From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 04:00:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA24568 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:51:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id DAA24519 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:51:26 -0700 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com(192.100.81.129) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma024463; Tue Aug 1 03:50:24 1995 Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id DAA00101; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:47:35 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 03:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Cunningham X-Sender: scottec@netcom16 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Using a Program vs Moderation by hand In-Reply-To: <199508010230.TAA28508@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone out there moderating and/or running a list by hand as apposed to by a program like majordomo or listserv? Are there any advantages other than the obvious human element? (ie moderation by content with strategic canned replies, catching spams, avoiding technical dificulties etc) Are there utilities to aid in this and if so what. Thanks in advance - Scott Edward Cunningham [scottec@netcom.com] Seattle, Washington, USA - From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 04:31:42 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA25194 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 04:06:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA25186 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 04:06:42 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025183; Tue Aug 1 04:05:51 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:49 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:48 +0200 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:04:48 +0200 Message-Id: <199508011104.4127.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9508010107.AA00194@zorch.loc3.tandem.com> (scott@loc3.tandem.com) Subject: Re: Clueless mail from atext.com (Architext)? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Scott Mueller] | I've been meaning to ask if anyone else got the first one, and | what they thought about it. I've been trying to decide whether to | round-file it or not. I sent a request for a guest account so that I could try out their search facility. They promise to provide basic searching for free to the Internet community. I was not impressed by their so-called natural language query engine, and got a lot of irrelevant hits (e.g. "Norwegian music" produced anything related to Norway, none of it about music). This might be due to a small information base. Anyhow, I can't see how it hurts to let them do the archiving. If someone finds out about Bel Canto and my mailing list through them, it's a bonus. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 08:34:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA01278 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:10:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA01253 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 08:10:19 -0700 Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov(128.219.128.125) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001247; Tue Aug 1 08:09:30 1995 Received: (from de5@localhost) by sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) id LAA01621; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 11:06:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Sill Message-Id: <199508011506.LAA01621@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV> To: Michelle Dick Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: intentional mail loops In-Reply-To: <199507300402.AA02444@bolero.rahul.net> References: <199507300402.AA02444@bolero.rahul.net> X-Mailer: VM Version 5.87 (beta) with GNU Emacs 19.12 XEmacs Lucid of Wed Jun 21 1995 on morpheus (irix) Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M wrote: > >Unfortunately, some loops are just inherently uncatchable -- no >unmoderated list in existance can perfectly discriminate between >all looped mail with a different message-ID and legitmate replies. Perhaps, but a few simple measures like checking for duplicate message IDs, an X-Loop header, message body checksums, and site-based rate limits (e.g., allow no more than N messages/hour from any host) effectively take care of almost all accidental and intentional loops. -Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 14:03:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA14148 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:40:19 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA14109 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:40:13 -0700 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com(192.100.81.124) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014100; Tue Aug 1 13:39:33 1995 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA26723; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:36:02 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-Floppyright: (c)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 13:38:30 -0700 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk THEIR VERSION: >Architext is an exciting new media navigation company. We're >developing a service designed to give users powerful ways to search >and browse the content available over the internet. > >We're calling our service Bullseye!, and we'd like to include your >mailing list(s) in the content that we index and archive. Other >content will include web pages, newsgroups and thousands of editorial >reviews. Basic searching and browsing will be free for all users; we >also plan to offer profiling services for a nominal fee. > >Would it be acceptable for Architext to subscribe to your list(s) as a >regular user and to keep archives of the list(s) content? This content >will always be freely searchable by any user of the internet. > >In exchange for your permission to index your list(s), we'd like to >offer you profiling services free of charge for one year. That way you >will be notified about new web pages and news articles that match your >profile. So you can stay abreast of new developments and make sure you >have the most current information available as it comes out. Don't be >the last on your block to get profiling from Bullseye! > >Architext was recently voted one of the top 25 cool technology >companies by Fortune magazine (July 10 issue) and was featured on the >cover of this March's Red Herring magazine. For more information on >Architext, check out http://www.atext.com. > >Bullseye! will be opening soon (around August 15) and we hope that we >can include your list(s) in this exciting service. > >If you agree to allow us to archive your list(s), please add us as the >user list@atext.com (non-digest form, please). And drop us a line >telling us which list(s) you've subscribed us to. > >Thanks for your time, and I look forward to hearing from you. _MY VERSION_: Archietext is an exciting new information scam company. It gives us hard-ons just thinking about how cool and idea this is. What we're doing is fishing around to see if we can throw up enough buzzwords to convince a few hundred thousand hapless suckers to fork over a few bucks apiece and send us their own list-content for free so we can sell it back to them. Cool, huh?! All _we_ have to do is archive lots of stuff, stamp it with our company name, maybe format the data a bit for some kludgey command-line text searches and we're in bidness. Nothing to it. We're calling our service Bullsh*t!, and we'd like to scavenge your mailing list(s) for all the content that we'll have to index and archive so we can pretend that we came up with. Other sources of content will include people's personal web pages, whole batches of newsgroups that we discovered we can copy off MIT's servers and thousands of editorial reviews that we think we can snatch and grab without anyone much noticing until we have so much money to pay a team of shark-lawyers that it won't matter anyway - they can sue our "corporation" until they're blue in the face. Searching and browsing on their own names and email addresses will be free at first for all users, but we also (and here's the kicker that convinced our Mom's to invest and buy us a couple of Suns) we also plan to scrounge around on the net for a zillion email addresses that we will then "organize" and resell to marketers who are still sitting on the fence about whether to give us pots of money to "connect them to the information super-railroad." Man, we get the greatest ideas getting stoned down in the garage, I tellya. Fortunately, we wrote this one down! So, uh, would it be acceptable for Archietext to copy all your list-files and keep archives of the list(s) content? The headers of the content will always be freely (and by that we mean that you'll still have "free will" in the Existentialist sense) searchable by any user on the Internet (for a nominal fee, of course). In exchange for your permission to index your list(s), we'd like to offer you some shiny beads and trinkets and the option to be a voyeur of other people's data free of connection charges for one year (we'll still find a way to charge you something by cooking up some "premium" services that take us almost no time to diddle up with a PERL script). After that, we'll charge rediculous amounts just to regurgitate your own data back to you and everyone else, but we have to get this thing rolling first so we can pay our Moms back for the machines and the frame relay line to our bedrooms. We'll even pretend to notify about new web pages we find on Yahoo's index while surfing on our new 384 f*ckin' megabit (cool! bet you don't have one of THOSE in your bedroom!) line late at night. Oh yeah, and we'll occasionally dredge up some free wire service articles from Eastern Europe (where they can't do sh*t about us legally) that match your profile in our flatfile database, but only if it doesn't take us too long, because we'll be cutting and pasting a lot. We'll dump an impressive enough pile of K's on your disk every day so it looks like you're actually getting something valuable in case any accountants at your office actually bother to check. Then, you can regurgitate all this crap back to your boss or your friends or whoever and it'll make you look really "computer savvy," because as you know, none of them really have a f*ckin' CLUE about any of this "computer" stuff anyway, right? Hell, you might even get a _promotion_ (but if you don't, don't come whining to _us_, 'cuz we'll be on the next plane to Bermuda with your money)! Don't be the last bozo on your block to pretend s/he's a super-cool "InfoNaut" by sucking data like a parasite from Bullsh*t! and spooing it out to your friends after you strip our headers off (hey, we don't give a damn, after all - turnabout _is_ fair play, right?). Archietext recently managed to bribe a big magazine - one that a bunch of Sales & Marketing Weasels with big honkin' expense accounts leave lying around open on their desks to impress their visitors - to give us a high-profile phoney-baloney award with an impressive-sounding name. We cut them in on the deal, see (but don't tell anyone!). Would you believe they actually arm-twisted one of their artists to texturemap our logo onto a geometric primitive way in the back of a recent cover image? It was rotated in perspective so you can hardly tell what it is, but what the hell - now we can use _their_ logos in _our_ promo stuff. Looks really good on our resumes too, in case this whole thing falls flat and we have to get a real job to pay our Moms back. If you need convincing that we can format HTML documents (hey, two of us _did_ get CS degrees!) check out our Web page at: http://www.assh*le.com/user/scam.html Bullsh*t! will be opening as soon as we can clean up our rooms and figure out how to hook these big-ass hard drives up to our new Suns (we figure by August 15 we can bamboozle enough fools to start it up convincingly) and we hope that we can soon start digitally ravaging your list(s) with our exciting scam. Listen: you won't feel a thing, we _promise_. By the time you realize you could get all this stuff for nothing by yourself if you just read a few manuals and readme's like we did, it'll be too late, but c'mon... it'll be fun! If you agree to sell us your list (and all the names on it, but let's not make too much of that until after you sign), please sneak us in as the user "list@assh*le.com" so none of your users notice us. Make sure we're set to CONCEAL and that we get everything in non-digest form so we don't spill a drop of your blood. Speaking of "drops," drop us a line telling us which list(s) you've subscribed us to, because we're too lazy to actually keep track of this stuff ourselves. Besides, we're busy reading this really cool Tony Robbins book and trying to work up the nerve to walk on hot coals next weekend. Thanks. Thanks for buying this line of crap like the sucker you really are, and... uh-oh, Mom's calling us down to dinner, so we'd better go now... Spiff Bung, Bullsh*t! Technical Guy (OK, so I _was_ an Art major, f*ck you anyway - YOU didn't think of this!) From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 16:30:59 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA21417 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:14:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA21376 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:14:51 -0700 Received: from uumail2.netcom.com(163.179.3.52) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021334; Tue Aug 1 16:14:15 1995 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id QAA17663; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 16:11:04 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA01587; Tue, 1 Aug 95 16:09:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 95 16:09:48 -0700 Message-Id: <9508012309.AA01587@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto wrote: >THEIR VERSION: > >>Architext is an exciting new media navigation company. [blather we have all seen omitted] >_MY VERSION_: [highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained sarcasm omitted] >Spiff Bung, >Bullsh*t! Technical Guy >(OK, so I _was_ an Art major, f*ck you anyway - YOU didn't think of this!) I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the Month Award. Lord knows how sick I am of "there's money in the Internet waiting for you" articles that keep showing up in the non-technical press. Thanks Dave. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 1 19:30:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA05719 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 19:03:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA05675 for ; Tue, 1 Aug 1995 19:03:45 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005665; Tue Aug 1 19:03:07 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sdT8F-000FPbC; Tue, 1 Aug 95 21:02 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 1 Aug 1995 21:02:03 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9508012309.AA01587@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Aug 1, 95 04:09:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 563 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman commented about Dave Del Torto's evaluation of Architext: | ... highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained | sarcasm ... Agreed! Good job, Dave. | I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the | Month Award. I second the nomination. David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 "When lutefisk is outlawed, only outlaws will have lutefisk." -- bumper sticker I saw on a Nova at Oakton and Keystone From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 2 07:00:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA06035 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:31:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA05986 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 06:31:17 -0700 Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005964; Wed Aug 2 06:30:56 1995 Date: Wed, 2 Aug 95 9:30:44 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "Archietext" (I've got some good news, and some bad news...) Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9508020930.aa19653@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin wrote: >Alan Deikman commented about Dave Del Torto's evaluation of Architext: > >| ... highly impressive, lengthy, and well written exercise in sustained >| sarcasm ... > >Agreed! Good job, Dave. > >| I think Dave has earned my nomination for Internet Wannabe Basher of the >| Month Award. > >I second the nomination. I'll third it, but only if he comes over and cleans up all the coffee I just spit all over my monitor and keyboard. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 2 16:30:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06104 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:27:13 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA06022 for ; Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:27:02 -0700 Received: from quadra.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.36) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006006; Wed Aug 2 16:26:15 1995 X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 16:25:36 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Architext (OK, maybe they're okay after all...) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI. -Brent --- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 17:05:02 -0400 From: bostic@bsdi.com (Keith Bostic) To: /dev/null@python.bostic.com Subject: Architext (OK, maybe they're okay after all...) From: Chris Small These people have a sense of humor. They offer a service that generates MarketingSpeak (TM) at the click of a button. See http://www.atext.com/cgi/aimarket. Examples: Using groundbreaking fuzzy logic techniques, Architext has built multimedia engines for enterprise engines. Architext is a corporate leader in offering parallel solutions in an enabling enterprise. Architext offers corporate agents for client-server suites in a mission-critical workplace. Architext is a world-wide expert in providing multimedia turnkey comprehensive products in a distributed enterprise for client-server architectures. Architext delivers interoperable solutions in an empowering environment for enabling technologies. Using revolutionary fractal compression methods and groundbreaking case-based reasoning protocols, Architext has designed intuitive architectures for online solutions. Using groundbreaking fractal compression techniques, Architext has developed turnkey distributed solutions for high-speed engines. Architext provides enterprise technologies for empowering products. Architext is an industry expert in developing productivity-enhancing agents in a multi-platform environment. --- end forwarded text -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 18:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA28122 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:31:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA28095 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:31:35 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028081; Thu Aug 3 17:30:49 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id RAA07055; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:24:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 17:24:15 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508040024.RAA07055@mas.atext.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: graham@atext.com Subject: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. My name is Graham Spencer, and I work at Architext software. I'd like to respond to some of the negative sentiment we've generated amongst list managers and others. This email is rather long, but I've tried to summarize the important points at the end. First: yes, we really screwed up with our mailing to list managers. I've explained this to a few of you in personal emails, but the basic problem is this: we accidentally sent out some mailings from the wrong account -- an anonymous account on a machine inside our firewall (list@cochese.atext.com) rather than the account of our engineer who's managing the project. This was an unfortunate mistake, but I want to stress that we weren't trying to "spam" anyone -- we sent mail to list administrators because we had a specific request for each of them. No doubt many of you will disagree, asserting that any mass-mailing is equivalent to spamming. However, the fact is that we were simply doing what we thought was polite, namely checking with list administrators before we subscribed to (and began archiving) mailing lists. Some of you explicitly state in your "Welcome to the list" messages that archiving is not permitted, and of course we won't archive those lists. It may not have occurred to others of you that anyone would want to archive your list, so we wanted to ask before we did it. In any event, let me reiterate that we were trying to be polite, and through user-error we really screwed things up and were perceived as being rude. We'll be much more careful in the future. Let me respond to a few specific comments: "Dave Del Torto" said, in an admittedly humorous satire: > convince a few hundred thousand hapless suckers to fork over a > few bucks apiece and send us their own list-content for free so > we can sell it back to them. I'm not sure why you think we're charging anyone (other than advertisers). But just to be explicit, our search service will be free to internet users, just like Yahoo and Lycos currently are. Like Yahoo and Lycos, we hope to make money from advertising. > thousands of editorial reviews that we think we can snatch and > grab without anyone much noticing The editorial that we're referring to is all original, written by our editorial staff exclusively for Bullseye. "Dave Del Torto" said, in a much earlier message: > [...] you can easily see the slippery effect that casually > entering into a fiduciary relationship with a company like > Architext represents: if they get enough "locks" on lists, they > could end up making even just posting cost you too. I don't understand why you believe that we're trying to get a "lock" on these lists. We're just trying to obtain permission to (non- exclusively) archive some of the content and make it available for searching. At the risk of being redundant, we have no intention of "locking" your list, owning your list, preventing other people from reading your list, charging people to post to your list, or charging people to search over your list. > If they offer it for free, or offer to share profits based on > individual compensation (something I fancy would cost them more > than it's worth to them) then that's a different scenario > entirely and I might participate. We do plan to offer it for free, and we hope that you'll agree to participate. > There are mechanisms already extant that let you search a > list-archive, beginning with keeping a list-archive on your own > disk like I do. Mine only takes up about 12 MB on my disk. No big > deal. There are many lists on the internet. Even experienced users may not know how to find a list that deals with a topic that interests them. And if they do find the list, their interest may be for the duration of a day rather than the weeks required to become acquainted with a mailing list. We want to index mailing lists so that 1) people won't have to know which list contains topics that interest them and 2) people won't have to keep 12MB archives of every list lying around on their hard drive. > (not just by pimping others). [...] and when well-meaning people > are sandbagged by silver-tongued carpetnetters and carelessly > hand over basic principles of authorship and free association for > a bottle of patent medicine - then something is very, very wrong > in Mudville. Frankly, I resent your accusation that we're "pimping others" and that we're "sandbagging" well-meaning internet users. *We* are well-meaning internet users. All we're trying to do is to create a navigation system that leads users to other content on the internet. Asserting that our navigation service will destroy "basic principles of authorship and free association" is simply absurd. "Gess Shankar" asked (almost a month ago): > It also that the content will be "freely searchable by any user > of the Internet". I am not sure what is meant by "freely". Is the > access to the text archive database is "free" as in no-cost or > does it mean something else? "Free" as in no-cost. Searching over the index and retrieving (the entire text of) any of the articles in the index will always be free. Eventually we plan to allow users to store persistent profiles which we will probably charge for, but we will never charge for searching or retrieval. "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" said: > Anyhow, I can't see how it hurts to let them do the archiving. Thanks! I agree completely. =) I apologize for the length of this email, but obviously we had a lot of explaining to do. Let me summarize: * We made a mistake with our mailing. We apologize. * Despite our obvious error, we are a responsible company. Also, we aren't "sharks" -- our intention is not to exploit the internet, but rather to add value to it. * We plan to offer our navigation service for free -- users will never have to pay to search for articles, or to retrieve the entire content of articles. (We may charge for persistent profiles in the future.) Please contact me if you have further questions. (In case anyone is curious, I recently subscribed to the list-managers list.) I hope that despite our recent mistake, you'll consider allowing us to archive and index the contents of your mailing lists. Thanks for your time, --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 19:30:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA29508 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:02:38 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA29497 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:02:35 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029491; Thu Aug 3 19:01:40 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id SAA24991; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 18:55:50 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024989; Thu Aug 3 18:55:44 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seC2I-000FRIC; Thu, 3 Aug 95 20:58 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: graham@atext.com (Graham Spencer) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:58:54 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508040024.RAA07055@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 3, 95 05:24:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1718 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer of Architext wrote, | First: yes, we really screwed up with our mailing to list managers. | I've explained this to a few of you in personal emails, but the basic | problem is this: we accidentally sent out some mailings from the wrong | account -- an anonymous account on a machine inside our firewall | (list@cochese.atext.com) rather than the account of our engineer who's | managing the project. Both my lists got a letter with the subject "Apology from Architext" but it, too, came from the "lists" ID. It was signed with the name Jeff Young, but Young's .sig as well as his headers used the "lists" ID again. So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from lists@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write from it and even typed it into the .signa- ture; that sounds pretty much like a decision to me. Wearing swim trunks to church is a mistake, not an accident. | In any event, let me reiterate that we were trying to be polite, and | through user-error we really screwed things up and were perceived as | being rude. We'll be much more careful in the future. I was rough on Young in my response to the first one but a little gentler for that reason when I turned them down from my other list. They do deserve some points for stating their goals and asking first. Most people in their posi- tion just grunt a "subscribe" command [which I always turn down] to try to slither onto a list without prior contact to make arrangements and without saying who is behind "mlists" or "lists". David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 20:05:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00596 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:39:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00550 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:39:36 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000538; Thu Aug 3 19:39:25 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA08603; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:32:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 19:32:48 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508040232.TAA08603@mas.atext.com> To: dattier@wwa.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: (dattier@wwa.com) Subject: Re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) said: > So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from > lists@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), > but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write > from it and even typed it into the .signature; that sounds pretty > much like a decision to me. Please note that even though we sent the apologetic mail from the wrong host, we did include a valid email address (list@atext.com, *not* list@cochese.atext.com) in that apology. (In fact, we mentioned list@atext.com three times, and never mentioned list@cochese.atext.com in the body of the message.) Jeff simply didn't realize that sending from cochese.atext.com was the source of the problem, so he repeated the mistake in his second mailing. It was definitely *not* a decision... To paraphrase Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by a lack of knowledge". --Graham PS: "cochese" is named after a fictional character; the spelling is deliberate (unlike our mailing from list@cochese.atext.com). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 3 20:30:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA02992 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:16:46 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA02970 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 1995 20:16:42 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002958; Thu Aug 3 20:15:57 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seDDf-000FRIC; Thu, 3 Aug 95 22:14 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: graham@atext.com (Graham Spencer) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 22:14:43 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508040232.TAA08603@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 3, 95 07:32:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2197 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had written, | > So, Mr. Spencer, maybe it was a bad decision to write from | > list@cochese.atext.com (just as it was to misspell "Cochise"), | > but it didn't happen by accident. Your company continued to write | > from it and even typed it into the .signature; that sounds pretty | > much like a decision to me. Graham Spencer responded, | Please note that even though we sent the apologetic mail from the | wrong host, we did include a valid email address (list@atext.com, | *not* list@cochese.atext.com) in that apology. (In fact, we mentioned | list@atext.com three times, ... and Jeff Young's or any other real person's address zero times ... | and never mentioned list@cochese.atext.com | in the body of the message.) Jeff simply didn't realize that sending | from cochese.atext.com was the source of the problem, so he repeated | the mistake in his second mailing. We've a misunderstanding here, Mr. Spencer. There are two very separable issues: the host in the return address and the only username supplied for responses. I thought that your earlier apology was for the latter; you've now explained that it was for the former. You appear to stand by the latter. What I said the first time referred to Mr. Young's withholding any contact information other than the "list" address: that part was a decision, not an accident. The .signature address was list@atext.com and not list@cochese.atext.com, but it still was list@. | It was definitely *not* a decision... Including "cochese" may have been fortuity, but using "list" was design, and so was omitting any address that reaches a person instead of a daemon. | To paraphrase Hanlon's razor: "never attribute to malice what can | adequately be explained by a lack of knowledge". Right; I said that it was a *bad* decision, not that it was a *mean* one. | PS: "cochese" is named after a fictional character; the spelling is | deliberate (unlike our mailing from list@cochese.atext.com). Let me guess: this fictional character admired Cochise but couldn't spell? David W. Tamkin Box 3284 Skokie, Illinois 60076-6284 dattier@wwa.com MCI Mail: 426-1818 +1 312 714 5610 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 14:03:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09051 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:53:13 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA09035 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:53:10 -0700 Received: from spsgate.sps.mot.com(192.70.231.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009030; Fri Aug 4 13:52:29 1995 Received: from mogate (mogate.sps.mot.com) by spsgate.sps.mot.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email 2.1 10/25/93) id AA28295 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:51:12 MST Received: from azcc.sps.mot.com ([222.90.5.1]) by mogate (4.1/SMI-4.1/Email-2.0) id AA04485; Fri, 4 Aug 95 13:51:06 MST Received: from hermes3.sps.mot.com by azcc.sps.mot.com with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA13232; Fri, 4 Aug 95 15:48:01 -0500 Received: by hermes3 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA20788; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:50:53 -0700 From: kirmis@hermes3.sps.mot.com (Deirdre Kirmis) Message-Id: <9508042050.AA20788@hermes3> Subject: Digested Lists To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 13:50:53 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to create a digested version of a list in my Majordomo list server. Haven't been able to find any good documentation on how to successfully configure it. My list homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/lists. My archives homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/archives. My digest homedir is /fs/hermes3/majordomo/digests. How do I get a digested list to be sent out daily to the list members? ssilist is the list that the users subscribe/send to. ssilist-digest is the list where all the messages are digested (i think). When people send to the list, I would like the list to store the messages and send them out at the end of the day. Do I need two separate lists to accomplish this? If there is only one subscriber to ssilist (ie: the owner of the list) and everyone else is subscribed to ssilist-digest, would all messages sent to ssilist be digested into ssilist-digest based upon my example aliases file below? If that is the case, then how do I get the ssilist-digest to send the messages out only once per day? Can you please give me an example of a crontab entry (if it uses cron)? Is there any good documentation on digests (Majordomo digests for dummies)? Here is an example of my current aliases file: ######################################################################## # SSILIST List: SSILIST Distribution List # Creater/Maintainer: Deirdre Kirmis # Creation Date: 07/17/1995 # ssilist:"|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper resend -l ssilist -h hermes3.sps.mot.com ssilist-outgoing" ssilist-digest:ssilist ssilist-outgoing::include:/fs/hermes3/majordomo/lists/ssilist,"|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l ssilist-digest ssilist-digest-outgoing","|/fs/hermes3/majordomo/wrapper archive2.pl -f /fs/hermes3/majordomo/archives/ssilist/ssilist.archive -a -m" ssilist-digest-outgoing:owner-ssilist ssilist-digest-approval:ssilist-owner #owner-ssilist: Larry_McCarthy-LLM001@email owner-ssilist: kirmis@hermes3 ssilist-owner: owner-ssilist ssilist-approval: owner-ssilist ######################################################################## This is my Majordomo.cf file: ######################################################################## # $whereami -- What machine am I running on? $whereami = "hermes3.sps.mot.com"; # $whoami -- Who do users send requests to me as? $whoami = "listbot@$whereami"; # $whoami_owner -- Who is the owner of the above, in case of problems? $whoami_owner = "listbot-owner@$whereami"; # $homedir -- Where can I find my extra .pl files, like majordomo.pl? # the environment variable HOME is set by the wrapper if ( defined $ENV{"HOME"}) { $homedir = $ENV{"HOME"}; } else { $homedir = "/fs/hermes3/majordomo"; } # $listdir -- Where are the mailing lists? $listdir = "$homedir/lists"; # $digest_work_dir -- the parent directory for digest's queue area # Each list must have a subdirectory under this directory in order for # digest to work. E.G. The bblisa list would use: # /usr/local/mail/digest/bblisa # as its directory. $digest_work_dir = "$homedir/digests"; # $log -- Where do I write my log? $log = "$homedir/majordomo.log"; # $mailer -- What program and args do I use to send mail? # The variable $to can be interpolated into this command line, # however the $to variable is provided by the person sending mail, # and much mischief can be had by playing with this variable. # Use $to with care. $mailer = "/usr/lib/sendmail -f\$sender -t"; # Majordomo will look for "get" and "index" files related to $list in # directory "$filedir/$list$filedir_suffix", so set $filedir and # $filedir_suffix appropriately. For instance, to look in # /usr/local/mail/files/$list, use: # $filedir = "/usr/local/mail/files"; # $filedir_suffix = ""; # empty string # or to look in $listdir/$list.archive, use: # $filedir = "$listdir"; # $filedir_suffix = ".archive"; $filedir = "$homedir/archives"; $filedir_suffix = ".archive"; # What command should I use to process an "index" request? $index_command = "/bin/ls -lRL"; # If you want to use FTPMAIL, rather than local access, for file transfer # and access, define the following: # $ftpmail_address = "ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com"; # $ftpmail_location = "FTP.$whereami"; # if you want the subject of the request to be included as part of the # subject of the reply (useful when automatically testing, or submitting # multiple command sets), set $return_subject to 1. $return_subject = 1; # If you are using majordomo at the -request address, set the # following variable to 1. This affects the welcome message that is # sent to a new subscriber as well as the help text that is generated. $majordomo_request = 0; # Set the umask for the process. Used to set default file status for # config file. umask(007); # the safe locations for archive directories. This should be defined as # a series of root anchored directory paths as will be used as prefixes # to the file names specified to the archive2.pl script. @archive_dirs = ( "$homedir/archives/test", "$homedir/archives/ssilist" ); # Set this to 1 if you want to use the experimental mechanism for allowing # / in user names. People with lots of X.400 addresses on their lists or # HP mail whatever may want to set this. However use it at your own risk. $analyze_slash_in_address = 0; # # these tune the experimental matching that is done for addresses with / in # them. If you haven't turned on the experimental analyze_slash_in_address # they are ignored. See the source for full explanation of these variables. # # if set to 1 ignore the requirement that addresses have an @ sign in the # address component after the last /. $no_x400at=0; # if set to 1 do not look for "/c=" and "/ad=" or "/am=" in the address. # X.400 seems to require these components. $no_true_x400=0; 1; Thanks for any information anyone can give me. Deirdre Kirmis # $Header: /sources/cvsrepos/majordomo/sample.cf,v 1.4.2.1.2.2 1995/01/07 17:35:03 rouilj Exp $ From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 16:00:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA15524 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:30:10 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA15431 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 15:29:57 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015416; Fri Aug 4 15:29:20 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00943 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:05 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA17330; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:09 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16773; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 16:28:30 -0600 Message-Id: <9508042228.AA16773@lws489.salttn> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digested Lists From: "Franklin R. Jones" Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 16:28:30 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk =>I am trying to create a digested version of a list in my Majordomo =>list server. Haven't been able to find any good documentation on =>how to successfully configure it. Yeah, the docs are a bit thin... =>Do I need two separate lists to accomplish this? yes, sort of more line 2.5. the following is the full aliases for a digested list: in this case `fjtest' #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# aliases for list fjtest #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# fjtest: |//wrapper resend -l fjtest -h fjtest-outgoing owner-fjtest: majordomo-owner fjtest-request: "|//wrapper request-answer fjtest fjtest-approval: majordomo-owner fjtest-digest: fjtest fjtest-outgoing: :include://lists/fjtest, "| //wrapper digest -r -C -l fjtest-digest fjtest-digest-outgoing", fjtest-digest-outgoing: :include:/lists/fjtest-digest owner-fjtest-outgoing: owner-fjtest owner-fjtest-digest: owner-fjtest owner-fjtest-digest-outgoing: owner-fjtest fjtest-digest-request: "|/wrapper request-anwser fjtest-digest" fjtest-digest-approval: fjtest-approval fjtest-request: "|/wrapper majordomo -l fjtest" #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# end of aliases for list fjtest #*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# the key is the resend to -outgoing which in turn calls wrapper to run digest. the digest itself is sent by cron with a simple email to the listserver such as : 0 17 * * * echo "mkdigest fjtest-digest " | mail majordomo@ I've replaced the paths I use with and my domain name with so if you replace those with your site specfic stuff and fjtest with your list name you'll be close. minimum files needed are: fjtest fjtest-digest fjtest-digest.info fjtest-digest.passwd fjtest.info fjtest.passwd hope this helps some if you have specfic questions, give them a go. fj.. '~`^`'-,._.,-'~|,._.,-'~^~`~'-,._.,-'~`~'-,._.,-'~`~'-,._.,-,._.,-'~`~'-,._ Franklin R. Jones Unix OS & Network Specialist Paranet, Inc. consultant to: USWest Service Assurance 7900 E. Union Ave,Suite 1100 frjones@sa.mnet.uswest.com Denver, Colorado 80237 From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 19:30:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA25303 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:06:05 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA25268 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 19:06:00 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com(192.20.239.134) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025252; Fri Aug 4 19:05:11 1995 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA16416; Fri, 4 Aug 95 19:15:57 EDT Message-Id: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 4 Aug 1995 18:26 EDT Subject: re: Architext In-Reply-To: <199508042104.OAA09325@miles.