftp://ftp.princeton.edu/pub/harnad/ http://cogsci.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/ http://www.princeton.edu/~harnad/ gopher://gopher.princeton.edu/11/.libraries/.pujournals From LISTSERV@PUCC.Princeton.EDU Thu Feb 9 12:05:24 1995 Received: from Princeton.EDU by bright.ecs.soton.ac.uk; Thu, 9 Feb 95 12:01:11 GMT Received: from clarity.Princeton.EDU by Princeton.EDU (5.65b/2.115/princeton) id AA01342; Thu, 9 Feb 95 07:00:52 -0500 Received: from pucc.Princeton.EDU by clarity.Princeton.EDU (4.1/1.113) id AA16004; Thu, 9 Feb 95 07:00:52 EST Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by pucc.Princeton.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 1135; Thu, 09 Feb 95 07:00:48 EST Received: from PUCC by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP id 4691; Thu, 09 Feb 95 07:00:47 EST Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP id 4690; Thu, 09 Feb 95 07:00:47 EST Received: from PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@PUCC) by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1997; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 07:00:47 -0500 Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU by PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf008) with BSMTP id 4605; Thu, 09 Feb 95 06:58:46 EST Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (NJE origin NETNEWS@AUVM) by AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 4697; Thu, 9 Feb 1995 06:58:02 -0500 To: PSYC@pucc.Princeton.EDU Sender: Path: auvm!paladin.american.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm. edu!caen!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!not-for-mail From: ccapc@cyber.sell.com (Consumer Credit Advocates) Newsgroups: sci.psychology.digest Subject: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Date: 9 Feb 1995 05:55:22 -0500 Organization: Consumer Credit Advocates, PC Lines: 117 X-Sender: ccapc@panix.com Approved: postmaster Message-Id: <3hcsaq$pud@panix.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: panix.com Status: RO This message was originally submitted by ccapc@CYBER.SELL.COM to the PSYC list at PUCC. If you simply forward it back to the list, it will be distributed with the paragraph you are now reading being automatically removed. If you edit the contributions you receive into a digest, you will need to remove this paragraph before mailing the results to the list. Finally, if you need more information from the author of this message, you should be able to do so by simply replying to this note. ----------------- Message requiring your approval (117 lines) ----------------- Consumer Credit Advocates, PC 11 Pennsylvania Plaza, Suite 2101 New York, NY 10001 (212) 629-5261 (telephone) (212) 629-4762 (fax) E-MAIL: ccapc@cyber.sell.com Our LAW FIRM offers direct guaranteed effective credit restoration services by experienced attorneys. THIS IS NOT A DO-IT-YOURSELF KIT. What can we do? We have successfully facilitated the removal of Late Payments, Charge-offs, Foreclosures, Repossessions, Collection Accounts, Loan Defaults, Tax Liens, Judgments and Bankruptcies from our clients' credit reports. WE GUARANTEE THAT YOUR CREDIT CAN BE RESTORED!!! Who needs our services? Anyone who has experienced the inconvenience and embarrassment of being turned down for a credit card, a lease or a purchase of an automobile. Anyone who is unable to buy the house of their dreams due to denial of a mortgage application or who has to pay thousands of dollars more in mortgage interest than someone with good credit. Anyone who has been turned down for a job or promotion due to derogatory credit items on a credit report. Anyone in business who has lost a deal because a person or firm wanted to see his/her credit report before doing business. Anyone who has been unable to establish credit. THE FOUR GREAT MYTHS OF CREDIT: Myth #1: It is illegal or immoral to have your credit report cleared. Fact: It is not illegal nor immoral. In fact, that is what the Fair Credit Reporting Act is all about. The act was enacted by Congress in 1971. One of its purposes as to give consumers the protection of the law and to help guard against any unwarranted invasion of a consumer's right to privacy. Myth #2: The information on a credit report cannot be changed. Fact: Actually, the opposite is true under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Federal and State laws require that items be removed if they are not 100% accurate or cannot be verified in a timely manner. Myth #3: It is impossible to get a bankruptcy off a credit report. Fact: Bankruptcies can come off credit reports like any other derogatory item. The nature of the derogatory item has nothing to do with its removal under the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Myth #4: Credit Reporting Agencies are empowered with some kind of governmental authority. Fact: Absolutely Not!! They are simply large corporations whose primary goal is to make a profit like any other business. If you have ever applied for or received credit, a file exists in one or more of the credit bureaus. These companies collect, store and distribute as much credit information as they can find, retaining negative information on a credit report for 7 to 10 years. This information is evaluated by potential creditors to determine your credit worthiness. Credit reporting agencies are in business to protect the interests of the creditors. the LAW FIRM's goal is to help and protect the individual consumer from inaccurate credit reporting. The president of our LAW FIRM has been practicing consumer law since 1984. The staff of our firm has successfully processed, disputed and challenged thousands of client credit reports. Our legal fee is based o the number of negative items that appear on a client's credit reports, issued b the three national credit bureaus. Our retainer agreement offers a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE stating that if any negative item is not deleted, upgraded or corrected from a client's credit file, it will give the client a full refund for that item or continue to process the client's file at no additional fee until that item is corrected, upgraded or deleted. THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE TO LOSE IS YOUR BAD CREDIT!! PLEASE CONTACT THE LAW FIRM AND LEAVE YOUR FULL NAME, MAILING ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE NUMBER SO WE MAY FORWARD FURTHER INFORMATION AND INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU ABOUT OUR SERVICE. Consumer Credit Advocates, PC 11 Pennsylvania Plaza, Suite 2101 New York, NY 10001 (212) 629-5261 (telephone) (212) 629-4762 (fax) E-MAIL: ccapc@cyber.sell.com From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 10 04:52:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA02369 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 04:47:52 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA02364 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 04:47:49 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA14650; Fri, 10 Feb 95 07:34:46 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13979; Fri, 10 Feb 95 07:39:30 EST Date: Fri, 10 Feb 95 07:39:30 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502101239.AA13979@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l@searn.bitnet, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: our friends at cyber.sell.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I think it would be more workable to simply take direct action. We >> should probably do the homework to identify who the bad guys are, >> sit and cool off for a day, and then put out a call to our readers >> for each of them to send a large file to the offending site if the >> site hasn't cleaned up its own mess. > >I don't think this will work very well. The problem is that this kind >of action could very well be as damaging as the spams in the first >place, and equally vulnerable to legal action. Indeed. It should be noted that, when Canter and Siegel generated this sort of response to one of their earlier spams, they used the resulting furor as publicity material - "We were hounded off the Internet!" and "they don't acknowledge the *right* of commercial speech!" were their mantras, and they generated a significant boom in sympathy. Mailbombing (even distributed) is completely unacceptable, regardless of the situation. It takes us down to their level. >I'd love to see the net community find a way to solve this within >itself, but the service providers are in a wierd position. If they >disconnect a user for misbehavior, they might be seen as actively >controlling content, and thus they might be held responsible for the >content of everyone's posts. (just wait 'til somebody sends a nekkid >picture of their kid and the service provider gets sued for >transmitting kiddie porn.) > >So at this point I suspect the legal system is our best bet, but I'd >certainly like to hear of other suggestions. I realize that email and mailing list spammers are not regulated at this time, but why don't we follow the same procedure we use for junk telephone marketing? In other words: - Each list owner/manager and newsgroup moderator should compose a simple letter, stating the reasons why the sell.com postings are an unacceptable instrusion in their forum. These reasons might include topicality, cost issues (for our overseas friends who pay by-the-byte) and/or volume; however, we should be careful not to 'invent' reasons. - This letter should state that the forum in question is either owned by you (for sites hosting lists), managed by you on be- half of the owners (for remote listowners), or both. - This letter should also specifically include a formal request for sell.com to cease the publishing of their material in *your* forum. Dispatch this letter, with copies to postmaster@sell.com (the site post- master) and postmaster@psi.com (from whence sell.com receives its feed). We might also want to set up a mailing list for the sole purpose of archiving all of these 'cease and desist' requests. Should sell.com, after receipt of this notice, conduct another foray into your moderated newsgroup or mailing list, it would then be ap- propriate to (once more) go directly to psi.com and say, "We informed both them *and you*, on such-and-such a date, that these postings were not welcome in our forum. What do you plan to do about it *now*?" This does little for unmoderated forums, such as the majority of Usenet newsgroups, but it could be a good start for our mailing lists and mo- derated newsgroups. --Wes From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 10 06:22:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA03173 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 06:03:18 -0800 Received: from nic.ott.hookup.net (root@nic.ott.hookup.net [165.154.5.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA03167 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 06:03:04 -0800 Received: from ecicrl.UUCP (chrisl@localhost) by nic.ott.hookup.net (8.6.9/1.82) with UUCP id IAA05146; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 08:57:49 -0500 Received: by ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0rcvTs-000048C; Fri, 10 Feb 95 08:33 EST Message-Id: From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 08:33:52 -0500 In-Reply-To: pshuang@MIT.EDU " GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM" (Feb 9, 14:00) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: pshuang@MIT.EDU, Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Cc: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moderators@uunet.uu.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Feb 9, 14:00, pshuang@MIT.EDU wrote: } Subject: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM } Annius.Groenink@cwi.nl (Annius Groenink) said: } } > The cancel seemed to be originated by the people who posted the ad, } > rather than someone authorative at the site where it was posted... } > am I right? } } No, Panix admnistrators have been the ones issuing the cancels; the } *.answers moderators initiated a dialog with them almost immediately. } Mara Chibnik appears to be spearheading the cleanup efforts; she } already realizes that the initial round of cancels issued needed were } missing Approved: lines to take effect in the moderated newsgroups } which were spammed. They also had the wrong Sender: lines (the Sender: should be copied from the original, instead, it was a copy of the origina From:), hence they were ineffective on INN with "cancel verification" turned on. I issued additional cancels to terminate some of those. -- Chris Lewis: _Una confibula non sat est_ Phone: Canada 613 832-0541 Latest psroff: FTP://ftp.uunet.ca/distrib/chris_lewis/psroff3.0pl17/* Latest hp2pbm: FTP://ftp.uunet.ca/distrib/chris_lewis/hp2pbm/* From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 10 06:52:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA03635 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 06:46:43 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA03630 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 06:46:35 -0800 Received: from clipper.cb.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA12395; Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:24:06 EST Received: by clipper.cb.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1 SunOS) id AA07635; Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:30:00 EST From: Mark.R.Horton@att.com Received: from stargate.cb.att.com by clipper.cb.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1 SunOS) id AA07624; Fri, 10 Feb 95 09:29:54 EST Original-From: mark@clipper.cb.att.com Received: by stargate.cb.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 client.cf 1/8/94 (SMI-4.1/SVR4)) id AA01553; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:26:04 +0500 Message-Id: <9502100926.ZM1551@stargate> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 09:26:02 -0500 In-Reply-To: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) "Re: our friends at cyber.sell.com" (Feb 10, 7:39am) References: <9502101239.AA13979@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> X-Face: 0Ujc(i>lS5* X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: our friends at cyber.sell.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here is another thought on the subject. Right now there is no legal remedy against a spammer. Even though I am the moderator of a newsgroup with a published policy, I cannot prosecute because no law has been broken. If Usenet were to become the private property of some entity, that entity would have legal recourse against unauthorized appropriation of its property. One way to accomplish this would be to form an organization, "Usenet Inc" or "The Usenet Society" or something (or align under some existing org such as Usenix or The Internet Society) and solicit people to join the organization for a token fee to cover administrative expenses (a few dollars.) Elections among the members could be held to elect a board to run Usenet. The elected officials would have power to set rules for use of Usenet, which would presumably be the same as the existing rules. Periodic elections would ensure that the officials are accountable to the members, and membership would be open to anyone. C&S could join and have a vote, but would not be able to generate enough votes to affect anything. There might also be a membership category for sites carrying Usenet, who are contributing their resources (disk space, net bandwidth, admin time) and for moderators. Then if someone posts contrary to policy, the organization has the option to either ignore it (for random clueless idiots posting off-topic) or to initiate legal action for theft of resources (for spammers.) Personally, I've received several complaints from readers of my newsgroup (news.announce.important) about the posting, many of them think I approved or posted it. I'll bet I'm not alone. A few kind souls have even undertaken to cancel the posting on their own - I sent out a cancel (the one from Panix came to me for approval, which I did) but it looks like there are places where the spam article is posted intact. Mark From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 10 14:22:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA11093 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 13:56:39 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA11088 for ; Fri, 10 Feb 1995 13:56:35 -0800 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA00738; Fri, 10 Feb 95 16:54:22 EST Message-Id: <9502102154.AA00738@ig1.att.att.com> To: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 10 Feb 1995 15:56 EST Subject: Fighting Spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 9 Feb 1995, Dan Zerkle wrote: > The most just thing to then do would be to have each person e-mail > in a request for a packet, but to a ficticious address. This will > assure that the cost of reaching actual potential clients will be > very high because of all the packets they mail to non-clients. With > the fictitious addresses, they will know that these were not > received instead of thinking that they were successful because > they got so many responses. Winship replies: >Hmm, you may be liable for mail fraud with this, I don't really know, >but its a possibility (I never trust gov. agencies further than I can >throw them). Dan has the right idea, but why a fictitious address? Play the game their way. Send them a perfectly realistic request for information to your real addresses (no mail fraud either--how can anyone prove that you weren't really interested?). Send it on a postcard if possible, so that they can't just reply via e-mail, but also send by e-mail, fax, and phone call, if you have the patience. Here's a sample: "Dear Sirs, I would like a Green Card but am afraid that my poor credit rating will keep me from getting one. Please send me all the literature you can." But don't use a fictitious address--string them along. Let the realization come sl.o.o.o.wly, that they've been had...when 10,000 packages go out in the mail...and only 2 customers show up...along with 100,000 more requests for information. If they got a million of these (not farfetched at all--just ask Craig Shergold...) _and had no way of knowing which ones were real_ what could they do? Send out a million packages in the mail? Make 1,000,000 phone calls? They claim that the flak they get is worth it because the few legitimate reponses make it profitable. You can't stop the legitimate responses--but you _can_ make it economically prohibitive (if even logistically possible) for them to _find_ the legitimate responses. Then their economic return becomes negative, and the activity ceases (at least by those who do it for an economic incentive). Q.E.D. >From now on, my standard response to a spam will be to write back to the address provided, saying, "Yes, I am very interested, please tell me more. But ... [insert complicated question that will require at least several minutes of work on the part of the recipient to respond to.]" Kill them with [feigned] kindness! Shahrukh Merchant merchant@anuxv.att.com From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 09:22:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA26254 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:11:50 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA26249 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:11:45 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA26245; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:10:55 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:10:55 -0500 Message-Id: <950211121053_18976986@aol.com> To: moore@cs.utk.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: >It sounds like a valuable service. But most of the lists that you >advertise are run for the benefit of the entire net community -- not >just AOL. You are taking the time to collect the information and make >sure it's accurate -- for which I commend you -- but those list >maintainers are also taking their time to give you the information. >Why should they have to do this separately for AOL? That's a good question. Personally, I'd rather make sure that AOL members are provided complete, accurate and up to date information about my lists. Considering how many AOL members there are, making sure they have (or have easy access to) accurate information is important. The amount of time it takes to fill our (or verify) the information on a mailing list is miniscule compared to the benefit of AOL members having access to the information. BTW, we don't force list owners to have entries in our database. If a list owner says they don't want to be in the database, that's fine with us, but we can no longer guarantee that members will have access to accurate information on the list, and our ability to assist members who have questions (or who have followed inaccurate information) is compromised. We've never desired an antagonistic relationship with any list owners, and in fact I think our relationship with most owners is quite good. The AOL database provides a useful, accurate, easily-locatible resource for members. It helps teach them how to act in a responsible fashion on the Internet. It helps list owners by minimizing the errors members might otherwise have made, and it helps expose them to another two million or so potential clients. I hope this has helped answer your concern. If it hasn't, *please* let me know and I'll do my best to go into further detail. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 09:23:50 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA26132 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:03:18 -0800 Received: from access4.digex.net (qlE46B5DiGQyA@access4.digex.net [164.109.10.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA26127; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:03:12 -0800 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA13133 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:01:11 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199502111701.AA13133@access4.digex.net> Subject: Returned mail: User unknown (fwd) To: mcb@greatcircle.com (Postmaster) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:01:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2476 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael, Here is what your system did with what I think should be a standard query from John Random Public. I am forwarding it to you not only to guilt you into supporting the alias info@greatcircle.com with a GreatCircleFAQ but also because of the creative things that [Majordomo?] did with my message before giving up. [My current notion is that info@domain and help@domain should be standardly supported by anyone vending services or information via email (or other protocols) on the Internet.] You might want to sample info@access.digex.net or info@tmn.com for representative examples of a "normal" info@... response. Your .sig says you are Postmaster. Can I send things to Postmaster@greatcircle.com ? Regards, Al Gilman Forwarded message: From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Feb 11 11:22:37 1995 Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 23:51:02 -0500 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <199502111622.AA11129@access4.digex.net> To: asgilman@access.digex.net Subject: Returned mail: User unknown ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 554 ject:... Could not parse ject : 554 Re:... Could not parse Re : While talking to nfs1.digex.net: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 URLs... User unknown >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 Some... User unknown ----- Recipients of this delivery ----- Bounced, cannot deliver: ject: Some URLs ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by access4.digex.net id AA11126 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:22:21 -0500 Received: from access1.digex.net by nfs1.digex.net with SMTP id AA26042 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 10 Feb 1995 23:50:58 -0500 Received: by access1.digex.net id AA23843 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for asgilman); Fri, 10 Feb 1995 23:50:50 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199502110450.AA23843@access1.digex.net> Subject: Hi To: info@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 23:50:50 -0500 (EST) Cc: asgilman@access.digex.net (Al Gilman) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 248 Sender: asgilman This is a probe to see if you have an auto-responder. If this falls into a queue for manual processing, please ignore. I have been to your site by ftp, signed up for list-managers, and have the list manager's .sig on the welcome msg. Tnx. Al From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 10:22:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA26547 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:53:47 -0800 Received: from edison.eng.auburn.edu (edison.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.10.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA26542 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:53:44 -0800 Received: from hellcat.eng.auburn.edu.eng.auburn.edu (8286@hellcat.eng.auburn.edu [131.204.31.19]) by edison.eng.auburn.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id LAA11231; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:51:47 -0600 Received: by hellcat.eng.auburn.edu.eng.auburn.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26146; Sat, 11 Feb 95 11:51:46 CST Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:51:45 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Hartsfield To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-Reply-To: <950211121053_18976986@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Feb 1995 PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: > useful, accurate, easily-locatible resource for members. It helps teach them > how to act in a responsible fashion on the Internet. It helps list owners by > minimizing the errors members might otherwise have made, and it helps expose > them to another two million or so potential clients. Clients?? I run a large role-playing list and I do not consider the members of the list clients or anything of that nature. Of course, given AOL philosophy of encouraging the use of internet and usenet for commercial purposes and not informing its members of the limits of commerical activites, this kind of terminology does not suprise me from AOL. The vast majority of mailing lists do not have paying clients, but are for the benfit of the net at large for free. ================================================================== = Brian Hartsfield = Computer Consultant = = KD4AEJ = Focus:UNIX and networking = = Internet: bh@ddi.digital.net = = = = (This space awaiting a = = AMPRnet: kd4aej@bbs.k4ry.ampr.org = Good quote) = ================================================================== From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 11:52:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA27221 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:46:33 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA27216 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:46:27 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA28317 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:34:29 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA13780; 11 Feb 95 13:29:20 CST (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA13777 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:29:19 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502111929.NAA13777@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: More net abuse... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:29:18 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2147 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not to interrupt your C&S bashing or anything, but yesterday I got some mail that not only annoyed me, it disturbed me too and may be a continuing sign of the recent trend of net.abuse. The person who wrote me mentioned over and over he was a newbie. Not that it was hard to figure out, he addressed me as "Ms. Taronga" in his first letter. :-) He apparently had a lot of trouble trying to contact list owners and offered some very good suggestions on how to make the list entries more user-friendly for new users. (Tho one of the things I pointed out to him in my resonse was that I assumed certain things, like that people reading the document understood what a mailing list was and what the purpose of mailing lists was, too. And if they were so new to the net that they didn't understand these things, there were other places for finding out this information, like news.newusers.questions). He had written 45 of the list contact addresses. Of these, 30 were majordomos/listprocs/listervs and sent him back error messages, 10 were bounces and only 5 actually got him back responses. Tho he complained about the 5 because they didn't identify themselves in return and he didn't know what lists they represented! He had put "Your mailing list" in the Subject lines of his email and you know, if someone writes me and says, "I'm writing about your mailing list," my response usually is, "Which one?" So he was frustrated because he apparently thought he had put considerable time and effort into contacting these lists, with less than satisfactory results. What disturbs me is that he didn't want to subscribe to any of them. He wanted to send some sort of "press release" to each list (the nature of, I never found out) on a continuing basis. So here he gets on the net and finds mailing lists and sees them only as a resource for him to use for his own personal devices But you know, maybe, just maybe one day this guy will get a clue and understand how lists work and then he won't even bother with the contact addresses and instead send directly to the list address. This is what bothered me the most about the situation. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 11:54:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA27229 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:46:49 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA27224 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:46:41 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA28308 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:34:10 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA13580; 11 Feb 95 13:01:12 CST (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id NAA13577 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:01:12 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502111901.NAA13577@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Purpose of Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:01:11 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2730 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Hartsfield wrote: > On Sat, 11 Feb 1995 PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: > > > It helps list owners by > > minimizing the errors members might otherwise have made, and it helps expose > > them to another two million or so potential clients. > > Clients?? I run a large role-playing list and I do not consider the > members of the list clients or anything of that nature. > The vast majority of mailing lists do not have paying clients, but are > for the benfit of the net at large for free. I've run into this attitude before. Usually when someone like a sysadmin writes and asks me to subscribe a gateway to the list. When I tell them that I don't allow gateways on my list, I've often gotten back what a terrible person I must be to deny this service to their users. But you know, I'm not a service. If you get down to it, the main reason I have my list is for selfish reasons, because it pleases me. The most extreme case was this one time I received a nasty note from the owner of a small local BBS that charged for access. Oh, a little background. The ranger-list is really three lists running in parallel: one list is for regular list traffic, the second is a digested version and the third is called ranger-maniacs and is for large files like binaries. Of the 135 current members of the list, about 100 are subscribed to maniacs (which has infrequent traffic). So this sysop wrote me very angry because a gif just went through the list (note that at no time did I correspond with the user that orignally subscribed to the list). He was mad because he paid for his newsfeed and didn't I know that there were rules about mailing large files through the Internet? I explained to him about maniacs and how users were given a choice to unsubscribe to it. He said I never gave any indication of this, so I sent him the intro file I send to all new users which explains all the administrative stuff. About this time is when he mentioned the users (!) on his system that read the list which is what clued me into the gateway, since only one person on his system was subscribed. So I told him that gateways weren't allowed on my list and I was dropping that user from the list. The next letter I got from him was on the order of "how dare you and you have no right as I use your list as a service for my paying users". I was pretty disgusted with him by this time and told him that I didn't appreciate him abusing my creative handiwork and stopped responding to him after that. It wasn't until that he realized that I did drop the user and that I wasn't responding to his demands that he even began to get conciliatory. But by that time, as far as I was concerned, it was too late. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 12:22:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA27523 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:04:14 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA27512 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:04:09 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id OAA05084; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 14:58:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199502111958.OAA05084@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: PMDAtropos@aol.com cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:10:55 EST." <950211121053_18976986@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 14:58:50 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > >It sounds like a valuable service. But most of the lists that you > >advertise are run for the benefit of the entire net community -- not > >just AOL. You are taking the time to collect the information and make > >sure it's accurate -- for which I commend you -- but those list > >maintainers are also taking their time to give you the information. > >Why should they have to do this separately for AOL? > > That's a good question. Personally, I'd rather make sure that AOL members are > provided complete, accurate and up to date information about my lists. > Considering how many AOL members there are, making sure they have (or have > easy access to) accurate information is important. The amount of time it > takes to fill our (or verify) the information on a mailing list is miniscule > compared to the benefit of AOL members having access to the information. Okay, I'll put this another way: given that AOL considers it worthwhile to collect this information from the net for the benefit of its members, why doesn't AOL return the favor and share that information with the rest of the net? The net has traditionally been a cooperative where people shared their work for the benefit of all. Someone who needs to write a program to solve a particular problem can make that program available to everyone. Another person who does some research on a particular topic might put his results on his web server. Or a person with an interest in a particular topic volunteers to maintain a public mailing list for discussion about that topic. AOL members now benefit from these services, but as far as I can tell, neither AOL nor its members give anything back. Does AOL allow its members to make files available for ftp or to export information to the world wide web or gopher? Does AOL allow its members to maintain mailing lists that are accessible from the Internet? I can understand why AOL would not give random.internet.user access to its value added services, but does AOL even allow Internet users to access its discussion groups where everything was contributed by AOL members? This is part of why AOL's use of the net is seen an insult by a lot of the net community. It's 2 million members put a large load on the services provided (often by volunteers) from the rest of the net. It's bad enough that these people often aren't well informed about the culture of the net (and I appreciate your efforts to improve that situation), but it's even worse that a lot is taken, and nothing is given back. (Of course, AOL is not the only one doing this, but by virtue of its size it's probably the worst offender.) Given that a lot of AOL's appeal comes from being able to use Internet services (or else why would they advertise it?), I believe it is in AOL's interest to contribute some things back to the net to help it grow, and to allow its members to do the same. If the net only consisted of large service providers like AOL, most of the services that make it valuable would not exist. If service providers take over the net, it will cease to be useful. AOL and other providers should be *adding* value to the net, rather than taking it away. Surely there are some things they can give back with little additional effort on their part. Doing so would also enhance AOL's reputation. Personally, I would love to be able to refer net.newbies to AOL, but only if I could count on AOL to not only give them an easy to use interface, but also to teach them to be contributors to the net as a whole. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 13:52:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA28198 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:42:06 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA28193 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 13:42:02 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA067228578; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 16:36:18 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 16:36:18 -0500 Message-Id: <950211163616_19138832@aol.com> To: moore@cs.utk.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: >Okay, I'll put this another way: given that AOL considers it >worthwhile to collect this information from the net for the benefit of >its members, why doesn't AOL return the favor and share that >information with the rest of the net? That is something I've been planning on doing for some time, but technical problems have prevented me from doing much more than thinking about it. At the rate things are going, however, there should *at least* be a copy of the database availabe on ftp.aol.com within a couple of months, and eventually, one available via WWW. I haven't settled on what the format will be, but I'll probably go with monthly refreshes and weekly updates. >AOL members now benefit from these services, but as far as I can tell, >neither AOL nor its members give anything back. I've had AOL members contributing -- valuably -- to my lists for at least a year, and I know the same can be said for other lists and newsgroups as well. Certainly, not all AOL members contribute, but not all non-AOL users contribute (or contribute "usefully") either. >Does AOL allow its >members to make files available for ftp or to export information to >the world wide web or gopher? Not presently, no. And we're by no means alone in this, either. I *believe* there are plans to allow members to put pages on our WWW server, but I don't know the details. >Does AOL allow its members to maintain >mailing lists that are accessible from the Internet? Yes, we do. In fact, there are several AOL members running lists already. We don't presently run list management software, but again we are hardly alone in this respect. >I can understand >why AOL would not give random.internet.user access to its value added >services, but does AOL even allow Internet users to access its >discussion groups where everything was contributed by AOL members? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. Are you referring to local USENET groups, or in-house message boards? >Given that a lot of AOL's appeal comes from being able to use Internet >services (or else why would they advertise it?), I believe it is in >AOL's interest to contribute some things back to the net to help it >grow, and to allow its members to do the same. We don't disagree in premise. Have you checked out mirror.aol.com lately? >If the net only consisted of large service providers like AOL, most of >the services that make it valuable would not exist. Maybe. I don't see significant evidence to support your assertion. >AOL and >other providers should be *adding* value to the net, rather than >taking it away. Surely there are some things they can give back with >little additional effort on their part. Doing so would also enhance >AOL's reputation. A few suggestions would make it easier to respond to your complaints. >Personally, I would love to be able to refer net.newbies to AOL, but >only if I could count on AOL to not only give them an easy to use >interface, but also to teach them to be contributors to the net as a >whole. Maybe my experience is unique, but of all the services I've used -- university, small commercial providers and online services -- AOL makes more efforts to encourage its members to *participate* than the others. Certainly we're not perfect, and that's where constructive suggestions from outsiders are most important. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 11 23:22:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA02108 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 23:06:36 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id XAA02103 for ; Sat, 11 Feb 1995 23:06:31 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA22029; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 02:05:47 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 02:05:47 -0500 Message-Id: <950212020546_19512940@aol.com> To: bh@eng.auburn.edu Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Hartsfield writes: >Clients?? I run a large role-playing list and I do not consider the >members of the list clients or anything of that nature. Subscribers, then. Customers, be they paying or not. All mailing lists provide some sort of service to a readership, do they not? >Of course, given AOL philosophy of encouraging the use of internet and >usenet for commercial purposes and not informing its members of the >limits of commerical activites, this kind of terminology does not suprise >me from AOL. Very odd. I work here, and I know of no such philosophy. In fact, our philosophy is that commercial activities on the Internet and USENET belong *ONLY* in those areas where general etiquette and local guidelines permit. To wit, I copy from our "Newsgroups Terms of Service", a free document clearly available at the top level of our USENET Newsgroups area: "GUIDELINES It is important for members to make themselves aware of the various conventions, guidelines and local culture in Newsgroups before becoming an active participant. Read the document titled "IMPORTANT: Please Read" for general guidelines, as well as the articles posted to aol.motd, news.answers and news.newusers.questions. [ ... ] Postings that will result in Terms of Service actions include the following: CHAIN LETTERS. Chain letters are prohibited on America Online and the Internet. Posting a chain letter to Newsgroups (or via e-mail on the Internet) is an inappropriate thing to do and can result in your account being terminated or your access to Newsgroups being restricted. If you receive a chain letter from an America Online member, report it to postmaster@aol.com immediately. If you receive a chain letter from someone on the Internet, contact the postmaster at their site (using postmaster@their.domain.name; for example, postmaster@umd.edu). COMMERCIAL ARTICLES. The vast majority of Newsgroups are NOT commercial and participants in those Newsgroups will usually object strongly to commercial traffic. If you have any questions about a commercial article, contact NewsMaster, one of the America Online Cyberjockeys (identifiable by their screen name beginning with "CJ") or PMDAtropos for clarification. INAPPROPRIATE POSTS. Each Newsgroup focuses on a particular set of topics. Posts not related to these topics are not appreciated by the participants. It is important that America Online members become familiar with the culture and guidelines of a particular Newsgroup BEFORE posting. Doing so will make your experience with Newsgroups much more pleasant." Doesn't seem to be a philosophy of "encouraging the use of internet and usenet for commercial purposes and not informing its members of the limits of commerical activites" to me. >The vast majority of mailing lists do not have paying clients, but are >for the benfit of the net at large for free. In this, at the very least, we definitely agree. --David O'Donnell (PMDAtropos@aol.com, atropos@aol.net), etc. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 12 15:52:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA08983 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:45:38 -0800 Received: from bbfm.di.com (root@bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA08978 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:45:34 -0800 Received: from tune.di.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.9/TD-1.12) with SMTP id PAA03758 for on Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:44:40 -0800 Message-Id: <199502122344.PAA03758@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:44:31 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: today@di.com (Todd Day) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >AOL members now benefit from these services, but as far as I can tell, >neither AOL nor its members give anything back. I moderate the Talon/Eclipse/Laser digest (for those particular automobiles). In the last few months since AOL opened up to the net, most of the growth of my list has been due to AOL members. I now have about 30 of them on my list (out of 450). Half of these AOL members got onto AOL simply because they wanted to access my list. At first, I was a bit chagrined about this... after all, AOL was making bucks due to MY work. But then, I thought about it a bit. *MY* work? After all, I'm only an editor and publisher... my *newsletter* or *magazine* is only as good as my *writers*. As it turned out, most of these AOL people turned out to be some of the most knowledgable people and the most interesting writers about the cars. They weren't the ones asking dumb questions and not reading the archives for the info... they got their AOL account to discuss the car in the proper manner, and didn't want to waste their time and everyone else's with repeated questions, so they did their homework. As an aside... has anyone else ever gotten notes from their readership that border on worship? It's kinda bizarre thing... I've gotten notes from one guy saying that my digest is what keeps him going each day at an otherwise bleary job. Other people assume I'm the leading expert on these automobiles, even though I couldn't hold a candle to some of the people on my list. I've even gotten a letter from an AOLer suggesting that I start charging for subscriptions! Imagine someone getting something for free wanting to pay for it. I explained to this guy the "spirit of the net" and suggest that to pay me back, he "pay" the net back with some similar gesture. It's nice to get comments like these, and I suppose that's what keeps me going editing out 10 line .sigs and overincluded text... -todd- Todd Day today@di.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 12 16:22:23 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA09146 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:58:54 -0800 Received: from bbfm.di.com (root@bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA09141 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:58:51 -0800 Received: from tune.di.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.9/TD-1.12) with SMTP id PAA03813 for on Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:58:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199502122358.PAA03813@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:57:54 -0800 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: today@di.com (Todd Day) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnell writes: >Keith Moore writes: >>AOL and >>other providers should be *adding* value to the net, rather than >>taking it away. Surely there are some things they can give back with >>little additional effort on their part. Doing so would also enhance >>AOL's reputation. > >A few suggestions would make it easier to respond to your complaints. Well, David, forgive me if AOL isn't included in this, but I've seen a couple things lately that have bothered me about big providers and their cut-off from the rest of the net. I think Nightline has a forum that's either on C$erve or AOL, and isn't available elsewhere. I've seen a few customer support offerings available on a big provider, but not to the rest of the net. That's my biggest bitch about the big providers - their protection of what should be "public" information... treating it as if they own it. In my view, the second they connected to the net, they forfeited any claim they have to keeping their databases private (at least the databases that were generated by their customers). -todd- Todd Day today@di.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 12 21:22:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA11452 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:52:45 -0800 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (root@gagme.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id UAA11447 for ; Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:52:42 -0800 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0rdsoW-000FDvC; Sun, 12 Feb 95 22:55 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 22:55:07 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199502122344.PAA03758@bbfm.di.com> from "Todd Day" at Feb 12, 95 03:44:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1418 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day wrote, | Other people assume I'm the leading expert on these automobiles, even | though I couldn't hold a candle to some of the people on my list. I've gotten that on the Corolla List, even though I never contribute anything except administrative announcements. Of course, the people who write such things to me that way don't know that, since they are always non-members who have the idea that I'm some sort of official Internet Corolla expert; they mail me a bunch of questions or requests -- one jerk expected me to send him free manuals, including postage to Peru at my expense -- as if I had the answers. (Yes, I intended "official Internet" just as oxymoronically as it sounds.) In point of fact, I'm one of the least knowledgable list members. I explain to these people that I just run a mailing list and that they're welcome to join the list and then post their questions of the membership. I also ask them where they heard about the list, because their source gave them a wrong impression and I'd like to have correct information there instead. To date not one has ever written back to join nor to say where he or she got my address. Other than that my major headache with the Corolla List is people sending submissions to the -request address; some of them just will not learn and keep doing it again and again. I'll have to implement an autoresponder as I did with the Party of Five List. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 02:52:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id CAA14710 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 02:38:26 -0800 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id CAA14705 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 02:38:20 -0800 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id LAA28094; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 11:35:57 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA25073; Mon, 13 Feb 95 11:35:49 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 11:35:49 +0100 From: Per Starback Message-Id: <9502131035.AA25073@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for all the replies I got on my message on books listing mailing lists, including addresses and other information about various books. Normally I try to make sure that all information on "my" mailing list is correct and not misleading. The main reason I nevertheless asked you all if you think it's worth trying to correct what's in those books about Internet is because I know so little about them. Only if there are recurring books in ever new editions would there be any point in correcting information in them, and I thought that perhaps there rather are new books all the time that only appear in one edition each. I mentioned the "Internet Yellow Pages" and Stephanie da Silva surmised I meant the "Rider Internet Yellow Pages". If you say so... I just know what my subscribers have told me when I've asked them where they learnt about the list. As for AOL, they seem to be a popular target for attacks because of them letting their users roam about on the Net at large without knowing anything about what they're doing. I've too had my share of clueless AOL users but I think that things have become a lot better. In fact almost all AOL users who I've had to do with recently because of my mailinglist have behaved like well-informed responsible Net Citizens (TM). Of course that may be because I'm one of the "*tiny* percentage of list owners" (according to David O'Donnell) who actually have asked to not have the posting address included in AOL's list. I still think that list (and any list of mailing lists) by default shouldn't contain information on how to post to the list, but only include that if the list administrator explicitly asks for it. As for such lists of mailing lists I understand what David O'Donnell wrote about AOL's need of their own list of lists: > Because so many of our members don't understand anything at all > about the Internet, we provide more information than you'd find in a > 'typical' list-of-lists, and it's geared towards AOL members. but on the other hand I as a list administrator wouldn't have the time to send descriptions of my list to any number of email providers in any number of different formats if they all wanted their own lists. I want the time *I* spend on such activities to be for the good of the whole net community and not just (the customers of) one commercial vendor. (Keith Moore already made that point.) David has answered that he is planning to make the AOL list of mailing lists available to the Net at large, which I think is a good idea, but still it's true that it's impractical having to update information on a list in lots of places whenever anything changes. My ideal would be one single source about publicly accessible mailing lists. Only one place to look: if it isn't there, it's not public. Only one place to update entries in. If you update it there, the change will soon spread to other places too. I guess the nearest thing now to what I'd like is Stephanie's list even though it's not quite what I want. For one thing it's copyrighted and > No part of it may be reproduced in any form, except through normal Usenet > distribution channels, without explicit permission from the author. If for example someone makes a list of mailing lists having to do with comics I'd like them to be able to just lift the information on my list (which is about Disney comics) from that list. Ideally it should be possible to create an updated list of mailing lists on comics automatically every time a new version of the master list arrives, to be included in a WWW page on comics or whatever. As for the special needs of the presentation of mailing lists to customers of one particular provider of email perhaps the ideal would be if the list-of-lists had a more strict form with specific entries having specific attributes. Then a list with name: Disney comics mailing list managing-software: by-hand request-address: disney-comics-request@minsk.docs.uu.se ... might be automatically translated into a form suitable for a particular need. For experienced users a comprehensive list might say just contact: disney-comics-request@minsk.docs.uu.se where another version might expand that into To subscribe: Send a politely worded request to disney-comics-request@minsk.docs.uu.se. (which is an actual quote from the List of Lists at AOL). Also such localized versions of a master list of lists would make it possible to automatically translate email addresses into another format, such as ">INTERNET:disney-comics-request@minsk.docs.uu.se" or whatever. Also localized versions might ignore information on ftp servers or WWW servers for users without access to that. Well, I'll keep on dreaming... -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 03:52:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA15033 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 03:25:43 -0800 Received: from beer.pilsnet.sunet.se (beer.pilsnet.sunet.se [192.36.125.73]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA15028 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 03:25:38 -0800 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by beer.pilsnet.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id MAA29976; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:23:44 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA26338; Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:17:28 +0100 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 12:17:28 +0100 From: Per Starback Message-Id: <9502131117.AA26338@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: (dattier@wwa.com) Subject: List administrator woes (Was: Mailing lists mentioned i...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Somehow it feels good to hear about other list administrators having similar experiences that I have. I especially recognized what David W. Tamkin wrote about receiving lots of questions on Corolla from non-members who > have the idea that I'm some sort of official Internet Corolla > expert; they mail me a bunch of questions or requests -- one jerk > expected me to send him free manuals, including postage to Peru at > my expense -- as if I had the answers. Even when I do know the answers of such questions I don't feel I have the time to answer individual questions like that. I would much rather find some time to participate in the discussions on "my" mailing list (which I seldom do nowadays). I also recognize the part about them never writing back when I ask them about where they got information on the list and if they want to join. I guess many of them find it natural to assume that these mailing lists are run by someone with a commercial interest in the matter when that would be conceivable. For example that my list (on Disney comics) is in some way affiliated with the publishers of Disney comics or perhaps with Walt Disney Company. That would make some of those requests a bit more reasonable. Here's another pet peeve of mine: it seems like a non-negligable part of the subscribers who subscribe and then unsubscribe very soon after never even thought they were interested in the list -- they just subscribed because it was an assignment in some Computers and the Net 100 course to subscribe to a mailing list. I get sort of tired having to spend time on adding and deleting those users, and there's no target to direct my irritation at. Grrrr! Very frustrating. :-) Maybe I should just get mad at myself for not using list handling software... -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 03:54:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA15041 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 03:27:07 -0800 Received: from alterdial.UU.NET (0@alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA15036 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 03:27:04 -0800 Received: from paperboy by alterdial.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQycwz07285; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:24:54 -0500 Received: from art ([192.100.100.2]) by paperboy (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA18161; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:27:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199502131127.GAA18161@paperboy> X-Sender: art@192.100.100.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.0.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:23:29 +0500 To: thibault@intac.com From: mail02102@pop.net (Art Gravina) Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk George, this guy maintains a database of lists for AOL users. We should get on the list. Art Keith Moore writes: >It sounds like a valuable service. But most of the lists that you >advertise are run for the benefit of the entire net community -- not >just AOL. You are taking the time to collect the information and make >sure it's accurate -- for which I commend you -- but those list >maintainers are also taking their time to give you the information. >Why should they have to do this separately for AOL? That's a good question. Personally, I'd rather make sure that AOL members are provided complete, accurate and up to date information about my lists. Considering how many AOL members there are, making sure they have (or have easy access to) accurate information is important. The amount of time it takes to fill our (or verify) the information on a mailing list is miniscule compared to the benefit of AOL members having access to the information. BTW, we don't force list owners to have entries in our database. If a list owner says they don't want to be in the database, that's fine with us, but we can no longer guarantee that members will have access to accurate information on the list, and our ability to assist members who have questions (or who have followed inaccurate information) is compromised. We've never desired an antagonistic relationship with any list owners, and in fact I think our relationship with most owners is quite good. The AOL database provides a useful, accurate, easily-locatible resource for members. It helps teach them how to act in a responsible fashion on the Internet. It helps list owners by minimizing the errors members might otherwise have made, and it helps expose them to another two million or so potential clients. I hope this has helped answer your concern. If it hasn't, *please* let me know and I'll do my best to go into further detail. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 04:52:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA15852 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 04:27:40 -0800 Received: from shore.shore.net (shore.shore.net [192.233.85.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA15847; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 04:27:36 -0800 Received: by shore.shore.net id AA15502 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:25:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:25:05 -0500 (EST) From: Ira Krakow Subject: AOL and Proprietary Databases To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199502130900.BAA13007@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've had similar experiences as Todd in managing my list. I run an unmoderated, open mailing list for answering personal finance questions. I have the entire range of users on the list, from complete novices to experienced finance professionals. Both are needed, because if someone posts a question, someone else has to answer it. Many of the finance professionals on the list are AOL, Compu$erve, or Delphi subscribers. They perform a *vital* service for my list, but most of them are new to the Internet. I am not a finance professional - my role is to make it easy for them to answer questions. It's really worked well. Also, as far as AOL/CI$, etc. having proprietary discussions, I have nothing against it. However, eventually, they won't be able to compete with the variety and depth of discussions possible on the Internet. I think they are forced to open their subscribers to the Internet, and eventually the subscribers will figure out that it's cheaper to get a UNIX shell account. They'll also have better discussions. So while AOL/CI$, etc. are making a temporary profit, they're cutting their throats in the long run. They're just educating more users to the Internet. Ira Krakow (ikrakow@shore.net) Krakow Enterprises - "Your One-Stop Internet Information Center" Subscribe to our PERSonal FINancial Magazine (persfin-digest). email to majordomo@shore.net message: "subscribe persfin-digest" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 07:22:19 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA17508 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:54:32 -0800 Received: from netcom.netcom.com (higgins@netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA17503 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:54:30 -0800 Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id GAA21288; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:52:32 -0800 From: higgins@netcom.com (John Higgins) Message-Id: <199502131452.GAA21288@netcom.netcom.com> Subject: Re: AOL and Propreietary Databases To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 06:52:32 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 81 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gee, nobody seems to complian about proprietary stuff on The Well or Mindvox... From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 07:52:26 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA18167 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:42:36 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA18162 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:42:33 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA296719815; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:36:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:36:55 -0500 Message-Id: <950213103644_20577998@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Todd Day writes: >>A few suggestions would make it easier to respond to your complaints. > >Well, David, forgive me if AOL isn't included in this, but I've seen >a couple things lately that have bothered me about big providers and >their cut-off from the rest of the net. I think Nightline has a forum >that's either on C$erve or AOL, and isn't available elsewhere. I've seen >a few customer support offerings available on a big provider, but not >to the rest of the net. That's my biggest bitch about the big providers - >their protection of what should be "public" information... treating it as if >they own it. In my view, the second they connected to the net, they >forfeited any claim they have to keeping their databases private (at >least the databases that were generated by their customers). I'm not sure I'm getting what you're writing. Is it that you want service providers to make *all* information on their services freely available to everyone on the Internet? Or if not, what portion? What about sites with local USENET groups or mailing lists or discussion fora? --David From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 09:52:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA20437 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:51:22 -0800 Received: from atlantis.speedware.co.uk (atlantis.speedware.co.uk [193.128.27.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA20432 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:51:18 -0800 Message-Id: <199502131751.JAA20432@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by atlantis.speedware.co.uk (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA22857; Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:46:43 GMT From: Paul Bodiam Subject: Version of sendmail on HP To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:46:43 GMT Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Robin Getz asks: > sendmail (??) looked at the hp man pages & could not find anything> try "what /etc/sendmail" -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Bodiam | paul@speedware.co.uk | Do not meddle in | | Technical Support Consultant | Tel: 0171 828 1897 | the affairs of | | Speedware plc, Vincent House, | Fax: 0171 828 5904 | computers for they | | Vincent Square, London, SW1P 2NB | | are subtle and | | | | quick to anger | +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 10:22:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA20609 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:55:09 -0800 Received: from atlantis.speedware.co.uk (atlantis.speedware.co.uk [193.128.27.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA20598 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:55:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199502131755.JAA20598@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by atlantis.speedware.co.uk (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA22887; Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:50:31 GMT From: Paul Bodiam Subject: sendmail version CORRECTION To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com (list managers) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 95 17:50:30 GMT Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oops, sorry, Please disregard my previous mail To find the version of sendmail, try "what /usr/lib/sendmail". -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul Bodiam | paul@speedware.co.uk | Do not meddle in | | Technical Support Consultant | Tel: 0171 828 1897 | the affairs of | | Speedware plc, Vincent House, | Fax: 0171 828 5904 | computers for they | | Vincent Square, London, SW1P 2NB | | are subtle and | | | | quick to anger | +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 14:52:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA28236 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:31:53 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA28231 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:31:51 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id OAA06907; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:29:11 -0800 Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:29:24 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Per Starback cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files In-Reply-To: <9502131035.AA25073@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Per Starback wrote: > My ideal would be one single source about publicly accessible mailing > lists. Only one place to look: if it isn't there, it's not public. > Only one place to update entries in. If you update it there, the > change will soon spread to other places too. But the Internet doesn't like centralized anything (a mantra one can and should repeat over and over). What would be *nice* is an RFC describing standard public mailing list behavior, with a standard mailing list management package address (like what is now mainly majordomo@host or listserv@host, but it should be non-softwarepackage-specific) and a standard set of commands for learning about the lists offered and any other special information about them. Then robots could be written to traverse the net looking for lists, keeping lists-of-lists up to date, etc. Any takers? Brian From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 19:22:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA04919 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:09:29 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA04914 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 19:09:26 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id WAA13378; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:03:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199502140303.WAA13378@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Per Starback , list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:29:24 PST." Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 22:03:47 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What would be *nice* is an RFC describing standard public mailing list > behavior, with a standard mailing list management package address > (like what is now mainly majordomo@host or listserv@host, but it > should be non-softwarepackage-specific) and a standard set of commands > for learning about the lists offered and any other special information > about them. Then robots could be written to traverse the net looking > for lists, keeping lists-of-lists up to date, etc. Any takers? I've been interested in doing this for awhile, but I'm waiting until I get the RFC for email {non,}delivery reports finished. (this should also be of benefit to list managers, since it will enable automatic auto-deletion of users for whom mail bounces). A few years ago there was an effort to standardize list manager behavior and it failed miserably. At this point I think we would do well to just have: a) a template that describes a mailing list, much like the entry in a list-of-lists, but with a few fields rigidly defined. b) a MIME content-type for that template, so you can mail the things around. c) an extra header or two for list traffic that tells you either a portion of the list template (like how to unsubscribe or change your address), and/or a URL of the full template. Then you could use WWW to browse lists of lists, and press a button to auto-subscribe. Mail user agents could also recognize such objects, and allow you to subscribe, unsubscribe, change-address, post, mail-to-maintainer, etc., without your actually having to type in obscure commands or read any documentation. A Usenet newsgroup (sort of like comp.mail.maps) could be set up for posting list templates, and which could be sucked off by various archivers and made available to interested parties. Keith From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 13 22:23:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA07415 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:58:47 -0800 Received: from imsworld.com (ims1.imsworld.com [204.97.249.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA18186 for ; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 07:43:59 -0800 Received: by imsworld.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA18486; Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:40:46 -0500 From: bbirnbau@imsworld.com (Bradley Birnbaum) Message-Id: <9502131540.AA18486@imsworld.com> Subject: Not receiving all those subscription reqs! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 10:40:46 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm currently managing several lists that have many people signing up daily. I have the lists set to auto however I don't want a message mailed to me each time someone subscribes or unsubscribes. I think I read about a setting somewhere but now I can't seem to find it. Can someone please help me? Thanks. -- Bradley Birnbaum bbirnbau@imsworld.com System Administrator (516)273-2300 Interactive Marketing Services Fax:(516)273-2393 From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 10:22:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA21067 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:18:40 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA21054 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:18:23 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA04263 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:57:05 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA06097; 14 Feb 95 11:26:47 CST (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id LAA06094 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:26:46 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502141726.LAA06094@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:26:46 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 770 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Behlendorf : > What would be *nice* is an RFC describing > standard public mailing list behavior, with a standard mailing list > management package address (like what is now mainly majordomo@host or > listserv@host, but it should be non-softwarepackage-specific) and a > standard set of commands for learning about the lists offered and any > other special information about them. Then robots could be written to > traverse the net looking for lists, keeping lists-of-lists up to date, > etc. Any takers? Two comments about this. 1) Not all mailing lists are run using list management software (I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's the gist I'm getting). 2) Not all list owners want their lists advertised. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 11:54:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA23442 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:34:47 -0800 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA23437 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:34:43 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 95 14:34:59 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9502141435.aa15142@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva wrote: >Brian Behlendorf : >> What would be *nice* is an RFC describing >> standard public mailing list behavior, with a standard mailing list >> management package address (like what is now mainly majordomo@host or >> listserv@host, but it should be non-softwarepackage-specific) and a >> standard set of commands for learning about the lists offered and any >> other special information about them. Then robots could be written to >> traverse the net looking for lists, keeping lists-of-lists up to date, >> etc. Any takers? > >Two comments about this. > >1) Not all mailing lists are run using list management software (I may > be misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's the gist I'm getting). I get the same gist. And I have the same problem. *I* am the list management software here. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 12:52:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA24750 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:25:24 -0800 Received: from get.wired.com (get.wired.com [140.174.72.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA24745 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:25:20 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com by get.wired.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA03387; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:22:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:22:29 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files In-Reply-To: <199502141726.LAA06094@bonkers.taronga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Feb 1995, Stephanie da Silva wrote: > > What would be *nice* is an RFC describing > > standard public mailing list behavior, with a standard mailing list > > management package address (like what is now mainly majordomo@host or > > listserv@host, but it should be non-softwarepackage-specific) and a > > standard set of commands for learning about the lists offered and any > > other special information about them. Then robots could be written to > > traverse the net looking for lists, keeping lists-of-lists up to date, > > etc. Any takers? > > Two comments about this. > > 1) Not all mailing lists are run using list management software (I may > be misinterpreting what you're saying, but that's the gist I'm getting). > > 2) Not all list owners want their lists advertised. The spec should allow for both cases - majordomo at least allows you to set certain lists as unadvertised (even on a per-host-of-requestor basis!). The listing of available lists would be formatted, and whether that was done instantly by a list management package or not shouldn't make much difference. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 13:22:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA25517 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:21:56 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA25509 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:21:53 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id QAA15110; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:16:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199502142116.QAA15110@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned in books and files In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Feb 1995 11:26:46 CST." <199502141726.LAA06094@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:16:23 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As this relates to my suggestion for a standard mailing list template: > 1) Not all mailing lists are run using list management software. Yep. That's why the template. Experience says that we're not anywhere close to having a standard interface to the lists themselves. (My lists don't using list management software either.) > 2) Not all list owners want their lists advertised. Right, and some list owners want only some of the details advertised. (like maybe the listname, purpose, and contact info, but not the rest.) So any standard list template would need to be subsettable, and maybe even have a provision for distinguishing "public" (available to anyone) from "private" (available to members only) information. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 13:52:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA25747 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:28:52 -0800 Received: from bbfm.di.com (root@bbfm.di.com [204.74.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA25742 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:28:49 -0800 Received: by bbfm.di.com (8.6.9/TD-1.12) id NAA13175 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM on Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:28:06 -0800 From: Todd Day Message-Id: <199502142128.NAA13175@bbfm.di.com> Subject: Big providers and their responsibility to the net To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 13:28:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199502140900.BAA11008@miles.greatcircle.com> from "list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM" at Feb 14, 95 01:00:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1196 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We're getting a bit off topic here, but... > I'm not sure I'm getting what you're writing. Is it that you want service > providers to make *all* information on their services freely available to > everyone on the Internet? Or if not, what portion? What about sites with > local USENET groups or mailing lists or discussion fora? I don't think it would be asking too much to ask to open up some of the general interst groups to the outside world, since those groups are pretty much generated by the members. Also, things like vendors' customer support lines should be available. In the case of NightLine and things like it, I have the sneaking suspicion that the people who run Koppel's show were snowed about how much "the people" could actually gain access to their discussion group. As far as sites with local USENET groups... we'll, they're already carrying the main USENET groups, which are open to all. I'm not asking for full access to all of AOL's or C$erve's data... I'm asking them to give access to parts of their databases that have counterparts on the "free" part of the net. Be a good net.citizen and give back to the global community now that you are taking from it. -todd- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 16:54:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA29555 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:37:53 -0800 Received: from Sun.COM (koriel.Sun.COM [192.9.9.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id QAA29550 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:37:49 -0800 From: Kenneth.Kron@Eng.Sun.COM Received: from Eng.Sun.COM (engmail2.Eng.Sun.COM) by Sun.COM (sun-barr.Sun.COM) id AA11695; Tue, 14 Feb 95 16:35:55 PST Received: from kami.Eng.Sun.COM by Eng.Sun.COM (5.x/SMI-5.3) id AA01125; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:34:59 -0800 Received: by kami.Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6.9/SMI-SVR4) id QAA02953; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:31:21 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:31:21 -0800 Message-Id: <199502150031.QAA02953@kami.Eng.Sun.COM> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: SPAM light? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yet another message to filter from your list. I've gotten several of these lately. I don't know what package is causing it but it's obviously being automagically generated by the users mail reader. Fortunately I haven't seen this go into an infinite loop yet. kk ----- Begin Included Message ----- >From daemon@kami Thu Feb 9 22:30 PST 1995 From: "Dimiter Gerensky" To: martial-arts@martial-arts.Eng.Sun.COM Subject: RCPT: Priority: normal X-Bmw: Black Marble Wombat Version 5.1 Content-Type: text Content-Length: 166 X-Lines: 8 Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 9 Feb 95 14:38 To: martial-arts@martial-arts.Eng.Sun.COM Subject: Was read at 8:30, 10 Feb 95. ----- End Included Message ----- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 17:23:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA00231 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 16:54:28 -0800 Received: from oistrakh.msen.com (root@oistrakh.msen.com [148.59.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id AAA10701 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 00:41:17 -0800 Received: from heifetz.msen.com (heifetz.msen.com [148.59.1.1]) by oistrakh.msen.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA31706 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 03:39:21 -0500 Received: from hamjudo.UUCP by heifetz.msen.com with UUCP (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0re7Ln-000a6LC; Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:26 EST Received: by hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0re7HF-0000GqC; Mon, 13 Feb 95 15:21 EST Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:21:43 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Haas To: Per Starback cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing list for training was Re: List administrator woes ... In-Reply-To: <9502131117.AA26338@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Per Starback wrote: > Here's another pet peeve of mine: it seems like a non-negligable part > of the subscribers who subscribe and then unsubscribe very soon after > never even thought they were interested in the list -- they just > subscribed because it was an assignment in some Computers and the Net 100 > course to subscribe to a mailing list. I get sort of tired having to > spend time on adding and deleting those users, and there's no target > to direct my irritation at. Grrrr! Very frustrating. :-) Every introductory book on the C language starts with a program called "Hello World". We have no equivalent for mailing lists. If we had an equivalent, it would ease the training burden for the rest of the list administrators. A proposal for helloworld mailing lists: 1. Subscription, and unsubscription would go through the normal mechanisms, ie. listserv, majordomo, helloworld-request,... 2. Each night a robot sends the subscribers a message, something like hello, this is Tuesday, here is how to unsubscribe, other usefull mailing list resources are ... 3. People who fail to unsubscribe after 3 days are automatically dropped. 4. Mail to the list address would get a automatic reply, something like thanks for your message, had this been a real mailing list it would have gone to many, many people. Here are the first 10 lines of your message... 5. To prevent loops, the server can keep track of addresses for that last month, and silently drop excessive email. 6. There should be several similar mailing lists, so that no single postmaster is overwhelmed. 7. The software can be configured to only work for folks in a particular domain. ie. foo.edu could set up their own server to spare the rest of the net, without being obligated to serve the whole net. 8. An instructor could assign as homework subscribing, sending mail to the psuedo-list, and unsubscribing. The instructor could require that the students hand in the messages, or if the server runs at his institution, he could check the logs. Getting hit by the auto-unsubscriber should be points off. Questions: Is this worthwhile? Should I write some software to work with Majordomo? If I do write it, can someone port it to listserv? Would you be interested in running this at your site for public access? Would you be interested in running this at your site for local access only? I don't want to start an email training server, unless I knew there would be several others. My site is already used for some email training. The limiting resource is how much mail postmaster mail am I willing to put up with. The resources on the machine are pretty trivial. My hottub, hottub@hamjudo.com, is used by instructors at the Copenhagen Business School in Denmark as a homework assignment. It gets a lot of mail of the form: Hallo, test af email This is my very first e-mail i send out! ;-) Alas, since these folks are frequently just setting up their email, a small percentage of the messages have invalid headers. This means that postmaster@hamjudo.com (me) gets a few messages a week. 5% of 15 messages a day isn't bad. 5% of 1000 messages a day would be awkward. 5% of 10000 messages a day would be a problem. --- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com Web site: http://hamjudo.com/index.html Home: (313) 487-8739 Office: (313) 487-4357 Fax: (313) 487-4371 Finger or email my hottub at hottub@hamjudo.com, seen on TV From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 14 18:53:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA03010 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 18:29:49 -0800 Received: from possum (possum.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.224.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA02996 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 1995 18:29:29 -0800 Received: from [134.115.80.35] (asiapc12.csu.murdoch.edu.au) by possum (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18498; Wed, 15 Feb 95 10:32:00 WST Date: Wed, 15 Feb 95 10:31:59 WST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cummins@possum.murdoch.edu.au (Dr Jim Cummins) Subject: Majordomo on Solaris 2 Cc: steve@highway1.com.au, rehn@cleo.murdoch.edu.au, peter_w@numbat.murdoch.edu.au, dorling@numbat.murdoch.edu.au, hinchlif@numbat.murdoch.edu.au Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi: We have set up a new server in our school, a Sun workstation running Solaris 2, and I should like to make contact with anyone who has experience of installing Majordomo on this OS. There may well be bugs that we can avoid. This is being copied to Steve Hancock , a consultant who has provisionally contracted to do the installation. Any advice will be most gratefully received. Yours, virtually:- Jim "Spermatology rules o~ o~ o~ o~" Cummins Associate Professor in Veterinary Anatomy Murdoch University, Murdoch Western Australia 6150 Tel +61-9-360 2668 Fax +61-9-310 4144 E mail cummins@possum.murdoch.edu.au "I hate quotations" From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 15 19:41:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA09919 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:18:55 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA09913 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:18:52 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id TAA29479; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:16:26 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:18:42 -0800 To: today@di.com (Todd Day) From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:57 pm 2/12/95, Todd Day wrote: >my biggest bitch about the big providers - >their protection of what should be "public" information... treating it as >if they own it. In my view, the second they connected to the net, they >forfeited any claim they have to keeping their databases private (at >least the databases that were generated by their customers). Absolutely 100% affirmative to that: both AOL and CI$ act (and market themselves) like they're the "Onramps to the Information Superhighway" which is the most heinous insult to the rest of us out here creating content that they then take advantage of in the most blatant ways. For the enormous drain they place on the net's human and machine resources, they *should* be charged somehow: they're getting huge amounts of benefit for free and acting like they thought it all up. It's *outrageous*, imho. And Todd's right: they don't make even the slihgtest effort to share what they have on _their_ servers, do they! I'm not sure what can be done about this really, because I don't much want to end up treating them like they abuse the rest of the net, but tolerance of their membership flooding the net with idiotic questions before they even bother to learn what's up (of which I'm one when I want to be, BTW) is becoming more and more difficult: despite their protestations that they encourage their membership to listen first. I used to log on to AOL pretty frequently to teach, etc, and the mentality of the teens/etc on there is not one of earnest interest in learnign to co-exist and assimilate themselves into the larger net community. We can't really boycott them, but I sometimes get the urge... dave _______________________________________________ "The Internet is FULL already, so run along!" From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 15 19:43:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA09929 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:19:06 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA09924 for ; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:19:04 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id TAA29534; Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:16:37 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:18:57 -0800 To: mail02102@pop.net (Art Gravina) From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Cc: thibault@intac.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:23 pm 2/12/95, Art Gravina wrote: >BTW, we don't force list owners to have entries in our database. If a list >owner says they don't want to be in the database, that's fine with us [...] You should default to NOT including them. They should explictly ASK to be included. >We've never desired an >antagonistic relationship with any list owners, and in fact I think our >relationship with most owners is quite good. I think your though process is driven by a selfish corporate mentality, but that's probably obvious to everyone here, and perfectly understandable. >The AOL database provides a >useful, accurate, easily-locatible resource for members. It helps teach them >how to act in a responsible fashion on the Internet. THAT statement is a crock. There is NOTHING that AOL does that could possibly help teach any of its membership to act responsibly - they have to be responsible in the first place. Anyone who's been on AOL and seen the repeated, flagrant violations of its own Terms Of Service would never believe your statement for a millisecond, based on the mean behavioural quotient of the AOL membership. It may sound like I'm down on AOL, but I'm not, really. I've just learned to appreciate them for what they are: a commercial enterprise only slightly more polite than C&S and their ilk. As long as I know what I'm dealing with, OK, but AOL has to realize that it *already* has a bad rep on the net. Ignoring the PR aspect of what they do will only make the situation worse and end up in huge flame wars and other nastiness. I'd prefer we all live in peace, but I feel like AOL has a lot of making-up to do just to get to the table. >It helps list owners by >minimizing the errors members might otherwise have made, and it helps expose >them to another two million or so potential clients. Here is the problem in microcosm: AOL sees them as client$ and we see them as people. I'd prefer them to "discover" my services on their own rather than have you sell them the information that I exist without asking me if I want to be included or not. dave From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 03:41:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA22269 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:35:44 -0800 Received: from casti.com (vector.casti.com [204.91.98.64]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA22264 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 03:35:41 -0800 Received: by casti.com (8.6.9/NX3.0M) id GAA25020; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 06:30:45 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 06:30:45 -0500 (EST) From: David Casti To: Mark.R.Horton@att.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: our friends at cyber.sell.com In-Reply-To: <9502100926.ZM1551@stargate> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 10 Feb 1995 Mark.R.Horton@att.com wrote: > If Usenet were to become the private property of some entity, that entity > would have legal recourse against unauthorized appropriation of its property. I believe this is known as curing the disease by killing the patient. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Casti Pager: (800) 980-6227 Information Scientist http://www.casti.com/casti/David.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 04:41:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA22689 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 04:13:25 -0800 Received: from dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu [129.25.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id EAA22684 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 04:13:22 -0800 Received: from [158.254.10.56] (Robert Snyder@xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (8.6.9/8.6.4) with SMTP id HAA06212 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 07:09:14 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 07:11:12 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: snyderra@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Bob Snyder) Subject: Re: MIME-digestified mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:01 PM 2/9/95, Rich Zellich wrote: >software, then, silly" because *I'm* not the one in charge of anything >remotely having to do with what services are acquired and maintained >on any of our inhouse systems. > Then ask them nicely to install MIME-aware software. :-) Actually, MIME digests aren't that difficult to read as opposed to "normal" digests.... Bob -- Bob Snyder N2KGO MIME, PGP, RIPEM mail accepted snyderra@post.drexel.edu PGP & RIPEM keys on key servers When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 13:53:49 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA03683 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:35:20 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id NAA03678 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:35:17 -0800 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA26192; Thu, 16 Feb 95 16:34:06 EST Message-Id: <9502162134.AA26192@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Shahrukh Merchant Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 16 Feb 1995 15:24 EST Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... In-Reply-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto says: >At 5:23 pm 2/12/95, Art Gravina wrote: >>BTW, we don't force list owners to have entries in our database. If a list >>owner says they don't want to be in the database, that's fine with us [...] >You should default to NOT including them. They should explictly ASK to be >included. Several points here: 1. For directories to be of any use, they should default to being inclusive, but with the option of being unlisted upon request. Imagine how useless your phone book would be if it only contained listings of those who had *explictly* asked to be included! We publish a membership directory for a small club (about 300 members) for distribution to members of the club. We defaulted to work phone numbers being unlisted, except for those who asked. There was only one person who asked (me!). Then we defaulted to their being listed, except for those who requested otherwise. About 1% request otherwise, no complaints from anyone, and people appreciate the additional information. 2. I think the quote you attributed to Art Gravina was actually made by AOL postmaster David O'Donnell . 3. I have to say that most of the AOL-bashing seems exaggerated and counter-productive. Mr. O'Donnell seems genuinely willing to address the community's concerns and although one may still have some frustrations with newbies, dumping on someone who's trying to address the situation would hardly seem to help--I wouldn't stay around on this list to take abuse if I were trying to help matters. AOL is here to stay--if we think they should change some of the things they do, then we have the ear of someone who actually appears to have influence with the powers-that-be at AOL. One can use this channel to help matters, or waste if for one's own personal venting. Perhaps my lists do not attract the kind of "nuisance teenagers" that some people believe run rampant at AOL, but we have many subscribers from AOL on the ballroom list. These include some renowned ballroom professionals who would otherwise not have access to the Internet. Their presence has added greatly to the value of many of the discussions and, without exception (and without having to be told) they have not abused the medium for personal advertising of their services. They genuinely contribute and our lists have been better for it. Sure, AOL generates lots of newbies. But I think they seem to be disproportionately large because of the number of subscribers AOL has. As a _percentage of list membership_, however, AOL subscribers actually do fewer net.stupid things than other new subscribers. So perhaps AOL is truly making the effort they say they are in educating their users, and while they probably have further to go, I'd say that there has been a marked improvement from say, a year ago. I do not have an account on AOL, or own any stock in them--all these opinions are strictly based on my experience with AOL subscribers on the lists I manage. Shahrukh Merchant merchant@anuxv.att.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 20:10:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA11374 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:44:49 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA11369 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:44:46 -0800 From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA109132529; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:42:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:42:12 -0500 Message-Id: <950216201955_23750347@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List gateways Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Today I got my first request to gateway my list through a single address for members of a commercial service. Does anyone with more experience in these matters have any opinions on the pros or cons of this type of arrangement? Thanks in advance. Deb dwalheim@aol.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 22:10:55 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA13060 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:03:45 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id WAA13055 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:03:42 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id AAA01189; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 00:58:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199502170558.AAA01189@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: DWalheim@aol.com cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: List gateways In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:42:12 EST." <950216201955_23750347@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 00:57:37 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Today I got my first request to gateway my list through a single > address for members of a commercial service. Does anyone with more > experience in these matters have any opinions on the pros or cons of > this type of arrangement? Thanks in advance. >From the point-of-view of the list owner, pros: + If you're lucky, the people at the other end will take care of all subscribe/unsubscribe requests and all bounces for that site. cons: + If you're unlucky, bounces at the remote site will still come back to you or to the sender of the original message. Then you get to try and figure out what address *really* bounced (since it's not one of those on your subscriber list). This gets even worse if people at that remote site forwarded their mail somewhere else, or if the remote system generates lousy delivery reports and/or doesn't keep the rfc 822 Received headers. + You don't have any control or knowledge of who is on your list. some lists exercise control over who can join, some don't. For sites that gateway mailing lists to local newsgroups (where anybody can easily read the list traffic without making prior arrangements), the signal-to- noise ratio on the list can decline. Restricting list traffic to those who ask to be on the list can be an effective way of keeping some of the riff-raff out. Of course the remote site wins if they send the message to a local newsgroup, because they only have to store one copy of the message. Sometimes recipients at the remote site prefer to read lists this way, because they arrive pre-sorted into categories instead of all getting stuffed into the same mailbox. (Better sites allow mail delivery directly to folders: mail to moore+listmgrs@cs.utk.edu automagically ends up in my "listmgrs" folder.) There's a widely held misconception that funneling things through a single remote address saves a significant amount of network bandwidth and time on the local machine. It doesn't, at least not unless you have a very naive list expander. Even sendmail knows enough to send only one copy of a message to any mail domain; all the list expander has to do is pass all addresses for any one domain in the same call to sendmail. I don't think it matters whether the sub-list is run by a commercial service. At least it hasn't made a difference in my experience. My usual policy for sub-lists is this: I allow them, but ONLY if the sub-list expander is written so that all bounces go to the maintainer of the sub-list, and not to me. (I also refer them to the section of RFC 1123 that requires that all mailing lists do this.) If any recipient on a sub-list bounces mail, the entire list gets removed. For some lists, particularly small ones, I do not allow sub-lists at all. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 16 23:40:55 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA14301 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 23:22:21 -0800 Received: from bb.hks.net (bb.hks.net [199.183.60.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id XAA14295 for ; Thu, 16 Feb 1995 23:22:17 -0800 Received: (from field@localhost) by bb.hks.net (8.6.9/8.6.9-bb2) id CAA15915 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 02:16:39 -0500 Received: from GATEWAY by bb.com with netnews for list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers@greatcircle.com) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 17 Feb 1995 02:13:13 -0100 From: cactus@seabsd.hks.net (A Loose Affiliation of Millionaires and Billionaires and Babies) Message-ID: <3i1489$ii@seabsd.hks.net> Organization: Hell's Kitchen Software References: <9502162134.AA26192@ig1.att.att.com> Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Shahrukh Merchant wrote: >3. I have to say that most of the AOL-bashing seems exaggerated and > counter-productive. Yup. I also have to mention that I'm tired of the Permanent Floating Stephanie Vs. AOL Flamewar spilling over onto half the mailing lists I read. That's why I stopped reading much Netnews (where I first ran into the PFSVAO over a year ago)... - -- Todd Masco | "Change is not only necessary, it is inevitable." cactus@hks.net | - Frank Zappa Cactus' Homepage -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBL0QTcxNhgovrPB7dAQH8ggQA4nPpivbyGN9hFcBsrlMxaQkELDzfFl64 IV11XwtD975573MZWqkJjCfWKw/YR0IxXGoJjJB1PAWZSpMevTIhwNo1HDbFPCbg CnEnyTD0QG4BkDDn5B3Z4MBc+Bs1LiUiM1cb+rp1t3lXpmHHJdKdQSH+3yBshT2f QuLuyehlRxY= =EZbm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 03:41:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA19113 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 03:35:12 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA19108 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 03:35:08 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id DAA27299; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 03:32:51 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 03:35:10 -0800 To: Shahrukh Merchant From: Dave Del Torto Subject: AOL Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:24 pm 2/16/95, Shahrukh Merchant wrote: >>At 5:23 pm 2/12/95, Art Gravina wrote: >>>BTW, we don't force list owners to have entries in our database. If a list >>>owner says they don't want to be in the database, that's fine with us [...] > >>You should default to NOT including them. They should explictly ASK to be >>included. > >Several points here: > >1. For directories to be of any use, they should default to being > inclusive, but with the option of being unlisted upon request. Perhaps, but then the default action should be to poll the list-managers *first*, asking if they want to be included in AOL's directory, rather than generating a huge list and posting it, resulting in floods of mail to lists that might prefer not to be known to AOL members for their own reasons. Do you think I'm being unreasonable here? I don't. I think of it as a basic courtesy (polling first), since AOL is trying to generate money by essentially taking advantage of lots of volunteer list managers' time and trouble. > Imagine how useless your phone book would be if it only contained > listings of those who had *explictly* asked to be included! That's true for phone books, but we're not talking about phone books here, are we? (rhetorical question :) [...] >2. I think the quote you attributed to Art Gravina was actually made > by AOL postmaster David O'Donnell . It was automatically attributed thusly because Art zapped the "so-and-so said" line, breaking the chain of attributions. I wish I had time to go back and keep house for everyone else, but alas... anyway, I was sort of assuming that based on context, but if it was unclear to anyone else, my sincere apologies to Mr. O'Donnell, et alia. >3. I have to say that most of the AOL-bashing seems exaggerated and > counter-productive. Under the current circumstances, with the way AOL is arrogantly approaching the rest of the net as its backyard, the word "bashing" seems itself to be a bit disingenuous or perhaps overmuch sensitized. Do you have an AOL account? I've been on there since before it went public and I suppose what may appear to be "bashing" to you may just be years of pent-up frustration on my part leaking out. I don't think that anything I said was untrue, and I certainly didn't try to insult anyone, even if my tone did seem a bit strident to you. Frankly, I've read a lot worse about AOL and even some of _that_ was true, if rudely presented (present company excepted). Sure, I've met interesting people on AOL and sometimes still revisit to see what's new or help them test new betas, but all things considered, AOL is not much more than a canned, commercial, fairly uptight service, and over the years I've spent on the net, that sort of thing has more and more approached the Prodigy model than the model of what I love about the anarchistic Internet. AOL still retains a warm'n'fuzzy spot in my heart because they do the whole commercial thing so much better than anyone else, and at its worst it's not as sinister as some other services, and at its best it's pretty cool. BTW, I feel I've *earned* the right to criticize AOL, since I've spent so much effort (and $ dagnabbit!) helping to build it over the years - and I still spend a lot of time educating its members, etc. I try to be constructive and add positive suggestions, but overall, I'm somewhat discouraged about its future lately (not its growth, but its quality curve), due to disturbing trends among the membership and an apparent lack of sensitivity among the executives to the Rest of Us. I don't see the same "improvements," you do Shahrukh, and in fact, what I see is a degradation in the knowledge levels of AOLers venturing outside the cave. Worries me, it does. >Mr. O'Donnell seems genuinely willing to > address the community's concerns and although one may still have > some frustrations with newbies, dumping on someone who's trying > to address the situation would hardly seem to help--I wouldn't stay > around on this list to take abuse if I were trying to help matters. Nothing I said was intended to make David feel like running away, and I think he's got thick enough skin by now to take what I say in stride. Actually, he's one of the brighter spots on the AOL horizon, from what I can see. Maybe seeing some mild vitriol here and there will help him understand the seriousness of the vibe AOL is engendering out on the net at large and prompt him to, and/or provide him with the ASCII ammo to, get his higher-ups to make some badly-needed changes for the better. Start with some serious member education, David. I mean that in the *nicest* way, too. It's not like Steve Case even reads, much less responds to, his own mail... > AOL is here to stay--if we think they should change some of the > things they do, then we have the ear of someone who actually appears > to have influence with the powers-that-be at AOL. One can use > this channel to help matters, or waste if for one's own personal > venting. A little venting is not such a bad thing, imho, as long as there's no ad hominem flaming (which I scrupulously avoid at all times). Cheers, dave ___________________________________________________________________________ "When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite." -W. Churchill From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 07:11:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA21788 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 07:10:35 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA21783 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 07:10:32 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 09:08:32 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 17 Feb 95 08:49:19 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: <8V6N1c10w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 95 07:27:18 CST In-Reply-To: Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2836 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to add something to this discussion of AOL as an Internet carrier and their mailing list policies. Some background on me: I run three small lists, the largest being my New Orleans list with 300-400 subscribers. These lists are run from my pc-based BBS system, which has a uucp link to the net. While I find it difficult to hold AOL responsible for the irresponsible actions of its members (such as the woman who threatened me with legal action, accusing me of harassing her because mail from my list continued for several hours after she signed off, not taking the uucp time lag into account), I can't help but wonder why they can't put someone on staff to function as a liaison between the established net community (system administrators, listowners, etc.) and their users. I've had the occasional problem with a user, either personal or technical, where I've been able to write the sysadmin of the site and work things out. The only time I ever received a reply from anyone who worked for AOL was when one of my listmembers from AOL wrote to them to explain my concerns. The only response I ever received prior to that was the AOL replybot. I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject subscriptions from users in the domain aol.com. I get my uucp feed from a local university who provides it as a public service. The sysadmin at the host site gets Cc:'d on bounce messages that pass through to uucp sites. This morning, AOL sent my system over 80 bounce messages saying that various accounts had full mailboxes. Of course, the ultimate irony of those bounce messages was that the original message was from an AOL member complaining to the list address about how he couldn't remember how to unsubscribe to the list. :( Now, had the bounce messages originated from just about any other site, I could have contacted the sysadmin and asked them to check out the problem from a technical angle, it's quite likely that I would have received some sort of response. Try contacting AOL, you get the replybot. Meanwhile, the sysadmin of my mailhost has warned me that he'd like me to reject aol.com users to keep the bounce traffic to a minimum. Not being one to wear out my welcome on his system, I'll certainly comply with his request. So, are my AOL problems unique to my site? I know that many of the larger list management programs like majordomo can filter out a lot of the extraneous messages and bounces and such, so am I perceiving more of a problem because I don't have such a system? Or, are others having similar problems dealing with AOL management? Cheers, Ed. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 12:11:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA27084 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:51:47 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA27079 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:51:38 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA17634 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:23:17 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA26347; 17 Feb 95 12:15:55 CST (Fri) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id MAA26344 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:15:54 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502171815.MAA26344@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:15:53 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1009 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: cactus@seabsd.hks.net > > Yup. I also have to mention that I'm tired of the Permanent Floating > Stephanie Vs. AOL Flamewar spilling over onto half the mailing lists I > read. That's why I stopped reading much Netnews (where I first ran into > the PFSVAO over a year ago)... Hm, you must have a low flame threshhold about this since it hasn't surfaced all that much. I am annoyed because it never was resolved. Tho perhaps you'd feel differently if some big commercial provider took your FAQ, mismanaged it to where one of the ramifications was your mailbox was flooded with hundreds of clueless letters over a period of three months, and who ignored your pleas to correct the situation? Then turn around and say it was your fault that the problems occured when you didn't even have access to said big commercial provider nor any input on what they did with your FAQ? And after all this, not even take responsibility for what happened or apologize for unfairly dumping the blame on you? From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 14:14:50 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA00504 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:48:04 -0800 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA00499 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:48:01 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA120347501; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:45:01 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:45:01 -0500 Message-Id: <950217164453_24684097@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailing lists mentioned i... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephane da Silva writes: >Tho perhaps you'd feel differently if some big commercial provider took >your FAQ, >From what I was told by the person who set the mailing lists area up in the first place, you extended permission to use your PAML as the AOL mailing list database. I am not aware of any FAQ being involved. >mismanaged it to where one of the ramifications was your mailbox >was flooded with hundreds of clueless letters over a period of three >months As I tried to explain to you over a year ago, *there is nothing I can do about what happened with the lists database before I started working at AOL*. I said then that I was sorry you were "flooded" with "clueless letters". At your demand, I removed all reference to your name from the database, and it has *remained* excised from the database. AOL database entries have been designed to give specific information targetted to AOL member needs. The current format is designed in part to avoid possible confusion and linkage between the PAML and AOL database. I studiously avoid your PAML on USENET to keep from even the slightest implication that it and our database are related. We DO NOT tell our members to turn to you for assistance. On the few occasions AOL members interested in writing help docs for other members have asked about mentioning the PAML, I have encouraged them not to because of the reception you are likely to give anyone from AOL asking a question. If this is classified as arrogance, then so be it: I would far rather have my members ask questions of someone who will reply pleasantly than someone who is as likely to flame them. >and who ignored your pleas to correct the situation? Then turn >around and say it was your fault that the problems occured when you didn't >even have access to said big commercial provider nor any input on what >they did with your FAQ? Did you ever ask for access? Did you give consideration to the possible effect of providing the PAML before giving permission? >And after all this, not even take responsibility >for what happened or apologize for unfairly dumping the blame on you? I don't have any recollection at all of blaming you for what happened. If the first piece of mail I had gotten from you had not been so incredibly hostile, I would have been more than happy to do whatever possible to work with you to alleviate any problems our members may have caused. Instead, you convinced me that it would be in our best interests to work directly with list owners -- which I still think is the best route. As far as I am concerned, this should be the end of the discussion. If you have unresolved issues with people at America Online, then you should take the issues up with them directly. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 20:12:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA09056 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 19:53:56 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA26351 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:12:20 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA25629; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:09:51 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:09:51 -0500 Message-Id: <950217130501_24468482@aol.com> To: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Edward J. Branley writes: >I can't help but wonder why they can't put someone on staff to >function as a liaison between the established net community (system >administrators, listowners, etc.) and their users. I've had the occasional >problem with a user, either personal or technical, where I've been able to >write the sysadmin of the site and work things out. The only time I ever >received a reply from anyone who worked for AOL was when one of my >listmembers from AOL wrote to them to explain my concerns. The only response >I ever received prior to that was the AOL replybot. This confuses and bothers me for several reasons. For one, *I* am (a) liaison, at least the primary one, and have been for over a year. Up until recently, I was the one who answered *every* piece of mail sent to postmaster@aol.com, listmaster@aol.com, usenet@aol.com, newsmaster@aol.com and a good share of root@aol.com. I have had a n assistant for the past several months who handles routine postmaster mail, and forwards anything otherwise directly to me. So far, this mail is the the (second?) time I've ever heard from you. If you've gotten the ackbot message, then your mail *was* received by postmaster@aol.com/usenet@aol.com. Since I never got anything forwarded, the mail was either a complaint about an AOL member (in which case the complaint was sent to Terms of Service for processing) or for some reason my assistant felt it was not necessary to forward it on to me. I find it hard to believe that he would do this. In the past, the volume of mail we received was low enough that I could personally respond to every piece of mail received. Today, this is no longer the case because the volume *is* higher. We do still manage to respond to many of the messages received at postmaster, and I respond to all listmaster and newsmaster mail. >I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject subscriptions >from users in the domain aol.com. I get my uucp feed from a local university >who provides it as a public service. The sysadmin at the host site gets Cc:'d >on bounce messages that pass through to uucp sites. This morning, AOL sent my >system over 80 bounce messages saying that various accounts had full >mailboxes. Of course, the ultimate irony of those bounce messages was that >the original message was from an AOL member complaining to the list address >about how he couldn't remember how to unsubscribe to the list. :( This is understandably irritating. I receive several hundred pieces of mail a day for the three lists I run. Most of the mail comes from non-AOL sites, much of it from users whose quotas have been exceeded, who have lost their accounts, etc. -- typical list admin messages. Mail I get regarding AOL subscribers whose mailboxes have filled result in their subscriptions to my lists being ended. If members cannot be bothered to read or download their mail regularly, they obviously aren't that interested in my lists (one of which runs an average of 100 pcs a day). We *DO* tell them to be careful when joining lists, and we *DO* tell them to manage their mailboxes. 550 pieces of mail per user on our host system is not unreasonable, especially when it is quite easy to transfer all of your mail from the host to your local computer on a regular basis (as often as once an hour). >So, are my AOL problems unique to my site? I know that many of the larger >list management programs like majordomo can filter out a lot of the >extraneous messages and bounces and such, so am I perceiving more of a >problem because I don't have such a system? Or, are others having similar >problems dealing with AOL management? For those list packages which dump Precedence: bulk mail, our mail system is being changed to include that header on all mailbox-full mail. I'm hoping that the mail system we are moving towards will be able to remove limits altogether. Any suggestions list owners have on how to encourage members to intelligently manage mail are *most* appreciated, especially as I am working on revising our mailing list area online. And Mr Branley, if you can give me any of the dates when you sent mail to postmaster/listmaster/newsmaster, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to know how you can be sending mail to us, getting an ack reply, and then have mail apparently just *disappear*. -- ___David O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \ America Online Postmaster, USENET Admin | Tel. +1 703/556-3725 \ Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Admin | FAX +1 703/883-1514 \http://www.blue.aol.com/people/o/dbo.html \/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 17 22:42:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA11347 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:16:17 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA11342 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:15:54 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23737 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Fri, 17 Feb 1995 23:35:27 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA00730; 17 Feb 95 14:59:30 CST (Fri) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id OAA00727 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:59:29 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502172059.OAA00727@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: More on Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:59:28 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2981 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per Starback says: > My ideal would be one single source about publicly accessible mailing > lists. Only one place to look: if it isn't there, it's not public. > Only one place to update entries in. If you update it there, the > change will soon spread to other places too. Occasionally someone has brought this up to me, usually questioning the legitimacy of so many different mailing list compilations. The way I see it is Usenet's an anarchy, which means that anyone may create such a list if they so desire, even if someone else has already done one. Besides, there's not really all that much overlap. There's the SRI list which contains a lot of Bitnet mailing lists. There's one at Dartmouth and I've heard of one at Princeton, tho I have yet to find it. Putting the large lists aside, there are a plethora of smaller ones that usually cover a more focused subject, like the Musical List of Lists. Getting back to your comment, what you suggest is a pretty enormous undertaking. I don't know if I'd want to dump so much responsibility on any single entity. I have no idea how many public Internet/Usenet lists there are out there, but I've heard it estimated in the area of four to five thousand. > I guess the nearest thing now to what I'd like is Stephanie's list > even though it's not quite what I want. For one thing it's > copyrighted... I put the copyright on when every publisher and his grandmother decided to do a book or three on the Internet. It's really to keep it from being abused in that media, since book publishers do seem to respect copyrights (unlike some people on the Internet that I've run across). > If for example someone makes a list of mailing lists having to do with > comics I'd like them to be able to just lift the information on my > list (which is about Disney comics) from that list. I have no problem with someone using the PAML as a research source so long as they don't just take the text as is and claim it's theirs. > Even when I do know the answers of such questions I don't feel I have > the time to answer individual questions like that. I would much > rather find some time to participate in the discussions on "my" > mailing list (which I seldom do nowadays). When I get personal questions like this, I'll return their message with a short note telling them the questions related to the list should be posted to the list address, and give them the posting address. > Here's another pet peeve of mine: it seems like a non-negligable part > of the subscribers who subscribe and then unsubscribe very soon after > never even thought they were interested in the list -- This is annoying, yes. I try to head them off, too. When I get, "Sign me up, I'm interested in all things Disney!" I'll respond that it isn't a generic Disney list and I don't think it's what they're looking for. Sometimes that isn't enough to discourage them and they sign anyways, only to drop the next day or the day after. From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 08:10:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA18933 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 07:49:58 -0800 Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (newhamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id HAA18928 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 07:49:54 -0800 Received: from [192.33.12.181] (mac181.hampshire.edu) by hamp.hampshire.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21092; Sat, 18 Feb 95 10:50:45 EST Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 10:50:41 EST Message-Id: <9502181550.AA21092@hamp.hampshire.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Subject: Re:AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Branley writes: >So, are my AOL problems unique to my site? I know that many of the larger >list management programs like majordomo can filter out a lot of the extraneous >messages and bounces and such, so am I perceiving more of a problem because I >don't have such a system? Or, are others having similar problems dealing with >AOL management? One of my lists is a relatively small list (say, 150 folk), but is semi-private (for a very specific audience). The list got its primary advertisement initially on AOL, because I had been on AOL at one time, and was a "staff member" (I've forgotten what the real term is for a volunteer who gets some free online time for doing stuff), knew a forum host who could post a message about the new list on one of the bulletin boards. Thus, 50% or more of my list subscribers are from AOL, since our general net visibility is very low, and word of mouth (word of key?) on AOL is pretty strong. Now, I've spent lots of time, and $ also, on AOL, and am quite familiar with its workings. For some people, including me, AOL is really not so great. But for a large number of folks AOL (and services like it) is a godsend. They would not be on-line without it. As a list manager, I've had mostly negative experience with AOL. By negative, I really mean that I've gotten no help when I needed it. I've written the postmaster on a number of occasions, and gotten no response whatsoever (I did not get an acknowledgement). At one point, for some reason, no AOL members were getting mail from my list. I wrote the post master a few times about the problem, to no avail. It turns out it was my site, but I had a lot of troubleshooting work to do, and could have used a little bit of help in that process, especially since this list is so heavily populated by AOL members (which I mentioned in my messages to the postmaster). One of the things I appreciate most about the net is that there is a general understanding that it is *people* who keep stuff going. Not only the people who keep the software written, but those of us who keep lists going, FAQs written, gopher holes maintained etc. And the bulk of us DON'T GET PAID FOR IT (many even pay money to do it). And there is an appreciation for us. After a while, even newbies realize that this stuff doesn't just arrive from thin air. But as users from large commercial services begin to take advantage of the work all of us put in, they come from an entirely different culture, and think that they are paying for the services *we* provide. Well they are, but are we seeing *any* benefit? I must admit, though, most of my AOLers do realize the work I put in to maintain the list. But it does piss me off that AOL is making money on ME (In fact, if I wanted to, I could probably calculate how much AOLers on my list have paid AOL for the time they spend writing and reading mail on my list - which they wouldn't have made if I never started, and didn't maintain, the list) . Not that I want $ for it, I just think we should get something back. Also, AOLs interface is so glossy, and nice, that it is never clear where AOL ends and the internet begins. So this encourages AOL users to treat the net like they treat AOL. We are going to have to eventually deal in some way with this clash of cultures. Although I don't expect the majority of AOL or Prodigy users to use the internet with the same kind of abandon college students do, and luckily the front edges of the net change so fast that it takes time for AOL and Prodigy to catch up, and users who really want to surf go to other providers, there still is the potential for some serious conflict. Michelle =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. email and finger: School of Natural Science mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Hampshire College, mmurrain@family.hampshire.edu Amherst, MA 01002 (413) 582-5688 fax:(413) 582-5448 URL: http://www.hampshire.edu/Hampshire/ns/html/Murrain.html =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 09:41:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA20362 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 09:13:17 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA20357 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 09:13:13 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:11:10 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 18 Feb 95 08:23:29 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 08:14:55 CST In-Reply-To: <950217130501_24468482@aol.com> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3428 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!aol.com!PMDAtropos writes: > This confuses and bothers me for several reasons. For one, *I* am (a) > liaison, at least the primary one, and have been for over a year. Up until > recently, I was the one who answered *every* piece of mail sent to > postmaster@aol.com, listmaster@aol.com, usenet@aol.com, newsmaster@aol.com > and a good share of root@aol.com. I have had a n assistant for the past > several months who handles routine postmaster mail, and forwards anything > otherwise directly to me. > > So far, this mail is the the (second?) time I've ever heard from you. If > you've gotten the ackbot message, then your mail *was* received by > postmaster@aol.com/usenet@aol.com. Since I never got anything forwarded, the > mail was either a complaint about an AOL member (in which case the complaint > was sent to Terms of Service for processing) or for some reason my assistant > felt it was not necessary to forward it on to me. I find it hard to believe > that he would do this. That's your problem, not mine. I could care less what the reasons are that you or someone in the AOL organization didn't feel it necessary to reply to my messages. The fact is that you didn't e-mail me until one of the subscribers to the New Orleans Mailing List who is an AOL customer sent feedback to you folks. If your internal method of handling complaints is to send them to "Terms of Service" (whatever in the world that is) to be "processed," then I submit that this is where the system is most likely breaking down. You say you're the person in the liaison role, yet you also say that complaints about users go someplace else. Which is it? While having someone to handle technical issues is important, maintaining good relations with the rest of the world when your users annoy the rest of the world isn't a bad thing, either. My only impression of your service as liaison is that you didn't react until one of your customers suggested you react. > This is understandably irritating. I receive several hundred pieces of mail a > day for the three lists I run. Most of the mail comes from non-AOL sites, > much of it from users whose quotas have been exceeded, who have lost their > accounts, etc. -- typical list admin messages. Mail I get regarding AOL > subscribers whose mailboxes have filled result in their subscriptions to my > lists being ended. If members cannot be bothered to read or download their > mail regularly, they obviously aren't that interested in my lists (one of > which runs an average of 100 pcs a day). We *DO* tell them to be careful when > joining lists, and we *DO* tell them to manage their mailboxes. 550 pieces of > mail per user on our host system is not unreasonable, especially when it is > quite easy to transfer all of your mail from the host to your local computer > on a regular basis (as often as once an hour). It's more than understandably irritating. If there are more folks out there who are running into the same problems as I am, more and more of the Internet is going to become closed off to AOL users. That's going to end up one day as a story in the Wall Street Journal if you folks don't take some sort of pro-active attitude to work on the problem. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 09:43:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA20429 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 09:20:05 -0800 Received: from sunshine.eushc.org (sunshine.eushc.org [163.246.96.102]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA20424 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 09:20:02 -0800 Received: (root@localhost) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.9/EUSHC) with UUCP id MAA17724; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:18:05 -0500 Received: by mind.org (8.6.9/mind.org) with UUCP id KAA30752; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 10:22:21 -0500 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 18 Feb 95 09:21:59 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 08:43:12 EST In-Reply-To: <950217130501_24468482@aol.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PMDAtropos@aol.com (David O'Donnell) writes: > >So, are my AOL problems unique to my site? I know that many of the larger > >list management programs like majordomo can filter out a lot of the > >extraneous messages and bounces and such, so am I perceiving more of a > >problem because I don't have such a system? Or, are others having similar > >problems dealing with AOL management? > > For those list packages which dump Precedence: bulk mail, our mail system is > being changed to include that header on all mailbox-full mail. I'm hoping > that the mail system we are moving towards will be able to remove limits > altogether. Any suggestions list owners have on how to encourage members to > intelligently manage mail are *most* appreciated, especially as I am working > on revising our mailing list area online. > In my experience, AOL admins have always been responsive. Errors in the database had apparently been corrected on request and couple of lists I had closed were deleted promptly on request. In my lists, there is a fair mix of aol users who contribute good stuff and aol users who shoot bizarre off-topic mail. AOLers tend to be the ones posting off-topic mail often - especially new subscribers. My lists are moderated, however. I get my share of mailbox-full mail from AOL. As my policy is "no tolerance" for bounces (except communication errors), such users get signed off and I have not heard of any complaints so far. The problem I have with AOL users is that they have a database to consult. They use this to subscribe, but for some reason they cannot seem to be able to use that to sign off. Perhaps AOL needs a mailing list how-to document for them to refer to to solve problems they face with list mail. They start by sending mail to the list to take them off or send mail to the owner saying "Take me off *this* list". Owners running many lists are clueless as to what *this* list is. Secondly, they don't read and interpret the internet mail headers. I believe AOL tacks on the entire header list at the end of the message. They should be told as to what the headers mean and that sometimes, the headers do carry information such as how to get help, how to sign off etc. They also should be emphatically told that most lists are volunteer owned and labor of love. List owners are not to be treated like a commercial provider, but as hosts of the places they are visiting as guests. Some AOL members seem to think that it is all the list owner's fault that they are drowning in irrelevant mail. Here are some suggestions re the database. I have no personal objection to AOL maintaining a list database. But.. 1. Ensure that the database is accurate by periodically sending out confirmation request to the list owners as to the correctness of information. Even once a year.. may be. 2. Please do send a notification to the list owner if you are adding a new entry prior to making it active and honor the list-owner's wishes/corrections etc. I think that list owners should realize that there is going to be a great influx of newcomers as the commercial services open up to the Internet and the associated problems/benefits because of this. One should be prepared to deal with it. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 12:41:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA23106 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:35:37 -0800 Received: from netcom7.netcom.com (higgins@netcom7.netcom.com [192.100.81.115]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA23101 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:35:34 -0800 Received: by netcom7.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id MAA18957; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:33:31 -0800 From: higgins@netcom.com (John Higgins) Message-Id: <199502182033.MAA18957@netcom7.netcom.com> Subject: Re: AOL To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 12:33:31 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1694 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk But as users from large commercial > services begin to take advantage of the work all of us put in, they come > from an entirely different culture, and think that they are paying for the > services *we* provide. Well they are, but are we seeing *any* benefit? I > must admit, though, most of my AOLers do realize the work I put in to > maintain the list. But it does piss me off that AOL is making money on ME > (In fact, if I wanted to, I could probably calculate how much AOLers on my > list have paid AOL for the time they spend writing and reading mail on my > list - which they wouldn't have made if I never started, and didn't > maintain, the list) . Not that I want $ for it, I just think we should get > something back. This is one of my biggest annoyances. AOL and CI$ collecting money on my stuff is grating. I work on two internet guides and a newsletter. The problem is I can't come up with enough of a distinction between AOL and places like The Well or Mindvox that also have time charges and make money on my work (though a whole lot less) to come up with a cogent policy. Also I don't necessarily want to cut out AOL and Prodigy USERS. I've written it off and added it to the long list of life's little frustrations... *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* * John M. Higgins * Read the Cable Regulation Digest * * Mutichannel News * FINGER - higgins@dorsai.dorsai.org * * higgins@dorsai.dorsai.org * E-MAIL - To: listerv@netcom.com * * v)212-887-8390/f)212-887-8384 * Body: Subscribe cablereg-l * *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 15:41:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA25229 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:25:15 -0800 Received: from nak.berkeley.edu (nak.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.136.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA25224 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:25:13 -0800 Received: from ella.mills.edu by nak.berkeley.edu (8.6.8.1/1.40) id PAA10188; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:23:17 -0800 Received: by ella.mills.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for @MAILHOST.BERKELEY.EDU:List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM id AA28838; Sat, 18 Feb 95 15:23:55 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 15:23:55 -0800 From: cyrene@ella.mills.edu (Cyrene Chew) Message-Id: <9502182323.AA28838@ella.mills.edu> To: List-Managers-Digest@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Subscription. BBC = baby c *chuckle* From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 18:11:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA26625 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 17:59:09 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA26615 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 17:59:04 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 19:57:08 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 18 Feb 95 19:10:31 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Postmaster Mail Receipt Notification From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 19:08:19 CST In-Reply-To: <9502181705.AA20735@dr-babe.atg.aol.com> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 820 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just got this message back from the replybot at aol. Since others here have experienced problems and have not received replies back, I thought it might be useful to the list members to see the last paragraph of their reply msg: America Online Postmaster Team writes: > > Thank you for your time and assistance. This automated response will > only be sent to you once per month per account from which you write. > > --The America Online Postmaster Team So, all you're ever going to get back is one message per month, unless a human being at aol decides you're worth replying to. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 18 18:12:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA26624 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 17:59:08 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA26614 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 17:59:03 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 19:57:06 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 18 Feb 95 19:07:39 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re:AOL From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Feb 95 18:50:47 CST In-Reply-To: <9502181550.AA21092@hamp.hampshire.edu> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2321 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!hamp.hampshire.edu!mpmNS (Michelle Murrain) writes: > Also, AOLs interface is so glossy, and nice, that it is never clear where > AOL ends and the internet begins. So this encourages AOL users to treat the > net like they treat AOL. This is yet another problem I have with the aol.com domain. I've had several aol users get downright abusive when they don't get instant gratification on whatever request it is they're making. As I mentioned earlier, I had a woman threaten me with legal action because I wasn't moving fast enough. When I had a similar problem with a university student, I forwarded the rude message to the sysadmin of the school. I got back an apology from the sysadmin, along with assurances that the person would be "talked to." Of course, the typical university has more experience with the sort of retaliatory strikes that such an incident can cause, such as mail- and ftp-bombing. The last thing they need is to hear from the membership at-large of a mailing list about the actions of one of their students. It appears that AOL is not so interested in these complaints, as they go to some bit bucket or another. > > We are going to have to eventually deal in some way with this clash of > cultures. Although I don't expect the majority of AOL or Prodigy users to > use the internet with the same kind of abandon college students do, and > luckily the front edges of the net change so fast that it takes time for > AOL and Prodigy to catch up, and users who really want to surf go to other > providers, there still is the potential for some serious conflict. > Agreed. The serious net-user will quickly outgrow the commercial services, particularly if they can find a full-service 'net provider for <$50/month locally. If CompuServe or Prodigy ever decide to challenge AOL in terms of price, AOL could be in for serious trouble. I've had nothing but good experiences in dealing with CIS sysadmins on technical problems, and have had absolutely no problems with users. They have the advantage of being in the position of learning from AOL's mistakes. Cheers, Ed. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 19 12:10:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA06398 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 11:41:39 -0800 Received: from research.att.com (research.att.com [192.20.225.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA06393 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 11:41:36 -0800 Received: by research.att.com; Sun Feb 19 14:36 EST 1995 Received: from bandido.info.att.com by big.info.att.com; id AA27928; Sun, 19 Feb 95 14:36:08 EST Posted-Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 14:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by bandido.info.att.com (4.1/4.7) id AA17106; Sun, 19 Feb 95 14:36:06 EST From: tal@big.att.com (Tom Limoncelli) Message-Id: <9502191936.AA17106@bandido.info.att.com> Subject: Re: our friends at cyber.sell.com To: Mark.R.Horton@att.com Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 14:36:05 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, lstown-l%searn.BITNET@uunet.uu.net, moderators@uunet.uu.net In-Reply-To: <9502100926.ZM1551@stargate> from "Mark.R.Horton@att.com" at Feb 10, 95 09:26:02 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 752 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If Usenet were to become the private property of some entity, that entity > would have legal recourse against unauthorized appropriation of its property. > One way to accomplish this would be to form an organization, "Usenet Inc" > or "The Usenet Society" or something (or align under some existing org > such as Usenix or The Internet Society) and solicit people to join the I don't disagree or agree with what you are saying, but there is already "The Usenet Community Trust", which was created so that some newsgroup (I'm 90% sure it is rec.food.recipes) could copyright its posts. I think a trust would be a better model than a society or other legal establishments, but the general idea has merit. I'm also not an international lawyer. --tal From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 19 19:41:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA11029 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 19:23:23 -0800 Received: from unicorn.swi.com.sg (mathias@unicorn.swi.com.sg [202.0.71.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA11024 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 19:23:16 -0800 Received: (from mathias@localhost) by unicorn.swi.com.sg (8.6.9/8.6.6) id LAA08083 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:16:58 +0800 Message-Id: <199502200316.LAA08083@unicorn.swi.com.sg> Subject: FAQ request (or: how to handle return-receipt) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:16:57 +0800 (SST) From: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg (Mathias Koerber) Reply-To: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg Organization: SW International Systems Pte Ltd Disclaimer: My company pays me to work, not speak for them. So there ! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 665 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I'm new to this list. Is there a FAQ about mailing list administration in general? I'd like to know what the latest word is on handling return-receipt headers in messages from subscribers to the list... regards mathias -- Mathias Koerber Tel: +65 / 7780066 x 29 SW International Systems Pte Ltd Fax: +65 / 7779401 14 Science Park Drive #04-01 email: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg The Maxwell, Singapore Science Park S'pore 0511 MK * Eifersucht ist eine Leidenschaft, die mit Eifer sucht, was Leiden schafft * From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 19 20:41:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA12715 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 20:32:11 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id UAA12710 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 20:32:08 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id XAA07451; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 23:26:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199502200426.XAA07451@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (list-managers), moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: FAQ request (or: how to handle return-receipt) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:16:57 +0800." <199502200316.LAA08083@unicorn.swi.com.sg> Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 23:26:15 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'd like to know what the latest word is on handling return-receipt headers > in messages from subscribers to the list... Delete them. (If you really want to, issue a response to the sender from the list expander, but don't leave them in the messages you send to the list. Especially if the list is gatewayed to a newsgroup!) The IETF NOTARY working group is developing a standard for both delivery reports and an SMTP extension to request delivery reports. This avoids the problems inherent in the return-receipt-to header. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 06:11:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA23461 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 06:01:43 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA23456 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 06:01:39 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA16315; Mon, 20 Feb 95 08:46:14 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14115; Mon, 20 Feb 95 08:51:21 EST Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 08:51:21 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502201351.AA14115@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> This confuses and bothers me for several reasons. For one, *I* am (a) >> liaison, at least the primary one, and have been for over a year. > >That's your problem, not mine. I could care less what the reasons are that you >or someone in the AOL organization didn't feel it necessary to reply to my >messages. > >You say you're the person in the liaison role, yet you also say that complaints >about users go someplace else. Which is it? Hold on; let's back off for just a second. Are you suggesting that one person should personally view every single piece of administrative email coming into AOL from the outside world? Let's be realistic; I read over 2000 wpm and type over 100 wpm, and I *still* wouldn't be able to handle that load on top of my normal duties. Remember, folks, that almost *every* person who handles root/postmaster email has other things to do as well. Is there anyone among us who can honestly say that other responsibilities have *never* preempted that list-owner mailbox for days at a time? >My only impression of your service as liaison is that you didn't react until >one of your customers suggested you react. For the record, I will state that I have received a prompt, courteous reply from AOL staff (including David) to *every* complaint of comment I have sent since David took over as liason. (In this environment, I define 'prompt' as 48 hours) Yes, there were some communication lapses prior to his watch, but that is, after all, the past. >It's more than understandably irritating. If there are more folks out there >who are running into the same problems as I am, more and more of the Internet >is going to become closed off to AOL users. That's going to end up one day as >a story in the Wall Street Journal if you folks don't take some sort of >pro-active attitude to work on the problem. I've already seen improvement. They're dealing with spammers, abusers and Nasty Evil Users right and left; I would understand if one of my complaints fell through the cracks. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 08:11:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id HAA25913 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 07:49:31 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA25903 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 07:49:26 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 09:47:32 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 20 Feb 95 09:15:35 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: AOL problems From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 09:06:08 CST In-Reply-To: <9502201351.AA14115@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3762 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!engr.uky.edu!morgan (Wes Morgan) writes: > >That's your problem, not mine. I could care less what the reasons are that > >or someone in the AOL organization didn't feel it necessary to reply to my > >messages. > > > >You say you're the person in the liaison role, yet you also say that complai > >about users go someplace else. Which is it? > > Hold on; let's back off for just a second. Are you suggesting that one > person should personally view every single piece of administrative email > coming into AOL from the outside world? Let's be realistic; I read over > 2000 wpm and type over 100 wpm, and I *still* wouldn't be able to handle > that load on top of my normal duties. I'm not suggesting that a single person should handle administrative email, this gentleman from AOL did. He tried to dismiss my gripes with the system by saying that he had never seen my e-mail cross his console. Yes, indeed, let's be realistic: the situation here is that AOL is unresponsive, and ducking the issue by playing the "it must be someone else's job" game doesn't cut it. > > Remember, folks, that almost *every* person who handles root/postmaster > email has other things to do as well. Is there anyone among us who can > honestly say that other responsibilities have *never* preempted that > list-owner mailbox for days at a time? > And, if it persists, many list-owners and system administrators would bar that sight from a list until the site became responsive. IMO, that's where AOL is headed if their poor attitude continues. This gentleman from AOL who is on this list may be quite a competent person, but if he's forwarding e-mail concerning users to someone else and that e-mail doesn't get answered, then AOL is still unresponsive. > >My only impression of your service as liaison is that you didn't react until > >one of your customers suggested you react. > > For the record, I will state that I have received a prompt, courteous reply > from AOL staff (including David) to *every* complaint of comment I have sent > since David took over as liason. (In this environment, I define 'prompt' as > 48 hours) Yes, there were some communication lapses prior to his watch, but > that is, after all, the past. No, it's not the past. It's the present. Not to mention the 80+ bounce messages I got yesterday (about evenly divided between three "thirty-day wonders" and two full mailbox users). That's the reality of allowing aol.com users to sign on my lists. > > >It's more than understandably irritating. If there are more folks out there > >who are running into the same problems as I am, more and more of the Interne > >is going to become closed off to AOL users. That's going to end up one day > >a story in the Wall Street Journal if you folks don't take some sort of > >pro-active attitude to work on the problem. > > I've already seen improvement. They're dealing with spammers, abusers and > Nasty Evil Users right and left; I would understand if one of my complaints > fell through the cracks. > How are they dealing with these? I received a junk mail message about a diet program or some such from an AOL user the other that was intended for my mailing list. My address (the user wasn't very bright) was on the same line as people like majordomo@netcom.com. I sent a reply back to the user and Cc:'d the postmaster address. Haven't heard back a word from either (not that I really expect to hear from the user, of course). AOL is a for-profit business that needs to clean up its public relations act. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 10:41:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA29336 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:32:13 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA29331 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 10:32:09 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA18417; Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:22:41 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20465; Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:27:49 EST Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 13:27:49 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502201827.AA20465@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Yes, indeed, let's >be realistic: the situation here is that AOL is unresponsive, and ducking the >issue by playing the "it must be someone else's job" game doesn't cut it. I'm not arguing that AOL is lickety-split in answering queries. Since neither of us knows the division of responsibilities at AOL, it seemed quite likely that different problems are routed to different people. Let's address that issue without flaming the one person from AOL who has taken the time to join online forums and listen to (and respond to) our feedback. Perhaps David can give us a bit more information on the process AOL uses. I know that, in at least one case, complaints are referred to the Terms of Service folks - not David. Perhaps a 'quick response' bug should be put in their ear. >This gentleman from AOL who is on this list may be quite a competent person, >but if he's forwarding e-mail concerning users to someone else and that e-mail >doesn't get answered, then AOL is still unresponsive. Agreed, but let's ascertain the cause without tossing all of AOL into the dungheap. >That's the reality of allowing aol.com users to sign on my lists. I don't have many aol.com subscribers, but I've not had much problem with bounce messages; perhaps I've been lucky in that respect. >> I've already seen improvement. They're dealing with spammers, abusers and >> Nasty Evil Users right and left; I would understand if one of my complaints >> fell through the cracks. > >How are they dealing with these? I received a junk mail message about a diet >program or some such from an AOL user the other that was intended for my >mailing list. Hmm...I just saw AOL's announcement, in several Usenet groups, that (roughly) a dozen users were nuked for email/Usenet abuse. In that announcement, they apologized for being unable to reach every complainant. If memory serves, it was this diet thing...it sounds as if you just didn't get the word. (Interes- tingly enough, AOL *immediately* started taking a PR beating for nuking the abusers...) Keep in mind that they received, in all likelihood, hundreds of complaints about that email/Usenet spam. I'd like to get a personal reply to every- thing I send them, but I see the reality of email floods as well...8) >AOL is a for-profit business that needs to clean up its public relations act. I agree; however, I also see great improvement from their original positions and actions. This sort of thing doesn't just happen overnight. They could just as easily tell us to go find a corner; I, for one, am glad that they've begun participating in managerial forums like this... --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 11:41:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA01623 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:30:29 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA01618 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:30:25 -0800 Received: from postmodern.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQydyb16802; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 14:28:27 -0500 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/GCA-Makitso-941228-mcb1) id AA04087; Mon, 20 Feb 95 11:21:37 PST Message-Id: <9502201921.AA04087@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:21:36 -0800 In-Reply-To: <9502201827.AA20465@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL content-length: 2665 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been hesitant to wade into this, since most of the key points have already been made (and I have had remarkably little trouble with AOL members on any of my lists), but there are some things that I'd like to suggest for AOL (David, I'm sure you're listening :_0)) and other providers that maintain an in-house list database. First, I don't really have an opinion of "default included" vs. "default omitted" for lists. "Default omitted" (only list a list if the list manager OK's it) is probably more desirable, *but*, realistically, considering how many Internet resource-list books there are out there, it's not like those lists won't be known to members, who will create an admin burden in asking about them. So we are left with "default included." In this case, I think it is absolutely mandatory that the provider communicate with the list manager on a regular basis (twice a year?) with at least the following information (paraphrased): 1. Hello, this is [NAME/ADDR] at [SERVICE] and we maintain a database of Internet mailing lists for our members. [Comment: list managers change; it's best to reintroduce yourself and state the purpose each time.] 2. Would you like us to retain the listing for your list [LISTNAME]? 3. We have the following information for [LISTNAME]. Please correct it if necessary: [INFO]. 4. You can get a copy of the list database (and/or your specific entries) on the Internet by doing the following: (WWW, gopher, FTP, e-mail server, etc.) [Comment: No, I -- speaking personally here -- don't want an account on your service to get access to this information; I want it via the Internet, where *I* work and spend my time.] 5. If you have problems with [SERVICE] members, or need to contact us regarding your list entry, send e-mail to [NAME/ADDR] or call [PHONE]. [Comment: A *real* person or office; not "Customer Service" or "TOS Advisor" or that sort of thing.] Unfortunately, even though I maintain 5 relatively high-profile lists (one of which, ironically, is list-managers) and one smaller (but public) list, nobody from AOL has ever communicated with me in the way suggested above. I have no idea which of my lists, if any, are in AOL's database, or what information is about them there. Someone (not an AOL.COM address) once (a year ago?) sent me a really lame questionnaire about lists, claiming to be compiling it for an online service, but did not identify themselves as being associated with AOL until I asked, and then they were very terse and did not share any information, and I am still not sure if they were genuine or not. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 16:11:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA05884 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 15:47:41 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA05879 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 15:47:36 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:45:37 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 20 Feb 95 16:14:47 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 16:09:37 CST In-Reply-To: <9502201827.AA20465@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3082 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!engr.uky.edu!morgan (Wes Morgan) writes: > I'm not arguing that AOL is lickety-split in answering queries. > Since neither of us knows the division of responsibilities at > AOL, it seemed quite likely that different problems are routed > to different people. Let's address that issue without flaming > the one person from AOL who has taken the time to join online > forums and listen to (and respond to) our feedback. Again, I don't really care what the division of responsibilities is within the organization. When I send a complaint about a user to just about any other site (including Compuserve, a competing pay service), someone has the courtesy to give me a reply. AOL doesn't. I don't consider stating the truth as flaming the AOL person on the list. If he doesn't have a clue as to what happens to mail when it goes to the AOL "Terms and Services" people, that's fine; it still doesn't alter the problem. > Agreed, but let's ascertain the cause without tossing all of AOL > into the dungheap. Had I done that, I wouldn't be discussing them here. They'd be in my reject file. > > >That's the reality of allowing aol.com users to sign on my lists. > > I don't have many aol.com subscribers, but I've not had much problem with > bounce messages; perhaps I've been lucky in that respect. > You're fortunate. > Hmm...I just saw AOL's announcement, in several Usenet groups, that (roughly) > a dozen users were nuked for email/Usenet abuse. In that announcement, they > apologized for being unable to reach every complainant. If memory serves, it > was this diet thing...it sounds as if you just didn't get the word. (Interes > tingly enough, AOL *immediately* started taking a PR beating for nuking the > abusers...) > > Keep in mind that they received, in all likelihood, hundreds of complaints > about that email/Usenet spam. I'd like to get a personal reply to every- > thing I send them, but I see the reality of email floods as well...8) If that was the case, it seems logical that AOL would post such an apology to a mailing list like this one. Given the multitude of problems members of this list have had, I'd say it would have been a good PR move. The only thing I've heard from AOL on this list is how they haven't seen my e-mail complaints. > > >AOL is a for-profit business that needs to clean up its public relations act > > I agree; however, I also see great improvement from their original positions > and actions. This sort of thing doesn't just happen overnight. They could > just as easily tell us to go find a corner; I, for one, am glad that they've > begun participating in managerial forums like this... > Agreed that participation is an improvement. Now, if participation leads to a reduction in the problems that are a reality when dealing with AOL, I'll consider that participation a success. Cheers, Ed. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 16:42:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA06778 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:14:48 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA05599 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 10:14:06 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA20549; Sun, 19 Feb 1995 13:11:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 13:11:42 -0500 Message-Id: <950219131140_26150085@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >The problem I have with AOL users is that they have a database to >consult. They use this to subscribe, but for some reason they cannot >seem to be able to use that to sign off. Perhaps AOL needs a mailing >list how-to document for them to refer to to solve problems they face >with list mail. Each database entry contains information on subscribing to the list, followed immediately by information on how to leave the list. At the top level of the Mailing Lists area is a document titled "How to Leave a List" with generic instructions on how to leave lists. >or send mail to the owner saying "Take me off *this* list". Owners >running many lists are clueless as to what *this* list is. I get this all the time, both requests to join *and* leave my lists. >Secondly, they don't read and interpret the internet mail headers. I >believe AOL tacks on the entire header list at the end of the message. >They should be told as to what the headers mean and that sometimes, the >headers do carry information such as how to get help, how to sign off >etc. This is a good idea, and something I will incorporate in my revisions to the area. >They also should be emphatically told that most lists are volunteer >owned and labor of love. List owners are not to be treated like a >commercial provider, but as hosts of the places they are visiting as >guests. Some AOL members seem to think that it is all the list owner's >fault that they are drowning in irrelevant mail. Also an excellent idea, and I will emphasize that more in the revisions >1. Ensure that the database is accurate by periodically sending out > confirmation request to the list owners as to the correctness of > information. Even once a year.. may be. We do that, currently on a six-month basis. As the ability to automate the verifications improves, I'd like to increase the frequency to once a quarter. >2. Please do send a notification to the list owner if you are adding a > new entry prior to making it active and honor the list-owner's > wishes/corrections etc. The only time we don't explicitly contact the list owner is if they announce their list on NEW-LIST, since the information Marty Hoag asks for basically covers what we include in our entries. --David From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 16:44:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA06686 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:11:53 -0800 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id HAA18593 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 07:09:19 -0800 From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA248770008; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 10:06:48 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 10:06:48 -0500 Message-Id: <950218100645_25363946@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all -- David O'Donnell writes to Stephanie da Silva: > We DO NOT tell our members to turn to you for assistance. On the >few occasions AOL members interested in writing help docs for >other members have asked about mentioning the PAML, I have >encouraged them not to because of the reception you are likely to >give anyone from AOL asking a question. If this is classified as >arrogance, then so be it: I would far rather have my members >ask questions of someone who will reply pleasantly than someone >who is as likely to flame them. I can't speak to your personal issues, but I feel compelled to point out that I (an AOL member) wrote to Stephanie regarding one of her postings in this list, and she neither flamed me nor was in any way rude, and in fact was most gracious and helpful. I hardly see any evidence that Stephanie's dissatisfaction with the way her own situation was handled has in any way spread to a generalized rudeness to all AOL members. And incidentally, to all those complaining about AOL's handling of the mailing list database -- David has also been quite prompt in editing my list description where needed. I agree that in order to be useful, a directory would have to default to listing everything, but perhaps some sort of notification could be sent to the list owner so that they could check the listing for accuracy? Edward Branley writes: >I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject >subscriptions from users in the domain aol.com. Reject all AOL subscribers? This seems extreme, at the very least, and snobbish, at the worst. Perhaps it's just the circles I travel in, but I have found very little of the cluelessness so often ascribed to AOL members, ether within the system or in my own list experience -- the much greater percentage of clueless questions and misdirected mail come from my non-AOL subscribers. As AOL grows in leaps and bounds, they can't help but attract clueless people who want to jump right in without preparation, but I do believe that this is true of all providers. Many thanks to Keith Moore, Stephane da Silva and Chris Demetrio for their help with the list gateway question -- it was very much appreciated! Deb dwalheim@aol.com, dwalheim@satelnet.org From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 16:46:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA07750 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:40:35 -0800 Received: from csehp3.mdc.com (CSEHP3.MDC.COM [130.38.25.143]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id QAA07745 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 16:40:31 -0800 Message-Id: <199502210040.QAA07745@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by csehp3.mdc.com (1.37.109.7/16.2) id AA19860; Mon, 20 Feb 95 18:34:48 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 18:34:48 -0600 From: "James A. Squire" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes, >Hmm...I just saw AOL's announcement, in several Usenet groups, that (roughly) >a dozen users were nuked for email/Usenet abuse. In that announcement, they >apologized for being unable to reach every complainant. If memory serves, it >was this diet thing...it sounds as if you just didn't get the word. (Interes- >tingly enough, AOL *immediately* started taking a PR beating for nuking the >abusers...) >Keep in mind that they received, in all likelihood, hundreds of complaints >about that email/Usenet spam. I'd like to get a personal reply to every- >thing I send them, but I see the reality of email floods as well...8) They were also quick to hunt down the perpetrators of the "Good Times" hoax late last year and may have suffered unfair press over the false claim that one of their own users could have started up a real virus just through email. Amazing how many people actually believed that ;-) >>AOL is a for-profit business that needs to clean up its public relations act. >I agree; however, I also see great improvement from their original positions >and actions. This sort of thing doesn't just happen overnight. They could >just as easily tell us to go find a corner; I, for one, am glad that they've >begun participating in managerial forums like this... AOL, along with other commercial providers, is also getting involved in the Internet service provider business. Those of you who worship the notion that the Internet is an anarchy are in for a big surprise 5-10 years from now. The commercial greed aspect *IS* a fact of life. Complaining about it is not going to make a bit of difference. The Internet is moving in that direction. Everyone who provides a free service has to deal with the fact that some are going to use it and not give anything in return. They either decide that they can live with that, or else they realize that they aren't really as interested in providing a free service as they thought they were so they withdraw. I understand the sentiment that it would be nice if Internet users and commercial service providers gave back something for what they are getting, but it's a pipe dream at least as far as the latter are concerned. And not all users contribute in addition to leaching. But if reciprocity is required from Internet users, then that requirement effectively changes the Internet from an open community to a closed community. The commercial service providers like AOL would be irrelevant to such a picture. James Squire MDA Center for Software Engineering ja_squire@csehp3.mdc.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 17:41:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA09499 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:18:37 -0800 Received: from Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (kinnaman@Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu [198.213.2.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA09487 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:18:32 -0800 Received: (from kinnaman@localhost) by Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA11366; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:16:38 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:16:37 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Kinnaman To: List Managers Subject: Ethical situation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List Managers, I have a situation I want to ask about. I subscribed to a majordomo list that intends to be profit-making, using a digest option. The signal to noise ration went through the floor last week and over the weekend, so I unsubscribed on Sunday. Majordomo replied within minutes that the unsubscribe was successful. But I just got a new digest (still abysmally low signal to noise), and I'm wondering if the list manager might have re-subscribed me, without my permission. I have now sent another unsubscribe message, and majordomo again replied immediately that it was successful. If I was "re-subscribed" without consultation, is this ethical? Are there other possible explanations for this occurrence? Is it possible to set majordomo so it responds like it did the unsubscribe, but in fact it does not do the unsubscribe? I can filter the incoming messages, or even return them to sender, but I'm still concerned about the implications of this *kind* of mailing list. Any comments? Pax, Dave Absolute Power Dave Kinnaman 512/463-9321 Corrupts Absolutely From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 18:41:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id SAA12146 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:29:15 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id SAA12141 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:29:12 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA09398; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 21:26:50 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 21:26:50 -0500 Message-Id: <950220212508_27472031@aol.com> To: DWalheim@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Debbie Walheim writes: >I agree that in order to be useful, a directory >would have to default to listing everything, but perhaps some sort of >notification could be sent to the list owner so that they could check the >listing for accuracy? This has been brought up before. We currently attempt to re-verify lists twice a year, and hopefully will be able to do so more frequently in the future. When/if I am able to get a mirror of our database on AOL's web server, I'm going to have a form-page set up to provide list owners another route for verifications, additions or deletions. I'm hoping the form will prove to be a convenience. --David O'Donnell AOL Postmaster/USENET Admin, etc. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 19:41:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA12657 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:30:53 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id TAA12652 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:30:49 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA163627305; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:28:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:28:25 -0500 Message-Id: <950220222824_27536992@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael Berch writes: >In this case, I think it is absolutely mandatory that the provider >communicate with the list manager on a regular basis (twice a year?) >with at least the following information (paraphrased): [ excellent suggestions clipped ] Thanks very much for the suggestions, and I'll take them into consideration fo r revising our biennial verification process. >Unfortunately, even though I maintain 5 relatively high-profile lists >(one of which, ironically, is list-managers) and one smaller (but >public) list, nobody from AOL has ever communicated with me in the >way suggested above. I have no idea which of my lists, if any, are >in AOL's database, or what information is about them there. If you haven't heard from us by now, you're not in the database. I can't find any matches on your name in the database or on any portion of your e-mail address. If you'd like to be listed, please let me know in private mail and I'll be happy to work with you. (Remember, unless your list has been noted on NEW-LIST in the past year or one of our members has brought it to our attention and you've been contacted, we don't have it.) --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 20 19:43:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id TAA12614 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:24:04 -0800 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id TAA12609 for ; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:24:01 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA29913; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:21:40 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:21:40 -0500 Message-Id: <950220222139_27530467@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: America Online Procedures (was Re: AOL) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan writes: >Perhaps David can give us a bit more information on the process >AOL uses. I know that, in at least one case, complaints are >referred to the Terms of Service folks - not David. Perhaps >a 'quick response' bug should be put in their ear. Basically, all complaints about member abuses of Internet and USENET privileges (should be) sent to postmaster@aol.com [usenet@aol.com is aliased to the same address]. My assistant and I process these complaints and other mail. Complaints are forwarded to AOL Terms of Service for actual disciplinary action against members and are acknowledged, if necessary, by postmaster. Report summaries are also posted to alt.current-events.net-abuse and news.admin.misc, but these summaries deal with USENET abuse. I do not generally acknowledge abuse actions to those lists which have been hit unless I know that the list owner and participants would appreciate it -- I know in my case, the extra bandwidth would just exacerbate the situation, and I assume that action will be taken (unless the abuse continues). Of the other mail which arrives in my boxes, mail dealing with mailing list issues is either answered directly by me or is forwarded to ListMaster (where I answer it on my next sweep through that account, which presently is every other day except weekends). Mail of interest to members of this list is essentially *not* forwarded to another party but is dealt with by me or sent to TOS (Terms of Service) for actual action. I personally consider mailing list abuse to be more serious than USENET abuse simply because you cannot issue cancels for e-mail, so there is no way I can 'clean up after' members wh o have abused their privileges either through ignorance or deliberate action. I'd be happy to go into greater detail about the process in private mail, if anyone cares to ask. --David O'Donnell AOL Postmaster, USENET Admin (etc) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 09:27:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01493 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:12:03 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA01488 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:12:00 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA163177941; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:45:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:45:41 -0500 Message-Id: <950221094535_27846261@aol.com> To: ggf@jsoft.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary Frederick asks: >Will the list be available via ftp etc? It will be available via ftp first, my goal is to have it online within a month barring complications. If you have suggestions on other ways to get it, please let me know. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 09:29:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01629 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:20:05 -0800 Received: from csehp3.mdc.com (CSEHP3.MDC.COM [130.38.25.143]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA01624 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:20:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199502211720.JAA01624@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by csehp3.mdc.com (1.37.109.7/16.2) id AA21822; Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:34:46 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:34:46 -0600 From: "James A. Squire" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dwalheim@aol.com writes: >Edward Branley writes: >>I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject >>subscriptions from users in the domain aol.com. >Reject all AOL subscribers? This seems extreme, at the very least, and >snobbish, at the worst. Perhaps it's just the circles I travel in, but I >have found very little of the cluelessness so often ascribed to AOL members, >ether within the system or in my own list experience -- the much greater >percentage of clueless questions and misdirected mail come from my non-AOL >subscribers. As AOL grows in leaps and bounds, they can't help but attract >clueless people who want to jump right in without preparation, but I do >believe that this is true of all providers. Moreover, I subscribed to a list from my AOL account up until a few days ago and I lost track of the NON-commercial service provider users who ALSO didn't have a clue how to subscribe or unsubscribe or get help or get files from the list server. I know because I would get at least one message every day from the list with an unsubscribe command or something in it. And these were from direct Internet users. Perhaps AOL users are being unfairly singled out here. James Squire MDA Center for Software Engineering ja_squire@csehp3.mdc.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 09:32:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id IAA00163 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:55:13 -0800 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (root@netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id IAA00134 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:55:06 -0800 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.9/Netcom) id FAA21274; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 05:45:13 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 05:47:39 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: net.licenses for AOLers? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was down at the DMV recently, and this came to mind as I renewed my license: If AOL - and let me not imply that other commercial services are excluded here - expects to make it easy for members to "take advantage" of the Net without regard to, or sensitivity to, how net.citizens might react to that, then perhaps part of the answer is for AOL et alia to require a sort of "licensing" procedure that will result in a higher-than-nothing level of education about the net - higher than is provided for by the option of reading a few text files. When AOL members enter the "Internet Center" area on AOL, they can (but are not required to) read files like the one appended below to get oriented. It's all very voluntary, and it's apparently not completely effective, according to what I'm experiencing and reading on this list. I'm proposing that AOL should not just offer the option of reading this file, but that they should _require_ members to both read it and also to send in a response form to the AOL sysops specifying that they have read and understood the material and promise to abide by universally recognized principles of netiquette (AOL's take on proper netiquette would be pretty entertaining). AOL requires that its own members complete a similar agreement to their own Terms Of Service, so why not something for the rest of the net? Even a multiple choice questionnaire wouldn't be going to far: after all, when I first got my domain and Internet connection, I had to fill out _lots_ of forms, and I had to do a lot of reading of material to even get those forms. IMHO, we'd not be asking too much for AOL members to show some evidence that they intend to treat the Net seriously - not just as a new plaything. When you buy your kids a pet, you expect them to be responsible, right? When you drive a car, you're expected to take a simple test, right? dave __________________________________________________________ "When thou enter a city abide by its customs." -The Talmud For those of you who haven't got AOL accounts but are interested: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Welcome to America Online's Internet Center! The Internet Center is designed to give you fast and easy access to the Internet through America Online. In the past year, popular newspapers, magazines, and televisions shows have fueled national excitement and expectations about the vast "information superhighway" -- known as the Internet -- that connects computer owners across the globe to information, resources, and other people. You've probably wondered how you can "get connected." As an America Online member, you are already a part of this exciting global connection. The Internet Center on America Online is designed to help you understand what is available on the Internet, and to show you how to take advantage of its resources. Today, America Online's Internet Center is your headquarters for information about the Internet, and for access to two of the Internet's most popular features -- electronic mail and "mailing lists." Over the coming months, America Online will expand the Internet Center to provide you access to even more features -- all using the easy America Online look and feel that you already know. To find out more about what's available in The Internet Center, select ABOUT THE INTERNET CENTER from the previous menu. WHAT IS THE INTERNET? The Internet is the world's largest computer network. Although it was founded over 20 years ago as a US military research network, and was expanded to connect mostly academic institutions, an estimated 10-20 million people from all over the world now use the Internet. All kinds of people -- businesspeople, researchers, educators, consumers, activists, students, military personnel -- use the Internet to exchange electronic mail, pursue special interests, search databases, and do business. The notion of a global information highway is an exciting one; however, there are some barriers that stand in the way of making the Internet widely accessible for us "non-techies." The Internet is not centrally owned and operated, and it's constantly changing, so it can be hard to figure out what resources it has, and how to get to them. Since the Internet was not developed for consumer use, it can be very hard to use -- especially for the majority of us who have been "spoiled" by the simple point and click graphics of Windows and Macintosh. Furthermore, unless you are associated with an academic or research institution, it can be hard to get a connection. America Online's Internet Center is designed to overcome these obstacles. As an America Online member, you are already a "member" of the Internet. You can navigate the resources of the Internet just like you use any other part of America Online. And, your use of the Internet Center is included at no extra charge in your America Online membership fee. WHAT DOES THE INTERNET HAVE TO OFFER? The Internet offers the following basic resources: electronic mail, "mailing lists," newsgroups, databases, and file transfer. Some of these are available to you through America Online's Internet Center today. Others will follow in the coming months. ELECTRONIC MAIL: Electronic mail ("e-mail") is one of the most popular uses of America Online. It's also one of the most popular uses of the Internet. Today, you can use America Online to send electronic mail to anyone who is connected to the Internet -- whether they are an America Online member or not. If you have friends or associates who use any of the popular online networks -- Compuserve, Prodigy, MCI Mail, AT&T mail, AppleLink and many others -- you can send them mail through America Online. To find out how, click on the USING THE MAIL GATEWAY icon. It's easy, because it works just like the America Online mail system you already use. America Online handles tens of thousands of pieces of Internet mail every day, and there are no extra charges for America Online members who use this service. MAILING LISTS: Mailing Lists are electronic mail "discussion groups" that are exchanged through the Internet among groups of people who share similar interests. You can exchange in an ongoing, interactive discussion with people from all around the world using America Online electronic mail. Hundreds of these Mailing Lists cover almost every imaginable topic: technology, American literature, philosophy, cooking, chess, motorcycling, sports, environmentalism, rock music, lifestyles -- you name it! Click on the MAILING LISTS icon to find out how to find a Mailing List that appeals to your interests, and how to join in today. NEWSGROUPS: Also known as "USENET Newsgroups," these lively exchanges are the 'Net equivalent of message boards on America Online. Like Mailing Lists, there is a Newsgroup for just about any topic you can imagine (and more). This January, America Online's Internet Center will allow you to browse a list of all the Newsgroups available through the Internet, and place the ones that interest you in your own customized message board. Using this message board, you will be able to discuss your special interests with people from all over the world. DATABASES: The Internet contains hundreds of free databases of information on many topics. These libraries, or archives, of information are devoted to topics as diverse as home brewing, NASA news, recipes, Congressional contact information, and the works of Shakespeare. These databases are "indexed," meaning that they can be searched for information using key words and phrases. (If you've been following news about the Internet, you may have heard these databases referred to as "WAIS" -- pronounced "wayz" -- databases. WAIS stands for "wide area information server," and is a tool used on the Internet used for searching databases.) Since most of the databases are run by volunteers, the quality and reliability can vary from excellent to inconsistent. And figuring out how to search the databases can get complicated. America Online's Internet Center will make it easy to find and use Internet databases. In February, America Online's Internet Center will include a selection of some of the best databases available on the Internet. Each will have an easy to use "front end" just like those used on databases throughout America Online. (The encylopedia in America Online's Learning and Reference Department is a good example.) As the number of databases available on the Internet grows, we'll add to the list. And for "Internet Experts," we'll provide a way to use a tool called "GOPHER" to search all the databases out there. FILE TRANSFER: America Online's software libraries are filled with thousand of files -- graphics, music, spreadsheets and more -- that you can download, or transfer, from the America Online "host" computers to your personal computer. Scattered thoughout the Internet are many thousands of such files and programs -- Internet users use a process called "ftp" (file transfer protocol) to access them. America Online's Internet Center will bring FTP online in the coming year. Watch the Internet Center for news and details. WHAT'S AHEAD? Today, you can use America Online's Internet Center to learn more about the global Internet, and to participate in two of the Internet's most popular features -- Mail and Mailing Lists. In January and February, we'll add Newsgroups and Databases. Use the message boards in the Internet Center to discuss your Interent discoveries with other America Online members, and to let us know what you would like to see next. Welcome to the Information Superhighway! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 09:56:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02249 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:39:47 -0800 Received: from cs.umb.edu (root@cs.umb.edu [158.121.104.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA02244 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:39:44 -0800 Received: from xt.cs.umb.edu by cs.umb.edu with SMTP id AA01194 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:13:50 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211513.AA01194@cs.umb.edu> To: Dave Kinnaman Cc: List Managers Subject: Re: Ethical situation In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:16:37 CST." Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:13:55 -0500 From: "John P. Rouillard" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message , Dave Kinnaman writes: >If I was "re-subscribed" without consultation, is this ethical? No. >Are there other possible explanations for this occurrence? Is it >possible to set majordomo so it responds like it did the unsubscribe, but >in fact it does not do the unsubscribe? Well, I don't think anybody connected with majordomo would claim that it is bug free 8-). However I haven't seen any bugs like this in any recent version of majordomo (1.9x). I can't comment on older versions. The way to test is to send two unsubscribes in a row in your mail message. The second unsubscribe should fail if the first one worked right. E.G. unsubscribe foo unsubscribe foo It is unlikely that the list manager would be hanging out waiting to resubscribe you in the interval between the two unsubscribes. You may also want to do a which to see if you are subscribed multiple times under slightly different addresses. E.G. I have rouilj@terminus.cs.umb.edu and rouilj@cs.umb.edu floating around. With majordomo, these two addresses can be made to look identical so two unsubscribe messages in a row will remove both addresses from a list if they were both subscribed. -- John John Rouillard Senior Systems Administrator IDD Information Services rouilj@dstar.iddis.com Waltham, MA (617) 890-7227 x337 (617) 487-3937 (Direct) Senior Systems Consultant (SERL Project) University of Massachusetts at Boston rouilj@cs.umb.edu (preferred) Boston, MA, (617) 287-6480 =============================================================================== My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:01:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA02371 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:43:00 -0800 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id JAA02366 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:42:56 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:29:32 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL problems Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9502211129.aa22531@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Edward J. Branley wrote: >I'm not suggesting that a single person should handle administrative email, >this gentleman from AOL did. He tried to dismiss my gripes with the system by >saying that he had never seen my e-mail cross his console. Yes, indeed, let's >be realistic: the situation here is that AOL is unresponsive, and ducking the >issue by playing the "it must be someone else's job" game doesn't cut it. Interesting. You describe an entirely unique situation. It's *never* happened to me. >And, if it persists, many list-owners and system administrators would bar that >sight from a list until the site became responsive. IMO, that's where AOL is >headed if their poor attitude continues. This gentleman from AOL who is on >this list may be quite a competent person, but if he's forwarding e-mail >concerning users to someone else and that e-mail doesn't get answered, then AOL >is still unresponsive. Well, in my experience, AOL is a whole lot MORE responsive than some sites. I'd had a problem mailing to a certain .xxx domain sites an had repeatedly mailed various permutations of postmaster@ trying to find help. Finally, I looked up the tech contact at the internic and mailed him. He told me that "the last postmaster left and nobody volunteered to filled the slot since then. Knowledgeable users find my address and email me." >No, it's not the past. It's the present. Not to mention the 80+ bounce >messages I got yesterday (about evenly divided between three "thirty-day >wonders" and two full mailbox users). That's the reality of allowing aol.com >users to sign on my lists. So, what is AOL-specific about this problem? The only "problem" is really that the high number of users they have means that a given percentage of full mailboxes on the system will simply impact more users (assuming that, say, 2% of all users have full mailboxes on all systems at all times). >How are they dealing with these? I received a junk mail message about a diet >program or some such from an AOL user the other that was intended for my >mailing list. My address (the user wasn't very bright) was on the same line as >people like majordomo@netcom.com. I sent a reply back to the user and Cc:'d >the postmaster address. Haven't heard back a word from either (not that I >really expect to hear from the user, of course). AOL is a for-profit business >that needs to clean up its public relations act. Again, a unique situation. This has *never* happened to me. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:26:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA03755 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:01:39 -0800 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA03606 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:00:51 -0800 Received: from uu4.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-950108) id BAA11309; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 01:02:18 -0800 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA28955 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 95 03:55:40 -0500 Received: from spud by jsoft.com (NX5.67d/NX3.02M) id AA08066; Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:26:17 -0600 Message-Id: <9502210826.AA08066@ jsoft.com> Received: by spud (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA02674; Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:26:17 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:26:15 -0600 To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 Cc: DWalheim@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: Gary Frederick References: <950220212508_27472031@aol.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >When/if I am able to get a mirror of our database on AOL's web >server, I'm going to have a form-page set up to provide list owners another >route for verifications, additions or deletions. I'm hoping the form will >prove to be a convenience. > >--David O'Donnell > AOL Postmaster/USENET Admin, etc. Great idea! This would be a commercial provider giving something back to the net! Will the list be available via ftp etc? Gary From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:28:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA03794 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:01:45 -0800 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA03623 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:00:55 -0800 Received: from uu4.psi.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-950108) id BAA11312; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 01:02:30 -0800 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA28963 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 95 03:55:51 -0500 Received: from spud by jsoft.com (NX5.67d/NX3.02M) id AA08074; Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:38:13 -0600 Message-Id: <9502210838.AA08074@ jsoft.com> Received: by spud (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA02681; Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:38:13 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 02:38:11 -0600 To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: Mailbox full Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, sjf@jsoft.ccom Reply-To: Gary Frederick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk we currently have three mailbox full 'situations' on one of our lists. One of the three is from AOL. We get them on a regular basis. I am guessing someone gets on AOL, subscribes to some lists and then stops reading mail (because they are dropping their membership or who knows why). You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test the address before they send a mailbox full message. If it is a mailing list, don't send it. or Build a list of addresses that do not want notice that someone's mailbox is full. It should be easy to do and it will make life a little easier for some of us list managers. Gary From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:30:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA04200 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:04:18 -0800 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA04120 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:03:27 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-950108) id VAA10476; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 21:47:40 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA28102 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Mon, 20 Feb 1995 23:36:20 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA06610; 20 Feb 95 23:07:58 CST (Mon) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id XAA06607 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 23:07:57 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502210507.XAA06607@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Internet Yellow Pages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 23:07:57 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 648 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per, I was wrong, it was the McGraw Hill Internet Yellow Pages you were talking about (books with the same names can be quite confusing). Anyhow, I complained about it on a newsgroup, news.newusers.questions I think it was. Lo and behold, I received a response from one of the authors, who was sincerely concerned about why I was so distressed over the book. He was very apologetic (he followed up to my message, too) and said it'd get fixed if another edition came out :-) and that he'd take steps to try to prevent that type of mistake from happening in the future. If you want to get in touch with him, use this address: catalog@rain.org From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:33:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01906 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:29:42 -0800 Received: from clark.net (root@clark.net [168.143.0.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA01895 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:29:37 -0800 Received: from lyris.shelby.com (shelby.com [204.156.15.1]) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id IAA27310 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:51:31 -0500 Received: from juno.shelby.com (juno [204.156.15.4]) by lyris.shelby.com (8.6.9/8.6.9-WSGLtd) with SMTP id FAA06637 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 05:29:35 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211029.FAA06637@lyris.shelby.com> X-Sender: jbuckman@204.156.15.2 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 08:21:24 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: jbuckman@shelby.com (John Buckman) Subject: Re: AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 04:09 PM 2/20/95 CST, Edward J. Branley wrote: >When I send a complaint about a user to just about any other >site (including Compuserve, a competing pay service), someone has the courtesy >to give me a reply. AOL doesn't. My list was spammed recently, so I wrote AOL and asked: > What is the procedure when a AOL member decides to spam the Internet? User > "thermo999" sent a message about heat-changing merchandise to thousands of > LISTSERV lists. The next day, I received this from AOL: > If the abuse occurred on the USENET, check alt.current-events.net-abuse to > see if the individual has already been actioned (reports are posted every > 2 days or more frequently). If the user does not appear in the abuse > report, send a complete copy of the abusive e-mail or USENET article - > including headers - to postmaster@aol.com and action will be taken. So I'm a happy list-owner now. John John Buckman - jbuckman@shelby.com - (301) 718-7840 Walter Shelby Group Ltd. - Internet Software Publishers http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ - ftp://ftp.shelby.com/pub/wsg From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:36:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id JAA01903 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:29:40 -0800 Received: from clark.net (root@clark.net [168.143.0.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id JAA01889 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:29:34 -0800 Received: from lyris.shelby.com (shelby.com [204.156.15.1]) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id JAA07373 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:35:36 -0500 Received: from juno.shelby.com (juno [204.156.15.4]) by lyris.shelby.com (8.6.9/8.6.9-WSGLtd) with SMTP id GAA06871 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 06:13:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211113.GAA06871@lyris.shelby.com> X-Sender: jbuckman@204.156.15.2 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:05:29 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: jbuckman@shelby.com (John Buckman) Subject: InfoMagnet & Majordomo Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello - I'd like to introduce myself. I am John Buckman, programmer of "InfoMagnet" - a program for finding, searching and participating in mailing lists. This is commercial software, and currently only supports LISTSERV. I'd like to change this, and build support for all the popular mailing list management packages. I don't know that much about Majordomo, so please excuse me if I make some blunders. In order for InfoMagnet to support a list, it needs the following minimal information: Name of the list (eg: list-managers) Description (eg: discussion of majordomo for list-managers) List management software and version it is running (eg: majordomo x.xx) Email address of list manager (eg: majordomo@greatcircle.com) In addition, it would be wonderful to have access to the following information: Is the list open, closed, by approval, etc Does it have archives & can the archives be searched via email? How many people belong And finally, if majordomo has equivalents for the following LISTSERV commands: index, digests and nomail Hide from "review" command Don't receive files sent to the group Type of headers you receive Then that would be marvelous! (but not necessary) Finally, it would REALLY help if there were some centralized list of majordomo lists which contained this information. Please let me know what you think! I'll be glad to give free copies of InfoMagnet to anyone helps InfoMagnet and MajorDomo work together. Also - we're currently planning a list manager version of InfoMagnet, which would hopefully also work with MajorDomo lists. You can get all the InfoMagnet information you could ever want at our web site: http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ John John Buckman - jbuckman@shelby.com - (301) 718-7840 Walter Shelby Group Ltd. - Internet Software Publishers http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ - ftp://ftp.shelby.com/pub/wsg From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:38:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA04684 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:06:35 -0800 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA04502 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:05:49 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.5/SMI-4.1/Brent-950108) id UAA09996; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 20:55:11 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:54:46 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 20 Feb 95 21:51:04 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28 From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 21:40:44 CST In-Reply-To: <950218100645_25363946@aol.com> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2123 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!aol.com!DWalheim writes: > Edward Branley writes: > >I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject > >subscriptions from users in the domain aol.com. > > Reject all AOL subscribers? This seems extreme, at the very least, and > snobbish, at the worst. Perhaps it's just the circles I travel in, but I > have found very little of the cluelessness so often ascribed to AOL members, > ether within the system or in my own list experience -- the much greater > percentage of clueless questions and misdirected mail come from my non-AOL > subscribers. As AOL grows in leaps and bounds, they can't help but attract > clueless people who want to jump right in without preparation, but I do > believe that this is true of all providers. Well, had you read the rest of that message, you would have caught the part about the number of bounce messages coming through (sometimes as many as 80 in a day) that get Cc:'d to my mail host. Given the fact that my system is a uucp system, those bounces take up a great deal of transmission time. The sysadmin of my mail host doesn't appreciate the extra connect time, nor does he like to see all of those bounce messages hit his mailbox. If I have a choice between rejecting aol.com and keeping my list active, guess which is going to happen. AOL is making money by attracting those clueless people. If other services and systems on the 'net are having problems with AOL, they won't attract as many people when their system is refused access to various aspects of the net. Should I have to drop aol.com from my list, I'll suggest that the subscribers find alternatives to aol.com for internet access. If I'm a minority, AOL will tell me to go to hell and that'll about do it; if I'm not, they'd better deal with the issues. I'm glad to see that the cluelessness comes from other users on your list; unfortunately, it comes from AOL on mine. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 10:55:55 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA06397 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:34:51 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id KAA06387 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:34:24 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA27126; Tue, 21 Feb 95 13:18:30 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15532; Tue, 21 Feb 95 13:23:41 EST Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 13:23:41 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502211823.AA15532@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: net.licenses Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'm proposing that AOL should not just offer the option of reading this >file, but that they should _require_ members to both read it and also to >send in a response form to the AOL sysops specifying that they have read >and understood the material and promise to abide by universally recognized >principles of netiquette (AOL's take on proper netiquette would be pretty >entertaining). Frankly, I'd like to see *every* Usenet site do this; despite their large scale, AOL is hardly the exception to the rule. After surviving a decade of September Massacres, PSUVM, cmu.edu and all the rest, I've come to the conclusion that AOL is no worse than the collective mass of freshmen entering college each fall. Having said that, I would like to see the large providers limit the capabilities of their 'free trial' accounts; it seems that an inor- dinate amount of abuse is coming from such 'trial period' users. --Wes From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:01:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA06761 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:41:30 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA06747 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:41:26 -0800 From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA075641928; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:38:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:38:48 -0500 Message-Id: <950221133847_28031787@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #31 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Re problems with AOL subscribers and AOL postmaster response -- rex!engr.uky.edu!morgan (Wes Morgan) writes: > For the record, I will state that I have received a prompt, courteous reply > from AOL staff (including David) to *every* complaint of comment I have sent > since David took over as liason. (In this environment, I define 'prompt' as > 48 hours) Yes, there were some communication lapses prior to his watch, but > that is, after all, the past. elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) replies: >No, it's not the past. It's the present. Not to mention the 80+ >bounce messages I got yesterday (about evenly divided between >three "thirty-day wonders" and two full mailbox users). That's the >reality of allowing aol.com users to sign on my lists. I, too, have received very prompt and polite replies from David O'Donnell and any other AOL staff member I contacted. But Edward, as far as the bouncing mail is concerned, wouldn't a low-to-no bounce tolerance policy elimi nate your problem? And wouldn't that be a bit less extreme that refusing all AOL subscriptions? (Re your comment: "I'm also curious to know if anyone here has decided to reject subscriptions from users in the domain aol.com.") I find it wildly ironic that if you implemented such a policy, you would be able to subscribe to my list run from AOL (which you do), yet I wouldn't be able to subscribe to yours. I continue to experience many more problems, proportionally, from my non-AOL subscribers than the AOL members, but if *anyone's* mail bounces more than once, I remove them -- if they want to get back on the list, they'll contact me. Cheers, Deb From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:26:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08632 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:20:05 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA08624 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:20:01 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA27705; Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:13:12 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16937; Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:18:23 EST Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:18:23 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502211918.AA16937@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: InfoMagnet Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Hello - I'd like to introduce myself. I am John Buckman, programmer of >"InfoMagnet" - a program for finding, searching and participating in mailing >lists. I'm not so sure that I like that 'finding' part of your description. Are you going to be randomly probing for "majordomo@site," "listserv@site," and the like? If so, are you going to try to hit every box you can find, or just the MX sites? Is every copy of your program going to do this, or will one central site do it? Most folks don't appreciate probing of their mailer...and probing an entire domain is a *quick* way to get the attention of a security-minded admin. netfind is already burdensome - I hope that this 'InfoMagnet' doesn't add to this problem. --Wes From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:31:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA08236 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:09:48 -0800 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id LAA08145 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:08:05 -0800 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-6) id AA25044; Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:05:28 +0100 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOLMH.3) id AA05261; Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:05:00 +0100 Message-Id: <9502211905.AA05261@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:04:59 +0100 In-Reply-To: Gary Frederick's message as of 1995 Feb 21 Tue 2:38. <9502210838.AA08074@ jsoft.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailbox full Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary Frederick wrote: >You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test the address before they >send a mailbox full message. If it is a mailing list, don't send it. >or >Build a list of addresses that do not want notice that someone's mailbox is >full. It should be easy to do and it will make life a little easier for some >of us list managers. The question is, is it really a good idea to suppress bounces when the mailbox is full? The whole idea is to reduce the usage of netbandwidth. If people have a full mailbox, they're evidently not going to benefit from further messages from your mailinglist. I.e. they might as well be unsubscribed. If the problem really is transient, these bounce messages could be suppressed (if coming from a mailinglist); the problem is determining what is a transient problem and what not. -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Real programmers don't produce results, they return exit codes. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:35:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA07987 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:03:39 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA07982 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:03:30 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id NAA11820; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:57:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211857.NAA11820@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Gary Frederick cc: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, sjf@jsoft.ccom, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailbox full In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Feb 1995 02:38:11 CST." <9502210838.AA08074@ jsoft.com> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:57:18 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > we currently have three mailbox full 'situations' on one of our lists. > > One of the three is from AOL. We get them on a regular basis. I am > guessing someone gets on AOL, subscribes to some lists and then > stops reading mail (because they are dropping their membership or > who knows why). You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test > the address before they send a mailbox full message. If it is a > mailing list, don't send it. There's a crucial detail or three missing from this description. 1. Are the mailbox full messages going to the entire list or just the list maintainer? (If the latter, what's the problem? Can't you just remove the user from your list?) 2. Is your list rewriting the envelope return address (SMTP MAIL FROM) to point to the list maintainer instead of the list, as required by RFC 1123, p 65, section 5.3.6? If not, then the problem is with your list, NOT with AOL. On the other hand, if AOL is bouncing mail to the wrong address, then AOL needs to either fix its mail software to conform to Internet standards, or disconnect from the Internet. 3. Are the mailbox full messages from AOL being sent out with the envelope return address (SMTP MAIL FROM) set to "<>", as suggested by RFC 821, pp 14-15, section 3.6, and required by RFC 1123, p 63, section 5.3.3? This is intended to prevent bounced mail from looping. The point is, there are already well-established protocols to prevent undesirable behavior from bounced mail. Rather than try to invent new ways to solve this problem, we should use the ones that are standardized. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:40:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id KAA07323 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:57:38 -0800 Received: from relay1.UU.NET (relay1.UU.NET [192.48.96.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id KAA07317 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:57:32 -0800 Received: from uucp5.UU.NET by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQyebr23418; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:55:15 -0500 Received: from spsgate.UUCP by uucp5.UU.NET with UUCP/RMAIL ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:55:23 -0500 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA01386 for greatcircle.com!list-managers; Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:50:00 MST Received: from motsps by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA22620; Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:49:58 MST Received: from oakhill.sps.mot.com by motsps (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.1) id AA00835 for greatcircle.com!list-managers@uunet.uucp; Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:49:57 MST Received: from miaow.sps.mot.com by oakhill.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3) id AA00125; Tue, 21 Feb 95 12:50:07 CST Received: by miaow.sps.mot.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16376; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:50:15 -0600 From: dwolfe@risc.sps.mot.com (David Wolfe) Message-Id: <9502211850.AA16376@miaow.sps.mot.com> Subject: Re: Mailbox full To: uunet!greatcircle.com!list-managers@uunet.uu.net Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:50:15 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <9502210838.AA08074@.jsoft.com> from "Gary Frederick" at Feb 21, 95 02:38:11 am Reply-To: david_wolfe@risc.sps.mot.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 895 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [ Gary Frederick writes: ] > You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test the address before > they send a mailbox full message. If it is a mailing list, don't send > it. > > or > > Build a list of addresses that do not want notice that someone's > mailbox is full. It should be easy to do and it will make life a > little easier for some of us list managers. Maybe if AOL just "looked" at the headers, like "Precedence: bulk", and followed the conventions associated with that??? Granted, I've only been on this list a very short time, but I'm ready to drop it because all I see discussed here is AOL. Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a d**n about AOL. Are matters of substance that actually pertain to Majordomo list management ever discussed here? -- Dave Wolfe *Not a spokesman for Motorola* (512) 891-3246 Motorola MMTG 6501 Wm. Cannon Dr. W. OE112 Austin TX 78735-8598 From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 11:55:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id LAA10363 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:54:26 -0800 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.130.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id LAA10351 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:54:21 -0800 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.9/8.6.5) id LAA24196; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:52:06 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Gary Frederick cc: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, sjf@jsoft.ccom Subject: Re: Mailbox full In-Reply-To: <9502210838.AA08074@ jsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Gary Frederick wrote: > You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test the address before they > send a mailbox full message. If it is a mailing list, don't send it. Eh, bad heuristic. Instead, I'd prefer if they didn't send a mailbox full message when one or both of these conditions exist: 1) The recipient isn't in the To: header (the easiest test for a system alias/mailing list) 2) In the mail headers is a Precedence: bulk AOL should still notify the list owner, though, if the mailbox no longer exists or the mailbox is full for "n" number of days, that number being up to AOL. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 12:25:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA10992 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:09:12 -0800 Received: from csehp3.mdc.com (CSEHP3.MDC.COM [130.38.25.143]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id MAA10965 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:09:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199502212009.MAA10965@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by csehp3.mdc.com (1.37.109.7/16.2) id AA23848; Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:02:49 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 14:02:49 -0600 From: "James A. Squire" To: david_wolfe@risc.sps.mot.com Subject: Re: Mailbox full Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Wolfe writes: >Granted, I've only been on this list a very short time, but I'm ready >to drop it because all I see discussed here is AOL. Frankly, Scarlett, >I don't give a d**n about AOL. Are matters of substance that actually >pertain to Majordomo list management ever discussed here? I thought that was what the "Majordomo"(@GreatCircle.COM) mailing list was for. This is "List-Managers". James Squire MDA Center for Software Engineering ja_squire@csehp3.mdc.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 12:31:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id MAA11446 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:16:57 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id MAA11436 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:16:49 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA11924; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:08:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199502212008.PAA11924@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: david_wolfe@risc.sps.mot.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailbox full In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Feb 1995 12:50:15 CST." <9502211850.AA16376@miaow.sps.mot.com> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:08:18 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Maybe if AOL just "looked" at the headers, like "Precedence: bulk", and > followed the conventions associated with that??? Precedence should NOT be relied on to solve this problem. There are so many mutually conflicting uses of the Precedence header that the best thing to do is to ignore it. > Granted, I've only been on this list a very short time, but I'm ready > to drop it because all I see discussed here is AOL. Frankly, Scarlett, > I don't give a d**n about AOL. Are matters of substance that actually > pertain to Majordomo list management ever discussed here? It's true that some people have pet peeves about AOL, and I'd just as soon not see the stuff that is pure AOL-bashing. But most of the issues aren't specific to AOL. I personally don't have too many problems with AOL on my lists, but I've seen most of the "AOL" problems occur with other sites. Also, if we can get AOL to fix some of these problems, there's some hope that other large sites will follow suit. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 13:25:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA14294 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:22:07 -0800 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA14284 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:22:02 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA249141565; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:19:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:19:25 -0500 Message-Id: <950221161924_28182832@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: net.licenses Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan writes: > Having said that, I would like to see the large providers limit the > capabilities of their 'free trial' accounts; it seems that an inor- > dinate amount of abuse is coming from such 'trial period' users. Anecdotally, I tracked USENET abuses from AOL for about a week, and discovered that over 70% of the abusers were long-term users (average length of time with AOL was 18 months). The numerically worst users were trial users, but they were also clearly deliberate cases of abuse and I don't believe making a deliberate abuser use up their 10 hours or 30 days will stop someone who *has* to (e.g.) sell an anatomically-correct chocolate heart. I appreciate the suggestions which have been made regarding ways to help educate members better, and as far as I can, I will be pushing for their implementation here. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 13:56:59 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id NAA14625 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:27:35 -0800 Received: from Kay-Abernathy.tenet.edu (kinnaman@Kay-Abernathy.tenet.edu [198.213.2.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id NAA14619 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:27:30 -0800 Received: (from kinnaman@localhost) by Kay-Abernathy.tenet.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA16884; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:25:16 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:25:15 -0600 (CST) From: Dave Kinnaman To: Wes Morgan cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: InfoMagnet In-Reply-To: <9502211918.AA16937@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes, > find, or just the MX sites? Is every copy of your program going to > do this, or will one central site do it? False alarm. InfoMagnet has a central database. Individual users can update (automatically FTP) from the central site at any time. No mailbox probing that I know of....but I am just an InfoMagnet user. Pax, Dave Dave Kinnaman 512/463-9321 #this too shall pass# From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 14:26:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA15866 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:00:47 -0800 Received: from oistrakh.msen.com (root@oistrakh.msen.com [148.59.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA15849 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:00:22 -0800 Received: from heifetz.msen.com (heifetz.msen.com [148.59.1.1]) by oistrakh.msen.