From list-managers-owner Sun Jun 2 08:33:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA13821 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA13814 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20852 ; for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:29:06 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606021529.LAA20852@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? To: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, listelves@sig.net In-Reply-To: <199605292057.OAA05936@kitsune.swcp.com> from "Lazlo Nibble" at May 29, 96 02:57:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk From: "Lazlo Nibble" I'm looking for software that handles all of the following: * Maintains web-based archives of Internet-style mailing lists; * Allows users of the web pages to post to the lists; * Ideally allows people to "sign in" to the web pages and only be presented with messages that have been added since they last logged on. Does anything like this exist? I'm trying to coordinate a move away from CIS to the Internet, but simply cutting CIS forums over to Internet mailing lists makes things a little too complicated. On lynx-dev we are currently running with Hypermail 1.02 and we like it enought so that we are contemplating hacking it until we get a mode * Maintains web-based archives of Internet-style mailing lists; This much works good. * Allows users of the web pages to post to the lists; Presently, we allow open posting, so that a random visitor can reply. As list-managers well know this is spam-vulnerable but we are risking it for now. Better later. The key missing link is the threading of replies so originated. I have demonstrated that it can be done, but the necessary steps are highly tedious. We have hopes of modifying the archiver to autogenerate a "reply" mailto: url that gets the job done. Some of this is keyed to using the X-URL: header generated which is a functional synonym of a Referrer: header as used in HTTP. the archiver doesn't presently understand and reply to that header, but Lynx and Netscape generate usable headers for threading purposes and it's a SMOP to get Hypermail to do the right thing. * Ideally allows people to "sign in" to the web pages and only be presented with messages that have been added since they last logged on. Lynx does not maintain history, and we are oriented to lynx users. But I would still argue that this information should be saved at the client side of the dialog and not at the server. A simple operational procedure that gets you 85% of this functionality as is with little more user burden than a sign-on transaction is that the user bookmarks the most recent message in the archive when he/she visits, and then uses that bookmark as the entry point for re-visiting the site. On return the user navigates from this old post to the by-date index. The Hypermail links include the intelligence to take you to the citation of this post in the by-date listing, which clearly isolates more recent messages from those in the archive when you last visited. Very interested in anything you learn/do, Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Sun Jun 2 14:18:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA25080 for list-managers-outgoing; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FSM-1.PICA.ARMY.MIL (fsm-1.pica.army.mil [129.139.164.101]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA25072 for ; Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 17:01:46 EDT From: Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: MILNET Organization: Electronics Br, PMMDD, US Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ Message-ID: <9606021701.aa03579@fsm-1.pica.army.mil> Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Brock Rozen: >On Fri, 31 May 1996, Chris Farris wrote: >> > Feedback from PSI Network Support indicates that MILNET no longer exists, >> > and that individual sites and units are supposedly now responsible for >> > their own connectivity... what you see below could be a manifestation >> > of problems during the transition. >> >> Well looking at my queue only a few .mil addresses were delived at all >> this week. Is anyone else having this problem? It my probelm my ISP >> (PSINet) routing? Any ideas? > >Well, I had a discussion with the administrator of a .mil site about two >months ago. It does seem that each site is responsible for it's own >support, as he was asking *me* questions and for help. I was wondering why >he hadn't asked other sites. > >I just checked out the mil nic's site. They do seem to provide support and >other services to keep milnet going. I would suggest going to >http://nic.ddn.mil and asking them for help if you're experiencing >problems. Don't bother. All that nic.ddn.mil does is provide registry services (in the same fashion that the InterNIC does for .gov, .com, .org and .edu). THIS "milnet" site is still up 'n running! Tom Coradeschi, Info-LabVIEW List Maintainer http://k-whiner.pica.army.mil/info-labview/info-labview.html From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 3 07:18:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA19820 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from grover.inherent.com ([207.49.1.200]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA19806 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sparky.inherent.com (sparky.abanet.org [207.49.1.3]) by grover.inherent.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA00926; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:08:23 -0700 Received: from sparky (localhost) by sparky.inherent.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) Message-Id: <9606031407.AA05411@sparky.inherent.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.6 3/24/96 To: Al Gilman Cc: lazlo@swcp.com (Lazlo Nibble), list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 02 Jun 1996 11:29:04 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 07:07:58 -0700 From: Jeff Heinen Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Altho HyperMail seems to be working for you, ( I never could make it work well for me.. Hmm ). I would go take a look at HyperNews, its the same basic idea, but starting from the web based direction and is recently started accepting email replies ( were as before it just sent out notification messages when a new message arrived ). I am hoping it will becomming very stable in the next few weeks so I can start showing it off to some clients. To see how they like it. -Jeff -- ___________________________________ Jeff Heinen jeffh@inherent.com Systems Administration Network Operations Center | Tel.: 503-224-6751 Inherent Technologies, Inc. | Fax: 503-224-9273 2110 SW Jefferson St. 3rd Floor | sysadmin@inherent.com Portland, Oregon USA 97201 | http://www.inherent.com From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 3 08:19:24 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23752 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from night.primate.wisc.edu (night.primate.wisc.edu [144.92.43.19]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA23732 for ; Mon, 3 Jun 1996 08:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by night.primate.wisc.edu; From: Software Development Message-Id: <199606031513.KAA11156@night.primate.wisc.edu> Subject: Re: List/Web Interfacing? To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:13:54 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9606031407.AA05411@sparky.inherent.com> from "Jeff Heinen" at Jun 3, 96 07:07:58 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > Altho HyperMail seems to be working for you, ( I never could make it work > well for me.. Hmm ). I would go take a look at HyperNews, its the > same basic idea, but starting from the web based direction and is > recently started accepting email replies ( were as before it just sent > out notification messages when a new message arrived ). I am > hoping it will becomming very stable in the next few weeks so I can > start showing it off to some clients. To see how they like it. I recently made some hypermail 1.02 patches available at http://www.primate.wisc.edu/software/web-tools. They fixed the problems I had with hypermail. If anyone has other patches that they've made, I'd be interested in seeing them, and incorporating them. I like the package after it's fixed, but unfortunately its author doesn't seem to reply to mail sent about it. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 11:36:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA27744 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vger.Tripcom.COM (vger.Tripcom.COM [207.70.68.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id LAA27734 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Users replying to owner-listname To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 13:07:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". 1. I think my headers are correct. Are they? 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the problem... what have other listmanagers done? Should I change the "From" address to apease the MS Mail users? Can't this cause a potential mail bouncing problem? 4. Should I dump my very stable and solid Majordomo in favor of a different program? Many thanks in advance! From Owner-TestList Tue Jun 4 12:30:20 1996 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM id MAA27719; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM id MAA27709 for testlist@Tripcom.COM; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:13 -0500 (CD T) From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606041730.MAA27709@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Test Message To: testlist@Tripcom.COM Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: Owner-TestList@Tripcom.COM Precedence: bulk Reply-To: TestList@Tripcom.COM This is a test. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 11:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA03120 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA03095 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Message-Id: <199606041841.LAA22676@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:41:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Horwitz wrote: > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". > Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". You should insist that they "fix" their mail programs to use the correct address. Your Reply-To is correctly set, and it's not your fault that their mail program is broken. If you get more nonsense like this, start quoting appropriate RFCs to 'em, or whatever. -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 269,881st person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 12:20:40 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA05384 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA05357 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:59:03 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IJV0JBHQ001IBT@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk List-Managers: I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be configured to do this? Please reply direct... and thanks in advance. Paul S. Bentivegna Technology Coordinator Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer or its representatives. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 12:51:16 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA09486 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA09456 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1391"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 16:30:26 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-reply-to: <199606041841.LAA22676@idyllmtn.com> from "Kynn Bartlett" at Jun To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9606041930.AA14302@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Kynn Bartlett writes: >> I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of >> "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". > >You should insist that they "fix" their mail programs to use the >correct address. Your Reply-To is correctly set, and it's not your >fault that their mail program is broken. > >If you get more nonsense like this, start quoting appropriate RFCs to >'em, or whatever. This really doesn't sound like a reasonable solution. Unless you are running a list for mail administrators, they are at the mercy of whoever set up their system, and the negligent incompetents who write these mail programs. Leaning on the victims doesn't help if they are not in a position to do anything about it. I generally try to educate subscribers about how the problems arise, but not punish them for someone else's mistakes. Sometimes a compromise is called for. I don't blame people for using Banyan Vines, but if their mail bounces they get deleted the first time with no grace period, because of the dangerous nature of Vines bounces. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 13:30:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA12645 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (arl-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com [149.174.211.