From list-managers-owner Mon May 1 05:09:08 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA28971 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 1995 04:54:15 -0700 Received: from gatech.edu (gatech.edu [130.207.244.244]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA28966 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 04:54:12 -0700 Received: from ce.gatech.edu by gatech.edu with SMTP id AA15009 (5.65c/Gatech-10.0-IDA for ); Mon, 1 May 1995 07:55:16 -0400 Received: from copepc (copepc.ce.gatech.edu) by ce.gatech.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09620; Mon, 1 May 95 07:58:09 EDT Message-Id: <9505011158.AA09620@ce.gatech.edu> X-Sender: gordon@ce.gatech.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 07:44:12 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: gordon.thompson@ce.gatech.edu (Gordon Thompson) Subject: Approving postings X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am a new administrator to Majordomo, and I have been pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to set up mailing lists. I am having problems Approving postings to a list using mailer packages such as Eudora and Mailtool. Has anyone had experience doing this? Thanks!!! ==== Gordon Thompson School of Civil & Environmental Engineering 894-2210 From list-managers-owner Mon May 1 09:17:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04043 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 1995 08:57:49 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com (gw1.att.com [192.20.239.133]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA04037 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 08:57:45 -0700 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA12723; Mon, 1 May 95 11:58:15 EDT Message-Id: <9505011558.AA12723@ig1.att.att.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: 1 May 1995 11:40 EDT Subject: Re: Unsubscription bounces - sites sending unsubsription commands instead of ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Marko Toivanen asks: >How do you folks feel about sites trying to send automatic >unsu**cription commands instead of delivery failure >notifications when bouncing list mail because of non-existent >users? A future paradise for list-managers or more heat to the >usual purgatory of list management? I think the efforts should be concentrated in making error messages in a standard format that is easier for a machine to parse (perhaps with numeric codes, etc.). Then it will be relatively simple for the *list management software* to auto-delete (if so enabled) when a bounce arrives to the owner-listname address. This approach has several advantages: - Standard format error messages have potential benefits beyond just mailing list unsubscriptions - You don't need an expert system at every node trying to figure out what command needs to be sent to which address, and the associated syntax, based on it's guess as to which software at which site is running the list! - The ability to do remote unsubscriptions has got to open a security loophole--maybe this exists anyway for lists that have open subscriptions and unsubscriptions, but an auto-delete implemented by the list management software would not force one to choose between auto-deletion and having a closed list. Although listserv has such a feature (and some swear by it), I find it of limited use because: 1. It acts immediately, and there are too many transient situations in which a host or user is thought of as unknown when in fact it is not. Ideally, there should be a programmable (on a list basis) number of consecutive days or bounces after which the user is auto-deleted (yes, I know this means a per-subscriber count field, and some way of resetting it once the bounces stop). One could set this to 0, if one wanted (immediate action), but I'd probably set it to 1 day (i.e., if the error condition persists for two consecutive days), and lower-volume lists may well be willing to give it a few days more to clear. 2. It only handles a small fraction of the bounces, in particular not the "Cannot send message for n days" variety, which is among the most frequent and annoying. This is not really within the control of the software as much, because of the plethora of formats in which this message may appear--that's where the standard error message format comes in. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Mon May 1 14:57:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA13015 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 1995 14:09:19 -0700 Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA12993 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 14:09:02 -0700 Message-Id: <199505012109.OAA12993@miles.greatcircle.com> To: merchant@anuxv.att.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 17:07:31 EDT Subject: Re: Unsubscription bounces - sites sending unsubsription commands instead of ... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think the efforts should be concentrated in making error messages > in a standard format that is easier for a machine to parse (perhaps with > numeric codes, etc.). Then it will be relatively simple for the *list > management software* to auto-delete (if so enabled) when a bounce > arrives to the owner-listname address. The IETF Notifications Working Group has been working on just this thing exactly. There are several Internet Drafts that should soon have a last call for moving to Proposed Standard status. There are standard formats for successful delivery, failure to deliver, and delayed delivery notification messages. It's also possible to specify in ESMTP options exactly what notifications the sender would like to receive. So it would be possible, for example, to request failure notifications, but no delay notifications, or failure notifications for only one message per list per day. I can provide refeences to the Internet Drafts for anyone interested. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 4265 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV Postmaster for CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, WEB.NIH.GOV, NIH3PLUS List owner for PCIP, SNSTCP-L, and TN3270E, all @LIST.NIH.GOV From list-managers-owner Mon May 1 15:09:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA13976 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 1 May 1995 14:39:40 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA13963 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 14:39:34 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id RAA01811; Mon, 1 May 1995 17:36:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199505012136.RAA01811@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Unsubscription bounces - sites sending unsubsription commands instead of ... In-reply-to: Your message of "01 May 1995 11:40:00 EDT." <9505011558.AA12723@ig1.att.att.com> Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 17:36:17 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >How do you folks feel about sites trying to send automatic > >unsu**cription commands instead of delivery failure > >notifications when bouncing list mail because of non-existent > >users? A future paradise for list-managers or more heat to the > >usual purgatory of list management? > > I think the efforts should be concentrated in making error messages > in a standard format that is easier for a machine to parse (perhaps with > numeric codes, etc.). Then it will be relatively simple for the *list > management software* to auto-delete (if so enabled) when a bounce > arrives to the owner-listname address. The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) is defining standards for delivery and nondelivery reports. They should be out as RFCs in a few months. If you want to see the current drafts, check out the following files. These are available for anonymous ftp from ds.internic.net, directory internet-drafts. draft-ietf-notary-mime-delivery-04.txt draft-ietf-notary-smtp-drpt-03.txt draft-ietf-notary-mime-report-01.txt draft-ietf-notary-status-01.txt Keith Moore From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 08:21:48 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA09237 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 07:51:27 -0700 Received: from netcom21.netcom.com (netcom21.netcom.com [192.100.81.135]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA09232 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 07:51:24 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom21.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id HAA25521; Tue, 2 May 1995 07:50:53 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 07:51:40 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: netiquette suggestions? Cc: Michael Sattler , Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Folks! Mike and I are busily writing the definitive book on Eudora 3.0, which includes, among many other things, whole chapters on email privacy/security (we're both also on the PGP 3.0 team) and other issues relating to the Internet in general. Right now, I'm working on the chapter in the book that discusses "netiquette," and wondered if any of you would care to comment on what you think are the most important things that netizens should: be aware of; not ever do; positively reinforce in others; etc. Your opinions, based on experience, are very important to us, and if any of you say anything _really_ clever, we might even want to quote you in the book (with your permission, of course...basic netiquette!). :) I'm also discussing how to properly subscribe and unsubscribe from mailing lists (LISTSERV and Majordomo), and how to _behave_ on them. If any of you have any comments, guidelines and/or pet peeves that you think should be mentioned, this is your chance to pipe up! :) Because of the focus on Eudora 3.0 (and Qualcomm's unofficial blessing) the book may be read by many of the 2-3 million Eudora users, so this may be a great opportunity for you to get your "message" out to lots of people. Please address your mail to: Thanks, All! dave ______________________________________________________________________________ Always avoid utilizing lengthy verbiage when truncated examples will suffice. From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 13:42:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA17450 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 13:12:40 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com (news5.crl.com [165.113.1.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA17436 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 13:12:22 -0700 Received: from nbi.UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA04624 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Tue, 2 May 1995 12:42:42 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 02 May 95 15:38:40 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, jgeorge@nbi.com Subject: Trademark infringement From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: <8gNH5c2w165w@nbi.com> Date: Tue, 02 May 95 15:18:18 EDT Organization: Another Girl, Another Planet Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. I'm a relatively new list manager, since March 9 of this year. I have gone through my trial by overquoting, irrelevancy and flame-posting but so far both me and my lists have survived. As of yesterday afternoon I have another concern, however. One of the mailing lists we house here at nbi.com is the Barbie-L mailing list. I know this seems like a complete bit of fluff, and for the most part it is; however collecting such dolls is a hobby for many people and we enjoy talking about it. Yesterday I received a piece of mail from the sysop of a certain BBS in the US. I shall quote only one part of it here, and then ask a question or two of you more experienced list-managers. -*begin inclusion*- ... [We are in the midst of developing a] project at Mattel. As you may already know, Barbie is a trademarked and copyrighted brandname, and is subject to closely protected by Mattel. We have worked very closely with them to establish an "official" Internet presence that accurately reflects the quality of the Barbie brandname. When a few weeks we will be unveiling, full Internet access to [BBS name], as well as an incredible array of WWW pages devoted to our hobby. We would like to work with you as well as others, [mention of certain list members], etc.. I'll be posting email to each of you in the next few weeks to determine how we can work with each other and still conform to the legalities of trademark and copyright and licensing laws. -*end inclusion*- For one thing, the feeling I got from this message is that he does not approve of any Mattel-related talk which does not fall under the aegis of his project (I have not yet confirmed that such a project is indeed forthcoming). I did not particularly like the references to trademark and copyright; as far as I know merely discussing a subject is not infringing the rights of anyone. If this were true every computer manufacturer or software publisher in the world would be in court every day. Another point I did not care for was "we will be posting email [sic] to each of you", meaning my list members. I have the WHO feature of Majordomo disabled for the privacy of my list members, in order to avoid advertising annoyances, such as this one may turn out to be. This BBS is by paid subscription only, and as such it seems that he is trying to use my list for marketing purposes. This is also a person who, in earlier paragraphs, stated his intention to "post a call for votes" and then create his own newsgroup - in the rec.* hierarchy. I have notified him of proper procedure in creating a newsgroup, and pointed him to various documents on the subject, but his response was "I've hired someone to learn all that for me, I don't have time." This tells me that this gentleman does not know custom and procedure, and really doesn't care all that much about it one way or the other. My overriding concern at the moment is that a) I not have to deal with this person as I did with Canter & Siegal lo these many moons ago (I was one of those lucky people who received threats of personal lawsuits) and that b) my list members are not bombarded with advertising or threats of lawsuits for merely breathing the word "Barbie". Any advice which is offered will be gratefully accepted. I would rather be pro-active in this instead of waiting and being forced to react. L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 15:39:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA22777 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:23:04 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA22766 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:22:53 -0700 Received: from cais.cais.com (cais.com [199.0.216.4]) by cais.cais.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA20046; Tue, 2 May 1995 18:23:17 -0400 Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 18:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Roger Burns Subject: Re: Trademark infringement To: Leigh Melton cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, jgeorge@nbi.com In-Reply-To: <8gNH5c2w165w@nbi.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not a lawyer, although I was a legislator for time. Having made that disclaimer, I'm sure you are quite safe about discussing a trademarked product by name on the nets. But what I'm curious about is -- is there any problem about you naming a list BARBIE-L if "Barbie" is a trademarked name? I think an off-net analogy would be if you were to create and publicize a local Star Trek fan club that was not sanctioned by Paramount Studios -- could Paramount sue you for trademark infringement because you used their trademark as the name of your club? I wonder. I have a guess that if Paramount had trademarked the Star Trek name for a fan club they had created IN ADDITION to their trademark for cinematic purposes, they might have a case. A question: did Mattel register "Barbie" as a trademark FOR THE NAME OF A CLUB or discussion group, or use the name for those purposes, BEFORE your BARBIE-L group was created and publicized? If you can show you were there first, I'd guess that they then wouldn't have a substantial case. But I'm not a lawyer and I don't purport to be offering legal advice. These are just personal musings. -- Roger Burns cfs-news@cais.cais.com From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 15:45:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA23059 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:32:24 -0700 Received: from han1.hannah.com (han1.hannah.com [192.232.16.