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto says: >THEIR VERSION: ... >_MY VERSION_: ... [Lots of reactionary bashing deleted (I could have found it funnier if weren't so mean-spirited).] If someone is archiving my list (something I don't have the disk space for myself), and is willing to do it for free and provide free search and indexing services, that's a benefit as far as I'm concerned. Even if they wanted to charge users for their services, that would probably be OK with me (although I would then want to understand the copyright implications); presumably, if someone is willing to pay for it, it's a favourable cost/benefit ratio for that person. Information flows sufficiently freely on the Internet, including information about information providers, that no one would survive very long trying to charge prices that were out of line with what's available free or at a much more nominal cost. It's absurd to cook up conspiracy theories that this person wants to monopolize a certain segment of otherwise-public information on the Internet! Having said this, though, I yet *did* have a problem with Architext's request, and did not add them to my lists, largely because they simply did not seem to have their act together. To wit: 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! My questions to them asking for clarification on some things (some of which Graham Spencer subsequently answered in his message to this list) was going to be completely buried in Gigabytes of list message ALL going to that same address! Perhaps their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being run by amateurs! 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that might have reassured me. 3. The misdirected e-mail didn't help establish credibility. 4. The excessive marketing hype was clearly the work of people unfamiliar with the Internet, otherwise they would have known that this sort of copy is treated pretty contemptuously on the Internet (they know now). So they need to establish credibility (which is a little like trying to re-establish virginity ...) and also anticipate and address the problems and questions that listowners might have with their proposal/request. They *were* courteous enough to ask list-owners' permission--my lists are open subscription and they could easily have subscribed themselves--which is a plus point in their favour. If they succeed in living up to providing the services they are claiming, it would be a nice service for some listowners. Shahrukh Merchant From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 21:00:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA29714 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:39:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA29684 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 20:39:19 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029677; Fri Aug 4 20:38:52 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:42 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:38 +0200 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 05:37:38 +0200 Message-Id: <199508050337.7002.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> (merchant@anuxv.att.com) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Shahrukh Merchant] | 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! [...] Perhaps | their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all | out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being | run by amateurs! Sorting by the To/Cc headers isn't exactly rocket science. Of course, some terribly broken lists use the individual recipient's address in the To-header, and I suspect Architext must unsubscribe to these and some other strange systems. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 21:30:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01606 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:15:22 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01535 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:15:12 -0700 Received: from netcom12.netcom.com(192.100.81.124) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001511; Fri Aug 4 21:14:36 1995 Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id VAA13576; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:11:24 -0700 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-Floppyright: (c)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:13:25 -0700 To: Graham Spencer From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:24 pm 8/3/95, Graham Spencer wrote: >Let me respond to a few specific comments: >"Dave Del Torto" said, in an admittedly humorous satire: Jeeze, it's gettin' so ya can't even _satirize_ folks these days without them becoming upset. ") Anyway, I'm truly glad you saw some jocularity in it, because it was meant mostly in fun. It speaks well of you that you have such an advanced sense of humor (and, I might add, of your Mom, who is/was undoubtedly a Lady of great couth, judging by your civil tone). Remember: it _was_ satire. Really. I merely deliberately exaggerated various features of your chap's post to produce a (grotesque) comic effect: I'm not trying to irrationally pick on you guys specifically. Well, not much. Actually, I'm more against the _idea_ of what you and other services like yours represent. I wrote in an earlier post about the similarity I see between what you're doing and what West Publications does by indexing the text of all legal procedings in the US and then claiming the right to sell it all back to the citizens. In other words, I have philosophical objections to your purpose. There are significant differences, since your materials are available on the net, but you and I both know that once mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, so someday, you will have people by the short and curlies if they want historical data. So, call me an irascible carbunc-er-curmudgeon if you will, but I'm just too disestablishmentarian to properly appreciate your service right now. If it turns out I'm wrong, I _promise_ I'll happily admit it, but I've been in this industry 15 years now, and that's long enough to believe that there's a glimmer of truth to my satire. Personally, I'd prefer it if you spent your time cooking up a way for everyone on the net to build widely-disseminated infobases, rather than attempting to control a centralized repository "service." I believe in things like the Web that support decentralized information connected by hyperlinks. That, imho, along with organic memory and optical computers is the Net of the Future. Hey, maybe you *do* have a nifty idea. Maybe lots of people *will* sign up. Maybe it *will* be free. Maybe higher primates *will* achieve flight and rocket from my colon - who knows? And maybe someday, after it becomes clear to me just where the flaws in your arguments are that allow you to provide this service for "free," you'll finally come clean about just what it is that you're trying to do and I'll be so impressed by your candor that I'll interested in checking it out. For now, however, consider any list I manage to be off-limits to your indices and archives as explicitly stated in their Welcome messages. dave ________________________________________________________________________ "Arguing with an engineer is like mud-wrestling with a pig. After a while, you figure out that the pig likes it." - Michael Sattler From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 22:00:50 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02240 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:40:17 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02225 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 21:40:14 -0700 Received: from mailgate.trader.com(204.120.67.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002221; Fri Aug 4 21:39:59 1995 Subject: Needed: list server From: WILLIAM MILLER To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-Id: <0089252.034915.9978.0001@trader.com> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 1995 23:56:52 X-Mailer: TCON-SmtpToss [v1.1.0] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a list of hundreds of subscribers who have expressed interest in my mailing list (distribution list) pertaining to collectors and collectibles. I am interested in getting a site to run my list with their listserver, etc. I would like suggestions regarding no- or low-cost sites which might carry my list. Thanks. Private replies preferred, but I have recently subscribed. Thanks very much. eagle@trader.com William (Ed) Miller, ASEET Clayton, IN USA --------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Constitution : Void Where Prohibited By Law From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 4 23:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA05243 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:16:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA05235 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 23:16:49 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005232; Fri Aug 4 23:16:27 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA05285 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Sat, 5 Aug 1995 01:03:26 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA12044; 5 Aug 95 00:36:52 CDT (Sat) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id AAA12041 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:52 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199508050536.AAA12041@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:51 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1069 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The eloquent Dave Del Torto writes: > but you and I both know that once > mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless > the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, Like me? I have close to 4 years of my mailing list archived, don't know how much it is currently but it was over 20 megabytes worth last time I looked. Being that it's tucked away in an obscure corner of the Web, it's not widely accessible, but it's there if someone happens to stumble over it. But it's something on the back of my mind, what if someone finds it and the other stuff I have and snarf it all for their own purposes? It's true that enough people have tried to make money off the PAML so I know it's a possibility. But what about Archietext? What if I say yeah, archive my list but then change my mind later and ask them to remove it. Would they? Or is there some agreement that once they have it, it's theirs forever? Or are they even organized enough to identify my list traffic to where they could find it and delete it off their system? From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 03:00:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA09180 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:37:56 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA09159 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:37:50 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009125; Sat Aug 5 02:37:42 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA12698; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:31:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:31:07 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508050931.CAA12698@mas.atext.com> To: arielle@bonkers.taronga.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199508050536.AAA12041@bonkers.taronga.com> (message from Stephanie da Silva on Sat, 5 Aug 1995 00:36:51 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: Jughead Replies (Was: Re: Architext) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Stephanie da Silva asked: > What if I say yeah, archive my list but then change my mind later > and ask them to remove it. Would they? Or is there some agreement > that once they have it, it's theirs forever? Yes, we will delete your list from our archives upon request. We don't expect to have any permanent rights to archiving it. > Or are they even organized enough to identify my list traffic to > where they could find it and delete it off their system? All the mail we receive is sorted by source; it would be simple for us to delete all the articles from a particular list. I've added this question and answer to the info page at http://www.atext.com/archiving-lists.html. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 03:03:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA08757 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:30:42 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA08725 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:30:34 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008711; Sat Aug 5 02:29:37 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA12638; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:23:00 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 02:23:00 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> To: merchant@anuxv.att.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: graham@atext.com In-reply-to: <9508042315.AA16416@ig1.att.att.com> (merchant@anuxv.att.com) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) said: > 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as Kjetil Torgrim Homme suggested in a later message, we do have software set up to sort email by sender. List content is diverted to individual archives, and non-list content is inspected separately by a human. So your email was most likely received as expected. > 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that > might have reassured me. I believe our delay in responding was more due to the bulk of mail from list administrators rather than from the lists themselves. > 4. The excessive marketing hype was clearly the work of people > unfamiliar with the Internet, otherwise they would have known > that this sort of copy is treated pretty contemptuously on the > Internet (they know now). This was another unfortunate aspect of our mailing; the letter was obviously written with the wrong tone for this audience. FWIW -- and this may not do much to re-establish credibility, but I'll mention it anyway -- most of us at Architext have been on the net for five or six years. > So they need to establish credibility (which is a little like > trying to re-establish virginity ...) and also anticipate and > address the problems and questions that listowners might have > with their proposal/request. To that end, I'm happy to continue answering questions in this forum, or via private email. I've also created a web page, http://www.atext.com/archiving-lists.html which tries to answer some of the questions I've already received. I can mail this page to anyone who doesn't have web access. I'd like to do whatever I can to make sure that from now on we're perceived as competent and responsible. (Which we really are.) --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 12:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA19007 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:25:14 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA18978 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 12:25:09 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018972; Sat Aug 5 12:24:58 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id PAA10816 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:23:50 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id PAA08316; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:14:34 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:44:03 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: graham@atext.com Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer writes: > > merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) said: > > > 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! > > Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified > a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as Well, you guys still seem to be at it, expecting responses to hosts which cannot be accessed at your site. A recent example at an attempt to get subscription information from one of my lists....When the server sent the information blurb, guess what? Received: from toast.eushc.org (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP id DAA10713; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 03:33:38 -0400 ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: No route to host ------------------------------------------------------------------- GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 15:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23099 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:39:42 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23075 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:39:38 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023065; Sat Aug 5 14:38:55 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id RAA48111 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 17:37:45 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id PAA08316; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:14:34 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:44:03 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: graham@atext.com Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk \9MN'KEJU.IT[)^+9X#W_9C&3?O(&=^!87V-YA3OX;_XX[1LZ<'2SJ-\-=<7 M+[MY92.-*]5UO@YS;_`I_6RP#>,L]HWCAK\5C^"[XJ#,RY76]7^N+&)&HO#?$$W^[OK[S[JV_T MKK/%&V?F\N'<,7/%T,L^*>C:<3'W8V$C`CPK`7S69+7,[*LC"#YGL25E@JO. M@_Y\F]UGFI0LI9C.GN72\P"@;Y#+ISR`YC9SN\6SE)>K@I*GC%/F**\I_U3" MU28$E^/5V>I+ZCG*0NW4&FG-`"1;:[VT/@"2H[6EVA[MLO:U=D_3=9\^7)\% M,#E7+Z1,J\7FQJY6B]M2Q_(,@.0^RT<`DY]93EN883.B#9_1$,!R/4#E-N., M<<',L'H?L*:\M8ZUN[67=0#HR<.L'UD_LR;;VMDVV]ZU';)=L'UEL]J]]GA[ M"D&FTHP/`Y0;'BXZ703,^1+L1?.OXWJ'1>N7^ M`)I/.;VN$%>H*Y:RKM9W-77U)4?]:-=.REU]S76+%E,ZW%$`F=L`++]VWW=K M'MWC,B,P,1]?HIG)V@^`.<6S"B!39.$S`###O!6\#;R#`3A15R[T/DL^E2,P MF%5*XS$C?`":?RJ'0%6+?'I)8H.H/C]&?;4>=$8+4=AGE=^[OJ;OL:I@1=OY M)6Y?_PDE;P.-9NV8:SUO3BK*A`?Q/#JS3T(41CU]=W%-I]Y1!W[\<%MQRM,_ MOKU^`"Y.P@-`'L9FO3HFDG)SU5 MW)$/N+LMFD_?)F45ZVH1UIQQV-)?(1(Y!XZJR@6B]49 M]4.[K*2\P44[\HNV%;3 From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 15:02:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22939 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:35:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22917 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 14:35:35 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022911; Sat Aug 5 14:35:31 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0seqrQ-000FGZC; Sat, 5 Aug 95 16:34 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Architext To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 16:34:24 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199508050923.CAA12638@mas.atext.com> from "Graham Spencer" at Aug 5, 95 02:23:00 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1125 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer still tries valiantly to answer his company's critics, including Shahrukh Merchant, who had written, | > 2. I did not get a reply to my query (undoubtedly because of 1) that | > might have reassured me. And Spencer replied, | I believe our delay in responding was more due to the bulk of mail | from list administrators rather than from the lists themselves. I believe that the delay may be forever, because both of Jeff Young's mailings, as we discussed before, bore the unrepliable return address "list@cochese.atext.com" in their headers, and the reader would have had to know -- as Spencer told us later -- to change it to "list@atext.com" as given in the text of Young's letters. If only Jeff Young understood about Reply-To: headers. I received Young's second version at both my lists and replied from each. One has already bounced; one still has the transports plugging away. My decision has been not to bother writing again though I now know the working site name. Besides, who wants to send text that needs to be read by human eyes to something called "List Boy" instead of a person? From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 5 16:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA25617 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:42:29 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA25600 for ; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:42:26 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025596; Sat Aug 5 15:41:43 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id PAA16024; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:34:35 -0700 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 15:34:35 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508052234.PAA16024@mas.atext.com> To: gess@knex.mind.org CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, graham@atext.com In-reply-to: (message from Gess Shankar on Sat, 05 Aug 95 13:39:09 EST) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar said: > Well, you guys still seem to be at it, expecting responses to > hosts which cannot be accessed at your site. A recent example at > an attempt to get subscription information from one of my > lists....When the server sent the information blurb, guess what? No, we stopped all of our mailings as soon as we started to see problems. We haven't mailed anything to any list managers in several days. > Received: from toast.eushc.org (toast.eushc.org [163.246.96.100]) > by sunshine.eushc.org (8.6.10/EUSHC) with ESMTP > id DAA10713; Sat, 5 Aug 1995 03:33:38 -0400 > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > (unrecoverable error) > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > ... Deferred: No route to host My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal, but is it possible that this message was waiting in the queue for a few days, trying to find a route, until sendmail gave up and notified you? I guess the other possibility is that our internal machine queued the request for later delivery, and just recently mailed it to you. In any event, I assure you that we haven't sent out any new messages after our batch of "Apology from Architext" emails. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 00:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA08105 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 00:22:10 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA08097 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 00:22:08 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008093; Sun Aug 6 00:21:42 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.10.101]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id DAA23254 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 03:20:19 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id DAA14446; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 03:20:09 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 05 Aug 95 23:22:24 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: Architext From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 05 Aug 95 23:21:08 EST In-Reply-To: Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gess Shankar writes: > \9MN'KEJU.IT[)^+9X# MZ_Z4_.-CI]SYL'('J!M?E//EK[[#Y,+#9I.O[1D2.)/A]N<&/P`:IT*ZPO1# > MI"N<>W_9C&3?O(&=^!87V-YA3OX;_XX[1LZ<'2SJ-\-=<7 > M+[MY92<>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 12:12:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA14077 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:51:45 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA13738 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:50:58 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sman12397; Sun Aug 6 11:49:21 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id JAA10184; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 09:03:09 -0700 Received: from disperse.demon.co.uk(158.152.1.77) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010182; Sun Aug 6 09:02:47 1995 Received: from post.demon.co.uk by disperse.demon.co.uk id aa08964; 6 Aug 95 16:11 +0100 Received: from drink.demon.co.uk by post.demon.co.uk id aa24813; 6 Aug 95 16:08 +0100 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 15:41:50 GMT From: John Hein Reply-To: johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk Message-Id: <37970@drink.demon.co.uk> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Smoflist X-Mailer: PCElm 1.11 Lines: 10 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there anybody else on here using this software? -- [ John Hein GM1YME | ] [ johndunedin@drink.demon.co.uk | Phaggots do it on the phone! ] [ johndunedin@cix.compulink.co.uk| Sine Pretio Loquimini Omnibus ] [ Telephone: +44 131 558 1279 | ] [ TeleFax: +44 131 558 1262 | 38 B5/6 f+ t- w+ d g++ k- s++! r-- p ] [ Lambda BBS: +44 131 556 6316 | S8/9 b g- l y- z/ n o++ x-- a+ u- v- j++ ] From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 12:14:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA16673 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 12:03:04 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA15478 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 11:56:45 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaod2397; Sun Aug 6 11:55:19 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id EAA07866; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 04:11:54 -0700 Received: from cuci.ixe.net(205.244.45.192) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma007864; Sun Aug 6 04:11:25 1995 Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.6.12/BuGless_1.00) id NAA15572; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 13:02:47 +0200 Message-Id: <199508061102.NAA15572@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 13:02:47 +0200 In-Reply-To: Graham Spencer's message as of 1995 Aug 5 Sat 15:34. <199508052234.PAA16024@mas.atext.com> To: Graham Spencer Subject: re: Architext Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Graham Spencer wrote: > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > > ... Deferred: No route to host >My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal, but is it It's nice to be so honest; but wouldn't you say that having more than minimal knowledge about sendmail would be a first requirement for any firm that wants to subscribe to and archive thousands of mailinglists? Or are there other people at architext that are experts at sendmail and mailinglist manager software? -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Time is nature's way of making sure everything doesn't happen at once. From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 6 18:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28417 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:19:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28401 for ; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 18:19:20 -0700 Received: from mas.atext.com(204.62.245.24) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028397; Sun Aug 6 18:19:05 1995 Received: (from foopee@localhost) by mas.atext.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA24542; Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:48:45 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 1995 16:48:45 -0700 From: Graham Spencer Message-Id: <199508062348.QAA24542@mas.atext.com> To: srb@cuci.nl CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199508061102.NAA15572@hera.cuci.nl> (srb@cuci.nl) Subject: re: Architext Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I wrote: > My knowledge of the internals of sendmail is minimal [...] to which srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) replied: > [...] but wouldn't you say that having more than minimal > knowledge about sendmail would be a first requirement for any > firm that wants to subscribe to and archive thousands of > mailinglists? > Or are there other people at architext that are experts at > sendmail and mailinglist manager software? Yes, we have others at Architext who have much more experience dealing with sendmail and other sysadmin sorts of things. And the underlying reason for our recent troubles was a lack of sufficent communication between Jeff Young and our sysadmins, a mistake which we plan to avoid in the future. --Graham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graham Spencer Phone: 415.934.3613 graham@atext.com Fax: 415.934.3610 Architext Software Mail: 2700 Garcia, Mountain View 94043 From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 09:30:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA19850 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:04:16 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA19834; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:04:12 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019830; Mon Aug 7 09:03:38 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26895; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:24 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06421; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:24 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19206; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 10:02:47 -0600 Message-Id: <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 06 Aug 1995 16:48:45 PDT." <199508062348.QAA24542@mas.atext.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 -0600 From: "Franklin R. Jones" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello all, Anyone out there coupled a majordomo list to a local newsgroup? e.g. anything posted to the list appears in the news group and anything posted to the newsgroup is reflected to the majordomo list without dup'ing back to the newsgroup. I have ideas on how this can be done, but I assume someone must have tackled this before. any input? fyi: newsfeed is inn, majordomo 1.93, perl 4.036, Solaris 2.4 this was cross posted to both list-managers & majoromo-users. thanks, fj.. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 10:00:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20918 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:51:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20888; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:51:20 -0700 Received: from smuggler.bbn.com(128.89.7.132) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020881; Mon Aug 7 09:51:15 1995 Received: from smuggler.bbn.com (LOCALHOST.BBN.COM [127.0.0.1]) by smuggler.bbn.com (8.6.9/8.6.6) with ESMTP id MAA03047; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:49:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071649.MAA03047@smuggler.bbn.com> To: "Franklin R. Jones" cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 MDT." <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:49:26 -0400 From: "John C. Orthoefer" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Anyone out there coupled a majordomo list to a local > newsgroup? This has nothing to do with majordomo. Look for a package called newsgate. It implements the bidirectional feed news <-> mail. johno - John Orthoefer | Take this out and a Unix Demon will dog your steps from | now until the time_t's wrap around. 617-873-6188 | -- Curse from the tunefs(8) man page source From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 10:02:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20998 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:53:26 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA20967; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 09:53:20 -0700 Received: from europe.std.com(192.74.137.10) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020961; Mon Aug 7 09:52:58 1995 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA01965; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00610; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199508071651.AA00610@world.std.com> To: "Franklin R. Jones" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 10:02:47 EDT." <9508071602.AA19206@lws489.salttn> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:51:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth Lear Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: "Franklin R. Jones" >newsgroup? > > e.g. anything posted to the list appears in the news group and >anything posted to the newsgroup is reflected to the majordomo list >without dup'ing back to the newsgroup. Here's what I do for this. This is a repeat of my posting here on 1 June 95. ...eliz To explain how this is set up, I'll use my gateway of rec.arts.theatre.musicals as an example. I offer a straight bounce list and a digest version of the newsgroup to email subscribers. All messages to the newsgroup are automatically sent to the mailing list. In order to keep things from looping, submissions to the list aren't sent to the list, they are posted to the newsgroup and then find their way to the list. The /etc/aliases entry: # musicals: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper resend -l musicals -h world.std.com musicals-outgoing" musicals-outgoing: :include: /usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/musicals, "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper digest -r -C -l musicals-digest musicals-digest-outgoing" owner-musicals: eliz musicals-request: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l musicals" musicals-approval: eliz # musicals-digest: musicals-post musicals-digest-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/lib/majordomo/Lists/musicals-digest musicals-digest-request: "|/usr/local/lib/majordomo/wrapper majordomo -l musicals-digest" musicals-digest-approval: eliz owner-musicals-digest: eliz owner-musicals-digest-request: eliz # musicals-post: "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news rec.arts.theatre.musicals world" # The /usr/lib/news/sys entry: musicals:rec.arts.theatre.musicals/all,!local,!wstd::/bin/mail musicals@world.std.com The config file sets the list to use 'musicals-post@world.std.com' as the Reply-To address so replies go to the newsgroup. The program "news2mail": #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Gateway a local news group back to a mailing list # Written by Spike (spike@world.std.com) # add "local.group.name local-mail-alias" to /usr/lib/news/moderators # add then add something like to /etc/aliases: # local-mail-alias: # "|/usr/local/lib/news/news2mail list-address@somehost" $list = shift; if ($list eq "-") { open(MAIL,"|/bin/cat -u"); } else { open(MAIL,"|/usr/lib/sendmail $list"); } while (<>) { next if (/^From /); last unless (/^[^ \t]*:/ || (/^[ \t]/ && $. > 1)); if (/^Newsgroups: /i || /^Distribution: /i || /Apparently-To: /i || /^Received: /i) { $killed_last = 1; next; } next if (/^\s+/ && $killed_last); $killed_last = 0; print MAIL $_; } print MAIL "To: $list\n"; print MAIL "\n" if /\S+$/; print MAIL $_; while (<>) { print MAIL $_ ; } [end] I also have another setup that gateways a primary mailing list to a newsgroup for easier reading. The newsgroup is marked as moderated, and the moderator's address is given as the post-to-the-list address for the mailing list. This makes it work in reverse of the musicals list above - the musicals list gets its postings from the group, and messages from the members are sent to the newsgroup and then back to the list. The reverse gets all the newsgroup postings from the mailing list only, and any postings to the newsgroup are sent to the list and posted from there to the newsgroup as if the moderator had approved them. In order to do this, the newsgroup posting address (foobarlist-dist@world.std.com) must be subscribed to the mailing list. The /etc/aliases entry (wstd is my local newsgroup hierarchy): foobarlist-dist: wstd-mail-foobarlist wstd-mail-foobarlist: "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news wstd.mail.foobarlist wstd" post-wstd-mail-foobarlist: "|/usr/local/lib/news/news2mail foobarlist" foobarlist: foobarlist@real.address.here foobarlist-request: foobarlist-request@real.address.here The active file entry: wstd.mail.foobarlist 0000003259 02963 m And the program "mail2news": #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Gateway a mailing list to a local news group. # Written by Spike (spike@world.std.com) # invoked for /etc/aliases with a alias like # mailing-list-rdist: # "|/usr/local/lib/news/mail2news local.news.group.name distribution" $group = shift; $dist = shift; if ($group eq "-") { open(INEWS,"|/bin/cat -u"); } else { open(INEWS,"|/bin/inews -h"); } while (<>) { next if (/^From /); last unless (/^[^ \t]*:/ || (/^[ \t]/ && $. > 1)); if (/^To: /i || /^Cc: /i || /^Received: /i || /Apparently-To: /i || /^Return-Path: /) { $killed_last = 1; next; } next if (/^\s+/ && $killed_last); $killed_last = 0; print INEWS $_; } print INEWS "Newsgroups: $group\n"; print INEWS "Distribution: $dist\n"; print INEWS "Approved: usenet@world.std.com\n"; print INEWS "\n" if /\S+$/; print INEWS $_; while (<>) { print INEWS $_ ; } [end] From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 11:31:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23250 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:21:08 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA23122; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 11:20:51 -0700 Received: from uswat.advtech.uswest.com(130.13.16.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023058; Mon Aug 7 11:19:53 1995 Received: from centhub ([151.116.23.137]) by uswat.advtech.uswest.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA06148; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:44 -0600 Received: by centhub.mnet.uswest.com (M-Net Hub.950111) Received: from lws489.salttn by lms1 (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA08809; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:18:58 -0600 Received: from lws489 (localhost) by lws489.salttn (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19931; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 12:19:03 -0600 Message-Id: <9508071819.AA19931@lws489.salttn> To: Elizabeth Lear Cc: "Franklin R. Jones" , list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: majordomo list <--> newsgroup In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:51:47 EDT." <199508071651.AA00610@world.std.com> Date: Mon, 07 Aug 1995 12:19:02 -0600 From: "Franklin R. Jones" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk =>Here's what I do for this. This is a repeat of my posting here on 1 =>June 95. Thanks, eliz! That's exactly what I was looking for (with about the exact same implemption I was planning.) I must have missed it the first time you posted it. fj.. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 21:00:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA18186 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:48:41 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA18167 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 20:48:38 -0700 Received: from gw2.att.com(192.20.239.134) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018161; Mon Aug 7 20:47:53 1995 Received: from anuxv.UUCP by ig1.att.att.com id AA20322; Mon, 7 Aug 95 23:17:06 EDT Message-Id: <9508080317.AA20322@ig1.att.att.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: merchant@anuxv.att.com (s.merchant) Original-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: 7 Aug 1995 13:55 EDT Subject: re: Architext In-Reply-To: <199508071630.JAA20198@miles.greatcircle.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I said: | 1. They had a single address for *everything* !!?!! [...] Perhaps | their fuzzy logic fractal-based software straightens it all | out, but on the surface it certainly looked like it was being | run by amateurs! to which Kjetil Torgrim Homme says: >Sorting by the To/Cc headers isn't exactly rocket science. Of course, >some terribly broken lists use the individual recipient's address in and Graham Spencer adds: >Yes, I agree that this looked unprofessional. We should have specified >a separate address for the human in charge of the project. However, as >Kjetil Torgrim Homme suggested in a later >message, we do have software set up to sort email by sender. List >content is diverted to individual archives, and non-list content is Sorry, still not good enough! For one thing, Graham Spencer of Architext says this is handled by "sorting mail by sender." Clearly this doesn't work if he means the "From:" field. Perhaps he means the "Sender:" field in which case at least some of the popular MLMs put in a Sender: field that uniquely incorporates the list name. But is this guaranteed? What if there is no Sender: field? What if I send them personal e-mail with my own address in the Sender: field? Does their mail filter assume I am a list AND START ARCHIVING MY MESSAGES TO THEM FOR THE WORLD TO SEE? Or should one assume from Architext's casual invitation to "drop us a line to tell us that you have [added their address to your list]" to mean that they only start archiving once (and if) they get this message from the list owner? Or is all mail by default sent to a person and once that person establishes the actual "Sender:" field for a list, then that address is diverted to an archive? Or perhaps they really are using the "To/Cc:" fields as Kjetil Torgrim Homme assumes. Many of the same issues still apply! Suppose I send a message to list-managers with Cc: list@atext.com. Do they automatically start archiving it under a "list-managers" list archive, creating one for that purpose? Or does their filter exclude any message from being archived that has list@atext.com anywhere in a To: or Cc: field? And what if I put it in a "Bcc:" field? What if I put Cc: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no? Would it think that that's a list and create a *public* archive under that name for what is really personal mail from me to the Architext administrator and him? Would it make a difference which address were in the "To:" field and which in the "Cc:"? Yes, it's trivial to write a mail filter to handle all these cases and then some. But it's not trivial to anticipate all these cases, and it's even less trivial to convey to those like me (who waste my time wondering about special cases) some confidence that *they've* thought about all the special cases. And the casual way in which list owners were asked to add list@atext.com to their lists hardly gave much reassurance that all these things were considered! (And all this just to wonder why they didn't respond to my e-mail!) I'm actually supportive of their efforts, as I indicated in my earlier e-mail, and I've tried to make my criticism constructive. But, I say to Architext, "Go back and think about every concern that anyone has raised in this discussion and *address it*. I'm no expert on copyrights, for instance, but people bring up potential copyright problems associated with Architext's "reselling" this information and this 'scares' me (justifiably or not is irrelevant). So have *your* lawyers study the copyright issue, write up a statement that addresses every actual or potential concern you can think of that a list owner may have, and include this in your FAQ to list owners whose cooperation you're seeking." [Better late than never--I'm glad to see per Graham Spencer's e-mails that Architext has made a start at doing this sort of thing, and so I'll give them a week or two and check out their Web "answers" page....] Shahrukh From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 7 21:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA19203 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:29:57 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA19195 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:29:55 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019193; Mon Aug 7 21:29:12 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA27838 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:28:00 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508080428.WAA27838@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: re: Architext To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 22:27:59 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 567 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Sorry, still not good enough! For one thing, Graham Spencer of > Architext says this is handled by "sorting mail by sender." Clearly > this doesn't work if he means the "From:" field. Perhaps he means the > "Sender:" field in which case at least some of the popular MLMs put > in a Sender: field that uniquely incorporates the list name. But is > this guaranteed? [...] This is wandering off into the Land of Ludicrous Vendettas. Can we please call a halt to the straw-man flamage around this issue? -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 8 00:00:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA21893 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:48:28 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA21845 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:48:21 -0700 Received: from uucp-gw.cc.uh.edu(129.7.1.11) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021835; Mon Aug 7 23:47:31 1995 Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA04577 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for greatcircle.com!list-managers); Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:29:15 -0500 Received: by bonkers.taronga.com (smail2.5p) id AA01271; 8 Aug 95 01:17:33 CDT (Tue) Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.6) id BAA01268 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:17:32 -0500 From: Stephanie da Silva Message-Id: <199508080617.BAA01268@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Mailing Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 01:17:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 918 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Keith Moore: [Decided to clean out my mailbox here] > Maybe you could put a note in your list of lists to the effect that > one should only post messages that were on topic, and that one should > NEVER send the same message to all lists. At least the honest people > would know better then. I have been meaning to write a FAQ for months now to post to news.announce.newusers and have just never gotten around to it. Too many other projects going on (several which I've decided to shut down, like most of my newsreading) and I always shuffled it to the backburner. In it I plan to describe what mailing lists are, moderated vs. open, manual vs. managed with a listserver, the most common flavours of listservers, how to subscribe and unsubscribe, how to contact the list manager and a brief rundown of list etiquette. Woo, a bit more complex than it sounds on the surface. I'll get to it one of these days. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 8 13:01:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id MAA19656 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 1995 12:30:11 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA23692 for ; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 08:17:57 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023681; Fri Aug 4 08:17:46 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA22172 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:16:34 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508041516.JAA22172@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: bounce filter? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 4 Aug 1995 09:16:33 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 424 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else designed a filter for all the bounce messages that end up in a list manager's mailbox? I'm getting ready to whip one up that'll junk all the messages I know I don't need to see (all the "waiting mail" notifications, etc.), auto-unsubscribe deleted accounts...but if there's already something similar out there I don't want to duplicate the effort. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 9 12:02:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09140 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:57:55 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09055 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:57:43 -0700 Received: from canaima.me.berkeley.edu(128.32.142.70) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009030; Wed Aug 9 11:57:05 1995 Received: (from herrera@localhost) by canaima.ME.Berkeley.EDU (8.6.9/8.6.9) id LAA45187 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:56:34 -0700 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 11:56:34 -0700 From: Ramon F Herrera Message-Id: <199508091856.LAA45187@canaima.ME.Berkeley.EDU> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Looking for mailing list on CIX and related items Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is the closest place that I have found so far so ask my question, so please bear with me. I need to read about issues such as: CIX, how to handle partnership between Internet provider companies, ("if you send so many packets/bytes through my network, and I send so many, then you should pay me such and such at the end of the month"). Other issues would be the demark beetween government-sponsored networks and private ones. How is it best to split the Internet "pie" between fiercely competing companies that want to enter the ISP market in a country that recently "discovered" the Internet (geographically? by industry or level of reliability/confidentiality required?) I suppose that there must be some place on the Internet where the management and polices of the net itself are discussed. Mailing lists? Newsgroups? Other source of info on this topic? Isn't there something like 'isp-managers' mailing list? Thanks, -Ramon Herrera From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 9 21:30:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA08255 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 21:09:47 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA08188 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 21:09:39 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma008174; Wed Aug 9 21:08:41 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by hostname.schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA02177 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:09:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199508100409.XAA02177@hostname.schoneal.com> Subject: Hot Dog wonders... To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 23:09:20 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1540 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto said... | |Actually, I'm more against the _idea_ of what you and other services like |yours represent. I wrote in an earlier post about the similarity I see |between what you're doing and what West Publications does by indexing the |text of all legal procedings in the US and then claiming the right to sell |it all back to the citizens. In other words, I have philosophical |objections to your purpose. There are significant differences, since your |materials are available on the net, but you and I both know that once |mailing lists have sent their stuff, past posts are rarely archived unless |the host/maintainer has lots of money for HD space, so someday, you will |have people by the short and curlies if they want historical data. [Just some thoughts from the flip side...] This suggests that most people either can't afford the disk space, or are too short-sighted to save the data, or too lazy/untechnical/etc to set up archival/retrieval software. In any case, if someone else goes to the trouble to do all this, and charges a price people are willing to pay, it's a Good Thing, not a Bad Thing. Yeah, copyright issues have to be hashed out, but that's beside the point. If you can't afford a GB of disk (gee, it costs so *much* nowadays... 8^), or won't shell out the bucks, then why should someone else archive/index it for free for you? I love the Interet. I love free information. I also recognize that neither computers nor networks are free - they are paid for in money, or in time & effort. -Miles From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 10 09:30:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA25237 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:07:52 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA25196 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 09:07:46 -0700 Received: from turbo.kean.edu(131.125.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025166; Thu Aug 10 09:07:02 1995 Received: by turbo.kean.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Feb95-0139PM) id AA23451; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:07:28 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 12:07:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Redman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: FAQ? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm looking for either a list-managers-FAQ or a Majordomo-FAQ. Would anyone know of a site/place where I could get such a thing? Thanks in advance? **************************************************************************** Paul Turner | Kean College | &&&&& & & &&&&& &&&&&&& &&&&&& E-mail: pault@turbo.kean.edu |& & & & & & & & & & |& & & & & & & & | &&&&& & &&&&& &&&& & & &&&&&& Old men have dreams but | & & & & & & young men have vision. |& & & & & & & & - Seekers | &&&&& & &&&&& &&&&&&& & From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 10 15:00:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14439 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:34:54 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14393 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 14:34:46 -0700 Received: from turbo.kean.edu(131.125.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014379; Thu Aug 10 14:34:14 1995 Received: by turbo.kean.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/08Feb95-0139PM) id AA28338; Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:34:50 -0400 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 17:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Redman To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: OSF/1 3.2b Wrapper - errors.. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks Dave & Doug, I went to the Web site and found the page. But, it wasn't much help. I have a DEC Alpha 2100, running OSF/1 ver 3.2b. I've run into a snag with the "make wrapper". All the files wrapper.c & wrapper.sh are in the current directory. When I try to make wrapper I get this # make wrapper cc -DBIN=\"/usr/local/majordom\" -DPATH=\"PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/ucb\" -DHOME=\"HOME=/usr/local/majordom\" -DSHELL=\"SHELL=/bin/csh\" -DMAJORDOMO_CF=\"MAJORDOMO_CF=/usr/local/majordom/majordomo.cf\" -DPOSIX_UID=54 -DPOSIX_GID=54 -DSETGROUP -o wr apper wrapper.c /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/cfe: Warning: wrapper.c, line 65: illegal combination of pointer and integer if (strchr(argv[1], '/') != (char *) 0L) { -----------------------------^ /usr/lib/cmplrs/cc/cfe: Warning: wrapper.c, line 99: illegal combination of pointer and integer char setgroups_used = "setgroups_was_included"; ---------^ My home directory for Majordomo is /usr/local/majordom. My Makefile is set for POSIX. If anybody has some insights/suggestions, it would be greatly appreciated. .............................................................................. Joshua | __________________ Kean College Sys-op | ( I don't do ) Voice: 908-527-2061 | ( ) Email: joshua@turbo.kean.edu | ( Windows!!! ) | ( ) "All things will unfold as | ( I only do Motif! ) they should" | `---. ,------------' -Seekers | |/ | 0 ' | --|-- | | | /^\ From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 14 13:30:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA02785 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:07:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA02365 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:06:47 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smac02313; Mon Aug 14 13:06:10 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id MAA24275; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:54:06 -0700 From: sfn@washington.cospo.osis.gov Received: from relay2.cospo.osis.gov(198.81.186.194) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma024263; Mon Aug 14 12:53:46 1995 Received: by relay2.cospo.osis.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26716; Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:52:57 EDT Received: from washington.cospo.osis.gov(198.81.161.68) by relay2.cospo.osis.gov via smap (V1.3) id sma026713; Mon Aug 14 15:52:33 1995 Received: from UPC20.cospo.osis.gov by washington.cospo.osis.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA17470; Mon, 14 Aug 1995 16:05:08 -0400 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 95 15:54:03 PDT Subject: Problem with Majordomo on HPUX 9.05 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Mailer: Chameleon ARM_55, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to set up a Majordomo on a HP running HPUX 9.05. When I send a message to majordomo I get the following error message. Can anyone offer some suggestions?? majordomo: Exec format error 554 "|/usr/local/lib/mail/majordomo/sbin/wrapper majordomo"... unknown mailer error 5 _____________________________________________________ |Company: Q U A L I T Y S Y S T E M S I N C. | | __ __ _____ | |Real Name: Scott Nichols / \ / \ | | |Office Phone: (703) 281-8908 | | \__ | | |Office Fax : (703) 242-0013 | | \ | | |Compuserve 71620.1434 \ __ / \__/ __|__ | |Internet sfn@qsi.com \ | |_____________________________________________________| From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:00:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA27580 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:30:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA27554 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 17:30:39 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma027541; Wed Aug 16 17:30:22 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA14033 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 963 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I've finally been able to setup an experimental list server. Many thanks to Mr. Chapman for writing such an ingenious piece of software! I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config file which states: : # reply_to [word] () : # Put a reply-to header with value into the outgoin message. : # If the token $SENDER is used, then the address of the sender is used : # as the value of the reply-to header. This is the value of the reply- : # to header for digest lists. : reply_to = As you can see, it's for "digest lists". I am interested in regular mailing lists. If there is a way to do, I'll really appreciate if you could help me out here. Thanks. -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:30:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA29338 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:25:08 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA29319 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:25:05 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029310; Wed Aug 16 18:24:26 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA14596; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:23:02 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu (Soren Dayton) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:23:02 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170113.UAA10854@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> from "Soren Dayton" at Aug 16, 95 08:12:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 738 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: : [ snipped ] : I am curious what people think of this. : : Soren Dayton Sometimes, you really don't care who is sending the mail, you just want the replies to be distributed to the members. This kinda situation is most likly to arise in a mailing list which is considerably small and you know the emails of all the members. By small I mean, around 10-20 members. You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 18:37:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28982 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:11 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA28940 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 18:15:01 -0700 Received: from midway.uchicago.edu(128.135.12.73) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma028885; Wed Aug 16 18:14:24 1995 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA04826; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:13:09 -0500 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.6.10/8.6.4) with ESMTP id UAA10854; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:13:00 -0500 Message-Id: <199508170113.UAA10854@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> To: Muhammad Salman Mughal cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:28:53 CDT." <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:12:59 CDT From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the message <199508170028.TAA14033@earth.sparco.com>, Muhammad Salman Mughal said: > I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag >in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config >file which states: This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: 1. It rewrites a header that the user put there that is not dangerous. 2. It makes it harder to make individual responses to the author of the letter. 3. By my reading of RFC 822 it is not acceptable behaviour. This RFC seems to indicate that this is defined by the originator, not by the mailing list software I am curious what people think of this. Soren Dayton From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:30:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00871 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:02:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00855 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:02:37 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000847; Wed Aug 16 19:01:40 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08827; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:59:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508170159.UAA08827@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: salman@earth.sparco.com (Muhammad Salman Mughal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:59:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> from "Muhammad Salman Mughal" at Aug 16, 95 08:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 667 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Muhammad Salman Mughal writes: > You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in > the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for > overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) It would greatly behoove you to invest that time in reading the docs for your mail user agent (Elm as I see from the X-Mailer header) instead of hacking code. I'd start at the G)roup-reply command. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:33:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00835 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:00:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00795 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:00:37 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000785; Wed Aug 16 19:00:09 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id UAA14925; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:58:45 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170158.UAA14925@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: salman@earth.sparco.com (Muhammad Salman Mughal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:58:45 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508170123.UAA14596@earth.sparco.com> from "Muhammad Salman Mughal" at Aug 16, 95 08:23:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 922 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : : This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: : : : : [ snipped ] : : : I am curious what people think of this. : : : : Soren Dayton : : Sometimes, you really don't care who is sending the mail, you just : want the replies to be distributed to the members. This kinda situation : is most likly to arise in a mailing list which is considerably small and : you know the emails of all the members. By small I mean, around 10-20 : members. You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in : the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for : overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) I know you can include the listname email address in CC section, but I think it would be neat to just do a "reply" and start typing your comments :-) -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 19:36:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA01823 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:21:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA01781 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 19:21:53 -0700 Received: from earth.sparco.com(130.18.192.110) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001745; Wed Aug 16 19:21:01 1995 Received: (from salman@localhost) by earth.sparco.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id VAA15070; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:19:32 -0500 From: Muhammad Salman Mughal Message-Id: <199508170219.VAA15070@earth.sparco.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 21:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170159.UAA08827@chinacat.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Aug 16, 95 08:59:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 970 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk : : Muhammad Salman Mughal writes: : > You just cann't, rather don't wanna, type everyone's email in : > the CC: section. This is ofcouse what I think why there is a need for : > overwriting a "Reply-To:" tag :-) : : It would greatly behoove you to invest that time in reading the docs : for your mail user agent (Elm as I see from the X-Mailer header) : instead of hacking code. I'd start at the G)roup-reply command. I guess I was a little too obscure while stating my reasons for overriding the default "Reply-To:" tag. I simply think that "sometimes" there is no need to directly reply to the sender. All you want is that the reply should go back to the mailing list. Moreover, if you know the person who is sending the mail, you could always do a "forward" to his/her email address if you want to send a private note. Regards, -- Salman Mughal Computer Science Mississippi State University Email: msm6@Ra.MsState.Edu WWW: http://www2.msstate.edu/~msm6 From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 21:00:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA05794 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:39:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA05785 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 20:38:59 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005781; Wed Aug 16 20:38:00 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA14069 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:38:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199508170338.WAA14069@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:38:28 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1365 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Soren Dayton said... |Muhammad Salman Mughal said: |>I was wondering if there is a way to append/assign "Reply-To:" tag |>in the outgoing mail header? There is something in the listname.config |>file which states: | This strikes me as a bad thing to do. Here are my reasons: | 1. It rewrites a header that the user put there that is | not dangerous. Or as likely, the site's sendmail config file did. And not all sites/mailers add this header. | 2. It makes it harder to make individual responses to | the author of the letter. With all the lists I'm on, group responses are *much* more common than individual responses. You make the common response the easier response. In general, I prefer the reply to go to the list, so I like the idea. I'm on 7 or 8 lists, and all but a couple include a Reply-to: list_address header. | 3. By my reading of RFC 822 it is not acceptable | behaviour. This RFC seems to indicate that this is | defined by the originator, not by the mailing list | software Too bad. The RFC will just have to get its own list. 8^) Seriously, this is a logical thing for some lists, and it's up to the list admin and/or the list members to decide what they want. If the originator has a problem with this, they can discuss it with the list administrator and/or the list. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 16 22:30:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA09322 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:16:03 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA09314 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 1995 22:16:01 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma009310; Wed Aug 16 22:15:50 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10331; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:14:14 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508170514.AAA10331@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: salman@earth.sparco.com (Muhammad Salman Mughal) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:14:10 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508170219.VAA15070@earth.sparco.com> from "Muhammad Salman Mughal" at Aug 16, 95 09:19:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 692 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Muhammad Salman Mughal writes: > I simply think that "sometimes" there is no > need to directly reply to the sender. I'm tired of beating this horse every three months. (And not necessarily just on this list.) I've thrown together a *very* rough draft of a page on this topic, entitled ``Reply-To Munging Considered Harmful''. It is available at . I welcome any comments. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 08:30:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA23153 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:17:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA23137 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:16:58 -0700 Received: from basis.basis.com(204.52.207.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023133; Thu Aug 17 08:16:55 1995 Received: (from mail@localhost) by basis.basis.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA00450 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 09:13:12 -0600 Received: from bbx.basis.com(204.134.1.133) by basis.basis.com via smap (V1.3) id sma001712; Thu Aug 17 08:26:10 1995 Received: from speedyg.basis.com (speedyg.basis.com [204.134.1.191]) by bbx.basis.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA03380 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:27:32 GMT Received: (from elongmi@localhost) by speedyg.basis.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA06804 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 14:31:56 GMT From: Ernie Longmire Message-Id: <199508171431.OAA06804@speedyg.basis.com> Subject: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:31:46 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 706 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > : # reply_to [word] () > : # Put a reply-to header with value into the outgoin message. > : # If the token $SENDER is used, then the address of the sender is used > : # as the value of the reply-to header. This is the value of the reply- > : # to header for digest lists. > : reply_to = > > As you can see, it's for "digest lists". Majordomo's "reply_to" setting applies to *all* lists; I use it to force replies to the list on my lists. The wording in the config file is extremely unclear and misleading. (The "how to do this under majordomo" aspects of this discussion belong on the majordomo-users list, not here.) -- Ernie Longmire (elongmi@basis.com) From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 08:42:48 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22859 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:07:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22844 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 08:06:58 -0700 Received: from nic.state.mn.us(156.98.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022838; Thu Aug 17 08:06:36 1995 Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) id KAA05051; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:05:23 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:05:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "S Clift (North Star)" X-Sender: nstar@nic To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Preventing Mail Loops, Other Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a few weeks the person who set-up majordomo and has served as list administrator will be leaving (he was on a summer contract). I assume his responsibilities will be shifted, but I need to make some changes ASAP to prevent a mail loop from developing on the two unmoderated lists that I own. How do I (or does list adminstrator have to) change the Reply-To section from the the list to the original sender. We had someone go on vaction, activate their auto-reply and boom - major embarrassment. Also, I get this "bounce" message periodically. What is messed up? Thanks, Steven Clift State of Minnesota nstar@nic.state.mn.us ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:05 -0500 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: owner-gov-net@nic Subject: Returned mail: aliasing/forwarding loop broken The original message was received at Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:04 -0500 from majordom@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- bounces-outgoing (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Message delivered to mailing list bounces-outgoing 554 bounces-outgoing... aliasing/forwarding loop broken ----- Original message follows ----- Return-Path: Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) id AAA03364; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:04 -0500 Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) id AAA03358; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199508170500.AAA03358@nic.state.mn.us> To: Bounces@nic.state.mn.us From: nobody@nic.state.mn.us Subject: Bouncing email from mailing lists at nic.state.mn.us Reply-To: Majordomo@nic.state.mn.us Sender: owner-gov-net@nic.state.mn.us Precedence: bulk Your address has been moved to Bounces@nic.state.mn.us from some other mailing list at nic.state.mn.us because email to you was bouncing. Here are the addresses currently on Bounces@nic.state.mn.us so that you can see which of your addresses is among them. The comment for each address shows the date it was moved, and the first list it was removed from. If you were on multiple lists here, you may have been removed from them as well, but only the first list you were removed from will show up in the comment below. If the problem has been fixed, you can get off of Bounces and back on to the other list by sending the following to Majordomo@nic.state.mn.us: subscribe your_list unsubscribe bounces To subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than where you're sending the command from, append the other address to the end of the "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" command (for example, "subscribe your_list foo@bar.com"). You'll need to access the mailing list archives if you want to catch up on whatever you missed while you were off the main list. If you don't want to keep getting these reminders every day, but don't want to resubscribe to the list, send just the "unsubscribe" command shown above. If you need to contact a human being regarding this, send a message to Majordomo-Owner@nic.state.mn.us. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 11:01:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29214 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:32:31 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29174 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 10:32:22 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029133; Thu Aug 17 10:32:14 1995 Received: from gyda.ifi.uio.no (1232@gyda.ifi.uio.no [129.240.78.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:30:58 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gyda.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:30:58 +0200 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:30:58 +0200 Message-Id: <199508171730.2413.gyda.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <199508170514.AAA10331@chinacat.unicom.com> (message from Chip Rosenthal on Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:14:10 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Chip Rosenthal] | I've thrown together a *very* rough draft of a page on this topic, | entitled ``Reply-To Munging Considered Harmful''. It is available | at . I welcome | any comments. Great, Chip! All you who advocate munging Reply-to must read this. I'd be interested to hear you refute what Chip's saying. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 11:30:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA01215 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:06:45 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA01193 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 11:06:41 -0700 Received: from dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com(148.59.2.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001183; Thu Aug 17 11:06:22 1995 Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id MAA27736 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:42:04 -0400 Newsgroups: local.list-managers Path: scs From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails Message-ID: <1995Aug17.164202.27695@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Organization: Inland Sea References: <199508170113.UAA10854@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> Distribution: local Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 16:42:02 GMT Lines: 13 Apparently-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Soren Dayton writes: > This strikes me as a bad thing to do . . . [[reasons removed]] > I am curious what people think of this. *shrug* For some lists its the right thing to do, for some it's not. So long as the participants know what the individual list does, it's cool. -- Simmons' Law Of Alcoholic Expectations: The best stuff always happens after the meeting, when everyone goes to the bar. Correlary: Any meeting which doesn't adjourn to the bar isn't worth going to. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 13:35:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10740 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:28:48 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA10647 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 13:28:33 -0700 Received: from dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com(148.59.2.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma010579; Thu Aug 17 13:28:02 1995 Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id QAA07315 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 16:25:54 -0400 Newsgroups: local.list-managers Path: scs From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails Message-ID: <1995Aug17.202552.7274@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Organization: Inland Sea References: <199508171730.2413.gyda.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Distribution: local Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 20:25:52 GMT Lines: 138 Apparently-To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: >[Chip Rosenthal] >| I've thrown together a *very* rough draft of a page on this topic, >| entitled ``Reply-To Munging Considered Harmful''. It is available >| at . I welcome >| any comments. >Great, Chip! All you who advocate munging Reply-to must read this. I'd >be interested to hear you refute what Chip's saying. Summary: same as what I said earlier `*shrug*', but at greater length. Taking Chips summary as a kicking off point, I will offer refutation by various counter-examples. Most prominent will be the General Technics/Permanent Floating Riot Club mailing list, which does Reply-To munging. FYI, Chip and I go way back on the Elm lists, and I have great respect for him and his work. Nothing I say here should be taken as personal criticism of Chip, nor does my disagreement here lessen my respect of him. chip> Many people want to munge Reply-To headers. They believe it makes chip> reply-to-list easier, and it encourages more list traffic. It really chip> does neither, and is a very poor idea. Reply-To munging suffers from chip> the following problems: chip> chip> o It violates the principle of minimal munging. True. chip> o It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. This presumes of course, that the readers of the mailing list all have access to a reasonable mailer. One member of the Dorsai Irregulars Mailing List works for a bank which mandates the use of a particular brain-dead system that uses X.400 addresses, cannot generate a subject field on internet-gated mail, and always generates return addresses of the form `X.400 crap here'@bank.x400domain!otherhost@attmail.com Assuming her mailer understands the difference between group and individual reply is not a safe assumption. Nor is assuming that a given user knows that difference for any given mail package. chip> o It actually reduces functionality for the user of a chip> reasonable mailer. If the list is done correctly, only in a very minimal fashion. Consider the following article from gt-pfrc [I've purged many of the irrelevant headers]: gt> From: nickerson@BIX.com gt> Subject: Re: Part help?... gt> To: gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com gt> Sender: owner-gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com gt> Reply-To: gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com gt> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:49:43 -0400 (EDT) gt> gt> {#} Replies are directed back to gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com gt> {#} To reply to the author, write to nickerson@BIX.com gt> gt> >We've a 10base-T hub at work in which the cooling fan has decided gt> >to go on strike permanently. gt> gt> When my power supply fan decided to start squealing, and then stopped, gt> I disassembled it, cleaned it, and lubed it (Triflow-the world's best gt> lubricrant). It's like new again. Unless a wire burnt up there isn't gt> much that can go wrong with a fan. gt> gt> Kevin "Can't break it, it alread is" gt> gt> {#}--------------=[ GT/PFRC -- Science Fact and Science Fiction ]=--- Note the inserted {#}. Since Gabe (the list manager) has been doing this, I have seen zero (count-em) zero complaints about mis-replied mail. Previously, people were constantly getting things other than what they expected. chip> o It penalizes the person with a reasonable mailer in order to chip> coddle those running brain-dead software. I would argue that penalization is small to zero, where the win for letting members with brain-dead software participate can be a big win for the right group. chip> o It removes important information, which can make it impossible chip> to get back to the message sender. Note in the gt-pfrc example above, the important data is right there at your fingertips. Gabe did it right. chip> o It is arrogant because it asserts the will of the list chip> administrator onto all of the list subscribers. The group as a whole wished for the change. Doing anything other than following the will of the group would be arrogant. chip> o It violates the principle of least work because complicates chip> the procedure for replying to messages. The members of the list decided they wished all the items to go to the list as a whole (and gt-pfrc is not the only list I see like that). chip> o It violates the principle of least surprise because it changes chip> the way a mailer works. This criticism can be made of *any* capricious use of Reply-To:, as various email and netnews spams have shown us. The critical point is *capricious* use. Reply-To has a purpose, and when used wisely it works fine. chip> o It violates the principle of least damage, and it encourages chip> a failure mode that can be extremely embarrassing -- or worse. Agreed. chip> o Your subscribers don't want you to do it. Disproof by counter-example, above. My summary -- if it's what the members want and is done with care and caution, it works fine. I agree with Chip that in *most* cases, automatic `Reply-To: list' is a bad idea, but there are definately times when it is the right thing to do. Chip, if you'd like to drop this onto your page as a comment I'd be honored. Steve -- Simmons' Law Of Alcoholic Expectations: The best stuff always happens after the meeting, when everyone goes to the bar. Correlary: Any meeting which doesn't adjourn to the bar isn't worth going to. From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 17 19:30:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA03714 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:01:19 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA03676 for ; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 19:01:14 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma003663; Thu Aug 17 19:00:35 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA16790; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:59:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508180159.UAA16790@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:59:17 -0500 (CDT) Cc: bthorp@wimsey.bc.ca In-Reply-To: <6npCmyib7Sd8078yn@wimsey.bc.ca> from "Bryan Thorp" at Aug 17, 95 05:55:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1021 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [name from private email message elided] writes: > Would you happen to have a text version that's ftp-able? I'm answering this private message in public just in case anybody else out there wants this info. The "Reply-To Munging Considered Harmful" paper is available in any of the following ways: FTP: nope, sorry WWW: http://www.unicom.com/FAQ/reply-to-evil.html Gopher: in the FAQ area of gopher.unicom.com E-Mail: send a message To: archive-server@unicom.com Subject: send 00h/FAQ/reply-to-evil Just the Subject: matters, the message body is ignored. Be sure to get the Subject: spelled and capitalized precisely as shown. By the way, the URL I provided last night had a typo (extra slash), but it works anyway. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 18 07:30:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA23880 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 07:28:48 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA23851 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 07:28:41 -0700 Received: from toast.eushc.org(163.246.96.100) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023805; Fri Aug 18 07:28:32 1995 Received: from mind.org (root@mind.org [163.246.12.100]) by toast.eushc.org (8.6.12/EUSHC) with ESMTP id KAA22495 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:27:18 -0400 Received: by mind.org (8.6.11/mind.org) with UUCP id KAA25272; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:11:08 -0400 Received: by knex.mind.org (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Fri, 18 Aug 95 09:05:45 EST for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails From: Gess Shankar Reply-To: gess@knex.mind.org (Gess Shankar) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 95 08:39:08 EST In-Reply-To: <199508171730.2413.gyda.