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA12611 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (gatekeeper_1.latrade.com [199.120.237.18]) by Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29679.; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) Received: from localhost by turtle; (5.65/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1034AM) Message-Id: <9606041955.AA06315@turtle> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 96 14:59:03 EDT." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 15:55:09 -0400 From: Lew Gramer X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I'd also be interested in the answer to this - please post responses to the list! Also, having the ability to make the subscribe_policy 'auto', but with this feature in place for non-matching (munged) addresses would be ideal! Lew From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 13:35:43 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA12239 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (arl-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com [149.174.211.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA12228 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (gatekeeper_1.latrade.com [199.120.237.18]) by Arl-Mail-Svc-1.compuserve.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA29554 Received: by gatekeeper_1.latrade.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) Received: from localhost by turtle; (5.65/1.1.8.2/20Oct95-1034AM) Message-Id: <9606041952.AA06317@turtle> To: Adam Horwitz Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 96 13:07:02 CDT." Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 15:52:06 -0400 From: Lew Gramer X-Mts: smtp Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk You're right (IMHO) about who's at fault. You might consider contacting MS and asking if this is fixed in a new or upcoming release: This should appease your MS-enslaved subscribers... Alternatively, you could suggest they get the (free) Eudora Light for Windows and replace that Gates-generated stuff altogether. :) Looks like MS Mail doesn't like the Sender field, rather than From: Sender: Owner-TestList@Tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 14:37:44 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22589 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA22582 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:21:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: RE: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IOVCVWUI001E8V@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID Wsk+h/PveEuu2b0PUnY1RQ)" Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --Boundary (ID Wsk+h/PveEuu2b0PUnY1RQ)-- From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 14:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23083 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from laca0.laca.ohio.gov (laca0.laca.ohio.gov [156.63.145.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA23060 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LACA.OHIO.GOV by LACA.OHIO.GOV (PMDF V5.0-6 #6770) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:30:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Bentivegna -- Technology Coodinator" Subject: RE: Confirmation Code To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Cc: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Message-id: <01I5IP4B51NS001E8V@LACA.OHIO.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk One person wanted me to post this to the list: Thanks to those who responded to my question. :-) >> I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to >> the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This >> seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be >> configured to do this? > >The current development version of Majordomo (1.94alpha7) does this. Answer -----------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Subscribe to majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com to find out about it. > >And, why send this to list-managers instead of majordomo-(users|workers)? >list-managers is not for Majordomo questions. Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just LISTSERV list managers. Paul S. Bentivegna Technology Coordinator Licking County JVS -- Newark, Ohio -- USA Primary E-Mail: bentivegna@laca.ohio.gov Secondary E-Mail: paul@jvs.laca.ohio.gov Web: http://www.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ FTP: ftp://ftp.jvs.laca.ohio.gov/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The thought and opinions above are my own. They do not necessarily reflect those views of my employer or its representatives. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 15:06:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA26255 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [199.171.26.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA26243 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606042204.PAA26243@miles.greatcircle.com> Received: from us.ibm.com by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 7432; Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:01:37 EDT From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: note of 06/04/96 17:54 X-Sender-Info: Jerry L. Canterbury t/l 372-3302 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: RE: Confirmation Code Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV wrote: >Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just >LISTSERV list managers. Ummm, so did I. Did it change? Or was I misinformed? Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** This message has been Xenu-ized for your protection. **** From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 15:35:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA29535 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA29522 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15164; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:28:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606042228.RAA15164@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: RE: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:01:37 EDT" References: <199606042204.PAA26243@miles.greatcircle.com> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 17:28:29 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "j" == jcanterbury writes: j> BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV wrote: >> Sorry, I thought this was a generic list for list managers no just >> LISTSERV list managers. j> Ummm, so did I. Did it change? Or was I misinformed? This is a list for the discussion of list management issues. If you want to talk about whether or not subscribe confirmation is a good idea, discuss it here. If you want to know how to make whatever software you run do subscribe confirmation, ask on the list that relates to whatever software you run. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 19:35:33 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA10864 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.111]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA10857 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606050221.TAA10857@miles.greatcircle.com> To: adam@Tripcom.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 22:18:47 EDT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". > > 1. I think my headers are correct. Are they? > 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" > is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? > 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the > problem... what have other listmanagers done? Should I change the > "From" address to apease the MS Mail users? Can't this cause a > potential mail bouncing problem? > 4. Should I dump my very stable and solid Majordomo in favor of > a different program? The problem is indeed in Microsoft Mail, but don't hold your breath waiting for a fix. Microsoft Exchange is supposed to be a lot more Internet-friendly, but it has some rough edges in that respect too. We have the same problem here as we have a lot of users on Microsoft Mail. The tack we took with LISTSERV is to use the Safe=No option, whuch causes the SMTP MAIL FROM (which is what MS Mail is using) to be set to the listname instead of owner-listname. This means that replys from MS Mail users go to the list by default. That's still not a complete solution, as MS Mail does not pay attention to Reply-to. It also means that bounce messages get sent to the list address. LISTSERV's filters do an excellent job of catching bounce messages, so it works quite well. But occasionally one slips through and starts a mail loop. That's why the option is called Safe=No. Speaking of rocks and hard places, there is an option in the MS Mail SMTP gateway to use the RFC 822 From address instead of the SMTP Mail From. Then replies go by default to the sender of the message. Unfortunately, bounce messages go there too, instead of to the list owner. Another thing to look at besides replacing the MS Mail SMTP gateway with the Exchange Internet Mail Connector is the various third party MS Mail gateways on the market. Some of them claim to be more Internet-friendly. There's only so much they can do though, as the fundamental problem is in MS Mail itself. Roger Fajman Telephone: +1 301 402 4265 National Institutes of Health BITNET: RAF@NIHCU Bethesda, Maryland, USA Internet: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV CU.NIH.GOV/NIHCU, LIST.NIH.GOV/NIHLIST, ULIST.NIH.GOV, WEB.NIH.GOV Postmaster From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 4 21:50:36 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA14801 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au ([203.111.3.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id VAA14605 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 21:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au; id OAA16198; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:20:44 +1000 (EST) Received: from dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au(172.16.30.207) by nova.fisheries.nsw.gov.au via smap (V3.1) Received: from pc100393.fisheries.nsw.gov.au (pc100393.fisheries.nsw.gov.au [172.16.30.74]) by dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA27907 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:27:49 +0800 Message-Id: <199606050627.OAA27907@dwarf.fisheries.nsw.gov.au> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Andrew Sedger" Organization: NSW Fisheries To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 14:20:43 +10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Introduction Reply-to: sedgera@fisheries.nsw.gov.au X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.10) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings list-managers, I have recently established a mailing list in Australia called fishnet-au. The list has been established to provide a forum of discussion about fisheries-related issues within Australia. The list is running on Majordomo software. Before I advertise the list widely throughout the country I want to be sure about any legal liabilities I may incur as the list-owner, or my employer may incur by supporting the list. If anybody knows anything about this issue, I would be very grateful to hear from you. Thanks in advance, Andrew -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Andrew Sedger Fisheries Management Officer NSW Fisheries, Australia List-Owner of Fishnet-au Ph - (02) 566 7873 Fax- (02) 552 6627 e-mail - sedgera@fisheries.nsw.gov.au =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 01:20:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id BAA23344 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id BAA23302 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 01:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from shoreside.com (shoreside.com [206.40.34.81]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id DAA28104 for ; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from jlick@localhost) by shoreside.