From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 00:24:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id AAA16797 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.eskimo.com (mail.eskimo.com [204.122.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA16792 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from eskimo.com (jimo@eskimo.com [204.122.16.13]) by mail.eskimo.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA17457 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:18:04 -0800 From: Jim Osborn Received: by eskimo.com (8.6.12) id AAA24610; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:18:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:18:03 -0800 Message-Id: <199512010818.AAA24610@eskimo.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk alan@znyx.com asks: >How do you sort true invalid addresses from semi-true addresses >which also deliver? Or should we even care? I use procmail to sort returns into three folders: Known temporary failures go straight to /dev/null: I happen to know some sites are unreliable, but want to stay on board. Quota-exceeded, mailbox full, disk full, etc and anything with "4 hours" or "local config error" in the subject qualify for the trash can. Likely true failures go to a Duds folder, to be unsubscribed: These include unknown users and most anything from aol.com The rest go into a folder for a human to look at. Reviewing this group lets me add to the recipes for the other two. I've found that some sites, at least, don't get the messages that bounce off various host timeout problems. These seem like obvious temporary problems, and I could imagine that the messages are queued for later delivery, but in most cases where I've got solid feedback, the answer is that the messages were missed. I'll work with a determined subscriber to help fix a problem. Sometimes the host has problems, and I can get mail through to them at a more generic domain address. If so, I can send the error logs for them to help their postmaster. I went so far as to call one guy on the phone; it seemed ALL his mail was coming back, including queries to his postmaster. Postmaster unknown? Then he managed to get a post to the list, so I called and the upshot was that he switched ISPs. jimo@eskimo.com From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 00:54:12 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id AAA17601 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:49:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id AAA17596 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:49:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA12849 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:32:10 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id BAA15193 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:25:07 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199512010725.BAA15193@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Found on the net To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 01:25:06 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: chuqui@plaidworks.com (Chuq Von Rospach) > Newsgroups: comp.mail.list-admin.policy > Subject: Warning: RECIPIENT lists are being acquired.... > Date: 29 Nov 1995 21:54:53 GMT > Organization: Cynicism R Us > Message-ID: <49ikrd$t7i@news.zNET.net> > > Sort of an FYI. I noticed an address very carefully trying to grab the > recipients list for all of my user lists today via RECIPIENTS. When I > sent email to ask why they were doing this, I got this response. > > Now, my site has these functions disabled -- I consider my subscription > lists private, if only because I won't make it EASY for someone to grab > them and spam them beyond my control. But to just grab every mailing > list they can find for this purpose, without even bothering to ask > permission FIRST bothers the hell out of me. > > I figured I'd pass along the word here, so that others who don't like > this can lock down their user lists -- and perhaps tell the people > doing this what they think of it. > > By the way, I consider the paragraph... > > > The information will be used in a white pages directory through which > > one can look up individuals by name; this query will -not- result in > > the sending of junk e-mail. > > ...ludicrous. The people CREATING the database may not use it for spam. > i'll guarantee others will..... > > Please feel free to pass this note along to others you feel might be > interested. And think real hard whether or not you want your user lists > open where anyone can borrow a copy without asking first...... > > chuq > ---- > > > > << start of forwarded material >> > > > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:38:34 -0800 > > From: robotinfo1@iaf.net > > Subject: robot1@iaf.net activity explanation > > To: Chuq Von Rospach (by way of > Dwight Merriman ) > > > > Information regarding robot1@iaf.net activity. > > > > robot1@iaf.net is an automated agent that is gathering addresses > > from various sources including publicly-accessible mailing lists. > > > > The information will be used in a white pages directory through which > > one can look up individuals by name; this query will -not- result in > > the sending of junk e-mail. > > > > Mailing lists with the word "private" in the list name or description > > will automatically be excluded from processing. To exclude your site's > > lists from processing, send an email to this address containing the command: > > > > exclude > > > > where is the e-mail address of the list server whose > > groups are to be excluded. > > > > For human assistance, please email dmerriman@iaf.net. > > << end of forwarded material >> > > > -- > --- > Chuq Von Rospach * chuqui@plaidworks.com * chuq@abs.apple.com * Member: SFWA > Apple Computer World Wide Server Solutions Support * > Plaidworks Consulting > Software Gnome and general Internet tweaker > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 09:53:40 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA29534 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from twitch.io.org (twitch.io.org [198.133.36.152]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA29510 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:54:33 -0800 (PST) From: noise@io.org Received: from [199.166.239.224] (herald.net4.io.org [199.166.239.224]) by twitch.io.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09234 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:55:07 -0500 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:55:07 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Wierd bounce message Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got this bounce today: What the what does this mean? >Batch SMTP transaction log follows: > >220 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Columbia MAILER R2.07 BSMTP service ready. >050 HELO PLPUAM11 >250 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Hello PLPUAM11 >050 MAIL FROM: >250- does not correspond to RSCS origin of >PLPUAM11 SMTP >250 . You are a charlatan. >050 RCPT TO: >250 ... recipient OK. >050 DATA >354 Start mail input. End with . >554-Mail not delivered to some or all recipients: >554 No such local user: JACK >050 QUIT >221 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Columbia MAILER BSMTP service done. Thanks *********************************************************** noise noise @io.org *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 10:53:45 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA01282 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA01277 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:22:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id KAA12448; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:21:36 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA04229; Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:34:13 -0800 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 10:34:13 -0800 Message-Id: <9512011834.AA04229@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) Subject: Thank you everybody (was: Bouncy) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I would like to thank everyone for the very helpful insights regarding mail bounces, particularly Keith Moore's analyses. I had thought that we were doing something wrong, or our choplist/sendmail hookup was broken in some way. (We're using Smartlist 3.06 -- no time to upgrade). It makes you wonder how much of Internet bandwidth is wasted on such things. Does anyone know if the IETF is looking into this problem with an upgrade to the mail protocols? -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 12:54:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA05653 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:44:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA05646 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA23611; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:43:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199512012043.PAA23611@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: noise@io.org cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Wierd bounce message In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 1995 11:55:07 EST." Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 15:43:01 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > What the what does this mean? it means that the address JACK@PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL is invalid. The Columbia mailer has the bad habit of accepting RCPT TO to addresses that aren't valid, and then returning an error after the DATA phase. It's not usually a problem unless there are multiple recipients and delivery for some of them temp-failed. But the error message is pretty hard to decipher. Keith >Batch SMTP transaction log follows: > >220 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Columbia MAILER R2.07 BSMTP service ready. >050 HELO PLPUAM11 >250 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Hello PLPUAM11 >050 MAIL FROM: >250- does not correspond to RSCS origin of >PLPUAM11 SMTP >250 . You are a charlatan. >050 RCPT TO: >250 ... recipient OK. >050 DATA >354 Start mail input. End with . >554-Mail not delivered to some or all recipients: >554 No such local user: JACK >050 QUIT >221 PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL Columbia MAILER BSMTP service done. From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 13:24:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA05790 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:50:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA05783 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:50:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id PAA23633; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:50:23 -0500 Message-Id: <199512012050.PAA23633@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Thank you everybody (was: Bouncy) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 01 Dec 1995 10:34:13 PST." <9512011834.AA04229@znyx.com> Date: Fri, 01 Dec 1995 15:50:14 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Does anyone know if the IETF is looking into > this problem with an upgrade to the mail protocols? Yes. The NOTARY RFCs (which have been approved and are just waiting on the RFC editor to publish them) define: + a standard format for delivery status reports (delivery, nondelivery, and "delay" reports) + standard, fairly precise codes for delivery errors + a means to request (via SMTP) which types of delivery status reports should be sent I sent the same analysis to the NOTARY list that I sent here; I'm hoping that as MTA writers update their code to support NOTARY, they will also improve error reporting. The DRUMS working group (DRUMS = Detailed Update/Rewrite of Messaging Standards) is updating RFC 822 and SMTP to clarify, fix things that are broken, and make recommendations about the best ways to do things based on experience. I would like to include some advice about error detection and reporting here also; it's an agenda item for the WG meeting at next week's IETF meeting in Dallas (but limited to 20 min discussion). Both of these should help the situation somewhat. On the other hand, the problems I see aren't so much in the protocols as in the implementations, especially for mail gateways. Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 14:24:14 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA08882 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA08877 for ; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA21605 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:47:16 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA04598 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:41:41 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199512012141.PAA04598@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Michelle, does this give you nightmares? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:41:41 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I told him "no". He wrote back, went, "why not"? *sigh* Forwarded message: > From alweiner@clark.net Fri Dec 1 10:00:53 1995 > Message-Id: <199512011554.KAA26726@mail.Clark.Net> > Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 10:33:07 -0500 > From: Alan Weiner > Organization: GRYPHON Microproducts > X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.2N (Windows; I; 32bit) > To: arielle@taronga.com > Subject: Are you looking for suggestions for improvements to the mailing list site? > > Hiya. I'm the author of a product called W3MAGIC. W3MAGIC > adds things like database access, forms process, and dynamic > form generation to WWW pages. It would be a simple matter to > incorporate your mailing list info into a database that would > dynamically generate the appropriate html pages that could > include the ability to automatically subscribe/unsubscribe to > that list. > > Visit > http://www.clark.net/pub/alweiner/cgi-bin/homepage.cgi?w3magic > > to get a better feel for what I'm talking about. If you'd > like, we can set-up a simple prototype to demonstrate how easy > it would be to do. It would only make sense if it ended-up > making less work for you and provided more capabilities for > that work. I'd be willing to work out a deal so that you can > do it for free (since you make your service available for > free) > From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 19:38:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18358 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:48:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from utkcs2.cs.utk.edu (UTKCS2.