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Organization: |<><>| Knowledge Exchange, GA, USA |<><>| Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kjetil Torgrim Homme writes: > [Chip Rosenthal] > > | I've thrown together a *very* rough draft of a page on this topic, > | entitled ``Reply-To Munging Considered Harmful''. It is available > | at . I welcome > | any comments. > > Great, Chip! All you who advocate munging Reply-to must read this. I'd > be interested to hear you refute what Chip's saying. > I see the point about minimal munging, but the reply-to-evil document which accuses List Admins of arrogance is arrogant itself by assuming that users have control over what mail agent they run. Online service subscribers will likely form the majority of many lists and things like "r" and "R"s mean nothing to them. Compuserve appears to present the envelope From_ as the address to send to, when the users push the Reply button (and there is only one reply button to push). AOL ui probably has a similar interface. Any amount of quoting RFC822 and other RFCs will do no good with these faceless corporations. They may change eventually, but in the meantime.... Recently a list I subscribe to had to revert to Reply-To munging due to hue and cry from the subscribers. This... despite incidences described in Chip's document... private mail sent to list accidentally. And most of them software developers with "smart" mailers (I presume). I do set Reply-To: to one of the lists I run to the list address. The list is moderated and consists of large number of online service users. I had to take this tactic, because posters' mailboxes were getting flooded with responses (flames, me too etc.) and good contributors started leaving the list or stopped contributing. Unless there is a universal standard on how headers are treated by the various MUAs, especially by services like AOL, Prodigy, msn et al I am ambivalent. Most AOL users won't know how to post to this list, for example and will reply only to the original poster. GeSS -- Gess Shankar |<><>|Internet: gess@knex.mind.ORG |<><>| Knowledge Exchange|<><>|:::::::::::::::::::::::::|<><>| From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 18 09:00:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26939 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:44:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26878 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 08:44:26 -0700 Received: from miso.wwa.com(198.49.174.33) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026868; Fri Aug 18 08:44:01 1995 Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #8) id m0sjTZI-000FYLC; Fri, 18 Aug 95 10:42 CDT Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Clobbering "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mail To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 10:42:48 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <1995Aug17.202552.7274@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> from "Steve Simmons" at Aug 17, 95 08:25:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6815 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steve Simmons took some exceptions to Chip Rosenthal's anti-munging position: (Note: I am one of the people who tried to talk Chip out of munging before he saw the light on his own. That said, the lists I run offer default public reply as a discouraged option and one has a sublist which, by its nature, justifies default public replies, but as a general rule I am very strongly in favor of default private replies.) R> o It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. S> This presumes of course, that the readers of the mailing list all have S> access to a reasonable mailer. OK, Steve, suppose a list member has a mailer with no group-reply facility. Which is easier for him or her to do: 1. To override a default private reply by typing in the list address, which the member may well know by heart or for which he or she may have an alias installed; or 2. To override a default public reply by writing down and typing in the author's address, which the respondent is very unlikely to have already memorized or aliased? S> Consider the following [sample] from [the General Technics/Permanent Floating Riot Club list, whose maintainer Steve called just "Gabe"] ... : S> gt> From: nickerson@BIX.com S> gt> Subject: Re: Part help?... S> gt> To: gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com S> gt> Sender: owner-gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com S> gt> Reply-To: gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com S> gt> Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 12:49:43 -0400 (EDT) S> gt> S> gt> {#} Replies are directed back to gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com S> gt> {#} To reply to the author, write to nickerson@BIX.com Some HUGE points to make here: 1. A reader wishing to send a private reply still has to write down or memorize the author's address and type it in. If the reader's mailer does have a group-reply facility, its functionality is short-circuited. 2. You left a *big* question open. What happens when the author sends headers with a Reply-To: address that differs from the From: header? (The sample you used originated from BIX, so it probably had no incoming Reply-To: header.) Does Gabe put the incoming Reply-To: information into the body or always use From:, losing the original Reply-To:? If he always takes it from From:, then the real address for private replies is *lost*, just as Chip said happens when you munge. 3. If you're taking the stand that reminding people where to send a private reply is just as good as making it easy, then anyone else can take the position that reminding people where to send a public reply is just as good as making it easy. With all the other arguments in favor of default- ing to private replies, it makes more sense to leave the headers alone and insert this: {#} Replies are directed the author at nickerson@BIX.com {#} To reply to the list, write to gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com 4. Headers and footers don't work very well. We've had similar discussions on list-managers about putting the submission and administrative addresses into a header or a footer of every item, and we all know the results: the members who need those reminders are the most likely to ignore them. A large contingent worship their reply functions as omniscient gods, will ignore or forget what they saw in the text, will slam their `r' keys out of mindless habit, and will neglect or forget to change the reply address. Notice I spoke of using the keyboard: those who use pictorial interfaces are MORE prone yet to accept with blind faith whatever happens when they click on their reply icons and tend to be extremely reluctant to second- guess their infallible computers. However, I do thank you and Gabe for that idea; until now, for those list members who opt for default public replies despite my discouragement, I've been saving any original Reply-To: header as an "Author-Reply-To:" header. I may move the information to the body, where readers will have a slightly greater chance of registering it. R> o It penalizes the person with a reasonable mailer in order to R> coddle those running brain-dead software. S> I would argue that penalization is small to zero, where the win for S> letting members with brain-dead software participate can be a big S> win for the right group. What big win? What *little* win? Members can participate only if they can write where they mean to write, and as I illustrated above it's far easier to override a default private reply when you want to answer in public than to override a default public reply when you want to answer in private. Getting your private mail blared to the world is what I call a penalty, and there is no win at all. Sending personal mail for one other member out to the entire list isn't participation; it's disruption. R> o It removes important information, which can make it impossible R> to get back to the message sender. S> Note in the gt-pfrc example above, the important data is right there S> at your fingertips. The address is far from your fingertips; you have to memorize it or write it down to have it available when you redirect your response. And are those the _important_ data? Read on: S> Gabe did it right. OK, suppose there are special-case reasons for gt-pfrc to default to public replies: again, one question is still unanswered. You didn't say whether, if an incoming submission has its own Reply-To: header, Gabe uses it in the body or ignores it and always repeats From: in the body. If he uses the From: header when there is an incoming Reply-To:, he's doing it very, very wrong. S> The group as a whole wished for the change. ... They were unanimous -- no dissensions, no abstentions? Groups never function as wholes. That's why I made it an option. S> My summary -- if it's what the members want and is done with care S> and caution, it works fine. I agree with Chip that in *most* cases, S> automatic `Reply-To: list' is a bad idea, but there are definately S> times when it is the right thing to do. My summary: [1] the lists where it is wrong but done regardless definitely outnumber those where it is right and done accordingly; [2] there is never a monolithic preference in any mailing list with two or more members; [3] it is far easier to respond publicly when the default is private (even without a group-reply facility in your mailer) than to respond privately when the default is public; and [4] it is easy to fix having sent a reply privately when you meant to send it publicly but _impossible_ to undo having sent it publicly when you wanted to send it privately. S> Correlary: ... That's "corollary". You might be confusing it with "correlation". This is already very long, and I'm done responding to Steve Simmons, so I'll send the rest of my comments on the matter separately. From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 18 19:00:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA06298 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:43:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA06282 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:43:20 -0700 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com(192.100.81.130) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006274; Fri Aug 18 18:42:49 1995 Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id SAA02850; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:39:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 18:39:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Dick Moores X-Sender: rdm@netcom17 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Where to get help for LISTPROC In-Reply-To: <199508190038.RAA03563@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Where do I go to get answers to questions that aren't covered in the docs available to users of LISTPROC? Is there a list? Thanks Dick Moores rdm@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 18 21:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA12156 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 20:39:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA12110 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 20:38:54 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma012081; Fri Aug 18 20:37:49 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA05425; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:35:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508190335.WAA05425@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:35:08 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List) In-Reply-To: <1995Aug17.202552.7274@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> from "Steve Simmons" at Aug 17, 95 08:25:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4707 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks for the comments Steve. I don't want to create a long boring point-by-point counter-rebuttal. There are, however, a few comments I'd like to make. Steve Simmons writes: > Summary: same as what I said earlier `*shrug*', but at greater length. My concern is that if it's just a "shrug" then it shouldn't be done. You seem to agree with me that the "Principle of Minimal Munging" is a useful guide. As I point out, this is not a hard-and-fast rule. Rather, it sets a default: unless there is good reason to, then don't. If the balance between benefits and drawbacks is no more than a shrug, then I think the principle kicks in and says, ``Don't.'' > gt> {#} Replies are directed back to gt-pfrc@angus.mystery.com > gt> {#} To reply to the author, write to nickerson@BIX.com I wrote that note to get people to think about this stuff. As I said, RFC-822 is deceptively tricky. I showed, for instance, how munging Reply-To can lose important information, making the sender unreachable. I fear that most people who munge do not think about these things. I find two interesting things about Steve's example. First, it's clear that he *has* thought about the problems. The added tag-line prevents the loss of potentially important information. It helps address some of the other problems, such as reducing the "surprise" factor. On the other hand, the tag line confirms that the problems that I raised are real. Reply-To munging, for instance, breaks the reply function. If it didn't, the tag line wouldn't be necessary. > chip> o It violates the principle of minimal munging. > > True. Oh sure...give me the one that I say was "invented to be broken". :-) > chip> o It provides no benefit to the user of a reasonable mailer. > > This presumes of course, that the readers of the mailing list all have > access to a reasonable mailer. Correct. In fact, I *demand* that my list members have access to a minimally reasonable mail system. I will, for instance, drop a member simply because their site bounces to an address in the header rather than following the envelope. Ultimately, we do the community a disservice by coddling the mail systems that are broken in egregious ways. For minor forms of brokenness (e.g. no reply-to-group function), I think they get to live with it. Given a choice of forcing 98% of the people to type addresses for reply-to-sender or forcing 2% of the people to type addresses for reply-to-group, I'll pick the latter. > chip> o It penalizes the person with a reasonable mailer in order to > chip> coddle those running brain-dead software. > > I would argue that penalization is small to zero But you wouldn't convince me. :-) Breaking my "r" key is not a small penalty. If it was, then the {#} tag lines, clever as they may be, would be unnecessary. > chip> o Your subscribers don't want you to do it. > > Disproof by counter-example, above. Unfortunately, I suspect the people posting to comp.mail.elm asking for a "reply-to-From-and-ignore-Reply-To" feature think Reply-To munging is really groovy because they can reply with a single keystroke. If somebody would take the time to teach them what the "g" key does, I think they'd change their mind. > My summary -- if it's what the members want and is done with care > and caution, it works fine. I agree with Chip that in *most* cases, > automatic `Reply-To: list' is a bad idea, but there are definately > times when it is the right thing to do. I believe your implementation of Reply-To munging is a lot less harmful than the "strip out the old one, slap in a new one" that is performed typically. It's clear you've thought about the problems, and that's my main beef: people who munge without considering what it does. Nonetheless, I'm kind of struck that you've gone through all this effort just to help one poor woman stuck behind a brain dead X.400 gateway. She must be one special lady. :-) Personally, I'd be inclined to tell her she was stuck typing in the address for her responses, and teach everybody else how the reply-to-group function works in their mailer. > Chip, if you'd like to drop this onto your page as a comment I'd be > honored. Thanks. I am saving off whatever discussion results from this issue. I would like to make some of that discussion available to people as a companion to the note. (I will, of course, contact the authors directly for permission before doing so.) -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 18 22:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA14948 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:18:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA14940 for ; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 22:18:23 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014938; Fri Aug 18 22:18:16 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA28572; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:18:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199508190518.AAA28572@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Appending "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mails To: chip@unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:18:22 -0500 (CDT) Cc: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508190335.WAA05425@chinacat.unicom.com> from "Chip Rosenthal" at Aug 18, 95 10:35:08 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 399 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the list I manage where we change the Reply-to field, the group (about 20 at the time) was unanimous in desiring this change. We have had moderate turnover in the couple of years since then, with a total of 2 mis-sent private messages, and no complaints of any sort about rewriting Reply-to's. Group responses outweigh personal responses by at least 20:1 on this list. -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 06:30:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21040 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 06:20:58 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21023 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 06:20:55 -0700 Received: from asarian.org(152.52.36.201) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021014; Sat Aug 19 06:20:21 1995 Received: from ASARian.org (fuzzy@ASARian.org [152.52.36.201]) by ASARian.org (8.6.10/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA10101 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 09:18:54 -0400 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 09:18:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Fuzzy To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: re: munging reply-to headers (digest V4 #154) In-Reply-To: <199508190400.VAA13075@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: Organization: *fuzzies* and *e-hugs* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Aug 1995 list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM wrote: > Received: from relay2.UU.NET (relay2.UU.NET [192.48.96.7]) by ASARian.org (8.6.10/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA08346 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:04:03 -0400 > From: list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM > Received: from miles.greatcircle.com by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP > id QQzdki29958; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 00:01:51 -0400 > Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA13075 for list-managers-digest-outgoing; Fri, 18 Aug 1995 21:00:27 -0700 > Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 21:00:27 -0700 > Message-Id: <199508190400.VAA13075@miles.greatcircle.com> > To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: List-Managers-Digest V4 #154 > Reply-To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Errors-To: list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM > Precedence: bulk > > we are using MD also, and are using 'reply-to: ' to make it easier for list members to default to public replys. our headers look something the above headers... our users are using pine 3.91 and it asks, if there is a reply-to:, if it should use the original from:, (private reply), or reply-to:, (public reply). we find this works fine for our users. in fact they like that the MUA asks them. we are confused as why one would not want the choice? Your Friend, _____ __ __ ____ ____ __ __ / ___// // //__ )/__ )\ \/ / / __/ / // / / /__ / /__\ / (_/ (____/ <____/<____//_/ SysAdmin, ASARian.org Email: fuzzy@asarian.org (non-anon) an72289@anon.penet.fi (true anon) anon-2986@anon.twwells.com (true anon) From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 08:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22996 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:11:16 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22988 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:11:14 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022985; Sat Aug 19 08:10:48 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 17:09:35 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 17:09:34 +0200 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 17:09:34 +0200 Message-Id: <199508191509.12347.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: fuzzy@asarian.org CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Fuzzy on Sat, 19 Aug 1995 09:18:53 -0400 (EDT)) Subject: re: munging reply-to headers (digest V4 #154) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Fuzzy] | our users are using pine 3.91 and it asks, if there is a | reply-to:, if it should use the original from:, (private reply), | or reply-to:, (public reply). we find this works fine for our | users. in fact they like that the MUA asks them. Argh! Don't you see that this goes against the intent of the Reply-To header? Pine has been hacked to conform to the _broken_ behaviour of many mailing lists. A reasonable header should notice that the user's email address wasn't in the To: or Cc: headers, and deduce that the mail is sent to mailing list.. It can then ask the user if he wants a public (same To and Cc, and From/Reply-To address in addition (in case the sender isn't on the list)) or private reply (just From/Reply-To). Why break what works perfectly by munging headers? Give intelligent software a chance! There is _no_ excuse for the commercial providers to offer their customers inferior interfaces. If they don't comply, don't support them. It _is_ that simple. The providers _deserve_ irate calls from their customers. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 09:00:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA24001 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:55:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA23993 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:55:32 -0700 Received: from sgi.com(192.48.153.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023990; Sat Aug 19 08:55:00 1995 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id IAA25341; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:51:19 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id IAA19589; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:51:19 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199508191551.IAA19589@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 08:51:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2379 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This has to be one of the weirdest abuses of net resources I've seen by a postmaster and system adiministrator. Basically nbi.com uses Usenet newsgroups to try to contact ONE person whenever that person's e-mail bounces from nbi.com mailing lists: > From: leigh@nbi.com (Leigh Melton) Newsgroups: rec.crafts.textiles.sewing Subject: attn: RHYS88A@prodigy.com Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Aug 95 08:25:11 EDT RHYS88A@prodigy.com has been unsubscribed from Sew-L. You were unsubscribed AFTER your mail began to bounce because of "user has decided not to accept Internet mail" errors began flooding in. In future I hope you have the courtesy to unsubscribe from a mailing list before you decide to not accept the mail which you ASKED to receive. * - - - - - - - - - - - * | Leigh Melton | | Postmaster | | nbi.com | | Atlanta, Georgia USA | * - - - - - - - - - - - * **************************************** I sent Mr. Melton e-mail objecting to just a waste of newsgroup bandwidth. I, personally, run several mailing lists -- e-mail bounces all the time and if I posted everytime it happened I'd be posting 10-20 times a day! If every list owner who read rec.crafts.textiles.sewing did so too, the group would quickly be overrun with "hey, your e-mail is bouncing" messages. I asked Mr. Melton to deal with such issues privately and told him the sewing newsgroup was not an appropriate place for such notices. Mr. Melton forwarded my message to nbi.com's system administrator Joe George. Mr. George wrote me basically (and rudely) saying that they'll f*ing do what they want, that it's their policy at their site to notify users unsubscribed from their lists due to faults with e-mail of the situation using Usenet newsgroups, and that they'll damn well continue to do so. Mr. George suggests if I, or anyone else, doesn't like this policy to put nbi.com in the killfile. I've put nbi.com in my killfile after seeing the first blatant waste of newsgroup space. Do any other list managers agree with, or follow, the same policy as nbi.com? I think this site has a ridiculous attitude toward the Usenet newsgroups and their proper use, but am I out of touch with the times (given all the spamming, etc. that goes on now) or am I on target? -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 11:00:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA00873 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 10:54:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA00823 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 10:53:55 -0700 Received: from uumail2.netcom.com(163.179.3.52) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000782; Sat Aug 19 10:52:52 1995 Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA02211; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 10:49:27 -0700 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA15944; Sat, 19 Aug 95 10:46:16 -0700 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 10:46:16 -0700 Message-Id: <9508191746.AA15944@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Close writes: >This has to be one of the weirdest abuses of net resources I've seen by >a postmaster and system adiministrator. Basically nbi.com uses Usenet >newsgroups to try to contact ONE person whenever that person's e-mail >bounces from nbi.com mailing lists: >I've put nbi.com in my killfile after seeing the first blatant waste >of newsgroup space. Do any other list managers agree with, or follow, >the same policy as nbi.com? I'm afraid you have run into one of the side effects of the wild-west anarchy of the Net in general. Yes, I agree with you that their attitude needs some adjustment and if I were Master of the Universe I would cut off the nbi.com site's access until they become more reasonable. Hopefully, they will be ostracized by their peers. On another tack, this just adds to my ongoing observation that the USENET is has been fissioning into an overbloated, useless (USELESSNET?) organisim with a noise-to-signal ratio that renders it virtually unusable anyway. The only groups that I ever bother with any more are the highly technical or the moderated groups. USENET was bad enough when there were only a few tens of thousands of contributors. Then, the biggest headache was when the fall semester rolled around, which is when all the newbies got access and started making their first clueless posts. Now, with commercial access on-line, this happens ALL the time with thousands of times more lowest-common- denominator type players. So, as far as USEFUL forums go, moderated newsgroups or mailing lists are about the only viable vehichle. USENET is going the way of CB. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 11:30:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA02313 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 11:19:14 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA02276 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 11:19:09 -0700 Received: from bdt.com(140.174.173.10) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002267; Sat Aug 19 11:18:23 1995 Received: by bdt.bdt.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.4) id ; Sat, 19 Aug 95 11:12 PDT Message-Id: Date: Sat, 19 Aug 95 11:19 PDT Received: from noident@philw.dial-up.bdt.com(204.188.159.99) by bdt via smap (V1.3bdt) id smaa11458; Sat Aug 19 11:11:53 1995 X-Sender: philw@bdt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Phil Wolff Subject: GUI for list management Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Have you seen or used a GUI client for administering listserv or majordomo? It would seem that almost all of the data, commands, feautres and scripts could easily be manipulated through dialog boxes and other GUI controls. I'm imagining a tool along the lines of a Eudora (interacting with POP3) or Free Agent (with Usenet news) that would let me view current settings, scripts, statistics, and subscribers and easily, directly change them. ________________________ Phil Wolff philw@bdt.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 16:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA11999 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:46:20 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA11958 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:46:14 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com(165.113.1.25) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma011948; Sat Aug 19 15:45:30 1995 Received: by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA00942 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:45:37 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 19 Aug 95 15:23:56 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: (from jgeorge@localhost) by twiglet.nbi.com (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id OAA18081 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:54:22 -0400 From: Joe George Message-Id: <199508191854.OAA18081@twiglet.nbi.com> Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:54:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Speaking as the mailing list manager in question, I feel a STRONG need to clear the air over the policies that we implement here at nbi.com, and I feel the need also to question why Ms. Close seems to have such a MAJOR bug up her ass over this whole ordeal. > >This has to be one of the weirdest abuses of net resources I've seen by > >a postmaster and system adiministrator. Basically nbi.com uses Usenet > >newsgroups to try to contact ONE person whenever that person's e-mail > >bounces from nbi.com mailing lists: > > Hopefully, they will be ostracized by their peers. NBI runs several mailing lists, and I, like any other MLM, deal with bounces in any other manner. About once a month, a user drops off one of our lists and we are unable to contact them to let them know why they have been unsubscribed. If there is no other recourse to contact these people, yes, we post a short message to a Usenet newsgroup with the same general emphasis as the mailing list in question. As far as being "ostracized by our peers", perhaps a little scope should be placed on this policy before anyone decides to start mailbombing us. The ONE SINGLE post which seems to have crawled up Ms. Close's anatomy and died was the FIRST AND ONLY such posting to her own pet newsgroup, rec.crafts.textiles.sewing. We send, on the average, one of these Usenet posts every FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. I can count on my fingers the total number of these posts that have EVER been made to Usenet. The postings average 1KB or less. If this means that I should be "ostracized by my peers" then so be it, but please make sure that you're a peer when you attempt to ostracize me. I pay the bills for nbi.com's hardware and net access. People who run mailing lists from their JOBS (like, for example, sgi.com, and I doubt sincerely that Ms. Close pays for sgi's net access) need not complain to me about it. Any futher questions on this policy may be sent to me, jgeorge@nbi.com (or root@nbi.com) and I will listen to your opinions. Flames, which are ever prevalent in Usenet and on this own list, will be politely ignored. Joe George Systems Administrator, nbi.com -- Joe George (jgeorge@nbi.com, jgeorge@crl.com) |Even I don't always "Oh Bother," said Pooh, and quietly erased his hard disk.|agree with my own |opinions. Nobody (Please don't use 'jgeorge@twiglet.nbi.com' anymore.) |else does either. From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 16:01:47 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA12000 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:46:21 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA11959 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:46:14 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com(165.113.1.25) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma011949; Sat Aug 19 15:45:32 1995 Received: by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA00944 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 19 Aug 1995 14:45:38 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Sat, 19 Aug 95 16:19:34 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: (from jgeorge@localhost) by twiglet.nbi.com (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id PAA18141 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:09:42 -0400 From: Joe George Message-Id: <199508191909.PAA18141@twiglet.nbi.com> Subject: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 15:09:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I sent Mr. Melton e-mail objecting to just a waste of newsgroup bandwidth. > I, personally, run several mailing lists -- e-mail bounces all the time > and if I posted everytime it happened I'd be posting 10-20 times a day! > If every list owner who read rec.crafts.textiles.sewing did so too, the > group would quickly be overrun with "hey, your e-mail is bouncing" > messages. I asked Mr. Melton to deal with such issues privately and told > him the sewing newsgroup was not an appropriate place for such notices. Keep in mind, also, that we have informed you, several times, Ms. Close, that this practice is not "business as usual" at NBI, but such a posting is only made when it is impossible to contact that user in ANY other manner. Your original suggestion to me, to "send them email", is useless when that user can no longer receive Internet email (as is the case with this exact example). > Mr. George wrote me basically (and rudely) saying that they'll > f*ing do what they want, that it's their policy at their site to notify > users unsubscribed from their lists due to faults with e-mail of the > situation using Usenet newsgroups, and that they'll damn well continue to > do so. Mr. George suggests if I, or anyone else, doesn't like this policy > to put nbi.com in the killfile. Indeed I did. Once you start footing the bills for my systems and my net access, then you'll be able to make the rules that govern these systems. However, again, you completely and utterly missed my point when I said that this was NOT a regular occurrence to post about EVERY bounce message we get. Indeed, that is not practical and is indeed a large waste of Usenet resources. I fail to see how ONE Usenet posting can be such a major waste of Usenet resources. I assume that you come down on every MMF poster with the same bile and hatred that you're reserving for me? They're an infinitely larger waste of Usenet resources, and at least it can be argued that our RARE Usenet postings can be to the benefit of at least one Usenet member. Indeed, often several people benefit from these postings, since we do no other advertising of our lists as a general rule, and from each of such notices we've posted, at least several other people have inquired about our lists as a result. > I've put nbi.com in my killfile after seeing the first blatant waste > of newsgroup space. Do any other list managers agree with, or follow, > the same policy as nbi.com? I think this site has a ridiculous attitude > toward the Usenet newsgroups and their proper use, but am I out of touch > with the times (given all the spamming, etc. that goes on now) or am I > on target? I say you're out of touch with the times. We at NBI have been active in Usenet for quite a long time, and we have taken an active role in the creation of quite a number of newsgroups. I think my attitudes toward Usenet in general (which are not relevant at all to your flaming) are quite reasonable. I fail to see how ONE posting to ONE newsgroup can be SERIOUSLY compared to "spamming" Usenet. If you have any idea how this ONE posting to ONE newsgroup can be considered SPAMMING, I'd love to hear it. Joe George -- Joe George (jgeorge@nbi.com, jgeorge@crl.com) |Even I don't always "Oh Bother," said Pooh, and quietly erased his hard disk.|agree with my own |opinions. Nobody (Please don't use 'jgeorge@twiglet.nbi.com' anymore.) |else does either. From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 19 17:00:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14112 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 16:34:21 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14057 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 16:34:14 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma013959; Sat Aug 19 16:33:08 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA11797; Sat, 19 Aug 1995 18:31:42 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508192331.SAA11797@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: munging reply-to headers (digest V4 #154) To: fuzzy@asarian.org (Fuzzy) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 1995 18:31:41 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Fuzzy" at Aug 19, 95 09:18:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 814 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Fuzzy writes: > our users are using pine 3.91 and it asks, if there is a reply-to:, > if it should use the original from:, (private reply), or reply-to:, > (public reply). we find this works fine for our users. in fact they like > that the MUA asks them. If you think that's cool, you ought to see what Pine will do if you *stop* Reply-To munging. When a list reader strikes the R key, the first thing Pine asks is "Reply to all recipients?" Pretty slick, eh? It's a shame that Pine users on lists that munge Reply-To can't take advantage of it. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 10:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA06540 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:54:50 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA06532 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:54:48 -0700 Received: from sgi.com(192.48.153.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006530; Sun Aug 20 09:54:44 1995 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id JAA28835; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:53:18 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id JAA16961; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:53:17 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 09:53:17 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199508201653.JAA16961@lunch.engr.sgi.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-Also-Posted-To: news.admin.net-abuse.misc Subject: Re: Not spam, but an abuse of net resources nonetheless. References: <41512b$8lb@murrow.corp.sgi.com> Organization: Definitely not organized. :-) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe George writes: >close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) writes: > >>This isn't spam, but it simply has to be one of the weirdest abuses of net >>resources I've seen by a postmaster and system adiministrator. Basically >>nbi.com uses Usenet newsgroups to try to contact ONE person whenever that >>person's e-mail bounces from nbi.com mailing lists: > >Being the accused net-abuser and baby-killer, before everyone else jumps on >this bandwagon, I feel the need to indicate that Ms. Close is stating a VERY >IMPORTANT falsehood to make her point. > > [snip] Ms. Close likes to imply that we do this >dozens of times a day, but indeed we do not. It was private e-mail from Mr. George, himself, that gave me impression that this was a regular and frequent thing at nbi.com. I'll quote the particular paragraph below, even though I strongly dislike posting any portion of private e-mail to any newsgroup. However, since I'm accused of being a liar, rather than merely being misinformed, I feel I'd like to defend myself properly. Mr. George wrote to me stating: As a general rule on our mailing lists -- one rule that I don't expect you to be aware of, nor am I interested in your own personal opinions of, BTW -- users who are unsubscribed from a list due to some major fault with email delivery are notified in a Usenet newsgroup with the same basic emphasis as the mailing list, in the likely event that the user reads Usenet newsgroups with similar topics. I'm sorry if you and your "royal We" don't like this policy, but it has worked many times in other newsgroups to contact users who are unable to be reached my email. "As a general rule" says, to me, that it's done on a regular basis, and the "it has worked many times" suggests that it's been done, a lot, before. Are you saying, then, that it's only done in very "exceptional" circumstances, and rarely? What determines these circumstances? How often? What's your definition of "rare"? >This user was no longer able to receive Internet email via Prodigy, so there >was simply no other way to attemp to reach them, except post this short >message in a newsgroup with a similar scope of interest. How about trying postmaster@prodigy.com? I also suggested a "bounces" mailing list, but Mr. George has indicated that this is not practical at his site. >I am sorry, but there is simply no way I can be convinced that ONE posting >to ONE newsgroup, off topic or not, can really honestly be considered "net >abuse." If every list manager felt this way, the newsgroups would be very quickly filled with "your mail is bouncing" messages ad infinitum. >If anyone other than Ms. Close thinks so, I'd love to hear your reasoning. Yes, please do write or post! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 18:00:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA15823 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:38:42 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA15799 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:38:38 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net(192.160.13.