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id DAA03938; Fri, 31 May 1996 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 03:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: James Lick To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: mailers appending complete replied text In-Reply-To: <199605310800.BAA18289@miles.greatcircle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk My lists have implemented a filter for quite a while that for the most part enforces the list policy of not including more than relevant portions of a prior post. Every message on the list has a helpful trailer tacked on about what list it is from, how to unsubscribe, etc. If a post to the list is recieved with this trailer anywhere in it, the post is bounced back to the sender. This mechanism also functions to prevent many of the mail looping problems that have occurred. Thus, for the common case of a user not editing out anything, messages are rejected. If they make any effort at all to edit the message, they usually have the sense to cut it down to the relevant parts. The only noted side effect is that when people ask about how to unsubscribe, the replies that say "hey you #%^(ing blind bat, didn't you see this tag at the end of every #%*@ing message?" get rejected as well. So if you can put in a piece of known text into the body of all messages (in the headers doesn't help for includes), you can have your list filter (you DO have a list filter, right??) reject messages with this text in it. This alone will do wonders for cutting down on included text AND protect you from most mail loops. -- James Lick -- jlick@tcp.com -- http://drivel.com/jlick/ -- From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 04:50:39 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA09169 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunams.usma.army.mil (sunams.usma.army.mil [129.29.199.3]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA09162 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1e6244.usma.edu ([129.29.133.54]) by sunams.usma.army.mil (4.1/25-eef) Message-Id: <9606051147.AB28244@sunams.usma.army.mil> Comments: Authenticated sender is <1e6244@sunams> From: "Mr. Erich L. Markert" <1e6244@sunams.usma.edu> Organization: USMA, DOIM-? To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:48:47 +0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname Reply-To: 1e6244@sunams.usma.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.32a) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Point is, we shouldn't have to. Why is it that FREE mail clients like Pegasus can properly adhere to RFCs while the behemoth Microsoft can't? You'd think that with all their fantastic programmers that they would be able to get a simple mail client like MS Mail to function according to established standards. Who's kidding who... We shouldn't expect great things from a company that can't even create a calculator program that can handle floating point arithematic properly. > > You're right (IMHO) about who's at fault. You might consider contacting MS and > asking if this is fixed in a new or upcoming release: This should appease your -- __________________________________________________________ Mr. Erich L. Markert markert@www.usma.edu Webmaster TEL (914)938-6463 Directorate of Information Management FAX (914)938-7308 United States Military Academy West Point, NY 10996 Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. -- Henry Spencer From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 07:35:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA19589 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www6.clever.net ([208.5.12.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA19582 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 07:33:16 -0700 (PDT) From: CEO@Citadel.Net Received: from llion (llion-cs1-07.llion.org [198.209.45.107]) by www6.clever.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA16014 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960605093221.3c0f77dc@citadel.net> X-Sender: citadel@citadel.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: MS Annoying Confirmation Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Greetings! I'm new to this list, so apologize in advance if this has been discussed. But how are list owners dealing with those subscribers who ask for a confirmation of their message using their software. I believe it is the MS email program that is causing the problem. The subscriber requests a confirmation on their postings. The confirmation is then sent to everyone on the list or I receive the confirmation on everyone on the list. I'm using Mreply which doesn't seem to have much in filtering. Hope someone can give me a general idea of how to stop this. Thanks! Leonard From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 08:20:55 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA23288 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA23257 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:06:51 -0700 (PDT) From: CDrury8303@aol.com Received: by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04627 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:04:26 -0400 Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:04:26 -0400 Message-ID: <960605110423_128345987@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: Fwd: Confirmation Code Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sorry, Original meant for list discussion. Catherine --------------------- Forwarded message: From: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com To: CDrury8303@aol.com Date: 96-06-05 08:24:49 EDT Your message came to just me, not to the entire list. Jerry Canterbury, Buckeye Consulting Internet: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com or jcanterb@worldweb.net **** This message has been Xenu-ized for your protection. **** *** Forwarding note from I1925413--IBMMAIL 06/05/96 08:21 *** Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:21:57 -0400 From: CDrury8303@aol.com To: jcanterbury@us.ibm.com Subject: Re: Confirmation Code Does anyone know the address of a group that discusses policies for any mail system, not just listserv or majordomo? Any help would be appreciated. >From a newcommer to e-mail management. Catherine Drury Computer Security Coordinator St. Joseph's Hospital & Medical Center Paterson, NJ ---- End of mail text Additional SMTP headers from original mail item follow: Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 05 Jun 96 08:21:46 EDT Received: by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA20349 for jcanterbury@u s.ibm.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 08:21:57 -0400 Message-ID: <960605082156_319079162@emout16.mail.aol.com> From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 11:22:05 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA14274 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from halcyon.com (chinook.halcyon.com [198.137.231.20]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA14241 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by halcyon.com id AA21607 From: Peter Marks Message-Id: <199606051815.AA21607@halcyon.com> Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199606050800.BAA22907@miles.greatcircle.com> from "List-Managers-Digest" at Jun 5, 96 01:00:46 am Reply-To: marks@halcyon.com (Peter Marks) Phone: (206)489-0501 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Adam Horwitz writes: > 2. I think MS Mail (or any other mail client that ignores "reply-to" > is the problem) and should to be fixed. Am I right? > 3. So, if I'm right and they're wrong, I still need to deal with the > problem... You are right that older versions of MS Mail ignored the RFC822 headers, but at that time telling such users to get their mailers fixed was futile (to whom could they go?) Happily the latest version does (or at least can be configured to) understand the headers, so it would now certainly be appropriate to ask the offenders to get their mailsystems upgraded. I've been running SMTP mailing lists in a mostly-MS mail environment for a good while now (using procmail rather than majordomo), and all I've been able to come up with for the old situation was this: 1. Insert a preamble into all list-distributed messages highlighting the author and list addresses, and PLEADING with people to check the outgoing address of their responses, and change them as necessary. 2. Bouncing individual messages sent to the owner-list addess back to their originators via a script that tacks on a (slightly personalized) form letter explaining the error of their ways (i.e., essentially repeating 1) With #2 in place I still have to go thru the mis-sent mail, but it takes only a few seconds each to dispatch the message. The messages do get reposted correctly, about half the time I even get an apology, and the repetition rate for that error from those people is fairly low. P-) ___o - o Peter Marks _-\_<, - _\ /\_ 15307 NE 202nd Street (206)489-0501 (*)/ (*) - (*)^(*) Woodinville, WA 98072 ------------------------------ More comfortable AND faster ... that's REAL technology! From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 17:05:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id QAA25208 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id QAA25200 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (Sina.HPC.UH.EDU [129.7.3.5]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA08410 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sina.hpc.uh.edu (tibbs@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sina.hpc.uh.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04512; Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:27:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199606041927.OAA04512@sina.hpc.uh.edu> To: BENTIVEGNA@LACA.OHIO.GOV Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Confirmation Code In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:59:03 -0400 (EDT)" References: <01I5IJV0JBHQ001IBT@LACA.OHIO.GOV> X-Mailer: Mew beta version 0.98 on Emacs 19.30.1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 14:27:25 -0500 From: Jason L Tibbitts III Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >>>>> "PB" == "Paul S Bentivegna <-- Technology Coodinator" > writes: PB> I subscribed to a list the other day and instead of just adding me to PB> the list it wanted me to reply and give it a confirmation code. This PB> seems to me like it would be a nice feature to have. Can majordomo be PB> configured to do this? The current development version of Majordomo (1.94alpha7) does this. Subscribe to majordomo-workers@greatcircle.com to find out about it. And, why send this to list-managers instead of majordomo-(users|workers)? list-managers is not for Majordomo questions. -- Jason L. Tibbitts III - tibbs@uh.edu - 713/743-8684 - 221SR1 System Manager: University of Houston High Performance Computing Center 1994 PC800 "Kuroneko" DoD# 1723 From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 5 19:20:37 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA10225 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:18:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vger.Tripcom.COM (vger.Tripcom.COM [207.70.68.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id TAA10208 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from adam@localhost) by vger.Tripcom.COM From: Adam Horwitz Message-Id: <199606060216.VAA06445@vger.Tripcom.COM> Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:16:05 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199606050219.VAA15556@vger.Tripcom.COM> from "Roger Fajman" at Jun 4, 96 10:18:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". Thank You to each of you who replied. Everyone confirmed that Microsoft Mail is broken. (Whew; and I thought I made a mistake. Looks like my record is safe.) It is interesting to note that a search of Microsoft Technet did not turn up any reference to this problem. Maybe Microsoft doesn't like it to be known that they don't comform to others' standards... Several suggested that through various methods, I make the users switch to another mail system. I hope those of you who suggested this are not in the business of supporting people. Someone said that a recent update addresses this problem. I am going to look into this as Microsoft may have slipped one by me. Thanks again to each individual who replied. -- Adam Horwitz (708) 778-9531 Tripcom Systems Inc. adam@tripcom.COM From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 00:35:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA17509 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:21:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.his.com (mail.his.com [205.177.25.9]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id AAA17481 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from brad.his.com (brad.his.com [205.177.25.174]) by mail.his.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id DAA16865; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 03:18:36 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19960605093221.3c0f77dc@citadel.