From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 08:15:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA08286 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 08:05:27 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA08187 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 07:59:07 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23874 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:26:14 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA19131; 1 Jul 95 09:25:26 CDT (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id JAA19128 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:25:26 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507011425.JAA19128@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Possible Mailing List Spammers? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:25:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1474 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Peter received this in email and found it somewhat disturbing: Forwarded message: > From peter Sat Jul 1 08:45:55 1995 > From: "Notii[4~" > To: Multiple@venere.inet.it, Recipients@venere.inet.it, of@venere.inet.it, > the@venere.inet.it, mailing@venere.inet.it, list@venere.inet.it > Subject: Internet Mailing lists for sale > Organization: Logica Servizi Edizioni Software s.r.l. > Date: 01 Jul 95 14:47 CET > Reply-To: ndr@logica.it > Message-Id: <950701144742@logica.it> > Lines: 14 > Distribution: World > X-Newsreader: Logica Nets Version 0.1.00 > Sender: peter > > Please excuse us for intrusion. > > WE have several electronic mailing lists and more to be scanned based on criteria > eventually specific to you. > We also can supply windows software which is able to batch send a message to > large mailing lists. > > If interested please contact us and I will be pleased to give you further info. > > > If you are disturbed by our action and want to be removed from our lists please tell > us and we will immediately remove your address. > Thank you > > Beniamino Vignola > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > Logica Servizi Edizioni Software s.r.l. > Via Severano 33 - 00161 Roma - Italy > Phone 39-6-44291214 - Fax 39-6-44291390 > Email: > info log-info@logica.it > staff log-staff@logica.it > orders bookorder@logica.it > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 21:34:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA25281 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:13:23 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA25276 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:13:20 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 18; Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:30 PDT Date: Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:27 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Time to wait before dropping members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, All, Over the years, I have acquired three major (in my opinion, at least...) mailing lists on the Internet. From time to time, I get a slough of bounced messages from sites. Most are transitory, but some persist for days. ANd of course the feedback from the postmasters at some sites is less than timely... What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 22:04:20 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA25620 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:50:17 -0700 Received: from halcyon.com (halcyon.halcyon.com [198.137.231.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA25615 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:50:13 -0700 Received: by halcyon.com id AA09658 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 From: Ralph Sims Message-Id: <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Jul 1, 95 09:12:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 853 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you > start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you > finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to come up with a solution. A few of the listservs drop the address on the first bounce. I appreciate the need to do this, especially with large groups, but would also appreciate a little slack. We don't need much time--maybe an hour or two--to get things back online. From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 1 22:34:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA26361 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:23:31 -0700 Received: from nmia.com (nmia.com [198.59.166.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA26356 for ; Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:23:28 -0700 Received: from plato.nmia.com by nmia.com with smtp (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #4) id m0sSHUR-000LauC; Sat, 1 Jul 95 23:22 MDT Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 23:22:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Ozz Graham To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members In-Reply-To: <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > Hi, All, > > Over the years, I have acquired three major (in my opinion, > at least...) mailing lists on the Internet. From time to time, > I get a slough of bounced messages from sites. Most are transitory, > but some persist for days. ANd of course the feedback from the > postmasters at some sites is less than timely... I usually wait till 3 bounce, then send personel e-mail to the person, if that bounces, and I can't finger them, I delete them from our list. If they write back, and we are able to respond to them, we explain what happened. > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you > start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you > finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? I go 3 times, and try a personal e-mail the 4th time, as I said above. I figure thats good enough. What does everyone else think? BTW, my wife adn I run a quilt-related mail list called QuiltBiz, its hand-maintained. Ozz Graham From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 04:04:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA00699 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 03:48:55 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA00694 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 03:48:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199507021048.DAA00694@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2713; Sun, 02 Jul 95 12:43:38 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1907; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:43:38 +0200 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:27:09 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: "Henry W. Miller" , Ralph Sims cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Ralph Sims said: >Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 users >sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are related to >mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some sort of system >maintenance that locks access to the password file, hence bouncing mail >("unknown user" or some sort of error). Let me make sure I get this right. From time to time, you need to perform some technical thing or other that makes your mail system throw away all mail to perfectly valid local users. The mail thrown away in this way cannot be recovered. This is no accident - you know that mail will be lost irretrievably for a few hours. And yet you keep doing it. Well, where I come from, you would at a minimum be fired, and probably sued for gross negligence. Lawyers would calculate that each lost message costs $100 or so to the company and multiply by the number of lost messages (say 3000 every time at your published rates) and by the number of times you've done that (probably not more than 3-4 before someone found out) and they'd be asking for somewhere around a million dollars in damages. Obviously we come from very different worlds :-) What I find very interesting is that you are blaming this problem on LISTSERV (which, incidentally, no longer behaves as you said). Ah, I see that Halcyon is an ISP. All right then, do your users know about this? Do you publicize to your business customers that they can expect to lose mail irretrievably from time to time because you have to perform technical jumble XYZ and unfortunately this makes all the mail bounce and you haven't been able to find a way not to make it happen? Do they know that there are providers who don't have that problem? >While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to come up >with a solution. Simply stop your SMTP listener while you're doing that. You won't receive any mail and thus won't have the opportunity to lose any. It's not rocket science is it??? Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 07:04:26 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02330 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 06:40:26 -0700 Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA02325 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 06:40:23 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA19865; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:39:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199507021339.IAA19865@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: "Henry W. Miller" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members X-Request-Do: take X-Request-Do: Resolve In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:12:27 PDT." <00992B7F.D54002C6.18@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 08:39:34 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It really depends upon the list and the amount of activity it has. For more active lists, it is a matter of days as even a small ( x < 1%) of bounce traffic can be 1000's of messages and many megs of bounce traffic in a week. For less active lists, it could be several weeks because it doesn't matter as much. It may also depend on what the casuse of the error is. Major cuases of bounces that I see are: user has moved on so, "unknown user" hostname has changed "host unknown" internet host down "unable to contact" UUCP host down "unable to contact host for xx hours" I hate these as they are followed by: UUCP host down "unable to deliver message for X days" user does something stupid. forward to a forward loop, bad procmail, etc site does soemthing wrong, bad sendmail.cf, bad mx record, etc. --Gene From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 09:04:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA03542 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:43:45 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA03537 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 08:43:43 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA121719775; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 11:42:55 -0400 Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 11:42:55 -0400 Message-Id: <950702114254_23907129@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-07-02 00:38:21 EDT, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) writes: > What is considered a reasonable amount of time once you >start receiving bounced messages from a remote site until you >finally throw in the towell and remove the user from the list? If the bounce message is "no such user", they are QUIET DELETEd immediately. If the report is "mailbox full", I delete them without the quiet option. If the report is anything else, they are set to NOMAIL. Between the three lists I run, I get about 500 bounce reports a day on average, and I don't have the time or leisure to track each case down and resolve the problem. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 10:34:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA05638 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 10:27:07 -0700 Received: from so.cynical.net (so.cynical.net [198.53.146.217]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA05633 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 10:27:02 -0700 Received: (from silliker1@localhost) by so.cynical.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA03946 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 13:24:16 -0400 From: Andrew Silliker Message-Id: <199507021724.NAA03946@so.cynical.net> Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 13:24:15 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> from "Ralph Sims" at Jul 1, 95 09:49:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 556 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 > users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are > related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some > sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, > hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). When I start doing maintenance on a level where mail will begin to bounce, I just remove the machine from the ethernet. More of an annoyance that user unknown (to me), are the tradidtional Mailbox Full bounces. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 2 18:04:27 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA12990 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:38:21 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA12980 for ; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:38:18 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id UAA28924; Sun, 2 Jul 1995 20:37:14 -0400 Message-Id: <199507030037.UAA28924@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Ralph Sims cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller), list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Time to wait before dropping members In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 01 Jul 1995 21:49:19 PDT." <199507020449.AA09658@halcyon.com> Date: Sun, 02 Jul 1995 20:37:07 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Hopefully longer than the BITNET listservs do. We have about 7,000 > users sending and receiving over 40,000 messages per day--many are > related to mailing lists. There are times that we must perform some > sort of system maintenance that locks access to the password file, > hence bouncing mail ("unknown user" or some sort of error). You *really* need to fix this. One frequent source of this problem is when passwords are served by NIS or NIS+ databases but the interface to the password database is still through getpwnam() -- which has no way to distinguish between permanent failure (like "no such user") and temporary failure (like "server down"). Ideally, the mailer would do the NIS lookup directly and thereby be able to tell the difference. Our fix was to set up multiple NIS servers, and to make sure the primary server is never taken down unless absolutely necessary. It's also possible to simply kill the sendmail daemon (or whatever MTA you're using) whenever the password server is taken down for maintenance. > While we'd like to fix that problem on our end, we've yet to > come up with a solution. A few of the listservs drop the > address on the first bounce. I appreciate the need to do this, > especially with large groups, but would also appreciate a little > slack. We don't need much time--maybe an hour or two--to get > things back online. In my experience, something like half of the bounces I get are due to intermittent errors like the ones described here, or configuration problems that could be fixed by a competent postmaster. So I try to wait a day or two before nuking a user from one of my lists. I also send out warning messages to the users whose mail is bouncing (which mainly serve to tell *me* that the mail is still broken, but I send a copy to the recipient's postmaster if it looks like the kind of thing that he might be able to fix). Unfortunately, few postmasters have demonstrated the ability to fix sendmail configuration errors... Keith From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 3 08:36:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04024 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 08:22:33 -0700 Received: from reggae.ncren.net (reggae.ncren.net [128.109.131.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04010 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 08:22:30 -0700 Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu by reggae.ncren.net (5.65/tas-reggae/may94) id AA21250; Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:21:45 -0400 Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA00888; Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:22:34 EDT Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 11:22:34 EDT From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9507031522.AA00888@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: "unknown user" bounces Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It sure is news to me that this is an indication of a possibly temporary problem. I had been deleting list entries immediately when I got this message, assuming that the user had moved on or that they had subscribed with an incorrect address. Personally, I prefer the "host down, will try for another X days" messages, because they sound much more temporary. cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu Cathy Eades PET Center Bowman Gray School of Medicine Winston-Salem, NC From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 3 18:34:47 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18882 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:16:06 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA18877 for ; Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:16:03 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA15378; Mon, 3 Jul 95 18:44:56 -0700 Message-Id: <9507040144.AA15378@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Mon, 03 Jul 95 18:44:56 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: A9720CAA X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: A9720CAA From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 3 Jul 95 18:07:09 TZ Subject: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950704010722MTP[01.00.00]000000f8-3870 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone! This mailing list has been extremely helpful to me. I have yet another question: Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list you are trying to send a message to? Thanks, Ben. PS. Either this mailing list has been very quiet today or I inadvertently signed off of the list. I guess I'll find out. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 01:34:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA27332 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 01:25:06 -0700 Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA27325 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 01:25:03 -0700 Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id EAA00275 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:24:22 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:24:22 -0400 Message-Id: <199507040824.EAA00275@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Benjamin Holz > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? I can't answer your question but have wanted the same information myself. I think it is a great way to avoid spamming. Best to ya from the sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny *********************************************************** Ken Bourbeau Maria McKee Mailinglist email: mckeefan-request@nic.iii.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@kenmoto1.iii.net *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 05:07:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA00529 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:51:04 -0700 Received: from campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.225.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA00524 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 04:50:37 -0700 Received: from tabaqui (tabaqui.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE) by campino.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (4.1/campino-8) id AA08530; Tue, 4 Jul 95 13:47:07 +0200 Received: by tabaqui (4.1/POOLMH.3) id AA05653; Tue, 4 Jul 95 13:46:15 +0200 Message-Id: <9507041146.AA05653@tabaqui> From: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:46:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: Benjamin Holz's message as of 1995 Jul 3 Mon 18:07. <9507040144.AA15378@netmail2.microsoft.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Benjamin Holz wrote: > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? I believe most popular mailinglist manager packages allow you to configure this (Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, SmartList, others?). -- Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "Always look on the bright side of life!" From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 06:04:36 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA01998 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 05:55:56 -0700 Received: from toast (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id FAA01993 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 05:55:53 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id IAA44264 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:55:11 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id IAA32519; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:51:31 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Jul 95 08:17:53 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Architext Bullseye! ? From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: <9soP8c1w165w@knex.mind.org> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 08:08:43 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have just received a solicitation from Architext, which offers to archive mailing list content and then "users powerful ways to search and browse....". The service is called Bullseye! It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user of the Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the access to the text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or does it mean something else? Has any other list owner received this missive and if so, what do you all think about it and what action are you going to take? Are there any copyright issues involved here? On the subject of copyright, does a contributor to a mailing list retain copyright to the article? GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 06:34:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02942 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:29:41 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA02937 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:29:38 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 88; Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:28:02 PDT Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:27:59 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992D5F.C5DC55E6.88@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"berg@pool.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE" 4-JUL-1995 05:16:41.42 > Subj: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? > Benjamin Holz wrote: > > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject > >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list > >you are trying to send a message to? > > I believe most popular mailinglist manager packages allow you to > configure this (Listproc, LISTSERV, Majordomo, SmartList, others?). > Not to mention MX, which runs on VMS systems, which I use for managing my lists... > -- > Sincerely, berg@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de > Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). > > "Always look on the bright side of life!" -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 07:04:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA03549 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:59:07 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA03538 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 06:59:03 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 103; Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:58:03 PDT Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 06:58:00 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: gess@knex.mind.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00992D63.F76A8156.103@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Architext Bullseye! ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"gess@knex.mind.org" 4-JUL-1995 06:11:43.29 > Subj: Architext Bullseye! ? > I have just received a solicitation from Architext, which offers to > archive mailing list content and then "users powerful ways to search and > browse....". The service is called Bullseye! > > It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user of the > Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the access to the > text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or does it mean something > else? > Don't know... > Has any other list owner received this missive and if so, what do you > all think about it and what action are you going to take? Are there any > copyright issues involved here? > Not I, and I manage three "major" lists, the TCP-IP list formerly at NIC.DDN.MIL, and before that at SRI; the CMU-OPENVMS-IP list, formerly the CMU-TEK-TCP list from CMU; and the FREEMASONRY-LIST, which I rescued from oblivion. The former two have been spammed... > On the subject of copyright, does a contributor to a mailing list retain > copyright to the article? > I'm not a lawyer - I don't even play on on TV, but I think that the originator of the post should put a notice in the message if we wants to retain rights. Hopefully, someone who is more versed in the law of the net can expand on this. This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner "copyright" the the contents of the list, i.e., the list of recipients as a legal manuever to take action against spammers? I think we all know about whom I am referring to... > GeSS > -- > Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| > Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 07:34:25 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA03809 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:17:25 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA03804 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 07:17:20 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:34 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200 Message-Id: <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. What I find really amazing about this is that on the short list of recipients, the two lists I maintain, dewy-fields and crossfire, are both included. There is absolutely no other connection between them, one is for a band (Bel Canto) and the other for a computer game. A previous message (to big-linux@netspace.org) only had one lead Message-ID: I then contacted postmaster@med.utah.edu, but he was not surprisingly unable to help. How can we track this down? Kjetil T. Return-Path: <@[128.110.151.36]> Received: from email.MT.GOV (email.MT.GOV [161.7.101.225]) by ifi.uio.no with SMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 03:12:02 +0200 Message-Id: <199507040112.DAA17507@ifi.uio.no> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Transferred: 3-Jul-1995 17:35:37 -0400; at mhs01.ngm01 Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 17:34:35 -0600 To: Biomch-L@nic.surfnet.nl, eu20@a3.xs4all.nl, SLADE@a3.xs4all.nl, dewy-fields@ifi.uio.no, Crossfire@ifi.uio.no From: Olga.Kosmina@Dekabristov_St.5-178.Kiev-253121.Ukraine.UA Subject: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads ## meet women of the former USSR through romance ads ## Months ago, Olga Kosmina placed my personal ad in several papers of the former Soviet Union. Since that time I have received over 40 responses for the $50 I mailed Olga. (I believe she paid the newspapers something around $35 and kept the rest for her efforts.) I have found greater success and savings by placing my own personal romance advertisement rather than purchasing addresses through Russian "bride" catalog companies. If you are interested in placing a personal romance ad as I did, contact Olga. She has built up a list of most every newspaper and magazine in the former Soviet Union and could help direct your ad to certain areas if you wish. She writes, "please say that I place all ad _throughout_ Russia and other countries of former Soviet Union, not only Western Russia." Olga is 23 years old, has a bachelors in biology and works full-time as a florist in Kiev. She speaks, reads and writes English as well as her native languages of Russian and Ukrainian. I realize that it is a very trusting person who would put $ into an envelope and mail to a foreign country. If you would rather send a letter of inquiry first, Olga will respond to your questions. It takes about 16 days for a letter to travel from the USA to Kiev. Olga Kozmina Dekabristov Street 5 - 178 Kiev 253121 Ukraine I have found that by placing a single bill between two pieces of newsprint inside an envelope, the Ukrainian post cannot see through and does not bother to tamper. I have yet to lose a letter sent to Kiev. I am sorry that Olga does not have e-mail because it would make contact with her much easier. I am posting anonymously because of the inordinate amount of e-mail which I would receive -- inquiries as well as flames. Best Wishes, David and Olga Although Olga has never seen a newsgroup nor heard of "net-etiquette," she believes that helping others exceeds the cost of angering those who feel the net should not be used in this fashion. IHA (I humbly ask) that you not flame the postmaster of this site. peace. . . From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 08:34:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04489 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:19:48 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04484 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:19:45 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA120101145; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:19:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:19:05 -0400 Message-Id: <950704111854_25017484@aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Any contrib addresses that reject mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Benjamin Holz writes: > Are there any mailing lists manager packages out there that reject >messages sent to the contrib address if you aren't a member of the list >you are trying to send a message to? Revised LISTSERV can be set to do this, with Send=Private in the list header. If there are problem users at a given site, you can also take steps to prevent them from abusing the list by using a combination of the Filter command and NOPOST setting. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/556-3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 - "The spam stops here." Belief-L, GLB-News, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 08:37:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:21:11 -0700 Received: from insite.parasoft.co.uk (insite.parasoft.co.uk [193.132.123.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA04526 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 08:20:37 -0700 Received: (from root@localhost) by insite.parasoft.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA14055 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0100 From: Peter Bowyer Message-Id: <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Subject: Postmasters To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0200 (BST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 652 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, let alone a promise to fix. OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? Any other experiences? Should I just not bother ? Peter Bowyer peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 10:37:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA07626 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:26:05 -0700 Received: from toast (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA07620 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:26:03 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id NAA17991 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:17 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id NAA06181; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:11:39 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Tue, 04 Jul 95 12:29:14 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 12:25:07 EST In-Reply-To: <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places > before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems > to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. > As soon as I saw this in a couple of lists I subscribe to, I added a filter to divert mail from Olga.Kosmina. I knew my lists will be hit sooner or later (They go in alphabetical order, about 6 lists at a time, it seems). Olga, of course, is innocent, as the spammer claims. She knows nothing about netiquettes and other such matters. :-) GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 12:34:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA11065 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:30:18 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA11059 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:30:14 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA06493; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 15:29:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199507041929.PAA06493@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Peter Bowyer cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Postmasters In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jul 1995 16:39:26 +0200." <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:29:18 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters > in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a > system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, > let alone a promise to fix. If the problem is something simple like a bad user forwarding address, I often get a reply from such message, either explaining how I should deal with the problem or telling me that they've fixed it on their end. If instead the problem is something like a broken mail configuration, I rarely get a reply. Of course, if the mailer is broken, it's possible that the postmaster never received the message or that the machine can't send out a reply anyway. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 12:37:24 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA10947 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:22:56 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA10942 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:22:52 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA06476; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 15:21:55 -0400 Message-Id: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Kjetil Torgrim Homme cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jul 1995 16:16:33 +0200." <199507041416.29170.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:21:48 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This one really drives me mad. I've seen this in several places > before, including Linux development mailing lists. The spammer seems > to have chosen a trickle tactic to create less controversy. ... > I then contacted postmaster@med.utah.edu, but he was not surprisingly > unable to help. The message was sent from email.mt.gov (161.7.101.255), so you might try sending mail to the postmaster there. Some of us who are reasonably close by might care to telephone them: State of Montana (MT-DOM) Department of Administration RM 22 Mitchell Bldg. Helena, MT 59620 Domain Name: MT.GOV Administrative Contact: Heilman, Ron (RH31) heilman@DOA.MT.GOV (406) 444-2924 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: VanderVoort, Charley (CV57) [No mailbox] (406)444-2863 After my first mailing list got hit, I did the following on my mail server: route add host email.mt.gov localhost 1 to keep my machine from answering any packets I got from there. Unfortunately, our mail machine was taken down for backups last night, and when it was rebooted, it lost the route :( I'd like to know about any other hacks that people use to filter out potential spam. Since these things are usually posted to every mailing list, I wonder if we could get the cooperation of a couple of lists near the top and bottom of the PAML list....whenever they see things that look like spams, let the other list admins know about it. Then everybody else could filter out the offending messages. Obviously this is a pain to do manually, but once we got the process set up, we could automate it. Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 13:04:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA11862 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:51:59 -0700 Received: from terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (terra.stack.urc.tue.nl [131.155.140.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA11857 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 12:51:56 -0700 Received: from xaa.stack.urc.tue.nl (uucp@localhost) by terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (8.6.11) with UUCP id VAA13375; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 21:51:16 +0200 Received: (from xaa@localhost) by localhost (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA03963; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:59:01 +0200 From: Mark Huizer Message-Id: <199507041659.SAA03963@localhost> Subject: Re: Postmasters To: peter@insite.parasoft.co.uk (Peter Bowyer) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:59:00 +0200 (MET DST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199507041539.QAA14055@insite.parasoft.co.uk> from "Peter Bowyer" at Jul 4, 95 04:39:26 pm Reply-To: xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1348 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about > mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... > > I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters > in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a > system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, > let alone a promise to fix. And the problem is that they normally don't get noticed, since postmasters mailbox is always flooding with returned mail due to typo's machines being unreachable etc... I know the amount of effort put in to reading this folder :-) Don't expect the world from it > > OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his > neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off > a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? One tries, one tries... But 100 mails on the same subject make your fingers hurt :-) > Mark Huizer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Mark Huizer - xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl - markh@win.tue.nl - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless - - by not committing them? -- Jules Feiffer - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 13:34:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA12880 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:56 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA12873 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 13:25:53 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21512 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:57:01 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA14017; 4 Jul 95 14:53:19 CDT (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id OAA14014 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:53:19 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507041953.OAA14014@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 14:53:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 512 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Since these things are usually posted to every mailing list, I wonder > if we could get the cooperation of a couple of lists near the top > and bottom of the PAML list.... This isn't a bad idea. I could put in dummy entries aliased to me at the top and bottom of the PAML. Sort of like alt.1d. It wouldn't have worked in this case. They were going alphabetically by *domain*. I couldn't tell if they were using the PAML (or if they were, what version of it) since all the lists I saw were out of whack. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 4 18:34:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18989 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:12:54 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com (chinacat.unicom.com [192.108.105.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA18984 for ; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:12:50 -0700 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id UAA02105; Tue, 4 Jul 1995 20:11:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199507050111.UAA02105@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads To: moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 20:11:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu In-Reply-To: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> from "Keith Moore" at Jul 4, 95 03:21:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1223 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore writes: > The message was sent from email.mt.gov (161.7.101.255), so you might > try sending mail to the postmaster there. > > Some of us who are reasonably close by might care to telephone them: > > State of Montana (MT-DOM) > Department of Administration > RM 22 Mitchell Bldg. > Helena, MT 59620 This is going to be a tough one. I talked to Ron Heilman, their security officer, this morning. Their Internet guy is on vacation, and all this guy knows is mainframes. I warned him that he had two issues to work on: one was locating the cracker and the other was dealing with irate mail. It appears that email.mt.gov is not a real computer, but a toy gateway (with a broken IP stack to boot). I'm not real optimistic the machine will have sufficient capability to trace the problem, and I don't know if they've got the expertise to do so. The message sent to my list was rejected. The SMTP MAIL FROM: was illegal and sendmail bounced it. -- Chip Rosenthal They said I was just a dumb cowpoke. Unicom Systems Development I didn't want to make a fuss. - Robert Earl Keen For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 5 07:14:15 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA02462 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 06:59:25 -0700 Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA02450 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 06:59:17 -0700 Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm940906)) id AA20067; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 09:54:53 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 09:54:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Avi Hyman To: "Henry W. Miller" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) In-Reply-To: <00992D63.F76A8156.103@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 2003 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner > "copyright" the the contents of the list, I find this to be a very touchy issue. I personally moderate 6 lists on three different hosts and serve as the assistant list software manager for our site. I believe that voluntary lists (those people join voluntarily) should vest copyright control with the poster, not the list or the owner, but that posting implies consent for re-use, so long as the identity of the poster is retained, including the owner, if the owner is the poster. Furthermore, I think the list, as a group, vests authority for administrative duties in the owner (for example, dealing with spammers). I am a member of the H-Net cartel, a fairly significant consortium of lists in the Humanities. There, as a condition for joining the cartel, listowners "turn-over" copyright control to the consortium. This is important, because potentially important documents (such as compiled syllabi) are being produced - who owns them? While the owner may have given up that right to the cartel, I question whether or not the owner ever had the right in the first place. I think that the answer is no. Folks, we have the potential to publicly discuss this issue as list owners. While we may not settle the matter, I think the proceedings of this thread should be compiled as a discussion paper. If you all don't mind, I would like to keep copies of the notes and compile them. I look forward to reading your points of view. Avi > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 5 23:04:30 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA11473 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:53:05 -0700 Received: from hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca (hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca [128.100.102.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA11468 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 22:53:02 -0700 Received: from localhost by hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <24075>; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 01:52:18 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 01:52:03 -0400 From: Chris Siebenmann Message-Id: <95Jul6.015218edt.24075@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The latest round has started up; this time (judging from what was hit both locally and at sites I'm talking to live) it appears to have been using a list of lists generated by querying Majordomos for their list of lists and accumulating the results. Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and looking them over one jumped right out at me: Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of this spam, hence the jumping) I'm willing to make our full data (all other two queries) available to people for merging and commonality-checking. I'm (obviously) interested to know if anyone else has seen queries from this particular address. - cks [I have bcc:'d a number of affected sites on the off-chance that they aren't on the list-managers mailing list; my apologies to postmasters that are on and are getting it twice.] From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 00:34:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA14163 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:05:42 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA14156 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:05:38 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id AAA08847; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Chris Siebenmann cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round In-Reply-To: <95Jul6.015218edt.24075@hawkwind.utcs.utoronto.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jul 1995, Chris Siebenmann wrote: > Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users > have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and > looking them over one jumped right out at me: > > Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Yup, I've got one too. Jun 29 16:03:21 taz.hyperreal.com majordomo[28002] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists All of my lists were hit today. Fortunately I've got only-list-subscriber-can-post turned on for most of them. Scary thing though - it would be *too* much more coding to forge a subscribe, and then an unsubscribe, to a list to make sure the spam gets through. It's at that point that I break down and pull the ethernet out of the back of the machine for good! :) > (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of > this spam, hence the jumping) Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 00:36:05 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA14205 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:08:11 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA14199; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:08:06 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:07:48 -0800 To: Peter Bowyer , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Postmasters Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:39 PM 7/4/95, Peter Bowyer wrote: >This query was sparked off by a recent comment from Keith Moore about >mailing Postmaster if mail bounces... > >I have singularly little luck getting any reaction at all from postmasters >in general. I regularly mail a polite note if mail bounces for a >system-related or incomprehensible reason, but rarely do I even get a reply, >let alone a promise to fix. > >OK, so if a site's mail is bouncing, the postmaster is probably up to his >neck in crocodiles already. But it really doesn't take a minute to fire off >a reply which says 'Thanks, we're on to it', does it? But it's not just a minute to answer your message; it's a minute each for each of the tens/hundreds/thousands of messages that have come in from sites all over the net telling them about the problem. Better to just fix the problem in the first place! >Any other experiences? Should I just not bother ? It's nice to let them know they have a problem (sometimes you're the first), but don't expect a response. -Brent ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For info about the Internet Security Firewalls Tutorial and a schedule of upcoming dates, please send email to Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Brent Chapman Great Circle Associates Brent@GreatCircle.COM 1057 West Dana Street +1 415 962 0841 Mountain View, CA 94041 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 08:05:41 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA11326 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 07:39:47 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA11315 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 07:39:39 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:16 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:15 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:38:15 +0200 Message-Id: <199507061438.6620.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Brian Behlendorf on Thu, 6 Jul 1995 00:04:55 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Chris Siebenmann] | (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of | this spam, hence the jumping) [Brian Behlendorf] | Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from | physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. Yep, that's the second round :-( My two lists were hit again yesterday. The list of recipients was the exact same (biomch-l, eu20, slade, dewy-fields, crossfire), so I first thought it was a clueless user hitting R instead of D. Headers (note the "nice" Subject -- is it a virus? :-) Received: from physics1.byu.edu by HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 05 Jul 95 23:20:17 EDT From: David@wishes.to.remain.anonymous.UA Subject: your romance ad in USSR !" V A U@| Ol (Unverified) The reason for a second round may be that the previous From-address was illegal and hence dropped by some MTA's. UA is Ukraine, incidentally. (At times like this, I wish I was using something other than Sendmail alias lists :-() Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 09:29:00 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA15517 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:41:25 -0700 Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA15510 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 08:41:21 -0700 Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id RAA16683; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:40:40 +0200 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA05236; Thu, 6 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200 Message-Id: <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> From: Per Starback To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199507041921.PAA06476@wilma.cs.utk.edu> (message from Keith Moore on Tue, 04 Jul 1995 15:21:48 -0400) Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk When my list got hit by the "Ukrainian spam" the envelope said "From @emcb008x.utah.edu Tue Jul 4 01:10:35 1995" (and the Return-Path: was the same). That instance was sent To: kaw@swi.psy.uva.nl, mindmap@marccri.marc.cri.nz, disney-comics@minsk.docs.uu.se, VEGGIE@maths.bath.ac.uk, ZForum@comlab.ox.ac.uk (Disney-comics is "my" list.) > | Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from > | physics1.byu.edu, routed through Harvard. > > Yep, that's the second round :-( My two lists were hit again Hm, how many versions/rounds are there? The pkd-list was attacked shortly after mine and I compared notes with the administrator of that list then (Hi, are you here Tom?) and he said that > This one came through email.mt.us, which is the Montana department > of transportation (as far as I can tell). -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 09:50:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA17944 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:28:33 -0700 Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA17932 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:28:28 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA17257; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 11:27:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199507061627.LAA17257@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Chris Siebenmann , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 1995 00:04:55 PDT." Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:27:33 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think we have a winner... Jun 29 17:53:49 antares.mcs.anl.gov majordomo[14943] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists The only other thought that it might be is: Jun 29 23:41:19 antares.mcs.anl.gov majordomo[17658] {wwwpilot@world.std.com (Software Tool And Die)} lists It appears that they have a central list of lists or something. They've been doing lists for some time now. Not sure to what end. --gene Brian Behlendorf made the following keystrokes: >On Thu, 6 Jul 1995, Chris Siebenmann wrote: >> Our Majordomo server logs such queries; only three external users >> have asked for a list of all lists from us since June 14th, and >> looking them over one jumped right out at me: >> >> Jun 29 21:19:27 XX majordomo[23402] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} l > ists > >Yup, I've got one too. > >Jun 29 16:03:21 taz.hyperreal.com majordomo[28002] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu >(R Brock)} lists > >All of my lists were hit today. Fortunately I've got >only-list-subscriber-can-post turned on for most of them. Scary thing >though - it would be *too* much more coding to forge a subscribe, and >then an unsubscribe, to a list to make sure the spam gets through. It's >at that point that I break down and pull the ethernet out of the back of >the machine for good! :) > >> (a public lab in utah.edu was the nominal origin of the first round of >> this spam, hence the jumping) > >Funny - the headers looked like it was coming from physics1.byu.edu, >routed through Harvard. > > Brian > > From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 10:04:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18724 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:50:45 -0700 Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA18719 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 09:50:40 -0700 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA00633; Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:53:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:53:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: Per Starback cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, my lists have not been hit yet, but one of the lists I am on (tcp-group) just got hit earleir today and I just checked the headers and they were from physics1.byu.edu. Even though the spammer asked not to, I sent a message to the postmaster at the site asking them to look into this (and including the message). I do have one question, though that was sparked by this guy trying to remain anonymous. If somebody had an account on anon.penet.fi anonymous server, can they send messages to mailing lists using that anonymous id? It seems like a perfect way for an anonymous spammer to spam mailing lists and remain anonymous if it is possible to do. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 13:05:51 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA29701 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:59:27 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA29690 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:59:21 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA08309 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:59:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 15:59:43 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199507061959.PAA08309@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: use of anon.penet.fi to spam lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I do have one question, though that was sparked by this guy trying to >remain anonymous. If somebody had an account on anon.penet.fi anonymous >server, can they send messages to mailing lists using that anonymous id? >It seems like a perfect way for an anonymous spammer to spam mailing >lists and remain anonymous if it is possible to do. Back during the Great Anonymous Server Debate, Johan Helsingus (the admin of anon.penet.fi) stated that such abuses would lead to revocation of anonymous access. I suspect, however, that one such spam would be suc- cessful before Johan could clamp down. --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 14:35:18 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA05415 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:28:57 -0700 Received: from vanbc.wimsey.com (vanbc.wimsey.com [204.191.160.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA05410 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:28:53 -0700 Received: by vanbc.wimsey.com (Smail-3.1.29.1 #29) id m0sTySg-0002OzC; Thu, 6 Jul 95 14:27 PDT Message-Id: From: jhenders@wimsey.com (John Henders) Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round (fwd) To: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 14:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, postmaster@cc.utah.edu In-Reply-To: from "Bryan Thorp" at Jul 6, 95 05:24:27 am Cc: jhenders@wimsey.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24me1 PGP2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1314 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From bthorp Thu Jul 6 05:51:42 1995 > Return-Path: > Received: by vanbc.wimsey.com > (Smail-3.1.29.1 #29) id m0sTqP7-0002OBC; Thu, 6 Jul 95 05:51 PDT > To: jhenders > Subject: Re: The latest USSR personals ad spam/mail fraud round (fwd) > From: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca (Bryan Thorp) > Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 05:24:27 -0700 > Reply-To: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca (Bryan Thorp) > Message-ID: > X-Mailer: Yarn 0.78 with YESX 0.20.B0509 > Lines: 43 > > John, Thought you might be interested in this thread from the > "list-managers" mailing list... I couldn't find any subscribes > by R. Brock or anybody at utah.edu... One of my users forwarded this to me, and I'd like to confirm that R Brock also did a lists command here, three times. Jun 29 23:00:12 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[22392] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 29 23:05:24 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[22777] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 30 01:16:02 vanbc.wimsey.com majordomo[4004] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists -- John Henders BOFH Wimsey Information Systems. Vancouver's original internet service provider. Dialup SL/IP and PPP for Mac, DOS and Windows Voice: (604) 257-1111, FAX: (604) 257-1110 From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 16:34:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA10921 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:16:44 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA10916 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 16:16:39 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA22452 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:46:46 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA11323; 6 Jul 95 17:34:04 CDT (Thu) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id RAA11320 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:34:03 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507062234.RAA11320@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: A couple humourous items To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 17:34:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 921 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Got this bounce from my mailing list this morning: > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 421 arts.usask.ca (TCP)... Deferred: Connection timed out during user open with arts.usask.ca > While talking to strata3d.com: > >>> RCPT To: > <<< 550 ... User unknown: Not a typewriter > 550 strata3d.com!adrinr... User unknown Gee, they certainly are making typewriters more intelligent these days. This one was posted to another list I subscribe to: From owner-chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu Thu Jul 6 12:40:12 1995 X-Listname: Hot! Hot! Hot! Sender: owner-chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 11:38:00 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: To: chile-heads@bunny.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu SIGNOFF Chile-Heads SUBSCRIBE Chile-Heads-Digest QUIT From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 6 18:35:47 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA16108 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:12:43 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA16103 for ; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:12:40 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA21252; Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:12:37 -0400 Message-Id: <9507070112.AA21252@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jul 95 17:40:20 +0200." <9507061540.AA05236@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 06 Jul 95 21:12:34 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Hm, how many versions/rounds are there? The pkd-list was attacked >shortly after mine and I compared notes with the administrator of that >list then (Hi, are you here Tom?) and he said that > >> This one came through email.mt.us, which is the Montana department >> of transportation (as far as I can tell). My list is not managed by majordomo. It's managed by hand and it was hit from email.mt.us on Monday evening. The To: line was: To: SII@moumee.calstatela.edu, cisco@spot.colorado.edu, orienteering@graphics.cornell.edu, sca-caid@ecst.csuchico.edu, sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 03:04:52 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA06553 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 02:47:37 -0700 Received: from mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk (mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk [137.205.148.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id CAA06538 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 02:47:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:46:12 +0100 From: Ian Dickinson Message-Id: <17080.199507070946@mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Received: by mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk id KAA17080; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:46:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM "List-Managers-Digest V4 #138" (Jul 7, 1:00am) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: } Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads > My list is not managed by majordomo. It's managed by hand and it was > hit from email.mt.us on Monday evening. The To: line was: > > To: SII@moumee.calstatela.edu, cisco@spot.colorado.edu, > orienteering@graphics.cornell.edu, sca-caid@ecst.csuchico.edu, > sca-west@ecst.csuchico.edu > > I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a > perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the > PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. IMHO, It's certainly more complicated than that. My suspicion is that the spammer got the PAML, and then sent majordomo "lists" commands to each server it found (and probably the equivalent listserv commands etc etc) and spammed everything it found. I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit is probably because you don't run a MLM. For info, I've seen these particular commands logged from the likely perp: Jun 30 02:14:40 thistle majordomo[29767] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists Jun 30 17:02:10 thistle majordomo[5091] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} help Jul 04 23:27:21 thistle majordomo[1238] {richard brock } lists I haven't seen the last one mentioned here yet. Cheers, -- Ian 'Vato' Dickinson [ID17] - Unix/Networking/Deviancy Support the ZLDF! cudep@csv.warwick.ac.uk - MIME mail welcome - vato@limpid.org.uk Click here. echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx]sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq' | dc From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 03:35:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA08377 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:33:15 -0700 Received: from rye.city.ac.uk (rye.city.ac.uk [138.40.11.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA08371 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:33:03 -0700 Received: from paddington.city.ac.uk by rye.city.ac.uk with SMTP (PP) id <06792-0@rye.city.ac.uk>; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:32:08 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:32:04 +0100 (BST) From: "R.M. Hopkins" X-Sender: sl338@paddington To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <17080.199507070946@mutton.csv.warwick.ac.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 926 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The same guy has shown up at our site as well shortly before we got bombed. Has anyone contacted the sys admin at his site ? Richard On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Ian Dickinson wrote: > On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: > For info, I've seen these particular commands logged from the likely perp: > > Jun 30 02:14:40 thistle majordomo[29767] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} lists > Jun 30 17:02:10 thistle majordomo[5091] {rsb3958@u.cc.utah.edu (R Brock)} help > Jul 04 23:27:21 thistle majordomo[1238] {richard brock } lists > .