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015794; Sun Aug 20 17:38:07 1995 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17743 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:36:55 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA21336 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 20 Aug 1995 17:36:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199508210036.AA21336@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Not spam, but an abuse of net resources nonetheless. In-Reply-To: <199508201653.JAA16961@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 17:36:54 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: > If every list manager felt this way, the newsgroups would be very quickly > filled with "your mail is bouncing" messages ad infinitum. Indeed! There are mailing lists out there with 100K subscribers! Imagine how much bouncing mail they have! Even I, with a "mere" 2K subscribers get hundreds of bounces per week and about 1-3 addresses are removed from my list each week. Imagine if I posted about all of those! Ugh. I'm in the process of rewriting the FAQ for a newsgroup and am putting in netiquette guides (such as "advertisements are generally considered unwelcome in this group"), this example makes me think it wise to put in blurb about the above cited example of off-topic posting before it truely becomes a problem. One ad, private post (which is what these bounce notices are), or other off-topic post in a newsgroup per month or two is not a big deal, however given the growth of usenet readership and propensity for copy-cat activity this could easily become a problem. Better to say at the outset that such off-topic postings are generally considered unwelcome. This may very well go into the revised newsgroup FAQ. If someone who is bounced from a list *really* wants back on, they will find a way to contact the list-owner. Happens to me all the time. ("hey, Michelle, I like changed addresses, but my mail was forwarded and so I forgot to update you, but now I haven't gotten any FATFREE mail in 5 days, maybe my forwarding stopped, did you bump me or something? can I get back on?"). If they care so little about the list that they don't even notice they are not longer getting list mail, why bother to try to contact them by posting an off-topic post to a newsgroup read by tens or hundreds of thousands of people who have no interest in reading about that bounce announcement? If the user reads the textile group and really wants to be on the mailing list, I think they are capable of posting to the group asking about the wherabouts of the mailing list if they can't find the list or list owner's address. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 18:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA16792 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 18:24:57 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id SAA16777 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 18:24:54 -0700 Received: from dorite1.iquest.net(198.70.36.70) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016773; Sun Aug 20 18:24:50 1995 Received: from ts02-ind-3.iquest.net by dorite1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0skLaC-001eW7C; Sun, 20 Aug 95 20:23 EST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 20:23 EST X-Sender: amys@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Joe George From: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Mr. George, You said: >Speaking as the mailing list manager in question, I feel a STRONG need to >clear the air over the policies that we implement here at nbi.com, and I >feel the need also to question why Ms. Close seems to have such a MAJOR bug >up her ass over this whole ordeal. The problem is if you give others the idea that this is an acceptable way to conduct list administration business then the newgroups will truely become useless. If people pay to be on one of your lists, then you should keep a database of names, addresses, and phone numbers to be able to contact them by other means as there is money involved. Otherwise unsubscribe them and forget it. If I have a user from an online service who's mail has bounced, then I generally have a "contact" person from that service to see if they can contact my bouncing subscribers from within the service. If they can't, then they are unsubscribed. I don't sweat it. I've actually called subscribers when mail is bounced (even tho I don't charge for my list) to see if I can help resolve a problem. > >If there is no other recourse to contact these people, yes, we post a short >message to a Usenet newsgroup with the same general emphasis as the mailing >list in question. Has this worked? Or is it just a way to let off steam? >As far as being "ostracized by our peers", perhaps a little scope should be >placed on this policy before anyone decides to start mailbombing us. The >ONE SINGLE post which seems to have crawled up Ms. Close's anatomy and died >was the FIRST AND ONLY such posting to her own pet newsgroup, >rec.crafts.textiles.sewing. Nah, she was offended by your arrogant attitude and perhaps mystified by your lack of being able to see the "big picture" in all this. They probably aren't reading newsgroups if they aren't on the service they subscribed from. So in essence, you are sort of airing your undies for all of us to have to deal with, and we don't really want to put up with it. It's bad enough to have to deal with all of the other people who have discovered the internet after 1 week of owning a computer, much less dealing with people who OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER, but think they should be excused because that's how they feel like dealing with stuff. After all, it's people with attitudes like yours that sometimes make the thought of government regulation attractive. It's really pretty sad. Some people seem to have their heads so far up their own hineys that the only way they realize that their actions should be more self-governed is to be clamped on hard. The only way that's effectively accomplished on the net is to wham you with so much mail that your server ab-ends. > I pay the bills for nbi.com's hardware and net access. I find this comment rather interesting in that there seems to be an air of justification in the perceived level tolerance we should have for you to conduct business. Is this your personal service that you've gotten that you're paying $1000 per month for? I don't get it, lots of us pay for internet access and don't feel like we're any more entitled to use or abuse services. I, for one, think Ms. Close's perception of you was right on target. Amy Stinson Amy Stinson *** amys@iquest.net -coListowner Mknit To subscribe to MKNIT send email to Majordomo@ancor.com In the body put: Subscrib mknit or Subscribe mknit-digest Personal Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys/ Phone (317)889-1721 H (317)885-6589 B (317)885-1741 data/fax From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 20:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA18727 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:33:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA18719 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:33:31 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018716; Sun Aug 20 19:32:44 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id VAA08472 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:33:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199508210233.VAA08472@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Not spam, but an abuse of net resources nonetheless. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:33:08 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: X-YZZY: I hate hand-tweaking replies, like I had to do here! From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 862 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick said... | |I'm in the process of rewriting the FAQ for a newsgroup and am putting |in netiquette guides (such as "advertisements are generally considered |unwelcome in this group"), this example makes me think it wise to put |in blurb about the above cited example of off-topic posting before it |truely becomes a problem. I agree wholeheartedly. |If someone who is bounced from a list *really* wants back on, they |will find a way to contact the list-owner. Happens to me all the |time. Ditto again. If they are clueful enough to get news, they are clueful enough to find their way back. If not, well, maybe they aren't ready for the net yet. I hate to be snotty about that, but it's kind of like I feel about drivers. If they can't figure out how to get in the proper lane ahead of time for a turn, they don't belong on the road. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 20:02:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA19038 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:43:53 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA18880 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 19:43:32 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018851; Sun Aug 20 19:42:36 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id VAA08519; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:42:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199508210242.VAA08519@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list mangler To: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 21:42:51 -0500 (CDT) Cc: jgeorge@nbi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Amy Stinson" at Aug 20, 95 08:23:00 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1552 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson said... |[actually, Joe George said this part] |> I pay the bills for nbi.com's hardware and net access. In the words of annoying caller from my switchboard days, "well, bully rah rah!!!" |I find this comment rather interesting in that there seems to be an air of |justification in the perceived level tolerance we should have for you to |conduct business. Is this your personal service that you've gotten that |you're paying $1000 per month for? I don't get it, lots of us pay for |internet access and don't feel like we're any more entitled to use or abuse |services. In fact, I pay for Schober O'Neal's, and I pay dearly at the moment for the ISDN. I don't think that entitles me to treat the net as my litterbox, but I do think it entitles me to reasonable newsgroups more than it entitles someone else to poop all over it. I run a mailing list that was specifically created to offload tangents from a newsgroup. It's directly related to the newsgroup, and neither I nor any of the members have *ever* bothered the group with details such as Mr. George seems to feel are his divine/constitutional/whatever rights to annoy people with. Not only that, but when I recently went brain-dead and posted something I shouldn't have to a list, I posted a public apology on the list rather than defend my right to be a jerk (which a number of emailed responses assumed I was, so they replied in "kind" - I still was polite and apologized again - I had peed on their doorstep - something someone here seems to just not get!) -Miles From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 20 20:30:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA20908 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:07:22 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA20878 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:07:17 -0700 Received: from torii.triple-i.com(192.94.150.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020870; Sun Aug 20 20:07:09 1995 Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA20873; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:05:52 -0700 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA18027; Sun, 20 Aug 95 20:05:51 PDT From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9508210305.AA18027@siesta> Subject: Re: Not spam, but an abuse of net resources nonetheless. To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 20:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508201653.JAA16961@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Aug 20, 95 09:53:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 961 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close writes: > >If anyone other than Ms. Close thinks so, I'd love to hear your reasoning. > > Yes, please do write or post! I agree that it leans towards abuse of usenet. It's aleady taking such a strong beating from those who don't seem to know better (or don't care, like the Prodigy sex spammer), that we don't need those who should know better (like list managers and postmasters) abusing it. If someone _really_ wants to get back on the list, they'll find a way. Don't you ask them to save the 'welcome' message that tells them how to subscribe and unsubscribe? BTW, Wener Uhrig posted a very well written post regarding this subject to the net-abuse newsgroup.... Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Rep., Information International Inc. +1 617 937 9400 (jeffw@triple-i.com, jeffw@jane.camex.com) "I'll be youah race-cah drivah..." -- Jewel "Pahrk youah race-cah in Havahad Yahd?" -- Anja [smoe] From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 01:01:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA00532 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 00:54:21 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA00508 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 00:54:17 -0700 Received: from ifi.uio.no(129.240.64.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000490; Mon Aug 21 00:53:43 1995 Received: from gjalp.ifi.uio.no (1232@gjalp.ifi.uio.no [129.240.84.2]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:52:07 +0200 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by gjalp.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:52:06 +0200 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:52:06 +0200 Message-Id: <199508210752.8843.gjalp.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ListProcessor 6.0a Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Behold these headers from a list I just joined: (sans Received-by) | From xforms@imageek.york.cuny.edu Mon Aug 21 09:42:01 1995 | Return-Path: | Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:06:34 -0400 | Message-Id: <199508201134.NAA02258@skeletor.ruhr.sub.org> | Errors-To: geek@imageek.york.cuny.edu | Reply-To: xforms@imageek.york.cuny.edu | Originator: xforms@imageek.york.cuny.edu | Sender: xforms@imageek.york.cuny.edu | Precedence: bulk | From: Markus Korth | To: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no | Subject: Read Colormap | X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0a -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas The envelope is wrong, Return-Path is wrong, Reply-To is munged, To is wrong. If Errors-To isn't heeded[1], bounces will go to the list! Before I ask the List manager to get this fixed, I'd like to know if ListProcessor 6.0a can be configured to behave, or if he must install new software. Another thing about ListProcessor is that it thinks envelope address is God, and refuses to add addresses other than what appears in the envelope, and refuses submissions which has an envelope address different from the subscription address. It isn't _wrong_ to do so, this is merely a small nuisance. Kjetil T. [1] I can only find mention of it tht keyword in rfc-1035, which isn't about e-mail. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 01:06:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id AAA00400 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 00:52:22 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA11439 for ; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 14:14:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199508202114.OAA11439@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from darmstadt-22sig.army.mil(140.154.6.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma011435; Sun Aug 20 14:14:31 1995 Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 23:06:09 EDT (0306Z) From: "CPT Larry J. Schauer" To: Joe George cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I thought this was interesting, especially the method of using USENET news to notify subscribers. Personally, when mail starts bouncing to a member, I usually just unsubscribe them (and hope the unsub msg will get to them, but knowing that it probably won't). Sometimes, based on the error, I'll remove the user from ALL the lists at my site (to save the other list owners the hassle). Is it wrong to do this (in general)? I.e. do we, as list managers, OWE our users notification when they drop from lists? I think the problem is compounded by not having another reference to each user (besides e-mail). For example, if we had a phone number, we could call them (Hey, your mail's bouncing!). Unfortunately, in most cases this isn't possible. >If there is no other recourse to contact these people, yes, we post a short >message to a Usenet newsgroup with the same general emphasis as the mailing >list in question. While this is a UNIQUE way of contacting users, it is not a SMART way. First, there's NO guarantee that the user even reads USENET news, let alone that particular newsgroup. For example, I'm subscribed to quite a few mailing lists, but I don't read USENET. Second, posting a msg to USENET that is destined for one user is a waste of B/W. It's the same as me posting a msg saying "Hey Bob, how about a game of golf this Thurs?". As a side note, a few of us tried to get a USENET feed recently. We were told that Army regs prohibit USENET feeds from travelling across the MILNET (our network). Although I'm not sure how true this is, it's the story we got. And this is a shame, for although USENET news has a lot of noise it in, there's still a lot of GOOD STUFF. >We send, on the average, one of these Usenet posts every FOUR TO SIX WEEKS. >I can count on my fingers the total number of these posts that have EVER >been made to Usenet. The postings average 1KB or less. To me this is irrelevant. The key is the tradition it starts. If it becomes accepted for one group to do this, then others will follow. And then USENET will become a gigantic personal e-mail relay. In order to prevent this from happening, we need to police ourselves. That's what made the Internet what it is today---people agreeing to a "standard" of behavior. > >If this means that I should be "ostracized by my peers" then so be it, but >please make sure that you're a peer when you attempt to ostracize me. I pay I'm the sysadmin for 6 mailing lists and the owner of 3 of them. >the bills for nbi.com's hardware and net access. People who run mailing >lists from their JOBS (like, for example, sgi.com, and I doubt sincerely >that Ms. Close pays for sgi's net access) need not complain to me about it. > This is also irrelevant. Since I don't directly pay for my network access, are you saying that I don't have a duty to protect the Govt's money? To me it's like saying to someone "Don't tell me to conserve water unless YOU'RE paying for it, cuz I'M paying for it". Resources are resources, and money is money. Larry Schauer From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 02:31:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA03817 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 02:01:54 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA03786 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 02:01:48 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com(165.113.1.25) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma003735; Mon Aug 21 02:00:53 1995 Received: by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA06724 (5.65c/IDA-1.502 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 21 Aug 1995 01:52:04 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 21 Aug 95 03:49:34 EDT for list-managers@greatcircle.com Received: (from jgeorge@localhost) by twiglet.nbi.com (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id WAA31890 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:52:48 -0400 From: Joe George Message-Id: <199508210252.WAA31890@twiglet.nbi.com> Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 20 Aug 1995 22:52:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Subject: Re: Not spam, but an abuse of net resources nonetheless. > >Being the accused net-abuser and baby-killer, before everyone else jumps on > >this bandwagon, I feel the need to indicate that Ms. Close is stating a VERY > >IMPORTANT falsehood to make her point. > > > > [snip] Ms. Close likes to imply that we do this > >dozens of times a day, but indeed we do not. > > It was private e-mail from Mr. George, himself, that gave me impression > that this was a regular and frequent thing at nbi.com. I'll quote the > particular paragraph below, even though I strongly dislike posting any > portion of private e-mail to any newsgroup. However, since I'm accused of > being a liar, rather than merely being misinformed, I feel I'd like to > defend myself properly. You have been since informed properly, several times, and well before your posting to n.a.n-a.m. Hence it appears to me that you are choosing not to hear my explanations and continue operating under false assumptions. If I am wrong in this conclusion, I apologize, however, again in a message from you today you asked for clarification of this point, and again I sent it. > "As a general rule" says, to me, that it's done on a regular basis, > and the "it has worked many times" suggests that it's been done, a lot, > before. Are you saying, then, that it's only done in very "exceptional" > circumstances, and rarely? What determines these circumstances? > How often? What's your definition of "rare"? I am saying that this has been done, as said before, a total of 10-12 times in the 5 year history of nbi.com. On the average, the last several of such postings have gone out at 4 to 6 week intervals, again as single postings to single newsgroups. 12 times in 5 years is sufficiently infrequent enough to warrant usage of the terms 'rare' and 'exceptional'. I also say this is a 'general rule' of how we run our mailing lists, because it is indeed a policy that we practice. However, that does not mean that the circumstances needed for us to follow this course of action occurs 20 times a day. It hasn't occurred 20 times in 5 years. Almost half that, actually. > If every list manager felt this way, the newsgroups would be very quickly > filled with "your mail is bouncing" messages ad infinitum. True. But they're not. Nor is there any indication that this is going to happen, and until then I will not allow the list managers on this list (and the budding net.police on n.a.n-a.m) to allow me to be labelled as a "net abuser". If this EVER even BEGINS to appear to be a problem on ANY newsgroup I am aware of, we will find a different course of action for our mailing lists. Again, I reiterate though, that such a posting will never again be made in your pet newsgroup, rec.crafts.textiles.sewing. If this is the abuse and the harrassment I have to put up with over one posting, then you can just forget about it. I will, however, continue this policy in the other newsgroups where these postings have been made and well-received. I do hope we can see an end to this ordeal soon. I am continually amazed at the quantity of time and resources that have been expended on trashing me and my systems on this list and on the newsgroups. -- Joe George (jgeorge@nbi.com, jgeorge@crl.com) |Even I don't always "Oh Bother," said Pooh, and quietly erased his hard disk.|agree with my own |opinions. Nobody (Please don't use 'jgeorge@twiglet.nbi.com' anymore.) |else does either. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 07:00:50 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA12072 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 06:50:05 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA12049 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 06:50:01 -0700 Received: from unicorn.swi.com.sg(202.0.71.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma012019; Mon Aug 21 06:49:01 1995 Received: (from mathias@localhost) by unicorn.swi.com.sg (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA16115; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:46:38 +0800 Message-Id: <199508211346.VAA16115@unicorn.swi.com.sg> Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) To: schauer@darmstadt-22sig.army.mil (CPT Larry J. Schauer) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 21:46:37 +0800 (SST) Cc: jgeorge@nbi.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg In-Reply-To: <199508202114.OAA11439@miles.greatcircle.com> from "CPT Larry J. Schauer" at Aug 20, 95 11:06:09 pm From: Mathias.Koerber@swi.com.sg (Mathias Koerber) Organization: SWi, Singapore Disclaimer: My company pays me to work, not speak for them. So there ! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 863 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to CPT Larry J. Schauer | [ the usual problem on what to do with bounces ... lots of discussion ] WOuld it help if a mailing list kept a *second* email address per user, where bounce messages could be sent? Like "Give us the email address of a friend in another company/town/region who we can contact if mail to you bounces" people can then make reciprocal agreements to give each other's addresses and have a backup. mathias -- Mathias Koerber at SWi Tel: +65 / 7780066 x 29 14 Science Park Drive Fax: +65 / 7779401 #04-01 The Maxwell email: Mathias.Koerber@SWi.com.sg Singapore Science Park S'pore 0511 MK * Eifersucht ist eine Leidenschaft, die mit Eifer sucht, was Leiden schafft * From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 07:32:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA13351 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:16:24 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA13289 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:16:15 -0700 From: DWalheim@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com(152.163.172.108) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma013269; Mon Aug 21 07:15:43 1995 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA03637; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:14:33 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:14:33 -0400 Message-ID: <950821101052_59484602@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com cc: jgeorge@nbi.com Subject: Re: Waste of Usenet Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk RE Diane Close's observations and Joe George's response: Ms. Close is entirely on target -- and as others have observed, Mr. George, if your subscribers aren't observant enough to notice that they are no longer receiving your mail, they in all likelihood either won't care to find their way back to you or have cancelled their access account entirely. I think it's a far more standard and responsible practice to try to contact them and if that fails, wait for them to contact YOU, rather than littering Usenet with private posts. By your own admission, it's not just ONE post in ONE newsgroup -- they continue to add up. Do you also feel you're entitled to throw just ONE bag of garbage beside ONE road everytime you can't find a trashcan? Does it make a difference if you're driving a company car when you do it? If we all acted with such irresponsibility, it would be a cluttered world indeed. If you consider the reprimanding posts, such as the Usenet post quoted, advertisement for your list, why not take the time instead to post notices for it in the appropriate places? You might find that these attract more than the handful of people who can currently overlook the venting in your current posts. Debbie Walheim "Law and Order" / CS Lewis Mailing Lists Administrator From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 08:03:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA14389 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:36:43 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA14374 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 07:36:40 -0700 Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014370; Mon Aug 21 07:36:37 1995 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 95 10:36:27 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9508211036.aa13657@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mathias Koerber wrote: >According to CPT Larry J. Schauer >[ the usual problem on what to do with bounces ... lots of discussion ] >WOuld it help if a mailing list kept a *second* email address per user, >where bounce messages could be sent? Sure. If you have the time. I used to keep phone numbers along with the user's name and address if the number was in their subscription request. Of course, that was back when this list had 300 subscribers and 5 msgs/day. Now I've got 330 subscribers to individual msg format and 1452 to digest with traffic of ~25 msgs/day (and this is by no means what I'd consider a "big" list). I don't have the time to look for phone numbers and the like any more. My attitude (hardened netizen that I am) is that if you want to be subscribed to the lists I run, you'll get yourself subscribed. I let mail bounce for a while before I remove users, but then it's unilateral and anonymous. The address gets piped off to a bad-address file, with the date of removal stamped to it and that's that. When/if the user asks to be re-subbed, I send them a note telling them why they were removed and asking them to verify receipt of my mail to them before I put them back on (I've seen a number of situations where users can send mail but not receive it). The idea of writing to newsgroups to notify users that they can't be mailed to sounds like a) a waste of net.resources and b) pissing in the wind. (if their mail don't work, their news probably don't work either, since they no longer have an account to read either from) My $0.02. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 08:32:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA16403 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:29:55 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA16349 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 08:29:47 -0700 Received: from border.com(199.71.190.98) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma016311; Mon Aug 21 08:28:51 1995 Received: by janus.border.com id <5000>; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:34:08 -0400 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) From: "C. Harald Koch" Organization: Border Network Technologies Inc. Phone: +1 416 368 7157 X-Uri: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:27:10 -0400 Message-Id: <95Aug21.113408edt.5000@janus.border.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I find it quite amusing that you've all wasted more time, energy, and bandwidth arguing about this on list-managers than was ever wasted by the postings to UseNet. There are more important things on the 'Net to worry about, folks... -- C. Harald Koch | Border Network Technologies Inc. chk@border.com | Senior System Developer +1 416 368 7157 (voice) | 20 Toronto Street, Suite 400, Toronto ON M5C 2B8 +1 416 368 7789 (fax) | Tary: a unit of intelligence; As in "military". From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 09:33:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18084 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:15:53 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18070 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:15:50 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018043; Mon Aug 21 09:14:51 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA19977 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:13:41 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508211613.KAA19977@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:13:40 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 440 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I find it quite amusing that you've all wasted more time, energy, and > bandwidth arguing about this on list-managers than was ever wasted by the > postings to UseNet. > > There are more important things on the 'Net to worry about, folks... Ah yes, the "People are dying in Bosnia, so who cares if I dump my trash in my neighbor's backyard" excuse. Always a winner, that one. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 09:33:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18364 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:22:01 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA18327 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:21:54 -0700 Received: from sgi.com(192.48.153.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018313; Mon Aug 21 09:21:11 1995 Received: from sgihub.corp.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id JAA18310; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:19:55 -0700 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgihub.corp.sgi.com via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/911001.SGI) id JAA27856; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:04:02 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) id JAA28539; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:04:01 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199508211604.JAA28539@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. To: jgeorge@nbi.com (Joe George) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 09:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508210252.WAA31890@twiglet.nbi.com> from "Joe George" at Aug 20, 95 10:52:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 695 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe George wrote: > You have been since informed properly, several times, and well before your > posting to n.a.n-a.m. Hence it appears to me that you are choosing not to Not true. I posted to n.a.n-a.m. after receiving your first response. It may have taken a while to show up at your site (that's the nature of news distribution), but it was most definitely posted to that newsgroup and to list-managers after your first, initial reply to me and at a time I figured I wasn't going to go any further with this with you. After mulling it over for a while I decided to try some further (and fruitless) dialog with you. -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 10:30:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA21288 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:28:31 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA21255 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:28:26 -0700 Received: from nic.iii.net(199.232.40.3) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021245; Mon Aug 21 10:27:59 1995 Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id NAA03605 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:26:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:26:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199508211726.NAA03605@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe George still doesn't get it: >> If every list manager felt this way, the newsgroups would be very quickly >> filled with "your mail is bouncing" messages ad infinitum. > >True. But they're not. Nor is there any indication that this is going to >happen, and until then I will not allow the list managers on this list (and >the budding net.police on n.a.n-a.m) to allow me to be labelled as a "net >abuser". >If this EVER even BEGINS to appear to be a problem on ANY newsgroup I am >aware of, we will find a different course of action for our mailing lists. It is not a problem at present because there are not many other list managers as cavalier as you are. Your rational here is truly beautiful: "Since others are behaving correctly, my misbehavior is acceptable. If others begin to misbehave in the manner that I do, then I'll cease my misbehavior." >Again, I reiterate though, that such a posting will never again be >made in your pet newsgroup, rec.crafts.textiles.sewing. If this is >the abuse and the harrassment I have to put up with over one posting, >then you can just forget about it. Mission accomplished!! You agree to cease the offensive conduct. >I will, however, continue this policy in the other newsgroups >where these postings have been made and well-received. Have they been "well received" or simply ignored? I doubt you received any "thank you for posting that off topic personal message to group XYZ" messages. >I do hope we can see an end to this ordeal soon. I am continually >amazed at the quantity of time and resources that have been expended >on trashing me and my systems on this list and on the newsgroups. Unfortunately, you perpetuate it by proving to us that only if massive pressure is brought to bear will you change your conduct. You seem not to care that there have been NO other postings to this list supporting your position. The only possible hope for the net (usenet in particular) to remain somewhat useful is for us to police ourselves and our behavior and bring pressure to bear on those, like you, who refuse to behave unless harrassed. From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 11:06:59 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA22299 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:53:33 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA22247 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 10:53:27 -0700 Received: from loiosh.kei.com(192.88.144.32) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022200; Mon Aug 21 10:52:27 1995 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) id NAA04052; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:51:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199508211751.NAA04052@loiosh.kei.com> To: Joe George Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199508191909.PAA18141@twiglet.nbi.com> References: <199508191909.PAA18141@twiglet.nbi.com> X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk JG> == Joe George JG> I fail to see how ONE Usenet posting can be such a major waste of JG> Usenet resources. The same way ONE "un*ub*cribe" message to a mailing list can be such a major waste of list resources. "Monkey see, monkey do." It's not the first one that is the problem. It's not the second one. It's the third, fourth, tenth, twentieth...but the first one "legitimizes" the act, or prompts others to emulate it, and that's why some list owners [ob-list-managers] are so quick to react by telling *the whole list* "no, that won't work, you have to mail list-REQUEST@list.host". Some even take it so far as to refuse to unsubscribe people who mail to the list *until* they mail to list-request. (I happen to share this view; don't reward bad behavior.) You mention the infamous Make Money Fast. It seems that now that discouragement via cancellation has become so much more swift and sure, that the "chain" of credulous and innumerate morons has been somewhat broken, or at least the propagation has slowed down. MMF is also a "monkey see, monkey do" situation in many cases. Yes, I think it is inappropriate to use USENET groups to contact a lost mailing list subscriber. As others have said, if they really care about the list they'll find you again; they found you the first time, after all. And if they don't, then they shouldn't be on the list anyway. Going out of your way to coddle dysfunctional software, or dysfunctional users, is, well, dysfunctional. -- Christopher Davis * * 512/03829F89 = D7 C9 A7 80 8C 84 3F B2 27 E1 48 61 BF FC 18 B4 1024/66CB73DD = 46 8E FD F5 12 8E 13 4C 2C 8A 92 A3 B0 D5 2A 5E [ Public keys available by finger, WWW, or keyserver ] From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 11:38:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA22810 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:04:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA22774 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:04:29 -0700 Received: from sgi.com(192.48.153.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022762; Mon Aug 21 11:03:49 1995 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id LAA13927; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:02:40 -0700 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950413.SGI.8.6.12/911001.SGI) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id LAA01228; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:02:32 -0700 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199508211802.LAA01228@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: And on to something else... (was re: not spam, and not...) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:02:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199508211726.NAA03605@nic.iii.net> from "Ken Bourbeau" at Aug 21, 95 01:26:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1685 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken Bourbeau wrote: > Joe George still doesn't get it: > >Again, I reiterate though, that such a posting will never again be > >made in your pet newsgroup, rec.crafts.textiles.sewing. > > Mission accomplished!! You agree to cease the offensive conduct. Yup! The people in other newsgroups he "hits" can deal with it at that time. He's obviously not going to change his mind. So let's move on. Are there any good guidelines for the mentioning or advertising of one mailing list on another? I'm usually pretty free and loose with this on my lists, allowing members to post whatever they feel is relevant and interesting, including pointers to other lists. My dilemma is this: one of my lists changed to a book review only list, where all that's supposed to be submitted are reviews of books. One of the list members also runs a "book of the month" review list where the members review and discuss a set list of titles during that particular month. Previously, he was allowed to advertise his list and the upcoming suggested titles on my list (back when were were a full discussion list). He recently approached me to ask if he could continue to advertise in this manner on my list. Now that we're supposed to be a review list, I'm not sure what to do. I realize that this is a minor issue, and that I could just make an arbitrarly ruling, but I'm trying to set up a consistent policy here, so I'd like some input from others about what they'd do. I'd be happy to summarize the ultimate outcome to the list, if respondents would like to write me via private e-mail only. Thanks! -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 12:02:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA25226 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:58:46 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA25210 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:58:43 -0700 Received: from netcom6.netcom.com(192.100.81.114) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma025206; Mon Aug 21 11:58:31 1995 Received: by netcom6.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id LAA25713; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:54:59 -0700 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Dick Moores X-Sender: rdm@netcom6 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Where to get help for LISTPROC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Dick Moores wrote: > Where do I go to get answers to questions that aren't covered in the docs > available to users of LISTPROC? Is there a list? > > Thanks > > Dick Moores rdm@netcom.com I've had a couple of replies. The list is unix-listproc at listproc@avs.com Thank you! Dick Moores rdm@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 21 14:03:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA02071 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:42:16 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA01991 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 13:42:06 -0700 Received: from loiosh.kei.com(192.88.144.32) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma001975; Mon Aug 21 13:41:39 1995 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) id QAA04326; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 16:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 16:40:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199508212040.QAA04326@loiosh.kei.