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 02:55:06 -0400 To: CEO@Citadel.Net, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Brad Knowles Subject: Re: MS Annoying Confirmation Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:15 AM -0400 6/5/96, CEO@Citadel.Net wrote: > The subscriber requests a confirmation on > their postings. The confirmation is then sent > to everyone on the list or I receive the confirmation > on everyone on the list. I'm using Mreply which > doesn't seem to have much in filtering. Hope > someone can give me a general idea of how to > stop this. Thanks! The easiest way I know of is to use an SMTP MTA that ignores (and strips) that header. Recent versions of sendmail (8.7 and later) will do this, although you should be able to do something similar with any mailing list management package that lets you remove certain types of information/headers on messages before they get sent back out to the subscribers of the list. -- Brad Knowles, MIME/PGP: brad@his.com comp.mail.sendmail FAQ Maintainer finger brad@his.com for my PGP Public Keys and Geek Code The comp.mail.sendmail FAQ is at From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 01:08:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id AAA18130 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (mcb@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) id AAA18122 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 00:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hamp.hampshire.edu (hamp.hampshire.edu [192.33.12.137]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id PAA13084 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 15:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [198.114.177.183] (pc177-183.hampshire.edu [198.114.177.183]) by hamp.hampshire.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18284 for ; Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:21:39 -0500 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Subject: list takeover? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk A touchy question: I have owned/managed several lists over the past few years, and have gotten good feedback about how I manage lists. I am now a subscriber of a list that seems to be going down a slow spiral. It used to be a very useful resource, but is mainly "unsubscribe" messages, because something may be misconfigured in the list software, and/or the listowner seems absolutely nowhere. He doesn't reply to repeated requests for members to be removed, he doesn't seem to reply to any queries or requests about the list. I've once recieved mail from him quite some time ago in response to a question, but in the last 2 months or so, I've sent a couple of polite "what's up?" and "do you need help?" kinds of messages to no reply. I'm frustrated because I really think that this list provides some important and needed resources, but at this time is simply useless. So, my question: what can be done in this sort of instance that's not mean and nasty? I guess I could start a competing list, but that seems kindof underhanded. However, the listowner seems pretty uncommunicative, at least recently. Michelle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michelle Murrain, Ph.D. mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu Home page URL -> http://persephone.hampshire.edu/~mpm Minority Health listowner (minhlth-request@family.hampshire.edu) sci.med.aids FAQ maintainer/co-moderator (http://family.hampshire.edu/aidsfaq/aidsfaq.html) From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 04:50:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id EAA03466 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id EAA03459 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 04:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id HAA27235; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:40:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:40:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: list takeover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Wed, 5 Jun 1996, Michelle Murrain wrote: > A touchy question: > > may be misconfigured in the list software, and/or the listowner seems > absolutely nowhere. He doesn't reply to repeated requests for members to be > removed, he doesn't seem to reply to any queries or requests about the > list. Perhaps he died. > So, my question: what can be done in this sort of instance that's > not mean and nasty? I guess I could start a competing list, but that seems > kindof underhanded. However, the listowner seems pretty uncommunicative, at > least recently. > You may first want to contact the administrators of the listserver rather than the list owner. If it is an important resource and online contact isn't working, then try to phone the listowner or the system administrators where the list is located. Finally, post a question to the list participants stating your concerns and let them help you decide what to do. ---rob--- ( Teaching Online courses ... start again June 14 ) Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D.| The Virtual Gymnasium | aka: Doc Higgins ;-) CyberCorp Inc. |Online Education (courses)|writer of The Condom Song rhiggins@cybercorp.net | gymv@cybercorp.net | doc@cybercorp.net http://www.cybercorp.net | www.cybercorp.net/gymv | www.cybercorp.net/condom From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 05:36:18 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA07335 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA07279 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 05:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id IAA17338 ; for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:30:32 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606061230.IAA17338@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: list takeover? To: mpmNS@hamp.hampshire.edu (Michelle Murrain) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Cc: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM In-Reply-To: from "Michelle Murrain" at Jun 5, 96 06:21:39 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk The lynx-dev list has recently muddled its way through the process of changing MLM-services provider. We did this with lots of jaw-jaw and a minimum of war-war, as Winston Churchill would say. The keys are the basic assertiveness or negotiation rules. Talk up the mission that the list accomplishes. Help the group verbalize standards for service. If you want to know more, write to me individually. Al Gilman P.S: The result, but intentionally not the process, is visible via http://www.access.digex.net/~asgilman/lynx/FAQ. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 09:21:04 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA27549 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from merak.idola.net.id (merak.IdOLA.net.id [202.152.0.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA27530 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT) From: firebird@elang.idola.net.id Received: from ppp2.IdOLA.net.id by merak.idola.net.id; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Mar96-0518PM) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:10:46 +0700 Message-Id: <9606061610.AA25930@merak.idola.net.id> X-Sender: firebird@elang.idola.net.id X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk list From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 09:50:47 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA00384 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id JAA00319 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 09:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts25-13.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.139.113]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id MAA27731; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606061635.MAA27731@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: firebird@elang.idola.net.id From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 11:10 PM 06/06/96 +0700, you wrote: >list > Dear firebird, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM is a list of managers who are list-managers. I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. Of course I could be wrong, in which case you would be looking for the manager of list-managers-owner -- but I don't know what its address is. Good luck. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 10:35:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id KAA07468 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id KAA07444 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:32:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In-reply-to: <199606061635.MAA27731@mail.inforamp.net> To: David Lloyd-Jones Cc: firebird@elang.idola.net.id, list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists grouped by list kind? Sandra in Maconga On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might > guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 12:05:52 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id LAA18146 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access2.digex.net (access2.digex.net [205.197.245.193]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id LAA18076 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asgilman@localhost) by access2.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA23137 ; for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:39 -0400 From: Al Gilman Message-Id: <199606061845.OAA23137@access2.digex.net> Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? To: flowers_s@Mercer.EDU (Sandra Hollin Flowers) Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Sandra Hollin Flowers" at Jun 6, 96 01:32:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: > I think you want list-managers-owner@greatcircle.com, which, as you might > guess, is the owner of the list of list-manager managers. Which elicited the response: From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? To: David Lloyd-Jones OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists grouped by list kind? No sooner said than done: As elegantly explained in Norm Aleks's MLM FAQ, there are three classes of list managers: little-endians, middle-endians, and big-endians. little-endian list managers are card carrying libertarians and just do it via "exploder lists" in straight Unix. they are served by the discussion on /list/null, since they wouldn't deign to ask for help, anyway. Big-endian list managers are usually escapees from the world of big computers and little network bandwidth. they are served by the discussion on LSTOWN-L at a LISTSERV near you. Middle-endian list managers are escapees from the above two groups, and they muddle through hacking PERL rather than AWK. Some of them have gone totally mad and thing they _understand_ those ProcMail command files they use. You can find many of them here on list-managers [hosted by greatcircle.com -- admin requests to majordomo@...] So we have covered the class space of list-managers: two lists covering three classes. Super-linear performance! Al Gilman From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 12:20:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id MAA20860 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SYSWRK.UCIS.Dal.Ca (syswrk.UCIS.Dal.Ca [129.173.1.68]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id MAA20849 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from AC.Dal.Ca by SYSWRK.UCIS.DAL.CA (PMDF V4.3-13 #6307) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca ("port 1887"@biome.BIO.dfo.ca) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 16:12:14 -0300 (ADT) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Subject: Humorous postings To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM (List Managers) Message-id: <9606061912.AA23820@biome.bio.dfo.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I don't want to discourage flippancy, but since I suspect that many other list managers share my problem of getting lots of mail as we monitor lists, do our jobs, and write our sweethearts, perhaps any postings that do not actually relate to list management, such as the current spate of postings about newbies who send this list an inappropriate (but only one word) posting, could have a tag line in the subject such as: Subject: JOKE -- I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In this case the subject is clearly facetious, but in general it might save a lot of us some time. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 18:35:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA29957 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon3.Mercer.PeachNet.Edu (Macon3.Mercer.EDU [131.144.194.26]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id SAA29950 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:33:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Macon2.Mercer.EDU (Macon2.Mercer.EDU) Received: from MACON2.MERCER.EDU by MACON2.MERCER.