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA21286 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:57:53 -0500 Received: from hamjudo.UUCP by heifetz.msen.com with UUCP (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rh235-000Zc1C; Tue, 21 Feb 95 16:23 EST Received: by hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0rh1rF-0000ISC; Tue, 21 Feb 95 16:10 EST Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:10:55 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Haas To: Keith Moore cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailbox full In-Reply-To: <199502212008.PAA11924@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Keith Moore wrote: > Also, if we can get AOL to fix some of these problems, there's some > hope that other large sites will follow suit. > Keith Moore There are many different approaches that would work if everyone just used the same one. I'm optimistic that if AOL chooses something reasonable, it will become a defacto standard. The key word is "reasonable". Keep in mind that no matter what they do, it won't be the right thing for some systems. Anything that makes managing lists easier is a good thing. I don't care exactly how they generate a bounce for closed accounts, just as long as I can easily identify it in software and it isn't likely to go to the whole list by mistake. --- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com Web site: http://hamjudo.com/index.html Home: (313) 487-8739 Office: (313) 487-4357 Fax: (313) 487-4371 Finger or email my hottub at hottub@hamjudo.com, seen on TV From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 14:56:20 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA17279 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:40:59 -0800 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA17274 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:40:56 -0800 From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA170636298; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:38:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:38:18 -0500 Message-Id: <950221173817_28260395@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #32 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) wrote: >Well, had you read the rest of that message, you would have >caught the part about the number of bounce messages coming >through (sometimes as many as 80 in a day) that get Cc:'d to my >mail host. Given the fact that my system is a uucp >system, those bounces take up a great deal of transmission time. >The sysadmin of my mail host doesn't appreciate the extra connect >time, nor does he like to see all of those bounce messages hit his >mailbox. If I have a choice between rejecting aol.com and keeping >my list active, guess which is going to happen. I did read the rest of your message and still fail to see why a no-tolerance bounce policy wouldn't solve your problem. >AOL is making money by attracting those clueless people. If other >services and systems on the 'net are having problems with AOL, >they won't attract as many people when their system is refused >access to various aspects of the net. Should I have to drop aol.com >from my list, I'll suggest that the subscribers find alternatives to >aol.com for internet access. If I'm a minority, AOL will >tell me to go to hell and that'll about do it; if I'm not, they'd better >deal with the issues. >From the representation on this list, AOL is dealing with the issues for the most part, and you are a minority. I sympathize with your aggravation, but an AOL vendetta just doesn't seem like the appropriate response. >I'm glad to see that the cluelessness comes from other users on >your list; unfortunately, it comes from AOL on mine. Again, from the representation here, you're in a minority -- everyone has problems with AOLers from time to time, but that's no different, or more widespread, than having trouble with people on other providers. Regards, Deb dwalheim@aol.com dwalheim@sefl.satelnet.org From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 15:25:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id OAA18112 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:55:21 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id OAA18107 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:55:15 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id RAA12168; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:49:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199502212249.RAA12168@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: Paul Haas cc: Keith Moore , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailbox full In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:10:55 EST." Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:49:26 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > Also, if we can get AOL to fix some of these problems, there's some > > hope that other large sites will follow suit. > > There are many different approaches that would work if everyone just > used the same one. I'm optimistic that if AOL chooses something > reasonable, it will become a defacto standard. The key word is > "reasonable". > > Keep in mind that no matter what they do, it won't be the right thing for > some systems. Anything that makes managing lists easier is a good thing. > > I don't care exactly how they generate a bounce for closed accounts, just > as long as I can easily identify it in software and it isn't likely to go > to the whole list by mistake. Many particulars of email and mailing lists are already defined by Internet Standards. I hope AOL will comply with these. As new Internet Standards are developed to solve other problems with mailing lists, I hope AOL will comply with these also. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 15:28:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA18924 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:11:26 -0800 Received: from clark.net (root@clark.net [168.143.0.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id PAA18915 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:11:21 -0800 Received: from lyris.shelby.com (shelby.com [204.156.15.1]) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id SAA16085 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:08:50 -0500 Received: from juno.shelby.com (juno [204.156.15.4]) by lyris.shelby.com (8.6.9/8.6.9-WSGLtd) with SMTP id OAA09597 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 14:46:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199502211946.OAA09597@lyris.shelby.com> X-Sender: jbuckman@204.156.15.2 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:38:38 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: jbuckman@shelby.com (John Buckman) Subject: Re: InfoMagnet Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 03:25 PM 2/21/95 -0600, Dave Kinnaman wrote: >> find, or just the MX sites? Is every copy of your program going to >> do this, or will one central site do it? > >False alarm. InfoMagnet has a central database. Individual users can >update (automatically FTP) from the central site at any time. > >No mailbox probing that I know of....but I am just an InfoMagnet user. Exactly. InfoMagnet does _not_ demon dial IP addresses looking for listmanagers. That would be a _very_bad_thing_. Instead, both Listserv and ListProc keep central list of lists, and daSilva does much the same thing by hand. Here's a possibility: a PERL patch to Majordomo which would email to listregister@someplace.net each time a new _public_ list were created (with the list info). A program would scoop up these email messages, add them to a publicly-accessible WWW site of majordomo lists, and InfoMagnet would feed off of this database (accessible via ftp). If you don't want to be included, fine, don't apply the patch. Alternatively: have a WWW site where people can register their Majordomo server. Every month, like Archie, the program would query these servers as to what lists they have. This wouldn't require any patch to Perl, but wouldn't be as automated, either. John John Buckman - jbuckman@shelby.com - (301) 718-7840 Walter Shelby Group Ltd. - Internet Software Publishers http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ - ftp://ftp.shelby.com/pub/wsg From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 15:31:23 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA18518 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:02:37 -0800 Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA18513 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:02:34 -0800 Received: from [166.84.254.224] (nruggles.dialup.access.net) by panix3.panix.com with SMTP id AA23482 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com); Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:00:16 -0500 X-Sender: nruggles@popserver.panix.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:03:41 -0500 To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com From: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) Subject: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Having tired of reading about AOL here every day, let me introduce a new controversial topic dear to my own heart. I am a marketing consultant. I advise businesses how to market and promote themselves in new media, including CDROM and online services. I am also a long-time net user who manages a manual mailing list (the reason I subscribe). I am NOT a naive newbie asking others to do my homework for me. When promoting clients on the net, my partners and I would like to distribute announcements and special offers to relevant mailing lists, but we DON'T want to antagonize subscribers or list owners. So how should we do it? I've listed a few questions below to prime the pump. Please don't hold back from a sense of civility-- I know this is a VERY sensitive topic-- especially in light of the recent spamming. On the other hand, please don't mail bomb me. 1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? Would you? 2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone _before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? 3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email address for info? WARNING: STOP HERE if you have high blood pressure ================================================== 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing under any circumstances? What if you got paid for it? What if you could review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings would go out? That's it. I'll supply my own views as the discussion develops. Neil Ruggles RUGGLES INTERACTIVE MEDIA (718) 476-3692 35-45 78 Street, Suite 52 (718) 426-3370 fax Jackson Heights, NY 11372 nruggles@panix.com Innovative marketing, promotion, and advertising using CDROM, phone/fax, online services, and the Internet From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 15:55:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id PAA20265 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:30:04 -0800 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (root@UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id PAA20253 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 15:29:56 -0800 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA05524 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:07:31 -0600 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA28136; 21 Feb 95 17:06:46 CST (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.8/8.6.6) id RAA28133 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:06:46 -0600 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199502212306.RAA28133@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: This one takes the cake To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:06:46 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1270 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not to interrupt your AOL bashing or anything, but this has got to be the most amazing thing I've seen to date. Names deleted to protect the clueless: Forwarded message: > From xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxxxxx.xxx.xx.xx Tue Feb 21 16:47:29 1995 > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:32:53 -0500 (EST) > From: "xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" > Message-Id: > To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com > Subject: RE: Some Nameless Mailing List > > In message Sun, 19 Feb 1995 22:24:57 -0600 (CST), > Stephanie da Silva writes: > > > Just checking to make sure this is the correct contact address for the > > xxxxxxxxxx Mailing List. > > Thanks. > Stephanie, > I was wondering if you could be of some assistance? > > I am obviously new to the net and I may have jumped without looking. I had > the idea to start this list and now I do not know just what to do. There are > alot of people contacting me and I e-mail them all back. My question is how do > I do what you do? I have seen your address on the rec.food.cooking > newsgroup. Can you help a new but good intentioned soul? > Thanks > xxxxxxx > > P.S. How can I get in the rec.food.cooking newsgroup? My newsreader doesn't > carry the ALT. groups. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 16:25:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA21961 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:00:46 -0800 Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA21955 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:00:41 -0800 Message-Id: <199502212358.QAA29348@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR-local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id QAA29348; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:58:26 -0700 Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists To: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 16:58:24 MST Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: ; from "Neil Ruggles" at Feb 21, 95 6:03 pm From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk First off, I don't think bribing list owners is the answer. You might be able to get a list owner to accept the bribe, but this would devalue the list and piss the subscribers off. You might get your ad posted this way, but you aren't likely to get a positive response to your product. What I think you should do is: 1) Carefully pick the lists you post to. What you are selling had better be *directly* relevant to the list topic. Otherwise you're just spamming. If you aren't absolutely certain that it is relevant to a particular list, ask the list manager. 2) KEEP IT SHORT. You don't necessarily have to post ALL the relevant info in the first posting, just enough to get some people interested in finding out more. 3) Avoid marketing hype. Don't say things like "we continue to lead the industry..." That turns people off. You can save that stuff for your Web server or your glossy brochures, that people have to come to *you* for. These are strictly my own personal opinions, based on the fact that for most lists I subscribe to, I would not personally object to seeing a new product announcement that met these criteria. --Greg From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 16:28:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA21989 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:01:18 -0800 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id QAA21984 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:01:15 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 19:01:31 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9502211901.aa26219@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Neil Ruggles wrote: >I am a marketing consultant. I advise businesses how to market and promote >themselves in new media, including CDROM and online services. [...] >1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? >Would you? >From people already subscribed to the lists ONLY. Further, the announcement must be pertinent to the readers of the list and apply to their use of the software being discussed on the list. And the announcement must be very short - on the order of a couple lines, with a request to contact the originator for more details. This is the only form of advertising I will accept. It is not negotiable. Actually, that is not entirely correct. The developers of the software packages my lists discuss are permitted to announce new releases, solicit beta testers, etc. (Without their work, there wouldn't be much point in the lists, would there?) >2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone >_before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? Nope. Exception being the cases noted above. >3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or >ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, >prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email >address for info? My conditions are above. >4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to >your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to >the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? I cannot, due to my position, accept any such offers (look at my email address). Even it I could, I doubt very much that I would. My name isn't Pat Townson. >5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing >under any circumstances? What if you got paid for it? What if you could >review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings >would go out? Nope. Nope. Nope. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 16:31:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA23073 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:23:02 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id QAA23064 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:22:58 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id TAA12285; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:17:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199502220017.TAA12285@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) cc: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:03:41 EST." Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 19:17:24 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > When promoting clients on the net, my partners and I would like to > distribute announcements and special offers to relevant mailing lists, but > we DON'T want to antagonize subscribers or list owners. So how should we do > it? There may be no way to do so. Mailing lists aren't generally created for the purpose of allowing people to advertise on them. Your question is sort of like asking "how does one knit a slice of cake?" > 1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? > Would you? Advertising might be appropriate on some of my lists. For instance, I maintain a list that deals with a specific type of laptop computer, which needs special hard disks, software, cases, batteries, etc. An occasional brief note from a supplier about products designed for this model of laptop might be welcome, because it is information that is relevant to the list and not easily found elsewhere. However, advertising hype would NOT be welcomed, and neither would an extensive list of products or services. Also, if the number of ads were even a small fraction (say 5%) of the number of total messages, the utility of the list would suffer too much to make it worthwhile. So even if most ads were appropriate, I might have to disallow advertisements because there would otherwise be too many of them. > 2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone > _before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? I don't have time to answer such queries. Obviously, I'd rather someone ask before posting an inappropriate message, but even taking my time to read their message and figure out whether the message is appropriate is too much of an imposition if I have to do it very often. I'd much prefer that people read the list and see whether it is appropriate before advertising there. One good rule would be: don't even attempt to advertise to any list or newsgroup that you don't read regularly. > 3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or > ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, > prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email > address for info? Any ads should be brief. Pointers to web pages or email servers are a good way to provide more information. > 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to > your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to > the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? I would not accept money for advertising to any of my lists, and I would not join any list that accepted money for advertising. The reason is that no amount of money you could afford is worth the interruption and time it takes to read even a single off-topic message. Either the message is appropriate, in which case it costs nothing to post, or it's inappropriate, and you can't post it for any price. > 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing > under any circumstances? No. I would consider this an abuse of my list members' trust. > What if you got paid for it? Hell, no. I'd be *less* likely to do this for money, because that smacks of favoritism. Either the list membership is open to everyone, or you can't have it for any price. > What if you could > review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings > would go out? I don't have time to do that, even if you want to pay me to do it. Something you have to realize: the real cost of advertising by mass emailing isn't in the cost it takes to produce the material or send it out. The real cost is in everybody's time in reading it, even if they just delete the message. If ads decrease the signal-to-noise ratio on a mailing list to a point that it's unusable, you've destroyed a valuable resource, and there's no way you can pay for that. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 16:55:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id QAA23404 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:29:02 -0800 Received: from gw1.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id QAA23393 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 16:28:58 -0800 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig2.att.att.com id AA19417; Tue, 21 Feb 95 19:27:32 EST Message-Id: <9502220027.AA19417@ig2.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 21 Feb 1995 18:54 EST Subject: AOL-targetting (was Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #28) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "James A. Squire" wonders: >Perhaps AOL users are being unfairly singled out here. I tend to think so. On my list of 280 subscribers, a full 38 are from AOL. The next most frequent domain/site with a recognizable identity is HARVARD.EDU with 7, and others run no more than 3-4 members per entity (including Delphi, Compuserve, Netcom, World, to list some of the other commercial Internet providers). Do I get more problems with AOL addresses than any other SINGLE identifiable domain/site? Well, perhaps (but I couldn't say even that with certainty). Do I get _10 times_ or even 5 times the number of problem/clueless subscribers from AOL (to normalize to the incidence of their subscribers on my list, as cited above)? Definitely not. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 17:25:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id RAA25547 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:16:00 -0800 Received: from unicorn.swi.com.sg (mathias@unicorn.swi.com.sg [202.0.71.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id RAA25539 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 17:15:51 -0800 Received: (from mathias@localhost) by unicorn.swi.com.sg (8.6.9/8.6.6) id JAA24943; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:08:39 +0800 Message-Id: <199502220108.JAA24943@unicorn.swi.com.sg> Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:08:37 +0800 (SST) Cc: nruggles@panix.com, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199502220017.TAA12285@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Feb 21, 95 07:17:24 pm From: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg (Mathias Koerber) Reply-To: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg Organization: SW International Systems Pte Ltd Disclaimer: My company pays me to work, not speak for them. So there ! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 4719 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to Keith Moore | | > When promoting clients on the net, my partners and I would like to | > distribute announcements and special offers to relevant mailing lists, but | > we DON'T want to antagonize subscribers or list owners. So how should we do | > it? | | There may be no way to do so. Mailing lists aren't generally created | for the purpose of allowing people to advertise on them. Your | question is sort of like asking "how does one knit a slice of cake?" | How about this scheme: Mailing lists with subscribers interested in public announcements/ads could establish a companion list for just such things... | > 1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? | > Would you? | | Advertising might be appropriate on some of my lists. For instance, I | maintain a list that deals with a specific type of laptop computer, | which needs special hard disks, software, cases, batteries, etc. An | occasional brief note from a supplier about products designed for this | model of laptop might be welcome, because it is information that is | relevant to the list and not easily found elsewhere. However, | advertising hype would NOT be welcomed, and neither would an extensive | list of products or services. | | Also, if the number of ads were even a small fraction (say 5%) of the | number of total messages, the utility of the list would suffer too | much to make it worthwhile. So even if most ads were appropriate, I | might have to disallow advertisements because there would otherwise be | too many of them. | | > 2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone | > _before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? | | I don't have time to answer such queries. Obviously, I'd rather | someone ask before posting an inappropriate message, but even taking | my time to read their message and figure out whether the message is | appropriate is too much of an imposition if I have to do it very | often. | | I'd much prefer that people read the list and see whether it is | appropriate before advertising there. One good rule would be: don't | even attempt to advertise to any list or newsgroup that you don't read | regularly. | | | > 3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or | > ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, | > prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email | > address for info? | | Any ads should be brief. Pointers to web pages or email servers are a | good way to provide more information. | | > 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to | > your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to | > the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? | | I would not accept money for advertising to any of my lists, and I | would not join any list that accepted money for advertising. The | reason is that no amount of money you could afford is worth the | interruption and time it takes to read even a single off-topic | message. | | Either the message is appropriate, in which case it costs nothing to | post, or it's inappropriate, and you can't post it for any price. | | > 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing | > under any circumstances? | | No. I would consider this an abuse of my list members' trust. | | > What if you got paid for it? | | Hell, no. I'd be *less* likely to do this for money, because that | smacks of favoritism. Either the list membership is open to everyone, | or you can't have it for any price. | | > What if you could | > review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings | > would go out? | | I don't have time to do that, even if you want to pay me to do it. | | Something you have to realize: the real cost of advertising by mass | emailing isn't in the cost it takes to produce the material or send it | out. The real cost is in everybody's time in reading it, even if they | just delete the message. If ads decrease the signal-to-noise ratio on | a mailing list to a point that it's unusable, you've destroyed a | valuable resource, and there's no way you can pay for that. | | Keith Moore | -- Mathias Koerber Tel: +65 / 7780066 x 29 SW International Systems Pte Ltd Fax: +65 / 7779401 14 Science Park Drive #04-01 email: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg The Maxwell, Singapore Science Park S'pore 0511 MK * Eifersucht ist eine Leidenschaft, die mit Eifer sucht, was Leiden schafft * From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 20:55:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA29264 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:44:26 -0800 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id UAA29259 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:44:24 -0800 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA169028086; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:41:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:41:26 -0500 Message-Id: <950221234124_28666800@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: sjf@jsoft.com, ggf@jsoft.com Subject: Dealing with error message reports (was Re: Mailbox full) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gary Frederick writes: >You have your list of mailing lists. Can AOL test the address before they >send a mailbox full message. If it is a mailing list, don't send it. The present database format doesn't make this practical, but once we're ready to export it to FTP it may be possible. I'll need to talk to the programmers. >Build a list of addresses that do not want notice that someone's mailbox is >full. It should be easy to do and it will make life a little easier for >some of us list managers. This is related but should be easier to collect. Again, I'll have to talk to our programmers, but the request seems reasonable to me. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 20:56:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id UAA29333 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:48:41 -0800 Received: from mail.eskimo.com (root@mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id UAA29327 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:48:37 -0800 Received: from eskimo.com by mail.eskimo.com (5.65c/1.35) id AA14336; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:46:29 -0800 Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 20:46:28 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Thornton To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 21 Feb 1995, Neil Ruggles wrote: > 1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? > Would you? Yes. Yes. Encourage it, in fact. > 2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone > _before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? No. Unless the proposed ad was offcharter, in which I'd be angry with or without warning. > 3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or > ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, > prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email > address for info? Yes, I would. All of the above. > 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to > your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to > the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? Absolutely refuse. If the ad is offtopic, I won't allow it, period; if it's on-topic, I wouldn't even consider accepting payment; I feel that it's unethical. > 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing > under any circumstances? What if you got paid for it? What if you could > review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings > would go out? Surely you're joking. No f*ckin' way. My situation may be a little different than a lot of you people. Most of the lists I belong to are very strictly against advertising, regardless of whether it's related to the list subject or not. But the list I run among other things serves as a distribution mechanism for independent music that is mostly closed out of the normal commercial outlets. I strongly encourage indie bands and labels to advertise their music. But if someone from, say, Warner Brothers or Geffen Records approached me about an ad, I'd flatly refuse, and I wouldn't think twice about it. My goal is to serve the community that subscribes to my list; no one else. So even though some of my answers are technically "yes", if I understand what you're driving at, I'm against it. | Steve Thornton | stevet@eskimo.com | Seattle, Washington, USA | | Send 'subscribe indiepop' to majordomo@eskimo.com for la-la fun | | TweeNet indiepop (and baseball): http://www.eskimo.com/~stevet/ | From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 21:25:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA00478 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:22:12 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id VAA00471 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:22:09 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:20:02 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:03:35 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #32 From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:03:02 CST In-Reply-To: <950221173817_28260395@aol.com> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1598 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!aol.com!DWalheim writes: > I did read the rest of your message and still fail to see why a no-tolerance > bounce policy wouldn't solve your problem. I already have a no-tolerance policy in place. The problem is that AOL bounces messages in such a volume that the damage is already done by the time I drop the user. If 10 messages go out tomorrow to 3 AOL users who either have full mailboxes or don't exist any more (30-day wonders), that means 30 bounce messages hit my system (and that of my mailhost's sysadmin) *before* my zero-tolerance policy kicks in. Last Saturday, that situation happened with 8 AOL users, making for close to 80 messages. Making sense now? > From the representation on this list, AOL is dealing with the issues for the > most part, and you are a minority. I sympathize with your aggravation, but > an AOL vendetta just doesn't seem like the appropriate response. If I were on an AOL vendetta, I'd be posting this stuff in newsgroups more widely read than this list. I posted my problems, and asked if anyone else has experienced them. Please don't read characterizations into my messages that aren't there. This is discussion; vendetta is going out and encouraging people to leave the service. The situation hasn't come to that yet, and hopefully won't. That's why I solicited others' opinions on their experiences in the first place. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 21:27:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id VAA00483 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:22:15 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id VAA00476 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:22:10 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:20:04 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:22:30 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: <8oJw1c5w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 20:06:18 CST In-Reply-To: Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3585 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!panix.com!nruggles (Neil Ruggles) writes: > I've listed a few questions below to prime the pump. Please don't hold back > from a sense of civility-- I know this is a VERY sensitive topic-- > especially in light of the recent spamming. On the other hand, please don't > mail bomb me. Hopefully you won't get mail-bombed. After all, civil questions deserve civil answers. > > 1) Have you ever accepted publicity/advertising announcements on your list? > Would you? Yes, and maybe I would again in the future, on my New Orleans list. If you had a product that related to the list (travel-related, perhaps, or a business that was opening a branch or starting service in the New Orleans area), then it's something of interest to the users. The woman who tried to send an ad about a diet program to my list over the weekend, on the other hand, was out of line. > > 2) Would it matter if you were contacted personally by email or phone > _before_ someone sent an unsolicited announcement to your list? > This is assuming they give me the right of refusal. If someone contacts me and tells me they're going to do it, my opinion be damned, I would be concerned. If someone sent me a copy of the ad for review, then it's back to the criteria in #1. If the ad clearly meets my criteria from #1, then I probably wouldn't be concerned. > 3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or > ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, > prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email > address for info? Alot would depend on the product/service. Some things don't raise eyebrows, for example, a book or magazine. Travel services, consulting, etc., might be better handled with an e-mail address or a Web page. As the owner of a commercial Web site, I definitely think that a combination of WWW and mail to cover the people without Web access is the best solution in any case. > 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to > your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to > the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? This is such a grey area. My feed for this site is from a non-profit organization who is pretty much a stickler for non-commercial traffic. If the ad was clearly relevant to the subject matter of the list, I'd probably encourage the company desiring placement of the ad to pay for a page on my Web site (which is with another provider, so the non-commercial concern doesn't exist), and put a simple pointer on the list. If there was a way I could work a mention of the product into my FAQ for the list, perhaps I'd go that far. > > 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing > under any circumstances? What if you got paid for it? What if you could > review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings > would go out? Such a grey area. I definitely would want to poll the readership of the list to see if there was a consensus. Perhaps I could even come up with a subset list, sort of like one of those "check here if you don't want junk mail" options you see on magazine subscription cards sometimes. I guess the best answer I could give to such a question is that I'd have to review all of the consequences before diving in. |Edward J. Branley elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us| |Seashell Software +1.504.455.5087 (voice)| |3508 North Woodlawn Ave, Metairie, LA 70006 +1.504.455.8665 (bbs)| From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 22:25:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA01216 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:12:40 -0800 Received: from panix4.panix.com (panix4.panix.com [198.7.0.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA01211 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:12:37 -0800 Received: from [166.84.254.224] (nruggles.dialup.access.net) by panix4.panix.com with SMTP id AA28923 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:10:21 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:13:45 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Cc: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 2/21 Greg Woods wrote: >First off, I don't think bribing list owners is the answer. You might be >able to get a list owner to accept the bribe, but this would devalue the >list and piss the subscribers off. You might get your ad posted this way, >but you aren't likely to get a positive response to your product. What I >think you should do is: Greg, thanks for your quick response to my suggestion that list managers get paid for use of their lists. Thanks too for your candid suggestions-- the 3-part approach you suggested is just about what I have done to date. Since you replied first, Greg, I'll use your remarks to talk about ads in lists. You refer to "paying for the use of a mailing list" as a "bribe," and suggest a list owner would take such a bribe to place an unsuitable ad that would piss off subscribers. You suggest further that any ad placed this way would not get a positive response. Let's look at this another way. Mailing lists, at least in digest form, have a lot in common with traditional special-interest magazines. After all, most of the info in a list comes from extremely interested or capable readers who become writers. These writers usually discuss topics that interest the readers. Usually only a few writers contribute actively to the list. There is often an editor, called a moderator, or list manager, who decides which stories get published. And the moderator often contributes short editorials to keep the list interesting. So how do ads work in a magazine. First, business _expects_ to pay for ads. PR people work very hard to get the "free ads" referred to as publicity. They might even _bribe_ an editor with a "free lunch." But the "bribe" usually won't get an irrelevant puff piece into the magazine. And in special interest magazines like Bride or PC World, ads DO interest the readers, sometimes enough to be the reason they buy the magazine (Computer Shopper). Magazines prove the concept. What seems to be missing is the profit motive. Why is it missing? Not because list managers don't like to make money! I have read too many complaints about off-the-net publishers and commercial online services profiting from net laborers. Would any of you mind getting a cut of the Prodigy or AOL pie? I doubt it. Frankly, I think the real explanation is that it's a lot easier (and perhaps more fun) to run a list for free than for profit. Running a list for profit means either charging fees to subscribers or charging people in a carefully controlled way to place ads in your lists. Neither approach is easy, but neither is unthinkable. Both _do_ require new skills. Charging subscription fees means getting subscribers,, making sure your list has real value to them, and finding a way to collect the money. Including ads means maintaining consistent editorial focus, knowing something about your readers, selling ads, and considering carefully what mix of ads and editorial will keep your subscribers happy. These are not the skills it takes to run a free mailing list on the net. So it's not surprising that many list managers are nervous about "profits". But guess what-- most other netizens don't know how to run a list for profit either. List managers are in an enviable position-- they can experiment with ads at negligible cost since they run the list anyway. I challenge the entrepreneurs reading this list to think differently about the lists they manage. No one benefits from spamming. Maybe _controlled_ advertising is the right approach. Neil Ruggles RUGGLES INTERACTIVE MEDIA (718) 476-3692 35-45 78 Street, Suite 52 (718) 426-3370 fax Jackson Heights, NY 11372 nruggles@panix.com Innovative marketing, promotion, and advertising using CDROM, phone/fax, online services, and the Internet From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 22:26:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id WAA01224 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:12:54 -0800 Received: from panix4.panix.com (panix4.panix.com [198.7.0.