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.93.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA21345 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST.cs.utk.edu by utkcs2.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id QAA22611; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 16:01:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199511302101.QAA22611@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:35:35 EST." Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 16:01:56 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > There are a couple types of bounces, the ones I unsubscribe are the ones > that come back 'user unknown'. There are others, that say 'connection timed > out' or 'connection deferred' that seem to indicate a temporary glitch in > the net. This is basically the system saying to you, "The line's busy now, > but I'm going to call back later." > > Why do we need to see these bounces, they make up a good 85-90% of the > bounce messages I get, and they're meaningless to me. Unless the mail is > permenantly not delivered, I don't really care how many times the machine > tries to send it. And regardless of how many of these addresses you clear > out, there's always going to be new ones from some part of the net that's > acting up each time a post is made. The NOTARY standards (soon to appear as RFCs) provide: + a standard format for all delivery status messages that can be parsed and interpreted, + standardized and reasonably precise error codes, + a way to specify that you don't want to see "delay" messages Of course, it will take awhile before these are universally deployed, but the latest sendmail already implements them. Also, I manage to automatically filter out most of the delay messages with MH, using the following lines in my .maildelivery file: Subject "mail warning" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Mail Item Format Warning" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Waiting Mail" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "WARNING: message delayed at" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Warning From uucp" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Returned mail: warning: cannot send message for " destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Undeliverable RFC822 mail: temporarily unable to deliver" destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Warning: could not send message for past " destroy ? /dev/null Subject "Mail not delivered yet, still trying" destroy ? /dev/null Keith From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 19:46:35 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18409 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org (bolis.isp.net [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id WAA14553 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org by outsider.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tLOEV-0006whC; Thu, 30 Nov 95 21:42 PST Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tLPJN-000UpuC; Thu, 30 Nov 95 22:51 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman), list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:39:59 -800 Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 30 Nov 95 at 9:53, Alan Deikman wrote: > guess what? About 50% of the "pruned addresses" resulted in > a subscriber e-mailing back "hey, why was I unsubscribed?" > > In other words, I am getting bounce messages for mail that was > *also* delivered, and of course the recipient doesn't have > a clue unless I complain. Is this the same experience the rest > of you have? How do you sort true invalid addresses from > semi-true addresses which also deliver? Or should we even First, as others have mentioned, not all bounce messages are permanent errors. Things like "message deferred", "service unavailable", or "disk full" are usually transient. Ignore them unless they keep up for an extended period. Usually errors like "user unknown" or "host unknown" are permanent errors that aren't going to go away. Remove them if they keep up. Sometimes they are short-lived and caused by a temporary configuration error that gets fixed later. This is often the cause of "why did you bounce me when I'm getting mail?" Then there is my favorite stinker. Once in a while you'll find an address that keeps on bouncing with a permanent error ("user unknown", etc) but they insist they are getting mail. This type is caused by a misconfigured DNS secondary or lower priority MX host. So most of their mail gets through, but every so often mail is rejected when the primary path doesn't work and a the secondary DNS server or MX host has to be used. I had quite a few go-rounds with one person who had a broken setup like this, who was really mad about me bouncing him. These are the cases where keeping a copy of the bounce is really handy later. - Alan ---- Alan Millar E-Mail: amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator Web: http://metro.turnpike.net/metro/amillar From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 1 19:54:13 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id SAA18103 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA18500 for ; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:31:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id OAA19755; Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199511301931.OAA19755@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: alan@znyx.com (Alan Deikman) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:53:38 PST." <9511301753.AA29687@znyx.com> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:31:35 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Anyway, I finally got around to pruning the list of supposedly > "invalid" e-mail addresses (it's a chore to even FIND the right > address in a bounce message -- but that's another story) and > guess what? About 50% of the "pruned addresses" resulted in > a subscriber e-mailing back "hey, why was I unsubscribed?" > > In other words, I am getting bounce messages for mail that was > *also* delivered, and of course the recipient doesn't have > a clue unless I complain. Is this the same experience the rest > of you have? How do you sort true invalid addresses from > semi-true addresses which also deliver? Or should we even > care? One of the lists I run has about 5000 subscribers but mails out only one large message per week. One week, I took every "permanent" bounce message from that list and saved it in a special folder for later analysis. ("delay" bounce messages of the form "we've so far failed to delivery your message, but will keep trying" were not saved or analyzed.) The sample was taken after I spent several weeks deleting subscriptions for those whose mail bounced, so in general, these errors were "new" for the week. Out of 5067 recipients for that digest, 59 errors were reported. 34 of those appeared to be legitimate errors, meaning that the message delivery failed because the subscriber address was no longer valid or the host was not reachable. 22 of the errors appeared to be due to configuration failures (either of DNS, routing, or mail forwarding), or inability to gracefully handle exceptional conditions ("can't write file"). 3 of the error messages did not contain sufficient information to allow the problem to be analyzed. So 22 out of 59 "permanent" error messages were reporting transient conditions or conditions that could be fixed by proper configuration. The breakdown in error messages was as follows: total legit user unknown (note 1) 16 16 host unknown: DNS configuration error 2 (note 2) BITNET address had gone away 7 (note 3) other 1 TOTAL 10 8 host down/connection timed out 7 7 local configuration error (improper MX handling) 6 0 can't create output / can't write file / i/o error 5 0 too many hops / looping detected 4 0 bad forwarding address 3 0 program not found 2 0 user's mail reception disabled 1 1 message exceeded size limit 1 1 redirect to new domain name 1 1 TOTAL 56 34 errors for which no reason was reported 3 ? 1. all of the "user unknown" errors were considered "legitimate" because I had no reliable way to determine otherwise. However, I regularly get complaints from people whose subscriptions were deleted because of "user unknown" bounces. When I have been able to obtain additional information from postmaters at such sites, the explanation is usually something of the form "the machine was down". In some cases it appears that NIS server failures (i.e. the lack of adequate slave servers) were the culprit. 2. DNS configuration errors were identified by looking at each of the DNS servers for the recipient's domain and comparing the results returned from a query of type ANY for that domain. If the results were inconsistent in a way that would cause mail to be misrouted, or if the results were inconsistent in any way but the serial numbers on the SOA records matched, this was considered a configuration error. 3. The list contains several user@node.BITNET addresses. BITNET hosts are dropping like flies and with no advance notice. From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 2 06:54:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA16008 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest1.iquest.net (iquest1.iquest.net [206.27.192.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA16003 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 06:26:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tLsuk-000BAwC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 09:27 EST Received: from ts00-ind-17.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0tLsts-00032hC; Sat, 2 Dec 95 09:26 EST Message-Id: Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 09:26 EST X-Sender: amys@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Michelle Dick , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Amy Stinson Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:33 PM 11/30/95 -0800, Michelle Dick wrote: Michelle, What I do now is move the bouncer to the Digest when I see a problem as *most* of my host/user unknowns are temporary (unless it's AOL). Is there anyway I can hack enough at Smartlist to do that automatically? Amy > >SmartList does exactly the same sort of bounce processing I did. It >keeps track of the number of recent bounces from each address. You >set a limit and it removes the address when the limit is reached. >Just like I was doing manually. It's not perfect, I still have to >actually look at about 4% of the bounces. I can live with that. :-) > >-- >Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA > Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List > > From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 2 07:54:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA16449 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:28:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA16444 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:28:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA07785 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:29:01 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA22519 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:29:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199512021529.AA22519@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 02 Dec 95 07:29:01 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: > Michelle, > What I do now is move the bouncer to the Digest when I see a problem as > *most* of my host/user unknowns are temporary (unless it's AOL). > Is there anyway I can hack enough at Smartlist to do that automatically? > > Amy The answer is yes, and I'll post an outline of a way to do it on the smartlist mailing list, not here. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 2 07:57:58 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id HAA16408 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:24:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pinch.io.org (pinch.io.org [198.133.36.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id HAA16403 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: noise@io.org Received: from [199.166.239.224] (herald.net4.io.org [199.166.239.224]) by pinch.io.org (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA27210 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:25:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:25:36 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Wierd bounce message Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 3:43 PM 12/1/95, Keith Moore wrote: >> What the what does this mean? > >it means that the address JACK@PLPUAM11.AMU.EDU.PL is invalid. Thanks to all replied to my weird bounced message. Is there some place on the net that has some info on how to decipher these headers? It sure would make dealing with them alot easier. >> >050 MAIL FROM: >> >250- does not correspond to RSCS origin of >> >PLPUAM11 SMTP >it compared the $2 field of the 050 HELO line, "PLPUAM11", with the "io.org" >of the 050 MAIL FROM: line and complained ... but not fatally ... only a >200-class message, not a 500-class fatal error ... Thanks Flashback for the above. I'm actually fairly close to understanding it. Is there a specific line that has the of the error? Maybe I could use some of this info to do some automatic sorting for me in Eudora? Thanks all *********************************************************** noise noise @io.org *********************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 2 08:24:15 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA17710 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA17705 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 08:11:23 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512021611.IAA17705@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3090; Sat, 02 Dec 95 18:11:59 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 8135; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:11:59 +0200 Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 18:08:12 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Wierd bounce message To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:25:36 -0500 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>> >050 MAIL FROM: >>> >250- does not correspond to RSCS origin of >>> >PLPUAM11 SMTP >>it compared the $2 field of the 050 HELO line, "PLPUAM11", with the >>"io.org" of the 050 MAIL FROM: line and complained ... but not fatally No, that's not how it works. It would be long to explain but in a nutshell it's a configuration problem. There's nothing you can do about it other than complaining to the postmaster. Eric From list-managers-owner Sat Dec 2 13:26:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA27713 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:06:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA27708 for ; Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:06:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA27352; Sat, 2 Dec 95 16:07:33 EST Date: Sat, 2 Dec 95 16:07:33 EST From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9512022107.AA27352@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List-Managers-Digest V4 #184 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk noise wrote: >Thanks to all replied to my weird bounced message. > >Is there some place on the net that has some info on how to decipher these >headers? It sure would make dealing with them alot easier. I'm interested in mail stuff, too - especially Unix sendmail. Does anyone know of a mailing list for it? Cathy Eades, Systems Manager e-mail: cathy@pet.bgsm.edu PET Center, Div. Rad. Sciences phone: (910)716-5628 Bowman Gray School of Medicine FAX: (910)716-5639 Winston-Salem, NC 27157 From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 3 12:28:23 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25838 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:20:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA25826 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:19:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA22815; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:18:20 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine Date: 3 Dec 1995 15:18:20 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 14 Distribution: local Message-ID: <49t0mc$m8s@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199511302118.OAA18712@kitsune.swcp.