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #13284) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:30:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Sandra Hollin Flowers Subject: Re: I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in? In-reply-to: <199606061845.OAA23137@access2.digex.net> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I have gotten three responses to the following query: > OK, David--I'll bite. Is there such a list as the one below, or is > it an urban hoax designed to lure new list managers such as I? And if by > chance there is such a list, might one expect to find list-manager lists > grouped by list kind? All three responders understood me differently, so let me rephrase the query: Is there a list of list managers grouped by the interests they cater to? For example, those who run astology lists? dog-lovers' lists? religious lists? Boy and Girl Scout leaders lists? UFO spotters' lists? organ donor lists? THAT kind of "kind." What I am looking for is a group of people who run lists covering subject matter similar to what my lists cover. I know about the lists of lists, and I suppose the kinds of lists I'm looking for are probably buried somewhere in its 400+ pp, which I have not been able to plow through. David's note seemed to suggest a better way of finding the folks I want to be in contact with. Not that **you all** aren't good company, but well....you talk over my head most of the time. Once again, Sandra in Maconga From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 19:07:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id SAA00939 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id SAA00926 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valor.idyllmtn.com by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Message-Id: <199606070155.SAA21500@idyllmtn.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kynn Bartlett" Organization: Idyll Mountain Internet To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:54:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Mailing List Meta-Lists Reply-to: kynn@idyllmtn.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Sandra Hollin Flowers wrote: > All three responders understood me differently, so let me rephrase > the query: Is there a list of list managers grouped by the interests they > cater to? For example, those who run astology lists? dog-lovers' lists? > religious lists? Boy and Girl Scout leaders lists? UFO spotters' lists? > organ donor lists? THAT kind of "kind." There is apparently a list for people who manage dog-related mailing lists; my wife (khyri@idyllmtn.com) is on that, so I guess if that's your cup of tea, check with her. I'm not aware of a list of meta-lists anywhere, but you might want to check around at some of the web sites that list as many mailing lists as they can get their hands on. An example: http://www.liszt.com/ -- /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 269,881st person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Thu Jun 6 19:22:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA01692 for list-managers-outgoing; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA01683 for ; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA28980; Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:11:43 -0400 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:11:43 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Sandra Hollin Flowers wrote: > through. David's note seemed to suggest a better way of finding the folks > I want to be in contact with. Not that **you all** aren't good company, > but well....you talk over my head most of the time. > I don't think there are many of the sort of "meta" lists you are asking about, but if I wanted to find any Internet resources related to a particular area of interest, I would go to a WWW search engine such as Yahoo or Alta Vista. They often itemize lists and newsgroups for the subject area you choose. ---rob--- Teaching Online courses (start again June 14) Dr.Robert N. Higgins Ph.D.| The Virtual Gymnasium | aka: Doc Higgins ;-) CyberCorp Inc. |Online Education (courses)|writer of The Condom Song rhiggins@cybercorp.net | gymv@cybercorp.net | doc@cybercorp.net http://www.cybercorp.net | www.cybercorp.net/gymv | www.cybercorp.net/condom From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 07:36:13 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA22558 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hud.gov (hudgate.hud.gov [198.200.153.4]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA22454 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Jean_Scarr@hud.gov Received: by hud.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from hudsmtphq.hud.gov(170.97.1.9) by hudgate via smap (V1.0mjr) Received: from cc:Mail by hudsmtphq.hud.gov Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:40:15 EST Message-Id: <9605078341.AA834169215@hudsmtphq.hud.gov> To: "Dr. Rob Higgins" , list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk how do I get off this list? thanks..... From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 08:05:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA25312 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA25304 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khyri by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:48:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199606071448.HAA25016@idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@206.16.238.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: Meta lists (prev: I'd like to help you out) Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 10:40 AM 6/7/96 EST, Jean_Scarr@hud.gov wrote: > how do I get off this list? thanks..... D'oh! /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 302,495th person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Fri Jun 7 19:35:51 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA29391 for list-managers-outgoing; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cybercorp.net (cybercorp.net [205.208.64.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA29381 for ; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rhiggins@localhost) by cybercorp.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) id WAA31976; Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:32 -0400 Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:25:31 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dr. Rob Higgins" To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: ?? List Moderators' roles as a dissertation topic (fwd) Message-ID: Organization: CyberCorp Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:46:40 -0400 From: Mauri Collins To: e-conf@chatsubo.com Subject: ?? List Moderators' roles as a dissertation topic Please forward this to any list moderators you know.... Several years ago Zane Berge and I did some exploratory research on how list owners/moderators define and experience their multiple roles. I have been talking with my dissertation advisor about extending that preliminary research into a dissertation and doing some 'thick, rich description' (gathered via an initial survey with follow up interviews). He expressed concern that I would be able to find enough subjects...and expressed some doubt that the research (survey and interviews) could be done online. So i said "I'll go ask!" :-) I think the topic is important because, while there is a fair amount in the literature now about teaching online...the "moderator" role(s) are to my mind, critically important and not necessarily exactly part of the "teaching" or "pedagogy"...and I haven't seen them teased out and closely examined, in the words and experiences of those actually DOING the job. So I thought I would ask those who are list moderators and functioning in that *role*, rather than as online teachers, to share their thoughts about what their roles are and the "meaning" they make of them. Data gathering would occur in the Fall. I would prefer to use both an online (or mailed) survey instrument and online interview/dialog so this may require several hours or more spread over several weeks. This would depend on the preferences of those who agree to participate. I could mail questions (snail mail or email) or put up a webpage...and interviews could be conducted online, f2f (where possible) or over the phone (as long as I could record the conversation for further study) My proposal will have to go through "human subjects" so all the usual disclaimers about confidentiality and doing no harm would be strictly adheared to. I am asking for volunteers who consider themselves 'list moderators' and who have been so for 6 months or so (so they have a good sense of who they are and what they do as a moderator). In my mind (as a list owner/moderator) the definition spans those who just own and 'watch over' a list (as I do with sister-share) to receiving and posting all messages to a list, with commentary sometimes...as I do with deos-l and i am sure there are many levels in between. I have started collecting literature and some of it is linked to the Moderator's Home Page (under construction and welcoming suggestions) http://cac.psu.edu/~mauri/moderators.html If you would be interested in participating in such dissertation research in Fall 1996, or have comments on my topic, or any other questions or comments, please let me know at mauri@cac.psu.edu. Thank you all mauri - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ms mauri p. collins ma /\\//\ Calder Square Box 10002 Internet: mauri@cac.psu.edu > () < State College Voice (814)238-3823 \/()\/ PA 16805, USA URL: http://cac.psu.edu/~mauri/mauri.html ------- End of Forwarded Message From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 06:50:42 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA04738 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA04712 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 06:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA11711 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:33:03 +1000 (EST) Received: from dialup-a2-4.Melbourne.netspace.net.au (dialup-a2-4.Melbourne.netspace.net.au [203.17.100.4]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA20283 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:33:20 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have that could be looked for in a filter? From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 08:05:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA07216 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.netset.com (zeus.netset.com [205.133.220.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id HAA07209 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [205.133.220.111] (cmh-ppp11.netset.com [205.133.220.111]) by zeus.netset.com (8.7.5/NetSet-v.1.5) with SMTP id KAA04824; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) Subject: Online interviews Cc: mauri@cac.psu.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >From: Mauri Collins >I have been talking with my dissertation advisor about extending that >preliminary research into a dissertation and doing some 'thick, rich >description' (gathered via an initial survey with follow up >interviews). He expressed concern that I would be able to find enough >subjects...and expressed some doubt that the research (survey and >interviews) could be done online. So i said "I'll go ask!" :-) Although this doesn't seem to be the main thrust of your message, I will comment on this from my experience. I completed my Master's thesis (1994, VA Tech) based on data gathered from two internet mailing lists. Although it was tough convincing my advisors that such a survey could work... they did approve my proposal. I had no problem gathering subjects. In my case (writing about adoption) I found many people who wished to give my survey to non-internet folks (which I did not allow), or to forward it on to various newsgroups, etc. (which did happen, despite my request to the contrary). A few things to keep in mind (and for list-managers to think about should they be approached with such a request): 1. Get permission of the list-owner to post your survey to his/her list. It is *very* helpful to be able to say "John Smith, manager of XXX list, has given me permission to ask list members for assistance with this project." It really cuts down on the flames/spams/etc. Too, the list owner can get you membership numbers that will help to determine response rate (if that is of interest to you), demographic information, and the info about the list that you will need for your methods section. 2. Set up a seperate account for your research, and use this account for nothing but your research! In addition to my personal and work accounts, I had my university set up another account called thesis@domain.edu so that all of the responses to my survey could be easily, and accurately, seperated from more general mail. If you are subscribed to any of the lists to which you will send your survey you will, of course, need the list owner to add that account to the membership roster (at least for the duration of your project). 