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: and speaking of dysfunctional software... X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got a bounce message for my last mailing to list-managers (ironically enough, one complaining about dysfunction in mailer software and/or its users). It seems that some product which calls itself (in the Received: header) "IMA Internet Exchange v1.04" is up-to-date enough to generate error messages using MIME format, but fails to understand SMTP enough to send bounce messages to the From: header address instead of the SMTP envelope address (see RFC 821 and RFC 1123 section 5.3.3). It also doesn't appear to have sent the bounce message with a null return path (which is a MUST in RFC 1123 5.3.3). It seems to be some sort of cc:Mail gateway. Either the gateway or cc:Mail also chopped off the Subject: header. I have BCC:ed the apparent administrator address for this gateway so as to allow them to contact the vendor, preferably with a weapon of some sort. -- Christopher Davis * * 512/03829F89 = D7 C9 A7 80 8C 84 3F B2 27 E1 48 61 BF FC 18 B4 1024/66CB73DD = 46 8E FD F5 12 8E 13 4C 2C 8A 92 A3 B0 D5 2A 5E [ Public keys available by finger, WWW, or keyserver ] From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 00:00:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA08023 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:30:55 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA07994 for ; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 23:30:50 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma007855; Mon Aug 21 23:29:49 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA02531 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:28:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508220628.BAA02531@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Re: Clobbering "Reply-To" in Outgoing Mail To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:28:15 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: from "David W. Tamkin" at Aug 18, 95 10:42:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1688 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David W. Tamkin writes: > (Note: I am one of the people who tried to talk Chip out of munging before he > saw the light on his own. Well...it was a little more than an independant discovery. As I mentioned in the note, broadcasting a personal reply to one of my own lists was the catalyst. The *polite* and *reasoned* comments from you and others had a lot to do with realizing why it ought to change. In fact, because of the way I arrived at my position on the issue, I toned portions of the original rhetoric while editing the note. (I've even renamed the note reply-to-harmful.html instead of -evil, although the old name continues to be supported in the interim.) I don't think it is productive making people defensive over this issue. > That said, the lists I run offer default public > reply as a discouraged option and one has a sublist which, by its nature, > justifies default public replies, but as a general rule I am very strongly > in favor of default private replies.) I think there probably are *specialized* cases that justify it. I also think offering it as a depreciated option, if you can afford the administrative overhead, is acceptable. I would hope, however, that folks are encouraged to learn about their mailer and select the unmunged presentation when possible. After all, the guy (or gal) who selects the munged subscription out of ignorance could become a list administrator tomorrow. -- Chip Rosenthal Old men sing about their dreams. Women laugh and Unicom Systems Development children scream. And the band keeps playin' on. For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 05:00:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA18400 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 04:44:15 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA18377 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 04:44:12 -0700 Received: from bbfm.di.com(204.74.64.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018367; Tue Aug 22 04:43:18 1995 Received: from win-today.dsc.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.13) with SMTP id EAA11458 for on Tue, 22 Aug 1995 04:41:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 04:41:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Todd Day Subject: Are we missing the point? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think most of the arguments for/against Reply-To munging are missing the point of running a mailing list: to promote vigorous discussion of a particular topic among a large amount of people. If you find that your topic is very technical, it might be best for your list to default public replies using Reply-To. If you find your topic leads to a more one-on-one type of spin-off discussions, then leaving the headers intact might be the best choice. I run two technical lists, so I've chosen to munge the Reply-To. However, I do agree with Chip's point about losing personal author address info, so I move any Reply-To: from the author into the From: line. I make the assumption that if the author included a Reply-To:, it is probably because he/she knows the From: line gets destroyed by some mailer in the path. I've run like this for quite some time and it hasn't proved to be a problem. In other words, no one on my list nor any site admins have ever complained about it. I take that as a sign of good behavior, regardless of what any RFC has to say about it. After all, it is only an email list. Side note: Only real problem with adding Reply-To's is sometimes broken mail gateways, particularly cc:Mail (ugh!), seem to barf a bounce message followed by the entire text of the list message right into your submission address! Ouch! Ya' gotta watch your lists carefully for this behavior. ********** I must take exception to the attitude of "the hell with people behind broken gateways" and "don't coddle those with broken mailers". This attitude does not further communication. Most of those with broken mailers seem to be in countries that have just recently acknowledged the western world exists. We can't just shut these people out... they are probably very lucky to just have email access, let alone full WWW browsing capability. They might not even speak English very well and spend hours just composing a single message. You are not going to be able to explain to them the finer points of a properly administered site. No, don't take it out on the user. If you find sites with broken software, offer to help out the admin at that site. Perhaps the admin is a new guy just getting his feet wet. Properly worded and helpful messages can ensure the admin will follow the "true path". ********** One last, unrelated comment. I've found this list to be a great help not only from a technical standpoint, but also on a social/psychological level as well. I like hearing about others' problems with their lists and how they've come to deal with it, and hearing about how "communities" have developed around their lists. List managing can be a lonely job. However, I'm a bit perplexed at seeing the same kind of behavior on this list that seems to be universally condemned by lists managers. Namely, flaming, religious wars, and outright personal attacks. I'd always thought of this group of people as the "adults" of the Internet, educating clueless newbies and ensuring the survival of the "spirit of the net". Let's remember that *all* of us have invested a lot of our own personal time in our corner of the net and that we may have styles of operation that differ from each other, but are equally valid. -todd- From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 06:00:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA19911 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:35:28 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA19903 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:35:26 -0700 Received: from usis.com(199.171.178.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019894; Tue Aug 22 05:34:46 1995 Received: from siberia.usis.com (siberia.usis.com [199.171.178.71]) by usis.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA03198 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 07:29:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199508221229.HAA03198@usis.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Miss Demeanor" Organization: usis To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 07:24:47 +0000 Subject: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? Reply-to: siberia@usis.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is anyone else experiencing problems with AOL list members receiving mail? I'm getting feedback from AOL list members that they have not had any mail for several days. FYI, this has affected all of my lists as well as *many* other lists that I am a member of. Any ideas? Namaste' Kimberly Long siberia@usis.com What a long strange trip it's been. )O( RIP Jerry Garcia 1942 - 1995 From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 06:01:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA20351 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:49:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA20288 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:49:38 -0700 Received: from queernet.queernet.org(140.174.78.68) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma020156; Tue Aug 22 05:49:07 1995 Received: from attitude.queernet.org by queernet.queernet.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0skscI-000D6LC; Tue, 22 Aug 95 05:39 PDT Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 05:39 PDT X-Sender: rogerk@queernet.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Todd Day From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) Subject: Re: Are we missing the point? Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I think most of the arguments for/against Reply-To munging are >missing the point of running a mailing list: to promote vigorous >discussion of a particular topic among a large amount of people. >If you find that your topic is very technical, it might be best >for your list to default public replies using Reply-To. On what planet is that "THE point of running a mailing list"? Where I come from, it is generally the disseminiation of information, or discussion of a topic. How vigorous that discussion is, or how many people participate, is not a factor. High traffic is never a goal! You seem to be losing sight of the value of chewing up as *little* bandwidth as possible. In general, *especially* on technical lists, it is often reasonable that discussion, solutions, etc. are sent to the originator, who summarizes for the whole membership. --- ROGER B.A. KLORESE rogerk@QueerNet.ORG 2215-R Market Street #576 San Francisco, CA 94114 +1 415 ALL-ARFF "There is only one real blasphemy -- the refusal of joy!" -- Paul Rudnick From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 06:03:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA19857 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:32:30 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id FAA19840 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:32:26 -0700 Received: from news5.crl.com(165.113.1.25) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma019830; Tue Aug 22 05:31:32 1995 Received: by news5.crl.com with UUCP id AA11393 (5.65c/IDA-1.502); Tue, 22 Aug 1995 05:24:12 -0700 Received: by nbi.com (1.65/waf) via UUCP; Mon, 21 Aug 95 23:51:43 EDT Received: (from jgeorge@localhost) by twiglet.nbi.com (8.7.Beta.11/8.7.Beta.11) id UAA08407; Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:10:32 -0400 From: Joe George Message-Id: <199508220010.UAA08407@twiglet.nbi.com> Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 1995 20:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199508211604.JAA28539@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Aug 21, 95 09:03:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > You have been since informed properly, several times, and well before your > > posting to n.a.n-a.m. Hence it appears to me that you are choosing not to > > Not true. I posted to n.a.n-a.m. after receiving your first response. It > may have taken a while to show up at your site (that's the nature of news > distribution), but it was most definitely posted to that newsgroup and to > list-managers after your first, initial reply to me and at a time I > figured I wasn't going to go any further with this with you. After > mulling it over for a while I decided to try some further (and fruitless) > dialog with you. I stand corrected, and I publicly apologize for my incorrect information. May I assume, now, that you are sufficiently clear on the details of this issue, or is any further clarification necessary so you might soon stop plastering my name all over creation? I really don't care -- and I'm sorry if that offends anyone -- if the list admins of the world disagree with my basis for these postings. I'm not asking for everyone to agree with me -- I'm not even asking everyone to disagree with me, that was the purpose of your postings all over creation, not mine. If anyone is so concerned with keeping score, you can chalk up a "bully rah rah" for Ms. Close, as I've said before, after this one incident in her own cherished newsgroup, we will not ever commit such a heinous crime ever again. However, this is indeed only half a point in her favor, since I intend to continue this horrible abusive behaviour in the other newsgroup where such previous violent abuses of Usenet have been quite well-received. Joe -- Joe George (jgeorge@nbi.com, jgeorge@crl.com) |Even I don't always "Oh Bother," said Pooh, and quietly erased his hard disk.|agree with my own |opinions. Nobody (Please don't use 'jgeorge@twiglet.nbi.com' anymore.) |else does either. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 06:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:26:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21529 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:26:49 -0700 Received: from fsm-1.pica.army.mil(129.139.164.101) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021525; Tue Aug 22 06:25:54 1995 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 9:25:52 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. Organization: Electric Armts Div, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9508220925.aa24750@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >However, this is indeed only half a point in her favor, since I intend to >continue this horrible abusive behaviour in the other newsgroup where such >previous violent abuses of Usenet have been quite well-received. That's really too bad. The concensus is that it's bad behaviour, and I think if you'd ask the same question on the usenet admin groups, you'd get the same response. Everybody wants to be a cyberspace cowboy, I guess. Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 06:31:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21210 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:16:51 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA21178 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:16:46 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com(152.163.172.53) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma021170; Tue Aug 22 06:16:08 1995 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA18061; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:15:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:15:03 -0400 Message-ID: <950822091502_60338706@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: siberia@usis.com, List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-08-22 09:05:02 EDT, siberia@usis.com (Miss Demeanor) writes: >Is anyone else experiencing problems with AOL list members receiving >mail? We experienced a runaway sendmail last week which caused some problems with our mail system (and my workstation in particular). I believe that the problem has been fixed, and I suspect it may be the cause of the non-delivery problems we have recently started receiving. Our mail system admins are investigating too see what is going on. My apologies for not posting earlier, but I have been bust trying to catch up from the loads of mail that got dumped into my system yesterday. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 07:00:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA22672 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:48:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA22632 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 06:48:18 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu(146.186.130.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma022621; Tue Aug 22 06:47:31 1995 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA20196 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:46:25 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA01301 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:46:24 -0400 Message-Id: <199508221346.JAA01301@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are we missing the point? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Aug 1995 04:41:45 PDT." <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com> References: <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:46:23 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com>, Todd Day writes: >I think most of the arguments for/against Reply-To munging are >missing the point of running a mailing list: to promote vigorous >discussion of a particular topic among a large amount of people. I don't think anyone here is missing the point. We all realize what mailing lists are for and why we use them. The point is there is a difference between promoting discussion and enforcing discussion. In the latter case (with a Reply-To) it makes it harder for a person who _wants_ to reply personally to someone. It ends up either stifling legitimate private confersations, or promoting the sending accidental private replys to the list. The point is, if someone wants to respond to the list, let them respond to the list. If they want to respond privately, let them respond privately. Don't make the decision for them. --Dave From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 08:01:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA23983 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 07:34:26 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA23958 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 07:34:22 -0700 Received: from loiosh.kei.com(192.88.144.32) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma023948; Tue Aug 22 07:33:56 1995 Received: (from ckd@localhost) by loiosh.kei.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) id KAA05362; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:32:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Davis Message-Id: <199508221432.KAA05362@loiosh.kei.com> To: Todd Day Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are we missing the point? In-Reply-To: <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com> References: <199508221141.EAA11458@bbfm.di.com> X-Attribution: ckd Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk TD> == Todd Day TD> I must take exception to the attitude of "the hell with people behind TD> broken gateways" and "don't coddle those with broken mailers". This TD> attitude does not further communication. Most of those with broken TD> mailers seem to be in countries that have just recently acknowledged TD> the western world exists. We can't just shut these people out... TD> they are probably very lucky to just have email access, let alone TD> full WWW browsing capability. They might not even speak English TD> very well and spend hours just composing a single message. You are TD> not going to be able to explain to them the finer points of a properly TD> administered site. TD> No, don't take it out on the user. If you find sites with broken TD> software, offer to help out the admin at that site. Perhaps the TD> admin is a new guy just getting his feet wet. Properly worded and TD> helpful messages can ensure the admin will follow the "true path". I do that. However, sometimes the admin's hands are tied (legacy LAN email systems), or they won't listen, or you can't even get in touch with them because not even "postmaster" works. And as for most of the broken mailers being outside the US, well, my experience differs from yours. Most of the really terribly broken sites I see are *not* outside the US; they're sites *in* the US running things like Microsoft Mail or cc:Mail or QuickMail. The gateway software, in many cases, looks like it was built using a description of SMTP written by a 14-year-old who discovered how to forge email messages (rather than by reference to the RFC) and gratuitously terminates perfectly valid SMTP sessions simply because they don't fit the preconceived sequence of commands (try sending "EHLO" to an older MS-Mail gateway sometime). The underlying mail system usually has no concept of the Internet, has hard-coded limits on header lines (such as a 20-character Subject), gateways only one of the addresses associated with the message in as the "From" address (usually the wrong one, such as systems that use the SMTP envelope--causing the "reply" icon to generate mail to owner-listname), and in at least one case I've seen requires mail to come in from the Internet before outgoing mail can be sent to that address (causing the account-holder's daughter to forge mail from anyone the account-holder wants to send email to). *Within* the US, there are choices. If your work environment does not or cannot supply a usable mail system, and the mailing list is important to you, you can subscribe via AOL or CompuServe or Prodigy or Netcom or Microsoft Network or the WELL or the World or Panix or Interramp or Pipeline or Delphi or BIX or GEnie. *Outside* the US, they're usually using free or cheap software of some sort, not $1000 MS-Mail gateways or baroque X.400 systems, and the free stuff usually works properly with the free standards described in the RFCs. Stuff like Waffle, or Linux, or FreeBSD...and if they have problems configuring sendmail to Do The Right Thing, I'm more than happy to help, even if my Spanish is rusty or my Russian limited to "Borjemoi" :) Randy Bush has been very, very active in getting various countries "on net"; I know he helps them get their mail right. I think he even does some mailing list management [ob-list-managers :-]. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 09:00:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26025 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 08:44:34 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA26017 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 08:44:32 -0700 Received: from swcp.com(198.59.115.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma026013; Tue Aug 22 08:44:22 1995 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA26845 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:43:16 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508221543.JAA26845@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: not spam, and not net abuse either. To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 09:43:15 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 454 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd like to say that after some consideration, I actually *agree* with Joe George's technique of posting to Usenet when he drops someone from his mailing lists. In that spirit, I plan to start notifying the mailing lists at nbi.com whenever I drop anyone from any of *my* lists, on the off chance that they might in fact be on one of the nbi.com lists as well. Thanks for this grat idea, Joe! -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 10:32:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29998 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:08:23 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA29948 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:08:15 -0700 Received: from bbfm.di.com(204.74.64.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma029935; Tue Aug 22 10:07:52 1995 Received: from win-today.dsc.com by bbfm.di.com (8.6.10/TD-1.13) with SMTP id KAA14383 for on Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:06:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:06:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199508221706.KAA14383@bbfm.di.com> X-Sender: today@mail.di.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Todd Day Subject: Re: Are we missing the point? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple people have written me, saying >On what planet is that "THE point of running a mailing list"? Well, okay, sorry, guess I should have thought about the use of the word "vigorous". I probably should have used the word "healthy" or something like that. It was late - my fault. I certainly didn't mean to imply that an email list should have high traffic. Rephrasing... >to promote healthy >discussion of a particular topic among a large amount of people I hope I'm not too far off base now, or I'm in big trouble! :-) My main point was that we shouldn't worry so much about minor technical details of someone's list implementation if it is working for them *and* is not causing other people administration problems *and* is not going to cause problems in the future. I was just expressing my concern over what I saw as basically a religious war over the sanctity of the Reply-To header. On the net, it seems there is always more than three right ways to do anything. -todd- From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 11:00:48 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA02270 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:49:45 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA02248 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 10:49:41 -0700 Received: from dorite1.iquest.net(198.70.36.70) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma002221; Tue Aug 22 10:48:50 1995 Received: from ts02-ind-12.iquest.net by dorite1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0sku63-001eIvC; Tue, 22 Aug 95 09:14 EST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 09:14 EST X-Sender: amys@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PMDAtropos@aol.com From: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? Cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >In a message dated 95-08-22 09:05:02 EDT, siberia@usis.com (Miss Demeanor) >writes: > >>Is anyone else experiencing problems with AOL list members receiving >>mail? Yes. Over the weekend several of my digest people started complaining about receiving the digests and a mime file containing the digest. They were told by AOL that it was the fault of my list (nothing has been altered in the sendmail scripts) Another person who receives 3 list digests that aren't all majordomo said ALL her digests are coming like that. Then they said they'd look into it. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 11:30:36 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA03635 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:21:48 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA03627 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 11:21:46 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com(152.163.172.53) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma003617; Tue Aug 22 11:20:51 1995 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA07351; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:19:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:19:46 -0400 Message-ID: <950822141944_80581536@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: amys@iquest.net cc: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-08-22 13:48:51 EDT, amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) writes: >Yes. Over the weekend several of my digest people started complaining about >receiving the digests and a mime file containing the digest. Hm, this is different from the reports I've seen (which have been "no mail received" or "few pieces of mail received"). Last week, AOL's mail system was changed to support MIME attachments (incoming and outgoing). Additionally, large mail (text over 25k) is now received in one chunk -- with the first 25k of the message in the body and the entire message as the attachment -- instead of being broken up serially into 25k pieces. >They were told by AOL that it was the fault of my list (nothing has been >altered in the sendmail scripts) Do you know who told them this? (Other than "someone who doesn't have a grasp of what is going on", that is) -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 14:30:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14004 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:29:12 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA13953; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:29:04 -0700 Received: from aspen.plexus.com(192.217.104.193) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma013938; Tue Aug 22 14:28:39 1995 Received: from cuckoo.pd.tgi.plexus.com (cuckoo.pd.tgi.plexus.com [192.217.104.40]) by aspen.plexus.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA22268; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:27:27 -0500 Received: by cuckoo.pd.tgi.plexus.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA10742; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:27:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:27:21 -0500 (CDT) From: Chuck Tomasi X-Sender: ctomasi@cuckoo.pd.tgi.plexus.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Microsoft SMTP gateway problems (resolved) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm happy to say that the problems I reported (and sought help on) a few weeks ago have been cleared up. It seems that whenever someone other than the list owner would generate mail it would appear as thought it was from the list owner (e.g. chuck.tomasi) to my MS-Mail users because the MS SMTP gateway didn't understand the RFC 822 header properly. Our network admin person has recently installed the latest version (number unknown) of the SMTP gateway and although we've only run a minor set of tests, it appears as though MS-Mail users will now see the true sender of any message to any list. If you are using Microsoft SMTP gateway and have run into this problem you may want to investigate upgrading as a solution. If you need more information about the version numbers let me know and I'll see what I can do to obtain more info. I was rather excited that this finally works and wanted to waste no time in letter others know about it. Chuck Tomasi // chuck.tomasi@plexus.com Systems Administrator // http://www.edsi.org/~ctomasi/ Technology Group Inc. // MiSTie#2356 "It's only in retrospect that we are able to determine who is a visionary and who is an idiot" -- Chuck Tomasi, 1995 From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 15:04:32 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA15276 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:54:39 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA15247 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:54:34 -0700 Received: from vnet.ibm.com(199.171.26.4) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma015238; Tue Aug 22 14:53:59 1995 Received: from SJFEVMX by VNET.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5104; Tue, 22 Aug 95 17:52:50 EDT X-Mailer: IPERNOTE 5.14 Message-ID: <1995Aug22.145302.28395@vnet.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 14:53:02 PDT Reply-To: holford@VNET.IBM.COM From: "G. Holford" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: mail-to-news Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Recently, the mail-to-news gateway I've been using to post to usenet news groups seems to have gone away. Can anyone suggest a reliable gateway that supports a good assortment of the alt.xxx news groups? Can anyone suggest an appropriate news group or e-mail list that would be a good source of information on mail-to-news gateways? G. Holford From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 15:11:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:45:09 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14505 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 14:45:04 -0700 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com(192.147.45.5) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma014488; Tue Aug 22 14:44:26 1995 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA30381; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 21:41:39 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ae21817; 22 Aug 95 21:39 WET Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 16:38 EST From: "Curt A. Monash" <0006058685@mcimail.com> To: List Managers Subject: Big lists? Message-Id: <93950822213839/0006058685NA4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been lurking here for a while, considering starting my own list, and generally watching cyber-business. I'm on half a dozen lists or so, none bigger than 6,000 names, I think. Anyhow, my question is: How big are the biggest lists? What is their nature? I recently saw a reference (here, I think, but I don't have a quote) to lists of 100,000 circulation. Are there really a lot of those? Curt Monash Editor Monash Software Letter cmonash@mcimail.com He either fears his fate too much Or his desserts are small Who dares not put it to the touch To win or lose it all. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 16:30:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA18424 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:21:19 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA18405 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 16:21:16 -0700 Received: from nic.state.mn.us(156.98.1.1) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma018391; Tue Aug 22 16:20:17 1995 Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) id SAA05940; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:19:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 18:19:18 -0500 (CDT) From: "S Clift (North Star)" X-Sender: nstar@nic To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Preventing Mail Loops, Other In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Since I did not receive any responses I assume that this been posted to the wrong list? If anyone has any suggestions, the help would be appreciated. Thank you. Steven Clift nstar@nic.state.mn.us On Thu, 17 Aug 1995, S Clift (North Star) wrote: > In a few weeks the person who set-up majordomo and has served as list > administrator will be leaving (he was on a summer contract). I assume > his responsibilities will be shifted, but I need to make some changes > ASAP to prevent a mail loop from developing on the two unmoderated lists > that I own. How do I (or does list adminstrator have to) change the > Reply-To section from the the list to the original sender. We had > someone go on vaction, activate their auto-reply and boom - major > embarrassment. > > Also, I get this "bounce" message periodically. What is messed up? > > Thanks, > Steven Clift > State of Minnesota > nstar@nic.state.mn.us > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:05 -0500 > From: Mail Delivery Subsystem > To: owner-gov-net@nic > Subject: Returned mail: aliasing/forwarding loop broken > > The original message was received at Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:04 -0500 > from majordom@localhost > > ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- > bounces-outgoing (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > Message delivered to mailing list bounces-outgoing > 554 bounces-outgoing... aliasing/forwarding loop broken > > ----- Original message follows ----- > Return-Path: > Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) > id AAA03364; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:04 -0500 > Received: by nic.state.mn.us (8.6.12/) > id AAA03358; Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:02 -0500 > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 00:00:02 -0500 > Message-Id: <199508170500.AAA03358@nic.state.mn.us> > To: Bounces@nic.state.mn.us > From: nobody@nic.state.mn.us > Subject: Bouncing email from mailing lists at nic.state.mn.us > Reply-To: Majordomo@nic.state.mn.us > Sender: owner-gov-net@nic.state.mn.us > Precedence: bulk > > Your address has been moved to Bounces@nic.state.mn.us > from some other mailing list at nic.state.mn.us > because email to you was bouncing. > > Here are the addresses currently on Bounces@nic.state.mn.us > so that you can see which of your addresses is among them. > The comment for each address shows the date it was moved, > and the first list it was removed from. If you were on > multiple lists here, you may have been removed from them > as well, but only the first list you were removed from > will show up in the comment below. > > > If the problem has been fixed, you can get off of > Bounces and back on to the other list by sending the > following to Majordomo@nic.state.mn.us: > > subscribe your_list > unsubscribe bounces > > To subscribe or unsubscribe an address other than where you're > sending the command from, append the other address to the end > of the "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" command (for example, > "subscribe your_list foo@bar.com"). > > You'll need to access the mailing list archives if you want to catch > up on whatever you missed while you were off the main list. > > If you don't want to keep getting these reminders every day, but > don't want to resubscribe to the list, send just the "unsubscribe" > command shown above. > > If you need to contact a human being regarding this, send a message > to Majordomo-Owner@nic.state.mn.us. > > > From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 19:31:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00268 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:04:18 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA00247 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:04:15 -0700 Received: from junior.wariat.org(192.147.147.15) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma000241; Tue Aug 22 19:03:35 1995 Received: (from mkidd@localhost) by junior.wariat.org (8.6.10/8.6.10) id WAA10123; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:02:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:02:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Monee C. Kidd" X-Sender: mkidd@junior.wariat.org To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Unauthorized copying of posts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a problem of a different sort. I maintain a read only list where I post a recipe archive once a month. These recipes are gathered from a couple of Usenet newsgroups, the main one being rec.food.chocolate. I have been doing this since January, and so far, I have compiled over 350 recipes. No small task... A bout a week or so ago, I noticed in r.f.choc, someone has begun a new web site pertaining to chocolate. The first thing I saw when I went there was references to my list, with all my words lifted verbatim from my list info post. Which I didn't mind so much. Until I found a whole section of this site is dedicated to my recipes. The site owner, tho he did credit me for putting together the archives, is taking all my work and dumping it onto his pages, without having bothered to tell me, let alone ask my permission. My question is this: I need to write this person a note, if for no other reason than to tell him to remove the link to send mail to my list - since it's a moderated list I'm getting spammed with bounced messages now. But I want to say something also about my displeasure with him using my work without asking permission. I know, since the posts were from Usenet to begin with, I don't own a copywrite on the material or anything, but he's taken my formatting, and my hard work, and I don't appreciate that. Does anyone out there have experience with copies of their list digests or other such information from their lists showing up in other places on the net that could give me some advice here? -- If you always do what you always have, ~*~ you'll always get what you've always had. ~*~*~*~*~*~ ~*~*~*~*~*~ Monee C. Kidd ~ ChocoMistress ~*~ mkidd@apk.net From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 22:30:43 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04516 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:28:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04489 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:28:55 -0700 Received: from relay2.uu.net(192.48.96.7) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma004484; Tue Aug 22 22:28:48 1995 Received: from neon.k9.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzdzh18371; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:26:44 -0400 Received: by neon.k9.