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA23029 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:32:10 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 18:29:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Atkinson Subject: Re: Trademark infringement To: leigh@nbi.com Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, jgeorge@nbi.com Message-ID: <799453789.330000.FRANK@han1.hannah.com> In-Reply-To: <8gNH5c2w165w@nbi.com> Mail-System-Version: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > -*begin inclusion*- > >... [We are in the midst of developing a] project at Mattel. As you may >already know, Barbie is a trademarked and copyrighted brand name, and is >subject to closely protected by Mattel. We have worked very closely >with them to establish an "official" Internet presence that accurately ..... >determine how we can work with each other and still conform to the >legalities of trademark and copyright and licensing laws. > >From a non-attorney who has had some dealings with trademark and copyright. If you are charging for your list it might make a difference. If you are using the name Barbie for commercial gain is one thing, using it in a hobby context is another. Make sure this person is in fact working with Mattel, also make sure Mattel knows of your interest and userbase. Your contact may be trying a snow job. Its the owner of the trademark you need to communicate with. Mattel may well enforce their ownership and may or may not license anyone they would like to. If in fact Mattel has made the decision to have a single net presence that's their option. But one would also assume that you have a number of folks on your list who might want to engage in a small pr campaign to convince Mattel that there are other proper outlets for "Barbie" information. If anything Mattel will seek to avoid bad publicity. They won't want to see a "War in Barbie Land" on 60 Minutes. One result, worst case, may be you may not be able to call it Barbie, you may have to call your list Slim-plastic-lady. What the users talk about is free speech, the problem is using the name for profit or for promotional purposes. Most articles and ads in print now have a standard "DEC", "IBM", etc are trademarks of their respective owners." > >This is also a person who, in earlier paragraphs, stated his intention >to "post a call for votes" and then create his own newsgroup - in the >rec.* hierarchy. I have notified him of proper procedure in creating a >newsgroup, and pointed him to various documents on the subject, but his >response was "I've hired someone to learn all that for me, I don't have >time." This tells me that this gentleman does not know custom and >procedure, and really doesn't care all that much about it one way or the >other. His respect ( or lack of )for usenet protocols will hold little or no water in a trademark dispute. The protocol has no legal standing other than by the users of usenet, and I assume at some point we will have to decide who may and may not use the name Usenet. Don't confuse Internet netiquette with real law with real courts and real damages. It might not be a bad idea for a business to consider having a subsidiary manage lists to give some degree of liability protection. Welcome to cyber-world where many of the rules haven't been written. But in the interim count on a court applying traditional law. > >Any advice which is offered will be gratefully accepted. I would rather >be pro-active in this instead of waiting and being forced to react. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Frank Atkinson, DP Manager ! 614-228-3113 Voice ! ! Hannah News Service ( Rotunda Inc. ) ! 614-228-5897 Fax ! ! 16 E. Broad St. ! frank@han1.hannah.com ! ! Columbus, Ohio 43215 ! fratkins@freenet.columbus.oh ! ! http://han1.hannah.com/frank/frank.html ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 17:40:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA28634 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 17:21:22 -0700 Received: from server.indra.com (server.indra.com [204.144.142.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA28623 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 17:21:14 -0700 Received: from indra.com by server.indra.com (8.6.10/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA13532; Tue, 2 May 1995 18:21:27 -0600 Received: from [192.0.2.1] by indra.com (8.6.10/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA22003; Tue, 2 May 1995 18:21:23 -0600 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 18:21:29 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: mtn@indra.com (Amy Gahran) Subject: basic info? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. I'm a brand-new majordomo list manager. I've never done this before, and I'd like to know if anyone can recommend a good REALLY BASIC guide for majordomo list managers - this would include all the main commands I need to know, how to approve subscribtions for a private list, etc. I'd prefer to find out about guides that I can either download or access online, but I'd also welcome suggestions of conventionally publsihed material. Thanks! Amy Gahran From list-managers-owner Tue May 2 18:39:26 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA01181 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 2 May 1995 18:34:15 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com (news5.crl.com [165.113.1.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA01173 for ; Tue, 2 May 1995 18:34:11 -0700 Received: from nbi.UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA18175 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Tue, 2 May 1995 18:02:13 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 02 May 95 20:35:57 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Trademarks etc. From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 02 May 95 20:32:53 EDT Organization: Another Girl, Another Planet Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello. Thanks to everyone who responded to my original post. I have made two changes to the Barbie-L list as a result. 1. I have decided to change the name of the list at the earliest possible opportunity. I will leave it to my members to decide the name, as long as it does not contain any trademarked words. 2. I have added an "X-Disclaimer:" header to all posts to the list. This reads that Barbie is a trademark of Mattel etc etc. Thank you again for the advice. L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Wed May 3 05:09:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA23051 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 1995 05:00:51 -0700 Received: from qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV (qvarsx.er.usgs.gov [130.11.51.82]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA23041 for ; Wed, 3 May 1995 05:00:47 -0700 From: bobb3@fgdc.er.usgs.GOV Received: from fgdc (fgdc.er.usgs.gov [130.11.52.153]) by qvarsx.er.usgs.GOV (EMAIL 1.2) with SMTP id LAA05246 for ; Wed, 3 May 1995 11:58:28 GMT Received: by fgdc (5.4R2.01/200.1.1.4) id AA17527; Wed, 3 May 1995 07:57:24 -0400 Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 07:57:24 -0400 Message-Id: <9505031157.AA17527@fgdc> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Why? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My user base is very email intense and quite busy. To ease their task of reviewing a lot of mail, I have hacked the 'majordomo.pl' script to insert the $list name on the same line as the 'Subject', in the fashion; 'Subject: $list:' This allows them to cull out certain groups of mail and has been quite helpful, however lately this 'fix' hasn't been coming through as previously stated and the 'Sender:' has been 'list-owner@xxxx.xx.xx.xxx', instead of the real originator. Everything else seems normal, receipt and distribution wise. Anyone have any ideas ? Thanx........... From list-managers-owner Wed May 3 07:10:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA25969 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 1995 06:46:52 -0700 Received: from netcom21.netcom.com (netcom21.netcom.com [192.100.81.135]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA25963 for ; Wed, 3 May 1995 06:46:50 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom21.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id GAA06720; Wed, 3 May 1995 06:46:27 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 06:47:12 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Mac-based List Mgmt Software? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gals and Guys, This is off the topic of the Eudora 3.0/Email/Netiquette questions I asked the list yesterday (thatnks to everyone who replied and keep 'em coming to - they're great ideas), but it's something I've been wondering about recently, and this seems like the appropriate place to ask such a generic question: Does anyone here manage an Internet mailing list on a Mac server, and if so, what *software* do you use? Is there a flavor of LISTSERV or Majordomo or (?) that one can use to operate a mailing list on the Mac platform? If not, will there be soon, to anyone's knowledge? Brent? Someone? dave _________________________________________________________________________ "Give us the tools, and we will finish the job." -Churchill to Roosevelt From list-managers-owner Wed May 3 09:14:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA00216 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:50:18 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA00211 for ; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:50:15 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 May 95 11:53:48 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mac-based List Mgmt Software? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9505031153.aa10772@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto wrote: >Does anyone here manage an Internet mailing list on a Mac server, and if >so, what *software* do you use? Is there a flavor of LISTSERV or Majordomo >or (?) that one can use to operate a mailing list on the Mac platform? If >not, will there be soon, to anyone's knowledge? Brent? Someone? There will be soon. You can run mailing lists using MailShare, and StarNine is working on ListSTAR, which will automate subscriptions and deletions like listserv and majordomo. It should be available (according to their marketing blurbs) 3Q95. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed May 3 09:36:10 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA00347 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:58:25 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA00342; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:58:21 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 08:58:56 -0800 To: Dave Del Torto , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Mac-based List Mgmt Software? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:47 AM 5/3/95, Dave Del Torto wrote: >Gals and Guys, > >This is off the topic of the Eudora 3.0/Email/Netiquette questions I asked >the list yesterday (thatnks to everyone who replied and keep 'em coming to > - they're great ideas), but it's something I've >been wondering about recently, and this seems like the appropriate place to >ask such a generic question: > >Does anyone here manage an Internet mailing list on a Mac server, and if >so, what *software* do you use? Is there a flavor of LISTSERV or Majordomo >or (?) that one can use to operate a mailing list on the Mac platform? If >not, will there be soon, to anyone's knowledge? Brent? Someone? I have heard of a couple of packages specificly written for the Mac, but I don't recall their names; maybe somebody else can supply them. Porting Majordomo to the Mac would be a major task, I suspect. Majordomo pretty much assumes a UNIX-style file system, process structure, and I/O library. Unless you have that (or a good enough emulation of it; I think some folks have ported Majordomo to Windows NT, for instance), I expect porting to be pretty difficult. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Wed May 3 09:39:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA00300 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:55:49 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA00295; Wed, 3 May 1995 08:55:45 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 May 1995 08:56:20 -0800 To: bobb3@fgdc.er.usgs.GOV, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Why? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 7:57 AM 5/3/95, bobb3@fgdc.er.usgs.GOV wrote: > My user base is very email intense and quite busy. To ease their task > > of reviewing a lot of mail, I have hacked the 'majordomo.pl' script to >insert > > the $list name on the same line as the 'Subject', in the fashion; > > 'Subject: $list:' > > This allows them to cull out certain groups of mail and has been quite > > helpful, however lately this 'fix' hasn't been coming through as previously > > stated and the 'Sender:' has been 'list-owner@xxxx.xx.xx.xxx', instead of the > > real originator. Everything else seems normal, receipt and distribution wise. > > Anyone have any ideas ? Thanx........... List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM is NOT the place for Majordomo-specific questions. From the List-Managers information that all new subscribers receive: Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the documentation that came with the package to find out where the support list for that package is hosted. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Sun May 7 11:10:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA17450 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 7 May 1995 11:06:35 -0700 Received: from obelix.wu-wien.ac.at (obelix.wu-wien.ac.at [137.208.8.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA17445 for ; Sun, 7 May 1995 11:06:12 -0700 Received: by obelix.wu-wien.ac.at id AA25329 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 7 May 1995 20:06:29 +0200 From: Wolfgang Naber Message-Id: <199505071806.AA25329@obelix.wu-wien.ac.at> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 20:06:29 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Tue May 9 09:41:23 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA24021 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 1995 09:20:50 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA24013 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 09:20:47 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id JAA02710; Tue, 9 May 1995 09:20:27 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA25860; Tue, 9 May 95 09:21:18 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 09:21:18 -0700 Message-Id: <9505091621.AA25860@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Verification Request from a directory operator Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got the following this morning. Does anyone know anything about this directory, and is there any reason NOT to respond to this request? Thanks in advance for any advice. >Dear List Owner: > >GJR Software Products is under contract to maintain the List of Lists >database which is currently available on America Online. In order to >assure accuracy of the information provided by this resource, a summary of >the entry for the PCI-SIG list is presented below. Our records indicate >that this entry has not been verified in the past six months. Please take >a few minutes to review this information and make any appropriate >revisions. To submit changes, please forward the entire form back to us >clearly marking what you would like updated. If the information is >correct and requires no update, please send a message to confirm the entry >so that your entry will not be deleted under the assumption that it is no >longer valid. In all cases, please include the Comtex ID noted in this >summary or the list title shown as Short Title. > >If you are updating the Resources entry, please include fully qualified >URLs for FTP, Gopher, and WWW services. Please do not send back a copy of >your list's welcome file. This defeats the purpose of asking you, the >list owner, for what you think is pertinent to your entry. It also tends >to take your response out of the normal processing flow and can cause >significant delays in the update process. > >Updated information is usually live in 10 to 15 days from receipt. If you >have further questions, please feel free to contact me. > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Comtex ID: yiaf6azs >Short Title: PCI-SIG >Descriptive Title: The Peripheral Component Interconnet (PCI) Bus > Technology Discussion List > >Last Update: 102894 >List Owner: Alan Deikman >List Owner Address: alan@znyx.com > >Server Type: Personal Run or Other Server mechanism >Server address: Inapplicable or Undetermined > >To subscribe: > Send a politely worded request to pci-sig-request@znyx.com. > >To post to the list: > Information on where to send articles will be provided upon > subscribing. > >Digest Available: No >Moderated: No >Edited: No > >Usenet Echo: Not Applicable >Language: English > >Current Description: >PCI-SIG is for the discussion of technology and marketing of the PCI >(Peripheral Component Interconnect) bus, as defined by the PCI-SIG group. > > >Related resources (FTP, Gopher, archives, WWW): >None listed > > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >Gene J. Raymond gjrsoft@cais.com (primary) > GJRSoft@aol.com >GJR Software Products >PO Box 3416 Se habla espanol. >Merrifield, VA 22116-3416 On parle francais. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue May 9 11:41:43 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA27519 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 1995 11:26:05 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA27505 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 11:25:59 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0s8u6E-000FGHC; Tue, 9 May 95 13:33 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Verification Request from a directory operator To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:33:38 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9505091621.AA25860@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at May 9, 95 09:21:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 984 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman wrote, | I got the following this morning. Does anyone know anything about this | directory, and is there any reason NOT to respond to this request? I got a similar letter from Gene Raymond a few months ago. He and I had some personal correspondence about it, and the whole thing seems legitimate as far as I can tell. The point is to make sure that AOL subscribers get correct information about mailing lists (though you can even bring the water to the horse but you still can't make it drink). They start out with what they can cull from Marty Hoag's NEW-LIST mailing list and Stephanie da Silva's PAML and then seek verifications and updates from list managers. It can't hurt to respond. At the strongest you can say that you want your list not to be offered on AOL at all (a feeling I've had many times, not because of the reputation its customers have but because of its lousy mailer that addresses replies to the From_ line over either Reply-To: or From:). From list-managers-owner Tue May 9 11:48:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA27055 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 1995 11:11:31 -0700 Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (LEPOMIS.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.68.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA27050 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 11:11:27 -0700 Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32420; Tue, 9 May 1995 14:11:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 14:11:32 -0400 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9505091811.AA32420@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Follow the bouncing message... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've occasionally had problems with subscribers on one of my lists getting the permissions in their mail spool files zorched on their machine, causing multiple bounces to go to the sender of any message to the list or to them directly. I'm enclosing a sample message since I'm having the problem now. To make sure that I'm clear: the symptom is person A sends mail to person B. Person B's machine sends an error message back to person A. Then it sends another. And another. And another... I once had this problem at the beginning of a long weekend, and for 65 hours I received a copy of a bounced message approximately once every half hour. So far as I can tell, there is nothing I can do to prevent it other than to notify someone at the remote site begging them to fix it. Am I wrong? Is there anything we can do to see to it that the brain-dead mailers responsible for this sort of behavior get fixed? Is the brain-dead mailer in this case mine? I've always found one notification of a bounce more than sufficient... Here's the promised message (with names unchanged since I'm not concerned about protecting any of the parties involved): From listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu Tue May 9 13:43:04 1995 Received: from cyber3.servtech.com by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26943; Tue, 9 May 1995 13:43:04 -0400 From: listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu Message-Id: <9505091743.AA26943@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> Report-Version: 2 >To: lepomis.psych.upenn.edu!listproc To: lepomis.psych.upenn.edu!listproc Date: Tue May 9 17:43:32 GMT 1995 Original-Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:33:48 -0400 Original-Subject: SET DINOSAUR MAIL POSTPONE End-Of-Header: Not-Delivered-To: due to 12 Inability To Transfer ORIGINAL MESSAGE ATTACHED (rmail: Error # 15 'Cannot create lock file') En-Route-To: cernovog Content-Length: 770 Content-Type: text Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu by cyber3.servtech.com; Tue, 9 May 95 13:38 EDT Received: from LOCALHOST.UPENN.EDU by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35354; Tue, 9 May 1995 13:33:48 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 13:33:48 -0400 Message-Id: <9505091733.AA35354@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> Errors-To: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu Reply-To: listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu Content-Length: 28 Content-Type: text Sender: listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu From: listproc@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu To: cernovog@cyber3.servtech.com Subject: SET DINOSAUR MAIL POSTPONE X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Wow, does this actually work? MAIL mode reset to POSTPONE --- end included message -- MR -- -- Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Tue May 9 20:09:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA09620 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 1995 19:49:25 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id TAA09615 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 19:49:22 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA129014195; Tue, 9 May 1995 22:49:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 22:49:55 -0400 Message-Id: <950509224950_113153386@aol.com> To: dattier@wwa.com, alan@znyx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Verification Request from a directory operator Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-05-09 21:57:45 EDT, dattier@wwa.com writes: >They start out with what they can cull from Marty Hoag's NEW-LIST >mailing list and Stephanie da Silva's PAML and then seek verifications >and updates from list managers. Actually, we don't look at the PAML at all (as I've said innumerable times here before). We work with NEW-LIST, list owner references and member references. >It can't hurt to respond. At the strongest you can say that you want >your list not to be offered on AOL at all (a feeling I've had many >times, not because of the reputation its customers have but because of >its lousy mailer that addresses replies to the From_ line over either >Reply-To: or From:). Eh? When I replied to your post, it was addressed to dattier@wwa.com -- just as it was supposed to: >From list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Tue May 9 21:57:08 1995 [ ... ] >Message-Id: >From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) [ ... ] -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Tue May 9 20:39:17 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA09957 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 9 May 1995 20:13:45 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA09952 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 20:13:42 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0s92LJ-000FG5C; Tue, 9 May 95 22:21 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: AOL's Reply function and list-of-list resources To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 22:21:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <950509224950_113153386@aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at May 9, 95 10:49:55 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1308 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnell replied to my post, | Actually, we don't look at the PAML at all (as I've said innumerable times | here before). We work with NEW-LIST, list owner references and member | references. I thought that Gene Raymond's crew used the PAML as one of their resources in finding list managers to ask individually for authorization and verification. Of course, AOL does not carry the PAML itself, as both Mr. O'Donnell and Ms. da Silva have stated. I must apologize, because what I said can be misunder- stood to imply otherwise. | >( ... because of | >its lousy mailer that addresses replies to the From_ line over either | >Reply-To: or From:). | | Eh? When I replied to your post, it was addressed to dattier@wwa.com -- just | as it was supposed to ... It could be another of those differences among the various versions of the AOL front end. Do you remember the discussion of the Status display, Mr. O'Donnell? You insisted that no such thing existed until you found out that it was part of the front-end software for a different machine from the one you use. I definitely have had problems with AOL subscribers over this; quite a few would always send responses to the From_ address, whether the content should be a public reply to the submission address or a private reply to the author. From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 04:09:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA15775 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 03:51:45 -0700 Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA15769 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 03:51:37 -0700 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA06579 for ; Wed, 10 May 95 06:44:43 -0400 Received: from spud by jsoft.com (NX5.67e/NX3.02M) id AA09355; Wed, 10 May 95 00:41:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9505100541.AA09355@ jsoft.com> Received: by spud (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA00495; Wed, 10 May 95 00:41:56 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Wed, 10 May 95 00:41:53 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Looking for Barbie Reply-To: Gary Frederick References: <9505091621.AA25860@znyx.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Someone posted some info about a Barbie mailing list here (I think...) Could whoever is running the Barbie mailing list send me some mail? Thanks. Gary From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 09:09:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA20525 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 08:48:16 -0700 Received: from sunshine.eushc.org (sunshine.eushc.org [163.246.96.102]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA20520 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 08:48:13 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP id LAA22075; Wed, 10 May 1995 11:48:48 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id LAA08304; Wed, 10 May 1995 11:35:56 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 10 May 95 07:39:52 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL's Reply function and list-of-list resources From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 May 95 07:34:45 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) writes: > It could be another of those differences among the various versions of the > AOL front end. Do you remember the discussion of the Status display, Mr. > O'Donnell? You insisted that no such thing existed until you found out that > it was part of the front-end software for a different machine from the one > you use. > > I definitely have had problems with AOL subscribers over this; quite a few > would always send responses to the From_ address, whether the content should > be a public reply to the submission address or a private reply to the > author. I think AOL finally fixed this problem. I have a large number of AOL subscribers in my lists. Invariably postings made as replies used to come to the envelope From_ address. But this phenomenon has completely disappeared, so I assume that AOL has learnt how to deal with the headers. Some compuserve and delphi users are still sending mail to the From_ address, so I assume some of the front ends they use must do weird stuff. At least, AOL listmaster/s acknowledged my complaints once in a while. I hear nothing from Compuserve or Delphi. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 13:41:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA27908 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 13:11:29 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA27894 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 13:11:13 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0s9IDy-000FI7C; Wed, 10 May 95 15:19 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL's Reply function and list-of-list resources To: gess@knex.mind.org Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:19:08 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Gess Shankar" at May 10, 95 07:34:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1214 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar wrote, | I think AOL finally fixed this problem. I have a large number of AOL | subscribers in my lists. Invariably postings made as replies used to | come to the envelope From_ address. But this phenomenon has completely | disappeared, so I assume that AOL has learnt how to deal with the | headers. I wouldn't say that it has *completely* disappeared. It certainly has decreased on one of my lists in the last couple months. On the other it continues unabated. | Some compuserve and delphi users are still sending mail to the From_ | address, so I assume some of the front ends they use must do weird stuff. I've had no problem with Delphi or Prodigy users. There is one CIS customer on each of the two lists I run, so I can't make a blanket statement. One keeps submitting to -request but the other knows what the two addresses are for. With such a small sample to work from, I've been attributing the diffe- rence to their personalities. | At least, AOL listmaster/s acknowledged my complaints once in a while. | I hear nothing from Compuserve or Delphi. Now *that's* just about indisputable. It was hard enough hearing from them when I wrote within the system as their own customer. From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 14:24:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA29811 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 13:55:49 -0700 Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA29801 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 13:55:46 -0700 Received: (pjg@localhost) by urth (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA13346 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 16:56:23 -0400 Message-Id: <199505102056.QAA13346@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: sendmail delayed delivery notification too soon? Reply-To: Paul Graham Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:56:23 -0400 From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk do most people consider the default sendmail v8 delayed delivery notify time too short? on my workstation 10 minutes seems about right but a number of list managers think 8 hours is way too short. From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 15:10:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA01962 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 15:02:19 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA01957 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 15:02:17 -0700 Received: (from genie@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.10+PanixU1.0) id SAA15058; Wed, 10 May 1995 18:02:38 -0400 From: Andy Finkenstadt Message-Id: <199505102202.SAA15058@panix.com> Subject: Re: AOL's Reply function and list-of-list resources To: gess@knex.mind.org Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 18:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Gess Shankar" at May 10, 95 07:34:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 859 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I definitely have had problems with AOL subscribers over this; quite a few > > would always send responses to the From_ address, whether the content should > > be a public reply to the submission address or a private reply to the > > author. > > I think AOL finally fixed this problem. I have a large number of AOL > subscribers in my lists. Invariably postings made as replies used to > come to the envelope From_ address. But this phenomenon has completely > disappeared, so I assume that AOL has learnt how to deal with the > headers. Microsoft has the same problem. I assume they still use Microsoft Mail internally, and every time they reply to one of my lists, I have to hand-forward it to the list. :( Andy -- andy@genie.geis.com | Andy Finkenstadt, GEnie Sysop, GEnie Postmaster postmaster@genie.com | personal account: genie@panix.com From list-managers-owner Wed May 10 15:12:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA01472 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 10 May 1995 14:51:05 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA01467 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 14:51:02 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id QAA17748; Wed, 10 May 1995 16:51:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199505102151.QAA17748@mcs.anl.gov> To: Paul Graham cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: sendmail delayed delivery notification too soon? X-Request-Do: take X-Request-Do: Resolve In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 May 1995 16:56:23 EDT." <199505102056.QAA13346@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 16:51:35 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On my machine doing most of the mailing list stuff, I think that 10 minutes is way to short. So is 8 hours for that matter. I have it disabled. If it's mailing list stuff I really don't care that it's delayed in getting to a some poeple out of the several K in the list. It's going to depend on the list and what your subscriber base looks like to determine what you want for notification. If your list is "deans@buffalo.edu" and the main purpose of the list is for calling meetings in 15 minutes, you need to set things accordingly. If the list is something like "civil-war-in-review", then you probably don't need to be too concerned if someone doesn't get it this week. Now, with that said, I bounce people that cause delay notification from remote sites. I also bounce them for the old "uucp can't contact site for xx hours, still trying" messages. I do not like bounce traffic of any kind. I do not think these messages are necessary in a low priority mailing list. Personal email, and high priority lists are a different matter. If someone subscibes to one of my mailing lists from your site, and he is forwarding from there to someplace else, and that site can't be reached for what you deem is reasonable and "delayed delivery notify" me that it's not getting though, after a few of those, I'll bounce the person from my list. If I don't, I wind up getting several meg of mail a day in stupid bounce traffic. Let the user subscribe to the list directly in a way that my machine does the timeout, not yours. It's easier on the net, and my mail spool. Also since I bounce them with notification that they have a problem, many times they investigate and fix something that is broken. Gene Rackow email: rackow@mcs.anl.gov Math & Computer Science voice: 708-252-7126 Argonne National Lab FAX: 708-252-5986 9700 S. Cass Ave. / Argonne, IL 60439 Paul Graham made the following keystrokes: >do most people consider the default sendmail v8 delayed delivery notify >time too short? on my workstation 10 minutes seems about right but a >number of list managers think 8 hours is way too short. > From list-managers-owner Thu May 11 05:39:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA15728 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 1995 05:30:07 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA15723 for ; Thu, 11 May 1995 05:30:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 May 95 8:34:05 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: sendmail delayed delivery notification too soon? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9505110834.aa26849@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Graham wrote: >do most people consider the default sendmail v8 delayed delivery notify >time too short? on my workstation 10 minutes seems about right but a >number of list managers think 8 hours is way too short. I agree. Anything less than 12 hours is only an irritation to me. Actually, the things are an irritation period (but I figger my chances of getting it turned off outright are slim to none, so I ask to have them increased to 12 hours). Why should I care? Bounce it when it times out, (which it rarely does) but otherwise, leave me alone. I have enough mail to read:-} Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu May 11 11:39:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA24329 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 11 May 1995 11:13:44 -0700 Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk (livbird.liv.ac.uk [138.253.31.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA24321 for ; Thu, 11 May 1995 11:13:40 -0700 Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk via Local channel id <11370-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Thu, 11 May 1995 19:13:36 +0100 Subject: Re: sendmail delayed delivery notification too soon? To: pjg@acsu.buffalo.edu Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 19:13:33 +0100 (BST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199505102056.QAA13346@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Paul Graham" at May 10, 95 04:56:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 466 From: Alan Thew Message-ID: <"liverbird.li:113770:950511181352"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the last mail, Paul Graham wrote: > > do most people consider the default sendmail v8 delayed delivery notify > time too short? on my workstation 10 minutes seems about right but a > number of list managers think 8 hours is way too short. > We generate them after 3 days which may seem like too long..... -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 07:43:42 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA06988 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 07:24:09 -0700 Received: from dove.cf.ac.uk (dove.cf.ac.uk [131.251.0.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA06983 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 07:24:03 -0700 Received: from thorarchive.cf.ac.uk by dove.cf.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <16527-0@dove.cf.ac.uk>; Mon, 15 May 1995 15:23:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:21:59 +0100 (BST) From: Andrew Cormack Reply-To: Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Purpose of digests ? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm a little confused about the purpose of a digest list. Perhaps someone can shed a bit of light ? It strikes me that a digest should be a periodic update to inform readers of the traffic on a given list. Then, if a particular article looks interesting, based on subject/author/whatever the user can retrieve the relevant archive file to get the full text of the message. To achieve this a digest should contain only a summary of each message, perhaps the date, subject and sender fields. A user susbscribed to a digest list thus has a reduced amount of e-mail to read, but does not miss out on anything, provided the other correspondents use subjects sensibly. However this is *not* the type of digest implemented by Majordomo or, as far as I am aware, Listserv. With these systems, each digest contains all the texts of all the messages during the period, *plus* a list of subjects. The reader of digest list thus gets an even larger hit on their mailbox than the reader of the un-digestified list though at longer intervals. Are there any systems which provide the sort of digest I have described, or is the MD/listserv type all-pervading ? Is this what users want ? Andrew -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Andrew Cormack | email: cormack@cardiff.ac.uk | | Information Systems Support, | snail: 40/41 Park Place, Cardiff | | postmaster and webmaster | | | University of Wales, Cardiff | | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 08:14:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA07919 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 07:59:28 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA07913 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 07:59:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199505151459.HAA07913@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3221; Mon, 15 May 95 16:54:48 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 8955; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:54:47 +0200 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 16:52:09 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk, Andrew Cormack In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 May 1995 15:21:59 +0100 (BST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 15 May 1995 15:21:59 +0100 (BST) Andrew Cormack said: >It strikes me that a digest should be a periodic update to inform >readers of the traffic on a given list. LISTSERV provides this function under the name of "INDEX" (ie SET XYZ-L INDEX). In Internet parlance, a "digest" is what you have described, the messages of the day/week/whatever. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 08:18:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA08235 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 08:10:58 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com (uswat.advtech.uswest.com [130.13.16.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA08208 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 08:10:53 -0700 Received: from centhub (centhub.mnet.uswest.com [151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23109; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:10:38 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA24417; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:09:35 -0600 Received: by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA02530; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:09:05 -0600 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 09:09:05 -0600 From: frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com (Frank R. Jones) Message-Id: <9505151509.AA02530@lws489.salttn> To: Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, frjones@sa In-Reply-To: (message from Andrew Cormack on Mon, 15 May 1995 15:21:59 +0100 (BST)) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk andrew cromack wrote: => It strikes me that a digest should be a periodic update to inform readers => of the traffic on a given list. Then, if a particular article looks => interesting, based on subject/author/whatever the user can retrieve the => relevant archive file to get the full text of the message. To achieve => this a digest should contain only a summary of each message, perhaps the => date, subject and sender fields. A user susbscribed to a digest list => thus has a reduced amount of e-mail to read, but does not miss out on Then this should be called a summary, or compendium, not a digest. The point as *I* understand it (meaning my opinion) is that the purpose of a digest is not so much to reduce the amount of email (in bytes) but the number of mailings. It is better to receive one large mailing rather than 50+ individual mailings, cluttering up your mailbox. => anything, provided the other correspondents use subjects sensibly. this is a very LARGE caveat, as this rarely happens in a thread. => However this is *not* the type of digest implemented by Majordomo or, as => far as I am aware, Listserv. With these systems, each digest contains all => the texts of all the messages during the period, *plus* a list of => subjects. The reader of digest list thus gets an even larger hit on their => mailbox than the reader of the un-digestified list though at longer => intervals. => Are there any systems which provide the sort of digest I have described, => or is the MD/listserv type all-pervading ? Not to my knowledge. it wouldn't be hard to to create a summary from the digest code, since the summary is already there. => Is this what users want ? one assumes this question is answerable? Again in my experience, digested mail is preferable to burst/single messages, in that other mail doesn't get lost in the flurry of several mailing list's messages coming in sproadically. fj.. =========================================================================== Franklin R. Jones Unix OS & Network Specialist Paranet, Inc. consultant to: USWest Service Assurance 7900 E. Union Ave,Suite 1100 frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com Denver, Colorado 80237 =========================================================================== From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 09:43:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA10459 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:27:22 -0700 Received: from leland.Stanford.EDU (leland.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.69]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA10454 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:27:19 -0700 Received: from mailhub1.Stanford.EDU (mailhub1.Stanford.EDU [36.21.0.79]) by leland.Stanford.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA01038 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:27:05 -0700 Received: from [36.8.0.140] (Cervantes.Stanford.EDU [36.8.0.140]) by mailhub1.Stanford.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA12354 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:27:03 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 09:27:03 -0700 X-Sender: wbarr@popserver.stanford.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: wbarr@leland.stanford.edu (William P. Barr) Subject: approve script in perl for mh Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I vaguely recall someone mentioning that there was an approve script, written in perl for users of mh. Would some kind soul please point me in the right direction? In advance, thanks for your time. Bill -- William Barr, Stanford Computer Forum phone: 415-723-6632 ERL 448/450, Stanford, CA 94305-4055 fax: 415-725-7398 wbarr@leland.stanford.edu finger wbarr@cs.stanford.edu for PGP listowner: html-authors-guild@list.stanford.edu "My opinions are mine and only mine." From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 09:58:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA10224 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:16:59 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA10218 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 09:16:55 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 May 95 12:18:07 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9505151218.aa12261@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Andrew Cormack: >It strikes me that a digest should be a periodic update to inform readers >of the traffic on a given list. Then, if a particular article looks >interesting, based on subject/author/whatever the user can retrieve the >relevant archive file to get the full text of the message. To achieve >this a digest should contain only a summary of each message, perhaps the >date, subject and sender fields. Nope. >each digest contains all >the texts of all the messages during the period, *plus* a list of >subjects. Yep. >Are there any systems which provide the sort of digest I have described, >or is the MD/listserv type all-pervading ? Is this what users want ? Nope. Nope. A digest simply contains the text and header of more than one email msg, wrapped into a single msg. It allows two things: a) reduction of the number of SMTP connections your list server must make and b) reduction of the number of individual mail msgs hitting recipients' mailboxes (but not the size of their mailboxes, for reasons you've noted). For further info, check RFC 1153: Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 15:05:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA01242 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 14:42:45 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA01123 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 14:41:27 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950507) id NAA14678; Mon, 15 May 1995 13:02:16 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sB6BN-000FGCC; Mon, 15 May 95 14:52 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 14:52:01 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Andrew Cormack" at May 15, 95 03:21:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 979 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Andrew Cormack made the following comment about digests: | The reader of digest list thus gets an even larger hit on their | mailbox than the reader of the un-digestified list though at longer | intervals. Not true. First, there are fewer SMTP connections if a digest has at least two articles; Second, if the digest issue contains at least three articles, the reduction in mail header text more than compensates for the addition of a table of contents; Third, on some systems users are limited in the number of mail items they may receive or store as well as (or instead of) by the byte count of their mailboxes, and digests help them stay under quota; Fourth, on systems that charge for receiving email by the byte count of the incoming letter, invariably there is a block size, and you pay for whole blocks, the final fractional block of the letter costing you the same as a whole one. For such subscribers, digests are a godsend because fewer fractions are wasted. From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 15:31:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA02862 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 15:17:35 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA02850 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 15:17:06 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sB8Of-000213C; Mon, 15 May 95 15:13 PDT Message-Id: To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 15 May 1995 14:52:01 -0500. Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:13:47 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Fourth, on systems that charge for receiving email by the byte count of the > incoming letter, invariably there is a block size, and you pay for whole > blocks, the final fractional block of the letter costing you the same as > a whole one. For such subscribers, digests are a godsend because fewer > fractions are wasted. On the other hand, they make it impossible to sort or filter by topic, poster or thread. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 16:33:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA05088 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:14:00 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA05070 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:13:53 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sB9Hh-00021oC; Mon, 15 May 95 16:10 PDT Message-Id: To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? In-reply-to: Your message of Mon, 15 May 1995 18:11:09 -0500. Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 16:10:43 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > | On the other hand, [digests] make it impossible to sort or filter by topic, > | poster or thread. > > If the subscriber's site offers some text and mail utilities -- or a compiler > so that the user can provide for himself or herself -- then he or she can > burst digest issues into their component messages and sort or filter them. Does Eudora burst digests? I dunno. It can sort and filter. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 16:36:38 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA04982 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:11:43 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA04977 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:11:38 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sB9I6-000FGqC; Mon, 15 May 95 18:11 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: rogerk@unpc.queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:11:09 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Roger B.A. Klorese" at May 15, 95 03:13:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 650 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Roger B. A. Klorese wrote, | On the other hand, [digests] make it impossible to sort or filter by topic, | poster or thread. If the subscriber's site offers some text and mail utilities -- or a compiler so that the user can provide for himself or herself -- then he or she can burst digest issues into their component messages and sort or filter them. On the other hand, if the subscriber's site lacks basic mail handling tools, it probably is impossible to sort or filter individual messages from a list by topic, poster, or thread there either. All that said, I hate digests myself and prefer to have my own subscriptions in reflector format. From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 16:40:49 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA05145 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:15:49 -0700 Received: from camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu [137.229.18.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA05140 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 16:15:37 -0700 Received: by camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA04690; Mon, 15 May 95 15:15:12 -0800 From: John W Redelfs Message-Id: <9505152315.AA04690@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu> Subject: Email List Services Wanted To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, bit-listserv-lstsrv-l@cs.utexas.edu Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 15:15:11 -0800 (GMT-9:00) Cc: lwb@AvalonCorp.com (Lance Bledsoe), jmg@lightside.com (J. Michael George) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1338 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Email List Services Wanted Dear Service Provider, I am the listowner of a two year old email list currently running under Majordomo 1.93 on a remote server. It is a "closed" list of about 150 subscribers who share my religious beliefs. We generate about 500 megs of mail per month sent from the server to my subscribers. The list is archived daily, and the archives are accessible on the World Wide Web, by GOPHER and by anonymous FTP. My service provider has just informed me that because the email volume has grown beyond what he originally anticipated, my monthly charge for hosting the list will increase from the current twenty dollars per month to fifty dollars per month. While I have been happy with the services I have received, I am financially unable to more than double my monthly expenses. Running this list has been a hobby, not a business. Therefore I am doing some price shopping. 1) Can you, or do you know of anyone who can provide me with this package of services? 2) What would such a package cost me? I might add that my current provider has a fast T1 Internet connection. A slower machine and connection would be satisfactory, but obviously a fast connection is better. Thankyou for your consideration. Yours truly, John W. Redelfs, Listowner of ZION tsjwr@camelot.acf-lab.alaska.edu, 907-225-8897 From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 18:01:16 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA07484 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:39:44 -0700 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA07479 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:39:42 -0700 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA21628; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:38:25 -0700 Received: from DialupEudora (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA10987; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:38:19 -0700 X-Sender: kr@pop.shell.portal.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: shell\r\elogin:, 15 May 1995 17:38:56 -0800 To: frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com (Frank R. Jones), Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk From: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, sa!frjones@uunet.uu.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:09 5/15/95, Frank R. Jones wrote: > Again in my experience, digested mail is preferable to >burst/single messages, in that other mail doesn't get lost in the >flurry of several mailing list's messages coming in sproadically. What about filtering and sorting ? I use Eudora as a mail reader, and I have a separate mailbox for each mailing list I am subscribed to. Works great. The big drawback of digests (which should have been called "accumulations", or something like that) is that it is next to impossible to tear apart the digest again, in order to respond to individual messages (which I often want to do). At least it is impossible in Eudora. You have to manually cut & paste. I believe there is something called "undigestify" in RMAIL in Emacs, but I have not ever used it. For that to reliably work would require all digests to be in exactly the same format, so that it is easy to parse. This might be problem. Many Greetings =================================================================== Markus Krummenacker e-mail: kr@nanothinc.com Director of Research infobot: info@nanothinc.com Nanothinc, A California Corporation Phone: (415) 202-9969 1797 Union Street FAX: (415) 202-9975 San Francisco, CA 94123 URL: http://www.nanothinc.com/ From list-managers-owner Mon May 15 19:01:19 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA08589 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 15 May 1995 19:00:58 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA08581 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 19:00:46 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sBBEW-000237C; Mon, 15 May 95 18:15 PDT Message-Id: To: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) cc: frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com (Frank R. Jones), Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk, list-managers@greatcircle.com, sa!frjones@uunet.uu.net Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? In-reply-to: Your message of shell\r\elogin:, 15 May 1995 17:38:56 -0800 . Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:10:19 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I believe there is something called "undigestify" in RMAIL in > Emacs, but I have not ever used it. For that to reliably work would require > all digests to be in exactly the same format, so that it is easy to parse. > This might be problem. There is an RFC for digests; conforming digests (which LISTSERV, LISTPROC and Majordomo's "digest" all produce) work well with undigestifiers. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Tue May 16 00:31:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA12890 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 1995 00:23:55 -0700 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA07464 for ; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:39:33 -0700 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA21638; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:38:31 -0700 Received: from DialupEudora (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id RAA11002; Mon, 15 May 1995 17:38:27 -0700 X-Sender: kr@pop.shell.portal.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: shell\r\elogin:, 15 May 1995 17:39:02 -0800 To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin), Cormack@cardiff.ac.uk From: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 14:52 5/15/95, David W. Tamkin wrote: >Third, on some systems users are limited in the number of mail items they >may receive or store as well as (or instead of) by the byte count of their >mailboxes, and digests help them stay under quota; > >Fourth, on systems that charge for receiving email by the byte count of the >incoming letter, invariably there is a block size, and you pay for whole >blocks, the final fractional block of the letter costing you the same as >a whole one. For such subscribers, digests are a godsend because fewer >fractions are wasted. Thanx for telling us about these two points. The first time I have heard about these issues. Sounds pretty brain-dead to me. :-) Does anybody have an idea (or actual data) regarding how large a fraction of Internet users have to suffer under such conditions ? Many Greetings =================================================================== Markus Krummenacker e-mail: kr@nanothinc.com Director of Research infobot: info@nanothinc.com Nanothinc, A California Corporation Phone: (415) 202-9969 1797 Union Street FAX: (415) 202-9975 San Francisco, CA 94123 URL: http://www.nanothinc.com/ From list-managers-owner Tue May 16 11:01:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA23717 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 1995 10:33:35 -0700 Received: from freeside.fc.net (freeside.fc.net [198.6.198.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA23712 for ; Tue, 16 May 1995 10:33:31 -0700 Received: (from kevintx@localhost) by freeside.fc.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) id MAA27309; Tue, 16 May 1995 12:34:19 -0500 From: Kevin at Freeside Support Message-Id: <199505161734.MAA27309@freeside.fc.net> Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 12:34:18 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "kr" at May 16, 95 02:44:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 555 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Thanx for telling us about these two points. The first time I have heard > about these issues. Sounds pretty brain-dead to me. :-) > > Does anybody have an idea (or actual data) regarding how large a fraction > of Internet users have to suffer under such conditions ? All of CompuServe's users for one (charged for each piece of mail received).. maybe some other big commercial services too.. -- kevintx@fc.net support@fc.net Freeside Communications 512-339-6094 (providing quality Internet access and services in beautiful Austin, Texas) From list-managers-owner Tue May 16 12:02:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA25334 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 1995 11:38:48 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA25329 for ; Tue, 16 May 1995 11:38:43 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sBRVt-000FGCC; Tue, 16 May 95 13:38 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 13:38:37 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "kr" at May 16, 95 03:01:36 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1086 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Markus Krummenacker wrote, K> At 14:52 5/15/95, David W. Tamkin wrote: T> Third, on some systems users are limited in the number of mail items they T> may receive or store as well as (or instead of) by the byte count of their T> mailboxes, and digests help them stay under quota; T> T> Fourth, on systems that charge for receiving email by the byte count of the T> incoming letter, invariably there is a block size, and you pay for whole T> blocks, the final fractional block of the letter costing you the same as T> a whole one. For such subscribers, digests are a godsend because fewer T> fractions are wasted. K> Thanx for telling us about these two points. The first time I have heard K> about these issues. Sounds pretty brain-dead to me. :-) K> K> Does anybody have an idea (or actual data) regarding how large a fraction K> of Internet users have to suffer under such conditions ? I believe that "third" applies to America OnLine [the "as well as" phrase but not the "instead of" alternative]. "Fourth" is the case for CompuServe customers billed on their Standard Plan. From list-managers-owner Tue May 16 23:31:23 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA08737 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 16 May 1995 23:14:02 -0700 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id XAA08732 for ; Tue, 16 May 1995 23:13:59 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA082061221; Wed, 17 May 1995 02:13:41 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 02:13:41 -0400 Message-Id: <950517021338_121545697@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-05-16 19:45:08 EDT, dattier@wwa.com writes: (T> refers to statements made by David W. Tamkin on 15 May 1995) T> Third, on some systems users are limited in the number of mail items they T> may receive or store as well as (or instead of) by the byte count of their T> mailboxes, and digests help them stay under quota; >I believe that "third" applies to America OnLine [the "as well as" >phrase but not the "instead of" alternative]. America Online members are limited to 550 pieces of mail contained on our service at any given time; the maximum size of any single inbound piece(*) is 1Mb. We do not charge members for e-mail above and beyond the connect-time charge and monthly fee. Additionally, Windows and Macintosh AOL software users have the ability to regularly retrieve all mail stored on the AOL host system to their local hard drive, where they are limited solely by available space. Members can compose new mail while offline and schedule the e-mail for later sending. It should also be noted that America Online is not the only Internet-connected system which limits the number of e-mail messages a user can maintain on the host system. Just from my own experiences as a list owner, VAXen and FreeNets seem to commonly impose limits (usually via a general storage quota). (* Note: due to present client limitations, large pieces of mail are broken up internally. A 1Mb message would represent 34 "chunks" of mail at ~31k per "chunk".) -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 05:01:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA14092 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 04:33:51 -0700 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com (nova.unix.portal.com [156.151.1.