From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 00:22:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id AAA23233 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 00:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA23226 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 00:18:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 40; Wed, 01 Nov 1995 00:18:19 PST Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 00:18:16 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00998B78.0108E6A4.40@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: People requesting list information Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else here gotten a message from Diane Kovacs (diane@kovacs.com) requesting information concerning the lists that your server supports? -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 09:53:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA07452 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:51:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.211]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA07445 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:51:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id LAA05229; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:52:39 -0600 Message-Id: <199511011752.LAA05229@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: philosophy: linked vs. autonomous list servers To: PMDAtropos@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:52:39 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <951031215901_94712365@emout04.mail.aol.com> from "PMDAtropos@aol.com" at Oct 31, 95 09:59:03 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk PMDAtropos@aol.com said... | |If you're running a LISTSERV list, one way to pretty much seal out spammers |is to use the SUBSCRIPTION=By Owner option along with SEND=Private. You'll |need to approve every person who joins the list, but that barrier should be |effective against virtually all mailspammers. We started to switch our majordomo list to this config. It already requires subscription approval, but tying senders to users wouldn't work, because many of the members post from multiple accounts, or at least multiple systems within domains that don't hide system names. This requires maintaining a separate list of posters from members, and in a couple of cases, would require many, many entries for one person (some ISPs give dialup SLIP/PPP customers a system name based on the line they dial in on, as in slip142.isp.com). From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 10:26:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA08055 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 10:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from vger.tripcom.com (vger.tripcom.com [198.5.220.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA08046 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 10:08:26 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.tripcom.com with id MAA20352 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:07:43 -0600 From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199511011807.MAA20352@vger.tripcom.com> Subject: How do you handle bouncing messages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:07:42 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've recently set up a list that now has about 70 people on it. I have been surprised to see so many delivery problems. A couple of the subscribers are in other countries, while others are at major U.S. companies like Microsoft, AT&T, etc.. I've seen intermittant sendmail configuration errors (won't talk to itself, etc.), destination unreachables, host not found, etc. In the majority of instances they are soft errors so the mail eventually gets through, other times they are hard so it's bounced and I'm left to decide what to do. This is a new list so it's important to me that everyone has a good impression and no one remove themself because they find they are losing mail. I'm reluctant to move people to the bounces list as soon as there's a problem and was wondering how other folks typically handle this - do you move people at the first sign of problems? Do you notify the users that there have been problems? Etc. BTW, here's my favorite of all the problems I've seen: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: microsoft.com.: no data known) In case anyone is interested the list is for the discussions of triplets and other multiples. Send mail to majordomo@tripcom.com if you're interested. I'm sure you know the rest... Thanks in advance for all replies! -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.com From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 11:37:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA10042 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:15:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA10034 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQznzw19457; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 14:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id MAA00783 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:08:17 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199511011908.MAA00783@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: philosophy: linked vs. autonomous list servers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:08:17 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > We started to switch our majordomo list to this config. It already > requires subscription approval, but tying senders to users wouldn't > work, because many of the members post from multiple accounts, or at > least multiple systems within domains that don't hide system names. If you turn on domain-munging under majordomo, someone who's subscribed at foo@bar.com can post from foo@.bar.com. > (some ISPs give dialup SLIP/PPP customers a system name based on the > line they dial in on, as in slip142.isp.com). Uh, you mean, like, outgoing mail has a different "From" address every time they connect? Sounds kind of broken to me... -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 11:59:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA09832 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:05:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA09817 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQznzw16286; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 14:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id NAA27293; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 13:53:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199511011853.NAA27293@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Adam Horwitz cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: How do you handle bouncing messages In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Nov 1995 12:07:42 CST." <199511011807.MAA20352@vger.tripcom.com> Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 13:53:06 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk How I handle bounced mail: 1. our local mail system can deal with mail to user+folder@cs.utk.edu, and the mail gets delivered to that particular folder. All of my bounced mail goes to a special folder rather than to my personal inbox, so I don't have to deal with it at the same time as my regular mail. 2. "temporary" bounces of the form "mail delivery didn't succeed within X amount of time but we're still trying" get recognized by filters and deleted before I ever see them. 3. other bounces: from time to time I clean out my "bounces" folder as follows: a. if the mail bounced because of "user unknown", "host unknown", or some other reason that looks like the user is really gone, I: delete the user from the list, and send a message to the bounced address saying "you've been deleted because your mail bounced", including a copy of the bounced message. In a surprising number of cases the message gets through and the person asks to be re-added to the list, but this way they find out that there's a problem with their mail system. b. if the mail bounced because of "local configuration error", a forwarding loop, or something that looks like the user might still exist but their mail system is messed up, I send a warning message to that address and the user's postmaster and sometimes also to the DNS administrator for the recipient's domain or the technical contact person for that domain. I have scripts to do both of these, so it's just typing in a one-line command. 4. after processing a bounce for a recipient, I then delete every other bounced message in the folder for that recipient, so I don't have to deal with duplicates. (this is another one-line command...usually "rmm `pick -search !$`" does the job) Keith From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:23:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA15306 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA15299 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA29038; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:11:57 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:11:57 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: mstrait@CAPACCESS.ORG, Lunardi@EWORLD.COM Subject: Returned Mail: Undeliverable (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Well, it also apears that the address dataquest@eworld.com does not/no longer exists! ****************************************************************************** Daniel Pfarrer SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov CEO of GSP Services, Inc. CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com FTP: village.ios.com:/pub/users/gsp/ ****************************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 15:57:06 -0800 From: Mailer-daemon@hp1.online.apple.com To: gsp@village.ios.com Subject: Returned Mail: Undeliverable The mail you sent could not be delivered to: 550 dataquest is not a known user The text you sent follows: >From gsp@village.ios.com Wed Nov 1 15:56:53 1995 Return-Path: gsp@village.ios.com Received: from village.ios.com (root@village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by hp1.online.apple.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA20341; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 15:56:46 -0800 Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA27221; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:53:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: DataQuest@eWorld.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mstrait@CAPACCESS.ORG, Lunardi@eWorld.com Subject: Fresh Spam! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Did anyone else get this slice of spam? It appears to be hitting mainly CapAccess users, but it is well planned to scam just about anyone. This message is being cc'ed to the Administrative contacts at both the CapAccess Freenet and E-world (where the msg. is orig. sent from). I'm tired of these junk messages in my mailbox! ****************************************************************************** Daniel Pfarrer SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov CEO of GSP Services, Inc. CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com FTP: village.ios.com:/pub/users/gsp/ ****************************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 16:28:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA14781 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:01:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA14774 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id QAA10552; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 16:01:05 -0800 Received: from village.ios.com(198.4.75.49) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma010547; Wed Nov 1 16:00:03 1995 Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA27221; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:53:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: DataQuest@eWorld.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, mstrait@CAPACCESS.ORG, Lunardi@eWorld.com Subject: Fresh Spam! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Did anyone else get this slice of spam? It appears to be hitting mainly CapAccess users, but it is well planned to scam just about anyone. This message is being cc'ed to the Administrative contacts at both the CapAccess Freenet and E-world (where the msg. is orig. sent from). I'm tired of these junk messages in my mailbox! ****************************************************************************** Daniel Pfarrer SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov CEO of GSP Services, Inc. CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com FTP: village.ios.com:/pub/users/gsp/ ****************************************************************************** ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From DataQuest@eworld.com Wed Nov 1 01:26:54 1995 Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org (cap1.CapAccess.org [198.69.201.50]) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA18568 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 01:26:51 -0500 From: DataQuest@eworld.com Received: from hp1.online.apple.com (hp1.online.apple.com [192.215.65.17]) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA10810; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 01:30:29 -0500 Received: by hp1.online.apple.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA05112; Tue, 31 Oct 1995 21:40:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 21:40:47 -0800 Message-ID: <951031212602_17602538@hp1.online.apple.com> Subject: Information Technology Newsletter Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: X-Status: Status: OR Thank you for taking the time to read this note. I am contacting you with regards to an important publication called the DataQuest Journal which helps business people and scholars alike by providing comprehensive information regarding the electronic village in which we all live. As the President of Executive Information Services (EIS), I am contacting you personally as I know the DataQuest Journal provides information that will significantly help you in your professional or academic pursuits. I'm in business to provide high-level information for detail-oriented PROFESSIONALS, people seeking advancement, and assist students in their search for a career in this exceedingly competitive marketplace. This publication is IDEAL for busy IS EXECUTIVES who need make "do or die" information based decisions. Never ENOUGH Time ----------------- There are numerous Computer, Internet, and IS Newsletters on the market, none of which contain more than mere shreds of USEFUL information. As a devoted IS Executive I needed an INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY source of news that would dig deeply into the material to provide the ESSENTIAL information I needed for my business endeavors. BUSY EXECUTIVES DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO READ HUNDREDS OF PUBLICATIONS TO FIND INFORMATION THAT IS A NECESSITY! I created the DataQuest Journal to be a SINGLE, COMPREHENSIVE, EXECUTIVE INFORMATION SOURCE that covers the facts in "Plain Talk." NEWS tailored around the INDIVIDUAL Subscriber ---------------------------------------------- DataQuest is designed to provide information you can use. Therefore, to get articles that "hit home" I am constantly open to subscriber requests for specific article topics. This is a publication FOR THE PEOPLE, therefore it's time there was a newsletter that is truly "interactive" and responds to YOUR NEEDS. DataQuest Journal Specifications -------------------------------- DataQuest is published monthly as an 8 page newsletter. It is in a league of its own without any competition. It contains: * NO Advertisement * UNBIASED Reviews and Commentaries * EXTENSIVE and INDEPENDENT Research and Analysis The Journal provides information which is INVALUABLE to busy executives, students, computer, and detail oriented professionals. This is simply the ONLY authoritative source of industry information for anyone whose livelihood involves computers. DataQuest is divided into six sections: Section 1) Executive Overviews Section 2) Mainframe, Midrange, and Client/Server Product Reviews Section 3) Comprehensive VENDOR Profiles Section 4) Finding a JOB and Advancing your CAREER Section 5) Money MAKING INTERNET Resources Section 6) International vs. U.S. Corporate Operations DataQuest is my effort to give something back to EXECUTIVES and SCHOLARS alike where information is at the core of business. It provides ESSENTIAL facts accompanied by charts and tables which give a graphic representation of the current DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL marketplace. DataQuest is information that NEVER goes out of date. The DataQuest Journal costs: $295/year for 12 issues ($325 outside U.S.) However, CHARTER SUBSCRIBERS will receive the INTRODUCTORY RATE of: $150/year ($175 outside U.S.) --> Shipped FIRST CLASS/AIR MAIL in the U.S. and Around the World If you prefer to receive the ELECTRONIC EDITION instead please inquire within. PLEASE REMEMBER: --------------- 1) Mail payment (Check or Money order ONLY in U.S. Dollars) to: ------------------------------- Executive Information Services P.O. Box 188115 Carlsbad, CA. 92009 ------------------------------- 2) E-mail a message to: DataQuest@eWorld.com Subject: SUBSCRIBE Body of Message: Your name and address IF YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED: -------------------------- Please delete this message if you don't want to receive any more information. This is not "spam" so don't be the one who throws stones. This journal is designed for Information Professionals who have LOST their job, those who NEED to advance their career, students who are fearful of a LESS THAN ACCEPTING job market, and busy IS EXECUTIVES whose extensive career depends on timely, accurate, and factual information. Both the United States and Global Economic situations are slippery at best, therefore I have dedicated ALL my time and company's resources to produce this journal to HELP people. If you don't want it, don't respond. There is a great need for this information, and as an honest professional this is my extensive effort to give something VERY IMPORTANT back to the business community. Thank you. Respectfully yours, Stewart Miller President Executive Information Services P.S. This in an EXECUTIVE NEWSLETTER in a league of its OWN. Upon request, I will e-mail you a current sample electronic edition of the DataQuest Journal. Best wishes for your continued and future success! ************* E.I.S. ************** ********************************* * Executive Information Services | DataQuest Journal * *-----------------------------------|---------------------------------* * P.O. Box 188115 | The ONLY EXECUTIVE SOURCE of * * Carlsbad, CA. 92009 | Authoritative and Definitive * * | INFORMATION TECHNOLOGIES * * U.S.A. | RESEARCH * *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-* *===================================| "Combining Scientific Accuracy * * E-Mail: DataQuest@eWorld.com | with Emerging Technologies" * *********************************** ********************************* From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 17:29:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA17685 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA17676 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA28503; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 17:07:59 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA04603; Wed, 1 Nov 95 17:07:48 -0800 Date: Wed, 1 Nov 95 17:07:48 -0800 Message-Id: <9511020107.AA04603@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Enough is enough Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk O mighty listmaster: Is anyone besides me getting more than their fill of these "here is a spam I got" type of messages out of this list? Spamming is now a sad fact of life on the Internet, and we all have our own strong opinions about it and what to do about it. These postings of the latest-and-greatest spam are becoming more tiresome than productive. They tend to bury the more worthwhile topics on list-managers. So, could we call a moratorium on this subject? If there is enough interest, perhaps we could spin off a spam-frenzy@GreatCircle.COM list. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 18:25:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA20989 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:11:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (cuci.ixe.net [205.244.45.192]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id SAA20974 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.1/BuGless_1.02) id DAA26482 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 03:10:55 +0100 Message-Id: <199511020210.DAA26482@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 03:10:55 +0100 In-Reply-To: Keith Moore's message as of 1995 Nov 1 Wed 13:53. <199511011853.NAA27293@wilma.cs.utk.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: How do you handle bouncing messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Warning, carefully disguised plug for SmartList ahead :-). Keith Moore wrote: >How I handle bounced mail: >2. "temporary" bounces of the form "mail delivery didn't succeed within > X amount of time but we're still trying" get recognized by filters > and deleted before I ever see them. SmartList has this filter built-in. >3. other bounces: from time to time I clean out my "bounces" folder > as follows: > a. if the mail bounced because of "user unknown", "host unknown", > or some other reason that looks like the user is really gone, I: > delete the user from the list, and send a message to the bounced > address saying "you've been deleted because your mail bounced", > including a copy of the bounced message. In a surprising number This is exactly what SmartList does automatically for you. > b. if the mail bounced because of "local configuration error", > a forwarding loop, or something that looks like the user might > still exist but their mail system is messed up, I send a warning > message to that address and the user's postmaster and sometimes > also to the DNS administrator for the recipient's domain or the > technical contact person for that domain. Alas, SmartList follows the same procedure here as for 3a. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). The eleventh commandment: Thou shalt not re-curse! From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 18:53:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA21670 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:30:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA21655 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA29696 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Wed, 1 Nov 1995 20:20:36 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA20837 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:45:05 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511020045.SAA20837@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: How do you handle bouncing messages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 18:45:04 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I have been surprised to see so many delivery problems. Sounds about par. One of my lists fluctuates in volume and when it goes high, I can get 150-200 bounce notices a day (this list only has about 190 subscribers on it). > This is a new list so it's important to me that everyone has a good > impression and no one remove themself because they find they are > losing mail. I'm reluctant to move people to the bounces list as > soon as there's a problem and was wondering how other folks typically > handle this - do you move people at the first sign of problems? I kick their lazy asses off the list... Oh, sorry, I shouldn't watch Fresh Prince of Bellaire before reading mail. Ahem. On my new list, if they bounce, they're off. On my other list, it depends on the kind of bounce, how long the user has been a member, and how much bounced mail I'm getting back overall. If the list is important to the user, they will find their way back on. > Do you notify the users that there have been problems? How do you notify someone whose mail is bouncing? > BTW, here's my favorite of all the problems I've seen: Mine was the one where I was informed some user wasn't a typewriter.... From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 1 20:23:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA26165 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:55:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA26158 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:55:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Wed, 1 Nov 95 19:55 PST Message-Id: Subject: Re: Enough is enough To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:55:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian J. Murrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9511020107.AA04603@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Nov 1, 95 05:07:48 pm X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by Alan Deikman: > Is anyone besides me getting more than their fill of these "here is > a spam I got" type of messages out of this list? Spamming is now > a sad fact of life on the Internet, and we all have our own strong > opinions about it and what to do about it. These postings of the > latest-and-greatest spam are becoming more tiresome than productive. Here here!! b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 08:14:47 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA18662 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 07:45:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (cuci.ixe.net [205.244.45.192]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id HAA18653 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.1/BuGless_1.02) id QAA08242 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 16:45:16 +0100 Message-Id: <199511021545.QAA08242@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 16:45:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: Alan Deikman's message as of 1995 Nov 1 Wed 17:07. <9511020107.AA04603@znyx.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Enough is enough Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Alan Deikman wrote: >opinions about it and what to do about it. These postings of the >latest-and-greatest spam are becoming more tiresome than productive. >They tend to bury the more worthwhile topics on list-managers. >So, could we call a moratorium on this subject? If there is enough >interest, perhaps we could spin off a spam-frenzy@GreatCircle.COM >list. Hmmm..., well, I don't think anyone would want to be on that list... Except, as it happens, I'm currently collecting E-mail spams (in order to extract characteristics which might be used to automatically detect and divert possible spam messages to, mostly, mailinglists). So, if anyone receives any spams in, say, the next month, I'd appreciate a copy. But only, for the next month. Please watch this mailinglist, because if I'm going to be snowed under in sample spams I'll ask here to stop spamming me :-). The most valuable would be copies that are in a pristine state (i.e. exactly the way they (header and body) looked *before* going through your mailinglist). -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). On a computer printed rental car receipt: *FOR GREAT BLOW JOBS (619) 279-2900* From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 08:24:00 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA19235 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:07:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA19228 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:07:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA09874; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 11:07:23 -0500 Message-Id: <9511021607.AA09874@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Enough is enough In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 01 Nov 95 17:07:48 PST." <9511020107.AA04603@znyx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 02 Nov 95 11:07:19 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Is anyone besides me getting more than their fill of these "here is >a spam I got" type of messages out of this list? >[...] > >So, could we call a moratorium on this subject? Personally I appreciate early notification of spams-in-progress that I receive through this list. I have added a trap section to my list script where I can add identifying characteristics of known spams (typically From: or Subject: header regexps) so they will be trapped if they occur. Spam notifications posted on this list *have* saved my lists from some spams already. (Also, the newsfeed-gateway-delay script I posted here recently trapped it's first spam last weekend.) I vote that we continue to post *early-warnings* here. Note: "This one hit my list last week while I was on vacation" is less than interesting. Particularly useful, I think, are Stephanie's early- warning-detector hits from people running the PAML. IMO, this list is low-enough traffic that spam warnings are not burying anything. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 08:36:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA18841 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 07:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA18834 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 07:52:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id KAA15184 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:51:56 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:51:56 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199511021551.KAA15184@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: linked vs autonomous list servers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >But the philosophy of the LISTSERV system is that ALL list servers >are linked together, they share information on what lists are available. > >Majordomo, on the other hand, and SmartList, do not share this linking >philosophy. > >So there are these two philosophies about mailing lists, as reflected in these >various software implementations. I wouldn't read *too* much into the differing approaches. LISTSERV grew up in the BITNET world; BITNET was a tree-structured network, in which sites could only talk to their nearest neighbors. (Due to the lack of a direct link, BITNET traffic between UKentucky and ULouisville once traversed *8* sites!) Keep in mind, too, that BITNET did not use routers _per se_; each site along the way had to actively process each transaction. In that environment, it made perfect sense for the LISTSERVs to communicate as peers; since every site was acting as a router for someone else, this peered approach was far more effective than routing all those individual requests across the net. Over in the uucp and nascent TCP/IP Internet world, however, the picture was different. It was a simple matter for a TCP/IP site (and even some uucp sites) to connect directly to the destination site and drop the mail; intermediate sites would not be bothered by this. Internet sites did not face the traffic management problem suffered by BITNET; once placed on the network, the routers - instead of the actual intermediate sites - han- dled traffic flow. Given that environment, peering listservers would actually *create* a middleman! I don't perceive these differences as philosophical. I see them as the natural reactions to the network topologies/technologies in use at the time. For tree-structured BITNET, peering servers was a *HUGE* win; for the TCP/IP Internet, peering would actually add steps to the process. Each of these decisions was a no-brainer in terms of network load and burden on participating sites. It will be interesting to see how the LISTSERV model works out on the TCP/IP Internet in the long term. Personally, I foresee the larger lists benefitting from the peering approach; I don't know if smaller lists will see *that* much of a windfall. --Wes From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 09:27:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA20260 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:58:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA20253 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:58:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Thu, 2 Nov 95 08:58 PST Message-Id: Subject: Re: Enough is enough To: mkc@graphics.cornell.edu (Mitch Collinsworth) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 08:58:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian J. Murrell" Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9511021607.AA09874@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> from "Mitch Collinsworth" at Nov 2, 95 11:07:19 am X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL17] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by Mitch Collinsworth: > Personally I appreciate early notification of spams-in-progress that > I receive through this list. Then why not start an "early-spam" mailing list where listmanagers can send their warnings?? > I vote that we continue to post *early-warnings* here. Note: "This > one hit my list last week while I was on vacation" is less than > interesting. Particularly useful, I think, are Stephanie's early- > warning-detector hits from people running the PAML. I vote we don't clutter up the listmanagers mailing list with this stuff. I'm already starting to get heavy "d-fingered" as soon as I see listmanager mail in my mailbox. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 10:56:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA22919 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA22910 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:31:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511021831.KAA22910@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7268; Thu, 02 Nov 95 20:09:46 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 6193; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 18:45:24 +0200 Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 18:43:02 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: linked vs autonomous list servers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, Wes Morgan In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:51:56 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Peering has been considered obsolete on BITNET since 1988-1990, depending on who you ask, with the exception however that it has the nice side effect of creating multiple online copies of the list archives, which is a good thing for large lists. This way not everyone hits on a single server and there are other copies available if it goes down. It can be accomplished with simple slave lists of course. Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 11:24:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA23866 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:58:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA23859 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:58:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA08329 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Thu, 2 Nov 1995 12:35:51 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA01855 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 11:03:41 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511021703.LAA01855@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Enough is enough To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 11:03:39 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I vote that we continue to post *early-warnings* here. Note: "This > one hit my list last week while I was on vacation" is less than > interesting. Particularly useful, I think, are Stephanie's early- > warning-detector hits from people running the PAML. On the same tack, I appreciate the warnings because the spams often come in looking like mailing list correspondence (pointers to web sites, notifications of commercial mailing lists and stuff). Knowing beforehand that they're spams would save me the trouble of writing back and asking for more information, etc, etc. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 13:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA28088 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 13:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk (livbird.liv.ac.uk [138.253.31.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA28080 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 13:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk by liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk via Local channel id <04132-0@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk>; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 21:12:58 +0000 Subject: Re: Enough is enough To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 21:12:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <9511020107.AA04603@znyx.com> from "Alan Deikman" at Nov 1, 95 05:07:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 ME7] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alan Thew Message-ID: <"liverbird.li:041340:951102211301"@liverbird.liverpool.ac.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In the last mail, Alan Deikman wrote: > > > O mighty listmaster: > > Is anyone besides me getting more than their fill of these "here is > a spam I got" type of messages out of this list? Spamming is now > a sad fact of life on the Internet, and we all have our own strong > opinions about it and what to do about it. These postings of the > latest-and-greatest spam are becoming more tiresome than productive. > They tend to bury the more worthwhile topics on list-managers. > > So, could we call a moratorium on this subject? If there is enough > interest, perhaps we could spin off a spam-frenzy@GreatCircle.COM > list. > 2 lists already on spams. I vote for the info though. -- Alan Thew alan.thew@liv.ac.uk ...!uknet!liv!alan.thew Tel: +44 151 794-4497 University of Liverpool, Computing Services Fax: +44 151 794-4442 From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 2 17:24:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA06568 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 2 Nov 1995 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA23226 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 1995 19:01:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511020301.TAA23226@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 22:01:08 EST Subject: Re: Enough is enough Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > So, could we call a moratorium on this subject? If there is enough > interest, perhaps we could spin off a spam-frenzy@GreatCircle.COM > list. No need. There's already SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. To subscribe, send "SIGNON SPAM-L your name" to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 00:23:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id AAA18594 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 00:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA18587 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 00:10:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511030810.AAA18587@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3183; Fri, 03 Nov 95 10:09:59 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with RFC822 id 9008; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:09:59 +0200 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:05:36 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: philosophy: linked vs. autonomous list servers To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com, ckk@uchicago.edu In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:01:19 -0600 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:01:19 -0600 ckk@uchicago.edu said: >Majordomo, on the other hand, and SmartList, do not share this linking >philosophy. They implement an autonomous list server host. Many list >managers require privacy in varying degrees, and would actively RESIST >having their list info shared among all list servers in the world. > >So there are these two philosophies about mailing lists, as reflected in >these various software implementations. There are 21,811 LISTSERV lists, of which only 7,518 are globally advertised. The rest are completely private, you have no way to find the name unless someone tells you. On top of that there are servers which are not linked to the worldwide LISTSERV network at all (mostly internal corporate servers where not one list should be advertised). So this isn't a philosophical difference, it's a simple policy decision. Eric From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 09:34:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04433 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 09:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA04426 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 09:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id JAA16449; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 09:10:30 -0800 Received: from ns.fsc.follett.com(192.217.228.33) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma016447; Fri Nov 3 09:10:25 1995 Received: by fscmail.fsc.follett.com id <12684>; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 11:12:40 -0600 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:07:59 -0600 From: "Scharf, Sandy" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Wrapper - Permission Denied Message-Id: <95Nov3.111240cst.12684@fscmail.fsc.follett.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am running Majordomo 1.93 on a Linux 1.21 machine. I think everything is installed right, however I get permission denied when it tries to run the wrapper. I have read and re-read all the FAQ's and info. on this error, but can't seem to fix it. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks, Sandy ------------------------------------------------------------------ @..@ Ribit Sandy Scharf (----) Ribit Follett Software Company, McHenry, IL, U.S.A. ( >__< ) sscharf@fsc.follett.com ^^ ~~ ^^ ------------------------------------------------------------------ From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 3 10:57:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA06266 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:25:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA06255 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 10:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id NAA02688; Fri, 3 Nov 1995 13:25:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 13:25:11 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199511031825.NAA02688@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: spam-l@eva.dc.lsoft.com Subject: Re: Response from ixc.net (magazine spam) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As you may remember, ixc.net was implicated as a source of the infamous magazine spam. I received the attached note today, in response to an inquiry I dispatched last week. As the ixc.net contact suggests, I'll be sending a note to the relevant USPS postmaster; you may wish to do the same, since ixc.net was kind enough to provide the real-world contact address for this scam. --Wes >From: Kathryn Kelly >Subject: Spamming complaint >To: morgan@engr.uky.edu > >Dear Mr. Morgan: > >We regret that you received electronic mail of an inappropriate nature >from our site, ixc.net, about magazine subscriptions. > >This was out of our control as we provide free internet accounts to >those who need them. > >We have turned off our program to allow automatic creation of new accounts. >We now check each user's phone number and are not opening multiple accounts >for the same individual. > >We wish you to do something for us. >We have the address where the individual sending out this >material receives his physical mail. >Please send a letter of complaint to the postmaster at > Postmaster > Staten Island NY 10312 >Regarding the person at this address: > Magazine Club Inquiry Center > Att. Internet Services Department > P. O. Box 120990 > Staten Island NY 10312 0990 From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 6 21:22:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA05056 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA05049 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:13:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.engr.sgi.com:list-managers@greatcircle.com> id VAA01109; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:13:23 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@greatcircle.com id VAA12566; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:13:15 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199511070513.VAA12566@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Subscription Forgery Alert To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:12:59 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got six of these. It appears that Kyle Hsieh-Chen is getting mass-subscribed to a LOT of mailing lists without his knowledge by Roger Carasso or someone pretending to be Roger Carasso. The requests I got appear to be forged in Kyle's name, as only the SYSLOG showed they actually came from rdc@carasso.com. It was the bad formatting of the request that caused Majordomo to trap it and send it to me for further examination (the mailing address wasn't separated from the name by any punctuation or brackets). -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 09:38:32 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA21813 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 07:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA21808 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 07:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jjflash@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA21341 ; for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:51:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: jjflash X-Sender: jjflash@access5.digex.net To: Roland Zuk cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Sites Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BTW I have actually found one site that is very reasonably priced: POBOX. They charged me $50 for the first year (including setup and transfer of current subscribers) and then it will cost me $20/year after that, regardless of volume. They also have a pretty unique feature (IMHO) for maintenance of the list. They have a web site (called WebDomo) where the list-owner with the correct password can do all necessary maintenance. Their home page url is: http://www.pobox.com Jack ************************************************* Jack Schnapper - jjflash@digex.net ------------------------------------------------- http://www.access.digex.net/~jjflash/jjflash.html ************************************************* From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 09:38:33 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA09419 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id XAA09411 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:57:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage951022) id CAA21439 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 02:56:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 02:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199511070756.CAA21439@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i'm blessed too :-) >From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) >Subject: Subscription Forgery Alert >Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:12:59 -0800 (PST) >I got six of these. It appears that Kyle Hsieh-Chen > is getting mass-subscribed to a LOT of mailing >lists without his knowledge by Roger Carasso or >someone pretending to be Roger Carasso. The requests I got appear to i noticed the following because of the "To:" line actually... ---begin sloppy message to harley-request@thinkage.on.ca--- >From rdc@carasso.com Mon Nov 6 21:09:48 1995 >Received: from shellx.best.com (rdc@shellx.best.com [206.86.0.11]) > by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage951022) with SMTP > id VAA00800; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:08:55 -0500 (EST) >Received: (rdc@localhost) by shellx.best.com (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.5) id VAA17132; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:52:06 GMT >Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:52:06 GMT >Message-Id: <199511062152.VAA17132@shellx.best.com> >From: weichen@chaph.usc.edu (Kyle Hsieh-Chen) >Sender: >Reply-To: >To: lists@shellx.best.com >Subject: Please subscribe me... > > > > >subscribe weichen@chaph.usc.edu Kyle Hsieh-Chen > >Please subscribe me to your list. Thank you much. >... From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 09:38:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA07877 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA07872 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 22; Mon, 06 Nov 1995 23:16:57 PST Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 23:16:53 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00999026.6C673F56.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Subscription Forgery Alert Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"close@lunch.engr.sgi.com" 6-NOV-1995 21:35:15.68 > Subj: Subscription Forgery Alert > I got six of these. It appears that Kyle Hsieh-Chen > is getting mass-subscribed to a LOT of mailing > lists without his knowledge by Roger Carasso or > someone pretending to be Roger Carasso. The requests I got appear to > be forged in Kyle's name, as only the SYSLOG showed they actually came > from rdc@carasso.com. It was the bad formatting of the request that > caused Majordomo to trap it and send it to me for further examination (the > mailing address wasn't separated from the name by any punctuation or > brackets). > -- > Diane Close > close@lunch.engr.sgi.com > I'm at lunch all day. :-) Diane, Thanks for the heads-up. Since it appears that Carasso "owns" carasso.com, have you notified his ISP? -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 14:22:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA25296 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:15:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA25291 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id OAA28282; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:08:37 -0800 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/911001.SGI) id KAA18586; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:14:12 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) id KAA19604; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:13:41 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199511071813.KAA19604@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:13:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <00999026.6C673F56.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Nov 06, 1995 11:16:53 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller wrote: > > I got six of these. It appears that Kyle Hsieh-Chen > > is getting mass-subscribed to a LOT of mailing > > lists without his knowledge by Roger Carasso or > > Thanks for the heads-up. Since it appears that Carasso "owns" > carasso.com, have you notified his ISP? I did an nslookup, but couldn't figure out what his ISP was. I figured he "owns" carasso.com, but I sent a postmaster complaint there anyway as it might just give him the idea that he's not making any friends this way. :-) Does anyone know who his ISP is? Is it netcom? -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 14:52:55 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA00408 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA00387 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA21013 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:32 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA06274 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:32 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA28010; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199511071637.AA28010@jive.rahul.net> Subject: I got one of those forged requests, too To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:37:28 -0800 (PST) Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Interesting how this wasn't even TO: my request address. jive% whois carasso.com Carasso Design (CARASSO-DOM) 101 Rowland Way Suite 310 Novato, CA 94945 Domain Name: CARASSO.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Carasso, Roger (RC237) info@CARASSO.COM +1 415 388 7333 Record last updated on 27-Jun-95. Record created on 13-Jan-95. Domain servers in listed order: NS.BEST.COM 204.156.128.1 NS2.BEST.COM 204.156.128.10 NS3.BEST.COM 204.156.128.20 > From rdc@carasso.com Mon Nov 6 22:42:14 1995 > Return-Path: > Received: from shellx.best.com by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) > id AA07036; Mon, 6 Nov 95 22:42:14 -0500 > Received: (rdc@localhost) by shellx.best.com (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/8.6.5) id VAA17132; Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:52:06 GMT > Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:52:06 GMT > Message-Id: <199511062152.VAA17132@shellx.best.com> > From: weichen@chaph.usc.edu (Kyle Hsieh-Chen) > Sender: > Reply-To: > To: lists@shellx.best.com > Subject: Please subscribe me... > > > > > subscribe weichen@chaph.usc.edu Kyle Hsieh-Chen > > Please subscribe me to your list. Thank you much. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Kyle Hsieh-Chen "Go America! Number 1" -- Wally George > weichen@chaph.usc.edu > "I Can Banking" -- Ken Sony-Mihara > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > Weichens mailbox is full. I contaced the postmaster and his site, and at best.com and at carasso.com. Jeez, my list just hit 3 years and 780 people today. -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 15:22:57 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA27035 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:17:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from imc.imc.org (center.imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA27028 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:17:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.40.38] (user38.znet.com [165.227.40.38]) by imc.imc.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id PAA15526; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:16:03 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@imc.imc.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:17:19 -0800 To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) From: paulh@imc.org (Paul Hoffman) Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Does anyone know who his ISP is? Is it netcom? Domain servers in listed order: NS.BEST.COM 204.156.128.1 NS2.BEST.COM 204.156.128.10 NS3.BEST.COM 204.156.128.20 I imagine it's best.com. :-) --Paul Hoffman From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 15:34:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA26791 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA26786 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA05110; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:07:16 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17798; Tue, 7 Nov 95 15:07:15 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9511072307.AA17798@siesta> Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:07:15 -0800 (PST) Cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199511071813.KAA19604@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Nov 7, 95 10:13:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close writes: > I did an nslookup, but couldn't figure out what his ISP was. I figured he > "owns" carasso.com, but I sent a postmaster complaint there anyway as it > might just give him the idea that he's not making any friends this way. > :-) Does anyone know who his ISP is? Is it netcom? It appears to be Best.com. You can probably contact Schwartz, Mike [President] (MS142) mykes@BEST.COM for complaints. dig carasso.com mx ; <<>> DiG 2.0 <<>> carasso.com mx ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY , status: NOERROR, id: 6 ;; flags: qr rd ra ; Ques: 1, Ans: 1, Auth: 3, Addit: 4 ;; QUESTIONS: ;; carasso.com, type = MX, class = IN ;; ANSWERS: carasso.com. 259156 MX 10 blob.best.net. ;; AUTHORITY RECORDS: carasso.com. 246197 NS NS.BEST.com. carasso.com. 164100 NS NS2.BEST.com. carasso.com. 164100 NS NS3.BEST.com. ;; ADDITIONAL RECORDS: blob.best.net. 235544 A 204.156.128.88 NS.BEST.com. 259156 A 204.156.128.1 NS2.BEST.com. 244188 A 204.156.128.10 NS3.BEST.com. 244188 A 204.156.128.20 -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Rep., Information International Inc. +1 617 937 9400 (jeffw@triple-i.com, jeffw@jane.camex.com) "I'll be youah race-cah drivah..." -- Jewel "Pahrk youah race-cah in Havahad Yahd?" -- Anja [smoe] From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 16:03:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA27872 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA27866 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:41:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0tCxeW-000Y6VC; Tue, 7 Nov 95 17:42 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:42:04 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199511071813.KAA19604@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Nov 7, 95 10:13:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I was suspicious to start because (1) From_ bore no resemblance to From:; (2) the earliest Received: line was on best.com, which might make sense for mail from carasso.com but not for mail from chaph.usc.edu; (3) the request was addressed to an alias for a bunch of lists ("lists@shellx.best.com") rather than to my list; and (4) the text asked to be added to "your list" rather than giving the list's name. Based on the alias and on the whois info Steve Portigal posted, apparently carasso.com's ISP is best.com. From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 17:54:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA01581 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA01565 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from cthulhu.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.engr.sgi.com:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> id RAA06445; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:55 -0800 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by cthulhu.engr.sgi.com via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/911001.SGI) for <@sgi.engr.sgi.com:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> id QAA13617; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:31:33 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id QAA09141; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:31:29 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199511080031.QAA09141@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:31:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Paul Hoffman" at Nov 07, 1995 03:17:19 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Hoffman wrote: > (I asked:) > >Does anyone know who his ISP is? Is it netcom? > > NS.BEST.COM 204.156.128.1 > [snip] > I imagine it's best.com. :-) Thanks! I sent a note to postmaster@best.com but haven't heard anything back yet. I thought best.com was the ISP from doing nslookup, but Kyle-the-victim :-) wrote to me thanking me for removing him from my lists asap and he cc'd support@netcom and postmaster@netcom. Since Kyle-the-victim is from a .edu site, that threw me off track, wondering if he knew something I didn't. :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 18:04:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA01557 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA01550 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04504; Tue, 7 Nov 95 17:11:42 PST Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 7 Nov 95 17:11:42 PST Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11377; Tue, 7 Nov 95 17:11:39 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9511080111.AA11377@tardis.tymnet.com> Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 17:11:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199511071813.KAA19604@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Nov 7, 95 10:13:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close > > Henry W. Miller wrote: > > > I got six of these. It appears that Kyle Hsieh-Chen > > > is getting mass-subscribed to a LOT of mailing > > > lists without his knowledge by Roger Carasso or > > > > Thanks for the heads-up. Since it appears that Carasso "owns" > > carasso.com, have you notified his ISP? > > I did an nslookup, but couldn't figure out what his ISP was. Use 'whois' to determine the ISP: whois carasso.com Carasso Design (CARASSO-DOM) 101 Rowland Way Suite 310 Novato, CA 94945 Domain Name: CARASSO.