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lazlo Nibble writes: >I have smaller lists, but yes, this problem scales down. I'd say maybe >one out of every thirty or so bounces I get is generated by a genuinely >invalid address; most of the rest are "wasn't able to deliver for four >hours"-style messages . . . Sendmail 8.7.1 now includes a facility to set different timers for notification on `Precedence: bulk' mail. A brilliant notion, IMHO. -- Yea, the heavens shall open and the NP-complete solution given forth. ATT executives shall give birth to two-headed operating systems, and copyrights shall be expunged. The voice of the GNU shall be heard, but the faithless will be without transcievers. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 3 12:44:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA25653 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:17:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA25643 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA22759; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:15:58 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Bouncing address detection scripts Date: 3 Dec 1995 15:15:58 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 32 Message-ID: <49t0hu$m74@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This thread and a recent note from someone with the same problems reminded me of the way I used to debug the semislug (local sun users group) list. About once a year rather than sending the normal meeting announcement, I'd do: #!/bin/sh exec < ~/.maillists/semislug.members while read ADDR NAME do mail -s 'Monthly SEMiSLUG Meeting Announcement' $ADDR < announcement done This generates a message exactly like what the users expected, but each send has a unique To: field and Message-ID: field. Now you know exactly which list entry caused the bounce. If, God forbid, some brain-dead relayer generated a new msg-id and To: line, you can modify the script to #!/bin/sh exec < ~/.maillists/semislug.members while read ADDR NAME do mail -s 'Monthly SEMiSLUG Meeting Announcement for $NAME' $ADDR < announcement done but then you wind up having to explain why everyone's name shows up in the subject line. -- Yea, the heavens shall open and the NP-complete solution given forth. ATT executives shall give birth to two-headed operating systems, and copyrights shall be expunged. The voice of the GNU shall be heard, but the faithless will be without transcievers. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 3 12:54:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA26244 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (dexter-gw.dexter.msen.com [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA26239 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.6.12/8.6.5) id PAA22936; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:23:35 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: Bouncy Bouncy routine Date: 3 Dec 1995 15:23:35 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 14 Message-ID: <49t107$mcl@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199511302118.OAA18712@kitsune.swcp.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Lazlo Nibble writes: >I have smaller lists, but yes, this problem scales down. I'd say maybe >one out of every thirty or so bounces I get is generated by a genuinely >invalid address; most of the rest are "wasn't able to deliver for four >hours"-style messages . . . Sendmail 8.7.1 now includes a facility to set different timers for notification on `Precedence: bulk' mail. A brilliant notion, IMHO. -- Yea, the heavens shall open and the NP-complete solution given forth. ATT executives shall give birth to two-headed operating systems, and copyrights shall be expunged. The voice of the GNU shall be heard, but the faithless will be without transcievers. From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 3 14:24:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA29256 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:05:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from acuone.acu.edu.au (acuone.acu.EDU.AU [192.148.223.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA29251 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:05:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from thanh_PC (thanh_PC.christ.acu.EDU.AU [203.10.44.87]) by acuone.acu.edu.au (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA21980 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:10:05 +1100 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:10:05 +1100 Message-Id: <199512032210.JAA21980@acuone.acu.edu.au> X-Sender: thanh@acuone.acu.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Thanh H. Huynh" Subject: listusers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list users ________________________________________________________ Thanh H. Huynh Australian Catholic University - Christ Campus PO Box 213, Oakleigh 3166, Australia. Phone : +61 3 9563 3711 Fax : +61 3 9563 3605 EMail : T.Huynh@acu.edu.au ________________________________________________________ From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 3 14:31:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA29287 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA29282 for ; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 14:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id XAA17108; Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:08:39 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA22060; Sun, 3 Dec 95 23:08:38 +0100 Date: Sun, 3 Dec 95 23:08:38 +0100 Message-Id: <9512032208.AA22060@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> From: Per Starback To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Digests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I don't have a specific question but am eager to get some general input from people who have experienced the same as I have when administrating their lists. It's about multipart'ed Digests which subscribers don't know how to handle. I have recently started using one of the common mailing list software packages for my mailing list. Earlier I did it by hand, except I had a home-grown script to create and send out digests. (The list is available in two forms: digested or not digested.) My home-grown script ignored RFC 1153 and just put the messages together, keeping the headers I thought people would be interested in, and divided in a way I thought was visually clear. Now the digests are "standard" digests not only following RFC 1153 but also MIMEd with "Content-Type: multipart/digest" etc. The most visible change for many of my subscribers is that now their mail programs know that the digests consist of several messages and thus behave in ways they don't expect. One complains that he gets "empty digests" followed by the individual messages. Another that he must press space and return to go to the next message and there's no way to get back up in the digest except by starting from the top of it again. I don't know what mail programs they use and what features they have, but it seems probable to me that there are ways to do what they want and that it's possible to turn off automatic undigesting of digests. Anyway it seems like everyone who has commented on the new digests on the list wants the old just-one-big-message behaviour back. But I'm reluctant, as I think it must be inherently good that the mail programs get a chance to know where the individual messages start and end and wish the subscribers would read the documentation for their mail software to find out how to make it behave like they want to instead. (Most of my subscribers are not very computer literate.) What are your experience with this? Is it really an advantage with properly constructed digests, or do too many people out there only get problems with them that they can't cope with? -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 4 01:24:16 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id BAA16097 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:10:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id BAA16092 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:09:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA24250 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:10:52 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA13114 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Mon, 4 Dec 1995 01:10:52 -0800 Message-Id: <199512040910.AA13114@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Digests In-Reply-To: <9512032208.AA22060@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 95 01:10:52 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Per wrote: > > Now the digests are "standard" digests not only following RFC 1153 > but also MIMEd with "Content-Type: multipart/digest" etc. > ... > (Most of my subscribers are not very computer literate.) > > What are your experience with this? Is it really an advantage with > properly constructed digests, or do too many people out there only get > problems with them that they can't cope with? There are two formatting issues here and only one of them is causing a problem for your subscribers. Standard digest formating and MIME. MIME formating (not required in any RFC) is the sole cause of your subscribers' problems. Yes, it is their mailer's fault, yes they can probably change their mailers to be more friendly with text-only digests, but, as you say they are "not very computer literate". I had MIME digests. Once. For a very short time. The hue and cry was tremendous. My membership is also not computer savvy as a whole. But, do keep the other digest standards -- that lets people use undigesters on their end if they wish. And the truely computer savvy people can use procmail and insert the little "Content-xxx" mime headers if they really want mime digests. Others on this list have suggested having two lists, one mime, one not. Since the only thing mimeish I add to my digest is the little headers at the top of the message, I see no reason to have two in my case. Let the computer savvy subscriber add it -- my digest formatting is otherwise mime-friendly. -- Michelle Dick artemis@rahul.net East Palo Alto, CA Owner, FATFREE Vegetarian Mailing List From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 4 12:54:17 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA07189 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA07177 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:52:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id VAA03264; Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:53:43 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA11675; Mon, 4 Dec 95 21:53:42 +0100 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 95 21:53:42 +0100 Message-Id: <9512042053.AA11675@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> From: Per Starback To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199512040910.AA13114@bolero.rahul.net> (message from Michelle Dick on Mon, 04 Dec 95 01:10:52 -0800) Subject: Re: Digests Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Michelle: Thanks! I really suspected that people had mailers that knew about digests and automatically did things with the messages just because they were digests, but now I realize that you are right in that the problem was just that the digests were MIMEd. -- " Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 5 14:54:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA29293 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cornell.edu (cornell.edu [132.236.56.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA29288 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:30:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from keagan.cit.cornell.edu (KEAGAN.CIT.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.69.186]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA28999 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:31:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199512052231.RAA28999@cornell.edu> From: Sue Utter Honig To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: publicizing lists Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 17:38:56 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I'd appreciate hearing of ways to publicize a list, i.e., how to register it on various internet "lists of lists". Thanks. Sue Honig suh1@cornell.