From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 1 00:08:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA26347 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA26322 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from guest1.peg.apc.org (t40.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.168]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.10 ) with SMTP id SAA18238 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:59:43 +1000 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:59:43 +1000 Message-Id: <199602010859.SAA18238@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: janderson@peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: janderson@peg.apc.org (Jeff Anderson) Subject: Re: Ghost members Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >If you're using restrict_post, he could be forging his From header, using a >member's address. If you're using moderation, I'll bet he knows or has >guessed one of the list passwords (there are 3, at least in 1.93). > >-- >Byron > No, there is nothing untoward about the posts, the person doing it was a business acquaintance who was away during the new year break, was unsubscribed at his request and sent a message to the list instead of me to inform me that he was back. I have tried it myself, if I subscribe and then unsubscribe one of my work accounts, after being unsubscribed, I can still send to the list. I have now tried it with four account using four different service providers. All of them, once unsubscribed can still send to the list. It would make it difficult if I had occasion to ban someone. They would no longer receive mail but would still be able to send. Hopefully, once they stopped receiving they would also stop sending. I am wondering if this is unique to my installation of majordomo or general. Jeff Anderson From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 1 07:03:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA14434 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:38:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from discovery.igc.net (discovery.igc.net [205.198.244.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA14429 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 06:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from igc.net.igc.net (runabout1-67.igc.net [205.198.245.67]) by discovery.igc.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA02780 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:37:38 -0500 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:37:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199602011437.JAA02780@discovery.igc.net> X-Sender: cus@igc.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brian Wolfsohn Subject: Cost of mailing List Setup/Admin Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't know if this is on topic for this list, but i haven't seen this discussed anywhere else. I've seen ads for virtual hosts, and home pages, but not the cost for setting up &/or administrating mailing lists. Ok... I'm interested in setting up a couple of private subscription mailing lists. They would be no charge items for the first year (approx). The lists would be for our clients, for the auction industry in general, and for auctioneers. So it would probably be 1 list to start, going to 2 or 3 total. membership would be light at first, but i see it growing into 3 digits on some of the lists within a year. I don't know about message traffic, but i would imaging it would remain light (10 messages a day) over the first 6 months. I have no desire to learn or get involved with Unix, but i could also do administration if it was laid out for me.. (me, that's a DOS expert, windows novice+, clipper programmer). Can anyone give me an idea of what is should cost to have someone set up and host and help me when i need it in running these lists ? I currently have your basic ppp connection, and we've obtained our domain name cus.com. I plan on setting up a virtual server by the end of April and moving to a "real" one as the cost becomes justified. Again, sorry if i'm off topic, i know this isn't an administration question, but if anybody has any clues as to where else to ask, or any answers, i'd be grateful. Regards, Brian L. Wolfsohn Fort Lauderdale, FL C-U-S Business Systems - Software for Auctioneers blw@cus.com From list-managers-owner Thu Feb 1 15:53:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA06721 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from maki.wwa.com (maki.wwa.com [198.49.174.21]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA06716 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 15:51:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from miso.wwa.com by maki.wwa.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0ti8m1-000rY3C; Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:50 CST Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0ti8lz-000YOSC; Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:50 CST Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: X-Header: To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 17:50:38 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: from "Richard Tryzno Ellsberry" at Jan 31, 96 10:04:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Richard Ellsberry asked, | 1. Can one 'customize' any reasonable header by simply | appending 'X-' to it -- 'X-Copyright:', 'X-Hi-Mom:', | 'X-Communicated:', 'X-Post-Facto:', 'X-Cetera:' ? Yes. Even X-Tatic: and X-Kuze-Me:. RFC822 (I think) forbids any reserved header to have a name beginning with "X-". That in effect allows one to insert ad hoc headers (by giving them names starting with "X-") that will be safely ignored by compliant mail transports. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 2 11:54:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA13898 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:34:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se (mailgate.ericsson.se [130.100.2.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA13893 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:34:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ervgwy.eritel.se (ervgwy.eritel.se [192.71.49.65]) by mailgate.ericsson.se (8.6.11/1.0) with SMTP id UAA24717; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:33:49 +0100 Received: by ervgwy.eritel.se (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15339; Fri, 2 Feb 96 20:33:28 +0100 Received: from nasse.eritel.se(193.234.208.1) by ervgwy.eritel.se via smap (V1.3) id sma015337; Fri Feb 2 20:33:25 1996 Received: from pappa.eritel.se by nasse (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA25963; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:33:44 +0100 Received: by pappa.eritel.se (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA22757; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:33:43 +0100 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 20:33:43 +0100 (MET) From: Matz Engstrom X-Sender: matz@pappa To: jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Document comparing mailing list software In-Reply-To: <001310e4b6f016339@epx.cis.umn.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Have a look at: ftp://ftp.uu.net/usenet/news.answers/mail/list-admin/software-faq.Z Matz Engstrom, Eritel AB Sweden On Tue, 30 Jan 1996 jkg@epx.cis.umn.edu wrote: > Does anyone have a document that compares various mailing > list packages? I saw one in the past comparing listserv, > procmail, and majordomo. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 2 13:16:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA16886 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:48:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA25378 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA25320; Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:29:34 -0800 Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:29:34 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Steve Portigal cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Problems with Prodigy In-Reply-To: <199602010711.AA09155@jive.rahul.net> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Steve Portigal wrote: > I had a person from Prodigy tell me they couldn't unsub cuz the -request > address from my list has too many characters to fit into their > address window. God only knows how they managed to sub. > > Is this person just an idiot, or is Prodigy that crippled? My guess is that they sent the original message directly to majordomo or used a web form to subscribe (I've seen quite a few out there). If they used the latter, they should've been smart enough to use it to unsub (unless this particular form doesn't allow that). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 2 13:21:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA16770 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:46:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA23613 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA22237 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:12 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA15812 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5); Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:11 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA09155; Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199602010711.AA09155@jive.rahul.net> Subject: Re: Problems with Prodigy To: brozen@netvoyage.net (Brock Rozen) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:11:06 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brock Rozen" at Jan 31, 96 10:44:41 pm Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I had a person from Prodigy tell me they couldn't unsub cuz the -request address from my list has too many characters to fit into their address window. God only knows how they managed to sub. Is this person just an idiot, or is Prodigy that crippled? Steve -- | steve portigal G V O | user interface dude | culturally aware interface design From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 3 12:08:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA05332 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:03:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from vent.pipex.net (vent.pipex.net [158.43.128.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA05326 for ; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 12:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tadpole.intertrader.com by vent.pipex.net (8.6.12/PIPEX simple 1.20) id UAA16770; Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:02:19 GMT Received: by tadpole.intertrader.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #8) id m0tioDK-0004BfC; Sat, 3 Feb 96 20:05 GMT Message-Id: Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 20:05 GMT From: Rachel Willmer To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: Is Hypermail or equivalent available for Linux/FreeBSD? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk subject says it all... -- Intertrader Ltd - Internet Services for Business Internet Services: Web Design, Online Databases, Online Commerce, etc. Email rachel@intertrader.com or visit us at http://www.intertrader.com/ Mail autoresponders: info@intertrader.com, prices@intertrader.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 15:38:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA11388 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 15:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from moose.tiac.net (moose.tiac.net [199.0.65.7]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA11383 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 15:38:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from worldmachine.com (worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by moose.tiac.net (8.6.9/8.6.6.Beta9) with ESMTP id SAA22576 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:37:48 -0500 Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id SAA11653 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:38:44 -0500 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199602042338.SAA11653@worldmachine.com> Subject: Pattern matching for SPAM To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:38:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Folks, two of my lists have now been hit with the same free magazine SPAM message three times. For reference, two of the subject headers were: From: Sandee Loring Subject: Amazing FREE offer I found. From: Ellen Fox Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. USA Magazine Sub sent worldwide- up to $50.00 value!!! Given that the same message content seems to be getting forwarded around, what do you all think of some sort of fuzzy pattern matching for "known spams"? It's easy enough to change the subject heading of one of these messages, but changing the entire content is unlikely if the message is just getting forwarded. A possibly successful mechanism for filtering this crud would be to run a multiple pattern match on all incoming messages and bounce ones which have a high number of matches (i.e., run an egrep-like program on twenty or so unique or uncommon words that appear in the message). For you folks with high-volume lists, I know that the prospect of having to search/egrep through each incoming post is unrealistic, but it is still something to think about. I'm running SmartList, and my largest mailing list is about 260 members with average of 10 messages a day (digest only). Note that my suggestion here is based on the fact that I've received the *same* SPAM several times (from different senders, though). This mailing list (list-managers) could periodically post a list of patterns to filter known SPAM -- kind of like a virus detection program update. -Eric Level 42 Digest, Go West Digest, Incognito Digest -- Eric J. Hansen ...................... http://www.worldmachine.com/users/hansen SW Developer / Worldmachine Technologies ........ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 16:23:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA12554 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from hera.cuci.nl (hera.cuci.nl [194.183.100.