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Carasso, Roger (RC237) info@CARASSO.COM +1 415 388 7333 Domain servers in listed order: NS.BEST.COM 204.156.128.1 I recognize that name server. Its the same one I use for inwap.com. finger carasso@shellx.best.com [shellx.best.com] Login name: rdc In real life: Roger David Carasso Office: NET.GOD, 213.931.3363 Home phone: 213.931.3363 No Plan. That explains the mail to lists@shellx.best.com that was reported. I had two idiots try to subscribe to all four of my lists via majordomo@lists.best.com before I made them all be private lists. -- Joe Smith MCI Data Services Div, Systems Tech Support (TYMNET Code Gen) 2560 N 1st St, MS-5046/746, San Jose, CA 95131 (408)922-6220 From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 7 23:52:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA12077 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 23:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.211]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA12060 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 1995 23:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id BAA11586; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 01:28:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199511080728.BAA11586@schoneal.com> Subject: Carasso.com's ISP (was Subscription Forgery Alert) To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 01:28:50 -0600 (CST) Cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Diane Barlow Close said... | |I did an nslookup, but couldn't figure out what his ISP was. I figured he |"owns" carasso.com, but I sent a postmaster complaint there anyway as it |might just give him the idea that he's not making any friends this way. |:-) Does anyone know who his ISP is? Is it netcom? Good heavens, no! Roger and netcom - they are not best buddies! Two things to try: whois, and traceroute. So I try both, and they both indicate best.com as carasso.com's ISP. But again, I'd try carasso.com first, in case it's a spoof, and wasn't him (though nothing Roger does would surprise me). wildride:meo[114]>whois carasso.com [rs.internic.net] Carasso Design (CARASSO-DOM) 101 Rowland Way Suite 310 Novato, CA 94945 Domain Name: CARASSO.COM Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Carasso, Roger (RC237) info@CARASSO.COM +1 415 388 7333 Record last updated on 27-Jun-95. Record created on 13-Jan-95. Domain servers in listed order: NS.BEST.COM 204.156.128.1 NS2.BEST.COM 204.156.128.10 NS3.BEST.COM 204.156.128.20 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ------------------------------------ wildride:meo[115]>traceroute carasso.com traceroute carasso.com traceroute: unknown host carasso.com wildride:meo[116]>traceroute www.carasso.com traceroute to www.carasso.com (204.156.144.6), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets 1 fnord.schoneal.com (198.252.182.212) 2.844 ms 1.796 ms 1.704 ms 2 buffalo.zilker.net (198.252.182.138) 29.246 ms 26.863 ms 26.213 ms 3 gw.zilker.net (198.252.182.130) 51.837 ms 31.781 ms 29.301 ms 4 fr.austin.tx.psi.net (38.2.245.1) 40.027 ms 40.459 ms 40.659 ms 5 leaf.net121.psi.net (38.1.10.15) 74.222 ms 93.791 ms 97.646 ms 6 38.1.2.19 (38.1.2.19) 96.443 ms 135.496 ms 104.408 ms 7 Net99-Mae-East01.net99.net (192.41.177.170) 118.407 ms 116.378 ms 98.169 ms 8 mae-w-pb-E0-0.SanJose.net99.net (204.157.38.2) 184.635 ms 180.097 ms 168.994 ms 9 mae-west.best.net (198.32.136.36) 177.955 ms 270.426 ms 218.969 ms 10 204.156.144.1 (204.156.144.1) 205.784 ms 218.392 ms 174.424 ms ^^^^^^^^^^^ ... wildride:meo[116]>whois 204.156.144 [rs.internic.net] Best Internet Communications, Inc. (NET-BEST2-156-144) 421 Castro Street Mountain View, CA 94040 US Netname: BEST2-156-144 Netnumber: 204.156.144.0 Coordinator: White, Richard P. (RPW) rpwhite@BEST.COM +1 415 964 2378 Record last updated on 03-Apr-95. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ------------------------------------------------ -Miles meo@schoneal.com From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 8 08:12:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA25525 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA25520 for ; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA29480 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:36 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA25584 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:35 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA29871; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199511081550.AA29871@jive.rahul.net> Subject: thought this was fairly ironic. Small net, huh? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:50:32 -0800 (PST) Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Steve Portigal spake: From stevep Wed Nov 8 06:45:29 1995 From: Steve Portigal Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 22:45:29 -0800 Message-Id: <199511080645.AA25954@jive.rahul.net> To: stevep@rahul.net Subject: (fwd) WEB DESIGNERS Newsgroups: alt.design.graphics Organization: GVO INC. Path: rahul.net!a2i!bug.rahul.net!a2i!infoseek.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!svc.portal.com!news1.best.com!shellx.best.com!shellx.best.com!not-for-mail From: rdc@shellx.best.com (Roger David Carasso) Newsgroups: alt.design.graphics Subject: WEB DESIGNERS Date: 7 Nov 1995 17:49:32 -0800 Organization: Carasso Design -- (415) 388-7333 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <47p2bc$p8p@shellx.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: shellx.best.com Already have a company web page? Or do you have one and it's boring? We can help. http://www.carasso.com CARASSO DESIGN The Artistic Professionals. "We've quickly and quietly produced some of the best sites -- clean, artistic, and professional -- on the entire internet for a reasonable price." -- -- CARASSO DESIGN Web Graphic Design / Builders info@carasso.com http://www.carasso.com -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 8 10:28:38 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA28528 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA28523 for ; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id NAA23212; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:00:52 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Subscription Forgery Alert Date: 8 Nov 1995 13:00:52 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 9 Distribution: local Message-ID: <47qr8k$ml9@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <00999026.6C673F56.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Before everyone decides Roger Carasso is the guilty party, allow me to point out that he is less than popular in a number of circles. It is well within the realm of possibility that some enterprising soul has decided to hit both him and Kyle Hsieh-Chen by forging the Hsieh-Chen giving the appearance of Carasso. -- ` . . . I'm a sysadmin, with an admitted preference for things I can reboot over things I have to negotiate with . . . ' Mike Shaver (shaver@neon.ingenia.com) From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 8 21:52:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA15577 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA15547 for ; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:18:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) for <@sgi.engr.sgi.com:list-managers@GreatCircle.COM> id VAA25386; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:18:22 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI.AUTO) for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM id VAA13246; Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:18:20 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199511090518.VAA13246@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: Where to complain (was Carasso.com's ISP) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:18:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199511080728.BAA11586@schoneal.com> from "Miles O'Neal" at Nov 08, 1995 01:28:50 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Miles wrote: > wildride:meo[116]>whois 204.156.144 > [rs.internic.net] > Best Internet Communications, Inc. (NET-BEST2-156-144) > 421 Castro Street > Mountain View, CA 94040 Wow, that's local to me! Thanks for the info. I figured since I'm local I'd phone them directly about this. I talked to their head guru, who wasn't aware of the situation as they ignore postmaster e-mail ("cause it fills up with bounces"). He said if anyone wants to complain, send it to: abuse@best.com They've set up that address to deal with abuse complaints. He wasn't very competent at tracing down carasso.com (he claimed he kept getting "no such address"), but I pressed him on it and gave him a bunch of info and he said he'd look into it and get back to me. We'll see... Perhaps that's just what he's like without coffee! :-) -- Diane Close close@lunch.engr.sgi.com I'm at lunch all day. :-) From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 02:53:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id CAA28358 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 02:33:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id CAA28298 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 02:33:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA29767 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Thu, 9 Nov 1995 03:35:59 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id DAA29375 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 03:21:11 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511090921.DAA29375@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Mailing list spam early warning To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 03:21:10 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This warning may not be an early one given the length of the To: list. I received 4 copies of it, so I don't know what he's doing. Since he's mailing actual the listservers he's going to be getting a slew of error messages back. :-) Forwarded message: > From romed@regensburger.co.at Wed Nov 8 22:32:21 1995 > Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 23:21:55 PST > From: Romed Regensburger > To: .bitlistserv%jhuvmnet@s14.ibk1.Austria.EU.net, > act-up-request@world.std.com, JHBercovitz@lbl.gov, majordomo@ainet.com, > Majordomo@seatimes.com, 90210-request@ferkel.ucsb.edu, > adoption-request@listserv.law.cornell.edu, AEthics-L-owner@scu.edu.au, > AFinAcc-L-owner@scu.edu.au, af-request@crl.dec.com, james@wsyd.com, > listserv@mizzou1.missouri.edu, majordomo@io.com, mlacabe@best.com, > wtm@bunker.shel.isc-br.com, > 30something-request@fuggles.acc.virginia.edu, > AAccSys-L-owner@scu.edu.au, AAudit-L-owner@Relay1.Austria.EU.net, > abc-list-request@cwi.nl, ABooks-L-owner@scu.edu.au, > accordion-request@cs.cmu.edu, action@ACTIONPROPERTIES.COM, > ada-belgium-info-request@cs.kuleuven.ac.be, > ada-belgium-request@cs.kuleuven.ac.be, add-parents-request@mv.mv.com, > adlaw-request@webcom.com, adoptees-request@ucsd.edu, > AEthnog-L-owner@scu.edu.au, agarg@ces.cwru.edu, > agenda-users-request@newcastle.ac.uk, AGvNFP-L-owner@scu.edu.au, > aids-request@cs.ucla.edu, AIntAcc-L-owner@scu.edu.au, > albany-democrats-request@webcom.com, alife-request@cognet.ucla.edu, > Allergy-request@tamvm1.tamu.edu, allman-request@world.std.com, > alpha-osf-managers-request@ornl.gov, Altinst-request@cco.caltech.edu, > alwatson@sedona.net, amazons-request@math.uio.no, > amos-request@access.digex.net, awlist@primenet.com, > bgordon@pcsmtp.lcec.lockheed.com, cdrom-list-request@ben.com, > cvisser@math.UCR.EDU, dirk@offis.be, frabbani@epas.utoronto.ca, > J.Hale@latrobe.edu.au, jp@unl.edu, kinnaman@eden.com, > listproc@eartha.mills.edu, listproc@solar.rtd.utk.edu, > listproc@vast.unsw.edu.au, listproc2@bgu.edu, listserv@amsat.org, > listserv@eff.org, listserv@gu.uwa.edu.au, listserv@latrobe.edu.au, > listserv@listserv.law.cornell.edu, listserv@mizzou1.missouri.edu, > LISTSERV@PSUVM.PSU.EDU, listserv@rutvm1.rutgers.edu, > listserv@scan.si.edu, LISTSERV@scan.si.edu, LISTSERV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU, > LISTSERV@tamvm1.tamu.edu, listserv@ucsd.edu, listserv@unl.edu, > LISTSERV@utoronto.bitnet, listserv@wsyd.com, listserv@wunet.wustl.edu, > madole@mills.edu, Majordomo@adfa.oz.au, majordomo@io.com, > majordomo@blob.best.net, majordomo@ornl.gov, majordomo@seatimes.com, > majordomo@virginia.edu, majordomo@webcom.com, mbm2y@virginia.edu, > odat@ccnet.com, otto@jyu.fi, postmaster@atheist.org, > rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au, stevea@vast.unsw.edu.au, vdpoll@fwi.uva.nl, > wsmith@wordsmith.org, year2020@seatimes.com, ZER0-request@neosoft.com > X-Mailer: Chameleon ENGP1, TCP/IP f|r Windows, NetManage Inc. > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > ------------------------------------- > Name: Romed Regensburger > E-mail: Romed Regensburger > Date: 11/08/95 > Time: 23:21:55 [ad for hair products deleted] > WDM > z.H. Romed Regensburger > Gstirnerweg 19 > 6424 Silz / Tirol > Fax: +43(0)5263 / 5477 - 4 > E-mail: regens@regensburger.co.at From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 11:48:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA19319 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA19314 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id OAA24484; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:18:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199511091918.OAA24484@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: bulk_mailer 1.3 release cc: moore@cs.utk.edu From: Keith Moore Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 14:18:36 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've just put the latest version of bulk_mailer out for anonymous ftp to ftp://cs.utk.edu/pub/moore/bulk_mailer/bulk_mailer-1.3.tar This release contains several bug fixes, plus the ability to do some on-the-fly header munging. It can be used as a more efficient alternative to majordomo's resend, though it has different command-line arguments and doesn't have all of the functionality of the majordomo tool. The readme file follows. Keith --------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a C program to do "bulk" mailing. For input, it takes a file of recipient addresses (one address per line) and a message (with headers already attached) to be sent to the recipients. It sorts the recipient list by reversed domain (so similar ones sort together), splits up the recipients into several groups containing no more than N domains each, creates an SMTP envelope for each group of recipients, and feeds that envelope to "/usr/lib/sendmail -bs". Splitting the envelopes up allows sendmail to perform delivery in parallel, so instead of having one large queue entry (for which sendmail might take awhile to get around to attempting delivery for some recipients), it has several smaller queue entries. Depending on your point-of-view, this can still be considered "cluttering up your mail queue", but it does seem to deliver messages more quickly to most recipients. The core of this program was extracted from a somewhat strange mailing list manager called na-net; it was designed to efficiently send out mail to 5000 people at a time. I have used this program to attempt delivery of a message to over 12000 recipients around the world, within a few hours. I'm currently using bulk_mailer as a back-end for several mailing lists of modest size. However, the program is not extensively tested, and may not work well in all environments. (In particular, if your system has per-user process quotas, or a small number of process table entries, you will want to modify this program to recover gracefully.) There's no warranty on this, but you're welcome to use it if you want. Installation: a) edit the Makefile as necessary b) type "make" c) copy bulk_mailer to whereever you want it to live. Usage: bulk_mailer [options] envelope_from recipient_list_file The message is then fed to standard input. 'envelope_from' is the envelope return address for the mailing list. This should either be the address of a human list maintainer, or the address of a robot that tries to recognize bounced mail messages and grok it, forwarding anything it doesn't understand to a human. 'recipient_list_file' is a filename of a list of recipients, one recipient per line. bulk_mailer's address prefrobnicator tries to understand several forms of address, e.g.: Keith Moore moore@cs.utk.edu (Keith Moore) "Keith Moore" <"keith.moore"@cs.utk.edu> (Moore, Keith) should all do the right thing. Options: -debug don't actually mail the stuff. instead, spit SMTP to stdout -domain dom.ain Set the local domain name. if not set, bulk_mailer will try to figure out the name on its own. Note: This should be a fully-qualified domain name -- not just the first component (aka the "hostname"). If the domain name doesn't have a '.' it's rejected. -maxdomains ### set the maximum number of domains per envelope to ###. if not explicitly set, 20 is the default. -maxsize ##### reject any message larger than ##### bytes. -precedence xxx add a 'Precedence: xxx' header. 'xxx' should be a keyword recognized by sendmail. NOT RECOMMENDED. WARNING: some mailers will bounce the mail if they see a Precedence header with a keyword they don't understand; some list managers will silently drop the mail if they see a Precedence header with a keyword they do understand. There is NO safe value for the Precedence header that won't cause some mailer to mishandle the message. This option is therefore not recommended. -reply-to xxx add a 'Reply-to: xxx' header to the resent message if there wasn't one in the input. Use of the reply-to header by lists is questionable; see http://www.unicom.com/FAQ/reply-to-evil.html for some of the reasons why. +reply-to yyy add a 'Reply-to: xxx' header to the resent message, overriding any reply-to header in the input. THIS OPTION IS NOT RECOMMENDED. If having a list use reply-to is questionable, overriding the sender's reply-to header is even worse. This option should be used only in very unusual cases. -sendmail zzz Add the following flags to the sendmail command-line. For instance, "-sendmail -Odq" would have bulk_mailer pass the "-Odq" flag to sendmail, which tells it: "just queue the message, don't attempt to deliver it immediately". -v Be verbose. Use with sendmail: To have bulk_mailer distributed mail to a list, add the following lines to /etc/aliases: {FOO}-request: whoever-maintains-foo owner-{FOO}: whoever-maintains-foo {FOO}: "|{BULK_MAILER} owner-{FOO}@{YOUR.DOMAIN} {ADDRESS_LIST}" where {FOO} is the name of the list, {YOUR.DOMAIN} is your fully-qualified domain, {BULK_MAILER} is a full path name of the bulk_mailer program, and {ADDRESS_LIST} is a full path name of the file containing the list of addresses. From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 15:23:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA26436 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:15:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mv.mv.com (mv.MV.COM [192.80.84.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA26425 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:15:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (mem@localhost) by mv.mv.com (8.6.10/mv(b)/mem-940616) id SAA17146; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 18:15:18 -0500 From: "Mark E. Mallett" Message-Id: <199511092315.SAA17146@mv.mv.com> Subject: Re: Where to complain (was Carasso.com's ISP) To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 18:15:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199511090518.VAA13246@lunch.engr.sgi.com> from "Diane Barlow Close" at Nov 8, 95 09:18:19 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Wow, that's local to me! Thanks for the info. I figured since I'm local > I'd phone them directly about this. I talked to their head guru, who > wasn't aware of the situation as they ignore postmaster e-mail ("cause it > fills up with bounces"). Oh my. The only times I've ever heard anyone say this is when they had some reason to avoid postmaster mail. Not that this person does; just that ignoring postmaster mail isn't cool. -mm- From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 16:09:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA27823 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA27818 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:42:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA01630 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:42:22 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07985; Thu, 9 Nov 95 15:42:21 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9511092342.AA07985@siesta> Subject: regensb@regensburger.co.at attempted spam To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:42:20 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just got a major attempted spam from regensb@regensburger.co.at. He's using majordomo and listname-owner address, so it shouldn't affect subscribers much. I sent mail to postmaster, but given that it looks like he's posting from his own domain I don't think we'll hear much in return. Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Rep., Information International Inc. +1 617 937 9400 (jeffw@triple-i.com, jeffw@jane.camex.com) "I'll be youah race-cah drivah..." -- Jewel "Pahrk youah race-cah in Havahad Yahd?" -- Anja [smoe] From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 9 22:23:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA14730 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA14725 for ; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:03:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA11818 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Thu, 9 Nov 1995 23:34:21 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA20485 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 9 Nov 1995 19:02:21 -0600 From: ranger@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511100102.TAA20485@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: The ML Spam Continues To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 19:02:20 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mr. Regensburger is still at it, and up to the E's. Only got two copies of this one. He's still mailing all the contact addresses, including listservers. Guess he's not savvy enough to figure out he's really not reaching very many people. I got hit twice with this latest bunch, making 6 copies total. If he's using the most recent version of the PAML, I'll get hit again when he gets up to the S's (if someone hasn't stopped him by then). Send me email if you want to see the latest copies - I won't burden list-managers further with this unless something new develops. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 22:19:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA03401 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:25:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [198.68.32.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA03387; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from usr5.primenet.com (root@usr5.primenet.com [198.68.32.15]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA27455; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:26:30 GMT Received: (from peterqz@localhost) by usr5.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id WAA18716; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:25:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:25:31 -0700 (MST) From: Peter Quizert Message-Id: <199511110525.WAA18716@usr5.primenet.com> To: firewalls-digest@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, phonestation-digest@GreatCircle.COM, sunflash-f-usa@FlashBack.COM, sunworld@FlashBack.COM, usa@FlashBack.COM Subject: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The Problem: Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in the military, you will have to take a drug test. Another Problem: Eating the wrong breakfast, or using certain over-the- counter pain relievers will falsely identify you as a drug user. The Real Problem: Public and private employers spend 1.2 billion dollars each year (1992 figures) on drug tests that are unreliable and inaccurate. Even hard working employees that do not use drugs are at risk. The Solution: ================================ Know the Facts. Know what foods and over the counter medicines are routinely mistaken for common illegal drugs. Simply eating a poppy seed bagel before a drug test can identify you as an opiate user. Know how long different illicit drugs can be detected in your system. Marijuana can be detected for more than a month if nothing is done to conceal its use. Know the different types of drug tests, especially the ones you are likely to face. GC/MS tests are almost impossible to beat, but are seldom used. The more common EMIT test is much easier to fool -- if you know how. Be Prepared! Know when the test is coming. Do not use illicit drugs, or ingest cross-reactive substances before the test. Clean your system of drug metabolites and cross-reactive substances. Drink plenty of water and urinate as often as possible before the test. Do NOT give them your first urine of the day! Use Clean 'n Clear. Clean 'n Clear is a three phase system designed to Clean out your body, so you will give Clear urine and Clear the test. The unique Clean 'n Clear Package includes: 1. Simple step-by-step instructions 2. All natural blood purifiers 3. All natural urine flow stimulators 4. Coloring vitamins to put 'yellow' back in your clear urine 5. Information you need about drug testing 6. A guarantee! This is not a simplistic "tea" or golden seal approach to the problem! This amazing three phase system is guaranteed! And not just guaranteed ... We are so sure our unique three phase system will work for you that we are including a DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!! Everyone has a friend who needs this information! =================================================================== -------------------------------- P R I N T and S A V E ! ! -------------------------------- Be prepared. Stop worrying now! You will pass. We guarantee it!! Order your guaranteed Clean 'n Clear package now by sending $19.95 along with your name and address to: Clean 'n Clear 2809 East Hamilton Av #121B Eau Claire, WI 54701 Most companies require pre-employment drug screens. You may only have a few days notice of a drug test. Be Prepared. Order Now! =================================================================== Sorry, Clean 'n Clear is not legal in Texas, and will NOT be mailed to Texas addresses. Distributor inquires welcome. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 22:31:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA03534 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [198.68.32.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA03362; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 21:25:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from usr5.primenet.com (root@usr5.primenet.com [198.68.32.15]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA27447; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:26:27 GMT Received: (from peterqz@localhost) by usr5.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id WAA18702; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:25:29 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:25:29 -0700 (MST) From: Peter Quizert Message-Id: <199511110525.WAA18702@usr5.primenet.com> To: bounces@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls-standards@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-docs@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, wvfc-members@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The Problem: Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in the military, you will have to take a drug test. Another Problem: Eating the wrong breakfast, or using certain over-the- counter pain relievers will falsely identify you as a drug user. The Real Problem: Public and private employers spend 1.2 billion dollars each year (1992 figures) on drug tests that are unreliable and inaccurate. Even hard working employees that do not use drugs are at risk. The Solution: ================================ Know the Facts. Know what foods and over the counter medicines are routinely mistaken for common illegal drugs. Simply eating a poppy seed bagel before a drug test can identify you as an opiate user. Know how long different illicit drugs can be detected in your system. Marijuana can be detected for more than a month if nothing is done to conceal its use. Know the different types of drug tests, especially the ones you are likely to face. GC/MS tests are almost impossible to beat, but are seldom used. The more common EMIT test is much easier to fool -- if you know how. Be Prepared! Know when the test is coming. Do not use illicit drugs, or ingest cross-reactive substances before the test. Clean your system of drug metabolites and cross-reactive substances. Drink plenty of water and urinate as often as possible before the test. Do NOT give them your first urine of the day! Use Clean 'n Clear. Clean 'n Clear is a three phase system designed to Clean out your body, so you will give Clear urine and Clear the test. The unique Clean 'n Clear Package includes: 1. Simple step-by-step instructions 2. All natural blood purifiers 3. All natural urine flow stimulators 4. Coloring vitamins to put 'yellow' back in your clear urine 5. Information you need about drug testing 6. A guarantee! This is not a simplistic "tea" or golden seal approach to the problem! This amazing three phase system is guaranteed! And not just guaranteed ... We are so sure our unique three phase system will work for you that we are including a DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!! Everyone has a friend who needs this information! =================================================================== -------------------------------- P R I N T and S A V E ! ! -------------------------------- Be prepared. Stop worrying now! You will pass. We guarantee it!! Order your guaranteed Clean 'n Clear package now by sending $19.95 along with your name and address to: Clean 'n Clear 2809 East Hamilton Av #121B Eau Claire, WI 54701 Most companies require pre-employment drug screens. You may only have a few days notice of a drug test. Be Prepared. Order Now! =================================================================== Sorry, Clean 'n Clear is not legal in Texas, and will NOT be mailed to Texas addresses. Distributor inquires welcome. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 22:53:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04879 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [198.68.32.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA04772; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from usr5.primenet.com (root@usr5.primenet.com [198.68.32.15]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA01866; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:03:15 GMT Received: (from peterqz@localhost) by usr5.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA27947; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:17 -0700 (MST) From: Peter Quizert Message-Id: <199511110602.XAA27947@usr5.primenet.com> To: firewalls-digest@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, phonestation-digest@GreatCircle.COM, sunflash-f-usa@FlashBack.COM, sunworld@FlashBack.COM, usa@FlashBack.COM Subject: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The Problem: Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in the military, you will have to take a drug test. Another Problem: Eating the wrong breakfast, or using certain over-the- counter pain relievers will falsely identify you as a drug user. The Real Problem: Public and private employers spend 1.2 billion dollars each year (1992 figures) on drug tests that are unreliable and inaccurate. Even hard working employees that do not use drugs are at risk. The Solution: ================================ Know the Facts. Know what foods and over the counter medicines are routinely mistaken for common illegal drugs. Simply eating a poppy seed bagel before a drug test can identify you as an opiate user. Know how long different illicit drugs can be detected in your system. Marijuana can be detected for more than a month if nothing is done to conceal its use. Know the different types of drug tests, especially the ones you are likely to face. GC/MS tests are almost impossible to beat, but are seldom used. The more common EMIT test is much easier to fool -- if you know how. Be Prepared! Know when the test is coming. Do not use illicit drugs, or ingest cross-reactive substances before the test. Clean your system of drug metabolites and cross-reactive substances. Drink plenty of water and urinate as often as possible before the test. Do NOT give them your first urine of the day! Use Clean 'n Clear. Clean 'n Clear is a three phase system designed to Clean out your body, so you will give Clear urine and Clear the test. The unique Clean 'n Clear Package includes: 1. Simple step-by-step instructions 2. All natural blood purifiers 3. All natural urine flow stimulators 4. Coloring vitamins to put 'yellow' back in your clear urine 5. Information you need about drug testing 6. A guarantee! This is not a simplistic "tea" or golden seal approach to the problem! This amazing three phase system is guaranteed! And not just guaranteed ... We are so sure our unique three phase system will work for you that we are including a DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!! Everyone has a friend who needs this information! =================================================================== -------------------------------- P R I N T and S A V E ! ! -------------------------------- Be prepared. Stop worrying now! You will pass. We guarantee it!! Order your guaranteed Clean 'n Clear package now by sending $19.95 along with your name and address to: Clean 'n Clear 2809 East Hamilton Av #121D Eau Claire, WI 54701 Most companies require pre-employment drug screens. You may only have a few days notice of a drug test. Be Prepared. Order Now! =================================================================== Sorry, Clean 'n Clear is not legal in Texas, and will NOT be mailed to Texas addresses. Distributor inquires welcome. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 22:59:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id WAA04973 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost1.primenet.com (mailhost1.primenet.com [198.68.32.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id WAA04758; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from usr5.primenet.com (root@usr5.primenet.com [198.68.32.15]) by mailhost1.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA01862; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:03:14 GMT Received: (from peterqz@localhost) by usr5.primenet.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) id XAA27939; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:15 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:15 -0700 (MST) From: Peter Quizert Message-Id: <199511110602.XAA27939@usr5.primenet.com> To: bounces@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls-standards@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-docs@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, wvfc-members@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The Problem: Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in the military, you will have to take a drug test. Another Problem: Eating the wrong breakfast, or using certain over-the- counter pain relievers will falsely identify you as a drug user. The Real Problem: Public and private employers spend 1.2 billion dollars each year (1992 figures) on drug tests that are unreliable and inaccurate. Even hard working employees that do not use drugs are at risk. The Solution: ================================ Know the Facts. Know what foods and over the counter medicines are routinely mistaken for common illegal drugs. Simply eating a poppy seed bagel before a drug test can identify you as an opiate user. Know how long different illicit drugs can be detected in your system. Marijuana can be detected for more than a month if nothing is done to conceal its use. Know the different types of drug tests, especially the ones you are likely to face. GC/MS tests are almost impossible to beat, but are seldom used. The more common EMIT test is much easier to fool -- if you know how. Be Prepared! Know when the test is coming. Do not use illicit drugs, or ingest cross-reactive substances before the test. Clean your system of drug metabolites and cross-reactive substances. Drink plenty of water and urinate as often as possible before the test. Do NOT give them your first urine of the day! Use Clean 'n Clear. Clean 'n Clear is a three phase system designed to Clean out your body, so you will give Clear urine and Clear the test. The unique Clean 'n Clear Package includes: 1. Simple step-by-step instructions 2. All natural blood purifiers 3. All natural urine flow stimulators 4. Coloring vitamins to put 'yellow' back in your clear urine 5. Information you need about drug testing 6. A guarantee! This is not a simplistic "tea" or golden seal approach to the problem! This amazing three phase system is guaranteed! And not just guaranteed ... We are so sure our unique three phase system will work for you that we are including a DOUBLE YOUR MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!!! Everyone has a friend who needs this information! =================================================================== -------------------------------- P R I N T and S A V E ! ! -------------------------------- Be prepared. Stop worrying now! You will pass. We guarantee it!! Order your guaranteed Clean 'n Clear package now by sending $19.95 along with your name and address to: Clean 'n Clear 2809 East Hamilton Av #121D Eau Claire, WI 54701 Most companies require pre-employment drug screens. You may only have a few days notice of a drug test. Be Prepared. Order Now! =================================================================== Sorry, Clean 'n Clear is not legal in Texas, and will NOT be mailed to Texas addresses. Distributor inquires welcome. From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 10 23:40:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA08521 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom18.netcom.com (netcom18.netcom.com [192.100.81.131]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA08511; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom18.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id XAA25789; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:53 -0800 From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) Message-Id: <199511110702.XAA25789@netcom18.netcom.com> Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? To: peterqz@primenet.com (Peter Quizert) Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: firewalls-digest@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, phonestation-digest@GreatCircle.COM, sunflash-f-usa@FlashBack.COM, sunworld@FlashBack.COM, usa@FlashBack.COM In-Reply-To: <199511110525.WAA18716@usr5.primenet.com> from "Peter Quizert" at Nov 10, 95 10:25:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > > > The Problem: > > Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. > If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in > the military, you will have to take a drug test. I've already bounced copies two of these to my postmaster, and the postmaster at Primenet. I've also called the InterNIC administrative contact at Primenet (which is where this appears to be coming from). So, just this once, could we skip the secondary and tertiary waves of "I hate spammers" posts? (I realize that this won't be the last we hear about this -- but let's please keep the rest off the mailing lists themselves). From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 06:53:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA20285 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 06:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA20279 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 06:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiralnet.phoenix.net ([199.3.234.29]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA26768 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:34:00 -0600 Message-Id: <199511111434.IAA26768@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:34:27 -0600 Subject: That annoying magazine spam Reply-to: klong@phoenix.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.20) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I know everyone on this list is sick of spam related email but I am wondering...are my lists the only ones that continue to be hit by the magazine subscription spam? I am still getting them sent to my lists atleast every 3-5 days. Fortunatly the sender is inserting an invalid approve header which keeps it from hitting the general list population but it is still annoying. BTW, could someone send me the subscription information for the SPAM list? Thanks in advance. Namaste' Kimberly Long klong@phoenix.net Nothing is more dangerous than an idea, when it's the only one we have. Emile Auguste Chartier ) O ( From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 08:53:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22053 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:27:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA22048; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.1/BuGless_1.02) id RAA22009; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:27:46 +0100 Message-Id: <199511111627.RAA22009@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:27:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: Peter Quizert's message as of 1995 Nov 10 Fri 23:02. <199511110602.XAA27947@usr5.primenet.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anybody happen to know if it is possible to extract the original version of this spam from a majordomo archive? I.e. in the state it was (including exact headers) before it went through the mailinglist? -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Auto repair rates: basic labor $40/hour; if you wait, $60; if you watch, $80; if you ask questions, $100; if you help, $120; if you laugh, $140. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 09:10:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22092 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:34:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA22087 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:33:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.1/BuGless_1.02) id RAA22271; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:33:34 +0100 Message-Id: <199511111633.RAA22271@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:33:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: klong@phoenix.net's message as of 1995 Nov 11 Sat 8:34. <199511111434.IAA26768@phoenix.net> To: klong@phoenix.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: That annoying magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk klong@phoenix.net wrote: >wondering...are my lists the only ones that continue to be hit by the >magazine subscription spam? I am still getting them sent to my lists >atleast every 3-5 days. Fortunatly the sender is inserting an No, two of my lists have it as a regularly scheduled broadcast. Although last time (today) it was filtered out. Also, the frequency isn't that high. More like every 2 weeks. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). Auto repair rates: basic labor $40/hour; if you wait, $60; if you watch, $80; if you ask questions, $100; if you help, $120; if you laugh, $140. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 09:23:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA22256 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA22249; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 08:55:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [198.69.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA05014; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:55:55 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA18222; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:55:53 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:55:52 -0500 (EST) From: Jason and Jill To: JaDe cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? In-Reply-To: <199511110702.XAA25789@netcom18.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I've already bounced copies two of these to my postmaster, > and the postmaster at Primenet. I've also called the > InterNIC administrative contact at Primenet (which is where > this appears to be coming from). > > So, just this once, could we skip the secondary and tertiary > waves of "I hate spammers" posts? (I realize that this won't > be the last we hear about this -- but let's please keep the > rest off the mailing lists themselves). > Sorry, one thing to add: Anyone else think its about time the lists command was chucked altogether? It doesn't serve much of a purpose--all you get is a list of the listnames at a certain host, few listowners put in the one-line info about the purpose of the list, so what good is the command to anyone besides spammers putting together their distribution list. All of my lists at eskimo.com were spammed tonight, and it was exceedingly obvious that it was done using the output of a lists command sent to the majordomo. In the six hours since the spam hit, I've seen discussion on everyone of the hit lists about restricting posting to list members. This is a solution without a solution--if every lists does it, spammers will simply send out a burst of sub messages before their spams, and they'll send out a ton of unsubs afterwards. I also don't see the use of sending back a ton of replies to a spammer. People almost never change the subject of their reply, and procmail can be sent to quietly dump any incomming mail with that subject to /dev/null. So a spammer can get in a gigabyte of hate mail, core files, uudecoded gifs of Orson Well's butt, etc., and with three simple lines in their .procmailrc set things so they never see a single reply. Without the lists commands, spammers will stuck trying to build distributions lists from meta-lists and the like, a much more daunting process than getting a nice, perfectly arranged, column of address to mail to. Jason From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 12:53:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA27060 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA27053 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:33:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511112033.MAA27053@miles.greatcircle.com> To: klong@phoenix.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:33:40 EST Subject: Re: That annoying magazine spam Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > BTW, could someone send me the > subscription information for the SPAM list? Thanks in advance. SPAM-L@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. Send "SIGNON SPAM-L your name" to LISTSERV@PEACH.EASE.LSOFT.COM. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 13:01:39 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA27408 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from turtle.mrj.com (turtle.mrj.com [205.160.13.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA27403; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from newt.mrj.com (newt.mrj.com [205.160.13.69]) by turtle.mrj.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id PAA27603; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:42:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:42:28 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Mayer To: Jason and Jill cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Jason and Jill wrote: > Anyone else think its about time the lists command was chucked > altogether? It doesn't serve much of a purpose--all you get is a list of > the listnames at a certain host, few listowners put in the one-line info > about the purpose of the list, so what good is the command to anyone > besides spammers putting together their distribution list. I use lists. I find it useful for my "customers." I'm also pretty diligent about tweaking the advertise regexps so company lists aren't published to the outside world. I do make who's private by default on my system too. It should be fairly easy to add a "shunning" feature to resend, it's pretty close to the $opt_I code. Addresses that match regular expressions in a config file get dropped, or the sender gets a bounce message "Your address has been used for spamming, we will no longer distribute mail from this address. If you feel that there has been an error, contact majordomo-owner@site.org.dom." Ken Mayer In dwelling, live close to the ground. MRJ, Inc. In thinking, keep to the simple. 10560 Arrowhead Drive In conflict, be fair and generous. Fairfax, Virginia 22030-7305 In governing, don't try to control. kmayer@mrj.com In work, do what you enjoy. (703) 277-1722 / 385-4637 fax In family life, be completely present. finger kmayer@mrj.com for PGP public key -- Tao Te Ching From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 13:53:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA28101 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 13:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA28094 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 13:44:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.92] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA13693; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 13:42:55 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 13:44:35 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Are You Pissed? Cc: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe), peterqz@primenet.com (Peter Quizert) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:02 pm 11/10/95, JaDe wrote: >From: jadestar@netcom.com (JaDe) >Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? >To: peterqz@primenet.com (Peter Quizert) >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:02:51 -0800 (PST) >Cc: firewalls-digest@GreatCircle.COM, >list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM, >phonestation-digest@GreatCircle.COM, sunflash-f-usa@FlashBack.COM, >sunworld@FlashBack.COM, usa@FlashBack.COM > >> The Problem: >> >> Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. >> If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in >> the military, you will have to take a drug test. Wait a minute... Peter Quizert from Eau Claire is selling piss kits?!? ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ Is this a _joke_? ;) If it is, it's a pretty bad one, but whether it's a 'namephreak' gag or not, it's becoming apparent to me that we have achieved a virtual state of war with the spammers. I'm pretty sick of Spam in my diet... it would be one thing if I was scooping it out of the can and heaping it on my _own_ plate, but I'm not: someone is leaning over my shoulder and spreading it nice and thick on my toast for me. >gag< I suggest that if it's not already being done, we begin to organize ourselves in various ways (eg. participating on this list) to meet the oncoming spam tidal wave. Whether or not list-managers care to admit it or not, this stuff we've been seeing recently is the just the tip of the spamberg. Look where this idiot _aimed_ his spam, folks: if that's not a metaphorical slap in the face with a glove...then is he really slueless about who he was spamming? And look at the growing number of miscreants who are using C&S' net.bomb-building instructions to form new commercial ventures that explicitly exist to spam the net for a $400+ fee! Imagine how many (more) unsuspecting businesspeople will discover to their chagin (like the poor chap who recently apologized to the whole world) that these charlatans are actually charging them money to embarrass them in front of millions of educated, organized netizens (and that it's going to earn them only emnity in the long run). Of course, no-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the [insert nationality here] people, did they... Imho, some pro-active measures need to be taken by net.admins to defend net.citizens. I hate to sound like I want a net "police force," since it goes against my cypherpunk side, but if we don't begin to deal with the spammers in better than the ad hoc methods currently being employed (excellent though they may be), there could be lots of other unpleasantries in store for us, not to mention some pretty unsavory reactionaries deciding that they need to regulate us out of existence. There are dangers in some of the ideas I propose to be sure, dangerous powers which could be abused by bad people, but if we focus on education and suggestion and peer pressure, we might preserve at least some of what makes the net great for a while longer. To begin with, responsible groups could collaborate to compile an ongoing registry of spammers which any sysadmin (or anyone) could surf to and pick up a pre-built killfile materials and Spam advisories. A set of guidelines could be drawn up by a group of non-fascist, responsible list managers that would qualify a spammer to be added to the registry. The members could rotate annually, and the rules should be clear. The registry could be used by any ISP that chose to participate to build killfiles or base a service denial on. Self-regulation should be the watch-phrase and no-one should force anyone else to participate: it should just be obvious, like reading Consumer Reports if you want to buy a stove. A set of basic netiquette suggestions to live by could be established (an interesting exercise in and of itself), sort of a Spama Carta or something, and should be propagated worldwide in many languages so that everyone on the net could enjoy mail sans spam, etc. Clear consequences could be established (in a short, easy-to-read document), made public and pointed to in every new "kit of parts" that any "responsible" ISP "subscriber to the commandments" includes in their startup ReadMe. I guess I'm talking about a legal microcosm for co-existence on the net. This will take a long time, but it'll have to be done someday, or the whole thing is going to go right down the tubes while we sit back and watch, and I don't think I'm just being an alarmist. These are just my ideas: I invite your feedback. dave _________________________________________________________________________ "Thou shalt not spam thy net." -- Seventh String, Church of the Machine _________________________________ "A furore Normannorum libera nos" From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 14:53:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA29286 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 14:35:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from en.com (en.com [204.89.181.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id OAA29281 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 14:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.89.181.196] (l2-6.en.net [204.89.181.196]) by en.com (8.7.1/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA28510 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:52:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:52:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: pmck@en.com (Monee C. Kidd) Subject: Re: Are You Pissed? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Wait a minute... Peter Quizert from Eau Claire is selling piss kits?!? > ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ >Is this a _joke_? ;) > >If it is, it's a pretty bad one, but whether it's a 'namephreak' gag or >not, it's becoming apparent to me that we have achieved a virtual state of >war with the spammers. I'm pretty sick of Spam in my diet... it would be >one thing if I was scooping it out of the can and heaping it on my _own_ >plate, but I'm not: someone is leaning over my shoulder and spreading it >nice and thick on my toast for me. >gag< [rest snipped] The postmaster on primenet.com is a pretty swift one. I got this in response to my note to him: >Status: >Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:19:13 -0700 (MST) >From: "James J. Lippard" >To: pmck@en.com >Subject: Recent Primenet spam > >Greetings! > >You are receiving this automatic response because you have sent email >to postmaster@primenet.com with a subject containing either the word >"spam" or the phrase "ARE YOU PREPARED," and are almost certainly >complaining about the massive email spam to mailing lists by Primenet user >peterqz@primenet.com, Peter Quizert. Excuse me, I mean ex-Primenet >user Peter Quizert. His account has been terminated and is being billed >for the time required to respond to complaints. A report has been >posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc. > We apologize for the net abuse, which is a violation of our user >agreement, the relevant section of which is appended below for your >information. > >If you would like to reply to this message for any reason, you do not >need to worry about getting an autoresponse so long as the subject of >your message contains "Recent Primenet spam." > >Jim Lippard >Web Administrator, Postmaster, and Spam Canceller >Primenet Services for the Internet > >21. The following violations of "netiquette" are grounds for immediate > suspension of service pending investigation by PRIMENET and will > result in termination of the account(s) the investigation determines > to have originated or transmitted these types of traffic. > (a) Posting a single article or substantially similar articles to an > excessive number of newsgroups (i.e., more than 20) or continued > posting of articles which are off-topic (e.g., off-topic according > to the newsgroup charter or the article provokes complaints from > the regular readers of the newsgroup for being off-topic). > (b) Sending unsolicited mass emailings (i.e., to more than 25 users) > which provoke complaints from the recipients. > (c) Engaging in either (a) or (b) from a provider other than PRIMENET and > using an account on PRIMENET as a mail drop for responses. > (d) Continued harrassment of other individuals on the Internet after > being asked to stop by those individuals and by PRIMENET. > (e) Impersonating another user or otherwise falsifying one's user name > in email, Usenet postings, on IRC, or with any other Internet > service. (This does not preclude the use of nicknames in IRC or > the use of anonymous remailer services.) > Users whose accounts are terminated for any of the above infractions > are also responsible for the cost of labor to cleanup and respond to > complaints incurred by PRIMENET. ---------------- Not this this will clear out all spam from the net, but we can rest easy, knowing that this particular spammer has been stopped. -- Generic .sig file. Use your imagination. Monee C. Kidd pmck@en.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 15:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA29877 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:06:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.zilker.net [198.252.182.211]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA29872 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id RAA06201 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:08:12 -0600 Message-Id: <199511112308.RAA06201@schoneal.com> Subject: Are You Pissed? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:08:11 -0600 (CST) From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto said... | |Look where this idiot _aimed_ his spam, folks Oh, he didn't aim. I'm on about a dozen lists, and it's hitting them all. He's more like a drunk with a machine gun, doing what's called "pray and spray". Stuff goes everywhere in the hopes that you hit something that matters. What? Collateral damage? Civilian casualties? Huh? |And look at the growing number of miscreants who |are using C&S' net.bomb-building instructions to form new commercial |ventures that explicitly exist to spam the net for a $400+ fee! I'm going to try to talk to a lawyer about this. Given the way the judicial system has been going, we should be able to hold Canker & Beagle responsible for all the wasted time, space, phone charges, wear & tear on the cables (electron flow, ya know), and a few billion in damages. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 15:34:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA29805 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:03:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from hq.stargame.org (bh.mindspring.com [168.121.33.204]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA29799 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:02:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (from bh@localhost) by hq.stargame.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) id SAA00303; Fri, 10 Nov 1995 18:09:10 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 18:09:09 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Hartsfield To: "Monee C. Kidd" cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Are You Pissed? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Monee C. Kidd wrote: > >Wait a minute... Peter Quizert from Eau Claire is selling piss kits?!? > > ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ > >Is this a _joke_? ;) > > > >If it is, it's a pretty bad one, but whether it's a 'namephreak' gag or > >not, it's becoming apparent to me that we have achieved a virtual state of > >war with the spammers. I'm pretty sick of Spam in my diet... it would be > >one thing if I was scooping it out of the can and heaping it on my _own_ > >plate, but I'm not: someone is leaning over my shoulder and spreading it > >nice and thick on my toast for me. >gag< > > [rest snipped] > > The postmaster on primenet.com is a pretty swift one. I got this in > response to my note to him: {responce from postmaster snipped} I got the same thing from them. I wish that all postmasters were this swift as far as taking care of spams. Things would be a lot better if they were. I like the part where they charge the ex-customer for the time required to "clean up" their mess. At least there are some sysadmins out there that are about stopping things like this. If only they all were. Brian From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 15:53:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA00692 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA00684 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:43:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sat, 11 Nov 95 15:44 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 15:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Are You Pissed? To: meo@schoneal.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199511112308.RAA06201@schoneal.com> Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.1-950814-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) on scroll <199511112308.RAA06201@schoneal.com> > I'm going to try to talk to a lawyer about this. Given the way > the judicial system has been going, we should be able to hold > Canker & Beagle responsible for all the wasted time, space, > phone charges, wear & tear on the cables (electron flow, ya know), > and a few billion in damages. Yeah this is what burns me the most. Our cables have gotten worn down three times with the spamming. The damn things just cannot take the stress. I was going to upgrade to fibre, but I'm afraid it'll just get all clouded up and the light waves will just get lost in the fog. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 17:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA01584 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:01:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA01579 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.92] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id QAA05377; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 16:59:25 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:01:38 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Terra Firma (was: Re: Are You Pissed?) Cc: pmck@en.com (Monee C. Kidd), "James J. Lippard" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:52 pm 11/11/95, Monee C. Kidd wrote: [elided] >The postmaster on primenet.com is a pretty swift one. I got this in >response to my note to him: [elided] >>From: "James J. Lippard" >>To: pmck@en.com >>Subject: Recent Primenet spam >> >>Greetings! >> >>You are receiving this automatic response because you have sent email >>to postmaster@primenet.com with a subject containing either the word >>"spam" or the phrase "ARE YOU PREPARED," and are almost certainly >>complaining about the massive email spam to mailing lists by Primenet >>user peterqz@primenet.com, Peter Quizert. Excuse me, I mean ex-Primenet >>user Peter Quizert. His account has been terminated and is being billed Swift he is, and he's taken a totally appropriate course of action. Three cheers for you, Lippy! :) >>for the time required to respond to complaints. A report has been >>posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc. >> We apologize for the net abuse, which is a violation of our user >>agreement, the relevant section of which is appended below for your >>information. [elided] >>21. The following violations of "netiquette" are grounds for immediate >> suspension of service pending investigation by PRIMENET and will >> result in termination of the account(s) the investigation determines >> to have originated or transmitted these types of traffic. >> (a) Posting a single article or substantially similar articles to an >> excessive number of newsgroups (i.e., more than 20) or continued >> posting of articles which are off-topic (e.g., off-topic according >> to the newsgroup charter or the article provokes complaints from >> the regular readers of the newsgroup for being off-topic). >> (b) Sending unsolicited mass emailings (i.e., to more than 25 users) >> which provoke complaints from the recipients. >> (c) Engaging in either (a) or (b) from a provider other than PRIMENET >> and using an account on PRIMENET as a mail drop for responses. >> (d) Continued harrassment of other individuals on the Internet after >> being asked to stop by those individuals and by PRIMENET. >> (e) Impersonating another user or otherwise falsifying one's user name >> in email, Usenet postings, on IRC, or with any other Internet >> service. (This does not preclude the use of nicknames in IRC or >> the use of anonymous remailer services.) >> Users whose accounts are terminated for any of the above infractions >> are also responsible for the cost of labor to cleanup and respond to >> complaints incurred by PRIMENET. > >---------------- > >Not this this will clear out all spam from the net, but we can rest easy, >knowing that this particular spammer has been stopped. Monee, this is a perfect example of an on-the-ball administrator doing a fine job in the public interest. Way to go, Primenet. :) To play Satan's Legal Council a bit further, I wonder what everyone thinks about the registry idea I mentioned in my past post about Peter's pissing but with the added principle that people's personal addresses would be part of the releasable registry information in extreme cases, i.e. if a participating admin submits a specific request to the governing body that administers the registry, the offending spammer's complete account information could be released to designated law enforcement officials, eg. the FCC or FBI Fraud Unit. If this is clearly set forth in any new personal or business account agreement, then it would be clearly understood that abuse of the resource by a business person who tried to engage in net.fraud on repeated occasions could be traced to a credit account or street address for further legal action. The "carrot" here is that everyone reads the standard, UL-approved* instructions, like someone who takes a test that forces them to read and ascribe to the rules of the road to get a driver's licence, will not be able to claim ignorance of basic netiquette. Everyone goes on to the net knowing that if they drive on the sidewalks, someone who carries the "stick" part of the bargain is going to come looking for them. The sooner we draw a direct connection in the minds of users between the carrot and the stick, to sooner a lot of this nonsense will abate. There will always be a few left, but they're made for the stick, and the stick is made for them, I'm afraid to say. I'm sure C&S and a few sympatico ambulance-chaser types would have something invigorating to say about this idea from a Martian Constitution standpoint, but it seems to me that there is a legitemate need to prevent against would-be net.carpetbaggers abusing the "untraceable" aspects of the net by forcing anyone who wants to offer "goods and services" on the "commercial" side of the net to establish some sort of terra firma from which to operate. This could eventually have far-reaching implications for the quality and tone of business on the net. Think a minute: cigarette companies have been banned from advertising on the vidiot box for decades now, but does anything prevent them from appearing on the "hi-res screen" even if they can't appear on the "small screen?" BTW, I'm not advocating "no anonymity" at all, just that the net's admins be easily able to cooperate when establishing standard netiquette principles. Anyone who wants to point the list and/or me at any existing examples of this sort of worldwide registry or cooperative effort (UVV is a good one) is welcome to educate me. :) dave * UL... Underadministrator's Laboratories? :) _______________________________________________________________________ Peter Piper produced a poor picture by placing his pointer over a pixel in the very part of the Picker that promised plotter problems whenever a program polled a particular parameter page through the parallel port. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 17:29:44 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA01765 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA01760; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.92] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id RAA06636; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:16:24 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 17:18:05 -0800 To: Jason and Jill From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? Cc: JaDe , list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 8:55 am 11/11/95, Jason and Jill wrote: >People almost never change the subject of >their reply, and procmail can be sent to quietly dump any incomming mail >with that subject to /dev/null. So a spammer can get in a gigabyte of >hate mail, core files, uudecoded gifs of Orson Well's butt, etc., and >with three simple lines in their .procmailrc set things so they never see >a single reply. An excellent point: always change the subject line a bit if you complain. >Without the lists commands, spammers will stuck trying to build >distributions lists from meta-lists and the like, a much more daunting >process than getting a nice, perfectly arranged, column of address to >mail to. Another excellent point: use the technology to make it as hard to spam as possible. Reminds me of the double-edged swords the government uses to restrict crypto and control explosive materials. This leads to much more powerful crypto (good) or more dangerously simple and ubiquitous explosives (not so good), but it also lets a monitoring agency (hopefully a responsible one, but I s'pose they all become corrupt) pick up on who rents the "how to build your own homemade atomic bomb" videos down at Blockbuster and suspend their rental card indefinitely if they actually try to build one and detonate it. From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 11 19:23:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA02955 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA02950 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 58; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:03:15 PST Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:03:12 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: bh@hq.stargame.org CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009993F0.CFAEDD94.58@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: Are You Pissed? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"bh@hq.stargame.org" 11-NOV-1995 15:45:07.85 > Subj: Re: Are You Pissed? > > > On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Monee C. Kidd wrote: > > > >Wait a minute... Peter Quizert from Eau Claire is selling piss kits?!? > > > ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ > > >Is this a _joke_? ;) > > > > > >If it is, it's a pretty bad one, but whether it's a 'namephreak' gag or > > >not, it's becoming apparent to me that we have achieved a virtual state of > > >war with the spammers. I'm pretty sick of Spam in my diet... it would be > > >one thing if I was scooping it out of the can and heaping it on my _own_ > > >plate, but I'm not: someone is leaning over my shoulder and spreading it > > >nice and thick on my toast for me. >gag< > > > > [rest snipped] > > > > The postmaster on primenet.com is a pretty swift one. I got this in > > response to my note to him: > > {responce from postmaster snipped} > > I got the same thing from them. I wish that all postmasters were this > swift as far as taking care of spams. Things would be a lot better if > they were. I like the part where they charge the ex-customer for the > time required to "clean up" their mess. > > At least there are some sysadmins out there that are about stopping > things like this. If only they all were. > > Brian > Really. I wish other ISP's would take a lesson from this. And while I'm wishing, it would be nice it we could get some payback for our wasted time. In retrospect, RTM got a bad rap... -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 07:53:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA15178 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 07:42:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA15173 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 07:42:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 10:44:51 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: "list" command and blocking spams Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9511121044.aa01655@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ken Mayer wrote: >It should be fairly easy to add a "shunning" feature to resend, it's >pretty close to the $opt_I code. Addresses that match regular expressions >in a config file get dropped, or the sender gets a bounce message "Your >address has been used for spamming, we will no longer distribute mail from >this address. If you feel that there has been an error, contact >majordomo-owner@site.org.dom." The problem I see with this aproach is that it won't work. You'll have to allow an address to spew once before you can add it to your regexp list. Kinda defeats the purpose of it, no? Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 08:53:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA15673 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 08:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA15658 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 08:40:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [198.69.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id LAA22896 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:06:03 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA04344; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:06:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:06:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jason and Jill cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "list" command and blocking spams In-Reply-To: <9511121044.aa01655@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >It should be fairly easy to add a "shunning" feature to resend, it's > >pretty close to the $opt_I code. Addresses that match regular expressions > >in a config file get dropped, or the sender gets a bounce message "Your > >address has been used for spamming, we will no longer distribute mail from > >this address. If you feel that there has been an error, contact > >majordomo-owner@site.org.dom." > > The problem I see with this aproach is that it won't work. You'll have to > allow an address to spew once before you can add it to your regexp list. > Kinda defeats the purpose of it, no? > Yes, this really would only be good against spammers who either are posting from a system they own, or from a system that doesn't do anything about spammers. It wouldn't do a damned thing to stop things like the recent primenet spam. We have to do things to make spamming more difficult, instead of just worrying about the cleanup. Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 10:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA17276 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA17271 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA26657 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:58:09 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199511121758.KAA26657@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Bulk Forged Subscriptions To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:58:08 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I just logged on to find that the following six addresses had been bulk-subscribed to all eleven of my mailing lists (six lists + five digests): anon3c31 articles cliff garner meetings syanide You do the math. This was definitely helped along by a "lists" command, and I suspect that all the other lists at my site suffered the same fate. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 11:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18735 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:14:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA18730; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 11:17:11 +0100 To: Lazlo Nibble , list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Bulk Forged Subscriptions Cc: root@eagle.ais.net, postmaster@eagle.ais.net, root@ais.net, postmaster@ais.net Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:58 AM 11/12/95, Lazlo Nibble wrote: >I just logged on to find that the following six addresses had been >bulk-subscribed to all eleven of my mailing lists (six lists + five digests): > > anon3c31 > articles > cliff > garner > meetings > syanide > >You do the math. This was definitely helped along by a "lists" command, and >I suspect that all the other lists at my site suffered the same fate. All of our lists got hit by this as well. I keep a copy of all incoming messages sent to majordomo@greatcircle.com (it's a useful debugging tool), so I was able to examine the original messages. They all have headers that look like: Received: from eagle.ais.net (eagle.ais.net [199.0.154.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA07176 for ; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 00:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from boardwatch.com by eagle.ais.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #18) id m0tEXlT-000DCUC; Sun, 12 Nov 95 02:27 CST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 12 Nov 95 02:27 CST From: syanide Subject: subscribe To: majordomo@greatcircle.com Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The messages were all injected at machine eagle.ais.net. Its SMTP server apparently believes whatever clients tell it in the "HELO" line, so the "Received: from boardwatch.com" is bogus. I don't know if the folks at eagle.ais.net have logs through which they could track this back further, perhaps to see where the SMTP connection came from. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 13:55:05 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA23035 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from imc.imc.org (center.imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id NAA23030; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.40.31] (user31.znet.com [165.227.40.31]) by imc.imc.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id NAA08644; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:34:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@imc.imc.org (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 13:36:39 -0800 To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: paulh@imc.org (Paul Hoffman) Subject: Re: Bulk Forged Subscriptions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 2:17 AM 11/12/95, Brent Chapman wrote: >All of our lists got hit by this as well. > . . . So, Brent, is this a good time to ask when there might be a version of Majordomo that lets the administrator turn off "lists" and "who"? I've hacked in my own that turns them off for the whole site, but would certainly prefer to have a supported version, maybe even one that lets me do it on a list-by-list basis. --Paul Hoffman From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 12 14:23:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA23799 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:02:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA23790; Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:04:40 +0100 To: paulh@imc.org (Paul Hoffman), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Bulk Forged Subscriptions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 1:36 PM 11/12/95, Paul Hoffman wrote: >At 2:17 AM 11/12/95, Brent Chapman wrote: > >>All of our lists got hit by this as well. >> . . . > >So, Brent, is this a good time to ask when there might be a version of >Majordomo that lets the administrator turn off "lists" and "who"? I've >hacked in my own that turns them off for the whole site, but would >certainly prefer to have a supported version, maybe even one that lets me >do it on a list-by-list basis. As it says in the "Brent FAQ" (the 3-page auto-response everyone gets when the send me email :-) If you have suggestions or requests for new features for Majordomo, you should send them to the Majordomo-Workers@GreatCircle.COM mailing list. I no longer play an active role in the development and support of Majordomo, though GreatCircle.COM is still the official "home" of Majordomo, and thus plays host to the Majordomo-related mailing lists and master anonymous FTP archive. The lead developer of Majordomo these days is Chan Wilson . -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 13 00:23:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id AAA18262 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:21:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.72]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA18244 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id AAA23314; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:21:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199511130821.AAA23314@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 00:21:47 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Early warning for mailing list prober Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Look out for the address "ksmith@iaf.net" -- I've gotten a couple of "lists" command messages addressed to majordomo on various non-UNIX desktop systems that have never even run SMTP servers, let alone Majordomo, but may appear in netnews postings; some of these are quite old hostnames and never existed except as aliases. I sent back an inquiry/warning; we'll see what turns up. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 13 07:53:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA06137 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 06:54:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from svcs1.digex.net (svcs1.digex.net [204.91.197.224]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA06068; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 06:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from GWFX1.sysorex.com (gwfx1.sysorex.com [204.192.18.20]) by svcs1.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA26150; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 09:18:58 -0500 Received: from ccMail by GWFX1.sysorex.com (SMTPLINK V2.10.08) id AA816285484; Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:58:46 EST Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 09:58:46 EST From: "Dave Druitt" Message-Id: <9510138162.AA816285484@GWFX1.sysorex.com> To: bounces@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls-standards@GreatCircle.COM, firewalls@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-docs@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, wvfc-members@GreatCircle.COM, Peter Quizert Subject: Re: Are You Preapred? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Are You Preapred? Author: Peter Quizert at GWFX1 Date: 11/11/95 3:59 AM The Problem: Most companies require a pre-employment drug test. If you are seeking employment, on probation, or in the military, you will have to take a drug test. Even hard working employees that do not use drugs are at risk. The REAL Solution: DON't USE DRUGS! From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 13 11:53:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA15743 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA15738 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:42:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA06027; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 14:42:56 -0500 Message-Id: <9511131942.AA06027@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "list" command and blocking spams In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 12 Nov 95 11:06:00 EST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 13 Nov 95 14:42:55 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> >It should be fairly easy to add a "shunning" feature to resend, it's >> >pretty close to the $opt_I code. Addresses that match regular expressions >> >in a config file get dropped, or the sender gets a bounce message "Your >> >address has been used for spamming, we will no longer distribute mail from >> >this address. If you feel that there has been an error, contact >> >majordomo-owner@site.org.dom." >> >> The problem I see with this aproach is that it won't work. You'll have to >> allow an address to spew once before you can add it to your regexp list. >> Kinda defeats the purpose of it, no? >> >Yes, this really would only be good against spammers who either are >posting from a system they own, or from a system that doesn't do anything >about spammers. It wouldn't do a damned thing to stop things like the >recent primenet spam. We have to do things to make spamming more >difficult, instead of just worrying about the cleanup. I won't disagree with making spamming more difficult. Closing the list is one tactic along that line. But I _will_ disagree with the suggestion that adding a "shunning" feature to resend won't work. I did just that here and it has stopped a number of recent spams from making it through to my lists. Not just repeat spams like magazines, but also ones that haven't hit my lists yet. How is this so? Because when an early warning message is posted here on list-managers I add it's From: or Subject: or perhaps both to the regexp list and if resend detects it it will bounce. This method has choked a number of first-time spams at my site. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 13 12:53:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA17003 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id MAA16998 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7/8.6.11) with ESMTP id OAA26327 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 1995 14:29:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199511132029.OAA26327@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: re the magazine subscription spam Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 14:29:23 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's what I sent today to postmaster@free.org in response to the latest round of the FREE! magazine subscription thing still coming from Kevin Lipsitz. He got kicked off ixc.net but now he's moved onto free.org instead. I will check on the newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.misc for the latest updates. -- Chris Koenigsberg ------- begin forwarded message ----------- To: postmaster@free.org Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, header-people@mc.