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id WAA01219 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:12:49 -0800 Received: from [166.84.254.224] (nruggles.dialup.access.net) by panix4.panix.com with SMTP id AA28947 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:10:32 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:13:56 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Cc: Keith Moore Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith, thanks for the prompt and thorough response. Your comments about list rentals helped me remember the advice I give my own clients about keeping trust. >Also, if the number of ads were even a small fraction (say 5%) of the >number of total messages, the utility of the list would suffer too >much to make it worthwhile. Keith, I was suggesting that YOU, as list manager, be in control of what gets into the list. Perhaps you are uncomfortable about "censoring" a list by deciding what does and doesn't get into it? Are your lists unmoderated? I'm not sure how a decision to let in an ad, or 5 ads, or ten ads, is any different from the decisions a moderator makes every day about which letters to let in. Personally, I find A LOT of irrelevant stuff (to me) on every list I subscribe to. But I stick with lists because of the occasional nuggets of gold. >So even if most ads were appropriate, I >might have to disallow advertisements because there would otherwise be >too many of them. I suspect that charging people to place ads in a list would go a long way toward controlling how many want to be there. If there are too many advertisers, just keep raising the price. If a list is THAT popular with advertisers, the manager deserves to make some money. >I'd much prefer that people read the list and see whether it is >appropriate before advertising there. One good rule would be: don't >even attempt to advertise to any list or newsgroup that you don't read >regularly. I think that's an excellent rule. What would you think of a service (heavily automated) that subscribed to _lots_ of lists, indexed their contents, and made the indexes available to advertisers looking for a compatible list? Would you support such an automoton if it meant advertisers were better educated about your list and its subscribers? If it meant fewer irrelevant messages? >I would not join any list that accepted money for advertising. The >reason is that no amount of money you could afford is worth the >interruption and time it takes to read even a single off-topic >message. And yet we both probably subscribe to quite a few magazines, each of which is filled with ads, usually located on the right hand page to force us to notice the ad before continuing with the story. In fact, the current issue of Wired has 7 pages of ads in front of the Table of Contents. I hate turning those pages to get to the TOC, but I'll keep my subscription. Also, if the list manager is in control of the ads, why would they be off-topic? And how can we know what _anyone_ can afford to pay to advertise in lists when so few are doing it, and even fewer are discussing it. >> 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing >> under any circumstances? > >No. I would consider this an abuse of my list members' trust. Thanks for reminding me how important trust is in the kinds of close relationships that develop oinline. Maintaining customer trust is one of the basic tenets of 1-1 marketing. I assume this means you disable the WHO (or like) function in the lists you manage? >Hell, no. I'd be *less* likely to do this for money, because that >smacks of favoritism. Either the list membership is open to everyone, >or you can't have it for any price. Do the moderated list managers among us have the same view? >If ads decrease the signal-to-noise ratio on >a mailing list to a point that it's unusable, you've destroyed a >valuable resource, and there's no way you can pay for that. As a reader of too many mailing lists I agree completely. I only wish we could also limit the noise in many non-commercial messages. As hordes of newbies join the net, I suspect the only _real_ control over signal-to-noise will come from a moderator. And once a moderator is in place, ads won't make a list unusable as long as the moderator does the same kind of screening they do for non-commercial messages. Neil Ruggles RUGGLES INTERACTIVE MEDIA (718) 476-3692 35-45 78 Street, Suite 52 (718) 426-3370 fax Jackson Heights, NY 11372 nruggles@panix.com Innovative marketing, promotion, and advertising using CDROM, phone/fax, online services, and the Internet From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 21 23:25:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id XAA01723 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:12:57 -0800 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id XAA01718 for ; Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:12:53 -0800 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id CAA13349; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 02:07:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199502220707.CAA13349@wilma.cs.utk.edu> From: Keith Moore To: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Keith Moore Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:13:56 EST." Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 02:07:18 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Also, if the number of ads were even a small fraction (say 5%) of the > >number of total messages, the utility of the list would suffer too > >much to make it worthwhile. > > Keith, I was suggesting that YOU, as list manager, be in control of what > gets into the list. Perhaps you are uncomfortable about "censoring" a list > by deciding what does and doesn't get into it? Are your lists unmoderated? I said in my previous message that I don't have time to handle requests to allow advertising on my lists. Neither do I have the time to moderate them. I'd much prefer that my lists be self-policing. My comment about the "small fraction" was in that light: even if the those who submit ads keep them brief and on-topic, when too many of them do so the list becomes worthless. So even self-policing doesn't work after a point. At that point I'd say it's better to ban all advertisements. > I suspect that charging people to place ads in a list would go a long way > toward controlling how many want to be there. If there are too many > advertisers, just keep raising the price. If a list is THAT popular with > advertisers, the manager deserves to make some money. Maybe, if the purpose of a list is to make money. But my lists weren't set up for that reason. The lists I run exist because they give me an opportunity to use my interest in a particular topic to provide service to the net community. Lest this seem strange, MY purpose isn't to make money, either. I have enough money, and precious little time. Your offering to give me more money for less time isn't very attractive (actually, it borders on insulting), and it doesn't provide any useful service to my list members. (If the service of advertising were useful to my list, you could do it for free). > >I'd much prefer that people read the list and see whether it is > >appropriate before advertising there. One good rule would be: don't > >even attempt to advertise to any list or newsgroup that you don't read > >regularly. > > I think that's an excellent rule. What would you think of a service > (heavily automated) that subscribed to _lots_ of lists, indexed their > contents, and made the indexes available to advertisers looking for a > compatible list? Would you support such an automoton if it meant > advertisers were better educated about your list and its subscribers? No, because the effect would be to make it easy for prospective advertisers to circumvent the "you must read the list" rule. Let me put it another way. Those who advertise on a list should be contributing members of the community that the list serves. Your automoton would not be serving that community. It would be taking information from the community and exposing that community to increased abuse as a result. You would be making money from the lists, but it appears that you would be returning nothing to them or to the net community in general. > If it meant fewer irrelevant messages? I doubt seriously that it would have this effect. > >I would not join any list that accepted money for advertising. The > >reason is that no amount of money you could afford is worth the > >interruption and time it takes to read even a single off-topic > >message. > > And yet we both probably subscribe to quite a few magazines, each of which > is filled with ads, usually located on the right hand page to force us to > notice the ad before continuing with the story. Your assumption is incorrect. I do not subscribe to magazines or newspapers, because the signal to noise ratio is too low, and they are usually not worth the time it takes to read them or the effort to carry them to the trash can. (No, I don't watch much television either.) And your analogy is not valid either. Advertisements in magazines do provide some value to the reader, by paying for part of the cost of content, printing, and distribution. But in the case of mailing lists, the costs for these are already low, and advertising is not needed. > In fact, the current issue > of Wired has 7 pages of ads in front of the Table of Contents. I hate > turning those pages to get to the TOC, but I'll keep my subscription. I don't buy Wired anymore either. They weren't telling me anything (well, not anything *useful*) that I didn't already know. > Also, if the list manager is in control of the ads, why would they be > off-topic? And how can we know what _anyone_ can afford to pay to advertise > in lists when so few are doing it, and even fewer are discussing it. > > >> 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing > >> under any circumstances? > > > >No. I would consider this an abuse of my list members' trust. > > Thanks for reminding me how important trust is in the kinds of close > relationships that develop oinline. Maintaining customer trust is one of > the basic tenets of 1-1 marketing. I assume this means you disable the WHO > (or like) function in the lists you manage? There is no such function in the lists I manage. But your question is irrelevant. In some cases it is perfectly reasonable to allow someone to see who is on a list. But it is still abusive for that person to use that information for purposes which are counter to those for which the information was collected. > >If ads decrease the signal-to-noise ratio on > >a mailing list to a point that it's unusable, you've destroyed a > >valuable resource, and there's no way you can pay for that. > > As a reader of too many mailing lists I agree completely. I only wish we > could also limit the noise in many non-commercial messages. Agreed, but that's a separate problem. Actually I've had reasonable success with this in one of my lists (sort of an experiment), with little effort on my part. Instead of actively filtering messages, I simply send out an occasional message when the signal-to-noise ratio gets too low. I've had good support from the list on this, and some of the members now take it upon themselves to inform newbies (via private mail) and prospective members about the cultural norms of the list. > As hordes of newbies join the net, I suspect the only _real_ control > over signal-to-noise will come from a moderator. Control isn't the only way to keep the signal-to-noise level high. My experience is that a sense of community can be helpful here. But it takes awhile to develop the etiquette necessary for this to work -- for example, you have to train people to reply to inappropriate posts politely, and via private email, rather than flaming to the list. > And once a moderator is in place, ads won't make a list unusable as > long as the moderator does the same kind of screening they do for > non-commercial messages. In my mind, this makes it more like a magazine than a list. Magazines can serve useful purposes, but they don't encourage community in the same way as on a mailing list. I think there is room for net magazines that accept advertising and/or charge subscription fees, and provide more value to their readers than ordinary mailing lists. But unless advertising provides more value to the *readers*, it doesn't belong on a mailing list. In any business transaction, both parties should walk away with something more valuable (to them) than they had before the transaction. If this is not the case, the transaction serves no useful purpose to society. Advertising is the same way. If those who are inconvenienced by the advertisement are not compensated in some way which is more valuable to them, the advertising is inappropriate. On most mailing lists, the set of conditions under which the list readers benefit from advertising is sufficiently small that all advertising should be suspect. Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 00:26:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id AAA02592 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:09:23 -0800 Received: from noc.BelWue.DE (root@noc.BelWue.DE [129.143.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id AAA02587 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:09:16 -0800 Received: from charon-gw.ZEW-Mannheim.DE by noc.BelWue.DE with SMTP id AA17167 (5.65c8/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:06:36 +0100 Received: From ZEW/WORKQUEUE by charon-gw.zew-mannheim.de via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950222090550.288; 22 Feb 95 09:06:40 +0100 Message-Id: From: "Michael Luebbeke" Organization: Zentrum f.Europ. Wirtschaftsforschg To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:05:19 MEZ-1 Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: list-managers-digest-owner@greatcircle.com > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 21:25:10 -0800 > To: list-managers-digest@greatcircle.com > Subject: List-Managers-Digest V4 #33 > Reply-to: List-Managers@greatcircle.com > > From: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:03:41 -0500 > Subject: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists > > 4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to > your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to > the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? I think, thats the point: if infos are of interest to me, I don't care wether they came from business or private or NPO's. If the posting is clearly subject to be commercial (i.e. "Announcement:" or similar) and the sender could be identified (to be blamed, when spamming), I wouldn't have any problem to welcome him on my list, as long as I do have the control. Payment would be accepted and cleary stated in the subject line. If my readers (that is: my customers) think, I just put too many ads on my list just make money and they get bored by this, they will leave my list, therefore my list will get less attractive for ads and I will loose both, customers and money --> my list dies. So its up to me, as the moderator/administrator to find the right mixture. That's life, that works (in the real world) and that leads to well distributed ressources. Just my point of view....... > > 5) Would you open your subscriber list to an unsolicited direct emailing > under any circumstances? What if you got paid for it? What if you could > review the proposed mailing beforehand and were assured no other mailings > would go out? > From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 01:25:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id BAA04251 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:22:17 -0800 Received: from jazzie.com (p8.jazzie.com [192.147.229.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id BAA04246 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:22:13 -0800 Received: by jazzie.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #63) id m0rhDDk-000OWhC; Wed, 22 Feb 95 01:18 PST Message-Id: From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira) Subject: List Managers as Public Servants To: nruggles@panix.com (Neil Ruggles) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 01:18:55 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, woods@ncar.ucar.edu In-Reply-To: from "Neil Ruggles" at Feb 22, 95 01:13:45 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 926 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Neil Ruggles wrote: > On 2/21 Greg Woods wrote: > >First off, I don't think bribing list owners is the answer. > > You refer to "paying for the use of a mailing list" as a "bribe," > [...] Let's look at this another way. [...] I challenge the > entrepreneurs reading this list to think differently about > the lists they manage. Neil seems to have missed Greg's point: many (probably most) list managers are acting as public servants, not entrepreneurs. His analogy to magazine editors is poor; city workers who sweep streets seems much closer. It is as if Neil were suggesting street sweepers could be financed by advertisers paying them to scatter leaflets on the street, instead of sweeping them into the trash where they belong. I for one commend Greg on his use of the term bribe.... -- Sean Shapira sds@jazzie.com (206) 443-2028 Jazzie Systems From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 03:55:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id DAA05578 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 03:50:56 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (root@europe.std.com [192.74.137.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id DAA05573 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 03:50:53 -0800 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.8.1/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA15198; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:48:43 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09751; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:48:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:48:42 +0001 (EST) From: Sharon Shea Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists To: Neil Ruggles Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Greg Woods In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > explanation is that it's a lot easier (and perhaps more fun) to run a list > for free than for profit. > > Running a list for profit means either charging fees to subscribers or > charging people in a carefully controlled way to place ads in your lists. > Neither approach is easy, but neither is unthinkable. Both _do_ require new > skills. > > Charging subscription fees means getting subscribers,, making sure your > list has real value to them, and finding a way to collect the money. > Including ads means maintaining consistent editorial focus, knowing > something about your readers, selling ads, and considering carefully what > mix of ads and editorial will keep your subscribers happy. > > These are not the skills it takes to run a free mailing list on the net. So > it's not surprising that many list managers are nervous about "profits". > But guess what-- most other netizens don't know how to run a list for > profit either. List managers are in an enviable position-- they can > experiment with ads at negligible cost since they run the list anyway. > > I challenge the entrepreneurs reading this list to think differently about > the lists they manage. No one benefits from spamming. Maybe _controlled_ > advertising is the right approach. > Since I'm paying a commercial provider where I keep my lists, maintaining them is a cost to me - so it's not 'for free.' I really would hate to drop my lists due to my own financial constraints, so I do begin to have to seriously consider how to balance my books. I'm setting up a gopher site, (with topics worked out with the rest of the list membership) and vendors is one of the areas we will list on the site. I'm going to be asking the vendors for a small fee to post their information for a year. It should help absorb the cost of maintaining the list and the gopher site, and absolutely no one on the list is having a problem with this. The vendors are getting lots of advertising at very low cost, the membership is interested in their products, the quality of the list is improved, and I'm (hopefully) not going to have to shell too much more out of my own pocket to keep the list going. I really don't have a problem with covering costs (or maybe coming out ahead sometime) for this effort. The list membership has been quite supportive of this approach, and I am careful to include them in this process of determining list objectives and finances. Seems to be working for us at the moment. -Sharon From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 05:25:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id EAA06356 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 04:57:48 -0800 Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id EAA06350 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 04:57:44 -0800 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA11268 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 95 07:45:25 -0500 Received: from spud by jsoft.com (NX5.67d/NX3.02M) id AA14113; Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:29:38 -0600 Message-Id: <9502221229.AA14113@ jsoft.com> Received: by spud (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA03066; Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:29:38 -0600 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:29:36 -0600 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mailbox full Reply-To: Gary Frederick References: <199502211857.NAA11820@wilma.cs.utk.edu> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >There's a crucial detail or three missing from this description. ... Sorry I was not clear. We use listproc and it handles the AOL mailbox full messages just fine. I was describing a situation and asking if there was something 'better' that could be done. >The point is, there are already well-established protocols to prevent >undesirable behavior from bounced mail. Rather than try to invent new >ways to solve this problem, we should use the ones that are >standardized. > Good comment. Our lists have Errors-To: ggf@jsoft.com Precedence: bulk and the To: pointed to the list. What else could I do? ===== >>Build a list of addresses that do not want notice that someone's mailbox is >>full. It should be easy to do and it will make life a little easier for some >>of us list managers. > >The question is, is it really a good idea to suppress bounces when the >mailbox is full? The whole idea is to reduce the usage of netbandwidth. >If people have a full mailbox, they're evidently not going to benefit from >further messages from your mailinglist. I.e. they might as well be >unsubscribed. > >If the problem really is transient, these bounce messages could be suppressed >(if coming from a mailinglist); the problem is determining what is a transient >problem and what not. Good point. If it's a transient problem, don't use up bandwidth sending mail back to a mailing list. If the problem (full mailbox in my example) does not go away, send a message so the list owner can remove the address from the list. If I unsubscribe someone as soon as I get a message that they have a full mailbox, that saves bandwidth. It also removes someone that may have had a VERY transient problem from the list. Is the proper thing to do to supress sending warning messages back if the mail has 'Precedence: bulk' and send an error message to the 'Errors-To:' if an account is no longer active? Gary From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:25:17 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07686 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:20:52 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA07681 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:20:49 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA04634; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:11:47 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27064; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:15:29 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:15:29 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502221415.AA27064@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: More PR stuff Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >And once a moderator is in >place, ads won't make a list unusable as long as the moderator does the >same kind of screening they do for non-commercial messages. Won't this also bring some new *legal* responsibilities/liabilities to each moderator? It would seem that an editor/moderator has a more significant legal standing than the manager of an unmoderated list. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:28:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07500 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:08:32 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA07495 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:08:29 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA04487; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:01:44 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26613; Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:49:40 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:49:40 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502221349.AA26613@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: PR pros and lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >| There may be no way to do so. Mailing lists aren't generally created >| for the purpose of allowing people to advertise on them. Your >| question is sort of like asking "how does one knit a slice of cake?" >| >How about this scheme: > >Mailing lists with subscribers interested in public announcements/ads could >establish a companion list for just such things... Better yet, why doesn't the advertiser (or their PR firm) create and maintain a list for this purpose? I wouldn't have heartburn with an occasional "hey, we run a commercial list to discuss our products" announcement on my list, every 3-4 months or so. I'd like to see the commercial firms take responsibility for their own publicity, instead of expecting us to carry it with our labor/resources. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:30:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07696 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:21:58 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA07691 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:21:55 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA04504; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:02:15 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26565; Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:43:23 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 08:43:23 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502221343.AA26565@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: PR pros and lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Keith Moore > >Something you have to realize: the real cost of advertising by mass >emailing isn't in the cost it takes to produce the material or send it >out. The real cost is in everybody's time in reading it, even if they >just delete the message. Remember, too, that many sites are paying *real* money for their email. There are still many uucp sites, and some folks in Europe/Asia pay *by the packet* for TCP/IP traffic. Toss in folks at US commercial servi- ces, who often pay extra for email messages beyond a certain monthly allotment, and that's quite a few people who would be coughing up the dough to receive your advertisements. I don't believe that indiscriminate junk emailers would find a warm reception among those folks. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:33:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07705 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:23:04 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA07700 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:23:01 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA04660; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:16:18 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27282; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:21:29 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:21:29 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502221421.AA27282@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: PR pros and lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >3) Would you allow an announcement that included offers, prices, or >ordering instructions for a product or service? If not, how should offers, >prices, and other clearly commercial material be handled? Web pages? Email >address for info? I don't have a problem if you want to join my list, watch the discussion and contribute pointers to your web page/email address/whatever *in the context of the ongoing discussion*. (It should be noted that several lists include pointers to commercial sources in their FAQs and new-user-welcome documents.) I have *NO* tolerance for blind, unsolicited, out-of-context advertisements. We (my list is for admins of a particular type of Unix system) are already prime targets for postal junk mail; I have no desire whatsoever to see my list become a conduit for electronic junk mail. >4) How would you react if someone offered to pay you to post an "ad" to >your list? Would your reaction change if the "ad" was clearly relevant to >the list topic? Would it matter how much money you were offered? It wouldn't matter - the answer to any overt advertising will be 'no.' Basically, my position is simple. I expect the commercial participants of the net to be just that - participants. If someone wants to join my list, take part in the discussions, and (possibly) contact other members via email to work with them *in response to their comments/problems*, that's fine; I have several list members doing that now. If, on the other hand, someone wants to just come smoking in and start dispatching blind advertisements, they aren't participating - they're leeching, and I have no tolerance for that. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:35:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07361 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:02:24 -0800 Received: from clark.net (root@clark.net [168.143.0.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA07356 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:02:21 -0800 Received: from lyris.shelby.com (shelby.com [204.156.15.1]) by clark.net (8.6.9/8.6.5) with ESMTP id JAA08191 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 09:00:11 -0500 Received: from juno.shelby.com (juno [204.156.15.4]) by lyris.shelby.com (8.6.9/8.6.9-WSGLtd) with SMTP id FAA13925 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 05:37:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199502221037.FAA13925@lyris.shelby.com> X-Sender: jbuckman@204.156.15.2 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:29:58 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: jbuckman@shelby.com (John Buckman) Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:17 PM 2/21/95 -0500, Keith Moore wrote: >Mailing lists aren't generally created >for the purpose of allowing people to advertise on them. I disagree. Mailing lists aren't that different from Magazines, especially when you are talking about something like China News Digest (which is essentially publoshed using a list), or a moderated mailing list. Consumer reports magazine, for example, won't sell my name to other companies, but they do take money to distribute marketing materials to me directly. This way, they can control what their readership gets. A list is very similar in this regard, and it strikes me that it is up to the list-manager's discretion whether to open the list to paid messages. Let me make a different point. Some customers of ours use InfoMagnet to search several lists for people asking questions their product can answer. For example, if you sell medical supplies, you might want to know whenever the word "buy" or "purchase" comes up in the medical groups. When the topic does come up, you might contribute to the group and simply say "We sell medical supplies, check this URL for more info" I'm on a Lotus Notes group, and the group generally welcomes vendors coming in and discussing their solutions to a problem being discussed. Prohibiting the vendors from contributing would take away a significant source of information. I'd also point out that usually that list are in fact nothing but a vehicle to "advertise" one's opinion. Each person's opinion is shaped by different factors. When a vendor is advertising their opinion, people tend to object if they sense that the opinion is based more on a need to earn a living than the intrinsic truth of the opinion. And finally: has no-one noticed that the signature lines at the bottom of each person's email message is in fact an advertisement? To me the issue of advertising on the net is an issue of style. If the advertiser is contributing to a list topic and doing so in a fairly unbiased way, it seems to be accepted by the list members. For people really interested in Internet marketing issues, I recommend these lists: GLOBALMC: Global Marketing Consortium Discussion List GLOBMKT: Applied Global Marketing MARKET-L: For the Discussion of Marketing RITIM-L: Telecommunications and Information Marketing RITMVIEW: RITIM Views on Info Tech Markets and Consumers John John Buckman - jbuckman@shelby.com - (301) 718-7840 Walter Shelby Group Ltd. - Internet Software Publishers http://www.shelby.com/pub/shelby/ - ftp://ftp.shelby.com/pub/wsg From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:39:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA07577 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:13:07 -0800 Received: from d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (d.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with SMTP id GAA07572 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:13:03 -0800 Received: from s.ecc.engr.uky.edu by d.ecc.engr.uky.edu (5.59/25-eef) id AA04610; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:06:20 EST Received: by s.ecc.engr.uky.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27051; Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:11:32 EST Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 09:11:32 EST From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan) Message-Id: <9502221411.AA27051@s.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So how do ads work in a magazine. First, business _expects_ to pay for ads. >PR people work very hard to get the "free ads" referred to as publicity. >They might even _bribe_ an editor with a "free lunch." But the "bribe" >usually won't get an irrelevant puff piece into the magazine. And in >special interest magazines like Bride or PC World, ads DO interest the >readers, sometimes enough to be the reason they buy the magazine (Computer >Shopper). Magazines prove the concept. Umm...you forgot the part where the revenues from advertising subsidize the magazine, all the way down to lowering (or, in some cases, elimina- ting) the eventual recipient's subscription cost. There is no parallel in the online world at this time. Paying me to advertise on my list does absolutely nothing for the fellow on CompuServe who pays surcharges for any significant number of external email messages. _Computer Shopper_ is an exception, where the ad-to-meat ratio is about 25:1; I view it as a mail-order catalog, not a magazine. (I do not know a *single* individual who actually subscribes to it.) >Frankly, I think the real explanation is that it's a lot easier (and >perhaps more fun) to run a list for free than for profit. It's possible (if not probably) that many lists were formed to speci- fically *avoid* advertising and the trappings of hype. >Running a list for profit means either charging fees to subscribers or >charging people in a carefully controlled way to place ads in your lists. >Neither approach is easy, but neither is unthinkable. Both _do_ require new >skills. You're forgetting something. Go root through a compendium of mailing lists. Count the number of addresses that end in ".edu" or ".gov" and think about the ethical question of paying *those* list owners. I suspect that a strong majority of our mailing lists exist through the courtesy of third parties; my list is just such an example. (I no longer work for engr.uky.edu, but they have courteously allowed me to keep my access and host my list on their sys- tem) I, for one, would be *extremely* uncomfortable about making money as a result of their courtesy. (As far as universities go, there are *all kinds* of rules/regulations/laws about the use of their systems for commercial pur- poses.) >I challenge the entrepreneurs reading this list to think differently about >the lists they manage. No one benefits from spamming. Maybe _controlled_ >advertising is the right approach. I challenge the public relations professional to *get involved*. Just as there are now sites which, for a fee, create and maintain web pages, there can be sites which create/maintain mailing lists. I can't help but feel that there's a move afoot to leech from the work done by list managers. "Hey, here's a ready-made target audience!" I've worked in the direct marketing business - I know the mindset. --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 22 06:55:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) id GAA08406 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:50:32 -0800 Received: from rex.cs.tulane.edu (rex.cs.tulane.edu [129.81.132.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-941015-1) with ESMTP id GAA08394 for ; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 06:50:12 -0800 Received: by rex.cs.tulane.edu; Wed, 22 Feb 1995 08:47:45 -0600 >Received: by mintir.new-orleans.la.us (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:46:37 CST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How should public relations pros work with mailing lists From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Feb 95 06:44:53 CST In-Reply-To: <199502220108.JAA24943@unicorn.swi.com.sg> Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans) Content-Type: text Content-Length: 731 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk rex!swi.com.sg!Mathias.Koerber (Mathias Koerber) writes: > How about this scheme: > > Mailing lists with subscribers interested in public announcements/ads could > establish a companion list for just such things... This has been