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.7) id ; Tue, 22 Aug 95 22:12 WET DST Message-Id: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 95 22:12 WET DST From: jeff@neon.k9.com (Jeff Beadles) To: mkidd@apk.net ("Monee C. Kidd") Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts Reply-To: jeff@k9.com (Jeff Beadles) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk What I do, is add a compilation copyright to my digests. I don't copyright the individual articles in the digests, but I do copyright the collection of articles that make up a digest. I'm pretty sure that this is legally binding. -Jeff -- Jeff Beadles jeff@k9.com From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 23:00:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04846 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:58:58 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04830 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:58:55 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma004826; Tue Aug 22 22:58:54 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id WAA06812; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:38:58 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006808; Tue Aug 22 22:38:18 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA23216 for List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:49:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199508230449.XAA23216@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:49:24 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 351 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amy Stinson said... | |Yes. Over the weekend several of my digest people started complaining about |receiving the digests and a mime file containing the digest. Am I the only one who thinks it's braindead that some (all?) sendmails now ship with the default for bounces being mime - even when the original wasn't mime? Talk about rewrite screwups! From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 22 23:30:41 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id XAA05271 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:00:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04854 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:59:55 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaa04826; Tue Aug 22 22:58:55 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id WAA06811; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 22:38:58 -0700 Received: from wildride.zilker.net(198.252.182.142) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id smaa06808; Tue Aug 22 22:38:20 1995 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA23238; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:52:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199508230452.XAA23238@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Are we missing the point? To: ckd@loiosh.kei.com (Christopher Davis) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 23:52:39 -0500 (CDT) Cc: today@di.com, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508221432.KAA05362@loiosh.kei.com> from "Christopher Davis" at Aug 22, 95 10:32:39 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 455 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Christopher Davis said... | |Most of the really terribly broken sites I see are *not* outside the US; |they're sites *in* the US running things like Microsoft Mail or cc:Mail or |QuickMail. In general, this has been my experience as well; lately, most of the foulups have still been in the USA; they've just been MIS foulups on unix systems while overhauling or reconfiguring the corporate or site network configurations (4 sites in less than 4 months). From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 23 02:30:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA03305 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:13:54 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id CAA03282 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 02:13:41 -0700 Received: from chinacat.unicom.com(192.108.105.34) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma003263; Wed Aug 23 02:12:36 1995 Received: (from chip@localhost) by chinacat.unicom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA09392 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:59:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Chip Rosenthal Message-Id: <199508230059.TAA09392@chinacat.unicom.com> Subject: Addison Snell email spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (The List-Managers Mailing List) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 19:59:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a6] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 446 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My mailbox was just spammed by a person called Addison Snell. I can tell from the recipient address he used (a local exploder alias) that he pulled the subscriber list from the Majordomo at the host site. Is anybody else seeing this? -- Chip Rosenthal Ban excessive reposts: /^X-Mailer: Mozilla/h:j Unicom Systems Development For a good time: http://www.unicom.com/john-hiatt/ PGP key: http://www.unicom.com/personal/chip.html From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 23 05:00:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA05961 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 04:32:09 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA05953 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 04:32:07 -0700 Received: from mail.germany.eu.net(192.76.144.65) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma005867; Wed Aug 23 04:31:38 1995 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:10:21 +0200 Message-Id: <199508231110.NAA18068@mail.Germany.EU.net> Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net with SMTP (5.51:31/EUnetD-2.5.2.a) via EUnet id NAA18068; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 13:10:21 +0200 X-Sender: mbohnet@PersonalMail.Germany.EU.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: List-Managers@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de (Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG) Subject: Internet Resources Database(tm) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I want to inform the subscribers of this list about a new, soon to be launched offline Internet Guide, the Internet Resources Database(TM), and=20 want to ask each of you to submit a brief description of your the=20 mailing list you run, to ensure that IRD is presenting your list with the most current informations. The Internet Resources Database =99 (IRD) is a very comprehensive guide to all Internet resources for the PC.=20 With the IRD software every user can quickly built his own Internet Resources Database, by including all those information files that cover his or her area(s) of interest. The database can be easily updated with the most current or additional information's in a matter of minutes by downloading the appropriate IRD database file. The actual files and new files will be available for free downloading from= the IRD Home Page and at various other sites on the Internet Check the IRD Home Page for more info's http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html We would appreciate if you can provide informations about your mailing list using our feedback form. You can request the form on the IRD Support&Feedback Page=20 http://www.entreprenerus.net/mbmarkt/support.html=20 or by sending a blank E-mail to our autoresponder: ird-inputform-inpmaill@mbmarkt.entrepreneurs.net Thank you all Martin Bohnet ----------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/ Email:mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de or 100045.3651@compuserve.com Tel:+49-6126-93100 Fax:+49-6126-93107 Publisher of the INTERNET RESOURCES DATABASE (TM) The ultimate guide to all Internet resources for your PC http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 23 06:30:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA07310 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 06:08:25 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA07302 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 06:08:23 -0700 Received: from uu4.psi.com(38.146.21.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma007300; Wed Aug 23 06:07:40 1995 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA06749 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 95 07:27:14 -0400 Received: by jsoft.com (NX5.67e/NX3.02M) id AA04260; Wed, 23 Aug 95 06:25:12 -0500 Message-Id: <9508231125.AA04260@ jsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Wed, 23 Aug 95 06:25:10 -0500 To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com Subject: errors generating Mime messages Reply-To: Gary.Frederick@jsoft.com References: <199508230449.XAA23216@schoneal.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just got done hacking on several Mime messages. I had two problems. One was that a system was sending error messages about mail to a user they = removed. They had been generating error messages for 6 days before I got = 188K of Mime messages that I could not read. Where do errors from Postmaster go? Is the Errors-to: header ignored? Do errors go to the =46rom address? The second problem was from the NEW! AOL mailer. I think my Mime reader was = having problems with quoted-printable text. I have received = quoted-printable in the past, and may have hit a limit because the message = was large. I fixed it by editing it 'by hand'. sigh AOL is trying to make us list managers happy (thanks!). Perhaps a heads up = message before a major change would help? Gary Gary.Frederick@jsoft.com From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 23 09:30:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00662 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:08:44 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00628 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:08:37 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smae00582; Wed Aug 23 09:07:39 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id IAA10275; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 08:35:02 -0700 Received: from mail.germany.eu.net(192.76.144.65) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010266; Wed Aug 23 08:34:49 1995 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:55:43 +0200 Message-Id: <199508230555.HAA24730@mail.Germany.EU.net> Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net with SMTP (5.51:31/EUnetD-2.5.2.a) via EUnet id HAA24730; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 07:55:43 +0200 X-Sender: mbohnet@PersonalMail.Germany.EU.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: List-Managers@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de (Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG) Subject: Internet Resources Database(tm) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, I want to inform the subscribers of this list about a new, soon to be launched offline Internet Guide, the Internet Resources Database(TM), and=20 want to ask each of you to submit a brief description of your the=20 mailing list you run, to ensure that IRD is presenting your list with the most current informations. The Internet Resources Database =99 (IRD) is a very comprehensive guide to all Internet resources for the PC.=20 With the IRD software every user can quickly built his own Internet Resources Database, by including all those information files that cover his or her area(s) of interest. The database can be easily updated with the most current or additional information's in a matter of minutes by downloading the appropriate IRD database file. The actual files and new files will be available for free downloading from= the IRD Home Page and at various other sites on the Internet Check the IRD Home Page for more info's http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html We would appreciate if you can provide informations about your mailing list using our feedback form. You can request the form on the IRD Support&Feedback Page=20 http://www.entreprenerus.net/mbmarkt/support.html=20 or by sending a blank E-mail to our autoresponder: ird-inputform-inpmaill@mbmarkt.entrepreneurs.net Thank you all Martin Bohnet ----------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/ Email:mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de or 100045.3651@compuserve.com Tel:+49-6126-93100 Fax:+49-6126-93107 Publisher of the INTERNET RESOURCES DATABASE (TM) The ultimate guide to all Internet resources for your PC http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 23 20:31:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA04555 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:07:24 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA04423 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 20:07:07 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaa04410; Wed Aug 23 20:06:57 1995 Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id TAA13414; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:36:05 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com(152.163.172.53) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma013412; Wed Aug 23 19:35:54 1995 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA27222; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:55:58 -0400 Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 21:55:58 -0400 Message-ID: <950823215542_61835480@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: LSTOWN-L@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: AOL problems? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-08-23 21:08:38 EDT, 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Elliott Parker) writes: >Are any of your subscribers having trouble with AOL? For those not already in the know, last week AOL encountered some mail system problems stemming from a sendmail bug. Over the weekend, a new (and apparently unrelated) problem cropped up which affected some people on mailing lists (particularly, ones with typically large articles) I hadn't posted anything up until yesterday primarily because I am still buried with last week's mail, and because we only just discovered the breadth and depth of the problem. However, this evening I received mail from our mail admins indicating that they believe the problem has been fixed; this is at least partially corroborated by reports from a user who has begun receiving mail from a list to which he subscribed two days ago. If you receive any reports of mail related problems from AOL members, please have them write to me directly, including when the problems started and what lists they are on, and I will do my best to have them helped. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Thu Aug 24 04:32:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA13311 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 04:25:33 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA13283 for ; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 04:25:29 -0700 From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from frege-hg.math.ethz.ch(129.132.104.6) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma013276; Thu Aug 24 04:25:12 1995 Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id KAA23826; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:15:36 +0200 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id KAA28535; Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:15:14 +0200 Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 10:15:14 +0200 Message-Id: <199508240815.KAA28535@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: PMDAtropos@aol.com CC: LSTOWN-L@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, jopatton@aol.com In-reply-to: <950823215542_61835480@mail04.mail.aol.com> (PMDAtropos@aol.com) Subject: Re: AOL problems? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Mr. O'Donnell, as soon as it has been determined when the problems started and when they were solved, could you please share that information with us? (I am planning to send my aol subscribers a digest of those messages which they probably missed.) Thank you in advance, Norbert Bollow (Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS mailing list) > For those not already in the know, last week AOL encountered some mail system > problems stemming from a sendmail bug. Over the weekend, a new (and > apparently unrelated) problem cropped up which affected some people on > mailing lists (particularly, ones with typically large articles) > > I hadn't posted anything up until yesterday primarily because I am still > buried with last week's mail, and because we only just discovered the breadth > and depth of the problem. > > However, this evening I received mail from our mail admins indicating that > they believe the problem has been fixed; this is at least partially > corroborated by reports from a user who has begun receiving mail from a list > to which he subscribed two days ago. > > If you receive any reports of mail related problems from AOL members, please > have them write to me directly, including when the problems started and what > lists they are on, and I will do my best to have them helped. > > -- > __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) > \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager > Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 > Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor > http://www.cais.com/atropos/ ---- "The spam stops here." > From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 25 07:10:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA04851 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 06:30:26 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id GAA04561 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 06:29:40 -0700 Received: from mycroft.greatcircle.com(198.102.244.35) by miles via smap (V1.3) id smaaa4356; Fri Aug 25 06:28:50 1995 Received: from icg.stwing.upenn.edu by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id FAA22235; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 05:11:33 -0700 Received: (from mengwong@localhost) by icg.stwing.upenn.edu (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA18027; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:03:04 -0400 Message-Id: <199508251203.IAA18027@icg.stwing.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 08:03:00 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: from "Monee C. Kidd" at Aug 22, 95 10:02:06 pm From: mengwong@icg.pobox.com (Meng Weng Wong) Reply-To: mengwong@icg.pobox.com X-Ad: for a lifetime email address, http://pobox.com/pobox/, or info@pobox.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2006 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Monee Kidd maintains a read only list, culling recipe archives from Usenet newsgroups, and posting them once a month. | A bout a week or so ago, I noticed in r.f.choc, someone has begun a new | web site pertaining to chocolate. The first thing I saw when I went there | was references to my list, with all my words lifted verbatim from my | list info post. Which I didn't mind so much. Until I found a whole | section of this site is dedicated to my recipes. The site owner, tho he | did credit me for putting together the archives, is taking all my work | and dumping it onto his pages, without having bothered to tell me, let | alone ask my permission. | | I know, since the posts were from Usenet to begin with, I | don't own a copywrite on the material or anything, but | he's taken my formatting, and my hard work, and I don't | appreciate that. You can't copyright the recipes themselves. But you *can* copyright the original "selection, coordination, or arrangement" of your compilations. To qualify for copyright, your presentation of the information must be original; for example, if you use a specific format for your work, and he's reproducing that format on his site, then he's infringing, and you can rightly tell him to stop. (standard list-digest formats probably don't count as an "original format".) If you're not simply archiving all recipes posted to certain Usenet newsgroups, but are selecting them with special criteria, the database becomes more original, with increased copyright protection. All works created after March 1989 (when the United States joined the Berne Convention) are, by default, copyrighted, even if you don't explicitly say so.. You can read more about copyright as it applies to the online world in Lance Rose's "NetLaw", McGraw-Hill, 1995. Meng Weng Wong mengwong@pobox.com permanent email addresses and urls, and mailing lists: http://pobox.com/pobox/ home of webdomo, majordomo list administration through the web From list-managers-owner Fri Aug 25 08:01:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA07972 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 07:57:31 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA07964 for ; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 07:57:29 -0700 Received: from syswrk.ucis.dal.ca(129.173.2.108) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma007962; Fri Aug 25 07:57:26 1995 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HUHMJBAMXS006UQN@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:55:46 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 4380"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HUHMJ262Z4009ZAP@AC.DAL.CA>; Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:55:36 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA14336; Fri, 25 Aug 95 11:54:51 -0300 Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:54:50 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9508251454.AA14336@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-length: 1474 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk mengwong@icg.pobox.com (Meng Weng Wong) writes: >All works created after March 1989 (when the United States >joined the Berne Convention) are, by default, copyrighted, >even if you don't explicitly say so.. Aside from the fact that I don't think the US joining the Berne Convention has any legal status outside the US, there is a great deal of ambiguity in the situation regarding the copyrighting of posts. For one thing, who owns the copyright? The poster or the list owner? I know at least one list owner who claims copyright over material appearing on his lists no matter what the posters say. While I sympathize with anyone who feels that their material is being used improperly after being posted, there seems to be a practice of fair usage developing that is similar to the use of printed material in academic and scientific circles. So long as material is honestly and fully attributed, I don't think that many people see a problem. The Internet is a fantastic medium for communication. Material tends to spread, and for the most part that is good. Plagiarism is always a problem, but that is really more a matter of fraud than of copyright. If people don't want their material publicly disseminated, they should avoid posting it to the Internet. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Habitat Science Division Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 04:26:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA19071 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:08:35 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA19064 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:08:30 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id HAA21797 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:07:56 -0400 Message-Id: <199508261107.HAA21797@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: errors generating Mime messages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:07:51 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ggf@jsoft.com said: > I just got done hacking on several Mime messages. I had two problems. > One was that a system was sending error messages about mail to a user > they removed. They had been generating error messages for 6 days > before I got 188K of Mime messages that I could not read. > Where do errors from Postmaster go? Is the Errors-to: header ignored? > Do errors go to the From address? Newer sendmails use the SMTP From Envelope header and ignore errors-to: (unless explicitly configured otherwise), which is the "correct" behavior, as errors-to was a sendmailism. If sendmail was generating MIME errors, it was a newer sendmail. :-) Note this isn't the From: header from the mail. It'll likely show up as Return-path: in received mail. Why couldn't you read the MIME messages? Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 04:29:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA19081 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:09:17 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA19074 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 04:09:11 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id HAA21814 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:08:41 -0400 Message-Id: <199508261108.HAA21814@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:08:38 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk meo@schoneal.com said: > Am I the only one who thinks it's braindead that some (all?) > sendmails now ship with the default for bounces being mime - even > when the original wasn't mime? Talk about rewrite screwups! The message isn't rewritten. It's being encased in MIME, so that an intelligent mailer can pull the message unaltered from the body of the bounce. The MIME overhead isn't that bad for non-MIME readers. And it makes the message much nicer to deal with under MIME mail readers. The time where you really hit problems is when you have a MIME reading partially configured (ie, elm configured for MIME without metamail installed.) If you dislike MIME bounces now, you are probably going to really dislike them once 8.7 gets widely deployed. It uses the IETF Notifications and Acknowledgements Requirements working group's recommendations for bounce messages (and for receipt notification, Return-Receipt-To: is gone), which includes a machine parsable error section. It's a more complex bounce message, but now it's one that can be used easily for automated handling of bounces. (Actually, under Sendmail 8.7, currently in late beta, by default it will encode 8-bit characters on the fly. But if you are sending around 8-bit characters without marking them as such, you have worse reliability problems to deal with.) IETF Notifications and Acknowledgements Requirements: http://info.internet.isi.edu/R219108-222467-1m/in-drafts/id-abstracts.html Sendmail 8.7 beta: ftp://ftp.cs.berkeley.edu/ucb/sendmail/.prerelease Bob From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 07:26:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA21805 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:07:34 -0700 Received: from uu4.psi.com (uu4.psi.com [38.146.21.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA21798 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 07:07:31 -0700 Received: from jsoft.com by uu4.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.071791-PSI/PSINet) via UUCP; id AA12196 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 95 10:04:15 -0400 Received: by jsoft.com (NX5.67e/NX3.02M) id AA12720; Sat, 26 Aug 95 09:02:48 -0500 Message-Id: <9508261402.AA12720@ jsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Gary Frederick Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 09:02:46 -0500 To: Bob Snyder Subject: Re: errors generating Mime messages Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: Gary.Frederick@jsoft.com References: <199508261107.HAA21797@janet.advsys.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Why couldn't you read the MIME messages? Because my MIME mail reader died when it hit the message... (ya give em the = coolest standards and they still drool on their chin (-:) Thanks for the pointer to the standard. I'll get the IETF doc and see what = I can do. Gary From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 09:56:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA23122 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:30:34 -0700 Received: from panix.com (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA23115 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:30:31 -0700 Received: (from jander@localhost) by panix.com (8.6.12/8.6.12+PanixU1.1) id MAA29680; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:29:06 -0400 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:29:06 -0400 From: Jim Anderson Message-Id: <199508261629.MAA29680@panix.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Smartlist vs. Majordomo ? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was wondering if anyone is in the position of comparing/contrasting these two list managers. From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 10:00:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA23240 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:48:32 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA23233 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 09:48:27 -0700 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA21896 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:46:59 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA00751 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:46:58 -0400 Message-Id: <199508261646.MAA00751@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 25 Aug 1995 11:54:50 -0300." <9508251454.AA14336@biome.bio.dfo.ca> References: <9508251454.AA14336@biome.bio.dfo.ca> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 12:46:57 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9508251454.AA14336@biome.bio.dfo.ca>, Bill Silvert writes: >mengwong@icg.pobox.com (Meng Weng Wong) writes: > >>All works created after March 1989 (when the United States >>joined the Berne Convention) are, by default, copyrighted, >>even if you don't explicitly say so.. > >Aside from the fact that I don't think the US joining the Berne >Convention has any legal status outside the US, Huh? Isn't that the whole point of a treaty in the first place? You know, like so all the people signing it agree on certain things? > there is a great deal of >ambiguity in the situation regarding the copyrighting of posts. There is? > For one >thing, who owns the copyright? The author. Plain and simple. > The poster or the list owner? I know at >least one list owner who claims copyright over material appearing on his >lists no matter what the posters say. Lists can and sometimes do claim compilation copyrights, especially for archives of messages. That's different. --Dave From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 14:27:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA29941 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 14:14:09 -0700 Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (gatekeeper2.mcimail.com [192.147.45.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA29934 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 14:14:06 -0700 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.38.40.100]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA27883; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:12:09 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id aa19258; 26 Aug 95 21:09 WET Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:08 EST From: "Curt A. Monash" <0006058685@mcimail.com> To: List Managers Subject: List management services Message-Id: <32950826210823/0006058685NA4EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello! I'm looking at setting up a few mailing lists, with memberships of various sizes. I'll start under 20, but eventually I also want to build a "broadcast"-only (i.e., one-way) list with potentially enormous circulation (10,000? 100,000?). I'm reluctant to set up and administer my own server. The capital costs are silly for small lists, especially since I lack the requisite technical capability right now, and my hoped-for volume explosion makes the big lists potentially risky as well. Under these constraints: How do you suggest I go about it? Presumably, some ISPs have services; who are the best vendors? (Price, service, ease of use?) I also have an excellent track record of getting software and services for free (comes from writing a newsletter about the software industry). If I get a volunteer, what should I ask them for? Thanks in advance!!! Curt Monash Editor Monash Software Letter cmonash@mcimail.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 15:56:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA01707 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 15:35:50 -0700 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA01693 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 15:35:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199508262235.PAA01693@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9604; Sun, 27 Aug 95 00:29:41 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 8068; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 00:29:41 +0200 Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 23:44:55 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: List management services To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:08 EST from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:08 EST "Curt A. Monash" <0006058685@mcimail.com> said: Note: I work for a company offering mailing list services, so I'm obviously biased. >I'm looking at setting up a few mailing lists, with memberships of >various sizes. I'll start under 20, but eventually I also want to build >a "broadcast"-only (i.e., one-way) list with potentially enormous >circulation (10,000? 100,000?). The small list you can get basically anywhere, probably for free if you run a software newsletter. A list with 100k subscribers on the other hand costs thousands of dollars a year, even if you manage it entirely yourself. Your average unix workstation has a capacity of 100-200k deliveries per day, and when 100k deliveries hit the machine in the space of a few minutes, well, it gets S-L-O-W. Typically you submit the messages in pieces of 50-100 recipients each. That's 1000-2000 pieces, each of which would normally create a new process. In practice the system is brought to its knees at some 200-500 processes, depending on size, and the rest is queued for later processing. It will probably take about 8h for your average subscriber to get his copy. Meanwhile the system is unusable for normal users, so we're talking about a machine dedicated to your list, maybe this and a few other large lists if you don't post every day. It's big money no matter how you look at it. If you want it for free, I think your best bet is to deal with a small ISP that is introducing a new service and needs a visible customer. This could also bring PR to your newsletter as they're likely to make a press release. Make sure you get a written commitment for your target 100k capacity though, even if it's only for a year. Even with the best of intentions, it is not uncommon for new players to underestimate the technical difficulties of running large mailing lists. When faced with a choice between a $30k+ hardware bill and an apology to a freeloader, your chances will not be very good in the absence of a written commitment. Avoid ISPs that do not have a dedicated machines for the lists. The chance of getting good shell performance with a list of that size being zero, this is a problem waiting to happen. If they have a dedicated machine, it shows that they are serious about their commitment to run a large list. The horsepower, at least, will be there, and, as long as they don't have enough paying customers to require an upgrade, it will be free for the taking. If you can't get it for free, you may want to look into getting a corporate sponsor - a company like Cathay Pacific, Sheraton or the like that couldn't care less what you say about software products. A computer company might be more willing, but then you'll have to worry about what might happen to the list if you want to say something that doesn't promote their corporate image, or that of their partners ;-) It isn't as difficult as it sounds, as long as your newsletter is well established and you make sure to show the cost in terms of "xx cents per viewer". Then they can compare this to what they have to pay for real world ads. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 16:26:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA02222 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:09:44 -0700 Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA02215 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:09:39 -0700 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA12219; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:56:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199508262256.RAA12219@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Problems with AOL receiving list mail? To: rsnyder@janet.advsys.com (Bob Snyder) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:56:47 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508261108.HAA21814@janet.advsys.com> from "Bob Snyder" at Aug 26, 95 07:08:38 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 102 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I guess my feeling is just that bounces and similar things should all stay lowest-common denominator. From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 16:56:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA02574 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:43:34 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA02567 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:43:31 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzene20756; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 19:42:10 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA08137; Sat, 26 Aug 95 16:27:39 PDT Message-Id: <9508262327.AA08137@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:27:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: <199508262256.RAA12219@schoneal.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Standardization of bounce messages considered desirable content-length: 959 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) writes: > I guess my feeling is just that bounces and similar things > should all stay lowest-common denominator. I disagree, since standardizing them is the only thing that will permit automated handling of bounces, which is a *big* win for list owners. For the greatcircle.com Firewalls and Majordomo lists, plus list-managers and some other lists, I get approx. 4,000 list-related messages per day, most of them bounces. Needless to say, even with a smart mailer it is impossible to deal with them individually; I'd really love a defined, easily parseable format that allowed the conforming majority to be dealt with in a completely automatic fashion. At this point it would take some serious hacking to be able to deal with the variety of bounce formats; even the most common format (sendmail) has enough version differences that it would be tough to parse. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 20:26:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id UAA05046 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:08:41 -0700 Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id UAA05039 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 20:08:37 -0700 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA15022 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 22:08:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199508270308.WAA15022@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Standardization of bounce messages considered desirable To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 22:08:59 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 561 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael C. Berch said... | |meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) writes: |> I guess my feeling is just that bounces and similar things |> should all stay lowest-common denominator. | |I disagree, since standardizing them is the only thing that will permit |automated handling of bounces... I don't know what you disagree with here, because I simply said I think they should be lowest common denominator. Whatever that may be, it certainly implies a standard. Perhaps you wish a standard different from LCD, but I didn't see that in that in your response. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Aug 26 21:56:49 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id VAA06579 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:53:41 -0700 Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA06570 for ; Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:53:38 -0700 Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA18104 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:52:14 -0700 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA05795 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 26 Aug 1995 21:52:14 -0700 Message-Id: <199508270452.AA05795@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Standardization of bounce messages considered desirable In-Reply-To: <9508262327.AA08137@postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 95 21:52:13 -0700 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael wrote: > > At this point it would take some serious hacking to be able to deal > with the variety of bounce formats; even the most common format > (sendmail) has enough version differences that it would be tough to parse. True enough, but SmartList, for one, already has this "serious hacking" included. By my estimate it catches about 95% of the bounces and is one of the major reasons I use it (with a 2,000-member list, I get a lot of bounces and handling them manually was a major time-sink I am exceedingly happy to be relieved of). Still, standardized bounces are very desirable -- it would further improve the bounce-handling possibilities and reduce the processing needed (a not-so-minor issue since most of the incoming list mail is typically bounces). Doesn't listserv also do some bounce handling? -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 10:26:50 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA14479 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:25:54 -0700 Received: from netcom23.netcom.com (netcom23.netcom.com [192.100.81.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA14472 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:25:51 -0700 Received: by netcom23.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id KAA15981; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:21:24 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:21:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Cunningham X-Sender: scottec@netcom23 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Addison Snell & the Continua Spam In-Reply-To: <199508262256.PAA01899@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I also received the Continua Spam advertising a 'Consumer Reports' type internet zine. I did a 'whois' on his site (sales@wff.continua.com) and from there, their provider (FULLFEED.COM). I then composed a message indicating the abuse and including the mail as an attachment. I explained where I got their addresses and why each one was being sent this mail. (To order the 'zine' you replied to the spams address, thus I did not send a copy there!) I then sent this out to the postmaster and administrative contact at each site (which were: wff.continua.com, CONTINUA@SHRIKE.AIS.NET (Bob Shwartz), ray.lampman@FULLFEED.COM, and jschneid@AIS.NET.) I also requested return receipts from each. I have so far received one reply from Josh E. Schneider, VP of sales for American Information Systems (AIS.NET). He indicated that Continua would be moving out of their network next week. I don't know if that was on Continua's part or AIS. If you wish to see the original mailing, or my reply I will e-mail a copy to those who request it. - Scott Edward Cunningham [scottec@netcom.com] Seattle, Washington, USA - From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 10:28:47 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id KAA14378 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:13:28 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id KAA14371 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 10:13:19 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id NAA01768 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:12:40 -0400 Message-Id: <199508271712.NAA01768@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Standardization of bounce messages considered desirable In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 26 Aug 1995 22:08:59 CDT." <199508270308.WAA15022@schoneal.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:12:36 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk meo@schoneal.com said: > I don't know what you disagree with here, because I simply said I > think they should be lowest common denominator. Whatever that may > be, it certainly implies a standard. Perhaps you wish a standard > different from LCD, but I didn't see that in that in your response. The LCD is probably a simple text message. The IETF Notary drafts are much more highly defined, specifying the messages are to be in a certain MIME format, with a human readable section, and a machine parsable section. But a MIME message, when you get down to it, is just a text message. :-) This is what a 8.7 bounce message looks like, for a non-MIME reader: Mime-version: 1.0 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:07:12 -0400 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: User unknown To: Content-type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="NAA01701.809543232/janet.advsys.com" Auto-submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --NAA01701.809543232/janet.advsys.com The original message was received at Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:06:54 -0400 from rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1] ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to gabriel.advsys.com.: >>> RCPT To: <<< 550 ... User unknown 550 ... User unknown --NAA01701.809543232/janet.advsys.com Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; janet.advsys.com Received-From-MTA: DNS; localhost Arrival-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:06:54 -0400 Final-Recipient: RFC822; foo@advsys.com Action: failed Status: 5.2.0 Remote-MTA: DNS; gabriel.advsys.com Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 ... User unknown Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:07:12 -0400 --NAA01701.809543232/janet.advsys.com Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: rsnyder@janet.advsys.com Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id NAA01700 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:06:54 -0400 Message-Id: <199508271706.NAA01700@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: foo@advsys.com Subject: test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 13:06:52 -0400 From: Bob Snyder test --NAA01701.809543232/janet.advsys.com-- From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 14:57:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA21895 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:37:59 -0700 Received: (smap@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id WAA06816 for ; Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:26:25 -0700 Received: from south-station-annex.mit.edu(18.72.1.2) by miles via smap (V1.3) id sma006810; Wed Aug 23 22:25:34 1995 Received: from CARTOON.