-----------------------------------------------------------------------------. R M Hopkins Web Consultant Tel: 0831 705016 (24 hr) City University Computing Services Email: R.M.Hopkins@city.ac.uk London EC1V OHB http://www.city.ac.uk/~sl338 `-----------------------------------------------------------------------------' From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 07:07:12 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA16182 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:47:12 -0700 Received: from geomag.gly.fsu.edu (geomag.gly.fsu.edu [128.186.10.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA16177 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 06:47:09 -0700 Received: by geomag.gly.fsu.edu (5.65/31geomag) id AA12864; Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:46:10 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 09:46:10 -0400 From: Ted Zateslo Message-Id: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ian Dickinson writes: > > On Jul 6, 9:00pm, mkc@graphics.cornell.edu wrote: > > > > I'm starting to suspect someone just bombed through the PAML with a > > perl script or something. The other list I run was taken out of the > > PAML at my request a few months ago and it was not hit. > > IMHO, It's certainly more complicated than that. > My suspicion is that the spammer got the PAML, and then sent majordomo > "lists" commands to each server it found (and probably the equivalent > listserv commands etc etc) and spammed everything it found. > I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that > is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit > is probably because you don't run a MLM. This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands to all the usual addresses at each site. Ted Zateslo, keeper of the brass musicians' list zateslo@gly.fsu.edu From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 08:35:09 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19407 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:19:38 -0700 Received: from wto11.tor.on.doe.ca ([142.97.226.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA19389 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:19:20 -0700 Received: by wto11.tor.on.doe.ca (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA16356; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:18:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Jean Charest To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: ARGH: meet women of the former USSR through romance ads In-Reply-To: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Ted Zateslo wrote: > > This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed > in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and > have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, > of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the > majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is > unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands > to all the usual addresses at each site. A newbie question. What is PAML? How did your lists get on PAML? Thanks .------------------------------------------------------. | Jean Charest | | Atmospheric Environment Service | | Environment Canada | '------------------------------------------------------` From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 08:38:11 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19716 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:27:48 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA19711 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:27:44 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sUFMR-000FR0C; Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:30 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: the romance ad spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:30:34 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9507071346.AA12864@geomag.gly.fsu.edu> from "Ted Zateslo" at Jul 7, 95 09:46:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1918 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ted Zateslo wrote, | This sounds right, based on my experience. I run one list listed | in the PAML, and it is run by hand. I have installed majordomo, and | have a test list running (just for debugging the thing), which is, | of course, not on the PAML. The hand-run list never got hit. the | majordomo list was hit -- three times! -- even though it is | unknown to the world. The spammer must have sent "lists" commands | to all the usual addresses at each site. That doesn't jibe with my experience. I administer both my lists by hand, and no Majordomo or LISTSERV installation should be able to tell you about them. Both, though, are in the PAML and both are in the SRI list, and each was hit twice. The first time to each, the From_ line read "Postmaster", so (thanks, SRB) it kicked out. The second time it went out on my unmoderated list; on the one I moderate, I just tossed it. After the second incident I put a trap in for any reappearances, and the trap caught one mailing, but it wasn't from them. A member of another list that got hit with the same copy groupreplied (or replyalled) to it, saying he didn't care that they had said "no flames, please;" they deserved to be scorched and he was going to do it. He sent it out to all the lists in the To: line (including the one he belongs to, so he got his own insults back) and the phony return address that "David@anonymous" used the second time. It didn't reach the guilty party but it harmed all the victims yet again (except those on my list because I had put in the trap). I informed him of what he had done. Here he was lecturing someone else for carelessness and selfishness in addressing unsolicited mail by committing the exact same mistake himself. No doubt there is a nasty flame from him denying any error waiting in my mail on that site. Anyhow, I'm surprised that Ted's manually administered but publicized list was spared. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 10:07:58 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA24936 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:51:01 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com (news5.crl.com [165.113.1.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA24924 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:50:57 -0700 Received: from nbi.UUCP by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA06410 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 7 Jul 1995 09:38:14 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:23:38 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Spam and the PAML From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Message-Id: <69mV8c1w165w@nbi.com> Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:20:40 EDT Organization: A Little Fluffy Cloud Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ian Dickinson writes: > I only run one list that is listed in the PAML, but every list that > is "public" got spammed. The fact that your non-PAML list wasn't hit > is probably because you don't run a MLM. For what it's worth, I run three mailing lists. All are public. All are run on Majordomo. None are on PAML. None have received the Russian Women message. L. --------------------------------------------------------------- *leigh@nbi.com As a matter of fact, I _do_ speak for nbi.com.* "Consequences, schmonsequences, as long as I'm rich." -Daffy Duck From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 11:38:56 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA29653 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:13:04 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA29648 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:13:01 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA14276; Fri, 7 Jul 95 11:42:47 -0700 Message-Id: <9507071842.AA14276@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 11:42:46 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: 8707C652 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 8707C652 From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 10:48:29 TZ Subject: ListMaster and other tools X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950707174857MTP[01.00.00]00000122-470 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Everyone, Thanks to Norm Aleks, I've just heard about a very interesting tool, ListMaster, and another tool that Norm mentioned that is being developed by David Baker (at Brown). These tools seem to integrate the process of subscribing to mailing lists and I'm very curious to how they work and what exactly they do. If anyone has any information on either of these tools I would be very interested. Thanks!! Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com P.S. - I know that I post a lot of questions to this mailing list and I apologize if I am annoying anyone. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 12:04:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA29521 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:11:07 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA29494 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:11:01 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA27806; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 14:11:02 -0400 Message-Id: <9507071811.AA27806@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 12:20:40 EDT." <69mV8c1w165w@nbi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 14:10:58 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >For what it's worth, I run three mailing lists. All are public. All >are run on Majordomo. None are on PAML. None have received the Russian >Women message. OK, so he didn't find your majordomo server because it didn't have any public pointers to it. I think we're getting side-tracked here. Clearly this turd is using whatever resources he can get his hands on. Let's stop concentrating so much on reverse-engineering his spam script and focus on tracking down his butt and getting it spanked. My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" David@wishes.to.remain.anonymous.UA. I received no response from mt.gov when I wrote to them. Has anyone managed to make contact with an administrator at one of the sites David is posting through yet to find out what's in their logs? Has anyone gotten any respose from the Utah admins where the majordomo prods originated from? -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 12:37:01 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA02618 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:30:55 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA02609 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:30:52 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA21789; Fri, 7 Jul 95 13:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 13:00:38 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: BE663F13 X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: BE663F13 From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 12:27:20 TZ Subject: Mail bouncing queries? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950707192750MTP[01.00.00]00000122-693 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi Again! I have yet another question for everybody. From the messages that I read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) support this feature. Are there ways to query the mailing lists to find out if they are actually using this feature (ie. bouncing mail from non-subscribers)? Any responses much appreciated!! Thanks, Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 13:51:39 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05721 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:25:48 -0700 Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05704 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:25:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA28303; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:25:42 -0400 Message-Id: <9507072025.AA28303@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: Paul Haas Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 07 Jul 95 16:02:21 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 16:25:40 -0400 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas writes: >> My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday >> evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" > >Does your mail delivery agent (sendmail, smail, etc...) log the IP >address? If so what was it? Yes, it was 128.103.60.11 which is harvarda.harvard.edu. I've written to the postmaster there asking for their help in tracking this and emphasizing the fact that it's not just one list but rather a widespread problem. No reply yet. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 14:05:21 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA05173 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:09:04 -0700 Received: from hamjudo.hamjudo.com (hamjudo.com [152.160.58.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA05166 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:08:59 -0700 Received: by hamjudo.hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0sUJbU-0000IOC; Fri, 7 Jul 95 16:02 EDT Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 16:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Haas To: Mitch Collinsworth cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam and the PAML In-Reply-To: <9507071811.AA27806@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 7 Jul 1995, Mitch Collinsworth wrote: > My PAML-advertised, hand-managed list was hit a second time on Wednesday > evening from harvarda.harvard.edu. This one was "From:" Does your mail delivery agent (sendmail, smail, etc...) log the IP address? If so what was it? None of my lists are well publicized so my site didn't get hit. The IP address and time of delivery is frequently sufficient information for the postmaster at the site to narrow it down to a few individuals. I have used Smail logs to track down the the source of joke messages from God@heaven.org and president@whitehouse.gov. (F.Y.I. "God" is getting his undergraduate degree in computer science. The "president" has a day job at a robotics company. Both have promised not to forge email again.) I suspect that this spammer won't be that easy to track down, but at least we would know what site he was really using to send the spams. --- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com Web site: http://www.hamjudo.com Home: (313) 487-8739 Office: (313) 487-4357 Fax: (313) 487-4371 Finger or email my hottub at hottub@hamjudo.com, seen on TV From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 7 17:35:02 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA20737 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:25:38 -0700 Received: from cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov (cvpwpo.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA20672 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:25:14 -0700 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 4; Fri, 07 Jul 1995 17:23:18 PDT Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 17:23:15 PDT From: "Henry W. Miller" To: ahyman@oise.on.ca CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00993016.CF2B9846.4@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"ahyman@oise.on.ca" 5-JUL-1995 06:59:14.64 > Subj: listowner rights (was Architext Bullseye) > On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Henry W. Miller wrote: > > This brings up an interesting point - can the list owner > > "copyright" the the contents of the list, > > I find this to be a very touchy issue. I personally moderate > 6 lists on three different hosts and serve as the assistant list software > manager for our site. I believe that voluntary lists (those people join > voluntarily) should vest copyright control with the poster, not the list > or the owner, but that posting implies consent for re-use, so long as the > identity of the poster is retained, including the owner, if the owner is > the poster. > Furthermore, I think the list, as a group, vests authority for > administrative duties in the owner (for example, dealing with spammers). > > I am a member of the H-Net cartel, a fairly significant consortium of > lists in the Humanities. There, as a condition for joining the cartel, > listowners "turn-over" copyright control to the consortium. This is > important, because potentially important documents (such as compiled > syllabi) are being produced - who owns them? While the owner may have > given up that right to the cartel, I question whether or not the owner > ever had the right in the first place. I think that the answer is no. > > Folks, we have the potential to publicly discuss this issue as list > owners. While we may not settle the matter, I think the proceedings of > this thread should be compiled as a discussion paper. If you all don't > mind, I would like to keep copies of the notes and compile them. > > I look forward to reading your points of view. > Avi > > ____________________________________________________________________ < > > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi, I think I may have mis-stated my point a little bit. What I meant to say was could the list of addresses themselves be copyrighted as a safeguard against spamming, or at least provide a legal recourse against spammers. -HWM From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 10:04:37 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA07721 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 09:46:22 -0700 Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA07710 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 09:46:19 -0700 Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17330 ; for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? To: t-benho@microsoft.com (Benjamin Holz) Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> from "Benjamin Holz" at Jul 7, 95 12:27:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 806 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 12:27:20 TZ ... From the messages that I read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) support this feature. In the course of a discussion of spam defences on the IETF list, there was some support for the following protocol, which I kinda like: posting from subscribers is un-moderated, while posting from non-subscribers is manually screened. The mechanical filter is straightforward, and the moderation burden is not too bad. [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not infeasible.] Al gilman@access.digex.net From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 12:34:34 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA09772 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:16:18 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA09767 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:16:14 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:36 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:35 +0200 Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 21:15:35 +0200 Message-Id: <199507081915.17925.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: asgilman@access.digex.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> (message from Al Gilman on Sat, 8 Jul 1995 12:45:41 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Al Gilman] | [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their | scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not | infeasible.] I'd be interested in hearing how this can be done without inconveniencing normal users. I'm can imagine a system where the new subscriber receives a random password from the list management software, which s/he needs to confirm. This way, we know a valid address for the spammer. Phase two: The spammer subscribes well in advance, and records the address of some other subscriber. The spammer can unsubscribe silently and without attracting attention. When the time for spamming comes, there will be a separate scape goat in each list. A solution to this is to require the use of the password I mentioned earlier in every mail to the list, ie. Subject: (password) Normal subject. The list management software will of course strip off the password, and bounce the message (including the password and information about it). Clearly, the last bit is a nuisance, but tolerable. Are there better methods? Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 13:34:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10674 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:21:18 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA10669 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:21:15 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23546 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:20:38 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA03203 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:20:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199507082020.AA03203@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? In-Reply-To: <199507081645.MAA17330@access2.digex.net> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 95 13:20:37 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > In the course of a discussion of spam defences on the IETF list, > there was some support for the following protocol, which I kinda > like: posting from subscribers is un-moderated, while posting > from non-subscribers is manually screened. The mechanical filter > is straightforward, and the moderation burden is not too bad. Actually, that's the way most closed lists (and most mailing list software) now work. Mail from outsiders is bounced to the maintainer, who can than ditch it or post it. I divert such mail to a special mail folder. If the mail is spam or otherwise unsuitable I just delete it. If it is from a real subscriber using a different address, I post it and then add their address to a special accept list so that future posts from that address get through. If I'm not sure, I email them telling them the posting policy and asking them to give me their subscribed addressed if they are indeed a member already. > [Determined spammers can, of course, add subscribes to their > scripts. The filters to fight this are fancier but not > infeasible.] Well, this is more of a pain for the spammer, since they will then get all the mail from the list till they unsubscribe. I have a very nice filter that will even catch most of these spams: I divert all mail greater than 3000K. Almost all posts to my list are very short, maybe 1 in 50 is longer than this (even the romance spam was longer than this -- and it was short for a spam). If the long post is legitimate, I add a special approve header so it goes through, if not, bye-bye. Such a low limit wouldn't be appropriate for all lists, of course, but it's mightily effective. I use SmartList, but most of the mailing list packages work this way (or can be made to with a little tweaking). -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List http://www.fatfree.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 16:34:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA12453 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 16:10:48 -0700 Received: from unpc.queernet.org (unpc.queernet.org [140.174.78.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA12448 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 16:10:40 -0700 Received: by unpc.queernet.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0sUixK-0001yAC; Sat, 8 Jul 95 16:06 PDT Message-Id: To: Benjamin Holz cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Mail bouncing queries? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 07 Jul 1995 12:27:20 +0700. <9507072000.AA21789@netmail2.microsoft.com> Date: Sat, 08 Jul 1995 16:06:33 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have yet another question for everybody. From the messages that I > read concerning the bouncing of mail from non-subscribers it sounds > like the major servers (ie. listserv, majordomo, listproc, etc.) > support this feature. Are there ways to query the mailing lists to find > out if they are actually using this feature (ie. bouncing mail from > non-subscribers)? > > Any responses much appreciated!! WHY ON EARTH DO YOU CARE? Trying to make it easier to figure out which lists you can spam? --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 18:35:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA15895 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 18:30:39 -0700 Received: from netmail2.microsoft.com (netmail2.microsoft.com [131.107.1.13]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA23672 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 19:00:05 -0700 Received: by netmail2.microsoft.com (5.65/25-eef) id AA14855; Fri, 7 Jul 95 19:29:55 -0700 Message-Id: <9507080229.AA14855@netmail2.microsoft.com> Received: by netmail2 using fxenixd 1.0 Fri, 07 Jul 95 19:29:55 PDT X-Msmail-Message-Id: B781292E X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: B781292E From: Benjamin Holz To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 7 Jul 95 18:57:52 TZ Subject: Administrative messages to the list? X-Msxmtid: red-53-msg950708015834MTP[01.00.00]00000122-1362 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk And yet another question from me today! I was wondering if messages are ever sent out to the lists (managed by any method) concerning the management of the list (ie. list address changes, list name change, etc.) and from what address these messages are sent from. I've been subscribed to a bunch of lists now and I haven't seen any messages like this. Do they happen often? Is it relatively random where they are sent from? Thanks for any responses!! Ben. t-benho@microsoft.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 8 18:37:28 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA15686 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 18:24:23 -0700 Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA02749 for ; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 12:36:10 -0700 Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm940906)) id AA12225; Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:31:56 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:31:56 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avi Hyman, CSG" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: spam alert In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 910 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of my lists was hit today with phony attempts to subscribe. You should all be on the alert for bogus subscriptions from: sheik@SPARTAN.PEI.EDU Mr Sheik twc@CRL.COM Mr Vortex stumble@ELITE.ESCAPE.COM Mr Stumble jimi@NETCOM.COM Mr Fiend root@NEBULA.COM Mr Nimbus dpotter@PANAX.PUNK.NET Mr Potter If they do get through, they'll cause you bounce headaches, so be careful. (thankfully, I caught them first) Avi > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 9 10:04:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00581 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:37:11 -0700 Received: from matrix.eden.com (matrix.eden.com [199.171.21.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA00576 for ; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:37:08 -0700 Received: (kinnaman@localhost) by matrix.eden.com (8.6.12.1/8.6.12.1) id LAA02632; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:36:27 -0500 Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:36:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Ballew Kinnaman To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, Multiple recipients of list LSTSRV-L , Multiple recipients of list LSTOWN-L Subject: Web to Mailing List Interface Security Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mailing List Folks, As owner of the Allergy LISTSERV list, I am very satisfied with David Baker's WWW to mailing list interface (at Brown University), including the security provisions it offers. I have used the LWGATE for three weeks, and have had exactly zero problems. David responded quickly and directly to any questions I've had, and has already worked out every angle I tested him on. [The netspace.org server -was- down a short time a few days ago, but that's life.] Here is the URL: http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate The interface deals with four types of mailing lists: LISTSERV(TM), ListProcessor 6, Majordomo, and SmartList. The hardest part of getting my Allergy list into the LWGATE interface was cutting my list description down to the number of words you're allowed. The rest was easy and done with in under 5 minutes. With regard to the speculation that the recent rash of Mr. Rok, Mr. Shiek subscriptions may have come through the LWGATE I can answer unequivocally: Not one such subscription REQUEST has been sent through the LWGATE to my list. I review *all* LWGATE activity on my list, as a security precaution, and again, I am very pleased with everything about how this interface works. I agree with the suggestion that the Messrs. group is compiling a massive mailing list of good email addresses. They first subscribe, then REVIEW. However, my Allergy list is not interesting to them because 1) it is set to CONFIRM subscriptions and addresses (with a cookie) and 2) the Allergy list refuses requests (other than mine) to REVIEW the list of subscribers. I feel better, now that I've made it clear that LWGATE should not be besmirched for activities which are causing fears in some mailing list folks. David Baker has done a "good thing" (TM) for us, and his work is beyond question in my opinion. 8=]' Pax, Ballew ~ Allergy discussion list owner ~ Y'all Ballew Kinnaman 512/463-9321 ~ subscribe Allergy Your Name ~ come ~ to listserv@tamvm1.tamu.edu ~ visit! From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 11 15:05:22 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08014 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:55:07 -0700 Received: from cueyatl.uam.mx (cueyatl.uam.mx [148.206.100.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA08009 for ; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:55:03 -0700 Received: by cueyatl.uam.mx (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA06199; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:22:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:22:12 -0500 (CDT) From: Rolando Montano To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Req. for help on french and spanish mailing lists Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pardon my sending this to the full list. I am not a member. Does anyone know of a list of spanish or french mailing lists. I have people here who want to find specialized lists in either of those two languages, wether in france/spain or elsewhere. Even listserv, listproc or majordomo addresses will do as a starting point to request a list of lists managed. Please respond directly to my e-mail address since i am not part of this list. Please excuse my sending this to the full list but i had no other point to search. Thankyou. Rolando Montano, mofr6133@cueyatl.uam.mx, Phone (52 5) 724 50 65, Fax (52 5) 724 5172, Autonomous Metropolitan University of Mexico / Xochimilco campus, Masters in Social Psychology / Groups and Institutions, Mexico City. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 11 17:08:53 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14719 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:38:18 -0700 Received: from netcom22.netcom.com (netcom22.netcom.com [192.100.81.136]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA19056 for ; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 20:01:08 -0700 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom22.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id TAA27416; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 19:59:05 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP-KeyLocation: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/dd/ddt/crypto/ddtPGPkey.txt Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 20:00:22 -0700 To: mac-eudora-forum@qualcomm.