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 5 15:24:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id PAA01570 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id PAA01565 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:23:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from DialupEudora (panix.com [198.7.0.2]) by panix3.panix.com (8.7/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id SAA13622 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:24:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: gbs@panix2.panix.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:25:18 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: gbs@panix.com (Eric Harris-Braun) Subject: Re: publicizing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I'd appreciate hearing of ways to publicize a list, i.e., how to >register it on various internet "lists of lists". Thanks. Send your info to the New-Lists mailing list (but read their posting instructions first) send "subscribe new list " to listserv@vm1.nodak.edu for more info. If you would like it to appear in _The Internet Directory v2.0_ (disclaimer, it's my book), you can check out the form at: http://www.randomhouse.com/id/ -Eric ______________________________________________________________________ Eric Harris-Braun gbs@panix.com The Internet Directory http://www.randomhouse.com/id/ From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 5 16:24:18 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA03643 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from wariat.wariat.org (wariat.wariat.org [192.147.147.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id QAA03638 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [205.133.233.52] (dial17.apk.net [205.133.233.48]) by wariat.wariat.org (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id TAA14821 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:06:28 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 19:06:28 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mkidd@apk.net (Monee C. Kidd) Subject: Re: publicizing lists Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sue Utter Honig said this about that: >Hi, > >I'd appreciate hearing of ways to publicize a list, i.e., how to >register it on various internet "lists of lists". Thanks. > >Sue Honig >suh1@cornell.edu The NEW-LIST list is one great way. Make sure you're ready for a flood of new subscribers before you advertise your list on it tho. It is cross posted to the net-happenings list, and from the combined exposure, my list got about 1200 new subscribers in about 5 days:) Send a 'subscribe new-list' message to LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu to get on the list. Here's some of the info post from the list that you'll get when you subscribe: NEW-LIST Information 09/01/94 NEW-LIST is a moderated distribution list which may be used to announce the establishment of new e-mail mailing lists. Many of the people who maintain "lists of lists" subscribe to the NEW-LIST list as do direct users of the information. Types of Announcements We will accept items sent to new-list@vm1.nodak.edu or on BITNET to NEW-LIST@NDSUVM1 as long as they follow these guidelines. While we do not generally censor the items due to the topic matter of the list, we might not post something if we don't feel it is complete, if it might cause confusion, or if it doesn't fit the charter of the list. The NEW-LIST list exists primarily for initial announcements of new e-mail lists. The format for announcements is contained in the file NEW-LIST FORMAT available from LISTSERV@vm1.nodak.edu (see below). New and changed list announcements must come from a list owner, moderator, or list server administrator. PLEASE read the NEW-LIST FORMAT document before contributing! [snip] -- We humans are a curious sort... | Monee C. Kidd Little girls like dolls and little boys like soldiers. | When we grow up, women like soldiers and men like dolls. | mkidd@apk.net From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 6 04:24:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id EAA28161 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:19:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from c2smtp.ipmg.co.uk (c2smtp.ipmg.co.uk [194.128.159.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id EAA28154 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 04:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from Connect2 Message Router by c2smtp.ipmg.co.uk via Connect2-SMTP 4.00; Wed, 6 Dec 95 12:23:17 +0000 Message-ID: <98BDC23001D01400@c2smtp.ipmg.co.uk> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 95 12:22:00 -0300 From: Edmund Ward Organization: IPMG Ltd To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Setting up a site X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. I'm new to using list managers so please be forgiving :-) This is a request for advice on setting up a service for customers of my company, NEWSdesk. This mailing is split into the following sections: Who Are NEWSdesk? Background Can you help? Who Are NEWSdesk? ----------------- We are a service for journalists, analysts and consultants worldwide to download industry related news for free. Primarily this is done via Web pages maintained by us and sponsored by major industry players. The aim is to supply these people (journalists, etc.) with a service that makes the job of finding relevant infomation quickly and as it breaks by searching one site. News is split by date of release, company, and theme. Many languages are supported. Background ---------- We currently send an e-mail once a week to our accredited journalists with headlines of all the releases that have appeared in the last week. If any are of interest to them, they have to access our relevant Web page to download each text file for each press release they want. This takes a bit of time and is fiddly. What they would like, and therefore what we would like to supply, is an automatic service using e-mail. Using this they could choose from our weekly list of latest releases those of interest and e-mail to us the names of them together with a command that causes our system to e-mail the relevent files to them automatically. Meanwhile, we would like to keep track, in a simple way, of who has requested what information. Can you help? ------------- Firstly, is this possible? From what I have read, I think it is. Can I get the functionality I require from a MLM or do I need an archive server? Any recommendations for such applications? Thank you for your attention. I can be contacted directly at: eward@ipmg.co.uk *********end of message*************** From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 06:54:27 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA24631 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA24624 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:27:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by fsm-1.pica.army.mil id aa20364; 6 Dec 95 21:22 EST Received: from cor6.pica.army.mil by fsm-1.pica.army.mil id aa20360; 6 Dec 95 21:20 EST Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by COR6.PICA.ARMY.MIL id aa25456; 6 Dec 95 21:17 EST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA24206 for info-labview@pica.army.mil; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:17:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:17:59 -0500 From: Nanyang1@aol.com Message-ID: <951206211704_127025919@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: info-labview@pica.army.mil Subject: information Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear Sir/Madam, I am helping plan a software developers' conference. Right now we are at the stage of gathering mailing lists. I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide some basic information on your service regarding the following categories: 1. Who owns/manages the mailing list? 2. Are broadcast messages permitted to its subscribers (informational in nature)? 3. If so, how can we arrange to send a message to the subscribers? 4. Can you describe the subscribers: a) Commercial Developers _____ % b) In-house Developers _____% c) Systems Integrators ____% d) VARs--Value Added Retailers _____% e). Consultants ______% f). Content ______% g). Product Managers ______% h). Others _______(name)% 5. Do you know what development platforms or environments that subscribers use/develop in: a) UNIX _____% b) Windows ____% c) Windows 95 ____% d) MacOS ______% e) OS/2 _____ % f) NewtonOS _______% g) Magic Cap ______% h) Other ___________(name)% 6. Do your subscribers develop/using a) Multimedia applications _______% b) Client/Server applications ________% 7. How large is the subscriber list? 8. Is there a cost to broadcast messages? If so, how much is it and who needs to be contacted? Your prompt reply will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Mei Engelmann nanyang1@aol.com From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 07:25:52 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id GAA24608 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id GAA24603 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:26:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 9:29:38 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: [Nanyang1: information] Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9512070929.aa25513@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Anyone else gotten one of these gems? (I got two, one per list - first time I've been asked if I can be spammed) :-{ Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html ----- Forwarded message # 1: Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL by fsm-1.pica.army.mil id aa20364; 6 Dec 95 21:22 EST Received: from cor6.pica.army.mil by fsm-1.pica.army.mil id aa20360; 6 Dec 95 21:20 EST Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by COR6.PICA.ARMY.MIL id aa25456; 6 Dec 95 21:17 EST Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA24206 for info-labview@pica.army.mil; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:17:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:17:59 -0500 From: Nanyang1@aol.com Message-ID: <951206211704_127025919@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: info-labview@PICA.ARMY.MIL Subject: information Dear Sir/Madam, I am helping plan a software developers' conference. Right now we are at the stage of gathering mailing lists. I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide some basic information on your service regarding the following categories: 1. Who owns/manages the mailing list? 2. Are broadcast messages permitted to its subscribers (informational in nature)? 3. If so, how can we arrange to send a message to the subscribers? 4. Can you describe the subscribers: a) Commercial Developers _____ % b) In-house Developers _____% c) Systems Integrators ____% d) VARs--Value Added Retailers _____% e). Consultants ______% f). Content ______% g). Product Managers ______% h). Others _______(name)% 5. Do you know what development platforms or environments that subscribers use/develop in: a) UNIX _____% b) Windows ____% c) Windows 95 ____% d) MacOS ______% e) OS/2 _____ % f) NewtonOS _______% g) Magic Cap ______% h) Other ___________(name)% 6. Do your subscribers develop/using a) Multimedia applications _______% b) Client/Server applications ________% 7. How large is the subscriber list? 8. Is there a cost to broadcast messages? If so, how much is it and who needs to be contacted? Your prompt reply will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Mei Engelmann nanyang1@aol.com ----- End of forwarded messages From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 08:24:28 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA28092 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from phoenix.net (phoenix.phoenix.net [199.3.232.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA28087 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiralnet.phoenix.net ([199.3.234.29]) by phoenix.net (8.6.10/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA01195 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:09:11 -0600 Message-Id: <199512071609.KAA01195@phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:09:57 -0600 Subject: Re: [Nanyang1: information] Reply-to: klong@phoenix.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yes, all three of my lists were hit by the "polite" spammer. On 7 Dec 95 at 9:29, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer wrote: > Anyone else gotten one of these gems? (I got two, one per list - first time > I've been asked if I can be spammed) :-{ > > Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer > > http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html > > ----- Forwarded message # 1: [...] Namaste' Kimberly Long klong@phoenix.net What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset. ~Crowfoot 1821-1890 )O( From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 09:38:46 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA00600 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from haven.uchicago.edu (haven.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA00592 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:01:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (root@woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by haven.uchicago.edu (8.6.12/8.6.4) with ESMTP id KAA14565 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:56:18 -0600 Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (csdayton@localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) with ESMTP id LAA21573 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:01:42 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199512071701.LAA21573@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu Subject: Robert Kapela: mailing lists Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 11:01:41 CST From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got this spam. I thought that I would mention it. Soren Dayton But I am glad that he said it with MIME! ----- From rkapela@nwrain.net Wed Dec 6 18:06:52 1995 Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net (tacoma.nwrain.net [204.71.149.1]) by midway.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id SAA29271 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:06:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from p16.y0.