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Kevin Lipsitz magazine subscription spamming from your site Dear postmaster@free.org, Apparently the notorious Kevin Lipsitz has now moved his obnoxious "FREE magazine subscription" email spam operation to your systems (ppp007.free.org) after he was kicked off his last host at ixc.net. Enclosed is a copy that I received today. The contents of the message (he sent it through the "header-people" mailing list, a favorite target of his) are identical to the ones that Kevin Lipsitz had been sending outpreviously from PPP nodes at ixc.net, with which he has enraged a large percentage of the Internet user population. I advise you to take action and terminate Kevin Lipsitz's access to your services as soon as possible, or there is going to be trouble coming your way, once the majority of his enraged recipients figure out that you are responsible for his latest perpetration of fraud. The majority of them might not be as polite as I have learned to be (I'm a postmaster too so I sympathize with you). Notice that all the "To:" and "From": headers on his message are forged (they're the same as his last several ones). You can follow the history of Kevin Lipsitz and how he's been tracked down, kicked off of ixc.net and how they may have to sue him in court for fraud, by reading the Usenet newsgroup "news.admin.net-abuse.misc". Here is a message I received from the ixc.net administrators after they terminated Kevin Lipsitz's access to their services. Unfortunately, it looks like you're going to be forced to take the same action that they have, since he's using you now: ------------- Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 21:41:45 -0500 (EST) >From: Kathryn Kelly Subject: Spamming complaint Dear Sir or Ma'am: We regret that you received electronic mail of an inappropriate nature from our site, ixc.net, about magazine subscriptions. This was out of our control as we provide free internet accounts to those who need them. We have turned off our program to allow automatic creation of new accounts. We now check each user's phone number and are not opening multiple accounts for the same individual. We wish you to do something for us. We have the address where the individual sending out this material receives his physical mail. Please send a letter of complaint to the postmaster at Postmaster Staten Island NY 10312 Regarding the person at this address: Magazine Club Inquiry Center Att. Internet Services Department P. O. Box 120990 Staten Island NY 10312 0990 ------------------------------------------- Next, after my .signature, I enclose a complete copy of the message Kevin Lipsitz forwarded out through your "ppp007.free.net" node. Sincerely, Chris Koenigsberg U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services ckk@uchicago.edu, postmaster@uchicago.edu ------- Forwarded Message >From header-people-errors@mc.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 11 04:31:21 1995 Return-Path: header-people-errors@mc.lcs.mit.edu Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu (mc.lcs.mit.edu [18.111.0.179]) by prism.uchicago.edu (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id EAA20506 for ; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 04:28:03 -0600 Received: from mc.lcs.mit.edu by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa26298; 11 Nov 95 5:18 EST Received: from [132.206.27.12] by mc.lcs.mit.edu id aa26289; 11 Nov 95 5:14 EST Received: from [199.3.242.38] (ppp007.free.org [199.3.242.38]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id EAA16681; Sat, 11 Nov 1995 04:50:30 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: [199.3.242.38] (ppp007.free.org [199.3.242.38]) X-Sender: yoshio@osak.ac.jp (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: FREE-magazine-subscription-offer@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int Approved: moderator Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 18:05:30 +0900 X-PH: V3.6.1@prism To: yoshio@osak.ac.jp From: yoshio@osak.ac.jp, agc03255@niftyserv.or.jp, agc03895@niftyserv.or.jp, abd03395@niftyserv.or.jp, nak@sinnica.edu.tw, chu@aoone.net.au, jtw@dialicks.co.nz, harry@nitec.ac.jp, leeni@osaka.ac.jp, gar@unee.edu, seng@pll.my, tov04894@niftyserv.or.jp, rey02834@niftyserv.or.jp, jui@pll.my, hree@pll.my, kari@osaka.ac.jp, are04355@niftyserv.or.jp, yxr03785@niftyserv.or.jp, anb02395@niftyserv.or.jp, tfg@sinnica.edu.tw, veb@aoone.net.au, yre@dialicks.co.nz, alan@nitec.ac.jp, naga@osak.ac.jp, "Association of International Students, Executive Board\ of Directors, Japan Chapter" Subject: AOIS Approved News Release: World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions delivered to *any* country (1,500+ USA titles to choose from) + FREE 1 yr. subscription (choose from 295+ titles) - -----> NOTE: Please first read my note which appears below the "Request for more info Form." Then, to get more info, just fill out the "Request for More Info" form completely and email it back to the company. To make it easier for you to reply, I have put their address in the "Reply-To" field, which means you can just use your email software to reply to this message in order to get that address to pop-up in your "To:" field. <----- *------------cut here-----------------------------------------------* REQUEST FOR MORE INFO: please return *only* this section only via internet email to: FREE-magazine-subscription-offer@0.5.5.1.7.6.9.8.1.7.1.tpc.int Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged. If you do not have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you until you do have one. If you saw this message, then you should have one. :) [ ..... rest deleted ..........] ----- end forwarded message about magazine subscription spam -- From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 14 06:53:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA08413 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 06:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from reg-lab (reg-lab.neirl.org [198.112.204.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA08408 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 06:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from caladan.neirl.org by reg-lab (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA27552; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 09:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: carolg@neirl.org Received: from ANDOVER-Message_Server by caladan.neirl.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 14 Nov 1995 09:40:03 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 09:39:27 -0500 From: Carol Godfrey To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: bc'd on list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Even though I have unjoined this list I am still getting messages because someone has bc'd me on the list. Please tell me how to get off?? Thank you. carolg@neirl.org From list-managers-owner Wed Nov 15 04:23:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id DAA11581 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 03:54:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.one.net (mail.one.net [198.30.92.102]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id DAA11576 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 03:54:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mr-howell.island.one.net (root@mr-howell.island.one.net [198.30.92.114]) by mail.one.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id GAA20428 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 06:54:49 -0500 Received: (from rodney@localhost) by mr-howell.island.one.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) id IAA07438; Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:59:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:59:21 -0500 (EST) From: Rodney Sizemore X-Sender: rodney@mr-howell.island.one.net To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: bc'd on list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 14 Nov 1995, Carol Godfrey wrote: > Even though I have unjoined this list I am still getting messages because > someone has bc'd me on the list. Please tell me how to get off?? > > Thank you. > > carolg@neirl.org Likewise for me. Please take me off!!! .--> O n e N e t C o m m u n i c a t i o n s <--. | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | | Rodney J. Sizemore Jr. - rodney@one.net - (513) 326-6000 | | Accounts Director @ System Development @ Project Planning | `----------------> sales@one.net # http://www.one.net <---------------' From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 17 16:25:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA20941 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA20929 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:55:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-950602) id PAA04507; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:55:44 -0800 Received: from netcom13.netcom.com(192.100.81.125) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma004503; Fri Nov 17 15:55:09 1995 Received: from [129.46.82.82] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id PAA02255; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:52:20 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 15:54:24 -0800 To: List Managers List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Spam Alert (IBB Invitation) Cc: postmaster@winternet.net, postmaster@netcom.com, postmaster@ibb.com, ibbcom@ibb.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Friends, Roamin's, Postmasters, List managers can getRegExp on "ibb.com" to weed this bogatudinaciously annoying "invitational bonus" spam and everything else from that domain out of their list mail. I guess NOW we need a "_Better_ Internet Business Bureau" to watch out for (l)users like these "IBB" guys, eh? For now, I say remove 'em indiscriminately from your domain until they learn. ................................. cut here ................................ Return-Path: [blah elided] Received: from ibb_invitation.ibb_invitation.com ([198.147.113.1]) by winternet.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09921; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:56:09 GMT Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:56:09 GMT Message-Id: <199511171156.LAA09921@winternet.net> X-Sender: ibbcom@ibb.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: invite@ibb.com (IBB Invitation) Subject: FREE WEB PAGE INVITATION _____________________ BY INVITATION ONLY Please read carefully DO NOT DISCARD!!! FREE WEB PAGE! FREE WEB SITE! FREE "BUSINESS CREDIT REPORT"! You're invited to become a member of The Internet Business Bureau. As a member you'll receive a full 6 months in our "Internet Incubator Program"! You'll get a full color home page including all HTML programming of links, messages, scanning as well as unlimited e-mail delivery of orders. Your Worldwide Web address and web site becomes "active" the day your membership is approved! Our mall location receives over 40,000 visitors a day!!! We're also listed on major search engines all over the Internet. You'll also receive a free copy of the "The Business Credit Report", learn how get instant credit for stationary, office supplies as well as how to get business bank loans and business charge cards! YOU MUST CALL WITHIN THE NEXT 48 HOURS TO KEEP YOUR INVITATIONAL STATUS ACTIVE! CALL TOLL FREE 1-800-952-6435 OR (909) 941-3411 MON-SAT 8:00AM 6:00PM (PST). INVITATIONAL CONTROL CODE IBB 7117-768 Please have this notice handy when calling so your invitation control code can be verified. ***************************************************************************** 48 HOURS ONLY --- Invitational Bonus!!! Get FREE Internet Access on the IBB Network, includes Netscape Navigator , Eudora E-mail and FTP services. ***************************************************************************** THIS IS A SPECIAL INVITATION AND DEMAND ON THE INCUBATOR PROGRAM IS HEAVY. IF LINES ARE BUSY , PLEASE TRY AGAIN OR FAX US SO AN EXTENSION CAN BE GRANTED. WARNING: There will be no further attempt to reach you regarding this matter. Your cooperation is vital. Only those notified by electronic mail are eligible. The IBB reserves the right to accept or reject any membership request. The Internet Business Bureau, 3633 E. Inland Empire, Empire Towers Bldg. # 265, Ontario CA 91764. (909) 941-3411, Fax (909) 941-3412. IBB 1995 All rights reserved (c). From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 17 16:55:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA22933 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA22928 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:44:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id QAA10013 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:45:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199511180045.QAA10013@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:45:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Spam Alert (IBB Invitation) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave Del Torto writes: > Friends, Roamin's, Postmasters, > > List managers can getRegExp on "ibb.com" to weed this bogatudinaciously > annoying "invitational bonus" spam and everything else from that domain out > of their list mail. > > I guess NOW we need a "_Better_ Internet Business Bureau" to watch out for > (l)users like these "IBB" guys, eh? For now, I say remove 'em > indiscriminately from your domain until they learn. I sent back a spam complaint to the site (postmaster@ibb.com) and to the people who seem to be their service provider (per the headers -- winternet.net). When I did a "whois ibb.com" I found that the admin contact for the domain was at Primenet, which is a good sign, since Primenet is celebrated for not tolerating spammers as customers. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 17 17:24:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA24035 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 17:06:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA24021 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 17:06:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage951022) id UAA02674 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 17 Nov 1995 20:05:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 20:05:54 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199511180105.UAA02674@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: over-quota/full mailbox should be a retryable smtp error Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk well, looks like ibm.net does the sensible thing. sure would be nice if the other service providers did the same thing! -ken --- %mailq RAA20369 22971 Fri Nov 17 17:24 harley-request@thinkage.on.ca (Deferred: 452 ... User over quota) cbrunne@ibm.net From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 19 09:24:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA04650 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 19 Nov 1995 09:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA04645 for ; Sun, 19 Nov 1995 09:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA08284 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 19 Nov 1995 10:45:35 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id KAA13423 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 19 Nov 1995 10:06:16 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511191606.KAA13423@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: ML Mass Subscription (from the net) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 10:06:16 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: llurch@networking.stanford.edu (Rich Graves) > Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc > Subject: More Mass List Subscribing -- target me > Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 00:22:00 -0800 > Organization: Networking Systems, Stanford University > Message-ID: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Apparently in retaliation for my successful little investigation of the > bulkd@valleynet.net email spammer (see news.admin.net-abuse.misc), someone > is attempting to subscribe my accounts to every listserv on the Internet. > I have implemented a procmail filter, but to reduce load, please do not > honor any request to subscribe the following patterns of addresses for the > next week, and unsubscribe any subscriptions made today: > > llurch@(.*).stanford.edu > ge.rcg@forsythe.stanford.edu > rich.graves@(.*).stanford.edu > > I am bloody serious. > > Please forward this message to any relevant listowner lists you're on. > > How can anyone possibly be this stupid? > > - -rich > llurch@networking.stanford.edu > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQCVAwUBMK7oE43DXUbM57SdAQF7xwQAkGiucZ4wgcVQg1xa7pfpUGWzusVTqVud > 6li1dw06fhj461yGhR6DzpoGUaksuBMgJl4gewV2dZuz5kmDpsaGYoYUq5BdAArA > XfWaWM3YpouEcQNee+BChKHGv/gWeWDnRWj6GkfbNyOoF2tiAY6rS9TlkYNIUzuU > ZjfERSgKwrg= > =yE1h > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- > rich > llurch@networking.stanford.edu > moderator of the win95netbugs list > http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~llurch/win95netbugs/faq.html From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 20 21:54:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA28446 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 20 Nov 1995 21:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id VAA28437 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 1995 21:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage951022) id AAA16197; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:30:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:30:23 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199511210530.AAA16197@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: subscription forgery alert (music mailing lists?) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk probable mailbombing attempt: - the Message-ID clashed with the From - no subject line - the message body did not identify explicitly the digest name and upon closer examination of the Message-ID and Received we see 'judgmentday' cute. - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada [43.47N 80.52W] metallica-request@thinkage.on.ca --- >From: >Received: from judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.83.37]) > by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage951022) with ESMTP > id WAA11672 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:54:31 -0500 (EST) >Received: from a by judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.7.1/2.2) > with SMTP id WAA08111; Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:55:39 -0500 (EST) >Message-Id: <199511210355.WAA08111@judgmentday.rs.itd.umich.edu> >Date: Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:55:39 -0500 (EST) > >subscribe From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 21 06:24:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA10038 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:20:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA10033 for ; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:20:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.1 VAX) id 15; Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:20:34 PST Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 06:20:32 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <00999B61.ED220E46.15@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: SPAM hits TV... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It looks like Hormel is attempting to cash in on the new use of their trademark - there is a new ad on TV, using the music from a late-fifties/early sixties du-wop/"girl group" hit as the theme music. I thought this was pretty ironic, or either a brilliant marketing campaign. Don't care for the commercial personally. though... -HWM From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 16:24:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA11903 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 16:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA11897 for ; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 16:16:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA22998 ; for ; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:17:06 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199511250017.TAA22998@access2.digex.net> Subject: DoSomething opportunity To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:17:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To follow up on what Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no said ... Al Gilman: > Most of what you have to worry about is mail-client-generic and > should be handled by a reference by title to whatever the mail > security group tells us. Harald Alvestrand: Oops - no such group.....I would like to have one, though; DRUMS isn't supposed to write very much new prose, so it doesn't cut it. Volunteers? Folks, >From time to time I have heard complaints about [WebVendor] putting SpamEngines on every desktop on the globe. In the quote above asks for volunteers to formulate an IETF position on how a WebTool should handle a "Mailto:" URL so as not to exploit nor amplify the SecurityHoles in Internet Mail. I stronly recommend that people with an interest in the Email side of the Internet answer this call. This is pretty much the call-to-arms that Norbert was looking for. Harald's is the right ear to get, to start the ball rolling for an IETF WG or whatever it takes. The IETF is the right vehicle to define practices that we can start pressuring [WebVendor]s to follow. I will be in touch with Harald to try to make sure something happens. You can get in touch with him or stay in touch with me. Al Gilman asgilman@access.digex.net http://access.digex.net/~asgilman/ References: news:info.ietf.smtp From list-managers-owner Fri Nov 24 18:54:07 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA14098 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA14093 for ; Fri, 24 Nov 1995 18:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23771 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 24 Nov 1995 18:33:10 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA21695 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Fri, 24 Nov 1995 18:33:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199511250233.AA21695@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org Subject: Re: DoSomething opportunity In-Reply-To: <199511250017.TAA22998@access2.digex.net> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 95 18:33:10 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al wrote: > > In the quote above asks for > volunteers to formulate an IETF position on how a WebTool should > handle a "Mailto:" URL so as not to exploit nor amplify the > SecurityHoles in Internet Mail. I'm skeptical that much can be done. I'm working on another front: trying to inform people that web netiquette requires that one never ever ever put up a mailto: address without express consent from the recipient at that address. It's just downright rude. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 13:24:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA00315 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA00310 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 13:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id QAA09579; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 16:06:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199511252106.QAA09579@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Michelle Dick cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: DoSomething opportunity In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Nov 1995 18:33:10 PST." <199511250233.AA21695@bolero.rahul.net> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 16:06:37 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm skeptical that much can be done. I'm working on another front: > trying to inform people that web netiquette requires that one never > ever ever put up a mailto: address without express consent from the > recipient at that address. fine and good. but netiquette is demonstrated to have scaling problems, so it probably won't work as a solution by itself. how about we (a) encourage the netiquette that you suggest, and (b) encourage web browsers to include an extra header or two in any message sent to a mailto URL that states (at least) the URL of the web page that contained the mailto? this would allow two things: 1) the person receiving all of the mail could complain to the referring site and ask them to stop doing so (for the sake of good netiquette) 2) the person receiving all of the mail could filter it out based on the presence of that extra header and its contents. Keith From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 14:54:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA02695 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA02690 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id OAA11164 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:35:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199511252235.OAA11164@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:35:47 +0000 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick writes: > I'm skeptical that much can be done. I'm working on another front: > trying to inform people that web netiquette requires that one never > ever ever put up a mailto: address without express consent from the > recipient at that address. > > It's just downright rude. Hmmmm. This is the first time I have heard of this, and though I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, I would not think that this should be raised to the level of a consensus, i.e., "web netiquette requires." In fact, several authoring/translation tools that I've seen (in ads, show, books, etc.) can be configured to automatically generate mailto: URLs whenever they come across e-mail addresses in a document being converted to HTML. I wouldn't have thought anyone would find this objectionable, but then I was surprised about the debate over unwanted hypertext links in the "Babes of the Web" (Toups) controversy. The mailto: URL was sort of a hack, anyway; since it was not in early versions of Mosaic people seem to think it is a Netscape-ism, but actually it comes from Lynx, the text browser, and the author (Lou Montulli) wanted people to have some way to send mail directly from Lynx without quitting or suspending the program, since most users were on a non-windowing system -- if they were using Mosaic they could just cut- and-paste the address into their mail program, but Lynx users were likely to have only a single terminal session available. Personally, I don't see the difference between a plain e-mail address appearing in a Web document and the same address converted to a mailto: URL -- I think the real netiquette issue is how the address (mailto: or not) is presented and whether readers are urged to send mail to an inappropriate address (such as a list posting address instead of a list server or -request address) by the page's author. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 15:54:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA03571 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 15:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from clsn1102.noble.mass.edu (clsn1102.noble.mass.edu [134.241.60.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id PAA03566 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 15:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from et@localhost) by clsn1102.noble.mass.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA19398; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 18:29:29 -0500 Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 18:29:28 -0500 (EST) From: Elizabeth Thomsen To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I like it when I see references to my lists on Web pages (for example, Literature guides) with the subscription address changed to a mailto. People using the mailto at least get the address right. On a semi-related matter, I have been careful over the past year to never post the actual mailing address of any of my lists, listname@world.std.com, because if people see this address, some number of them will send their subscriptions there, and somone will pick up the posting or the info file somewhere and include it on their Web site or in a FAQ or guide, and software will convert it to a mailto. I always refer to my lists as just "Bronte" or "Trollope" or whatever with the full subscription address as the only thing that looks like an e-mail address. I also write all documentation about other lists in this format. Saves a lot of headaches, especially now with the FAQ's all being HTMLized with mailto's. Elizabeth Thomsen From list-managers-owner Sat Nov 25 19:54:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA10023 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA10018 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23991 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:48:49 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA01611 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:48:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199511260348.AA01611@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? In-Reply-To: <199511252235.OAA11164@server.postmodern.com> Date: Sat, 25 Nov 95 19:48:48 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael wrote: > Michelle Dick writes: > > I'm skeptical that much can be done. I'm working on another front: > > trying to inform people that web netiquette requires that one never > > ever ever put up a mailto: address without express consent from the > > recipient at that address. > > > > It's just downright rude. > > Hmmmm. This is the first time I have heard of this Really? It has been discussed on list-managers in the past, with several people piping up about how evil they felt it was to have their list-related addresses in web mailto:. In fact, when I posted about having problems with this several months ago, one person said I was lucky -- they'd been having problems for a long time. , and though I > don't necessarily disagree with the idea, I would not think that this > should be raised to the level of a consensus, i.e., "web netiquette > requires." In fact, several authoring/translation tools that I've > seen (in ads, show, books, etc.) can be configured to automatically > generate mailto: URLs whenever they come across e-mail addresses in > a document being converted to HTML. I wouldn't have thought anyone > would find this objectionable Well, to summarize the previous discussion on this list, the problem is that there is no way to control how people with broken web browsers parse the mailto:. Further, users generally just click on the link and ignore any explanatary instructions. This results in such events as users subscribing themselves (or others -- for a period of time one link last year resulted in the address 'webmaster@mit.edu' being autoreplied to by an address of mine, much to the displeasure of both them and me). Before I chased down and asked that the mailto: links to my -request address be removed, I was regularly getting newbies who subscribed to my list, were deluged by the volume, and then wholely clueless as to how they got on and irate at me. This despite the fact that the text surrounding the link was very explicit about what the list was about, how high volume it was, and what choosing the link would do -- i.e. there is no way to compensate for this problem with good web design other than to eliminate the 'mailto:' until permission has been obtained. I have nothing against 'mailto:'s being used with permission. A good mailing list compiler only includes lists that have given their permission to be listed, yes? Likewise, a web-based compiler should make it clear that all lists at their site will have mailto:'s up front (in which case I withdraw permission for my list to be included in their site whatsoever), get individual permission from each list for the mailto:, or not include mailto:'s at all. Even to -request addresses. > Personally, I don't see the difference between a plain e-mail address > appearing in a Web document and the same address converted to a > mailto: URL -- I think the real netiquette issue is how the address > (mailto: or not) is presented and whether readers are urged to send > mail to an inappropriate address (such as a list posting address > instead of a list server or -request address) by the page's author. It doesn't work. We tried. Excessively hard. I worked with the first site I had problems with to make the presentation as explicit as possible. Put bold-face instructions around the mailto: link and everything. It just didn't work! I'm tired of dealing with irate people "but, I didn't *know*, I didn't read that ....". So now I go after the mailto: links to my site whenever I can. So far I haven't had a refusal to remove the link. Now, maybe I see these things because my list is large and therefore sensitive -- 2200+ members, 15-50 posts a day. And maybe I just see these things before they become a problem for other lists. I don't see what the big deal is with getting permission first -- I'm sure many lists will grant such permission. If one has to get permission to list a list, then get permission for the mailto. If you write fancy software to html-ize, put in a little extra effort and make it smart enough to consult a permission database before html-izing email addresses. Yes, it is extra work to do this, but being responsible usually is. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 07:24:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA26694 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 07:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA26689 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 07:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA05633 ; for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 10:08:29 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199511261508.KAA05633@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? To: artemis@rahul.net (Michelle Dick) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 10:08:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199511260348.AA01611@bolero.rahul.net> from "Michelle Dick" at Nov 25, 95 07:48:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle, Have you ever considered assigning each new person admitted to the rolls an experienced "buddy," a Big Sister or Big Brother? Assigning these in such a way as to stick to active posters and not overload anyone is something that could be done automatically, and I don't think that the active veterans would mind. I have to admit I find your experience sobering, that no matter what manner of instructions you wrap a MailTo: button in, people will push the button and not read the instructions. But that's the American public, when I think of it. I tend to agree with you that mechanical fixes have a poor prognosis for some of these problems. That's what sends me looking for social approaches like the "Buddy" method. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 08:24:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA28214 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 08:13:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA28209 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 08:13:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09655 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 08:14:35 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA09640 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 08:14:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199511261614.AA09640@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? In-Reply-To: <199511261508.KAA05633@access2.digex.net> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 95 08:14:34 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al wrote: > I have to admit I find your experience sobering, that no matter > what manner of instructions you wrap a MailTo: button in, people > will push the button and not read the instructions. But that's > the American public, when I think of it. I tend to agree with > you that mechanical fixes have a poor prognosis for some of these > problems. That's what sends me looking for social approaches > like the "Buddy" method. A nice idea, but I think the problem is more fundamental. Here's a description of the type of person who blindly clicks the "mailto" button: They are generally the type who have someone else set up their new "multimedia" computer for them and have who don't even have a concept of what email IS. All they know is that they press the little icon and can "surf the net". They point and click willy nilly and think it's all just, gosh, so pretty and neat. A week later their computer savvy friend shows them how to use email, and oops, golly, their mailbox is full to overflowing and oh no, now they either can't receive more mail or their internet provider is charging them more money because they've used up some nebulous disk space somewhere, whatever that is. They delete all the mail. It still comes. Boy, these "internet" people are really mean and nasty, aren't they, how could they do this to this new person just learning the ropes? Under this scenario, more email from a "buddy" won't help. Afterall, all new subscribers to my list get explicit instructions on how to subscribe, unsubscribe, what to expect, and so on. I'm not sure that more email would help. Actually, I like to think that as a whole, the membership of my list naturally tends to "buddy" with new inexperienced members. At least that's what I infer when a new subscriber posts, admitting newbie-hood and then later follows up thanking all the people who sent them helpful email (indeed, they tend to gush that they were a little overwhelmed). I guess what it boils down to is that people who join mailing lists should have at least a basic knowledge of how email works. Prior to the "mailto:", getting subscribed to a list did sort of guarantee at least a working knowledge of email (ability to send a proper subscribe request via email). The "mailto:" subverts this -- making it "convenient" for people who don't even know what email IS, let alone have a basic working knowledge, to get themselves or others subscribed, or create extra work for list owners by sending incoherent email to mailing list addresses. Just to repeat: I'm not against the use of "mailto:" links. I'm against their use without permission. I do admit that if one could get *all* web browsers to force email sent by mailto: to have a special header, then I could divert mail from such sources to /dev/null, dramatically reducing the problem -- and I would also have a mechanism for knowing the problem URL and thus who to complain to about listing my address in a mailto. So, both approaches (working on getting a standard for web browsers and educating web authors on netiquette) are worthwile. Also, it's not only newbies who end up mistakenly in mailto: links. I usually use lynx and more than once have inadvertantly ended up in one. Thankfully, lynx reminds me that getting out is just a ^G away. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 12:24:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA03371 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 12:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA03357 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 12:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA13558 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 14:05:30 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id NAA19075 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 13:10:42 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199511261910.NAA19075@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 13:10:42 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Elizabeth Thomsen: > On a semi-related matter, I have been careful over the past year to > never post the actual mailing address of any of my lists, > listname@world.std.com, because if people see this address, some number > of them will send their subscriptions there, and somone will pick up > the posting or the info file somewhere and include it on their Web site > or in a FAQ or guide, and software will convert it to a mailto. This is a major peeve of mine. People who publish list posting addresses, that is. I've seen it defended because people who want can find them out anyways. They are not the ones I'm worried about. As Michelle has been so aptly illustrating, it's the clueless ones that are the problem here. Let me whip out an anecdote (I always seem to have one of those around). When I was moderating rec.food.recipes, at one point I put the request address in the info .sig appended to the articles. When we started doing that, we started receiving 2 to 3 requests for recipes per day. People saw the "request" and figured that must be where you sent recipe requests, no matter how much I stressed it was an administrative address only. Once we took the -request address out of that .sig, the misdirected submissions stopped. Funny, that. From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 16:24:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA09827 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA09822 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA23371 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:19:11 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA15254 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:19:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270019.AA15254@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 26 Nov 95 16:19:11 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent wrote: > All the "-request" addresses here at GreatCircle.COM return a canned > information file explaining how to use Majordomo to fulfill the user's > request. I therefore have no objection to folks listing our "-request" > addresses in "mailto:" URLs. How about listing your "majordomo" address in mailto:'s without checking with you first? I didn't mean specifically the "-request" address, I meant the one that gets people subscribed -- whatever it is called. Of course, perhaps the day is nearing when we not only have to try very hard to keep not only our active posting address hidden, but also the active subscribe address, and every list will have to add an additional address layer just for info. Hmmm. In which case, a more natural name is something like: list-info@site. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 16:54:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA10532 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA10526; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:34:21 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:37:34 +0100 To: Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:19 PM 11/26/95, Michelle Dick wrote: >Brent wrote: >> All the "-request" addresses here at GreatCircle.COM return a canned >> information file explaining how to use Majordomo to fulfill the user's >> request. I therefore have no objection to folks listing our "-request" >> addresses in "mailto:" URLs. > >How about listing your "majordomo" address in mailto:'s without >checking with you first? They're welcome to; nobody human reads that address either... :-) However, what the users will get back is the standard Majordomo "help" message, instead of the more friendly "here's how to subscribe and unsubscribe" message from the "-request" robot. >I didn't mean specifically the "-request" address, I meant the one >that gets people subscribed -- whatever it is called. > >Of course, perhaps the day is nearing when we not only have to try >very hard to keep not only our active posting address hidden, but also >the active subscribe address, and every list will have to add an >additional address layer just for info. Hmmm. In which case, a more >natural name is something like: list-info@site. I guess you could say that GreatCircle.COM already has that kind of setup... list to post to the list list-request to find out about the list (including how to subscribe) majordomo to actually subscribe -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 17:24:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA12504 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:21:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA12499 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mcb@localhost) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) id RAA15914 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:22:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270122.RAA15914@server.postmodern.com> From: mcb@postmodern.com (Michael C. Berch) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:22:33 +0000 In-Reply-To: <199511270019.AA15254@bolero.rahul.net> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle Dick writes: > Brent wrote: > > All the "-request" addresses here at GreatCircle.COM return a canned > > information file explaining how to use Majordomo to fulfill the user's > > request. I therefore have no objection to folks listing our "-request" > > addresses in "mailto:" URLs. > > How about listing your "majordomo" address in mailto:'s without > checking with you first? > > I didn't mean specifically the "-request" address, I meant the one > that gets people subscribed -- whatever it is called. > > Of course, perhaps the day is nearing when we not only have to try > very hard to keep not only our active posting address hidden, but also > the active subscribe address, and every list will have to add an > additional address layer just for info. Hmmm. In which case, a more > natural name is something like: list-info@site. I'm seeing a lot of frustration in Michelle's postings and from some others (mis-directed at things like mailto: URLs, I think) about the general level of cluelessness among new users of the Net. Point taken, and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but from a list manager's point of view, I think the solution is not obscuring information like -request addresses (etc.), or adding indirection, but simply adopting a different attitude toward list management. In the old days I used to pay careful attention to list requests, often stopping what I was working on to service them; I answered all questions about my lists personally, made sure that addresses were valid, and all that. Some people may still want to try to offer that level of service, but at this point I think you just get diminishing returns. My response to cluelessness and high volume of requests is just to try to automate absolutely everything possible and have form letters for everything that you have to eyeball. The problems Michelle mentioned like people who don't understand the concept of e-mail and fill their mailbox and don't know how to unsubscribe -- well, too bad for them; they'll either figure out how to deal with the problem or not, or eventually their sysadmin or ISP will explain it to them. I'm not going to lose sleep over it. If they send mail to the list-owner address about this, they get a form letter explaining how to use Majordomo to unsubscribe. If they try to send mail to the list posting address complaining about unsubscribing, Majordomo will trap the message before it goes out and forwards it to me, and I send them a form letter telling them how to use Majordomo to unsubscribe *and* telling them not to send list requests to list posting addresses. If a sysadmin or service provider wants a bunch of invalid addresses deleted, they get a form letter telling them how to do it themselves with Majordomo. If somebody claims "Majordomo doesn't work for me" I send them a form letter telling them to send me a copy of what Majordomo sent them back (i.e., "proof") and based on that either send them a form letter that tells them how to find what address they are subscribed as (90% of "Majordomo doesn't work" problems) or a promise to look into it -- and when you get to the end of that string, there are *very* few problems that have to be handled manually. And when mail bounces the bad address just gets moved to the Majordomo "bounces" list; I don't make postmaster inquiries unless there is a mail loop or other problem that actually affects the list. In a lot of cases I don't think the people even know they're getting form letters; the form letters are polite and to the point, and in very simple, non-idiomatic English (for non-native speakers). And if people *still* don't get it, they mostly get ignored, and in a week or two they will have asked a friend or co-worker or their sysadmin or ISP, and get it right. To sum up, my advice is to deal with the "cluelessness" problem by limiting your exposure to it. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 18:54:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA14377 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:26:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA14372 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.82] by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id SAA01122; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:25:29 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:27:54 -0800 To: "E. ALLEN SMITH" From: Dave Del Torto Subject: Cyberangels [FWD from Cypherpunks] Cc: List Managers List Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:26 EDT >From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" >Subject: Cyberangels >To: cypherpunks@toad.com > >Some may have already seen this, but the Guardian Angels are trying to >intrude onto the net... and are doing so in typical clueless newbie >fashion. See the CUDigest web site for more information; the links to the >most significant issues are: > and > . >Some interesting commentary is also in: > . >Incidentally, one way in which they are displaying cluelessness is in >taking L.Detweiler seriously. > -Allen Interesting stuff, Allen, even if some of these "horn-blowers" are a bit clueless, to be sure. There has been some discussion on List-Managers about these issues. Folks there will find some LM-pertinent material on spam wars and growing grassroots organization against it in the first URL (search on "CyberAngels FAQ file" and ": The War Has Started"). An excerpt from cud786's "Attention Spammer" article: > a) Improve majordomo and listserv to recognize obviously forged > headers and dump the messages. This is a simple change. If the > supposedly "verified" From: line is non-conforming, trash the > message. Some examples include: > . more than one "from" address > . totally ridiculous site names, especially where the > top-level domain (the last one) isn't one of the "standard" > three-letter names or a two-letter country code. > > b) A further improvement involves actually verifying the From: > line before sending the message out again. This would be more > work, but would make the spammer's job much more difficult. When > processing a message, majordomo/listserv should open an SMTP > connection to the site shown in the "From:" header. If that can't > be done, the Return-Path and/or Received: headers should be parsed > to find a system that _can_ be connected to. > > If the From: site is "real", majordomo/listserv should go further > and verify that a RCPT-TO: will be accepted by the smtpd at that site. > If it isn't real, at least verify that the next-site in the > return-path is acceptable (RCPT-TO: postmaster@site). Of course, the author's definition of "obvious" is really the crux here, isn't it? :) Well I suppose, it's good that people are at least beginning to think about this on a wider scale. Any general increase in the use of gray matter is a positive thing, IMHO. ;) Anyone have comments on verifying via SMTP? It's probably only viable for low-volume lists, I'd guess. dave ___________________________________________________________________________ "I could be mistaken, maybe it was _another_ bald-headed jigsaw-puzzle- tattooed naked guy." --David Duchovny (Agent Fox Mulder on 'The X-Files') From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 19:24:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA15994 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA15989 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:19:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511270319.TAA15989@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 2971; Mon, 27 Nov 95 05:19:58 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 3828; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 05:19:58 +0200 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 05:08:08 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Cyberangels [FWD from Cypherpunks] To: "E. ALLEN SMITH" , Dave Del Torto cc: List Managers List In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:27:54 -0800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:27:54 -0800 Dave Del Torto said: >An excerpt from cud786's "Attention Spammer" article: Whoever wrote that has no understanding of how e-mail works, how spammers think and work, or, for that matter, how mailing list managers work. In a nutshell, this is a non-working proposal to eliminate messages with forged addresses. Even if the proposal were technically sound, it would do very little to prevent spams. One of the most impopular spammers likes to forge headers to put a short advertisement where people are most likely to see it before they've even opened the message, but if that stops working he'll just add 2+2 and use something like: From: Call.Now.For.New.Low.Price%AOL.COM@PRODIGY.COM Anyway, most of the spams aren't from forged addresses. LISTSERV catches 5-15 spams a week and most of them do not have forged addresses. In fact, it's one person sending multiple forged spams every weekend, plus a bunch of other people sending non-forged spams at various intervals. Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 19:54:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA16744 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from OCELOT.RUTGERS.EDU (ocelot.rutgers.edu [128.6.11.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA16739 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:46:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbcl.rutgers.edu by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01HY46DIXERK8WYMPV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46 EDT Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 22:46 EDT From: "E. ALLEN SMITH" Subject: Re: Cyberangels [FWD from Cypherpunks] To: ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <01HY46DIXERK8WYMPV@mbcl.rutgers.edu> X-Envelope-to: list-managers@greatcircle.com X-VMS-To: IN%"ERIC@SEARN.SUNET.SE" X-VMS-Cc: IN%"list-managers@greatcircle.com" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The purpose of my suggestion (of forwarding spams to the "CyberAngels" was not in order to take care of any particular method of spamming. It was more to encourage them to do something about all recognized spams. I am not sufficiently familiar with list management to make suggestions in regards to filtration; I simply had an idea of how more people could be involved in taking care of the problem. -Allen From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 20:54:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id UAA17739 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 20:24:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA17733 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 20:24:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA01586 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 20:25:07 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA07153 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sun, 26 Nov 1995 20:25:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199511270425.AA07153@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? In-Reply-To: <199511270122.RAA15914@server.postmodern.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 95 20:25:07 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michael wrote: > Michelle Dick writes: > > I'm seeing a lot of frustration in Michelle's postings and from some > others (mis-directed at things like mailto: URLs, I think) about the > general level of cluelessness among new users of the Net. Point > taken, and it will probably get worse before it gets better, but from > a list manager's point of view, I think the solution is not obscuring > information like -request addresses (etc.), or adding indirection, > but simply adopting a different attitude toward list management. Um, I consider myself a rather attentive list owner. And my list management policies have been singled out for praise in more than one book. I do have files of form letters (and all new subscribers are sent 5 seperate info files) and have short commands that allow me to respond to most normal queries with just a couple keystrokes. I even set up my list software (SmartList) to automatically respond to a "faqs" request so that existing subscribers can get a new set of the new-member files anytime they want. The single command "faqs" sends them all the relevent files. (and a trailer at the end of the digest reminds them that if they ever lose their faqs, a new set is just a simple email away). > My response to cluelessness and high volume of requests is just to try > to automate absolutely everything possible and have form letters for > everything that you have to eyeball. The problems Michelle mentioned > like people who don't understand the concept of e-mail and fill their > mailbox and don't know how to unsubscribe -- well, too bad for them; No. What happens, and happened, is that I don't hear peep from them until they send one nasty screaming email to the list posting address and to my postmaster complaining and spewing obscenities and threatening to mail to the list several hundred 100MB files. In my case I have a very nice postmaster who fixed up sendmail so as to reject mail from that person, should they make good on their threat (this was pre list management software, I could handle it myself now -- the list would never see it -- though a mail bomb would still be a problem for the system as a whole). > they'll either figure out how to deal with the problem or not, or > eventually their sysadmin or ISP will explain it to them. I'm not > going to lose sleep over it. Or they mailbomb. > If they send mail to the list-owner address about this, they get > a form letter explaining how to use Majordomo to unsubscribe. The address that repeatedly responded to "webmaster@mit.edu" was just an info address -- I had moved the list and put an autoresponder on the old address, it was no longer a subscribe address. We went like this: mit: Michelle, we are repeatedly getting these info mails from you, can you make them stop. me: Hmmm. The only way you should be getting that is if you send mail to 'address'. mit: well, people are using our web-mail gateway and it sometimes puts our address in the From: line. me: bummer. OK, I'll filter out replies to your address. mit: (a little while later), uh, we are still getting them. me: hmm. looks like there is another address variation that comes to you. I'll filter out all mit.edu mail. mit: thanks How many times should I have to go through this for different addresses just because someone puts a mailto: up *without my permission*? > To sum up, my advice is to deal with the "cluelessness" problem by > limiting your exposure to it. I try to. Which is why I don't want any "mailto:" links to my addresses, thank you very much. I still don't see what's so bad about asking web authors to get permission first. Then, those list owners who don't mind the mailto can have them and those that don't won't. Is there something so terrible about asking permission? Michelle From list-managers-owner Sun Nov 26 23:54:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id XAA24316 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from domen.uninett.no (domen.uninett.no [129.241.131.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id XAA24311 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:38:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from dale.uninett.no by domen.uninett.no with SMTP (PP) id <11686-0@domen.uninett.no>; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:38:26 +0100 Received: from dale.uninett.no (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dale.uninett.no (8.6.9/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA07921; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:06:00 +0100 Message-Id: <199511262206.XAA07921@dale.uninett.no> From: Harald.T.Alvestrand@uninett.no To: Al Gilman cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, klensin@MAIL1.RESTON.MCI.NET Subject: Re: DoSomething opportunity In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Nov 1995 19:17:06 EST." <199511250017.TAA22998@access2.digex.