3. There really is some good social science research concerning internet interviews/surveys. If you can't find references on your own, email me and I'll find something for you. >If you would be interested in participating in such dissertation >research in Fall 1996, or have comments on my topic, or any other >questions or comments, please let me know at mauri@cac.psu.edu. You can count me in. Dana BTW: as a side note... I'd be interested in knowing the policy of other list managers IRT surveys, etc. At AIML, we allow this but request that people contact the managers before sending such requests to the list. Dana Katherine Kressierer, cubabe@netset.com Co-Manager, Adoptees' Internet Mailing List AIML URL: http://www.webreflection.com/aiml/ Dana's URL: http://www.webreflection.com/staff/dkress/ I'm so glad that you came tonight. I sometimes worry that no one will show up, and without you, there would be little point in my being here. - Jane Wagner From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 09:25:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA09421 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA09386 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: helmant@ozemail.com.au (Dr.Tony Helman) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 09:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting >in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on >holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. > I can't say anything about the holiday messages beyond the fact that I immediately delete anybody from lists I maintain the first time I get a holidy/vacation messages with a note to them to resubscribe when they're back or have fixed their mailer so that I don't get the messages. My solution to preventing loops on the list is to maintain a dbm database of Message-Id:s that have been sent to the list and reject any duplicates. I originally did this by writing a simple perl script, chkmsgid, that could be invoked within a .deliver script and it returned the count of occurrences of that Message-Id: in the list. We're using majordomo now so I've incorporated this test directly in resend. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 13:35:48 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA20477 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bdt.bdt.com (bdt.com [140.174.173.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA20463 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bdt.bdt.com (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1 #29.6) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 13:23 PDT Received: from noident@philw.dial-up.bdt.com(204.188.159.99) by bdt via smap (V1.3bdt) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960608134000.094f5b50@bdt.com> X-Sender: philw@bdt.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: Phil Wolff Subject: GUI for ListServ or Majordomo? Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Have you seen a list server Graphical User Interface? Web based? Java based? Win95/NT? X-Windows? That works? I'm at the point where I want to handoff some duties to less-skilled folks, and I can't help but think that a dialog box approach would make the learning curve shorter and some tasks faster. We are running mail services on Solaris and clients on Solaris and Win32. ___________ Phil Wolff, Web Programs, LSI Logic, philw@lsil.com From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 14:20:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA22443 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ilinx.ilinx.com ([204.174.213.24]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA22436 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ilinx.ilinx.com (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.1) Message-Id: From: brian@ilinx.ilinx.com (Brian J. Murrell) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:17:04 -0700 (PDT) To: adam@Tripcom.COM Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com Reply-To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname In-Reply-To: <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.2.1-960405-386 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk from the quill of Adam Horwitz on scroll <199606041807.NAA29243@vger.Tripcom.COM> > I'm having a problem with some users replying to the "From" address of > "owner-listname" instead of the list posting address of "listname". So > far as I know my headers (example provided below) are correct. I think > some (all?) of the users having this problem are using Microsoft Mail, > which would appear to ignore the "reply-to" address. Some of the list > users insist I "fix" Majordomo so the "From" address is "listname". It's worse than just ignoring Reply-To: headers. MS-Mail replys to the envelope sender instead of the message sender!! I would tell the list users that their choice of mailer is not good. Explain to them exactly what is wrong with the mailer and if they want to complain to somebody they should complain to MS. I, under no circumstances, would change the envelope sender (From - with no colon). If you do change it, then your list recipients will get all of the bounces that should come to the list owner. b. -- Brian J. Murrell brian@ilinx.com InterLinx Support Services, Inc. brian@wimsey.com North Vancouver, B.C. 604 983 UNIX Platform and Brand Independent UNIX Support - R3.2 - R4 - BSD From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 14:35:45 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA23664 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camco.celestial.com (camco.celestial.com [192.136.111.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id OAA23634 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by camco.celestial.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) Message-Id: From: bill@celestial.com (Bill Campbell) Subject: Re: Users replying to owner-listname To: brian@ilinx.bctel.net Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Cc: adam@Tripcom.COM, list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: from "Brian J. Murrell" at Jun 8, 96 02:17:04 pm Reply-To: bill@Celestial.COM Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA 98040 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > >from the quill of Adam Horwitz on scroll >It's worse than just ignoring Reply-To: headers. MS-Mail replys to the >envelope sender instead of the message sender!! > I manage several lists that include engineers from Microsoft, and I take delight in replying to their posts telling them that their brain-dead mailer screwed up again. One thing that I can't figure though is that none of our lists Reply-To: the list, but leave the original sender's headers intact -- and the Microsofty's posts still come to the list owner. Some wag commented that Microsoft wanted to write every line of code for NT to make sure that they owned it all -- and to make sure that it didn't accidentally adhere to any existing standards. Bill -- INTERNET: bill@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc. UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 2835 82nd Avenue S.E. S-100 FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation. -- Johnny Hart From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 15:20:41 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id PAA25936 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from f-body.org (LT1.udweb.com [204.33.245.6]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id PAA25922 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from robg@localhost) by f-body.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00251; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:21:10 -0700 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 15:21:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Glover To: "Dr.Tony Helman" cc: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Holiday messages In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Sat, 8 Jun 1996, Dr.Tony Helman wrote: > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. > > Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have > that could be looked for in a filter? >From somewhat of a novice standpoint, I'd suggest disallowing posts to go to the list from any account with "Postmaster" or "Root" in it... Rob From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 19:51:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id TAA05848 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wubios.wustl.edu (wubios.wustl.edu [128.252.117.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id TAA05840 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 19:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from phil@localhost) by wubios.wustl.edu (8.6.10/8.6.9) id VAA26963; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:47:49 -0500 From: "J. Philip Miller" Message-Id: <199606090247.VAA26963@wubios.wustl.edu> Subject: Online interviews (fwd) To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 21:47:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk cubabe@netset.com (Dana Katherine Kressierer) wrote: > BTW: as a side note... I'd be interested in knowing the policy > of other list managers IRT surveys, etc. At AIML, we allow > this but request that people contact the managers before sending > such requests to the list. On sci.med.aids (aids@wubios.wustl.edu), gerinet and health-l we require that the originator has gone through the appropriate human studies approval proccess at their institution. Only on sci.med.aids which is moderated can this be enforced. -phil -- J. Philip Miller, Professor, Division of Biostatistics, Box 8067 Washington University Medical School, St. Louis MO 63110 phil@wubios.WUstl.edu - (314) 362-3617 [362-2693(FAX)] http://www.biostat.wustl.edu/~phil From list-managers-owner Sat Jun 8 21:05:46 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id UAA08429 for list-managers-outgoing; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id UAA08420 for ; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 20:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts66-09.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.137.218]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id XAA22801; Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606090343.XAA22801@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "J. Philip Miller" From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Online interviews (fwd) Cc: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 09:47 PM 08/06/96 -0500, Dr. J. Philip Miller wrote: >On sci.med.aids (aids@wubios.wustl.edu), gerinet and health-l we require that >the originator has gone through the appropriate human studies approval >proccess at their institution. Only on sci.med.aids which is moderated can >this be enforced. Hmmm. "The appropriate human studies approval process" eh? "Subjects' informed consent protocols"? Indeed... I wonder if I could use those as a reason for cutting down on some of the survey junk that floods through? DLJ Moderator, sci.econ.research :-) From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 14:06:14 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id NAA22821 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM (tymix.tymnet.com [131.146.2.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id NAA22814 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) Received: from tardis Received: by tardis.tymnet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 13:56:37 PDT From: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Message-Id: <9606102056.AA12285@tardis.tymnet.com> To: list-managers-digest@GreatCircle.COM Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. If any of your members are on UNIX systems, you're out of luck, since there is no standard for vacation messages. The program /usr/ucb/vacation creates a file called ~/.vacation.msg which the user can edit, and they can put in it anything they please. A typical message is: Subject: away from my mail I will be out of the office until 14-Jun-96. Your mail regarding "$SUBJECT" will be read when I return. However, there is no guarentee that the user will put "away" or "when I return" in this message. And since the program is invoked via '\user,"/usr/ucb/vacation user"' in their .forward file, the reply message will show up as being from that user, not Postmaster or root. -Joe From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 21:20:54 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id VAA07927 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.oulu.fi (lists.oulu.fi [130.231.241.85]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id VAA07874 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (mhotti@localhost) by lists.oulu.fi (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA12184 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:03:08 +0300 Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:03:08 +0300 (EET DST) From: Marko Hotti To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Subject: search engines for mailing list archives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Hi! I've been archiving couple of my special interest mailing lists in digest format using the Majordomo 1.94 software. There are over 150 MB of material there right now. The digests are indexed based on subject lines already (makeindex.pl) but I'd like to extend this service further so that my subscribers could make random searches from the digest resources using either a web interface or some kind of telnettable service. Does anyone of you utilize WAIS? Would it be suitable for this purpose and is it safe as to security? Any other suggestions - a Perl script perhaps? With regards, Marko Hotti -- Marko Hotti Faculty of Medicine University of Oulu, FINLAND Email: Marko.Hotti@oulu.fi http://raita.oulu.fi/~mhotti/ Home: +358 81 530 4268 System Administrator of 'lists.oulu.fi' Work: +358 40 552 8415 Tervontie 4 C 11, FIN-90230 OULU From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 22:05:49 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA13778 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id WAA13770 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA13604; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> To: helmant@ozemail.com.au CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: "Dr.Tony Helman"'s message of Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 <2.2.16.19960608152151.235f23da@203.2.192.124> Subject: Holiday messages Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:34:07 -1000 From: "Dr.Tony Helman" In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. Has anyone seen these messages and what common characteristics do they have that could be looked for in a filter? This reply only applies to vacation messages generated on UNIX systems. Tony, I use vacation messages frequently (if you mail to me, you'll see mine :). I have to when I fall behind on my mail. I'm way behind now because my mom died in April and ... well, the whys should be obvious. I've also used them when travelling and moving. I have it set up to send out to anyone sending mail to cnorman@ucsd.edu or immune-request@weber.ucsd.edu. I use them as an instant "help" message for my list too (very very useful and keeps nasty user messages way way down--also keeps away those "why aren't you a machine that responds immediately 24 hours a day?" letters for those of you who run manual lists like me). There is a standard format provided when one sets up the vacation message. But, Joe is right, the user can edit it, so there will be no keywords that will always work. Though searching for "vacation" will catch most of them. Here's the header of mine: From: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu (Cyndi Norman) Subject: Responses from Cyndi are delayed Delivered-By-The-Graces-Of: The Vacation Program Precedence: bulk Of course, the from and subject lines are customized. I left the other two lines as is. Maybe bulk messges are a good thing to screen out anyway, but don't quote me. But I wonder why your'e having the problem in the first place. I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. My vacation program, and all those I've seen, only return to people who mail directly to the user (or in my case, my address or my immune-request alias, but only because I set it that way on purpose). I hope this is helpful. Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Mon Jun 10 23:36:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA19896 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.inforamp.net (Mail.InfoRamp.Net [204.191.136.66]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA19888 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Widgette (ts34-10.tor.iSTAR.ca [204.191.140.90]) by mail.inforamp.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id CAA05373 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 02:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199606110622.CAA05373@mail.inforamp.net> X-Sender: dlj@inforamp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM From: David Lloyd-Jones Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk In a typical exchange, C. Norman wrote: > From: "Dr.Tony Helman" > In trying to construct a filter to prevent vicious loops, I am interesting > in knowing what form and wording are seen when a list member who has gone on > holidays has all messages replied to with a message that they are away. >This reply only applies to vacation messages generated on UNIX systems. >Tony, I use vacation messages frequently (if you mail to me, you'll see >mine :). etc. etc. I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than talking to the people doing all these dumb things! This is certainly the right way of going about things if you want to run a whole lot of lists -- but then why would anybody want to run a whole lot of lists? Let the people who are interested in the material run the lists, fer goshsakes. * * * I see I've fallen into the tekkie style of calling people "users" above. Looks like I'm going native. :-) A few years ago I took a Unix course at the local university, and by chance I often had a guy known to be the best programmer around in the seat immediately to my left. Big guy with a beard, collar-long hair, forester's uniform of big boots and hairy shirt, the whole Oregon/Boulder schtick. He would sit there for ninety minutes at a stretch staring fixedly at the lecturer, grinding his teeth, and muttering "Goddamn users, Goddam users" in a steady growl throughout the lecture. I only once interrupted him to ask whether the network wasn't there to look after the users' needs. He looked up at me from his prehensile crouch and said "Goddam users. Get in the way of research" and then went back to his growling. I'm not making this stuff up. Honest. -dlj. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 00:05:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id XAA20828 for list-managers-outgoing; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from weber.ucsd.edu (weber.ucsd.edu [132.239.147.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id XAA20821 for ; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:53:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cnorman@localhost) by weber.ucsd.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21583; Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 23:51:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman Message-Id: <199606110651.XAA21583@weber.ucsd.edu> To: helmant@ozemail.com.au CC: list-managers@GreatCircle.COM, cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu In-reply-to: Cyndi Norman's message of Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> Subject: Holiday messages Reply-to: cnorman@weber.ucsd.edu Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Whoops! following up on my own post: Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 21:59:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Cyndi Norman But I wonder why your'e having the problem in the first place. I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. My vacation program, and all those I've seen, only return to people who mail directly to the user (or in my case, my address or my immune-request alias, but only because I set it that way on purpose). Cyndi, you're a moron, and not only that but you're wrong! :-) (gotta get my flame quotionant for the day). A vacation message will sometimes get sent to the list-owner as if it were a bounce. But they don't seem to get sent all the time; I rarely get them on my list, and then only once (probably cause the .vacation.db file keeps the list-owener as the address on record (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one resets the program)). But it seems to occur less frequently than that anyway. The best way to tell is to ask the owner of this very list. My vacation message is turned on and I reset it every few days (either because I've changed it or to weed out repeat mailers). Have you recieved my vacation message as a bounce? Cyndi __________________________________________________________________________ "There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe." (ST:TNG) cnorman@ucsd.edu ___________________________________________ http://weber.ucsd.edu/~cnorman From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:20:53 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA18858 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miso.wwa.com (miso.wwa.com [198.49.174.33]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA18850 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by miso.wwa.com (Smail3.1.29.1 #2) Message-Id: From: dattier@wwa.com (David W. Tamkin) Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: jms@tardis.Tymnet.COM (Joe Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Cc: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-Reply-To: <9606102056.AA12285@tardis.tymnet.com> from "Joe Smith" at Jun 10, 96 01:56:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk Joe Smith wrote, | If any of your members are on UNIX systems, you're out of luck, since there | is no standard for vacation messages. The program /usr/ucb/vacation creates | a file called ~/.vacation.msg which the user can edit, and they can put in it | anything they please. ... [T]here is no guarentee that the user will put | "away" or "when I return" in this message. True, there is no guaranteed way to recognize a vacation message by its text. But vacation programs are not supposed to respond to incoming mail that fits even one of the following categories: 1. has "bulk", "junk", or "list" precedence; 2. has "-request", "owner-", or "-owner" [or for that matter, "daemon" or "root" or "postmaster"] in the From_ line, the Sender: header, the From: header, the Resent-Sender: header, or the Resent-From: header; or 3. does not specify the recipient's address in a To:, Resent-To:, Cc:, or Resent-Cc: header. Mail from lists should certainly meet #3 if not also #2 and #1. If a list member's vacation program reacts to mail from the list, then the member has misconfigured his or her vacation routines or is using a badly broken vacation program. From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:36:12 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA19787 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet16.ozemail.com.au (oznet16.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.109]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id FAA19771 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oznet02.ozemail.com.au (oznet02.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.124]) by oznet16.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA08315 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:26:29 +1000 (EST) Received: from slmel4p31.ozemail.com.au (slmel4p31.ozemail.com.au [203.15.163.119]) by oznet02.ozemail.com.au (8.7.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA21649 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:26:50 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19960611141519.0c5f7ec2@203.2.192.124> X-Sender: helmant@203.2.192.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:27:35 -1000 To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM From: "Dr.Tony Helman" Subject: Vacation messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have > from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than > talking to the people doing all these dumb things! This might be Not so much that (and my list is only 150 people) as the rapidity with which a vicious loop of bouncing email can fill up your in-tray, way before you get the chance to have a quiet chat with the originator (who is presumably on vacation anyway!). Cyndi wrote: > (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one resets the program) This is interesting. Do you mean these vacation programs keep a record of who they have posted to regardless of what is in the in-coming email? That would of course solve the entire problem, because then there would be no vicious loops. Tony Helman From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 05:51:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id FAA20458 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id FAA20443 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 05:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606111237.AA10482@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Re: Vacation messages To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:37:54 -0300 (ADT) In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960611141519.0c5f7ec2@203.2.192.124> from "Dr.Tony Helman" at Jun 11, 96 10:27:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >Cyndi wrote: >> (vacation messages only send to the same person once until one >resets the program) > >This is interesting. Do you mean these vacation programs keep a record of >who they have posted to regardless of what is in the in-coming email? That >would of course solve the entire problem, because then there would be no >vicious loops. Exactly. The vacation program (this is the Unix one) maintains a data base, and usually the message says that you should get only one copy. However there exist programs for other platforms that might not have this feature. -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 06:51:02 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id GAA27192 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pet.bgsm.edu (ncbapsun2.pet.bgsm.edu [152.11.32.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id GAA27184 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 06:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from cathy@localhost) by pet.bgsm.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) id JAA15109 for list-managers@GreatCircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:39:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Cathy Eades Message-Id: <199606111339.JAA15109@pet.bgsm.edu> To: list-managers@GreatCircle.com Subject: re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, David Lloyd-Jones wrote: >I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have >from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than >talking to the people doing all these dumb things! I have a friend who is an experimental psychologist turned computer-programmer. His comment on situations like the "vacation message" problem is that "The rat is always right". In other words, users will tend to do what is to them the most obvious thing. Sometimes, even constant badgering will not overcome the tendency to do the most obvious thing. In this case, if a user has a facility to send vacation messages, sometimes the most obvious thing to do is to use it. The trick in "data processing" (an old-fashioned term that has unfortunately lost it's former generality) is to make the obvious thing the right thing, or at least not a terrible thing. Thus the concern to make sending vacation messages not be a terrible burden for the rest of the list participants. -cathy eades, data-processor (in the old-fashioned sense) From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 07:36:01 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id HAA02855 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from biome.bio.dfo.ca (biome.BIO.dfo.ca [142.2.20.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id HAA02845 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 07:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by biome.bio.dfo.ca (931110.SGI/931108.SGI.ANONFTP) From: bill@biome.bio.dfo.ca (Bill Silvert) Message-Id: <9606111416.AA10934@biome.bio.dfo.ca> Subject: Vacation Programs To: List-Managers@GreatCircle.COM Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:16:29 -0300 (ADT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk There are several vacation programs, but I just checked the manual entry for the SGI version and noted the following, which may be of some help to list managers, since by appropriate list configuration (e.g., including a ``Precedence: bulk'' header) one may be able to suppress automatic replies. "...vacation will send an automatic reply to the sender of the incoming mail message provided that all of the following are true: 1. userid (or an alias supplied using the -a option) is part of either the ``To:'' or ``Cc:'' headers of the mail. 2. No automatic reply has been sent to the sender within the configured interval days. (See the -i and -r flags above.) 3. The sender of the incoming message is not ``???-REQUEST'', ``Postmaster'', ``UUCP'', ``MAILER'', or ``MAILER-DAEMON'' (where case doesn't matter). 4. No ``Precedence: bulk'' or ``Precedence: junk'' line is included in headers of the incoming mail message." -- Bill Silvert, Habitat Ecology Section, Bedford Institute of Oceanography, P. O. Box 1006, Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CANADA B2Y 4A2, Tel. (902)426-1577 HED runs a WWW server at URL=http://hed.bio.dfo.ca Fax (902)426-7827 From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 08:53:32 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id IAA10721 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id IAA10714 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lazlo@localhost) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id JAA21184 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:44:23 -0600 Message-Id: <199606111544.JAA21184@kitsune.swcp.com> Subject: Re: Holiday messages To: list-managers@greatcircle.com (lm) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:44:22 -0600 (MDT) From: "Lazlo Nibble" X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25 PGP3 *ALPHA*] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk > I am struck by the _distance_ that most people on this list seem to have > from their users. You always think about rewiring the machine rather than > talking to the people doing all these dumb things! I've found that it's much easier on my time and sanity to deal with problems like this in one place (the software) than convince people to change their behavior. If I tell the computer to stop doing something, it'll actually stop doing it *without* me having to threaten to come over to its house with a police truncheon. -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 09:36:15 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id JAA14597 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from idyllmtn.com (ayla.idyllmtn.com [206.16.238.1]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id JAA14581 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from khyri by idyllmtn.com (8.6.8/Idyllmtn) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:23:19 -0700 Message-Id: <199606111623.JAA01117@idyllmtn.com> X-Sender: kynn@206.16.238.1 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marko Hotti , list-managers@greatcircle.com From: Kynn Bartlett Subject: Re: search engines for mailing list archives Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk At 07:03 AM 6/11/96 +0300, Marko Hotti wrote: >Does anyone of you utilize WAIS? Would it be suitable for this purpose and >is it safe as to security? Any other suggestions - a Perl script perhaps? I've recently installed the Architext program and used it to index my hypermail mailing list archives. You can find it at the Excite site. (http://www.excite.com/) /\ /\ /\ /\ Kynn Bartlett / kynn@idyllmtn.com / \ / \/ \ / \ Idyll Mountain Internet / \ //\ /\ \ / \ '_| _` // \/ \__\ '_| _` You are the 302,495th person to read this .sig From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 15:06:21 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id OAA16435 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hades.wvs.com (hades.wvs.com [204.247.81.10]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with ESMTP id OAA16368 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sol.wvs.com (sol.wvs.com [204.247.80.10]) by hades.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09813 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zorch.sf-bay.org (Uzorch@localhost) by sol.wvs.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with UUCP id OAA15905 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sol.wvs.com: Uzorch set sender to zorch.sf-bay.org!news using -f Received: (from news@localhost) by zorch.sf-bay.org (8.6.11/8.6.9) id OAA29730 for list-managers@greatcircle.com; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:50:35 -0700 Newsgroups: zorch.lists.list-managers Path: zorch.sf-bay.org!scott From: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org (Scott Hazen Mueller) Subject: Re: Holiday messages Distribution: zorch Reply-To: scott@zorch.sf-bay.org Organization: At Home; Salida, CA Message-ID: References: <199606110459.VAA13604@weber.ucsd.edu> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost.sf-bay.org Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:50:33 GMT Apparently-To: list-managers@greatcircle.com Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk >I have never ever seen a vacation message get posted to a list. Nor have I >heard of one sending to the poster when the vacation user is on the list. The vacation program at my former employer's site was notorious for sending trash responses to mailing lists or to submitters. This despite repeated attempts at user education on my part. I finally had to escalate it all of the way up to the divisional VP level, and it hadn't been fixed as of the time I left. This situation combined all of the well-known no-nos: losing the envelope FROM, mixing up header From:, Sender and Reply-To, etc. Once the gateway was done munching the return information, the 'agent' program sent one response for every message received. No checking for recipient on the To line, no looking at Precedence/Priority headers (they were trashed by the gateway, you see), and no database of addresses ala UNIX 'vacation'. So, if you have a lastname_firstname@tandem.com address on your mailing list, beware! You may be getting set up for list-managers hell. My advice to irate list-managers was to nuke the Tandem addressee and let them resubscribe when they got back. -- Scott Hazen Mueller | scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG or tandem!zorch!scott From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 22:36:00 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA16341 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA16318 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606120532.WAA16318@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:29:33 EDT Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk With regard to vacation notices and mailing lists, we now have the specifications on the standards track for Delivery Status Notifications, which make it easy for mailing list managers to process bounce messages automatically. Also, the work in the IETF on Message Disposition Notifications (aka read receipts) is moving along. What do list managers think about the idea of defining some standards for vacation notices and perhaps change of address notices? If so, what form should such standards take? Is it enough to mark such messages in such a way that they could reliably be transfered to a list owner for manual inspection, but not specifically identified in a machine processable way? Or is it important to define formats for such messages that can be processed fully automatically? From list-managers-owner Tue Jun 11 22:50:59 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id WAA16769 for list-managers-outgoing; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CU.NIH.GOV (cu.nih.gov [128.231.64.112]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id WAA16740 for ; Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606120536.WAA16740@miles.greatcircle.com> To: list-managers@greatcircle.com From: "Roger Fajman" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 01:34:13 EDT Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk I've being having increasing problems with vacation messages generated by Groupwise systems. They don't seem to use any of the heuristics mentioned here. In particular, they don't respond only once to each address -- they respond to every message. Usually LISTSERV's loop detector catches the loops quickly, but occasionally it doesn't work. The loops with LISTSERV's command processor are the ones that sometimes don't get caught. From list-managers-owner Wed Jun 12 02:50:56 1996 Received: (majordom@localhost) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.1-lists/Lists-960417-1) id CAA28232 for list-managers-outgoing; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by miles.greatcircle.com (8.7.4/Miles-951221-1) with SMTP id CAA28175 for ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mne.ifi.uio.no (mne.ifi.uio.no [129.240.70.5]) by ifi.uio.no with ESMTP (8.6.11/ifi2.4) From: Kjetil Torgrim Homme Received: (from kjetilho@localhost) by mne.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:42:31 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 11:42:31 +0200 Message-Id: <199606120942.19545.mne.ifi.uio.no@ifi.uio.no> To: RAF@CU.NIH.GOV CC: list-managers@greatcircle.com In-reply-to: <199606120532.WAA16318@miles.greatcircle.com> (RAF@CU.NIH.GOV) Subject: Re: Holiday messages Sender: list-managers-owner@GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk [Roger Fajman] | Is it enough to mark such messages in such a way that they could | reliably be transfered to a list owner for manual inspection, but | not specifically identified in a machine processable way? Or is it | important to define formats for such messages that can be | processed fully automatically? These two goals need not contradict eachother. Look at Usenet newgroup messages: They are identified by a special header Control: newgroup alt.music.velvet-belly and amidst often considerable prose in the body, you'll find: For your newsgroups file: alt.music.velvet-belly Discussion on the band Velvet Belly. The problem is finding a replacement for the Control header, since we can't be sure it survives all gateways. Looking to RFC1894 (has it entered standards track yet?) seems natural, it uses MIME so it should be have a fair chance of getting through the gateways intact. Then it's sufficient to add a report-type: "message/address-change" with this in body: Old address: kjetilho@mnemosyne.uio.no New address: Kjetil T Homme Valid from: 1996-01-01 00:00 UT Any commentary for human readers can be added in a text/plain part. A report-type for vacation can be be similarily contructed, but since it seems like existing vacation reply programs are so needlessly faulty today, with the ex