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0tNTyf-000oNnC; Wed, 6 Dec 95 16:14 PST Received: by p16.y0.nwrain.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BAC3F5.15F520A0@p16.y0.nwrain.net>; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAC3F5.15F520A0@p16.y0.nwrain.net> From: Robert Kapela To: "'csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu'" Subject: mailing lists Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:03:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BAC3F5.15F520A0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAC3F5.15F520A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable **THIS IS NOT A SPAM** Dear Soren,=20 I noticed that you already own and administer your own mailing list... ...You are one of the lucky ones. Many potential list owners are = finding it difficult to find someone that will host and administer their = mailing list for them at a reasonable price... ...I have recognized this need and have started a company call = SPENCER-DAVIS GROUP which is dedicated to hosting and administering = mailing lists at reasonable prices... ... If you know anyone who is interested in starting their own mailing = list please refer them to my web page, or better yet, if you sign them = up for my service I will give you $50.00 for every mailing list that you = sign up!! Remember to check out my home page for more information: = http://www.spencer-davis.com. Thank you for your time and consideration :) _______________________________ SPENCER-DAVIS GROUP "Mailing List Hosting & Administration Services" Robert Kapela =09 Kapelar@isomedia.com http://www.spencer-davis.com=20 Phone:206-861-1920 Fax: 800-551-3052 _______________________________ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAC3F5.15F520A0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+Ih4AAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AEgBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFcAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABjc2RheXRvbkBtaWR3YXkudWNoaWNhZ28uZWR1AFNNVFAAY3NkYXl0b25AbWlkd2F5 LnVjaGljYWdvLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAB0AAABjc2RheXRvbkBt aWR3YXkudWNoaWNhZ28uZWR1AAAAAAMAFQwBAAAAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEwAQAAAB8AAAAnY3NkYXl0 b25AbWlkd2F5LnVjaGljYWdvLmVkdScAAAIBCzABAAAAIgAAAFNNVFA6Q1NEQVlUT05ATUlEV0FZ LlVDSElDQUdPLkVEVQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADMkQBCIAHABgA AABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEADgAAAG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdHMAMAUBBYAD AA4AAADLBwwABgAQAAMAJQADAB8BASCAAwAOAAAAywcMAAYAEAACABcAAwAQAQEJgAEAIQAAADI5 RjNDNTAxRTUyRkNGMTFBOEM5NDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAPEGAQOQBgD8BAAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAm AAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIAmHXU3xLoBHgBwAAEAAAAOAAAAbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 cwAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG6xDd1HQHF8yov5RHPqMlERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAA AAAAHgAfDAEAAAATAAAAcmthcGVsYUBud3JhaW4ubmV0AAADAAYQJFzepQMABxAkAwAAHgAIEAEA AABlAAAAKipUSElTSVNOT1RBU1BBTSoqREVBUlNPUkVOLElOT1RJQ0VEVEhBVFlPVUFMUkVBRFlP V05BTkRBRE1JTklTVEVSWU9VUk9XTk1BSUxJTkdMSVNUWU9VQVJFT05FT0ZUSEVMVQAAAAACAQkQ AQAAAI8DAACLAwAAFQYAAExaRnX38upp/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbD AoMyA8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzO3AuQHEwKDNBLMFMV9CoCLCM8J2TsXnzI1NQKABwqBDbELYG5n MTAzrxRQCwoVYgwBYwBAIBx/gx2PHnwqKlRISQXwMR/BTk9UFLAGAFBBTk0fgAqFIOxEZQrBUwsF sAnwLCFNSSBub8h0aWMJgCB0EYAFQBp5CGAgB0AXoGFkeXggb3cDoABwJFAlQG3/C4AEABPQBcAk wQXAJYIAwLMDEAuAZyAncBPALigAuyDsKAFZJNIXoCVwbimhzmYkYSmgCkBjayVhKdDccy4F0ABw JWBwJAAJ8H8kEAdAJ7MlcgSQBCApgmb1C4BkJ4JpBUAtUA3QJCAkdWwFQHRvLRMgc10DcGUpwiRz A/BsAyBo7m8sQSXNKjFpBcAnSi0Q2wWxKjFtJPAwQSAlIS7w+m4BoGwpoBNQJCEoDzRhuyPQEYB2 KaAXoAWgZwMA/nokQwQAI+AJ4CXhJdE1w68TwArAE9Al4SAFoG0KsB0rUWMHQAMgIIBFTkNARVIt REFWH8FH8FJPVVAvsDbQEXAtkP8EIA2wLVA5EDgyLnEwEieC/yXMJ4InSizBBUAzbisANH/vP8Af 4CoQJMJrI/AH4CtB/ynCOqAugDbhC4AmcQeQODL/C4A35CeCMVQnDitwM+AzgF018mYxJDLwLnFt JWB3xGViK3BhZ2Ui0AWx/mIRwCZzEcAi0AaQJLMAkHM2UDK0dXAyc0bhEbByznYkISPBL8NnaTXh JMJAJDUwLjAwMnNlfTXgciVgMbskd0kTSbAh+iEg7FIT4BPgR+AxMS6A6xFwBZBrJXB1BUBG4TAQ /weAR0NJ1CKRQqEygQDAJBANAiA6MAACQHA6Ly9id1OwLnNwCfAkMHJsLWQ10AQALjiRP+1U/RGA blCwJMIygiazJBBRYR8lwgWgAIEEgVLTIDop/SDsX1mfWnsKhTlvOnAKhVYiKzAnZEwsMkg8FSaf FLAmFVglBmFKgnMiT0bmb1ABBUBLYVQAC2AMgs8DMGHnCoVhdHJABAAvAX0tUGFUwgqFU09UWSFG UAswECnQOgHQNi04NjAxLTE5AdAKhUZhanhTIDhMEC0Z4GfgM/gwNTJZL2rPaxIbXRNQXSuRYwVA CoUWwQBuQAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAfAAAAQAAHMIAYV0k3xLoBQAAIMIAYV0k3xLoBHgA9AAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAL1z ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAC3F5.15F520A0-- From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 12:54:29 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA11130 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:10:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net (tacoma.nwrain.net [204.71.149.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA11125 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:09:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from p8.y0.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0tNmlx-000oO3C; Thu, 7 Dec 95 12:18 PST Received: by p8.y0.nwrain.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BAC49D.230EEC00@p8.y0.nwrain.net>; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:11:28 -0800 Message-ID: <01BAC49D.230EEC00@p8.y0.nwrain.net> From: Robert Kapela To: "'list-managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Subject: Robert Kapela: mailing lists Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:11:24 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ---------- From: Robert Kapela[SMTP:rkapela@nwrain.net] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 1995 12:02 PM To: 'csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu' Cc: =09 Subject: RE: Robert Kapela: mailing lists Importance: High Dear Soren, This was not a spam. I have only sent this message to some people who = are active list owners/administers and might benefit and be interested = in my offer. Again this message is NOT being broadcast to every one. =20 In fact, it was suggested to me that this would be an appropriate method = to contact people, rather than posting the message to the mailing list = itself. =20 I apologize if this was offense to you. If you have anys suggestions as = to how to better contact selected people please let me know. :-) P.S. Please note that I was not asking you to switch your list to my = service, rather asking if you would let others know that a service = exists for them. Robert Kapela ---------- From: Soren Dayton[SMTP:csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 07, 1995 9:01 AM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Robert Kapela: mailing lists I got this spam. I thought that I would mention it. =20 Soren Dayton But I am glad that he said it with MIME! ----- **THIS IS NOT A SPAM** Dear Soren,=3D20 I noticed that you already own and administer your own mailing list... ...You are one of the lucky ones. Many potential list owners are =3D finding it difficult to find someone that will host and administer their = =3D mailing list for them at a reasonable price... ...I have recognized this need and have started a company call =3D SPENCER-DAVIS GROUP which is dedicated to hosting and administering =3D mailing lists at reasonable prices... ... If you know anyone who is interested in starting their own mailing = =3D list please refer them to my web page, or better yet, if you sign them = =3D up for my service I will give you $50.00 for every mailing list that you = =3D sign up!! Remember to check out my home page for more information: =3D http://www.spencer-davis.com. Thank you for your time and consideration :) _______________________________ SPENCER-DAVIS GROUP "Mailing List Hosting & Administration Services" Robert Kapela =3D09 Kapelar@isomedia.com http://www.spencer-davis.com=3D20 Phone:206-861-1920 Fax: 800-551-3052 _______________________________ From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 13:49:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA14669 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (searn.sunet.se [192.36.125.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA14657 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512072117.NAA14657@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE by SEARN.SUNET.SE (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4745; Thu, 07 Dec 95 23:17:49 +0200 Received: from SEARN.SUNET.SE (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by SEARN.SUNET.SE (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 2734; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:17:48 +0200 Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:03:23 +0200 From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: Robert Kapela: mailing lists To: "list-managers@GreatCircle.COM" In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:11:24 -0800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:11:24 -0800 Robert Kapela said: >...I have recognized this need and have started a company call >SPENCER-DAVIS GROUP which is dedicated to hosting and administering >mailing lists at reasonable prices... > >... If you know anyone who is interested in starting their own mailing >list please refer them to my web page, or better yet, if you sign them >up for my service I will give you $50.00 for every mailing list that you >sign up!! Which $50.00, I assume, are generated out of thin air and positively NOT paid indirectly by the friend I am signing up with you? :-) Any relationship between these $50.00 and the $50.00 setup charge being totally fortuitous and coincidental? :-) Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass. I'd like to keep the friends I have :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 14:24:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA17893 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:16:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA17880 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from godiva.pet.wfu.edu by ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA13032; Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:18:30 EST Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 17:18:30 EST From: cathy@ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu (Cathy Eades) Message-Id: <9512072218.AA13032@ncbapsun2.pet.wfu.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: comp.mail.sendmail Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks to folks that suggested this newsgroup that discusses Unix sendmail. -cathy cathy@pet.bgsm.edu From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 7 22:24:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA10682 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:54:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU (UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU [129.7.1.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA10665 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA23764 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:58:07 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id VAA03936; Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:57:12 -0600 From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Message-Id: <199512080357.VAA03936@bonkers.taronga.com> Subject: Re: Robert Kapela: mailing lists To: rkapela@nwrain.net (Robert Kapela) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:57:11 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <01BAC49D.230EEC00@p8.y0.nwrain.net> from "Robert Kapela" at Dec 7, 95 12:11:24 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Robert Kapela: > In fact, it was suggested to me that this would be an appropriate method = > to contact people, rather than posting the message to the mailing list = > itself. I take it you're now aware you were given bad advice? From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 10 20:24:25 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id UAA11762 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:00:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA11755 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:00:30 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id WAA10355; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 22:55:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 22:55:31 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: List Managers Mailing List Subject: Mail Headers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Are there any standard mail headers to add to a message to make a piece of mail a low-priority (bulk) for when bring transmitted? and ... Is there a standard mail header to make a message be automatically deleted after 30 days or so (this would be helpful for the admin's on the rcv'ing end of the mailing list to help on the disk space part). I've already tried the RFC's and UseNet, but have had no luck. Thanks! $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO of GSP Services, Inc. CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 10 20:54:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id UAA13739 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (apple1.iamerica.net [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA13734 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:51:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA20058; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 22:54:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199512110454.WAA20058@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Mail Headers? To: gsp@village.ios.com (Daniel Pfarrer) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 22:54:04 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Pfarrer" at Dec 10, 95 10:55:31 pm From: meo@wildride.schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@wildride.schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.netads.