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA12540 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (from srb@localhost) by hera.cuci.nl (8.7.3/BuGless_1.02) id BAA22823 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:07:09 +0100 Message-Id: <199602050007.BAA22823@hera.cuci.nl> From: srb@cuci.nl (Stephen R. van den Berg) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:07:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Hansen"'s message as of 1996 Feb 4 Sun 18:38. <199602042338.SAA11653@worldmachine.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Eric J. Hansen" wrote: >two of my lists have now been hit with the same free magazine SPAM message >three times. For reference, two of the subject headers were: Actually, the procmail and SmartList mailinglists (both maintained by me) have been hit by this spam about every two weeks since September. After the first two hits, I installed a very crude filter which does an ad hoc match for this exact spam. Has caught it every time since, even though the content changed a little over time as well. >getting forwarded. A possibly successful mechanism for filtering this crud >would be to run a multiple pattern match on all incoming messages and bounce >ones which have a high number of matches (i.e., run an egrep-like program on >twenty or so unique or uncommon words that appear in the message). As a matter of fact, I'm currently in the mail-spam collector market. In order to pick up a representative sample against which a generic spam filter can be tested. >Note that my suggestion here is based on the fact that I've received the >*same* SPAM several times (from different senders, though). This mailing >list (list-managers) could periodically post a list of patterns to filter >known SPAM -- kind of like a virus detection program update. That would never work for one-shot spams. -- Sincerely, srb@cuci.nl Stephen R. van den Berg (AKA BuGless). "And now for something *completely* different!" From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 18:08:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA18907 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom12.netcom.com (netcom12.netcom.com [192.100.81.124]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA18902 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom12.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id SAA10758; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:00:57 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:00:57 -0800 Message-Id: <199602050200.SAA10758@netcom12.netcom.com> From: Jerry Peek References: <199602042338.SAA11653@worldmachine.com> Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've been thinking about ways to stop spammers. Here's a system that might automatically cancel spam messages before they hit mailing lists. This is brainstorming, which means I purposely *haven't* thought out every detail. Brainstorms work best when other people find problems with the ideas and come up with new ideas that are more workable. I've been thinking about the "cancelbot" setup on Usenet. It isn't keeping spammers off of Usenet, but it's helping. (For those of you who don't know, Usenet netnews articles can be removed -- cancelled -- after they've been sent out. This is done with a "cancel" message that's sent after the original article has been sent. People, and automated systems, send out cancel messages for spams.) The problem on mailing lists is that messages can't be cancelled: Once the message is sent, the spam has hit the fan and it's too late. How could we do something like that on mailing lists? On moderated lists, it's easy: the moderator rejects most spam. The problem is unmoderated lists, eh? Here are some sorta random thoughts. Maybe these will move us toward a manageable cancel setup. 1. For lists where messages don't have to go out immediately, build in a one-day (or so) delay. The outgoing messages would sit in a mail file for a day, waiting to be (possibly) cancelled before they're distributed to the list. This should be easy to add to Unix MLMs as a front-end, with no MLM code change: Archive incoming mail from the alias file. For example, for a list named "gumbo", sendmail aliases for Majordomo could be: gumbo: /archive/dir/gumbo gumbo-real: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -l gumbo ..." Approved messages from /archive/dir/gumbo would be emailed to gumbo-real or could be directed straight to "wrapper resend". 2. Have an "Anti-Spam Central" (ASC) -- a (virtual) organization with one or more volunteers who agree to coordinate spam cancels. Moderators and other list owners (and maybe even regular subscribers?) who got a spam could forward the entire message to ASC. 3. ASC would evaluate messages submitted to see which were really spams. For verified spams, they would distribute spam-searching "stop lists." The stop lists they distribute could contain: - MD5 body checksums, and/or - message-IDs, and/or - lists of 20 uncommon words (from an automated dictionary match) or other "fuzzy" patterns that would match a slightly-modified spam. 4. These "stop lists" could be put on well-known Internet sites: ftp sites and dedicated telnettable ports. The stop lists could also be sent by PGP-signed email (etc.) to sites that don't have direct connections to the Internet. The MLM front-ends could retrieve these lists several times a day, then search their queued messages for spams. At each site, queued messages that match the stop lists would be forwarded to the list's owner (or someone) for approval... the rest would go automatically to their list. 5. This system could also stop "slow spams", where a spammer sends out the same spam once a day to a different list over a period of months. (ASC's stop list could hold info on old and "slow" spams as well as the latest ones.) Though this might be overdoing things, ASC could even be hooked into Usenet cancelbots. It could read Usenet cancel messages and grab the cancelled spam from Usenet. This would stop spam forwarded by Usenet gateways -- or spammers who spam both Usenet and mailing lists. Well, this isn't complete, but I think you get the idea. Comments? --Jerry Peek, jpeek@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 18:38:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA19498 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:28:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pyrenees.org (pyrenees.org [199.2.117.228]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA19493 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by pyrenees.org (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0tjGdt-0008QBC; Sun, 4 Feb 96 18:26 PST Message-Id: Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 18:26 PST From: jeffg@pyrenees.org (Jeff Glover) To: Jerry Peek Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM References: <199602042338.SAA11653@worldmachine.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > [a fairly complete description of an anti-spam proposal for mailing lists] I'd add a mechanism to notify the person sending the spam that the message was rejected and why. This needs to be polite, since sometimes (hopefully not too often) the message will be from a legit subscriber and they will get upset if the determination was incorrect. This mechanism would also carbon-copy to the list maintainer address. A problem with the FTP sites/dedicated telnettable ports idea is that a spammer could use the database to make spams that are unstoppable. I don't know what could be done here except to "register" mailing list sites/hosts as trusted users of the database, with a fairly good (minimum: telephone conversation) investigation of the trusted users... Of course, this is a major maintenance headache. Just how many "major" mailing lists are there that would want to use this service? Just my $0.02 Jeff jeffg@pyrenees.org Administrator, PYR-L From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 18:53:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA19897 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:40:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA19892 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:40:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21565; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:39:36 -0800 Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:39:33 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen To: Jerry Peek cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM In-Reply-To: <199602050200.SAA10758@netcom12.netcom.com> Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I think that that's putting WAY too much effort into this. Obviously, it would be nice if we had AI to cancel spams, but we don't. There is no generic spam, although some (very few) get sent out a few times. Spams are something that we have to live with, like crime. We can try and do our best to reduce it, but we also have to realize that the effort we put into this has to be realized, and if it only stops one or two spams over the course of a month or two, it's not worth our time! The lists I manage are all moderated and there are a few I manage which allow posting by the readers (one is a list that relays news from various sources, another is a discussion list; all are moderated). Truly, it does not take much time to moderate lists and remove spams. Truthfully, if your list is moderated, the spammer knows the message won't get through and won't waste their time in the future! Seriously though, if you're willing to have a message put in a queue, why not make that queue your INBOX? If you can live with a spam every so often, then you'll have no need to spend anymore time than you currently do on your list. I'm not saying we shouldn't discourage spams, but there is a limit to how much effort we should put in. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 21:53:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA26507 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dr-babe.atg.aol.com (dr-babe.atg.aol.com [152.163.64.100]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA08018 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 13:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by dr-babe.atg.aol.com (8.7.3/8.6.12) id QAA11681; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:43:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:43:57 -0500 (EST) From: "David B. O'Donnell" X-Sender: atropos@dr-babe.atg.aol.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: They did it again. Message-ID: Organization: America Online Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pass this on to any majordomo list owners: I have, once again, been forge-subscribed to hundreds of majordomo lists. While I will be mass-unsubscribing from what I can, I'd appreciate it you could do me the favor of (1) removing atropos@aol.com and/or atropos@aol.net from your list (2) filtering any future subscriptions from those addresses. If I want to join more lists, I'll write the list owners directly. Thanks in advance. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 22:53:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA28856 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:47:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA28849 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 22:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 1; Sun, 04 Feb 1996 22:45:53 PST Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 22:45:47 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: atropos@aol.net CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099D6DA.FD81B0A2.1@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: They did it again. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"atropos@aol.net" 4-FEB-1996 22:03:23.65 > Subj: They did it again. > Please pass this on to any majordomo list owners: > > I have, once again, been forge-subscribed to hundreds of majordomo lists. > While I will be mass-unsubscribing from what I can, I'd appreciate it you > could do me the favor of > > (1) removing atropos@aol.com and/or atropos@aol.net from your list > (2) filtering any future subscriptions from those addresses. > > If I want to join more lists, I'll write the list owners directly. > > Thanks in advance. > > -- > __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) > \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager > Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 > WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." > > OK, Davis, 'Fess up - whom did you tee off, besides those people who don't like responsible postmasters? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 4 23:53:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA29815 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA29810 for ; Sun, 4 Feb 1996 23:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm11.j51.com [199.224.7.235]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA11275 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:44:33 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960205074213.006db654@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 02:42:13 -0500 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Project Genesis Subject: Speaking of spams... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Did I mention that Project Genesis is an organization specializing in religious education? The message below explains why all of our public lists are moderated. I value privacy and have grave doubts about things like the Exon amendment (which may make Internet providers liable), but I also think that we need to ensure that the Internet not become one big red-light district. Spams like this are a step in the wrong direction. It hit several of our religion-oriented lists. Ken >Sender: kristina@free.org [User Unknown - I told her to go away.] >Subject: LIVE NUDE VIDEOCONFERENCING! > >Hi, >My name is Kristina. I'm a nude model and I'd >love to take my clothes off and entertain you. >You can watch me live and in color on your >computer. We can type back and forth and I'll >be happy to perform your erotic fantasy. If >this sounds like fun, visit the website and >download the software. The address is >http://www.[I don't plan to help them].com or you can get the >software from the BBS at 815-[ditto]. I'll >turn the camera on in my studio and wait to >hear from you. I think you'll like what I have >to show you. This isn't a movie...you make a >request and I'll probably fulfill it for you. >Look for my picture on the Website. Hope to >see you soon! > >Love, >Kristina From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 01:23:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA03012 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from peg.apc.org (peg.apc.org [192.131.13.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA03007 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from guest1.peg.apc.org (t47.dialup.peg.apc.org [192.203.176.175]) by peg.apc.org (8.6.9/Revision: 1.10 ) with SMTP id UAA20192 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:20:13 +1000 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:20:13 +1000 Message-Id: <199602051020.UAA20192@peg.apc.org> X-Sender: janderson@peg.apc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: janderson@peg.apc.org (Jeff Anderson) Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It would require a bit of programming, temp storage and increased bandwidth, but echoing messages from all lists continually hit by spamming to a database that searchs for duplicates, addressing them to the list owner and bouncing the non duplicates back to the respective lists would soon stop the problem. The spammer would have to alter each message and send to each list from a different address. Most spammers would quickly find something else to do. The delay wouldn't be that great and one site could act as a filter more a great many lists. It will eventually come to something of that ilk. It will have to. Jeff Anderson From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 02:08:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA04555 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA04550 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA02388 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:00:49 -0800 Received: by bolero.rahul.net id AA00622 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 02:00:48 -0800 Message-Id: <199602051000.AA00622@bolero.rahul.net> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM In-Reply-To: <199602051020.UAA20192@peg.apc.org> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 96 02:00:47 -0800 From: Michelle Dick Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jeff wrote: > do. The delay wouldn't be that great and one site could act as a filter more > a great many lists. It will eventually come to something of that ilk. It > will have to. I doubt it. I'm actually not that concerned about SPAM and mailing lists, at least, not for my lists. It's easy enough to make the lists such that subscribers only are permitted posting privileges. Only those lists where the owner doesn't consider that an appropriate option are really at risk for spam. Now, it may come to pass that we'll see spam preceeded by mass subscription to enable posting privileges, but if it does, I'll just implement an appropriate posting delay for new subscriptions (dead easy with SmartList and similarly so with majordomo assuming one has access to appropriate files and cron). I also divert all messages longer than 3KB for review before posting (nearly all legitimate message to my list are short -- I hand approve the longer ones). This limit is very good for catching urban legend posts (though my list info has a rather strident warning to subscribers not to post such things -- and, indeed, it's been many many months since someone has tried). The mailing list software available now is very powerful; I think handling spam is one of the easier tasks in running a list these days and it's only getting better. Unlike newsgroup software, mailing list software is more advanced than the spammers. It's been a long time since spam has made it to my list. My list (still predominantly unmoderated) is much less noisy now at 2500+ subscribers than it was in the early days of a few hundred. Michelle From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 03:53:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id DAA07740 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id DAA07724 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 03:38:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by felix.dircon.co.uk id AA24397 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:37:32 GMT Received: from diversity.org.uk(193.128.226.199) by amnesiac via smap (V1.3) id smac24339; Mon Feb 5 11:37:17 1996 From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:37:41 GMT Message-Id: References: Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article , Brock Rozen wrote: >The lists I manage are all moderated and there are a few I manage which >allow posting by the readers (one is a list that relays news from >various sources, another is a discussion list; all are moderated). Truly, it >does not take much time to moderate lists and remove spams. When I started my first list, I decided that it would accept posts only from members, largely because it deals with sexuality. That was the main reason for writing my own list processor, and it frankly doesn't take too much effort handle addresses that aren't authorised - feed them into a script and then add the address to the auth database. Most of the time, this will deal with anything that comes up, and even with 450 members and up to 60 messages a day, I usually only have a couple of genuine posts with mangled headers that need to be released from the queue. (Fortunately, I don't think I've had any attempts to spam uk-motss yet). In the long term, seeing the problems that people have with spam, I don't think I'd run a list without this sort of address checking. So, I've now re-written the list's front-end to do the checking more efficiently. Of course, some spam will come from list members; the main tactic I use to prevent anything like that is simply a line limit; the lists I run are discussion lists. Sometimes things do get a bit verbose, but messages are often quite short. The list holds messages more than 150 lines long for my attention (which also stops people sending back digests). Again, it's a little more work, but not much in day to day operation. The updated script that does all this is more or less tested (it'll also bounce messages with uuencoded, binhex or certain MIME types); give me a few weeks and maybe I'll have something that people can drop in as a filter for other software. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 05:08:25 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA09967 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:54:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [198.4.9.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA09962 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 04:54:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA29041; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 05:49:24 -0500 Date: 05 Feb 96 05:45:45 EST From: To: Subject: Re[2]: Pattern matching for SPAM Message-ID: <960205104545_702420.204300_BHD25-1@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk |two spams over the course of a month or two, it's not worth our time! |The lists I manage are all moderated and there are a few I manage which |allow posting by the readers (one is a list that relays news from |various sources, another is a discussion list; all are moderated). Truly, it |does not take much time to moderate lists and remove spams. Likewise, a list of mine was targetted twic in a couple of weeks by the magazine scam - but second time it didn't get anywhere, since I switched the list to being open to postings only from subscribed members. There's no moderation, but this simple step has cut out this scam, and I'd guess a fair number in the future. It's easy for a spammer to pick up posting addresses from BITNET new-list - it's more work to deal with the various subscription engines out there and get onto them. That I guess will come, and some magic cookie scheme - or worse, manual checking - may be required. Until then, the switch from open subbing, open posting to open subbing, subscriber-only posting has bought some time. cheers jey =========================================================================== Jeffrey R Burrows http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jey ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Robert Frost, the distinguished New England poet, used to define a liberal as someone who refused to take his own side in an argument." "Dreaming of JFK", The Economist, 17 March 1984 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 07:08:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA13147 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:59:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com (mail06.mail.aol.com [152.163.172.108]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA13142 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:59:11 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA10903; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:58:16 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:58:16 -0500 Message-ID: <960205095815_136227044@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, spam-l@searn.sunet.se Subject: Bombed again. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Please pass this on to any majordomo list owners: This past weekend, you may have received a subscription request to your list(s) from "ListMaster@aol.com". These subscription requests were forged. If you would be kind enough to remove ListMaster from your lists, it would be greatly appreciated. ListMaster@aol.com has no need to be on any mailing lists, so feel free to add it to any filters you have. Thanks in advance. -- __ David B. O'Donnell (atropos@aol.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com, Atropos@gnn.com) \/ AOL Internet Feedback/Response/Information Team Manager, LISTSERV Manager Tel. 703/453-4000 x4255 FAX 703/453-4102 Pager 800/759-8888 PIN 128-5338 WWW: http://www.cais.com/atropos/ "The spam stops here." From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 07:54:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA14836 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:48:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.43]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA14822 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:48:21 -0800 (PST) From: PMDAtropos@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA23808 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:47:18 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:47:18 -0500 Message-ID: <960205104717_313037911@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: They did it again. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a message dated 96-02-05 02:01:53 EST, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) writes: >'Fess up - whom did you tee off, besides those people who don't >like responsible postmasters? It's hard to say, unfortunately. It could be one of many ex-AOL users who I've terminated for abusing the net, it could be someone who just hates AOL, it could be one of the several mass junk mailers who have been targeting AOL users... or any number of people :-/ --David From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 08:08:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA15527 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US (crpl.cedar-rapids.lib.ia.us [198.134.138.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA15519 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 9:55:14 -0600 (CST) From: TERRY OWEN To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-Id: <960205095514.9c38@CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US> Subject: RE: List-Managers-Digest V5 #24 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With all this talk of spams hitting the mailing lists represented here, I just thought I'd mention that the listserv at psuvm.psu.edu (where my fanzine list resides) faithfully dumps these in with my error messages from the list. All I have to do is delete them. Since I'm considering starting a new list with a commercial host who uses Majordomo it seems that this is something I'd have to consider. Is there a mailing service provider who uses listserv software? Or something similar? Terry Owen BrionyLodge@crpl.cedar-rapids.lib.ia.us From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 08:38:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA17494 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA17489 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA25977; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:29:25 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17200; Mon, 5 Feb 96 08:29:23 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9602051629.AA17200@siesta> Subject: Re: Pattern matching for SPAM To: BRIONYLODGE@CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US (TERRY OWEN) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:29:23 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <960205095514.9c38@CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US> from "TERRY OWEN" at Feb 5, 96 09:55:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk TERRY OWEN writes: > > With all this talk of spams hitting the mailing lists represented here, I just > thought I'd mention that the listserv at psuvm.psu.edu (where my fanzine list > resides) faithfully dumps these in with my error messages from the list. All I > have to do is delete them. Since I'm considering starting a new list with a > commercial host who uses Majordomo it seems that this is something I'd have to > consider. Is there a mailing service provider who uses listserv software? Or > something similar? Majordomo caught the 2 Magazine spam posts that hit my 2 lists because they had an invalid "Approved:" header line. -Jeff From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 08:53:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA18445 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA18440 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id IAA04210; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:51:37 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/951211.SGI.AUTO) id IAA23693; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:51:36 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199602051651.IAA23693@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: BRIONYLODGE@CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US (TERRY OWEN) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <960205095514.9c38@CRPL.CEDAR-RAPIDS.LIB.IA.US> from "TERRY OWEN" at Feb 05, 1996 09:55:14 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk TERRY OWEN wrote: > With all this talk of spams hitting the mailing lists represented here, I just > thought I'd mention that the listserv at psuvm.psu.edu (where my fanzine list > resides) faithfully dumps these in with my error messages from the list. All I > have to do is delete them. Since I'm considering starting a new list with a > commercial host who uses Majordomo it seems that this is something I'd have to > consider. Majordomo does the same thing. Right now all KK's spams are trapped due to "invalid approved header", but if he ever found a way around this (very doubtful, given majordomo's approval system), just set the "restrict-post" line and all spam is caught. KK faithfully sends his spams to my lists every week (and has for years now :-), and every week they're trapped and sent to me for deletion. Procmail even deletes them automatically for me now. :-) No spam has reached my majordomo-run lists for over two years now. -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 09:11:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA19033 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:00:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com.43.186.205.IN-ADDR.ARPA [205.186.43.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA19023 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:00:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602051700.JAA19023@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7088; Mon, 05 Feb 96 11:59:35 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1336; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:59:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:57:53 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:51:35 -0800 (PST) Diane Barlow Close said: >TERRY OWEN wrote: With all >> this talk of spams hitting the mailing lists represented here, I just >> thought I'd mention that the listserv at psuvm.psu.edu (where my >> fanzine list resides) faithfully dumps these in with my error messages >> from the list. All I have to do is delete them. > >Majordomo does the same thing. No, it doesn't. Majordomo lets you configure your list so that people who aren't on the list can't post. LISTSERV's spam detector catches spams even when the list is totally open and anyone is allowed to post (and of course you can also restrict posting to subscribers, moderator, etc). Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 10:39:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA23194 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:23:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA23143 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:23:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by outsider.bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA20385; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:18:04 -0800 Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tjVAD-000UpoC; Mon, 5 Feb 96 09:57 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: Eric Thomas , List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 10:00:12 -800 Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >Majordomo does the same thing. > > No, it doesn't. Majordomo lets you configure your list so that people who > aren't on the list can't post. LISTSERV's spam detector catches spams > even when the list is totally open and anyone is allowed to post (and of > course you can also restrict posting to subscribers, moderator, etc). Majordomo has a number of things, including the recent "taboo" patches. Perhaps you can tell us *how* Listserv catches spams on a totally open list or what it looks for, for a fair comparison. - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator http://www.bolis.com Batteries not included. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 14:38:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA07622 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:33:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA07602 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id OAA26073; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:32:35 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/951211.SGI.AUTO) id OAA05127; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:32:31 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199602052232.OAA05127@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:32:29 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199602051700.JAA19023@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at Feb 05, 1996 11:57:53 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas wrote: > No, it doesn't. Majordomo lets you configure your list so that people who > aren't on the list can't post. True. > LISTSERV's spam detector catches spams > even when the list is totally open and anyone is allowed to post (and of > [snip] Sounds exactly like Majordomo's new "taboo-headers" and "taboo-body". I set mine to catch /^Received: .*freeppp.com/i and any reference to magazines or other common "catch phrases" that KK likes to use. "Approved: moderator" is another good one. So yes, majordomo too can be configured to catch spam sent to an open list. Closing the list makes the job even easier imo. So how does "spam detector" differ from the "taboo catcher"? -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 15:15:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA09273 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (urth.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA09191 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:00:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from pjg@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by urth (8.7.2/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA04541; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:59:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199602052259.RAA04541@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> To: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. In-reply-to: A message of "Mon, 05 Feb 1996 14:32:29 PST." Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 17:59:01 -0500 From: Paul Graham Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk a large number of the listserv machines are interconnected (i suspect all the ones that host public lists) and share information. this lets them do things that independent systems can't. i understand that listproc can also share information with other listproc systems so it may be able to do clever things. it would be nice if the listserv notifications could be distributed elsewhere so that other systems that able to do dynamic exclusion updates could take advantage of them. -------- In reply to: So how does "spam detector" differ from the "taboo catcher"? --------------------- -- paul pjg@acsu.Buffalo.EDU |public keys at: pjg@ubvm | http://urth.acsu.Buffalo.EDU/~pjg/key.html if the above contains opinions they are mine unless marked otherwise. From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 15:23:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA08771 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com.43.186.205.IN-ADDR.ARPA [205.186.43.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA08745 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:53:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602052253.OAA08745@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7298; Mon, 05 Feb 96 17:52:11 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1755; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:52:11 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:35:25 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:32:29 -0800 (PST) from Diane Barlow Close Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 14:32:29 -0800 (PST) Diane Barlow Close said: >> LISTSERV's spam detector catches spams even when the list is totally >> open and anyone is allowed to post (and of [snip] > >Sounds exactly like Majordomo's new "taboo-headers" and "taboo-body". Sorry, but it's completely different. Keyword based filters may be very effective at catching recurring spams, like the magazine subscription club, but they are of limited usefulness with brand new spams, like the nude video conferencing one we got recently. Plus, if you filter too many keywords, you end up blocking perfectly legitimate postings. And filtering out entire domains just because one of the accounts was used for spamming, it's outright unfair to the other innocent users. LISTSERV's spam detector, which has been around for nearly a year, is not keyword based. It just detects messages that are posted to large number of lists in a short period of time, and blocks them. It doesn't matter whether the message contains the usual catch phrases, which I'm afraid to type here since my message might get filtered, even though it isn't a spam. In fact, the software isn't passing judgment on the *contents* of your message (and exposing you to lawsuits), it's just decreeing that any message posted to thousands of mailing lists is bound to be out of topic for a large fraction of these lists. The definition of "spam" is *not* "advertisement", but "message posted to a bunch of lists that have nothing to do with the subject matter". You can't build a spam filter with a pattern matching engine - all you can create is an advertisement filter, and not all advertisements are inappropriate. Conversely, not all spams are ads (aren't you tired of being invited to conferences in exotic resorts all over the world?), and it's easy to reword an ad so it doesn't sound like an ad any longer. Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 15:53:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA13361 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from pathfinder.com (relay.pathfinder.com [204.71.242.18]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA13341 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tigger.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com by pathfinder.com (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id SAA20664; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:51:37 -0500 Received: by tigger.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA01138; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:51:51 -0500 From: ahanes@pathfinder.com (Amanda Hanes (Pathfinder)) Message-Id: <199602052351.SAA01138@tigger.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:51:45 -0500 (EST) To: jrvb@info.cren.net Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: serverd died: LISTPROC: Internal error, exit code 16 (fwd) X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960123-sol24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> Forwarded message from server (listproc server daemon) Return-Path: Received: by pathfinder.com (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) id SAA20526; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:48:12 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:48:12 -0500 From: server (listproc server daemon) Message-Id: <199602052348.SAA20526@pathfinder.com> To: ahanes@pathfinder.com Subject: serverd died: LISTPROC: Internal error, exit code 16 Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1 << End forwarded message Any idea what caused this? Thanks in advance! Amanda Amanda S. Hanes System Engineer, Pathfinder Time Inc., New Media (x3585) From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 16:39:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA15862 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA15857 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA038246334; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:25:34 -0500 Message-Id: <3116A010.2981@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 19:25:52 -0500 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b6a (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Diane Barlow Close Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. References: <199602052232.OAA05127@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk So, What is this Taboo List pach and where do I get it. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 16:53:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA17259 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:47:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com.43.186.205.IN-ADDR.ARPA [205.186.43.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA17245 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:47:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602060047.QAA17245@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7377; Mon, 05 Feb 96 19:46:39 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 1912; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:46:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:45:33 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: Diane Barlow Close cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) from Diane Barlow Close Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) Diane Barlow Close said: >My husband (one of the "official" majordomo "enhancers") has hacked a >similar thing into our version of majordomo -- it simply catches things >sent "To:" too many places/addresses. Is that more like what you are >talking about with Listserv? No, only idiots send spams with "To:" fields listing hundreds of lists. You can't rely on the fact that all spammers are idiots; the Spam King and others certainly knew better :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 17:09:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA16943 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:42:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgi.sgi.com (SGI.COM [192.48.153.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA16938 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:42:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sgihub.corp.sgi.com by sgi.sgi.com via ESMTP (950405.SGI.8.6.12/910110.SGI) id QAA25453; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:41:31 -0800 Received: from lunch.engr.sgi.com by sgihub.corp.sgi.com via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/911001.SGI) id QAA17503; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:23:31 -0800 Received: by lunch.engr.sgi.com (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/951211.SGI.AUTO) id QAA09522; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:23:30 -0800 From: close@lunch.engr.sgi.com (Diane Barlow Close) Message-Id: <199602060023.QAA09522@lunch.engr.sgi.com> Subject: Re: majordomo and trapping spam versus Listserv. To: ERIC@VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (Eric Thomas) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199602052253.OAA08745@miles.greatcircle.com> from "Eric Thomas" at Feb 05, 1996 05:35:25 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0a8s] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Eric Thomas wrote: > LISTSERV's spam detector, which has been around for nearly a year, is not > keyword based. It just detects messages that are posted to large number > of lists in a short period of time, and blocks them. It doesn't matter My husband (one of the "official" majordomo "enhancers") has hacked a similar thing into our version of majordomo -- it simply catches things sent "To:" too many places/addresses. The vast majority of spams simply have an excessively long "To:" and "cc" line. Is that more like what you are talking about with Listserv? -- Diane Close I'm at lunch all day. :-) If a Canadian Had Said It First (The Globe & Mail): "Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of a peacekeeping mission!" From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 17:38:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA19704 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from presence.lglobal.com (presence.lglobal.com [204.50.121.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA19699 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from presence.lglobal.com (jesse@presence.lglobal.com [204.50.121.2]) by presence.lglobal.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA12575 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:38:05 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:38:05 -0500 (EST) From: Jesse Hirsh To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: mail program for windozeNT In-Reply-To: <199602052259.RAA04541@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk does anyone know of a mailer for windozeNT? From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 5 20:08:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA26201 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from info.cren.net (info.cren.net [198.76.81.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA26196 for ; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:03:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (jrvb@localhost) by info.cren.net (8.6.12/8.6.4 (CREN)) id XAA13193; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:02:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:02:34 -0500 (EST) From: James Robert von Behren X-Sender: jrvb@info To: Amanda Hanes cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: serverd died: LISTPROC: Internal error, exit code 16 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199602052351.SAA01138@tigger.dev.pathfinder.com.pathfinder.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Amanda - I believe that exit code 16 means that the server ran out of system resources. (most likely processes.) Probably the best thing to do would be to reboot your machine, to clean up the system. -Rob On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, Amanda Hanes wrote: > >>>>> Forwarded message from server (listproc server daemon) > > Return-Path: > Received: by pathfinder.com (8.6.12/SMI-SVR4) > id SAA20526; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:48:12 -0500 > Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:48:12 -0500 > From: server (listproc server daemon) > Message-Id: <199602052348.SAA20526@pathfinder.com> > To: ahanes@pathfinder.com > Subject: serverd died: LISTPROC: Internal error, exit code 16 > Content-Type: text > Content-Length: 1 > > > > << End forwarded message > > Any idea what caused this? > > Thanks in advance! > > Amanda > > > Amanda S. Hanes > System Engineer, Pathfinder > Time Inc., New Media (x3585) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- J. Rob von Behren CREN Programmer/Analyst Phone: (202) 331-5363 Fax: (202) 293-2853 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 6 07:09:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA16821 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:06:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp12.netcom.com [163.179.3.12]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA16816 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:05:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id GAA24758; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 06:40:15 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tjnpt-000gmAC; Tue, 6 Feb 96 05:53 PST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Have any of you seen this before To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 05:53:33 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I recently started to see some spew back from microsoft.com for one of my mailing lists; it looks like it is being returned to the original "From " line. The message is intact, and there is no error message information. Here's a copy of one of the headers: From microsoft.com!-d0-99.127 Mon Feb 5 23:04:05 1996 Return-Path: Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tjedQ-000gm9C; Mon, 5 Feb 96 23:04 EST Sender: microsoft.com!-d0-99.127 Received: from tide03.microsoft.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id TAA21135; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:33:40 -0800 Received: by tide03.microsoft.com; id TAA29070; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 19:44:31 -0800 Received: from uucp12.netcom.com(163.179.3.12) by tide03.microsoft.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma029026; Mon, 5 Feb 96 19:44:15 -0800 Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id SAA07773; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 18:57:48 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tjdR2-000gmDC; Mon, 5 Feb 96 21:47 EST Sender: owner-rangers-list@sagarmatha.com Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tjdQq-000gm9C; Mon, 5 Feb 96 21:47 EST Received: from Black.Cerritos.edu by netcomsv.netcom.com with ESMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id RAA06895; Mon, 5 Feb 1996 17:20:34 -0800 Received: from Cerritos.edu by Cerritos.edu (PMDF V5.0-5 #11610) id <01I0V1K6UJJO9KQ5Q3@Cerritos.edu> for rangers-list@sagarmatha.com; Mon, 05 Feb 1996 17:21:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 17:21:07 -0800 (PST) From: CAMPBELL BRIAN Subject: Re: Mc Coist and the U.S.A To: rangers-list@sagarmatha.com Message-id: <01I0V1K6UJJQ9KQ5Q3@Cerritos.edu> X-VMS-To: IN%"rangers-list@sagarmatha.com" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-rangers-list@sagarmatha.com Precedence: list Reply-To: rangers-list@sagarmatha.com Status: RO The message was sent to my machine, where majordomo expanded it and forwarded it to the rangers-list. There are two users @microsoft.com on this list. The message apparently goes all the way to that site, where it gets sent back, for no apparent reason... Have any of you experienced this on your lists? -- James C. Armstrong, Jr. | I told my love, I told my love, james@sagarmatha.com | I told her all my heart, | Trembling, cold, in ghastly fears-- | Ah, she doth depart. From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 6 07:38:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA18596 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ttown.apci.com (ttown.apci.com [204.27.156.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA18591 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 07:37:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from zukrp@localhost) by ttown.apci.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA02789; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:37:02 -0500 Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:37:02 -0500 (EST) From: Roland Zuk To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Have any of you seen this before In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, James C. Armstrong wrote: > The message was sent to my machine, where majordomo expanded it and > forwarded it to the rangers-list. There are two users @microsoft.com > on this list. The message apparently goes all the way to that > site, where it gets sent back, for no apparent reason... > > Have any of you experienced this on your lists? Yes, I started getting the same thing a day or two ago, also from mail routed through the tide03.microsoft.com machine. I sent some test mails to a list subscriber @microsoft and found that mail without a Reply-To: in the header does not bounce, but mail with a reply-to header (as my list has), gets mirrored back to my majordomo server and ends up in duplicate postings to my list. I've notified my subscribers at microsoft.com and dropped them from the list pending resolution. Regards, Roland Admin, merkur-l merkur-l-owner@npl.com From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 6 18:53:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA19207 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:41:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from thud.cs.utk.edu (THUD.CS.UTK.EDU [128.169.94.228]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA19202 for ; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from LOCALHOST.cs.utk.edu by thud.cs.utk.edu with SMTP (cf v2.11c-UTK) id VAA13860; Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:39:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199602070239.VAA13860@thud.cs.utk.edu> X-URI: http://www.cs.utk.edu/~moore/ From: Keith Moore To: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, moore@cs.utk.edu Subject: Re: Have any of you seen this before In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Feb 1996 05:53:33 PST." Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 21:39:58 -0500 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I recently started to see some spew back from microsoft.com for > one of my mailing lists; it looks like it is being returned to > the original "From " line. The message is intact, and there is > no error message information. > Have any of you experienced this on your lists? Yes, I've seen them too. They're being sent to the envelope return address (not the header From address) of one of my lists. I sent mail to postmaster@microsoft.com about them as well as to the microsoft.com people on my lists. One of them said the problem was that their server was down last night (obviously they've never heard of queue and retry later) and that this was a nondelivery report. Since the returned message was indistinguishable from an ordinary message, I'm referring them to RFC's 1891-1894 -- the new internet standards track protocols for {non}delivery notifications. Keith -------- Take the pledge! "I will not limit my speech to satisfy the whims of Congress." From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 10:54:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA19717 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (LEPOMIS.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.68.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA19686 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30095; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:35:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:35:07 -0500 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9602071835.AA30095@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Class assignments revisited... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk For those of you that weren't here: Last Fall one of my lists was "assaulted" by a couple of classes -- instructors apparently gave students the assignment of subscribing to and unsubscribing from a list. Neither they nor previous instructors have ever given me specifics about how their assignments were spelled out to the students, but given the number of people involved I presume that my list was at best one of a small number of options given to the students during these assignments. Whether you've heard that before or not: I'm now getting assaulted by two more classes. Last night I got around 100 messages all as a result of mistakes made by the students of one of these two classes. The other one (in shades of last Fall's nightmares) is now bouncing all mail because there's a missing quotation mark in the machine's aliases file. All of the people from the offending sites are now on "vacation" from my lists, and I've attempted to contact them all to explain why, so I think I've performed all of the damage control that I can at this point (oh yeah, my MLM has been instructed to ignore all mail from either of the two sites). What I'd like to know is: what can we do to advertise to potential instructors that they shouldn't create such assignments? I suspect that some of you have also been hit without realizing it -- one of the two sites creating my current headache has been a low level irritant for a week or two. I finally reached the conclusion that it was a class assignment when I saw "eng314" as part of the alias problem I mentioned above. If their administrator hadn't biffed the creation of that alias, I might never have come across any such firm evidence (asking the students is generally like sending mail to /dev/null). In any case, I've checked out the website of the institution and found a faculty person that I'm guessing is the instructor because he refers to an "internet class" as though he expects its students to be reading his page -- and when I tried to send e-mail to him it bounced back to me because of the same alias problem. That's typically the sort of thing I run into when trying to make my class-exercise related problems go away. If anyone has any idea what I (or we) can do to prevent this sort of nonsense I'd really like to know. Certain times of the year this problem will be much more time-consuming than dealing with spams for some of us... On an unrelated note, I only get the digest version of this list, and a few times in the last couple of weeks I've received partial headers with no included messages. Is anybody aware of that problem? Thanks for at least giving me an outlet to share my pain! -- Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 12:13:29 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA24278 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:42:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from hamjudo.com (router.hamjudo.com [152.160.58.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA24189 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:41:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by hamjudo.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0tkFnq-000J8oC; Wed, 7 Feb 96 14:45 EST Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:45:17 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Haas To: Mickey Rowe cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Class assignments revisited... In-Reply-To: <9602071835.AA30095@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Mickey Rowe wrote: > That's typically the sort of > thing I run into when trying to make my class-exercise related > problems go away. If anyone has any idea what I (or we) can do to > prevent this sort of nonsense I'd really like to know. If "we" provide a list or lists specifically for class-exercises, then we can give those folks a place to go. I created an email address for demonstrating my computer skills. It has worked great for getting me jobs, and it also works well for "Intro to the Internet" assignments and demonstrations. It is not a list, only a system that answers all of it's email, so it doesn't fill the list homework need. The listed address for my "hottub on the Internet" is hottub@hamjudo.com. The hot tub responds with its current temperature and a few other worthless pieces of information. It is sufficiently strange that people try it once and tell their friends to try it, but sufficiently boring that they don't try it repeatedly unless they are debugging an email problem. Instructors could tell students to send "help" to their nearest mailing list manager, but I guess the hottub is marginally more interesting. It's email gets forwarded to hottub@hogwild.hamjudo.com. I moved the hottub interface to that machine, because it had more serial ports. The move greatly cut down on postmaster email on the main machine, so I've learned to put email demo systems on separate hosts. I'm sure a virtual host would be sufficient. I glance at that machines postmaster email about once a week. It's fairly low maintenance. Someone, the "we" in my first paragraph, can set up a dedicated mail list server for mailing list practice. It would be a fine system for low key advertising, targeted at people new to the Internet. -- Paul Haas paulh@hamjudo.com http://www.hamjudo.com VP of Technology at The Internet Factory, Inc. http://www.netfactory.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 13:31:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA29168 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:09:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ns.draper.com (ns.draper.com [140.102.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA29155 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:09:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from surname.draper.com by ns.draper.com id aa28021; 7 Feb 96 16:08 EST Received: from egbsun1.draper.com by surname.draper.com id aa03492; 7 Feb 96 16:08 EST Received: from egbsun21 by egbsun1 (8.6.8/sendmail-8.6.8) id QAA20987; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:06:57 -0500 Received: by egbsun21 (8.6.8/sendmail-8.6.8) id QAA09892; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:05:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:05:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199602072105.QAA09892@egbsun21> To: List-Managers@greatcircle.com cc: Bruce Mackenzie From: Bruce A Mackenzie Reply-To: Bruce A Mackenzie Subject: Suggest practice lists for testing new config. files Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Paul Haas wrote: >>set up a dedicated mail list server for mailing list practice. I would like to suggest that EVERY majordomo (or listserve ?) site have a special list for testing new configuration files and letting new list administrators (like myself) practice. The list could be called: test-list@___.com There would be a standard password, and no permanent subscribers. Before a list-administrator changes a config file, she would subscribe to the test-list, download the config file to it, and send a few test messages. ...just be careful to leave the password unchanged for the next person. For example, I have had problems with majordomo replacing the domain name in the From and Reply_To fields, and testing that only subscribers may post messages, etc. Currently, I take one of our less used lists, unsubscribe everyone, load the new config file, and test it. Incidentally, I do not have an account on the host machine, so all this is via e-mail to majordomo. If someone can get this suggestion into the majordomo & listserve installation documentation (or if it already is), please send me a note privately. -Thanks. ---Bruce A. Mackenzie BMackenzie@draper.com From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 14:26:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA02588 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA02581 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA01903; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:02:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 17:02:44 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer To: Spam Prevention Discussion List cc: List Managers Mailing List Subject: MONEY Daily: How to keep the spam off your e-mail plate (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's an interesting article I found in my mailbox today. $**************************************************************************= $ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov = * * CEO & System Administrator CompuServe: 71324.212@compuserve.com = * * of GSP Services, Inc. Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com = * * Located in Washington, DC, USA Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com = * * For more info, e-mail info@gsp.com gsp@village.ios.com = * * "Balance the Budget!" WWW: http://village.ios.com/~gsp/ = * $**************************************************************************= $ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:11:13 EST From: MONEY Daily To: MONEY Daily summary of news affecting your finances Subject: MONEY Daily: How to keep the spam off your e-mail plate Wednesday, February 7, 1996 How to keep the spam off your e-mail plate by Wilson Smith Bulk e-mail -- unaffectionately known on the=20 Internet as "spam" -- has been shunned, scorned and=20 reviled by anyone unlucky enough to find his e-mail=20 box overflowing with trashy ads. Now the spammers=20 are trying to present themselves as responsible=20 direct marketers, and are actively pitching their=20 services to small businesses and entrepreneurs. But=20 for millions of Internet users, they remain an=20 annoyance -- and we describe below how to avoid=20 eating what they serve. First appearing as unwanted postings on Internet=20 news groups, spam has migrated into broader=20 Internet communications, namely e-mail. With its=20 roots in the crudest and most transparent=20 matchbook-cover-style pitches and get-rich-quick=20 schemes, spam's tawdry reputation means it has a=20 long way to go before it's as accepted and welcome=20 as a Neiman-Marcus or L.L. Bean catalog. But some=20 in the industry claim they are trying. Promo Enterprises in Philadelphia=20 , for one, is a=20 high-profile, up-front company that says=20 "responsible bulk e-mail" has a place in the online=20 world. Its Web site brags not only about the low=20 cost, the high response rate, and the speedy=20 delivery, but also that the responsible direct=20 marketer can sleep a little easier knowing it's=20 also "environmentally friendly. Unlike postal mail=20 and broadcast faxing, no paper is used." Given such compassion for nature's precious=20 resources, what is it about spam that so irritates=20 people? A recent Internet Company report on so- called Postage-Due Marketing=20 points out that in more traditional direct- marketing and advertising, the cost of the=20 advertising is borne solely by the advertiser. In=20 the case of bulk e-mail, however, the cost is=20 shared by both advertiser and consumer. "Some pay=20 hourly charges for information and some pay per=20 message," writes report author Robert Raisich. "But=20 each Internet subscriber pays in some way for the=20 information they receive." "To fully appreciate why Postage-Due Marketing=20 raises the ire of the global Internet community,"=20 he continues, "ask yourself whether you would=20 accept a collect call from a telemarketer or an=20 advertising circular that arrived postage due. Or,=20 if you spent an entire evening consumed with calls=20 from telemarketers while you waited for an=20 important call." However annoying to recipients, spam's appeal to=20 advertisers is undeniable. It offers unprecedented=20 access to an immense Internet audience at=20 exceedingly low cost. If you want to reach half a=20 million people with up to 40 lines of advertising=20 text, Promo Enterprises will charge you $700, a --=20 get this! -- 14,000% savings off the equivalent=20 postal mailing rate of $100,000. Or, if you're on a=20 tight budget, it costs a mere $79 to have a two- line description of your Web site included in a=20 weekly mailing of Web addresses. What sorts of advertisers are using bulk e-mailers=20 like Promo Enterprises to reach out and touch=20 everyone? A recent survey found a tone reminiscent=20 of spam's early days. Some samples: * "E n e r g y !!! Give yourself the potential=20 for the energy you need to fulfill your goals. Find=20 out why over a Quarter Million people believe Super=20 Blue Green(tm) Algae to be a PERFECT FOOD. Hidden=20 within the miracle of this algae lies..." * "STS - GROUND FLOOR in the best pre-paid=20 calling card company. We offer 5 different ways to=20 increase your income and TOTALLY ELIMINATE YOUR=20 LONG DISTANCE PHONE BILLS...." * "A-LIST(tm). This is a very different=20 program, so pay close attention. You can make as=20 much as $160 your first month and $330 residual=20 income every month thereafter with only 6 people=20 total in your network, i.e., you sponsor two who=20 sponsor two each...." So what's changed? The thing that distinguishes a=20 setup like Promo Enterprises from its precursors is=20 this: rather than duck-and-run after flinging their=20 messages into the ether, these bulk e-mailers have=20 created businesses which they hope will be around=20 for the long haul. To prove it, they honor requests=20 to remove your name and address from their mailing=20 lists. Promo simply asks you to send a message to=20 remove@cyber-promo.com. What should you do if you find yourself plagued by=20 spam from an outfit that doesn't tell you how to=20 get off their list? If you're using a commercial online service like=20 America Online, CompuServe, Microsoft Network, or=20 Prodigy, you can forward a copy of the message to=20 your postmaster asking that unsolicited mail from=20 the outfit be stopped. Postmaster@aol.com, for=20 instance, replies to complaints about bulk e-mail=20 with detailed instructions on how to get off the=20 list. In addition, the net-abuse-faq posted to the=20 Internet newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.misc=20 (devoted to the=20 discussion of various forms of Internet abuse)=20 suggests that "you can always complain about=20 unsolicited e-mail to both the bozo that sent it to=20 you and the bozo's postmaster. To write to a=20 postmaster, just substitute 'postmaster' for the=20 perp's username in their address (e.g., change=20 bozo@otherwise.lovely.com to=20 postmaster@otherwise.lovely.com). Make sure you are=20 brief and polite with postmasters, include a copy=20 of the e-mail you received, and leave the subject- line intact (in case the postmaster wants to set up=20 an auto-responder)."=20 Finally, where do these guys get their gigantic=20 lists of e-mail addresses in the first place?=20 Answer: all over -- newsgroup posts, chat rooms,=20 Internet directories, bulletin boards, and mailing=20 lists (MONEY Daily, for the record, has done its=20 best to ensure the security of its Internet mailing=20 list by disabling the command that would normally=20 generate a list of subscribers).=20 E-mail's relatively new-found popularity means that=20 the rules haven=B9t been agreed upon or formalized.=20 This will ultimately have to change, much the way=20 the flow of junk faxes slowed as laws were passed=20 to control unsolicited fax advertisements. For now,=20 the only way to keep an e-mail address truly safe=20 is 1) not to disclose it anywhere and 2) never use=20 it. In other words, if you're going to interact=20 online, expect to taste a little spam. For further web-formation, visit: Blacklist of Internet Advertisers news.admin.net-abuse.misc Postage-Due Marketing, an Internet Company White=20 Paper by Robert Raisch =20 Marketwatch for Tuesday, February 6, 1996 Dow Jones Industrial Average: up 52.02 to 5459.61 New York Stock Exchange Advances: 1390 Declines: 938 Volume: 469 million shares NASDAQ Composite: up 5.74 to 1089.08 S&P 500 Index: up 4.90 to 646.33 30-year Treasury bond yield: down 1 basis point to=20 6.13% London gold (afternoon fix): down $2.50 to $412.30 ------------------ SHARE YOUR OPINION ------------------ Check out discussions of topics in the Daily on=20 MONEY Online's bulletin board: http://www.pathfinder.com/boards/0003/ In addition, comments may be sent to Kevin McKean=20 or to Doug Dundas=20 . =20 ------------------------ SUBSCRIPTION INFORMATION ------------------------ TO ADD YOUR NAME TO THE MAILING LIST for Money=20 Daily, use any browser to reach the latest edition=20 on the Web at http://pathfinder.com/money/moneydaily/latest.html and click on the subscribe hotlink. Alternatively,=20 you may send an e-mail to this address: listproc@pathfinder.com It doesn't matter what the subject field of the=20 message says, but the body of the message should say=20 only: subscribe moneydaily Your Name For example, subscribe moneydaily Judy Doe The mailing program will automatically add your e-mail=20 address to the list. TO REMOVE YOUR NAME FROM THE MAILING LIST, point your=20 browser to http://pathfinder.com/money/moneydaily/unsubscribe.html Or you can send an e-mail to listproc@pathfinder.com. It=20 doesn't matter what the subject field of the message says, but=20 the body of the message should say only: unsubscribe moneydaily The mailing program will automatically remove your=20 e-mail address from the list. Thanks for signing up for the Money Daily! From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 20:24:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA23649 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from bottom.MTS.Net (top.mts.net [205.200.16.65]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA23631; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.112.33.145] (DialPort06.TKM.MB.CA [204.112.33.145]) by bottom.MTS.Net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id TAA26056; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:50:41 -0600 Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:50:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199602080150.TAA26056@bottom.MTS.Net> X-Sender: cory@mailhub.mts.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cory@MTS.Net (Cory Lewis) Subject: seeking sport list managers Cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At my request my service provider has just created several closed lists related to basketball, ice hockey, international football (soccer), and baseball. Now I am seeking a few people with sufficient knowledge of, and experience managing, mail lists to manage these lists. I am certain the requirements of this role exceed my abilities. The only compensation offered is membership in the closed list or lists managed. These are majordomo lists. If you may be interested in serving as the manager of one or more of these lists please contact me through my private address of cory@mts.net Due to probable formating problems please do not forward an entire resume. However a brief description of your knowledge and experience relating to managing mail lists, a personal history including your interest in the relevant sport, and two character references would be helpful. Thank you for your attention to this inquiry. Cory Lewis cory@mts.net From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 20:38:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA26909 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA26896 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA03967; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:36:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199602080436.WAA03967@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Class assignments revisited... To: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:36:28 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Mickey Rowe said... | |What I'd like to know is: what can we do to advertise to potential |instructors that they shouldn't create such assignments? Surely there are journals and/or societies we can write to, explaining the problem. Meanwhile, perhaps we can start hitting the offending schools, and explaining *as a group* why this is not a good idea. Very politely showing them how it feels. Also, if they don't respond *immediately* with an apology and calling it off, we can call as well as email their departments, and move up the food chain as necessary. We really need a good analogy. "It's like telling a bumch of people the prof doesn't know to stop by and use the prof's flower beds a s a bathroom." Something to make the point. -Miles From list-managers-owner Wed Feb 7 20:53:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA27062 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA27044 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 20:38:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA04006; Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:38:29 -0600 Message-Id: <199602080438.WAA04006@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Class assignments revisited... To: paulh@hamjudo.com (Paul Haas) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:38:29 -0600 (CST) Cc: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu, List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Paul Haas" at Feb 7, 96 02:45:17 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As part of the long term solutrion, suggest that profs get their CS people to set up lists for them, and keep the whole thing inhouse. Then once they understand the basics, they can decide for themselves whether they want to actually participate in any real world lists. From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 10:14:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA20956 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA20951 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id KAA01455 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:59:41 -0700 From: Lazlo Nibble Message-Id: <199602091759.KAA01455@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: pobox.com? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 10:59:41 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Can anyone here suggest a commerical provider that's a good place to host mailing lists from? I don't need (or want to pay for) a conventional internet access account on a machine -- I just need a site that can host lists, preferably with majordomo, for a reasonable price. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 17:39:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA14862 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:32:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tango.rahul.net (tango.rahul.net [192.160.13.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA14828 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:32:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolero.rahul.net by tango.rahul.net with SMTP id AA18725 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:55 -0800 Received: from jive.rahul.net by bolero.rahul.net with SMTP id AA29398 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:54 -0800 From: Steve Portigal Received: by jive.rahul.net (5.67b8/jive-a2i-1.0) id AA16407; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199602100131.AA16407@jive.rahul.net> Subject: Yet another forged subscription To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 17:31:50 -0800 (PST) Organization: GVO - Interface Design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From jlagator@grove.ufl.edu Thu Feb 8 22:37:40 1996 Return-Path: Received: from leonardo.lls.se by tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca (NX5.67d/NX3.0M) id AA05499; Thu, 8 Feb 96 22:37:40 -0500 Received: from a (sefl.satelnet.org [204.157.227.55]) by leonardo.lls.se (8.6.11/iko.1.0) with SMTP id EAA27583 for undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 04:33:03 +0100 Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 04:33:03 +0100 From: jlagator@grove.ufl.edu Message-Id: <199602090333.EAA27583@leonardo.lls.se> Apparently-To: undercover-request@tempest.cis.uoguelph.ca Status: R subscribe From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 20:54:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA20519 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:39:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA20514 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:39:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.0.2.1] by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id UAA26173; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 20:38:14 -0800 X-Sender: outings@netcom3.netcom.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:40:49 -0700 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: outings@netcom.com (Steve Outing) Subject: More forged subscriptions Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's another batch of forged subscriptions that just came into my lists tonight. (sigh) senate house heymtv kuppe That last one is interesting (assuming that I'm right and it's a forgery). bvsd is Boulder Valley School District in Boulder, Colorado, where I happen to live. A clue to identity of our mysterious pranksters, perhaps? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Outing Planetary News LLC outings@netcom.com Boulder, Colorado, USA owner-online-newspapers@marketplace.com voice: 303-543-7810 owner-online-news@marketplace.com fax/voice: 303-543-8550 Consulting services for the newspaper new media industry ---Read my Stop The Presses! column: http://www.mediainfo.com/ep/stop.htm--- From list-managers-owner Fri Feb 9 23:23:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA28368 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from vger.tripcom.com (vger.tripcom.com [198.5.220.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA28347 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 1996 23:12:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.tripcom.com id BAA16968 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 01:11:25 -0600 From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199602100711.BAA16968@vger.tripcom.com> Subject: Subscription from "your_email_address" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 01:11:22 -0600 (CST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here's a subscription problem I haven't seen discussed... I hope it brightens your day. Forwarded message: > From Majordomo-Owner@Tripcom.com Sat Feb 10 00:49:05 1996 > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 00:49:04 -0600 > Message-Id: <199602100649.AAA16313@vger.tripcom.com> > To: triplets-digest-approval > From: Majordomo@Tripcom.com > Subject: SUBSCRIBE triplets-digest > Reply-To: Majordomo@Tripcom.com > > -- > > your_email_address@ornl.gov has been added to triplets-digest. > No action is required on your part. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.com From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 04:24:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA11054 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA11049 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id EAA02567; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 04:17:01 -0800 Received: from relay-4.mail.demon.net(158.152.1.108) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma002564; Sat Feb 10 04:16:30 1996 Received: from post.demon.co.uk ([158.152.1.72]) by relay-4.mail.demon.net id at16585; 10 Feb 96 12:17 GMT Received: from bclimser.demon.co.uk ([158.152.80.60]) by relay-3.mail.demon.net id aa10479; 10 Feb 96 12:07 GMT From: Sanwar Ali Organization: BCL Immigration Services To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 11:47:53 +0000 Subject: Recommendations for Web-Site - Archive for New List Reply-to: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Message-ID: <823954029.10479.0@bclimser.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi I am setting up a new list. I have found a server for the list. However, I would also like to have a Web-Site for the list and for other material. Has anybody got recommendations for: 1. A reasonably priced Web Site; I probably dont need more than 1 MB at the moment but it will probably increase rapidly over the year. 2. Excellent access World-Wide. I have heard horror stories of delays in access or no access at all. 3. My list will be on pobox. I wonder how people have found their Web space services. Any help would be much appreciated. BTW, ignore the http add at the bottom of my sig! All the best. -- Sanwar Ali Managing Partner BCL Immigration Services Acorn House 74-94 Cherry Orchard Road Croydon, Surrey CR0 6BA, UK. Telephone: +44 181 680 9621 or +44 181 681 8339 Fax: +44 181 667 0378 e-mail: sanwar@bclimser.demon.co.uk, sanwar@pobox.com WWW: http://www.algroup.co.uk/wpb/bcl From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 18:00:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA09481 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.usa.net (earth.usa.net [192.156.196.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA09461 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 17:47:52 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jdebruyn@localhost) by earth.usa.net (8.6.10/8.6.10) id SAA15149 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:47:09 -0700 From: John Debruyn Reply-To: John Debruyn Message-Id: <199602110147.SAA15149@earth.usa.net> Subject: How large can a list get To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 18:47:09 -0700 (MST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi: I started with majordomo back with version 1.2 something, which was really a wonderful improvement over the manual list set up I began with where the owner edited the list manually. Following this list has been a great help. I am working with a new set of lists where they may evolve into several thousand subscribers. I would like to know how large (long) a list is currently being supported by Majordomo. The Webcom site which got out of the server business was unable to maintain a list that got up to about 2,000 subscribers. I am hoping that was an abberation. Thanks, John -- John DeBruyn, Denver, Colorado, The Mile High City, USA (jdebruyn@usa.net) -- John DeBruyn, Denver, Colorado, The Mile High City, USA (jdebruyn@usa.net) From list-managers-owner Sat Feb 10 21:39:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA17330 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:26:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol.wvs.com (sol.wvs.com [204.247.80.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA17325 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by sol.wvs.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA16641; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 21:24:09 -0800 Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id UAA14152 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 10 Feb 1996 20:26:07 -0800 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Stand-alone subsub filter? Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-Id: X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 04:26:04 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a stand-alone (i.e. not part of a package) filter that checks that submissions are from subscribers? My lists got Krazy Kevined today, and I want to prevent a repeat. Thanks, \scott From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 04:39:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA03640 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 04:31:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from merlion.singnet.com.sg (merlion.singnet.com.sg [165.21.1.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA03635 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 04:30:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from edmonds@localhost) by merlion.singnet.com.sg (8.6.12/8.6.11) id UAA06212; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:30:08 +0800 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:30:07 +0800 (SST) From: Edmonds Subject: Pobox com To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199602110900.BAA25476@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk 'lo all, I have a list, BloodQuill, on pobox.com and I found them to be excellant if you don't have access to a server or want to be very technoid over things. It cost me $50 US for the year, with no limit on memebrship - though they did stay if it did get subjectively speaking too much, which would be a hundred plus messages a day I'd guess, they'd have to reajust the price. It's majordomo and there's a web interface which I find handy for doing admin things all at once instead of through commands in emails. Enough tweaking of options, closed, private, limits etc, and all in all simple enough. I rang Pobox in the middle of the night (time zones) once and the kind of groggy guy on the other side was helpful after he woke up . Hope that helps, be happy to answer any other questions. They were the only commercial list providor I cam across when I set it up, Decmeber 1995. Now I'm about to set up my own server offering mailing lists and stuff, and I'm pretty sure if you did a search you'd be able to find some other places. Still, pobox seem fairly stable and nice. Dale Edmonds whale@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~whale (mail redirection thing. Very useful) From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 10:58:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA11538 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 10:47:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from chardonnay.niagara.com (chardonnay.niagara.com [204.97.192.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA11533 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 10:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.97.192.121] by chardonnay.niagara.com via SMTP (950911.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH825/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) for id NAA14967; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:46:16 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:46:16 -0500 X-Sender: selene@chardonnay.niagara.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: selene@niagara.com (Rowan Shirkie) Subject: Bad news -- E-cards from Heineken Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Some misguided person sent my entire mailing list an "e-card" from the Heineken World Wide Web server in the Netherlands. A silly .gif file with a message. The Heineken site seems set up so you that you cannot contact the webmaster or anyone at Heineken -- but visitors can fling messages/graphics files to any e-mail address. (Most of the postcard sites I've seen send a simple text notice that you follow up (or not) by visiting the WW site to see the message.) I did try to contact "postmaster@Heineken.nl" and "Heineke3@www.Heineken.com" saying that this was a BAD IDEA and was creating another set of net pests. Anyone here have a similar list experience? Or have any other suggestions on how to deal with this? If this technique proliferates, blocking originating addresses one-by-one in Majordomo seems futile. >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:52:26 GMT >From: Heineke3@www.Heineken.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: E-card from Gilbert.v.Houten@inter.nl.net [SNIP] > >This card was send to you by Gilbert.v.Houten@inter.nl.net. > >The card has been generated by the Heineken World Wide Web server. >(http://www.Heineken.nl/) > > >Content-Type: image/gif; name="e-card-59578.gif" >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="e-card-59578.gif" >Content-MD5: P6ADyMwIpzm5+dnsDZCOsg== ============================ Rowan Shirkie-Selene Communications [ selene@niagara.com | VOX: + 905.687.9805 | s-mail: 12 - 111 Fourth Avenue, Suite 200 | St. Catharines, ON, Canada L2S 3P5 ] From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 12:13:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA12973 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from outsider.bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA12968; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:58:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by outsider.bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA04365; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:51:30 -0800 Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0tlhfE-000UpoC; Sun, 11 Feb 96 11:42 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: John Debruyn , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:45:03 -800 Subject: Re: How large can a list get CC: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 10 Feb 96 at 18:47, John Debruyn wrote: > I am working with a new set of lists where they may evolve into several > thousand subscribers. I would like to know how large (long) a list is > currently being supported by Majordomo. The Webcom site which got out > of the server business was unable to maintain a list that got up to about > 2,000 subscribers. I am hoping that was an abberation. This conversation perhaps should move to "majordomo-users", although the performance issues overlap with other list mgmt software. The maximum size of a Majordomo list depends on machine load. That comes from two factors: how much work it is for Majordomo to add and remove people from the list, and how much work it is for your mail transport to deliver the messages. In all the cases I've heard discussed, the first part (subscriptions) aren't usually the problem; it's usually delivery that's the problem. Majordomo doesn't actually deliver messages; sendmail (or whatever you have for a mailer) does. So the performance issues for Majordomo lists are the same for manually-administered lists or any that depend on the system mailer. There are a number of ways to deal with this: - Go to a daily digest. One message a day instead of dozens. - Get the latest sendmail. Connection caching and related new features help performance. - Sort your list by domain. This can help take advantage of any optimizations in the mailer. - Queue your messages instead of delivering immediately. It may not speed up delivery, but it helps system load. - Break your list into smaller chunks which can be processed independently. I know of some large lists that are administered by hand because of the need to split them, but there are a number of things you can do to automate it. (ObSendmail: "smail" can set a maximum number of addresses per message; I can't find a corresponding setting in sendmail. Anyone know?) - Use bulk_mailer. It splits the list into chunks and sorts by domain. - Use more than one machine. I run Majordomo proper one one machine and do actual delivery on another. Some people split their lists across multiple delivery machines. All that having been said, I don't have any 2000-member lists myself. Anyone else care to comment on actual use? - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.SF-Bay.org System Administrator http://www.bolis.com Batteries not included. From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 12:57:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA14004 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 12:39:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com [205.186.43.254]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA13999 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 12:39:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199602112039.MAA13999@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 9695; Sun, 11 Feb 96 15:38:53 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 6546; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:38:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 15:27:54 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: How large can a list get To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM cc: majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:45:03 -800 from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 11 Feb 1996 11:45:03 -800 Alan Millar said: >The maximum size of a Majordomo list depends on machine load. That comes >from two factors: how much work it is for Majordomo to add and remove >people from the list, and how much work it is for your mail transport to >deliver the messages. > >In all the cases I've heard discussed, the first part (subscriptions) >aren't usually the problem; it's usually delivery that's the problem. This isn't necessarily true. Try the following experiment: 1. Create a dummy list with 1,000 subscribers (dummy addresses are fine), and, while your system is otherwise idle, send 10 SIGNOFF requests from addresses near the middle of the list. This will measure the impact on Majordomo of 1% of the subscribers deciding to leave the list shortly after a posting (large lists are very often announcement lists, so users may not know what the contents will be until they get their first posting). Incidentally, 1% is a very conservative estimate. 2. Create a dummy list with 10,000 subscribers and submit 100 SIGNOFF requests. 3. Create a dummy list with 100,000 subscribers and send 1,000 SIGNOFF requests. For test #3, you will want to save any open editor window, notify users, etc. Your system may or may not survive the experiment :-) Eric From list-managers-owner Sun Feb 11 13:39:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA14748 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:32:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ruby.ora.com (ruby.ora.com [198.112.208.25]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA14743 for ; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:32:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jerry@localhost) by ruby.ora.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id NAA15809; Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:31:53 -0800 Message-Id: <199602112131.NAA15809@ruby.ora.com> From: Jerry Peek Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 13:31:53 EST In-Reply-To: selene@niagara.com (Rowan Shirkie) "Bad news -- E-cards from Heineken" (Feb 11, 13:46) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.0 10/31/90) To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Bad news -- E-cards from Heineken Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Feb 11, 13:46, Rowan Shirkie wrote: } Some misguided person sent my entire mailing list an "e-card" from the } Heineken World Wide Web server in the Netherlands. A silly .gif file with a } message. ... } If this technique proliferates, blocking } originating addresses one-by-one in Majordomo seems futile. Has anyone set up Majordomo or other MLMs to route messages with certain MIME contents to the list owner for approval? For instance, this message has really suspicious headers (in this case, in a body part): } >Content-Type: image/gif; name="e-card-59578.gif" } >Content-Disposition: inline; filename="e-card-59578.gif" You could also search for big chunks of text without much whitespace -- like base64 or uuencoded text. --Jerry Peek, jerry@ora.com From list-managers-owner Mon Feb 12 15:09:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA06179 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (LEPOMIS.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU [130.91.68.34]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA06174 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22898; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:00:58 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 18:00:58 -0500 From: rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe) Message-Id: <9602122300.AA22898@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: scooby.pubnix.org Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk WRT my previous message about the spammer who created his own list by acquiring my list's subscribers: I've now been in contact with the postmaster at scooby.pubnix.com and he's assured me that he's removing merc@scooby's privileges on that machine. If merc@scooby.pubnix.org is on any of your mailing lists, you should remove him. -- Mickey Rowe (rowe@lepomis.psych.upenn.edu) From list-managers-owner Tue Feb 13 10:10:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA14988 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:31:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal.nes.com (hal.nes.com [205.153.28.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA14983 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:31:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by hal.nes.com with VINES-ISMTP; Tue, 13 Feb 96 12:31:10 EST Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 12:31:12 EST Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: From: (Philip Kubat) Subject: Auto replys Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have question in reguard how mailing list should or do handle reply/returned mail. We are changin