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Free Discussion vs Word Ownership (Was: Re: ArchiText) Cc: jcr@mcs.com (John C. Rivard) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pardon me for this verbose and slightly on-topic post, but hey, you guys got me started... and John's post was so right-on... anyway, please delete this if you're not interested and I promise to stop now. .................................. cut here .................................. At 6:21 AM 7/6/95, John C. Rivard wrote: >Technically, the individual posters own the copyright on their individual >comments (at least in the United States--when you create something and put >it in "readable" form, it is automatically copyrighted); therefore, >technically, Architext would have to negotiate individually with every >poster in order to *legally* publish their work. It is not sufficient to >get the permission of the list owner, because the act of posting to this >list does not invalidate the copyright of the author. Precisely stated, and well-met. Methinks a little more attention to these small "technical" details is in order. [elided] >Even ignoring the compensation issue, suppose I decide I want to write an >internet book (like we need another one). Then my postings to the list >might become more valuable (yeah, right) and I might not want them >available for free in a searchable index, when I want people to pay $$ to >get them in my book. Will I have to sue to regain control of my copyrighted >work from Architext? Would the courts find that since I didn't complain >when they started archiving it? This harkens back to recent discussions at the conference on Computers, Freedom and Privacy (CFP 95) about who exactly "owns" the record of all laws passed by local, state and federal government legislatures in the US - the archive/transcription company "West Publications" or The People? Amazingly enough, we citizens now get *charged* when we try to obtain copies, records of or even citations from our own system of government from this company - just because they "format" it using their own proprietary system of page indexing. They maintain a monopoly by sending Supreme Court Justices on luxury trips to the Virgin Islands. If you don't believe me, ask Jamie Love and/or send a msg to to subscribe to "tap-info" (Taxpayers Assets Project). If you can't see the relationship between this egregious status quo as concerns the very Law of Our Land (here int eh US at least) and the slow hunter's creep of companies attempting to "lock" content sources on the net for later profit, then I'm wasting electrons. If you can, then you can easily see the slippery effect that casually entering into a fiduciary relationship with a company like Architext represents: if they get enough "locks" on lists, they could end up making even just posting cost you too. A far-fetched rant, you say? Enter Microsoft, stage left. Take a look at the current battle between AOL and Microsoft over NBC's presence. Microsoft recently announced that NBC would "leave" AOL to provide "content" for the Microsoft Network (currently being unbundled from Win96...no comment...). Now, while NBC may indeed have been a pathetic player even on AOL, this nevertheless points to how fierce the fight$ over content will be. Lists like the Eudora Forum(s) may even someday be tossed back and forth *without the knowledge of list-members* by large companies that profit from charging to access to the knowledgebase they represent. Given Qualcomm's appreciation for freeware and free communication, this is unlikely, but it's an example of what could happen if we consent to this sort of thing now. Do *you* think your words/postings are without value to others? Perhaps you do, and you're free (all puns intended, always) to do so, but please don't make that assumption about *my words* for me. OK, I admit I'm incensed, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't prick up your ears for a moment. (Like I said: all puns intended :). >This would probably be something that all posters to the list would have to >agree to ahead of time, i.e., when you subscribe it is made clear that >posting to the list indicates that you give your permission to Architext to >republish your work. Anyone who intends to charge for access to the content of this list in any way/shape/form does NOT have my permission to include MY comments in any commercial archive of the list's postings. Period. If they offer it for free, or offer to share profits based on individual compensation (something I fancy would cost them more than it's worth to them) then that's a different scenario entirely and I might participate. Not bloody likely, though. :) [elided] >* I fear that the copyright issues mentioned above might cause more >knowledgeable users, who have a lot to contribute, to bail out of the list, >diminishing its value I spend a fair amount of time on/behind this list and I know there are at least ten other people who do so too. We do it for free, and for the benefit of the other thousand people who lurk here, but our motives are not to volunteer our time for a for-profit operation. If someone wants to pay me to do this, fine, but personally, that's not why I came here. If you prefer to be able to search our wisdom for solutions instead of asking us directly, then just buy our book and meanwhile watch this list shrivel up. A vote for Architext is a subtle insult to anyone who believes in this software enough to spend time answering your questions here for free. If it comes to a commercial service doing something I can already do myself, I could still lurk the list, but I'd probably lose interest and go start another list (or just focus on a newsgroup). Whether or not anyone misses me is beside the point. People who tend toward volunteerism also often bring a certain positive fanaticism to their work. This is the basis of a lot or wonderful resources on the Internet - the ones that commercial ventures already expoit for profit a lot - which began as an academic/research thing. It may slowly become more and more Babellian, but not because I helped. This list, and pardon my waxing poetic here, has a certain pure, almost academic, spirit. Qualcomm itself doesn't even voilate this with lots of commercial postings and advertising (they do us the kindness of using another list for that, which you can choose to ignore). Those of us who use the Eudora software effectively try to help other people make the most of it and there's a free (keyword!) exchange of ideas. I share and learn a lot here myself, thanks to guys like Steve, Robert, Peter, Michel, Joe, Michael and Thomas among many others. If this list were to become another tired old info-sock that merely prostituted itself so that people with small hard drives and little net.history can pay to search it on a word now and then, it changes the whole ethos of the thing, imho. >* Call me an old netter, but the idea of charging for something that has >traditionally been done for free (archiving/indexing mailing lists) kind of >irks me. I know that these things cost money, and I know that money has to >come from somewhere, but it seems like the contributors (all posters to the >list) should be able to access it for free, after all they created all the >content. Bingo, you old netter. :) There are mechanisms already extant that let you search a list-archive, beginning with keeping a list-archive on your own disk like I do. Mine only takes up about 12 MB on my disk. No big deal. >* I don't understand the value-added of archiving such a noisy list. [elided] Perhaps we can arrange for a Web interface for the list. Then, those who wanted to could browse/search it with Netscape and CGI scripts. Cypherpunks (an much higher-volume list) uses this method, as do other lists. >Sorry to be such a wet blanket, I just wanted to bring up possible >downsides (and also point out some of the copyright vs. the Net issues that >we will be seeing more of) You're not a wet blanket, John. These are real, serious issues of great import that many people these days do not seem willing (or gnat's-MTV-attention-span *able*) to consider...even though, by rushing in blindly with no thought to who's profiting and what they're signing away, they may someday find themselves swimming in a totally commercialized (and ruined by a billboard-on- every-horizon) Internet. I'm glad that some people still care enough about the educational and altruistic core ethic of the net to speak out as you do. Anyone with any sense of History will tell these Architext people "thanks but no thanks, we'll do it ourselves for free" and ask them to move on and parasite off someone else. Anyone with any sense of respect for privacy, copyright and public-mindedness will also pass the word on them along to others who might need warning. I'm not anti-commercial. Far from it. $) There are many wonderful, profitable and appropriate activities for commercially-minded people on the Internet who know how to stand on their corner and shake some value out of what they've got to offer (not just by pimping others). I applaud their profit motives and encourage them to develop their own content (for a change). However, when entreprenurial zeal causes the Internet to "feed on its own young" in order to maintain an impossible rate of growth so that avaricious investors can see steep profit graphs - and when well-meaning people are sandbagged by silver-tongued carpetnetters and carelessly hand over basic principles of authorship and free association for a bottle of patent medicine - then something is very, very wrong in Mudville. dave ______________________________________________________________________________ "It's not a question of 'underdeveloped' nations catching up with the West, it's a question of the ethics of _overdeveloped_ nations with respect to those trying to achieve an appropriate standard of living." -"Third World" diplomat addressing the United Nations A little bonus note for those interested: .................................. cut here .................................. Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 17:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: [elided] Subject: Privacy Conference Announcement CALL FOR PAPERS for a Conference on Technological Assaults on Privacy, April 18-20, 1996 at the Rochester Institute of Technol- ogy, Rochester, New York. We are interested in a wide variety of issues regarding privacy that have arisen from recent technologi- cal advances--the capacity to eavesdrop, the debate regarding the Clipperchip, the capacity to create profiles of individuals for marketing purposes, and so on. Our concern is that we have a wide-ranging look at the state of assaults on privacy currently, in all its manifestations in our lives. The Conference will be interdisciplinary. Participants will have 30 minutes to give their presentation, with comments and discus- sion for another 30 to 40 minutes. Papers will be available for the audience. Papers should be single-spaced, suitable for xeroxing. Please send a copy of your paper to Prof. Wade Robison, Department of Philosophy, Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY 14623. Drafts should be postmarked by February 1, 1996. For additional information, contact Prof. Robison by e-mail at privacy@rit.edu, by FAX at (716) 475-7120, or by phone at (716) 475-6643. If you are interested in commenting or chairing a session, you should contact Prof. Robison. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 11 19:35:06 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA23389 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 19:16:35 -0700 Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA23384; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 19:16:27 -0700 Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm940906)) id AA02673; Tue, 11 Jul 1995 22:12:05 -0400 Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 22:12:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Avi Hyman, CSG" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: bogus subscriptions and bounces In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII content-length: 1337 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There has been a recent wave of bogus subscriptions to numerous lists. In conjunction with the computer centres at UIC and MSU, we have concluded that these attempts at subscription are coming from Netscape users on network computers who have the ability to create false return addresses in the preferences menu of that software package. Both Majordomo and Listserv have the ability to set lists to "approval needed' settings. While this may prove burdensome to the individual list owner, it will give the owner the chance to screen incoming subscription attempts. From a manager's perspective, the worst that will happen is increased bounces, however, one recent attack on the H-Net consortium of lists proved that multiple attacks from the same user can occur rapidly and cause mail delay problems. Good luck with your lists and software, Avi Hyman, list software manager, OISE > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Specialist ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2763 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 12 05:34:45 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA08894 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 05:23:24 -0700 Received: from aspensys (aspensys.aspensys.com [198.77.70.104]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA08889 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 05:23:21 -0700 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA17907; Wed, 12 Jul 1995 08:20:26 +0500 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpinet.aspensys.com id AA805562424 Wed, 12 Jul 95 08:20:24 EST Date: Wed, 12 Jul 95 08:20:24 EST From: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Meritt, Jim) Message-Id: <9506128055.AA805562424@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: PC based content-length: 66 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Are there PC-based list manager tools? Jim Meritt From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 14 06:35:32 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA08276 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 14 Jul 1995 06:08:00 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA08271 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 1995 06:07:56 -0700 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:06:43 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:06:42 +0200 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:06:42 +0200 Message-Id: <199507141306.16587.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9506128055.AA805562424@smtpinet.aspensys.com> (jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com) Subject: Re: PC based Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Jim Meritt] | Are there PC-based list manager tools? A lot of people use Majordomo or SmartList to handle lists on their PC's. You'd have to install one of NetBSD/FreeBSD/Linux/BSD OS/AIX/ Solaris/NEXTSTEP/SCO/Unixware/etc. first, of course. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 17 10:24:46 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00200 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:58:14 -0700 Received: from chipsworld.bridge.net (chipsworld.bridge.net [204.253.4.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA00195; Mon, 17 Jul 1995 09:58:10 -0700 Received: (from chipper@localhost) by chipsworld.bridge.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA14213; Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:51:54 -0400 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 12:51:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Chiapusio To: Brent Chapman cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Re: Mailing list Manager statistics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 30 Jun 1995, Brent Chapman wrote: > At 3:22 PM 6/30/95, Chris Chiapusio wrote: > >oaky, next question. > > > >I'm currently connected to UUNET also, How do i configure my mailoing > >lists to respond in this manner, and do i need UUNET's permission? > > It depends on your sendmail.cf file. Basicly, what you need to do is find > the place (or places) in ruleset 0 (or rulesets called by ruleset 0) where > it decides what mailer to use, what host to connect to, and what address to > hand that host. You need to replace that line or lines with versions that > always opens an SMTP connection to one of the UUNET mail machines (I use > relay1.uu.net; the way their MX records are set up, this fails over to one > of their other relay machines if relay1 is down) and then passes the whole > address to them. I winder if anyone would be willing to mail me a copy of thier sendmail.cf, because i've looked through mine and ORA Sendmail and i can't seem to find some thing that sound quite right... TIA chipperz ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher John Chiapusio BridgeNet Network Administrator http://www.bridge.net 100 South Biscayne Blvd. chipper@bridge.net Miami, FL 33131 aka Electric Asp (EA) http://cwww.bridge.net 305.374.3031 GCM d--- H+ s+:-- g- p1 au+ a- w+ v-(?*) C+++ UL++++$ P++$>+++ L++$ 3E---- N++ K- W--- M--- !V po Y+ t+ 5 !j R G? tv-- b+ D+ B--- e* u* h(-*) f r !n y++ "The whole world is about three drinks behind." -- Humphrey Bogart ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 20 19:59:57 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA07692 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:41:18 -0700 Received: from UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU (utepvm.utep.edu [129.108.1.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA07669; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:41:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199507210241.TAA07669@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from physics1.byu.edu by UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Thu, 20 Jul 95 20:40:31 MDT Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:43:49 -0700 To: gca-announce@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-announce@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-docs@GreatCircle.COM From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Not to long ago, I posted a message re: meeting women of the former soviet union through romance ads. In August, Olga will travel to Moscow from her home in Kiev, Ukraine. In Moscow, Olga will have a much easier and cost efficient means to place your personal romance ad throughout Russia. Last week I received the following from Olga: "I have already sent your ad to the papers in such towns: Moscow, St. Petersburg, Vladimir, Kazan. At nearest future I will send your ad to the paper in some more 12 towns of Russia, where papers are published. Some times (in winter, spring & now) I placed your ad in other papers, but they are not most popular paper in Moscow and some large cities of Russia. Besides, I am continuing to place your ad in papers of Ukraine. I promise to place your ad in some other papers when I will come to Moscow in August. I am glad that you have received fairly many letters from Russian & Ukrainian girls and I think you will received some more ones and will find your ideal in my country soon. I thank you very much ones more for your kindness & your help. My best wishes, Olga" This isn't a scam - call it panhandling if you want. . . I sent her $40 or $50 and I've received over 45 responses. Unlike placing romance ads in the U.S., women from the former USSR respond. Although one would guess the are doing so in the hopes of American citizenship, I haven't found it so. Olga lives in Kiev, Ukraine (population 3 million) and will travel to Moscow in August to visit her father. If you were to send a letter this week, she would receive it in time. The population of Moscow is 10 million -- (3 times the size of Los Angeles.) Feel free to send a letter and ask her your questions. She will be happy to respond. Olga's address: Ukraine Kiev 253121 Dekabristov Street 5 - 178 Olga Kozmina I am posting anonymously because of the flames and volume of inquiries that would result otherwise. I think those who are truely interested will take the time to write. _____________________________________________________________________________ To: probable flamer Subject: polite note Although Olga has never seen a newsgroup nor heard of "net-etiquette," she believes that offering lonely singles the possibility of romance exceeds the cost of angering those who feel the net shouldn't be used in this fashion. IHA (I humbly ask) that you not flame the postmaster of this site. peace. . . From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 20 21:22:40 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA09084 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 20:40:01 -0700 Received: from molly.cs.monash.edu.au (molly.cs.monash.edu.au [130.194.64.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA09078 for ; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 20:39:57 -0700 Received: (from acb@localhost) by molly.cs.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.9) id NAA03282 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:38:34 +1000 From: Andrew C Bulhak Message-Id: <199507210338.NAA03282@molly.cs.monash.edu.au> Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:38:34 +1000 (EST) Reply-To: acb@cs.monash.edu.au X-Life-The-Universe-And-Everything: 42 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 5261 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Looks like the spammer has struck again. This time, he's coming via UCSF. The headers are: >From owner-majtest@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Fri Jul 21 13:11:38 1995 Received: from gimli.cs.monash.edu.au (gimli.cs.monash.edu.au [130.194.64.60]) b y molly.cs.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA02699 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:11:32 +1000 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au [130.194.9.1]) by gi mli.cs.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA13669 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:11:09 +1000 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6. 4) id NAA25591 for majtest-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:04:00 +1000 Received: from UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU (ucsfvm.ucsf.EDU [192.35.221.1]) by yoyo.cc.monas h.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) with SMTP id MAA23980; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:46:34 +1000 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:46:34 +1000 Message-Id: <199507210246.MAA23980@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> Received: from physics1.byu.edu by UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R1) with TCP; Thu, 20 Jul 95 19:44:28 PDT To: fumbling-towards-ecstasy@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, majtest@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, sca-lochac@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, lunch-bunch@xx.zko.dec.com, moore-l@xx.zko.dec.com >From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua Subject: letter from Olga! =) The body of the message is reproduced below. Anyone want to track him down? [romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua] > From owner-majtest@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au Fri Jul 21 13:11:38 1995 > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 12:46:34 +1000 > Message-Id: <199507210246.MAA23980@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au> > To: fumbling-towards-ecstasy@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, > majtest@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, sca-lochac@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au, > lunch-bunch@xx.zko.dec.com, moore-l@xx.zko.dec.com > From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua > Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) > Sender: owner-majtest@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au > Precedence: bulk > X-Listname: majtest > > Not to long ago, I posted a message re: meeting women of the former > soviet union through romance ads. > > In August, Olga will travel to Moscow from her home in Kiev, Ukraine. > In Moscow, Olga will have a much easier and cost efficient means to place > your personal romance ad throughout Russia. > > Last week I received the following from Olga: > > "I have already sent your ad to the papers in such towns: Moscow, > St. Petersburg, Vladimir, Kazan. At nearest future I will send your ad to the > paper in some more 12 towns of Russia, where papers are published. > Some times (in winter, spring & now) I placed your ad in other papers, > but they are not most popular paper in Moscow and some large cities of Russia. > Besides, I am continuing to place your ad in papers of Ukraine. I > promise to place your ad in some other papers when I will come to Moscow in > August. I am glad that you have received fairly many letters from Russian & > Ukrainian girls and I think you will received some more ones and will find > your ideal in my country soon. > I thank you very much ones more for your kindness & your help. > My best wishes, > > Olga" > > This isn't a scam - call it panhandling if you want. . . I sent her $40 > or $50 and I've received over 45 responses. Unlike placing romance ads in > the U.S., women from the former USSR respond. Although one would guess the > are doing so in the hopes of American citizenship, I haven't found it so. > > Olga lives in Kiev, Ukraine (population 3 million) and will travel to > Moscow in August to visit her father. If you were to send a letter this > week, she would receive it in time. The population of Moscow is 10 million > -- (3 times the size of Los Angeles.) > > Feel free to send a letter and ask her your questions. She will be happy > to respond. > > Olga's address: > > Ukraine > Kiev 253121 > Dekabristov Street 5 - 178 > Olga Kozmina > > I am posting anonymously because of the flames and volume of inquiries > that would result otherwise. I think those who are truely interested will > take the time to write. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > To: probable flamer > Subject: polite note > > Although Olga has never seen a newsgroup nor heard of "net-etiquette," > she believes that offering lonely singles the possibility of romance exceeds > the cost of angering those who feel the net shouldn't be used in this fashion. > IHA (I humbly ask) that you not flame the postmaster of this site. > > peace. . . > > --- > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to > majtest-request@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au > -- /d/def/s/scale/u/dup/f/forall{load def}{loop}stopped pop/r{u 1 lt{-1 0 moveto 1 1 lineto stroke}{[[(ha_a0\211)(db\\h\(~)(eVhdOj)(jd_dbd)(dh\\bT\200)(f_ab^\211) (c]ffe\201)(`@h`x\200)(cZhd#h)(hb^d0v)(`Lh`8t)(eVhd\223~)(gj^a\230j)(h_ab\210a) (gd^c\211\205)]{[exch{96 sub}f]}f]{gsave 1 64 div u s concat u 1 sub r grestore }f}ifelse pop}d 240 u s 1.25 1 translate 4 r showpage% - acb@cs.monash.edu.au - From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 08:42:03 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26128 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:12:22 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA26123 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:12:19 -0700 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id LAA27373 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:11:26 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id KAA07304; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:58:50 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 21 Jul 95 08:54:11 EST for list-managers@greatcircle.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Russian Romance - The Sequel From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 08:49:53 EST Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brace yourself for Olga II. Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 22:58:01 EDT Reply-To: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) Not to long ago, I posted a message re: meeting women of the former soviet union through romance ads. In August, Olga will travel to Moscow from her home in Kiev, Ukraine. In Moscow, Olga will have a much easier and cost efficient means to place your personal romance ad throughout Russia. et cetera et cetera Did anybody succeed in tracing this scumbag? Looks like that Olga is here to stay spreading romance from Russia. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 08:45:35 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA24843 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 07:32:32 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA24838 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 07:32:27 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id KAA15876 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:32:30 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:32:30 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199507211432.KAA15876@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Olga redux Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Looks like the spammer has struck again. This time, he's coming via UCSF. Hmm...the one that hit list-managers itself seems to have come via UTEXAS' VM system and byu.edu. I've appended the headers for anyone who is tracking... --Wes >From list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Fri Jul 21 00:29:29 1995 >Return-Path: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM >Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA11998 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 00:29:26 -0400 >Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay3.UU.NET with ESMTP > id QQyzhh06451; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 00:24:03 -0400 >Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA07692 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:41:18 -0700 >Received: from UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU (utepvm.utep.edu [129.108.1.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA07669; Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:41:09 -0700 >Message-Id: <199507210241.TAA07669@miles.greatcircle.com> >Received: from physics1.byu.edu by UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > with TCP; Thu, 20 Jul 95 20:40:31 MDT >Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 19:43:49 -0700 >To: gca-announce@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, > list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, > majordomo-announce@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-docs@GreatCircle.COM >From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua >Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) >Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM >Precedence: bulk >Status: R From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 10:27:54 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA00202 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:08:27 -0700 Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA00197 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:08:24 -0700 Received: from niwot.scd.ucar.EDU by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR-local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id LAA17827; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:07:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199507211707.LAA19793@niwot.scd.ucar.EDU> Received: by niwot.scd.ucar.EDU (NCAR-local/ NCAR Mail Server 04/10/90) id LAA19793; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:07:33 -0600 Subject: anti-spam features? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:07:32 -0600 (MDT) From: era@ucar.edu (Ed Arnold) Reply-To: era@ucar.edu (Ed Arnold) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 824 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not on the list-managers mailing list currently. Please respond directly to me via email, will summarize if there are any answers. I'm interested in knowing if the majordomo-2 developers are going to include any anti-spam features in the next release, so a list does not have to be moderated to avoid spams. Two ideas that came to mind immediately: 1) A non_member_moderate variable that would cause any posting coming from someone not on the list, to be bounced to the list-owner for inspection; 2) A posting_password variable that would require each member of a list to present a password in their posting, as a requirement of the posting going onto the list. -- Ed Arnold * NCAR * POB 3000, Boulder, CO 80307-3000 * yak: 303-497-1253 fax: 303-497-{1848,1804} * smtp: era@ucar.edu * www: http://www.ucar.edu/era From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 12:11:31 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA03497 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:55:15 -0700 Received: from netcom10.netcom.com (netcom10.netcom.com [192.100.81.120]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA03492 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:55:11 -0700 Received: by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id LAA28685; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:53:00 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:52:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Maryjo Bruce Subject: Buying Love Through Olga To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Olga's elusive American business manager is at it again. This post appeared on Holistic. I am sending it in full...at least Olga's mailing address is included. Wonder if she has a phone? If she is really buying ads in the papers she mentioned, some will be in behalf of her American business manager. I wonder what U.S. libraries might have copies of them. Mary Jo Bruce, M.S., M.L.S. Sunshine@netcom.com Crochet-l@Netcom.