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <7917.817423558.1@dale.uninett.no> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:05:59 +0100 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Al, thanks for CCing me! And thanks for taking the initiative! As an IETF Area Director, I am in fact rather helpless in starting anything if nobody offers to do the work; what time I have is likely to be stolen by day work and all the active groups! What I would be looking for would be something like a "best current practices" document that says, GIVEN that we've chosen to operate an E-mail service with no built-in security, what we can do to minimize the security risks and irritations that we have inflicted upon ourselves. You people probably know more about what should be in there than I do; things like: - recommending that software writers do at least a minimal check on the From: address that people type into their software to see that it is deliverable - recommending that mail logs be kept for a while, so that it is possible to track down fakemail at least part of the way - commenting that is NOT a terribly useful tool for guarding against spam, and also causes irritation for legitimate traffic (or the other way around, of course) If you want to know about procedures for starting IETF Apps area groups, look at http://domen.uninett.no/~hta/ietf/apps/, but there's nothing in the rules that says that something must be an IETF WG to be useful; on the contrary! But to the degree that the IETF can help achieve something of value, I'm all ears! Have fun! Harald A (Note: I'm NOT a member of either list, so I may get hit by a spam filter or a reply-to: adder - don't assume that I will see a reply unless you see my name in the To: or CC: fields!) From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 09:24:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA10347 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id IAA10340 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:24:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199511271625.JAA07853@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id JAA07853; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:25:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? To: asgilman@access.digex.net (Al Gilman) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 95 9:25:16 MST Cc: artemis@rahul.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199511261508.KAA05633@access2.digex.net>; from "Al Gilman" at Nov 26, 95 10:08 am From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > what manner of instructions you wrap a MailTo: button in, people > will push the button and not read the instructions. But that's > the American public, when I think of it. It should go without saying, but in this day and age where it is fashionable to bash Americans, I feel obligated to say this. We have a site in the U.S. with a large number of foreign users, and I can say with confidence that Americans hardly have a monopoly on cluelessness. These comments probably apply equally well to anybody whose experience with the Internet consists solely of running a Web browser and these types generally don't have the slightest idea of how things really work, whether or not they happen to be located within the U.S. --Greg From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 17:54:08 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA23658 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA23653 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [129.46.82.84] by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id QAA09987; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:56:36 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:58:48 -0800 To: postmaster@popd.ix.netcom From: Dave Del Torto Subject: SPAM ALERT (Wolverine Capital) Cc: List Managers List , ralberts@popd.ix.netcom.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Postmaster: SPAM ALERT! (as if you didn't already know :). These "Wolverines" are apparently completely without a clue when it comes to how to use the Internet properly. I recommend suspending their account until they RTFM, and sending a primer on how to get a Web page up as the last piece of official mail they get for a while. >sigh< dave PS: The Spam itself is reprinted below ONLY for the List-Managers list so all the conscientious postmasters and list managers out there can set up killfiles or filters for the "ralberts@popd.ix.netcom.com" address. ................................. cut here ................................ 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CASH GRANTS BY MAIL APPLICATION NAME _______________________________________________ ADDRESS ___________________________________________ CITY ST ZIP ___________________________________________ PHONE ( ______ ) _____________________________________ EMAIL . ADDRESS ______________________________________ GRANT TYPE ( Business or Personal ) _____________________ GRANT AMOUNT ($500-$50,000) _________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Thank you. From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 18:35:56 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA26197 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 18:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id SAA14948 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id TAA14140 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:45:50 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199511270245.TAA14140@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 19:45:49 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Of course, perhaps the day is nearing when we not only have to try > very hard to keep not only our active posting address hidden, but also > the active subscribe address, and every list will have to add an > additional address layer just for info. Hmmm. In which case, a more > natural name is something like: list-info@site. I think this is a wonderful idea; I already publicise my lists by telling people to send an "info " command to my majordomo address. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 18:59:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA26179 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 18:17:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA00267; Sun, 26 Nov 1995 10:02:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 10:06:08 +0100 To: Michelle Dick , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Netiquette of mailto: URLs? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk All the "-request" addresses here at GreatCircle.COM return a canned information file explaining how to use Majordomo to fulfill the user's request. I therefore have no objection to folks listing our "-request" addresses in "mailto:" URLs. People who use those URLs will get back the recorded instructions about how to subscribe; if they can't read their mail and figure out how to follow their instructions, they're not going to be able to subscribe. On this end, no human ever even sees the stuff sent to the "-request" addresses (they're archived, in case somebody gripes about something later, but we don't look at them as they come in). The current release of Majordomo can listen on the "-request" address for each list, and immediately process any requests it recognized. I never did like that idea much (somebody else added the capability); I like my current setup better. -Brent -- Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | For Firewalls Tutorial info: Brent@GreatCircle.COM | 1057 West Dana Street | Tutorial-Info@GreatCircle.COM +1 415 962 0841 | Mountain View, CA 94041 | http://www.greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 19:05:01 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA26784 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 18:27:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA24789; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05878; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:36:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199511280136.TAA05878@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: confirming a subscribe request, Re: FYI In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 Nov 1995 16:53:55 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:36:30 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gail Winfred writes: >I subscribe to a list that does a subscription check. When you subscribe >it returns an acknowledgement letter and asks that the subscriber to >return a confirmation email within 48 hours and no mail is sent until the >subscriber does this. If a confirmation is not received in the specified >time the subscription is cancelled and the subscriber has to resubscribe >if he/she is valid. First, I think that this "confirm before really subscribing" is going to have to become the norm on the Internet, not just for Majordomo lists but for anyone trying to stay sane as a list owner, anywhere except in very sheltered private domains. This would be more appropriate for discussion on the List-managers list, so I have cc'ed it there and I suggest that followups be moved only on to the list-managers list (list-managers-request@greatcircle.com) From list-managers-owner Mon Nov 27 19:54:09 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA28387 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA28382 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA14777 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:25:34 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA17010 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:25:33 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA23376; Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:25:28 -0800 Message-Id: <199511280325.AA23376@jive.rahul.net> Subject: oh no! More mailing list -request spams! To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, yellek@ix.netcom.com, cebrebrus@winternet.com, postmaster@winternet.com Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 19:25:27 -0800 (PST) Cc: postmaster@leonardo.lls.se, dano@pegasus.rutgers.edu, postmaster@pegasus.rutgers.edu, postmaster@twins.rs.itd.umich.edu, ravioli@ix.netcom.com, abuse@netcom.com, rzepela@cvi.hahnemann.edu (Tony Rzepela) Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I guess they are forgeries, not spams. This went on for months, I thought the person responsible had stopped. Then I get these. Can anyone help? From dano@pegasus.rutgers.edu Thu Nov 23 03:47:44 1995 Return-Path: Received: from leonardo.lls.se by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA07582; Thu, 23 Nov 95 03:47:44 -0500 Received: from a (arcturus.oac.uci.edu [128.200.80.25]) by leonardo.lls.se (8.6.11/iko.1.0) with SMTP id JAA00911 for undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:47:38 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:47:38 +0100 From: dano@pegasus.rutgers.edu Message-Id: <199511230847.JAA00911@leonardo.lls.se> Apparently-To: undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca Status: RO subscribe From ravioli@ix.netcom.com Thu Nov 23 03:49:53 1995 Return-Path: Received: from twins.rs.itd.umich.edu by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA07588; Thu, 23 Nov 95 03:49:53 -0500 Received: from a by twins.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.12/2.2) with SMTP id DAA10097; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 03:53:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199511230853.DAA10097@twins.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 03:53:34 -0500 From: ravioli@ix.netcom.com Apparently-To: undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca Status: RO subscribe From yellek@ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 22 22:57:29 1995 Return-Path: Received: from leonardo.lls.se by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA07359; Wed, 22 Nov 95 22:57:29 -0500 Received: from a (arcturus.oac.uci.edu [128.200.80.25]) by leonardo.lls.se (8.6.11/iko.1.0) with SMTP id EAA10926 for undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 04:57:11 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 04:57:11 +0100 From: yellek@ix.netcom.com Message-Id: <199511230357.EAA10926@leonardo.lls.se> Apparently-To: undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca Status: RO subscribe From cebrebrus@winternet.com Thu Nov 23 00:54:31 1995 Return-Path: Received: from leonardo.lls.se by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA07469; Thu, 23 Nov 95 00:54:31 -0500 Received: from a (arcturus.oac.uci.edu [128.200.80.25]) by leonardo.lls.se (8.6.11/iko.1.0) with SMTP id GAA13214 for undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca; Thu, 23 Nov 1995 06:54:14 +0100 Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 06:54:14 +0100 From: cebrebrus@winternet.com Message-Id: <199511230554.GAA13214@leonardo.lls.se> Apparently-To: undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca Status: RO subscribe -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 28 06:56:54 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA14349 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 06:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA14330; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 06:29:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm20.j51.com [199.224.7.244]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA02926; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:29:41 GMT Message-Id: <199511281429.OAA02926@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:30:05 -0500 To: majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: Subscription Confirmations Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not certain that this thread should be taken off of majordomo-workers, because if someone is going to volunteer the necessary code, it will probably be written for majordomo. In any case, for our organization this is a real need. We run a series of over 10 inter-related lists - each subscriber signs up for some subset. Many/most of our subscribers join from our Web site - meaning that they type in their own email addresses. This is an open invitation for members of AOL and CompuServe to demonstrate that they haven't yet figured out the differences between the commercial services and the Internet, or that they are simply clueless. Give me a dollar for each malformed address, and... But on the other hand, I once signed up for a list (Patrick Crispen's ROADMAP, early last year) that had a subscription key, and I blew the deadline and had to do it again. I have this strange feeling that this would hurt our subscriptions. A lot. And we do _want_ subscribers (for the most part). I would like to see majordomo check for a bounce on the welcome message, and auto-delete at that point - perhaps by providing a number key in the header. _That_ doesn't sound too hard. And then majordomo could tell the spammed user, "If you did not intend to subscribe to this list, please reply to this message. Ensure that the reply contains your key, #123456." This doesn't strike me as too difficult to code, but I'm not the one to do it. Any ideas? Ken Menken From list-managers-owner Tue Nov 28 08:01:10 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA16383 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 07:45:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA16373; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 07:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA07420 ; for ; Tue, 28 Nov 1995 10:45:48 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199511281545.KAA07420@access5.digex.net> Subject: Re: Subscription Confirmations To: genesis@j51.com (Project Genesis) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 10:45:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: majordomo-workers@GreatCircle.COM, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199511281429.OAA02926@j51.com> from "Project Genesis" at Nov 28, 95 09:30:05 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: Subscription Confirmations But on the other hand, I once signed up for a list (Patrick Crispen's ROADMAP, early last year) that had a subscription key, and I blew the deadline and had to do it again. I have this strange feeling that this would hurt our subscriptions. A lot. And we do _want_ subscribers (for the most part). I would like to see majordomo check for a bounce on the welcome message, and auto-delete at that point - perhaps by providing a number key in the header. _That_ doesn't sound too hard. And then majordomo could tell the spammed user, "If you did not intend to subscribe to this list, please reply to this message. Ensure that the reply contains your key, #123456." NoWay should an UnDo require a key. This scheme is too demanding of the unwitting victim. Need to make that bloke's life easier than this version does. Do people have experience with using a dedicated mailbox for such transactions? Like "forward this message just as you got it to majordomo-undo@... to cancel this transaction. If you have any questions about what is going on, send any message at all to GarbageDelivery-request@... for further instructions." [I selected forward rather than reply with a bit of trepidation. Low-skill users are more likely to succeed in getting the body of the received message included or attached to a forward than a reply. I never would have guessed this, but I have had to teach people how to include received text in a reply message, by email, not having a copy of their LAN MailTool on my desk to play with!] The fact that one has to address mail to the tool and not a list-mnemonic address for administrative activity never has appealed to me as a friendly user interface. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 09:54:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA15304 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail2.netcom.com [163.179.3.52]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA15297 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:42:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id JAA24095; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:41:22 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA29687; Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:53:38 -0800 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 09:53:38 -0800 Message-Id: <9511301753.AA29687@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Bouncy Bouncy routine Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I suspect this topic has been covered before, but I must have missed it. If so, forgive the re-hash. My main list is up to about 1100 members now, and each posting generates between 10-30 bounce messages. It's hard to tell, since many messages get replicated, or don't come back for three days. Anyway, I finally got around to pruning the list of supposedly "invalid" e-mail addresses (it's a chore to even FIND the right address in a bounce message -- but that's another story) and guess what? About 50% of the "pruned addresses" resulted in a subscriber e-mailing back "hey, why was I unsubscribed?" In other words, I am getting bounce messages for mail that was *also* delivered, and of course the recipient doesn't have a clue unless I complain. Is this the same experience the rest of you have? How do you sort true invalid addresses from semi-true addresses which also deliver? Or should we even care? Thanks in advance for any insights. -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 11:54:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA18603 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from wariat.wariat.org (wariat.wariat.org [192.147.147.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id LAA18598 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.133.233.46] (dial18.apk.net [205.133.233.49]) by wariat.wariat.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA09445 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:35:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:35:35 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd) Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Quoth alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman): [snip] >My main list is up to about 1100 members now, and each posting >generates between 10-30 bounce messages. It's hard to tell, since >many messages get replicated, or don't come back for three days. [snip] >In other words, I am getting bounce messages for mail that was >*also* delivered, and of course the recipient doesn't have >a clue unless I complain. Is this the same experience the rest >of you have? How do you sort true invalid addresses from >semi-true addresses which also deliver? Or should we even >care? My list is up to over 2700 members, fortunately I only post 2 or three times a month, because the bouncing is staggering. There are a couple types of bounces, the ones I unsubscribe are the ones that come back 'user unknown'. There are others, that say 'connection timed out' or 'connection deferred' that seem to indicate a temporary glitch in the net. This is basically the system saying to you, "The line's busy now, but I'm going to call back later." Why do we need to see these bounces, they make up a good 85-90% of the bounce messages I get, and they're meaningless to me. Unless the mail is permenantly not delivered, I don't really care how many times the machine tries to send it. And regardless of how many of these addresses you clear out, there's always going to be new ones from some part of the net that's acting up each time a post is made. -- We humans are a curious sort... | Monee C. Kidd Little girls like dolls and little boys like soldiers. | When we grow up, women like soldiers and men like dolls. | mkidd@apk.net From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 12:25:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA19796 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:23:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tortoise.oise.on.ca (tortoise.oise.on.ca [192.75.177.236]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA19791 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by tortoise.oise.on.ca (5.0/SMI-SVR4 (rsm951016)) id AA13178; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:22:53 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:22:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Avi Hyman, CSG" Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine In-Reply-To: <9511301753.AA29687@znyx.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My list has 1500 and I get about 5-10 bounces a day also. At first I had the auto-delete function (listserv) on, but I found that too many of the bounces were not real (just like you). Now I just dump bounces in a folder and every few days check to see which addresses are habitually bad. Mostly bounces from "service unavailable" errors are temporary, while "user unknown" errors are usually true (about 3/4 of the time). The system works well enough at this point that only about 1 in 20 times is a valid user removed. I know it's labour-intensive, but good relations with my subscribers are worth it. Avi Hyman (moderator H-Judaic@msu.edu / JewStudies@shamash.org) > ____________________________________________________________________ < > Avi Hyman, Communication Systems Analyst ahyman@oise.on.ca < > Ontario Institute for Studies in Education fax: 416-926-4747 < > 252 Bloor St.W, Toronto, Ont. M5S 1V6 ph: 416-923-6641 ext.2770 < > Computing Services Group, 3rd Floor http://www.oise.on.ca/~ahyman < > ____________________________________________________________________ < On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Alan Deikman wrote: > > I suspect this topic has been covered before, but I must have > missed it. If so, forgive the re-hash. > > My main list is up to about 1100 members now, and each posting > generates between 10-30 bounce messages. It's hard to tell, since > many messages get replicated, or don't come back for three days. > > Anyway, I finally got around to pruning the list of supposedly > "invalid" e-mail addresses (it's a chore to even FIND the right > address in a bounce message -- but that's another story) and > guess what? About 50% of the "pruned addresses" resulted in > a subscriber e-mailing back "hey, why was I unsubscribed?" > > In other words, I am getting bounce messages for mail that was > *also* delivered, and of course the recipient doesn't have > a clue unless I complain. Is this the same experience the rest > of you have? How do you sort true invalid addresses from > semi-true addresses which also deliver? Or should we even > care? > > Thanks in advance for any insights. > > > > > -------------------------------- > Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation > alan@znyx.com > > From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 13:38:53 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA21714 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:19:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA21705 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:19:53 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id OAA18712 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:18:56 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199511302118.OAA18712@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Bouncy Bouncy routine To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:18:55 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am getting bounce messages for mail that was *also* delivered, and of > course the recipient doesn't have a clue unless I complain. Is this the > same experience the rest of you have? I have smaller lists, but yes, this problem scales down. I'd say maybe one out of every thirty or so bounces I get is generated by a genuinely invalid address; most of the rest are "wasn't able to deliver for four hours"-style messages or transient "host unknown"s, etc. (The other day I got an "Unable to deliver in 0 seconds" bounce, which I think is taking things a little too far.) At this point I only unsubscribe addresses when I start getting "user unknown"s for that address, and even then I've had people come back a day or two later -- presumably when their mail system stopped screwing up -- and say "what happened?" I'm planning to use procmail to drop the most useless ones on the floor, but haven't done any work on it yet. If/when I do, I'll post about it. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 14:00:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA21936 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:32:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA21931 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA09803 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:33:34 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA20846 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:33:33 -0800 Message-Id: <199511302133.AA20846@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 13:33:32 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Avi wrote: > My list has 1500 and I get about 5-10 bounces a day also. At first I had > the auto-delete function (listserv) on, but I found that too many of the > bounces were not real (just like you). Now I just dump bounces in a folder > and every few days check to see which addresses are habitually bad. Mostly > bounces from "service unavailable" errors are temporary, while "user > unknown" errors are usually true (about 3/4 of the time). > The system works well enough at this point that only about 1 in 20 times > is a valid user removed. I know it's labour-intensive, but good relations > with my subscribers are worth it. When I ran my mailing list manually, without list software, I used to actually keep a set of index cards and record the number of bounces for each address. 20+ bounces in 2 days would get one removed from the regular list, and 4 consecutive digest bounces would get a subscriber removed from the digest. Now that I use Smartlist, I'd never go back to processing bounces manually. Ugh. I even switched ISPs when one removed permission for me to use SmartList -- a move that is involving moving a 25MB web site, complete with cgi scripts, to a site running a different server and different UNIX flavor. But that is much less trouble than having to read bounces. SmartList does exactly the same sort of bounce processing I did. It keeps track of the number of recent bounces from each address. You set a limit and it removes the address when the limit is reached. Just like I was doing manually. It's not perfect, I still have to actually look at about 4% of the bounces. I can live with that. :-) -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Thu Nov 30 17:24:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA00289 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:13:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from colossus.vansys.com (pm036.bby.wis.net [204.191.166.36]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA00237 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from Administrator@localhost) by colossus.vansys.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with UUCP id QAA00159 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 16:58:28 -0800 To: amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) Subject: Re: Information on DOS-based ... From: Rick Vandenberg Message-ID: <2TNeFD1w165w@vansys.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 95 16:42:48 PST In-Reply-To: Organization: Vandenberg Systems Incorporated, Vancouver BC Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk amys@iquest.net (Amy Stinson) writes: > That FAQ has no info on DOS based software. I've *heard* there's one that > runs on Windows NT, but I've not run into it. Sorry for adding my two bits to this so late... We have a product for DOS & NT - Aurora (previously V-MailServer). It's been around for almost 5 years now. Send a message to vminfo@vansys.com for the automated blurb, or mail me directly for more info. -Rick -- Rick Vandenberg, Pres. Internet: Rick@vansys.com Vandenberg Systems Inc. Automated V-MailServer info: vminfo@vansys.com #12 - 3615 West 19th Ave. Internet Applications Group: IAG@vansys.com Vancouver, BC V6S 1C5 Tel: +1-604-228-1181 Fax: +1-604-228-1182