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA14087 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 04:33:48 -0700 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id EAA05090; Wed, 17 May 1995 04:32:49 -0700 Received: from DialupEudora (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with SMTP id EAA01425; Wed, 17 May 1995 04:32:45 -0700 X-Sender: kr@pop.shell.portal.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: \p\r\r\e%, 17 May 1995 04:33:21 -0800 To: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: kr@shell.portal.com (kr) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:13 5/17/95, PMDAtropos@aol.com wrote: >(* Note: due to present client limitations, large pieces of mail are broken >up internally. A 1Mb message would represent 34 "chunks" of mail at ~31k per >"chunk".) BTW, this is an extreme inconvenience. This represents a constant problem with AOL customers which I happen to deal with. Passing manuscripts this way is very painful. Do you happen to have any information about what the plans of AOL are to lift this limitation ? Many Greetings =================================================================== Markus Krummenacker e-mail: kr@nanothinc.com Director of Research infobot: info@nanothinc.com Nanothinc, A California Corporation Phone: (415) 202-9969 1797 Union Street FAX: (415) 202-9975 San Francisco, CA 94123 URL: http://www.nanothinc.com/ From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 06:31:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA15720 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 06:23:06 -0700 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA15712 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 06:23:03 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA109176965; Wed, 17 May 1995 09:22:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 09:22:45 -0400 Message-Id: <950517092243_121733800@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-05-17 07:33:43 EDT, kr@shell.portal.com writes: >BTW, this is an extreme inconvenience. This represents a constant problem >with AOL customers which I happen to deal with. Passing manuscripts this >way is very painful. I understand how you feel, believe me. >Do you happen to have any information about what the plans of AOL are to >lift this limitation ? I forsee two solutions, both of which are probably going to happen; unfortunately, I don't have details on *when*. The first is that the 31k textbox limitation will go away, the second is that MIME attachments will be supported. A combination of both changes would probably solve everyone's problems. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 09:32:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA19568 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 09:12:31 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA19563 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 09:12:26 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sBlhS-000FGqC; Wed, 17 May 95 11:11 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 11:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <950517021338_121545697@aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at May 17, 95 02:13:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 777 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnell wrote, | It should also be noted that America Online is not the only | Internet-connected system which limits the number of e-mail messages a user | can maintain on the host system. Just from my own experiences as a list | owner, VAXen and FreeNets seem to commonly impose limits (usually via a | general storage quota). AOL is certainly not the only one that limits the amount of mail that may be stored. I named it as the only one *that*I*know*of* where the number of pieces of mail counts as well as the total size of all stored mail, where two 1K letters use up more of your quota than one 2K letter does. There may well be others, but I can't name any. That's rather different from counting one's mail spool in one's total disk usage (e.g., Netcom). From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 11:32:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23123 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 11:15:48 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA23118 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 11:15:45 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA032474526; Wed, 17 May 1995 14:15:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:15:26 -0400 Message-Id: <950517141524_122036033@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-05-17 12:12:22 EDT, dattier@wwa.com writes: >[ ... ] I named it as the only one *that*I*know*of* where the number of >pieces of mail counts as well as the total size of all stored mail, where two >1K letters use up more of your quota than one 2K letter does. The problem is, though: that's not true. I could have 550 pieces of 31k messages and it makes no more difference than if I have 550 pieces of 1k messages, or 550 pieces of mail with 1M file attachments. All we quota on is number of messages. Size is irrelevant. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 12:02:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23866 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 11:41:36 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA23861 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 11:41:33 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950507) id LAA20133; Wed, 17 May 1995 11:39:28 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sBo0l-000FGtC; Wed, 17 May 95 13:39 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? To: rogerk@unpc.queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:39:59 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Roger B.A. Klorese" at May 15, 95 04:10:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1604 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When I wrote, T> If the subscriber's site offers some text and mail utilities -- or a T> compiler so that the user can provide for himself or herself -- then he T> or she can burst digest issues into their component messages and sort or T> filter them. Roger Klorese responded, K> Does Eudora burst digests? I dunno. It can sort and filter. Whoa there, Stoney. Bringing up Eudora changes the subject completely. Somebody running Eudora is working at his or her own computer, not on a user account of a system controlled by someone else (like an employer, a school, or a shell access provider). There are two HUGE differences from the situa- tion of receiving your mail on a site where someone else is the boss: 1. Nobody else enforces a mail storage quota on the Eudora user -- unless he or she lets mail accumulate at his or her provider for a long time without dialing in to download it. Once it's downloaded to the Eudora user's com- puter, he or she can let it stick around until all of his or her disks are crammed with undeleted mail if that's what he or she wants. A Eudora user who prefers separate envelopes to digest format is not under any con- straint to go against that preference and is free to subscribe to all lists in reflector mode, so there would be digests to burst only for lists that are available solely in digest form. 2. No sysadmin tells a Eudora user what utilities he or she is allowed to run on his or her own machine. If Eudora doesn't have digest bursting built in, the Eudora user is free to burst digests with some other tool. From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 13:02:47 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25773 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 12:58:41 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA25766 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 12:58:25 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sBpEq-000FH8C; Wed, 17 May 95 14:58 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: AOL mail quotas To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 14:58:36 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <950517141524_122036033@aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at May 17, 95 02:15:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1070 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David O'Donnell wrote, [I had said,] | >[On AOL] two | >1K letters use up more of your quota than one 2K letter does. | | The problem is, though: that's not true. I could have 550 pieces of 31k | messages and it makes no more difference than if I have 550 pieces of 1k | messages, or 550 pieces of mail with 1M file attachments. All we quota on is | number of messages. Size is irrelevant. Then, Mr. O'Donnell, it *is* true: two letters that each occupy one kilobyte do use up more of an AOL customer's disk quota than does one letter that is two kilobytes long. If one is allowed 550 stored letters at a time without size as a factor, two short reminders take up 1/275 of that allotment but one tome uses only 1/550. That's all the more reason that an AOL customer who subscribes to several active lists would want to receive those lists in digest format. This thread started when someone opined that he or she saw no earthly value in the common digest format and wanted to know why such a concept had ever been proposed, much less how it could have caught on. From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 13:10:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25255 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 12:36:33 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA25245 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 12:36:26 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sBoqG-0002imC; Wed, 17 May 95 12:33 PDT Message-Id: To: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Purpose of digests ? In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 17 May 1995 13:39:59 -0500. Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 12:33:11 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > When I wrote, > > T> If the subscriber's site offers some text and mail utilities -- or a > T> compiler so that the user can provide for himself or herself -- then he > T> or she can burst digest issues into their component messages and sort or > T> filter them. > > Roger Klorese responded, > > K> Does Eudora burst digests? I dunno. It can sort and filter. > > Whoa there, Stoney. Bringing up Eudora changes the subject completely. Your argument ignores the fact that most users of Eudora these days *are* constrained in some way by their employer, school, or service provider -- mail is not directly delivered to them, after all, so service limitations at their POP server apply. In addition, while users may be "free" to use some other digest-burster, odds are pretty good that they don't have access to one, or at least, to one that can burst a digest that's been POP-loaded from their server into a Eudora folder. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 16:35:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA01708 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 16:11:07 -0700 Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA01703 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 16:11:04 -0700 Received: (pjg@localhost) by urth (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id TAA07354 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 19:10:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199505172310.TAA07354@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: high performance/large volume mail service Reply-To: Paul Graham Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 19:10:47 -0400 From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk we're interested in large volume smtp mailing lists. i've browsed the list archives and found some mention of others with similar desires but found no answers. is anyone moving something like (typical values) 500k smtp messages to 13k hosts in 5k domains? if you're familiar with bitnet/listserv you may have heard of ubvm. we're interested in plucking those half million smtp messages off ubvm and letting it concentrate on sending the other 8.5 million bits of mail it deals with daily. assuming i can get the mail off the machine i sort of imagine that something like an sgi challenge with an excess of memory and using xfs to smear the disk files across a few drives might have the i/o resources to move the files. then i need some clever smtp daemons coupled with reasonable queueing (perhaps zmail?). of course i could be completely off the mark about this and it may be that a sparc-20+sendmail can do the trick. any ideas or experience would be most appreciated. From list-managers-owner Wed May 17 23:01:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA10361 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 17 May 1995 22:33:55 -0700 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA10356 for ; Wed, 17 May 1995 22:33:53 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id WAA21069; Wed, 17 May 1995 22:33:03 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 22:33:30 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora Cc: "Roger B.A. Klorese" , dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:10 PM 5/15/95, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote: >>| On the other hand, [digests] make it impossible to sort or filter by >>topic, | poster or thread. > [elided] > >Does Eudora burst digests? I dunno. It can sort and filter. Keep this reasonably quiet for now, but Eudora 3.0 (in early testing) does do some of the sorts of things you're describing, as long as you're subbed to a list with "ietfhdr" header digest capability (i.e. MIME-compatible, like the Photoshop list). I did an informal poll a while back as part of my E3 alpha-testing and found *very* few lists that support the MIME headers, though... seems like many list-managers have some catching up to do with their software(s). dave From list-managers-owner Thu May 18 05:32:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA17538 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 1995 05:19:28 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA17529 for ; Thu, 18 May 1995 05:19:22 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 May 95 8:22:36 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: Dave Del Torto , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9505180822.aa28591@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto wrote: >Keep this reasonably quiet for now, but Eudora 3.0 (in early testing) does >do some of the sorts of things you're describing, as long as you're subbed >to a list with "ietfhdr" header digest capability (i.e. MIME-compatible, >like the Photoshop list). > >I did an informal poll a while back as part of my E3 alpha-testing and >found *very* few lists that support the MIME headers, though... seems like >many list-managers have some catching up to do with their software(s). So point me to a resource describing them! I'm no awk expert, but I can hack my scripts to add stuff like that (hell, the awk script doesn't even do the headers). Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Thu May 18 06:01:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA18245 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 18 May 1995 05:46:32 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA18235 for ; Thu, 18 May 1995 05:46:27 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sC4v2-00021eC; Thu, 18 May 95 05:43 PDT Message-Id: To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 17 May 1995 22:33:30 -0700. Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 05:43:11 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I did an informal poll a while back as part of my E3 alpha-testing and > found *very* few lists that support the MIME headers, though... seems like > many list-managers have some catching up to do with their software(s). No, many list managers realize the rest of the world has some catching up to do, and choose to conform to the long-standing RFC'd digest format. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Fri May 19 17:32:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA03323 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 1995 17:18:21 -0700 Received: from gold.interlog.com (gold.interlog.com [198.53.145.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA03318 for ; Fri, 19 May 1995 17:18:17 -0700 Received: from nelligan.interlog.com (nelligan.interlog.com [198.53.146.217]) by gold.interlog.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA12492 for ; Fri, 19 May 1995 20:18:02 -0400 Message-Id: <199505200018.UAA12492@gold.interlog.com> X-Sender: silliker1@winston.interlog.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 20:11:09 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Andrew Silliker Subject: Regurgitated mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm a sysadmin on a machine that handles 5 or 8 lists. Recently, one of the lists burped, and regurgitated about 100 messages from 3 weeks previous. I have a couple of questions. 1) Has anyone seen this before? 2) If so, how did you solve it? 3) What may or may not be causing it? I run BSD/OS 2.0, with majordomo 1.9(8?)3 Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Andy. From list-managers-owner Fri May 19 23:32:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA08520 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 19 May 1995 23:07:29 -0700 Received: from mail.nws.orst.edu (mail.nws.orst.edu [128.193.128.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id XAA08515 for ; Fri, 19 May 1995 23:07:26 -0700 Received: (from mailserv@localhost) by mail.nws.orst.edu (8.6.9/8.6.6) id XAA08442; Fri, 19 May 1995 23:08:29 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 May 1995 23:08:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Vince - IE - Experimental Mail Server Admin Acct To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: bulk_mail Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just ftped Keith Moore's bulk_mail program, can someone tell me what I need to do to get this to work with Majordomo v1.93 and also does it compile on a SUN running SUNOS 4.1.3? Thanks. Cheers, -Vince- UCLA Physics/Electrical Engineering vince@kbrown.oldcampus.yale.edu From list-managers-owner Sat May 20 00:31:59 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA08886 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 1995 00:03:38 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA08881 for ; Sat, 20 May 1995 00:03:33 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA11561 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 20 May 1995 00:03:19 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA07494 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 20 May 1995 00:03:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199505200703.AA07494@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 May 95 00:03:18 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave wrote: > > I did an informal poll a while back as part of my E3 alpha-testing and > found *very* few lists that support the MIME headers, though... seems like > many list-managers have some catching up to do with their software(s). I just installed SmartList 3.10 on my list and invited 100 of my subscribers to help stress-test it and give comments on the functionality. SmartList 3.10 does MIME digests. Result: practically unanimous howls of protest from readers with MIME-aware mail readers. "What IS this?" "I hate this!" "Why won't it just let me read it as a plain text file?" "what's this attachment sh*t?" "I couldn't read the file!" "If it stays this way, I won't subscribe". Even I hated it. I use MH and set the NOMHNPROC to turn it off in MH. I told them that it was their mail reader reacting to the MIME headers and that there was probably a way to configure their mail reader not to process the mail that way. They didn't care, they had no idea what I was talking about, no interest in learning. They only knew that they liked it the way it was before and now it was awful. I went into smartlist and turned all the mime stuff off. Result: very happy readers. MIME digests might be OK for specialized audiences, but not in general. Trust me. -- Michelle Dick artemis@best.com East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sat May 20 12:32:04 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA15254 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 1995 12:16:15 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA15249 for ; Sat, 20 May 1995 12:16:11 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.10/8.6.5) id MAA18262; Sat, 20 May 1995 12:15:54 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 12:15:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Michelle Dick cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-Reply-To: <199505200703.AA07494@bolero.rahul.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 20 May 1995, Michelle Dick wrote: > MIME digests might be OK for specialized audiences, but not in > general. Trust me. What about having two lists, mailinglist-digest and mailinglist-digest-mime? Brian From list-managers-owner Sat May 20 16:32:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA17084 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 1995 16:16:17 -0700 Received: from mickey.umiacs.UMD.EDU (mickey.umiacs.umd.edu [128.8.120.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA17079 for ; Sat, 20 May 1995 16:16:13 -0700 Received: by mickey.umiacs.UMD.EDU (8.6.11/UMIACS-0.9/04-05-88) id TAA01319; Sat, 20 May 1995 19:15:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199505202315.TAA01319@mickey.umiacs.UMD.EDU> To: Andrew Silliker cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Regurgitated mail? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 19 May 1995 20:11:09 EDT." <199505200018.UAA12492@gold.interlog.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 19:15:57 -0400 From: Todd Kover Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm a sysadmin on a machine that handles 5 or 8 lists. Recently, one of the > lists burped, and regurgitated about 100 messages from 3 weeks previous. > > I have a couple of questions. > > 1) Has anyone seen this before? > 2) If so, how did you solve it? > 3) What may or may not be causing it? look closely at the headers of the resent messages. Oftentimes what happens is someone may have a local exploder (or just a local mailer) misconfigured, and mail that comes to the list goes to that site, which resends it back to the list, etc, etc.. The weeklong delay could be a result of a lot of things, one possibility of which is a UUCP link to the site causing problems, or the site being down for a while, or something like that. Take a look at the Recieved headers and see if it looks like they've got something in common in the way they were passed around. -Todd Todd Kover (kovert@umiacs.umd.edu) -- o -- http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/~kovert // "If, after having been exposed to someone's presence, you feel as though \X/ you've lost a quart of plasma, avoid that presence." From list-managers-owner Sat May 20 21:02:14 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA20227 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 20 May 1995 20:54:33 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA13798 for ; Sat, 20 May 1995 08:59:46 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA10382 for ; Sat, 20 May 1995 11:59:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199505201559.LAA10382@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 From: Bob Snyder To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 20 May 1995 00:03:18 PDT." <199505200703.AA07494@bolero.rahul.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 11:59:30 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Result: practically unanimous howls of protest from readers with > MIME-aware mail readers. "What IS this?" "I hate this!" "Why won't > it just let me read it as a plain text file?" "what's this attachment > sh*t?" "I couldn't read the file!" "If it stays this way, I won't > subscribe". > > Even I hated it. I use MH and set the NOMHNPROC to turn it off in MH. > > I told them that it was their mail reader reacting to the MIME headers > and that there was probably a way to configure their mail reader not > to process the mail that way. They didn't care, they had no idea what > I was talking about, no interest in learning. They only knew that > they liked it the way it was before and now it was awful. > > I went into smartlist and turned all the mime stuff off. Result: > very happy readers. > > MIME digests might be OK for specialized audiences, but not in > general. Trust me. The problem isn't with MIME digests. The problem is with people's MIME readers. Programs like elm which only partially impliment MIME. MIME digests can be similar enough to normal digests that splitters work on them, but the Content-Type: header causes mail reader to react. If you don't like the way your reader shows MIME digests, complain to the authors and give suggestions. I use exmh, and am very happy with its MIME support. The biggest advantage of MIME digests over "normal" digests is that MIME digests can contain MIME documents. Practically, though, unless you have a small list, you'd probably want to offer both MIME and non-MIME digests. But you aren't going to see better reader support until there are more MIME digest-ed lists out there. Bob From list-managers-owner Sun May 21 00:32:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA22104 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 1995 00:14:01 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA22099 for ; Sun, 21 May 1995 00:13:58 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA26502 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 21 May 1995 00:13:47 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA24288 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sun, 21 May 1995 00:13:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199505210713.AA24288@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-Reply-To: <199505201559.LAA10382@janet.advsys.com> Date: Sun, 21 May 95 00:13:46 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bob wrote: > > The problem isn't with MIME digests. The problem is with people's MIME > readers. Programs like elm which only partially impliment MIME. MIME digest s > can be similar enough to normal digests that splitters work on them, but the > Content-Type: header causes mail reader to react. If you don't like the way > your reader shows MIME digests, complain to the authors and give suggestions. My readers rejected that response -- I tried it. They didn't care why it didn't "work", they barely even knew the name of the program they used to read mail (from what I could tell, it was mostly Pine, Elm, and Eudora. They didn't want to fiddle with anything on their end, they just wanted a simple easy to read digest. I didn't like the way MH parsed the digest because it kept pausing after each message. My list consists mostly of lots of short messages, the pausing between each message was annoying as all get out. I kept yelling out the computer "stop that!" until I got sane and did "man mh" to look up how to turn it off. :-) > The biggest advantage of MIME digests over "normal" digests is that MIME > digests can contain MIME documents. So can regular digests. One of my testers tried sending a short binary in mime format to the list (after I removed the mime headers from the overall digest). Two Eudora users reported that their readers automatically handled it. > Practically, though, unless you have a small list, you'd probably want to > offer both MIME and non-MIME digests. But you aren't going to see better > reader support until there are more MIME digest-ed lists out there. Nah, I have no plans to offer a MIME option. Not one single reader wanted it and most hated it. If they want it all they have to do is filter it though procmail on their end and add a "Content" header up top. I don't need to do it for them. Although I eliminated the MIME headers, SmartList is friendly towards internal MIME stuff (adjusting the dividers and such to be internally consistent). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun May 21 16:32:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA29506 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 1995 16:27:45 -0700 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA29501 for ; Sun, 21 May 1995 16:27:42 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id QAA20698; Sun, 21 May 1995 16:26:36 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 16:27:25 -0700 To: Tom Coradeschi From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:22 AM 5/18/95, Tom Coradeschi Dave Del Torto wrote: >>found *very* few lists that support the MIME headers, though... seems like >>many list-managers have some catching up to do with their software(s). > >So point me to a resource describing them! I wish I *could* provide you/us with a list, Tom, I really do. Meanwhile, LISTSERVs and ListProcs appear to be the supportive ones and Majordomo does not apparently support IETFHDRs yet (I believe that Brent commented as much to me, at least). The only list I found (which prompted my comment about "catching up") among my 73 list subscriptions was the Photoshop list...but I'm still looking as I go. Certainly listmaintainers using the LISTSERV and ListProc have the option, though many have not yet enabled it. dave .................................. cut here .................................. > ---------> Please do NOT send these requests to photshop@bgu.edu! <------- > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or change your subscription options, first >select the appropriate listproc address: > > from an Internet address > (or from AOL, Compuserve, etc.) -----------------------> listproc2@bgu.edu > > from a BITNET address -----------------------------------> listproc@ecnuxa > >Then send the appropriate command: > >(Requests should have no subject or signature. Any subsequent commands >should be e-mailed to the same listproc address as the initial subscription >request.) > > ---------> Please do NOT send these requests to photshop@bgu.edu! <------- > > sub photshop Your Realname - adds you to the Photshop list > (substitute your real name for Your Realname) > > unsub photshop - removes you from the Photshop list > (do *not* include your name with this request) > > set photshop mail digest - groups postings into digest form before > sending them to you > > set photshop mail ack - sends you back a copy of the postings you > send to the list > > set photshop mail noack - turns off the ack option > > set photshop mail postpone - stops mail delivery temporarily > > (The list commands digest, ack, noack > and postpone are mutually exclusive. > To turn *off* one of them, turn *on* > one of the others.) > > ---------> Please do NOT send these requests to photshop@bgu.edu! <-------- > >If you have any problems with this, please write to me at: > > gis52r0@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu PS: I sent the following to the majordomo: To: listproc@bgu.edu From: (me) [subj] (optional) [msg-body:] set photshop mail digest From list-managers-owner Sun May 21 17:33:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA29892 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 21 May 1995 17:26:43 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA29887 for ; Sun, 21 May 1995 17:26:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199505220026.RAA29887@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0805; Mon, 22 May 95 02:22:22 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 5285; Mon, 22 May 1995 02:22:22 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 02:20:47 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora To: Tom Coradeschi , Dave Del Torto cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 21 May 1995 16:27:25 -0700 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 21 May 1995 16:27:25 -0700 Dave Del Torto said: >Certainly listmaintainers using the LISTSERV and ListProc have the >option, though many have not yet enabled it. With LISTSERV, each individual *user* can set this option for his own subscription. The list owner can only set the default. Only a list exit can prevent subscribers from selecting the type of header they like. So, you can have the headers you want regardless of how the list owner set up the list. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon May 22 14:32:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA21028 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 14:27:02 -0700 Received: from midway.uchicago.edu (midway.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.73]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA21018; Mon, 22 May 1995 14:26:48 -0700 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id QAA11395; Mon, 22 May 1995 16:26:34 -0500 Received: from localhost.uchicago.edu (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with SMTP id QAA20929; Mon, 22 May 1995 16:26:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199505222126.QAA20929@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: woodlawn.uchicago.edu: Host localhost.uchicago.edu didn't use HELO protocol To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, SmartList@informatik.rwth-aachen.de Subject: Request for some information regarding mailing list packages Date: Mon, 22 May 95 16:26:13 -0500 From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hello I am a member of a student group here that intends to get a mailing list server up and running happily. There are a couple of issues that we are worried about: 1. Good performance with really high loads. We have no idea how much this will actually be used, but we have every hope that it will be quite a bit. And we want something that will deal with this reasonably well. 2. We want to have a reasonable level of user-friendliness for both list-owners and users. Many of the people involved will be users with, frnakly, insufficient knowledge. So we want something that is able to handle high levels of cluelessness. 3. Because we want this to be used, there is an issue of how best to set things up so that people can get lists with relative ease (currently student organizations can get lists if they promise that they will give the first born son of the next 25 generations to the university for medical research :) This is more of a policy question than anything else, but there are issues regarding thigns like how to setup up a web-browser to wander the archives, and numerous other things that i cannot think of right now. First, I have _read_ the FAQ and found it very useful. But I was told by someone that there was a review of the major software that was _extremely_ detailed that came out about two years ago. It dealt primarily with ListProc and Majordomo and possibly more. If this is the FAQ in an old form, I am very sorry. If it is not, and someone knows what I am referring to, please provide me with a little information about the current state of this If you have gotten this before, I am terribly sorry. I have been bombarded with the well-deserved read the faq responses. thank you very much Soren Dayton From list-managers-owner Mon May 22 15:04:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA21456 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 14:39:24 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA21451; Mon, 22 May 1995 14:39:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199505222139.OAA21451@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3240; Mon, 22 May 95 23:35:00 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 8470; Mon, 22 May 1995 23:34:59 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 23:33:05 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Request for some information regarding mailing list packages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com, SmartList@informatik.rwth-aachen.de, Soren Dayton In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 May 95 16:26:13 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 22 May 95 16:26:13 -0500 Soren Dayton said: >First, I have _read_ the FAQ and found it very useful. But I was told by >someone that there was a review of the major software that was >_extremely_ detailed that came out about two years ago. It dealt >primarily with ListProc and Majordomo and possibly more. I don't remember ever seeing this, but let's face it, if it's two years old it's totally useless. It would be like using a 1993 PC magazine to decide which PC to buy today :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Mon May 22 15:33:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA00146 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 15:04:24 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA00131 for ; Mon, 22 May 1995 15:04:20 -0700 Received: from journal.math.indiana.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950507) id PAA01788; Mon, 22 May 1995 15:01:56 -0700 Message-Id: <199505222201.PAA01788@mycroft.GreatCircle.COM> Received: by journal.math.indiana.edu (4.1/9.7jsm) id AA23086; Mon, 22 May 95 18:10:00 EDT Date: Mon, 22 May 95 18:10:00 EDT From: "Elena Fraboschi" To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: Re: Request for some information regarding mailing list packages Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I believe an assessment of what program might be best for large, very active mailing lists should take into account something I overlooked in my case, namely, hardware. I run eight mailing lists, some of them with 1700 subscribers, some of them with 100 messages per day. I was running them with antiquated C scripts that required me to do a lot of work (subscribe, unsubscribe, answer queries), but that never taxed my machine too much. I have relatively little memory (16 MB). I switched to majordomo after hearing accolades about its virtues, and the praise is all well deserved. In particular, the time needed to administer the lists went down very substantially. However... majordomo is built on Perl, which is much more of a memory hog than a plain C script. Or I do not know what the story is, but my machine very often runs out of memory, and the time I no longer need to administer the lists, I now have to invest into pruning mqueues, rebooting the machine in order to bring the processes down to 0, if I do not have the time to wait till the out-of-memory condition ceases and I again can work, etc. If this were a dedicated machine, doing exclusively majordomo, majordomo would be ideal. But sad stories have a happy ending: I was scheduled to upgrade my hardware anyhow, so I have bought a machine, not yet running, which doubles the amount of memory. I hope my out-of-memory problems are a thing of the past. (And I do hope that no one tells me to look at the FAQ or to check my permissions... majordomo is well installed, and it works like silk during the weekends, when the subscribers are half as active!) Still, I believe the moral of my story applies: check what hardware you have. In particular: memory and swap space! Best, elena From list-managers-owner Mon May 22 16:06:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA01638 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 15:54:37 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA01628; Mon, 22 May 1995 15:54:22 -0700 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA23494; Mon, 22 May 1995 18:53:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA26504; Mon, 22 May 1995 18:53:51 -0400 Message-Id: <199505222253.SAA26504@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: Soren Dayton cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, SmartList@informatik.rwth-aachen.de Subject: Re: Request for some information regarding mailing list packages In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 May 1995 16:26:13 CDT." <199505222126.QAA20929@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 18:53:51 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199505222126.QAA20929@woodlawn.uchicago.edu>, Soren Dayton writes: >First, I have _read_ the FAQ and found it very useful. But I was told by >someone that there was a review of the major software that was >_extremely_ detailed that came out about two years ago. It dealt >primarily with ListProc and Majordomo and possibly more. The Majordomo FAQ referrs you to a FAQ by Norm Aleks which is exactly this (not the two-year-old version, the current one). Majordomo FAQ: http://www.math.psu.edu/barr/majordomo-faq.html Mailing list management software FAQ: ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq --Dave From list-managers-owner Mon May 22 21:34:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA08507 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 22 May 1995 21:29:59 -0700 Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA08502 for ; Mon, 22 May 1995 21:29:57 -0700 Received: from kirk.Bond.edu.au by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950507) id VAA02311; Mon, 22 May 1995 21:27:34 -0700 Received: from macmail.bond.edu.au by kirk.Bond.edu.au using SMTP (8.6.12) Message-ID: Date: 23 May 1995 14:19:13 +1000 From: "zz Sreeni Boralingiah" Subject: To: "list" X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP/MS 3.0.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk signoff sreeni boralingiah From list-managers-owner Tue May 23 08:19:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA16520 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 1995 07:46:14 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA16512 for ; Tue, 23 May 1995 07:46:06 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-7) id AA12069; Tue, 23 May 95 16:45:08 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOLMH.3) id AA04557; Tue, 23 May 95 16:44:34 +0200 Message-Id: <9505231444.AA04557@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 16:44:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: Soren Dayton's message as of 1995 May 22 Mon 16:14. <199505222114.QAA20321@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> To: Soren Dayton , list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Clarification Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Soren Dayton wrote: >I asked for information about three mailing list packages. I want to >someone that there was a review of the major software that was >_extremely_ detailed that came out about two years ago. It dealt >primarily with ListProc and Majordomo and one other. The other one was SmartList. >If it is not, and someone knows what I am referring to, please provide >me with a little information about the current state of this It has not been updated. It appeared on list-managers@greatcircle.com (indeed about two years ago). I suggest you check the archives of that mailinglist. -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Good moaning!" From list-managers-owner Tue May 23 21:04:13 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA03986 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 23 May 1995 21:03:49 -0700 Received: from ub-gate.UB.com (ub-gate.UB.com [128.203.50.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA09676; Tue, 23 May 1995 00:07:52 -0700 Received: from bolis.UUCP by ub-gate.UB.com (4.1/SMI-4.1[UB-1.9.1]) id AA24132; Tue, 23 May 95 00:07:20 PDT Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0sDowP-000ClzC; Tue, 23 May 95 01:03 PDT Message-Id: From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: "Elena Fraboschi" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 22:54:31 -800 Subject: Re: Request for some information regarding mailing list pa Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I run eight mailing lists, some of them with 1700 subscribers, > some of them with 100 messages per day. I was running them with > antiquated C scripts that required me to do a lot of work (subscribe, > unsubscribe, answer queries), but that never taxed my machine too > much. I have relatively little memory (16 MB). I switched to > majordomo is built on Perl, which is much more of a memory hog than a plain > C script. Or I do not know what the story is, but my machine very > often runs out of memory, and the time I no longer need to administer Did you do any investigation as to what was taking all the CPU time? Specifically, was it Majordomo itself handling subscription administrivia, or was it "resend" on the message redistribution? If it was resend, you might find that using your old C programs for the distribution, but Majordomo for the subscription handling could give you the right combination. Also, as Brent mentioned, -odq to queue the messages will do wonders to improve delivery. - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar From list-managers-owner Wed May 24 05:34:07 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA11044 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 24 May 1995 05:05:47 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA11039 for ; Wed, 24 May 1995 05:05:41 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA00900 for ; Wed, 24 May 1995 08:04:13 -0400 Message-Id: <199505241204.IAA00900@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6 4/21/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: IETFHDR Digests & Eudora In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 May 1995 00:13:46 PDT." <199505210713.AA24288@bolero.rahul.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 May 1995 08:04:12 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > My readers rejected that response -- I tried it. They didn't care why > it didn't "work", they barely even knew the name of the program they > used to read mail (from what I could tell, it was mostly Pine, Elm, > and Eudora. They didn't want to fiddle with anything on their end, > they just wanted a simple easy to read digest. Elm hands anything besides standard text/plain off to metamail. metamail's interface leaves a lot to be desired, especially when it comes to digests. I'm not familar with Pine, but Eurdora users shouldn't have had a problem; it simply displays it inline with a seperator bar, as far as I recall. An intelligent way to handle digests, MIME or otherwise, is to seperate them somehow, and to allow one to either respond back to the list address, or to respond to the individual of that individual article. > > The biggest advantage of MIME digests over "normal" digests is that MIME > > digests can contain MIME documents. > > So can regular digests. One of my testers tried sending a short > binary in mime format to the list (after I removed the mime headers > from the overall digest). Two Eudora users reported that their > readers automatically handled it. How was the binary encoded? Base-64, as MIME dictates, or BinHex or uuencoding? I know Eudora is smart enough to notice BinHex or (in the commercial version) uuencoding in the midddle of a message, but it won't pick up a MIME message encoded that way. Nor will it properly deal with quoted-printable, character sets other than US-ASCII, or anything else realy MIME'ish. I know one of the biggest frustrations for me is when people send quoted-printable to a LISTSERV list that I get as a digest. > Nah, I have no plans to offer a MIME option. Not one single reader > wanted it and most hated it. If they want it all they have to do is Hopefully this will change with time as more intelligent MUAs come out. It's a chicken and egg problem. MUAs won't improve MIME digest handling because there aren't many MIME digests, and there aren't many MIME digests because readers don't handle them well. Bob From list-managers-owner Mon May 29 18:34:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA10491 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 29 May 1995 18:20:20 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA10486 for ; Mon, 29 May 1995 18:20:17 -0700 From: TDean516@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA100556803; Mon, 29 May 1995 21:20:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 21:20:03 -0400 Message-Id: <950529212001_16139574@aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Request Subscription Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to receive a subscription to the Managing Interenet Mailing Lists at Terry516@aol.com. Thank you.