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:19:57 PDT To: Multiple recipients of list HOLISTIC Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) What is this crap? I can't send it back to the listserver at the address in.the.former.ussr.ua Why not? Is this the wave of the future that we get junk mail and can't return things back to the sender? Sharon ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Not to long ago, I posted a message re: meeting women of the former soviet union through romance ads. In August, Olga will travel to Moscow from her home in Kiev, Ukraine. In Moscow, Olga will have a much easier and cost efficient means to place your personal romance ad throughout Russia. Last week I received the following from Olga: "I have already sent your ad to the papers in such towns: Moscow, St. Petersburg, Vladimir, Kazan. At nearest future I will send your ad to the paper in some more 12 towns of Russia, where papers are published. Some times (in winter, spring & now) I placed your ad in other papers, but they are not most popular paper in Moscow and some large cities of Russia. Besides, I am continuing to place your ad in papers of Ukraine. I promise to place your ad in some other papers when I will come to Moscow in August. I am glad that you have received fairly many letters from Russian & Ukrainian girls and I think you will received some more ones and will find your ideal in my country soon. I thank you very much ones more for your kindness & your help. My best wishes, Olga" This isn't a scam - call it panhandling if you want. . . I sent her $40 or $50 and I've received over 45 responses. Unlike placing romance ads in the U.S., women from the former USSR respond. Although one would guess the are doing so in the hopes of American citizenship, I haven't found it so. Olga lives in Kiev, Ukraine (population 3 million) and will travel to Moscow in August to visit her father. If you were to send a letter this week, she would receive it in time. The population of Moscow is 10 million -- (3 times the size of Los Angeles.) Feel free to send a letter and ask her your questions. She will be happy to respond. Olga's address: Ukraine Kiev 253121 Dekabristov Street 5 - 178 Olga Kozmina I am posting anonymously because of the flames and volume of inquiries that would result otherwise. I think those who are truely interested will take the time to write. _____________________________________________________________________________ To: probable flamer Subject: polite note Although Olga has never seen a newsgroup nor heard of "net-etiquette," she believes that offering lonely singles the possibility of romance exceeds the cost of angering those who feel the net shouldn't be used in this fashion. IHA (I humbly ask) that you not flame the postmaster of this site. peace. . . From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 13:35:29 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA06304 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:16:41 -0700 Received: from Princeton.EDU (Princeton.EDU [128.112.128.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA06299 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 13:16:38 -0700 Received: from ponyexpress.Princeton.EDU by Princeton.EDU (5.65b/2.122/princeton) id AA21376; Fri, 21 Jul 95 15:52:46 -0400 Received: from clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU by ponyexpress.princeton.edu (8.6.12/1.11/newPE) id PAA08350; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:52:45 -0400 Received: from localhost (jwagner@localhost) by clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA03798; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:52:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199507211952.PAA03798@clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU> X-Authentication-Warning: clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU: jwagner owned process doing -bs X-Authentication-Warning: clytemnestra.Princeton.EDU: Host localhost didn't use HELO protocol X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: postmaster@mitvma.BITNET Subject: Re: Olga redux In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 21 Jul 1995 10:32:30 EDT." <199507211432.KAA15876@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:52:43 EDT From: John Wagner Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Looks like the spammer has struck again. This time, he's coming via UCSF. > > Hmm...the one that hit list-managers itself seems to have come via > UTEXAS' VM system and byu.edu. I've appended the headers for anyone > who is tracking... > > --Wes I've got one on Bitnet that claims it came from ucsfvm.ucsf.edu in the BSMTP MAIL FROM: but when traced back through the logs, the entry point to Bitnet was the MITVMA smtp server. Maybe the MIT folks can trace this further. > VMMAIL log from pucc.Princeton.EDU: 07/21/95 04:56:47 MAIGTS009I Received file 5884 sender: VMBITNET from: MITVMA MAILER 07/21/95 04:56:47 MAISMT054I BSMTP request transaction start. 07/21/95 04:56:47 MAISMT043I 0001 recipient blocks. RDR FILE 5885 SENT FROM VMMAIL PUN WAS 5885 RECS 0050 CPY 001 M NOHOLD NOKEEP 07/21/95 04:56:48 MAILCL034X Mail sent to xxxxxxxx at PUCC 07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT055I BSMTP request transaction end. 07/21/95 04:56:48 MAIGTS009I Received file 5885 sender: VMMAIL from: PUCC VMMAIL 07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT054I BSMTP request transaction start. 07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT043I 0001 recipient blocks. PUN FILE 5886 SENT TO SMTP RDR AS 2911 RECS 0051 CPY 001 M NOHOLD NOKEEP SMTP log for pucc.Princeton.EDU: 07/21/95 04:56:48 Received Spool File 2911 From VMMAIL at PUCC 07/21/95 04:56:48 BSMTP Helo Domain: PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU Yours too, I see! 07/21/95 04:56:48 Received Note 00072585 via BSMTP From <@UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU:romance@IN.THE.FORMER.USSR.UA> 07/21/95 04:56:49 Delivered Note 00072585 to From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 14:24:33 1995 Received: (daemon@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08329 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:09:11 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA08324 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:09:04 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id RAA10305; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:08:07 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:08:07 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: Ed Arnold cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: anti-spam features? In-Reply-To: <199507211707.LAA19793@niwot.scd.ucar.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Am I wrong in assuming that a closed list is spam proof? How do they get through? From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 16:55:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA00829 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:40:35 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp9.netcom.com [163.179.3.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA00822 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:40:32 -0700 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA20571; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:15:06 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0sZQhZ-000gmsC; Fri, 21 Jul 95 15:37 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: anti-spam features? To: jdunn@cloud9.net (jeff dunn) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: era@ucar.edu, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "jeff dunn" at Jul 21, 95 05:08:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 582 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, jeff dunn is alleged to have written: => Am I wrong in assuming that a closed list is spam proof? => How do they get through? They have not gotten through any of my lists so far. Mine are closed, and I just get bounce messages back to me asking approval. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Women sense my power james@sagarmatha.com | and seek my life essense. | I do not avoid women | But I do deny them my essense. URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jc/jca/homepage.html From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 18:40:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA05935 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:36:35 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp12.netcom.com [163.179.3.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA05928 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:36:32 -0700 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA12871; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:21:26 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0sZScw-000gmsC; Fri, 21 Jul 95 17:41 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2477 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The last spam seemed tied to physics1.byu.edu, and once again the first received line also comes from that site. I personally believe that is the place to begin looking -- either the spammer is there, or there's a big security hole there that the spammer is exploiting. And, if someone does find out who it is, please let us know. I'm sure I could find a lawyer or two who would love to make his life miserable! From cornell.edu!owner-FELINES-L Fri Jul 21 17:02:21 1995 Return-Path: Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0sZS1M-000gmwC; Fri, 21 Jul 95 17:02 PDT Sender: cornell.edu!owner-FELINES-L Received: from listproc.mail.cornell.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA28633; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 16:21:29 -0700 Received: from localhost.mail.cornell.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by listproc.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16846; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:12:30 -0400 Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by listproc.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA16779; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:11:12 -0400 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA23366; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:13:31 -0400 Received: from VM1.NoDak.EDU (vm1.NoDak.edu [134.129.111.1]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA23360; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:13:28 -0400 Received: from physics1.byu.edu by VM1.NoDak.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 21 Jul 95 18:09:27 CDT Message-Id: <199507212313.TAA23360@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:07:19 -0600 Reply-To: FELINES-L@cornell.edu Sender: owner-FELINES-L@cornell.edu From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua To: Discussion of non-domestic felines Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) X-To: ODAAT@bgu.edu, toyota-l@bgu.edu, B5-REVIEW-L@cornell.edu, BTHS-ENews-L@cornell.edu, felines-l@cornell.edu X-PH: V4.1@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (Cornell Modified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.2(a) -- ListProcessor by CREN Status: RO -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Women sense my power james@sagarmatha.com | and seek my life essense. | I do not avoid women | But I do deny them my essense. URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jc/jca/homepage.html From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 20:11:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA09161 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:44:13 -0700 Received: from gagme.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA09148 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:44:09 -0700 Received: by gagme.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sZUWv-000FClC; Fri, 21 Jul 95 21:43 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Olga via BYU and UNCC To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 21:43:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1826 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Olga's spam reached both of my lists today. I saved the headers of the copy that hit the Toyota Corolla List, according to which the University of North Carolina at Charlotte was involved but a bigger culprit was Brigham Young University. It came through with no Message-Id:, so the receiving site supplied its own: From UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU!in.the.former.USSR.ua!romance Fri Jul 21 18:29:42 1995 Return-Path: <@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU:romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua> Received: by mailbox.mcs.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.5) id ; Fri, 21 Jul 95 18:29 CDT Message-Id: Received: from physics1.byu.edu by UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Fri, 21 Jul 95 19:31:09 EST Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 17:27:04 -0600 To: Cichlids@mailmill.com, hammerd@mcs.com, corolla@mcs.com, Mac-lawyers@melnick-moore.com, cybersleaze@metaverse.com From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) Again with the continued subject line. As you can see, they're trying to hit every mailing list at once, and the mail transports, in an attempt to opti- mize, are alphabetizing the targets by site name (the name of the list seemed not to matter: note that "hammerd" precedes "corolla"). I didn't save all the headers of the copy that reached the Party of Five List, but the From_ line still named UNCC, I would guess also via a route through BYU, and the To: header named WWA's alphabetical neighbors: From UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU!in.the.former.USSR.ua!romance Fri Jul 21 18:33:42 1995 To: towers@wlk.com, 2150@wsyd.com, VTFREENT@wsyd.com, salingers@wwa.com, stagecraft@zinc.com Since the PoF List is moderated and I put a trap for further Olga appearancs on the Corolla List, the members were spared in both cases. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 21 20:41:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA11083 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:12:06 -0700 Received: from loiosh.kei.com (loiosh.kei.com [192.88.144.32]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA11057 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 20:12:01 -0700 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id XAA12626; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:10:52 -0400 Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:10:52 -0400 From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199507220310.XAA12626@loiosh.kei.com> To: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole In-Reply-To: References: X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk JCA> == James C Armstrong JCA> The last spam seemed tied to physics1.byu.edu, and once again the JCA> first received line also comes from that site. I personally believe JCA> that is the place to begin looking -- either the spammer is there, JCA> or there's a big security hole there that the spammer is exploiting. It's not BYU. Really. There's a big (well, certainly annoying in a big way) security hole, but it's *not at BYU*. My earlier post to news.admin.net-abuse.misc is instructive; I enclose it below. ================================================================ PM> == Petrea Mitchell PM> Yes, Olga is spamming the mailing lists again. Was there some PM> disagreement about physics1.byu.edu was the point of origin before? PM> It's the only site in common between the headers I saw of the last PM> spam and this one... I suspect, very strongly, that KENTVM, like previous sites that have been used in the Olga-spam, runs a broken piece of shit mailer that not only doesn't verify SMTP HELO commands, it also doesn't log the actual IP address or reverse-resolved name of the host in question (in violation of RFC 1123 sections 5.2.5 and 5.2.8). PM> Received: from physics1.byu.edu by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) I just tested my suspicion, and confirmed it: Received: from ncc1701d.starfleet.mil by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) Guess what? I didn't send that message from the Enterprise-D. physics1.byu.edu, if it even exists, is almost certainly blameless. -- Christopher Davis * * 512/03829F89 = D7 C9 A7 80 8C 84 3F B2 27 E1 48 61 BF FC 18 B4 1024/66CB73DD = 46 8E FD F5 12 8E 13 4C 2C 8A 92 A3 B0 D5 2A 5E [ Public keys available by finger, WWW, or keyserver ] From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 00:10:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA18523 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:02:05 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp6.netcom.com [163.179.3.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id AAA18516 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 00:02:02 -0700 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id XAA17729; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:53:24 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0sZXzS-000gmsC; Fri, 21 Jul 95 23:24 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: ckd@loiosh.kei.com (Christopher Davis) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 23:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: james@sagarmatha.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199507220310.XAA12626@loiosh.kei.com> from "Christopher Davis" at Jul 21, 95 11:10:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2867 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Christopher Davis is alleged to have written: => JCA> == James C Armstrong => JCA> The last spam seemed tied to physics1.byu.edu, and once again the => JCA> first received line also comes from that site. I personally believe => JCA> that is the place to begin looking -- either the spammer is there, => JCA> or there's a big security hole there that the spammer is exploiting. => => It's not BYU. Really. => => There's a big (well, certainly annoying in a big way) security hole, but => it's *not at BYU*. My earlier post to news.admin.net-abuse.misc is => instructive; I enclose it below. (Don't get the newsgroup, sorrt...) => ================================================================ => PM> == Petrea Mitchell => => PM> Yes, Olga is spamming the mailing lists again. Was there some => PM> disagreement about physics1.byu.edu was the point of origin before? => PM> It's the only site in common between the headers I saw of the last => PM> spam and this one... => => I suspect, very strongly, that KENTVM, like previous sites that have been => used in the Olga-spam, runs a broken piece of shit mailer that not only => doesn't verify SMTP HELO commands, it also doesn't log the actual IP => address or reverse-resolved name of the host in question (in violation of => RFC 1123 sections 5.2.5 and 5.2.8). => => PM> Received: from physics1.byu.edu by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) => => I just tested my suspicion, and confirmed it: => => Received: from ncc1701d.starfleet.mil by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) => => Guess what? I didn't send that message from the Enterprise-D. => => physics1.byu.edu, if it even exists, is almost certainly blameless. Well, physics1.byu.edu does exist, the IP address is 128.187.18.57. However, I did get these spams to my list from other intermediate sites, as well: vm.poly.edu and UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU. In all three cases, the sendmail used at the remote site is "IBM VM SMTP V2R2." In the other two cases, I tried a similar spoof to the one above, and it worked the same way. Is this the latest SMTP from IBM for that platform? If so, is there a way we can get this bug reported and expedited - I'd argue that an urgent fix is needed, since if this security hole is there, there may be others... If it is already fixed, can we get on the administrators at those sites to implement the fix? As for the originator, the "physics1.byu.edu" does still look suspicious, has anyone contacted the administrators there? -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Women sense my power james@sagarmatha.com | and seek my life essense. | I do not avoid women | But I do deny them my essense. URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jc/jca/homepage.html From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 02:41:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA21103 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 02:17:07 -0700 Received: from molly.cs.monash.edu.au (molly.cs.monash.edu.au [130.194.64.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id CAA21096 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 02:16:53 -0700 Received: (from acb@localhost) by molly.cs.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.9) id TAA22904; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:15:10 +1000 From: Andrew C Bulhak Message-Id: <199507220915.TAA22904@molly.cs.monash.edu.au> Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:15:09 +1000 (EST) Cc: ckd@loiosh.kei.com, james@sagarmatha.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "James C. Armstrong" at Jul 21, 95 11:24:45 pm Reply-To: acb@cs.monash.edu.au X-Life-The-Universe-And-Everything: 42 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2602 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [James C. Armstrong] > > => There's a big (well, certainly annoying in a big way) security hole, but > => it's *not at BYU*. My earlier post to news.admin.net-abuse.misc is > => instructive; I enclose it below. > > (Don't get the newsgroup, sorrt...) > > => ================================================================ > => PM> == Petrea Mitchell > => > => PM> Yes, Olga is spamming the mailing lists again. Was there some > => PM> disagreement about physics1.byu.edu was the point of origin before? > => PM> It's the only site in common between the headers I saw of the last > => PM> spam and this one... > => > => I suspect, very strongly, that KENTVM, like previous sites that have been > => used in the Olga-spam, runs a broken piece of shit mailer that not only > => doesn't verify SMTP HELO commands, it also doesn't log the actual IP > => address or reverse-resolved name of the host in question (in violation of > => RFC 1123 sections 5.2.5 and 5.2.8). > => > => PM> Received: from physics1.byu.edu by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > => > => I just tested my suspicion, and confirmed it: > => > => Received: from ncc1701d.starfleet.mil by KENTVM.KENT.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) > => > => Guess what? I didn't send that message from the Enterprise-D. > => > => physics1.byu.edu, if it even exists, is almost certainly blameless. > > Well, physics1.byu.edu does exist, the IP address is 128.187.18.57. > > However, I did get these spams to my list from other intermediate > sites, as well: vm.poly.edu and UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU. In all three > cases, the sendmail used at the remote site is "IBM VM SMTP V2R2." > In the other two cases, I tried a similar spoof to the one above, > and it worked the same way. > > Is this the latest SMTP from IBM for that platform? If so, is there > a way we can get this bug reported and expedited - I'd argue that an > urgent fix is needed, since if this security hole is there, there > may be others... If it is already fixed, can we get on the > administrators at those sites to implement the fix? Perhaps CERT should be alerted to this. A CERT advisory would no doubt help to get this hole plugged. -- /d/def/s/scale/u/dup/f/forall{load def}{loop}stopped pop/r{u 1 lt{-1 0 moveto 1 1 lineto stroke}{[[(ha_a0\211)(db\\h\(~)(eVhdOj)(jd_dbd)(dh\\bT\200)(f_ab^\211) (c]ffe\201)(`@h`x\200)(cZhd#h)(hb^d0v)(`Lh`8t)(eVhd\223~)(gj^a\230j)(h_ab\210a) (gd^c\211\205)]{[exch{96 sub}f]}f]{gsave 1 64 div u s concat u 1 sub r grestore }f}ifelse pop}d 240 u s 1.25 1 translate 4 r showpage% - acb@cs.monash.edu.au - From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 03:11:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA21697 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:02:51 -0700 Received: from terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (terra.stack.urc.tue.nl [131.155.140.128]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id DAA21690 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:02:45 -0700 Received: from xaa.stack.urc.tue.nl (uucp@localhost) by terra.stack.urc.tue.nl (8.6.11) with UUCP id LAA11733 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 11:05:48 +0200 Received: (from xaa@localhost) by xaa.stack.urc.tue.nl (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA00743 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 11:49:42 +0200 From: Mark Huizer Message-Id: <199507220949.LAA00743@xaa.stack.urc.tue.nl> Subject: Re: Russian Romance - The Sequel To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 11:49:41 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: from "Gess Shankar" at Jul 21, 95 08:49:53 am Reply-To: xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1364 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 95 22:58:01 EDT > Reply-To: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua > From: romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua > Subject: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) > > Not to long ago, I posted a message re: meeting women of the former > soviet union through romance ads. > > In August, Olga will travel to Moscow from her home in Kiev, Ukraine. > In Moscow, Olga will have a much easier and cost efficient means to place > your personal romance ad throughout Russia. > > et cetera et cetera > > Did anybody succeed in tracing this scumbag? Looks like that Olga is here > to stay spreading romance from Russia. > Guess he used the info from the OLGA 1 delivery. We have installed 1 new mailinglist in that time, and this list wasn't spammed. Haven;'t been at 'the office' yet, and haven't taken the time to check logfiles, but this says enough :-) Mark Huizer ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Mark Huizer - xaa@stack.urc.tue.nl - markh@win.tue.nl - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Always borrow money from a pessimist; he doesn't expect to be - - paid back. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 09:16:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA24292 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 08:43:11 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp6.netcom.com [163.179.3.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA24284 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 08:43:09 -0700 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id IAA06372; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 08:34:08 -0700 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0sZfZQ-000gmsC; Sat, 22 Jul 95 07:30 PDT Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: acb@cs.monash.edu.au Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 07:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199507220915.TAA22904@molly.cs.monash.edu.au> from "Andrew C Bulhak" at Jul 22, 95 07:15:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 838 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, Andrew C Bulhak is alleged to have written: => > Is this the latest SMTP from IBM for that platform? If so, is there => > a way we can get this bug reported and expedited - I'd argue that an => > urgent fix is needed, since if this security hole is there, there => > may be others... If it is already fixed, can we get on the => > administrators at those sites to implement the fix? => Perhaps CERT should be alerted to this. A CERT advisory would no doubt => help to get this hole plugged. How do we do this? -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | Women sense my power james@sagarmatha.com | and seek my life essense. | I do not avoid women | But I do deny them my essense. URL: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/jc/jca/homepage.html From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 09:46:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA24507 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:16:57 -0700 Received: from molly.cs.monash.edu.au (molly.cs.monash.edu.au [130.194.64.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA24500 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:16:51 -0700 Received: (from acb@localhost) by molly.cs.monash.edu.au (8.6.10/8.6.9) id CAA26601; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 02:15:41 +1000 From: Andrew C Bulhak Message-Id: <199507221615.CAA26601@molly.cs.monash.edu.au> Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 02:15:40 +1000 (EST) Cc: acb@cs.monash.edu.au, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "James C. Armstrong" at Jul 22, 95 07:30:24 am Reply-To: acb@cs.monash.edu.au X-Life-The-Universe-And-Everything: 42 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1124 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [James C. Armstrong] > > According to unnamed sources, Andrew C Bulhak is alleged to have written: > => > Is this the latest SMTP from IBM for that platform? If so, is there > => > a way we can get this bug reported and expedited - I'd argue that an > => > urgent fix is needed, since if this security hole is there, there > => > may be others... If it is already fixed, can we get on the > => > administrators at those sites to implement the fix? > => Perhaps CERT should be alerted to this. A CERT advisory would no doubt > => help to get this hole plugged. > > How do we do this? I'm not quite sure. I suspect that you send mail to cert@cert.org about it. Perhaps if I'm wrong someone'll correct me on this. -- /d/def/s/scale/u/dup/f/forall{load def}{loop}stopped pop/r{u 1 lt{-1 0 moveto 1 1 lineto stroke}{[[(ha_a0\211)(db\\h\(~)(eVhdOj)(jd_dbd)(dh\\bT\200)(f_ab^\211) (c]ffe\201)(`@h`x\200)(cZhd#h)(hb^d0v)(`Lh`8t)(eVhd\223~)(gj^a\230j)(h_ab\210a) (gd^c\211\205)]{[exch{96 sub}f]}f]{gsave 1 64 div u s concat u 1 sub r grestore }f}ifelse pop}d 240 u s 1.25 1 translate 4 r showpage% - acb@cs.monash.edu.au - From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 14:29:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA01391 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 14:07:26 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA01384 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 14:07:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199507222107.OAA01384@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6271; Sat, 22 Jul 95 23:01:53 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 7606; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 23:01:53 +0200 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 22:31:23 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: "James C. Armstrong" , Andrew C Bulhak cc: ckd@loiosh.kei.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:15:09 +1000 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would have expected the people on this list to know better than to cry wolf so quickly. It seems that the current consensus is that the spams are made possible by a SECURITY HOLE in IBM's SMTP software that should be FIXED as soon as possible, and that CERT should be ALERTED. It is true that the spams are made possible by a security hole, but it isn't in the IBM software, it's in the Internet mail standards. RFC1123 says: 5.2.5 HELO Command: RFC-821 Section 3.5 (...) The HELO receiver MAY verify that the HELO parameter really corresponds to the IP address of the sender. However, the receiver MUST NOT refuse to accept a message, even if the sender's HELO command fails verification. DISCUSSION: Verifying the HELO parameter requires a domain name lookup and may therefore take considerable time. An alternative tool for tracking bogus mail sources is suggested below (see "DATA Command"). Let me translate this to English: The mail program MAY, but DOES NOT HAVE TO, verify that the HELO parameter really corresponds to the IP address of the sender. If it does so and determines that the message has been spoofed, the mail program MUST still accept and deliver the message normally. The reason RFC1123 says this is that it would break a lot of software if it said otherwise. The Internet mail standards never made any provision for security, and that's the root of the problem. Anyway, there is no BUG in IBM's SMTP software because it is not mandatory to perform the test in question. It is not a SECURITY HOLE because the standards demand that forged messages be taken at face value. You can always alert CERT to the fact that Internet mail isn't safe, but I am confident that they are already aware of this problem. To forge mail in a totally untraceable way, all a hacker has to do is dial a university's terminal server and connect to some SMTP server. The logs will identify the terminal server. The terminal server won't know who has called. You will never get a warrant to trace any and all calls to the terminal server in the hope of identifying the perpetrator, because (1) there is no clear material damage for any single site to bring up the issue with enough conviction, (2) it is in fact not clear at all that spoofing mail is illegal, and (3) hundreds of innocent victims would have their calls traced in the process. If I were a judge I'd like to make sure I have a solid story to tell the victims - for instance, that we were looking for a terrorist, or a child murderer. I wouldn't want to have to explain that we stripped them of their privacy rights because we were looking for a dangerous criminal who abused the credulity of people by posting invitations to send him $50 for a romance ad. In Europe it would be no big deal, but in the US people take their rights very seriously, and the case we're talking about was in the US. If that's not good enough, you can pipe your message through a gateway to a mail system that doesn't have the concept of "Received:" lines. On the way in, the info will be thrown away. On the way out it will come without the "Received:" lines that might have had an IP address in it. The gateway's log will show the IP address of the SMTP server through which the connection was made. Pipe through two busy SMTP servers to prevent sysadmins from saying "Ah, but this was my only connection to weird gateway X today". There are many other possibilities. The bottom line is that there is absolutely nothing you can do. The Internet mail protocols were designed to be an open windmill from day one. If you live in a paper house, you can put the latest high tech on your front door and it won't make any difference. Which doesn't mean the problem can't be solved by normal everyday means. In fact, it's ridiculously easy. All these spammers advertise something. There's a contact point for you to send your money. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who is behind the contact point using normal everyday investigative methods. Then you can sue to your heart's content. It's all about using the right tool for the job. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 14:59:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA02338 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 14:36:04 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA27028 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 08:40:58 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA25927 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:39:50 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199507211539.JAA25927@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Someone trying to loop subscriptions? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:39:48 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 313 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got an admin message this morning indicating that someone at the address: Steve Alberts had tried to subscribe one of my lists to itself. Has anyone else seen any suspicious activity from this account recently? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 14:59:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA02364 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 14:36:50 -0700 Received: from can02.pge.com (can02.pge.com [130.19.4.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA08555 for ; Fri, 21 Jul 1995 14:13:40 -0700 Resent-From: ADB1%AsiCes%CTS@bangate.pge.com Received: from dns01.pge.com by can02.pge.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA28626; Fri, 21 Jul 95 14:23:07 PDT Received: from go00.comp.pge.com by dns01.pge.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19083; Fri, 21 Jul 95 14:10:51 PDT Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 14:10:51 PDT Message-Id: <9507212110.AA19083@dns01.pge.com> Received: by go00.comp.pge.com; Fri, 21 Jul 95 14:10:50 PDT Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Jul 95 14:10:46 PDT Resent-Message-Id: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: Subject: FYI: NEW RESOURCE FOR THE INTERNET Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Comments : Greetings List-Managers, Please pardon a newbie-type question, but I'm hoping you can help me out. I received the following message this morning. I called Addison (whose number is at the bottom of the message) and told him this kind of marketing constitutes Internet abuse in my book. When I asked him where he got my address he said, "I'm not exactly sure, but it's publicly available information." Can someone tell me how Addison (or one of his pals) got my email address? Were lists involved? Did many other people receive this unsolicited ad? The message looks vaguely familiar, perhaps someone else on this list has already raised the issue, but I missed it. On a related note, I'm trying to understand how you folks track spammers down (i.e. Olga & Crew). To that end, if anyone can point me to a FAQ on interpreting mail headers I'd really appreciate it. (I swear I saw one once but darned if I can find it now...I've tried searching the RTFM Usenet archives several times but have struck out so far.) Thanks in advance for your assistance, Audrey Borden adb1@pge.com Pacific Gas & Electric Co. San Francisco ------------------------[ Original Message ]-------------------- To : Cc : >From : Continua Date : Friday, July 21, 1995 at 11:24:59 am PDT As a frequent browser of newsgroups and listservers, I recently came across your name as someone who is interested in staying current with all the changes constantly being made on the Internet. If you have received this message in error, I sincerely apologize, but if I haven't misread your interests, you'll be eager to hear that Continua has a special offer on Continua Reports, the new Internet magazine that has everything a user such as yourself needs to get the most out of the Net. With the Internet changing so rapidly, you can't afford to wait if you want to stay current on all the latest Internet developments. You need an Intelligent Agent on the Net to help you make the most of your time. 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Simply reply to this message NOW to start your RISK-FREE subscription to Continua Reports TODAY! -- Addison Snell Continua Phone: 1-708-432-1758 Continua Reports 823 Kimballwood Ave. Fax: 1-708-432-1739 1-800-249-6666 Highland Park, IL 60035 From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 15:29:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA03298 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 15:08:44 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.36] (quadra.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA03291; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 15:08:40 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 15:07:54 -0800 To: Lazlo Nibble , list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Someone trying to loop subscriptions? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:39 AM 7/21/95, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >I got an admin message this morning indicating that someone at the address: > > Steve Alberts > >had tried to subscribe one of my lists to itself. Has anyone else seen any >suspicious activity from this account recently? Never ascribe to malice what can adequately be explained by stupidity. I'd bet it was an accident, or somebody who just doesn't know any better, expecially if it's an isolated incident. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 22 17:53:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA10620 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 17:48:11 -0700 Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA10613 for ; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 17:48:07 -0700 Received: from mcs.anl.gov (spooky.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.3.7]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA04663; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:47:01 -0500 Message-Id: <199507230047.TAA04663@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, rackow@antares.mcs.anl.gov Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 22 Jul 1995 22:31:23 +0200." <199507222107.OAA01384@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 19:47:00 -0500 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't like this mailing list spammer any more than anybody else. I expect I'll take some heat for some of the comments here, but it's been a very long week. Being a person that has had about 100 lists hit by this bozo, he really ticks me off. After having a couple days to look back at the overall situation though, I'm finding it rather funny. I'm not saying I like, agree with, or anything else that might make anyone think this is OK, but... 1. Consider what people get almost every day in their snail mail box. What is the percentage of stuff that you keep vs the stuff that hits the circular file? The amount of energy and resources used by this are substantially smaller. Hitting the "d" key vs burning trees. How many people complaining are as vocal about getting yet another piece of junk paper mail. 2. Sit back and read some of the replies that people have sent to this spam. I have quite a number of mailing lists that are made up of non-computer literate people. Some of their expectations and replies are off the wall. I've considered a few for rec.humor, but decided against it since those of us involved probably all have similar messages. 3. Look at what the years and mega-dollars of testing and building the internet have brought us. If the founding groups would have imagined the green-card lawyers, romance.in.russia, and 17th floor as possibilities when they started, where would we be now. Their view and current reality are quite different. Let's face it. The form and function of the net as we knew it has and is continuing to change. We are currently in a position where there are tons of things still operating from the "old-school" of the net. The "old-school" being when there were not groups of people at every major site specializing in network or computer security. That sort of stuff was left to the "bankers". Now, anybody with access to a PC can be on the net. We are not just a research project any more, but something that can be accessed by kids, spammers, grandparents, mechanics, gang-members, laywers, you name it. No longer is there an understanding of respect for others at the fingertips of every user connected. Now for a few dollars people feel they have bought the "right" to do what they want. I'm not saying that this spammer is in that class, but I sure there is a copy-cat lined up that will. Now is the time when many things that we are taking for granted are needing to change. List restrictions, user verification/identification, etc. In many cases we still need to support the old while attempting to move on to newer things. For example, there are still mailers out there that reformat into 80 column data, live with bang-path addresses, or have 7 character restrictions on list or file names. How can we expect to implement form and function changes and still be backwards compatible. It's going to take time and enough backing from the community that makes it be a standard to the point where we can be unconcerned with the minority that is left. The problem is that WE are still changing as well. We move from version 1 to 2 to 3 rather quickly. At some point, we need to say that version 1 is no longer acceptable as a minimum, but how LONG till that time comes. The machine I bought just a couple years ago isn't even capable of running several of the current systems that I'd like it to. It still does what I wanted it to do at that time, but I don't like being left behind. I also don't like being in debt to the hardware vendor. I guess after saying all of that, what I think we need to do is work on getting some new standards in place, implementing the tools to make use of those standards, and then hope that they will be put into practice before our kids are dealing with these same problems. These are going to need to be standards that will work. We have seen several attempts at these in the past, but they have not become part of everyday system installs. Until the minimum becomes a level that will prevent this type of spammer from getting though, I think we will continue to see this problem. For another example of spamming, take a look in usenet now. Someone determined that the anti-spammers could be circumvented by changing the posting info for each message. Same content in each message, just a different (garbage)message-id string, from line, and subject. --gene From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 23 09:23:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA28452 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:17:04 -0700 Received: from use.usit.net (use.usit.net [199.1.48.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA28445 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:17:01 -0700 Received: (from acme@localhost) by use.usit.net (8.6.10/8.6.9) id MAA02548; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 12:08:18 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 12:08:18 -0400 (EDT) From: "Erich Schulman (KTN4CA) -- Team OS/2" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: era@ucar.edu Subject: Re: anti-spam features? Message-ID: Organization: Rebel Alliance of Mobius MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk So wrote Ed Arnold on Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:07:32 -0600 (MDT): > 1) A non_member_moderate variable that would cause any posting coming from > someone not on the list, to be bounced to the list-owner for inspection; Majordomo already has this feature. It's already in effect on my list. Read the docs and FAQ. > 2) A posting_password variable that would require each member of > a list to present a password in their posting, as a requirement of > the posting going onto the list. That would be OK for a list of a more technical interest (like majordomo-users), but may discourage participation in lists where many subscribers have limited experience with the 'net or computers in general. In the more technical lists, the users would have to automate this or it would be a hassle that could also discourage participation. And then there will ineviatably be people who lose their passwords (and will ask the list owner for help, or unsubscribe) or give them away without appreciating the effect thereof. Make things harder for the spammers, not the legitimate users. Erich Schulman (KTN4CA) [Team OS/2] A net.freedom-fighter for Mobius! "Freedom Fighters are #1!" -- Sonic the Hedgehog A! JW2 WAR++ PI0>+ BR+i SL++++i SK+++ RI0>++/++^ RU+ GDF0>+ BU++ MI- MM- KK-- Do $++ E59 Ee5 TRita Ay68 M Mail: acme@use.usit.net | WWW: http://nyx10.cs.du.edu:8001/~eschulma From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 23 09:53:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA29029 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:43:36 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA29022 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:43:33 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA17825 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:41:47 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199507231641.KAA17825@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:41:46 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1345 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > ...there is no BUG in IBM's SMTP software because it is not mandatory to > perform the test in question. It is not a SECURITY HOLE because the > standards demand that forged messages be taken at face value. While I admit this is just semantics, I disagree. You may be leaving your front door unlocked because you have to in order to allow your aged grandmother admittance at all hours of the day or night, but leaving it unlocked is still a security hole. :-) I've been mulling the issue of mailing-list address verification for a while. If it's important enough to people, we could certainly design some sort of key-passing mechanism into the signup procedures for some mailing lists -- for example: Potential subscriber makes subscribe request; List server replies with list charter and an arbitrary key built from the potential subscriber's address, the time of day, and a special password set by the list manager on the server end; Potential subscriber must reply with this key within some arbitrary time period in order to join the list. When used, this assures that the subscriber is coming from a valid email address. It may look like overkill now, but I'm willing to bet that it won't look like overkill at this time next year . . . -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 23 10:26:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29776 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:03:09 -0700 Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA29769 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 10:03:04 -0700 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id MAA01321; Sat, 22 Jul 1995 12:05:33 -0400 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 12:05:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: Lazlo Nibble cc: lm Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole In-Reply-To: <199507231641.KAA17825@kitsune.swcp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 23 Jul 1995, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > I've been mulling the issue of mailing-list address verification for a while. > If it's important enough to people, we could certainly design some sort of > key-passing mechanism into the signup procedures for some mailing lists > -- for example: > > Potential subscriber makes subscribe request; > List server replies with list charter and an arbitrary key built from > the potential subscriber's address, the time of day, and a special > password set by the list manager on the server end; > Potential subscriber must reply with this key within some arbitrary time > period in order to join the list. I have seen something like that on some listserv lists. When you subscribe it sends a message back to you and before you can join the list you have to reply with just the word ok. It is very easy to do since it is just "reply" and then ok, but does require a valid e-mail address. Brian From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 23 18:24:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA00277 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 18:11:04 -0700 Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA00270 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 18:10:59 -0700 Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sun, 23 Jul 95 21:08 EDT Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 21:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Olga's at it again!! To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.1-950706-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Beware!! My mailing list just got struck again by Olga!! For reference, the date is Sunday July 23 6:00pm PDT. Luckily I was changing over my mailing list to use Majordomo for it's "restrict_post" feature and my personal address was the only one on the list! Ha! Small victory. :-) I sent a request to the postmaster at physics1.byu.edu for this to stop when my list got hit early July. I sent another (more rash) request during the last batch of hits on Friday, and another will go off due to this recent hit I think it's worth noting that I got absolutely not response to my plea in early July, and I'm starting to get annoyed with byu.edu if for no other reason than their apparent appathetic attitude (say that 10 times real fast). b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 02:24:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA10362 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 02:18:09 -0700 Received: from vinkku.hut.fi (vinkku.hut.fi [130.233.245.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id CAA10350 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 02:18:04 -0700 Received: from gamma.hut.fi (gamma.hut.fi [130.233.224.52]) by vinkku.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) with ESMTP id MAA04036; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:17:02 +0300 Received: (zarr@localhost) by gamma.hut.fi (8.6.11/8.6.7) id MAA26243; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:16:59 +0300 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:16:59 +0300 Message-Id: <199507240916.MAA26243@gamma.hut.fi> From: Mari Sepp{ To: Gene Rackow Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Another header from the russian brides asshole In-Reply-To: <199507230047.TAA04663@antares.mcs.anl.gov> References: <199507222107.OAA01384@miles.greatcircle.com> <199507230047.TAA04663@antares.mcs.anl.gov> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gene Rackow writes: > 1. Consider what people get almost every day in their snail mail box. > What is the percentage of stuff that you keep vs the stuff > that hits the circular file? > The amount of energy and resources used by this are > substantially smaller. Hitting the "d" key vs burning trees. > How many people complaining are as vocal about getting yet another > piece of junk paper mail. I guess the questions is who pays for the advertising. If I want to subscribe to a mailing list, I only want the mails that are of the mailing list subject to reach me. If I have to pay for every single mail and every single message I read in the newsgroup, I *really* do not want to pay for advertisements. Junk paper mail drop into your mailbox PAID, if I receive an e-mail *I* have to PAY to read it. Also, I do use paper junkmail to my advantage, but I want to specify the time when I do myself. > 3. Look at what the years and mega-dollars of testing and building the > internet have brought us. If the founding groups would have imagined > the green-card lawyers, romance.in.russia, and 17th floor as > possibilities when they started, where would we be now. Their view > and current reality are quite different. Well...everything evolves. I don't think they exactly imagined other things that are possible now either. I won't unsubscribe to mailing lists because of this but it doesn't mean I have to say it's OK to advertise like that. I am more ready to use commecial products and services when I can access them when *I* want. I don't go to the mall when I am not in the mood... A newsgroup hierarchies, mailing lists and such could be solely for this purpose...and I do believe they get more *satisfied* readers and customers. But, is the Olga-spam really an advertisement or a fun of people, who used to use their energy in making viruses? > For another example of spamming, take a look in usenet now. Someone > determined that the anti-spammers could be circumvented by changing the > posting info for each message. Same content in each message, just a different > (garbage)message-id string, from line, and subject. Yep :-/ I guess it's a new hobby. "If it isn't illegal, do it" type of thing :-( My thoughts, Mari From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 06:24:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA15486 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 06:00:55 -0700 Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA15479 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 06:00:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 9:00:15 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [-: RE: Re: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) (fwd)] Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9507240900.aa26420@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One of the subscribers to a list I run got the following from the folks at BYU... Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html ----- Forwarded message # 1: From: - To: info-labview@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: RE: Re: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) (fwd) Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 03:16:51 -0400 Reply-To: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Message-ID: For the info of the group, I contacted the postmaster at the host domain where those Olga messages appeared to be originating from, and this is the reply (a very nice one, I thought) he sent back. So I guess the rest of us need not pester the postmasters, as they seem to be actively working on the matter. -------- Forwarded message -------- Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:49:54 -0600 (MDT) From: postmaster@byu.edu To: w2jc@ritz.mordor.com Subject: RE: Re: letter from Olga! =) (Unverified) Thank you for your concern about the Olga SPAM. To the best of our knowledge Ogla SPAM is not originating from BYU. We have determined physics1.byu.edu is being spoofed as the origination source. Physics1.byu.edu is a Novell server running Mercury and requires another BYU system to forward its mail. Both systems maintain logs of each mail transaction. Our logs do not show the Olga SPAM is originating from physics1.byu.edu. We have determined the SPAM is being sent to IBM VM machines around the Internet, which will take any host name and assume the header of the sender is valid. Systems that do not verify the origination IP address of the mailing are susceptible to this type of spoofing. To our knowledge law enforcement is aware of the perpetrator's identity and they are making an effort to apprehend the suspect. However, until the perpetrator is caught, future spoofed mailings are possible as long as there are systems out there that do not verify the mailing's origination. We know the mailings are not originating from BYU. We share your frustration and want you to know we are doing everything within our power to correct this situation. However, we realize our role is limited since these mailings are originating from sites other than BYU. We are collecting evidence, so if you have any information (ie., logs with IP origination addresses) that will help identify the true source of these mailings please send them to TJay@byu.edu. Thanks, Terrance Humphries Manager of Network Security and Administration Brigham Young University TJay@byu.edu 801-378-7513 -- Forwarded courtesy of: ******************************************************************* INSTRUMENTATION ENGINEERING, INC. -- ATE System Solutions 415 Hamburg Turnpike, voice: 201.389.0801 Wayne, NJ 07470-2134 fax: 201.389.0913 email: instr_engg@mordor.com ie@ios.com ********************** 26 corporate years designing, building and supporting ATE systems for military, avionics and commercial test environments. ******************************************************************* ----- End of forwarded messages From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 07:54:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA17780 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 07:26:46 -0700 Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA17773 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 07:26:41 -0700 Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id JAA06614 for List-managers@GreatCircle.com; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:25:38 -0500 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199507241425.JAA06614@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Another spam To: List-managers@GreatCircle.com (List Managers List) Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 09:25:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Length: 1777 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ere is a new one which I have seen both as forged news approval lines and sent to mailing lists :-((. o / o / o / o / --Cut-here-------X---------------X---------------X---------------X---- o \ o \ o \ o \ Path: wubios.wustl.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!news.starnet.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news-le0.UU.NET!in1.uu.net!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!darumadar.com!ops From: ops@darumadar.com (ops) Newsgroups: sci.med.aids Subject: =H%@@2$`@2"1*'Z Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 22:11:51 GMT Message-ID: <0tSBL33eQtPm6@darumadar.com> Organization: darumadar Lines: 12 Sender: ops@darumadar.com Approved: ops@darumadar.com NNTP-Posting-Host: darumadar.com ********************* * * * FREE MONEY!!! * * * ********************* CAN BE YOURS! If you are an 80-IQ welfare mother producing illegitimate offspring at 9-month intervals starting at the age of 13. Generous funds are also available if you are an illegal alien in need of medical services while you give birth to a new "American" citizen, now that you are north of the Rio Grande. [rest deleted] o / o / o / o / --Cut-here-------X---------------X---------------X---------------X---- o \ o \ o \ o \ -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 18:24:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA09514 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 18:10:56 -0700 Received: from queernet.queernet.org (queernet.queernet.org [140.174.78.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA28692 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:29:37 -0700 Received: by queernet.queernet.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0sa3jn-000D5BC; Sun, 23 Jul 95 09:18 PDT Message-Id: To: Lazlo Nibble cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Subject: Re: Someone trying to loop subscriptions? In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:39:48 -0600. <199507211539.JAA25927@kitsune.swcp.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 09:18:42 -0700 From: "Roger B.A. Klorese" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I got an admin message this morning indicating that someone at the address: > > Steve Alberts > > had tried to subscribe one of my lists to itself. Has anyone else seen any > suspicious activity from this account recently? Not I. I get this type of error a lot. Many newbies think the address they're subscribing IS the list address. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy: the refusal of joy." -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 21:23:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA16093 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:22:03 -0700 Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA16086 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:21:59 -0700 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA16123 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:13:34 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA00270; 24 Jul 95 23:12:56 CDT (Mon) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id XAA00267 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:12:55 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199507250412.XAA00267@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Mailing Lists (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:12:55 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1226 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's someone who wants to spam mailing lists but doesn't yet know how. I'm getting these sorts of messages more often these days. I'm going to start forwarding them to list-managers unless I get a serious objection about it. I've heard I'm in a couple books out on marketing on the Internet, but I haven't checked any books to see if any of them actually recommend spamming lists as a way to reach an audience. Forwarded message: > From jgiglio@pb.net Mon Jul 24 20:46:45 1995 > From: jgiglio@pb.net > Date: Mon, 24 Jul 95 21:34 EDT > Message-Id: <9507242134.AA00671@ns.pb.net> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Length: 382 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Subject: Mailing Lists > To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com > Return-Receipt-To: jgiglio@pb.net > X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.17 > > I recently d/led your most comprehensive list of mailing lists. I was > wondering, what if I did NOT want to subsribe to a list, but was interested in > sending every member of the group the same message? That should be possible, > which I think is the purpose of such groups, but I can not figur eout who I am > supposed to send it to (?!). Your help would be greatly appreciated! > > From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 24 21:53:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA17565 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:47:31 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com (gw2.att.com [192.20.239.134]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA17558 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:47:28 -0700 Received: from cmprime.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA01012; Mon, 24 Jul 95 22:14:44 EDT From: "Paul S R Chisholm" Received: by cmprime.cis.att.com (1.37.109.15/16.2) id AA076378494; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:14:54 -0400 Posted-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:14:54 -0400 Received-Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:14:54 -0400 Original-From: "Paul S R Chisholm" Message-Id: <9507242214.ZM7635@cmprime.cis.att.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:14:54 -0400 References: <199507250124.SAA09752@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.0 06sep94) To: Audrey Borden Subject: Re: NEW RESOURCE FOR THE INTERNET Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Audrey, your e-mail address could have been grabbed from the MIT server (see the FAQ on how to find someone's e-mail address), from Netnews postings, from mailing lists, from Web servers that cache user IDs, from a business card left in a fishbowl. . . . (Frightened yet?-) I've printed your message and the message you enclosed, and with your permission will send it to Consumers Union, the owners of the trademark "Consumer Reports". --PSRC I'm not speaking for the company, I'm just speaking my mind. From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 25 04:24:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA27170 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 03:59:36 -0700 Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id DAA27157 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 03:59:32 -0700 Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id GAA19207; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 06:58:21 -0400 Message-Id: <199507251058.GAA19207@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing Lists (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:12:55 CDT." <199507250412.XAA00267@bonkers.taronga.com> Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 06:58:14 -0400 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Maybe you could put a note in your list of lists to the effect that one should only post messages that were on topic, and that one should NEVER send the same message to all lists. At least the honest people would know better then. (sorry, maybe you already do this, I haven't looked at your list recently.) On the other hand, maybe you could add a phony "all-mailing-lists" list in your list of lists that promised to automatically send the message to all mailing lists, but instead only generated (a) bogus mail from fictitious people claiming to be interested in buying the product, (b) bounce messages from fictitious people (supposedly list members) with broken mailers :) and (c) automatically generated flames from list administrators. (one too many Olga messages and I'm fit to kill...) Keith From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 25 07:55:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA03543 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:26:14 -0700 Received: from chipsworld.bridge.net (chipsworld.bridge.net [204.253.4.