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Daniel Pfarrer said... | |Are there any standard mail headers to add to a message to make a piece |of mail a low-priority (bulk) for when bring transmitted? As the list-owners messages themselves say... Precedence: bulk -Miles From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 10 21:24:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA14401 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 21:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from wilma.cs.utk.edu (WILMA.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.141]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA14396 for ; Sun, 10 Dec 1995 21:05:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST by wilma.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id AAA10406; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:06:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199512110506.AAA10406@wilma.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: Daniel Pfarrer cc: List Managers Mailing List , moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Mail Headers? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 Dec 1995 22:55:31 EST." Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 00:06:14 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Are there any standard mail headers to add to a message to make a piece > of mail a low-priority (bulk) for when bring transmitted? No. Some mailers recognize "Precedence: bulk" or "Precedence: junk" or "Precedence: list", but (a) these are nonstandard, (b) some gateways will bounce messages with an unknown Precedence header, and (c) some list expanders will refuse to forward messages with certain Precedence header values. The advantage of adding Precedence is dubious at best. (It's difficult enough to keep consistent interpretation of standard headers across implementations, much less nonstandard ones.) > Is there a standard mail header to make a message be automatically > deleted after 30 days or so (this would be helpful for the admin's on the > rcv'ing end of the mailing list to help on the disk space part). Not really. RFC 1036 defines Expires: and RFC 1327 defines Expiry-Date:. The former is intended only for use by NetNews and the latter is intended only for tunneling X.400 messages. Few Internet mail systems support auto-expiration of messages that are already delivered, so including one of these header fields in your outgoing mail will have negligable effect. FWIW, there's a move to deprecate 'Expiry-date' in favor of 'Expires' for consistency between Usenet and X.400-tunneling. Keith From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 11 14:52:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id OAA10693 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:34:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id OAA10658 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA02668; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:27:15 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:27:13 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: Sean OKelly , "Miles O'Neal" , Keith Moore cc: List Managers Mailing List Subject: Re: Mail Headers? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Thanks so much for your help! $**************************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO of GSP Services, Inc. CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com * $**************************************************************************$ From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 11 16:52:04 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA16945 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA16939 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from .access.digex.net (dyn000216.belt.digex.net [206.181.16.216]) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA08449 ; for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:21:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:21:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199512120021.TAA08449@access5.digex.net> X-Sender: jjflash@access.digex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: jjflash Subject: "Phantom" Subscribers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a list (Majordomo) that has been subjected lately to a problem of "phantom" subscribers/posters. Up until about a week ago, anyone could *sub* and post or just post. We recently had a person (likely already a member) post (s/he may have *subbed* first) using a newly created AOL screen-name for the sole purpose of flaming a few of our regular members. As soon as that person posted their nasties, they deleted the AOL screen-name (and, if they were subbed, they probably un-subbed). As I have a full-time job I cannot be constantly monitoring the membership list, especially since we have over 200 members. This person has done this at least 3 or 4 times, each time using a different AOL screen-name. I have changed the list to a closed-list, only allowing posts from members. The posts from this person have resulted in a prolonged flame war with some casualties (un-subs) along the way. The nature of the list is to give emotional support to members. Therefore, this problem has caused some significant harm to some of our members. I recently implemented a policy of manually subbing new members, requiring some basic information including name, phone number, etc. Some of the members (either brand new ones or those who are changing ISP's) object to my requiring this information as an invasion of their privacy. Naturally, this is causing new problems for our list. I suppose that I could out-of-hand reject subscriptions from AOL'ers, but that would not be a fair thing to do. Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Thanks, Jack ********************* Jack Schnapper jjflash@pobox.com ********************* From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 11 19:22:06 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id TAA24718 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:07:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ix4.ix.netcom.com (ix4.ix.netcom.com [199.182.120.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id TAA24708 for ; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:07:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from by ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id TAA06788; Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:06:19 -0800 Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:06:19 -0800 Message-Id: <199512120306.TAA06788@ix4.ix.netcom.com> From: alancz@ix.netcom.com (Alan Czarnek) Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You wrote: > >least 3 or 4 times, each time using a different AOL screen-name. I have >changed the list to a closed-list, only allowing posts from members. > >The posts from this person have resulted in a prolonged flame war with some >casualties (un-subs) along the way. The nature of the list is to give >emotional support to members. Therefore, this problem has caused some >significant harm to some of our members. I recently implemented a policy of >manually subbing new members, requiring some basic information including >name, phone number, etc. Some of the members (either brand new ones or >those who are changing ISP's) object to my requiring this information as an >invasion of their privacy. Naturally, this is causing new problems for our >list. > >Thanks, >Jack ------------------ Hi Jack, I am also involved with running a mutual support list. We have seven volunteers on a screening committee who are assigned to do individual email interviews with potential members before the new person is allowed to join the list. Also the new member has to submit a 100 word personal biography to the list. The list is absolutely closed to anyone who is not willing to do this. Period. On the other hand we do not require name/address/phone. Only the seven screening members have the code word needed to add a new member. No one can subscribe themselves and all non-member posts are rejected. This has worked pretty well for us, and with the subscription screening spread among seven people, it is not an undue burden. (It would be very hard for one person to handle it all, though.) Hope this gives you some useful ideas, Alan Czarnek From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 12 05:52:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id FAA18611 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:32:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp5.netcom.com [163.179.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id FAA18606 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:32:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id FAA01251; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 05:23:40 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tPUDH-000gm1C; Tue, 12 Dec 95 04:53 PST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers To: jjflash@pobox.com (jjflash) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 04:53:43 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199512120021.TAA08449@access5.digex.net> from "jjflash" at Dec 11, 95 07:21:54 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk According to unnamed sources, jjflash is alleged to have written: => I have a list (Majordomo) that has been subjected lately to a problem of => "phantom" subscribers/posters. Up until about a week ago, anyone could => *sub* and post or just post. We recently had a person (likely already a => member) post (s/he may have *subbed* first) using a newly created AOL => screen-name for the sole purpose of flaming a few of our regular members. => As soon as that person posted their nasties, they deleted the AOL => screen-name (and, if they were subbed, they probably un-subbed). As I have => a full-time job I cannot be constantly monitoring the membership list, => especially since we have over 200 members. This person has done this at => least 3 or 4 times, each time using a different AOL screen-name. I have => changed the list to a closed-list, only allowing posts from members. => => The posts from this person have resulted in a prolonged flame war with some => casualties (un-subs) along the way. The nature of the list is to give => emotional support to members. Therefore, this problem has caused some => significant harm to some of our members. I recently implemented a policy of => manually subbing new members, requiring some basic information including => name, phone number, etc. Some of the members (either brand new ones or => those who are changing ISP's) object to my requiring this information as an => invasion of their privacy. Naturally, this is causing new problems for our => list. => => I suppose that I could out-of-hand reject subscriptions from AOL'ers, but => that would not be a fair thing to do. => => Does anyone have any suggestions for me? I run some mailing lists for sports, and recently on one of them, supporters of a rival team have started joining and posting inflamatory comments. (The two teams, Rangers and Celtic, have a long rivalry with religous overtones. I run the Rangers list, and the latest postings from Celtic supports have been very IRA pro-terrorism.) We welcome interlopers who have on-topic things to say about the football teams. We strongly dislike off-topic postings, and insulting postings. The list has seen a few unsubscribes as a result. We've also seen some "subscribe/unsubscribe" wars with forged messages. As a result, the list has created an "expulsion" procedure, where we can vote to eject subscribers who violate the list's "rules." I've also started to screen all subscribes and unsubscribes. It adds to the work load a little bit, maybe 2 minutes/day. -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | I want a new toy james@sagarmatha.com | To keep my head expanding! | I want a new toy | Nothing too demanding... From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 12 08:19:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA04643 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:04:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA04637 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA05119; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:03:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9512121603.AA05119@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: spam alert - Learning Machine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 11:03:42 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Yesterday morning I received this addressed directly to me. Last night I received it at my list's -request address, and this morning it was sent directly to my list's submission address. I sent complaint mail upon receipt of the first copy (unsolicited advertising) and the address in the From header Fred.Sterling@zygn.com bounced with user unknown. (As did the auto-response sent from my -request address.) -Mitch ------------- Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:09:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199512121509.HAA18174@zygn.com> From: Fred.Sterling@zygn.com Subject: Learning Machine Apparently-To: Sender: orienteering-owner@Graphics.Cornell.edu Precedence: bulk RE: The Learning Machine Takes You Beyond Virtual Reality http://Zygon.com Amazing!! If you have a moment check out a new web site http://Zygon.com. They have an incredible new multi-media technology that uses a special digital headset that forces your mind to learn. It blew my mind!!! Kinda felt like I was dreaming, while l earning foreign languages, and programming my subconscious for success. And you can even read books with your eyes closed. Pretty awesome. The company offers a free 30 day trial. Check it out!!! From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 12 09:46:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA05172 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA05167 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA29663 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:29:03 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199512121729.KAA29663@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: "Phantom" Subscriber To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:29:02 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > We recently had a person (likely already a member) post (s/he may have > *subbed* first) using a newly created AOL screen-name for the sole > purpose of flaming a few of our regular members. As soon as that person > posted their nasties, they deleted the AOL screen-name (and, if they > were subbed, they probably un-subbed). > > Does anyone have any suggestions for me? First and foremost, I'd report this to abuse@aol.com, including the screen names used to post the hit-and-run flames. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Dec 12 10:16:19 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA06168 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from maytag.graphics.cornell.edu (MAYTAG.GRAPHICS.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.247.157]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA06163 for ; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:59:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by maytag.graphics.cornell.edu; (5.65/1.1.8.2/07Nov94-0649PM) id AA05857; Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:59:04 -0500 Message-Id: <9512121759.AA05857@maytag.graphics.cornell.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6gamma 3/31/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 95 19:21:54 EST." <199512120021.TAA08449@access5.digex.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 12:59:04 -0500 From: Mitch Collinsworth X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I suppose that I could out-of-hand reject subscriptions from AOL'ers, but >that would not be a fair thing to do. Why not? Any provider who allows its users to run unchecked pissing in other peoples' swimming pools deserves to be blacklisted from those pools. Your list belongs to you and your members, not to AOL or anyone else. If other members of your list on AOL are unhappy with this solution and want badly enough to stay on your list they will find a responsible service provider to get an account from. If the problem becomes widespread and AOL eventually loses enough accounts over this, something will eventually change. -Mitch From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 13 09:18:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA24601 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:55:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from t1.org (t1.org [205.197.6.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA24596 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: (from sbarclay@localhost) by t1.org (8.6.10/T1) id MAA00767; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:00:04 -0500 From: Steve Barclay Message-Id: <199512131700.MAA00767@t1.org> Subject: Moderated Lists To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:00:04 -0500 (EST) Cc: spak@t1.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am trying to set up a moderated list for our majordomo by setting the moderate to 'yes' under the .config file. This does not seem to work and messages still go through without being approved by the moderator (me). Does anyone know how to set up the list so that all messages going to the list must be approved by a moderator? All efforts thus far have not worked. Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Steve Barclay T1BBS SysOp From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 13 17:50:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA14387 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from imc.imc.org (center.imc.org [165.227.249.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with ESMTP id RAA14370 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:18:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [165.227.10.43] (cruzio43.cruzio.com [165.227.10.43]) by imc.imc.org (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA02119; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:14:08 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: paulh@imc.imc.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 17:18:52 -0800 To: jjflash , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: paulh@imc.org (Paul Hoffman) Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 4:21 PM 12/11/95, jjflash wrote: >I recently implemented a policy of >manually subbing new members, requiring some basic information including >name, phone number, etc. Some of the members (either brand new ones or >those who are changing ISP's) object to my requiring this information as an >invasion of their privacy. It's the old privacy-vs-openness debate. If these folks want a bit less openness (in this case, openness to attack from sub/unsub folks), they need to give up a bit of privacy to you, the content creator of the list. Mitch Collinsworth wrote: >Why not? Any provider who allows its users to run unchecked pissing in >other peoples' swimming pools deserves to be blacklisted from those >pools. I wholeheartedly disagree. If all Internet access cost the same, had the same user interface, and the same support, then maybe. But AOL is the only service available at a reasonable cost in some areas, and has a better email interface than smaller competitors in some areas. This is not to say "AOL is great": it isn't. But it is the best for millions of users who might want to be on jjflash's mailing list. --Paul Hoffman From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 13 20:16:20 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id UAA19776 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from turtle.mrj.com (turtle.mrj.com [205.160.13.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id UAA19771 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:10:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from newt.mrj.com (newt.mrj.com [205.160.13.69]) by turtle.mrj.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA06721 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:09:40 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:09:39 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Mayer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: SPAM? "Company Benefits being cut?" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I got this tonight. Looks local to my geographic area, but since we're exchanging COMINT here... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 22:07 EST From: Richard Baldwin <0002035363@mcimail.com> To: dc-sage Subject: Company Benefits being cut? -- [ From: Richard T. Baldwin * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] -- To: dc-sage Many technical firms in the DC area are trying to stay cost competitive by cutting employee benefits. On the chopping block are life insurance, AD&D and 401k contributions. Prime America Financial Services, the largest institution of its kind can help with * life insurance for you and your family * IRA's * Mutual Funds * Loans Contact a representative for more information at 2035363@mcimail.com. There is no charge for consulting services and you are under no obligation. From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 14 08:49:11 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id IAA05139 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id IAA05134 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA08093 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:21:43 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199512141621.JAA08093@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:21:42 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> I suppose that I could out-of-hand reject subscriptions from AOL'ers, but >> that would not be a fair thing to do. > > Why not? Any provider who allows its users to run unchecked pissing in > other peoples' swimming pools deserves to be blacklisted from those > pools. AOL doesn't let its users "run unchecked." Every incident of abuse I've reported to AOL has been dealt with promptly, which is more than I can say for many other access providers. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 15 09:17:03 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA16898 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ide.com (claven.IDE.COM [192.18.82.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA16888 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from shadowfx (78mac7.IDE.COM) by ide.com (4.1/IDE-1.0) id AA22262; Fri, 15 Dec 95 08:57:59 PST Received: by shadowfx (SMI-8.6/ide-1.0) id IAA24068; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:58:16 -0800 Message-Id: <199512151658.IAA24068@shadowfx> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:58:16 -0800 From: Roy Rapoport Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On December 14, 1995, Lazlo Nibble said: >> Why not? Any provider who allows its users to run unchecked pissing in >> other peoples' swimming pools deserves to be blacklisted from those >> pools. > >AOL doesn't let its users "run unchecked." Every incident of abuse I've >reported to AOL has been dealt with promptly, which is more than I can say >for many other access providers. Agreed. Unfortunately, many of the problems most net denizens have with AOL folks don't necessarily have to do much with 'abuse' per se -- they've got to do with the way AOL does stuff, like the fact that you can dynamically create/delete 5 names, which creates countless headaches for listadmins. Not to mention the general cluelessness of AOL users. Breast. -roy --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roy S. Rapoport UNIX/Mac System Administrator rsr@ide.com I do not, of course, speak for IDE Phone: 415-543-1314 ext. 280 Fax: 415-543-0145 From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 15 10:16:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id JAA17891 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id JAA17886 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:53:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA25686 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:53:00 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199512151753.KAA25686@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:53:00 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >> AOL doesn't let its users "run unchecked." Every incident of abuse >> I've reported to AOL has been dealt with promptly, which is more than I >> can say for many other access providers. > > Agreed. Unfortunately, many of the problems most net denizens have with > AOL folks don't necessarily have to do much with 'abuse' per se -- > they've got to do with the way AOL does stuff, like the fact that you > can dynamically create/delete 5 names, which creates countless headaches > for listadmins. I agree on this one; I'd feel much better about the screen-name business if there were some way to correlate all the names with a single account ID. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 15 21:16:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA01820 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA01798 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:13:11 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA08618 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:12:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:12:36 -0500 Message-ID: <951216001143_55644115@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 95-12-15 12:22:57 EST, rsr@ide.com (Roy Rapoport) writes: >Agreed. Unfortunately, many of the problems most net denizens have with >AOL folks don't necessarily have to do much with 'abuse' per se -- they've >got to do with the way AOL does stuff, like the fact that you can >dynamically create/delete 5 names, which creates countless headaches for >listadmins. Anyone misuing the AOL screen name feature is violating AOL TOS and can/will be terminated for doing so, if the abuse is reported to us (either TOSInet1@aol.com or abuse@aol.com, please). I do have to add that the only time I've had any problem with an AOL member on my lists was when the supervisor of one of the members joined the service and the list with the express purpose of 'watching' her employee. This may be due to the nature of the list and the general tendency of its members to bury clueless idiots in sarcasm, or it may not. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4001 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Fri Dec 15 21:46:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id VAA02311 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id VAA02306 for ; Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [198.69.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA00620; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:37:14 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id AAA21871; Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:37:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:37:11 -0500 (EST) From: Jason and Jill To: Lazlo Nibble cc: lm Subject: Re: "Phantom" Subscribers In-Reply-To: <199512151753.KAA25686@kitsune.swcp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I agree on this one; I'd feel much better about the screen-name business if > there were some way to correlate all the names with a single account ID. > After all, that's something every UNIX system in the world can do as long as the sysadmins want to allow it. Just pop some names in /etc/aliases Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Dec 17 13:47:51 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id NAA04834 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:16:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom.netcom.com (netcom.netcom.com [192.100.81.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id NAA04829 for ; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id NAA03599; Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:13:20 -0800 Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 13:13:19 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: List Software For SCO Unix?? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: jcook@netcom.com Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm considering running SCO unix on an intel machine, and the available choices of list management software and interfaces are an important concern. I would appreciate any advice or pointers on list management software that would work well with SCO. Please answer by private Email to me at jcook@netcom.com. I understand that Majordomo, being a Perl script, may work fine. Listproc at CERN appears not to be ported to SCO. I'm not knowwledgeable with unix issues, and would appreciate your help. Thank you. James Cook From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 18 11:19:02 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id KAA22489 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ([206.75.224.67]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id KAA22484 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 10:23:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca via Connect2-SMTP 4.00; Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:23:55 -0700 Message-ID: <4D43D53081476BE1@mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 11:23:00 -0700 From: Chet Meek Organization: City of Grande Prairie To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (ML_post LIST-MAN) Subject: Seeking Mailing List Service Provider X-mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.00 MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Good Day, I would like to locate a mailing list service provider for a list describing our CyberCity Initiative, and for the ensuing discussion and debate. Initially, it will be only a few tens of subscribers, and 10 or fewer messages per day. After that, who knows. If any of you can suggest a listserv or majordomo provider please let me know. Thanks. - Chet. ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 1 9 9 7 -- Forest Capital of Canada Fax: 403+539-1056 World-Wide Web: http://www.ccinet.ab.ca/city-of-gp/homepage.html ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 18 17:16:31 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA02548 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from user1.channel1.com (user1.channel1.com [199.1.13.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA02543 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from node144.channel1.com (node129.channel1.com [204.96.33.229]) by user1.channel1.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA05274 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:44:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:44:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199512190144.UAA05274@user1.channel1.com> X-Sender: susan@user1.channel1.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Susan E. Kaup" Subject: FreeBSD Sendmail error Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am getting the following error when attempting to mail to majordomo (when testing majordomo): to="|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper majordomo", delay=00;00;00, mailer=prog, stat=unknown mailer error 2 How do I correct this issue? If anyone has specific experience setting up majordomo on FreeBSD 2.0.5 I would appreciate your insight and help. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Susan E. Kaup Channel 1 Communications voice: (617) 864-0100 1030 Massachusetts Avenue fax: (617) 354-3100 Cambridge, MA 02138 http://www.channel1.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- From list-managers-owner Mon Dec 18 17:21:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id RAA02048 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from access5.digex.net (access5.digex.net [205.197.245.196]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id RAA02041 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:01:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jjflash@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA09829 ; for ; Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:00:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:00:44 -0500 (EST) From: jjflash X-Sender: jjflash@access5.digex.net To: Chet Meek cc: ML_post LIST-MAN Subject: Re: Seeking Mailing List Service Provider In-Reply-To: <4D43D53081476BE1@mhs.city.grande-prairie.ab.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chet - If you have WWW access, checck with http://www.pobox.com, then click on (i think) other services. They provide Majordomo (1.93) list services and are very reasonable ($50 - first year, $20/year after that - all regardless of volume). I have a list with them and am thinking of starting 2 more. They are quite reliable. If you don't have WWW access, write to them at pobox@pobox.com Jack On Mon, 18 Dec 1995, Chet Meek wrote: > > Good Day, > > I would like to locate a mailing list service provider > for a list describing our CyberCity Initiative, and > for the ensuing discussion and debate. Initially, it will > be only a few tens of subscribers, and 10 or fewer messages > per day. After that, who knows. > > If any of you can suggest a listserv or majordomo provider > please let me know. Thanks. - Chet. > > ---[ Chet Meek ]--[ E-mail: cmeek@city.grande-prairie.ab.ca ]--- > City of Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada Voice: 403+538-0443 > 1 9 9 7 -- Forest Capital of Canada Fax: 403+539-1056 > World-Wide Web: http://www.ccinet.ab.ca/city-of-gp/homepage.html > ---[ Strategic and Business Planning in a Municipal Setting ]--- > (thanks to my friend Joe Malin for the seasonal sig) * * * * * * * * * I I I I I I I I I \ \ \ \ | / / / / \-\-\-\ /-/-/-/ V Y I ----- ^------ ================== "A Great Miracle Happened There" ================== ***************************** jjflash@pobox.com ***************************** http://www.pobox.com/~jjflash ***************************** From list-managers-owner Wed Dec 20 12:50:21 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA16520 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net (tacoma.nwrain.net [204.71.149.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA16497 for ; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from p16.y0.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0tSUmJ-000oNyC; Wed, 20 Dec 95 12:06 PST Received: by p16.y0.nwrain.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BACED2.B5C8CE00@p16.y0.nwrain.net>; Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:00:09 -0800 Message-ID: <01BACED2.B5C8CE00@p16.y0.nwrain.net> From: Robert Kapela To: "'list-managers@GreatCircle.COM'" Cc: "'listown-l@SEARN.SUNET.SE'" Subject: Questions for Mailing List Owners or Managers Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:59:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hello, More and more companies want to start a mailing lists to 'broadcast = e-mail' information to large groups of people. Often times they will = already have a list of names and e-mail addresses that they will provide = to us to populate their mailing list. Before we will broadcast anything = we ask if the address list they have supplied are from people who have = asked to receive information from them. So far we have gone on the honor = system, however, we are becoming more and more concerned about potential = abuse of our mailing list hosting service by companies/individuals using = mailing lists to spam unsolicited e-mail addressees. =20 It is a difficult issue because businesses need to be able to advertise = to potential consumers who have e-mail addresses, yet on the Internet = consumers (for the most part) do not want to receive junk e-mail and get = spammed. At least with mailing list/list server technology if you do = receive unsolicited e-mail you can, (in theory) un-subscribe yourself = from the mailing list and stop receiving information (take your name of = the mailing list) or simply delete the message. My question for other mailing list managers/owners/hosting services is; 1. How do you balance the need of businesses to advertise or = communicate to Internet consumers using 'Broadcast E-Mail' or 'Mailing = Lists' while not infringing on the rights of consumers? 2. Should we as a mailing list host, but not owner try to police what = businesses and individuals are sending and to whom they are sending it? = If we do we could be legally liable? 3. Does anyone have any policies or procedures they use? Spencer-Davis Group From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 21 11:20:22 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id LAA20840 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest1.iquest.net (iquest1.iquest.net [206.27.192.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id LAA20835 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net by iquest1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #11) id m0tSqNv-000BPwC; Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:10 EST Received: from ts00-ind-19.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0tSqNs-00033aC; Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:10 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:09:44 +0000 Subject: AOL mail reader Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a mailing list that used to be handled by a majordomo, but is now being run with smartlist. I also have about 80 AOL users on the list, with about half getting mail on digest. Now since we've moved the list to NYX, AOL people can't do a private reply and the list address shows up as a CC when doing a "reply to all". shows up everywhere. I've looked at the headers from each place and can't for the life of me figure out what's triggering the AOL messup. Here's the headers. Tell me what you think the problem is: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here is a sample of the headers that came from MKNIT ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Return-Path: Received: from xiuko.ancor.com by dorite1.iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0ssWWn-00067Ha; Tue, 12 Sep 95 09:41 EST Received: (from bin@localhost) by xiuko.ancor.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA05743 for mknit-outgoing; Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:07:21 -0500 Received:from mail02.mail.aol.com (mail02.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.66]) by xiuko.ancor.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id JAA05739 for ; Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:07:16 -0500 From:SFarrow@AOL.COM Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA01581 for mknit@ancor.com; Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:07:11 -0400 Date:Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:07:11 -0400 Message-ID:<950912100710_97381211@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: mknit@ancor.com Subject: Books, WWW Sender: owner-mknit@Ancor.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: MKnit@Ancor.com X-UIDL: 810920196.003 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here's headers from NYX ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Return-Path: Received: from mordor.cs.du.edu by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #16) id m0tQOL0-00032gC; Thu, 14 Dec 95 19:49 EST Received: from nyx.net (nyx.cs.du.edu) by mordor.cs.du.edu with SMTP id AA09731 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:41:57 -0700 Received: by nyx.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00387; Thu, 14 Dec 95 17:43:23 MST Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:43:12 -0500 Resent-From: tiffany@nyx.net (Tiffany/Mailing List Mgmt) Resent-Message-Id: <9512150043.AA00387@nyx.net> Old-Return-Path: Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 19:43:12 -0500 From: ANordstrom@aol.com Message-Id: <951214194310_54503050@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: machine-knit@nyx.cs.du.edu X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/351 X-Loop: machine-knit@nyx.cs.du.edu Precedence: list Resent-Sender: machine-knit-request@nyx.cs.du.edu X-Admin-Requests-To: machine-knit-request@nyx.cs.du.edu Subject: [MK] Re: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) BOUN560 X-UIDL: 818989022.000 Any and all input would be appreciated Amy Amy Stinson -owner Machine-Knit Thought for the day: Committee--a group of men who individually can do nothing but as a group decide that nothing can be done. -- Fred Allen From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 21 12:50:26 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id MAA22920 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:41:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu (maroon.tc.umn.edu [128.101.118.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id MAA22915 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:41:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-1-15.gw.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:39:33 -0600 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 95 14:39:33 CST From: "Fred H Olson WB0YQM" Message-Id: <64709.fholson@maroon.tc.umn.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_18A Reply-To: Fred H Olson X-POPMail-Charset: English To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Confirmation of reading:" messages - PEGASUS? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have a small list that lately has gotten a few messages of the form: >Confirmation of reading: your message - > > Date: 19 Dec 95 14:59 > To: nbhd-tc@freenet.msp.mn.us > Subject: rtk.net > >Was read at 23:46, 19 Dec 95. > These seem to be generated by the PEGASUS mailer, maybe in response to a request for confirmation maybe only in response to a request for confirmation from another PEGUSUS generated message. I really dont know the details of this mechanism. The list with the problem runs under majordomo. Curiously my big list under Listproc has not had this problem. Has anyone found a general solution to keeping the list cluttered with these (short of filtering messages that start with "Confirmation of Reading" ) Fred -- Fred H. Olson fholson@uci.com (612)588-9532 Amateur radio: WB0YQM 1221 Russell Av N, Minneapolis,MN 55411 Sysop of COHOUSING-L listserv; COHOUSING URL's: mailto://listserv@uci.com (w/ msg: Info Cohousing-L) gopher://gopher.uci.com/ Twin Cities FREENET is in PUBLIC TEST PHASE URL's: mailto://info@freenet.msp.mn.us http://freenet.msp.mn.us/ From list-managers-owner Thu Dec 21 16:50:24 1995 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) id QAA27843 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:27:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-950430-1) with SMTP id QAA27838 for ; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:27:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [198.69.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with ESMTP id TAA29794; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:26:09 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA19841; Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:26:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:26:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jason and Jill To: Fred H Olson WB0YQM cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confirmation of reading:" messages - PEGASUS? In-Reply-To: <64709.fholson@maroon.tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >