From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 1 08:44:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA17858 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:26:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from voicenet.com (mail.voicenet.com [192.204.28.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA17852 for ; Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:25:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omni.voicenet.com.voicenet.com (westchester02.voicenet.com) by voicenet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17649; Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:24:15 EST Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 11:24:14 EST Message-Id: <9603011624.AA17649@voicenet.com> X-Sender: emily@voicenet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: emily@DDRinc.com (Emily R. Myers) Subject: Posting by thread? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Is there a program which can organizae digests by thread rather grouping messages by date? Thanks. Emily Emily R. Myers Decision Design Research, Inc. 610.388.1274 fax 610.388.0555 http://www.DDRinc.com emily@DDRinc.com From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 19:00:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA01452 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:52:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA01447 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:52:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA01581; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:51:19 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 21:46:16 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: correction... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The mail you sent could not be delivered to: 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 19:45:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA02677 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA02670 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id WAA01423 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:44 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id WAA25977; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:37:40 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Project Genesis wrote: > The mail you sent could not be delivered to: > 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user > 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user > > So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. > Yup, they're out again. btw, Newt subbed to a couple of my lists today...or rather his district did. It was nice booting him off. Too bad it isn't that easy in real life... Jason From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:00:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA03104 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom16.netcom.com (netcom16.netcom.com [192.100.81.129]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA03095 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:54:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id TAA14459; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:51:47 -0800 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:51:46 -0800 (PST) From: James Cook Subject: Re: correction... To: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Learn to suffer what you hate wrote: > On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Project Genesis wrote: > > > The mail you sent could not be delivered to: > > 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user > > 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user > > > > So you're likely to know if you've been hit pretty soon. > > > Yup, they're out again. > Anyone also being hit with a series of subs from: Vice Pres. / White House First.Lady / xxx@blacklisted..... etc.????? From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:14:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA03319 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA03312 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:59:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA10145; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:00:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199603040400.WAA10145@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: correction... To: jgreshes@netaxs.com (Learn to suffer what you hate) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:00:03 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Learn to suffer what you hate said... | |btw, Newt subbed to a couple of my lists today...or rather his district |did. It was nice booting him off. Too bad it isn't that easy in real |life... Ditto for the Prez, VP & 1st Lady. Someone will probably end up with the SS confiscating their access.... -Miles "Secret Service confiscates Internet. Film at 11." From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 20:15:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA03729 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:04:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA03715 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:04:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id XAA04068 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:15 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id XAA26890; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:07 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:03:55 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960304024616.006de018@j51.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk just had the following mass sub: letters@blacklisted411.com first.lady@whitehouse.gov pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu georgia6@hr.house.gov vice-president@whitehouse.gov baz@liquidsky.com 76326.126@compuserve.com emanual@2600.com please@netcom.com pather.modern@liquidsky.com 71511.260@compuserve.com president@whitehouse.gov markoff@nyt.com letters@2600.com articles@2600.com zachary@blacklisted411.com alexander@blacklisted411.com hanford@oswego.edu conartistr@aol.com 70277.250@compuserve.com gene@aol.com Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the file with list/password, and away we go? (no access to the subscriber lists on my system) I don't know about anyone else, but this is about the last straw. I'm sick of running mail lists. I don't want to hear about the internet. I wish it would just go away. Running these stupid lists takes seemly more time and certainly more annoyance than my job (and I'm an attorney fer christsakes). I'd like to finish my laundry, listen to a cd, and go to sleep, but instead I have this idiocy to worry about. For a few weeks I closed the lists to outside posting and closed subscriptions, and for my troubles got to come home every night to messages from people sending their 14th post in a row from a different account than they were subbed from, sub requests followed by multiple emails from those people asking every hour on the hour if they had been added to the list yet, etc. etc. etc. Fuck it all. Anyone want some extra lists to run? Venting. jason From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 3 21:00:26 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA05233 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA05228 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id EAA05551 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 04:46:49 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304044146.0068c09c@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 23:41:46 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Re: correction... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This was actually from my second message: >> The mail you sent could not be delivered to: >> 550 mtvyak1@aol.com is not a known user >> 550 aollegalstaff@aol.com is not a known user Message #1 either hasn't _yet_ been delivered, or has vanished in CyberSpace. What I said was that I got a whole list of bogus subs - they're still coming in. They're hitting my lists at my former provider, so the lists are all closed and I'm not really getting hit... Just thought I'd warn everyone. Unfortunately I already deleted the other bogus subs, so I hope my first message eventually comes through with the list. The VP just came in, and in message #1 I mentioned that Newt was part of this (georgia6@hr.house.gov). ddevette@executive.com is also bogus. Watch your lists... and can someone track this guy?? Ken From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 14:24:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA16016 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom14.netcom.com (netcom14.netcom.com [192.100.81.126]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA16004 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom14.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id NAA09441; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:51:07 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Design X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 06:21:06 -0800 To: List Managers List From: Dave Del Torto Subject: opportunist knocked off serve.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk FYI, Gang. -dave ................................ cut here ................................ Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:36:11 -0500 From: DRIS Account Manager X-Authentication-Warning: serve.com: bin set sender to accounts@mail.serve.com using -f To: postmaster@LSD.com The account to which you have sent mail, "gwennie@mail.serve.com", has been removed from our server due to irresponsible behavior. We are deeply sorry for any incovenience that this person may have caused you, and ask you to understand that while it is difficult to take preventive measures against such actions, we respond immediately to taking corrective measures. Again, we apologize for the disturbance. This was an automated response, but if you would like to get in touch with us about the matter, please address your comments/questions to: accounts@mail.serve.com -- DataRealm Internet Services, LLC ----------- Your original message is below ---------- Postmaster, Please do something rash and unsporting about this unsolicited spam fom one of your users. Maybe you could start by knocking the weasel around a bit with a book on netiquette. ;) Thanks. ................................ cut here ................................ >From: gwennie@mail.serve.com >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 16:20 EST >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! > > > > FREE AUDIO TAPE - FREE AUDIO TAPE > > 10 REASONS WHY YOU SHOULD REQUEST THIS TAPE > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > > NOVEMBER DECEMBER > MONTHLY EARNINGS > >1 JOHN VALENTY ------------ $17,736 ---------- $22,396 >2 JANET VALENTY ----------- $15,715 ---------- $20,624 >3 TOM ALKAZI --------------- $13,250 ------------$14,875 >4 JERRY JOHNSON ----------- $12,835 ----------- $16,252 >5 RICHARD KUNA -------------- $10,549 ----------- $12,708 >6 LARRY SCHMIDTKE ------- $10,512 ---------- $12,441 >7 BOB SCHMIDTKE ----------- $6,793 ------------ $10,748 >8 DR. DAVID FUNK ------------ $5,525 ------------ $7,943 >9 RANDY CHURCHILL ------- $5,260 ------------- $7,357 >10 DENNIS PRICE ----------------$3,441 ------------ $5,810 > >If you are a bit SKEPTICAL about these incomes, I don't blame you. >Three months ago so was I. Today, I am building a strong alternative >income, with unlimited potential. > >I have been a business owner for the past 25 years. This positive >opportunity creates "CASH FLOW" quickly and is compatible with my >current business. > >I have personally seen INCOMES ranging from $10,000 to $20,000 per month, >created within 120 days. > >I know that sounds ludicrous, as it did to me at first, but I"m glad >that I was "open-minded" enough to listen to the FREE audio tape: > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > >Learn why the average LIFE SPAN of a doctor is only 58 years! > >If you would like to experience a LOW STRESS, Non-confrontational >and $$ Extremely Luctrative $$ income producing opportunity, it's time to >call me. > > REQUEST A FREE COPY OF THIS POWERFUL TAPE! > > "DEAD DOCTORS DON'T LIE" > > Please include your complete name, address and phone number! > > CALL: 800-677-1207 Ext. 1826 or (909) 949-6584 > > E-mail: Reply to gwennie@mail.serve.com > > Fax: Your request to (909) 982-5446 > > "OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS" > From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 16:01:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA20939 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA20842 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:46:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id PAA06149; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:41:10 -0800 Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net(38.8.14.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma006139; Mon Mar 4 15:40:45 1996 Received: from adimail.adiva.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.6.12/SMI-5.4-PSI) id SAA06138; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:39:28 -0500 Received: by adimail.adiva.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22394; Mon, 4 Mar 96 18:32:33 EST Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 18:32:31 -0500 (EST) From: George Pearson X-Sender: george@adimail To: Dave Del Torto Cc: List Managers List Subject: Re: opportunist knocked off serve.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dave- Did you really need to include the entire spam in your message? Or is this just a covert spam in disguise!? ;-) - george From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 22:45:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05647 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05542 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix3.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix3.netaxs.com [207.8.186.5]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id AAA09810 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:25 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix3.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.9) id AAA28202; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:22 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 00:04:19 -0500 (EST) From: Learn to suffer what you hate To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Now this is am amazing. The system I'm on, eskimo.com, has always been slow to respond to anything to do with the lists ( they don't charge extra for them, so that's understandable ) automatically unsubbed the latest sub spams from every list on the system. Less than an hour after they showed up in the first place. Impressed. Jason From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:15:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05620 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com (j51.com [199.224.7.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA01256 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 18:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from j51.com..com (pm10.j51.com [199.224.7.234]) by j51.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id CAA01188; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 02:42:14 GMT Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960304023713.006e434c@j51.com> X-Sender: genesis@j51.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 21:37:13 -0500 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Project Genesis Subject: Forged subscriptions Cc: Brock Rozen , pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu, sermoner1@aol.com, aollegalstaff@aol.com, chris@delirium.mit.edu, georgia6@hr.house.gov, jcs@enteract.com, mtvyak1@aol.com, jason.peck@sdoct.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A series of subscription requests arrived today with signs of forgery. They came in to our former provider, who is using listproc. listproc requires that the user specify his name, as in: subscribe listname My Name Here All the lists - being at our former provider - are closed with requests bouncing to me, thus I caught the problem. The series all have the userid repeated twice as the given name: pfluger@rocky.oswego.edu - pfluger pfluger sermoner1@aol.com - sermoner1 sermoner1 aollegalstaff@aol.com - aollegalstaff aollegalstaff chris@delirium.mit.edu - chris chris georgia6@hr.house.gov - georgia6 georgia6 jcs@enteract.com - jcs jcs mtvyak1@aol.com - mtvyak1 mtvyak1 jason.peck@sdoct.com - jason.peck jason.peck This began just after 3:30pm this afternoon, and as of this writing (9:38pm Sunday) is still ongoing. I think that all lists at that provider - and perhaps many others - are being hit. jason.peck is merely the latest, but not necessarily the last. While many of these addresses I do not recognize, I assume aollegal is a real address, and georgia6, as I recall, is the Speaker of the House. Neither, I assume, has much interest in my lists. Ken Menken From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:19:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA05659 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 22:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA05532 for ; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:04:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id XAA10372; Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199603040504.XAA10372@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: correction... To: jgreshes@netaxs.com (Learn to suffer what you hate) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:04:49 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Learn to suffer what you hate" said... |Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names |through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need |to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the |file with list/password, and away we go? (no access to the subscriber |lists on my system) In vi (my mail editor) I would go to the top of the 21 lines and type: :s.,.+20s/^/approve PASSWORD unsubscribe LIST / and that would be that. A sed script would use the same thing w/o the ":" and range, as in sed -e 's/^/approve PASSWORD unsubscribe LIST /' < in-file > out-file |For a few weeks I closed the lists to outside posting and closed |subscriptions, and for my troubles got to come home every night to |messages from people sending their 14th post in a row from a different |account than they were subbed from, sub requests followed by multiple |emails from those people asking every hour on the hour if they had been |added to the list yet, etc. etc. etc. Unless you get a lot of real subscriptions, just close the subscriptions. Spams are usually pretty obvious. Then, just add the subscribers as they come in. Closing the posting is a pain. I ultimately expect to have to do that, in which case I will set up the list of posters to be basicly the list of subscribers. Majordomo has an option that lets you allow someone from a domain as opposed to a system in a domain. I haven't tried it, but that's what I plan to use. Of course, my list is fairly constant in terms of members. A list with high sub volume could still be a pain, and you would have to let people know that they would have to wait a day or so. Personally, I'd be willing to sign on an action against schmoes like this - from a nuisance complaint (in a case like this) to a class action suit for real money (for a really obnoxious spamming like Castor Oil & Smeagol). I think a few well-publicized things like that would cut down on this garbage a lot. -Miles From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 4 23:51:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA10265 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 23:39:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gatekeeper.ray.com (gatekeeper.ray.com [138.125.162.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA29563 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:41:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (mailer@localhost) by gatekeeper.ray.com (8.6.4/8.6.5) id LAA00649; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:39:30 -0500 Received: from rayssd.ssd.ray.com by gatekeeper.ray.com; Mon Mar 4 11:38:23 1996 Received: from fluke.ssd.ray.com (fluke.ssd.ray.com [138.125.192.34]) by rayssd.ssd.ray.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA29263; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:30 -0500 Received: (dhb@localhost) by fluke.ssd.ray.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id LAA25684; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:38:28 -0500 (EST) From: "David H. Brierley" To: Learn to suffer what you hate cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: correction... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Learn to suffer what you hate wrote: > Now does anyone have a nice sed script or whatever I can pass these names > through to generate the unsub message/password majordomo command I need > to unsub all these ids? Like a nice little here's the names, here's the The following is a litlle shell script that takes two arguments, the name of the list and the username. It then looks up the password and the majordomo email address in a file called .majordomo in your home directory. Each line of the .majordomo file consists of three entries; the list name, the password, and the majordomo email address. It's not a really complicated script but it certainly is a handy little thing. ----- cut here for "unsub" ----- #!/bin/sh PW=`awk '$1 == list {print $2}' list="$1" $HOME/.majordomo` MD=`awk '$1 == list {print $3}' list="$1" $HOME/.majordomo` if test "${PW}" = "" -o "${MD}" = "" then echo "Could not get password and/or email address for list $1" exit 1 fi echo "approve ${PW} unsubscribe ${1} ${2}" | mail ${MD} exit 0 -- David H. Brierley Raytheon Electronic Systems - Portsmouth RI Facility Work: dhb@ssd.ray.com Home: dave@galaxia.network23.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 07:02:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA05537 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 06:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA05520 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 06:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA21891 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:56:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199603051456.IAA21891@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:56:24 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't have the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. I have a several different auto {list} server packages like majordomo and netlib. None work or work well with this format message. I'd like to have a canned reply that I can just bounce back to these poor souls using this stuff. In a few cases, the lusers got rather upset in that they couldn't get access to the services provided even though they did get a reply stating the EXACT format their input message needed to be. They didn't know how to create such a message. There seems to be a growing number of these people out there. Thanks --Gene ------- Forwarded Message Received: from news2.swip.net (news2.swip.net [192.71.220.18]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA21242 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:24:14 -0600 Received: from gatekeeper.vv.se (gatekeeper.vv.se [193.181.57.1]) by news2.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07480 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:23:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate.vv.se by gatekeeper.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jan95-0239PM) id AA13263; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:36:53 +0100 Received: from obro-exchange.ore.vv.se by mailgate.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Jan95-0504PM) id AA02724; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:25:28 +0100 Received: by obro-exchange.ore.vv.se with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BB0AA7.505785F0@obro-exchange.ore.vv.se>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:40 +0100 Message-Id: From: Axelsson Anders ASA To: "'Majordomo@mcs.anl.gov'" Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lists end - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IikOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQmAAQAhAAAAQjlBNjZCNTE5MDcyQ0YxMTg4NzIwMDAwQzA3MEJC QTQA+QYBIIADAA4AAADMBwMABQAPABQAJwACACcBAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAUADwAUACcAAgAnAQEN gAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBIABAAEAAAAAAAABA5AGAIABAAASAAAAQAA5AEAWH+6eCrsBHgBwAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7Cp9iRVFrprpykBHPiHIAAMBwu6QAAAMABhA//IpYAwAHEAgA AAAeAAgQAQAAAAkAAABMSVNUU0VORAAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACJAAAAhQAA AAkBAABMWkZ1sUvGXf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQDxhTFfQqAiwjPCdk7Fz8yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwNU8UUAsKFFEL 8SBsBAB0tnMKhQnwZAqFFmEAHYAAAAADADYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACMAAAAAAEAA BzAA1Sf8ngq7AUAACDAQjx3ungq7AQMADTT9PwAAAgEUNAEAAAAQAAAAVJShwCl/EBulhwgAKyol Fx4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAB5Sg== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0-- ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 08:31:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA07782 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rubble.west.ora.com (rubble.west.ora.com [198.112.209.191]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07777 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost.west.ora.com by rubble.west.ora.com (4.1/SMI-4.1+JP-2.5) id AA00683; Tue, 5 Mar 96 07:36:11 PST From: Jerry Peek X-Mailer: MH 6.8.3 To: Gene Rackow Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM, goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: <199603051456.IAA21891@antares.mcs.anl.gov> In-Reply-To: Message from (Gene Rackow ) of "Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:56:24 -0600." Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 07:36:05 -0800 Message-Id: <682.826040165@rubble.west.ora.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell > people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it > does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't used Exchange either) but it seems OK. --Jerry, jerry@ora.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) Newsgroups: comp.mail.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.apps.winsock.mail Subject: Re: What is WINMAIL.DAT? Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:32:05 GMT Organization: Angry Greycat Designs Message-ID: <4egth5$1pc_001@news.halcyon.com> WINMAIL.DAT, and how to make it disappear: see http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf ... Q: When I send mail to an Internet mailing list, its members complain that my messages contain big binary attachments. What's happening? How can I get rid of these? A: Those attachments contain Exchange's rich text information, encoding attributes of the message such as boldface, underlining, fonts, and colors. Exchange/Internet Mail puts these attributes into an attachment so that they can appear to other Exchange users on the Internet. The problem arises when people not using Exchange receive these attachments: instead of seeing a formatted message, they see a big chunk of UUENCODE data named WINMAIL.DAT if you're using UUENCODE, or a section application/ms-tnef if you're using MIME, each full of encoded data. For communicating with users of other clients, Exchange contains an option to suppress sending rich text information when mailing them. If you double-click on an underlined recipient (the underline means that Exchange has recognized the name, and associated an address with it) in the To or Cc fields on the message form, and you're using the Internet Mail provider, you'll see a check box labeled Send to this recipient in Microsoft rich text format. Always clear this check box if you suspect that your recipient isn't using Exchange. If this flag is clear for every recipient on a message, Exchange/Internet Mail will strip the rich text information when it sends it, eliminating the mysterious binary attachments. Note however that if the message has multiple recipients, and any one of them has the flag set, Exchange will include the rich text attachments in the message, which all recipients will receive, regardless of their particular flag setting. Whether this flag initially appears set or not depends on the origin of that underlined name. If you got the name by typing a literal name@domain.xxx SMTP address, the check box will be clear by default. If you got it by specifying a SMTP one-off - i.e. by typing [SMTP:name@domain.xxx] - it will be set by default. If you got it by typing a name and letting the system pick it from your Personal Address Book, it will have whatever value you have set on the name in your PAB. Finally, here's the tricky part: if you got it by giving the reply command in Exchange, Exchange guesses as to whether this should be set or not, and when replying to Internet mailing lists, it always seems to guess wrong. You can see this by reading a mailing list message in Exchange, giving the reply command, then double-clicking on the recipient you see in the To field of the note form, and there checking the setting of the rich text check box. You can work around this either by replacing the reply address with an entry from your PAB that you know has rich text disabled, or else by always manually clearing the check box as needed. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 10:01:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA13569 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [198.137.231.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA13548 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com by halcyon.com with SMTP id AA10789 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:17:56 -0800 Received: by blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:21 -0800 Message-Id: <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com> From: Ben Goetter To: Gene Rackow , "'Jerry Peek'" Cc: "'List Managers List'" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:20 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have two notes that you may find useful to this end. http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf describes the winmail.dat or application/ms-tnef block. http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#quotedprintable describes the soft cr characters that may appear in the message plaintext. If you use either of these as a boilerplate response, please continue to include the URL of their source, so that readers can track changes that I make in each item. Thanks. Ben ---------- From: Jerry Peek[SMTP:jerry@ora.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 7:36 AM To: Gene Rackow Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; Ben Goetter Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell > people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it > does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't used Exchange either) but it seems OK. --Jerry, jerry@ora.com [article removed] From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 15:31:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA03463 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:27:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA03458 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:27:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:38 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199603052325.1921.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <01BB0A75.65A0A9A0@blv-pm12-ip23.halcyon.com> (message from Ben Goetter on Tue, 5 Mar 1996 09:23:20 -0800) Subject: CC:Mail attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While we're on the subject of broken mailers... One of the members on a list I run is using some CC:Mail stuff, and he's emitting messages that look like this: === begins === [Normal head, except the old Re[n]: convention in Subject instead of just Re:] [Normal body] [Text in message replied to, with no marking or delimter in between] The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE program. --------------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------- begin 644 RFC822.TXT M4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT@2UF:65L9'-`:69I ;+G5I;RYN;PT*4')E8V5D96YC93H@8G5L:PT* end === ends === If you uudecode it, you get the headers of the message s/he replied to. Discussions with the user indicates that he's able to remove the included text, but not the uuencoded headers. Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 18:12:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA10530 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:56:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA10525 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0AD6.EE9916F0@big486.ed-com.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:01:32 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:01:26 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's just filter it out. Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the 90's! Ed Woodrick EDCOM >---------- >From: Jerry Peek[SMTP:jerry@ora.com] >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 10:36 AM >To: Gene Rackow >Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM; goetter@halcyon.com >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >On 5 March, Gene Rackow wrote: >> Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell >> people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it >> does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. > >I've thought about putting a filter in front of lists that catches >these messages and either bounces them back to the sender (with >instructions), forwards them to the list owner, or filters out the >plain text. I never got around to it. Here's a message I have, >though, with some info. I don't know if this is all correct (I haven't >used Exchange either) but it seems OK. > >--Jerry, jerry@ora.com > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: goetter@halcyon.com (Ben Goetter) >Newsgroups: comp.mail.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.apps.winsock.mail >Subject: Re: What is WINMAIL.DAT? >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:32:05 GMT >Organization: Angry Greycat Designs >Message-ID: <4egth5$1pc_001@news.halcyon.com> > >WINMAIL.DAT, and how to make it disappear: >see http://www.halcyon.com/goetter/exclifaq.htm#suppressrtf > > ... > >Q: When I send mail to an Internet mailing list, its members complain that >my messages contain big binary attachments. What's happening? How can I >get rid of these? > >A: Those attachments contain Exchange's rich text information, encoding >attributes of the message such as boldface, underlining, fonts, and >colors. Exchange/Internet Mail puts these attributes into an >attachment so that they can appear to other Exchange users on the >Internet. The problem arises when people not using Exchange receive >these attachments: instead of seeing a formatted message, they see a >big chunk of UUENCODE data named WINMAIL.DAT if you're using UUENCODE, >or a section application/ms-tnef if you're using MIME, each full of >encoded data. > >For communicating with users of other clients, Exchange contains an >option to suppress sending rich text information when mailing them. If >you double-click on an underlined recipient (the underline means that >Exchange has recognized the name, and associated an address with it) in >the To or Cc fields on the message form, and you're using the Internet >Mail provider, you'll see a check box labeled Send to this recipient in >Microsoft rich text format. Always clear this check box if you suspect >that your recipient isn't using Exchange. If this flag is clear for >every recipient on a message, Exchange/Internet Mail will strip the >rich text information when it sends it, eliminating the mysterious >binary attachments. Note however that if the message has multiple >recipients, and any one of them has the flag set, Exchange will include >the rich text attachments in the message, which all recipients will >receive, regardless of their particular flag setting. > >Whether this flag initially appears set or not depends on the origin of >that underlined name. If you got the name by typing a literal >name@domain.xxx SMTP address, the check box will be clear by default. >If you got it by specifying a SMTP one-off - i.e. by typing >[SMTP:name@domain.xxx] - it will be set by default. If you got it by >typing a name and letting the system pick it from your Personal Address >Book, it will have whatever value you have set on the name in your PAB. >Finally, here's the tricky part: if you got it by giving the reply >command in Exchange, Exchange guesses as to whether this should be set >or not, and when replying to Internet mailing lists, it always seems to >guess wrong. You can see this by reading a mailing list message in >Exchange, giving the reply command, then double-clicking on the >recipient you see in the To field of the note form, and there checking >the setting of the rich text check box. > >You can work around this either by replacing the reply address with an >entry from your PAB that you know has rich text disabled, or else by >always manually clearing the check box as needed. > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AD6.EE9C2430-- From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 20:16:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA19855 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:11:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from yuri.microsoft.com (exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.243.48]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA19826 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by yuri.microsoft.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.0.835.0) id <01BB0ACF.AA555E10@yuri.microsoft.com>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:09:31 -0800 Message-ID: From: "David Johnson (Exchange)" To: "'List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM'" , "'Gene Rackow'" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:09:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.835.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The pre-release versions (Beta 2, RC 1, and RC 2) of the Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector used the multipart/mixed Content-Type for all MIME messages, and also included the prolog shown below. As you know, this caused problems for users trying to send commands to list servers like majordomo. This has been changed in the final version. Any messages that contain only a single text body part will be sent using the text/plain Content-Type. There will be no MIME prolog or encapsulation boundaries in the message, so automated software should be able to parse commands without problems. As soon as the release is available, Microsoft will strongly encourage all users to upgrade from the Beta and RC versions. In the meantime, you can tell users that they can turn-off MIME encoding when composing a message by selecting Send Options from the message properties (Properties command on the File menu), and selecting "uuencode" attachment format. The Internet mail POP3 client in the Windows 95 Plus Pack does not have this problem - it uses the text/plain Content-Type for simple text messages. David C. Johnson Program Manager - Exchange Internet Connectivity >---------- >From: Gene Rackow[SMTP:rackow@mcs.anl.gov] >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 1996 6:56 AM >To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM >Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell >people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it >does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't >have >the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. > >I have a several different auto {list} server packages like majordomo >and >netlib. None work or work well with this format message. I'd like to >have >a canned reply that I can just bounce back to these poor souls using >this >stuff. In a few cases, the lusers got rather upset in that they >couldn't get >access to the services provided even though they did get a reply >stating the >EXACT format their input message needed to be. They didn't know how to >create such a message. There seems to be a growing number of these >people >out there. > >Thanks >--Gene > > >------- Forwarded Message > >Received: from news2.swip.net (news2.swip.net [192.71.220.18]) by >antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP > id IAA21242 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:24:14 >-0600 >Received: from gatekeeper.vv.se (gatekeeper.vv.se [193.181.57.1]) > by news2.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP > id PAA07480 for ; > Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:23:34 +0100 (MET) >Received: from mailgate.vv.se by gatekeeper.vv.se; >(5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jan95-0239PM) > id AA13263; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:36:53 +0100 >Received: from obro-exchange.ore.vv.se by mailgate.vv.se; >(5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Jan95-0504PM) > id AA02724; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:25:28 +0100 >Received: by obro-exchange.ore.vv.se with Microsoft Exchange (IMC >4.1.611) > id <01BB0AA7.505785F0@obro-exchange.ore.vv.se>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 >15:20:40 +0100 >Message-Id: > >From: Axelsson Anders ASA >To: "'Majordomo@mcs.anl.gov'" >Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:39 +0100 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version >4.1.611 >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- >=_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0" > >This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not >understand >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact >your >mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a >version >that supports MIME. > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >lists >end > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 >Content-Type: application/ms-tnef >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >eJ8+IikOAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5N >aWNy >b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQmAAQAhAAAAQjlBNjZCNTE5MDcyQ0YxMTg4NzIwMDAwQzA3 >MEJC >QTQA+QYBIIADAA4AAADMBwMABQAPABQAJwACACcBAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcDAAUADwAUACcAAgAn >AQEN >gAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBIABAAEAAAAAAAABA5AGAIABAAASAAAAQAA5AEAWH+6eCrsBHgBwAAEA >AAAB >AAAAAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7Cp9iRVFrprpykBHPiHIAAMBwu6QAAAMABhA//IpYAwAH >EAgA >AAAeAAgQAQAAAAkAAABMSVNUU0VORAAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACJAAAA >hQAA >AAkBAABMWkZ1sUvGXf8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBw >ckJx >EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQDxhTFfQqAiwjPCdk7Fz8yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwNU8UUAsK >FFEL >8SBsBAB0tnMKhQnwZAqFFmEAHYAAAAADADYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACMAAAAA >AEAA >BzAA1Sf8ngq7AUAACDAQjx3ungq7AQMADTT9PwAAAgEUNAEAAAAQAAAAVJShwCl/EBulhwgA >Kyol >Fx4APQABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAB5Sg== > >- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0-- > > >------- End of Forwarded Message > > From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 20:45:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA22454 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA22440 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id UAA25355; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:44:25 -0800 Message-ID: <313D17E6.B05@postmodern.com> Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 20:43:18 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM CC: Ed Woodrick Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick wrote: > What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's > just filter it out. > > Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > > Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the > 90's! Ummm... I think you missed the point. It's not that people object to use of emphasis or other rich text formats _per se_, merely that Microsoft Exchange (and some other PC mailers) encode them in a redundant and non-portable way. For example, the uuencoded WINMAIL.DAT block is (last I looked) not even enclosed in a MIME message-part; it just sits there at the end of a message, and is pretty useless to anyone without the identical mail client unless they want to strip it out, save it by hand to a file, and run a uudecode program on it. What fun. The more recent version seems to put stuff in a MIME message-part of type application/ms-tnef -- which will be correctly recognized as a MIME attachment by MIME-compliant mail readers... and after being recognized is will then be completely useless unless you have a Microsoft-brand mail client. Moving messaging into the '90s means adherence to real platform-independent, application-independent *standards*, not pandering to Microsoft's format-of-the-week. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 5 22:01:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA26765 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA26746 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 21:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id AAA14981; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:00:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199603060600.AAA14981@schoneal.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:00:08 -0600 (CST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 5, 96 09:01:26 pm From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick said... | |What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's |just filter it out. | |Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? | |Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the |90's! By all means, feel free to write the scripts to pull all the mail processors into the 90s. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 04:45:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA20142 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA20137 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 04:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id HAA03562; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:37:42 -0500 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:37:42 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199603061237.HAA03562@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange Cc: ewoodrick@ed-com.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's >just filter it out. > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the >90's! Please allow me to change your perspective just a bit. Why can/should/must we presume that everyone participating in our forums has the same equipment and software? Do you assume that everyone here has a full-blown Internet connection and PCs running Exchange? Further- more, do you assume that those who do not wish to spend their money ac- cepting all of this encoded RTF material, which is useless to them? Until recent years, Internet utilities and services were predicated on the idea that the host system had no idea about the facilities on the client side of the picture; it might be a Cray, or it might be a Radio Shack TRS-80. Neither did the host have any idea of the route taken in the delivery of the data; it might be a TCP/IP connection, it might be a modem, or it might even be magtape! The logical means of transmitting information among such widely disparate systems, along such widely dis- parate transmission paths, is ASCII. Why is this a poor premise? In this particular case, I would hazard a guess that fewer than 10% of the folks with email access also have Mi- crosoft Exchange (or a mailer capable of handling RTF). Why should we expect the other 90% to burn disk space and processing time to pass this stuff around? Why should we expect users who do not have Exchange to waste time and mailbox space on it? There's an old net maxim (which, sadly, seems to have been forgotten by the majority of net users) which applies here: "Be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept." If both sides were to adhere to this maxim, this wouldn't even be a problem, now would it? --Wes From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 05:16:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA21520 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:03:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA21515 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0B34.31A17390@big486.ed-com.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:09:08 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "list-managers@greatcircle.com" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:09:01 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wes, I'm not talking about Exchange, I'm talking about MIME and RTF types of attachments. With rich text messages, different replies can be in color, counting >>>> to figure out who sent what isn't needed anymore. I can emphasize portions of text, I can include pictures and graphs in my messages. I don't use VI to create documents anymore. I use fairly sophisticated word processors. My modem speeds have increased from 300 BPS to 128,000 BPS. I'd like to think that I could use some of this for better looking messages. I'm not saying that everyone in the forum should have the same software, but I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. It's been a standard for awhile now, but POP3 developers not worrying about it yet. But they spend days on creating the prettiest GUI for selecting and reading messages. Doesn't this seem a little weird? I don't want to be stuck with the same standard that I used with my Radio Shack Model 1. I put that machine in the closet years ago. But when it comes to Email, messages look exactly the same. If plain ASCII messages are here to stay, then why was there such an effort to develop the MIME specifications????? If we want to talk network etiquette, then why did you mail a copy of your message direct to me? Is it because your mailer can't do a respond sender only? You probably caused me more transfer time than if the message had been MIME!!! Ed Woodrick >---------- >From: Wes Morgan[SMTP:morgan@engr.uky.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 7:37 AM >To: list-managers@greatcircle.com >Cc: Ed Woodrick >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange > > >Please allow me to change your perspective just a bit. > >--Wes > > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0B34.31A2FA30-- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 05:45:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA23381 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA23359 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 05:36:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA11084; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:34:33 -0600 Message-Id: <199603061334.HAA11084@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Ed Woodrick cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Mar 1996 21:01:26 EST." Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 07:34:33 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not saying that we should toss out the new, but at times I'd like to. In many areas our site is dealing with leading, to the point of bleeding, edge tech. The problem that I see is that the new formats are getting used and abused. There is NO reason that I see when someone is sending a straight ascii text message that it needs to be encapsulated in MIME wrappers. Sending someone a 3 line text message has now become a 10 to 200 line message. When I'm on the end of a dial up connection with my laptop, I really don't want to waste time in downloading crap. I'll toss the challenge back your way then, since you seem to be a fan of non-standards or broken software. (At this point there are more systems NOT following the published standards than doing it correctly, or like many things, if you don't like the existing standards, write your own.) I don't have the time to re-write the automated mail handling packages that have been providing various services to understand all the different "standard" mail formats that are now out there. It would be nice to have something that understood all these packages, but there are alot of problems that need to be addressed in using them via automated systems. First, you need to deal with the various formats. Microsoft Exchange, NeXTmail, PGP, and a pile of others. Next, unpacking the data may be a problem. What input format are you doing to accept? Word, WordPerfect, Write, WriteNow, ascii. What they heck, if your embracing the 90's I can send you voice mail. As a person you can probably understand it if we speak the same language, but I have a world wide community. What are you going to do about the people that don't speak english? Also consider the security implications of how this stuff is unpacked. There are plenty of ways to send something though a MIME format that can cause havoc. All things considered, I think the best thing to do is to stick with straight ascii text. The command processors need to recognize the data being sent to them to work properly. What stated this thread is that I was looking for the simplest way to tell people using this MSexchange how to get their messages into the proper format when talking to mail servers. Educate them, not flame them. --Gene Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: > >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, let's >just filter it out. > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the >90's! > >Ed Woodrick >EDCOM From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 06:31:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA26166 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:21:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA26161 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA04479 ; for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:20:08 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199603061420.JAA04479@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: CC:Mail attachments To: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:20:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199603052325.1921.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> from "Kjetil Torgrim Homme" at Mar 6, 96 00:25:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) When I faced this situation, what I did was to tell the users not to use the "reply" function but to keep an address-list entry for the posting address, and to screen-cut-and-paste from the received message to the sent message. That seems to be the natural adaptation in Mac and Windows where universal access to cut and paste means that a lot of dedicated functions [like reply with edit] are not supported. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 06:43:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA25975 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from big486.ed-com.com (big486.ed-com.com [38.253.238.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA25970 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by big486.ed-com.com with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BB0B3E.7D5BD9B0@big486.ed-com.com>; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Ed Woodrick To: "List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM" Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:44 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Gene, As with any technology advancement, there will be periods of instability. Electronic mail, long considered by many as one of the most important waves of future technology, has seen virtually no development advances in 20 years. Heck it's taken 20 years to get rid of 7 bit mailers! It's about time for a little shake-up. Granted there might be a period of interoperability problems. That's one of the reasons why you see the plain text portions coming from the Exchange products. One for newer mailers, and one for compatibility with text only mailers. MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't necessarily agree with them, but they are there. It will take a generation or two of mailers to get the bugs worked out. Of course a generation of mailers in the past was over 10 years, but I believe that it is decreasing drastically. I expect that it is currently under a year, and soon will be measured in months. But there will certainly be some of you using UNIX mail to read your messages. As you have somewhat alluded to, the number of people using Exchange as a mailer is increasing dramatically, becoming more and more of a problem for those "straight text mail" people out there. I think the situation would be different if Exchange didn't include a plain text message, but it does. You can read it in the format of your wish. Just please don't complain because your mailer can't ignore the MIME sections. If it could, you wouldn't even see the other portions. I certainly can't see the text portion. If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem to want to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a Internet explosion. And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Ed Woodrick >---------- >From: Gene Rackow[SMTP:rackow@mcs.anl.gov] >Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 1996 8:34 AM >To: Ed Woodrick >Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM >Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. > >I'm not saying that we should toss out the new, but at times I'd like to. >In >many areas our site is dealing with leading, to the point of bleeding, edge >tech. The problem that I see is that the new formats are getting used and >abused. There is NO reason that I see when someone is sending a >straight ascii text message that it needs to be encapsulated in MIME >wrappers. Sending someone a 3 line text message has now become a >10 to 200 line message. When I'm on the end of a dial up connection >with my laptop, I really don't want to waste time in downloading crap. > >I'll toss the challenge back your way then, since you seem to be a >fan of non-standards or broken software. (At this point there are more >systems NOT following the published standards than doing it correctly, or >like many things, if you don't like the existing standards, write your >own.) >I don't have the time to re-write the automated mail handling packages that >have been providing various services to understand all the different >"standard" >mail formats that are now out there. It would be nice to have something >that >understood all these packages, but there are alot of problems that need to >be >addressed in using them via automated systems. > >First, you need to deal with the various formats. >Microsoft Exchange, NeXTmail, PGP, and a pile of others. > >Next, unpacking the data may be a problem. What input format are >you doing to accept? Word, WordPerfect, Write, WriteNow, ascii. >What they heck, if your embracing the 90's I can send you voice mail. >As a person you can probably understand it if we speak the same language, >but I have a world wide community. What are you going to do about the >people that don't speak english? > >Also consider the security implications of how this stuff is unpacked. >There are plenty of ways to send something though a MIME format that >can cause havoc. > >All things considered, I think the best thing to do is to stick with >straight ascii text. The command processors need to recognize the data >being sent to them to work properly. What stated this thread is that I >was looking for the simplest way to tell people using this MSexchange >how to get their messages into the proper format when talking to mail >servers. Educate them, not flame them. > >--Gene > > >Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: > > > >What a concept! Instead of trying to embrace and use new technologies, >let's > >just filter it out. > > > >Why should we ever use anything but fixed font black and white messages? > > > >Let's keep messaging in the 60's instead of trying to of moving into the > >90's! > > > >Ed Woodrick > >EDCOM > From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:09:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA29660 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA29655 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:27 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:25 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 16:33:25 +0100 Message-Id: <199603061533.3852.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (message from Ed Woodrick on Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:22:44 -0500) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Ed Woodrick] | MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't | necessarily agree with them, but they are there. It will take a | generation or two of mailers to get the bugs worked out. Of course | a generation of mailers in the past was over 10 years, but I | believe that it is decreasing drastically. I expect that it is | currently under a year, and soon will be measured in months. But Microsoft Exhange (currently) isn't using MIME. If it was, it would have labeled the text as text/enriched, not text/plain with an attachment only Microsoft Exchange knows how to handle. In any case, there is no need to bloat one-line messages like "SUBSCRIBE List-Managers" into multi-part MIME-messages with one part. I was glad to see David Johnson report that the latter problem will be fixed in the final version. Keep in mind that MIME is designed to be handled by the MUA, so MIME-support must potentially be added to every small hack handling mail (and larger hacks, like Majordomo, Listproc etc.) And for little or no gain, except that they handle lazy software which MIME-encodes everything, needed or not. | If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem | to want to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a | Internet explosion. Is explosive growth an end in itself? I don't think anyone will dispute that the technical solutions which have emerged from the WWW development leave a lot to be desired. | And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your | brain dead mailer to not include me in any responses. I have done so, but I will note that it is often useful to get a direct reply as well, since the turn-around on many lists is quite high. On digested lists, this is the only way to actually have discussions within the digest. Kjetil T. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:16:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA01603 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ncar.UCAR.EDU (ncar.ucar.edu [192.52.106.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA01597 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:03:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603061601.JAA06087@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id JAA06087; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:01:22 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Microsoft Exchange To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 9:01:20 MST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: ; from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 6, 96 8:09 am From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. I think you are making unreasonable demands. MIME is relatively new (the operative word is "relatively"). It's very nice that you (or your mail administrator) has the staff time available to upgrade every host on your network to use MIME-compliant mail readers, but there are many of us out here who are pretty much stuck with what the vendors supply. Until MIME becomes enough of a standard that the vendors start supporting it, there will be many people who have mail readers that are not MIME-compliant. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't use MIME when you can, but it does mean that you have to be aware that not everybody is going to have it. And more to the point, I think that your implicit criticism of those sites who do not have the staff time to install special software on every host is unwarranted. --Greg (postmaster@ucar.edu) From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 08:38:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA01384 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from antares.mcs.anl.gov (mcs.anl.gov [140.221.9.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA01360 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mcs.anl.gov (obie.mcs.anl.gov [140.221.5.129]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA14046; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:57:51 -0600 Message-Id: <199603061557.JAA14046@antares.mcs.anl.gov> To: Ed Woodrick cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:22:44 EST." Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 09:57:50 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick made the following keystrokes: >Gene, > >As with any technology advancement, there will be periods of instability. >Electronic mail, long considered by many as one of the most important waves >of future technology, has seen virtually no development advances in 20 >years. Heck it's taken 20 years to get rid of 7 bit mailers! True, but there is an install base created over those same 20 years that need to be dealt with. Things are starting to change, but it takes time. I know of several major providers that have 100k+ users where the mail is line wrapped at 79 characters for them. They need to move to newer things, but when you have a user base that large you don't do it over night to something that is not going to be the standard in 6 months. > >It's about time for a little shake-up. Granted there might be a period of >interoperability problems. That's one of the reasons why you see the plain >text portions coming from the Exchange products. One for newer mailers, and >one for compatibility with text only mailers. > >MIME has some standards for document interchange, I don't necessarily agree >with them, but they are there. It will take a generation or two of mailers >to get the bugs worked out. Of course a generation of mailers in the past >was over 10 years, but I believe that it is decreasing drastically. I >expect that it is currently under a year, and soon will be measured in >months. Agreed, but again here is the problem in that as people are attempting to make the newer mailers, they are loosing one of the greatest strengths of the older systems. That being compatibilty. I'm not sure if you saw the number of people that had "No NeXT mail accepted" as part of their sigs. If the mailer format explosion grows as you think it will, then there will also be an explosion of incompatibilties in the mailers, unless version 5 of your mailer is compatible with all the features and bugs of the first 4 versions, plus everybody elses versions as well. > >But there will certainly be some of you using UNIX mail to read your >messages. As you have somewhat alluded to, the number of people using >Exchange as a mailer is increasing dramatically, becoming more and more of a >problem for those "straight text mail" people out there. I think the >situation would be different if Exchange didn't include a plain text >message, but it does. You can read it in the format of your wish. Just >please don't complain because your mailer can't ignore the MIME sections. If >it could, you wouldn't even see the other portions. I certainly can't see >the text portion. I'm not complaining that the mailer that I use to read mail can't deal with the formats of the messages. My complaint is that many people that are forced into using these new mailers because their school or IPS has moved to that mail system can't properly format a message to take to varios email based services. I will complain to individuals when they send me or a list a MIME message that many people on the list can't deal with. > >If we were to apply the same standards to WEB browsers as you seem to want >to do to mail readers, there probably wouldn't be a Internet explosion. The web is another matter entirely. It is a new tech. Granted the install base is growing extremely fast, but the people that have jumped onto the web bandwagon are knowingly doing so at their own risk. Also, now if you read the various security groups, etc. you see that there are many sites concerned about turning off these new features of the web. Nothing like putting up a big firewall only to have someone pop on a java page and break in from inside. > >And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead >mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, >I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it >directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. It appears that your mailer is the one that is brain dead in that you are addressing the mail to me, but you sent it to the list. If you were intending it as a private exchange, why didn't you address it that way? > >Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Agreed. As such, I'm dropping this as it appears that you have completely missed the point that brought this subject up in the first place. That being that MSexchange, MIME, and RTF formatted messages are NOT accepted by current automated mail based servers. People get upset because they can't do what they want, and don't have the base knowledge to set things up on their end properly. If they did, this wouldn't be a problem. --gene From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 11:18:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA09305 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:30:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uucp3.netcom.com [163.179.3.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA09300 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from duke.sagarmatha.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with UUCP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id GAA23966; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:39:06 -0800 Received: by duke (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tuJdD-000gm5C; Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:51 EST Message-Id: From: james@sagarmatha.com (James C. Armstrong) Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange To: ewoodrick@ed-com.com (Ed Woodrick) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:51:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Ed Woodrick" at Mar 6, 96 08:09:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm not Wes, but I can play him on TV. > I'm not talking about Exchange, I'm talking about MIME and RTF types of > attachments. With rich text messages, different replies can be in color, > counting >>>> to figure out who sent what isn't needed anymore. I can > emphasize portions of text, I can include pictures and graphs in my > messages. Fine. The complaints about Microsloth's WINMAIL.DAT are different. MIME is an accepted format; it has gone through the RFC process and a recognized standard exists for it. Elecronic mail readers should follow an upgrade path to at least read MIME format messages. WINMAIL.DAT has *not* followed this procedure to be accepted, to the best of my knowledge. Instead, it appears to me to be the case of some insulated engineers at Microsloth who think they know better, and are attempting to force their world-view on the Internet by brute force. (I know I've written that with some emotive content, I am attempting to give you the impression that I, as a 15 year veteran of the Internet, have been given by this.) > I don't use VI to create documents anymore. I use fairly sophisticated word > processors. My modem speeds have increased from 300 BPS to 128,000 BPS. I'd > like to think that I could use some of this for better looking messages. Fine. Use MIME. But be aware that everybody doesn't speak MIME. If the content of what you write is important, then send it in a method anyone can read. If the presentation is more important than content, then worry about the presentation. > I'm not saying that everyone in the forum should have the same software, but > I think that everybody should be working at using MIME compliant readers. > It's been a standard for awhile now, but POP3 developers not worrying about > it yet. But they spend days on creating the prettiest GUI for selecting and > reading messages. Doesn't this seem a little weird? > > I don't want to be stuck with the same standard that I used with my Radio > Shack Model 1. I put that machine in the closet years ago. But when it comes > to Email, messages look exactly the same. > > If plain ASCII messages are here to stay, then why was there such an effort > to develop the MIME specifications????? > > If we want to talk network etiquette, then why did you mail a copy of your > message direct to me? Is it because your mailer can't do a respond sender > only? You probably caused me more transfer time than if the message had > been MIME!!! In my case, I've opted to send both to you and to the mailing list, because I think it is relevant. The purpose of any of my mailing lists is communication, not presentation. I have no problem with MIME compliant messages sent to my list, as there are standards that define what a MIME message is (I think it is RFC1512, but I may have the number wrong), so anyone developing a mail user agent can interpret the message. The original complaint, though, was about WINMAIL.DAT and Microsloth Exchange. The addition they provide is not MIME compliant. It is basically a bunch of garbage appended to an email message. It is understood only by other Exchange users. I would have no problem instituting a filter to bounce back mail that includes this. There is a realm in the Internet where presentation can be more important than content, and that is in your Web page. Make it as pretty as you'd like. If, however, you want your message to be read and understood by the maximum number of people, you've got to make it as standards compliant as possible. Then, it is incumbent on the recipients to use a mail user agent that follows the standards. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 14:35:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA19569 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:54:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM ([131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA19563 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11179; Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:08 PST Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 6 Mar 96 13:52:08 PST Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12257; Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:07 PST Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 13:52:07 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9603062152.AA12257@tardis.tymnet.com> To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: CC:Mail attachments Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I passed this comment on to a cc:Mail knowledgable person and got this reply: -Joe > >From list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com Tue Mar 5 16:58:46 1996 > From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:25:37 +0100 > To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: CC:Mail attachments > > While we're on the subject of broken mailers... One of the members on > a list I run is using some CC:Mail stuff, and he's emitting messages > that look like this: > > <<> > > If you uudecode it, you get the headers of the message s/he replied > to. Discussions with the user indicates that he's able to remove the > included text, but not the uuencoded headers. On replying to a message the user needs to deselect the "Retain the original item" / "All" radio button. There is is also a configuration option that controls the default behaviour. Since the cc:Mail message format is not RFC-822, it needs to store the RFC-822 headers of inbound messages. So it makes them a file attachment. Most users ignore them to the point of sending them right back out when they reply or forward a message. > Does anyone know if it can be configured to behave? I would prefer to > find a solution so that I don't have to revoke the member's posting > access. (I really hate to read messages from people who use mail > agents where you can't edit the quoted material, anyway.) cc:Mail allows you to edit quoted material. It can seperate new material from quoted, but it uses a "Reply Seperator" rather then the internet style of indenting with a character, such as the common '>'. ----- End Included Message ----- From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 6 18:16:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA04435 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:58:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from server.postmodern.com (server.postmodern.com [199.172.54.54]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA04428 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:58:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 199.172.54.51 (derrida.postmodern.com [199.172.54.51]) by server.postmodern.com (8.6.10/8.6.10-mcb-951019) with SMTP id RAA29318; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 17:57:53 -0800 Message-ID: <313E425E.41FE@postmodern.com> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 17:56:46 -0800 From: "Michael C. Berch" Reply-To: mcb@postmodern.com Organization: INFOBAHN Magazine / Postmodern Communications, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Ed Woodrick wrote: > [...] > And again, I am already subscribed to the list. Please tell your brain dead > mailer to not include me in any responses. If I want to read your response, > I will read it from the list as everyone else. Or if you want to mail it > directly to me, please don't abuse the list by making everyone else read it. > > Like you said, a little netiquette is appropriate here! Wearing my list-managers list manager hat here. Ed, you may not be aware that it has long been considered a *courtesy* on mailing lists and on Usenet to mail a separate copy of your message to the person that you are directly replying to, in case their list mail is delayed or they have set up a filter that means they won't see it for a while. This means they get first chops on replying to *your* message -- it's disconcerting to find out that 5 other people have jumped into the fray before you even got your own copy via the list (or worse yet, on a newsgroup). So when Gene sent you a direct copy as well as the one on the list, it was most likely neither oversight or a brain-damaged mailer, but simply continuance of an old tradition of courtesy on lists. Admittedly it made more of a difference in the Old Days where many lists were on UUCP sites where a copy via the list might take quite a bit longer than a direct reply, but there's really no reason to take someone to task for lack of netiquette over it. (Especially lest others take you to task, for example, for including the entire message you are replying to at the bottom of the message, rather than omitting it, summarizing, or quoting the few lines you are replying to.) -- Michael C. Berch mcb@postmodern.com / mcb@greatcircle.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 02:18:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA29967 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-math-bb.math.ethz.ch [129.132.148.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA29947 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 02:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id LAA08459; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:47 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id LAA17752; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:45 +0100 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 11:04:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199603071004.LAA17752@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com Subject: Cascading help messages loop Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! I've recently moved the mailing list which I run from MXSERVER@BIBLE.ACU.EDU to Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu. Soon after than, a mail loop between the two computers started. If have now understood how this came about, and I've decided to share this experience, for the warning of the unwary :) a) A user sees information about the CHURCHPLANTERS list on a web page and is interested. That web page allows to create a subscription request and send it to the old server address. (I really hate those WWW-email gateways, they've caused me trouble before.) b) The user gets a message from the old, disabled list which states that the list has moved and that he can subscribe to CHURCHPLANTERS by sending mail to Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu c) Instead of composing a new message, the user uses the "forward" feature of his mailreader to send the following command to Majordomo: subscribe churchplanters The mailreader sends this message with a "From:" header field like this: From: MX mailing list processor (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. Robayo)) Not being experienced in the ways of e-mail, the user suspects nothing. d) Majordomo sees the From: header and interprets the subscription request as follows: subscribe churchplanters MX mailing list processor (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. Robayo)) As the maillog indicates, the envelope-From of this request was . Unfortunately, the address drobayo@posh.internext.com was included in a comment to the subscribed address, and for this reason Majordomo accepted the request. I consider this behavior to be a bug of Majordomo, because RFC 822 specifies: RFC822> Comments should be retained while the message is subject to RFC822> interpretation according to this standard. However, comments RFC822> must NOT be included in other cases, such as during protocol RFC822> exchanges with mail servers. This means (by my interpretation) that Majordomo is REQUIRED by the standard to strip comments from the address before checking whether it matches with the envelope-From. For my list, the subscription mode is set to "open", hence subscription requests are automatically honoured if the subscribed address "matches" the envelope-From. e) A welcome message is mailed out to the new subscriber MXserver@BIBLE.ACU.EDU. This welcome message contains examples of commands which people could send to Majordomo. f) This starts a nasty loop between Majordomo@genesis.acu.edu and MXSERVER@bible.acu.edu in which the two computers frantically scream their help messages at each other. With every iteration of the loop, the number of messages is doubled. (I call such a thing a loop cascade.) Hundreds of error messages were generated and sent to the majordomo admins, but fortunately not to the list subscribers. NEEDLESS TO SAY, I've now taken some measures which should suffice to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. Shalom, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome PGP public key & WWW homepage of CHURCHPLANTERS at http://pobox.com/~nb From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 04:48:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA08298 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:38:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from access.netaxs.com (access.netaxs.com [198.69.186.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA08293 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from unix2.netaxs.com (jgreshes@unix2.netaxs.com [207.8.186.4]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) with ESMTP id HAA07235 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:18 -0500 Received: (jgreshes@localhost) by unix2.netaxs.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id HAA19797; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:37:14 -0500 (EST) From: "It can't go on like this. That's what you think!" cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-Reply-To: <313E425E.41FE@postmodern.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > So when Gene sent you a direct copy as well as the one on the list, > it was most likely neither oversight or a brain-damaged mailer, but > simply continuance of an old tradition of courtesy on lists. > Admittedly it made more of a difference in the Old Days where many > lists were on UUCP sites where a copy via the list might take quite > a bit longer than a direct reply, but there's really no reason to > take someone to task for lack of netiquette over it. (Especially And there can still be considerable delays. The machine my lists are on has such heavy mail traffic that it take hours for a message to go through the list (list mail is set to bulk priority so it is only processed when there is no personal mail to deliver or send--another reason for a person reply in addition to the list reply--the personal reply is not bulk priority and is sent from the replier's home machine instead of being processed through the list machine). Also, sendmail processes a list post by going down the list of delivery addresses and attempting delivery to each address. When it hits a machine it can't contact, it defers not just that particular user, but everyone in the list after that user. So you may just get a post that other users on the list received hours ago. Ed's obnoxiousness seems to be increasing greatly with each post. Time to go in the back yard and hose yourself down before posting again, big guy. Jason From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 05:01:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA09008 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:57:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA09003 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 04:57:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA25728 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:55:32 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 12:45:43 GMT Reply-To: nigel@diversity.org.uk X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: list-managers@diversity.org.uk Subject: MS Exchange attachments Message-Id: <9603071245.aa01793@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is what I sent to my lists regarding the exchange problem; I've since written a filter that lets me specify which mime types are allowed on the list, and bounces others (and UUencoded, or BinHex attachments too). Nigel. On 23 Jan, UKM-Nigel Whitfield wrote: > Many people have been inconvenienced recently by users of MS Exchange > sending mail to uk-motss, resulting in junk attachments being created > on the end of messages, both in digests and on the main list. > > Following considerable experimentation, it appears that it is possible > to configure Exchange not to produce this extra information. > > If you do not use MS Exchange to read or compose your messages, the > remainder of this message will not concern you. Apologies for posting > it in its entirety, but I'd rather stop this nonsense now, rather than > relying upon people to request information at their leisure. > > If you do use Exchange, READ IT CAREFULLY. Failure to comply will > result in all your messages being held for manual processing, > potentially delaying them by up to 24 hours. > > The Exchange Problem: > ===================== > > As far as I have been able to tell through experimentation, it is not > possible to change a single configuration option to prevent unwanted > attachments with Exchange. You must change the appropriate option for > each Internet address that you send mail. > > Sending attachments with your mail > ================================== > > It is not possible to turn attachments on and off for a particular > message. As far as I can see, attachments will not appear on your > internet mail unless you have the address of the recipient in your > address book. > > When an address is not in the address book, you can use colour, fonts > and different styles in a message, but MS Exchange will discard it > all before sending the message, without telling you that it is doing > so. > > If an address is in the book, you can tell Exchange whether or not you > want the information about colour, fonts and so on included when you > send mail to that address. > > To configure this, pull down the Tools menu in Exchange and select > Address Book. Find the entry that you want to change and double click > on it. Now, if it's not on top automatically, click on the tab marked > "SMTP - Internet" > > You will see two boxes, labelled "Display Name" and "E-mail address." > Check that these are correct, and then look at the check box below, > which is labelled "Always send messages in Microsoft Exchange rich > text format." > > Unless you know that the people you are writing to also use MS > Exchange, you should make sure that there is NO TICK IN THIS BOX. When > this box is ticked, Exchange adds attachments to your message, giving > details about fonts and colours in a non-standard Microsoft format. > > If in doubt about the mail program that someone else is using, or if > you are posting to a public forum such as a mailing list or a > newsgroup, you should ensure that this option is turned off. > > Sending unnecessary attachments is anti-social and wasteful. How > wasteful? A message 38 letter long, with one word in colour and one in > a different font, acquires an attachment of 1514 letters to describe > it to Exchange users! > > WINMAIL.DAT and application/ms-tnef > =================================== > > These are the two things that appear in mail that you send to other > people from Exchange; WINMAIL.DAT is a UUencoded file, and > application/ms-tnef is a MIME type. Both have the same effect on > people not using Exchange - they see garbage at the end of your > messages, and often have to pay to download it. > > Options for attachments are set in Exchange via the Tools menu; select > Services, then choose Internet Mail and select Properties. The button > near the bottom of the Window labelled Message Format allows you to > choose whether MIME format messages are sent from MS Exchange. > > In general, it is probably better to use MIME than not; if you don't > select MIME, Exchange will use UUencoding, which is an older and less > sophisticated way of handling attachments. > > Exchange and uk-motss > ===================== > > If you have difficulty following these instructions, contact > uk-motss-REQUEST@dircon.co.uk > > People who persist in posting messages with Exchange attachments will > not be allowed to post automatically to uk-motss, and their messages > will be edited if found to contain attachments. > > Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 06:19:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id FAA11099 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA11093 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA15938 ; for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:42:43 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: MS Exchange attachments To: nigel@diversity.org.uk Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 08:42:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9603071245.aa01793@fags.stonewall.demon.co.uk> from "Nigel Whitfield" at Mar 7, 96 12:45:43 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: MS Exchange attachments This is what I sent to my lists regarding the exchange problem; I've since written a filter that lets me specify which mime types are allowed on the list, and bounces others (and UUencoded, or BinHex attachments too). What moved you to proscribe UUencoded attachments? This seems to be broadly interoperable. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 10:16:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA23581 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:08:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from felix.dircon.co.uk (felix.dircon.co.uk [193.128.224.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA23575 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from diversity.org.uk by felix.dircon.co.uk with SMTP id AA07451 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:06:20 GMT From: Nigel Whitfield Subject: Re: MS Exchange attachments Organization: Digital Diversity Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 18:03:47 GMT Message-Id: References: <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net> Apparently-To: Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In article <199603071342.IAA15938@access2.digex.net>, Al Gilman wrote: >What moved you to proscribe UUencoded attachments? This seems to be >broadly interoperable. Largely MS Exchange, since if you have MIME turned off, it'll stuff all it's crap into WINMAIL.DAT and uuencode it on the end of the message. Plus, all the lists that I run are for text based discussion, and many people are using dialup links. I doubt they'll appreciate paying to download it. Ultimately, of course, the choice of what to bounce will vary from list to list, which is why I just rewrote my list manager and put all this in a config file, so I can alter it easily for all the different lists I manage. Nevertheless, I can't think of a good reason to allow any kind of attachment on discussion lists. Nigel. -- Nigel Whitfield nigel@diversity.org.uk Digital Diversity nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk and uk-motss ***** All demon.co.uk sites are independently run internet hosts ***** From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 16:10:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA10928 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 15:46:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom13.netcom.com (netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA14361 for ; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:06:36 -0800 (PST) From: postmaster@LSD.com Received: from [192.187.167.52] by netcom13.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id MAA20041; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:04:45 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: Level Seven Digital X-PGP-KeyID-Fprnt: 4AAF00E5 - 30D81F3484E6A83F 6EC8D7F0CAB3D265 X-PGP: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/htbin/pks-extract-key.pl?op=get&search=lsd X-Floppyright: (f)1995 LSD.com _ Unlicensed retransmission prohibited. Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 03:32:19 -0800 To: postmaster@vais.net, PMDAtropos@aol.com Subject: "KNOCK-KNOCK" spammer Cc: List Managers List , spam-l@searn.sunet.se, George Pearson , DRIS Account Manager , "Amy Stinson" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ATTN: This person was recently kicked off serve.com (a few days ago), but is now sendmail-spamming/-spoofing people as "rpboul" on AOL. Suggest you *remove* this user ASAP. It might help if we share the user's real name and address with the list-managers list so we can track him/her and warn the next ISP... dave PS: sorry, George, evidence, you know... just hit delete. ;) ................................. cut here ............................... Return-Path: Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com by mail6.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id AAA22662; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:54:16 -0800 From: rpboul@aol.com Received: from vais.net by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id AAA22763; Wed, 6 Mar 1996 00:54:15 -0800 Received: from [206.43.171.118] by vais.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0ttl52-000PcGC; Mon, 4 Mar 96 19:58 EST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 19:58 EST X-Sender: rpboul@aol.com (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: (Recipient list suppressed) Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! 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Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 19:36:11 -0500 From: DRIS Account Manager X-Authentication-Warning: serve.com: bin set sender to accounts@mail.serve.com using -f To: postmaster@LSD.com The account to which you have sent mail, "gwennie@mail.serve.com", has been removed from our server due to irresponsible behavior. We are deeply sorry for any incovenience that this person may have caused you, and ask you to understand that while it is difficult to take preventive measures against such actions, we respond immediately to taking corrective measures. Again, we apologize for the disturbance. This was an automated response, but if you would like to get in touch with us about the matter, please address your comments/questions to: accounts@mail.serve.com -- DataRealm Internet Services, LLC [elided] ................................ cut here ................................ >From: gwennie@mail.serve.com >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 16:20 EST >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >Subject: KNOCK - KNOCK! > > > > FREE AUDIO TAPE - FREE AUDIO TAPE [elided] From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 7 22:46:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA28580 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA28570; Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:48 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 22:31:57 -0800 To: bollow@math.ethz.ch, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Cascading help messages loop Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:04 AM 3/7/96, bollow@math.ethz.ch wrote: >d) Majordomo sees the From: header and interprets the subscription request > as follows: > >subscribe churchplanters MX mailing list processor > (by way of drobayo@posh.internext.com (Daniel D. >Robayo)) > > As the maillog indicates, the envelope-From of this request was > . Unfortunately, the address > drobayo@posh.internext.com was included in a comment to the subscribed > address, and for this reason Majordomo accepted the request. I consider > this behavior to be a bug of Majordomo, because RFC 822 specifies: > > RFC822> Comments should be retained while the message is subject to > RFC822> interpretation according to this standard. However, comments > RFC822> must NOT be included in other cases, such as during protocol > RFC822> exchanges with mail servers. > > This means (by my interpretation) that Majordomo is REQUIRED by the > standard to strip comments from the address before checking whether > it matches with the envelope-From. For my list, the subscription mode > is set to "open", hence subscription requests are automatically > honoured if the subscribed address "matches" the envelope-From. a) You're complaining to the wrong mailing list. Issues specific to a particular package should be addressed to that package's dedicated mailing list; in this case, that would be majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. b) Majordomo _does_ strip out the comments before comparing addresses. I don't know what the problem is, but that's not it. c) Just what do you expect Majordomo to _do_ to prevent this situation? -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 01:32:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA07517 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 01:30:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from frege.math.ethz.ch (frege-math-bb.math.ethz.ch [129.132.148.14]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA07504 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 01:30:37 -0800 (PST) From: bollow@math.ethz.ch Received: from vaden.math.ethz.ch (bollow@vaden.math.ethz.ch [129.132.146.136]) by frege.math.ethz.ch (8.6.4/Main-mathdept-mailer) with ESMTP id KAA15872; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:58 +0100 Received: (bollow@localhost) by vaden.math.ethz.ch (8.6.9/D-MATH-client) id KAA25245; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:57 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:28:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199603080928.KAA25245@vaden.math.ethz.ch> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Cc: drobayo@posh.internext.com In-reply-to: (Brent@GreatCircle.COM) Subject: Re: Cascading help messages loop Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In my "Cascading help messages loop" horror story, there were some ramblings which falsely stated that Majordomo did't fully adhere to RFC822. Brent Chapman commented on them: > a) You're complaining to the wrong mailing list. Issues specific to a > particular package should be addressed to that package's dedicated mailing > list; in this case, that would be majordomo-users@greatcircle.com. I apologize. I will post a full report together with a patch to fix the problem to majordomo-users. Please forgive me, I'm just recovering from a mail loop and a score of other problems (for example, in an attempt to help solve the mail loop problem, the main Systems Manager lost the /etc/aliases file and the only copy he found was nine months old.) BE WARNED, however, list-managers, whatever systems you use, that sometimes you will get a subscription request with a From: header line which contains a different e-mail address than the one of the user who tries to subscribe. In my experience this happened without all malicious intent through the use of the "forward" feature of a mailreader. > b) Majordomo _does_ strip out the comments before comparing addresses. I > don't know what the problem is, but that's not it. You're right. I'll post about the real problem to majordomo-users. > c) Just what do you expect Majordomo to _do_ to prevent this situation? Compare the envelope-from to the new subscriber's address, if the subscribe_policy is "open". God bless, Norbert. -- Norbert Bollow, Zuerich, Switzerland. Admin of the CHURCHPLANTERS list Email-To: bollow@math.ethz.ch PGP encrypted mail welcome PGP public key & WWW homepage of CHURCHPLANTERS at http://pobox.com/~nb From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 07:48:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA26661 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from sbccab.cc.sunybroome.edu (sbccab.cc.sunybroome.edu [192.203.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA26652 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:27:25 -0800 (PST) From: BCC001561@sunybroome.edu Received: from sunybroome.edu by sunybroome.edu (PMDF V5.0-3 #8051) id <01I23CJ9Z5KG8Y54BJ@sunybroome.edu> for LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM; Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:26:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 10:26:41 -0500 (EST) To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM Message-id: <01I23CJA0N9E8Y54BJ@sunybroome.edu> X-VMS-To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 8 08:47:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA00135 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:18:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from albaao.albuquerque.ihs.gov ([161.223.160.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA29997 for ; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [161.223.160.33] by albaao.albuquerque.ihs.gov (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31133; Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:21:03 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4b11.32.19960308161903.00699cb4@161.223.160.1> X-Sender: tas@161.223.160.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4b11 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 09:19:03 -0700 To: LIST-MANAGERS@GREATCIRCLE.COM From: Tim Skeen Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk SIGNOFF From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 10 13:34:19 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA25947 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from quality.qadas.com (quality.qadas.com [204.227.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA25934; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:03:57 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gosburn@localhost) by quality.qadas.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA08853; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: Gayle Osburn DeBruyn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of years ago two lists that I work with joined with several other lists to be carried on an inter-law-school, usenet-based newsgroup network that was only open to students and faculty at the half-dozen or schools involved. Each list was given its own newsgroup, which could be set as read only in relation to the list or a full read/write or two-way message exchange with the list. The newsgroups were also archived so that they were readable by the public via WWW from the law schools Web site. The next step was to have been a jerry rigged set up to permit Web users write as well as read access to the newsgroup/list set up. As I recall there was some discussion of passwording the write access to the groups from the Web. But, regrettably the third year law student, Larry Donahue, who put the network together graduated before the last step--two way Web access--had been implemented. I now see that software, like O'Reilly and Associates' recent Web Board package, is being written specifically to support Web based discussion groups. I checked out the sales materials at their Web site and the package of their's does not appear to handle linking the Web groups with corresponding mailing lists. There are also at least three on-line service packages (they used to be called BBSs) are being distributed with discussion groups that are shared between the dial up or telenetable on-line service (BBS) and an HTML implamentation on a mirror Web site of the discussion groups and every thing else that is available on the on-line service to dial up and telenet users. With all of these developments, I was hoping that the participants here might know of software that will permit a two-way link between the email-based, list and a Web-based counterpart discussion group. This would be a very attractive option for large volume discussion groups and for users whose mail boxes are overwhelmed by the traffic from the various lists that they belong to. Thanks, John DeBruyn -- Send any private replies to jdebruyn@usa.net From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 10 13:45:27 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA25964 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from quality.qadas.com (quality.qadas.com [204.227.16.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA25954; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gosburn@localhost) by quality.qadas.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id OAA08853; Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: Gayle Osburn DeBruyn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of years ago two lists that I work with joined with several other lists to be carried on an inter-law-school, usenet-based newsgroup network that was only open to students and faculty at the half-dozen or schools involved. Each list was given its own newsgroup, which could be set as read only in relation to the list or a full read/write or two-way message exchange with the list. The newsgroups were also archived so that they were readable by the public via WWW from the law schools Web site. The next step was to have been a jerry rigged set up to permit Web users write as well as read access to the newsgroup/list set up. As I recall there was some discussion of passwording the write access to the groups from the Web. But, regrettably the third year law student, Larry Donahue, who put the network together graduated before the last step--two way Web access--had been implemented. I now see that software, like O'Reilly and Associates' recent Web Board package, is being written specifically to support Web based discussion groups. I checked out the sales materials at their Web site and the package of their's does not appear to handle linking the Web groups with corresponding mailing lists. There are also at least three on-line service packages (they used to be called BBSs) are being distributed with discussion groups that are shared between the dial up or telenetable on-line service (BBS) and an HTML implamentation on a mirror Web site of the discussion groups and every thing else that is available on the on-line service to dial up and telenet users. With all of these developments, I was hoping that the participants here might know of software that will permit a two-way link between the email-based, list and a Web-based counterpart discussion group. This would be a very attractive option for large volume discussion groups and for users whose mail boxes are overwhelmed by the traffic from the various lists that they belong to. Thanks, John DeBruyn -- Send any private replies to jdebruyn@usa.net From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 11 03:47:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id DAA12491 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:28:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from syse.dce.vic.gov.au ([203.11.140.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA12478; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:28:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.dce.vic.gov.au (hermes.dce.vic.gov.au [157.128.1.43]) by syse.dce.vic.gov.au with SMTP id WAA08747 (8.7.1/IDA-1.6); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:25:32 +1000 (EST) Received: from msl.oz.au (msl) by hermes.dce.vic.gov.au with SMTP id AA01054 (5.67a/IDA-1.5); Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:26:39 +1100 Received: from msl by msl.oz.au (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11173; Mon, 11 Mar 96 22:24:53 EST Message-Id: <9603111124.AA11173@msl.oz.au> X-Sender: ngd@msl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 22:24:23 +1000 To: jdebruyn@usa.net From: Nik Dow Subject: Re: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 02:01 PM 10/03/96 -0700, Gayle Osburn DeBruyn wrote: >With all of these developments, I was hoping that the participants here >might know of software that will permit a two-way link between the >email-based, list and a Web-based counterpart discussion group. This >would be a very attractive option for large volume discussion groups and >for users whose mail boxes are overwhelmed by the traffic from the >various lists that they belong to. One similar set up is provided by the lwgate cgi-perl software which is mainly for giving WWW access to e-mail lists, and constructs e-mails for all the commands like subscribe, who, etc. One of the nicest things about lwgate is that if the archives of the e-mail list are visible to the WWW server, lwgate will show them sorted by author, subject or date. This can be the easiest way to monitor a busy list, although it is not a sophisticated as a thread following newsreader. The two way component is provided by lwgate allowing composition of messages to the list - but off hand I can't remember if it does this; I'm on a serial line now and can't check. lwgate is located at http://www.netspace.org/users/dwb/lwgate.html _____________________________________________________________________ Nik Dow Marine and Freshwater Resources Institute Manager, Biometry & Computing P.O. Box 114 voice +61 (3) 412 7433 ,-_|\ Queenscliff fax: (3) 412 6866 / \ Australia 3225 n.dow@msl.oz.au \_,-. / * <--- Queenscliff v From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 11 07:44:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA22845 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:15:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA22839; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:15:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal-ham-g01-u01 (i486nt01.harte-lyne.ca) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA254857294; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:14:54 -0500 Message-Id: <314444AF.2EB7@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:20:15 -0500 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nik Dow Cc: jdebruyn@usa.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups References: <9603111124.AA11173@msl.oz.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hypermail v 1.02 is also a good archive to html converter for mailing lists. In addition to supporting indices by data, author and subject it also provides threading. It does not have lwgate's frontend to mailinglist commands however. I am currently hacking the source code to allow the inclusion of site or list specific html prefix and suffix code to the indices and to allow a default background file for the actual messages. If there is interest I will look at lwgate and see if I can add those features unique to lwgate to hypermail as well. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 11 10:41:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA02951 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA02931; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA26939; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:22:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603111822.MAA26939@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Cc: N.Dow@msl.oz.au, jdebruyn@usa.net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussiongroups Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:20:15 -0500" References: <314444AF.2EB7@harte-lyne.ca> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 12:22:26 -0600 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [This is straying from useful majordomo-users content. I CC it above because the MailServ program discussed below supports Majordomo lists. If replies are not relevant to majordomo-users, please edit it out of the recipient list.] >>>>> "JB" == "James B Byrne" writes: JB> Hypermail v 1.02 is also a good archive to html converter for mailing JB> lists. And since I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread, MHonArc does the same (threading and indices, though by default it does not supply an index by author). It can also deal with MIME attachments, so attached picture files show up as images in the archived message. JB> I am currently hacking the source code to allow the inclusion of site JB> or list specific html prefix and suffix code to the indices and to JB> allow a default background file for the actual messages. This is trivial with MHonArc, which allows complete customization of the generated HTML code. JB> If there is interest I will look at lwgate and see if I can add those JB> features unique to lwgate to hypermail as well. My main problem with LWGate is that it does all work with the archives (index generation and single message extraction) on the fly. This is OK for small lists, but some of my lists have over 10MB of archives. Instead I'm hacking on a package called MailServ which just provides the list command interface, and linking it to a MHonArc archive to which I've hacked a Glimpse indexer. MHonArc is at . MailServ is at . My list archive in its current state is at . It has full Glimpse indexing but no Mailserv link yet. Beware, the list content can be offensive. Everything except the Glimpse program itself (MHonArc, MailServ, the front end to my list, etc.) is written in Perl5. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 11 15:21:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA16103 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [199.222.42.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA10439 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lava.net [199.222.42.2] by malasada.lava.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0twF08-000A7XC; Mon, 11 Mar 96 11:19 WET Message-Id: To: Christopher Samuel cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com, postmaster@malasada.lava.net, postmaster@iquest.net Subject: Re: Recent forged subscriptions (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:11:53 GMT." <12791.826557113@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 11:19:31 -1000 From: Robert S Brewer Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message Christopher Samuel writes: >/* > * Cc'd to the postmasters of the sites being abused as a "heads up" > * > * Summary for them: a lot of forged subscribe messages for various > * users around the net have been issued using your sites as convenient > * staging posts due to the mail software you use. This is not intended > * as a flame at all, just as some information in case you were not aware. > */ > >Here are the edited highlights of a selection of the forged subscription >messages I received, fortunately the majordomo-owner of mono.org has hacked >the code to include potentially useful information after the last round. >Thanks Dave! > >The hosts malasada.lava.net and iquest.net seem to be implicated, but I >suspect that is merely because they are running versions of SMail that >don't appear to bother doing any checking on the name presented at the >initial SMTP HELO greeting, and thus cannot be traced any further. Thanks for the info. In our case, you are right in that the attacker was just using us as a relay. The actual attack was traced back to a cracked account at Netcom which has since been deactivated. We have improved our Received header creation so that it now includes the real IP address of the host sending the email, so future attacks can be traced to the source without our intervention. We just added the following to our config file for Smail (included for the benefit of other Smail admins): received_field="Received: \ ${if def:sender_host\ {from $sender_host [$sender_host_addr] by $primary_name\ ${if def:sender_proto: with $sender_proto}\ \n\t(Smail$version #$compile_num) }\ else {by $primary_name ${if def:sender_proto:with $sender_proto }\ (Smail$version #$compile_num)\n\t}}\ id $message_id; $spool_date" From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 11 15:32:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA16033 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA22772 for ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 07:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:12:28 +0000 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:12:10 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tw9GM-0007V0C; Mon, 11 Mar 96 15:11 WET X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com CC: postmaster@malasada.lava.net, postmaster@iquest.net Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK Subject: Recent forged subscriptions (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 15:11:53 +0000 Message-ID: <12791.826557113@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk /* * Cc'd to the postmasters of the sites being abused as a "heads up" * * Summary for them: a lot of forged subscribe messages for various * users around the net have been issued using your sites as convenient * staging posts due to the mail software you use. This is not intended * as a flame at all, just as some information in case you were not aware. */ Here are the edited highlights of a selection of the forged subscription messages I received, fortunately the majordomo-owner of mono.org has hacked the code to include potentially useful information after the last round. Thanks Dave! The hosts malasada.lava.net and iquest.net seem to be implicated, but I suspect that is merely because they are running versions of SMail that don't appear to bother doing any checking on the name presented at the initial SMTP HELO greeting, and thus cannot be traced any further. Chris ------- Forwarded Messages Header information below: date : Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:43 EST from : markoff from majordomo-owner@mono.org mon mar 4 11 : 43:12 1996 message-id : received : from netmail.city.ac.uk (netmail.city.ac.uk [138.40.12.1]) by tachyo n.mono.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01596 for ; Mon , 4 Mar 1996 11:43:07 GMT, from iquest.net (dorite1.iquest.net [206.27.192.75]) by netmail.city.ac.uk (/City/2.1) with SMTP id FAA12355 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 05:54:00 GMT, from nyt.com by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3 .1.29.1 #15) id m0ttKch-004XYHC; Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:43 EST subject : subscribe to : majordomo@mono.org ------- Message 2 Header information below: date : Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:32 EST from : mikenmaty from majordomo-owner@mono.org mon mar 4 11 : 43:34 1996 message-id : received : from netmail.city.ac.uk (netmail.city.ac.uk [138.40.12.1]) by tachyo n.mono.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA01791 for ; Mon , 4 Mar 1996 11:43:33 GMT, from iquest.net (dorite1.iquest.net [206.27.192.75]) by netmail.city.ac.uk (/City/2.1) with SMTP id FAA11811 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 05:22:49 GMT, from aol.com by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3 .1.29.1 #15) id m0ttKSG-004XW9C; Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:32 EST subject : subscribe to : majordomo@mono.org ------- Message 3 Header information below: date : Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:05 WET from : president from majordomo-owner@mono.org mon mar 4 13 : 49:16 1996 message-id : received : from netmail.city.ac.uk (netmail.city.ac.uk [138.40.12.1]) by tachyo n.mono.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA04908 for ; Mon , 4 Mar 1996 13:49:16 GMT, from malasada.lava.net (root@malasada.lava.net [199. 222.42.2]) by netmail.city.ac.uk (/City/2.1) with SMTP id BAA07187 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:40:38 GMT, from whitehouse.gov by malasada.la va.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ttOip-000A6LC; Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:05 WET subject : subscribe to : majordomo@mono.org ------- Message 4 Header information below: date : Sun, 3 Mar 96 14:40 WET from : gene from majordomo-owner@mono.org mon mar 4 13 : 49:24 1996 message-id : received : from netmail.city.ac.uk (netmail.city.ac.uk [138.40.12.1]) by tachyo n.mono.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id NAA04940 for ; Mon , 4 Mar 1996 13:49:24 GMT, from malasada.lava.net (root@malasada.lava.net [199. 222.42.2]) by netmail.city.ac.uk (/City/2.1) with SMTP id BAA06991 for ; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 01:27:04 GMT, from aol.com by malasada.lava.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0ttOK7-000ABBC; Sun, 3 Mar 96 14:40 WET subject : subscribe to : majordomo@mono.org ------- End of Forwarded Messages From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 08:48:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA06563 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from welbutin.tiac.net (welbutin.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA06556 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from worldmachine.com (eric@worldmachine.com [204.215.133.237]) by welbutin.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id QAA28628 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:36:17 GMT Received: (from eric@localhost) by worldmachine.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id LAA06517 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:40:16 -0500 From: "Eric J. Hansen" Message-Id: <199603121640.LAA06517@worldmachine.com> Subject: Effect that increasing list/WWW access has on content To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:40:16 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi all, I've been comtemplating setting up a WWW interface to my lists, and this recent discussion of related CGI programs has prompted me to start a tangent thread here... What have your experiences been with increasing access to your mailing lists? Specifically, has making it easier to post/subscribe had any negative effect on message signal-to-noise ratio? I am toying with the idea of providing a list maintenance page on the WWW (i.e., subscribe, unsubscribe, post a message, etc.), but I think that this may increase subscriber turnover (i.e., alot of people subscribing just for the heck of it, and then unsubscribing a day later), and also make it easier to post worthless "me too" messages - let alone spam (although my lists *are* setup to allow posts by subscribers only). Incidentily, this is more-or-less the same reason that my three mailing lists (Level 42 Digest, Incognito Digest, Go West Digest) are *not* available in bounce mode - they're all digests. I think that this has helped to keep things relatively on-topic -- the great majority of posts have worthwhile content. Then again, due to the nature of my lists, the exchange of information is not really time *critical*. Any thoughts? Regards, -Eric SmartList Admin, Level 42 Digest / Incognito Digest / Go West Digest -- Eric J. Hansen .............................. http://www.worldmachine.com/eric Developer, Worldmachine Technologies ............ mailto:eric@worldmachine.com From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 09:37:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA09106 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from bastion.sware.com (bastion.sware.com [139.131.15.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09101 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:24:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from shlep.sware.com (shlep.sware.com [139.131.1.14]) by bastion.sware.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id MAA05648 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:21:59 -0501 Received: by shlep.sware.com (5.65/2.0) from woosel.sware.com id AA14987; Tue, 12 Mar 96 12:21:38 -0500 Received: by woosel.sware.com (1.38.193.4/2.0) from localhost id AA21679; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:19:51 -0500 Message-Id: <9603121719.AA21679@woosel.sware.com> From: Pat Fitzgerald X-Mailer: SecureMail [2.3.2] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Reply-To: fitz@sware.com Subject: where to send web errors? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 12:19:51 EST Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm the author of the MailServ (http://iquest.com/~fitz/www/mailserv) web interface. I recently stopped using an "Errors-to" header, and now use sendmail to set the envelope return address. My question is: where should I send the error messages? I currently send the error messages to a built-in address (my own address) or to an "errors" address that can be specified as a hidden variable in the form. However, ListProcessor v6.0 uses the envelope return address as the subscription address. So when a user tried to subscribe to a ListProcessor list, it subscribed me instead. I could instead set the envelope return address to the subscriber's address, but what would happen if the user mistyped his address? Any opinions as to what I should do? p.s. I know that ListProc 6.0 has a patch to use the "From:" header instead, but that is not always under my control. -- ________ Patrick Fitzgerald Hewlett-Packard Company / _____ ) fitz@secureware.com Internet and System Security Lab / ___) / /__ (404) 315-9703x181 http://www.hp.com/ (_/ it(_____) (404) 315-6407 (fax) http://iquest.com/~fitz/ From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 11:18:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA12725 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:19:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA12714; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:19:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from eric (eric.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.138]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA14422; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:17:18 -0500 Message-ID: <3145BF9D.11BB@lsoft.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:17:01 -0500 From: Dave Hanna Organization: L-Soft international, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: Gayle Osburn DeBruyn To: list-managers@greatcircle.com, majordomo-users@greatcircle.com Subject: Two-way Web interface for mailing-list-based discussion groups Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A couple of years ago two lists that I work with joined with several other lists to be carried on an inter-law-school, usenet-based newsgroup network that was only open to students and faculty at the half-dozen or schools involved. Each list was given its own newsgroup, which could be set as read only in relation to the list or a full read/write or two-way message exchange with the list. The newsgroups were also archived so that they were readable by the public via WWW from the law schools Web site. The next step was to have been a jerry rigged set up to permit Web users write as well as read access to the newsgroup/list set up. As I recall there was some discussion of passwording the write access to the groups from the Web. But, regrettably the third year law student, Larry Donahue, who put the network together graduated before the last step--two way Web access--had been implemented. I now see that software, like O'Reilly and Associates' recent Web Board package, is being written specifically to support Web based discussion groups. I checked out the sales materials at their Web site and the package of their's does not appear to handle linking the Web groups with corresponding mailing lists. There are also at least three on-line service packages (they used to be called BBSs) are being distributed with discussion groups that are shared between the dial up or telenetable on-line service (BBS) and an HTML implamentation on a mirror Web site of the discussion groups and every thing else that is available on the on-line service to dial up and telenet users. With all of these developments, I was hoping that the participants here might know of software that will permit a two-way link between the email-based, list and a Web-based counterpart discussion group. This would be a very attractive option for large volume discussion groups and for users whose mail boxes are overwhelmed by the traffic from the various lists that they belong to. Thanks, John DeBruyn -- Send any private replies to jdebruyn@usa.net From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 12:03:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA16610 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ds1.gl.umbc.edu (ds1.gl.umbc.edu [130.85.3.11]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA16605 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:37:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from eric (eric.dc.lsoft.com [205.186.43.138]) by ds1.gl.umbc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA23625 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:35:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3145D1EF.643A@lsoft.com> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:35:11 -0500 From: Dave Hanna Organization: L-Soft international, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 08:56:24 -0600 From: Gene Rackow Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't have the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. I have a several different auto {list} server packages like majordomo and netlib. None work or work well with this format message. I'd like to have a canned reply that I can just bounce back to these poor souls using this stuff. In a few cases, the lusers got rather upset in that they couldn't get access to the services provided even though they did get a reply stating the EXACT format their input message needed to be. They didn't know how to create such a message. There seems to be a growing number of these people out there. Thanks --Gene ------- Forwarded Message Received: from news2.swip.net (news2.swip.net [192.71.220.18]) by antares.mcs.anl.gov (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA21242 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 08:24:14 -0600 Received: from gatekeeper.vv.se (gatekeeper.vv.se [193.181.57.1]) by news2.swip.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA07480 for ; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:23:34 +0100 (MET) Received: from mailgate.vv.se by gatekeeper.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/11Jan95-0239PM) id AA13263; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:36:53 +0100 Received: from obro-exchange.ore.vv.se by mailgate.vv.se; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/24Jan95-0504PM) id AA02724; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:25:28 +0100 Received: by obro-exchange.ore.vv.se with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.1.611) id <01BB0AA7.505785F0@obro-exchange.ore.vv.se>; Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:40 +0100 Message-Id: From: Axelsson Anders ASA To: "'Majordomo@mcs.anl.gov'" Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:20:39 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lists end - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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 - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB0AA7.505785F0-- ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 12:53:28 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA18720 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu [128.52.46.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA18714 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:20:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12GNU) id PAA20969; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:18:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:18:27 -0500 From: "Leonard H. Tower Jr." Message-Id: <199603122018.PAA20969@nutrimat.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: fitz@sware.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: <9603121719.AA21679@woosel.sware.com> "fitz@sware.com" Reply-To: tower@albert.gnu.ai.mit.edu Organization: Project GNU, Free Software Foundation, 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA +1-617-542-5942 Home: 36 Porter Street, Somerville, MA 02143, USA +1-617-623-7739 URL: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~tower/home.html Subject: where to send web errors? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Pat Fitzgerald Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 12:19:51 EST Precedence: bulk I'm the author of the MailServ (http://iquest.com/~fitz/www/mailserv) web interface. I recently stopped using an "Errors-to" header, and now use sendmail to set the envelope return address. My question is: where should I send the error messages? I currently send the error messages to a built-in address (my own address) or to an "errors" address that can be specified as a hidden variable in the form. However, ListProcessor v6.0 uses the envelope return address as the subscription address. So when a user tried to subscribe to a ListProcessor list, it subscribed me instead. Report this as a bug to the maintainers of ListProcessor. Handle the problems it casues manually until they fix it. I could instead set the envelope return address to the subscriber's address, but what would happen if the user mistyped his address? Any opinions as to what I should do? p.s. I know that ListProc 6.0 has a patch to use the "From:" header instead, but that is not always under my control. -- ________ Patrick Fitzgerald Hewlett-Packard Company / _____ ) fitz@secureware.com Internet and System Security Lab / ___) / /__ (404) 315-9703x181 http://www.hp.com/ (_/ it(_____) (404) 315-6407 (fax) http://iquest.com/~fitz/ best -len From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 12 12:53:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA19455 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [205.218.122.51]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA19450 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:35:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) id OAA24554; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:35:14 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:35:14 -0600 (CST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" X-Sender: winter@sasami To: Dave Hanna cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Microsoft Exchange mail to list server addresses. In-Reply-To: <3145D1EF.643A@lsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Dave Hanna wrote: > Does anyone have a reasonable (not total flame) reply available to tell > people how to set options or whatever on Microsoft Exchange so that it > does NOT do all the MIME packaging of a plain text message. I don't have > the package, nor do I want to waste my time figuring it out. Filter your list command/request alias on the following, or some approximation. They won't be able to subscribe, and you won't have to deal with the problem at all. If they fuss, tell them to get a real email-reader. Thats what we tell all of our customers. (not in those words of course...) > X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.1.611 Obviously, this isn't a complete solution, but it does solve the problem. :) Have a good one. | Matthew N. Dodd | winter@jurai.net | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | | Technical Manager | mdodd@intersurf.net | http://www.intersurf.net | | InterSurf Online | "Welcome to the net Sir, would you like a handbasket?"| From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 13 17:03:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA21698 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.marquee.com (mail.marquee.com [204.182.105.70]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA21693 for ; Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [204.29.16.69] (blv-pm2-ip9.halcyon.com [204.29.16.69]) by mail.marquee.com (8.7.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id CAA08854 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 02:57:02 +0100 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:59:00 -0800 To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: bob@marquee.com (Bob Cappel) Subject: Changing Reply-To: Fields Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi. I have read the FAQ and the Manual, but this concept is still unclear to me. I would really like the reply to field to read: Reply-To: NAME OF MY LIST (listname@marquee.com) or something like that. So that people who recieve mail from the list know it's from the list, not just some random user, and so that they can reply directly to the list. We are setting up several discussion lists, and this is important. I've been trying for about 3 days to fix this using all the resources availiable....can't get it right. Help! Thanks in advance, Bob bob@marquee.com From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 15 14:07:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA10065 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA09670 for ; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:29:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id FAA28776; Fri, 15 Mar 1996 05:16:37 -0800 From: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov(128.219.128.125) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma028764; Fri Mar 15 05:16:27 1996 Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 3995); 15 Mar 1996 13:20:06 GMT Date: 15 Mar 1996 13:20:06 GMT Message-ID: <19960315132006.10988.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> To: bob@marquee.com (Bob Cappel) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Changing Reply-To: Fields In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM Version 5.95 (beta) with XEmacs 19.13 of Fri Sep 1 1995 on sgi0 (irix) [formerly Lucid Emacs] Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5MI have read the FAQ and the Manual, but this concept is still unclear to >me. I would really like the reply to field to read: > >Reply-To: NAME OF MY LIST (listname@marquee.com) This is really a bad idea. >or something like that. So that people who recieve mail from the list know >it's from the list, not just some random user, and so that they can reply >directly to the list. Mail sent to a mailing list will look like: From: joe@foo.bar (Joe Smith) To: mailing-list@listsite.baz Subject: Whatever Blah blah blah The recipient can deduce, based on the fact that his address isn't listed in the "To" header, that he received the message via the "mailing-list" mailing list. Just about every modern mail agent provides a way to reply either to just the sender (From: or Reply-To:) or to everyone (From:/Reply-To:, To:, and CC:). The "fix" is educating users in carefully reading headers (a very valuable skill) and learning how to operate their software (another very important skill). Hacks like using Reply-To: to direct replies to the list are bad because they discourage proper understanding and usage of the system and penalize those who know how things really work. -Dave From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 16 07:00:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA14718 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ASARian.org (ASARian.org [152.52.36.201]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA14686 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: (from fuzzy@localhost) by ASARian.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id JAA06551; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:45:57 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:45:55 -0500 (EST) From: Fuzzy To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Changing Reply-To: Fields In-Reply-To: <199603160900.BAA00986@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: Organization: *fuzzies* and *e-hugs* MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM wrote: > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:00:30 -0800 (PST) > From: list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM > To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: List-Managers-Digest V5 #52 > > > List-Managers-Digest Saturday, 16 March 1996 Volume 05 : Number 052 > > From: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov > Date: 15 Mar 1996 13:20:06 GMT > Subject: Re: Changing Reply-To: Fields > > >I have read the FAQ and the Manual, but this concept is still unclear to > >me. I would really like the reply to field to read: > > > >Reply-To: NAME OF MY LIST (listname@marquee.com) > > This is really a bad idea. > > Just about every modern mail agent provides a way to reply either to > just the sender (From: or Reply-To:) or to everyone (From:/Reply-To:, > To:, and CC:). > > The "fix" is educating users in carefully reading headers (a very > valuable skill) and learning how to operate their software (another > very important skill). Hacks like using Reply-To: to direct replies to > the list are bad because they discourage proper understanding and > usage of the system and penalize those who know how things really > work. > I don't agree... for example this list, (list-managers), is setup the way he wants to do it. that way the sender/from:/envolope-address is the list owner, (for bounces and other errors), and the reply-to: is the list for the usual form replying to the list. if the sender/from:/envolope-address were the list wouldn't email bounces go to the list and cause mail-loops? Fuzzy From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 16 09:47:11 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA21704 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (woodlawn.uchicago.edu [128.135.12.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA21676 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from woodlawn.uchicago.edu (csdayton@localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by woodlawn.uchicago.edu (8.7.1/8.7.2) with ESMTP id LAA18343; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:33:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603161733.LAA18343@woodlawn.uchicago.edu> In-reply-to: Fuzzy's message of Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:45:55 -0500 (EST) To: Fuzzy cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Changing Reply-To: Fields Reply-To: csdayton@midway.uchicago.edu References: Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:33:30 CST From: Soren Dayton Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk argggg. I hate this argument. Fuzzy said: > On Sat, 16 Mar 1996 list-managers-digest-owner@GreatCircle.COM wrote: > > >I have read the FAQ and the Manual, but this concept is still unclear to > > >me. I would really like the reply to field to read: > > > > > >Reply-To: NAME OF MY LIST (listname@marquee.com) > > > > This is really a bad idea. Agreed. See Dave, we can agree on something :) > > The "fix" is educating users in carefully reading headers (a very > > valuable skill) and learning how to operate their software (another > > very important skill). Hacks like using Reply-To: to direct replies to > > the list are bad because they discourage proper understanding and > > usage of the system and penalize those who know how things really > > work. > > I don't agree... With what do you disagree? 1. That every functional user-agent ought to provide a feature that allows you to reply to the the _originator_ and to the _recipients_. 2. that people should know a little bit about headers so that they can reply how they intend to reply? 3. Users who now what they are doing should not be punished? If you disagree with 3, you should be shot. If you disagree with 2 then we have a simple conflict of opinion, but I think that my position is pretty much supported by the standards (it is the burden of the user to figure out who the mail is supposed to go to). If you deal with 1, I am just totally befuddled. There is one more argument. not touching the Reply-To; header hurts less people. Sporadically I am on a list and someone posts something that annoys me. I can hit reply (repl in my case, as an mh user) and I can send it to the _originator_ without really any effort. (Note that I am not really being rational in this story) And then it goes to teh right place. If the Reply-To was set to the list, then it would take some effort to get it to do the things that I would want it to, and because I am being an irrational ass, the letter would likely go to the entire list. and we all hate flame wars on mailing lists. And people can always resend letters to mailing lists if it was accidentally redirected, but they cannot do the analogous if they screw up with the Reply-To set to the list. > for example this list, (list-managers), is setup the way > he wants to do it. that way the sender/from:/envolope-address is the list > owner, (for bounces and other errors), and the reply-to: is the list for > the usual form replying to the list. No. that is the _digest_ list. That is the _only_ way that a digest can make any sense. You can burst the digest and respond individually. > if the sender/from:/envolope-address > were the list wouldn't email bounces go to the list and cause mail-loops? Of course. When was that being set to the list? (actually not if you are using a mailing list manager with half a clue because it would catch them). We are referring to the _Reply-To_ header which is a different mess entirely. If you do _that_ you are asking to get hosed. this showed up at one point and this url was posted. I think that it summarizes the arguments with the most clarity and eloquence. Lets make this required reading for anyone who posts in this thread. Please? http://www.unicom.com//FAQ/reply-to-evil.html Soren Dayton From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 16 11:30:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA24921 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pcusa01.ecunet.org (pcusa01.ecunet.org [198.70.54.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA24916 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:22:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Changing Reply-To: Fields To: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 14:02:23 -0500 (EST) From: Merrill Cook Cc: bob@marquee.com, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <19960315132006.10988.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> from "de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov" at Mar 15, 96 01:20:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <9603161402.aa27957@pcusa01.ecunet.org> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov: > > The "fix" is educating users in carefully reading headers (a very > valuable skill) and learning how to operate their software (another > very important skill). Hacks like using Reply-To: to direct replies to > the list are bad because they discourage proper understanding and > usage of the system and penalize those who know how things really > work. Actually, getting users to use their software the way they are supposed to, rather than the way they actually do, is pretty much futile; you need to fix the software so the way people use it is also the right way to do things. A better reason for not using Reply-to for the list is that errors and miscellaneous stuff end up going to everyone on the list, whereas otherwise they would just go to the sender. -- Regards, Merrill Cook Louisville KY mcook@pcusa.org or MERRILL COOK on Ecunet/PresbyNet http://www.pcusa.org/pcusa.html -+- From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 16 17:59:58 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA09871 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA09866 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #8380) id <01I2F2DAAQRM000A0M@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:44:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from Taronga.COM by UUCP-GW.CC.UH.EDU with UUCP id AA00817 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for list-managers@greatcircle.com); Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:32:02 -0600 Received: (from arielle@localhost) by bonkers.taronga.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA03742 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:21:05 -0600 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 19:21:04 -0600 (CST) From: arielle@taronga.com (Stephanie da Silva) Subject: A possible mailing list spam To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: <199603170121.TAA03742@bonkers.taronga.com> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-type: text Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My spam detector just went off. This may be an alphabetical spam of the PAML, and may not be. FYI. Btw, I found it amusing their hostname is "trapdoor". Forwarded message: > From Rayno1@trapdoor.aracnet.com Sat Mar 16 19:15:42 1996 > Message-Id: <314B67D7.D08@mail.aracnet.com> > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:16:07 -0800 > From: Rainer Davis > Organization: RINO Enterprises > X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > To: ZER0-request@neosoft.com > Subject: A-Tech Computer Consulting > Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1F58806735" > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > --------------1F58806735 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hey! > > Are you interested in geting a web page up? > Well if you are then A-Tech Computer Consulting can get you there > you can reach us at http://www.aracnet.com/~rayno1/atech.html > Everything you need to know is there for you leave a message at our site > and a A-Tech Representive will get back to you. > > --------------1F58806735 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="atech.html" > > [Advanced Technologies] > > A-Tech is a highly advanced computer consulting company. We specialize in > computer competence training for businesses, or personal tutoring for the > home. We also specialize in building computers for businesses or for home. > We offer competitive prices, great service, and intelligent and personable > consultants who specialize in whatever your personal needs are. > > [Image][Image][Image] > > --------------1F58806735-- > > From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 16 23:44:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA23392 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA23387 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 23:41:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7/8.7/PanixU1.3) id CAA28650; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:39:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 02:39:14 -0500 (EST) From: Oliver Garfield To: Stephanie da Silva cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, oliver@panix.com Subject: Re: A possible mailing list spam In-Reply-To: <199603170121.TAA03742@bonkers.taronga.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk While extended material from a subscriber about commercial material they are offering made become abusive I think there should be some format for brief announcementa of new products or services that might be useful to the list subscribers. The announcement you forwarded to the list, IMHO, falls in this category. I had some difficulty in learning how to compose homepages but resolved the matte by buying an excellent text and manual the "Webpage Construction Kit" published by Sams net which is available in at most software stores or sources. This included both a software disc, a manual, and a 400 page text "Teach Yourself Web Publishing with HTMLin a Week. It costs $25 and can be order directly from the publisher at 1-800-428-5331. I have no connection with the publisher but provide this information as an enthusiastic user. I was up and going in a few hours and subsequently signed on with one of the firms they recommend who maintain home pages and mailing lists (exploders not listservs) at extreme low rates (30 per month) for small business including 10 meg of storage and 200 megabytes of transmission a month. For more information about Webcom e-mail info@webcom.com. So while I think the firm offering services should be allowed brief access to this list, IMHO, I think there is perhaps a better alternative as I have mentioned. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 01:10:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA24953 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net (dorite1.iquest.net [206.27.192.75]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA10312 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:17:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ind-009-237-114.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #15) id m0twbub-004XheC; Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:47 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" To: "Eric J. Hansen" , list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 16:46:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Effect that increasing list/WWW access has on content Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12 Mar 96 at 11:40, Eric J. Hansen wrote: > What have your experiences been with increasing access to your mailing lists? > Specifically, has making it easier to post/subscribe had any negative I pick up an average of 10 new subscribes every day and I'd say 7 of them are from the Lgate site. The main problem I have is badly configured browsers that don't have proper email addressing. That's my biggest problem. Compuserve people seem to have the biggest problem where their address comes through as 2 addresses. > effect on message signal-to-noise ratio? I am toying with the idea of > providing a list maintenance page on the WWW (i.e., subscribe, unsubscribe, > post a message, etc.), but I think that this may increase subscriber turnover > (i.e., alot of people subscribing just for the heck of it, and then > unsubscribing a day later), and also make it easier to post worthless "me too" > messages - let alone spam (although my lists *are* setup to allow posts by > subscribers only). I don't get a lot of turnover and it has helped from the standpoint that they know they can go to the Web site to get off the list. I don't have a lot of problem with "worthless" posts. It has also let me let people know in advance that my list is somewhat technical and high volume. I like having the gateway. It works great and does what I need it to do. Amy Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net agstinso@nyx.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys Thought for the day: Bagpipes (n): an octopus wearing a kilt. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 11:29:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA16651 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:29:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA16646 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 11:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA01875; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 13:49:23 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: A possible mailing list spam Date: 17 Mar 1996 13:49:23 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 14 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ihmrj$1qg@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Oliver Garfield writes: >While extended material from a subscriber about commercial material they >are offering made become abusive I think there should be some format for >brief announcementa of new products or services that might be useful to >the list subscribers. This is the kind of thing that can only be made on a per-list basis. Some lists would welcome it, some wouldn't. IMHO, this list wouldn't. -- "Hi, this is Chuck and your call means a lot to me. If I should return while I'm gone, please detain me until I get back." BEEP! -- Chuck Pyle, the Zen Cowboy, in `Camel Rock', Bee'n'Flower Music, Box 385, ElDorado Springs, CO 80025 303-543-0888 From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 16:45:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA23066 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA23061 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA09597 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:31:36 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02093; Sun, 17 Mar 96 16:31:35 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9603180031.AA02093@siesta> Subject: more magazine spams in progress To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:31:35 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk It looks like the magzine spam is going again.... Can anyone shed some light on the source? >From shyamala.raperjee@netaccess.net1.ub.in Sun Mar 17 19:03:07 1996 Return-Path: Received: from ix.ix.netcom.com by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA27722; Sun, 17 Mar 96 19:03:07 EST Received: from [206.163.122.106] by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id PAA05488; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:33:37 -0800 X-Sender: ginny@pop.dorsai.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reply-To: please.reply.via.fax.or.smail@fax.number.or.smail.address.shown.below Approved: moderator X-Priority: 2 (High) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 17:07:52 +0530 To: shyamala.raperjee4@netaccess.net1.ub.in From: shyamala.raperjee4@netaccess.net1.ub.in (Shyamala Raperjee) Subject: ===>> *Fantastic* FREE offer I discovered on the 'net -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 18:49:35 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA28337 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from rio.com (rio.com [206.96.130.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA28331 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:28:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [206.96.130.143] (p43.t0.rio.com [206.96.130.143]) by rio.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id SAA21755 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:23:30 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: newmant@rio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:26:31 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: tan@pobox.com (T.A. Newman) Subject: need help with compuserve bounce Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi, I need help understanding the following error message. I can't figure out which, if any, of my subscribers is causing this problem. And Compuserve isn't answering my messages asking for help. (Is there a David O'Donnell at Compuserve - i.e., someone who understands internet mail protocols and is willing to help us?) my list: usnonprofit-l@rain.org list server software: SmartList thanks, Tom Tom Newman tan@pobox.com ========== the error message I need help understanding ======== Received: from cobra.ordata.com (cobra.ordata.com [207.48.96.1]) by rio.com (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id OAA18003 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from coyote.rain.org (list@coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by cobra.ordata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id OAA10844 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:58:23 -0800 Received: (from list@localhost) by coyote.rain.org (8.6.12/CSE) id OAA08022 for newmant@ordata.com; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:56:10 -0800 Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [198.4.9.2]) by coyote.rain.org (8.6.12/CSE) with ESMTP id OAA07883 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:55:59 -0800 Received: by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA05016; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:56:57 -0500 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:56:10 -0800 X-From_: administrator@clevorch.ccmail.compuserve.com Sun Mar 17 14:56:00 1996 Old-Date: 17 Mar 96 17:54:27 EST From: To: Subject: Message not deliverable Message-ID: <960317225426_702420.204300_BHD53-27@CompuServe.COM> X-Diagnostic: Mail to coyote.rain.org bounced 25 times X-Diagnostic: Bounces exceed threshold of 6 X-Diagnostic: Not confident enough to autoremove the offending address 27547 coyote.rain.org X-Diagnostic: Mail coming from a daemon, ignored X-Diagnostic: Possible loopback problem X-Envelope-To: usnonprofit-l Content-Type: text ----------------------------------- Returned ----------------------------------- From: INTERNET:usnonprofit-l@rain.org at CSERVE Date: 3/17/96 5:32PM *To: INTERNET:USNONPROFIT-L@RAIN.ORG at CSERVE Subject: Re: phone cards as a fundraising tool ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ============== Begin part 2 ========================== Sender: usnonprofit-l-request@rain.org Received: from coyote.rain.org (coyote.rain.org [198.68.144.2]) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id RAA11910; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:27:02 -0500 Received: (from list@localhost) by coyote.rain.org (8.6.12/CSE) id OAA01871; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:25:33 -0800 Resent-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 14:25:33 -0800 From: [subscriber to my list] Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 17:24:45 -0500 Message-ID: <960317172443_248345026@mail04> To: usnonprofit-l@rain.org Subject: Re: phone cards as a fundraising tool Resent-Message-ID: <"tz013.A.oR.3DJTx"@coyote> Resent-From: usnonprofit-l@rain.org X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/268 X-Loop: usnonprofit-l@rain.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: usnonprofit-l-request@rain.org [deleted] ============== End part 2 ============================ From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 18:54:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA27781 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA27768 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA10083 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:15:46 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02507; Sun, 17 Mar 96 18:15:45 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9603180215.AA02507@siesta> Subject: More mailing list spams To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 18:15:44 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Will it never end? EMail Express writes: > From www@emxp.com Sun Mar 17 17:07:53 1996 > Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:57:37 -0800 > Message-Id: <199603180057.QAA14505@emxp.com> > From: EMail Express > Subject: Exciting Music products and more... > > Welcome to E-MAIL EXPRESS... http://emxp.com > Apparently-To: Music@emxp.com > > The FIRST responsible "TARGETED" E-Mail Service For Businesses! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We'd like to introduce you to E-Mail Express, a new service that > promotes responsible use of the internet for commercial use. > > E-Mail Express is a unique service that sends batch electronic mailings > to a large number of "qualified" or "targeted" mailing lists for > advertising purposes. We at E-Mail Express feel that commercial use > of the internet can be done responsibly by: > > - Using TARGETED mailing lists - allowing businesses to get their > products, services, or business opportunities known to a large > number of INTERESTED recipients. > > - Offering several easy ways for users to be EXCLUDED from all current > and future mailings from E-Mail Express and OTHER participating > internet advertisers. Users may enter their names into our > INTERNET MAILING EXCLUSION LIST by sending mail to remove@emxp.com, > or by visiting our removal web page at http://emxp.com/remove > > - All mailings will include a bit of humor or wit compliments of MAJON's > CyberMall located at http://www.majon.com > > We take these measures to assure that our clients' advertisements > > REACH ENTHUSIASTIC CUSTOMERS! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > E-Mail Express allows you to SAVE MONEY and INCREASE YOUR SALES! > > We believe that our approach to internet advertisement offers the > most effective way for businesses to get their products, services or > business opportunities known to a large number of INTERESTED consumers. > > Unlike other bulk E-mailers we offer various CATEGORIES of "TARGETED" > interest groups. You may send your advertising message to ANY or ALL > of our mailing database categories that relate to your market and be > sure to reach quallified buyers! Plus you can do it all ONLINE! > > Our mailing lists are grouped by the following categories: > (If you received this Email you are already in one of the following) > > BUISNESS -- sm/lg home, products, services 56,965 names! > COMPUTER -- hardware, software, programming 41,885 names! > ENTERTAINMENT -- TV, movies, games, hobby 50,969 names! > MISCELLANEOUS -- general, food, pets, odd 58,998 names! > MUSIC -- all types & periphials 36,754 names! > PHOTOGRAPHY -- photos, videos, graphics, visuals 19,195 names! > EDUCATION -- teaching, science, school, grads 20,664 names! > SELF-HELP -- new age, religion, psychology, 50,847 names! > SOCIETY -- travel, culture, law, politics 18,962 names! > SPORTS -- all types 16,608 names! > > > ======================================================= > THIS WEEKS SPECIAL MUSIC CO-OP OFFERINGS........ > ======================================================= > > ======================================================= > Remember the days of DOO WOP, SOCK HOPS, and those FOOT STOMPIN' > OLDIES? Now you can bring back the sounds you grew up with and relive > the memories! Choose your favorite songs from over 470 titles and a > customized cassette tape will be created just for you! BACK TRACKS > INC. To receive info by mail call 610-696-2716 By E-MAIL, send address > to NDA28@AOL.COM > ======================================================= > To set up your own World Wide Web site right online visit the > INSTANT Web Generator ... it will automatically create your web > site in full color WITH Order forms, hit counters, icons and your > choice of background colors.... Check it out at: > > http://www.majon.com/cgi-bin/majon/Iweb.cgi?Form > > ======================================================= > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > LAUNCH YOUR OWN INTERNATIONAL MARKETING CAMPAIGN! > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > E-Mail Express offers the following services... > > --- > > TARGETED WEEKLY CO-OP MAILING......special only $29.00 per category > > Every week, E-Mail Express will send an E-Mail message to each of our > 10 "TARGETED" categories. Each message contains aproximately 15 to 20 > different 5 line ads. The regular cost for these co-op ads is only > $49.00 per 5 line ad, per category. Your advertisement should contain > a brief description of your product or service and your E-mail address, > phone number or other contact information so that interested customers > can reach you directly with their questions and orders. Our special > price of only $29.00 per ad per category ends March 19, 1996. > > --- > > EXCLUSIVE TARGETED DIRECT E-MAIL.....special only $250.00 per category > > At any time you may request to have your own advertisement sent > "exclusively" to any of our "TARGETED" E-Mail categories. Your > advertisement can consist of up to 1 full page of information. The > regular cost is only $399.00 per category. Take advantage of our > special offer only $250.00 per category for your exclusive ad... the > price is only $999.00. > > --- > > EXCLUSIVE POWERMAIL ...........................special only $799.00 > > As a special introductory offer you can send your "exclusive" E-Mail > advertisement to our ENTIRE LIBRARY OF DATABASES for our special > introductory price of only $799.00! Regular price is $999.00. Our > special offer ends March 19, 1996 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To get your advertisement placed in our next mailings, you may... > > 1. Go to our new Web site located at: > > http://emxp.com > > Check out our latest database statisitics and enter your > order/advertisement right now ONLINE!!! It will automatically > be included in our next mailing! Be sure to include your > payment information. We accept VISA, MASTERCARD, AMERICAN > EXPRESS, CHECKS and MONEY ORDERS. > > > 2. If you do not have access to the world wide web. You can request > an order form by sending an Email to order@emxp.com You will > receive the order form in a few short minutes. You may then > return it via Email. If at all possible we do recommend you > visit the E-MAIL EXPRESS Web site, for more information about > our services and statistics and ease in entering your advertisement > into our next mailing. > > > 3. You may Fax your advertisement to us at 1-805-528-2800 be sure > to include your payment information. We accept VISA, MASTERCARD, > AMERICAN EXPRESS, CHECKS and MONEY ORDERS. > > > -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 19:16:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA00308 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA00303 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:10:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Sun, 17 Mar 96 19:08 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 19:08:49 -0800 (PST) To: jeffw@triple-i.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re: More mailing list spams In-Reply-To: <9603180215.AA02507@siesta> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960125-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) on scroll <9603180215.AA02507@siesta> > > Will it never end? Hmmm. That I can't really answer. However one of the best weapons that the spammers have right now is a certain amount of untracability. It is trivial to bounce spam off an unsuspecting mailhost somewhere. One can hope that such a mailer will record properly where the mail came from so that the spam police can go after them. If wishes were horses, beggers would ride. :-) There is one thing that I've been meaning to look into though. Sendmail - the most used MTA on the Internet blindly accepts mail from anybody for anybody. I want to put an end to this. I've been meaning to look into how much work it would be to make Sendmail refuse to accept a peice of mail not destined for a user of any of the domains it is serving. (i.e. the contents of the "w" macro). That would start to limit where spammers could send their mail from and give the spam police some parties to go after for spam. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 22:00:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id VAA10323 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA10318 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 1; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:54:52 PST Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 21:54:48 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: jeffw@triple-i.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F7D4.D39EE028.1@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: More mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"jeffw@triple-i.com" 17-MAR-1996 18:56:39.36 > Subj: More mailing list spams > > Will it never end? > Probably not, but we gotta make a stand... > EMail Express writes: > > From www@emxp.com Sun Mar 17 17:07:53 1996 > > Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:57:37 -0800 > > Message-Id: <199603180057.QAA14505@emxp.com> > > From: EMail Express > > Subject: Exciting Music products and more... > > > > Welcome to E-MAIL EXPRESS... http://emxp.com > > Apparently-To: Music@emxp.com > > > > The FIRST responsible "TARGETED" E-Mail Service For Businesses! > > Yeah, right... Since the advertising address was from AOL, did you forward a copy of this to abuse@aol.com? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 17 23:00:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA12336 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA12324 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:52:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA11162; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:51:09 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03242; Sun, 17 Mar 96 22:51:08 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9603180651.AA03242@siesta> Subject: Re: More mailing list spams To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 22:51:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <0099F7D4.D39EE028.1@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Mar 17, 96 09:54:48 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Henry W. Miller writes: > > > > > > The FIRST responsible "TARGETED" E-Mail Service For Businesses! > > > > > Yeah, right... > > Since the advertising address was from AOL, did you forward a > copy of this to abuse@aol.com? I sent a copy to postmaster@aol.com. I hope the folks there will forward it the appropriate people... Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 01:45:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA19351 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:35:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA19346 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:35:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 70; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:33:15 PST Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 01:33:13 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: jeffw@triple-i.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F7F3.56612A98.70@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: More mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"jeffw@triple-i.com" 17-MAR-1996 22:53:11.84 > Subj: Re: More mailing list spams > Henry W. Miller writes: > > > > > > > > The FIRST responsible "TARGETED" E-Mail Service For Businesses! > > > > > > > > Yeah, right... > > > > Since the advertising address was from AOL, did you forward a > > copy of this to abuse@aol.com? > > I sent a copy to postmaster@aol.com. I hope the folks there will > forward it the appropriate people... > > Jeff > > -- > Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International > Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 Jeff, They will - it'll just take a little longer. Their postmaster is also a member of this list... -HWM From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 08:03:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA07953 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA07947 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 07:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (1232@mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) id ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:10:37 +0100 From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:10:35 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:10:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199603181510.19024.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-reply-to: (brian@ilinx.ilinx.com) Subject: Re: More mailing list spams Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Brian J. Murrell] | I've been meaning to look into how much work it would be to make | Sendmail refuse to accept a peice of mail not destined for a user | of any of the domains it is serving. (i.e. the contents of the "w" | macro). | =20 | That would start to limit where spammers could send their mail | from and give the spam police some parties to go after for spam. In what way will this stop spam? There's really no reason to bounce off someone else's site=B9 except for convenience (i.e. mail queue, failed delivery etc.). It's a SMOP to make your own SMTP transfer agent. You don't even need any special privileges to run it. Kjetil T. =B9) Given that the bouncee records the fact in the headers. From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 08:34:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA11376 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA11371 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 08:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) id LAA18937; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:17:16 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: More mailing list spams Date: 18 Mar 1996 11:17:16 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 16 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ik2ac$ifm@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) writes: >There is one thing that I've been meaning to look into though. Sendmail - >the most used MTA on the Internet blindly accepts mail from anybody for >anybody. I want to put an end to this. I've been meaning to look into how >much work it would be to make Sendmail refuse to accept a peice of mail not >destined for a user of any of the domains it is serving. (i.e. the >contents of the "w" macro). Can't do this without changing the standard first -- this is a defined feature of SMTP-based mail systems. Probably hopeless. -- "Hi, this is Chuck and your call means a lot to me. If I should return while I'm gone, please detain me until I get back." BEEP! -- Chuck Pyle, the Zen Cowboy, in `Camel Rock', Bee'n'Flower Music, Box 385, ElDorado Springs, CO 80025 303-543-0888 From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 10:01:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA16035 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:54:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu [128.163.144.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA16013 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 09:54:17 -0800 (PST) Received: (from morgan@localhost) by skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id MAA06982 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:53:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:53:27 -0500 From: Wes Morgan Message-Id: <199603181753.MAA06982@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>There is one thing that I've been meaning to look into though. Sendmail - >>the most used MTA on the Internet blindly accepts mail from anybody for >>anybody. I want to put an end to this. I've been meaning to look into how >>much work it would be to make Sendmail refuse to accept a peice of mail not >>destined for a user of any of the domains it is serving. (i.e. the >>contents of the "w" macro). > >Can't do this without changing the standard first -- this is a defined >feature of SMTP-based mail systems. Probably hopeless. This is true, but... Nothing stops you from refusing SMTP connections from domains which harbor spammers. I wonder how the typical provider would handle: - being told that their domains were refused service, and - all the complaints from their legitimate customers who get served off lists as a result. The package you're looking for (if you want to do this) is tcpd; earlier incarnations were known as tcp_wrapper. --Wes From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 11:24:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA18279 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA18260 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:25:48 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.3/8.7.3) id NAA19906; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:23:10 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: mailing list spams Date: 18 Mar 1996 13:23:10 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 19 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ik9me$jdv@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199603181753.MAA06982@skyhawk.ecc.engr.uky.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Wes Morgan in response to my saying: >>Can't do this without changing the standard first -- this is a defined >>feature of SMTP-based mail systems. Probably hopeless. >This is true, but... >Nothing stops you from refusing SMTP connections from domains which >harbor spammers [ other good comments removed ] True but irrelevant. You can do this without modifying SMTP or sendmail. Simply grab one of the rule-based SMTP proxies such as that which comes with socks or the TIS firewall kit, and install it in front of sendmail. -- "Hi, this is Chuck and your call means a lot to me. If I should return while I'm gone, please detain me until I get back." BEEP! -- Chuck Pyle, the Zen Cowboy, in `Camel Rock', Bee'n'Flower Music, Box 385, ElDorado Springs, CO 80025 303-543-0888 From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 13:46:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA28466 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ornette.uchicago.edu (ornette.uchicago.edu [128.135.99.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA28287 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.uchicago.edu [127.0.0.1]) by ornette.uchicago.edu (8.7.3/8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06430; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:14:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603182114.PAA06430@ornette.uchicago.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 Reply-To: ckk@uchicago.edu From: ckk@uchicago.edu To: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org Subject: Latest Krazy Kevin mag spam comes from teleport.com port Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:13:56 -0600 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Many of us are so sick of it we just delete them and try to ignore them, but there are always new people receiving, and being outraged by, Krazy Kevin's never-ending tiresom forged magazine subscription spams. Someone just reported it again on the list-managers list and apparently wasn't familiar with the history (is there a Web page on Krazy Kev anywhere?). He had stopped for a few weeks, I think at long last he'd finally gotten closed out of his previous freenet ports? But another went out on St. Patty's Day, apparently injected via ip-pdx10-42.teleport.com, IP Address 206.163.122.106, according to the initial Received header generated by ix.netcom.com, and also according to the Message-ID header. My copies always come through the "header-people" mailing list. Relevant Krazy Kev headers, the only 2 that weren't forged: --------------------------------------------------------- Received: from [206.163.122.106] by ix.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id QAA12111; Sun, 17 Mar 1996 16:20:59 -0800 Message-Id: --------------------------------------------------------- (everything else is forged as usual, this time the To: and From: are Shyamala Raperjee in India, and X-Sender is ginny@pop.dorsai.org, and even the Date may be forged since it's from Sat Mar 16 at 17:55, not from Sun the 17th) ----------------------------------------------------------- I'm just too tired and busy to deal with it, can someone please report back on any luck contacting teleport.com sysadmins? Thanks, Chris Koenigsberg ckk@uchicago.edu, http://www2.uchicago.edu/ns-acs/ckk/index.html U. of Chicago Academic Computing Services Postmaster (postmaster@uchicago.edu) From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 14:01:09 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA28164 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:16:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from village.ios.com (village.ios.com [198.4.75.49]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA28148 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gsp@localhost) by village.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id QAA20824; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:11:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:11:40 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel Pfarrer Reply-To: dpfarrer@gsp.com To: List Managers Mailing List cc: HiCom Admin , ph@his.com, support@holonet.net Subject: prioritized use of internet (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk May be of interest to you... $***********************************************************************$ * Daniel Pfarrer (DP108) SBA: daniel.pfarrer@sbaonline.gov * * CEO & System Administrator Sys Admin: admin@gsp.com * * of GSP Services, Inc. Business: dpfarrer@gsp.com * * Located in Washington, DC, USA gsp@village.ios.com * * IRS: "April 15, 1996" WWW: http://www5.ios.com/~gsp/ * $***********************************************************************$ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:50:42 CST From: Virginia Metze To: Multiple recipients of list SPAM-L Subject: prioritized use of internet I found this posted on another list and thought that it is apropos to our discussions and am posting it in the event that you have not seen a copy. Ginny Title : TRAFFIC JAMS ON THE INTERNET Type : Press Release NSF Org: OD / LPA Date : March 14, 1996 File : pr968 Media only contact: Beth Gaston March 14, 1996 (703) 306-1070/egaston@nsf.gov NSF PR 96-8 All others contact: Mark Luker (703) 306-1950/mluker@nsf.gov TRAFFIC JAMS ON THE INTERNET: New Connections Program to force Internet Technology While the Internet grows in popularity, a related problem is growing: traffic jams. The increased demand of more people on-line using increasingly sophisticated tools has caused delays in transmission unacceptable for some scientific uses. The National Science Foundation has introduced a new twist to its connections program: emphasizing innovative solutions that may have broad implications for all Internet users. The program will look for meritorious applications that require high performance networking, and will then fund development by university and college campus network service providers. Technology developed for this program will likely affect future operation of the Internet. The technology will introduce the idea of prioritization to Internet traffic. For example, if planning to use the U.S. Postal Service to send a package, you have options: overnight mail, first-class service, or third-class service. The rate of the package delivery is contingent on how it is designated. Freeways around major cities often have either express toll roads or high-occupancy-vehicle lanes to bypass congested areas. Similarly, NSF's connections program is expected to spur the development of switches and routers to help alleviate bottlenecks of information. "There is no single solution. We hope this grant program will stimulate the development of a technological option for the Internet, to introduce prioritization and provide a new style of connection that gives a guaranteed level of service at a national level," said Mark Luker, manager of NSF's connections program. Currently on the Internet, all packets of information are treated alike. While this worked fine before the popularization of the Internet, it now interferes with some uses that require high performance service. One example is to use high performance connections of multiple small computers to create a large workstation cluster distributed across the nation. The Internet is currently too congested for such a system. Teleconferencing or videoconferencing also places too great a need on the current capacity. And, some scientific instrumentation requires specific fast connections, though not necessarily high bandwidth. Interruptions or delays caused by Internet congestion could be fatal to experiments. One solution might include prioritization of traffic on the Internet. Another solution might involve diverting specially coded traffic to high performance, special use networks, such as NSF's vBNS (very high speed Backbone Network Service). -end- NSF was created as an independent federal agency in 1950, uniquely charged with promoting the progress of all fields of science and engineering. Today, as a leader and steward of the nation's science research base, NSF supports both research and education through competitive grants to about 2,000 universities and other institutions. NSF receives some 60,000 research proposals each year and funds about one-third of them. ** News releases and tipsheets are available electronically on NSFnews. To subscribe, send an e-mail message to listmanager@nsf.gov. In the body of the message, type "subscribe nsfnews" and then type your name. For more guidance, send a "help" message to listmanager@nsf.gov. Also see the NSF Home Page (http:// www.nsf.gov), under News of Interest. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- End of pr968.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 14:16:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA02114 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA02102 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from crl3.crl.com by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA16540 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:00:51 -0800 Message-Id: <199603182200.AA16540@mail.crl.com> To: ckk@uchicago.edu Cc: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com, gherbert@crl.com Subject: Re: Latest Krazy Kevin mag spam comes from teleport.com port In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Mar 1996 15:13:56 CST." <199603182114.PAA06430@ornette.uchicago.edu> Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:00:41 -0800 From: George Herbert Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have already contacted Teleport (and their upstream; I was having temporary problems resolving the in-addr lookup on who owned that particular chunk of IP space, so I contacted RGnet's coordinator, Randy Bush...). They haven't let me know they've found the account yet, but they are aware... -george From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 15:09:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA04551 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:59:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sunic.sunet.se (sunic.sunet.se [192.36.125.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA04534 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE by sunic.sunet.se (8.6.8/2.03) id XAA10280; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:56:07 +0100 Received: by Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Sun-4/630, SunOS 4.1.2) with sendmail 5.61-bind 1.5+ida/ICU/DoCS id AA13154; Mon, 18 Mar 96 23:56:05 +0100 Date: Mon, 18 Mar 96 23:56:05 +0100 Message-Id: <9603182256.AA13154@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE> From: Per Starback Cc: ckk@uchicago.edu To: spam@zorch.sf-bay.org, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <199603182114.PAA06430@ornette.uchicago.edu> (ckk@uchicago.edu) Subject: Re: Latest Krazy Kevin mag spam comes from teleport.com port Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Chris Koenigsberg wrote: > Someone just reported it again on the list-managers list and > apparently wasn't familiar with the history (is there a Web page on > Krazy Kev anywhere?). http://math-www.uni-paderborn.de/%7Eaxel/BL/#KL950105 -- Per Starback, Uppsala, Sweden. email: starback@minsk.docs.uu.se "Life is but a gamble! Let flipism chart your ramble!" From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 18:47:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA12881 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:17:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA12876 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 18:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: (from neslon@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7/8.7/PanixU1.3) id VAA16334; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:15:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 21:15:40 -0500 (EST) From: Wilson Smith To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Optimal line length for posts to a list Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I help run a list that sends out one post a day -- a news roundup that goes to about 20,000 people. We're trying to figure out the optimal line length and format for the posts; I see the fewest complaints when we send out 50-character lines with hard carriage returns at the end of each line. More characters than that and AOL's mail reader wraps the lines prematurely; we'd rather not wrap the lines at all, except to terminate paragraphs, and let the users' mail readers do it, but when we've tried that, some mail readers (CompuServe's, for instance) seem to insert returns at the 132-character mark, or other arbitrary spots. Is there a consensus on a format that will display decently on the maximum number of mail readers? We don't mind penalizing users of oddball mail readers if the results on a signifigant number of other readers justify it. Note: we use an HTML form to post to the list, a page into which we paste text prepared using MS Word (saved with line breaks and re-opened). Might this be a factor? Thanks, Wilson Smith I bought my gal a herd New York City of moose, one she could neslon@panix.com call her own. http://www.mordor.com/neslon/ -- Bob Dylan From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 19:45:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA18983 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:42:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA18871 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Mon, 18 Mar 96 19:38 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 19:38:13 -0800 (PST) To: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re[2]: mailing list spams In-Reply-To: <4ik9me$jdv@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2-960125-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) on scroll <4ik9me$jdv@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> > True but irrelevant. You can do this without modifying SMTP or > sendmail. Simply grab one of the rule-based SMTP proxies such as > that which comes with socks or the TIS firewall kit, and install it > in front of sendmail. Yes. We use smap/smapd and I thought of that, but I want to do something that would hopefully become an option on Sendmail. As such we could ask the netcom's (nothing against netcom, they are just one of the high profile sites and seem to be a target of this kind of crap) of the world to turn that option on to stop them from being a bounce-off point. This would be much easier than asking them to install smap/smapd to stop this. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Mon Mar 18 22:47:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA04993 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:42:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA04986 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 189; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:40:02 PST Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:39:09 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: morgan@engr.uky.edu CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F8A4.3013E324.189@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"morgan@engr.uky.edu" 18-MAR-1996 10:12:35.42 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams > >>There is one thing that I've been meaning to look into though. Sendmail - > >>the most used MTA on the Internet blindly accepts mail from anybody for > >>anybody. I want to put an end to this. I've been meaning to look into how > >>much work it would be to make Sendmail refuse to accept a peice of mail not > >>destined for a user of any of the domains it is serving. (i.e. the > >>contents of the "w" macro). > > > >Can't do this without changing the standard first -- this is a defined > >feature of SMTP-based mail systems. Probably hopeless. > > This is true, but... > > Nothing stops you from refusing SMTP connections from domains which > harbor spammers. I wonder how the typical provider would handle: > - being told that their domains were refused service, and > - all the complaints from their legitimate customers who > get served off lists as a result. I believe that there are some new reply codes in a later SMTP RFC that address this, but I'd be hard pressed to say which one without a couple of hours of research... I did actually hack my mailer once to refuse connections from a mail bomber, until I could contact his ISP and have his account closed. > The package you're looking for (if you want to do this) is tcpd; > earlier incarnations were known as tcp_wrapper. > BUT, this does not handle the case if you have an offsite MX backup host, unless you control their SMTP access as well. If the sending host cannot connect to you, it'll fail back to the secondary MX host, which will happily deliver mail to you... > --Wes > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 00:17:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA08799 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA08794 for ; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:45:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 159; Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:58 PST Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 23:42:53 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: neslon@panix.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F8AD.16DF7824.159@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Optimal line length for posts to a list Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"neslon@panix.com" 18-MAR-1996 22:08:45.68 > Subj: Optimal line length for posts to a list > I help run a list that sends out one post a day -- a news roundup that > goes to about 20,000 people. > > We're trying to figure out the optimal line length and format for the > posts; I see the fewest complaints when we send out 50-character lines > with hard carriage returns at the end of each line. More characters than > that and AOL's mail reader wraps the lines prematurely; we'd rather not > wrap the lines at all, except to terminate paragraphs, and let the users' > mail readers do it, but when we've tried that, some mail readers > (CompuServe's, for instance) seem to insert returns at the 132-character > mark, or other arbitrary spots. > > Is there a consensus on a format that will display decently on the > maximum number of mail readers? We don't mind penalizing users of oddball > mail readers if the results on a signifigant number of other readers > justify it. > > Note: we use an HTML form to post to the list, a page into which we paste > text prepared using MS Word (saved with line breaks and re-opened). Might > this be a factor? > > Thanks, > > Wilson Smith I bought my gal a herd > New York City of moose, one she could > neslon@panix.com call her own. > http://www.mordor.com/neslon/ -- Bob Dylan Wilson, I tell the people on my lists (and tell them, and tell them, but do they listen? NOOOOO!) - 80 characters max. Preferably 72 characters. There are some oddball programs out there that will happily send a single line that is several hundred characters long... -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 09:45:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA09258 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:22:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from iquest.net (dorite1.iquest.net [206.27.192.75]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09253 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:22:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ind-005-236-198.iquest.net by iquest.net with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #17) id m0tz1Gk-004XQYC; Tue, 19 Mar 96 08:16 EST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Amy Stinson" Organization: Amy's Answers (to what?) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, oliver@panix.com Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 08:14:27 -0700 Subject: Advertising on lists Reply-to: amys@iquest.net X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 17 Mar 96 at 2:39, Oliver Garfield wrote: > While extended material from a subscriber about commercial material they > are offering made become abusive I think there should be some format for > brief announcementa of new products or services that might be useful to > the list subscribers. The announcement you forwarded to the list, IMHO, What I have done for my list is have one day set aside every month where my commercial people can do an "intro" announcing themselves and their products. This is a one time only thing. This announcement goes into an archive and is placed in the archive index that I have available by email. That way it's always available. That same day sales can be announced. Then they have to go back into their corner until the next month. I encourage each and every one of them to put up their own web pages and I provide links to them. I want to provide them every means possible to further their businesses WITHOUT cluttering up the list with their self-proclaimed announcements. My people decided they could deal with a one day a month blast rather than have it trickle in. This is how we keep peace in a very competitive situation. Amy Amy Stinson email: amys@iquest.net agstinso@nyx.net Home Page: http://www.iquest.net/~amys From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 10:20:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA09828 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09728 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:29 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) Cc: morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <0099F8A4.3013E324.189@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Mar 18, 96 10:39:09 pm X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by Henry W. Miller: > > I did actually hack my mailer once to refuse connections from a > mail bomber, until I could contact his ISP and have his account closed. > > BUT, this does not handle the case if you have an offsite MX > backup host, unless you control their SMTP access as well. If the > sending host cannot connect to you, it'll fail back to the secondary MX > host, which will happily deliver mail to you... You seem to be missing my point. I want to change the way SMTP servers on the Internet function. Right now a spammer is free to take advantage of an SMTP server on the Internet and send his spam via somebody who has no resp- onsibility for it. If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed such that only the users of the SMTP server could send and receive mail via that particular server, then spammers would be forced to use the SMTP server of their service provider or connection. This would give the spam-police a clear target to go after to have it stopped. Right now it is too difficult to attach any responsibility the service pro- vider of a spammer. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 14:30:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA22860 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:17:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA22855; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:17:51 -0800 To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell), henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: mailing list spams Cc: morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:29 AM 3/19/96, Brian J. Murrell wrote: >If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed Not a snowball's chance in hell. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 15:00:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA23861 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:49:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com [192.36.125.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA23848 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:49:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603192249.OAA23848@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1744; Tue, 19 Mar 96 23:49:19 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 3501; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:49:19 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:47:49 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) "Brian J. Murrell" said: >If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed ...pigs would fly. Next idea? Eric From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 16:55:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA00340 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from malone.inforamp.net (Malone.InfoRamp.Net [198.53.144.41]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA00331 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:43:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ts9-07.tor.InfoRamp.Net (ts35-02.tor.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.140.102]) by malone.inforamp.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id TAA01478 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603200041.TAA01478@malone.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com From: "David Lloyd-Jones " Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:47 PM 3/19/96 EST, Eric wrote: >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) "Brian J. Murrell" > said: > >>If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > >...pigs would fly. Next idea. Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 17:10:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA29411 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:32:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id QAA29403; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Tue, 19 Mar 96 16:30 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:30:19 -0800 (PST) Cc: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov, morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Brent Chapman" at Mar 19, 96 02:17:51 pm X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by Brent Chapman: > > At 9:29 AM 3/19/96, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > >If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > > Not a snowball's chance in hell. > Ha!! I knew somebody would jump on me for that one. Good for you Brent. :-) I realize that this is not going to happen over night, however if it were rolled into Sendmail, the sendmail-security-bug-of-the-week fix that everybody goes to would enable them to do this kind of connect filtering easily. The big mail hubs would have the new feature soon enough, and the rest of the community could be hounded into it as they become the bounce-off targets of spammers. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 17:31:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA03140 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:27:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sahara.llv.com (llv.chicago.agis.net [205.137.58.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA03135 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (from jim@localhost) by sahara.llv.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA04906; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:24:30 -0800 Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:24:30 -0800 (PST) From: Jim Warren To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Majordomo and virtual domains..... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I am new to this list and to majordomo, so I will apologize in advance if I'm asking this question in the wrong place or for the umpteenth time...if someone could just point me to the right place to look....if not an easy answer! Is it possible to use majordomo handle lists on the same machine for virtual hosts? ie, "drivers@home.com" and also, "drivers@domain1.com" as different lists on the same machine ("home.com")? I do have virtual domains set up and working, but so far can't seem to get the lists to do their thing.....is it "just" a matter of playing with the headers and footers??? All help greatly appreciated... jim@llv.com Jim Warren LogonLasVegas Phone 702-648-0390 From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 17:49:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA02937 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:23:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov (sacusr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA02929 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 37; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:20:43 PST Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:20:38 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F940.DBA163A0.37@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"brian@ilinx.ilinx.com" 19-MAR-1996 09:41:29.44 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams > As enscripted by Henry W. Miller: > > > > I did actually hack my mailer once to refuse connections from a > > mail bomber, until I could contact his ISP and have his account closed. > > > > BUT, this does not handle the case if you have an offsite MX > > backup host, unless you control their SMTP access as well. If the > > sending host cannot connect to you, it'll fail back to the secondary MX > > host, which will happily deliver mail to you... > > You seem to be missing my point. I want to change the way SMTP servers on > the Internet function. Right now a spammer is free to take advantage of an > SMTP server on the Internet and send his spam via somebody who has no resp- > onsibility for it. > OK, yes I did. But as a side note, this is what I had to do at one time to stop a malicious little twerp. > If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed such that only the > users of the SMTP server could send and receive mail via that particular > server, then spammers would be forced to use the SMTP server of their service > provider or connection. This would give the spam-police a clear target to > go after to have it stopped. > I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are saying here. Do you mean that only local users can receive mail, i.e., that the SMTP server will only accept mail for a local user? Then there would have to be a parameter for which domains to allow mail to be accepted for, if you are acting as an MX host for another domain. Secondly, what if the host in question is acting as a mail hub for another domain, i.e., allowing outgoing mail to pass through your hub to the outside world? > Right now it is too difficult to attach any responsibility the service pro- > vider of a spammer. > Agreed. Probably the best interim step is to log every incoming SMTP message by message ID and IP address. > b. > > -- > Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com > InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com > North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX > Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 18:02:06 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA05262 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:58:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cninfo.co.cn (shell.cninfo.co.cn [202.93.0.138]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA05158 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from nw103.cninfo.co.cn (nw103.cninfo.co.cn [202.93.0.103]) by cninfo.co.cn (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id JAA11106; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:55:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199603201555.JAA11106@cninfo.co.cn> To: eric@worldmachine.com From: chenf@shell.cninfo.co.cn (Fraser. Chen) Organization: GT Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:53:31 PST Subject: how to limit posts by subscribers only? Reply-to: chenf@shell.cninfo.co.cn CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.com X-mailer: Mailer v4.2 (R42-1M, 940406) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 12 Mar 96 at 11:40, Eric J. Hansen wrote: >although my lists *are* setup to allow posts by > subscribers only). I am a first hand majordomo user. Would you please tell me how to setup my lists to allow posts by subscribers only? Or post me the gateway programe. >>>>__ Fraser Chen __ <> chenf@cninfo.co.cn >>>> R&D Division [³ÂÀÚ] >>>>Great Trend >>>>Securities Computer Information Co.,Ltd. >>>> Tel. +86-0755-3254099-218 >>>> Fax +86-0755-3202232 From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 18:19:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA05832 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:09:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA05810; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:08:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 28; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:07:07 PST Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:07:03 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM CC: List-Managers@GreatCircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F947.576104E0.28@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"Brent@GreatCircle.COM" 19-MAR-1996 14:31:28.60 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams Brent, > At 9:29 AM 3/19/96, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > >If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > > Not a snowball's chance in hell. > Thanks for the belly laugh of the day - I needed that. (well, almost - I laughed so hard I almost swallowed my cigarette...) > > -Brent > > ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ > Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street > Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 > ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ > Internet Tutorials from the Experts! > -HWM From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 18:45:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA07766 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:37:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com (ilinx.bctel.net [204.174.66.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA07672 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) id ; Tue, 19 Mar 96 18:32 PST Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov (Henry W. Miller) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:32:45 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov In-Reply-To: <0099F940.DBA163A0.37@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> from "Henry W. Miller" at Mar 19, 96 05:20:38 pm X-Phone: '1 604 983 UNIX' Organization: 'InterLinx Support Services, Inc.' X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk As enscripted by Henry W. Miller: > I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are saying > here. Do you mean that only local users can receive mail, i.e., that > the SMTP server will only accept mail for a local user? Yes, plus... > Then there > would have to be a parameter for which domains to allow mail to be > accepted for, if you are acting as an MX host for another domain. Yes. One could use a macro in a similar mannar as the `w' macro. Or a sendmail could ask it's DNS if it is MX'ing for the host that is on the RHS of the @ in the MAIL FROM command. > Secondly, what if the host in question is acting as a mail hub > for another domain, i.e., allowing outgoing mail to pass through your > hub to the outside world? That would require the macro as above. > Agreed. Probably the best interim step is to log every incoming > SMTP message by message ID and IP address. Unfortunately that can be somewhat resource intensive and my feeling is that people would resist it. The Received headers of a message should suffice though. If I wanted to use some.smtp.server.com as my bounce-off SMTP server, I can forge all the headers I want, but if the Received header attached by server.com includes where it got the mail from, there is not much I can do about it. The problem with that method of tracing is that server.com would invariably get dragged into the hunt. Not necessarily their problem, UNLESS of course there was a Sendmail that would prevent them from being abused but they chose not to use it. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 19:45:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA11654 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA11571 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:42:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17701; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:38:50 PST Received: from gnsmp-gw by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 19 Mar 96 19:38:50 PST Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11863; Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:38:49 PST Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 19:38:49 PST From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9603200338.AA11863@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >>If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > >...pigs would fly. Next idea. > > Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. You mean, whiz-bang, fancy, state-of-the-art software for individual computers last six months. Software that talks to other computers using international standards can easily be six years old. Especially the low-level, isolated-from-the-user, worker programs. -Joe From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 20:30:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA14354 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:17:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ecsvax.uncecs.edu (ecsvax.uncecs.edu [152.4.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA14349 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:16:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by ecsvax.uncecs.edu (5.65/tas-gen/may94) id AA26318; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:15:16 -0500 From: "Byron C. Howes" Message-Id: <9603200415.AA26318@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: dlj@inforamp.net (David Lloyd-Jones) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 23:15:16 EST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com In-Reply-To: <199603200041.TAA01478@malone.inforamp.net>; from "David Lloyd-Jones" at Mar 19, 96 7:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk David Lloyd-Jones writes: > At 11:47 PM 3/19/96 EST, Eric wrote: > >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) "Brian J. Murrell" > > said: > > > >>If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > > > >...pigs would fly. Next idea. > > > Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. ...but sendmail is forever. --Byron From list-managers-owner Tue Mar 19 23:15:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA25589 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:08:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA25584; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:08:06 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:08:04 -0800 To: Jim Warren , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Majordomo and virtual domains..... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 5:24 PM 3/19/96, Jim Warren wrote: >I am new to this list and to majordomo, so I will apologize in advance if >I'm asking this question in the wrong place or for the umpteenth >time...if someone could just point me to the right place to look....if >not an easy answer! The right place to ask is Majordomo-Users@GreatCircle.COM. I'll answer here, though, since it's more of a Sendmail hack than a Majordomo hack, and the trick is equally applicable to doing similar things with other list management systems. >Is it possible to use majordomo handle lists on the same machine for >virtual hosts? ie, "drivers@home.com" and also, "drivers@domain1.com" as >different lists on the same machine ("home.com")? Yes. One machine here used to handle 3 simultaneous sets of lists: @greatcircle.com, @ca0408.cap.gov, and @postmodern.com >I do have virtual >domains set up and working, Sendmail didn't have this feature when I set this up, so I don't know how to make it work with that; I handled it through a sendmail.cf hack that recognized certain special left-hand-side addresses, and remapped them to something unique. I.e., if I told it that "majordomo" was one of the addresses that was supposed to be different among the 3 domains, it would remap as follows: majordomo@greatcircle.com -> majordomo.greatcircle majordomo@ca0408.cap.gov -> majordomo.ca0408 majordomo@postmodern.com -> majordomo.postmodern Then, I simply created 3 separate /etc/aliases entries, "majordomo.greatcircle", "majordomo.ca0408", and "majordomo.postmodern". >but so far can't seem to get the lists to do >their thing.....is it "just" a matter of playing with the headers and >footers??? All help greatly appreciated... You need a separate majordomo.cf file for each domain, which in turn leads to a separate mail area (what would normally be your equivalent of /usr/local/mail). -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 00:00:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id XAA28836 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id XAA28820 for ; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:51:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 23; Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:49:29 PST Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:49:17 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F977.265A3440.23@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"brian@ilinx.ilinx.com" 19-MAR-1996 18:49:43.29 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams > As enscripted by Henry W. Miller: (enscripted - I like that. Probably one of the nicest things anyone has said about me today...) > > I'm having trouble understanding exactly what you are saying > > here. Do you mean that only local users can receive mail, i.e., that > > the SMTP server will only accept mail for a local user? > > Yes, plus... > > > Then there > > would have to be a parameter for which domains to allow mail to be > > accepted for, if you are acting as an MX host for another domain. > > Yes. One could use a macro in a similar mannar as the `w' macro. Or a > sendmail could ask it's DNS if it is MX'ing for the host that is on the RHS > of the @ in the MAIL FROM command. > > > Secondly, what if the host in question is acting as a mail hub > > for another domain, i.e., allowing outgoing mail to pass through your > > hub to the outside world? > > That would require the macro as above. > Thanks for that info. I don't consider myself a sendmail wizard in any sense of the word. Hardly even a sorcerer's apprentice. In fact, I avoid it like the plauge, using smail when I have to set up mail on a unix system. My mail mail hub is a VAXCluster running MX. > > Agreed. Probably the best interim step is to log every incoming > > SMTP message by message ID and IP address. > > Unfortunately that can be somewhat resource intensive and my feeling is that > people would resist it. The Received headers of a message should suffice > though. If I wanted to use some.smtp.server.com as my bounce-off SMTP server, > I can forge all the headers I want, but if the Received header attached by > server.com includes where it got the mail from, there is not much I can do > about it. > Unless somebody has managed to subvert the in-addr.arpa zone, and that is a streach... But even logging the IP address using tcpd would not take much overhead, and would provide some sort of audit trail. > The problem with that method of tracing is that server.com would invariably get > dragged into the hunt. Not necessarily their problem, UNLESS of course there > was a Sendmail that would prevent them from being abused but they chose not > to use it. > Well, the broader question I think that has to be asked is what we, the network management community is doing to stop this sort of behavior. Are we getting involved with the IETF to help form new standards that will make mail forging more difficult? If we aren't part of the solution, then we are part of the problem... > b. > > -- > Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com > InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com > North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX > Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD On that note, goodnight, -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 00:19:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA00266 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:13:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA00261 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 22; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:11:12 PST Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:10:58 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F97A.2DEB9570.22@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"brian@ilinx.ilinx.com" 19-MAR-1996 19:42:35.44 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams > As enscripted by Brent Chapman: > > > > At 9:29 AM 3/19/96, Brian J. Murrell wrote: > > > > >If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > > > > Not a snowball's chance in hell. > > > Ha!! I knew somebody would jump on me for that one. Good for you Brent. :-) > I realize that this is not going to happen over night, however if it were > rolled into Sendmail, the sendmail-security-bug-of-the-week fix that everybody > goes to would enable them to do this kind of connect filtering easily. The > big mail hubs would have the new feature soon enough, and the rest of the > community could be hounded into it as they become the bounce-off targets of > spammers. > > b. > That's the ticket - make it like a rider bill in Congress, the way they shoved the "decency" crap into the Telecommunications Act... > -- > Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com > InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com > North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX > Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 00:45:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA01221 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:32:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov (sacmgr.mp.usbr.gov [140.214.12.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA01214 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 46; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:30:00 PST Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 00:29:57 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: bch@uncecs.edu CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <0099F97C.D48581F0.46@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"bch@uncecs.edu" 19-MAR-1996 21:22:09.78 > Subj: Re: mailing list spams > David Lloyd-Jones writes: > > At 11:47 PM 3/19/96 EST, Eric wrote: > > >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:29:20 -0800 (PST) "Brian J. Murrell" > > > said: > > > > > >>If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed > > > > > >...pigs would fly. Next idea. > > > > > > Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. > > ...but sendmail is forever. > Unfortunately... At least dinosaur doo became oil... > --Byron -HWM From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 02:03:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA05262 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.mod.uk (relay.mod.uk [192.5.29.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id BAA05248 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:47:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from hermes.dra.hmg.gb by relay.mod.uk with local SMTP id ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:45:01 +0000 Received: from wandle.dra.hmg.gb by hermes.dra.hmg.gb (MX V4.1 VAX) with SMTP; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:44:23 GMT Received: from rivers.dra.hmg.gb by wandle.dra.hmg.gb with smtp(Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0tzKQy-0007V6C; Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:44 WET X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.5 12/11/95 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Organization: Open Software Systems Group, DRA Malvern, UK Subject: BoS: Time Editor Mailbombed (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:44:00 +0000 Message-ID: <7324.827315040@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> From: Christopher Samuel Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The following article from the best-of-security mailing list is an interesting addendum to the mass of forged subscriptions that have been ongoing. It tells what it was like to be on the receiving end of the attacks. Chris ------- Forwarded Message Date: 20 Mar 1996 01:33:53 -0500 Subject: BoS: Time Editor Mailbombed From: David Kennedy <76702.3557@compuserve.com> To: , Message-ID: <960320063352_76702.3557_CHN19-2@CompuServe.COM> With permission from the Time article's original author (repost permitted in total with attribution to Mr. Elmer-Dewitt and Time) In alt.2600, destiny@crl.com (David Cassel) wrote: Philip "Cyberporn" Elmer-DeWitt posted this in several newsgroups before it came out in today's "Time" magazine. Anybody know anything about this? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [The following is copyright material from the 3/18/96 issue of TIME, reposted by permission.] I've Been Spammed! An insidious E-mail bomb targets the President, two hacker magazines and a TIME senior editor The first sign that something was wrong came Sunday afternoon, when I logged on to the Internet to check my weekend E-mail and found that someone had enrolled me in a Barry Manilow fan club, a Mercedes owners' discussion group, a Fiji Islands appreciation society, and 103 other Internet mailing lists I'd never heard of. I knew from experience that any one of these lists can generate 50 messages a day. To avoid a deluge of junk E-mail, I painstakingly unsubscribed from all 106--even Barry Manilow's--only to log on Monday morning and discover I'd been subscribed overnight to 1,700 more. My file of unread E-mail had swelled to 16 megabytes, and was growing by the minute. I'd heard about "spam"--Internet jargon for machine-generated junk mail--and over the years I've received my share of E-mail chain letters, get-rich-quick pitches and cheesy magazine ads. But I had never experienced anything like this: a parade of mail that just got bigger and bigger, like Mickey's brooms in Fantasia. Not only was I getting hundreds of subscription notices, but I was receiving copies of every piece of mail posted to those lists. By Monday the E-mail was pouring in at the rate of four a minute, 240 an hour, 5,760 a day. The rest of the week was what my parents used to call a learning experience. The first thing I learned was how little I knew about Internet mailing lists. They don't get as much press as the more glamorous World Wide Web, but these lists are every bit as active and in some ways much more satisfying. Subscribing to a good mailing list is like entering into heartfelt correspondence with world-class letter writers. Every day brings a fresh crop of E-mail from people who share your particular obsessions, be they garden herbs or firearms or the novels of Anne Rice. And if you ever tire of their daily epistles, you simply unsubscribe--that is, if you remember to save the sign-off instructions. The next thing I learned was that I was not alone. Thirty-five other Internet addresses were targeted last week, ranging from the prestigious resident@whitehouse. gov to the evocative rage@us.disarray.com. The victims included the New York Times' chief Silicon Valley reporter, two leading hacker magazines, a couple of interns at mtv and a man who once ran a Hell's Angels computer bulletin board. Gene Steinberg, a free-lance writer from Scottsdale, Arizona, is convinced he made the hit list because he publicly defended America Online on a Usenet newsgroup called alt.aol.sucks. "This is clearly someone who's got too much time on his hands," says hacker Emmanuel Goldstein, publisher of 2600 magazine, who got hit twice (in his letters and articles mailboxes) and would have been struck a third time if the perpetrator hadn't misspelled his name. Goldstein wrote a simple program that canceled most of his subscriptions. "It's like stepping in dog droppings," he says. "You change your shoes and get on with your day." The rest of us are not so adept. The White House called in the Secret Service. I had to get help from my local Internet provider, which managed to reduce the flow to about 50 messages an hour. Who knows what's going on at the congressional E-mailbox of Newt Gingrich, another victim. He has an automated reply program that answers every E-mail that comes in. At week's end, millions of his form letters were still being beamed to Internet users all over the world. --By Philip Elmer-DeWitt Copyright Time Inc. 1996. All rights reserved. -- Philip Elmer-DeWitt ped@well.com TIME Magazine www.pathfinder.com V/R Dave Kennedy [US Army MP] [CISSP] 23:28:41 on 19-Mar-1996 using Windows NavCIS PRO SO 1.1/1.62 ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 02:33:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id CAA06544 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (vm.se.lsoft.com [192.36.125.16]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA06521 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 02:05:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199603201005.CAA06521@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 1931; Wed, 20 Mar 96 11:05:21 EST Received: from VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (NJE origin ERIC@SEARN) by VM.SE.LSOFT.COM (LMail V1.2b/1.8b) with RFC822 id 3876; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:05:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:03:34 EST From: Eric Thomas Subject: Re: mailing list spams To: list-managers@GreatCircle.Com In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:37 -0500 (EST) from list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:37 -0500 (EST) "David Lloyd-Jones " said: >Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. Ok. Call Sun, the #1 provider of unix boxes, and buy their last model, whatever it is, the one with the top specint and all that jazz. Brand new. Then take a look at sendmail and tell me when exactly in the 80s the version they are using was compiled. Eric From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 04:33:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id EAA14543 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:17:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from malone.inforamp.net (Malone.InfoRamp.Net [198.53.144.41]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id EAA14522 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 04:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ts25-13.tor.InfoRamp.Net (ts18-14.tor.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.138.174]) by malone.inforamp.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id HAA12792 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:15:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:15:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603201215.HAA12792@malone.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-managers@GreatCircle.Com From: "David Lloyd-Jones " Subject: Re: mailing list spams Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:03 AM 3/20/96 EST, Eric Thomas wrote: >On Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:41:37 -0500 (EST) "David Lloyd-Jones >" > said: > >>Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. > >Ok. Call Sun, the #1 provider of unix boxes, and buy their last model, >whatever it is, the one with the top specint and all that jazz. Brand >new. Then take a look at sendmail and tell me when exactly in the 80s the >version they are using was compiled. > > Eric > Mine is February 16, 1994, under SunOS 5.4 -- but on one of the older Sun Unixboxes on the net, probably in the most ancient decile. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 06:36:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA25325 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lokkur.dexter.mi.us (lokkur.dexter.mi.us [148.59.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA25294 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:25:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (from scs@localhost) by lokkur.dexter.mi.us (8.7.5/8.7.5) id JAA13088; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:22:47 -0500 (EST) To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Path: lokkur.dexter.mi.us!not-for-mail From: scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) Newsgroups: local.list-managers Subject: Re: mailing list spams Date: 20 Mar 1996 09:22:47 -0500 Organization: Inland Sea Lines: 13 Distribution: local Message-ID: <4ip4bn$cot@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> References: <199603200041.TAA01478@malone.inforamp.net> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #2 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "David Lloyd-Jones " writes: >>>If all of the SMTP servers on the Internet were changed >>...pigs would fly. Next idea. >Hunh? Hardware lasts two years. Software six months. How old is sendmail again? Something over a decade, anyway. -- Not all wisdom is on the web. A large amount is still only available through FTP... -- Bill Leininger (whl@mcs.com) From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 07:10:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA26793 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:48:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA26768 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:48:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from hal-ham-g01-u01 (i486nt01.harte-lyne.ca) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA212333322; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:48:42 -0500 Message-Id: <31501C07.2209@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:53:59 -0500 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Warren Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Majordomo and virtual domains..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk To support virtual hosting you need a version of sendmail which supports mailer tables and you need to hack your rewite rule sets to handle it. If you do both of these things then it should be possible to do what you are asking. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 08:16:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA00964 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:11:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom17.netcom.com (netcom17.netcom.com [192.100.81.130]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA00958 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id IAA17670; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:08:58 -0800 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:08:57 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: BoS: Time Editor Mailbombed (fwd) To: Christopher Samuel cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <7324.827315040@rivers.dra.hmg.gb> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Christopher Samuel wrote: > In alt.2600, destiny@crl.com (David Cassel) wrote: > Anybody know anything about this? > The rest of us are not so adept. The White House called in the Secret > Service. I had to get help from my local Internet provider, which managed to I didn't know that the sysadmin at whitehouse.org was a member of the secret service. << OTOH, considering that the message they sent me, was a request to unsubscribe several people becasue they didn't know how to unsubscribe people from mailing lists, s/he could be. >> xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com Owner: Graphology-L@Bolis-com From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 08:31:08 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA00919 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from leibniz.math.psu.edu (leibniz.math.psu.edu [146.186.130.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA00897 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:09:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from augusta.math.psu.edu (augusta.math.psu.edu [146.186.132.2]) by leibniz.math.psu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA11750 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:08:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (barr@localhost) by augusta.math.psu.edu (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA08269 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:07:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603201607.LAA08269@augusta.math.psu.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailing list spams In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:03:34 EST." <199603201005.CAA06521@miles.greatcircle.com> References: <199603201005.CAA06521@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Face: $+9-wYg.[->94HJ{go[7Q]E!K&hUg7ZhLyCMyq_FU*ca0GazE>^/2BKLcK0bP-'%;Nn?M+am,jlSP>1K$iz@ %'v'FEW{@](U&Ed/}>ju3Ctlr!XwJ27Q)7h2a%"`sz;j:/3EC[mXi@*X@HE1]'ddq$ZX"ePsMyTkeg >zdML.SVvX1W`adGIUD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:07:13 -0500 From: Dave Barr Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199603201005.CAA06521@miles.greatcircle.com>, Eric Thomas writes: >Ok. Call Sun, the #1 provider of unix boxes, and buy their last model, >whatever it is, the one with the top specint and all that jazz. Brand >new. Then take a look at sendmail and tell me when exactly in the 80s the >version they are using was compiled. 198F. (1995) But your point is valid, Sun historically has been far behind on sendmail and BIND/resolver updates. --Dave From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 08:50:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA02106 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:32:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from hades.wvs.com (hades.wvs.com [204.247.81.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id IAA02101 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sol.wvs.com (sol.wvs.com [204.247.80.10]) by hades.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA05084 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from zorch.sf-bay.org (Uzorch@localhost) by sol.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with UUCP id IAA26996 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:30:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sol.wvs.com: Uzorch set sender to zorch.sf-bay.org!news using -f Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id IAA08929 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:26:15 -0800 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: mailing list spams Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199603201005.CAA06521@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:26:12 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Ok. Call Sun, [...] Then take a look at sendmail and tell me when exactly in >the 80s the version they are using was compiled. UltraSparcs run on Solaris 2.5 (or better) and 2.5 is shipping with sendmail 8.6, at least. Or maybe that's the Netra package. Anyway, one of those two came with 8.6 and BIND 4.9.something. It's a big improvement. \scott From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 09:35:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA05313 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA05308; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:24:20 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:24:18 -0800 To: Reagan Blundell From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Majordomo and virtual domains..... Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 6:33 PM 3/20/96, Reagan Blundell wrote: >Brent Chapman wrote: > >> >I do have virtual >> >domains set up and working, >> >> Sendmail didn't have this feature when I set this up, so I don't know how >> to make it work with that; I handled it through a sendmail.cf hack that >> recognized certain special left-hand-side addresses, and remapped them to >> something unique. I.e., if I told it that "majordomo" was one of the >> addresses that was supposed to be different among the 3 domains, it would >> remap as follows: >> >> majordomo@greatcircle.com -> majordomo.greatcircle >> majordomo@ca0408.cap.gov -> majordomo.ca0408 >> majordomo@postmodern.com -> majordomo.postmodern >> >> Then, I simply created 3 separate /etc/aliases entries, >> "majordomo.greatcircle", "majordomo.ca0408", and "majordomo.postmodern". > >Any pointers to the sendmail.cf mods needed to implement something >like this? It's part of a series of hacks to my sendmail.cf file that I've developed over the years; let me see if I can isolate just those changes. No guarantees; you'll have to play with this in your own environment to get it to work. Basicly, I define 2 classes: CY contains the list of "alternate" domains that this host masquerades as, and CZ contains the list of addresses that are different among those domains. For example: CY ca0408.cap.gov postmodern.com CZ majordomo majordomo-owner CZ bounces bounces-owner bounces-approval CZ postmaster root So, the lines above mean that "majordomo@greatcircle.com" (which is the main domain, and so doesn't need to be listed in the CY class) is going to be handled differently from "majordomo@ca0408.cap.gov", which is going to be treated differently from "majordomo@postmodern.com". Then, in rule set S0, near the top, where it's figuring out whether or not a given address is local, I add the following rule: R$=Z<@$=Y> $#local $:$1.$2 majordomo@ca0408.cap.gov This rule maps "majordomo@ca0408.cap.gov" to "majordomo.ca0408.cap.gov", for example, so I need to be sure I have a "majordomo.ca0408.cap.gov" alias in my /etc/aliases file. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 10:50:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA08965 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from panix2.panix.com (panix2.panix.com [198.7.0.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA08947 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from oliver@localhost) by panix2.panix.com (8.7/8.7/PanixU1.3) id NAA20855; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:17:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:17:43 -0500 (EST) From: Oliver Garfield To: "Brian J. Murrell" cc: "Henry W. Miller" , morgan@engr.uky.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailing list spams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In your mailing you make reference to the "spam-police". What do you mean exactly: the self policing actvities of list members or some other entity? Actually it is not against any law to send out an advertising message to a list to the best of my knowledge. *********************************************************************** *Oliver Garfield email: oliver@panix.com * *World Health Foundation phone: 212-877-4230 * *125 Riverside Drive * *New York, NY 10024 * * * *********************************************************************** From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 11:48:57 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA13780 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sws5.ctd.ornl.gov (sws5.ctd.ornl.gov [128.219.128.125]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA13775 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:37:44 -0800 (PST) From: de5@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 3995); 20 Mar 1996 19:35:58 GMT Date: 20 Mar 1996 19:35:57 GMT Message-ID: <19960320193557.22889.qmail@sws5.ctd.ornl.gov> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailing list spams In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM Version 5.95 (beta) with XEmacs 19.13 of Fri Sep 1 1995 on sgi0 (irix) [formerly Lucid Emacs] Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, Tenn., USA X-Face: "p~Q]mg{;e*}YR|)&Q/&Q\*~5UWfZX34;5M >Ha!! I knew somebody would jump on me for that one. Good for you Brent. :-) >I realize that this is not going to happen over night, however if it were >rolled into Sendmail, the sendmail-security-bug-of-the-week fix that everybody >goes to would enable them to do this kind of connect filtering easily. The >big mail hubs would have the new feature soon enough, and the rest of the >community could be hounded into it as they become the bounce-off targets of >spammers. The feature you want--the ability to disable proxy mail delivery for non-local domains--is already built into qmail, a new MTA written by Dan Bernstein. From the qmail HOWTO file: >9. I don't want people using this host as a relay: if a message comes in >by SMTP, and isn't for a local address, it should bounce. How can I set >that up? > >Answer: Put the allowed hosts into /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts. You may >want to simply ln -s locals /var/qmail/control/rcpthosts, if you aren't >using virtualdomains. qmail is only in beta test right now, but it's very solid, fast, powerful, and, best of all, *very* secure. If you want to quit the Sendmail-Bug-of-the-Week Club, look at qmail and do what you can to help it catch on--beta test it and tell other people about it. If you're interested, join the beta tester's list: echo subscribe | mail djb-qmailbeta-request@koobera.math.uic.edu From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 13:48:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA15953 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:31:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:31:55 -0800 (PST) From: list-managers-owner Message-Id: <199603202131.NAA15953@miles.greatcircle.com> From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 16:01:23 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id PAA25915 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:26:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rigel.callemx.com ([206.88.72.240]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA25883 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:26:34 -0800 (PST) From: Donald Loughlin X-Mailer: SCO OpenServer Mail Release 5.0 To: oliver@panix.com Subject: Re: mailing list spams Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 18:25:39 EST Message-ID: <9603201825.aa19412@rigel.callemx.com> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk on 20 March, Oliver Garfield wrote: >In your mailing you make reference to the "spam-police". What do you mean >exactly: the self policing actvities of list members or some other >entity? Actually it is not against any law to send out an advertising >message to a list to the best of my knowledge. Thanks for a little sanity regarding advertising e-mail. To listen to the recient dialog on the Majordomo list I was begining to think that all commercial ventures were to be despised and eradicated from cyberspace. Certanly bogus messages should be tracked down and the offenders restricted, but legimitate announcements for items or services _relivent_ to a list should not be attacked automatically. Netiquite requires that local custom be observed in this matter, but all to often, no guidence is offered. Subscribers could be given some idea if they could post *short* announcements to the list without offending everyone. Maybee I am being a little naive to think that a community as large and diverse as the net, could excersize enough *self* control so as to not cause all commercial mail to be branded SPAM. Please, this is only MHO and is not an attack on anyone that has expressed another view. I look forward to hints and tips on making lists more responsive to *bad* mail, while keeping the noise level to a dull roar. I fear what I may have started here, please be gentle. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- SSSSS M M CCCCC SSSSS Donald Loughlin donl@callemx.com S MM MM C S Super Micro Computer Systems SSSSS M M M C SSSSS 6 Essex Drive S M M C S Hauppauge NY 11788 SSSSS M M CCCCC SSSSS +1 516 582 3404 FAX +1 516 234 6943 From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 17:33:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA03832 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:05:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from malone.inforamp.net (Malone.InfoRamp.Net [198.53.144.41]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA03789 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ts31-16.tor.InfoRamp.Net (ts31-16.tor.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.140.36]) by malone.inforamp.net (8.7/8.7) with SMTP id UAA03611 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:04:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 20:04:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603210104.UAA03611@malone.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-managers@GreatCircle.Com From: "David Lloyd-Jones " Subject: Law, peril etc. Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 01:17 PM 3/20/96 -0500, Oliver Garfield feyly wrote: >In your mailing you make reference to the "spam-police". What do you mean >exactly: the self policing actvities of list members or some other >entity? Actually it is not against any law to send out an advertising >message to a list to the best of my knowledge. Depends what you call a law, dunnit. There is no New York State or City ordinance against it. On the other hand there is no Net ukase on littering Riverside Drive. It wouldn't be applicable. The laws in each case seem pretty clear to me, even if I don't kow very much about the enforcment mechanisms for littering in front of your building. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 20 18:52:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA09968 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca (hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca [205.206.207.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA09933 for ; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 18:36:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from ham_hal_g02_u01 ([205.206.207.30]) by hahp9k.harte-lyne.ca with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA271295756; Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:35:56 -0500 Message-Id: <3150C026.126C@harte-lyne.ca> Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 21:34:14 -0500 From: "James B. Byrne" Organization: Harte & Lyne Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Loughlin Cc: oliver@panix.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailing list spams References: <9603201825.aa19412@rigel.callemx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Donald Loughlin wrote: > > ......but legimitate announcements for items or > services _relivent_ to a list should not be attacked automatically. > Netiquite requires that local custom be observed in this matter, but > all to often, no guidence is offered. Subscribers could be given some > idea if they could post *short* announcements to the list without > offending everyone. > > Maybee I am being a little naive to think that a community as > large and diverse as the net, could excersize enough *self* control > so as to not cause all commercial mail to be branded SPAM. > I don't have a problem with commercial use of mailing lists per se, but I do have a problem with unauthorised use of ANY list for ANY purpose which is not contained in the charter for that list or for its accepted purpose where a charter does not exist. If a business wishes to use a commercial mailing list they expect to pay a fair price for each and every name on that list. Why would anyone who is using an e-mail list for commercial purposes expect any different rules to apply? Just because they can do it? This makes it right? They have a 'right' to misuse somebody else's property for their own purposes? And make no mistake about it, a subscription list is property. If you want to post to a list for a purpose other than that the list exists for, then contact the list owner and ask permission. If permission is withheld then accept the decision and try something else. Don't spew first and try and be polite after the fact. -- James B. Byrne mailto:byrnejb@harte-lyne.ca Harte & Lyne Limited http://www.harte-lyne.ca Hamilton, Ontario 905-561-1241 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 21 07:32:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA00547 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from newfed.FRB.GOV (newfed.frb.gov [198.3.221.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA00536 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from FRB.GOV by newfed.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA04614; Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:05:27 EST Received: from irmmp1.FRB.GOV by frbgate.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA02882; Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:01:04 EST Received: from localhost by irmmp1.FRB.GOV (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA07217; Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:01:04 EST Message-Id: <9603211501.AA07217@irmmp1.FRB.GOV> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: Donald Loughlin Subject: Re: mailing list spams Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Mar 96 10:01:03 -0500 From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My mail box (snail mail, not email) has become a trash can due to the pricing policy of the USPS and advertisers' desire to send me their junk mail. I dont want to see the same thing happen to my e-mail. Commerical posting guidelines can be very simple: make it short, make it relevant, send it only when the product has changed significantly (not detroit's new barke light design, new color == new product.) Get your product listed in the FAQ for the list. No FAQ? Start one, then maintain it. List your competitors products as well, if they request to be included in the FAQ. List yours FIRST! In short, with e-mail the recipient of "junk e-mail" can respond effectively to spam, unlike snail-mail. Therefore, tread lightly. Advertising mail exists at the sufferance of the mailing list admin. Dont alienate the admin or the list members through inappropriate mailings. If I sound a little (a lot?) shrill. I feel strongly about this issue. I maintains lists with over 10,000 direct subscribers. Some of those are mail exploders. One spam results in an e-mail from two. The second spam results in that domain being screened from the list. I have enforced this policy twice in over a year. One person conformed to the list policy and is now welcome. The other is still blocked. He is not missed. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler 202-452-2931 breslerj@frb.gov MS-169, Federal Reserve Board of Governors, Washington DC 20551 I am speaking for myself only, not the Federal Reserve Board of Governors From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 21 11:01:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id KAA11099 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:22:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id KAA11079 for ; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id MAA04818; Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:14:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199603211814.MAA04818@schoneal.com> Subject: latest spam - my response To: breslerj@FRB.GOV Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:14:33 -0600 (CST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, donl@callemx.com In-Reply-To: <9603211501.AA07217@irmmp1.FRB.GOV> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Mar 21, 96 10:01:03 am From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Somehow, a spam got through PSU's listserv to the iaug-l list, despite being flagged as a spam and held back. I not only brought that to PSU's attention, I sent the following note to all the (4!) addresses in the spam and its headers: |Email lists on the net are generally not for commercial |use. Mass mailing them like this without even asking |permission of the owner is one of the most loathed |actions on the net. It ranks right with knocking on |someone's door and urinating on their foot. You have |just annoyed a large number of people, who will, I can |promise you, never *ever* consider buying anything from |you because of this behavior. | |If you haven't sense enough to cease this practice, |then please remove the iaug-l list *at once* from any |list you have - with one exception. Please add it to |a list of groups not to send to, EVER. | |Thank you, |Miles O'Neal, |annoyed list manager. Finally, I copied this to the list, along with a list of the 4 addresses, and suggested people let the spammers know how they felt. I inherited this list, so I neither chose the software nor have any control over it. Overall, it's worked well - few spams have made it past the gateway. Of the people who've asked permission to post to the list, I gave it to one (relevant posting), and explained to the other why it wasn't acceptable - they understood and were OK with the decision. With both of them I was very polite. But with spammers I have little patience. -Miles From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 23 09:56:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA22435 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:49:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA22430 for ; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 09:49:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by homer.louisville.edu; (5.65v3.0/1.1.8.2/03Jun94-0854PM) id AA06671; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:47:14 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 12:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: "Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Majordomo and virtual domains..... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 20 Mar 1996, Brent Chapman wrote: > It's part of a series of hacks to my sendmail.cf file that I've developed > over the years; let me see if I can isolate just those changes. No > guarantees; you'll have to play with this in your own environment to get it > to work. Hello all, I am pleased to see this topic arise. I am presently about to move four or five mailing lists (currently run through Mdomo) to a machine that will be servicing at least two domains and several machine names... Recently, I've been doing some consulting for a firm...a portion of which involved setting up email services for a company, as well as another company who is "riding the coattails" of the other. The primary company owns the machine, and it responds primarily to their domain. The secondary company is to be a virtual domain. Obviously, since both companies wanted various standard email addresses (webmaster, postmaster, etc.), I had to implement virtual mail hosting. I did not, however, want to do a class replacement that then relied on the aliases file -- as Brent has suggested -- and here is why... *outgoing* email needed to reverse resolve the same addresses. For example: othercom@some.where.com is the service account for the secondary company. When someone sent email to webmaster@other.com, it should go to othercom@some.where.com. Easy enough with class replacements and aliases, but it only works one way... How to get the outgoing email to be rewritten? DBM lookups in ruleset 1 for sendmail. To use the same method for incoming mail, use DBM lookups in ruleset 2 for sendmail. That way, when someone sends mail to webmaster@other.com, it goes to othercom@some.where.com. And if othercom@some.where.com replies, then it is sent as the original address: webmaster@other.com. I've implemented this routine for the my customers, and they are quite pleased with the results. Obviously, support scripts to maintain the DBM lookup tables also had to be written. Obviously, this involves having two levels of aliasing available: forward only with the aliases file, and forward and reverse with the DBM lookup tables. My question for Brent (and everyone else as well), is this: does this present major problems when using some listserving software (in this case, Mdomo)? Theoretically, I could have a forward lookup table that resolved: majordomo@other.com -> "wrapper... blah blah blah" some-list@other.com -> "wrapper resend ... blah blah blah" And then when Mdomo resent the mail, the outgoing lookups would be resolved as: majordomo-other@some.where.com -> majordomo@other.com some-unique-list@some.where.com -> some-list@other.com This way, you get both incoming and outgoing handled at the MTA level, with less tweaking at the Mdomo level...theoretically. I've found that forward DBM lookups are common (especially with ISPs), but reverses are not (at least the information was not readily available on the net that I could find)...why? Has anyone implemented something similar to the above in practice? If so, does it work successfully? What is the scalability of such a system like for heavily loaded machines? Is it possible to simply hack the aliases file to allow "@" in the LHS? Is it possible to use the DBM lookups *only* when necessary (perhaps with a class macro)? These are all issues (and there are probably more) to using such a system. It just seems easier to me on the administration end. Any comments, suggestions, et cetera? Jason + Jason A. Dour a.k.a. Dark Father Amadeus Finger for Geek Code, + | jadour01@homer.louisville.edu general info, and | | HP: http://www.louisville.edu/~jadour01/ my PGP public key... | + Visit my WWW site for *TONS* of PJ Harvey material. + -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by mkpgp1.6, a Pine/PGP interface. iQCVAwUBMVQ4/po1JaC71RLxAQEbQAP/aocOd9JEzRO81o5kk9Sf1DuWDEEtF4mK nDenbmiMh8IXugVNGriw6FKEBczFjGFNR/h1Z35+tN++sAOjwvXbjDp8V0tLavC1 TXfckOh64hmxJIv7y1PiDv69qhgLXZO/eFmE0uIZbUwtnmwKinBT+iCrhci2EZYF ga+hs609o1U= =QRyR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From list-managers-owner Sat Mar 23 14:20:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA06122 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:30:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.42] (pb520.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.42]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA06117; Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:30:24 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 13:30:14 -0800 To: "Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus" , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Majordomo and virtual domains..... Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 12:47 PM 3/23/96, "Jason A. Dour aka Dark Father Amadeus" My question for Brent (and everyone else as well), is this: does >this present major problems when using some listserving software (in this >case, Mdomo)? Theoretically, I could have a forward lookup table that >resolved: > > majordomo@other.com -> "wrapper... blah blah blah" > some-list@other.com -> "wrapper resend ... blah blah blah" > >And then when Mdomo resent the mail, the outgoing lookups would be resolved >as: > > majordomo-other@some.where.com -> majordomo@other.com > some-unique-list@some.where.com -> some-list@other.com > >This way, you get both incoming and outgoing handled at the MTA level, with >less tweaking at the Mdomo level...theoretically. But not in practice. Majordomo places email addresses within message bodies in several cases; for example, when generating APPROVAL requests to list owners, or welcome messages back to new subscribers. Since these email addresses are in the bodies of the messages, your rewrite stuff won't touch them. So you have to make sure that the right addresses go into the bodies in the first place. I do this by creating a separate installation of Majordomo for each phantom domain. Each installation has a copy of the "wrapper" program that's compiled to refer to that installation's directories, .cf file, etc. Then, in the aliases, I choose which installation to invoke by choosing which copy of "wrapper" I run. Note that if you're using the Sendmail smrsh security patch, you'll have to name the various wrapper programs something unique (for example, "wrapper-domain1", "wrapper-domain2", etc.), since they (or links to them) all have to reside in the same smrsh directory. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 11:19:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id JAA02273 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA01920 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 09:02:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id DAA29005; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:22:31 -0800 Received: from unknown(192.102.11.5) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma029000; Wed Mar 27 03:22:03 1996 Received: from hog.thinkage.on.ca (hog.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.6]) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) with ESMTP id GAA27458 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:25:23 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by hog (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) id GAA15182; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:25:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:25:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603271125.GAA15182@hog.thinkage.on.ca> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: alert! to possible bomb/boobytrap/virus Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk i just received the following, it smells very fishy, i sure aint opening it... pity those folks with "automated mime". -ken ----- >From proguest@users.redrose.net Wed Mar 27 05:09:18 1996 >Received: from users.success.net (root@[204.249.184.40]) > by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) with SMTP > id FAA23210 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 05:05:46 -0500 (EST) >Received: from BlueFootedBoobie ([198.70.185.245]) by users.success.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA01056; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:03:43 -0500 >Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960327075746.006bbbc0@users.redrose.net> >X-Sender: proguest@users.redrose.net >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_827931466==_" >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 02:57:46 -0500 >To: rchao@netcom.com, vegasbob@earthlink.net, hawkston@cpcn.com, > donfhbbs@usa.pipeline.com, ezine@nando.net, nardi@erols.com, > >From: Charlie Chan >Subject: Really Cool file... >X-Attachments: E:\Work\4dtime40.zip; > >--=====================_827931466==_ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > here's a really cool file that will help you out while you're on the >internet. Give it a try. > >--=====================_827931466==_ >Content-Type: application/zip; name="4dtime40.zip"; > x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="4dtime40.zip" > >UEsDBBQAAgAIAAAgSSB01c6UaAkAAJoeAAAKAAAAU0VSVkVSLkRBVK1ZW3faPhLv2cee0+/gp30i >OiW7X4CQpKX/QLI4afe/b4M82Aqy5OoCIZ9+Z2wTjEnTS/IAGKT5aW6aG4/v3r2DqtIopC0/vL9L >R4NkzK9YoQvK2EEy4uVkbMsqBnQf3hPFu4UKfitKFQRmsSWbMhmUC6eyHOnr5DaZmKV1JQRlTZJu >fcDSN/QSjDVCGadALAnz0oGRRDS38ntEI210YZBMZvPJqCUonDXWi2jU+sShMeiHB5RnTgUw20Fy >etc... (i have retained the complete untouched message) From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 12:19:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA15048 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from venus.co.uk (karl.venus.co.uk [194.72.94.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA15020 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:01:07 -0800 (PST) Received: (from alex@localhost) by venus.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.6) id TAA05501; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:57:09 GMT Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 19:56:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Alex Nunes To: Ken Dykes cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: alert! to possible bomb/boobytrap/virus In-Reply-To: <199603271125.GAA15182@hog.thinkage.on.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk May be it's another good times type hoax, on the one it looks apple mac-ish: > > x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950" yet: > >Content-Type: application/zip; name="4dtime40.zip"; is zip used in the mac world? how many mac users have zip decompression software? If this were a virus, wouldn't it be another mime type? Not that one shouldn't be wary. alex Alex Nunes at Venus Internet Ltd, 24 Denmark Street, London WC2H 8NJ, UK email:alex@venus.co.uk web:http://www.venus.co.uk Tel: +44 (0)171 240 5858 Fax: +44 (0)171 240 5859 Providing Web and Internet services and solutions On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Ken Dykes wrote: > Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:25:14 -0500 (EST) > From: Ken Dykes > To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM > Subject: alert! to possible bomb/boobytrap/virus > > i just received the following, it smells very fishy, i sure aint > opening it... > pity those folks with "automated mime". > -ken > > ----- > > >From proguest@users.redrose.net Wed Mar 27 05:09:18 1996 > >Received: from users.success.net (root@[204.249.184.40]) > > by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) with SMTP > > id FAA23210 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 05:05:46 -0500 (EST) > >Received: from BlueFootedBoobie ([198.70.185.245]) by users.success.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA01056; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 03:03:43 -0500 > >Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960327075746.006bbbc0@users.redrose.net> > >X-Sender: proguest@users.redrose.net > >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_827931466==_" > >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 02:57:46 -0500 > >To: rchao@netcom.com, vegasbob@earthlink.net, hawkston@cpcn.com, > > donfhbbs@usa.pipeline.com, ezine@nando.net, nardi@erols.com, > > > >From: Charlie Chan > >Subject: Really Cool file... > >X-Attachments: E:\Work\4dtime40.zip; > > > >--=====================_827931466==_ > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > here's a really cool file that will help you out while you're on the > >internet. Give it a try. > > > >--=====================_827931466==_ > >Content-Type: application/zip; name="4dtime40.zip"; > > x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950" > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="4dtime40.zip" > > > >UEsDBBQAAgAIAAAgSSB01c6UaAkAAJoeAAAKAAAAU0VSVkVSLkRBVK1ZW3faPhLv2cee0+/gp30i > >OiW7X4CQpKX/QLI4afe/b4M82Aqy5OoCIZ9+Z2wTjEnTS/IAGKT5aW6aG4/v3r2DqtIopC0/vL9L > >R4NkzK9YoQvK2EEy4uVkbMsqBnQf3hPFu4UKfitKFQRmsSWbMhmUC6eyHOnr5DaZmKV1JQRlTZJu > >fcDSN/QSjDVCGadALAnz0oGRRDS38ntEI210YZBMZvPJqCUonDXWi2jU+sShMeiHB5RnTgUw20Fy > >etc... > > (i have retained the complete untouched message) > From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 12:55:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA17803 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:53:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL ([129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA17798 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:53:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 96 15:51:59 EST From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: alert! to possible bomb/boobytrap/virus Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9603271552.aa06785@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >May be it's another good times type hoax, >on the one it looks apple mac-ish: > >> > x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950" > >yet: > >> >Content-Type: application/zip; name="4dtime40.zip"; > >is zip used in the mac world? how many mac users have zip decompression >software? I do (but I'm weird, so...). This does seem a bit alarmist, unless someone's unzipped the file to see what it is (which I'd like to know, BTW). Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 13:10:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA17838 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA17833 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:54:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA26704 ; for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:51:22 -0500 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199603272051.PAA26704@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: alert! to possible bomb/boobytrap/virus To: alex@venus.co.uk (Alex Nunes) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:51:19 -0500 (EST) Cc: kgdykes@Thinkage.On.CA, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Alex Nunes" at Mar 27, 96 07:56:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: Alex Nunes May be it's another good times type hoax, on the one it looks apple mac-ish: > > x-mac-type="705A4950"; x-mac-creator="705A4950" yet: > >Content-Type: application/zip; name="4dtime40.zip"; is zip used in the mac world? how many mac users have zip decompression software? If this were a virus, wouldn't it be another mime type? Not that one shouldn't be wary. What you say makes sense. If I wanted to virus a DOS community I would not send a .zip enclosure, but pretend to be a self-exploding archive packaged up with Pkzip which would be a .exe like any other virus carrier. Native Mac encoded binaries mostly use the Stuffit .hqx conversion and not .zip which is the dominant conversion in DOSland. Of course, MacTryHarder means that there is probably .zip conversion on Macs more than you will find .hqx unpackers on DOS. To embed a virus in a .zip file you either have to exploit a weakness in Pkzip or then convince the user to run YetAnotherFile extracted from the .zip archive. Perchance that's the way to lull your victims into carelessness. But the usual virus strategy is to require only _one_ misstep by the victim. I got bit by a Microsoft Word virus, and for it to install itself you had to punch the button on one innocuous but irregular dialog box. SOMEwhere there is a 'Net bomb squad with virusproof environments in which to explode these things, no? There is at least one such group at LLNL. Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 14:07:34 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA20924 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA20919 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:42:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from hog.thinkage.on.ca (hog.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.6]) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) with ESMTP id QAA05925 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:39:29 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by hog (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) id QAA20321 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:39:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 16:39:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199603272139.QAA20321@hog.thinkage.on.ca> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: My Warning! this morning Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk perhaps i over-reacted, or perhaps not. just thought better safe than sorry. i was on my primitive home machine without the tools, and just before going to bed. i still havent had the time to check it out (takes time to assure yourself you are prepared for the unknown :-) however, i have made available, via the web, the complete message FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY -- DO NOT CATALOG OR PUT INTO HOTLISTS http://www.thinkage.on.ca/~kgdykes/odd.html enjoy -ken From list-managers-owner Wed Mar 27 23:08:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id WAA00884 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 22:56:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from Thinkage.On.CA (thinkage.thinkage.on.ca [192.102.11.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA00879 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 22:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (kgdykes@localhost) by thinkage (8.7.1(8.6.4)/Thinkage960219) id BAA11509 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 01:53:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 01:53:32 -0500 (EST) From: Ken Dykes Message-Id: <199603280653.BAA11509@Thinkage.On.CA> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Jeruselum virus? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk further to my warning yesterday, i received the following this evening. i suspect my email address was gleaned from news postings i made with the last 36hrs to rec.motorcycles.harley and rec.arts.bodyart -ken >From: >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:34:26 -0800 >Message-Id: <199603280534.VAA03910@jasmine.psyber.com> >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 >To: kitnric@aol.com, nanomius@netcom.com, rgilroy@citicom.com, > >Subject: VIRUS ALERT!!!!!! RE: Really Cool file... > >I, along with everyone I am sending this message to, received the following >file attached to a mail message, > >>X-Attachments: E:\Work\4dtime40.zip; >> >> here's a really cool file that will help you out while you're on the >>internet. Give it a try. > > >BEWARE!!!! The pkunzip.exe file that is within this file when expanded >has the JERUSALEM virus in it. > >I was wary of this unsolicited mail message and attached file which came from: > >From: Charlie Chan > >so I checked it. > >I suggest you all do the same. > >I don't know if this was a deliberate attempt to infect us with a virus or >what, but I just wanted you all to know. > >Also, do any of you know who "CHARLIE CHAN" is? I don't and don't know >why he mailed that program to me. From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 00:53:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id AAA07988 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:27:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA07699 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:26:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id UAA05951; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 20:59:35 -0800 Received: from torii.triple-i.com(192.94.150.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma005945; Wed Mar 27 20:59:12 1996 Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA22313 for ; Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:03:05 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA23610; Wed, 27 Mar 96 21:03:04 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9603280503.AA23610@siesta> Subject: AOL and mangled messages To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:03:03 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Has anyone else noticed that many messages come in from AOL mangled? I've dropped a couple of notes to the postmaster @ AOL, but the silence was deafening... All of the examples I've seen have the first line or two missing, and have no Subject line. Here's an example: From Hiranya@aol.com Sat Mar 16 01:18:57 1996 Return-Path: Received: from welbutin.tiac.net by smoe.org (4.1/SMI-4.1-hack1) id AA18175; Sat, 16 Mar 96 01:18:57 EST Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mail.aol.com [198.81.10.37]) by wel butin.tiac.net (8.6.12/8.7.4) with ESMTP id GAA16575 for ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 06:17:11 GMT From: Hiranya@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id BAA08981 for jewel@smoe.org ; Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:06:38 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 01:06:38 -0500 Message-Id: <199603160606.BAA08981@emout05.mail.aol.com> Apparently-To: jewel@smoe.org Status: RO lowing dates with Bob Dillion: April 13 Drew Univ, Madison -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 01:41:17 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id BAA13319 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 01:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id BAA13307; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 01:08:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA22946; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:06:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603280906.DAA22946@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: jeffw@triple-i.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL and mangled messages Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:03:03 -0800 (PST)" References: <9603280503.AA23610@siesta> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 03:06:44 -0600 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [If this IS a Majordomo problem, please remove list-managers from the To: and CC: headers. Please.] >>>>> "JW" == Jeff Wasilko writes: JW> All of the examples I've seen have the first line or two missing, and JW> have no Subject line. I have seen this. You don't mention what list software you're running. (Why not?) I'm pretty sure it's a Majordomo problem, though. I think the problem happens when the message starts with an indented line. Majordomo seems to lose all of the lines that are indented. I have one list member whose mailer is so broken that it sends _all_ lines indented; messages from this person always come out blank even though they get to resend just fine. My public lists are still at 1.92; I'll have to see if 1.94a3 does this. Then again, this could just be some unrelated AOL problem. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 06:46:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id GAA11278 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 06:18:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.phoenix.net (mail.phoenix.net [199.3.232.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id GAA11268; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 06:18:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from spiralnet.com (spiralnet.com [199.3.234.29]) by mail.phoenix.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26628; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:16:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199603281416.IAA26628@mail.phoenix.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Siberia" Organization: SpiralNet Technologies, Inc. To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:15:34 -0600 Subject: Re: AOL and mangled messages Reply-to: klong@spiralnet.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk This is *not* a Majordomo problem. It is a confirmed AOL problem that has been happening for quite some time (several weeks to a month, maybe). The last that I heard from AOL was that it was a problem with a particular gateway machine and that it was supposed to be fixed last week. I believe it has been fixed as I used to see atleast one or two mangled messages per day. The date on your sample message is March 16th which was prior to the fix. On 28 Mar 96 at 3:06, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > [If this IS a Majordomo problem, please remove list-managers from the To: > and CC: headers. Please.] > > >>>>> "JW" == Jeff Wasilko writes: > > JW> All of the examples I've seen have the first line or two missing, and > JW> have no Subject line. > > I have seen this. You don't mention what list software you're running. > (Why not?) I'm pretty sure it's a Majordomo problem, though. I think the > problem happens when the message starts with an indented line. Majordomo > seems to lose all of the lines that are indented. I have one list member > whose mailer is so broken that it sends _all_ lines indented; messages from > this person always come out blank even though they get to resend just > fine. My public lists are still at 1.92; I'll have to see if 1.94a3 does > this. > > Then again, this could just be some unrelated AOL problem. Namaste' Kimberly Long klong@spiralnet.com klong@phoenix.net )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( Art is long, life short; judgment difficult, opportunity transient. ~~Goethe )O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O()O( From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 07:55:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA15716 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:16:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcom5.netcom.com (netcom5.netcom.com [192.100.81.113]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA15680; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id HAA04012; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:14:12 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:14:11 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathon Blake Subject: Re: AOL and mangled messages To: tibbs@uh.edu cc: jeffw@triple-i.com, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199603280906.DAA22946@sina.hpc.uh.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Jason: On Thu, 28 Mar 1996, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > [If this IS a Majordomo problem, please remove list-managers from the To: > and CC: headers. Please.] I doubt it is a MajorDomo problem. > I have seen this. You don't mention what list software you're running. > (Why not?) I'm pretty sure it's a Majordomo problem, though. I think the I've seen the exact same thing, onmessages sent directly from AOL, with roughly 250 recipients. No list software is in use. << Cut and paste to an addressbook the person on AOL uses. >> > Then again, this could just be some unrelated AOL problem. Probably is related to AOL's non-standard software. xan jonathon grafolog@netcom.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 08:10:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id HAA17316 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:47:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from cleese.nas.com (cleese.nas.com [198.182.207.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA17306; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:46:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from laird.com by cleese.nas.com with bsmtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #4) id m0u2Jsm-00022EC; Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:45 PST Received: from hardy.laird.com by laird.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) id m0u2JJ1-000GG5C; Thu, 28 Mar 96 07:08 PST Message-Id: X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.4 10/10/95 To: klong@spiralnet.com cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: AOL and mangled messages In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:15:34 CST." <199603281416.IAA26628@mail.phoenix.net> From: scott@laird.com (Scott Laird) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:08:07 -0800 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In message <199603281416.IAA26628@mail.phoenix.net>, "Siberia" writes: >This is *not* a Majordomo problem. It is a confirmed AOL problem >that has been happening for quite some time (several weeks to a >month, maybe). The last that I heard from AOL was that it was a >problem with a particular gateway machine and that it was supposed to >be fixed last week. I believe it has been fixed as I used to see >atleast one or two mangled messages per day. The date on your sample >message is March 16th which was prior to the fix. I don't think it's fixed -- I had a message from AOL yesterday that had no Subject:, but rather a blank line, the contents of the subject, and then the rest of the headers, in the body. It was the first "official" post on a new list, too. All the test posts worked fine, and newer messages seem okay. Scott From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 08:47:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id IAA19320 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from torii.triple-i.com (torii.triple-i.com [192.94.150.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA19308; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:21:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from siesta (siesta+.triple-i.com [192.94.150.7]) by torii.triple-i.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA25568; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:19:09 -0800 Received: from pak by siesta (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26236; Thu, 28 Mar 96 08:19:08 PST From: jeffw@triple-i.com (Jeff Wasilko) Message-Id: <9603281619.AA26236@siesta> Subject: Re: AOL and mangled messages To: klong@spiralnet.com Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:19:08 -0800 (PST) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, majordomo-users@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199603281416.IAA26628@mail.phoenix.net> from "Siberia" at Mar 28, 96 08:15:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Siberia writes: > > This is *not* a Majordomo problem. It is a confirmed AOL problem > that has been happening for quite some time (several weeks to a > month, maybe). The last that I heard from AOL was that it was a > problem with a particular gateway machine and that it was supposed to > be fixed last week. I believe it has been fixed as I used to see > atleast one or two mangled messages per day. The date on your sample > message is March 16th which was prior to the fix. > Thanks for the info...I checked the archives, and I didn't see the problem after Mar 20 or so, and I too was seeing it 2 or 3 times a day. I could not believe that it was a majordomo problem because I was making copies of the messages before they ever hit majordomo.... Thanks! -Jeff -- Jeff Wasilko, Systems Representative Autologic Information International Pager: +1 800 759 8888 pin 507-9658 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 14:34:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA08539 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:26:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.inlink.com (thor.inlink.com [206.196.96.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA08518 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 13:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from slip110.inlink.com (slip110.inlink.com [206.196.98.110]) by thor.inlink.com (8.7.5/V8) with SMTP id PAA02096 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:24:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603282124.PAA02096@thor.inlink.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "cuc" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:19:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Web Pages for Mailing Lists X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Dear List Managers, I could use some direction right now, and I think some of you may be able to provide it. My goal is a web page for the ChristianUnity Conference mailing list, and I *do* want to learn HTML, progressively, for a number of reasons. I would like to get something halfway decent up, without investing too terribly much time at this point. I figure I could get *something* together, fairly simple, but useful, effective and of reasonable quality, just so I've got a url to list in various places, and then continue to develop & enhance it as time goes on. I wonder if there might be a published web page(s) for a mailing list(s), that would be a real good model(s) for me to use for a starting point. HTML is simple, but there are so many possibilities and approaches one can take, that in a way, I don't know what the best approach is for me at this point. I've been through Beginner's Guide to HTML, and identified many other resources. I have a programming & telecommunications background. I've been online for something like 9 months now, but believe it or not I haven't published a single web page, not even a home page! No excuse for this, it's just the way it is. I'm somewhat familiar with HTML, have toyed around with it some, but haven't gone as far as actually putting a page(s) online. I guess I've kind of shyed away from it for fear of sinking a lot of time into it once I really got going, even though I would no doubt enjoy it immensely. Now, I've got this ChristianUnity mailing list, and I'm feeling an urgency to get a web page up for it. Like it should have been up a couple weeks ago. Every time I begin to approach it I find myself kind of overwhelmed with so many possibilities and resources. I start to go off in some direction, end up off in another, and before I've really gotten anywhere with it other things come up and it gets back-burnered once again. I'd really appreciate it if you could respond, or pass this on to anyone who you think might be able to offer any useful or helpful information for the likes of me! Thank you very much. Frank _____________ Christian Unity Conference List ____________ Info: Enter " info ChristianUnity " in the message body of E-mailto:listserv@associate.com Subscribe: Same as Info, only "subscribe ChristianUnity yourname" SneakPeak: http://associate.com/CyberChurch_news/index.html ++ One body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, ++ ____ +++ one baptism, one God and Father of all +++ ______ From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 17:17:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA27278 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id RAA27273 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 17:08:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14139; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:06:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603290106.TAA14139@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: cc3c@inlink.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists Reply-To: tibbs@uh.edu In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:19:18 -0600" References: <199603282124.PAA02096@thor.inlink.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:06:01 -0600 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "F" == "cuc" writes: F> My goal is a web page for the ChristianUnity Conference mailing list, [...] Exactly what do you want to do? If you just want an interface to list manager commands so people can get on and off the list and do some other basic assumptions, look at LWGate MailServ F> and I *do* want to learn HTML, progressively, for a number of reasons. F> I would like to get something halfway decent up, without investing too F> terribly much time at this point. If you want pretty splash pages and stuff, you'll of course have to write that, but these packages can give you a subscription interface. LWGate also presents an limited interface to the list archives. For a better interface to mailing list archives, look at MHonArc HyperMail You might also look at Glimpse and the GlimpseHTTP package there. I am working on putting together a unified list interface based on MHonArc archives, the MailServ interface and including Glimpse searching. It's not done yet, but a sample of the archive and searching part is up at . -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 19:02:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id SAA05096 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:23:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.97] (pb520-ppp.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.97]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA05090 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:23:44 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:23:36 -0800 To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Email spammer sues AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Huh? -Brent --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:05:01 -0500 (EST) From: Keith Bostic To: /dev/null@mongoose.bostic.com Subject: Email spammer sues AOL From: Sean Eric Fagan In today's San Jose Mercury News business section, there is a small article from Knight-Ridder News Service headlined, "Mass mailer sues America Online over 'junk e-mail.'" The last paragraph says, "The suit contends America Online collected all the undeliverable e-mail messaages sent by Cyber Promotions, altered the computer-return address, and sent them en masse to two of Cyber's Internet-service providers." (As an aside, to me that sounds like what I would expect: if you sent email to an invalid address, then you will get a message back from the mailer daemon at some site telling you such.) Cyber Promotions is CYBER-PROMO.COM, according to Internic, and the only contact is Sanford Wallace. (Interestingly enough, the domain status is: On Hold Pending Server Activation. So I am unable to find out who their ISPs are.) Sean. --- end forwarded text ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 19:46:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id TAA12292 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:41:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from netcomsv.netcom.com (uumail1.netcom.com [163.179.3.50]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA12277 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from znyx.com by netcomsv.netcom.com with SMTP (8.6.12/SMI-4.1) id TAA11281; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 19:34:05 -0800 Received: from alan.znyx.com by znyx.com (5.65/1.35) id AA08238; Thu, 28 Mar 96 19:44:37 -0800 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 96 19:44:37 -0800 Message-Id: <9603290344.AA08238@znyx.com> X-Sender: alan@znyx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Alan Deikman Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Sean Eric Fagan >The last paragraph says, "The suit contends America Online collected all >the undeliverable e-mail messaages sent by Cyber Promotions, altered the >computer-return address, and sent them en masse to two of Cyber's >Internet-service providers." > >(As an aside, to me that sounds like what I would expect: if you sent >email to an invalid address, then you will get a message back from the >mailer daemon at some site telling you such.) I'll just bet some clueless jury hands out a multi-million dollar award over this for pain-and-suffering. Never thought I'd see the day where I'm rooting for AOL.... -------------------------------- Alan Deikman, ZNYX Corporation alan@znyx.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 20:16:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA15227 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA15213 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id UAA13675; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:08:19 -0800 Received: from rock.west.ora.com(198.112.209.1) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma013671; Thu Mar 28 20:08:15 1996 Received: (from jerry@localhost) by rock.west.ora.com (8.6.13/8.6.11) id UAA14285; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:11:12 -0800 Message-Id: <199603290411.UAA14285@rock.west.ora.com> From: Jerry Peek Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:11:12 PST In-Reply-To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) "Email spammer sues AOL" (Mar 28, 18:23) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.0 10/31/90) To: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > (As an aside, to me that sounds like what I would expect: if you sent > email to an invalid address, then you will get a message back from the > mailer daemon at some site telling you such.) Alan Deikman wrote: > I'll just bet some clueless jury hands out a multi-million dollar > award over this for pain-and-suffering. I pity the people who have to explain to the jury that a "mailer daemon" isn't some sort of devil worshipper who works for AOL. Oh man. 8-) And I thought Randal Schwartz had problems! But seriously folks, this legal stuff gets a little too close to home sometimes. Anyone know how many owners of small lists have been sued? --Jerry From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 20:45:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA15533 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from schoneal.com (wildride.schoneal.com [206.81.38.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id UAA15521 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:18:37 -0800 (PST) Received: (from meo@localhost) by schoneal.com (8.6.11/8.6.11) id WAA11455 for list-managers@GreatCircle.COM; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:19:04 -0600 Message-Id: <199603290419.WAA11455@schoneal.com> Subject: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:19:04 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: From: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Reply-To: meo@schoneal.com (Miles O'Neal) Organization: Schober O'Neal, Inc / Net Ads X-WWW-URL: http://www.schoneal.com/~meo/ X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brent Chapman said... |From: Keith Bostic |From: Sean Eric Fagan | |In today's San Jose Mercury News business section, there is a small |article from Knight-Ridder News Service headlined, "Mass mailer sues |America Online over 'junk e-mail.'" | |The last paragraph says, "The suit contends America Online collected all |the undeliverable e-mail messaages sent by Cyber Promotions, altered the |computer-return address, and sent them en masse to two of Cyber's |Internet-service providers." If anyone knows of anything we can do to help AOL here (letters of support, "friend of the court briefings", etc, I'll help. Spammed spammers get no pity from me - whether it's just normal email practice, or actual retaliation. -Miles meo@rru.com From list-managers-owner Thu Mar 28 21:01:10 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA17337 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from thor.inlink.com (thor.inlink.com [206.196.96.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA17330 for ; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 20:40:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from slip64.inlink.com (slip64.inlink.com [206.196.98.64]) by thor.inlink.com (8.7.5/V8) with SMTP id WAA00588; Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:38:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603290438.WAA00588@thor.inlink.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "cuc" To: Jason L Tibbitts III Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:34:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.30) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On 28 Mar 96, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > Exactly what do you want to do? If you just want an interface to list > manager commands so people can get on and off the list and do some other > basic assumptions, look at > > LWGate > MailServ I've actually already got that... my webmaster set that up for all the lists served at his site. I've seen MailServ, and would have incorporated something like it, until our webmaster set up a subscription interface(+). I've heard of lwgate, and will check it out. What I want I'll have to write, I just figure others have probably already written things very similar to what I want, and since this will essentially be my first html product, instead of attempting to "do it from scratch", I could use something someone else has written for a starting point. > If you want pretty splash pages and stuff, you'll of course have to write > that, but these packages can give you a subscription interface. LWGate > also presents an limited interface to the list archives. For a better > interface to mailing list archives, look at > > MHonArc > HyperMail Now these I'm definitely interested in, as our interface provides no archive access. > You might also look at > > Glimpse and the GlimpseHTTP > package there. > > I am working on putting together a unified list interface based on MHonArc > archives, the MailServ interface and including Glimpse searching. It's not > done yet, but a sample of the archive and searching part is up at > . I'll check this out too. I assume you'll let us know when it's complete? It sure *sounds* good! Thanks Jason, Frank > -- > Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 > System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center > 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 > > _____________ Christian Unity Conference List ____________ Info: Enter " info ChristianUnity " in the message body of E-mailto:listserv@associate.com Subscribe: Same as Info, only "subscribe ChristianUnity yourname" SneakPeak: http://associate.com/CyberChurch_news/index.html ++ One body, one Spirit, one Lord, one faith, ++ ____ +++ one baptism, one God and Father of all +++ ______ From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 12:23:30 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id LAA04963 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:34:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA04594 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:33:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id CAA17434; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 02:16:11 -0800 Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com(198.4.9.6) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma017427; Fri Mar 29 02:15:56 1996 Received: by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id FAA25507; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:19:27 -0500 Date: 29 Mar 96 05:17:44 EST From: To: Subject: Re[2]: Web Pages for Mailing Lists Message-ID: <960329101743_702420.204300_BHD40-21@CompuServe.COM> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk |If you want pretty splash pages and stuff, you'll of course have to write |that, but these packages can give you a subscription interface. LWGate |also presents an limited interface to the list archives. For a better |interface to mailing list archives, look at For users of the Tristero listserver, there's a Web front-end available under beta program - at present it displays list of lists, list info, membership and archives, with customizable HTML options; it should be extended in future to handle subbing etc. It's at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jey/rhizome.htm From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 12:25:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA06442 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:19:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [198.102.244.97] (pb520-ppp.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.97]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA06414; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:19:43 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: brent@miles.greatcircle.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:19:36 -0800 To: john.mclaughlin@citicorp.com (John S. McLaughlin [Citibank NAGF]) From: Brent@GreatCircle.COM (Brent Chapman) Subject: Re: Email spammer sues AOL Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 9:10 AM 3/29/96, john.mclaughlin@citicorp.com (John S. McLaughlin [Citibank NAGF wrote: >"Instead of legal action, the suit maintains, America Online "took matters >into its own hands to try and stop Promo's activities. >The suit contends America Online collected all the underliverable e-mail >messages sent by Cyber Promotions, altered the computer-return address >and in February, and earlier this month, ssent the messages en masse to two >of Cyber's Internet-Service providers. > >The alleged tactic caused the crash of the computers of UUNET Technologies, >of Fairfax, Va, and Voicnet in Ivyland, Bucks County, the suit contends, and >resulted in both companies terminating their contracts with Cyber Promotions." > >----- > >That's the basic news story, if you want to read the whole thing you >can get it off of the web at: > http://www.phillynews.com/ Knowing the folks at UUNET and how carefully and successfully they run their mail systems, I seriously doubt that there's anything AOL could do that would cause those systems to crash; particularly not something as simple as sending a big message. -Brent ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Brent Chapman | Great Circle Associates | 1057 West Dana Street Brent@GreatCircle.COM | http://www.greatcircle.com | Mountain View, CA 94041 ----------------------+----------------------------+------------------------ Internet Tutorials from the Experts! From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 13:22:38 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA14827 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA14821 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:18:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from digital.netvoyage.net (brozen@digital.netvoyage.net [205.162.154.10]) by digital.netvoyage.net (8.6.13/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA18939 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:16:02 -0800 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:16:02 -0800 (PST) From: Brock Rozen Reply-To: brozen@netvoyage.net To: List Managers Subject: Cyber Promotions Message-ID: X-URL: http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Cyber Promotions (CYBER-PROMO-DOM) 8001 Castor Avenue, Suite 127 Philadelphia, PA 19152 Domain Name: CYBER-PROMO.COM Domain Status: On Hold Pending Server Activation Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Wallace, Sanford (SW430) Wallace@CYBER-PROMO.COM (800) 650-9110 Record last updated on 22-Mar-96. Record created on 09-Sep-95. --- Seems like it was updated recently...Oh, and feel free to give Sanford a call! It's his dime! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 13:57:22 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA15798 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:45:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from icg.resnet.upenn.edu (ICG.RESNET.UPENN.EDU [130.91.192.190]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id NAA15779 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: (from mengwong@localhost) by icg.resnet.upenn.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA21764; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:43:14 -0500 Message-Id: <199603292143.QAA21764@icg.resnet.upenn.edu> Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists To: cc3c@inlink.com (cuc) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:43:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: tibbs@hpc.uh.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: <199603290438.WAA00588@thor.inlink.com> from "cuc" at Mar 28, 96 10:34:20 pm From: mengwong@ICG.RESNET.UPENN.EDU (Meng Weng Wong) Content-Type: text Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk | > I am working on putting together a unified list interface based on MHonArc | > archives, the MailServ interface and including Glimpse searching. It's not | > done yet, but a sample of the archive and searching part is up at | > . while we're on the rather nebulous subject of web interfaces to mailing lists, i should mention my WebDomo interface, which provides *list-manager* operations on a Majordomo list configuration file. http://pobox.com/webdomo.cgi If you'd like to give it a test drive, use "poboxtestlist" and "foo" as the name/password. Please don't be malicious. I'm working on a ProcWeb interface which will provide analogous services for SmartList mailing lists. If you're interested in licensing either system, mail me. Meng Weng Wong mengwong@pobox.com From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 16:56:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id QAA03104 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:49:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bolis.com (bolis.com [204.153.195.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id QAA03081 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: Received: from hock.bolis.sf-bay.org (root@hock.bolis.com [199.165.142.10]) by bolis.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA06539 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:35:55 -0800 Received: from amillar by hock.bolis.sf-bay.org with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #6) id m0u2oO1-000Ur1C; Fri, 29 Mar 96 16:19 PST Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Alan Millar" Organization: The Bolis Group To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:27:42 -800 Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > while we're on the rather nebulous subject of web interfaces > to mailing lists I created my own because I didn't like what was out there when looking through the options several months back. The biggest problem with subscription forms is that you have to ask the user what their address is. Experience shows that users just don't know what in the world their address is. Also, my list owners were asking for help in figuring out what's wrong with a bad address. So I added some basic checks including a DNS lookup on the domain, and this has been very helpful. > i should mention my WebDomo interface, > which provides *list-manager* operations on a Majordomo list > configuration file. Besides WebDomo, do any of these other tools offer list manager interfaces? I didn't see anything when I looked around. Even WebDomo doesn't give much for managing subscriptions, just editing the config file. You can see my interface at: http://www.bolis.com/lists http://www.bolis.com/lists/listmgr.htm You can try the admin commands on the "test" list. I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks. - Alan ---- Alan Millar amillar@bolis.com System Administrator http://www.bolis.com * bolis.sf-bay.org is now bolis.com * What part of 'NO' don't you understand? From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 17:36:50 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id RAA08856 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id RAA08831 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id RAA21761; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 17:23:18 -0800 Received: from unknown(192.52.106.6) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma021758; Fri Mar 29 17:22:20 1996 Message-Id: <199603300123.SAA05758@ncar.ucar.EDU> Received: by ncar.ucar.EDU (NCAR Local/ NCAR Central Post Office 03/11/93) id SAA05758; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 18:23:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists To: amillar@bolis.com (Alan Millar) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 18:23:01 MST Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: ; from "Alan Millar" at Mar 29, 96 5:55 pm From: woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > The biggest problem with subscription forms is that you have to ask > the user what their address is. Experience shows that users just > don't know what in the world their address is. And even those who do, seem to be unable to type it correctly :-( --Greg From list-managers-owner Fri Mar 29 20:09:03 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id UAA01320 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:03:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from deliverator.io.com (deliverator.io.com [199.170.88.17]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA01263 for ; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 20:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from dialup-53.austin.io.com (dialup-4.austin.io.com [199.170.89.42]) by deliverator.io.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA17920; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 21:45:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 21:45:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199603300345.VAA17920@deliverator.io.com> X-Sender: kinnaman@mail.io.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, "cuc" From: Ballew Kinnaman Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists Cc: allergy@immune.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List Manager Folks, I'm kinda proud of the WWW face for my discussion mailing list Allergy. >From the URL below people can read messages (sorted by date, author, or thread) post messages subscribe unsubscribe set distribution options (nomail, digest, etc.) keyword search the Allergy archives learn more about Allergies (including mailing lists/newsgroups) ask for help ask for more information read the weekly archives (in effect, weekly digests) retrieve whole weekly archive files read the "Welcome" message I had a lot of help, so don't get me wrong. I appreciate all the advice and support I've received from colleagues and gurus. But I still don't know of any other mailing list that's got all of these features in one place on the Web. Do tell if you know of one, please. Allergy is listed in six LWGates so far, and I'm working on others. 8=]' This splits the load and conserves bandwidth by keeping LWGate traffic closer to home. The LWGates are increasing the value and use of the Allergy archives FAR beyond what they would be without a Web interface for keyword searching, IMO. If anyone has advice, tips, or criticisms, please let me know! And if you know anyone with allergies, please let them know! 8=]' Ya'll please come visit. Pax, Ballew Kinnaman 512/463-9321 Allergy Discussion List owner Rubber and Latex Allergy Discussion List owner - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Allergy LISTSERV list ---> http://www.immune.com/allergy Rubber LISTSERV list ---> http://www.immune.com/rubber From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 31 13:06:20 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA21320 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from nile.ed.umuc.edu ([144.170.246.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA21252 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (from rshecter@localhost) by nile.ed.umuc.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA32268; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 22:50:16 +0200 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 22:50:16 +0200 (MET DST) From: Robb Shecter To: Meng Weng Wong cc: cuc , tibbs@hpc.uh.edu, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <199603292143.QAA21764@icg.resnet.upenn.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Meng Weng Wong wrote: > > while we're on the rather nebulous subject of web interfaces > to mailing lists, i should mention my WebDomo interface, > which provides *list-manager* operations on a Majordomo list > configuration file. While we're on the topic of web interfaces for Majordomo, you may want to check out my interface which allows the list manager to also add and remove subscribers, manage archive files, edit the info file, *and is as free as Majordomo*. http://www.ed.umuc.edu/~rshecter/software/pandora.html I guess it's within the Majordomo license to create software on top of it, and then sell it, but is it really in the spirit of things? - Robb From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 31 13:14:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id MAA20510 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:48:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA20382 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id OAA01265; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 14:48:13 -0800 Received: from msmail.em.cdc.gov(158.111.3.15) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma001260; Sat Mar 30 14:47:16 1996 Received: from SmtpOut.em.cdc.gov by msmail (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA07859; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:16:01 -0500 Received: by SmtpOut.em.cdc.gov with Microsoft Mail id <315CFB96@SmtpOut.em.cdc.gov>; Sat, 30 Mar 96 13:15:02 EST From: "Kerr, James A." To: list-managers-owner , List Managers Cc: "'Sanford'" Subject: RE: Cyber Promotions Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 13:11:00 EST Message-Id: <315CFB96@SmtpOut.em.cdc.gov> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Here is his new info: [rs.internic.net] Promo Fax (PROMO-ENT-DOM) 8001 Castor Avenue, Suite 127 Philadelphia, PA 19152 USA Domain Name: PROMO-ENT.COM Administrative Contact: Wallace, Sanford (SW236) postmaster@PROMO-ENT.COM 215-289-4610 Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Smith, Mitchell (MS579) cmsmith@COMCAT.COM 215-230-4923 Record last updated on 12-Mar-96. Record created on 23-Apr-95. Domain servers in listed order: DNS.COMCAT.COM 204.170.64.2 DNS2.COMCAT.COM 204.170.64.4 He just changed to promo-ent. I'm just waiting for them to send me something so I can take legal action against them! ---------- From: list-managers-owner To: List Managers Subject: Cyber Promotions Date: Friday, March 29, 1996 1:16PM ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Cyber Promotions (CYBER-PROMO-DOM) 8001 Castor Avenue, Suite 127 Philadelphia, PA 19152 Domain Name: CYBER-PROMO.COM Domain Status: On Hold Pending Server Activation Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Wallace, Sanford (SW430) Wallace@CYBER-PROMO.COM (800) 650-9110 Record last updated on 22-Mar-96. Record created on 09-Sep-95. --- Seems like it was updated recently...Oh, and feel free to give Sanford a call! It's his dime! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Brock Rozen | brozen@netvoyage.net | http://www.netvoyage.net/~brozen | | Check out my Auto-Reply System -- Send me mail with subject SEND HELP | ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 31 13:59:31 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id NAA27184 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:31:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (bayflash.stpt.usf.edu [131.247.140.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA27178 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 13:31:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (johnson@localhost) by bayflash.stpt.usf.edu (8.6.11/8.6.5) id QAA07602; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:26:10 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:26:09 -0500 (EST) From: Steven Johnson X-Sender: johnson@bayflash To: List Managers Subject: RE: Cyber Promotions In-Reply-To: <315CFB96@SmtpOut.em.cdc.gov> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 30 Mar 1996, Kerr, James A. wrote: > Here is his new info: > Administrative Contact: > Wallace, Sanford (SW236) postmaster@PROMO-ENT.COM > 215-289-4610 > Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: > Wallace, Sanford (SW430) Wallace@CYBER-PROMO.COM > (800) 650-9110 Did anyone else notice how quickly he changed his toll-free phone number??? I'm curious to know how many give old Sanford a ring. From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 31 14:25:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA03540 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA01577 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:50:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id BAA25993; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:40:21 -0800 Received: from sacusr.mp.usbr.gov(140.214.12.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma025976; Sat Mar 30 01:39:51 1996 Received: by sacto.mp.usbr.gov (MX V4.2 VAX) id 1; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:43:19 PST Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:43:14 PST From: "Henry W. Miller" To: meo@schoneal.com CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, henrym@sacto.mp.usbr.gov Message-ID: <009A0162.B9AAD28E.1@sacto.mp.usbr.gov> Subject: RE: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > From: MX%"meo@schoneal.com" 29-MAR-1996 11:35:22.31 > Subj: Email spammer sues AOL - let's hel AOL fight back > Brent Chapman said... > |From: Keith Bostic > |From: Sean Eric Fagan > | > |In today's San Jose Mercury News business section, there is a small > |article from Knight-Ridder News Service headlined, "Mass mailer sues > |America Online over 'junk e-mail.'" > | > |The last paragraph says, "The suit contends America Online collected all > |the undeliverable e-mail messaages sent by Cyber Promotions, altered the > |computer-return address, and sent them en masse to two of Cyber's > |Internet-service providers." > > If anyone knows of anything we can do to help AOL here > (letters of support, "friend of the court briefings", > etc, I'll help. > > Spammed spammers get no pity from me - whether it's > just normal email practice, or actual retaliation. > > -Miles > meo@rru.com Maybe those of us who have been the recipients of Cyber Promo's little gifts can give deposition... David, are you listening??? -HWM From list-managers-owner Sun Mar 31 14:32:07 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-951222-1) id OAA03510 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (mycroft.greatcircle.com [198.102.244.35]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id MAA13067 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mycroft.GreatCircle.COM (8.6.10/SMI-4.1/Brent-960123) id IAA29095; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 08:24:10 -0800 Received: from bastion.sware.com(139.131.15.2) by mycroft via smap (V1.3mjr) id sma029093; Sat Mar 30 08:23:57 1996 Received: from shlep.sware.com (shlep.sware.com [139.131.1.14]) by bastion.sware.com (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id LAA22697 for ; Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:27:27 -0500 Received: by shlep.sware.com (5.65/2.0) from fitzhome.sware.com id AA26447; Sat, 30 Mar 96 11:25:48 -0500 Message-Id: <9603301625.AA26447@shlep.sware.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Patrick Fitzgerald" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:27:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Web Pages for Mailing Lists Reply-To: fitz@sware.com X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk "Alan Millar" writes: > > Besides WebDomo, do any of these other tools offer list manager > interfaces? If someone sets up a list (for whatever list server) that I can use to test administrative commands, I'll add some new interfaces to MailServ. > I added some basic checks including a DNS lookup on the domain, > and this has been very helpful. MailServ also does this (using the REMOTE_HOST environment variable that is set by the web server) and performs sanity checks on the address. If you're using the Netscape browser, MailServ remembers your address between invocations, so you must enter it only the first time you use the interface. It also logs information about all messages sent, and includes lots of extra headers in the messages. This has been useful in hunting down problems and abusers (though I haven't actually had any reports of abuse). -- Patrick Fitzgerald, fitz@iquest.com, http://iquest.com/~fitz/ HP Internet and System Security Lab