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA03535 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 07:26:10 -0700 Received: (from chipper@localhost) by chipsworld.bridge.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id KAA21119; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:19:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:19:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Chiapusio To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: mailer receipts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i got the following message from a list manager on my system, is there something *I* have misconfigured that is causing this? chipperz ---------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:17:26 -0400 From: David Crowder To: chipper@chipsworld.bridge.net Subject: Can we block messages based on subject? Chipper, we've had some damn fools on the list sending receipt confirmations back to the list. Of course, there have been a lot of complaints about it, and I'm not too thrilled with the situation, either. I've asked them to reset their mailers to not request receipts, but one of our subscribers has an interesting idea. What do you think? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi David, Not that this should be your responsibility at all, but I have a suggestion which may help. Of course, I pled total ignorance to this topic, so that it is also possible that I am suggesting something that would be tremendous work for you, but here it goes. I noticed that all message confirmations have RCPT in their subject line. Is there anyway to get majordomo to screen out all messages with RCPT in their subject heading? Like I said, I really have no knowledge about the administrative aspect of running a listserv, I'm sure there are many complicated issues, so I don't know the feasability of my suggestion. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher John Chiapusio BridgeNet Network Administrator http://www.bridge.net 100 South Biscayne Blvd. chipper@bridge.net Miami, FL 33131 aka Electric Asp (EA) http://cwww.bridge.net 305.374.3031 GCM d--- H+ s+:-- g- p1 au+ a- w+ v-(?*) C+++ UL++++$ P++$>+++ L++$ 3E---- N++ K- W--- M--- !V po Y+ t+ 5 !j R G? tv-- b+ D+ B--- e* u* h(-*) f r !n y++ "The whole world is about three drinks behind." -- Humphrey Bogart ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 25 09:11:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA06888 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:30:11 -0700 Received: from suntan.Tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA06881 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:30:07 -0700 Received: from adm.loc3.tandem.com by suntan.Tandem.com (4.1/suntan5.950313) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA27044; Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:28:27 PDT Received: from zorch.loc3.tandem.com by adm.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA09492; Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:28:26 PDT Received: by zorch.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.940209) id AA27610; Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:28:24 PDT Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 08:28:24 PDT From: scott@loc3.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9507251528.AA27610@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> To: moore@cs.utk.edu, arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing Lists (fwd) X-Envelope-To: moore@cs.utk.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >On the other hand, maybe you could add a phony "all-mailing-lists" >list in your list of lists that promised to automatically send the >message to all mailing lists, but instead [...] ...only spammers were subscribed to it? Kind of like the old 'clueless' list. -- Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers +1 408 285 5762 scott@tandem.com Unix System/Network Administrator, Host-, Post-, News- and Web-Master From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 25 09:26:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA07561 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:43:58 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA07553 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 08:43:52 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA16892 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:42:45 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199507251542.JAA16892@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: mailer receipts To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:42:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 621 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I noticed that all message confirmations have RCPT in their subject > line. Is there anyway to get majordomo to screen out all messages with > RCPT in their subject heading? Majordomo has code in place to do this, but the it won't work as shipped because it does a *case-sensitive* search for /^subject: RCPT/ (lowercase 's' on "subject"). This is true of a few other admin bounce checks as well. All the code's in the vicinity of line 200 of 'resend', and is easily patched. (There may be official patches that take care of this; I don't know because I just run my lists -- I don't maintain majordomo itself.) Laz From list-managers-owner Tue Jul 25 18:24:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA05637 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:10:01 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA05630 for ; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:09:57 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id SAA08365; Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:02:30 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: mueller_scott cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mailing Lists (fwd) In-Reply-To: <9507251528.AA27610@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 25 Jul 1995, mueller_scott wrote: > >On the other hand, maybe you could add a phony "all-mailing-lists" > >list in your list of lists that promised to automatically send the > >message to all mailing lists, but instead [...] > > ...only spammers were subscribed to it? Kind of like the old 'clueless' list. This was floating around a long time ago - for people who send unsubscribe messages to list addresses, a "hotel california" mailing list could be created, which would be nothing but: 1) people going "unsubscribe me!" 2) a weekly post about how to unsubscribe Did anybody set this up? Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 04:23:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA27797 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 04:19:29 -0700 Received: from mitvma.mit.edu (MITVMA.MIT.EDU [18.92.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA27790 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 04:19:26 -0700 Message-Id: <199507261119.EAA27790@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from MITVMA.MIT.EDU by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1995; Wed, 26 Jul 95 07:16:36 EDT Received: from MITVMA (NJE origin JEFF@MITVMA) by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2682; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:16:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 07:07:51 EDT From: Jeff Harrington Subject: Re: Olga redux To: John Wagner , list-managers@greatcircle.com, postmaster@mit.edu cc: Alejandro Backer , POSTMAST@mitvma.mit.edu In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:52:43 EDT from Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk hi, Sorry about the delay. Here's the smtp trace at MITVMA, which passed the mail onto bitnet from the main campus mailservers. I've included the postmasters at mit.edu to see if they want to search their logs but I fear it's a fool's errand. Jeff ************** MITVMA SMTP LOG 07/21/95 04:55:46 TCP (13) Helo Domain: MIT.EDU 18.72.1.2 07/21/95 04:55:47 Received Note 15113134 via TCP (13) From <@UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU:romance@in.the.former.USSR.ua> 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA 07/21/95 04:56:15 Delivered Note 15113134 to forwarded to MAILER@MITVMA On Fri, 21 Jul 1995 15:52:43 EDT you said: > >> >Looks like the spammer has struck again. This time, he's coming via UCSF. >> >> Hmm...the one that hit list-managers itself seems to have come via >> UTEXAS' VM system and byu.edu. I've appended the headers for anyone >> who is tracking... >> >> --Wes > >I've got one on Bitnet that claims it came from ucsfvm.ucsf.edu in the BSMTP >MAIL FROM: but when traced back through the logs, the entry point to Bitnet >was the MITVMA smtp server. Maybe the MIT folks can trace this further. > >> > >VMMAIL log from pucc.Princeton.EDU: > >07/21/95 04:56:47 MAIGTS009I Received file 5884 sender: VMBITNET from: MITVMA >MAILER >07/21/95 04:56:47 MAISMT054I BSMTP request transaction start. >07/21/95 04:56:47 MAISMT043I 0001 recipient blocks. >RDR FILE 5885 SENT FROM VMMAIL PUN WAS 5885 RECS 0050 CPY 001 M NOHOLD >NOKEEP >07/21/95 04:56:48 MAILCL034X Mail sent to xxxxxxxx at PUCC >07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT055I BSMTP request transaction end. >07/21/95 04:56:48 MAIGTS009I Received file 5885 sender: VMMAIL from: PUCC >VMMAIL >07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT054I BSMTP request transaction start. >07/21/95 04:56:48 MAISMT043I 0001 recipient blocks. >PUN FILE 5886 SENT TO SMTP RDR AS 2911 RECS 0051 CPY 001 M NOHOLD >NOKEEP > >SMTP log for pucc.Princeton.EDU: > >07/21/95 04:56:48 Received Spool File 2911 From VMMAIL at PUCC >07/21/95 04:56:48 BSMTP Helo Domain: PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU Yours too, I see! >07/21/95 04:56:48 Received Note 00072585 via BSMTP From > <@UCSFVM.UCSF.EDU:romance@IN.THE.FORMER.USSR.UA> >07/21/95 04:56:49 Delivered Note 00072585 to > > From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 06:24:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA29856 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 06:16:10 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id GAA29842 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 06:16:06 -0700 Received: (from jander@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id JAA19545; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:15:09 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:15:09 -0400 From: Jim Anderson Message-Id: <199507261315.JAA19545@panix.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: How to announce new lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'll be starting one or two mailing lists in a couple of weeks, and I'm wondering how one 'announces' their availability. Is there a more-or-less standard way of doing this? From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 07:55:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA01794 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:36:36 -0700 Received: from languru.au.af.mil (languru.au.af.mil [132.60.128.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA01778 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:36:29 -0700 Received: from cap.au.af.mil ([132.60.58.245]) by languru.au.af.mil with SMTP (1.37.109.14/16.2) id AA127176274; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:44:34 -0500 Received: by cap.au.af.mil with Microsoft Mail id <3016638E@cap.au.af.mil>; Wed, 26 Jul 95 08:47:26 PDT From: "Milam, Charles R. 1LT CAP" To: list-managers Subject: RE: How to announce new lists? Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 08:43:00 PDT Message-Id: <3016638E@cap.au.af.mil> Encoding: 17 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'll be starting one or two mailing lists in a couple of weeks, and > I'm wondering how one 'announces' their availability. Is there a > more-or-less standard way of doing this? Just make sure "Olga & Company" don't find out about it! Cheers, Chuck ---------------------------------------------- Charles R. Milam, 1LT CAP Programmer, Information Systems National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol cmilam@cap.au.af.mil From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 07:55:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA02175 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:47:51 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com (uswat.advtech.uswest.com [130.13.16.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA02168 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:47:33 -0700 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA25130; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:46:02 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA05171; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:39 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20911; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:56 -0600 Message-Id: <9507261445.AA20911@lws489.salttn> To: Jeff Harrington Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Olga redux In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Jul 1995 07:07:51 EDT." <199507261119.EAA27790@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:45:56 -0600 From: "Franklin R. Jones" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk . . . From the firewalls list (also on greatcircle,) the following was posted. I assumed that the info had been imparted in this list, but from recent posts here, perhaps not. It confirmed my suspicion about the VM header in the address stream. cheers, fj.. =========================================================================== Franklin R. Jones, K.A.C. Unix OS & Network Specialist Paranet, Inc. consultant to: USWest Service Assurance 7900 E. Union Ave,Suite 1100 frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com Denver, Colorado 80237 =========================================================================== ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM Return-Path: Received: from westhub (westhub.mnet.uswest.com) by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17360; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:49:15 -0600 Received: by westhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id UAA22491 for ; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:48:47 -0600 Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQyzvu02438; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:44:25 -0400 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA09529 for firewalls-outgoing; Mon, 24 Jul 1995 18:12:30 -0700 Received: from hopi.dtcc.edu (hopi.dtcc.edu [138.123.84.240]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA17013 for ; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 14:40:43 -0700 Received: by hopi.dtcc.edu (5.4R3.10/200.1.1.4) id AA28117; Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:39:33 -0400 Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:39:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Ken Weaverling To: firewalls@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Olga mystery solved In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: firewalls-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk content-length: 1546 On Fri, 21 Jul 1995, Brent Chapman wrote: > >was physics1.byu.edu and utepvm.ep.utexas.edu doing? (Yes, yes, I noticed > >that the utexas system is running IBM VM - all bets are off). > > That I can't help you with... In an attempt to squelch the noise here lately, I offer the following news: The mystery behind the identity of the Olga poster has been solved. Complete details are in news.admin.net-abuse.misc. In summary: IBM VM systems are brain dead and believe anything you tell them in the HELO conversation of sendmail, and insert that into received-by: headers without verification. The mail never touched BYU, so lay off the postmaster there. The message originally came from the University of Utah, from an account owned by R. Brock. This was determined by mailing list managers of majordomo sites confirming who sent LISTS commands to these sites around June 29. This user came up time and time again. What STILL has to be determined is whether or not Mr. Brock did this himself or the account was broken into. Regardles, U of U is aware of it, and you can rest assured they are looking into it. But don't expect further satisfaction. U.S. educational institutions are prohibited by law from disclosing what -- if any -- disciplinary measures are taken against students. NOW, can we get back to discussions regarding firewalls -- PLEASE!!! - -- Ken Weaverling weave@dtcc.edu |*| Manager of Computer Services |*| Stanton/Wilmington Campuses of |*| Delaware Technical & Community College |*| ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 10:55:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06306 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:34:43 -0700 Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA06297 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:34:40 -0700 Received: from adm.loc3.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.950313) for id KAA04149; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:09:59 -0700 Received: from zorch.loc3.tandem.com by adm.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA22862; Wed, 26 Jul 95 10:09:58 PDT Received: by zorch.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.940209) id AA08251; Wed, 26 Jul 95 10:09:58 PDT Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 10:09:58 PDT From: scott@loc3.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9507261709.AA08251@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> To: jander@panix.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to announce new lists? X-Envelope-To: jander@panix.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'll be starting one or two mailing lists in a couple of weeks, and >I'm wondering how one 'announces' their availability. Is there a >more-or-less standard way of doing this? David Lawrence frequently accepts such announcements for news.announce.newgroups. -- Scott Hazen Mueller, Tandem Computers +1 408 285 5762 scott@tandem.com Unix System/Network Administrator, Host-, Post-, News- and Web-Master From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 11:26:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA07771 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:08:57 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA07759 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:08:54 -0700 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id LAA01968; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:06:09 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA17229; Wed, 26 Jul 95 11:02:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 11:02:48 -0700 Message-Id: <9507261802.AA17229@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Re: How to announce new lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >David Lawrence frequently accepts such announcements for >news.announce.newgroups. So what is Mr. Lawrence's e-mail address? Or do you simply post to the USENET group? -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 11:54:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA08965 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:39:52 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA08958 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:39:15 -0700 Received: (from jander@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id OAA09022; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:37:00 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:37:00 -0400 From: Jim Anderson Message-Id: <199507261837.OAA09022@panix.com> To: scott@loc3.tandem.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <9507261709.AA08251@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> (scott@loc3.tandem.com) Subject: Re: How to announce new lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "m" == mueller scott writes: >> I'll be starting one or two mailing lists in a couple of weeks, >> and I'm wondering how one 'announces' their availability. Is >> there a more-or-less standard way of doing this? m> David Lawrence frequently accepts such announcements for m> news.announce.newgroups. Thanks, I'll check it out. From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 12:12:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA08732 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:32:05 -0700 Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA08723 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:32:01 -0700 Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id OAA02058 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:31:42 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 14:31:42 -0400 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199507261831.OAA02058@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to announce new lists? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>I'll be starting one or two mailing lists in a couple of weeks, and >>I'm wondering how one 'announces' their availability. Is there a >>more-or-less standard way of doing this? > >David Lawrence frequently accepts such announcements for >news.announce.newgroups. One may also send a dispatch to NEW-LIST, a BITNET mailing list solely dedicated to announcing new lists and changes to existing lists. I've appended a recent NEW-LIST message; instructions for requesting more information follow the message. --Wes >sportsflash on sportsflash-request@gospelcom.net > > sportsflash is a new, weekly, one-way mailing list for everyone > interested in the latest news about Christians in collegiate and > professional sports. It covers the activities of Christian athletes, > management and coaches as well as the activities of major Christian > athletic organizations, such as Fellowship of Christian Athletes and > Athletes in Action. > > The weekly mailings are excerpted from the Christian Sports Flash > Weekly Web pages: > http://www.gospelcom.net/gf/sf > > To subscribe, send a message to sportsflash-request@gospelcom.net > with the following message in the body: > > subscribe youraddress > > For more information about the list, please e-mail andy@gospelcom.net > > Owner: Andy Padjen andy@gospelcom.net > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information > provided by the original submitter. We do NOT verify the technical > accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we > necessarily agree with them. We do not warranty or guarantee any > services which might be announced - use at your own risk. For more > information send e-mail to LISTSERV@VM1.NoDak.EDU with the command > GET NEW-LIST README in the body. mgh From list-managers-owner Wed Jul 26 16:38:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA12352 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:20:54 -0700 Received: from suntan.tandem.com (suntan.tandem.com [192.216.221.8]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA12342 for ; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:20:48 -0700 Received: from adm.loc3.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.950313) for id NAA09590; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:04:08 -0700 Received: from zorch.loc3.tandem.com by adm.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA24994; Wed, 26 Jul 95 13:04:07 PDT Received: by zorch.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.940209) id AA09952; Wed, 26 Jul 95 13:04:02 PDT Date: Wed, 26 Jul 95 13:04:02 PDT From: scott@loc3.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9507262004.AA09952@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> To: alan@znyx.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How to announce new lists? X-Envelope-To: alan@znyx.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >So what is Mr. Lawrence's e-mail address? Or do you simply post >to the USENET group? He's the moderator, so a posting to the group should work. If it doesn't, mail to news-announce-newgroups@moderators.uu.net. \scott From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 10:15:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA11475 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:51:46 -0700 Received: from ibridge.iohk.com (ibridge.iohk.com [202.21.128.82]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA11460 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:51:35 -0700 Received: from igate.iohk.com (igate.iohk.com [202.21.128.81]) by ibridge.iohk.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA05539 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:50:04 +0800 Received: (from cditt@localhost) by igate.iohk.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA09291; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:49:56 +0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Mailing List Needs a Home! From: cditt@iohk.com (Charlie Dittmeier) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:47:20 +0900 Message-ID: <8Kx5mWT7u44D075yn@iohk.com> Lines: 20 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk We are trying to establish an automated mailing list to use as a communications and discussion link for the leadership, in Asia, Africa, Latin America, and the US, of the Maryknoll Catholic missionary group. Would anyone know of a site that might generously host such a list for free? It would be a low-volume list, but we have found that maintaining a manual list is impractical because people are often away from their home sites and reliable comms links. Thanks for any help! :) Peace, Charlie |>>>>>>>>>>> Charlie Dittmeier>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>| |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cditt@iohk.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>| |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kowloon, Hong Kong >>>>>>>>>| From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 11:15:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA14501 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:08:50 -0700 Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA14493 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:08:44 -0700 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id NAA00922; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:11:19 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:11:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: intentinal mail loops Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have been having a program on a couple of lists at my site lately and am interested in getting some advice on how to deal with this in the future. Luckily it has stopped for now. What has been happeneing is that members that want to be unsubscribed but don't remember how are setting up intentonal mail loops and resending all mailk from the list back to the list. This is taxing on the machine the lists are running on, expensive for the people who have to pay for mail, and very annoying for everybody else. What is the best way to deal with this? We have been unsubscribing the people as quickly as possible, but this is still generating a large amount of mail, the postamaster are giving the "he paid for his service, we can't do anything" and what it seems like is happeneing is that one person does this and get unsubscribed and then the other people tht want unsubscribed think that this is the way to get unsubscribed and do the same thing. There have been three of these in the past month. Any ideas on the best way to deal with this in the future? When people do this and get what they want (unsubscribed) it only encoourages others to do the same. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 13:40:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA19938 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:38:09 -0700 Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA19922 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:38:04 -0700 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id PAA01507; Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:40:35 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 15:40:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: Eric Thomas cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: intentinal mail loops In-Reply-To: <199507272002.UAA14462@linux-k4ry.awis.auburn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, Eric Thomas wrote: > This is all academic since LISTSERV catches such loops, but I would I am running majordomo that does not catch such loops, so for me it is not academic. Brian From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 14:14:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA21117 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:06:38 -0700 Received: from rookery.penguin.net (rookery.penguin.net [204.29.198.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA21103 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:06:33 -0700 Received: (from ron@localhost) by rookery.penguin.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA10032; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:02:38 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 17:02:36 -0400 From: Ron Fitzherbert Subject: Re: intentinal mail loops To: Brian Hartsfield cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I too would like to hear the answer to this one -- I am in the process of deciding on what list management software to use for running between 10 and 20 lists -- these lists will no t have a large number of subscribers, but it could still cause problems if it happens. I can think of a couple of dozen "nasty" ways of handling the problem, but in the interest of having a good relationship with other sysadmins I would think that the "nasty" solutions are not the best route to go. Other than asking the party involved to please stop doing it (or just unsubscribing them) is there an easy, clean, "nice" way of handling problems like this? Ron ---------------- Ronald J. Fitzherbert, President --------------- Flying Penguin Productions - Arlington, VA (USA) Interactive Electronic Communications 1.703.358.9219 (voice) 1.703.522.2798 (telefax) -------------------- http://www.penguin.net/ -------------------- On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Brian Hartsfield wrote: > > I have been having a program on a couple of lists at my site lately and > am interested in getting some advice on how to deal with this in the > future. Luckily it has stopped for now. > > What has been happeneing is that members that want to be unsubscribed but > don't remember how are setting up intentonal mail loops and resending all > mailk from the list back to the list. This is taxing on the machine the -- deleted -- From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 16:40:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA28159 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:11:26 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA28137 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 16:11:19 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id TAA19338; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:10:12 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 19:10:12 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: indexes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone with information about the makeindex.pl program get back to me directly at jdunn@cloud9.net I would like to know a little more about this beast. Nothing to dificult, just don't know how nor do I like the way the thing is behaving on my list. THanks. Guiding Eyes for the Blind 's home in cyber space. http://www.cloud9.net/~jdunn/gebhome.html From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 23:40:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA22526 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:13:56 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA18956 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:12:42 -0700 Message-Id: <199507272012.NAA18956@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 5768; Thu, 27 Jul 95 22:07:09 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1439; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:07:09 +0200 Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:01:35 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: intentinal mail loops To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Brian Hartsfield In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:11:16 -0400 (EDT) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is all academic since LISTSERV catches such loops, but I would create the fabled "clueless" list and, instead of simply unsubscribing them, I'd move them to that list. They could then put it into a loop to their heart's content - all of them at once, multiple loops! It wouldn't get them unsubscribed but it would keep their service provider's machine busy, and then it would be interesting to see if the "they've paid for this, can't do anything" line still holds :-) Most service providers put a whole bunch of users on a not-so-large machine to save money. The last thing they need is a couple hundred sendmail processes sending junk in a loop. When they find the user did this on purpose, they'll get quite upset and he may well lose his account. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Jul 27 23:43:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA22418 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 23:10:18 -0700 Received: from hera.cuci.nl (cuci.ixe.net [205.244.45.192]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA17216 for ; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:23:01 -0700 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.6.12/BuGless_1.00) id VAA15760 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 27 Jul 1995 21:21:45 +0200 Message-Id: <199507271921.VAA15760@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 21:21:45 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brian Hartsfield's message as of 1995 Jul 26 Wed 13:11. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: intentinal mail loops Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brian Hartsfield wrote: >What has been happeneing is that members that want to be unsubscribed but >don't remember how are setting up intentonal mail loops and resending all >mailk from the list back to the list. This is taxing on the machine the This is a novel way of unsubscribing, haven't seen that before. >we can't do anything" and what it seems like is happeneing is that one >person does this and get unsubscribed and then the other people tht want >unsubscribed think that this is the way to get unsubscribed and do the >same thing. There have been three of these in the past month. Which makes me kind of wonder, what kind of audience does your list attract? In order to do things like this, these people almost have to be vandalistic by nature. >Any ideas on the best way to deal with this in the future? When people >do this and get what they want (unsubscribed) it only encoourages others >to do the same. You have two options, basically: 1. Detect the loop at all times and don't feed it back in again. 2. Do not unsubscribe these idiots from the list when this happens, just make sure that submissions from them land in /dev/null. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Hourly rates at the local mechanic shop: basic labor rate $40, if you wait $60, if you watch $80, if you help $100, if you laugh $140. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 28 10:41:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06437 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:16:30 -0700 Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp11.netcom.com [163.179.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA06430 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:16:28 -0700 Received: by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA04217; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:04:37 -0700 Received: from iceman.triad.com by triad.com (5.61/SMI-4.1) id AA11359; Fri, 28 Jul 95 09:43:35 -0700 Received: by iceman.triad.com (5.65/TRSC-4.0) id AA03595; Fri, 28 Jul 95 09:43:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 09:43:19 -0700 From: mgg@iceman.triad.com (Mark Galbraith) Message-Id: <9507281643.AA03595@iceman.triad.com> To: bh@hq.stargame.org Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: (message from Brian Hartsfield on Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:11:16 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: Re: intentinal mail loops Organization: Triad Systems, Livermore CA X-Phone: +1 510 449 0606 x6513 X-Mailer: Emacs-19.19 X-Attribution: mgg Reply-To: mgg@triad.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- How about filtering all mail submitted, rejecting any that have some keyword from the footer which gets applied to every message on the list. If the footer is present, the message must have been through the list once before. - -- Mark Galbraith Senior UNIX Engineer/Postmaster PGP Key (E3468605) = 1C B9 74 81 AD 5C 57 09 69 0B AC 09 7F 65 D6 F6 "Those that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin (1773) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMBkTniGorEbjRoYFAQF6sQQAg46E0SOKEBR/bTnc88HM+fgjfDqRYw8E 5BrrlWYIkoBUWq/OdPslNjO12WLHeIq3pHsZV7LuBbSOhJXblFdXY2MPksl3GW0j AzBnaF97K5XFiBMO+5/8kGFNYdAt6eIwsLis6BV3uyaCb3rXEJF3vYFuQWhJk7gI MHrsS9QvlqI= =iq+s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 28 16:55:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA11713 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 16:28:42 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA11450; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 16:26:24 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id TAA02256; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:25:15 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: astonishing to hear Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I find it hard to believe that NO ONe has an answer to my repeated question. Neither Brent chapman of the acclaimed majordomo, nor any of you on the list have an answer? It must be mail problems so I will repost. My list has a file repository so users can request files from the server. The server sends an index created by makeindex.pl, of which I would like to know more about. The makeindex program generates sloppy indexes with inaccurate descriptions. How does this work, how besides constantly editing my index do I accomplish a nicely generated , and accurately describd list of available files? I hope to hear from someone on this matter soon, as I have to present this list and other net resources to a vp and head of development. Thanks in advance to anyone with any information. From list-managers-owner Fri Jul 28 20:13:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA03297 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:46:25 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA03252 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:46:15 -0700 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sc1tl-000FGXC; Fri, 28 Jul 95 21:45 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: intentional mail loops To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 21:45:09 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9507281643.AA03595@iceman.triad.com> from "Mark Galbraith" at Jul 28, 95 09:43:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1948 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mark Galbraith suggested, | How about filtering all mail submitted, rejecting any that have some | keyword from the footer which gets applied to every message on the list. | If the footer is present, the message must have been through the list | once before. Too, too many honest but misguided list members or members employed at firms with misguided MIS departments are stuck with mailers that can quote someone else's text in mail only by appending it unindented after their own text. They have a choice of not including it at all or letting the mailer append it after they've completed their own comments, so they have no chance to edit it down. Others have mailers that do that append quoted text at the bottom, flush left, by default; and they don't know how (or don't bother) to edit down their quotations from previous posts. Those who know how but don't bother might deserve some degree of disapproval, but far, far less than those who create deliberate loops to try to shut the list down! At any rate there are large numbers of legitimate posts that will still have that same footer, below any .signature or new text. You can't use it to label an article as a malicious bounceback. I wonder: do these looping messages have the same Message-Id: as the origi- nal? If so, SmartList already has it licked since it can keep a Message-Id: cache and divert or trash duplicates. My first reaction was that most who know how to get a new Message-Id: generated also know how to sign off a list, but there are three flaws to that logic, I know: 1. the offender's system might be changing the Message-Id: without help from the perp; 2. a jerk who knows how to get a new Message-Id: and also knows perfectly well how to unsubscribe could have other excuses for forcing the loop; and 3. it is quite possible that someone would know how to change a Message-Id: (and would think of doing it) without knowing how to sign off the list. From list-managers-owner Sat Jul 29 21:09:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA14488 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 21:04:00 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA14479 for ; Sat, 29 Jul 1995 21:03:57 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA13843 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 29 Jul 1995 21:02:53 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA02444 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 29 Jul 1995 21:02:53 -0700 Message-Id: <199507300402.AA02444@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: intentional mail loops In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 29 Jul 95 21:02:53 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David wrote: > I wonder: do these looping messages have the same Message-Id: as the origi- > nal? If so, SmartList already has it licked since it can keep a Message-Id: > cache and divert or trash duplicates. My first reaction was that most who > know how to get a new Message-Id: generated also know how to sign off a list, > but there are three flaws to that logic, I know: > > 1. the offender's system might be changing the Message-Id: without help from > the perp; > 2. a jerk who knows how to get a new Message-Id: and also knows perfectly > well how to unsubscribe could have other excuses for forcing the loop; and > 3. it is quite possible that someone would know how to change a Message-Id: > (and would think of doing it) without knowing how to sign off the list. Unfortunately, some loops are just inherently uncatchable -- no unmoderated list in existance can perfectly discriminate between all looped mail with a different message-ID and legitmate replies. Luckily, most loops have certain features (the same messag-ID or a header indicating a programmed response). As to the response of the postmaster who refused to discipline their user for mail-bombing a mailing list (yes, setting up an intentional mail loop is mail-bombing), my response would be "fine, then no one at your site will ever be permitted to join any lists run by me". And I would report the site here. I would gladly kick all users off my lists from such rogue sites. Maybe if enough legimate users get pissed at being black-balled from mailing lists, the postmaster would see the wisdom of not allowing users to abuse mail privileges. So tell us, what site is this? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 09:39:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04000 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:38:49 -0700 Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA03993 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:38:46 -0700 Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id MAA14019; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:37:37 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:37:37 -0400 Message-Id: <199507301637.MAA14019@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: jeff dunn From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: astonishing to hear Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk jeff dunn thinks we have an obligation to make him look good for his V.P. and complains sarcastically: >I find it hard to believe that NO ONe has an answer to my repeated >question. >Neither Brent chapman of the acclaimed majordomo, nor any of you on the >list have an answer? It must be mail problems so I will repost. *** deletia >I hope to hear from someone on this matter soon, as I have to present >this list and other net resources to a vp and head of development. I guess you didn't read the introduction to this list. Do not be surprised that others ignore you when you ignore the welcome message which states: > >Welcome to the list-managers mailing list! >Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for >instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate >for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the >mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, >for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the >documentation that came with the package to find out where the support >list for that package is hosted. Maybe the VP should see your attention to detail and the great effort you've made here. :-( Brent Chapman has been very good about responding to questions that are posted here (and belong here). From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 10:09:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04500 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:59:59 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA04493 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:59:56 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id MAA05620; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:58:52 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:58:52 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: Ken Bourbeau cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: astonishing to hear In-Reply-To: <199507301637.MAA14019@nic.iii.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Are you that spitefull to post your biting wit to me and the list twice. Jeez I posted questions to majordomo many times with no answer so I thought I would get some help here. I see you sir have nothing better to do than attack "Newbies" I have been through the docs and I only know that Makeindex is a perl script subordenate to the mail management software. As I manage a list, I did not think it wrong to ask after asking over there. Have a nice day. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 10:12:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04313 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:55:18 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA04306 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:55:13 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id MAA05502; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:53:58 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: Ken Bourbeau cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: astonishing to hear In-Reply-To: <199507301637.MAA14019@nic.iii.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well I really don't think you have to be rude about it. I have posted to majordomo-users and got no reply list servers have an index and get feature if I am not mistaken so I did not think it a big deal. Makeindex.pl is a perl script that I thought is widely used. Also considering how often spam messages are reposted here and respamed with replies I did not think that you guys were so damn stuffy. When a program like majordomo or listserv uses a suite of programs documentation should be more specific in refering to useful sites for information. I still have yet to get a good reply. When you have a problem sir that is residing between the cracks so to speak. I hope others are more considerate to you, than you are to others. On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Ken Bourbeau wrote: > > jeff dunn thinks we have an obligation to > make him look good for his V.P. and complains sarcastically: > > >I find it hard to believe that NO ONe has an answer to my repeated >question. > >Neither Brent chapman of the acclaimed majordomo, nor any of you on the > >list have an answer? It must be mail problems so I will repost. > *** deletia > >I hope to hear from someone on this matter soon, as I have to present > >this list and other net resources to a vp and head of development. > > I guess you didn't read the introduction to this list. Do not be > surprised that others ignore you when you ignore the welcome > message which states: > > > > >Welcome to the list-managers mailing list! > >Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for > >instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate > >for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the > >mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, > >for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM). Check the > >documentation that came with the package to find out where the support > >list for that package is hosted. > > Maybe the VP should see your attention to detail and the great effort > you've made here. :-( > > Brent Chapman has been very good about responding to questions that > are posted here (and belong here). > > > > > > From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 11:09:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA05732 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 10:51:55 -0700 Received: from [198.102.244.39] (pm-ppp-1.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.39]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA05725; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 10:51:47 -0700 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 10:50:43 -0800 To: jeff dunn , Ken Bourbeau From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: astonishing to hear Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:58 7/30/95, jeff dunn wrote: >Are you that spitefull to post your biting wit to me and the list twice. >Jeez I posted questions to majordomo many times with no answer so I >thought I would get some help here. I see you sir have nothing better >to do than attack "Newbies" I have been through the docs and I only >know that Makeindex is a perl script subordenate to the mail management >software. As I manage a list, I did not think it wrong to ask after >asking over there. > >Have a nice day. With respect to whether this belongs on the List-Managers mailing list, Ken is right, you're wrong, and your attitude hardly encourages anyone to be friendly or helpful. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 14:40:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA09287 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:29:14 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA09280 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:29:11 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id RAA16762; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:28:11 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:28:11 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: appology Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken? you were rightno buts no excuses. I should not have been flustered in my post, and I will make a point of taking a breath before ever writing email again. In retrospect I would have been just as ticked off as you, if I read my letter. Regardless of what happened to me when I posted it, mail can get bounced or glossed over, and sh't can happen. I have appologized to all parties concerne. I will reside to reading mail for a while, and ask of you all for forgiveness. From list-managers-owner Sun Jul 30 14:43:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08765 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:15:22 -0700 Received: from cloud9.net (cloud9.net [168.100.1.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA08758; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 14:15:19 -0700 Received: by cloud9.net (8.6.12/940717-Cloud 9 Internet) id RAA15875; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:14:18 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:14:18 -0400 (EDT) From: jeff dunn To: Brent Chapman cc: Ken Bourbeau , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: astonishing to hear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I keep getting reposts of these messages.. I want to once again formally appologize to Brent To the list and I have also posted an appology to my site administrator. I guess I took Ken's reply to close to heart as I am managing my list as part of a greater volunteer project. It was after many politely asked question with no reply that I posted here as I thought the problem I was having was not majordomo specific. I am very sorry for any missconductt on this list. Please forgive me. From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 15:06:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA22848 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 22:16:15 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA22820 for ; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 22:16:11 -0700 Received: from relay4.uu.net(192.48.96.14) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022815; Sun Jul 30 22:15:20 1995 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzasi17863; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 01:14:16 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA19642; Sun, 30 Jul 95 22:02:25 PDT Message-Id: <9507310502.AA19642@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 22:02:24 -0700 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? content-length: 1601 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" (list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to index your mailing list", followed by a list of (in this case 100) apparently random list-owner or list-server addresses (none of which were lists I have anything to do with)? No contact information, no explanation, nothing. My reply is appended. Has anybody heard of these people? -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com My reply: > From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 21:48:25 -0700 > In-Reply-To: <199507310448.VAA13093@cochese.atext.com> > To: List Boy > Cc: postmaster@atext.com, joe@atext.com (Domain admin contact), mark@mainstreet.net (Domain technical contact) > Subject: Re: Architext would like to index your mailing list > > > [List of 100 mailing list request addresses deleted] > > Excuse me, but what is this about? What is Architext, why did you > send me this mail, and what do the list of 100 lists, none of which > appear to be mine, have to do with me, and just what does it mean to > have one's list "indexed"? Which ONE of my lists do you want to > "index" (I run several lists at several sites)? > > And while I'm at it, a few more questions: why is there no contact > information besides the From line of "List Boy ", > and most pertinently, what do you home to accomplish by sending > completely clueless and inexplicable messages to mailing list managers? > > Regards, > -- > Michael C. Berch > mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 15:06:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08716 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:51:38 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08703 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:51:35 -0700 Received: from relay4.uu.net(192.48.96.14) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008698; Mon Jul 31 14:51:05 1995 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzaux21899; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:50:02 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA21112; Mon, 31 Jul 95 14:38:05 PDT Message-Id: <9507312138.AA21112@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:38:04 -0700 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? content-length: 1601 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" (list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to index your mailing list", followed by a list of (in this case 100) apparently random list-owner or list-server addresses (none of which were lists I have anything to do with)? No contact information, no explanation, nothing. My reply is appended. Has anybody heard of these people? -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com My reply: > From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) > Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 21:48:25 -0700 > In-Reply-To: <199507310448.VAA13093@cochese.atext.com> > To: List Boy > Cc: postmaster@atext.com, joe@atext.com (Domain admin contact), mark@mainstreet.net (Domain technical contact) > Subject: Re: Architext would like to index your mailing list > > > [List of 100 mailing list request addresses deleted] > > Excuse me, but what is this about? What is Architext, why did you > send me this mail, and what do the list of 100 lists, none of which > appear to be mine, have to do with me, and just what does it mean to > have one's list "indexed"? Which ONE of my lists do you want to > "index" (I run several lists at several sites)? > > And while I'm at it, a few more questions: why is there no contact > information besides the From line of "List Boy ", > and most pertinently, what do you home to accomplish by sending > completely clueless and inexplicable messages to mailing list managers? > > Regards, > -- > Michael C. Berch > mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 16:05:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA10486 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:35:56 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA10441 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:35:47 -0700 Received: from bh.mindspring.com(168.121.33.204) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010393; Mon Jul 31 15:35:25 1995 Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id RAA01868; Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:37:51 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 17:37:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Hartsfield To: "Michael C. Berch" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? In-Reply-To: <9507310502.AA19642@postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Michael C. Berch wrote: > Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" > (list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to > index your mailing list", followed by a list of (in this case 100) > apparently random list-owner or list-server addresses (none of which > were lists I have anything to do with)? > > No contact information, no explanation, nothing. My reply is > appended. Has anybody heard of these people? Sounds to me like somebody was trying to set up an automated program to do spamming or get information to do spamming and instead of going through the list one entry at a time, it mailed the list of who he as going to hit to your list. :-) Brian From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 16:14:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA11105 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:45:07 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA11097 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:45:04 -0700 Received: from isp1.isp.net(204.139.9.12) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma011086; Mon Jul 31 15:44:33 1995 Received: from outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org ([204.153.195.10]) by mail.isp.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA14016; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:41:49 -0700 Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org by outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0sd3ZP-0006wkC; Mon, 31 Jul 95 15:44 PDT Received: by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0sd3ai-000CnUC; Mon, 31 Jul 95 15:45 PDT Message-Id: From: Alan Millar Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? To: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:45:43 -0800 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9507310502.AA19642@postmodern.com> from "Michael C. Berch" at Jul 30, 95 10:02:24 pm Reply-to: Alan Millar X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 598 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Verily didst Michael C. Berch sayeth: > > Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" > (list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to FWIW, I got it too. The funny part is that it was mailed to Majordomo at my site, and Majordomo's reply to him bounced! He seems to have mail-bombed himself; his system can't keep up with the replies... - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar/ "Windows/NT - From the people who brought you EDLIN" -Herb Peyerl From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 17:00:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA15767 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:47:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA15684 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:47:25 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com(204.62.129.130) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015635; Mon Jul 31 16:46:37 1995 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id QAA15383; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:45:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:45:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: "Michael C. Berch" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? In-Reply-To: <9507310502.AA19642@postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 30 Jul 1995, Michael C. Berch wrote: > Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" > (list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to > index your mailing list", followed by a list of (in this case 100) > apparently random list-owner or list-server addresses (none of which > were lists I have anything to do with)? Yup, got it too, twice. Architext is in the full-text-search business, so I wouldn't ascribe spam/marketing intentions to them. They might be asking whether the list owners were interested in having atext perform list archiving functions for them (for free in exchange for some sort of revenue model they might have based on traffic, i.e. sponsoring). I can't find anything on their web site related to this however. Brian From list-managers-owner Mon Jul 31 19:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA27040 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:00:38 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA27016 for ; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:00:32 -0700 Received: from suntan.tandem.com(192.216.221.8) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026975; Mon Jul 31 19:00:17 1995 Received: from adm.loc3.tandem.com by suntan.tandem.com (8.6.12/suntan5.950313) for id SAA17172; Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:07:51 -0700 Received: from zorch.loc3.tandem.com by adm.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6main.940209) id AA20885; Mon, 31 Jul 95 18:07:49 PDT Received: by zorch.loc3.tandem.com (4.1/6leaf.940209) id AA00194; Mon, 31 Jul 95 18:07:48 PDT Date: Mon, 31 Jul 95 18:07:48 PDT From: scott@loc3.tandem.com (mueller_scott) Message-Id: <9508010107.AA00194@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> To: mcb@postmodern.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? X-Envelope-To: mcb@postmodern.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Has anyone else gotten a very strange spam-like mailing from "List Boy" >(list@cochese.atext.com) with the subject, "Architext would like to >index your mailing list", followed by a list of (in this case 100) >apparently random list-owner or list-server addresses (none of which >were lists I have anything to do with)? > >No contact information, no explanation, nothing. My reply is >appended. Has anybody heard of these people? I got this a couple of weeks ago: From: Mailing List Server To: fusion-request@zorch.sf-bay.org Subject: Architext would like to archive your mailing list Hi, Architext is an exciting new media navigation company. We're developing a service designed to give users powerful ways to search and browse the content available over the internet. We're calling our service Bullseye!, and we'd like to include your mailing list(s) in the content that we index and archive. Other content will include web pages, newsgroups and thousands of editorial reviews. Basic searching and browsing will be free for all users; we also plan to offer profiling services for a nominal fee. Would it be acceptable for Architext to subscribe to your list(s) as a regular user and to keep archives of the list(s) content? This content will always be freely searchable by any user of the internet. In exchange for your permission to index your list(s), we'd like to offer you profiling services free of charge for one year. That way you will be notified about new web pages and news articles that match your profile. So you can stay abreast of new developments and make sure you have the most current information available as it comes out. Don't be the last on your block to get profiling from Bullseye! Architext was recently voted one of the top 25 cool technology companies by Fortune magazine (July 10 issue) and was featured on the cover of this March's Red Herring magazine. For more information on Architext, check out http://www.atext.com. Bullseye! will be opening soon (around August 15) and we hope that we can include your list(s) in this exciting service. If you agree to allow us to archive your list(s), please add us as the user list@atext.com (non-digest form, please). And drop us a line telling us which list(s) you've subscribed us to. Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you. Jeff Young, Bullseye Project Engineer --- EOT --- Looks like they goobered up their software this time around. It was addressed to two other lists I maintain - I didn't get a repeat to the fusion-digest address. I've been meaning to ask if anyone else got the first one, and what they thought about it. I've been trying to decide whether to round-file it or not. \scott