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA19523; Wed, 23 Aug 95 22:26:01 EDT Received: by cartoon.MIT.EDU (5.57/4.7) id AA00452; Wed, 23 Aug 95 22:25:58 -0400 Message-Id: <9508240225.AA00452@cartoon.MIT.EDU> Reply-To: pshuang@MIT.EDU (Ping Huang) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 22 Aug 1995 00:01:01 PDT." <199508220701.AAA08869@miles.greatcircle.com> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 22:25:57 EDT From: Ping Huang Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Some even take it so far as to refuse to unsubscribe people who > mail to the list *until* they mail to list-request. (I happen to > share this view; don't reward bad behavior.) In the vein of the parenthetical remark above, I've been working with someone who is setting up a new home for some of the mailing lists I maintain. The list server software can easily be set up to check for and filter out messages sent to the mailing list address which looks like subscribe and unsubscribe requests. The person initially suggested simply processing those commands; however, I requested instead that such administrative request messages to the list address not be automatically fulfilled, but instead produce the same result as if a "help" request had been sent to the correct administrative address (in this case, a -request address). I didn't want to encourage the behavior of sending subscribe and unsubscribe messages to the mailing list itself in any fashion whatsoever, even if in this particular case it would not have been redistributed to other subscribers. -- Ping Huang . Unless explicitly stated, not to be construed as speaking for anyone other than himself, & even that only MOST of the time From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 15:00:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA22378 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:56:15 -0700 Received: from mail.Germany.EU.net (mail.Germany.EU.net [192.76.144.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA22371 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 14:56:11 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:56:37 +0200 Message-Id: <199508272156.XAA13335@mail.Germany.EU.net> Received: by mail.Germany.EU.net with SMTP (5.59:8/EUnetD-2.5.2.a) via EUnet id XAA13335; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 23:56:37 +0200 X-Sender: mbohnet@PersonalMail.Germany.EU.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: List-Managers@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de (Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG) Subject: Internet Resources Database(tm) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, (I resend this message because I got notice that it might not have gone through. Sorry if you get it twice.) I want to inform the subscribers of this list about a new, soon to be launched offline Internet Guide, the Internet Resources Database(TM), and=20 want to ask each of you to submit a brief description of your the=20 mailing list you run, to ensure that IRD is presenting your list with the most current informations. The Internet Resources Database =99 (IRD) is a very comprehensive guide to all Internet resources for the PC.=20 With the IRD software every user can quickly built his own Internet Resources Database, by including all those information files that cover his or her area(s) of interest. The database can be easily updated with the most current or additional information's in a matter of minutes by downloading the appropriate IRD database file. The actual files and new files will be available for free downloading from= the IRD Home Page and at various other sites on the Internet Check the IRD Home Page for more info's http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html We would appreciate if you can provide informations about your mailing list using our feedback form. You can request the form on the IRD Support&Feedback Page=20 http://www.entreprenerus.net/mbmarkt/support.html=20 or by sending a blank E-mail to our autoresponder: ird-inputform-inpmaill@mbmarkt.entrepreneurs.net Thank you all Martin Bohnet ----------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Bohnet Markt Consulting KG http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/ Email:mbohnet@marktcons.f.eunet.de or 100045.3651@compuserve.com Tel:+49-6126-93100 Fax:+49-6126-93107 Publisher of the INTERNET RESOURCES DATABASE (TM) The ultimate guide to all Internet resources for your PC http://www.entrepreneurs.net/mbmarkt/irdhome.html=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 16:57:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA27205 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:53:09 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (xcrsnyder.ge_xc.dialup.net [158.254.10.56]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA27198 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 16:53:05 -0700 Received: from janet.advsys.com (rsnyder@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by janet.advsys.com (8.7.Beta.12/8.7.Beta.12) with ESMTP id TAA04494 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:52:28 -0400 Message-Id: <199508272352.TAA04494@janet.advsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Notifications URLs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 19:52:25 -0400 From: Bob Snyder Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Apparently the URL I posted earlier for info on the Notifications and Acknowledgements Requirements working group of the IETF was incorrect. The drafts are under the "Notifications and Acknowledgements Requirements (notary)" entry of http://info.internet.isi.edu/1m/in-drafts/id-abstracts.html, which I now show to be http://info.internet.isi.edu/R221488-224847-1m/in-draft s/id-abstracts.html. Sorry about that. Bob From list-managers-owner Sun Aug 27 17:30:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA27747 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:28:04 -0700 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com (gatekeeper.mcimail.com [192.147.45.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA27740 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 1995 17:28:01 -0700 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA08693; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 00:24:56 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ac26516; 28 Aug 95 0:22 WET Date: Sun, 27 Aug 95 19:21 EST From: "Curt A. Monash" <0006058685@mcimail.com> To: List Managers Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #158 Message-Id: <95950828002159/0006058685NA1EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've gotten some excellent general answers to my query about mailing list services. Thank you!! Now I'd like to follow up by asking: What are typical prices for running mailing lists? and (maybe this question should go first) What are the variants on the level of service one can get? Curt Monash Editor and Publisher Monash Software Letter cmonash@mcimail.com (an address which tells you something about MY mailing sophistication) From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 08:00:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA01432 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:57:07 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA01424 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 07:57:03 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id IAA21223 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:55:35 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508281455.IAA21223@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:55:34 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2452 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Aside from the fact that I don't think the US joining the Berne > Convention has any legal status outside the US... The Berne Convention has legal status in every country that's a signatory to the Berne Convention. I believe Terry Carroll's Copyright FAQ has a list of who is and who isn't; most industrialized nations *are* signatories. > there is a great deal of ambiguity in the situation regarding the > copyrighting of posts. For one thing, who owns the copyright? The > poster or the list owner? The creator of a work automatically holds copyright on that work as soon as it's created. Unless this copyright is specifically renounced or assigned to someone else, it's held by the creator. > I know at least one list owner who claims copyright over material > appearing on his lists no matter what the posters say. In the absence of a legally-binding agreement to that effect, he's blowing smoke. > While I sympathize with anyone who feels that their material is being > used improperly after being posted, there seems to be a practice of fair > usage developing that is similar to the use of printed material in > academic and scientific circles. I assume from this statement that you're not aware that the unauthorized reproduction of copyrighted materials has recently resulted in successful lawsuits in both academic and scientific circles. Reproducing an entire article or chapter from a journal or textbook without permission is not "fair use", as companies like Texaco and Kinko's have discovered. > So long as material is honestly and fully attributed, I don't think that > many people see a problem. Except for the copyright holders, who are the only people whose opinion matters. > If people don't want their material publicly disseminated, they should > avoid posting it to the Internet. In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Copyright law covers electronic media just like it covers any other medium. The fact that something is available on the Usenet or the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you like with it. (Just so everyone knows when I'm coming from, I make my copyrighted material available the Internet, so I have a personal stake in this discussion. So far I haven't had to sic the lawyers on anyone for misappropiating my work, but I've come close twice, and expect I'll probably have to actually file a lawsuit eventually.) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 08:52:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id IAA03235 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:47:22 -0700 Received: from aspensys (aspensys.aspensys.com [198.77.70.104]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA03228 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 08:47:19 -0700 Received: from smtpinet.aspensys.com by aspensys (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA02241; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 11:42:24 +0500 Received: from cc:Mail by smtpinet.aspensys.com id AA809635768 Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:49:28 EST Date: Mon, 28 Aug 95 11:49:28 EST From: jmeritt@smtpinet.aspensys.com (Meritt, Jim) Message-Id: <9507288096.AA809635768@smtpinet.aspensys.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com, holford@VNET.IBM.COM Subject: Re: mail-to-news content-length: 605 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm interested in the source code for these gateways. Any POCs? Jim Meritt ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: mail-to-news Author: holford@VNET.IBM.COM at SMTPINET Date: 8/22/95 2:53 PM Recently, the mail-to-news gateway I've been using to post to usenet news groups seems to have gone away. Can anyone suggest a reliable gateway that supports a good assortment of the alt.xxx news groups? Can anyone suggest an appropriate news group or e-mail list that would be a good source of information on mail-to-news gateways? G. Holford From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 09:51:50 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04906 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:42:12 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id JAA04899 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 09:42:08 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HULWSTYVGG002DKD@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:32:58 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 4831"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HULWSIO8XC00CPZF@AC.DAL.CA>; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:32:49 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:list-managers@greatcircle.com id AA12792; Mon, 28 Aug 95 13:31:45 -0300 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:31:44 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-reply-to: <199508281455.IAA21223@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at Aug 28, 95 08:55:34 am To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <9508281631.AA12792@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-length: 2839 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that this unduly legalistic response misses some points: >The creator of a work automatically holds copyright on that work as soon as >it's created. Unless this copyright is specifically renounced or assigned >to someone else, it's held by the creator. > >> While I sympathize with anyone who feels that their material is being >> used improperly after being posted, there seems to be a practice of fair >> usage developing that is similar to the use of printed material in >> academic and scientific circles. > >I assume from this statement that you're not aware that the unauthorized >reproduction of copyrighted materials has recently resulted in successful >lawsuits in both academic and scientific circles. Reproducing an entire >article or chapter from a journal or textbook without permission is not >"fair use", as companies like Texaco and Kinko's have discovered. > >> So long as material is honestly and fully attributed, I don't think that >> many people see a problem. > >Except for the copyright holders, who are the only people whose opinion >matters. > >> If people don't want their material publicly disseminated, they should >> avoid posting it to the Internet. > >In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Copyright law covers electronic media just >like it covers any other medium. The fact that something is available on the >Usenet or the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you >like with it. > >(Just so everyone knows when I'm coming from, I make my copyrighted >material available the Internet, so I have a personal stake in this >discussion. Copyright law lags behind reasonable usage, and list managers should be sensitive to the differences and possible problems. For example, if someone posts a meeting announcement to one list, can it be cross-posted to other lists? Technically not (unless the posting contains a copyright release), but not very logical. And what about my reply, am I violating copyright by including such a long excerpt? It could prove legally very difficult or impossible to debate issues over the internet unless all the messages are of the form: "So and so said .... and I disagree, and I hereby waive all copyright on the statement that he is a stupid jerk...". Yes, I am "aware that the unauthorized reproduction of copyrighted materials has recently resulted in successful lawsuits in both academic and scientific circles." I think that if we treat postings to mailing lists as equivalent to "entire articles or chapters from a journal or textbook" then we will negate much of the value of mailing lists. I also have copyrighted information on the net, including the entire BSIM simulation package. It is clearly marked as such. OK guys, if anyone wants to answer this, I hereby waive all copyright to the contents of this posting. Bill Silvert From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 13:51:37 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id NAA20973 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:40:56 -0700 Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA20940 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:40:44 -0700 Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (barr@augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA18304 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:39:17 -0400 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA10930 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:39:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199508282039.QAA10930@augusta.math.psu.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.2 7/18/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 28 Aug 1995 13:31:44 -0300." <9508281631.AA12792@biome.bio.dfo.ca> References: <9508281631.AA12792@biome.bio.dfo.ca> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 16:39:15 -0400 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <9508281631.AA12792@biome.bio.dfo.ca>, Bill Silvert writes: >release), but not very logical. And what about my reply, am I violating >copyright by including such a long excerpt? No matter. Copyright law and the Berne convention expressly states that copies or quotes made for the purposes of critique or news reporting are "fair use". (U.S. code also adds "satire", if I recall.) In theory the person could argue that you quoted too much to be "fair" but such things are very hard to prove. If you were found guilty, that opens you up to damages. Since the followup had the same propagation as the initial text, it's hard to prove that you caused any damage to the work. (certainly a followup is not trying to pass off the article as your own) --Dave From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 14:22:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA24341 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:16:12 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA24328 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:16:07 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id OAA02566; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:14:40 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 14:14:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Lazlo Nibble cc: lm Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-Reply-To: <199508281455.IAA21223@kitsune.swcp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > > If people don't want their material publicly disseminated, they should > > avoid posting it to the Internet. > > In my opinion, this is a cop-out. Copyright law covers electronic media just > like it covers any other medium. The fact that something is available on the > Usenet or the Internet doesn't mean you have the right to do anything you > like with it. Well, there's an interesting twist - since NNTP is a system where unlimited copying is how things work, by posting to usenet you implicitly are saying "this thing can be copied everywhere". This came up when Walnut Creek was selling usenet cdroms. I don't know if there's ever been any actual U.S. legal decision in this issue, but it seems like those who claim that their posts to usenet can't be dupicated and passed around IN THEIR ORIGINAL FORM AND CONTEXT don't have much of a leg to stand on. Now, hosting content on a WWW site might be different, since putting content there does not imply "copy this wherever", it implies "always access this central site". Proxy caches muddle that a little, but only a little. Brian From list-managers-owner Mon Aug 28 19:51:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id TAA08648 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:37:46 -0700 Received: from rmii.com (rainbow.rmii.com [166.93.8.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA08639 for ; Mon, 28 Aug 1995 19:37:43 -0700 Received: by rmii.com (Smail-3.1.29.1 #4) id m0snGUJ-000JTGC; Mon, 28 Aug 95 20:33 MDT Date: Mon, 28 Aug 1995 20:33:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Jay Gary To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > Well, there's an interesting twist - since NNTP is a system where > unlimited copying is how things work, by posting to usenet you implicitly > are saying "this thing can be copied everywhere". It sounds good at first, but by this logic, we would say that because a newspaper is copied 100,000 times and distributed to your door step, it will give others the right to copy it and distribute it. NOT. From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 29 04:51:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id EAA24743 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:35:59 -0700 Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.2.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id EAA24736 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 04:35:55 -0700 Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HUN0NX53OG006IKJ@SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA>; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:34:18 -0400 Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 4973"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) by AC.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) id <01HUN0MXCFEO00AJEV@AC.DAL.CA>; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:34:10 -0300 Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for @ac.dal.ca:List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM id AA21242; Tue, 29 Aug 95 08:32:34 -0300 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 08:32:33 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-reply-to: from "Jay Gary" at Aug 28, 95 08:33:19 pm To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9508291132.AA21242@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-length: 909 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> Well, there's an interesting twist - since NNTP is a system where >> unlimited copying is how things work, by posting to usenet you implicitly >> are saying "this thing can be copied everywhere". > >It sounds good at first, but by this logic, we would say that because a >newspaper is copied 100,000 times and distributed to your door >step, it will give others the right to copy it and distribute it. NOT. There is a big difference in that the newspaper is only copied by the publisher, and there is no authorization for anyone else to make copies. When an item is posted to UseNet it is clearly understood that it can be copied from any system to any system that requests that newsgroup. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Habitat Science Division Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 29 07:21:34 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA00723 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 07:19:58 -0700 Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA00714 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 07:19:53 -0700 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id JAA32394; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:19:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199508291419.JAA32394@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts To: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 09:19:52 -0500 (CDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9508291132.AA21242@biome.bio.dfo.ca> from "Bill Silvert" at Aug 29, 95 08:32:33 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 659 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Bill Silvert said... |There is a big difference in that the newspaper is only copied by the |publisher, and there is no authorization for anyone else to make copies. |When an item is posted to UseNet it is clearly understood that it can be |copied from any system to any system that requests that newsgroup. Yes, but I think a reasonable person would expect that this means the copying is by news protocols, with distribution limited to news groups. Some might think this extends to email to those who might not have news access. Most would likely agree that printing a copy to include in a book for sale would not be a reasonable extension. IMO. -Miles From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 29 11:30:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09063 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:23:11 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA09056 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:23:08 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id LAA11807; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:21:42 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:21:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: Jay Gary cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Jay Gary wrote: > On Mon, 28 Aug 1995, Brian Behlendorf wrote: > > Well, there's an interesting twist - since NNTP is a system where > > unlimited copying is how things work, by posting to usenet you implicitly > > are saying "this thing can be copied everywhere". > > It sounds good at first, but by this logic, we would say that because a > newspaper is copied 100,000 times and distributed to your door > step, it will give others the right to copy it and distribute it. NOT. What's crucial is who is doing the copying. In the NNTP case, it's "anyone". In the newspaper case, it's clearly the newspaper. Your analogy would hold if, when I made a post to usenet, my machine actually copied the message 5000 times and sent it to 5000 different NNTP hosts, who didn't forward it beyond that, but that's not how it works. I send it to one NNTP server, who copies and sends it to one or more other NNTP servers, and eventually it's ubiquitous. Brian From list-managers-owner Tue Aug 29 11:31:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09080 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:25:58 -0700 Received: from taz.hyperreal.com (taz.hyperreal.com [204.62.129.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA09073 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:25:55 -0700 Received: by taz.hyperreal.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) id LAA12027; Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:24:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 11:24:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Brian Behlendorf To: "Miles O'Neal" cc: Bill Silvert , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Unauthorized copying of posts In-Reply-To: <199508291419.JAA32394@schoneal.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 29 Aug 1995, Miles O'Neal wrote: > Bill Silvert said... > |There is a big difference in that the newspaper is only copied by the > |publisher, and there is no authorization for anyone else to make copies. > |When an item is posted to UseNet it is clearly understood that it can be > |copied from any system to any system that requests that newsgroup. > > Yes, but I think a reasonable person would expect > that this means the copying is by news protocols, > with distribution limited to news groups. Some > might think this extends to email to those who > might not have news access. Most would likely > agree that printing a copy to include in a book > for sale would not be a reasonable extension. "Context and original form" applies. I.e., a cdrom of usenet might have the whole context and original form of the messages, even a printed book of a whole newsgroup might have that, but to take one message out of its context and put it in a book is clearly a different issue. Brian From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 01:30:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id BAA11313 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 01:13:00 -0700 Received: from mail-e1a.megaweb.com (mail-e1a.megaweb.com [204.148.101.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id BAA11306 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 01:12:57 -0700 Received: from www-3-147.gnn.com (www_3_147.gnn.com [205.188.3.147]) by mail-e1a.megaweb.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA24050 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 04:08:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199508300808.EAA24050@mail-e1a.megaweb.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Frankie Fingers" Organization: Internet Synergy To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 03:11:33 +0600 Subject: New service request Reply-to: IntSynergy@megaweb.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am looking for a listserver to handle a low volume list. Please include fee schedule, instructions, etc. Thank you, Frank From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 07:31:48 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id HAA19762 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:08:58 -0700 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA19750 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 07:08:54 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA04632; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:07:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:07:25 -0400 Message-ID: <950830100723_66972197@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: lstown-l@searn.sunet.se, list-managers@greatcircle.com cc: isp-admin-list@listserv.aol.com Subject: Confused AOL Users Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is an update for list owners who have AOL subscribers, particularly subscribers who receive your list as a digest. I've had a couple of reports that digests are being cut off when received by AOL subscribers. Recently received information leads me to suspect this is not the case. If your digest is routinely larger than 25k, it will arrive in the AOL member mailbox as an attachment, rather than a single file or (as previously) several chunks. If the AOL member tries to open the attachment using the AOL software (or a text editor which uses the standard Windows or Mac text tools), they will not see the entire message -- it will either not be displayed or will be cut off at about 31k, depending on the application being used. The best solution at this time is to have the user use either a word processor (Microsoft Word, for example) or a text editor which can handle >32k of text to open the attachment. Windows users can use Windows Write, and I have personally found BBEdit to be a capable application for the Macintosh. Members with other problems are invited to write me directly for more help. Including a copy of relevant list articles or digest will help speed the process. Thanks for your time and patience. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager Tel. +1 703/448-8700 x3725 - FAX +1 703/883-1514 Belief-L, GLB-News -Press -Discuss, SoftRevu List Owner/Editor http://www.cais.com/atropos/ - "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 10:00:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id JAA26602 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:44:25 -0700 Received: from hp9000.ensi.rnrt.tn ([193.95.17.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA26594 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 09:44:14 -0700 From: hamida@ensi.rnrt.tn Message-Id: <199508301644.JAA26594@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: by hp9000.ensi.rnrt.tn (16.6/16.2) id AA25319; Wed, 30 Aug 95 17:43:31 +0100 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 95 17:43:31 +0100 Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i have installed majordomo 1.93 i my computer (sparc 5 with solaris 2.3) i have added new aliases (like sample.aliases) in my /etc/aliases and i have created a new list (listensi) my probleme is that every time i try to communicate with majordomo, i receive a mail telling me not out of memory 554 "/usr...../wrapper majordomo" unknown mailer 1 ####################### # Local aliases below # ####################### owner-owner: postmaster # # Majordomo # majordomo: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper majordomo" majordomo-owner: atelier owner-majordomo: atelier # # Sample mailing list # listensi: "|/usr/local/mail/majordomo/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l sample -f Sample-Owner -h sunensi1 -s sample-outgoing" owner-listensi: atelier listensi-outgoing: :include:/usr/local/mail/lists/listensi, listensi-archive owner-sample-outgoing: listensi-owner listensi-archive: /usr/local/mail/mlists/listensi owner-listensi-archive: atelier listensi-request: "|/usr/local/majordomo-1.93/wrapper request-answer listensi" owner-listensi-request: atelier listensi-approval: atelier listensi-owner: atelier owner-listensi-owner: atelier Mercie A+ From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 15:00:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id OAA14567 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:59:35 -0700 Received: from nic.iii.net (nic.iii.net [199.232.40.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA14556 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 14:59:29 -0700 Received: from kenmoto1.iii.net (kenmoto1.iii.net [199.232.41.216]) by nic.iii.net (8.6.8/8.6.6) with SMTP id RAA17902; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:57:32 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:57:32 -0400 Message-Id: <199508302157.RAA17902@nic.iii.net> X-Sender: bourbeau@mail.iii.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PMDAtropos@aol.com From: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Subject: Re: Confused AOL Users Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-Mailer: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >This is an update for list owners who have AOL subscribers, particularly >subscribers who receive your list as a digest. > >I've had a couple of reports that digests are being cut off when received by >AOL subscribers. Recently received information leads me to suspect this is >not the case. > >If your digest is routinely larger than 25k, it will arrive in the AOL member >mailbox as an attachment, rather than a single file or (as previously) >several chunks. If the AOL member tries to open the attachment using the AOL >software (or a text editor which uses the standard Windows or Mac text >tools), they will not see the entire message -- it will either not be >displayed or will be cut off at about 31k, depending on the application being >used. Sounds like a pretty foolish thing you folks have done. You implement mime attachments knowing full well your own software will not open the message. As an AOL user (kenmoto), I am very concerned about this lack of planning and ask that you reverse this change until your own software is capable of opening the item. >The best solution at this time is to have the user use either a word >processor (Microsoft Word, for example) or a text editor which can handle >>32k of text to open the attachment. Windows users can use Windows Write, and >I have personally found BBEdit to be a capable application for the Macintosh. As a list manager, I ask why you expect me to educate your users about these changes and how to cope with them. As an AOL subscriber, I wonder why an explanation of these changes and how to cope with them never appeared in my email box or as a "please read" notice on the Welcome screen. AOL needs to take some action to either reverse this change or educate their users. Otherwise, I will be forced to resign my role as AOL user, and use my role as list manager to persuade others to do the same. Best to ya from the Sticks o New Hampshire, Kenny *********************************************************** Ken Bourbeau Home Page: http://www.iii.net/users/bourbeau/ Maria McKee Mailinglist email: mckeefan-request@nic.iii.net Rod Stewart Digest email: rodfans@kenmoto1.iii.net *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 16:00:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id PAA17330 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 15:36:37 -0700 Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA17322 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 15:36:33 -0700 Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id QAA04333 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:35:04 -0600 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199508302235.QAA04333@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Confused AOL Users To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:35:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 889 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > If your digest is routinely larger than 25k, it will arrive in the AOL member > mailbox as an attachment, rather than a single file or (as previously) > several chunks. If the AOL member tries to open the attachment using the AOL > software (or a text editor which uses the standard Windows or Mac text > tools), they will not see the entire message -- it will either not be > displayed or will be cut off at about 31k, depending on the application being > used. I'm afraid I'm with Ken on this one -- forcing incoming messages into a format that your software can't even read properly is a very very foolish policy. I doubt you're the person who instigated it, David, but I've got to ask that you do whatever you can get this policy changed. (It *was* only intended as a temporary patch for some other situation, wasn't it?) -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 16:30:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA20496 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:19:28 -0700 Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.142]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA20480 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:19:23 -0700 Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id SAA05794; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:18:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199508302318.SAA05794@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Confused AOL Management To: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 18:18:40 -0500 (CDT) Cc: PMDAtropos@aol.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199508302157.RAA17902@nic.iii.net> from "Ken Bourbeau" at Aug 30, 95 05:57:32 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 682 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken Bourbeau said... | |Sounds like a pretty foolish thing you folks have done. You implement |mime attachments knowing full well your own software will not |open the message. As an AOL user (kenmoto), I am very concerned about |this lack of planning and ask that you reverse this change until |your own software is capable of opening the item. Not to reinforce stereotypes or cast aspersions, but this sort of silliness (not Ken's note, but what he responded to) is a lot of why AOL still doesn't have a real good name on the Internet. Think things through. Consider the realworld implications on your users. How do others do it? [Don't get trapped in NIH Syendrome.] -Miles From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 17:02:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id QAA22758 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:50:37 -0700 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com (mail04.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.53]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA22749 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:50:33 -0700 From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA12908; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 19:49:06 -0400 Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 19:49:06 -0400 Message-ID: <950830194852_87443797@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Confused AOL Users Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-08-30 18:08:50 EDT, bourbeau@kenmoto1.iii.net (Ken Bourbeau) writes: [ information about current mail system clipped ] >Sounds like a pretty foolish thing you folks have done. I've forwarded Mr Bourbeau's comments to our mail developers; other comments can be sent to postmaster@aol.com for forwarding. I would like to mention that (a) I'm not in charge of mail development and (b) I'm only providing the information to help list owners deal with the situation. I'm *not* asking you to play the role of educator, nor am I making excuses or apologies for decisions I had no part of. >You implement >mime attachments knowing full well your own software will not >open the message. Actually, I'm told that the large-text > attachment process is separate from MIME (though forwarding the attachment out to the Internet does make it a MIME attachment). There has been a long-standing request by AOL members that the "chunking" function be gotten rid of. I also understand that the option to go back to the old "chunking" form will be provided in the near future. AOL client software which uses a text container capable of opening >32k files is planned, I believe for the next version. The current software uses the standard Mac and Windows text container, which cannot display more than ~32k of text. Again, I only posted the message in an effort to provide list owners with more information so that they can be prepared should AOL members ask them about the situation. I'm not asking you to take on the role of educator (you can point members at AOL TechLive or me, if you prefer), neither am I justifying or trying to excuse the situation. Further flames are respectfully requested to go to private mail. --David O'Donnell From list-managers-owner Wed Aug 30 17:32:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) id RAA23543 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 17:05:46 -0700 Received: from relay4.UU.NET (relay4.UU.NET [192.48.96.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.6.9/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA04916 for ; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:05:24 -0700 Received: from postmodern.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzfbg13820; Wed, 30 Aug 1995 15:03:59 -0400 Received: by postmodern.com (5.0/SMI-SVR4/950522-mcb1) id AA00269; Wed, 30 Aug 95 12:03:11 PDT Message-Id: <9508301903.AA00269@postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 1995 12:03:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: <199508301644.JAA26594@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: hamida@ensi.rnrt.tn Subject: Majordomo questions Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com content-length: 486 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Reminder -- please do not post Majordomo-specific (or any other software package-specific) technical questions to list-managers. There is a Majordomo users forum (majordomo-users); for information send a message to majordomo-users-request@greatcircle.com, or to subscribe, send the command subscribe majordomo-users to (where else) majordomo@greatcircle.com. Thanks, -- Michael C. Berch Postmaster & list manager, Great Circle Associates mcb@greatcircle.com / mcb@postmodern.com